Podcast appearances and mentions of jennifer right

Jennifer joins us today sharing her HBA3C story! Each birth was a stepping stone that gave her more education and wisdom which ultimately led to her home birth after three Cesareans. Jennifer's first Cesarean was due to meconium in the water, slow progress, and heart rate issues. Her other two Cesareans were scheduled, but her third was particularly difficult because in her heart, Jennifer really wanted a VBAC. After regretting her decision to get her tubes tied during her third Cesarean, Jennifer opted for a reversal and it worked! Once pregnant with her fourth, she traveled two hours each way across state lines to find a home birth midwife. When labor began, Jennifer booked an Airbnb, called in her team, and had the beautiful home birth she knew she was capable of.Jennifer's WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 02:20 Review of the Week05:02 First C-section06:48 Second C-section08:02 Third C-section during COVID10:09 Getting her tubes tied and reversal13:38 Fourth pregnancy16:39 Finding a home birth midwife in another state19:02 Going into labor and reserving an Airbnb24:04 Complete dilation26:37 Pushing and catching her baby31:24 You are worth itMeagan: Hello, hello everybody. This is Meagan, your host here at The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Jennifer. Hi Jennifer. Jennifer: Hi. Meagan: You guys, her story– we were just talking about this before the episode. It has a lot of surprises like, “Oh, I didn't expect that. Whoa.” So I'm so excited to– I've read a summary of her story and am now excited to hear it in her own words. I also thought it was kind of fun. She was just saying her kids are excited to hear her story because they know The VBAC Link podcast too. Jennifer: Yep. It was part of our preparation for the birth just having them hear stuff and hear how births are because obviously, they'd never had any experience. Meagan: Yes, so how old are your kids? Jennifer: 11. 9, 3 and now newborn. Meagan:  And now newborn. We have very similar-aged kids. 11 and 9 and then I have an 8-year-old this year. And then we jump. That is so exciting. I'm excited to get into your HBAC after three Cesareans and all of the fun things away. 02:20 Review of the WeekMeagan: But I do have a Review of the Week and this review is from mcgrace. I actually think I know who this is. It says, “Must listen for every mom-to-be.” It says, “This podcast is a must-listen not just for the mom preparing for a VBAC but anyone who is giving birth and has given birth or plans to give birth in the U.S. Meagan wonderfully walks through personal stories while preparing helpful advocacy tips and a solid dose of empowerment in each episode. If you want to hear people discussing their path to VBAC, if you're curious about what giving birth looks like in the U.S., and if you want tips on how to mentally, emotionally, and physically prepare yourself for the best birth, listen to this podcast.” Thank you so much for that review. Jennifer: Totally. I 100% agree. Meagan: That is so sweet. I do agree with her. Yes, VBAC is in the title of this podcast, but it really is for anyone. Jennifer: Totally. Meagan: And everyone wanting to give birth. Jennifer: Definitely. Meagan: I feel like if I had this podcast when I was preparing for my daughter Lainey, that would have changed a lot. Jennifer: Yes. If I had listened before my first birth, I feel like so much would have and could have been different. Meagan: Could have been different. I know. I'm so grateful for all of the Women of Strength who are sharing on this podcast and who are sharing on social media. By the way, we are accepting stories for our social media because we do have a lot of submissions on the podcast and we can't get to everyone. We would love to still share every story possible, so if you are interested in sharing your story on our social media, email us at info@thevbaclink.com with your subject “Share My Story” and we will get that posted. 05:02 First C-sectionMeagan: Okay, girl. Let's dive into all of these stories. They are all– I don't know. I feel like each one is the stepping stone to this final birth. Jennifer: Yes. Yes. Meagan: And I'm not saying you are done having babies. Jennifer: Well, yeah. Most recent. Meagan: I don't want to say final like you are done. But this birth that you are sharing, I feel like each one came with learning and growing and all of the steps it took to get you to this point.  Jennifer: Yeah. I feel like I was so young with my first and I didn't have any education at all which is common. Meagan: That's how I felt. Jennifer: But yeah. It was a slow, long labor which is pretty typical for a first. I went to the hospital right away and I just had in my mind, I didn't know about physiological birth. I just knew. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This hurts.” I thought I needed to be in the hospital because this hurts and something must be wrong because it hurts. Then I had an epidural and things were slow. He did have meconium. They broke my water and he had meconium. It was that cascade of interventions and it was just kind of one thing after another. It slowed down after the epidural and at 4 centimeters, his heart rate wasn't looking great and they said, “You need a C-section.” In my mind, it was like it was an emergency. “Oh my gosh, I need a C-section.” So I had the C-section and yeah. That was the first stepping stone like you said. I didn't know anything. 06:48 Second C-sectionJennifer: Then with my daughter, I wanted a VBAC. I heard about VBAC and was like, “Oh, that's a thing.” Someone who I look up to told me the dangers and the big risks. They really had good intentions. They really thought it was dangerous so were trying to look out for me, but I was very vulnerable and they really scared me out of it. They were like, “You'll both die if you rupture within a couple of minutes.” Now, after I've learned more, I'm like, “That's not even true,” but at the time, I was like, “Uh, I just don't think it's worth the risk,” so I just scheduled that C-section. I think each recovery was also more difficult. The first one was a fairly easy recovery and then the second one was a little harder and then my third was that bigger age gap. I had educated myself a little more or at least I knew what I wanted. 08:02 Third C-section during COVIDJennifer: I knew that I wanted a VBAC. I didn't want to deal with the drugs again postpartum and the numbness and everything. I just didn't want to deal with it all with a C-section. That was during 2020 COVID year so that was a whole other level of difficulty added in with that year. That was the one where they did a bait and switch on me. I said from the beginning with my OB/GYN, “Would you let me have a VBAC?” They were like, “Yeah. We can definitely do that. We'll just look at your scar in an ultrasound later on and as long as it looks thick enough, yeah. You can have a VBAC.” Of course, my scar was not thick enough. I've since learned and I think on one of your podcasts you talked about it in great detail. But that test is super– I mean, you talk about millimeters on this fuzzy black screen. Meagan: Yeah. Not necessarily something that should be a determining factor for VBAC. We've even had a doctor on the podcast that was like, “No. The evidence is just not strong enough to go off of.” Jennifer: Yeah. I was still in the mindset then of, “Doctor said no so I can't,” so I scheduled the C-section and that one was really hard. I think it was because I knew that I wanted a VBAC and I wasn't getting it. With the other two, I didn't know I really wanted it so I was like, “Well, this is just how it is.” With the third, I was so anxious during the C-section. I remember my doctor down there and she yelled to the anesthesiologist, “You need to give her something to calm her down,” because I was just crying and yeah. Meagan: I'm sorry. Jennifer: Yeah. It was a rough one. 10:09 Getting her tubes tied and reversalJennifer: And then this is one of the twists in my story. That's when I had my tubes tied. Meagan: The big twist. Jennifer: Yeah. I had my tubes tied during that third C-section. Meagan: Did your provider offer that or suggest it or did you say, “We're done having babies”?Jennifer: No. It was suggested multiple times throughout my care. I feel now like it was a little bit of coercion but it was my choice. My husband and I made the final decision as we were driving to get the C-section. Now I'm like, “You don't decide to get your tubes tied when you are 9 months pregnant.” Meagan: That's a hard decision. Jennifer: That's not when you make that decision. Any decision, but definitely not that one because you are so tired of being pregnant at that point.  Meagan: You are vulnerable, yes. Jennifer: So I had my tubes tied during that C-section and then the next day, it was instant regret. I was like, “I cannot believe we did this.” My husband felt the same way. We were both just like, “Ugh, what have we done? Why did we do that?” Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Jennifer: It was really hard to grieve through that. It felt like a loss even though it wasn't. It felt like I had lost a baby almost because of how intense the grief was knowing that I could never have another baby. Meagan: I understand that so much when my husband got the vasectomy that I didn't want him to get. I felt like, “I'm grieving a kid I've  never had but I'm grieving a kid that I had in my mind.” You know? Jennifer: Yeah, totally. It's a very real grief. My husband right away suggested reversal, but I dealt with a lot of guilt about that like, “No. We chose this. My insurance paid for this. We can't go and spend money on getting it reversed. We have to live with this.” I had to work through that guilt and shame and finally, we were blessed to be able to get it reversed two years-ish after. Meagan: How was that? How was the process of that? Jennifer: That was hard. It was like another C-section, the operation itself. It was outpatient but it was a big old C-section scar. The pain and everything was the same and not being able to lift. But emotionally, it was really healing. Meagan: Yeah. Jennifer: Right away, I remember waking up from being under anesthesia after it and I was just crying. The nurse was like, “It's really normal to be emotional.” I was like “I'm so thankful.” Meagan: Aww. Jennifer: I was just so glad. At that point, I didn't even know if it had worked because it was not a guarantee. Meagan: A reversal. Jennifer: A reversal is not a guarantee. There could be scar tissue that blocks the fallopian tubes. Meagan: That makes sense. Jennifer: I think depending on age, they have different success rates but I think it's 80% or something like that. 13:38 Fourth pregnancyJennifer: We did not conceive right away which we always did before, so I was not sure if it had been successful. It was almost a year before we finally did conceive, but we did about a year after I had the reversal. Now, I knew I would have the VBAC. I was going to work for it and try for it and it was during the time before I had the reversal actually that I got really passionate about it. I was like, “This may never come to anything for me personally because I may not ever have a baby again,” but I really grew passionate about birth and physiological births. I read a lot and I got to know about rights. I never had to have a C-section even with the last one when he said the scar wasn't thick enough. I still didn't have to have a C-section. Meagan: But we feel like that when we have providers who go through a lot more training and school than we do just on our Google searches and our classes and things like that. It feels that way. It feels like we don't. They know what's best. We trust them and we should trust our providers. I'm not saying we shouldn't trust our providers, but we put everything that they say sometimes all in a basket and say, “That's my fate,” and it doesn't necessarily have to be. 16:39 Finding a home birth midwife in another stateJennifer: So this time, this pregnancy was with my fourth. I knew I would work for the VBAC. At first, when I had been reading and researching and learning and everything, I knew I wanted a home birth. I was like, “That's so what I desire.” It was just a dream for me that that could be a possibility. I knew it would help with the chances of having a VBAC just with what I'd learned about hospital practices and stuff. So I met with some midwives in New Mexico where we live and they said– I met with several and they all said, “Law here doesn't let us do a home birth after multiple C-sections. We can do it after one but not multiple.” I was just trying to be really open and praying that the birth would be how it was supposed to be. I was like, “Okay. We'll just do the hospital and I'll be ready to stand up for myself. I'll know all of my rights and I'll know all of my info and I'll just say, ‘I'm not having a C-section'”. Then I met with my OB and I was expecting to have a big dialogue. I was like, “Would you support a VBAC after I've had the three C-sections?” I was expecting this back and forth and he was like, “That's a hard no.” I was like, “Oh, okay. I guess we're done.” Meagan: Okay. Jennifer: So I started looking in El Paso, Texas which is just two hours away from us because one of the midwives had said that the laws are different in Texas. We found a really great, experienced midwife there in El Paso. She was very confident and I feel like that's a really huge part of getting your VBAC is your provider's confidence. Not just that they are tolerant, but that they are like, “Yeah. You can do this,” which is how she was. Meagan: How it should be. Jennifer: Yeah. 19:02 Going into labor and reserving an AirbnbJennifer: We did my prenatal care with her. It was a normal pregnancy. Then I went into labor at midnight a week and a day before Christmas. Meagan: You went there. You had an Airbnb, right? Jennifer: Yes. That's the other twist and turn. We were doing this home birth, but we don't live in El Paso obviously, so the plan was to get an Airbnb and birth there. At first, we were going to get it ahead of time, but just planning-wise and money-wise, we decided not to do that. We still could have missed it even if we booked two weeks around the due date. Meagan: Right and that's a lot of money to spend. Jennifer: Yeah. We ended up just deciding to wait until I went into labor and then we'd book an Airbnb. The backup plan was we could do a hotel suite if we couldn't find anything. Yes. Meagan: If it wasn't available. Jennifer: Midnight was the worst time that I could have gone into labor because you check in to an Airbnb at 3:00 in the afternoon and midnight is about as long away as you can get from the afternoon. But it was fine because it did progress really slowly. Even though it was my fourth birth, it was like a first-time labor. Meagan: Yep. The first time you did really– well, I mean you labored. Jennifer: I labored for a little while, but I never got into active labor. Yeah, so it was slow and we had time. We just messaged all of the AirBnbs that would have worked for us and we were like, “Could you let us check in this morning?” They were like, “We have a guest and we have to clean so we can let you check in at 3:00 or 4:00” or whatever. Finally, one was like, “We're cleaning it now and we can have it ready by 11:00.” We're like, “We'll take it.” It was beautiful. It was a great house to give birth in. Meagan: Good. Jennifer: So I labored slowly. It was really slow and then all of a sudden, it seemed like it was picking up. For a minute, I thought people weren't going to get there. I texted all of my support people and I was like, “You need to come now. You might miss it,” but we had plenty of time. I had a doula and my midwife there and my friend, my sister, and my sister-in-law so a lot of support which I ended up just really needing. I felt so in need of support– touch, prayers, drinks, back rubs, and everything that could be. I'm kind of a reserved person. That's not my normal personality, but in labor, it was. I was also really bossy. I was like, “Cover me up right now. Okay, take the blanket off. I need the heating pad. Get me a drink.” I told my sister-in-law, I asked her to change because she had strong perfume and I'm really sensitive to smells. I was like, “Could you please change your shirt? I'm so sorry,” but I just got super bossy in labor. My doula was great. She did lots of hip squeezes and counterpressure. That was so helpful. I remember during the hardest, last few hours, I was like, “How has any woman ever done this? How has any woman ever made it through labor?” I just felt like there was no escape and it was just going to go on forever. My midwife got kind of stern with me which was hard, really hard in the moment because I felt like she was being really mean. My doula told me afterward that she was kind of in the middle range. She's worked with midwives who are really aggressive and with midwives who are really gentle and this was kind of mid-range. I was like, “I guess that's good.” I realized afterward, it was really good. It helped push me through, but she was like, “You need to get out of your head. You need to stop feeling sorry for yourself and do the work.” I was like, “You're being so mean.” Meagan: That is hard to hear when you're going through labor. Jennifer: Yeah, it was. But I think there was a part of me that did feel sorry for myself for going through it. I did need to get the mindset like, “I need to finish this.” Meagan: We're doing it, mhmm.24:04 Complete dilationJennifer: Near the very end, she wanted to check me and I hadn't wanted any cervical checks. I did end up having three total. I had one in the very beginning just to make sure it was really it and then she had checked me sometime in the afternoon/evening and this is why I didn't want cervical checks because I was only at 5 and I was sure I must almost be done. I was like, “I must almost be at 9.” I was only at 5 and I was like, “Ah, how am I going to this much longer?” But then at the end, she wanted to check me again and I did not want to be checked again. She said, “If you're not progressed much from where you were earlier, with the way you are coping, we probably need to go to the hospital and get you an epidural, get you some Pitocin, and move this along.” I found out later that the baby's heart rate at that time was looking iffy. It had been spiking and going back to normal. I don't know if they didn't tell me during the time or if I just don't remember it because of labor, but that's why she was really urgent to check me. I was really resistant to it but finally, I was like, “Okay, fine.” When she checked me, she was like, “There's no cervix. You are ready to push.” Meagan: That's a common thing when babies come down, the cervix opens, and everything is complete. Sometimes babies can do a funky, “Whoa, what's going on here?” with their heart rate. Jennifer: Okay, that would make sense. But I wasn't pushing or anything. I expected– I had all of these expectations. I expected to do lots of different positions and then in the moment, I was like, “I just have to survive in whatever position I happen to be in.” I had expected to feel that real urge to push and there really wasn't. My midwife ended up directing me how to push. She put me on my back propped up on the bed. I didn't want to be on my back because I knew that was not an optimal position for pushing, but I was so tired. This was around 2:00 in the morning the next morning after I had gone into labor the midnight before so it was a 26-hour labor altogether. I was so tired. 26:37 Pushing and catching her babyJennifer: I was on my back and she was telling me to hold my breath and bear down. Pushing was the hardest thing I have ever done. I wanted to blow out and let some of my air out and she was like, “Stop it. Hold your breath.” I could not feel the baby coming down. I felt no ring of fire. I didn't feel any of it. All I felt was the contractions. They were so intense and trying to bear down and hold my breath and not blow out was so hard but it was effective. It was just a few minutes, just a few contractions that I pushed for and then her head came out. I didn't feel her head come out and then her body right after. I had wanted to catch her and my midwife guided her out. She was like, “Take your baby, Jennifer.” Meagan: Aww. Jennifer: So I reached down and pulled her up to my chest. It took a little while for it to sink in that I had the VBAC. Meagan: I bet. Jennifer: I was just in that state of, “This is never going to end.” It was so hard. I was in a wanting to give up state of mind also. I was like, “If they could bring the hospital here, I would take the epidural. I would take the C-section,” at the moment, but I couldn't fathom getting in the car. That was the only thing that stopped me from, “Let's just go to the hospital.” I could not imagine getting in the car at that point of labor. Meagan: Which says something too, right? It says, “It's time to have a baby.” Jennifer: Yeah, totally. Yeah. That was it. It was a beautiful time afterward because everyone in the house heard. It was just me, my husband, and my doula for most of the time in the bedroom, but everyone heard me being very loud when I was pushing and heard her cry when she came out so my kids all came in at 2:00 in the morning and my sisters. Yeah. It was just a beautiful time afterward and was so nice to just be in a home even if it wasn't my home. Meagan: You were in a home. Jennifer: And relaxed and comfortable. We waited to cut the cord until the placenta came out. It was just all relaxed and very beautiful. We named our little daughter Willa which means protection and just signifies how God protected us through this thing that a lot of people think is really scary and really dangerous. I'm very thankful. Meagan: And you did it and there weren't really any complications. How was your postpartum experience with this one? How was healing and recovery? You had three Cesareans. It started getting harder with each one and it can get harder naturally no matter what type of birth because we have other kids to take care of, but how was your postpartum experience? Jennifer: It was really good, much easier than a C-section and really different. There's still hard stuff. Just the pressure and bulging feeling that you have down there, I was like, “Oh, I've never experienced this before. I can't sit up. I have to lay back or lean to the side or something to be comfortable.” Then I kept instinctively putting my hands on my scar area anytime I'd sneeze or cough because that's what I'm used to having to do. Meagan: Oh, interesting. Jennifer: Then I'd be like, “Oh, I don't have to do that.” Meagan: That was probably really nice. Jennifer: That was really nice, yeah. Then not having to be on painkillers afterward. That's a huge thing for me because I feel like it's always dulled or blurred, those first few weeks. You are kind of out of it and both me and the baby were both more alert than I've ever experienced before. Meagan: Absolutely. I would agree. I mean, I was there but it was. It was kind of blurry. Jennifer: Yeah, just a little blurry. Meagan: I was really tired and groggy. You're already tired and groggy anyway after laboring, especially after surgery, but yeah. Jennifer: Yes, totally. 31:24 You are worth itMeagan: I am so happy for you. I am so grateful that along the way you were able to learn and grow educationally. Knowing you personally, you were finding out who you were more personally. You were like, “I have more to offer to this experience” by learning and growing and advocating for yourself. Driving two hours is not an easy thing and to think, “I'm renting. I'm paying for a midwife. I'm renting an Airbnb.” There are a lot of puzzle pieces that have to come together and fit and those can be really daunting. Really daunting, but typically it is worth it. Jennifer: Yeah, so worth it. I've thought about that along the lines of how eating healthy costs more and is a little harder or sometimes a lot harder. It's easy to eat fast food and processed food and stuff, but when you put in the work and the money also to have better health, it's worth it.I felt like that with the birth because yeah. We are paying for the Airbnb and we're paying for the midwife and we're paying for the doula and it was all worth it 100%. Worth it to pay for that. Meagan: Worth it, right? We talked about this many, many times ago. I think it was Blyss Young who talked about how we put so much money and effort into our weddings and things like that, but then when it comes to birth, we're like, “Oh, whatever.” Then we just don't see the value in a lot of these things. So talking about nutrition, eating really good foods, getting the good supplements, even finding the provider, and sometimes we have to pay more out of pocket for that provider or whatever it may be and it's less ideal but in the grand scheme, when everything is done, I feel like it's more unlikely for us to go back and be like, “I regret paying for that childbirth education class” or “I regret paying for a doula” or “I regret finding the right provider and giving birth in a home versus the hospital because that was my dream”. Jennifer: Yeah. You're just not going to. I mean, I don't. I definitely do not regret any of that. Meagan: I definitely didn't either. I remember my husband being like, “You're going to choose the most expensive option.” I was like, “It's worth it. It's worth it.” It's worth it to give back to you. This is a really, really big day. Our wedding day is a big day. Don't get me wrong. It's a day that is amazing, but the vulnerability and the experience that sticks with us from birth I feel like is even bigger. Jennifer: It's just huge, yeah. It really is. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer: It was definitely all worth it to have all of the extras. Meagan: All of the extra, yeah. Not only is it worth it, you are worth it. Women of Strength, you are worth whatever it may be because I promise you in 25 years, you are not going to think about that $5000 that you spend on your midwife or whatever. I don't know how much midwives are everywhere, but you're not going to look at that. You're not going to look at that. You're going to be like, “That was worth it.” Yeah. Do what's best for you and know that you are worth it. You are not selfish for wanting to do things differently or spend extra money or get the education. You're not. It's worth it. Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, who knows but I have a strong feeling it would have ended in a C-section if I had been in the hospital because we passed that 24-hour mark, and now the baby's heart rate is looking iffy and I'm utterly exhausted and ready to give up. I just feel like there's a good chance that it could have ended in a C-section. That's not what is best. I know that's not what is best for me at this point. I don't know if we are done having kids and I know there are more complications with more C-sections. It was definitely worth it to also give myself the location and type of birth and everything that was going to lead more to success. Meagan: Right, yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your journey. Jennifer: Yeah. I'm so glad to have been able to. I told you at the beginning that we've been listening to The VBAC Link all throughout my pregnancy and yeah, my kids are so excited that I'm going to be on it. Meagan: I can't wait to hear what they think about it where they are like, “Whoa, that's your voice, Mom. That's your voice!”ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

All of us on some level, desire a transformation in our marriage. Whether that transformation is a small change or a complete overhaul, We want to experience more joy, more peace, more love and more purpose. The truth is….we are always going through some form of transformation, for there is no such thing as staying the same. The question is, are we transforming into what God desires or something else?--This episode is brought to you by our faithful patron team, who have chosen to help financially support this show monthly. Here is a shout-out to some of our most recent patrons. Nicole MitchellDawn GKimberly SKatharine CCandice GRegena JWe thank you so much for choosing to partner with us in blessing 10's of thousands of couples with free daily prayer emails and this weekly podcast.If you have been blessed by the free marriage after god content, wed love to invite you to join our patron team. Please visit marriageaftergod.com/patron TRANSCRIPTAaron:Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith, your host of the Marriage After God Podcast. All of us on some level desire a transformation in our marriage. Whether the transformation is a small change or a complete overhaul, we want to experience more joy, more peace, more love, and more purpose. Jennifer:The truth is, we are always going through some form of transformation, for there is no such thing as staying the same. The question is, are we transforming into what God desires, or something else? Aaron:This episode is brought to you by our faithful patron team who have chosen to help financially support this show. Here's a shout to some of the most recent patrons: Nicole M, Don G, Kimberly S, Katherine C, Candace, G, and Regina J. We thank you so much for choosing to partner with us in blessing tens of thousands of couples, with free daily prayer emails, and this weekly podcast.If you've been blessed by this free Marriage After God content, we'd love to invite you to join our patron team. Please visit Marriageaftergod.com/patron. Jennifer:Well, this has been a whole month now of the podcast. Aaron:We're doing it. Jennifer:It's awesome. Aaron:We are doing it. Jennifer:Welcome to 2023. How's January been for you? Aaron:Well, it feels like we've been doing better because we're better as in, we've talked about, we're getting into routines. The routines look different than they used to, but we're getting some routines and I like it. Jennifer:Yeah, sometimes you just got to reset. Sometimes life forces you to reset. Aaron:Yeah, hence 2020, 2021, 2022. Jennifer:Every year there's been new reset. Yeah, so what's been happening lately since last week? Aaron:Well, just before ... Jennifer:Oh, yeah, I was going to say that. Aaron:Yeah. I walk in, and I wanted to Jennifer look at the notes and she's like, "What notes?" I'm like, "Oh my goodness. Was one of the kids in here?" Jennifer:There was just two sentences and a bunch of gibberish. Aaron:Garbly. Yeah. Jennifer:Did you say garbly? Aaron:Garbly goop. It was, all the notes were deleted, literally. Jennifer:Who was the culprit? That's what I want to know. Aaron:I'm wondering what else happened in our room. Luckily, I was able to restore the notes so we weren't out of luck, but something that is awesome that happened this week is I got to start Jiu-Jitsu. Jennifer:Nice. The kids have been doing it for a year. Did you know that? Aaron:It's been a whole year? Jennifer:I know. Crazy. Went by fast. Aaron:They're getting really good and I was getting jealous, and I'm like, "I got to get good at Jiu-Jitsu so that I can wrestle with them and them not win me every time." I started this week and I think you're a little jealous, because I think you want to start too. Jennifer:I've been wanting to start for seven months. I feel like out of everyone in the family, Mom gets to make those kind of choices last because everyone's got to be okay if I'm going to step out of the house. Aaron:It is true. We need you a lot. Jennifer:Timing was off, but who knows? Aaron:I think we might try it this week though together, on a date night or something. Jennifer:I think we're going to try it on a date night. Aaron:We should do it. Jennifer:It's just a fundamentals class, so there it'll be easy for me, I think. Not easy, but I'm not going to do what you're doing. Aaron:Straightforward. Yeah. To be honest, it was one of the most rewarding and intense workouts I've had in a very long time. I walk out drenched, soaking. It's disgusting. I'm so wet. I was getting in the van and I had to look for something to sit on so I wouldn't get the seat all wet. Jennifer:That's gross. Aaron:It was really gross, and I'm also really sore. To be honest, I felt really good after the first class. I was like, "Dang, I'm not that bad. I did awesome." Then the second class, I realized everyone was probably being really nice to me because I'm not good at all. That was awesome, actually. Jennifer:Does that make you want to go back? Aaron:Yeah. It was still a lot of fun. No one was mean about it. Everyone's so nice and they want, everyone wants to get good together. Yeah, it just made me excited. Jennifer:That's good for this episode. Get good together. That's what we should call it. Aaron:Get good together. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to growing in it. Jennifer:Cool. Well, something that's been interesting for me was a little bit unexpected, just because we've had conversations about it, but ... Aaron:Privately. Jennifer:The kids started praying for me crazy ... Aaron:Out of nowhere. Jennifer:... that I would have another baby, and it really warms my heart. Aaron and I have talked about this in the past. We're like, we look at Edith, she's two, almost three, and she's been our baby for so long that it's like ... Aaron:Is this the longest gap we've had so far? Yeah. Jennifer:WI think to myself, okay, well if this is all the kids that we have, I'm totally content and happy with where our family is at. Then there's this piece of my heart that I'm like, but if I did have another, that'd be awesome. Aaron:Our hands are always open in that sense. We want God's will. At the same time, we're praying and asking God to bring us along with them. Our kids started praying for it. Jennifer:Every day. Aaron:At Bible time, I'm like, "Who would anyone like to pray?" First prayer, God give mommy a baby. Then Elliot just came up randomly, me and you were talking this morning, just about the day, and I can't remember what we were talking about. He just comes over and puts his hands on both of us and looks at us and starts praying for a baby. We're like, okay, I guess you guys want a baby. Jennifer:That's just been going on a week. Aaron:We will see if you guys get an announcement at some point this year about a baby. Jennifer:Stick around if you want to hear it announced on the podcast. Aaron:You will hear about it if that happens. Jennifer:We shall see. Aaron:For this topic, transforming your marriage, it's hard to say that. Transforming. Jennifer:No, it's get better together, or what'd you say? Aaron:Yeah, let's do this together. Get better together. Transforming your marriage together. We wanted to bring up some ideas, and we actually have seven of them for you. What inspired this idea for you, Jennifer? You kind of wrote down some of these ideas that we've been building off of. Jennifer:Yeah. Well, the initial just idea of, hey, let's talk about transformation for a minute. Marriage came because of a conversation that we had back in December. I was having a hard time dealing with desiring change and wanting change, and being frustrated over things not changing, Aaron:Which also has been the theme for this whole month. Jennifer:Yeah, yeah. I remember calling you, and we were having a conversation about, well, I was letting my emotions out and you, you're being a good listener. Then you said, "Let's transform together. Let's be transformed together," or something like that. Aaron:Yeah. Well, because you felt like you couldn't. I don't know how to do this. I can't do this. That's why we've been talking about this in various aspects throughout this month, but we all feel that way. That's why I shared it. I feel like there's things in my life that I can't break out of either, that I can't change. Then I was just saying, "Well, we have to be transformed."That's the only way we have true change in our life is if there's a transformation. We can't be the same person but act differently. We can't be the same in the same place and yet be in a different place. We have to change. We have to move. Jennifer:I think the tension of the agony in all of our lives when it comes to transformation is we're on one side where we desire the change, because we're frustrated over the results and things happening because of where we're at ... Aaron:The consequences of where we're at. Jennifer:We also know that to get to the other side of change, it just requires a lot. Aaron:It's painful. Jennifer:It's painful, and it's hard to make those changes and those habits, and redefining rhythms and routines, and things that will help make all of that happen. Aaron:I think an encouragement also about transformation, because it's easy to say, we got to be transformed. It's like, well, yeah. How? I think the first step, and it's something that we've been trying to reiterate, is that first of all, we can change. If there's areas in our lives that we don't like, or that we know God wants change in us, we have the ability to, because God's putting his spirit. He's put his spirit in us. It's not impossible, and they feel that way, but the reality is we, are being transformed.Like we said in the beginning of this episode, all of us are being transformed into something. Either we're being lazy or we're being lax, and we're being transformed into something that we don't want because we're just letting it happen, or we're following God, we're putting our eyes on him. We're seeking first his kingdom. We're letting his spirit work in us. We're not fighting it, and we're being transformed into his likeness. Jennifer:The lie is that we're stuck. Aaron:The lie is that we can't change the lies is that there, that we are what we are. Jennifer:We're here in our heads. We'll never change. That's what I was getting stuck in, is like, no, I'm never going to change. You see yourself one way, and it gets really hard to see yourself in a new way. Aaron:Yeah. Believing that we can, like you said, but then also believing what God says and believing that he has something for us. Jennifer:The reason why we wanted to bring this up to you today for those listening is because we kind of had this conversation going on in our marriage, and we know that we're not the only ones who have struggled with desiring change in marriage, or in parenting, or in life, in so many different areas of life. We want to encourage you guys, if you're in that place of desiring change and transformation, we hope that today encourages you.Maybe what we share, not every single bit of it will stick with you or be something that you feel like you need to work on, but I'm sure there's at least one or two. Aaron:Well, and the point is, there's this saying that it says, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Well, if you think about the whole thing, you're like, it can. The goal is taking that next step, just moving forward, asking God, saying, "God, help me get to the whatever the next footprint is." Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:Not trying to look at the goal a thousand miles away and saying, "I can never get there." Just realize there's a journey that we're all on. We hope you feel the grace and the mercy that God's been showing us is that it's okay that we're on this journey, and that we sometimes don't know what we're doing. Transformation and change feels hard because it is, actually. We all can do it because we have Christ. Jennifer:We're going to share seven ways that you can transform your marriage with your spouse. Some of these are practical, some of them are just good old fashioned truth from the Bible. We hope that these stick with you guys and encourage you toward that change you've been yearning for. Aaron:A lot of these things are things that we ourselves have recognized helped us or will help us as we have been trying to implement them more. It's not like we've just came up with these for you. This is things that work for us too. Jennifer:Our experience. Aaron:This first one, I've mentioned it so many times in other episodes, but it works so well for you, Jennifer, but it also works really well for me. Jennifer:For us. Aaron:For us. Jennifer:We get to see it together. Aaron:What is it? It's write it out. It's very practical. The idea is write it out. This first one ... Jennifer:Not ride, write it out. Aaron:Not ride it out. That is a good tip, actually. Just get through. No, write it out, W-R-I-T-E. There's something really powerful about writing things down. Jennifer:We've kind of been doing it all week with the growth spurt, if people have been following along. Aaron:We got our own cards out. The fact that I wrote it down and put it on the refrigerator ... Jennifer:Makes you think about it every day. Aaron:I see it, and I realize I'm like, oh man, I'm not following through with that thing that I said I'm going to do. I'm looking at the clock right now actually. The thing I wrote down was I'm going to be in bed by nine, and I did it last night just about. Jennifer:You're not supposed to talk about it yet. Aaron:Sorry. Jennifer:That's the notes on there for later. Aaron:Yeah. Okay. Jennifer:You guys have to listen to the rest of the episode today to hear more. Yeah, I'm going to cut you off. Aaron:The idea behind this is meet together to write down some goals you have for your marriage. Jennifer:Sometimes we don't even know what it is that we want to change into or be transformed in unless we get it out of our hearts, get it out of our heads and see it on a piece of paper. You go, "Oh yeah, that's what it is. That's what I want." Aaron:These actually, they could be large goals, but something things that are practical, especially when you start talking together, you start realizing like, oh, there's some disparaging thing. Well, you have this goal and I have this goal. How can we meet in the middle? How can we figure that out? What's awesome about that is you figure that out. Jennifer:Compromising. Aaron:Yeah, compromising. Then also finding out, well, what are some large goals we have that we can write down and shoot for that might take years? What are some short term or smaller goals that we can start focusing on now? Jennifer:It sounds like more though, that's more for a couple who wants to dream together. If this whole episode is about transforming your marriage, we're talking more relational goals here. Aaron:Relationship, home life, spiritual walk goals. Goals. You can also break them up, goals for your walk with God, maybe individually and together; goals for your marriage. What do you want your marriage to look like? What do you want to represent? What do you want people to say about your marriage? What do you want to show to your kids in your marriage?Then the next one would be goals for your family. What do you want your family to look like? Represent? How do you want it to operate? For us, we've talked about this. We used to do bible time very consistently every day. A goal for us would be like, "Hey, let's get back to that consistency of doing Bible time every day throughout the week." Jennifer:Then asking each other, "What's the best time to do that?" That's where that compromise comes in of like, okay, well, for me, it'd be this time and let's work that out. I also want to just add right here that my encouragement would be, don't go list 25 ways you want your marriage to improve.Pick one or two, because you want something that you can work towards and feel good about when you're actually feeling the success of it, when you're feeling the change coming and you're making those decisions. If you overwhelm yourself with a lofty list, then your mind and heart's going to freak out because it's going to be hard. Aaron:Yeah. Some of the ways, I just want to mention one more thing. When we write these things down, you kind of said a second ago, it gets things that we may not know how to verbalize them in the moment, or they're things that just have dwelled in our hearts. Maybe those things have turned into anxiety or frustration or bitterness, because we don't see them happening, but they're also never being voiced in a real tangible way.It gives it a place to live. It makes it from this internal secret thing to a real life thing that can be looked at, evaluated, calculated, remembered, and even held accountable to, because it exists. Jennifer:Also just to add to that list, a repetition of seeing it helps you remember about it. There's so many things that we've talked about, and then it's like, once we've talked about it's gone and you forget so easily. Yet if you write it down and you see it constantly, in that repetition, you're forming that memory in your brain to be on it. Aaron:A couple of things this does for you in your marriage. If you guys plan a night to sit down, maybe it's at a date night, which is often when Jennifer and I do it, or after the kids go to bed, or in the morning after breakfast. I don't know, whatever works for you guys. You guys start getting into a habit of planning things together. Hey, we're going to do this together now. It's like, it's not just, oh, let's hang out and talk. It's a let's be specific and focused. It also gives you an opportunity to figure out life together.Now, you're building this bond of like, hey, let's talk about things that are important to us and what that looks like. The third thing is it brings accountability. Like we said, Bible time. Jennifer, you look at me, you're like, "Hey, remember we decided we're going to do bible time?" Jennifer:Oh yeah. Aaron:I'm like, "Yes." Then I stop what I'm doing because she knows that's the moment that we would do it. I sit down. Now we can help each other because we made that agreement together. We wrote these things down together. Now that bond and that commitment is all really good stuff that happens in your marriage. Jennifer:Let me ask this question, if that's all really good, especially if you're on the same page and there's unity and oneness toward working towards some of these things. Let's say you are listening right now, but Aaron, I'm posing this to you. If you're as a listener and you're thinking, okay, well me and my spouse, we're not quite there yet, and I don't know if we'll be able to have that conversation. Is it something you could do individually, separate? Aaron:Well, if ... Jennifer:For a time while the Lord's working on both of you. Aaron:Yah, maybe there's a relationship where it's not as tight and maybe that wouldn't be this season right now, they're not going to be sitting down and writing goals together. Yeah, absolutely. Again, we believe in the Holy Spirit. We believe in what God tells us. A wife or husband, if you're the one wanting to do this, I would say start, your planning and goal setting should be a regular prayer for your spouse.Lord, help me to grow in my love for them. Lord, help them transform into the man or the woman that you have made them to be. Seeing look more like these prayer goals for your spouse who maybe not be on the same page with you to be drawn into it more. Jennifer:That's good. Aaron:Yeah. Jennifer:All right. This next one, we're on number two. We're only on number two. Number two, how to transform your marriage. We're going to take it back to Sunday school. Okay, guys. It's because, if we're honest, we don't always operate this way. Aaron:No. We want others to, but we don't. Jennifer:Okay. Number two is the golden rule. Aaron:Yeah. If we can incorporate the golden rule into our marriage, into our life, oh, man. It would literally would change everything. Jennifer:You're saying. Intentionally do it like it. Well, because we do probably generally think about this at some point, but maybe not. I don't know. Aaron:The golden rule. If you don't know it, Matthew seven 12, Jesus says, "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them for this is the law and prophets." Jennifer:Okay, so question. Do you operate in this with me? Aaron:I would say I try to on a regular basis, but I would say the times that I don't is not good. Jennifer:Yeah. That's kind of where I land. We need to be better at this. Okay. Aaron:Often, the way my kids put it, because the way they hear this is I'm going to do to them as they do to me. I'm like, "That's not what it says." Often that's what we do. We do. You did this, so I'm going to do it. Jennifer:We just mirror everybody. Aaron:Instead of breaking that cycle and saying, "Oh, I'm not going to do that thing because I wouldn't want it done to me." If we just applied this rule more regularly, if we looked at our life and said, "I'm going to commit, Lord, you helping me to do unto my wife as I would wish her to do unto me," man, it would change everything. If I treated you the way I wanted to be treated, if I don't want you to be harsh to me, then I should be gentle to you, right?I'm going to treat you. I want you to be gentle. I'm going to be gentle. If I wouldn't want you to lie to me, which I don't know anyone who would want someone to lie to them, then I shouldn't lie to you even about little things. It keeps going. If I'm going to want to be pursued by you ... Jennifer:You were going to see by someone else. Aaron:I know. I don't know why I was going to say that. If I want to be pursued by you, then I should pursue you. Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:If I want to be encouraged, then I should be encouraging. I should encourage you as much as I would want to be encouraged by you. The point is, whether or not you do it to me, that's what I would want, so I should treat you that way. Jennifer:Galatians five 13 through 14 says, "For you're called to freedom brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another, for the whole law is fulfilled in one word. You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Aaron:If we love each other the way we want to be loved, if I love you as myself, which in marriage you are myself, that's what the Bible teaches, we're one. I'm actually fulfilling the law and it continues on, and it says, "I would never steal from you if I love you. I would never lie to you if I love you. I would never murder you if I love you." You don't break the law. When you love someone, you're actually fulfilling all of the law in it.If we treat each other, golden rule, the way we want to be treated, there'll be so much more joy and peace and power and forgiveness in all the things that we want because we're doing it. Even if only one person's doing it, you're getting 50% more of it than you were before. Jennifer:Right. All right, moving on to number three. Should we say it together? Aaron:Okay. One, two, three. Jennifer:If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Aaron:If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. That's really funny, because it's been our whole life here, right? Jennifer:Yeah. I'm sure everybody. Aaron:My parents always saying that. We always said something not nice. Jennifer:Even still, there's times we want to speak our minds. Aaron:Often, we get angry, we're hurt, and we think that gives us the right to say angry and hurtful things to our spouse. Maybe some of you don't, but we have when we feel justified. Jennifer:I was going to say, because the things that I don't mean to hurt you or be mean, I think I'm just stating the obvious or observing something, or saying something that's true. The way that I'm saying it or ... Aaron:Well, it's the heart and the intention and then the purpose behind it is what's not nice. I was saying critiques are good, this note I put here. When they're brought constructively, so like you said ... Jennifer:Well, not in the middle of an argument. Aaron:Well, and with the purpose of constructive criticism and love, and like you said, not in the middle of I'm mad at you, and therefore, boom. Jennifer:Right. Here's another one. Aaron:We've done it and we do it. If we can practice holding our tongues, meaning being quiet, not saying the thing that comes to our top of our mind when we're in the middle of a heated argument, or we're hurt or frustrated, is so much more fruitful than just letting it out. Jennifer:This is a really big one for making transformation happen in your marriage, because you listed a practical and an action, where it is how you treat each other, but the tongue, you hear that over and over and over again. The things that you say to your spouse, they are not easily forgotten, and they bring up ... Aaron:Especially if your spouse repeats them often, because that could happen. Becoming an echo chamber, here's things that I'm going to continue to say. Sometimes it comes from a heart of I just want, and you've said this, I have to say something because I feel like if I don't, they're not going to change. They won't ... Jennifer:You won't know. Yeah. Aaron:... Deceive that thing. Jennifer:Yeah. All I'm saying is even though it's a small part of our body, our tongues are so powerful. What's that proverb where it talks about the tongue brings life or death? It builds up a home or tears it down. Aaron:He who loves it, eats it, eats up its fruit or something like that. Jennifer:Yeah. We should have put that note in here, but seriously, we could have a great day. We could be treating each other well. We could be hitting our goals, but if we don't practice self-control with our tongues, or thinking before we speak ... Aaron:Well, and to be honest, silence is often better than saying the thing that you want to say. Jennifer:Not the silent treatment, that's different. Aaron:Not the silent treatment. Yeah. Not saying silent as a weapon, but holding your tongue as a form of love. Jennifer:Being slow to speak love. Aaron:Yes, slow to speak and quick to listen is what the Bible says. There's a verse that should put some fear in us about how we talk to each other. It's in Galatians five 15. It's actually the continuation of verse you just read. It says, "But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another."This idea of are we walking in the flesh so much with each other, the way we communicate with each other, the way we talk to each other, and we're not loving our neighbors ourself, we're not loving our spouse as we love ourself, we're not doing unto others as we'd have them do unto us, that it turns into this biting and devouring of one another. Jennifer:Like a cycle of just going back and forth. Aaron:I feel like we've brought this up before, but when we are talking this way, even in an argument, we're chipping away at ourselves, because we're one. We're chipping away our teammanship, our unity, our oneness, and our love. Being quiet is so much better than letting it out. Okay, number four. Stop being easily offended. Jennifer:This was a huge one for us. We started out this list by telling you guys this list was based off of our own experience and what we walk through. Aaron:Things that we're actually trying to walk through, yeah. Jennifer:When we came to this realization that, "Hey, we're actually being really easily offended. We need to stop doing this," it was a game changer. Aaron:Really was. This is actually one of the attributes of love. Love is patient, love is kind, and then it says, "Love is not irritable or resentful." Irritable means easily frustrated, easily offended, like bothered. It's like this. It's an oversensitivity. Jennifer:You walk past me, and you've done something that I disagree with or it's frustrating, or you do something differently than how I would do it, and I just respond. I just snap. Aaron:You snap. Yeah. Jennifer:I huff under my breath and I'm just irritated by you. Aaron:A good way of looking at this is when we make people feel like they have to walk on eggshells, that old idiom that says like, oh, I have to tippy toe. If I just slightly crack that little egg over there, you're going to like freak out on me. Jennifer:Another way this happens is by, if one of us wants to share something, and we say it the wrong way, or our intention is well, and we feel like it needs to be said, but the other person is just easily offended, they can't even hear what's being said, because they're just resistant to hearing. That's happened before. Aaron:I think we become easily offended when we get stuck in a place of loving ourselves more than we love our spouse. Jennifer:That's good. Yeah. Aaron:What that means is I love myself so much that I don't want you to step on my toe, or hurt my feelings, or say something that's going to bother me, or do something that I'm embarrassed by, or anything that's going to make me feel uncomfortable or inconvenienced or you name it. Jennifer:Yeah. The question in the head goes, why aren't you doing X or Y or Z? Aaron:For me. Jennifer:For me, yeah. Aaron:You did this thing against me, and now I am feeling this way, or it comes from a place of insecurity. You're ashamed or guilty, or you feel a certain way about yourself. We take that out on our spouse. We make them want them to be at fault for how we feel. Jennifer:Like projecting our feelings. Aaron:Yeah. There could be so many other reasons for this. We're not psychologists, but ... Jennifer:I could say one thing. When you're not abiding in the word and you're not walking with Christ, our flesh gets irritated. Aaron:Easily, yeah. Jennifer:Bothered. We get selfish. We get all kinds of pride. That's just another way. Sorry, go ahead. Aaron:No, but if we truly love, we will not be irritable or resentful. Always having it out for our spouse, like, "Oh, they always are this way with me." A good place to start with this is again, going back to that, writing it down, maybe having, writing down, "Hey, we're going to work on not being easily offended," and then reminding each other in those moments of a quick irritation, a quick offense.Why'd you do that? Why'd you say that to me? Reminding each other that we're working on it? "Hey, remember, we're working on not being easily offended?" Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:If I bothered you, let's talk about it, but let's not be easily offended, and then going back and forth. I think that's a really good place to start. Jennifer:I just want to add, if you're listening right now and there's been tension in your marriage for any reason, start here. Make this one your number one. Aaron:That's good. Jennifer:Yep. Aaron:Number five. This is going to be a hard one for some people and a really good one for some people: more romance and more sex. Jennifer:Okay, Aaron. Aaron:Okay. I could have said more intimacy. That's what I originally wrote. Then I wanted to be more specific because the wife's going to see intimacy one way and the husband's going to see it another way. Really ... Jennifer:I think we all get it though. Aaron:We need both romance and sex. We need the blessing of what both of those bring to our marriage, both the physical and the emotional. That's kind of how I categorize this. Romance is more of the emotional intimacy, that connection, and then the physical is that sex. It's the physical connection where two are becoming one and the bodies are connecting. They're both necessary, both needed, and we shouldn't do one and not the other. Jennifer:Yeah. Anytime we've intentionally focused on this area of our life and just made it kind of a focus for us, it's blessed us. It's helped us. Aaron:Always. Yeah. Jennifer:It's made our relationship feel more full. We feel more unified. We feel more connected. We feel more interested in each other. Don't you feel like that? Aaron:Well, the desire grows the more we work on these areas, the more we want them in our life. I don't know if you've noticed, but the order I put these in is for a reason. They're writing it down. You could take each one of these things and start putting these down as relational goals. Jennifer:That's good. Aaron:Then they're visible. The doing into others, so treating your spouse the way you'd want to be treated. If I want my wife to be more physical and more in interested in me in that way, then I'm going to do things that would be loving to her, massages and other types of physical intimacy that she appreciates and desires. Jennifer:I see. Not being easily offended has to be taken care of before you jump into this next one. Aaron:Exactly. Jennifer:Got it. You should have corrected me when I said you should make number three, your number one. I didn't know you put these in order like that. Aaron:Well, I did because this is actually an area where being easily offended always gets in the way. If we have easy offenses ... Jennifer:Makes it so much harder to get there. Aaron:If I'm desiring one thing, and you can't give that to me for whatever reason, you're tired, long day, sore, painful, whatever, and I'm easily offended by that, rather than loving you and being patient and it messes things up and vice versa. Yeah, I did put these in an order because they matter on some sense to work on each one of these areas in little ways. They will all benefit each other. Romance, I just wanted to pull out some ideas for this section that the ... Jennifer:You're going to give them ideas? Aaron:Emotional intimacy. It's this feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love. That's the definition, in search of romance. It's a quality or a feeling of mystery, excitement, a remoteness from everyday life. Jennifer:I like that. It's cool. Aaron:It doesn't have to be this big extravagant thing. How can you just make the moment with your spouse special? Jennifer:Special. Yeah. Aaron:Different. Take them away from that ordinary just for a moment. That could be a going on a walk. It could be bringing something home that's like, "Hey, I thought about you today." That's an excitement. You actually like that when I, like a simple thing, I call you up and I say, "Do you want an iced tea?" Jennifer:I love it. That's awesome. Aaron:You're like, "Oh," awesome because that's out of the ordinary. I'm not always grabbing an iced tea, but you felt thought of. Then you get a special treat out of it. It kind of breaks up the day. Jennifer:I do love that so much, and it makes me feel so good to feel thought of in a special way that you know me, that you know what I would like, and it just affirms my heart and my love, and makes me feel like you're thinking of me, which is good. It's good for us to recognize those times that our spouse goes out of the box. Aaron:Goes out of their way to ... Jennifer:Go out of their way to ... Aaron:To try these things. Try be more romantic and exciting and different. Jennifer:When they do it to affirm them and use your words and say, "I really appreciated that," or, "I really love that." The more we affirm each other in those ways of being that we want to see more of, they'll continue to happen. Aaron:Yeah. Jordan Peterson as a quote says, "Don't ever punish behavior you want repeated." Even if I don't follow through with or do something in the way that you might want, there's been times I've brought you iced tea that you don't like, because you have a taste for certain types of teas, but I didn't know that. Then I learned it. You could have taken the opportunity to punish me for and be like, "This is what you got me. I hate this." Jennifer:Oh, got you. Aaron:You could be like, "What? This was so thoughtful. Just for future, this isn't my favorite tea, but I'm so happy that you did that for me." Jennifer:I think that's what I did. Aaron:That's what you did. I thought, oh, thank you. I didn't know that, because I actually didn't. Now when I get you tea or do something, I think, oh, where would she like me to get tea? Jennifer:That's awesome. Aaron:It also has taught me to ask you for future, "Hey, where's your favorite place to get this?" Jennifer:It's like a get to know me. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Aaron:Don't punish those behaviors you want repeated, even if it doesn't happen the way you want, the way you expect, but affirm it and encourage it, so that it happens more from your spouse on both sides. Jennifer:I like that you kind of broke romance and physical intimacy into separate kind of categories here, because romance is so much more of that connectedness and ... Aaron:That emotional connection. Jennifer:It's so important. It's an important part of marriage, but so is physical intimacy. I think it's really important for us to remember that our spouses need us. It's weird that I put that in the plural, just ... Aaron:Our spouses. Jennifer:Our spouse needs us and we have needs. Being there for one another and being willing to make the effort and put our hearts and our minds toward that is ... Aaron:Oh, we're talking about the physical side now. Jennifer:Yeah, yeah. In the physical, just as much as the romance are connected side of things. Aaron:Yeah. I wanted to bring up on the physical side of things, because I know that this is a huge area of struggle in a lot of marriages. It was a huge one for us for many years. It's only been in the last handful of years that it's been getting so much better. We've been growing and getting excited about these things and praying about it more. First and foremost, it's a powerful gift. Physical intimacy, sex is a powerful gift from God given to husbands and wives. It really is.We have to change our minds about that. Talking about transformation, we need our minds changed for true transformation to happen. If we can change our mind that sex is a good thing, because I know many people see sex as a bad thing, or a hurtful thing, or something that they don't enjoy. Jennifer:Stressful thing. Aaron:Yeah. It can be all of those things. If we start reminding ourselves and thinking, no, this is a good thing. This is a gift, that'll change a lot of things. Also, it's a command. First Corinthians seven, three, the husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. On both sides, it doesn't just say the wife to her husband only, as if every situation is always, the husband needs it more than the wife, because that's not true. There's some situations where it's totally different with the wife and the husband, but it says to both.In other places, it says that her body is not her own. It is yours. Your body is not your own, it is hers. Just reiterating this, the power and the truth behind your oneness. You are one body and you cannot control it and use it and as a weapon. Not only is it a gift, but it's also a command. There's some actual really awesome benefits to sex.If you didn't know this, it helps relieve stress and anxiety. I know sex might gift some people anxiety, and I pray for you that you would, like we said, have a transformation in your mind about this. It does biologically relieve stress and anxiety. The hormones that get released in your body do that. Jennifer:It also helps your immune system. Aaron:It does. Those same hormones that help with relieving stress and anxiety helps boost your immune system. Also, when you have less cortisol in your body, that's the stress hormone, you get sick less because cortisol can actually make you, it weakens your immune system. It helps your immune system. It also brings pleasure and excitement. That's just such a good thing. Jennifer:Joy, yeah. Aaron:We need that in our marriage. We need that connection and that pleasure more. Most importantly, sex reinforces closeness and oneness. Jennifer:Yeah. Speaking of oneness, you brought up earlier, just briefly not using sex as a tool or a weapon, and then you kind of just kept on going. I just want to go back to that really quick. I think sometimes, we don't even realize when we are withholding our bodies from each other because of being easily offended, or thinking that they're not thinking of us. Aaron:Well, they haven't given me what I want yet. Jennifer:There is a list of things that could possibly motivate someone to kind of close themselves off and be guarded. When you say weaponize, and you say using your body as a tool, that's what you're talking about, right? Yeah. Aaron:If you use it in a negative way, it becomes a weapon. Jennifer:It also becomes a roadblock to moving forward, to experience reconciliation and connectedness. Aaron:This is not the kind of transformation we want when we do this, but when we are more free with each other and open with each other in this way. It's good. Now, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any times that you're like, "Hey, can we forego tonight?" Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:Again, that goes back to the communication, and that goes back to goal setting together and also ... Jennifer:Considering one another. Aaron:Yeah, considering one another, treating each other as we'd like to be treated. Again, there's an order. Okay. Jennifer:What's next in your order, Aaron? Aaron:Invest in your marriage. Okay. I think this sounds obvious, but ... Jennifer:How much money do you have to ... Aaron:Exactly. Well, just having it's almost like if you were to invest in your education, invest in this business, taking one of the most important things in your entire life, and are we ... Jennifer:You're elevating it. Aaron:Are we investing in it? Jennifer:You're saying this is a priority. This is what I'm going to put my effort and my energy and my resources and everything I've got towards, because this matters. Aaron:Investment means I'm going to spend time and money and energy. I'm going to invest. When you invest in your marriage, you're going to get some of the greatest returns you can ever think of. Jennifer:Generational. Aaron:Yeah. You're going to get returns for a long time with your children, because they're going to look back on your marriage and be like, "Wow, my parents, they invested in each other. They loved each other. They weren't perfect, but man, they tried hard." Jennifer:Because of that kind of example, when they get married, they will have the same fortitude and excitement around investing in their marriage. Aaron:At least that's the goal, right? Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:I want my kids to have the same desire. Jennifer:What are some ways we can invest? Aaron:Something we did a long time ago when we were going through some of our hardships, actually, wasn't it right at that end point of things changing for us? Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:We went to a marriage retreat, and there's marriage retreats all over the country. Jennifer:We went to Family Lives Weekend to Remember ... Aaron:Which are awesome. Jennifer:It was actually really cool, because we kind of rededicated our marriage, and our purpose, and everything that we had been walking through just submitted it to God and said, "We're going to keep going." Aaron:You could try Weekend to Remember. That's a family life event. That's a good one. There might be one going on at your church and you don't even know about it. Just look at if you have a pamphlet or a website, or you can Google it. There's a lot of, we'd suggest a Christian marriage retreat, but marriage retreats, that's one really good way to invest in your marriage. What's another one? Jennifer:Reading books together or individually, and just kind of sifting through the notes. Aaron:Talking about them. Jennifer:Talking about them, but there are a lot of marriage books out there. Aaron:Yeah. Do we know any marriage books specifically? Jennifer:No, actually. Marriage After God is one that I would recommend. We have a couple of marriage books if you want to look on our store. Aaron:A few more than a couple, but ... Jennifer:Some devotionals, some prayer books that you guys could do together, which is awesome. Aaron:You can go to shop.marriageaftergod.com to look at everything we have to offer. Jennifer:There's a lot of other good books too, Meeting a Marriage, See Through Marriage, by [inaudible 00:41:35]. Aaron:Sacred Marriage was a really good one. Jennifer:By Gary Thomas. Aaron:Get into books. If you're like me, I like audiobooks. I can consume them quicker, I can also retain them better. Jennifer:I am not an audio person. I have to have the tangible, I can't even do digital. I have to have the book that I can curl the pages back. Aaron:I know. I love something to read too, but also this creates another thing to talk about and to share with each other in growing your marriage, so you're not just investing in what you're consuming, but also what you're discussing with each other. Gives you things to talk about also, which is really good. Regularly planned date nights. Jennifer:Or even double date nights. Go out with another couple, and you'll notice you guys can start talking about marriage. All of a sudden, you don't feel so alone in some of the things you're wrestling in, because ... Aaron:I think we've brought this up in 80 episodes, talking about date night. We say it so often because it's something that we dedicated it to several years ago, how many? Maybe five or six years ago? Jennifer:It was after we had Wyatt, Oliver Wyatt. Aaron:We realized there was a while that had gone by and we're like, "Man, when's the last time we went on a date with each other?" We just put it on the calendar every week, and we figure out a babysitter, and we planned it. Now, that didn't mean we went every week, but just the fact that it was on the calendar, again, the fact that we wrote it down, meant it happened way more often than it would've if we didn't.Investing in that way. Since this is under investing in your marriage, we've talked about in the past that it doesn't have to be something where you go out or spend money. I would say make this an intentional investment of I want to go do something special, even if it's not every time. Jennifer:Catch each other by surprise. Aaron:Yeah. Set a reservation at a restaurant you guys don't go to often. Go throw axes at your local ax throwing place if you have one. Jennifer:Get fast food and go do an activity like some, I don't know, ride bikes or something. Aaron:Invest in a way that's different than normal, if you can. Maybe you have to save for it a little bit, and that's okay. That actually makes it more special. Jennifer:Another way that you can invest in your marriage is find out if your church has a marriage group. Something that really, really affected our marriage in a positive way was the church. Aaron:Probably, I think we often attributed it to saving our marriage. Jennifer:Yeah. We were going to a church back in, I think this is our third year of marriage? We were in California, and they had a marriage group. You came to me and you were like, "Hey, we're going to go. It's on Wednesday night." Aaron:It was terrifying. Jennifer:You need to be there. You need to show up. That was a really dark time for me, and I was resistant toward going and didn't want to do it, but you encouraged us and said, "This is what we need to try." We showed up, and it was scary. There was a lot of people there. When we sat at the table and we started hearing the marriage stories coming up, it was actually really beautiful. Aaron:Yeah. Jennifer:Very eye-opening and it had a lot of purpose. You just got to do it. If your church has one, go for it. Aaron:If they don't have one ... Jennifer:Go find one. Aaron:... You should ask them to start one. Jennifer:Yeah. Aaron:You never know. There might be 20 other couples that have asked, and they'll finally be like, "Oh, we should start a marriage ministry." Jennifer:Number seven is, is this the last one? Aaron:This is the last one. Jennifer:See your spouse and yourself through Christ's eyes. I mentioned this in a previous episode, I think one or two back. It's really important that we are able to do this. The only way we can do it is if we know Christ. Aaron:Yeah. It also, again, this changes everything. Going back to what you talked about earlier also of what if there's a couple that aren't on the same page? Maybe one's not a believer. Maybe they're going through some really hard things and it's hard to connect. When we can look at our spouse through Christ and say, "Wow, okay, Lord," like we talked about, I think an episode or two ago about them having a brotherly love, a sisterly love, of seeing them in that way. Maybe it doesn't feel like they're my spouse right now because of this or that, because of this pain, because of that hurt.Man, I'm going to try and see them the way Christ does. I'm going to try and love them the way Christ loves them, and stop looking at them from an earthly fleshly point of view of all of the things that you did wrong. Jennifer:Critical. Aaron:All of the things that need to change. Jennifer:I feel like when you look through Christ's eyes, there's like this lens of grace that you could just see not who they are in their sin, but who they are because of the blood of Christ, and what he's done, and become a a new creation in him, and to hope for transformation in their life. Aaron:Yeah. Here's what it says in two Corinthians five 16 through 19. It says, "From now on, therefore we regard no one according to the flesh." This is essentially what we're talking about here. Let's stop regarding each other according to flesh, and let's start regarding each other according to the Spirit, according to what Christ did and who Christ is. Then it says, "Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold the new has come."All this is from God, who through Christ, reconciled us to himself, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Instead of seeing only the flesh, only the sin and the mistakes, and the shortcomings, and the frustrations, and the hurts, we see the one who Christ died for. We see the one Christ shed his blood for. We see the one Christ as reconciling to the Father through his life, death, and resurrection. Jennifer:In our, it's 16 years, right? Aaron:Yeah. Jennifer:16 years of marriage. Aaron:We just had that. Jennifer:There have been many times that we've had to intentionally see each other through Christ's eyes, because it's not something we tend to do on a daily basis, although we should, right? Aaron:Yeah. It's usually in those really hard times that we're like, ugh. Jennifer:Then everything just kind of falls flat on the floor and you're like, "Well, grace." That's what he is given to us. Aaron:In our testimony that you share in the Unbuild Wife book, that's essentially what happened. We were on the verge of just being done, calling it quits. I felt the Lord telling me, "Are you going to forgive your wife? Are you going to love her as I did?" He just reminded me of who he is.It made it impossible for me to, because I was either going to say, "No, I'm not going to look at her like that, and I'm over it," or I was going to say, "No, Lord, I love you and I'm going to try and see her that way." Jennifer:Yeah. Some of you listening right now, I just want to encourage you, you may be in a place where you need to pray and ask God to give you those eyes to see through Christ's lens. You might need to pray for that because ... Aaron:We have to. Jennifer:We have to. Aaron:I would say, because I can't do it without him. Jennifer:Yeah. We can't do it in our flesh. Yeah, all of us listening right now, we need to do that. Then I just wanted to ... we kind of summed up all the important stuff, right? Aaron:Yeah. Jennifer:I can move on. Aaron:You can. Jennifer:You guys know if you've been listening for a long time, I bring up memes from time to time, and I get stuck on social media in that way. I love those transformation videos where they show you the reel of pictures, where it's like, "This is who I was, but this is who I am." Aaron:Yeah, they're really powerful. Jennifer:A really huge weight change. That's what I'm thinking of right now is just like ... Aaron:Well, we've even seen ones of people that are being changed because of Christ, and they had how they were before, this party, and then all of a sudden, they're totally different. You're like, "Whoa." Jennifer:Yeah. The ones that I'm thinking of specifically are the weight ones and just how dramatic it is. They'll usually show bits and pieces of what it took to get there. Aaron:The progress. Jennifer:The progress, the working out. It just moves me, because I think you don't just get to be transformed. You have to be willing to put in the work. I just wanted to remind all of us that change can happen in us, like you mentioned earlier, through being passive and allowing influences in our life that change us, but we're not going to say that's for the positive. Aaron:Rarely. Jennifer:Rarely it is. Aaron:Accidentally change for the positive. Jennifer:Yeah. The powerful transformation that we are all eager to see in our lives and in our marriages comes from putting in the time, putting in the work, putting in the energy. It's being selfless, it's being sacrificial. It requires much, just like someone going through a weight loss journey and having to do muscle toning. You know that they did everything that they possibly could to get there. Aaron:Yeah. Well, the Lord puts it this way. We got to put to death our flesh. That's essentially what this process is putting behind us our flesh, and designing to walk in his spirit. The things that we brought up in this episode were hopefully just some practical things, but some things that we can actually do and try to do. We hope you enjoyed those. This is the last episode of this month. Jennifer:The last week of the month, where we're talking about this specific growth spurt. Is that what you're going to say? Aaron:Yes. Jennifer:This section of the podcast, we want to encourage you guys to take time to invest, like Aaron mentioned earlier ... Aaron:Write down. Jennifer:... In a personal way. Basically, this one covers everything. No. The goal here is to build trust with your spouse by doing what you say you will. Whatever commitments you've made, we want you to stick to them so that this is our encouragement. The way that we are encouraging that is by taking a post-it note, or a sheet of paper, or a three by five card, and just start with one.If you have more on there, that's great, but you still got a week left to do this. If you want to keep doing this past January, keep doing it. It's just one way that you can experience a maturity and transformation in your marriage. Aaron:Mine is, like I said ... Jennifer:Oh, yeah, we were going to talk about it. Aaron:... Mine's supposed to be in bed by nine. Jennifer:Look, the effort was there, and I just want to let it ... Aaron:It was on the refrigerator, and I even mentioned because we thought this was only going to take us 30 minutes to record. We're wrong. It's 10:19, and so I'm going to forgive myself today, and I'm going to try and be in bed by nine tomorrow. Jennifer:You've been doing great. I put on mine affirm the kids, and it's because as a mom and homeschooling, they're in the home all the time. They're with me all the time. I do a lot of correction and critique, and helping them in their life. Aaron:Yeah, mature. Jennifer:Figuring what mature and what's right and stuff. I just wanted to make sure that I was affirming them. It's like, I don't know. I don't know how things have been, so I just wanted to make sure that I was doing that. I put on mine, affirm the kids, and so I've been doing that. It's actually been really beautiful. I love seeing their eyes light up. It just feels good. Aaron:All right. I'm going to pray. Dear Lord, thank you for the change we have already experienced in marriage. We pray we would continue to see positive transformation on our relationship. We pray for more love, more peace, and more joy. Please help us to be intentional in the way we choose to interact in marriage every day. Holy Spirit, we ask you to help us to not be easily offended by each other. Show us areas of our marriage we can invest in and put the time and energy into making what we have even better.Please help us to see each other as you see us, and help us to hope for the change we desire to see. Thank you for our marriage, and thank you for the opportunities you've given us to make changes in our lives. We pray our marriages continue to mature and that it honors you. In Jesus' name, amen.    

02:51 - Jennifer's Superpower: Kindness & Empathy * Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-complex-ptsd-2797491) (C-PTSD) 07:37 - Equitable Design and Inclusive Design * Section 508 (https://www.section508.gov/) Compliance * Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/) (WCAG) * HmntyCentrd (https://hmntycntrd.com/) * Creative Reaction Lab (https://www.creativereactionlab.com/) 15:43 - Biases and Prejudices * Self-Awareness * Daniel Kahneman's System 1 & System 2 Thinking (https://www.marketingsociety.com/think-piece/system-1-and-system-2-thinking) * Jennifer Strickland: “You're Killing Your Users!” (https://vimeo.com/506548868) 22:57 - So...What do we do? How do we get people to care? * Caring About People Who Aren't You * Listening * Using Web Standards and Prioritizing Web Accessibility * Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Standards-Jeffrey-Zeldman/dp/0321616952) * Bulletproof Web Design by Dan Cederholm (https://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Web-Design-flexibility-protecting/dp/0321509021) * Progressive Enhancement * Casey's Cheat Sheet (https://moritzgiessmann.de/accessibility-cheatsheet/) * Jennifer Strickland: “Ohana for Digital Service Design” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfsZlkm59BE) * Self-Care 33:22 - How Ego Plays Into These Things * Actions Impact Others * For, With, and By * Indi Young (https://indiyoung.com/) 44:05 - Empathy and Accessibility * Testability/Writing Tests * Screen Readers * TalkBack (https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/6283677?hl=en) * Microsoft Narrator (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/complete-guide-to-narrator-e4397a0d-ef4f-b386-d8ae-c172f109bdb1) * NVDA (https://www.nvaccess.org/about-nvda/) * Jaws (https://www.freedomscientific.com/products/software/jaws/) * Heydon Pickering (https://twitter.com/heydonworks/status/969520320754438144) Reflections: Casey: Animals can have cognitive disabilities too. Damien: Equitable design initiatives and destroying the tenants of white supremacy. Jennifer: Rest is key. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDO: Hello, friends! Welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode number 243. My name is Mando Escamilla and I'm here with my wonderful friend, Damien Burke. DAMIEN: Thank you, Mando, and I am here with our wonderful friend, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're all here today with Jennifer Strickland. With more than 25 years of experience across the product lifecycle, Jennifer aims to ensure no one is excluded from products and services. She first heard of Ohana in Disney's Lilo & Stitch, “Ohana means family. Family means no one gets left behind, or forgotten.” People don't know what they don't know and are often unaware of the corners they cut that exclude people. Empathy, compassion, and humility are vital to communication about these issues. That's Jennifer focus in equitable design initiatives. Welcome, Jennifer! JENNIFER: Hi! DAMIEN: You're welcome. MANDO: Hi, Jennifer. So glad you're here. JENNIFER: I'm so intrigued. [laughs] And I'm like 243 and this is the first I'm hearing of it?! DAMIEN: Or you can go back and listen to them all. MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: That must be 5, almost 6 years? JENNIFER: Do you have transcripts of them all? CASEY: Yes. JENNIFER: Great! MANDO: Yeah. I think we do. I think they're all transcribed now. JENNIFER: I'm one of those people [chuckles] that prefers to read things than listen. DAMIEN: I can relate to that. CASEY: I really enjoy Coursera courses. They have this interface where you can listen, watch the video, and there's a transcript that moves and highlights sentence by sentence. I want that for everything. MANDO: Oh, yeah. That's fantastic. It's like closed captioning [laughs] for your audio as well. JENNIFER: You can also choose the speed, which I appreciate. I generally want to speed things up, which yes, now that I'm getting older, I have to realize life is worth slowing down for. But when you're in a life where survival is what you're focused on, because you have a bunch of things that are slowing your roll and survival is the first thing in your mind, you tend to take all the jobs, work all the jobs, do all of the things because it's how you get out of poverty, or whatever your thing is. So I've realized how much I've multitasked and worked and worked and worked and I'm realizing that there is a part of the equality is lost there, but we don't all have the privilege of slowing down. DAMIEN: I can relate to that, too. So I believe every one of our past 243 episodes, we asked our guests the same question. You should know this is coming. Jennifer, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? JENNIFER: I don't know for sure. People have told me that I'm the kindest person they've ever met, people have said I'm the most empathetic person I've ever met, and I'm willing to bet that they're the same thing. To the people, they just see them differently. I acquired being empathetic and kind because of my dysfunction in my invisible disabilities. I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder from childhood trauma and then repeated life trauma, and the way it manifests itself is trying to anticipate other people's needs, emotions, moods, and all of that and not make people mad. So that's a negative with a golden edge. Life is full of shit; how you respond to it shows who you are and rather than molesting kids, or hurting people, I chose to do what I could to make sure that no one else goes through that and also, to try to minimize it coming at me anymore, too. [chuckles] But there's positive ways of doing it. You don't have to be like the people who were crappy to you and the same goes like, you're in D.C.? Man, they're terrible drivers and it's like, [laughter] everybody's taking their bad day and putting it out on the people they encounter, whether it's in the store, or on the roads. I was like, “Don't do that.” Like, how did it feel when your boss treated you like you were garbage, why would you treat anyone else like garbage? Be the change, so to speak. But we're all where we are and like I said in my bio, “You don't know what you don't know.” I realized earlier this week that it actually comes from Donald Rumsfeld who said, “Unknown unknowns.” I'm like, “Oh my God. Oh my God.” MANDO: You can find good in lots of places, right? [laughs] JENNIFER: If you choose to. MANDO: Absolutely. Yeah. JENNIFER: Look at, what's come out of the horror last year. We talk about shit that we didn't use to talk about. Yeah, it's more exhausting when lots of people, but I think in the long run, it will help move us in the right direction. I hope. MANDO: Yeah. That's absolutely the hope, isn't it? JENNIFER: We don't know what we don't know at this time. My sister was volunteering at the zoo and she worked in the Ape House, which I was super jealous of. There's an orangutan there named Lucy who I love and Lucy loves bags, pouches, and lipstick. So I brought a backpack with a pouch and some old lipstick in it and I asked a volunteer if I could draw on the glass. They gave me permission so I made big motions as I opened the backpack and I opened the pouch and you see Lucy and her eyes are like, she's starting to side-eye me like something's going on. And then she runs over and hops up full-time with her toes on the window cell and she's like right up there. So I'm drawing on the glass with the lipstick and she's loving it, reaches her hand behind, poops into her hand, takes the poop and repeats this little actions on the glass. MANDO: [laughs] Which is amazing. It's hilarious so that's amazing. JENNIFER: It's fantastic. I just think she's the bomb. My sister would always send pictures and tell me about what Lucy got into and stuff. Lucy lived with people who would dress her in people clothing and so, she's the only one of the orangutans that didn't grow up only around orangutans so the other orangutans exclude her and treat her like she's a weirdo and she's also the one who likes to wear clothes. Like my sister gave her an FBI t-shirt so she wears the FBI t-shirt and things like that. She's special in my heart. Like I love the Lucy with all of it. DAMIEN: Well, that's a pretty good display of your super empathetic superpower there. [laughter] And it sounds like it might be really also related to the equitable design initiatives? JENNIFER: Yeah. So I'm really grateful. I currently work at a place that although one would think that it would be a big, scary place because of some of the work that we do. I've found more people who know what equity is and care about what equity is. The place I worked before, I talked about inclusive design because that's everywhere else I've worked, it's common that that's what you're doing these days. But they told me, “Don't say that word, it's activism,” and I was stunned. And then I'm like, “It's all in GSA documents here,” and they were like, “Oh,” and they were the ones that were really bad about like prioritizing accessibility and meeting section 508 compliance and just moving it off to put those issues in the backlog. The client's happy, no one's complained, they think we're doing great work. It's like, you're brushing it all under the rug and you're telling them what you've done and you're dealing with people who don't know what section 508 is either because who does? Very few people really know what it means to be section 508 compliant because it's this mystery container. What is in this? What is this? What is this thing? DAMIEN: So for our listeners who don't know, can you tell us a bit what section 508 is? JENNIFER: Sure. So section 508 means that anything paid for with federal funds must be section 508 compliant, which means it must meet WCAG 2.0 success criteria and WCAG is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. If you're ever looking for some really complicated, dense, hard to understand reading, I recommend opening up the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. I think the people that are on the working groups with me would probably agree and that's what we're all working towards trying to improve them. But I think that they make the job harder. So rather than just pointing at them and complaining like a lot of people do on Twitter, or deciding “I'm going to create a business and make money off of making this clear for people,” I decided instead to join and try to make it better. So the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are based on Perceivable, Operable, Understandable, and Robust, POUR. Pour like this, not poor like me. [laughs] So there's just a bunch of accessibility criteria that you have to meet to make your work section 508 compliant. It's so hard to read and so hard to understand that I feel for everybody like of course, you don't know what section 508 compliance is. It's really, really hard to read. But if somebody who is an accessibility specialist tells you and writes up an issue ticket, you don't argue with them. You don't say, “This isn't a thing,” you say, “Okay, how soon do I need to fix it?” and you listen to them, but that's not what I experienced previously. Where I am now, it's amazing. In the place I worked before here, like just the contracting, they welcomed everything I said to them regarding accessibility. So I just clearly worked at a contractor that was doing a lot of lip service and not talking the talk, not walking the talk, sorry. [laughs] Super frustrating. Because accessibility is only a piece of it. I am older probably than anybody on this call and I'm a woman working in tech and I identify as non-binary. The arguments I've had about they/them all my life have been stupid, but I'm just like, “Why do I have to be female?” It's just, why do I have to be one, or the other? Anyway, everyone has always argued with me so I'm so grateful for the young ones now for pushing all that. I'm Black, Native, Mexican, and white all smushed together and my grandma wouldn't let me in the house because apparently my father was too dark so therefore, I'm too dark. Hello? Look at this! [laughter] Currently, some people are big on the one drop rule and I always say to people, “If you hate me, or want to exclude me so much because somewhere in me you know there is this and how do you feel about so-and-so? I'm done with you and you are bad people and we've got to fight this stupidity.” I have also invisible disabilities. So I'm full of all these intersectional things of exclusion. I personally experience a lot of it and then I have the empathy so I'm always feeling fuzzy people who are excluded. So what am I supposed to do with the fact that I'm smart, relatively able-bodied, and have privilege of being lighter skin so I can be a really good Trojan horse? I have to be an advocate like, what else am I supposed to do with my life? Be a privileged piece of poop that just wants to get rich and famous, like a lot of people in tech? Nope. And I don't want to be virtue signaling and savior complex either and that's where equitable design has been a wonderful thing to learn more about. HmntyCntrd.com and Creative Reaction Lab out in Missouri, those are two places where people can do a lot of learning about equity and truly inclusion, and challenging the tenants of white supremacy in our working ways. I'm still trying to find better ways of saying the tenants of white supremacy because if you say that in the workplace, that sounds real bad, especially a few months back before when someone else was in office. When you say the tenants of white supremacy in the workplace, people are going to get a little rankled because that's not stuff we talk about in the workplace. DAMIEN: Well, it's not just the workplace. JENNIFER: Ah, yes. DAMIEN: They don't like that at sports bars either. Ask me how I know. MANDO: No, they sure don't. [laughter] JENNIFER: We should go to sports bars together. [laughs] Except I'm too scared to go to them right now unless they're outdoors. But when we talk to people about the actual individual tenants about power hoarding, perfectionism, worship of the written word, and things like that, people can really relate and then you watch their faces and they go, “Yeah, I do feel put my place by these things and prevented from succeeding, progressing, all of these things.” These are things that we've all been ingrained to believe are the way we evaluate what's good and what's bad. But we don't have to. We can talk about this stuff when we can reject those things and replace them with other things. But I'm going to be spending the rest of my life trying to dismantle my biases. I'm okay with my prejudices because even since I was a kid, I recognized that we were all prejudice and it's okay. It's our knee jerk first assumption, but you always have to keep an open mind, but that prejudice is there to protect you, but you always have to question it and go, “What is that prejudice? Is that bullshit? Is it right? Is it wrong?” And always looking at yourself, it's always doing that what you call self-awareness stuff, and always be expanding it, changing it, and moving it. But prejudice? Prejudice has a place to protect, speaking as someone who's had guns in her face, knives through her throat, and various other yucky things, I know that when I told myself, “Oh, you're being prejudiced, push yourself out into that vulnerable feeling,” things didn't go very well. So instead, recognize “Okay, what are you thinking in this moment about this situation? Okay, how can you proceed and keep an open mind while being self-protective?” DAMIEN: Yeah, it sounds like you're talking about Daniel Kahneman's System 1 and System 2 Thinking. We have these instinctive reactions to things and a lot of them are learned—I think they're all learned actually. But they're instinctive and they're not things we decide consciously. They're there to protect us because they're way faster, way more efficient than most of what we are as humans as thinking and enacting beings. But then we also have our rational mind where we can use to examine those things and so, it's important to utilize both. It's also important to know where your instinctive responses are harmful and how to modify them so that they're not harmful. And that is the word. JENNIFER: I've never heard of it. Thanks for putting that in there. Power accretion principles is that it? CASEY: Oh, that's something else. JENNIFER: Oh. CASEY: Type 1 and type 2 thinking. JENNIFER: But I know with a lot of my therapy work as a trauma survivor, I have to evaluate a lot of what I think and how I react to things to change them to respond things. But there are parts of having CPTSD that I am not going to be able to do that, too. Like they're things where for example, in that old workplace where there was just this constant invalidation and dismissal of the work, which was very triggering as a rape survivor/incest survivor, that I feel really bad and it made me feel really unsafe all the time. So I felt very emotional in the moment and so, I'd have to breathe through my nose, breathe out to my mouth, feel my tummy, made sure I can feel myself breathing deeply, and try to calmly explain the dire consequences of some of these decisions. People tend to think that the design and development decisions we make when we're building for the web, it's no big deal if you screw it up. It's not like an architect making a mistake in a building and the building falls down. But when you make a mistake, that means a medical locator application doesn't load for an entire minute on a slow 3G connection—when your audience is people who are financially challenged and therefore, unlikely to have always high-speed, or new devices—you are making a design decision that is literally killing people. When you make a design decision, or development decision not to QA your work on mobile, tablet, and desktop, and somebody else has to find out that your Contact Us options don't open on mobile so people in crisis can't reach your crisis line. People are dying. I'm not exaggerating. I have a talk I give called You're Killing Your Users and it got rejected from this conference and one of the reviewers wrote, “The title is sensationalism. No one dies from our decision,” and I was just like, “Oh my God, oh my God.” MANDO: [laughs] Like, that's the point. JENNIFER: What a privileged life you live. What a wonderfully privileged life! There's a difference between actions and thoughts and it's okay for me to think, “I really hope you fall a flight of stairs and wind up with a disability and leave the things that you're now trying to put kibosh on.” But that's not me saying, “I'm going to go push you down a flight of stairs,” or that I really do wish that on someone. It's emotional venting, like how could you possibly close yourself off to even listening to this stuff? That's the thing that like, how do we get to a point in tech where so many people in tech act like the bad stereotype of surgeons who have this God complex, that there are particular entities working in government tech right now that are told, “You're going to save government from itself. You've got the answers. You are the ones that are going to help government shift and make things better for the citizen, or the people that use it.” But the people that they hire don't know what they don't know and they keep doing really horrible things. Like, they don't follow the rules, they don't take the time to learn the rules and so, they put user personal identifying information, personal health information on the public server without realizing it that's a no-no and then it has to be wiped, but it can never really fully be wiped. And then they make decisions like, “Oh, well now we're only worried about the stuff that's public facing. We're not worried about the stuff that's internally facing.” Even though, the internally facing people are all some of the vulnerable people that we're serving. I'm neutralizing a lot of what I'm talking about. [chuckles] MANDO: Of course. [laughter] DAMIEN: Well, convinced me of the problems. It was an easy sell for me. Now, what do we do? JENNIFER: The first thing we do is we all give a fuck about other people. That's the big thing, right? Like, how do I convince you that you should care about people who aren't you? MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: I always think about the spectrum of caring. I don't have a good word for it, but there are active and passive supporters—and you can be vocal, or quiet—like loud, or quiet. I want more people to be going around the circle of it so if they're vocally opposed, just be quiet, quietly opposed, maybe be quietly in support, and if you're quietly in support, maybe speak up about it. I want to nudge people along around this, the four quadrants. A lot of people only focus on getting people who passively care to be more vocal about it. That's a big one. That's a big transition. But I also like to focus on the other two transitions; getting a lot of people to be quiet about a thing that as opposed. Anyway, everywhere along that process is useful. JENNIFER: I think it's important to hear the people who were opposed because otherwise, how are we ever going to help understand and how are we going to understand if maybe where we've got a big blind spot? Like, we have to talk about this stuff in a way that's thoughtful. I come from a place in tech where in the late 90s, I was like, “I want to move from doing print to onscreen and printing environmental to that because it looks like a lot of stuff has gone to this web thing.” I picked up Jeffrey Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards and Dan Cederholm's Bulletproof Web Design and all of them talk about using web standards and web standards means that you prioritize accessibility from the beginning. So the first thing you build is just HTML tagging your content and everyone can use it. It's not going to be fancy, but it's going to be completely usable. And then you layer things on through progressive enhancement to improve the experience for people with fancy phones, or whatever. I don't know why, but that's not how everybody's coming into doing digital work. They're coming in through React out of the box, thinking that React out of the box is – and it's like nope, you have to build in the framework because nobody put the framework in React. React is just a bunch of hinges and loops, but you have to put the quality wood in and the quality glass panes and the handles that everybody can use. I'm not sure if that analogy is even going to work. But one of the things I realized talking with colleagues today is I tend to jump to three steps in when I really need to go back, start at the beginning, and say, “Here are the terms. This is what section 508 is. This is what accessibility is. This is what A11Y is. This is WCAG, this is how it's pronounced, this is what it means, and this is the history of it.” I think understanding history of section 508 and what WCAG is also vital in the first version of WCAG section 508, it adopted part of what was WCAG 1.0, but it wasn't like a one to one for 1.0, it was just some of it and then it updated in 2017, or 2018, I forget. Without my cheat sheet, I can't remember this stuff. Like I got other things to keep in my brain. CASEY: I just pulled up my favorite cheat sheet and I put it in the chat sidebar here. JENNIFER: Oh, thank you. It's in my slides for Ohana for Digital Service Design that I gave at WX Summit and I think I also gave it recently in another thing. Oh, UXPA DC. But the thing is, the changes only recently happened where it went to WCAG 2.0 was 2018, I think it got updated. So all those people that were resisting me in 2018, 2019, 2020 likely never realized that there was a refresh that they need to pay attention to and I kept trying to like say, “No, you don't understand, section 508 means more now.” Technically, the access board that defines what section 508 is talking about moving it to 2.1, or 2.2 and those include these things. So we should get ahead of the ball, ahead of the curve, or whatever you want to call it and we should be doing 2.1 and 2.2 and even beyond thinking about compliance and that sort of stuff. The reason we want to do human beings is that 2.1 and 2.2 are for people who are cognitively fatigued and I don't think there's anyone who's been through the pandemic who is not cognitively fatigued. If you are, you are just a robot. I don't know. I don't know who could not be not cognitive fatigue. And then the other people that also helps are mobile users. So if you look at any site, look at their usage stats, everything moving up and up and up in mobile devices. There's some people who don't have computers that they only have phones. So it just seems silly not to be supporting those folks. But we need, I don't know. I need to think more about how to get there, how to be more effective in helping people care, how to be more effective in teaching people. One of the big pieces I've learned in the last six months is the first step is self-care—sleep, exercise, eat, or maybe those two need to be back and forth. I haven't decided yet because I'm still trying to get the sleep workout. Before I moved to D.C., I was a runner, hiker, I had a sit spot at the local pond where I would hang out with the fishes and the turtles and the frogs and the birds and here, I overlook the Pentagon and there's swarms of helicopters. I grow lots of green things to put between me and it, but it's hard. The running is stuck because I don't feel safe and things like that. I live in an antiseptic neighborhood intentionally because I knew every time I went into D.C. and I saw what I see, I lose hope because I can't not care. It kills me that I have to walk by people who clearly need – this is a messed up world. We talk about the developing world as the place where people are dying on the side of the road. Do you have blinders on like, it's happening here? I don't know what to do. I care too much. So what do we do? What do you think? DAMIEN: Well, I think you have a hint. You've worked at places that are really resistant to accessibility and accessibility to improvements, and you've worked at some that are very welcoming and eager to implement them. So what were the differences? What do you think was the source of that dichotomy? JENNIFER: I think at the place I worked after I left the hellhole; the product owner was an Asian woman and the other designer was from India. Whereas, before the other place was a white woman and a white man and another white man who was in charge. And then the place I work now, it's a lot of people who are very neurodiverse. I work at MITRE, which is an FFRDC, which is a Federally Funded Research and Development Center. It's full of lots of smart people who are very bookish. It's funny when I was a little kid, I was in the gifted and talented kids and so, they would put us into these class sessions where we were to brainstorm and I love brainstorming. I love imagining things. I remember thinking, “I want to work in a think tank and just all I do all the time is brainstorm and we'd figure out a way to use some of those things!” And I feel a little bit like I'm there now, which is cool and they treat one another really well at MITRE, which is nice. Not to say it's perfect there. Nowhere is perfect. But compared to a lot of places, it's better. I think it's the people are taking the time to listen, taking the time to ask questions. The people I work with don't have a lot of ego, generally. At least not the ones I'm working with. I hear that they do exist there, but I haven't run into many of them. Whereas, the other place, there was a lot of virtue signaling and a lot of savior complex. Actually, very little savior conflicts. They didn't really care about saving anyone, sorry. Snark! [laughs] DAMIEN: Can you tell us a little more about ego and how ego plays into these things? JENNIFER: How do you think ego plays into these things? DAMIEN: Well, I think it causes people to one up and turn questions around it on me, that's one way. Ego means a lot of things to a lot of different people, which is why I asked the question. I think it was introduced to English by Freud and I don't want to use a Freudian theory for anything ever. [laughter] And then when I talk to people about death of the ego and [inaudible] and all of these things, it seems really unpleasant. People like their self-identity, people like being themselves, and they don't want to stop being themselves. So I'm not sure how that's related to what you were saying. CASEY: The way I'm hearing you use ego here sounds like self-centered, thinking about your own perspective, not taking the time and effort and energy to think about other people's perspectives. And if you don't have a diverse set of experiences to lean on your own, you're missing out on a lot. JENNIFER: Yeah. I tend to think about, I guess, it's my dysfunction. Once again, it's like, how do my actions impact others? Why are other people thinking about how their actions impact others? When you're out in public and you've got to cut the cheese, are you going to do it when there are a lot of people around? Are you going to take a stinky deuce in a public bathroom that you know other people in there? If you think about the community around you, you would go find a private one if you cared at all. But most people don't care and they think, “I do what I got to do.” I just think we need to think a little bit more about the consequences of our actions and I tweeted yesterday, or this morning about how – oh, it was yesterday. I was watching TV and a new, one of those food delivery commercials came on. This one, they send you a stove, you get a little oven, and you cook all of their meals in this little throwaway dishes. So you have no dishes, nothing. How much are we going to just keep creating crap? When you think about all of this takeout and delivery, there's just so much trash we generate. We should be taxing the bleep out of companies that make these sorts of things like, Amazon should have the bleep taxed out of it because of all the cardboard and I'm just as guilty because I ordered the thing and the box of staples arrives in a box. It has a plastic bubble wrap all around it. Like it's just a box at $2.50 staples, but I couldn't be bothered to go – I don't know if they have them at Walgreens. Like for real, I don't know. We need to do better. We need to think about the consequences of these decisions and not just do it like, that's the thing that tech has been doing is let's make an MVP and see if it has wheels. Let's make a prototype, but do the thing. Okay, let's do the thing. Oh, it's got wheels. Oh, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing, it's growing. Who cares about the consequences of all of it? Who cares? Your kids, your grandkids someday maybe will when the world is gone. We talk about climate change. We talk about 120-degree temperatures in Seattle and Portland, the ocean on fire, the beaches are eroding, like the ice cap—most of the Arctic is having a 100 and some odd degree temperature day. Like we are screwing it up and our legislation isn't keeping pace with the advances in technology that are just drawing things. Where are the people who care in the cycle and how are they interrupting the VCs who just want to like be the next big tech? Everybody wants to be the next Zuckerberg, or Jack, or Bezos, or Gates, or whatever, and nobody has to deal with the consequences of their actions and their consequences of those design and development decisions. That's where I think it's ego, it's self-centeredness, it's wanting to be famous, it's wanting to be rich instead of really, truly wanting to make the world a better place. I know my definition of better. We've got four different visions of what better is going to be and that's hard work. Maybe it is easier to just focus on getting famous and getting rich than it is on doing the hard work of taking four different visions of what good is and trying to find the way forward. DAMIEN: Making the world a better place. The world will be a better place when I'm rich and famous. But that also means – and that's the truth. [laughter] But what else you said was being empathetic and having a diverse – well, marginalized people in charge where you can see that that's why the impact that things are having on other people. It's not just about me being rich and famous, but it's also about things being better for other people, too. JENNIFER: Yeah. I don't necessarily mean marginalized people have to be in charge. DAMIEN: Right. I took that jump based on your description of the places you worked for. I should have specified that. I wasn't clear enough. JENNIFER: I do have to say that in general, when I've worked for people who aren't the status quo, more often than not, they bring a compassionate, empathetic approach. Not always. There have been some that are just clearly driven and power hungry, and I can't fault them either because it's got to take a lot to come up from wherever and fight through the dog-eat-dog world. But in the project work, there's the for, with and by. The general ways that we redesign and build things for people, then the next piece is we design and build things with the people that we're serving, but the newer way of doing things is that we don't design and build the things, the people that we're serving design the things and tell us what they want to design, and then we figure out how to make sure that it's built the way they tell us to. That goes against the Steve Jobs approach where Steve Jobs said people don't know what they want sort of thing. Wasn't that was he said? DAMIEN: Yeah. Well, there was Henry Ford who said, “If you ask people what they wanted, they would've said faster horses.” JENNIFER: Right. D And Steve Jobs kind of did the same thing. JENNIFER: Right. And we, as designers, have to be able to work with that and pull that out and suss it out and make sure that we translate it into something useful and then iterate with to make sure that we get it. Like when I do research, listening sessions with folks, I have to use my experience doing this work to know what are the – like, Indi Young's inner thinking, reactions, and guiding principles. Those are the things that will help guide you on what people are really wanting and needing and what their purpose is. So you make sure that whatever your understanding is closer to what they're really saying, because they don't know what can be built. They don't know what goes on, but they do know what their purpose is and what they need. Maybe they don't even know what they need, but they do know what their purpose is, or you keep validating things. CASEY: I want to amplify, you said Indi Young. I read a lot of her work and she just says so many things that I wish someone would say, and she's been saying them for a while. I just didn't know about her. Indi Young. JENNIFER: It's I-N-D-I and Y-O-U-N-G. I am so grateful that I got to take her courses. I paid for them all myself, except for one class—I let that other place pay for one through my continuing ed, but I wanted to do it so badly that I paid for all myself. The same thing with all the Creative Reaction Lab and HmntyCntrd stuff; I paid for those out of my own money that probably could have gone to a vacation, [chuckles] or buying a car, or something. But contributing to our society in a responsible and productive way, figuring out how to get my language framework better. Like you said earlier, Damien, I'm really good at pointing out what the problems are. I worry about figuring out how we solve them, because I don't really have the ego to think that I know what the answer is, but I'm very interested in working with others to figure out how we solve them. I have some ideas, but how do you tell a React developer that you really have to learn HTML, you have to learn schematic HTML. That's like learning the alphabet. I don't understand. CASEY: Well, I have some ideas around that. Amber is my go-to framework and they have accessibility baked into the introduction tutorial series. They have like 13 condoned add-ons that do accessibility related things. At the conference, there's always a whole bunch of accessibility tracks. Amber is like happy path accessibility right front and center. React probably has things like that. We could have React's onboarding docs grow in that direction, that would be great, and have more React add-ons to do that that are condoned and supported by the community could have the same path. And it could probably even use a lot of the same core code even. The same principles apply. JENNIFER: If you want to work together and come up with some stuff to go to React conferences, or work with the React team, or whatever. 
CASEY: Sounds fun. DAMIEN: Well, one of the things you talked about the way you described it and made it sound like empathy was so much of the core of it. In order to care about accessibility, you have to empathize with people who need that functionality. You have to empathize with people who are on 3G flip phones. That's not a thing, is it? [laughs] But nonetheless, empathizing. JENNIFER: A flat screen phone, a smartphone looking thing and it's still – if anyone's on a slow 3G, it's still going to be a miserable experience. DAMIEN: Yeah, 3G with a 5-year-old Android OS. JENNIFER: But I don't think it's necessarily that people have to empathize. In an ideal world would, but maybe they could be motivated by other things like fast. Like, do you want to fast cumulative layout shift? Do you want like a great core vitals Google score? Do you want a great Google Lighthouse score? Do you want the clear Axe DevTools scan? Like when I get a 100% little person zooming in a wheelchair screen instead of issues found. Especially if I do it the first time and like, I hadn't been scanning all along and I just go to check it for the first time and it's clean, I'm like, “Yes!” [laughs] CASEY: Automation helps a lot. JENNIFER: Yeah. CASEY: When I worked at USCIS, I don't know what this meant, but they said we cannot automate these tests. I think we can and they didn't do it yet, but I've always been of baffled. I think half of it, you can automate tests around and we had none at the time. JENNIFER: Yeah, you catch 30 to 50% of the accessibility issues via the Axe rule set and JSX Alley and all that. You can catch 30 to 50. CASEY: Sounds great. JENNIFER: That's still better than catching none of them. Still not great, but it's still better than nothing. They're not here to tell us why they can't, but adding things into your end-to-end test shouldn't be that hard if you know how to write tests. I don't personally know how to write tests. I want to. I don't know. Like, I have to choose which thing am I going to work on? I'm working on an acquisition project, defining the requirements and the scope and the red tape of what a contract will be and it's such foreign territory for me. There's a lot of pieces there that I never ever thought I would be dealing with and my head hurts all the time. I feel stupid all the time, but that's okay. If you're not doing something you haven't done before, maybe you're not learning, it's growing. I'm growing. I'm definitely growing, but in different ways and I miss the code thing of I have a to-do list where I really want to get good at Docker, now I want to learn few, things like that and I want to get back to learning Python because Python, I think is super cool. CASEY: There's one thing I wanted to mention earlier that I just remembered. One thing that was eye-opening to me for accessibility concerns is when I heard that screen reader has existed, which was several years into my programming career. I didn't know they were a thing at all. I think it's more common now that people know about them today than 10, 15 years ago. But I still haven't seen someone use a screen reader and that would be really important for me as a developer. I'm not developing software lately either so I'm not really coding that. But if anyone hasn't, you should use a screen reader on your computer if you're developing software that might have to be used by one. JENNIFER: So everyone on a Mac has voiceover. Everyone on an iPhone has voiceover. It's really hard on the iPhone, I feel like I can't, oh, it's really hard. I've heard great things about Talkback on Android. And then on Windows, newer versions have Microsoft Narrator, which is a built-in screen reader. You can also download NVDA for free and install it. It depends on how much money you want to spend. There a bunch of different ways to get Jaws, do Jaws, too. Chrome has Chromebox so you can get another screen reader that way. CASEY: So many options. It's kind of overwhelming. If I had to recommend one for a Windows user and one for a Mac user, would you recommend the built-in ones just to start with, to play with something? JENNIFER: So everywhere I've tested, whether it was at the financial institution, or the insurance place, or the government place, we always had to test with Jaws, NVDA, and voiceover. I test with voiceover because it's what I have on my machine, because I'm usually working on a Mac. But the way I look at the screen reader is the number of people who are using screen readers is significantly fewer than the number of people with cognitive considerations. So I try to use good semantic markup, basic web standards so that things will work; things have always been pretty great in screen readers because of that. I try to keep my code from being too complicated, or my UI is from being complicated, which might do some visual designers seem somewhat boring to some of them. [chuckles] CASEY: Do you ever turn off CSS for the test? JENNIFER: Yes, and if it makes sense that way, then I know I'm doing it right and is it still usable without JavaScript. Better yet, Heydon Pickering's way of like, it's not usable unless you turn off the JavaScript, that was fabulous. I pissed off so many people. But to me, I try to focus on other things like how clear is, how clean is it? Can I tab through the whole UI? Can I operate it with just a keyboard? Your keyboard is your best assistive tech tester. You don't skip. If you can tap through anything without getting stuck, excellent. If you don't skip over nav items. CASEY: My biggest pet peeve is when websites don't work when you zoom in, because all of my devices I zoom in not because my vision is bad, but because for my posture. I want to be able to see my screen from a far distance and not lean in and craning my neck over laptop and my phone, both and a lot of websites break. JENNIFER: Yeah. CASEY: You zoom in the text at all, you can't read anything. JENNIFER: Yeah. At the one place I worked before, we required two steps of zoom in and two steps of zoom out, and it still had to be functional. I don't see that in most places; they don't bother to say things like that. CASEY: Yeah. JENNIFER: At the government, too – CASEY: I wonder how common it is if people do that. I do it so I think it's very common, but I don't know the right. [laughter] JENNIFER: But that's how the world is, right? I can tell you that once you hit this old age and your eyes start to turn against you and things are too small, or too light, you suddenly understand the importance of all of these things so much more. So for all of those designers doing your thin gray text on white backgrounds, or thin gray text on gray backgrounds, or your tiny little 12 and under pixels for your legaleas, karma is out to get you. [chuckles] We've all done it. Like there was a time I thought nobody cared about the legaleas. That's not true. Even your footer on your website should be big enough for people to read. Otherwise, they think I'm signing away my soul to zoom because I can't read it. If you can zoom it in, that's great. But some apps disable the zoom. DAMIEN: So we usually end on a series of reflections. How do you feel about moving to that? JENNIFER Sure! DAMIEN: We let our guests go last. Casey, do you have a reflection you want to share with us? CASEY: I'm thinking back to Mando's dog and I thought it was interesting, Jennifer, that you linked your experiences with the dog's experiences. Like, some of the symptoms you have might be similar if a dog has CPTSD, too and I think that's really insightful. I think a lot of animals have that kind of set up, but we don't treat them like we treat humans with those issues even if they're similar. DAMIEN: It was in your bio, equitable design initiatives, I really want it to dig into that because that fascinates me and I guess, if draws that bridge between things that I think are very important, or very important for me, both accessibility, that sort of work, especially in software design, because that's where I'm at. And then destroying the tenants of white supremacy and being able to connect those as things that work together and seeing how they work together. Yeah, that's what I'm going to be reflecting on. JENNIFER: Yeah. Whenever we're doing our work, looking for opportunities to surface and put it out for everyone to look at who has power, if this changes who has power, if this doesn't change who has power, what is motivating the players, are people motivated by making sure that no one's excluded, or are people motivated by making sure that their career moves forward, or they don't get in trouble rather than truly serving? I still am in the mindset of serving the people with a purpose that we're aiming to meet the needs of kind of thing. I still have that mindset. A lot of the prep work, we're still talking about the people we aim to serve and it's still about getting them into the cycle. That is a very big position of power that a designer has and acknowledging that that's power and that I wield that power in a way that I consider responsible, which is to make sure that we are including people who are historically underrepresented, especially in those discussions. I'm really proud of a remote design challenge where all of our research participants were either people of color, or people with disabilities. Man, the findings insights were so juicy. There was so much that we could do with what we got. It was really awesome. So by equitable design initiatives, it's really just thinking about acknowledging the power that we have and trying to make sure we do what we can to share it, transfer it, being really respectful of other perspectives. I've always thought of it as infinite curiosity about others and some people have accused me being nosy and they didn't realize it's not about getting up in their private business. It's just, I want to be gracious and respect others. What I will reflect on was how I really need to rest. I will continue to reflect on how I rest is key. I'm making a conscious decision for the next couple of months to not volunteer because I tend to do too much, as Casey may, or may not know. [chuckles] Yeah, I want to wake up in the morning and feel energized and ready to take full advantage of, which is not the right way to phrase it, but show up as my best self and well-prepared for the work. Especially since I now have found myself a new incredibly compassionate, smart place that genuinely aims to improve equity and social justice, and do things for the environment and how grateful I am. I totally thought this place was just about let's them all and it's so not. [laughs] So there's so many wonderful people. I highly recommend everybody come work with me if you care about things. DAMIEN: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer for being our guest today. It's been a pleasure. The author's affiliation with The MITRE Corporation is provided for identification purposes only, and is not intended to convey or imply MITRE's concurrence with, or support for, thepositions, opinions, or viewpoints expressed by the author. ©2021 The MITRE Corporation. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Approved for public release. Distribution unlimited 21-2206. Special Guest: Jennifer Strickland.

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...   www.marissafayecohen.com/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.   Marissa: Welcome back to the healing from emotional abuse philosophy. I'm so excited today to bring on Jennifer. She is the host of a podcast called Living With An Invisible Learning Challenge. She's also a survivor of sexual assault and abuse from Southern California. And she's here today because she wants to support other survivors of sexual abuse and be able to speak for people with learning challenges who are affected by sexual assault. Her mission is to support those who might be afraid to speak out for themselves and fear the consequences and retaliation that they may face. Thank you so much for being here. Jennifer. I'm excited to chat with you today.    Jennifer: I'm excited to do this, too.    Marissa: So first and foremost, would you feel comfortable telling us your story?    Jennifer: Yes, I do. So my story is that I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. Though every survivor story and journey to healing is different. I think we'd all agree it's difficult. It's probably the hardest thing we'll ever go through. But what I know for certain is my journey has made me who I am today. The abuse began when I was about six and ended when I was 12 and disclosed. My cousin was my abuser. He was two years older than me. When it began, I was too young to understand what was happening and when I eventually disclosed, I had no idea what it would do to the rest of my family, or how my life would change. Let me stop here to provide some context first, because my growing up was different. My cousin's family and mine were very close. We lived near each other and my parents and my aunt work together. I have a brother and my cousin had just one sister then. On top of that, we were home schooled at the place where my parents and Aunt worked. Our grandmother was our primary caretaker, and my parents and Aunt would take turns teaching us our classes throughout the work day. We were super close, and were always together. And even after my cousin's family moved to the east coast, my brother and I learned to visit them nine or 10 times in those first years. One more piece of information is relevant for context. I have a learning challenge. I'm not neuro-typical, I didn't know that during the abuse. But in my sophomore year at college, I was diagnosed with NLD, which stands for nonverbal learning disability, it is something I was born with. I'll say more about that later. So about the abuse. I'm not sure if this exactly counts as sexual abuse. But the abuse began with my cousin taking me into a closet and ping me when I was about six years old. Eventually, he began to sexually abused me. I think I was about eight years old the first time, I didn't know what it was at the time. And I don't know how he knew anything about sex. I definitely didn't. But I trusted him because he was my cousin. The age difference made me feel like he had power over me and I was powerless. Because we spent our days together, regular access was easy. And even after they moved away, because we made so many frequent trips to see them the abuse continued at their house. It continued, and I got older, I started to have strong feelings that this was really wrong. The very last time it happened was when my cousin came to California to visit us. He had been giving his parents a lot of grief and my mom wanted to help my aunt out. My mom thought that maybe if he came to visit us in California, it would help. Of course, she didn't know anything at the time about the abuse. I felt scared about the idea of him coming. During that visit, He abused me three more times. His abuse had started with picking on me, and over the years went from that to intercourse, and the last time he tried to put his penis in my bottom. It hurts so badly that I stopped by yelling stop. I decided that was going to be the last time. I asked him what would happen if I told anyone, he said that we would get into trouble. But I knew he was only one that would get into trouble. I don't know why I didn't disclose to my parents sooner, probably because it took a long time before I really understood what was happening. But looking back at it, now, knowing what I know about people with NLD, I think that also influenced it. I was too naive and trusting. People with NLD are prone to being so. I always believed what I was told, and never questioned anyone older than me. Even at 24, I still sometimes struggle thinking that anyone would ever lie to me or try to deceive me. I still tend to believe whatever someone tells me.    I remember vividly the day I disclosed to my mother. It was a Saturday morning, my cousin was still visiting us on that trip. My mom was getting ready for the day and I told her I needed to talk to her. I felt nervous about telling her. When I got up the courage to disclose, I said something like mom, he is putting his pee-pee in my pee-pee. Clearly I didn't even have the words. She was shocked. At first she couldn't believe that, because we hadn't had the talk about sex yet. So she grabbed one of those facts of life books with some very basic pictures, and asked me to describe and show her what I meant by what I said. I showed her and then she completely lost it. She broke down sobbing reassuring, that she believed me and repeatedly saying, “How could this have happened? I'm so sorry. I failed you.” She immediately called my dad and told him to come home. Right away. It was urgent. She met him in the driveway and told him what I had just disclosed.    There was a whole cascade of events that have followed my disclosure. My aunt flew out. My grandparents got involved. A detective was called to take a report, Child Protective Services came, I had a physical exam, which was frightening and painful. There were lots of tears all around, my cousin and Aunt flew back east and we were left figuring out what to do. We decided not to press charges at that time since my cousin no longer lived near us.  I began therapy which I continued for five years. I had triggers all through high school, but it lessened as I learned more coping skills in therapy. Therapy helped a lot. I learned several really valuable coping skills like lucid dreaming, using affirmations to make myself feel safe and journaling, to name a few. Meanwhile, things between our families were getting very bad. The other side was minimizing what happened, calling it merely show ant tell. They did not believe it had gone as far as it had. They felt my cousin and I were equally responsible. Things got very ugly with my aunt and uncle and grandfather pushing hard for us to forgive, and blaming, shaming and faulting us when we weren't ready. How could we be no acknowledgment of what happened from my cousin or his family had ever been given. I don't think it ever will. Our two families are estranged to this day. It was sometime after I had disclosed that we learned that there had been another incident of my cousin abusing another cousin. That cousin's parents decided to press charges. My family and I even flew out to the east coast to sit in the courtroom to support her. It was a difficult but powerful experience. And the judge found my cousin guilty and he was put on probation.    He was required to go into counseling and he was forbidden to have any contact with the other family. There were more parts to his sentencing, but I don't remember them all. When I learned about the other girl and their families decisions to press charges, I decided that I want to press charges too. I told my parents and I had their full support. We began that process. We had a hearing in front of the judge. We would have been gone to trial. But in the end the outcome would not have been any different since we were both minors. Originally, I thought I wanted to go to trial because not doing so felt like the abuse would be minimized. But then I knew what that was like for my other cousin, the other girl, he abused. And I decided we'd all had gone through enough. Two traumas really, the sexual abuse and the breakup of our families. I was able to present a victim impact statement, as did several other family members who were with me. I was the last one to read mine. And in doing so I was able to describe how the abuse has affected my life and my family.    Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you went through. How are you feeling now, after talking about it?    Jennifer: Well, I feel much better. Because each time I share it with somebody, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. And it gets easier to say it. So, it does get easier to share it each time.    Marissa: Thank you. I definitely agree with that. I think that the more you talk about it, the more it just kind of flows. The less impact it has on you. So you wrote that just to be prepared. Right? So you wrote your story, which was great. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you experienced in the actual abuse, but then even, especially the aftermath with your family. How do you feel now having gone through that process? Did it make you feel better at the time and now?    Jennifer: Yeah, going through the process with the hearing and the judge? It did make me feel better, because it made me feel like my cousin, I guess you could say, got punished for what he did. And the judge made me feel hurt because I remember during that time when I was 12, I felt like really nobody except for my immediate family believed me and believed my story. And I remember trying to understand why is all this happening. And just trying to wrap my head around all the family drama and interactions. And just trying to understand what was going on. And it was almost like it was kinda a tornado. And just like, what is happening around me?    Marissa: Totally understand. It's just very chaotic. Do you think having an invisible learning challenge, amplified the abuse or made the chaos of everything even worse?    Jennifer: So yes, I do think nonverbal learning disability, the acronym is NLD and NVLD played a part, which I learned about in my sophomore year of college. That's when I was diagnosed, I think it played a part because those people tend to be like I said, in my story, they tend to be more naive and trusting of people. And that's because they tend to have less life experience. And they tend to be more trusting even strangers. And because of them trying to catch up on the life experience that usually affects their trust issues. And even with the trauma that has made my trust issues more amplified, you can say,    Marissa: That makes a really good point, you made a really good point. I think another reason people with NLD are victimized more often because of the stigma and mental health. Right? So when when you have a mental health or a learning challenge, it's less likely that people like professionals will believe you. Or even, just anyone will believe you and you said that's kind of what you experienced. Right?    Jennifer: Right. Exactly. Less people will believe you when you just have a story. You have really no evidence to go with your it's just a he said she said thing. And really because also with my learning challenge, I don't like the word learning disability, So I use challenge instead, is not on the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is a manual that helps people get accommodations. Because it's not on there People think you're making something up, which is not true.    Marissa: And even if the diagnosis is in the DSM, right, people will still kind of think you're making it up because there's a stigma attached to mental health and learning challenges. And I think that's disgusting. That's something that I want to focus on. So thank you for bringing that up. So what coping skills aside from therapy did you use to help you heal from your abuse?    Jennifer: So the other coping skills I used is, obviously I got a dog. That was the whole reason we got Truffles. She's a Dijon, Shishu mix. We got her, actually 10, actually going on 11 years ago. And I never had a dog growing up so this was the first animal we had our pet in the house. And they kind of proposed idea to me, and they were like, do you want to get a pet? I'm like, What kind of question is that, of course, I want to get a pet.    Marissa: Do I have a pulse. Of course, I want a pet.    Jennifer: Yeah. And at first, we were wanting a cat because we travel a lot. But we wanted to add like a dog, we started looking at dogs. And then with Truffles, we got the opposite. Because she does act like a cat, she can jump really high, she loves to lay on our couch cushions like cats do. My dad has a pickup truck. And if it's parked by the curb, she can jump into the passenger seat without any help. So she has springs on her legs. And other coping skills would be I got into long distance running in high school and that was kind of a way for me to just get rid of stress. And sometimes when I was running, I would imagine my cousin's face and just kind of punch at his face to let off anger. That kind of worked. And I was kind of imagining like I was running towards my freedom of being free of all the emotions and just letting them go. And travel, my family did world traveling to at least one new country during the summertime and during non school breaks. That started when I was six years old, and when my brother was 11 years old. And it was kind of an escape for me from the sexual abuse that I experienced. Because when we were away from the family, I was away from my cousin. And the other coping skill I used to use was overeating. I did that in high school and college but I don't do that anymore. I used to use that to absorb emotions. And I got over that habit by realizing what I was doing and I decided to stop doing that. And try to express my emotions more by talking about them to my friends, my close friends, and my family.    Marissa: So I want to go back to one of the things that you said before, when you were talking about your story was that you use journaling, and that journaling really helped you. Journaling also really helped me so would you mind maybe talking about some of the things that you write about when you're journaling?    Jennifer: Sure. So yeah, one of the things I would talk about is, I would often like journal the dreams that I would have, which kind of helped get them out of my mind, because I found if they were still, in my mind, I would keep thinking about them. And so I kind of created a dream journal that I would use. I don't use it anymore, because I found when I was able to lucid dream, As soon as I mastered it, I did it on autopilot, basically. And I didn't need to journal about the dreams anymore.    Marissa: That's awesome. And you learned how to lucid dream from therapy?    Jennifer: Yes, I did. Very first therapist taught me that.    Marissa: That's awesome. That's a great technique. I wish I knew how to teach people how to do that.    Jennifer: Yeah, I wish I did too, because it's really helpful.    Marissa: Awesome. So tell me about what you're doing now. Tell me about your full time job.    Jennifer: So yeah, I work with my mom, who is a minister. She's been a minister for more than 40 years. She was ordained when she was 23. So near my age. And she is a unity minister in unity. It's Christian based, but it's not very religious. It's more spiritual for people who don't know what unity is. And the church is called the Unity Center. If people want to look it up. Basically what I do there is I'm an assistant for her, but I also am the manager of the website and the app that they have and her podcast that I helped with. And that was easier to do because I have my own podcast. The tech stuff I find so easy because I'm a millennial. So that helps. Oh, and I am our COVID janitor for our small in-person services that we do virtually on Sundays, Which is just our musical band, and my mom, and the staff, which is just me and my parents. So I just clean up after us when everybody leaves so that it's sanitized.    Marissa: So having grown up with a parent, who's a minister, do you use the scripture as any way to heal from abuse?    Jennifer: That's a good question. Yes, I definitely do use the faith that we have to help healing with abuse, I tend to meditate and actually, I'm wearing prayer beads. So that helps with healing. And I try to meditate a little bit also and when I exercise, I find that meditative because sometimes I can't sit very still. So sometimes I use more of a moving meditation as a coping skill.    Marissa: Awesome, guided meditation for healing and guided meditation for overcoming abuse are really really common tools. Is there any resource specifically you use for meditation? Are you just what do you do?    Jennifer: Usually, I just use deep breathing, or I can listen to one of the meditations that my mom has come up with, she has a lot of them on YouTube. She has her own YouTube channel for the church, so I can listen to the ones that she has on there.    Marissa: Awesome. Is there any particular part of the Scripture any passage that identifies with you or that, that you feel like has comforted you? You can say no, if you haven’t.    Jennifer: I would say something that I do identify with would be the saying that we have many paths, that many paths meaning many religions that exist in the world. And, you know, there's many gods that those religions have. And people follow all of them differently. I'm paraphrasing it. But that's basically what it means. And I like it because it's very welcoming. And, in Unity, we were very non judgmental of the past religion that you used, you can still practice it when you come to a Unity Church, and you can be who you are.    Marissa: That's beautiful. And I think that non judgment and that complete acceptance is really helpful for people, especially people who have endured abuse. I know that from speaking to people who are devout, devout Christians, that they see a lot of hesitation, with feeling comfortable leaving their abuser because of the way that they read and understand and comprehend the different scripture. So I think that being accepting and loving and knowing that people come from different backgrounds is really important. So thank you and your mom and Unity for doing that. Do you have a piece of advice for survivors of sexual assault with NLD?    Jennifer: Yes, I do. I think the ones who have NLD or other invisible learning challenges like autism or ADHD, or Asperger's, that they should be willing to speak up for themselves.  That if they've been abused sexually, or emotionally or physically in other ways that they should speak up for themselves and be able to say, “Hey, this happened to me, and it wasn't right,” and that they need to advocate for what they need. And they need to basically spread the word to others and be like, no, like the #MeToo movement. This is what I experienced, and I want to help others who are like me,    Marissa: I love that it's forming a community within a community and the sexual assault survivor community, we need to be better at advocating for people with NLD and invisible learning challenges, because they are a part of our community, people from all walks of life who have experienced sexual assault, and we need to be more inclusive and believe survivors. So thank you so much, Jennifer, for that piece of advice and for coming on the show and speaking out for survivors of abuse with invisible learning challenges and NLD because it's so commonplace in that community.    Jennifer: Thank you for having me. And thank you for letting me tell my story and talk about who I am.      If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. 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We want to invite you to take our 31-day parenting prayer challenge. These are made possible in part by our faithful prayer team patrons.  https://marriageaftergod.com/patronjoin today! → Parentingprayerchallenge.com Read The Transcript  [Jennifer] Welcome to the "Marriage After God" podcast. [Aaron] We're your hosts. I'm Aaron. [Jennifer] And I'm Jennifer. [Aaron] We've been married for 14 years. [Jennifer] And we have five young children. [Aaron] We started blogging over 10 years ago, sharing our marriage story in hopes of encouraging other husbands and wives to draw closer to God and closer to each other. [Jennifer] We have authored over 10 books together including our newest book "Marriage After God," the book that inspired us to start this podcast. [Aaron] Marriage after God is a message to remind all of us that God designed marriage with a purpose. [Jennifer] To reflect his love. [Aaron] To be a light in this world. [Jennifer] to work together as a team. [Aaron] Using what he has given us. [Jennifer] To build his kingdom. [Aaron] Our hope is to encourage you along your marriage journey. [Jennifer] As you boldly chase after God together. [Aaron] This is "Marriage After God." Hey everyone, welcome back to the "Marriage After God" podcast. We're in Jennifer Smith, your host- [Aaron] Yeah, we're excited to be back with another episode. [Jennifer] Do you know that we are more than halfway through the season? [Aaron] I know, crazy. It's going by really fast and it feels good. [Jennifer] Yeah. Hope everyone's enjoying it as much as we are. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] One thing I wanted to share with you guys just starting out the gate here, is took the kids for a walk, we have these really cool parks where we live in central Oregon, and just wide open nature, fresh air flowing river, awesome bridge to walk over, and we got outside. And sometimes it gets hard for me in the wintertime 'cause it's like, I don't know, it's cold. [Aaron] and you did it by yourself, I missed out on it today. [Jennifer] Yeah, usually I make you go along with me, huh? [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] More hands- I was impressed. [Aaron] And I missed it, 'cause I like going on those little adventures with you. [Jennifer] Well, a friend invited me, and it was just really good to get out despite it being cold, and the reason that I'm sharing this with you guys is because this friend of mine just is very enthusiastic and passionate about nature and being outside all the time, and so one of her ways of encouraging me is this challenge she gave me, this piece of paper that said the thousand hour challenge, and there's all these little bubbles that you get to mark off for every hour that you're outside with the kids, and I just thought how wonderful, and so it's been a fun little way of kind of keeping ourselves accountable to being outside every day, and the kids have loved being outside. I mean, they ask for it all the time anyways, so if anyone wants to take up that challenge, it's a thousand hour challenge. [Aaron] How many hours have you done outside? [Jennifer] I don't know, since I started it's been about a week. I think we got in I wanna say nine hours that I'm keeping track of. [Aaron] So I'm outside playing all day out back. So like that counts as like the, towards the hours. It doesn't have to be on an adventure just outside- [Jennifer] It could just be outside. [Aaron] That's cool. [Jennifer] Yeah, so anytime they're outside for an hour, I mark it off. [Aaron] I was actually kind of wondering what that thing on the refrigerator. [Jennifer] Yeah it doesn't really explain much. [Aaron] That's awesome. But I will try and go next time, 'cause it looked like you had a lot of fun. [Jennifer] It was a fun little adventure. Also the reason that I was bringing that up is because some of you may have seen me post on Instagram about it, just random pictures of us being out on our nature walk today. But I'm back on Instagram and that's new. [Aaron] So you're saying everyone should message and say hi to you. [Jennifer] Sure, say hi, pop in and say hi. I was off for pretty much all of January, and I had never taken a break like that from a social media. Like, so hands off, like, I mean, I deleted it from my phone and everything, and it felt really good. And then one day I just decided I missed it. So I came back and at first it felt weird to post, like I didn't know really how to, it felt new again. but I'm back. Do you wanna come see me? Come say hi. [Aaron] Awesome, I just want to invite everyone, if you haven't yet to leave a review today, that'd be awesome. Five star rating, actually doesn't have to be five-star you can get, you can start whatever you want. Five star would be appreciated, but yeah leaving a review or a star rating today would be awesome. If you have done that, we're just so appreciative and it helps the algorithms. We always mention it. So if you take a moment today, we'd really appreciate it. [Jennifer] Another thing that we wanted to offer you is very similar to what you may have heard in the last few episodes kicking off the season, but it's a little bit different. So we've been sharing about the marriage prayer challenge, today we wanna remind you and offer you and invite you to the parenting prayer challenge. And it's essentially the same concept. You can go to parentingprayerchallenge.com and sign up, and you'll get 31 days of prayer prompts to pray over your children. [Aaron] And you can actually choose whether to pray for your son or your daughter or both, if you have both, and it's completely free, and we'd love for you to join that and take that challenge. And you could take it even if you're taking the marriage prayer challenge already. So you can be praying for your spouse and you can be praying for your kids. You should do that today. [Jennifer] Again, that's parentingprayerchallenge.com. [Aaron] So Jennifer, why are we talking about... Just real quick, I know this isn't in the notes, but why are we talking about comforting each other during hard times. When we came up with this list of ideas for episodes? [Jennifer] Yeah, I think we already mentioned that the motivation behind the way we created our list this season was just, how we do every season is what have we been learning about? What have we been doing? What have we been walking through? What's God been teaching us? So partly from that just last year, there were times that you hard times that you comforted me and I comforted you. And it was a kind of relearning opportunity for us in our marriage of what it looks like to go through a hard time and be there for one another. And the other reason is just because I think that if you had, you know, a handful of categories that every marriage deals with, this is probably one, of the top ones where every marriage faces challenges and hardship and trials and hard times, and we get the opportunity as husband and wife to be there for one another. And so I think it's good to what we always say check our hearts or evaluate, you know, where we're at and how we're doing. And so we thought talking about how to comfort each other during hard times, would be inappropriate marriage topic for a marriage podcast. [Aaron] I think so. And it's good for everything, not just your marriage, but I'm just thinking about situations in my life where I needed to be comforted by friends, by my parents. [Jennifer] That's true, we are gonna go into more of just comforting others too. [Aaron] But it's good, especially with how the world's going, and things have just been going on. I think there's plenty of opportunities to be comforted into comfort. And personally, this has been something that's very difficult for me to do to others. [Jennifer] Comforting others or having compassion or empathy toward them? [Aaron] All the above. [Jennifer] Okay, I'm like, just clarify. [Aaron] I don't know why. I couldn't tell you why, but emotional sensitivity has been difficult pretty much my whole life. I don't know why. I feel like the last handful of years I've gotten better at it, I feel like I've been like changing that in me. You could probably attest to this, like going from just always, you know, logical and cold to getting a little bit softer and- [Jennifer] Well, let me encourage you, because I wouldn't say the word cold. I don't think you're a cold guy, I don't think you're a mean guy, I think that you're a very strong guy, and so sometimes some of the weaker ways that we humans walk through get overlooked because- [Aaron] Being very gentle to me, thank you. [Jennifer] I'm being honest. I do think that you... There are plenty of times you've been compassionate or have comforted me or others, I just wouldn't say that you're like that kind of tenderhearted always trying to be there. [Aaron] Yes, it's something that I need to work on for 100% sure. [Jennifer] Okay, let's just stick to the notes here. [Aaron] Yeah, okay. It's something that definitely doesn't come natural to me. I don't know why it is, but it just never really has. Comforting someone in hard times, someone who's going through painful situations, suffering- Like what to do in hard times? [Aaron] That, yeah, not knowing how to be that person for someone. [Jennifer] When you have someone in your life that is going through a hard time, do you automatically get challenged with the thought, like, I don't know what to do for them, or is it more just like this is so uncomfortable and I wanna like... I hope they get better and I'm gonna pray for them move on. Or I don't know. [Aaron] Yeah, I'd say there's a couple of things. Especially if someone who's going through something's not in close proximity to me. And like I said, I've been getting better at this, God's definitely shown stuff to me and highlighted this in me. But if they're not like indirect proximity to me, it's hard for me to like put my mind on them and my heart on them. But when I am in proximity to someone, I'm thinking of like deaths in the family, or, you know, friends going through hard things. [Jennifer] Where I see it. [Aaron] Where I see it and I'm present. And yeah, I think I want to, like, there's this, like I know I should do something, I know I should say something, I know should be a certain way, but I, yeah, I think it's both of those things, but I also feel uncomfortable. So it's something I'm wanting to grow in, and get better, which is why I'm glad we're talking about it, because it's been something that God has been teaching us, teaching me. [Jennifer] Me too. [Aaron] He's used you a lot to teach me, which we'll talk about. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, marriage is awesome in that those moments where you haven't walked with compassion or comfort, I've been able to share with you how I feel in those moments. You know, if I've felt overlooked, or I felt like maybe you didn't respond to me the way I was hoping you would have in the way that I felt, over the years, you have been responsive to those moments that I've shared that with you. So you have grown in these areas. You might see yourself as not being super great at comforting others, but you have grown a lot since I've known you in this. [Aaron] Yeah, and I wanna grow more, I wanna be better for you at that. But I just know that even with you, there's times that I'm not understanding, or I see a situation differently, or I might be it come off as cold or un compassionate, because I'm just like, Hey, like we can get through this. Maybe I there's been times that I'm- [Jennifer] Quick to fix it. [Aaron] Yeah, like I, I just jumped to- [Jennifer] The solution or like- [Aaron] The solution. And I also think- Moving forward. Just now that I'm thinking about it, I think I get, because I'm uncomfortable with someone going through something, I want them to stop going through it. Like, come on- I see what you're saying. Like stamp out of it. Like let's move past it. Maybe because I don't usually get affected too much. [Jennifer] You're the type that if you're near Aaron and you're going through a hard time, he wants to grab you by the arm and go have a good time, like, come on, let's just go, let's move forward. Like that? [Aaron] Yeah, Sort of. It's like I want you to see it from my point of view. I don't know. And then that's not always right, right? Wrong, that's not right. [Jennifer] And this is what God's teaching you. [Aaron] Yeah, this is what God's teaching me. [Jennifer] That's good. Also, when were talking and explaining that just now, I was just thinking the silence. You know that people say the awkward silence. [Aaron] It's too awkward for me. [Jennifer] Well, yeah. But sometimes when people are sharing that they're going through a hard time, or are suffering or need that person, that friend to comfort them. Yeah, you're quick to say something, you're quick to move or quick to be actionable, because- [Aaron] I wanna give some sort of response. [Jennifer] You want to give a response to them. And so would you say that God is teaching you how to just be still in that moment, and kind of be there with that person? [Aaron] Yeah, well, it's something that we'll talk about in this episode, but it's, there's, I think He's showing me, He's been teaching me how to walk with individuals, because every situation isn't the exact same. I could see things like, this is always how I'm supposed to be, or always what I should say. But every situation is different, and I need to love someone enough to understand them and how they will receive love and comfort. So more of a putting myself in their shoes the specific person, I don't know, I feel like I'm- [Aaron] I know, I feel like we've kind of gone on this tangent of like, let's talk about and focus on Aaron, but we didn't kind of mean for it to go that way, but we'll run with it. [Jennifer] Yeah, I just wanted to bring up that this is a hard thing for me. [Jennifer] You're being honest, that's good. I think this is interesting because I get what you're saying, and I've seen what you're saying play out before with me and with others, just having known you for so long. But there's this other side of you that really is gentle and compassionate and comforting, I've seen it. And I've seen you treat people, everybody has as equal, like you don't put people on pedestals where there's like this person over here that's higher, and this person over here that's lower. Like you've always maintained this equal standing of like value with people, which I think is incredible. And you've also always kind of, I don't know how to say at the same time, you've been there for the underdog. At different times in our life, there has been people that are like hard to get along with, or people are struggling with them and you seem to be able to relate to them and be friendly and be there for them. Does that make sense? [Aaron] It goes back to that, seeing everyone the same. I, well, I do tend to not like knowing that there's someone that's being cast out or downcast or put aside. And so I feel like I gravitate towards those people, but at the same time, I don't treat them any different than I would treat someone else. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] I just, yeah, it is interesting. But that has come into play Now that I think about it, with some of the problems I've had, because like I was saying, treating everyone the same, isn't always... It's good to it's good to view everyone the same, but it doesn't mean I'd respond the same to everyone, or interact the same with everyone, if that makes sense. Especially when it comes to things like comforting, things like suffering, things like pain, something that I may not understand, something I've never gone through. So I feel like it's been opened my eyes to like how to, as Paul put it, be all things to all men so that I might win some. Like that idea of seeing where someone's at and being like, okay, good Lord. What do you, how do you want me to respond to this specific situation with this person? [Jennifer] Right. Well, I feel like we went through quite a bit of just how you engage and interact with people just now, And I don't want it for now. I just don't want it to sound super negative. So just as a reminder to you, Aaron, I have seen you in times where people are suffering an uncomfortable or needing comfort, you've been there. And even in the awkwardness, even in the not knowing what to do or how to respond in that moment, I do try. You do try. And you're really, you're a good friend, and you're a good husband. And I just wanted to remind you that. So without going more into me personally, this topic was meant for everyone. [Jennifer] And I think is the launching pad. [Aaron] Yeah, well It made sense, 'cause I was writing this and I had to start with, hey this is something that is hard for me, but I'm sure it's hard for everyone at different times. But it's also something that we desire ourselves that we ourselves want to be comforted, and as believers, we want to be good at being able to comfort because we can comfort the lost, and that could be an opportunity to bring them to Christ. We can comfort our family and our spouse and our children, and so it's a good tool in our tool belt, as we talk about in our book to all to have. And I think it's something that we should, like you said in the beginning of this, examine our hearts and say okay Lord, how can I... Teach me how to be compassionate and have a heart for the hurting? [ Jennifer] Yeah, and no one's exempt from or immune from having hard times, or facing trials, challenges, suffering. Right, it might look different for each of us, but we all experience it on some level, every marriage does, every individual within that marriage does, people we know friends, family, people who, neighbors. Yeah, everybody faces it in different ways. And I think if we keep our hearts tender, I think tender is such a good word when it comes to being able to comfort one another, I think we'll we'll know what the right thing to do is when those opportunities arise. [Aaron] Isn't it James that says that pretty much promises, we will have trials and tribulations in our life. Like it's a given not just for the believer, but for the world. You can't turn on the TV or go outside or drive down the street without seeing it or even experiencing it. Like there's just going to be trials and challenges and things that are hard. So having an eyes for this and I think you said tenderness is a good word, but like like a softness, like a heart that's ready. [Jennifer] Yeah, well that's good. Yeah. I like that. Before we dive into some of the meat of the message today, I thought it would be fun to answer this question, what is the most comforting thing I have ever done for you? [Aaron] There's been times when I've been really sick and you pamper me. [Jennifer] Pamper. [Aaron] I mean like you- [Jennifer] I call it babying, I baby you. [Aaron] Yeah, there was a time when I had a really bad earache, and I thought my brain was gonna explode. [Jennifer] I remember that, I've never seen you in so much pain, actually. [Aaron] I hadn't ever been in so much pain. But you like held me while I was like like crying on the bed, 'cause it was hurting so bad. [Jennifer] I was a little terrified, I didn't know what to do. [Aaron] Neither did I, it was so bad. But I remember you I prayed for you. [Aaron] Yeah I think of those times when I'm, there is nothing to do, but you just held me or, you know, prayed over me, and so that was the first thing I thought of. [Jennifer] And then I think I said, I think you should go to the doctors or had you already been? [Aaron] I did, I went to the doctors and I got a, some sort of antibiotic but it was like, it got worse after I got back. [Aaron] I remember that, that was intense. [Aaron] So what's the most comforting thing that I've ever done for you? [Jennifer] I'd say like you mentioned a very specific time but I think in general, just when you hold me close, when you pull me into you and hug me and yeah, just hold me. [Aaron] Remind you that I'm still here. [Jennifer] Yeah, that you're very close. I think the second thing is just when I hear you pray over me or for us, that's always encouraging. [Aaron] That's good. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Some tips for all those listening. [Jennifer] The only thing you need, physical touch and prayer. [Jennifer] I guess we're done. [Aaron] Yeah, let's move on to the... Yeah, now there's some things in scripture we can look at that can give us some I don't know if they're guidelines, but it's encouragement for us in our walk and comforting, learning to comfort our spouse, others. And I just wanted to go through some of those and hopefully it encourages you listening, it encouraged me when I was writing it. So the first thing is for the believer, we're told to comfort each other. [Jennifer] So do it. [Aaron] Right, so this kind of sounds oversimplified but sometimes I feel like we don't think have that responsibility. Or someone else will do that. That's not my job. And I know we've in various seasons, struggled with this. Like someone's going through something and we think to ourselves, no we shouldn't like maybe someone else will, maybe they don't want anyone over there right now. And just kind of questioning whether it's our role to go comfort someone. [Jennifer] Which the hard thing about that is the moment you justify it, or excuse yourself out of the situation, it only takes a fleeting moment to then forget about it. Like, forget that need, forget that that person needs it right then and there. And then when, by the time it comes back around you remember it, the moment has passed, the opportunity has passed, someone else has stepped in, which is good, and we're so grateful for those people that take over when we don't or choose not to, or forgetful but let's not do that. [Aaron] So yeah, the first thing is that we're told- [Jennifer] You said maybe it's over simplified and I just the next word I heard, but under done. So over simplified, under done. [Aaron] It's true. Yeah, because we do, we disqualify ourselves from that ministry, but we're we're told to comfort each other. And I would imagine, not imagine, I would say that the first person that you should be like prone to comfort is your spouse. Right, they're a part of you, you're one with each other. And so if you're not comforting each other you're not comforting yourself. Like if you look at that- [Jennifer] I would definitely say this, I'm trying not to use double negatives. If you're not comforting your spouse, you better not be comforting anybody else because the moment you show others comfort, and that ability and your spouse is sitting over here going what in the world? [Aaron] That's true. [Jennifer] That's so hurtful. And the other part of that is if you guys... We're gonna talk about this in a minute, but you guys should be comforting people as a team, like your marriage, your one, so you be comforting each other first and then step into that space of like being able to comfort others. Sorry, I had to get out of the way. [Aaron] That's good. So second Corinthians 13:11 is where we get this says: "Finally, brothers rejoice, aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you." So if we look at that os piece the God of love and peace will be with you. Do we want that? [Jennifer] Of course. [Aaron] Okay, then let's rejoice, let's aim for restoration, let's comfort one another, agree with one another and live in peace. This is how the brothers in the church, this is a Christians walk, [Jennifer] But this is such a great marriage verse. Like if you just replaced brothers for spouses. [Aaron] Finally spouse's rejoice, aim for restoration. And well, especially if you and your spouse are both believers like this totally applies. And even if you have a spouse that's not a believer, you can still aim for this on your side of the marriage. But we are to comfort one another. That's a, that's a command to us on how we walk. It's part of our job description, not only as husbands and wives, but as Christians, it's our responsibility to do this. So if you've been looking for permission to comfort someone, comfort your spouse, that you are qualified, that you are called to it, here it is. This is a part of your job. [Jennifer] Okay, so, because we're talking, it's kind of a mixed message or not a mixed, but- [Aaron] I love this note, by the way. [Jennifer] How do I say it's all encompassing message today on how to comfort others. So it is inclusive of your spouse and others, right? We need to- [Aaron] Like there is a caveat. [Jennifer] Yeah, we need to clarify that boundaries matter, And I'm saying this from experience being married to your Aaron for 14 years, that we've communicated and agreed upon boundaries that have, I think protected our marriage and protected our unity and our peace within our marriage. So do you wanna speak to that? [Aaron] And what you're talking about is specifically like so taking all of this advice for your spouse is great, and learning as a couple as an individual individual to comfort others is great, but we shouldn't just take that blanket across the board because it would be very dangerous if I got in the habit of personally and individually comforting other women or other people's wives, right? I mean, that was just, that would be wrong. Now, if someone needs to be comforted, what I can do is bring my wife into it with me, or encourage my wife to do it. [Jennifer] Hey, I noticed so-and-so is hurting over here. Have you reached out to them? Have you had a conversation? You know, things like that. And the reason that we bring this up, you guys is because our marriage matters and our relationship is sacred. Aaron and I's right. You would agree that our marriage is 100% special, special. Yeah. I don't know how else to explain that. And I think when you move into comforting others, there is a level of intimacy involved. And I'm not saying the same intimacy as a husband and wife, but emotional intimacy is something that's truly valued among human beings and how we experience life. And so if you're gonna move into that space where you're comforting someone, regardless of what it is like whether it's meeting a need of theirs, or sitting there and listening to some hardship that they're going through, that's something that we should be willing to look at and say, are we making sure that we are within our boundary, right? Just our boundaries is I don't. [Aaron] Our boundary is that I don't. I won't sit ever alone and comfort a hurting woman. I won't do that. And if I did, my wife would know about it immediately. It wouldn't be a secret thing, but that would be, that has never happened. So the, what would happen is I would call you I'd be like, Hey, I think we need to come up. And it sounded really bad. Like we should go pray for them, or you should go see if she needs to talk. And so we were, and the same with my wife, she wouldn't go and sit and have a really deep intimate conversation with someone listening to all of their hurts and the things they're going through alone, she would invite me, or she would tell me like, hey you should really chat with so-and-so, they really need some comfort, they need some, you know, someone to listen. [Jennifer] And we've actually found a really great blessing and benefit in this, and Aaron, you've had some really great conversations with guys who have needed that comfort from another brother and I've had the opportunity to comfort and be comforted by other Christian women. And it's been a good thing. And then together as a couple, we've been able to step into that and, you know minister to other couples and other people. So I just think that boundaries are important. And, and we kind of wanted to talk about it upfront and get it out of the way, because it'll apply to everything else that we're talking about. [Aaron] So we always want to just encourage boundaries and order and that it also encourages you to encourage your spouse to be a minister, to care for others. So working together helps with that, and it's not worth it. So if someone's going through something, just know that there's someone else that can comfort them, if it's not you. So find another sister, brother, "Hey so-and-so could totally use some comforting right now." And so that we protect our marriages. So I thought that was a really good note. Thank you for that. So I just want to give a quick definition of comfort. So comfort is, first of all, it's a verb. [Jennifer] Action. [Aaron] It's something you do, and you do it actively. And it's defined as a state of physical ease and freedom from pain or constraint. So physically comforting someone helping, you know, if they have a broken arm holding their arm up so that they're not in constant pain as a friend of mine, one time put his back out. And I had to take into the to the hospital and I had to like, hold up his whole torso so that he would put any weight on his lower spine. And it was wow. But that, that's what this is talking about is physical comfort. I'm comforting that physical pain with my body. [Jennifer] I'm thinking about labors. I've had the opportunity to be a part of, where you're just trying to help ease that woman going through, that you just helping in any way. Yeah. [Aaron] The other definition is the easing or alleviation of a person's feelings of grief or distress. So that's one, that's common of they're going through something painful emotionally, and you're there for them. And then another one is ease the grief or distress. [Jennifer] Console. To console someone. So that's essentially what comfort is. There's a physical comfort, which again, should be in a safe way with boundaries, but with your spouse like that, like you said, me being near you, holding you, coming to you, touching you you know, embracing you. And so that's what we're talking about when we talk about comfort. [Jennifer] As you're going through these definitions, the word that stood out to me is the word alleviate. And it reminds me of, you know, lifting up kind of like that illustration that you get so good. And I looked up another, you know, the source of synonyms in it, it means to take the edge off. So it's not just solving a problem or making something not painful ever again, that might be where that uncomfortable feeling comes from for you, that you had mentioned earlier. It's like this expectation to help in a way that that we just can't, you know sometimes some hard things won't ever be fixed, but in them we can help take the edge off by gladdening someone's heart reminding them of the good making them laugh or experience joy amidst what they're going through. So I just thought that word alleviate was I dunno, really cool. In normal times there there's plenty of reasons and seasons we go through that bring us to a point where we need to be comforted. I think everybody listening right now it's just like maybe sitting in that space right now saying I need that, you know hopefully our words bring you comfort today. [Aaron] I think a lot of believers right now look at the stuff going on in the world. Yeah. And we desire to be comforted. Like, is it gonna like, what? Like what's going on Lord? And so as believers, also, something to encourage you with is you can comfort because you're comforted. I know it kind of sounds funny but it's it's why we can comfort. That my next point is we are told to comfort but you can comfort because you yourself have been comforted. In 2nd Corinthians 1:3-5 Paul says this: "Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of mercies and God of all comfort." Okay, right there just starts a God of all comfort, "Who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God, for as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ, we share abundantly in comfort too." This is true for every believer. Because no matter what, you're going through, you have the comfort of God on your life because you know that he has saved you by His son Jesus. [Jennifer] Okay, so just real quick, when we were sharing about the definition just a bit ago, a state of physical ease and freedom from pain or constraint. Oh my goodness. This makes me appreciate and just attend a way to salvation that we have in Christ. [Aaron] Right, 'cause no matter what the world or our happens to our bodies, man, does our bodies or just happens through age or disease, that we are comforted with the knowledge and the truth that this isn't it, that we have a new body coming, that we have a new home, that we have a savior, and we're going to have eternity worshiping our father. [Jennifer] So every single one of us have felt broken, shame, unrighteousness, that sin that he set us free from he's given us freedom from that's the comfort that we're talking about. [Aaron] And on top of that, He sent us his us His Holy Spirit who also comforts us. So when we're in the midst of just life, he reminds us of the truth about us. This is something that we dealt with a lot this year, just us thinking about who we are in Christ. And that we're no longer that old man. And that God was, he reminds us like, no, that's not who you are. Hey yes, it feels this way now, but it's not true. Like the Holy spirit has comfort us many times by bringing to remembrance the truth about us. When the lies are making us sad, and feel broken the spirit isolator, he comforts us. And so I just want to encourage you listening that you have that same comfort. The God of all comfort comforts you in all your affliction. And this is why, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted. So we're not comforting out of our perfect situation, we're not comforting out of the fact that we don't have any afflictions. [Jennifer] We're not even comforting out of our own means. So when we're trying to, you know, help comfort someone by providing them something or, you know fulfilling a need for them. It's like, it's not even out of that physical response. It's literally because we've all been comforted by God himself. [Aaron] Right, so the comfort that we give, the comfort that we offer, the comfort that we attempt to walk in is his comfort, right? That's an incredible encouragement, because we can go sit with someone and know that any comfort we could offer, has come from God already in our life and in their life. I also think this is a good place to just say if we struggle with that awkwardness of or being uncomfortable with seeing someone suffering or going through a trial or something hard and the Lord's given us the opportunity to step into that to comfort them. And we don't know what to do. Like Aaron, you said that you've struggled with that. We can pray and we can ask Him and we can say, God, the God of all comfort, can you show me how you want me to comfort for this person right now? I know how you've comforted me, I know you, how you have set me free, you know, how can I do that for this person? [Aaron] That's a good point when there's times that I'm struggling when you're going through something, and I'm like, I have no idea what to do. I'm like, Lord, what do I do? And he brings to remembrance your words. I wish you would just like, hold me, like just come close to me. Which is you don't say that in the moment but you've said it enough. And I'm like, okay. And then I'm thinking to myself, this is hard. Why is this so hard to go? Just sit down right now. Right? [Jennifer] Our flesh will get in the way sometimes. [Aaron] Yeah, a lot. [Aaron] Especially in marriage, but- [Jennifer] All right, here's your third encouragement, Christian, okay, rise up and go to them to be present. What I was just talking about, like I'm sitting across the room or in the other room or like, I'm like, how do I help my wife right now? How do I fix this situation? And the Holy spirit says, go to her. So this is your call. So it's not just that we're told to do it, it's not just that you have the comfort given to you already to comfort others, but it's also you get up and you go, you, you do it. You don't wait for someone to come to you because we might have this thought, well if someone needs comfort they're going to come and ask for it, they're going to come and knock on my door and say, "Hey, I need to talk, I need to sit down and know that you love me, and that you're my friend. And I need to-" [Jennifer] Yeah, 'cause if, that's... Yeah, 'cause if we sit there and we say, I'm just gonna wait until they tell me exactly what they need, what are you off the hook? [Aaron] Well, I mean, this is, what's funny is like do we even do that? Do we go around and tell every single person exactly what we need? No, we don't. [Jennifer] So I'm going even tell you, I want you to read my mind. [Aaron] That's true. But you're in your marriage. I think there should be a lot more communication about this by the way. So if you need comfort, you should go to your spouse if you have it in you and say, I need to be comforted, or I just need you to listen or will you just sit next to me? Like I think... Now that doesn't get you off the hook, husbands if your wife doesn't do that, or wives if your wife or husband, if your wife doesn't do that. [Jennifer] Yeah, I think our hearts should be tender toward one another, and our eyes should be always scanning and seeing where's my spouse at? [Aaron] Right, but it wouldn't hurt for us to communicate more. [Jennifer] True. [Aaron] But we can't expect everyone outside of our marriage to be that way. So we have to have a willingness to get up and go. It's not easy. Here's some stories of this happening. Okay, Genesis 37:35, "All his sons and all his daughters Rose up to comfort him. But he refused to be comforted and said, no I shall go down a shield to my son mourning. Thus, his father wept for him." This is when Joe Joseph's father thought he was dead. And they all, they all rose up and went to him to comfort him. They didn't just sit back and say, "Oh, he's mourning in the other room." Now they got up and they surrounded him. 1st Chronicles, 7:22 "And Ephraim their father mourned many days and his brothers came to comfort him." They didn't comfort from a distance, they didn't sit back, let him go through what he's going through by himself, they got up and they went. [Jennifer] I was gonna offer to read this next verse, but I think I'm going to let you tackle it. [Aaron] Okay. Job 2:11, "Now when job's three friends heard of all this evil that had come upon him, they came each from his own place. Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Namathite, they made an appointment together to come to show him sympathy and comfort him." So this is another really cool thing. Now, if you've read job these friends don't do a great job of comforting, they do actually do a lot of what I would be prone to do saying how would they were wrong or like what they did, but what they do what they did do well is they came together as friends, and they said, "our friend is really going through something bad, we should go." And so this is just a note of sometimes it's appropriate to say, "Hey, we need to get some people together to go comfort this person, so they're not alone, so that they know that we're here for them." Make a little plan about it. Yeah. [Jennifer] That's really cool. The first verse you mentioned it says that he refused to be comforted. And I just had a note that because I think that's very human to reject or to resist comfort. I don't know why we do that, but I think everyone can agree. Maybe everyone that when someone does try to comfort us, sometimes our reaction is to refuse that or to reject it. We shouldn't get upset by this if we're the ones trying to comfort someone or our spouse, we shouldn't let rejection keep us from trying again or even trying with others. Don't let that become an excuse for why you're not continuing on and other opportunities. But I think that it's interesting that it did note that he said that. So I just wanted to make a little- [Aaron] Yeah, but what's awesome is someone can't have the opportunity to reject comfort if someone didn't go to comfort in the first place. [Jennifer] That's true. [ Aaron] I love that, let's not avoid going to someone 'cause we think there's no way they want to right now they wanna be alone, let's just leave them alone. Going to be there even if they reject you, at least- [Jennifer] They know you tried. [Aaron] Yeah, and also you give them the option, rather than they're just alone and there is no option. No one came to them, no one reached out, no one sought to comfort. And so going to comfort is right. And then rejecting it. shouldn't stop us from trying. [Jennifer] And we shouldn't reject comfort when someone's... 'Cause that's an opportunity that someone's trying to act in what God has said we should be doing, right? like the Bible says to comfort. [Aaron] Yeah, but in some cases especially with like mourning it's a process. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's true, that's very compassionate. [Aaron] We should try to receive comfort, but sometimes where you could be in a really deep mournful state. [Jennifer] All good things to talk about. [Aaron] Going to the next thing, what is the appropriate response? Right, so you, you brought up helping someone is like taking off the edge. You can't bring the person back from the dead, you can't take away the cancer, you can't change the circumstance, but you can soften the blow. [Jennifer] Yeah, but that doesn't just mean that when someone's in pain, or going through a trial that you insert a funny joke, or you know what I mean? [Aaron] Are you sure? That's a great way to like someone's hurting really bad, you make a joke and laugh. [Jennifer] Maybe it depends on the person, but you should be mindful of the person, you should be mindful of your spouse. Discerning, yeah. Yeah discerning, that's a good word. [Aaron] Which is what I was talking about at the beginning is... And a lot of people have these responses, when someone gets hurt, I actually used to do this, when someone would get hurt, I would laugh about it. You've talked about that before. And so we have these kind of natural fleshly responses that just for whatever reason how we were raised in our DNA- [Jennifer] What did it do or how to understand it. [ Aaron] But learning and asking the Lord to teach us what is an appropriate response? It's good to go comfort, we want to do that, but we got to ask, we just got to ask for that discernment, because we can have the right heart and bring the wrong response, which is something that I keep going back to. This is how I've been, I might want to, but then I to say the wrong thing. I'm trying to prematurely cheer someone up, like you said, the joke, I'm trying to push someone to move on from where they're, what they're dealing with, which is something that I would tend to do. Like, hey- [Jennifer] When there really is a process. [Aaron] Well, I skipped the whole process, which doesn't care about the other person at all, what it does is it cares more about my discomfort with this person's suffering. Talking too soon, which is something I struggle with, 'cause I want to just fill that, that like, let's just figure it out, let's talk. [Jennifer] I love you still. [Aaron] Romans 12:15 says: "Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep." This gives a picture of walking with what someone's walking through with them. Someone's weeping for something. If they're weeping over a lost child, over a over sickness over just you name it, there's lots of things to weep over in this life, We don't just come in and be like cheer up buck. And you know, like, we should break.... Our hearts should break with them. When someone's rejoicing, rejoice with them. This is probably another conversation. But this is something that plagues the church I think sometimes is when someone gets some sort of success or something to rejoice in, we might get jealous. [Jennifer] So there's a lack of rejoicing for one- [Aaron] Yeah, I don't wanna rejoice with them 'cause like why didn't I get that? Or why are they being raised up? [Jennifer] So that played the church, but I think that it's more just the worldwide thing, it's a flesh thing. [Aaron] But if someone is winning, someone's successful, or if someone's has a praise report, if someone is having success in an area that you wish you had success in, or is having freedom and an area that you don't have freedom in, or like these things, like rejoice, they're part of the church, rejoice for them like that is so praise God. It also keeps us from that just contentment and Jealousy. [Jennifer] Another verse that we wanted to share with you guys today is Ecclesiastes 3:4 starts, and seven. It says: "A time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to tear and a time to sow a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." [Aaron] Yeah, and Ecclesiastes was written by the wisest man that ever lived. And he just talks about this idea of what time is it? Is it a time to weep with someone? Is at a time to laugh with someone? Is it a time to mourn with someone? You know, tear, like, are you pulling up that, you know, the plants are you planting, sowing, the seeds, are you to be quiet, are you to speak? And so there's these... We can look at the situation and say okay, what role can I play right now? How should my heart be in this situation? Proverbs 25:20 puts it this way: "Whoever sings songs to a heavy heart is like one who takes off a garment on a cold day and like vinegar on soda." That idea behind this verse is singing songs is a great thing. But when you go to someone with a heavy heart and you try and seem to like artificially cheer them up, it's doing what I just, what I said a second ago is you're overlooking that person's heart altogether. [Jennifer] Yeah, there's no care. [Aaron] It likens it to taking off a garment on a cold day. So like someone's cold and they've got their coat on and I go rip their court off. And they're like, what? So you, you take away comfort. You don't- [Jennifer] Add to it, yeah. Did anyone else think when you said like vinegar on soda, the volcano experiment? [Aaron] That's what that does, it forms up- [Jennifer] Like they've been doing it that long. [Aaron] The word would be agitate. The last thing someone who's going through something needs is to be agitated. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] I'm sure everyone listening, knows someone like that, that every time you need some comfort they know how perfectly out of agitate. [Jennifer] Okay, so earlier when I had mentioned, you know this idea of taking the edge off of pain and how it means to alleviate, I said that it reminds me of lifting up. What if it's like lifting up a huge stone off their shoulders so that they can breathe a little better? Is that a good picture? [Aaron] Yeah, and that's a great analogy. [Jennifer] It's like lifting the burden of the hard stuff off them which you've done for me plenty of times. [Aaron] Right, and we have this list of the things that you there's times for. Sometimes it's sitting quiet with someone, sometimes it's encouraging what the word of God and advice, sometimes it's listening and not talking. [Jennifer] Sometimes it's giving them a thoughtful gift that comes with a sweet message. Sometimes it's watching a couples, children so that they can go have a date night and talk it out themselves. [Aaron] Yeah, lifting that Like, Hey, there's these responsibilities, how can we take some of these away? So they can go through what they're going through with less. [Jennifer] Sometimes it's offering to drop off groceries for them, so they don't have to worry about that. [Aaron] Sometimes it's cleaning the house for someone for your spouse. I love that you like lifting that load off their shoulders. [Jennifer] Sometimes it's a text reminding them of who they are in Christ or sending them a scripture verse. [Aaron] Sometimes it's a bouquet of flowers sent to their house. Sometimes it's a bag of goodies dropped off at the door. I like that one by the way. [Aaron] It's actually happened to me quite a few times. And I really appreciate all of you. Actually, I mentioned it once in "Wife After God" pure joy, great chapter, go check it out. And it just happened recently. [Aaron] That was a good goody bag. We have some good goodie bag dropper offers. [Jennifer] Maybe we should do an episode of just like how to put together a good goodie bag. [Aaron] That's true. [Jennifer] Okay, I'm so sorry. Sometimes it's a phone call just to hear their voice. [Aaron] And then sometimes it's a prayer. And I would say always a prayer sometimes said out loud [Jennifer] Like sometimes all of these and then always a prayer, always a prayer. [Jennifer] I think they get the idea. You know, at the beginning of this episode, I quickly said marriage is so awesome. It really is you guys, I hope you agree with me that marriage is awesome. But it's such an intimate relationship. What a gift We have to share with someone who can comfort us when we're at our lowest and Aaron, I can attest to this, you have comforted me at my lowest, and I hope that I've been that for you. [Aaron] You have, yeah. At least, I think that this is what marriage was intended for, right? To lift other up and to comfort one another for some. And at times Aaron, we were, this couple were the 'cause of our hard time was, was our marriage and our marriage. It was each other getting in the way. And we had friends that stood by us, friends and family who stood by us and comforted us through it. If this is you listening right now, this is where you are, I just wanted to say that we're truly sorry. And understand that this kind of pain. The pain that comes from a marriage, that's struggling. And we hope you will find comfort in this verse that I'm gonna share. Paul is talking to believers but this is our prayer for you today. And it's Romans 15:1-7, "We who are strong, have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Let each of us pleases neighbor for his good to build him up for Christ did not please himself. But as it is written through approaches of those who reproached you fell on me, for whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the scriptures, we might have hope. May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another in accord, with Christ Jesus, that together you may, with one voice glorify the God and father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you for the glory of God." [Aaron] Yeah, I love that verse for couples that are going through this because the reminder is that, the God of endurance and encouragement grants them to live in such harmony with one another in accordance with Christ and so that they can, again like the God of all comfort, we talked about, that they can be comforted knowing that even though they're going through these difficult times, they themselves individually can run to Christ, be comforted by him and know that his heart is that they would walk in harmony. And that is what they should be praying for, Harmony. [Jennifer] And the comfort that we receive from Christ and the comfort that we receive from others does produce within our hearts and our minds this hope that better days will come. Even if circumstances don't change, even if the trials are still hard even if the pain is still prevalent, because of loss or or whatever the reason is, we have hope. Because we talked about this on the first episode of the season, and we have hope in Christ. We have hope for what's coming right? [Aaron] Yeah, and we should keep our eyes on those things. [Jennifer] So as husbands and wives, let us be quick to comfort one another during hard times. Let us lay down our lives and love for each other. Let us be slow to speak, quick to sit, fully present a good listener. [Aaron] Yeah, and let us walk this life out in humbleness. And when those feelings of insecurity and uncertainty or fear of rejection, rise up, be quick to push them away. We need each other. [Jennifer] Wait, I think you need to repeat that last line. We need ourselves know each other. [Jennifer] We need each other in marriage. [Aaron] We do. [Aaron] We need each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. [Aaron] And most importantly, we need each other to point each other back to Christ. like that's the most comforting thing we can do is constantly be praying for the other person in their walk with the Lord, in their mind being reminded of the truth of the gospel. It's the most comfort we can get is pursuing that. [Jennifer] And as we do, our eyes and our hearts need to be open. I'll say this, our eyes need to be open. And our hearts may be tender toward one another and take every opportunity. God gives us to comfort one another especially in our marriage relationship, and as we do this you guys, the greatest part is that God is glorified. [Aaron] Yep, and we can cover it because we've been comforted, so don't forget that. Hope that was encouraging to you. As always, we end the episode as always this season, I should say, we end the episode with what we're grateful for. [Jennifer] It might end up being a permanent thing. [Aaron] It might, yeah. Because we want to encourage you to be grateful for everything. [Jennifer] And we know that you are grateful but to acknowledge it and to vocalize it and to share it with someone that you know, and love. [Aaron] So we'll be grateful people, who know how to comfort each other. [Jennifer] Let them know what you're grateful for. [Aaron] I'm grateful for my children. They're so full of energy and life often more energy than I have. That's probably why I'm so tired. They love to have fun. Especially when we get down on the rug our new rug that we talked about, the one that's comfortable in my knees and wrestle and play with them. They're just awesome. I honestly thank God for them, they're so amazing. [Jennifer] I love them too. I'm grateful for modern technology. I realized that I have a great appreciation for my washing machine and dishwasher and just all the things that I get to use that have just been really awesome in my life. I was sitting on the couch the other day and I had a busy day with the kids doing school and playing and cleaning up after everyone. And I could hear the wash machine going. And I just thought, man I can't fathom everything that we did today and having to hand wash clothes. And so I just was really grateful that I have those ICM is a luxury. Like I, I never want to be blind to the provision that God's given us. And I'm just really grateful for those kinds of inventions. I think they're really cool. [Aaron] Yeah, so thank you to whoever invented the washing machine. [Aaron] As usual, we end our episodes in prayer. So would you pray with us, dear Lord thank you for comforting us in our affliction so that we may comfort others. We pray for the creativity and confidence as we comfort those around us, please us of how you desire to comfort others. Please show us thoughtful ways of showing our compassion. We pray we would be slow to speak and quick to listen. We pray we'd be quick to comfort one another in marriage protect our marriage in this way, that we would be comforters for each other. Help us to alleviate the burdens that bring us pain. May you be glorified as we choose to comfort others in Jesus name? Amen. We love you all. Thank you for joining us on this episode. We just ask if you haven't done so, would you leave us a review? And also would you be our share warriors and prayer warriors? Would you share this episode with a friend send him an email, send a text message share shared on social media. Would you just help spread the word about this podcast with someone, you know we love you and we'll see you next week.

We start season 4 off by sharing the story of our first home birth. READ TRANSCRIPT[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.[Aaron] And today we're gonna share our first home birth story. Welcome to the marriage after God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.[Jennifer] I am Jennifer, also known as unveiled wife.[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as husband evolution.[Jennifer] We have been married for over 13 years.[Aaron] And so far we have five children under eight.[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over nine years through blogging, social media and writing over 10 books.[Aaron] With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life...[Aaron] Love.[Jennifer] And power-[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.[Jennifer] Together.[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.[Jennifer] This is marriage after God.[Aaron] Hey everyone, welcome back to Marriage After God.[Jennifer] Season four.[Aaron] We're on season four. Yeah, this is crazy.[Jennifer] Awesome.[Aaron] We've had a lot of episodes, but we're back for season four. So if you're tuning in, welcome. If this is your first time, we're so glad that you're here. Listening to the Marriage After God podcasts. We pray that it's an encouragement to you and a blessing, but if you've been listening for a long time, welcome back. We're so excited to have you here.[Jennifer] Hi everyone.[Aaron] Yeah, and we're recording this in our garage as usual and it's still locked down season. And I know that a little interesting for everyone. It's interesting for us. Jennifer, have you had any thoughts about the season we're in with lockdown COVID-19 pandemic, unprecedented times.[Jennifer] Yeah, I mean, I've had some thoughts about it. I think what's been really a blessing is that we've been in postpartum season, so we had our baby and so we would have been kind of having a low key life anyways right now. Just with me resting, nursing is always usually an issue with our kids. Baby Edith had a tongue tie like several other of our children. And so the first couple of weeks was just basically me and her figuring that out. And so-[Aaron] I do feel like though we started self quarantine earlier because we were leading up to having the baby and then all of this stuff happened right around the same time as having the baby.[Jennifer] Yeah. I would say this we had a really good distraction from what was happening in the world. And so now we're kind of like coming up out of that we just hit the six week mark after having the baby. And I think the most important thing has been for me has been to communicate with you in navigating this pandemic and what the world looks like these days. And it gives me peace, being able to talk to you. It gives me a bit of relief and just knowing that I can share my thoughts, my concerns, whatever that I'm going through with you. What would you say?[Aaron] Well, same. We've been having a lot of conversations about it. We've also had a lovely conversation with our kids. It's kind of hard to like hide it from them cause why can't we hang out with our friends? Why can't we go out? And we're like, "Well, there's a lot of things going on the world." which is going on.[Jennifer] And as an encouragement to parents, I think it's so important that we really understand that our kids lean on us for security and support, especially in times like these. So when they have these big questions, we should be answering them. If they see us being able to have peace and hope and joy amidst the chaos it will give them guidance on how they can respond in times like these. if they sense in us fear and anxiety over the situation, then that could also influence them. So I think as parents, I think it's really cool to see that God has given us an opportunity with our kids to help them navigate this whole thing. And I think it's good for us to engage in conversation with them. It doesn't mean we have to explain everything, especially we can keep it age appropriate. But just being able to willing to have conversations with them.[Aaron] Well, and also being honest with them and letting them know that sometimes we don't have the answers. Like we don't know the appropriate way to respond to all this. We don't know exactly how this is going to turn out. We don't know... Like we just, there's a lot of answers we don't have.[Jennifer] And then we tell them, but our trust and our hope is in God. And so it's another opportunity to point them back to God and encourage their hearts to be able to trust God and I don't know, just to be able to move forward still in life and know that he has us.[Aaron] Yeah, and it's also been good to, I feel like in America we have a lot of comforts and this has shown us how dependent we might be on some comforts. And also brought us to a point that one of the other benefits to this is reminding us of our need for Christ, our need for his peace, his satisfaction, being satisfied in him alone. So one thing we've been trying to encourage our children, whether we catch it or not, whether we are always healthy, we don't know how this is going to turn out. We encourage them to know that God is good. God has us, he knows his plans for us and that we can't control all of those things, but what we can do is look to God who's in control.[Jennifer] Yeah, Aaron, you brought up comforts and especially living here in America. However this whole thing has also allowed us to see how people might be struggling. So you use the word comfort, but I also want to just mention that there's a lot people who've been greatly impacted by this whole thing in a negative way in a lot of different ways. So, I dunno if you want to speak to that.[Aaron] Well, yeah, we know that there's millions and millions of people that have lost their jobs. Some might not get them back. And so our hearts break for that situation. And we know that there's people that are sick. We know that there's people that are, that have other issues going on, that are not COVID-19 related and are having a hard time dealing with that. There's mental issues, there's abuse, there's a lot of things going on in this world that are being exasperated by this situation. And so-[Jennifer] As Christians, I think that we need to remember all of that especially if maybe we're in a different situation, but no matter what our hearts should be to be in prayer for everyone who's been impacted by it.[Aaron] And also been asking the Lord how we can be used.[Jennifer] Yeah, cause we're his body.[Aaron] We might know someone that needs some love, some reaching out, some help. And so we should be aware of that and ready for that. And we should be praying for each other. Praying for those that are going through hard situations and our prayers should not just be, "God, make their situation better."[Jennifer] Or even, "God let us go just back to normal."[Aaron] Right, because that's a thing that I have is like, "Hey, can we just go back to normal?" Our kids keep praying like God make this go away. They miss normalcy. But our prayer should be that hearts are softened. Hearts are turned towards the Lord, that people are brought back to the Lord, that people that don't know the Lord and find him, that families are healed and mended, that like these deeper things. That even if the body is broken, the spirit can be made whole. And so, yes, we should be praying for healing. Yes, it's good to pray for being taken care of financially and being taken care of in these ways. But right now, this is the time when man, the spirit of God catches hold of people. And so we should be praying that hearts are ready to receive. Hearts are open to hear the word of God are being watered and seeds are being planted. And that's, I mean, I don't know, more than anything. I want people to be saved in this time for eternity, not just for the season. So do you have any last thoughts on, I mean there's gonna be lots of thoughts.[Jennifer] I know we could probably do a whole episode on it. Two things. The first thing I was just thinking, if people are listening to this episode in the future. So like going-Yeah, after the-[Jennifer] After the fact, after all this has kind of settled down a bit. I just wonder what their thoughts would be just being reminded of this time. And then my other thought was just an encouragement and it's just for husbands and wives, it's an encouragement to be communicating with each other because no matter what your situation looks like right now you have someone right next to you who's going through it with you. And sometimes, I don't know those listening are like me, but sometimes I get caught up in my head where I'm having conversations in my head, even with you Aaron, and I'm like answering for you. But, then I realized I haven't actually talked to you in a couple of days about how I'm feeling or about what I'm thinking. So my encouragement is, especially in times like these that we are open and transparent and vulnerable specifically with each other.[Aaron] Yeah, I was also thinking, we are friends and families. Not being afraid to just come straight out and say, "Hey, how are you dealing with all this? "Hey, how's your heart? "Are you going through any sort of depression? "Is there any fears that you're like-[Jennifer] Yeah, are you okey?[Aaron] "that are just getting inside your heart." And just asking so that they can be maybe brought out of that darkness, maybe brought out of their shell and not be afraid to ask those questions. Cause I would imagine there's a lot of people dealing with hidden fears and anxieties right now.[Jennifer] And it's okay if you don't know how to answer them. It's okay if the greatest thing you can even say is I'm going to be praying for you or just stop and pray for them right then and there. But I think it was important that we just spend a little bit of time on that since this is such a huge thing going on in our lives right now. And our hearts go out to everyone. And we know this is just crazy, but God is good, like you said.[Aaron] And God's not surprised by any of this stuff. I just wanted to bring up a verse. James 1:12 says, Blessed is the the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Over and over again the New Testament speaks of steadfastness and continuing on and standing strong and standing firm. And I just want to encourage everyone, you believers out there, that we need to stand strong in the word of God and we need to remember who's got us, whose hand upholds us, who guides our steps and makes our paths and brings light into our life and it's God. And so we need to put our strength, our hope and strengths in him because they're not, and our hopes are not in the government. They're not in a vaccine, they're not in treatments, they're not in the, it just going away or those things are going to come and things happen, but we can't control any of this stuff. We just can't. And if we put our hope in those things that our hope is gonna fail. So let's put our hope in the only thing that's consistent, the only one that is a firm foundation and it's God and his word. And let's look to him for wisdom and guidance on how as believers we are to approach this thing that was going on. Cause he's the only, James also says, "If you lack wisdom, ask. "And we will be given wisdom as long as we do not doubt." And so let's ask him for wisdom. I need wisdom. We've been talking a lot about this man. Like how do we deal with all of these things? And we're definitely don't deal with it in fear, but we don't deal with it on our own strengths, our own wisdom. We lean not on our own understanding, but on every word, on God's wisdom. So that's what I just want to encourage everyone with is remain steadfast in these trials. And let's look to God for answers and our hope and for our courage and our wisdom.[Jennifer] And our peace.[Aaron] Oh, most importantly, our peace. So, that was just a bit of a encouraging word for everyone. We need it ourselves. I mean, he reminded ourselves, but I just want to invite everyone to, if you have children or if you're thinking about having children or if you're pregnant, we have something that we've created for you. It's a free resource and it's called the parenting prayer challenge. You can go to parentingprayerchallenge.com all one word and it's completely free to sign up and we will send you over the next 31 days, email with something to pray for and a reminder to pray for it. And it's pretty awesome. We've had almost a thousand people sign up for it and we would love for you to take advantage of it. We created it just for you. And man, it's an awesome thing and it reminds us as parents to pray for our children and there's awesome prompts in there to pray for all these different areas of your child's life. So yeah, we just, it's parentingprayerchallenge.com it's totally free and become part of the people that are going through that challenge.[Jennifer] All right, so today's topic is our first home birth story. No, it's not our first birth story. Obviously if you've followed us for any amount of time, this was baby number five. And, it's just kind of an interesting story and we're excited to share it with you guys.[Aaron] What's more interesting is that we actually fit every one of our kids and us inside of our explorer.[Jennifer] It's tightly, but it's good.[Aaron] It's tight. But that was just a fun little adventure that we figured out.[Jennifer] Aaron was surprised by that.[Aaron] I was a little surprised. They would fit without car seats. But the trick is as we have five car seats. We have actually we have-Four cars seats.[Aaron] four cars and two boosters or is it three car seats, two boosters.[Jennifer] Right.[Aaron] And just the way it's all arranged, we barely fit. It will be a lot better when some of them are out of their boosters. That'll make a big difference, but-[Jennifer] That's okay. Thanks for sharing. so the first four births were done in the hospital and we were happy with those experiences and we had the same, what's it called? It's not a goal. Same birth plan.[Aaron] Our plan was, we'd love to having children in the hospital, actually really love our local hospital here.[Jennifer] And food is so good.[Aaron] The rooms are just really nice and quite.[Jennifer] The people are so nice.[Aaron] It's been good. So we're not opposed to hospital births by any means.[Jennifer] No, we had that plan held in our hands. My whole pregnancy really, and the word changed that at the finish line.[Aaron] Pretty much, yeah.[Jennifer] And so it was our first home birth and I got gotta be honest, I was nervous. Even in the past I've been nervous to even consider a home birth, even though I know people and I've followed people online that have had them.[Aaron] And even though your pregnancies and labors have all been considerably like easy, not easy and-Easy is a funny word-[Aaron] It's safe, I should say.[Jennifer] Yes. Not emergency or anything.[Aaron] Nothing, you haven't had any big emergencies. It's like it just, it goes as planned usually.[Jennifer] Yeah. So anyways, I don't know. We just, we held our birth plan loosely as we believe people should and we submit it to the Lord. And really the last trimester is when all of the world started falling apart with the pandemic. And even more so in the last few weeks of my pregnancy. Protocols at the hospital started changing.[Aaron] They started limiting the number of people that could be in the rooms.[Jennifer] We started seeing a lot more articles online being shown stories of that happening. And I came home from one of my last appointments and I was sharing with Aaron these changes that had just been made and we were about to have our baby and I, there was a part of me that just was wondering what is the hospital experience going to be like? And we're just sharing some of our thoughts with each other.[Aaron] And we also, because a big part of this conversation is what was going on in the world. It wasn't just like whether or not we wanted to have a home birth. It was what is our, what does this situation look like for us amidst all of like the virus that's going around. And so we were discussing this and I just wanted to let everyone know that our number one discussion was, are we afraid? Are we gonna be in fear? Are we gonna make decisions or are we gonna be going into this with any anxieties? Because those are realities like, "Oh my gosh, we got to go to like the hospital, "which is where everyone goes that has, "that gets the virus." So that was a part of this conversation was. We are not going to be afraid regardless. Like whether we are going to be exposed or not. We want to have no fear. We want to trust the Lord because he does know what's going on, so.[Jennifer] Totally. Yeah, and also so everyone knows Aaron has been an advocate for home birth for several of my pregnancies. You would ask me like, "Hey, are you interested this time?"[Aaron] I've been pushing for a while.[Jennifer] But you've always been supportive too of what we've decided together. And so, when I came home from that appointment, I shared everything with you. And you suggested it again. You're like, "What about a home birth?" And I'm like, I kind of laughed about it. I was like, no, no, no, no. Like if I'm too far in my pregnancy that's crazy talk, I would have to adjust mentally and it just seems-[Aaron] And I would even be able to get a midwife. How is this gonna work?[Jennifer] It seemed impossible. And you were so hopeful and you're like, "Why don't you just call them and just see what's going on? "Cause maybe they've talked to other people about this." And so I made the phone call and no one answered. And I said, "See, okay, so we're not doing that."[Aaron] Did you leave a message?[Jennifer] Yeah. So by the end of that day, I had been praying and it had been on my heart just to consider both a hospital birth or a home birth. And the Lord gave me so much peace and I was okay with either one.[Aaron] And the same, yeah.[Jennifer] So when I said earlier about having an open hand, having my birth plan and an open hand and open heart, it was this piece that I had that was like, no matter what happens or how I give birth, it's the Lord.[Aaron] I actually remember, I think it was a, I don't know the exact date, but it was about a week before this. You posted a picture of the kids or something on Instagram and you wrote this beautiful thing saying, "Hey, here's my birth plan. "We want to do this." And you said, "but open-handed of course."[Jennifer] Yeah, it was an infant story and it was right at the bottom.[Aaron] And I said, but open-handed of course. And you had this whole idea. And it was before everything started getting really crazy. News-wise, but I remember you got someone messaged you and said, "Please don't have it at the hospital." Cause they were so concerned that's where you shouldn't be. And there were, it was so loving and so concerned. And we saw that and we're like, huh. But we didn't like talk about it.[Jennifer] I didn't think about it.[Aaron] But looking back on it, I was like, "Oh, that was kinda cool. "It was like open handed." Someone was like encouraging you in that direction, but.[Jennifer] So anyways, we were praying about it, but we hadn't heard back from the midwife and until the next morning. Give me some questions and I think they were just being really nice given the situation of what was happening in our world and our state. But because I had established care throughout my pregnancy, I didn't have any-[Aaron] There was no flags.[Jennifer] There was, yeah, there was no red flags, there was no problems or issues that I had throughout my pregnancy. My past pregnancies have been healthy and my labors have been fine and I haven't needed interventions or anything like that. And so they said yes and they were willing to meet with me that day.[Aaron] Which is they never do.[Jennifer] I just felt-[Aaron] They were willing to do this in this season for you.[Jennifer] Yeah. It just felt like an impossible situation that God just said, "Here, this is what I want you to walk through." And I got off the phone almost in tears because I then I had to tell Aaron that it was a go and I was, I was like, okay but like, yeah, this is, I didn't know, I was speechless really. I don't know how to explain that.[Aaron] Did you want not to tell me?[Jennifer] No, no, no, no, but I, and there was a part of me that was really excited, like I have never done a home birth before. Like how cool that I get to do this now. And then my next immediate thought was, "Oh my gosh, are we prepared for this?" Because I didn't know. I hadn't been researching about what to have for a home birth. So that, the next thing-[Aaron] I know is a little weird to think about. Like, what am I supposed... Am I supposed to have anything?[Jennifer] Yeah. So the other cool thing is that we didn't really need much. I felt like what I had like in my hospital bag and things at home already we were prepared for. There's just a couple of other things that you went out to get like an extra set of sheets and I don't remember.[Aaron] Some pillows and something like that.[Jennifer] I don't remember.[Aaron] The midwife give you a list of things. We had like 90% of the things on the list already.[Jennifer] Yeah. And they provided-[Aaron] There was only a few things I had to get. So that was pretty cool.[Jennifer] Then I had to wrap my head around it mentally and that just took prayer and me so many into God and saying, okay Lord, help me transition.[Aaron] Yeah, I think you mentioned a little bit ago that I've tried, I've been a proponent for home births and you said you don't know and I was okay with you doing hospital births, but I remember you saying like, "I'll do it when I have to."[Jennifer] Yeah like if something's gonna push me to do it, then I will. Like I'm not opposed to it. I just, I'm not ready for that yet.[Aaron] And I was like, "Maybe this is the thing making you have to," but it was perfect cause it was what you had committed to in your heart was like, "Well, when I have to, I will." And this was kind of one of those situations where I was like, we didn't have to, it would probably would have been totally fine, but we had the opportunity.[Jennifer] Well that's the thing is at the end of that day, I just knew I had peace that, or I'm sorry that the day before I knew that God would help us through no matter what we chose, whether it was home birth or hospital. And I had so much peace about it and I think that's why getting off the phone with the midwife, I was excited and okay and yet nervous about it.[Aaron] Of course yeah.[Jennifer] It was so neat that God provided a way for that. And so we started preparing for that. We started telling the kids we were cleaning the house, we were making a way for that to take place. And it was just a really exciting time for our family. A very short time.[Aaron] Yeah. Though the week prior, I was on maybe five days before we had the baby, I took the, we do have a chalkboard in our kitchen I did a little game with the kids and I said, I want, so who, what day do you think mom is gonna have the baby? And we started doing this voting and I would put down like, do you think it's going to be Monday? And it was like, leading up to the due date. And so everyone put their little dates down, even Truett voted. And I'm just bringing this up because me and Elliot were right. And so, we actually voted for the due date, which was the 20th.[Jennifer] I actually remember coming out and you explaining this whole thing to me and Elliot looking up at me going, "Mom, the reason I chose your due date is because 'you haven't had a baby on your due date yet." And he just thought that would be so cool.[Aaron] Yeah, and that's why we actually voted that because I feel like all the babies have been either right before or right after and it wasn't like way after.[Jennifer] Yeah, well Elliot, our first and Truett our fourth, were both due, were both born a day before their due date. Olive was three days past. And Wyatt was eight days past.[Aaron] Yeah, he was a big baby. But so we voted for the 20th, which is pretty cool because you were having like on the 19th, I remember you were kind of having some contractions but it didn't like go anywhere. And then the 20th, when did they start?[Jennifer] So I didn't have any, like I wasn't feeling any contractions the day before, but I just felt like it was going to happen soon. Like I could just tell my body was getting ready. But contractions started at about 1:30 in the morning, on her due date.[Aaron] Oh, that's what that, okay. It was 1:30 in the morning. That when it was.[Jennifer] Yeah. And they started and they were pretty close together. I mean seven, eight minutes apart, pretty consistently for a few hours. And then we got disrupted. Truett woke up, which he never does with a huge explosion, poop explosion. I'm trying to keep it clean here.[Aaron] It was horrible. It was all over his bed. It was all over him.[Jennifer] I've never had an experience like with having five kids now, I've never had an experience like this. So to be contracting and have that, I'm like, wait a minute.[Aaron] What time was that?[Jennifer] It was like five o'clock in the morning.[Aaron] It was early. So I'm up, like we're putting him in the bath and there's like poop everywhere. It was like, so gross.[Jennifer] So I told Aaron, you go lay in bed with him and since I'm up anyways, I'll do the laundry and-[Aaron] We couldn't put him back in his bed. It was like a war zone.[Jennifer] It was crazy. So now that you guys are all grossed out, I know. I feel like that just distracted my mind and body or maybe that's just the way it was supposed to be. But contractions kind of slowed down and were more sporadic. So it was like 11 to 15 minutes apart for a long time. I mean hours and I have a cute story, another cute story about Truett. This one's cleaner. About 10 o'clock in the morning I came out of the bedroom and Aaron had been hanging out with the kids and you left to go to the bathroom or something. And I started contracting. I had a big contraction and so I threw two pillows down on the living room floor and I was kneeling in front of them because I was gonna kind of try and either lay down or hold them. And Truett comes up and lays down on the pillows looking up at me and I'm just like on my hands and knees looking down at him. But I'm like trying to breathe through this contraction and he's just smiling. It was like a little redemptive moment for us, but it was sweet. So I labored all day at home. And one cool thing that I wanted to share with you guys is, the night before I went into labor, I was doing a little bit of research and just reading people's home birth stories that they've shared on their blogs. And I can't remember exactly who's I read, but she said this, she said, "Through every contraction "I used the opportunity to pray for someone else. "My husband, my children, friends." And I remembered that as soon as I started contracting and I said, "Oh, I'm gonna do that." I was determined. I was like committed to it, to this idea of prayer throughout each contraction. And it was such a beautiful experience. You guys, every time a contraction came, I would quickly think of someone who I would want to pray for my family, friends, really random things that, I kinda just like allowed the Lord to bring to my mind in that moment, whatever he wanted me to pray for. And so I would pray from the beginning of the contraction, throughout to the end. And not only was it a good distraction from the pain, but what a cool experience to use that opportunity to draw closer to the Lord and to lift up others. Like it was just, I recommend that for anyone going through labor. It was so beautiful.[Aaron] Yeah, it was actually beautiful to watch because you told me you're like, I'm using contractions to pray. And I was like, "Oh, that's awesome."[Jennifer] Yeah. What was actually even crazier was there was this one contraction that I was determined to pray for kids who during specifically this pandemic and stay having stay at home orders who have experienced abuse at home. And I had seen something on social media, maybe Facebook about this. And I hadn't thought about it before then. And so it stood out to me. And so, the contraction started and I started praying for these kids who are at home and possibly experiencing abuse. And as I was praying, you guys, the contractions started building up and becoming more intense and more painful. And it hadn't been like this in all the other contractions and it lasted the longest. And I just kept praying for these children. And by the end of it, I remember telling you, Aaron, that I felt like the Lord was showing me like almost like in relation to their pain, how bad my contraction was. It was kind of really interesting, but my heart just broke for that.[Aaron] Yeah, I think I remember you were crying a little bit in that one.[Jennifer] So, anyways, if you guys are pregnant or if you are gonna have a baby and you're thinking about contracting. I don't know, just remember this, pray, use that time to pray for other people. It's really cool.[Aaron] It's a similar experience to fasting. Like the point of fasting is when the hunger pains come on. When your flesh wants to be fed or to be consoled, we pray. It's the trigger point to pray. I wanted to just bring up a verse real quick, just talking about this whole experience because we have so many plans in life, we have this, we set in our mind how we want something to happen, how we want something to go. I mean, I don't think it was in anyone's mind that the world was going to change the way it's changing, but guess what? It changed. And things are changing every day. And, Proverbs 19:21 says, Many are the plans in the mind of a man but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. And so it's awesome. I mean, in this situation, we got circular, whatever your purposes, we want that to stand. We'd get, of course we have plans. We're going to make plans, there's many of them. But are we gonna be irritated when our plans get foiled? When our plans don't come true and we get blinded to see like, well, what is God doing? Like, God apparently wants something else to be happening right now. That's contrary to my own plans. And so when we can say, "Okay, Lord, like yes, we've made plans, "but what we want more is your purposes to be, to stand."[Jennifer] That's really good.[Aaron] So that's kind of what we saw happening here. And there's other things that God had in store for this, but I just wanted to point everyone back to God's purposes.[Jennifer] Awesome. So as my contractions progressed, they got a little bit closer together and, but nothing really was like showing us that delivery was soon. So this was probably around nap time. So I remember Aaron coming in the bedroom after he laid the kids down and, you just started praying for me and you weren't telling God what to do because we don't do that. But you were like, let's get the show on the road. I want to meet my daughter. And you were really excited for things too.[Aaron] Well, I remember you told me, like, you're not, you don't know why it's slowed down. You're like, I feel like we were getting somewhere. Cause we were, it was getting, they were getting closer and closer and closer and consistent. And then it was like, they just totally like tapered off and slowed down. They were still there, but, and you were just like, I don't know. And I was like, "Well, let's pray about it."[Jennifer] Yeah, and it was kind of a sporadic day, like a very, like when I think about my other four and I even told the midwives this, when I first met them that with my other four kids, once contraction started, they would-They don't stop.[ Jennifer] they don't stop and they just keep going. And then I have the baby and they're generally short labors and this was not like that. This was just different and-[Aaron] Maybe being home made you much more relaxed.[Jennifer] I don't know. I don't know what it was, but I do think this, something that was on my mind. And I remember sharing this with you after you prayed for me, was that I love end times, when we think about Christ return and all of that, and there's a verse, people probably know what I'm referring to, but it's in Matthew 24. And one of the disciples asked when the end of the age is going to come and Jesus goes off explaining the Wars and rumors of Wars and famines and all these things that are hard. And then at the very end, he said, all of these are, but the beginning of the birth pains. So they're like contractions and-[Aaron] He points out the world chaos as contractions, just like in labor.[Jennifer] Yeah, until the delivery of our King.[Aaron] Which showed off light and distant and they get more and more aggressive and closer together.[Jennifer] But sometimes they also slow down. It's kind of like, we get these moments of peace and everything's great. And everything in the world seems to be going fine. And then you get this really big contraction or you get this really painful one, or you get this really long one. And you're like, "Wow, this is not stopping." And so I felt like the Lord kind of gave me this picture with what I was physically and experiencing and enduring, with how sporadic the day was with my contractions and showing him a picture of the world and saying, sometimes it feels like you're about to have that baby. And then it slows down and stops. And there's this rest period.[Aaron] Well, and I wanna expound on that encouragement a little bit, because I think as the church at large, would it be valuable for us to continue to remember that we do have? The Lord is returning. And the things that he's shown us in scripture, like what we see going on in the world, the Wars, the rumors of Wars, the pestilence, the massive earthquakes, the volcanoes, all these things, like everything. Like the chaos in the world, there birth pains. And so it could look scary, but for the believer for the one who has our faith in Christ.[Jennifer] We know it's to come.[Aaron] There's something good coming on the other end. The Bible says, that in birth, the woman is in pain, but once the baby comes, she's forgotten the pain. And the point is of course you don't forget the pain, but the thing that you've been waiting for and going through the pain for is now here.[Jennifer] I think there's a version of the Bible that says that she's in anguish. Is not even just pain. It's like emotional and physical and it's draining.[Aaron] So church believers, we can look at the world and these things that we see going on the world shouldn't cause fear in us, it should bring us hope. And that's what even Jesus has. He says, I tell you these things that you might have hope because when we see these things, as the believer, we know what they mean. Just like when I see my wife going into contractions, I don't think, what's happening? I think, "Oh man, the more painful "and the more close these get together, "the sooner I'm gonna meet my daughter." And so even though it's painful and it's a struggle and it's a trial, it's temporary. And we even know that Paul says, "I know that our current struggles "are nothing to be compared with the coming glory." So I just want to encourage you believers out there that, the Bible, Jesus and the Bible gives us this idea of birth pains for a reason, because the example we get in birth of the contraction starting far apart, we get to look at the things going on the world and say, wow, the more that we see these, the closer they get together, it should turn our eyes up to look for our savior.[Jennifer] Yup. That's good. So, I feel like right after you prayed over me during that nap time, the Lord must have heard because things started picking up-[Aaron] Pretty quick.[Jennifer] pretty quickly. The contractions started getting closer together, more painful and just really the signs of labor were just all converging. And what was really cool was Olive's home. And so she got to participate. I remember so many times-[Aaron] Another benefit of having the baby at home.[Jennifer] Yeah, our four year old little daughter, almost five, was so thrilled to be able to participate in it. And she would, I would be on that big, the big bouncing ball, through contractions and she'd be sitting in front of me on my bed and she'd reach out and put her hand on my leg and encourage me. She'd rub my arms.[Aaron] Shoulders.[Jennifer] She'd look up at me and she go, "Mom, you can do this." Or she'd caught pretty much copy Aaron, anything that Aaron did, she'd do five minutes later. So she'd say, mom, she'd see a contraction coming. She goes, "Mom, just breathe." And then she breath with me-[Aaron] Yeah cause I kept reminding you like breathe, open your mouth.[Jennifer] Yeah, so that was really sweet. There was a handful of time. She prayed for me.[Aaron] What was that thing she told you? There was a moment as you got closer and you were just like, I think you said, I can't do this. Or I don't think I could do this. That's what it was. I don't think I could do this. What did she say?[Jennifer] She said, "You could do it, mom." I don't remember.[Aaron] It was really powerful. She was like, "You can do it mom. "And actually you have to do it the baby is coming."[Jennifer] Yeah. She's serious.[Aaron] She was good.[Jennifer] She's so funny, but such an encourager. And actually now she would love to be a midwife when she grows up after realizing what they do, handling mamas and babies all day.[Aaron] She wasn't freaked out by any of it.[Jennifer] No, she was such so strong. So yeah, things started picking up and I knew I was getting closer. So we called the midwife to come check on us and my friend Angie, who was going to be present at the birth. And another thing that I wanted to share with you guys is one of my desires from the beginning of this pregnancy was-[Aaron] Plans.[Jennifer] I mean, yeah. Was to praise my baby out. And I know it sounds kind of weird, but I've heard other phrases of like breathing the baby out or just letting your body kind of push the baby out. But my heart was that I would worship God throughout the whole experience. And I wanted to be like highly aware that I was able to do this during labor and delivery. And not only did Olive remind me to be singing very loudly because she was doing that. We had a specific playlist that we were playing and the songs like Waymaker and I Will Wait For You by Shane and Shane, like just some really great songs.[Aaron] Did you have in Christ alone in there?[Jennifer] In Christ alone, it was my Anthem throughout pregnancy. I just, I played that song every day. I just, I love that song and it was actually the song she was born too, which is really cool.[Aaron] It came on, and then-[Jennifer] She came.she came.[Jennifer] It was so cool you guys. And also Angie, cause I have a really close relationship with her. She knew this was a desire of mine. And towards the end specifically, I remember hearing her voice saying, "Jen remember to praise," like remember to sing, remember to worship and as hard as it was because I was giving birth and it's hard to even breathe at that time to be able to sing. It was like, my flesh was like, I don't want to do that right now. And then I heard the words of the song playing and I would just jump in and start singing. It was such a cool experience.[Aaron] I think you were singing it while you were pushing her out. Like it was that-[Jennifer] I was saying, "God you're good, " I feel so good."[Aaron] Yeah, it was pretty powerful and what's awesome is, another one of your plans and your heart's desire was to be like ministering and you wanted your labor to be a witness and a blessing to the nurses at the hospital.[Jennifer] I was just gonna say to the nurses at the hospital, it was one of my prayers throughout the pregnancy. I was praying for their hearts. I was praying for whoever was present at the birth to see God in it, whether it was in our relationship and the way we were interacting or in the actual birth. But my heart was that God would use this labor and delivery in a purposeful way in the hearts of those who were experiencing it alongside me, but what I didn't know was, I had been praying for the nurses and doctors. And then at the last minute we changed to a home birth.[Aaron] But God knew.[Jennifer] But God knew who was going to be there.[Aaron] And I remember that, I mean, you're singing worship songs. You're like are just the way we were interacting was really peaceful, really strong, really calm. And with our daughter there and just, I feel like the whole experience was very worshipful. It was really peaceful, really cool. And I know that it impacted the midwives that were there.[Jennifer] I hope so.[Aaron] First of all, they were awesome.[Jennifer] They were amazing.[Aaron] Really quiet, really calm like just really in control.[Jennifer] But also attentative.[Aaron] And attentative, yeah. And I remember afterwards, one of the midwives was saying, what did she say? We are truly honored to be a part of this. It almost looked like she's gonna cry. I don't know if she was or not, but it looked like they were truly like blessed if anything, by your labor, babe, like you did such a good job.[Jennifer] I praise God.[Aaron] Yeah it was awesome.[Jennifer] So little Edith joined us at five on the dot.[Aaron] Five o'clock yeah.[Jennifer] 5:00 PM on her due date with bright copper red hair. It's so beautiful.[Aaron] Yeah, we're praying really hard right now. And if you want to pray with us that she keeps that hair.[Jennifer] Oh, it's okay. It's just, all of our kids are blonde, so I'm assuming it'll change, but it's such a sweet color, especially in the side.[Aaron] Olive came out with really dark hair.[Jennifer] Yeah, it wasn't as red, but it was-[Aaron] It wasn't as red, Wyatt came out with like a-[Jennifer] Well, he was bald and so it was Truett.[Aaron] But its cute when it grew and it was a little red.[Jennifer] It was like a strawberry blonde. He's still kind strawberry blonde.[Aaron] But she is like, you were looking at it right now. It's super, she's super red.[Jennifer] She's sleeping. So anyways, all to say this, you guys, it was a really neat experience to be able to have a peaceful home birth. I thank the Lord that my past pregnancies and history was there. They were fine. And there was no interventions or-[Aaron] No complicated ones.[Jennifer] Yeah, there was no complications or anything like that. And that the Lord gave me the confidence to be able to say yes to this and that we were able to lean on each other, Aaron, to be able to do that.[Aaron] Do you feel like it was what God wanted?[Jennifer] I do. I feel like he had a plan from the beginning that he just didn't reveal to me until the end. Maybe he knew that's what I needed. I don't know.[Aaron] And we have no idea what God's doing in the hearts of those ladies that were with us and we need to keep praying for them because we don't know where they're at.[Jennifer] Or a daughter.[Aaron] Or a daughter. Yeah, But I mean-[Jennifer] I mean we know what's going-[Aaron] She's gonna become a midwife nurse.[Jennifer] She had all kinds of questions afterwards, but she just, she was thrilled to be able to participate in that way. I know it made her feel super special.[Aaron] So here's a question, probably all the pregnant ladies are thinking, would you do it again?[Jennifer] I remember texting a friend that later that night and she goes, so how was it? And I'm like, I'm a fan.[Aaron] Cause we have several people be like, "You can do this, you can do this." Cause we have a lot of friends that have done home births, almost all their kids, I think. And so they've been, they were really cheering you on another excited that you're like switched. And we know it's not for everybody.[Jennifer] But here, it's also something that I just keep telling myself as it's open. So like, even if we ever had another baby, I would be okay with having it in the hospital or at home. So it's just really submitting that to the Lord and saying, what do you want? This is for you.[Aaron] So babe I know there's probably a lot of women that are considering a home birth. If they've never had one before, how would you encourage someone who's already considering this?[Jennifer] Well for someone that's already considering it, I would just say again, pray about it and submit it to the Lord. Talk about it with your husband and do what research you need to do. All the questions that you might have surrounding it, go ask them, ask your friends, ask your care providers. Whoever's looking after you. But don't be afraid of it. I had a good friend tell me, like having a baby is not an emergency. It's a natural thing that God built our bodies to do.[Aaron] It's a good encouragement.[Jennifer] And we need to be able to trust that God's design works. Now there's a lot of cases out there where for whatever reason, someone needs to give birth in a hospital or someone needs an intervention and that's okay, too. So even for someone who's already planning a home birth or someone who desires a home birth, even they have to hold that birth plan loosely in their hands and submit it to the Lord and say, "God, what do you want from me?" And he might even change their plans to be a hospital birth. And I think the greatest thing is to just have peace no matter what that plan is and say, God, it's yours.[Aaron] Yeah, something I just want to remind everyone also is, and if you're not having caught it yet, we talk a lot about how our lives are to be ministry. It's not just like we have ministry over here. Like, "Oh, I work at this church "or I have this job over here. "That's some sort of ministry which no, those are bad." But when we realized that when Christ comes into us, when we have the Holy spirit, our life now is a ministry being poured out. We're being poured out into the world. We're lights set up on a hill. And so even in our home birth, we are doing ministry. Our life and the way we present ourselves and the way we react to each other and interact with each other and interact with the midwives and those around us is how the gospel is spread in the world. It's by our words and our actions, it's not by this thing set over here. And that happens once a week or every other week or once a month. It's everything we do. And if you're wondering what that looks like, ask God, say God, "How's my life? How is the things that we're pursuing, our labors, our work, our at home life, our schooling, our jobs, our everything? Our hobbies. How are we representing you everywhere we are? Because we are the body of Christ. Where we go, Christ goes. And so that's what we, our heart was for this labor. And it's what our heart is for this podcast, is what our heart is for our books, for our home, for our neighborhood. And so if you haven't thought that way, our parent hope is that your mind would be changed and that you would start to realize and recognize that every bit of your life is the Lords. And he desires it to be a offering to him. He desired, he calls us to be living sacrifices. And so, that's, what's amazing is we can be at home doing home birth, something that we don't need, didn't plan and say, "Okay, Lord, how are you gonna use this for you? "What do you want from us? "How can we participate in what you're doing "in the lives of those that are going to be here? "And also, what are you gonna do in us?" Cause there's a lot that God did in us, challenging us and changing our minds about things and showing us how to trust him more. So that was a little bit about our home birth story, which we think it's, God's story of course, all of our births. I wouldn't say this birth was any better than any of the other ones. Cause they all were amazing. I love meeting my children, but I did love a lot doing it at home. I really enjoyed it.[Jennifer] I really did too.[Aaron] So husbands out there, it was a pretty awesome experience if your wife is considering it, just know it's pretty awesome. You're home, it's more comfortable you're in your bed. If you have other children, they get to participate and see how it and know what's going on. And it was a really cool thing anyways. Yeah, that was our story, is there any last thing you wanna add?[Jennifer] I feel like, no, I think that what we shared was really cool and I'm, I just want everyone to hear me say that I love you and that I'm really proud of you. You're a really awesome support for me, especially during that time of labor and delivery and managing our other four kids during the whole thing. I just really love doing life with you and I'm excited that the podcast is back up and we're in season four. So I'm excited to be doing this with you.[Aaron] Awesome. Well, that was really nice. Thank you babe. I love you too and ditto and all of that. And bonus baby Edith this year and she is awesome.[Jennifer] She's doing really great.[Aaron] She's starting to smile and she's, I want her to cue a lot more, but she's just barely started.[Jennifer] She likes open's her mouth like she's gonna and then she just sit there and wait, she doesn't do it.[Aaron] She teases us, but she is so sweet. All right. We love you all. My hope that was an encouragement to you and a blessing. We're praying for you. We pray that God just moved mightily in your marriages and uses you for mighty things for his kingdom, wherever you're at. And during the season of chaos and craziness, just remember God's our peace and our hope.[Jennifer] And he is good.[Aaron] And he is good. And if you have been wavering in your faith in the Lord, I pray that you would just ran to him like, like you've never ran to him before and that you would surrender everything. He's the only thing worthy of giving your entire life to, and one day we're gonna be able to spend eternity with him.[Jennifer] One day soon.[Aaron] Birth pains.[Jennifer] Yeah.[Aaron] So-[Jennifer] We'll just pray through those contractions.[Aaron] As usual, Jennifer will you pray's out?[Jennifer] Dear father, you are the giver of life. Thank you for the gift of children. We pray we would have a deep understanding of children and we pray for a strong desire to bless the children in our lives. We pray, we would understand our purpose and role in raising children that know you. May our examples of life and marriage and everything show them the way that honors and glorifies you. Lord we also pray and ask for your peace to be in all of our hearts and in all of our homes, especially when the world seems to be lacking peace. Help us to be confident in trusting you for everything. In Jesus name. Amen.[Aaron] Amen. We love you all. If you haven't left us a review, would you take a moment and do that today? Those reviews help us rank in all the podcast apps and it also lets people know what the podcast is about and what other people think. If you have a lot to review, you are awesome. Thank you so much. Don't forget to get the, to take the challenge. It's parentingprayerchallenge.com. We talked about in the beginning of the show. We love you and we'll see you next week.[Aaron Voiceover] Did you enjoy today's show? if you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Our physical health and learning how to take care of our bodies have played a large role in our growth of the years. In the beginning of our marriage, we dealt with sexual issues and after 4 and a half years living with those problems we finally discovered what we believe was a major contributor to those problems. We began replacing our toxic products with non-toxic products and almost immediately found healing in the area of intimacy. We have had many people over the years ask what kinds of products we use now and so in this episode we share a little of our journey and the products we like to use. Pleas enjoy! PRAYERDear Lord,Thank you for our bodies. We pray we would be good stewards of our bodies and consider all that goes on them and in them. We pray we would be willing to take the time and research the items we use on a daily basis, using things that help us and not hurt us. Lord, we ask that you would give us wisdom as we navigate living a healthy lifestyle. Help us to make good choices and be on the same page in marriage so that we can enjoy the benefits of living toxic-free. Please help us not to be overwhelmed by the process of learning, but rather, help us to be humble and willing to learn so that we can choose what is healthy for us and be advocates of healthy living for the sake of others. We pray living healthy would not become an idol in our lives and would not hinder any of our relationships. May we be people who don't just consume, but who are about our bodies and take care of them.In Jesus’ name, Amen! Some things mention this episode. http://Parentingprayerchallenge.comhttps://shop.marriageaftergod.com/products/the-unveiled-wife-embracing-intimacy-with-god-and-your-husband-by-jennifer-smithhttps://ENG.orghttps://unveiledwife.com/oils/https://norwex.bizDr. Bronner’s - https://amzn.to/2vRCQ91https://www.bendsoap.com/Native Deodorant - https://amzn.to/2VXpWkzBert's Bees - https://amzn.to/3cPJkpNBurt's Bees 100% Natural Moisturizing Lipstick - https://amzn.to/3aKRNs7Ancient Minerals Magnesium Lotion - https://amzn.to/2TQu6YT READ TRANSCRIPT[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helpin' you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna share with you our favorite non-toxic products. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as, Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as, Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life-- [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] and power, [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly, after God's will of our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Welcome back everyone to another episode of Marriage After God. We are happy to have ya, and today we are just going to share some, it's kinda like a funner episode, where we're gonna share, not just our non-toxic products, but why we choose those, and part of our story. [Aaron] Yeah, and well, we've had a lot of people over the years, kind of, 'cause we've talked about our journey with health, and we talk about products we use, and you have people often asking, "Well, what do you use?" [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And so-- [Jennifer] A large portion of my first book, "The Unveiled Wife," you know, talked about our journey, you know, figuring some stuff out, and so, we'll probably start there. [Aaron] Yeah, but it'll be fun. We believe that it's good to have a healthy life, I mean, everything we talk about it spiritual, but there's something to be said about, taking care of our bodies, and being careful with what we're putting on, being thoughtful, we even talk about, yeah, we talk about this often in our books, we talk about it in our life. We actually try and live it also, doesn't mean we're perfectly healthy in every aspect, but what's been awesome about it also is, we actually have less stuff, which is cool. So we'll talk about that a little bit too. So first, before we get into that, why don't you give a little update on baby Edith? [Jennifer] Yeah, is everyone as anxious as I am to meet her? I'm-- [Aaron] Some people are probably like, "They're having another baby?" [Jennifer] I know, [Aaron] Yes we are, number five. [Jennifer] Yep, I'm 38 weeks, and just starting to feel like way more ready and prepared, mentally, [Aaron] Some of that pre-labor stuff [Jennifer] Yep, and my body, but also, just in our home, I feel like, we are all kind of getting to that transition point where, I don't know, we're just, we're just ready. [Aaron] So I'll say this, if you don't hear of any more podcasts coming out, after this one, it's because we had the baby. [Jennifer] But, I haven't ever gone that early, so-- [Aaron] Yeah, you-- [Jennifer] I don't know. [Aaron] We're usually like, I should say, you're usually right on the dot. [Jennifer] I will say this, usually nesting kicks in, and I you know, look forward to, just utilizing that energy, that extra energy to clean the house, and get every nook and cranny, and this time I didn't get that way at all. I had to like, really rely on the Lord, and just um-- [Aaron] Well I'll say this, I think you did have the desire to nest, but you didn't have the energy this time. [Jennifer] Yeah, I had the desire for sure. [Aaron] You're like, "I just can't get up off the couch, "I just, I don't feel like I," So, there was all these things that you wanted to do, but it took a lot of my helping, it took a lot of like, extra stuff that you didn't have-- [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] and so, but that's just unique for this time. [Jennifer] But we got some stuff checked off our to-do list this weekend and now I feel ready. So thank you Aaron, thank you for your help with that. Yeah well, I'm sure we'll have a little bit more stuff before the baby comes. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Gettin' the house ready, just gettin' some things off of our plates, so that we can enjoy little baby Edith, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] when she's here. [Jennifer] What I did do, was I got through Olive's old clothes, and got like a drawer ready for her, and all of her clothes are ready, so, [Aaron] Oh, we also moved all of, 'cause right now we have all of Truitt's clothes, in our bedroom, like right below the changing station, so that we can like change him, and put clothes there, but we moved those. Now he's got his clothes in the boys' room. [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] I'm imagining, we're probably gonna move him into the boys' room soon, right? [Jennifer] Soon, yeah. [Aaron] And then he's gonna be one of the big boys. [Jennifer] Uh? [Aaron] I know [Jennifer] Everyone's growing up too fast. [Aaron] Who in the world? [Jennifer] Elliot feels like he's seven feet tall. Doesn't he feel so big? [Aaron] Yeah, he's gonna be a tall one. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But it's awesome, seeing them grow, we were just talking tonight about if we would have had children earlier, which kinda goes into a little bit into our story, but if we would have started, day one, we'd have a 13 year old. [Jennifer] Yeah, just recognizing, how long we've been married and-- [Aaron] And we probably have 13 kids. So, [Jennifer] At our rate. [Aaron] Yeah at our our rate, yeah. Hey, I just wanted to also bring up something that I've been doing lately, and maybe you can chime in on this, Jennifer, as well, but for the men listening, something I've been trying to do, I know not everyone has our situation. We totally understand that. We get that. But Jennifer and I both, I would say I work the majority of the time, it used to be much more equal, but as we've had more kids, Jennifer's desires, and our desires has changed to, you spending a lot more time homeschooling, [Jennifer] My work just looks different [Aaron] Totally looks different, but the idea is that we're keeping things going, but what I've been doing lately, is letting you have Fridays to yourself, often that's so you can get, you know, the work that you need to get done, done. But sometimes it's just to go. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] To get into the Word. To meet with a lady [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] From the church. To just have time to yourself, or a little bit of both, like you get some work done in the morning, and then you have like a hair appointment, or you have a meeting with a friend, [Jennifer] Yeah, I try and use that time to schedule appointments-- [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] But um, I will say this, I've really enjoyed it, and it's been super beneficial in a lot of ways, but I also recognize that change is coming, with having the baby and post-partum, and all that. So it'll be something that we reevaluate, come very quickly. [Aaron] Right 'cause we go through seasons, and ebbs and flows, and we have to adjust our schedules and our way of living to the situations in life. But, I just wanna encourage the men out there, that even if you're not in a situation, where maybe your wife works with you, or works at home, or maybe, I don't know, like your situations are gonna look differently. The idea is being intentional, to let your wife know that, especially if she doesn't have like, a regular nine-to-five job if she is at home with the kids, if you have a similar situation in that aspect, is giving them time. It may not be every week, maybe it can't be every week, but if it's once a month, if it's every other week, if it's for a couple hours, there's times like, "Hey why don't you, "I got the kids you get out of here--" [Jennifer] And maybe it can't be during the day, but it's at night or, if it can't be during the week, it's you know Saturday morning or something like that. [Aaron] Yeah, there's always going to be a way to just let your wife know that you're thinking about her time, and also, as men who are leading our wives, spiritually, giving them time specifically like, maybe it's at home like, "Hey, why don't you just go lock yourself in the bedroom? "Open up the Bible like, read, journal, "go take a bath, and listen to some worship music." Giving them time to themselves, time to recharge, regenerate. I know some women probably recharge around people, not alone, but, whatever it is, maybe they need to go be with some friends. Just, keeping that in your mind, something we've been practicing, like we said, it's a it's a seasonal thing. So it's not necessarily that it's always going to be this way, but currently Fridays have been your day, and you've been enjoying them, we've been slowing down on that with the baby coming. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Also 'cause, you're having less energy, and you're like, "I just wanna be home." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But, it's been a cool thing. [Jennifer] I think it's a really good encouragement, and I think it's good for husbands to hear, that when it's even spontaneous, 'cause this was something that we kind of scheduled out, and looked at our situation, and said, "This needs to be happening." But even when it's at random, you know, spontaneous, it's a huge encouragement to the wife's heart to know that the husband is thinking of her like that. You've done that for me plenty of times over the years and so, I love that you're bringing this up. I think it's cool. [Aaron] So hope you're encouraged by that. One more thing before we get into our, our list of our favorite non-toxic products is, we just want to invite you to join the Parenting Prayer Challenge. We created this prayer challenge, it's very similar to the Marriage Prayer Challenge, where you get 30, 30 some-odd emails everyday, reminding you to pray for your children, and giving you a topic to pray for over them. and you can actually sign up for one for a son, or one for a daughter, or you can sign up for both, which is pretty awesome 'cause some of you probably have a son and a daughter, or just sons, or just daughters, or just one or the other, but you can go, you go to parentingprayerchallenge.com, all one word, and you sign up, it's completely free, and we just pray that God blesses you, and your prayer life for your children, because praying for your children is so important. Just like praying for your marriage. Just like praying for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Prayer is so important. God wants to be praying people, and so this is just a fun challenge. It's a way of being a catalyst for your prayer life, for your children. It's parentingprayerchallenge.com, it's completely free. [Jennifer] Okay, so for some of you listening you may have already read "The Unveiled Wife," if anything we talked about today, you know sparks interest and you haven't read that book yet, that was our first book that we came out with, you should go check it out, just because it shares more in depth of our journey, of kind of coming to this place of like, being aware of healthy living, and living a healthy lifestyle. But we're going to kind of summarize it. Just to kick off this episode, just so that you guys can, just get some background into Aaron and Jen. How about that? Okay. [Aaron] Let's see how quick we can make this summary. [Jennifer] Okay so I would say that when we first got married, Aaron, we didn't really, we didn't have a strong foundation of what it look like to live healthy. We grew up on fast food, and and home cook meals, but there was no, [Aaron] We didn't have an awareness of healthy living at all. [Jennifer] Yeah, and so we didn't really care about looking at ingredients on products, or you know reading the labels of things. I would say that you know I used all the all the really good smelling lotions and body washes, and if you didn't have more than three or four in your shower, it was like, "What are you doing?" You know, that type of thing. Fragrant candles, the kind of laundry detergent that you just never think about, you just use it because your parents used, or that's what so-and-so use. I remember using MAC makeup. This one, actually, I didn't really ever talk about this one, but this was one that affected me, in my teens because I was caking on the foundation, but I was using it to cover up acne, [Aaron] Which that made more acne. [Jennifer] Which made more acne. And I was actually allergic to something that was in it, and so I stopped using that, even probably around like 18. But anyways, the point that I'm getting at is that we didn't care about what was inside of these bottles that we were using to put on our skin, you know, the soap that we use, the body wash, the lip balms, the hairspray, we just consumed it. [Aaron] Not internally necessarily. [Aaron] We were consumers. We bought what we liked, we didn't have any consideration of what it was, and I actually think, back then, not very many people did. There was movements of it, but social media wasn't a huge thing back then, so not a lot of people were talking about it. Like news wasn't talking about it, like it was just, you got these products, and it wasn't until there was some sort of, big blow up or news story about something that people were aware of something, but I think with, now looking back, everyone is much more considerate about what's in products, people care about it, but back then we didn't have that experience. No one was telling us to, like, "Oh, do you know what those ingredients are?" Can you even understand what there, like, we just figured, like, "Oh, that's what they put in everything. [Jennifer] Yeah, and then, on the side of like, I'm not gonna go too much into this, but medicine, it was kind of just like, the Benadryl, Tylenol, like, whatever you could get over the counter type stuff. And I wasn't raised with a really big awareness of homeopathy, or how to, you know, use what you have at home. [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] To help through sickness or things like that. Or to even just look at what's the root of the problem here? Of whatever symptoms you have. [Aaron] Or having an understanding of what those, why those symptoms exist. How fevers work, and how, like, why are you coughing, and sneezing, and these kinds of things. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Rather than just, medicating the symptoms, which we're not totally against medication. [Jennifer] No, I'm just saying this is kind of like, where we came from. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So we get married, and I, you know, it was just like a normal thing people talked about, to go on birth control, so I did that. 'Cause I thought that was-- [Aaron] It's what you do. You get married, [Jennifer] What we were supposed to do. [Aaron] birth control, wait. [Jennifer] Yeah, wait. And I only on it for about two to three months, and it like, drastically effected my body, and so that was the first thing that I noticed should go. And so we did that. But that was also in conjunction with trying to find a solution for what we were dealing with in our marriage, which started immediately-- [Aaron] Physically, yeah. [Jennifer] And for those of you who don't know, Aaron and I, we struggled with intimacy right off the bat, like, zero, none. [Aaron] Like sex, specifically we couldn't have sex. It was very painful for you, and we've talked about this in the past, there's a few episodes where we talked about our story, and in your book you talk about it, we talk about it in our new book, "Marriage After God." We talk about it so much because it was such a influential season in our life, and how it brought us to our knees before God. Because, it drew out of us, so much other sins, and frustrations, and bitterness, this situation we were going through. Which is often when we go through things that are hard. They often will draw out those negative things in us. Which is cool, because then God gets to deal with them. But that was, yeah, we didn't know it, you would go to see doctors, and they would say, "You're young." [Jennifer] "You're fine. [Aaron] "You're fine-- [Jennifer] "You're really great." [Aaron] "there's nothing wrong, "this should be working just fine." And then we'd go home and cry, because it's not fine, it doesn't work, nothing's changing, it hurts you. [Jennifer] Yeah, it was like at least if you told me that something was wrong, I can work with that. I can't work with nothing. But moving on, so year four of our marriage, we had a conversation with some friends, we were being really transparent and honest with them about our struggles, and they kind of like, I remember them sitting across from us, just looking super confused, like, "How-- [Aaron] Dumbfounded, or like, "Are you serious?" [Jennifer] "Yeah, is this really happening?" but she goes, the girl, she goes, "The only thing I can think of to help relate your story, "to someone else's that I heard is, "a friend of mine has PCOS, and she changed out all "of her products to be more organic, "and just cleaner, and three months later, "she ended up pregnant." Which people with PCOS, it's a hard thing to do, and they weren't even trying to get pregnant. She was just trying to heal some of her other symptoms. And we quickly disregarded that because we thought, "Well, we're not trying "to get pregnant, we're just trying to start off "with the first thing, which is-- [Aaron] Yeah, how do I have sex? [Jennifer] "sexual intimacy." And we didn't think about it again for about five, six months. And then what happened, Aaron you share. [Aaron] Well, I would just, it got worse of course, 'cause we're like, "There's like no hope, "like this in never gonna change." You know, it started off with a lot of hope, like, "Oh, it'll get better, it'll get, "but it can't possibly keep going the same way." And it just did, and you know, I'm praying through this, God was working in our marriage. There was a, if you read in our book, in both of our books, actually, there's this moment that God gets ahold of my heart, and just totally convicts me of my wrong heart, towards my wife. Not just over the situation about our sex, but about a lot of things. And it brought me to my knees, I repented, and I just said, "Lord, I'm gonna obey you. "I'm gonna walk with you, "and I'm gonna love my wife, "regardless of if I ever get what I think I deserve, "or whatever she owes me, or whatever. "I'm gonna love her. "The way you've called me to." And that was the beginning of a lot of transformations, in our marriage, in our life, and our being. But how, I don't know how, it was like. [Jennifer] It was shortly after-- [Aaron] It was like that weekend, maybe, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] or the next weekend, or that week, 'cause it was at church that this you know revelation that God gave to me happened. And I'm in the shower, and I'm just praying, 'cause I'm still like, "God, there's gotta be something, "that's gonna fix this." 'Cause even though, I've totally committed my heart to say "I'm gonna love my wife," [Jennifer] You still wanted change-- [Aaron] I still want a change, right? But my heart was totally in a different place now. And I'm just praying, and I'm like. "Lord, what is it? "It's been since before we were married, "like this is, since we've been married, I mean, "and there's gotta be something." And I looked down in the shower actually, and there's a face wash in there, and I just immediately remembered this story about the PCOS, and the girl that got rid of her stuff, and I just asked myself, I was like, "Is it possible that there's something reacting "with my wife's body?" And then I started thinking like, "What has there been, that you've used, "ever since the beginning, of our marriage?" [Jennifer] 'Cause shampoo and conditioner changed out, body wash changed out, a lot things changed, in those four years, but my face wash was the one main thing that I always was consistent with. [Aaron] And so, I said, I just yelled from the shower, I remember like, "What have you been using "since before we were married?" And you were like, "My f-why?" You were like, confused. Anyways, I take the face wash out of the shower, and I hop onto our computer, and I just start researching every ingredient on the thing. And there was like, first of all, like, half the ingredients were, I went on this site, and it talks about the toxicity level, of ingredients, right? You type the ingredient in, and it just tells you what the level is. [Jennifer] Had you ever done anything like that before? [Aaron] Never, never done like that before. Didn't even know it existed, I had to Google, and I'm searching like, how do you figure out, I'm typing these, and then this site shows up. And like half the ingredients in this thing, were-- [Jennifer] It was EWG. [Aaron] Toxic. [Jennifer] EWG.com. [Aaron] EWG.com, I don't even know, is it still a thing? [Jennifer] I think so. [Aaron] Okay. So half the products were toxic at some level. And then there was several of the ingredients that had specific terms that it said it was, that the affect. Specifically the endocrine system in your body. Then I looked up, I was like, "What's the endocrine system? "I'll just start looking it up." I'm getting all technical, and we're not scientists, we're not biologists, we don't know, like, I'm not gonna try and diagnose people, but all I know is the Lord lead me to something. [Jennifer] We were putting pieces together. [Aaron] I started researching, and regardless if it has any effect, the fact that it had all these toxic chemicals, and I'm like, "Maybe she should, regardless, "she probably shouldn't be putting this on her body." and the endocrine system something that's, it's super important to the whole reproductive system. To the normal function of the woman's body. Like secretion of normal hormones, and I was like, "Dang, that sounds like a lot "of like the things that we deal with." And so it-- [Jennifer] The specific thing that you're talking about is parabens. [Aaron] Parabens, yeah. [Jennifer] So there's four, different types of parabens, in this specific face wash. [Aaron] Methyl, propyl, like all these different kinds. [Jennifer] And this was before parabens was a thing, [Aaron] Yeah, like no bottle said paraben-free, back then. [Jennifer] Nobody was talking about it yet, but it soon became a thing, shortly after that. [Aaron] A few years later. [Jennifer] I mean, I remember a few years later, you'd go into like, Ulta, or Sephora, and you'd start seeing, you know, makeup lines that say, paraben free this, paraben free that. [Aaron] Which is interesting because back then, no one cared. I should say no on knew. And then we're like researching this and finding this out, and I don't wanna say, like started move, we actually didn't start anything. Other people are already trying to get this moving, but because of social media things like that, that it exist. Things were a lot slower. I think things are way faster now. But I was just like, "Hey. "I want to be with you, physically." And in this is a big deal because Jennifer has been using this forever, she believed that without it, she was gonna have acne. And be, and feel ugly, or whatever it was, and I remember I was like, "Hey, would you get this up?" [Jennifer] I said no. [Aaron] And she was like "No!" And I'm like, "I'd rather you have acne and us be able "to be together, than you have clean skin, clear skin." [Jennifer] And then I was like, "Well maybe there's something, okay. "I'll just do it 'cause you asked me." [Aaron] So you did, you chose to put it away. And now, I'm sure everyone's thinking like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go use this to get my wife, "or get someone to stop doing something." But, I, my heart was not just to get her to stop using this. I actually had never thought about it until this moment, and I was just like, "Would you be willing to experiment with me?" Like, "Let's just delete this from your life." [Jennifer] Yeah, it was an experiment. And here's the thing you guys, three days later, three days later, I was at work and I remember just feeling different, and I called Aaron and I was like, "I don't get too excited but, I feel different, "and I wanted you to know that my body feels, "it feels like things are changing." And I feel like it was just like two more days after that that we had sex for what feels like the first time. [Aaron] Yeah, in four and a half years. [Jennifer] Like pain free. [Aaron] Pain free. Not just pain free, but like it was enjoyable. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Like it was, like we were like, "Whoa. "Like that's what it's supposed to be like. [Jennifer] There was nothing else that was gonna convince me, that what we stumbled upon, was the thing. [Aaron] Right, and I would also say, we, God lead us a new place, in our hearts toward him. We had been repentant, of things that were going on, and I think that the Lord revealed thing to us, so I would say I definitely think that there is certain things are engaging, or interacting with your body. I mean we know over the years that you're sensitive to certain things, I'm sensitive to certain things. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But I also think that the Lord, was like working in us. So I'm not trying to over-spiritualize it but, I don't wanna take away from what God was doing. [Jennifer] Sure. [Aaron] And he revealed this to us-- [Jennifer] Well and I think, he's the one that revealed this to us, and it was really awesome, and so the next step was, "I'm getting rid of all parabens." Like parabens became this like, [Aaron] We literally threw [Both] Everything, [Jennifer] And I am telling you guys, [Aaron] All of our shampoos, all of her makeup. [Jennifer] It was it! [Aaron] My makeup too. I'm just kiddin'. [Jennifer] It was in everything. It was in so much stuff. People will message me on Instagram, and they're like, "So you know, "You talked about parabens in the "Unveiled Wife," "and what kind of stuff did you have to look at?" It was like, [Aaron] Everything. [Jennifer] I tell 'em, "everything." And so what's funny is that, I look at our shower now from what it used to be, and it's like you had mentioned earlier, [Aaron] There's two things in there. [Jennifer] Yeah, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to do this episode. 'cause we just thought it'd be fun to share with you guys, some of the things that we use now, but this indecent, this thing that happened over something as small as face wash, is what stimulated our hearts to say, "Hey, what were putting in our bodies. "What we're putting on our bodies, "is important because it has an effect on us." [Aaron] And I mean it's definitely not our main focus, I mean everyone that listens to our podcast would know that this is not, we're not like a health and fitness-- [Jennifer] Freaks, [Aaron] Podcast. No, we just know, that there's a holistic view that God has of us. He wants us to love him with our minds, our souls, our bodies. Like so, when we look at the world it's not just, "Oh, we can be unwise over here, "as long as we're wise over here." we look at idea of, what we, we gotta be wise in every aspect. And we seek God on that. So what's wrong with just, caring about what goes on our body and in our body? Not out of a, like, not putting something on my body and not putting something in my body is not making me more holy. It's making me more healthy. [Jennifer] It's taking care of yourself. [Aaron] it's taking care of the body that God's given me. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I will say this, back then, it felt a little bit harder to know what to switch to, because-- [Aaron] Well, there was also less things, I think. [Jennifer] Less cleaner things available and so I just wanted to make that clear, that, you know, anyone who wanted to make a switch today, like if they want to go to their products or-- [Aaron] There's a million products now. [Jennifer] be more healthy in this way, there are so many good products out there and so, it's a lot easier, I would say. But another thing that triggered our healthy lifestyle, was doing the Sugar Busters diet, which we-- [Aaron] This was long time ago. [Jennifer] that was just a couple months, after all of this, and we made the commitment to do it together. We even took a class on it do you remember that? [Aaron] I do. [Jennifer] And they taught us how to read labels-- [Aaron] It was at the church. [Jennifer] Yeah, it was at our church. [Aaron] The church put this like health class on. It was cool. [Jennifer] Yeah so, it taught us how the read labels, and so I remember going grocery shopping with you, and we're looking at the back of like pasta sauce-- [Aaron] Well, everything we bought, had added sugar in it. Every single thing. [Jennifer] But we were like, amazed, we were like, "And this has it too!" [Aaron] I was like, "Bread doesn't have sugar in it." and every loaf of bread, was like, the second ingredient was sugar. And we're like, "Okay, what's going on here?" So anyways, [Jennifer] And then you had to go with a list of what are sugars called? because there's a lot of-- [Aaron] All the different names of sugar, yeah [Jennifer] Different names, for it. But that was another one, when we talk about eating, like that was what stimulated our healthy movement towards eating healthier and just buying things so that we're aware of what we're putting inside of our bodies. It doesn't mean we don't consume sugar, and we don't, you know, we'll have Chick-fil-A, we'll go out and-- [Aaron] No, but that education, the learning about how to read labels. What are ingredients, you know, how they order the ingredients, that's important, I can give a little tip on that. Even though we don't still do Sugar Busters, that month or how many? It was a couple months maybe. [Jennifer] It grew a muscle in us, We now, that's how we shop. When we go grocery shopping, of course there's gonna be stuff that we grab that has added sugars to it, but for the most part, we look at the ingredients in almost everything we buy. Everything, now especially with you, you need to be gluten-free. We look at, we actually buy less things that have wheat in it period, because of that, but it was a good tool in our tool belt, as we talk about in "Marriage After God," to just help us be healthier, help our kids be healthier. They enjoy things, here and there, we just had icecream tonight, so we're not like, sans sugar in our life, we're sans sugar all the time. [Jennifer] I was gonna say, we try and make the best opportunity, or we take every opportunity, when we can, to be healthy, eat healthy, and you know, choose the right thing, but it doesn't mean that we don't get, [Aaron] We also enjoy things. [Jennifer] Yeah, we also enjoy things, so, [Aaron] In moderation. [Jennifer] in moderation. That's good. [Aaron] So, Oh I wanna give that quick tip real quick, 'cause people are probably thinking like, "Well, what about the ingredients?" Just a quick tip on ingredients, the order of ingredients on the box, so like starting from the first, to the second, to the third, the higher up an ingredient is on the box, the more of that ingredient is in the product. So if sugar is in the top three ingredients, that means there's a lot of sugar in that item. So if wheat's the first or water, that's how they order the ingredients, based off of amount of ingredients. [Jennifer] So here's another one, it's really random, but I've been seeing a naturopath for my thyroid issues through this last year, and one of the things she asked me is if we use Weed and Feed. And I didn't even know, 'cause you usually do-- [Aaron] For the lawns? Yeah. [Jennifer] the lawns, yeah. And that was just one instance where she was like, "Well, instead of using that, "why don't you just pick the weeds?" like-- [Aaron] Or leave the weeds. [Jennifer] or leave the weeds. So there's a lots of things in our life that we can look at and evaluate, and say, "Oh, we should probably make change." It doesn't have to happen all at once, but it is something that we should be aware of, to go, "Hey what's happening to this exposure "that we're doing to our bodies. "And how can we maintain a healthy body?' [Aaron] And the Weed and Feed was important because was saying, "You guys walk on "that grass all the time." And like, it goes into your skin, and you're going to be affected by it. Because you're you're working with your thyroid and all of these things, effect that. Which is interesting because, we knew back then that you were probably sensitive to some stuff, and now we know now, you are definitely sensitive to things. Your body's gonna react, maybe differently than someone who, has normal functioning thyroid, or endocrine system or all that. [Jennifer] Right. Okay so, we we're just going to get into kind of a list of our non-toxic products because-- [Aaron] These are literally things that we use, pretty much on a regular basis. [Jennifer] Two reasons, one we just thought it would be fun to share these things, and if you guys you know want to know more, you can reach out to us on Instagram @marriage-- [Aaron] Reach out to Jennifer about the [Jennifer] I was going to say @marriageaftergod. [Aaron] Ah there ya go. [Jennifer] or @unveiledwife We also know that everyone's always looking for, you know, new things or ideas or inspiration so, we just hope that by sharing these, it's an encouragement to you, and give you some information. [Aaron] And I'll also let you guys know that we're not like necessarily sponsored by any of these people. We're just we're literally going to share with you guys the things that we love-- [Jennifer] Now I will say, [Aaron] and use. [Jennifer] that some of these things that I put on the list, and we've been using Young Living Essential Oils for [Aaron] Several years now. [Jennifer] about four or five years now. And we did just recently, just be more open to sharing the business side of things on social media. You may have seen that, maybe not. And so I know you said that we're not sponsored by this, but we,-- [Aaron] But we use it. [Jennifer] but we do use Young Living, and we do believe in what they have to offer, and and have really fallen in love with their products. So, I just wanted to put that out there, just so that people know and we're clear about that. [Aaron] We're not trying to be tricky or anything, we just, these are literally products we love and no one's asked us to share about them. Except for us, wanting to share about them. [Jennifer] Okay so when it comes to cleaning I really love the Thieves Spray, which in the beginning I was using wrong, because I didn't know it could be diluted. I literally would just put the spray cap-- [Aaron] And everything was just like slimy and had like, film all over the [Jennifer] Uh yeah, like a residue. [Aaron] We had residue everywhere. [Jennifer] On the countertops. [Aaron] Oh man, there was no germs I bet. [Jennifer] Ah, probably not. So the Thieves container comes, and then you dilute it, and it lasts a long time. But it smells really good, and I can use it for-- [Aaron] Everything. [Jennifer] I feel like every, one product, I feel like I can use for so much. [Aaron] And what's awesome is like, if you sprayed it on food by accident, I'm not saying you should eat it, but it's not going to be like spraying Lysol on something. Like you spray the table, you spray the the highchair, you spray, you're not worried about this, you know hurting your children. Which is awesome. It's an added benefit to this kind of cleaning product. [Jennifer] Another awesome cleaning product, is by a company called Norwex, it's really awesome you guys, they do these microfiber cloths, but they're like-- [Aaron] Aren't they infused with like silver? [Jennifer] Yeah, they're infused with silver, and they just, I don't know what about it is, but like, when you go to clean the stove, you barely have to even scrape, it's just like, [Aaron] Reusable [Jennifer] It like makes you want to clean. The window rag, you just you put water on it, and just wipe your window down, and they look crystal clear. I bought these mitts for the kids that have, they're just really easy slip-on gloves, but they're good for dusting, [Aaron] So that they can help clean? [Jennifer] So that they can help clean. Oh and our mop, I use the Norwex mop, and it's just really nice. It's good, I like it. I like their stuff. [Aaron] I wouldn't say those are necessarily, healthy products, they're just good products that we love using. [Jennifer] Oh yeah. [Aaron] On that specific one, [Jennifer] On the Norwex side of things. [Aaron] I did wanna go back, and just real quick, the Thieves Spray, we just talked about, I wanted to say it like it what it replaces. Because I think, as we go, we should just remind them, also, what it replaces like, it replaces Lysol spray, it replaces window spray, it replaces like toilet cleaner, it replaces all these things that you'd use to clean your countertops, or your floors, or your tables, or your, it does all of those things. [Jennifer] So for all you minimalists out there, [Aaron] You get one thing, and it does all. [Jennifer] It'll make your cleaning closet, or cupboard very pretty looking. [Aaron] It also smells really nice. [Jennifer] It does, that's true. For laundry, again that they sell Thieves Laundry Detergent and we've really liked that. And I just noticed that, there's a drastic difference when washing towels and washcloths. They're just so much cleaner. [Aaron] And they smell fresher, and they feel nicer. I've been really liking that, as well. This is this one's kind of like for me. So Jennifer, actually, doesn't use the the Thieves Laundry Soap for me, because I'm really sensitive, my skin, if we, if there's any laundry detergent that has any sort of dyes or perfumes or anything, I get like a rash, on my whole body. [Jennifer] If I even think about changing it, he breaks out-- [Aaron] Now, it happens, we've gone, we've stayed at hotels in the past, and I wake up in the morning and I'm just like red, and I go down and I'm like, "What are you guys washing your stuff with?" And they're like "We don't know, why?" And I'm like "I like I need something else." It's like horrible 'cause I'm like sleeping on these blankets and pillows, and so the only thing that we found work, we've actually tried venturing out, into other things, is the Arm & Hammer Sensitive Skin laundry detergent. [Jennifer] But it's fragrance-free, it's clear, [Aaron] Dye free. I'm sure it's got a couple of bad things in it, but literally, it's the only one that I've been able to use and not like break out in a rash on my body. But that comes in a huge bottle and we use it for me so. [Jennifer] Okay so earlier, we mentioned the shower, and just how the bathroom is much [Aaron] less cluttered, [Jennifer] Yeah, less cluttered. So we use dr. Bronner's for just about everything when it comes to washing our bodies. [Aaron] Body wash, shampoo, [Jennifer] I use it in the kids hair, I throw it in their bath and they have different scents, and they come in big bottles [Aaron] I like the rose scented one. [Jennifer] I will say this, the first couple times that we used it, do you remember how it felt like, really different, almost oily, but then once you got out of the shower it was like, [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause it doesn't suds the same way, as like a regular shampoo and also, you have to dilute it. And so you if you use too much, it's like everywhere but it comes off really easy. Doesn't leave any residue, but it's, we love it we use it for everything. Apparently you can use dr. Bronner's for like, laundry soap, [Jennifer] Yep. and dish washing soap [Jennifer] You can use it for a lot of stuff. [Aaron] We use it mainly in the shower, but yeah, you can [Jennifer] I use it for my face wash now, face and body wash, [Aaron] You can use it for everything. We wanna make a note that, the company that that owns dr. Bronner's, they write a bunch of weird stuff on the packaging so we're not necessarily endorsing what is written on the packaging, but we love the product. [Jennifer] When it comes to my like, lotions and things like that, Cetaphil is pretty bland, there's not very much stuff in it. I've used that for years now. I love the orange blossom and ART brand from Young Living when it comes to face moisturizer. The Genesis lotion is also really great, especially because, well, it smells clean and fresh, but it's not super fragrant. That one's good, just an overall lotion, I use that one for the kids. But also, Aaron, [Aaron] Yeah, there's a lotion that I, I hate lotions, like I don't like putting anything in my hands, even though, like right now, my hands are so dry because it's so dry out. But I hate feeling like greasy and the lotion I love the most is from Bend Soap Company, they're actually right here in our hometown. And they make this goat milk lotion, they make goat milk soap, they make a lot of really awesome things. So if you have really sensitive skin, like eczema, things like that, their soaps are amazing for it. That's actually why they started the company, 'cause one of their sons had issues with skin like that. [Jennifer] What I like is their milk bath, it comes in these like shavings, [Aaron] Oh yeah. [Jennifer] And it's just, you toss it in the bath with the kids, and it's just so fun. [Aaron] So just go check out Bend Soap Company, I can't remember the domain, but just Google Bend Soap Company. And their lotion, does not feel greasy. Once it's rubbed in, it's like, it smells nice, it feels great. [Jennifer] You don't have to go wash your hands [Aaron] It feels soft, yeah I don't have to wash my hands afterwards. [Jennifer] For toothpaste we do use Young Living. The Thieves whitening, specifically, is really good for us. And then we use it the kid's ones for the kids. But for the deodorant, this was a big one for me, because I feel like every time I try to use like, a natural deodorant, it just felt weird [Aaron] They don't work. [Jennifer] and didn't work [Jennifer] Yeah, but there's a new company out I'd say a fairly new. They're gaining ground, they're like in Target now, [Aaron] Yeah, they actually have some body washes now, I saw. [Jennifer] Oh really? [Aaron] Yeah, I almost bought a bottle of it. [Jennifer] Oh you should, I'll have to try it. [Aaron] But I like my Bronner's [Jennifer] I know. It's called Native. And they have great scents, it goes on smooth, almost silky like, and it works. Someone asked me, "Do you think it'll work during postpartum?" And I'm like, "That I haven't tried yet, "so we'll know this time around." But I've really really enjoyed Native. [Aaron] Yeah, it doesn't have the heavy metals, or nothin' in it, [Jennifer] Paraben-free [Aaron] So it won't necessarily protect you from perspiring, I should say. It's not an antiperspirant, it's a deodorant. So it protects from the smell, but-- [Jennifer] I don't, really notice-- [Aaron] Yeah, well, it's winter right now, so I don't know, sometimes. [Jennifer] I've been using it for a while though. [Aaron] But I like it a lot. It smells great, it feels good, and deodorant is another one that's really been a, hard one for me because, like, pretty much any deodorant I use, I used to use the Arm & Hammer deodorant, but that has some metals in it, and so I've since switched to Native, but Arm & Hammer and Native are the only ones that don't give me rashes on my arms. And they're painful, you've see them. [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] Like, I they hurt. And I've loved their deodorants. [Jennifer] Another good product for chapstick, is Burt's Bees. [Aaron] Yeah that's good. Especially their vanilla brand, [Aaron] I think a lot of people are like, "yeah, I like that." Burt's Bees, they've been pretty synonymous for chapsticks. [Jennifer] That or coconut oil. Which coconut oil, you guys, you could used for literally everything. [Aaron] Yeah, we should do an episode on that. [Jennifer] Dry skin, lips-- [Aaron] intimacy, oh we're gonna talk about it. [Jennifer] Lubricancy, or, lubricancy? [Aaron] Lubricancy [Jennifer] Whatever that is. [Aaron] It's like, new word. [Jennifer] Okay before we get there, supplements, some things that I've been taking his last year, Nordic Naturals-- [Aaron] You've been, just real quick, you've been getting a lot, into the supplements, just because of your-- [Jennifer] Thyroid. [Aaron] your thyroid. So you've been learning a lot about these. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Because we're, we're trying to avoid going with other stronger, methods, we're trying to do the natural way, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] and you've been, pretty consistent with this. [Jennifer] Yeah, and just as a testament, after being on the supplements, I have actually, my numbers have gone down, and in my symptoms have pretty much dissipated, but I've also been pregnant the last nine months. [Aaron] Which does change things, yep. [Jennifer] So it does change things. But Nordic Naturals has a really great, strawberry flavored, omega-3. Which I love. And I've been taking-- [Aaron] So it doesn't just taste like fish? It tastes like strawberries? That's good. [Jennifer] Yeah. We've taking D3 a lot. Young Living has a great line of supplements that we use, like the vitamin C, the vitamin B, Multigreens, [Aaron] Yeah, I've been loving their Master Formula. It's like a pack of like five little supplements, and vitamin B, C, D3, all these different ones. I've been taking that, pretty much regularly, every day, I really enjoy that one. [Jennifer] Cool. Okay so for pregnancy and post-partum care, my friend recommended ancient magnesium lotion for restless legs, and it works. [Aaron] Do you get restless legs when you're pregnant? [Jennifer] Yeah, mostly towards the end, [Aaron] I'm being facetious, because I know. [Jennifer] I know, Aaron does the massaging, with the lotion, [Aaron] Yeah [Jennifer] Thank you, Aaron. [Aaron] You've had pretty bad restless legs this time. [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] And the magnesium lotion-- [Jennifer] It's been good. [Aaron] And lavender, on your feet. [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] Has been, really helping you. [Jennifer] Yep, that's true. [Aaron] 'Cause I can tell, 'cause then you fall asleep. [Jennifer] Yeah. I've love it. And then the other thing that helps, has helped me during this pregnancy is the Young Living Deep Relief roller and I don't necessarily put it on, but like I smell it, like especially when I'm nauseous, or anything like that. [Aaron] I personally don't like this one because of how cold it feels. It's like all this-- [Jennifer] When you put it on, yeah. [Aaron] Like the peppermint in it, I just can't. [Jennifer] The cooling effect. [Aaron] But it does work, but it's too cold for me. So you brought up makeup in the beginning, I remember you used to go to the MAC store and you were like, "We have to go to the mall, I need some MAC." And I was like, "Are you serious? "You look beautiful." I've never liked you wearing makeup. You remember this? I was like, "You don't need to wear makeup." But you've used since not used makeup, the MAC makeup and for a long time, you didn't use almost anything, because we couldn't find anything. What do you use now? I'm sure some of the women are like, "What kind of makeup do you use?" [Jennifer] Yeah, so I would say, like my everyday would be, a primer from Urban Decay, which just kind of holds the eyeshadow on, and the eye shadow is also from Urban Decay. And I just like it, they're neutral colors, easy to put on really quick, and the times that I do use foundation, it's a powder foundation from Young Living, it's called Savvy Minerals, it's like a mineral makeup. And it goes on super light and so, [Aaron] But that's rare. [Jennifer] Yeah, it's like on Sundays. [Aaron] I would say you used to use a lot more makeup, and now it's like, you do a little eyeliner, [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] You do a little mascara, [Jennifer] I don't use eyeliner actually. [Aaron] You don't use eyeliner? [Jennifer] No but my mascara, Smashbox has been a really good favorite, paraben-free, and Clinique. [Aaron] Clinique, [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] So no eyeliner, but mascara, okay, and then you use some lipstick sometimes. [Jennifer] Every once in a while. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] The Burt's Bees tinted is really nice. [Aaron] 'cause it's kinda like lipstick, and it's moisturizing [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, so I'm just making a note that you wear way less makeup than you use to [Jennifer] Oh yeah. [Aaron] And I think you're beautiful. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Aaron] Yeah, well, I'm not lying. I've never been a fan of a lot of makeup, and because of this, you've since found contentment in just a very little. [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] Which I think is really awesome. [Jennifer] Okay so when it comes to intimacy, you guys we ditched pretty much, well, we did all lubricants because of-- [Aaron] And we've tried a lot of lubricants 'cause, [Jennifer] We've tried a lot [Aaron] 'cause, things didn't work. [Jennifer] But there were so many of 'em that had parabens in it. [Aaron] All of them. [Jennifer] Every single one, [Jennifer] We didn't even know, [Aaron] Had parabens, yeah. [Jennifer] And then other things on top of that that were just not good for you, so, we stuck to coconut oil for a really long time. [Aaron] So, tip, coconut oil's amazing, for that, specifically, and it's so good for you too. And it feels good. That was a little side note, for the adults in the room. So, I guess what we wanna get at, and I'm sure there's like a ton more things that we-- [Jennifer] I know, [Aaron] we use that are healthy, and we could probably, make a whole other list, but we essentially, wanted to show you that we've simplified, we found the handful of products that we love, and that we know what's in them, and we just, what's really awesome about this is, we it makes shopping easier, it's actually cheaper 'cause we're not buying a bunch of stuff and always experimenting, we're not always saying like "Well, let's try this new thing." We just say "Nope, we love this product. "Let's just go with it, we know it works." And so it makes, we don't think as much about those things. We know that we're minimizing the amount of chemicals we're putting on us, on our kids. And so we can have some peace of mind, and just one less thing that we have to think about, in our home. And we can put more intention into the spiritual growth of our family, into our careers, into our children, into each other, and we're not like worried about these other things. [Jennifer] Yeah, or when you say, "don't put as much "thought into them," I would say initially we do, because we do look at ingredients. We look and we do our research and figure out what we want to use, and we're in agreement when we choose things, but then, once we know what it is, it's kinda like that going back to that spaghetti sauce, once we found the one that didn't have sugar in it, we just stick to that one. [Aaron] And it's great. We love it. [Jennifer] And it makes it easy. It makes it so easy when you know what you are good with. [Aaron] Well, and grocery shopping's hard. I don't know if everyone who's listening is like, "Yeah grocery shopping's hard." Like, for us it's hard, like, so once you, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every single time, we've kinda, we slowly over time with built, our list of things that we like, "Oh, these are the things-- [Jennifer] Stick to the basics [Aaron] "that we can, "we're just gonna go to those things." And some of them are a little but more expensive. But what's awesome is we don't get as much of everything, like we get those handful of things and I was just at the grocery store the other day, and I was just thinking how awesome it is, that we have these habits on the things that we get. There's just the staples in our home, there's things that we get often. We've already looked at the ingredients. We know we enjoy them. We know that we like them. And it just makes these normal, everyday things so much more enjoyable and easy. They're less stressful like, all around like, this this this way of thinking, is just good for our everyday life. To simplify, to know the things that we like, and we create the good habit. And then that habit is there. So we don't have to reinvent the wheel, every single time we walk to the grocery store. Or every time we are shopping for something for our home, and for our kids. [Jennifer] And we also gotta know when we do choose that organic, clean, non-toxic, or non-GMO, whatever the thing is, we can't be up so obsessive about it that when we go out, or someone offers us, or brings us-- [Aaron] Right. That's a good point. [Jennifer] food during, postpartum, or whatever it is, that we're not nitpicky in a way that promotes-- [Aaron] Is this from that specific brand? [Jennifer] Yeah, let's not be like that. [Aaron] Yeah, we're not, yeah. [Jennifer] And I guess what I'm trying to say is we can't make it in idol. I think it's important to be healthy, and do the best that we can, but there's going to be times that we can't, and that's okay. We can't make living out this way, become an idol in our lives, and especially not become a strife point between husband and wife. I think this is something that you guys, [Aaron] Or friends, [Jennifer] can learn about together. Engage in together, and agree on together. [Aaron] That's a really good point, you know it's good to, in general, be making healthier habits in our life, but the point is not just to be healthier, it's too have a good habits. It's to walk rightly and have wisdom. And so is that thing, if those things, are getting in the way of your relationships with other people, they need to be put on the shelf. Not forever, but like you need to check yourself, and say "Am I letting this thing get in the way of them?" [Jennifer] Yeah, or if you really, truly have a heart to encourage your friends, or family members, or whoever to also, live a healthy lifestyle, be patient with them, because it might take someone else more time, than maybe it took you, or I don't know, I just feel like we need to have compassion for people's learning experience, [Aaron] Yeah, well and also don't let this, one last little warning, don't let this be the message you preach. It's good to encourage people and say "Hey like, you know, why don't you try this? "Why don't you try some more healthy things? "Here's an idea." It's one thing to share, healthy lifestyle, and to encourage someone, but if that if that replaces the message we should be preaching, the message of Christ, if like we have this opportunity and we're instead, we're encouraging someone to be healthier, and then what were thinking is, holiness comes from that. Rather than encouraging someone in Christ, and making the healthy lifestyle thing, that's an ancillary thing in our life that were like, "Oh and I like to live healthy, "and here's some ideas if you're interested." So the main messages is our life represents Christ and we preach him. 'Cause, we could do that sometimes. I got excited about crossfit, and every conversation I had was about crossfit, and I have to check myself and be like, "Hey, is this getting in the way "of the message I should be preaching right now? [Jennifer] That's really good Aaron, and I just, you know, just even thinking about this episode, it's little bit fun and quirky, and you know, not very Christ driven, but yet, I think the encouragement here is that we're aware of what we're putting in and on our bodies because, the scripture to tell us about, our bodies being the Holy Temple. [Aaron] Right, and we're, it's just being wise. Let's be wise with our bodies, and we can't control everything, and we shouldn't try and control everything. But what we can control, with moderation, with wisdom, and with sober mindedness, you know, thinking rightly, I think there's wisdom in that. And walking good, and not just putting junk in our bodies, and on our bodies. [Jennifer] And it has felt really good, I think you would agree with me, in having the conversations from time to time, about our lifestyle choices, about the things that we're doing, the things that were buying, and it's something that we evaluate often. You know, even when we go to the grocery store and so, I would hope that this episode, encourages couples to do that. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So I also wanna let you guys know that if you, especially the wife, if you're interested in following me on Instagram, @unveiledwife, there's a highlight tab called toxic, free, healthy living, and you can get more information there. And also if you're curious about more things, if you want to hear more about, you know, the things that we use just message me. [Aaron] So before we close in prayer, I thought it'd be cool if we let everyone know some of the resources and people that we follow that kinda promote, some healthy living, so what are you share some of those? [Jennifer] So Dashing Dish, she's a good friend of ours and she is-- [Aaron] She's awesome. [Jennifer] really good at just like, meal planning, healthy fitness, [Aaron] Believer, loves the Lord. [Jennifer] everything you can think of, if you want some inspiration she's a great resource. Dr. Mark Hyman H-Y-M-A-N, is a really great resource, he just talks about the holistic living, like that Aaron mentioned. Carrie Vitt, I think it's a Vitt, or Veet. It's C-A-R-R-I-E V-I-T-T and on Instagram, that's where I follow her, and she talks a lot about thyroid health. So I mention that earlier-- [Aaron] Yeah, which is important to you. [Jennifer] Yeah, if you guys are interested in more inspiration for thyroid health, she's a great one to listen to, or watch, or follow. Follow, yeah. [Jennifer] I don't know what it's called. Another one is just.ingredients. She is going to really fun resource, a newer resource that-- [Aaron] Someone shared this with you, yeah. [Jennifer] someone shared with me, and she does like, Costco overhauls, she'll compare products and it's just been really great. [Aaron] A note on her, isn't she the one, that she'll say "If you can't do this, "at least do this?" [Jennifer] Yeah, I think so. [Aaron] And so she shows you like, if you can't afford this, the best product, here's one that's a little bit better than that other product. [Jennifer] I know she shows pictures too, of like, comparing products and things like that. So that's just.ingredients. And then another one I've been falling recently, is Purely Parsons. She's a fun one, just a mom, also nurse, who shares a lot of things, and her highlight reel, I mean, so much about birth, postpartum care, flu season, just home remedies, farming, like, anything that you can think of that you want to know more about, she's just a fun person to follow. And I really appreciated, how much time she takes in explaining things, and sharing resources. And then we had mentioned Sugar Busters, but if you want to know more about the toxi, I can't say that word, [Aaron] Toxicity. of sugar, Dr. Robert Lustig L-U-S-T-I-G [Aaron] Oh yeah, he's the guy [Jennifer] he's the guy. And especially on YouTube. Just research him and check out some of his-- [Aaron] He talks about what sugar does in our bodies. and this is not to be an anti sugar talk, we just when we're aware of how things interact with our body, how God created our bodies, it's pretty interesting 'cause it's not normal things to learn, so just wanna encourage you to check that out. So hey, we just want to thank everyone for being here today. As usual, we like to close in prayer. And so just Jennifer, why don't you pray for us? [Jennifer] Okay. Dear Lord, thank you for our bodies. We pray would be good stewards of our bodies and consider all that goes on them, and in them. We pray we would be willing to take the time and research the items we use on a daily basis. Using things that help us and not hurt us. Lord, we ask that you would give us wisdom as we navigate living a healthy lifestyle. Help us to make good choices, and be on the same page in marriage, so that we can enjoy the benefits of living toxic-free. Please help us to not be overwhelmed by the process of learning, but rather, help us to be humble and willing to learn so that we can choose what is healthy for us, and be advocates of healthy living for the sake of others. We pray living healthy would not become an idol in our lives and would not hinder any of our relationships. May we be people who don't just consume, but people who care about our bodies, and take care of them. In Jesus' name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. We love you all, We thank you for joining us on this episode. We hope it was enjoyable and educational. Go follow @unveiledwife and check out some of her, some more of her things. She posts about them often. And again, we love you, and we look forward to having you next week, possibly as long as we don't have the baby before then, we'll get some episodes up. See you next week. Did you enjoy Today Show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.   

In this episode, we answer questions for our community about having children, birth control, how many kids to have and more.Please also take a moment and download our free 52 Date Night Ideas eBook.http://datenightideas.com PRAYERDear Lord,Thank you for the gift and blessing of children. Thank you for creating and designing us with the ability to recreate, what an incredible miracle life truly is. We thank you for the opportunity to build our family and have children. We pray for others who either have not had children yet or in awaiting their first in anticipation. May you lead them in the way you desire them to walk and to grow together. We praise you for all those who have children and we also pray for those who can’t have children for whatever the reason may be. You are sovereign and we trust you. We continue to surrender our hearts to you as you lead us in parenting and raising our children to know you. Please help us with our fears and insecurities. Please remind us every day of the purpose we have with our family. May your name be glorified.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ FULL TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're gonna answer some of your questions about having children. - [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry onlinae for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - [Aaron] Love. - [Jennifer] And Power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chased boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Hey, everyone welcome back to another episode of Marriage After God. We're happy to be with you and we're really excited about this episode, and just being able to answer your questions. So doing Q&As is gonna be just an awesome new feature of the podcast where every couple of weeks, we're gonna poll our trusty community on Instagram and ask you guys what questions you have, and hopefully get some answers, well I should say opinions. - [Aaron] Yeah 'cause we have all the answers. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] On everything. - [Jennifer] We don't but you know what, we're happy to explore these questions with you. And so thank you to everyone who shared these questions with us, and specifically about about having kids which we have a little bit of experience with. And so we'll dive into that in just a bit. All right, so one thing that we really are excited to share with you guys is that we have a new freebie for all of you. - [Aaron] So everyone has already did the free prayer challenge. - [Jennifer] Right. - [Aaron] They already got the date night conversations. - [Jennifer] You better, we've been sharing about those two for a while. So I begged Aaron, and I was like, "Let's do something new. "We've gotta do something new." - [Aaron] So this one is date night ideas. It's a free download. It's a list of 52 date night ideas which you could do one a week for the whole year. - [Jennifer] So is this something we're committing to? We're gonna go through all of these and do them? - [Aaron] Sure. - [Jennifer] Let's do it. - [Aaron] Let's see how it goes. - [Jennifer] I think that would be so fun. - [Aaron] So if you wanna get this freebie, this download, you just go to datenightideas.com and you can download our free ebook with 52 date night ideas. - [Jennifer] And the goal is one a week but if you can't do one week, do three a week. It's fine-- - [Aaron] If you have to do one a day, you know what, you can get done faster-- - [Jennifer] Have fun with it. - [Aaron] And just do it all over again. - [Jennifer] Have fun with it. No, but you can use these whenever you want and you can even sift through them and pull from it. - [Aaron] You know what would be fun is if they downloaded this and then found another couple to do a challenge with. How many they can get done in a year? - [Jennifer] Interesting, the other thing you could do is print them out and cut them out and stick them in a jar and pull them out randomly. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] That would be fun. - [Aaron] That's a great idea. Datenightideas.com, one word and it's free. Go get it, so the topic we're talking about, these Q&As, they're all on a similar topic. We polled our followers on Instagram and many of the questions were around children. Having children, children after marriage. - [Jennifer] So we're like let's stick them all in one episode so we can hit them all at once. - [Aaron] And so we're just gonna, some of these we're gonna wing answering. If we don't have good answers, we might say we don't know. We're not afraid to say we don't know. - [Jennifer] And just keep in mind that these are just our positions on these questions. How we would answer them based off of our experience and knowledge and-- - [Aaron] And things that we know of the Bible. - [Jennifer] Things that we know of the Bible and what we believe in so-- - [Aaron] Take it for what it is. - [Jennifer] Yeah and thank you guys again for asking these questions and sharing them with us and we really appreciate that. If you wanna jump on board for the next Q&A, just follow along on Instagram @marriageaftergod. - [Aaron] And you can always send us your questions in a message and we may not answer it in the message but we'll take down the question and potentially answer it in a future Q&A episode. We'd love to get those from you. So why don't we just jump right in to the first question and this is a doozy I feel like 'cause it's controversial, it could be. - [Jennifer] It could be yeah. - [Aaron] And they ask us their question and they said, our view on birth control. - [Jennifer] So what's your view on birth control? - [Aaron] That's a good question. - [Jennifer] It's a big question. - [Aaron] Okay, next question is, no I'm just kidding. Our view on birth control. - [Jennifer] Let me share my point of view first. - [Aaron] Okay, go ahead. - [Jennifer] I'll just be honest. I went on birth control 'cause that's what I heard you do when you get married. And so I went on the month before I got married and I chose to go off of it a month after we were married. So I was on it for a total of two months and I got married at 21, you were 22. And we were so excited married and so excited to-- - [Aaron] Be with each other physically. - [Jennifer] Yeah, experience what sex was like and it was awful. I'm just gonna be honest. It was very painful for me and so I scrambled, you guys. I tried to figure out why is my body responding this way because it was my body that was keeping us from experiencing-- - [Aaron] Physical intimacy. - [Jennifer] Healthy, physical intimacy. And so one of the things that came to my mind was something that was super obvious because over the course of that month of being married, not only were we having these issues but I gained a lot of weight. I got acne. - [Aaron] There was a lot of things going on. There was emotional stuff. - [Jennifer] Emotional ups and downs and mood swings and it was awful and I didn't feel myself. And so the obvious question then is what happened in the last few weeks that has changed me? - [Aaron] Other than getting married. - [Jennifer] I know it's a big transition. - [Aaron] I that that guy you married can make you feel crazy, I get it. - [Jennifer] But we narrowed it down to birth control and so I chose to go off of it and I haven't regretted it. - [Aaron] And it didn't fix everything but it did actually drastically change your mood. - [Jennifer] And some of the physical things that I was-- - [Aaron] Some of the physical things you were experiencing. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] So that's an experience you had with birth control. We know tons of people use birth control. I also know that there is certain people that say birth control is a sin. I'm not gonna go that far. I'm not gonna make statements like that. What I will say is I'm not an advocate for opting to put a chemical in your body to adjust and manipulate how your body is naturally meant to work. So that's my, you're meant to do a certain thing. Your body has been created to do a certain thing and birth control is meant to stop that thing from happening, to manipulate the way your body responds to certain things and I don't think that's great. We have a lot of stuff going on this world. A lot of sickness, a lot of problems and for us to be healthy and to do something like that to our healthy body, I don't think is very wise, personally. - [Jennifer] So just to clarify for those listening, you're not saying that you won't put anything on or in your body that helps stimulate positive things to happen in your body. You're saying, you wouldn't do something that would stop the natural function of your body. - [Aaron] I'm saying I don't think it's a good idea to put something in our bodies electively to stop the natural. - [Jennifer] That alters the natural. - [Aaron] Yeah 'cause there's, again, I'm not gonna. The question is about all the other things that happen in this life, we know taking things when you're sick. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say there's supplements and there's oils and there's things that are out there. - [Aaron] Right, that's different than I'm gonna take this birth control to stop my ovulation so that we don't get pregnant. I'm not gonna do that. That's just my personal perspective on this. And to be honest, there's most things like medically that I'm a little hesitant on just because I like to stay mostly natural as much as possible. But this is about birth control. I'm just saying that taking a woman's body, putting something in it to stop her from doing what it's naturally meant to do doesn't sound wise to me. Now on the spiritual side of things, we have to always ask ourselves the question of why are we trying to stop ourselves from having kids? Why are we trying to protect against that? And there's tons of worldly wisdom that we receive on why we should wait and what, there's this and that. And don't you wanna travel? Why don't you establish your marriage first? And none of those things line up with the things that we hear about in scripture about children being a blessing. That it's good for women to have children. People prayed when they were barren because they wanted children and all these positive. It's positive, positive, positive but our generation and the last couple of generations has heard the message of negative. Children are a hindrance. Children get in the way. Children are difficult, they're expensive. They're hard, some of these things are all true. Not all of them but some of these things are true but not in the sense of they're not a blessings. Not in the sense of we shouldn't do it. I think we should always be asking ourselves about our heart posture towards children because God's heart posture towards children from the words of Jesus. "Let the children come to me", that's what he said. - [Jennifer] I love that, that's so beautiful. - [Aaron] Don't hinder the children. - [Jennifer] That's really good. I was gonna say that personally, we think that it needs to be thoughtfully considered not just in its physical impact on someone's body but its spiritual impact. And I think you just hit it on the head with being a heart posture. - [Aaron] Absolutely. - [Jennifer] And asking ourselves why. - [Aaron] Yeah and what do we believe about God? Is he good? Does it give us good things? And has he made us a certain way? And yeah those are all true. So we don't believe in birth control, the chemical form. I would say do any form of birth control, and we're about to have our number five so everyone can logically find out, we don't do birth control. We would probably lean towards just what's it called? The rhythm method? - [Jennifer] Natural planning. - [Aaron] Natural planning. And again, that's not even perfect. It's more of to our own abilities, we're just gonna try and plan around this and if God gives us a child, we're gonna be stoked. - [Jennifer] Yeah, all right let's move on to number two. Okay number two says, what made you wait to have kids? - [Aaron] Made us is a good word because half of it was physical. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say this is a two parter for us. - [Aaron] We just talked about how we couldn't have sexual intimacy. - [Jennifer] Yup. - [Aaron] So it was not impossible but highly unlikely 'cause it was . - [Jennifer] We weren't doing the thing that makes the babies. - [Aaron] Yeah, the thing that makes the babies wasn't happening so there was no babies being made. And then the second part of that is, and this might have been out of a bitterness because we couldn't be with each other. I have feeling that some of it was from that bitterness but also some of it just straight from our own selfish pride. We would tell people, they would ask us when are you guys gonna have kids? And we'd be like, oh we're not gonna have kids for a while or maybe ever because we're too selfish. - [Jennifer] We like sleeping in. - [Aaron] We like traveling. We like this, we like that. We said these things out loud. This isn't thoughts we had. - [Jennifer] And I would agree. Some of it was probably just to give them an answer 'cause we weren't gonna straight dig into well, we can't have sex. So we found a different way to answer it but I think at the core, we truly believe those things as well. We were selfish. - [Aaron] I remember I would pridefully say it like it was something to boast about. - [Jennifer] Looking back-- - [Aaron] You are too selfish. - [Jennifer] Looking back that's so embarrassing. - [Aaron] I know what a fool I was that I would actually say that. God's looking at me at like I know who you are. - [Jennifer] I love you Aaron. - [Aaron] I was like a little child to him and he's patient with me, thank God. But what a fool that I would just boast about my selfishness which is opposed to God, to be selfish. I was literally boasting about my opposition to God. - [Jennifer] I wanted to share a little bit about this question. What came to my mind is well the physical. We couldn't and the selfish but I was also really terrified of having children and I don't remember it being a super affirmed thing growing up. And even though I came from a big family, it wasn't like I had this dream to have a big family myself. - [Aaron] And it wasn't like children are good. Children are a blessing. All you saw was there's all of this chaos at home sometimes. - [Jennifer] Yeah, so I remember just being really scared about having children. And so I was actually okay with not having children for a long time if any. I didn't have a hearts desire to have children. - [Aaron] And I actually, now you bring that up. I remember specifically a thought I had and I had it regularly was I didn't want children because we couldn't be together. All I thought I was like yeah that would be so perfect. We'd get pregnant the one time we do come together and then now like we couldn't enjoy each other, and now we have a kid. This totally negative connotation on having children because it was just gonna get in the way of the thing I wanted. - [Jennifer] Yeah and I think we talked about that even back then. Something that I didn't talk to you about that I really struggled with was the thought that if in that turmoil, those first three years if we did have a kid how much more it would tie me to you which is really depressing and sad to think about. I just am broken-hearted over those kinds of thoughts now. - [Aaron] But that's when we were in our sinful hearts. - [Jennifer] But that's where I was and I didn't have hope in our marriage. I truly believe that we're coming to the end so it was like I have to make sure even more that I don't get pregnant which was avoiding you. - [Aaron] Which made the whole thing worse. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it was a mess, you guys. - [Aaron] The devil is good at what he does. And it's why we have to resist him and it's why we have to put on the full armor of God 'cause these thoughts and things will come if we're not focused right. - [Jennifer] Now I have a part of this question to ask you. It has to do with this question, that's not here but would you have waited if you could have sex? - [Aaron] Back then? Well probably 'cause again I had my selfish heart of I thought tons of horrible things. I was thinking about your body and I was thinking about our sex, and I was thinking about being inconvenience with now I have to raise a child, and we're doing all these things. So absolutely, I think back then, selfishly would have waited. Not because I thought it was wise but because I didn't want to have to deal with it. - [Jennifer] Okay and I was thinking more like answering now having had children. - [Aaron] No, I wished we didn't have waited. - [Jennifer] I like that you're answering really honestly. - [Aaron] No, if I knew what I know now. - [Jennifer] I wouldn't have waited. - [Aaron] We'd have a 13-year-old. - [Jennifer] That's weird to think about. - [Aaron] How incredible would that be? We'd have a teenager. - [Jennifer] Wow, lots more growth opportunities for us. - [Aaron] No, I wouldn't have waited at all but to be honest it's God's sovereignty. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] He knew who we were. Our sin kept us away from it and it's probably better back then because we had some maturing to do. Not that I'm telling anyone they should choose to wait. I just think God knew what he was doing and he let us through a lot of stuff to grow us and make us into the men and women he wanted us to be. - [Jennifer] Yeah, all right. Number three, do you think numbering your children is necessary? - [Aaron] Yeah, I'd give a 10 to Elliott and then like all if I give-- - [Jennifer] What are you talking about? - [Aaron] I'm just kidding. Numbering, I'm thinking like . - [Jennifer] That's not what they're asking. - [Aaron] Numbering, the question is about should we have one, two, three, how many should we have? - [Jennifer] I was gonna change the question to what we usually get is what number do you guys want or what are you looking for? Because we do get asked that. - [Aaron] Yeah and it's usually with this like are you done yet look. Do you realize how many you have? We know exactly how many we have. So the question is do you think numbering your children is necessary? And I'm imagining the heart but it is do you think it's important to consider how many children we're having? Should we only have one or two or three? That's a pretty common thought. Most of the time, it comes in the form of, we only one, two or three. That's where that comes from. So Jennifer, do you think it's necessary. That's how the question is phrased. - [Jennifer] No, I don't think it's necessary. I don't think that we need to have a set number and we personally don't have a set number. - [Aaron] Our answer when someone asks, how many do you want is whatever God wants. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] Because to be honest, I don't know. - [Jennifer] To couple with that though, I do think that there's wisdom in every situation and so what I like to say is we take every pregnancy as it comes. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] Submit it to the Lord-- - [Aaron] And in between the pregnancies, we submit those to the Lord as well. - [Jennifer] Yeah, and you know what, it's a journey of walking with God saying God I trust you and it's not easy but-- - [Aaron] And I'll say this. - [Jennifer] He's doing this. - [Aaron] I'm gonna be a little candid here. There was a challenge after we had was it? - [Jennifer] Elliot. - [Aaron] Elliot and we went right back to that place in our hearts of we don't want any more. Elliot was difficult. It was our first child. - [Jennifer] He had colic. - [Aaron] He had colic for a couple months. - [Jennifer] I had nursing issues. - [Aaron] It was really difficult. And we just were like no, we can't do this any more. This is crazy, we are also-- - [Jennifer] Honestly-- - [Aaron] Publishing a book and we're thinking like how we're gonna do all this stuff and have another baby and everything was coming together. - [Jennifer] When I look back on it too, I don't remember it being a negative feeling. I just remember being okay with it being one. - [Aaron] We're like, we're fine. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] But again from all selfish positions. How are we gonna keep doing these things? That was too hard, I don't wanna do that again. And we were challenged by someone really hard and I'm gonna just explain to you what was challenging to us, and I'm gonna leave it at that. And they came to us and we were just sharing our hearts with them. And they very softly and gently said, you know the reasoning that you were coming to with this deciding not to want any more. And he brought up, is like it's usually for Christians, we say things like we want one, some or none. And it's like that sounds great. It sounds wise. One summer night, I'm gonna choose the size of my family. I think that's wise based off of whatever. Then they said that's very similar to the reasoning that pro-choicers have. It's your choice. Christians aren't gonna choose the abortion option right, hopefully. That's where the heart of a Christian shouldn't be that direction at all. We don't do that. But one, some or none is very similar and it's my choice. Pro-choice, I get to choose what I want. And he's explaining this to us and it cut us to the heart, and we realize wow, we're telling God, who's in charge of this area of our life. We want God to be sovereign in every area of our life except for this one. And so when they were explaining to us that we were essentially making decisions very similar to the idea of pro-choice. It's our choice and I want it to be pro-me whatever I want. And it really challenged us and it actually made us go and pray and dig into what we believed about children, and what we believed about our family, what God wants for us. - [Jennifer] I remember shortly after that conversation maybe even walking out of the restaurant, I told you that as I was sitting there listening, I could picture myself holding my hand shut tight and it was me as a Christian telling God, you are sovereign, you have every part of my life. I love you, lead me oh but you can't have this over here. - [Aaron] Don't touch this over here. - [Jennifer] And I was gripping it so tightly and I remember explaining this picture to you and just saying I feel like God wants me to open up my hands and trust Him. And I feel like we got pregnant about a week and a half later. - [Aaron] Yeah really quick. - [Jennifer] Really quick. - [Aaron] And I'll say this. It's easy to say, hard to do. Every single pregnancy we've had to go to God and say God, we need your help. We need to trust you more. We need to know what you have for us because it's difficult. Pregnancy is difficult. Children are difficult. It's just part of life so it's not like all of a sudden everything became rainbows and unicorns. It was like we have to trust God every single time which is what he wants. And then I'll say this as gently as possible 'cause I know the person that asked this question. I'm not trying-- - [Jennifer] There's a lot of people out there that asked. - [Aaron] There's a lot of people who have this question. I think the question is irrelevant and here's why I say that. You can say I want three kids and God only give you two. Is God wrong? Nope, I God bad? No. - [Jennifer] You could want two kids and never be able to conceive. - [Aaron] You could want one kid and never be able to conceive. You could want whatever you want. We could desire whatever we want. We can have this picture for our life and it's so perfect that oh if we just had a boy and a girl, you have six girls. I know people like that, okay. You could say lots of things. - [Jennifer] You can say you don't want any kids and then get pregnant. - [Aaron] We know people that are on birth control and I've gotten pregnant. We know people that have been barren for years. - [Jennifer] And have gotten pregnant. - [Aaron] And then have gotten pregnant. We know people that have had their tubes tied and then unfortunately have still gotten pregnant and had to have surgery because of the dangers of that. - [Jennifer] We also know the word of God and in Psalms when it talks about God knitting together a baby, a human inside a mother's womb, we know that's true. So it's from Him. - [Aaron] What we wanna do is we wanna say instead of asking well how many do we want? What's wrong with saying, God how many do you want? What do you want our family to look like? How do you want us to shape our family? You could say you want two children, right? And you have those two children and you stop, and there's no way for you to know that that third child was gonna be another Moses, another David. You don't know what God wants for you. So that's why I think that question is a little irrelevant because you think you have control. - [Jennifer] This is what the question should be. Do we trust what you have for us Lord? - [Aaron] Yeah and if that's a zero, and that doesn't mean that doesn't come with heartbreak but if it's zero, then God gets to choose that. If it's one, then God gets to choose that. Me and Jennifer are on number five and this could literally be our last child. We have no way of knowing. Something would happen. We could just not get pregnant again. Things happen or we could have another five. I don't know. But we want to trust the Lord with everything. I wanna encourage you to do the same. Whether that's zero, one, two, three, five, 10. That's the question we should be asking. Number four, what's the best way to prepare for or not be fearful of having a newborn? This is a good one 'cause we're literally right there. - [Jennifer] Yeah and you know what fear is a natural thing and it always comes with that feeling of I don't know what's on the other side of labor, or delivery, or having a newborn, and I struggled with all those fears. But when I look back and I think about my first baby, holding him in my arms, it's the most beautiful, miraculous thing I can think of. - [Aaron] And you don't necessarily look back and dwell on the pain. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] You know it's there. - [Jennifer] I know it happened. - [Aaron] You look back and we think about those-- - [Jennifer] The joy and the love and the incredible miracle that comes with having a child. And I think that we should also just note that this probably whoever asked this question is going to give birth to a baby but I think even for adoption. When you think of the other ways that people build their families. I think there's a lot of fear that comes. A lot of fearful thoughts that could come with the unknowns but we just wanna be an encouragement to you guys that you're not alone. God is with you and do everything in prayer. The Bible tells us to pray without ceasing, to pray constantly. - [Aaron] To pray for everything. - [Jennifer] To pray for everything and to be thankful. And so I think the first way that I would respond to this question is pray, and pray with your spouse. Pray together over your family and over every situation. - [Aaron] Present those fears to the Lord and say Lord, here's some things I'm afraid of. Give me peace, give me your peace. That's what he tells us to pray for everything. With thanksgiving, lift your request to Lord. - [Jennifer] And the other thing I would say is meditate on his Word. What does God say about children? What does God say about birth? What does God say about families? Things that comes to my mind is John 16:21. It says, "When a woman is giving birth, "she has sorrow because her hour has come "but when she has delivered the baby, "she no longer remembers the anguish "for joy that a human being has been born into the world." That's what I remember. - [Aaron] That's an awesome statement by the way. For joy that a human being has been born. That's so cool and it is true because the pain is real. It's a thing you get to experience. You can talk about that in a second about experiencing the pain but you remember the joy of that child, holding the baby, seeing their face for the first time hearing their coos for the first time. - [Jennifer] I know I said this. It's miraculous, it truly is. - [Aaron] Yeah and seeing them grow up is miraculous too. I can't imagine my life without any of these kids. - [Jennifer] I know and I feel so grateful that the Lord trusted me and gave me these gifts. It's so wonderful. Another verse that comes to my mind and something good to dwell on is Psalm 127:3. It says, "Behold children are a heritage from the Lord. "The fruit of the womb, a reward." - [Aaron] So preparing yourself for having a newborn is you're preparing to have a reward and to build a heritage that he's giving you. That's really cool. - [Jennifer] A good resource for becoming new parents, you should check out "Redeeming Childbirth" by Angie Tolpin. It was just a really good book to bring perspective to having children and what that looks like biblically. So if you wanna check that out just go to courageousmom.com. One last thing that I just wanna encourage you guys with, and this you can do prior to having your first baby but you should also be doing it throughout parenting, and that's just talking about those fears with your spouse whenever they come up. And using those opportunities to encourage one another. If the wife is afraid, the husband can go to the word of God and console her and comfort her and encourage her. If the husband has some fears and he's being vulnerable about them, she can encourage him through the word of God and through prayer, and I just think that is so vital for us to be one in the way that we are experiencing the same thing, right parenthood. And another thing you could do is find someone who you admire, who has experience that you can ask questions to. I know as a new mom, I had so many questions. I still have so many questions. And so finding someone who you can be in communication with even if it's just a quick text or if you can get into community with several people who you can have questions too, and really just have that support system. It's really important - [Aaron] Yeah and that actually leads into our last question, number five really well. This person asked us if we can talk about the best ways to invest in our spouse before having kids. - [Jennifer] Okay. - [Aaron] Which is a cool thing because we could have done this. - [Jennifer] I know we did this for, no, we should have been doing this for years. The first thing that comes to my mind is having regular date nights and when you don't have kids and you're married, it can be so easy to just make everything feel like a date because you're with each other but making it significant somehow. - [Aaron] Getting it on the calendar, making it a regular occurrence. - [Jennifer] And doing something out of the norm, right? So like if you guys regularly already do something together, don't consider that your date. Go do something else. - [Aaron] Yeah, and what's good about that is it puts you into a really healthy pattern and habit so that after the kids, you guys will long and be like, hey, we need to get back on track. - [Jennifer] Not after the kids are grown and raised, you mean after having kids. - [Aaron] I'm saying after six weeks of healing and getting better. You guys are like, hey, we need to get back on schedule with our date nights, that's important. And for awhile, you're gonna have the baby with you and then eventually you'll get a baby sitter. But you start that up and it's there. It's existing. - [Jennifer] And just to encourage you guys, we've gone on dates with babies before and it can be done. - [Aaron] Just find those restaurants that-- - [Jennifer] Are really loud. - [Aaron] Either really loud or mostly full of older couples 'cause they love seeing young couples with their babies. - [Jennifer] Most of the times. - [Aaron] Most of the times. - [Aaron] Some restaurants don't like it but the experience we've had, we have people come up and be like, oh, your baby's so wonderful. This is so cool seeing a couple with children now. Anyways that's a good tip. For the husband's preparing your spouse before kids just doing what a Ephesians five says, "Washing your wife with the Word." Continually speaking God's truth into her life over her reminding her what the word of God says, reminding of her of who she is, what she's capable of, how God made her and building her up because those are the things that are gonna continually give her confidence. Make her feel like she can be a mom that she can handle pregnancy and labor and that she is going to be a victor in that area. So it's immensely powerful the words that a husband speaks over her life which is why we're commanded to wash our wives with not any words but the Word. With God's Word, reminding her of who she is, what God's doing in her life. That the thing that she's going to do. Having a child is such a powerful and beautiful thing that as she disciples that child, she's literally making world changers. Growing the Kingdom of Heaven within your home. It's a powerful thing. - [Jennifer] That's awesome, I love that. Another thing that I would say and this is something to continually do throughout your marriage, but to get really good at it is practicing transparency. Aaron and I talk about this a lot and it's something that I feel like we were actually pretty good at in our marriage but could have been even better way sooner at, and that's just being transparent and honest with one another when you're struggling with sin. You confess that you repent. When you're wrestling with insecurities or doubt or frustrations, you talk about it and you find a way if you're at conflict with one another, you reconcile. All those really important-- - [Aaron] Getting better at those things. - [Jennifer] Communication things. - [Aaron] Which will be huge for your children to see and to benefit from. - [Jennifer] And your parenting because there's gonna be a lot of situational things that come up that you'll have to be transparent with one another in and talk about so that you're on the same page when you parent. - [Aaron] Which leads into the other thing, and this is hugely important. Overcoming sin and bad habits. So for the husbands, if you guys are struggling with pornography, and you think it's just like not a big deal. And you're like, oh it's every once in a while. Just realize what you do, you're gonna teach your children. And I wish I would have known that earlier. I wish I would have recognized the the magnitude of walking in what I saw as hidden sin or things that I was getting a handle on. But it's just every once in awhile, it's not that big of a deal, minimizing those things. Maximize them, take those things in your life and say no, I need to get this out of my life. I'm not gonna smoke any more. I'm not gonna show my kids that habit. The way I eat. The hidden sins of my life, pornography. The way I talk. If you have issue with bad language. Those are things that you're gonna teach your kids and so work on it. Confess them, find freedom from them. Walk in the freedom that Christ has already given us on the cross and walk in it so that you can teach your kids to walk in it. The same freedom. - [Jennifer] Have authority in their lives. - [Aaron] Yeah as a pastor once told me, purity is power. Walking in purity is powerful. Say that last line right there, babe. - [Jennifer] I just put a note on here. Have children, because the question was how do you invest in your spouse before having kids. - [Aaron] Which can be-- - [Jennifer] It could be any range of things. It could maybe you're already pregnant and you're just waiting for the baby to come but it could also be we chose not to have kids right now, so what can we be doing? Well I'll tell you what, if there's one thing in Aaron's and I life that has stimulated growth in our relationship-- - [Aaron] That God's used to sanctify us in huge ways. - [Jennifer] Absolutely, or to just grow closer to each other in opportunities in ways that we never would have known or experienced, it was through having children. And so I've really appreciated that about our journey and where we've been, and so hopefully that just encourages you guys. - [Aaron] Those are five questions that we received from the community. Again we're not the end-all be-all to these answers but we try the best of our ability to look at the word of God, to look at experience and see how God is trying to change the way we think about things. - [Jennifer] I'll say this, answering the questions is not easy for me. I'm a peacemaker and I don't wanna ruffle anyone's feathers or ever put things out there that make people feel uncomfortable, but at the same time I want you guys to know where Aaron and I are on some of these topics because you're you're listening in, you're following us. And for whatever reason, God has trusted us with an opportunity to share these with you. And so I hope that through our experience and through the things that we have shared with you today, if anything, you get to go back to the table with your own spouse and talk about them, and share your own perspectives, and thoughts behind them. And we just encourage you to, like Aaron said, get in the scriptures and dive into what God has to say about these and let that be the foundation for what you believe and your your viewpoints and your perspectives on some of these topics. - [Aaron] 1 John tells us to test every spirit and to discern. So don't just take what we're saying as pure gold. Go yourself to the word of God and find them out. But if you're not willing to go to the word of God, and you just wanna disagree and have your own opinion, you have to understand something that we're not called to just do that. We're called to trust the word of God. And so I wanna challenge you if you are in that place, go to word of God. Take the things we've said and go dig in. Find out what God thinks about all these questions. What God thinks about children in the womb and raising children. You find out for yourself and come up with your own conclusions based off of what the word of God says, not off of what we say. But we love you, and as always win in prayer so please join us. - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift and blessing of children. Thank you for creating and designing us with the ability to recreate. What an incredible miracle life truly is. We thank you for the opportunity to build our family and have children. We pray for others to either have not had children yet or are in waiting their first in anticipation. May you lead them in a way you desire them to walk and to grow together. We praise you for all those who have children and we pray also for those who can't have children for whatever reason maybe. You are sovereign and we trust you. We continue to surrender our hearts to you as you lead us in parenting and raising our children to know you. Please help us with our fears and insecurities. Please remind us every day of the purpose we have with our family. May your name be glorified in Jesus' name, amen. - [Aaron] Amen. And guys as always, I just wanna invite you to leave us a review, a star rating. We love those. They're incredibly powerful and effective in spreading the word about the podcast. We love you all and we pray that you guys would just grow closer to God and you chase his will for your life and get his heart on the matter of children. See you next week. 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I would imagine that suffering is not a very popular topic amongst most churches today but suffering is a vital and important part of every believer's life and It should not and cannot be a topic that is left out of our Biblical thinking. Suffering comes in many forms and our heart today is to discuss the biblical view of suffering and how it is a powerful mindset and tool in our lives.Download Free Thinghttp://marriageprayerchallenge.com/Topic NOTESI have bee systematically teaching through 1st peter and last week we got to chapter 4:1-Devotional - what are we learning from the WordRomans 8 "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry."Suffering as a believerCease from sinDepriving my flesh is sufferingBeing in human nature and submitting to God is telling your flesh noChoosing to walk in the SpiritUniversal doctrine sufferingRomans 8 to explain whoever suffers … putting away of flesh is causing our flesh to suffer“want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.We have been freed from the “want to do” God gives us new desires new cravings. As we walk in our new selves it growsDefine:Sensuality - Not just sexualTHE WORLDLY DEFINITION IS PURELY SEXUAL.THE BIBLICAL USE is: unbridled lustLiving for pleasure of every sense - pleasing the 5 senses rather than pleasing GodFROM WIKIPEDIA: Hedonism is a school of thought that argues pleasure and suffering are the only components of well-being. Ethical hedonism is the view that combines hedonism with welfarist ethics, which claim that what we should do depends exclusively on what affects the well-being individuals have. Ethical hedonists would defend either increasing pleasure and reducing suffering for all beings capable of experiencing them, or just reducing suffering in the casePassions - Not just what are you passionate about in lifeBeing controlled by our emotions and serving our emotions vs pleasing God - affected by sensuality in that when we are not feeling good or something not pleasing instead of suffering we let our emotional response dictate our actions - flesh isn't getting what it wants so our choice is to suffer in the flesh and choose to walk in the spirit or suffer in the spirit and walk in flesh they are opposedDrunkenness - Not just being drunk from intoxicationOvertaken by a substance or something out side your bodyProverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise."Ephesians 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,"Removal of natural function - (Inhibition) ConscienceOrgies - Not just a sexual experienceOverindulgenceGiving into your flesh never satiated never enoughEcclesiastes 1:8 "All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing."HISTORICAL "secret rites used in the worship of Bacchus, Dionysus, and other Greek and Roman deities, celebrated with dancing, drunkenness, and singing."Drinking parties - Not just drinking at a party or hosting one intentionallyIt is inviting others to partake with you in all of the aboveNo one likes to feel the weight of shame or guilt alone so if theyMisery loves companyApproval so you can keep doing itWhy godly fellowship is so importantLawless Idolatry - All of this ends with self-worshipHow I feel what I want what I pursueOpposite of dying to self or taking up crossEach one shows the progress of worshipping self vs the CreatorPrayerDear Lord,Thank you for your word and how it cuts us to the heart. Thank you for teaching us through your word. We pray your word would continue to transform us as we learn it and choose to walk out all that you command us to. We pray we would be people who recognize parts of our hearts that need to change, sin that needs to be repented of, motivations that are not pure, and actions that do not reflect your ways for the purpose of repentance and reconciliation and growth. May your will be done in us and through us. May your light shine brightly through our marriages as we encourage one another to draw closer to you.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're going to talk about why suffering is good for us. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade - [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - Love. - And power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. - [Aaron] Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God Podcast. - [Jennifer] Hi. - [Aaron] We love you guys. I just wanna say, the first episode of this season of this year, I think it got up to number 32 or 33 on the charts in iTunes. So that's all because of our listeners. - [Jennifer] Thank you guys! - [Aaron] Downloading all of these episodes, your guys rock, I just wanna say thank you. - [Jennifer] Hopefully they liked it, you know, thought it was a good episode to kick off the year with. - [Aaron] Yeah, if you liked it, share about the episode, take a screenshot of it, post it on Instagram, Facebook, tag us in it, we love seeing those. - [Jennifer] @MarriageAfterGod. - [Aaron] And we might even share about your post on our Instagram account. - [Jennifer] That'd be awesome. Okay, so Aaron, why don't you just give a little update where you at, how's your week, what's going on? - [Aaron] I think we talked about it last time. I'm starting to get up earlier. For a while I've been getting up around 5:30 and going to the gym, I've been doing that for a couple years now and recently I told you, Jennifer, that I wanted to get up even earlier. - [Jennifer] I was shocked actually. - [Aaron] To give myself an hour in the morning to get in the Word 'cause remarkably if I don't purpose to do it, it doesn't happen. So I figured what's the best way to do that. - [Jennifer] Or your amount of time spent in it wasn't as much. - [Aaron] Yeah, and so I figured the best thing to do would be get up earlier. - [Jennifer] Okay, so now what does your morning routine look like? - [Aaron] So I've been getting up a four, my alarm goes off at four, and then I hit snooze a couple times. I've been getting up around 4:20, 4:30. - [Jennifer] Now, the first time you did it, I was woken up because usually you sneak out of the house pretty quietly. - I turned the light on. - You turned every light on. - [Aaron] I didn't turn every light on. - [Jennifer] It was so bright and then I was up at 4:30. - [Aaron] What the problem was is I forget to set all of my stuff out the night before and I couldn't find anything. - You weren't prepared. - I wasn't prepared. You should always be prepared. If you wanna have a good morning routine. - Good marriage. - Oh. - Oh. - [Aaron] If you wanna have a good morning routine and a good marriage, prepare, put your stuff out, get everything ready that you're gonna be grabbing, so you don't have to look for it and scavenge. - [Jennifer] And I'm just using it, I'm not even mad about it. I went back to bed. - [Aaron] I mean I'm only a few days into it and it hasn't been terrible because I go to the gym now earlier and I'll say this, I really enjoyed going to Starbucks and sitting down, there's no one there, and getting into the Word, that was awesome. And also I started back up doing my intermittent fasting. - [Jennifer] You did that for a while like a year ago. - [Aaron] Yeah, and I only stopped because I was just trying to do something different, get more calories. But I'm going back to it because I feel like I got too much calories. - [Jennifer] Okay. - [Aaron] I really like intermittent fasting. And if you don't know what intermittent fasting is go look it up, it's pretty cool. - [Jennifer] Why don't you just explain real quick briefly what you mean. - [Aaron] Essentially you fast for 16 hours and then you have an eight hour window of eating. Essentially you just miss breakfast. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say most of us fast throughout the night, but this is more intentional, don't have that before-bedtime snack or anything. - [Aaron] Yeah, I'll usually not eat from seven o'clock until 11 or noon the next day. Which is not always easy. - [Jennifer] You also fit in those calories at lunch and dinner 'cause you work out, they know you do CrossFit, you lift heavy weights so you need that energy. - [Aaron] Yeah, I need enough. But it also does help me maintain how much I'm eating and it also makes me think about what I'm eating so I eat better instead of just spreading all those calories out. Anyways I've gotten back into that and kinda liking it. - [Jennifer] Awesome, very cool. Okay you guys, we also wanna encourage you to sign up right now for the Marriage Prayer Challenge if you have not done that yet. It's really awesome. Aaron, how many couples have already joined? - [Aaron] Almost 30,000 couples. There's actually a number counter on the sign up page, and it's a real number counter. I didn't make it up or faked it, it's actually counting people that sign up. - [Jennifer] Okay, so you just go to MarriagePrayerChallenge.com you can sign up for the husband version or the wife version and what do they get? - [Aaron] They're gonna get a email every day around the time that they signed up, giving them a prompt and a reminder to pray for their spouse. - [Jennifer] Awesome, come on you guys, go sign up, it's awesome. - [Aaron] Yeah, so it's MarriagePrayerChallenge.com. Completely free, just give us your email and your name and boom, you'll start getting those emails every day for 30 days. - [Jennifer] So today's topic is on why suffering is good for us. And we're not just talking about physical suffering or sickness or things like that, but we're gonna get into, well we're just gonna get into something that you spoke on recently Aaron that really, really moved me because I love it when you can look at Scripture and see it a different way, I need that help sometimes, someone else coming in and going, "Hey, look at this, this is awesome." So I just wanna dig in. So this is kind of like a devotional style episode. - [Aaron] Yeah, Jennifer and I came up with this idea to do one devotional focused episode every month and so this will be that one. And the topic is something I actually taught on this last Sunday. And you said, "Hey, we should "do an episode on that teaching." So that's what we're gonna do. We'll talk about stuff I brought up from Scripture and then you might have some questions for me, but it's pretty cool, and it's on a very small section of Scripture. - [Jennifer] I'll say this, one reason that I love that you're my husband is that you teach me and I love that. I love that you can look at Scripture and teach me from it and so I'm excited about this episode because I feel like you're gonna have the opportunity to teach others with the same impact that you've had in my life just over this one Scripture. - [Aaron] Well thank you, that's awesome. - [Jennifer] Keep it up, Aaron. - [Aaron] I wanna emphasize that my hope and prayer is that whenever I'm teaching the Word of God that it's not my opinion, not my own flavor of things, but that I'm just trying to clearly teach what the Word of God is saying. So I hope that's what I'm doing right now. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's good. - [Aaron] So I'll just kick it off that the section of Scripture that we're going to be discussing is mainly from I Peter, chapter four. And it's only the first four verses, which is gonna be the chunk of what we're talking about. And it doesn't sound like a lot of Scripture, but there's actually a lot in here. We're also gonna dig into Romans eight, and that has a little bit more, so there's still a lot of reading. - [Aaron] There's a lot of Scripture to help give context to these few lines of text. So are we gonna start out with you reading I Peter? - Yeah. - Like give 'em just the context of what we're going to be talking about? - [Aaron] So it's actually verses one through three, I'm gonna read it right now, starting at verse one. "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, "arm yourselves with the same way of thinking. "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, "so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh, "no longer for human passions, but for the will of God. "For the time that is past suffices for doing "what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, "passions, drunkenness, orgies, "drinking parties, and lawless idolatry." - [Jennifer] Okay, so before we jump into these set of Scriptures, can you just expand a little bit about when it comes to doctrine and universal doctrine? - [Aaron] Yeah, so I start off this teaching actually on Sunday just explaining how when we come up with doctrine, which are the fundamental things that a believer should walk in, teach. These are the things that are core, doctrines in the Word of God. A doctrine, in order for it to be a doctrine, it's gotta be universal. You can't pull something from Scripture and say, "This is doctrine, but it doesn't apply "in Iran, it doesn't apply in Africa, "it doesn't apply in the suburbs." - [Jennifer] Right, or just certain groups of people. Or certain churches. - [Aaron] Right, so if we interpret or pull things from Scripture that isn't universally applied when taught then it's gotta be interpreted through universal doctrine. So that you can't just pull that and say, "Well, that's doctrine." And one example of this would be the prosperity gospel, this idea that God wants every single person to be wealthy, and perfectly healthy, which isn't backed up with Scripture at all. - [Jennifer] We also don't see it in real life. - [Aaron] Yeah, you don't see it played out. There's people all over the world that are not wealthy or healthy, but they love the Lord, God uses them, this is reality on both sides. We see Scripture, like in Ecclesiastes that God gives rain to the evil and the good, evil and the righteous. So there are certain things that he has a certain level of blessing on every person, he gives breath, he gives the sunlight, he gives rain, he gives food, sustenance, regardless of how they are. So the prosperity gospel in the sense of God wants you to prosper financially and with possessions doesn't work universally. But what does work, and this is where I ended off was the universal doctrine of suffering. Without suffering there is no salvation. Christ learned obedience through the things that he suffered. He says that believers will suffer. - [Jennifer] Which kicks us off for this verse that you read, which I don't know if you wanna read it again. - [Aaron] Yeah, it says, "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh," it doesn't say suffered in the spirit, he suffered in the flesh. It says, "Arm yourselves with this same way of thinking." - [Jennifer] Not just some of you, not just you over there in the corner, arm yourself. - [Aaron] Yeah, it tells every believer to arm themselves with this way of thinking of understanding the suffering of Christ. - [Jennifer] And the suffering of the flesh. - [Aaron] And the suffering in the flesh, which we're gonna get into. So when I say doctrine, this idea that suffering is a doctrinal teaching. We cannot subtract it from Scripture, we cannot subtract it from the Christian life. We cannot say, "Yeah, that's good, but only for Christ, "and then he doesn't want his children to suffer." He says, "If I suffered, you will also suffer. "They hated me, they're gonna hate you." These are all things that the Bible teaches and no matter where you go in the world, it doesn't matter where you live it should be something that is taught and understood by the believer this idea, this doctrine of suffering. But there's many types of suffering. And what we wanna talk about right now is what is this talking about. What am I arming myself when realizing Christ suffered? What's the weapon that I'm using? And what it is is an understanding of what suffering is for the believer and why it's so good for us in the varying aspects. 'Cause the first thing we think of probably is suffering, massive pain or loss, which is definitely a form of suffering. But really what suffering is at the base level is our flesh-- - Dying to ourselves, yeah. - Yeah, dying. That's what suffering is. When Jesus says, "Take up your cross and follow me," the cross is the instrument of death of your flesh, your body. You put a body on it and it dies there. And so suffering in the sense that we're gonna talk about is not just this overtly physical suffering. It's telling our flesh no, that's suffering. And as we go through this scripture, we'll see that more and more. But that's what we wanna get the believer, everyone listening to understand is we shouldn't be running from suffering. We shouldn't fear the idea that our flesh is gonna endure some sort of discomfort and pain and that we're not gonna always get what we want and we're gonna have to tell ourselves no and these are all forms of telling our flesh no, it's suffering. The body suffers when it doesn't get what it wants, that's suffering. When you feel pain, it's something that the body doesn't want, which is why you get that pain signal saying, "Hey, this is not good, stop it." - [Jennifer] Right, we really hope that this episode is encouraging to you guys and gives you a fresh perspective of how suffering is good for us, especially in context to our sin nature and the suffering of our flesh. - [Aaron] Which is the exact purpose of this. Of putting away that sin nature and having the spirit of God win and not the flesh. - [Jennifer] Do you wanna jump in to Romans eight? - [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause Romans eight gives us a perfect context for the second part of the scripture that says "Arm yourselves with the same way of thinking." Right, so we realize that Christ suffered in the flesh, we can have the same way of thinking of recognizing the suffering of our flesh is a weapon against something. And it says, "For whoever has suffered "in the flesh has ceased from sin." And this can be taken very literally, which it should be, I think because if we have perfectly suffered the way Christ has we would have perfectly ceased from sin because once we're dead and gone with God there's no more sin in us. But we're in the flesh, so it says, "Whoever suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin," and I think Romans eight perfectly clarifies what this is saying, and it says this in Romans eight, verse one, "There is therefore now no condemnation "for those who are in Christ Jesus." First and foremost believer, believe this. "There is therefore now no condemnation "for those who are in Christ Jesus. "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free "in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." So what has set you free from the law of sin and death? It's Christ and his Spirit, right? It says, "For God has done what the law, "weakened by our flesh, could not do. "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh "and for sin he condemned sin in the flesh "in order that the righteous requirement of the law "might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to "the flesh, but according to the Spirit." - [Jennifer] I feel like you should reiterate that last part. - [Aaron] What he's saying is the law, which is good, and perfect, and righteous couldn't save any man because man has weak flesh. In our flesh we cannot fulfill the law. But Christ did fulfill the law in his own flesh. Right? And so what it's saying is that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us through the putting away of our flesh through Christ. - [Jennifer] Right, I just love that last part that you just read, it says, "Who walk not according to the flesh, "but according to the Spirit," which is foundational to what we're gonna be teaching from I Peter and it's a choice, they're all choices, right? - [Aaron] These are choices that the believer have because we've been set free, so we have the freedom to now choose righteousness rather than only being obedient to sin. - [Jennifer] Right, and it's through our actions that we walk according not to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. - [Aaron] Right, so this says, "Walk not according to the flesh," so if you take anyone who has suffered in the flesh and say, "Anyone who walks not according to the flesh, "but according to the Spirit ceases from sin," that's kind of what this is saying. This is verse five, "For those who live according "to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, "but those who live according to the Spirit "set their minds on the things of the Spirit." - [Jennifer] Okay, I gotta stop you again because I feel like there's often, I'm sure everybody can relate to this, but when you struggle with sin, and you wrestle with those temptations that come, your mind is on it, right, like when your mind is set on something that your flesh desires and wants to do it doesn't go away until either you do it or you tell it no. - [Aaron] Which is suffering. And this is where we're trying to define this. - [Jennifer] But that whole setting your mind, it starts there. - [Aaron] And it says this, "For to set the mind "on the flesh is death, but to set the mind "on the Spirit is life and peace." - [Jennifer] Raise your hand if you want life and peace. - [Aaron] "For the mind that is set "on the flesh is hostile to God." - [Jennifer] I don't want that. - [Aaron] Hostile, like you're an enemy of God when your mind's on the flesh, "For it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." So when the Bible tells us that the flesh and the Spirit are opposed to each other, are against each other, that's what this is saying. Saying when you're walking in the flesh you can't please God, you're an enemy. When you walk in the Spirit, you please God. And it's God's Spirit that we walk in. And then it says this, "You," believer, "however "are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ "does not belong to him. "But if Christ is in you, "although the body is dead because of sin, "the Spirit is life because of righteousness." So remember we said whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin? Let's put it this way, although the body is dead, suffered in the flesh because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. So the Spirit that God's put in us has brought to life our mortal bodies, and listen to this, verse 11, "If the Spirit of him "who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead "will also give life to your mortal bodies "through his Spirit who dwells in you." So I thought this Scripture perfectly illustrated what says right here when it says, "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. "So as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh "no longer for human passions, but for the will of God." So when we're gonna get more and more right now into this idea of suffering in the flesh, it's this idea of walking in the Spirit and not the flesh as Romans also says. When you gratify the desires of the flesh you cannot please God, right? But if you walk in the Spirit, you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Right? - Yeah. - [Aaron] So this is what this is getting to, Peter's talking here, and he's explaining how Christ suffering in the flesh has done this for us. Has given us a way to suffer in our flesh, not in a way of self-salvation because we can't, Christ already did it. His suffering was sufficient. But because of his suffering and from his own words 'cause he left and went home to be with the Father, he sent his helper, the Spirit, to work in us and through us for his will and his work in us. So what we can do now is we can learn to suffer in our flesh via the Holy Spirit. Meaning I don't gratify the desires of my flesh. So when you want a donut, I love donuts. - [Jennifer] I love donuts. - [Aaron] Or you want that new car, or you want your neighbor's thing, coveting, right? Or you want to avoid shame so you lie, these are all fruit of the flesh, these are all things to protect your flesh. I don't like the way that feels, I don't wanna be embarrassed, I don't wanna look shameful, I have pride, I don't want them to think this way about me. It's all the flesh, so suffering is, like here's a form of suffering in the flesh, humbleness. That's painful, humbling yourself. Getting down on your knees and saying, "I am this thing, I did this thing, I said this, "and I want to be forgiven by You." Like humbling yourself, recognizing you're not that great of a person is suffering, is telling your flesh no. I'd rather you suffer and my spirit be lifted up. - [Jennifer] So you started out that little lineup of things that people struggle with was a donut so can you just explain, 'cause eating a donut doesn't have to deal with humility, what does it have to deal with? - [Aaron] Well again, our flesh, and I explained this on Sunday, I was talking about how our brains work. Our brain matter, it's flesh, it's a compilation of cells and there's these chemicals that get released and you have sensors, and receptors, and you have all these things that God gave us to work a certain way, pleasure sensors and pain sensors and all these things, and those are all the flesh. Now what the point is is that you don't just shut 'em all off. It's to put them into submission to the Spirit. So a donut right, having a donut's not sinful. Like, oh, a donut's good. But not having any control and letting your senses control you is not walking in the Spirit, it's walking in the flesh. Like that See Food diet, I see food and I eat it. That's not having any control, the Spirit's not in charge, your conscience isn't in charge, it's, "Oh I see it and I'm gonna put it "in my mouth and eat it." - [Jennifer] So the donut can represent a lot of different things. - [Aaron] Think about pornography. Like you're not controlling your flesh. You're saying, "Flesh, you can have whatever you want." - [Jennifer] That's not suffering. - [Aaron] No, well we suffer in the Spirit. - [Jennifer] And we suffer the consequences. - [Aaron] Yeah, we suffer the consequences, but you're not causing your flesh to suffer, telling your flesh, "No, I don't want you to have it. "I know you want that, I know you crave it, "I know you think that's gonna be good for you, "but the Spirit of God that's in me says no." - [Jennifer] That's good. Okay, so I wanna move on because there's a lot of clarity that comes from this next verse and how you broke it down, which is what impacted me probably the most out of this teaching. And so I'm gonna reread the verse, it's verse three, it says, "For the time that is past suffices "for doing what the Gentiles want to do," and I remember you stopped and said, "Underline that." - Underline want to do. - Want to do. 'Cause our flesh wants to do a lot of things. You just gave those examples. "Living in sensualities, passions, drunkenness, "orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatries. - [Aaron] You've read this a lot, right? - [Jennifer] Yeah, I've read this a lot, but I need to explain because I'm sure people relate to me on this. When you read certain scriptures, it's not that you don't say, "And I know I'm not perfect, "I know that there's sin in my life, "and I'm willing to have open eyes "and for God to reveal that to me, "but when I read this I go, 'well, I'm not really "'struggling with those things, "'I don't really have drinking parties or whatever.'" But you broke it down in a way that makes this verse relatable to all sinners. And so I wanna share that. - [Aaron] And let's remember what the context of this is. Christ's suffering, being armed with this way of thinking, recognizing that our flesh, having our flesh suffer while walking in the Spirit is how we cease from sin, it is how we walk the way God wants us to. And so he gives the contrast, he says, "For the time that has past suffices for doing "what the Gentiles want to do." Now when it says, "Gentiles," it's meaning Godless people. Gentiles were anyone that wasn't a Jewish person. And so what he's pointing out is not specifically Gentiles, he's saying anyone doesn't have God, isn't walking with God. And want to do, saying this is the way they want to be. And then it says, "Living in sensualities, "passions, drunkenness," and what I did is I broke down what these things are. - [Jennifer] And how they're all related. - 'Cause they're specific. - Yeah, they're very specific, and I didn't realize that they were even related. I just thought it was one of those lists, you know? - [Aaron] Again, if you're listening and you have your Bible, the want to do part. Okay, it's want to live in sensuality, and passions, and drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry, right? And like you said, "Well see I don't "struggle with those things." And maybe someone like me that struggled with pornography might point out sensuality and passions like okay, yeah, but I've never done orgies, that's not me. But I wanna highlight that through Christ and his suffering and him giving us of his Holy Spirit we've been freed from the want to do, right? He's changing our desires to be his, he's giving us a hatred of sin because he hates sin. - [Jennifer] And I think in conjunction, the convictions become stronger and so we hear the Holy Spirit loud and clear when we go to do something that we shouldn't be doing, right? - [Aaron] Our prayer and constant desire should be that he's consistently giving us new desires and new cravings. I pray, "Lord, give me a craving for your Word." I don't naturally in my flesh have enough craving for God's Word, let alone reading. Sorry if you relate to that, reading's not something I just crave to do, but there's some people that love reading. But I want God to change those desires so the want to do is an amazing thing that God's freed us from that we're no longer slaves to sin. That's the want to do. - [Jennifer] We're not slaves to our flesh. - [Aaron] We're not slaves to our flesh, God severed that slavery with his Spirit. And now we can actually walk in that Spirit when we focus on that Spirit and we walk in his ways in his Word, that's how this works. So I'm gonna define some of these things. Sensuality, it's not just sexual. Our definition of sensuality is usually very sexual and this absolutely does mean sexual, sensuality. But it's not only sexual. Sexual's one sense. It's one sense being usually this physical pleasure. - [Jennifer] That's what comes to my mind when I think about it. - [Aaron] But sensuality in the biblical use is unbridled lust. Unbridled lust. This idea of lust, I see something, I take it. So think about your five senses, sensual, it's a sensation experience. You're looking for you five senses to be pleasured. I want my eyes to see the most beautiful things. - [Jennifer] Or whatever I want them to see. - [Aaron] Or whatever I want them to see. I want my hands to touch whatever is gonna make my mind feel good. - [Jennifer] I want my mouth to say whatever I feel. - [Aaron] Or taste, right? So you think about your five senses and sensuality is living to please your five senses with whatever pleases your five senses. That's what sensuality is. Often, sexual things encompass all of them, which is why it's usually accompanied with sensuality as a sexual thing because sexual things please pretty much all your senses. But food, music, all of these things, not that those things in themselves are sinful, I want everyone to clearly hear me. It's living in a way that you want your senses pleased. 'Cause that's the opposite of suffering. That's the opposite of suffering. It's living for pleasure in every sense. You want your five senses taken care of, and if anyone of them are hindered or hurt or suffer, you're not happy, and something's wrong, and God must be angry or I'm not close to God. - [Jennifer] And you can see this in the flesh when you feel the conviction of either someone saying something to you about something that you're doing or the Holy Spirit just does it and you feel defensive. You immediately wanna justify that thing that it's not that bad, or that it's this or that it's that and you become, you wanna fight for it. There's gotta be a way that I can still have this in my life. - [Aaron] Yeah, so example of this is you're doing something and you're not recognizing it, and a brother or sister in Christ comes up and says, "Hey, I noticed that you're talking a certain way "or you did this certain thing." And you're like, "Don't judge me, get out of my way." And you immediately feel like you've been judged or wronged or hurt. In reality, you're just getting checked in your spirit and your flesh doesn't like it. - [Jennifer] I also wanna be realistic, most people don't say, "Don't judge me." What they'll do is say, "Oh, okay," and then never talk to that person again. They don't even communicate. - [Aaron] Or say, "Well let's just agree to disagree instead of again, suffering the flesh, humbling yourself and saying, "Maybe there is something I need to grow on." - [Jennifer] Or, "Man, that recognition alone just hurt. "And I'm gonna walk in that for a little bit "and see where God wants to take it." - [Aaron] So I wanna read this, I read this from Wikipedia. It's the definition of hedonism, which by the way, is this idea of pleasure-centered living. Like I'm looking to please all my senses, hedonism. "And it's a school of thought," this is what Wikipedia says, "Hedonism is a school of thought "that argues pleasure and suffering "are the only components of well-being. "Ethical hedonism is the view that combines "hedonism with welfarist ethics, "which claim that what we should do depends exclusively on what effects "the well-being individuals have. "Ethical hedonists would defend "either increasing pleasure or reducing suffering "for all beings capable of experiencing them "or just reducing suffering." So think about that. It's as long as I'm not suffering, I'm happy. Or I wanna be pleasured, and if I can't have pleasure I just don't wanna suffer. Now I want everyone listening to think about that 'cause we have areas in our life, Jennifer and I, we were talking about this that we think this way. Like, "Oh, I'm good with all this as long as "I don't have to go without food for a day." Or "As long as I'm not gonna feel this pain over here "or I'm not gonna have to say no to my flesh in this area." Right, we all have this level of pleasure-centered focus or at least avoidance of suffering. That's what this idea of hedonism is. - [Jennifer] Basically if we're living to pleasure our five senses we can't possibly be pleasing or pleasuring God. - [Aaron] Exactly because he might ask us to do something that doesn't feel good. Right? - Yeah. - [Aaron] And so a litmus test is for us to ask ourselves in those situations when we feel like we're just, it doesn't feel good, something's going on, we're having this emotional, which I'm about to talk about, we can ask ourselves, am I trying to avoid letting my flesh suffer a little bit? Am I trying to avoid saying no to my flesh? - [Jennifer] Okay, so the next one is passions and when I think of the word, passions, I immediately think of things that I'm either passionate about or people who've said-- - [Aaron] It's usually a positive thing, yeah. - [Jennifer] "I'm just a passionate person." But yeah, it's usually a positive thing or maybe it has to do with extracurricular activities or something like that. But why don't you share more about that? - [Aaron] So passions, the definition of passions in the dictionary is essentially uncontrolled or emotional outbursts. It's this like passion outburst of anger, which the Bible says wrath is not good, "The wrath of man does not produce "the righteousness of God." And wrath is an uncontrolled, emotional outburst. Or uncontrollable sadness, or uncontrollable joy or happiness. I'm just trying to get whatever emotions these are, out. And what this idea is is someone who lives purely off their emotions. Like, "Oh, I'm not happy, so things are wrong." But you know what, you know how many stories there are in the Bible of people that, like a lot of David's songs or him not happy. Now they still end joyfully 'cause he knows who his Lord is and his Redeemer, but he's in the muck and the mire. He's in a cave, cold and scared, the emotional, passionate person who lives by their emotions would say, "David was doing something wrong because he wasn't happy," but that's not true. David was right where God had him, he was doing what he could do in God's will. Now I'm not saying emotions are bad. God's given us all of these things. Our senses are good things. Our passions, our emotions are good things, but these are fleshly things, meaning if they're the things that drive us and dictate us then the Spirit of God is not. - [Jennifer] Yeah, I was just gonna say if someone's motivated to maintain a certain emotion or are drawn out of their emotions to act, they can't serve their emotions and serve God. - [Aaron] A good example in Scripture says, "Be angry and do not sin." - [Jennifer] So that's a perfect example of having and experiencing an emotion-- - [Aaron] But not letting it control you. - [Jennifer] But not letting it control you and not acting out of it. - [Aaron] Yeah, you know how hard it is to love someone who is harming you or doing you wrong? But that's what Scripture calls us to do. - Because Christ did it. - Because Christ did it. So, there's things that our emotions will want us to do, wrath, outbursts, laughter, like lots of things. But God wants the Spirit to be in control, not our emotions. And I wanna add to this, often, so based on the sensuality things when our five senses aren't being met with what they want that's when our emotions react. I'm hungry, you know the whole term, "I'm hangry." So you're having a sense, one of your five senses not being taken care of. - [Jennifer] Your emotions heighten. - [Aaron] And so you let your emotions go to get what you want, right? That is not being in self-control. That is not walking by the Spirit, that's walking in the flesh. And so I broke these down all like this to show us that this way of being is not the way the believer should be. That doesn't mean we're not gonna fall into our emotions at times, we're not to be these emotionless robots. What happens is God's given us a way to walk in the Spirit, even amidst the heaviest emotional times. Like sadness and brokenness and fear, and we can walk in the Spirit in those things. - [Jennifer] Yeah, how do you submit those to God and walk righteously amidst feeling those really deep things? - [Aaron] So it all goes back to the, men, this is a universal doctrine that it doesn't matter where you're at, it doesn't matter what you're going through, God has given you the freedom and through the Spirit of God to rise above those things and to appropriate those emotions where they belong. In your sadness to go to God and weep before him. And he says, "I've bottled up every tear." So knowing that we can actually run to the Father, "I'm so angry right now, God, take my anger from me. "Show me how to not be angry with my wife, or my husband." - [Jennifer] My kids. - [Aaron] Or we can just handle it ourselves and let's just take that emotion, and let's just-- - Run with it. - Run with it. And what usually happens, and everyone's thinking about those things when they've let their emotions run, we regret it every time. And we look back and we say, "Well, that wasn't godly, "that was not what Christ would've done." - [Jennifer] Or "Man, I just wish I was different." When we can be, it's just the choices we're making. - [Aaron] So I wanna go on to the next part, which-- - [Jennifer] Feels like an obvious one. - Right, drunkenness. - Drunkenness. Well, it's not just intoxication though. - [Aaron] Well, you're right. - [Jennifer] It is, when you look up the definition, drunkenness, it's being intoxicated by something like alcohol. - [Aaron] Right, and this is clearly talking about no believer should get drunk. - [Jennifer] The Bible talks too much about being sober minded. - [Aaron] And not being drunk specifically. So I do wanna clarify I'm not saying this doesn't mean you can go get drunk. No believer should be getting drunk ever. - [Jennifer] All of these things mean what they are. They also have-- - Deeper spiritual meanings. - Deeper spiritual meanings that we can apply to address our sinful nature. - [Aaron] So let's talk about what drunkenness is. Yes, it's being drunk on alcohol or some sort of drug. Your mind, it's overtaken by something else, which is essentially what drunkenness is. You're allowing a substance, an external force to take over your flesh, that's what drunkenness is. You drink enough alcohol, what happens? The Bible talks about it, you start saying things you would never say out loud, you start acting a way you would never act. - [Jennifer] I always say that or associated it with the word uncontrolled, like that person's uncontrolled right now, but I never considered the aspect of it you actually being controlled by that thing that you just ingested. - [Aaron] Yeah, and I'll give an example, Proverbs 20, verse one says, "Wine is a mocker." So it's saying that the alcohol has an influence to cause you to mock. "Strong drink a brawler." Wants you to fight. All of these things are very fleshly things. "And whoever is led astray by it is not wise." So now nowhere in Scripture does it say you're not allowed to drink. Now some people will take it that way, and we're talking about alcohol so I'm just bringing it up. But 100% absolutely no believer should be getting drunk on anything. But the next thing I'm gonna talk about. And it says, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, "and whoever is led astray," so I've given myself over to this substance, this thing to now do what it wants with me. Like not as if it's a real person, but we have these basic, all these things that are talking about the flesh, we have these basic ways of being in the deep parts of us. - [Jennifer] It's the way he designed us, like he designed us to-- - [Aaron] But he wants it under control. Not let go of. And so the other part I wanna say is in Ephesians five, 18 it says, "Do not get drunk "with wine," again there's a direct command, don't get drunk with wine, "For that is debauchery. "But be filled with the Spirit." So it's saying, don't let your flesh go by letting it be overtaken with wine, alcohol, other substances, but be filled with the Spirit of God. - [Jennifer] This also shows that deeper spiritual meaning of what we're trying to show here when you talk about drunkenness because drunken by the Spirit, that sounds weird, but it's because of that deeper meaning that we're talking about. - [Aaron] And at the base level of what drunkenness is, it's literally the removal of the natural functions that God's put in us, that inhibition in us, that conscience, that ability and restraint that is naturally in us to like, maybe there's something I wanna say, but I'm not gonna say it 'cause that's not appropriate. You're drunk and it just comes out of your mouth. So what you're doing is you're living in the sensuality way you want all your senses met, you're living with your emotions and then you wanna be drunk and you want to release the natural built in barriers that God's given you to protect you from doing or saying-- - [Jennifer] Sinful things. - [Aaron] Yeah, things that don't honor you, don't honor others, don't honor God. And so again, it's like this, I wanna just let it all out, I don't want any control, it's the exact opposite of self-control. It's no control. Which then leads us into the awkward one, orgies. - [Jennifer] Which everybody's thinking sexual experience. - [Aaron] Which again, it means that. - [Jennifer] It is, but it also means more than that. - [Aaron] Right, if you look at orgies at the base idea of what an orgy is, it's overindulgence. So all the things we just talked about, it's doing all of it without restraint. - [Jennifer] Yeah, no barriers, no limitations, as long as you want, as much as you want. - [Aaron] Yeah, oh and that was another good donut. - [Jennifer] That was a good box of donuts. - [Aaron] Those two boxes of donuts were amazing, right, but of course I would feel gross after that. Or alcohol, like alcoholics, they don't restrain themselves. And we're talking about these things that go in the mouth, but think about anything. Anything in your life that you don't want any restraint on. - [Jennifer] So it's overindulgence, and it's giving into your flesh, and you're never satisfied, you're never satiated. - [Aaron] Yeah, when you're in the flesh-- - It's never enough. - The flesh never has enough. You know who says this, Solomon says it in Ecclesiastes one, eight. It says, "All things are full of weariness, "a man cannot utter it. "The eye is not satisfied with seeing, "nor the ear filled with hearing." - [Jennifer] Okay so just that made me think of the porn industry. They get hooked at an early age, but then it's not enough to gratify what their eye is seeing, so it gets worse and worse, deeper and deeper into these things that are just wicked. - [Aaron] And worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. - [Jennifer] And still yet never satisfied. - [Aaron] And this is like the exact opposite of what Christ wants for us. In that verse it says, "The time has past that suffices," means we've done enough of this. Literally he's saying that we have freedom from this unsatisfied, never ending cycle. - [Jennifer] Well, what did Christ say to the woman at the well? - [Aaron] Oh, yeah, so the woman comes to him and she asks for water and he says, "If you would ask me I would have given you water "that you would never thirst again." And she says, "Where's this water, give it to me." - [Jennifer] So it's this contrast of allow your flesh to rule you and never be satisfied or walk in the Spirit and be who you are in Christ with freedom and be completely satisfied. - [Aaron] Right, and Christ, God wants us to be satisfied in him alone. And so when we walk in the flesh, like this idea of orgies it's like I just wanna go somewhere that's gonna give me everything I want and as much of it as I can. And this is not the way of the believer. We are satisfied, completely satisfied in Christ. And so this was a historical note, I saw when looking up this idea of orgies, which I did very carefully by the way. - [Jennifer] Which if you think about that. - [Aaron] Yeah, and historically the word comes from, it's a Greek word, orgia or something like that, but what it was was it was a ritual, secret rites used to worship a Roman god. And the Roman god was the god of grapes and vines and caused men to be crazy. So it's this idea of when we have this way of being, we're like, "I just wanna go and I wanna throw "all my inhibition out, and I wanna drink, "and I wanna eat, and I wanna have fun, "and I want my five senses pleased, "and I wanna just be happy." You're literally worshiping something other than God. That's this idea when you walk in the flesh in this way. So we're gonna go to the next one, there's two more, we're almost done. Drinking parties, and this idea of drinking parties is exactly what it says, these parties that you're just going to get drunk. - [Jennifer] Again, in reading the list in Scripture I skip over 'cause I go, "Well, I'm not doing that." - [Aaron] But the deeper idea is parties meaning multiple, meaning many others, meaning you're inviting others to partake in all of this way of being. That's the way that the people that don't know God, the Bible says, "Don't associate with the wicked "for they can't even seep until they've caused bloodshed "or until they've caught people in their snare." Like these ideas of drawing others into the same way of living fleshly. - [Jennifer] And it can be as simple as you're sitting in a room full of friends and you start gossiping. The invitations can be subtle, but I think that the reason people do it is because they don't want to do it alone, they don't want to be alone in their sin. They're seeking approval so if I can get so and so to do it along with me, then there's this sense of approval that it's okay. Or maybe wrestling with the shame and guilt that comes with sin that you wanna forget about and so you have others join in, I mean there's a lot of different reasons why. - [Aaron] Well, I'll give a great example in my own life, and it's something I'm not proud of, but when I was deep into pornography, and I would meet new men in churches there were pastors or they were like older or wiser and deep down inside either I thought, "There's no way that he's not addicted to pornography "just like me," or I hoped that he was because I didn't want to be the only one. And I thought, "No, every single one "of these guys does too." - It's so broken. - It's so broken. So in my mind, this drinking parties idea, this idea of like, "Oh, we're in this together. "He's a sinner like me and he does the same things as I do, "and I actually hoped he did." - [Jennifer] I think this is a good time to caution us to evaluate ourselves. Are we inviting others to partake in sin that maybe we're not recognizing as sin or we've pushed away that conviction from the Holy Spirit and let's ask God this week, "What areas of my life "have I been inviting people to partake "in with me that aren't righteous?" - [Aaron] Well, it first takes that self-evaluation of like, "God, is there anything "in me that you want out of me?" A good example in the marriage, do you remember when we were going through financial stuff? I would let you spend the way we probably shouldn't spend knowing that it would let me spend the way I wanted to spend. - [Jennifer] Right, 'cause then when you would request something I would have to say yes. - [Aaron] Because I'd be like, "Well, I let you get your thing." And essentially we were just pulling each other down. - [Jennifer] That's really good. So in marriage that's often where the invitation starts. - [Aaron] Keyword, drinking party. Don't invite me, just kidding. - [Jennifer] Don't invite me. - [Aaron] Last thing, lawless idolatry. Everything we just walked through is lawless idolatry and here's why. It's self-worship. - [Jennifer] Yeah, how I feel, what I want-- - [Aaron] Is god. - [Jennifer] Well, it should be God. - [Aaron] No, what I was saying is what you feel and what you want is god, is your god. - [Jennifer] Right, is your god. But what we should be saying is-- - [Aaron] "God, what you want." "God, do you want me to be hungry right now?" And I keep talking about these physical things because this is the idea. - [Jennifer] Well, that's where it starts. - [Aaron] We are to be spiritual people. Jesus told the woman at the well that same story. She's talking about where they worship 'cause she was a Samaritan, he's a Jew and he says, "There's gonna be a day "that you will neither worship there or here, "but my people worship me in spirit and in truth." Not worshiping in passions and sensuality and as Jude says, and that happens even in the church. I'm gonna worship God with my senses, and if I don't sense God and feel God, and my senses aren't being met and pleasured by the Spirit of God then I must be far from God. But you know what, there's many people in the Bible that were in the pit. I think of Paul, and he's singing worship songs, naked and cold in prison. In that moment most people would be like, "I don't feel close to God. "He's not helping me, this doesn't feel good." But Paul knew exactly who his savior was and he knew that what he was dealing with as he says in Scripture, he says, "For I have ascertained that my current suffering "is nothing to be compared with the coming glory." What that means is that this temporary suffering, the little bit of saying no in my flesh, the little bit of pain that I feel, the little bit of depraving of my own desires for the sake of God's will and God's thing that he wants done in my life and in others is so little to be compared with the glory that I'm gonna experience when he returns. - [Jennifer] Which is a hopeful message for us as Christians. We should hear that and be like, "Yes, we're in agreeance here." We should be willing to suffer, and this is why suffering in the flesh is good for us. - [Aaron] Yeah, and a lot of people don't like talking about suffering, but this again is a universal doctrine that Christians should understand and walk in that my flesh does not get to win in my life. - [Jennifer] And when we feel those convictions from the Holy Spirit going day to day, whatever it might be, when you don't tell yourself no, you're putting yourself in a place of worship that you should not be in. You're idolizing yourself, you're saying, "God, I'm more important that you." - [Aaron] My comfort's more important that your will. My pleasure's more important that your Word. And so each one of these is like this progress of worshiping self verses Creator. Worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. My comfort, my pleasures, my senses are much more important than what God's doing in my life. - [Jennifer] A dangerous place to be. - [Aaron] And a good example of this is the reason why many people have a hard time getting out of debt or quitting certain addictions or making life changes is because that's too difficult for my flesh to handle, even though God's like, "But I'm gonna "give you the strength to do it." - [Jennifer] Yeah, I think too, just to shed a little bit more perspective on this idea of suffering, I think sometimes we only go so far to see what we would suffer in the midst of saying no to our flesh. So like it's that little bit of-- - [Aaron] "I tried." - [Jennifer] Yeah, but we see what suffering equals when we say no to our flesh, but we don't look beyond that to see what suffering looks like when we don't say no to our flesh, the consequences, the hurt, the pain, the death, the sin that comes. - [Aaron] The shame. - [Jennifer] Because of the choices that we make. And that's what all of this, of what we're talking about today comes down to choice. You're gonna choose to walk in the Spirit or you're gonna choose to gratify the desires of the flesh. - [Aaron] And you know what believer, you're listening to this? - [Jennifer] You have been set free. - [Aaron] Yeah, you're not a slave to sin and death. We can choose to walk in the Spirit that God's given us. He dwells in us, giving life to our mortal bodies. How amazing is that? So this isn't a go suffer and find your righteousness through just self-depravity and self-abasement. That's not what we're talking about. There are some faiths and some religions that believe that. If you just make yourself suffer enough, you'll be righteous. Now the point is we're already righteous, and the way a righteous person walks with the Spirit of God is we don't gratify the desires of our flesh. And when we do, we recognize it, we repent, and we say, "Thank you, Lord, for forgiving me. "And give me your power to walk better next time "to beat that thing that is in my life "because you have beat it on the cross." - [Jennifer] Amen, so here's the charge for us this week and forever. And it's that first part of that verse that you started us off with there and it's, "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh," our Christ, our Lord, our Savior suffered in the flesh, "Arm yourself with the same way of thinking." We have to think like him. - [Aaron] This current fleshly body we live in is temporary and the simplest way to put this is Jesus says, "Take up your cross and follow me." The cross is the instrument of the death of our flesh. So let's crawl up on that cross and let's take it with us and let's ask the Holy Spirit, "Lord, teach me. "Teach me how to say no to my flesh "when it craves things that are in opposition to you." Some of us struggle with pride, I just wanna throw that one in there, that's a flesh thing. That's pride, that's the flesh wanting to be elevated and recognized, rather than humbled and God being recognized. So we always end in prayer. Jennifer, why don't you pray for us? - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for your Word and how it cuts us to the heart. Thank you for teaching us through your Word. We pray your Word would continue to transform us as we learn it and choose to walk out all that you've commanded us to. We pray we would be people who recognize parts of our hearts that need to change, sin that needs to be repented of, motivations that are not pure, and actions that do not reflect your ways for the purpose of repentance and reconciliation and growth may your will be done in us and through us, may your light shine brightly through our marriages as we encourage one another to draw closer to you. In Jesus's name, amen. - [Aaron] Amen, we love you guys, and we thank you for joining us this week. Please consider leaving us a review and a star rating. You just gotta go to the bottom of your podcast app and tap one of those stars and leave a review, we love those, and they help other people find the episodes, find the podcast. And also don't forget to get the free Marriage Prayer Challenge, MarriagePrayerChallenge.com. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Show notes & links available here. In this episode, I'm speaking to Dr. Jennifer Levin, a marriage and family therapist who specializes in health crises or transitions, especially related to traumatic grief and loss. We discuss ways to support others, particularly children, and promote growth after trauma. Big Ideas Traumatic grief is an unexpected, sudden loss that people experience. Sudden, devastating events can cause a great deal of grief, trauma, and stress. People experience post-traumatic growth when their life changes significantly for the better due to the experience they had with the trauma. There are four areas wherein people experience post-traumatic growth: deeper relationships increased personal strength positive spiritual changes stronger appreciation for life in general Kids and adults react differently to grief and trauma. Kids tend to float in and out, whereas adults may get stuck in deep sadness and experience more of the traumatic symptoms. The first thing to do for children after a traumatic loss is to assure safety and reestablish some normalcy and a sense of routine and structure. Helpful tools for kids are sensory-based activities, mindfulness skills, guided imagery, and visualizations. We can help them learn how to take control of their situation and give them positive feedback and praise when they use a great coping skill. Make sure children are exposed to positive relationships with other supportive adults in their lives. Especially in the case of loss, it is important for families to keep talking about their feelings. Memory Bowl Tip: keep a bowl and a stack of index cards in an accessible place. Any time you have a memory of the person, the dog, the loved one who has died, you write it down on the card and put it in the bowl. Then, when you're having a tough grieving day or on an occasion when the family is together, everyone can read the memories that are in the bowl. This is a great way to keep memories and family times together alive. Quotes Jennifer: "It's pretty amazing watching someone come in right after a loss, working through them to address both the trauma and grief and then having them say, 'Oh my goodness, I think I've grown in (this way)' and to be able to focus on that." Audrey: "Unfortunately, we are inevitably going to face grief of some kind. It's hopeful to think that it doesn't have to lead to disaster." Audrey: "Many of us have been blindsided by the experiences that kids share with us in the camp or school setting, where they share something really hard that they have gone through." Jennifer: "Right after an immediate loss that's been traumatic, the first thing to do is to assure safety, establish some normalcy and a sense of routine when the world feels chaotic and out of control." Jennifer: "We see behavioral problems come up, problems with sleep, academics, friends, when there is no routine or structure or normalcy." Jennifer: "Containment may not necessarily lead to post-traumatic growth, but more stabilization, which is the first thing we have to do before we can start addressing trauma and grief." Jennifer: "Post-traumatic growth is something that happens over a significant period of time and adults can play a huge role in decreasing the chances that a child will have longterm difficulties and increasing the chances for post-traumatic growth." Jennifer: "Sometimes we have to say, 'I'm not sure how this is going to play out in the future, but right now you are safe. I got you. You're okay. I love you. All of your needs can be met right now.' This gives them a really strong foundation for growth." Jennifer: "One thing that goes without saying is parents and adults have to take care of themselves first before they are able to give this to kids. Kids are able to tell when it's inauthentic, insincere, and when the parents are running on empty." Jennifer: "Positive relationships with adults help foster post-traumatic growth. If it's not a parent, then its a teacher, a coach, a religious figure." Jennifer: "Kids and adults react differently to grief and trauma. I think it's wonderful that kids can float in and out, in and out, and when they're in the moment, the feelings are intense, difficult, scary and overwhelming. But again, with the right support and encouragement, they're going to transition out and be okay." Jennifer: "We as adults have such a role in teaching our kids how to express themselves, how to get these feelings out, and then how to cope with them." Audrey: "Usually if a child is grieving about something, usually the adults who are closest to them are also grieving. Getting outside help is so important, even if your child appears to be fine. For them to be aware that these feelings may come up at any time and there are resources for them. That's a really important thing." Jennifer: "Grief is such a unique experience for every person, every family. Everybody in a family grieves differently. I'm really big on acknowledgment, an adult acknowledging that they're sad or grieving, that they're fearful--that's the very first step." Jennifer: "Acknowledge the pain. I think it's great for your kids to see you cry. It's great for them to see you express emotion and for you to say, 'Mom is really sad right now, but I'm okay. You're okay and we're going to be okay.' Then talk about that." Jennifer: "Checking in is important because it gives the message, 'I'm here if you want to talk and if you don't, that's okay.' So what you do is monitor other things: Are they socializing with their friends? Are they doing well in school? Are they sleeping? Are they eating? Are they doing extracurricular activities? When you start to see issues there, then that's a red flag. Even though they're not talking about the grief, it's definitely impacting them." Jennifer: "We grieve the way we live. If we're someone who doesn't share our feelings very often, then when we experience grief we are not all of a sudden going to become someone who talks about all of our feelings." Audrey: "Keep talking about the person. Some people think it's better not to bring the person up but the last thing that someone who is grieving wants is for people to forget the person who was so important to them."   Links More information on Dr. Jennifer Levin's private practice can be found at therapyheals.com. Visit her new site: fromgrieftogrowth.com. You will find her free mini video course, 3 Tips for Surviving Traumatic Grief. Dr. Jennifer R. Levin specializes in working with adults, adolescents, and teens experiencing traumatic grief and sudden loss.  In 2000 Jennifer received her doctorate from UCLA in public health focusing on the needs of cancer patients at the end of life.  She has served as the executive director of Hospice of Pasadena and volunteered with the American Cancer Society and the Wellness Community.  Jennifer provides continuing education training, consultation, and mobile grief services to schools and community-based organizations experiencing bereavement and loss.  Jennifer is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a private practice in Pasadena where she works with clients living with chronic and terminal illness, bereavement and complicated loss and traumatic death.  She facilitates support groups in traumatic grief, spousal loss, teen grief and also specializes in post-traumatic growth. Related If you enjoyed this episode, check out: Ep. 112: Helping Teens Exposed to Trauma with Ruth Gerson Ep. 93: Teaching Healthy Relationship Skills to Improve Lives Ep. 80: The Emotionally Healthy Child with Maureen Healy Ep. 117: Raising Good Humans

Zach speaks with Jennifer Brown, founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, and they take a deep dive into exploring what diversity and inclusion means. They also talk about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and Jennifer shares a bit about her latest two books. Check out Jennifer's books! They're titled "Inclusion" and "How to Be an Inclusive Leader."Connect with Jennifer on the following platforms: Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInPut your name on the mailing list at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know what we do, man. [laughs] Y'all know. Listen, man, we try to drop--come on, Sound Man. Give me them air horns right here. [air horns sfx]. More fire for your head top, and look, today is no different. I ain't even gonna get into a huge, long kind of, like, intro before I get into the interview, 'cause our interview was kind of long, but I really want y'all to hear all of it. I interviewed someone who is a strong--seriously, like, one of the leaders within the D&I space when you talk about, like, presenting content around intersectionality, diversity, inclusion. Her name is Jennifer Brown. She's a facilitator. She's a public speaker. She's a consultant. She's an educator. She has a background in change management, so there's a lot of symbiosis between the both of us, and we had a really dope discussion just about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and then we had a conversation--like, kind of a meta discussion about the D&I space as an industry. If y'all remember--this was, like, way back in Season 1--we had Amy C. Waninger, and then we had Drew, A.K.A. Very White Guy, on the show, and Drew talked a little bit about the--, like, D&I as a business, right, and kind of, like, the capitalistic or corporate nature of D&I and, like, what that looks like, and we had a conversation about that too. It was really interesting. So anyway, what you're gonna hear next is the discussion between Jennifer Brown and myself. She's great people, definitely can't wait to have her back on the show. Make sure y'all check out the show notes. You can look and see all of her information, including her latest two books, okay? So make sure y'all check it out, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.[pause]Zach: Jennifer, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Jennifer: Oh, thanks. I'm doing great. Trying to stay cool in this July.Zach: Man, it is hot out here.Jennifer: Yeah. Global warming. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] For real. Look, I gave a brief intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Jennifer: Of course, yeah. I--let's see. I'm an author. I'm a keynoter. I'm a CEO and an owner of a consulting business, all of which is focused on building more inclusive workplaces for all kinds of talent to thrive, and it's a passionate, personal mission that I have because I've been out since I was 22, and I'm in my 40s now, but the workplace was a place where I couldn't really bring my full self to work. And I want to say it wasn't just being LGBTQ. I mean, the workplace has all sorts of inclusiveness problems when it comes to people like, you know, us, and, you know, most people actually. Anyone that's not a certain mold, and so as somebody who has--I have a master's degree in opera, believe it or not. I came to New York to be an opera singer, and that did not work out.Zach: Wow.Jennifer: Yeah, I know. [laughs] It's crazy. Luckily I reinvented as a corporate trainer, because it's all this--it's like being on the stage, you know, and connecting with audiences. It's just the topic is different. So I reinvented into that field, which remains really my field to this day. So we're really--we're a strategy and training company, and we're working across the Fortune 1,000, I would say, on a daily basis. My team is all over the country. They're amazing. They're so talented at what they do. They have a lot more patience for client work than I do. [laughs] And yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but I've been a consultant in the trenches for a long time, and I'm actually really thrilled now to kind of be more living the keynote and author life. I just--I like it a lot. I love performing. I love big audiences. I like the challenge of thinking on my feet. I like having to write books on this topic and figure out, like, "What does the world need me to write next, and how do I take what I hear and learn and put it in a way that's digestible for people?" Because it's really--it's kind of, like, a life-or-death situation from an inclusion perspective, and I deeply feel that, for myself and many, many others.Zach: Wow. Well, thank you for that. Awesome. I'm already--like, my shoulders are kind of bouncing up and down. This is gonna be a dope conversation.Jennifer: Woo! Yeah. [both laugh]Zach: So today we're talking about inclusive leadership, and before we get too deep into it, can we get some definitions on these terms? Like, from your point of view. Diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. 'Cause in a lot--in your content and in your IP, both written and your presentations, like, you use these terms a lot, and frankly your content is centered around these terms. For our audience, I'd love it if we could just, like, level-set what these things actually mean.Jennifer: Yes, and you need to consider the history of the conversation. So in the corporate and workplace context, diversity is really--has been traditionally the "who," right? The demographics, the representation in your workforce. Typically it's [counted with?] gender, right? Which is where it started, and race and ethnicity. It wants to count LGBTQ and people with disabilities, but, you know, a lot of those folks can hide who they are, right? We are very good at hiding who we are and not checking boxes. So diversity has really been that representation, the mix, the complexion of the workplace [with a small C?]. And then inclusion really is the "how." So "How do I make that mix work?" You know? "If diversity is the "who" in the mix, how do I make the mix work?" To quote my friend Tyrone Studemeyer, who is, like, a great chief diversity officer. He always uses that example. In fact, he brings a glass of milk on stage and pours in chocolate sauce, and then he stirs it, and he has this bit that he does. So it's making the mix work, and honestly's that's really where behaviors come into play. And so it's how--once you have that talent around the table, how do you make them want to stay? How do you include them, and how do you make them feel that they're valued? And so inclusion is the how and the behaviors. And then intersectionality, something totally different. It is the mix, I guess, of diverse identities that make some of us who we are and kind of present unique challenges. Traditionally defined by Kimberle Crenshaw, of course, it's the mix of multiple stigmatized identities that one person may carry. So why that's important is that I think, you know, anyone who looks at gender issues, for example, as a white women's topic, is not taking into consideration how women of color are impacted differently, how being an LGBTQ woman may mean that you're not only dealing with your gender and all the headwinds that come along with that, but you're dealing with the headwinds relating to sexual orientation. Or say you have, you know, a non-binary gender expression, or you are a woman of color and some of those things at the same time, or a woman with a disability. So it just goes on and on, and that's a very helpful thing for the rest of the world, I think, to help people understand the levels of--and I would use privilege with a small P. I know that word sets some people off, you know, but I think we have to be realistic about some of us walking through the world feeling a lot safer and a lot more protected, a lot more supported. You know, right? Like, a lot more--that others are more comfortable with us because they're relatively more familiar with us, and the sort of further you get away from I guess the straight white male norm that is, like it or not, the whole of the top leadership in the business world. The further you get from that, I think the more difficulty you have in kind of seeing yourself in workplaces, in being supported, grown, invested in, welcomed, proactively fostered. You know, all of the things that really, like, pull you up in an organization. So, you know, when you're different in multiple ways, it's kind of difficult to ever feel that you're in that--in the place you should be in the machine that is the workplace. So, you know, this is where people fall out. They quit. They can't stand it anymore. [laughs] You know, they go and become entrepreneurs, which is great, you know, but sad for corporations and large employers because, of course, you know, you're bleeding out all of your diverse talent because your culture is sort of something that people can't stand. That's a problem. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] No, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting, right, because I was just having a conversation with a couple of close friends this morning, and I was talking about the fact that a lot of times, you know, when we talk about D&I in the most common contexts, it almost feels like some--like, really a competition between white men and [white women] for number one, and then kind of everybody else falls to the wayside. Right? Like, we don't necessarily have, like--I don't know if I'm necessarily always hearing, like, truly intersectional discussions around identity. I don't know, and I don't know if black women are often centered in those discussions. Of course in the past couple years we've seen, like, more and more content come out about it, so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but at the same time--Jennifer: [laughs] But you're right.Zach: [laughs] I mean, here's a great example, right? So I think it was--yep, Indeed. So Indeed just dropped a commercial, and there was a--the setting was, like, a board room, right, and in the board room, a white man was in the front and he was getting a promotion, right? And, like, the boss was shaking his hand, and everybody was clapping, and then there was a white woman, and she was just kind of standing there, and it was clearly--like, by the framing, right, of the commercial, that she was passed over for this promotion and that the white man got the promotion over her, right? And I was like, "Okay." And so then she looks down at her phone, and she kind of smirks because she gets a notification she's getting an interview, you know, somewhere else, right?Jennifer: [laughs] Oh, my gosh.Zach: Right? So she's like, "I'm leaving," and then it said, "Indeed." You know? I was like, "Okay, cool." So great commercial, but what's interesting about that commercial was behind the white woman--and I don't believe they did this intentionally, but maybe they did--and if they did, yo, they are super cold--but there was a black woman and a black man out of focus right behind them. And so it was, like, super interesting.Jennifer: [sighs] Oh, goodness. Wow. Oh, somebody needs to give that feedback. I'm sure they've heard about it already. [both laugh]Zach: But, like, the idea that a lot of times we talk about D&I, right, it's often centered around gender. We're not having really authentic discussions outside of that. And so a question for you - you know, in your book "Inclusion: Diversity, the New Workplace & the Will to Change," you discussed the nuances of privilege. And you just talked about lower-case privilege, lower-case P privilege. And to make an effort not to vilify white men who have, quote, "seemingly won the privilege lottery." Is it possible to manage the egos of leaders who are in the majority while also having frank and accountable discussions about empowering black and brown professionals or just non-white professionals in the workplace? You know, in your work, what does that process look like? To establish trust for those discussions.Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, that is really the work, and it's--I think it's, like, the third rail, honestly. It's funny - being in the LGBTQ community, there's a level of--strangely, a level of comfort and acceptance of talking about being "I'm a proud ally," you know, or putting that rainbow sticker on your desk or in your email signature. And it's fascinating to me because--by the way, the LGBTQ conversation is also not properly intersectional, right? So there's privileged dynamics playing out in my--this community. I was going to say "my" community. One of my communities, you know, that women's voices aren't well-heard. People of color and the LGBTQ community, trans people, are not well-heard and are not represented in leadership positions in the workplace when it comes to affinity groups and things. So each community has its kind of diversity within its diversity challenges. [laughs] So I just wanted to make that point, because--I often say, "Just because you carry a marginalized identity, or even two, does not make you an inclusive leader."Zach: That's so true.Jennifer: Like, I wish it were true, but it's not, and it's been proven to me over and over again that, you know, I've made that assumption, and I've kind of been wrong. Like, I've been shocked by what people say. So, like, these--like, a lack of that intersectional lens and that inclusive lens can live in all of us, by the way. Elitism and, you know, that blindness and bias. Unchecked. Anyway, that's one point I wanted to make. So how do we center more black and brown voices when the leadership of so many companies--and when you say they are the majority, we always have to clarify. I say majority in leadership positions, because if you look at the aggregate in most companies, of course, women are the majority. Zach: That's absolutely correct, yeah.Jennifer: Right, and then a lot of ethnic diversity lives in different functional areas of the business and, you know, whatever, right? But it just totally thins out, like, when you go up the org chart, right? So the problem is all the power lies with a sort of very homogeneous group, and so the onus is on that group to acknowledge that the world is more and more black and brown, right? That they have to build that confidence and cross those bridges of understanding, and they have to know how to build trust with their workforce. Both current and future, by the way, which is most likely not going to look like them. And then they've got to do it in such a way that they--that then their employee and their leadership base looks like the world that they serve, which is increasingly female, right? Think about the buying decisions. Think about the exploding buying power of the black community. The LGBTQ community is now a trillion-dollar buying power. I mean, it's massive. So any brand that's worth anything, and any leader that's worth anything, must look at this, should look at this, and say, you know, "My demographic group--maybe it was okay for me not to understand what keeps people in the organization I'm a part of or keeps people on my team or how to be a good colleague and sort of step out of my shoes and think about what the other person's experience is like, but I better search and pay attention to this." So my argument is always I throw the business case to people, the demographic argument to people. Sometimes it's a moral argument. Sometimes somebody, you know, has kids of a different race than they are. Sometimes they have lots of daughters. Like, sometimes, you know, they have a unique view on all of this, and so when you, you know, [see?] somebody that looks like a white, straight guy, you know, you just never know what their diversity story might be, and I've been just shocked and reminded that, you know, I can--I can walk in a room and people assume I know nothing about this topic, you know? And that's happened to me. I've been on the receiving end of that. And there are things I don't know, for sure, but I desperately want people to listen to me and somehow kind of wedge my way in and make them listen and convince them and all of those things. So being LGBTQ helps with that. So I'm this interesting hybrid of, you know, being of an identity that people are more comfortable with, like, based on maybe what they see, but then coming out and challenging them to the point where, like, you can hear a pin drop when I do that, and that's kind of--let me tell you, it's pretty uncomfortable when you're standing there in front of, like, 1,000 mostly men in, like, light blue shirts and khakis. You're like, "How is this gonna go?" [laughs] So it takes--for all of us, you know, I think it takes bravery to show ourselves. For some of us with invisible aspects of diversity, it takes kind of a unique kind of bravery to be like, "No." Like, "Make no mistake, this is actually who I am." And particularly if it's a vulnerable aspect of who you are. It can feel really risky. That could include, like, divulging about a disability or, you know, mental health and addiction issues, or age, you know? There's just this, like, widespread hesitation to bring our full selves to work on so many counts, but when you are black and brown of course the issue can be "I can't opt not to show who I am." Like, "Who I am is often visible," and it will trigger the biases if those are there, right? And so it's a conversation we always have about--it's not the pain Olympics, and that's so important to remember. Like, that it's not--it's not a race to the--through the oppression hierarchy to say--Zach: Right.Jennifer: Right? Because that's a useless conversation. I think we have to think about, like, what are the--what's the damage that happens when, you know, we feel shame, or we feel compelled to downplay who we are, even if it's very visible to others? And how can we support each other's voices and create that safety for each other? And that's what I think about every day. Like, if I have been given some kind of privilege with a small P [in] several ways that has been totally unearned by me--my obsession is, like, what responsibility and opportunity does that come with? Which is interesting, because I'm in the LGBTQ community, which is so used to needing that allyship, right? We think about--we struggle to bring our full selves and be comfortable, and we hide, you know? And so allies really bring us out, you know? They stand alongside us and say, "Hey, I'll tell your story. I'll be next to you. I'll have your back." It feels amazing to have that, and I know what that feeling feels like, and so I am turning around and, like, trying to do that for others with my people, which often is my lovely, often good-hearted, you know, white, straight male executive clients, you know, to say, "How can we help you bridge to the future?" Because opting out is not--that's not an option, you know? I think--and the more clued-in ones know this, and I think people are mostly feeling just, like, really--like, wanting to do more, very awkward, very afraid. I know in the light of MeToo, just purely a gender conversation, the--you know, that lean-in research that came out a couple months ago that says that, like, male leaders are, like, even more afraid now to be in these one-on-one scenarios with female mentees or colleagues, and it's really discouraging, and it's definitely going in the wrong direction, but I think that fear is probably bigger than just cross-gender. I think that it's just kind of any moves you might make to say, "Hey, I want to be an inclusive leader. I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna say the right thing. I really, really want to be better, but how am I gonna learn this thing that I'm gonna get wrong, and where am I gonna learn it? And how am I gonna know that I'm getting it wrong? And then how am I going to be given a chance to develop better skills?" And that's a very legitimate question. So I think we've got to all kind of give each other a lot of berth and also proactive support these days to learn, and we've got to do that in partnership with each other, because otherwise we're learning in a vacuum, and that's hard to do.Zach: It's so complex though, right? Because it's like--like, there has to be space for grace, and then there also has to--like, on both sides, because there's grace for you to learn--there's grace for me to give you space to learn, but then there's also--there has to be humility for you to receive that learning, right? And then there needs to be empathy on the person who is learning for their teacher in that there is a level of emotional labor, right, that goes into me even talking to you about this at all, right? I had a conversation with some colleagues, like, about a month or so ago, and I was like, "Look." Like, something happened, and, you know, it was an educational discussion, and in part of my conversation I said, "Hey, you know, I don't talk about this because it's exhausting." I said, "But being in these majority-white spaces--just me being here is exhausting," and I explained that to them, and I said, "It's not just me. It's exhausting in some way or form or shape for someone in a minority to engage in majority spaces." Like, it is, and so, like, for the people that are doing the work to educate and train and teach or even partner--like, that's--like, there needs to be some empathy on that part, you know what I mean?Jennifer: Yeah. Well, we talk a lot about compassion fatigue, and I think that--and then us being asked to step forward and represent an entire community and their experience, which you and I know is never gonna be accurate. You're just one person talking about your experience. Zach: Right. Not [?], right.Jennifer: Right, but what you're talking about is something--what I say in my next book, right, "How to Be an Inclusive Leader," is that you need to do 80% of the emotional labor yourself before you ask someone to help you on your journey. Zach: Oh, I love that.Jennifer: It's so important, yes. And so for me, what that looks like is I intentionally consume certain media, for example. I listen to certain podcasts. I watch certain films. I acquaint myself with cultural norms across communities that are not mine, right? And in some cases it's a struggle through some of that media, because that media is not built for you. It's not a conversation for you, right? [both laugh] And I've had white friends, and I talk about, like, a podcast we may love. Like, one I love called "Still Processing." I don't know if you know it.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. "Still Processing" is fire. Shout-out to y'all, yes.Jennifer: Oh, it's so good. So good. And they're queer too. Like, I just love them. I mean, talk about intersectional. They're brilliant. And anyway, I sometimes have a hard time keeping up with it, but also getting all of the cultural references--and sometimes even I will feel, "Gosh, I'm such an outsider, and this is so uncomfortable for me, to try to hang in with the conversation." And then I say to myself--and this is what I say to leaders--"Notice the discomfort, because this is what other people feel every single day in majority-white spaces." Every day of their lives, right? Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, you're uncomfortable for one second, right? Like, get used to it. Like, you should be putting yourself in this discomfort all of the time, because this is the competency. Like, this is the skill that you need to learn so that you get some iota of empathy for what it feels like every single day for other people. The other thing I wanted to say is we just had an LGBTQ--we called it LBTQ. It was just for women actually, so we dropped the G. [laughs] Which was--you know, people can have issues with it, but we dropped the G. It was just meant for Q-identified women. And we had this big conference, and we asked--we had a TON of diversity on the stage, which was my commitment, and we had a couple activists that were trans women of color, and they said, "I will come, but I want you to know, like, Pride is exhausting for me." It was in June. "It's exhausting for me. It's exhausting for me to walk into corporate spaces, to educate, to be that voice on stage, and I'm sort of doing this, but I want you to know it's, like, a lot of labor for me," and I want I guess for all of us that put panels together, for all of us that are speakers and on panels--it was such a learning for me to understand that when you ask someone, you're trying to be inclusive, but it is so seen through this lens of "Oh, I can take the day and go speak at this conference 'cause I work for myself," or, you know, "I'm an activist or an advocate." Like, an activist doesn't always look the same or have the same level of privilege or income. What is the lost income from taking a day out to go into a space you're not comfortable in and educate people about your experience? Like, it was really humbling. And what we ended up doing, by the way--and this may be helpful advice--is for all the speakers, that day we had 30 speakers, we really want to intend that we take up--we have a stipend and honorarium for people who take the time out to come into that space. There's a question of real money, you know, to offset that time and that labor. And again, this was another kind of learning for a lot of privileged people of the privilege that allows them to come in and speak all of the time on things that have a full-time job, you know, that have benefits, you know, that aren't witnessing, you know, the really, really painful reality of certain parts of our community every day. I just thought it was a really interesting demonstration within a marginalized community of sort of the gulf in our experiences, right, even within LBTQ women. So I think being mindful of intersectionality all of the time, it's incumbent--it's incumbent on anybody who has that platform, that voice, that comfort to whatever degree, to ensure spaces are diverse, to ensure voices are elevated, to center stories that aren't our own, and to make sure that those stories are given the proper platform and that people aren't overly requested to give up their time and education. But that means that each white person, each man, you know, when they support gender equality, I would ask, like, "What are you reading? What research do you have under your belt?" Like, "How are you exercising your muscle to show up in allyship, and what are you doing?" And then, and only then, can you ask for tweaks and feedback from people in affected communities. You know, "Did what I say resonate?" "Did the story--did I do this justice?" "Did I use my voice in the right way?" "What more could I have done?" Like, "What feedback would you have for me?" That can be asked, but so much has to be done and earned before that. And then--you know, and then bring somebody in to give you that feedback and make you better, because, you know, without that feedback I can promise you people aren't gonna get better, and they're just gonna keep stumbling, and stumbling is not good for anyone. [laughs] It's humiliating.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. [laughs] The thing about it is there's nothing--so I think the only thing worse than being loud and wrong is being really polished and wrong, right?Jennifer: Ooh, that's interesting.Zach: Right? It's like, you know, you're talking, you got the presentation, and, you know, you got your little clicker, and you got your three points and your--[both laugh] And your pantsuit looks great, but you are wrong.Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. It's in the corporate speak.Zach: Right, it's in the corporate speak, but--Jennifer: People can see through it.Zach: But you're absolutely wrong. And your earlier point about Pride, yeah, and, like, this past year was so big because it was the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, and it's interesting 'cause you talked about--you were talking just a bit about, like, the dissonance there and, like, the emotional labor for everyone who is a minority, but then specifically we're talking about trans activists, and it was so interesting because--I believe it was on the 30th. Like, right at the end of Pride there was a situation at Stonewall Inn where, you know, there was a desire from a trans women to speak up. She wanted to talk a little bit about the day and just reflect, and she was shouted down.Jennifer: No.Zach: Yeah, by gay men who were there in names of, "Hey, we just want to party. We don't want to hear all of that," and then eventually she was able to speak, and she spoke for about 12 minutes, but it was just really interesting. She read the names of the black trans women who died and facts and the disproportionate abuse and oppression that black trans women have and continue to face, and so you're absolutely right. Like, and I think it's incredible. I have yet to have the privilege to directly interview a black trans activist. Like, that's actually a serious [goal] of mine.Jennifer: I can hook you up.Zach: Well, let's do it. Let's talk about that after the interview. For sure.Jennifer: [laughs] Yeah, for sure. So yeah, it's been such a learning for me. And this is why I feel so--the ally energy in me these days, even in the LGBTQ community technically that I'm in, I feel so activated as an--and I don't even want to say, like, "I am an ally," because we're only allies when others give us that--give us that name and that honor, right? But I'll tell you, whether it's me as a cis woman--you know, I spend my time on the keynote stage asking people in the audience, "How many of you know what I mean by sharing our pronouns and why it's important? And how many of you know what cisgender means?" And sharing my identity and coming out as cisgender so that--and sharing my pronouns so that I'm not acting like heterosexuality and cisgenderness is normal, you know? We have to make it visible in order to even point out to people that this--we shouldn't be assuming this is normal, and you shouldn't be walking around every day assuming everybody shares your identity. Like, and we've that. I mean, so many of us have been so comfortable and--you know, I'll share it. You know this statistic probably, but it's so startling that 1 out of every 5 people under 34 is non-cis and non-straight. So 1 out of 5. So as you walk around your life, as you hire people, as you work with teams, as you meet customers, 1 out of 5, and yet the chances are that they're hiding that from you and they're not comfortable for you. So what can you do to say, "Hey, this is a safe place. I am someone that you can bring your whole self to me, around me, and I will see you, and I will be not only just open to it, but I will be embracing of it, and I won't assume that you're like me." You know, "I will give you the chance to self-identify," and I will self-identify. I will be brave in doing that, because, like, I'm not gonna put all the burden on you to talk about your experience, but I'm not gonna remain silent and not talk about mine." It's funny, because I get a lot of questions afterwards. People come up to me and say, "How do I start that conversation with someone?" To say, "Hey, I'm doing my work. I'm trying to learn. I want you to feel comfortable. What would you like me to know?" And we sort of walk through, like, "How do I even start that conversation?" Because people are really--they just don't know how to begin, and they don't know whether it will come across as authentic, and they're worried they're gonna be out of their depth really fast. [laughs] Which, by the way, they will be. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] You're absolutely right, but I think it's the internal getting yourself comfortable with being uncomfortable and being comfortable with being ignorant, and ignorant truly meaning just not knowing, and seeking to learn, right? Like, MLK Jr. talked about this. Like, he was quoted saying something like, "White people, as part of their superiority, think that they have so very little to learn when it comes to--" Like, just race, matters of race, and I think that can be extended and expanded, right? That if you're a part of a majority, a part of a privileged class, it's easy for you to think that you just--you don't need to learn, but being curious, right, and seeking to understand is, like, one of the greatest signs of humility, and really it's endearing. Like, the right people, in my experience--when I come to people and I say, "Hey, I really just want to understand. I want to learn from you. I genuinely want to learn." Those discussions go well, because they--Jennifer: They do.Zach: Right? They go well, because you're humbling yourself to listen and to receive. You talked about the statistics, about 1 in 5 today, [and] I think that really leads me well into the next question. So a good deal of your book discusses the future of work and the role inclusion will play. What are your predictions on how organizations will need to adapt to attract future diverse talent in the next 10 years?Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. Well, they're all, like, woefully behind already and have been. [laughs] It's like the ostrich with its head in the sand. I think, you know, when business is good and the economy is good, it covers--it's like high tide, you know? It covers up a lot of things that low tide reveals. And I think a lot of people are too comfortable. You know, I just think that business leaders in particular--and to your point that you just made, right? If life is working out for me, like economically I'm comfortable, I'm not afraid of, you know, being pulled over, you know, as I'm driving. I'm not afraid for my child in the world. You know, all of those things that are blind spots for some people. You can kind of sail on through life and through your work in being a leader, believe it or not, and not really be held accountable for a lot of these things. People deny that it's an urgent situation, but I see it as a really urgent situation, that the fact that, you know, the number of women and people of color at certain levels in companies--which I'm kind of obsessed with the mid-level, because the mid-level is where people--they're really tired of hanging on, like, white-knuckling it up the pipeline, trying to, you know, get supported, get promoted, get--you know, have somebody take an interest in them, have somebody run interference for them. You know, when you're undermentored and undersupported, and then you're underrepresented as well, and you look around, and you look up, and you don't see anyone that--you know, we say "you've got to see it to be it." You know, you get tired, and it's no wonder to me that the numbers and the representation of anyone who's not a straight white male have been kind of really flatlined, you know? And even the best and most progressive companies are really struggling to hold onto people, to raise them up to the level where I want to see them, right? Which is the executive level, because then they can make all--a whole world of difference, you know? An executive leader can, with one signature, you know, create a policy or address the pay gap, you know? They have so much power. Or hold a customer accountable, or take a stance on a political issue in social media. And so if people can't make up there, and we decide to bail out because it just proves too arduous and we're just, like, physically tired, and we're emotionally tired, and the compassion and fatigue and the emotional labor and all of it, being the spokesperson for an entire community. It becomes too much, and, you know, then we leave and we create our own businesses, which is a great solution, which was, you know, the thing I did. [both laugh] You know, 'cause I was like, "This is not gonna work for me." But that's a loss, because not everybody is set up to be an entrepreneur. You know, you need a lot of capital. You need--we talked about privilege. You know, you need certain things in place in order to make that work, and it's just not tenable for most people. So workplaces have to work for people, for all of us. So the future of work, you know, I get asked a lot about quotas and targets. I personally--I hesitate to say this, like, super publicly because companies are really twitchy about requirements and quotas, and you get a lot of pushback, but I'm honestly--I'm at a point where I feel like if people are left to their own devices change doesn't happen, and if change does happen it's slow and it's not widespread, and it's too slow to make a meaningful difference in the short amount of time we have to really see change.Zach: Absolutely.Jennifer: I mean, I think the house is on fire. [laughs] You know, I think economically people are falling behind. They're not getting promoted. They're therefore missing out on economic growth and opportunity and wealth, and, you know, I'm just not seeing it, when the world is changing so fast and companies are not keeping up with it. And so is the bottom line impacted? Is ROI measured? You know, we really--we have to have, like, an honest conversation about losing customers and clients and people leaving the organization, and companies have to wake up and say, you know, "If we don't do something really serious about this, we're gonna be sitting in the same exact place in 10 years." So, you know, I'm all for the more radical solutions. You know, I think--honestly, I think slates, interview slates, need to have a required number of women on them and a required number of people with diverse ethnicities. LGBTQ is tough because we don't disclose. So the companies I work with struggle with something called self-identification. We don't trust our companies--and this just speaks volumes--we don't trust our companies enough to check a box about who we really are, so we can't be counted. [laughs] So we--so, you know, there has to be, like, faith that we exist in organizations upwards of maybe 10% of the population, because we're only--on paper, we're only recorded at, like, 1%.Zach: Yeah, and that's just not accurate, right?Jennifer: No, it's not accurate, but we're doing that because we're terrified, you know? We're terrified of losing our job. We're just--even in the best companies. And that's true for people with disabilities too, but I think [some] companies have to [?], and I think they're gonna get pushed back. If they roll things out like this, they're gonna get a lot of pushback. People are gonna say, "I don't want to be forced to--" You know, "I believe in a meritocracy, and I want to hire the best person for the job, and you can't force me to hire a candidate that's less than," and my answer to that is if you did a good job of having enough of a pipeline of all kinds of talent, it wouldn't just be one candidate you're looking at and you're feeling like somebody, you know, is forcing you, holding your feet to the fire to hire them. You would have lots of choices. And so we've got to do a better job of filling that pipeline, keeping people in the pipeline, not letting them leave, and investing in them so that they feel they can thrive at a company long-term instead of wanting to bail out because they can't stand it out anymore, you know? That's just a sad commentary on workplace culture, but unfortunately I think it's the experience of tons of people that I talk to.Zach: The thing about it is the challenge with it is like--your earlier point around change, like, not--you know, that if left to its own devices will happen so incrementally, so small, that it won't be--it won't have--Jennifer: So slowly. It won't be meaningful. It won't even be big enough, yeah.Zach: And I think when you look at American history and you look at the history of civil rights in this country, it's really--I don't know if we have, like, a tangible example of truly radical sustained change from a culture perspective in this country. I think when you look across--especially when you look at, like, this current presidency, it's actually forced a lot of people to really, like, look at the history of race relations in America, especially if you want to examine, like, the past 55, 60 years, and you look at--and if you look at, like, the economic positioning of blacks today versus blacks in 1967, you know, you don't see the needle moving much at all. In fact, in a lot of areas you see the needle moving down. So it's interesting, so I 100% agree with you that there needs to be some genuinely radical--I'm gonna use the word again, radical--change in thought in terms of just what it's gonna look like, because--and we talked about this in another interview too. We talked about the future of work and we talked about the future of learning and education. You know, as the economy shifts and changes and more and more folks are not going to school, because school is going to continue to get more expensive and--like, all of that, it's gonna create a completely new environment that I don't know if we're really taking the time to really examine and consider. Jennifer: I know. We're still having the conversation with managers to say, "Hey, don't hire from the school you went to. That's bias." Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: You know, literally that's where we are. But you're talking about, like, the 3.0, which is literally that people are not gonna have these traditional college degrees or any degree. They'll go to trade school or whatever it is. Like, they're gonna have completely non-traditional backgrounds. They will have been, you know, previously incarcerated. They will be, you know, of different statuses, and we have to figure out--like, workplaces need all the talent they can get, and yet they're completely behind in terms of how they seek that talent, where they look. People, like, throw their hands up so too easily, you know? They just say, "Oh, we just couldn't find anyone." [laughs] You know, it's just, like, endless, the stories I hear. And I don't know. It's laziness. It's--I don't even know. I mean, it depends on the day, like, how cynical I am about it all, but I don't know. [laughs] I just am like, "Really?" Like, if you really wanted to find people, they're there, and I--believe me, 'cause I'm on Twitter, and, like, Black Twitter is on fire. Like, you know, the number of angel investment groups, the number of VCs, the number of start-ups, the number of black girls who code. Like, there's such a great community to recruit from, and I just--I wonder, like, what is it--what is it that people aren't doing or won't do? Like, what is the hold up?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. You know what, Jennifer? I'ma say this. Hold on. You know what? You're a real one. I appreciate you. That's a really good call-out, 'cause you're absolutely right. Like, Black Twitter is poppin,', and, like, there's so much--there are so many pools, right, of talent for you to engage in. There's Black Code Collective, like, in D.C. Like, there's all types of stuff. Like, there are people--and, like, to your point around, like, how people are learning today, there are people who went to culinary school and then, like, are now learning how to code, and, like, they're good at it, right? There are communities now that will welcome you in for free. You will--you can learn, and you can genuinely understand and learn how to code. And so there's plenty of opportunity to deepen your pipeline, so yeah, that's a really good point. There are things that people either aren't doing or are choosing not to do, but the talent is definitely out there. You know, you talked about cynicism. I think that really leads to my next question. Like, can we take a step back and just talk about, like, D&I, or I&D, as an industry, right? Jennifer: Oh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Jennifer: Speaking of cynicism, I think I know where you're going with this. I'm ready to go there with you too, so I think I know. [both laugh]Zach: So there's a growing sentiment, right, that the largest voices who are advocating for diversity and inclusion in highly-visible or corporate/corporatized spaces are themselves members of the majority and, by relation, have some inherent blind spots within the subject matter that they espouse expertise in. Do you find any merit to that concern? And, like, what have you done to challenge your own blind spots? You spoke to this a little bit earlier, but I'd love for you to expound on that and if you have any other advice you would give to others.Jennifer: Hm, that is such an interesting observation. It's funny, because I could make the counter-argument that I think we're in a time--like, you ask any white diversity leader right now, and their credibility is questioned on a daily basis to be in the role they're in. Like, that is the truth. In fact, they get, like, threats.Zach: Really?Jennifer: Yeah. I've seen some people get some serious heat just for having the audacity of even having the position or accepting the position.Zach: Oh, wow.Jennifer: Yeah. So there's many stories, right, on all sides of this issue, and like I said, I think--I don't know if I said it earlier, but when you're a marginalized community, it also doesn't mean that you're a great leader on inclusion necessarily. Zach: That's true, yeah.Jennifer: Because I've seen plenty of--you know, like, we were talking about white gay men at Stonewall who were--you know, can be, like, very misogynistic, very racist, very--and so, you know, that can carry forward into a diversity leader role, but that doesn't mean that all of them are totally, you know, not effective practitioners, and it also doesn't mean because you're a person of color that you're an effective practitioner, right?Zach: That's right.Jennifer: So to me--and you respect this--it's a skill set, you know? It is a skill set, but it is also your identity, right? And it's how you deal with your identity in the world, and it's how you integrate those two things that makes you an effective voice. But also you've got to be an incredibly savvy change agent to have these roles. I mean, they're very difficult roles. They're some of the most complex roles that exist, I think, in business, because it's part influencing, it's part executive, you know, believability, credibility. It's passion. It's change agility. It is storytelling, right, and being, like--but incredibly data-oriented and, you know, convincing, and knowing the business so that you can make the business case, right? So you need to know the business you're in in order to make the argument for D&I, and you've got to be able to do all of those things. And by the way, you're probably part of a marginalized community, and you're dealing with all of the biases personally, like, that you're getting, at the same time as you're leading an entire institution, like, through this morass, you know? Through these really difficult, tense, and, you know, complex times. So it's really, like, one of the toughest roles, and I have so much respect--I worry about our practicioner community, both on the consulting side but really our internal--my internal clients, 'cause they're just--they're holding up, you know, this planet, you know, these giant organizations. Anyway, but to answer your question [of] "Who's allowed and who has permission to do this work?" It's a very good question. I mean, I've even questioned--you know, 'cause somebody hasn't dug into who I am and has judged me just based on what I look like, and that's okay. I mean, I would say, you know, it hurts me, but whatever. Like, that doesn't matter. It's most important, I think, for us not to judge each other, I think for us to look at the skill set objectively, but I do think the optics of people in these roles are important. You have to be, like, a really amazing, humble leader. Like, you have to be--you have to be really deep in the work, I think, to take on that role as a majority identity. If you're a--say you're a white guy. I don't know a lot of white straight guys in these roles. I do know white gay guys, and they--every day their privilege is pointed out to them. Every day. Nobody lets them forget, you know, that they are--that they have an enormous responsibility in that role and that, like, they have a lot of work to do. And if you talk to any of them--and I know some of my clients are of that identity, and it's a tough lift for them. I know some straight white women, and again, they are pretty enlightened people, and they're very humble, and they're very, like--they've been studying this for a long time. Some of them have sort of really personal relationships. I know a lot of gay white women actually in these roles, and they--and sometimes I know gay women of color in these roles, and they're amazing. I mean, amazing amazing. Like, and the intersectionality they can bring to it is deep, and I find--not to say, you know, certain combinations of identities are, like, more important, but to be able to speak to so many different identities in your workforce in a direct way, you know, there's kind of--that's a wonderful shortcut, to be able to do that and on top of that be, like, somebody who's, like, been in HR for 20 years, you know, and is super savvy about playing the politics and all of the other things you need for the role, but I would like to think that we can all--we all have a role to play, and some companies are more embracing of--I will tell you some inside baseball. Sometimes I get asked to send, you know, a white man to a consulting engagement, and--that is true, you know, and talk to anyone in the work that I do, and they'll tell you that's [?]. And we will push back. We will say, you know, "We're not sure that's the right answer," and "Let's talk about it," and, you know, sometimes strangely it is the right answer for certain groups who have been really, really recalcitrant and resistant, and the messenger matters sometimes more than the message. Like, certain people can be heard in certain ways, and we know this is true. So we--that's why we have such tremendous diversity on our consulting team, because we just--we have to get creative sometimes and make sure that we build a pairing, for example, that's gonna be in front of a room that maybe the client is really, really struggling to be heard in front of this business unit or this team or this, you know, office in a certain region in the country, and we'll need to switch it out. You know, we'll need to put a different voice in front of people to see, you know, and sadly the messenger is something that needs to be considered. And I wouldn't let it rest, and I wouldn't not challenge it, but I do think we--we've got to use every change tool in our arsenal, particularly with those who are really resistant and really stuck and I think experiencing a lot of bias per the messenger that they're hearing the message from. And it's funny. You know, I have to be really careful. I can't be the angry--I have to be careful to not be the angry woman and the angry gay person, and I can't imagine what it would be like delivering that truthful message that I do and also being a person of color, right? I'm very aware that I have a lot more latitude for my quote-unquote passion to come through, right, and to be--and not to have it seen as being threatening, you know? Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, your point around, like, changing up the messenger and mixing it up, it's really interesting because in the work that I have done, I have a similar strategy--and it's interesting, because I do that without even being asked. Like, I'll just be like, "Look, I know that for this I just need to have a really approachable white face to deliver this message," and they're partners for me in that. And honestly, Jennifer, I do that even just at work. Like, if I have a big meeting--Jennifer: Of course. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] If I have a big meeting or, like, you know, there's just something going on and it's like, "Okay, I really want to share this thing, but I know that if I say it, then it's gonna get an eye roll or it's not gonna be heard, so let me go ahead and mobilize this white woman or this white guy."Jennifer: Your allies.Zach: Yes, and then I'll have them say it, or I will let them know that I'm about to say it. Jennifer: I wish that weren't true.Zach: Say that again?Jennifer: I just wish it weren't true, like, that you have to do that, and to me that's, like, the extra tax that we pay. You know, that's extra labor. You have to literally not only have the brilliant idea, but you have to, like, strategize about who is, like, sitting next to you or, you know, backing you up when you have a brilliant idea, or who's gonna echo your--you know, women deal with this, and we all know this is, like, a fact of life. But I appreciate what you're bringing up, that it's a universal experience for so many of us, and it's just--if we look at it on the bright side--let's, like, look at it as a glass half-full, which I always do. [laughs] You know, I think this all makes us really savvy, like, very emotionally intelligent, right? Because as limited as our audience might be in terms of seeing us, doesn't this make us--it sort of sharpens our saw. I mean, I think when you have to think about "How am I gonna get this group over the finish line?" Like, how am I going to get them to listen to me, to believe in what I say and to give me the credibility when I'm walking in the room and I know what they're thinking about me?" You know, "How am I gonna do that?" And to me it's, like, a--you know, it's a brain twister, but it makes you be very creative. And by the way, I hope in enlisting those allies that they know why they're being enlisted and that it really raises their awareness [of] the permutations that so many of us go through in the workplace to be heard. You know, that's--I hope that they're noticing that. Like, that's a really important learning, to be approached by someone--to say, "Hey, would you have my [back?] in this meeting? I'm gonna bring this up," and, you know, to me that is, like, such a sad commentary, and at the same time it's such a demonstration of how far we have to go for people to be heard and the space that we have to learn to hold for each other. Like, we've got to do that--you know what? We need to do that without being asked. That's where I really want to get, right? So that if I'm in this meeting and I hear you bring up this brilliant idea, you don't even need to ask me to have your back. Like, I am gonna instinctively know if you're talked over or if somebody steals your idea or somebody poo-poos it that I'm gonna intervene, and I'm gonna know what's going on, and that to me, that would be sort of nirvana in the workplace, that those pre-conversations, that pre-planning that you just described doesn't even need to happen because everyone knows it's an issue and everyone's on guard for it. Like, can you imagine? Like, if we were all like, "Oh, no, no." You know, "She is not gonna be talked over," or "His idea is not going to be dismissed," you know? "And I'm gonna quote it, and I'm gonna bring the attention back to him and, you know, his idea." It's like the women in the Obama cabinet. I love that story, where they literally decided, like, that this was not gonna happen anymore, and they all banded together and made the plan.Zach: Yes, I loved that.Jennifer: And then they went into--I know. And then they went into the meeting, and they all, like, echoed each other's ideas and mentioned each other by name and made eye contact with other women in the room. So they sort of redirected everybody's attention. I'm still--believe it or not, if I go into a meeting with my male colleague, they will talk to him. Like, it still happens to me. Oh, yeah. And I'm a CEO, and he works for me, you know? [both laugh] So yeah, it's still a thing. And he's really good, because he'll, like, redirect back to me. Zach: "Um, actually, Ms. Brown, what do you think?" [laughs]Jennifer: Yes. Well, he'll say, "Well, as Jennifer always says," right? "As somebody who is an acknowledged expert." I love that. [laughs] But yeah, we need to do that [?], and that would be nirvana. So I really talk about that a lot in my book. Like, the emotional labor of having to ask for help, I really, really wish more of us would know that help is needed. Like, we would know the data. We would know the research. You know, for God's sake, like, read the McKenzie report on women that they do every year. Zach: Oh, it's so good.Jennifer: Yeah, it's so good, and you'll realize that women of color have different headwinds than white women. Just that, you know? And if you go into meetings and you see this dynamic and you have any level of privilege, any level of positional power where you're listened to in a different way, you need to activate that so that you change those numbers and those outcomes. Like, you must do that. And it's such a small thing. This takes two seconds. Like, that's the thing when people are like, "Ugh, inclusion takes so much time, and I'm so busy, and I don't know how--it competes with the business priorities, and I have a long list, and, like, I'm already strapped for time." All of that--I don't think this takes a lot of time. It just takes a moment of attention to [bias?] your own others, a quick conversation to check in with somebody, a request for feedback, a "Hey, you know, I wanted to follow up with you after that meeting." Like, "I really thought your idea was great. I want to support you. How can do I do more of that?" That, like, takes two seconds to say, and like you said earlier, it's so welcome. Like, I think that's the--people are like, "I don't know how to start that conversation." [laughs] It's like, "Most of these conversations are, like, a gift to so many people who are never asked these questions to begin with," right? So please approach me. Ask me how can you support me more differently. What could you say in a meeting? What could you say after a meeting to someone when I'm not around? You know, I think that's the other piece, right? Like, give feedback to people that look like you. Like, I always say, you know, "Men listen to other men in a very different way." And so, you know, if you've got the privilege of being listened to. You know, the messenger, not just the message, and you can take the burden off of my shoulders to have a hard conversation with somebody, to say, "Hey, that joke made me uncomfortable." Like, that's a very risky move for me to do, 'cause I--you know, that is drawing attention to my difference. I have no idea how that person is going to react. And so I really--as a woman, I really appreciate men who proactively are like, "What can I do to--" Really it's kind of protect you in a way, and it's not protect in a sort of damsel-in-distress kind of way. It is literally--like, it could be protecting an idea. It could be making sure you don't fall victim to politics in the office. It could be that I represent you when you're not in the room and I talk about how brilliant you are, you know? It's that kind of thing, because otherwise we're sort of hanging out in the wind. And one of the things I always say is diverse talent is undermentored and very undersponsored, which means that we're not--we literally aren't looked after, like, informally. We are not--like, somebody's not like, "Well, let me have that career conversation with her to make sure that she's up for that role, so that she has P&L experience, so that she's then positioned so she can get that promotion," because there's all of these, like, unspoken and unwritten rules that we're not privy to when you're not in the power structure. So I often task people I speak to, like, "Look at the people you mentor. Look at the people you sponsor. Do they look like you?" You know, if they do, and you are a certain demographic, like, you must remedy that. Like, you've got to be mentoring across difference, sponsoring across difference, and--by the way, it should be reverse mentoring as well. It should be mutual so that you're learning--to your point earlier, like, how are you getting your learning about cultural differences? It's in the context of these really, really important one-on-one relationships. So wherever you can power share, wherever you can be influenced or learn somebody's experience, as a senior executive, your biggest risk is that you're isolated from all of this, and therefore you're not an effective leader. You're not positioning yourself for the future. You're harming your company, because you're setting this vision every day, but you--there's so much you don't know. So, you know, I think that's a good wake-up call for people usually. And if that doesn't work, [laughs] I don't know. I give up.Zach: [laughs] I don't know.Jennifer: I'm like, "I've given you now two books to read." You know, 63 podcast episodes. You know? Come on. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "What more do you want more from me?"Jennifer: What more do you need? It's writing on the wall. Wake up, you know? Get with--get on the train, you know, and be willing to make mistakes as we were talking about earlier, and, you know, even know how to do a good apology, 'cause, you know, I think there is a real art to a real apology. I think you said earlier [that] there's nothing worse than somebody who, like, says all the right things but, like, in this really authentic kind of faux, polished way.Zach: Yes. You know what? We're gonna have to have you back just to talk about the topic of apologizing [?]. Like, for real.Jennifer: Yeah, right? I love that apology. I mean, I love that topic. Sorry.Zach: No, no, you're good.Jennifer: But a good apology can make up for everything, and it's almost like a required skill set, particularly for those in the majority, because things are gonna happen. Like, you're gonna mess it up. You are. And so being comfortable with uncomfortable, comfortable with hard feedback, and, to me, not slinking away into the corner but saying, "Thank you so much for that, and I'm gonna try it again, and I'm gonna do it differently." Like, wouldn't that resilience be really neat to hear and see in our leaders?Zach: It would. It would be great, and I think--you know, believe it or not I'm actually a little bit encouraged coming out of this conversation. This has been really good.Jennifer: [laughs] Really?Zach: Yeah, I am.Jennifer: Oh, that's good, 'cause we talked about some cynical stuff. [laughs]Zach: We did, we did, but it was real though.Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's such a mixed bag, but like you said earlier, like, we're living in really interesting times of awakening, and you're right--like, I think ever since the 2016 election I would say is when so many people and so many companies were like, "Oh, my goodness," you know? MLK Jr., "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." One of my favorite quotes, but guess what? We have to bend the arc. Like, the arc, it ain't gonna bend itself.Zach: Right? It don't just bend by itself. Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, that's the thing. So to me we've got to take that and bend it, and I think what we've realized is it's not this destiny, you know? Things aren't gonna happen without--and they aren't gonna happen because of good intentions. They're not gonna happen because we have maybe progressive values. They're not gonna happen because "Oh, I'm a male leader and I have daughters, so therefore, like, I am an expert on gender equality." No. Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: No. Like, you have to do something, and you have to do something publicly, consistently, constantly. I used an example in a book of Marc Benioff, who is the CEO of Salesforce, who discovered he had a huge pay gap and literally wrote a check for $3 million, like, right away and was like, "I'm gonna gross up pay for people, because I'm not gonna let this stand another day, then we're gonna do the harder work," right? Which is rooting out, like, why did this happen in the first place. And then as he's done this--he does it every year now--they've discovered, by the way, pay gap--not just gender but ethnicity pay gaps. Not surprising.Zach: Right.Jennifer: And then they've acquired so many 10s of companies that also had pay gaps as Salesforce acquired them, and they had to do a new audit, you know, and to look at their pay gaps and, you know, gross it up. So, you know, literally there are people that are--that are just being relentless on this, because under their watch they're not gonna let this persist. And so I do see a lot of courage amongst leaders, and that leaves me really hopeful. I wish I saw it more, and I wish I saw it more publicly. I think there's a lot of really interesting conversations going on with privately with lawyers and, you know, the board and, you know, sometimes I'm privy to those, and I'm really, really heartened by the interest I see in the C-Suite. I have to say, people are getting it, and I think their question now is "How do we change it?" And that's a much harder question to answer when you're dealing with a giant organization that does business all over the world and has to contend with laws in various parts of the world, and, you know, it's hard to know where to start, and I think that's where people are at, that they want to start, and that's a relief to me. I mean, it makes my job easier because I'm not fighting the "Why is this important?" battle all of the time.

Having a mission statement for your family isn't required but it can be very beneficial for creating and maintaining the culture of your home. Jennifer and I have never created a mission statement before so we thought we would make one while you listen. If you have been blessed by the Marriage After God podcast please consider supporting it by picking up a copy of our book titled Marriage After God. https://marrigeaftergod.com READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with "Marriage After God". [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're gonna do something fun and we're gonna talk about creating a family mission statement. Welcome to the "Marriage After God" podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just "Happily Ever After". [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as "Unveiled Wife". [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as "Husband Revolution". [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years, through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is "Marriage After God". Firstly, we want to just thank everyone for joining us on this podcast today. We're super excited just to have you join us 'cause this is gonna be an interesting episode. We have a lot in store for you, but first we just wanna ask that you would take a minute to leave us a review. It's easy, you just scroll to the bottom of the app and just leave us a star rating review or comment review. This is one way to support the podcast "Marriage After God" because it allows other people to find the podcast, and we wanna do that. So, please take a moment to help us out there and thank you. [Aaron] Also, our book's out. Our new book, "Marriage After God", is available. It's been such and awesome ride seeing the response we've been getting, and if you have not picked up a copy yet, we'd love for you to go to shop.marriageaftergod.com, and pick up a copy today. One of the most powerful ways you can support us, is by buying our book, and it also supports your marriage and your life. We wrote the book for you. We wrote it to encourage you in the ministry that God has for you and your spouse, so go grab a copy today. [Jennifer] Okay, so we are going to start off here with an ice-breaker question, and Aaron came up with this question, so I'm hoping he has an answer. What is the ideal family trip or vacation? [Aaron] I actually didn't think about it when I said it, so I don't have... Okay, let me think. Ideal family trip. So, I can look back on something we have done that I really enjoyed, when we went to the East Coast, but we did like a plane-drive, plane-drive. [Jennifer] It was over a period of a week and a half, two weeks. [Aaron] Yeah, and I thought that was a lot of fun 'cause we got to fly the portions that I thought would've been boring, maybe. Get to a new area and then drive around, stay for a day or two, go to the next place-- [Jennifer] And here, you said, "Ideal family trip". That doesn't sound ideal for any family. [Aaron] For me! Oh, are you saying ideal for everyone? [Jennifer] Yeah, I don't know if that was your question, but I'm just thinking everyone listening right now is probably shaking their heads, no. [Aaron] I thought that was a fun trip for us. [Jennifer] I think the majority of families, especially with young children, would say flying and driving multiple times in one trip would be a difficult challenge. [Aaron] Okay, I didn't know it "ideal for everyone". Ideal for everyone would be like, going somewhere awesome and staying there for a while. Like, with a house that's comfortable and you have all your family with you, and there's a pool or a beach. [Jennifer] Where would that place be, Aaron? [Aaron] Maui? I don't know. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Aaron] What's ideal for you? What would that be? [Jennifer] So, I think you and me just like adventure because I really had fun that time too, that we went to the East Coast, but I think an ideal family trip is visiting family in California. I think that's just because I know it's something the kids enjoy. We usually hit up the beach. We stay there all day. [Aaron] Yeah, that is fun. [Jennifer] I think it's just an easy, kind of, go-to is when you're visiting family somewhere, you're staying with them, and you're just doing something simple. [Aaron] All right, that's good answer. [Jennifer] Relaxing. [Aaron] I'm sure everyone listening has their own ideal. Like, staying home. Eating ice cream, that sounds ideal. [Jennifer] Now that it's summertime, I'm sure there's a lot of people traveling and doing, you know, maybe family vacations or summer trips. [Aaron] Camping. So, we hope you guys are, and we hope that if you can spend that time with your family and doing something fun, even if it's local, like camping in the backyard, you're doing it, 'cause those are memories that your kids will love forever. [Aaron] Oh yeah. So, I just wanna, before we get into the main topic, I'm gonna read a quote from the book "Marriage After God", and it's about this idea. It's from Chapter 13 of "Marriage After God". [Jennifer] About what idea? Just that you clarify. [Aaron] Yeah, it's about the idea of creating a vision statement or mission statement for your marriage. It says this, "Casting a vision together for the future "of your marriage is an intimate experience "where hope for the future "stimulates perseverance for today." What's awesome about that is, when we create a vision for the future, it doesn't mean we're necessarily planning to the "T" everything that's going to happen in the future, it's just saying like, "This is where we'd like to be." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] "This is what, you know, "the trajectory we want to be on as a family." It helps in those moments when it's tedious; when it's hard; when you're going through something and you say, "Well, we're in this together. "We're going the same direction. "We know where we wanna be, and even if we never get "to that exact point in time, or ideal situation, "we're going there together." [Jennifer] Yeah, and in Chapter 13 of "Marriage After God" we really, you know, drive home this idea that this is an intimate experience that you guys get to do together, and it's something to look forward to casting a vision together and having hope for your marriage and hope for your future together and for your family. This is something that we've kept as a valuable thing in our marriage for years, and I enjoy it. I enjoy the process with you, and so even though in "Marriage After God" we don't strictly talk about creating a family mission statement, we do talk about casting a vision together. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] And in the back of "Marriage After God" we even list some questions for you to sit down and have one of those date-night conversations and be mindful of the next five years, the next 25 years and what that looks like, because when we look to the future of things, there is hope there. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] I think that's important. [Aaron] And we have, like you said, we've always cast vision, planned for the next 60 days, next six months, next year, five years. [Jennifer] We kinda do seasons. [Aaron] We do seasons of that, but we've never sat down and actually wrote down a family vision statement. [Jennifer] Yeah, so even thought we kind of operate out of this same understanding, we've never sat down to do it, and it was actually because of the "Marriage After God" podcast series, which if you guys haven't checked that out, we've been going through-- [Aaron] Yeah just-- [Jennifer] Yeah, 16, 17 episodes about this idea of 'Marriage After God' but several people who we interviewed brought up this idea of creating a family mission statement, and how it has impacted their marriage. I know people share about it online too. So, we just kinda wanted to use this time to, first, encourage you guys in your marriage. [Aaron] Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] Encourage you guys to have hope for the future as you vision plan together, but even more so create a family mission statement. That's our challenge for you at the end of this episode and because Aaron and I have never officially done this before or wrote it down, we thought it would be fun to-- [Aaron] We're gonna do it with you. [Jennifer] Do it with you, so-- [Aaron] We're just gonna start talkin' about it in this podcast episode, and we're gonna start coming up with kinda the foundational ideas for our own mission statement. [Jennifer] This was an idea that I had after having those interviews and being encouraged by people because I thought, "So often we hear people say, "'We did this thing. "'We created this family mission statement "'and here it is, or it's still a work in progress.'" [Aaron] That sounds wonderful. Good for them. [Jennifer] That's awesome, but where's the example of doing it? Which I don't know if everybody needs an example of that but sometimes it's helpful to go, what does that actually look like in a conversation? [Aaron] Yeah, how do you have that conversation with you spouse? I feel like every time a couple that we interviewed brought it up, we looked at each other and we're like, "We need to do that!" We wave our hands like, yeah, we just need to do that. [Jennifer] So, the unique part of this episode today is actually that we're gonna be jumping in here in a bit to kind of experience it with you guys. This is like a behind the scenes kind of-- [Aaron] We have not talked about this before recording this. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] So, you'll hear the candid conversation about how we see our family, where we see we're gonna go, yeah. So, you're gonna join us on this little adventure with us. [Jennifer] Okay, so-- [Aaron] Before we start, why don't you read that quote from "Seven Habits of a Highly Effective Family" by Stephen Covey. [Jennifer] Okay. [Aaron] 'Cause it's in his whole book about creating a mission statement. [Jennifer] So, I will let you guys know that we actually haven't read this book, but I just jumped on really quick and I typed in Google and said, "family mission statement". [Aaron] This is a part of the process. [Jennifer] Yeah, I encourage you guys to do that too. So, we haven't read this book. We probably will in the future, but there was several people who were quoting this from his book, and it says, "A family mission statement "is a combined unified expression from all family members "of what your family is all about, "what it is you really want to do and be, "and the principles you choose to govern your family life." [Aaron] That's cool, and that's essentially what we're doing. We're not doing it with our kids this time. Our kids are, I think, too young. They'll eventually get older and then what we'll do is we'll probably sit down with them and invite them in and we'll adjust 'cause maybe our kids will have other perspectives they wanna bring in. I know that we have families that they have large families, lots of kids, and they bring their kids in, their older kids, and invite 'em to be a part of this vision planning and mission statement. [Jennifer] So, two things, since we're being candid here. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] The first one being, I don't think our children are too small to be incorporated, even at this stage of the game because it's not finalized yet, right? [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] This is our initial go at it. And so I think-- [Aaron] And Elliott is pretty smart. [Jennifer] Yeah, Elliott's smart. [Aaron] He'll be like, "Why don't we..." [Jennifer] But I think... Okay, so our kids are six and a half, four, two, and eight months. So obviously, Truit's not gonna say much. [Aaron] I don't know. [Jennifer] But having a family fun meeting, where we're saying, "Okay guys, here are some questions "mommy and daddy have for you", and getting them involved. Maybe even if some of the questions are over their head, it'll still be a fun time to spend together and maybe we'll be surprised." [Aaron] Let's write down the funny answers and then we'll keep those for the future and say, "This is what you said when you were four." [Jennifer] Maybe we'll be surprised by them. [Aaron] That's probably true. [Jennifer] So, I do-- [Aaron] I concede. [Jennifer] The second thing is I wanna encourage those listening, if you do have children, that you do find a way to incorporate them in this process because they are a part of the family; and if you're doing it and you don't have kids yet, that's okay too. You and your spouse-- [Aaron] And I guess it's gonna give them more ownership and be like, "Hey, you are members of this family, "not just people that are in it." [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] "You're part of it." [Jennifer] Yeah, and I think what I've gathered from trying to understand this family mission statement saying, is that it's not something that is like, "here are the rules", you know. It's more of something that's supposed to encourage the family unit to be in agreeance and have the same understanding of what those family core values are. So, even though this quote up here says "to govern your family life", I think there's freedom in that. It's not like a list of rules, but it's something creative, a creative way to establish standards and core values. [Aaron] Okay. So, should we do it? [Jennifer] I think we should jump in, yeah. [Aaron] Should we start working on this? I know our kids aren't here but we're gonna start at least with the foundational stuff, maybe? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Answer some questions. [Jennifer] And just again to preface, this is not something that's... There's not a final answer to. We're kinda just jumping in to show you guys how the conversation could go. [Aaron] Well, it's gonna go. [Jennifer] Well, it's gonna go. This is it. [Aaron] This is our legitimate conversation that we're gonna talk about our mission statement as a family. [Jennifer] Okay. You might hear keyboard typing 'cause I'm taking notes. That's how I'm doin' it. [Aaron] Yeah, so you have a question there, but I guess I wanna start with the first one. I know we kind of hit it up, but when you hear "mission statement"... 'Cause I'm sure everyone has their own little definition of it, and you even had to Google it, like, "What's everyone do?" Everyone's got a little different take on it. When you think mission statement, what do you think? Like, is this our one word phrase or few words phrase? Like, when we are out and about we say, "This is who we are!" [Jennifer] Yeah, we get t-shirts made, right? [Aaron] Yeah, we can get some t-shirts made. [Jennifer] That's not a bad idea. The word that comes to my mind is it's a motto. It's a way of being. It's a way of doing life together, and I do think it is something that should be shortened and concise so that it's easy to remember. [Aaron] I agree. [Jennifer] There might be portions of it that are expanded upon, but I think it should be something that is easy to remember. [Aaron] Okay, it's almost like a statement of faith on our website [Jennifer] Exactly! [Aaron] It's like, "This is what we believe, "this is who we are." [Jennifer] Exactly. [Aaron] Yeah, and this is how we're gonna live. Of course, because we're believers and we love the Lord and we love the Bible, that's probably gonna be a big part of this. [Jennifer] Well, yeah. I would assume that Christians who create a family mission statement, it's built upon the Word. [Aaron] Right. Okay, so we're gonna have to have some verses and we'll get to that probably. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] So, here's the first question. What are some words that describe our family or what we want our family to be? [Jennifer] Hmm. [Aaron] I'm just gonna throw out the first thing-- [Jennifer] Okay, go. [Aaron] I thought of is generous. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And for those listening, a lot of the things we're gonna say, because we kind of have just walked in certain things over the last 12 years that we've been married and even before then. I think there's just gonna be some natural things that come out of us. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But now it's gonna be solidified as, "This is who we are." So, generosity is something I believe has been a mark of our marriage for a long time. [Jennifer] I like that. A word that comes to my mind is, I think I already said it, but "adventurous". Meaning that we find the fun in things. [Aaron] Write that down, "we find the fun in thing", 'cause there could be lot's of different "adventurous." Adventurous like, we like to take financial risks. Or adventurous like-- [Jennifer] No, more like, we do fun things. [Aaron] Okay, that's a different kind of adventur-- [Jennifer] We like to explore. We like to eat. We like to go-- [Aaron] We love change. [Jennifer] We love change. [Aaron] Not too much change but we like new environments. We like-- [Jennifer] Yeah, I would say, not change so much to our rhythms and routines, because those are important but more so just experiential. I don't know how to explain it. [Aaron] Like new environments. [Jennifer] New environments. [Aaron] It goes into the adventurous side of... We like to go to new places. We like to be around new people. [Jennifer] I don't know if we've shared this before but we've kind of done these Saturday adventure days with the kids throughout the summer time. [Aaron] Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] 'Cause we go through seasons where it's just easier. [Aaron] We did a podcast about the adventure days. [Jennifer] Okay. So, that's an important thing. When I think of adventure, I think time set aside where we know we're gonna be doing something with the kids, whether it's local or maybe a-- [Aaron] Out of the norm. So, like, we have our normal flow. We have our normal rhythm, and then we're gonna go do something 'not'. [Jennifer] Go on a hike. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Go look at the river. Go whatever it is. [Aaron] Go for a long drive to a new place through a rose garden or apples. [Jennifer] I do, I make... You guys don't know this about me. I make Aaron go out of his way for me all the time because-- [Aaron] She's like, "I found this orchard "on the other side of the mountain. "Can we go?" And then like, it's not open or... I'm just kidding. No, we've actually had a lot of cool adventures just 'cause you Google and find a cool place to go see. [Jennifer] Yeah, even like, we were in Portland this time last year. I remember it was hot and only Elliot was awake, the other kids were napping. I was like, "Will you just pull over and let me go see "the rose garden? "I've been wanting to see it." You know, but it was a fun little detour and it worked out for everyone. I like that kind of stuff. [Aaron] So, adventurous in the fun kind of way, in the environmental kind of way, the experiential kind of way. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] I would say another word I think of is community. [Jennifer] Mmm. [Aaron] I know it's like an easy buzz word for Christians. [Jennifer] No, it's good. [Aaron] We've made big decisions in our life and one of the main criteria in that decision was community. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Often. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] When moving, our prayer was, "Well, we can't move until something changes "in our community because we have these relationships, "we have these connections. "God has us here." [Jennifer] So, being loyal. [Aaron] Yeah, I like that word, loyal. We walk with people and we don't just say, "Well, "they'll get over it, we're gonna move on "and find new friends." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Not that we've been perfect at this, but community's been a huge part of how we make decisions. Even now we think, "If we ever had to move, "who's are we gonna convince to move with us?" And it's not that we don't like being... Like we couldn't do it on our own. We know that community is so important and we want to take it with us. [Jennifer] Yeah. So, I would say a part of that is also walking in light, and we've done this time and time again where it's just being transparent, being able to communicate-- [Aaron] Oh, put that word, that's a good word, transparent. [Jennifer] Okay. [Aaron] I guess it is tied to community, but it's transparent in other things too 'cause our online communities we are transparent with and we don't know any of them. [Jennifer] If nobody knows what he's talking about, we have these online communities who are amazing people. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Who have been following us [Aaron] Facebook, Instagram. [Jennifer] For eight years now. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] It's so awesome. [Aaron] Yeah. So, we try and be the same person to every person we meet. Would that be like-- [Jennifer] Integrity? [Aaron] Integrity. [Jennifer] I like that. [Aaron] I don't know if that's in-Integrity's like being the same person when no one's around. Right? [Jennifer] But also when different people are around. It's all the time. [Aaron] Right, okay. Say like, I'm not showing this person that face, and then that person this face. [Jennifer] I only show you different faces. [Aaron] Okay. [Jennifer] I used to have to work on this. [Aaron] Showing me like... I'd be like, "Why do you give everyone the 'good' face?" And then when you get home I get that face. [Jennifer] Yeah, you said, "I want the best of you." [Aaron] Yeah, that was-- [Jennifer] 'cause I had a problem with showing you too much-- [Aaron] Well, I think it's normal. Just as a little tangent. It's easy to let down the face you have on for everyone else, when you're around the person you know loves you. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But we should really say, "No, I'm actually gonna work harder to give the best "to my closest neighbor, my spouse." It doesn't mean we give the worst to our other neighbors. [Jennifer] Everybody else. [Aaron] Yeah, I guess it's just-- [Jennifer] I needed balance in my life when it came to that. [Aaron] Yeah, it's learning how to be real. Like, when you're around someone, you could at least be real and say, "I'm not feeling good right now" or "I'm not"... Anyways, that was a tangent. So, transparent, I like. That's a good word. That's something that's always been, we've always prided ourselves in... I don't wanna say "prided ourselves". Just being transparent. Not wanting to hide things, be open. Integrity is a good word. So, I think community, transparency, generous, let's think... [Jennifer] I would say faithfulness to our Christian walk, to being obedient to God's Word. Our faith is foundational. [Aaron] I like faithfulness though as the word, because it's easy to say faith. Faith's important, but faithfulness means to our faith and to the Word, and to God. [Jennifer] It's like active. [Aaron] Yeah, it's like a movement word. Is that a verb? It's an action word. What are some... I feel like there's other words that we often say. [Jennifer] Just real quick as a side note to those listening. [Aaron] Extraordinary. I just wanted to say before I forgot it. [Jennifer] Okay. That's fine. [Aaron] Extraordinary is a big word for us. [Jennifer] Yes. Do you wanna explain why? [Aaron] Well, we talk about it a lot in the book "Marriage After God". [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] But it's this idea that we've always had a heart to not just be normal. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And that doesn't mean that our goal was to be special and like how we wanted to have this... 'Cause starting this ministry online wasn't even an idea in our hearts when we first got married, but our idea was like, "Well, let's just do what God wants "and that's going to be extraordinary." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] We went to the mission field for a while and then we went to Canada, and we went to Florida, and we did all these different little things. [Jennifer] I can actually see how even smaller decisions in our life, like buying this house, that wasn't a small decision, but-- [Aaron] It was at-- [Jennifer] But I just think of decisions that we've made together and we've even out-loud said to ourselves, "Well, that's extraordinary", or "That's not the normal way!" [Aaron] Right, well we could do the ordinary or we could do it the extraordinary way. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And the reason you brought up this house, for those that don't know, they can actually find a YouTube video about us doing the house process. We bought a, I wanna say a fixer-upper. [Jennifer] Decrepit. [Aaron] But it was a beater-upper. It was really bad. We had to tear down most of the house to fix it back up, but when we thought about it we were like, "Well, this is how we're gonna get what we can afford." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] "And then we can make it ours." Which, lot's of people do that, but it was extraordinary in my mind. So, extraordinary is a good word for us. [Jennifer] Yeah. So, when you paused back there I was just gonna note that that's okay when you're doing this process together. There's gonna be times when something might be on your heart or right at the tip of your tongue, and you don't know how to explain it. I think that's why the majority of people will say, "You don't just sit down and write a mission statement. "It's a process, and the process is what counts. "The process is the important part "because you're actually communicating with each other "on what matters most to you." [Aaron] Good tip. [Jennifer] Yeah. So, you just mull it over and come back to the drawing board over and over and over again until you narrow it down. [Aaron] Yeah, and I think after we go through this, we'll be able to see these words and think of better words. [Jennifer] Probably. Or use the good old dictionary! [Aaron] Or just the thesaurus. [Jennifer] Thanks, Google. [Aaron] Thesaurus. [Jennifer] Okay, so are there any phrases that we repeat often or say? [Aaron] Yeah, there's a-- [Jennifer] I know one! Go ahead, what were you gonna say? [Aaron] We do hard things. [Jennifer] Yes! That was what I was gonna say! [Aaron] That was... But you know what? That's a phrase that we only started saying when our kids started getting older. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But-- [Jennifer] To encourage them we would say things "We're the Smiths and we do hard things." [Aaron] And so they own it, and they say, "Oh, okay. "This thing that I said is hard, we do those things." [Jennifer] Yeah. What's cool is they've recognized when we're doing Bible time, certain stories in the Bible of people doing hard things they'll recognize and go, "Hey, David does hard things!" [Aaron] Yeah! So, I think "We do hard things" is a important phrase, and we didn't come up with that of course. [Jennifer] But we use it. [Aaron] We use it often. [Jennifer] I don't know where it came from. [Aaron] And it doesn't just remind our kids, it reminds us because how many times a day do we get to this point of like, "Ugh, I don't wanna do this right now." And they're like, "Ugh, we do hard things." [Jennifer] It's the fight against the flesh. [Aaron] Yeah, we just did our lawns for the first time this season, and I just kept wanting to quit. I was like, "I did enough. Next week I'll finish the weeds." And I'm like . And then I go through and I'm like, "Oh, I'm just gonna go "a little bit further and make this look nice. Then I'm like, "Ugh, I just wanna give up." And then I go a little bit further, and I just kept telling myself, "No, I can finish this. "It's like my first time ever doing this, I should be fine." [Jennifer] That same conversation happens to me every single time I go to work out. It's like, you have ten squats on the list to do and you get through four and you're like, "Ahh!" [Aaron] "I should be able to do this." [Jennifer] "Okay, I'll do one more." And then you want to bail out but then you just keep going, you keep going, you keep going. [Aaron] I think it's a good phrase. What's another phrase that we say? Oh, it's kind of a word but we use it as a phrase. [Jennifer] What? [Aaron] "Gotta have self-control." [Jennifer] Oh, self-control. [Aaron] So, it's a word but-- [Jennifer] Self-control. [Aaron] We use it in a sense that we say it probably a million and a half times a day to our kids. "Are you having self-control? "You need to have self-control. "Remember self-control!" [Jennifer] We say it to each other now, too, because in conjunction with "We're setting the example. "We're setting the example". [Aaron] One of us will be having an attitude about something, just tired or exhausted or frustrated; and I'll be like, "Okay, are you self-controlled right now?" We say it a little quieter to each other. [Jennifer] Okay. So, what-- [Aaron] Is there any other phrases? We say other things. [Jennifer] I'm sure there are and we can come back to this if we think about it, but I was gonna ask, "What is it that we value? "What are some things that we really value?" [Aaron] The Word of God. We have to start with that. I know that sounds like the default answer, but it has to be the number one thing we value. It's what we tell our kids is the most important thing, it's what we try and teach them, we try and live it. So, I think the Word of God is... Now, I will say this, and it's something I've been convicted on recently and something that God's been convicting me on for my whole life, probably. I think this, and then I'm like, "But do I actually show this?" Am I in my Word as much as I could be? I don't want to say "should be" because I don't think there's a number or how many chapters or how many words or how many verses, or whatever; but I know in my heart when I'm in and out of it. I know when I'm giving God's Word the attention it deserves in my life. We could feel it. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] Recently you've been kind of just overwhelmed with the book launch that-- [Jennifer] Lots of stuff to do. [Aaron] Lots of stuff to do and I was just thinking to myself, I'm like, "I wonder what-I didn't say this to you, but I was wondering when you were in the Word. [Jennifer] It's so funny, it's not funny, it's... Wow, this is really convicting because I know exactly the moment in that conversation where I had this thought that, "I wouldn't be feeling this way "if I was in the Word", and-- [Aaron] When was it? 'cause I was thinking about it. I didn't say it to you, I was just... 'Cause I was just encouraging you and comforting you and letting you know it was gonna be okay. [Jennifer] No, it was really impactful for me, and I've been in the Word since. I think sometimes we just get in these ruts or seasons where we're busy or we're going strong on certain areas of our life, and we don't realize when another area have kind of-- [Aaron] Yeah, we've neglected an area. [Jennifer] Been neglected, and that was happening with me for a couple days. I'd say about a week and a half. [Aaron] Well, me too, and I was feeling... Remember I told you how I was feeling? [Jennifer] Yeah, I think it was compiling. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] I think the Lord is good. [Aaron] Well, I was just thinking on Sunday, the message was about... Actually the message wasn't about it, but Matt said, "Hey, we can't know all of this in one sitting. "We have to just go line by line, verse by verse, "chapter by chapter, over years of reading and reading, "and re-reading and re-reading, and re-memorizing "and re-stating, and chewing it over." Then this morning, I was listening to J. Vernon McGee, and he was in Isaiah and he was bringing up the scripture that talks about "precept upon precept, line by line", and he was saying... You know, it took five years for J. Vernon McGee to teach through the Bible. That was just him going through one time. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] Five years. How much do we go 'precept by precept'? Are we just reading through it? Laying on the knowledge that we're getting out of it. That was another good tangent, but Word of God I think is the most valuable thing. It needs to be-- [Jennifer] Bolded? [Aaron] Yeah, bolded and-- [Jennifer] Italicized? [Aaron] Italicized, highlighted in green, but I think it needs to be more evident in our own lives for our kids sake and for our own sake. [Jennifer] Yeah. What a great tool, this mission statement, to remind us to do that. If this is gonna be a foundational thing that is in front of us by maybe putting it on a plaque in our house or however we're gonna display this once we do finalize it. To be reminded of that, you know, every single day. [Aaron] Yeah, "Let's go back to the Word of God. "What does the Word say about this situation." [Jennifer] So, what other things do we value? I feel like we value-- [Aaron] Stewardship? [Jennifer] Stewardship. [Aaron] Is that a good word? [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] Like we value-- [Jennifer] I'm gonna write that down. [Aaron] Being good stewards, which we talk a ton about in 'Marriage after God'. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Because of how important it is to our ministries. [Jennifer] It's like the whole book's message, really. [Aaron] "Are you stewarding the way God's given you well?" That's the whole book actually. [Jennifer] I guess part of what I was gonna say goes along with this. I don't know if you would agree, but recognizing our need verses want in minimalism. Not that we're minimalist people because we have stuff. We have stuff, but I don't feel like we exaggerate and go outside of what we need. Does that make sense? [Aaron] I would agree. I think there's been seasons in our life that, because of discontentment or dissatisfaction or whatever, we've chased after things. [Jennifer] Or acquired. [Aaron] Collecting things, or buying things that we don't need. That's rarer, I would say. I'm not gonna say, "It's not super rare", but we tend to get what we need and not much more. Again, there's plenty of things that we have. [Jennifer] I think we've been good over time of challenging each other or encouraging each other, you know, "Maybe we don't need that thing right now", or "Hey, if you are gonna go get that, think about this." [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] You've done it with me with kids clothes before. "Hey, instead of buying off that website "can we just try and"-- [Aaron] "Because they're not gonna fit in it "in six weeks." [Jennifer] "Or they're gonna be stained up." [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Or whatever the reasoning's were. That was just the first thing off the top of my head. I think that... [Aaron] Stewardship minimalist. Yeah, I agree. We're not minimalist, but we definitely think on a more, "What do we need verses what do we want? "And what do we want, is it something we need, "and is it something we can use and is it gonna be"-- [Jennifer] We're willing to be confronted by that, for sure. [Aaron] Right. What is other things we value? Relationships? [Jennifer] I was gonna say people. [Aaron] People, yeah. I would say this goes up higher. [Jennifer] You can even see this in our kids because Olive really values relationships. [Aaron] Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] All of our kids do, but I could just see it in them. [Aaron] Yeah. Well, it's of course, the Word of God points us to-- [Jennifer] God's relationship. [Aaron] I would say that's almost the number one message in the Bible, other than Jesus Christ and him crucified, which everything points to that, is why he died for us is to give us relationship with the Father, and then through that gives us relationship with other people, right? Like, John 17, which we should put down because the next thing we're gonna talk about is scripture, but John 17 is a major one, which is the high priestly prayer Jesus prays for his disciples and for everyone who believes in the message that the disciples bring to the world; is that we would be one. That we'd be unified just as Christ and God are unified. [Jennifer] Yeah, but before we move on to the scripture section, I had some things I wanted to share about the values. So, 'cause this is all about brain-dumping and just getting out of our minds and heart what we believe to be true about our family, to build up this mission statement. So, words like 'creativity'. I feel like we value. Inspiring each other towards greatness. [Aaron] Can I throw in a word? Creating. [Jennifer] Creating, okay. [Aaron] I mean, we've done the self-publishing thing, the blogging, the social media. It's just kind of been a part of what we do. So, creativity, inspiring, but we also create. It's part of us. [Jennifer] Mmm, that's good. [Aaron] Elliot loves to draw, Olive loves to paint. [Jennifer] Yeah. That's good, lots of Lego building. [Aaron] Lots of Lego building! By the way the Lego thing you built yesterday is awesome. It's like this huge city. [Jennifer] It was supposed to be Bleecker St. in New York. [Aaron] Okay. [Jennifer] I just didn't get to finish it. [Aaron] I didn't see the signs. [Jennifer] Oh, go back and look at it. So yeah, some of the things that we value are experiences where, being able to go to a museum if we're near one, or-- [Aaron] I feel like that falls under adventure, adventurous, right? [Jennifer] Okay. Yeah, but it's like learning experiences. [Aaron] Well, put learning then. That's a good word. [Jennifer] Learning. So, whether that's-- [Aaron] Learning is a big thing-- [Jennifer] Experiences or books, resources, pretty much anything I can get my hands on for us or for the kids that encourages growth and investment. [Aaron] All the educational films like Marvels, Avengers, and Iron Man, those are really for us. [Jennifer] For us. [Aaron] For us, yeah. Yeah, I think learning is a great word. So, under value... [Jennifer] Does food count? [Aaron] Oh, you know, can I say wisdom? [Jennifer] Wisdom, yeah. [Aaron] And you actually should put food on there because that is a huge thing for us. Food. We love food! [Jennifer] Not just food. [Aaron] God loved food. [Jennifer] I know but the experience of food, like the actual tasting good and figuring out what flavors are there, but then the experience of eating with people. [Aaron] Yeah, so actually food kinda encompasses all these. [Jennifer] Okay so, on our family mission statement it's gonna say, "The Smith family", and then in bold right beneath that-- [Aaron] "Food." [Jennifer] 'Food'. [Aaron] That'll be our... It's short. [Jennifer] Semi-calling Gods word. So, it's like both, right? It's like the Word of Life. [Aaron] Well, God's Word is the bread of life. So, it just literally all fits in. Everyone here that's listening, our mission statement is [Jennifer And Aaron] Food. [Jennifer] This is how our conversations really go in real life, to you guys. We're not makin' this up for you. [Aaron] I'm pretty sure I can fit every single one of those things into food. [Jennifer] We'll figure it out. [Aaron] Yeah. Wisdom, what I mean by wisdom is, wisdom is the application of knowledge. [Jennifer] Yup. [Aaron] 'Cause you can know lots of things and do nothing with it. [Jennifer] Not ever implement it. [Aaron] Yeah, wisdom is like, "Oh, I actually know how "to navigate this kind of relationship, "therefore I'm going to navigate it that way." Or, "I know that I should keep my mouth shut "in this situation", so I could choose to act on the knowledge or not. So, wisdom is taking the Word of God, taking life experiences and letting it teach us and then saying, "Oh, last time we experienced that. "Let's make a different decision this time." [Jennifer] Mmm. [Aaron] We were actually just talking about this in the car. All the experiences the God's given us, hard ones that have taught us things. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] That a lot of people won't ever experience. [Jennifer] Right, but everyone listening has their own set of experiences that-- [Aaron] That no one else will have. [Jennifer] No one else will have. [Aaron] That God wants to use to teach them wisdom. [Jennifer] Yeah, but wisdom is saying, "Okay, I'm going "to learn from that, and not just learn from it, but"-- [Jennifer] Apply it. [Aaron] "I'm gonna apply the knowledge to my life now "regardless of how easy it is or how it feels to my flesh." [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] So, wisdom is a big one. [Jennifer] Okay, cool. So, moving on, were there any more scriptures that you wanted to share? [Aaron] Think of some scriptures... [Jennifer] One, you brought up generosity earlier, and so one of the scriptures that came to my mind was 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it says, "The point is this: whoever sows sparingly "will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully "will also reap bountifully. "Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, "not reluctantly or under compulsion, "for God loves a cheerful giver." So, I just thought about that. [Aaron] That's a great one. Cheerful giver. [Jennifer] I think it defines how we give, which I love. [Aaron] Yeah we don't ever, I mean we try not to give out of compulsion. As in, "Oh, we must do this!" No, we'd be like, "We want to do this." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] So, that's a good one. Another one I think of is the Great Commission in Mathew 28, where Jesus literally tells the church what it's job is. It says, Mathew 28:18, "And Jesus came and said to them, ""All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son "and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe "all that I have commanded you. "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." [Jennifer] I love that last portion. [Aaron] Yeah, and we can take this as our individual mandates, but really it's the mandate for the church as a whole, 'cause there's all these different functioning parts. [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] Discipling, evangelism, teaching-- [Jennifer] Baptizing. [Aaron] Baptizing, all these different things, and we sometimes get to do all of them, and sometimes get to just play at planting or watering. [Jennifer] A portion of it, mm-hmm. [Aaron] It's what the church's job is and I think it should be what our job is. [Jennifer] I feel like if I could summarize that whole verse, it would say, "to make Him known", you know? [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Like, to know Him and to make Him known. That's such a big-- [Aaron] Put that down. That's a awesome thing, make Him known. I think that should definitely be in our statement because that is our life. We want our children to do that. [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] We want our children to know Him. [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] And then we want our children to make Him known. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Is our desire. [Jennifer] Okay, so we want to encourage you guys that as you do jump into experiencing this process of creating a family mission statement, to go to scripture, to see where your family values line up according to His Word, because it is foundational to how we live our lives and do what we do. This was just to give you guys a glimpse into the behind the scenes, Aaron and Jen, and how we communicate through things like this. Being able to share your vision for your family and life, being able to come up with, and create a family mission statement. It's supposed to be a unifying experience of togetherness, intimacy, understanding one another, identifying "who are we" and "what are we doing"? [Aaron] Yeah, "Who are the Smiths?" [Jennifer] Well, "who are they listening, who are you?" And kinda just build this missions statement to look forward to sharing it with your family. [Aaron] Yeah, and we're not done with this. We are going to on our own, now, finish this up; but this was our getting started. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] We started it out. We're glad that you got to join us on this candid conversation of us trying to think out "who we are and what we're about". [Jennifer] Yeah. I did want to share a couple practical things. When you do do a family mission statement, based off of what I've seen and you guys have probably seen too. Some fun ways to have this experience and share it with each other is use a whiteboard, or get some poster paper, or a pen and paper, or like we just did, use your computer, your phone, whatever it takes to make those notes. You can brain-dump and then cross stuff out as you go, but have fun with it. Also, some examples of making it visible in the home. I have some people say, "In this house", and then they list all their words. [Aaron] So, once we're done with it we can put this up somewhere so we're always seeing, "Hey, look what we... "We're not acting the way we say we're gonna act." [Jennifer] Exactly. Some people do the last name in bold at the top and then share the core values or the mission statement. Some people put it in a frame. Some people put it on script, on canvas. There's so many different ways that you can visibly show it in your home and the great thing about that is-- [Aaron] Tattoos, that's a really good one, right? [Jennifer] Just tattoo it on our backs? [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] No, but this is a great thing, like you said, to be mindful of how we operate as a family. We can even share as our kids get older, and teach them through it like, "Hey, we're the Smith's and we do hard things. "See it says it right there." So, those are just some things and we wanted to encourage you guys in that. [Aaron] Yeah, and I hope you had fun with us, too. We had fun. We're gonna finish it up, we'll probably do it on a date night or over the next... It doesn't have to be done right away, right. It's something that we can evolve with us. [Jennifer] It's a work in progress and so many people who have shared theirs with ours have said, "It's still a work in progress, "and you can change it and alter it as you go." Remember, you can incorporate your family, your kids and everyone to participate in it, but we did wanna challenge you guys with doing it. Even if it's just the initial go at it like we just did. [Aaron] Start it on your next date night. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] That's the reason, you're like, "Oh, we have to go "do our mission statement. "Oh, we'll need a babysitter! "Let's go do this." [Jennifer] Have fun, have fun, have fun! [Aaron] Yeah, and then invite your kids into it also. Not on date night. Go to date night, start it, come home, invite them in afterwards, or on another day. [Jennifer] And you guys don't need a specific set of questions to figure out. What we just did is we just said, "What are some phrases "and words that define our family, "of what we know of our family already?" [Aaron] We just started. [Jennifer] We just did it. Ask each other hard questions. [Aaron] Cool, so we like to end our episodes with a prayer, and so, Jennifer, would you pray for us? [Jennifer] Sure. Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of marriage. May we continue to walk in obedience to Your Word as we seek to fulfill Your will for our lives and our marriage. We pray, we would consider the purpose You have for our marriage and we pray we will work together to communicate what our family mission statement is. We pray we would humbly submit it before You and that it would become a pillar in our family and in our life, that reminds us what we are doing and where we are headed. May this family mission statement build up according to Your core values, be an anchor for our marriage and family, motivating us to live our lives on purpose. May the experience of considering and building our family mission statement be a time of togetherness intimacy and understanding. Thank you for the hope You give us every day. May we honor You with our lives. In Jesus name, Amen. [Aaron] Amen. So, we just want to thank every one for joining us this week and listening to this episode. I hope you had fun with us. It was a lot of fun for us, as I said earlier. But go, start a mission statement with your spouse and with your family, and see what happens. See how it focuses you. You might end up finding out that you're participating in things that don't even line up with what you guys believe as a family. That might be cool. Or you might realize that there's opportunities out there that you could be tapping into because of it. We just wanted to thank you. We look forward to having you next week, and if you have not yet went to shop.marriageaftergod,com and picked up a copy of our new book, "Marriage After God", we'd love to invite you to do so. We thank you for everything. You guys are awesome. All the reviews, all of the comments and stuff we get on our social media, and just all the listens. You guys listening to these podcasts, we just so appreciate you guys. We look forward to having you next week. See you later. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes, also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Join the Marriage After God Movement! Thousands have already said yes and we want to invite you to join them. Learn More Here http://marriageaftergod.com Is love something that we can fall in and out of? Can I still be in love if I don't feel like it? What if I'm not happy in my marriage anymore? If I fell into love once can I fall into love again with someone else? READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna be tackling the question, can you fall out of love in marriage? Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. We just wanna invite you at the end of the podcast or anytime, really, to leave us a star rating and a review. That helps other people find our podcast, and we also love reading those reviews. So if you wanna take a minute, and again, the easiest way to do that is just to hit one of the stars at the bottom of the app, and that will just give us a rating right there, or you can leave us a text review. We love reading those, so we just wanna invite you to do that. [Jennifer] Another way you can support the podcast is by shopping on our online store, shop.marriageaftergod.com. We have a ton of resources that we've wrote for you guys, including some prayer books, but also, I wanna take a minute to highlight our newest book that we wrote for you, Marriage After God. In fact, today's episode, we're gonna be sharing from Gary Thomas's book, but he read Marriage After God, and this is what he had to say about it: "Marriage After God is not your typical marriage book. "Rather than focus on the common symptoms "of marriage dysfunction and lack of intimacy, "Marriage After God dives into and focuses "on the root causes: the need for faith, biblical truth, "fellowship, ministry, and God-ordained vision. "The Smiths take the wise path of urging us "to grow a better marriage by focusing first "on growing closer to God." [Aaron] Yeah, so we just wanna invite you to pick up a copy of that. We wrote it to encourage your marriage, to find out what God's purpose for your marriage is, and we believe God has a purpose for every one of us in the body, especially your marriage. So please pick up a copy of that book today, and we'd love to get it in your hands. [Jennifer] All right, as always, we're gonna jump into our icebreaker question. Aaron, why don't you start by answering this? What is your favorite game or activity to do with the kids right now? [Aaron] I think I really like wrestling on the ground with the kids. They all climb on top of me. Partly, it lets me lay down for a little bit. Or building forts with our huge, big couch pillows. I think that's awesome. With Elliott specifically, I like practicing drawing. We put on a YouTube show and learn how to draw a dragon or a dinosaur or something like that, and that's a lot of fun. [Jennifer] Yeah, some other games that I would say we've been really into lately is Blokus or Blokus, I don't really know how to say that. [Aaron] Oh yeah, I just played with that them. [Jennifer] So that's super fun, super easy to catch onto, and we've been playing Battleship a lot. [Aaron] Oh, that's a good one. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But he gets frustrated when I win. [Jennifer] Everybody gets frustrated when they don't win. So we're working through some of those things, but yeah, those are some games. [Aaron] That was a good question. [Jennifer] That we love with the kids right now. [Aaron] So before we get into our topic, discussing whether or not we can fall out of love in our marriage, I wanna read a quote from Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, on page 157. "The opposite of biblical love isn't hate; it's apathy. "To stop moving toward our spouse "is to stop loving him or her. "It's holding back from the very purpose of marriage." [Jennifer] Well, I feel like that answers the question right there. [Aaron] Yeah, and well, it's a great start to the conversation, because I feel like people might think, of course, yeah, you can't fall in and out of love, but that's kind of where our world's gone, in the secular world and in the Christian world, and we see it often in emails we get, in messages we get on our social media. We just thought it's a very pertinent topic to bring up with our communities. It's something that we've had to deal with in our own marriage, just feeling that like, well, maybe this isn't gonna work, maybe this isn't right, and just maybe dispel some of the lies about it, think biblically and clearly about it, so that those that might be feeling this way can think better and pursue God in the decision. [Jennifer] Yeah. So, when I thought about this topic to discuss today, the first thing that came to my mind is we need to be aware of the things we're saying, the phrases that we use to describe the life that we're living, the things that we're choosing. And so I just kind of went back to the beginning of like, okay, so where did this phrase come from? What does it mean? [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause we grew up, this is like. [Jennifer] This is what we know. [Aaron] I wanna fall in love. Everyone wants to fall in love. [Jennifer] Yep, or people ask you, oh, when did you fall in love with each other? [Aaron] Right, like it was a day. [Jennifer] Yeah. So, I Googled where this phrase came from, and Wikipedia says this: "falling in love is the development of strong feelings "of attachment and love, usually toward another person. "The term is metaphorical, emphasizing that the process, "like the physical act of falling, is sudden, "uncontrollable, and leaves the lover in a vulnerable state, "similar to fall ill or fall into a trap." [Aaron] I love how it uses those negative phrases. [Jennifer] I know, I was gonna say, as I kept looking into this, I found other phrases like fall asleep or fall behind. Someone else likened it to a surprise, like falling down the stairs. [Aaron] Yeah, there are all these negative connotations with falling, which is really unfortunate, that one of the most, supposed to be the most euphoric and most powerful and magical things that we get to experience is love with another person, and we've turned it into, with our common language and how we describe things, it's so weak, in my opinion. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. It kind of strips the beauty of one, knowing what true love is, and then choosing it, because here it's making you sound like it's just happening to you, that there's no control in any of it. [Aaron] Yeah, and I think that one of the traps of the enemy, you know, falling into the trap, like you said, that's he's taken something so beautiful that God invented and created and something that he's given as a gift to his children, and boiled it down. You know, if he can change the terms and the words and the definitions, then he can change the meanings of thing. And so, I think that's the first thing that our listeners can start to think about, is if they fell in love, right, and I know people are really thinking, like, I think you're just going overboard. What's the big deal? It's just a phrase. But it's not just a phrase, because like you said, if we're not aware of the things that we're saying, we don't realize that we define things by the things we say. Words do have meaning, and if we say them over and over and over again, they have meaning, and if we believe them, like, if I believe we fell in love, then it's not hard to believe that we can fall out of love. [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] Because the definition, it's something that happened to me, I had no control over it. We were just in this whirlwind, and oh my gosh, the passions, and you're beautiful, and I love you, and oh, we have similar things that we like, and oh, and the way you think, and you're so funny, and all these things, which are totally good things, and they totally add to my attraction to you or attraction to another person and draw us, and actually do invoke emotions in us and feelings. And those are all given to us by God. But if we boil down love to just those things, those feelings, then the moment those things change, the moment those things disappear, the moment those things that we used to be enamored by now bug us, because that happens. Like, oh, it was so cute the way you would say that one thing, and now that way you say that all the time really bugs me, and I don't like it. [Jennifer] Yeah. So, here's the other just sad, sad part about all of this, is that in marriage, we come up against this very thing that you're talking about, is if things change. So let's say there's hard circumstances, or you really get to know each other after years and years of marriage, and there's just things like, as you said, bug you. If we say that we fell into love with one another and that goes back to this sudden thing that there's no control over, who's to say that we can't fall in love even after we're married? [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] And someone else comes along, and no, I've done it again. I've fallen in love again, but not with you. That's dangerous. [Aaron] Yeah, and you know what, I had no control over it. We've actually heard this. I'm sorry, I love you still, but this other person came along, and they're feeding my love tank. [Jennifer] It becomes a justification for sin, and nobody's taking responsibility. That's shat I'm trying to get at. [Aaron] Right, and I think that's what we wanna talk about in this, and where we're gonna try and go with this, is to take away the decision and the control and the thoughtfulness in love is to take away the power of the love in the first place, of what God's doing. The Bible says that God is love. So he invented it, he designed it. It's his creation. It's something that, something that he is love. It existed with him. And so for us to boil it, like, oh, I fell in love, oh, I fell out of love, it's something I go in and out of, and it's not a choice. It's just whatever I feel at the moment. And what's so dangerous about that is the Bible tells us to not operate in our feelings. That's what's called carnal. Our carnal flesh is our feelings, the chemical reactions in our brain, which is exactly what feelings are. You get a burst of oxytocin, and you get a burst of all these different hormones that are good hormones that God created us with, and we define something very spiritual with a very fleshly reaction. And I think that spiritual things definitely bring those emotional reactions, which is why they're good: God made it that way. But love's not defined by those things. And a perfect example is if we're thinking about falling in and out of love, or when things are hard, I must not be in love anymore, or they must not love me anymore, or maybe they've fallen out of love with me or we're falling out of love with each other, I just think of Christ on the cross, you know? He goes into the Garden of Gethsemane, and he prays, Lord, let this cup pass from me. And he's praying that the suffering he was about to partake, that he was about to be obedient to endure, was for his bride. And he's saying, I don't know if I can do this, but I'm not gonna choose. Lord, you chose. And his will was that he went to the cross, because salvation was at hand, for the body of Christ, for the world. And so, if we look at Christ, would he fall out of love when he's on the cross? He's like, oh, this is too hard. I just don't love them anymore. No, he loved us beyond what his flesh wanted, and that's exactly what I wanna talk about. The power of love goes way beyond how we feel, because there was times that you didn't feel in love with me. [Jennifer] No, definitely. In those early years, when our circumstances were really hard, yeah, I didn't feel very much in love with you, and it even brought us to a point of seriously contemplating divorce and separation, but there were other factors involved. Walking in sin, just choosing to isolate from each other time and time again led to that in our marriage. [Aaron] Yeah, we tried. We stayed together. We were friends, to an extent, and there was areas of our marriage, intimacy, sexual intimacy, that wasn't exactly how we wanted it to be. It was actually the opposite of what we wanted. And it led to thoughts in us, sinful thoughts, and I remember me thinking, man, I should have experimented before I got married. I should have had more partners before I got married. [Jennifer] And I remember having thoughts of, well, maybe we're just not compatible, physically, emotionally, mentally. I just thought like, we're not for each other. [Aaron] And wasn't there even a season where you looked outside of our marriage? You didn't go actually do anything, but you desired? [Jennifer] Oh, for sure. [Aaron] Another man, and your heart wasn't with me? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And that is what happens when how we feel is defining what we do. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I wanna get to some of those things that come up, reasons why people would feel as though they fell out of love with one another, because I think it's good for us to acknowledge them and address them, because we're all experiencing this thing called marriage, and if we're not willing to confront the hard things, then maybe our hearts would be prone to wanna avoid them or not confront them, and that's not good. [Aaron] Well, and before you get into that, I think the reason, again, going back of the beginning of this, of like, love being something that you fall into, it's accidental, it's I had no control over it, it leaves room, because that's what we believe about it, it leaves room for us to use that lack of control, like, it has nothing to do with me; therefore, when the things we're about to talk about come up, well, I'm just not in love anymore, and that, you know, that's what it is. You can't force me to love someone I don't love anymore. Unfortunate, but that's how it is. Thanks, God. [Jennifer] And that it's his fault for making us wrong or something. [Aaron] Yeah, or taking away the love or whatever it is, and now we have an excuse that's outside of us. Well, see, I mean, too bad I don't love him anymore. I would love to still love him, but it's just not working out. It's not where my heart's at anymore, and I'm moving on. And so it leaves a back door that you don't have to be responsible to go through. You just get brought through it, without any of your own control, when in reality, that's not true. [Jennifer] Yeah, we want everyone to hear this right now. We have an obligation to each other. [Aaron] It's called oneness. It's called a covenant. It's not just an earthly contract. It's not just like a, well, if you fulfill your end of the bargain, I'll fulfill mine. That's actually not what biblical marriage looks like, sounds like, smells like at all. It's a choice that we make to walk in, 'cause Christ chose to walk in his relationship, going to the cross regardless of how we responded to him. And that's our example. It's exactly the picture we get in Ephesians five. Like, hey, bride, you're the church. Hey, husband, you're Christ. You're the picture of Christ in this marriage, and this is how you act. And so, as long as it's something that happens to us, we have no control over it, we have no responsibility to it. [Jennifer] So, I've gotta bring this up real quick. This isn't in our notes, and it's not the direction we were gonna take it, but I think it's important to ask, and so I'm just gonna put it out there, and then maybe you guys can have a conversation about this with your spouses. We can even talk about it later. You talked about love being a choice. You talked about it being a powerful experience and not something that we don't have control over or based on feelings. My question is, do we fall in and out of love with God? Because I would look at Christian culture and say there's a lot of people that base their relationship with God off of how they feel. [Aaron] And what they get. [Jennifer] Or what they get out of it. [Aaron] Yeah, what they believe they deserve. [Jennifer] And so you see this tendency of flowing in and out of God during seasons of, I'm for him, I'm not, I'm for him, I'm not. And so I think that it's important to consider this question in light of our relationship with him. [Aaron] Well, before we move on to some of the reasons why people might feel like they fell out of love, let's talk about how we fell in and out of love with God, because of our marriage, because of the things that we were feeling and going through and experiencing, the hardships within our sexual relationship, the hardships with the sins that we were choosing to walk in and being unrepentant of, and walking in total immaturity and bitterness and anger that man, you had your own relationship dealings with God where you were just angry at him 'cause you were like, God, I deserve a good marriage. [Jennifer] Yeah, I felt like I did all the right things to equal a good marriage, like it was some sort of formula, so when I didn't get it, I was mad at him, because I believed that he was powerful enough to just make everything perfect, give me everything I want, and it be beautiful, and I believed this. I truly believed that. It wasn't just for my benefit that I had a perfect marriage, that it would be so that we can do ministry together for God. [Aaron] It was good reasons, yeah. [Jennifer] Yeah, there's always good reasons. [Aaron] Well, and we wanna be happy. We wanna have joy in our marriage. But this relationship with God was built on what he owed you. And like you said, you fell in and out of love with God the same way you fell in and out of love with me. I couldn't give you what you thought you deserved in a husband. I wasn't giving it to you. It's not that I couldn't give it to you. I was treating you the way you thought you deserved to be treated. I wasn't acting the way you thought I should act. I wasn't speaking the way you thought I should speak. And so your love with me was conditional. It was based on those things. Your love with God was conditional. And I was the same way. I thought that, all I wanted was a wife that I could love and be with and have sex with and enjoy and that would go and do amazing things for God together, and none of that felt like it was real. I was like, okay, God. I wait for marriage, I save myself, I try and be pure, which, in reality, I wasn't. My addiction to pornography, my other things that I was dealing with. I had a picture of who I was. I thought I was better than I was. And then I'm like, God, you owe me this thing, and you're not giving it to me. And so my relationship with God was transactional. Like, hey, I did this thing; now you do this thing. What are you doing? So I think that's a great thing you brought up, that we think our relationship with God is something outside of what we choose and something that happens to us, or our feelings. Like, I feel close to God, which is so dangerous, because I would imagine there's times when Paul, naked and beat in prison, did not feel close to God. I would imagine when Joseph was in the pit after being thrown in there by his brothers and then sold into slavery and then lied about by the wife and then put in prison and forgotten about by the baker, or the cupbearer, I believe there was times he did not feel close to God, but the truth would be is God was close and was doing something very specific in all of those situations. [Jennifer] Greater than what they could even have imagined. [Aaron] And so, we don't get pictures in those stories of them saying where's God, where are you. God was close, whether they felt him close or not. And that is the reality, that God is so close to us. He's not far off, even when we feel like he's far off. [Jennifer] Was he close to us when we were enduring those four hard years of our marriage? [Aaron] He was probably closer then. When I look back, I'm like, oh, God was there every moment. [Jennifer] But did it feel like it? [Aaron] No, it didn't feel like it. It felt like I was praying and he was just ignoring me. It felt like I was being picked on, or that he was being vindictive, like laughing at me. That's how I felt sometimes. But that's not true at all. So just like we're talking about this falling in and out of love, what I felt about God was false. My feelings were lying to me. [Jennifer] What changed? How did you go from that to being able to choose to love God and remain faithful to him, no matter what? [Aaron] Him confronting me with the truth that what he says is true and what I feel is false. I brought up Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He brought that story to my attention, and said, look what Jesus did for you. And then he was like, are you not willing then to do the very little thing of just loving your wife, even if you can't get what you want from her? Like, what it cost Christ on the cross is infinitely heavier than what it's gonna cost you to say yes to your bride and keep going. And he just revealed the fallacy in me that my feelings are true and that that's how I'm gonna dictate where I'm gonna go and the direction I go and what I believe, and they're wrong. The Bible tells us, and we'll get to that scripture in a minute, just to not walk in the flesh, but to walk in the Spirit. [Jennifer] Let's talk more about that. So, we're gonna first go through a brief list of why people feel as though they "fall," air quotes here, "out of love." [Aaron] So going back to things that don't feel good, and especially when it's in conjunction with your relationship with your spouse. So tough times. [Jennifer] Yeah, hard circumstances. [Aaron] Like, financial situations and pain and suffering and confusion and those sorts of things, crazy things like loss of children. The hard things can immediately make us not feel good. And you know what? When we don't feel good, Christ wants us to lean on him. He wants us to have his strength and his peace, you know, that surpasses all understanding, and when we don't go to God for those things and when we look to our spouse to fulfill them, which we did that. [Jennifer] Yeah, it's so dangerous. I remember feeling so disappointed in you and in our relationship, because you couldn't do the things that I wanted you to be able to do, which only Christ could do. [Aaron] To fulfill those desires in your heart or to take away the fears that you had, the insecurities, and only God gets to play that role in our life, because you know what, I'm a human. [Jennifer] Yeah, you will fail me. [Aaron] And I remember I tell you this, I even told you this when I asked you to be my wife. I said I'm going to fail you. [Jennifer] Yeah, I should have listened. [Aaron] I warned you. I gave you a little, what do you call it. [Jennifer] Framework, I don't know. [Aaron] Yeah, I gave you a pre-warning. This is what you're getting into. [Jennifer] Okay, so yeah, tough times definitely. Needs not being met. So I'm over here thinking, no, I need this from you and being convinced that I can't continue on in my part until I get what I need. [Aaron] Right, so in our situation specifically, we couldn't have sex. [Jennifer] Yeah, it was painful. [Aaron] And that was very painful. [Jennifer] For me. [Aaron] And I'm thinking, in my mind and in my heart, in my spirit, okay, the one thing that my spouse is supposed to be able to give me directly to me physically is sex, and she can't give it to me. Well then, I'm validated in my sin over here, or I'm allowed to be angry like this, or God, how dare you? And so my love for you was dictated by what you can do for me or what you're not doing for me, and vice versa. You put me on that pedestal of holding you up emotionally and being strong for you when you weren't strong, which husbands should do, but I'm not the main source of that. [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] I can never fulfill that. That's called idolatry. We can actually put our spouses in a position of God, and what happens is because they're not God, you immediately translate that, we translate that to, oh, they must not love me. [Jennifer] But God is love. [Aaron] God is love, yeah. [Jennifer] Your spouse isn't love, although your spouse is called to love you. God is love. He's the only one that can truly fulfill that. [Aaron] So needs not being met spiritually, emotionally, physically, and I just wanna mention that there are some relationships. I think of veterans that have been hurt physically, or mentally, and they might not be able to fulfill a certain marital role, physically and emotionally and mentally. Does that mean they don't love you? Does that mean you've fallen out of love? No, that's a situation that God's allowed to happen, and that has to be navigated through the Word of God, through the Holy Spirit and patience and perseverance and recognize that those things don't define whether or not you're in love with your spouse or not. And that's a reality for some people. There's some people that will permanently never be able to have sex. [Jennifer] And that's just one thing. [Aaron] That's one thing, yeah. [Jennifer] There's other people who can't walk or can't talk. There's a lot of things. [Aaron] There's people that deal with postpartum depression, wives, moms that go through postpartum depression and might not be able to give emotionally, and that's gonna take a husband to step up more, be like, well, I'm gonna love more right now. I'm not gonna make them feel like I'm abandoning them and skipping out. [Jennifer] Yeah. Okay, so another one would be desiring a different kind of life because of unmet expectations, and you kind of touched on this before, but I struggled with this. I felt like I had these expectations of what marriage should be like. [Aaron] Yeah, what our life should be like, where we should be. [Jennifer] And after years of not receiving that or them being unmet, I started desiring a different kind of life. And that can easily feed a wandering soul. [Aaron] Right, so we fell in love, and we individually had unique pictures of what our relationship would look like, what our life would look like, what our marriage would look like. And so what we do is, well, so I have this picture, picture A, and my marriage is picture Z. Oh, we must not be in love. This must not be right. Something's wrong here. Let's throw this out, start over. And so we look over the fence, or we look other places. So, and this leads to happiness. [Jennifer] Desiring happiness. [Aaron] Desiring happiness. The Bible doesn't promise happiness, but being a Christian should guarantee, if we choose it, joy. [Jennifer] Right, which is more powerful. [Aaron] Which is more powerful, because Paul, when he was naked and beat and in prison, had joy. All the disciples, all of the missionaries and martyrs had joy amidst terrible things. But happiness is not something necessarily promised. Now, happiness can be a fruit of joy, but does lack of happiness equate to lack of love? Like, we're no longer in love, I'm not happy anymore. I wanna speak about this happiness for a second, Jennifer. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I hear it all the time. People say, doesn't God want be to be happy? [Aaron] Yeah, well not just doesn't God. They actually, and I don't know who has taught them this, but they literally, they start their message off to us about why they're leaving their husband with saying, God wants me to be happy, and I'm not happy. Therefore, I'm leaving. And so, what they've done is they've literally turned their disobedience and their sin into approval by God, because they've equated happiness to God's will. And that's not true. [Jennifer] Is there a scripture in the Bible that says God wants us to be happy? [Aaron] No. Not to my knowledge. But there's plenty about joy in all circumstances. The joy of the Lord is our strength, and that's something that can come amidst, so if happiness is God's will for us, take that truth, take that gospel, to all of the people suffering through terminal cancer. [Jennifer] Or famine. [Aaron] Or yeah, hunger, or loss of children or worse. I can't even come up with all the situations that a Christian might go through, or even a person, and go to them and saying, hey, God wants you to be happy, and then the moment they're not happy, God doesn't love me, or I'm outside God's will. It's a false gospel. The happiness is good, and it comes. But I think joy, the Bible talks of joy, which is a fruit of the spirit. Happiness is not a fruit of the spirit. So if we equate, again, if we take words and we equal them to other things, like happiness equals love, happiness equals God's will, the moment we're not happy, boom, we're no longer in love, we're not in God's will. We can make all sorts of crazy decisions based off of that equation. And it's just wrong. [Jennifer] So, moving down the list, we have two more. One is just experiencing overall discontentment in life. [Aaron] Right, I'm not happy with what I have. This isn't what I want, that I want more. [Jennifer] Just constantly, like you're playing that mental reel over and over and over again about all the things that make you not content, and then desiring a pain-free or comfortable life, which I think everybody, at the root of their heart, wants a pain-free life. But is that a reality? [Aaron] It's not that we need to pursue that. I don't think that's what our goal is in life. But if our goal is in our marriage, if that's our definition of a good, healthy, loving marriage, 100% of marriages are gonna be let down. But that's why we see such a high divorce rate in the church and in the world, because we've defined love with all of these terms. Comfort, happiness, fulfillment, contentment. And if I don't feel those things, boom, I must not be in love anymore. [Jennifer] Okay, so what's the bottom line? [Aaron] The bottom line is love was never intended to be just a feeling. God gave us these feelings as a gift to accompany our love, but when those feelings disappeared, love doesn't disappear. It's called the honeymoon phase. Like, you're enamored with your spouse. Everything's new and fresh. But what happens when it's not new wand fresh? What happens when life's boring? [Jennifer] Or hard. [Aaron] What happens when life's hard? Love in this situations should grow. [Jennifer] And endure. [Aaron] Yeah, because they endure. The relationship turns into one of stamina, endurance, perseverance. [Jennifer] I Corinthians 13:7 says love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Not some things, not the few things that I can handle. It's all things. So if we say that we love one another, we have to be able to bear all things and endure all things and have that kind of perseverance. [Aaron] And it comes down to, that's what Christ did. He endured the cross, because he loved us. And that's amazing. Even now in the church age, in the age that we live in now where God's grace and mercy is just poured out on the world and he's being patient, it says that his patience and kindness is to lead us to repentance, talking of love. Why doesn't he just strike us all down, because we are sinners, you know? He's righteous; we're not. But he's patient with us, and his love for us is in such a way that he shows us by example of how we should love, in forgiveness and patience and endurance, because that's what Christ did on the cross. He took the sins of the world, that anyone who believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. That is love, and if Christ can love that way, and this is what God showed me, is if Christ can love you like this, Aaron, what has your wife ever done that's worse than what you or the world has done to me? Nothing. Literally it doesn't matter what you do to me. It's not unforgivable. So I guess I would just say, if love is based on something that we have no control over, something that happens to us, if love is a feeling, then we're literally basing the most beautiful thing that God has ever given us, love, which he is love, it's who he is, and we boiled it down to a fleshly thing. Like, that is a fleeting, like, oh, some might get it, some might not. And I think we should rather look at love as a muscle that needs to be strengthened. [Jennifer] I like that, exercised. [Aaron] Or, actually, here's a better analogy. Love is a seed. You plant a seed, and then you nurture it and you grow it. Our love started, I should say. We didn't fall in love. Our love started back when we were dating, when we were learning each other. [Jennifer] We were attracted to one another. [Aaron] We were attracted. [Jennifer] We chose to spend time with one another. [Aaron] Yeah, back then, our love was so, if you think about it, our love was so immature, because it was based on very vain things, how we looked, how we talked, how we spent time with each other, things that made us laugh. And now, our love is based on. [Jennifer] So much more. [Aaron] Oh my, so much more. Surviving hard things, flourishing in hard things, renewing in the way we think about each other, communication, knowledge. [Jennifer] Ministering to our kids. Ministering to others. [Aaron] Yeah, having children and learning how to become one in our parenting. So our love now is built, it's growing. I wouldn't say it's a big sycamore tree or something. But I would say it's a tree now, where it once was just this seed that could easily be stamped out if we didn't take care of it. So I think that is a more accurate way to take a picture, is that love was something we planted, we chose to plant. Hey, we're gonna take a risk on this seed. We're gonna love this, and let's grow it. So then, if that's the case, then "falling out of love," air quotes again, is really choosing to let the tree die. [Jennifer] Right, which, I mean, going back to that quote by Gary Thomas from Sacred Marriage, biblical love isn't hate; it's apathy. [Aaron] Letting it die. [Jennifer] Letting it die. [Aaron] Stop watering it, stop feeding it, stop giving it sunlight, smother it, and it can even be worse than that, intentionally harming the love because you want out, because you're not happy, and now doing very hateful, wicked things within the marriage. [Jennifer] Being disrespectful, letting your anger lash out. [Aaron] Cheating. [Jennifer] Cheating. [Aaron] Yeah, unfaithfulness with your heart, eyes, physically. [Jennifer] All things that are lack of self-control, because you're not exercising that muscle of self-control. [Aaron] So here's another quote from Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, and it says this: "Christian love is an aggressive movement, "an active commitment. "In reality, we choose where to place our affections," which goes back to, are we gonna choose to nurture our love seed? Feels so weird. But this tree that we're growing together, as we're being weaved together and we're growing this love. And I just love that picture of that. It's an aggressive movement, an active commitment, that we are not going to just whimsically and apathetically see if love continues on without us doing anything, that we're gonna recognize that it's no, no, I'm going to choose again to love you today, and then when something happens, actually, I'm gonna choose right now to love you anyway. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I like that. This quote, you know, when it says in reality, we choose where to place our affections, I think sometimes we can choose to place our affections on what we see outside the marriage. [Aaron] So, let's just give 'em some practical ways, 'cause now we've dispelled it. You don't fall in and out of love. It's a lie the enemy uses to break up marriages all the time, and as mature Christians, we're gonna pursue loving our spouses the biblical way and saying, yes, Lord, I'm gonna choose to love, because you are love, and I wanna love like this. So what are some practical things that the couples listening can start thinking about, start pursuing and saying, oh, we're gonna invest in this seed that we've planted, at whatever point that seed was planted. [Jennifer] Okay, so first thing I would say is intimacy. I think I had this idea in our marriage that intimacy just happened, and it was something that was natural. [Aaron] It was always gonna be magical. [Jennifer] Yeah, I came to find out, it's actually something that needs to be planned for and prepared for. [Aaron] Sought after. [Jennifer] And requires intentionality. And so, I would say, be intentional in pursuing one another in those ways. And intimacy is a lot of different things. It's not just physical. It's also in the way that you communicate and just being thoughtful of one another. [Aaron] Yeah, but intimacy, the physical intimacy cannot be neglected. [Jennifer] Sure, so important. [Aaron] But the emotional intimacy can't be neglected either. [Jennifer] Either, yeah. [Aaron] The Bible, I just wanted to bring this up, it uses the word knew or knowledge when it comes to physical intimacy in the Bible. It says so-and-so knew so-and-so, and it's talking about sex. This intimacy we're talking about, it's radical transparency, radical openness, that you're not afraid to be naked emotionally, naked physically, naked spiritually before your spouse, and that you know each other, and that's a lifelong pursuit. So, and that combats falling out of love, or feeling like you're falling out of love, or in the truth, choosing to not love anymore. [Jennifer] Yeah, and if you do feel like, you know, not that you're apathetic towards one another, but that you just have some isolating tendencies going on in your marriage, be the first one to initiate intimacy. [Aaron] Yeah, go open those doors, go open those windows. Let light in. [Jennifer] Okay, another one is have an eternal perspective and a hope that fuels your heart so that you can persevere. Having a hope for why we're doing this thing called marriage and what we have to look forward to changed the way that we were able to persevere in our relationship. [Aaron] Yeah, and so recognizing that my wife is also my sister in the Lord. Like, the Bible tells us how to interact with our brothers and sisters in Christ. Then I get to see her and say, well, I'm gonna treat her well. She's my closest neighbor, so I'm gonna love her as myself. I'm gonna use the gifts that God's given me to bless her and to serve her. And so if we recognize that, that we are both part of the body, then we're not gonna mistreat and take advantage of and do things that we wouldn't do to another believer. So, another one is discipline yourself in walking faithfully and humbly. [Jennifer] So real quick, I just wanna read one another quote. I know this is a heavy Gary Thomas episode. [Aaron] Well, this book was hugely influential on our marriage. [Jennifer] Yeah, if you guys haven't read Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, you should definitely go grab a copy. But on page 156, it says this: "One of the great spiritual challenges for any Christian "is to become less self-absorbed. "We are born intensely self-focused. "The discipline of Christian marriage "calls us into the Christian reality of sharing "and enjoying fellowship in a uniquely intimate way. "Maintaining an interest in and empathy for someone else "is by no means an easy discipline to maintain, "but it is a vital one. "It is a skill that must be learned." I love this quote, because I think it's so important to recognize that there is discipline required of us, and there's an obligation, like I said earlier, to one another, to love one another, but to also enjoy fellowship with each other, which is what Gary's saying right here, and to maintain an interest for, an empathy for each other, and again, he says this isn't easy, but it is vital, and it's something that we need to learn. Like you said, it's a muscle that we should be exercising. [Aaron] Yeah, a lot of times, the Bible uses the term walk in love. So it's something that you walk out on a daily basis. In I John, it says practice righteousness. So these are things that we get to practice toward each other, with each other, for each other, on a daily basis, on a moment by moment. And even if you're in a super, super hard situation and season of your marriage, you can right now choose to walk in love with your spouse. [Jennifer] And truly, this is walking in maturity. This is what makes us mature, is by choosing to walk this way. [Aaron] Yeah, so again, walking in maturity. I would say be okay with hardship, and ask God how it can be used to mature you, to mature us? So God, this season's hard. God, I don't feel in love. I don't feel close to my spouse. Help me, show me how I should see correctly. Show me where I can change. Show me how I can love my wife still, love my husband still. How can I serve them? Help me do it in your Spirit. And then another one is the last one, actually, is recognize there's something greater at risk. It's what we talk about in the Marriage After God book, is that our marriages are meant for more than just happily ever after. Having a good, strong, healthy, mature, growing, thriving, loving, intimate marriage isn't for that alone. That's not the end. It's the means to the end. The end is that we are witnesses for Christ, that we are preaching the gospel with our words and our lives, that our marriages are pictures of the gospel to the world, that the husband represents Christ, that the wife represents the church, that their relationship represents an unconditional love that Christ had for his church, and how we interact with each other and how we raise our children and how we treat each other. And so, and not just that, but in I Timothy chapter three, it talks about the ministry of an overseer in a church and how it's a noble task, it's a noble thing for any believer to pursue, any man in the church, and it talks about having one wife and managing their home well, and it says, how can you manage the household of God if you can't manage your own home, right? If there's no self-control within me, if there's no love between me and my wife, if my children don't honor me and cherish me, those are things that the Bible says are results of how we choose to walk with our spouse. And our authority, our power, our message gets diluted or destroyed when we don't love that way. When love is something that we can just fall out of, what it essentially is saying is God can just fall out of love. Like, oh, today I don't love you anymore. And that's just false. He is love. He cannot not love us. And so, we need to show that. And so the greater thing that's at risk is the gospel. And when we don't have a correct understanding and definition of love in our marriage and what that looks like, we show an incorrect gospel to the world. And we need to recognize that. [Jennifer] So, the beginning of this episode started with can you fall out of love in marriage. That wouldn't be the right way to say it. It would be, are you choosing to not love your spouse anymore? And so I think that this is a really important topic, and it's something that we should address, even if maybe you're not feeling this way. If you feel like you love your spouse and you're walking the way you should be biblically, I think it's still important to address some of these things and these practical things that we've brought up and just see, you know, evaluate your marriage and see, are you walking the way that God wants you to be walking, and are you choosing love, regardless of your circumstances and regardless of anything else that's going on? [Aaron] Yeah, and maybe you're not, like Jennifer said, not at that place of not in love anymore, but are you choosing apathy? Are you just not caring? [Jennifer] Are you being lazy? [Aaron] Yeah, are you being lazy? And I think that's something that we should be aware of and repent of if we are. If we're being lazy in our marriage, then we're not loving. We're kind of being self-focused and hoping that our husband or our wife is gonna love us the way we wanna be loved, but we're not gonna give the love the way we wanna be loved. I just don't think that's the way a Christian should walk, and I think we need to, I mean, I'm guilty of this sometimes and need to change. Like, I'm being lazy, I'm gonna step up, I love you. Let's work on this, let's grow, let's water this tree. [Jennifer] I love it. Okay, we wanna invite you guys to join us in prayer. Dear Lord, may we always choose love. May we always have hearts that are motivated by love to be unified, pursuing intimacy and peace in marriage. Thank you for equipping us and empowering us by your Holy Spirit to choose to love unconditionally and sacrificially. We pray against our flesh from getting in the way, and we pray against our selfish ways. Please continue to sanctify us and transform us so that we would be more like you. Protect our marriage from the threats of the enemy and his evil desire to tear us down. Lord, please help us to be unified as one and help us to love each other in the way we interact with each other every day. May our commitment to remain steadfast in our love for each other glorify you in our marriage. In Jesus's name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. Hey, we just wanna thank everyone for listening this week, and we pray that this episode blessed you. We pray that it's gonna cause some good conversations, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

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How often do you get complaints from the inside sales team about the outside sales team, and vice versa? “I can’t…I didn’t know...” Every business experiences the challenge of what a salesperson says and actually happens. It’s a constant struggle to make sure the sales team correctly relays what’s going to be done and the team accurately fulfills what the salesperson sells. How can you bridge the gap between inside and outside sales teams? Today, I am talking with Jennifer Stoops, senior vice president at Park Avenue Properties. She shares how external and internal sales teams can work together effectively. After all, they’re on the same team working toward the same goal. Work together, instead of separately! You'll Learn... [04:55] Definition and difference between inside and outside sales. [06:22] Three Cs: Collaboration, contribution, and communication. [08:49] Find a good personality fit for property management. [14:09] Red flags to watch out for during hiring process. [16:50] Align goals to facilitate and mitigate hatred, animosity, and frustration. [22:06] Involve property manager for transparency and transition with sales process. [24:45] Metrics to Measure: New doors and retention. [27:40] Client and Customer Retention: Change how you sell to them to build a long-term relationship. [28:20] Park Avenue Properties plans to move to one system, but now uses Knack, an internally produced business development tool. [31:00] Gamify sources of motivation (recognition or money); make a grueling job fun. [35:30] Seek buy in and feedback from clients; what problem can you solve for them? Tweetables Three Cs: Collaboration, contribution, and communication. Metrics to Measure: New doors and retention. A property manager is conflict resolution all the time. Involve property manager for transparency and transition with sales process. Resources Park Avenue Properties Jennifer Stoops’ Email Address Jennifer Stoops’ Phone Number: 704-334-2626 NARPM Zoom Zoho Klipfolio GatherKudos DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jennifer: There is an integration of the property manager pretty early on because otherwise, business development has established this great relationship in the beginning, promised the world, and in comes the property manager who's like, “I'm sorry, your property has been on the market now for 30 days, but we're going to have to lower the rate.” Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to The DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to grow property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor. Open up iTunes, find The DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I'm your host, property management growth hacker Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal and of course DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's episode, I am hanging out with a bubbly, fantastic, wonderful lady named Jennifer Stoops. Jennifer, welcome to the show. Jennifer: Hi Jason. Thank you for having me. I appreciate the invite. Jason: It’s great to have you here. I'm sure we're going to go off on some tangents here because that's just how you and I talk. We're going to be talking about bridging the gap between inside and outside sales. Jennifer is part of a company called Park Avenue Properties and those watching this instead of listening, can see this big sign behind her. Jennifer, tell everybody a bit about who Jennifer is and give us a little bit of back story on you. Jennifer: Interestingly enough, when I moved to North Carolina in early 2007, I interviewed with John Bradford. I just got my real estate license here in North Carolina and interviewed with John in March of 2007. It is the only job I have had since I lived in North Carolina. I actually graduated with a four-year degree. I'm from Buffalo, New York. I graduated with a four-year degree and I went to work at a dental practice of all things. I had no idea that I even remotely wanted to get into the dental field but she was looking for a business manager. My degree was in business and communications. I put myself through school so I couldn't go for my MBA right away. It was just too costly at the time. After working in this pediatric dental office for about six months, the dentist sat me down and she said, “Would you consider going back to school?” and I was like, “Well sure, for what?” and she said, “We'd like for you to be a hygienist with us,” and she said, “Your personality is better with the patients than doing your insurance stuff,” and I said, “Sure.” I am a retired dental hygienist turned property manager, long story short. I’ve always had an interest in real estate but coming from Buffalo, New York, it was not a terribly lucrative field there. Nobody was moving to Buffalo, they're all moving out and I ended up doing the same. I started here as the first property manager. I've been here almost 12 years. I just worked my way up. Jason: When you started there, how many doors did the company manage? Jennifer: At that time, probably 30-ish. John and his aunt were working at the company at that time. She did the books. She was also licensed. John had actually gotten his real estate license on the side. He was a sales executive at IBM. The 30-ish properties we were managing were a combination of his and business colleagues. He came from IBM and ExxonMobil background. It was a combination of those folks and we've just grown from there. Jason: Where are you guys at now? Give people a little bit of perspective. Jennifer: We are currently at just about 1400 doors. Jason: You guys are one of the rare ones that have broken that thousand door threshold. That’s a pretty large outfit that you guys have got going on. My understanding is, John basically lets you run this thing now. Jennifer: Yes, that’s true. It’s probably been about four years actually since he’s been, as he said, at the wheel. It’s been about that long. Jason: One of the challenges that you've seen over the years is this difference between outside and inside sales. Maybe you could explain to those listening that may not be clear on what your definition is of those two things, but what are those and what sort of challenge exist there? Jennifer: In property management outside and inside sales, I think everybody at least has, —whether it's your property manager or otherwise—in our organization, if we’re going to about ours, our outside sales would be business development folks. Those that are calling on owners, potentially visiting the properties. Inside sales are our property managers really. That's the inside counterpart. Previously, before we had grown to where we are today, I would have been considered outside sales as a property manager and we had some support team that would help be sort of inside sales. But in our world today, it's our business development folks and then our property managers internally. Jason: Got it. What is the challenge that you’ve noticed? This is a challenge I think every business has experienced, the difference between what the salesperson is saying and what ends up actually happening. This is a constant struggle in any business, making sure that the sales team is correctly relaying what is actually going to be done and the team actually fulfilling accurately on what the salesperson is selling. Jennifer: Absolutely. I look at it like there's three Cs. There's collaboration, contribution, and communication. Of course, communication being the key to everything. Honestly, we've recognized you have to have all three of those to make it work right. We had even fallen into the trap and it really hasn't been that long that we've been in a mode where we’re weighing this in a little bit better. Internal complaint is always the same. “I cannot get the rent rate that business development promised. I can't honor the contract the way business development wrote it. I didn't know they agreed to these terms and now it’s special circumstances. Now I have to try to go manage. I now have to relay to the owner that they have to do these things to make a property rent-ready.” That would frustrate the internal team. The external team was, go close the deal, get contracts signed, turn it over to the internal team, and move on. There was no further engagement between the two. There was not a lot of collaboration. There was not a lot of communication leading up to the execution of the contract, the terms, the rental rate. We decided we had to change that. That has helped tremendously. We look at it like our complementary roles now. Business development outside has a counterpart inside which is really your property manager. When our business development team is signing on a new property, they are signing it to a property manager internally. You're talking to that homeowner for the first time, so you know if somebody is a little bit more just very, very business. You can probably turn them over to somebody internally that has very similar personalities with multiple property managers here. You may have somebody that's a brand new investor and needs a little bit more hand-holding. You might want to put them in touch with one of the more deliberate, or hand-holding, or soft-spoken individuals internally. The big E person can read that, but you have to get to know your internal team and that doesn't necessarily mean being in the office. There's a lot of firms, including ours, a lot of firms today that have grown. You've got maybe one main office and business development people in various markets, but you have Zoom. We were doing that right now, so you can get to know somebody, learn about them, and really feel connected to them as a teammate utilizing things like technology and stuff like that as well. Jason: What are things that you do as a company then to really make sure that the communication is there, that the collaboration is there, that contribution is focused on? I guess at the foundation, it would start with the right team members. What are some mechanisms that you put in place? How do you identify whether somebody's going to really be a good fit on the property management side, or on the outside sales, or the BDM side? Jennifer: A lot of it has to do with personality. Really, you can ask folks, too. There’s a lot of folks that'll tell you upfront, “I have no business being a forefront in sales. I prefer to be in the background.” Salespeople are historically not ultra-organized. They tend to be very chatty, very social, and folks that are more on the organized side tend to not want to be in sales roles. They feel that it can be very disorganized and they don't enjoy that. We learned that with folks around here. When we have team members, oftentimes too when you're trying to figure out their appropriate roles, you can determine good people when you interview them. We just said the other day, too, we should do this more at the interview process, but we do tend to do it afterwards. We've done some of the shortened versions like the personality profile testing, things like that. It just sort of get engaged. More often than not, people are usually asked about. They'll tell you upfront. But you're right, it is very important to have the right people on the right team. Jason: Yeah. I use a lot of assessments because I'm a nerd when I'm hiring, because I don't want to just go off of my gut. I want something that I can look at that helps me make things real clear. Jennifer: It’s probably much smarter to do it that way. A lot less harder. Jason: I love the idea of just simply asking people. One of my favorite things to ask when interviewing candidates to work at DoorGrow is to simply ask them what they most love doing and what really drains them. A lot of people listening are probably thinking, “Well, nobody's going to be honest. They're just going to say whatever the job is,” so the way that I usually phrase this is I’ll just say I’ll be honest and disclose first like what makes me uncomfortable, what I'm not good at, what drains me, the stuff that makes me feel alive, and that I love doing. I’ll just transparently share that and then I’ll say all these things that I dislike, that's why all these different people on my team have a job. That’s why they're there, because I need them for those roles to support me. Then I’ll ask them, “What drains you?” I usually preface it by just saying, “There's lots of different things that we do in this company,” which is always true. “There's so many different things you could be doing and I know that if I have you do the things you love most, that you are naturally going to do a great job at it, because that is just what you're inclined to do. I’ll never have to motivate you to do it. I won't have to follow-up to make sure you're doing it. You’re just going to do it because you love doing that. I want to make sure I get really clear on what you love because I want this job to be something you love. Tell me what you love and what drains you,” and I usually get a pretty honest answer. Most of the time, they're really honest. I'm surprised how honest they are once I preface all of that, at the things they'll tell me that drain them that they don't like. Sometimes it’s stuff that's in the job description. I go, “Okay, this is maybe not a good fit for that person.” Jennifer: One of the things that I do, like you, you're trying to get honest answers, is I'll ask, “What do you like to do in your spare time?” That can tell you a lot about a person and it’s sort of an ending question to the interview because to your point, you're usually told what you want hear as it pertains to the job description and whatnot. And exactly, we don't want people to take a role that they will not enjoy at the end of the day. It's hard to describe every single thing in any of our roles. In property management, my gosh, there's so many moving parts. But you learn very quickly when you ask somebody, “What do you enjoy doing in your spare time?” If somebody says, “I enjoy quiet time. I enjoy reading. I enjoy time by myself,” that's probably not going to be your salesperson. Jason: Probably inside. Jennifer: Right. Those that are like, “I belong to a charity organization. I'm on a kickball league. I volunteer at this and I sing in a choir,” whatever, that's probably more on your outside team. Jason: Yeah, it makes sense. I like that. That’s clever, asking what they do in their spare time. I think also when you ask just about their daily life and what they do in their spare time, they also reveal some of their propensities towards either organization, or towards maybe things that are more driven activities, which might be more outside sales. They’re more driven towards activities. I think that's clever. What are some big red flags to somebody that’s just a really bad fit for outside sales or might not be good at communication, contribution, or collaboration? Jennifer: For outside sales, it is the folks that are, “I prefer to work by myself. I prefer to work independently. I don't like to talk on the phone.” They get nervous with having to speak to customers. There are certain little things that’ll come out when you learn that because this is development. In any organization, there's a lot of not only talking to the customer but branding whatever company it is. Maybe you and I were both at the same conference. You're out there, I'm there branding Park Avenue as an attendee, but still representing the brand as you are for yours. When people are not necessarily wanting to be in a social situation or things like that, that's going to be a problem. Those are red flags. Jason: What about red flags on the inside side? You're looking for a candidate for the inside that you want them to be a property manager, what are some things to say, “This person's not going to be able to handle this. They’re not going to last in this role,” because that can be a challenging role, dealing with all the maintenance stuff, dealing with upset tenants. It takes a fairly resilient person, I would imagine, to deal with that. Jennifer: Yeah, it’s that conflict resolution. If people tell you, “I don't enjoy conflict. I struggle with conflict,” that's a big one because a property manager is conflict resolution all the time. You don't need for it to be, but you're a middle man between an owner and a tenant, so you have to. Or if they give you the, “I know the hours are 9-6, but if I left a little early on these days a week...,” or I've had folks say, “Is this job always in the office? Because I don't enjoy being in an office all day every day,” that's like, “Yeah, it kind of is.” That may be a candidate for outside sales, but you still have conflict resolution even in outside sales because that goes back to the collaboration that we've learned. I think business development in outside sales didn't normally have to deal with that. Really, the conflict was coming from the disconnect between inside and outside. But business development folks or outside sales were kind of [...] and the conflict resolution and all the other problem-solving things were coming from the inside team. That was creating the disconnect between the two teams. We're all on the same side, so we had to figure out how to go fix that. Jason: Yeah. Then in tech companies, where you had the sales team and what they would sell, and then you'd have the fulfillment side would hate the sales team. There is this animosity that was tangible inside the companies I would see, in which the billing department, or the fulfillment department, or whatever, were like, “The sales guys are always selling stuff. They said it wrong. They’re not doing it right,” and there's this frustration. How do you facilitate this bridge between the two to mitigate that? Let’s say you got the right people in place. How do you ensure that there's a really good understanding on both sides of what their capabilities are and what's accurate? Jennifer: We actually started to align the goals. Business development roles have a tendency to operate on bonus structure. Obviously, it's sales. Its target, its bonuses, its goals. We’ve recognized that even though the folks internal are generally W2-based salary employees. There is a way to align that to where they win together, they lose together, a shoulder-to-shoulder approach. What we had done was we created transparency. We aligned the goals. The goal for the entire organization is new business and retaining business. Previously, we would run into issues where business development would close the deal, turn it over, move on. Now, the way that we have it structured, they get a portion of their bonus structure at the execution of the agreement, but the balance of it doesn't happen until the property is rented for the first time. It forces the two to stay engaged. We've created a clear path of collaboration between the two as far as, business development will make the call, they may negotiate some of the terms, but the contract which wasn't done this way previously, will actually be sent out now by the property manager. Not that we're trying to put more work on the property manager’s [...], document signed doesn't take that long, but it forces the two of them to talk about the terms that were agreed to with the homeowner. Prior to the contract given going out, the collaboration on the rental rate happens. An inspection of the property happens, so the two of them are looking at the inspection to come to terms with what the owner may need to do to the property to make it rent-ready. Previously, all of those things were done by BD in advance. Once everything was executed and a rent rate was given, the BD person was not normally telling an owner what needs to be done to prep the property. Now all a sudden, the property manager is in the picture. They receive a new contract, now they're looking at the terms going, “This is not something I normally do, so now I have to go to [...] for this owner,” or whatever the special circumstances are that they now have to go figure out how to manage. “Gosh, I don't think we can get this rent rate.” So we made it to where they win together, they lose together. They're all watching the same metrics now as it pertains to that. They both have a collaboration and a bonus structure tied to it. Jason: Yeah, because one of the big challenge is if you get a closer on your team, they can close deals, and you put them in a position that it's simply about getting a deal on and not the longevity of that relationship with the client or the customer, they're going to delegate the deals. They’ll still close one and they'll move on to the next one. Those might not be a good fit for the business. They might not be a good fit for the team. They're less inclined to make sure that what the message that they're sharing is accurate. They're far less inclined to make sure that they have really good communication with the fulfillment side of the business, to know what can be done and that sort of thing, because their financial reward isn't connected to that. I love that and I love basically what you're saying. It sounds like you’ve created a much more gradual transition from one department to another. A lot of people view it as you're sales, and then there's this clear cut-off, and then boom, you're with other people. Jennifer: Owners don’t like that either. That's right and the client didn't like that. Yes, it is a more gradual approach now where there's an integration of the property manager pretty early on because otherwise, business development has established this great relationship in the beginning, promised the world, and in comes the property manager who's like, “I'm sorry, your property has been on the market now for 30 days, but we're going to have to lower the rate,” and that then sets the tone. Now, business development’s getting a phone call from said owner to go, “Wait a minute, you told me I could get this and now this person that is managing my property is telling me we can't get that,” and it makes everybody go backwards. It's a much slower process for turning it over so that the homeowner doesn't feel like it’s either a bait and switch, or that they're just left at the altar when business development moves on. Jason: I imagine other property managers that are listening or property management business owners listening to this, they could probably start to implement some of this even in their companies that are smaller, simply by getting the property manager involved earlier on with the person that's doing the sales. A lot of times, that's the business owner. But if they have managers, it might be wise for them to start transitioning as soon as possible to somebody else. I think what that also does is it frees up the BDM. There's a lot of work that the property manager can help facilitate in building that relationship and in onboarding the client. I think that helps the sales process. It helps transition them into just being a client and going into that delivery or fulfillment stage of business, which is going to free up time for the BDM to spend more time selling, I would imagine. Jennifer: Yes and we’ve created transparency, too. We’ve used technology besides doing consistent touch points. Right now, I had gotten back engaged in doing a lot of the BD. I'm generally here with most of the team. We meet regularly to talk about the CRM because everybody can see our customer care team takes telephone calls, puts the lead into the CRM, everybody gets alerted. They know on the rotation which property manager it's going to get assigned to. The property manager knows there's something coming down the pipeline. They can see whether it's me or anybody else doing the business development side of it, where they are in the transaction, has contact been made, where are we in the process. Once it gets to a certain point where the owner is ready for a contract, we will go ahead and then collaborate. “Let's look at the rental comps together. What else do you have available in the neighborhood currently that we're managing? Are we competing against something else?” So there's a collaboration. We also have transparency not only in the CRM and to know where we are with the leads, but we got to make it fun. This is a very thankless job, it's a very hard job, there's a lot of moving parts that everybody has to deal with every day. We have actually used technology that talks to our CRM which is an internal one that we have and then our property management software. It’s a tool called Klipfolio. It’s awesome because it makes graphs and things like that. If we say, “The target for Team Liberty is 10 new doors this month,” then every time something new comes in, they close it out in the CRM, and they mark it a closed deal, their graph changes. Both internal and external can see where they are in their target to go get as it pertains to new doors and retention. Those are two metrics that internal and external teams are both responsible for. It’s helping with retention. Everybody in the organization needs to help with retention and new growth. Those two metrics in particular are a collaboration between the two teams. Jason: Absolutely. It’s really important in business to focus on the entire life cycle and the lifetime value in extending that, rather than just on sales and closing deals. What ends up happening on companies that just focus on closing a deal on sales is that fulfillment on all of those companies tends to take a backseat, tends to start to suffer and struggle because their focus is just on getting revenue in. If the goal needs to be on revenue as a whole in aggregate, lifetime value, building up the longevity of these contracts, keeping clients on, the number one prospect that most businesses have is their existing customer. Jennifer: That's exactly right. Jason: We’re always stoked on getting new ones which is exciting, but we want to make sure that we keep one. There's no point in getting on a new deal if you lose one. Jennifer: Right. I think every property management firm across the country for the most part, several that I've talked to over the last few months, I know for us last year was our biggest one but for the last couple years, have experienced attrition due to sales. The sales market has come back. To your point, the internal customers that you already have, if somebody says, “Hey, when my tenant move out, I'd like to go ahead and sell the property,” why not try to retain that business and now send something out to all of your homeowner's letting them know, “Hey, we've got a property that another one of our clients is looking to sell. Is anybody interested in buying it?” I'm sort of talking about it at a 30,000 feet view. That's something that we went ahead and implemented where we’re periodically sending a letter out to all of our owners. It’s an email format but it's not just an email. It looks like it’s a little letter that goes out and just letting them know, “Hey, if you want to buy more, the market is good for that. If you're interested in selling, let us know because we have others that are interested in buying.” That's still a door safe. It’s another sale all over again. That’s something that's also very important. That’s why retention is something that had to not only be tracked internally. Business development was a little bit surprised when we were saying, “Look, you have to help with retention too,” but you do because internally, they may need some help in trying to convince person X as to why this particular property is good. The messaging has to be the same too about the firm. What is it we are selling? What is our firm [...]? What sets us apart? We need to have an aligned message on that. Jason: Yeah. The way in which I found that for my own business and for the clients that I coach in sales, one of the number one things that impacts with client and customer retention is just how they're sold in the beginning. It changes how you sell if you're selling for the long term. It changes how you build and create that relationship and if that relationship is built well in the beginning, the lifetime value and the chances that they're going to stay with you longer is far more likely than if you just get the win and close the deal, and move on. That changes how that happens. I've a couple of questions. One, what CRM do you guys use? Do you have a sales CRM? And then you have your customer portal and back office that you're keeping track of. Are those separate or are you trying to do everything in one system? Jennifer: No. We're probably going to move to one system. Today, have we actually use something that we actually created internally, it’s a software called KNACK. We developed that to be our business development tool but also attracts a bunch of our other metrics and things. We have multiple tabs in it. We actually changed the name to it. We call it Grand Central Station in our office here. It tracks our retention. It tracks all of the metrics that our property management teams and our business development team, those that they have to watch together. Then of course internally with respect to maintenance and work orders. Even internally, they're still doing sales. It’s a different kind of sales. Retention is sales. Keeping a homeowner happy is still sales. Tenant retention is sales. It’s just a different kind than the initial close of a deal. Even internally, the system is tracking lease renewals, it’s tracking tenant retention, it’s tracking how quickly we’re doing maintenance work orders because there is a direct correlation to how quickly even normal regular maintenance gets handled and tenants staying longer in the property. Maintenance is the number one reason tenants leave. We have a system that we developed internally. Zoho actually is another tool that we use but it works more with our emails right now. Interestingly enough, they have a ton of tools that can be used. I think we may be moving in that direction . But today, we use KNACK and then we use this Klipfolio. Klipfolio is what actually creates the fun stuff. It creates the pie charts and the graphs, so everybody can see. Jason: It’s more of a dashboard. Jennifer: Yeah. That’s exactly what it is. It’s our dashboard. It shows everybody where we’re at. Jason: You've got your own system for keeping track of some of your metrics and tracking data. You've got this thing that will take the data and print it in pretty charts so the team can see a scoreboard so they know whether they're winning or losing. Then you also have your back office, I would imagine, for accounting, keeping track of properties, and all of that that you do. I want people to be clear that you weren't just doing all of this in one magical unicorn system. Jennifer: No. It takes a lot to put it all together. Jason: The other thing I wanted to point out is, you talked about kind of gamifying this for your team. I think it's important for people listening to recognize that these two personality types that we’re really describing here that both need each other and help each other, that can work together, have very different motivators. I think as entrepreneurs, one of the big mistakes that we make a lot of times—I was talking with clients this morning about this—we’re very money driven. We’re very money-motivated. That’s a reward that we'd like to get. We mistakenly assume that everybody on our team are money-motivated, or economically- or financially-driven. It usually is not the case. Most people are the opposite but outside sales people, BDMs, they are usually the good ones, are money-motivated. They’re economically-driven. Financial rewards and bonuses could work for them but then you have this other side and they're not. I find that when people are not economically- or financially-motivated, they are recognition-motivated. They want to be recognized. They want to be seen winning. They want to feel like they've contributed. They want to feel like a winner. That’s a very different sort of situation. I think it's important as business owners to understand that if you're going to gamify this, to not just make it monetary rewards. I see it all the time. Somebody’s like, “We can start a reputation game in our company and we'll just give everybody a financial bonus,” and then they're like, “Why aren't our maintenance coordinators getting so excited about getting more money?” But they do get excited about getting recognized, doing a good job, and being called out in front of everybody as being awesome. I think it's important to recognize that you don't always have to throw money at people to get them to do things. Sometimes, that doesn’t work. Jennifer: It’s interesting, too. We do have some monetary bonus both for external and internal. Definitely, the sales folks, generally speaking, that is exactly what they're looking for. Internally, we have a few different ways that we do it. Just this year, we started our hall of fame. It’s our wall of stars. Each month, somebody is selected. For example in February, the person that stood out from the crowd in January was selected. Their picture goes up on the wall. It stays there. We have January through December up on the wall. Once their picture gets put up there, the picture stays up there. That's something that we implemented this year and that's exciting for them. We do PTO time. It's amazing recognizing somebody and it doesn’t cost your organization anything to say, “You have a half a day. You've earned four hours PTO time as a bonus,” or, “If you meet these metrics, for each metric that you meet, it’s one hour of PTO time.” It's unbelievable how far that goes. Little things, when we've had business development come into the office for those that can physically come in, we do what we call training trivia. We might be training on what our lease agreement says, or mention an agreement, or what our pitch is supposed to be like to our owners. What is our message about our firm. I'm telling you, I go to the dollar store and buy these boxes of candy. As people are getting it right, they're taking from this big bag. You can get $20-$30 worth of candy. That’s like 30 boxes of candy and they're so excited. It’s little stuff like that. Even from a training perspective, we try to make it fun because it can be a very grueling job. It’s mentally taxing. You're a middle man between the tenant and the owner and their money. That's not a really great place to be on any given day. You go home and a tenant or an owner is not mad at you, that's a great day. Jason: Yeah. Sometimes it's hurting cats, it's organized chaos, and lots of conflict resolution. Jennifer, this has been really fun, chatting about all of this. I think there's lots of ideas that’s been thrown around that are helpful. Any last thoughts on making this work between your inside team and your outside sales department? Especially for the property management businesses that are not at 1400 units, they're smaller, they're just getting started, and they've got a really small team, what do you think are some of the first things they should just start to try to tackle to make this work well? Jennifer: I would ask people specifically, “What do you think we should be saying to new clients?” Really, it’s all about communication. Just ask. Even your internal folks, while they may not volunteer the information because in their mind, they're one that’s in sales, but if you ask them, any of your staff, they will tell you. They all hear the stuff. That goes from your maintenance coordinator, to the folks that are answering your phone, to the owner of the company, whoever's doing business development. Just ask, they'll give you feedback. What we do is problem-solving. Property management is problem-solving. What problem do homeowners have or what are the concerns that they could have? Why are they hiring a property manager? All of the people on your team in some capacity are going to tell you what the most common things are that they hear are an issue from a tenant or from another homeowner, and that's what you need to go to tackle as a team. That’s what you need to make sure you know how to go solve together, but they'll tell you. It truly is just about asking them. That's something buy-in is huge. The buy-in on the message, the buy-in on how the process should look, the collaboration on there. Even we didn't learn that right away either. We would say, “Okay, I think it should work this way,” and, “Well, you've only been here two months, so you probably don't have an opinion on it yet,” but you know what? They do. It's good to ask for those ideas and feedback on that. They won't give it to you unless you ask for it. Jason: Yeah, that’s true. Especially on the inside type of personality types. I find a lot of times, they see a lot. They’re almost like the guides for humanity. They're so aware and they see so many things that we miss. Us highly driven, money-motivated people, and entrepreneurs that are crazy, and wild, and taking risks. They see so much. I meet regularly with my fulfillment team just to ask them, “What challenges are you dealing with? what are you noticing that is coming up as an issue?” A lot of times, we can solve it just by changing how we sell and making sure that we qualify prospects better, that we change what type of clients we’re bringing on because I want them to have a good experience, too. What that does is when you align sales with your fulfillment side, your fulfillment side starts to feel like you care about them. Jennifer: It’s important what they have to say. Jason: Some of our biggest mistakes were when I wasn’t listening to the fulfillment side, or wasn't listening to that team, and getting their feedback. They were frustrated because then they feel like they're not supported, “Why are you throwing these stuff at me and these people?” Jennifer: Exactly. We have to go manage the problems that you guys went and promised but nobody's asking us what we have to deal with on the backend. Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Our business is our best product. Jennifer: Yes. Jason: And when we look at our business as a product, we can see that there's flaws in every one of our businesses. There's always flaws in our product and we can approach it as a product and figure out how do we improve this? How do we make this better? How do we systemize this better? How do we reduce churn? How do we improve the communication? I love the idea of just asking what should we be saying or asking the fulfillment side of the team, like what things are coming up? And what are the big questions that we're having? Jennifer: It's almost always the simplest things that are overlooked. Jason: Yeah. Sometimes it's the simplest things that give you the biggest bang for your buck or the biggest increase in revenue. Sometimes it's really simple pivots that need to be made. Sometimes these really simple changes that they can see help improve the business. That's why even with tools and systems that we use like GatherKudos and stuff like that, getting feedback coming in from the business, or feedback from any channel, I think a lot of times people perceive feedback as something negative, but I see feedback as this gateway to everything that you really want. Jennifer: Absolutely. Even the stuff that comes in that's good, you could still be looking at to do better. A feedback is critical because how do you fix what you don't know? If you're not asking for it, you're not going to get it. All of a sudden, you've got somebody that wants to terminate with you or an employee that doesn't want to be here anymore but nobody ever asked for feedback. Now all of a sudden it's laying in your lap and you're like, “Gosh, I could have fixed that had I known,” but now it's too late. Jason: The scariest place to be as an entrepreneur is to be completely blindsided with something you didn't see because you are the emperor with no clothes. Jennifer: That's a great point. Jason: Nobody should be building a team around them that everybody feels like they have to say yes to. Jennifer: That's right. Jason: You are the emperor with no clothes. Jennifer: That’s right. You want the ideas. You want the feedback for sure. Like it or not, you want it. Jason: Great. Jennifer, this has been super fun. I really enjoyed having you on the show. It’s always fun to chat with you. How can people connect with you if they're interested connecting with you or how should people get in touch with you if they want to be able to do that? Jennifer: My email address is just jennifer@parkaveproperties.com or you can just go to Park Avenue’s website parkaveproperties.com and all my info’s on there. My cell number’s on there, my email, and I'm not afraid to get my cell number out so people are welcome to reach out to me. You can go to NARPM. I'm on there, too. Jason: Awesome. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the show. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it. Thanks Jason. Jason: You bet. That was super fun, hanging out with Jennifer. For those of you listening, if you enjoy this episode, we’d really appreciate it if you are listening on iTunes, to make sure and subscribe to iTunes podcast and make sure that you leave us some feedback. We really appreciate your real feedback on iTunes. It helps us get awareness and makes it worth it doing these shows. Be sure to join our free community, the DoorGrowClub Facebook group. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. If it's been a little while since you've gotten some leads on your website, or you feel like your website maybe is pretty but isn't really doing its job, or maybe it's actually just ugly and not doing its job, make sure to go test it out by going to doorgrow.com/quiz. Take our DoorGrow score quiz and test your website. It’s going to show you how effective your website really is at converting and making money. It’ll give you a letter grade. There’s a few resources for you. If you're struggling to grow your property management business, you feel like things aren't working like SEO, pay-per-click, content marketing, social media marketing, you're finding all of those cold lead marketing channels less effective, and your number one source of growth still is word-of-mouth, we can make that better. Reach out to DoorGrow and you can check us out at doorgrow.com. Thanks everybody for tuning in. until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social direct, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve the biggest challenge, getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. 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Order our new book today! Marriage After God: Chasing Boldly After God’s Purpose for Your Life Together https://marriageaftergod.com In this episode, we chat with Jerrad lopes and his wife about the place that the word of God should have in our life and marriage. A quote from Chapter 4 of Marriage After God “A marriage after God is one that is eager to allow the Word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit.” Dear Lord, Thank you for your word! It is living and it is active, sharper than any 2 edged sword. Lord, you created everything by your word, and faith comes by hearing your word. You tell us that man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of your mouth. We pray that as husbands and wives who love you and are chasing after you, that we would be men and women of your word. That we would make it a priority in our lives. That we would read it and meditate on it. That it would be our sustenance. That we would allow ourselves to be transformed by it and renewed by it. May our marriages be transformed by it. We pray that our lives would represent what your word says. We pray that we would take the sword of the spirit which is your word and use it to fight against the schemes of the devil. Lord, your word is good and gift for everyone. May we read it, may we know it, and may we live it out daily. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey! We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part four of the Marriage After God series and we're going to be talking with Jerrad and Laila Lopes about our relationship with the Bible. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith everyday. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life [Aaron] love [Jennifer] and power [Aaron] That can only be found by choosing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. We just want to take a moment and ask you to leave a review for the Marriage After God podcast. So if you've been encouraged by this podcast, if you want to support this podcast, that's just one great way that Aaron and I would love to invite you to do that. It's really quick. You just scroll down to the bottom of the app, leave a star-rating review or a comment review and we really appreciate that. [Aaron] And then the reason we're doing this 16 part series with all these interviews is because we're launching our book "Marriage After God" and we're excited to get it in your hands. And so if you want to take a moment and go to shop.marriageaftergod.com, either now or after the podcast, and pick up your copy of our new book. Jennifer and I wrote it. We wrote it for you and it's to encourage your marriage to chase boldly after Christ's plan and mission for your marriage. And so that's what this podcast is about and we're gonna be talking about Chapter 4 today with Jerrad and Laila Lopes. Welcome to the show guys. [Laila] Hello, thank you. [Aaron] We're so happy to have you guys. We've known you guys for quite a while now. How many years actually? [Jerrad] Uh [Laila] Probably three? [Aaron] Three years? [Jerrad] I think [Jennifer] Four? [Jerrad] Yeah, like three years now. [Aaron] We've met you guys once in person. We've been doing You guys have been doing the podcast thing way longer than us. Jerrad, you're from DadTired, the podcast and the website. [Jerrad] Yup. [Aaron] And so, you guys have helped us on our journey of podcasting and just, it's been awesome knowing you guys and so we're excited to interview you both. So before we get into the ice breaker question and the interview questions, why don't you just let us know who you are, what you guys do, children, marriage, all that. [Jerrad] Yeah, well first of all, super excited to be here. We are obviously big fans of you guys and what you guys are doing to help encourage marriages. So really really honored to be here. Laila and I have been married for nine years this last week. [Jennifer] Awesome, congratulations! [Laila] January 2019, it's nine years. [Jerrad] Thank you. So nine years. We have three little ones as we're building our team. We have a seven year old son named Elijah, a five year old girl named Eden, and a brand new baby girl named Ella. [Laila] Two months old. [Aaron] Congratulations. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Laila] Thank you. [Jennifer] I love that you said building your team. [Jerrad] Yeah, yeah. So we're super excited about it. We thought we were done with two but once we decided we're not, like, we're just like, [Jennifer] How many more can we have? [Jerrad] Yeah, let's just keep having lots of babies. [Aaron] You know, God's good like that. Just changes our hearts. [Jerrad] Yeah, yup, yup. Yeah so, we totally see children as a blessing and we're excited to keep the legacy moving on and the kingdom advancing through our family. So anyway, that's our family. I run a ministry called DadTired and Laila is a nurse, an oncology nurse at the hospital. [Aaron] Awesome. Well we are so excited to have you guys and we always have an ice breaker question and this is just a fun way to get our listeners to get to you know you guys, to get to know us, but the question is for you guys. If you could have a second honeymoon, what would it be? [Jerrad] Do you have an answer to that, babe? [Laila] Um, I actually quite liked our honeymoon. We went to Maui. I had never been to any of the Hawaiian islands and I really enjoyed that. I would probably re-do our wedding if we could do that. [Aaron] You can, can't you? [Laila] I'd take a second chance at that. [Jerrad] Our wedding was terrible. It was so bad. [Laila] It wasn't so bad. [Jerrad] I didn't like it at all. [Laila] Jerrad didn't like it. [Aaron] You like your marriage though, right? [Laila] Yeah, our marriage is good. The wedding was not us, that's all. [Jennifer] I always think that [Jarred] The thing is, Laila, Sorry to interrupt you, go ahead. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I always think back to our wedding too and I think, well, Pinterest didn't really exist back then. So I think I would want to re-do it just for the sake of having my Pinterest board setup. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the problem. We didn't do know marriages, weddings looked like because we didn't have Pinterest, so. Well, we like. Laila and I met and then four months later were engaged [Jennifer] Wow. [Aaron] Nice. [Jarred] and six months after that were married and we didn't have a style yet. You know? We just didn't know each other very well, which is crazy to think about. And our friends didn't know each other that well yet and it really is a testament to God's grace and His hand on us, protecting us, because we really were still getting to know each other in so many ways. So anyway, now that we've obviously been in this for like a decade, we are like, alright, we would re-do it and invite more people or maybe different people. [Laila] It's just the style. It just wasn't really our, well we didn't have a style. We didn't have a "us" established yet because we were so, we had just met nine months prior to our wedding, but. [Jennifer] What about the honeymoon though? Would you do something different? [Jerrad] I'm geeking out on Southeast Asia right now, so I would do like two weeks in Vietnam, Thailand. [Jennifer] Aaron would love that. [Aaron] Yeah, I think we've known some people that have done that. And you could do the whole thing for like 500 bucks. [Jerrad] I know, I know. [Laila] It's a lot cheaper than Maui. [Aaron] Awesome. So Jennifer, why don't you give the quote from our chapter, this chapter, in the book and then we'll get into the topic. [Jennifer] So this is from chapter 4 of Marriage After God and it's titled, "Your Relationship with the Bible". It says, "A marriage after God is one that is eager to allow the word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit." [Jerrad] Nice. [Aaron] And so, this whole topic in this chapter is just, without the Bible, without our foundation there, without our hearts and minds in that thing, the very word of God, we won't know what we're supposed to be doing. We won't know how to know God and so we just wanted to talk with you guys today about our relationship as Christians with the Bible. And so, [Jennifer] Specifically your relationship with the Bible. [Aaron] Yeah, your relationship and then our prayer and hope is that the listeners would get inspired, would be encouraged, would be reminded of the importance and the vital place that the Bible has in our lives. That it is our faith, which is the word of God. So, you know, we'll just jump right in. So here is the first question. What is your current relationship with the Bible? And I know that's kind of a big question, but I just want to know, where does the Bible land in your life, as a married couple, as Christians, right now? [Laila] That's a good question. For me, it's been a bit of a journey. I didn't grow up a Christian at all. So I was really unfamiliar with it for the first 21 years of my life, actually. But after becoming a Christian, I was really in awe of the gospel and Jesus and that God loves me, as I had heard it, like, preached on Sundays. But I still, I actually wasn't interested in the Bible for a long time. My view of it was that it was, maybe just a collection of old stories or something. It just seemed really irrelevant. But now as a more mature Christian, I understand that it's actually, you know, as it says, the inspired word of God. Which I think makes it rather important. So I placed a much higher importance on reading it, learning it, and knowing what God's word says about himself specifically. [Jerrad] Yeah, and I would say for me, I grew up kind of opposite of Laila. I grew up going to church from the time I was just a young kid and so I remember learning the stories of God even as a child. But I think it wasn't until maybe, I don't know, seven, eight years ago where I started to realize, as you read the scriptures, that this isn't just a random book of stories but that there's actually a woven story in all of it of God redeeming everything back to himself and it's really this beautiful grand story and it became much more beautiful to me that this wasn't just like some stories where God was trying to get us to be more moral, behave better, but that He was actually telling a story about Himself and His relationship with His creation. So yeah, I think that's where we are now. [Jennifer] Awesome. So for everyone listening, just to encourage them, I like practical. I like to know what everybody else's routines look like so that I can look at my life and go, okay, what can I maximize here or there or do better. So what is digging into the word on a daily basis look like for you guys right now? What is, do you have some routines put in place? [Jerrad] Yeah. [Laila] Yeah we do. It's about to change a bit for me. I still work. I work two or three days a week usually and I commute about 45 minutes to an hour each way. So I use that time, just as a practical way to get into the Bible, I listen to it through some audible app or the Bible on audio and that's been really helpful. It's just a quiet time. You know, we have three kids including an infant. So there's not a lot of quiet time around here. But for me that's been really a helpful and practical way is just in my commute. [Aaron] That's a great tip. [Jerrad] Yeah, we use that. So last year we read through the Bible together from Genesis to Revelation and then we can kind of get into what that looked like practically if you think that that would be helpful. But this year, we are going through just the New Testament in a year and then next year we'll do the Old Testament in a year and then we'll cycle back through the whole Bible in a year. [Jennifer] I love that you guys are already looking ahead. Like, these are what our years look like. I just think that's so awesome. [Aaron] Yeah, and being prepared like that and having a plan, it does make it easier because you know where you guys are at and the whole family being on the same page makes it easier rather than, like well what am I gonna read today. You all know. You're like oh we're reading, you know, we're in John right now [Jennifer] Right. and we're on the same chapter and we're gonna talk about that later. [Jennifer] So could you guys share a little bit about that? Reading together as a couple. Not only how and when but how it makes you feel? [Jerrad] Yeah, I think, for us, like last year, when we read the Bible together front to back, we started out with really grand plans of sitting down and having an hour together a day and reading through the Bible together as a couple and with the family and journaling, and that just wasn't practical. It didn't work out that way. And so, we didn't want to give up on it. So we said, why don't we just keep doing this on our own as much as, like everyday we'll just read what the plan tells us to read, and then as many as times as we can do this together as husband and wife, let's do that. As many times as we can do it together as a family, let's do that. But we just didn't want to get behind and we wanted to be realistic with it. [Laila] If it came down to, should we just skip today because we can't read together, we didn't want to do that. So we just thought, you know, if we need to, we can still just make sure that we ourselves personally are filling up and then, as able, we'll get together. We did try and prioritize that, to read it together as a couple because it was really fun to see what stuck out to Jerrad and I think he enjoyed hearing what things stuck out to me. 'Cause sometimes it was different, sometimes it was exactly the same. But yeah, if it comes down to don't read at all because we're not reading it together or just get what we can when we can, then we just did it separately. [Jerrad] And the other thing is, so I travel a lot too for work and for speaking and stuff. So like [Laila] Yeah. [Jerrad] It was cool. And Laila works a few days a week. So it was cool to even know we were still reading the same thing. So even when I was on the road, we would still be doing phone calls and being like, what did you think of that passage today, what stuck out to you, or can you believe Paul said this, that was super convicting, you know? We were talking about it really organically all throughout the week and the year. [Jennifer] That's so cool. So I don't know if people are like me in this. But you guys talked about setting this goal of what you wanted it to look like and be like and then quickly realize that it wasn't practical and that you had to change things up or even go with the flow almost. And I know I have struggled with this in the past and really when it comes to anything in my relationship with Aaron, but you set these goals and when they don't happen like you want them too, I'm saying, I'm saying it as if it's not happening to me. But what I mean is I would get defeated or I would feel down and not want to move forward because it's not happening like I want it to. [Aaron] Yeah, like you failed. [Jennifer] Yeah, like I failed and so I think that this is just really encouraging to hear from you guys and to be reminded that goals are good and having expectations are okay as long as when you come up against them and things aren't working that people can still move forward and just change how it's being done. [Aaron] Yeah, so shift it quickly rather than just give up. [Jennifer] Exactly. [Laila] I would credit Jerrad for that because I am a bit like that if we've set a goal to read it together every day and now it's been two or three days and we haven't read it together then let's just quit, we'll start over next year and try again. But Jerrad's like, no it's okay. You have something you say about setting goals that I can't remember. [Aaron] What's that really good phrase you always say? [Laila] What's that good thing you say that is really helpful sometimes? [Jerrad] I have no idea. But what I do know is, as Christians, man, we can just get so caught up in being really rigorous and disciplined and we have to have our morning quiet time and we shame ourselves if we don't. But the point isn't that we read everyday as much as the point is that are we getting do know God, right? And that's like. Life happens. You might skip a day. You might like whatever. And obviously, it's cool to be disciplined and it's important. But even more important is are we getting to know God. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jerrad] If that ends up being a chapter a day, or a verse a day, or six chapters a day, whatever. Let's not forget what we're trying to do here and that's to get to know the God of ours. [Aaron] Yeah, I was gonna, this transitioned perfectly in what I was gonna bring up. Being marriages after God and chasing boldly after what He has for us and that He would use our marriages and knowing His word is the beginning of that because in knowing His word is knowing Him and what He wants, where He's going, what He loves, what He hates. And so I just wanted to ask you guys, because a lot of Christians could be listening to this and be like, okay they're talking about reading the Bible, everyone always talks about reading the Bible. Yeah it's important. I gotta read the Bible. I gotta pray. Those are the, quote on quote, Christian things to do. But it's so much more than that. It's not just, like you said, here's your reading plan because, to be honest, you could monotonously go through the Bible and not get anything out of it. But why? Why is it vital that the believer, that Christians, that marriages are in the word of God. What is that doing for us? Why is God desire us to know His word? [Jerrad] Yeah, so at the heart of it is it's bigger than just, I think what you said is so true, that as Christians we feel like, man I know I should be praying more. I know I should be reading the Bible more. I know I should be tithing more and whatever. It's these disciplines that we kind of get on ourselves about. But at the heart of it is we are all susceptible to making up our own Gods in our own minds. We don't drift towards good theology. We drift away from it. We drift towards selfishness and so often times, what happens is, we end up making our God look like us and he ends up liking the things that we like and he can tolerate the sins that we tolerate and he's not, he loves the people we love and he hates the people that we're mad at, right? He ends up looking a lot like us. And so scripture confronts us, right? II Timothy 3:16, it's useful for rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness. When we read scripture, we realize quickly God is his own person. He has his own personality. He is who he is. He is Yahweh God. And so we are trying to, if we don't learn who that God is, we will drift towards making up an own God in our mind and that is a really really dangerous place to be as a Christian. [Aaron] So we dig into the word. We learn, and I love what you said because we do make up our own gods. When we just, and this is where a lot of Christians are today and I pray that my listeners aren't there. But if they are, I pray that this snaps them out of it and says, oh we need to find out who God is, not who we think God is. But knowing who God is, what does that do to the Christian? What does that do in our lives when we're like, oh. Laila, you mentioned that you met the love of God and you're like, He loves me. And at first you weren't like, and you heard that from the pulpit. You heard that from pastors and from church. But you weren't interested in the word of God and then all of a sudden you were like, wait a minute. The word of God is who God is. You know? [Laila] Right, exactly. Well I think if I would have just stuck with what this pastor had said to me or what the Christians are saying to me then I would also be pretty susceptible to also listening to maybe what other people were telling me. Untruths and lies. And so I think having first been drawn in by hearing God's word spoken, then able to really ground myself in knowing who God is because of who God says He is and Jesus is and I wouldn't know that if it weren't for the scriptures and like I said, I would just be so easily swayed to believe who knows what if I would have just kept to what people tell me about God instead of what God tells me about God. [Jennifer] Now when you do hear people tell you things about God you can test those things because you know His word. [Laila] Exactly. [Jerrad] Christians say all kinds of really crazy things, especially on social media. Like God told me this, or just believe this, and it's like, that's not at all what God's word says. And that's why it's so important for Christians to know the word of God because even Christians, or especially Christians, will say things that are just like, man that sounds really great but that just is not at all what the scriptures teach. [Laila] They're like half-truths. So they sound really Christian-y and good, but not quite right. [Aaron] Yeah, I take the example from Christ when he's in the wilderness being tempted by the devil and the devil uses scripture [Laila] Mm hmm, right. [Aaron] to tempt Jesus. He goes to the very thing that teaches us about who God is and he takes it out of context, you know? Which is funny because this is what false teachers do today. They're using scriptures and they're drawing it out of context and they're using it to, like you said, create their own God from the scriptures rather than, well actually, this is why it's saying what it's saying and this is what it's saying and this is who it is saying it to. That we have to be like Christ. Knowing the word, so we can go back to the enemy or to these things we see on social media, and say well okay, maybe that is right but it also says this and so, therefore, that thing can't be true. [Jerrad] Right, yup. That's such a good reminder. And we remember in scripture, Satan has been doing that since day one. Didn't God say. Very first words we ever see from Satan was "Didn't God say". And so yeah. We have to know the character of God because you're right. The enemy loves to twist the words of God. [Jennifer] So talking about the character of God. Can we know God without a close relationship with the Bible? [Jerrad] I guess the only hesitancy I would say in that is there's so many believers who didn't have any actual Bible in their hand for a long time. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Mm. [Jerrad] Who had to hear stories about God and they relied on, maybe they had one Bible in their whole village, right? [Laila] Even today. [Jerrad] Even today that's true where the word of God is being taught orally because people don't know how to read or they don't have access to the scriptures. And I believe that God, supernaturally by the Holy Spirit, can continue to work in their lives and mature believers for those that are in the situation. But that's the exception right? For an American who's listening, who's got a Bible to say, yeah I kind of got a good idea of who God is, I kind of get the jist of the Bible, to say I don't really need to read. That's just foolish thinking. [Aaron] Yeah I was just gonna say that. We've heard that before and that argument, well there's other people that don't have the word of God. But that doesn't give an excuse to all of us who have multiple Bibles and we can literally go to a hotel room [Jerrad] Right. [Aaron] and there is a Bible in the drawer. We can go to the store and get a Bible. People give out free Bibles. You can to your church. They'll probably give you a Bible. [Jerrad] Right. [Aaron] So we don't get to have the excuse of like, yeah. [Laila] Right. [Jerrad] So if you're listening right now and you don't have a Bible, I will send you one. Like that, there is zero excuse and I know you guys would too. [Aaron] So Laila and Jerrad, you guys were talking about, when you got married very quickly and how you guys hadn't established an "us" yet and that's why you couldn't do the wedding, you didn't have a style for the wedding, you're like who are we gonna invite, what does this thing look like? But things are much different now because you know each other and I just was trying to, I wanted to highlight that again because, we can know, you know the question was can you have a close relationship with God without the Bible. And I like your answer, no, I don't think we can. But the Bible does tell us, in Romans, that we can know of God just by nature itself. Just by creation itself. But that does not tell us who God is. So we can experience God. Any person in any village anywhere can know that there is a God. Which is what Atheists they have to just literally deny that there is a God. They can't just assume that there's not because there is no, the world is proof of it. But to know God, just like when you guys were getting married, you guys didn't yet know each other, we couldn't know God without knowing what He's said because that would be like being married and you guys never talking. Jerrad never explaining who his family is and showing you who they are and never telling you things from the past and how he thinks and things he's done. And you literally just, you live together and you have no clue who Jerrad is. Yeah, you're married. [Laila] Right. [Aaron] You're connected with him but, that's not a very fruitful marriage, right? [Laila] Right. [Aaron] So I wanted to bring that up, that beautiful analogy. But now you guys know each other, and you guys are consistently knowing each other and that should be the heart of the marriage after God is that we, whether we know everything now, and whether we're in the word of God four hours a day, whatever that looks like, that we have a desire to go that direction. And it sounds like that's where you guys are at. [Laila] Yeah, I would say. Right, it would be the same. I mean, that is a good analogy. If I had married Jerrad and in the first year decided that I know everything there is about Jerrad because now I've been married to him for a year. That's crazy. Every day that goes by, I am changing and when I interact with Jerrad, I learn about him. Something new about him. I mean almost daily we just learn the nuances and I think it's that way with scripture too. Last year we read through the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, and I am certain that when we read through it again, I am going to learn it in a totally different way as opposed to have having just assumed that I know what I need to know and be done with it. I mean they say it's the living word of God. It's not changing but I am and the way that I, the way that God speaks to me through His word changes every time I read even the same scripture, over and over. It's different each time. [Jennifer] I love that you give that picture that it doesn't change but I am. Like, I change because of it. So I want to kind of dig a little personal here and just ask you guys in what ways has the word of God transformed your marriage? [Laila] Well I'm reminded through scripture who God is and what He's already done and so I can count on what I know He can do. You know, like we said, we've been married for nine years and a couple years ago we had a really really hard season in marriage. It's really part of how DadTired was actually born out of that season. But it was just, it was actually really awful. But I was able to pull from scripture what I know about God and what the Bible says about marriage and instead of bailing out like what my flesh would want to do and what my emotions were telling me to do is just get out of here, this sucks, this is hard, I don't like him anymore. I was able to just know that God can change hearts and I just prayed like crazy through that season. And like what your quote from the book, "allowing the word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit". I wouldn't know that power if I hadn't been in scripture. But I just was able to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit because I know what He's done. I know what He can do. And here we are. Nine years in. And way past that awful season. [Jennifer] What a powerful testimony. Like Aaron was saying, I pray for those listening. My prayer for those listening would hear that and be encouraged. And if anyone is in that place right now where things are, where maybe they're rough or it's hard to persevere right now, I hope that they would dig into the word of God and find the same hope and endurance that you found through the word of God. [Jerrad] Yeah I was just gonna say too, to kind of piggy-back off of that is, your whole book is called Marriage After God, which is really like, that title says I want to marriage my, or I'm sorry. I want to model by marriage after God, right? In the character of God. And so to do that you have to know what God's character is like. And when you read the scripture, you learn that God is a God who is relentless in His pursuit of people who constantly turn their back on Him. And he's faithful even when people aren't faithful. And so Laila, being connected to that truth, and the truth that she learned through the word of God and who God actually is, not who she wanted him to be in her mind, she was able to pursue me relentlessly even when I was not being faithful in my love and pursuit of her. And so, that's a testimony. That's much deeper than, hey, you should read the Bible every day [Aaron] Yeah. [Jerrad] because it's a good thing to do as a Christian. It literally saved our marriage. Had she had made up some God in her mind, she probably would have said, well God wants me to be gone because Jerrad's being an, you know, he's being a jerk. But I know who God is and I want to model my marriage after who God is and as a result, I'm going to pursue Jerrad the way that God has pursued me even if Jerrad's not fully in it. And as a result of that, the Holy Spirit worked and changed my heart. And literally, the reason that we're sitting here today, doing this podcast, is because of that. [Aaron] And that's what's amazing about the word of God. When the Bible tells us that the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword, and we also see that in Revelation when it's describing Jesus, you know this two-edged sword coming out of his mouth. And that it cuts even to the marrow. Like it cuts through our flesh. It cuts through our desires. It cuts through our opinions, our way of thinking, down to the motives and then it reveals to us who we are. You know? And that's what changes us because, going back to that idea of creating our own little Gods. You know, creating what we believe God to be. You end up with the conclusion, Laila, is that well God wants me to be happy. Therefore, since I'm not happy, God wants me to leave. You know? [Laila] Right. Oh yeah, I would have loved to have, at the time, made that true. Jerrad's not being what I want him to be. He's not making me happy. And yeah, God wants me to be happy so I'm out. But I just knew that wasn't true. How many times we've been unfaithful to God just in our walk with him and He just doesn't bail. There's just no way around it. And he says to, you know, love your spouse that way. [Aaron] Which is crazy. [Laila] I just had nothing else I could do and I knew I couldn't change Jerrad. I could beg and cry and you know, hey, don't be a jerk. But there was just nothing I could do. We were just in a bad spot and I'm sure I was not always pleasant for him either. But I just had to pray to the one who I knew could change Jerrad's heart and it certainly wasn't me or any made up God who looks like me. But just, like you said, the power of the Holy Spirit, that was it. And I prayed a lot. [Aaron] And he's doing it. There's people listening right now that are probably gonna be finding freedom and restoration in their marriages just because of this testimony. So thank you for your openness. [Laila] And to be honest, there as a lot of eye-rolls for me when people would say, just pray about it, just pray about it. I hated that because I wanted some action, you know? But we were just at the point that I thought I literally have nothing else I can do and I would set my alarm in the middle of the night and get up and pray. It was just. I dunno. I'm tellin' ya. I really didn't like when people told me, just pray about it. But I did it because I was just that desperate and it was those prayers have certainly been answered. [Aaron] Well I think of, so our pastor always says, "Prayer isn't the preparation for the battle. Prayer is the battle." That's how we war. And the Bible tell us to pray about all things and for everything and in every place. And when we don't just. The prayer that you're talking about isn't just, "Okay, Lord, just fix the situation." It's "Lord, what do you want? Lord, where do you want me? What do you want me to do? How do you want me to pray?" Man, and just in another encouragement, I love it, the Bible tells us when we don't even know what to pray for, that the spirit prays for us. And then on top of that, Jesus is at the right hand of God right now interceding on our behalf. Which is amazing. That you could sit there in bed and say, "I have no clue what I'm doing Lord, but I need your help" and Jesus is praying for you and he's saying, Lord help them. Give them strength. Give them courage. So I would encourage everyone too. That that's a great encouragement. Don't just pray. But pray with anticipation of what God wants and His will. So I want to ask you guys another question. You know, we're talking about going through struggles. Jennifer and I, that's kind of where our ministry was born from, was struggles we were going through. It sounds like the DadTired ministry and what you guys are doing was born out of some issues you guys were going through. But another thing we talk about in the book is that having a good marriage is not the end game. Having a healthy marriage is not the end game. Getting to the word of God and knowing the God is not the end game. These things that we're talking about is to do something. That there is an end in mind. How do you guys see that, you know, the word of God changing you, you guys walking in obedience to the word and finding that restoration in your marriage, where you're at now, how has God used all of that stuff and your obedience for his sake? [Jerrad] Yeah, I think that, just kind of going back to what we were just talking about. I think that when we live out what we see God being like, we give everyone around us a glimpse of that God that we see in the Bible. And so when Laila was faithful to me in that season, she gave me a glimpse of the gospel. When she was faithful. When our kids see us be faithful to each other even when we're not happy, but we continue to pursue each other relentlessly, we continue to pursue their hearts even when they're disobedient, we continue to forgive, we give them glimpses of the gospel and the good news of God. And then our neighbors see that. The people around us see that. It's living out what we see the God of the Bible being like that gives the world a glimpse of who God is. So yeah, I think that's what God meant when he said, be salt and light, and to represent me to the world. And so anything other than that is really telling a lie about God. Had Laila bailed on me, then she would be teaching our kids that like, hey, you can just get out when it's easy, or when you're not happy, or when it's hard, I'm sorry. And when you're not happy. And that's not who the God of the Bible is. And so it would be a lie about His marriage covenant, the whole reason of a marriage covenant was to, like you said, it wasn't for the purpose of us just being happy and building our own little family for the sake of joy and having a nice little neat marriage. But it was to give ourselves, our kids, and the world around us, a glimpse of who God is. That's the whole point of marriage. And so, we don't want to tell a lie about it. We want to represent that original intent well and to show off to each other and to the world who God really is. [Aaron] That's beautiful. [Jennifer] I have tears in my eyes. [Aaron] That was really good. [Jennifer] That was awesome. [Aaron] How would you encourage those listening today to get even closer to the word of God? You know, not just like, here's a set of rules, here's your reading plan. But like, why? Why should they be closer to God, God's word? [Jarred] I think that I would probably just go back to what we were just talking about at the beginning of the conversation and what we've hit throughout this conversation and that's that, man, I don't care if you've grown up in church since you were born, if you were born in a baptismal, you know? Or like you just gave your. That's a joke, by the way. Nobody's hopefully born in a baptismal. Whether you're born in the church or you just gave your life to Christ today, we are all susceptible of just making up who we want God to be. I've been teaching the word of God for a decade now and I still do it. I still want God to be, look like I want him to look. And I'm still confronted by the scriptures and the truth of the scriptures every single day. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jerrad] We literally just read a verse this last week in II Timothy that says you're always learning but never arriving at the truth, or you know, at the knowledge of the truth. And it's like, well crud, that's convicting because I'm always learning. I feel like I'm learning and yet am I actually getting closer to Jesus? Just don't be arrogant enough, even subtle arrogance to think that you know you can wrap your mind around this God of the universe. He is way to big for you to understand fully. And it's just vital to continue to understand who this God is and to chase after Him. The other thing I would say on that is Proverbs 1 says, I think it's Proverbs 1? It could be Psalm 1. One of the Ps. One says that if you, a man in the word of God is like a tree planted near living water, right? [Aaron] Oh yeah. [Jerrad] And so we all can tell when trees are planted near water. They're alive, they're producing fruit, they're green, they look healthy. And the ones that aren't? It's really easy to tell. Hey, that tree could use some water. It's dead. It's dying. I could probably push it over right? And you can tell people, Christians, who aren't near the word of God. They look tired. They look stressed. They look like they're burned out and it's like bro, it's not that you need to have this huge crisis and figure things out. Just go plant yourself near the living water which is the word of God again. [Aaron] Yeah, and I think of the parable of the seed and the sower and the different soils. And we wanna have the soft soil where when the seed is planted, which is the word of God, it goes deep into us. And if we're not, like you were just giving that analogy of the tree. We actually had a tree die a couple years ago because we had a dry winter and we didn't realize we were supposed to water it when it's so dry. And the ground was all cracked and it started dying from the top down because the roots were, it was probably like got some sort of root rot, but because the ground was dry and the water didn't go deep, the roots didn't go deep. And so it's the same with us. If we're not in the word of God, if we don't know the word of God, those roots are going, they're shallow. And we think we're going to survive on that as a Christian in this world. So that's a good reminder. Thank you for that. [Jennifer] This has been really great talking with you guys. We have one more question and it's something that we're asking everyone throughout the series and it's, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Laila] A marriage after God. I would say just remembering that your marriage isn't just for your happiness. I know we hear that a lot. Marriage isn't for your happiness. It's for your holiness. But that's just really true. Jerrad's not here to fulfill me and make me happy because I would have bounced a couple times and I'm sure he would have been happy to do the same on a few occasions over the years. But just remembering that our marriage is to point each other, and our kids, and our neighbors, and just the world around us, back to God. That's what I'm to do for him and he's to do for me. We just point each other to Jesus, make each other more like Jesus through prayer and just trusting in God's spirit and just praying that, over each other and for each other. [Jerrad] I would agree with all of that except that I would have never left you. [Laila] I know I feel bad because we keep talking about how I could have left, I could have left, but I'm sure I'm not always a peach. I don't always make you happy but thank you for sticking around anyway. [Jennifer] Well thank you guys so much for being on the show today. We are just cheering for you as you pursue the ministry that God has for you and your marriage and also online. We would like to encourage everyone to take a moment and pray with us and then Aaron will close us out. Dear Lord, thank you for your word. It is living and it is active, sharper than any two-edged sword. Lord, you created everything by your word and faith comes by hearing your word. You tell us that man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of your mouth. We pray that as husbands and wives who love you and are chasing after you, that we would be men and women of your word. That we would make it a priority in our lives. That we would read it and meditate on it. That it would be our sustenance. That we would allow ourselves to be transformed by it and renewed by it. May our marriages be transformed by it. We pray that our lives would represent what your word says. We pray that we would take the sword of the spirit, which is your word, and use it to fight against the schemes of the devil. Lord, your word is good and a gift for everyone. May we read it, may we know it, and may we live it out every day. In Jesus name, Amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Jerrad] Amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Aaron] Okay, so, everyone listening, we thank you for joining us on this episode with Jerrad and Laila Lopes. And I just want you all to go check out his podcast. It's called "DadTired" and you can get it anywhere podcasts are available. So iTunes, just search for Dad Tired. Podbean, Castbox, wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find him. And can you let us know if there's anything else that they can get from you guys, how they can connect with you guys? [Jerrad] Super grateful again to be here. If they just go to DadTired.com, we've got a free little eBook that we give away to guys on just trying to help them figure out how to lead their family well and there's a community to jump in to which a lot of guys in our DadTired community are also part of the Marriage After God and Husband Revolution family. [Aaron] Awesome. Thank you guys again for being on the show and we have 12 more episodes coming up in this series, tons of more awesome interviews, so we want you guys to stay tuned and we'll see you next week for next week's episode. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

We will be interviewing, marriages about what it means to be a marriage after God. https://Marriageaftergod.com and order our new book Marriage After God Our friend Lara Casey, Author of Cultivate and Make it Happen said this about Marriage After God: “ There is a short list of books I’m stashing away for my three small kiddos to read when they are older—Marriage After God is one of them.” Also, would you take a moment today and follow us on Instagram https://instagram.com/marriageaftergod "Belief propels people from a place of dreaming, to a place of doing." - Jennifer Smith, Marriage After God Book Dear Lord, We pray for the husband and wife reading this book. May Your Holy Spirit use this book to inspire their hearts to boldly chase after You and say yes to the extraordinary invitations You have prepared for them. We pray this couple will grow in their understanding of the power and purpose of their marriage. Reveal to them the specific plans You have for them. We pray You would use this marriage to do incredible work to build Your kingdom. In this dark world, may You protect this couple from the attacks of the enemy! May You cleanse them from sin and continue to shape them into the husband and wife You created them to be. May they realize they bear Your image and that they are a light in this world and a beacon of hope to the lost and lonely. We ask You to guide this couple and unite them as a team to carry out the unique purposes You have for them in Jesus’s name. Amen! In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're kicking off our 16-week Marriage After God series. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast. Where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Guys I am so excited for this. I feel like as exciting it is to launch a new book, this podcast series is just as exciting. I feel like we need to celebrate. I feel like we need-- [Aaron] Ice cream. [Jennifer] Ice cream and cake and confetti. Or I don't know what to do [Aaron] Yeah, birthday cake, cake, ice cream. [Jennifer] I'll take any of it. [Aaron] On birthday cake cookies. [Jennifer] I'm just so excited for this series and we have some really exciting stuff for you guys. Thanks for joining us. [Aaron] Before we talk about the series and get into it. We just want to ask you if you've been following along in this podcast and you love the content, you love just the things that we're bringing up. How we're sharing the vulnerable areas of our life. And things that God's teaching us, would you please just take a moment and leave us a review. The reviews are how podcasts get seen by new people. They get ranked based off of how many reviews we get. If you would love to, we'd love to have you write a review. And the easiest way to do that is to leave a five-star review. It can be a four-star I guess. [Jennifer] Be honest. [Aaron] Yeah, a star review, be honest, is easy. Just tap the star at the bottom of the podcast app. But leaving a text review is the most powerful way you can help support this podcast if you want. When it comes to iTunes and how they rank this podcast. [Jennifer] Another way to support this podcast is to shop on our store. If you go to marriageafterGod.com, you can check out our resources and help support us through buying through our store. One of the books that we want to highlight, is our new book, which this series is based off of. And that's Marriage After God. Go to marriageafterGod.com and go order our new book. I also want to share with you guys our friend, Lara Casey, author of Cultivate and Make It Happen, said this about Marriage After God. "There is a short list of books I'm stashing away for my three small kiddos to read when they're older. Marriage After God is one of them." [Aaron] What a cool idea. [Jennifer] I know, I love that idea, and I wanted to share that because I think it's such a neat idea and I want to do that for my kids. I wanna have a list of books to give. [Aaron] It's good, because how many times you're like, "man what books should I read, or what books are out there." 'Cause we can't read every book. Having a stack of books and hey, we've read these. [Jennifer] And they matter. [Aaron] These books matter, they've blessed our lives. Here you go and handing that off as a wedding gift to your kids. We actually should start that. [Jennifer] Cool, and I also want to encourage you guys to take a minute and just go follow @marriageafterGod on Instagram. [Aaron] Yeah, that's our new page. Jennifer has her Unveiled Wife page. I have my Husband Revolution page, but our Marriage After God Instagram account is where we both come together and we share stuff and we share stuff about our podcast and things that are coming up. And it's a community for husbands and wives. [Jennifer] Okay, moving on to our ice-breaker question. [Aaron] What was the hardest part about writing our new book, Marriage After God? [Jennifer] I felt like the thing you kept saying over and over again is, "I really just wanna quote scripture." Throughout the whole thing. [Aaron] That was what's hard for me, because I kept comparing what I was writing to what the Bible already said. [Jennifer] The Bible's so much better. We just need to tell them-- [Aaron] I'm writing this thing, and the Bible already said this way better than I could ever say it. That's what it felt like. But what was hard for you? [Jennifer] I think for me it was figuring out how to write it together. We done it in the past, but-- [Aaron] Never to this extent. [Jennifer] Not to this extent. You wrote most of this book and I just helped I feel like. [Aaron] You wrote a lot. [Jennifer] Oh, I know, but-- [Aaron] I feel like we actually wrote pretty equal amounts. In the beginning I did a lot of the writing for the initial draft and then you added so much more color in the edit. [Jennifer] I feel like you did a lot of the teaching aspect. And I added the stories and things like that. But it was a really good balance I think of both of our voices. I did enjoy that about writing this book. I would say the other hardest part was, we started writing the book when we had three kiddos and I was pregnant and then we started the editing process after having four. [Aaron] I feel like we are always writing a book while we're pregnant or just having a baby. [Jennifer] Yeah, we like to keep things interesting. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] That was, just logistical finding time to be able to do that. [Aaron] Yeah, and the other thing for me, not just that I kept comparing what I was writing to the Bible, which is good, because the Bible is everything anyway. And all we're trying to do it point people to the Bible. I think the hardest thing for me is this is the most I've ever written ever. And I've never written a book like this. It was challenging spiritually. It was challenging technically, 'cause I've never done it. But I'm really surprised at what we're able to pull off in this book. It had to have been Holy Spirit driven. [Jennifer] I'm excited about it. [Aaron] I'm really excited about it. I'm glad that we're starting this 16 week series to talk about the concepts that are in the book. The book is why the podcasts exist. The podcast came out of, we did the contract for the book, and we're like, "hey, let's do a podcast so we can actually start talking about it now. This idea of a Marriage After God." And encourage marriages with all this free content leading up to the book. And we're not gonna stop it after the books, this is our new thing. Doing a weekly podcast together, we love it. It's kind of funny, the Marriage After God book, the podcast, and now we're gonna be talking about the book more to pull the concepts directly out of the book and talk about them. We'll get into a little bit more about that in a minute. But, before we start, Jennifer, would you like to share a quote from the Marriage After God book? [Jennifer] Sure, this quote is found in the introduction, which this kind of kicking off the series is going to be centered on the introduction of Marriage After God. That's what we have for you guys today. This is a quote from the introduction of Marriage After God. "Belief propels people from a place of dreaming to a place of doing." [Aaron] Yeah, if we don't truly believe something, we're not going to act on that belief. No one ever does that. A belief is what causes us and propels us forward to do the things that we actually believe. I love that, "belief propels people from a place of dreaming to a place of doing." Instead of sitting back like, "oh, that'd be wonderful if it was true, or that's be wonderful if I could, but I can't so I'm not gonna." [Jennifer] Yeah, and I love that we're starting out with this quote because I feel like it's the whole purpose of why we wrote this book was to encourage couples to believe and do. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] To believe what God can do with their marriage and then do it. [Aaron] Well and believe what God already says about us. Believe what the Bible says about us. Believe what is the truth. To open our eyes to what God has for us. [Jennifer] Okay, as we jump into the introduction of Marriage After God, which, are we gonna read for them? [Aaron] Yeah, I think we will read the whole introduction from the book. Not right now. [Jennifer] Okay. We're gonna do that in a little bit. But first we're gonna answer some questions. These first few questions are just ones that I came up with that I think will help you guys understand where we're coming from. From in writing Marriage After God. And then we're gonna also, after we read the introduction, answer some questions that they had, right? [Aaron] Yeah, I spent some time today on your Instagram. I don't know if you knew this or not. [Jennifer] I didn't know that. [Aaron] And on my Instagram doing live videos and asking our followers if they had any questions about the book. [Jennifer] Okay. [Aaron] Man some good questions came out of it. I wrote down as many as I could and some of them are similar so I think we complied them into a general question. And we're gonna try and answer your questions about the book, in the hopes that you guys get so excited about this because it's a book for you. We wrote this book for you, for all of the followers that have been following us since the beginning. [Jennifer] Well hold on, that's one of the questions I have. [Aaron] Oh, okay. [Jennifer] Let's jump in. Why did we write the book? [Aaron] For all of you. [Jennifer] No, why. [Aaron] We wrote the book, we wrote the book out of a necessity that we saw in our own life. We saw what God was doing with us and we saw where God had taken us. And I think we realized that there was some people that thought that we were special or that people like us are the only ones doing something and should be doing something and not everyone has something to do that God doesn't have a part and a role to play for everyone in the body. And our heart was like, "no, we're just being faithful with what God's given us, but we want you to be faithful with what God's given you." [Jennifer] Um hum. [Aaron] I think that's where it came from. It's why we did the Marriage After God gathering a couple years ago. [Jennifer] Um hum. [Aaron] Was like hey, how can we have an intimate gathering. We had 12 couples come and we're like how can we inspire these couples to just go and just chase after God boldly. Chase after his will for their marriage and to be used as a marriage in unity to move his message in his kingdom forward. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's our hope and desire for this book is that people would recognize that we are all part of his body building his kingdom. [Aaron] Yeah, there's no one part that, oh those are the people, 'cause they have something special that God's gonna use them. Actually the Bible tells us something very different. It says that we're all, all parts of the body, and not one part can say to another part that you don't belong. And that's what it is. This Marriage After God is that we belong to the body of Christ and that there's power in our unity. In our oneness. [Jennifer] Another reason we wrote the book was because we were actually walking out some of the things that we share over the last decade of time being together. The things that God revealed to us, little treasures and-- [Aaron] Things we're still learning of course. [Jennifer] Exactly, that's what I was getting to, is that we're even still learning what it means to be a Marriage After God, but the things that we have learned or the things we've overcome, or the victories we've had. We wanted to share about it as a catalyst to encourage marriages out there because we all need that encouragement. We all need to be reminded that we're here to do something and that our marriage has great purpose. We wanted to kind of come alongside them. I have this picture in my mind of holding each other, linked in arms and marching forward. [Aaron] Yeah, Christian marriages all over the world being used to glorify God, to spread the message of his goodness and it comes down to like this one sentence. The idea of the book. God has meant for more for our marriage than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] Um, hum. [Aaron] That our health in our marriage, our strength in our marriage, our joy in our marriage. All of those things are not just for us to enjoy. But that they're there to push us forward and be used for God. It's not just so that we can be like, "oh we're good, we reached it. Now we're like happy and this is all we need to focus on." We're excited. That's why we wrote the book. That's the big why. [Jennifer] Awesome. Okay, why did we title it Marriage After God? [Aaron] Ooh. See questions that I didn't know were coming. Why did we title it-- [Jennifer] The first thing that comes to my mind is we had originally wrote the devotionals which we shared about in the last episode, but Wife After God and Husband After God were 30-day devotionals that we really felt strongly were purpose to encourage husbands and wives to kind of chase after God in their individual role. Being a husband and wife-- [Aaron] His picture for them and what he wanted for them. [Jennifer] Right and to draw them closer to God and closer to each other. When we thought about this book, we wanted it to be unifying. The natural progression was Marriage After God and it's the idea and picture of a marriage chasing boldly after the purpose that he has for a marriage. [Aaron] There's mighty power in a husband chasing after God for their family even if his wife's not. There's mighty power in a wife chasing after God and serving him and loving him and being an example to her husband even if he's not. But man, the power of a husband and a wife chasing after God together and wanting his will for their life. Right there is the depth of this book. Is what we're trying to get at is, no no no. It's not just be happy where we're at, what does God have us together for? Why did he bring us to unity? Why did he make us one? 'Cause there is a meaning. There is a purpose behind it and we talk about it in the book. [Jennifer] Um, hum. That's so good, okay now that all of their ears are itching and they want to get their hands on this book, who's it for? [Aaron] This book is specifically for Christian married couples. I would not hesitate for a second to give it to someone who's not a believer. Because we preach the Gospel in the book quite a bit. [Jennifer] Even marriages who feel like maybe they're hanging on by a thread or maybe there's just some conflict there that they can't seem to get over. It doesn't have to be for a marriage that is mature, or is already chasing after God together, or both are equally yoked. It literally is for every marriage. [Aaron] Yeah, and the idea is that it's meant to be read together. It could totally be read separately, but I would totally encourage anyone who when they get the book, to read it with their spouse. Reading out loud together, or having their own copies and then talking about it as they go. But, it's for marriages. Also, I would see engaged couples reading this to prepare themselves where God wants their heart to be for marriage, so that they're working toward it now and they're praying about it now and they're saying, "okay Lord, we're gonna come together and we want this to be for you." It could totally be powerful for engaged couples as well. [Jennifer] For any age. For any however long married. [Aaron] Yeah, absolutely. [Jennifer] It doesn't matter how many kids you have. There is no prerequisite to read this book. [Aaron] Yeah, we didn't write it for a specific, the millennial Christian marriages. We wrote it for Christian marriages. Again, if they're not believers, this would be a great book to put in the hands of someone who doesn't believe yet and say, "hey, you want to see what God has for your marriage? Read this book." [Jennifer] Okay, so what do we hope the impact will be for the Marriage After God book? [Aaron] I hope that it sparks power and excitement in the hearts of husbands and wives around the world. [Jennifer] Um, hum. [Aaron] To say, wow, wait wait. God's good and he loves us and what he's doing in our marriage is awesome, but he wants us to move forward. He's got a plan for us together in how we're gonna use our talents, resources and gifts for his kingdom. And that we actually see action come out of this book. [Jennifer] That's what I was gonna say is action. [Aaron] Yeah, I think the other thing, and this is gonna go into some of the questions is, marriages leading and inspiring and encouraging other marriages. [Jennifer] Yeah, the same hope that we desire for this book to become a catalyst in your life, our hope would also be that then you become a catalyst in someone else's life. [Aaron] Oh absolutely, it's not just to point people back to us at all, actually. It's to point people to God. To His Word and to His will for their life. There's a few questions right around this idea and these are questions that people asked me in the live Instagram videos we did today. [Jennifer] Cool, okay, last question before we read the introduction and then we'll get into those questions from our listeners. It is, how can those listening right now join us in becoming a movement starter? This goes back to our hope of what we hope this book does. They might here the word movement starter and go, "what's that?" What can we encourage them to do right now? [Aaron] We called it a movement starter 'cause there's people that have been following us and are excited for what God's doing in marriages around the world and in their own marriage and for the kingdom of God. We hope that people are gonna take this book and they're gonna be like, "hey, we wanna spread the message of what God's doing, we wanna encourage other couples." The first thing I'd say is start praying. If you want to be a movement starter with us, start praying for the people that God is calling. That he wants to light a fire in. That he wants to draw out. The second thing I would say is pre-order a book. It's online right now, pretty much anywhere you buy books. Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I would suggest Amazon because they have a pre-order price guarantee where if the price lowers at any point during the next few months that you get the lowest price and they refund you the difference, which is awesome. [Jennifer] And I just want to note for people coming back to this episode or listening to it past the date and it's not necessarily for pre-order anymore, just ordering the book helps spread the message. [Aaron] Yeah, thank you for the ever greenness of that. Getting the book. And then I would say the last thing, and this is something you should start praying about now, is start praying about the two or three or four couples in your life right now that God might want you to invite over to your house to do a study with. Going through this book together. [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] I wanna add too, one way that they can also participate in being a movement starter for this message of being a Marriage After God. Earlier we asked them to go follow us on Instagram @marriageafterGod and I wanna encourage you to post your Marriage After God story. Post a picture of you and your spouse together and share a little bit about what it means to you to be and have a Marriage After God and use the hashtag Marriage After God. Because we see those and it is such a powerful testimony of what God is doing in this world and when we share our testimony of what God's doing, his heart is revealed to the world. And so we want to utilize the power of social media to also further this message. And so if you do that and you tag Marriage After God, we see it, we're gonna repost as many as we can, and I just want to say thank you right now for those who already have been sharing their Marriage After God story and the ones that will. [Aaron] Now, whether we're allowed to or not, I don't know. We're gonna read the entire introduction. It's a few pages, it's not very long. And this is from the book, Marriage After God. What if I told you that your marriage has a purpose far beyond happily ever after? What if I told you that the unity between you and your spouse was created for something extraordinary? God, your Creator and your Savior, has created you and your spouse with complete and perfect thoughtfulness. God, your provider and your heavenly Father has unlimited resources in immeasurable creativity. God, who is patient and loving, is pursuing you and your spouse every single day. Inviting you to participate in the extraordinary things He is already doing. Do you believe God wants more for your marriage than for you to just make each other happy? Do you believe God can do anything? Move mountains, open doors and part seas to get you to the place where he wants you the most? Belief is powerful. Belief propels people from a place of dreaming to a place of doing. Belief in God is confidence and trust in Him. Believing God made you and your marriage with great purpose is the beginning of an incredible adventure you will never regret. When Jennifer and I consider what spurred us toward a desire to serve God together, we agreed that it was our belief that God could and would use us as team for His glory. And that belief gave us the courage to say yes to Him over and over and over again. Even and especially during the hard times of our story. We said yes to God when we decided to stay together when it felt easier to walk away. We said yes to God when we chose to love each other even when we didn't feel so in love. We said yes to obeying His word when we did everything we could to get out of debt. We said yes to God when he showed us ways we could serve His body. And we said yes to God when he invited us to share our story. Not all of our yes' to God were easy, however, our mutual desire to please God is what helped us to say yes and to persevere. When Jennifer and I got married, we had a united desire to serve God together. We didn't know exactly what it would look like, but we were willing to explore the opportunities He had for us as a married couple. Throughout our time of dating and being engaged we prayed we would have an extraordinary marriage. However, we didn't stop there. We didn't only ask God for an extraordinary marriage, we also prayed God would use our marriage to do extraordinary things to build His kingdom. Since we said, "I do." And committed our marriage to the Lord, we have been on a journey of saying yes to God. A journey we both agree has been quite extraordinary. Not only because of the experiences we have had, or the accomplishments we have reached, but because God is extraordinary. And he longs to bring his extraordinary into our lives. He is the reason we have been able to endure this journey together. We have experienced both poverty and abundance. We have traveled to different parts of the world as missionaries motivated to share the Gospel with others. We have started businesses and ministries. We have overcome destructive sin patterns. We have grown our family size intentionally striving to leave a legacy with our children. And we continue to participate in God's plan for our lives as He invites us to do all that He prepared for us to do together. But it is all because of God. He gets the glory in our lives. [Jennifer] Our journey has not been void of the enemies attacks to thwart God's purpose for our marriage. In fact, the enemies flaming arrows in combination with our own sin almost destroyed our marriage. Pornography addiction, emotional eating, irrational jealousy, foolishness and constant battles of selfishness and pride have all been difficult areas of our marriage that we have had to battle. The hardships we have encountered in marriage have been painful. We have often wrestled with doubt and insecurities about our relationship with each other and with God. Yet no matter what we faced, and no matter what we will face in the future, we continue to pray that God will give us an extraordinary marriage and that He will use our marriage for his extraordinary purposes. [Aaron] In 2011, Jennifer and I launched our online marriage ministries, husbandrevolution.com and unvieledwife.com. To share with husbands and wives what God was teaching us about marriage. When we began these ministries, we had no idea what they would become. Motivated by a perspective that our lives are a ministry for God to work through. We said yes to God when he invited us to share our story with the world. In a way we were already familiar with, blogging. [Jennifer] Through these two sites we share daily marriage prayers, encouragement, biblical teaching on faith and marriage, date night ideas and reviews of Christian books and movies. We share personal stories of what we have experienced in our own marriage and how God continues to transform us into the husband and wife he created us to be. Since the first day we created these ministries, our desire has been to encourage married couples to turn their hearts toward God and trust in Him with their marriage. With the few tools we had in our tool belt we got started and this adventure quickly grew into an unimaginable reach into the hearts and homes of couples all around the world. With the influence we were gaining in the lives of other married couples, we asked the Lord to use us to encourage them to be biblical men and women. We were confident that if we could inspire them and challenge them to be people who read God's Word and desire His will for their lives, that God would move in these marriages and use them for the marvelous work He desires His people to do. We imagined hundreds of thousands of strong, thriving marriages reflecting God's love story and impacting the lives of others as they faithfully live out all that God has called them to. We envisioned husbands and wives being unified in their relationship and in their parenting, full of joy and contentment. We could see communities being blessed by the lives and examples of these couples. We could see relationships being healed. Needs being met. Talents being used. Businesses and ministries being started. And the lost being saved. Because husbands and wives said yes to God. Working together to build his kingdom. [Aaron] Eager to see husbands and wives embrace what God has for them, we wondered how we could inspire them to start considering the purpose of their marriage and help guide them to set the foundation necessary to fulfill that purpose. We wanted to point them to the Word of God and prompt them to answer some challenging questions. We felt led to write two devotionals that would lead a husband and wife through God's Word and invite them to consider how they can actively pursue an extraordinary God-centered marriage. We co-authored and self-published Husband After God and Wife After God. 30-day devotionals that have been read by 1000's of men and women. Not long after publishing our devotionals, we began to receive messages from couples asking what they could read next to encourage them on their marriage journey. So we began to consider what resource we could provide next to inspire husbands and wives to consider chasing after God. This is the seed that would grow into the message of Marriage After God. We knew God wanted more couples to pray the same prayer we have been praying and to experience his extraordinary purpose for their lives. Yet, we believed it was also a message God wanted us to experience in our marriage for ourselves. He wanted us to mature in our relationship with each other and with Him. We wouldn't say we are done experiencing what it means to have a Marriage After God. In reality, this will be a message we will continue to live out and pursue until Christ returns or we are called home. However, God has given us an incredible opportunity to present this message to others through this book. To inspire husbands and wives who want to chase after Him. And to do His will together. And we are eager to see how God uses this book to do His work in all of our lives. [Jennifer] A Marriage After God is an extraordinary journey of making ourselves known to God, knowing God and being willing to let Him use our marriages for His purposes. And Marriage After God is one that can faithfully say what the people of Israel said in Exodus 19:8. "All that the Lord has spoken, we will do." Happily ever after is a nice thought and a good thing to hope for. But it should not be your end goal. There's an amazing purpose for your marriage. More than just making each other happy. We desire you to pursue kingdom purposes with your marriage. To be a testimony to others of God's love and amazing grace. This world we live in has been tainted by darkness, but you are called to be the light of the world. It is you and your marriage that should be the light people long to experience. But you cannot be a light for others if you are allowing your marriage to be overrun by darkness. Those who belong to God have been created for so much more. You have been created for so much more. And your spouse has been created for so much more. Our vision for this book is to get you and your spouse excited about using your marriage for God. We desire that you two experience the incredible intimacy of unity as you boldly chase after God's will and purpose for your marriage. [Aaron] This book is for the marriages who are ready to finally see what God brought them together for. Maybe you and your spouse have been having conversation about what is next. What you should be investing in, or how you can be used by God to effectively fulfill the purpose he created you for. The purpose he brought you together for. You have been in a great place in your marriage and with God, but there is a tugging on your heart to do something more. You picked up this book because you don't want to be stagnant. You want to experience this extraordinary. Our hope and prayer is that this book takes you on a journey of discovery, inspiration and affirmation as God invites you to work together as a team for His glory. [Jennifer] If you and your spouse are in a different place, a broken place where you are barely hanging on, our hope is that this book will be the very thing to convince you to turn your heart back toward God and have the courage to change your perspective of your spouse and your marriage. Maybe it'll be the very thing your marriage needs to push you closer to the only one who can help you put it back in order. [Aaron] So we welcome you. No matter what condition your marriage is currently in and we challenge you to take this adventure with us to commit your marriage to God. And see how he moves in your life, your spouses life, and the many other lives he will impact because you were willing to say yes to Him. Everything begins with a first step. Reading this book is your first step. We pray it won't be long before you and your spouse are running with your hearts aligned with God's toward the extraordinary good work God has already prepared for you to do. [Jennifer] You were created for this. Ephesians 2:10 confirms this declaring. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." You and our spouse were made by God and your marriage relationship was designed by Him to do good works for His name sake. Works that he had in mind long before you were created. You can believe this truth and so be empowered to walk in the extraordinary purpose you have been uniquely created by God to do. [Aaron] So that was the introduction to Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Who's read to jump in? [Aaron] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, it's convicting reading our own books sometimes. [Jennifer] Yeah, we have tears in our eyes every time we have the chance to read it, which has been several times now. We get this stirring in our hearts and this question of what do we do next? What are we gonna do for Him? [Aaron] What we're gonna answer some questions that people from the community have given us about the book. And then we're gonna close with the prayer that was at the end of the introduction. It's actually in the book. There's a prayer that we put in there. The first question is, will there be questions in the book, journal or discussion questions? [Jennifer] Yeah, at the end of every chapter, there are a set of one to three questions that have to do with that chapters topic. [Aaron] There's another question that goes along with this. Is it a book or is it a devotional? A devotional is smaller chunks of content with questions to discuss. But we wanted to clarify that this is a 16 chapter, 50 plus 1000 word book with questions at the end. It can be used like a devotional, but it is definitely a book. It's a hard cover book with a jacket. It's definitely distinct from a devotional. Especially like our Husband and Wife After God devotionals. Which are like a hundred pages. This is significantly [Jennifer] Larger. [Aaron] Larger, yeah. [Jennifer] Okay, so the next question is, can the questions be done as a couple? [Aaron] Oh, absolutely. Our hope is that this book is done-- [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] With your spouse. [Jennifer] Our recommendation is that you actually use the questions in the back as discussion questions going into a date night, or maybe you guys have time set aside to read the book together. Maybe you read that chapter and then you use the questions to stimulate that conversation. [Aaron] Yeah, maybe it's like a nightly routine. You guys read a chapter together. Discuss the questions together and that was the intention of them. But yes, there'll be questions at the end of each chapter. Yes, you can do them separately and then maybe talk about them together. But we totally always encourage couples to do them together. [Jennifer] Can small groups go through the book? [Aaron] We said this in the beginning. Our heart is that [Jennifer] You do. [Aaron] You do. Yeah, this would be so awesome if when we started hearing testimonies of couples saying, "hey we invited two of our married friends over and we're doing this every week now." 16 week Bible study would be amazing and just reading a chapter kind of like a book club. Read a chapter as a group and then come together and discuss the questions maybe. Some of the questions might be too intimate to do in a group, but hey. [Jennifer] You never know. [Aaron] Yeah, that would be amazing. I'm excited to hear about that. This is kind of along the same lines. Someone says would you recommend a husband and wife go through the book first and then do a group? [Jennifer] I would say yeah, just so that you can wrap your head around what the message of a Marriage After God is. And then jump into it. I feel like you would have a better experience overall facilitating a group like that. [Aaron] Yeah, but if you are wanting to do this right away. Let's say you have a bunch of friends or like hey let's just do this together and get-- [Jennifer] You absolutely could do that. [Aaron] Absolutely. Either or, but if you are the only one that got the book and your friends don't know about it yet, maybe go through it first. And then invite them. Yeah, absolutely if you wanted to do it together right away, that should probably be really fun because you'd be experiencing the book at the same time. [Jennifer] Cool, okay so the next question is. I can never say these two words together. [Aaron] Will there [Jennifer] Will there be video lessons with this book? [Aaron] Probably eventually. Definitely not when the book launches. Unless we like hustle. But yes, there's gonna be eventually a workbook. There'll eventually be videos to go along with it. [Jennifer] That was one of the questions too. Is there a study guide to go along with it? [Aaron] Yeah, those will come later. My wife and I do all those together. And it's pretty much just us, so we will produce stuff eventually. This was a really cool question I got. Someone said we'd love to know if there's gonna be other groups doing it together? And they said it in a way like it'd be scary doing it on our own, like being the only group doing it. And they said it'd be awesome if we knew that hundreds of other groups were doing it at the same time. Or doing it so you'd be like, "oh, we're not the only ones doing this together." [Jennifer] It's a global community, kind of doing the same thing. [Aaron] I don't know how we're gonna do this, but I think we, Jennifer, should think about how we can have some sort of sign-up where people can say, "hey, we're doing this just so that other people know that it's being done." [Jennifer] I love that and I know this. With so many people on social media, if you take a picture of your group and-- [Aaron] That's exactly what it should be, yeah. [Jennifer] Use the hashtag Marriage After God. When that posts and we see it, we'll repost that and then people will start to see it happening. [Aaron] That's a great way of doing it. If you're meeting with a group, every single time you meet, take a picture. And post it and we'll post about it. And what that'll do is, that'll encourage other people like, "hey, we got the book, let's do a group." That's a great idea. [Jennifer] Okay, you mentioned this already, but can engaged couples get the book and read it? [Aaron] I say yeah. I don't feel like that there's any content in it that's inappropriate for an engaged couple. [Jennifer] The only thing I will say is depending on the questions in the back of the book, if there's intimate ones or one's that maybe you can't relate to because you're not married yet, save them to discuss till after you're married. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Because if they're engaged, they usually have a date. [Aaron] What might also be cool, is if the couple wanna go through the book separately and then after they get married discuss the questions on how they thought they might answer or-- [Jennifer] Oh that's cool. [Aaron] Some sort of fun, like go through the book during the engaged season. [Jennifer] Maybe use them as journal questions. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Write about it. [Aaron] Talk about how I might answer that after I'm married, or after I'm a wife, after I'm a husband. And then come together and go through it together again and see how your answers match up maybe. That'd be a really fun exercise. Here's a question that someone asked. Will there be a bundle discount for churches, for groups? [Jennifer] First of all, what is a bundle discount? [Aaron] They buy a bunch of books, 20 books, 25 books, and they get a discount as a group discount. Yes, I don't know what that looks like and it's gonna definitely happen after the book launches and I don't know when, but we will definitely let people know how that'll work so churches can definitely get bundle discounts. [Jennifer] Okay, the next question is. Does it have our personal testimony as a marriage in it? [Aaron] That's what's cool about this book is much of the book is principles and ideas and concepts that the Lord taught us through very specific times in our life. [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] Difficulties, successes. [Jennifer] Conversations. [Aaron] Conversations, relationships we've had. You did the chronological story thing in the Unveiled Wife. [Jennifer] Yeah, which there's way more detail about our marriage story in there. [Aaron] But from your perspective. [Jennifer] And just from my perspective. [Aaron] Where this is the last 12 years of our marriage and it's lots of stories, lots of relational things. [Jennifer] And it's both of us. [Aaron] And it's both of us. [Jennifer] A lot of stories that I couldn't have shared in the Unveiled Wife because they happen after the fact. [Aaron] Exactly. Yes it does, but they're used as illustrations for the ideas that we're trying to convey, so yes and yes. What can a single person expect to get out of this book? This is kind of along the lines as the engaged thing. [Jennifer] I think that a single person reading this book will get really fired up for the desire of marriage. Which they probably already have. But they'll be really excited to jump into marriage with that heart of prayer to have an extraordinary marriage to use their marriage for God to build his kingdom. I think their perspective of marriage will be have a Godly and biblical foundation. [Aaron] Yeah, singles are definitely not the intended audience for this book, but if someone read it, that's thinking, "man, I wanna prepare for marriage, I wanna be preparing my heart and my mind." It'll definitely, introspectively point them to say, "wow, am I actually thinking this way?" What am I thinking marriage is gonna do for me versus what is our marriage gonna do for God? I think it'd be really powerful for someone thinking about marriage, preparing for marriage to go through it, although it's not the intended audience. That was a handful of the questions that we got. I love the group questions that people are excited to do them in groups and I can't wait to start seeing photos posted. I think that was a great suggestion. [Jennifer] I know. If someone wants to be a movement starter, a Marriage After God movement starter, remind them what they can do. [Aaron] Pray, just pray for the hearts that God's calling that who's gonna get this book. Pray for us. [Jennifer] Pray for marriages, because they're under attack just by the enemy. [Aaron] Pray that God's will just be done in this world through us. Get a copy of our book. [Jennifer] Go order right now, please. [Aaron] Amazon.com, search for Marriage After God. You'll find that it's a big read book. [Jennifer] With pretty sparkles of gold. [Aaron] Then start praying and asking what couples in your life God might want you to invite to do a home group at your house with this book. I hope that answered some questions for you guys. I hope you guys are excited like we are for the book Marriage After God. It comes out June 4th. And before we close today. Oh you know what we never told anyone? [Jennifer] What the series-- [Aaron] What the series is gonna be like [Jennifer] Okay, brace yourselves. [Aaron] Okay, the next 16 episodes of the Marriage After God podcast are all gonna be geared around topics from the Marriage After God book. [Jennifer] But how cool is this guys? We have awesome people coming on. We're gonna interview them about being and having a marriage after God. [Aaron] Yeah. We haven't done any interviews on this podcast. It's not every, actually no every-- [Jennifer] It's every episode. [Aaron] Is gonna be an interview. That's so cool. The next 16 episodes are gonna be interviews with friends of ours. People that we've done ministry with in the past. All sorts of cool people. You should be excited about that. We are excited about it. Before we close, I'm gonna read the prayer from the end of the introduction of our book. Would you join us in prayer? Dear Lord, we pray for the husbands and wives reading this book. May your Holy Spirit use this book to inspire their hearts to boldly chase after you and to say yes to the extraordinary invitation you have prepared for them. We pray this couple will grow in their understanding of the power and purpose of their marriage. Reveal to them the specific plans you have for them. We pray you would use this marriage to do incredible work to build your kingdom. In this dark world may you protect this couple from the attacks of the enemy. May you cleanse them from sin and continue to shape them into the husband and wife you created them to be. May they realize they bear your image and that they are a light in this world and a beacon of hope to the lost and lonely. We ask you to guide this couple and unite them as a team. To carry out the unique purposes you have for them. In Jesus name, Amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on the first episode kicking off our Marriage After God series on the Marriage After God podcast. [Jennifer] So much Marriage After God. [Aaron] Yeah, lots of Marriage After God. We hope you're being inspired. We hope you're getting excited. God's got huge plans for you. We know it. He's got plans for us. It's not like he's only got plans for us, that's why we wrote this book. He's got plans for all of us. We're part of his body and we just pray that you would know that. That you would know that he wants to show you why he created you and why he brought you and your spouse together. We love you. We thank you for joining us and I pray that you look forward to the next 16 episodes and we'll see you next week. [Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources @marriageafterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

If you would like to support this podcast please consider picking up one of our marriage books. https://shop.marriageaftergod.com DESCRIPTION We think every married couple would agree that a little encouragement goes a long way! Marriage can be difficult and the enemy is good at convincing us that we should shrink back in our issues, isolate from one another, and try and get through it on our own strength. But we need to be reminded of who we are in this world, that we are loved, and that our marriage is valuable. We need to be reminded that our marriage has a great purpose for God's Kingdom. Every marriage needs this. That is why we are giving you 7 ways to encourage your married friends in this week's Marriage After God Podcast episode. We share a handful of ways you can be reminding your married friends that their marriage is worth fighting for, that they should be drawing close to God, and that they are being prayed for by you! As Christian husbands and wives, we should be encouraging other Christian husbands and wives, our dear friends, and the very people who are part of the same body, one body, Christ's body! Let's be the kind of friends that are loving, sacrificial, and willing to serve. Let's be light in people's lives. We hope this episode inspires you to reach out to your friends today, let them know they are not alone and that their marriage is valuable. The Lifegiving Table: Nurturing Faith through Feasting, One Meal at a Time - by Sally Clarkson -> https://amzn.to/2Vn2xpS READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're gonna share seven ways to encourage your married friends. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, [Aaron] love, [Jennifer] and power [Aaron] that can only be found by chasing after God [Jennifer] together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us for the first episode of 2019. [Jennifer] Woo hoo! [Aaron] Yeah. And we just wanna invite you to leave a review. If you've been enjoying this podcast since last year and are just loving the content, if you wanna help get the word out, one of the best ways to do that is to leave a star rating, which is super easy, you just scroll to the bottom of the iTunes app, if you're listening on iTunes, and you hit a star rating, that's enough. And if you want to do more, you can actually leave a text review, and we read through those all. They're really encouraging and yeah. We'd just love to invite you to do that. [Jennifer] We'd also like you to know that one of the ways that this podcast is supported is through people like you shopping through our store. So if you would like to check out just the resources that we've created for you for your marriage to encourage you guys, go to shop.marriageaftergod.com. [Aaron] Okay, so let's start off with our icebreaker question. Jennifer, what is one thing you are passionate about? [Jennifer] Well, something I don't know if they know about me is I'm very passionate about art. I love all things art, but specifically painting and restoring furniture. So like, I just got an old desk for Olive and it was multicolored and had designs on it and-- [Aaron] It was unique, yeah. [Jennifer] It was very unique, very bold dark blue and green. But I just, I covered it all with some chalk paint and did this kind of antique finish on it. It turned out really great, went to Hobby Lobby, got some knobs for it, so just doing kind of creative things like that, I love jumping into projects like that. [Aaron] Yeah, and you're good at it, too. [Jennifer] Aw, thanks. [Aaron] You should actually post some pictures from old art projects you've done in the past, like the blue lady-- [Jennifer] Maybe I'll do that. [Aaron] And I'm thinking of the Jesus painting you did a while ago. You're actually really good at it. [Jennifer] Thanks. What about you? [Aaron] Yeah, something I'm passionate about, I'm actually passionate about, and this wasn't planned, but I'm passionate about helping people with their businesses. Maybe people don't know this about me, but I do a little bit of consulting here and there. I don't do it publicly necessarily, but like, lots of our friends I've helped with their businesses, with their websites, with the creative, the marketing, I actually really love it. [Jennifer] Yeah, you're good at that, too. I feel like you have just something unique about you where you could just seriously look at any kind of business project, any goal that someone has and go, oh yeah, this is what you should do to make it awesome. [Aaron] And sometimes it works. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, but that's what I'm passionate about. I like the one on one consulting-- [Jennifer] The going back and forth. [Aaron] The going back and forth, the brainstorming, the ideation. [Jennifer] Ideation, that's what you're good at. That's awesome. [Aaron] So that's what we're passionate about. There's a lot of things we're passionate about, but those are some specific ones that people might not know about us. Okay, so we have, before we get into the main topic, we have a quote from the book, The Lifegiving Table, by Sally Clarkson. [Jennifer] This is a really great book if you guys wanna jump into for, well the subtitle is Nurturing Faith through Feasting, One Meal at a Time, and she talks a lot about just creating your family culture around the table and she gives ideas on how to do that. She even gives recipes in the book, but on page 219 she says this: "Having deep, meaningful relationships "is not just a pleasant addition to our lives, "but an element essential to our identities." [Aaron] That's good. And it's about what we're talking about today. [Jennifer] Yeah, so we're gonna be talking about friendships and specifically your friends who are married and engaging in community with them. [Aaron] And specifically on how your marriage can be an encouragement to those other marriages. Because a part of being a marriage after God is not that it's just about us and what we're doing in the world and God's using us for, but that we are walking with other Christians as the body of Christ, for his purposes, for what he's doing, and one of those things, man, the New Testament, I feel like almost everything that's said in the New Testament is about our relationship with one another. You know, especially the Book of Ephesians, which is the relationship book, it's about our relationship with God, our relationship with each other as husband and wife, with our children. And so God loves relationships. [Jennifer] Yeah, he does. [Aaron] He came because of relationships. He died for relationship. [Jennifer] And Sally actually mentions just before that quote that I just read, she mentions how God created us in His image, and if He's a relational being then we are as well. [Aaron] Yeah, and that's exactly what we are, and I feel like one of the things the enemy does is makes us wanna be alone, wants to get us away from community with other believers, makes us feel like we're the only ones who think the way we think, or every time I get close to people, I get hurt. Which is funny, 'cause that's exactly how relationships work, they're sticky. [Jennifer] They're messy, yeah. [Aaron] They're messy. And you're probably not close enough to someone if you're not feeling hurt sometimes. Doesn't mean that we should be hurting each other, but it's just, it's natural for that to happen. But the enemy doesn't like it. He doesn't like us being connected with one another, closely tied together, 'cause we're stronger together. It's true in every aspect of life. You see it in the animal kingdom, you see it in the human kingdom, and when we're together, when we're unified, when we're one, when we're walking together, we strengthen each other, we're less prone to being attacked, we're less prone to falling, and when we do, we have someone to pick us up. Right? And so we're gonna talk a little bit about how your marriage, you listening right now, can encourage other marriages. [Jennifer] And it's so important 'cause I mean, when I think about some of the kingdom work, the things that God has us purposed to do, I think about evangelism and I think about telling, sharing the gospel with people who don't know Him. [Aaron] Yeah, the lost, yeah. [Jennifer] Right, the lost. But it's also so important to remember that even as Christians, we need to be reminded of these things, we need to be reminded of who God is in our life and how He's working and how He's moving in our life, and I think that's such a great thing about friendship is we can do that for each other. And that's why I'm really excited about this episode, 'cause we're gonna give you some kind of practical things and just encourage you to be those type of people in your relationships with your other married couple friends. [Aaron] Yeah, and if it wasn't for other marriages encouraging us, we would not be here today. [Jennifer] That's true. [Aaron] As in, we'd probably be divorced, but we had couples who loved us enough to dive into our messiness, to peer in, to say hard things to us, to encourage us, to be there late into the night. You know, we've talked about this in past episodes, you talk about it in your book, but just all the tears, all the laughter, all the late nights, all the food. There's all these things that were incorporated into our relationships and people loving on us and walking with us. [Jennifer] And we all need that. Like, even those listening, they're probably going well I need that. I just wanna encourage all of us to be the people that we need in our lives. [Aaron] That's a good one. We need to be the people. Yeah, we need to be the example, we need to. And you know what? Sometimes we don't feel like we can be that person, but we still should be. Because it's the times that you feel like you can't be it that you probably need to be it. [Jennifer] So this is really funny, it reminds me of growing up, my grandma used to say 'cause we'd all eat a bunch of food when we got to her house and then we'd all just wanna like, lay around on the couch and she'd go, 'kay it's time for a walk, 'cause that's the best time to take a walk, is when you feel like you don't-- [Aaron] You wanna go to bed. [Jennifer] Yeah, when you feel like you wanna go to bed or when you feel like you can't. [Aaron] And hasn't science like, proven that now? It's like, it helps with digestion to go for a walk after you eat? [Jennifer] I don't know, I just remember my grandma always saying it. [Aaron] Grandma knew things. Yeah, so-- [Jennifer] So here's our encouragement to you, to go take a walk. No. [Aaron] Yeah, go get some food, take a walk. No but, I feel like this is important to, 'cause we all have friends, but how many of us have friends that we know intimately, that they're more like family to us? And I think it needs to be happening more in the Church. If we realize that being a part of the body of Christ literally means that we are unified with other Christians, not just well yeah, I go to church with so-and-so and oh yeah, they're nice but they don't know anything about you and they're never in your life. And we can't do this with every single Christian, but we can do it with some. [Jennifer] Yeah, and those who are already closest to us. [Aaron] Oh yeah. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, so why don't we just get into the seven ways? [Jennifer] Let's do it. Okay, you wanna start with number one? [Aaron] Yeah. You mentioned a minute ago about the gospel and how in evangelism, preaching the gospel to the lost, but when I read the Bible, when I read the New Testament, it's all about reminding the believer of what the gospel says. It's pretty incredible if you think about it. Doesn't mean we shouldn't preach the gospel to the lost, that's what we preach the gospel for, is for salvation, that Jesus would be preached and that people would turn their hearts to him and that they would join the body of Christ. But those that are in the body of Christ, I believe we need to be preaching the gospel to each other more often, not just assuming like, oh everyone, yeah, we're saved, we got the gospel. The gospel is the power of God. It's the thing that changes us, and many of the hard things that we walk through in life and like, our sins and things that we might have a hard time escaping, is because we haven't, either we've forgotten the gospel or we haven't truly understood it. Because the gospel is the thing that saves us, it's the thing that transforms us, it's the thing that makes us be like Christ. [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] Yeah, so I wanna read this scripture, it's Romans 1:16. Paul says this, he says, "For I am not "ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God, "for salvation to everyone who believes, "to the Jew first and also to the Greek." And so in encouraging our friends, I think one of the most powerful things we can do is constantly be reminding them of the gospel, that we were once sinners lost in our sin, deserving the wrath of God because he's a just God, but because God loved us so much, John 3:16, he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him will not perish under the wrath that we deserve. Jesus took the wrath we deserved, and if we believe in him and we follow him, we actually receive salvation and grace. And our relationship with God is made new and that's the gospel. [Jennifer] Preach it. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] It's so good. So here's the thing that I know that this episode is for us to get our minds on our friends and how we can be a vessel of God's love and grace toward them, but when we say what you just said, when we have a heart directed towards our friends in reminding them of the gospel, what does that actually do for us? Like what's, there's benefit there. [Aaron] I think it's like, practice first of all. Practice preaching the gospel. You know, sadly I believe many Christians don't even know what the actual gospel is. And so saying it over and over again, it not only reminds us, but it gives us practice on how to preach the gospel. And you're preaching it in a safe environment 'cause you're preaching it to someone who already believes it. [Jennifer] Right. [Aaron] And you're reminding them, so you're loving them and you're saying hey, brother, sister, all these things that you're walking in right now, filter them through the gospel. Remember that we actually, what we deserve is eternal punishment. And but because God loved us so much and he sent his son to die for us, we don't get eternal punishment, we get all of the benefits of being a son of God and a daughter of God, which is what the Bible teach us, that is the gospel. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I just feel like if we're sharing the gospel with our friends, if we're reminding them of who we are in light of God's love story, then we're gonna be reminded of that constantly. It's gonna be on the forefront of our minds. [Aaron] Exactly, it will. And I think about when you have a brother and sister walking in sin. Like let's say you have a married couple, friends of yours, and the husband's not necessarily loving his wife as Christ loves the Church, which is what Ephesians five teaches us. Or you have a wife not walking in reverence or submission to her husband and you say hey, I just wanna encourage you guys, do you remember what the gospel says? Like, if you recognize what we should've gotten but what we do receive, it actually brings us back to a place of healthy reverence and fear for the Lord and it reminds us of his goodness. And then you know what? It often brings us to repentance. Lord, you know what? I'm so sorry. Change me and make me like you want me to be because I love you and you've given me everything that I don't deserve. It reminds us of how we can be and who we should be and who God's made us to be and who He sees us as already, which is awesome. So the gospel I think is the most powerful thing we can continually be doing in our friends' lives, and like you said, it reminds us, too. [Jennifer] Yeah. Okay, so moving on to number two, and when we were going through the notes, I actually asked Aaron, isn't that the same as number one? And so I'm gonna let Aaron explain it, but it's share with them the truth of God's word. [Aaron] Yeah, so it definitely is. The gospel is a part of that, but there's often just practically, think about how many times for you, you've been going through something and I remind you of certain scriptures-- [Jennifer] That's true. [Aaron] That are truth and promises, and instead of you walking in the feeling, you're like, oh I can actually look at that and start thinking on that and dwelling on that. [Jennifer] Okay that's good, and I've had other friends reach out to me through a text message and you know, share a verse with me and just let me know that they're thinking about me and praying for me, and that is really powerful. So sharing God's word-- [Aaron] Yeah, there's nothing more powerful than the word of God. [Jennifer] Yeah, so sharing God's word with them, and practically, it could look like a phone call, a text message, a card, you know, all those things. Word of mouth, when you're sitting in front of them with coffee. [Aaron] Yeah, a little note on this, we've gotta be in the word of God. [Jennifer] In order to share it. [Aaron] To be prepared to share it, 'cause our friends might come to us and just mention something that they're going through or the way they're talking you just think like, oh man, I think they need to hear this. They're not thinking about this correctly. And then finding that scripture and saying, hey can I just read something to you? What's awesome about the word of God is instead of it just being my opinion, I think you should do this. Even if my opinion is founded in the word of God, it's still just me. But I can say hey, I just want you to know that like, lemme read this to you. Now what has to happen is they have to argue with the Bible. [Jennifer] Yeah, the authority of God. [Aaron] Yeah, as long as we're coming in a heart of love and encouragement, and our heart is to help them grow and we're gonna treat them the way we wanna be treated. Man, scripture is powerful. The Bible tells us that the word of God does not come, it goes out and does not return void. Meaning it's going to accomplish what it's going to accomplish. [Jennifer] Yeah. That's really good and I was just thinking, if your friends are married, chances are you, even if you don't know the specifics of what they might be going through in that week, you know that marriage can be difficult, and so you can just find a verse that's gonna encourage that. Like, does that make sense? [Aaron] Yeah, and you could be sending them like, large portions of scripture. Be like, hey can I encourage you today to read this chapter? And just say, look out for this word or look out for this. You know, I feel like God's heart for you is He wants you to know this about Himself. He wants you to know this about yourself. And on top of that, encouraging your friends to be in the word of God. Saying hey, are you guys reading? [Jennifer] Yeah that's huge. Challenge them, yeah. [Aaron] Jennifer we talk about this often, the times that we feel ourselves slipping into this routine of a little bit of bickering, which is totally sinful, we've talked about this in the past. [Jennifer] Just poor attitudes. [Aaron] Poor attitudes or just bad perspectives, discontentment. We realize man, we haven't been very consistent in the word of God. We've gotten out of sync, because the word of God puts our minds on the spirit rather than the flesh, and when we're not in the word of God, our natural tendency is just to walk in the flesh. So just continually reminding them. [Jennifer] A couple weeks ago I had, we were over at some friend's house and I was sitting on the couch with the wife and I asked her, I said so you know, have you been reading lately? Are you getting into a routine of being in God's word? And she shared with me that she had but it was kind of a struggle, and so I got to encourage her. And then she goes, what about you? And I was like, oh man, this is so good that I asked that question because I needed it myself. And I had just-- [Aaron] And you're like no. [Jennifer] No I was honest with her, I go you know, it's been really hard for me to get up in the morning and I wasn't doing that and so it challenged me to then change. And so I just think you know, being willing to even go to those hard places and ask those hard questions knowing they're probably gonna ask you back, it's good, it's all good. [Aaron] And you bring up a really good point. I think this is why a lot of people avoid saying things, because we know internally that-- [Jennifer] It's gonna come back to us. [Aaron] Well, the moment we say it, either we're lying or we're a hypocrite or we're doing it. [Jennifer] But this is also why we need that. Like, we need this. [Aaron] Yeah, walking in light as he is in light, as Jesus prays for us in John 17 and in first John, chapter one, he says if we have fellowship with God, then we have fellowship with one another. And if we walk in the light, then we, we'll have fellowship with one another. So the light that we walk in is doing and saying the things that God wants us to do, even if it means that we're going to also be told the same things. And that's the point of it, is that we're growing together and being built up together. And so man, you're right, saying something means you're gonna be vulnerable and have to be told the same thing or at least hear the same thing because you're saying it out of your own mouth. [Jennifer] Yeah. And just a practical note for this portion of this episode, what are some hard questions that they can ask their friends besides are you in the word? 'Cause I know another one is hey, have you been submissive to your husband? How are you guys doing in that department? [Aaron] That's a hard one to ask, right? [Jennifer] Well I know you and the guys usually ask, what do you guys usually ask? [Aaron] We ask each other does your wife feel cherished? And often the question is, and we wrote this in our book, my pastor always brings it up, could your wife say today that she is the most cherished woman she knows? And so for the husbands listening right now, I have a question for you. Is your wife the most cherished woman she knows? Could she say that? And if you can think to yourself I don't know if she would say that, you need to ask yourself that question. You need to figure out how to walk the way Ephesians 5:25 tells you to walk. [Jennifer] And then when you're catching up with your friends who are also married, who are also husbands and wives, be willing to ask each other hard questions like this, because this is what's gonna encourage us but also change us. [Aaron] And if someone who says they're your friend says it's none of your business, then you should ask yourself if that person really sees you as a friend. [Jennifer] Or be praying for them even more. [Aaron] Because it should be our business. I think of Cain and Abel. Cain kills his brother Abel, this is in the beginning of the Bible, and God comes to Cain and says where's your brother? And he says what, am I my brother's keeper? And the point was is God asked him where his brother was at, which means God was asking him where his brother was at. So do we know where our brothers are at? Or we can just say like, I'm not my brother's keeper. And in reality, that's not loving our brothers at all. [Jennifer] Right, if we love them we'll know where they're at. [Aaron] And we're actually supposed to be keepers of each other's hearts and relationships with God, and we walk with each other and it's safe, and so yes, we are keepers of our brothers and we just have to realize that. And so, that means I'm accountable to other Christians. If they ask me hey, is your wife cherished? I'm responsible as a believer to say truthfully yes or no, not get out of my business. Because if I don't want another Christian in my business, then am I a Christian? Because we're all a part of the same body. [Jennifer] Right, it's all one body. That's really good. So for those listening, if they have been resistant to let people into those intimate parts of their lives, this is a challenge for them to hear, to give maybe not everyone, maybe just a handful of people that permission. [Aaron] Yeah, and for those that are feeling that, like oh maybe we're not letting people in, go read Proverbs 18:1. It's a good scripture to talk about that kind of person who does that. [Jennifer] Yeah. Okay, so let's move on to number three, and it's be friendly. Proverbs 18:24 says, "A man who has friends "must himself be friendly, but there is a friend "who sticks closer than a brother." [Aaron] That's powerful. Like, it seems totally simple, right? But if you wanna have friends, we gotta be friendly. Like, so are we just being friendly, are we reaching out? Are we opening up our hearts? Are we laughing with, or are we just like sticks in the mud, which is how I can be sometimes. [Jennifer] Are we being vulnerable? [Aaron] Yeah, are we being vulnerable? [Jennifer] Are we being truthful? Because sometimes you can be in a room with people and you can kind of just tell, you know, they're not-- [Aaron] Yeah, we're surface level. [Jennifer] They're being surface level or they're not being open with me. [Aaron] Yeah, and friendly is like not, like we just kind of were talking about it before, not being afraid to let people in, not being afraid to be seen and known. [Jennifer] Yeah. I feel like being friendly also comes with thoughtfulness. Like, you have to be thoughtful of each other and maybe even what each other likes. Like, I have a handful of girlfriends who I know what kind of coffee they like and I can randomly drop it off for them when I know they're having a hard day, or you know, just little things like that. I think thoughtfulness is such a big part of friendship. That can be an encouragement. [Aaron] And I think of friendly, there's a word I also think of, of light. Like, are we light around our friends? Do they feel like it's always this work to be in our presence? Or is it light to be in our presence? And that's kind of what I think about friendly. We've had relationships in the past, Jennifer, that they always felt heavy. Not that they were necessarily going through heavy things, it just felt like work to be around those people. And we made it a point to like, not be those people. So there's times that we'll ask hey, how are we being as friends? Are we easy to be around or are we hard to be around? [Jennifer] I also wanna make a note that we never let those relationships go just because they felt heavy. We felt it was our responsibility to be accountable to them still and to love them still and to be-- [Aaron] Took more work. [Jennifer] It did take more work, but I just wanna encourage those listening, if you have relationships, be praying for those couples and maybe talk about this, you know, with them, but don't give up on them. [Aaron] Or even say the hard thing and have them over for dinner, have no kids around and say, can we just share with you something? We love you, but you're hard. That's the truth of it. Hey we love you, but it's hard. Like, there's these things that have happened, and can we work on this together? How can we help you? How can, is there something you haven't recognized? But having those conversations means that you're being friendly. Like hey, we want to be in this relationship with you. We don't wanna just, 'cause the easy thing to do is you just write it off. And some people say let's dust our sandals off. That's the easy thing to do, but that's not what we do to the others in the body of Christ. We don't just dust people off. [Jennifer] Yeah, I would say a marriage after God is loyal and faithful and loves deeply and cares about the hearts of those people. So we don't just walk away from them. [Aaron] Now there are, we're not gonna get into this, but there are biblical reasons to cut off relationships. [Jennifer] Well, if you and your husband have set boundaries and those boundaries are being broken, absolutely I feel like that's necessary. [Aaron] Or if there's unrepentant sin and it's been called out but is not being, and those people aren't being willing to change, then the Bible tells us to avoid those people. But we're talking about normal Christian relationships, friends, not someone who's walking in unrepentant sin. [Jennifer] Okay, so be friendly. Aaron, do you wanna hit number four? [Aaron] Number four is be hospitable. This one could be hard, especially if you want your house to be a certain way all the time. [Jennifer] Like you have expectations. [Aaron] Yeah, or the people that you might, the friends you might invite over have more kids than you do or older kids or younger kids or, there's lots of scenarios that could be-- [Jennifer] Different dynamics. [Aaron] Difficult to say let's open up our home and have people over. But man, the Bible, God, the word of God tells us that we should be hospitable people. First Peter four, eight through nine says, "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, "since love covers a multitude of sins. "Show hospitality to one another without grumbling." So there's, I mean those are two verses that are super powerful in themselves, like love covers a multitude of sins? Which means if we can love with a Christ kind of love with our Christian brothers and sisters, there's a lot of things that that covers. It's pretty incredible. Now again, if someone's in unrepentant sin, that's different than someone who's come to you and repented of their sin. But our love can cover it, but the showing hospitality to one another. [Jennifer] What does that look like practically? [Aaron] Practically it means, hospitality means to open up what's ours. It is available. What I have is available to you. [Jennifer] And I wanna encourage people on this because sometimes we can look at a situation and think well, we don't have enough, and then therefore you're not gonna be hospitable in that moment, but how many times have a friend texted us and said they're in town, can they stop by for dinner? And I kind of like, I look at everything and it's halfway made and I'm thinking that very same thing, I don't think that there's enough, and then they get there and I spread everything out and it was a perfect amount. It was like exactly what we needed. [Aaron] Well and also just on that side of things, like of not having enough, the reason for having them over isn't because we have enough, it's to-- [Jennifer] It's because we wanna share it with them. [Aaron] It's because we're gonna share what we do have. [Jennifer] What we do have, yeah. That's good. [Aaron] And so we can, this is practically for us in the way we think and for those listening, hospitality is not sharing what you don't have, it's sharing what you do have. And so being willing to share, it's as simple as hey, you absolutely can come over, we would love to have dinner for you guys. We may not have enough to make you super full, so if you have anything you wanna bring, do it. But otherwise, just come and we will share with you what we have. [Jennifer] Now, there's other hospitality, too, where you kind of plan and prepare for it, knowing that you wanna bless this family or that family or that couple. [Aaron] So you save up for it. [Jennifer] And you save up for it or maybe they have a bigger family and you don't have enough utensils, go and get some plastic and just have a nice dinner on paper plates and plastic utensils. [Aaron] And there's something beautiful about having a little bit, too. And there's nothing wrong with having a little bit. You mentioned the bigger family thing. That's actually a good thought, 'cause sometimes we can feel, we can evaluate relationships and say well, me and you, we only have one kid, so we don't need to invite the family over that has four because they should do the opposite, like it's gonna be harder for us to accommodate a family of six because we're not used to that, so therefore, someone else should do it. But in reality, there's something beautiful about inviting that big family over because how often does that big family get invited to places? [Jennifer] That's true. [Aaron] We've actually had a situation in our own fellowship of big families saying we'd love to be invited over, we'd love to be thought of that way. [Jennifer] Yeah. So I have another example, when we were first married and we were in Christian community, we actually expected people to be hospitable to us because it was just us, and we could easily just come over and spend time with families. [Aaron] Yeah, we did have a one-way expectation. [Jennifer] We had a one-way expectation because we didn't have any kids and it was just easier, that we never invited really people over. I mean maybe a handful of times, but not-- [Aaron] Yeah, you're right. [Jennifer] Not very often. And I just thought about that just now, and so I just wanna encourage those listening who maybe they don't have kids, all the more be willing to open up what you do have and share that and build those relationships with people in a different life stage because there's good in all of it. God has created us to be able to encourage one another no matter where we are in our different life stages. [Aaron] Yeah and I think on the other side of that, we also didn't have much, we had not a lot of money, we didn't have a lot to give, we didn't have like, 20 plates and all these things, right? So we had this mentality of like, well since we have less, people that have more should take care of us. But Jesus points out the woman who gave her last mite, and he says she gave more, 'cause she gave out of her poverty, than that rich man who gave out of his wealth. And so there's something spiritually powerful about having the heart of hospitality even when you have little. [Jennifer] Yeah, and not letting expectations trip you up or stop you. [Aaron] No, but just out of a heart of like, God, I don't know how we're gonna bless these people but we'll share what we have. And invite someone, they may say no, but open up your home and open up what you have to other believers. And you never know, you might, we've seen this before. There was a time that me and you, I'm not trying to just toot our own horn, but we blessed a friend of ours who was in a much different financial situation than us, and it blew their mind. Because they're like, why would you give to us? We could've totally taken care of this and we're financially stable, when we were not in that place. And it actually totally ministered to them and showed them a level of generosity that's never been shown before to them. Just because we were obedient, we didn't think like, well they have enough, we don't need to help them. That's not how we were thinking. [Jennifer] No, we felt like God was telling us to do this and we were just trying to be obedient. [Aaron] Yeah, we were like hey let's bless so-and-so with this. And so the hospitality part of this is just a, it could be a powerful ministry tool to grow the Church, to build each other up. So why don't you do number five? [Jennifer] Okay, number five is be sacrificial. [Aaron] Which kinda ties in. [Jennifer] Yeah, I mean, I was telling Aaron, being sacrificial is kind of required with all of these. Whether it's time, energy, resources, whatever it is, but we just wanted to point out that a marriage after God, when it comes to their friendships and their married friends, they're sacrificial. They're available to other couples. They can be inconvenienced by them. [Aaron] Which is a sacrifice of our comfort. [Jennifer] And our time. [Aaron] Like getting a call in the middle of the night to help someone. Being up late with a couple to cry with them, to pray with them, to read to them, to support them. There's many ways, sacrificially, financially. Like oh, this person, so-and-so needs rent or groceries or whatever, or a date night. So yeah, just sacrificing our time for them, our talents, our energy, and just realizing that what God's given us isn't just for us, it's to be used for the body. [Jennifer] Yeah, John 15:13 says, "Greater love has no one than this, "than to lay down one's life for his friends." Are we doing that? [Aaron] Yeah, do we lay ourselves down or do we think like, well I would've done that but that was too inconvenient. [Jennifer] So I want those listening to do something real quick. Just the first couple that pops into your mind, your friends, your close friends-- [Aaron] Ooh, I like this. [Jennifer] Who are married, when was the last time you were sacrificial for them? That you expressed love in a sacrificial way? [Aaron] So just think about it, and then I would take it even a step further and say call them, text them. And as a couple, do something for them. [Jennifer] Find a way to love them. [Aaron] Yeah. Just go out of your way for that couple. [Jennifer] Okay, moving on to number six is pray for them and with them. [Aaron] Ooh. Praying for them's easy. [Jennifer] Sometimes not. [Aaron] I guess you're right, yeah. [Jennifer] Sometimes people struggle with prayer. But Aaron and I, a large portion of our ministry is to encourage you guys with prayer to pray, to be warriors of prayer, and this is important. [Aaron] I think of the scripture that says, it's the greatest commandment. The Pharisees came to Jesus and they said Jesus, what's the greatest commandment? And he tells them, he's like you tell me. And the Pharisee says to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. And in that situation, the Pharisee challenged him and said well, who's my neighbor? Well, we know who our closest neighbors are, it's our spouse. And then our other neighbors are brothers and sisters in Christ. And then there's our physical neighbors that live nextdoor to us. So we know who our neighbors are. But loving your neighbor as yourself, how many listening wouldn't love someone to pray for them? We get messages all the time of saying could you pray for me? Can you pray for my marriage? So if you want to be prayed for and prayed over and prayed with and thought of in that way and taken care of in that way, then love your neighbor as yourself. [Jennifer] Yeah, be those people. [Aaron] Pray without ceasing for your brothers and sisters in Christ so that they won't stumble, so that they will be encouraged, so that they will be strong and walk in purity. And be encouraging in the word of God and strengthened to do ministry and be healed and blessed and like, all the things that you would wanna be prayed for, pray for them. [Jennifer] Yeah. And sometimes you can go out of your way to ask them hey, what do you need prayer for? Hey, I'm praying for you right now, what can I pray for you? Text them, ask them. You know? It's powerful. [Aaron] A pet peeve of mine is, and we all have done this, I'm gonna pray for you and then don't pray. So make it a point. I've made it a point any time I tell someone I'm gonna pray for them, if I text it, if I, I stop in that moment and I pray. [Jennifer] Yeah, me too. [Aaron] I've just made it a habit because I didn't wanna be that yeah, I'll pray for you and just, now it's now a phrase that we say. Of like, I'm thinking of you. No, let's be in prayer for each other, because this world is wicked and the enemy wants to destroy us and to steal from us, and we just need to be battling for each other. [Jennifer] I was just thinking like, there's a whole spiritual battle going on and obviously the enemy hates marriage because God created it and God loves it and God uses it-- [Aaron] He hates everything God made. [Jennifer] Yeah, which means that all of our marriages, not one of us is outside of this truth, and that is that our marriages are under attack constantly. [Aaron] Yeah, and our faith and this, and Christ's Church just as a whole. So we need to praying for each other. You know, you pray for us, we'd love that. Pray for our marriage. [Jennifer]Thanks. [Aaron] Pray for our children. Pray for our families. So prayer is one of the ways you can encourage your, oh and then praying for them, like with them. Be in the presence of your friends and say we're gonna pray for you right now. [Jennifer] Yeah, maybe when you have them over that week for dinner, just set some time aside to say hey, we'd love to pray for you. [Aaron] Speaking of prayer, I was just at a friend's house today and he was telling me how his wife's just dealing with headaches, and I said let's go pray for her. And so before I left, me and him went down and we prayed for her. [Jennifer] That's awesome. I didn't know that, that's cool. [Aaron] And why don't we do that more? Like, why don't I do that more? And I'm talking to myself right now. We need to get in a spiritual habit of just praying for each other. I think a lot of things would change in our marriages. [Jennifer] Okay, moving on to the last one, number seven. [Aaron] Serve your friends. Serve 'em. I think if the scenario that Jesus did when he was in the upper room before he went to go die on the cross and he geared up his garb, wrapped it around his waist, got a bucket of water and a towel and he walked around and he scrubbed all of his disciples' feet. And he says do this, what you see me doing, do for one another. So, do we serve each other? Now, speaking allegorically about the feet, are we willing to touch our friends' dirty feet? What I mean is like, are we willing to get dirty with our friends and get into the muck and the mire of life and the painful things and serve them? [Jennifer] I know you said this in the beginning, but had our friends not done that with us, the people who became our friends by serving us, if we didn't have that, we wouldn't be here today. [Aaron] And Jesus wants us to do that. He wants us to be willing to touch our brothers and sisters. Like spiritually, physically, emotionally, that we are part of their lives so close that, and for the purpose of cleaning and washing and purifying. [Jennifer] As you're saying that, cleaning and washing, I'm thinking like, we are all part of one body, okay, and if, let's take my body. My hands don't say I'm not gonna touch your hair, I'm not gonna wash your hair, and so I just go without washing my hair for a year, that would be really nasty. [Aaron] Yeah, if you had off-balance hygiene, you would not be approachable as a woman. [Jennifer] Well so take it in light of the body of Christ and his bride, who he's coming back for who should be spotless and blameless-- [Aaron] Is going to be. [Jennifer] And beautiful, then we should be willing to serve different parts of the body for this reason. [Aaron] And this doesn't mean that we serve the ones that can serve us back and serve the ones that we click well with and serve the ones who are easy to be around. We serve all of them. [Jennifer] So I keep going back to this picture of a body, I know it's funny, but-- [Aaron] That's what the Bible uses! [Jennifer] As you're talking I'm like you're right, so like, my hand can reach back and scratch my back but my back can't really do much for, [Aaron] Your back can't do much for-- [Jennifer] For anything. [Aaron] Yeah, your hands do that. [Jennifer] But it is holding me up, so. [Aaron] There you go. [Jennifer] This is just really interesting. [Aaron] But that's what we do, so are we servants? Are we servants? Christ, he says he didn't claim the royalty and the fame that he could've. Instead, he came as a servant, humble, as a child. [Jennifer] And the Bible tells us to walk as he walked. [Aaron] Yeah, so do we have that heart? Is our heart to lay ourselves down for our friends? [Jennifer] So hopefully those listening are just right along with us going yes, we're gonna serve our friends today. What are some practical ways? What does this look like, what are some ways that they can serve? 'Cause maybe they want to serve but now they're just wondering okay, how do we do that? What should they know? [Aaron] Well, I think of just some simple practical things, helping them. Do they need help with anything? [Jennifer] Well you have to know their needs. [Aaron] You have to know their needs. So shooting a text. Last year I tried getting in the habit of randomly texting friends from our community, just saying hey is there anything you need? Often they say no, but then there's time where they're like actually yeah, like we could use this or we really need a date. We've just been in the thick of having new children and we have not had a date in weeks. [Jennifer] So babysit your friends' kids so they can go have a date. [Aaron] Yeah. Maybe they're just, maybe there's some sickness. Hey, can we come over and just clean your house? Just wanna, we're gonna clean your house. You relax, we're gonna bring you food and I'm gonna scrub your toilets and I'm gonna clean your floorboards, and I'm gonna do your dishes, and just relax and you don't have to worry about it. Those are physical needs, those are just things that all of us would love. Like, if someone just came over and cleaned our house sometimes, I would be so-- [Jennifer] Or yard work. [Aaron] Or just came over and I'm like hey, so-and-so's in the backyard mowing the lawn. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Aaron] That would be so cool. [Jennifer] The other day, we've been trying to consider what we can do for our neighbors and how our neighbors are just right there-- [Aaron] Yeah, our actual neighbors that live nextdoor to us. [Jennifer] Every day, that we see. And we were leaving our house and there was a little bit of snow that piled up on the driveway, and one of our nextdoor neighbors was push brooming the snow out of another neighbor's driveway, she's an elderly woman, and I just thought how cool, he's amazing. Like, way to go. And that inspired Aaron to then go to her nextdoor neighbor and do the same thing for her. [Aaron] Well, you did actually encourage me to do it, which is good 'cause we're a team. And I went over there and it took me 20 minutes to go sweep her, the snow off of her driveway, and it's another elderly lady, and she was actually walking out to go to her mail and it was, her driveway was so slippery. [Jennifer] Oh, really? [Aaron] Yeah, and so I was like hey, can I just take this to the mailbox for you? It was like, right across the street and she was like yeah, absolutely. It was awesome. It was just a little thing. [Jennifer] So when we serve people like this, it brings blessing for those who are on the receiving end, but it also sets an example. It inspires people, it makes others want to do nice things and be thoughtful and serve and be the hands and feet of Christ. So I think that all around, it's so important to be servants. [Aaron] So I just wanna end with one more scripture to close out this topic before we pray for them, and it's the reason why we would want to do any of this stuff for brothers and sisters in Christ. For our married couples that we're friends with, for those that love God and are part of the body. In John 13:35 it says, "By this, all people will know "that you are my disciples "if you have love for one another." And in first John, John says, "Do not love "in words only, but in deed and in truth." So we show our love by the things we do for each other. And that kinda love should be so supernatural that when the world sees how we love each other, they will know that we're disciples of Christ. [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] And in John 17, Jesus says, "The world will know "that God sent me by the love you have for each other." So not only will they know we're disciples of Christ, they'll also know that God sent Jesus. [Jennifer] So we have to be doing this. [Aaron] It's the ministry that we have in the world. [Jennifer] It's the ministry. [Aaron] It's what our whole book's about, actually. [Jennifer] Yes, yeah. Which, a great-- [Aaron] Not to plug it, but I'm plugging it. [Jennifer] No, but since you went there I'm just gonna say, it comes out in June, you guys, and a great way to encourage your married friends is go through this book with them. [Aaron] Ooh, that's a cool idea. [Jennifer] I know they can't do it now, we're gonna be going through a series leading up to the book launch, but I just feel like if couples can be going through this book together and asking each other questions about it and saying what ministry are we doing for God's kingdom? Oh my gosh, I just, my mind is blown by just-- [Aaron] The movement that would start. [Jennifer] Yeah! Yeah, it's incredible. [Aaron] We're excited about it. We thank you for joining us today. I pray that these seven ways to encourage your married friends blessed you, and I pray that it charges you or excites you or it gets you moving in the direction of unity in the body. More and more marriages and Christians in general would just be unified in loving each other in this way. [Jennifer] And don't wait. It's not next week or the week after-- [Aaron] Today. [Jennifer] Start today! Just do it. [Aaron] Alright, so before we close out, we've been committed to praying for you at the end of each episode, and so we're gonna pray for you. [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the friends in our lives. Lord, give us a heart of encouragement for them. Give us words that will affirm them and give strength to their marriage relationship. Show us how we can love our friends better and help them know You more. May we be witnesses in this world by how we love one another and walk with each other in truth and in light. Help us be more vulnerable and open with our friends. Help us to create an environment where our friends feel safe being vulnerable and open with us. May we use what You have given to us to bless them. Inspire our hearts with creative ways we can serve them and confidence that our purpose as friends builds Your kingdom. Please keep the enemy and his evil schemes away from our friends. Do not let his plans of destruction prevail. Protect our friends' marriage and fortify them, O Lord. Give us hearts to see our married friends walk strong and faithful. In Jesus' name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. Alright, so we thank you for joining us this week, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Some stories of joy in our home with practical tips to cultivate a habit of joy in our homes. Support This podcast by purchasing one of our marriage books today: https://shop.marriageaftergod.com READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] Today we're gonna talk about the strength that joy brings to our home. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] So far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. Love. And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. Together. Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you so much for joining us this week on the Marriage After God Podcast. If you've been enjoying this podcast and enjoying the content, would you just scroll to the bottom of the app and leave a star rating review? This just helps other people find the Marriage After God Podcast, and we'd really appreciate that. [Aaron] Also, if you wanna support our podcast, we don't really do ads. We may in the future, but our goal is to not do ads. One of our ways of not using ads to support the podcast is we have written books, and we sell those books. If you're interested in checking out our marriage resources, our prayer books, our devotionals, you can go to shop.marriageaftergod.com, and picking up a book from our store supports us in the production of this podcast. Also, our Marriage After God book, that comes out next year, is available for pre-order, and so if you go to shop.marriageaftergod.com you'll see, in the very top-left corner of the site, a way to pre-order our book. That would just be really awesome. We'd really appreciate that. Let's get into the icebreaker question, which is what is one funny memory from when we were dating? [Jennifer] Hmm. I can't think of a specific one at the moment, but what does come to mind is we spent a lot of time serving in youth ministry. Oh yeah. A lot of time. We were youth leaders. Yeah, and we... [Aaron] At good old Church on the Hill, Norco, California. [Jennifer]We played a lot of games. We laughed a lot. We ate weird things. We'd have contests and challenges, and there were just things that we did for the kids' sake, but we had a lot of fun doing together. That was-- Remember the lock-ins? We would just have overnights. Yup, over-nighters. [Aaron] We would stay up all night, do milk-chugging contests, and... [Jennifer] Gosh, that does not sound fun now. [Aaron] No it doesn't How did we do that? Back then, it was the highlight of our week. I feel like we just came alive in those times. We looked forward to it all year, to do those events. Yeah. Every Wednesday we just came alive during that time, and I fell in love with you, knowing that you had fun participating in that way, being silly... Little junior high kids and high school kids. Yeah, being silly or playing, it wasn't dodge-ball, what was it called? [Aaron] Oh, what... [Jennifer] Murder-ball? [Aaron]Yeah, we called it murder-ball. [Jennifer] We called it murder-ball because it was-- It was just dodge-ball, but we changed the name. ...dodge-ball on steroids, and we had a lot of balls-- There was no line. You just ran around the room, throwing balls at each other. [Jennifer] You guys would throw them so hard. These poor-- I know [Jennifer] ...13-year-old girls would get nailed [Aaron] But they kept playing it. None of them cried. They were crazy. I forgot about that. Murder-ball I loved that. I loved dating you because you were fun, and you're still fun. Yeah. I got a little not fun over the years, but I've learned to change in that area. I'm still learning, but that's kinda what our episode's about, is not just fun, but joy, but how fun cultivates joy and how we can actually cultivate environments of joy in our home. Let's get to the quote from today, and it's from the book For Better or for Kids by Patrick and Ruth Schwenk. Ruth Schwenk's from The Better Mom, and you said you loved this book. Mm-hmm It's about family and the power that God's given us in our homes. [Jennifer] Yeah, and the quote is on page 37, and it says, "While married life with children "can be challenging, we have reason to hope "and to be encouraged. "There is a way forward, a way through, "and a way beyond all of the craziness. "God's Word has not changed. "The promises of his Word still stand. "Is being married with kids messy? "Yes. "Does God have a purpose and plan in the midst of it all? "Of course he does. "And do we enjoy taking part in this crazy, "life-changing, impossible mission of parenting? "Absolutely." That's great 'cause that sums it up pretty good. Parenting's hard. It is crazy. Marriage and parenting is hard. [Jennifer] It is messy. It's all of the above, and yet, God's Word-- But joy. ...still stands. Yeah. And we can enjoy it. And we can enjoy it, which is something that we're learning day-by-day how to do. Mm-hmm We've talked about kids a lot on our show and just the hard things and the fun things, but today we wanna talk about joy, cultivating joy in our home, having fun in our home, and how that joy brings strength to our home and our walk and our mission in life. [Jennifer] Yeah, I think that sometimes we can be so caught up in making sure that everything that we're trying to order or manage is happening, and we become kind of like the officers in the home of making sure everyone's doing what they're supposed to be doing. Even when it comes to our work, we have this rigid schedule of things that we need to get done, and it's kind of on our timeline, and yet we have kids pulling on our elbows, saying, "Dad, come check out this LEGO thing I built," or Olive wanting to dance with you. Where life becomes more mechanical and clunky rather than organic. It's life. It's something that we're experiencing, not controlling. That's kinda what I'm hearing. That's what I'm feeling, is we could get into this mode that life's just one check list after another, one check box after another, the right next step, which is not-- It comes from a good place. [Aaron] Yeah, it's not terrible to think that way at times and to try and walk correctly, 'cause that's the goal, is we're trying to walk well. We're trying to walk as disciples of Christ, living out what the Bible tells us. Then, where's joy? Where's joy fall in all that? Yeah. We actually, I was really encouraged this last week in the woman's Bible study that I got to go to. The whole topic was about soul-filling joy and the things that we can do as moms to fill our hearts up during the week and, like you said, not just have a list that we're checking off, even though that comes from a good place and we want to make sure that we're managing our homes well, but are we doing things that also fill us up and bring a smile to our face? Because that's gonna overflow into our relationship with our kids. It's gonna overflow into our marriages and give that liveliness that God intends for us to have. [Aaron] What you're saying reminds me of the verse in Isaiah 40:31. It says, "But they who wait for the Lord "shall renew their strength. "They shall mount up with wings like eagles. "They shall run and not be weary. "They shall walk and not faint." [Jennifer] Yeah. I've experienced this in my own life, where I do something that brings a lot of joy to my life, and it does renew my strength. There is something physical that happens to you when you experience the joy of the Lord and you experience his strength fill you up and renew you, and I think that's why it's so important to be talking about joy. Have you experienced this? [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause we can get, if we look at our life as just a series of actions taken, a series of checks to be checked off, steps to take, and it's just this mechanical thing that we're moving forward and yeah, maybe we're doing good things, but if we forget why we're doing it and who we're doing it for, it gets very tiresome because essentially, we're doing it in our own strength. We run on fumes. We're told to fill our jars up to overflowing, and we fill that up with the living water, which is Christ, with the Word of God, with prayer, with getting away, quietness. When the Bible talks of prayer, when Jesus says pray, he says go into your closet. He says get away. When I think about getting away, Jesus often got away. It says that he went up by himself into desolate placesand he, early in the morning and late into the evening, so I just-- But he was intentional with his time. Yeah. It wasn't just, "I'm gonna go and be quiet somewhere," which actually, for some people is probably really filling for them, just being quiet somewhere, sitting at a park, people watching or something. Not me. This isn't just about doing something that's fun necessarily. It's a wholistic view of waiting on God because we know that we need him. We need a rest in him, and that gives us strength, and it gives us joy and the power to go on another day, not just go on but to cheerfully and joyfully go on. [Jennifer] I feel like we all need to be reminded that there's gonna, in life, we will all experience hard times. We will all experience those-- [Aaron] Yeah, James makes that very clear Yeah, those times of wrestling, where God's revealed sin in your life that you're repenting of, and you probably feel down for, but you know you're being transformed in-- [Aaron] Or when he's calling out character issues in us, really hard things. Character issues, maybe financial stresses, or maybe the loss of a loved one, there are so many different types of trials that people walk through, and yet I feel like just because we experience hard times doesn't mean we can also experience joy. I think that's the difference between happiness and joy because happiness is a feeling, and it's an emotion that we have the... Capacity to experience. Right, thank you That's a byproduct of joy, I would imagine. Right, joy's deeper. Joy comes from within, but it's also because God is in our hearts, and he's the one that makes it possible to both enjoy, he's the one that makes it possible to experience joy while in the midst of hardship, at the exact same time. Maybe there isn't any hardship in your life right now, and you, like you said earlier, are just kind of going through the motions and being kind of mechanical-- I actually feel like sometimes when we're going through good seasons, or easy seasons I should say, often, we find ourselves being more discontent. It's easier to forget to walk in joy or something. I've experienced that with us. That's interesting. I realize, I'm like, "Well, there's nothing really hard "going on in our life. "Why are we feeling like this right now?" [Jennifer] In today's episode, we really just wanna inspire you guys to consider joy. Maybe it's something that you haven't thought of, or maybe it's something that you've already been thinking of, and we can just come in as part of that support to say, "Yes, this is the right way. "This is what we should be thinking about. "This is what we should be doing" because a marriage after God has joy. [Aaron] When you walk in the Spirit, what's one of the fruits of the Spirit? Joy. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and so, when we walk in the Spirit, fruit of that will be joy in our life. I was just thinking about the difference between happiness and joy. I feel like happiness is an earthly experience that comes out of the eternal understanding of joy. Joy is an eternal concept. It comes from hope, hopes of things that are things that are unseen. It's something that goes beyond the current experience because you can have joy even in really hard things because it's based on something eternal, where happiness is based on something temporary. That's good. Something that we experience just right now for this moment. Our goal should never be just seeking happiness. That's called hedonism, just looking for happiness. Our goal should be enjoying the fruit of the Spirit, which one of them is joy. [Jennifer] What I was gonna say was that it benefits our children so much. I was just thinking about how you could just, I feel like kids are so expressive. Their little bodies can reveal so much about what they're feeling, that joy is just one of those things that you can see in kids. It's so evident. Yeah, I wonder how many of our listeners grew up in joyless homes, grew up in homes that were full of strife, anxiety, fear, and how much joy would've benefited the home. They're probably thinking right now, "Man, "I wish my family was joyful. "I wish when I grew up I experienced joy." [Jennifer] If that's you listening right now, I just wanna tell you that you don't have to live according to the past and feel like you're stuck. You can change. [Aaron] Today, we talked about this last episode, you can change today [Jennifer] What a benefit it would be, what a testimony it would be to the power of God in your life. [Aaron] In our home, like I said, over the years, I kind of, there was a season of my life that, and it was probably because of sin I was walking. It was probably 'cause of discontentment issues that we had, character flaws, things that God was growing in us, but I feel like I had a hard time having fun. I had a hard time being joyful. I loved God, and there was times I was joyful, but it wasn't a default state for me. I was pretty Scrooge-y. Is that the word? Not just because Christmas is coming, but just I think people called me Scrooge-y just 'cause I was not very joyful. I don't want that for my family. What are some ways that we over the years have been cultivating joy in our home and that our listeners can take home and try? [Jennifer] We should just tag-team this and kind of go down the list of things, but-- This isn't the definitive list. I actually tried coming up with as many as I could, but I'm sure there's other things that we might think of as we talk about these. [Jennifer] Probably. We do have, we're in a season of young kids, and so a lot of what you probably will hear probably sounds, I don't know... Silly? Silly, 'cause it is. They are silly [Jennifer] They are silly, but I think the important thing to note here is that these are just ways that we have tried to be intentional in cultivating a space in our home, in our lifestyle, that cultivates joy. One of those things is fort building. I actually did that this morning with the kids. [Aaron] The kids love it. We have a couch that's perfect for fort building. The pillows are huge. They're sturdy, so they make really good roofs and walls. I only believe in building big forts. I don't know why people build small forts. It's not worth it to me. I came home the other day-- Go big or go home [Aaron] I came home the other day, and the entire living room was a fort. [Jennifer]You have to use every chair, every blanket-- All the chairs ...every pillow... The couches were on their sides, the pillows-- Maximize the-- [Aaron] ...were stacked up high, and you guys were watching a movie inside We were watching a movie inside, yeah. You're like, "We're in our movie theater. "You wanna come in?" I'm like, "Uh, I don't know if I'll fit," but it was pretty huge, so I probably would've. It was pretty amazing. I think I actually storied it on Instagram 'cause it was-- Probably. [Aaron] I was really impressed with that fort building. Thanks. That's one thing that we do. The kids love it, and it's fun because they're still pretty young. They could build one themselves, but they never make them as good as we make them. [Jennifer] A little tip for fort building, if you get a colorful quilt or one of those knitted blankets that are made-- Have holes in them. [Jennifer] Yeah, they're just really fun for the light to come through, and-- [Aaron] It looks like stained glass windows. It does. I always say, "Look at the stained glass windows." [Jennifer] You need to share the one minute of crazy 'cause this is more new. This is a newer thing. But it works. It's our one minute of crazy, and we've been doing it, we don't do it every night, of course, but when I feel like my kids just got extra jitters in them-- Or extra screams. [Aaron] ...what I'll do is I'll say, "Okay guys, I want everyone to," I'll be a little stern about it, "I want everyone to stand right here in a line." They stand there, they're like, "Okay, what's gonna happen?" Then I'll turn the music on our jam box really loud, and I'll say, "All right, I want you guys "to get as crazy as possible for one minute." Then the whole time, I'm telling them to get louder and louder and louder, and they're screaming, and they get actually tired. When they're done, they're like, "Why'd you have us do that?" I'm was like, "Wasn't that fun?" The first time you had them do it, it took them about 15 seconds to, is Dad joking, or-- Yeah, they didn't know. [Jennifer] They're looking at each other, like, "Should we be screaming?" [Aaron] That's probably because of my history of not being very fun. It was awesome. Yeah, but it did take them a few seconds to actually, they're like, 'Wait a minute, are we gonna get in trouble?" [Jennifer] It's a great thing to do, not right before bed, but leading up to bedtime. [Aaron] I liked it right before bed because I feel like they weren't quite ready for bed, and this pushed them over the edge 'cause they were tired, and they also felt like they got all of it out of them. Sometimes it's hard to calm them down afterwards, but that's okay [Jennifer] I wanna share another one. This comes from my childhood. My mom and stepdad would always do this. They still do it. It's so funny. If someone comes home and walks through the door, or even out from the bathroom or bedroom-- Is this where it came from? Yeah. Oh. [Jennifer] Whoever notices it goes, "Quick, pretend you're asleep" Wherever they're sitting. Wherever you're at, just kinda drop your head, close your eyes, and try as hard as you can not to smile. [Aaron] Wyatt is so bad at it. Wyatt's our two-year-old. He just turned two. But he still tries, and it's so cute. He'll be in his little white chair, and I'll walk in, and everyone's got their heads tilted to the side with their eyes shut-- [Jennifer] Sometimes we'll be at the kitchen table, and we'll be eating breakfast when Aaron comes home, and I'm like, "Quick, pretend you're asleep," and everyone just kind of limps their head to the side. But then, I look over, and Wyatt, he has his head back-- He's just looking at you. He has his head back, and his eyes half shut, and he's smiling 'cause he doesn't get it, but he's trying. I'm like, "Are you guys sleeping?" And Wyatt's smiling at me the whole time. [Jennifer] This is one of those things, I love it 'cause it's from my childhood, so I love that my kids have kind of owned it. Olive is usually the first one now to say it. Oh yeah. "Pretend you're sleeping." [Aaron] "Quick, we're sleeping," and then everyone, she'll put her head down even if no one notices. She gets mad if you don't, no she gets mad if you don't do it. [Aaron] She does it so fast, no one notices, and she is the only one pretending to sleep. It's really funny 'cause then, let's say Dad walks through the door, "Oh no, everyone fell asleep," or we get up really fast and go, "Boo!" It's just fun. Yeah, on the same note of the spontaneous sleeping, the narcolepsy game, we'll often do, I'll get home early after the gym or something, and it'll be super quite in the house, and I think everyone's asleep. I'm tippy-toeing, and I get in the bedroom, and every-- There's just a mountain under the bed. Yeah, and every single person in my family is under the covers in my bed. They're all hiding from me and What's funny, even once the blanket goes over our heads-- I almost jumped on Elliot the other day 'cause I didn't know he was in the bed. Even Truett will be laying there, and the moment the blanket goes over his head, he kinda gets all wide-eyed and smiley-- Like, "What's happening?" Yeah, what's happening. Those are just fun ways to bring instantaneous giggles. And they're short things, they're easy things, and it's something that, they become part of our family, these little things. Our kids look forward to it. They're the ones that instigate all of these things now. Another little tip to help cultivate joy in the home is to not worry about messes so much. That doesn't mean that we don't clean up and have organization and self control, which is something Jennifer and I are trying to get better at, being organized and clean in our house, but if we're always trying to be tidy, it really doesn't leave any room for fun. [Jennifer] We're gonna miss those opportunities where, maybe one of the kids is playing with LEGOs and would love some help, or wants to just get creative with you-- [Aaron] Or throwing pillows around the house for a little bit, or having blankets on, like forts. You can't have it both ways. [Jennifer] We built a fort this morning, like I said, and it's middle of the day right now, it's nap time, and-- And it's still messy out there It's all messed up. It's all messed up. It's one of those things where it's like, "Well, maybe they'll build another one later," and that has to be okay. [Aaron] Something I've realized is that if I'm always telling the kids to clean up, they're actually not gonna like doing some of those fun things. Now, there's a time for everything, so let our kids know that there's a time to clean up. After we've had a full amount of fun or something, they understand that, "Okay, now let's straighten up "'cause we're gonna go on to the next thing," but just kind of not having the anxieties and the overwhelmedness of those little messes, that it's gotta be okay. It's just a good little tip to have a little bit more freedom and lightheartedness in the home. [Jennifer] Good word. Another one is dance parties. We like to turn the music up really loud and just go for it. You guys don't know this about me, but-- Our kids are the best dancers I was gonna say I'm actually probably one of the most terrible dancers, but it doesn't hold me back. I just go for it, and somehow, my kids have picked up on this, and they intend to dance crazy, silly, awkward, and that just makes us laugh even more. If you'd like to see Jennifer dance, leave us a review and tell us that you'd like to see her dance, and I'll post a video of her on our Instagram. Oh my goodness, don't even. Yeah, I'm gonna put some music to it, and you're gonna be dancing 'cause they gotta see. They gotta see the gloriousness that is your dance skills. [Jennifer] Oh, man. I gotta think about that. A lot of these other ones are very physical things, like tickling, spontaneous wrestling matches with Dad. [Aaron] Usually spurred on by my son, who hides, crouching, ready to attack, and the moment I come home, he just jumps out of nowhere onto me with a sword in his hand, but letting those things happen, I think it does huge things for our children, to know that they have the freedom to, of course, not hurt us, which happens sometimes, but just, that they have the freedom to jump on us and to climb on us and to crawl on us. This morning, Olive was, I was talking to you, and she was grabbing my legs and going in and out of my legs, and I didn't notice she was doing it for a while. Like a cat [Aaron] Then I finally was like, "Olive, what are you doing?" 'Cause I felt like I was falling over, and she's like, "I'm just playing with your legs," and she's going in and out and sitting on them and pushing me over, and I for a moment wanted to be bothered by it. Then I thought to myself, "Why do I care "that she's doing that to me right now? "It's really cute." It's something that I still have to consistently work on and recognize in me 'cause I wanna sometimes get bothered by those kinds of things, but letting it happen because I want my kids to know that they can touch me. They can crawl on me. They can hang on me. They can love me. I was actually just really inspired by someone I follow on Instagram. Her name is Joy, and she posted a picture of her two oldest kids. They're in their teens, and her little story caption was just to encourage other moms with little ones to listen to your kids when they come to tell you about what they created with LEGOs or what they're drawing or imaginary world or whatever it is-- Taking joy in their creations, their things. She said because it goes by so fast, and we know we all hear this, but she goes, "You're gonna want to hear from them "and their hard things that they're walking through "when they're older, and if you keep pushing them away "or keep saying, 'No, I don't have time for that' now, "you're gonna miss that opportunity." You wouldn't have built that trust and open lines of communication, even at a very, very young age. Hopefully that encourages someone else. [Aaron] It encourages me, that I need to be listening more and paying attention to my kids more. Again, there's always a balance. Our kids can't absorb every-- Everything. [Aaron] ...everything from us. When we are intentional with it, it'll make the times that we can't okay 'cause they'll know that our hearts are with them. [Jennifer] Right. I'd really love to talk a little bit about just experiencing joy in marriage between a husband and a wife, but before we get there, there's one more thing that, when I was thinking about this list, that really stood out to me, and it's ways that we can kind of team up together to bring joy to our kids 'cause all the things that we've kinda listed we could do without the other. Right. But this next one's pretty interesting. This is your idea, or mine, I can't remember, but we were standing in the kitchen talking, and the kids were in the school room, and I told you, I said, "Aaron, call them out." I had handfuls of marshmallows in my hand, and I-- We both did, yeah. I was one one side-- I gave you the bag, ...of the hallway-- and you took the bag from me, took a handful out, and we hid on either side of the walls, so that when we came through the hallway, we were gonna just launch all these marshmallows at them. I was like, "Elliot, "Olive, Wyatt, come here." Plus, it's also a good lesson in obedience, are they coming the first time they're being called? You're killing two birds with one stone. [Aaron] Then they pitter-patter down the hallway, and we're hiding on the floor so they don't see us, and they walk right past us. Then we just bombard them with marshmallows. It actually scared them, and they looked at us like-- They just stood there. They looked at us like, "How could you do that?" [Jennifer] They just stood there, and Olive had this furrowed brow, and she was ready to just reprimand us, and then-- Then they looked on the ground, they're like, "Are those marshmallows?" "Can we have those?" "Can we have those?" Then they just start squirming. [Aaron] Luckily, marshmallows don't hurt. If you're gonna do that game, throw things that don't hurt at your kids. Otherwise, that would not be very fun. [Jennifer] We have other friends that intentionally do Nerf wars together. Oh yeah. We actually thought about one time buying a bunch of a Nerf stuff, and then-- Getting that family that does that Yeah, not letting them know, and then when we go over for dinner, just attack them We should still do that. We should still do, well, they might listen to this episode now. Now, I have to do it before we launch this episode. [Jennifer] That's just one way that you can team up together to cultivate joy in the home. We wanna hear your guys' ideas too, so please share them. [Aaron] Yeah, and all of these things that you can do, like little things just compounding on top of each other, it shows your family, especially for the husbands out there who might struggle the way I do to be joyful or have this fun-loving spirit or a lighthearted spirit, it shows your children, it shows your wife that you enjoy them, that you like being around them, that they're not just in the way of you, that you enjoy having crazy time with them, having fun time with them. [Jennifer] Yeah, that you wanna hear them laugh, that you wanna participate in their life. We touched on how to cultivate joy in the family, especially with small kids, but Aaron, how would you say we cultivate joy within the marriage and why that's important? [Aaron] Again, walking with the right perspective, first of all, that we have a mission in this world, that God loves us, that we're saved, these big things that God's done for us, easily just allows us to have joy even in the midst of hard things, even when maybe you're not joyful, I can still walk in that stuff, so when we're walking in that together, that knowledge and that truth, there's naturally a joy that exists. On the practical side, I think there's probably a ton of things that we do that cultivate joy, probably things that we could add to our lives. One of them is we have our own set of inside jokes that no one knows about. When you're with-- I'm not gonna describe what they are because they're ours but we have our own little inside jokes, and that's something that we do together, and it's funny for us. It's fun for us. Those build over time, so if you're only one or two years married, just know that those come over time. Maybe you already have some, but those are a really fun way to just, when you're out and about or at church, or-- At any time, really At any time, you can make these jokes, and only they get it. It's pretty fun. Yeah, it's something unique to us. Yeah, something you said about having joy, one of the importance of that is even amidst walking through hard stuff, and I feel like when I look at our marriage, experiencing joy with you was possible even in those first few years, which were our hardest years of marriage, and that was one of the things that carried us through those hard years, was finding ways to cultivate joy in our relationship, exploring new places together, trying to get each other to laugh. [Aaron] Yeah, I realize when we weren't lovers, in those early years, we were friends still, not all the time, but we had a friendship. We had things that we can connect with still and cultivate. God wanted more from us, but in those times, I remember when we were in Malawi, Africa, and it's been hard, and we walked off and we sat on a pier over the lake. Remember that? Mm-hmm, there's a gazebo at the end. [Aaron] Yeah, and we were just sitting there, talking, looking at the fish, talking about being married, talking about if we'd ever come back. [Jennifer] Yeah, we talked about our future. [Aaron] Yeah we talked about our future. Those little things on our list up there, we didn't talk about it, but adventures, that's another way we cultivate joy in our family and in our marriage, is we take adventures, even when we're not with the kids. Me and you like to just go for a drive around neighborhoods we've never been in before, going up the mountain just to drive up the mountain. There's things that we do that give us opportunities to just talk. I think those are situations that cultivate joy in us because it's just us together. It's just us spending time with each other, talking, hearing each other. [Jennifer] Yeah, I think another practical way to do this is, again, physical touch, just like when we were talking about with the kids, but tickling each other, hugging each other. Massages. Massages. Dancing. That's joyful for me. [Jennifer] I'm giving Aaron the eyes 'cause that sounded creepy, but just being physical, being willing to tickle each other and-- And play with each other, yeah. And play, yeah. I like the-- We're a lot more playful with each other these days than we used to be. [Jennifer] Yeah, I like the keep away game, where you snag something, like their phone works really well for this, and then you have to try and get it. Yeah, if you wanna know how addicted someone is to their phone, just snag it out of their hands and see how they respond. Wait, that's joyful? I just think about the lightness. We've had seasons where it just feels like we're walking on eggshells with each other, and that's not fun, where you're tippy-toeing around your spouse, and you're just wondering if the next thing you do is gonna trigger them. That's the opposite of joy. Yeah. [Aaron] That is not joyful. That is tedious and cumbersome. If your spouse can feel light around you and free around you. And feel loved. [Aaron] And cherished around you and loved around you, how much strength there is in that, and power there is in that, and that's what I want because again, we're always talking about being a marriage after God. There's a reason we're together. It's for the ministry God has for us, and if you're constantly feeling like you have to be so aware of every move you make around me because you're just wondering if you're gonna trigger me, there's no way you can minister for Christ in that kind of situation. There's no way we as a family can show the world the love we have for each other, which is what we're called to do, right? Mm-hmm [Aaron] Now, that's not just talking about in marriage. That's talking about in the church as a whole, but joy remedies that. It cultivates an environment that allows for true and powerful and authoritative ministry to happen. [Jennifer] Joy is one of those testimonies of the power of God in your life, and I know I said that earlier, but it's so true, that when the world looks at you, when the world looks at a marriage after God and they see joy, they're probably thinking, "Well, I want "what they have." Yeah, "How do I get "some of that?" [Jennifer] "What is that?" Then you get to tell them, "It's because of Jesus in my life. "It's because God has transformed us. "It's because God gives us hope." [Aaron] Yup. I hope those listening get encouraged by this, that, of course, we're still learning, but if they put their hearts in the right place, they put it in the hands of Christ and allow him to transform them and say, "Lord, I want more joy. "I want more of your joy, "and I want my family to experience joy," it all goes back to walking in the Spirit and saying, "Lord, help me walk in the Spirit today. "I want my kids to feel the overflow of joy in my life. "I want my wife, I want my husband, "to feel that, to experience that joy, "to eat the good fruit coming out of me, "and then in our marriage, I want people, our children, "outsiders to eat the good fruit of our marriage," and at the end of the day, that joy becomes our strength. I just wanna read that scripture in Nehemiah chapter 8. Nehemiah had just finished building the wall, the walls around the city, and Ezra the priest got up on a platform, and he read the entire book of the law out loud, from day till night, to all of the congregation of the people. Nehemiah says this to the people after all of this, it says, "Then he said to them," in chapter 8, verse 10: "'Go your way. "'Eat the fat and drink the sweet wine "'and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, "'for this day is holy to our Lord. "'And do not be grieved, for the joy "'of the Lord is your strength.'" This people, they were scattered, they were dispersed, the city was destroyed. Nehemiah came, rebuilt the city and was about to, and he had all the people coming back to the city to rebuild their own homes, to rebuild this city with a people that God promised it would be their city, it would be their home, and he just reminds them, he says, "The joy of the Lord is your strength." The strength in our home, the strength in our lives is the Lord. The strength in our marriage. The strength in our marriage, the strength in our ministry, and that strength comes from the joy that God gives us, from the hope we have in Christ, from the power and the authority of the Word of God, and that joy is the thing that just allows us to keep going, keeping walking. Instead of it being mechanical, instead of it being a checklist, it's now a life-giving thing we do. I think that's awesome. Yeah, I love that. My grandma Betty, she is 91 and just right there at the end of her life, and my dad posted a quote, something that she always said, which was, "Make someone laugh every day, "and life will be full." When I think about her life, I think about it being really full. Yeah, every time we're around her, she's big ol' smile, laughing, making jokes. Huge smile. Just for a little description, she's probably only five foot, maybe five-foot-one with heels on, and she wore colorful dresses. She had bright red hair and always wore blue eyeshadow, and when I think of her, I think of fun. I remember being a little girl, maybe four years old, I would go over to her house when my dad brought us over there to visit, and about 10 minutes before we would leave, she would say, "Jenn, come with me." She'd take me to her vanity and put perfume on me and eyeshadow and blush and did the whole thing-- Make you feel so pretty. ...make me feel like a princess, and the whole time just talking to me, and encouraging me, and loving on me, and I can't imagine what I looked like to everyone walking out as a little four-year-old with this makeup on, if she even really put make up on me. Remember, she liked to have fun I know. When I think about that little girl, when I think about myself, if I stood in front of her today, I would think there was no question about the joy that I had in my heart from just that experience with her, those five minutes, or 10 minutes, or however long it was, of sitting in her chair and listening to her voice and being there with me. I just love that, and I want, at the end of my life, to look back and think, "That was a full life." [Aaron] Yeah, and I want people to look back on my life, or our life, and say, "Wow, they were joyful," right? Mm-hmm [Aaron] I don't want them to think, "Man, they were bitter and frustrated all the time "and annoyed." I want them to say, "They were joyful." Joy's a powerful thing. What's funny is all of the fruit of the Spirit is powerful. It's why-- We need it [Aaron] We need the Spirit, is because it produces such good things in us. I just pray that this encourages the listeners today that they would pursue joy, that they would walk in the Spirit, and that they would cultivate an environment in their home that their kids just know what joy is. It doesn't mean we're not gonna have hard times, but it does mean that we can have pure, eternal joy, something that's founded in something in eternity, not in something that is temporary. [Jennifer] I love that. Speaking of prayer, I think that now is a perfect time to go into our prayer for today's episode. We'd love to invite you guys to pray along with us. [Aaron] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of joy. We pray that we would be intentional to cultivate joy in our marriages and in our families. Holy Spirit, please inspire us with creative ways to create space in our lives to laugh, to play, to enjoy precious moments with those we love most. Remind use every day of the power of joy and how we can be vessels of your joy, so that it is dispersed throughout the world. May our joy be a testimony to others of your goodness and your strength in our lives. May it be the reason people ask us why we are so different from the rest of the world. May our joy draw our spouse, our children, and others close to you as we experience the gift of joy. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. [Aaron] We just thank you for joining us this week. We pray that you have joy this week. We pray that you would walk in the Spirit, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

The Bible tells us that the crucible is meant to refine, and God will allow us to go through things in our lives that will act as crucibles to bring us to a place where the dross of our character can come to the surface. Consider supporting this podcast by buying one of our marriage books today. https://shop.marriageaftergod.com READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna talk about asking God to search our hearts. ♪ Whoo ♪ ♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life-- [Aaron] Love-- [Jennifer] And power-- [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God-- [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. ♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ [Aaron] Welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. [Jennifer] The most amazing podcast you've ever been listening to. [Aaron] Yeah, if you're married for sure. Actually, I think we have people that are not married listening to us. [Jennifer] Hey, that's good. Yeah. It's awesome. [Aaron] Which is awesome. As usual, we wanna invite you to leave us a quick review. A star rating is the easiest way to do it. All you have to do is scroll to the bottom of the podcast app and hit the star. But if you have a little bit of extra time, you can leave us a text review also, and that helps lots of people see the episodes, see the podcast, because it comes up in the rankings the more reviews they have. So that'd be awesome if you can do that. If you've been blessed by the show, we just invite you to do that. [Jennifer] And thank you to everyone who has already left a review and star rating. We really appreciate that. [Aaron] Yeah, there's tons of 'em. We have over 600 star ratings, and like 70 or 80 text reviews, which is amazing. [Jennifer] And so encouraging to us. [Aaron] Yeah, I go through and I read 'em, and I send 'em. I'll text pictures of 'em to my wife so she could see what they say. They're really encouraging. So we wanted to also invite you to check out our online store, shop.marriageaftergod.com, where my wife and I have written a 30-day devotional bundle for husbands and wives. We've also written a prayer book bundle for husbands and wives. And it's also where we're gonna be launching our new book next year, Marriage After God, which this podcast was started because of, and that comes out next year. So if you wanna support our podcast, if you love the content, just go to shop.marriageaftergod.com. [Jennifer] For those listening who, like you said, maybe aren't married yet, we also have a book bundle for them. Oh, yeah. And it's prayers for your future husband and wife, so you can check that out as well. [Aaron] Thank you for that reminder. So that's how we get support for our podcast. If you love it, if you wanna support the podcast and the content, check out our store, and pick up one of our books. That'd be awesome. So before we get into the topic, I'd love to do an icebreaker. And this is something we're gonna try doing. It's a new part of our show. And so it actually reminds me of when we used to lead a marriage table back at our old church, babe. Do you remember how we do icebreakers in the beginning of all of the sessions? [Jennifer] Yeah, it was super fun. I think it was just a way for people to get to know each other on a real quick, kind of surface-level basis. And so I think it'll be fun. I think it'll give our listeners just a little bit more insight into us. [Aaron] Yeah, and sometimes it'll be fun. There might be like a little game or something. I don't know yet. [Aaron] So here's the icebreaker. What is your favorite candy? [Jennifer] Mm, that's a good one. I have lots of favorite candies. I tend to lean more towards the chocolate, which when I think of candy, I think of hard, sour tart things. So I don't know how other people would answer this, but I would just say like a good Snickers bar, good chocolate bar. [Aaron] Do you like the nougaty center? What's in a Snickers bar, peanuts? I don't even know. Yeah, there's like caramel, nuts, the nugget, all of it. [Aaron] Mm. [Jennifer] Or is it nigget? I don't know. Nigget? [Jennifer] I don't know what it's called. [Aaron] I think it's nougat. Noo-jit. Okay, so now you ask me an icebreaker question. [Jennifer] All right, so you're drinking a cup of coffee right now. Yes. What do you like in your coffee? How do you take it? Let everyone know. [Aaron] Black, nothing. I don't put anything in my coffee. ♪ Boring ♪ Just kidding. I like it that way. Just espresso and water. Hot water, of course. So that's... I don't know if anyone knew that about me. I just like black coffee. Yeah, it is boring. I don't put any sugar, no cream. I don't even like eggnog in my coffee even though I love eggnog. [Jennifer] I've never even heard of someone putting eggnog in coffee. Why would you even say that? [Aaron] Like an eggnog latte. [Jennifer] Oh. I'm not really a coffee drinker, so I don't know what's available. I don't know what's out there. [Aaron] Yeah. It's the season for eggnog, that's why I brought it up. I'd rather just have a cup of eggnog with a cup of coffee next to it. Okay, so icebreaker done. But another thing we're gonna add toour podcast is I'm reading a book right now, and I'm gonna read a quote from it. And so I think what we're gonna try and do is just take little quotes as we're reading through books and materials that we are checking out and going through. And the one I'm currently reading is Letters to the Church by Francis Chan. And the quote is on page 78. And it's this. Scripture is clear. There is a real connection between our unity and the believability of our message. If we are serious about winning the lost, we must be serious about pursuing unity. And I just love that, because we've been talking a lot about unity in our church lately. A theme in our life lately over the last few years has been unity, just learning to fall in love with the body of Christ and fall in love with other believers in the way the Bible has called us to. So that just really spoke to me last night when I read it. [Jennifer] So I love that quote, and I think it's pertinent to what we're gonna be talking about today, specifically just introducing what we wanna talk about today 'cause it kind of started out with a little messiness in a relationship that contributed to what we're gonna share today. Do you wanna-- Yeah. Share a little bit more about that? So in our, in our small home church, we have a handful of families. And when you walk so closely with people, there's just going to be some messiness sometimes. There's gonna be stickiness. There's gonna be hard things. It's why the Bible talks a lot about our relationships with each other. The majority of the Bible is not just our relationship with God, but how he desires us to walk with one another. [Jennifer] Right, which I really appreciate that about the Bible. I think that it gives us all the tools, and encouragement, and guidance on navigating the messy parts of relationships. [Aaron] Yeah, and-- [Jennifer] For the purpose of unity, which is what you just shared on. [Aaron] Exactly. And we're not gonna talk about the specific situation. We're not gonna talk about the specific people. [Jennifer] Well, here's the thing, is everybody listening right now can relate to this. No matter what relationship that you're a part of, there's gonna be messiness. [Aaron] So what all of our listeners can do is as they hear what we're talking about, they can superimpose their own experiences to fill in the blank, because we don't need to give those details. Because what we wanna talk about is what happened-- [Jennifer] After. [Aaron] Because-- Yeah. Of that situation. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] So maybe you can give a little bit of synopsis of what happened over the last few days, and maybe what led up to this. And we can talk about our conversation we had. [Jennifer] Okay, so there was this relational messiness that was going on. And you were sharing with me late Saturday night that on your way home God had used that situation to prompt your own heart to kinda confront some things. [Aaron] Yeah. I took what was going on, and in the midst of what was going on immediately began to internalize and look inward and say, okay, who am I in this scenario? Who am I at home? And I felt like God started just really pointing out in me things, and calling out in me things, which is I believe is what we should be doing. Whenever we confront hard things, whenever we walk in trials with our brothers and sisters, I feel like the fleshly response is to look outward and say, oh, look at this, look who's at fault. This happened, they did this. But the spiritual response should be to look internally, and say, who am I? [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] What does God wanna do in me? How does God wanna use this situation to change me, transform me, make me more like him? [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. Yeah, so we were sitting on the couch that night after the kids went to bed, and you started sharing this with me, kinda like as if this situation pulled up a mirror to your own life. And what was the specific thing that God revealed to you? [Aaron] He revealed to me a few things. He revealed to me, specifically, my harshness at times with my children. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] Although I've been growing a lot, and we're trying really hard to disciple our children well, and be consistent with them, and discipline them well, and train them well, and raise them well, and love them well, I have some areas of my heart and areas of my character that need to be changed. And he used this hard situation in other relationships in our fellowship to show me this. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. So what you didn't know going into this conversation with me was that I had also been wrestling with some similar thoughts just about the way that I sometimes react or respond to the kids. And earlier that day was just a struggle for me. And I just was short with the kids, a little negative in my responses toward them, and I felt really bad about that. And we sat there for about an hour and 1/2 weeping over these types of responses, because our kids don't deserve that. Our kids don't deserve us to be short-tempered, or quick in our responses, or what are some of the other things? [Aaron] Harsh stares, the way we look at them. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] The words we choose to use. The way we word our messages to them. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. And it's not that we're like this all the time, but there are specific situations or circumstances that happen that we respond to in this way. Fleshly, yeah. Fleshly. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. [Aaron] And what's funny about this in how God works is our conversation on the couch that night started out as a debrief of what we've been dealing with outside of this conversation. This wasn't even a conversation we were having. And then it just mutated very quickly into a very internally focused, intrinsically-focused conversation about our own, we should call it sin. Mm-hmm, yeah. 'Cause that's what it is. Us not walking rightly, and us walking in the flesh is sin. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] The first thing I think of is the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience. Us not being peaceful with our children, us not being patient with our children, us not being kind or gentle, it's sin. 'Cause right before that statement about the fruits of the Spirit is the fruit of the flesh. Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And although we were going through something very hard, and what I think happened is we were already spiritually sensitive because of the things we were going through in the other relationships. [Jennifer] Well, and we were kind of talking, the conversation started out with the different perspectives of that situation and kind of going to God and saying, what's going on, what's happening, and what needs to happen for reconciliation or unity within the body, within these other relationships? And then, like you said, it kind of just internalized. And I feel like what happened sitting on the couch with you that night is it was almost like God had a bucket going down into a well and he was drawing it up. And it was like the bucket was pouring over. That's a good illustration, yeah. [Jennifer] And I felt like he was pulling it out of me, all these things that I wasn't really struggling with in that moment until all of sudden, the light shined on my heart. [Aaron] I think I said one phrase and it just triggered this whole conversation, and softening of our hearts, and a revealing of our sin, and a conversation that led us to just dive in of who we are, what we do, are these things gonna remain, or are we gonna change them and remove them? [Jennifer] Well, I remember, too, a few days before this was happening, I remember driving down the street, and I had the same conviction about my role and relationship with my kids. And I brushed it off with the justification of, well, I'm not as bad as some people, or I don't do it that often. And I had these justifications that made me just kind of push it aside. And we should never push aside convictions like that. And I was realizing that-- But it's so easy to. [Jennifer] I know. -Sometimes. I know, it really is. [Aaron] 'Cause confronting those things makes us feel ugly. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And that's not fun. [Jennifer] Yeah, so all a sudden, my flesh goes, well, you're not that terrible, you know? Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] When really, the things that I was doing, I should definitely stop and recognize. And so, man, that was a good conversation sitting with you on the couch that night. [Aaron] It was a necessary one. And so why are we bringing this up to our audience? Are we talking about parenting right now? No. [Aaron] No. [Jennifer] No, it actually has nothing to do with parenting. [Aaron] No. In our case, it had to do with parenting. It also had to do with we had some conversations about our marital relationship. [Jennifer] Yup, and how we treat each other in certain circumstances. Yeah, the words we use. Are we walking in the roles God's called us to? Or are we going outside those? Are we fighting against them? Because we've grown so much in those areas, but at the same time, we can't forget that we aren't perfect yet. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] That God's still sanctifying us, and he's changing us, and he does it in specific ways. And so I just wanted to bring up a scripture that illustrates just really well. It's Proverbs 17:3, and it says the crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts. And Proverbs uses this illustration several times. And a crucible is a big, ole hot pot that you would throw metal into, and it melts it down. And you melt it, and melt it, and melt it, especially with precious metals like silver and gold. And what happens is the more you heat it up, the more you boil it, the dross, the impurities, float to the top, and then you can scrape it off the top. And then you keep heating it, and then more impurities come up to the top, and you scrape it. That's what a crucible on a furnace is for, for gold and silver. And I believe God was using this situation in our church with some of these relationship that we were having that we were navigating issues with as a crucible for our hearts. It was a spiritually-sensitive situation. We're being required to be in the spirit, and being praying and asking for the Lord's will, and seeking after his answer for what's going on. Which then brought to the surface in our hearts some thingsthat he wanted to scrape away from us. [Jennifer] Yeah. That's definitely what it felt like sitting on the couch with you that night. I just felt like he was-- It was kinda painful. Like drawing it up, yeah. But it was good. [Aaron] Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] And I remember at the end of it, you said, "Well, we need to change." And then I cried some more, and said, "It's so hard, I don't know how to." And you're like-- Yeah, you're like, "What do I do? "I feel like I wanna change, "and what?" And you weren't saying just you. It's us. Us. Yeah. [Aaron] But you're like, "I feel like I want to, "but I don't know how to." [Jennifer] And you said, "We just do. "God's already given us the Holy Spirit that empowers us, "and we just need to." [Aaron] Yeah. And for those that are listening, I'm sure they can think, remember we talked about the filling in the blanks? They can think of a situation or something in their life where they're like, I just don't know how to change. Like what do I do? And what's amazing is, and it sounds too easy, and I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty and the struggle that our spirit and flesh have with each other at times, but we can just change because we are empowered by the Holy Spirit. Do you remember the illustration I gave Eliott this morning during Bible time? We were talking about the Holy Spirit empowering us, and I used his-- [Jennifer] Oh, yeah, Tony Stark. Yeah. [Jennifer] Our son's obsessed a little bit with Iron Man. He thinks he's the coolest guy ever. [Aaron] Yeah, so I was reading in Galatians, and it was talking about being empowered. And I told Eliott, I said, "Eliott, do you think Tony Stark "would be powerful without his suit?" And he's like, "Well, no, he's just a man." And I said, "Well, but his suit gives him power. "He can fly, and shoot blasters." And I was giving all these little illustrations. And I said, "That's what the Holy Spirit is." [Jennifer] You could see kind of a light bulb go on in his head like, oh, yeah. [Aaron] I said, "Without the Holy Spirit, "we can't do anything." Which the Bible tells us, we can do nothing to please God without the Spirit of God. We can't do anything apart from the Spirit. But with the Spirit of God, we can do everything. Everything that God wills for our lives, we could actually accomplish through the power of the Holy Spirit. And yeah, his eyes did light up, because I equated the Holy Spirit to Iron Man's suit. It's much more powerful than Iron Man's suit. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] We have the living God inside of us. We have the power that resurrected Christ from the dead in us. Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And so on the couch, I was like, "I'm not trying to be harsh, "but I think we just have to change today. "We cannot continue in what we were walking in. "We cannot continue to give ourselves excuses. "We cannot continue operating the way we've been operating." I said, "We just have to change." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. And then you also said, you said, "We need to ask God to search our hearts, "and in humility, confront the things that he brings up." [Aaron] Yeah, like the dross. Mm-hmm. And deal with it. [Aaron] Allow him to search us. And that actually came, so right at the end of the night, I made a phone call to a friend, and I told that friend. I said, "Let God search your heart." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And I get off the phone, and immediately this conversation broke out with us. And it's like, not to be a hypocrite, I must take my own advice. Yeah, yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And I was like, well, am I allowing God to search my heart? So I just said, "We need to let God search our hearts, "search within us, "and show us the things he wants to cut out of us, "he wants to change in us." And I wanna read all of Psalm 139. It's Psalm of David, a man after God's own heart. The Bible calls him that. God calls him a man after his heart. And as I brought up on Sunday when I was talking about this topic and what God was doing in us, I asked everyone, I said, "Do you want to be, "do you wanna be people that are after God's heart?" And everyone raised their hands. Yes. And said, "Yes," yeah. [Aaron] And said, "Yes." And I was like, "Well, we have a template for that. "We know someone who when they sinned against God "and were confronted by God with it, "confessed, and repented, and turned that moment." There was still consequences in life, but he was a man that showed us like, oh, when we walk this way, we can turn and walk the other way, and we can please God with our life. And so Psalm 139 says this. Oh, Lord, you have searched me and know me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up. You discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, oh Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in behind before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high, I cannot attain it. Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to Heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, surely the darkness shall cover me and the light about me be night, even the darkness is not dark to you. The night is bright as day, for darkness is as light with you. For you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works, my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was being made in secret intricately woven in the debts of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every one of them the days that were formed for me when as yet there was none of them. How precious to me are your thoughts, oh God. How vast is the sum of them. If I would count them, they are more than the sand. I awake and I am still with you. Oh, that you would slay the wicked, oh God. Oh men of blood, depart from me. They speak against you with malicious intent. Your enemies take your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate you, oh Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred. I count them my enemies. Search me, oh God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. And what's so powerful about this scripture, first of all, it's beautiful. Mm-hmm. Just David's ability to write poetry and song. He's very talented. But also his ability to show us the vastness of God's knowledge of us. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] That he knows us better than we know ourselves, better than anyone knows us. He was there before we were formed, had thoughts about us before we were formed, knew the days of our lives before they existed. And yet at the very end of this, he still asks this all-knowing God that knows everything about him to search him, and to know him, and to know his thoughts, and for the purpose of finding any grievous way in him. And I just think if David did that, as people with the Holy Spirit in us who searches our hearts would sit down and say, Lord, is there anything in me you want out of me? I think it's important for us as believers to do that. [Jennifer] Yeah, I know. It's just so beautiful. And I love how you brought up that God already knows us inside and out, every which way before we were even born. He's the one that knit us together. He is the one who made us in the secret place. And I think that that helps us trust him when we cry out to him and say, search me, oh Lord. We can trust God. Right. [Jennifer] Because he's the one that created us, and he already knows us. [Aaron] Yeah, and he desires us of our own will to invite him to search us. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] Because we can be oblivious. [Jennifer] Yeah, we can. [Aaron] It's not an excuse, but often we use it, the ignorance and obliviousness, as an excuse of like, well, I didn't know, or well, how am I supposed to, I'm not perfect. We use all these words, like you said, "Well, I'm not that bad." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And I've done the same thing. When I come to these thoughts that the Holy Spirit's prompting my heart, I say, well, I've changed a lot, and I used to be much worse, and therefore, I'll get better eventually, and it's not that bad. [Jennifer] Well, we can't be blindsided if we are growing in spiritual maturity to think that we've ever reached the pivotal place at the top where we're just like perfect. Yeah, we're there. [Jennifer] We're not there yet. We'll never be there until we're in the presence of God, and we have to stand before him. [Aaron] It's a great point is we're not there yet. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And so, A, can we humble ourselves enough to recognize that we're not there yet? [Jennifer] Well, we have to. -Yeah. We need to. [Aaron] Yeah, the Bible tells us that if we don't humble ourselves, we're gonna fall. And I don't wanna fall. I don't wanna, in our scenario, lose our kids. I don't wanna just continue in these every once in a while or every so often things that we deal with, and then embitter our kids to us. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. Or set the example so that when they're parents, they respond in this way. Let's just end it. Let's stop that, and show 'em the right way. [Aaron] And ask God on our knees, change us. Make us better. Show us how you want us to be the way everlasting, right? Yeah, 'cause who benefits from when we cry out and say, search me, oh God, of course we benefit from that if we walk out and pursue what he has for us in purifying our hearts and purifying our lives, but who else benefits? [Aaron] The body, others, our children, our spouse, our neighbors. It increases unity in the body of Christ with other Christians. Other people benefit from us inviting God to search us, and change us, and draw things out of us. And what's awesome is the Holy Spirit's already doing this. His desire is to sanctify us and transform us from the inside out. But there's something powerful about acknowledging and recognizing that he wants to do that. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And then it's almost like opening the curtains or taking the glasses off, you're like, oh, like yes. I'm gonna look for the things you wanna show me, so when you show me, I'm not gonna slough 'em off. I'm not gonna justify them away. I'm gonna say, that's something you're showing me. Okay, I'm gonna change it. I'm gonna walk in your spirit you're giving me, good Lord, to help me change it. We woke up that next morning, how did you feel? [Jennifer] Lighter and braver. [Aaron] Braver? Brave's a good word. [Jennifer] Yeah, I just felt like we could do this. And the coolest part is that we're doing it together. You could've had that revelation from the Lord and just continued on and maybe ask God to search your heart without ever having that conversation with me. But because you entered into that conversation with me, we're able to not just have had an awesome conversation where intimacy took place in that moment, especially-- I was just thinking the word intimacy, yeah. Over our children. That was so beautiful to me. But that we get to keep each other accountable and walk through it together. Day-to-day, we're asking each other, "Hey, how've you been? "How've you been with your attitude? "How you've been with your responses?" That is what marriage is, that's a part of what marriage is for, why God created two becoming one. [Aaron] Yeah, to help sanctify us, to transform us. Yeah, so it's not just your journey with God, although, that's important. It's our journey together, and how God can move through our marriage. [Aaron] Yeah, and the next day, man, it did feel lighter. It did feel like we can accomplish anything with God. It also empowered us. It made us ready for what God had next for us. And I don't know, I just wanna encourage everyone listening to consider the things we're saying. I asked everyone on Sunday. I said, "Go this weekend, ask God to search you." And it is scary, and I'm pretty sure there are people that haven't done it yet, because they're like, okay, am I ready for this? Am I, you know? [Jennifer] What's God gonna show me, even though you probably already know. [Aaron] Yeah. What's funny is just me even mentioning it, I bet you anything, things just immediately came to people's hearts. Well, what did I keep saying on the couch that night when I was crying? Do you remember? [Aaron] Um, we said a lot of things. You kept saying you can't, or-- I kept saying, "Why did you even say anything?" [Aaron] Oh, yeah. [Jennifer] Like three different times, I'm like-- And oh, yeah. "Why did you even say anything, why did you bring this up?" [Aaron] Yeah, "I don't even like that you brought it up." [Jennifer]But I didn't mean it. It was just my flesh-- No, it was out of your heart, yeah. Yep. Not wanting to confront certain things, but I know it needed to happen. And I'm so thankful. And I remember telling you, "I didn't bring it up. "God brought it up." Yeah, the Lord did. Which I'm grateful for, I really am. [Aaron] Well, yeah, and-- [Jennifer] And don't you feel unified in our marriage that we know that we're trying to tackle hard things with parenting? Together, yeah. [Jennifer] Together, yeah, I just love that. [Aaron] And what's funny is the more you're with someone, the more you're one with someone, the more your issues are the same. I think when we-- [Jennifer] We start copying each other. [Aaron] When we first got married, I had my issues, you had your issues, and we've slowly worked through a lot of them. Mm-hmm. Right? And now we're on the couch crying about the same thing. The same thing. [Aaron]Like our horrible parenting, or our horrible attitude. I might be exaggerating a little bit, but I feel like I'm not. Like that God wants us better in these areas. Well, here's the thing. I don't think it matters what level. I think that if it needs to change, he's gonna prick your heart about it. Yeah. And it's our job to have the courage to face it and allow God to transform us. That's the point. It doesn't matter what the level of harshness is if there's any harshness. God wants it. You know what I mean? [Aaron] Yeah, well, level is a good word. 'Cause you actually mentioned a while, you've talked about how if something you were walking in a sin wasn't to the same level of something I was walking in-- [Jennifer] I disregarded it. [Aaron] You would be like, well, it's not that. [Jennifer] It's not as bad as that guy. Yeah, at least I'm not like my husband, and the things he's walking in. [Jennifer] Stop justifying, Jen. [Aaron] We can actually, we do that. [Jennifer] I know. [Aaron] There's things that God might wanna change in us, and what we do is we say, well, it's not one of the major sins, so it's not that big of a deal. And God's like, wait, no, I'm not okay with any of it. The Bible tells us to be holy as he is holy. What that means is that we're pursuing the holiness, which means we're practicing it. In 1 John, it tells us, it says, he who practices righteousness is righteous. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And that's what God wants. He wants us to practice it, and he teaches us these things. And so-- [Jennifer] What's the challenge for them? [Aaron] The challenge for them, the challenge for them is to sit down with their spouse, and ask God to search them. As David said, search me, oh Lord. Know my thoughts. See if there be any grievous ways in me. [Jennifer] And if there are grievous ways and he reveals them to you, which he will, he's faithful, and he wants this for us to have the courage to change. [Aaron] Yeah, and to realize that you can change, and be transformed in those areas because the same Holy Spirit that just revealed those things to you lives in you empowering you to be different, to be a new kind of human. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] As The Bible Project always says. A new kind of human that we can actually be godly people. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And it's a journey. Yeah. And so that was our encouragement for everyone today is to do what we just did. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And then to do it often. We're gonna do it more often. We're gonna be kind of a constant prayer of like, okay, Lord, is there anything in me? Change me, make us new. [Jennifer] Yeah. Well, speaking of prayer, we ended the last episode on spiritual stamina with a time of prayer together, which I really enjoyed. That was really awesome. And we just loved that so much that we believe that there's a necessity to be praying with you guys. So at the end of every Marriage After God episode from here on out, we're gonna end with prayer. So you can look forward to ending each episode with us, and we just invite you to join us in prayer wherever you're listening. [Aaron] All right, I'm gonna pray. Dear Lord, thank you for your holy word that guides us and challenges us to be transformed. We desire to be mature. We desire to be who you create us to be. We lay our hearts down before you. Please search our hearts, Lord, and see if there be any grievous way in us. Prune our hearts. Cut out what is sinful and unfruitful. Strip away the bad and replace it with your good. Reveal to us the areas of our lives that need to be repented of, that need to be changed, that need to be transformed. If there is anything we have been hiding, anything we have been avoiding, anything we have been unaware of, please open our eyes to it all and give us the courage to confront it. Lord, help us to deny our flesh and embrace the righteousness through your Holy Spirit living in us. May we never be prideful. May we never be convinced that we don't have room to grow. Search our hearts, oh Lord. In Jesus' name, amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Aaron] So I hope that blessed everyone. Prayer is important. God calls us to pray without ceasing. And so have this conversation with your spouse, get in prayer, and see what the Lord reveals. So we thank you for joining us this week. And we hope it blessed you. We hope God's working in your lives. That's our constant prayer for you all. And we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Is social media harming us? Dr. King, the Director of Consumer Privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School, discusses what is wrong with the current internet algorithms, unseen manipulation, and behavior modification techniques.Transcript:Lisa:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Jennifer King. She's the director of consumer privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School. We'll be talking about the problems with social media today. Welcome to the program, Jennifer. Jennifer:Thank you. Lisa:You've recently gotten a new job at Stanford Law School. Can you first of all tell us what you're doing down there? Jennifer:Yes. I just graduated my PhD back here at Berkeley. Lisa:In what?Jennifer:Information science. At Stanford, I am the director of consumer privacy at the the Center for Law and Society at Stanford Law School.Lisa:You just started though.Jennifer:At Stanford, yes. I started in April before I graduated. Lisa:Last week, I had an interesting conversation with Jaron Lanier, who just wrote a book called Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now. I thought I'd have you on the show to talk about some of the ideas that we talked about since that is your area. Everybody knows there's something wrong right now in our society. Journalism is failing. Politics is failing. People are afraid they're losing their jobs to AI. Whether they are or not, they're afraid of it. There's a lot of social anxiety. What do you see as the problem with social media or do you?Jennifer:With social media specifically? Because there's a lot there. I think one of the challenges with social media is that it de-individuates us or it takes us away from our humanity to some extent. It's the same way when you're driving in a car and there's that object between you and the rest of the world and you might be a totally reasonable person in real life and then you get behind the wheel and you get road rage or you just find that you treat people more like objects than other people. When you communicate with people through a computer, it's that same object between you and them. I think it prevents us in some ways from connecting with people. Lisa:There's a lot of research now that backs up, especially with young people, that there is more anxiety, there's more sadness. I don't know exactly how they're measuring sadness but that people are acting out differently, particularly young people, which is scary. I think we need to re-examine Google and Facebook and others. Some aren't in the business of behavior modification, but the business model, it's not that the people behind it personally are doing this, but the business model they've created with machine language literally takes us on a downward path. It's not left or right. It's actually down because the algorithm support and make money off of negative emotions. Jennifer:Sure. I've worked in Silicon Valley, and I can tell you having been-Lisa:Who did you work for?Jennifer:I worked for Yahoo. I worked for other startups too, but I worked for Yahoo back in the early 2000s, and was part of not directly developing social media software that was part of that scene, you could call it in the Bay Area back around 2000-plus where I was part of those social networks that emerged during that time. I think we were all very optimistic, and there wasn't a lot of thought about what the consequences were of any of these things people made. It was mostly like, let's just try this and see what happens. I think at first, there was an optimism driving it. We're doing this because let's see what happens. It could be really interesting. I think that shifted. It shifted over time from that to let's do this and maybe we'll get acquired by somebody to now let's do this and see how much personal data we can potentially mine from this product and from these people using it. Part of that is the consequence of building this entire infrastructure off the idea that it's free and not making people pay for it. I think the other piece of it too is that most of the people in this space, I would argue, are not thinking about what these products would do or these services would do to kids. It was one thing to put a lot of this in the hands of people who already had a solid footing on what it meant to talk to people in reality. We didn't grow up with phones and we barely grew up with computers, many of us, and so we had a foundation for what it meant to interact with people. Now suddenly, you have kids who've grown up immersed in this technology and it's shifted to where it's almost as if they don't know how to interact with each other. Lisa:Right. It's a big intermediary for them. Jennifer:Yeah. Professor Sherry Turkle has written extensively on this. I think she's done some of the best research on it. Lisa:Where is she?Jennifer:She's at MIT, and she's published several books in this area and that's where I'm drawing some of my own insight. Lisa:It's an unfortunate collision of math and human biology. Jennifer:Yeah. I would say, too, part of the challenge is that being a technologist has suddenly brought with it a lot of power in the society. We don't educate technologists to think about other people. If you are a Berkeley or a Stanford computer science student, for the most part, I don't believe you even had to take any ethics requirements in the past. I know that's changing, but you've been able to tinker with this giant social experiment without necessarily having any education or training or having been challenged to really think about the consequences of your actions on other people. It's mostly just been a chase to see what cool thing can we make next. I think we're seeing the consequences of that.Lisa:We are. There seems to be a groundswell now of people, at least researchers, academicians, economists, who are now looking at all of this behavior modification and the implications. They're also looking at data as labor instead of data as capital because for the first time ever, I think there are just a few people who own these big, what Jaron Lanier called siren servers, and they're making money on everybody else. There's only one buyer and multiple sellers of information so it's a monopsony. Jennifer:Yes, a very hard word to say. Lisa:Yes. I want to talk about that, all of the data that's been pulled from us with our knowledge and without our knowledge. Jennifer:That's a tough one because from my perspective, I study privacy and I study people. I try to understand how information privacy, how people think about it, what they care about. I'm willing to bet that most of us have figurative piles of digital photos hanging out either on our personal computers, on our phones, and managing all those things is really hard. I don't think I know anybody who actually has a grip on the number of photos they take. Lisa:I don't even look at them anymore. Jennifer:Right. I think you can extend that to your own data. We talk about a lot about we want to give people more control and we want to put them in control. If we could just somehow get our hands on this ephemeral data, then it will be okay. My skepticism with that just comes from the fact that it's such an information overload that it's possible we could build an infrastructure that makes it easy for people or at least easier. Right now, I think the push to get people's hands on the data isn't going to necessarily have the effect we want it to or that we might be hoping it will. I think there are good reasons for making the companies open up their platforms that have to do with issues of power and control and just trying to force a level of openness that doesn't exist presently. Whether that ends up with empowering people individually because they can actually see what data is collected about them, I'm a little bit skeptical of that actually.Lisa:What about data? People talk about universal basic income, but now people are talking about you've gotten these companies rich off of all this data and with your consent. You've given this away, but now-Jennifer:Kind of your consent. Lisa:Yeah. There are people, groups like datavest and researchers. Even at Stanford, they're looking at the idea of monetizing your data so that in place of a universal basic income, someday you might get every month a certain amount of money in return for the barter that you've given away your private life. Jennifer:Not to wallow in trendy technologies right now, but I think we've ... I don't know if your listeners or if you've talked so much about blockchain. Lisa:Oh yeah, I've had people on here actually from the UC Berkeley blockchain group. Jennifer:Great. I don't know if blockchain is the answer to that problem, but it seemingly could potentially be an answer to the data management piece. Every proposal I've seen in this vein has (a) put the burden on the individual to manage it in a way that I don't think most people want to do. You can't manage your photos. You don't also probably want to manage your personal data on a day-to-day basis. Lisa:Exactly.Jennifer:I don't even balance my checking account anymore. I just ... What has to give? I have to say I don't know too much about the blockchain proposal insofar as I have seen it voiced as a potential solution for this distributed data management problem. Lisa:It seems to me that if Facebook and Google were smart, they would get off this business model that's on a downward anyway because it's going to implode. You can't take data as capital forever. If they would say, okay, we realize what we're doing and now we're going to turn around and give you back something, they'll probably never do that because their business model, they make too much money. There are groups like of datavest. They propose a co-op organization where they are the intermediary between the big computer monsters that they're leasing to do this complex mathematical, but blockchain would be part of that probably, keeping accounting records and-Jennifer:Right. Making it manageable for end users, for individuals. I think that the challenge is that right now in some ways, collecting data is more valuable than it potentially has been before because companies are using this to feed their AI systems. It's a big training base. Given how much focus right now is on AI and improving those systems ... As an information scientist, I can tell you that you need data to train those systems to improve them. Lisa:Like language translation. Jennifer:Absolutely.Lisa:You need real people. They're grabbing real people's translations in order to make the Google Translate work better. Jennifer:Which I think is actually a really excellent example of this being used for good in a sense.Lisa:It is, but what about the jobs of human translators? At some point, there's real no artificial intelligence right now, but at some point when perhaps there is, they won't have a job anymore. Jennifer:Well, I don't know if it necessarily obviates all human translators, but I will tell you I was in Mexico last year. I wasn't going to hire a translator to go with me from place to place to place, but Google Translate was really helpful for trying to talk to a cab driver because my Spanish is terrible. Lisa:I agree with you there, but let's pay those human translators for that data. Jennifer:Sure. Yeah. Just to go back to that thought though. One of the reasons why I don't think you'll see the recognition by the companies that this could be a downward slope right now is because right now as they're trying to improve their consumer AI systems, there is probably a fanatical need or desire for as much data as you can get. Given that, I think if you want to see the changes you're talking about, it will probably emerge through civil society and other groups putting together proposals and pushing it. I think you'll have to see it from a government side ultimately. I don't know if you'll see it in this country. Lisa:There does have to be some oversight. I don't know. I feel like this problem is so urgent right now. When you look at the Annapolis shootings, which some people are saying were triggered by trolls online, and that could be misinformation. It's hard to find the truth that is hurting our society. Also with journalism, I use that as an example a lot because they missed the Trump election. They missed the recent Brooklyn, the young woman who beat out the stronghold Democrat challenger. That was completely missed. What's going on? They can't afford investigative journalists. Most organizations can't anymore, so finding out the truth is really difficult. I think that's changing us. In so many ways, it's making us more siloed. We don't know what red states are thinking because we only see what the algorithms want us to see. It's creating this bifurcated society. In fact, it turns out a lot of technologists send their kids to Waldorf schools and Montessori schools because they're worried about this. Jennifer:I don't let my kids use a lot of technology. Lisa:You don't? Why?Jennifer:Well, I guess to go back full circle to the social media piece. Again, I think using social media is a different experience for those of us who have developed the skill in her personal communication and relationships in person and that it's a much different equation when you're talking about kids. It used to be that the internet was connecting us across space, and now we're seeing it used in a very hyper local way when it used to connect people who were sitting right next to each other. That's a very different vision, I think, than where we started from, and I don't think we've thought so much about what that means for the people inhabiting that space together. Certainly with teenagers, you see it in terms of the competition it fosters for I want the best Instagram photo. I would say it's a double ... two big parts to it. One of it is parents saying something, I mean really being involved and understanding what their kids are doing, which I realize is not always easy, especially if you're not particularly tech literate. I'm just, as a parent, I'm often amazed how many small children I see who are just given phones and parents are ignoring them and they're just going on and on and on. It just amazes me. There's definitely been greater calls to tech companies to really start thinking more about the implications of what they're doing, not only on this, but a lot of parts of their work across society. I think that the types of restrictions we have on phones, for example, are in their infancy. We could do a lot more in terms of thinking through like what's an appropriate set of parental controls you can put on a phone? For example, to get to meter kids' usage so you can teach them, bound it, like this is what it means to be on your phone for 20 minutes and when the 20 minutes are up, you're done. You're locked out.Lisa:They can get around that stuff though. They're going to be so much more tech savvy than you or I.Jennifer:I have younger kids, so I'm still-Lisa:They'll just hack your restrictions. Jennifer:I'm still biased towards the fact that I can take the thing away from my five-year-old versus having a 15-year-old with a phone, which I realize is different.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, I'm speaking with Dr. Jennifer King. She's the director of consumer privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School. Well, I wanted to ask you about your new job at Stanford Law School. California just passed this pretty intense data privacy law. It isn't as restrictive as Europe, but can you talk about that and explain what's going on to our listeners? Jennifer:The law that was just passed was the result of we'll say panic by the tech sector with the upcoming ballot initiative that was to appear on the ballot in November. There was a ballot initiative or it was placed on the ballot that would have had placed some more restrictions on privacy with respect to tech companies. Some of the provisions in the ballot measure ended up in this final bill but not all of them. When I looked at this bill, again I'm not a lawyer so that's my disclaimer for my own analysis, but one of the things I actually was frustrated by, which I don't know if we'll see addressed ultimately because a lot of the talk last week was around the fact that doesn't go into effect until 2020 so we may see amendments to it. It was that it doesn't place any limits on the collection of data nor on the reselling of it. It gives consumers a little bit more power than they had before, but I'm actually fairly disappointed with the outcome of that bill because I don't think it really does much beyond allowing you to say, hey, don't sell my data. A lot of the big companies that we've been concerned about actually aren't selling your data to begin with. They're collecting it, and they're selling access to it, and that doesn't change at all under this bill. It doesn't curb some of the, I think, the worst cases we see of data being collected without your explicit consent. It does nothing about that consent issue. If you download a free app for a smartphone and the app developer is using a third party advertising service that serves ads in the app, that service is collecting data from your phone about your usage as you're using it. The same with any website that you're not blocking third party cookies or third party ad trackers on, if you're using a regular computer and a browser, those ad services are also collecting data from you or from your browser experience. This bill doesn't really do anything to curb that. Lisa:Does it do anything about the cameras on your phones and computers that are looking at your facial expressions and that goes into the machine language algorithm as well, the listening that goes on with your devices?Jennifer:Yes, you have devices in your pocket that can listen to you and can take your picture. Certainly the way they get consent from you is often not clear. Lisa:Most of the time, you don't read the consent anyway on these sites that you go to. Jennifer:However, it is against the law for them to be surveilling you without you having consented. At the same time, you might be using a service that wants to capture your voice as part of what it does, so take a smart speaker, for example. That's an area I've been looking at a bit lately.Lisa:Like the Alexis and Siri.Jennifer:Right. They're voice activated. They need to listen to you. For how long and what it records and the duration and what it does with that recording is an interesting question, but that is the essence of a smart speaker so you do have to let it capture your voice. It's just a question of then what happens to that data. Lisa:In your capacity, in your new job, what are the problems you're trying to solve in the near term? Jennifer:My job is research focused, so part of it is about the type of research that I am looking to do. Because I just graduated with my PhD, some of it is about publishing my own dissertation work.Lisa:Which was on what?Jennifer:Privacy. I don't think I want to go into the details. It's a long and complicated thing. Lisa:It's private.Jennifer:It's not private, but I think it would bore a lot of people. Some of the issues that I've been interested in exploring in this new role are genetic privacy. Actually, a part of my dissertation research was on 23andMe users. I was very interested in looking at-Lisa:What they do with that information?Jennifer:Yeah. Also just people's expectations around it and what motivates them to have their DNA sequenced and what happens to your DNA after you give it to a service like that. That's an area I've been interested in looking at, as well as emotional privacy because I think one of the things that's been a side effect of Facebook and Cambridge Analytica and something I saw in my own work is that people often get the most concerned about their privacy when it comes to data about them that really gets to who they think they are. By that, I mean it's one thing for a credit reporting company to collect your address and your credit history. That's important information and, of course, we're upset if it gets breached. Your sense of privacy around it I think is different than, for example, another piece of my dissertation research was looking at people's search queries. One of the things I found was that actually of the people I looked at, I asked these 23andMe users about their genetic data as compared to their search queries. Most of them were far more concerned about the content of their search queries than about their DNA. That was mostly because they felt like their DNA, sure, it identifies you uniquely, but they felt like it didn't tell people about them. The way that if you looked at five years of your search queries, your unfiltered search queries, that could tell you much more about who they are, what they're thinking about, what they care about. Lisa:That's interesting. Maybe because search queries are free, but the 23andMe, you have to pay to join that service. I've done it, so I know there's a certain fee. With that fee structure, maybe that makes people think, oh well, data is private. It's not going to be-Jennifer:The question of paying for it, yes and no. Yes, it definitely ... When people pay for something, what I've observed is that there are definitely more expectations around I paid for this, so they better not sell my data or at least I hope they won't. With free services, there's also an expectation of privacy. It's not as if most people use something like Google search and assume that their search queries are going to be used in a multitude of different ways against them or released to the public. People had privacy expectations in that data even if it was [crosstalk].Lisa:That's important to talk about.Jennifer:What Cambridge Analytica and Facebook has also shown us is the power of the emotional data, which is something I'm also trying to focus on because I think that's the next frontier. I think it's the next frontier in terms of the types of data we're going to try to let's say extract from people. There are people focusing on emotion recognition as a way to improve different experiences, technological experiences. I, of course, being a skeptic, I'm always skeptical leading into these things, so I'm really curious to keep an eye on companies that are doing emotion detection and see where that goes in terms of the next type of data we've been collecting about people would be your emotional state. There's lots of research into computer mediated communication that charts basically all of this. The research is there. You just have to know where to look for it and put it into play. Lisa:Maybe we should start educating people at a very early age, like elementary school about privacy. Is that something-Jennifer:You can talk to my rising fourth grader.Lisa:Have you thought about that? We need to institute this in schools if we're going to-Jennifer:Yeah, there are definitely people in the privacy research field who have worked on curriculum for at least high school students. I agree that it should go probably at least middle school and maybe the fifth grade, fourth grade, fifth grade level. There are definitely people working on that. How widely distributed that curriculum gets, I think that's the challenge. It'd be nice if California as a state did something with it rather than it just being a one-off one teacher in one school being interested in that issue. Going back to the genetic data piece and the search query piece. One of the things though that is really interesting about the genetic data area is the fact that a lot of what you're doing with that is sharing it with other people in the service. Whether that's looking for relatives or with 23andMe, you can share it with the company for their development or for their research purposes. One of the things I thought was really interesting about the people I talked to who used it was how much they were motivated by that sharing, the research sharing with the expectation that, hey, if my data is used to develop a new drug that can help the world, great.I'm a skeptic so my counterpoint was, sure, it could be used, but it might be used to develop a drug that then their pharmaceutical partner charges $50,000 a dose for. There's no-Lisa:Right, or that you get absolutely nothing for-Jennifer:Right. You don't get anything from it monetarily. That's another interesting area of people willingly contributing their data to a private database for private development with no guarantees that there'll be a public benefit from it. Lisa:I really think we need to innovate that business model and return, in some way monetize this data that is benefiting a few people. You look at Facebook. 60% of it is owned by Mark Zuckerberg. They don't have that many employees. It needs to be more democratized. Jennifer:Well, I would argue. I was reading something recently online that was asking four notable internet theorists about basically what went wrong. It got me thinking about like what would I do? What would I have changed about the last 25 years? I think that going back to the mid to late '90s, there was a real ... The drum beat from Silicon Valley as much as it was an internet business at that point was very much like leave us alone. Don't regulate us in any way. Don't crush the internet. Let it blossom. Let it grow. There was pretty much a total hands-off approach with a couple of small exceptions along the way. I think if I went back in time, the thing I would change is not necessarily regulating, but I think making this expectation that there needed to be a public benefit. I don't know how I would do that, to be honest, if it's that the companies needed to ... Actually, I think maybe not a bad model would be looking back at radio and the development of radio and the fact that you used to have the fairness doctrine and public service announcements. There was this explicit recognition that the radio waves were a public resource and that they would lease them to private broadcasters, but there had to be some public benefit that they gave back. I wish we could have made that more explicit in the development of the internet.Lisa:Some people think what went wrong is that it was free, that if we would have had to pay just a nominal amount of money for the right to browse or whatever, we wouldn't be dealing with all the advertising and behavior modification and so on. Jennifer:I was interviewed recently by some undergraduates at Stanford, and they asked me some pretty challenging questions that I had to stop and think about it too. Part of it was like, why do you do this? Why are you interested in this stuff? Given how many bad things feel like they're happening today, it's a real challenge to think about why are we doing this? Why am I involved in technology? Why don't I just run away and do something else? I think because there have been some real positive changes, despite all of the negative ones. I guess at the end of the day, I feel like it's not worth giving up on it at this point. Not that we even could, but I think that we let industry drive everything for the last 25 years. I think what you're seeing is a real recognition by people that they have to take this back into their own hands to some extent, both in terms of how they're being used and their data and just the power these large companies have to shape society in a way that I think people are really recoiling from. How we do that, I think some of the things we've talked about today are some of the hints that people collectively getting together and thinking about what can we do to shift the power balance. I think it is important to remember that this technology gives you a lot. There's a lot of things. I think if you asked us, would we go back to 1995 and give up some of the things we have now such as your ability to use a map online or a map on a phone? I think that's a pretty powerful tool.Lisa:[crosstalk] from your child at school. Jennifer:Right. I always joke when I first got a cellphone, the first thing, I was living in Hawaii, the first thing I did was went to the beach and called people back in California going, "I'm calling you from the beach."Lisa:It's not the internet. It's not the technology that's a problem, I think. It's the-Jennifer:It's the people.Lisa:The behavior modification algorithms. I think it's just we need to change the model. We're not going to get rid of the technology, but make it better, like you say. I think that's wonderful. It's a good goal. You have a lot of work ahead of you. Jennifer:Yeah. I can't retire anytime soon. Lisa:I'd like to have you back on at some point and once you've been in this role for quite a while and see what you're thinking then.Jennifer:Yeah. Lisa:You've been listening to Method to the Madness. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Dr. Veronica Anderson, Host, Functional Medicine Specialist and Medical Intuitive interviews Jennifer Fugo on How to be a Savvy Gluten Free Shopper. Do you want to regain your health? Certified Health Coach and founder of Gluten Free School, Jennifer Fugo, has created the number one spot for those living a gluten-free life seeking community, simple & clear information about their condition, and ways to become empowered and finally feel better. She is dedicated to teach gluten-sensitive individuals simple, savvy and empowering steps to get healthy. In this episode, Jennifer will talk about how she healed her gluten sensitivity in 3 days, the issue with the food supply in America and how choosing certified gluten free product can simplify your life. She will also share the biggest tips that will help you transition into a gluten-free lifestyle, key GF products and companies and how to order food when eating at restaurants. Listen to the end to access to the 9 Homemade & Store-bought Gluten Free Breads cheat sheet.   Dr. Veronica Anderson's Links https://www.linkedin.com/in/drveronicaanderson/ https://www.facebook.com/drveronicaanderson/ https://twitter.com/DrVeronicaEyeMD?lang=en https://www.pinterest.com/drveronicaeyemd/?eq=dr.%20veronica&etslf=14837 https://www.instagram.com/drveronica/?hl=en   Recommended Books: Jennifer Fugo: The Savvy Gluten-Free Shopper- http://amzn.to/2ogW8i1   Discussed: 9 Homemade & Store-bought Gluten Free Breads - http://eatbettergfbread.com/   Show Notes: 01:50 - Is gluten free a weight loss program? 02:45 - Developing gluten symptoms   07:00 - Gluten sensitivity 3-day cure 09:30 - Why Jennifer started the Gluten Free School 14:00 - Severe IGG sensitivity to eggs 15:00 - Celiac disease vs. gluten sensitivity 16:55 - Non-invasive Celiac test 18:00 - Leaky gut and digestive repair 23:00 - The issue with the food supply in America 29:30 - What is Certified Gluten Free? 31:00 - Biggest tips when transitioning to gluten free 35:52 - Gluten free products and companies 40:00 - Ordering food at PF Chang's restaurants 49:00 - Finding the right practitioner 52:00 - Eating GF free bread _______________________________ Dr. Veronica Anderson is an MD, Functional Medicine practitioner, Homeopath. and Medical Intuitive. As a national speaker and designer of the Functional Fix and Rejuvenation Journey programs, she helps people who feel like their doctors have failed them. She advocates science-based natural, holistic, and complementary treatments to address the root cause of disease. Dr. Veronica is a highly-sought guest on national television and syndicated radio and hosts her own radio show, Wellness for the REAL World, on FOX Sports 920 AM “the Jersey” on Mondays at 7:00 pm ET.   If you enjoyed this episode, do us a favor and share it! Also if you haven’t already, please take a minute to leave us a 5-star review on iTunes and claim your bonus here!   Want to regain your health? Go to http://drveronica.com/ Transcripts Female VO: Welcome to the Wellness Revolution Podcast, the radio show all about wellness in your mind, body, spirit, personal growth, sex, and relationships. Stay tuned for weekly interviews featuring guests that have achieved physical, mental, and spiritual health in their lives. If you'd like to have access to our entire back catalog visit drveronica.com for instant access. Here's your host, Dr. Veronica. Dr. Veronica: Welcome to another episode of Dr. Veronica's Wellness Revolution. It's hot where I am today. It's humid and me and my guest are having bad hair days. This is why you say, "Dr. Veronica, you don't look as good as you usually look."  Jennifer: Bad hair day. Dr. Veronica: But you're not looking at us because we have good hair or bad hair you are listening to the Wellness Revolution because you need knowledge about a particular subject. So I'm going to talk about a subject today with my guest. We're going to talk about gluten once again. Why am I going to hit gluten again? Because there's so much everything going around with the gluten. So much everything that I can't talk to enough people.  Why? Because there's myths, there's facts, there's different ways to go about it. And if you are struggling with figuring out, "Can I do this? How do I do this?" The more people that you hear, you might hear that piece of information that helps you get on the road because this is crucial to your health. Let me say one other thing about this. Although a lot of people go gluten free because they want to lose weight, this is not why we do the program. Going gluten free is not a weight loss program. Pure end of the discussion. So if you think I'm going off gluten because I want to drop a lot of pounds, go ahead off of gluten.  But if you can keep gluten in your eating plan I recommend that you do it because that group of foods has particular nutrients in it. And if you're not gluten sensitive you should keep eating them. Not excessively but everything, pretty much unless you have a sensitivity you should be in your eating plan.  Having said that I would like to introduce to you the founder of the Gluten Free School. How about that? The Gluten Free School where you can go and learn how to do this. It's a little bit more. Now we have a school about it. Jennifer, oh my gosh. I always come across this. Jennifer Fugo? Jennifer: Yes, Fugo.  Dr. Veronica: People have these names and everybody tells me I'm very good at pronouncing people's names. But Jennifer Fugo? Jennifer: Fugo... My family's name got shortened on Ellis Island so... Dr. Veronica: So Jennifer Fugo, Gluten Free School. We're going to talk... But instead of me telling you all her accolades I want you to hear her story about how she founded the Gluten Free School. Jennifer, welcome to the Wellness Revolution and jump right in and just start talking to the viewers about where you started on this gluten free journey. Jennifer: First I want to thank you so much Dr. Veronica for the invitation to come on your show and get to educate people about this because I know that where I started I had never heard of gluten before. And I come from an Italian... I just mentioned my name got shortened on Ellis Island. My great grandparents came here from Italy. We still have relatives that we're connected to in Italy. There's a lot of traditional things about my... I never heard of gluten. I was like, "What, gluten? What is that? Glue?" I had no idea. Dr. Veronica: It is like glue. Jennifer: Right, it is. More like breads and all sorts of things because of the nature of the protein. But I think a lot of people come at this from reading things online that are incorrect, and sometimes make them afraid to eat. That sort of what happened to me. I was 27 when I was actually diagnosed with non-celiac gluten sensitivity which is different than celiac disease. And we can certainly talk about that if you haven't talked about that before.  I had terrible brain fog. I couldn't remember things. I had acne. I had round rashes on my arms and on my legs. I would sleep for 9 to 12 hours a day and I still couldn't get up. So my husband would have to shake me and pull me out of bed and I still could've taken a nap in the afternoon. And then I was just so fatigued.  I have these digestive problems that I just thought were normal. How many of us are like, "I have stomach problems. It's natural. Whatever." It wasn't. I would get diarrhea all the time. I had terrible gas. I know people start to chuckle. They're like, "Oh my gosh, she's going to talk about this." But if I don't talk about it who's going to talk about it.  My gas actually smelled so bad that my husband got to a point where he didn't want to be around me. It's funny but it's not funny because can you imagine if you're in a business meeting, or you're with family or friends, so you're trying to hold that in and it causes stomach pains and all sorts of problems.  Occasionally we get constipated but my issues with gluten were more of the spectrum of just diarrhea. Like in the middle of a meal I'd be running to the bathroom five, six, seven, eight times, doubled over in pain. I had to go now or I would have had an accident, like bathroom emergency. And so I really didn't know that any of this was abnormal because I'd had it so long. And what I also didn't know that was connected to this was that I had chronic headaches since I was a teenager. So I've been taking Tylenol for a very long time. And about a year period I had gained almost 20 pounds despite being a total gym rat and trying to eat really well, eat organic, whole grains, and all that stuff. I had kept putting on weight that I couldn't get rid of and I felt very puffy.  Bloated, yes, but it was more just all over. It's just an all over puffiness that no matter how much I exercised, no matter how much I tried to diet, the needle wasn't going in the direction I wanted it to ahead. It kept going up and I was starting to get really concerned that something... I'm like, "Did I break me? What's going on? I'm so out of control and I don't know what to do." I've tried everything that I think I needed to do like cutting calories, and watching my fat intake, and doing all of these... and it just wasn't working at all. Anyway, after going through a rigmarole of doctors and things and they didn't know what was wrong I landed in a nutritionist's office and she looked at my diet and said, "Have you ever heard of gluten? And do you know what gluten sensitivity is?" And I was like, "No, no clue. You have to enlighten me." This is full disclosure that is not the case with everyone. My journey is my own and I don't want people to think, "I have all these symptoms the same as Jen. So if do what she does I'm going to feel magically better in three days." That's not true. Some people it takes longer than that. But my story is that within three days the terrible gas stopped. The explosive diarrhea stopped. The stomach pain stopped. And I just felt overall more with it. That was the initial thing, and after a week I was like... even my husband said something's different. We did blood spot testing and it turned out that I had not just sensitivity to gluten, I have an even more severe reaction to eggs. And I'm also sensitive to the casein protein which is found in all dairy products including goat, or sheep, or anything else. The cashew family, the cruciferous family, I had a lot of things that I had to take out of my diet.  Again, I mentioned, I didn't put together the pieces that the headaches were connected, or the weight gain was connected, or the fact that I was getting sick about every six weeks with whatever cold or flu or bug that was going around. I didn't know that all these things were connected to what was happening in my digestive system. And by taking them out my life changed.  If you go to my website you can see a before and after picture and it's not one of those things where you're like, "Is that person sucking in?" I'm not sure, the lighting's hard to tell. I look very different. I looked so different at that point that I had friends that I haven't seen in about a year who are like, "Are you okay? You look so different than I'm used to seeing you. Are you sick? What's going on because I lost a lot of weight."  My husband and I hadn't put it together until he happened to be... he was on Photoshop going through photos that we were taking on our trip and have those two pictures up side by side and he was like, "Now I know why people think you look different." It takes time, number one. But when I went gluten free back in 2008 when all this happened to me there was some books they weren't that great. I was given three websites. "Best of luck. I'll talk to you in eight weeks." And I had to figure it out myself.  And so the whole point of founding Gluten Free School, and I also want to share too. I'm not just coming at this from what my experience has been. I worked for 10 years for my father who's an MD and a surgeon, an ophthalmologist just like yourself. And so I worked right with patients with him. I have a lot of experience first-hand of what patients go through, not just for myself but also what a patient goes through when they go to the doctor's office. I understand a lot about that. And then I decided to go back and become a certified health coach because I wanted to help people with their diet. And now I'm in the process of finishing my final semester of Masters in Nutrition program. I'm so excited. I'm almost close to [Unintelligible 00:10:38] done that. And I actually just started an internship yesterday with a functional medicine doctor. I have continued to take this very seriously because I understand that there's an incredible knowledge gap. And it can seem so daunting and so impractical, and so inconvenient, and so hard, and so expensive, and we could go on and on and on about all the barriers that prevent people from actually making this lifestyle change. The reason that Gluten Free School exists is not only just to educate people but to empower them to make better choices to be able to talk to their doctors with confidence. And to also know that the decisions that they're making aren't nuts, that they're practical for their own lives, that you don't have to go broke doing this, and that you can be incredibly happy and incredibly satisfied living a life that happens to be gluten free. And by the way it benefits your health if that's what you need. And I agree with you, you shouldn't ever do this diet just to lose weight. Just because that was my experience does not mean that that's going to happen for everyone. It does not mean that everybody's migraines are going to away if they go gluten free or any number of things. There are maybe other... For me I had multiple food sensitivities. I have gut issues that needed to be resolved. So it's not a quick fix. It's not a miracle. It's not some heaven sent thing. Yes, people who are sensitive to it are going to experience changes but I'm also very cautious and pragmatic about how I talk about this because there are a lot of emotional implications. There's a lot of stuff that frankly sucks especially when you're dealing with family and friends that don't care about how you're eating now and it's an inconvenience to them about dining out and all that stuff. So I want to make it easy and simple. But I also want to make sure that people feel happy and satisfied in their lives. And that the diet isn't going to drive you nuts. Dr. Veronica: Let's sort of transition, and I always like to add on a little bit to what people say because everybody brings out a little bit of different nuggets. And so first of all when you went to a professional because you didn't know what was going on. And so now gluten free and everything is all over the place so people may want to say, "I don't want to go to a professional. I just want to do it myself. There's more resources out there." However, let me just point out one piece of your story that was quite important, you found out you were sensitive to gluten but this, and this, and this, and this too. And that's what happens with people, sometimes people go off gluten and they have sensitivities in other areas. And they say, "I went gluten free and it didn't work." They may be the persons that are not sensitive to gluten.  I say that in that you ended up finding out not only is it gluten, it's all these other things too. And I have all these other things affecting my digestion, and that's a completely different issue than just I'm sensitive to gluten.  Jennifer: Right. And Dr. Veronica to add to that, remember I said I took gluten out. That first week I was like whoa, it's different. The thing was I kept getting really sick, like that explosive, painful diarrhea, like everyone once in a while I can't figure out what it was. I was like, "I don't have any gluten in my diet. I don't know why this is still happening." I want to tell her that I feel better and maybe it's gluten, maybe it's not.  If I was doing this on my own I might have concluded that I kind of feel better but not 100%. It turns out and I didn't know this until I got those blood results back that I have a severe sensitivity and IgG sensitivity to eggs. And I eat a lot of eggs. And the last time I ever ate eggs which I remember because I still to this day, that was 2008 I still have not eaten eggs.  I had egg salad with mayo in it and I got so sick that I thought I was having a heart attack. I was at the gym working out and I was jamming my fist into my stomach because I was like oh my gosh, and it started here. I could feel the pain moving down and I need to go home, I need to go home. And part way home I had to pull over the car because I thought I was going to pass out. I was in so much agonizing pain. It goes to show you, and you're right, that's a very good point to make and to clarify for people that if you go it alone it can be a real challenge to pinpoint exactly what's going on. And then also too, and this is one my biggest regrets, my practitioner never told me what celiac disease was. And celiac disease is different than being sensitive to gluten, because celiac disease is an autoimmune disease. So there's a lot more implications if you have an autoimmune reaction to something. So I never got tested.  So could I go and get genetic testing now to find out if I have one of the two or both of the celiac genes? Sure. At this point [Unintelligible 00:15:48]. But I'm not going to go any gluten for six weeks in order to get an endoscopy with a biopsy. That's considered the gold standard. I would advise somebody if you're going to go it alone just be aware, if you find gluten bothers you you got to go back to a gastroenterologist and find out if you have an issue beyond just being sensitive to gluten. Because having celiac disease predisposes you to developing other autoimmune conditions.  Like Hashimoto's thyroiditis for example, you're four times more likely to develop Hashimoto's. So most people who develop one autoimmune disease are more likely to end up with multiples. And that's not good. That's a state where you're body's attacking itself. So my biggest regret, that's why I say to people, it's not good to go this alone is that you can end up being in a state of uncertainty for a very long time. And that can catch up with you down the road if you don't do it the right way. I always think the most efficient way to do it is the right way from the get-go, not have to figure it out later on when there's a huge problem.  Dr. Veronica: One thing I just want to clarify for people, you said the only way to get diagnosed with celiac is to get an endoscopy. There are other tests that you can get that are not invasive now, that are very, very predictive of it. If you have one of these sensitivities then you have to go to a doctor. And it's not usually a gastroenterologist. It's usually a functional wellness specialist type doctor that's going to know, "Okay, we need to get this or that to figure out whether or not you look like you have celiac versus you don't have celiac." And so understand there are other ways to test this other than cleaning yourself out and having somebody scope you. Because I know that prospect will scare people right away. There are many invasive ways that are not painful to figure it out and then you could be on the road. And you want to know, because if you're feeling miserable you're making yourself sicker, and autoimmune diseases have all kinds of ugly complications including organ failure. So you don't want to just do it.  And let me just say, the number one cause of these autoimmune disease are food sensitivity. Food sensitivity is what's causing a lot of this so you have to understand what you're sensitive to. Let's talk a little bit more as we're talking about gluten some of the big terms right now. You mentioned one of them. I see it a lot of time, leaky gut.  I talked to people about leaky gut, and whenever I see somebody like Jennifer, their tests come back after I do testing, and they're sensitive too. There's 90 foods tested, they're sensitive to 80 of them. I don't say, "Stop eating everything." I say, "They have leaky gut and so therefore we have to do  a digestive repair." And there's a particular protocol for that. That's what I say. You're sensitive to everything, leaky gut. Jennifer, in layman's terms to the audience tell people what I just and why I said it from your perspective. Jennifer: Essentially from my perspective as well, to give people a little bit more of clarity. If you go to a regular doctor and you say, "I think I have leaky gut." They're going to be like, "You have what? What is that? Excuse me? That's not a real thing."  You'd want to use the term gut permeability because that's the correct medical term for it. And there actually is a lot of data out there and a lot of research around gut permeability. One really interesting study that came up recently, and maybe I'll talk about this in a moment after I explain what leaky gut is just in layman's terms. But there is a lot of interesting research as you said to go back to that whole thing about autoimmune disease. That food sensitivity specifically gluten actually play a huge role in altering what can essentially stay within your digestive track and what sneaks out into your body. Realize that you're digestive system, that tube if you want to think it as a host, so the stomach to the small intestine, to the large intestine, etc., technically the outside of your body. Even though we think of inside it's the outside. And that hose there's only one cell layer of thickness that constitutes that host. So you've got one cell layer that's preventing you from getting exposed to bacteria, parasites, viruses, food particles, all sorts of things.  What can happen with gluten, and actually this is the study that I was talking about. They said they took three different groups of people, three or four actually. They took people with celiac disease, individuals who were I believe gluten sensitive and then healthy individuals who reacted not at all to gluten. And they exposed them all to gluten and looked at the gut permeability. That means essentially could particles pass from the host into the body. They shouldn't be able to do that. That's not actually good. In all cases, no matter whether you are healthy or not gluten increased the permeability of everybody's digestive track, AKA, the hose. Dr. Veronica: I'm going to reiterate this. I want to reiterate this. I'm familiar with the study obviously and I heard one doctor say it at a conference gluten will eventually get everybody. Gluten will eventually get everybody. What Jennifer told you, here's what the study says, what the bottom line is gluten will get you even if you're not sensitive today, ultimately you will begotten.  There's three groups of people here. You have celiac disease, you have a genetic predisposition. You're never going to be able to handle it. Horrible for a gluten. Then there's other people who just are more sensitive. Their system's more sensitive and it gets turned on. And those depended usually. And so if you're eating less you might not even realize that it was gluten.  I'm one of those people. I'm sensitive to wheat. I never even realized it because I didn't have a ton of wheat in my diet. So I never realized what was happening. I couldn't put it together. There it is. Because I eat it today three days later is when you're having a problem.  Group number two, sensitive, they go from people like me who it's relatively mild, to the Jennifer's of the world who, oh my god, you can't even stand in a room with her when she eats wheat. And then there's the third group of people that they have the iron stomach, and the iron stomach means they can pretty much take everything they're not really sensitive. But what we found is in all of these people, even in the people with the iron stomachs who are not sensitive, it will begin to breakdown their digestive system if they eat enough of it. And so people have to understand you eat too much gluten eventually it will get you. And this is why if you're somebody who you noticed over the years has gotten worst, and worst, and worst, this is how food sensitivities work. And that's what happens to the iron clad people. Gluten will get everybody and especially in this country, where it's genetically modified. And so let's go into the segue about what you know about the food supply here. You talked about traditional versus non-traditional. This is important in you schooling people. Talk about that Jennifer. Jennifer: I guess the issue with the food supply, I have a lot of friends at work in the food industry. One thing that I came to learn as a result of their deciding to start food companies was that our food supply is inundated with wheat. There's wheat everywhere. It's in most factories. They find wheat or contamination of gluten.  By the way, just to be clear with everyone, gluten is not necessarily wheat. It can be other gluten-bearing grains. You have wheat, you have barley, and rye. Oats are an example of a contaminated grain. Spelt is a form of wheat. Farro, einkorn, those are all forms of wheat.  And so unfortunately you can't just pick a product off the shelf that isn't more gluten free and look at the ingredients on the back. Let's just pretend it's nuts for example. You're at the grocery store and you want to pick up a package of nuts. People will see maybe a warning on the back that'll say, "Made in the same facility that contains wheat, eggs, dairy, soy..."  They don't legally have to disclose that information to you. That's something that a company will put on the back of the product. But the reason they do that is because wheat is just everywhere, and so is gluten. And it becomes a problem for people who are not just allergic to wheat itself but also people who are sensitive to gluten, people who have celiac disease and other autoimmune diseases. It's important to understand this is where the knowledge gap really becomes quite apparent with people. Consumers especially don't understand any of this. They think that this was made in a facility that is sterilized and clean so there shouldn't be any risk of gluten being in this because it's rice. Unfortunately if the bag of rice isn't marked gluten free believe it or not there's about a 30% chance that that rice is contaminated with gluten. There was a study done of gluten free grains that were tested for gluten contamination. This was several years ago and they found that about 32% of those grains have gluten in them because they were exposed or contaminated at some point along the way. It's why if you go gluten free and you're still going to eat oats you have to find oats that are certified gluten free. Because the processing that goes on, it's typically on same equipment. The fields are usually, oats and wheat are side by side. So there's a lot of issues with that. And no, Quaker Oats, unless they're marked certified gluten free are not gluten free. I've had friends actually test them with testing kits, they're not gluten free.  So it's important to understand, you think that a sterilized facility is going to eliminate your gluten problem, that's not true. And that's actually not the case of your kitchen either. Because gluten can hide in a number of different areas like cutting boards, toasters, pasta strainers. We think that we just do a once over and it's good. "I'm just going to brush off the cutting board after I cut some bread and I'm going to make my gluten free whatever." That's not how this works. Gluten's not a virus. It's not bacteria. You can't cook it away. You can't just brush things off and say, "It looks clean. I don't see any gluten. There's no crumbs." It actually only takes a very small amount to make most people sick. A small crumb actually is the amount that it takes to make people sick. So it's important to understand the ins and outs not only in your own kitchen but also what happens in the food industry. It forces you essentially to become your own advocate not just for your health when you go to the doctor's office, but additionally when you go to buy food.  And so one thing that I advise people of just to keep things simple, to keep your sanity is to buy foods that happen to be gluten free. There's plenty of healthy gluten free... because if you're sitting here thinking, what can I eat. Gluten's in everything. There's a lot of food that's gluten free. The problem is when it's packaged.  The first thing I always tell people, and Dr. Veronica I'm sure you're a big fan of this. I tell people when you go to the grocery store the first spot you should go is to the wall of green along the one side and fill your cart with that. Don't go to the fruit section. Don't head into the cereal aisle or the packaged fruit area, go to the wall of green and start eating real fruit. Vegetables more so than fruit, but you want to have a variety of different colors in your diet. Those items are all gluten free naturally. You can have poultry, you can have fish, you can have beef, you can have all sorts of meats, eggs. Most dairy, you just have to be kind of careful with yogurts and stuff that's, again, very processed. And nuts, seeds, legumes, and there are gluten free grains. There's plenty of them out there. There are plenty of gluten free products as well. It's just important that you look for a gluten free label. If you're a celiac you should look for certified gluten free because there is always that issue that nobody's regulating the gluten free claim that is made on packaged products. It's required by the FDA that a product test under a specific threshold in order to qualify as gluten free, and that threshold's 20 parts per million. That said unless the FDA gets enough complaints that people have gotten sick, which is what happened with Cheerios, they don't do anything. They're not randomly going and testing the company or saying, "Hey, are you checking where your ingredients came from?"  That's why certified gluten free is always better because there's a protocol in place. They're actually testing those products to be 10 parts per million, sometimes five, sometimes three parts per million. They do it regularly. They check the batches. They find out if the raw ingredients are gluten free. They store them in a particular manner that makes sure that there's no cross circulation of air, believe it or not.  Because think about it, a flower floats through the air that doesn't contaminate the ingredients, it doesn't contaminate the equipment. And that if it is processed, and I would tell people don't flip out if something is made on the same equipment as other things that are made with wheat because if it's certified gluten free they, number one, have to make sure that the equipment is really cleaned appropriately. And number two, they're testing the batches. There's accountability there's all that stuff. And yes, every once in a while there's a recall. It's not often but as with anything in life. So that's why you want to focus your diet around real food. And if you want to indulge in a gluten free food product once in a while that's alright. It's not the end of the world. But I believe that real food is the best way to go. Plus, if you've been sick for a long time you want to get the most bang for your buck with nutrition. And frankly there's a lot more nutrition in real food than there is in something like processed rice bar. Dr. Veronica: Okay. Let's talk about you have particular tips that I think are just excellent for people to think about. You ran over some of those tips as you were talking but let's go through the few pointers that you like to tell people, when you're going gluten free here are some tips that I want you to think about ahead of time. Not just looking at the gluten, you've talked about the certified versus the not certified rate. What other tips do you tell people when they're going gluten free? Jennifer: My number one rule that goes with that is don't be a food detective. You're not Food Babe. I know everybody's like, Food Babe, she helped us find yoga mat material in our Subway sandwiches. That's all well and good but you can't find gluten in your food. I'm sorry. It does not work. You can't scan an ingredients list... Dr. Veronica: I'm in multiple of these very large gluten free Facebook groups and I cannot tell you, it angers me so much that people keep posting up pictures of the product with the ingredients and they're like, "Do you think this is safe?" I'm like, "I'm sorry. Do any of us work for these companies? I don't know what's in this. I don't know how it was processed. I don't know anything." Maybe the garlic was contaminated with gluten. Maybe the pasta sauce was contaminated with gluten because of [Unintelligible 00:32:11]  Dr. Veronica: I really think rule number one, because... Jennifer: Don't be a food detective. Dr. Veronica: You hit a pain point for me with the Facebook groups. You have to realize being a physician who has holistic, real education and clinical experience, real, not just my experience of one, I go into these groups and it's a peer-to-peer. And I see the reason why you're sick is because you're listening to your peer and not somebody who really knows something. Jennifer: Correct. Dr. Veronica: Rule number one should be don't get your advice from Facebook. You need support but you need to invest some time into getting advice from people who really have some knowledge and background. So rule number one is going to be don't get your advice from Facebook. What's the matter with you? Jennifer: Correct, I agree with you. Dr. Veronica: Number one, don't be the food label. Number two, let's go and see some more. Jennifer: Number two, do not buy from bulk bins. Even if you're like, "Oh, but it's rice but it's nuts." You don't know where the spoon was put. You don't know if they were cleaned. You don't know anything. So no bulk bins unless you go into a dedicated gluten free grocery store. You have to swap out your cutting board, any utensils. And yes, if you have bamboo or whatever, anything that's wooden, wood-like has to go. You cannot use it anymore. If you're going to do a toaster you got to get your own that's separate from the other toaster. You can't clean it. There's no way. It's not worth it.  And a pasta strainer is non-negotiable, unless it's one of those really nice ceramic ones where it doesn't have little tiny crevices. I would just say you got to get new ones because you're never going to be able to clean all those little nooks and crannies if it's like a wire or even a plastic one. As far as condiments are concerned you have to have your own condiment jars. Here's the thing. If you're family is willing to do this with you and get onboard that makes life a whole lot easier, because then you're just buying one of everything and everyone is agreeing within the household to just keep it gluten free. And that's cool and that's usually the easiest and the best way to go. And when everybody goes out they can eat whatever they want. The gluten free person eats gluten free and you can have a hamburger with a bun fine.  But if people are not willing to do that you have to have multiple condiments. You have to have ones that are marked for gluten free only and ones for everybody else. You cannot even share those squeeze bottles because if you actually watch people with squeeze bottles they touch the bread. So those bottles are contaminated so you can't use those. Again, you have to get all new condiments any time the knife goes in new condiments. So it's got to be brand new peanut butter, brand new jam, brand new whatever. And make sure they stay gluten free only. You want to pay attention to body care products and especially lip products. Because ladies, Dr. Veronica, you know that you're eating your lipstick. I eat my lipstick. We all know we're all eating lipstick and it's very common that gluten is added to lipstick to keep the... It's like a binder as you said. It's like glue. It helps hold things together. Dr. Veronica: That's the question about that when you're talking about those products. What should people be looking for on the label to know whether or not it's okay. Because you... Jennifer: You really can't. Dr. Veronica: ...and I can't tell... This is what I tell to people. People say, "What should I buy and how do I know it's good?" I said, "Listen, I don't know. And so I know you don't know." If you think you know that's fine but I can't figure out this so you can't figure out either. What do you tell people? Nobody wants to go like [Unintelligible 00:35:56], so what do you tell people about it? Are there products that are better or...? Jennifer: Yes. There are products and companies that do serve these... We're considered a specialty group, right? Anybody' that's looking for vegan cosmetics, or gluten free cosmetics, or allergen free cosmetics, any of that kind of stuff you're a specialty group. And yes, there are companies that help work with us and are willing to go that extra mile. That means that you really need to do some research. As far as I'm not the best resource for what makeup has gluten free in it but there is somebody who is. I don't know her name but her website is glutenfreemakeupgal.com. And she is constantly reviewing stuff.  I'll use Red Apple Lipstick. They're really good. I apologize. There's a bunch of companies, like I don't even know their names anymore that will send me stuff and I'll use. But I'm mainly concerned with what goes on or around or in my mouth. Anything dental I want to make sure my toothpaste is gluten free. My floss is gluten free. My mouthwash is gluten free. Lipstick, ChapStick, lip balm. I'm not personally so concerned with all the rest of my face like foundation and all that stuff because I don't react to it. Some people have that issue where they do. And so for them it's important to go all out. That said with body care products I do have to use gluten free shampoo because my scalp gets incredibly scaly when it's exposed to gluten. There are a few companies now that do offer really great gluten free body care products, Mineral Fusion is one. There are two companies that have certified their products as gluten free. Jason has a whole line that's certified as does Avalon Organics. They were actually the first two body care products ever to get certified. Dr. Veronica: Alright, I'm familiar with some of those... Jennifer: Yeah, and they're sold at Whole Foods and you can buy them on Amazon if you're not in your Whole Foods. These aren't crazy wackadoo companies. They're major brands. Nature's Gate is another good one. Kiss My Face is another good company as well. There's a lot of companies now that they're offering this.  And you also want to be careful of sunscreen because sunscreen does run down your face. You don't realize if you're rubbing it on who on earth goes to wash their hands after putting on sunscreen? Nobody. Actually I do have a list of gluten free sunscreens on my website that I posted a few weeks ago that I personally called the companies.  I checked the list that were old because everyone was referencing these lists from 2005 and I was like, that seems kind of old. I should call these companies. And I came to find that 85% of those lists were wrong. They weren't correct. I have an updated list of all the companies that I personally contacted, that I spoke to somebody, or I got an email back explaining exactly what they did. That's up on my website. You have to be careful of supplements, over-the-counter drugs, and prescription drugs. So you need to speak, if you are gluten sensitive or you have celiac, you've got to avoid gluten, you have to tell your pharmacist every single time like, "Hey, can't have gluten. Does this have gluten in it?" Remind them because sometimes they'll change the formulary. Sometimes they'll change suppliers. There can be all sorts of problems.  Your doctor's not going to know that you're now gluten sensitive. Dentists actually are a lot better about it than traditional doctors because they're operating in your mouth. And so yes. Gloves are safe. Powdered gloves are okay. I actually called because of my dad, I thought, "Oh my gosh, all those powdered gloves," and I was wearing the powdered gloves, and I thought I was getting gluten on my hands. And it turns out that they're well aware of it. And so it's cornstarch. If you have a corn allergy just FYI, powdered gloves have cornstarch on them. Dr. Veronica: So true. There's a couple of other things that you talk about like being aware of pet treats and things like that. And also if you're gluten free to make sure you do your gluten free cooking first. And so that's a great thing. Remember if you're making multiple meals. But some other type of stuff that's going on out here are for instance going to restaurants and apps and things like that. First, apps, what do you say about apps that help people with a gluten free lifestyle? Jennifer: Apps can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. They are great because they give you options and it helps narrow down your search especially in whatever area you're in, whether it's your local area you're traveling. The downside is that they're crowd sourced. So just like you don't like Facebook groups it's sort of a similar situation that you have all these people who don't know how to dine out, going to restaurants, don't know how to ask the right questions, or just simply don't know what to ask at all.  And then posting up the reviews, saying, "Oh my gosh, that food was amazing. The fries were fantastic." I'll show up to the restaurant and I'll be like, "Do you have a dedicated fryer? Do you have this? Do you use that?" And then I'm like, "That review is completely wrong. The fries aren't safe. Why are these people saying this is safe?" Because they don't know.  You have to take the apps and any reviews with a total grain of salt and do your own homework. And to be honest with you I train clients on how to dine out. Because once you know how to do it it's a lot easier. But it's not as simple as just going and like, "I need gluten free." That's not enough to ensure that you're [Unintelligible 00:41:39]  Dr. Veronica: When you say double and triple check your meal what do you mean by double and triple check your meal? How do you do that? Jennifer: When a waiter comes to your table with your meal you say, "Wow, that looks great. That's gluten free, right?" And then he'll go, "I think it is." "Okay. Could you double check that with the chef? Can you just double check that I got the right plate?"  The thing that's always a concern is that when restaurants don't serve on different plates... Some restaurants like P.F. Chang's have totally different set of plates that identifies your meal. It separates your meal from the other people's meal at the table. Dr. Veronica: I'm glad you mentioned P.F. Chang's because P.F. Chang’s is great at that, and how do I know why? Because I'm very sensitive to soy. Not all but I don't know what P.F. Chang’s is doing. I would go to P.F. Chang’s I love to taste their food. I love it. And I'd get so sick always. I ate at another Chinese restaurant and eat a little bit of soy and I'd be fine. P.F. Chang’s I feel like I was going to die.  So one day everybody decided they were going to P.F. Chang’s. I'm not going to be the party pooper and say I can't go there. I went. I got their menu that was gluten free, soy free, and I was absolutely fine. They obviously know how to do it. Because before I can tell you eat in that same restaurant I feel like we have to stop on the side of the road like you said because I thought I was going to die. I would have those kind of reactions. Jennifer: There's extra preparations that restaurants will go through. That's why people get mad when their food takes so long to come out. I'm like, you know what, I'm getting a safe meal. I don't care if I have to pay a dollar, two dollars, or three dollars extra. If I know that, number one, I'm not going to be running to the bathroom every 10 minutes, which is by the way embarrassing and humiliating depending on who you're out with. And it just feels awful and you want to go home. So it doesn't make dining out fun.  Number two, if it's safe I'd rather eat safe food if it cost me a little bit extra than complain. I just thing we have to look at the bright side of things in life. I think a lot of people get very negative and skeptical, and they nitpick on things that don't really matter. To me it's more important to have safe food even if it means taking an extra five or ten minutes, or that it costs a little bit extra. I'd rather the restaurant go the extra mile. Dr. Veronica: We mentioned P.F. Chang’s particularly because we have both found whatever they're doing to keep people safe is working. In your experience have you found any other restaurant names that you know that you feel also have a really good protocol to keep people safe, or is it just restaurant to restaurant? Because I found P.F. Chang’s to be in the different ones, they seem to know how to do it. Jennifer: There's a protocol in place that restaurants as a chain will create. Some are certified by consultants to be able to handle gluten free diners like you and I. There's a program through Beyond Celiac. They were formerly called the National Foundation for Celiac Awareness. They have a program called Great Kitchens. And they train restaurants on how to handle gluten and such in the kitchen so that we will get safe food.  In the Philadelphia area The Couch Tomato is a great restaurant to go to. They've been trained. They proudly put emblem of the The Great Kitchen seal because they have to go through a process and keep getting that updated and renewed every so often. They're great. There are some chains that are pretty good about it. I know Maggiano's is really great about it. Dr. Veronica: Oh really? Okay. Jennifer: Seriously, go on a gluten free app like Find Me Gluten Free and start checking things out. They'll usually be marked. They'll tell you if they've gone through The Great Kitchen Program. Let me just give you one quick example. There's a restaurant in Philadelphia called Sazon. They're amazing. It's a Venezuelan restaurant. They're certified gluten free through the The Great Kitchen Program. I thought that because I was ordering something off the menu, this is a while back and it was marked in the gluten free section that it was automatically gluten free. And I didn't have to tell them that I was gluten free. It turns out that what I ordered was fried in a shared fryer. That was the lesson to me, that if you're gluten free no matter where you eat you have to tell them upfront. Even if you see it's marked gluten free next to it, a kitchen has to go an extra mile when they know that you need to be gluten free. The responsibility is on to communicate that clearly, not just to pick something that looks good and call it a day and hope for the best. They're not mind readers.  That was just [Unintelligible 00:46:35] and I've shared that with clients ever since then is to be very clear, be very upfront. The best thing to do is make reservations. Tell the person who takes the reservation, "Hey, by the way we have somebody in our party or I'm in the party and I'm gluten free." Let them know upfront. Try not to dine out at the prime times. Don't go to lunch at noon. Go at 11:45 when they're not busy. Then you're going to get more attention and they're not going to be a rush in the back.  Or if you go out to dinner, depending on where you are just don't go at the prime time. Make a reservation when you can. Be very clear with the waiter upfront. Ask for help if you need it. Talk to the chef if need be. And if you're really just uncomfortable then thank them so much for trying to help you but say, "I'm not comfortable eating this." It is what it is. But there's a lot more restaurants out there that are trying to cater to dietary needs than they were three years ago especially depending on where you live. But again, I don't have any issues traveling anywhere. I traveled on a book tour and I was okay. You can go in any grocery store and find plenty of gluten free food even if they don't have a gluten free section, because what, the whole produce section is gluten free. And so I don't want people to leave this conversation thinking this is like massively hard. So I guess it's like becoming a parent, you got to figure it out. And to be honest with you, it shouldn't take you more than two to three months to get this down. If you don't have the time to do the research then you need to go get help and you need to ask somebody to help you that way you can get it done. Because the longer you expose yourself to gluten the leakier your gut will be. So take it back full circle.  The leakier your gut will be that unfortunately increase your risk as you share Dr. Veronica of increased food sensitivity. So increased reactions, increased being sick, increased autoimmunity, all sorts of things. It's not like, "Oh I ate gluten in this one. I'll wake up tomorrow and be fine." No, it is a process that happens through your body over a series of days, weeks, months. So no one exposure is not just like, "Oops, that was this one meal and now I'm fine." Not like that. Learn how to do it right the first time is the most efficient way and you're going to get better faster. Dr. Veronica: When we talk about doing it right I'm going to tell you from my perspective as a physician and doing coaching, very high level health coaching where I'm helping people with strategic eating and targeted supplement, what is doing it right to me look like?  First of all as Jennifer pointed out, going to somebody who knows how to ferret out the diagnosis in the first place or what's going on or the sensitivity in the first place. This doesn't happen in regular doctor's offices. It just doesn't happen at regular doctor offices. Realize it, deal with it, get over it. [Unintelligible 00:49:36] you're going to have to make an investment of both time and money to find somebody who knows what they're doing.  Why do I say the investment of time? Because people who know about this are just not around every corner so you may have to travel. They invest enough money because those of us who do this realize that insurance is not friendly to anybody who has these issues. And so therefore we don't deal with insurance because they just make life more of a headache and say no, no, no. So upfront instead of dealing with insurances all day we say, "Here's what it's going to be. Here's what we're going to get. And we move in life." So you're going to have to make some type of financial investment. So understand I just upfront want people to know that, if you're not willing to make the investment... First of all you got to make the investment in good quality food. So if you're willing to make the investment in good quality food then you're going to stay sick. That's just the bottom line.  But then expanding your team, so what else does the team look like? Once I've said, "Hey, this is what you're sensitive to and you need to figure out how to do it." And I give you the initial coaching and some initial background. And I've sent you to the computer with every day email about your first day it's been gluten free. And here's your little manual which is... Most doctors you realize they're not doing it on this level. Then you have to find somebody to partner with you who's going to help you do it even better level. And those are people like Jennifer. That's why I say we got to have somebody here to start on the path.  But most of the time a lot of practitioners will say, "You have this. Don't eat this." And then they don't tell you how to do it. And so when I do coaching, which is different than just giving out a diagnosis it's, "Here's how you start down the pathway." But then you have to have partners for life.  You said to me, I know you hate these Facebook groups. No, I don't hate Facebook groups. I think they're very entertaining because there's a lot of misinformation on it. So I don't hate them because they make me laugh most of the time. But on the other side, the more serious side I get concerned that people rather than going to experts, true experts who know...  Listen, I'm not an expert. I'm not authority. An expert is somebody who's self-proclaimed. I have no education, training, and experience. I'm an authority, you're an expert. Stop it with the Facebook experts and get people who have real background authority. Jennifer would be one of those people too because she has some real education and training that backs up her personal experience, and now she's worked with a lot of people. Plus she was in there with that seeing real patients.  If I can't say it anymore, where people fail the most, number one secret is you have to have the right team. Jennifer: You do. Dr. Veronica: People fail. You go to university of Google. You have all the pieces, you've done all the reading, you're a cocktail party expert but yet you can't implement it and you're running to the bathroom every other day. Here we are. Now, here's the good piece about this. Jennifer has a gift. She has her free cheat sheet for her favorite gluten free brands. Everybody goes wild because, "I want to eat bread. I love bread." People are addicted to bread. Jennifer: I know. Dr. Veronica: If you're addicted to bread and think you can't go off of it, that's a neurotransmitter hormonal problem and we need to straighten that out. And then that makes your gluten free journey better.  Let me just say it again. If you feel like you can't give up, and I say give up gluten. And you feel like you want to murder me because I told you to get off of gluten. That means your hormones or your neurotransmitters are out of balance and there's ways through strategic heating and targeted supplements getting back in the balance and then you can do it. But then you're going to go eatbettergfbread.com. You get that free gift from Jennifer. Gluten Free School. If you Google just Gluten Free School, Jennifer's going to come up. I was just surfing the web one day and I just found her. And then we found out we're close to each other geographically and that was pretty cool. Jennifer I thank you. I'm sorry that you were sick in the beginning of your life but it's ended up being a blessing for a lot of people. And so for people like me, I can hand them off to you because I don't want to sit around and talk about gluten all day and all night. Go to Jennifer. What you have, talk to Jennifer. Jennifer: There's tons of free, great content on Gluten Free School. I went through the work and I've compiled everything. I keep it up to date. Like I said, I called the sunscreen companies. You don't have to do that. I believe that if I'm going to give out information it's something that I've referenced, that if I'm going to make a claim there's going to be a scientific reference that's based in real evidence to back things up. Not just something like mouse study and say, this is...  No, we've got to look at this from a real science perspective. If we want to be taken seriously as a community then we need to do the diligence behind, ensuring that the information we're providing people is accurate. And I know people are busy. I know that they don't know all this stuff. They don't have time to go get a master’s degree in nutrition. They don't have time to go and just do everything that you've done Dr. Veronica.  And so I think that's the real big piece to this is being willing to get a team together than help you navigate from point A to point B, my goodness think about all the time you save not being sick anymore. Dr. Veronica: Yeah, that's right. We take our knowledge together. I tell people, "Listen, by the time I've gotten to this point in my career I go... My wheels are turning and those are half a million dollar cogs in there and I'm willing to shortcut and give you my half a million dollars of information. You add it all with other people who have that kind of information that really works. And they get results. Jennifer has all these tools to help you get results in your life. I want to thank you for being on the Wellness revolution, that gluten free is not just a weight loss plan, it's not a weight loss plan. It's a way of life for people who have sensitivities. Thank you Jennifer. Jennifer: Thank you so much Dr. Veronica for having me. I really appreciate it. Female VO: Thank you for listening to the Wellness Revolution Podcast. If you want to hear more on how to bring wellness into your life visit drveronica.com. See you all next week. Take care.