Podcasts about melissa you

What does sofrito—a base of herbs and spices used in Puerto Rican cooking—have to do with reimagining business, food security, and conveying a history lesson about a rich and sometimes complex culture? For today's guest, it's everything. If you've ever wondered how to weave your culture, creativity, and calling into one powerful movement... then this episode is the recipe you've been looking for. In this episode, you will hear:   Food has a cultural foundation passed through generations. Cultural identity can be preserved and taught through everyday meals. How to make the best sofrito if you don't have time to cook. Food is more than just food – it's heritage, intention, and a story. The story of the Puerto Rican pasteles is shared. Food choices are power moves, shaping local or global economies. Imagination makes it possible to wear multiple hats and still stay rooted in purpose. You don't need permission to do things differently, just the will and a plan. This episode is brought to you by Fertile Imagination: A Guide for Stretching Every Mom's Superpower for Maximum Impact by Melissa Llarena Audible   Audio Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CY9BZH9W/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0   Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CK2ZSMLB   Hardcover: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0D5B64347/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0   Or, download a free chapter at fertileideas.com       About Crystal Diaz   Crystal Díaz has spent nearly two decades at the intersection of food, marketing, and cultural advocacy. She co-founded PRoduce, Puerto Rico's digital marketplace for locally grown food. Crystal is also the force behind El Pretexto, the island's first culinary farm lodge, where food and imagination meet 2,600 feet above sea level. A committed advocate for food security, she collaborates with Espacios Abiertos to advance agricultural policy. Crystal holds two master's degrees, including one in Food Studies from NYU. She's been recognized by Fast Company and El Nuevo Día for her creative leadership and impact in the local food movement. Quotes that can change your perspective:  “If you really want to learn about something and you're obsessed about it, there's always ways to learn, to make it happen.” – Crystal Díaz   “With every single meal that we do, with every single snack, everything that we eat, you are impacting economies. And if you want to support your local communities and you want to see them, everybody having a better life, you might want to spend that dollar closer home and making sure that all of the ingredients that are on that food are closer to home so that money stays closer to home.” – Crystal Díaz   “Sofrito is very personal. You know? It's part of how your family has done it… but also learn that there is a lot of history into it. It's not something that we do because we do it. There is a lot of history to it.” – Crystal Díaz   “We are on a little island. We don't have that much territorial extension, so we can't think about our agriculture as other countries that have large extensions of terrains and flats and stuff like that. We need to think about it differently.” – Crystal Díaz   “Puerto Rican food is full of history, is complex enough, is flavorful enough, and varied… so I can pull something like this [a culinary farm lodge] up in Puerto Rico.” – Crystal Díaz SHARE this episode with fellow food lovers, cultural storytellers, and moms on a mission to raise rooted kids. Crystal's insights on local food, identity, and imagination will inspire anyone looking to nourish their family and community from the inside out. Let's keep our culture alive—one pastel, one sofrito, and one big idea at a time. Supporting Resources:   Website: https://www.elpretextopr.com  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elpretextopr  Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/@elpretextopr/ Subscribe and Review   Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.    I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms. About Fertile Imagination   You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There's flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It's time to see and seize what's beyond your gaze. Let's bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There's only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what's been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It's like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it's alert!    In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!  Advance Praise    “You'll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator    “Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on…even after the kids are in bed.” —KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money    “This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX   TRANSCRIPT   00:00:00 Crystal: Come up with ideas to make it easier for food producers to produce more food because we are in a little island. We don't have that much territorial extension. So we can't think about our agriculture as other countries that have large extensions of terrains and flats and stuff like that. We need to think it differently.  00:00:25 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're gonna get to that next level in business, find the energy to keep going, and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood.  00:00:47 Melissa: Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out, and stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm gonna give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening.  00:01:17 Melissa: So what does sofrito, which is essentially a base of herbs and spices used in Puerto Rican cooking, have to do with reimagining business, food security, and passing along really critical history lessons. Well, for today's guest, it is everything. And if you've ever wondered how to weave your culture, creativity, and calling into one powerful movement, then this episode is the recipe you've been looking for.  00:01:49 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. This is your weekly podcast designed to inspire you to dream bigger in your business and your life. Also, to help you find the energy to keep going because how are you going to sustain what's necessary to be big and to keep your imagination flowing so that this way you could feel inspired, lit up like a Christmas tree or Hanukkah candles. I'm your host Melissa Llarena. 00:02:17 Melissa: I'm a mom of three high energy boys. No. They did not get their energy from me. Psyched. They did. I'm also a best selling author of Fertile Imagination and an imagination coach for mom founders who are reimagining what success and motherhood can look like on their own terms, and that's really important.  00:02:34 Melissa: Now, if you've ever stirred a pot of sofrito, you already know this. Right? You know that the blend of flavors tells a deeper story. It tells a story that sometimes has made its way across generations. It preserves a culture, and it does nourish more than just our baby's bellies.  00:02:56 Melissa: So today's guest, I am thrilled to invite Crystal Diaz. Now she's taken the same approach in terms of her business ventures. She's a foodpreneur, culture keeper, I love that, and community builder. She wears four hats and in today's episode we're gonna go through each of those hats. One of which is as the owner of El Pretexto, i.e. The Excuse, a culinary farm lodge in the countryside of Puerto Rico where she serves 100% locally sourced meals and lives her mission every day.  00:03:33 Melissa: She has lots of degrees and an MA in food studies from NYU, which is why if you're watching the video, you could see, I hope, my NYU t-shirt. Hit subscribe if you see it and you love it. Subscribe on YouTube. Hit follow on this podcast. 00:03:53 Melissa: A little bit more about Crystal. She was recognized by Fast Company as one of the most creative people in business in 2022 and was named one of El Nuevo Diaz women of the year in 2023. She's the real deal. In this episode, we're gonna explore how Crystal uses her imagination as her main ingredient, whether it's in terms of the way that she's carving away for Puerto Rico to have its own food centric cultural immersive experience or even by how she decided to commute to NYU from San Juan every single week, which was creative in and of itself, or even in terms of the way that she describes the depth of a very famous Puerto Rican dish.  00:04:43 Melissa: Oh, and side note, I actually have her real life best on the planet, sofrito recipe. My gosh, do not run away, For sure. Check out the sofrito recipe we articulated in this conversation. You're gonna walk away with yummy ideas for how to use your own imagination to nourish your business, your family, and community, and it's gonna be so important even if you're not working in food.  00:05:13 Melissa: So before we dig in, I would appreciate if you hit follow, if you're listening to this on iTunes. Why hit follow? Because every time someone hits follow on iTunes, it tells me that I need to bring more guests with stories like this to the podcast. And I get really excited and when a mom is excited, it is a very good day in her entire home. So go ahead, hit follow. You will absolutely get that dopamine hit that everybody needs or if you're watching this on YouTube, then hit subscribe. I would be so appreciative and again, I will do the dance of joy. Okay. So enjoy the conversation.  00:05:54 Melissa: Crystal Diaz, thank you so much for this conversation on the Mom Founder Imagination hub. We are delighted to have you here. Crystal, just to kind of set off the scenery, why don't you explain to us where you are in Puerto Rico? What's outside your windows? 00:06:10 Crystal: All right. Well, let's… our imagination hub in a car. We are in San Juan, and you drove forty five minutes south, up to the mountains. Now we are in Cayey. I am at El Pretexto, which is also my home, and we are overlooking… we're up in the mountains, 2,600 feet over sea level, overlooking the Caribbean Sea at the south, and all the mountains slowly winding down all the way to the coast. 00:06:43 Crystal: And you will have some crazy chickens surrounding you. In my patio while you are probably sipping a wine or a coffee, depending on the time of the day. Enjoying the view and, surrounded by trees, lush greenery all over the place. And there are gardens on your side, also as well. So you are surrounded definitely by nature and you feel at peace. That's where we are.  00:07:15 Melissa: Oh, okay. Cool. So let's bring that sense of peace to this conversation. I am excited because I'm sure any listener right now who is a mom, has a business, might feel a little frazzled now and again. But right now, for the next thirty minutes, this is a peaceful zone. We are in Puerto Rico right now. 00:07:37 Melissa: Okay. So, Crystal, now I'm gonna ask you an obvious question, as you just described what you are surrounded by in Puerto Rico. But you attended NYU, and I'm just kind of super curious. You could have stayed in New York, let's say. Right? You could have been like this chef at a restaurant in New York City, Michelin star, etcetera, etcetera. But you decided to return home. And so I'm just curious, like, what informed that decision?  00:08:13 Crystal: Well, you will be surprised with my answer because I never left home. I commuted every single week to New York. Coming on to the city, take my classes, back to my home. So for two years, I was traveling every week to New York for one day.  00:08:34 Melissa: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That is so surprising. Okay. So now I'm just curious here. Okay. So you were on a plane. So, usually people complain about their commute. Right? 00:08:48 Crystal: Uh-huh.  00:08:49 Melissa: They have this whole return to work aggravation. Here you are getting on a plane every single week to take courses at NYU. So then let me ask you this other question. So I know that it's a little off track, but now I'm just way curious. Why did it have to be NYU? That's quite the pull.  00:09:13 Crystal: Yeah. Well, my background is in marketing, and I have a BA in Marketing with a Minor in Advertising and Public Relations. Then I worked with a newspaper for fourteen years. So my background is all about business and marketing. Then I did a first master degree here in Puerto Rico, in the University of Puerto Rico, about cultural action and management. And then, I wanted – because at this point, I believe that I am not passionate anymore. I am kind of obsessed with food, and I guess we will get into that later. 00:09:58 Crystal: But, I wanted to learn the policy part of it. And in Puerto Rico, we don't have any program in any of the universities nor public or private, specifically about food, and way less food policies and advocacy and that type of perspective on the food system, which is what I wanted to learn. So that's why I ended up in New York. I decided to do this because it's a direct flight. So it's gonna be a three hours and a half flight going in, then the one hour in the A train until Westport. 00:10:49 Crystal: Even though I know it's intense, it was pretty straightforward. You don't have make a stop then take another plane. And I was studying and reading all my plane hours, so there's no excuse to not complete your assignments, I guess.  00:11:07 Melissa: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So, hey, that is 100% using your imagination because I think a lot of us, myself included, I wouldn't have considered that to be an option in my mind. I still don't. Right? It's gotta be a certain set of circumstances that make that a possibility. But, I love that now that's an idea that we just planted in someone's head. Right? If they really are obsessed. Right?  00:11:35 Crystal: And if you really want to learn about something and you're obsessed about it, there's always ways to learn, to make it happen. And to my point, New York is so expensive that I spend way less money in flight tickets than actually living there.  00:11:56 Melissa: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. So this is really interesting. Okay. So you could have stayed in New York, but you didn't even choose to stay in New York when you were taking classes at NYU. So now you have the whole, like… that's just so that's fascinating, Crystal. You really gobsmacked me right now with that piece of information.  00:12:18 Melissa: So along the same lines of using your imagination and thinking totally out of the box, let me ask you this one question. So, El Pretexto, of course, we'll go into what it is and all of that. But I also wanna understand because on your website, you say that you've traveled the world. Right? So you've seen all these different culinary experiences. And using your imagination and imagining where or how would you imagine Puerto Rico's cuisine fitting into the landscape of world gastro– I can't say the rest of that word, but I know it's a real word.  00:12:57 Crystal: Yes. Well, for me, I love to travel. I am a girl of no luxuries. Right? I don't care about purses or new shoes or jewelry. It's like I don't judge, but I don't care. So where I spend my money and my time, which I can't… money, you can recover it somehow, but time is just one time. You just have every minute that you have.  00:13:27 Crystal: And I like to spend those traveling and getting to know other cultures and exposing myself to other cultures. And I think that those travels have pushed me to understand and appreciate what we have back here at home and also understand the opportunities that we have back here at home. Not everybody is doing it perfectly, but you can definitely learn how it is done in other places. And I'm talking generally. Right? Depending on what you are interested.  00:14:01 Crystal: But you always learn of how the world do things in other places. So, I in my case, I love food and I try to expose myself, not only to eating in good restaurants or good food, but I love to go to markets. I even go to supermarkets every time I travel. I like to visit farms and I noticed, especially in Mexico, you can see this – Peru is developing this a lot and Italy has it all set. 00:14:40 Melissa: On lockdown.  00:14:41 Crystal: But you have these culinary experiences where you get to… expose to their cuisine, with a local chef and and you go to their farmers' markets and you get the whole country but with a special focus in food. And I was like, “You know what? Puerto Rican food is full of history, is complex enough, is flavorful enough, and varied so I can pull something like this up in Puerto Rico.” So that's how one of our offerings about the curated food experiences came to be because I was sure that somebody will have the curiosity to get to know Puerto Rico from its food.  00:15:33 Crystal: So that's how I got into there. And I think that because I am obsessed with the fact that Puerto Rico imports 90% of everything that we eat, I am then focused on cherish and enhance and share that 10% what it can be if we actually put a lot of effort into grow that 10% into 20%, let's say.  00:16:08 Melissa: That's interesting. So okay. So, I mean, I'm not cynical, but, in my opinion, I kind of believe that the person that controls food source kinda controls a lot. And that's not fantastic. And so I'm just wondering from a policy perspective and as you think about this share of stomach or however it's really considered, are you also part of that conversation too? Like, are you actively advocating for that too?  00:16:45 Crystal: Yes. Yes. I always say I have a couple of hats for all those also thinking that you only have to do one thing and one thing only. If you want to do one thing and one thing only, that's okay. But in my case, I am focused on food, but I try to deal with it from different perspectives. So I have four hats.  00:17:09 Crystal: And one of my hats, specifically works with food policy advocacy. And we try to understand the local food policies that are in place, understanding what programs work, what programs doesn't work, and then trying to make it as… to come up with ideas to make it easier for food producers to produce more food. 00:17:41 Crystal: Because we are in a little island. We don't have that much territorial extension, so we can't think about our agriculture as other countries that have large extensions of terrains and flats and stuff like that. We need to think it differently. And I am not against importation. We all have globalized diets, and we love olive oil, and we can't produce that in Puerto Rico. And we love wine, and we can't produce that in Puerto Rico.  00:18:16 Crystal: So it's not like, all the way 100%. That's not what I mean. But definitely, we should aim to have, let's say, half of our stomach-share full of food that is produced locally. Not only because of its nutritional value, but also because it means economic growth and development for our island and our local communities. So every dollar that you spend on food… somebody might be hearing us while they are eating something.  00:18:55 Crystal: So you imagine whatever you're eating right now, let's say it cost you $1. It depends on where the ingredients came from, that dollar went to that place. It depends on where it was processed, part of that dollar went to that place. And then if you bought it in the supermarket or if you bought it in Amazon, to who you gave that share of that dollar.  00:22 Crystal: So with every single meal that we do, with every single snack, everything that we eat, you are impacting economies. And if you want to support your local communities and you want to see them, everybody having a better life, you might want to spend that dollar closer home and making sure that all of the ingredients that are on that food are closer to home so that money stays closer to home. And that's how I see it. 00:19:58 Crystal: How do we make that that share of that dollar that we as consumers have the power to choose where it goes. And, by the way, there are some parts that we have the power and some part we don't have the power. I understand that. But how do we make an effort in whatever way we can to stay as close as possible to our home.  00:20:24 Melissa: So I think you said that… was that one out of your four hats? 00:20:28 Crystal: Yes.  00:20:29 Melissa: What are the other three?  00:20:30 Crystal: Well, El Pretexto, which is a bed and breakfast, is our Puerto Rico's first and only culinary farm lodge. This is my home, but I also welcome guests here. So El Pretexto is my second one. I'm the co-founder of PRoduct, which is a digital marketplace that connects local food producers with consumers directly. We're trying to shorten that food chain and make it easier and convenient to get local products on your home. We deliver island wide. So that's my third hat. And then I have a super small, digital, marketing agency with another partner, and it's all focused on food and beverage. So everything is about food but from different perspectives.  00:21:25 Melissa: Yeah. That's so interesting because it's almost like you have a little supply chain kind of going on. Right? It's like we've got a lot going on, but it's all related to eating, which is essential. But I think it's smart. I mean, you have your little niche there. Huge niche. We keep being hungry, so you're in a good spot, I would say.  00:21:49 Melissa: So let me understand this idea about food and how you saw it as an opportunity for Puerto Rico because it has a rich history. Right? So me as a mom, for example, I'm second generation from a Puerto Rican perspective. As a mom, for me, passing down culture is urgent. It's almost on the verge of extinction, I feel, because of where I am generationally. Like, I'm, quote, unquote, “amongst people that I know I'm not,” quote, unquote, “supposed to know Spanish.” I'm not, quote, unquote, “supposed to literally make rice and beans every day,” which by the way, I don't have to. But my goodness, my children really like their rice and beans. And I am so lazy. So that is all I make because I just want one pot.  00:22:40 Melissa: But anyway, so culture, food, that's the one way that I pass it along. Right? You are what you eat. So guess what? My kids are Puerto Rican and Cuban, at this stage. Yes. They have Dominican in them, but, hey, that's just my culinary preference. So tell me about this idea of culture, Puerto Rican culture. And I would be super curious if you could maybe choose an example of a cuisine or food and just kind of walk us through how that kind of expresses culture or maybe there's a story behind it that is unique to Puerto Rico.  00:23:20 Crystal: Well, for me and my mentor used to be doctor Cruz Miguel Ortiz Cuadra, which was the only food historian in Puerto Rico. He passed two years ago, but I learned so much from him and pretty much I was his daughter. He inherit me all his library, which I have here, home. And, so we discussed this a lot. And I think that we both shared that the ultimate dish that represents the Puerto Rican culture will be the pasteles. For those that doesn't know what a pastel is, it's a tamal like preparation. But the tamales are corn based and they use corn leaves to wrap it up. The pasteles puertorriqueños is made out of a dough made out of root vegetables mainly. 00:24:20 Crystal: It will have bananas and plantains that we got from our African in [inaudible]. It will have pumpkin, which were already with our Taino peoples here in America. It will have yautia, which also was here in Puerto Rico. And then, it will have some pork stew that was brought by the Spanish people. So you have in one dish our full heritage of the three cultures that have conformed the Puerto Rican-ness in just one dish.  00:25:01 Crystal: And then that works too will use, what is the ultimate base of flavor of the Puerto Rican cuisine, which is the sofrito. And the sofrito itself also is a blend of African, Spanish, and Taino ingredients, but it's a bricolage of flavors and smells that then go into the stew that then is used to make the pastel. And the pastel is also representative of the most authentic Puerto Rican soul because el pastel is wrapped as a gift.  00:25:40 Crystal: And if you were poor and there was a lot of poverty in Puerto Rico at some – we still have, but there used to be a lot of poverty back in the days. If you didn't have any resources, monetary resources to gift things, you will make pasteles with the things that are on your patio. You will have that growing up in your patio, in your garden, and then you will do pasteles, and you will gift that to your adult, kids, to your sisters, to your brothers.  00:26:13 Crystal: And so because it's – now we have technology, and now we can use food processors and so on. But back in the day, you had to grate that by hand. So if you have that gift, I am not only gifting you my talent and the products that I grow in my patio, but I'm also gifting my time. So it's a very meaningful way of telling someone that you really care about them. 00:26:42 Crystal: And that's all about Puerto Ricans. We care. We care a lot. We want to share everything that we have. And all the visitors that we have, they all can say that Puerto Ricans are always nice to them. Even if we have people that doesn't speak so much English, they will take you to whatever place you wanted to go, trying to understand you and enjoying our island. So I think that the pastel is representative of all the goodness of the Puerto Ricans.  00:27:16 Melissa: Let's pause for a second. If you've been nodding your head all along while listening to Crystal talk about food as fuel for imagination, then I wanna put this on your radar. My book, Fertile Imagination is for any mom who's ever thought, “I know I'm capable of more, but I don't know where to start.”  00:27:39 Melissa: And as one Amazon reviewer said this of my book, Fertile Imagination, which is all about maximizing your superpower to make your maximum impact, She says this, “It's a non judgmental kick in the butt to start valuing your whole selves and to create a new reality where we combine motherhood with our big dreams. Whether you're chasing an idea during nap time or whispering your big vision,” this is hilarious, “into a spatula, then this book is your creative permission slip.”  00:28:17 Melissa: You're gonna hear stories, especially if you like this conversation with Crystal. You're gonna hear a story as well from a podcast guest that I had here who is a James Beard award winning chef, Gabriele Corcos. And you're gonna learn about how he has really latched on to this idea of novelty as his way to explore new categories of interest in his one beautiful life. So I want to just be sure that you realize that this conversation is the beginning of the process. I wanted you to see through Crystal how if your imagination was reawakened, you can start to reimagine how you approach your own life. And I think that's important.  00:29:04 Melissa: But then the book, Fertile Imagination, goes on and adds some tools that you can actually use to incorporate your imagination into your one divine life. And here's the thing, because you could use your imagination from any place you are in the world, you won't have to hop on a plane and go to any place. You can actually just close your eyes and replug in to the little girl that you once were who had all these beautiful ideas that you wanted to play out in the world and that's what I want for you. 00:29:41 Melissa: So here's what I have for you. Just go ahead to fertileideas.com. If you're driving, if you're running, if you're walking, you could do this in a bit. Just go to fertileideas.com and you could download a free chapter of my book, Fertile Imagination. What's really amazing about that chapter is that that chapter basically takes you to a place where you can go and travel back in time, to that moment when you were most free, to that moment where you had the world totally ahead of you and you were imagining what you wanted for your one divine life. That's what I did when I got on stage at the Magnet Theater in New York City 100 years ago now, so it feels. 00:30:25 Melissa: But I talk about that moment for me in that chapter that you can get for free right now on fertileideas.com. So back to the show. Again, shop the book. This episode is brought to you by Fertile Imagination, every mom's superpower. Go to fertileideas.com. Grab the free chapter. Why not? What are you gonna do? Have an amazing time reading a free chapter? That's the way to set yourself up for success for this summer. All right. Enjoy the rest of the conversation.  00:30:55 Melissa: I've never ever heard of un pastel in that way. I'm just like… it's fascinating because I also think it's… maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a bit of an acquired taste to it too. Like, for me. Right? When I think about a pastel and I compare it to a tamal, I do not think about a Mexican tamal at all. I think about Cuban. I think about– 00:31:26 Crystal: Yeah. Sure. 00:31:28 Melissa: And for me, it's really fascinating to hear the story behind the pastel in the sense that it's very, very comprehensive. You could… I mean, I bet you there's probably books already. Or maybe you're gonna write a book. Maybe you got a fourth – a fifth hat to wear, right? You can write about pasteles. I mean, it's not a bad gig.  00:31:49 Melissa: But I think it's really interesting. And I think it's a testament to the fact that irrespective of where someone travels to the depth with which they can get to know and appreciate a culture is almost unlimited in a way, right? It's… like, for me and my family, I am not a Disney World person. But I've been to Disney World because it's kinda like, “Oh, we just go to Disney World and I have three kids.” And you got a cat. That's a little bit of a cat. She's got a cat. If you're watching this on video, you see her big and fluffy cat. Is your cat Puerto Rican though? 00:32:29 Crystal: She is Puerto Rican. She is a sato cat.  00:32:31 Melissa: Aw.  00:32:32 Crystal: She's a rescue one.  00:32:34 Melissa: So cute. She probably eats pasteles because she's got meat on her. She's a solid cat. But, yeah, just the depth with which you could understand a culture, what I'm hearing from you, Crystal, it can absolutely include history and and careful attention to the food that you're eating. Right? I think about just everywhere that I've traveled and every time I've eaten food, it's kind of like there's almost a story or a reason for why something is on a plate, and it's not always superficial. It's not just labor profile. It could have to do with political conversations. It could have to do with whoever decided that that food would make its way to that region.  00:33:27 Melissa: But let me ask you this question then. So just to kind of close-up this conversation on something that I think is very practical, I'm gonna ask you a very selfish question. Okay, so I'm on the quest for the perfect sofrito. I'm gonna tell you what I do for my sofrito. So it's my ritual on Sundays. I take all the peppers that I find, red, green, yellow, and even orange because it comes in that pack. I also then buy cilantro. I'm in Texas, so let's just be mindful I'm limited in some of the things I can get.  00:34:05 Melissa: Also because I'm a health conscious mom, I put bone broth in the blender so that this way things can blend. Right? I put onions. I put garlic. I put some oregano. That is what's in my sofrito on a good day. Melissa's like, “Okay. I am ready to make a sofrito.” How can I enhance that sofrito, or how do you teach people that visit El Pretexto how to make their own sofrito?  00:34:39 Crystal: Well, sofrito is one thing as the pasteles. Right? Everybody have their own recipe, and everybody says that their mom's sofrito is the best. Right? [inaudible] My mom's sofrito is the best. So that's the one that I do. And I'm happy to share the recipe for you because I have it written.  00:35:03 Crystal: But there are two schools of Sofrito to begin with. The school that says you do your Sofrito on a Sunday and you don't touch it… you don't do another Sofrito batch up until that one is gone in one or two weeks. And then you have my mom's school, which is you do your sofrito every time that you're gonna cook. 00:35:28 Melissa: Gotcha. Right.  00:35:31 Crystal: Obviously, that's nice for those that are retired and have all the time in the world. I do it that way. I'm not retired, but it's because I have a– 00:35:40 Melissa: That's your job. 00:35:41 Crystal: That's how she does it. And I don't want to, to your point, I want to continue her way of doing things. So, there are onions. We don't use all the colors of the bell peppers. We actually use cubanelle pepper. Onion cubanelle, then we will have the aji dulce, the sweet little pepper we need. We will have the cilantro, but we will also have culantro. [inaudible]. Yeah? And then, we will have garlic in it, a little bit of oregano, and pretty much that's the base. 00:36:29 Crystal: So depending on who you ask, there are people that will omit having the onion, and they will do it when they are cooking, if they're doing a batch. And then you will have people that will go all the way in with a lot of culantro in it, so it has that strong flavor to it. My mom's is more balanced in how much goes of each little thing in there. And we also use the bone broth, but not to blend the sofrito, but to stew the rice. If it's gonna be a stew rice, we will do bone broth instead of water with the rice. 00:37:18 Crystal: And then, the beans, we like them vegetarians. We don't use any hams or meat cuts into it. But, again, that's us. There are people that say that the most flavorful ones is with a piece of ham in it and whatever. But, I like… my mom's and mine are vegetarian. And my cat starts again.  00:37:43 Crystal: But, sofrito is is very personal. You know? It's part of how your family has done it. And as I told earlier, it's also a blend of these three cultures that goes into it. A lot of cultures have mirepoix or other type of base of flavors into their food and this is ours. So you have to make it yours but also learn that there is a lot of history into it. It's not something that we do because we do it. There is a lot of history into it. But, yeah, happy to share my mom's one with you. 00:38:29 Melissa: Yeah. For sure. Crystal, this was so amazing. So I would say around now, a lot of individuals are planning their summer holiday trips and vacations and all of that. So, maybe you can share where people can learn more about you, can learn more about El Pretexto if that's an option to them to kind of explore, and just follow your journey. 00:38:53 Crystal: Yeah. Sure. Well, a friendly reminder that it is an adults only project. So this might be your chance to… El Pretexto actually translates to “The Excuse.” So this might be your excuse to having your parents take care of the kids and hop down to the island and have a little bit of a honeymoon. But, El Pretexto, you can find it at elprotextopr.com. We're also in social media @elprotextopr in Facebook and Instagram.  00:39:30 Crystal: There you will meet our chickens and photos of our garden and our harvest and the breakfast, and maybe you get a little bit hungry. In our website, you will find different options because you could come for a weekend or you could come for a weekday stay, but also you could come for these curated food experiences, which are in very specific dates around the year. We also have dinners, farm to table dinners in our property. We invite guest chefs to cook dinners, around the year.  00:40:08 Crystal: And, also, I take people to other places in the countryside to enjoy a beautiful lunch, but getting to know another piece of countryside around the island. So, El Pretexto is no other thing than the celebration of the beautiful diverse countryside of Puerto Rico. And you can check all the information there. So, yeah, feel free to follow me there.  00:40:37 Melissa: Thank you so much, Crystal. This has been amazing. Have an awesome rest of your day. Keep enjoying the peace and serenity of the mountains and the Caribbean Sea and all the beauty that you see outside your window. Thank you so much for this conversation.  00:40:53 Crystal: Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.  00:40:56 Melissa: So what's your version of a sofrito? Right? Let's take it out of the kitchen and into your home office. What sort of things for you can you put together to create your next big idea, whether it's something for business, something for your personal life or something for your family this very summer. I am so excited to have had Crystal Diaz for this conversation because I think she's inspiring all of us. She's giving us a good idea of all the ways that we could color our own individual rainbows.  00:41:33 Melissa: At the same time, I want this to just remind you that your imagination could be stirred into anything, right? Especially like tonight's dinner. So catch up on Tuesdays on the Mom Founder Imagination Hub and until then, keep cooking up ideas that only you can serve. I honestly think there's a place in this world for imaginations. And irrespective of AI and technology, at the end of the day, it's only as good as the person behind the computer screen, our prompts, our ideas, the way that we decide to use these resources.  00:42:10 Melissa: And that is the best case for you to actually keep your imagination going and playing with it. So thank you for this conversation. And again, if you are interested in learning more about the book, just go to fertileideas.com. Have an amazing rest of your day, moms.  

In the world of podcasting, a lot of newbie hosts get nervous about their voices and the stories they want to share. In this special holiday episode, Melissa teams up with the amazing Anika Jackson to chat about juggling motherhood, entrepreneurship, and podcasting. Anika shares how she helps podcasters find their true voice, streamline their workflow, and grow their influence—all while cracking us up with some hilarious stories (yes, there's even a squirrel costume involved!). Scroll down for image

Ready for a fresh episode that's brimming with big dreams, family stories, and some real-life hacks to build a better business without burning out? This week, we're chatting with Leah Remillet, a mom, entrepreneur, and systems whiz who shares her journey from hustling 24/7 to finding that sweet spot of success and balance.    Leah breaks down how she took a 100-day break (yes, you read that right!) and still came back to a thriving business, totally inspired. Plus, if you've ever had genius ideas pop up while you're in the shower or driving, Leah's got tips on capturing those “aha!” moments without missing a beat.   So, grab a cozy seat or hit play on your next drive – we're diving into all things systems, sabbaticals, and sustainable success! In this episode, you will hear:   Allowing yourself space to step back can reignite passion and motivation. Transitioning from a “hustle harder” mindset to finding balance by setting boundaries and systems. Nurturing creativity without the interference of day-to-day tasks. Shifting focus to small, everyday positives can improve both business and personal well-being. How small tools like shower notepads and car voice memos are great for capturing fleeting creative thoughts. Capturing inspiration right away helps turn ideas into actionable steps.  

We need to do a better job at resourcing ourselves, especially if you've decided that you have an unwavering commitment to see your business and family-life vision through! It's not an easy feat to disrupt industries, create your own, or parent multiple kids. It can be chaotic, even on a good day! That's why this week we're diving into the secrets of how to make it all work—yep, all of it! Do you wonder how you can be a boss at work and a rockstar mom at home and still have time to chase those big, audacious dreams? Well, wonder no more!   I'm bringing you an exclusive mashup featuring two powerhouse mompreneurs, Zibby Owens (mom of 4) and Liz Tenety (mom of 5), who are going to spill the beans on balancing business, babies, and everything in between. You ought to know that I have 3 sons with identical twins in that mix, so I know a thing or two about chaos and what it takes to be in business—I've been here for 13 years! Trust me, you don't want to miss their golden nuggets of wisdom, and I'll be chiming in with some of my own wild stories (hello, diaper blowout during a sales pitch?!)   So, grab your coffee, pop in those earbuds, and let's get inspired to stretch our imaginations and turn those crazy ideas into reality! Ready? Let's go! In this episode, you will hear: How to use your mom skills like humility, adaptability, and patience to dominate the business world.  Infusing your work life with playful strategies that help you manage stress and overwhelm like a boss.  Master the art of profitable relationship-building with techniques that are both strategic and authentic. Say goodbye to awkward networking events! Get tools to navigate those pesky insecurities and show up with confidence in every business conversation. Learn to make bold asks and communicate fearlessly to achieve your wildest business goals.  This episode is brought to you Fertile Imagination to Networking Success by my LIVE 9-week group coaching immersive program on becoming a powerful strategic networker using the Imagination to Impact and Income Method™ to connect with the right people, lead the right conversations, and swing open the right doors to success. The DOORS are officially open! But hurry, the DOORS close on September 27th at 5pm CST. I want to be sure you do not miss out on this opportunity and for that reason I invite you to send me a DM today and ask me anything about the opportunity to enroll today. Send me a DM today: https://www.instagram.com/melissallarena/ to ask me anything before the doors officially close. Happy to hop on a quick 15-minute call too so DM me and I'll send you a link for us to talk. Otherwise, head on to www.melissallarena.com/network  Imagine this in only 9 weeks, you could: Build profitable relationships and exceed your growth goals. Gain access to opportunities, boost your confidence for bolder asks, and raise prices. Feel energized by a fresh approach to relationships that taps into your imagination—the source of joy and fresh ideas. Navigate impostor syndrome, reignite your creativity, meet mom obligations, and achieve your best year ever with a focused plan. Approach your year-end goals with a mindset that leverages your advantages as a mom—letting your kids keep you grounded and present while inspiring you with their growth mindset. How? By enrolling in the Fertile Imagination to Networking Success Program for Mom Founders! This game-changing experience which you can enroll in right HERE https://www.melissallarena.com/network/ by September 27th at 5pm CST will show you how to: Transform your networking approach with 9 weeks of live coaching to implement the Imagination to Impact to Income Method™ for genuine connections without gatekeepers. Access an on-demand curriculum with research-based, cross-industry insights covering who to network with, how to find them, and how to create your networking calendar for higher-impact relationships. Experience a one-on-one role-playing session using storytelling to differentiate your business (and yourself), and receive expert feedback on communications for momentum. Revitalize your leadership skills by integrating the strengths you gain from being a mom with diverse modalities and tools that leverage the art of play. Use techniques such as meditations to get your creative juices flowing, boost productivity, and increase your energy. Connect with a community of like-minded mom founders for support and accountability, keeping your standards high and your vision strong. Journal your progress in a workbook to track your improved ability to tackle impostor syndrome and create a visionary leader roadmap to increase confidence. To ensure your long-term success, I've also included additional opportunities to apply these new networking skills by providing you with... Lifetime Access to the on-demand curriculum: Take the guesswork out of networking and refresh your strategy whenever needed. (you can teach this to your kids too!) Two months access to an Alumni online community of like-minded mom founders (priceless value; one contact can turn into a life-changing opportunity!) Two tickets to attend four virtual Quarterly Impact Appreciation Mixers focused on continued education in networking so that you can continue to deepen relationships. And this time only you will also get instant access to three exclusive bonuses that can help you make time for building profitable relationships, making bigger asks to get more, and attracting the right people with resources—so you can connect while you sleep. Get it off your plate!: Reclaim hours each week to easily fit relationship building into your life for business growth. Bolder Communication Strategies Toolkit: Step into a bolder persona and make bolder asks to optimize every interaction. Brush Up Your LinkedIn Profile: Unlock massive networking success by making your LinkedIn profile work harder for you.   I know this sounds too good to be true so don't take my word for it, listen to what others have said about my method. Visit the website: https://www.melissallarena.com/network/ About Melissa Llarena   Melissa is a bestselling author (learn more on www.fertileideas.com), imagination coach behind the Fertile Imagination to Networking Success Group Coaching Program, consultant, speaker, contributor to ForbesWomen articles that have garnered 4 million-plus views, and the podcast host of the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. Featured guests include GaryVee, Beth Comstock, Suzy Batiz, David Meltzer, and hundreds of other unconventional thinkers. Melissa has been featured in the WSJ, Business Insider, Fox Business, CNN Money, The Huffington Post, and other publications. She holds a psychology degree from NYU, an MBA from the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth, and a Transformational Coaching Academy certificate and is training to become a meditation practitioner. Melissa lives in Austin, Texas, with her husband and three sons (one singleton and a set of identical twins).   Quotes, that can change your perspective: “We need to do a better job of resourcing ourselves. We have almost everything that we need right under our noses." - Melissa Llarena "The idea is to leap to your goals and make big strides, not get there at a snail's pace." - Melissa Llarena "I feel like I lead as a mom, and I feel like it has only made me a better leader, and they don't talk about that at business school at all." - Zibby Owens "Being humble. 100%. The superpower is the ability to constantly learn" - Zibby Owens   “It is about energy, it is about time, it is about money, and all those things kind of intersect and just encouraging people to use their creativity.” - Liz Tenety….on how being a business leader helped her lead her family "What if hanging out with your kids can be part of your competitive advantage, a business strategy, so that you can come up with a better business idea or something more innovative, certainly something that is simpler to describe." - Melissa Llarena “I think it is so important to bring the whole of you to the table because, because as a mom with a business, that is your competitive advantage.” - Melissa Llarena SHARE this episode and unleash your imagination, tap into your superpowers, and build a successful business while being an amazing mom. Join the conversation with other mom founders and learn how to achieve your goals with confidence and support!

Hey there, amazing moms and dream chasers! This week, I opened up about my journey as a mom and entrepreneur, and I can't wait for you to dive in. We're chatting about why keeping your energy and momentum high is key, especially as we near the year's end. I'll share my go-to tips for handling the distractions and pressures that come with balancing mom life and business. Plus, get ready for some savvy strategies to craft a year-end networking plan that helps you build valuable connections without zapping your energy. From my quest to become a top Amazon bestseller to my dream interviews with big names like Gary Vaynerchuk and Suzy Batiz, I'm here to prove that you can totally chase your dreams while still rocking your mom role. Don't miss out on this fun and insightful episode! Plus, discover Never-Before-Shared Secrets I've Used to Help Moms Like You Tailor Success to Your Business and Family! Join My FREE LIVE Masterclass on September 23, and also 24th exclusively for Mom Business Owners—Sign Up Today!" Master Your Year-End Networking: Build Profitable Relationships For Business Growth in 30 Days Without Burnout: https://www.melissallarena.com/masterclass/   In this episode, you will hear:   How to keep your unique essence of both a mom and business leader while going after those big entrepreneurial goals. The real talk on the hurdles we face and how to tackle them. Why staying pumped and on track is a game-changer for hitting your goals. Tips for building awesome relationships without draining your energy and avoiding burnout. How to ditch those self-doubts and own your business superpowers. Why having a clear picture of your goals is crucial for both business and personal success. How to stay healthy and happy while juggling motherhood and entrepreneurship. The power of community and collaboration among moms in business.   We're halfway through September, and if the thought of the months ahead is draining your energy, stick with me—I'm going to show you how to stay energized and finish this year strong. Avoiding burnout is the name of the game and I have found a solid way that is rarely discussed. What if I told you that profitable networking is not just another task on your to-do list, but actually the most energy-efficient way to grow your business and finish the year strong? Hey, everyone! Before we dive in, as promised all the details about my masterclass are here—in the show notes. If you're ready to take action now, just head over to www.melissallarena.com/masterclass to sign up. But first, a message from our sponsors i.e.  This episode is brought to you by: Master Your Year-End Networking: Build Profitable Relationships For Business Growth in 30 Days Without Burnout: https://www.melissallarena.com/masterclass/ A LIVE one-hour masterclass for visionary mom business owners: Close the year strong with the proven "Imagination to Impact to Income Method™" to manage time, energy, and stay focused through gatekeeper-free networking.

Do you ever find yourself spinning a million plates while trying to rock both motherhood and business?

Feeling overwhelmed by the constant juggle of running a business and raising kids? You're not alone! Today, we're diving into something that every mom entrepreneur can relate to—overwhelm. If you've ever felt like the to-do list just keeps growing, this episode is for you. I'm sharing my personal strategy for nipping that overwhelm in the bud by tapping into something we often overlook—playfulness.   We'll take a look at how taking a moment to laugh at a funny video or doing something light-hearted isn't just procrastination—it's a quick and effective reset. These playful breaks can recharge us, making it easier to tackle the day's challenges with a fresh perspective.   Plus, I'll explore how we can learn from the natural playfulness of our kids. They're experts at finding joy in the little things, and by embracing their spirit, we can create a happier, less stressful environment for ourselves and our families.   Finally, I give a sneak peek into my upcoming masterclass called: How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy designed specifically for mom founders. P.S. the name was tweaked to Year-End Networking: Build Profitable Relationships For Business Growth in 30 Days Without Burnout It's all about building profitable relationships and crushing those year-end goals, complete with a 30-day action planner to keep you on track and burnout free!   So, if you're ready to bring more joy and creativity into your life and business, this episode is for you! In this episode, you will hear:   Acknowledging overwhelm, especially during busy times like the fall season. Utilizing children's natural playfulness to reduce overwhelm and boost happiness. Why cross-pollination (borrowing ideas from unrelated fields) is a game-changer. The benefits of play in business, including reducing anxiety and fostering calmness.. Challenges of maintaining momentum as a mom entrepreneur and overcoming imposter syndrome.   If you're feeling overwhelmed and stretched, join in my free LIVE masterclass called: How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy. Sign-up HERE: https://www.melissallarena.com/masterclass/ Get ready to learn a proven strategy that can help you regain control and create lasting change! First a confession, I've always dreamed of a photoshoot with my three sons. Picture this: I'm in an ultra-stretchy dress, and each of my boys is tugging at the material in different directions, making me look like a splattered wad of gum on the floor. It's a funny way of highlighting the real struggle of being pulled in so many directions. Your kids need you, your business needs you—especially when you're aiming for growth. It can feel overwhelming, right? So, I asked myself: What's one thing I could do well, on my own schedule, while working from home? For me, it's focusing on building the right profitable relationships using my Imagination to Impact to Income Method™. That's what I'm sharing in my masterclass, How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy. Early in my business, I found an energy-efficient path to boost credibility, expand reach, and earn more income. Building profitable relationships proved more reliable than ads. Reimagining my company vision as an energy resource led to my Imagination to Impact to Income Method™. This method starts with our imagination, an untapped energy source for adults. Our kids know it well. I've used it to become a #1 bestseller, secure podcast guests like GaryVee and Suzy Batiz, garner media (WSJ, etc.), and achieve five-figure months. These wins required my energy and being a mom. Join my free masterclass, How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy. Get a roadmap to capture busy contacts' attention, navigate impostor syndrome, and unlock energy inspired by your mission and kids! In this masterclass, I'll guide you through: ·         Reimagining your company vision to reignite your passion, helping you surpass your 2024 goals and savor the holidays with the energy you deserve. ·         Discovering a clear focus for relationship-building in your business, so you can channel your energy into strategies with lasting impact, beyond fleeting social media posts. ·         Proactively addressing impostor syndrome, empowering you to overcome self-doubt and conserve your energy for what truly matters. Click here to grab your spot. In future episodes, I'll share how using your imagination for a focused, profitable networking strategy can energize you. Sign up to get an immediate sneak peek into one of my top energy-boosting secrets (the secret to my pep) with a downloadable workbook sent straight to your inbox. Sending you energy, -Melissa P.S. Show up LIVE to my free class and you will get a BONUS 30-Day Profitable Networking Action Plan and Tracker that connects your vision to daily actions! It's a smart, actionable, and mom-friendly planner to map out your 30-day networking activities to keep you focused on the right things. It also sees to it that you replenish your energy to prevent burnout. EXTRA bonus for showing up LIVE is that you will be entered into a drawing to be a podcast guest on the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. Quotes, that can change your perspective: “Our children are imagination experts in residence. Why not learn from these wonderful individuals who are right there on how they are able to visualize completely random things?” “If you are in a moment of a lot of stress and a lot of steps and a lot of moving parts to anything in your life as a mom in business, then it is really important for you to take a step back every once in a while.” “Adopting a playful spirit is a tool for you so that you can use it, and you have people around you, i.e., humans that are kids, who are really great at it. So why not leverage their expertise so that you can get farther?”  “I encourage you also to just imagine for yourself: what would be possible if you could do anything that you wanted to do without having to struggle with overwhelm?” SHARE this episode and reignite the joy of play and creativity to conquer overwhelm. Let's empower our fellow mom entrepreneurs to embrace play and confidently manage stress.

Feeling stretched thin as a mom and entrepreneur? Let's talk about burnout and how to beat it! For me, finding that sweet spot between work and family fun is a game-changer. Imagine shooting hoops with your kids or diving into books you all enjoy—it's all about blending joy and quality time.  Next up, we're super excited to have Liz Tenety join us! She's the brilliant co-founder of Motherly and the mastermind behind Founding Women. As a mom of five, Liz knows all about balancing the chaos of a big family with the grind of running a venture-backed startup. She's here to drop some major wisdom on managing your energy, why it's crucial to prioritize your well-being before chasing profits, and how to get creative with childcare and household support. Liz is all about a holistic approach to avoid burnout. She cautions that focusing solely on work and parenting can lead to neglecting friendships and personal wellness. Her advice? Blend work and home life seamlessly, involve the kids in chores, and don't hesitate to get help when needed. We'll also explore how to balance life and business, with Liz sharing tips on building a support team, from hiring a virtual assistant to arranging childcare swaps with other entrepreneur moms. Ready to learn from the best? Let's dive in! In this episode, you will hear: Actionable insights on managing energy and aligning family and business needs. Methods to keep burnout at bay, including investing in well being and child care before turning a profit. Creative ways to blend personal interests with parenting through enjoyable activities. Exploration of energy management techniques and the balance between narrow focus and holistic well being. Hiring resources early and fostering a collaborative family environment to reduce personal burnout. Liz's experience in creating supportive communities for female founders and translating business skills into effective motherhood. Identifying and managing daily parenting tasks and logistical challenges to prevent burnout. Ideas for reimagining work-life balance and parenting to create a sustainable and fulfilling life. Encouragement to build a support network and invest in well being for a successful business and family life.  This episode is brought to you by a LIVE free masterclass How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy. Back to school for moms? Join me on September 23, 2024 or September 24, 2024! Add your name to my newsletter HERE: https://fertileideas.com/ - this will do two things: you'll instantly receive my free networking playbook and be the first to know when the doors to my masterclass officially open!  Be the first to hear when the DOORS officially open to this FREE masterclass for mom founders. As when they do, you'll get a workbook upon signing up so you can start to warm up your profitable relationship building skills before you need them and for showing up LIVE you'll get my very own plug-and-play 30-day networking planner! How's that for a gift? More about this LIVE free masterclass: How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy. You want to build profitable relationships without draining your energy for family and business. Imagine if family time and business could fuel each other rather than deplete you. Maybe you've been filling your cup instead of depleting it? I faced the same challenge. I learned to balance being a great business owner and mom while building profitable relationships in my 13-year career. I can help you make this a reality. Hi, I'm Melissa Llarena, bestselling author, podcaster, mom of three boys (including twins), and CEO of a coaching business in Austin, TX. I started my business with my firstborn at six months and, later with twins, struggled with distractions. I discovered that while some founders might reach goals faster, I didn't need to sacrifice my vision. I focused on building profitable relationships, a more consistent path to income than ads or social media algorithms. This approach expanded my reach, boosted my message, and increased my credibility. Plus, my method saves time by skipping gatekeepers, eliminating the need for warm intros or happy hours. This is what sets my method apart. I created a repeatable networking strategy for moms using my "Imagination to Impact to Income Method™." This strategy transformed how I manage time and energy and will be the focus of my LIVE masterclass entitled How to Craft a Focused Year-End Networking Strategy to Build Profitable Relationships in 30 Days Without Draining Your Mom Energy. My mission is to help moms creatively build their business while embracing motherhood. Profitable relationships align with both your business and family goals. I'll show you how in the masterclass to close the year strong. Attend LIVE and get a 30-day Profitable Networking Planner™! No more guessing how to connect with the right people. By the end of the class, you'll learn to: - Reimagine your company vision to energize you. - Find a clear relationship-building focus for your business's potential. - Overcome impostor syndrome to become unstoppable. Learn a proven plan to turn contacts into connections, even if you're an introvert. It helped me land GaryVee on my podcast, write books, and secure major sales, including a collaboration with the world's first IVF baby. I'll share this in the masterclass. Ready to add this to your calendar! Sign-up to be the first to know when the doors OPEN for this LIVE free masterclass! https://www.melissallarena.com/masterclass/ Let's turn ON your superpower LIVE! -Melissa Llarena About Liz Tenety Liz Tenety is a dynamic founder, digital entrepreneur, and transformation coach dedicated to empowering ambitious women. As the co-founder of Founding Women, she supports female founders through expert-led small groups and accelerators. Liz previously served as the Chief Digital Officer and co-founder of Motherly, where she played a key role in growing the venture-backed startup to 30 million monthly users and significant revenue. With nearly 20 years in media and startups—including a decade at The Washington Post—Liz now leads Growth Mode, her growth consulting firm, and coaches at Blue Engine Collaborative and Georgetown University. Her passion lies in using design thinking, storytelling, and data to uplift women and mothers in business. Quotes, that can change your perspective:   "Not having friends is actually a recipe for me for burnout, not focusing on pleasure and rest and play." - Liz Tenety "I realized, okay, wait a minute, instead of paying someone to watch my kids so I can clean, I should hire house help with that extra funds that I might have so that I could spend that time with my kids." - Liz Tenety "I don't know how to keep up with the competition if I'm not up front hiring resources before I make one dollar. Any other mom found a better way?." - Melissa Llarena "I feel your pain, and it's not easy to make these numbers work."  - Liz Tenety "No great company is built alone. And in a lot of ways for me, I learn better how to run my family and think about what it means to lead a family by running a company" - Liz Tenety "You might get so much energy from hanging out with your loved ones. And why would you avoid that source of energy? You're a mom, there's finite energy." - Melissa Llarena   SHARE this episode with anyone who's juggling the demands of motherhood and entrepreneurship! Whether you're seeking tips on avoiding burnout, balancing work and family, or building a support network, Liz Tenety's insights are gold. Let's spread the wisdom and help each other thrive—don't miss out! Supporting Resources:   Website:  https://foundingwomen.co  Instagram: @liztenety Subscribe and Review Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.   I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms.   About Fertile Imagination – www.fertileideas.com You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There's flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It's time to see and seize what's beyond your gaze. Let's bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There's only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what's been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It's like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it's alert!   In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!   Advance Praise   “You'll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator “Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on...even after the kids are in bed.” —KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money   “This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Liz:  I try to set up opportunities for play with my kids that I enjoy. I don't like board games. I just like, I don't like that. And I don't like terrible cartoon character books, the little books with Paw Patrol. Like aesthetically, like it offends me. So I try to like play a basketball. I love playing basketball with my son. So I'll try to do something with my child that I enjoy and read choose the book that is going to bring me pleasure to read with my kid. 00:00:33 Melissa:  Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're going to get to that next level in business. Find the energy to keep going and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover how mom founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood. Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out and stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm going to give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening.   00:01:25 Melissa:  Welcome, beautiful mom founder. So in today's episode, we're gonna go through burnout. Is there a way to avoid it? Is there a way to keep it at bay through energy management solutions that work for you and your family? Also, we're gonna go through building a business and how that might actually make you a more empowered mom who can design a family life that is almost like run like a business with heart, of course. We're also gonna go through investing in your wellbeing and why you might want to pay for the child care, pay for the VAs before you turn a profit. So the conversation today is something that I personally really needed. Today's guest is none other than the co-founder behind Motherly, current founder of Founding Women, a career community supporting female founders through expert led small groups and accelerators. The name of today's guest is Liz Tenety. 00:02:21 Melissa:  I am thrilled to have her perspective. She's a mom of five and she knows what it takes in order to run a venture backed startup. She also knows what it takes in terms of the requirements that having a big family have on our energy levels and sources. So enjoy the conversation. Definitely. Let me know what you think in terms of the possibilities for you to almost piece together your own childcare solutions, piece together your own resources so that you can have that opportunity to invest in your wellbeing upfront, so that you can actually launch your business, build your business, scale your business, and make whatever vision you have for your business turn into a reality that you are better off for, you and your family. That's what it's about here. So enjoy the conversation. 00:03:17 Melissa:  This episode is brought to you by a masterclass I want to formally and cordially invite you to on September 23rd. We're gonna go through a focused 30 day networking strategy that is gonna help you end the year strong. It is about having a company vision that energizes you. It is about, and we're gonna go through how to focus, where to apply your finite focus as a mom, and also how to actually navigate feeling like an imposter at times so that you get billed and really enhance the profitable relationships that are going to take your business to the next level. This is happening on September 23rd. I know, I know, right now we are just getting our kids back to school and that might not be on your top of mind list, but I want to just give you some of the details that we're going to run through. And I want to invite you to sign up today for my newsletter so that you're the very first to hear of when I opened the doors for this masterclass that will be live for one hour on September 23rd, which is a Monday. So just go to fertileideas.com. Go ahead and grab my free networking playbook while you're at it, and that will instantly put you on the list. So on September 23rd, here's what you're in for.  00:04:45 Melissa:  You are going to 100% have a really good idea on how to make your company vision, which a lot of you might call your origin story or that description on your website that describes what you do, who you are and why, and have it work for you. Have it energize you, have it feel more aligned and have it almost like contribute to that pep in your step. The second thing we're going to do is we're going to narrow your focus. And here's what I mean by that. It is not about, you know, not, it's not about being in monk mode. It's not about going to a retreat in some cottage in Canada. No, it is about understanding what you need to accomplish to make the end of this year, 2024, align with what you had originally intended this year to look like in terms of your revenue, in terms of your business, in terms of whatever creative endeavor you have out there. And the third point, which I mentioned a little earlier is, you know, on a path to building a business, there are moments where you might start second guessing yourself. You might encounter self doubt that mental chatter that I don't know if I'm ready might pop up. I want you to have a proactive plan this year so that the end of the year, you don't have regrets. I wish I would have, I wish I would have pressed send. I wish I would have published my book. I wish I would have, you know, launched my podcast, I wish I would have asked for, you know, bigger donation dollars for my nonprofit. I don't want you to have that on your heart.  00:06:11 Melissa:  I want you to be totally prepared and ready for a strong end to 2024. So quick, quick, quick to do go to fertileideas.com. That'll be in the show notes and sign up. Get the playbook while you're at it. I have a networking playbook that also helps you start to build profitable relationships and it is so useful whether you are an introvert or an extrovert or somewhere in between There's such a thing as an ambivert. So go ahead to fertile ideas comm get the playbook. Here's the thing I'm gonna be pricing it about $14.99 so you could totally wait and get it later, but today right now it is free for mom founders to go to fertileideas.com, that is how you get in my email newsletter and that is also how you have first persons access to the details around this masterclass that will be live will be on September 23rd and will be all for mom founders who want to end the year strong.  00:07:09 Melissa:  So go ahead right now. I'll give you a second hit pause and sign up for the playbook. So you get on the newsletter and you're the first to know about this masterclass is going to change the way you end 2024. I look forward to seeing you there and enjoy the conversation with Liz Tennedy. I'm so excited that she joined me on The Mom Founder Imagination Hub. So Liz, I am so excited to have you here on the mom found her imagination hub. I love that you're putting on chapstick. That is so mom of you in the morning. How are you?  00:07:41 Liz:  I'm great. I slept well last night and kids are healthy. The babysitter's here. We're nearing the end of summer break. So I'm feeling hopeful about the future, even the next couple of weeks. 00:07:56 Melissa:  Yeah, I think they call it summer break, but I feel like we end up kind of breaking, if we don't have everything like structured out and our resources in place. And so I get it. I get it. But here's here's something that I would love to speak with you about in great depth, right? For as long as we have the time. Burnout. Let's let's like dive deeply into burnout. I mean, in terms of your experiences and now with what you're doing with Founding Women, I know that it's top of mind. I know that it's part of, you know, wellness as a solution, but here's kind of my thought on burnout and I wanna hear what you think. So I feel like having a narrow focus is one way to kind of proactively address burnout or not get to that place. But then I also think, so I have lots of thoughts, but I'll just share my second and I'll stop there. I also think that we have different points at which we reach burnout. So I might reach burnout after X hours of work sitting down at my computer, whereas someone else might have a different burnout point. So here's the question I asked myself legit. How can I work really hard and long right before my burnout point so I don't get to that place where it's hard to get back? 00:09:22 Liz:  I mean, it's such a huge, huge topic. I think something I always personally love to do is to zoom way out. And by that, I don't just mean for my own life. I actually mean like on the horizon of time and human history, how are humans doing work and life in other cultures, in other times, like a hundred years ago, 10,000 years ago? Because my own like little life hypothesis is that we're living in unbelievably unprecedented times, particularly for mothers in the West who, you know, live these nuclear family lives. They have less sort of social support than ever, right? And we also have in its place no structural support, no political support, no corporate culture support for motherhood to kind of put my own struggles and the struggles of other parents, but especially moms that I encounter like in this context of, sure, by a lot of measures, we have things better than in human history. 00:10:36 Liz:  But if you look at other groups of measures like social support, belonging, meaning, I think we're actually really struggling. And so just knowing that helps me not feel so alone and feel like the struggle is real, like it's not just all up in my head. So that helps. And I'm always zooming out for my own problems and the daily struggles, because it really helps to put things in perspective for me. You mentioned narrow focus, which I find really interesting. And I don't know that I have like one answer. And frankly, I think any productivity guru who's giving you one answer or one framework is lying to you in different seasons of life. And I think that's particularly true for women and those who bear children that there's literally seasons that happen in your body and we need to respect them, but there's also seasons throughout the year. Capitalism acts like everything is always upward on the trajectory and it's not. We do need those seasons of rest and recovery that are just natural to being a human, especially being a woman, especially being a mother. So pushing back on that idea that it's always, you know, upwards. Anyway, get back to narrow focus. When I heard you talk about narrow focus, it reminded me of Greg McEwen's book, Essentialism, which I read, let's see, six years ago, and I found it so helpful, and I found it like such a relief.  00:12:10 Liz:  I was running my startup at the time or venture back startup, we were in total growth mode. I mean, it was so intense every single day. I read it on vacation that I took. And one of the one of the anecdotes in that book is about a large family. I think I think it was a stay at home mom and like a traditional working, you know, in the office dad. I remember that they had six kids. And the story was that that couple had decided that for that season of life, they did not need to focus on their friendships, their social lives, okay? And they went really narrow. It's about raising the kids and running this household. Again, I get that. And that was so logical. So I kind of bought it into this idea of narrow focus, right? The only thing I told myself at that time that I had capacity for, the only things were taking care of my kids and running my startup. And I bought in on that. And what happened was I burned out. And I realized why.  00:13:12 Liz:  And actually, Greg McEwen has written a follow-up book called Effortless, like critiquing his own framework here because then I realized, you know, in the pandemic and in the years that followed, as I approached 40, not having friends is actually a recipe for me, for burnout, not focusing on pleasure and rest and play. That I got so narrow that I didn't even allow myself to do things that were actually holistically good for me as a human being. So, and yeah, I'm attracted to the idea of like going narrow and not and letting certain things fall by the wayside. I do think depending on your season of life though, really looking holistically at like, what do I, what do I actually need to be refueled for this journey?   00:14:03 Liz: And kind of doing that 360 view of it is really critical. And I think for me, being too narrow and saying, oh, I don't have time for friends. I don't have time to work out. I don't have time for wellness. I'll prioritize that in a different season. That's actually ironically the thing that led me to burnout and then decide like, okay, I need a hard break with what, you know, the life that I've been living in a big reset, which is what I did about three years ago. 00:14:29 Melissa: Yeah. And it's interesting because when I talk about focus, what I mean is focusing on what gives you energy. And it doesn't necessarily mean taking everything off your plate. You might actually want to add things to your plate that energize you, like in your case, friendships, right? Or playing with your child, you know, playing pretend and things like that. That magical moment and experience can make you more excited when you're out there marketing, you know, your solution. And so I totally get what you're saying. I think our focus for what helps us avoid burnout. 00:15:11 Melissa: It's different. It's different from me. It's different for you, you know, like maybe, maybe I have social anxiety. I know some clients of mine, they suffer with that. And so the thought of them like going out in the world and such is draining on them, you know, but like virtual coffee chats as an example, might be really uplifting and helpful. So I think your point is perfect. Absolutely perfect. So let me ask you this question, because I feel like it's like the elephant in the room, right? For a lot of moms that found a business. So you mentioned two big, big, big things that were going on in terms of mothering your children, of which you have five, right? You have five. And running a business. So those two things, like I feel like the other side of it is, okay, how do you prevent burnout? I think we also have to be honest about the things in our lives that contribute to burnout that are not just you know, pitching clients or getting investors, but also untangling fights between siblings or schlepping someone from point A to point B and you know, there being traffic. And I don't have a spreadsheet that says, here are all the things that I think about that drain me from a family perspective, but I do have a list of to-dos from a business perspective.  00:16:34 Melissa: So looking at both sides, would you say that you have found in talking to founding women and learning about moms, through motherly and other means, have you found that maybe we're not being honest enough with the things that are really on our list? There are some invisible things that are not on our list that drain us. 00:16:54 Liz:  I love that. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I love your framework around energy management and I think it's sort of surging as a concept and people are growing in their awareness of this idea of focusing on what you have energy for and the sources of energy drain so that you can be in that zone of genius more frequently. And also, you know, you mentioned playing with your kids. I got some great advice a decade ago from a friend and I've tried to practice it, which is that I try to set up opportunities for play for kids that I enjoy. I don't like board games. I just like, I don't like that.  00:17:36 Liz: And I don't like terrible cartoon character books, you know, the little books with like Paw Patrol, like aesthetically, like it offends me, you know? So I try to like play a basketball. I love playing basketball with my son. So I'll try to do something with my child that I enjoy and read, choose the book that is going to bring me pleasure to read with my kid.  00:18:00 Liz: So even in parenting, looking, taking inventory of how do I use that, even in the car. I want to put music on that I'm going to enjoy, that I'm going to get energy from. And, you know, they're kind of whining in the background because, like, they don't like my weird music. Like, I'm fine with that. I, you know, I am the driver. I am the parent. I'm going to decide that, you know, we're listening to music that I enjoy. You know, you also are reminding me of. Something that I talk to my husband about all the time, which is that we're trying to build a life for ourselves and an integrated work and life work business family that we haven't quite seen modeled in our you know, micro communities.  00:18:44 Liz: You know, we've seen it kind of out there vaguely with like influencers who kind of live that more integrated family lifestyle. And by that I mean like family businesses or having a unique work family blend or being digital nomads and that kind of thing, which we're not, but I find that general concept interesting. And that is this, that if we want to live a little bit more intentionally, a little bit more unconventionally, we are going to have to find solutions for our family that we haven't seen modeled. And so something I love about your work is just your appreciation for creative genius and outside of the box solutions. 00:19:30 Liz:  But to get very specific, I realized a few years ago that I was hiring babysitters at nights or on the weekends so that I could catch up on housework or paperwork, you know, all the like logistics. So I realized, okay, wait a minute, instead of paying someone to watch my kids so I can clean, I should hire house help with that extra money. funds that I might have so that I could spend that time with my kids. And similarly, I recently hired a VA, a virtual assistant, right? So it's 600 bucks a month. I don't pay my bills anymore. They get paid, but my VA pays the bills, plans activities, buys tickets and airfare for trips.  00:20:18 Liz: Anything that's like weighing on me, even something this week I asked her to do was make sure the kids were signed up for the right bus for their school, all of that long, long, long, long list. I think of it like building scaffolding around our family where there's that long family list and I'm able to get support in things that aren't bringing me energy and that are taking away from my capacity to be focused on my kids at that time or on my work. The last part of where we are as a family with this I have to give my husband a lot of credit. We're working really hard in this season of life to get our kids much more actively involved in like solving the problems or the work of the family.  00:21:05 Liz: So having a heavier chore list for them, having them make sure they're doing their own laundry, having very clear assignments. In fact, last night my daughter was working on the meal plan and adding the ingredients to our grocery card on my phone. And so we think of it like a team. And when we think of our family as a team and as your kids get older, I'm finding it helpful and instructive and good for them to be more involved in making this team like function as a group. So those are some of the creative ways that I found to over time make this all work in a way that decreases my personal burnout.  00:21:49 Melissa: That makes sense, a lot of sense. I mean, I've definitely had someone that was talking about fair play and just, you know, making sure that everybody picks up different responsibilities and the mom, for the most part, doesn't feel so like, you know, out of control. So I totally hear what you're saying. I have to ask this question. It's something that is really pressing on my mind because a lot of the clients that I've supported. 00:22:14 Melissa: It's almost like they wait until a certain magic number from a revenue perspective or a certain magic age of their kids to start hiring any resources. Yeah. Right. So I heard and this could be totally fictional, but I heard one mom say, oh, I had a coach that said, you know, before, like, make $100,000 in your business and then hire a VA, for example. And so she split it in half. She said, how about $50,000 and then I hire a VA. Here's the chicken and egg question. It's like, as a mom, to be very brutally honest, I don't know how to keep up with the competition if I'm not upfront hiring resources before I make $1. Like help me untangle this. 00:23:11 Liz: I couldn't agree more and I don't presume to speak for other people's budgets and you know people have a wide variety of needs and things that they're paying for. I will say that you know as we've become parents, we were 27 when we became parents, we're about to turn 40 this year. So we make significantly more money today than we did you know when we were 27 and we had our first child and the vast majority of that income, the extra income that we made has been reinvested in quality childcare that makes our lives easier as parents in some housekeeping support. We have less now than we've had in the past because our kids are more capable.  00:23:53 Liz: But when I was working at the start or running my startup full-time, you know,  I was not doing any housework. That was like a weekly job and or someone was coming in to do the laundry. We have looked at like school budgets, right? Like our kids haven't necessarily gone to the preschool that we really wanted them to go to because literally my husband showed me if you choose this preschool, we choose this preschool, like we can't have housekeeping support. So we chose like the more affordable option so that we could put that money back into having a housekeeper and help us with the laundry and the maintenance of our home.  00:24:34 Liz: So, and we don't take many vacations, if any, will go travel to visit our families. We've even started driving 10 hour trips, 12 hour trips to go visit family to cut down on the cost of our vacations because I truly believe that early investment in my wellbeing is the thing that's gonna allow me to build my next business and kind of align my professional life with the integrated family life that I really want. 00:25:03 Liz: That being said, like it's so, so hard out there for working moms. We lack affordable childcare. We lack maternity leave policies. So I have nothing but empathy and I want people to know that if they are just truly looking at their budgets and saying like, I can't make this work, it's not your fault. You know, we, we have to pay, is it in some cities, you know, twice the cost of housing for our childcare. And there's no other country on earth that asks this of families. 00:25:34 Liz: So, you know, I feel your pain and it's not easy to make these numbers work. That being said, reinvesting yourself is absolutely the best thing that you can do and, you know, do it flexibly. I've had certain VA services that didn't work out and I no longer work with them. The one that I'm using now is phenomenal and I'm recommending them to others. But there's a book called Design Your Life, which is out of the Stanford D school and this whole idea of using prototypes, right? Lightweight prototypes to find solutions is one that I think my husband and I have tried and applied. And we keep trying different solutions to make this work in our various stages of life.  00:26:15 Melissa: Yeah. I mean, I, it's so interesting because I think so much great thinking comes out of these world-class institutions, right? I know you're at Georgetown and for me, I have relationships with Tuck but what I will say the one really big missing piece of the puzzle is okay. So that's nice if you wanna work in a big corporate environment, go up the ranks, et cetera, or have a startup, I'm thinking about Stanford, right? With its entrepreneurial leanings. But then what happens when you've had no sleep? Or what happens when you have one child and then you have five, you know, there's all these changes that are not just logical spreadsheet solutions, but they're emotional conversations that a lot of founding moms have in our heads that take up our finite energy.  00:27:04 Melissa: Okay, so here's something else that I was super curious to hear your thoughts on. So asking for help and just, you know, resources. I was having this like conversation with a mom, you know, over me with the margarita, her with the tea, and she said, you know, I've met all these like moms that have these fabulous businesses and they have legions of support, legions. And that's not what I heard you say right now. I heard that it's quite the adjustable team building setup. Say more on maybe the first step. Like how can somebody just incrementally build a team so that they don't have to like go all out and think, oh, it's all or nothing. But you know, there's this one resource and second and third.  00:27:51 Liz: So I guess over the decade of that, I've been a mom and an entrepreneur, I've learned how to think really creatively about time. And you know, all like working moms know that all of a sudden we can get a whole day's worth of work done in just a few hours. And that kind of may have seemed impossible before motherhood, but we just get this incredible focus. So I have been there. I mean, when I was a first, when I was a new working mom, I could not afford full time childcare. So I had four hours in the morning, I had lunch with my son, and then I worked as hard as I could during his two hour nap, right. So I kind of got to seven hours of work, working that way, just working around nap time. 00:28:36 Liz: I also have joined gyms where there's two hours of childcare and a little cafe that you can sit in. And so for like 200 bucks a month, you get two hours of childcare a day, whether or not you work out, which is a pretty great deal. You know, YMCAs have free childcare and are really affordable in a lot of communities. So I would think, you know, I would not bat an eye at doing that. I've also heard of entrepreneur moms setting up childcare swaps with other entrepreneurs. So one mom takes the kids one day, another mom, the next.  00:29:13 Liz: I also just, you know, encourage people to think about what they really need help with. Cause sometimes I think, do I really need more childcare and to spend a thousand dollars next week on full-time childcare or do I need to assign this project? To my VA or hire someone on Upwork to get this job done, right? I also think looking at the weekends, which I can often get taken over by kid activities, but my husband and I are working hard now to make sure that we each have designated time on the weekends to ourselves so that we can recover a little bit from the week and be able to be more intentional with, with our kids. So I guess not that I have an easy answer, but trying to think really creatively about your team, your time, where to find really dedicated pockets of time.  00:30:06 Liz: Lastly, I work from home. I've worked full-time from home for 12 years since becoming a mom. But this afternoon, I'm going to a cafe because talk about the space-time continuum. I can somehow be so much more creative and productive and I can put my headphones on and get a latte and sit down and crank workout in a cafe environment. Like that energy is really good for me creatively. And so again, it's like, it is about energy, it is about time, it is about money and all those things kind of intersect and just encouraging people to use their creativity.  00:30:41 Liz: Also, ChatGPT is blowing my mind every single day. And so when I have like thorny questions of how do I solve this weird problem that I've never even talked to someone about? ChatGPT is surprising me with what it's able to suggest. So even AI tools and things like that are able to kind of introduce serendipity into our lives when we realize that, you know, no great company is built alone. And in a lot of ways for me, I learned better how to run my family and think about what it means to lead a family by running a company and seeing no one can, I can't scale a startup by myself. I need talent to be in their zone of genius and we need to work together on a shared mission. And that over time is how I've tried to operate our family more and more intentionally, learning from running my company.  00:31:32 Melissa: I love that. That's the opposite direction or the other direction that Zibby Owens suggested. So Zibby Owens was on Mom Founders Imagination Hub. And she was saying how being a stay at home mom has helped her build out her business and the Zibby verse. Right. So that's like one direction. And then now you are sharing how it helps in the opposite direction too. Right. So founding the business, building the business, being a mom. And I feel like I'm kind of in between because I literally launched my business with my firstborn on my chest. Like I went to that first sales meeting with my baby in my Ergo baby. And he had a diaper blowout and I closed the sale. But Manhattan is all the better for that experience.  00:32:25 Melissa: [unclear] I love this. I love this. And you know what? You have a fertile imagination to say the least. And I think that is, it's huge. It's one worthy that anyone listening should totally check you out. Totally check out Founding Women, go to the website. And just use that expansive thinking to figure out the best solution for yourself, because your energy needs might be different than Liz's energy needs and my own. And so we need to each do our due diligence to see what works best for us and our family. So thank you so much, Liz. And so I appreciate you so much, Liz, for this conversation. And I would love to just hear more about where listeners can... follow you and learn more about what you're building for us.  00:33:15 Liz: Sure, well, thank you for that. My husband went to Stanford Business School and I did not attend but I did start motherly while he was in business school. And I'm on a list serve with all these women who are moms coming out of Stanford GSB, right? So high powered business women and they're about seven years post MBA right now, seven to ten years post MBA. And all of these high powered women are wrestling with this exact thing. So it's just really interesting to have like a sneak peek into that.  00:33:44 Liz: I am building a new support community for female founders. It is the community that I did not have. I think, you know, there's awesome career communities out there for ambitious women. Chief is, you know, the big famous one among them. But in my experience, founders, entrepreneurs are... much more motivated by this idea of freedom, of building an asset, of controlling your schedule. And the challenges that we face are quite different as female founders trying to build in that way. So people can go to foundingwomen.co. You can also look me up on LinkedIn, where I share more information about our community and also just supportive resources for female founders. So my name is Liz Tenety, T-E-N-E-T-Y. I'm hoping eventually to launch my own personal Instagram.  00:34:34 Liz: But I'm also the co-founder of Motherly. So if you are a mom and kind of in the midst of intense, you know, motherhood seasons, we provide expert support and resources on Instagram and our website, and you can find us at @mother.ly.  00:34:49 Melissa: Here are the three things that you will want to really think through pertaining to how to make your life better, how to feel more energized, more enthusiastic about what's ahead. Point number one, investing in your wellbeing before you turn a profit, understanding that everyone's budget is going to be different, and also understanding that you might feel uncertain in terms of what is coming up in the markets, et cetera. It is still a choice that you can make if you already are using some dollars for other sort of components of your childcare experience, right?  00:35:24 Melissa: So what I loved about Liz was that she didn't necessarily come up with some extra magic money. She instead with her husband made a decision. Either the kids go to childcare or go to a preschool that is higher priced, or we figure out a more affordable solution for their childcare or for their preschool and use the remainder or what's leftover or the extra for whatever it might be, cleaning the house. And so that is very inventive in the sense that it's not so much like asking for more, but doing different with the dollars that you intended to spend anyways. 00:36:03 Melissa: Second point, and again, this is before turning a profit if that is available to you. It is an investment. It's a different way of seeing things. The second point that I think is really worth thinking through for yourself is that burnout is not necessarily about being in monk mode, going to a retreat and being secluded from family and friends. You might get so much energy from hanging out with your loved ones. And why would you avoid that source of energy? You're a mom, there's finite energy. And if that is important to you, it is important for you to include that in terms of your, you know, avoid burnout plan.  00:36:43 Melissa: Here's the third point in terms of building a business. Zibby Owens actually in another podcast, which I will link in the show notes. She said that she learned how to build her business and be a team leader from being a stay at home mom. Here, Liz provides the opposite. She shares how building her business, so co-founding Motherly and now founding Women, is helping her really navigate motherhood and build a lifestyle and family life experience that is quote unquote sustainable and I don't know, maybe scalable if that's the right word in that instance. Either way, I would encourage you to really reimagine how you approach your life experience and how you intend to build up or scale your business given this conversation with Liz. 00:37:34 Melissa: I think there was a lot here that can be shared with other moms. I think anyone that is starting or thinking about launching a business needs to hear this conversation. So go ahead and share this episode with them today. You could share it either on iTunes or right here. Be sure that if you do share it on YouTube, which I would love, be sure that you share it with them and you just give them a heads up that they're about to change their perspective on whether or not it's possible to avoid burnout with few or limited resources. I think this conversation offered enough food for thought.  00:38:12 Melissa: So thank you so much. And until next Tuesday, did you subscribe? Did you actually hit the notification bell on YouTube? And if you're listening on iTunes or anywhere else this podcast is heard, did you hit follow? You just have the tiny little things that make a really big difference and encourage me to continue to pump content out like this for other moms. Moms who we have to use our imagination in order to carve a path that we may have never seen laid out for us before. Thank you so much.  

Hey there, welcome back to another episode of the Mom Founder Imagination Hub podcast! Today, we're diving into three super common mistakes that mom founders often make when they're reaching out to prospective investors, partners, alliances or even internal sponsors of their business ideas. Trust me, these are totally avoidable! So, let me tell you about this one mom founder I know. She had this amazing idea for a TV show, but when she pitched it, she made a few missteps that could have been easily avoided. First off, she didn't really understand who the decision maker was. Big no-no! It's so important to know who you're talking to and what makes them tick.  Next, she didn't take the time to figure out what actually mattered to the person she was pitching to. You gotta know what their priorities are! And finally, she didn't contextualize her pitch. You can't just throw your idea out there without showing how it fits into the bigger picture i.e. how does your solution fit into your target audience's portfolio or performance goals. Being a mom founder comes with unique challenges, especially when balancing entrepreneurship and family life. I understand completely. That's why I'm here to provide practical advice and support to ensure your next pitch gets you to the bargaining table (vs. is ignored).! In this episode, you will hear: Understanding the decision maker and contextualizing the pitch  Unique challenges faced by mom founders in balancing entrepreneurship and family life Challenges of navigating family life while pursuing entrepreneurship Failure to consider the perspective of the person being pitched to Lack of understanding of what matters to the person being pitched to Contextualizing the pitch to fit the specific industry or sector Need for thorough research and due diligence before reaching out to potential partners or investors Thoughtful and strategic communication in building successful business relationships In the car driving? Pause this episode and write this down. Book a free consult with Melissa this week. Go to www.melissallarena.com/sessions. Let's role-play one conversation you intend to have this week. You are a founder with a baked idea and you are currently in the pitching process whether it's for investment dollars or after you've gotten investment dollars and now you are on the hook for speeding up your business development efforts! You can tell me who I should be in this role-play, and I'll tell you what red flags I hear and whether a VIP day is right for you. Here's what you can expect during your VIP day and I want to be transparent. Spots for my VIP Days are extremely limited. I'm offering just 3 spots this month, and after that, this opportunity may never come around again. This is your chance to fast-track your connections and propel your business forward in just 3 hours.   Here's what you can expect: Tailored Strategy Session: Before the VIP Networking Day, you'll receive a simple questionnaire. This prework is designed to optimize our time together, ensuring every minute counts. We'll dive deep into your business goals, target investors, potential podcast guests/partners, or media contacts, and current networking challenges, setting the stage for maximum productivity. Real-Time Guidance: Once we're live on Zoom, it's all about action. Together, we'll roll up our sleeves and dive into the heart of networking. I won't just talk strategy; we'll implement it in real-time. Using the insights gathered from your prework, we'll identify and reach out to potential investors, podcast guests/partners, or media giants on the spot. You'll witness firsthand how to craft compelling outreach messages and make meaningful connections that matter. Strategic Outreach: Cold outreach can be daunting, but not anymore. With my guidance, you'll confidently reach out to potential investors, podcast guests, or media contacts during our session. Whether it's through email, LinkedIn, or other channels, you'll have a clear plan of action and the confidence to execute it in real-time. Follow-Up Mastery: The conversation doesn't end with the initial outreach. I'll equip you with a follow-up strategy designed to nurture relationships and keep investors, podcast guests/partners, or media contacts engaged. From timely follow-up emails to strategic touchpoints, you'll have all the tools you need to move prospects closer to funding, secure podcast appearances, or establish relationships with influential media personalities. By the end of our VIP Networking Day, you'll feel empowered, energized, and ready to conquer the world of networking. Say goodbye to wasted time and missed opportunities. With our tailored approach, you'll unlock the door to funding success, captivating podcast episodes, or media exposure and propel your business forward. Because this is SO important and so easy to fix….the elevator pitch itself…for starters…..I want you to sign up for the 30-minute complimentary session before you step out there and start pitching yourself to anyone…..let me give you quick tips that can be the difference between getting to pitch your idea or being totally shut out and ignored…..so go to www.melissallarena.com/sessions today....the VIP day are limited and may not be right for you right now but the free sessions are available today…no reason not to share your pitch with me.   About Melissa Llarena   I'm a bestselling author (learn more on www.fertileideas.com), imagination coach behind the Fertile Imagination to Networking Success Group Coaching Program, consultant, speaker, contributor to ForbesWomen articles that have garnered 4 million-plus views, and the podcast host of the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. Featured guests include GaryVee, Beth Comstock, Suzy Batiz, David Meltzer, and hundreds of other unconventional thinkers. Melissa has been featured in the WSJ, Business Insider, Fox Business, CNN Money, The Huffington Post, and other publications. She holds a psychology degree from NYU, an MBA from the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth, and a Transformational Coaching Academy certificate and is training to become a meditation practitioner. Melissa lives in Austin, Texas, with her husband and three sons (one singleton and a set of identical twins).   Quotes, that can change your perspective:   “First impressions happen one time, and yes, you can totally turn it around, but you're a mom founder. The time you spent making that first impression, the guts it took to put yourself out there, is something that you're now going to have to work up to yet again.” “When it comes to being a mom founder or being a mom with a business, it is urgent that you really, really stay sharp in terms of coming up with unexpected or new or shortcut ways to reach out to everyone and anyone.” “If you want to do business on your own terms as you have opted to as a mom founder, you don't want to not be yourself when you're doing business. That was part of the purpose of owning your own thing along with solving a challenge, being mission-driven, and heart-centered.” “I know the effort it takes to think through a product, I know the effort it takes to see a product market fit, and I know the effort it's going to take to implement whatever it is that you promise to the people on your list.” SHARE this episode and elevate your business! Master effective networking and pitching by avoiding common mistakes and adopting personalized communication strategies. Make a lasting impression and build meaningful connections and start transforming your pitch today! Supporting Resources:   Schedule a free call to see if Fertile Imagination to Networking Success my signature program is the right fit: https://www.melissallarena.com/sessions/ Podcast: Mom Founder Imagination Hub: https://www.melissallarena.com/podcast/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MelissaLlarena/ Or, grab for free your copy of the “From Contact to Connection: The Mompreneur's Go-First Networking & Follow Up Playbook”: https://witty-thinker-2643.ck.page/21e52edb87  Subscribe and Review Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.  I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms.  TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Melissa: First impressions happen one time. And yes, you can totally turn around, but you're a Mom Founder. And what distinguishes you versus someone that might not have kids is the fact that that time you spent in making that first impression, the guts it took to put yourself out there, that is something that you're now gonna have to work up to yet again. And it is way harder to constantly fall down and get back up, fall down and get back up when you're navigating family life in parallel. 00:00:39 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're going to get to that next level in business, find the energy to keep going, and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover how mom founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood.  00:01:01 Melissa: Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out and stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm going to give you the mindset, methods and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening. 00:01:32 Melissa: Hey there, it's Melissa Llarena, your host of the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. So we're gonna tackle today three avoidable mistakes that often mom founders make right when they begin to outreach their network or talk to complete strangers so that their business can grow. So three avoidable mistakes. Let me share a story first.  00:01:57 Melissa: I had a wonderful conversation the other day with a mom who was so psyched about this TV show that she wants to put out into the world. And she has an outreach list of organizations and different individuals in those organizations that she wants to pitch her idea to. So she's thinking companies like Lego, companies like Hasbro, you get the drip. And here's the thing. She was so excited about her elevator pitch. I mean, she was just so ready to roll with it, and I wanted to hear it. 00:02:32 Melissa: So of course, she went ahead, she memorized it, and I can tell that she spent probably hours upon hours really refining it with her peers. And she said it, and then I kind of felt these like internal crickets. And that brings me to today's episode. I don't want you to make the same mistakes that this super excited, well-intentioned Mom Founder made. 00:03:00 Melissa: The mistake was the following. Once I heard her pitch, I was like, okay, first of all, who was I supposed to be? Like there's some key questions that as you are putting yourself out there, pitching your business idea to potential investors or partners, that you've got to ask yourself. And if you don't actually think about what you're going to say and whether or not is going to resonate with the other person, then you've completely failed. So that was point number one. 00:03:32 Melissa: Who was I supposed to be? I had no idea. I was just listening to the pitch and I was like, wow. My hair felt like wind was blowing, but it was kind of like hot air because I wasn't sure what I was supposed to prioritize in terms of the information that she shared. The other question was, okay, so now that I'm this person in her case, marketing director, let's imagine, then what do you perceive to be so important to me? And in terms of the pitch that this person shared, I didn't really catch that. I wasn't able to discern what she perceived to be important to me.  00:04:08 Melissa: Some other questions. Why would I, someone working for an organization, want to bring on or support a TV show that's not addictive? Now, this was super specific to the sort of content that she had worked really hard on. However, you have to understand, there might be one or two words in your pitch to an investor or a partner that simply don't make sense given that person's key performance indicators. I would want a TV show that's addictive so that this way kids watch it over and over again.  00:04:46 Melissa: But again, if you hadn't done your homework prior to pitching, you might miss that point. And here's something else that came up when her and I were on a 30-minute complimentary session where I was listening to her pitch, this idea. So what problem are you trying to solve in my company? And I think that is something that we often do not think or consider prior to working on our super fancy put together pitches. It is so contextual. And that's why we are here today.  00:05:20 Melissa: So the three avoidable mistakes that you will want to be mindful of if you are pitching a business idea to an organization or to someone that you admire, begin in this very, very clear manner. Know the decision maker. That's one of the three mistakes. So I originally began sharing a bit about the questions I was asking myself after she shared her pitch and I shared with her and I helped guide her. 00:05:51 Melissa: But at the same time, that is the most important thing. You might think to yourself that, okay, my product is amazing, my service is compelling, but at the end of the day, you're talking to a human being that has a filter that is quite precise. Now, if you've pitched an organization, and you have considered an investor profile as like your go-to, who am I pitching sort of document. That's amazing. It's a start, but every single human being with whom you interact is going to have a completely different set of priorities. And you want to be mindful of that.  00:06:32 Melissa: So you want to really know what are the job titles that you're going to encounter pertaining to this pitch? What's common. For example, is this someone that's going to be in a job for two years, 10 years, or six months? You can tell really depending on the functional area of expertise, there's some functions like marketing where the timeframe is really low. What might that mean? That might mean that whatever outcome or whatever sort of impact you intend to make has to be in the very near short term. All of this is to be considered in your pitch. And all of this is to be considered as you go through an outreach networking list.  00:07:15 Melissa: Now, I might be calling it networking. You might call it biz dev. You might call it sales, looking for strategic partnerships. I really see it as one in the same. Why is that? Because you want to find someone with whom you're almost going the same way. It's almost like a hitchhiker. Not to say you do that and that is not safe, but let's just imagine that you're there and you're on a highway. Think locally, wherever you might be, and you're heading in one direction. You're heading north. You want to be sure that you figure out who else is heading north. You would not want to get into a car and start chatting with the driver and saying, oh, hey, why are we going south? I want to go north. That is a lot of effort.  00:08:05 Melissa: So what does that mean? That means that you have to know the person that you are reaching out to on that long list that you probably spent hours trying to put together as a Mom Founder, which i.e. is time away from the kids. And you want to be sure that you're both going in the same direction and you are speaking their language. That brings me to the third big mistake I have noticed when it comes to going through a list of contacts that you would like to pitch your business idea, whether it is for funding or it might be for media placement.  00:08:40 Melissa: It's really interchangeable in terms of the people that you are going to reach out to. But at the end of the day, every single person has something that matters to them that might not be so obvious to you, especially. And this is what I've noticed so much because these are the mom founders that I have partnered with through these years. It's folks that are entering a brand new market, folks that for them, maybe you know, their background was working in one sector, and this is a new sector. 00:09:11 Melissa: So what does that mean? That means that you have to understand what matters to that person and what matters in that market. And what does that mean? That means that if you're talking to someone in procurement, they have a different set of words that they use to quantify success versus if you're talking to someone in finance, versus if you're talking to someone that is at a different level.  00:09:37 Melissa:  So I think it's really important that not just knowing who the decision maker is and actually looking up whether it's LinkedIn, and that's just surface level. There's a lot more research that needs to go into this if you're going through a list where you're asking for thousands of dollars or millions of dollars in investment, but asking at least, let me look at their career background to have a good sense of how they might approach this particular project. Right?  00:10:07 Melissa: Okay, so knowing the decision maker, the second mistake is not understanding what matters to that person. And it could really rely on their functional area of expertise. Again, you're the mom founder, you're an expert in your product or service. However, here's the thing, the person that you're talking to, they have a lot of priorities and they have a lot of different ways of calling success and you need to speak the same language. Otherwise it is like straight up a tower of babble situation. 00:10:37 Melissa: And you do not want that because we all know what happened. Things crumbled and things did not go so well. Okay, so again, what does this person really care about? Right, so knowing what really matters, what do they care about? What is it that they actually call what they care about? So that is mistake number two. 00:10:58 Melissa: So these are the three mistakes that I want you to avoid. And I'll get to number three. When you have a list of contacts that you're going through because you just came up with an invention or you have a business solution or offering that you are ready for funding or to get funding, right? Okay, so mistake number three, contextualizing your pitch. So back to the first story.  00:11:22 Melissa: So there I was listening to this beautiful pitch. I mean, we're talking about perfection. The words were exciting. Everything that she said was compelling to the right person in the right context. However, this person didn't have the expertise of a particular industry. So as you go through your list of contacts and you're there pitching your idea to different organizations or people, there's different things that are going on in different sectors. 00:11:55 Melissa: For example, let's just imagine that you are pitching to one sector and in that sector, you have no idea that this concept that your TV show would not be addictive is absolutely not going to work and not at all the key to success when right now you have a lot of people who's attention is disparate, right? Is in a lot of different places. So here you are saying that, yeah, they're gonna get like one hit of my TV show and that'll be enough and it won't be addictive. Meanwhile, let's imagine as an industry, you need to get people to keep coming back because that is how you organize your ad campaigns with your advertisers, then it's not gonna lay quite right.  00:12:46 Melissa: Okay, so let me get to the point as clearly as possible. Here's the third mistake, so contextualizing your pitch. I wanna share something with you that I learned back in advertising. So I used to work in ad agencies. This was now at least 13 years ago. And I remember working on the IBM account, working on the SAP account, and I remember being told back then, you need to know more about what's happening and what's important to IBM and the tech space than your clients. Same thing with SAP. 00:13:18 Melissa: What does that mean to you, a Mom Founder who has this glorious list that you want to go through but you don't want to burn because you just spent so much time figuring out who the right people might be to shepherd your idea in a big organization. So what does that mean? That means that you need to understand if you need to understand what the drivers are in that sector. You need to understand if there's like new competitors that are just really eroding or just really eating into a market share. You need to also understand how to contextualize what it is that you're offering in the context of their existing portfolio of offerings.  00:14:03 Melissa: Okay, so I said a lot there. There's a lot that needs to happen before you start calling people. I totally get that you might have an investor profile. I get that you have partners that believe so much in your product that they've desired and they've worked for free till this point. But you're going to waste your time, waste your effort and your energy. And I know as a Mom Founder, particularly, you don't got a lot of energy if you do not do this due diligence to a point where at nauseam, you know more about someone's business than they might. 00:14:41 Melissa: However, back to my advertising days, you don't want to show up as arrogant because we always would say, you know more about your business than we do. But that wasn't always the case if I'm being really honest about it. And in your situation, if you're looking to really make a great impression on an organization because you want to partner with them, again, you both have to be going in the same direction. You need to totally understand who you're talking to in terms of how long they're going to be there, how you might want to angle the value that you bring to the table and where you fit in terms of the context of their portfolio. 00:15:20 Melissa: But at the same time you just want to be sure that you have done your homework to a point where again you feel confident and competent that working with you is gonna leave them better off than not working with you in whatever capacity that might be and It takes a lot of practice and I wanted to just kind of go to the very top, your elevator pitch might not be enough. It might not be what is necessary. Every single person that you're talking to, it might completely throw someone off because they'll think that you're talking into some sort of recording, especially if you've recorded it. 00:15:57 Melissa: So you want to be sure that you also bring some stories because oftentimes those resonate a lot more than just statistics and having the right leadership team in place, which I tend to hear a lot. Okay, so here's the story. So risks of not doing your homework. This is personal in the sense that as a podcaster, I'm sure you can imagine how many times I am pitched in terms of podcast guests. And the other day I was looking in my inbox and I noticed someone was pitching me. They were a PR professional so they should have known better. However in terms of time budget, etc., they provided a very generic pitch.  00:16:43 Melissa: So imagine in your situation, right? Again, back to you being a Mom Founder, having a list, having finite time and energy, having spent so much effort upfront, trying to figure out who you're gonna reach out to, but not having done enough effort in terms of researching the three things that I shared with you in terms of the actual people that you're talking to, what actually matters to them, and then also how you fit in the context of like a company's portfolio as an example, and why partnering with you is better than not.  00:17:19 Melissa: Let's imagine this, with this person, this PR person, she was pitching me, again, this is the Mom Founder Imagination Hub podcast. She was pitching me a guy, which 100% I have had men on this podcast, like James Altucher, Gary Vee, et cetera. But she was pitching me a guy that was really all about financial market solutions, having nothing to do with entrepreneurship. And I was just like, what the heck is this? Like, is this even for me? Like you don't want to be that person that emails someone a pitch or jumps on the phone, I know old school, but hey, it still works, and you completely are talking, but the person on the other side is like, why are you calling me?  00:18:08 Melissa: So that is what was happening to me. And that story basically wants to just like reaffirm in you the fact that don't waste your time by not knowing who you're reaching out to at the individual level. And I know it takes a lot of work, a lot of effort. But here's the thing, if you don't do it, this is what happens. All that money, right? And if you think about your time as money, is wasted in terms of the effort that you put to just creating that outreach list. That's one.  00:18:41 Melissa: Here's the other thing, you're gonna burn a bridge because it's going to show that you're not as thoughtful as you truly are. And if you're a Mom Founder, one thing I know about the ones I've worked with, like you are so thoughtful. I mean, when it comes to like the logistics of your family and how you went about, you know, doing market research for your product or figuring out market product fit, I know you're thoughtful. So you wanna be sure that that reputation precedes you, right?  So again, you've gotta do that extra research. You wanna be sure that you are resonating with the person. So you don't want to burn through that contact list if you don't have to. 00:19:21 Melissa: Here's the other idea. Let's imagine that you make that mistake, kind of like that PR agency, right? That was sending me a very random podcast guest proposal. You're gonna have to then, if you're really interested in partnering with a Lego or with a Hasbro, et cetera, you're gonna have to then go back and do some triage. And it's not always possible to like resurrect from some blow paw like that. 00:19:44 Melissa: So I wanna just say, here's the other thing. First impressions happen one time. And yes, you can totally turn around, but you're a Mom Founder. And what distinguishes you versus someone that might not have kids is the fact that that time you spent in making that first impression, the guts it took to put yourself out there, that is something that you're now gonna have to like work up to yet again. And it is way harder to constantly fall down and get back up, fall down and get back up when you're navigating family life in parallel. Just this morning to give you an example.  00:20:27 Melissa: So I have all these podcast episode recordings today. And my son then says to me at 5:00 AM, mind you, mom, I think I have a fever. And I looked at him and I was like, please do not have a fever. That's just like one of the ups and downs. We'll call that a down that is so natural to you that other people might not experience, but your business has to keep going on. So, you know, we have finite energy and finite abilities to get back down and get back up, figure out new ways, different patterns, right? Use our imagination and try other or alternative paths forward. 00:21:08 Melissa: If you've got to do the same thing for being a mom as you do an entrepreneurship, you've got to be sure that you are somehow preventing all of that struggle where you can. You need to be a sane mom. That's what I'm saying. So again, this is avoidable. That's why I have it in this episode. And I really hope that you take it to heart because there's so much that's at stake. If you don't actually consider those three mistakes that I share.  00:21:40 Melissa: So I don't wanna leave you hanging. I think this is so important. I wanna be of service to you because I think that it takes so much guts to just like leave your job, for example, or start a business, especially as a mom. It also is absolutely beautiful that you want to do something that's mission driven. Those are the moms that I work with and I help in terms of really navigating networking and building relationships so that you're in the right rooms, having the right conversations, getting the money that your business idea deserves, that I wanna do this for you. So hear me out.  00:22:17 Melissa: Okay, now let's just imagine that you are in a car right now, so you're driving. So what I will have you do is absolutely bookmark this conversation, but write this down when you have an opportunity in the event that you're on the move. So I offer something called a VIP day. It's a three-hour Zoom session during which time we are going to work through your contact list. But here's the thing. It's even better than that. 00:22:45 Melissa: Not only are we going to work through your contact list, but prior to jumping on Zoom, I'm going to give you some homework that's going to help you thoughtfully not just put together that contact list, but approach your research so that this way you can avoid these three mistakes. I'm also going to make sure that as you approach the different people during our time, that three-hour Zoom time frame, that you're leading with what is going to resonate the most based on a number of criteria that for me and in use with my clients have worked in the past. 00:23:24 Melissa: I mean, it's so predictable in terms of some of the priorities that people actually have, but it's not always obvious on LinkedIn because sometimes people are not that upfront in terms of their agendas. And I'm not using that in a negative way, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying. So there's other sources of research that I will share with you also on that three hours Zoom session. It's a VIP day. Also, it's really about making sure that we have woken up your imagination. That is the name of this podcast. And I stand on that.  00:23:58 Melissa: When it comes to being a Mom Founder or being a mom with a business, it is urgent that you really, really stay sharp in terms of coming up with unexpected or new or shortcut ways to reach out to everyone and anyone. And again, relationships is absolutely critical when it comes to building your business and making sure that your message gets out to as many human beings as possible. So you wanna be sure that you're doing it from a place of expansive thinking. You're doing it from a place of, okay, this person is gonna expect me to reach out to them on, as an example, Instagram, but I'm gonna come in through this side door, right? Which has worked for me and my clients as well. 00:24:44 Melissa: So let me share an example. I had a client that actually wanted to reach out to insurance companies. And it was really interesting because this was completely new to her. She owns a nonprofit. And so she reached out to an insurance company and she was baffled that the person on the other side of the email got back to her almost like in an hour, okay? He got back to her in an hour. Why was that? It was because she realized that this person would be, A, in a position of power.  00:25:13 Melissa: So people do want to be helpful. So you want to make sure you're asking the right people who can help you. But then at the same time, her email was personal. It resonated, and it was thoughtful. It was in alignment with what's important to an insurance organization. And she had to do some research in order to uncover precisely what that was in this market. Sorry to say, but sometimes different times of the year, different things are important and different trends will influence whether or not what was important, you know, last trend is in season this trend.  00:25:45 Melissa: So again, there's a lot that needs to happen, but we can cover that during the three hours together over Zoom. Here's what else happens during that three hour session, the VIP session with me for Mom Founders. So you and I are gonna roll up our sleeves. Like literally, if I have long sleeves, or metaphorically, if I do not, we're going to actually start emailing and reaching out to people live because I need to see, like, what do your subject lines actually say? Are they generic or compelling? How is it that you're positioning what you intend behind the conversation with that contact, right?  00:26:20 Melissa: So it's about authenticity, but it's also about being direct and infusing your personality. Because if you wanna do business on your own terms, as you have opted to as a mom founder, you don't want to not be yourself when you're doing business. Like that was part of the purpose of owning your own thing, along with solving a challenge, along with being mission driven and heart centered and wanting to see impact in the slice of the world that matters to you. 00:26:51 Melissa: So here we go. Call for you to reach out to me so I can help you so that you do not make those mistakes. You do not burn through a list of contacts if you have a business idea or already a business in market that you want to get funding for, or you want to leverage some sort of strategic partnership, be sure that you take advantage of this. And it is the following. So I do have those VIP days, but this offer right now is for free. 00:27:20 Melissa: Go to melissallarena.com/sessions. You will have an opportunity to apply for a 30-minute complimentary session, during which time I'm going to help you by role playing and hearing what you have to offer in terms of your business pitch, in terms of your origin story, in terms of what you intend out of a conversation with a decision maker, right? All pertaining to your business. So go ahead to melissallarena.com/sessions. There is an application and here's the reason why an application is going to be absolutely helpful to you.  00:28:02 Melissa: When you start to put pen to paper or technically type out your answers in the application, you also start to clarify what you need to happen in terms of the people that you wanna talk to, in terms of your very best next steps. And in terms of your own business, putting pen to paper has been the absolute life-giving solution for me when it comes to ironing out my thoughts. And it's better for you to do that on my application than to do it in front of someone that can give you money.  00:28:38 Melissa: So go ahead, melisallarena.com/sessions, and you will see the link here. What I invite you to really consider is, okay, bring forth your story, bring with you your idea in terms of the investor profile. Be sure that you tell me who I'm supposed to be. I want you to know also what is going to be important to me and how whatever it is that you've got is going to help me and fix in my existing portfolio. So have that already in mind, be prepared. It is going to be a great session. And that is for free. That is 30-minute session for free.  00:29:20 Melissa: At that time, at the very end, after you have your answers, I will absolutely invite you to join me during one of the VIP sessions. Those VIP sessions, I only do three spots every single month. I'm sure you can understand as a mom with kids yourself, what I do is really, really important in terms of helping moms specifically as flexibly as possible. So it could be an evening time or a weekend time or chunk of time. And for me, three hours each month is what I can do in terms of VIP days.  00:29:58 Melissa: You get to choose if it's the right fit, I get to choose if you're the right fit and I can help you and we will take it from there. So I'm really excited about these VIP sessions, but more than that, I wanna hear from you and I don't want you to make a mistake in terms of burning through a contact list. I know the effort it takes to think through a product. I know the effort it takes to see a product market fit. And I know the effort it's going to take to implement whatever it is that you promise to the people on your list.  00:30:29 Melissa: So be sure that you take advantage of the 30-minute session with me. It is complimentary. You'll have the link here. It'll also be in the show notes if you are just listening to this conversation. And then we could certainly talk about whether a VIP day is the right next step for you. No strings attached. You are very welcome to attend a 30-minute session with me. I want to be sure that we avoid as many mistakes as possible when it comes to working through an outreach list. I want you to have so much success.  00:31:03 Melissa: And until Tuesday, let me know what you got out of this conversation, you are more than welcome to leave some comments. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're also welcome to share this with a friend, because here's the thing, Mom Founders know other Mom Founders. And if anyone is interested in actually pitching investors or securing strategic partnerships with people in different organizations or different organizations, you want to be sure that they have the greatest odds of success.  00:31:31 Melissa: So go ahead and share this episode. It's also in audio. And if you're interested in that 30-minute consult, it is available to you. And no strings attached, as I mentioned. So thank you for this conversation. And thank you. Until next Tuesday, go ahead and subscribe. Follow me officially, because next Tuesday, we're going to go through an actual interview with an investor. Stay tuned. Signing off, Melissa Llarena.

You're sitting across from your teenager at the kitchen table. Now that you finally have their undivided attention, you want to talk about an important issue they are facing. Unfortunately, things get tense quickly. Their eyes roll, you get frustrated, and soon they are looking for an escape from this conversation. You sit dumbfounded thinking, "How do I raise my teen to love Christ in a world that is doing everything possible to pull them away?"In this episode of Candid Conversations, host Jonathan welcomes back Melissa Kruger, Vice President of Discipleship Programming at the Gospel Coalition. Melissa is also an accomplished author, having written multiple books, including “Growing Together,” “Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood,” and the popular children's book “Wherever You Go, I Want You to Know.”During this conversation, Jonathan and Melissa discuss her latest book, “Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age.” The book provides practical guidance and biblical insights for parents navigating the challenges of raising teenagers in today's culture. Melissa shares her personal journey and the inspiration behind writing this important resource.Listen to this Candid Conversation as Melissa Kruger sheds light on parenting teens with hope, faith, and wisdom. Whether you're a parent, grandparent, or youth leader, this episode offers valuable insights for nurturing the next generation.To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/CandidFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpodInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpodTwitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpodTRANSCRIPT:This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 248: Parenting with Hope:  Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age: Melissa Kruger.[00:06] Jonathan: Well, today I have a repeat guest. It is Melissa Kruger. She is the vice president of discipleship programming at the Gospel Coalition. She is the author of multiple books, including Growing Together; Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood; and the popular children's book, Wherever You Go, I Want You to Know, which we have gotten for our son, and then we've had his teachers write inscriptions each year, whoever his teacher is. And I think you have a special book that allows for that.Her husband Mike, who has also been on the podcast, is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary. And they and their three children are in Charlotte, North Carolina. Melissa, thank you so much for coming back onto Candid Conversations.[00:52] Melissa: Great! Thanks for having me back.[00:54] Jonathan: Okay, you've got a new book out called Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age. Now, I imagine this book is flying off the shelves, and you've probably shattered sales records.[01:12] Melissa: I don't think so, right?[01:14] Jonathan: It should. I think this is something the church hears a lot about and it's always so helpful to have books that are written from a helpful, biblical perspective and giving people the foundations and the equipping and the reminders that we can often forget.So tell us a little bit about the journey on Parenting With Hope. What got the start of the book?[01:48] Melissa: I was approached by a publisher who had read my book, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, and they said, “We'd really like you to take some of these principles and apply it to parenting teens. And we want it trade book form, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, is a Bible study for women, I wrote that one for a friend, for her baby shower. It wasn't intended for publishing; I was writing it for her. So this one really they came with the question and I was very unsure of myself. I've raised three teenagers, and so it was kind of that, ooh, and I was just out of the season. But what I realized when I did Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, I couldn't write that book now, I think, because I'm not in that moment. The teen years are very fresh to me. I saw tons. I still have one teenager, she's 17. I have a 17-year-old, a 20-year-old, and a 23-year-old and so still it's fresh to me. But I also realized no one's sixty who can write about what they did about cell phones because they didn't exist. They can't talk about what did they do with social media. They can't talk about some of these sports and activities because it was totally different twenty years ago. And so I realized, okay, it's probably a good thing to have someone fresh on the season. And I also realized, the second thing, I was a high school math teacher in I always say my other life, and so I had taken a lot of teen development classes. And I realized this really did help me in the parenting of teens, like there's a lot of common grace insights by people who have studied just what works and what doesn't, and I've realized I had those things in my back pocket. And we do that a lot with young children, we read all the developmental milestones, we know what your 2-year-old should be doing, what your 3-year-old should be doing. When's the last time you read a developmental milestone about your 9-year-old or your 10-year-old? And we stop being learners of what kids are able to do and what they should be doing and so I wanted to put some of that in the book as well.[04:15] Jonathan: Okay, so I love how you break down the book. So it's broken down into three parts. You give the basics, which you call “The Foundations of a Christian Home”; The Battle: Fighting for the Better Portion”; which we'll get into that. And then “The Blessing: Cultivating a Home Where Teens Thrive.” Talks us through a little bit of the Part 1.[04:44] Melissa: I might come off as, well, we all know this, right? [04:48] Jonathan: Right. If you're in the church, you should know and understand that. But—[04:51] Melissa: Exactly. Exactly. And in a lot of ways this is being a Christian 101. But I remind parents of it because I think sometimes we get so bogged down with all the things we're not doing as parents that I want to remind them the most important thing you do as a human is be in God's Word, be in prayer, and be in the church. Doing that is going to already set you ahead of parents all around the world. I mean, that is such a gift to your child to be a parent who is regularly in-taking from the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is not just another book on the shelf; it's actually divine wisdom. We have the ability to tap into divine wisdom. And then secondly we have not just divine wisdom, we have divine help because we can call on God to do what we cannot do, we cannot save our child, we cannot change our child. We cannot make them do really much of anything, but God can work in ways that we can't understand.And then the community of the church is just something that, I mean, I think we're seeing with the epidemic of teen loneliness and anxiety and isolation, all these things. The church is this institution that, guess what, it answers that. It's this welcoming place where you have 80-year-olds and you have 8-year-olds. And so I don't think we can talk about parenting without talking about what's the foundation of our hope. It's actually that God's Word is true, and living in light of God's Word is hopeful, and we're not left alone on the journey. So that's the Battle. The battle really talks about our battles. And again, this is a book about being the parent of a teen. It's not a book about how to make your teen perfect. If that book exists, that's the—[06:54] Jonathan: If it does, you should burn it.[06:56] Melissa: Yeah, that's the Holy Spirit's job is to change us and make us different. And so the second part is the battle, I think we often think is sex, drugs, rock and roll or some other things we're trying to prevent our teen from. I would say it's actually good things robbing us of the best things. The battle is with our own idolatry. As parents, we are all coming into this game with hopes and dreams for our kids, and sometimes those dreams turn idolatrous. I focus on scholarship and achievement, on sports and activities, and then on social acceptance. I think those are the cultural idols we have in the West that are pressing upon us as parents, and we have to battle about all of those.[07:38] Jonathan: And that's what I love about the book is that it's not prescriptions, right? When people are struggling with their kids, what do they want? Just tell me what to do so that this will stop or so I can take this away, right? And I think the way that your book is written is that it's not about if you do A, B will happen. Now, there's a little bit of element of that because you just mentioned the foundations earlier, which is, well, you really need to be doing these practices, but you don't necessarily think, oh, being in church and being in the Word and being in prayer, you don't necessarily feel the direct correlation to your parenting, but it is there.I have friends who have raised their kids the exact same way and one rebels and the other one is a blessing to their family. And then it's like, what did we do wrong? Your husband was speaking yesterday about the paradox of God is sovereign over all things, and yet we're still called to be good parents. And so there's that. We don't fully understand the mystery of that, but we know what we're called to, and so we have to walk it out.[09:14] Melissa: That's right. As a parent, I am called to fight my idolatry. I'm actually not called to control my child. And so often what you see if we go into control mode when we're fearful, and the Bible says trust and obey. And I would say obey and trust. And so you follow God's call and then you trust. You trust that you're doing everything you can to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel in front of the Lord and in front of your kids, and then you have to trust. And you will only have the ability to trust if you're building on the foundation. So this is where it always goes back to that foundation. And I'm talking about how to be a human, honestly. I mean, if you want to know how to succeed in your place of work, oh, you need the Word, you need prayer, you need the church. If you want to know how to be single in the life of the church, you need the Word, you need prayer, you need the church. But I think I say it again and again because it's Psalm 1. Yeah, I mean, “Blessed is the man who doesn't like in … who doesn't sit …” all that stuff. Oh, what does he do? “His delight is in the law of the Lord, and on it he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by a stream. Whatever he does prospers.” This is wisdom for life. And so I definitely think we have to start there, and then we have to be battling our own idols.And then the last section on the blessing is how do we create homes of acceptance, availability, and affection? Those words have to be in our world today. Acceptance does not mean an acceptance of sin, but it means an acceptance of who they are. And what I mean by that is we see a lot of curated children. And what I mean by that is parents trying to make the perfect child who plays the sport, who plays the instrument, who has an amazing GPA, who gets into the Ivy Leagues and all this stuff because that's a representation of me is what we're really trying to do.[11:12] Jonathan: Right. It's a reflection, yeah.[11:13] Melissa: So rather than saying, you know, my kid's not that great at school, but I can teach hard work. Even if they're not going to be a lawyer or a doctor, that's okay. And so that's what I mean by acceptance, accepting who the Lord is creating them to be and letting that glorify Him, whatever it might be. [11:33] Jonathan: Yeah, there's a lot of this element of caught versus taught, right? So especially as you think about the idolatry and what you prioritize in your life, your kids are by default looking at you, watching you. You're one of the greatest sources of influence on them, and so they are going to model themselves after what mom and dad prioritize. And the funny thing is that when parents look down the track they say, “Why are they like this?” And it's like, sometimes it's a little bit of look in the mirror. You know, what were they catching, even if you were teaching in a different trajectory and direction. Okay, so acceptance. What about availability?[12:17] Melissa: Yeah. I talk about this. I say you want to be available but you want to understand your limitations. Look, I mean, parents cannot be at everything. And I actually believe it's helpful for our kids to know that they are not the center of our universe. They do not have the gravitational weight to bear us, I like to say. Like the Earth cannot support the Sun revolving around it, it was never intended to, we are not created to revolve around our children. We are created to revolve around God, and we are helping them do the same. And kids who grow up in a home where the parent is rooted and grounded in the Lord, that takes an amazing burden off of them. You've heard the phrase “You're only as happy as your least happy child.” I think that is like poor least-happy child. No. My contentment and joy, where are they supposed to come from? They're supposed to be rooted in the Lord. Why are we supposed to be content with what we have? Because He has said, “Never will I leave or forsake you.” That's where our contentment rests. And we have to be people fighting for that as parents, to free our kids up from our own maybe tendency to put our hopes and dreams in them.[13:36] Jonathan: And then affection. A home of warmth.[13:39] Melissa: I read an article somewhere recently. I can't remember where it was; it was in the secular paper, and they said, really what you do as a parent doesn't matter, but if you love them, that makes a difference. And I was kind of like, huh. That's really interesting because I do think there's a lot to that. I think, you know, it's a little bit empty because I think love—[14:03] Jonathan: Well, one's usually reflected in the other, right?[14:05] Melissa: Yeah. Exactly. And you need truth to guide what love is, so there's that. But I did once hear—this was on the Oprah Winfrey Show a million years ago when that show was still on—she was interviewing I believe it was Toni Morrisson. And Toni Morrisson said one thing she had learned when a child walks into the room, she said, light up when that child walks in the room. And she said what kids tend to get when you walk into the room is your critical gaze. They tend to get, huh, your shirt's not tucked in. Hey, make sure you're getting ready for this. And this gets even worse in the teen years, because look, they're cute when they're walking in at two, so you might light up just because they're so cute.[14:50] Jonathan: It's worn off, yeah.[14:52] Melissa: Yeah, when they're walking in pimply and smelly and dirty, and they haven't showered in a week, you still need to light up when they walk. And I think there's something about that that will translate for the rest of their lives. That they know “I am deeply loved.” Light up even when they've done something wrong. Our correction should not be coldness. Our correction can still be full of warmth. And so we want to light up when these people walk in the room because they're made in the image of God. They have been given to us for this time to raise, and so we want to shower them with affection. And there can be wrong views of affection like trying to buy them. There are wrong ways. But I'm just talking about genuine love and interest in a person; that's always going to be a great basis for a child to go into the world with.[15:42] Jonathan: Okay, let's talk a little bit about how the gospel shapes our approach in parenting. What are the biblical principles that should guide us as we're raising children?[15:58] Melissa: The first is that I'm the oldest sinner in the room usually, so I'm expecting my 12-year-old to have their whole act together at twelve. Wow, that's pretty ungracious of me, right, because here I am at fifty and I don't have my act together. And so I think that one of the ways that parents can lead is to be the first to apologize. I always say my response is my responsibility. And so if I—let's say a kid's done something wrong, but I manage their wrongness by yelling and losing my temper and being impatient and unkind, I've got to own that. That's on me. I can still hold them to a standard while holding myself to a standard, and so we have to do that.And so I say one way grace-based homes begin is by being the chief apologizer in your home. Own it. And you know what? The kids will learn. They will learn from that and they will be able to give good apologies in their life. And you will benefit from it. I've had all of my kids come to me and be like, “Hey, I'm sorry I acted that way about that.” They did it on their own accord. I think it just became the conversation of the household that was safe to do. It was going to be met with love; it wasn't going to be met with the silent treatment, all of those things.And so I think a home with grace is going to be a home with apologies. It's going to be a home that accepts that failure is going to happen. I mean, the Lord's Prayer presupposes, “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,” so there's going to be sin. We're living flesh on flesh in these homes. And so it presupposes that we're going to need grace, but it also presupposes that there is a standard. So we do not lower standards. We keep the standards, but we offer correction when the standards has not been kept, and we offer love and grace in those moments as well.[17:57] Jonathan: Well, and it's a requirement of being a disciple of Jesus is being a forgiver. And yeah, why not start at home—not just forgiving, but asking for forgiveness. And I think you're right, it sets the tone for the family. But I think we can get caught up in, well, I'm the parent and I've got to be the one in control and in charge and I'm just giving directives to the little ones. It's hard, right? I mean, it's hard to admit to a little child that you've wronged them. Because you just want to say, who are you? Who are you to hold me accountable? But it's the Lord's holding us accountable.Let's elaborate a little bit on principles of prescriptions. We've talked a little bit about that, but as that relates to parenting.[18:52] Melissa: Yeah. I definitely think your principles in parenting can stay very much the same as kids go from two to twenty, meaning certain principles like, oh, my child is a sinner in need of grace. That's a principle. My child's a sinner and needs correction. That's a principle. Now, how I go about the practice of that correction is going to change greatly when they're two from when they're twelve, and if we don't make those changes, we're going to find ourselves with very frustrated teenagers.And so one example I like to say is when your 2-year-old makes a mistake, normally you need to offer correction right away, so if they do something wrong, they need it immediately because they're not going to remember tomorrow what you're talking about.[19:36] Jonathan: That's right exactly.[19:37] Melissa: They're in a different little universe where every moment is a new moment. Whereas with your 12-year-old, when they come in hot, and you know we all see 12-year-olds come in hot, they're slamming doors, they're in a mood, their hormones are going whatever. Right then is probably actually not the best time to offer correction or even confront them with, hey, you were really rude to me.I like to say if my friend came in and slammed the door my first question would not be like, “Hey, that's disrespectful to me.” My first question would be, “Hey, how are you doing? Is everything okay?” Or if my husband came in. Like I'd ask a question. And I think our teens need that from us. They need us to live with them in an understanding way, and often we're real caught up in our pride and how we deserve to be talked to. And that's just very us-centered versus, “Hey, is everything okay?” And maybe even to just say, later in the day, like 6:00 PM, 7:00 PM, when they've had some time to cool off, to go in and say, ‘Hey, you came in, you seemed upset today. Do you want to talk about it?” They may say yes, they may say no. And then later on, things will soften. They will soften to be able to say, “What would have been a good way to come in today?” That's a better time to have that conversation. And it may even be the next week. That's a better way to have that conversation than right away. So I think we had immediate kind of discipline when they were young, and it's really about applying wisdom to how and what we're going to correct. Thankfully, we do not have someone following us around all day correcting every little thing we do. I think sometimes parents of teens think, I've got four years left. I've got to get this kid all sorted.[21:20] Jonathan: To be ready for the world.[21:21] Melissa: You don't. If you saw my teen's bedroom, you'd be like, “Wow, she's a terrible parent. They are a complete and utter wreck.” And I just chose that was a battle I wasn't going to fight. But certain things, I wanted them to be truthful with me, I wanted them to have character, I wanted us to be able to have conversations. And if that meant I had to deal with messy floors, I was going to deal with messy floors on there. And they are. They lived up to that low expectation.[21:48] Jonathan: I'm sure they love hearing that. So you've introduced a topic that I wanted us to discuss, which is those stages of development and how do we parent differently when they're children versus teens. At what age is there a transformation? So when your child is little, you're really in kind of a protection mode in terms of what they consume media-wise or literature, whatever it is, right? We have a responsibility for protecting them and not just exposing them to all the horrible things out there.But as they get older, you and I talked about this in the beginning, but parents can tend to lean into one or the other camp, which is keeping the hyper bubble wrap around their child and never letting them be exposed to anything, or essentially letting them go out to the wolves at twelve, thirteen, whatever, and they are kind of almost drowning in “I need help. I wish someone would have kind of held my hand a little bit here.” That's a nuanced question, I know, but if we could talk about it in some generalities—and you can even use your own children as an example. Help parents who are at the tween period in their kids' lives. How do they navigate that helpfully?[23:21] Melissa: Yeah, I think that transition is tough and it's full of bumps and bruises. I called it in the book, I likened it to driving a stick-shift car. You have to be letting off the clutch the same time you're pressing the gas, but as you're learning, we're all going to stall and that's pretty normal. But I would just say as they're heading into these years, teens still need our involvement, but they do not need our over-involvement. And so as a parent, I think we really have to step back and say, “Okay, I'm going to be involved. I'm going to make sure they're not out drinking; they're not out doing illegal activities that could actually harm them. But I am not going to check their homework online.” Okay, see this was not even an option when I was a teacher—I don't know why parents are doing this. So I always think back to when I was teaching the parents never saw the grades until the grades came out. We had a midterm grade thing. I have people in my life who are checking their kids' grades constantly, and I'm like—[24:36] Jonathan: I didn't even know you could do that, actually. I've got little kids, so I'm, yeah, we're not in that camp yet.[24:41] Melissa: Well, come the teen years, they're finding out their kid missed one homework assignment and then they're all over them about it. I'm like, just let them bear that consequence. Let them bear the consequence of a zero. [24:52] Jonathan: That's a little bit of the helicopter/lawnmower parent mentality, right?[24:57] Melissa: That's right. And what happens is then that child never knows what it's like to deal with failure, and they actually need what I call safe failure. Because guess what? We all fail at things. Like we all make mistakes, we all do dumb things along the way. You want to protect them from huge failure, like you're going to go to jail for this.  But even things that we know are particularly damaging for their souls. So we want to protect them as best we can and have good rules in our home; we don't want rule-less homes; but the over-correction of being so over-involved.If you have teenagers, they should be packing their own lunch. They should be getting themselves—I don't wake any of my teens up, never have. They get themselves up, they knew to be at the family table for devotions at the time we always met. They could be responsible for them. And I never regret letting them be responsible for them. And so some of that is letting go of control and letting them, like again, like their room. Their rooms. Sometimes they did have to clean them.[26:09] Jonathan: You've got to live in it. They're the ones who have to live in it, right?[26:11] Melissa: And they have to … And they really will own it if we let them. Another big thing was we started early with our kids having them do chores and clean up the kitchen every night. But what Mike and I had to do, we had to leave the room, because yes, they would argue. Yes, they would get mad at one another. Yes, they would say, “I don't want to do it this way. Yes, it was excruciatingly slow and not well done. And I'd come in and I'd look at the counter and I thought, yeah, you'd feel the grit still on the counter, kids, and then do it again. Y'all get it right. And then we'd walk out because I couldn't handle the slowness at which they did it, but if I had not given them the space to do it and fail and not do it perfectly, they'd never learn. Where now they come home and they all know how to clean the kitchen. They know how to—and that's a gift when they go to college because they [overlapping voices] because my kids are like, “My roommates”—[27:04] Jonathan: And their future spouses.[27:06] Melissa: Yeah. “My roommates don't know how to clean the kitchen.” [27:09] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's steer into some of the battle things that are taking place. We, without having to explain, we live in a secular culture. How can parents maintain hope and raise their teens to follow Christ in just the age and day in which we live where there's the social pressures on sexuality and defining truth and those sorts of things. How do you kind of help navigate that water?[27:53] Melissa: Yeah, I think the earlier you can begin, the better. And some of this starts by having conversations about faith with your kids as young as you can. Mike and I were big believers in the catechism. There are different versions. We use the children's catechism. And every night at the family table we did it. What I love about a catechism is the kids talk; it's not just the parents talking. So it's about who made you? God. What else did God make? All things. Why did God make you and all things? For His glory. Okay, you've already set their framework in such a better place than most kids walking into elementary school just because they know they're made in the image of God and that they're made to glorify Him. So these things can start early. I think having those conversations along the way, and just, again, this is what we valued in our homes. We have to start valuing them young because if you start coming to your kid with, “Hey, God's Word is important” at age fifteen by you haven't modeled that by the way you live your life or by how you've been in it yourself, it's going to be hard to convince them that they should follow this ancient book. So I would say the best way to combat culture is to have the culture that Scripture encourages us to in the home. And to really know that what's happening in your home is actually what has the greatest impact on your kids, not the world, not their teachers, not their friends. Actually the studies show over and over again parental—what we do, which is kind of terrifying, we all should own it—what we do in the home is the biggest impact on how they are going to view certain things. It does not mean they will all come to faith. You can do everything right. We know it's the Spirit only that awakens people's hearts. But that—[29:48] Jonathan: Which takes a little bit of the pressure off in that category.[29:52] Melissa: Yes, exactly. But there are things we're teaching them like hard work and doing a job, knowing how to do a chore. Those are things that even non-Christians know how to work hard, and even non-Christians can live in certain outwardly moral ways that we can be trying to shape and mold our kids into, in prayer that the Spirit would make their hearts alive in a lot of ways.So I think we can be really fearful of culture. I think there's a lot to be concerned about. But what I will say is that when the Spirit opens our eyes, they can see, wow, culture is really empty. So my kids, I think they grew up in Christian school, but they've both been at large secular colleges and they just haven't been attracted to some of the worldly things because I think they know that, hey, the fellowship, the friendship of true believers is way better than this false, oh, I have to be drunk and do all these things for you to be my friend. Yeah, I don't think it's been as enticing because they've actually experienced good fellowship with believers throughout their lives and they've seen the benefit of that. So I always try to say fight the bad by giving them the better.[31:09] Jonathan: Yeah, I love that. Okay, two more areas I want us to just quickly dive into. One is navigating technology and social media, which again is one of the battles. And the other one is dealing with doubts. And so let's talk about, I mean, technology is everywhere. Social media abounds. How do we navigate this? Maybe some practical tips, setting boundaries, that sort of thing. How did you and Mike do it?[31:41] Melissa: Yeah. I mean, the first boundary is yourself. If you're glued to your phone, okay, your kid's going to be glued to their phone. So that's the first one. Let's just go ahead and say it. And I will say this: I think it's a lot harder for you raising kids now. When I had young kids, I didn't have a smartphone. I mean, can you imagine the difference? I could not, at a restaurant, just take my little cell phone and say, “Here, watch whatever show's popular.”[32:07] Jonathan: Yeah, keep ‘em busy.[32:08] Melissa: Yeah. And so I'm so thankful. We had to deal with those awful restaurant moments when they're losing their minds and having a fit.[32:20] Jonathan: That's why we don't go to restaurants.[32:22] Melissa: Or just not go. Sometimes it's like fast food because that's where you can easily…[32:28] Jonathan: In and out.[32:29] Melissa: And so I think to be aware that what you're doing with your phone and devices in the young years is greatly going to impact the older years. And then the other thing I would just say, as the statistics have come in—And the hopeful thing I have for your age, I think by the time your age, those kids get to high school, I think there will be new rules in high schools. It's hard right now. I view the cell phone and social media like smoking. The high school that I went to had inner courtyards, and you were allowed to go out and smoke during the middle of the day. Not when I was there. By the time I was there, inner courtyard, there as no smoking. I mean, think about it you know, airplanes, you used to be able to smoke on them, right?[33:11] Jonathan: I've been on one of those planes, actually, when I was a kid.[33:13] Melissa: Exactly. And now they've realized, oh, these aren't innocent—[33:19] Jonathan: It affects everyone in the plane, whether you want it or not, and the curtain's not going to keep it back.[33:24] Melissa: Exactly. And they would no more let a bunch of kids be sitting in the inner courtyard of a high school smoking now. Well, I believe, I really do believe what the studies are showing us, how bad it is for kids and their mental health. I believe one day cell phones are not going to be allowed in school—hopefully by the time your kids get there. I think they will not be allowed in middle and high school, so it might help parents.But today, parents have to navigate those waters without help from culture, and it's really hard. And so what I would say for every hour your kids spend on their cell phone or device, they will be less happy, and you have to reckon with that. The studies are in. Every further hour they spend on a device, they will be that much less happy. They will be more lonely, they will be more depressed, they will be more anxious. And so we've got to deal with that reality as we parent, and the most loving thing we can do is to help our kids not be glued to their phones all the time.[34:21] Jonathan: Yeah, I would imagine it fosters more of that comparative, yeah, right. My friend's picture's on whatever social media platform and I'm comparing myself at a constant rate, versus when I was a kid or teenager, it was like just what you could see in front of you.[34:40] Melissa: Right. You didn't know that you were actually left out of the party until a week or two later. Now instantly you're sitting home on a Friday night and you see the party that you weren't invited to.[34:54] Jonathan: I can only imagine navigating that. Okay, doubt. That's … This is a period in kids' life where doubt is more prevalent, more frequent. How should parents be dealing with questions—and I heard Mike give a great answer to some of this yesterday. But how do we address the question without dismission it, but also not wanting to just give the answer straightaway is kind of what Mike was saying yesterday.[35:37] Melissa: That's right. I think so often we hear a question and we jump to fear. Fear leads to control. So rather, the kid says something like, “Yeah, I'm not sure I believe that.” And then we hyper jump on that and give them a three-point outline of why they should believe what we believe. That is not a conversation and that is not what your teen needs. What I would say when they say, “Yeah, I'm not sure. It's seems really … That view of whatever seems really mean,” “Okay, tell me why you think that. Tell me where you hear that. What do your friends think about it?” Be curious about them. You already know actually what you think about whatever the thing is, but what they need to hear from you is that you actually are willing to listen as they're trying to sort it out. And it's going to make sense. Kids have really small perspectives on things. I did. When I was that age, I had all sorts of bad ideas about things. They're working through it, so work through it with them but don't … I just don't think it's very helpful to lecture them at that point. I think it's good … We want to have a conversation is what I keep saying. A conversation will allow more availability to give your opinion when you are curious about what they are thinking rather than just jumping in. And the reality is, again, me lecturing them is probably not going to prove my point. But as we have conversations, I'm going to start to understand where they're struggling, what they're struggling with, and we can keep having that conversation and it makes them a lot more receptive.[37:26] Jonathan: Yeah. I found that helpful. Mike was saying yesterday his tendency was to just give the answer straightaway. He's got the PhD and all of the qualifications and credentials, but kids don't really care. It's like, “All right, Dad, just chill.” And I get your point. And I think he said this yesterday, which is about let them kind of sit in the doubt for a little bit. Rather than just giving the quick, immediate response, let them wrestle with it, because this is probably the early formations of them moving out of the family faith and into a personal faith. And I think you've hit it on the head there with opening the dialog so it can be an ongoing conversation so that when they do go off to university or whatever it is and they are presented with ideas and philosophies, they can say, “I've already talked about that.” And I realize here all the fallacies or issues that come up with that, I think that's really helpful. But you're right, I think we do, we tend to go to fear and we start thinking down the track what could happen if I don't resolve this immediately. [38:43] Melissa: And to realize that conversation continues. It doesn't—[38:45] Jonathan: Yeah, right.[38:46] Melissa: All of our kids have called us. They normally call Mike, and they'll Facetime. I mean, Emma has been on the Facetime with like ten of her friends, and they're like, “We have a Bible question for you, Dad.” And I think because it felt like a conversation they actually continued the conversation.And I'll also say this. It's okay to not know. Because I get it. Like, look, it's really convenient when you have a husband who is a New Testament scholar and can answer some of these questions.[39:14] Jonathan: We all  just need Mike's phone number.[39:15] Melissa: Exactly. But I will say this. There are plenty of times he's like, “Yeah, that's a really confusing passage. I'm not sure what that means.” I mean, they are wildly unimpressed with his knowledge base sometimes, and so it's always nicely humbling.But he's very comfortable saying, “I don't know.” And I think we all should be comfortable saying, “I don't know,” and saying, “Hey, let's find out together.” Look, there are pastors out there who are waiting for calls like this. They have to deal with really hard issues sometimes, but they went to school to answer your biblical questions, and so a lot of times pastors are really eager to say, “Oh, I can help you with that.”[39:52] Jonathan: I get those from time to time, and sometimes there are the ones where, especially from little ones, and I think, how do I take what I know and put it in a way that you'll understand it. That takes some work.[40:07] Melissa: That's the best theological classroom you can ever be in right there.[40:10] Jonathan: Exactly. So we've asked some parents of teens to submit some questions that they're wrestling with, so we'll do a little lightning round of questions here. [41:06] Jonathan: This ties us back to what we mentioned earlier. This is kind of a newer thing. I mean, it's always been around, but it's more prevalent probably post-COVID, post-invention of the iPhone where kids are isolated. They are less relational than you and I would have been because that was all we had was relational collateral, personal interaction. Now kids can interact digitally and immediately and so there's probably a heightened level of self-consciousness, and that includes just appearance through social media and that sort of thing.So now going into a new setting with real people and real interactions must be a challenge. So what is some advice for the parent who's struggling with a teenager who's going through that?[42:08] Melissa: The first thing I always say is it's good to offer sympathy to them, “Hey, this is hard. I can remember what it was like to go into the lunch room and it be super awkward. Like who am I going to sit with?” We all have that. I still have that feeling sometimes. I'm in situations many times where I'm the only woman in a scenario, and I'm like, hmm, which table of all men … am I going to sit at? And it feels awkward.And so sometimes just them knowing that you feel it too is helpful. But I think it's also helpful to equip them and to say, hey, when you're in a situation like that, other people are probably feeling nervous too, and so it's good to go in with three questions so that you have them on your mind when you're walking into an awkward situation. It can be a question like, hey—let's picture the school lunchtime—what's your next class after this? That anybody can answer. It's pretty easily, yeah, whatever.Second one, you know, hey, where do you live? Or something like that, maybe something I'm thinking as I'm thinking in a business context, where are you from? But just some easily accessible questions that kids can answer. It could be, Are you going to the game this weekend? Whatever it might be so they feel equipped to actually reach out to someone else with a question and that can help conversation start.[43:27] Jonathan: This one's sort of on a similar vein but on a different level. “How do our teens manage the social rejection when you are following Christ?”[43:44] Melissa: Yeah. I think it is really helpful to put before our kids that we are stranger and aliens in this world. And you know my kids go to a … they were blessed to go to a Christian school, so they did not have to feel it at the level certain kids are going to have. But they did still get teased. All, especially, for being, oh, you're the professor's daughter. When she's in Bible class, even the teacher looks to her. “Well, would your dad agree with this?”[44:14] Jonathan: Oh dear. I had a little bit of that, too, with my father being a pastor. What would your dad say?[44:18] Melissa: It's the awkward … you have to be the super-spiritual one in every instance. And we just talk some about feeling a little bit like you don't belong is actually a good sign. And that means we're not home yet.[44:36] Jonathan: Great reminder.[44:37] Melissa: Yeah. When we talk about home is heaven, it makes sense.[44:43] Jonathan: Oof. “How do you parent a child that doesn't realize their friends are unhealthy for them?” These might all have a little bit of a sigh.[44:54] Melissa: It's tough. I'm a big believer in question-asking rather than telling. So hey, it seems like John did this and this and this. Do you think a good friend would be like in this scenario? What would you want him to do in that scenario? And then sometimes they can start to uncover, hey, this isn't the best type of person. But it always good to  maybe pause and ask why are they turning to this kind of friendship? And I mean, yeah, again, praying that the Spirit would waken their hearts to see the destructiveness. Always be praying. In every one of these scenarios, let me just say—[45:37] Jonathan: It starts with prayer.[45:38] Melissa: It starts with prayer. [45:39] Jonathan: I'm with you. This is good, and this question actually comes into one of your chapters in your book. “How do you prevent sports from becoming an idol, especially in regards to travel?” [45:58] MELISSA: Yeah, it's tough. I would manage it very carefully and just remember as good as your kid is, they probably will not play in college, and even more likely are they to create a career out of this. But you do want them to create a career and a life out of being a church member. So guard your church time. It doesn't mean you never miss. We've all missed church for various reasons, whether it's travel or just vacation. You couldn't get to church for some reason. You could say if you're traveling it's a great opportunity to take your kid to other churches. My kids really benefited from seeing other church traditions when we traveled. So it was great for them. One Sunday we went to a Baptist church, and they had grown up Presbyterian, so they only saw babies get baptized. It was Easter. It was spring break, so we were traveling, and they had this full-immersion baptism. Well, my kids were on the edge of their seats, and they were like, “what is happening here?” So for them it was great. It was a great conversation to say, “Oh, this is how they do it.” Those are great conversations to have. [47:05] Jonathan: “Courtship dance. How to handle it now.” There's not a lot of Scripture on dating. How do you all navigate that with your kids?[47:59] Melissa: We have had very little experience in this, not because we have had rules, not because of any other reason than our kids have just not dated. I think the benefit of maybe going to a small school is they're like, we've known these people since we were five. I'm not going to date them. My daughter is getting ready to get married, and she is marrying a guy she knew all through college. They met at Chapel Hill and were friends for three years and their senior year starting dating. I will fully admit, it was as easy as it could have been, and he is delightful and we're so glad they're getting married.So what I would say with my lack of experience is I do believe that rather than have rules it's better to have conversations in this area. And so when your kid comes home to you at fifteen and says, “I really like this kid,” one, be glad they're willing to talk to you about it. Secondly, say, “What do you like about them? Tell me what's great about them.” Be curious rather than controlling. If I could impress anything, be curious about your kid rather than control them. And so I would just say it's good to have standards. When you're talking about sexuality standards, you need to have those conversations whether they're dating or not. So that should be happening well before they're dating. way before the teen years. So I'm just assuming that in these conversations those have happened beforehand.But then I think modeling good friendships. If your kids are developing good friendships, it's a big precursor to developing a good and strong marriage and good and strong dating. But I think the main thing you want to do is keep the conversation open. Hold your tongue and listen.[49:45] Jonathan: Keeping a distraction-free family. Sort of like no cell phones at the table kind of thing?[49:57] Melissa: Yeah. You know it's just funny. We didn't have some of those rules, I guess. It was just understood that that's what we were doing. And I would say a big thing I would probably highlight is if you're going to watch a movie, all watch the same movie. And so, yeah, that means you're going to watch a lot of movies you don't really want to watch as a parent, but I'd rather have all five of us in the den together watching a movie that maybe everyone had to compromise on, than all of us in separate rooms, watching what we want to watch.[50:32] Jonathan: And I know Mike's favorite movies are horror films, right?[50:35] Melissa: No, he has to watch those alone. He's not allowed to watch those with us.[50:39] Jonathan: I was going to say. Here's a good one. “How do you balance contentment and complacency and still encourage hard work?”[50:50] Melissa: I think contentment goes right alongside with hard work. But complacency is a little different. So I think you know your child. Some children are going to need to be told, hey, you need to slow down. Some kids are going to need to be told, you need to speed up. And that's okay. But you're going to have to know your individual child to know if they're not living up to who God has made them to be or if they're trying to prove something to the world. You're going to have to know that better as a parent, so it's probably going to be different for every kid.[51:27] Jonathan: This is similar to different types of child, but “How do you parent the high-achieving, focused child, how to best support their talents?” And then we'll do the other side of that.[51:37] MELISSA: Yeah. I think with the high-achieving, focused child, it's really good to make sure they're not putting their worth and value in their performance. And so you're going to have to just work with them on that and walk through that with them and encourage them that they are beloved not because of what they do but because of who they are in that. Because they're going to fail one day, and then how you deal with their failure and mistakes is really important because those kids aren't going to be used to it, and they really need it. They need to feel what it feels like to fail sometimes. And they're going to be really uncomfortable in that moment. And so walking through that with them graciously is really important.[52:20] Jonathan: Flip side, I suppose, is “How do you parent the low-achieving, unfocused child?”[52:27] Melissa: Yeah, I mean, that's a really hard one, I have to admit.[52:30] Jonathan: Yeah, because it's different.[52:31] Melissa: It's totally different, especially if it's a child like “I know this child can do things.” One, if it is a boy, let me just say they really will get it together eventually. A lot of boys, their frontal lobe—great book called The Teenage Brain. You should read it. It's written by a neuroscientist who had two boys. It's great. I mean, their brains really are taking long to develop. I taught high school, and let me tell you, the boys were not winning in high school. They forgot their stuff, the reason they had B's rather than A's was not because they were not smart enough, it's because they did not turn in their homework.They really will, by their junior and senior year, developmentally get it together. It's the girls are just developing earlier. Some of the front-lobe stuff is connecting earlier. It's biological. So yes, have expectations, but just know that with your son you might have to remind him five times, “Hey, did you pack your lunch today? Did you pack your lunch?” Don't pack it for him, but you might have to remind him more on those things.[53:35] Jonathan: “When they experience rejection or seek acceptance from the wrong sources, how do we navigate that?” And I think that's one of your … that's one of your chapters.[53:47] Melissa: Yeah, I think that different again this one is just going to have to be prayer. Because it shares a little bit about where their heart is leaning. I mean, you can see this in some kids. Some kids just always want to be on the edge, and you can see it. I think this is where you pray and you do trust that the Lord will somehow use this season in their life.But also I think to ask questions like, “Hey, why do you want to do that? What's going on? Why is that attractive?” And it's difficult if you're not that type of personality to even understand. Like I don't want to get burned, so I stay way, far away from a fire, right? But some people are just drawn to the fire and they want to get close up to it. So sometimes it's good to just ask, “Hey, why do you want this? What's going on?” Again, I think with each kid it's going to be a little bit different, so it's important to ask what's going on with their hearts and to keep probing and keep praying.[54:50] Jonathan: Yeah. All right, I'll make this the last one. “What is the Kruger's' take on how much we are requiring church attendance, devotions, spiritual practices versus giving teens the freedom of choice?”[55:03] Melissa: That's interesting. So you're saying how much we require it versus how much we just let them make that choice.[55:12] Jonathan: In terms of family devotion. Churchgoing I guess is part of the question. [55:22] Melissa: That's a good question. That makes sense. So I'm totally fine with “you're going to go to church on Sunday” just because I don't make school a choice. If you can go to school all day, you can go to church, so that's just fine with me. If they don't believe, I'm like, “That's fine, you don't have to believe, but you're going to go to church because we go to church, just like you're going to go to school,” and I'm okay with that.When I comes to family devotions, that was again just something we had always done, so it was never a new thing. It would be like my kids saying, “Oh, all of a sudden I don't want to brush my teeth.” “Huh, really? You've brushed your teeth since you were two. You want to stop now.” Some of these habits, when you can start them young, they just don't know any different. My big hint to young parents is they only know the home you make normal for them. And so they don't know that no other family's having family devotions. When it comes to personal Bible reading, that was something I did not force at all. We gave our kids Bibles, they saw our habits and our practice, and I watched as each of my kids became interested in the Bible on their own.We did not say, “Hey, you need to read it every day.” When you're putting them in church and you're having devotions, you're showing them what you value and at some value they've got to start picking up on those personal habits. That felt much more like the very relational, intimate walking with the Lord, and I wasn't going to try and force that on them. So there are spaces, I think, where you say, “Hey, this is what we do as a family,” like go to church or have prayer time before breakfast. That's just our family rhythm, and yes, you need to participate. But when it came to their own faith and their own growth, by the teen years I think that's starting to be put in their hands.[57:04] Jonathan: All right, before we go, encouragement for parents who are feeling overwhelmed, discouraged—which is probably every parent.[57:13] Melissa: Yeah. Exactly. If you're feeling overwhelmed, this is where I'm always like go back to the basics. Read the Bible. Be encouraged. God is with you and He is parenting you while you're parenting your teen. Be in prayer, ask for His help, and be around the people in the church. And so again, that makes life a lot more simple, right? Read your Bible, it will change you, it will change how you parent. Prayer will give you hope that God can change your child. And the church will give you the community you need. And then say no to a lot of other things, but simplify your life so that those things can be a priority. [57:56] Jonathan: Well, the book is Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age. Melissa Kruger, it's always so fun, and you've knocked out the lightning-round questions and I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.[58:14] Melissa: Thanks for having me. It was fun.[58:16] Jonathan: Absolutely. Pleasure.   

Show Notes Today's Guests: Melissa Hake PT, DScPT hake.melissa@mayo.edu William Healey PT,EdD, GCS b-healey@northwestern.edu Bridge the Gap Conference Co-Chairs Links: https://www.aptaacutecare.org/page/bridgethegap Attendee Pricing: APTA Acute Care Members $225, Non-Members $325, Students/Residents/Fellows $75 May 7th Webinar: The Path Isn't Clear: The Complex Ethics of Palliative Care PT in the Hospital https://www.aptaacutecare.org/events/EventDetails.aspx?id=1849536&group= 2025 Call for Nominations https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.aptaacutecare.org/resource/resmgr/csm/csm_2024/cycle_2.pdf Guest Quotes: What's the origin story of the Bridge the Gap conference? 1:44 Melissa “There were gaps between kind of disseminating and implementing information from the classroom to the clinic, and then also from research published evidence into real world settings with all the barriers and constraints and things that go on within the health care system. And so thinking of those gaps we really sought to have a conference where people could come together around those topics and try to improve and, and bridge those gaps.” On BTG Speakers 13:33 Melissa: “…we're really, really intentional about trying to get all kinds of different perspectives from different stakeholders. So we had rural, we have large hospital, we have administrators, we have clinicians we have academics who are trying to like take complex patients and how do we weave that into a curriculum? …we did our best to get a comprehensive view of what it means to take evidence and innovative ways and move it into practical application.” Rapid Responses: What's your favorite book that you'd recommend? Bill: “The All Light We Cannot See” by Anthony Doerr Melissa: “Lord of the Rings” You know you work in acute care when: Melissa: “You go to plan Z” Bill: You're tired from walking all over the floors.  I'm so tired at the end of the day.” Connect with our hosts and the podcast! Leo Arguelles (LEE-O R-GWELL-IS) largue2@uic.edu Twitter @LeoArguellesPT Ashley Poole Twitter @AshleyPooleDPT Interested in being a future guest? APTA Acute Care: Website Awards Journal Access Twitter @AcuteCareAPTA Facebook APTA Acute Care Instagram @AcademyAcutePT YouTube  APTA Acute Care Podcast Bridge the Gap APTA Acute Care Resources APTA Adult Vital Signs APTA Lab Values Document Webinar Recordings 2023 Long Covid Webinar Series

Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 16 – Strengthening Tasks Through Student Talk Guests: Dr. Amber Candela and Dr. Melissa Boston Mike Wallus: One of the goals I had in mind when we first began recording Rounding Up was to bring to life the best practices that we aspire to in math education and to offer entry points so that educators would feel comfortable trying them out in their classrooms. Today, we're talking with Drs. Amber Candela and Melissa Boston about powerful but practical strategies for supporting student talk in the elementary math classroom.  Welcome to the podcast, Amber and Melissa. We're really excited to be talking with you today. Amber Candela: Thank you for having us.  Melissa Boston: Yes, thank you. Mike: So we've done previous episodes on the importance of offering kids rich tasks, but one of the things that you two would likely argue is that rich tasks are necessary, but they're not necessarily sufficient, and that talk is actually what makes the learning experience really blossom. Is that a fair representation of where you all are at? Melissa: Yes. I think that sums it up very well. In our work, which we've built on great ideas from Smith and Stein, about tasks, and the importance of cognitively challenging tasks and work on the importance of talk in the classroom. Historically, it was often referred to as “talk moves.” We've taken up the term “discourse actions” to think about how do the actions a teacher takes around asking questions and positioning students in the classroom—and particularly these talk moves or discourse actions that we've named “linking” and “press”—how those support student learning while students are engaging with a challenging task. Mike: So I wonder if we could take each of the practices separately and talk through them and then talk a little bit about how they work in tandem. And Melissa, I'm wondering if you could start unpacking this whole practice of linking. How would you describe linking and the purpose it plays for someone who, the term is new for them? Melissa: I think as mathematics teachers, when we hear linking, we immediately think about the mathematics and linking representations or linking strategies. But we're using it very specifically here as a discourse action to refer to how a teacher links student talk in the classroom and the explicit moves a teacher makes to link students' ideas.  Sometimes a linking move is signaled by the teacher using a student's name, so referring to a strategy or an idea that a student might've offered. Sometimes linking might happen if a teacher revoices a student's idea and puts it back out there for the class to consider. The idea is in the way that we're using linking, that it's links within the learning community, so links between people in the classroom and the ideas offered by those people, of course. But the important thing here that we're looking for is how the links between people are established in the verbal, the explicit talk moves or discourse actions that the teacher's making. Mike: What might that sound like? Melissa: So that might sound like, “Oh, I noticed that Amber used a table. Amber, tell us how you used a table.” And then after Amber would explain her table, I might say, “Mike, can you tell me what this line of Amber's table means?” or “How is her table different from the table you created?” Mike: You're making me think about those two aspects, Melissa, this idea that there's mathematical value for the class, but there's also this connectivity that happens when you're doing linking. And I wonder how you think about the value that that has in a classroom.  Melissa: We definitely have talked about that in our work as well. I'm thinking about how a teacher can elevate a student's status in mathematics by using their name or using their idea, just marking or identifying something that the student said is mathematically important that's worthy of the class considering further. Creating these opportunities for student-to-student talk by asking students to compare their strategies or if they have something to add on to what another student said. Sometimes just asking them to repeat what another student said so that there's a different accountability for listening to your peers. If you can count on the teacher to revoice everything, you could tune out what your peers are saying, but if you might be asked to restate what one of your classmates had just said, now there's a bit more of an investment in really listening and understanding and making sense. Mike: Yeah, I really appreciate this idea that there's a way in which that conversation can elevate a student's ideas, but also to raise a student's status by naming their idea and positioning it as important. Melissa: I have a good example from a high school classroom where a student [...] was able to solve the contextual problem about systems of equations, so two equations, and it was important for the story when the two equations or the two lines intersected. And so one student was able to do that very symbolically. They created a graph, they solved the system of equations where another student said, “Oh, I see what you did. You found the difference in the cost per minute, and you also found the difference in the starting point, and then one had to catch up to the other.”  And so the way that the teacher kind of positioned those two strategies, one had used a sensemaking approach based really in the context. The other had used their knowledge of algebra. And by positioning them together, it was actually the student who had used the algebra had higher academic status, but the student who had reasoned through it had made this breakthrough that was really the aha moment for the class. Mike: That is super cool.  Amber, can we shift to press and ask you to talk a little bit about what press looks like? Amber: Absolutely. So how Melissa was talking about linking is holding students accountable to the community; press is more around holding students accountable to the mathematics.  And so the questions the teacher is going to ask is going to be more related specifically to the mathematics. So, “Can you explain your reasoning?” “How did you get that answer?” “What does this x mean?” “What does that intersection point mean?” And so the questions are more targeted at keeping the math conversation in the public space longer. Mike: I thought it was really helpful to just hear the example that Melissa shared. I'm wondering if there's an example that comes to mind that might shed some light on this. Amber: So when I'm in elementary classrooms and teachers are asking their kids about different problems, and kids will be like, “I got 2.” OK, “How did you get 2?” “What operation did you use?” “Why did you use addition when you could have used something else?”  So it's really pressing at the, “Yes, you got the answer, but how did you get the answer?” “How does it make sense to you?”, so that you're making the kids rather than the teacher justify the mathematics that's involved. And they're the ones validating their answers and saying, “Yes, this is why I did this because…” Mike: I think there was a point when I was listening to the two of you speak about this where, and forgive me if I paraphrase this a little bit, but you had an example where a teacher was interacting with a student and the student said something to the effect of, “I get it” or “I understand.” And the teacher came back and she said, “And what do you understand?” And it was really interesting because it threw the justification back to the student. Amber: Right. Really what the linking and press does, it keeps the math actionable longer to all of the peers in the room. So it's having this discussion out loud publicly. So if you didn't get the problem fully all the way, you can hear your peers through the press moves, talk about the mathematics, and then you can use the linking moves to think through, “Well, maybe if Mike didn't understand, if he revoices Melissa's comment, he has the opportunity to practice this mathematics speaking it.” And then you might be able to take that and be like, “Oh, wait, I think I know how to finish solving the problem now.” Mike: I think the part that I want to pull back and linger on a little bit is [that] part of the purpose of press is to keep the conversation about the mathematics in the space longer for kids to be able to have access to those ideas. I want y'all to unpack that just a little bit. Amber: Having linking and press at the end is holding the conversation longer in the classroom. And so the teacher is using the press moves to get at the mathematics so the kids can access it more. And then by linking, you're bringing in the community to that space and inviting them to add: “What do you agree [with]?” “Do you disagree?” “Can you revoice what someone said?” “Do you have any questions about what's happening?” Melissa: So when we talk about discourse actions, the initial discourse action would be the questions that the teacher asks. So there's a good task to start with. Students have worked on this task and produced some solution strategies. Now we're ready to discuss them. The teacher asks some questions so that students start to present or share their work and then it's after students' response [that] linking and press come in as these follow-up moves to do what Amber said: to have the mathematics stay in the public space longer, to pull more kids into the public space longer.  So we're hoping that by spending more time on the mathematics, and having more kids access the mathematics, that we're bringing more kids along for the ride with whatever mathematics it is that we're learning. Mike: You're putting language to something that I don't know that I had before, which is this idea that the longer we can keep the conversation about the ideas publicly bouncing around—there are some kids who may need to hear an idea or a strategy or a concept articulated in multiple different ways to piece together their understanding. Amber: And like Melissa was saying earlier, the thing that's great about linking is oftentimes in a classroom space, teachers ask a question, kids answer, the teacher moves on. The engagement does drop. But by keeping the conversation going longer, the linking piece of it, you might get called on to revoice, so you need to be actively paying attention to your peers because it's on the kids now. The math authority has been shared, so the kids are the ones also making sense of what's happening. But it's on me to listen to my peers because if I disagree, there's an expectation that I'll say that. Or if I agree or I might want to add on to what someone else is saying.  So oftentimes I feel like this pattern of teacher-student-teacher-student-teacher-student happens, and then what can start to happen is teacher-student-student-student-teacher. And so it kind of creates this space where it's not just back and forth, it kind of popcorns more around with the kids. Mike: You are starting to touch on something that I did want to talk about, though, because I think when I came into this conversation, what was in my head is, like, how this supports kids in terms of their mathematical thinking. And I think where you two have started to go is: What happens to kids who are in a classroom where link and press are a common practice? And what happens to classrooms where you see this being enacted on a consistent basis? What does it mean for kids? What changes about their mathematical learning experience? Melissa: You know, we observe a lot of classrooms, and it's really interesting when you see even primary grade students give an answer and immediately say, you know, “I think it's 5 because …,” and they provide their justification just as naturally as they provide their answer or they're listening to their peers and they're very eager to say, “I agree with you; I disagree with you, and here's why” or “I did something similar” or “Here's how my diagram is slightly different.”  So to hear children and students taking that up is really great. And it just—a big shift in the amount of time that you hear the teacher talking versus the amount of time you hear children talking and what you're able to take away as the teacher or the educator formatively about what they know and understand based on what you're hearing them say. And so [in] classrooms where this has become the norm, you see fewer instances where the teacher has to use linking and press because students are picking this up naturally. Mike: As we were sitting here and I was listening to y'all talk, Amber, the thing that I wanted to come back to is [that] I started reflecting on my own practice and how often, even if I was orchestrating or trying to sequence, it was teacher-student-teacher-student-teacher-student. It bounced back to me, and I'm really kind of intrigued by this idea, teacher-student-student-student-teacher—that the discourse, it's moving from a back and forth between one teacher, one student, rinse and repeat, and more students actually taking up the discourse. Am I getting that right? Amber: Yes. And I think really the thought is we always want to talk about the mathematics, but we also have to have something for the community. And that's why the linking is there because we also need to hold kids accountable to the community that they're in as much as we need to hold them accountable to the mathematics. Mike: So, Amber, I want to think about what does it look like to take this practice up? If you were going to give an educator a little nudge or maybe even just a starting point where teachers could take up linking and press, what might that look like? If you imagined kind of that first nudge or that first starting point that starts to build this practice? Amber: We have some checklists with sentence stems in [them], and I think it's taking those sentence stems and thinking about when I ask questions like, “How did you get that?” and “How do you know this about that answer?”, that's when you're asking about the mathematics. And then when you start to ask, “Do you agree with what so-and-so said? Can you revoice what they said in your own words?”, that's holding kids accountable to the community and just really thinking about the purpose of asking this question. Do I want to know about the math or do I want to build the conversation between the students? And then once you realize what you want that to be, you have the stem for the question that you want to ask. Mike: Same question, Melissa. Melissa: I think if you have the teacher who is using good tasks and asking those good initial questions that encourage thinking, reasoning, explanations, even starting by having them try out, once a student gives you a response, asking, “How do you know?” or “How did you get that?” and listening to what the student has to say. And then as the next follow-up, thinking about that linking move coming after that. So even a very formulaic approach where a student gives a response, you use a press move, hear what the student has to say, and then maybe put it back out to the class with a linking move. You know, “Would someone like to repeat what Amber just said?” or “Can someone restate that in their own words?” or whatever the linking move might be. Mike: So if these two practices are new to someone who's listening, are there any particular resources or recommendations that you'd share with someone who wants to keep learning? Amber: We absolutely have resources. We wrote an article for the NCTM's MTLT [Mathematics Teacher: Learning and Teaching PK-12] called “Discourse Actions to Promote Student Access .” And there are some vignettes in there that you can read through and then there [are] checklists with sentence stems for each of the linking and press moves. Melissa: Also, along with that article, we've used a lot of the resources from NCTM's Principles to Actions [Professional Learning] Toolkit.   that's online, and some of the resources are free and accessible to everyone. Amber: And if you wanted to dig in a bit more, we do have a book called Making Sense of Mathematics to Inform Instructional Quality. And that goes in-depth with all of our rubrics and has other scenarios and videos around the linking and press moves along with other parts of the rubrics that we were talking about earlier. Mike: That's awesome. We will link all of that in our show notes.  Thank you both so much for joining us. It was a real pleasure talking with you. Amber: Thanks for having us.  Melissa: Thank you. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org References and Resources: NCTM: https://pubs.nctm.org/view/journals/mtlt/113/4/article-p266.xml#:~:text=Discourse%20actions%20provide%20access%20to,up%20on%20contributions%20from%20students ERIC: https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1275372 https://www.nctm.org/PtAToolkit/ https://www.nctm.org/uploadedFiles/Conferences_and_Professional_Development/Annual_Meetings/LosAngeles2022/Campaigns/12-21_PtA_Toolkit.pdf?utm_source=nctm&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=LA2022&utm_content=PtA+Toolkit

I remember being seven or eight years old and drawing… having construction paper, big rolls of paper all over the living room floor, drawing pictures of where my cows and my sheep and my chickens would go on my future farm.—Melissa   You pick and choose your battles for sure…do we want to focus on cleaning up all of our  step-in fence for the sheep and  do all the outdoor stuff or are we going to focus on a house that we can bring friends into? So unfortunately,  our game nights have taken a hit on not being able to invite people over, but our understanding of field management and what is required outside is more of a priority and we're appreciating that. Our decor is not the best, but whatever.--Toby   As Toby writes: Melissa and I own and operate Three Square Farm. We do rotational grazing of our beef and dairy cows and meat sheep. We moved to Vermont 5 years ago and started our farming journey 3 years ago.  Toby also does hay crops on almost 100 acres and is diving into precision ag. Through many challenges, lessons learned (some the hard way), and classes with NOFA, we have gotten our enterprise on a good standing. With many more years to come and the passion for agriculture ever blossoming within our selves we like to look back on the struggles of being newly married, a new location, and many other challenges we faced. This only makes us stronger and the love of this career richer. At this point we couldn't see ourselves doing anything else. Three Square Farm email address   Three Square Farm website   Three Square Farm Instagram   Three Square Farm Facebook   NOFA Vermont Beginning Farmer programs   Todoist app   New England Grazing Network web site   Vermont Grass Farmers Association web site   Your Transformation Story program registration is open!   Choosing to Farm Patreon link The Choosing to Farm podcast is all about telling origin stories, learning from the journeys, and creating connection among first-and returning-generation livestock farmers and ranchers across the US and the world.  After nearly 30 years working professionally in agriculture as well as being a returning-generation farmer myself, I'm here to share stories, tips and resources to help livestock farmers and ranchers heal our relationship with success.  Want to help? Like, share or review this episode! Want to help even more? Join our Patreon to support the show or even buy me a cup of coffee at the Choosing to Farm web site! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/choosingtofarm/message

Join co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez in conversation with LitFriends Melissa Febos & Donika Kelly about their grand statements, big revelations, sentential seduction, queering forms, the power of vulnerability, and love poems. We're taking a break and will be back for our next episode with guests Yiyun Li & Edmund White on January 16,  2024. Happy Holidays, LitFam!   LINKS Libsyn Blog www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com www.melissafebos.com www.donikakelly.com LitFriends LinkTree LitFriends Insta LitFriends Facebook TRANSCRIPT Annie: (00:00) This episode is dedicated to Chuck, a dog we have loved, and Donika and Melissa's sweet pup.   Annie & Lito: Welcome to LitFriends! Hey Lit Friends!   Annie: Welcome to the show.    Lito: Today, we're speaking with memoirist Melissa Febos and poet Donika Kelly, lit friends in marriage,   Annie: About seduction, big boss feelings, and sliding into DMs.   Lito: So grab your bestie,   Annie & Lito: And get ready to fall in love!   Annie: What I love about Melissa Febos, and you can feel this across all four of her books, is how she declares herself free. There's no ambiguity to this. This is her story, not your telling of it, not your telling of her. I meet her on the page as someone who's in an act of rebellion or an act of defiance. And I was not really surprised but delighted to find that, when I read Donika Kelly, I had sort of the same reaction, same impression. And I'm wondering if that's true for you, and, Lito, what your understanding of vulnerability and its relationship to power is.   Lito: The power for me in these conversations, and the power that the authors that we speak with possess, seems to me, in the ways that they have found how they are completely unique from each other. And more so than in our other conversations, Donika and Melissa, their work is so different. And yet, as you've pointed out, the overlap, and the fire, the energy, the defiance, the fierceness is so present. And it was present in our conversation. And so inspiring.   Annie: Yeah. I'm thinking even about Melissa Febos has this Ted Talk. (01:54) Where she says "telling your secrets will set you free." And it feels that not only is that true, but it's also very much an act of self reclamation and strength, right? Where we might read it as an act of weakness. It's actually in fact, a harnessing of the self.   Lito: Right, it's not that Melissa has a need to confess. It's that she really uses writing to find the truth about herself and how she feels about something, which that could not differ more from my writing practice.   Annie: How so?   Lito: I find that I sort of, I write out of an emotion or a need to discover something, but I already sort of am aware of where I am and who I am before I start. I find the plot and the characters as I go, but I know sort of how I feel.   Annie: Yeah, I think for me, I do feel like writing is an act of discovery where maybe I put something on the page, it's the initial conception, or yeah, like you coming out of a feeling. But as I start to ask questions, right, for me, it's this process of inquiry. I excavate to something maybe a little more surprising or partially hidden or unknown to myself.   Lito: That's true. There is a discovery of, and I think you're, I think you've pointed to exactly what it is. It's the process of inquiry, and I think both of them, and obviously us, we're doing that similar thing. This is about writing, about this, this is about asking questions and writing through them.   Annie: Yeah, and Donika Kelly, we feel that in her work, her poetry over and over, even when they have the same recurring, I would say haunting images or artifacts. Each time she's turning it over and asking almost unbearable questions.   Lito: Right.   Annie: And we're joining her on the page because she is brave enough and has an iron will and says, no, I will not not look this in the eye.    Lito: That's the feeling exactly that I get from both of them is the courage, the bravura of the unflinching.   Annie: I think something that seemed to resonate with you was (03:58) how they talk about writing outside of publishing right? Yeah.   Lito: Yeah, I love I love that they talk about writing as a practice regardless, they're separated from The need to produce a work that's gonna sell in a commercial world in a capitalist society. It's more about the daily practice, and how that is a lifestyle and even what you said about the TED talk, that's just her. She's just talking about herself. Like that she's just telling an absolute truth that people don't typically talk about.   Annie: Right. And it's a conscious, active way to live inside one's life. It's a form of reflection, meditation, and rather than just moving through life, a way to make meaning of the experience.   Lito: I love that you use the word meditation because when you talk about meditation, you think of someone in a lotus position quietly being, but the meditations that both of them do, these are not quiet.   Annie: No. And of course we have to talk about how cute they are as married literary besties.   Lito: Oh my god, cute and like, they're hot for each other.   Annie: Oh my god.   Lito: It's palpable.   Annie: So palpable, sliding into DMs, chatting each other up over email.   Lito: They romanced each other, and I hope—no—I know they're gonna romance you, listener.   Annie: We'll be right back.   Lito: (05:40) Back to the show.   Annie: Melissa Febos is the author of four books, including the best-selling essay collection Girlhood, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award, was a Lambda finalist, and was named a notable book by NPR, Time Magazine, the Washington Post, and others. Her craft book Body Work is a national bestseller and an Indie's Next Pick. Her forthcoming novel The Dry Season is a work of mixed form nonfiction that explores celibacy as liberatory practice. Melissa lives in Iowa City with her wife, the poet Donika Kelly, and is a professor in the English department at the University of Iowa, where she teaches creative writing.   Lito: Donika Kelly is the author of The Renunciations, winner of the Anisfield-Wolf Book Award in poetry and Bestiary, the winner of the 2015 Cave Canem Poetry Prize, a Hurston Wright Legacy Award for poetry, and the Kate Tufts Discovery Award. Donika has been a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award, the Publishing Triangle Awards, the Lambda Literary Awards, and was long listed for the National Book Award. (06:00) Donika lives in Iowa City with her wife, the writer Melissa Febos, and is an assistant professor in the English department at the University of Iowa, where she teaches creative writing.   Annie: Well, thank you for joining us for LitFriends to talk about the ultimate lit friendship. It does seem like you've won at the game of lit friends a little bit, having married your lit friend. I think of you both as writers who are in the constant act of subversion and resisting erasure. And that's the kind of work that Lito and I are drawn to, and that we're trying to do ourselves. And your work really shows us how to inhabit our bravest and most complex selves on the page. So we're really grateful for that.   Melissa: Thanks.   Annie: Yeah, of course. I mean, Donika, I think about poems of yours that my friends and I revisit constantly because we're haunted by them in the best way. They've taken residence inside of us. And you talk about what it means to have to do that work. And you've said, "to admit need and pain, desire and trauma and claim my humanity was often daunting. But the book demanded I claim my personhood."   And Melissa, I think you know how much your work means to me. I mean, as someone who is raised as a girl in this country and writing creative nonfiction, Body Work should not be as revelatory as it is. Yet what I see is that you're shaping an entire generation of nonfiction writers, many of them women. So, you know, also very grateful for that. And you've talked about that in Body Work. You've said "the risk of honest self-appraisal requires bravery to place our flawed selves in the context of this magnificent broken world is the opposite of narcissism, which is building a self-image that pleases you." So we'll talk more in a bit about courage and vulnerability and how you all do the impossible things you do, but let's dive into your lit friendship.   Melissa: Thank you, Annie, for that beautiful introduction.   Donika: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited to talk about our friendship.   Lito: We're so excited to have you here.   Melissa: Talk about our special friendship.   Annie: Very special friendship. Friendship with benefits.   Lito: So tell us about your lit friend, Melissa, tell us about Donika.   Melissa: (09:07) Tell us about her. Okay, she's fucking hilarious, like very, very funny and covers a broad spectrum of humor from like, there's a lot of like punning that goes on in our house, a lot of like silly wordplay, bathroom humor, and then like high level, like, literary academic sort of witticism that's also making fun of itself a lot. And we've sort of operated in all of those registers since like the day we met.   She is my favorite poet. There's like those artists that whose work you really appreciate, right? Sometimes because it's so different from your own. And then there are those artists whose work registers in like a very deep sort of recognition where they feel like creative kin, right? And that has always been my experience of Donika's work. That there is a kind of creative intelligence and emotionality that just feels like so profoundly familiar to me and was before I knew anything about her as a human being.   Okay, we also like almost all the same candy and have extremely opposite work habits. She's very hot. She only likes to watch like TVs and movies that she's seen many times before, which is both like very comforting and very annoying.   Lito: Well, I'm gonna have to follow that up now. What are some of the top hits?   Melissa: Oh, for sure, Golden Girls is at the very top. I mean…   Annie: No one's mad at that.   Lito: We can do the interview right now. Perfect. All we need to know. A++!   Melissa: She's probably like 50% of the time that she's sleeping, she falls asleep to the soundtrack of the Golden Girls or Xena, maybe. But we've also watched the more recent James Bond franchise, The Matrices, (11:00) and Mission Impossible, never franchises I ever thought I would watch once, let alone multiple times at some point.   Annie: I mean, Donika, your queerness is showing with that list.   Lito: Yeah.   Donika: I feel seen. I feel represented accurately by that list. She's not wrong. She's not wrong at all. But I've also introduced to her the pleasure of revisiting work.   Melissa: That's right.   Donika: And that was not a thing that Melissa was doing before we met, which feels confusing to me. Because I am a person who really likes to revisit. She was buying more books when we met, and now she uses the library more, and that feels like really exciting. That feels like a triumph on my part. I'm like…   Annie: That is a victory. Yeah.   Donika: …with the public services.   Melissa; Both of these examples really allude to like this deep, fundamental sort of capitalistic set of habits that I have, where I… like there's like this weird implicit desire to try to read as many books as possible before I perish, and also to hoard them, I guess. And I'm very happy to have been influenced out of that.   Annie: Well it's hard not to think—I think about that tweet like once a week that's like you have an imaginary bookshelf, and there are a limited amount of books on that you can read before you die, and that like troubles me every day.   Melissa: Yeah it's so fucked up. (12:22) I don't want that. It's already in my head. I feel like I was born with that in my head, and I'm trying to get free.   Lito: Same. Serious book FOMO, like…   Donika: There are so many books y'all.   Lito: I know. It's not possible.   Donika: And, it's like, there are more and more every year.   Annie: Well, uh Donika tell us about Melissa.   Donika: Oh Melissa As she has already explained we have a lot of fun It's a funny household. She's hilarious. Um, and also she's a writer of great integrity, which you know I'm sitting on the couch reading Nora Roberts, and she's like in her office hammering away at essays, and I don't know what's going on in there. I'm very nosy. I'm a deeply nosy person. Like, I just I want to know like what's going on. I want to know the whole history, and it's really amazing to be with someone who is like here it is.   Annie: How did you all meet?   Donika: (13:20) mere moments after Trump was elected in 2016. I was in great despair. I was living in Western New York. I was teaching at a small Catholic university. Western New York is very conservative. It's very red. And I was in this place and I was like, this place is not my place. This place is not for me. And I was feeling very alone. And Melissa had written an essay that came out shortly after about teaching creative writing at a private institution in a red county. And I was like, oh, she gets it, she understands.   I started, I just like looked for everything. I looked for like everything that she had written. I read it, I watched the TED talk. I don't know if y'all know about the TED talk. There was a TED talk. I watched the TED talk. I was like, she's cute. I read Whip Smart. I followed her on Twitter. I developed a crush, and I did nothing else. So this is where I pass the baton. So I did all of that.   Melissa: I loved Bestiaries, and I love the cover. The cover of her book is from this medieval bestiary. And so I just bought it, and I read it. And I just had that experience that I described before where I was just like, "Oh, fuck. Like this writer and I have something very deep in common." And I wrote her. I DMed her on Twitter.   Sometimes I obscure this part of the story because I want it to appear like I sent her a letter by raven or something. But actually, I slid into her DMs, and I just was like, "hey, I loved your book. If you ever come to New York and want help setting up a reading, like I curate lots of events, da da da." And I put my email in. And not five minutes later, refreshed my Gmail inbox, and there was an email from Donika, and…   Donika: I was like, "Hi. Hello. It's me."   Annie: So you agree with this timeline, Donika, right? Like, it was within five minutes.   Donika: Yeah, it was very fast. And I think if I hadn't read everything that I could get my hands on that Melissa had written, I may have been a little bit slower off the mark. It wasn't romantic. Like the connection, I wasn't like, oh, this is someone who like I want to (15:41) strike up a romantic relationship with, it really was the work. Like I just respected the work so much.   I mean, I did have a crush, like that was real, but I have crushes on lots of people, like that sort of flows in and out, but that often is a signifier of like, oh, this person will be my friend. And I was still married at the time and trying to figure out, like that relationship was ending. It was coming to a quick close that felt slow. Like it was dragging a little bit for lots of reasons.   But then once it was clear to me that I was getting divorced, Melissa and I continued writing to each other like for the next few months. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, I'm getting divorced. I was like, I'm getting divorced. And then suddenly the emails were very different. From both of us. It wasn't different.   Melissa: There had been no romantic strategy or intent, you know, and I think which, which was a really great way to, we really started from a friendship.   Annie: And sounds like a courtship really. I mean, it kind of is an old fashion.   Melissa: Yeah, in some way, it became that. I think it became that. But I think it was, I mean, the best kind of courtship begins as a, as a friendly courtship, you know what I mean? Where it was about sort of mutual artistic respect and curiosity and just interest. And it wasn't defined yet, like, what sort of mood that interest would take for a while, you know?   Lito: So how do you seduce each other on and off the page?   Donika: That's a great question.   Melissa: That is a great question.   Donika: I am not good at seduction. So that is not a skill set that is available to me. It has never been available.   Lito: I do not believe that.   Annie: I know. I'm also in disbelief out here, really.   Melissa: No one believes it, but she insists.   Annie: I feel like that's part of the game, is my feeling, but it is not.   Melissa: It's not. Here's the thing I will say is that like Donika, I've thought a lot about this and we've talked a lot about this because I balked at that statement as well. It's like Donika is seductive. Like there are qualities about her that are very seductive, but she does not seduce people. You know what I mean? Like she doesn't like turn on the charisma and shine it at you like a hypnotist. Like that's not… (18:08) that's not her form of seduction, but I will say…   I can answer that question in terms of like, I think in terms of the work, since we've been talking about that, like in a literary way, both in her own work, like the quality, like just someone who's really good at what they do is fucking sexy, you know? Like when I was looking for like a little passage before this interview, I was just like, "ah, this is so good." Like it's so attractive when someone is really, really good at their craft. right? Especially when it's a crop that you share.   Donika: So Melissa does have the ability to turn on what she has written about, which I think is really funny. Like she like she has like, she has a very strong gaze. It's very potent. And one of my gifts is to disrupt that and be like, what are you doing with your eyes? And so like, when I think about that in the work, when I'm reading her work, and I'm in like its deepest thrall, it is that intensity of focus that really like pulls me in and keeps me in. She's so good at making a grand statement.   Melissa: I was just gonna bring that up.   Donika: Oh, I think she and I like often get to, we arrive at sort of similar places, but she gets there from the grand statement, and I get there from the granular statement, like it's a very narrow sort of path. And then Melissa's like, "every love is a destroyer." I was like, whoa, every one? And there's something really compelling about that mode of— because it's earnest, and it's backed up by the work that she's written. I would never think to say that.   Melissa: I have a question for you, lit friend. Do you think you would be less into me if I weren't? Because I think for a nonfiction writer, I'm pretty obsessed with sentences. It's writing sentences that makes, that's the thing I love most about writing. It's like where the pleasure is for me. So I'm a pretty poetically inclined nonfiction writer. If I were less so, do you think that would be less seductive to you as a reader or a lit friend?   Donika: I mean, that's like asking me to imagine like, "so, what if… (20:30) water wasn't wet?" I just like, I can't like, I can't imagine. I do think the pleasure of the sentence is so intrinsic to like, I think there's something in the, in your impulse at the sentence level. That means that you're just careful. You're not rushing. You're not rushing us through an experience or keeping us in there and focused. And it's just it's tricky to imagine, or almost impossible to imagine what your work would look like if that weren't the impulse.   Lito: Yeah, I think that's an essential part of your style in some ways, that you're taking that time.   Melissa: Mm-hmm.    Annie: And how you see the world. Like I don't even think you would get to those big revelations Donika's talking about without it.   Melissa: Yeah. Right. I don't, yeah, I don't think I would either. We'll be right back.   Lito (21:19) Hey Lit Fam, Lit Friends is taking a break for the holiday. We hope you'll join us for our next episode with our guests, Ian Lee and Edmund White on January 16th. Till then, may your holiday be lit, your presents be numerous, and your 2024 be filled with joy and peace. If you'd like to show us some love, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much. Big hugs to you and yours. Thank you for listening. And thank you for making season one a big success!   Annie: (22:05) Welcome back.   Lito: I've noticed that both of you, you know, you have your genres that you work in, but within that you're experimenting a lot with form and structure. Does anything of that come from being queer? I guess it's a question about queering forms of literature, and what that has to do also with the kinds of friendships that queer people have, and if that's different, maybe. So I guess I'm asking to connect form with queerness and friendship.   Melissa: That's a beautiful question. I think, and I'm starting with thinking about my relationship to form, which has been one of inheriting some scripts for forms. This is what an essay should look like. This is what plot structure looks like. This is how you construct a narrative. And sort of taking those for granted a little bit, and then pretty early on, understanding the limitations of those structures and the ways that they require that I contort myself and my content such that it feels like a perversion or betrayal of sort of what I'm dealing with, right? And so the way I characterize my trajectory, the trajectory of my relationship to form has been sort of becoming conscious of those inherited forms, and then pushing the boundaries of them and modifying them and distorting them and adding things to them and figuring out, letting my work sort of teach me what form it rests most easily in and is most transparent in. And I suspect that my relationship to friendship and particularly queer friendship mimics that.   Donika: Yeah, that sounds right to me. And I'm reminded of Denise Levertov has this essay titled "On the Function of the Line." And in it, she presents an argument that closed forms, received forms, are based on a kind of assumption of resolution, and that free verse or open design, like in a poem, it shows evidence of the speaker's thinking.   (24:24) Right? So that where the line breaks, the speaker is pausing, right? To gather their thoughts or like a turn might happen that's unexpected that mimics the turns in thinking. And I really love that essay. Like that essay is one of my favorites. So when I think about my approach to form, I'm like, what is the shape that this poem is asking for? What is the shape that will do, that will help the poem do its best work? And not even like to be good, but just like to be true.   I really love the sonnet shape. Like it's one of my favorite shapes. And it's so interesting and exciting to use a shape that is based on like argumentative structure or a sense of resolution, to explore. Like to use that as an exploratory space, it feels like queering our, like my expectations of what the sonnet does. Like there's something about the box. If I bounce around inside that box, there's gonna be something that comes out of that, that I wouldn't necessarily have gotten otherwise, but it's not resolution. Like the point is not resolution.   And when I think about my relationships and my chosen family, in particular, and to some degree actually my given family, part of what I'm thinking about is how can I show up and care and what does care look like in this relationship and how can I make room to be cared for? And that's so hard, like being cared for is so much more alien to me than, like, as a concept, like I feel like very anxious about it. I'm like, "am I asking for too much?" And like over and over again, my chosen family is like, "no, it's not too much. Like we, we got each other."   Melissa: I think particularly for queer people, we understand that it doesn't preclude romance or healthy kinds of dependency or unhealthy kinds of dependency, you know, that all of the things that happen in a very deep love relationship happen inside of friendship, where I think sort of like straight people and dominant culture have been like, "oh, no, like friendship isn't the site of like great romance or painful divorce or abuse." And queer people understand that all of those things happen within relationships that we call friendships.   Annie: (26:46) Yeah, I mean, I'm hearing you both talk about kind of queer survival and joy and even, Donika, what you were saying about having to adjust to being cared for as a kind of, you know, that's a sort of, to me, it's a sort of like a survivor's stance in the world. One of the things that I love about my kinship with Lito as, you know, my queer lit friend and, you know, brother from another mother is that he holds that space for me and I, you know, vice versa.   Even thinking about vulnerability, I think you both wield vulnerability as a tool of subversion too, right? And again, Lito and I are both creating projects right now that require a kind of rawness on the page. I'm about to publish a memoir called Sex with a Brain Injury, so I'm very consciously thinking about how we define vulnerability, what kind of work it does to reshape consciousness in the collective. And the ways that you each write about trauma helps us understand it as an act of reclamation, you know, power rather than powerlessness. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what is or what can be transformative about the confessional and maybe even more to the point, what does your lit friend teach you about vulnerability?   Melissa: (28:06) Oh, God, what doesn't she teach me about vulnerability? It's interesting because like you're correct that vulnerability is like very central to my work and to the like lifelong project of my work, and also like there's literally nothing on earth I would like to avoid more. And I don't think that is visible in my work, right? Because my work is the product of counteracting that set of instincts, which I must do to survive because the part of me that wants to avoid vulnerability, its end point is like literally death for me.   It is writing for me often starts from like kind of a pragmatic practice. I don't start like feeling my feelings. I write to get to my feelings and sometimes that doesn't happen until like after a book is published sometimes. You know like it's really interesting lately I've been confronting some feelings in like a really deep way that I think I have gotten access to from writing Girlhood, which came out in 2021. And it's like I had to sort of lay it all out, understand what happened, redefine my role in it and everyone else's. And I definitely had feelings while I was writing it. But like the feelings that Donika refers to as the big boss, like the deepest feelings about it. Like I, I feel like I'm only really getting. to it now.   My relationship to vulnerability, it's just like, it's a longitudinal process, you know? And there's no one who's taught me about that and how to be sort of like gentle and patient within that and to show up for it than Donika.   And I'm just thinking of like, you know, starting from pretty early in our relationship, she was working on the poems in The Renunciations, and over the years of our early, the early years of our relationship, she was confronting some childhood, some really profound childhood trauma. And she was doing that in therapy. And then there were like pieces of that work that she had to do in the poems. And I just watched her not force it. And when it was time, she like created the space to do the work. And like, I wasn't (30:35) there for that. I don't think anyone else really could have been there for that. And just like showing up for that work.   And then like the long tail of like publishing a book and having conversations with people and the way that it changes one's relationship and like the act of the vulnerability—achieved feels like the wrong word—but the vulnerability like expressed or found in the writing process, how that is just like a series of doorways and a hallway that maybe it never terminates. Maybe it doesn't even turn into death. I don't know. You know, but I've just seen her show up for that process with like a patience and a tenderness for herself at every age that I find incredibly challenging. And it's been super instructive for me.   Donika: Ooh. I, I'm, it makes me really happy to know that's your experience of like being like in like shared artistic space together. I think I go to poetry to understand, to help myself understand what it is that I'm holding and what it is that I wanna put down. Like that's what the poems are for. You know, like the act of writing helps me sort out what I need and what I wanna put down because narrative is so powerful. It feels like the one place where I can say things that are really hard, often because I've already said them in therapy.   Right? So then it's like, I can then explore what having said those hard things means in my life or how it sits in my life. And what Melissa shows me is that one can revise. I know I've said this like a few times, but that one can have a narrative. Like I think about reading Whipsmart and the story that she has about herself as a child in Whipsmart, and then how that begins to change a bit in Abandon Me. And then in Girlhood, it's really disrupted. And there is so much more tenderness there, I think. It looks really hard. Like, honestly, that joint looks hard because I might be in a poem, but I'm in it for like, like we're in it, like if I were to read it out loud for like a minute and a half.   Melissa: (33:50) It's interesting hearing you talk. I wonder if this is true. I think I'm hearing that it is true. And I think that's where it's with my experience that you often get to the feelings like in therapy or wherever, and then write the poems as more of a sort of emotional, but like also cognitive and kind of systemic and like a way of like making sense of it or putting it in context. And I think very much I, there'll be like deeply submerged feelings that emerge only as like impulses or something, you know, but I experience writing— I don't that often feel intense emotion while I'm writing. I think it's why that is writing is almost always the first place that I encounter my own vulnerability or that I say the like unspeakable thing or the thing that I have been unable to say. I often write it and then I can talk to my therapist about it or then I can talk to Donika about it.   And I think I can't. I'm too afraid or it feels like too much to feel the feelings while I'm writing. So I sort of experience it as a cognitive or like intellectual and creative exercise. And then once I understand it, sometime in the next five years, I feel the feelings.   Annie: Do you feel like it's a kind of talking to yourself or like talking outside of the world? Like what is it in that space that does that for you?   Melissa: Yeah, I do. I mean, it's like. Talking outside the world makes more sense to me than talking to myself. I mean, it is talking to myself, right? It's a conversation with myself, but it's removed from the context of me in my daily life. That's why it's possible. Within my daily life, I'm too connected to other people and my own internal pressures and just like the busy, superficial part of me that's like driving a lot of my days. I have to get away from her in order to do that work.   And so the writing really happens in a kind of separate space and feels like it is not, it has a kind of privacy that I don't experience in any other way in my life, where I really have built or found a space where I am never thinking about what other people think of me, and I'm not imagining a skeptical reader. (35:18) It is really like this weird spiritual, emotional, creative, intellectual space that is just separate from all of that, where I can sort of think and be curious freely.   And I think I created that space or found it really early on because I was, even as a kid, I was a person who was like so concerned with the people around me, with the adults around me, with what performances were expected of me. And being a person who was like very deeply thinking and feeling, I was like, well, there's no room for that here. So I need to like find somewhere else to do it. And so I think writing became that for me way before I thought about being a writer.   Lito: That's so fascinating to me. I think that's so different than how I work or Donika works or a lot of people I know. We'll be right back.   Lito: (36:26) Back to the show.   So this question is for both of you really, but it just makes me wonder then like, what is the role for emotion, but in particular anger? How does that like, when things get us angry, sometimes that motivates us to do something, right? So if you're not being inspired by an emotion to write, you're writing and then finding it, how does anger work as not only a tool for survival, but maybe a path towards personhood and freedom?   Donika: Oh, I was just thinking, I can't write out of that space, the space of anger. It took me a long time to get in touch with anger as a feeling. That took a really long time because in my family, in my given family, the way that people expressed anger was so dangerous that I felt that I didn't want to occupy those spaces. I didn't want to move emotionally into that, into that space if that was what it looked like. And it took me a long time to figure out how to be angry. And I'm still not sure that I'm great at it. Because I think often I'm moving quickly to like what's under that feeling. And often what's under my feelings of being angry, often, not always, is being hurt, feeling hurt. And I can… write into exploring what that hurt is, because I know how to do that with some tenderness and some care.   Melissa: I feel similarly, which is interesting, because we've never talked about this, I don't think. But anger is also a feeling that I think, for very different reasons, when I was growing up… I mean, I think just like baseline being socialized as a girl dissuaded me from expressing anger or even from feeling it, because where would that go?   But I also think in the particular environment that I was in, I understood pretty early that my expressions of anger would be like highly injurious to the people around me and that it would be better if I found another way to express those things. I think my compulsive inclinations have been really useful in that way. And it's taken me a lot of my adult life to sort of… (38:44) take my anger or as Donika said, you know, like anger for me almost always factors down to something that is largely powerlessness, you know, to sort of not take the terror and fury of powerlessness and express it through like ultimately self harming means.   Writing can be a way for me to arrive at like justifiable anger and to sort of feel that and let that move through me or to be like, oh, that was unjust. I was powerless in that situation. You know? Yeah, it has helped me in that way. But like, if I'm really being honest, I think I exhaust myself with exercise. And that's how I mostly deal with my feelings of anger.   Annie: Girl.   Melissa: Yeah, there's also a way I will say that like, I do think it actually comes out in my work in some ways. Like there is like a very direct, not people-pleasing vibe and tone in my work that is genuine, but that I almost never have in my life. Like maybe a little bit as a professor, but like    When Donika met me, she was like, "Oh… like you're just like this little gremlin puppy person. You're not like this intense convicted former dominatrix." You know, which is, I express it in my writing because it is a space where I'm not worried about placating or pleasing really. It's a space where I'm, I am almost solely interested in what I actually think.   Donika: I was just thinking about like the beginning of, I think it's "Wild America," when you talk about like not cleaning your room, Melissa. Because you didn't, like when you were a kid, right? It was like you cleaned your room when you wanted to appear good, but that didn't matter to you when you were alone in your room. Like you could get lost in a book or you could, you know, like just be inside yourself alone when you were alone in your room. And that's one of my favorite passages that you read. Like I'm always sort of like mouthing along, like it's a song.   Melissa: (40:57) I'm just interested and I really love the sort of conception of like a girl's room as a potential space that sort of maps on to the way I described the writing space where it's just like a space where other, where the gaze of others, or the gaze that we're taught to please like can be kept out to some extent. And just like, you know, that isn't true, obviously for like lots and lots and lots of girls, but just that there is an impetus for us to create or invent or designate a space where that is true.   Lito: Yeah, I think that's what she's up to in "A Room of One's Own."   Annie: It makes me think of like girls' rooms as like kind of also these reductive spaces, like they all have to have pink or whatever, but then you like carve out a secret space for yourself in that room, which I think is what you're talking about with your writing.   Donika: Oh, I was just thinking about what happens when you don't have a room like that, cause I didn't, like I absolutely did not have a room that was… inviolable in some way or that like really felt like I could close the door. But writing became a place where that work could happen and where those explorations could happen and where I could do whatever I want and I had control over so many aspects of the work. And I hesitated because I was saying I didn't have that much control over the content.   Like I might think, oh, I'm gonna write a poem about this or a poem about that. And as is true with most writing, the poems are so much smarter and reveal so much more than I might have intended, but I could like shape the box. There are just like so many places to have control in a poem, like there's so many mechanisms to consider where like when Melissa was first sharing like early work with me, I would get so nervous because I would wanna move a comma.   Because in a poem, like that's a big deal, moving somebody's commas around, changing the punctuation. And she was like, "it doesn't matter."   Melissa: I would get nervous because she would be like, "well, I just have one note, but it's like, kind of big." And I would be like, "oh, fuck, I failed." And she would be like,    Donika: "What's going on with these semicolons?"   Melissa: She'd be like, "I just, these semicolons."   Annie: You know, hearing you both talk about (43:20) how you show up for one another as readers, right? In addition to like romantic partners. I mean, we do have the sense, and this can be true of all marriages, queer or otherwise, where like we as readers have a pretty superficial understanding of what you kind of each bring to the table or how you create this protective space or really see one another. I imagine that you've saved yourselves, but I'm curious about to what extent this relationship may have also been a way to save you or subvert relationships that have come before. And yet at the same time, we've asked this question of other lit friends too, which is, you know, what about competition between lit friends? And what does that look like in a marriage? What is a good day versus a bad day?   Donika: I mean, we could be here for years talking about that first question. And so I'm gonna turn to the second part to talk about competition, which is much easier to handle.   I feel genuinely and earnestly so excited at the recognition that Melissa has received. Part of what was really exciting for me about the beginning of our relationship that continues to be exciting is that, is getting to watch someone be truly mid-career and navigate that with integrity. It feels like such a good model, for how to be a writer.   I mean, she's much more forward-facing than I would ever want to be. But I think in terms of just thinking about like, what is the work? How, like, where is the integrity? Like, it's just, it's always so, so forward and it feels really grounding for me and us in the house, so it's always big cheers in here. It helps that we write in different genres. I think that's super helpful.   Melissa: I think it's absolutely key. Yeah.   Donika: It's not, I mean, I think, and that we have very different measures of ambition. I think those two things together are really, really helpful.   But I've read everything that Melissa has written, I think. (45:38) There might be like a few little, I mean, I've read short story, like that short, there was like a short story from like shortly, I think after you, like before you were in your MFA program, maybe.   Melissa: Oh my God. What short story?   Donika: I can't, I'll find it. And show it to you later.   Melissa: Is it about that little plant?   Donika: No, no, it might've been an essay. I'm not sure.   Annie: I love this. This is sort of hot breaking news on LitFriends.   Donika: It's like, I've just like, I did a deep Google dive. I was like, I want to read everything and it's, it feels really exciting.   Melissa: You know, I've dated writers before, and it was a different situation. And I think even if I hadn't, even before I ever did, I thought, that seems unlikely to work. Because even though there are lots of like obvious ways that it could be great, the competition just seemed like such a poison dart that it would be really hard to avoid because writers are competitive, and I'm competitive. And maybe it would have been harder if we were younger or something.   And certainly if we were in the same genre, I think actually, who knows? Maybe it would be possible if we were in the same genre, but it would require a little more care. Even if for some reason we would never publish again, we would keep writing. It just like it functions in our lives in similar ways. And it's like a practice that we came to, you know, I have a more hungry ambition or have historically. And I think our relationship is something that helps me keep the practice at the center because we're constantly talking about it. And I'm constantly observing Donika's relationship to her work. So it really hasn't felt very relevant. Like it's kind of shocking to me how, how little impact competition or comparing has in our relationship. It's really like not even close to one of the top notes of things that might create conflict for us, you know, and I'm so grateful for that. And so happy to have like underestimated what's possible when you have a certain level of intimacy and respect and sort of compatibility with someone.   Lito: We'll be right back.   Annie: (47:57) Welcome back. Well, then I'm wondering, you know, you both have had some like incredible successes in the last few years. And I'm wondering if conversely, you've been able to show up for one another in moments of high pressure or exposure, or, you know, having to confront the world, having been vulnerable on the page in the ways you have been.   Melissa: Donika was not planning on having a book launch for The Renunciations.   Donika: What's a book launch? Like, why do people do that?   Annie: Listen, mine's going to be a dance party, Donika. So…   Melissa: And I made, meanwhile, like when I published Abandon Me, I had a giant dance party that I had like several costume changes for during. But I remember feeling pretty confident about making a strong case multiple times for her to have a book launch for The Renunciations. And also like having a lot of respect and like tenderness watching her navigate what it meant to take work that vulnerable and figure out how to like speak for it and talk about it and like present it to the world. Parts of her would have preferred to just let the book completely speak for itself out there.    Donika: But you were right it was a good time.   Melissa: I was right.   Donika: Because like when Melissa's so when Girlhood came out it was like, that was still the time of like so many virtual events. And it was just like, I think that first week there was like something every day that week, like there was an event every day that week. And now, now like, again, I had to be talked into having a book launch. So I own this. Um, but I was like, Ooh, why, why would you do that? Oh, yeah. Four?   Melissa: This is definitely one of the ways that she and I are like diametrically opposed, and therefore I think, helpful to each other in sort of like creating a kind of tension that can be uncomfortable but is mostly good for both of us to be sort of pulled closer to the middle.   Donika: But my favorite part of that is then hearing you give advice to your friends who are very similar and be like, "whoa, you did too much. You put too many things on the calendar."     Melissa: (50:15) You know, some people would say that that's hypocrisy, but I actually think, I have a real dubious like position and thinking about hypocrisy because I am an expert in overdoing things. And so I think I speak from, I am like the voice of Christmas future. You know what I mean? I'm like, let me speak to you from the potential future that you are currently planning with your publicist. And like, it's not pretty and it doesn't feel good. And it's not, it has not delivered the feeling that you're imagining when you're scheduling all those events.   Annie: I can appreciate this. And I appreciate Donika's kind of role, this particular role in a relationship, because sometimes I just have to go see Leto and literally just lay on Lito and be like, stop me from doing anymore.   Melissa: I know, I know.   Lito: You and Sara are like super overachievers. I have to be like, "can you calm down?"   Annie: We do too much.   Lito: Way too much. What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next?   Donika: I got two answers to this. The first one is the Cape Cod lesbian mystery. I'm ready. You know, we got, I've offered so much assistance as a person who will never write prose. Um, but I got notes and ideas. The second one is, uh, a micro essay collection titled Dogs I Have Loved. Cause I think it would be a New York Times bestseller.   Lito: Oh, I love that.   Donika: I know.   Lito: Speaking of, who's the little gremlin puppy there?   Donika: Oh, yeah, that's Chuck. Chuck is a 15-year-old chihuahua. I've had him since he was a puppy.   Annie: Is Chuck like a nickname, or is that just, it's just Chuck?   Donika: It's just Chuck.   Lito: I love that.   Melissa: His nickname is Charles sometimes. One of his nicknames is Charles, but his full name is Chuck.   Melissa: OK, so I would say, I mean, my first thought at this question was like, I want Donika to keep doing exactly what she's been doing? As far as I can tell, she doesn't have a lot of other voices getting in the way of that process. My second thought is that I'm really interested. I've never heard her talk. She has no interest in writing prose of any kind. She is like deeply wedded to poetry. But I have heard her talk more recently about potential collaborations with (52:40) other artists, visual artists and other writers. And I would, I'm really excited to see what comes out of that space.   Lito: Would you all ever collaborate beyond your marriage?   Annie: I could see you all doing a craft book together.   Melissa: I feel like we could make like a chapbook that had prose and poems in it that were responding to a shared theme. I could definitely see that.   Donika: I really thought you were gonna say Love Poems for Melissa Febos, that's what you wanted to see next.   Melissa: I mean, I already know that that's on deck, so I don't... I mean, it's in, it's on the docket. It's on deck. Yeah. So…   Lito: Those sonnets, get to work on the sonnets.   Donika: Such a mess.   Melissa: This is real, you think, this is not, like, a conversation of the moment. This is…   Annie: Oh no, we can, this is history.   Donika: "Where's my century of sonnets?" she says.   Lito (53:33) What is your first memory?   Donika: Dancing?   Melissa: Donika telling me I'm pretty.   Annie (54:15.594) Who or what broke your heart first?   Melissa: Maddie, our dog.   Donika: Kerri Strug, 1996 Olympics. Vault.   Lito: Atlanta.   Donika: The Vault final. Yeah. Heartbreaking.   Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history, living or dead?   Donika: I just thought Gwendolyn Brooks. I'm gonna go with that.   Lito: I love Gwendolyn Brooks.   Donika: Oh yeah.   Melissa: My first thought is Baldwin.   Donika: It's a great party. We're at a great party.   Melissa: I just feel like I would be like, "No, James!" all the time.   Melissa: (54:30) Or like Truman Capote.   Lito: It'd be wild.   Donika: Messy. So messy.   Annie: What's your favorite piece of music?   Melissa: Oh my god, these questions are crazy! "Hallelujah"?   Donika: Oh god, there's an aria from Diana Damraus' first CD. She's a Soprano. And it's a Mozart aria, and I don't know where it's from, and I can't tell you the name because it's in Italian and I don't speak Italian, but that joint is exceptional. So that's what I'm gonna go with. Oh God, just crying in the car.   Lito: If you could give any gift to your lit friend without limitations, what would you give them?   Donika: Just like gold chains. So many gold chains. Yeah! If I could have a gold chain budget, it'd be a lot.   Annie: (55:23) Donika, we can do this.   Lito: Achievable.   Donika: I mean, yeah. Yeah.   Lito: Bling budget.   Donika: That's the first thing I thought.   Annie: Love it.   Donika: Just like gold, just thin gold chains, thick gold chains.   Melissa: I'm going to go with that, then, and say an infinite sneaker budget.   Lito: Yes. Oh, I want a shoe room. (55:50) That'd be awesome.   Melissa: We need two shoe rooms in this house, or like one. Or we just need to have a whole living room that's just for shoes.   Donika: I just like there's just like one closet that's just like for shoes. Like that's what we need.   Lito: That's great.   Donika: Yeah, but it's actually a room. Yes. With like a sorting system, it's like computer coded.   Annie: Soft lighting. That's our show.   Annie & Lito: Thanks for listening.   Lito: We'll be back next week with our guests Yiyun Li and Edmund White.   Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast.   Lito: Don't forget to reach out and tell us about the love affair of you and your LitFriend.   Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.   Lito: And I'm Lito Velázquez. Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton.   Annie: Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.   Lito: Lizette Saldana is our marketing director.   Annie: Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.   Lito: And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez.   Annie: This was LitFriends, Episode Three.    

If you're dealing with the emotional fall out of a layoff or job search, trust me. You are not alone. That's why over at BossmakeHer we've engagement Melissa Lapides to support our members on the journey. In this episode, I'm talking with Melissa about what women are going through, why, and how they can manage the unspoken issues in today's tumultuous market. “So many times, achievement is born out of a space of trauma,” explains Melissa Lapides, trauma and psychological and safety attachment expert and founder of the Safe Space Institute. According to Dr. Gabor Mate, she explains, trauma is choosing attachment over authenticity, and many high-achieving women in leadership define themselves by their careers. Consequently, when they are laid off, those feelings of trauma tend to resurface along with an identity crisis.  This is where Melissa comes in. She teaches women to connect with their true selves so that they learn to attach internally, and are able to transition into careers that better reflect who they really are and what they want, so as not to perpetuate the trauma. She helps with professional development, facing the pressure of a job search in a saturated market, and balancing aspirational goals with practical ones. Part of Melissa's work is helping shift women's mindset from one of doing to one of being. Most women carry around a good deal of guilt and shame and the physical consequences are serious. Join the discussion to hear Melissa explain the one question that women at the top aren't asked often enough. Quotes “So many times that achievement is born out of a space of trauma, of having to constantly get somewhere to the next place without any space to be…Oftentimes, in order to make those achievements, you have to actually repress a lot of your emotions to keep going and getting to the next level.” (5:11 | Melissa)  “That's what they say is the definition of trauma. Dr. Gabor Mate talks about this: it's when we choose attachment over authenticity.” (10:56 | Melissa) “These are the protective mechanisms that have to be on for these women to survive in these environments. Teaching them to take those protector mechanisms off at a pace they're ready for, has been so beautiful. Watching them take this weight off and be able to come forth in their fullness, and really be seen, accepted and supported there, is one of the most beautiful things…because different environments require different levels of armor.” (17:37 | Melissa) “You can't settle. I really believe that if you really hold what you value, then you're not going to settle. That's part of that self confidence work and that self worth work is about. Once you're in your authentic self, you have to hold on to that and protect that and be really choosy about what environment you're going to be in because you don't want to end up hurting yourself and your mental health.” (19:05 | Melissa)  “There's always room for emotional work and it's always necessary. I tell people, it's just as important as going to the gym and eating kale. If you're going to the gym and eating kale and your mental health isn't being attended to, you're still going to end up in a bad place.” (25:43 | Melissa)  “It's so true that women hold so much guilt and shame, two things that are so collective in women that we need to be working on all the time because those things are killers. They are literally at the root of so much disease in women. And we have to really look at how we are still holding those things inside of us and constantly be processing them.” (28:33 | Melissa) Links Connect with Melissa Lapides: Website: melissalapideslmft.com Instagram: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-lapides-9109a811/ Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bossmakeher/message

As we anticipate the imminent arrival of the NEW RHONY, Melissa takes us back to Peak RHONY — Scary Island; hop on board if you dare!Here we meet Kelly Bensimon: model, mom… jelly bean lover. As we try to make sense of her “scary” behavior, Melissa informs us there is *literally* more to the story than what aired on the show, but the question is, does it make a difference?On the heels of RHONY, Kelly didn't exemplify model behavior and was charged with misdemeanor assault, but that didn't stop her from publishing multiple books, getting into the luxury real estate game, and being a TikTok disaster.Come for the nostalgia, stay for the Jeffrey Epstein reference nobody saw coming!Next episode will be an update episode, and there are LOTS.Here's what the hosts are watching as of today's episode:Melissa: You, Me, and My Ex, TLC/Discovery +Rebekah: RHOSLC Re-watch, PeacockFollow us on social media! We are @criminalityshow on IG/FB + Twitter, but mostly just IG.You can say hi and tell us what you're watching: criminalityshow@gmail.comEnjoy the show? Please rate/review then share with a friend because loving REALITY isn't a CRIME! https://pod.link/criminalityCheck out our website: https://www.criminalityshow.com/SOURCESGRAZIA MAGAZINEhttps://graziamagazine.com/us/articles/kelly-killoren-bensimon-profile-exclusive/WESTLAKE MALIBU LIFESTYLE MAGAZINEhttps://wmlifestyle.com/cover-story-kelly-killoren-bensimon/US MAGAZINEhttps://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/rhony-alum-kelly-bensimon-25-things-you-dont-know-about-me/DAILY MAILhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11751269/RHNY-Kelly-Killoren-Bensimons-1m-indecent-proposal.htmlhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9390383/Kelly-Bensimon-EXCLUSIVE-packs-PDA-boyfriend-Nick-Stefanov-assault-arrest.htmlNEW YORK POSThttps://nypost.com/2009/03/10/beau-i-got-a-wife-beating/https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/fashion/thursdaystyles/18KELLY.htmlKKBLOVES.COMhttp://www.kkbloves.com/uncategorized/modelfit/DOUGLAS ELLIMANhttps://kellykillorenbensimon.elliman.com/profileNEW YORK MAGAZINEhttps://nymag.com/intelligencer/2009/03/real_housewife_kelly_killoren.htmlNBChttps://www.nbcwashington.com/local/_real_housewives__model_settles_assault_case/1850474/“Real Housewife” Kelly Bensimon Makes Nude Debut in Playboy – NBC Chicago.GAWKERhttps://www.gawker.com/551495/gilles-bensimonPOP VIEWERShttps://popviewers.com/kelly-killoren-bensimon-reveals-the-truth-behind-rhonys-scary-island-episode/YOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/DcJHIQ9UkbAhttps://youtu.be/jWcbal1ji_UPEOPLE MAGAZINE'Real Housewives of New York' Alum Kelly Bensimon Engaged to Financier Scott Litner: 'Over the Moon'MARIE CLAIREhttps://www.marieclaire.com/career-advice/she-pivots-kelly-bensimon/REDDIThttps://www.reddit.com/r/BravoRealHousewives/comments/v6n934/kelly_bensimon_advertising_jeffrey_epsteins/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

As we anticipate the imminent arrival of the NEW RHONY, Melissa takes us back to Peak RHONY — Scary Island; hop on board if you dare! Here we meet Kelly Bensimon: model, mom… jelly bean lover. As we try to make sense of her “scary” behavior, Melissa informs us there is *literally* more to the story than what aired on the show, but the question is, does it make a difference?  On the heels of RHONY, Kelly didn't exemplify model behavior and was charged with misdemeanor assault, but that didn't stop her from publishing multiple books, getting into the luxury real estate game, and being a TikTok disaster.  Come for the nostalgia, stay for the Jeffrey Epstein reference nobody saw coming!  Next episode will be an update episode, and there are LOTS. Here's what the hosts are watching as of today's episode: Melissa: You, Me, and My Ex, TLC/Discovery + Rebekah: RHOSLC Re-watch, Peacock Follow us on social media! We are @criminalityshow on IG/FB + Twitter, but mostly just IG. You can say hi and tell us what you're watching: criminalityshow@gmail.com Enjoy the show? Please rate/review then share with a friend because loving REALITY isn't a CRIME! https://pod.link/criminality Check out our website: https://www.criminalityshow.com/ SOURCES GRAZIA MAGAZINE https://graziamagazine.com/us/articles/kelly-killoren-bensimon-profile-exclusive/ WESTLAKE MALIBU LIFESTYLE MAGAZINE https://wmlifestyle.com/cover-story-kelly-killoren-bensimon/ US MAGAZINE https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/rhony-alum-kelly-bensimon-25-things-you-dont-know-about-me/ DAILY MAIL https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11751269/RHNY-Kelly-Killoren-Bensimons-1m-indecent-proposal.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9390383/Kelly-Bensimon-EXCLUSIVE-packs-PDA-boyfriend-Nick-Stefanov-assault-arrest.html NEW YORK POST https://nypost.com/2009/03/10/beau-i-got-a-wife-beating/ https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/fashion/thursdaystyles/18KELLY.html KKBLOVES.COM http://www.kkbloves.com/uncategorized/modelfit/ DOUGLAS ELLIMAN https://kellykillorenbensimon.elliman.com/profile NEW YORK MAGAZINE https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2009/03/real_housewife_kelly_killoren.html NBC https://www.nbcwashington.com/local/_real_housewives__model_settles_assault_case/1850474/ “Real Housewife” Kelly Bensimon Makes Nude Debut in Playboy – NBC Chicago. GAWKER https://www.gawker.com/551495/gilles-bensimon POP VIEWERS https://popviewers.com/kelly-killoren-bensimon-reveals-the-truth-behind-rhonys-scary-island-episode/ YOUTUBE https://youtu.be/DcJHIQ9UkbA https://youtu.be/jWcbal1ji_U PEOPLE MAGAZINE 'Real Housewives of New York' Alum Kelly Bensimon Engaged to Financier Scott Litner: 'Over the Moon' MARIE CLAIRE https://www.marieclaire.com/career-advice/she-pivots-kelly-bensimon/ REDDIT https://www.reddit.com/r/BravoRealHousewives/comments/v6n934/kelly_bensimon_advertising_jeffrey_epsteins/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we'll be talking about our recent trip to Quito, Ecuador as part of our journey to the Galápagos Islands. We'll journey back in time to the 16th century and Colonial Quito during the Spanish Colonization period. There we'll see the Gilded Churches, and then make our way to the center of the earth as we visit a museum on Andean culture located on the Equator. Pack your bag and joins us as we share the sites, tastes and fun facts that we learned along the way. In this episode we share why we went to Quito, Ecuador in the first place, why we used a travel agency in Ecuador to help us book this trip, and the tour options that were available to us in Quito and why we chose the one we did. We also walk you through what our day in Quito was like, why we loved having a tour guide here, and of course, what you need to pack for a day in this colonial city. So if you are headed to Ecuador or to South America, would like to, or just want to know more about this amazing city, Tune in NOW! Links we talk about in this Episode: Our travel agent was Diana Endara at Galapagos Travel Center Intinan Museum and the Ecuador www.facebook.com/mueseointinan History of Quito: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_evolution_of_colonial_Quito Our hotel: Swissotel Quito - Luxury Hotel In Quito - Swissôtel Hotels & Resorts Our Tour Guide: Giovanny Viansaca Phone : (338) 979398449 Email: thisisusecuador@gmail.com Kiva.org Want an easy way to do some real good in the world? Join me on Kiva to make small loans to support local Ecuadorians. Follow our travels on Facebook Follow our travels on Instagram here and here Save our travel ideas on Pinterest Quito Packing List: Sturdy walking shoes (like many older and colonial cities, the streets are stone and tile and you need to be able walk safely on uneven surfaces) Anytime you are visiting churches I would recommend pants or skirt and to wear or bring something to cover your shoulders so I had a light jacket which is good if a building is cold too Phones and cameras for pictures and A small bag or backpack A hat and sunscreen and sunglasses (you are near the equator) on sunny days Rain jacket or umbrella if it is rainy season Our guide also said that it could be sunny in the morning and then rain showers in the afternoon so it's a good idea to carry along a backpack and have both. Credit card and then Cash for tips and souvenirs The Ecuador museum also had a stamp you could stamp in your passport so you can bring that along if you wanted to and keep it safely tucked away in your bag Music Credit Music by OYStudio from Pixabay Episode Transcript (continued on episode webpage): I'm Scott and I'm Melissa and we are the Sunshine Travelers. Our passion is travel and sharing our experiences with those who enjoy it as much as we do, or want to learn more about travel, and even those that just want to live vicariously through our travel stories. No matter where you fall along that journey, get ready to hear about our first hand experiences as we visit some of the most amazing places on earth. Today we'll be talking about our recent trip to Quito, Ecuador as part of our journey to the Galápagos Islands. We'll journey back in time to the 16th century and Colonial Quito during the Spanish Colonization period. There we'll see the Gilded Churches, and then make our way to the center of the earth as we visit a museum on Andean culture located on the Equator. Pack your bag and joins us as we share the sites, tastes and fun facts that we learned along the way. Scott: Ecuador is a country of 18 million people located on the Western Coast of South America. It is bordered by Colombia on the north, Peru on the east and south, and the Pacific Ocean on the west. Ecuador also includes the Galápagos Islands. Ecuador is made up of many indigenous groups of people that were gradually incorporated into the Inca Empire by the 15th century. The territory was colonized by Spain during the 16th century and finally emerged as its own sovereign state in 1830. For more on the history of Ecuador we'll put a few links in the show notes that can help you visit this incredible country first hand. Our original plan was to record this episode while in Quito but I think we underestimated the impact of Quito's elevation at almost 10k ft above sea level. It takes a little while to get used to and we were only there for 1.5 days. So let's talk a little about how we ended up in Quito. Melissa, you were heavily engaged in the planning of this trip Melissa: If you listened to the episode where we talked about our bucket list for travel, you'll know that the Galápagos Islands were on the list even though we hadn't originally planned to go so soon. Last year we were approached by a couple of our friends to join them on this trip and our immediate answer was “let's go”. So we immediately began making plans because these trips fill up fast. We booked this trip through a travel company called Galapagos Travel Center and their website is https://www.galapagosislands.com/ We worked with Diana. They want you to arrive a day early in Ecuador because from many parts of the world there is only one flight a day and it gives you some buffer (and more tourism for them) so part of our tour package included a guided tour on the day that we were in Quito. We had a choice of three different tour options which included two nature options or a trip to the Equator and tour of Colonial Quito. Scott: I wanted to do the one that included the gilded churches. I've been to Quito for work before, but didn't do any sight seeing while there. Several of my Ecuadorian colleagues had suggested on my next trip I should make time to see the gilded churches. Melissa: When Scott travels for work and I'm not in tow (which was most if his trips when our kids were younger) he sees the hotel, the office or client site, and wherever they take him to dinner. That's it. I'm working hard to change that, especially when I'm with him. I'll share a funny story about him in New York in an upcoming episode how I've trained him to use google maps to find what's around him. Scott: Let's back up for just a minute. We don't normally use a tour company when we travel. What made this trip so different? Melissa: You mentioned that some friends invited us to tag along and they had already been working with a travel company to book this trip when we joined in so pretty much except our input on the choice of tour we were happy to just join in on what they had been planning. With this trip though I would say the logistics of getting to and from the airport and taking another flight to get to the ship etc with necessary fees for the National park paid and documents ready to go, having the tour company on the ground in Ecuador handle all that ahead of time made the logistics easy. Scott: Would you recommend using a tour company for anyone thinking of taking this trip? Melissa: Yes I would and I also think having a travel advisor that is super familiar with the trip you are taking specifically is really important and knows exactly what flights from Quito to book and having someone to get you to and from the airport and take you on the tour. So basically we just had to get to Quito by a certain day, and they took care of the rest. So that's how we got to this point in ths Trip. Now let's tell you a little about the tours we did in Quito. It was a full day of activity that included history, visiting a volcanic crater, local cuisine and drinks, and doing all of this at approximately 10k ft above sea level. That a big deal for those of us that spend a majority of our time living no more than 20 ft above sea level. Melissa: We started our day with a visit to the Intinan Museum which boasts that the actual equator flows through the site of this Indigenous History museum rather than the official monument that you can see towering over the location which celebrates ancient civilizations that once inhabited this region. If you take the guided tour a student from the local college will provide you with information about the ancient cultures and then lead you to what they claim to be the actual equator. If you have a GPS, you should be able to pinpoint that this location sits less than 2 One-Hundreths of a degree off the actual equator. Scott: It's amazing that these ancient cultures figured this out without the advantage of today's modern tools such as GPS. They literally used rocks and the sun to determine exactly where the Equator or "center of the earth" existed. We were able to do some pretty interesting experiments such as balancing a raw egg on top of nailhead, trying to walk a straight line with our eyes closed, and see how water flows differently depending on which side of the Equator you are standing. While the last one called the correalis effect was forced for the demonstration, it does help to explain why tornadoes are in the Northern Hemisphere and Cyclones are in the southern hemisphere. Melissa: our tour guide gave us an option at this point to go to the actual historical equator monument or go to a volcanic crater. We all chose the crater because we saw the monument driving by so it would be nice to see the volcanic crater too. We left the equator and made a short drive to a volcanic crater. This crater was massive and a small community has formed in the basin of the crater. We just happened to time it with clear skies for beautiful vistas that allowed us to look down and across from the edge of the crater and imagine how massive the volcano that used to sit atop this crater must have been. If you have the time and energy, you can hike down into the crater as a day trip and visit the community that has established itself down in the basin of the crater. Our guide said that may locals will hike down and camp in the basin and is a favorite for school trips. Here was also your opportunity to get some great deals on souvenirs that have been hand-crafted by local artisans in the shops they had set up there and Don't forget to bargain for the best deals but our tour guide was on hand to help with that! (I want to note that every tour I've ever taken like this, in Mexico, Portugal and and here- a stop has always been made to support the local shop, tradesman, economy etc so this is very common to have the tour guides help support other aspects of the local economy. ) Scott: After we left the crater, our tour guide knew a local place where you can get Ecuadorian Pan ice cream. It involves spinning a large metal pan on top of ice and pouring in fresh fruit juices until it freezes into a soft frozen treat resembling ice cream. Modern versions include all kinds of flavors and on the day we were visiting, they were making bubble gum flavored. Melissa and a few of our friends that were traveling with us were allowed to try and make the dessert. They quickly realized that it was a lot tougher than it looked. Almost like patting your head and rubbing your tummy. Melissa: This was supposed to just be a quick treat but our guide knew the shop owner and so that was fun to try our hand at making it end of course trying some. We were on our way into downtown Quito where we had reservations for a delicious Ecuadorian lunch but I'll never turn down dessert first ( I even had to have 2. It was like a sorbet and made from local fruits that we don't have so why not because I could only get it here. Scott: After lunch it was time to stroll through Colonial Quito. This is something that I have been looking forward to for years since my last visit to Quito for work. We walked out onto a magnificent plaza surrounded by historic buildings, churches, cafes and even the Presidential Palace. In 1978, the city of Quito was recognized as a UNESCO Heritage Site and rewarded for being the best preserved, least altered historic Center in Latin America. Here in Colonial Quito we were able to visit three of the gilded churches built during the Spanish Colonization period. 17th-Century Jesuit church, named La Iglesia de la Compañía de Jesús, and the 16th Century church and monastery called the Iglesia y Monasterio de San Francisco. These building feature ornate interiors were covered in literaly tons of gold leaf. The Iglesia y Monasterio de San Francisco took nearly 70 years to complete, however, the style of decoration continued to evolve for another 150 years after completion. Imagine every surface covered in ornate wood and gilded with shiny gold leaf. It is definitly a sight to see. If you love architecture, this is definitely a place you are going to want to add to your travel list. A couple of the churches don't want your to take pictures while inside. Use this as an opportunity to fill your memory banks with unbelievable works of art that just isn't replicated today. Melissa: While walking around downtown, our guide introduced us to several local candies including locally made dark chocolate with interesting flavor combinations, local sugar cane liquor and other delicious snacks you will only find in Ecuador. That was the other benefit from having a guide here is that we would have missed trying all the delicious food and snacks if we had been on our own in the Old town. We finished the day with a spectacular view of Quito from an area up on the mountainside and then back to the hotel for a little rest and relaxation before dinner. Scott: We did something for dinner that we normally wouldn't do in many areas of the world. We actuallty ate at the hotel. We were all pretty tired from a full day of activities and we knew that we had to get up very early the next morning for our journey onward to the Galapagos islands. We were recommended to try some seafood paella while here and it just so happened that the hotel had a seafood restaurant in it. I've personally had paella all over the world, and this wasn't bad. It allowed us to get something good to eat and get ready for the next day without staying up too late. If you enjoy an adult beverage or two, you may want to pay attention as they say the effects of alcohol in those altitudes is much more impactful on your body and it goes to your head very quickly. Scott: So Melissa, I think we should try something new for all of our episodes that are about traveling to a specific place. Let's give the listeners a list of the essential items that they need to pack when visiting Quito. Melissa: Sturdy walking shoes (like many older and colonial cities, the streets are stone and tile and you need to be able walk safely on uneven surfaces) Anytime you are visiting churches I would recommend pants or skirt and to wear or bring something to cover your shoulders so I had a light jacket which is good if a building is cold too Phones and cameras for pictures and A small bag or backpack A hat and sunscreen and sunglasses (you are near the equator) on sunny days Rain jacket or umbrella if it is rainy season Our guide also said that it could be sunny in the morning and then rain showers in the afternoon so it's a good idea to carry along a backpack and have both. Credit card and then Cash for tips and souvenirs The Ecuador museum also had a stamp you could stamp in your passport so you can bring that along if you wanted to and keep it safely tucked away in your bag We'll put some links in the show notes where you can learn more about Quito and the contact information for our tour guide that did such a great job in sharing his vast knowledge of the geography, people and culture of Ecuador. If you have a favorite place to visit in Quito that we didn't cover, leave us a comment as we are always looking for new places to discover and things to do. We hope you enjoyed this episode and will find some inspiration for your next trip or perhaps this is something that you want to add to your bucket list. Most importantly, subscribe to our podcast and share it with your friends to help them catch the travel bug. You never know, they may become your greatest travel companion.

Many of you may be wondering what and where are the Galápagos Islands. Or perhaps this is one of the places that is already on your travel bucket list. And some of you just enjoy living vicariously through our travel adventures. If any of these apply to you, pack your bag and join us as we share our journey to the Galapagos. In this episode we discuss what and where the Galapagos islands are, how we got there (including a little travel delay along the way), what a typical day was like when cruising the Galapagos Islands, and what kinds of wildlife we snorkeled with. We let you know what essential items we packed into our bags and what you won't need and we both our favorite things about of the trip. So if the Galapagos Islands are on your bucket list or you're just curious what it would be like to travel there, tune in NOW! Links we mention in this episode: Our camera gear Go Pro Hero 11 Link Olympus TG-6 We booked our trip through Diana Endara at Galapagos Travel Center Follow our travels on Facebook Follow our travels on Instagram here and here Save our travel ideas on Pinterest Music Credit Music by OYStudio from Pixabay Episode transcript (continued on Episode webpage): I'm Scott and I'm Melissa and we are the Sunshine Travelers. Our passion is travel and sharing our experiences with those who share our passion, want to learn more about travel, or even those that just want to live vicariously through our travel experiences. No matter where you fall along that journey, get ready to hear about our first hand experiences as we visit some of the most amazing places on earth. Many of you may be wondering what and where are the Galápagos Islands. Or perhaps this is one of the places that is already on your travel bucket list. And some of you just enjoy living vicariously through our travel adventures. If any of these apply to you, pack your bag and join us as we share our journey to the Galapagos. Scott: We made it! That was the feeling of exhilaration when we finally made it on board the yacht. Melissa: Yeah it was a bit of a bumpy trip trying to get there, but we made it. We started the morning with an early flight from Quito, Ecuador. A member of our travel company picked us up from the hotel and assisted us with the check-in process at the airport Scott: yeah, by the way check the show notes for a link to the travel company, Galapagos Travel Center, that we used. We worked with Diana and It really is worth it to do business with a local company that will handle all of the paperwork and processes for you. Melissa: We can do another episode on Quito and the tours that were arranged for us by the tour company. For this leg of the trip we realized that there was one stop in the coastal city of Guayaquil. Some people were headed to the coast to enjoy their beach vacation, but we would stay on the plane and make the short hop over to the islands. That's when things got a little interesting. Neither of us have been on a flight before that experienced a bird strike. Just as we were about to lift off the ground, a bird flew into our left engine with a loud thud. The pilot immediately put the plane back down on the runway and skidded to a stop. Scott: Amazingly everyone on the plane stayed calm and within a couple of minutes the pilot notified us of what happened. They taxied us back to the gate and we began the process of trying to figure out what was next. I honestly thought that there was no way they would be getting us out of there anytime soon. But within a few hours they had another plane on the ground from Quito and we were off to the Galapagos with just a brief delay so only missing the first excursion of the trip but getting there in time for dinner. Melissa: great! Now what and where are the Galapagos you may ask. It's a chain of approximately 19 islands off the coast of Ecuador in the Pacific Ocean right along the Equator. The Galapagos have long been a fascination of people since Charles Darwin's publication of “Voyage of the Beagle” where he was greatly influenced in his theory of evolution. Today the Galapagos are a National Park where visitors can explore the Flora and Fauna of a relatively young island born of volcanic activity that continues today. The islands are known for their fearless wildlife and spectacular diving and snorkeling. SPOILER ALERT: this trip is going to fall into that category of a luxury trip. But when you think about it, you could easily spend this type of money for a week at Disney. You just have to keep everything in perspective. Scott: I was surprised to learn that almost 25,000 people live on the islands. Most in a few larger cities on the four inhabited islands, but still more than I expected. These islanders make their living on tourism and fishing. Melissa: But the real draw of the Galapagos is the wildlife. Giant tortoise that live to be about 150 years old, sea lions, marine iguanas, sea turtles, and penguins just to name a few. These animals have lived such an isolated life that they almost show an interest in the visitors. Scott: So let's start with a little insight with what a typical day looks like when cruising through the Galapagos. We were on a yacht named Camila. She is part of the fleet named Royal Galapagos and they call her the Horizon. She had 8 state rooms with 4 on each floor and then a sun deck with hot tub on the very top level. At 16 passengers, this is a very intimate experience. It had just recently been refurbished and everything was in beautiful condition. Each room had a private balcony, king size bed, and full bathroom. Melissa: You have a common dining area where all meals were served by a fabulous chef and friendly stewardesses. We did an 8 day cruise and each day started with an early breakfast and then your first excursion of the day. Sunlight is from 6 to 6 each day year round because you are on the equator. You want to be out and catch the animals during their most active times of the day (morning and afternoon). Sometimes the first excursion is a hike, some days a tender ride (small boat) they call a Pangea, or a snorkel adventure. The night before they will do a briefing and tell you what to expect and how to dress for the next day's activities. One of our favorite activities was the snorkeling. Scott: the snorkeling was off the charts. Depending on which island you visit the marine life changes. In some places we swam with sea turtles (literally surrounded by sea turtles), some places we swam with penguins, and many others had sea lions. You almost don't notice all of the amazing tropical fish because of the other sea life that would be swimming alongside you. Scott: I do want to take a minute and tell you about the camera gear that I took and what I would recommend. I am an amateur photographer and love nature photography. I have a Nikon D7000 camera and had purchased a 600mm telephoto lens for the trip. Some people had said you won't need such a lens and it will be too heavy to enjoy. I am so glad that I ignored them. Most of the people on the trip put their cameras down and just enjoyed the views after they saw some of the photos I could get vs what they were getting with their own cameras. After the trip we I set up a Google drive where we all shared the photos and videos that we took. As far as underwater videos and pictures, I had taken a GoPro HERO 4 that I've had for many years. With the clear water it made “good” photos and videos, but I decided to upgrade after the trip and am excited to take my new GoPro HERO 10 on our next trip to St John. They have made a ton of improvements in quality and resolution over what is available on the HERO4 version. I'll put some links in the show notes to some of my equipment. I also bought Melissa an Olympus TG-6 camera for use in the water and doing video. The quality on that camera is terrific and will be a great compliment to the GoPro for our in true water photography. Melissa: Now back to the trip. After each excursion you were met on deck with refreshing beverages like iced tea or fresh fruit juice and usually some sort of light snack. They would usually have some sort of lunch prepared followed by a brief downtime. You could relax on the sun deck or most people took a short nap to prepare for the afternoon's activities. Usually if we did a hike in the morning, we snorkeled in the afternoon or vice versa. Every evening started with a briefing of the next day and was followed by an amazing dinner prepared by the chef. He was great at catering for people's preferences and dietary restrictions. It's always so important to notify them of your dietary needs so that they can make sure to have things you will be able to eat. I personally am allergic to shellfish so they needed to know that when planning and preparing the meals. We also had vegan shipmates and he did his best to serve them something unique at each meal too. Scott: a couple of times fishermen brought fresh catch to the boat for the chef to prepare. A true boat to table experience. Scott: after dinner most people would linger in the dining room talking and getting to know each other, but would retire to their cabins and be in bed before 9:30. It is a lot of activity and you are tired by the end of day. Melissa: That's a good point. This is definitely an adventure cruise not a kick back and relax type of cruise. Scott: one of the things we did to get ready for this trip was to read suggested packing lists that others had made

You can also check out this episode on Spotify!On this episode, Melissa Urban talks candidly with Dr. McBride about her struggle with drugs—and how her recovery stemmed from creating healthy boundaries around food, substances, and interpersonal relationships. Her latest book, The Book of Boundaries, is about the importance of setting limits on relationships and choices, and putting ourselves back in the driver's seat of our health and wellbeing.Melissa is living proof that health is about laddering up from self-awareness to acceptance to agency of our body and mind. Join Dr. McBride every Monday for a new episode of Beyond the Prescription. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at lucymcbride.com/podcast or at https://lucymcbride.Substack.com/listen.Get full access to her free weekly Are You Okay? newsletter at https://lucymcbride.substack.com/welcomePlease be sure to like, rate, review — and enjoy — the show!The full transcript of the show is here!Dr. McBride: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to my office. I'm Dr. Lucy McBride, and this is "Beyond the Prescription," the show where I talk with my guests, like I do my patients, pulling the curtain back on what it means to be healthy, redefining health as more than the absence of disease. As a primary care doctor for over 20 years, I've realized that patients are much more than their cholesterol and their weight. Our stories live in our bodies. I'm here to help people tell their story and for you to imagine and potentially get healthier from the inside out. You can subscribe to my weekly newsletter at lucymcbride.com/newsletter and to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's get into it and go beyond the prescription.Today's guest has been on the New York Times' bestselling list six times. She is the creator of the Whole30, which is not just a diet plan. It's a way to rethink our relationship with food. Melissa Urban joins me today to talk about overcoming addiction and the lessons learned in recovery that inform how she thinks about food, nutrition, body image, and the boundaries we set in our everyday lives. Melissa's newest book is called "The Book of Boundaries," published in October 2022. In it, she describes how we can say yes to things we need and want and no to things we don't to put ourselves back on the driver's seat of our health. Boundaries, in my world and in hers, provide the groundwork for improved health and well-being. Melissa Urban, thank you so much for joining me today.Melissa: [00:01:48] Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you.Dr. McBride: Here's why I wanted to have you on the show. The way you talk about boundaries and the importance of setting limits on our relationships, our choices, is so important to how we show up in the world, how we relate to food, how we relate to alcohol and other substances, how we relate to other people, and how we feel about our own bodies that it's really at the core of what, in my opinion, health is. [00:02:17] Health, as I introduce in this podcast, is about self-awareness, and it's about acceptance, and it's about having agency. And having agency, in my opinion, includes knowing what we need and knowing what we don't need, which is driven, ultimately, by knowing our value and our meaning and our purpose. So that is a wide lens with which to open the conversation and for me to ask you, Melissa. How do you, as an expert in nutrition and eating and health, define health yourself?Melissa: Well, that's a big question to open with. You're just going right for it.Dr. McBride: We're going to go right from the top, and then we're going to get granular.Melissa: [00:02:57] I had to do a piece recently for Oprah Daily where we talked about the concept of wholeness and what does wholeness mean to me, and I think that that can relate very nicely to this idea of what health means to me. So I think, very often, we look at health through a very narrow lens, and often, when it comes to diet culture, it's through the lens of body size. I mean, they are just absolutely equated that the smaller your body, the healthier you are. If you take a step back from that, maybe you're looking at health from the perspective of, "What does my diet look like? Do I have a movement practice? What does my sleep look like?"[00:03:31] But even more than that, there are so many different factors that make up this concept of health or wholeness. I'm looking at it from a physiological perspective. So, do I have the energy to do the things that I want to do in my life to keep up with my kid, to do the recreational activities that make me happy? Do I feel satisfied from a personal development standpoint? Do I feel like I'm working on myself and I have the time and capacity to do some self-awareness or do therapy? Do I feel like I have a spiritual practice, whatever that looks like? Whether I'm connected to God or the universe or just my own highest self, am I cultivating that spiritual practice? Do I have social health? Do I feel like I have good connections with other people in my community? Do I feel like I have support? Do I feel like I'm not isolated?[00:04:16] I think there are a lot of different aspects of health. You have to look at them from a position of wholeness. You can't just look at any one aspect, because one aspect can be going very, very well, but if all of the others are falling behind or you're not paying attention to them, to me, that doesn't feel particularly healthy or feel like thriving.Dr. McBride: You couldn't have said it better, and it dovetails exactly with the way I think about health. It's not about the absence of disease. It's about the integrated sum of different components. It's about nutrition, body mechanics, self-awareness, which includes awareness of our medical vulnerabilities, which are often genetic and environmental, and it also includes, as I said earlier, that sense of agency. When I think of agency, I think of the ability to execute on goals that are yours and only yours. That's a luxury for a lot of people to have the opportunity to grow and to personally grow health-wise, grow professionally, grow relationships. But I think agency can also be on a really small level, feeling more in control of our everyday habits and even our everyday thoughts.Melissa: [00:05:21] I agree. You know, when you say agency, I immediately think about self-efficacy, this idea that, like, I feel as though I am able to accomplish the things that I want, and sometimes that involves, if I think back to my recovery and the serenity prayer, giving me the patience to accept the things I can't control and, leave them out, but recognize that, for the most part, I do have control over how I choose to respond to those situations in that I usually or almost always can have agency. And again, there's an element of unacknowledged privilege in that statement alone, but we'll just say that agency, to me, does involve this aspect of self-efficacy and recognizing the things that I can't do while making strides on the things that I can.Dr. McBride: [00:06:02] At the risk of repeating myself on this podcast, and my listeners may be, like, "Oh my God, there she goes again, talking about the serenity prayer," the serenity prayer, like, it's kind of the final common pathway of so many different conversations I have with patients, whether it's about parenting, like, letting of the fact that your teen doesn't want to talk to you right now and accepting that's normal for their age, and leaning into the opportunities, you have to talk to them when you're driving a car and it's quiet and there's no eye contact, to managing your addiction to alcohol, accepting you don't have control and leaning into the parts of your life that you do have control, finding joy and pleasure in other places and asking for help. [00:06:40] I'd love to, therefore, pivot to the conversation about your addiction and your health, because you grappled with addiction to heroin, cocaine add other substances. And so I'm aware that you, like so many of us had enormous struggle as a younger person, and I'm imagining also that informed a lot of how you are today and show up today. Can you talk a bit about that process, not that that can ever be encapsulated in a quick podcast?Melissa: [00:07:15] Yeah. I mean, you know, my drug addiction started when I was about 18, and it came as the result of some sexual abuse I experienced at 16 by somebody I was very close to. And I had just...you know, after that experience, I didn't tell anyone for a year. I didn't know how to handle it. When I did tell my family, they didn't respond super well. It was a really challenging situation that I was definitely not equipped to handle. And so I was looking for ways to essentially escape my own life. And I tried drinking, and that didn't work. And I tried restricting my eating, and that didn't work. And I tried dating guys who were terrible for me, and that didn't work. And it wasn't until I tried drugs that I was like, "Oh, this is it. Here we are. Here's the thing that can pull me so far away from myself." And I was addicted for...Dr. McBride: Can I interrupt you for a quick second?Melissa: Yeah. Dr. McBride: [00:08:00] I'm going to guess you weren't aware at the time you were dating the wrong guys and restricting calories, that you weren't aware that you were self-medicating. You were just doing it. Or were you that aware of your own pain?Melissa: I was pretty aware.Dr. McBride: You knew what you were escaping, like, "Oh, I'm going to go, like, looking on a menu of things to self-soothe. And here they are."Melissa: [00:08:17] I don't think I could go that far, but what I knew was that I did not want to be in my own life, and I was very actively looking for things that would take me away. I don't think I could have explained it any more eloquently than that at the time because I didn't have the language and I didn't have the tools. But I knew that I was hurt so much, and I didn't want to be there, and I was looking for something to take me out a bit. That was about my experience.Dr. McBride: It's interesting because, as you know, sexual abuse, sexual trauma, is so common and so commonly ignored by all parties. Like, because it's so stigmatized and so shameful to talk about in people's minds, people often don't know they're self-medicating. They don't know until they're in a real bind that their alcohol use is related to that trauma. And it's not a lack of intelligence, it's just a lack of insight. So it's impressive to me that, at an early age, you knew your feelings and you just didn't have an outlet.Melissa: [00:09:09] My sexual abuse was, like, a record scratch in my life. Up until that point, I was the good kid. I didn't get in trouble. I got good grades. I read a lot. I was quiet. Everybody liked me. But, like, I wasn't super popular. I mean, it was a very middle-of-the-road. Like, I was about as even-keeled as they came. And then, after that incident, everything went sideways, my behavior in school, I started acting out, my behavior with my family and with my parents, I started dressing differently. So, to me, it was very obvious that all of these things were related to this incident of sexual abuse, but I hadn't told anybody. So, to everyone else, it looked like it was coming way out of left field, but I knew what was happening.Dr. McBride: You didn't want help in the beginning, right? You wanted to hold that boundary so tight that you weren't going to let people in. But, like, what happened? When did you get kind of caught or busted, or when did you get enough insight to know this is a real problem and affecting your everyday health? Melissa: [00:10:00] Pretty dang early on, you know. I dove in as hard and as fast as you could. I didn't have a drug of choice, which I now know is quite unusual. I only dated drug dealers for five years. And very quickly, I realized that this thing that I was using to escape from my problem had now become a problem unto itself, and now I had a problem layered on top of problems. And I was like, "Well, I'm this far in. I don't really know what else to do." And so this is the cycle that addicts get stuck in, whether you're talking about food addiction or drug addiction or alcohol. I overconsumed, and I hated myself for it. And I had guilt, and I had shame, and it led to isolation. And that led to stress, and that led me to overconsume the very thing that I hated myself for doing. And I was stuck in that cycle for a very long time because I didn't know how to get out of it.[00:10:45] And it wasn't until I had this moment of, like, literal divine intervention with a boyfriend who was miraculously stable and wasn't a drug addict who gave me, essentially, an ultimatum and said, like, "You need to go to rehab. I can now see how problematic your behavior is and how much you're killing yourself. And, like, I really want to see you go. Would you consider going? And if you can't go, I'm going to have to leave. I can't watch you do this to yourself." And in that moment, I somehow found the strength to be, like, "Okay, I'll go."Dr. McBride: That person set a really good boundary, and they knew what they needed from a relationship, and they were trying to use their own healthy boundaries to help you. It's just an important moment in your life.Melissa: [00:11:21] He's my favorite ex-boyfriend, for a reason. I talked to him not that long ago. We texted, you know, just a couple of months ago, and I was like, "Hey, in my book, I'm still calling you my favorite ex-boyfriend." And he's like, "I will always cherish that," you know. But, yeah, he literally saved my life, and he did set boundaries with me. He set boundaries while I was using. He would say, "We can't have this conversation if you are this high. So when you come down, let's talk because we need to talk," or "It's okay that you stay out late, but you need to call me to let me know where you are. Otherwise, I worry." He tried to set boundaries for me for his own protection because I was destroying him and the relationship, and ultimately, that was what got me to rehab the first time.Dr. McBride: [00:11:59] One of the things I find so interesting and this is getting really granular, is, like, what was it about him that allowed you to trust and receive that message? In other words, I'm guessing there are other people in your life who were, like, "Melissa, get a grip. Melissa, you're sick. Melissa, you need help." What's interesting to me is, like, the messenger in that moment and who has access to someone who needs help and who needs to make important changes in their lives. And I wonder what it was about him that gave you the kind of confidence and openness to receive that message, given that I'm guessing other people had said similar things.Melissa: [00:12:33] It was the moment. I remember very clearly sitting on the couch. I had just been paid. My money had been... Because I was very functional as an addict. I still had a job. And I had just been paid, and all the money was in my bank account. And I remember him saying, like, "I need you to go to rehab, or I'm going to have to leave." And I remember calculating how much heroin I could buy with the money that was in my bank account and knowing, if I did that, that I would die, and not really caring that much, and having just a split second moment of "You could have something different." And in that split-second moment, I was like, "Okay, I'll go." And faster than I could even take it back, he was on the phone. He found me a bed. Like, I say it was divine intervention because it really feels like that.Dr. McBride: It also sounds like he wasn't judging you or shaming you.Melissa: No. He was sad for me. He knew who I was earlier in my addiction. I was always using when I was with him, but I was nowhere near as bad off as I was at the end. He really hated to see me do this not only to our relationship and to him but, like, mostly to myself.Dr. McBride: [00:13:28] In order to access other people and their willingness and ability to make changes, whether it's around food or other habits, to me, the messenger has to be free of judgment and someone they trust and then lead with empathy and curiosity. I find that if I'm counseling someone who's an addict on not just the benefits of quitting alcohol for them, because people often know the health benefits, but the other possibilities of how their life could be going and what other root causes that underlie this self-destructive behavior, coming at those conversations with blame, shame, and declarative statements does not go well.[00:14:12] In fact, I don't recall ever having a conversation with anybody, including my kids and my spouse, about changes, from doing the dishes or whatever, that landed well when you lead with shame, blame, and declarative statements. But, hey, I wonder if you could connect the dots between the way you relate to alcohol to that childhood trauma you told me about, similarly, I might say to my kid. I wonder if you thought about doing the dishes as part of the family unit. In other words, questions instead of declarative statements.Melissa: [00:14:42] There was nothing at that point that anybody could have said to me in terms of trying to shame me or blame me or disparage me that I wasn't already saying to myself 10-fold. Nobody could ever say anything to me that would be worse than what I had said to myself. And at that point, I was really struggling with, like, do I even have any worth or value left if I do enter into recovery? I'm going to have so much harm to repair. I'm going to have so much life to rebuild. It really did feel hopeless in that moment. But, you know, I had so much privilege, again, going into my recovery.[00:15:17] I had a family who had not abandoned me. I called my mom from rehab, and she was, like, shocked and upset. And she was, like, "Okay, let us know when we can come visit." I had a boyfriend who was there and ready to protect me. I had a decent job with health insurance so I could go through rehab and spend time in counseling and have that covered by insurance and a job who said they'd hold my job for me. Like, in terms of my recovery, I had everything going for me, and all I needed to do was show up and do the work, which is so much more advantage than so many other people have.Dr. McBride: [00:15:45] One hundred percent. And I'm sure you would agree that if everybody had access, unfettered access to mental health services, addiction, and rehab services and had a doctor, a nutritionist, priest, rabbi, who could talk about addiction in a matter-of-fact way, lead with curiosity and empathy, and know that the person they're talking to is already filled with shame, and then we could talk about mental health issues like we do any other physical health issue, we would be in a world of a better place.Melissa: It would be a very different environment. You know, I've been in recovery for almost 23 years now, so this was a very long time ago. We are much more free now in talking about mental health, in talking about recovery, in talking about addiction. There's a lot of destigmatizing that has gone on, at least in certain circles, right? If you're on those sides of TikTok and Instagram, people are very free, and you're even seeing it at the highest level of media, you know, when you have champion tennis players talking about taking a break or gymnasts talking about taking a break for their mental health. It is now something that we are effectively working to destigmatize. Twenty-three years ago, it was even harder. So I want to continue to see the progress that we have made, and I want to see that progress continue to increase.Dr. McBride: I totally agree. And I think, as I say to patients all the time, when we talk about mood or anxiety and they're kind of wondering why I'm asking, I remind them, we all have mental health. It's a feature, not a bug. It's something that you either address or you don't address.[00:17:15] And to you, Melissa, I'd love to ask you next, how did your mental health and recovery process inform the decision to start the Whole30? And how did the lessons you learned about yourself in recovery inform how you talk about food?Melissa: There's so much recovery language built into the Whole30 that I did not even recognize when I wrote it, but other people who were also in recovery would show up at a seminar and they'd be like, "Are you a friend of Bill W.?" And I hadn't talked about my recovery for the first year or two that I was running Whole30. And I was like, "How did you know?" And it was like, "Oh, it's, like, these six terms and phrases that you've used in these seminars." When I got out of rehab the second time, because I had a year of recovery and then I relapsed, which is very common, and then the second time I, [00:18:00] you know, entered into recovery, I realized I had to change everything about my life if I was going to maintain my recovery.[00:18:05] I needed to become a healthy person with healthy habits immediately. I had to adopt that identity, create that growth mindset, set in whole boundaries with other people and myself, and that was when I started going to the gym and eating healthier. I made a new group of like-minded girlfriends who ran instead of drank, and we would go for morning runs instead of go out for drinks at night. And I changed everything about my life. And that led me to, in 2009, this 2-person self-experiment that was to become the Whole30. And, you know, for 30 days, we eliminated foods that are commonly problematic to varying degrees according to the literature to see if they were problematic for us.[00:18:44] And while I experienced incredible physical benefits from that Whole30 energy, sleep, mood, performance in the gym, recovery, the most important thing that my first Whole30 did for me was identify the ways that I was using food like I used to use drugs, as punishment, as reward, to self-soothe, to cope, to relieve anxiety, to show myself love. I didn't have any other coping mechanisms. And it wasn't until I took those foods away for 30 days that I was like, "Oh, crap, I have to figure out how to sit with discomfort and not automatically look to food or drink to, like, numb or run away from that." And my behaviors with food were relatively healthy. I wouldn't call them incredibly dysfunctional, but I came away from that first Whole30 with so many more tools in my toolbox. It radically transformed, permanently transformed, my relationship with food. And that was such a powerful experience that I was like, "Okay, I wanna tell other people about it and share about it."Dr. McBride: It's incredible what you've done. I mean, I was just in the grocery store earlier this week, and I'm looking at a label on something, and it had a Whole30 label. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's my podcast guest."Melissa: I know her.Dr. McBride: [00:19:49] Yeah, that's cool. I mean, it's extraordinary what you've done, particularly, the nuanced way you talk about food. Like, I notice, even just when answering my question now, you don't talk about eating healthy. You talk about eating healthier, meaning, it's all relative. It's not a black or white, on/off, kind of binary system you're talking about. The way this shows up in my office as a primary care doctor, as you imagine, I have people who ask me about, "How do I lose weight?" all the time. And some of them need to because they have metabolic syndrome, diabetes, you know, heart disease, high cholesterol, the various consequences of extra weight or poor health habits. I also have patients asking me all the time, "How do I lose weight?" And they don't need to lose weight. It's more of a body image, you know, often informed by kind of the subtle cruelty of diet culture that infiltrates the minds of women more than men, but women, in particular.[00:20:42]So I guess my question to you is, given that the Whole30 does involve elimination and sort of draconian measures in the first 30 days of no sugar, no alcohol, no caffeine, no gluten, no dairy, how do you talk to audiences about the harms of restriction, balanced with the benefits of understanding exactly what you're putting in your body and the emotional, physical, and medical effects of them?Melissa: I mean, this is an incredibly nuanced discussion, because diet culture and anti-diet culture are just two ends of, like, a very long spectrum.Dr. McBride: You said it.Melissa: [00:21:22] The Whole30, as we've alluded to, is not a weight loss program. We are not a prescriptive approach in that Whole30 doesn't say, "You should eat like this forever." We also don't categorize foods as good or bad. There are no good or bad foods, and you are not good or bad when you eat food. We remove all morality from the equation. What Whole30 is is a self-experiment, because any medical doctor or registered dietitian will tell you, there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to diet. You have to figure out what works for you. And your patients say, "Yes, that makes so much sense, of course. How do I figure out what works for me?" And so Whole30 is the answer to how.[00:22:02] It's a 30-day elimination diet, and elimination diets have been around since the 1920s. Many medical doctors still consider them the gold standard for identifying food sensitivities. What the Whole30 does is it eliminates foods for 30 days that are commonly problematic to varying degrees across a broad range of people. We pull these foods out for 30 days and see how the elimination of these foods impacts your energy, your sleep, your mood, digestion, cravings, joint pain and swelling, acne, allergies, asthma, anxiety. All of these conditions can be impacted by the food that you eat. At the end of those 30 days, you'll reintroduce those food groups one at a time very carefully and systematically, like a scientific experiment, and compare your experience.[00:22:48] Based on what you learn through the Whole30, you will then have a blueprint for how foods work for you and your unique context, and you'll be able to take that to create the ideal sustainable diet for you according to your definition of health. We don't prescribe that for people. As you've mentioned, there is an element of restriction to Whole30, which is why we don't suggest the program for people who have a history of disordered eating or eating disorders. Any program with restriction can be triggering, so we are very open about that and very encouraging of those folks to work with a qualified healthcare provider to see whether or not Whole30 or some modified version of Whole30 might be right for them and make sure that they're completing the program with supervision, if at all.However, when you look at most weight loss diets that involve restriction, you're talking about restriction maybe of entire food groups but also specifically of calories. And when you restrict calories and either macronutrients, micronutrients, or both, that obviously sets the body biologically for that rebound effect that almost always happens at the end of a weight loss diet, because you are underfeeding yourself, undernourishing yourself. The Whole30 does not have that aspect. We don't count calories. We don't restrict calories. We don't restrict portions. We're eating three, four meals a day to satiety, real whole nutrient-dense food.So, from that perspective, you don't have the same physiological rebound effect to the restriction of calories on the Whole30 that you might have with other plans, which can help people feel more satiated, more satisfied, and not deprived for those 30 days if they choose to take on this self-experiment.Dr. McBride: You explained that so well. In practice, as you might imagine, I see lots of patients who undertake diets for the wrong reasons, or they're well intended, meaning, like, they actually need to lose weight because they have type 2 diabetes and they need to lose 50 to 100 pounds, but they haven't set themselves up for success because they haven't fully understood what a program can and cannot do for them. For example, there are certain diets, which will not be named, that basically give you fake food, and indeed, you will lose 10 pounds to fit into the mother-of-the-bride dress in 2 weeks. But you will inevitably feel ashamed when you can no longer keep that up, because who can eat fake food unless you're a robot, and then you gain all the weight back.I have patients all the time who are valiantly trying to lose weight without connecting the dots between the real parameters of their everyday life and setting themselves up for failure by saying, "I'm gonna chop vegetables. I'm going to prepare a protein-rich meal and quit alcohol in perpetuity." And then, if they have a full-time job, and they've got kids, and they travel for work, the wheels fall off the bus. In other words, what I see being successful in practice is when a patient's expectations are managed for what a behavioral change can and cannot do for them when it comes to food or anything else, when they have a healthy respect for behavioral patterns that are paved like concrete highways in their brains that are hard to break up, and they're willing to alter habits, and they have the time, energy, resources, space to make changes, and they're not looking just at the number on the scale. They're looking at the metrics of how do I feel, how's my sleep, how's my energy, how's my poop, how's my sex drive, how's my ability to concentrate at work. And when people can take away that obsession with the number on the scale and even their A1C diabetes test, which we need to see, but isn't the end all, be all. When they look at how they feel and how they are in their bodies, then people are setting themselves up for success in a sustainable way.So what I like about Whole30 in the way you described it is that, yes, there are gonna be people who use it for the wrong reasons, people who don't need to lose weight and are starving themselves not just for 30 days but for 60, 90, 100 days. But when a patient is given the framework within which to think about this change, and they are looking at the right metrics, it can be successful. It can be a knowledge exercise. It could be an exercise in understanding what works for their bodies.Melissa: It's a huge exercise in self-efficacy as well, because it's not easy, right? And here's the thing, we know that people come to the Whole30 and say, "I know you're not a weight loss diet, but I'm still trying to lose weight." And it's like, "Okay, I respect that. You have the right to do with your body as you choose. That's not my business." But if they stay connected to Whole30 through any medium, whether they're reading a book, they're on our social media feed, they're watching my YouTube live, they're getting our email newsletters, you are getting every single moment of every single day focused on no-scale victories, "Here's your Whole30 mindset and how it differs from your old diet mindset. Here's how you can restore that connection with your body and learn to trust the signals that your body is sending you, because your body knows better than any calculator on an internet how much you should be eating." Those are the messages that you're getting.We invite people to take a well-deserved 30-day break from hyper-fixating on that number on the scale as your only success metric and look at all of the other benefits that changing the food you put on your plate can bring into your life and what that does for literally every area of your life. The Whole30 is about food, but it's about so much more than just food. And when people do the program and they feel that sense of self-confidence and self-efficacy, the only benefit you had from the Whole30 was that you ate really good whole food for 30 days, like, you know, nutrient-dense, vitamin-dense, micronutrient-dense food for 30 days, and you kept a promise to yourself. I would call that a home run.Dr. McBride: One of the harms, in my opinion, of diet culture, mixed with hustle culture, mixed with social media, mixed with just the modern world, is that so many people have lost touch with hunger and satiety cues. In other words, patients commonly will say to me, "I've cut out alcohol. I've cut out gluten. I'm not eating as much overall, and I can't lose weight." If they actually need to lose weight, I will talk to them about what the cadence of your eating is like during the day. Because sometimes people aren't losing weight as they want to and need to because they aren't eating enough. They aren't in touch with their hunger and satiety cues. And I think when we're busy, when we're eating on the run, when we count coffee as breakfast, a KIND Bar as lunch, and then we don't eat all day because we're so busy, and the floodgates open at 7:00 at night, we lose track of what does it feel like to be hungry and what does it feel like to be sated.I don't know if this resonates with you, but I talk with patients commonly about hunger being, [00:29:30] like, a wave. You're gonna notice it rising. I'm not a surfer. But you notice it rising, and you notice it about to crest, and that's when you wanna eat. If you're tangled with your proverbial surfboard in that crashing wave, you're going to overeat, you're going to overeat the wrong stuff, and then you're going to feel bad about the next day. But if you can understand your cues, which often get lost in our everyday lives, that can do so much good.Melissa: I mean, it's not just that they're getting lost. It's that, if you have been  weight loss dieting, you have conditioned yourself to not pay attention to those cues.Dr. McBride: That's right.Melissa: Your body says you're hungry, and you're like, "No, you're not, because I don't have any points left today," "No, you're not, because you can't eat lunch until 1 p.m.," "No, you're not, because you just ate your 100-calorie snack bar, and that's the only snack that you're allowed to get." So there are a lot of experiences, especially for women, that disconnect us from our body. Maybe it's religious influences. Maybe it's diet culture. Maybe it's trauma. But we lose that connection, and then we're told over and over again that we can't trust our own bodies. Dr. McBride: [00:30:30] One hundred percent.Melissa: So one of the biggest benefits of Whole30 is, like, restoring that connection and saying, like, "Yes, you can trust the signals that your body is sending you and to start to tune back into that."Dr. McBride: Yeah. I mean, so many of my patients who are in recovery for disordered eating, we talk a lot about just trusting the neck down again. This is not, like, the CEO and then your body is the, like, chief operating officer, right? It's not supposed to take marching orders from your brain in its rigid form. It is integrated. Your body can actually give you all the information you need, and your body is your friend. If I had one message to give patients who are struggling with weight or relationship with food, it's, first, try to get back in touch with your hunger and satiety cues and give yourself permission to notice hunger and to feed yourself and to be sated. Satiety is one of the best things for calming anxiety, for focus, for concentration. It's normal. And pleasure is not something we should be avoiding. Even if it's by eating a chocolate bar, that's okay.Melissa: [00:31:29] Absolutely. You know, I talked earlier about how I used to cope all the time with food with self-soothing and relieving anxiety. And I still do that sometimes in a very conscientious way, and it still feels good. And I feel good about it, but that is no longer my only coping mechanism. And I think that's the difference. I now have a therapist, and I talk about my feelings with my husband and my friends, and I journal, and I walk, and I hike, and I meditate, and I reparent, and all of these other coping skills that now are just this, you know, nice, holistic picture of ways that I relieve anxiety and discomfort and self-soothe. Food is still one of them, but it's not the only one. And I no longer have the shame or guilt or negative self-talk associated with it. And I think that's the difference.Dr. McBride: You are really on the other side of that recovery, and I love what you just said, which is that recovery includes pattern repetition, repetition compulsion. As long as you know that that's happening and you forgive yourself for having dessert or you open a pint of ice cream because you're sad and you eat it, like, that's okay. That doesn't mean you're "relapsing" or morally flawed or gonna gain 100 pounds. It just means you're human.Melissa: Yeah. I mean, the other day, I was having a really hard mental health day, and I said to my husband, "Today is the day that I'm gonna skip the gym, I'm gonna sit on the couch, and I am just gonna eat whatever comes up for me." For me, on a normal day, those might be seen as not healthy behaviors. Skipping the gym is, like, not typically what I do, because I love going to the gym. But on this day, that felt like the thing that I could do that would nourish myself the best, and I was still conscientious and deliberate in how I chose to do it. I loved every second of sitting on my couch, watching Netflix, eating Smartfood Popcorn, and then, when it was done, I was like, "Okay, all right, that felt good. But that's not sustainable, and I don't wanna do that again tomorrow. What am I gonna do tomorrow? Because I still don't feel great, and although that was nice, I need another tool from my toolbox." And that's what I did.Dr. McBride: You're so wise. One of my favorite expressions is this, and I actually just used it with my daughter who is feeling guilty about saying no to something that, in my opinion, and I think in hers too, would actually help, she's, like, a classic perfectionist, an achiever, I mean, she's the best thing since sliced bread, but I said to her what I say to my patients, which is, "Saying no to something means saying yes to something else." Saying no to going to the gym that day because you didn't feel like it is saying yes to the permission to be a blob. And that's healthy. [00:34:00] I mean, if you say no all the time, like, "No, I can't turn in that term paper," "No, I can't participate in that sporting event," "No, I can't show up at school," that's a problem. But this comes down to what you talk about in your new book about boundaries, knowing what your needs are and having a diverse portfolio of things you can turn to to manage the inevitable stress and distress that life brings.Melissa: You know, we were, just a moment ago, talking about this idea that it's in our best interest to check in with ourselves and ask ourselves, "What do we need? How are we feeling? Are we hungry? Are we full?" and that we can trust the signals that our bodies are sending us. That applies equally to this idea of setting and holding boundaries. So often, in our lives, we look to everyone else to tell us how to show up, how to behave, what to do, when to be there, how much to give based on their expectations, and again, very rarely are we encouraged to and we're basically never taught to pause and say, "Hold on just a second. What do I need? What would I be comfortable with? How do I feel about this?" And then respawn from that place of self. And that is really at the foundation of my boundary practice. You don't know where you need to set a limit to keep yourself safe and healthy and protect your energy and mental health and time unless you are able to check in with yourself and assess what your own needs are.Dr. McBride: This is exactly why I think you and I both love our mutual friend Elise Loehnen. She's, like, a Buddha on this stuff. I love the way she talks about and you talk about knowing your north star, knowing what you need from relationships, from food, from the world to be healthy, and then giving yourself permission to ask for it, and then not apologizing for having needs. I think, in the world we live in, men too, but women, in particular, often suffer from this, like, sort of self-sacrifice as a badge of honor, as subjugating our needs, as being altruistic, when, from my own experience and from working with patients for 22 years that always blows a gasket somewhere. I mean, there's anger, there's resentment, and then we'd end up meeting our needs in other ways that aren't maybe so healthy.Melissa: [00:36:07] Yes. We have been conditioned. Women, and especially moms, have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and religious influences and diet culture to be small, to be compliant, to put everyone else's needs and feelings above our own. We are praised the most when we are not even on our own list, and then when we do ] have a need, we either hint around it because we've been told we can't ask for what we need directly, because that's rude, or if we do ask directly, we are called the B-word, or we're told that we're cold, or selfish, or we have too many rules.There is this conditioning in society around how a woman and how a mom is supposed to show up, and there's a lot of unlearning we have to before we can start advocating for ourselves and setting boundaries without feeling guilty. Because when I set a healthy limit that is designed to improve our relationship, I am not doing anything wrong, and there's nothing to feel guilty about. But I've got to unlearn all of that other stuff that tells me that I should feel guilty for simply existing and having needs.Dr. McBride: Amen. Hallelujah. As you might have guessed, I am an oldest child, I am a woman, I'm a perfectionist, I'm a pleaser, and I had to unlearn a lot of lessons that weren't even taught to me by my own family but just by society and living in the world I live in. And what's been "fun," [00:37:30] although, let's be honest, painful as well, is setting boundaries as a grownup and feeling how it's working and not working, and then seeing the net benefit of setting boundaries, whether it's with another person or with habits or behaviors, and then feeling the discomfort of setting that boundary, like, maybe disappointing someone or saying no to something everybody thought you'd go to or declining something else, and then seeing how you're actually really paying it forward for your own health and well-being and actually nurturing relationships by saying no. Because, then, that person knows what your limits are, what your boundaries are. And then, if that person's meant to be in your life, they have a better understanding of your needs.Melissa: Yeah. You know, boundaries are such a gift in relationships. They create such a sense of safety in relationships, because the other person knows that I am going to take responsibility for my own feelings and needs. So if I say to them, "Hey, I'm really going through something right now. Can we talk?" and they say, "Oh, I can't talk right now. I'm in a meeting," [00:38:30] I'm not just gonna wait around for them to be free and dump my problems onto them. I'm gonna say, "Okay, thanks for letting me know, because I respect your boundaries." I really need to talk to someone right now, so I'm gonna go call my therapist. I'm gonna call my mom. I'm gonna call my sister.If you say to me, "Hey, Melissa, do you wanna do this podcast with me?" and I say, "Sure, I'll do that with you, but I don't really have the time or capacity," and I'm saying so resentfully, and then I'm showing up for this interview, and I'm distracted, and I'm not prepared, and I'm kind of all over the place and scattered, and then you're wondering, "Well, she said yes. Why is she showing up like this? Maybe I did something wrong." No. If I say yes to you, you know I say yes authentically, and I'm going to show up as my best self and my most prepared, and I'm not going to be resentful, and I'm not gonna show up begrudgingly. And if I say no, that's a gift, because you know that I can't give you what you need right now, and you'll go find another podcast guest that's gonna be better than I can right now.So boundaries are really this clear, kind communication that improves your relationships, and when you can shift and start to see them like that, they no longer feel selfish. They no longer feel like something you should feel guilty for. Dr. McBride: [00:39:30] It's such a good message. It's so important. It's exactly what I try to teach my kids. Because when you don't set a boundary, you end up paddling in gossip. Your love language can be resentment and, "Wow, look at her. Look at how she's so important." If you don't set a boundary, you end up doing things that go against the grain of your own integrity, and that is intrinsically uncomfortable. And if you're not honoring that discomfort, it's going to show up in another way.The other thing, on the flip side of that, is there are some times you had to do things you don't wanna do, right? Like, you know, sometimes you just have to turn in the term paper even though you don't want to. You sometimes have to say yes and participate on that sports team because that's the way the world works to be able to make the team. I think the question is, knowing your place in the universe and knowing how to advocate for yourself in a healthy way, you know, that's something you have to learn the hard way, I think, in this world.Melissa: You know, what I find is that when people live in boundaryless relationships, [00:40:30] they are walking around resentful, they're walking around anxious, they are dreading interactions, they're keeping people at a distance, which hurts the relationship. If my mother-in-law keeps dropping over without calling, and I don't say anything to her because I'm trying to be nice, so I open the door and I'm like, "Hey, Carol. Yep, come on in." And then she comes in, and I'm cold, and I'm short. And I don't wanna visit because it's not a good time, but I don't wanna say so because I'm trying to be nice. And she's like, "What did I do? Like, what is wrong?"Boundaries [00:41:00] can be uncomfortable. It can be uncomfortable to say, "Hey, Carol. Would you please call before you come over and give us about an hour's notice?" That can be uncomfortable. But what you're doing now is already uncomfortable. You're walking around anxious and resentful and dreading certain interactions, and your relationship isn't going well. And eventually, if you keep holding that in, you are going to explode. And, like, that path doesn't get you anywhere. That's just a circle of doom and unhappiness. And the discomfort of setting a boundary can be momentary but lead to this huge [00:41:30] improvement and expansion of your relationship. And that's the discomfort that I'm willing to go through.Dr. McBride: I mean, mic drop. Passive aggressiveness is also a byproduct of absent boundaries or wobbly boundaries. We all know when we're being passive-aggressive, and we all know when we're the victim of passive-aggression. And to me, that's a signal that, you know what, it's time to be honest about what's happening here without blame or shame, but just name and own your part of the boundary that was broken. Say, like, "Look, I realize I showed up at a time that was not convenient for you. I hope that next time you just let me know if it's not a good time," or "Hey, I think I might have asked you a question that made you uncomfortable. My bad. So sorry." And then let them talk, right? Just being honest and authentic. And that's a tall order in the world we live in.Melissa: It is, especially, again, because women, especially, are taught to talk around everything. We're not taught to be direct. We're taught to hint and to hope that people read our minds, and then we get disappointed when they don't do the thing that they didn't know they were supposed to do. And then it just goes back and forth and back and forth, right, and then you end up in these fights where, like, your husband is like, "Hey, can I go out with the guys for a drink tonight?" And you don't want him to because you have a million things to do, but you go, "Sure." And he thinks you don't mean it, but he doesn't really wanna hear it, so he just leaves. And then he comes home three hours later, and you're in full-on rage mode. And you're like, "How could you go out? I really needed you home." And he's like, "You said it was okay for me to go." And I can't tell you how many times in my past lives those cycles had [00:43:00] repeated until, finally, I was like, "Oh, clear communication is kind." And if everyone just said what they meant, relationships would instantly get 78% better.Dr. McBride: Like, that little story resonates with me 100 times over, by the way. Anyway, it's all so healthy, and these are sort of, like, the infrastructure that we all should be thinking about putting into place in our regular lives, because it's like the skeleton we need to be healthy and happy and to be honest with ourselves. What are you working on? I mean, you've obviously reckoned with addiction. You've reckoned with boundaries. You've reckoned with a conversation around food and bodies in a public-facing way and in your own life. What's on the frontier for you now?Melissa: You know, I tend to take on self-improvement efforts or self-experiments as they come up for me. I'm not a new year's resolution person, so I don't think ahead of time, "Oh, I'm going to work on this this year." Right now, I'm heavily invested in my own mental health, so I typically have, because of my post-concussion syndrome, combined with winter, I typically get really serious seasonal depression. And this year, I don't have any, and so I'm like, "Okay, what am I doing? How can I keep it up? What are the practices I've put in place that are really helpful?" So I'm kind of really diving into that and making sure that I'm caretaking for my mental health. And then I feel like I'm in a season of work right now where I'm thinking about how can I rebalance my work and my life. I've had a period of hustle where I just put this book out, and that was a year and a half of really intense writing and touring and media. And, like, maybe it's time to rest a little bit more, and how can I incorporate some more rest into my life? So those are two things I'm focused on right now that I think are going hand-in-hand.Dr. McBride: You're just trying to be intuitive, it sounds like, and not plan for the inevitable ups and downs. And then it also sounds like you're trying to breathe in and consciously note the conditions that allow you to feel good.Melissa: I build in moments many times a day every single day to check in with myself, "How am I doing? What do I need?" I do these meditations where I talk to parallel timeline Melissa, "How are you? You're doing amazing out there. What have you done to get yourself there? Like, talk to me about it." I talk to 16-year-old Melissa. I represent myself in these meditations where we talk about what she was feeling and what she was going through and, like, where we are now and how good we're doing new. I have all of these built-in sort of touch bases that I learned in therapy and through my own practices, and I'm constantly checking in with myself to be, like, "What do you need? How do you feel? Where would you be comfortable?" I act on those.Dr. McBride: [00:45:28] I love it. And then I think, as we focus on self and self-actualization, self-discover, and health, and well-being, we then bring that improved self to our parenting, to our work, and to the world, because we can often confuse effort to know oneself and check in with ourselves as indulgent. When I look at it as the opposite, it is a way of nurturing self to then present to other people, because, to me, and I think to you, being other's focus is a way of maintaining meaning and purpose and satisfaction.Melissa: I am not a people pleaser. No one would ever describe me as a people pleaser. I am a firm believer in paying myself first. When my cup is full, when I am nourished, when I am fed, when I am well rested, when I am happy, when I am taking care of me, I have so much more to give to everybody else in my life. And that giving feels more authentic, it feels more organic, it feels more joyful. I do this for me. But by extension, that allows me to do things for others. Dr. McBride: [00:46:30] You're awesome, Melissa. And I'm not saying that just so you like me. What I think is so unique about you, Melissa, is that you're not only writing and speaking and talking to people about health, you're modeling behavior and vulnerability and authenticity and the ability to be forgiving of ourselves when we make mistakes. You're walking the walk, not just talking the talk. So I think you're helping people just by being yourself and by sharing your story, which ultimately is, I think, an important way of affecting behavioral change in others. So thank you for joining me. I'm thrilled that you came today.Melissa: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for the conversation.Dr. McBride: Thank you all for listening to "Beyond the Prescription." Please don't forget to subscribe, like, download, and share the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you catch your podcasts. I'd be thrilled if you like this episode to rate and review it. And if you have a comment or question, please drop us a line at info@lucymcbride.com.The views expressed on this show are entirely my own and do not constitute medical advice for individuals. That should be obtained from your personal physician. "Beyond the Prescription" is produced at Podville Media in Washington, D.C. Get full access to Are You Okay? at lucymcbride.substack.com/subscribe

Do entrepreneurs need a Life Coach?  What's the difference between a Life Coach and a therapist?  Learn all this and more as Season 5 of Coaching and a Cup of Tea with Mummabear begins.  Master Certified Life Coach Melissa Wiggins takes you inside her EmpoweredLife mastermind coaching program as she chats with clients Diana Gleason and Karen Moreno.  Grab and cuppa and listen in!Learn more about Diana at  www.dianagleason.com and follow her on IG: @dg.consulting.services Visit Karen's studio: barmethod.com & follow them on IG: @barmethodwinterparkEmpoweredLife Mastermind Round 2 begins soon – Learn more at melissawiggins.lifeFollow Melissa @coachmummabear_Remember to leave an honest review and subscribe to “Coaching and a Cup of Tea with Mummabear” #lifecoach #beliefs #masterlifecoach #mastermindMelissa Wiggins:Hello lassies and lads.  Welcome to a very special episode of Coaching and a Cup of Tea with Mummabear. I am so excited because I have two of my amazeballs clients.  They are entrepreneurs, they are working mums, and in this episode I actually ended up splittin it into two, a part and a part two, ‘cause there's just so much good stuff in it.  You're gonna hear about in this first part, the ripples that have came in their life from being in coaching, you're gonna hear a little bit about the difference between a therapist and a coach, you're going to hear about my self-coaching model, how they got intentional in their life and some of the biggest wins.  You're gonna love it. Stay tuned to listen to two of the most incredible lassies that I have ever met.(Music)Melissa: Hey, welcome to Coaching and a Cup of Tea with Mummabear. I'm so excited because I actually have guests today. Oh my gosh. Lucky me. I'm not just talking by myself in my office, which happens most of the time. But I have two incredible guests who are a part of Empowered Life. And today we're going to talk all about Empowered Life, what has happened in their life since they started coaching, why they started this coaching program, and why they're going to do it again. So Diana Gleason, why don't you introduce yourself, beautiful lassie?Diana Gleason: Hi, my name is Diana Gleason. I am the owner of DG Consulting Services. It is a remote bookkeeping firm for small businesses. I happen to also be a very busy mama. I have twin seven year old boys. And I'm a wife. And I do all the things.Melissa: You really do do all the things. It's amazing. I love it. And also the best keeper in the world and also my bookkeeper. So you must hire her immediately.Diana Gleason: Thank you.Melissa: And we also have beautiful, beautiful Karen. Why don't you introduce yourself, Karen?Karen Marino: Hi everyone. My name is Karen Marino and I own a fitness studio called the Bar Method. It's a workout that uses a ballet bar as a tool. You don't have to know ballet or dance at all. It's made for the common folk, like me and you. And I've owned it for almost 11 years, which I cannot believe. Find the FULL transcript here: Season 5 Episode 1: Should Entrepreneurs Have a Life Coach, Part 1

Welcome back to the Small Minded Podcast, listener!   I'm excited to welcome my friend Melissa King of Dupaco Credit Union. It won't take long into the episode for you to see how we always have fun together! We giggle as much as we talk shop, but we DO talk shop. Melissa is here to talk about her career in financial services. She emphasizes the importance of forming a partnership with your financial partner and makes finances make sense. Key Takeaways Melissa King lives with her family on an acreage near Bernard, and Cascade, Iowa. She was raised on a beef farm just a few miles away where her parents live now.  Melissa says she is the “Queen of Pivoting” along with many entrepreneurs! Yes! Volunteering and hard work was important to Melissa growing up. She continues to stay involved in the community. She found her position at Dupaco as a temporary employee at age 18 and has been with them since. She originally didn't think she would do college but now holds an MBA! Community is important to Melissa and one of the best takeaways from business school was the connections and friendships she made. Melissa loves meeting with small business owners in every stage of the game and following their progress. Your relationship with your financials is an important one! Check in at least as often as you connect with your accountant or attorney. Melissa says your financial should get to know you and discuss custom solutions. Look to America's Small Business Development Centers for professional business advice by state. Melissa has become a small business owner herself! She and her family raise miniature golden doodles. Connect with Melissa You can reach Melissa by phone at five-six-three-581-9081 or email at mking@dupaco.com Follow for More Follow Molly Knuth Media on Instagram and Facebook Follow Small-Minded on Instagram and Facebook

It's been a journey, but here we are!! We are re-introducing ourselves in this quick 10-minute episode and chatting about season 4! We are so excited to keep this journey going!! If you're new or have been with us all along, thank you, we are SO GLAD to have you!! We'll see you for a new, full-length interview episode in two weeks. So much love!!xox Cody & Melissa-You can follow us @_wearethestigma on Instagram and Facebook-You can find Cody on Tiktok @codywkreutz and Instagram @codykreutz-Find Melissa on Instagram @_thepetitecactus and TikTok @melskreutz**The best way to support We Are The Stigma is by leaving us a five-star review on iTunes! Take a screenshot of your written review, and we'll send you any book our past guests wrote! It's a way we can support them and you!***As always, share with others, and reach out if you'd like to share your story https://wearethestigma.com/be-a-guest-on-our-show/

Back to Melissa… You need quiet time…; 1 in 3 Americans are not sleeping. Kevin from NYC asks why are youth committing mass shootings. — Back to Kevin… Dwayne from Charlotte, NC says he has been praying but still gets angry. He wants to know what's next.

In this episode of the Success Fundamentals, Kris and Brian talk to author, life coach, and educator Melissa Oatman. Melissa is also the host of the Awakening your Inner Awesomeness podcast. Melissa talks about self-development and working to become the best version of yourself. We all grow up with certain values that unknowingly have been setting us back from achieving success, but we can always unlearn them. When we are aware of the things that we must change, we unlock our inner awesomeness, and get that one step closer to achieving what we set out to do. HIGHLIGHTSAwakening your inner awesomeness, definedSit down and ask yourself if you're really happyStart putting yourself and your happiness firstWhat if we all just pursued our interests? The importance of spirituality in achieving successIs it possible to be in a state of perpetual positive emotion?Negative self-talk can manifest into physical illness You can't control life, only your reaction toward itQUOTESMelissa: "Awakening the awesomeness is doing the self-work and doing the self-development on yourself each and everyday to bring out the best version of yourself."Melissa: "You have to learn to trust your own instincts and come to a place where your happiness is valued over everyone else's, that what you want is more important. And that is difficult especially for people who are people pleasers." Melissa: "What we have to do sometimes is unlearn the conditions that have been placed on us like when they say, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, that money doesn't grow on trees, or you're not capable of making a lot of money. You have to let go of those beliefs and they're sometimes very deeply rooted." Melissa: "You have to change that inner record that's always playing and for many of us, it's what people have said to us our whole lives or what we perceive that they think about us. So we have to change that so we can start to feel better about ourselves."Learn more about Melissa in the links below: Website: https://www.melissaoatman.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-oatman-0a51a432/Book: https://www.amazon.com/Beautifully-Broken-Spiritual-Thriving-Surviving/dp/198957906XPodcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/awaken-your-inner-awesomeness-with-melissa-oatman/id1409822126Follow Success Fundamentals on the following links below: Website: https://www.successfundamentals.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4XCvuwxnFi5_7C6Ncm12xQLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/success-fundamentals™Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/successfundamentalspodcastInstagram: https://instagram.com/successfundamentalspodcast

This episode of the Live Better Seller Better Podcast features Melissa Gaglione, Account Executive at LivePerson. Routines can be viewed as constraints, but in reality what they provide you is a structure so that you can enjoy the rest of your day exactly how you want it.Melissa shares her experiences as a grade 1 teacher and how learning to adapt during times you can't control your time has been crucial to her success. Though work routines are great, salespeople must be able to prioritize and execute tasks during critical times in the day.For her, the times before and after work are moments she can control and she shares what routines help her be happy and, by extension, improve herself when she shows up as one of her organization's top salespeople.HIGHLIGHTSRoutines provide the structure to be flexible with your timeSales lessons from a former grade 1 teacherCreate routines during times you can control and adapt when you can'tBe kind to yourself when things don't go according to planQUOTESMelissa: "Having those routines literally allows you just to have more freedom. It's not to constrain you. It's to allow you to have more fun and do more things and be around the people that you want to be around."Melissa: "You have to understand what does this person know? What's their prior knowledge? And how can I add to it and ask the right questions? So any discovery call, I'm analyzing that person. I'm trying to understand hey, how much do you know?"Melissa: "That's where being kind to yourself is, is recognizing okay, am I being too hard on myself, or am I making this too hard for me, or am I just being lazy? And it's okay if you are, but make a change. If you're being too hard on yourself, you have to make a change somewhere."You can find out more about Melissa in the link below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagaglione/

Check out our FREE workshop to see if flipping high profit items would be a good fit for you: https://courses.fleamarketflipper.com/flipper-university-workshop-webinarTRANSCRIPT:Rob: All right today, Jack, we're so happy that you're jumping on here to give us some great information about your reselling business. So Jack, welcome to the podcast. Please give us a little bit of information on your background, and kind of where you're at in your reselling business right now. Jack: I can do that, Rob. Welcome, everybody. Let's go back a ways. Very early in, in my life and career, I was a dairy farmer. Okay, [00:01:00] that's getting up and milking cows, feeding animals, doing hay. That, that whole bit, I did it through high school, did it through college, did it after college for full-time for a while. It was family. It was my single uncle.And that really is the compass that set my direction in life. I knew, at college, if this man could get up at five o'clock and milk cows, I could get up and study and be a better person. So, it's made my compass throughout life. College was environmental studies. After college working on the farm, I was also a regional writer and conservation periodical.And over the years, it morphed into me starting up working in the horticulture industry, getting away from animal husbandry into horticulture. And that's what I've done for the last 30 years. I started a national employment newspaper for horticulture employment back in the [00:02:00] mid nineties called Farrell's Jobs In Horticulture. I sold it in the late, late nineties and in 2000, my largest advertiser asked me to come to Florida. They were executive recruiters for the horticulture industry. So in 2000 we left Pennsylvania moved to Florida, and work with a Sanford company called Floor Search, retiring the very last day of 2018.And I'm married to my life partner and partner in the flipping business, Joan, and I cannot say enough about how genuine a person Joan is. We have two daughters, Jacqueline and Gina and two son-in-laws, Joe and Mark, and now we have three granddaughters. Abigail is three, Ellis two, and little Weston's 10 months, but he'll turn one in January. So we'll have a 3, 2, 1, and maybe it's done. We don't know yet. [00:03:00] So that's a little bit about me and a little about, about the family. Rob: I love it. I love it. And the cool thing about this is your story is totally different than our story I've been flipping for over 20 years. Now, you don't have any experience in the flipping industry. So how did you go to that next level? What caused you, a little over a year ago, what caused you to, to jump into the flipping industry? Jack: Well, it's partially right and let me add some, some depth to it. Flipper University, yes. We're alumni 12 months, now. How do you like that term? Alumni?But I would look back over the years. We've flipped various items. I'm the only person I can think of that I've had two open houses and I've sold two homes by having open houses. And I just have the feeling if you can make things look good and of course need to be good that somebody will buy it.So we did that, Joan [00:04:00] and I rehabbed three mobile homes, two single-wides and a double-wide. So we sold those. We also have flipped five RVs. We had three class B units, the van type RVs and two travel trailers that we've used and sold. And I guess lastly, I've had six maxi motor scooters, Suzukis, Hondas, and have sold those. So we have flipped things.But never with the continuity, the uniformity that you all have put together in the Flipper University. And I heard about it and I called Joan, and I was traveling said, Hey, you know, we need to listen to, to this and, and track it out. And we did, and firm believers that education is cheap compared to ignorance. So we got the education. Rob: Awesome. So you do have some history [00:05:00] and it's actually larger stuff, houses, RVs, motorcycles, and stuff like that. That is you have some experience on the flipping realm. Melissa: And I know Joan's very thrifty too. Like she likes to save money so that the two of you together are good, are an awesome pair.Rob: Exactly. That's really, that's really, really cool. So. Cool. Good, good. So now we have a little bit of background. Melissa: And so right now, are you flipping part-time or full-time? Jack: Right now we are flipping full-time. However, once the school year started, we are taking care of our infant grandson. So we're trying to figure that one out, and we've come up with a strategy. I would work mornings, Joan would take over and work the afternoon. So she would have Weston during the morning, I have him in the afternoon, and for the most part it works, but it sure slows down momentum. Now I'm not saying it begrudgingly, family comes first and we're glad to have the little guy in our life. He also brings some possible [00:06:00] germs with him because Joan has been ill, I've been ill, Joan's ill again. So it's just one of those things where it could be related. It could not be, but we're working through it. Rob: That's it. That's awesome. And I want to definitely point out one key point you said: family comes first. Melissa and I are strong believers everything that we do in this business is so we can spend time with each other and with our kids. So that is one of the main reasons why we flip, so kudos to you. Yeah. You guys, you have our schedule, you could take it the wrong way and say, oh man, I don't want to take care of my grandkids, but I applaud you. That is amazing that that is your outlook on it. And I agree a hundred percent. That's why we do what we do as well. Melissa: It gives you the flexibility to be able to make those choices, which is pretty cool. Rob: Absolutely. Absolutely. Jack: Yeah, I said to Joan last evening if I had some type of job or part-time job, I don't have the flexibility that this provides. And here we are, we can take care of, we can help our daughter and son-in-law, taking care of the little one. Supposedly beginning of [00:07:00] the January, he'll be old enough to go into a daycare where his sister now attends. So that should be, should be happening early January. Rob: Awesome. Awesome. Melissa: Give it a little more time.Rob: Cool. Melissa: So what right now, where are you selling? What platform is your platform of choice to sell on? Jack: Yeah, I think, eBay is definitely our, our platform of choice. Normally we can achieve higher profit margins with the items that we sell and, you know, either palletize package, the items for boxing, FedEx, or YRC shipments. The item's out the door. It's pretty much handled on our timeline with our ability to be flexible. We do sell things locally. Facebook Marketplace, OfferUp, Craigslist, and you're coordinating schedules. You're, you know, you have scammers, you have low ballers, you have no shows. You, you have a lot [00:08:00] of things. You meet a lot of nice people, I'm not bashing it, but you have to be a little more diligent and, less flexible. And I know that, Joan recently got us set up on Amazon, so we'll be on Amazon. We were approached by a gentleman that we know that manufacturers automotive detailing products, and he talked to us about selling those on eBay and Amazon, so we're in the process. Not sure if that'll come together, but that's a possibility. But eBay is our go-to thing with items that justify being on eBay. Rob: I love it. I love it. And you're not limiting it to eBay, so you're actually looking other avenues. And if they come through, they do, if they don't, they don't. But that's, that's us as well.We love eBay. We use eBay for probably 90% of our sales, so, but don't ever close your mind. There could be something out there and when you close your mind, that's when you miss it. So you have to be able to look at those other avenues, look at other, other opportunities that that approach [00:09:00] you, or that come into your, your path that you're able to take advantage of. So that's awesome for sure. Melissa: And so what are some of your favorite items that you guys sell? Like what are, what are some of the things that you like to sell? Jack: I would say that our categories right now, Melissa, would be automotive, exercise equipment, restaurant equipment, recreation. And I'm wanting to know if I could possibly interest any of the listeners into a rotisserie.Now the rotisserie I'm talking about, it's not for pigs, it's not for chickens. This thing is a massive thing that you put up like a pickup truck on or a car on, and you can rotate it around to work on it. We had a, a neighbor in our warehouse development that moved recently, and he was not going to take a lot of items that didn't apply to his business. His business model had morphed about 10 years ago and he had a lot of stuff that he inventoried. So [00:10:00] I don't how many pallets of stuff he brought to us, maybe 8, maybe 10. It's a lot. So we're working through that now, but one of them is this giant quote, unquote rotisserie is what you call it.Rob, you may have seen, seen a rotisserie before, but, it's a big old thing that hopefully we'll make some decent money on it. And likewise, we've sold some other things that he's brought already, but we're working through that, you know, have a food warmer, it's really nice. You've been to a buffet meal where the you're sitting there and these servers bringing a full plated meal and take the lid off and put it in front of you, well I have one of those that we cleaned up and looking good.It's listed on eBay. I even have a two-wheel golf cart. Don't know if you've ever heard of a two-wheel golf cart, but there is such an animal. It's essentially a scooter that the manufacturer puts up place where you put your golf bag on the back and all the other accoutrements you'd [00:11:00] find in a four-wheel golf cart.So those are some of the things we chose the scale up early on to bigger items. Find that there's more profitability trying to find if there's demand on eBay. And so, you know, I've sold a Bowflex to a gentlemen in Colorado and there's plenty of Bowflexes out there, but man, that time it took to tear it apart and wrap it and palletize it and then ship it.I haven't tackled another one of those again. So some things we make mistakes on too. I have a Baskin and Robbins ice cream cooler, big, old thing that you would walk up to any Baskin and Robbins counter and be looking through the glass at the various ice creams inside. I was giving it a good cleaning. I think I messed up the little thermostat on it. It's a little controller, tell it when to turn on and when not to. No big deal, $75 plug a new one in. Well found out [00:12:00] that they don't log, they no longer, make this particular controller, so I've been struggling to find used or even a new one. So things that, that happened, some things go sideways, but most things don't, and that's the, the point I want to make, not everything's going to be peaches and cream.Rob: 100%. We would agree with that. Yeah, but you're learning from it. So you're learning you're from your mistakes and you're learning from the process that you're going through, which is awesome. You always want to be learning in this business. And you have to have the outlook on it. Okay, what can I learn from this situation rather than getting bitter at it and being like, okay, that's it. I had a bad experience. I'm I'm not flipping anymore. Right. You know, I'm not reselling anymore because of this bad experience. So yeah. That's an awesome mindset. I applaud you on that as well. Because that is how you become successful. You have to be able to take the good with the bad and realize, okay, what can I learn from this situation, which is totally awesome. For sure. Melissa: So what would you say was one of your most memorable flips or biggest flips that you've had? Jack: Well, it's somewhat [00:13:00] of a circuitous story, but I'll try to hit it straight on. We purchased seats out of a 15-passenger Ford transit van. This person contacted us because we'd purchased Mercedes seats from a conversion van company.So anyway, there was a connection there. So we bought his seats and he came, I took them out. We bought the hardware, everything associated with it. He's a lawyer he's going to travel the U.S. converting it into a mobile office, and I hope he's out there having a big old time. He should be. And so we advertise the seats on eBay, advertise locally, get local call when we were traveling the, the SunRail for, to celebrate Joan's birthday in Winter Park, which to everybody listening to it, it's a local commuter train in the Orlando area.And anyway, this lady said her husband wanted to buy a particular seat, so [00:14:00] son came to pick up the seat a few days later. Showed the son, you know, we have more seats. We had hardware and the son comes back, well, he said he may, his father may be interested in the hardware. So I follow up a week later and they got back to me and said, yeah, we are interested in the hardware to hold the seats to the floor of our van.So they picked that up. And a couple of weeks later, the son calls and says, hey, we have some things we'd like for you to look at. Could you come over in a, not too far away, 15 miles away. So we drive over, didn't ask what they were and we walk into one room and there's this tall, it's called a turbo air. It's something you would see, like in a row, in a airport where you walk by, reach in and grab a sandwich or fruit. There's no doors to open. It's an open air thing, gleaming brand new, never used. It turns out they'd been in the restaurant business for a long time, [00:15:00] eateries all over the United States, food service. And for whatever reason, this one never got implemented.Of course, they wanted a decent dollar for it and they sell for $5,500 well, they sell for about $7,000 new, can resell a new one for $5,500. We ended up buying it for $3,500, a little more than we surely would like to but we, they had a lot of other things. We offered pennies on the dollar, and got those. The keystone thing was getting this cooler off their hands, which they wanted, but we got the other stuff cheap and we've been selling it.Next phase. We have it on eBay. The cooler sells in a couple of weeks to a gentleman in Brooklyn. I think he's English was his second language. Got it shipped. It was a challenge to lift this heavy thing around and call it, ties it, but that all got accomplished. It got shipped up there by YRC freight. Fine. Let the man know that it's sitting there on the terminal and [00:16:00] in Brooklyn and he's and I said he can go get it now. He's coming back to me in his broken English corresponding. How do you mean? I said well you need to pick it up and he didn't get upset. I gave him options and how I could get it, rent a truck, know somebody who has a truck anyway, he picked it up. He got it unwrapped at his place uncrated. And then he's coming back to us saying, I'd like to buy another one, just like it. And of course, in the flipping business you usually don't have another one just like, but the point is, if you're doing right by people and getting them the right things at a good price, you know, you'll have people, very happy with you and that's what builds your business.Melissa: Yeah, Rob: So many great nuggets in that story, for sure. So, I mean, you could dissect that yet. You created a contact by selling something to somebody, which is amazing. We always Melissa: Now you know somebody who wants one. Rob: That's right. We [00:17:00] always love making contacts. And at the same time, once you sold this one, you made another contact of a gentleman who wants more when you come across them if you can come across them. Yes, so many great nuggets in that story. Absolutely love it, Jack. That is the key to this business is, is making your customers happy, and creating those contacts and creating that more of a, what would you call it like, relationships with, you know, just other people that you can, and you have that relationship with that you can talk to, and sell other stuff too, or buy other stuff from, so, yeah, that's awesome. That is a huge point in this business for sure. Melissa: That's helped our business a lot. It's fun to create those contexts and it doesn't come naturally at first, but then if you're just nice to people, you, it's amazing what a friend of a friend wants to give you. It's kinda crazy. So I know, you jumped in, you guys jumped in feet first, like ready, like hit the ground running didn't even like stop to breathe, like you were going for it. So the first three months you guys hit about $6,800, I think it was in sales your first three months. Since then, what has been your [00:18:00] biggest month? Do you know? On eBay? Jack: I know about two months ago before we started taking care of Weston and I looked and Joan might know, but we were on a 90-day average at $36 or $39 thousand. Rob: Wow.Melissa: That's awesome. Jack: I know it's come down. I have it. That's I think it was 36, maybe it was 39, but that was back two months ago.Melissa: You posted it in the group. I can't remember what it was either, but I knew it was up there. So that's a that's awesome. 90 days time. Rob: That's amazing, not 3,900, not $3,500, $35,000, $39,000. Jack is moving some inventory. Melissa: In three months time. Rob: In three months time, which is awesome. That is amazing. And again, he's only been doing this for the last 12 months, and he's really learning a lot as you guys can hear from his stories. He's learning a lot, he's taking all this in and it's amazing to see his progression. So that is awesome. Melissa: So what would [00:19:00] be three things that you've maybe would attribute to the success of your business?Jack: I think one thing is division of duties and, you know, Joan does administration side of the business, the listings, and bill like, you know, paying bills, sourcing product. She's good at that. I focus on operations so I refurbish and clean, I photograph, I do the boxing and the shipping. So trying to stay off, trying to stay out of each other's hair as much as possible. Small businesses, it's impossible, but as much as possible. And I think the work ethic, you know, bring that full circle. Farming, those 5:00 AM milkings, it's just, as I said, it's been a compass, my approach to work and you've met Joan, but most of you haven't. Joan is a dedicated person to anything and everyone, family, friends, community, and this business. So she's this extremely [00:20:00] dedicated, course she's dedicated to me, which I'm not sure sometimes she gets the best end of the stick, but she's just a great, great person to be in with. And we have fun. And I guess the third thing is exceeding the expectations of customers.I sold something just short story sold an LG Sidekick. If anybody knows what that is, because five months ago, I didn't, but it's a, it's a little pedestal washing machine that fits under a standard size LG washing machine. So if you have a small load of whites or something, you can be pushing up through while your big machine on top is running it.So it takes the place of a pedestal that a lot of machines are on. One evening a lady inquired from Mississippi about it, and we were on it. And within an hour it was sold to her, and by the time I got done out at the warehouse at say nine o'clock that night, she had the [00:21:00] pro number so she could track it through YRC.And she's saying all these accolades, "Nobody's ever done this with me on eBay. And this is so wonderful. You guys are such great." And at one point I said, "You're gonna have to stop saying this Trish, because you're gonna make me blush," all laughing, but you know, that's our approach. Try to exceed expectations, try to have things clean and look good. It goes back to the flipping those houses years ago. You know, just make it real. Melissa: Yeah. Rob: I love it. Those are a great three tips. Jack, thank you so much for those business duties and in Jack's case, he is working with his wife. They both are retired and they're doing this full time. So they're able to delegate who does what and try to stay out of each other's hair, which is awesome, and then ethics. Work ethics is huge. Guys, this is not a get rich quick. All you resellers know this, you know that it takes work at this. You just, hopefully you'll love it. I love sourcing items. That's what I'm really good at.[00:22:00] So hopefully you guys, you guys understand that. And then the third one is definitely, and that's a big one that Melissa and I always say is under promise and over deliver. You want your customers to be happy. If they're happy, they come back to you. They give you other contacts, they give you other stuff. So that is the biggest thing is you want to make sure that item is meeting or exceeding the expectations that your buyers have. So, Jack amazing, amazing tips. We love them. Thank you so much for jumping on here. Do we have any more questions? Melissa: Just some fun questions. Like, so just to get to know Jack a little bit. So what is one of your hobbies besides flipping or is flipping your hobby really, at that pace? Jack: I created an edible landscape at the house we lived in, so I had this bonanza of oranges, grapefruit kumquats, limes, pecans, mulberries, figs, blueberries. And then we sold our home and moved into a condominium. So I pivoted and, you know, [00:23:00] hiking, kayaking, bicycling, things that I had done, but I do more of now.And Joan loves fishing. She's just passionate, always has been. I don't have her passion though. I fished a lot. I don't have her passion for that. And the things I mentioned, she enjoys doing this well. So we're, you know, really a well-matched team in the harness. We really enjoy doing a lot of the same things.Rob: That's awesome. Melissa: We talk about that a lot, because it is important to do stuff, even if maybe your fishing's not your thing, but you enjoy doing it with her. So like, that's the same thing that we like to do stuff with each other. Like, I don't really love the water, surprise, because we're on the water almost every week on the lake, but I like to go out there with you. And the same thing with running, he hated running, but he likes to do it with me. So now it's, we've learned. Now we like it. Now we really like each other, what we do.Rob: It helps to grow each other together. So, yeah. That's awesome that you in general like that, so, [00:24:00] yeah, that's, that's really cool.Jack: We have a tandem kayak and it's pedal driven and it only has one pedal drive. So I sit in the back and I pedal this sucker and she's up front and she's casting and doing, doing her thing. And it's funny, we were in the think was the Dead River over near Leesburg, and these boats were going by and, you know, pontoon boats full of people and they were laughing, making fun of her, "She's not doing anything up there and he's doing all the work back there." So, but you know, it, it works. I I'm getting exercise and she's having fun. Rob: That's awesome. I love it. Melissa: Last fun question. So your favorite vacation destination, I think you guys like to travel, don't you and then this whole craziness hit, but you, before that you liked to travel, I think. Jack: Yeah, we, we love traveling, I would say if it's a destination, Key West is pretty cool. Pretty cool place to go [00:25:00] to. I guess our point of view is there's so many places to explore that we're not one of those couples that would go to the same place year after year standing reservation. We're going to be going somewhere different. You know, we had a chance to, to go to Paris with our daughter and son-in-law, and they had a two-month-old at the time. That was a couple of years ago, right before COVID hit. So we're going to West Virginia this weekend. Friends are celebrating an anniversary up there. And so we're going to hop on a plane and do that thing, but we're talking about that yesterday. Once we get around the corner of this year, do a little bit more traveling. Melissa: And always a stop in at the thrift stores and stuff nearby right? Jack: There's always something to look forward to. Rob: We totally agree. We love traveling and sourcing while we're on the road. It's fun. It's a, it's a good time. And we're like you as well. We, we don't like any specific destination, but it's fun to see new things. We have so many [00:26:00] things to be able to see. So we're always trying to find new things and do that. Awesome. Well, Jack. Jack: I was living vicariously through you two last summer, when you were on your marathon trip, it was great. Rob: It was a blast. Yeah. Thank you, so well, cool. Well Jack, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your value bombs that you've been dropping through this interview. We're so thankful for you, thankful to watch your growth and help you along the way as well. So, like I said, we, we, we greatly appreciate your time that you've taken to come on this interview with us and, and give some great, great value bombs for, for the audience. Melissa: Yes, thank you so much. Jack: Hats off to you and Melissa, keep up the great work. We're listening. Rob: Thanks, Jack. Have a great day, guys. See ya! 

How to turn your passion for visiting yard sales and thrift stores into a profitable side hustle. - FREE WORKSHOPWhat's up, guys? Today, we have the honor of introducing and interviewing Adam Smith, who has just recently within the last year jumped into flipping, but he's made some, sweet flips and he's made some awesome progress towards this reselling a side hustle, or profession, whatever you want to call it. So we're very honored, very glad to have Adam to the show. Adam, welcome. Thank you so much for jumping on here.Adam: Oh, thank you, Rob and Melissa. It's great to be [00:01:00] here.Melissa: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little background of you.Adam: Well, sure. I'm 41 years old. I have two young children, and two and four months, and I work a boring corporate job.And about a year ago, I, got into flipping, with the help of my mother who's been selling on eBay for years and years as a hobby and having fun. And she came and visited, for the holidays and we've said, well, let's sell some of this stuff around the house. And that's how I kinda got going, just selling stuff around the house.And, I had so much fun with it that I said, well, I'm going to start going to the thrift store. And I started selling stuff from the thrift store. And then, you know, I like to research stuff and I started a, what the heck is this reselling stuff? What the heck is flipping? And then that's how I found you guys and your videos on YouTube.And then that's really where it [00:02:00] launched, there. You know, a couple months after I started with my mom, I had found you guys. And I said, wow, we can really, I can really make some extra money at this. And this is really super fun. So that's probably more than you wanted in introducing myself, but...Rob: No, that was great. That's exactly what we want. We want your backstory, what you're doing, kind of how you found this career, this side hustle, whatever it is for everybody. So no, that's great. And you said one thing that throws a wrench into anybody's flipping business. You have young kids, you have a full-time job and you're still out there and you're doing amazing at flipping.So, yeah, that's awesome. Very, very exciting that, that is part of your journey and that's where you're at right now. So, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.Melissa: The kids take a lot of time. We know, very well, how much they take from your time, and we love it obviously, but it there's a lot less time left in the day to do anything else. So.Rob: The other thing I liked about what you said is you started from the stuff that's in your house. And a lot of people they find out about flipping and they think they have to go out and invest all this money, and then they have to have [00:03:00] all this inventory that they're not sure if it's going to sell, but you started with stuff that you had. That's kind of the way we teach people as well, stuff that you have sitting around the house, that you're not using anymore and start selling it, learn how to do the flipping and then you can actually expand and get bigger and go buy stuff that, you know, that's going to sell. So, yeah. That's awesome that that's how you started, for sure.Adam: Yeah, like I...Melissa: Go ahead. Sorry.Adam: Yeah, just having, you know, when I started, we had one, our first child, who was about two. And so I had quite a bit of extra time still, compared to what I have now. Now we have a four-month-old baby around the house, so it's really put a crunch on the amount of time, free time that I have to go out, you know, yard saling or thrifting, or just, you know, searching on Facebook marketplace for items. But I'll say it, it's still, I think the max I put in on a weekly basis would be 10, you know, 15 hours at the most. And I'm able to squeeze that in, you [00:04:00] know, after everyone's in bed, I'll, you know, do some listing of items or packaging up of items and stuff at night.So I, and I still get to bed at a reasonable hour. And then of course the kids have me up at 5:00 or 6:00 AM or something. So yeah, I think my sales in the first month, half of the year, we're really, really strong before baby came in June. And then it really tanked from June, July, and August. I really didn't have a lot of time cause baby was so young.But now that we've kind of settled into a routine and I can have that time at night and a little bit in the early morning to do flipping stuff, I'm right back to where I was in the beginning part of the year.Melissa: Awesome. So when you, you're saying around 10 to 15 hours, when you're on your kind of normal schedule, so what is that usually average a month when you're on the normal schedule?Rob: Income wise, that, that brings up a great point because a lot of people want to know if I can throw an extra 5 hours, 10 hours at this business, what can I expect? And you're like you said, you're [00:05:00] a new flipper within the last 12 months you've been actually doing this. So, kind of give us some numbers, you know, maybe averages, that you've been able to do on the selling side of it.Adam: Yeah, my average sales per month are around I think between $5,000 and $7,000 a month, I would say.Rob: That's awesome. I love it.Adam: Some months are better than like I said, June, July, August was a little, a little slow just because I didn't have a lot of time to list and, and stay on top of it. But I have, I have no doubt that if I, if I went full time at this, I could completely replace my corporate income and more. So like, this is my first year.I think I will end up around $70,000 to $80,000 in total sales and that's with just starting slow too. Cause I didn't find you guys until January or February of this year and that's when things really took off.Rob: Dude, you're you're, you're blowing my mind and I have so many questions [00:06:00] right now about just this $5,000 to $7,000 a month. The next question is kind of what's your niche? What, how are you getting to that's a substantial amount of money for a side hustle. What exactly are you doing? Like, what is your niche that you're doing to get to move the mountain on that? To make that money?Adam: I would say the two categories I do the most are appliances, you know, cooking cooktops, ranges, and then Sleep Number beds is probably the, the second category where I do really, really well. And what I've kind of moved into now, especially after, baby came in June is it's been harder to move larger items like ranges and stuff like that. So I started parting out cooktops and ranges and stuff that, cause it's so much easier to ship, you know, a small switch or a burner, and the money, the return is really good on those. Cause you can [00:07:00] often pick up a little bit older appliances that all the components still work, but you know, they're not the newest model or whatever, all the switches and valves and stuff like that still work on them.And I just part them out in the garage at night and then I list all those items and I sell them for a really good profit, you know, so I can take a range that I pick up for free or for less than a hundred dollars and, you know, flip it and make $500 to a thousand dollars on the parts off that range. So that's where I'm really kind of niching down into right now is, is, is the parting out appliances.Melissa: That's funny. We actually just went to dinner with one of our other course members the other day, and she brought up a point. She had a cooktop and it was or a range, I don't know if it... was it a range? She got it and it was missing one knob. She's like, it's fine. I'll go. I'll just purchase the knob. And she went to go purchase the knob and it was $300.Rob: $300.Melissa: And I think that's what she paid for the whole thing. And she's like, all right, well now, but then she ended up selling the [00:08:00] other three knobs for $300 or $400 each. So she was like, she just parted it out. It's like that. There you go.Rob: And I want to call attention to this. This is a great point. Some of you guys that do know Melissa and I, we do large items and it sounds like Adam does some larger items too, but he's also found a niche where he can part out items, sell smaller items and still make great, great money at it. So, yeah, that that's really, really an awesome point.Melissa: Sky's the limit.Rob: It is. You do not have to do super large items. And that's the big thing Melissa and I found with what we do, it's less time than selling tons and tons of small items. But if you're getting into these smaller items that have a higher profits on them, because...Melissa: Your knob is worth $300.Rob: Exactly. Adam's probably talking about appliances there, you know, maybe anywhere from 5 to 10 years old and people have one thing goes bad on it and Adam's got the replacement for it for a good price underneath what it would be for a retail price, if they had to go and order it from Whirlpool.Melissa: And half the time you can't find them anymore because they're older.Rob: Exactly. Exactly. So that's a great, great piece of advice, Adam. I love that, that you're actually thinking [00:09:00] outside the box and you're making some great money on smaller items, but higher profit, smaller items. So that's awesome. Great tip.Adam: Yeah, it's kind of enabled me to, to also limit the amount of time you spend listing and cleaning up some of those older items. And so now with the appliances, if I'm going to sell it and flip the larger cooktop or a full range, I pretty much will, I want to make sure they're in good condition when I buy them. So I still go for that, whatever profit I want to make, you know, 10 times profit is kind of what I look for, based on your advice.But if it's going to take me five or six hours to clean up that older thing, it's, it's just, doesn't become worth it. So I'll just part it out, it's easier to just tear it down. I can do that in an hour. I can tear down range an hour and, you know, to spend less time on it. I don't know if that makes sense.Rob: It does. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Categorize it and take it that tear down. There's only so many pieces to these, these appliances that you're working with. You, you know, you have wires, you have boards, you [00:10:00] have knobs. So there's only so many pieces that are really worth the money to flip. And it's another point to it that you didn't even say you, once you do it, you tear it down.You can get rid of the big components. You're not even storing that stuff. You take it to the scrap yard. You throw it away, whatever you do. So it is a lot easier in some aspects to do that. So, yeah. That's awesome. I love how your brain's thinking and working this whole, this whole process out. Cause you're doing yeah, you're doing amazing. So I'm super excited.Melissa: That's funny.Adam: That's another fortunate thing is my local community has a waste diversion center where I can recycle all the other components for free. I just dropped them off, you know, all the big metal components. So that's, that's worked out really well.Rob: I love it. I love it. That is that's amazing.Melissa: So if you have to reflect all the way back for this last year, I think it's awesome that you've only been at it for a year. What would you say are a couple of things that have contributed to your finding success, maybe like habits?Rob: Great question.Adam: That's a good question. I think [00:11:00] just kind of the discipline of, of even though when you're tired and, and, and don't want to go out to the garage and tear down a range or whatever, just making sure I, you know, you set goals of, I want to list one item per day. That's one thing the group has been really helpful with holding me accountable. We have a lot of challenges in the group, you know, we have the 30-day listing challenge, so that sticks in my head. I'm like, well, I got it. I don't want it, but okay. I gotta go out and do that cause I want to be able to post in the group that I made my listing for the day. Staying positive too, because there are challenges that have come up this year where, you know, for example, I had someone return a thousand dollar cooktop.They returned a different one than I had sent them. And, you know, they had, you know, it was a big scam. They were trying to, you know, it was fraudulent of course. And that was really stressful because it was, you know, I had paid the shipping. I had had to pay for them to ship it back to me cause I, [00:12:00] and so there was a lot of money on the line.So working through that, staying positive, knowing that everything can be kind of figured out and like it'll work out, in the right way in the end. That's not really a habit though. You can take that part out.Rob: But it's good. No, no, no, I like that. That's good. That's honest. We're working through a return right now, and that's one of the things that people, it does happen. There's bad parts to business. There are, there are bad parts that you do not want to deal with. And we're doing the same thing right now and you have to figure out the best way to do it, the best way to do it ,the best way to work it. And then you learn from every single situation.So even that return that you did, I guarantee you learn some stuff out of that return that you're not going to do the next time around. You're going to do it differently. So sometimes, I mean, we call it. It's not our coined phrase, but stupid tax to where you maybe acted quick out of something or you did something you learn from that, and I do the same thing every time I have something like this happens and you learn for the next [00:13:00] situation, how to handle it better.Melissa: To know is that those things they don't happen very often. Unfortunately, that's what keeps people from doing a reselling side hustle, because they'll think, oh, I don't want you know, to lose money on returns, but like that's the first return we've had in a year and a half.Rob: Yeah.Melissa: You're going to have that part of business in any business you do.Rob: And I'm sure you're the same way as a $1,000 cooktop, if you're making $5,000 $7,000 a month, you're not dealing with these all the time.Same with us. We've made probably $150,000 and ours was the same thing. A thousand dollars. A $1,300 that we're dealing with. And we'll come out okay with ours because I'll have insurance claim on it because it was damaged. But at the same time, it's just a little bit of red tape that you have to go through.So, I think that's great advice for people listening. This is not all hunky-dory. You still will have to work in there's some, some situations that will come up. It's how you shine through those situations and how you learn from them.Adam: Yes. Yeah. I would agree with that. That maybe the discipline or the habit there is just treating each situation as a, as a learning. You know, really, [00:14:00] since I'm in my first year, It's really, I've done a lot of stuff like that, where I'm going to just going to try this because I want to learn what it's like. You know, I want to learn how to do this. I obviously, I didn't try to do a return or a, a scam, but,Rob: You learn how to handle it though. You learned that it is, that stuff happens. Not that often. Trust me. I've never had,Melissa: I've never heard that with that big of a cooktop.Rob: No.Adam: It was a pretty gutsy move by them to return a completely different, it was the same model. Thankfully, I, I had taken pictures of the serial number and those were in the posting and, you know, we had to go, I had to go through the whole thing of filing a police report and all of that.And eBay did refund me. I did, I do think the buyer did probably, he got refunded automatically, you know, when, when he returned the thing. So, I don't know if he got flagged in the eBay system or not, and taken out, but they did refund me as well after I filed the police report and gave them the evidence. It all worked out in the end, you know, it was, you know.Rob: And that's, [00:15:00] that's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. You might've done a couple of things different than you did, but you had the proof that it was a different cooktop that he returned. You filed a police report, you got to the end of it. And you got your money back on the situation, on the, on the sale. Trust me, it's a headache, but everything is a learning experience. So like I said, you probably would do a couple things different or you probably know next time it happens.Melissa: But he had the pictures that was a big part of it.Rob: Exactly, it's huge to be able to have that. So, no, I, I kudos to you. I think that's awesome.And you're in your first year. A lot of people will roll over when something like this happens and go, oh, I'm outta here. I'm not flipping anymore. I can't do it when this is the result. And, it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen sometimes. You have to be able to roll with the punches.You have to learn from it and you have to move forward. So, that's awesome that that's, that's your mindset and that's where you're at right now. I, yeah, I applaud you for sure.Adam: Yeah. I did feel that way that week, you know, I had several returns that we could, another damaged cooktop and it was, it was pretty low point and it was thanks to the group too, you know, Stacy,I don't know if I can [00:16:00] say her name on this public... Stacy really helped me through both of those events. And if it weren't for the group, I think, you know, I really would have considered like, maybe this isn't for me, but yeah, she really supported me a lot of time on Facebook messenger. Like, this is how you do that.This is, you know, this is what you should do, a lot of great advice. So, I'm Immensely grateful for not only Stacy but the whole group too on getting through stuff like that.Rob: Good, andMelissa: something to say about having a like mind, like just encouraging people to do it at the same time. So when you do something like that, or have something like that happen, then you do have people alongside of you and you can figure it out.Rob: And some of you guys not know the group he's talking about. We actually have Flipper University. We have a core members, a members group Flipping For Profit, that everybody who goes through our university, we have a free members only group, and that's what he's talking about. We have close to a thousand people in there. Like-minded people that do exactly this, [00:17:00] they're flippers. So it's really, really cool just to be able to interact and I'm sure there's other groups out there like this, guys. Well, ours, isn't the only one, but get involved in one, if you can. That's, that's one of those things is being around like-minded people who can help you. You know, we have all different stages in our group, people that are just starting, and then professional flippers, like us, that are doing it full time. So you have great advice from everybody, which is awesome.Melissa: Yeah, so let us know what is one of your more memorable flips aside from maybe that cooktop?Adam: Let me see. More memorable flips. I think you guys have asked me this question before, too. I don't know that this is a great one for me, because everything seems so boring. You know, it's all like,Rob: Yeah, maybe a high profit, one of your highest profit flips. That, I mean, that's what sticks out to me when I think about stuff.Adam: Well, I think you guys both know about this one, but, one of, one of a more recent one that was really fun is I picked up a cooktop for a hundred dollars on a [00:18:00] Sunday afternoon. And it was in great shape, hardly had any use. I, I brought it home, wiped it down, took my 12 photos, posted it on eBay. It sold the next morning for $1,300. I shipped it out like two days later. So like turning around $1,200. Well, it wasn't all $1,200 profit, but turning that around, within like a couple of days, it was pretty amazing. That was one of my fastest flips I've ever seen.Rob: I love it. That is a great one. And it is memorable that when you make those flips, yeah. You're, you're proud of yourself. I mean, you found a good deal you got it on, you gave somebody else a really good deal for the cooktop. So, no, that's awesome. I love it. And yeah, cooktops, are they're a lot of fun you, if you know what you're doing, and you find those right cooktops to flip, you can make some serious, serious money as Adam's showing us right now, for sure.Melissa: If you had to have, like, if you wanted to give a tip or two, like for somebody just getting started in this, like what would be like one thing that you maybe wish you would've known when you first started that like, [00:19:00] okay that you would give to somebody?Adam: A good tip, I think it just, you know, find the reseller community online, whether that be Flipper University and the group that we're in or whatever it is. There's so many resources out there available for free to get you going. That would be my first bit of advice, beyond the standard of, you know, start with stuff that's in your house and that will help you learn the process of eBay or whatever platform you're using to sell on. And it's low, really low risk. And then, but finding that online community of support. It is priceless. It's gonna, they're going to help you through everything from listing to shipping, to dealing with difficult customers or difficult returns and, all of that stuff. So, that would be my, if someone's serious about it and really wants to do it, it's find the community.Melissa: Awesome.Rob: That is great advice because it is, it's not, you're not doing this alone. And you've learned that. When you have people around you who are there to [00:20:00] build you up, when you're having that bad day of, hey I had a return or even a bad week of I had a couple returns and I'm trying to figure out what's the best, what's the next step in these returns, you have those people around you that are building you up and helping you stay focused and work through these situations. So you get past them, you get through them and then you just can keep going on. So a community is a huge thing and that's really cool that you've seen that.Because it does, it helps a ton in this business, if you have the like-minded people around you. For sure. So a great, great tip. Great advice for sure.Melissa: I'm not sure if we asked this though, before, what are your major platforms that you're selling on?Adam: Pretty much, I would say 90% on eBay. I do sell a little locally off of Facebook Marketplace so or OfferUp, and that's mostly items I don't want to ship, or it's just easier to flip locally. So yeah, 90, 90%, 95% on eBay.Melissa: Yeah. That's about ours, same.Rob: Awesome, same as us. Yeah. eBay's our main go just because of the people that it reaches, that's it. And then local. So awesome. Well, [00:21:00] Adam, thank you so much for jumping on here and giving us all this great information. You are, you know, you are, you're a year into it, but you have so much wisdom and knowledge in that year.I'm super excited to watch your, your journey unfold, and all the flips that you're gonna make in the next year. So. Congratulations. Thank you so much for, just giving, everybody, some great, great tips and some great advice on how to, how to further their reselling business. So thank you, thank you.Melissa: Thank you.Adam: Thanks Rob and Melissa. It was great to be on. Thanks for all you've done for me too.Rob: Of course, of course. All right. Have a great day, Adam. Thank you so much.Yup. Thanks guys. Bye.

Reseller Hangout Podcast - Jason ThriftsRob: [00:00:00] All right guys, today, we are super excited to have Jason T. Smith with Jason Thrifts, to talk to, give us some great pointers about his reselling business.Melissa: Thanks for being on here with us.Jason T: Thanks for having me. What's going on, guys?Rob: Not too much. We're super excited to talk to you. Love to get a little bit of your background, kind of how you got into reselling, and start with that first.Melissa: This is fun too, because we actually were on your show, it's probably been two or three years now. It's been awhile. And now we're doing a podcast, we get to have you come on here, so it's a lot of fun. Thanks for doing this with us.Jason T: It's always fun to be on the other side of the desk. You know, I love hosting and interviewing, but yeah, I love being a guest every once in a while too. I got started when I was six. My mom, well, my mom and my grandmother drugged me to flea markets and garage sales. And my mom lost me at the big flea market in our town. I just wandered away and she found me talking to the vendors, asking them what they were selling and why were they selling it?I was a very [00:01:00] inquisitive little kid, and I didn't really fully grasp it till I was about 10. And so this is back in the late seventies, early eighties. And I realized we, when we went to a community garage sale where the entire front yard of the school was, everyone had their table, there was a lot of toys, and I realized at that moment I can buy twice as many used toys as I could new toys, and I'd rather have more stuff than new stuff. So at that point I understood the value of used items, but I turned it into a career.I lost my job in March of 2000 and I was kind of despondent. My wife and I were newly married, and how are we going to pay our mortgage with one of us out of work? And you know, like a lot of people do when you're feeling depressed, you do a little retail therapy. So I went down to the local record store and I saw they had a table of dollar CDs. And this is April of 2000, so online selling was brand new and I'm like, these CDs have to be worth more than a dollar.So I picked 20 of what I [00:02:00] thought were the best CDs, and I went home and I sat down, and I taught myself how to sell and I just kept on selling from that point on. It wasn't a full-time gig cause I didn't think it could be. So I, I finally went and got a job and I would sell in the evenings. And then about 10 years ago, I got an infection in my arm, spent five days in the hospital. We fought my life and the unhappiness at the real job I had and I haven't looked back since. I've been a reseller since that full-time and also full-time teaching others how to do it.Rob: I love it. I love it. And the cool thing is, I think that's a misconception for a lot of resellers. It's like, you can't do this full time. I had to tackle the same thing for me. It's like, you can't do this full time and you can. You can absolutely do it full time. So that's very, very exciting that, that was your realization. I thought I was the only one who had that realization, but now talking to you, I'm like, yeah, that's how it is. That's how it comes to be. So that's really cool.Jason T: But sometimes tragedy makes you have that rethink your life realization. I had this infection in my arm, stuck in the hospital for five days, had two life-saving surgeries to clean this infection out of my arm, [00:03:00] and in those five days I just sat there and thought, man, I hate my job. I hate going to work, and what am I going to do? Let me hustle hard at reselling and make it a full-time career. And here we are hanging out today.Rob: That's awesome, I love it.Melissa: So what platforms are you mostly active on and did you start there?Jason T: Yeah, so I've been on eBay for 22 years, and back then I was also on Half.com. That's where I sold a lot of my CDs. Unfortunately, eBay bought Half.com, so that's for you old timers out there. And then they ruined the brand and then just dissolved it. And then I got onto Amazon. I've been selling on Amazon for about 17 years. And as of the last, you know, five or six, I'm pretty big on Mercari and I use Etsy and Poshmark and Depop and Bonanza, and TrueGether, and Facebook Marketplace. So, I have about 10 that I'm currently on, at all times.Melissa: Wow.Rob: That's awesome. That's huge. I mean, 90% of our sales are on eBay.Melissa: But we don't really try to crosspost that much.Rob: That's awesome. That's totally awesome.Melissa: You mentioned CDs, so is that your favorite thing to still [00:04:00] resell?Jason T: Oh, yeah. My two big things are music, so CDs, cassettes records, eight tracks, reel to reels. And then I collect a Tiki mugs. And if you don't know what a Tiki mug is, when you go into a Tiki bar, you often get a cocktail in a ceramic vessel, and then you take it home. And then, so those are collectible, the old ones, the new ones, and then you can resell them. So I've also perfected essentially drinking cocktails for free. So you go to the bar, you get the cocktail with the take-home mug, and then you sell the mug on eBay. And the money you make on the mug is what the drink costs with the mug. So in an essence, the cocktail was free.Rob: I love it. I love it. That is awesome for sure. A great thought process.Jason T: Did that make me sound like an alcoholic? I hope not.Rob: Another question that I'm thinking of while you're talking so, I'm assuming you are a music buff. This is something that you enjoyed before you got into this? Talk a little bit about that cause that's one of the things that we try to tell people too, is the best place to start reselling is definitely in something you enjoy or a hobby. So how did you get started in the music industry?Jason T: My uncle threw me on the back of his [00:05:00] motorcycle when I was 10 years old. It was 1981 and we went and saw the Charlie Daniels Band at the height of The Devil Went Down To Georgia and I had seen the Donny & Marie Show when I was younger, but this was my first big, full concert, 20,000 people. It blew my mind. I was hooked from that moment on. And when I started selling those CDs, 22 years ago, I had always been collecting music. I still do. It's 2021 at the recording of this, and I still have 4,000 CDs alphabetized into my house. Those are my personal collection, so I still love collecting music, but I realized right away that not everyone is everywhere where music is plentiful. You know, people who live in other countries, remote, remote parts of this country, don't have the access I live in Vegas. I can go to LA, I go to Phoenix and so I've always collected it. Plus I worked for a chain of CD stores. The one I got laid off from was a stores in Detroit, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh.So I worked throughout those three states and then I went to work for one of the biggest independent CD [00:06:00] stores in LA called Fingerprints. And then I moved to Tower Records back in the early 2000s. So I was a night manager at Tower Records in Hollywood. And so back then, if you wanted music or movies, you couldn't, I mean, you could order online, but it was very, very in its infancy.So if you were a celebrity, you just had to come to Tower. So all day long, I'm helping like Don Henley and Paul Stanley of KISS, and B.B. King and Meg Ryan. And so I got, you know, I, I got used to the used stuff from the used stores, but I also got, I understood merchandising and selling better from working for a big corporation, like Tower.Melissa: So are the CDs still selling now with all the new downloads out that you can stream?Jason T: That's my wall of CDs for sale on Amazon. This week, I've shipped a $200 CD, $115 CD, $100 CD that was just a one-song Christmas CD.Rob: Wow.Melissa: That is a niche.Rob: That is a niche.Jason T: And that one I bought online on one website for $15, and then sold it on Amazon for a $100.Rob: That is awesome. [00:07:00] So if you don't know anything right now, this is an amazing business to be into, definitely the music industry.Melissa: I had a question back when you were talking about how many platforms you're listing on. So are you using a cross-posting tool to do that?Jason T: Yeah. So I'm using a Chrome extension called cross-listed and that cross lists between eBay, Etsy,Posh, Depop, and Mercari, and then some things like some of the high-end CDs, you know, there isn't a hell of a lot of customers that are willing to pay $500 for a CD. There's a few just not a ton. So I can put that on multiple platforms at the same time, with not any fear that there's going to be a run and it's going to sell in three places at once. Ten dollar CD, sure. $500? It takes a while for the customer to figure out where you are, but that's why I use all these platforms. And that's what people need to learn, especially when they're new. Not every customer is on eBay. My last assistant who just moved, she had never been on eBay and she's 44 years old, until she worked for me. Never.And so, [00:08:00] but she'd been on Etsy and she's sold on Etsy. She'd never shop on eBay, never sold on eBay, so you have to realize your customers aren't in one place. So you've got to go find them because if you've got it listed on Amazon for two years and it hasn't had a bite and you put it on eBay for one day and it sells, okay, that's where that customer is. So you gotta figure that out and, and keep doing where they are.Melissa: And start listing some more.Rob: Yeah, that's a great point, guys, he just pinpointed your customer might not be on the platform you're at, especially if that's your hobby. Whatever your hobby is, mess with those different platforms. You got to go and find where your customer's at and like Jason is doing, he's cross posting it. So you're constantly doing research in your business to find out the best place for that. That's a huge key point in this business, for sure. So, we're not even doing that for sure, but now you're encouraging me get out there and do that. That is a great takeaway for sure.Jason T: The other thing that's good about selling music as opposed to many other items, with some rare exceptions, when you list the CD or sell a CD, they're all the same shape, size, and weight. [00:09:00] And so once you know how to ship one, you know, a pair of jeans, a pair of jeans can be for a little toddler, or it could be for a giant man like myself. Those are greatly different sizes. CDs are all four ounces and they're all square.Melissa: So how many hours right now are you putting into your reselling business and what, what is your average monthly income from that?Jason T: So I put it a lot of hours. I don't really keep track. I definitely, and this is what you need to know when you're going to do this for yourself, you will work longer and harder than you ever have, and it'll be way more satisfying and enjoyable.And you can move about the country, especially if you have help. I do have two people helping me right now. And in the next seven days, I'm going to be in Cleveland, Vegas, Phoenix, and LA. And so I couldn't do that at a regular job without saying I need the whole week off, boss. I'm the boss. So I put in long hours and I work at night when, my wife and I are watching TV, but we get to spend time together, I keep working. But I probably put in 60, 70 hours a week, but it's stuff I love. I love finding these rare CDs. I love selling them. [00:10:00] And I do, you know, on average this year, I'm doing about $9,000 to $10,000 in sales a month, of my used product.Rob: That's no joke. That's awesome. And it's like you said, you highlighted, this is what you love. You're not going to an office every day. You're not punching on a keyboard. You're actually out. You're about, you're visiting music stores. You're sourcing, you're selling, so it's something that you absolutely love, and that's how we feel too. It's like, you're not really working. You are working and there is work to add there's aspects of work, but it's still stuff that you love so you can continue to do it and grow, which is, it's an amazing part of this business for sure.Jason T: And you do get addicted to it, to the point where every once in awhile, if you have a spouse that doesn't do what you do, and they're like, can we have a little break, because we're flying out tonight to see our folks. We have not seen our folks in two years and we're flying tonight and I have all these pictures of CDs, preloaded. I'm getting wifi on the plane and I'm listing the whole way home. So, because I know the next couple of days we're gonna be with my family and my wife's family, so those days will not be any work will be done. I'm stuck in a plane seat for four hours, might as well list some CDs.Melissa: We [00:11:00] try to do that before trips too, like, get as many pictures as we can so that while we'reRob: on the road, get them listed.Melissa: Get them listed. Do you have a flip that, I don't know if it's a CD or something else that is like one of your more memorable things that sticks out in your head? A cool flip that you did?Jason T: Well funny, I'm trying to ship it right now, but the shipping store next door, did me dirty yesterday. So after we're done talking, I got to go pick up a box from another store. I picked up 14 chairs from a casino that was going out of business here in Vegas. They were 1970s, Herman Miller office chairs, and here's a little tip. They hadn't seen them yet. The people who are running the liquidation sale and of the 14 chairs, 13 looked about the same condition and one was just beat to death. So I took a picture of the beat to death one, and I walked back to the front of the liquidation sale, and I said, how much were these chairs? And he goes, how many are there? I said 14. He goes, ah, $50 each. I said, sure, so the one I'm shipping [00:12:00] today, I sold for $1,200.Rob: Herman Miller is huge.Jason T: I average about $1,100 a chair and I spent a $50 a chair because I was smart enough to show them the crappiest one.Rob: Wow. That's crazy. I know we, one of the auctions that we have down here sells those chairs. It's actually, yeah. I don't know where they come from, but I know. Yeah. That is one of the brand names that you want if you're in, definitely office chairs, that is the name brand to go with so.Melissa: The funny thing is we've bought them before and sold them. And, but we don't keep that stuff because I'm like, why can't we just keep the nice stuff because we gotta make money on it. We did the same thing with the strollers forever. We wouldn't keep one of the Bob jogger strollers cause I'm like, oh, I can make $300 or I could keep it. I don't know. I think we've got to sell it.Jason T: Yeah. As much as I like music, when something comes in that Iwanted, and then I'm like, oh man, it's a $300 record. Okay. I'll just get the music in my computer and I'll sell the record.Melissa: Can you think of a, like maybe a flipping fail or one of an item, a flop?Jason T: Well, you know, I, I made money, [00:13:00] but this is when I learned the lesson of time is worth money too. I bought 6,000 records out of a dude's garage when I lived in Long Beach with my wife. We had a two bedroom condo and it took over our dining room for a year. You know, two bedroom condo, it wasn't that big. It was like 1,200 square feet, but we lost a whole room for a year.And when I looked back at the money that I made, it was money. Compared to what I spent to, what I made. I made thousands of dollars. But then as I grew in this business, I realized, oh my God, the amount of time I spent digging through those 6,000, because there wasn't a ton of home runs and amount of time I and gas, I spent driving all over LA trying to trade in the stuff that wasn't worth the time to sell online.I think I lost money because I didn't value my time back then, so it was a good learning experience. Everyone has to go through that, but yeah, that was a fail. Like I could have made the same amount of money, much smarter.Rob: That is a great, great point in learning that, and then growing from that.Melissa: Time is valuable, very valuable and to know your, what your time is worth.Jason T: When you see people on Facebook going, you know what this customer is trying to screw me.[00:14:00]I've been on the phone with eBay for three hours. I've posted my complaint in 12 Facebook groups. And I go, how much was this item that you're spending three hours, $20. Look, no one wants to get being taken advantage of, but you've got to evaluate. Okay, am I going to piss and moan and try and figure out how to get this $20 back? Or am I going to list for three hours and sell a lot more? Yeah, that's what you should be doing. It's a $10,000 purchase. Okay. Fight for that one. $20, let it go, let it go.Rob: That is, that is great advice. Do not tie yourself into this and screw yourself time-wise on something that is not worth it. And you're right, if it is an expensive item, then, you know, go after it, do it. But if it's not, don't mess with it. And the other thing is mentally your brain gets sucked into negativity when you're going after that. And it just screws you mentally, and you can't straighten it out. If you just walk away from it or no, okay, let me go with two items and replace that $20, it's one of those things that you have to know in the beginning. So I was going to ask you a story, I know you just told us recently that you actually did a trip and you, you visited [00:15:00] record stores or music stores while you're on the trip and you were able to pay for the trip, which is pretty exciting. That's cool. Can you tell us a little bit about when you do go away if this, if this is something that you live out, while you're traveling?Jason T: Unbeknownst to people who don't collect music in 2021, there's still 1,400 record stores in the United States, so they're everywhere. So when I travel on my Google maps, I pinpoint all the record stores, especially if I've not been there, the ones I want to go to. And I lucked out, my wife is not in this industry and she used to get that glazed look when we'd be in a record store for longer than 20 minutes where I could spend hours. But I got smart at one point many years ago and I gave her a printed out list. Okay. Go to the soul section, go to Prince and look for this CD. It's worth a $100. And so it was like a treasure map. And if she found one or two within that map, within that list, she goes like, cool, we keep on going and then I could work the rest of the store. So when we travel, she's really enjoys it.She knows how to scan and read it and everything. So we hit all the record stores cause she knows that what I bring home from those record [00:16:00] stores will pay for, if not all of it, at least part of our trip, because I can find those $100 CDs in any store. And people might say, don't the stores know what they're doing.They do to a point, but also they only price for the customer who's going to walk through the door in Phoenix. I price for the entire world because I ship worldwide, and so I can, I can command a higher dollar amount because I don't have that small of a potential customer pool. So yeah, every trip has paid for, and it's not just music.I do some clothing stores too. Like we're, we're going to Phoenix for two days, next week. And I've got all the CD stores and like Buffalo Exchanges, the used secondhand clothing stores, all mapped out. I got my trades of my crap cause I take my junk in, they give me some money and then I buy better stuff.Rob: That's awesome. Yeah, that's really, really cool. So being able to go on vacation and do this, and not only that, it's not like a drag to you, it's not like you're really working. You're actually out there having fun, doing this stuff you love, so that is so exciting.Jason T: But the key, especially for [00:17:00] a spouse you find the things where you can source next to a fun place to eat or an amusement park or whatever you guys like, because as soon as you're done, you just waltz right into that thing that the whole family's going to enjoy. And then they're like, oh, yay, cause they can see the prize. They can see the prize coming. Oh, dinner at our favorite restaurant is right next door to dad's favorite thrift store.Melissa: At the flea market, our kids get slushies or whatever they have icees in the middle it's right in the middle. So they know if they make it halfway through, then they can get one.Jason T: Exactly.Rob: If you can tell, Jason has been in the business for a while. He's got this thing planned out, how to intertwine it in his family, how to make money on vacation. I love it, man. That is awesome. That is so exciting for sure.Melissa: What would be two or three tips that you would give to somebody who has you know, dabbled in reselling or they want to take their business and grow it?Jason T: I would definitely start with what we already talked about. Start with what you know, but then the, the, the other half of that is you must expand.Once I go into a thrift store and found out there's no Tiki mugs and I've already [00:18:00] combed through the media, there's still a whole big thrift store left, and so I can leave with bras, and purses, and dresses. I don't wear any of those, but I've taught myself the good stuff, and while I'm in this store, I might as well grab all the good stuff and not just the good stuff that I love.So that's number one. Be prepared to fail and not sit in the corner and suck your thumb. Once you do, definitely learn from it. I host a weekly YouTube show inanda segment I had from the beginning, is my duds of the week. I show things that haven't sold that should have, and I'm, or I shouldn't have bought them and things that sold, like last night I share showed a CD.I paid $6 and I sold it for $5.95on Amazon. So with Amazon fees, I lost a lot of money, but I want to show it to people who are new. I'm doing this for 22 years, I still make mistakes. And the mistakes come typically with, all suddenly people don't care about that piece of music anymore. I bought it when they did, by the time I listed it, they don't. So embrace your mistakes and really [00:19:00] learn from them.And like, we kind of talked about prepare your family. If they're not together and doing this, you know, I feel bad for those people go, my husband or my wife or my significant other hates my eBay business. And so you, you know, you got to have a supportive family, and so figure out a way if your, if your profit or slash death piles are taken over everything, maybe find a way to move them.You know, but you've got to have a supportive family. If they're not, you've got to have that sit down, say, this is, this is mommy, daddy's, whatever's busy. Here's how it's going to work. You can all help me and it'll be better. And guess what? We'll go to Disney World if you help me. See, got eye on the prize, always eye on the prize.Melissa: Yes.Rob: Or get a slushee if you go to the flea market, for sure. For sure. No, I get it. Those are great, great points for sure. And that's something that everybody can learn.Melissa: Personally, I was not into flipping whenever we got married. So it was something that I learned and it wasn't, it's not a real passion of mine. I enjoy it now. But I think the biggest thing for me is [00:20:00] once I saw what he could make. So like, like, oh, okay, well, we're spending this much, but we're making this much now. I'm like, okay, I could get into this making money thing.Rob: And we adapt on your vacation as well. That's the same thing we try to do. We try and find those items on vacation when we're traveling that will pay for the vacation. So, that's one of those things that she's happy about making money on vacation, even if it takes a little bit of our time to pick something up.Melissa: Yeah. An extra 30 minutes detour to go pick something up, off of OfferUp or whatever.Rob: But happy happy wife, happy life.Jason T: I've been with my wife since 1990.And so, yeah, I understand that. We were in Maui once and it rained more than it'd ever rained in Maui, in the history of Maui. And it rained so much, she looked at me while we were just stuck in our room and she goes, let's go thrifting. Now for my wife to say that in Maui tells you how bad the weather was, because she doesn't mind going a little bit, but for her to suggest it is totally, totally next level.I would like to add one more little tip is about the goal thing [00:21:00] where I'm talking right now is a house that I do not live in, but I do own, and it houses my entire business. And I realized at a point that our business, my business taken over our house and I understood the family, my wife, we don't have any kids just was tired of it.And I went to look for a commercial space and by pure luck, the house four doors down from us was for sale cheap and the owners wanted gone quick. And so I invested in this property to house my office and I've since gained a lot of equity in this property in just two and a half years. So it was the smartest business move I've ever made because at the end of a rental space, all you have is cashed checks. At the end of this, when I leave this, I'll have made a lot of money on just the, the office, basically.Rob: That's very smart. That's awesome. And a great tip too, for sure. So when your business is taking over your house, exactly. Go buy the house next door.Jason T: And I mean, just the timing. It was amazing, but my wife just told me what the house is worth yesterday, compared to what we pay. And I'm like, yay. [00:22:00]Rob: That is super exciting.Melissa: You can't sell yet though. Cause you got a lot of stuff.Jason T: Oh no, no, no. I'm not going anywhere yet, but down the road, I'm like, yeah, this will be a nice, you know, because what, what the mortgage is, is what I was going to pay for in rent.Rob: Exactly.It's the exact same. So boy, if you can pull it off and I didn't tell people for a while, cause I thought people would be like, oh, he's bragging, he has two houses. I'm like, no, it was a smart business investment, that's going to pay huge dividends at the end. So if you can pull it off, do it.Melissa: That's what we're renting. We just a year or so ago started renting a warehouse.And I, I told him like, we really need to just get property and get a warehouse of our own. Then we own it and it makes so much more sense down the road. So that's on the goal eventually.Rob: Well, that's good. I like your mindset too, though. Instead of going into commercial property, you got a house that can do the same thing,or you that you could move into whatever. If you move into it or use it as an office, I like that. I like that thought process a lot, and that's a retirement for you. One day, you're going to get a nice chunk of change when you go sell it and you're ready to just, you know, [00:23:00] travel or do whatever with your wife, whatever your passions are, at that point.Melissa: Back to Maui in better weather. So, where can everybody find you today?Jason T: So my name is Jason T. Smith. I do have a business page for my Jason Thrifts on Facebook, but my big group is The Thrifting Board, it's ,about, we're about to hit 60,000 members. It's a free group. Come on on, come on over. We have, resellers of all shapes, ,sizes, ages, brand new today, been selling for 30 years, whatever. And I do two YouTube shows every week. And my channel is just my name. Jason T. Smith. Thursday nights is thrifty business, have a guest expert on something every week. And then Sunday, I host one with my mom who is 78 years old.Her and my dad are both 78. They sell on eBay and they kill it. They make a couple thousand a month, part-time at 78 years old. So when you say I can't do this, I can't do this, my folks can do it. They're 78. You can do it too. So my mom and I, co-host a show, she co-hosts a [00:24:00] YouTube show with me on Sunday nights called Selling Past Your Expiration Date, Being Thrifty Over 50.Melissa: I'll check that out.Rob: Yeah, that is awesome for sure. And you're a busy man. You got a lot of stuff going on, but I'm glad you got all those different avenues that people can connect with you, so it's very, very exciting. So, Jason, thanks for doing this, man. We appreciate it, that you jumped on here and gave some of your time and awesome, awesome tips on how people can be more successful in the reselling business. So thank you so much.Jason T: Oh, thanks for having me. I love what you guys are doing and I love the energy you guys put out. So I am around anytime you want to do something. I think I have unlimited energy, then I watch you two, and I was like, I'm a slacker. I am, I am a slacker.Melissa: That's all him.Jason T: It definitely bounces off of you too.Melissa: I try. Sometimes he'll just start talking and I'm like, I can't, I just can't.Rob: Well cool. Well, thank you so much. Like I said, we'd greatly appreciate you, appreciate your friendship and all the great information that you're bringing out to the workplace and the flipping industry for sure.Jason T: Thanks, guys.Rob: Thank you.

Do you ever feel like you and your spouse speak completely different languages? Do you feel like you're extremely under appreciated? But when you try to voice your feelings to your partner they are quick to dismiss how you feel? Is there anything that you can do to overcome these hurdles in your marriage? Is there some way to improve the way you communicate with each other? Well, let me introduce you to Melissa Salmeron! Melissa is a Certified Master Coach, specializing in Mom Life, and healthier, happier relationships. She shares with us some amazing wisdom about relationships and communications. While, sharing a little bit of her story and why she chose to help other mom's. Melissa says: "It's not about what everyone else is doing, what the world thinks you should do, or how you think you should be. It's about connecting with who you are and defining motherhood for yourself." Listen to 'Can My Marriage Get Better' now! Details from the show, and where to connect with Melissa: You can take the 123 DISC Personality Test that Melissa mentioned on the show! And, it's free! Here's the link: https://www.123test.com/disc-personality-test/ Learn more about Melissa and her amazing coaching! Her Website: https://www.melissasalmeron.com To join the 'Overwhelmed to Connected' Mom Group, hosted by Melissa. Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/overwhelmedtotheconnectedmom/?ref=share Follow Melissa on Instagram: @melissa_momcoach To Connect with Jaymee: Website: www.thegenuinemom.com Instagram: @jaymee.the.genuine.mom TikTok: @jaymee.the.genuine.mom Facebook: @the.genuine.mom Join Facebook Group: The Anxious Mom Club If you'd like to suggest a topic for The Genuine Mom Club Podcast, or believe you'd make an awesome guest, email me! Email: thegenuinemomclub@gmail.com

In the wild world of ecommerce, the status quo is always changing. New companies enter the market to disrupt the norms. Legacy brands pivot to get a piece of the pie. Successful niche businesses get acquired left and right. With so much happening all at once, it takes a lot of work for brands to not only keep up but to get out ahead and win.Andrea Leigh and Melissa Burdick have made it their mission to stay on top of everything that’s happening and use their knowledge to help companies large and small make an impact in the market. Andrea, who you may remember from a previous episode where she discussed how to win on Amazon and the death of the category, is the VP of Strategy and Insights for Ideoclick, and Melissa is the Co-founder and CEO of Pacvue, a company that helps advertisers scale on big ecommerce platforms like Amazon, Walmart, and Instacart. A few customers of theirs include Unilever, Duracell, and Johnson & Johnson.These ladies each spent 10 years at Amazon “back when ecommerce wasn’t cool,” as Melissa says. Today, at their current companies, they work with disruptors and major brands alike as they come to realize that ecommerce is not just a fad, but the way of the future. And that’s why I was so thrilled to invite them on this roundtable episode to talk about all the trends they’ve been seeing recently, and to get their take on where things are headed. How are major brands moving to digital? Why are companies investing more in shorter product life cycles? What is the future of dropshipping and ad platforms? I wanted to know, and they delivered the goods. So sit back and enjoy! Main Takeaways:David vs. Goliath: In the world of ecommerce, it often boils down to small, niche brands competing against the bigger companies with a long history and much bigger budgets. In order to compete, small brands are forced to think differently, be more hyper-focused on product and customer feedback, and be intensely in tune with the ROI of any ad spend.Shorten That Lifecycle: Brands today are finding out the importance of being nimble and developing shorter product life cycles. When the unexpected happens, markets shift, or industry standards change, having a product already in process of a nine-month cycle puts you at a disadvantage to other brands that can pivot and change course quicker. Having a pulse on what consumers want, gathering data, and digging into feedback can help with the acceleration process.Show Me The Money!: In the past, measuring the ROI of advertising was a bit more challenging. Now, with the amount of data that you get from digital campaigns, measuring the return on investment of an ad campaign is much easier to track because you can correlate clicks and track customer journeys from ads. And with the number of new platforms that are constantly popping up, there is a bit of a new retail explosion that brands can take advantage of and track in unique ways. And today, regardless of the platform — new or old — brands will not advertise at all unless they can get a full view of the data and metrics from the ad platforms they work with.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone and welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today is a very special episode because it's our second ever round table and our guests are going to blow your mind or at least going to blow mine for sure. First up, we have Andrea Leigh who you probably remember. I think she was on episode 81 or so. She currently serves as the VP of Strategy and Insights for Ideoclick. Andrea, welcome.Andrea:Hi Stephanie, thanks for having me back.Stephanie:So glad to have you back. Your episode really was one of my favorites, which is why it's very clear we need to have Andrea back on the show. I think we even said that in our episode, so probably no surprise that you're here. All right. And joining Andrea and I is Melissa Burdick who serves as the president and co-founder of PacVue. Melissa, welcome to the show.Melissa:Thanks so much for having me.Stephanie:Yeah. We are excited for you to join our party. So you guys seem like you have some history. You seem like you're friends, you're in club house together. I was hoping to start there just so the audience knows who are you and how do you guys know each other. Andrea, you want to kick it off?Andrea:Well, I would love to tell the story of how I remember first meeting Melissa. We worked at Amazon together. I think this was in maybe 2006. She was the buyer for the health and personal care side of the business and I was the buyer for the grocery side. And we both negotiated with the same vendor, same brand that span both categories in the same day. We met in the kitchen afterwards and she had gotten such a better deal on her negotiation. Such better terms than me and I couldn't believe it because I was a total newbie and she was a really experienced negotiator. And so I made her teach me all of her tips and tricks. That's my memory of my first time meeting Melissa.Stephanie:Wow. Melissa, do you remember that day?Melissa:I didn't really remember it until Andrea told me and I didn't remember it that way. So it's funny the perception that she had versus what I had, but she and I both spent 10 years at Amazon. We were early pioneers of the consumables category back when ecommerce wasn't cool. And so we really got to do a lot of great stuff. I call it the cheapest MBA I didn't have to pay for working at Amazon, because we learned how to ship tubes of toothpaste probably. Well, I don't know if we've ever figured that out or will across the internet, but it really was Wild Wild West of ecommerce times and Andrea and I were there at the beginning and that's how we met each other.Melissa:We actually had a consulting practice together. We've been friends in the industry. Now we're competitors in some ways, but that's the beauty about our community and industry is that we're still friends. I tell brands, it takes a village to do ecommerce because it's so complex. And so having thought leadership and experts is what we like to do. So Andrea and I have a Clubhouse show that we do together and still keep in touch.Stephanie:Yeah, I remember when Andrea, we were like, who should we have on for a round table? And she brought you up and then when she was explaining, she was like, "Kind of a competitor to our firm, but we're friends and we work together." And I was like, "Whatever you want, girl. We'll bring her on if you love her." I'm sure I will too. So yeah, that's awesome. So, okay. I want to get into the topic. I know you all have a Clubhouse later on today that you're going to be hosting, which I think the topic that we're going to be covering there is perfect for this show.Stephanie:And like I said earlier, it'd be perfect practice all around how brands are going to market and how the world of ecommerce and commerce in general is so different now. So maybe Melissa, if you want to start with how do you even view the world now versus a couple of years ago? Like what's different? What are brands struggling with that maybe they never had to think about before?Melissa:Yeah, I mean, to the earlier point of your question, the moat is so much smaller now. The ability to create a brand is much easier. So years and years, 20 years ago, when ecommerce didn't really exist, it was, you're a big brand, you get into the shelves of a Walmart because you're tied or something like that. But with ecommerce and with more platforms and marketplaces, there's this ability to create a brand and a loyal following and base through things like social media, TikTok, or viral ways that you can build communities and brands.Melissa:And so today we're talking about a couple brands, DUDE Wipes, and Wyze camera or I guess Wyze actually they started with a camera. They both are emerging brands. They weren't the big P&Gs and Samsungs of the world. They built emerging disruptive brands and they've been very, very successful. And so that's a little bit about today's show. What about you, Andrea, what do you think about these emerging brands?Andrea:Yeah, I mean, I think another thing that has really changed is the ambitions of brands. So I think brands were to your point Melissa, they were built by large organizations and they were, you layer on this enormous supply chain and distribution and then a marketing engine on top of that in that order. And I think the two things that stand out to me as being different now with marketplaces is that first a brand can aspire to be smaller than that. A brand can aspire to just address a certain niche for a certain customer segment and do it really well. And maybe a brand wants to only be 100 million dollar brand versus a billion dollar brand and think that's posing some really stiff competition to some of the more established brands in the space, particularly in CPG.Andrea:So I think those brand ambitions are changing for sure. We did an internal panel with some clients and thought leaders and this was like a big topic there too, was these ambitions of brands and how they're different than they used to be. So I think that's a big one and then I think what those smaller brands can do better. And I think we've seen this with both DUDE Wipes and DUDE Wipes is that iterative approach to product development that incorporates the customer and their feedback. And so really thinking about why is this such a great example? They entered a super highly competitive market.Andrea:The category was already highly competitive with a lot of players and they just went in there and they did it better. And they did that because they were able to really listen to customer feedback, not just through reviews, but through all the social media channels and approach brand building in an iterative way. And so those are a couple of things that I've seen with some of our more upstart clients that have been really successful. That iterative approach and that really laser focused on a specific segment.Stephanie:Cool. So talk a bit about the ambitions of the brands. Do you think the brands that... like you said, maybe they don't need to IPO, they don't need to get acquired, they're looking to stay more niche and they're okay with that. Do you think they can sustain longterm because it feels like if you don't have goals to really make a mark, you're just going to get beat out by people who can spend a lot of money on ads and who just has a lot of other channels to create content and create content platforms. It's like they can do so much because of how much capital they have access to. What do you think about the brands who don't have those ambitions right now?Andrea:Well, I think for a handful of our clients, it's just a lifestyle business, right? We have a couple of brands who are a family owned and they've been family owned for generations and that's a lifestyle brand. They're running it because they have a lot of passion for the product or the category and they're product people. But I think in the other cases, they're mostly getting acquired. I mean, I think that's what we're seeing across the industry. They're getting acquired by a larger CPG. They get acquired by one of these newer FBA roll-ups or FBA aggregator companies that goes in and buys up all these small sellers on Amazon. But I think they get acquired. I think the challenge with that is that what I see is these CPGs either acquire them really early and then they try to scale it because most larger CPGs are in the business of scaling brands.Andrea:And so they try to scale it too fast, which kills what made the brand so special or they buy too late and they overpay. And so I don't think there's a super win-win there, but I mean, I guess it's a win for the brand because they walked away with a bunch of money. But I think that in terms of aspirations, maybe it still is to get acquired later or have investments or whatever, but still they're really focused on that segment that they're addressing.Melissa:The other kind of an offshoot of your question when you say, these brands don't have as much money to do these big TV ads. The other piece of that is they are extremely savvy and even savvier than these big brands to grow their brands. So they're actually able to do more with less because they're forced to. And so they have amazing product content or they figured out how to get to number one slot for their most frequently searched term because they understand the algorithms, they figure it out faster and they're more nimble and they have less of a portfolio to worry about. They just focus on a few products.Melissa:So they have a lot of benefits in that regard because they don't have that cushion and fluffy ad budgets and things like that to rely on. So they have to rely on having an amazing product, this iterative process of being able to mind keywords and understand, "Oh, this is the flavor that people are asking for. I need to go create this product." Product development takes a lot faster for them as well. And we've seen that with the Wyze. They're able to create more and more portfolio pretty quickly.Andrea:Melissa, do you think it's fair to say that some of these more disruptive brands are maybe more likely to channel their ad dollars towards the retailer ad platforms because they really need an ROI. For them to spend in some of the more sort of upper funnel activities might be harder.Melissa:Yeah. I mean, we see that especially with the seller marketplace. They are so ROI driven. It's all about if I pay a dollar, I better get a huge return for that dollar and ad advertising whereas these bigger brands are more focused on marketing their portfolio. And so they're much more focused on ROI of their advertising, whether it's anything from Google AdWords, Facebook advertising, whatever it is. They want real time data, real-time understanding of what's happening to their brand and it has to be profitable. And it's quite a bifurcation in how they look at advertising and marketing their products versus these bigger brands, which is more of a marketing play.Stephanie:Yeah. I think that agility to adjust and move quick is so key. I was just talking with a guest yesterday from a company Avocados From Mexico. Y'all ever heard about them? Wow. Their content strategy, like what they're doing. I mean, they've been winning the number two slot in the Super Bowl ads and her whole thing was like, you just have to be able to move quick. You need to be able to work with agencies who can try it on their own, run with creativity and just act quickly. And even when you don't have a budget, you can get scrappy and use organic growth hacky tactics to at least get up there in the beginning until you do have access to that budget. That was her number one thing though, move fast, try things out, fail quickly, and then iterate.Melissa:Exactly.Andrea:I just Googled them as we're talking and yeah, I can't wait to watch some of these videos. They look hilarious.Stephanie:Oh, her Super Bowl ad was so funny. I mean, all their stuff is funny. It was funny at first I was like, "Wait, why did Hillary schedule an avocado company for the show?" Americans super confused by this and I instantly got hungry, went out and started eating avocados. Once she came on I was like, "Oh, wow. They're a whole different level." Like you think about produce and a whole different way. I mean, they're doing AR stuff with their avocados. They're doing let's see, NFTs. They have been ahead, like years ahead trying stuff.Stephanie:I mean, they were trying NFTS and 2020 before it even became popular and they were trying to put ad campaigns on the blockchain. She was telling me a story about how they had an avocado Macy's day. What is it? Float. The only way the float would get there from Mexico to New York as if users would tweet about it. And so when you would tweet, enough tweets would happen and it would move the float to the next city. That's the only way it would ever reach New York is if they had enough engagement.Andrea:Oh, that's so fun.Stephanie:I know. It's so genius, but her whole thing was like, that's why you just try things and have that permission to experiment and a brand that can move quickly and not have to worry about competing top of funnel. Like you'd get it on that engagement level and scrap your tactics and you can win, which I think is awesome.Melissa:And I think that's harder for some of the larger companies to do, because I mean, even just that example you gave about like tweeting to get the avocado from city to city, which I think is hilarious and super fun. If that flopped, no one's going to say, "Oh, that dumb avocado company." It's just a memorable thing, but if it flopped and like, I don't know L'Oréal was doing that or something, I think it makes bigger, bigger news in not a good way.Stephanie:Yeah. Which always makes me think about the integration process of all these big brands are of course acquiring these hot D2C companies and it feels like there's so many out there right now. I mean, so many people come on our show and I always think like, "You're going to get acquired. You're going to get acquired." I mean, it just seems like that's the world we're in, but then figuring out how to integrate them into a culture, but not in a way that ruins it. I mean, have you guys seen good examples of that of companies who are acquired and then keep them in their own little startup hub of like, keep doing what you're doing. We don't want to ruin you.Andrea:I mean, we've seen it go both ways. So we have one client and I unfortunately can't share their name, but they were acquired by a really large CPG and they were allowed to operate separately because they're performing really well, but they're taxed so heavily by the rest of the organization because everyone wants to know how they're doing it. And so the amount of reach outs and coffee chats and all of that stuff and presentations and stuff that they have to give. I mean, it's an enormous burden on the small brand to try to teach a huge CPG how to be like them, you know? And I think that's hard. That's really hard for them.Andrea:I've heard that happens a lot of the time or they get folded in a little too quickly, but something that I was thinking about is what happens to the customer? Because a lot of times we buy these products from these smaller upstart brands. I mean, I think about like in beauty, two of my favorite brands are Glossier and Beautycounter and I love them. I love them partly because I feel like I'm supporting a company, well, at least in the case of Beautycounter, a company that stands for something which is like low chemicals and things like that.Andrea:I'm supporting their sales associate network and I'm supporting the smaller brand, but if they were to be purchased by like P&G tomorrow, I don't know at what my relationship with them feels like anymore. I'm not sure. I don't know. And so I wonder for some of these disruptive brands. What happens to that sort of authenticity and integrity when they're acquired? I don't know the answer to that.Melissa:The other thing that I've seen also is a lot of these bigger companies will siphon off people into a team of incubators and they just let them go. So they take them out of their company organization structure. Like you need all this approval process to go do your stuff. They then go create a direct to consumer brand or they're able to operate in that name nimble way. And they've been pretty successful getting learnings and trying to teach their organization some more nimble habits. So one route is buying the brand and then trying to keep them operating the same way and not to integrate it into that more bureaucratic process. And there's some successes and failures there. And then there's the big companies actually taking internal team to go do and not be subject to all the bureaucracy.Melissa:I've seen that as well, but I think the key that we all agree on is just this ability to be nimble, speed and if we've seen anything from ecommerce that's, what is the push.Melissa:So this nimbleness is something that's really important. In these product cycle times you need to get faster. And just the data like with this whole year of COVID when we're working with brands the question is, is this year I throw out your, because the behavior is just like totally off the chart. We know it's totally different. So how are you making decisions knowing that last year was not a good year to look at because things will return back to normal. How are you looking at it? And so getting faster at being able to look at data, to understand what's happening, knowing the trends of what's happening.Melissa:So the best example is like, MMM, Market Mix Models, where it's like, oh, from six months or a year ago, and you're making decisions on your media based on that. You can't do that. You can't look at six months ago because nobody's doing TV advertising because they didn't have any inventory. So you need to get much faster and that's what's really propelling more of this in this ecosystem. So I think we will see brands being faster because they've been given that inertia because of COVID.Andrea:Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, I read some study. I can't remember who put it out. I think it was McKinsey and they said something about, it was more than 70% of brand leadership said that they make decisions faster now than they did previously. I think you're totally right. You have to speak and COVID taught all these companies how to reduce their cycle times and be faster and be more diversified and all of those things. And I think those are the good things that we get to hopefully walk away from the pandemic with which are some changes to how decisions are made and things like that. And I would add to, Melissa, you talked about how these companies need to reduce their cycle times for everything, from budgeting to product development and I totally agree with that.Andrea:I think the other thing that these disruptive brands and particularly, Wyze and DUDE Wipes, is they incorporate that user generated content into their product development. So it's getting the cycle time down, but it's also figuring out how do you take all the stuff that people are saying about your brand in social media and in reviews and all these other places and incorporate that into your product development and your advertising and your content and all of that. I think the reason maybe that's some of the more scrappy upstart brands are better able to do that is because there aren't a lot of scalable ways to do that yet.Andrea:There are some tools that you can subscribe to and you can look across these channels and you can track your mentions and all that stuff but it's really a manual effort to be tracking a lot of that. And I think it's qualitative more than it is quantitative. And so I think some of those smaller brands that are still owner operator run just are more in tune with some of the sentiment of the customers and what needs to happen in the company versus maybe a brand conglomerate that has like 60 brands.Stephanie:Yeah. It also seems like bigger brands... I mean, I was talking with Stitch Fix a while back about how models can start running so quickly with training based off of how the consumers are feeling now, what they want right now and it seems like a lot of bigger brands do have access to crazy ML technologies and things like that to train these models to maybe make new product decisions, change their website every second based off how people are interacting with it. But I do also wonder, will we enter a year next year or the year after where it's like, whoa, what the people want now is not what they wanted two years ago and now all of our models have been falsely trained based off a two year craziness. I don't know.Melissa:Exactly. Yeah.Andrea:It's hard to look at anything. So much has changed in the world, I think in the last year that it's hard to look back at anything.Stephanie:What's real?Andrea:It's hard to go back and look at anything as a data point that's a predictor of the future. I mean, I think it's just really tricky.Stephanie:Yeah. I think about forecasting then that's my thought is like, I mean, that was exactly what I'm the VP of data science at Stitch Fix was talking about is like thinking about forecasting what clothes people are going to want and thinking about your inventory. And it seems like now you have to be able to shift so quickly, but then also you could be left flat-footed where you were planning for something that didn't end up playing out and people, all of a sudden want to be looking nice again, going out into the world, wearing high heels. I don't know. It seems like there will be a point when brands are like, oh shoot, I got to pivot again and get back to maybe our roots of where we started three or four years ago.Melissa:Yeah. And that's why it's all about-Andrea:... it's funny I would...Melissa:Yeah. I mean, it's art and science because the science, the AI models, they need data to work and they aren't very good with anomalies like COVID or like Prime Day or Sun Care member being like the sun care buyer and every single year at Amazon, we never bought enough Sun Care because it was like, couldn't predict that spike in the summer because the models were for the full year. But the modeling needs a lot of data for it to run. It doesn't do well with spikiness or anomalies and so that's where the art comes into play and the creativity you know, as well. So you have to think forward looking in terms of what are these trends, what are they going to be and Marriott together.Andrea:Well, Stephanie, you'd asked this in the beginning of what are some of the big challenges we're seeing across our clients and this one's not very sexy, but it's forecasting. It's so hard right now and they're all trying to figure out how do they forecast? Well, there's a lot of things you have to forecast. It's like, what are your year over your comps don't make any sense right now. I mean, it's like you can't even look at that. And so how do you forecast just demand on one platform because you don't know how much that platform is going to get, and then you don't even know how much of your business is going to be commerce, because that's all up in the air.Andrea:There used to be a pretty steady track of that getting a point a year or something like that. And now that's all over the place. Depending on the category you're in, you may be gain 20 points or something in ecommerce and then it's like, which retailer? It feels a little bit like a gambling exercise right now for these manufacturers trying to figure all that out. And then to Melissa's point, you have to line up an ad budget around that for these different retailer ad platforms and I think the forecasting is just so hard for them right now.Stephanie:Yeah. So let's talk a bit about the ad platforms and I know most of this right up your alley. So maybe you can speak a bit about how are companies thinking about ad platforms and approaching that? I mean, it seems like there's so much to pay attention to, so much to track, so much data. Like you're getting hit in the face all different ways of stuff now. What are you seeing behind the scenes when it comes to ads and platforms and how to go about that world?Melissa:Yeah. I mean, we've really seen an explosion of retail media. So it really started with Amazon, I think at this point, like five, six years ago when their app platform really started getting going, and Amazon makes a lot of profit from AWS and ads. And retailers can't really replicate AWS, but they can replicate advertising, which is great margin for them. And so just last year, we saw a launch of Walmart self-service ad platform, Instacart came out of nowhere. So to Andrea's earlier point, literally brands didn't have a budget allocated to Instacart and then off a planning cycle during COVID, this explosive new platform launches. Luckily a lot of brands had money because they weren't investing in TV advertising or other places. So they're able to allocate some dollars to it. But one of the big issues is nobody knows who owns the Instacart budget or platform, who's running that.Melissa:And then since then, there's just Criteo, what Target has launched, which is a slew of other retailers. So if you're not creating your own self-service ad platform like Amazon, Walmart Instacart you can leverage the network of Criteo who has Target and a bunch of other ones, CitrusAds is coming online as well. We went from not having a lot of retail media opportunities to advertise to now lots of opportunities to advertise with all kinds of different formats. And so it's a whole new brave world of trying to figure out where to advertise, but what I think brands believe is they want to be where their customers are. And so that's where it's really having a test and learn mentality of being able to get some of these test and learn budgets to see what's working well and get some data points and proof points and go from there.Melissa:And so that's where like tech stacks, like Pacvue or agencies who also have technology, like Ideoclick can help brands because they can help them figure it all out. And our value prop is really around unifying retail media so that you can see everything in one place, which is really important for these brands. So I think at the end of the day, you need savvy partners to help you, you need technology to help you, and then you need the strategist at your own company thinking through how to do these things.Andrea:Yep. I feel like right now all the money... and I also read that Dollar General recently launched an ad platform. That really surprised me.Stephanie:What? How [crosstalk] around really.Andrea:No, they did ecommerce. Sorry, Dollar General. [crosstalk]Melissa:How do you make money on that? Is that profitable?Andrea:I know, right?Stephanie:What are they doing?Andrea:It's pretty much like their value proposition is that everything cost less than $10 pretty much. So I don't know how they ship that online very economically. But in any case-Stephanie:$10. What? That cost will be less than a dollar. What happened? They really lost sight of [crosstalk].Andrea:Inflation. I think in the short term where the ad dollars are coming from. They're coming from the other ad options, like the theatrical releases or out of home advertising and TV and billboards and all that stuff. But when people start leaving their houses again, how much of those ad budgets go back to some of those more, I don't know, non retailer ad platform ad types and how much stays with retailer ad platforms. And I predict that a lot of it is going to stay with the retailer ad platforms. I think the reason is the metrics and ROI that you can get from that is like crack for marketers.Andrea:I mean, I don't even know how you would go back to spending on advertising where you don't get ROI metrics. I mean, I remember when Amazon advertising first launched, and that was one of the first performance marketing retailer ad platforms that you could work with and the reaction of the manufacturers just being like, "Oh my gosh, I can directly see a correlation between what I spent, who clicked on it, how many people saw it and then how many people bought it." And so I just don't..Stephanie:Wow. What does the ROI look like because I'm not deep in the ad world. So I don't know how to think about what retailer ad platforms looks like versus traditional. So how do I envision what you're getting in that world that you wouldn't be getting otherwise? What is that ROI look like or what are brands getting used to now where they're like, this is the only way I would do it going forward.Andrea:You want to take that one, Melissa?Melissa:Yeah. Well, I mean, I think traditionally if you're doing normal advertising, you're more focused on impression focus, right? You're really trying to get impressions. You're not tying back to sales of a product. And so in ecommerce, there's a direct tie back to, I spent a dollar, I got $5 of sales and there's like a brand halo associated with that. And so that tie back where I put an ad, if you leverage Amazon DSP, which is their programmatic display advertising, that's retargeting. So you can target to people who are looking for men's shoes within this certain zip code who shop Nike, but didn't buy it in the last 90 days.Melissa:You can get very, very specific targeting. You can show them an ad, drive them back to Amazon, to your product and then you actually know if they bought that product or not. And the actual sales attribution and return that you got from that versus just an impression buy like a Super Bowl buy, right? Where you've no data to say, "When I do a Super Bowl ad, you can try but there's no actual ROAS, return on ad spend that you get that correlates directly to an ecommerce sale. But I do think that media... people are doing all of these things, because some is upper funnel where you're more branding dollars and some as much lower funnel, direct marketing, that's conversion to a sale.Melissa:And so that's where these bigger brands are like, if there's a new product launch, you've got to get people to know about this product. So you might do like during the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl ads are like everybody's watching the Super Bowl and this year they had some weird like caveman soap. I can't remember the name of it, but on their Superbowl ad and so that was really to get attention and drive traffic to awareness of their brand. But not tied to specific ecommerce metrics.Stephanie:So how have you seen brands changing the way they're thinking about ads in a way that's focused on first party data collection, really trying to create that relationship from the start where maybe they weren't always thinking about this before. Have you seen brands shifting their mindset around creating an ad that maybe has the focus on that now?Melissa:Well, I mean, with all of the things happening within the privacy world where third-party cookies are going away. First party data becomes more important and so I think that this benefits platforms like Amazon who have a significant amount of first party data and hurts platforms like Facebook that rely on more cookies. But I think brands in general are really trying to build their own databases. So a lot of them have publicly talked about building direct to consumer businesses so they can own their customer. And so I think that they view first party data, building their own CRM and their own databases pretty highly. I don't know what have you seen Andrea in terms of brands that you work?Andrea:Yeah, I've seen the same thing. I think a lot of them are building their own CRMs, trying to figure out how to access more direct customer data. We talked about how it encouraged a lot more speed of decision making. I think it also encouraged a need for diversification in all ways like manufacturing and the ecommerce platforms that you sell on and how you source the product and I think diversification is really important. And I think there are a lot of manufacturers who've been feeling a bit squeezed by Amazon and it's nice to have options to have a D2C site. I mean, the D2C thing, I think is like a whole other topic, but I do think it's a lot more expensive to drive traffic to those sites. You're going to get a lot.Andrea:It's not going to be a hugely accretive to the business in the short term, but I do think it gives you access to your own customer data, which is, it can be a really important point of experimentation in a sandbox for manufacturers to really see what kind of marketing is working for them. So I've certainly seen that and then I think just looking across the retailer ad platforms, I mean, we've seen a push onto all platforms for a lot of our major manufacturers and wanting to access... If the customer's cross shopping, maybe it's the same customer, but also access different customers that are shopping across different ad platforms to Melissa's point earlier about wanting to be where your customers are.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. So the other day, Andrea, I was creeping on your Instagram, I think I was. And you were talking about omni-channel strategies and drop shipping as a catalyst for growth. I thought that was interesting because I feel like when I think about drop shipping, it's had this like crazy heyday drop ship, white label, everything. No one has to know who you are. You don't really need a brand. And then no one was really doing that anymore. It didn't seem like there was margins there to do that anymore or people really want to connect with a brand.Stephanie:Like, especially now everyone wants to know who's behind that brand, the story, they want to feel some connection with them. And when I saw you mentioned drop shipping, I was wondering, how are you guys viewing that? Maybe it's always been around and that's just my personal narrative I've written around it or how do you see brands maybe leveraging that right now?Andrea:Well, I think of drop shipping a little bit differently. It's still the brand. They're just bypassing the retailer and they're shipping directly to the consumer. You can do that as a seller in your own right on the marketplace platforms or you can also just do that behind the scenes. And there are a number of categories that are high percentage drop-ship and always have been. It's never going away. It's just not obvious to you as a customer. So shoes is a great example.Andrea:Those are often coming directly from the manufacturer. That's an industry that's been pretty heavy drop-ship for a long time and mainly because so much inventory, you have to carry. There's one style and then there's five size color combinations. And so it doesn't make sense to ship all that to a retailer and then have them re-ship it to a customer and try to keep the inventory levels right.Andrea:So shoes has always been a really big drop-ship business. If you pay attention to the stuff you get from Nordstrom and others, you'll notice that it's often coming directly from the manufacturer. Sporting goods is another one. Some of the bigger bulky categories have been traditionally drop-ship because you don't want to ship like a treadmill to a retailer district warehouse or whatever. It does expose the retailer to a degree of risk because you're not packaging the product. So you lose a little bit of control over the quality, the consistency of the customer experience. I think what I posted was that Nordstrom was going to try to open up more assortment through ship.Andrea:It's a little risky. I mean, I don't think it's highly risky, but I do think it presents some risk in losing control over the customer experience, depending on if the retailer is still deciding the assortment, you could lose a little bit of your credibility as a retailer. I mean, I think part of why customers are starting to shop a lot of places besides Amazon is for the curation. Is because it's a little bit of an easier shopping experience.Andrea:I would much rather shop for shoes on Nordstrom where I know that someone actually made a decision to carry each of those products versus on Amazon where it's the wild west and it's just overwhelming. So I think a lot of these retailers that are competing with Amazon and doing well with it right now, I think are doing it well because of the curation. And if you open up those retailers to just unlimited drop shipping with the brands, I think you just lose a lot of that value proposition.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. I mean, it seems like the AMSEC could just come in and just have a curated collection and maybe they're already doing this. This is the Radan collection, this is the [inaudible] and like, you go there knowing what you're going to get, because I thought the same thing. The other day I was trying to find, I don't know, some piece of yard furniture and it was so overwhelming. I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's so many egg chairs. I know the egg chair I want, but there's so many." 90% of them are not egg chairs [inaudible] is and I just went to Walmart and they had the exact what I wanted, which I found through an influencer, or I would just go to West Elm. I just feel like they have the exact selection that I want. I'm not going to mess around, but it seems like they could come in really quick and change that if they wanted to.Andrea:They can't. it's so hard. I mean, they have a one size fits all platform and it's heavily search-based. And I remember, how do you say her last name Melissa, Kathy who used to lead soft lines at Amazon? Kathy Boudin. Well in any case, sorry, if I'm mispronouncing your name, but I remember hearing her say, in all hands one time, she was like... They came in and I think Amazon fashion had its best a couple of year run. They really created some curated lists and some storefronts and they started the Amazon Delivers for fashion and I thought it actually was really good stuff. But she said, "It's a thin veneer that we've put over the site." I remember her saying that. It's a thin veneer.Andrea:And once you scratch it, you see just all the assortment and everything that's there and it's overwhelming. I keep a little like goofy quote lists that people on my team say and this guy in my team, Jamal the other day. I can't remember the context, but he said, "If you're going to go shopping on Amazon for a Teddy bear sweatshirt, I'll see you in a week."Stephanie:That's so true.Andrea:I don't remember why someone was shopping for a Teddy bear sweatshirt or what the context was, but it cracks me up because it's so true. I mean, you could spend a week just combing through, even for something super specific like that, a Teddy bear sweatshirt. You could spend a week just coming through this.Andrea:There's this S&L sketch about Netflix, but I highly recommend that you watch because it's like a fake ad for Netflix, but it says, it's the endless scroll. "By the time you get to the end of the scroll, we've added and created new content and so it's the infinite loop." They call it an infinite loop. And Amazon is like that. By the time you get to page 10, they've probably added more assortments. So it's never...Stephanie:Yeah, people are working in the background. "She needs 10 more of these, keep going." Oh my gosh. All right. So I know you guys have a hard stop in a couple of minutes on Clubhouse and maybe I'll even try and join you over there, but I do want to get one last question. Usually I do a quick lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. But for this one, each only get one question because we're on a time crunch. So Melissa, we'll start with you and it'll be the same question. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Melissa:Oh, man. That's a hard one.Andrea:Yeah. I'm glad I get to go second.Stephanie:Andrea already had to do it once on her last episode and it can't be the same answer, Andrea.Melissa:What's going to be the biggest impact to ecommerce in the next year?Stephanie:In the next year. Yeah.Melissa:I mean, we already had COVID so that's what had the biggest impact on ecommerce? I guess, I mean, maybe it's a ripple effective. I'm going to have to say COVID because that has had the biggest impact on ecommerce because it's accelerated it so much with new people especially at different age brackets. The older age bracket is shopping online and so we know the baseline is never going to return back to where it was and it has changed behaviors and it will be accelerated. The other interesting thing, I just notice this when I walk into a beauty store, like in Ulta is that beauty used to be a way better experience in store than it was online. Now it's the opposite. It's way better online.Stephanie:I order from target all the time, just directly from Target because I'm like way better than going in store.Melissa:Because you can have virtual reality, but what's this color going to look like? When I walk into an Ulta, everything's taped down, you can't try on anything. You can't see the format of anything. I don't know how much of that's going to return. I don't think people are going to be very comfortable trying, like picking things up that other people have touched for a very long time. I don't want to.Stephanie:I never wanted to. I never wanted to try lip gloss. I'm like, how many... thank you.Melissa:I think the interesting, and then Amazon announced opening a hair salon where a lot of it is going to be tech focused around what's this color going to look like. Virtual reality of hair color. So I think that Cover Desk has accelerated this complete change in behavior lifestyle. And the other thing is, I don't know if I'm ever going to wear jeans again. I might just wear my VRA joggers to work if I ever go back to an office.Andrea:There's a great YouTube video on how to dress up joggers, that I'll send you.Stephanie:All right. Andrea, you're on the hot seat.Andrea:Okay. I'm going to go with social shopping and live streaming and I don't know if it will be in the next year, but I think it is going to be the biggest disruption to ecommerce because it is going to start taking the transaction or at least the beginning of the transaction off of the ecommerce site and onto social media. I know that I don't have a lot of agreement on this in the industry. A lot of people are like, "Oh, it's going to take longer or like people aren't going to shop on social media," but I'm feeling super bullish on this. And I think it's primarily due to my own behavior, which is that I am almost exclusively buying things that influencers have recommended to me and it's a super clunky experience. You have to go down to the bottom of the YouTube show notes and find the top she had on and it's annoying and I'm still doing it because it's preferable to the endless scroll of Amazon.Andrea:So I really think that that is going to be a huge disruptor to ecommerce and have a big impact on it. Although I was wrong about this once before, I helped start a company, I guess it was like 15 years ago now. It was about social shopping. It would like loud allow it. It was kind of an old version of a screen share before we had screen shares, but it allowed you to shop reseller websites with your friends.Stephanie:That was awesome [crosstalk].Andrea:It took a long time to get it off the ground and we eventually sold it to Nordstrom for their style boards, which is a very different application than what we originally went into the idea with, but I still feel super bullish on this. People prefer to shop together or they prefer to feel like they're shopping with someone in the case of like the curation from influencers or whatever. I'm feeling bullish on social shopping and live streaming.Stephanie:I will 1000% back you up on that because yeah, almost all my shopping behavior comes from influencers and I will go through all the hoops and hurdles to try and find something even through that, dang, like to know it app, which is horrible to work through. You're like, "I'm just trying to find my shirt." And then you're like bouncing around like 10 different apps and it throws you over back to Nordstrom and then you're back again. It's not fun. So I hope that process gets easier.Andrea:I'm a huge fan of taking the screenshot and using Google lens. I don't know if you ever do that.Stephanie:I don't do that.Andrea:If you can't find it, Google lens is... I don't know that that's their intended application, but it's really, useful.Stephanie:It is today. That's great. All right. Well, I really think we need to have a quarterly round table. This is super fun having you both join us and yeah. Where can we find out more about you, Andrea, Melissa? Where can we find about Ideoclick and Pacvue?Andrea:Yeah. Well, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I post and write a lot about ecommerce there or on my website, andreakleighconsulting.com and you can learn more about Ideoclick at ideoclick.com.Stephanie:Melissa.Melissa:Ditto. LinkedIn, you can find me Melissa Burdick there. And then pacvue.com. P-A-C-V-U-E dotcom. Yeah. We'd love to hear from folks or you can find Andrea and I in Clubhouse later this afternoon.Andrea:Yes, four o'clock. After this'll air, after that.Stephanie:Yeah. You guys are giving a preview of this, so, yeah. All right. Thanks so much y'all.Andrea:Okay. Thanks for having us, Stephanie. 

What Albuquerque home buyers should be doing before looking for a home (Transcript Snippet): "Tego: So tell us some of the things that that home buyer should be thinking about before they, they be, let's say even before they start going out, looking at homes what's, what are some of the top things that buyers should be doing right now? Let's, I'll, I'll throw that to you first, Melissa: Making sure that you're working with a local reputable lender that makes it easier to get, make sure you're pre-qualified pre-approved versus qualified. And that basically just means that the lenders taking those extra steps to check your financial qualifications in versus just saying guests, I believe what they said versus actually looking at it and verifying that it is true. It makes you a little bit of a stronger buyer. And then also having some flexibility, if a house hits the market and you can't see it for four more days, you may not make it to that house. Tego: If it's a good house. I mean, median days on market for March was, was four days, which means what was the stat I pulled the other day? It was 65% of the homes in our current market are selling within six days, basically immediately, as soon as they come on the market. And so, so Corey, what other things are you doing to, without giving away any? Corey: I know, I get nervous. Tego: No, we don't mind educating other realtors. We want everybody to be good, but what what other tips would you say for buyers when they're, when they're thinking about getting out there, Corey: Especially when they're first time home buyers, you really want to say put the seatbelt on because we're going to go for a ride because there is a lot of offers that are being put out there and you want to make sure that you're looking out for your buyer. And so when somebody comes in with, you know, 40,000 over cash and no appraisal, when everything looks so good, that may not be the best one for your buyer. So I like to definitely talk to them about the reality and just talk about how exciting it's going to be and how we're going to get there. Tego: Yeah. And I think, you know, preparation and setting expectations is anything. Obviously, we're kind of doing that right now. So, so what are you telling like Corey, what would you actually tell a buyer right now? Let's say you just pick up the phone and somebody, somebody, you know called, called and said, Hey, I'm interested in this house. I want to make an offer. What are the things you're going to be asking them? Corey: Well, I want to make sure first that they're pre-approved with the lender. Obviously we're not going to write an offer without going to look at that house, whether I'm going to be FaceTiming home in that house and going through each room and showing absolutely everything of the home, absolutely closed it. And exactly, and then making a good relationship with the listing agent is extremely important. Tego: Right? Right. You want to, you want to know you want the listing agent to be able to basically pass onto the seller. That's like, look, this is somebody that really wants a house they're really engaged or communicating. Well, you know, they're, they're not just fly by night, Melissa, what other little tips or tricks should, should buyers be thinking about right now Melissa: In this market, they need to have some skin in the game. They need to be willing to pay for inspections, appraisal, home warranty, their closing costs, and potentially even some of the seller's closing costs to make it just that much more of a competitive offer. Yeah. When it's a buyer's market, you could ask for the seller to pay some of your closing costs, but this is just not where we're at, right? Tego: No, definitely not the market we're in right now. And, and you know, we have earnest deposits. We also have this thing called time off market fee, or it's just, the buyer pays the seller to take the home off the market to do their due diligence inspections and so on. I want to just talk about inspections really quick because we're, we're seeing a lot of people thinking well, to make my offer more competitive, I'm just going to waive inspections. So, Corey: Oh no, no. You want inspections. Absolutely. Tego: So one thing you can do, Melissa though, is waive the basically making, asking for, for major repairs. Melissa: You could see, you only want repairs that are safety concerns or lender required repairs because during the appraisal process, if the praiser might call out some dry rot, then that would be, have to be something that would get repaired during that time. But you're not going to ask for the light bulbs to be replaced or whatever the Tego: Well, you know, cosmetic stuff or, or again, you know, we put a new hot water heater because it's end of useful life. Right. You know, whatever that means. So, so yeah, it that could be one of those things that makes your offer stand out is to say, okay, I still want inspections. Right. I want to know what the property is like, but I'm not going to be, you know, asking for, you know, $5,000 in repairs. Right. Once we get to that point. Melissa: And then the other thing is with as many offers as we're getting the seller could say, that's fine. You just asked me for 5,000 in repairs when another offer came in and said that they're not going to ask for any repairs. So yeah, go ahead and try to find another house. Tego: So Melissa, I just want to ask you about sellers because you work with a lot of sellers as well as, as buyers. And what are you telling sellers when you're, when you're listing them or meeting with them to get their home on the market? What are you telling them? What are you preparing them for? Melissa: Well, I just had a house that went active this weekend. We already have so many showings that they are planning to be gone for the weekend. And we're going to review the offers on Sunday. There's over 30 showings and that's just, that can get overwhelming for somebody who's living in the house. Cause you're basically home for 10 minutes and then have to leave again. And especially if there's pets or children plan a little weekend getaway or Tego: Yeah, well, and, and what what's happened with this market, we know, you know, certain homes and certain price ranges, certain parts of town. We know there's going to be multiple people that want to see it right away. Right. And so you can condense all those showings down into a very short period of time. Yes. Yeah. Which is nice. It makes it easier for the seller. They can just do their picnic day Speaker 2: For the buyers. It's wonderful when they have a few days to look at it. So it's not like, okay, I've got 15 minutes to write this offer and hope that, you know, we can get it being able to go into the house two to three times and say, yes, I love this house. And this is going to go to the finish. Tego: That's a really good point, Corey, because people may think, Oh, it's going to be the first one that writes the offer's going to win. It's like, no, that really, you know, we're not seeing that much, most sellers are asking, you know, for, you know, showings like one day and then they'll review any offers that come in the next day. And that's really common now it's not across the board, but just understand we're seeing most of that, but Corey: It's helpful for our buyers for that to happen. Well, Tego: The truth is it's helpful for the seller too, right? Because that way now the, they have, you know, a handful of offers to choose from. And you know, obviously the, the seller's objective is to get the highest and best that's going to close. Right. That's going to close Melissa, let's talk about that real quick. Let's go back to that whole conversation about reviewing offers. If you're on the, on the seller side. Melissa: Yeah. I had a friend, then she was like, Hey, my friend, didn't get a house in the wrote an offer 25,000 above list. And I was explaining that just because it's 25,000 above list, that's not always the best offer. Is it going to appraise? Probably not. If they were already pushing the value. So there's just a lot of other components to an offer than price it's are you offering the sellers to stay in a couple extra days so they can move out on the, you know, slowly and at their leisure, are you waving the repairs? Are you offering above appraised value, but bringing cash to the table? So there's a lot of components and that's where that experience comes to play versus saying, wow, we got an offer 50,000 above. Let's take it. Well, when appraisal comes, that's when there's going to be a crash, right? Tego: Yeah. Yeah. We won't go deep into appraisal right now, but you know, understand that if there's going to be financing involved, there's going to be an appraisal. The appraisal's job is to justify the value to the bank that they're making a safe alone. And so, you know, if they just can't justify that the value is there, even though somebody is willing to pay that price, it's going to be a challenge. It's going to be a challenge. And so, so some people are, well, Corey, you know this right there, they're making offers over list price. And you're going to say what the wave wave the appraisal contingency or up to a certain dollar up to a certain dollar amount. Yeah. So that's one of those other things that we're seeing a lot.

If you mouth breathe, struggle sleeping, snore, or have eustachian tube issues, then check this out! Mouth breathing is linked to sleep disorders, tooth decay, eustachian tube issues, and so much more, what do you do about it? Could the answer be myofunctional therapy? That's what I sift through with Myofunctional therapist Melissa Mugno. In this podcast, you'll learn: Why Steph Curry chews on his mouthguard the way he does Why do we clench and grind our teeth? The importance of breastfeeding on orofacial development What myofunctional therapy is and where it belongs in the healthcare system The two causes of the mouth breathing epidemic and how to tackle this problem How behavior change plays a crucial role in a successful outcome The intersection of physical and myofunctional therapy Why belly breathing is totally overrated The myofunctional therapy intervention process The link between swallowing and eustachian tube dysfunction and TONS more If you are ready to make your upper airway healthy as can be, then definitely check this podcast out. Look here to watch the interview, listen to the podcast, get the show notes, and read the modified transcripts. Learn more about Melissa Since becoming an Orofacial Myofunctional Therapist in 2014, Melissa has improved the lives of hundreds of patients and lectured around the country. Melissa treats patients of all ages suffering from a wide range of conditions stemming from adverse myofunctional habits. Her background as a Dental Hygienist and experience in the fields of Orthodontics and Pedodontics contributes to her success. Melissa works in Las Vegas, NV, and is a Breathe Associate at The Breathe Institute in Los Angles, CA. Her website Show notes Here are links to things mentioned in the interview: Joy Moeller - One of the foundational people in the field of myofunctional therapy. Sandra Coulson - Another foundational person in myofunctional therapy. Myobrace - A possible way to improve teeth position. Dr. Tara Erson - A great dentist in Las Vegas Dr. Hockel - My dentist who is doing my palatal expansion. Dr. Kareen Landerville - She is my go-to optometrist in Las Vegas The Breathe Institute - Where I got my tongue-tie release done. Dr. Soroush Zaghi - The doctor who did my tongue-tie release. AOMT - That's who I took my myofunctional therapy course through. You can peep the review here.  Bill Hartman - Daddy-O Pops himself. My mentor. The Enduring Impact of What Clinicians Say to People With Low Back Pain - A great article that goes into how maladaptive beliefs can manifest.  Modified Transcripts Why Steph Curry chews on his mouthguard Zac Cupples: So, Steph Curry walks into your office, and he asks you, hey, Melissa, why is it that I like to chew on my mouth guard so much? Melissa Mugno: So, the chewing is because of his airway. Zac: Mm-hmm. Do tell. Tell me more. Melissa: So, in sleep dentistry or airway, we've really come full circle to understand that like chewing and clenching, has a lot more to do with a deficiency in the airway than it does anything else. So, there are habits that are created, that actually kind of stimulate the jaw to come forward, and there's a feeling that feels good. It gives us more air, more serotonin overall, and it actually will give you a lot more clarity. Get some good oxygen, you feel better. So that's actually what's happening. So, the chewing couple times you do it, you're like, it feels good, right? Most humans continue to do things that feel good, stop doing things that feel bad. So, please stop doing that. But the thing was, Steph Curry that's quite interesting is he doesn't just chew on it. He doesn't even - more interesting, he flips it out of his mouth and holds it. And what I was saying to you before was, again, I have not worked on Steph Curry so I do not know. This is just me looking at it, I was intrigued by it. My husband brought it up and said, ‘'Hey, this guy's really known for doing this'' and I was interested. I've always thought there was a big sports connection. I started looking at how thick his mouth guard was and I'm like, "oh, it's at least two millimeters, two and a half." One of the things we do, the dentist will do or to help patients that have sleep issues, is they'll actually open up their bite, open up the jaw, so they can't close all the way, which naturally will allow their jaw to come forward, and that does is it opens up the airway and allows for the air to flow easier. So, he's holding it, and he's protruding his own bite and you can see it's literally bringing his jaw forward. I started looking and then I watched some YouTube video and I saw that Forbes I think it was? It might be off one of the bigger publications that did an actual survey or did some type of research of how many free throws that he made when the mouthguard was out versus when it wasn't. He shot significantly better with it in! It was a no-brainer to me. he's breathing better. Oxygen will absolutely get you focused and therefore he is more comfortable. So why wouldn't you keep doing it? Yeah, so now it's become this whole thing. Now, I guess like, tons of athletes do it and I was like, yeah, of course, yes, it protects your teeth, but there's a lot more to it. Zac: But when you're clenching as well, how does that open up the airway then? Because I would think... Melissa: Clenching and grinding are not opening up the airway. It's a side effect of having a reduced airway. I love my analogies. So, I call it the body's fire alarm. And so, it triggers something and what's happening is the body knows it's getting a reduced amount of air, so it acts to check that. It's going to create some type of function, some type of habit to make sure everything's good down there. So, this, the grinding, and I have this little theory that we grind when we're kids because we're carefree and we clench when we're older because we're trying to control it. [caption id="attachment_13634" align="alignnone" width="810"] Grinding, but not like the Clipse :( (Photo credit: Free Dental Photos)[/caption] Zac: Gotcha. Melissa: It seems that way more adults clench than kids and I realized some of my, I mean, it's not absolutely proven, but my adults that grind are usually my cool cats. They just grind it out, let that jaw flow. The adults are like they're trying to control, they don't want that feeling. It's they're trying to control that bite. They don't know why their jaw wants to move. So, I believe the clenching has a lot to do with trying to contro Zac: Prevent it. Melissa: Exactly. It's also connected to the mind--anxiety and all like so much more mental health and stuff like that. I think it's a natural thing that happens as we become adults that we just want to control. Zac: Yeah. Melissa: That control leads to me building some type of subconscious behavior, to take it out on, and activating the buccinators and we're straining out all in here. No nasal breathing. Breastfeeding Melissa: That's one reason why breastfeeding is so important. Yes, it has a lot of cool nutrition value, but one of the coolest things is that happens is it actually teaches you how to breathe and eat at the same time. The tongues pushes the nipple up, and then be able to help extract the milk, and then the baby's actually letting the mom's body know, hey, you got to keep producing. When moms don't produce milk, they automatically assume it's their fault because they have mom guilt. So, then it's like, I just got to make my baby free to be able to eat and stuff. And they think that the formula is doing the trick but what's not happening is that then the bottle goes in, and now the tongue goes down. Zac: Then you can't control the rate at which the liquid is coming in when it's a bottle versus when you're breastfeeding. Melissa: Then nipple companies make it go quicker, the older you get, make it easier, it just flow it in there, no work needed. Then we don't learn how to breathe nasally really young, then problems ensue. Teeth clenching and grinding Zac: From my standpoint, when we see someone clenching or grinding on the PT side of things, usually that's done to restrict available movement. So, you almost make the system more rigid. And to your point when you're talking about who is this it's those type-A people and a lot of times, I forget what book it was where they talked about the chairs in the waiting room of a cardiologist. Melissa: Oh, yes in the armrests. Yeah, because like they're gripping way hard; fight or flight. Zac: Yeah, and maybe it's just to change the pressurization that's going on in the airway. The importance of breathing Melissa: I laugh a little bit, when people will be like, airway dentistry, PT, speech, what has that have to do with it? "I'm like, Oh, yeah. Who needs air?" Oh, we don't have enough research and I just want to be silly and be like, so we don't have enough research on how important oxygen is? Or seeing the interconnectivity of the body? We all heard that elbow bone is connected to the wrist bone song as a kid, right? Zac: Yeah. Melissa: I just paid you to tell me to breathe? I am breathing! Well, I mean, that's left to be decided, right? [caption id="attachment_12187" align="aligncenter" width="250"] Then you end up looking like this guy #gross[/caption] Myofunctional therapy Zac: Well, and I think most people don't even know that your specialty exists; myofunctional therapy. Melissa: I don't know if I'm the best representation of myofunctional therapists. Zac: You're just my favorite. Melissa: Because it's been more about connecting the dots for me and I think myofunctional therapy happened to be a vehicle that I could I drive that allowed me to go to all these places and I don't think that would maybe be the same for most. I think most love the skill and the passion of myofunctional therapy and what it is day in and day on and how to make the exercises better and that one on one with the patient. I love my patients, don't get me wrong but it's more of this bigger thing for me. I like looking at the teeth, tongue, and more. It opens the door to another place. It's probably my ADHD. The beginning of my journey was untraditional. I was an orthodontic assistant for a long time, hygiene, whatever but I ended up not really even practicing all. My real calling was running a business, selling dental stuff, and making sure the patient and being that liaison to connect everything but at the end of the day, what does that mean? It means making sure the numbers and production and collection were good and I was good at that. We had this really amazing pediatric dental program, but we had this hole in our practice. We would get these referrals for kids who we couldn't start because they didn't have all their molars in yet.  How do I make that work? So long story short, I'm from New Jersey, we don't have a very long summer there. And the doctor comes in and he's like hand me this thing and he's like, we're going to go to this course, I'm like, in August in New Jersey, no, thank you, and ended up being a Myobrace course. There was this patient with a class III bite (where maxilla is behind the mandible). These presentations can occur either genetically or because the tongue sits low, pushing the jaw forward instead of the maxilla. The only real way to fix it is to do surgery (or so I thought). Zac: Yeah, a lot of times they'll break the jaw and pull it back. Melissa: Yes. That's a whole other thing. Zac: I had a friend who did that and I didn't know him at the time. He was a coworker and I told him ahead of time, my buddy was like, don't do this. If anything, you got to bring the jaw forward. Melissa: Did you know that? This was before you started doing? Zac: Yeah. Melissa: so, you were already? Zac: Yeah. I knew like a little bit of airway stuff and like some of my earlier things, it was more about using splints to change occlusion. I started with a gelb splint. [caption id="attachment_13637" align="aligncenter" width="375"] Ah, the classic[/caption] Melissa: Really? Zac: Yeah, because my wisdom teeth were still in and I had no truce of movements in the jaw and so we use the gelb to try to get me a little bit extra just for moving perspective but then the fix was to get the wisdom teeth taken out. So, then we went that route. I wasn't really having sleep issues, then but as I got older, it was - Melissa: Well, you did your sleep study show sleep apnea? Zac: No, I got upper airway resistance syndrome. Melissa: I wonder because of your athleticism and all those things that because you – elongation in the sense you did, it would look like you might be more of a sleep apnea patient, but really, you're UARS?  Apparently, you and I are in the same club. Zac: I know right? Melissa: So we had this mom who all three of her boys had an underbite. She challenged us and asked if there was really nothing I can do besides surgery? We ended up implementing myobrace and started to notice some decent changes, but the execution was rough; we didn't know what to look for and how to progress. So, the journey then, long story short, kind of went in that I really started to crave the need of like, okay, who created these exercises? Where did they come from and that actually kind of brought me full circle to Sandra Colson and realizing she was a huge part of working with them. Her husband was an orthodontist, she was a speech therapist, and they were getting amazing results. Learning from her made sense to the cases we had that relapsed. And it was important. I didn't hear tonsils and adenoids so much like we weren't bringing like was sort of doctors doing an orthodontist is doing his you know console, he's usually rattling off stuff, that type of by you know, class one class two, upper post for your class or whatever, convex all the different profiles have any they might say, you know, within normal limits, but I noticed we started seeing WAY more enlarged tonsils. [caption id="attachment_12197" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Tonsils are the bottom read and white spot thingy. Looks like a solid "3" there, Bob. (Photo credit: Spider.Dog)[/caption] My real aha moment was working with this amazing orthodontist who produced incredible smiles. It was my first job assisting, so I didn't know any different, but he used removable appliances, nothing cemented. Zac: Really? Melissa: And we always were doing early expansion, twin blocks maras, we would use anything, everything was removable, prop that bite up, pull it forward, and expand the heck out of it. Zac: Wow. Melissa: Now he - how do I say this a nice way? He had, I guess back then I probably would have called an arrogance. He commanded the room. Right? Like you didn't question. He just carried himself in a way. There was no option but the one he gave. Like if Bobby didn't wear it. Like that's your problem, then you shouldn't make him wear like, so that level of expectation. So why that's important to understand. So, I go through and I remember one day we're in the office and I know nothing, right? Like, I'm just figuring out how to do this. He walks by, and the patients are humble, we do and he's like God, somebody should cut that kid's tongue out of his mouth. It's messing up my teeth. It sounds dramatic but now I totally understand but I didn't. I was like, wow, what a jerk. Right? Like, he doesn't care. So, come all the way full circle, I'm now inMyobrace class, I'm doing it, and it was like this light went off, I was like, oh my gosh, this is what he was talking about. The kid was tongue-thrusting. No matter what he did to that bite, he couldn't close it. Zac: Because the tongue kept pushing on the teeth. Melissa: Yes, that's what he meant. He's like God, that tongue is going to destroy everything. So, he knew it. But the crazy thing is if you go back into his story, he was originally an engineer. He was a mechanical engineer prior. Then after had gotten married, went back in dentistry and became an orthodontist. Essentially, orthodontics is engineering. It's all about force and movement and I think that's what makes most orthodontists very specialized is because they can see things in a different way. With Myobrace, we could take it to another level. Years go by and I go back to school and all those things. And I noticed, almost every orthodontist just cements everything in and they just, I didn't even know you cemented it. It allowed me to basically see all aspects of dentistry, and I needed this whole journey to see it. That myofunctional was the most powerful thing. Oh, that's why the teeth keep relapsing because we didn't address the tongue thrust or we didn't retrain the tongue, we would maybe tell the kid hey, Bobby, try to put your tongue up or we put a habit in there or something. Well, anyone that's ever had a real habit, thought was very easy to overcome, right? Especially if you don't even know why you're doing it. And mouth breathing and tongue posture, I mean, if you're drinking all the time, you kind of know what you're doing is wrong, right? Well, you know what the culprit might be, like this is what's causing this? But if you don't even know that it's wrong to mouth breathe and have a low tongue posture, now I tell you, oh, you have a breathing issue. It's because of your tongue. What? Like how do you do that? How do you fix that? Zac: Especially considering how common mouth breathing is. Melissa: Well look at how it's changed. So, you look in Disney movies, so if you go back to like Snow White, the older ones, all of the characters are lips closed. Zac: Really? Melissa: And now you go to Frozen, she's drooling with her mouth open. Zac: Wow. I never even noticed that but that totally make sense. Like sleeping beauty, was she snoring? Melissa: No, no, lips closed, breathing through. Zac: If you have this epidemic of mouth breathing, and maybe this is where you are realizing the limitations of myofunctional therapy. Just like I have limitations as a PT that's why I talk to you and work with a ton of other people who have skills that I don't. Where myofunctional therapy starts Melissa: In a perfect world, you'd start with breastfeeding. Every baby that's born would address whether or not the baby has a tongue-tie, and has a tongue tie to the new protocols and standards. Unfortunately, the system makes that hard. So now we go out longer and longer. Now, time starts dwindling. So that's in the perfect world, that becomes the standard and protocol. Zac: Interesting. Melissa: Just like, when you have a baby, they come and they check hearing and they've checked all the other stuff, like, we'd want to have the tongue checked as well. I also think we could put protocols in and say what we should all do but I think maybe just the real simple of somebody when they come in and they talk, the lactations will come and I know when I had my first daughter, and they talk about why it was important to breastfeed, they definitely talked about how important it was for connection and they talked about the nutrition value but they didn't tell me that hey, by the way, she might have some breathing issues, she might not be able to latch, she might not be able to really eat, could change the way her diet is, it could change her airway positioning. There is some research out there now that shows that unchecked could send somebody down the road of having sleep issues. Possibly, we know that there's a correlation in connection to ADHD with kids that snore. I wish I would've gotten that information because I did not breastfeed my first daughter. I mean, I have lots of my own reasons, but I don't know I had made my decision but I didn't feel like I was given all the information, right. So, don't we have the right to know everything? So, if we don't educate the parents, how can they make an educated decision? I don't know so I think education is probably the first thing that would make the biggest difference. [caption id="attachment_13638" align="aligncenter" width="600"] Get your knowledge up, yo! (Image by Sasin Tipchai from Pixabay)[/caption] It's all about building these programs, implementations, having standards and I mean, listen, when I first started and it's been like 11 years, 12 years now, and where we are today is leaps and bounds.  But as you grow new issues happening, like places like the breathe Institute, Dr. Zaghi, I mean, the whole industry change from Dr. Zaghi chose sleep, airway, tongue positioning to become his passion and his drive for research. It opened the door for so much. So, I mean, you have all these pioneers that are pushing limits and doing things all the time. Myofunctional therapy is what you guys do, in a way, but in the mouth. So, it's like physical therapy in the mouth. That's really all it is. And I feel like maybe we should also use maybe some of your standards, more to standardize what we do. So maybe I have a question for you and your fam is this. I was just like, I don't know, anyone that ever has had a rotator cuff surgery and then they go, yeah, maybe do PT, maybe not, like I don't know, like, it's not an option, right? Zac: Well, they're doing that for total hips now but sometimes you get a total hip replacement, and they will not recommend physical therapy. Melissa: And can I just be honest, like, is that because they have insurances? Like, where does it come from? Zac: I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know. Melissa: I am sure if we went down that rabbit hole, we could find out. Zac: I have my suspicions. I think part of it is, you know, and in some cases, they're not showing physical therapy as having good outcomes. Melissa: Because it's not quick. You got to put work into it. Zac: Definitely. Melissa: We have to train the tongue just like we do any muscle. You must address the structure, function, and behavior. So, fixing the structure, and not addressing how the structure got there, to me is kind of stupid. like, I don't get it. You have to put in the work. Zac: Yeah, and that's the hard thing because really, any type of major lasting change has to do with a change in behavior of some kind. Melissa: Oh, absolutely. Zac: That is what makes our jobs that much harder as we really have to find ways to induce behavioral changes in the people, when, as humans, we inherently, if we can be lazy, we will and I don't think that's a fault, like a character flaw. It just, it takes work and work takes energy – Melissa: and let's give everybody a break. Be honest, is like what is expected of humans and for us to survive and add some kids in the mix and the house and a spouse and a dog and, you know, podcast and two jobs and or whatever it may be, to level up or do what you needed to get your hustle on or whatever, maybe there's just not a lot of extra time. And then you also are then to do to overcome these lifestyle changes, these behavioral changes that are going to have a Long Lasting structural and functional behavior change require self-assessment, looking in the mirror and taking time to evaluate and understand, oh, wow, I did not realize that was affecting this and connecting those dots. And when that doesn't, so you barely have time to do these basic little exercises that we're doing, and yet, you think you're going to have a behavior change? You worked with my mom. I'm going to use it as an example and my mom's good with this because she doesn't know what she doesn't know. So, she came out and she pretty much just wanted to have surgery. Yeah, that was her goal. I mean, she was excited. Now here's me, and I'm like, you even know why you're going to have the surgery? So, tell me exactly what's going to change after the surgery? And I was like, No, no, you're going to go see my buddy. And my mom is - she knows what I do for a living. She's seen me lecture. My mother's gotten some decent gifts of any little success I have. So, you would think she's like, of course, I'll go see your friend and she found out you're out of network. And she's like, Oh, he's not covered by my insurance and I was like, and that's exactly why you are going to see him. I was going to pay for it but think about that mentality, and I'm like, Oh, my God, it's touching nothing and then so now she comes back. She's like, wow, how amazing. I saw her really, you know, try and working and she started to feel better. She's like, it's so weird. I feel better. What do you mean, it's so weird? I get like, so here's somebody and I'm using this as an example. Like, it is my mother. How is she not getting and yet when something successful happens, it's like, I wonder without, what do you mean I wonder without? She knew but it was like, she almost had to be reminded. It's because, in her mind, the only thing that was going to fix her is if you did the surgery, or whatever it may be, right. So, if you can play on that, like not to go into her stuff, but I feel like isn't that across the board some of the stuff we're dealing with? Zac: Absolutely. Well, it's because it requires you to have some autonomy and you to have some ownership and almost intrinsic motivation to better yourself. It's within your control. Melissa: And most people don't want to believe anything they're doing or what they could do could better it because then it's on them. Zac: Or something that they're doing is causing it. [caption id="attachment_13639" align="alignnone" width="810"] But I'm not the problem. (Image by S. Hermann & F. Richter from Pixabay)[/caption] Melissa: I could easily change destructive habits, but it made me struggle having empathy for people that couldn't do that. Where does myofunctional therapy belong? Melissa: I think it belongs in lots of different areas: in speech therapy, dental offices, and physical therapy. I mean, it's everywhere. I mean, it should be bodyworkers, there are so many people because it affects - it's part of the whole thing if your mouth is weak, and your tongue is out, your mouth opened, you're going to be mouth breathing with the oxygen is going to change, you're not breathing through your nose, it's going to cause sinus issues, you're going to be more likely to have sinus stuff. It's going to affect your face; it's going to affect your cranial facial development, and then that can affect not that I don't know, but neck, the shoulders, your posture. Mom's will be like, if so if your teeth are off like this, I was like, so how's this constipation? And the dad's like, well, now you fix constipation. I was like, Oh, well, I mean, if you can't chew your swallowing whole, so hard for you know, go potty. And the mom was like "oh my god, he goes to the bathroom three times a week when that happens." It's really hard. I'm like, Oh, yeah, you can't? Yes. Yes. No contact back there. He's trying to so texture food is going to change the way he swallows the food. How quick he eats, how slow. I mean, it's like cutting scissors that don't line up. And he doesn't even know to tell you. Hey, Mom, I don't have any occlusion. I can't chew that meat. And we're like, eat your food, Johnny better eat your food, close your mouth. And literally, he's like, I can't breathe, I can't chew but I got to do it all so I'm just going to swallow it and real quick, get that down. It's going to make it a lot harder for us to digest food and then digesting now sleep, right? Now that's going to affect other things, I mean, long term and I can't imagine that. Me talking about this, that we can't go connect us that people that end up in your position with you are suffering from my stuff. And the people I see that are suffering from this need to be seeing you. Right? So, it's important to keep the connection going. Zac: Yeah, well, with that, the tongue is one component of the airway and, we've kind of talked about this a little bit where, you know, with you, you kind of specialize in the airway that's more upper whereas a lot of the PT stuff that I do is more airway lower. So, you really have to, I think, blend all of that in order to elicit or to maximize respiratory capabilities, which has wide-ranging effects. You know, we talked about vagus nerve, and you look at all the influences that I have across our physiology and - Melissa: anything when you say like your family or people I mean, that's, that's your place. You guys are all cool with that. So, the fact of like, your people and my people, while we haven't all sat down had dinner, like, you know, I mean until today. That's important because I think there's so much, I should learn from you and you should learn from me. And I hope one day that there is a course, that helps us all connect the dots and my stuffs included in your education and your stuffs vice versa, right? Like, the idea is to up the ante and build the specialties, and really help teach the students how to connect the dots. It shouldn't be something you have to learn once you get out of school. Zac: Yeah. 100%. Melissa: That should be taught in the beginning. Zac: Yeah, it's almost like you need a different profession that combines it all or you need a team and this is kind of where I think you are. You are realizing that you are one piece of a greater - Melissa: Oh, yeah, I mean, I've known that. That's always been but sometimes you got to do all the work to prove that you need help. Zac: Absolutely. Melissa: You got to show where you're falling weak and collaboration is everything. But with collaboration, also will bring some other hurdles. Patients, like we were saying before, don't like hard work. Well, they also don't like being told they have to go see nine people. Zac: Yeah, no, I and that's an issue that I've ran into with some people and I think I struggle with me, referring people into this space is, when I have that conversation of well, you might need a few different things, that's hard. I even just look at like myself, I've seen, I've been to Lincoln, Nebraska, and then that took me to getting wisdom teeth pulled in Phoenix, Arizona, and then that took me to getting the roto rooter done in Memphis, Tennessee. And then now I'm in San Francisco getting this and then working with you and it's just and then Zaghi cutting my tongue. Melissa: How do you build the ultimate practice? So, the question is, does that practice look like an airway-focused dentist? and you know, this airway focus dental thing has become like, who is this person? I mean, I hope that one day, it's just all dentists, because it's not about maybe others you know, they'll be Specialists of who does what technique, but the idea of, that's how you treatment plan. So, they actually, when you go get your six-month cleaning, it's discussed of what your airway looks like, or, hey, if you're mouth breathing, you can cause more decay, tell me how many of most people know that? When people are like, if you mouth breathe, your mouth is dry. If your mouth is dry, you have no saliva, you have no saliva, no antibodies, you have no antibodies, you have nothing to protect your teeth, you're going to get more decay. [caption id="attachment_13640" align="aligncenter" width="354"] But can you nasal breathe tho? (Image by Klaus Hausmann from Pixabay)[/caption] You can brush your teeth all day long. Yeah, like, where somebody else who has tons of saliva, and, you know, it goes like, so these are things like, we should always treatment plan to, hey, your tongue is not sitting where it's supposed to, have you noticed this? And not wait till it's to the point where now it's like, right now you mouth breathe, you snore, you this, you have to go and drop, you know, I've seen my money insurance doesn't cover. I mean, that's a shock to the system. So hopefully that will come to a point of that. But for now, seeing groups come together and it might have a PT, it has a myofunctional therapist, it has a dentist, a body worker, but now it's also a lactation consultant. We could go across the board. I hope that we'll be there and hopefully, we'll have these great little medical many places that can offer all of that, but you got to get your group, you got to get your crew. And I feel like also as a collaborative group, you got to talk finances with each other. What are your patients looking at? What's it going to cost for one patient to see everybody?  Already, how many people know that? Like, if you refer, what's the end of the day out of pocket? I don't know. I've always been curious. I always think of that, like, so if I'm going to send the nine people. I think it'd be like, thank you for the $50,000 journey. I don't know. Zac: Yeah, that's quite conservative. Melissa: Yes, and I've just seen because those are uncomfortable areas, right? You don't want to talk to your fellow colleague and be like, what you charge them. But what do you think about us working together? These are awkward conversations and I don't know if they're realistic. I don't know but I feel like no one ever says it, no one ever wants to talk about it. Zac: Yeah, but it can be a big barrier to, like, if you know so and so's going to charge 10k for an appliance and that's not in the cards for someone because they're on Medicaid or something. Melissa: It's just not in the cards. Zac: Yeah, you have to find a different avenue for that person to get better. Melissa: And I mean, like, again, going back to the things like what is wrong with you? What do you do? Well, you know, money. Zac: It's an unfortunate thing with our system. Melissa: Yeah, but let's be honest, I think even in other systems, do you think they're really addressing this? Zac: Probably not. Melissa: I have to say, I don't think there's any system that's looking at truly getting into what's really going on, which I'll tell you, in all systems do. I think I could sit here and tell you that if we were more aware of some of these breathing issues, we would see a decrease in multiple things like heart issues, Alzheimer's, I mean, we could go down the line. It's about more than fascia Zac: I think all of the tissues adapt and accommodate to ensure our survival and I think if you isolate it to one specific thing, then you're probably missing the boat. And not only that, it's like, say you do a fascia treatment, so you mean to tell me that nothing else changed you and you were able to isolate fascia, you were able to bypass the skin? Not create a ton of changes within the muscle. Melissa: Well, you literally had to go this whole journey to get there but nothing else was affected? Zac: Yeah, you can't isolate the tongue, because you're probably going to also have influences on the teeth, the nasal airway, it all works together. Melissa: And I think from your community and your family to ours, most people, and let's just get medical professionals out of here, let's just talk about our patients, the glaze people, right? You know, if you tell somebody like there's something that's connected to their toe all the way up to their tongue, they're like, no, and I'm like, No, really? Because we sometimes also forget, most people have no concept of what the body actually does, or how it actually is affected. Like, really, I find that to be - they have no understanding how if I walk one way with one shoe funny for a long period of time already, that's going to affect something. That helps us try to explain a little bit easier to patients, how come the tongue position can affect other things? Yeah. So, learning where other systems would only make it better for us to talk about it. Coaching breathing mechanics Melissa: Let's talk about breathing. We're always hands-on, like, when you breathe, you need diaphragmatic breathing, right, like you want to breathe in. And so the beginning, we kind of tried to keep it simple for kids, it was just like a very basic of, you know, put your hands on your stomach and chest, sit up straight and don't let your chest move. Because it's really hard to do if you slouch. So, it just became like, sit up straight, shoulders back, head up, because it felt like, at least opened it. But you would actually kind of had said, you know, it's not always about sitting like that. So, what would be that something to kind of show them that we can help each other? What would be a way that you would fix that? Zac: From my standpoint, when I look at that, you have to look at the actions that should happen at the rib cage. So, the rib cage should move as you breathe in and breathe out because if you think about it, when I take a breath of air in the tissues are filling our lungs, so the rib cage has to make room for the lungs and so it has to stand in all directions so we have these actions at the rib cage called the bucket handle, which would be lateral expansion, pump handle, which is anterior and superior expansion. And then you have posterior expansion. But I think what you were trying to do with the belly breath is trying to mitigate an accessory muscle breathing strategy, where I'm lifting the rib cage up as a unit with muscle such as the scalene, the sternocleidomastoid. We don't want that. I want the rib cage to stretch out. Melissa: Yes, but you would normally want to be more about explaining how it's rounded out and how you want to see it go like here and there. But we're keeping and trying to be simple because oftentimes, I most of all, say like take a deep breath and it looks awful. Zac: Well, when you demonstrated that you emphasize a lot of inhalation. Most people can't get an effective exhale. Melissa: Okay, yeah. Zac: So, you have to get as much air out as humanly possible and then guess what? So, if I am just doing a belly breath, I'm not getting any expansion of the rib cage. Well, you can think of it as like my mentor, Bill Hartman, he has a toothpaste analogy. So, if I take a toothpaste tube, and I squish the top of the toothpaste tube, I get all of the toothpaste going into the bottom. Well, the same thing happens with belly breathing, when I take a breath of air in and I do not allow expansion of the rib cage, I have greater downward pressure into the abdominal contents. So, the diaphragm will actually descend to the point where it's flat, which creates a negative pressure environment in the thorax, which causes compression, too much outflow into the abdominal contents, which is the same thing you see in sleep apnea. But now - because what is that? I have a negative pressure environment that I can't maintain the integrity of the upper airway, it collapses. When you're coaching belly breathing, you're creating the same environment, but now you're doing it in the lower part of the airway. Melissa: Wow. Zac: So then now I have a mismatch of intra-thoracic and intra-abdominal pressure. Melissa: So that is 100% correct. So, where we struggle with this is, most people I've noticed, I say breathe and they really do not know what the feeling is, like they really do not understand what it means to truly get a diaphragm out or like to really get that because that, like you see it in their eyes like to calm them down. So, they can't feel that difference. So sometimes, the way we kind of were like not saying, it's being picked from different kind of systems, and that we've been trained on, we got to get them to at least feel it before you can critique it. And that the more the deeper that professionals getting, is, how do we evolve it, to also get them to feel it, but do it properly to promote positive and like, also children versus adults is going to be very different. How we do that, how we teach it, how long that habits been into play. And I am hands down. If you can't get the breathing, right. I think miles doesn't have a chance to stand. So, to me, breathing has always been the biggest, has been a huge part and I have a lot of theories of like people, there are two ways that you end up with mouth breathing and one is like, there was something wrong with a structural situation with the nose early on and then that created low tongue posture because you had to breathe through your mouth. Or Yes, you had a tongue tie, right? And that tongue tie was tethered. You could have been breastfed, but it was further back. Tongue keeps pulling down and then eventually just slowly opens and then you start to mouth breathe anyway and then you stop breathing through the nose and then that changes the way the air comes in, and now the nose becomes a face ornament, and it's just hanging out and therefore, it's very hard for people. They think they're breathing through their nose, and they're not. And you know, the ones that are like [whoo] like, though, like, you put like one of the boom, boom sticks. You're trying to incentivize some type of nasal breathing. When you're stuffy, you should be doing nasal sinus rinses, 24/7 trying to force yourself to clean out your own sinus, but we go, Oh, no, I'm stuffy. Okay, you know, that's - Zac: It's not normal. Melissa: It's not normal. You need to breathe more. I'm sick. I'm taping my lips up even more, forcing myself to breathe and it's hard, don't get me wrong, but you got to push through it and you will absolutely always overcome something sinus-wise; a cold or something quicker if you force more nasal breathing. Treating adults with myofunctional therapy Zac: Yeah. So then with your treatment process, why don't you talk us through the - And I know it's going to be case-specific and I hate protocols. Like that was one of my - it was a little bit of a beef with I think when you're first learning some of this stuff is, they say, first, you do this, then you do this. You do this, do this and I think there are some case-by-case variants. Yeah. I mean, we're doing weird stuff with me. But say someone comes to you, and we'll say it's an adult, because most of the family - hopefully now that you know, we're talking about some of the stuff that. Melissa: you'll see with kids too Zac:  if an adult comes to you, and let's say they have these issues, they can't attain a palatal tongue posture, they have difficulty breathing through their nose, they have the gamut but it's not a surgical case and maybe it's someone that could just - they just need you. Melissa: They just need myofunctional therapy. Zac: They just need you. Where do you start? And maybe we could talk into your assessment and Melissa: So, I always have to be like, well, I do myofunctional therapy very different right off the bat than most. I only do it in conjunction with dentists. I mean, almost 5% of I mean, there's a couple of patients, I'm close with that end up knowing they're going to go into an appliance because they're going to somebody, but I very rarely not do that. If I could get tongue space, probably tattooed on me. I would. For me, that's my objective. If you don't have enough space, I mean, anyway, if you have a lion and the little cat cage, yeah, doesn't really matter what we do. Right. And so, I get really frustrated sometimes. I don't know, I guess also, I don't love to do things myself. I mean, you'll get changes and there's always benefit, like even myself, if I didn't do myofunctional therapy, I probably would have a way worse situation than I have. The therapies done quite well. I should use myself as an example and I struggle with space, but because at least I have tongue strength, I am able to hold at least what I have so I don't collapse so much and it's funny a CBCT scan, if you look, my tongue is like flat up, because I have like a little cocktail straw. I have like three, four millimeters in my airway. It's really tight. And so, I don't have an option. My tongue can't go back. I mean, game over, right? Zac: Yeah, low resting tongue posture. Melissa: Yeah. And so that's why I can nasal breathe because I had no choice. Right? It was like, this is what it was going to be because it felt so much in my throat. So, you can do myofunctional therapy, just to be able to abstain from what you have if you don't want to fix it, right and so, what would be the base? If someone is really good at nasal breathing, they can breathe, that's fine and keep their lips closed and you can do an easy test like, someone just puts a popsicle stick or they hold and just breathe through their nose for two, three minutes and they're able to do that, then yeah, I would definitely do some therapy and starting off with just doing tongue, just getting to understand where the tongue supposed to be sitting and then from there, you kind of go into being able to move the tongue and then compensation comes into play of can we separate the jaw from the tongue? Because that's when we really start to work the tongue muscles themselves because a lot of people think they can do things with their tongue but really, their jaws were doing it for them. And I mean, I'm no way in speech, but I always like, I asked parents all the time. I'm like, does he mumble and they're like - we'll say, well, do they have any speech issues? Or even adults? Oh, no, I go. Someone ever told you, you, you mumble Oh yeah, all the time. It's kind of a speech issue. Because the mumbling is if you do not have a lot of range, you'll notice someone will say like 123 their upper lip, like the inadequate movement of the upper lip because the lower jaw just kind of - well the tongue is down so you have to bring it up, right? So, they reduce tone. So, they'll talk quicker to get it out or they'll change the words because they're modifying. Humans are amazing. We're going to figure it out. So those are areas that we might work in just to help you build awareness and then body scanning right? What does that feel like? Does that affect your neck? Do you feel that down in your back? Does it feel weird? Like, where do you notice it? Because if I don't build awareness so that you feel the difference of where the tongue is? What's going to keep you in the long run? But I got frustrated with some cases that I wasn't getting better. In 2017 I was pregnant and watching everything Dr. Zaghi is putting out and what's this guy up to, whatever and I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to get this guy, I asked this guy, what about these patients? So, I actually started paying for consults for all my patients, just so I could get on this. So, I could introduce the patient, present it and ask him why they can't go any further. I know the joke is that eventually what I was like, sorry, on staff, like, Hi, like, I was just being me and I'm presenting patient and that and now I felt like oh, my God, someone was finally able to say like, oh, the tongue, he's tied, etc. And now I had somewhere to send them. And I was like, ah, and now listen, the tongue tie got released and we were able to overcome it but the ones we couldn't, which, unfortunately, were more I shouldn't say my patients were, I was lucky enough, I already had the tool in my arsenal. There was expansion going on, right? Like I was working with doctors so if it was a BWS, which I know - Zac: What's a BWS? Melissa: So BWS is a Bent Wire System, which comes from the company Myobrace and they use BWS, and then they have you wear the brace over it to kind of help do with [unsure word 1:06:10] The theory was to kind of do with the crows that did right, so. So whatever may be Crow's out all of these different things. I was lucky enough that I had somebody that we knew we needed to make t space like that's how we were showing that we were getting results. Or then if I would have somebody that would get good expansion, then they would relapse. That's how long I was keeping them so that they were relapsing with me. Because I was on this journey, I needed to know where is going. So then now, I was able to show Dr. Zaghi like, okay, we've done this, we've expanded, we've done, and now this has happened. And like everything happens for a reason. That's how I was able to really so grateful for that situation. So now I was able to see, then you had that tongue-tie release in there, huh? Zac: Because it really takes a team. Melissa: It does. Yeah, and I know I have a hard time being like I could do the therapy, but we don't have enough space so I don't know. But that's me, right? There are a lot of therapists do it. And then they only need tongue ties in there to expand and that's fine. This is just my vehicle and that's what I saw. And I really do think we now finally are like getting into a community. I mean, people are talking about tongue space more and we're more aware of the structure and that you need to be able to withhold all this, be able to have a place for the tongue, the tongue is able to be somewhere so that it can be in the right position. So, it is more and that's what's uneasy about it. And then you know, they're finally in a good place, they've had the release, they go home and now they have anxiety, they're depressed, I don't know, they get divorced, whatever their life comes into play. And we didn't really get into the fact of what the behaviors are, and then they come creeping back, or they get a little new doggie that they're highly allergic to, and they don't realize it and they're mouth breathing again. So, the body or they're doing you know, they have neck issues, or I don't know all these different things, I feel like you also have to bring that aspect into it, and you have to be able to address all of it. So, the treatment planning is complex so most of the time, when a patient comes, I feel confident, I'm able to quickly say to them, okay, this is what you present with, I know your low tongue posture, you have this, this is where I would go, I would start with probably looking to get some type of an appliance. Let's open up that bite work on that structure. While we're doing that, let's work on nasal breathing but while you're getting your structure fixed, let's work on nasal breathing. Let's see how you feel comfortable getting your lips closed. Seeing how that becomes comfortable and then once that structure is done the right thing, then kind of come in, let's bring that tongue up, start noticing where the tongue spot is, and then kind of prepare for the tongue release. Because if I'm setting a patient up, I don't want them to go get the tongue release done until they have tongue space. So then now, I'm going to focus on that, I'm going to keep it pretty structured, there was that tongue ties done. Now we go in and we do some swallowing techniques and we really kind of bring it all around, and hopefully now they're able to keep it and now they don't have their teeth moving and they're not functioning as much. And if they do move a little bit, they know why they have the tools in their toolbox to go back and do the therapy again and do things on those lines, Zac: Which again, gives them a locus of control. So then is it fair to say nasal breathing, space. Step one has to have that, range of motion, I'm assuming would be second and a little bit of awareness of the palatal tongue posture, because I would think if you don't have the range of motion available, it's going to be really tough to attain that position. Melissa: Well, so right if I go back, so I don't know for me range of motion. Okay, so it depends on so, like, we have four grades of tongue-tie, right? Then a two-step release might be the first thing to do. Zac: Interesting. Melissa: Yeah, just get up there. We got now we got to just do that. Then once we do that therapy, work on nasal breathing, work on the structure, then we go back and prepared for the functional frenuloplasty. Zac: Gotcha. Because I have a client who I'm working with right now, he's potentially a candidate for a second step. But so, they do anterior first, and then the posterior tongue tie second. Melissa: So, the concept of why the therapy is so crucial for a tongue tie release, specifically functional for any of us, is because they need to be able to do certain exercises, certain motions and movements, and hold it during the procedure. So, they're numb during the procedure so, they better have really good muscle memory, and know how to do these things, to hold it when you're numb, right. So, you better be able to do a cave suction really well and also, that's going to help build muscles. So now when the doctor goes in, and does that release, you're going to see the separation between fascia, you know, fascia fibers muscles, it makes it a lot easier for the surgeon to get in there and see that difference. Zac: Absolutely. Melissa: Now anyone that's ever worked for a doctor, anything we can do to make their jobs easier is always a win. A win for the patient, win for the doctors, win for everybody. So that's what's crucial for that beginning step. So, if you're so tied, right, anteriorly, which is a lot of people that are out there that will say, Oh, I had a -you know somebody that had a tongue tie release 20 or 30 years ago, I promise you, they still need another one. Because that was a snip. They saw that it was so tongue-tied, they couldn't move it. So, they were just doing what we do with the first step to prepare for the second one. I mean, that's how I look at it. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, look, I was like, Yeah, we got to give you enough rope so we can at least get you to move in, so we can get you to hit this, hit the tongue spot, and be able to then hold that cave, workup, get a little muscle tone, be able to, work there. So, we can get some identifying and be able then to get you ready for healing. And also, it's a lot easier to do therapy exercises for healing, when you already know them and you've gotten muscle memory when you're sore and in pain than it is to learn them when you're in pain. So, I'm like, Well, why would you not do it before the procedure? Because who wants to be learning something when they're also sore? and it's crucial afterward. Once the sutures off, you're doing therapy, I mean, every four hours, six hours. You know you've regimented; you don't want that stuff to reattach. You want to keep that moving. I mean, you want to use this amazing moment, and ability to - now your range of motion being so much wider, you want to continue and that's not going to happen. You can see it become worse, tethered up if they don't have a really great regimen and they didn't have good muscle tone to begin with. Zac: Yeah, and that's something that even in PT, like, if we have someone who's going into surgery, we try to see them - in a perfect world, you would see them pre-op for the exact same reason. Melissa: Yeah Zac: It makes it so much easier on the backend. Melissa: Of course. Zac: They have those concepts in place. Melissa: It's not new. And most of it all, it goes back to the implementation and trying to make sure people understand it. I think that's going to be a battle but I think more conversations like this, more people using their mind and opening up and finding unique places to educate patients. We talk about something earlier, but not to go into I but I believe people are a little bit - I'd like to give them more credit than we do. I think people are able to make decisions. I think we make a choice, unfortunately, to choose what information pertains to them and what they need. Because we don't think that they have the ability to always maybe make the right decision for themselves. I don't know. I feel like all people, this just should be spoken out. They should know, every option. Hey, if you choose not to do it once you've been given all the information. Okay, cool. It's your choice. I have an issue when you weren't presented with the side effects if you don't do it like I'm sure if I was going and having that hip. If no one came in and told me Hey, listen, okay, you don't you know, you couldn't do therapy. You could do PT prior, you know, pre and post. This is the benefits, whatever. If you don't, you know this can happen, this can happen, this can be a little bit more challenging, not everybody, but it does happen, and you truly set the expectations and limitations of both, let the patient choose. Once they're educated, they know, hey, do whatever you want. I have an issue that it's not. We don't do that. Educating patients on airway without inducing maladaptive beliefs Zac: Yeah, which makes sense, because then you're not making them an informed consumer. The thing that I struggle with, and I see this a lot, and I especially see this online is sometimes when you give someone a story, and you give them the doom and gloom of what could happen, a lot of times the maladaptive beliefs that they develop from that, become an issue. So, there was this article, this guy was named Darlow, and I forgot the name of the title is I'll link it in the show notes. And he had this thing that this patient says basically interviewed all these patients based on what doctors had told them. Okay. And I don't know what the doctor specifically said but the patient's interpretation of what he said was, he was so afraid of back pain. He was so afraid of the disalignment of his back that he thought that his spinal cord was going to sever and that led to tons of anger, fear, anxiety, lack of movement, and things like that. And I especially think in this domain, because it is a huge rabbit hole and there are some scary procedures that some people may have to go down like, sure. We're talking about appliances and myofunctional therapy and things of that nature but what if you got someone who needs the MMA surgery? How do you balance not instilling fear and maladaptive beliefs that this is, like, if I don't do this, my life is screwed versus informing them? Melissa: This is what I know, I'll just live with it. And I mean, I truly understand that. So, I said to you like I have a formula for an airway. I do this for a living. I'm aware of what I should do, right. Like, do I know that I should have surgery? It's scary and I know, from the best. So now the other side, right? It's human. Like, I'm going to try this first one, it's a scary thought. And let's be honest also I go into like, do I have it in me to do, you know, my own insecurity of will I follow through? Will, I get it done? Will it truly make a difference? And I think it's just like, I'm always high energy. I'm always like, appear, right? My fight or flight? That's become part of my identity. It's who I am. Is there something inside of me that also scares me from it? Because I'm scared of who I'd be without it. I mean, I'm going a little dark here and a little deeper, but it's, I mean, it's my truth. Zac: Oh, or sure. Melissa: And I play in my own head all the time. I'm like, I can't do it this because my kids like, you know, and I can make every excuse not to do it because at the end of the day, it's huge and it's a leap of faith. I think I respect that and I hope that nobody thinks that anyone's saying it's easy, and it's one shot and, and do it but the question is - then the other comes back to is, maybe I just don't think it's affecting my life that bad. Yeah. Yeah. Even though I statistically notice. Zac: You know what you don't know. Melissa: But the other thing is, you know, maybe I'm comfortable like this, I'm not ready to, I haven't hit my place of like, I can't do this anymore. This is no law. I can't live like this. Right. So, I'm willing to go do that. Where I think like, in some ways, like, those are extreme cases, right? But, you know, kind of just go away. Like, let's go to rotator cuff surgery, right, like, so that's not something, my arms like I can't move it, I don't want to have a choice. That's bottom. I got to fix it.  Well, I'm almost saying like, what are we doing? Why are doctors not - Of course, PT or - Like, why would that not be automatic? I mean, that's part of it. I feel like to say that if that's not the standard, that's scary. And I think things like you've had braces three times. Do you want to try something different. So, you've had braces three times and you also have sleep apnea and so there's a lot of things that have now are coming in your way that you'll pay for this, this, and this. Hey, do you want to also address these other issues? Then maybe we get through there? Just those kinds of conversations. Zac: Yeah. You have to give people options. It's funny you when you're mentioning the identity stuff because I totally run into some patients who will forever be a patient because that is who they are. That is their identity and that's who they become. Yeah, you do have to wonder like if I take that away from them, so your high energy. Well, if you – you get the chill pill and I think it was in Mark Manson's book, not the subtle art of not giving a Fuck but everything is, he talks about - I just read it the other day. Oh. In order to change who, we are, we have to mourn who we were. Yeah. It's such a profound quote and it's true. It's like some people just might not be ready to go through that grieving process of changing those things, those dark things that are about you. Melissa: Well, if you're anxious, you're living in the future. If you're depressed, you're living in the past and if you're content you're in the now. It's hard. Mental health is a big deal. Zac: In terms of like it being the X factor, or maybe the thing we're not addressing. Melissa: Actually, it's personal. So, that's like my connection to certain things. So, I had a patient, an office I was at and I walk into the room, they had the scan up. I mean, the kid has no airway. I mean, never mind, forget the cranial facial stuff and forget the teeth, who cares about the teeth? I like turned around and I was like, hey buddy, he was nervous. He's all these things anyway. So, I was like, great. I got the assistants taken out of the room and I said so any behavioral issues like the mom starts crying. I mean, anger issues, can't calm down,  bathroom issues, can't eat and I'm like, I want to like, just cry, right? Because I'm like, this is a kid in my mind, this young man and the mom is like, she thinks it's just who he is, right. Like, you know, we have one bad seed because I'm telling you, I'm telling her things and she's like, so that has to do with that and like with a little bit of disbelief, right? Like, yeah. Right lady. No joke, the father was in there, he had a mask on, new design and I brought up one thing, I said, so is he really good in like science? And then all of a sudden, like he's reading and comprehension seems to be lower and the mom's like, yeah, he gets stronger grades. Then I asked if he keeps rereading the same page and the dad like takes on his thing, he goes, why he gets that from me. Dad pulls down and he has this crazy deep bite. And I go, I know he gets it from you. I agree. You just have the same habits. And he's like, what? I go, yeah. I go, you both, like you live in fight or flight. Like you just, I just start reading out loud. It will change the game. His dad was like, no way. So the mom's like, I go watch it. So the kid came back and we gave him one little snippet of thing. We told him to read it to himself. I gave him three questions. and read it aloud. He was able to get it! Zac: Essentially recruited another sensory system. Melissa: Absolutely. Zac: Well, and then that goes into, and I don't know if you've ever checked this with those folks. Like if they have any visual issues along with that. Because a lot of times - Melissa: I got to fix it, I'm fixing bathroom issues. Now I got to fix my eyes. Zac: Absolutely. Yeah. Which Dr. Kareen, if you're tuning, I got you! Melissa: Okay. I'm sending it right. I mean, and I'm so sorry, not that I don't know how important the visual aspect is. Zac: Well, to me, I think this all relates to airway because if I have to assume a particular head posture, well, that's going to change where my eyes are looking in space. And so, you could potentially see some changes in the shape of the eyes potentially, or the focusing type stuff or eye teaming. Melissa: Well, we look at it when they, when they - Well, actually I always look like I can. They always like my little last, super what do you call it? Like my tarot card thing is I'll walk and I'll be like, Oh, so you only true on the left side of your face, where I looked in their mouth. And they're like, what? I'm like, well, one side of your face is stronger than the other. I can tell you only work those muscles, but also like the moment you bring somebody up and expand them out their eyes, all of a sudden open up. because they were squinting like this. And so, I guess, yeah, I knew the eyes were part. Everything's affected. Eustachian tube dysfunction So, let's just wrap on the one last thing. I mean, now we've done ears, we've done eyes and mouth. So, kids that have had tubes in theirs. Okay. Kids that have tubes in theirs can't swallow, that's why they can't clear their eustachian tubes. So they have a swallowing issue. That's why it keeps building up fluid. Zac: Yeah, so wait, you're going to have to unpack that a little bit because this is - so if someone has you stationed to dysfunction, how does that relate to the swallow? So are you saying that - Melissa: So, normally what happens? Right. So, swallowing and I am not a hundred percent, but like if the idea of the concept of the swallowing is what helps clear it. Like it helps the fluid run through. So, the concept of like, if you can't swallow, so if your tongue's low, so swallowing for anyone who doesn't know, right. So, the tongue should be up, you should be able to swallow with minimal facial movement. The tongue should just go up,

SEASON 2: EPISODE 8 Film critic Melissa Anderson talks about the correlation between smoldering internal rage and a lighthearted use of exclamation marks. ABOUT THE GUEST Melissa Anderson is the film editor of 4Columns and a regular contributor to Artforum and Bookforum. ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE'S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund.  Producer: Devon Guinn  Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue  Mixer: Andrew Litton  Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver  Theme Song: Jeff Hiller  Website: Itai Almor Media: Justine Lee Interns: Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse Kimotho, Rachel Wang Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Nick Rymer, Sue Simon, Maddy Sinnock, Jonathan Taylor TRANSCRIPTION NEIL GOLDBERG.: Hello, I'm Neil Goldberg, and this is SHE'S A TALKER, coming to you today from the Lower East Side. Today's guest is film critic Melissa Anderson, but first I'm going to find someone here on the street to talk to.  We're doing a podcast, and we just need people to know... Oh, okay. Sorry to bother you. Would you have a minute for a podcast, just to read this card into a microphone?  REMY: Why not? NEIL: Thank you. I love the "why not?" REMY: What podcast? NEIL: It's called SHE'S A TALKER. It's built off a collection of thousands of these index cards doing interviews with people. Uh, but now we're playing around with having people on the street read them. Would you mind?  REMY: Okay. When people sing out loud to themselves with headphones, wanting to be heard.  NEIL: It's often a cutesy thing. You know, someone's on the subway. They got their headphones in. They're singing. They're pretending like they don't know they can be heard, but they can be heard. Do you know what I'm talking about there?  REMY: I have absolutely done that. It was another version of me years ago, if that helps.  NEIL: Tell me about that version of you.  REMY: A version that was, really wanted to be heard, man. I mean, everyone really wants to be heard, but especially like I had just moved to New York. Like when you find those little secret ways where you don't even admit to yourself that you are reaching out. It's, it's a little bit of a lifeline.  NEIL: Can I ask what your name is?  REMY: Remy.  NEIL: Remy. Would you do one more card or no? This, okay, great. Hang on. I'm going to find another one.  REMY: I feel a type of violence when someone marks a file as final.  NEIL: Do you know that experience? Like do you ever work with electronic files and like?  REMY: Yes. Completely. Yeah.  NEIL: Are you someone who is, uh, who marks things as final?  REMY: I try not to because then you end up with another final and final two and final seven, and yeah, it is a lot. Um, so I try and keep it organized, but never final. Nothing's final. NEIL: I'm so happy to have as my guest, film critic Melissa Anderson. Melissa is the Film Editor for the unique art criticism site 4Columns, and frequently contributes to Book Forum and Art Forum, and before that was the Senior Film Critic for The Village Voice of blessed memory. Non-professionally, Melissa has a longstanding practice of emailing me abuses she encounters of the word 'journey', which she describes as the COVID-19 of nouns. We spoke just after the new year at a recording studio at The New School near Union Square in New York City.   NEIL: Melissa Anderson.  MELISSA ANDERSON: Yes. Neil Goldberg. NEIL: Welcome to SHE'S A TALKER. I'm so happy to have you here. This is your first podcast.  MELISSA: Yeah.  NEIL: Wow. How does it feel?  MELISSA: I feel that I'm in the best of hands. I'm with a creative conversationalist of the highest order. And I'm, I'm ready to talk.  NEIL: Um, what is the elevator pitch for what you do?  MELISSA: Oh, it's very simple. I'm, I'm a film critic. I'm the world's preeminent lesbian film critic. There's my elevator pitch. Elevator to the stars.  NEIL: I love the lack of ambiguity about that.  MELISSA: I mean, of course. I'm a film critic. That would be my elevator pitch. I don't, I don't want to get too grandiose so early on in our conversation. NEIL: Well, hopefully there'll be time later. You know, I'm, I'm thinking of criticism as its own literary form. So I would say, Melissa Anderson is truly a critic of film whose criticism rises and surpasses the attributes that we apply to the other literary arts. Or it rises to the level of literature. Would you agree with that? Is that an intention?  MELISSA: You are putting a woman in a very precarious position. I mean, if I agree with you, "Oh yes. All those wonderful things you said, oh of course, I am the best." But I also don't want to go into some display of false modesty.  I will just say that, yes, I practice the dark art of film criticism. I've done it for several years now. I always feel that my writing could be so much better. That's always the goal: to not just coast, to really play with language, have some ideas, say outrageous things. Yes. And, and not just rely on plot synopsis, because that is, is really the, the dullest form of cultural criticism, especially film criticism. I think it's inevitable. You have to give the reader just some sense of what happens in terms of, you know, action or just the, the, the barest plot synopsis. And from there you can branch out and talk about the really interesting things, like Brad Pitt's face or what French actress I may have a very big crush on. You know?  NEIL: Do you get a lot of followup? Like what kind of followup does one get? MELISSA: Yes. I do get the follow up question quite a lot, which is what kinds of films do you write about? In fact, this came up just the other day. I was meeting somebody for the first time, and I said, you know, I really try to cover anything. And then the person I was talking to said, Oh, would you review the new Star Wars movie? And that's when I realized, actually, I do not cover the waterfront because I have not seen a Star Wars movie since 1983. And I almost never write about anything in the Marvel Comics Universe or DC Comics, simply because, I mean, I have, I, I have made a very concerted effort to see these films to keep up. But, and I'm not exaggerating, I found them so depleting. I remember watching Guardians of the Galaxy. And while I was watching it, I thought, this is like watching a toaster being assembled. It, it just, it simply seemed like nothing but a product where Tab A goes with Tab B, or this part slots into this part, and I thought this, this cinema is just simply not for me.  NEIL: Yes. Well, you use the word depleted, which is interesting, which I think of depleted as being like, something is taken from you. So what is taken?  MELISSA: Uh, well in those instances, my love of going to the movies. I mean it still really seems like an adventure to me. Anytime I go to a screening room, you know, anytime I'm, I'm, I'm there to review something, I'm there with my, with my uni-ball pen and my MUJI line notebook and I enter the screening room really as an act of good faith. And so these movies I'm describing, like Guardians of the Galaxy, or Thor, or whatever, those I saw as a civilian because I also think it's very important that as a film critic you, you see more than the movies that you are assigned to write about. And so I went to see these superhero movies, comic book movies, intellectual property movies on my own, you know, just to keep up. And with these films, that sense of adventurousness - that ended. Then it just, it felt like a chore just to remain in my seat until the film's completion.  NEIL: Out of family obligation, I will be seeing a lot of the franchise movies or whatever they're called. I just saw Star Wars over the holidays. And, uh, it, it does feel a little bit like a tour. But you know, my approach to the movies and this sounds so snobby, but, uh, I really do feel like sleeping during a movie is a form of interactivity. You know what I mean?  MELISSA: Andy Warhol certainly thought that, and have your fact checking department vet this, but the great Amos Vogel, who was a crucial person in New York City film culture, one of the founders of the New York Film Festival, I believe, he also said that sleeping during a film is an absolutely legitimate response to, to what you're seeing on screen.  NEIL: Absolutely. You know, you're doing a little re-edit, you know, by, by sleeping and - MELISSA: De tournage, you're detourning the moving image.  NEIL: Exactly. What is, what is a recurring thought you have? What's a thought you keep returning to?  MELISSA: Can I turn the oven off? No. Well, that is sadly... Uh. Well. It's a recurring concern, and I mentioned it earlier, which is, how am I going to make my writing better? Just yesterday, in fact, I looked at something that I wrote last year that when I completed it and filed it and went through the editing process, I thought, Oh, this piece is all right. Yesterday, while revisiting this year-old piece, I thought, how was I not run out of town? This is a colossal embarrassment.  Yeah. I don't know if, how you approach your previous works. Do you revisit older stuff that you have done or do you just, do you operate under the assumption that no, never, never look back? Just keep moving ahead.  NEIL: Revisit it to, to revise it or just to look at it?  MELISSA: Just to look at it.  NEIL: It's something, it's - one of the things I truly dislike the most is, as part of the whole artist shtick, one has to do artist talks and show past work, and I, I don't like doing it at all, primarily because it just feels so dead. Like, and I do feel like a work for me is not finished until the point that I have stopped really having feeling for it. You know what I mean? One becomes detached to it, and maybe there's a value to becoming detached from it in that, um, it allows one more flexibility, fewer feelings of darlings that are being killed and stuff. But I'd love never to look at it. For sure. But you, it sounds like you do kind of consciously revisit your past work. MELISSA: Well, sometimes, you know, invariably, I will be writing about an actor, a performer who I may have written about in another film five years ago, and I'm curious to see what I wrote then, just so that I don't repeat myself. I'm revisiting stuff just to make sure I'm not saying the same thing over again, or I'm curious to gauge my different responses if indeed there is a difference.  NEIL: Let's go to the cards, shall we?  MELISSA: I'd love to.  NEIL: Excellent. Okay, so the first card is the correlation between smoldering internal rage, and the lighthearted use of exclamation marks. MELISSA: I, when I see an abuse of exclamation marks, particularly in email correspondence, I feel nothing but a red-hot smoldering rage. Not even smoldering, just full-on Mount Vesuvius-level Krakatoa explosion. I have been told this is generational, that those younger than this elderess, and that is now billions of people, prefer the exclamation mark. And the period, which I think is a very fine mark of punctuation, is considered by millennials and younger to be somewhat passive-aggressive.  NEIL: Oh, that's interesting. I feel like exclamation marks aren't necessarily passive-aggressive, but they're meant to.  MELISSA: No, no, no. The period is passive-aggressive. NEIL: Right. No, I get that. But I feel like there's a similar kind of belying or something happening with the exclamation mark, but it's about rage. Like, um. Well, I guess passive-aggressive typically means, uh, that you have aggressive feelings that you're masking. I think of it as a more diffuse, the, the exclamation mark, as more - it's not trying to communicate anger at someone, but a free-floating anger that is perfumed by way of the exclamation mark. MELISSA: Right. Because the exclamation mark perfumes it with a cheerfulness or an excitement. It just exhausts me.  NEIL: Oh, absolutely. It asks so much of you. You always have to ask, what does it mean?  MELISSA: Yes.  NEIL: And when was the last time you used one?  MELISSA: Just yesterday, in fact, wishing someone a happy 2020.  NEIL: Oh yeah. You got to do that. A period there is, is slightly hostile. MELISSA: That seems very dour and grim.  NEIL: Next card: that bring-down moment, after you've watched a transcendent performance, when you first go to look at your phone. And perhaps this applies to movies.  MELISSA: Well, after I've seen something really terrific, whether it be a live performance or a motion picture - to maintain that feeling, I will defer looking at the phone for quite some time. I just like to replay it in my mind.  NEIL: Yeah. How do you feel right after a show if you're with someone and they're, like, wanting to analyze it?  MELISSA: This drives me crazy. Of the many billions of things that I appreciate about my fantastic lady, one of them is that, in the many years that we've been together, in the many thousands of movies that we've seen together, we will leave the theater, and neither one of us feels this compulsion to say, so what did you think? What did you think? Which really sends me into murderous rage. And, uh, there was a time when I was going to film festivals fairly regularly. And for seven years I went to Le Festival de Cannes, where, talk about depleting. Press screenings at the Cannes Film Festival begin at eight-thirty in the morning. NEIL: Wow.  MELISSA: So one is rushing to see, you know, the latest Lars von Trier or whatever. You come stumbling out into the bright Mediterranean sun, and you are just surrounded by all of these film critics who are just assaulting, assaulting you with a quote. What did you think? What did you think? And I. This really, so many times, really put me over the edge. You just need time to simply let the images or the live performance, whatever you've just seen, let it wash over you. Sink in. So I find the question an assault.  NEIL: Next card, Melissa. Looking in my apartment's compost container is sort of like gossip. I find I enjoy looking in the compost.  MELISSA: You know, I also enjoy it somewhat, and I will also say that I feel that now one-fourth to one-third of my waking hours are spent taking the compost down to the compost bins. Yeah, it is, it is something of a time investment. But when I look at it, forgive me, I must say it - I'm overcome with a sense of virtue because my lady and I, we like to do a lot of cooking at home, and I make, uh, at least one, sometimes two cups, very strong French-pressed coffee. So all of my coffee grounds around there. And so, yes, in fact, before leaving the house, I took the compost out, and I thought, Oh look. Greens and coffee grounds and brown eggs. We're doing great.  NEIL: This is your own compost you're talking about.  MELISSA: My co- the compost of the soul.  NEIL: I hear that. It is deeply virtuous. I feel very embraced by compost. Like I like that compost, within its parameters will accept everything, and you don't have to tell food scraps how to become compost. I know that there's some work involved. It just feels embracing. It takes. Compost takes.  MELISSA: You know, one feels really in tune with the spirit of the first Earth Day in 1970. NEIL: That feeling when the plane lands and they dramatically reverse the engines to slow it down.  MELISSA: Well, if it, particularly if I'm coming back to New York, I'm, I'm spirally thinking, will I be able to make it to the air train in time? Will I be able to make it to the LIRR to pull into the Atlantic Terminal, which is a convenient 10-minute walk from my house. One would hope that the slow brain would kick in. The slow brain being, Oh, how great. One has landed safely, although now that I mentioned that, should one be feeling grateful that one has landed, or should one be filled with what my Shero Greta Thunberg has us thinking about, which is Flygskam, or shame of flying. Yeah. So I think the next time I fly, and I'm not sure when that will be, yeah. I, when the plane lands, maybe I'll just be feeling filled with shame.  NEIL: Yeah. I feel a variation on that because when it goes in reverse, you feel how much force is required to, to stop the plane, you know, which suggests how much, how much energy is going into propelling the plane forward, and you're burning fuel to send it in reverse. So it is a moment of - MELISSA: And killing Mother Earth. You think, how big is my carbon footprint?  NEIL: Oh God.  MELISSA: Sorry, Greta.  NEIL: Yeah. I just watched Greta's um, speech, finally, um, over, yeah, over the vacation, because, I don't know how I hadn't seen it before, but - MELISSA: I still haven't seen it.  NEIL: It's prophetic. A lot of it is like, You, meaning people of - I'm 56, like my generation. "How dare you" is the refrain, which, I think, I would have reworked that. Um. MELISSA: You're going to copy edit Greta.  NEIL: Yes, exactly.  MELISSA: Take a red pen to Greta.  NEIL: But a lot of it... I can imagine 20 years, something down the line, I do feel like there's going to be a generational justified wrath, um, hitting us, hitting people of my age, you know. And she speaks that.  MELISSA: I find her incredibly inspiring. I mean, yes, in all seriousness, I really am. I'm not someone who flies a tremendous amount. I'd say I'd average two to three flights a year. But this whole concept of the Flygskam, it has really made me think, thanks to this 16-year-old prophetess that, yeah, this is really, um, a great harm that I am perpetuating by flying so I can have a vacation in Paris or go visit friends in Los Angeles. So I have tremendous respect for this fiery, oracular, young person.  NEIL: Melissa, when you put your arm around a friend or hold their hand, but then the discomfort of when to disconnect emerges.  MELISSA: Um, I think of myself as a pretty physically-affectionate person with friends. I'm really not a hand-holder.  NEIL: Uh huh.  MELISSA: Even with my lover, and we've had some discussions about this. Because she, when we first began our love journey so many years ago, she would often like to take my hand out in public. And I thought, this kind of bugs me. But, and I, you know, I wanted to check in with myself. Why? Is it internalized homophobia? And then I realized, I, I, I landed upon what bothered me about it. There was something about my hand being held. It made me feel infantilized. Her arm around my shoulder, or even better, her arm around my waist - that I was into. Cause that felt more like a PG-13 type of public display of affection. NEIL: Right.  MELISSA: And also with the hand-holding, you know, I try to be very conscientious about taking up public space. And when you're walking around a couple holding hands, it's an impasse.  NEIL: It is like a blockade.  MELISSA: If there's a way that one could have a public display of affection while walking single file, that is, that's the challenge of 2020. Lovers, lovers of New York City. Think of how this can be done. The piggy-back ride. Will that be the way to show somebody you're really sweet on them in 2020?  NEIL: You do see the occasional piggy-back ride, but it doesn't make me feel good.  MELISSA: Not so sexy, right? You know, we're surrounded by an army of lovers. NEIL: That's true. Taking up space. Um, you know, I feel the same thing about holding hands in public. It's not about the physical infantilizing thing, but it is a type of intern - I don't know if it's internalized homophobia. It's like, yikes. Are we gonna get a bottle thrown at us?  MELISSA: Hmm.  NEIL: I'm sure there's internalized homophobia in there too. MELISSA: But again, I don't, it's, it's not that, it's just... Okay, well actually now I'm thinking about this more. I'm fact-checking myself, holding hands in the movies is okay. Because you're - one's parents, or certainly my parents, wouldn't hold my hand during the movie.  NEIL: True.  MELISSA: But holding, holding one's hand in public. That is something your parents did to you as a child.  NEIL: We've nailed it. You've nailed it. That's it. Yeah. MELISSA: I'd like to thank all of the years of psychotherapy I've had on the couch of, well, should I name my psychotherapist?  NEIL: If you want to give a shout-out.  MELISSA: Well, she's a... She knows who she is. NEIL: Yes, exactly. That. Let's hope. Let's hope one's therapist knows who they are. I've never name-checked my, my therapist either. Um, and yet all my years in therapy, I never came to the conclusion about the hand-holding. NEIL: What's a bad ex you'd take over a good Y? MELISSA: Me, who considers herself to be really one a gift of the gab - I'm stumped. I would take, I would take a bad movie that's not in the Marvel Comics Universe or a Star Wars movie - I would take a bad movie any day over a good television show.  There's no romance to watching television.  NEIL: Is it context?  MELISSA: There's no sense of adventure in staying home and watching television. When you commit to seeing a movie, you have to leave the house. And it seems that, increasingly, even in New York City, this great, dynamic, incredible place, the messages we keep receiving are: stay at home, stay at home, cocoon. You never have to leave the house. Everything will come to you. You'll have your content delivered to you. You'll have your food delivered to you. Stay home, stay home.  No, leave the house, people. It's very exciting to go to the movies, even if it's a stinker. There's so much that could happen, so much that's beyond your control. It's terrifying, but it's exciting. Leave the house. Leave it. Leave your house.  NEIL: On that note, Melissa Anderson, thank you for being on - that didn't sound genuine. I have to do it again.  MELISSA: Yeah. Talk about passive-aggressive. Speaking nothing but periods.  NEIL: On that note, Melissa, thank you so much for being on SHE'S A TALKER.  MELISSA: It was a great honor, Neil Goldberg. I thank you.  NEIL: Bye. That was my conversation with Melissa Anderson. Thank you for listening.  Before we get to the credits, there's a listener response I'd love to share with you. In my conversation with Jon Wan, in response to learning that they studied jazz saxophone in high school, I said, "I'm going to make a controversial generalization: I don't think jazz is gay." Jon and I then talked about the way jazz offered a model of cool and casualness that didn't feel available to us as awkward, closeted high-schoolers. Steven Winter emailed saying, "Jazz is self-expression within yourself being rendered into outer sensation. There are so many ways to cut the cake of the music called jazz, but three key essentials are: one, freedom; two, swing; and three, improvisation. Can these elements not also be used to describe the fundamental pillars of LGBTQ survival in the 20th century up till now? Jazz is about describing and finding yourself as an individual. That's why you can hear a dozen jazz versions of the same tune, and each will hit you in a different way. Can the same thing be said of the gay movement? Yes, it can." Thank you, Steven.  If you have something you'd like to share about a card or anything else you've heard on the podcast, email us or send us a voice memo at shesatalker@gmail.com or message us on Instagram at shesatalker. And also, as always, we'd love it if you'd rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or share this episode with a friend. This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund. Devon Guinn produced this episode. Andrew Litton mixed it. Molly Donahue and Aaron Dalton are our consulting producers. Justine Lee handle social media. Our interns are Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, and Jesse Kimotho. Our card-flip beats come from Josh Graver, and my husband, Jeff Hiller, sings the theme song you are about to hear. Thanks to all of them, and to my guest, Melissa Anderson, and to you for listening.  JEFF HILLER: She's a talker with Neil Goldberg. She's a talker with fabulous guests. She's a talker, it's better than it sounds, yeah!

Melissa and Bart Hamada have been married 13 years. Diving right in, talking about one of the most trying things they've walked through together in marriage, infertility. Have we idolized certain milestones in our life and in the church? How often do we not even think as we are asking certain questions? Never really fully knowing what someone may be walking through… There are those sharp pointed questions, those cliche questions. Being married 13 years. Bart and Melissa get asked that question, “No kids?” a lot. Bart says sometimes it is easier to just give the short response back without going into it. Melissa — “You have your heart prepared for those questions. Not wanting to put that person on the spot, by saying “Oh we can't have children”. Automatically you get a look on their face, and I get it. I thank you for recognizing it's a hard thing but it shouldn't be something we aren't able to openly talk about. It shouldn't be something that I or my husband or my marriage should carry any shame for. It's not something that we've have chosen for ourselves. And even if there's a couple whose chosen not to have children, there's no shame in that either.” Melissa also shared, “I've found I've personally struggled with where you feel ‘What about me is broken?' Or why is it that I'm not good enough to be a mom? There've been those seasons that I allow myself to question those things, and in light of truth found in Scripture, I know that God is sovereign and I know He's in control. He's redeemed me and my body, my marriage. I know He's not withholding anything good. The Scripture says that in Psalms, that ‘He withholds nothing good for those who walk uprightly.' And I know I am not upright in myself, that I'm upright in Christ and His righteousness. So I lean back on that verse to give me comfort and focus and perspective on what is true. But it is hard. it is still a desire of my heart. We're not in control of those desires of when and how we have those things come to pass.” Bart — “ About God's timing, if you're walking with the Lord He has you exactly where He wants you.” Barrenness — Melissa goes a bit into a study on the life of Elizabeth. Her husband had difficulty conceiving. How To Deal with Disappointment by Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth “Barrenness is where you don't see fruit. That can be anything. We don't always see the fruit of our labor. It reminded me of not being able to bear a child at this time that it's a season, it has purpose and it's okay. Anytime we want to see fruit in our labor, it leads to disappointment. Reminds us of Who to go to with our disappointment.” Similar to Habakkuk where he sees the wickedness around him prevail, he cries out to the Lord, “How long Lord, how long Lord will You allow this to go on?” It's recognizing in the midst of disappointment and carry that in my heart, I go to the One who sees it all. It's clinging to His character, not our feelings. Not who I think He is, but knowing who He declares He is. Bart — “On disappointment and when you've prayed for something and God says no or hasn't com through, you go back and think what your motives were on that. Was it to glorify Him?” Joy and peace cannot be taken away from us but it can be traded for things of this world. Don't ever trade it. What Christ did on the cross, secured our peace and joy. We don't need to fight for it but we do need to fight for more of Christ. Job 23:10: “But he knows the way that I take;     when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.” He is preparing us to be His bride. 22:00 how they met Melissa literally fell into Bart's lap. Bart had been pretty discouraged that he hadn't ever been in a serious relationship, so his sister prayed that his future wife would just fall into his lap. “Make it so easy that she fall in his lap” was what Bart's sister prayed. And that same night at study, Melissa who had been friends with them came to study a little late and had squeeze past s --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Tocco Divino Salon, 2626 Pacific Avenue, Stockton, CA 95204 Me: Well, good morning everyone. Today, I am in front of Tocco Divino and I'm going to get my hair cut. And we're going to talk with Melissa Sherwood. Right in here right now. Me: And as you can see Melissa took good care of me over in the chair. Me: This is kind of her grand opening, almost? We're getting closer. Melissa: The grand opening will be January, February. Me: January, February. Melissa: Yeah, so it’ll be a while before we’ll have that. We had to get the little details taken care of before we do that. Me: Well, there have been a lot of details as we've kind of moved through this process. That's for sure. This used to be an office building. And it took a little bit at the city. As well as here to make it the beautiful place it is now. Melissa: Oh, yes, it took from the time of signing four months of hard construction. Yeah. Yeah, it was quite a transformation. Me: Have you got any pictures of the before and after? Melissa: I do have. I do have a video it's on Facebook. Of the before and after the full transformation from getting the keys to opening day. Me: Oh, very cool, very, very cool. So, that's on Tocco Divino. Melissa: Tocco Divino Salon Facebook page. It's also on my personal page if you happen to be a friend of mine. Yeah, I'm trying to find some other avenues to get it out there. So people can take a peek. Me: Very cool. Very cool. YouTube? Melissa: I tried to put it on YouTube. I haven't figured it out yet. Me: Very good. Very good. So tell everybody about what makes this different from any other salon. You are the new salon in town. Melissa: We are the newest salon in town. We really pride in making it a place that when you walk in that you just feel at home. That it's beautiful and you feel pampered just walking in. But, you also feel very comfortable. What also makes us different is that we believe that everybody that works here that we're family. And so you feel the difference just in the environment and atmosphere as far as a sense of community, a sense of family. And I think that makes us very different from any other salon. Because there's a lot of talent out there and we do have a lot of talent here as well. But the atmosphere, the environment makes us very different. Me: Very nice. Very nice. I know it does feel very, very homey in here. I enjoyed coming in. It’s my second trip and I was the first one I got to be a chair for. Melissa: Yes. Very true. I don't know if that was good. I was half-asleep. Me: You were a little tired that day. You were a little tired. That was what? Three hours of sleep you got. Melissa: One hour. Me: One hour, oh man. I was a brave man. Melissa: You were a brave man. Yes. Me: Well, everybody, make sure and stop by and see Tocco Divino. And Melissa Sherwood “The Cosmetologist For Everyone Who Sure Would Like To Look Good!” Thank you so much, and we'll talk to you all again later. Thanks. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/yourperfecthome/message

Building your property management business and team can be challenging. As a business owner and entrepreneur, you are wired to fix problems. So, get out of the way, and hire people who have different skill sets to solve them. Today, I am talking Melissa Prandi of PRANDI Property Management. Everybody in the National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) knows her name. She helped establish it and has been in the property management business for 37 years. You’ll Learn... [03:13] Brand new baby, brand new company, but no bank loan. [04:23] Beginning of NARPM and best practices for property management software. [05:25] Solopreneur Sandtrap: Can only handle 50-60 doors before getting stuck. [05:48] Team Sandtrap: Bottleneck of 200-400 doors when building a team, creating a culture, and systemizing processes become painful. [06:33] How to build a team: Different personalities and skill sets. [09:15] Success comes with your willingness to change. [12:15] Good at growing the company and letting people grow or go. [14:50] End-of-the-day (EOD) Report: Rate your day, workload, challenges. [15:50] Working from home: Nobody can touch you; a physical disconnect. [16:44] Modes of Communication: Basecamp, Voxer, and email. Analyze styles to know what tools to use. [21:10] Entrepreneur’s Ego: Nobody can do it as good as me. [24:57] It’s not always about business. Something’s going on. What can I do to help? [28:42] Face-time and morning connections to catch awesomeness and say thanks. [31:30] Making mistakes and ‘aha’ moments; what did you do/should have done? [34:15] Be a student and fan of what works, and be willing to fail. Never stop learning; speak and teach. Share your knowledge because people soak it up. [38:20] Keep yourself well to be a good leader. Health is #1 thing to impact productivity. [44:40] Reach out and lean on others who have been through the same things. Tweetables Success comes with your willingness to change. Be a student and fan of what works and be willing to fail. To grow your business, you have to build a community. You can’t do everything. Listening to chipmunks all day long telling you what needs to happen. Resources Melissa Prandi PRANDI Property Management NARPM Tony Robbins: DiSC Personality Test Basecamp Voxer Bluefishing: The Art of Making Things Happen by Steve Sims EMDR Therapy DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. And today, I have a very special guest, Melissa Prandi. Melissa, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. Melissa: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. Jason: Melissa, you are practically synonymous with NARPM, you helped found NARPM, you have everybody in NARPM knows you, and you have been involved in property management for how many years now? Melissa: Thirty-seven years. March 27. Jason: Thirty-seven years which is almost my entire life, right? Melissa: You have to say that, yup. Jason: Which is amazing. You have tons of experience, you are this phenomenal character and charismatic person. Everybody’s been telling me I have to get Melissa on the show. I’m really excited for you to be here. Maybe the place to start would be to why don’t you share with everybody your story? How did you get started in property management all that time ago? What crazy idea popped in your head to make you decide that [...] Melissa: There’s a lot of crazy [...]. I have to say I started in my company March 27, 1982 as a receptionist. I came in, all of my friends have gone off to college, I said, “I’m not going to afford to go to college. I’m going to work three jobs.” So, I came in, that was one of my three jobs, I was a receptionist at a property management company. I worked there 5½ years. This is great because women love this part of the story. When I went out on maternity leave on a Wednesday at five o’clock, I went grocery shopping Thursday and Friday morning I went into labor. If you know where I live, I’m in Marin County just north of San Francisco and I had to cross the Golden Gate bridge. I got to the hospital at 10 minutes to eight in the morning, I [...] 10 minutes to nine in the morning, said, “Okay, give me my [...] I have things to do with backup,” went home the same day. Jason: What? Melissa: Yeah. I had this new baby boy, Matt, many people know Matt, and Monday morning the owners of my company called and said, “We’re going to sell this company. If you don’t buy it, you’re going to be out of the job.” I didn’t take too long. I said, “Oh, you know. Hmm, I have a new baby. Hmm,” and I’m going to have two new babies. Sure enough, I made arrangements. I went to my dad and said, “Dad, I want to buy this company.” He goes, “Really?” and I said, “Yeah, I want to buy it.” He said, “All right,” and I said, “Well, I need a loan.” He goes, All right, I’ll give you $3000.” But the [...] you can’t do is go to a bank and get a loan, so I had to get very creative with this brand new baby and a brand new company. That was 37 years go. Jason: That was quite the adventure. When an entrepreneur personality type is given a challenge like this, you had a clear outcome, clear objective, you were going to get that company and you had all of this pressure. Entrepreneurs in those moments, like we, light up and something magical starts to happen, right? And it work out for you. Melissa: I guess so. [...] I’m still sitting here and [...] NARPM, still doing property management. Jason: Great. Maybe share a little backstory on how did NARPM come to be? How this this come about? Melissa: It’s an interesting story. I wasn’t one of the original 100 that were in the charter of NARPM. A handful of people got together and they were actually exchanging software challenges. [...] own a software company at the time which is no longer, and they started talking about their best practices. They all kicked in money to start NARPM. I’m 25 years in NARPM, so you can imagine that’s pretty much a part of my life. Jason: Quite a while. Our topic today is building your business and team. At your business, Brandi Property Management, I would imagine that you have a pretty awesome team after all this time. A lot of people this is a big challenge. I’ve talked about this on the show before but there’s these two sand traps I’ve noticed in property management. The first sand trap in growth is around 50 or 60 units. This is the solopreneur sand trap. That’s about as many doors as they can handle on their own and they get stuck. Sometimes, they back themselves into a financial corner, they don’t have enough revenue to hire their first person, they’re managing as much as they can handle, they’re losing doors as fast as they’re getting on, and they’re stuck. For those listening, if you’re stuck in that, talk to me. We can help you get past that. If you break past that 100 door barrier, I found that by default they end up in the next sand trap, which is the 200–400 door category. This is where it’s the team sand trap. This is where they’re not building a team, they’re trying to create culture, they’re trying to systemize processes, they’re trying to wrap their head around what they should be doing, and as they approach maybe 400–500 units it gets really painful because everybody’s asking them for everything and they start to realize they are the number one bottleneck in the entire business, that everything they got them there they have to give up. I’m excited to talk with you because you’ve dealt with this stuff and you’ve seen this. Maybe you could share your perspective of what does it really take to build a business and how does the team really play into that from your perspective. Melissa: You touched on little bit of my message is getting out of the way. I’m not the tech generation, the paperless generation. I still use paper. I still like to print and read. It doesn’t work in today’s market for everybody. I would say the number one thing as you grow is to get out of the way. Get out of the way and hire people that have different skill sets. In our company, we always do personality tests. Tony Robbins offers it for free. Jason: The DISC? Melissa: Yeah, the DISC test. It’s free on his website. We do that, find the personality styles. For example, in a bookkeeper, you want someone who is very good, very high, and procedural. You want to make sure you find that in any of your staff mates. In our chain we have a big diversity, age, and skills. You can’t remember everybody have personality when you want to be like me. I never met a stranger and I’m a visionary. I’m the person who’s up with the ideas, tell us the way I wanted results and then gets out of the way. Jason: I love it. I’m a big proponent of using the DISC as well. In fact, Tony Robbins recently switched his DISC assessment, if you’ve noticed, from the inner metrics, which I actually used to have a connection where I would get the full three-part inner metrics, which is even better than the Tony Robbins one which gives you the first two portions. But then, it started getting watered down and smaller. They just recently switched DISC providers and it changed, but I find it’s better than what it was even though it’s not as pretty. You can do that free DISC assessment. You’ve got people on you team that are high C’s, they love compliance, they are rigid, they’re probably not the best friendly communicators, you’ve got high I’s that are great communicators and really great maybe with people, maybe high S’s that are great with customer service, maybe DC’s which are like unicorns that are really great at operations, maybe high DI’s which are great at sales and closing. Understanding that gives you a lot of power in being able to understand people. Melissa: [...] when you get ready to hire, looking at that needs assessments. Looking that what diversity is in your team, but I want to go back to something you test on again because this is where [...] out, which is change. Success comes with your willingness to change. That’s what basically you’re talking about as you’re training your team and also speaking to the property managers, as you said, they reach out to you. They have to be willing to change and I’m willing to change. That’s why I take a lot of classes even after all these years. I get into classes and I think of these aha moments that’s like, “Oh, I used to do that.” I cannot just go back sometimes and do things I used to do, but I also wanted to say, “Oh, we can’t do that.” “Why not?” “Well, we tried that.” Don’t have this theory of ‘that’s the way we’ve always done it,’ because that [...] stuck. Jason: Right. Any of us who have been in business long enough, we’ve probably forgotten more than we’ve learned. There’s so much and it’s great to get those reminders. You have mentioned early on that they need to get out of the way. How does somebody consciously do that? A lot of times when we’re in the way, we can’t see it. It’s almost like telling somebody, “Look at the back of your head.” It’s how they feel. You’re saying, “Get out of the way,” and they’re like, “I don’t even know how I’m in the way. How do I do that?” How do you help [...] Melissa: I’m sitting upstairs in a private suite away from my entire staff. My son, Matt, and let me just tell you I started the way I got the business when Matt was born, right? My son used to say, “Mom, nobody grows up and wants to be a property manager. Matt just celebrated his 11th year in property management and he’s our [...] Business Development Manager. Jason: Over a decade. Melissa: Yeah. But he didn’t. He went to college. He didn’t think, “Well, that’s what I want to be when I grow up. Nor did I. I don’t [...] thought you’re going to be servicing property managers.” But Matt sits in my original office. Therefore there’s a different skill set and, guess what, I’m not in the way. I’m down there and there’s something like walking by the office to go fix it as it get me out of the way. Jason: You’ve physically have gotten yourself out of the way so you’re not hearing the auditory things that you would normally trigger a response and cause you to go into fix-it mode as an entrepreneur because we hear problems, we’re wired. We want to fix it. We also see a problem, we’re like, “I can make money solving that problem.” That’s how we think. Melissa: And I tell you, I still go down, I’ll sit there and they want to see. Remember, I’m the face of the company. I’m the visionary. So, I [...] in the morning, I start down there, good morning to everybody, “Good morning, Frank. Good morning, Christine.” I go through my good mornings, I say hello to everybody there, and that’s [...]. I find out if there’s anything they need, me but I [...] work for the first couple of hours at home. What difference does it make? It allows me to actually stay home. Let me tell you that my role, I was a property manager as I said when I started in the business. Got my license and my broker’s license, went to California State, got into real estate, and then I helped grow the company. And I’m very good at it. I really think if you want to grow your business, you have to be in community. You can’t be in community and be in the office operations and running everything. You can’t do everything. I have gone out of the way by not being physically in an office downstairs where everybody can come to me. Now, I have a really good team. Christine Goodin who has her RMP with NARPM and her MPM. That’s a Residential Property Manager. MPM is a Master Property Manager. She came to work for me 18 years ago and she didn’t even know what property management was. And she’s now the Vice-President of Operations. So, you hire right, you bring them to educational courses. Don’t stand in their way growing, either. That’s another really key factor. Don’t let them get stagnant. I say, “How do you keep somebody happy for 18 years? Give them new challenges.” You give them new roles. Let them grow right along with you. Jason: Yeah, if you find somebody that has a growth mindset. Not everybody wants to grow. There are certain personality types that love growth, they love learning. On DISC they would have a high theoretical score typically, for example, on the Tony Robbins DISC profile that we have mentioned. But if they love learning, they have a growth mindset, and that’s a priority in their life is personal development, then you got a feedback. You feed them that and you have a team member that, just like fine wine, accrues value over time. Melissa: [...] I want to go back, though, because it’s not without mistakes when you hire someone that doesn’t like the business. I think oftentimes with property managers and our groups and our friends come to me and they ask questions. I think some of the hardest thing we had was letting go. We hire someone that doesn’t fit in the team, doesn’t fit in our culture, and we hang on. I think [...] over the years. It took me a while to get there. But I can tell you that if you’re mostly have a 30-day, a 60-day, maybe a 90-day introductory period, if it’s not working in that first month, it doesn’t usually change. So, if I [...] in the States because I’m nice and I’m a fixer, then I hang on. [...] wait too long. Again, if you’re going through and adding to your team, you need to really make sure that you’re checking in. I want to give you a tip because I’m talking about that. I love to share. Jason: Yeah. Melissa: In the first 90 days of a new team member come in to work at Prandi Property Management, we do what’s called EOD, an end of the day report. They actually write down things they learned, the challenges they found that day, and just some sharing. At the end of that, they rate their day a one, a two, or a three—there could be 2.5—based on what they feel their workload, three being, “I can’t handle any more and I’m full.” I have a new employee coming on and she’s been with me, let’s say, 20 days, and she gave me a 1–1½, we’re not giving her enough work. If you’re going to bring somebody new onto your team, again I don’t have to check on them, I don’t have to call on her, I don’t have to sit with her, somebody else is handling all the training, but as the owner, the CEO, and the visionary, I need to know how I’m doing with the team’s giving her information and what she needs from me to make her the best Prandi team member. Jason: You mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important to point out. One, you mentioned that by not just having your office separate or segregated but also being able to work from home and working from home. I run a virtual team and a virtual company. Nobody can touch me and I’ve always had that advantage that there is a physical disconnect. I will probably go on saying that if my assistant could walk in every 10 minutes and say, “Hey, what should I be doing now?” I would go nuts, right? Having that, that’s another option for those that are listening, there is a trend with some people that they’re moving towards more virtual teams and digital offices and that can also create that disconnect. Melissa: I want to ask you a question so I can also [...] and teach the audience. How do you communicate best with the person since you are virtual, and we all love the virtual part of it, how are you best communicating with your team member that’s even your assistant? What’s the best way you all communicate? Jason: Our main modes of communication, we use Basecamp as a communication platform. What that allows us to do is to post messages, to think about things, to get clarity and put it, and then we allow team members to respond to those, rather than throwing it all out real-time in a meeting where everybody has to react, because I find the responses are big-time wasters and it’s not as helpful. We usually post memos or post a to-do and then people that are need to be looped in will be looped in and can comment on that. That keeps things really quiet and makes people think. It creates a very calm workplace. That’s our foundational mode of communication. For quicker communication, we use the app Voxer and that is a walkie-talkie app. I don’t like typing and texting all the time. It takes too long. I’m quick. I want to send a voice message so I hold down a button on the app and I say, “Hey, Adam. Can you check on this client? They have mentioned this and do this and blah-blah-blah.” And then he’ll take care of it. The cool thing about Voxer is if you’re really impatient as an entrepreneur, if you listen to the messages, if you’re in the chat with somebody, the messages are real time. But if you’re not, it works like voice messages, like voicemail. And you can play them at high speed so you can speed up if they’re already done talking and the recording’s there, then you can play it at high speed. So, I’m listening to chipmunks all day long, telling me what needs to happen. There’s a lot of communication even through Voxer or a situation like that that I just need the details, so I can just listen really quickly and we can consume information cognitively and auditory-wise much faster than we can speak it. We can usually do it at almost twice the pace very easily. Melissa: It brings another point of communication. A good team member and a good team lead [...]. People need to know you’re supporting them. That’s what I [...]. But I was thinking about it, we did a lot of team-building last year. We hired [...] consultants to come in, and one thing I’ve learned about myself was delivery of email. Don’t stand [...] similar. Send [...] information and what the fact is, what the need is, send it to me in a delivery form. If you have team members and that you’re on a call today and the podcast, I think it’s really important to know your style, what you want. They also said that I was sending the exact [...] that said, “Well, I send it after the company email and no one responds,” and they said, “Send me a few of those.” The guy came back and said, “You’re not asking for anything. You’re sending information but you’re not asking.” “Okay, I need this back but [...]” It’s not that we do a campaign to get you. This is where’s the call-to-action. [...] entrepreneur and you’re on the show today and you want to learn. Ask somebody from the outside to come in and analyze your style and your teams and they’ll help give you tools. I’ve done that. I’m always learning. Jason: One of the hacks that I learned when I worked at Hewlett-Packard is that we were told to have certain subject lines if we were sending emails. If we needed some sort of response, you always had to say, “ACTION REQ’D:” at the beginning of the subject line in all caps. So, we would do ACTION REQ’D: if there’s an action required, or FYI was for your information only, you don’t need to do anything on it. So, there was kind of this code with subject lines. Now, I’m beyond email. I don’t even look at my email. If anybody emails me, I’m not going to probably see it. My assistant handles all of that for me because I don’t like email. I don’t want to communicate through email. So, I set up a system in which somebody else can go with that and she just tells me the four or five emails I need to deal with and the other 100 or 200 I get a day are [...] somebody else. Melissa: She’s a very good communicator and she is very responsive. If she doesn’t get a response, she page me again, making sure and not [...] very positive way. She’s patient, when I’m really busy, I’ll be a couple of days [...] she’s right back checking in with me. You’ve got someone watching your back and helping you grow, I’m sure. Jason: Oh yeah. It’s a huge help and that’s the thing is with hiring, I think one of the big constraints of those with entrepreneurs is this myth that if I have somebody else do it, it won’t be done as well. It’s such an egotistical thing that people need to get over. This belief that nobody will be as good as me. As long as somebody believes that, it’s true. They make it true and they create a situation which they’ll never be able to offload things. But I can speak with total confidence that every single person on my team is better at what they do than myself. They’re all better at what they do. India, way better at email than me. I don’t want to deal with email. I’m short with emails, I don’t pay attention, I miss things. Email’s not my thing. Melissa: [...] going back to the strength of the team and knowing your strength as the owner/CEO of your company and knowing my strength. You put me in a room with 200 people, you put me in a room with 1000 people, I try to meet every one of them. I know that my strength in the world growing my business, is to be the face of the business, to be in the field. I was in a class this morning. I’ve been taking classes at the local university on hiring teams and developing teams. Yesterday, I took a great workshop at Dominican University from a [...] a little bit about,job descriptions, position statements, and what’s the end results. They really teach us to have things in place and what our expectation is. So I’m always taking courses to try and figure out how can I be better at things. I’m never going to be the techie person that knows how to set everything up. I hand it to my son. I don’t have to be, right? He’s 31 years old. I can hand it to Matt and say, “Matt, I don’t understand this. My phone is doing something. Here, can you just fix it?” I can hand it to Christine and she’s going to help me. So just not trying to waste time, I [...] come at me. And don’t forget, part of [...] today is also life balance. Being able to turn it off, take care of ourselves because we have a good team. Jason: I think the more that an entrepreneur focuses on self-care, the more they have to give to their team and the lower the pressure noises. One of things I’ve noticed with entrepreneurs is that when our pressure noise gets high—it can be high in property management or in any business, but we deal with a lot as business owners—all of the worst attributes you share about business owners come out. People could perceive us as controlling or angry or frustrated because we get into this preloaded state where we’re in a stress response. If you lower the pressure noise for an entrepreneur, our genius comes out. Our best attributes come out. The visionary comes out. We’re able to see the future. We’re able to make decisions about things. If an entrepreneur does not have the team that they are in love with right now, then they’re not the person yet that should be running it. That’s the sad truth. They haven’t become that person yet, that can have a team, that instead of them having feeling like they are trying to control, it’s instead a team that they’re able to just inspire. Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control and we get into that stressful place where we’re trying to manipulate and get our team to do stuff and we’re trying to force KPIs down their throat or trying to push them to do things because we feel like, “Why can’t me team just do what I need them to do?” We shift into a calm space of, “What does my team need from me in order to be as successful as possible so they can keep helping me the way that they’ve been helping me?” and that’s a much more comfortable place to be. It’s a calm, quiet workplace. Melissa: I actually have never been accused of… I don’t yell, I’m a very calm-natured person, I deal with and respect boundaries, so I’m very good about how would that person feel if they were in my seat, how are they want to be treated. I do that a lot. I know their personal. Something’s going on. You want to know if something’s going on, it’s not always about business. Those people that have lives [...] out the door. So, I’m really in-tune with that. I called someone in yesterday and said, “Look, I can tell something’s going on. You just not coming work with that bright smile. What can I do to help?” So, even though I’m not downstairs, still sense the energy and pay really good attention. I try to make sure they know that I really care and I do care. The other thing is really working with an outside business consultant. Don’t get stuck. Have somebody come in and help build your team by doing team building. We had a lot of fun doing team building last year at the end of the year in October. Last year in October, we went out and went off site, we prepared everything so we can all leave, and we had one person [...] kind of helped out while we work on all day. We worked on what I think the success in my company is very strongly if we’re not communicating with each other, and we’re not respecting, getting along, and taking our own blinders off from our busy property management day, then the outside world is getting that same message. So, if I’m not really happy doing my job as a property manager and I’m not having a good day because my team members not [...] and the other team members not doing something, that equals out to the public and that’s when one of those one-star reviews come in. You can ask the team to let them know they’re supportive with each other, give them the tools, working with that, and let them get to know each other and [...] each other, that goes out to customer service. Jason: There’s this great book by a gentleman. I believe his name is Steve Sims and the book’s called Bluefishing. He basically talks about how his whole goal with his team members or even with clients that he wants to work with is they have to pass the chug test. It’s like, “Would I want to have a beer with this person?” and it’s just a simple gut check to say, “Do I like this person? Do I enjoy being around this person? Does this person makes me feel safe? Do I feel comfortable?” because if anybody on your team doesn’t make you feel comfortable and you’re always worried about them or you’re concerned about them or there’s some sort of weird disconnect in rapport between the two of you, they’re adding to you pressure and noise. I think that it is important to like your team, to actually like them. Melissa: [...] company. Sometimes when there’s one person who’s not [...] team, they go and they grab other people. Jason: Oh yeah, they’re a cancer. Melissa: You have to be really careful with that. But I really [...] week after our last retreat work and that was they wanted. For somebody [...] it’s not the most positive [...], so we started a Positively Prandi board. We got that big board [...] coffee and our tea is, and people are [...], “Congratulations on your three-year anniversary.” We write riddles. [...] while the sun is shining now, how happy we are today. And that doesn’t cost money. It’s just a little more positivity and always share a five-star review. We always celebrate a good review, and if it’s not [...] we could get there. That’s another [...] about growing your business is really you have to work on your teams, inside the walls of your team before you can really start wanting to grow and double or triple in size. Jason: You have mentioned early on that you make sure you have this morning connection with your team. My team’s virtual and we’ve done the same thing. I felt like it’s absolutely critical that you get FaceTime with your entire team. Those that have virtual teams that are listening, or virtual team members, one of the things that we do at DoorGrow is we do a morning huddle. It’s 15 minutes, we set it at a weird hour so that people know that time matters. We set it at a weird time, like it’s not at a half-hour mark or hour mark and people have to show up for that. It’s 15 minutes, we just share stats openly in the company, here’s how much revenue we’ve made so far this month, here’s how many people on our Facebook group, all that different stats that matter, and then we do ‘caught being awesome,’ when we say, “Anybody catch anybody being awesome in the last day?” Sometimes it’s a little awkward if it’s a small huddle and not everybody showed up and people are like [...]. But I always comes up with somebody that we can point out or highlight somebody. Melissa: [...] for us at Prandi Property Management, I have a weekly team meeting. I get copies of the notes so I can look at what’s going on with the teams, and the at the very bottom it says, “Did you write a thank you note to them?” because still old-fashioned handwritten thank you notes go a long way. We have Prandi custom beautiful notes cards, it works in all industries, and who did you thank today? It’s similar to what you’re saying because a team, I like that. I want to go back and say that, “Who did you catch being awesome today?” That’s kind of we’re doing to Positively Prandi board, but in this case, acknowledging their credibility at the end of it, the weekly team meeting notes [...] really good [...] everybody’s formats is the same, so we’re looking at the same numbers, same things, and when it says, “Oh, that’s so nice,” they wrote the gardener a thank you note. They wrote the plumber a thank you note. They wrote [...] a thank you note for the inconvenience. We get a bunch of $5 Starbucks cards, we [...] and say, “Have a cup of coffee on us. Cheers to you.” Just saying thank you is really nice. Jason: I love it. In our huddle, at the very end we just go around and ask each person, “Are you stuck on anything? Really simple, is there anything you’re stuck on?” and there’s always somebody that’s stuck. When we didn’t used to do that and we would just have a weekly meeting or just throughout the day, it makes me wonder what were they doing when they were stuck all of these previous times because there’s always somebody stuck on something. “Oh yeah, this client had this question. I didn’t know how to deal with this, or this.” We can tackle those things really quickly and if it’s something that takes a lot of time, we’ll just say, “All right. Let’s schedule a meeting for that.” But we just tackle that in our huddle so everybody feels unstuck, which is also helpful. Melissa: It’s not just stuck. I myself have made mistakes in this business, that we have aha moments as well. I can say, “Well, is there anything you want to share that you have an aha moment that you might teach us how to do our job better?” [...] offers I do like I’ll start an example. I’ll say, “Matt, my son, now is the Business Development Manager, who is out there in the field. Sometimes we get three, four, five, six clients a day,” who knows how many are coming. They’re coming fast and furious because we’ve been there a long time. He’ll say, “Hey, can you take care of this duplex? The co-owner’s called in and they really wanted a response today, but I got so many things on my plate. Can you handle that?” which is okay because I know how to do it. Only, he gave it to me at 10 in the morning and I didn’t make that connection with that client until two in the afternoon and it was too late. He had already hired someone. I can use that as my team example as my aha moment. What I should have done the moment he gave it to me, I should have stopped, I should have looked at what is it important, not checking my Facebook, my email and everything else. I should have made that a priority. Because I didn’t, he signed up with another management company. I want to share that as the owner because what will happen next time is I’ll make it a priority. I try to [...] those aha moments and life lessons. What can we do, how can we have done it differently, and we had different results, because we can all [...]. Jason: We do a weekly team meeting. In our weekly team meeting, we share wins from the previous week, personal or business. That gives the team members opportunity each Monday to share, “What were your wins for last week?” so that we can point her out. As entrepreneurs, a lot of us are economically driven, so if we take a DISC profile and turn on all the insight, we’ll see that we have a pretty high economic score typically. The mistake we make is that we assume everybody else likes money as much as us. Look at that economic score in your team members, those that are listening, if the economic score is high, bonuses work great for them. If the economic score is low, they want recognition. Most of my team members, that’s all of my team members with the exception of people that are involved in sales, usually their economic score is low, which means they want recognition. So, creating opportunities in these meetings where they get to show what they’ve done the previous week, where they get to show that they’ve had wins and we look through our objectives for the week, and they get to say, “Yes, I got these all done,” this is an opportunity for them to feel recognized by the whole team. I find that that increases motivation and accountability, significantly. Melissa: And I think it’s interesting because you and I didn’t rehearse this and we didn’t talk about what was most important, but there’s a lot of similarities in what we’re doing as entrepreneurs, owners, and visionaries. I think that’s really important for the audience to hear that some of these things that we’re talking about are simple, and it can be done by anybody. Jason: What I’ve noticed in business and life is I’m just a student and a fan of what works. That’s just what I get excited about. And really, every system, all the different coaches and mentors I’ve worked with, they so many similarities because truth and/or reality is what works and everything gravitates towards that. You’ve been in business for 37 years. You’re going to have figured out a lot of things that don’t work. What that leaves less on the table is a lot of knowledge about what works. I think also I’m very willing to fail. I’ve had lots and lots of failures. I think DoorGrow’s been built on thousands of failures and that’s how we learned. I think that goes also to my team because I’ve had so many failures. I think also I’m very conscious of the fact that my team needs to be allowed to screw up and fail. They need to feel safe failing. If they don’t feel safe failing, then they’ll never be able to learn. Melissa: Or they could hide it. We don’t want them to hide it. Jason: Exactly. They become hiders. They start hiding stuff from you the first time they screw something up and they feel reprimanded or shamed or put down, they’re going to hide that from you forever. They’re going to hide everything in the future and then having team of hiders is absolutely catastrophic to the growth of the company. Melissa: That’s true. I think that always attending workshops and now we have things online, you talk about being able to teach people like you’re doing right now, that is great. I think just because you have 10 in the business or 20 years or in my case, you never stop learning. And I think it’s really important for people to use their resources. I love to read. People can share books. They can go on your website and your Facebook page, and share a good book, and share stuff they’re learning. I find that people soak it up. I love to speak and teach. I love to walk in a room and share my knowledge. There’s not one person I’ve ever said, “No, I absolutely will not share that with you.” I usually, “No problem. You want that form, let me send it to you.” You’re going to laugh, I taught a class in Palm Springs. I’m not paperless and I’m proud of it, because I’m not and people love it. They’re going to be people that still touch things like I do. Let’s give them [...] and eventually that does change. My son doesn’t print [...] anything, but I do. So, we have to have a diversity and we have to be able to give people the tools they need to be the best whatever the way it is in the year 2019 or the way we used to do it. When I first got in business, the screen was literally the size of a small [...]. We didn’t have cell phones. Technology is good. I think I’ve been able to travel, I’ve been able to leave my business. Now, I check my email but I schedule my time. I’m going to the beach because I’m sitting on a beach in Hawaii. I’ll check my information but I don’t check it like I do when I’m sitting on my desk working. Time management it important. I allow myself a lot of time because even last week, I was running hard. I was struggling early in the morning, facing the company, lots of meetings, going to Rotary, going to community events, starting the morning with my classes over at the university or whatever I’m doing, and I finish at nine o’clock at night. So, I just take it to Matt because I was going the State of the City Dinner with the Chamber of Commerce. By Thursday last week, I hit a wall and I was tired. So you have to find the balance. Everybody, not just the entrepreneur or owner, of how you’re doing with your whole life balance because you have to keep yourself well in order to be a good leader. Jason: Absolutely. My recently added for our C hackers, a health secrets training, simply because I found that health is the number one thing that impacts the productivity. An excuse that we get from entrepreneurs a lot was, “Oh, I just don’t have time.” They have almost doubled the amount of time if they’re taking care of themselves properly. Their brain is just that much more effective. Melissa: If you go to yoga for an hour, you’re not on your phone, you’re not on your email. Jason: You’re right. You’re disconnected. Melissa: You [...] can read the phone in your car. You just take your phone if you’re going out in an easy hike, if you’re going distance in that thing, but to be able to go and listen to music, too, on [...], people say sound and meditation. If you can do music meditation and it works really well. I just spent some time with a good friend in [...] and we had so much fun playing our playlist and singing the songs, and then how did we remember the words to this song? But your mind is doing so much. What music does is it kind of steals your heart and soul. If you ever are going through something, get yourself to music and let the music take you to a different [...] and property management. That happens a lot. I always tell my staff, “Get out from your desk, move or walk around the block, change your environment. Grab your iPhone, put on a song and walk around the block singing the words. It changes your whole intake of how you’re going to treat the next customer or the next co-worker. Jason: I love it. Let’s connect this to science and here is why that stuff is so effective. I’m a huge audiophile, I love music, I had a band in college, I bought [...] songs. I love music, but when you play instruments, when you play music—there’s videos on this—your entire brain lights up. Both sides of the brain are like fireworks when you’re playing an instrument or really engaged in music. When you connect your right and left hemispheres in your brain, when those sides of your brain are both firing, it significantly lower stress. In fact, I went and did EMDR therapy on the recommendation of my business coach, for a year. EMDR therapy is an eye movement therapy. The idea behind it is they use it to eliminate PTSD in soldiers and stuff like this. As entrepreneurs, my coach is saying, “You have some PTSD, Jason. Let’s be honest. You guys deal with a lot of stress. You’ve got some of this. Go get an EMDR therapy and talk about you assistant, they quit or talk about this, get this stuff taken cared of. What is cool is that EMDR therapy is based on the idea that there is bilateral stimulation, so stimulating both sides of the brain back and forth while tuned in to an idea that causes stress or PTSD or some sort of issue. I’m not making light, by the way, of those who have legit PTSD, but the stress that we have as entrepreneurs, it will tone that down and it kills that. It helps you see it with a fresh perspective and helps correct and eliminate that emotional stress response. Here’s what’s magical about walking. Walking is bilateral stimulation. Exercising increases the stress response in the body. It just does. That’s part of exercise. But walking oxygenates the body but does not increase the stress response. It actually lowers it because it’s causing bilateral stimulation. Left, right, your body keeps moving, and each step causes bilateral stimulation. So, if you have anxiety, if you have a stressful call or whatever, going for a walk until that goes down is really magical and amazing. So I go for a walk in the evenings if I had a stressful day. I start my day usually a lot of times with a walk, making sure that I walk around. It help digestion, it seriously helps cognitive function by getting your brain to lower its stress response. It’s like a serious hack and walking sounds so simple. Music more than any other thing can directly impact emotions. That’s why in movies, they’ll manipulate your emotions using the score of the movie because it makes you feel what’s going on. So, if you want to change your feeling, you can use music because different songs can help you lean into sorrow if you need to feel that sorrow, music can help you lean into positivity or shift out of... Melissa: Brings back memories. But [...], somebody having a bad day because in property management we done have all positive days. And sometimes, especially because where we are now in Northern California, we had a lot of rain. [...] when we were getting ready to set up, it’s not really our friend. Property management, rain, leaks, putting people up at hotels, you’ve got a lot coming at you and nobody wants to be displaced, especially if it’s the holiday season, we have bad weather and it rains then. So, I [...] “Okay, what have you done for a time out? What are you doing? Because you need to go have a time out. Just go.” We do fun Fridays, ice cream socials, aloha Fridays because we are actually [...] together in an office [...] downstairs, so we do see each other everyday. I may not but the staff works together [...] and works in an office. Having seen this which Christine’s been really good about it. Matt, last Friday [...] his dog is a new rescue. She’s adorable. Her name’s Mia and she’s a very [...]. She’s a very good dog and he said, “Hey, do you mind if I bring her out in the open? I don’t have any appointments.” People actually brought some really [...] good, fun Friday and made them feel really good by having a dog there. Who knew? Jason: Almost like one of those service animals. Melissa: Yeah. I was waiting for his to say, “Mom, I can bring the dog to work because this is a service animal.” I said it was okay. Jason: Yeah. I love the idea. Walk and talk is my own personal therapy. If I have something I need to talk through, I talk to somebody about it while I’m walking. I’ll just walk around. It’s magic. These are all really cool ideas. Melissa, it sounds like you have a phenomenal team. You’ve got a wealth of knowledge. For those that are listening, that maybe are struggling to achieve their growth, they’re really stuck in a rut, they’re having a difficult time maybe with their team, they’re just having trouble seeing over the weeds, so to speak, what sort of advice would you give them, maybe a first step to take, some step towards all the [...] Melissa: I would say don’t be afraid to [...]. Pick up the phone and call another property manager. Call you, check-in with you. People forget the touch of the voice, too, and someone knowing. Most people have been through the same thing. When you [...] the NARPM family or you or your users together share one thing that’s going on, it’s amazing when I see the post that goes on in your Facebook page and the solutions people are willing to offer. But sometimes picking up the phone and saying, “Look, I’m having a really hard time with this. I have a client doing it.” I’ll tell you to fire them. But if you have [...] a really hard time, then maybe you just need to [...] another professional. NARPM has over 5000 members. Don’t think you’re going to take the world on your own. If you’re going to grow, you have to be willing to change, to be willing to have a mentor, somebody you can lean on. You got to use the research that you’re offering as a national vendor and the research that you’re offering, we have to use those resources so that we can actually learn to grow because you’re going to give us tips from the outside of property management looking in at what we’re doing. You’re already doing that just sharing with me. So, if you’re willing to make the change and to reach out for growth ideas and ask how to implement because I’ve already done it. I’m willing to share. Why reinvent the wheel? Jason: I love it. You mentioned be willing to change, find mentors, reach out and get a mentor, reach out to other property managers. I think the crux of all these things, kind of energetically that you’re talking about here, underneath all of this, I think a property manager or anyone listening to the show, they need to recognize that the power being able to do these things come from vulnerability. It takes a certain amount of vulnerability as an entrepreneur to say, “I have a problem and I need support.” Whether you are reaching out to a mentor, it takes humility or vulnerability in order to be willing to go out and learn more like you’ve talked about. I think sometimes we want to put on this facade or we think we need to be the one that we’re always okay. I think it’s okay to not be okay. I think there’s power in that and I think there’s connection in that if we’re willing to be vulnerable, because I don’t have all good days. I have sent messages to my business coach or my mentors and saying, “Hey, I’m really struggling. This is hard for me dealing with this.” Sometimes, it’s all we need is just to be able to tell somebody that and acknowledge and be vulnerable, but I think when we’re vulnerable with others. Those that are inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group, I encourage you to be willing. Lots of people have been willing to share vulnerably like, “Hey, I’m dealing with the situation. I’m in over my head,” or, “I don’t know what to do with this,” or, “I’m stressed out and it’s been a really a rough day. What do you guys do or recommend?” or, “Could somebody talk to me on the phone today?” I think there are so many people that because the way we get momentum as entrepreneurs, the way we get fulfilled, is by giving it to others. Melissa: Helping others. That’s right. I was national president of NARPM. My team was sharing a vision and I’m still sharing a vision. Our visions can open up a lot of doors and windows for a lot [...]. Jason: There’s nothing that’s been more powerful for me when I’m having a rough time in business or as an entrepreneur or in life than to reach out and be able to help or support a client or help somebody else. I look for those opportunities when I’m stressed [...] somebody an opportunity to support you because you’re helping them by being vulnerable and allowing them to do that. Melissa: That works with our staff, our team members, to reach out and say, “Okay, I’m actually having a really hard time. I’m overwhelmed, I’m tired, I’m going to take [...] refill my bucket up. [...] keep that to your team. They’re only human, they understand. Jason: Absolutely. That’s the entire team’s job. My team’s job is to lower my pressure and noise. That is their whole purpose for having a job. But they can’t do that unless I’m honest. Melissa: Yeah and it’s working well. Jason: Yeah, it does. It works really well. The bigger my team gets, the bigger my company gets, the easier my life gets. I know that sounds backwards for a lot of people, especially those in the 200–400 doors sand trap because as they’re approaching the 400–500 units, their life gets crazy and hectic and it’s probably because they’ve built the team the wrong way. They built the system in which it’s transactional leadership and they’re throwing tasks at people. Everyone has to come to them for feedback instead of giving them objectives and trusting them. It’s something that takes work to shift out of. Melissa: It goes back to where we started [...]. The key to success [...] Jason: Full circle. Get out of the way. Sometimes we can’t see it. As entrepreneurs, I think no matter how evolved we are or how effective we are or how much coaching we’ve had, we always have our own blind spots and we always need that outside perspective. I need it all the time and your team can provide some of that if you ask them for honest feedback. I ask my team all the time like, “Hey, I’m thinking of sending this email out to all our clients,” and my writer, Adam, who’s very diplomatic, will say, “Let we reword that for you.” Melissa: That’s a good point. [...] I do that, too. If I’m about to send an email, or I end up firing a client or put them on a ‘this isn’t working,’ someone else on your team to say, “How does it sound as if you’re just receiving it?” That’s it. That’s a good point, too. Rely on that for that. Jason: This has been an awesome conversation. I’m sure we could talk for hours. It’s just really fun to connect with you. I appreciate you coming on the show. What takeaway do you want to leave people with and how can they get in touch with you if you like them to do that? Melissa: I would say to rely on the vendors yourself. You light up when we started the very beginning of our just getting ready for the podcast. When you started getting ready to do this, to share with your listeners, you light up. I think we need to rely on our resource with you and what you can bring to us property managers. I think that the other takeaway would be to be really in-tune with ourselves to know when we’ve had enough to take that break, and then to really take a hard look and maybe today or tomorrow, go down and really be grateful, and come within gratitude to thank the people we work with everyday. Together, I would say we can make a difference. So, keep that attitude and really respect for your team, the clients, the people you work around. Jason: Love it. How can people find out more about Melissa Prandi or get in touch? Melissa: My email probably is best. I am an emailer. It’s melissa@prandiprop.com. I’m great with [...] resources, I’ve written two books, and I love to share ideas. Let’s just keep going. Let’s keep growing and making our industry bigger, better, and more respected as we all become better at property management. Jason: Absolutely. I fully believe in the philosophy of the I mindset that the industry’s number one challenge right now is not your competition. It’s awareness. The industry’s second number one challenge is just perception of the industry as a whole. By helping your local competitors level up, you’re helping yourself. You’re helping the whole industry. Melissa: Raising the bar up to what one’s expecting the quality of what we’re providing out there, people on rental property. Jason: Absolutely and good property management can change the world. You guys get to have such a massive ripple effect. You’re impacting hundreds of thousands of tenants, homeowners and their families, and that ripple effect keeps going and that’s big. Melissa: I’ve seen how much that actually NARPM complement people, how much we give back into our community because we do that every year at charity. We’re giving back in more ways than just that. Jason: Absolutely. The ripple effect is big and I’m grateful that really awesome property managers like yourself allow me the opportunity to be part of that. That’s inspiring and exciting for me. All right, Melissa. It’s been great having you on the show and we’ll have to have you back soon. Melissa: Absolutely. See you in NAPA, the [...] NARPM conference [...]. Jason: We’ll see you in NAPA. All right. Melissa: See you soon. Thank you. Jason: Okay. Bye-bye. All right that was a phenomenal interview. Really fun to talk about that stuff, all things I’m very passionate about and Melissa is obviously very passionate about as well. If this episode was interesting or useful to you, please give us a feedback in iTunes if you’re listening there. We would love if you like and subscribe to our channel on YouTube. That would be awesome if you’re watching us there. If you’re seeing this on Facebook, then share it. We appreciate you. Make sure you get inside of our awesome community for property management entrepreneurs, which is the DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. By joining, we’re going to give you some free takeaways including The Fee Bible, a list of good vendors you should be using, that are the best in the industry, that get the best feedback in our group, and we’re going to give you some other free gifts if you provide your email when you sign up for that group. Make sure you get inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group. At some point, you may want to reach out to our team and talk to us or myself about growing your business. If you’re feeling stagnant or stuck, or you feel like you could use some additional support, that’s where we do at DoorGrow. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Episode 5: Is Emotional Eating Affecting You & Your Family? EE Basics with Melissa BoleslawskiWhat is emotional eating?Are YOU an emotional eater?Chances are YOU ARE and it’s sabotaging your ability to reach your wellness goals.Special guest and emotional eating expert Melissa Boleslawski helps us shed the shame around emotional eating and provides education and tips around managing and overcoming emotional eating, starting with this question:When you see food, think about food, eat food, or are surrounded by food, is there an emotion that is evoked? How do you feel in these circumstances, and WHY?Jenny & Melissa discuss how to identify emotional eating, how it effects your wellness, tips to overcome EE, and how to talk to your kids about food to break destructive emotional eating patterns, breaking it down into the following topics:how to identify if you are an emotional eaterthe difference between emotional eating, disordered eating, and eating disordersusing food as a rewardnavigating food during family, cultural or holiday traditionsmindless and boredom eatingthe damaging effect diet culture has had on emotional eatingthe struggle of dealing with unhealthy eating habits into our kidstips on creating healthy eating habits with your kidshow to speak to your kids about food without shame or guiltAND SO MANY MORE GOLDEN NUGGETS!Want more knowledge bombs around emotional eating from Melissa?You can find her on Instagram at @_melissa_boleslawski_ or search for Melissa Boleslawski on Facebook!______________________________________________________________________________ Want a complimentary FREE 30 MINUTE COACHING SESSION with Jenny? Leave a 5-star iTunes review for Shed the Shame, screenshot it and send it to jwhitens@gmail.com to schedule your FREE session! Join Jenny's Flexible Food & Fitness Facebook Group here for tips and tricks! Let's connect: IG: @jen.dubbya FB: Jenny Whitens Twitter: @jwhitens www.jenwhitenswellness.com email: jwhitens@gmail.com

Hello and welcome!Today’s episode is called: “How To Get Comfortable With Being Vulnerable - Interview with Author Melissa Venable.”Melissa published her first book “Finding FabYOUlous” last year and she joined me to talk about the book itself and also to talk about the process of writing and publishing.This interview is gold for an aspiring writer...!If you’d prefer to watch the video version of this interview, you can do that at this link: http://www.mymessageislove.com/blog-articles/interview-with-author-melissa-venableEnjoy!********AOIFE:Hi everyone. I'm Aoife O’Leary and I am the creator of MyMessageIsLove.com and My Message Is Love is a writer's website. It’s for you if you want to write a book, if you're already writing, if need editing or copywriting services. Also it's got life musings in it because: all the good stuff!I have a special guest with me today. This is Melissa Venable and she is a writer and she just published her first book, “Finding FabYOUlous”. I'm going to read the subtitle because it's so cool I want to get it right: “A self-help with sass guide to finding, celebrating and capitalizing on the fabulousness that makes you YOU!So, thank you for being here, Melissa, and huge congratulations on your book!MELISSA:Well, thank you! I'm excited to be here to tell you all more about it!AOIFE:Absolutely! So let's start! Tell us about the book and tell us what it's about and who it's for and I have a whole load of other questions too…MELISSA:It’s called “Finding Fabulous” but with y-o-u instead of “u” in the normal spelling and the reason I did that is because this book is all about helping the reader get back to the person they were truly created to be before society and the world and everybody else, you know, with their input started piling all of their roles and their desires on the person.So it's just peeling back those layers and getting back to the person that you were truly created to be. Finding your true passions, your true desires and bringing those to life and letting them do their work in your life and in the world, because I feel like when we do that that's when we're going to be able to have the most impact and make the biggest difference in our families and our own personal lives, but in the world at large.So that's what it's all about.AOIFE:Yes! I know from reading this book that you have a lot of your own life stories within it, so did you have this idea for the book a little while ago or many years ago or was it recent?MELISSA: You know I, gosh, that was one of the biggest challenges with the book - was bringing kind of my own life stories into it because I mean, I'm not gonna lie there's some yuck in there, you know? I mean, things that are not real pretty to uncover and to talk about and write about and then to have other people read about.But at the same time I've also learned that my biggest messes have turned into my greatest messages, you know, and my tests have been my testimony, so that's why I always refer to myself. I'm like, when I'm introduced to something I'm like “from trainwreck to trainer” because I've been the train wreck - I know what it's like to have a life without control and that's hard and that you struggle, but I've come out of that and I'm living a truly fabulous life now.But I'm also nothing special. if I can do it anybody can do it, so that's what I wanted to make sure that this book – that message that it got out: That if you've gone through stuff – as we all have - you can turn it around and you can get back to who you were truly meant to be. You can make right that situation and have a really fabulous life as well.So, I've had the idea to write the book for probably 4 to 5 years, but I had the idea but didn’t necessarily have the guts. So it took a little while kind of processing through some of that. It's like, you know, if I'm going to do this I’m going to have to be willing to share you know the train wreck moments so people can truly understand that I have been there done. My thing now is “been there, done that, wrote the book!”It takes a little bit of courage to kind of, you know, be willing to put yourself out there and be vulnerable in that way. So the idea was there probably 4 or 5 years ago but the last 18 months I really got serious about like, “No, you know what? I am going to do this. I think it can help people and so I'm going to do this.”So, yeah, it's been percolating for a while…AOIFE:Did you have a particular reader in mind when you were creating your book?MELISSA:Yeah, you know I think anybody will love my book, and I mean, I hope that's true, but really, the demographic I really hope to hit was probably in my mind. My ideal reader was somebody who is maybe midlife or maybe not quite that, but 35 to 55. Somebody in that age range that was going through some transitions in her life, who was thinking, “You know, there's got to be more to it than what I'm doing right now.”Maybe feeling just kind of a little bit of unease, you know? Maybe they're going through something hard and they need some hope and they need some strategies to get through that, or maybe they're just feeling a little discontent, like, “there's got to be more to life than what I'm doing now every day, day in and day out.” So I think that that's really who my book is geared to and I think who will benefit the most from it.AOIFE:Did you feel that writing with a particular kind of sense, rather than a particular person in mind, but a sense, did that change the direction or your the way you?MELISSA: It did, it just gave me clarity. I wasn't trying to write to the masses, you know. This book is not going to appeal to my 19-year-old son, though he'sread it, to give him credit. He has read it. But, you know, it’s probably not his thing.When I thought about the person that I truly wanted to speak into the heart of: a woman, maybe 40, maybe feeling a little discontent or having been going through something difficult - a divorce, a career change, something like that. So, the person I wanted to most give hope to - when I thought about that person it really helped me dial in the message and get a lot more clear on how I wanted to deliver that. So I think that was hugely beneficial and when I would start to get off track or feel like I was kind of going down a rabbit hole, I would start to bring myself back to who that person was and who I was writing to, and that would really help me get back on the on the right course for the book.AOIFE:So you had the idea for the book and then it was percolating in your mind and over the last 18 months was really when you knuckled down to do the work. So was there something that happened in the middle there? Or a decision point or what inspired you?MELISSA: Yeah I mean, I kind of think it was a midlife crisis. I turned 47 and something about turning 47 - I mean not like 47 is some magicalnumber - but it's like something in my head click, “Oh my gosh, I'm3 years away from being 50 and if I am ever gonna do some of these things that I say I want to do I need to getcrackin’”.And also I kind of hit a point in my life where … In mybook I talk about my struggle with an eating disorder, I talk about my struggle to get out of an emotionally and physically abusive marriage. I talk about those things. But I'm at a point in my life now that those things are far enough behind me that I can talk about them without the pain and without the angst that they bring up and in a way that I think is helpful now.Once I got to that point I was like, “Okay, now it's time. I worked through that and I'm beyond that now, so I think now is the time that I could take what I learned going through all that and package it in a way that can be helpful to other people - even if they are in obviously very different situations.”I just think it took a little while. I had to kind of get past that and heal from some of that on my own, so that then I could help others kindof go through that process too. In the last 18 months, I was like, “I'm there. I'm fine. My life is on a good trajectory now. I love my cat. Now is the time and I'm gonna be 50 in 3 years! Get crack-a-lackin' on this, so I think that it's just a kind of a culmination of those things coming together all at once.AOIFE:How was it to write these personal things and share these personal stories- because I have to say that's something that I still shy away from – and also, did you set boundaries around that for yourself or were there places that you were not willing to go? How did it all feel?MELISSA: I think, sure, there are probably still things that are not in my book and those are probably just things that are just going to be with me, you knowthey're mine. I didn't really think some of those would be beneficial to the reader anyway so that doesn't need to be included.I did have some boundaries of what I was and was not willing to share, but when I approached it I just kept thinking, “Yeah, this is hard. This was hard stuff that I went through and these steps I had to take and the therapy that I went through and all those things that I had to go through in order to have this experience.”I'm like if it's helpful, though, if it has the potential to help somebody elsethen I want to be able to include that. I had to get comfortable with being vulnerable because there is stuff in there that it's like, “Woooooo…. Yeah… now my parents have read this book!!”Yeah, but you have to be willing to be vulnerable and be open about it. I just kept thinking in my head - the thing that kept me on track – is if I feel like this is genuinely gonna have the opportunity to benefit somebody else, then I want to include it, so that just the kind of spin that I had the entire time.But yeah, it was a little hard sometimes, but now look the book is out and I'm getting feedback I am just so glad that I included some of those parts because I feel like those are the things people are coming to talk to me about those are the things that they bring up – those harder moments are what touched them and what have really inspired and helpedthem. So I'm glad that I included those.AOIFE: Yeah it's our humanity. Even if the circumstances are different, we all understand pain and understand those feelings of really being at your lowest.MELISSA:Right, right.AOIFE:So just to shift it a little bit… what was your writing process like on aday-to-day basis?MELISSA: I wish I could say that I'm one of those people that you know jumpsoutta bed at 4 o'clock in the morning and writes for 3 hours. I'm not. Iwish it was. I'm not. I tend to be more productive at night - I'm a night owl by nature.AOIFE:Yeay! So am I!MELISSA: Oh, great! I’m glad to hear that. So, my mind tends to be more active at night, you know when the house is quiet, people are in bed. I can really focus and do my writing then. My process really was – I don't know that I had a process. My thing was I made myself write every single day.I say every single day but there were a couple times when my husband and I would go on a vacation and I didn't and there was one time when I had pneumonia and I was in bed and I was like “I can't! I can't even get out of bed, I’m not going to write.”But, barring those kinds of things, I made myself write every single day. There were some days where I would crank out an entire chapter and I'd be on a real roll. There were other days where it was a struggle just to get a paragraph, but nonetheless I would make myself sit down at thecomputer and write.I feel like that consistency was so important and I think the hardest part for me honestly every single day was just getting started - was just getting my butt in the chair and, you know, the keyboard there and actually to start to open the file and start typing. That was the hardest part. Once I got past that first sentence or two, then it got much easier, but just having the discipline and the consistency to write something every single day. Once I started the writing then I found that it usually it would start to flow. I'd get kind of in that, you know, that momentum going.So that was basically my process - nothing too super scientific or, you know, fascinating I guess, but just the consistency.AOIFE:So when you had your first draft written, what was your editing process from there through to the end? Were there multiple edits or did youhave BETA readers or what was best for you?MELISSA: Yes, yes and yes.I'll confess, so I at first, you know, never having done this before I was like “You know, my degree is in English, I know punctuation, I can edit this thing, no problem!” I did read it several times myself and I did learn that the problem withthat is that as the author I know what the book is supposed to say. I know what it's supposed to say. So when I read it in my head that's what I read, even though I might have two words mixed up or I might have a word missing or something. In my head I know what it's supposed to say so that's how I read it. That's why I think it's so crucial that you have somebody else read your book as well.Thankfully, I have a good friend who is a copy editor and she read it through and I will tell you that it was painful to get my pages backwith so much red on them. I'm like, “Wait, my degree is in English. I'm supposed to be good at this. What is all this red here for?” But it was very, very helpful.Then I did also have some BETA readers too and they would give me feedback, like, “Okay, you're kind of on a rabbit hole here… this is a little confusing” and they helped me tighten it up too.But, then again I read the thing also probably 17 bazillion times myself just trying to tweak it and get it to where I was really happy with it. So I do think no matter how good you think you are - and you are I'm sure you are - again my degree is in English, I'm supposed to know this stuff - It is so important to get another set of eyes I think on your materialbecause they will just catch things that you don't.I'm fortunate that the editor that I did have, again, was a friend of mine so she knows my voice she knows how I talk and how I present ineveryday life and it was really important to me that my book wasauthentic to that I wanted to sound like me. So she was able to read it with that kind of ear. She knew how I sounded anyway so she was able to do that, but she would catch when I would have “and and” in a sentencethat I somehow I didn't see or whatever. I didn’t catch those things. So it’s a little painful to have your pages come back to you with that much red on them but it's so, so helpful.AOIFE:I'm usually the person making the red marks!MELISSA: God bless you! I mean… I don’t like you for those reasons, but we need you so much! We need you so badly!AOIFE:So you decided to self-publish. Was that a decision you made from the get-go or did you consider traditional publishing or what was it aboutself-publishing that made you choose that?MELISSA: Okay, actually no. My original intention was to go traditional publishing and I had a publisher that I’d been talking with and was interested in the book. I was going down that path. The thing that just kept kind of sticking in my craw a little bit was like “Man” – and now I will say it was a small publishing - but still you know traditional publishing this like, that's always what you want, right?” But when I started going through the contracts looking at what they were presenting to me, I was like “Man”, I was gonna be doing a lotof work and writing this book and yet I was going to be making just very, very little on my book and yet I was still going to be expected to do so much of the marketing myself. The more I looked at that I was just like, “This doesn't really make sense to me.”So then I went - you know, I still kind of had that as an option but then Istarted looking around and I looked at some indie publishers, thepublisher where you can pay them and they'll take your pages and they'll turn it into a book. I was like, “Okay, well that would be easy… you know just give them my stuff and pay them”. Except for it's not so easy when you know that's $3,500 that they want to make your book into a book. So I was like, “Okay, I don't really want to do that.”But, I’m a big fan, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with her, but, I’m a big fan of Marie Forleo. She's a business guru and I just I love her, andshe's got MarieTV on YouTube, and one of her catchphrases that she always uses is: “Everything is figure-out-able” and I'm like, “Okay, if everything is figure-out-able, I should be able to figure out how to self publish this book, still have it look like a quality piece of work and professional. I should be able to figure this out. So I just set out to figure this out – and thanks to online courses and you know information I got off of Pinterest and all these different things, I was able to figure it out.It took me more time, you know, I mean obviously it took me time toresearch how to use Createspace, how to format my book properly, how to do all these things. I did hire someone to do my cover because I wanted that to look really good. So, you know, I just kind of went with that “everything is figure-out-able” and I figured it out.And because of that I now have a product that I'm proud of that looks great, I think, but I didn't have to pay somebody $3,500 to do it and I'mnot paying or somebody's not taking a huge cut of every book sale now because of that.Now, will I do that again? Probably. I mean, obviously, if one of the big publishers came knocking on my door, then we'll talk, but until that time I think that self-publishing is a real viable option for people. I thinkthat a lot of authors are realizing this and going that way now. So, don't think that you have to be traditionally published to have a quality piece of work nowadays. That's just not the case anymore.AOIFE:… and you can still get your books in libraries and in bookshops…MELISSA: also absolutelyAOIFE: Oh, are you a B-schooler?MELISSA: Not yes, but I think I'm going to be! Right now I am enrolled in acertification course for life coaching, so I mean, I'm getting a certificationfor that. As soon as that's done, my next thing is going to be B-School, so you know Marie Forleo? Yeah, yeah. I just love that.So I'm going to be, yeah!AOIFE:Presuming you're writing another book - for some reason I have a sense that you have more books in you – So, presuming you're writing another book, what are things that you will absolutely do next time and what are some things you will change?MELISSA: So absolutely I will go back to my write every day. I mean that'sthe thing I just kind of have to do that - I will write every day. I’m fortunate now that I've done it once, I've got one under my belt you know, so now I know how to format a book, I know how to use Createspace. I don't have to re-learn all of that, thank the good Lordfor that. So I will do some of those things again, but I think again theconsistency. I will continue to always hire someone to do my covers. I will continue to have someone edit my book for me. So those kinds ofthings.The thing that I hope not to do is to let the fear and just “Ohgosh, is anybody gonna read this?” and “Why? All this is just a waste of time… nobody's gonna want to read this garbage,” and blah blah blah blah blah.I'm not gonna let that hold me back this time because now I've done oneand lo and behold people are reading it and people are enjoying it and so now I’m just kind of like, “Okay, I can do this. I've done it I can do it and it's gone well.” So I'm going to try - I'm not saying I’ll be perfect at this one – but I'mgonna try to leave some of that fear and angst behind me and just forgeon. You know, move forward with things more quickly without the hesitation and the doubt. Hopefully. My lips to God's ears… we'll see. Hope it works out that way.AOIFE:Actually I was gonna ask you this after a couple of questions, but now seems a good time. When did you encounter any sort of moments ofresistance or “what am I doing?” or even procrastination orany of those human things that hit us when we're creating anything? How did you work through that if you came across those kind of moments?MELISSA: Yeah so I had to get just really, really, really clear on my why. Why am I doing this? And, you know I will tell you that my why for writing my book is I basically I just wanted originally - originally - I just wanted this to be like a fancy business card, okay?I wanted it to open doors for my coaching programs. I wanted it to open doors for speaking engagements and workshops - something I could sell on a back table if I did workshops - those kinds of things.I wasn't even really thinking about it as far as book signings and selling itand all that it was more just something I wanted to help promote otherthings that I had going on. So the fact that it then actually started to sellthat was just you know icing on the cake for me. That was great.So I think when I felt the resistance, though, I would have to take myself back to why I originally was wanting to do this - the people I thought I could help. You know, I have a vision board. I'm all about that kind of stuff, thinking about you know where you want to be in your life and I would just get refocused back on those things. Like, “This is why it's important to me - whether I ever sell a copy or not, I know that it can help me further my work in my coaching, the things that are important to me.” So I think it's just you really have to be really clear on your why and if you're clear enough on that coming back to that is what can help keeping you on the right track - help you to forge on when it's tough, when you're in that resistance and you're like “Nobody’s going to read this junk! Why am I doing this? Oh my gosh, this is terrible!”There were times when I was writing and thinking, “Tthis is terrible. This is terrible.” and I’d go back and I'd edit whenever and take it out, butgoing back to my why is just the thing that kept me going. So I think you have to be really, really, really firm on why you’re doing it and then be able to call on that when you need it - because there will be times, I promise, it’s doesn’t matter how great a writer you are. There will betimes you'll look at this and think, “This is garbage. Why am I even doing this?” It just happens - whether you're having a bad day or something – it will just happen. So just be really clear on why you're doing it and let that be kind of the fuel that keeps you going.AOIFE:Did you have any support people around? In your book you talk about “run through the sprinklers and stay away from the drains”, so you can explain that property better than me.MELISSA: Yes, I think we probably all have both kinds of people in our lives.So… sprinklers… okay, in the book this is how I describe different people. We have sprinklers in our lives. These are the people that love and support us and they just sprinkle their joy and love and support on youand you just blossom when you're in their presence, okay? But then we also have drains - and those are the people who literally being in their presence just drains the energy right out of you. And a lot of times we can just walk into a room with the person and immediately know what kind of person they're going to be.So I think it's very, very important, especially when you're undergoing something like writing a book or an important task that's really important to you, is that you spend as much time as possible with those sprinklers - those people who believe in you and who will encourage you and feed into you and, you know, keep you going when things are hard.Fortunately my amazing husband is one of those for me. My parents are those for me. I have some great friends, girlfriends, that'd be like, “Okay, we need the next chapter. Is it written yet? We've gotta keep reading!” So they would keep me going.And even I have two college-age sons - they're 19 and almost 22 – clearly, not the demographic for my book, but they knew I was writing a book and, God bless them, they were like, “How's the book coming, Mom?” They were really encouraging too -and my stepdaughter. So I really did have a core group of people that when I was in tears I'm like, “Honestly, I’m just going to chuck this whole thing,” they were like “No, no. We need the next chapter. We're hooked!”So having those kinds of people is very, very important, I think, and also being able to erect solid boundaries around the drains, because that's important too, I think. So, yeah, get your support team togetherAOIFE:Did you have, when you were beginning writing, was there anything that you just didn't anticipate? Or you didn't know that something was going to go a certain way or that's sort of surprised you with the writing or anything?MELISSA: Yeah, so the thing that surprised – so when I started writing my book the thing that scared me the most was like, “I am NOT gonna have enough to say to fill a book. I'm gonna have four pages and be done. I'm not gonna have enough to say.” Well, what surprised me was that I actually ended up having way toomuch to say. I actually ended up – and, oh God, this was painful, but - I actually ended up cutting out 12 chapters – 12 chapters - of my book because turned out I had written like the next “War and Peace”.So now I have like almost another book ready to go just from those12 chapters I pulled out of this one. So I think that really surprised me that once I sat down and started writing that it just flowed and it came out and I ended up with so much more than I anticipated. So I did not expect that at all. I thought I was gonna be, you know, pulling teeth just to come up with enough to fill a book.So I think that was the biggest surprise - that I had more to say than I really anticipated.Yeah and I think that a nice surprise is just how well it's been received. I mean that just makes my heart so happy that people are reading it andthey're enjoying it and their lives are being touched by it and they're able to make sustainable change in their lives because of it. So that's just something I didn't necessarily - I hoped for but I didn't anticipate. I didn't know if it was going to actually come to be and it is.AOIFE:Actually my next question is about what's been most rewarding for you about having your book at in the world and the impact that it's making on the people who read it? How is that feeling?MELISSA: There is no greater feeling when I have somebody come up to me it's like, “Oh my gosh, I read your book”. Especially, you expect your friends to come say nice things to you, but when it's somebody that you don't even really know that you know but they've got your book and they've read it and they're like, “I've been through a similar situation” or “I had divorce” or “I'm struggling with a job situation, but reading your book has really helped me gain some clarity and I'm able to get to figure out what it is exactly that I want and now take some concrete steps in that direction”.Another piece of feedback that I really have enjoyed hearing is people tell me that in the personal development genre there are a lot of really inspiring books out there. You can go to any bookstore and there's a shelf full – lots of inspiration. But what people told me they liked about mine is that not only is it inspiring it's also actionable.You know it's like it’s great to get inspired, but then you need something to kind of help you road map, to help you take some real concrete steps to live that life that you're now so inspired to follow after - and they liked that my book not only provides the inspiration, but it provides the actionable steps that you can take too - so that’s really – I loved hearing that; that people are actually kind of putting it into work and that it's it's benefiting them.AOIFE:What advice would you give to somebody - say you know when 4 or 5 years ago you were starting to the ideas and then in the last year and a half you've been really like focused on it - so and if you go back say from 4 years go to 1 and a half years ago. For the people in that stage - they want to write and they don't have the confidence yet or they don't feel brave enough yet or they're second-guessing themselves or wondering if they can do it. What would you say to them?MELISSA: I would say write. Just start writing. Yeah. Write.The best way to fight fear, I think, is action. Action is the best way to fight beer and if you start taking action. And yeah, okay, some of it might not be good, I mean I get that - not everything I wrote was good - but just start writing. Start the process. Just start getting some words down on the page and even if that's not what you end up going with down the road, I mean that's fine. At least you're starting the habit You're starting to get yourself in that mental space where you're a writer, but I just think you just have to write.Even, I mean, there were plenty of things I wrote and no one will ever read. They didn't make it to a book. They weren't good and nobody's ever read it, but still just that that practice of sitting down and writing and being a writer - because all you have to do to be a writer is write. You don't necessarily have to be published. You don't have to be.Also, I’m a runner. I'm not a great marathon or anything. You don'thave to be. All you have to do to be a runner is run, you know? So I run a little.All you have to do to be a writer is write.So you sit down at your desk and you start to write and you start to get some words on paper. I think it's therapeutic. I think it's empowering and, again, the best way to combat fear is through action - so start taking that action and then as you write you'll come up with your outline, how you want things to flow and all that. You can start arranging the pieces, but my biggest piece of advice would just be to writeAOIFE:It also brings to mind in the book you mentioned Newton's Laws ofPhysics – that a body that's in motion tends to stay in motion, a bodythat's at rest tends to stay at rest. I did 2 years, maybe 3 years of Physics in school and that’s all I held on to!MELISSA: Isaac Newton! I find that his laws… those are so applicable in this, and in anything. It’s like if you just get started… it's overcoming that initial inertia of being at rest. You know, if you can overcome that and get yourself in motion you'll tend to stay in motion. So once you start writing it'll start to flow - so that's why you just gotta get started and do it!AOIFE:So what's next for you?I know http://fabyoulouslife.com/ is your website and your mission and movement and the book is part of this - and you said that you're getting a coaching certification. What's next for you and where can people find out more about you?MELISSA: Absolutely, yeah. So they can find out more about me at my website which is http://fabyoulouslife.com/ I am getting a special certification for coaching, but I am a coach already so I do coaching and speaking and those kinds of things. I do have - my next book is in the process of being written right now, so I have that that I'm hoping to have out by the end of the year. That's my goal. I need it to really because it's called “The Fabulist” and it's 365 – well, it's more of a guided journal almost, but it's lists that you make every single day that help you discover more about who you are.So I want it to come at the end of the year because I think it'd be something great just for people start at the beginning of the year - sothat's the goal so I'm working on that right now.But, yeah we're also doing workshops and coaching and all kinds of things so just go to http://fabyoulouslife.com/ and you can get all the information there.I'd also encourage people while they're there to sign up to get on my mailing list – which, a box will pop up where you can do that - because then you'll be in the loop whenever something new or different comes on the scene. You'll be one of the first to know. So there's that - lots of great things.AOIFE:Well, thank you so much, Melissa Venable, for being here and for sharing all your wisdom with us.I know that's going to be really helpful to some writers who are about to get started and for people who want to read “Finding FabYOUlous” as well.Thank you, so much.MELISSA: Thank you. It's been such a pleasure to be here and I can't wait to connect with you more down the road, so thank you so much.AOIFE:Bye, bye now.MELISSA: Bye, bye.********* Want to write a non-fiction or self help book? I’ve got a gift for you! A FREE writing course designed to help you do just that! You can get that here: http://www.mymessageislove.com/free-writing-course If you’d prefer to work with me 1:1 on your writing you can find out more about that here: http://www.mymessageislove.com/work-with-meFor any other enquiries, email me at: copy@mymessageislove.comAoife MY MESSAGE IS LOVE********* Note:You can find out more about Melissa Venable HEREYou can buy Melissa's book "Finding FabYOUlous" HERE You might like these episodes too: #7 - 7 Reasons You Should Write A Book#10 - Self Publishing vs Traditional Publishing. Your Questions Answered!#15 - 5 Secrets To Attention Grabbing Stories*********

This Episode’s Focus on Strengths In this episode, Lisa has a fun conversation with Melissa Dinwiddie. Melissa is a multi-talented, creative person who lights up your day with her voice and enthusiasm! She helps her clients to use their strengths to get their mojo back when they feel like their innovation gene has left the building. You’ll find lots of ideas to spark your creative mojo in this episode. Plus, you’ll hear about her “Passion Pluralite” life, as she calls it, so listen in. You’ll walk away with a newly formed opinion of what’s possible for a multi-passionate person. It’s inspiring to see someone who wouldn’t settle for “one thing” or one activity driving her entire career path. As she’s working with her clients, Melissa always keeps in mind her Top 5 Talent Themes from the Clifton StrengthsFinder: Connectedness, Achiever, Input, Futuristic, and Positivity. You’ll hear why this combination of Talents makes Melissa one of the most knowledgeable, multi-talented, creative people you will ever meet.   What You’ll Learn Find your unique you. Melissa Dinwiddie is a multi-talented woman who has many different interests. She knows a lot about a lot of things. She always took for granted that she had so many interests, until she had a conversation with a client that led to a life-altering Ah Ha moment. In that moment, she realized that she had a unique gift, and that her Connectedness and Positivity Strengths made her a natural at consulting and collaborating with others. This led to her career working with clients to improve their creativity – which leads to innovation, increased profitability, and achievement. Use your Strengths. Connectedness and Positivity also enable her to look for meaning and connection all around her. She is always using that information to figure out how she can help her clients. Always say “Yes, and…” Improv class, which is one of Melissa’s newer hobbies, taught her to always say “Yes, and…” instead of “Yes, but…” because when you say it, you keep thing going and growing. This approach generates more new ideas, and allows for more creativity. Saying “but” is really just another way of saying no. It shuts down creativity. It leaves your team with more potential conflict and stifled creativity. Adding many ideas to the big mosh-pit brings forth more possibilities, and will empower your team members. When people are scared that they’re gonna be cut down, they become afraid to speak up (and you might be missing the best idea yet). Understand your Strengths…to overcome them. This might sound counter-intuitive, yet Melissa gives a great example when speaking about her Achiever Talent Theme. In the past, her need to achieve kept her stuck in self-perfection. By understanding how the Achiever Strength has the possibility to (counter intuitively) limit her ability to finish projects, she has developed self-compassion. She now considers herself to be a “recovering perfectionist”. So, if you tend to be a perfectionist at work, remember, everything doesn’t always have to be perfect; sometimes it just needs to get done. Give yourself a break! Lisa adds that the Achiever Talent Theme in its pure form is all about completing tasks and getting to the finish line. She hypothesizes that Melissa’s other StrengthsFinder Talents may be playing into her perfectionist tendencies too. While her Achiever wants to get things done, her Input will want to keep sponging up learning and insights that broaden her view of the project. Speaking of opening up possibilities, her Futuristic Talent will keep her in constant “what-if” mode. The fascination and vision of what can be can also keep you in rework mode. And her Connectedness Talent could have event played into her perfectionist tendencies because she sees connections and wants to share them with other people. Imagine when she’s creating courses and wants to keep tinkering so that every person with every perspective can get what they need. Ahhh, feeding your talents can be so energizing. And, sometimes, they can derail your progress if you’re not keeping an eye on the outcomes you set out to achieve. Schedule sandbox time every day. Our modern lives are super-busy, and often jam-packed with activities and projects every single day (even the weekends). Melissa suggests you spend 15 minutes every day relaxing, like you used to do as a kid. Play in the sandbox, doodle on paper, or go for a walk – whatever floats your boat. She’s proven that just that short amount of downtime can rejuvenate your creativity, and you will have a much easier time coming up with new ideas or finishing projects you’ve neglected. So schedule a short break time every day, and see what happens. Finding your “true passion” takes practice. People often ask career coaches and StrengthsFinder consultants how they can find their “true passions”. Melissa has an answer for them: Go out and try different things. She cites the example of learning to dance, another recent hobby. It took her 3 – 4 years of different types of dancing to figure out that she loves salsa and Argentine tango. In the work environment, you may be in a role you don’t love. Maybe you even hate your job. Look at the tasks your perform, and pay attention to what you actually do enjoy. Then find ways to get more of them added to your job responsibilities. If you stick with it, you’ll end up happier, more successful, and your business will be more profitable. Remember, knowing your Strengths and understanding them can have a huge impact on your personal and professional lives. So go out there and create.   Resources of the Episode To connect with Melissa and grab some creativity resources, check out her website. You can also connect with her on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Ready to live a full-color life? Melissa’s Live Creative Now podcast is filled with practical tips and inspiration on creativity and creative productivity. Feeding your creative hungers is one of the fastest ways to happiness, joy, and self-fulfillment. Not only will you feel more alive, it’s how you will change the world!   Subscribe To subscribe and review, here are your links for listening in iTunes and Stitcher Radio. You can also stream any episode right from the website. Subscribing is a great way to never miss an episode. Let the app notify you each week when the latest episode gets published.   StrengthsFinder Mini-Course For Managers If you’re a people-manager and you want to sharpen your strengths based support, come join our monthly mini-course. We don’t charge for this because we want to help you keep the StrengthsFinder momentum going. Teams who receive strengths feedback have 8.9% greater profitability. Yowza! Sounds like a great reason to join. Source:  Asplund, J., & Blacksmith, N. “Strengthening Your Company’s Performance.” Gallup Business Journal.   Go Live Your Talents Remember, using your strengths every day at work makes you a stronger performer. Go claim your talents and share them with the world! Read the full conversation: Lisa: Today, this show is all about using your natural talents to unleash your creative side at work. Your guest is so super interesting. She's actually dedicated her career to instigating creativity around the world. She works with teams to help them get their Mojo back when they feel like their innovation gene has left the building. She might even change your mind today about how very important play is at work. And speaking of play on the literal side, your guest plays the Ukulele and even brings that into her work world. So get ready. You're about to see how your creative expression can help you offer your value to the world. So Melissa Dinwiddie, welcome to the show. Melissa: Wow. Thanks Lisa. That was like the greatest intro ever. Lisa: It could have only been better if I had primed you for it so that you could have your Ukulele ready to play a little tune. Right. So, okay. You know, this show, it's all about exploring strengths from every angle. We're getting a unique angle of creativity today and we're bringing in strengths to that. So when you mentioned to me that when you first considered your top five StrengthsFinder talents that the one called Input was interesting to you because at first you didn't see that as something special and you. So tell us more about how that went down for you. In your mind, how did you open yourself up to the idea that it could actually be a superpower that you were overlooking? Melissa: I was doing a trade with a woman who was, at the time, my yoga teacher and she's also a life coach and so she was trading coaching. She was giving me some coaching and I was creating a website for her. It was maybe the third time that she had asked me about how to do something inside of a WordPress website, upload an image or create a new page or something, and I was showing her. And then she said, well, what if I want to do, you know, x, Y, z? And I said, oh, well there's three different plugins that I know of for that. And she looked at me and she said, how do you know all this stuff? And I said, I don’t know, I just, I made my own website a number of times so I know this stuff. And she's like, I think you don't appreciate how that, you knowing all this stuff, like that's not normal, that's normal in a really cool, really cool way. Melissa: Like you could, you could do consulting and you know, Blah Blah Blah. And it, it was that moment that made me realize, wow, this is something that's unusual about me in a good way. And it made me flash back to a moment, years earlier, this would have been back in the late 90’s, mid 90’s when I had started doing calligraphy, which became a huge passion of mine and that ultimately turned into a career. But at this point I was still a relatively new calligrapher and I was at a workshop and it was one of the first workshops I had been to with this calligraphy guild that I had joined. And somebody asked about a tool called an automatic pen. Well, what is an automatic pen and how is that different from, you know, this other kind of pen? Well, I, when I got into calligraphy, I had taken, like I'd ordered all the, there were two big stores that had, at the time, this was really before the Internet took off, so they had these paper catalogs. So of course I had ordered these paper catalogs and that was my bedtime reading. I would go to bed and pour through these catalogs and read all the details about every single tool and every single book. And so I just knew all this stuff. And so here I was, I'd been doing calligraphy for, you know, less than a year or something, and I was spouting off “well and automatic pen is its way and it works in this way and the way it's different from quick pan is blah blah”. And I remember the people looking at me like, are you an alien? Like they just didn't know you've been, I've been doing calligraphy for eight years and you just started, eight months ago, how do you know all this stuff? Melissa: And I, didn't realize that that was, I didn't have a word for it. I was just who I was. So I didn't realize that it was unique or unusual or a particular strength. And it just was this quirky thing about me that I didn't even realize was quirky. So yeah, that, was probably of my StrengthsFinder strengths. That was probably the first one that I went, oh yeah, that I can totally see as a strength because the things that I'm passionate about, I dive in and I learn everything that I can about them because that's what I do and then it nothing makes me happier than sharing that knowledge with other people, so it's a natural for consulting. Lisa: So cool. I love when I have clients with Input. It is so much fun to hear because they love going deep and gathering all the information and learning about a topic and then really directing it to what they're into, whether it's a hobby or work and then sharing it and it becomes such a collaboration strength too because you can add so much value because you realize, oh, not everyone does that. I mean, if I know if I got into calligraphy, I would flip through and look at the pretty pens and that's about it. I didn't know anything about any specs. Melissa: Right, right. Yeah, it, it definitely comes in really handy. The other one, I'm number five for me is Positivity and that one I recognized right away and people are always telling me, Oh my God, you have so much energy and you're such a cheerleader, you know, and that's just my personality. I hadn't really thought of that as a particular strength either, but I see it like I use that every day and the work that I do with clients and the groups that I lead that, that I am always essentially cheering people on. I mean not with like pompoms or something, but you know, I always have a positive spin on things and that it's not pollyannaish. It's just, it's just how I am. I think actually that's quite related to my top strength of Connectedness, which I mean I read that and when that's a strength, what? Lisa: That one always surprises people. They go, Huh, I would never think of that one. Melissa: Never would have thought of it. But I think that really ties in with my Positivity that this sort of outlook of always finding meaning and connection and you know, there's always this sense that everyone and everything is connected and I'm not like a religious person, but I'm it definitely infuses kind of everything I do Lisa: Well, knowing a little bit more about you and how you bring play into your work and how you’re an improviser, that's a high Positivity. It just makes complete sense because there's a fun-loving elements of it. It's finding the good times and things like if you're going to be here on the planet, go have a good time while you're at it, why not? And that tends to be one of the outlooks of people with high Positivity. So when I saw that and then knew that you were into play and Improv, I thought, oh well, it's just so perfect. Melissa: Yeah. And of course the sort of core piece of Improv is to say “yes, and”. Lisa: Yes, please say more about that. How that has shown up at work for you? Because most of the corporate people I work with are completely unfamiliar with Improv. Maybe you can talk about how that looks for people in a meeting or how that looks for people in either supporting each other's ideas versus squashing it if they gave it a “yeah, but.” Melissa: That got really clear for me when I think it was like my first Improv class, I've been doing improv for about three years now and although I've been improvising, interestingly enough, I've been drawn to improvisational creative forms for a really long time. For example, I got into salsa dancing and Argentine tango and those are purely improvisational dance forms. They are based on a vocabulary of movement and each social dance has its own vocabulary of movement, but within that vocabulary it is 100 percent improv and then when I got into music, the music that I was drawn to was jazz, which is an enormous umbrella that covers so many different styles of music within it, but the one thing that is a consistent among all of them is that there have improvisational elements, so it's really not that big of a surprise that I would end up doing improv. Melissa: Now I can connect that all together. My very first improv class, there was an exercise where a group of us were sitting up on the little stage area. We were supposed to pretend that we were in a meeting creating, we're talking about creating some, I don't know, some random object that we made up on the spot and about how to market it, I think. And so the first part of the exercise was that whenever anybody says something, let's, you know, let's throw a big party with confetti and invite the whole town or you know, whatever it was we were supposed to respond with, “yes, but,” and then add something. Right. So we did that for a while and then we stopped, and we replayed the same scene essentially. But this time whenever somebody gave an idea, the response was to be “yes, and”, and what was so interesting was when we did the “yes but” or “well, but” it would turn into just squashing, squashing just that: No, no, no, no, no. And it stopped everything where when the exercise was “yes, and” it became this like crazy mashup and it just kept growing and growing and growing and growing. And when you bring that “yes, and” to say a meeting where you're generating ideas or something and if you can respond to somebody else from that space of “yes, and” it opens up so many possibilities, you know, there's time later where you can refine things and cut things out and look at the, you know, the reality of our budget is limited to x or whatever. But to generate ideas, you have to be in that space of “yes, and”, and people don't like to put an idea out there if they know that there's a chance that it's going to be cut down. Right. Nobody likes that. That feels terrible. So that's a really important place to bring that Improv scale of “Yes, and”. Lisa: I love the example too, of how you used it and actually had the contrast of the “yes, but” or the “well, but” with the “yes, and in the same situation because right, it just stops all the momentum and turns everything. And it's kind of like the eeyore moment. Melissa: Totally. Yeah. And “yes, but” is really another way of saying “no” Lisa: it true. Another thing that you're getting me thinking about reflecting on a work day and how you can have these breakthroughs and also sparked me to think about something you mentioned about your Achiever talent, how when now when you look back on a work day, you can kind of see that when you're fueled up, it's because you've achieved something and felt productive and that you feel frustrated when you're not. What does that process look like for you? And just exploring them and seeing how they show up. Melissa: That one for me, in some ways it feels like as a liability as much as a strength only because, my history is being way too much of a perfectionist. I mean, I am now a card carrying him perfectionist, which means a recovering perfectionist. It's the same thing, which means basically that I treat myself with self-compassion. I was so stuck in perfectionism. I mean my Achiever strength was, you know, so blown out of proportion, there was no balance to it. There was nothing, nothing connected with the Achiever that you know, just sort of say it's okay. You get to be a human being, you get to be human. What ended up happening was, I mean, I call myself an artist. I had a career, a business. I still have a business and our business primarily making Jewish marriage contract. It's basically a side business these days. It used to be my main business and for about a decade while I was making my living from my art, I didn't create anything for myself purely for play, except once a year I would go on a retreat with my calligraphy guild and then I would do some things for myself, but the whole rest of the year, all the other 360 days of the year, the only art I ever created was to other people's specifications and partly or a big chunk of that was because I was so trapped in perfectionist paralysis that anything that I would create, I would think, well that's not good enough. That's crap. And so it became so painful to try to do anything that I just didn't do it. But I was in such denial about it that I told myself, you know, I bought into the story, I created this story that it was because I just didn't have time and it wasn't until February 1st 2011 when I was actually interviewing an artist for my first online course that I created called the thriving artists project and this particular artist mentors other artists who want to have fine art, you know, professional fine art gallery, exhibiting art careers. Melissa: And they get stuck in resistance as anybody else on the planet. Surprisingly enough. And so this artist that I was interviewing would tell her mentees, if you can't put 15 minutes a day into your art, you're making an excuse. And she was just talking about what she told her mentees. But in that moment, I was so nailed. She was, she was talking to me. She didn't realize she was talking to me, but she was saying to me, and by the time I got off that phone call first I got very defensive inside. But then I realized, oh my God, she is right. For the past decade I have been making an excuse because of fear, and so that day, and it was February 1st 2011, I committed to putting 15 minutes a day into making time for the joy of creative sandbox time that you talk about. Lisa: Is that your creative sandbox time? Melissa: Absolutely. That is. I didn't have that terminology at that point, but yeah, that's, that's my creative sandbox time. That is my playtime where in fact, in order to get myself into that head space where I could put even just 15 minutes into making art, I had to set up a bunch of sorts of ground rules for myself and it started off with maybe four or five. You know, it's all about the process. It's not the product let go of the outcome. When you get to the place where, you know, it's not done yet, it needs something, but you're not sure what and you're afraid to try anything because you might ruin it. One of my rules was go ahead and ruin it. And over a period of a two or three years that expanded into 10 rules for the creative sandbox. It's now what I call my creative sandbox manifesto. Melissa: And the sandbox image was because I realized at one point that I wasn't taking time to do art. I'd started making some art, but the art that I was making, I stopped after a while, a couple of weeks into it or something, I just wasn't getting to my art table anymore and I couldn't figure out why because I wanted so badly to get back to making art. And one day I was looking at the table and I realized, oh my God, the art that I'm making right now has nothing different from when I'm working for a client. So it feels like work to me. It was very meticulous. It was very design-y. There was nothing improvisational about, there was nothing playful about it. It was the opposite of play. And I realized it was like this light bulb went off over my head and that's when I thought I need to play. Melissa: I need to be like my little four-year-old nephew playing in a sandbox, making messes, thinking, oh, what would happen if I poured water on this? What would happen if I did this? That's the headspace that I needed to be in. And so that's, what I develop those, those rules to help me get into that headspace. Lisa: It's so cool. And the boy, I mean, you know that in the corporate world this is such a thing for people because you have this push-pull and your mind whether or not someone's specific talent is Achiever. People have a drive to get stuff done is push for the next thing, but then you know you need white space. You have to explicitly sometimes not manage yourself to a goal or you burn yourself out. And there's this internal fight thing and you even sparked for me a thought that takes it beyond the moment to moment push-pull, but even the overall career stress that people put themselves under when they think of finding their passion or finding their calling. Lisa: And I, think I remember you talking about callings as an elusive thing and that it's normal to resist them and refuse the call, that sort of thing. And I'd love to hear… you just got me sparked on that idea to what's your take on work as a calling and what do you do for those people who are beating themselves up over the fact that they feel like they don't have one? Melissa: Oh my God. So that makes me think about a conversation that I had a number of years ago with a woman in my synagogue and I was talking about this stuff was pretty new to me then I was like, wow, I'm discovering this new direction for my life or I'm helping people get connected to their creative side, which for most of us has been, you know, got quashed down pretty early, including me. Melissa: I mean a lot of people get quashed down at age five or six or something was like age 13 when I stopped making art. But for most of us that that gets really squashed and you know, so I was finding my passion again and our passion number 17 or whatever. So I figured out that I have a lot of them and this woman said, well, what do you do if you don't, if you don't have a passion. And I was stumped. I did not know how to answer her question. And it was only later when I was reading an article by somebody who I think she calls herself like the passion mentor or something, I can't remember, but she was writing about how, you know, passions, we have this idea that you're going to have this Eureka moment. You're going to open a door and boom. Melissa: Yeah, that's my passion, I found it. And the reality is, even though I spent, I can't tell you how many times I've told the story of various passions I've had in my life: dance, calligraphy, getting back to social dancing, writing, improv, music. So many different passions. And the story has always been, oh, you know, then I discovered this and that became my next passion. But that's not really what happened. Really, what happened was with dance, I was too scared to try dancing as a little kid. I had some movement classes when I was like four. And then I had friends who were in ballet, but I had this image of the mean ballet teacher with the big stick who would like hit you if you don't do things right or. So I never took any dance classes. And then in I think my freshman year in high school, some friends of mine, we got together, and we took a class at a community center. Melissa: We thought it was going to be, you know, mtv kind of how to dance to Madonna's material girl or something, you know, like the music video kind of dance. And it was actually, it was a modern dance class, which I didn't realize was much more classical style. And we were like, wow, this is lame. So I didn't, you know, I ended that class and forgot about it. So finally, you know, years later after, you know, first thinking about dance, I took a class at this local dance school and that's the moment where I went, oh my God, I want to do this every day. But it was, you know, three or four years of, tipping my toe into different kinds of dance before I discovered that dance school and Bingo had my Eureka moment. Every passionate I've ever had has been like that. Melissa: You have some kind of interest in something enough to try it. And you know, maybe the first time it doesn't do anything for you. But for some reason you go back to it at some point again and maybe the next time you find something new in that and eventually you know, you try it a little more and then it starts to develop a little more meaning for you. And then you dive in a little bit deeper and it's the sort of back and forth thing and it happens, you know, much more organically. It's much more like, you know, there are people out there in the world who feel like they had this instant, you know, love at first sight moment with their spouse or their partner. Right? But most people, it didn't actually happen that way with me, my husband, it took me two and a half years to see him as a contender and, he's like best match I could ever imagine for myself. Melissa: And that's what it's like with, with our passions for activities or pursuits. Lisa: What a good metaphor because it is like, I mean I can see the relationship metaphor so strongly that you meet somebody and then you think, hey, I actually enjoyed my time there, or I feel better when that person enters the room. Then when they leave the room and then you think, well, I'm going to hang out with that person some more, and it's the same with responsibilities and tasks in the work that you do. You can say, oh, that things kind of neat. I've never done it. I'm going to hang out with that thing a little bit more. And then you start exploring all the offshoots of it and it's so much like that at work and people for whatever reason, feel like there should be the Eureka moment you talked about and not the process of experimenting and going, okay, that thing's cool. I'm going to follow that path and all of the arms and legs that it has, and then you find that one thing that's super awesome and really fuels you up and I don't know why it's like that, but it does make me sad because a lot of people beat themselves up because they haven't found “the calling” or “the passion” and I know you use that term passion, plural light and looking at the plural like we have. We love a lot of things. Yeah, you have a lot of hobbies. You have a lot of interests, so let yourself feel that way about your work as well and go explore them. Maybe we can end with that exploration combined with how you explore your creative energy through your doodles because I think that's so fascinating and people will dig finding their own version of what you do with your doodling. Will you share about that? Melissa: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what I know about myself is that if I don't get a little bit, at least a little bit of time in the creative sandbox every day, my day doesn't go as well. It just, it makes me happy. It feeds me, it nourishes me. I also know that, uh, the thing I do first is the thing that gets done. So if I want to make sure that I get something into my day, it works best if I get it in first thing. I was not making, not making time for my creative play and realized I have to do it like before I even get out of bed. So I figured out, well, you know, I can bring a sketchbook and a pen, have it on my bedside table and then I can draw first thing in the morning. And so I set a timer for 15 or 20 minutes and I doodle first thing in the morning and I intentionally call it doodling because I want to be in that space of Improv. Melissa: That space of being in the creative sandbox like a four-year-old playing in the sand so that it's all about exploration and following my curiosity and not about trying to make something perfect or even good. And so it's just been an incredible self-growth experience to do this for the past, well, it's really since the start of the year, so it's been three months that I've been doing this. Every day I spend, you know, 15 or 20 minutes usually with a pen and some paper and a sketchbook, just doodling. It's like a spiritual, a spiritual practice because you learn so much about yourself. You know? Just today, there was a page where I had started something and I got really frustrated with it weeks back because I could see that it was going to require all this meticulous work that I just didn't want to invest in. It was going to drive me straight into that perfectionist place, which I don't like. I don't want to be in. And I came back to it today and thought, oh well I don't have to look at it that way I could come at it from a creative sandbox mindset and not worry about if these lines are perfectly rounded or whatever. And I was able to come back to that piece that I had totally rejected and really enjoy it and learn something and kind of expand my ability to break down those perfectionist walls from this one little doodle. So I highly recommended it. And it doesn't have to be pen and paper. I mean, you could do it with sound, you could do it with movement. You can do it with, you know, they're just so many ways that you can express yourself in, the equivalent of a doodle. Lisa: And I even do my white space. It's not quite my creative sandbox, but just my white space to clear my brain. My office is at home and in the woods and I take walks with the dogs and I just insert them in the middle of the day to give myself that moment. To not be distracted, to not be listening to shows. To not be learning, to not be in a meeting and it clears, it clears the space in a different way. And I'm the uber efficient. I mean I get so caught up that I'll listen to podcasts while I'm in the shower just because I want every moment to be so productive. And so it's that moment where I go, no, I'm just breathing, I'm listening to the wind listening to the birds and just let it rest for a minute. And then I get all these strokes of brilliance in that time and the sandbox time and the white space time. Lisa: I hope for everyone reading that this gives you some inspiration to bring that creativity back into your work day. To try yes, and if that's not something that's been part of your vocabulary, that you give that, some, just give that some air go, try that. It's easy to implement at work. Just show up and say “yes, and”, and your next set of meetings and don't squash an idea even if the squash comes to your mind, let it ride, let it ride and do that later. And let the ideas and the big breakthroughs happen. So thank you everyone for reading this Lead Through Strengths today. Melissa, this has been great. The readers are going to want to check you out. You have a show to tell them about, tell us how they can find you and your doodle delicious life. Melissa: Oh sure. Well, my website is Melissadinwitty.com.com, but that's hard to spell so you can also get to the exact same place livingacreativelife.com and my podcast is livecreativenow, which you can find there are. You can go to live creativenow.com, which will take you there as well. Lisa: Thank you. And we'll put all of that in the show notes so you guys can find it super easily and we'll get you her twitter and Instagram and Facebook links as well. So guys, remember using your strengths makes you a stronger performer at work. If you're always focused on fixing your weaknesses, always stuck in that perfectionist zone she's been talking about today then you're choosing the path of most resistance and you can choose instead to claim your talents and share them with the world.