Podcasts about Mountain Creek

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Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CamelbackOwned by: EPR Properties, managed by Peregrine Hospitality (formerly KSL Resorts)Located in: Tannersville, PennsylvaniaYear founded: 1963Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Shawnee Mountain (:24), Jack Frost (:26), Big Boulder (:27), Skytop Lodge (:29), Saw Creek (:37), Blue Mountain (:41), Pocono Ranchlands (:43), Montage (:44), Hideout (:51), Elk Mountain (1:05), Bear Creek (1:09), Ski Big Bear (1:16)Base elevation: 1,252 feetSummit elevation: 2,079 feetVertical drop: 827 feetSkiable Acres: 166Average annual snowfall: 50 inchesTrail count: 45, with three new trails for 2026-27 (not on the map below, but discussed on the podcast)Lift count: 12 (1 high-speed six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Camelback's lift fleet)For reference:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:37.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Wednesday, September 16th, 2026, and I've got a really good show for you today.00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:45.000Stuart Winchester: we're going to talk some Pennsylvania skiing. And Pennsylvania skiing is a really interesting thing. As I travel around the country.00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:56.000Stuart Winchester: and ski at all these different places in the Midwest, and out West, and in New England, and in the Mid-Atlantic. Uh, and as I talk to folks who… who don't ski that much, or only ski at the big mountains.00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:05.000Stuart Winchester: I'll often bring up some experience I had at a Pennsylvania ski area. Pennsylvania has quite a few ski areas as 21.00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:20.000Stuart Winchester: public chairlift-served ski areas, and it does 2.6 million skier visits on average per year. That is more than any state except for Colorado, California, Utah, Vermont, and New York.00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.000Stuart Winchester: It's more than Washington, it's more than Oregon, it's more than Montana, it's more than New.00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:39.000Stuart Winchester: So, Pennsylvania is a really important ski state, which is probably why Vail Resorts owns 8 ski areas there, because it is really close to a lot of population centers. In western PA, you have Pittsburgh.00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: and Seven Springs, and Laurel, and Hidden Valley, and then you have Philadelphia on the east side, and you can also draw up from Baltimore and D.C. for Round Top and Whitetail. And uh…00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.000Stuart Winchester: And Jack Frost's Big Boulder up in the Poconos. So…00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: Vail has a big presence there.00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:15.000Stuart Winchester: Icon has a presence there with Camelback and Blue Mountain. Uh, and then Indy Pass just signed their 8th ski area in Pennsylvania with Spring Mountain, uh, down near Philadelphia. So, so it's, it's a place where a lot of skiers start.00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.000Stuart Winchester: And it's a little bit of a funny place to ski, because…00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: it tends to have an outsized number of novice skiers, which is great. They're very good at doing that. Uh, but it can make it a little chaotic.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: And the lift lines can get a little crazy, and people are all over the hill, and sometimes they're walking down the hill because they're frustrated and they're giving up.00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and…00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.000Stuart Winchester: You take that as your baseline in Pennsylvania.00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.000Stuart Winchester: And you had any sort of complications.00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:54.000Stuart Winchester: And things get out of hand really quickly. And in general.00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:00.000Stuart Winchester: For that reason, the ski areas that have survived in Pennsylvania.00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:07.000Stuart Winchester: are among the best operators in the world, and I would put that up against anyone.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: It's a very, very challenging environment, not only because you have a high number of novice skiers.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but also because you have…00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:31.000Stuart Winchester: not a ton of snow, sometimes in the west part of the state, where there's higher elevation, they do get a lot of snow, but… but not as a rule, you couldn't count on it for natural snow. Uh, you get a lot of rain, you get a lot of warm-ups.00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and… and you, in general, have to rely on…00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:42.000Stuart Winchester: a very short season, generally mid-December-ish to mid-March-ish.00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiers there…00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: They're they're accustomed to a pretty high standard, so.00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:57.000Stuart Winchester: So when things do get out of control, uh…00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: They really rebelled, and they really noticed. So, a couple years ago, this is what happened at Camelback. So, Camelback…00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I don't generally do ops stories, uh…00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.000Stuart Winchester: ski area didn't groom this run, or they haven't opened this lift, or, uh, you know, they usually let this bump up, but they don't, or, or…00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:27.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they… they are trying to save money, or they're being cheap. I generally don't bother with those, even though I get a lot of messages.00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: Complaining about things like that, because there's almost always a pretty good reason.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and it's almost always temporary, and it's really not worth the effort.00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: to write the story if I'm just writing about, you know, why Stratton or Mount Snow or Magic Mountain didn't open a certain lift on a certain day.00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's, it's a lot to track down and it's a lot of, uh, this person said this and the other person said that. It's just not the kind of thing that I'm want to cover with the storm, right? I want to do bigger stories. I want to do trend stories. I want to look at the culture and evolution of skiing.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the passes, and all the infrastructure, and all the fun stuff. So I don't generally cover the day-to-day stuff, just because…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:18.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that remain in 2026 are, for the most part, run by really good operators.00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it… because… and they've survived. Most of the bad ski areas that were either mismanaged or were in the wrong places, they went out of business a long time ago, which is why the number of ski areas has been stable for around 25 years now in America.00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: So I but I started to notice.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: several years ago that I was getting an outsized number of complaints around one ski area in particular in the Poconos.00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: And it was Camelback.00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000Stuart Winchester: And Camelback had a long history of being an independent.00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: Really…00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: the way it's been described to me by… by season pass holders, and I've skied…00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: some at Camelback, but I don't have that depth of knowledge of having grown up there.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:20.000Stuart Winchester: That Camelback for a long time, for decades, set the standard on snowmaking, on grooming, on just general maintenance of lifts in the ski area in the Poconos. And that was why they had chosen to ski there all those years.00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: But things had started to fall apart when a new owner showed up in 2019. It was at the time KSL Capital, who was.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: was managing it for EPR Properties, which is the entity that bought it, and they own a bunch of ski areas, EPR Properties, including a bunch owned by Vail, including North Star, and a lot of the old Peak Resorts in Ohio and such.00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.000Stuart Winchester: And KSL Resorts was a division of KSL Capital.00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.000Stuart Winchester: which is a part owner of Altera.00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000Stuart Winchester: But for some reason, Altera, which is very good at running ski resorts.00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: did not…00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:15.000Stuart Winchester: get assigned as the… as the owner of Camelback. And when KSL Resorts purchased Blue Mountain, not in Ontario, the Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania, that's about 45 minutes from Camelback, two years later, in 2021.00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:26.000Stuart Winchester: That ski area also did not fall under Altera's ownership. And it was an odd choice to make, because Altera's really good at running ski areas, and they run…00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mammoth, and Deer Valley, and Steamboat, and Solitude, and Palisades Tahoe, and Stratton, and Sugarbush, and they definitely have.00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.000Stuart Winchester: the institutional knowledge and internal firepower to be able to run these ski areas in the Poconos.00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Blue Mountain…00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000Stuart Winchester: Had the benefit of a long time tenured management team.00:10:47.000 --> 00:11:02.000Stuart Winchester: That kept the place, by all accounts, running pretty well. Camelback, on the other hand, seemed to be falling apart before our eyes, and before the eyes of the loyalist skiers who loved the place so much. And they were really, really concerned, and I started to…00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Because they had put, uh, a management team in place, it seemed.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.000Stuart Winchester: that…00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:22.000Stuart Winchester: was not familiar with the… with the inner workings of a ski area. Uh, I… I hosted Dave Makarski, the former general manager of Kalenbach, on this podcast.00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: and very nice guy. We had a great conversation. Uh, he's not a skier. And, and, you know, sometimes you can be not a skier and run a great ski resort. Uh, look at Bill Stritzler up at Smuggler's Notch.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Bill hasn't skied in years, and he snowboarded for a little bit, but he's not a daily skier. Look at Shawnee.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: that where the owner… that's one of the most modern, nice ski areas in the Poconos, uh, and the owner has not skied in decades. So, so it's not always necessary, uh, but…00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: It does help and it's certainly a benefit. So everyone I talked to, I was, I was gathering all this stuff for a story and I was gonna write about Camelback and, and it, it really seemed like it was the worst run ski area anywhere that I could find based on the amount of feedback I was getting.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: I was gathering all this feedback from all these long-time pass holders, and then they hired a new general manager, and so I scrapped the story, but I still wanted to get it, and by all accounts, Jason Bays, who I'll bring on the podcast in a moment.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:34.000Stuart Winchester: has really done a nice job of turning CamelBak around. So, so let's go to Jason now.00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:16.000Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the Vice President and General Manager of Camelback Ski Area in Pennsylvania.00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:26.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback runs six chairlifts, or maybe seven. I might have had a typo there. Serving 45 trails on an 827-foot vertical drop.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:41.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Camelback, he was general manager for Great Wolf Resorts around the United States. He also spent time as chief operating officer and general manager of Mountain Creek Ski Area in New Jersey and director of operations.00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: for Jay Peak, Vermont. His very first jobs as a teenager were as a lifeguard and ski instructor at Camelback. Jason Bay is my guest. Jason, welcome to the Storm. Awesome to have you. How you doing today?00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:00.000Jason Bays: Thank you, Stuart. Great to be here. I've been a listener from day one, so excited to join you.00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: I love that. I'm so hyped to hear that. I know I started with a little Northeast focus. You know, you're the… you probably know this already, but you're the second straight guest I've had on. There was a Mountain Creek alum, Chris Haggerty, on yesterday. Are you acquainted with Chris?00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.000Jason Bays: Yeah, Chris and I worked together, um, back in our days at Mountain Creek, great guy.00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm not sure, I'm sure you're aware I'm based in New York City and Mountain Creek is one of my go-tos and, and was my home mountain before I started traveling all over the place for the storm. So, so, you know, Jason, I, I think it's awesome that you grew up at Camelback. Tal.00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:41.000Stuart Winchester: your childhood Camelback. What was the kingdom of Camelback like to you, uh, when you were growing up skiing there?00:15:40.000 --> 00:16:03.000Jason Bays: Yeah, look, I, you know, took, I grew up in Pocono Kid, born and raised 10 minutes from the resort. After school ski program was the first, you know, first sort of foray into life at Camelback and was immediately hooked in the summer as a swimming pool and two water slides. I thought that was the most awesome place in the world too.00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:21.000Jason Bays: And my parents thought it was a great babysitting service, you know, relative to that. So it was just an awesome, awesome place to grow up and, you know, be part of the small but mighty ski community that is Tannersville, Pennsylvania, in this area, in the Poconos.00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:39.000Jason Bays: um, you know, when it came to get a first job, uh, there's no place I was, uh, gonna consider other than Camelback. It's where all my friends were, it's where we all hung out all the time, and, um, you know, really just got introduced to, uh, to the sport, and, um, had some freedom. It was the first time I had some freedom, and it was to be at Camelback, so that's.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:56.000Stuart Winchester: So you worked there, and you were part of the machine, so to speak, and I realized you were sort of on the peripheral of the machine, as opposed to in the center of it, as you are now. But, you know, you grew up in the Poconos, and had that experience, and you had this vision of Camelback in your head, right? Then you went off and had a big life, as…00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Jason Bays: Yes.00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: as people do, and you went and worked at all these places that I just mentioned.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: And then you came back to Camelback.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: When you, when you arrived.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: How had the place changed? And I just want to tee this up. I, you know.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:19.000Stuart Winchester: before you came on, I was talking about how I don't generally write operations stories, right? Because it… there's usually a good reason for why a trail is closed, a lift's not running.00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but a few years ago, I started to get an outsized number of complaints about Camelback.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:38.000Stuart Winchester: And so I started to write a story about it, and then when you came along, I shelved it, because honestly, everyone immediately was like, oh, this is so much better. So, you know, how had…00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback changed.00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: when you…00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000Stuart Winchester: Came back to work there.00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:51.000Stuart Winchester: And what were the challenges facing the resort? What did you focus on immediately?00:17:50.000 --> 00:18:08.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I'll just back up to say, you know, just to contextualize, um, from when I was there as a teenager and, um, through college on the ski team, too, I would say that community was a really big word, um, that was used all the time. You, you felt like it was, it was the Camelback community, and there's a really big emphasis on the ski product.00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:28.000Jason Bays: Um, as a ski instructor, like, what we were putting out, how we were doing lessons, how many lessons we could do, and the experience that was surrounding that. And same thing on the water park side. And, you know, I think the, um, you know, some of the observations, um, coming back to Camelback was, um, I think there's a little bit of focus, um, focus direction for, for, like, to focus on the ski product.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:44.000Jason Bays: and focusing on the water park product, and I sort of look at it as, like, a… as Disney World, right? Whereas we fill out… if we do the ski part well, we do the snow tubing part well, we do the water park well, that puts heads in beds, um, versus trying to put heads in beds.00:18:44.000 --> 00:19:01.000Jason Bays: And then have them do the activities. We're leading with an activity front and centered focus. And that means making the strategic investments in the ski product, in our recreational product, and making that the very best that it can be.00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:23.000Jason Bays: back in 2008 when I was here as a teenager, that was all there was. There was no hotel product, right? So the ski product got outsized attention just naturally because it was a 560-acre resort that identified as a ski area and a water park. And I think some of the context that was missing was that while there's been a great evolution of Camelback as a four-season resort.00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:40.000Jason Bays: It's really important that, to me, that each of those business units gets the time and attention that they would deserve if they were stand-alone units, particularly because a cog… it's a cog in the wheel, and that wheel is… it's a flywheel. It needs to… it all needs to turn at once, and so we lead with.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000Jason Bays: the recreational offerings first.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, you mentioned the community, and I wasn't aware…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: that there was such a strong community around Camelback, and I'm not surprised, because most ski areas have that group of folks who, you know, they're retirees, and they boot up at 8am, and they take runs together.00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:14.000Stuart Winchester: But they were really passionate, and the running theme, Jason, in the emails and messages that I got from Camelback locals was that they loved Camelback. It wasn't that they hated Camelback, they hated to complain about Camelback.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: They wanted to love it, but they couldn't. There was there was.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of things they cited, uh, not making snowmaking when it's cold, understaffed grooming, uh, missed lift inspections. I don't know if this is true. This is what people were… they were reaching, I think, for answers. Uh, put it all together, and there was… it was definitely…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: seemed as though the ski product was not the focus. So when you came in, what did you focus on right away and say, okay, this is what we gotta change, you know, we have to cover every trail 100% right away, or whatever it was?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:09.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I think that's, look, I would start, you hit the nail on the head that there's a very passionate skiing community here at Camelback and in the Poconos and it means a lot to people. This is second, third generations that are learning to ski here, bring their families here and be part of this. And to your point, everyone wants to be prideful of Camelback, right?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:24.000Jason Bays: This was the, this was family run for a really long time and, you know, very focused on sort of the, you know, season pass holders renewing year after year.00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:40.000Jason Bays: You know, a couple of things. One is I think that how we authentically tell our story isn't done in a way that is, you know, is done in a way that's authentic. A, bringing back the Camelback Mountain Facebook page that communicated ski related content.00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:22:06.000Jason Bays: Right? I think that, you know, there's only so many things you can say about a hotel room and how exciting it is. Like, we really lead now first with authentically telling the story. Our snow report got a lot more detailed, gave granular information as to what was going on. So, you know, did we have a perfect winter last winter? By all means, no, but we communicated that authentically. And where we messed up, we took.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:23.000Jason Bays: the blame for it, and said, hey, we didn't get this right, and where we were working to improve the experience, we communicated that… communicated that story. So, to me, it started from a communication standpoint, that we were authentic, that we were honest, that we were truthful, and that we were communicating on a medium that.00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:31.000Jason Bays: our guests would see, um, and relate to. So I think a big miss was, I think, admittedly, a big miss was removing the, um, Camelback Mountain.00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:53.000Jason Bays: social media pages, um, and bringing those back were really important so that, um, we could tell the story authentically. I think SKUs really appreciate, um, knowing what's going on, and to your point on, hey, there's sort of this rumor flying or that rumor flying, um, you know, we were able to, uh, sort of hone in and, and tell, tell that story. Secondarily, I think from an infrastructure standpoint.00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:09.000Jason Bays: um, we really needed to make sure that we had, um, the right team in place. And we have an amazingly talented team at Camelback, um, but we did not have key positions filled, um, in certain areas. Um, and so, we bolstered up the snowmaking. Snowmaking team went from.00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000Stuart Winchester: Like, what areas?00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:30.000Jason Bays: you know, 3 to 4 to 30, um, this past winter, um, that makes a big difference, right? Our trail rollout was, um, you know, first to open in the East, uh, for Pennsylvania, um, and, uh, um, and, and focus on the core products. Um, same thing with lift operations. We brought in a really experienced lift, uh, maintenance manager.00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.000Stuart Winchester: Hey!00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:46.000Jason Bays: Um, to our team that really helped, um, support our Lyft, um, uh, operation. Um, decisions on when Lyfts ran and what time they ran, uh, you know, our thought was, let's, um, be more… like, you have to run the Terrain Park Lyft every day.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:06.000Jason Bays: to me, that's a commitment. We make that every day. We say we're running the Glen Lift every day. It services great novice terrain. It services the train park. And so, looking at the operational plan and saying, okay, what are ways that we can give back, you know, and make deposits back to our skiers? And in turn.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:24.000Jason Bays: that builds momentum, right? People talk, and, like, the ski community is so connected, right? It's like, if you do something, like, people find out about it, because they're really, you know, they hear about it. And so, for us, focus on the core business was, um, you know, from a ski standpoint, was really important, and the infrastructure.00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:41.000Jason Bays: to be able to do it. And I would just, lastly, just say I go back to making sure that our team had the resources to do their job. We're supported, we're empowered, collaborative leadership, you know, we sat around the table and said, this is the operating plan, this is what we're going to do for our guests.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:46.000Jason Bays: And then go out and execute it to the best we can.00:24:45.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Jason, I, I, I think you could have run for governor with one of the first things that you did, which was get rid of paid parking. I, I, I don't think that I've ever, uh, heard people happier about anything. Now, now, and let me, let me qualify this, right? I think in, in some instances, paid parking and parking reservations.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.000Stuart Winchester: make sense.00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:18.000Stuart Winchester: you know, super high volume days. Arapahoe Basin, I think, is a model in Colorado where they only charge for certain days and certain times, and they keep backing off which days as they learn when they really need it. Camelback was charging every day.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:36.000Stuart Winchester: All day, you know, a Monday with, you know, 10 people on the mountain, they were charging for it. And, you know, acknowledging that sometimes it's appropriate, I think Camelback got pretty out of hand with it, and when I had Mr. Markowski on the podcast, great guy, we had a great conversation, but he was not backing off that. He said, nope, paid parking.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: we're all in. You said no. So talk about that and how you sold. I'd imagine it was a revenue stream, right? And you had to sell management on that, and I don't know if I'm giving you credit for something someone else did, but talk to us about parking and the evolution there.00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:12.000Jason Bays: Yeah, that was a week one decision from the Camelback team when I got here made from our leadership team at Camelback that everyone was in alignment on our senior leadership team here at the property and myself to remove the paid parking. And I think definitely there's actually you have so many nice pictures behind you.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:30.000Jason Bays: I have a picture of the old paid parking sign behind me there, if you can see it on the corner, and it actually serves to me as a reminder of the guest experience, because someone's put a sticker on that paid parking sign that you probably can't see there, but it says, Ski Camelback, we're not happy until you're not happy.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:48.000Jason Bays: Um, and it's a reminder to, to me and our team, um, that we're here to have fun, and we're here for the guest experience, and we're here to live, live and breathe fun Camelback style. This is not a, um, you know, we want guests to look forward to, to being here. And I think, you know, yes, there was.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:05.000Jason Bays: So obviously we ran a financial model. We didn't just, you know, get rid of paid parking and not assume, you know, that there wasn't some revenue to be recaptured elsewhere with a strategy to do it. But I think more importantly, you know, think about it.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:22.000Jason Bays: a non-busy day, it might even be raining, it's 40 degrees, the last thing you want is someone running around a parking lot telling you, like, hey, I need you to hand over $15, and by the way, then you're gonna schlep your stuff up two different levels of parking, um, you know, that might be even charged higher, and then get to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:38.000Jason Bays: uh, the mountain and go to guest services. You know, I have a 3-year-old. If my wife and I went skiing, that would be an incredible amount of friction, um, just to get to, uh, the front of the mountain. And so I think putting ourselves in the guest lens of saying, is that really what we want the guests to experience?00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:53.000Jason Bays: Um, it's not, and, and it was a burden to everyone at this, you know, you think I'm talking about, we talked to frontline associates too, like, the first thing that they had to tell people was that they had to pay for parking. You just imagine, sort of, the cascading effect that, that, that, uh, that that had, and we said, look, is there.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:09.000Jason Bays: Um, is there a better way? Um, can we run shuttles to these lots and pick people up and bring them to the mountain and make them feel, um, you know, like our valued… like our valued guests? What does that arrival experience look like? Um, you know, that's really what we… what we looked at, and then said, okay.00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:25.000Jason Bays: can we… ultimately, will we drive more volume here? Will more people come because of a better guest experience? And I'll say that I would rather grow the sport, grow the industry. Our team would rather grow the sport and grow the industry than figuring out how to.00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Jason Bays: You know, sort of, you know, run a secondary ancillary business that's not to our core product and what we want our guests to experience here.00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, it's a little counterintuitive, but sometimes, by removing a revenue stream, you get that less-is-more effect. Another example, your season pass, you know, according to my records.00:28:48.000 --> 00:29:04.000Stuart Winchester: Starting in 2020 to ‘21, the season pass was $599 at its early bird price, and it hovered between that and $649 for the next five years. This year, you put it on sale for $399. It's still at that price for unlimited Camelback.00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:20.000Stuart Winchester: That's a great bargain for, uh, for a season pass on the East Coast, and, you know, for the listeners, you are competing with the Epic Pass, which has Jack Frost, Big Boulder, right down the road, a couple exits down I-80, and their Northeast season pass is pretty affordable, and it's a pretty good deal.00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:33.000Stuart Winchester: So… so talk to us about that decision and… and… and how… how that $399 is worth it. You also wrote back, if you want to talk about, uh, the… the triple pack. I thought that was great, and I don't have the price right in front of me, but… but you've really done a lot to… to…00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.000Stuart Winchester: create more of a value experience for that loyal Camelback skier, from my point of view.00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:55.000Jason Bays: Yeah, thank you, and that's definitely the goal. Um, you know, I think our thought process here is let's get more people on Snow, um, and have them have a great experience while they're here. Um, I would love to tell you that there's some master business plan behind this.00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:10.000Jason Bays: But, you know, truly, at the heart of what we do is, let's figure out how to get more people on snow, get them to a spot where they want to come back and learn and be part of it. And guess what I would just share to that is.00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:24.000Jason Bays: you know, we were charging a day ticket in 2025 of $169, um, at its highest point, right? And I would rather have a lifelong… I would rather have one per… I would much rather, I think from business proposition, we would rather have.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:39.000Jason Bays: one person definitely not come and spend $15 to $40 to park and $169 and say, I'm never coming back, versus $399, now they're like, wow, this place is awesome, I'm getting a great value, I bring my family.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000Stuart Winchester: Damn.00:30:39.000 --> 00:31:01.000Jason Bays: I want to come enjoy food and beverage. And hey, by the way, we also have this great snow tubing park and this great water park. And would you like to stay at our hotel when you come with your season pass and enjoy Aquatopia? And we're debuting The Curse of Camelback this fall, right? Which is the Halloween, if you haven't heard, it's a Halloween 13 scare zones. Take a chair, lift up to it.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:24.000Jason Bays: But I say all that to say we've got so many great cross marketing promotional opportunities at Camelback that that really becomes a super compelling business case for us. And I think it's the right thing to do for the sport is grow it, make it more accessible, allow more people to come here and see what we have to offer. I can't tell you how many people I meet, whether it's snow tubing, skiing.00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:41.000Jason Bays: water park, the hotel, whatever they're here for, CBKMA or Adventure Park, they have no idea that the other part exists to, um, the resort. And I'll share that that's been the case even in, like, when I was, uh, at Jay Peak running the water park.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.000Jason Bays: People would come there, and they'd be like.00:31:43.000 --> 00:32:02.000Jason Bays: what is this mountain that is here? And it's Jay Peak, like, one of the most hardcore ski resorts in the world. And there were people that were coming there and were like, I had no idea there was a ski resort here. So, if it's true at Jay Peak, it certainly is true at Camelback, where.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:19.000Jason Bays: we have all these different offerings that people don't know about, maybe necessarily about all of them, so our fundamental business philosophy is make it accessible, make them lifelong, um, skiers and riders, and introduce them to everything that we have to offer here in the Poconos. And I would just argue, when I say Poconos.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:41.000Jason Bays: Like go, like experience Shawnee and experience Jack Frost Big Boulder and experience, you know, the other great ski areas in this region and Mountain Creek and wherever else and get a flavor for it. I think that's, we could use more skiers in the industry and to grow the sport. So for us, that's sort of the long-term business model that we're using.00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, I just looked at the triple ticket, and it looks like $149, and I think that's no blackouts. $199 includes rentals. That's pretty amazing. So, talk about that product, and then you mentioned the $169 peak day ticket. Have you settled on prices yet for 2020?00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:03.000Stuart Winchester: 6, 27. I should have checked your site in advance, but I didn't. So I don't know if you've.00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we have not, uh, posted, uh, day ticket prices for this year. Last year, um, we didn't exceed around $110, um, on a day ticket. Uh, so we kept it, I think, pretty reasonable for, for, for a, for a Pocono offering. Um, triple tickets, massive, um, success, uh, for us.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:37.000Jason Bays: Um, and when we talk about, like, again, getting more people introduced to the sport, you don't necessarily pick up skiing on the first time. Um, you think about that rental product, which we, um, tremendously… whatever we had on the pro forma for that was, uh, blown by by, like.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:53.000Jason Bays: 400% on the triple ticket with rentals. And what I really believe in is that, you know, you become a lifelong skier by getting repetition, not by going once a year. It's really hard to sustain as a skier going once a year.00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:11.000Jason Bays: and saying, oh yeah, that was our trip. We're really trying to create a guest for life and get them to return visit. That's in many ways more important to us than, again, trying to get, like, the highest yield on that one day that they picked. Like, come back and visit our resort and, um, you know, again, the business side to this is.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:28.000Jason Bays: we're cross-marketing across all of our other offerings here that we have on this campus to say, come and visit us again. And again, to us, that's more important than, you know, the highest yield that we can get to. So the triple ticket's really successful. And I think one last thing I would share.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:46.000Jason Bays: a lot of season passes in the market right now, um, the triple ticket's a great opportunity for people to get a couple of days at Camelback, even if they've committed somewhere else, and particularly, you know, our long season, um, there's plenty of time to use it, um, as well, uh, from the, uh, long season that we established from last year.00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Jason, I think that's a really smart way to look at it as…00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: a… creating a habit rather than pulling as much yield as possible. And a lot of the larger operators.00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: get frustrated with me and the rest of the ski media because they don't understand why we focus on that peak price, right? Because the peak lift ticket this year at Beaver Creek is $392, set to be. Probably almost no one will pay that price, but…00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:28.000Stuart Winchester: What it does is it acts as a, a billboard for the rest of the ski industry and especially so, so Camelback for, for people who don't know when you're driving on I 80 I mean, you see it, it looms right over the highway. It is one of the major interstates in America, especially at night. The thing is lit up.00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: And so, chances are, if people think about skiing, and they think about where to go, they're gonna think about the most obvious one, and that's Camelback, and that's why, for many years, it was that, or Seven Springs was the busiest ski area in Pennsylvania, traditionally. So I think that's a really smart way to look at it, because if people show up that one time, and.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: cost them, you know, $500 for 2 people, they're just not gonna come back, and they're not gonna try Shawnee, or… or Blue Mountain, or Jack Frost, or Elk Mountain, or Montage. So, um, I wanna talk about… Jason, I wanna talk about Lyft.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:16.000Stuart Winchester: And… can you see this trail map? This is an old trail map. I mentioned that I know this, so for those watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, you can see this. So there's been a ton of changes, and I want to break all these down with you. The first I want to talk about is, over the past couple years.00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mark Antony and Cleopatra, these two lifts right here, an old triple and an old double, have been removed. Can you talk about why you took those lifts out of service, and if you plan to replace them with anything, or what you planned, or what the rationale was behind it?00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:49.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, that does predate my time here, that they had reached the end of their, um, uh, ability to operate. Um, and so they have, um, both been, um, sort of partially disassembled. Um, there is unfortunately not.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:36:49.000 --> 00:37:05.000Jason Bays: I, by the way, two of my favorite lifts when I was a ski instructor, because you could get right up and not wait in long lines on the weekends, so absolutely realizing and recognizing the capacity that they brought, but no opportunity for us to.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:23.000Jason Bays: um, reinstate those lifts as presently, um, as presently, uh, uh, sort of, um, situated, um, and, and not, not, not able to, uh, um, not able to, uh, rerun them. It will require a, um, new, uh, chairlift to, um, to ultimately replace.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:37.000Jason Bays: those two lifts. It saddens me to share that, but that is, in fact, what has happened there, and I've been very open with our season pass holders about that messaging and the why behind it.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: So, so in fantasy ski resort world, Jason.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: Would you put a new lift here, and what would you put, if you could?00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:04.000Jason Bays: Yeah, absolutely. Um, same thing. We've, uh, we've made clear, uh, with no time, no official time frame to share, um, but certainly, uh, we've, we've, um, had, uh, preliminary conversations, um, about a fixed grip, um, quad that would, uh, would be able to take the place of both of those lifts, uh, and create that.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.000Jason Bays: original redundancy that those two lifts brought to the resort when they were in operation.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be really nice. So, so, so these are gone and I, I have a, a current trail map now. So, um, and, and it's not completely current. We'll discuss the new trails in a moment, but this is the most current posted on your website. So, uh, we go over, these are the lifts that remain and see, uh, yeah, I, I miscounted in my intro, so sorry about that.00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: So this one is Stevenson, and Stevenson was, uh, it's a high-speed quad, uh, for the listeners, and it… it was a real junker. It was always stop, stop, stop, and, you know, it was… it was really… seemed to be falling apart and have a lot of issues. Now, uh, in 2020…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:51.000Stuart Winchester: 5, this year, or 2024, I believe, Camelback, uh, McCarthy, the GM at the time, sent out a letter saying it was due for a…00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Waltz.00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me see what he said… like, a complete modernization of Stevenson. So, so did that happen? And talk to us about Stevenson, and what kind of shape it's in right now.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:20.000Jason Bays: Yeah, great, um, yes, that was a, uh, look, an amazing, um, project that was completed by, uh, by Dave and team, um, to modernize that lift. Um, it has, essentially, Doppelmayr came in and put in an entire new, uh, minus the, uh, minus the, uh, uh, the terminals and the.00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:35.000Jason Bays: Um, uh, and the structure itself, um, essentially all new components, all new electrical, um, uh, wiring components to it, a lot of the things that had plagued it. Um, and last year, uh, it operated 138 days.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Jason Bays: Uh, which for Pennsylvania, uh, that's pretty darn good. I think we recognize it's a workhorse, um, it's key to accessing some really, um, fantastic terrain for us, um, and that modernization project with Doppel… in, um, partnership with Doppelmeyer that was done in the summer and fall of 2025.00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:08.000Jason Bays: um, was, uh, very, uh, so it's all immediate impact, um, with, uh, Stevenson Reliability this past year, and we expect that to, uh, you know, knock on wood, to, uh, to continue going forward. We essentially, again, have a brand new lift, minus the, uh.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.000Jason Bays: Uh, minus the physical pieces.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:26.000Stuart Winchester: That's a really smart way to do it because they are tremendously expensive, these new lifts. And for folks who are watching or listening, this Stevenson is really important because you walk out of this giant hotel that's right here, that's not on the trail map with 400 and some rooms, and that is how you get up the mountain. Otherwise you got to.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:41.000Stuart Winchester: pull your way over, so when that lift is not running or has problems, it's a real big issue. So, the alternative was, over here, Black Bear 6, uh, you replaced an old high-speed quad that was there, and… and I love this Black Bear 6 lift. It is…00:40:41.000 --> 00:41:01.000Stuart Winchester: Freakin' Ferrari, man. I think the price they gave me was something like $12 million that they spent, or maybe it was $10 to put that in. So that's the alternative, right? If you don't just modernize that current lift, you replace it. So, uh, Black Bear is awesome. I love it. It has bubbles. Is it too much? I mean, I know that KSL Now Peregrine had reasons for.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:16.000Stuart Winchester: for putting it in, but what have you learned from a couple of years of having BlackBerry around, which is, again, probably the nicest lift in the state of Pennsylvania and one of the nicest in the Northeast, but maybe a little heavier than what you need for CamelBak, but I don't know, you tell me.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:41.000Jason Bays: Yeah, you know, you know what I would share to that, um, you know, we, we brought it back for scenic chairlift rides this summer, and I mean, it's a massive hit. The summer, summer guests love, uh, the bubbles, they put them down when it's sunny, they put them down, um, probably gets more use in the summer as a bubble lift than the winter, uh, but look, it's, it's nice to, uh, have on the days where, you know, there's some liquid precipitation out here. It certainly happens in the Poconos.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:58.000Jason Bays: um, and, uh, and, and or, um, uh, you know, other, other weather events, it's, it's, it's a nice to have, um, and it certainly, it gets you up in, you know, a little bit over two minutes. Um, it's a smooth ride, it's a great ride. Um, you are not going to get any complaints from me that we have a, um.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.000Jason Bays: bubble, D-line, six-pack, um, in place, uh, and able to operate as our main workhorse lift. Um, and, uh, I think the six-pack versus the quad was absolutely the right, uh, call. Um…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:27.000Jason Bays: from my experience being here before with the Sullivan Express, um, with the four-seater, the six-seater, just the… the added, uh, ability, uh, there is, uh, is… is well worth it. So, uh, we're happy to have that… happy to have that lift. I… I wouldn't, uh… I wouldn't…00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000Jason Bays: We won't be trading it in at this point. Let's put it that way.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: It is a gorgeous machine, and I have to tell you, I'm that weird person who, if there's a line on one lift.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And no line on the lift next to it. Even if it's a slower lift, I'll take the slower lift, because I just would rather not deal with the hassle of the line. So right here, for those who are watching, is the Bailey Double, and this is an old chair lift. It's an old slow double, it runs almost exactly parallel to Black Bear 6, doesn't land quite as high.00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: on the mountain, but functionally, it does about the same thing for you. So I like Bailey, and I was glad to see that not only did you keep it, and it does run, and that was true even under the previous regime, but you got a new gearbox for it, which is a really big deal for a lift like this in several decades. Also, talk about the work you've done on Bailey, and how you hope to use that lift.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000Stuart Winchester: this year to complement Black Bear.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so, um, Bailey Lift…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:32.000Jason Bays: full disclosure, Bailey Lift, Meadows Lift, Raceway Lift, and our season pass holders are very aware of this. Um, unfortunately, uh, we're not, um…00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:41.000Jason Bays: ready for day one of last year, um, or even close. And so, uh, we had to do a lot of, um…00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:57.000Jason Bays: normal PM maintenance, um, throughout the, um, end of fall and into winter to have all of them operational. Um, what I share to that is, um, we will run, just level set here really quickly, we will run all the lifts that we have on this trail map.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:02.000Jason Bays: Um, and take care of them, maintain them, operate them.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Jason Bays: Staff them, everything that you would do to run the extra capacity, we certainly need it. We'd like more capacity, actually. So that being said, Bailey Lift is critical. We got it back online.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:34.000Jason Bays: End of January, it ran for 2 or 3 weekends, and we had a failed gearbox, um, on it, which is really unfortunate. Um, this off-season, uh, we've replaced the gearbox, we've done a full PM over the course of the summer on it, which is…00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:50.000Jason Bays: the, as you, as everyone knows, the ideal time, uh, to be, um, conducting such work, um, so that it is ready on, uh, day one. Um, it is a critical backup lift. We will run it every weekend.00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:07.000Jason Bays: Um, that we're, you know, in season, I would say in the heart of season, we're gonna run it. Won't be shy to not run it. Um, same thing with the Meadows, same thing with the Glen, same thing with the Raceway, which, um, you know, I know that that was, um, certainly chief among the complaints of.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:22.000Jason Bays: locals and guests who were visiting from out of town alike was Lyft availability, Lyft reliability. That was something that we focused as fast as we could on last year, but we're setting ourselves up this year to be.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:39.000Jason Bays: um, very proactive to that, and recognizing the importance of, of each of, uh, uh, you know, each of these. And look, every once in a while, uh, if the, you always want to have, like, Bailey is critical because it's the only other, if there's Black Bear, without Black Bear, it's the only other thing left, right?00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:55.000Jason Bays: Um, and so, uh, you know, I think the, you know, back in the, when I was here, like, every Lyft ran on the weekends. It was Camelback. Um, it was busy, right? Like, everything was going. That's, that's essentially our, our, our philosophy, um, will continue to be our philosophy going forward.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jason, I'll admit, I didn't come to Camelback last season, so I wasn't able to experience it firsthand. I really wanted to come to your May thing, which I'll talk about, I'll get to in a minute, but I had a shoulder surgery, so I wasn't able to do that. But I wasn't only basing my perceptions of C.00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: on locals' reactions. I had skied there myself in recent years, and the lift line management, I have to say.00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: It was…00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: really frustrating from a skier point of view, when you're waiting for the Stevenson lift, and there's a big line, and every chair is going up with one or two people, and this is not peak COVID or anything else, this is several years later.00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:50.000Stuart Winchester: So, you know, and I had a lot of locals tell me, oh, we walk up Sun Bowl because the lift line is just too chaotic. People come from both sides. No, no, again, that was all before. What's your philosophy of lift line management? How have you tried to tame that? And there's always, it's always going to be a little wild and hard in Pennsylvan.00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but they could definitely have been managed better. Is that something that was important to you, that you focused on?00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:15.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we focused on that. We have a new lift operations manager that was hired in November of 2025, who took the bull by the horns. We developed a supervisor team in fairly short order to that as well, to build out a well-rounded team. And then I would just share that our lift attendants.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Jason Bays: All hired locally within the community. And I think that we were fully staffed in LiftOps this year, which was a big, very big win. It starts there, right? A, the people, and then B, the right people.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000Jason Bays: um, on the, uh, on the bus, um, as a catalyst to drive, uh, lift operations forward. Um, and then absolutely, uh, we focused on, uh, line management, queuing, um, we set new, in some cases, new queues. We had, um, uh, supervisors, in many cases, out.00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:04.000Jason Bays: um, putting up chairs, um, and, um, and managing the lift line. We added, once we got that right, and we felt like we were in a good spot, and we, you know, look, I think, admittedly, a couple technology hiccups here and there, it was not a perfect, uh.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:17.000Jason Bays: we didn't, like, on opening day, it wasn't perfect, but, uh, we improved, it was a big focus for our team, and I think when we talk about fundamental ski operation, um, if we just were a ski area, we would absolutely be focusing on.00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:36.000Jason Bays: lift queuing, but we have to do that, like, we have to execute that every day because we are a ski area, um, and that's core to our business, and so that's important. Um, then we added, once we got queuing, uh, uh, correct, we added surprise and delights. Lift, uh, chocolate chip cookies were massively popular.00:48:36.000 --> 00:49:04.000Jason Bays: We handed out over 15,000 chocolate chip cookies this winter at the Stevenson lift line. And so, you know, then it becomes fun, right? Then it's the hospitality side of the business of how do we engage with our guests now that we have full chairs going up for the most part off of the Stevenson and the Black Bear and the Sun Bowl. So we hired extra associates to do that, to surprise and delight, to help our guests.00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Cool.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:20.000Jason Bays: The one other thing I would just share is Sunbowl is a great example. How many people get down to the Sunbowl and have never ridden a lift before? And so you need that extra human touch to be able to help. It's not even just putting people in groups of four. It's just helping them with like, here's where you go to load the lift. Here's what you do.00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:33.000Jason Bays: Um, I think that that investment in our people to provide that service to our guests is very well worth it, and it's the difference between someone having a bad experience getting on a lift and never coming back.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:43.000Jason Bays: or having a great experience, feeling well cared for, and wanting to try again. Um, and so that, that, that was, um, you know, I think that's a core, um, focus for us.00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, one of the ways that I can tell the resort is being run by a skier, in addition to all the things you just said, and your passion for the minutiae of things like lift lines, which I share, is that you're cutting 3 new trails in a resort that's 60 years old, and I love that. So, talk us through these trails, Jason. I'll do my best to trace them.00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: on the trail map. I don't have the updated trail map, I don't know if you've created it yet, but talk us through these three trails.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:25.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so we're really excited. Look, this, you know, came after, you know, the so many guests, new guests that visited us at Camelback this past season. We said, you know what, let's do something fun and exciting. And like, you know, you think about how.00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:43.000Jason Bays: Um, yeah, I just, you know, if someone said, anyone puts in a new trail, uh, the skier in me wants to drive to that resort, no matter how big or small, and be like, alright, like, let's do it. Um, and our team feels, uh, you know, much of the same way. So, um, that being said, uh, we had a lot of natural snowfall this year, so…00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:59.000Jason Bays: I was acutely paying attention to where people were skiing when we had natural snowfall, where they wanted to go, and then, you know, maybe following those lines, too, and seeing what the fun was about. So, my point to all of that is, we said, let's create some, and I think for Camelback, too.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:15.000Jason Bays: it's very, um, you know, we wanted to create something that was sort of unique. I didn't want to just put in, like, regular trails that, A, we don't have a lot of space for regular trails, and B, um, we really wanted to create sort of unique experience. So, right underneath Black Bear, um, in between Sullivan and John Bailey there.00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:30.000Jason Bays: um, there's a, um, there's a chute, um, where the old Alpine Slide used to go. Basculus goes back into Rocket, uh, but underneath there is some really fun rolling terrain. Like, it's, it's because the mountain, the, uh, Alpine Slide.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:54.000Jason Bays: back in the day did had several dips and curves and so we're going to lean into those dips and curves and create something sort of fun that you can get some you know launch some airtime off of if you want or carve a turn over it but it'll have some some really nice terrain variation in a way that most trails at Camelback don't have and they're coming off of an expert trail there so.00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:06.000Jason Bays: um, gives, uh, you know, anyone skiing Asp, Hump, Rocket, um, or Basilisk would be able to reach that trail, um, and, uh, and be able to, uh, just have a little bit more excitement on the way back down.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.000Jason Bays: Um…00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:20.000Jason Bays: Upper Cleopatra there, if you go to the, uh, where the U is, uh, or where Upper is, we're gonna cut a trail through the woods there that's going to end up on the bottom of Big Pocono.00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:31.000Jason Bays: Um, so it's gonna go down and across. So, um, that… um, and I see where your cursor is. If you go to the… where it says Upper on Upper Cleopatra.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, like, here? Or…00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, upper…00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:54.000Jason Bays: So, Big Pocono, that's Uncle B. Yeah, right there. Yep, we're going through there. Yeah, so that's gonna be, that's a narrow blue square. So, you know, I think one of the things that's fun for us is we're gonna create a blue square there. That used to be a trail back in the 60s and 70s, fun fact, when Walter Foger was designing Camelback.00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: Upper… oh, this one. Okay, so you're cutting through here?00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool. Okay.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:09.000Jason Bays: Um, that being said, um, the… actually, it got filled in with pine trees, so it's gonna be really cool, because there's pine trees on both sides. Um, we made it narrow, so we kept the pine trees, um, and so that's gonna be a really fun, um, sort of narrow… I think about, like, the, um.00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool. It's pretty.00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:26.000Jason Bays: the ending of Jay Peak with some of the blues at the very bottom there by Interstate. We're trying to sort of have that, obviously in a much smaller zone, have that same effect, though, where you're feeling like you're really in the trees, and you've got some nice twists and turns to it. It's not terribly steep.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:44.000Jason Bays: Um, two things on that trail. One is, it takes traffic off of Honeymoon Lane, which is a main boulevard, it pushes it onto the Sphinx, which has much more trail capacity, which is great, um, comfortable carrying capacity, and secondarily, um, on weekends, we're gonna have a hot chocolate, um, hut that people can ski up to.00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:52.000Jason Bays: Um, and get shots of hot chocolate, um, as well, so we're excited to, um, uh, to offer that to our guests. We think that'll be really fun.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: That was awesome.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:17.000Jason Bays: And then the Stevenson, it's going to drop on the cliffhanger side and drop down that lift line and go right down into the Faroe there and follow that lift line. Vermont skiing in a very short array but very much Vermont skiing, that's an intimidating drop. Stevenson for those that may not be familiar has a extremely.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.000Stuart Winchester: And it.00:53:58.000 --> 00:53:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:34.000Jason Bays: extremely tight, um, and high, uh, crest of the lift, because the mountain crests, um, really steeply. Well, we're gonna ski that, um, and, uh, and make snow on it, and, uh, and, and, uh, and allow our guests to, uh, um, and allow skiers to, uh, to, to, to test, um, you know, a more narrow.00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:44.000Jason Bays: um, uh, trail up there that has a really great expansive view ov

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I still write long-form newsletters. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 16.Transcript updateFollowing up on yesterday's feedback, there are now two transcripts available for each podcast:* Substack's transcript: This transcript is auto-generated when I upload the podcast file to Substack, which is the platform that hosts stormskiing.com. This one is cool because you can click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Click the “transcript” button above to access. * Zoom's transcript: Zoom automatically generates this transcript as I record. It should be more or less identical to Substack's transcript, but with names attached to each quote block. The downside of this transcript is that you can't teleport to that point in the pod by clicking on the text block, as you can with Substack's. Another downside: the timestamps are off, since I typically start recording prior to the start of the podcast. I'll work on cleaning this up.So until the robots get smarter, we're stuck with two different transcripts. Both are auto-generated, and I don't proofread either one, as that would be the fastest way to make sure my quick-turnaround, up-to-date podcast turns into a slow-turnaround, out-of-date one. My hope is that Substack will soon hire or invent or weld from raw iron a robot that's smart enough to know who's speaking when. I'll just keep following the robots around and using their hyper-intelligence until they decide to kill me.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Tuesday, September 15th, 2026, and I am very excited today to bring you a conversation with the General Manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado, Chris Haggerty. Now, I've never featured Monarch either on the long-form pod or on the short-form pod.00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: There's never really a reason behind that, other than this is just kind of when it happened. If you run an area, a ski area anywhere in America, I do want to talk to you. I've just never had the opportunity to feature Monarch before, so we will talk about Monarch in just a little bit here.00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:27.000Stuart Winchester: Part of the reason why we're talking about Monarch is because they were one of two Western Mountains to this year join Snow Operating's Snow Pass. Now, the Snow Pass, if you missed the news, it works a lot like the Indy Pass or the Mountain Collective Pass, where you get two days each.00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:37.000Stuart Winchester: at a set number of ski areas. In this case, it's planned to be 14 ski areas for the 2026-27 ski season. And…00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:45.000Stuart Winchester: That product went on sale last Tuesday. I had Snow Operating CEO Joe Heschen on the podcast to talk through it with us.00:10:45.000 --> 00:11:01.000Stuart Winchester: Couple days later, I got an email from Snow Operating saying, Hey, guess what? Our first round of Snow Operating and Snow Triple Play, which are two different products, and I'll explain the difference in a moment, sold out. So we're taking it off sale. We're putting it back on sale next Monday, September 21st.00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:13.000Stuart Winchester: at 10 a.m. Eastern. It will be $349.99 for Snowpass, and $184.99 for Snow Triple Play. Still a pretty good deal. Those products at full price.00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:24.000Stuart Winchester: the prices that Snow Partners gave me, and they anticipate selling both products through Christmas Eve, December 24th, just like they did last year with the first season of the Triple Play.00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:40.000Stuart Winchester: They, the final prices they anticipate will be 3 99 99 for snow pass and 1 99 99 for snow triple play. So you get a nice little discount, particularly with the snow pass, $50 off if you buy it in the next round. So let's talk a little bit about the snow pass because.00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: When this product debuted.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:53.000Stuart Winchester: I… I've been saying for years, there's 4 national ski passes, right? There's obviously Epic and Icon, and those have some season pass unlimited tiers at certain mountains.00:11:53.000 --> 00:12:08.000Stuart Winchester: And a limited number of days at other partner mountains. And then you have Indian Mountain Collective, which essentially worked the same way, 2 days at each ski area that is on their roster. Uh, Mountain Collective is more expensive, tends to be your bigger, more high-end resorts, Snowbird, Jackson Hole.00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:23.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Sun Peaks up in Canada. And Indy tended to be the lesser-known ski areas, but still some really dynamite stuff there, and a lot more ski areas. Mountain Collective always has around 30, and Indy is more like 250, not counting their cross-country.00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:36.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas. So, I always thought there was probably room for a fifth national pass, but I wasn't sure, and as time went on, and more and more mountains joined multi-mountain passes.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:37.000Stuart Winchester: I…00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.000Stuart Winchester: I thought, okay, maybe there's not room for a fifth national pass. Maybe everyone who's…00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.000Stuart Winchester: who wants to join a pass has, because I know Indy, uh.00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:58.000Stuart Winchester: Now, I'm not saying they don't have standards, but they'll let just about anybody on the pass just to help them get that exposure and that national marketing. But Snow Operating, the outfit that owns Mountain Creek in New Jersey and the indoor big snow ski area in New Jersey, they launched.00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:15.000Stuart Winchester: their Snow Pass, and it's a pretty good roster. Here, I'm gonna share my screen for those of you watching on video, and if you're not watching on video, don't worry, I'm gonna talk through it. So, here's the Snow Triple Play East roster, and here's the Snow Pass roster. Now, the Snow Pass has 14 ski areas on it.00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.000Stuart Winchester: And you get 2 days at each ski area.00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.000Stuart Winchester: The Snow Triple Play has…00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:27.000Stuart Winchester: 23 total ski areas on it, and you get 3 days total.00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: across all 23 ski areas. That's why it's so much less expensive. The most days you can use at any ski area is 2, so you can't buy this as a 3-pack Force A Gore Mountain, alright? So, that's the first important.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:59.000Stuart Winchester: distinction is that Snow Triple Play is a much more limited basket of days. You also don't want to assume that they have the same roster. Just because something's on Snow Pass doesn't mean it's on Snow Triple Play, and vice versa. Snow Triple Play right now has a pretty…00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:15.000Stuart Winchester: Big roster that I wish was on the, uh, Snow Pass, because it has Jiminy Peak in, uh, Massachusetts, and also Cranmore in New Hampshire, which is jointly owned. It has Platykill up in the New York Catskills.00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:30.000Stuart Winchester: It has all these summit ski areas around Quebec. It has Bromont, one of the great eastern townships ski areas. Uh, so that's Snow Triple Play. Snow Triple Play does not have anything in the west. It's all east. It's all east coast, either eastern Canada or eastern New York.00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Snow Pass has… it's a pretty interesting roster, and it's a great roster for a very particular type of skier. Now, it does have two ski areas in the West, uh, Snow King, which has been controversial, I'm gonna set that aside, and Monarch, which we'll talk about in a moment.00:14:45.000 --> 00:15:00.000Stuart Winchester: The core of the Snow Pass, and the reason why it makes sense, is because of the south to north line of ski areas that it offers. So if you buy the Snow Pass, again, goes back on sale for $349.99 next Monday, September 21st.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: You would get two days each at Bel Air, which is in New York's Catskills.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Gore.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: higher up in the Adirondacks, and Whiteface, which are all owned and run and operated by the state, all fantastic ski areas. So it's 2 days at each of those, that alone would be worth $350.00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Then you add in the fact that you get two days at Mountain Creek, which is right there in New Jersey, uh, two days at the indoor snow dome, big snow American dream. Uh, if you have kids, two days at Butternut and two days at Mount Southington in Connecticut. Uh, Butternut is in Massachusetts. They're both day drive distance from New York City.00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:42.000Stuart Winchester: Let them wander around, let them explore. They're both, uh, especially Butternut. It's very up-to-date, very modern lifts, very, very well-run ski area. So…00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: You have a really great little, you know.00:15:46.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: 5, 6, 7 ski areas that really make sense. Now, Ski Martok doesn't really make sense. It's all the way up in the middle of nowhere in the, in the Atlantic provinces in, in Canada. Uh, and, and Pleasant Mountain makes less sense. It's, it's up in Maine and, uh, harder to get to from, from the folks who would likely buy this as.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:13.000Stuart Winchester: But what you have to ask yourself is, okay, the snow pass, that's a pretty good deal, right? It's $349.99 for 2 days each of 14 mountains. Then you look at Indy.00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.000Stuart Winchester: And Indy Pass is 254.00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:34.000Stuart Winchester: uh, alpine ski areas, and it just went off sale for $429 for the base pass. So, it would be 2 days each at all of these, and the… the plus pass, the ND plus pass, was $469. It had no blackouts. Now, the other thing to know about Snow Triple Play.00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:50.000Stuart Winchester: and snow passes, there are a lot of blackouts, okay? So, a lot of these are holidays, you probably expect that. Uh, you know, here I see Big Snow, Oak Mountain, Plattekill, a lot of holiday blackouts, Butternut holiday blackouts, Gore, uh, Bel Air. Bel Air, though, you want to stop.00:16:50.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Bel Air is blacked out every Saturday and Sunday. That's a big deal, because when do you probably want to go to Bel Air if you're someone skiing around with your little kids? Probably on a Saturday or Sunday. So, you want to be really careful and really look at these, uh, these blackout dates before you pull the trigger.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: on the snow pass. So…00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Stuart Winchester: So if you have a snow pass, I I'm calling it.00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: A national pass, kind of, uh…00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: out of anticipation, right? It's more of a, I think they'll get there, sort of designation, because right now.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: it's not really a national pass, right? You have one small skier in Wyoming, one small skier in Colorado. Is someone who lives in New York's metro really going to travel to Colorado just to ski that because they have a snow pass, right? Because it's not cheap to get up to Colorado.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:56.000Stuart Winchester: And there's a lot of much bigger mountains out there. So… so I think that Snow Pass, much like Indy did when it started in 2019, will grow into a national… a true national pass. Uh, for now, just based on the reputation of the operators, uh, the fact that I think that they will be able to grow this thing, the fact that I…00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:11.000Stuart Winchester: know their relationships with folks all around the country, and how much folks like working with them, I am assuming that this pass will grow up, and if it does, Monarch will be the OG Western partner. So, let's talk more about Monarch now, and I'm gonna bring.00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: Chris Haggerty in.00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: And we will, uh… Chris, how you doing?00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000Chris Haggerty: I'm doing well today, Stuart. How are you?00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: I'm doing great. All right, you passed the sound check, so I'm going to give you an intro here. Joining us now is the general manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado. Monarch has six chairlifts serving 1,017 acres of terrain, including the 377-acre no-name expansion that opened last winter.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:44.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch's 10,727-foot base elevation is the third highest in American skiing.00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Monarch in 2024, he spent 21 years as general manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey. Chris Haggerty is my guest. Chris, welcome to The Storm. Awesome to connect with you. I've really been wanting to spotlight Monarch for a long time now, and I'm so hyped we get to.00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:10.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah. Thanks for having me, and I'm excited to be here and chat Monarch. It's a special place, so excited to share some discussion about it.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: So, the New Jersey to Colorado pipeline is maybe not necessarily a well-trod one, although there are a surprising amount of IntraWest vets working in the ski industry because of its relationship with IntraWest, but talk to us about…00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:40.000Stuart Winchester: Getting to Monarch, and you were taking over for Randy Stroud, super experienced guy, he was retiring, uh, he'd been there 23 years, a decade as GM, and he stayed on, I believe, for, for a year. So, talk to us about going from New Jersey, where they have a lot of snowmaking, because they have to.00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.000Chris Haggerty: Mmhm.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:47.000Stuart Winchester: to Monarch, where they have no snowmaking, and just what that adjustment period was like, and how you settled into the role.00:19:48.000 --> 00:20:07.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, just a quick story is that, you know, as you mentioned, I was at Mountain Creek for a long time, and, you know, really where I found my love for the ski industry, and after college, I had taken a trip out to Colorado and got my first taste of, like.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.000Chris Haggerty: the Rockies, right? So it's always been something in the back of my mind. Um…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:28.000Chris Haggerty: And I ended up stumbling upon Monarch. I hadn't been to Monarch before, and I was like, oh, this place looks pretty cool. It definitely screamed the ski independent. I definitely wanted to.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:50.000Chris Haggerty: you know, if I was going to relocate, wanted to find an area where the resort and the local community both had that kind of just feeling of community and stuff. So a monarch was it. And I was blessed to step in after Randy Stroud, and we shared a season together. So I got to learn a lot of institutional knowledge from him.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, but also bring my viewpoints coming from New Jersey in an area where, you know, we're not…00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:15.000Chris Haggerty: maybe blessed with natural snow. Um, so last year was, like, a challenging winter, and, um, I was ready for it, because I was like, man, 120 inches, like, if you gave me that in New Jersey, we'd be celebrating for years, right? So, um, you know, just kind of a unique perspective, but…00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.000Chris Haggerty: um, definitely happy to be here, and just pumped to keep the Monarch kind of spirit going forward.00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: So you've been there for a couple years, one full year as GM, and one of the… there's been tons of stuff coming out of Monarch, it's amazing for a small ski area, which is why I wanted to get you on. So you recently joined the Snow Pass, one of two Western partners to join the Snow Pass, which gives pass holders.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:54.000Stuart Winchester: Two days at Monarch. I don't think there's blackouts on that, but correct me if I'm wrong now. Now, Multimon Pass has been around for years and almost everybody in Colorado is on either Epic or Icon if they're large and if they're small, a lot of them have joined Indy. So the option has been there for years.00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:00.000Stuart Winchester: Why was it finally time for Monarch to join a multi-mountain pass, and why the snow pass?00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:15.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, two parts there. I think on the, I mentioned it before, we're ski independent as our tagline, right? Part of independence is like the definition is freedom.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.000Chris Haggerty: Right? Like, you make your own choices. You do what you wanna do.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:31.000Chris Haggerty: we've been approached in the past for IndyPass, and, you know, it wasn't right for us because it kind of went against our spirit of being independent. Like, we want to be able to work with who we…00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:43.000Chris Haggerty: who we choose at any given moment, um, and that just isn't something that, um, is available through the Unipass, so… so we've passed on that. Um, we were even approached about it this year. Um…00:22:43.000 --> 00:23:00.000Chris Haggerty: As far as Snowpass goes, they respect that. They're all about, hey, you want to work with XYZ Pass, go for it. And obviously, I've spent some time working with the Snow Partners group.00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000Chris Haggerty: You know, from my perspective, that group is all about, um…00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:17.000Chris Haggerty: you know, rising tides lifts all boats, right? And, um, you know, for me personally, they've opened doors for me, right? And helped me throughout growing in my career, so, um…00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.000Chris Haggerty: We're down.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to share, because you've sort of created your own… I'm sharing my screen now, if you can see that, and hopefully the folks watching can as well, and if you're listening, I'll talk through it. So, Monarch has…00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:46.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:07.000Stuart Winchester: not joined a pass, necessarily, but you've kind of built your own pass, and what I have on the screen right now is a list of Monarch's reciprocals, and it's a pretty amazing pass all in and of itself, so if you buy a Monarch season pass, which I believe now is, what, $6.59, less if you renew.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:24.000Stuart Winchester: It comes with a lot of reciprocal days. Some of the big ones that people probably are really attracted to, 3 days at A-Basin, 3 days at Copper. Now there's blackouts on that, but still, it's freaking Copper Mountain. Uh, 3 days at Purgatory. And then, uh, 3 days each at all of the Mountain Capital Partners-owned skiers, which Purgatory.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.000Chris Haggerty: I'll do that.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Also, Arizona Snowball. And there's a bunch more. I don't want to list them all, given our time constraints here today. But talk about this reciprocal program, because essentially, you're saying you're going to give pass holders of all these mountains.00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.000Chris Haggerty: Sure.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: free visits to Monarch in exchange for your pass holders getting free visits there, so…00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.000Chris Haggerty: Oh.00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:52.000Stuart Winchester: whatever you did or didn't like about IndyPass, it does pay per visit, so what was attractive about.00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.000Chris Haggerty: Just a second.00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: this, and why did it make sense to do these free visit exchanges with other ski areas?00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:15.000Chris Haggerty: We look at it as other skiers are not our competition, right? There's 350 million people roughly in the United States. Less than 5% actually ski or snowboard, right? So there's a lot of people out there that just need to be introduced into the sport.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.000Chris Haggerty: Um…00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:23.000Chris Haggerty: rather than trying to fight for visits between resorts. So… so one of the things is just…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:39.000Chris Haggerty: How do we get more people skiing and snowboarding, which is obviously a huge conversation you could talk about forever. But with this one, it's just like, hey, these are other resorts that are interested in also giving their pass holders as well as ours.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:10.000Chris Haggerty: allow our pass holders to try each out while still knowing that, like most people that have a copper pass, they're not migrating to Monarch because they came here for two days.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:28.000Chris Haggerty: they're bought a Copper Pass for a reason, they love that, and they're like, yeah, if I could get two days over at Monarch, cool. Same thing with our Monarch guests, like, they… they… they love Monarch, they want most of their days to be here, and if we could break it up for them, um, you know, a couple times a year, or they could go to A-Basin and Copper, then.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:37.000Chris Haggerty: That adds a lot of value to them and gives them that flexibility to move around and go where it works for them.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:52.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Monarch is small by Colorado standards, but it always surprised me to see that it actually does have a pseudo national following. And I get emails from people all over the country that say they buy the Monarch Pass because it gives them all those reciprocals and they come out and they like to support the small ski area.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get your take on something here, Chris. I'm going to share my screen again, and I want to share a chart that I made.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so, so this is a chart of Monarch's skier visits since 1997, up to 2024 to 25, right? And I've compiled these from all kinds of different places, and I have a little bit of a gap there. But as you, as you see right here, they've been going steadily up, right?00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, so you were averaging below $200,000 for most of the, of the 2010s, you know, much lower some years, and now you're pretty steadily adding, averaging over $200,000. Now, last year, I don't have your numbers, I'm, I'm sure that they were, uh, pretty bad, but.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:33.000Stuart Winchester: You know, in relation to what your past numbers were.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.000Stuart Winchester: So here's my question.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:48.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch was supposed to be one of the ski areas that got squeezed out by Epic, squeezed out by Icon. That was one of the big worries. Uh, independent ski areas can't compete. We're seeing the opposite, because I've put some things on this timeline.00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:04.000Stuart Winchester: So, for example, 2007, IntraWest buys Steamboat. Uh, 2008, the Epic Pass launches. 2009, Powder buys Copper. Uh, the Mountain Collective launched in 2012. Uh, Mountain Capital Partners bought Purgatory in 2015. Powder bought Eldora the following year.00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Uh In 2017, Alterra combined Steamboat and Winter Park in 2018, they launched the icon pass. Uh And then we had the 20% epic price cut in 2022. So all these things you think, ok, Vale and Alterra putting their mountains on sale. These are big world famous mountains, Steamboat Vale Mountain.00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch must be getting crushed. No, it's not. Why?00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:45.000Chris Haggerty: I think it's a couple of reasons. Number one is we've just stayed true to who we are. And as the population has grown in the front range, like since 2010, Denver and Colorado Springs have grown by about 20%.00:28:45.000 --> 00:29:00.000Chris Haggerty: Right? So there's just more people, um, that are finding Monarch, and they're, they're like, wow, we like this, this is what we want. You know, you also throw in the fact that, um, I-70, for those in Colorado, are pretty familiar with, like, the traffic that is.00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Chris Haggerty: created there on the weekends and it's not for everybody. So thankfully the drive to Monarch currently is a pretty attractive one, a lot less traffic. And I give credit to our ownership group, our current ownership group. They bought the resort in.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Chris Haggerty: 2002. And part of it was, you know, a little bit of a passion project. Right? Like, they had come here and just really liked the vibe at Monarch and and wanted to protect that. And what they've been able to do is, number one, protect it.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:53.000Chris Haggerty: Um, by not selling, you know, to, to one of the larger players, um, to just investing into our, our core, um, like deferred maintenance projects and those types of things, and then being really committed to the no name project, which we talked about and, and making sure timing was right on that and.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:11.000Chris Haggerty: Um, that we were a healthy company before we jumped into that, so we didn't need a lifeline from, you know, someone else. So, um, there's kind of a lot of pieces that go into it. Um, and it's also worth noting that, like, our pass holders, like, and I think this goes to the growth, like, once people find us.00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:25.000Chris Haggerty: Um, our pass holder, uh, renewal rate is about 85% every year. Um, and the industry standard, depending on where you, you know, who you ask, it's somewhere between, like, 55% and 62%.00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:42.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and, and most of the 15% that we lose as we've dug into it is because of, uh, we have a lot of season pass holders from Fort Carson, um, military base outside of Colorado Springs, and they've just moved out of the area, right? So, um, I think our growth is partly due to, like.00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.000Chris Haggerty: Once people come here and they discover it and they love it and they just keep coming back and we're just building upon that.00:30:49.000 --> 00:31:06.000Stuart Winchester: So you have owners that are willing to invest and that's really important. And Randy Stroud, I interviewed him, not on the podcast, but just for an article a couple of years ago. And he told me, and I'm not sure if this ended up being true, but their intention was to pay for the entire no name expansion in cash, including a brand new SkyTrak.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:22.000Stuart Winchester: triple chair, or Doppelmayr, I can't remember what it was offhand, but regardless, it spoke to a very stable operation. Now, meanwhile, you still have some pretty old lifts, some pretty old infrastructure on the front side of the mountain, and recently Monarch's.00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:36.000Stuart Winchester: Master Development Plan was accepted by the U.S. Forest Service, which, for the listeners, just means that they said, okay, we'll let you consider doing these things on a project-by-project basis in the future. I have a lot of questions about the Master Plan, but first.00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to focus on one that you called out, that Monarch Mountain called out in its first blog post announcing acceptance of the Master Plan, and it was about snowmaking. And Dan Torsell, the longtime GM of Ski Cooper, told me a long time ago when he came on this pod that.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:04.000Stuart Winchester: that Ski Cooper and Monarch were the only big lift-surf ski areas in Colorado that don't have snowmaking. I think Silverton is too, but that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. So, uh, you have it in your master development plan.00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: to a sort of rudimentary snowmaking system that would allow you to open early. But, this is a quote from your blog, quote, Before anyone panics when they read about snowmaking, let me assure you that Monarch is committed to remaining 100% all natural.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Snowmaking has been a part of our previous MDPs, Master Development Plan, and we have chosen not to implement it as we truly believe that natural snow provides the best skiing experience. This continues to be the case as snowmaking is in the plan to cover all bases, but we will not implement anything unless Mother Nature gives us no other choice.00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.000Stuart Winchester: Care to expand upon that at all?00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:53.000Chris Haggerty: Definitely. And yeah, and we are committed to that. And I actually, last summer, I spoke in front of some of the locals and pass holders, and when I let them know that we were committed to.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or elaborate.00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:09.000Chris Haggerty: 100% all natural. That was the loudest cheer we got all day. So, like, that's what our, that's what our guests want. That's what we want. Um, as far that, you know, snowmaking has come a long way, and, and it is a necessity for a bunch of resorts.00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:19.000Chris Haggerty: Um, we're not at that point, um, and we're gonna push as far as we can, um, leaning into, like, snow farming and everything else before we ever, um.00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:35.000Chris Haggerty: have snow… have snowmaking. But, you know, in the Master Development Plan, it's in there because, like, part of putting things into that document is because it's a conceptual document. It's, like, it's designed to be a 15-year document. If it's not in there.00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:51.000Chris Haggerty: The Forest Service really doesn't even consider something. So if 15 years from now we're like, we need to put snowmaking in and it's not in there, we'd have some challenges. I will say our base elevation being basically 10,800 feet.00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:02.000Chris Haggerty: has helped us out, right? Like, as weather patterns has changed, and temperatures have rised, and winters are, you know, different every year, um…00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:13.000Chris Haggerty: we've been pretty lucky because of that base elevation, where we're… we are seeing snow, where other resorts are seeing some of that other precipitation falling, right? So, um…00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:30.000Chris Haggerty: you know, and then I mentioned the snow farming, like, we're… we're gonna do everything we can, like, on that side of things, right? And that's all the way from, like, fences strategically placed throughout the mountain, whether they're permanent or temporary, to catch the snow when the winds are coming from whatever direction.00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:47.000Chris Haggerty: And we do early season, we take the snow in the parking lots and we plow it all up and get it into one of the corners and then our groomers take it from there and start to build our base in the base area. So we have some different techniques to try to insulate us as much as possible.00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:53.000Chris Haggerty: And we're going to keep going that way as long as Mother Nature allows us to.00:34:53.000 --> 00:35:09.000Stuart Winchester: So snowmaking, it sounds like, is Monarch's emergency parachute. Meanwhile, there are a lot of big chairlift upgrades outlined on the master development plan. So Monarch has had substantially the same footprint for decades until last season's snowmaking upgrade.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:24.000Stuart Winchester: And like I said before, more and more skier visits, and you were still running, with the exception of the 1999 Pioneer lift, the quad that was put in, with a lot of older double chairs. So Breezeway is a 1968 hall, Garfield is a 1969 hall, Panorama is a 1980 hall.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:40.000Stuart Winchester: Tumbling as a 1981 hall. Those are all doubles. Now they've all gotten new drive terminals. So I understand they're, they're more modern in their actual functioning than, than in their look. However, the capacity is probably not a whole lot more than maybe it would have been. The master development plan proposes.00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Replacing all of these with.00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:54.000Stuart Winchester: is advanced of a lift as a high-speed quad. Now, I realize you wanna… maybe the same reason as somebody… you say high-speed quad because you can always take it down, easier to go down than up, but talk us through…00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:05.000Stuart Winchester: your lift upgrade plan, and whether you think that high speed would be good for Monarch, or if you think that maybe fixed grip is the way you want to stay.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, fixed script is, you know.00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:24.000Chris Haggerty: Well, let me back up. A lot of that is in there because it's got to be in there if we choose to do that. And with no name opening, there's a lot of unknowns as far as, like, how is that going to change skier traffic around the mountain, right?00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:41.000Chris Haggerty: One of the things we worked with the SE group, so they're, you know, a company that helps ski areas, right, with all sorts of development projects, big and small. And one of the things that they do is they do this density analysis, right? And it's a complicated, you know.00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:57.000Chris Haggerty: Analysis that takes on a lot of different data, but basically it's like they look at your uphill capacity based on the speed of the lift, the size of the lift, the length of the trip up, the time, and then what terrain it accesses from that lift.00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:14.000Chris Haggerty: And, like, an optimal score where, like, you have, like, perfect harmony from uphill and downhill is, like, a hundred percent. If you're below that, you're actually putting fewer people up the hill, that the downhill terrain can handle.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:34.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, in our current state, sits at a 56%. So basically, like, when you ski the runs at Monarch, even on our busiest day, because of the capacity that we have at our lifts, like, you have, like, semi-private runs, right? If we were to do all of our lift upgrades in the 2025 MDP.00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:49.000Chris Haggerty: we would actually get to an 84% density analysis. So even still, you wouldn't feel overcrowded on the runs. So knowing that, we're like, wow, well, we don't need to right away push for any kind of high speed lifts.00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and in fact, again, things that our guests like about them is twofold. Number one, it's like…00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:11.000Chris Haggerty: that slow metering from a fixed grip lift just adds, like, this extra time, right? Like, part of why we ski and snowboard is because we like to just disconnect, right, from reality for a little while and, like, be out in nature and, like.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:21.000Chris Haggerty: you know, our guests like taking a step back and slowing things down here, and it feels like things are just moving a little slower. And second, one thing that we feel is like a…00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:36.000Chris Haggerty: a strong differentiator for us is, um, having a fixed grip lift. Our lift operators have to be at, like, the load point, and, um, you know, bumping the chairs and helping our guests on, and.00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000Chris Haggerty: It's this, like, human interaction piece that, like.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:56.000Chris Haggerty: You don't get everywhere else, especially with some of the newer lifts where, you know, it's everything's so automated, um, which has its value, but for us, again, with who Monarch is and taking that step back in time a little bit like that, that face-to-face interaction.00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:14.000Chris Haggerty: like, so many of our reviews are constantly calling out our lift operators, like, oh, yeah, I remember so-and-so, like, he's awesome, he helped me on, or he just said hello, or he remembered what kind of skis I'm wearing, or told me about this secret powder stash, which… another benefit of a slower uphill capacity is, like.00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:23.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, even though it's smaller in size, doesn't get tracked out. Like, you get powder turns at the end of the day on a powder day.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: So the, I'm gonna share my screen to, to talk about this next bit. So those are the lift upgrades that you're proposing. There's also two, and I'm, I, so for those watching.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: On YouTube or stormskiing.com, I have the master development plan, conceptual plan up. There's also two infill lifts. Okay, so there would be this planned NNB lift, which is a redundant lift in the No Name Basin expansion. This is the new lift that opened last year. And then there's this…00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Stuart Winchester: Plan, divide, express. So, again, it's two more lifts on the same footprint. And I didn't see in the master plan, maybe I missed it, that you do have all this cat skiing terrain over here, so…00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.000Stuart Winchester: So, talk us through the logic of putting in more lists to serve the same amount of terrain, and if you've considered.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: moving lift surf skiing into the cat skiing, as Targi did with its peaked mountain expansion a couple of years ago.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:37.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, so no name is actually was a part of our cat skiing terrain. So we did take a little bit of that. That redundant lift out there is just because we'll see what happens, how many people just access the terrain and no name. And if we ever need a second lift there, then.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:55.000Chris Haggerty: um, we'll consider it. As far as further into cat skiing terrain, um, you know, our current MDP outlines our next 15 years, so we're not looking to push any further into that. Um, we also have, um, the Mirkwood terrain, which is a little bit of a hike-to terrain.00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:04.000Chris Haggerty: Um, between, like, the front side and no name, and we get… that's… that's the area we most commonly get asked about a lift, and uh…00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.000Chris Haggerty: I will tell you from my, uh, initial conversations with owners, it's… it's not a, um…00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:27.000Chris Haggerty: the answer isn't no, we're not putting a lift there, it's a expletive no, we're not putting a lift there. Um, we take pride in having, like, being a small mountain, but still offering, like, all these other things, right? Which one being hike to terrain, um, which is pretty cool for…00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.000Chris Haggerty: a small mountain like this. And then that, um…00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:41.000Chris Haggerty: the Divide Express, right, that would get us all the way from the base area to the summit on the front side. Um, that… that is one that we've, you know, had some…00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:55.000Chris Haggerty: serious discussions about, and, um, you know, it probably… number one, it would just, you know, allow guests to not have to take two lifts to get to the… to the summit on the front side. Um, but also, if we…00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:06.000Chris Haggerty: explore, um, summer operations in the future. You know, having a high-speed, you know, detachable lift gives you more flexibility to do that.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:13.000Chris Haggerty: So that kind of, you know, would add into that if we get to that point.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:24.000Stuart Winchester: So let me ask a stupid question, because that's what I'm here for. So Garfield Lyft, as I said, was built in the 60s. Pioneer Lyft came along in 1999. So I would have thought, okay, they cross over each other.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: Because they, they retroactively built Pioneer and didn't realize it. Uh, I would have thought, hey, the master plan is an opportunity to straighten those out so they don't have to cross over each other. Maybe I'm overthinking it and it's not that complicated, but, but talk about this interesting crisscross pattern you have here and, and why that's where Garfield and Pioneer are slated.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: to continue to exist, even if you were to upgrade their lifts.00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:05.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I have the best answer. We do have a proposal to shift the base of the bottom terminal of Pioneer uphill a little bit, just because the terrain is a little more desirable there. And obviously, if we needed to add the Divide Express, we need to open that area up.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.000Chris Haggerty: um…00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:21.000Chris Haggerty: but other than that, right, we just kind of… we like the terrain that they serve right now, we don't really have a better spot, so the lifts crisscrossing wasn't like a, oh man, we need to change this. It wasn't something that we were focused on solving, um, in a way.00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.000Chris Haggerty: I think it's kind of a little cool, I guess.00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: I do like criss-crossing lifts, so I'm glad we're doing this one a video, because every time I bring this up, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Uh, Monarch skier visits have gone up and up, as we said. However, as they've gone up and up, there's still nowhere to stay on the mountain. There never has been. Uh.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:51.000Stuart Winchester: a philosophical choice? Is that just a practical matter of, hey, the Forest Service owns the land at the base? Is it both? Talk us through why there's nowhere to stay at Monarch as a drive ski area only.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, there's a couple of reasons.00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:02.000Chris Haggerty: And, you know, one of them, again, I'll say our pass holders and our guests, like…00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Chris Haggerty: are pretty vocal about not wanting that, right? Like that's what separates Monarch. We're not that resort that has the big base village. And again, that's not to knock those resorts. I think that that's, you know, I've gone to those resorts as a guest. I think it's awesome.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:38.000Chris Haggerty: I think another side of it for us is we're really focused on our community, right? We're a small mountain ski area and there's a small mountain community 15 miles from where we are that has a really cool, the town of Salida has a really cool downtown, a main street.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:52.000Chris Haggerty: Um, with a ton of restaurants, a ton of mom-and-pop-owned shops, right? And, um, you know, we're our largest, uh, driver for winter visits, and, and, you know, um…00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:01.000Chris Haggerty: in the wintertime, and we want to make sure we embrace that community. If we moved a village up onto the mountain, like.00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:16.000Chris Haggerty: Salida is going to suffer. All those guests now are going to stay in the lodging up at Monarch versus in town. And we want to be good community partners and be like, no, here, you guys should be the ones to have lodging. And we live.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:35.000Chris Haggerty: all of us live in the community as well, and we want to see those restaurants, you know, stay active all year round, the mom-and-pop shops, like, you know, thrive. So part of it is just, like, wanting to be a part of something bigger, right, in that larger community, rather than.00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.000Chris Haggerty: moving everything up to… to Monarch.00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: So if Snowpass skiers do decide to come out and visit Monarch, they'll stay in Salida, most likely, and drive up that day. So leave us with this, Chris, because Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners.00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:58.000Stuart Winchester: Said we get so caught up on stats, but stats aren't aren't always the thing and and.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: when you look statistically at Monarch, it's 1,100 vertical feet.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: Lift serve drop. That's 25th in Colorado. Uh, 1017 acres that ranks 17th in Colorado is bigger than Aspen Mountain. I'll point, I'll point out, uh, it's 308 inch average annual snowfall is good, but it's, it's good for ninth best. It has the third highest base, as I said, but the 12th highest summ.00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:28.000Stuart Winchester: It has those older lifts in a state that has 120 high-speed lifts, and there's nowhere to stay on the mountain, so…00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.000Stuart Winchester: I'm just stating those facts, right? So what's your pitch to someone to come.00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: use that snow pass, and try out Monarch.00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, the big one is to start with, we're 100% natural, right?00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:59.000Chris Haggerty: you want natural snow, it is a definitely a different feel, even as good as snowmaking is these days, like, come check it out. And this, and the second part is, um, the people that are at Monarch are a unique group, right? Like, we're, we're.00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:18.000Chris Haggerty: past the characters, whether you work here or you're a guest here. And, um, we're looking out for each other, right? Like, it's not, um, it's not judgmental, like, no matter what you show up wearing or what your ability is, like, we just want everyone here to have a fun day on the mountain.00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:37.000Chris Haggerty: whether you're the extreme person out in the cat skiing terrain, hiking Mirkwood, the Never Ever, or the SnowTuber, which I love SnowTubers, you know, I think that's who we all are at our core. Um, you know, it's just… it's just a cool vibe that you gotta just come check it out, and our track record's saying that.00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.000Chris Haggerty: People love it once they find it. So give it a shot.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:51.000Stuart Winchester: I'm always telling my readers that these old lifts, these hauls, these riblets, they're not gonna be around for a whole lot longer, right? There's still hundreds in operation, but they don't last forever.00:47:51.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: And the best thing you can do to memorialize them, you can't really preserve them forever because they're functional machines, right? But go ride them. And right now, Monarch, along with Lost Trail, is probably the best place in the West to go and ride all Old Hall Liftley. And I understand, again, they've been updated.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:23.000Stuart Winchester: But the aesthetic is similar. So, alright, Chris, look, I gotta take my own advice and get out there and ride those hauls with you this winter. It was really great to talk to you. I really appreciate you coming on. I can't wait to catch up and hopefully make some turns together this winter.00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, thanks a lot for the time and look forward to seeing you out here at Monarch.00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.000Stuart Winchester: All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks so much, Chris.00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you. Bye.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Chris Haggerty, the General Manager of Monarch Mountain. That was really fun, I'm really glad that he came on. Uh, Randy Stroud, just to be clear, the former GM, it's not that he ever didn't want to come on the podcast, it's just that.00:48:47.000 --> 00:49:00.000Stuart Winchester: I covered Monarch in a different way for the story about the expansion. So he was very good to the storm as well. I do want to tell you that today's podcast is brought to you by Profile Search International.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:08.000Stuart Winchester: If you want to find a great leader for your mountain team, I want to introduce you to the pros at Profile Search International.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and they are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:31.000Stuart Winchester: ProfileSearch has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team, which sometimes you don't even know that you need in this era of online everything and big data. You can reach Profile Search.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:59.000Stuart Winchester: Directly at ProfileSearch.com, where you will find their email or phone number. You can also send me a note. I will be happy to connect you directly with this expert team. My email address is skiing at substack.com. Alright, we are going to wrap up today.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:05.000Stuart Winchester: With some reader reaction to yesterday's podcast on…00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:22.000Stuart Winchester: with Midwest skiers, Matt Zabranski, and there wasn't a lot of feedback. I think, number one, because the Midwest doesn't get as much feedback in general, but also because I published this one pretty late, I think I put it out at 8 or 9 at night, and so folks may just have not had a chance.00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.000Stuart Winchester: really process it yet. So…00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000Stuart Winchester: Nell says…00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Midwest Skiers, meaning MidwestSkiers.com, Matthew Zbrensky's site, is a regional treasure. The ride-throughs are so thorough, and what Nell means by that is.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:52.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Midwest Skiers puts up on their YouTube channel a, hey, look, here's the trail map at, say, Trollhagen, Wisconsin. Here's all 32 trails, whatever it is.00:50:52.000 --> 00:51:03.000Stuart Winchester: and then it rides the reach for the GoPro, and tells you about them, and gives you a really specific breakdown, uh, with some great graphs. So the production quality is really, really good. So, I second that now. Really good.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: breakdowns of the ski areas from Midwest Skiers. Eric Morris says, great Midwest content, it'd be great to talk to the Dean of Southern Skiing, Randy Johnson, who wrote Southern Snow, the new guide to winter sports.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:31.000Stuart Winchester: Couldn't agree more, Eric. If you know him, I would love an introduction. I am not acquainted with Mr. Randy Johnson, but I would love to meet him, as the South has certainly been an undercovered region from my point of view, and not on purpose, just because there's…00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:44.000Stuart Winchester: a little different culturally than the rest of the United States from a ski point of view, and I have not sunk as far of roots in there as I would like to, especially since I'm not too far from those ski areas. There was also…00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: We're not getting as much action on the chat, but here's one.00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: question on the chat, and this is not to do with the podcast from yesterday, but I want to talk about it a little. What will it take for Vail Resorts to turn around? That's from Saurabh Jain.00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:06.000Stuart Winchester: And commenter Slappy said, redefine what success looks like and suspend the dividend and stock buyback. Of course, those last two may be non-negotiable.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:24.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not going to get out of my lane and talk too much about dividends and stock buybacks, though I do like stocks and follow that world nominally. It's certainly nothing that I'm an expert to speak on. What Vail needs to do to turn around, I think, is very simple, and I've said this many, many times.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.000Stuart Winchester: And I've written about it.00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: many times, and we've talked about it on the podcast many times, is they need to treat every single ski resort like it's Vail Mountain, and every single guest like they're the President of the United States. They…00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: They need to make sure that.00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: the experience of a lifetime ethos is transferred to any Skiera, whether it's Beaver Creek.00:52:48.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: or it's Mad River, Ohio. And that has not always seemed to be the case since Vail Resorts purchased Peak Resorts in 2019 and sort of doubled the size of its owned resort portfolio within a year's span. Now.00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:08.000Stuart Winchester: Certainly, Vail has recently recommitted to.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:11.000Stuart Winchester: To that sort of quality, and we'll see how that plays out.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: I think…00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe a little more shuffling with the Epic Pass, uh, maybe a higher-priced.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:22.000Stuart Winchester: Full pass to to.00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:37.000Stuart Winchester: help traffic some of the more popular ski areas, and maybe some more options. They do a really good job, actually, with the Epic Regionals, with the Tahoe Local, the Northeast Local, and the Summit County Local. So, I think Vail's done a nice job with that. And I think…00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:45.000Stuart Winchester: From my experience, Vail executives, and I've hosted many of them on this podcast. They're very receptive to criticism.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and they are…00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: Willing to listen and change and evolve. I'm not sure.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:57.000Stuart Winchester: If that always comes through.00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Outside of direct lines of questioning, if that makes sense. So, so the, the owning of mistakes and saying, okay, you know what?00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:19.000Stuart Winchester: we messed up because Paley Peaks was only open 25 days a year in 2021, or whatever it was. There was a year when a lot of its Midwest ski areas were extremely restricted, or the COVID restrictions and everyone else, but the local ski area operators there.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: we're out competing them. Uh, you know, when Vail first bought Wilmot, Wisconsin.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: In 2016, there…00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:38.000Stuart Winchester: their… or maybe that was 2012. They bought Afton Alps, Wilmot, and Mount Brighton in some order, two of them in 2012 and one in 2016. Anyway, there was a great article I read that said.00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:49.000Stuart Winchester: what Wilmot skiers can expect, and Wilmot's a small ski area outside of, well, it's broad, it has a lot of lifts, outside of Wisconsin and Chicago, uh, Milwaukee and Chicago.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: And what they said was, we're gonna bring Western standards to the Midwest, right? And that was very out front. Dale spokespeople were saying that.00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:11.000Stuart Winchester: You never hear them say that anymore, and it's not clear that that is the standard, and I had a very nice time at Wilmot when I went two years ago, and super friendly staff, and all the lifts were running, even though clearly they didn't need to be, because it was a Monday, and hardly anyone was there, so I'm certain they were.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:19.000Stuart Winchester: losing money on that day, and yet they still did their best to provide an experience. I'm just not…00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: It's just not always…00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:31.000Stuart Winchester: super clear throughout the portfolio, particularly in the Lower Midwest, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, uh, in some of the Pennsylvania ski areas, Mid-Atlantic.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: that that this is their operating philosophy. So I think that.00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: I think Vail's better than most…00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: than you would think, scrolling through social media. Uh, in general, I've been to pretty much every Vail resort in North America, other than, I think, the two in Missouri and Paoli Peaks.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:07.000Stuart Winchester: And I generally have a really good time and a positive experience, and I find the staff friendly, and that's a super important thing to me. I love that Vail puts bars on all the lifts. I love that they're focused on safety in general, that they help police speed. As someone who skis with my kids, that's important to me.00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: So I generally have a pretty good experience. I think…00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:29.000Stuart Winchester: there's a little too much gum in the machine, maybe, when it comes to communicating these things and owning and correcting mistakes. So, anyway, with that, I will leave Vel alone for today, and you're probably wondering why I haven't yet covered the new Slate.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:44.000Stuart Winchester: of proposed board members by Oasis Capital for Vail Resorts. I don't want to get too into the weeds on stock stuff, but I do have some thoughts on that. I want to wait till I have a little bit more time to break it down.00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: So I thank you for coming today. I hope you enjoyed that podcast episode.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:58.000Stuart Winchester: If you are not already subscribed to the Storm Skiing newsletter, please click over to stormskiing.com and subscribe.00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:14.000Stuart Winchester: That will come right to your inbox. It is not only podcasts, I do a ton of writing. And if you want to upgrade to a paid subscription to the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, that will give you everything below the paywall, which is a lot of really deep analysis.00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: that I do on the lift service ski industry, particularly in North America, and especially in the United States. Also, if you're a paid subscriber to The Storm at stormskiing.com, that is the only way to interact with the podcast, because I'm only reading comments from the.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:30.000Stuart Winchester: Previous.00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:47.000Stuart Winchester: Day's podcast and only paid subscribers can comment. Only paid subscribers can join the chat, which is the second way that they can interact with the podcast. If you want to rep the storm, we have a swag store. You can buy shirts, hats, et cetera, at stormskiing.myshopify.com.00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:52.000Stuart Winchester: Please follow me on YouTube. YouTube is…00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.000Stuart Winchester: Where we will increasingly.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:02.000Stuart Winchester: It'll be increasingly important to us, and right now, we don't have that many subscribers there. Uh, everything is going there, but it's just not…00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:12.000Stuart Winchester: made it into the cultural fabric of that site just yet, so please follow me at Storm Ski Journal on YouTube. Also, Instagram, which I post on more during the winter season.00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:27.000Stuart Winchester: I will be back tomorrow, or I'm scheduled to be back tomorrow, with, and this is one a lot of people have asked me for, a conversation with the general manager of what I think was perhaps the most improved ski area in the country last year, Camelback.00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:38.000Stuart Winchester: Pennsylvania. If you're rolling your eyes, if you live out west, I encourage you to tune in anyway, because the story of Camelback is a really good story of how do we do things wrong?Stuff referenced in the pod:Monarch's amazing season pass reciprocal network:A full breakdown of Monarch's U.S. Forest Service masterplan:Conversation with Snow Partners' CEO Joe Hession: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment below - I'll respond to some in the next episode. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism./:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:02.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! It is September 8th, 2026, and if you are a Storm regular, you are probably wondering what in the heck is going on here.00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:09.000Stuart Winchester: Today, we are launching an all-new format for the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:22.000Stuart Winchester: It is shorter, it is news-focused, it will be more frequent, and it will publish the same day that I record it in just about every instance.00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.000Stuart Winchester: It's gonna have a lot of different elements. Uh, takes just…00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.000Stuart Winchester: on whatever's happening in the news.00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, let's scrap that and let's start again.00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, starting from the top.00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000Stuart Winchester: 3.00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: Q.00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.000Stuart Winchester: One.00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:59.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 8th, 2026, and I would like to welcome you all to a brand new version of the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, the long-form podcast…00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:09.000Stuart Winchester: has been the default of the Storm Skiing Podcast since I launched in 2019.00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.000Stuart Winchester: Very proud of the Storm Skiing podcast.00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.000Stuart Winchester: We're at episode 227.00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have interviewed the leaders of nearly every large ski area in America, and the leaders of most of the large ski companies in America.00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:29.000Stuart Winchester: But something started to feel a little bit off.00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:35.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I started to think about the kind of podcasts that I consume.00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:44.000Stuart Winchester: And those are mostly, frankly, around Michigan football, uh, which is my other obsession besides ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-s.00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:02.000Stuart Winchester: tend to be much more news-focused. They tend to be much shorter than the Storm Skiing Podcast. They tend to publish the same day that they record them, and they tend to break down current events. For example, I just went to a Michigan football game.00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:21.000Stuart Winchester: on Saturday in Ann Arbor. If you're even remotely a sports fan, you probably saw the controversial ending to that game when Michigan got an extra second added on, and Bryce Underwood, the quarterback, tossed a Hail Mary to win the game when JJ Buchanan, our transfer receiver, came down with the ball.00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:36.000Stuart Winchester: That's never happened in the history of Michigan football, to have a Hail Mary ending that Michigan wins. So, on the way home, it's a 10-hour drive back to New York, my wife and I listened to all the different Michigan podcasts that were breaking down that moment. And I realized that…00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: as much as I like the Storm Skiing Podcast, and as much as a lot of other people like it, I was not really making the kind of podcast that I actually listen to. And that's a problem, because in our current media environment, people have a lot of choice.00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.000Stuart Winchester: They have a lot of of.00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:13.000Stuart Winchester: different things they can give their attention to, and it's hard to get and keep their attention. So, I want to say right off, I am not killing the long-form storm skiing podcast. It will not end with episode 227. In fact, I have about 5 or 6 in the can that I've been sitting on.00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:30.000Stuart Winchester: for this news, and I will release those soon, and my thanks to the folks who participated in those podcasts for their everlasting patience as I got this together. So, I'm still gonna make the Storm Skiing Podcast. The frequency will go from about 45 a year at its peak.00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: It's probably about a dozen a year or so, and sometimes there will just be a time when the long form is the more appropriate form for telling the story of a mountain. If I have someone new on, for example, so for example, I've never had.00:05:47.000 --> 00:06:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the GM or owner of Sierra at Tahoe in California, an important mountain on the podcast. Never had Wolf Creek on the podcast, never had Mount Baker. If I were to get one of those folks, I would want to do a long form, tell the story of the ski area. But it's not always necessary to.00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: Tell the entire story of the ski area and its history and its culture when you just want to talk about a new lift or you just want to talk about the fact that it joined a new pass. So this shorter podcast will be more frequent.00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: It will have different segments, segments with takes when I just talk about what's going on. It will still have interviews, much shorter interviews. Today we have an interview with an awesome guest, Snow Partner CEO Joe Heschen, one of the smartest guys in skiing.00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: But before, Joe and I went on for two hours. This time, we'll be able to condense it down. And then at the end of each episode, my intent.00:06:45.000 --> 00:07:02.000Stuart Winchester: and hope is to have reader interaction, and this will be a feature available only to paid supporters of the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, and you can upgrade to a paid subscription at stormskiing.com anytime. The podcast will be for everyone, as it's always been.00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:18.000Stuart Winchester: But only paid subscribers will be able to interact with the podcast. And the way that they will be able to do that is that they will be able to write a comment on the article that accompanies the newsletter on stormskiing.com.00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: And the next day, I will read some of those comments and react to them as appropriate. And I'll talk a little bit more about that later and why I'm doing it that way. But for now, I want to assure you.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: This podcast is going to come to you the same way your podcasts always have. Now, there is a video version. You can watch that on YouTube, will be our primary channel, as well as Substack, which is where the newsletter is published. There will always, always, always be an audio version.00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: And it will always come to the same places that you have always gotten the podcast. If that's Apple, if that's Spotify, there's some that I don't even know.00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: how the podcast got on there, or why it's on there. There's an RSS feed that spits this out from Substack. That will not change. The storm will be… when you go looking for it, you're going to find the storm.00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: This is something I'm super excited about because I think it will allow me to have a lot more guests a lot more often.00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: there are so many great minds in skiing right now, and I feel like there's a lot of negative sentiment around skiing and the way it's evolving. There's a lot of talk of a duopoly.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.000Stuart Winchester: But from my point of view.00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: there's not a duopoly in a way that is dominating all consumer choice. And the reason I have that point of view is I'm having conversations every single day with smart people.00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:10.000Stuart Winchester: thinking far ahead and doing great things to change skiing in ways that make skiing better, that make skiing access better. People like Joe Hesham, my guest today, people like Eric Mogenson, who runs the Indy Pass, people like John Schaefer, who runs a handful of mountains.00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:28.000Stuart Winchester: in the East, people like Rick Schmitz, who runs three ski areas in the Midwest. Small ski area operators like Tim Meyer at Caber Fay in Michigan, who we'll talk about a little bit later. So, I'm talking to these people all the time, and I'm seeing the independent ski areas are really, for the most part, doing fine. I'm seeing.00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Huge investment. I'm seeing huge innovation and.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: Because of the frequency of the podcast, and because of the laborious nature of turning interviews into written content.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: I don't think that I'm getting that to you in the way that I would like, in, in, in the way that you deserve. I want you to be part of this conversation. I want you to see why I'm so optimistic about skiing right now. I want you to know why I feel that skiing is in its best.00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:05.000Stuart Winchester: place, historically, that it has ever been, at least in America.00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:10.000Stuart Winchester: Now, it certainly has problems, and we will get into those as well.00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: I don't answer to anyone. I don't answer to the operators. I don't have a boss. I answer to my subscribers, and that's it. The only thing I care about is the truth.00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:28.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and my optimism does not come from any desire to have access or anything else. My… my…00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000Stuart Winchester: My content and my commitment to the truth.00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:50.000Stuart Winchester: comes from wanting to deliver a great journalistic product. Uh, and there's gonna be opinion and analysis. You're not always going to agree with what I say, and that's good! I wanna remind people that. That's good. If you agree with everything I say, I have no value. I can tell you that all of my guests.00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.000Stuart Winchester: disagree with things I say, but the reason they keep coming back.00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:03.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I hope they will keep coming back is because I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to work within the bounds of the truth, and I'm not…00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Jumping to these huge accusatory.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:25.000Stuart Winchester: narratives that we see so often with the Mega Passes and with the big consolidators, Vale and Altera. So, I want to give a different perspective, I want to give it more frequently. The newsletter, one more point, the newsletter will stay the same. There will always be written content.00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000Stuart Winchester: I am still a writer with a podcast, not a podcaster with a newsletter, though I kind of have to admit at this point that I am.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: a podcaster, even though that sounds… I don't know, it sounds a little… pretentious, or juvenile, or uh… like I'm…00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:58.000Stuart Winchester: you know, doing this as a side hustle while I drive for Uber, but… but no, this is my full-time job. The Storm is and has been my full-time job for a couple of years. Now, the reason I want to switch to a news-based podcast is for days like today, because today we have.00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000Stuart Winchester: Huge news.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.000Stuart Winchester: One of my favorite ski areas.00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.000Stuart Winchester: One of the best ski areas in the eastern United States.00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, depending on your point of view, maybe one of the best ski areas in the United States.00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:20.000Stuart Winchester: is joining a Malta Mountain Pass for the first time.00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:27.000Stuart Winchester: That is Smuggler's Notch, Vermont. Smuggs is an incredible place.00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:40.000Stuart Winchester: For a lot of reasons. Number one, if you don't live in the East, and you're under the impression that the East is an ice ball, and the vertical drops are short, and the mountains are small.00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:56.000Stuart Winchester: You're wrong. You're just wrong. And there is a snow. There's plenty of big mountains in the east. First of all, there's plenty of good snow pockets in the east. One of the best snow pockets is in northern Vermont, and you have a line of resorts.00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:12.000Stuart Winchester: We call it the spine of the Green Mountains. Starts at Killington Pico, goes up to Sugarbush, which is in Alterra Mountain. Right next door is Mad River Glen, the famous Indy with the single chair. North of that is Bolton Valley, which is on Indy Pass. North of that is Stowe, which is owned by V.00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: On the backside of Stowe is Smuggler's Notch, and then north of that is Jay Peak. Smuggler's Notch joins IndyPass today, and here are the stats.00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:39.000Stuart Winchester: It is a 2610 foot vertical drop that is the fourth tallest in the east. It has one smug says 1060 skiable acres that they claim there's actually more in the woods. If you count the back bowls and some of the secret stashes.00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:54.000Stuart Winchester: Off of the Sterling lift. So that makes it the fourth largest ski area in the east. It is the second snowiest ski area in the east after Jay Peak, which is also an IndyPass partner with 322in of snowfall.00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:10.000Stuart Winchester: On average per winter. Yes, that's a lot. That's those are Vail numbers. Those are Colorado numbers. No, it's not Cottonwoods, but it's deep enough that those ski areas almost always have tree skiing from the beginning.00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:22.000Stuart Winchester: from around Christmas through the end of the season. I've skied Glades at Stowe in April many times. I've done the same at Jay Peak. So, the snow coverage really.00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: comes and it really falls. Mount Mansfield, which is where Stowe is, right next to Smuggs, is the tallest mountain in Vermont, and they have a snow stake there that consistently builds up to around 60 inches or so for the season. So, Smuggs joins Indy Pass.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: today. It is the… and, and, and, and… No Blackouts on Indie Bass Pass, which goes on sale today to the general public, or actually maybe tomorrow it goes on sale, for… $419.00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.000Stuart Winchester: The ND…00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is 469. So I'll give you a few stats here. So Indy with adding smugs, that is the 43rd Alpine lift serve ski area that Indy has added for the 2026 to 2027.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: Winter.00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:30.000Stuart Winchester: That gives them a total. Now, my totals are going to be a little different than Indy's because they're counting cross-country ski areas. And I'm leaving those off. And I also count sometimes two ski areas, as one when they're when they're separate entities. But but they share days.00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy now has 256 ski areas, lift-served alpine downhill ski areas, which get two days each. So they have more than you could possibly use. That includes 148 ski areas in the United States.00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:57.000Stuart Winchester: 32 in Canada, 39 in Europe, and 32 in Japan. You can ski 30% of all ski areas in America on Indy.00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:14.000Stuart Winchester: Now, on the flip side, Indy also had some important losses this winter. They lost, and they're all in the Midwest, and Indy's lost mountains before, and with a roster that big, you're gonna have some turnover. Uh, but the first wave of losses came back.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:24.000Stuart Winchester: in past release season in March, when the three areas owned by Midwest Family Ski Resorts, some of the best operators in the country, uh, they own Lutzen Mountain in Minnesota.00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: one of the largest ski areas in the Midwest, uh, Granite Peak in Wisconsin, which has 3 high-speed lifts, and Snow River, which is really 2 side-by-side ski areas and a nice snow belt in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. They left for Icon Pass.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:53.000Stuart Winchester: Now, there's a little bit of a historical precedent there, because those three ski areas had been on the Max Pass, which had been the immediate predecessor, along with the Rocky Mountain Super Pass, to the Icon Pass. Uh, the…00:16:53.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: Icon Pass, when it debuted in 2018, left off Snow River, Granite Peak, and Lutzen. And I always thought, well, Snow River wasn't a part of Midwest Family at the time, but I always thought that was a mistake. So I'm not surprised to see them go, but those were big drivers of Indy Pass sales.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: Because those are marquee mountains in the Midwest. They also recently lost…00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:34.000Stuart Winchester: Another three mountains run by another great operator in Wisconsin, Little Switzerland, Crystal Ridge, and Nordic Mountain. Now, these are small ski areas. They're feeder ski areas, but they're important ski areas because Rick is a very smart guy. He's very influential.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:50.000Stuart Winchester: And he has a lot of influence in the ski business, including being part of the board of directors of the National Skiers Association. Everyone respects him. They also lost Cabar Fay, one of my favorite mountains in Michigan. It was my pseudo-home mountain when I lived in Michigan as a teenager.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:57.000Stuart Winchester: I have a lot of respect for Tim and Pete Meyer, who run that over there. So, I'll talk a little bit more…00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: about that with Joe, because I think there's going to be some crossover with the snow pass. So, quickly, before we get to our guest, I want to tell you about Profile Search International.00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team?00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let me introduce you to the folks at Profile Search International. They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:48.000Stuart Winchester: They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:18:48.000 --> 00:19:04.000Stuart Winchester: With offices in the US and Canada, Profile Search finds and negotiates with the right leaders for your team. You can reach out to them directly at profilesearch.com or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note and I will connect you directly with their expert team.00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined.00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.000Stuart Winchester: As soon as we get a video.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined today by the founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns and operates the Mountain Creek Outdoor Ski Area and the Big Snow American Dream Indoor Ski Areas in New Jersey. Snow Partners' terrain-based learning program has been used by more than 80 ski resorts worldwide.00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:50.000Stuart Winchester: And the company has rolled out its SnowCloud all-in-one resort management software with at least 15 clients, including Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Last year, the company launched the Snow Triple Play Pass, which was good for 3 days, total across 16 ski areas in eastern North America.00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:01.000Stuart Winchester: Ahead of Winter 2026-27, Triple Play adds 7 additional mountains, for a total of 23, at a price of $179.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: Snow Partners has also launched the Snow Pass, which is loaded with two days each at 14 ski areas for $339.99. My guest to break all this down for us today is a good friend of the Storm Skiing Podcast, Joe Heschen. Joe, welcome back to the storm. Always good to track you down.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:18.000Joe Hession: Thanks.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.000Stuart Winchester: How are you feeling on Snow Pass launch day?00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:36.000Joe Hession: You know, it's launch day for Snow Pass. It's launch day for Mountain Creek Seasons Passes. So winter's in the air. Things are happening. It's really exciting. This is probably my favorite time of year. So thanks for having me on such a special day. Winter's coming.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: I'll do it.00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and it's the first day of the new platform for the Storm. So I wanted to get you on first. I'll admit, I want to do a little bit of a flex because I know you're a hard guy to track down and you're doing a lot of cool, interesting things. I want to start with the Snowpass, Joe, because you came on the podcast last year to talk about Snow Triple Play.00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.000Stuart Winchester: And your launch, and you were pretty…00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:09.000Stuart Winchester: adamant, you know, this is not a pass. I don't want to do a pass. And, you know, we talked about it a lot, and I probably harassed you about it a little bit, and now we have a pass!00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:17.000Stuart Winchester: So, so tell us about that journey. How did, how did we get from TriplePlay to SnowPass, and, and why do you have the two different products?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah. And, and, you know, you might be very responsible for it because you, you pushed it early on of, you know, why, why would this not be a pass? And, you know, originally we were really following the data and the data we were really focused on was 73% of people ski between one and five days.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:50.000Joe Hession: the price point for that, and we were looking at the data for Mountain Creek with our triple play, and saying, you know, there's really not a lot of triple plays for multi-resort. That's kind of a cool, unique concept. So we were really stuck on the data. Obviously, we heard feedback from folks like yourself, and also your other… all your listeners and subscribers, and…00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:50.000 --> 00:22:05.000Joe Hession: And… but then, it was really our past partners. The people that bought the Triple Play were like, if we had this option, we'd be really happy. They hit us that in our post-survey, they said, we really would like this. Um, and then the resorts. We had great partners on the Triple Play program, and…00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:13.000Joe Hession: they came in and said, we would like this as well. So, you know, the model's been done, and we made the leap to do it. So we're really excited about it.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:28.000Stuart Winchester: You have a great network to launch, and I think especially if you live in New York Metro, and I want to talk about — I do want to talk about Triple Play, but let's focus on Snowpass for a minute. The three key mountains here are Bel Air, Gore, and Whiteface.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:43.000Stuart Winchester: These mountains, for those of us who are in the area, we know they're state subsidized. They've gotten a half billion dollars in investment. That's a whole different subject. We're going to leave that alone because the result of that for your pass holders is these are awesome ski areas. Bel Air is essentially a brand new ski area.00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000Stuart Winchester: And if you're in New York Metro, you get two days at Mountain Creek, and you get two days at Big Snow, then there's some little ones. You get up in Connecticut, you have Mount Southington. So you have a really nice network of.00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:10.000Stuart Winchester: 14 ski areas, 12 of them are in the east. Talk about that network, Joe, and how deliberate it was that they kind of worked together to create a compelling pass product.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:27.000Joe Hession: Yeah, that's a great question because that is, you know, we probably look at the world a little differently than people looking at different passes and different programs. And I think you nailed it. Like, you know, with the news last week, you know, sometimes people from Colorado chirp and they, this pass doesn't make sense for me. I'm like, yeah.00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:44.000Joe Hession: Yeah, congratulations. You can read and understand basic logic. So we love our friends in Colorado, we love our friends out west, but this is a pass that's very regional. It makes so much sense if you live in this area and you're planning to have those trips and, and, and you might remember this, but years ago.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:23:44.000 --> 00:24:00.000Joe Hession: at the NSA show, which is the National Ski Association. I was on stage with a bunch of different groups, talking about Epic Pass and ICOM Pass, and this is before we had a Pass product. And I was saying, and I was a little critical too.00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:18.000Joe Hession: you know, listen, I think the high-level past products that exist, which just throw out big numbers, like, you know, 40 of these resorts, these resorts, or 300 resorts, like, it's cool, but the reality is, is I'm really focused on how does someone actually use it? So if we go back to the skier.00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:35.000Joe Hession: and the snowboarder, and how do they actually use this pass? And, you know, back in the day, and I love, you know, the industry is much smaller than people, especially your listeners might realize, like, I have a ton of respect for almost everybody. If anyone's in this business, I respect them, because it's a really hard business.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:51.000Joe Hession: And so for us, I've always looked at it and said these big pass products that are kind of like overwhelming with the options, like how do people actually use them and where does it drive traffic and traffic to the right places at the right time and stuff like that. So we're very deliberate.00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:02.000Joe Hession: very deliberate in, if you live in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Long Island, um, upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania, this is a very compelling pass that not only takes you from the city.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:18.000Joe Hession: Because for us, what's really critical is that kind of warm handshake from, we're teaching a hundred thousand new people a year to ski at Big Snow. Where do they then go to? And obviously we want them to come to Mountain Creek, but I also want them to go to Whiteface and Bel Air and Gore and Platic Hill.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:34.000Joe Hession: Um, because things like that, that's kind of how this industry can work together to take people who are new to the sport, or people who are, maybe have never gone. Maybe they always go to Vermont, and we love Vermont, but maybe this is their chance to go up to Whiteface and realize, oh, wow.00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.000Joe Hession: That's, you know, you can see JP from there, right? So it's kind of it's people don't realize how far north Whiteface is.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a really nice network, and I think it's gonna sell really well. I mean, just even if… even if you just launched.00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: a Bel Air Gore Whiteface pass at that price point, I think it would probably sell really well. Uh, but the reality is you're going up against a very competitive market. So, uh, you look at Epic Pass, not maybe so competitive, you're doing something different, they don't have as many mountains in the market. Indy Pass.00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not even sure if you know this yet, because the embargo literally lifted when we started this at 10 a.m. eastern. A smuggler's notch today announced they are joining the Indy Pass. So the Indy Pass gives you a really nice network of resorts in your neighborhood.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: In New England, it has Waterville Valley, Cannon, Jay Peak, Saddleback, and now Smug, some of the best ski areas in the region. It has ski areas all over New York. That goes on sale to the public.00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:50.000Stuart Winchester: Today or tomorrow, the Indy Pass, they do a fall sale for $419. They have 256 alpine ski areas as of today, including 61 in the western US. They have a big head start, right? They started in 2019, so.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: you're offering a different product, but it works in the same way, right? SnowPass. Uh, little lower price point, $340 as opposed to $419. What's your pitch for someone considering SnowPass or IndyPass?00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:20.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, well, well, first let me hit that because it's, it's, what's interesting is, and, and it's important to kind of explain our background and where we come from. I probably see the world differently than almost everyone involved in this past world. I, I kind of look at it as.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:35.000Joe Hession: you know, the pitch is, if you live in this area and you want to visit the resorts on our pass, it's a no-brainer. Not only that, I don't think we're going to live in a world where there's Epic, Icon, Indy, Snow Pass, Mountain Collective.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:53.000Joe Hession: I think we should be trying to live in a world where we democratize skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and allow them to make choices in their price points where they want to go, vastly different than it is today. I think these programs, um, really exist because lack of good technology.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:08.000Joe Hession: Like, like, basically, we would have reciprocal programs back years ago with, uh, like, Mound Creek and Killington. And to get that to actually make sense to the guests, where they show up, and it's seamless, and the money's able to be traded the right way, wasn't possible years ago.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:24.000Joe Hession: So, for us, you know, and I'll get to the question of what the pitch directly to Indy, but I see the world so dramatically different than IndyPass. I see a world where independent ski resorts should be working with each other.00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:43.000Joe Hession: for the betterment of their guests to share people to different locations that people find interesting. A real-life example is Martok in Nova Scotia and Cape Smoky have a reciprocal program that they're actually allowed to have… they have one pass that's able to work at both places and can split the revenue and funding between it.00:28:43.000 --> 00:29:00.000Joe Hession: between them. They have common ownership. But they're both on SnowCloud. So really, you know, our software platform, SnowCloud, which really operates all the things that is involved with Snowpass and Snow TriplePlay, our real pitch long-term, our real pitch of what we're trying to do with Snowpass.00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Joe Hession: is open up the door to give resort leaders and operators tools where they take out the middleman. And what I mean by the middleman is Wachusett and a resort up in Vermont doesn't need a third party to organize their pass benefits.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Joe Hession: They should be doing it directly themselves, using better technology. So, I am calling for a shift, a big shift, in the way that people think of this, of, let's get away from these big, pillar, clunky things that are these big, like.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:46.000Joe Hession: big, like, kind of ego plays of passes, and let's take skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and let them have direct relationships with the resorts they love, and give these operators great tools to allow that to happen.00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.000Joe Hession: Um, so that that's our long term pitch. Yeah.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:56.000Stuart Winchester: So let me jump in there. I just want to ask now, I want to follow up on that. So are you saying this snow pass, your goal is to…00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.000Stuart Winchester: make it extinct at some point? It's a building block to the next level, is that what you're saying?00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000Joe Hession: You…00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah, what's interesting is Snowpass, we have no upside in Snowpass. So we've been very open and clear about this. And I just want to make sure the goal of Snowpass is secure. We share all of our books openly with all of our resort partners. They can see every transaction, every dollar flow.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:33.000Joe Hession: There's overhead in some of the expenses. They get a clear, like, this is the piece that we do that. We originally said it was estimated at 5%. If it ends up becoming 3%, we'll distribute the rest of that to the resorts. We have no profit margin built into our plan for Snowpass.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:43.000Joe Hession: Snowpass to us is the first step in trying to prove the theory of could we remove the middleman from the equation?00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:58.000Joe Hession: And we applaud the idea that if you're on Snowpass, and let's say that Whiteface wants to now work with Platykill directly, we would celebrate that and see that as a huge win.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Joe Hession: Because we want resorts to collaborate. If people are real fans of skiing and snowboarding, and they've been buying passes for years, and part of it, they know that the beauty of the ski industry is when the ski industry, skiers, snowboarders, the people that operate these resorts, work together.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:26.000Joe Hession: they create beautiful things. So we need to give them tools to work together, and also the ability to work together, because some companies restrict people from being able to work with each other, which goes against the spirit of the whole ski industry in the first place.00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.000Stuart Winchester: So if you were… So let's think of… Let's do a thought experiment here. So let's take some…00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:32.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: some resorts that share your operating software, right? So you have Mountain Creek, so you can do whatever you want with it, and you have big snow. I know that, for example, Greek Peak up in upstate New York uses, it's up near Cornell, sort of central New York for folks who aren't familiar. It would be a great feeder from Mountain Creek because it has.00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: a resort feel, and it's a big mountain, and it has a nice hotel across the street with a water park and everything. So you have, uh, Greek Beak, and then you signed Jackson Hole, right? So would an example be that if you were a…00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek Passholder, you could somehow…00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek could sign a deal with Greek Peak for shorter-term visits and Jackson Hole for longer-term. Is that the goal, and how would that be different from a pass we have now?00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:40.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, yeah, well, because it could be priced exactly to the price, it would make sense to the consumer. Because right now, and remember, when people buy an IndiePass or a pass like that, there's an idea that all these resorts, like, I'm a big fan of IndiePass.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:57.000Joe Hession: Pareto charts, the 80/20 rule. I will guess, not knowing anything about their business, that 80% of the revenue is made up of 20% of the resorts and the visits. I will almost guarantee it because that's how statistics works. So when you have huge numbers, it starts to cloud the efficiency of it, right?00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:17.000Joe Hession: So to me, I look at and say, yeah, so a program where it's like if Mountain Creek went to Greek Peak and said, we want to have a reciprocal program where if someone uses this, it seamlessly just works at the lift. So imagine someone took their Mountain Creek pass, went and rode the lift at Greek Peak and boom, the transaction happened. The guests never even knew it happened.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:32.000Joe Hession: the business relationship worked, and then we shared data to basically say, oh, this is a Mountain Creek and Greek Peak guest. Now you guys can market directly to them and hopefully get them to come for a longer stay next time. That's where I… that's where I would love to have it, and Greek Peak's a great example.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:40.000Joe Hession: We're great partners with them. We love that resort. They've been great early adopters of SnowCloud. We're not allowed to have a reciprocal program with them at Mountain Creek or Big.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:58.000Joe Hession: They're, they're contractly obligated not to work with anyone other than who they work with, which is, which to me is just wild. And I think most people don't realize that that's how it works. And, you know, the last thing we need is, is the middleman kind of inserting themselves into controlling how people operate. It's just.00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:10.000Joe Hession: So… so I would love… I see a future like that. Currently, unfortunately, with a place like Repeat, we're not allowed to work with them. We're… we're… and… and I mean not on Snowpass. We can't have a reciprocal…00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:16.000Joe Hession: We can't give someone a discount if they're a Mountain Creek holder to go to Greek Peak. It's.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and great.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Joe Hession: Less rules. We need less rules.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Greek Peak has worked with IndiePass since 2019. They've been an original partner over there. I want to get to that in a second. You know, I…00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know if I see a post-pass world, because I like a menu, I like the big passes. However, what I think you're describing could solve is the free visit problem.00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: because I know Indian Ski Cooper, for example, had a dust-up a few years ago because Ski Cooper was essentially… India accused him of essentially creating a national pass, and that was probably my fault because I wrote an article that said, hey, look at this secret national pass for 300 bucks in Colorado. Nonetheless, it's a lot of…00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:19.000Stuart Winchester: Free visits and you have mountains like Bogus Basin in, in Idaho that are still giving away a lot of free visits. Now, Bogus is a great business and, and it's doing well and they have a surplus and, and they've evolved great in the past decade or so. Uh, but, but it seems like that could really solve that.00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: free visits problem, where there is some revenue sharing. Is that part of what you're trying to solve here?00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:41.000Joe Hession: 100%. And you see the big players do it, right? Like a big thing about us too is I'm not against anything. I think Indie is fantastic. And it's very important to point this out. I think that is, but I also think Epic and Icon are great.00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Joe Hession: Like, I'll put it this way, operating a small resort here in New Jersey, Mountain Creek, or Big Snow, there are things that Vail does so much better than us that we wish we had the resources they have. Now, with that said, we do things way better than Vail does, and they wish they had the resources.00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:14.000Joe Hession: Or the ability to do what we can do, right? And, you know, there's an old commercial years ago that there was, like, a big boardroom, and the boardroom, they're like, I wonder what the little guys are doing. And then all of a sudden, it showed the people in, like, the startup, and they're like, I wonder what the big guys are doing. So, we're all in the same business, and we're.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:32.000Joe Hession: some of the things they've done to try to cure their own things. They own most of their resorts on their program, so they're gonna do things the way that benefits them, because they own all those resorts together. And they've tried to solve these problems in similar ways, and I think learning from them on that stuff, same thing with Icon is doing similar stuff to that.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.000Joe Hession: Um, but yeah, I think…00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:44.000Joe Hession: that's exactly what we're trying to solve. We're trying to solve… we want resorts to have relationships that make sense to the consumer. Like, for example.00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:00.000Joe Hession: Who is going to go, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll focus on someone else for a minute. Who's gonna, who's gonna go to 40 resorts in a year on a certain pass? Nobody. Nobody. Skiers are smarter than that. No one's doing that. What they're doing, if you buy an Epic or Icon.00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:08.000Joe Hession: in the real world, the conversation goes, um, oh, I live in New York? Great. What pass are my friends buying?00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:24.000Joe Hession: Because where are they going to go this year? Where do we want to take our family trip? Oh, and it just happened. My wife and I, our family, we have a place in Snowmass. So every year, we have some friends who are like, I want to come out to Snowmass. Well, they buy an IconPass. Their decision is made based on, oh.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:43.000Joe Hession: your condo's available, I can go, I'm gonna lock in an Icon Pass. That's how consumers actually work. So, to me, it's like, I agree with you, I love the big passes, I don't think they should go away. I think there's a great place for India, I think there's a great place for Icon, I think there's a great place for Epic Pass. There might be a great place for Snowpass.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:59.000Joe Hession: But I also get really excited about other options. And I feel like we're at this disruptive time where we're seeing the results of these passes and kind of the rubs that are rubbing people the wrong way. And I think it might be time with technology that we can kind of.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:06.000Joe Hession: take it to the next level. Like, you know, we're talking about the evolution of, you know, major.00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:21.000Joe Hession: uh, success has been done, and there's been some learnings, right? Like… like, the pictures of the long lines and stuff, uh, that we see every holiday or powder day, like, is a result of the PASS program. It's a result of this, it's an output of that, and I think there's ways we can maybe.00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:37.000Joe Hession: Make it better where the skier gets a better choice, a better experience, and then the resorts get to share in different ways. So really, at the end of the day, I think it's a technology driven way to better collaborate for the betterment of the ski experience to democratize.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.000Joe Hession: It's kind of the price and take out the middleman is really, is really my pitch.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.000Stuart Winchester: So, Joy, I appreciate…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.000Joe Hession: I'd like to remove myself from the equation eventually.00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:01.000Stuart Winchester: You know, the problem with you removing yourself from the equation, Joe, is that everyone I talk to really likes working with Snow Partners, your team. They like the train-based learning, they like your operating software.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: And I appreciate that spirit of Bonhomie, and you're right, the ski industry is small, and it was smaller than I would have imagined, and it was more welcoming than I would have imagined. I'm not sure if you read the lawsuit.00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: The most recent one filed against Veil Altera, Boyne Powder, the National Skier Association and and RRC. And it's built.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: the case for the lawsuit is built on accusations of collusion. Using a lot of.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:50.000Stuart Winchester: kind of fluffy evidence of people getting together at NSAA shows and basically sharing data and sharing best practices. I think all industries do this. Now, I'm going somewhere with this.00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: I appreciate that, and I think IndyPass, a lot of people love working with them. However, maybe a little more conflict would be good for the ski industry, because one thing I've seen as I've been reading old newspaper clippings is ski operators used to talk a lot more junk to each other, like, oh, Summit County, Colorado does.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: more skier visits to the whole state of Utah. Obviously, those days are over, but there used to be a little more smack talk. So let me get into a little controversy here, and you can address this as you want.00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: As you said, Indy Pass does not share. You have been willing to share and and the snow triple or snow pass shares two mountains, Bromance in Quebec and Whiteface with Mountain Collective and three.00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Butternut, Jiminy Peak, and Cranmore with the Icon today. You and Indy are both claiming Snow King, you're both telling me it's locked in, uh, and…00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Indy's telling me it's only gonna be on Indy, so… there's a little conflict for ya. Uh, how are you approaching that, and what do you think about the scenario?00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.000Joe Hession: Yeah, yeah.00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so we're talking about Snow King specifically?00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, Snow King specifically.00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so specifically Snow King, we have a signed agreement with Snow King. We're very excited to work with Snow King.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:23.000Joe Hession: Uh, Snow King would love to have visits, uh, come from us, and they are on our website, and we launched with Snow King. Um, that's where we're at. Um, you know, as far as what's going on with them in Indy.00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:39.000Joe Hession: Um, I'll kind of let them speak to that to themselves, but from what I understand, which I'll take some liberties and say what I think is going on, is there is a clause in an IndyPass that if someone leaves the IndyPass program.00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:55.000Joe Hession: They have to not work with anyone for another year. And it's kind of buried in the fine details. So I think what happened is I think they were off that pass, planned to be off that pass, maybe wasn't familiar with that clause, and then signed an agreement with us.00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:10.000Joe Hession: So for me, so the big question is, hey, so here's the choices as we sit today. We have a signed agreement. We've told Snow King, if this is going to hurt you, we never want to hurt you. So we are 100% willing to do whatever that takes.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Joe Hession: to do it.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:17.000Joe Hession: But, you know, we're not gonna just, like, bow down, because at the end of the day.00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:31.000Joe Hession: It's also on Indy, and maybe they… maybe they signed an agreement that wasn't… that was not the right thing to do. We have a signed agreement. They're on our paths, right? Um, at the end of the day, there's one person who can make a big choice here.00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000Joe Hession: Is Indy gonna sue Snow King because of this clause in the piece?00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:54.000Joe Hession: I read in the Boston Globe that Eric Mogensen is going to, like, change and save skiing. Is he going to sue a small ski resort? Like, and I know that's blunt, but I would put the ball right back in his court. I would love to, you know, if he sues Snow King.00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:12.000Joe Hession: That would be an insane thing. And I think he should go out to everyone and say, you know what, we're not going to litigate. You know, I know he hasn't been operating a ski resort long, and I have a ton of respect because of the fact that the fact that he's a GM of a ski resort, the fact that he's operating a ski resort, there's not a single person. And I respect him.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:27.000Joe Hession: I really do. I really do. There's just one piece that we don't see eye to eye on. And it's… he's told me he's the anti-collaborator, and I am the ultimate collaborator. So when you get us in the ring together, it's one is super collaboration and one isn't. And so to me.00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:39.000Joe Hession: I think, you know, the more he operates a ski resort, he's gonna realize that litigation is one of the hardest things we have to deal with in the ski business. We have realities of things that happen at ski resorts that involve litigation.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:49.000Joe Hession: suing each other is just a waste of time. Like, what are we doing? Like, we should be, like, we need… we should be talking about skiing and snowboarding, and we should be thinking.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:09.000Joe Hession: how many visits can Indy give Snow King? I would love for them to get a ton of visits. How many visits can Snow Pass give Snow King? Let's get Snow King visits. Let's give people options. And just because of, like, some, uh, you know, red tape in a contract, we're then gonna threaten and clause, like.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:28.000Joe Hession: So that's… so here's… so I gave you probably more than I should have, but… and I'm sure Hugh is no longer looking at me, so he… but he didn't give me the hook, so I'm still talking, right, Hugh? We're good? So, I'm sure… you know, but you'll definitely… you wanted to have, you know, for this inaugural session, you wanted to have some stories. This is a story.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:39.000Joe Hession: The story is, the reality is, the truth is, that they were under contract, Indy, from what I understand, which they've told me, they wrote they are no longer to work, they gave them the right.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:53.000Joe Hession: I'm out. This is the time you're supposed to be out. They were unaware of this one clause, which we were also unaware of. We signed, we moved forward, we announced. After announcement, it was, no, you can't do that. So, really, right now, I think Snow King would gladly take visits from both.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.000Joe Hession: We would gladly take visits from both.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:02.000Joe Hession: Ball's in Mogensen's court, we'll see what he does. I guess the best way to approach this is publicly. So, here.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: And he…00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:16.000Stuart Winchester: I agree, and Eric is scheduled to be on this podcast on Thursday, so he will have his chance to respond. And you know what, Joe, you're welcome back anytime to respond. But before you go out the door, I do want… I did promise to keep these short, and I know for you and I.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.000Joe Hession: Perfect!00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:16.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:31.000Stuart Winchester: Both, that's a challenge. I do want to call out some of these awesome new triple play partners, uh, Jiminy Peak and Cramore, especially. I have a ton of respect for the Fairbanks and, and, uh, what, and what they do. Uh, Bromont is, is an excellent.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:51.000Stuart Winchester: edition, and Hallamont. Actually, Hallamont is on Snow Pass as well, which is a terrific skier. I never realized until I went there this year. It's just because it's private on the weekends and in public during the week. What do you have to do to convince some of these folks, especially Jiminy Cranmore Bromont, to jump over to Snow Pass? Do you think there's a path there?00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, you know, I do. I think it's kind of proving it out over time, but also making, you know, going back to what I said earlier, maybe the right product for them is a relationship with different resorts, right? Maybe it's a whole new version of what happens, but I think we're very lucky to have them on the program.00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:25.000Joe Hession: Both operators are fantastic. Brian and Tyler Fairbank, we go back really far. Like, they were early adopters of us with snow operating and train-based learning. Brian Fairbank, if people don't know, is one of the godfathers of snowmaking in the industry.00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:40.000Joe Hession: He's still at it. He's in his 80s. He's out there making snow. I mean, he's an absolute legend. So anytime we get to work with him and his resort partners, we're really happy. Tyler, we've obviously known for well over a decade and a half as well.00:46:40.000 --> 00:47:00.000Joe Hession: great resorts, we've loved visiting them, and I think they're great operators, so I think people are going to love discovering them. And that's, you know, one thing I'll give a lot of credit to Indy for, which has opened our eyes, is the fact that there's so many passes on the program, there's the fact that there's all these different options. People learn new places they've never learned before, right? And I think Epic and I kind of have done the same.00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Joe Hession: You know, I never thought of going to Crested Butte, but because it's on the Epic Pass, I'm going to go to Crested Butte, or I never thought of going to this resort, but because of it. And I think that's been a huge success. And it's great to hear you say, like, Hollymont, like, oh, I didn't know that much about the.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:29.000Joe Hession: I think that's the spirit. The spirit is, how do you take skiers from different regions and inspire them to want to go to somewhere else and make that transaction seamless and easy for the operators to navigate, is really our goal.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:49.000Stuart Winchester: It's such a rich world, and I love how you're helping folks explore it. Leave us with this, Joe. Where can we buy Snowpass? And I believe you said you're selling a limited number. You probably won't tell me that number, but how soon should folks go to where you're going to tell us to go before they're going to lose this special price of, I believe, 340 for Snowpass and 179?00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000Stuart Winchester: For the triple play.00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:05.000Joe Hession: Correct. So, so 4pm today, mysnowpass.com, uh, it's gonna be a limited release. Uh, if you know the Mound Creek world, and you know how we do it, it's actually Mound Creek's on the clock right now.00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:22.000Joe Hession: Um, we've been selling for 31 minutes, so I'm gonna get an update when we get off the call here, but at 4 o'clock, we will have our watch party with our group in the kind of war room. We're watching the transactions live. We have a number that we have promised ourselves we will not exceed, and it'll shut itself down at that number.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:40.000Joe Hession: Um, so 4PM today will be, uh… will be the birth of a new product in the industry, which hopefully will inspire other new products down the road, and… and hopefully start to change the relationship between resorts and… and the skiers, because that's what it's about. It's about getting skiers the best price for the best mountains, new… doing new things, and working together.00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:00.000Joe Hession: And we have a beautiful industry of resorts, but we have great customers. People who are skiers and snowboarders are so passionate. Like, I read everything they post on your stuff. You know, the comments have been just amazing. And, you know, we're looking forward to, over time, I want to make that person in Colorado that keeps saying, this pass stinks, has nothing to do for me.00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:09.000Joe Hession: I want to eventually win them over by giving them a product that does make sense for them or allowing resorts there to find a product that works for them. So it's really exciting day.00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: Colorado bro is very proud of Colorado. Uh, last year, Joe, you sold Snow Triple Play, I believe, until Christmas Eve. You have a similar schedule in mind for these two passes this year?00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah, exactly the same schedule. So they'll be… the best price will be the launches. So today will be the lowest possible price, it'll scale up in another drop, and then it'll be on sale for a little bit at its full retail price, and then it'll turn off at that time. Exactly.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Joe, so good to run you down. Good luck with the launch. I can't wait to see how it goes, and how this thing grows, and frankly, how this little controversy between Snowpass and Indypass resolves itself, because I'm sure that you will find a way through it. So, thank you so much for being my first guest on the new platform. I really appreciate it.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:35.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:54.000Stuart Winchester: You're welcome on anytime. We'll talk to you really soon.00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.000Joe Hession: Great. Thanks for having me.00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care, Joe. Bye now.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so…00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what do you…00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:23.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so that was Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners and the founder. Quick update from another partner before I wrap up the show today. If you run a ski area or outdoor brand, I want to tell you about my friends at Bonfire Collective.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:35.000Stuart Winchester: They are a fractional marketing team that collaborates with ski areas and outdoor brands, and they will give your marketing a fresh perspective and better storytelling to supercharge your rebranding or advertising.00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire can help you rethink your approach in ways that can turbocharge your business.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:49.000Stuart Winchester: For example, Bonfire took on the marketing at one New Hampshire ski area and doubled revenue in just three years.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: When the storm was ready to invest in its first ever digital marketing campaign last year, I worked with Bonfire to make it happen. I could not be happier with the results, and I think you will love working with them as well. To get started, you'll want to talk to Eric.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:21.000Stuart Winchester: over at Bonfire Collective. He was a co-founder of Bluebird Backcountry Colorado, the first human-powered ski area, so he knows the ski business. You can actually listen to his podcast episode on the Storm Skiing Podcast, long form. Visit bonfirecollective.com.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:25.000Stuart Winchester: Or I will be happy to make that connection for you.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, how great was Joe?00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:45.000Stuart Winchester: This is why I love the new pod, because I can have guys like that on all the time. I have dozens of relationships like that throughout the ski industry. Anytime you've listened to a podcast and you've heard someone on there and you enjoyed the conversation.00:51:45.000 --> 00:52:01.000Stuart Winchester: Whether it was Carl Kapczynski, who runs California Mountain Resorts, or… and owns Mountain High, and Bear Valley, and China Peak, and Dodge Ridge out in California. Or if it was…00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Dustin, who… the president at Copper Mountain, uh, or it was Rob Katz, you know, the Vale CEO. I'm interacting with these people, or… or the folks who represent them, all the time.00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:31.000Stuart Winchester: I talk to Carl Kabasinski all the time, but I haven't had him on the podcast in four years. He's already agreed to come on the new shorter form to talk about all the things going on in his mountains. And that's what's great about it. And, you know, one of the concerns that I heard from people when I announced a shorter form pod was.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:47.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, well, I really like when you covered small mountains. Well, this will allow me to do that much more, because I don't have to commit an entire hour and a half long episode to it, and it doesn't have to be the whole history of the area. I can just, for example, ask.00:52:47.000 --> 00:53:02.000Stuart Winchester: Rick Schmitz from Little Switzerland in Wisconsin to come onto the show and talk about the new quad chairlift that he's putting up or two new quads put

Recorded November 20, 2025 - Thursday Night Revival "Because He Loved Me" sung by the Mountain Creek Baptist singers with Scottie Calloway on guitar

Recorded November 20, 2025 - Thursday Night Revival "Jesus Passed By" sung by The Mountain Creek Baptist Singers with Scottie Calloway on guitar

Recorded November 20, 2025 - Thursday Night Revival "God is Still Good" sung by The Mountain Creek Baptist Singers with Scottie Calloway on guitar

Recorded November 20, 2025 - Thursday Night Revival "He Paid a Debt He did Not Owe" sung by The Mountain Creek Baptist Singers with Scottie Calloway on guitar

Pastor Kara spoke about how she has enjoyed catching up with everyone at Mountain Creek after having been away for an extended period of time. At ladies coffee, we shared some heavy times and challenges with health, work, finance, and relationships and realized that it's been a bitter season for many. How do we handle this as Christ followers? Let's take a look at moving from Bitter to Better to Blessed!

Days late, dollars short. That's how the B Practice Podcast rolls. After a rough first race of the year, followed by some horrendous travel, it took us an extra week to nail down our guy Dak to podcast. We chatted a good bit about his race weekend in South Korea and how he's feeling about his program going into the next big block of racing. We also discussed how he rushed to race the Monster Pro Downhill at Mountain Creek last weekend, and how he's heading to Andorra next week to make his bike stiffer. Plus, all the usual race weekend coverage, including Asa winning his first try in Elites, Aletha having the fastest time of the day, track notes from a wild first-time venue, gripes with the broadcast, Amaury's what could have been winning run, big names off the pace, new names in juniors, and a bunch of other nonsense. We hope you enjoy. Thanks for listening!

They work tirelessly to give students every opportunity to find success in and outside of the classroom. On this episode of the Supercast, meet the amazing counseling team at Mountain Creek Middle School, recently recognized as an American School Counselor Model Program. It is a prestigious national recognition that is not easy to come by and only given to the best of the best in comprehensive school counseling programs around the country. Audio Transcription Transcription coming soon.

WhoSusan Cross, Vice President of Operations at Aspen Skiing Company (and former Mountain Manager of Snowmass)Recorded onNovember 14, 2025 - which was well before I traveled to Snowmass and chased Cross around a bit in the pow. There she is tiny in the distance:About Aspen Skiing CompanyAspen Skiing Company (Skico) is part of something called Aspen One. Don't ask me what that is because even though they rolled it out two years ago I still have no idea what they're talking about. All I know or care about is that they own four ski areas and here is what I know about them:Don't be fooled by the scale of the map above - at 3,342 acres, Snowmass is larger than Aspen Mountain, Buttermilk, and Aspen Highlands combined. The monster 4,400-foot vert means these lifts are massively shrunken to fit the map - Snowmass operates three of the 10 longest chairlifts in America, and seven chairlifts over one mile long:You can't ski or ride a lift between the four mountains, but free shuttles connect them all. Aspen Mountain, Highlands, and Buttermilk are all bunched together near town, and Snowmass is a short drive (15 to 20 minutes if traffic is clear and dependent upon which base area you want to hit):Why I interviewed herAmerican ski areas will often re-use chairlifts or snowcats that other operators have outgrown. Aspen Mountain re-used a whole town.In 1879, Aspen the city didn't exist, and by 1890 more than 5,000 people lived there. They came for silver, not snow. In less than a decade they laid out the Victorian street grid of brick and wood-framed buildings using hand tools and horses, with the Roaring Fork River as their supply road.Aspen's population collapsed in the economic depressions of the 1890s and didn't rebound to 5,000 for 100 years. The 1940 Census counted 777 residents. That was 16 years before the first chairlift rose up Ajax, a perfect ski mountain above an intact but semi-abandoned town made pointless by history.It was an amazing coincidence, really. Americans would never build a ski town on purpose. That's where the parking lots go. But hey it all worked out: Aspen evolved into a ski town that offset its European walk-to-the-chairlifts sensibility with a hard-coded American refusal to expand the historic street grid in favor of protectionism and mansion-building. The contemporary result is one of the world's most expensive real estate markets cosplaying as a quaint ski town, a lively and walkable mixed-use community of the sort that we idealize but refuse to build more of. Aspen's population is now around 7,000, most of whom live there by benefit of longevity, subsidy, inheritance, or extreme wealth. The city's median household income is just over $50,000. The median home price is $9.5 million. Anyone clinging to the illusion that Aspen is an actual ski town should consider that it took 25 years to approve and build the Hero's chairlift. Imagine what the fellows who built this whole city in half a decade without the benefit of electricity or cement trucks or paved roads would make of that.The illusory city, however, is a dynamic separate from the skiing. Aspen, despite its somewhat dated lift fleet, remains one of America's best small ski mountains. But it is small, and, with no green terrain and barely any blues, the ski area lacks the substance and scale to draw tourists west of Summit County and Vail.Sister mountain Snowmass does that. And while Snowmass did not benefit from an already-built town at its base, it did benefit from not having one, in that the mountain could evolve with a purpose and speed that Ajax, boxed in by geography and politics, never could. Snowmass has built 13 new aerial lifts this century, including the two-station, mountain-redefining Elk Camp Gondola; the Village Express six-pack, which is the fourth-longest chairlift in America; and, in just the past two years, a considerably lengthened Coney high-speed quad and a new six-pack to replace the Elk Camp chairlift.I've focused on Aspen's story a bit over the years (including this 2021 podcast with former Skico CEO Mike Kaplan), but probably not enough. The four Aspen mountains are some of the most important in American skiing, even if visitation doesn't quite match their status as skiing word-association champion among non-skiers (more on that below). Aspen, a leader not just in skiing but in housing, the environment, and culture, carries narrative heft, and the company's status as favored property of Alterra part-owner Henry Crown hints at deeper influence than Skico likely takes credit for. Aspen, like Big Sky and Deer Valley and Sun Valley, is rapidly emerging as one of the new titans of American skiing, unleashing a modernization drive that should lead, as Cross says in our conversation, to an average of at least one new lift per year across the portfolio. Snowmass' 2023 U.S. Forest Service masterplan envisions a fully modern mountain with snowmaking to the summit. Necessary and exciting as that all is, forthcoming updates to the dated masterplans at Aspen Highlands (2013) and Buttermilk (2008), could, Skico officials tell me, offer a complete rethinking of what Aspen-Snowmass is and how the ski areas orbit one another as a unit.And they do need to rethink the whole package. Challenging Skico's pre-eminence in the Circle of American Ski Gods are many obstacles, including but not limited to: an address that's just a bit remote for Denver to bother with or tourists to comprehend; a rinky-dink airport that can't land a paper plane; an only-come-if-you-have-nine-houses rap on the affordability matrix; a toxic combination of one of America's most expensive season passes and most expensive walk-up lift tickets; and national pass partners who do a poor job making it clear that Aspen is not one ski area but four.A lot to overcome, but I think they'll figure it out. The skiing is too good not to. What we talked about“I thought I had found Heaven” upon arrival in Aspen; Aspen in the 1990s; $200 a month to live in Carbondale; “as soon as you go up on the lifts, the mountain hasn't changed”; when Skico purchased formerly independent Aspen Highlands; Highlands pre-detachable lifts; four ski areas working (and not), as one ski resort; why there is “minimal sharing” of employees between the four mountains; why “two winter seasons, and then I was going back to Boston” didn't quite work out; why “total guilt sets in” if Cross misses a day of skiing and how she “deliberately” makes “at least a couple of runs” happen every day of the winter and encourages everyone else to do the same; Long Shot in the morning; the four pods of Snowmass; why tourists tend to lock onto one section of the mountain; “a lot of people don't realize their lift ticket is good for the four mountains”; “there's plenty of room to spread out and have a blast” even at busy Snowmass; defining the four mountains without typecasting them; no seriously there are no green runs on Aspen Mountain; the new Elk Camp six-pack; why Elk Camp doesn't terminate at the top of Burnt Mountain; why Elk Camp doesn't have the fancy carriers that came with 2024's new Coney Express lift; why Snowmass opted not to add bubbles to its six-packs; how Coney Express changed how skiers use Snowmass; why Coney is a quad rather than a six; why skiers can't unload at the Coney Express mid-station (and couldn't load last season); how Coney ended up with a mid-station and two bends along the liftline; the hazards of bending chairlifts and lessons learned from Alta's Supreme debacle; why Snowmass replaced the Cirque Poma with a T-bar (and not a chairlift); which mountain purchased the old Poma; Aspen's history of selling lifts and how the old Elk Camp wound up at Powderhorn ski area; where Skico had considered moving the Elk Camp quad; “we want everybody to stay in business”; why Snowmass didn't sell or relocate the Coney Glade lift; prioritizing future chairlift upgrades; the debate over whether to replace Elk Camp or Alpine Springs first, and why Elk Camp won; “what we're trying to do is at least one lift a year across the four mountains”; a photobomb from my cat; why the relatively new Village Express lift is a replacement candidate and where that lift could move; why we're unlikely to see the proposed Burnt Mountain chairlift anytime soon; and the new megalift that could rise on Aspen Mountain this summer.What I got wrong* I said that Breck had “T-bars serving their high peaks,” which is incorrect. In fact, Breck runs chairlifts close to the summits of Peak 8 (Imperial Superchair, the highest chairlift in North America), and Peak 6 (Kensho Superchair). I was thinking, however, of the Horseshoe T-Bar, an incredible high-alpine machine that I rode recently (it lands below Imperial Superchair on Peak 8).* I said that Maverick Mountain, Montana, was running a “1960-something” Riblet double. The lift dates to 1969, and is slated for replacement by Aspen Mountain's old Gent's Ridge fixed-grip quad, which Skico removed in 2024.* I referred to the Sheer Bliss chairlift as “Super Bliss,” which I think was fallout from over-exposure to Breck, where 12 of the chairlifts are named [SOMETHING] Superchair or some similar name.Why you should ski Aspen-SnowmassWhy do we ski Colorado? In some ways, it's a dumb question. We ski Colorado because everyone skis Colorado: the state's resorts account for 20 to 25 percent of annual U.S. skier visits, inbounds skiable acreage, and detachable chairlifts. Colorado is so synonymous with skiing that the state basically is skiing from the point of view of the outside world, especially to non-skiers who, challenged to name a ski resort, would probably come up with Vail or Aspen.But among well-traveled skiers, Colorado is Taylor Swift. Talented, yes, but a bit too obvious and sell-your-kidneys expensive. There's a lot more music out there: Utah gets more snow, Idaho and Montana have fewer people, B.C.'s Powder Highway has both of those things. Europe is cheaper (well, everywhere is cheaper). Colorado is only home to 26 public, lift-served ski areas, and only two of the 10 largest in America. Only seven Colorado ski areas rank among the nation's 50 snowiest by average annual snowfall. Getting there is a hassle. That awful airport. That stupid road. So many Texans. So many New Yorkers. Alternate, Man!But we all go anyway. And here's why: Colorado ski areas claim 14 of the 20 highest base areas in North America, and 16 of the 20 highest summits. What that means is that, unlike in Tahoe or Park City or Idaho, it never rains. Temperatures rarely top freezing. That means the snow that falls stays, and stays nice. Even in a mediocre Rocky Mountain winter – like this one – Colorado is able to deliver a consistent and predictable trail footprint in a way that no other U.S. ski state can match. Add in an abundance of approachable, intermediate-oriented ski terrain, and it's clear why America's two largest ski area operators center their multi-mountain pass empires in Colorado.Which brings us back to the thing most skiers hate the most about Colorado skiing: other skiers. There are just so many of them. And they all planned the same vacation. For the same time.But there is a back door. Around half of Colorado's 12 to 14 million annual skier visits occur at just five ski areas: Vail Mountain, Breck, Keystone, Copper, and Steamboat – often but not always strictly in that order. Next comes Winter Park, then Beaver Creek. And all the way down at number eight for Colorado annual skier visits is Snowmass.Snowmass' 771,259 skier visits is still a lot of skier visits. But consider some additional stats: Snowmass is the third-largest ski area in Colorado and the 11th-largest in America. From a skier visits-to-skiable-acreage ratio, it comes in way below the state's other 2,000-plus-acre ski areas (save Telluride, which is even more remote than Aspen):Why is that? The map explains it: Snowmass, and Aspen in general, lost the I-70 sweepstakes. They're too far west, too far off the interstate (so is Steamboat, but at least they have a real airport).Snowmass is worth the extra drive time. I-70 through Glenwood Canyon is slow-going but gorgeous, and the 40 miles of Colorado 82 after the interstate turnoff barely qualify as mountain driving – four lanes most of the way, no tight turns, some congestion but only if you're arriving in the morning. A roundabout or two and there you are at Snowmass.And here's what that extra two hours of driving gets you: all the benefits of Colorado skiing absent most of its drawbacks. Goldilocks Mountain. Here you'll find the fourth-highest lift-served summit in American skiing, the second-tallest vertical drop, and a dizzying, dazzling modern lift fleet spinning 20 lifts, including 9 detachables and a gondola. You'll find glorious ever-cruisers, tree-dotted and infinite; long bumpers twisting off High Alpine; comically approachable green zones at the village and mid-mountain. If Campground double is open, you can sample Colorado skiing circa 1975, alone in the big empty lapping the long, slow lift. And since the Brobots hate Snowmass, the high-altitude Hanging Valley and Cirque Headwall expert zones are always empty.That's one of four mountains. Towering, no-greens-for-real Aspen Mountain and Aspen Highlands are as rugged and wicked as anything a Colorado chairlift can drop you onto. And Buttermilk is just delightful – 2,000 vertical feet of no-stress-with-the-9-year-old, with fast lifts back to the top all day long.Podcast NotesOn Sugarbush and Mad River GlenI always like to make this point for western partisans: there is eastern skiing that stacks up well against the average western ski experience. Most of it is in northern Vermont, and two of the best, terrain-wise, are Alterra-owned Sugarbush - home of the longest chairlift in the world - and co-op-owned Mad River Glen, which still spins the only single chair in the lower 48. Here's Sugarbush:Mad River Glen is right next door. Just keep going looker's right off Mt. Ellen:On pre-Skico HighlandsWhoa that's a lot of lifts. And they're almost all doubles and Pomas.On Joe HessionHession is founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns Mountain Creek ski area, the Big Snow indoor ski ramp in New Jersey, Snow Cloud resort-management software, the Snow Triple Play Pass, and the Terrain Based Learning concept that you see in beginner areas all over America. He's been on the pod a few times, and he's a huge fan of Susan's.On Timberline's wonky vertMeasuring vertical drop is a somewhat hazardous game. Potential asterisks include the clandestine inclusion of hike-up terrain (Aspen Highlands), ski-down terrain with no return lift access (Sunlight), or both (Arapahoe Basin). Generally, I refer to lift-served vert, meaning what you can ski down and ride back up without walking. But even that gets tricky, as in the case of Timberline Lodge, Oregon, home to the tallest vertical drop in American lift-served skiing. We have to get mighty creative with the definition of “lift” however, since Timberline includes a 557-vertical-foot lift-served gap between the top of the Summit chairlift (4,290 feet) and the bottom of the Jeff Flood high-speed quad (4,847 feet). This is the result of two historically separate ski areas combining in 2018:Timberline's masterplan calls for a gondola from the base of Summit up to the top of Jeff Flood:For now, skiers can ski all the way down, but have to ride back up to Timberline from the Summit base via shuttle. To further complicate the calculus here, the hyper-exposed Palmer high-speed summit quad rarely runs in winter, acting mostly as a summer workhorse for camp kids. When Palmer's not running, a snowcat will sometimes shuttle skiers close to the unload point.Anyway, that's the fine print annotating our biggest lift-served vertical drop list:On Big Sky's new lifts and pod-stickingSnowmass' recent lift upgrade splurges are impressive, but Big Sky has built an incredible 12 aerial lifts in the past decade, 11 of them brand-new. These are some of the most sophisticated lifts in the world and include two six-packs, two eight-packs, a tram, and two gondolas. This reverse chronology of Big Sky's active lifts doubles as a neat history of the mountain's evolution from striver importing other resorts' leftovers to one of the top ski areas on the continent:Big Sky still has some older chairs spinning along its margins, but plenty of tourists spend their entire vacation just lapping the out-of-base super lifts (according to on-the-ground staff). The only peer Big Sky has in the recent American lift upgrade game is Deer Valley, which has erected nearly a dozen aerial lifts in just the past two years to feed its mega-expansion.On the Ikon Pass site being confusing as to mountain accessI just find the classification of four separate and distinct ski areas as one “destination” confusing, especially for skiers who aren't familiar with the place:On the new Elk Camp chairliftThe upside of taking nine years to distribute this podcast is that I was able to go ride Snowmass' gorgeous new Elk Camp sixer:On my Superstar lift discussion with KillingtonOn Aspen's history of selling liftsI somewhat overstated Aspen's history of selling lifts to smaller mountains. It seemed like a lot, though these are the only ones I can find records of:However, given Skico's enormous number of retired Riblets (28, all but two of which were doubles), and the durability and ubiquity of these machines, I suspect that pieces – and perhaps wholes – of Aspen's retired chairlifts are scattered in boneyards across the West.On the small number of relocated detachable lifts Given that the world's first modern detachable chairlift debuted at Breckenridge 45 years ago, it's astonishing how few have been relocated. Only 19 U.S. detaches that started life within the U.S. are now operating elsewhere in the country, and only nine moved to a different ski area:On Powderhorn's West End chairThe number of relocated detachables is set to increase to 10 next year, when Powderhorn, Colorado repurposes Snowmass' old Elk Camp quad to replace this amazing, 7,000-foot-long double chair, a 1972 Heron-Poma machine:Elk Camp is already sitting in a pile beside the load station (Powderhorn officials tell me the carriers are also onsite, but elsewhere):Powderhorn's existing high-speed quad, the Flat Top Flyer, also came used, from Marble Mountain in Canada.On Snowmass' masterplan and the proposed Burnt Mountain liftSnowmass' most recent U.S. Forest Service masterplan, released in 2022, shows the approximate location of a future hypothetical Burnt Mountain chairlift (the left-most red dotted line below):Unfortunately, Cross and the rest of Skico's leadership seem fairly unenthusiastic about actually building this lift. Right now, skiers can hike from the top of Elk Camp chair to access this terrain.On Aspen's Nell-Bell ProposalOh man how freaking cool would it be to ride one chairlift from Aspen's base to the top of Bell? Cross and I discuss Aspen Mountain's Forest Service application to do exactly that, with a machine along roughly this line parallel to the gondola:The new detachable would replace two rarely-used chairs: the Nell fixed-grip quad and the Bell Mountain double chair, which, incredibly, dates to 1957 (with heavy modifications in the 1980s), making it the fourth-oldest standing chairlift in the nation (after Mt. Spokane's 1956 Vista Cruiser Riblet, Mad River Glen's 1946 American Steel & Wire single chair, and Boyne Mountain's Hemlock Riblet double, moved to Michigan in 1948 after starting life circa 1936 as America's first chairlift – a single standing at Sun Valley).I lucked out with a gondola wind hold when I was in Aspen a few weeks back, meaning Nell was spinning:Sadly, Bell was idle, but I skied the liftline and loaded up on photos:On the original Lift 1 at AspenBehold Lift 1 on Aspen Mountain, a 1946 American Steel & Wire single chair that rose 2,574 vertical feet along an 8,480-foot line in something like 35 or 40 minutes. Details on this lift's origin story and history vary, but commenters on Lift Blog suggest that towers from this lift ended up as part of Sunlight's Segundo double following its removal from Ajax in 1971. That Franken-lift, which also contained parts from Aspen's Lift 3 – which dated to 1954 and may have been a Poma or American Steel & Wire machine, but lived its 52-year Sunlight tenure as a Riblet – came down last summer to make way for a new-used triple – A-Basin's old Lenawee chair.On the Hero's expansionAt just 826 acres, Aspen Mountain is the most famous small ski area in the West. The reason, in part, for this notoriety: a quirky, lively treasure chest of a ski area that rockets straight up, hiding odd little terrain pockets in its fingers and folds. The 153-acre Hero's terrain, a byzantine scramble of high-altitude tree skiing opened just two years ago, fits into this Rocky Mountain minefield like a thousand-dollar bill in a millionaire's wallet. An obscene boost to an already near-perfect ski mountain, so good it's hard to believe the ski area existed so long without it.Here's a mellow section of Hero's:And a less-mellow one (adding to the challenge, this terrain is at 11,000 feet):The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoMike Giorgio, Vice President and General Manager of Stowe Mountain, VermontRecorded onOctober 8, 2025About StoweClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Vail Resorts, which also owns:Located in: Stowe, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations:* Epic Pass: unlimited access* Epic Local Pass: unlimited access with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Value Pass: 10 days with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Midweek Pass: 5 midweek days with holiday blackouts* Access on Epic Day Pass All and 32 Resort tiers* Ski Vermont 4 Pass – up to one day, with blackouts* Ski Vermont Fifth Grade Passport – 3 days, with blackoutsClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Smugglers' Notch (ski-to or 40-ish-minute drive in winter, when route 108 is closed over the notch), Bolton Valley (:45), Cochran's (:50), Mad River Glen (:55), Sugarbush (:56)Base elevation: 1,265 feet (at Toll House double)Summit elevation: 3,625 feet (top of the gondola), 4,395 feet at top of Mt. MansfieldVertical drop: 2,360 feet lift-served, 3,130 feet hike-toSkiable acres: 485Average annual snowfall: 314 inchesTrail count: 116 (16% beginner, 55% intermediate, 29% advanced)Lift count: 12 (1 eight-passenger gondola, 1 six-passenger gondola, 1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 1 fixed-grip quad, 1 triple, 2 doubles, 2 carpets)Why I interviewed himThere is no Aspen of the East, but if I had to choose an Aspen of the East, it would be Stowe. And not just because Aspen Mountain and Stowe offer a similar fierce-down, with top-to-bottom fall-line zippers and bumpy-bumps spliced by massive glade pockets. Not just because each ski area rises near the far end of densely bunched resorts that the skier must drive past to reach them. Not just because the towns are similarly insular and expensive and tucked away. Not just because the wintertime highway ends at both places, an anachronistic act of surrender to nature from a mechanized world accustomed to fencing out the seasons. And not just because each is a cultural stand-in for mechanized skiing in a brand-obsessed, half-snowy nation that hates snow and is mostly filled with non-skiers who know nothing about the activity other than the fact that it exists. Everyone knows about Aspen and Stowe even if they'll never ski, in the same way that everyone knows about LeBron James even if they've never watched basketball.All of that would be sufficient to make the Stowe-is-Aspen-East argument. But the core identity parallel is one that threads all these tensions while defying their assumed outcome. Consider the remoteness of 1934 Stowe and 1947 Aspen, two mountains in the pre-snowmaking, pre-interstate era, where cutting a ski area only made sense because that's where it snowed the most. Both grew in similar fashion. First slowly toward the summit with surface lifts and mile-long single chairs crawling up the incline. Then double chairs and gondolas and snowguns and detachable chairlifts. A ski area for the town evolves into a ski area for the world. Hotels a la luxe at the base, traffic backed up to the interstate, corporate owners and $261 lift tickets.That sounds like a formula for a ruined world. But Stowe the ski area, like Aspen Mountain the ski area, has never lost its wild soul. Even buffed out and six-pack equipped and Epic Pass-enabled, Stowe remains a hell of a mountain, one of the best in New England, one of my favorite anywhere. With its monster snowfalls, its endless and perfectly spaced glades, its never-groomed expert zones, its sprawling footprint tucked beneath the Mansfield summit, its direct access to rugged and forbidding backcountry, Stowe, perhaps the most western-like mountain in the East, remains a skier's mountain, a fierce and humbling proving ground, an any-skier's destination not because of its trimmings, but because of the Christmas tree itself.Still, Stowe will never be Aspen, because Stowe does not sit at 8,000 feet and Stowe does not have three accessory ski areas and Stowe the Town does not grid from the lift base like Aspen the Town but rather lies eight miles down the road. Also Stowe is owned by Vail Resorts, and can you just imagine? But in a cultural moment that assumes ski area ruination-by-the-consolidation-modernization-mega-passification axis-of-mainstreaming, Aspen and Stowe tell mirrored versions of a more nuanced story. Two ski areas, skinned in the digital-mechanical infrastructure that modernity demands, able to at once accommodate the modern skier and the ancient mountain, with all of its quirks and character. All of its amazing skiing.What we talked aboutStowe the Legend; Vail Resorts' leadership carousel; ascending to ski area leadership without on-mountain experience; Mount Brighton, Michigan and Midwest skiing; struggles at Paoli Peaks, Indiana; how the Sunrise six-pack upgrade of the old Mountain triple changed the mountain; whether the Four Runner quad could ever become a six-pack; considering the future of the Lookout Double and Mansfield Gondola; who owns the land in and around the ski area; whether Stowe has terrain expansion potential; the proposed Smugglers' Notch gondola connection and whether Vail would ever buy Smuggs; “you just don't understand how much is here until you're here”; why Stowe only claims 485 acres of skiable terrain; protecting the Front Four; extending Stowe's season last spring; snowmaking in a snowbelt; the impact and future of paid parking; on-mountain bed-base potential; Epic Friend 50 percent off lift tickets; and Stowe locals and the Epic Pass.What I got wrongOn detailsI noted that one of my favorite runs was not a marked run at all: the terrain beneath the Lookout double chair. In fact, most of the trail beneath this mile-plus-long lift is a market run called, uh, “Lookout.” So I stand corrected. However, the trailmap makes this full-throttle, narrow bumper – which feels like skiing on a rising tide – look wide, peaceful, and groomable. It is none of those things, at least for its first third or so.On skiable acres* I said that Killington claimed “like 1,600 acres” of terrain – the exact claimed number is 1,509 acres.* I said that Mad River Glen claimed far fewer skiable acres than it probably could, but I was thinking of an out-of-date stat. The mountain claims just 115 acres of trails – basically nothing for a 2,000-vertical-foot mountain, but also “800 acres of tree-skiing access.” The number listed on the Pass Smasher Deluxe is 915 acres.On season closingsI intimated that Stowe had always closed the third weekend in April. That appears to be mostly true for the past two-ish decades, which is as far back as New England Ski History has records. The mountain did push late once, however, in 2007, and closed early during the horrible no-snow winter of 2011-12 (April 1), and the Covid-is-here-to-kill-us-all shutdown of 2020 (March 14).On doing better prepI asked whether Stowe had considered making its commuter bus free, but it, um, already is. That's called Reeserch, Folks.On lift ticket ratesI claimed that Stowe's top lift ticket price would drop from $239 last year to $235 this coming season, but that's inaccurate. Upon further review, the peak walk-up rate appears to be increasing to $261 this coming winter:Which means Vail's record of cranking Stowe lift ticket rates up remains consistent:On opening hoursI said that the lifts at Stowe sometimes opened at “7:00 or 7:30,” but the earliest ski lift currently opens at 8:00 most mornings (the Over Easy transit gondola opens at 7:30). The Fourrunner quad used to open at 7:30 a.m. on weekends and holidays. I'm not sure when mountain ops changed that. Here's the lift schedule clipped from the circa 2018 trailmap:On Mount Brighton, Michigan's supposed trashheap legacyI'd read somewhere, sometime, that Mount Brighton had been built on dirt moved to make way for Interstate 96, which bores across the state about a half mile north of the ski area. The timelines match, as this section of I-96 was built between 1956 and '57, just before Brighton opened in 1960. This circa 1962 article from The Livingston Post, a local paper, fails to mention the source of the dirt, leaving me uncertain as to whether or not the hill is related to the highway:Why you should ski StoweFrom my April 10 visit last winter, just cruising mellow, low-angle glades nearly to the base:I mean, the place is just:I love it, Man. My top five New England mountains, in no particular order, are Sugarbush, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, and Sugarloaf. What's best on any given day depends on conditions and crowding, but if you only plan to ski the East once, that's your list.Podcast NotesOn Stowe being the last 1,000-plus-vertical-foot Vermont ski area that I featured on the podYou can view the full podcast catalogue here. But here are the past Vermont eps:* Killington & Pico – 2019 | 2023 | 2025* Stratton 2024* Okemo 2023* Middlebury Snowbowl 2023* Mount Snow 2020 | 2023* Bromley 2022* Jay Peak 2022 | 2020* Smugglers' Notch 2021* Bolton Valley 2021* Hermitage Club 2020* Sugarbush 2020 with current president John Hammond | 2020 with past owner Win Smith* Mad River Glen 2020* Magic Mountain 2019 | 2020* Burke 2019On Stowe having “peers, but no betters” in New EnglandWhile Stowe doesn't stand out in any one particular statistical category, the whole of the place stacks up really well to the rest of New England - here's a breakdown of the 63 public ski areas that spin chairlifts across the six-state region:On the Front Four ski runsThe “Front Four” are as synonymous with Stowe as the Back Bowls are with Vail Mountain or Corbet's Couloir is with Jackson Hole. These Stowe trails are steep, narrow, double-plus-fall-line bangers that, along with Castlerock at Sugarbush and Paradise at Mad River Glen, are among the most challenging runs in New England.The problem is determining which of the double-blacks spiderwebbing off the top of Fourrunner are part of the Front Four. Officially, the designation has always bucketed National, Liftline, Goat, and Starr together, but Bypass, Haychute, and Lookout could sub in most days. Credit to Stowe for keeping these wild trails intact for going on a century, but what I said about them “not being for the masses” on the podcast wasn't quite accurate, as the lower portions of many - especially Liftline - are wide, often groomed, and not particularly treacherous. The best end-to-end trail is Goat, which is insanely steep and narrow up top. Here's part of Goat's middle-to-lower section, which is mellower but a good portrayal of New England bumpy, exposed-dirt-and-rocks gnar, especially at the :19 mark:The most glorious ego boost (or ego check) is the few hundred vertical feet of Liftline directly below Fourrunner. Sound on for scrapey-scrape:When the cut trails get icy, you can duck into the adjacent glades, most of which are unmarked but skiable. Here, I bailed into the trees skier's left of Starr to escape the ice rink:On Vail Resorts' leadership shufflesTwelve of Vail's 37 North American ski areas began the 2024-25 ski season with a different leader than they ended the 2023-24 ski season with. This included five of the company's New England resorts, including Stowe. Giorgio, in fact, became the ski area's third general manager in three winters, and the fourth since Vail acquired the ski area in 2017. I asked Giorgio about this, as a follow up to a similar set of questions I'd laid out for Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz in August:I may be overthinking this, but check this out: between 2017 and 2024, Vail Resorts changed leadership at its North American ski areas more than 70 times - the yellow boxes below mark a new president-general-manager equivalent (red boxes indicate that Vail did not yet own the ski area):To reset my thinking here: I can't say that this constant leadership shuffle is inherently dysfunctional, and most Vail Resorts employees I speak with appreciate the company's upward-mobility culture. And I consistently find Vail's mountain leaders - dozens of whom I have hosted on this podcast - to be smart, earnest, and caring. However, it's hard to imagine that the constant turnover in top management isn't at least somewhat related to Vail Resorts' on-the-ground reputational issues, truncated seasons at non-core ski areas (see Paoli Peaks section below), and general sense that the company's arc of investment bends toward its destination resorts.On Peak ResortsVail purchased all of Peak Resorts, including Mount Snow, where Giorgio worked, in 2019. Here's that company's growth timeline:On Vernon Valley-Great GorgeThe ski area now known as Mountain Creek was Vernon Valley-Great Gorge until 1997. Anyone who grew up in the area still calls the joint by its legacy name.On Paoli Peaks versus Perfect NorthMy hope is that if I complain enough about Paoli Peaks, Vail will either invest enough in snowmaking to tranform it into a functional ski area or sell it. Here are the differences between Paoli's season lengths since 2013 as compared to Perfect North, its competitor that is the only other active ski area in the state:What explains this longstanding disparity, which certainly predates Vail's 2019 acquisition of the ski area? Paoli does sit southwest of Perfect North, but its base is 200 feet higher (600 feet, versus 400 for Perfect), so elevation doesn't explain it. Perfect does benefit from a valley location, which, longtime GM Jonathan Davis told me a few years back, locks in the cold air and supercharges snowmaking. The simplest answer, however, is probably the correct one: Perfect North has built one of the most impressive snowmaking systems on the planet, and they use it aggressively, cranking more than 200 guns at once. At peak operations, Perfect can transform from green grass to skiable terrain in just a couple of days.So yes, Perfect has always been a better operation than Paoli. But check this out: Paoli's performance as compared to Perfect's has been considerably worse in the five full seasons of Vail Resorts' ownership (excluding 2019-20), than in the six seasons before, with Perfect besting Paoli to open by an average of 21 days before Vail arrived, and by 31 days after. Perfect's seasons lasted an average of 25 days longer than Paoli's before Vail arrived, and 38 days longer after:Yes, Paoli is a uniquely challenged ski area, but I'm confident that someone can do a better job running this place than Vail has been doing since 2019. Certainly, that someone could be Vail, which has the resources and institutional knowledge to transform this, or any ski area, into a center of SnoSportSkiing excellence. So far, however, they have declined to do so, and I keep thinking of what Davis, Perfect North's longtime GM, said on the pod in 2022: “If Vail doesn't want [its ski areas in Indiana and Ohio], we'll take them!”On the 2022 Sunrise Six replacement for the tripleIn 2022, Stowe replaced the Mountain triple chair, which sat up a flight of steep steps from the parking lot, with the at-grade Sunrise six-pack. It was the kind of big-time lift upgrade that transforms the experience of an entire ski area for everyone, whether they use the new lift or not, by pulling skiers toward a huge pod of underutilized terrain and away from longtime alpha lifts Fourrunner and the Mansfield Gondola.On Fourrunner as a vert machineStowe's Fourruner high-speed quad is one of the most incredible lifts in American skiing, a lightspeed-fast base-to-summit, 2,040-vertical-foot monster with direct access to some of the best terrain west of A-Basin.The highest vert total in my 54-day 2024-25 ski season came (largely) courtesy of this lift - and I only skied five-and-a-half hours:On Stowe-Smuggs proximity and the proposed gondola and a long drive in winterAdventurous skiers can skin or hike across the top of Stowe's Spruce Peak and ski down into the Smugglers' Notch ski area. An official ski trail once connected them, and Smuggs proposed a gondola connector a couple of years back. If Vail were to purchase sprawling Smuggs, a Canyons-Park City mega-connection – while improbable given local environmental lobbies -could instantly transform Stowe into one of the largest ski areas in the East.On Jay Peak's big snowmaking upgradesI referenced big offseason snowmaking upgrades for water-challenged (but natural-snow blessed), Jay Peak. I was referring to this:This season brings an over $1.5M snowmaking upgrade that's less about muscle and more about brains. We've added 49 brand new HKD Low E air-water snowmaking guns—32 on Queen's Highway and 17 on Perry Merrill. These aren't your drag-'em-out, hook-'em-up, hope-it's-cold-enough kind of guns. They're fixed in place for the season and far more efficient, using much less compressed air than the ones they replace. Translation: better snow, less energy.On Perry Merrill, things get even slicker. We've installed HKD Klik automated hydrants that come with built-in weather stations. The second temps hit 28 degrees wetbulb, these hydrants kick on automatically and adjust the flow as the mercury drops. No waiting, no guesswork, no scrambling the crew. The end result? Those key connecting trails between Tramside and Stateside get covered faster, which means you can ski from one side to the other—or straight back to your condo—without having to hop on a shuttle with your boots still buckled. …It's all part of a bigger 10-year snowmaking plan we're rolling out—more automation, better efficiency, and ultimately, better snow for you to ski and ride on.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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Thank you for your support of independent ski journalism.WhoPhill Gross, owner, and Mike Solimano, CEO of Killington and Pico, VermontRecorded onJuly 10, 2025About KillingtonClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Phill Gross and teamLocated in: Killington, VermontYear founded: 1958Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with PicoReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passesClosest neighboring ski areas: Pico (:12), Saskadena Six (:39), Okemo (:40), Quechee (:44), Ascutney (:55), Storrs (:59), Harrington Hill (:59), Magic (1:00), Whaleback (1:02), Sugarbush (1:04), Bromley (1:04), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:08), Arrowhead (1:10), Mad River Glen (1:11)Base elevation: 1,165 feet at Skyeship BaseSummit elevation: 4,142 feet at top of K-1 gondola (hike-to summit of Killington Peak at 4,241 feet)Vertical drop: 2,977 feet lift-served, 3,076 hike-toSkiable Acres: 1,509Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 155 (43% advanced/expert, 40% intermediate, 17% beginner)Lift count: 20 (2 gondolas, 2 six-packs, 4 high-speed quads, 5 fixed-grip quads, 2 triples, 1 double, 1 platter, 3 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Killington's lift fleet; Killington plans to replace the Snowdon triple with a fixed-grip quad for the 2026-27 ski season)History: from New England Ski HistoryAbout PicoClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Phill Gross and teamLocated in: Mendon, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with KillingtonReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passes; four days Killington access included on Pico K.A. PassClosest neighboring ski areas: Killington (:12), Saskadena Six (:38), Okemo (:38), Quechee (:42), Ascutney (:53), Storrs (:57), Harrington Hill (:55), Magic (:58), Whaleback (1:00), Sugarbush (1:01), Bromley (1:00), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:01), Mad River Glen (1:07), Arrowhead (1:09)Base elevation: 2,000 feetSummit elevation: 3,967 feetVertical drop: 1,967 feetSkiable Acres: 468Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 58 (36% advanced/expert, 46% intermediate, 18% beginner)Lift count: 7 (2 high-speed quads, 2 triples, 1 doubles, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Pico's lift fleet)History: from New England Ski HistoryWhy I interviewed themThe longest-tenured non-government ski area operator in America, as far as I know, is the Seeholzer family, owner-operators of Beaver Mountain, Utah since 1939. Third-generation owner Travis Seeholzer came on the pod a few years back to trace the eight-decade arc from this dude flexing 10-foot-long kamikaze boards to the present:Just about every ski area in America was hacked out of the wilderness by Some Guy Who Looked Like That. Dave McCoy at Mammoth or Ernie Blake at Taos or Everett Kircher at Boyne Mountain, swarthy, willful fellows who flew airplanes and erected rudimentary chairlifts in impossible places and hammered together their own baselodges. Over decades they chiseled these mountains into their personal Rushmores, a life's work, a human soul knotted to nature in a built place that would endure for generations.It's possible that they all imagined their family name governing those generations. In the remarkable case of Boyne, they still do. But the Kirchers and the Seeholzers are ski-world exceptions. Successive generations are often uninterested in the chore of legacy building. Or they try and say wow this is expensive. Or bad weather leads to bad financial choices by our cigar-smoking, backhoe-driving, machete-wielding founder and his sons and daughters never get their chance. The ski area's deed shuffles into the portfolio of a Colorado Skico and McCoy fades a little each year and at some point Mammoth is just another ski area owned by Alterra Mountain Company.It's tempting to sentimentalize the past, to lament skiing's macro-transition from gritty network of founder-kingpin fifes to set of corporate brands, to conclude that “this generation” just doesn't have the tenacity of a Blake or a McCoy. But the America where a fellow could turn up with a dump truck and a chainsaw and flatten raw forest into a for-profit business with minimal protest is gone. Every part of the ski ecosystem is more regulated, complicated, and expensive than it's ever been. The appeal of running such a machine - and the skillset necessary to do so - is entirely different from that of sculpting your own personal snow Narnia from scratch. We will always have family-owned ski areas (we still have hundreds), and an occasional modern founder-disruptor like Mount Bohemia's Lonie Glieberman will materialize like a new X-man. But ski conglomerates have probably always been inevitable, and are probably largely the industry's future. They are best suited, in most cases, to manage, finance, and maintain the vast machinery of our largest ski centers (and also to create a ski landscape in which not all ski area operators are Some Guy Who Looked Like That).Killington demonstrates this arc from rambunctious founder to corporate vassal as well as any mountain in the country. Founded in 1958 by the wily and wild Pres Smith, the ski area's parent company, Sherburne Corp., bought Sunday River, Maine in 1973 and Mount Snow, Vermont in 1977. The two Vermont mountains became S-K-I in 1984, bought five more ski areas, and merged with four-resort LBO in 1996 to become the titanic American Skiing Company. Unfortunately ASC turned out to be skiing's Titanic, and one of the company's last acts before dissolution was to sell Killington and Pico to Utah-based Powdr in 2007.The Beast had been tamed, at least on paper. Corporate ownership of some sort felt as stapled to the mountain as Killington's 3,000 snowguns. And mostly, well, it didn't matter. Other than Powdr's disastrous attempts to shorten the resort's famously long seasons, Killington never lost its feisty edge. Over the decades the ski area modernized, masterplanned, and shed skier volume while increasing its viability as a business. Modern Killington wasn't the kingdom of a charismatic and ever-present founder, but it was a pretty good ski area.And then, suddenly, shockingly, Powdr sold both Killington and Pico last August. And they didn't sell the ski areas to Vail or Alterra or Boyne or to anyone who owned any ski areas at all. Instead, a group of local investors - led by Phill Gross and Michael Ferri, longtime Killington homeowners who ran a variety of non-ski-related businesses - bought the mountains. After 51 years as part of a multi-mountain ownership group, Killington (its relationship to neighboring Pico notwithstanding), was once again independent.It was all so improbable. Out-of-state operators had purchased five of Vermont's large ski areas in recent years: Colorado-based Vail Resorts bought Stowe in 2017, Okemo in 2018, and Mount Snow in 2019; Denver-based Alterra claimed Sugarbush in 2019; and Utah-based Pacific Group Resorts added Jay Peak to their small portfolio in 2022. Very few ski areas have ever entered the corporate matrix and re-emerged as independents. Grand Targhee, Wyoming; Waterville Valley, New Hampshire; and Mountain Creek, New Jersey (technically owned by multimountain operator Snow Partners) are exceptions spun off from larger companies. But mostly, once a larger entity absorbed a ski area, it stays locked in the multimountain universe forever.So what would this mean? For the largest and busiest mountain in the eastern United States to be independent? Did this, along with Powdr's intentions to sell Mount Bachelor (since rescinded), Eldora (sale in process), and Silver Star (no update), mark a reversal in the consolidation trend that had gathered 30 percent of America's ski areas under the umbrella of a multi-mountain operator? Did Killington's group of wealthy-but-not-Bezos-wealthy investors set an alternate blueprint for large-mountain ownership, especially when considered alongside the sale of Jackson Hole to a similar group the year before? Had the Ikon Pass – that harbinger of mass-market pass domination that had forced the we-better-join-them sales of Crystal Mountain, Washington and Sugarbush – inadvertently become a reliable revenue pipeline that made independence more viable? And would Killington, well-managed and constantly improving, backslide under cowboy owners who want to Q-Burke the place in their image?We're a year in now, and we have some clarity on these questions, along with two new chairlifts (Superstar this year, Snowdon next), 1,000 new snowguns, a revitalized Skyeship Gondola, and progressing plans on the East's first true ski village. Locals seem happy, management seems happy, the owners seem happy. Easy enough, Gross points out in our interview, when winter hits deep like the last one did. But can we keep the party going indefinitely? It was time for a check-in.What we talked aboutA strong first winter under independent ownership; what spring skiing off Canyon lift told us about the importance of Superstar; “it's an incredibly complex operation”; letting the smart people do their jobs; Killington's surprise spin-off from a multi-mountain operator; “our job is to keep the honeymoon going”; Superstar's six-pack upgrade; why six-packs are probably Killington's lift-upgrade future; why Pico is demolishing the Bonanza lift for a covered carpet; why Superstar won't have bubbles; where bubbles might make sense in a future lift; why ski areas can no longer run snowmaking under newly constructed chairlifts; why Superstar is a Doppelmayr machine after Killington installed a brand-new Leitner-Poma six at Snowdon in 2018; long- and short-term Superstar impacts to Killington's long season; long-term thoughts around early-season walkway access to North Ridge; Skyeship Gondola upgrades, including $5 million in new cabins; what 1,000 new snowguns means in practice; why Killington sold the Wobbly Barn; considering Killington as a business and investment; how Killington is a different financial beast from other Vermont ski areas; how close Killington was to going unlimited on Ikon Pass; Phill's journey to buying Killington; Devil's Fiddle and why sometimes things that don't make sense financially make sense anyway; “we want to own this for generations to come”; a village layout and timeline update – “we want to make sure that this is something that's additive to the ski experience” even if you don't own within it; “Great Gulf wants this [village] to be competitive for the western resorts”; “we don't want to change what Pico is”; how piping water over from Killington has reinvigorated and stabilized Pico; why Killington and Pico remained on Ikon Pass post-sale and probably will for the foreseeable future; is Ikon helping big ski areas stay independent?; Killington's steady rise in lift ticket prices; future lift upgrades and why the Snowdon Triple is next up for a replacement.What I got wrong* File “opinionation” under LOL I'm Dumb Talking Is Hard* I said that former Killington owner Powdr had “just sold” Eldora, but that's not accurate: in July, the town of Nederland, Colorado, announced their intent to purchase the ski area. The sales process is ongoing.Podcast NotesOn previous Killington podsOn Gross' purchase of Killington and PicoOn ANSI chairlift standardsWe get a bit in the weeds with a reference to “ANSI standards” for chairlifts. ANSI is the American National Standards Institute, a nonprofit organization that sets voluntary but widely adopted standards for everything from office furniture to electrical systems to safety signage in the United States. The ANSI standard for lifts, according to a blog post describing the code's 2022 update, is “developed by the National Ski Areas Association (NSAA), [and] establishes standard requirements for the design, manufacture, construction, operation, and maintenance of passenger ropeways.” On Killington's long seasonsKillington often opens in October (though it has not done so since 2018), and closes in June (three straight years before a deliberately truncated 2024-25 season to begin demolition of the Superstar chair). List of Killington open and close dates since 1987-88.On Win Smith and Killington and SugarbushOn Killington's villageThe East needs more of this:On Killington's peak lift ticket pricesPer New England Ski History:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm does not cover athletes or gear or hot tubs or whisky bars or helicopters or bros jumping off things. I'm focused on the lift-served skiing world that 99 percent of skiers actually inhabit, and I'm covering it year-round. To support this mission of independent ski journalism, please subscribe to the free or paid versions of the email newsletter.WhoGreg Pack, President and General Manager of Mt. Hood Meadows, OregonRecorded onApril 28, 2025About Mt. Hood MeadowsClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Drake Family (and other minority shareholders)Located in: Mt. Hood, OregonYear founded: 1968Pass affiliations:* Indy Pass – 2 days, select blackouts* Indy+ Pass – 2 days, no blackoutsClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Summit (:17), Mt. Hood Skibowl (:19), Cooper Spur (:23), Timberline (:26)Base elevation: 4,528 feetSummit elevation: 7,305 feet at top of Cascade Express; 9,000 feet at top of hike-to permit area; 11,249 feet at summit of Mount HoodVertical drop: 2,777 feet lift-served; 4,472 hike-to inbounds; 6,721 feet from Mount Hood summitSkiable acres: 2,150Average annual snowfall: 430 inchesTrail count: 87 (15% beginner, 40% intermediate, 15% advanced, 30% expert)Lift count: 11 (1 six-pack, 5 high-speed quads, 1 fixed-grip quad, 3 doubles, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog's inventory of Mount Hood Meadows' lift fleet)About Cooper SpurClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Drake FamilyLocated in: Mt. Hood, OregonYear founded: 1927Pass affiliations: Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass – 2 days, no blackoutsClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Mt. Hood Meadows (:22), Summit (:29), Mt. Hood Skibowl (:30), Timberline (:37)Base elevation: 3,969 feetSummit elevation: 4,400 feetVertical drop: 431 feetSkiable acres: 50Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 9 (1 most difficult, 7 more difficult, 1 easier)Lift count: 2 (1 double, 1 ropetow – view Lift Blog's inventory of Cooper Spur's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himVolcanoes are weird. Oh look, an exploding mountain. Because that seems reasonable. Volcanoes sound like something imagined, like dragons or teleportation or dinosaurs*. “So let me get this straight,” I imagine some puzzled Appalachian miner, circa 1852, responding to the fellow across the fire as he tells of his adventures in the Oregon Territory, “you expect me to believe that out thataways they got themselves mountains that just blow their roofs off whenever they feel like it, and shoot off fire and rocks and gas for 50 mile or more, and no one never knows when it's a'comin'? You must think I'm dumber'n that there tree stump.”Turns out volcanoes are real. How humanity survived past day one I have no idea. But here we are, skiing on volcanoes instead of tossing our virgins from the rim as a way of asking the nice mountain to please not explode (seriously how did anyone make it out of the past alive?).And one of the volcanoes we can ski on is Mount Hood. This actually seems more unbelievable to me than the concept of a vengeful nuclear mountain. PNW Nature Bros shield every blade of grass like they're guarding Fort Knox. When, in 2014, federal scientists proposed installing four monitoring stations on Hood, which the U.S. Geological Survey ranks as the sixth-highest threat to erupt out of America's 161 active volcanoes, these morons stalled the process for six years. “I think it is so important to have places like that where we can just step back, out of respect and humility, and appreciate nature for what it is,” a Wilderness Watch official told The New York Times. Personally I think it's so important to install basic monitoring infrastructure so that thousands of people are not incinerated in a predictable volcanic eruption. While “Japan, Iceland and Chile smother their high-threat volcanoes in scientific instruments,” The Times wrote, American Granola Bros say things like, “This is more proof that the Forest Service has abandoned any pretense of administering wilderness as per the letter or spirit of the Wilderness Act.” And Hood and the nation's other volcanoes cackle madly. “These idiots are dumber than the human-sacrifice people,” they say just before belching up an ash cloud that could take down a 747. When officials finally installed these instrument clusters on Hood in 2020, they occupied three boxes that look to be approximately the size of a convenience-store ice freezer, which feels like an acceptable trade-off to mass death and airplanes falling out of the sky.I know that as an outdoor writer I'm supposed to be all pissed off if anyone anywhere suggests any use of even a centimeter of undeveloped land other than giving it back to the deer in a treaty printed on recycled Styrofoam and signed with human blood to symbolize the life we've looted from nature by commandeering 108 square feet to potentially protect millions of lives from volcanic eruption, but this sort of trivial protectionism and willful denial that humans ought to have rights too is the kind of brainless uncompromising overreach that I fear will one day lead to a massive over-correction at the other extreme, in which a federal government exhausted with never being able to do anything strips away or massively dilutes land protections that allow anyone to do anything they can afford. And that's when we get Monster Pete's Arctic Dune Buggies setting up a casino/coal mine/rhinoceros-hunting ranch on the Eliot Glacier and it's like thanks Bros I hope that was worth it to stall the placement of gardenshed-sized public safety infrastructure for six years.Anyway, given the trouble U.S. officials have with installing necessary things on Mount Hood, it's incredible how many unnecessary ones our ancestors were able to build. But in 1927 the good old boys hacked their way into the wilderness and said, “by gum what a spot for snoskiing” and built a bunch of ski areas. And today 31 lifts serve four Mt. Hood ski areas covering a combined 4,845 acres:Which I'm just like, do these Wilderness Watch people not know about this? Perhaps if this and similar groups truly cared about the environmental integrity of Mount Hood they would invest their time, energy, and attention into a long-term regional infrastructure plan that identified parcels for concentrated mixed-use development and non-personal-car-based transit options to mitigate the impact of thousands of skiers traveling up the mountain daily from Portland, rather than in delaying the installation of basic monitoring equipment that notifies humanity of a civilization-shattering volcanic eruption before it happens. But then again I am probably not considering how this would impact the integrity of squirrel poop decomposition below 6,000 feet and the concomitant impacts on pinestand soil erosion which of course would basically end life as we know it on planet Earth.OK this went sideways let me try to salvage it.*Whoops I know dinosaurs were real; I meant to write “the moon landing.” How embarrassing.What we talked aboutA strong 2024-25; recruiting employees in mountains with little nearby housing; why Meadows doesn't compete with Timberline for summer skiing; bye-bye Blue double, Meadows' last standing opening-year chairlift; what it takes to keep an old Riblet operating; the reliability of old versus new chairlifts; Blue's slow-motion demolition and which relics might remain long term; the logic of getting a free anytime buddy lift ticket with your season pass; thoughts on ski area software providers that take a percentage of all sales; why Meadows and Cooper Spur have no pass reciprocity; the ongoing Cooper Spur land exchange; the value of Cooper Spur and Summit on a volcano with three large ski areas; why Meadows hasn't backed away from reciprocal agreements; why Meadows chose Indy over Epic, Ikon, or Mountain Collective; becoming a ski kid when you're not from a ski family; landing at Mountain Creek, New Jersey after a Colorado ski career; how Moonlight Basin started as an independent ski area and eventually became part of Big Sky; the tension underlying Telluride; how the Drake Family, who has managed the ski area since inception, makes decisions; a board that reinvests 100 percent of earnings back into the mountain; why we need large independents in a consolidating world; being independent is “our badge of honor”; whether ownership wants to remain independent long term; potential next lift upgrades; a potential all-new lift line and small expansion; thoughts on a better Heather lift; wild Hood weather and the upper limits of lift service; considering surface lifts on the upper mountain; the challenges of running Cascade Express; the future of the Daisy and Easy Rider doubles; more potential future expansion; and whether we could ever see a ski connection with Timberline Lodge.Why now was a good time for this interviewIt's kind of dumb that 210 episodes into this podcast I've only recorded one Oregon ep: Timberline Lodge President Jeff Kohnstamm, more than three years ago. While Oregon only has 11 active ski areas, and the state ranks 11th-ish in skier visits, it's an important ski state. PNW skiers treat skiing like the Northeast treats baseball or the Midwest treats football or D.C. treats politics: rabid beyond reason. That explains the eight Idaho pods and half dozen each in Washington and B.C. These episodes hit like a hash stand at a Dead show. So why so few Oregon eps?Eh, no reason in particular. There isn't a ski area in North America that I don't want to feature on the podcast, but I can't just order them online like a pizza. Relationships, more than anything, drive the podcast, and The Storm's schedule is primarily opportunity driven. I invite folks on as I meet them or when they do something cool. And sometimes we can connect right away and sometimes it takes months or even years, even if they want to do it. Sometimes we're waiting on contracts or approvals so we can discuss some big project in depth. It can take time to build trust, or to convince a non-podcast person that they have a great story to tell.So we finally get to Meadows. Not to be It-Must-Be-Nice Bro about benefits that arise from clear deliberate life choices, but It must be nice to live in the PNW, where every city sits within 90 minutes of a ripping, open-until-Memorial-Day skyscraper that gets carpet bombed with 400 annual inches but receives between one and four out-of-state visitors per winter. Yeah the ski areas are busy anyway because they don't have enough of them, but busy with Subaru-driving Granola Bros is different than busy with Subaru-driving Granola Bros + Texas Bro whose cowboy boots aren't clicking in right + Florida Bro who bought a Trans Am for his boa constrictor + Midwest Bro rocking Olin 210s he found in Gramp's garage + Hella Rad Cali Bro + New Yorker Bro asking what time they groom Corbet's + Aussie Bro touring the Rockies on a seven-week long weekend + Euro Bro rocking 65 cm underfoot on a two-foot powder day. I have no issue with tourists mind you because I am one but there is something amazing about a ski area that is gigantic and snowy and covered in modern infrastructure while simultaneously being unknown outside of its area code.Yes this is hyperbole. But while everyone in Portland knows that Meadows has the best parking lot views in America and a statistical profile that matches up with Beaver Creek and as many detachable chairlifts as Snowbasin or Snowbird and more snow than Steamboat or Jackson or Palisades or Pow Mow, most of the rest of the world doesn't, and I think they should.Why you should ski Mt. Hood Meadows and Cooper SpurIt's interesting that the 4,845 combined skiable acres of Hood's four ski areas are just a touch larger than the 4,323 acres at Mt. Bachelor, which as far as I know has operated as a single interconnected facility since its 1958 founding. Both are volcanoes whose ski areas operate on U.S. Forest Service land a commutable distance from demographically similar markets, providing a case study in distributed versus centralized management.Bachelor in many ways delivers a better experience. Bachelor's snow is almost always drier and better, an outlier in the kingdom of Cascade Concrete. Skiers can move contiguously across its full acreage, an impossible mission on Balkanized Hood. The mountain runs an efficient, mostly modern 15 lifts to Hood's wild 31, which includes a dozen detachables but also a half dozen vintage Riblet doubles with no safety bars. Bachelor's lifts scale the summit, rather than stopping thousands of feet short as they do on Hood. While neither are Colorado-grade destination ski areas, metro Portland is stuffed with 25 times more people than Bend, and Hood ski areas have an everbusy feel that skiers can often outrun at Bachelor. Bachelor is closer to its mothership – just 26 minutes from Bend to Portland's hour-to-two-hour commutes up to the ski areas. And Bachelor, accessible on all versions of the Ikon Pass and not hamstrung by the confusing counter-branding of multiple ski areas with similar names occupying the same mountain, presents a more clearcut target for the mainstream skier.But Mount Hood's quirky scatterplot ski centers reward skiers in other ways. Four distinct ski areas means four distinct ski cultures, each with its own pace, purpose, customs, traditions, and orientation to the outside world. Timberline Lodge is a funky mix of summertime Bro parks, Government Camp greens, St. Bernards, and its upscale landmark namesake hotel. Cooper Spur is tucked-away, low-key, low-vert family resort skiing. Meadows sprawls, big and steep, with Hood's most interesting terrain. And low-altitude, closest-to-the-city Skibowl is night-lit slowpoke with a vintage all-Riblet lift fleet. Your Epic and Ikon passes are no good here, though Indy gets you Meadows and Cooper Spur. Walk-up lift tickets (still the only way to buy them at Skibowl), are more tier-varied and affordable than those at Bachelor, which can exceed $200 on peak days (though Bachelor heavily discounts access to its beginner lifts, with free access to select novice areas). Bachelor's $1,299 season pass is 30 percent more expensive than Meadows'.This dynamic, of course, showcases single-entity efficiency and market capture versus the messy choice of competition. Yes Free Market Bro you are right sometimes. Hood's ski areas have more inherent motivators to fight on price, forge allegiances like the Timberline-Skibowl joint season pass, invest in risks like night and summer skiing, and run wonky low-tide lift ticket deals. Empowering this flexibility: all four Hood ski areas remain locally owned – Meadows and T-Line by their founding families. Bachelor, of course, is a fiefdom of Park City, Utah-based Powdr, which owns a half-dozen other ski areas across the West.I don't think that Hood is better than Bachelor or that Bachelor is better than Hood. They're different, and you should ski both. But however you dissect the niceties of these not-really-competing-but-close-enough-that-a-comarison-makes-sense ski centers, the on-the-ground reality adds up to this: Hood locals, in general, are a far more contented gang than Bachelor Bros. I don't have any way to quantify this, and Bachelor has its partisans. But I talk to skiers all over the country, all the time. Skiers will complain about anything, and online guttings of even the most beloved mountains exist. But talk to enough people and strong enough patterns emerge to understand that, in general, locals are happy with Mammoth and Alpine Meadows and Sierra-at-Tahoe and A-Basin and Copper and Bridger Bowl and Nub's Nob and Perfect North and Elk and Plattekill and Berkshire East and Smuggs and Loon and Saddleback and, mostly, the Hood ski areas. And locals are generally less happy with Camelback and Seven Springs and Park City and Sunrise and Shasta and Stratton and, lately, former locals' faves Sugarbush and Wildcat. And, as far as I can tell, Bachelor.Potential explanations for Hood happiness versus Bachelor blues abound, all of them partial, none completely satisfactory, all asterisked with the vagaries of skiing and skiers and weather and luck. But my sense is this: Meadows, Timberline, and Skibowl locals are generally content not because they have better skiing than everyplace else or because their ski areas are some grand bargain or because they're not crowded or because they have the best lift systems or terrain parks or grooming or snow conditions, but because Hood, in its haphazard and confounding-to-outsiders borders and layout, has forced its varied operators to hyper-adapt to niche needs in the local market while liberating them from the all-things-to-everyone imperative thrust on isolated operations like Bachelor. They have to decide what they're good at and be good at that all the time, because they have no other option. Hood operators can't be Vail-owned Paoli Peaks, turning in 25-day ski seasons and saying well it's Indiana what do you expect? They have to be independent Perfect North, striving always for triple-digit operating days and saying it's Indiana and we're doing this anyway because if we don't you'll stop coming and we'll all be broke.In this way Hood is a snapshot of old skiing, pre-consolidation, pre-national pass, pre-social media platforms that flung open global windows onto local mountains. Other than Timberline summer parks no one is asking these places to be anything other than very good local ski areas serving rabid local skiers. And they're doing a damn good job.Podcast NotesOn Meadows and Timberline Lodge opening and closing datesOne of the most baffling set of basic facts to get straight in American skiing is the number of ski areas on Mount Hood and the distinction between them. Part of the reason for this is the volcano's famous summer skiing, which takes place not at either of the eponymous ski areas – Mt. Hood Meadows or Mt. Hood Skibowl – but at the awkwardly named Timberline Lodge, which sounds more like a hipster cocktail lounge with a 19th-century fur-trapper aesthetic than the name of a ski resort (which is why no one actually calls it “Timberline Lodge”; I do so only to avoid confusion with the ski area in West Virginia, because people are constantly getting Appalachian ski areas mixed up with those in the Cascades). I couldn't find a comprehensive list of historic closing dates for Meadows and Timberline, but the basic distinction is this: Meadows tends to wrap winter sometime between late April and late May. Timberline goes into August and beyond when it can. Why doesn't Meadows push its season when it is right next door and probably could? We discuss in the pod.On Riblet clipsFun fact about defunct-as-a-company-even-though-a-couple-hundred-of-their-machines-are-still-spinning Riblet chairlifts: rather than clamping on like a vice grip, the end of each chair is woven into the rope via something called an “insert clip.” I wrote about this in my Wildcat pod last year:On Alpental Chair 2A small but vocal segment of Broseph McBros with nothing better to do always reflexively oppose the demolition of legacy fixed-grip lifts to make way for modern machines. Pack does a great job laying out why it's harder to maintain older chairlifts than many skiers may think. I wrote about this here:On Blue's breakover towers and unload rampWe also dropped photos of this into the video version of the pod:On the Cooper Spur land exchangeHere's a somewhat-dated and very biased-against-the-ski-area infographic summarizing the proposed land swap between Meadows and the U.S. Forest Service, from the Cooper Spur Wild & Free Coalition, an organization that “first came together in 2002 to fight Mt. Hood Meadows' plans to develop a sprawling destination resort on the slopes of Mt. Hood near Cooper Spur”:While I find the sanctimonious language in this timeline off-putting, I'm more sympathetic to Enviro Bro here than I was with the eruption-detection controversy discussed up top. Opposing small-footprint, high-impact catastrophe-monitoring equipment on an active volcano to save five bushes but potentially endanger millions of human lives is foolish. But checking sprawling wilderness development by identifying smaller parcels adjacent to already-disturbed lands as alternative sites for denser, hopefully walkable, hopefully mixed-use projects is exactly the sort of thing that every mountain community ought to prioritize.On the combination of Summit and Timberline LodgeThe small Summit Pass ski area in Government Camp operated as an independent entity from its 1927 founding until Timberline Lodge purchased the ski area in 2018. In 2021, the owners connected the two – at least in one direction. Skiers can move 4,540 vertical feet from the top of Timberline's Palmer chair to the base of Summit. While Palmer tends to open late in the season and Summit tends to close early, and while skiers will have to ride shuttles back up to the Timberline lifts until the resort builds a much anticipated gondola connecting the full height, this is technically America's largest lift-served vertical drop.On Meadows' reciprocalsMeadows only has three season pass reciprocal partners, but they're all aspirational spots that passholders would actually travel for: Baker, Schweitzer, and Whitefish. I ask Pack why he continues to offer these exchanges even as larger ski areas such as Brundage and Tamarack move away from them. One bit of context I neglected to include, however, is that neighboring Timberline Lodge and Mount Hood Skibowl not only offer a joint pass, but are longtime members of Powder Alliance, which is an incredible regional reciprocal pass that's free for passholders at any of these mountains:On Ski Broadmoor, ColoradoColorado Springs is less convenient to skiing than the name implies – skiers are driving a couple of hours, minimum, to access Monarch or the Summit County ski areas. So I was surprised, when I looked up Pack's original home mountain of Ski Broadmoor, to see that it sat on the city's outskirts:This was never a big ski area, with 600 vertical feet served by an “America The Beautiful Lift” that sounds as though it was named by Donald Trump:The “famous” Broadmoor Hotel built and operated the ski area, according to Colorado Ski History. They sold the hotel in 1986 to the city, which promptly sold it to Vail Associates (now Vail Resorts), in 1988. Vail closed the ski area in 1991 – the only mountain they ever surrendered on. I'll update all my charts and such to reflect this soon.On pre-high-speed KeystoneIt's kind of amazing that Keystone, which now spins seven high-speed chairlifts, didn't install its first detachable until 1990, nearly a decade after neighboring Breckenridge installed the world's first, in 1981. As with many resorts that have aggressively modernized, this means that Keystone once ran more chairlifts than it does today. When Pack started his ski career at the mountain in 1989, Keystone ran 10 frontside aerial lifts (8 doubles, 1 triple, 1 gondola) compared to just six today (2 doubles, 2 sixers, a high-speed quad, and a higher-capacity gondy).On Mountain CreekI've talked about the bananas-ness of Mountain Creek many times. I love this unhinged New Jersey bump in the same way I loved my crazy late uncle who would get wasted at the Bay City fireworks and yell at people driving Toyotas to “Buy American!” (This was the ‘80s in Michigan, dudes. I don't know what to tell you. The auto industry was falling apart and everybody was tripping, especially dudes who worked in – or, in my uncle's case, adjacent to (steel) – the auto industry.)On IntrawestOne of the reasons I did this insane timeline project was so that I would no longer have to sink 30 minutes into Google every time someone said the word “Intrawest.” The timeline was a pain in the ass, but worth it, because now whenever I think “wait exactly what did Intrawest own and when?” I can just say “oh yeah I already did that here you go”:On Moonlight Basin and merging with Big SkyIt's kind of weird how many now-united ski areas started out as separate operations: Beaver Creek and Arrowhead (merged 1997), Canyons and Park City (2014), Whistler and Blackcomb (1997), Alpine Meadows and Squaw Valley (connected via gondola in 2022), Carinthia and Mount Snow (1986), Sugarbush and Mount Ellen (connected via chairlift in 1995). Sometimes – Beaver Creek, Mount Snow – the terrain and culture mergers are seamless. Other times – Alpine and the Palisades side of what is now Palisades Tahoe – the connection feels like opening a store that sells four-wheelers and 74-piece high-end dinnerware sets. Like, these things don't go together, Man. But when Big Sky absorbed Moonlight Basin and Spanish Peaks in 2013, everyone immediately forgot that it was ever any different. This suggests that Big Sky's 2032 Yellowstone Club acquisition will be seamless.**Kidding, Brah. Maybe.On Lehman BrothersNearly two decades later, it's still astonishing how quickly Lehman Brothers, in business for 158 years, collapsed in 2008.On the “mutiny” at TellurideEvery now and then, a reader will ask the very reasonable question about why I never pay any attention to Telluride, one of America's great ski resorts, and one that Pack once led. Mostly it's because management is unstable, making long-term skier experience stories of the sort I mostly focus on hard to tell. And management is mostly unstable because the resort's owner is, by all accounts, willful and boorish and sort of unhinged. Blevins, in The Colorado Sun's “Outsider” newsletter earlier this week:A few months ago, locals in Telluride and Mountain Village began publicly blasting the resort's owner, a rare revolt by a community that has grown weary of the erratic Chuck Horning.For years, residents around the resort had quietly lamented the antics and decisions of the temperamental Horning, the 81-year-old California real estate investor who acquired Telluride Ski & Golf Resort in 2004. It's the only resort Horning has ever owned and over the last 21 years, he has fired several veteran ski area executives — including, earlier this year, his son, Chad.Now, unnamed locals have launched a website, publicly detailing the resort owner's messy management of the Telluride ski area and other businesses across the country.“For years, Chuck Horning has caused harm to us all, both individually and collectively,” reads the opening paragraph of ChuckChuck.ski — which originated when a Telluride councilman in March said that it was “time to chuck Chuck.” “The community deserves something better. For years, we've whispered about the stories, the incidents, the poor decisions we've witnessed. Those stories should no longer be kept secret from everyone that relies on our ski resort for our wellbeing.”The chuckchuck.ski site drags skeletons out of Horning's closet. There are a lot of skeletons in there. The website details a long history of lawsuits across the country accusing Horning and the Newport Federal Financial investment firm he founded in 1970 of fraud.It's a pretty amazing site.On Bogus BasinI was surprised that ostensibly for-profit Meadows regularly re-invests 100 percent of profits into the ski area. Such a model is more typical for explicitly nonprofit outfits such as Bogus Basin, Idaho. Longtime GM Brad Wilson outlined how that ski area functions a few years back:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication (and my full-time job). To receive new posts and to support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.WhoChris Cushing, Principal of Mountain Planning at SE GroupRecorded onApril 3, 2025About SE GroupFrom the company's website:WE AREMountain planners, landscape architects, environmental analysts, and community and recreation planners. From master planning to conceptual design and permitting, we are your trusted partner in creating exceptional experiences and places.WE BELIEVEThat human and ecological wellbeing forms the foundation for thriving communities.WE EXISTTo enrich people's lives through the power of outdoor recreation.If that doesn't mean anything to you, then this will:Why I interviewed himNature versus nurture: God throws together the recipe, we bake the casserole. A way to explain humans. Sure he's six foot nine, but his mom dropped him into the intensive knitting program at Montessori school 232, so he can't play basketball for s**t. Or identical twins, separated at birth. One grows up as Sir Rutherford Ignacious Beaumont XIV and invents time travel. The other grows up as Buford and is the number seven at Okey-Doke's Quick Oil Change & Cannabis Emporium. The guts matter a lot, but so does the food.This is true of ski areas as well. An earthquake here, a glacier there, maybe a volcanic eruption, and, presto: a non-flat part of the earth on which we may potentially ski. The rest is up to us.It helps if nature was thoughtful enough to add slopes of varying but consistent pitch, a suitable rise from top to bottom, a consistent supply of snow, a flat area at the base, and some sort of natural conduit through which to move people and vehicles. But none of that is strictly necessary. Us humans (nurture), can punch green trails across solid-black fall lines (Jackson Hole), bulldoze a bigger hill (Caberfae), create snow where the clouds decline to (Wintergreen, 2022-23), plant the resort base at the summit (Blue Knob), or send skiers by boat (Eaglecrest).Someone makes all that happen. In North America, that someone is often SE Group, or their competitor, Ecosign. SE Group helps ski areas evolve into even better ski areas. That means helping to plan terrain expansions, lift replacements, snowmaking upgrades, transit connections, parking enhancements, and whatever built environment is under the ski area's control. SE Group is often the machine behind those Forest Service ski area master development plans that I so often spotlight. For example, Vail Mountain:When I talk about Alta consolidating seven slow lifts into four fast lifts; or Little Switzerland carving their mini-kingdom into beginner, parkbrah, and racer domains; or Mount Bachelor boosting its power supply to run more efficiently, this is the sort of thing that SE plots out (I'm not certain if they were involved in any or all of those projects).Analyzing this deliberate crafting of a natural bump into a human playground is the core of what The Storm is. I love, skiing, sure, but specifically lift-served skiing. I'm sure it's great to commune with the raccoons or whatever it is you people do when you discuss “skinning” and “AT setups.” But nature left a few things out. Such as: ski patrol, evacuation sleds, avalanche control, toilet paper, water fountains, firepits, and a place to charge my phone. Oh and chairlifts. And directional signs with trail ratings. And a snack bar.Skiing is torn between competing and contradictory narratives: the misanthropic, which hates crowds and most skiers not deemed sufficiently hardcore; the naturalistic, which mistakes ski resorts with the bucolic experience that is only possible in the backcountry; the preservationist, with its museum-ish aspirations to glasswall the obsolete; the hyperactive, insisting on all fast lifts and groomed runs; the fatalists, who assume inevitable death-of-concept in a warming world.None of these quite gets it. Ski areas are centers of joy and memory and bonhomie and possibility. But they are also (mostly), businesses. They are also parks, designed to appeal to as many skiers as possible. They are centers of organized risk, softened to minimize catastrophic outcomes. They must enlist machine aid to complement natural snowfall and move skiers up those meddlesome but necessary hills. Ski areas are nature, softened and smoothed and labelled by their civilized stewards, until the land is not exactly a representation of either man or God, but a strange and wonderful hybrid of both.What we talked aboutOld-school Cottonwoods vibe; “the Ikon Pass has just changed the industry so dramatically”; how to become a mountain planner for a living; what the mountain-planning vocation looked like in the mid-1980s; the detachable lift arrives; how to consolidate lifts without sacrificing skier experience; when is a lift not OK?; a surface lift resurgence?; how sanctioned glades changed ski areas; the evolution of terrain parks away from mega-features; the importance of terrain parks to small ski areas; reworking trails to reduce skier collisions; the curse of the traverse; making Jackson more approachable; on terrain balance; how megapasses are redistributing skier visits; how to expand a ski area without making traffic worse; ski areas that could evolve into major destinations; and ski area as public park or piece of art.What I got wrong* I blanked on the name of the famous double chair at A-Basin. It is Pallavicini.* I called Crystal Mountain's two-seater served terrain “North Country or whatever” – it is actually called “Northway.”* I said that Deer Valley would become the fourth- or fifth-largest ski resort in the nation once its expansion was finished. It will become the sixth-largest, at 4,926 acres, when the next expansion phase opens for winter 2025-26, and will become the fourth-largest, at 5,726 acres, at full build out.* I estimated Kendall Mountain's current lift-served ski footprint at 200 vertical feet; it is 240 feet.Why now was a good time for this interviewWe have a tendency, particularly in outdoor circles, to lionize the natural and shame the human. Development policy in the United States leans heavily toward “don't,” even in areas already designated for intensive recreation. We mustn't, plea activists: expand the Palisades Tahoe base village; build a gondola up Little Cottonwood Canyon; expand ski terrain contiguous with already-existing ski terrain at Grand Targhee.I understand these impulses, but I believe they are misguided. Intensive but thoughtful, human-scaled development directly within and adjacent to already-disturbed lands is the best way to limit the larger-scale, long-term manmade footprint that chews up vast natural tracts. That is: build 1,000 beds in what is now a bleak parking lot at Palisades Tahoe, and you limit the need for homes to be carved out of surrounding forests, and for hundreds of cars to daytrip into the ski area. Done right, you even create a walkable community of the sort that America conspicuously lacks.To push back against, and gradually change, the Culture of No fueling America's mountain town livability crises, we need exhibits of these sorts of projects actually working. More Whistlers (built from scratch in the 1980s to balance tourism and community) and fewer Aspens (grandfathered into ski town status with a classic street and building grid, but compromised by profiteers before we knew any better). This is the sort of work SE is doing: how do we build a better interface between civilization and nature, so that the former complements, rather than spoils, the latter?All of which is a little tangential to this particular podcast conversation, which focuses mostly on the ski areas themselves. But America's ski centers, established largely in the middle of the last century, are aging with the towns around them. Just about everything, from lifts to lodges to roads to pipes, has reached replacement age. Replacement is a burden, but also an opportunity to create a better version of something. Our ski areas will not only have faster lifts and newer snowguns – they will have fewer lifts and fewer guns that carry more people and make more snow, just as our built footprint, thoughtfully designed, can provide more homes for more people on less space and deliver more skiers with fewer vehicles.In a way, this podcast is almost a canonical Storm conversation. It should, perhaps, have been episode one, as every conversation since has dealt with some version of this question: how do humans sculpt a little piece of nature into a snowy park that we visit for fun? That is not an easy or obvious question to answer, which is why SE Group exists. Much as I admire our rough-and-tumble Dave McCoy-type founders, that improvisational style is trickier to execute in our highly regulated, activist present.And so we rely on artist-architects of the SE sort, who inject the natural with the human without draining what is essential from either. Done well, this crafted experience feels wild. Done poorly – as so much of our legacy built environment has been – and you generate resistance to future development, even if that future development is better. But no one falls in love with a blueprint. Experiencing a ski area as whatever it is you think a ski area should be is something you have to feel. And though there is a sort of magic animating places like Alta and Taos and Mammoth and Mad River Glen and Mount Bohemia, some ineffable thing that bleeds from the earth, these ski areas are also outcomes of a human-driven process, a determination to craft the best version of skiing that could exist for mass human consumption on that shred of the planet.Podcast NotesOn MittersillMittersill, now part of Cannon Mountain, was once a separate ski area. It petered out in the mid-‘80s, then became a sort of Cannon backcountry zone circa 2009. The Mittersill double arrived in 2010, followed by a T-bar in 2016.On chairlift consolidationI mention several ski areas that replaced a bunch of lifts with fewer lifts:The HighlandsIn 2023, Boyne-owned The Highlands wiped out three ancient Riblet triples and replaced them with this glorious bubble six-pack:Here's a before-and-after:Vernon Valley-Great Gorge/Mountain CreekI've called Intrawest's transformation of Vernon Valley-Great Gorge into Mountain Creek “perhaps the largest single-season overhaul of a ski area in the history of lift-served skiing.” Maybe someone can prove me wrong, but just look at this place circa 1989:It looked substantively the same in 1998, when, in a single summer, Intrawest tore out 18 lifts – 15 double chairs, two platters, and a T-bar, plus God knows how many ropetows – and replaced them with two high-speed quads, two fixed-grip quads, and a bucket-style Cabriolet lift that every normal ski area uses as a parking lot transit machine:I discussed this incredible transformation with current Hermitage Club GM Bill Benneyan, who worked at Mountain Creek in 1998, back in 2020:I misspoke on the podcast, saying that Intrawest had pulled out “something like a dozen lifts” and replaced them with “three or four” in 1998.KimberleyBack in the time before social media, Kimberley, British Columbia ran four frontside chairlifts: a high-speed quad, a triple, a double, and a T-bar:Beginning in 2001, the ski area slowly removed everything except the quad. Which was fine until an arsonist set fire to Kimberley's North Star Express in 2021, meaning skiers had no lift-served option to the backside terrain:I discussed this whole strange sequence of events with Andy Cohen, longtime GM of sister resort Fernie, on the podcast last year:On Revelstoke's original masterplanIt is astonishing that Revelstoke serves 3,121 acres with just five lifts: a gondola, two high-speed quads, a fixed quad, and a carpet. Most Midwest ski areas spin three times more lifts for three percent of the terrain.On Priest Creek and Sundown at SteamboatSteamboat, like many ski areas, once ran two parallel fixed-grip lifts on substantively the same line, with the Priest Creek double and the Sundown triple. The Sundown Express quad arrived in 1992, but Steamboat left Priest Creek standing for occasional overflow until 2021. Here's Steamboat circa 1990:Priest Creek is gone, but that entire 1990 lift footprint is nearly unrecognizable. Huge as Steamboat is, every arriving skier squeezes in through a single portal. One of Alterra's first priorities was to completely re-imagine the base area: sliding the existing gondola looker's right; installing an additional 10-person, two-stage gondola right beside it; and moving the carpets and learning center to mid-mountain:On upgrades at A-BasinWe discuss several upgrades at A-Basin, including Lenawee, Beavers, and Pallavicini. Here's the trailmap for context:On moguls on Kachina Peak at TaosYeah I'd say this lift draws some traffic:On the T-bar at Waterville ValleyWaterville Valley opened in 1966. Fifty-two years later, mountain officials finally acknowledged that chairlifts do not work on the mountain's top 400 vertical feet. All it took was a forced 1,585-foot shortening of the resort's base-to-summit high-speed quad just eight years after its 1988 installation and the legacy double chair's continued challenges in wind to say, “yeah maybe we'll just spend 90 percent less to install a lift that's actually appropriate for this terrain.” That was the High Country T-bar, which arrived in 2018. It is insane to look at ‘90s maps of Waterville pre- and post-chop job:On Hyland Hills, MinnesotaWhat an insanely amazing place this is:On Sunrise ParkFrom 1983 to 2017, Sunrise Park, Arizona was home to the most amazing triple chair, a 7,982-foot-long Yan with 352 carriers. Cyclone, as it was known, fell apart at some point and the resort neglected to fix or replace it. A couple of years ago, they re-opened the terrain to lift-served skiing with a low-cost alternative: stringing a ropetow from a green run off the Geronimo lift to where Cyclone used to land.On Woodward Park City and BorealPowdr has really differentiated itself with its Woodward terrain parks, which exist at amazing scale at Copper and Bachelor. The company has essentially turned two of its smaller ski areas – Boreal and Woodward Park City – entirely over to terrain parks.On Killington's tunnelsYou have to zoom in, but you can see them on the looker's right side of the trailmap: Bunny Buster at Great Northern, Great Bear at Great Northern, and Chute at Great Northern.On Jackson Hole traversesJackson is steep. Engineers hacked it so kids like mine could ride there:On expansions at Beaver Creek, Keystone, AspenRecent Colorado expansions have tended to create vast zones tailored to certain levels of skiers:Beaver Creek's McCoy Park is an incredible top-of-the-mountain green zone:Keystone's Bergman Bowl planted a high-speed six-pack to serve 550 acres of high-altitude intermediate terrain:And Aspen – already one of the most challenging mountains in the country – added Hero's – a fierce black-diamond zone off the summit:On Wilbere at SnowbirdWilbere is an example of a chairlift that kept the same name, even as Snowbird upgraded it from a double to a quad and significantly moved the load station and line:On ski terrain growth in AmericaYes, a bunch of ski areas have disappeared since the 1980s, but the raw amount of ski terrain has been increasing steadily over the decades:On White Pine, WyomingCushing referred to White Pine as a “dinky little ski area” with lots of potential. Here's a look at the thousand-footer, which billionaire Joe Ricketts purchased last year:On Deer Valley's expansionYeah, Deer Valley is blowing up:On Schweitzer's growthSchweitzer's transformation has been dramatic: in 1988, the Idaho panhandle resort occupied a large footprint that was served mostly by double chairs:Today: a modern ski area, with four detach quads, a sixer, and two newer triples – only one old chairlift remains:On BC transformationsA number of British Columbia ski areas have transformed from nubbins to majors over the past 30 years:Sun Peaks, then known as Tod Mountain, in 1993Sun Peaks today:Fernie in 1996, pre-upward expansion:Fernie today:Revelstoke, then known as Mount Mackenzie, in 1996:Modern Revy:Kicking Horse, then known as “Whitetooth” in 1994:Kicking Horse today:On Tamarack's expansion potentialTamarack sits mostly on Idaho state land, and would like to expand onto adjacent U.S. Forest Service land. Resort President Scott Turlington discussed these plans in depth with me on the pod a few years back:The mountain's plans have changed since, with a smaller lift footprint:On Central Park as a manmade placeNew York City's fabulous Central Park is another chunk of earth that may strike a visitor as natural, but is in fact a manmade work of art crafted from the wilderness. Per the Central Park Conservancy, which, via a public-private partnership with the city, provides the majority of funds, labor, and logistical support to maintain the sprawling complex:A popular misconception about Central Park is that its 843 acres are the last remaining natural land in Manhattan. While it is a green sanctuary inside a dense, hectic metropolis, this urban park is entirely human-made. It may look like it's naturally occurring, but the flora, landforms, water, and other features of Central Park have not always existed.Every acre of the Park was meticulously designed and built as part of a larger composition—one that its designers conceived as a "single work of art." Together, they created the Park through the practice that would come to be known as "landscape architecture."The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication (and my full-time job). To receive new posts and to support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.WhoJoe Hession, CEO of Snow Partners, which owns Mountain Creek, Big Snow American Dream, SnowCloud, and Terrain Based LearningRecorded onMay 2, 2025About Snow PartnersSnow Partners owns and operates Mountain Creek, New Jersey and Big Snow American Dream, the nation's only indoor ski center. The company also developed SnowCloud resort management software and has rolled out its Terrain Based Learning system at more than 80 ski areas worldwide. They do some other things that I don't really understand (there's a reason that I write about skiing and not particle physics), that you can read about on their website.About Mountain CreekLocated in: Vernon Township, New JerseyClosest neighboring public ski areas: Mount Peter (:24); Big Snow American Dream (:50); Campgaw (:51) Pass affiliations: Snow Triple Play, up to two anytime daysBase elevation: 440 feetSummit elevation: 1,480 feetVertical drop: 1,040 feetSkiable Acres: 167Average annual snowfall: 65 inchesTrail count: 46Lift count: 9 (1 Cabriolet, 2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Mountain Creek's lift fleet)About Big Snow American DreamLocated in: East Rutherford, New JerseyClosest neighboring public ski areas: Campgaw (:35); Mountain Creek (:50); Mount Peter (:50)Pass affiliations: Snow Triple Play, up to two anytime daysVertical drop: 160 feet Skiable Acres: 4Trail count: 4 (2 green, 1 blue, 1 black)Lift count: 4 (1 quad, 1 poma, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog's of inventory of Big Snow American Dream's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himI read this earlier today:The internet is full of smart people writing beautiful prose about how bad everything is, how it all sucks, how it's embarrassing to like anything, how anything that appears good is, in fact, secretly bad. I find this confusing and tragic, like watching Olympic high-jumpers catapult themselves into a pit of tarantulas.That blurb was one of 28 “slightly rude notes on writing” offered in Adam Mastroianni's Experimental History newsletter. And I thought, “Man this dude must follow #SkiTwitter.” Or Instabook. Of Flexpost. Or whatever. Because online ski content, both short- and long-form, is, while occasionally joyous and evocative, disproportionately geared toward the skiing-is-fucked-and-this-is-why worldview. The passes suck. The traffic sucks. The skiers suck. The prices suck. The parking sucks. The Duopoly sucks. Everyone's a Jerry, chewing up my pow line with their GoPro selfie sticks hoisted high and their Ikon Passes dangling from their zippers. Skiing is corporate and soulless and tourist obsessed and doomed anyway because of climate change. Don't tell me you're having a good time doing this very fun thing. People like you are the reason skiing's soul now shops at Wal-Mart. Go back to Texas and drink a big jug of oil, you Jerry!It's all so… f*****g dumb. U.S. skiing just wrapped its second-best season of attendance. The big passes, while imperfect, are mostly a force for good, supercharging on-hill infrastructure investment, spreading skiers across geographies, stabilizing a once-storm-dependent industry, and lowering the per-day price of skiing for the most avid among us to 1940s levels. Snowmaking has proven an effective bulwark against shifting weather patterns. Lift-served skiing is not a dying pastime, financially or spiritually or ecologically. Yes, modern skiing has problems: expensive food (pack a lunch); mountain-town housing shortages (stop NIMBY-ing everything); traffic (yay car culture); peak-day crowds (don't go then); exploding insurance, labor, utilities, and infrastructure costs (I have no answers). But in most respects, this is a healthy, thriving, constantly evolving industry, and a more competitive one than the Duopoly Bros would admit.Snow Partners proves this. Because what the hell is Snow Partners? It's some company sewn together by a dude who used to park cars at Mountain Creek. Ten years ago this wasn't a thing, and now it's this wacky little conglomerate that owns a bespoke resort tech platform and North America's only snowdome and the impossible, ridiculous Mountain Creek. And they're going to build a bunch more snowdomes that stamp new skiers out by the millions and maybe – I don't know but maybe – become the most important company in the history of lift-served skiing in the process.Could such an outfit possibly have materialized were the industry so corrupted as the Brobot Pundit Bros declare it? Vail is big. Alterra is big. But the two companies combined control just 53 of America's 501 active ski areas. Big ski areas, yes. Big shadows. But neither created: Indy Pass, Power Pass, Woodward Parks, Terrain Based Learning, Mountain Collective, RFID, free skiing for kids, California Mountain Resort Company, or $99 season passes. Neither saved Holiday Mountain or Hatley Pointe or Norway Mountain or Timberline West Virigina from the scrapheap, or transformed a failing Black Mountain into a co-op. Neither has proven they can successfully run a ski area in Indiana (sorry Vail #SickBurn #SellPaoliPeaks #Please).Skiing, at this moment, is a glorious mix of ideas and energy. I realize it makes me uncool to think so, but I signed off on those aspirations the moment I drove the minivan off the Chrysler lot (topped it off with a roofbox, too, Pimp). Anyhow, the entire point of this newsletter is to track down the people propelling change in a sport that most likely predates the written word and ask them why they're doing these novel things to make an already cool and awesome thing even more cool and awesome. And no one, right now, is doing more cool and awesome things in skiing than Snow Partners.**That's not exactly true. Mountain Capital Partners, Alterra, Ikon Pass, Deer Valley, Entabeni Systems, Jon Schaefer, the Perfect Clan, Boyne Resorts, Big Sky, Mt. Bohemia, Powdr, Vail Resorts, Midwest Family Ski Resorts, and a whole bunch more entities/individuals/coalitions are also contributing massively to skiing's rapid-fire rewiring in the maw of the robot takeover digital industrial revolution. But, hey, when you're in the midst of transforming an entire snow-based industry from a headquarters in freaking New Jersey, you get a hyperbolic bump in the file card description.What we talked aboutThe Snow Triple Play; potential partners; “there's this massive piece of the market that's like ‘I don't even understand what you're talking about'” with big day ticket prices and low-priced season passes; why Mountain Creek sells its Triple Play all season long and why the Snow Triple Play won't work that way (at least at first); M.A.X. Pass and why Mountain Creek declined to join successor passes; an argument for Vail, Alterra and other large ski companies to participate on the Snow Triple Play; comparing skiing to hotels, airlines, and Disney World; “the next five years are going to be the most interesting and disruptive time in the ski industry because of technology”; “we don't compete with anybody”; Liftopia's potential, errors, failure, and legacy; skiing on Groupon; considering Breckenridge as an independent ski area; what a “premium” ski area on the Snow Triple Play would be; why megapasses are “selling people a product that will never be used the way it's sold to them”; why people in NYC feel like going to Mountain Creek, an hour over the George Washington Bridge, is “going to Alaska”; why Snow Triple Play will “never” add a fourth day; sticker shock for Big Snow newbs who emerge from the Dome wanting more; SnowCloud and the tech and the guest journey from parking lot to lifts; why Mountain Creek stopped mailing season passes; Bluetooth Low Energy “is certainly the future of passes”; “100 percent we're getting more Big Snows” – but let's justify the $175 million investment first; Big Snow has a “terrible” design; “I don't see why every city shouldn't have a Big Snow” and which markets Snow Partners is talking to; why Mountain Creek didn't get the mega-lift Hession teased on this pod three years ago and when we could see one; “I really believe that the Vernon base of Mountain Creek needs an updated chair”; the impact of automated snowmaking at Mountain Creek; and a huge residential project incoming at Mountain Creek.What I got wrong* I said that Hession wasn't involved in Mountain Creek in the M.A.X. Pass era, but he was an Intrawest employee at the time, and was Mountain Creek's GM until 2012.* I hedged on whether Boyne's Explorer multi-day pass started at two or three days. Skiers can purchase the pass in three- to six-day increments.Why now was a good time for this interviewOkay, so I'll admit that when Snow Partners summarized the Snow Triple Play for me, I wasn't like “Holy crap, three days (total) at up to three different ski areas on a single ski pass? Do you think they have room for another head on Mount Rushmore?” This multi-day pass is a straightforward product that builds off a smart idea (the Mountain Creek Triple Play), that has been a smash hit at the Jersey Snow Jungle since at least 2008. But Snow Triple Play doesn't rank alongside Epic, Ikon, Indy, or Mountain Collective as a seasonlong basher. This is another frequency product in a market already flush with them.So why did I dedicate an entire podcast and two articles (so far) to dissecting this product, which Hession makes pretty clear has no ambitions to grow into some Indy/Ikon/Epic competitor? Because it is the first product to tie Big Snow to the wider ski world. And Big Snow only works if it is step one and there is an obvious step two. Right now, that step two is hard, even in a region ripe with ski areas. The logistics are confounding, the one-off cost hard to justify. Lift tickets, gear rentals, getting your ass to the bump and back, food, maybe a lesson. The Snow Triple Play doesn't solve all of these problems, but it does narrow an impossible choice down to a manageable one by presenting skiers with a go-here-next menu. If Snow Partners can build a compelling (or at least logical) Northeast network and then scale it across the country as the company opens more Big Snows in more cities, then this simple pass could evolve into an effective toolkit for building new skiers.OK, so why not just join Indy or Mountain Collective, or forge some sort of newb-to-novice agreement with Epic or Ikon? That would give Snow Partners the stepladder, without the administrative hassle of owning a ski pass. But that brings us to another roadblock in Ski Revolution 2025: no one wants to share partners. So Hession is trying to flip the narrative. Rather than locking Big Snow into one confederacy or the other, he wants the warring armies to lash their fleets along Snow Partners Pier. Big Snow is just the bullet factory, or the gas station, or the cornfield – the thing that all the armies need but can't supply themselves. You want new skiers? We got ‘em. They're ready. They just need a map to your doorstep. And we're happy to draw you one.Podcast NotesOn the Snow Triple PlayThe basics: three total days, max of two used at any one partner ski area, no blackouts at Big Snow or Mountain Creek, possible blackouts at partner resorts, which are TBD.The pass, which won't be on sale until Labor Day, is fully summarized here:And I speculate on potential partners here:On the M.A.X. PassFor its short, barely noted existence, the M.A.X. Pass was kind of an amazing hack, granting skiers five days each at an impressive blend of regional and destination ski areas:Much of this roster migrated over to Ikon, but in taking their pass' name too literally, the Alterra folks left off some really compelling regional ski areas that could have established a hub-and-spoke network out of the gate. Lutsen and Granite Peak owner Charles Skinner told me on the podcast a few years back that Ikon never offered his ski areas membership (they joined Indy in 2020), cutting out two of the Midwest's best mountains. The omissions of Mountain Creek, Wachusett, and the New York trio of Belleayre, Whiteface, and Gore ceded huge swaths of the dense and monied Northeast to competitors who saw value in smaller, high-end operations that are day-trip magnets for city folks who also want that week at Deer Valley (no other pass signed any of these mountains, but Vail and Indy both assembled better networks of day-drivers and destinations).On my 2022 interview with HessionOn LiftopiaLiftopia's website is still live, but I'm not sure how many ski areas participate in this Expedia-for-lift-tickets. Six years ago, I thought Liftopia was the next bargain evolution of lift-served skiing. I even hosted founder Evan Reece on one of my first 10 podcasts. The whole thing fell apart when Covid hit. An overview here:On various other day-pass productsI covered this in my initial article, but here's how the Snow Triple Play stacks up against other three-day multi-resort products:On Mountain Creek not mailing passesI don't know anything about tech, but I know, from a skier's point of view, when something works well and when it doesn't. Snow Cloud's tech is incredible in at least one customer-facing respect: when you show up at a ski area, a rep standing in a conspicuous place is waiting with an iPhone, with which they scan a QR code on your phone, and presto-magico: they hand you your ski pass. No lines or waiting. One sentimental casualty of this on-site efficiency was the mailed ski pass, an autumn token of coming winter to be plucked gingerly from the mailbox. And this is fine and makes sense, in the same way that tearing down chairlifts constructed of brontosaurus bones and mastodon hides makes sense, but I must admit that I miss these annual mailings in the same way that I miss paper event tickets and ski magazines. My favorite ski mailing ever, in fact, was not Ikon's glossy fold-out complete with a 1,000-piece 3D jigsaw puzzle of the Wild Blue Gondola and name-a-snowflake-after-your-dog kit, but this simple pamphlet dropped into the envelope with my 2018-19 Mountain Creek season pass:Just f*****g beautiful, Man. That hung on my office wall for years. On the CabrioletThis is just such a wackadoodle ski lift:Onetime Mountain Creek owner Intrawest built similar lifts at Winter Park and Tremblant, but as transit lifts from the parking lot. This one at Mountain Creek is the only one that I'm aware of that's used as an open-air gondola. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and to support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.WhoTyler Fairbank, General Manager of Jiminy Peak, Massachusetts and CEO of Fairbank GroupRecorded onFebruary 10, 2025 and March 7, 2025About Fairbank GroupFrom their website:The Fairbank Group is driven to build things to last – not only our businesses but the relationships and partnerships that stand behind them. Since 2008, we have been expanding our eclectic portfolio of businesses. This portfolio includes three resorts—Jiminy Peak Mountain Resort, Cranmore Mountain Resort, and Bromley Mountain Ski Resort—and real estate development at all three resorts, in addition to a renewable energy development company, EOS Ventures, and a technology company, Snowgun Technology.About Jiminy PeakClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Fairbank Group, which also owns Cranmore and operates Bromley (see breakdowns below)Located in: Hancock, MassachusettsYear founded: 1948Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 2 days, with blackouts* Uphill New EnglandClosest neighboring ski areas: Bousquet (:27), Catamount (:49), Butternut (:51), Otis Ridge (:54), Berkshire East (:58), Willard (1:02)Base elevation: 1,230 feetSummit elevation: 2,380 feetVertical drop: 1,150 feetSkiable acres: 167.4Average annual snowfall: 100 inchesTrail count: 42Lift count: 9 (1 six-pack, 2 fixed-grip quads, 3 triples, 1 double, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Jiminy Peak's lift fleet)About CranmoreClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Fairbank GroupLocated in: North Conway, New HampshireYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations: * Ikon Pass: 2 days, with blackouts* Uphill New EnglandClosest neighboring ski areas: Attitash (:16), Black Mountain (:18), King Pine (:28), Wildcat (:28), Pleasant Mountain (:33), Bretton Woods (:42)Base elevation: 800 feetSummit elevation: 2,000 feetVertical drop: 1,200 feetSkiable Acres: 170 Average annual snowfall: 80 inchesTrail count: 56 (15 most difficult, 25 intermediate, 16 easier)Lift count: 7 (1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 1 double, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Cranmore's lift fleet)About BromleyClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The estate of Joseph O'DonnellOperated by: The Fairbank GroupPass affiliations: Uphill New EnglandLocated in: Peru, VermontClosest neighboring ski areas: Magic Mountain (14 minutes), Stratton (19 minutes)Base elevation: 1,950 feetSummit elevation: 3,284 feetVertical drop: 1,334 feetSkiable Acres: 300Average annual snowfall: 145 inchesTrail count: 47 (31% black, 37% intermediate, 32% beginner)Lift count: 9 (1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 4 doubles, 1 T-bar, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog's of inventory of Bromley's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himI don't particularly enjoy riding six-passenger chairlifts. Too many people, up to five of whom are not me. Lacking a competent queue-management squad, chairs rise in loads of twos and threes above swarming lift mazes. If you're skiing the West, lowering the bar is practically an act of war. It's all so tedious. Given the option – Hunter, Winter Park, Camelback – I'll hop the parallel two-seater just to avoid the drama.I don't like six-packs, but I sure am impressed by them. Sixers are the chairlift equivalent of a two-story Escalade, or a house with its own private Taco Bell, or a 14-lane expressway. Like damn there's some cash floating around this joint.Sixers are common these days: America is home to 107 of them. But that wasn't always so. Thirty-two of these lifts came online in just the past three years. Boyne Mountain, Michigan built the first American six-pack in 1992, and for three years, it was the only such lift in the nation (and don't think they didn't spend every second reminding us of it). The next sixer rose at Stratton, in 1995, but 18 of the next 19 were built in the West. In 2000, Jiminy Peak demolished a Riblet double and dropped the Berkshire Express in its place.For 26 years, Jiminy Peak has owned the only sixer in the State of Massachusetts (Wachusett will build the second this summer). Even as they multiply, the six-pack remains a potent small-mountain status symbol: Vail owns 31 or them, Alterra 30. Only 10 independents spin one. Sixers are expensive to build, expensive to maintain, difficult to manage. To build such a machine is to declare: we are different, we can handle this, this belongs here and so does your money.Sixty years ago, Jiminy Peak was a rump among a hundred poking out of the Berkshires. It would have been impossible to tell, in 1965, which among these many would succeed. Plenty of good ski areas failed since. Jiminy is among the last mountains standing, a survival-of-the-fittest tale punctuated, at the turn of the century, by the erecting of a super lift that was impossible to look away from. That neighboring Brodie, taller and equal-ish in size to Jiminy, shuttered permanently two years later, after a 62-year run as a New England staple, was probably not a coincidence (yes, I'm aware that the Fairbanks themselves bought and closed Brodie). Jiminy had planted its 2,800-skier-per-hour flag on the block, and everyone noticed and no one could compete.The Berkshire Express is not the only reason Jiminy Peak thrives in a 21st century New England ski scene defined by big companies, big passes, and big crowds. But it's the best single emblem of a keep-moving philosophy that, over many decades, transformed a rust-bucket ski area into a glimmering ski resort. That meant snowmaking before snowmaking was cool, building places to stay on the mountain in a region of day-drivers, propping a wind turbine on the ridge to offset dependence on the energy grid.Non-ski media are determined to describe America's lift-served skiing evolution in terms of climate change, pointing to the shrinking number of ski areas since the era when any farmer with a backyard haystack and a spare tractor engine could run skiers uphill for a nickel. But this is a lazy narrative (America offers a lot more skiing now than it did 30 years ago). Most American ski areas – perhaps none – have failed explicitly because of climate change. At least not yet. Most failed because running a ski area is hard and most people are bad at it. Jiminy, once surrounded by competitors, now stands alone. Why? That's what the world needs to understand.What we talked aboutThe impact of Cranmore's new Fairbank Lodge; analyzing Jiminy's village-building past to consider Cranmore's future; Bromley post-Joe O'Donnell (RIP); Joe's legacy – “just an incredible person, great guy”; taking the long view; growing up at Jiminy Peak in the wild 1970s; Brian Fairbank's legacy building Jiminy Peak – with him, “anything is possible”; how Tyler ended up leading the company when he at one time had “no intention of coming back into the ski business”; growing Fairbank Group around Jiminy; surviving and recovering from a stroke – “I had this thing growing in me my entire life that I didn't realize”; carrying on the family legacy; why Jiminy and Cranmore joined the Ikon Pass as two-day partners, and whether either mountain could join as full partners; why Bromley didn't join Ikon; the importance of New York City to Jiminy Peak and Boston to Cranmore; why the ski areas won't be direct-to-lift with Ikon right away; are the Fairbank resorts for sale?; would Fairbank buy more?; the competitive advantage of on-mountain lodging; potential Jiminy lift upgrades; why the Berkshire Express sixer doesn't need an upgrade of the sort that Cranmore and Bromley's high-speed quads received; why Jiminy runs a fixed-grip triple parallel to its high-speed six; where the mountain's next high-speed lift could run; and Jiminy Peak expansion potential.What I got wrong* I said that I didn't know which year Jiminy Peak installed their wind turbine – it was 2007. Berkshire East built its machine in 2010 and activated it in 2011.* When we recorded the Ikon addendum, Cranmore and Jiminy Peak had not yet offered any sort of Ikon Pass discount to their passholders, but Tyler promised details were coming. Passholders can now find offers for a discounted ($229) three-day Ikon Session pass on either ski area's website.Why now was a good time for this interviewFor all the Fairbanks' vision in growing Jiminy from tumbleweed into redwood, sprinting ahead on snowmaking and chairlifts and energy, the company has been slow to acknowledge the largest shift in the consumer-to-resort pipeline this century: the shift to multi-mountain passes. Even their own three mountains share just one day each for sister resort passholders.That's not the same thing as saying they've been wrong to sit and wait. But it's interesting. Why has this company that's been so far ahead for so long been so reluctant to take part in what looks to be a permanent re-ordering of the industry? And why have they continued to succeed in spite of this no-thanks posture?Or so my thinking went when Tyler and I scheduled this podcast a couple of months ago. Then Jiminy, along with sister resort Cranmore, joined the Ikon Pass. Yes, just as a two-day partner in what Alterra is labeling a “bonus” tier, and only on the full Ikon Pass, and with blackout dates. But let's be clear about this: Jiminy Peak and Cranmore joined the Ikon Pass.Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), for me and my Pangea-paced editing process, we'd recorded the bulk of this conversation several weeks before the Ikon announcement. So we recorded a post-Ikon addendum, which explains the mid-podcast wardrobe change.It will be fascinating to observe, over the next decade, how the remaining holdouts manage themselves in the Epkon-atronic world that is not going away. Will big indies such as Jackson Hole and Alta eventually eject the pass masses as a sort of high-class differentiator? Will large regional standouts like Whitefish and Bretton Woods and Baker and Wolf Creek continue to stand alone in a churning sea of joiners? Or will some economic cataclysm force a re-ordering of the companies piloting these warships, splintering them into woodchips and resetting us back to some version of 1995, where just about every ski area was its own ski area doing battle against every other ski area?I have guesses, but no answers, and no power to do anything, really, other than to watch and ask questions of the Jiminy Peaks of the world as they decide where they fit, and how, and when, into this bizarre and rapidly changing lift-served skiing world that we're all gliding through.Why you should ski Jiminy PeakThere are several versions of each ski area. The trailmap version, cartoonish and exaggerated, designed to be evocative as well as practical, a guide to reality that must bend it to help us understand it. There's the Google Maps version, which straightens out the trailmap but ditches the order and context – it is often difficult to tell, from satellite view, which end of the hill is the top or the bottom, where the lifts run, whether you can walk to the lifts from the parking lot or need to shuttlebus it. There is the oral version, the one you hear from fellow chairlift riders at other resorts, describing their home mountain or an epic day or a secret trail, a vibe or a custom, the thing that makes the place a thing.But the only version of a ski area that matters, in the end, is the lived one. And no amount of research or speculation or YouTube-Insta vibing can equal that. Each mountain is what each mountain is. Determining why they are that way and how that came to be is about 80 percent of why I started this newsletter. And the best mountains, I've found, after skiing hundreds of them, are the ones that surprise you.On paper, Jiminy Peak does not look that interesting: a broad ridge, flat across, a bunch of parallel lifts and runs, a lot of too-wide-and-straight-down. But this is not how it skis. Break left off the sixer and it's go-forever, line after line dropping steeply off a ridge. Down there, somewhere, the Widow White's lift, a doorway to a mini ski area all its own, shooting off, like Supreme at Alta, into a twisting little realm with the long flat runout. Go right off the six-pack and skiers find something else, a ski area from a different time, a trunk trail wrapping gently above a maze of twisting, tangled snow-streets, dozens of potential routes unfolding, gentle but interesting, long enough to inspire a sense of quest and journey.This is not the mountain for everyone. I wish Jiminy had more glades, that they would spin more lifts more often as an alternative to Six-Pack City. But we have Berkshire East for cowboy skiing. Jiminy, an Albany backyarder that considers itself worthy of a $1,051 adult season pass, is aiming for something more buffed and burnished than a typical high-volume city bump. Jiminy doesn't want to be Mountain Creek, NYC's hedonistic free-for-all, or Wachusett, Boston's high-volume, low-cost burner. It's aiming for a little more resort, a little more country club, a little more it-costs-what-it-costs sorry-not-sorry attitude (with a side of swarming kids).Podcast NotesOn other Fairbank Group podcastsOn Joe O'DonnellA 2005 Harvard Business School profile of O'Donnell, who passed away on Jan. 7, 2024 at age 79, gives a nice overview of his character and career:When Joe O'Donnell talks, people listen. Last spring, one magazine ranked him the most powerful person in Boston-head of a privately held, billion-dollar company he built practically from scratch; friend and advisor to politicians of both parties, from Boston's Democratic Mayor Tom Menino to the Bay State's Republican Governor Mitt Romney (MBA '74); member of Harvard's Board of Overseers; and benefactor to many good causes. Not bad for a "cop's kid" who grew up nearby in the blue-collar city of Everett.Read the rest…On Joe O'Donnell “probably owning more ski areas than anyone alive”I wasn't aware of the extent of Joe O'Donnell's deep legacy of ski area ownership, but New England Ski History documents his stints as at least part owner of Magic Mountain VT, Timber Ridge (now defunct, next-door to and still skiable from Magic), Jiminy, Mt. Tom (defunct), and Brodie (also lost). He also served Sugar Mountain, North Carolina as a vendor for years.On stroke survivalKnow how to BE FAST by spending five second staring at this:More, from the CDC.On Jiminy joining the Ikon PassI covered this extensively here:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Recorded March 24, 2024 - Sunday Evening Service

Recorded March 17, 2024 - Sunday Evening Service The singers from Mountain Creek joined us this evening with Preacher Brother Scottie Calloway backing his people up on guitar, singing Because He Loved Me

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Nov. 30. It dropped for free subscribers on Dec. 7. To receive future episodes as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoMike Taylor, Owner of Holiday Mountain, New YorkRecorded onNovember 18, 2024About Holiday MountainClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Mike TaylorLocated in: Monticello, New YorkYear founded: 1957Pass affiliations: NoneClosest neighboring ski areas: Villa Roma (:37), Ski Big Bear (:56), Mt. Peter (:48), Mountain Creek (:52), Victor Constant (:54)Base elevation: 900 feetSummit elevation: 1,300 feetVertical drop: 400 feetSkiable acres: 60Average annual snowfall: 66 inchesTrail count: 9 (5 beginner, 2 intermediate, 2 advanced)Lift count: 3 (1 fixed-grip quad, 1 triple, 1 carpet - view Lift Blog's inventory of Holiday Mountain's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himNot so long ago, U.S. ski areas swung wrecking ball-like from the necks of founders who wore them like amulets. Mountain and man fused as one, each anchored to and propelled by the other, twin forces mirrored and set aglow, forged in some burbling cauldron and unleashed upon the public as an Experience. This was Killington and this was Mammoth and this was Vail and this was Squaw and this was Taos, each at once a mountain and a manifestation of psyche and soul, as though some god's hand had scooped from Pres and Dave and Pete and Al and Ernie their whimsy and hubris and willfulness and fashioned them into a cackling live thing on this earth. The men were the mountains and the mountains were the men. Everybody knew this and everybody felt this and that's why we named lifts and trails after them.This is what we've lost in the collect-them-all corporate roll-up of our current moment. I'm skeptical of applying an asteroid-ate-the-dinosaurs theory to skiing, but even I'll acknowledge this bit. When the caped founder, who stepped into raw wilderness and said “here I will build an organized snowskiing facility” and proceeded to do so, steps aside or sells to SnowCo or dies, some essence of the mountain evaporates with him. The snow still hammers and the skiers still come and the mountain still lets gravity run things. The trails remain and the fall lines still fall. The mountain is mostly the same. But nobody knows why it is that way, and the ski area becomes a disembodied thing, untethered from a human host. This, I think, is a big part of the appeal of Michigan's Mount Bohemia. Ungroomed, untamed, absent green runs and snowguns, accessible all winter on a $109 season pass, Boho is the impossible storybook of the maniac who willed it into existence against all advice and instinct: Lonie Glieberman, who hacked this thing from the wilderness not in some lost postwar decade, but in 2000. He lives there all winter and everybody knows him and they all know that this place that is the place would not exist had he not insisted that it be so. For the purposes of how skiers consider the joint, Lonie is Mount Bohemia. And someday when he goes away the mountain will make less sense than it does right now.I could write a similar paragraph about Chip Chase at White Grass Touring Center in West Virginia. But there aren't many of those fellas left. Since most of our ski areas are old, most of our founders are gone. They're not coming back, and we're not getting more ski areas. But that doesn't mean the era of the owner-soul keeper is finished. They just need to climb a different set of monkey bars to get there. Rather than trekking into the mountains to stake out and transform a raw wilderness into a piste digestible to the masses, the modern mountain incarnate needs to drive up to the ski area with a dump truck full of hundred dollar bills, pour it out onto the ground, and hope the planted seeds sprout money trees.And this is Mike Taylor. He has resources. He has energy. He has manpower. And he's going to transform this dysfunctional junkpile of a ski area into something modern, something nice, something that will last. And everyone knows it wouldn't be happening without him.What we talked aboutThe Turkey Trot chairlift upgrade; why Taylor re-engineered and renovated a mothballed double chair just to run it for a handful of days last winter before demolishing it this summer; Partek and why skiing needs an independent lift manufacturer; a gesture from Massanutten; how you build a chairlift when your chairlift doesn't come with a bottom terminal; Holiday Mountain's two new ski trails for this winter; the story behind Holiday Mountain's trail names; why a rock quarry is “the greatest neighbors we could ever ask for”; big potential future ski expansion opportunities; massive snowmaking upgrades; snowmaking is hard; how a state highway spurred the development of Holiday Mountain; “I think we've lost a generation of skiers”; vintage Holiday Mountain; the ski area's long, sad decline; pillage by flood; restoring abandoned terrain above the Fun Park; the chairlift you see from Route 17 is not actually a chairlift; considering a future when 17 converts into Interstate 86; what would have happened to Holiday had the other bidders purchased it; “how do we get kids off their phones and out recreating again?”; advice from Plattekill; buying a broken ski area in May and getting it open by Christmas (or trying); what translates well from the business world into running a ski area; how to finance the rebuild and modernization of a failing ski area; “when you talk to a bank and use the word ‘ski area,' they want nothing to do with it”; how to make a ski area make money; why summer business is hard; Holiday's incredible social media presence; “I always thought good grooming was easy, like mowing a lawn”; how to get big things done quickly but well; ski racing returns; “I don't want to do things half-assed and pay for it in the long run”; why season two should be better than season one; “you can't make me happier than to see busloads of kids, improving their skills, and enjoying something they're going to do for the rest of their life”; why New York State has a challenging business environment, and how to get things done anyway; the surprise labor audit that shocked New York skiing last February – “we didn't realize the mistakes we were making”; kids these days; the State of New York owns and subsidizes three ski areas – how does that complicate things?; why the state subsidizing independent ski areas isn't the answer; the problem with bussing kids to ski areas; and why Holiday Mountain doesn't feel ready to join the Indy Pass.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewI met Taylor in a Savannah bar last year, five minutes after he'd bought a ski area and seven months before he needed to turn that ski area into a functional business. Here was the new owner of Holiday Mountain, rolling with the Plattekill gang, more or less openly saying, “I have no idea what the hell I'm doing, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to save Holiday Mountain.”The National Ski Areas Association's annual show, tucked across the river that week, seemed like a good place to start. Here were hundreds of people who could tell Taylor exactly how hard it was to run a ski area, and why. And here was this guy, accomplished in so many businesses, ready to learn. And all I could think, having skied the disaster that was Holiday Mountain in recent years, was thank God this dude is here. Here's my card. Let's talk.I connected with Taylor the next month and wrote a story about his grand plans for Holiday. Then I stepped back and let that first winter happen. It was, by Taylor's own account, humbling. But it did not seem to be humiliating, which is key. Pride is the quickest path to failure in skiing. Instead of kicking things, Taylor seemed to regard the whole endeavor as a grand and amusing puzzle. “Well let's see here, turns out snowmaking is hard, grooming is hard, managing teenagers is hard… isn't that interesting and how can I make this work even though I already had too much else to do at my other 10 jobs?”Life may be attitude above all else. And when I look at ski area operators who have recycled garbage into gold, this is the attribute that seems to steer all others. That's people like Rick Schmitz, who talked two Wisconsin ski areas off the ledge and brought another back from its grave; Justin Hoppe, who just traded his life in to save a lost UP ski area; James Coleman, whose bandolier of saved ski areas could fill an egg carton; and Danielle and Laszlo Vajtay, who for 31 years have modernized their ridiculously steep and remote Catskills ski area one snowgun at a time.There are always plenty of people who will tell you why a thing is impossible. These people are boring. They lack creativity or vision, an ability to see the world as something other than what it is. Taylor is the opposite. All he does is envision how things can be better, and then work to make them that way. That was clear to me immediately. It just took him a minute to prove he could do it. And he did.What I got wrong* Mike said he needed a chairlift with “about 1,000 feet of vertical rise” to replace the severed double chair visible from Route 17. He meant length. According to Lift Blog, the legacy lift rose 232 vertical feet over 1,248 linear feet.* We talk a bit about New York's declining population, but the real-world picture is fuzzier. While the state's population did fall considerably, from 20.1 million to 19.6 million over the past four years, those numbers include a big pandemic-driven population spike in 2020, when the state's population rose 3.3 percent, from 19.5 million to that 20.1 million number (likely from city refugees camping out in New York's vast and bucolic rural reaches). The state's current population of 19,571,216 million is still larger than it was at any point before 2012, and not far off its pre-pandemic peak of 19,657,321.* I noted that Gore's new Hudson high-speed quad cost “about $10 million.” That is probably a fair estimate based upon the initial budget between $8 and $9 million, but an ORDA representative did not immediately respond to a request for the final number.Why you should ski Holiday MountainI've been reconsidering my television pitch for Who Wants to Own a Ski Area? Not because the answer is probably “everybody reading this newsletter except for the ones that already own a ski area, because they are smart enough to know better.” But because I think the follow-up series, Ski Resort Rebuild, would be even more entertaining. It would contain all the elements of successful unscripted television: a novel environment, large and expensive machinery, demolition, shouting, meddlesome authorities, and an endless sequence of puzzles confronting a charismatic leader and his band of chain-smoking hourlies.The rainbow arcing over all of this would of course be reinvention. Take something teetering on apocalyptic set-piece and transform it into an ordered enterprise that makes the kids go “wheeeeee!” Raw optimism and self-aware naivete would slide into exasperation and despair, the launchpad for stubborn triumphalism tempered by humility. Cut to teaser for season two.Though I envision a six- or eight-episode season, the template here is the concise and satisfying Hoarders, which condenses a days-long home dejunking into a half-hour of television. One minute, Uncle Frank's four-story house is filled with his pizza box collection and every edition of the Tampa Bay Bugle dating back to 1904. But as 15 dumpster trucks from TakeMyCrap.com drive off in convoy, the home that could only be navigated with sonar and wayfinding canines has been transformed into a Flintstones set piece, a couch and a wooly mammoth rug accenting otherwise empty rooms. I can watch these chaos-into-order transformations all day long.Roll into Holiday Mountain this winter, and you'll essentially be stepping into episode four of this eight-part series. The ski area's most atrocious failures have been bulldozed, blown-up, regraded, covered in snow. The two-seater chairlift that Columbus shipped in pieces on the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria has finally been scrapped and replaced with a machine that does not predate modern democracy. The snowguns are no longer powered by hand-cranks. A ski area that, just 18 months ago, was shrinking like an island in rising water is actually debuting two brand-new trails this winter.But the job's not finished. On your left as you drive in is a wide abandoned ridge where four ski lifts once spun. On the open hills, new snowguns glimmer and new-used chairlifts and cats hum, but by Taylor's own admission, his teams are still figuring out how to use all these fancy gadgets. Change is the tide climbing up the beach, but we haven't fully smoothed out the tracked sand yet, and it will take a few more hours to get there.It's fun to be part of something like this, even as an observer. I'll tell you to visit Holiday Mountain this winter for the same reason I'll tell you to go ride Chair 2 at Alpental or the triple at Bluewood or the Primo and Segundo Riblet doubles at Sunlight. By next autumn, each of these lifts, which have dressed their mountains for decades, will make way for modern machines. This is good, and healthy, and necessary for skiing's long-term viability. But experiencing the same place in different forms offers useful lessons in imagination, evolution, and the utility of persistence and willpower. It's already hard to picture that Holiday Mountain that teetered on the edge of collapse just two years ago. In two more years, it could be impossible, so thorough is the current renovation. So go. Bonus: they have skiing.Podcast NotesOn indies sticking togetherDespite the facile headlines, conglomerates are not taking over American skiing. As of my last count, about 73 percent of U.S. ski areas are still independently operated. And while these approximately three-quarters of active ski areas likely account for less than half of all skier visits, consumers do still have plenty of choice if they don't want to go Epkonic.New York, in particular, is a redoubt of family-owned and -operated mountains. Other than Vail-owned Hunter and state-owned Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface, every single one of the state's 51 ski areas is under independent management. Taylor calls out several of these New York owners in our conversation, including many past podcast guests. These are all tremendous conversations, all streaked with the same sincere determination and grit that's obvious in Taylor's pod.Massachusetts is also a land of independent ski areas, including the Swiss watch known as Wachusett:On PartekPartek is one of the delightful secrets of U.S. skiing. The company, founded in 1993 by Hagen Schulz, son of the defunct Borvig lifts President Gary Schulz, installs one or two or zero new chairlifts in a typical year. Last year, it was a fixed-grip quad at Trollhaugen, Wisconsin and a triple at Mt. Southington, Connecticut. The year before, it was the new Sandy quad at Saddleback. Everyone raves about the quality of the lifts and the experience of working with Partek's team. Saddleback GM Jim Quimby laid this out for us in detail when he joined me on the podcast last year:Trollhaugen owner and GM Jim Rochford, Jr. was similarly effusive:I'm underscoring this point because if you visit Partek's website, you'll be like “I hope they have this thing ready for Y2K.” But this is your stop if you need a new SKF 6206-2RS1, which is only $17!On the old Catskills resort hotels with ski areasNew York is home to more ski areas (51) than any state in America, but there are still far more lost ski areas here than active ones. The New York Lost Ski Areas Project estimates that the ghosts of up to 350 onetime ski hills haunt the state. This is not so tragic as it sounds, as the vast majority of these operations consisted of a goat pulling a toboggan up 50 vertical feet beside Fiesty Pete's dairy barn. These operated for the lifespan of a housefly and no one missed them when they disappeared. On the opposite end were a handful of well-developed, multi-lift ski areas that have died in modernity: Scotch Valley (1988), Shu Maker (1999), Cortina (mid-90s), and Big Tupper (2012). But in the middle sat dozens of now-defunct surface-tow bumps, some with snowmaking, some attached to the famous and famously extinct Borsch Belt Catskills resorts.It is this last group that Taylor and I discuss in the podcast. He estimates that “probably a dozen” ski areas once operated in Sullivan County. Some of these were standalone operations like Holiday, but many were stapled to large resort hotels like The Nevele and Grossingers. I couldn't find a list of the extinct Catskills resorts that once offered skiing, and none appeared to have bothered drawing a trailmap.While these add-on ski areas are a footnote in the overall story of U.S. skiing, an activity-laying-around-to-do-at-a-resort can have a powerful multiplier effect. Here are some things that I only do if I happen across a readymade setup: shoot pool, ice skate, jet ski, play basketball, fish, play minigolf, toss cornhole bags. I enjoy all of these things, but I won't plan ahead to do them on purpose. I imagine skiing acted in this fashion for much of the Bortsch Belt crowd, like “oh let's go try that snowskiing thing between breakfast and our 11:00 baccarat game.” And with some of these folks, skiing probably became something they did on purpose.The closest thing modernity delivers to this is indoor skiing, which, attached to a mall – as Big Snow is in New Jersey – presents itself as Something To Do. Which is why I believe we need a lot more such centers, and soon.On shrinking Holiday MountainSome ski areas die all at once. Holiday Mountain curdled over decades, to the husk Taylor purchased last year. Check the place out in 2000, with lifts zinging all over the place across multiple faces:A 2003 flood smashed the terrain near the entrance, and by 2007, Holiday ran just two lifts:At some indeterminant point, the ski area also abandoned the Turkey Trot double. This 2023 trailmap shows the area dedicated to snowtubing, though to my knowledge no such activity was ever conducted there at scale.On the lift you see from Route 17Anyone cruising NY State 17 can see this chairlift rising off the northwest corner of the ski area:This is essentially a billboard, as Taylor left the terminal in place after demolishing the lower part of the long-inactive lift.Taylor intends to run a lift back up this hill and re-open all the old terrain. But first he has to restore the slopes, which eroded significantly in their last life as a Motocross course. There is no timeline for this, but Taylor works fast, and I wouldn't be shocked to see the terrain come back online as soon as 2025.On NY 17's transformation into I-86New York 17 is in the midst of a decades-long evolution into Interstate 86, with long stretches of the route that spans southern New York already signed as such. But the interstate designation comes with standards that define lane number and width, bridge height, shoulder dimensions, and maximum grade, among many other particulars, including the placement and length of exit and entrance ramps. Exit 108, which provides direct eastbound access to and egress from Holiday Mountain, is fated to close whenever the highway gods close the gap that currently splits I-86 into segments.On Norway MountainHoliday is the second ski area comeback story featured on the pod in recent months, following the tale of dormant-since-2017 Norway Mountain, Michigan:On Holiday's high-energy social media accountsTaylor has breathlessly documented Holiday's comeback on the ski area's Instagram and Facebook accounts. They're incredible. Follow recommended. On Tuxedo RidgeThis place frustrates me. Once a proud beginners-oriented ski center with four chairlifts and a 450-foot vertical drop, the bump dropped dead around 2014 without warning or explanation, despite a prime location less than an hour from New York City.I hiked the place in 2020, and wrote about it:On Ski Areas of New YorkSki Areas of New York, or SANY, is one of America's most effective state ski area organizations. I've hosted the organization's president, Scott Brandi, on the podcast a couple of times:Compulsory mention of ORDAThe Olympic Regional Development Authority, which manages New York State-owned Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface mountains, lost $47.3 million in its last fiscal year. One ORDA board member, in response to the report, said that it's “amazing how well we are doing,” according to the Adirondack Explorer. Which makes a lot of the state's independent ski area operators say things like, “Huh?” That's probably a fair response, since $47.3 million would likely be sufficient for the state to simply purchase every ski area in New York other than Hunter, Windham, Holiday Valley, and Bristol.On high-speed ropetowsI'll keep writing about these forever because they are truly amazing and there should be 10 of them at every ski area in America:Welch Village, Minnesota. Video by Stuart Winchester.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 82/100 in 2024, and number 582 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Sept. 15. It dropped for free subscribers on Sept. 22. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoKelly Pawlak, President & CEO of the National Ski Areas Association (NSAA)Recorded onAugust 19, 2024About the NSAAFrom the association's website:The National Ski Areas Association is the trade association for ski area owners and operators. It represents over 300 alpine resorts that account for more than 90% of the skier/snowboarder visits nationwide. Additionally, it has several hundred supplier members that provide equipment, goods and services to the mountain resort industry.NSAA analyzes and distributes ski industry statistics; produces annual conferences and tradeshows; produces a bimonthly industry publication and is active in state and federal government affairs. The association also provides educational programs and employee training materials on industry issues including OSHA, ADA and NEPA regulations and compliance; environmental laws and regulations; state regulatory requirements; aerial tramway safety; and resort operations and guest service.NSAA was established in 1962 and was originally headquartered in New York, NY. In 1989 NSAA merged with SIA (Snowsports Industries America) and moved to McLean, Va. The merger was dissolved in 1992 and NSAA was relocated to Lakewood, Colo., because of its central geographic location. NSAA is located in the same office building as the Professional Ski Instructors of America and the National Ski Patrol in Lakewood, Colo., a suburb west of Denver.Why I interviewed herA pervasive sub-narrative in American skiing's ongoing consolidation is that it's tough to be alone. A bad winter at a place like Magic Mountain, Vermont or Caberfae Peaks, Michigan or Bluewood, Washington means less money, because a big winter at Partner Mountain X across the country isn't available to keep the bank accounts stable. Same thing if your hill gets chewed up by a tornado or a wildfire or a flood. Operators have to just hope insurance covers it.This story is not entirely incorrect. It's just incomplete. It is harder to be independent, whether you're Jackson Hole or Bolton Valley or Mount Ski Gull, Minnesota. But few, if any, ski areas are entirely and truly alone, fighting on the mountaintop for survival. Financially, yes (though many independent ski areas are owned by families or individuals who operate one or more additional businesses, which can and sometimes do subsidize ski areas in lean or rebuilding years). But in the realm of ideas, ski areas have a lot of help.That's because, layered over the vast network of 500-ish U.S. mountains is a web of state and national associations that help sort through regulations, provide ideas, and connect ski areas to one another. Not every state with ski areas has one. Nevada's handful of ski areas, for example, are part of Ski California. New Jersey's can join Ski Areas of New York, which often joins forces with Ski Pennsylvania. Ski Idaho counts Grand Targhee, Wyoming, as a member. Some of these associations (Ski Utah), enjoy generous budgets and large staffs. Others (Ski New Hampshire), accomplish a remarkable amount with just a handful of people. But layered over them all – in reach but not necessarily hierarchy – is the National Ski Areas Association. The NSAA helps ski areas where state associations may lack the scale, resources, or expertise. The NSAA organized the united, nationwide approach to Covid-era operations ahead of the 2020-21 ski season; developed and maintained the omnipresent Skier Responsibility Code; and help ski areas do everything from safely operate chairlifts and terrain parks to fend off climate change. Their regional and national shows are energetic, busy, and productive. Top representatives – the sorts of leaders who appear on this podcast - from every major national or regional ski area are typically present.This support layer, mostly invisible to consumers, is in some ways the concrete holding the nation's ski areas together. Most of even the most staunchly independent operators are members. If U.S. skiing were really made up of 500 ski areas trying to figure out snowmaking in 500 different ways, then we wouldn't have 500 ski areas. They need each other more than you might think. And the NSAA helps pull them all together.What we talked aboutLow natural snow, strong skier visits – the paradox of the 2023-24 ski season; ever-better snowmaking; explaining the ski industry's huge capital investments over recent years; European versus American lift fleets; lift investments across America; when it's time to move on from your dream job; 2017 sounds like yesterday but it may as well have been 1,000 years ago; the disappearing climate-change denier; can ski areas adapt to climate change?; the biggest challenges facing the NSAA's next leader, and what qualities that leader will need to deal with them; should ski areas be required to report injuries?; operators who are making progress on safety; are ski area liability waivers in danger?; the wild cost of liability insurance; how drones could help ski area safety; why is skiing still so white, even after all the DE&I?; why youth skier participation as a percentage of overall skier visits has been declining; and the enormous potential for indoor skiing to grow U.S. participation.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewFirst, Pawlak announced, in May, that she would step down from her NSAA role whenever the board could identify a capable replacement. She explains why on the podcast, but hers has been a by-all-accounts successful seven-year run amidst and through rapid and irreversible industry change – Covid, consolidation, multi-mountain passes, climate change, skyrocketing costs, the digitization of everything – and it was worth pausing to reflect on all that the NSAA had accomplished and all of the challenges waiting ahead.Second, our doomsday instincts keep running up against this stat: despite a fairly poor winter, snow-wise, the U.S. ski industry racked up the fifth-most skier visits of all time during its 2023-24 campaign. How is that possible, and what does it mean? I've explored this a little myself, but Pawlak has access to data that I don't, and she adds an extra dimension to our analysis.And this is true of so many of the topics that I regularly cover in this newsletter: capital investment, regulation, affordability, safety, diversity. This overlap is not surprising, given my stated focus on lift-served skiing in North America. Most of my podcasts bore deeply into the operations of a single mountain, then zoom out to center those ski areas within the broader ski universe. When I talk with the NSAA, I can do the opposite – analyze the larger forces driving the evolution of lift-served skiing, and see how the collective is approaching them. It's a point of view that very few possess, and even fewer are able to articulate. Questions I wish I'd askedWe recorded this conversation before POWDR announced that it had sold Killington and Pico, and would look to sell Bachelor, Eldora, and Silver Star in the coming months. I would have loved to have gotten Pawlak's take on what was a surprise twist in skiing's long-running consolidation.I didn't ask Pawlak about the Justice Department's investigation into Alterra's proposed acquisition of Arapahoe Basin. I wish I would have.What I got wrongI said that Hugh Reynolds was “Big Snow's head of marketing.” His actual role is Chief Marketing Officer for all of Snow Partners, which operates the indoor Big Snow ski area, the outdoor Mountain Creek ski area, and a bunch of other stuff.Podcast NotesOn specific figures from the Kotke Report:Pretty much all of the industry statistics that I cite in this interview come from the Kotke Demographic Report, an annual end-of-season survey that aggregates anonymized data from hundreds of U.S. ski areas. Any numbers that I reference in this conversation either refer to the 2022-23 study, or include historical data up to that year. I did not have access to the 2023-24 report until after our conversation.Capital expendituresPer the 2023-24 Kotke Report:Definitions of ski resort sizesAlso from Kotke:On European lift fleets versus AmericanComparing European skiing to American skiing is a bit like comparing futbol to American football – two different things entirely. Europe is home to at least five times as many ski areas as North America and about six times as many skiers. There are ski areas there that make Whistler look like Wilmot Mountain. The food is not only edible, but does not cost four times your annual salary. Lift tickets are a lot cheaper, in general. But it snows more, and more consistently, in North America; our liftlines are more organized; and you don't need a guide here to ski five feet off piste. Both are great and annoying in their own way. But our focus of difference-ness in this podcast was between the lift fleets on each continent. In brief, you're far more likely to stumble across a beefcaker on a random Austrian trail than you are here in U.S. America. Take a look at skiresort.info's (not entirely accurate but close enough), inventory of eight-place chairlifts around the world:On “Waterville with the MND lift”Pawlak was referring to Waterville Valley's Tecumseh Express, built in 2022 by France-based MND. It was the first and only lift that the manufacturer built in the United States prior to the dissolution of a joint venture with Bartholet. While MND may be sidelined, Pawlak's point remains valid: there is room in the North American market for manufacturers other than Leitner-Poma and Doppelmayr, especially as lift prices continue to escalate at amazing rates.On my crankiness with “the mainstream media” and climate changeI kind of hate the term “mainstream media,” particularly when it's used as a de facto four-letter word to describe some Power Hive of brainwashing elitists conspiring to cover up the government's injection of Anthrax into our Honey Combs. I regret using the term in our conversation, but sometimes in the on-the-mic flow of an interview I default to stupid. Anyway, once or twice per year I get particularly bent about some non-ski publication framing lift-served skiing as an already-doomed industry because the climate is changing. I'm not some denier kook who's stockpiling dogfood for the crocodile apocalypse, but I find this narrative stupid because it's reductive and false. The real story is this: as the climate changes, the ski industry is adapting in amazing and inventive ways; ski areas are, as I often say, Climate Change Super Adapters. You can read an example that I wrote here.On the NSAA's Covid responseThere's no reason to belabor the NSAA's Covid response – which was comprehensive and excellent, and is probably the reason the 2020-21 American ski season happened – here. I already broke the whole thing down with Pawlak back in April 2021. She also joined me – somewhat remarkably, given the then-small reach of the podcast – at the height of Covid confusion in April 2020 to talk through what in the world could possibly happen next.On The Colorado Sun's reporting on ski area safety and the NSAA's safety reportThe Colorado Sun consistently reports on ski area safety, and the ski industry's resistance to laws that would compel them to make injury reports public. I asked Pawlak about this, citing, specifically, this Sun article From April 8, 2024:[13-year-old] Silas [Luckett] is one of thousands of people injured on Colorado ski slopes every winter. With the state's ski hills posting record visitation in the past two seasons — reaching 14.8 million in 2022-23 — it would appear that the increasing frequency of injuries coincides with the rising number of visits. We say “appear” because, unlike just about every other industry in the country, the resort industry does not disclose injury data. …Ski resorts do not release injury reports. The ski resort industry keeps a tight grasp on even national injury data. Since 1980, the National Ski Areas Association provides select researchers with injury data for peer-reviewed reports issued every 10 years by the National Ski Areas Association. The most recent 10-year review of ski injuries was published in 2014, looking at 13,145 injury reports from the 2010-11 ski season at resorts that reported 4.6 million visits.The four 10-year reports showed a decline in skier injuries from 3.1 per 1,000 visitors in 1980-81 to 2.7 in 1990-91 to 2.6 in 2000-01 to 2.5 in 2010-11. Snowboarder injuries were 3.3 in 1990, 7.0 in 2000 and 6.1 in 2010.For 1990-91, the nation's ski areas reported 46.7 million skier visits, 2000-01 was 57.3 million and 2010-11 saw a then all–time high of 60.5 million visits. …The NSAA's once-a-decade review of injuries from 2020-21 was delayed during the pandemic and is expected to land later this year. But the association's reports are not available to the public [Pawlak disputes this, and provided a copy of the report to The Storm – you can view it here].When Colorado state Sen. Jessie Danielson crafted a bill in 2021 that would have required ski areas to publish annual injury statistics, the industry blasted the plan, arguing it would be an administrative burden and confuse the skiing public. It died in committee.“When we approached the ski areas to work on any of the details in the bill, they refused,” Danielson, a Wheat Ridge Democrat, told The Sun in 2021. “It makes me wonder what it is that they are hiding. It seems to me that an industry that claims to have safety as a top priority would be interested in sharing the information about injuries on their mountains.”The resort industry vehemently rebuffs the notion that ski areas do not take safety seriously.Patricia Campbell, the then-president of Vail Resorts' 37-resort mountain division and a 35-year veteran of the resort industry, told Colorado lawmakers considering the 2021 legislation that requiring ski resorts to publish safety reports was “not workable” and would create an “unnecessary burden, confusion and distraction.”Requiring resorts to publish public safety plans, she said, would “trigger a massive administrative effort” that could redirect resort work from other safety measures.“Publishing safety plans will not inform skiers about our work or create a safer ski area,” Campbell told the Colorado Senate's Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee in April 2021.On ASTM International Pawlak refers to “ASTM International” in the podcast. That is an acronym for “American Society for Testing and Materials,” an organization that sets standards for various industries. Here's an overview video that most of you will find fairly boring (I do, however, find it fascinating that these essentially invisible boards operate in the background to introduce some consistency into our highly confusing industrialized world):On Mammoth and Deer Valley's “everyone gets 15 feet” campaignThere's a cool video of this on Deer Valley's Instapost that won't embed on this page for some reason. Since Alterra owns both resorts, I will assume Mammoth's campaign is similar.On Heavenly's collision prevention programMore on this program, from NSAA's Safety Awards website:Heavenly orchestrated a complex collision prevention strategy to address a very specific situation and need arising from instances of skier density in certain areas. The ski area's unique approach leveraged detailed incident data and distinct geographic features, guest dynamics and weather patterns to identify and mitigate high-risk areas effectively. Among its efforts to redirect people in a congested area, Heavenly reintroduced the Lakeview Terrain Park, added a rest area and groomed a section through the trees to attract guests to an underutilized run. Most impressively, these innovative interventions resulted in a 52% year-over-year reduction of person-on-person collisions. Judges also appreciated that the team successfully incorporated creative thinking from a specialist-level employee. For its effective solutions to reduce collision risk through thoughtful terrain management, NSAA awarded Heavenly Mountain Resort with the win for Best Collision Prevention Program.On the Crested Butte accidentPawlak and I discuss a 2022 accident at Crested Butte that could end up having lasting consequences on the ski industry. Per The Colorado Sun:It was toward the end of the first day of a ski vacation with their church in March 2022 when Mike Miller and his daughter Annie skied up to the Paradise Express lift at Crested Butte Mountain Resort. The chair spun around and Annie couldn't settle into the seat. Mike grabbed her. The chair kept climbing out of the lift terminal. He screamed for the lift operator to stop the chair. So did people in the line. The chair kept moving. Annie tried to hold on to the chair. Mike tried to hold his 16-year-old daughter. The fall from 30 feet onto hard-packed snow shattered her C7 vertebrae, bruised her heart, lacerated her liver and injured her lungs. She will not walk again. The Miller family claims the lift operators were not standing at the lift controls and “consciously and recklessly disregarded the safety of Annie” when they failed to stop the Paradise chair. In a lawsuit the family filed in December 2022 in Broomfield County District Court, they accused Crested Butte Mountain Resort and its owner, Broomfield-based Vail Resorts, of gross negligence and “willful and wanton conduct.”In May, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled on the incident, per SAM:In a 5-2 ruling, the Colorado Supreme Court found that liability waivers cannot be used to protect ski areas from negligence claims related to chairlift accidents. The decision will allow a negligence per se claim brought against Vail Resorts to proceed in the district courts.The decision, however, did not invalidate all waivers, as the NSAA clarified in the same SAM article:There was concern among outdoor activity operators in Colorado that the case might void liability waivers altogether, but the narrow scope of the decision has largely upheld the use of liability waivers to protect against claims pertaining to inherent risks.“While the Supreme Court carved out a narrow path where releases of liability cannot be enforced in certain, unique chairlift incidents, the media downplayed, if not ignored, a critical part of the ruling,” explained Dave Byrd, the National Ski Areas Association's (NSAA) director of risk and regulatory affairs. “Plaintiffs' counsel had asked the [Colorado] Supreme Court to overturn decades of court precedent enforcing the broader use of ALL releases in recreation incidents, and the court unanimously declined to make such a radical change with Colorado's long-standing law on releases and waivers—and that was the more important part of the court's decision from my perspective.”The Colorado Supreme Court's ruling “express[es] no view as to the ultimate merit of the claim,” rather it allows the Millers' claim to proceed to trial in the lower courts. It could be month or years before the lawsuit is concluded.On me knowing “all too well what it's like to be injured on a ski trip”Boy do I ever:Yeah that's my leg. Ouch.Don't worry. I've skied 102 days since that mangling.Here's the full story.On “Jerry of the Day”I have conflicted feelings on Jerry of the Day. Some of their posts are hilarious, capturing what are probably genuinely good and seasoned skiers whiffing in incredible fashion:Some are just mean-spirited and stupid:Funny I guess if you rip and wear it ironically. But it's harder to be funny than you may suppose. See The New Yorker's cloying and earnest (and never-funny), Shouts & Murmurs column.On state passport programsState passport programs are one of the best hacks to make skiing affordable for families. Run by various state ski associations, they provide between one and three lift tickets to every major ski area in the state for some grade range between third and fifth. A small administrative fee typically applies, but otherwise, the lift tickets are free. In most, if not all, cases, kids do not need to live in the state to be eligible. Check out the programs in New Hampshire, Vermont, New York, and Utah. Other states have them too – use the Google machine to find them.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 58/100 in 2024, and number 558 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Sept. 13. It dropped for free subscribers on Sept. 20. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoChip Seamans, President of Windham Mountain Club, New YorkRecorded onAugust 12, 2024About Windham Mountain ClubClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Majority owned by Beall Investment Partners and Kemmons Wilson Hospitality Partners, majority led by Sandy BeallLocated in: Windham, New YorkYear founded: 1960Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Hunter (:17), Belleayre (:35), Plattekill (:48)Base elevation: 1,500 feetSummit elevation: 3,100 feetVertical drop: 1,600 feetSkiable Acres: 285Average annual snowfall: 100 inchesLift count: 11 (1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Windham's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himThe Catskills are the closest thing to big-mountain skiing in my immediate orbit. Meaning the ski areas deliver respectable vertical drops, reasonably consistent snowfall, and an address reachable for first chair with a 6 to 7 a.m. departure time. The four big ski areas off I-87 – Belleayre, Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham – are a bit farther from my launchpad than the Poconos, than Mountain Creek, than Catamount or Butternut or the smaller ski areas in Connecticut. But on the right day, the Catskills mountains ski like a proto-Vermont, a sampler that settles more like a main course than an appetizer.I'm tremendously fond of the Catskills, is my point here. And I'm not the only one. As the best skiing within three hours of New York City, this relatively small region slings outsized influence over North American ski culture. Money drives skiing, and there's a lot of it flowing north from the five boroughs (OK maybe two of the boroughs and the suburbs, but whatever). There's a reason that three Catskills ski areas (Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham), rock nearly as many high-speed chairlifts (nine) as the other 40-some ski areas in New York combined (12). These ski areas are cash magnets that prime the 20-million-ish metro region for adventures north to New England, west to the West, and east to Europe.I set this particular podcast up this way because it's too easy for Colorad-Bro or Lake Ta-Bro or Canyon Bro to look east and scoff. Of course I could focus this whole enterprise on the West, as every ski publication since the invention of snow has done. I know the skiing is better out there. Everyone does. But that doesn't mean it's the only skiing that matters. The Storm is plenty immersed in the West, but I can also acknowledge this reality: the West needs the East more than the East needs the West. After all, there's plenty of good skiing out here, with a lot more options, and without the traffic hassles (not to mention the far smaller Brobot:Not Brobot ratio). And while it's true that New England ski areas have lately benefitted from capital airdrops launched by their western overlords, a lot of that western money is just bouncing back east after being dropped off by tourists from Boston, New York, Philly, and D.C. Could Colorado have skiing without eastern tourism? Yes, but would Summit and Eagle counties be dripping with high-speed lifts and glimmering base villages without that cash funnel, or would you just have a bunch of really big Monarch Mountains?None of which tells you much about Windham Mountain Windham Mountain Club, which I've featured on the podcast before. But if you want to understand, rather than simply scoff at, the New Yorkers sharing a chair with you at Deer Valley or Snowmass or Jackson, that journey starts here, in the Catskills, a waystation on many skiers' pathway to higher altitudes.What we talked aboutChip is the new board chairman of the National Ski Areas Association; searching for a new NSAA head; the difference between state and national ski organizations; the biggest challenge of running a ski area in New York; could New York State do more to help independent ski areas?; how the ski area's rebrand to Windham Mountain Club “created some confusion in the market, no doubt”; the two-day weekend lift ticket minimum is dead; “our plan has always been to stay open to the public and to sell passes and tickets”; defining “premium”; what should a long liftline look like at WMC?; lift ticket and Ikon Pass redemption limits for 2024-25; the future of Windham on the Ikon Pass; rising lift ticket prices; free season passes for local students; who owns WMC, and what do they want to do with it?; defining the “club” in WMC; what club membership will cost you and whether just having the cash is enough to get you in; is Windham for NYC or for everyone?; how about a locals' pass?; a target number of skiers on a busy day at Windham; comparing Windham to Vermont's all-private Hermitage Club; how about the Holimont private-on-weekends-only model?; some people just want to be angry; the new owners have already plowed $70 million into the bump; snowmaking updates; a badass Cat fleet; a more or less complete lift fleet; the story behind K lift; the Windham village and changes to parking; and the dreaded gatehouse.   Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewRather than right now, maybe the best time for this interview would have been a year ago, or six months ago, or maybe all three. It's been a confusing time at Windham, for skiers, for employees, for the people running the place. No one seems to understand exactly what the bump is, what it plans to be, and what it wants to be.Which doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion, most of them wildly misinformed. Over the past year, I've been told, definitively, by a Saturday liftline's worth of casual skiers that Windham had “gone private.” The notion is pervasive, stubborn, immune to explanations or evidence to the contrary. So, very on brand for our cultural moment.Which doesn't mean I shouldn't try. I'm more than willing to bang on ski areas for their faults. In Windham's case, I've always thought that they groom too much, that the season is too short, that the season pass price (currently $2,000!), is beyond insane. But it's not really fair to invent a problem and then harangue the operators about it. Windham is not a private ski area, it is not shut off from locals, it does not require a $200,000 handshake to pass through the RFID gates. Inventing a non-existent problem and then taking offense to it is a starter kit for social media virtue signaling, but it's a poor way to conduct real life.But honestly, what the hell is going on up there? How can Windham Mountain Club justify a larger initiation fee than Vermont's truly private Hermitage Club for a ski experience that still involves half of Manhattan? Why is it so hard to make a weekend Ikon Pass reservation? Does anyone really go to the Catskills in search of the “rarified reality” that WMC insists it is somehow providing? What is the long-term vision here?All fair questions, all spun from WMC's self-inflicted PR tornado. But the answers are crystalizing, and we have them here.What I got wrong* I said that “Gore's triple chair,” which was only a “12, 13-year-old lift” was going to McCauley. I was referring to the Hudson triple, a 2010 Partek (so 14 years old), which will replace nearby but much smaller McCauley's 1973 Hall double, known as “Big Chair,” for the coming ski season.  * I said that the club fees for Windham were roughly the same as Hermitage Club. This is drastically untrue. WMC's $200,000 initiation fee is double Hermitage Club's $100,000 number. Windham's annual dues, however, are much lower than HC's $18,500.* I said that Windham was automating its first snowmaking trail this year. That is incorrect, as Seamans points out in our conversation. Windham is installing its first automated snowmaking on the east side of the mountain this year, meaning that 40 percent of the mountain's snowmaking system will now be automated.* I said that Windham had a water-supply-challenge, which is not accurate. I was confusing water supply (adequate), with snowmaking system pumping capacity (room for improvement). I think I am covering too many mountains and sometimes the narratives cross. Sorry about that.Why you should ski Windham Mountain ClubIf you really want an uncrowded Catskills ski experience, you have exactly one option: go to family-owned Plattekill, 40 minutes down the road. It has less vert (1,100 feet), and half Windham's acreage on paper, but when the glades fill in (which they often do), the place feels enormous, and you can more or less walk onto either of the mountain's two chairlifts any day of the season.But Plattekill doesn't have high-speed lifts, it's not on the Ikon Pass, and it's not basically one turn off the thruway. Windham has and is all of those things. And so that's where more skiers will go.Not as many, of course, as will go to Hunter, Windham's Vail-owned archnemesis 15 minutes away, with its unlimited Epic Pass access, Sahara-sized parking lots, and liftlines that disappear over the curvature of the Earth. And that has been Windham's unspoken selling point for decades: Hey, at least we're not Hunter. That's true not only in relative crowd size, but in attitude and aesthetic; Hunter carries at least a 10:1 ratio* over Windham in number of LongIsland Bros straightlining its double-blacks in baseball caps and Jets jerseys.In that context, Windham's rebrand is perfectly logical – as Hunter grows ever more populist, with a bargain season pass price and no mechanism to limit visitors outside of parking lot capacity (they ski area does limit lift ticket sales, but not Epic Pass visits), the appeal of a slightly less-chaotic, more or less equally scaled option grows. That's Windham. Or, hey, the much more exclusive sounding “Windham Mountain Club.”And Windham is a good ski area. It's one of the better ones in New York, actually, with two peaks and nice fall line skiing and an excellent lift system. It doesn't sprawl like Gore or tower like Whiteface, and those fall lines do level off a bit too abruptly from the summit, but it feels big, especially when that Catskills snowbelt fires. On a weekday, it really can feel like a private ski area. And you can probably score an Ikon Pass slot without issue. So go now, before WMC jumps off that mainstream pass, and the only way in the door is a triple-digit lift ticket.*Not an actual statistic^^Probably though it's accurate.Podcast NotesOn New York having more ski areas than any other state in the countryIt's true. New York has 51. The next closest state is Michigan, with 44 (only 40 of which operated last winter). Here's a list:On the three New York state-owned ski areas that “have been generously funded by the state”It's basically impossible to have any honest conversation about any New York ski area without acknowledging the Godzilla-stomping presence of the state's three owned ski areas: Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface. These are all terrific ski areas, in large part because they benefit from a firehose of taxpayer money that no privately owned, for-profit ski area could ever justify. As the Adirondack Explorer reported in July:The public authority in charge of the state's skiing, sliding and skating facilities saw expenses and losses jump in the past year, its annual financial report shows.The Lake Placid-based Olympic Regional Development Authority [ORDA], whose big-ticket sites are the Belleayre Mountain, Gore Mountain and Whiteface Mountain alpine centers, disclosed operating losses of $47.3 million for the last fiscal year. That compared with losses of $29.3 million for the same period a year earlier.It's important to acknowledge that this budget also covers a fun park's worth of skating rinks, ski jumps, luge chutes (or whatever), and a bunch of other expensive, unprofitable crap that you need if you ever want to host an Olympics (which New York State has done twice and hopes to do again). Still, the amount of cash funneled into ORDA in recent years is incredible. As the Adirondack Explorer reported last year:“The last six years, the total capital investment in the Olympic Authority was $552 million,” [now-fomer ORDA President and CEO Mike] Pratt told me proudly. “These are unprecedented investments in our facilities, no question about it. But the return on investment is immediate.”Half a billion dollars is a hell of a lot of money. The vast majority of it, more than $400 million, went to projects in the Lake Placid region, home to some 20,000 year-round residents—and it turns out, that breathtaking sum is only part of the story.Adirondack Life found New York State has actually pumped far more taxpayer dollars into ORDA since Pratt took the helm than previously reported, including a separate infusion of subsidies needed to cover the Olympic Authority's annual operating losses. Total public spending during Pratt's six-year tenure now tops $620 million.… Taken together that's more money than New York spent hosting the 1980 Winter Olympics. It's also more money than the state committed, amid growing controversy, to help build a new NFL stadium in Buffalo, a city with a population more than 10 times that of the Lake Placid region.There's also no sign ORDA's hunger for taxpayer cash will shrink anytime soon. In fact, it appears to be growing. The Olympic Authority is already slated to receive operating subsidies and capital investments next year that total another $119 million.To put that amount in context, the entire Jay Peak Resort in Vermont sold last year for $76 million. Which means New York State's spending on the Olympic Authority in 2024 would be enough to buy an entire new ski mountain, with tens of millions of dollars left over.It now appears certain the total price tag for Pratt's vision of a new, revitalized ORDA will top $1 billion. He said that's exactly what the organization needed to finally fulfill its mission as keeper of New York's Olympic flame.More context: Vail resorts, which owns and operates 42 ski areas – more than a dozen of which are several times larger than Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface combined – is allocating between $189 and $194 million for 2024 capital improvements. You can see why New York is one of the few states where Vail isn't the Big Bad Guy. The state's tax-paying, largely family-owned ski areas funnels 95 percent of their resentment toward ORDA, and it's easy enough to understand why.On New York's “increasingly antiquated chairlift fleet”Despite the glimmer-glammer of the lift fleets at ORDA resorts, around the Catskills, and at Holiday Valley, New York is mostly a state of family-owned ski areas whose mountains are likely worth less than the cost of even a new fixed-grip chairlift. Greek Peak's longest chairlift is a Carlevaro-Savio double chair installed in 1963. Snow Ridge runs lifts dating to 1964, '60, and '58(!). Woods Valley installed its three lifts in 1964, '73, and '75 (owner Tim Woods told me last year that the ski area has purchased at least two used chairlifts, and hopes to install them at some future point). Intermittently open (and currently non-operational) Cockaigne's two double chairs and T-bar date to 1965. These lifts are, of course, maintained and annually inspected, and I have no fear of riding any of them, but in the war for customers, lifts that predate human space travel do make your story a bit trickier to tell.On Holiday Valley selling a chairlift to CatamountI noted that a lift had moved from Holiday Valley to Catamount – that is the Catamount quad, Holiday Valley's old Yodeler quad. Catamount installed the new lift in 2022, the year after Holiday Valley pulled out the 20-year-old, 500-vertical-foot fixed-grip lift to replace it with a new high-speed quad.On Windham's pass price in comparison to othersWindham's season pass price is the eighth most expensive in America, and the most expensive in the East by an enormous amount (Windham also offers a Monday through Friday, non-holiday season pass for $750, and a Sunday through Friday, non-holiday pass for $1,300). Here's how WMC compares nationally:And here's how it stacks up in the East:On WMC's ownershipWe talk a bit about Windham's ownership in the pod. I dug into that a bit more last year, when they bought the place in April and again when the mountain rebranded in October.On Blackberry Farms Lodged between Windham and New York City is a hilltop resort called Mohonk Mountain House. In its aesthetic and upscale cuisine, it resembles Blackberry Farm, the Tennessee resort owned by Windham majority owner Sandy Beall, which The New York Times describes as “built on a foundation of simple Tennessee country life as reinterpreted for guests willing to pay a premium to taste its pleasures without any of its hardships.” In other words, an incredibly expensive step into a version of nature that resembles but sidesteps its wild form. I think this is what WMC is going for, but on snow.On the location of Windham's tubing hillI frankly never even realized that Windham had a tubing hill until Seamans mentioned it. Even though it's marked on the trailmap, the complex sits across the access road, well removed from the actual ski area. Tubing is not really something I give a damn about (sorry #TubeNation), other than to acknowledge that it's probably the reason many small ski areas can continue to exist, but I usually at least notice it if it's there. Circled in red below:On Hermitage ClubWe talk a bit about how Hermitage Club is similar in size to Windham. The southern Vermont ski area sports a slightly smaller vertical drop (1,400 feet to Windham's 1,600), and skiable acreage (200 to Windham's 285). Here's the trailmap:On Holimont, Buffalo Ski Club, and Hunt HollowNew York is home to three private, chairlift-served ski areas that all follow a similar business model: the general public is welcome on weekdays, but weekends and holidays are reserved for members. Holimont, right next door to Holiday Valley, is the largest and most well-known:Hunt Hollow is smaller and less-renowned, but it's a nice little bump (my favorite fact about HH is that the double chair – the farthest looker's left – is Snowbird's old Little Cloud lift):Buffalo Ski Center is the agglomeration of three side-by-side, formerly separate ski areas: Sitzmarker Ski Club, Ski Tamarack and Buffalo Ski Club. The trail network is dense and super interesting:On Windham in The New York TimesI referred to a feature story that The Times ran on Windham last December. Read that here.On Vail's pay bumpWhen Vail Resorts raised its minimum wage to $20 an hour in 2022, that presented a direct challenge to every competing resort, including Windham, just down the road from Vail-owned Hunter.On Windham's village expansionWindham will build a new condominium village over some portion of its current parking lots. Here's a concept drawing:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 57/100 in 2024, and number 557 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The title says it ALL! We are back ladies and gents, dogs and cats, dolphins and other sea creatures!!! In this episode the boys break down their mountain creek water park recap on their little weekend get away, leading right into another birthday weekend celebration! Justin talks about getting stung by a bee, while Nick talks about his near death experience on his water slide of doom!Hoboken madness embarks as our dear friend Candy Cane makes her Hoboken Summa debut as the group gathers for a special friend's birthday.Don't worry - We break down the movie news too! News on the new Batman animated series that premiered on Amazon is discussed, along with Megan 2.0, Thor's new fifth movie title revealed, box office news and trailer reviews!Follow us on social media to get more exclusive updates and every Wednesday look out for all new episodes from The Dynamic Brew! | @thedynamicbrewpodcast | @nickscardino | @justindelconsole

There's a new national-level downhill mountain bike race series in the U.S. — Clay Harper has ushered in the Monster Energy Pro Downhill and is in its inaugural year, landing in Big Bear this weekend. Clay, our guest on The Inside Line this week, is no stranger to downhill finding his love for the sport back in 1996 with the likes of Kyle Ebbett, Lars Tribus, Todd Bosch, Ken Avery, Aaron Chase and more. The farm-raised New Jersey native is also responsible for creating one of America's most legendary bike parks by building the first trails at Mountain Creek. He was behind the founding of the U.S. Open of Mountain Biking and continues to run the event today. Let's not forget he even puts on the X Games Real MTB contest. If it involves downhill in the USA, there aren't many things Clayton hasn't done and his push to grow the sport in our country through the Pro Downhill Series is a testament to his dedication to the community. Enjoy this interview with an instrumental figure in #USDH...it's just the tip of the iceberg.Learn more about Clay, the Pro Downhill Series and the U.S. Open@clayharper1@prodownhillseries@usopenmtb

Thanks to  Maxxis Tires, FOX and Jenson USA  for supporting The Inside Line MTB podcast! While visiting Mountain Creek Bike Park in New Jersey, for a Vital Enduro Fork Test Session project, I caught up with local legend, George Ryan. I met George in person about 20 years ago, but knew of him before that because of his online persona in old-timey forums and his presence in videos like the Chain Reaction series. Over the years we'd see each other at events or on photo shoots, so it was a massive pleasure to sit down with him and hear his full story. To my surprise, he's a big-time MTB keepsake collector and he showed up with old jerseys, DVDs, magazines and even a Shaun Palmer baseball card. We discuss his journey into mountain biking, turning pro and eventually becoming the main man in charge of trails at Mountain Creek. Enjoy the episode and hit up Vital MTB to soak up some of his old relics he has stashed away. I've put some of my photos from 2005 decline work down below too. Thanks so much, Muffin!(If you want to see epic late 90s early 2000s downhill race TV broadcasts that he recorded as a kid, hassle him on Instagram so he'll get them uploaded : )

Thanks to  Maxxis Tires, FOX and Jenson USA    for supporting The Inside Line MTB podcast! Jorge Gomes is a man dedicated to mountain bike racing. He is team manager for Transition Factory Racing, and the man behind Pro Builds mobile bike shop and Pro Builds Racing team, too. He tells us the story of how he became hooked on MTB which includes riding a dirt jump hardtail at Mountain Creek, how he became a bike assembler for Walmarts in his region and how he took his passion straight to the top by helping his rider, Valentia Roa Sanchez, earn the 2023 UCI Mountain Bike World Cup overall title in the Junior Women's class.As the first round of 2024 approaches, enjoy the stories of overcoming adversity and learn what it takes to become a World Cup mountain bike race team manager.0:00 - Intro and His first mountain bike9:23 - Getting into DH Racing and Teams17:09 - From Machine Operator to Bike Shop Employee19:18 - The Reality of Assembling Bikes for Walmart25:52 - Pro Builds Racing Grows28:42 - Introduction to Valentina Roa Sanchez33:26 - Meeting Valentina In-Person for the First Time49:07 - Investing in Junior Women's Racing55:54 - Transition Factory Racing's First Year1:08:37 - 2023 Race Season Highs and Lows1:16:02 - Loudenvielle Junior Race Cancellation1:30:05 - Valentina Roa Sanchez Winning the World Cup Overall1:43:00 - The Future of Non-Elite Teams at World Cups

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on April 16. It dropped for free subscribers on April 23. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoSteve Paccagnan, President and CEO of Panorama Mountain, British ColumbiaRecorded onMarch 27, 2024About PanoramaClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Panorama Mountain Village, Inc., a group of local investorsLocated in: Panorama, British Columbia, CanadaYear founded: 1962Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackouts* Mountain Collective: 2 days, no blackouts* Lake Louise Pass: view details hereClosest neighboring ski areas: Fairmont Hot Springs (:45), Kimberley (1:43), Kicking Horse (1:54) – travel times will vary considerably depending upon road conditions and time of yearBase elevation: 3,773 feet/1,150 metersSummit elevation: 8,038 feet/2,450 metersVertical drop: 4,265 feet/1,300 metersSkiable Acres: 2,975Average annual snowfall: 204 inches/520 centimetersTrail count: 135 (30% expert, 20% advanced, 35% intermediate, 15% beginner)Lift count: 10 (1 eight-passenger pulse gondola, 2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 1 platter, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Panorama's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himU.S. America is making a mistake. In skiing, as in so many other arenas, we prioritize status quo protectionism over measured, holistic development that would reorient our built environments around humans, rather than cars, shrinking our overall impact while easing our access to the mountains and permitting more people to enjoy them. Our cluttered and interminable western approach roads, our mountain-town housing shortages, our liftlines backed up to Kansas are all the result of deliberate generational decisions to prioritize cars over transit, open space over dense walkable communities, and blanket wilderness protection over metered development of new public ski areas in regions where the established businesses - and their surrounding infrastructure - are overwhelmed.I write about these things a lot. This pisses some of you off. I'm OK with that. I'm not here to recycle the broken ideas that have made U.S. skiing into the mess that (in some fundamental ways, in certain regions) it is. I'm here to figure out how it can be better. The skiing itself, mind you, tends to be fabulous. It is everything that surrounds the mountains that can spoil the experience: the cost, the hassle, the sprawl. There are better ways to do this, to get people to the mountains and to house them there, both to live and to vacation. We know this because other countries already do a lot of the things that we ought to be doing. And the most culturally similar and geographically cozy one is so close we can touch it.U.S. America and U.S. Americans are ceding North American skiing's future to British Columbia. This is where virtually all of the continent's major resort development has occurred over the past three decades. Why do you suppose so many skiers from Washington State spend so much time at Whistler? Yes, it's the largest resort in North America, with knockout terrain and lots of snow. But Crystal and Stevens Pass and Baker all get plenty of snow and are large enough to give most skiers just about anything they need. What Whistler has that none of them do is an expansive pedestrian base village with an almost infinite number of ski-in, ski-out beds and places to eat, drink, and shop. A dense community in the mountains. That's worth driving four or more hours north for, even if you have to deal with the pain-in-the-ass border slowdowns to get there.This is not an accident, and Whistler is not an outlier. Over the past 30-plus years, the province of British Columbia has deliberately shaped its regulatory environment and developmental policies to encourage and lubricate ski resort evolution and growth. While all-new ski resort developments often stall, one small ski area after another has grown from community bump to major resort over the past several decades. Tiny Mount Mackenzie became titanic Revelstoke, which towers over even mighty Whistler. Backwater Whitetooth blew upward and outward into sprawling, ferocious Kicking Horse. Little Tod Mountain evolved into Sun Peaks, now the second-largest ski area in Canada. While the resort has retained its name over the decades, the transformation of Panorama has been just as thorough and dramatic.Meanwhile, in America, we stagnate. Every proposed terrain expansion or transit alternative or housing development crashes headfirst into a shredder of bureaucratic holdups, lawsuits, and citizen campaigns. There are too many ways to stop things, and too many people whose narrow visions of what the world ought to be blockade the sort of wholesale rethinking of community architecture that would make the mountains more livable and accessible.This has worked for a while. It's still sort of working now. But each year, as the same two companies sell more and more passes to access a relatively stable number of U.S. ski areas, the traffic, liftlines, and cost of visiting these large resorts grows. Locals will find a way, pick their spots. But destination skiers with a menu of big-mountain options will eventually realize that I-70 is not a mandatory obstacle to maneuver on a good ski vacation. They can head north, instead, with the same ski pass they already have, and spend a week at Red or Fernie or Kimberley or Revelstoke or Sun Peaks or Kicking Horse.Or Panorama. Three thousand acres, 4,265 vertical feet, no lines, and no hassle getting there other than summoning the patience to endure long drives down Canadian two-laners. As the U.S. blunders along, Canada kept moving. The story of Panorama shows us how.What we talked aboutA snowmaking blitz; what happened when Panorama joined the Ikon Pass; how Covid savaged the international skier game; Panorama in the ‘80s; Intrawest arrives; a summit lift at last; village-building; reviving Mt. Baldy, B.C.; Mont Ste. Marie and learning French; why Intrawest sold the ski area; modernizing the lift system; busy busy Copper; leaving for Kicking Horse; Resorts of the Canadian Rockies arrives; who owns Panorama; whether the resort will stay independent; potential lift replacements and terrain expansions; could we ever see a lift in Taynton Bowl?; explaining those big sections of the trailmap that are blocked off with purple borders; and whitebark pine conservation.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewIt wouldn't be fair to call Panorama a Powder Highway sleeper. The place seems to be doing fine as a business, with plenty of skier traffic to support continuous expansive infrastructure upgrades. But with lower average annual snowfall totals than Revy and Whitewater and Fernie and Red, Panorama does tend to get fewer shout-outs through the media and social media megaphones. It's Northstar to Palisades Tahoe, Keystone to A-Basin, Park City to the Cottonwoods: the less-snowy, less-intense neighbor that collects families in wholesome Build-A-Bear fashion.But Panorama is wrapping up its second full season on the Ikon Pass, and its second winter since Canada finally unlocked its Covid-era borders. What impact, if any, would those two developments have on Panorama's famously uncrowded slopes? Even if Colorad-Bro would never deign to turn his Subaru north, would Kansas Karl or North Dakota Norman load the kids into the minivan for something farther but less annoying?Not yet, it turns out. Or at least, not in great enough numbers to wreck the place. But there is another angle to the Panorama story that intrigues me. Like Copper Mountain, Mountain Creek, and Whistler, Panorama once belonged to Intrawest. Unlike Winter Park, Steamboat, Stratton, and Snowshoe, they did not remain part of the enterprise long enough to live second lives as part of Alterra Mountain Company. But what if they had? Our big-mountain coalitions have somewhat ossified over these past half-dozen years, so that we think of ski areas as Ikon mountains or Epic mountains or Indy mountains or independent mountains. But these rosters, like the composition of sports teams or, increasingly, leagues, can fluctuate wildly over time. I do wonder how Whistler would look under Alterra and Ikon, or what impact Mountain Creek-as-unlimited-Ikon mountain would have had on the megapass market in New York City? We don't really know. But Panorama, as a onetime Intrawest mountain that rejoined the family through the backdoor with Ikon membership, does give us a sort-of in-between case, a kind of What If? episode of skiing.Which would be a fun thought experiment under any circumstances. But how cool to hear about the whole evolution from a guy who saw it all happen first-hand over the course of four decades? Who saw it from all levels and from all angles, who knew the players and who helped push the boulder uphill himself? That's increasingly rare with big mountains, in this era of executive rotations and promotions, to get access to a top leader in possession of institutional knowledge that he himself helped to draft. It was, I'm happy to say, as good as I'd hoped.What I got wrongI said that Panorama was “one of the closest B.C. ski areas to the United States.” This is not quite right. While the ski area is just 100 or so miles from the international border, more than a dozen ski areas sit closer to the U.S., including majors such as Kimberley, Fernie, Whitewater, and Red Mountain.Why you should ski PanoramaLet's acknowledge, first of all, that Panorama has a few things working against it: it's more than twice as far from Calgary airport – most skiers' likely port of entry – than Banff and its trio of excellent ski areas; it's the least powdery major ski resort on the Powder Highway; and while the skiable acreage and vertical drop are impressive, skiers must ride three lifts and a Snowcat to lap much of the best terrain.But even that extra drive still gets you to the bump in under four hours on good roads – hardly an endurance test. Sure, they get more snow in Utah, but have you ever been in Utah on a powder day? Enjoy that first untracked run, because unless you're a local who knows exactly where to go, it will probably be your only one. And lapping multiple lifts is more of a psychological exercise than a practical one when there are few to no liftlines.And dang the views when you get there:There are plenty of large, under-trafficked ski resorts remaining in the United States. But they tend to be hundreds of miles past the middle of nowhere, with 60-year-old chairlifts and little or no snowmaking, and nowhere to sleep other than the back of your van. In BC, you can find the best of America's Big Empties crossed with the modern lift fleets of the sprawling conglomerate-owned pinball machines. And oh by the way you get a hell of a discount off of already low-seeming (compared to the big-mountain U.S.) prices: an American dollar, as of April 16, was worth $1.38 Canadian.Podcast NotesOn IntrawestPanorama, as a former Intrawest-owned resort, could easily have been part of Alterra Mountain Company right now. Instead, it was one of several ski areas sold off in the years before the legacy company stuffed its remainders into the Anti-Vail:On Mont Ste. MarieMont Ste. Marie is one of approximately 45,000 ski areas in Quebec, and the only one, coincidentally, that I've actually skied. Paccagnan happened to be GM when I skied there, in 2002:On Kicking HorseIt's incredible how many U.S. Americans remain unaware of Kicking Horse, which offers what is probably the most ferocious inbounds ski terrain in North America, 4,314 vertical feet of straight down:Well, almost straight down. The bottom bit is fairly tame. That's because Kicking Horse, like many B.C. ski areas, began as a community bump and exploded skyward with an assist from the province. Here's what the ski area, then known as “Whitetooth,” looked like circa 1994:This sort of transformation happens all the time in British Columbia, and is the result of a deliberate, forward-looking development philosophy that has mostly evaporated in the U.S. American West.On the Powder HighwayPanorama lacks the notoriety of its Powder Highway size-peers, mostly because the terrain is overall a bit milder and the volume of natural snow a bit lower than many of the other ski areas. Here's a basic Powder Highway map:And a statistical breakdown:On the Lake Louise PassI already covered this one in my podcast with Red Mountain CEO Howard Katkov a couple months back:Katkov mentions the “Lake Louise Pass,” which Red participates in, along with Castle Mountain and Panorama. He's referring to the Lake Louise Plus Card, which costs $134 Canadian up front. Skiers then get their first, fourth, and seventh days free, and 20 percent off lift tickets for each additional visit. While these sorts of discount cards have been diminished by Epkon domination, versions of them still provide good value across the continent. The Colorado Gems Card, Smugglers' Notch's Bash Badge, and ORDA's frequent skier cards are all solid options for skiers looking to dodge the megapass circus.On Panorama's masterplan:On Mt. Baldy, B.C.Paccagnan helped revitalize a struggling Mt. Baldy, British Columbia, in the 1990s. Here was the ski area's 1991 footprint:And here's what it looks like today – the ski area joined Indy Pass for the 2023-24 ski season:On Panorama's evolutionPanorama, like many B.C. ski areas, has evolved significantly over the past several decades. Here's what the place looked like in 1990, not long after Paccagnan started and before Intrawest bought the place. A true summit lift was still theoretical, Taynton Bowl remained out of bounds, and the upper-mountain lifts were a mix of double chairs and T-bars:By 1995, just two years after Intrawest had purchased the ski area, the company had installed a summit T-bar and opened huge tracts of advanced terrain off the top of the mountain:The summit T ended up being a temporary solution. By 2005, Intrawest had thoroughly modernized the lift system, with a sequence of high-speed quads out of the base transporting skiers to the fixed-grip Summit Quad. Taynton Bowl became part of the marked and managed terrain:On Whitebark Pine certificationA bit of background on Panorama's certification as a “whitebark pine-friendly ski resort” – from East Kootenay News Online Weekly:The Whitebark Pine Ecosystem Foundation of Canada has certified Panorama Mountain Resort as a Whitebark Pine Friendly Ski Area, the first resort in Canada to receive this designation.The certification recognizes the resort's long and continued efforts to support the recovery of whitebark pine within its ski area boundary, a threatened tree species that plays a critical role in the biodiversity of mountain ecosystems. ,,,Found across the subalpine of interior B.C., Alberta and parts of the U.S, this slow growing, five needle pine is an integral part of an ecosystem that many other species depend on for survival. The tree's cones hold some of the most nutritious seeds in the mountains and sustain Grizzly bears and birds, including the Clark's nutcracker which has a unique symbiotic relationship with the tree. The deep and widespread roots of the whitebark pine contribute to the health of watersheds by stabilizing alpine slopes and regulating snowpack run-off.Over the past decade, whitebark pine numbers have fallen dramatically due in large part to a non-native fungal disease known as white pine blister rust that has been infecting and killing the trees at an alarming rate. Since 2012, the whitebark pine has been listed as endangered under the Government of Canada's Species at Risk Act (SARA), and was recently added to the U.S Fish and Wildlife Service's threatened species list.Panorama Mountain Resort has collaborated with the Whitebark Pine Ecosystem Foundation of Canada to facilitate restoration projects including cone collection and tree plantings within the resort's ski area.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 31/100 in 2024, and number 531 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Oct. 2. It dropped for free subscribers on Oct. 9. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoDan Grider, General Manager of Great Bear, South DakotaRecorded onSeptember 25, 2023About Great Bear Ski ValleyOwned by: The City of Sioux FallsLocated in: Sioux Falls, South DakotaYear founded: 1966Pass affiliations: NoneReciprocal partners:* 3 days at Seven Oaks* 2 days at Mont du Lac* 1 day each at Buck Hill, Powder Ridge MN, Snowstar* Discounts at several other local ski areasClosest neighboring ski areas: Mt. Crescent (2:37), Mount Kato (2:16)Base elevation: 1,352 feetSummit elevation: 1,534 feetVertical drop: 182 feetSkiable Acres: 20Average annual snowfall: 49 inchesTrail count: 15 (7 most difficult, 5 more difficult, 3 easiest)Lift count: 3 (1 fixed-grip quad, 1 ropetow, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog's inventory of Great Bear's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himFrequent Storm readers have probably started to notice the pattern: every fourth or fifth podcast swerves off Megapass Boulevard and takes four state highways, a gravel path, a Little Caesars pit-stop, and ends in the Wal-Mart-sized parking lot of a Midwest ski area. Which often sits next to a Wal-Mart. Or a car dealership. Or, in the case of Great Bear, between a construction supply depot and the Sioux Falls chapter of the Izaak Walton League, a conservation society.Why do I do this? My last three podcasts featured the leaders of Killington, Keystone, and Snowbird. The next one to drop into your inbox will be Northstar, a Vail Resorts staple that is the ninth-largest ski area in America. If you're reading this newsletter, there is a high probability that you either already have skied all four of those, or plan to at some future point. Most of you will probably never ski Great Bear or anywhere else in South Dakota. Many of you will never ski the Midwest at all.Which I understand. But there are several reasons I've worked Midwest ski areas into the podcast rotation, and why I will continue to do so for as long as The Storm exists:* The episodes with the leaders of Caberfae, Boyne Mountain, The Highlands, and Nub's Nob are for 18-year-old me. Or whatever version of 18-year-old me currently sits restlessly in the ski-mad but ignored flatlands between Ohio and the Dakotas. I devoured every ski magazine on the drugstore shelves of the 1990s, but if I could scrub 500 words of Midwest content from their combined catalogue each winter, I was lucky. I was dying – dying – for someone, anyone, to say something, anything, about the Midwest or Midwest skiing. Even a list of the top 10 ski areas in Michigan, with 50 words on each, would have made my year. But the ski mags, great as they were in those days, barely covered the rich and varied ski culture of New England, let alone the Midwest. I would have lost my goddamn mind had someone published a 90-minute conversation with the owner of the mysterious (to me at the time) Caberfae, with its hills upon hills of abandoned lifts and ever-changing footprint. * The Midwest is home to one of the world's great ski cultures. If you don't believe me, go ski there. The region hosts 122 ski areas across 10 states, most of them in Michigan (43), Wisconsin (33), and Minnesota (21). But the volume matters less than the attitude: Midwest skiers are absolutely unpretentious. They'll ski in hunting gear and Carhartts. They'll ski on 25-year-old sticks they found at a yard sale for five dollars. They'll ski when it's 25 below zero. They'll ski at night, in the rain, on a 200-vertical-foot bump running 60-year-old chairlifts. These are skiers, Man. They do it because it's fun, because it's right there, and because this is one of the few regions where skiing is still accessible to the masses. If you want to understand why every third Colorado liftie you meet is from Grand Rapids or Madison or Duluth, go ski Canonsburg or Cascade or Spirit Mountain. It will make sense in about five seconds.* Because the Midwest has so many owner-operators, and because it takes a certain sort of swaggering competence to run something as temperamental and wild as a 300-vertical-foot, city-adjacent ski area with 17 chairlifts all built before the Reagan Administration, these tend to be very good interviews. The top five most-downloaded Storm Skiing Podcasts of 2023 are Alterra CEO Jared Smith, Holiday Valley President Dennis Eshbaugh, Pacific Group Resorts CMO Christian Knapp, Indy Pass President Doug Fish, and Whitecap Mountains owner David Dziuban. Those first four are fairly predictable (Holiday Valley is a bit of an outlier, as the resort heavily shared the conversation), but the last one is remarkable. Both because only five people have actually skied at Whitecap, and because the 33 podcasts that I've pushed out this year include many prominent and popular megapass headliners with well-known and highly respected leaders. Why did the Whitecap podcast land so hard? I can't say for certain, but I suspect because it is completely raw, completely authentic, and absolutely unconcerned with what anyone will think or how they will react to it. Dziuban, an industry veteran on a mission to salvage a dying business from the scrapyard, has no boss, nothing to lose, and no one to impress. It's an incredible conversation (listen for yourself). And while Dziuban is a special character, bolstered by a fearless Chicago moxie and the accent to match, every single guest I have on from the Midwest brings some version of that no-b******t attitude. It's fun.* I'm from there. I grew up in Michigan. Many of my best friends still live there. I return frequently, hold Michigan football season tickets, camp in the UP every April, still rock the Old English “D” ballcap. I moved to the East Coast in 2002, but the longer I'm gone, the more I admire the region's matter-of-fact work ethic, the down-to-earth worldview, the way Midwesterners simplify the complicated (next time you ride a chairlift with a Michigander at Keystone or Breckenridge, ask them how they got to Colorado – there's a better than 50 percent chance that they drove). Midwest skiing is the reason I love skiing, and I will always be grateful for these hills, no matter how small they are. Plus, I gotta represent.So, there you go. Skip this ep if you want. But you shouldn't, because it's very good.What we talked aboutGreat Bear's record-shattering 2022-23 ski season for skier visits; how the ski area has been able to recruit and retain staff in a difficult labor market; staying open into April; the importance of Christmas Week; memorializing Roxie Johnson; Great Bear in the 1970s; the quirks of running a city-owned ski area; the appeal of working at a small ski area for decades; what it means to a flatland city to have a ski area; the best age to make skiers; “if you can sit, you can tube”; “The nice thing about our profitability is that there's no owner here, so our money just stays in the bank”; contemplating a new chalet; the location, size, and timeline for Great Bear's potential expansion; the glacial phenomenon that left Great Bear in its wake; reflecting on the Covid season; what it means for a small municipal Midwestern ski area to put in a brand-new chairlift; why the outgoing Borvig quad had to go, even though it was “a tank”; the brilliance and cost-effectiveness of high-speed ropetows; scarves and ropetows don't mix; the story behind the “Children's Dental Center Beginner Area”; the power of tubing; Keeping season pass and lift ticket prices low; the story behind the season passholders-only timeslot on Sunday; holding strong on wicket tickets; free buddy tickets for passholders; Flurry the mascot; and the Indy Pass.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewLike many small ski areas, Great Bear publishes a periodic newsletter to complement its social media presence. I subscribe to as many of these email digests as I am aware of, as they often contain nuggets that larger resorts would celebrate with a big campaign and press release. Great Bear's April newsletter hooked me with this:We are excited to finally start sharing with you our plans for future expansion! Efforts to expand have been in the works since 2013. Our top priority is adding another 7-acres of skiable downhill terrain with a second chairlift. Additionally, we are working on plans to significantly expand the lodge.As a city park, our next step is presenting a detailed plan to the Parks Board next month. We appreciate all your enthusiasm for a bigger and better Great Bear. Projects of this size take an enormous amount of work and collaboration. We are so grateful for our partnership with the City of Sioux Falls and all the community support!An expansion project at a municipal ski area marooned in a state with a population of fewer than 900,000 people is a big deal. It means the place is well-run and well-cared-for, and most likely a community staple worthy of some national attention. The fact that Great Bear was served not by a collection of ropetows and a 60-year-old Hall double, but by a carpet and a brand-new Skytrac quad, complemented with a high-speed Park Brah ropetow, were further evidence of a highly capable management team.Intrigued, I reached out. It took a minute, but we set up the podcast with Grider, who's been running the bump since 1992. He's a great storyteller with an upbeat disposition and a good mind for business, and he convincingly lays out a long-term future for Great Bear that will ensure the mountain's status as a skier assembly line for many generations to come. If you love skiing, you'll enjoy this one.Questions I wish I'd askedI'd meant to ask about this “I Ski 182 Vert Campaign,” which profiles locals who have put Great Bear at the center of their recreational lives:Why you should ski Great BearThere are different ways to think about yourself as a skier. One is as a sort of progressionist. Like a student working their way through school, you graduate from one grade to the next. Always forward, never back. So a Jersey kid may learn at Campgaw as a 6-year-old, join after-school ski bus trips to Mountain Creek in junior high, take weekend trips to Mount Snow in high school, and spend college spring breaks at Palisades Tahoe. But by the time he moves to the Upper East Side and has two kids of his own, he only skis on his annual trips to Deer Valley. He sits on his laptop in the lodge as the kids run beginner-chair laps at Thunder Ridge. He's not going to bother with this little stuff – he's graduated.But this is a strange way to think about skiing. We don't apply such logic to other facets of our lives. Consider food – sometimes you have the inch-thick porterhouse on a special-occasion outing, sometimes you have Taco Bell, and sometimes you eat Pop-Tarts on your drive to work. But I don't know anyone who, once they've dined at Peter Luger, never deigns to eat a hotdog again. Sometimes you just need to fuel up.I approach skiing in the same way. A dozen or so days per season, I'm eating steak: Snowbird or Big Sky or Vail or Heavenly. But since I'm not content to ski 12 days per winter, I also eat a lot of pasta. Let's call that New England and the Catskills on their best days, or just about anyplace with fresh snow. And I snack a lot, skiing's equivalent of a bag of Doritos: a half-open Poconos bump, a couple hours on a Sunday morning at Mountain Creek, a Michigan T-bar when I'm visiting family for Christmas. My 6-year-old son is in a seasonal program at 250-vertical-foot Mt. Peter in New York. The vast majority of the parents sit in the lodge on their phones while the kids ski. But I ski, lapping the Ol' Pete double chair, which accesses the whole mountain and rarely has a line. When his lesson is over, we often ski together. It's fun.Everyone funnels the joys of skiing through different lenses. The lift or the freefall, the high-altitude drama, the après electricity of crowded places and alcohol. For me, the draw is a combination of dynamic movement and novelty, an exploration of new places, or familiar places under the changing conditions wrought by weather and crowds. Even though Mt. Peter is familiar, it's a little different place every week.Which takes us to Great Bear, a 182-foot bump that is, most likely, nowhere near you. I'm not suggesting you cancel your Tahoe reservations and book yourself into the Sioux Falls Best Western. But there are two groups of skiers who ought to consider this place: locals, and cross-country road-trippers.If you live in Sioux Falls and are over the age of 16, you probably consider yourself a progressionist. Maybe you learned to ski at Great Bear, but now it's too small for you to bother with. You'll ski your five days per year at Copper Mountain and be content with it. But why? You have a ski area right there. The season pass is $265. Why ski five days per year when you can ski 25? With that Great Bear season pass, you can ski every Saturday morning and two nights a week after work. Consider it your gym. The runs are short, but the sensation of dynamic movement is still there. It's skiing. And while it's (typically) a materially a worse form of skiing than your high-altitude Colorado version of the sport, it's also in many ways better, with less attitude, less pretense, less entitlement, less ego. Just kids having fun. It's fulfilling in a different way.The second group is those of us who live east of America's best versions of skiing. Most East Coast skiers will fly west, but the most adventurous will drive. You see them on Facebook, posting elaborate three- or six-week Google maps dotted all over the west. But why wait until you arrive in Colorado or Wyoming or Montana to start skiing? There are ski areas all along your route. Great Bear sits two miles from Interstate 90, the 3,021-mile-long route that runs from Boston to Seattle. So why not scoot through Kissing Bridge, Buffalo Ski Center, and Peek'N Peak, New York; Alpine Valley, Boston Mills, and Brandywine in Ohio; Swiss Valley, Michigan; Four Lakes and Villa Olivia, Illinois; and Cascade, Devil's Head, and LaCrosse, Wisconsin en route? Yes, you want to hurry west. But the drive will take several days no matter what. Why not mix in a little novelty along the way?My first trip west was over Christmas break in the mid-90s, a 22-hour bender from Michigan to Summit County, Colorado with my buddy Andy. We'd booked a Super 8 or some similar thing in Lincoln, Nebraska, at our approximate halfway point. We rode into Nebraska sometime after dark, but early enough for a night session at Nebraski, a run-down hundred-footer between Omaha and Lincoln. The chairlift coughed up the bump like a cartoon contraption and skiers yard-saled all over the hill and it was just about the most amazing scene you could imagine. Four days later a two-footer hammered Copper, dropping an exclamation-point powder day onto our first Rocky Mountain adventure. Nearly three decades later, when we reminisce on that trip, we talk about that Copper pow day, but long-gone Nebraski (I don't think the place made it out of the ‘90s alive), is an equal part of the legend.A Great Bear stop would be a little different, of course. This is a modern ski area, with a 2021 Skytrac quad and modern snowmaking and solid financial backing. It will make you feel good about skiing and about its future. It may even be a highlight of your trip.Podcast NotesOn the remoteness of Great BearIt is impossible to overstate how important Great Bear is to curating skiers among the 300,000-ish residents of greater Sioux Falls. There are two other ski areas in South Dakota – Terry Peak and resurgent, probably semi-private Deer Mountain – but they sit nearly six hours west, in the Black Hills. Mt. Crescent, Iowa, sits two-and-a-half hours down I-29. Mt. Kato, Minnesota is two hours east. And that's about it. If you're a teenager in Sioux Falls without Great Bear, you may as well be a teenager in Fort Lauderdale. You're probably never going to ski.That wasn't always true. A 175-vertical-foot (at most) bump with the amazing name of Hole In The Mountain once operated with up to three ropetows near Lake Benton, an hour north, according to the Midwest Lost Ski Areas Project. But that's been gone for decades.  On Great Bear's potential expansionGreat Bear is in the process of a sizeable expansion, which could add a second chairlift and several more trails. Great Bear provided this preliminary map, which shows a new lift sitting adjacent to the learning area and a new entrance road and chalet:On the outcome of the Sept. 25 masterplan meetingGrider referenced a meeting he had coming up “later this week,” which means last week, since we recorded this on Sept. 25. I followed up on Sunday to see if the meeting had thrown any landmines in the way of Great Bear's potential expansion. It had not. The reception from local officials had been optimistic and enthusiastic, Grider said.“What we've got to do here in the next six weeks is they're going to formalize the plans and we'll get some drawings, we'll get a rendering,” Grider told me. “Then we go in front of the park board and we just keep our foot on the gas pedal.”On the stem in the middle of Great Bear's old Borvig chairGreat Bear's spanking-new Skytrac replaced a gorgeous but problematic Borvig centerpole quad. Luckily, Lift Blog documented the old lift before the ski area demolished it.On high-speed ropetows and Hyland HillsI remain obsessed with high-speed ropetows as the ultimate solution to terrain park-driven congestion. They're fast, they're cheap, and they tamp down liftlines by drawing Parkbrahs away from the workhorse chairlifts. Here's one I documented at Spirit Mountain, Minnesota last season:And here's one at Hyland Hills, which Grider mentions:On me not knowing who Mary Hart isAt one point in the podcast, Dan Grider asked me if I knew who Mary Hart was. I said I did not, which was true. It turns out that she is quite famous. She was Miss South Dakota 1970 and hosted a show called Entertainment Tonight for 29 years. I have never watched that show, nor was I aware of its existence until I looked up Ms. Hart on Wikipedia.This probably sounds dubious to you. But there is something wrong with my brain. I simply do not process information having to do with pop culture or celebrities. I say this not out of proud ignorance, but as a matter of observable fact. I have always been this way. Hit me with a well-known movie quote, and I will stare at you as though you just spoke to me in Elvish.An anecdote to illustrate the larger void in which I exist: my wife and I began watching a show called Suits the other day. She asked me if I recognized the young woman who plays a paralegal on this show. I said no. She asked if I knew who Meghan Markle was. I said no. She asked if I knew who Prince [can't remember the name] was. I said no. Because apparently they're married. And that matters somehow. Though I'm not exactly sure why. Though I am curious why we still have princes in this world, because I thought we got rid of them when we exiled the dragons back in like 1502 or whenever.We all have gaps, right? Or shortcomings. One of mine, and there are many, is aggressive indifference to things that I find boring. It's probably how some of you feel when I write about skiing in Ohio. Like, Man, get me to the next thing.On charging the same for kids as adultsMost ski areas kick you a discount for a kids' lift ticket. And why not? Expenses add up for a family, and when you start multiplying everything by three or four, you get to a scary price range pretty quickly. So some of you may have been surprised when Grider mentions, during our interview, that Great Bear doesn't offer discounted lift tickets for kids.There's a simple reason for that. A discounted kids ticket doesn't do much for you when most of your clientele is children. Great Bear is one of our skier factories, where busloads of kids prime themselves for roadtrips to Colorado 10 years from now. So the parents don't need the incentive – they're just signing the waiver to get the kid on the ski bus.Plenty of ski areas follow a similar model. Mount Peter, where my 6-year-old participates in a seasonal program, is currently selling adult season passes for $499, and kids' passes for $479. Nearby Campgaw posts similar rates: $389 for adults, $359 for kids. But it makes sense to minimize the discount: both are 300-ish-foot bumps that are dwarfed by nearby Mountain Creek, a thousand-footer with a killer terrain park and high-speed lifts (and, incidentally, a less-expensive season pass). They can't compete from a terrain point of view, but they can offer something that Creek can't: an unintimidating atmosphere to learn in. And the skiers who mostly need such a thing is kids. And if Mt. Peter and Campgaw discount kids too much, their whole model falls apart.In the case of Great Bear, well, the season pass is currently $265. This winter's lift ticket price will be $38. So, really, who cares?On Flurry the MascotIf your ski area doesn't have a mascot, it should:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 81/100 in 2023, and number 467 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on July 8. It dropped for free subscribers on June 11. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe for free below:WhoMark Adamczyk, General Manager of Dartmouth Skiway, New HampshireRecorded onJune 12, 2023About Dartmouth SkiwayClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Dartmouth CollegeLocated in: Lyme Center, New HampshireYear founded: 1956Pass affiliations:* No Boundaries Pass: between 1 and 3 days, depending upon when the pass is redeemed* Indy Pass Allied Resorts: Indy Pass holders get 50 percent off weekday lift tickets and 25 percent off weekends and holidaysReciprocal partners: NoneClosest neighboring ski areas: Storrs Hill (33 minutes), Whaleback (36 minutes), Northeast Slopes (36 minutes), Harrington Hill (41 minutes), Quechee (42 minutes), Ragged (48 minutes), Tenney (53 minutes), Saskadena Six (54 minutes), Ascutney (55 minutes), Arrowhead (59 minutes), Mount Sunapee (59 minutes), Veterans Memorial (1 hours, 6 minutes), Campton (1 hour, 6 minutes), Kanc (1 hour, 10 minutes), Loon (1 hour, 11 minutes), Waterville Valley (1 hour, 17 minutes), Cannon (1 hour, 17 minutes), Killington (1 hour, 20 minutes), Pico (1 hour, 21 minutes), Okemo (1 hour, 22 minutes)Base elevation: 968 feetSummit elevation: 1,943 feetVertical drop: 968 feetSkiable Acres: 104Average annual snowfall: 100 inchesTrail count: 28 (25% advanced/expert, 50% intermediate, 25% beginner)Lift count: 4 (1 fixed-grip quad, 1 double, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Dartmouth Skiway's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himIsn't it interesting what exists? Imagine if Yale or Dartmouth or hell the University of Vermont wanted to build a ski area today. They'd have better luck genetically splicing a goat with an Easter egg. Or building a Chuck E. Cheese on Jupiter. Or sealing the Mariana Trench with toothpaste. Imagine the rage from alumni, from the Leaf Defenders, from whatever town they decided to slice the forest up over. U.S. American colleges collectively acting as the NFL's minor league while piling up millions in broadcast and ticket revenue – totally fine. A college owning a ski area? What are you, insane?But here we are: Dartmouth College owns a ski area. The origin story, in my imagination: Eustacious VonTrappenSquire VIII, president of Dartmouth and also Scout Emeritus of his local outing club, orders his carriage driver to transport him up to Lyme, where he intends to stock up on parchment and whale oil. As he waits for the apothecary to mix his liver tonic, the old chum takes a draw from his pipe and, peering through his spectacle, spies Holt's Ledge and Winslow Ledge rising more than 2,100 feet off the valley floor. “Charles, good fellow, the next time you draw up the horses, be a swell and throw my old snowskis into the carriage. I fancy a good ski on those two attractive peaks yonder.” He then loads his musket and shoots a passenger pigeon mid-flight.“But Sir,” Charles replies, “I'm afraid there's no trails cut for snow-skiing on those peaks.”“Well by gum we'll see about that!” the esteemed president shouts, startling one of the horses so badly that it bolts into Ms. McHenry's salon and knocks over her spittoon. VonTrappenSquire, humiliated, repays her by making McHenry Dartmouth Skiway's first general manager.Unfortunately for my imagination, the actual story is provided in Skiway: A Dartmouth Winter Tale by Everett Wood (sourced from the Skiway's website):With its northern New England location and an active Outing Club, Dartmouth College was “the collegiate champion of the outdoor life and winter sports” in the early 1900s. A number of men skied for the United States in the 1936 Winter Olympics in Germany, an amazing feat given that their local ski hills were what is today the Hanover Country Club.In April 1955, a report, spearheaded by John Meck '33 entitled, “Development of Adequate Skiing Facilities for Dartmouth Students in the Hanover Area,” was submitted to the Dartmouth Trustee Planning Committee. The report outlined five basic principles, the first two stating, “Dartmouth has had a preeminence in skiing which has been beneficial and… it is very desirable that this preeminence be maintained… both in terms of competition at the ski team level and of recreational skiing for the student body generally.” The Trustees were sold with the idea.New England Ski History provides the rest:Following John Meck's report … Dartmouth developed trails on the northeastern slope of Holt's Ledge for the 1956-57 season. Climbing up the new 968 vertical foot complex was a 3,775 foot Poma lift, which reportedly served 5 trails. At the foot of the area, the Peter Brundage Lodge was constructed, designed by local architect W. Brooke Fleck. Dartmouth College formally dedicated its new Holt's Ledge ski area on January 12, 1957, while the lodge was inaugurated on March 3. Accomplished racer Howard Chivers, class of 1939, was the area's first manager.So there you go: Dartmouth College owns a ski area. But what has kept the college from filing the Skiway in the basement alongside the Latin curriculum and phrenology textbooks? Why does the 12th best university in America, according to U.S. News & World Reports' rankings, own the 42nd largest ski area in New England by vertical drop? How does Dartmouth Skiway enrich the culture and mission of Dartmouth College in 2023? And where does this peculiar two-sided ski area fit into a New England ski scene increasingly dominated by out-of-state operators with their megapasses and their 42-passenger steamship lifts and their AI-generated, 3D-printed moguls? I had to find out.What we talked aboutBreaking down the 2022-23 ski season; blowing snow on Holt's earlier in the season; staying competitive in a New England dripping with Epic and Ikon Passes; turning skiing into bowling; staying mentally strong through weeks-long stretches of crummy weather; the Indy Allied Resorts program and whether Dartmouth Skiway would join the Indy Pass; the No Boundaries ski pass; Victor Constant; Winter Park and the impact of the Ikon Pass; the angst of taking over a ski area in spring 2020; why Dartmouth College owns a ski area; it's a public ski area, Folks; Olympic legacy; Dartmouth College 101; students on Patrol; the financial relationship between the college and the ski area; Friends of the Skiway; Dartmouth's unusual two-face layout; whether the two sides could be connected via tunnel or other means; why both sides of the Skiway stop more than 1,000 vertical feet short of their mountain summits, and whether that could ever change; expansion opportunities; a student-led environmental assessment of the Skiway; “we have great potential to be one of the most sustainable ski areas in the country”; upgrading snowmaking; the Dupree family and HKD's support of the ski area; upgrading the Holt's Ledge double; where we could see a non-beginner surface lift; whether we could ever see a high-speed lift on either side of the mountain; building out the glade network; the potential for night-skiing; and season passes.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewAdamczyk is relatively new to Dartmouth Skiway, arriving that first Covid summer with a Winter Park employee pass still dangling from his ski jacket. It was a scary time to punch in for your first ski area general manager role, but also an opportune one: suddenly, none of the old ways worked anymore. Rethink everything. Try anything. It was a moment of maximum creativity and flexibility in a sometimes-staid industry.Not that Adamczyk has done anything radical. Or needed to – Dartmouth Skiway, unlike so many small New England ski areas living and dead, is well-financed and well-cared-for. But his timing was exquisite. Covid reshuffled the purpose and place of small-mountain skiing in the lift-served food chain. If Loon and Cannon and Sunapee and Waterville and Killington sold out or ran out of parking spots and you still needed someplace to ski that weekend, well, you may have ended up at Dartmouth Skiway.The Skiway has been able to ride that momentum to steady increases in annual skier visits. What led directly to this podcast conversation was the Skiway's first annual report, which Adamczyk assembled last November:Adamczyk also helped found a Friends of Dartmouth Skiway group, a popular mechanism for supporting nonprofit organizations. You can contribute here:Yes, the lifts are still slow, and they're likely to stay that way. Dartmouth Skiway isn't going to become Loon West, despite the thousand feet of unused vert hanging out on either side of the ski area. But the place holds a different sort of potential. Dartmouth Skiway can transform itself into a model of: a sustainable, energy-efficient ski area; a small mountain thriving in big-mountain country; and a nonprofit operating in a profit-driven industry. They're off to a good start.What I got wrongAdamczyk and I briefly discussed when the Skiway updated the drive on its Holt's Ledge Hall double. According to New England Ski History, the ski area upgraded the machine with a Doppelmayr-CTEC drive in 2005.I had a squint-at-the-screen moment when I mis-guessed the name of the Winslow-side glade trail several times, calling it “M.R.O.,” “H.R.O.,” and “N.R.O.” It is N.R.O., as you can see (I do not know what “N.R.O.” stands for):Why you should ski Dartmouth SkiwayIt you're looking for a peak-days getaway from the chaos of Killington or Cannon or Bretton Woods, this isn't a bad alternative. Dartmouth Skiway's 38,000 annual skier visits wouldn't fill the K-1 gondola queue on a February Saturday. Sure, the Skiway's lifts are slow and stop far below the summits, but the place is cheap and well-maintained, and it delivers a thousand(-ish) feet of vert, two distinct faces, and twisty-fun New England rollers.But there's something else. Over the past decade, I've shifted my ski season philosophy to emphasize exploration and novelty. I've always been a resort-hopper; my typical mid-90s ski season rotated through a dozen Michigan bumps punctuated by a run east or west. But by the time I'd moved east in the early 2000s, I held a firm prejudice for larger mountains, sculpting a wintertime rotation of Killington-Mount Snow-Stratton-Sugarbush-Gore-Whiteface (and the like), peppered with some Hunter Mountain or Windham. I'd convinced myself that the smaller ski areas weren't “worth” my time and resources.But then my daughter, now 15, started skiing. I hauled her to Gore, Sugarbush, Killington, Sunday River, Loon, Steamboat, Copper. Her preference, from the start, was for the smaller and less frantic: Thunder Ridge, Bousquet, Plattekill, Catamount, Royal, Willard, Mohawk, and her favorite, 200-vertical-foot Maple Ski Ridge outside Schenectady, New York. She's at ease in these places, free to ski without mob-dodging, without waiting in liftlines, without fighting for a cafeteria seat.And on these down-day adventures, I realized something: I was having a great time. The brutal energy of The Beast is thrilling and invigorating, but also exhausting. And so I began exploring: Elk Mountain, Montage, Greek Peak, Song, Labrador, Peek'N Peak, Oak Mountain, Mount Pleasant, Magic, Berkshire East, Butternut, Otis Ridge, Spring Mountain, Burke, Magic, King Pine, Granite Gorge, Tenney, Whaleback, Black Mountain of Maine. And so many more, 139 ski areas since downloading the Slopes app on my Pet Rectangle at the beginning of the 2018-19 ski season. This process of voyaging and discovery has been thrilling and gratifying, and acted as a huge inspiration for and catalyst of the newsletter you're reading today.I've become a completist. I want to ski every ski area in North America. Each delivers its own thrill, clutches its own secrets, releases its own vibe. This novelty is addictive. Like trying new restaurants or collecting passport stamps. Yes, I have my familiars – Mountain Creek, everything in the Catskills – where I can rip off groomers and max out the floaters and have calibrated the approach speed on each little kicker. But the majority of my winter is spent exploring the Dartmouth Skiways of the world.Budget megapasses, with their ever-expansive rosters, have made it easier than ever to set up and cross off a wintertime checklist of new destinations. So take that Indy Pass, and, yes, cash in your days at Jay and Waterville and Cannon and Saddleback. But linger in between, at Black New Hampshire and Black Maine and Saskadena Six and Pats Peak. And cash in those discount days for the Indy Allied resorts: McIntyre and Whaleback and Middlebury Snowbowl and King Pine. And Dartmouth Skiway.Podcast NotesOn the No Boundaries PassDartmouth Skiway was an inaugural member of the No Boundaries Pass, a coupon book that granted access to four New England ski areas for $99 last season:The pass was good for up to three days at each ski area. The concept was novel: No Boundaries mailed each passholder a coupon book that contained three coupons for each partner mountain. Skiers would then trade in one coupon for a non-holiday weekday lift ticket, two coupons for a Sunday lift ticket, and all three coupons for a Saturday or holiday lift ticket. So you could clock between four and 12 days, depending on when you skied. The pass delivers a payout to each ski area for each skier visit, just like Indy or Ikon or Mountain Collective.The Indy Pass, of course, has already scooped up most of New England's grandest independent mountains, and they don't allow their mountains to join competing, revenue-generating passes. Dartmouth Skiway and Whaleback are both Indy Allied members, and it's unclear how long Indy will tolerate this upstart pass. So far, they're ignoring it, which, given the limited market for a small-mountain pass in a region rippling with deep megapass rosters, is probably the correct move.On Victor Constant ski areaAdamczyk's first job in skiing was at Victor Constant, a 475-vertical-foot ski area run by the U.S. Army at West Point, New York. It is one of the closest ski areas to New York City and is priced like it's 1972, but almost no one has heard of the place. I wrote a brief recap after I stopped in two years ago:Victor Constant pops off the banks of the Hudson, 500 vertical feet of pure fall line served by an antique yellow triple chair. It's 45 miles north of the George Washington Bridge and no one knows it's there. It's part of West Point and managed by the Army but it's open to the public and lift tickets are $27. The terrain is serviceable but the few inches of fresh snow had been paved into blacktop by inept grooming, and so I lapped the wild lumpy natural-snow trails through the trees for two hours. This tiny kingdom was guarded by the most amazing ski patroller I'd ever seen, an absolute zipper bombing tight lines all over the mountain and I could almost see the cartoon bubble popping out of his brain saying Goddamn I can't believe I'm getting paid to crush it like this.Here's the trailmap:If you live anywhere near this joint, do yourself a favor and swing through next winter.On the Dartmouth Outing ClubWe briefly discuss the Dartmouth Outing Club, which bills itself as “the oldest and largest collegiate outing club in the country. Anyone — member or not — may stay at our cabins, go on our trips, rent our gear, and take our classes.” Founded in 1909, the club, among other things, maintains more than 50 miles of the Appalachian Trail. Learn more here.On the original Dartmouth ski area at Oak HillI couldn't find any trailmaps of Dartmouth's original ski hill, which Adamczyk and New England Ski History agree was a surface-lift bump at Oak Hill in Hanover. The area continues to operate as a Nordic center. My best guess is that the surface lift served the cleared area still visible on Google Maps:If you have any additional insight here, please let me know.On Dartmouth Skiway in letters and moving picturesDartmouth Skiway is the subject of at least two books and a PBS documentary:* Skiway: A Dartmouth Winter Tale, book by Everett Wood – order here* Passion for Skiing, book by Stephen L. Waterhouse – for some reason, this is priced at $489.89 on Amazon* Passion for Snow, PBS documentary based upon the Passion for Skiing book:On Dartmouth's two sidesDartmouth Skiway is, like many ski areas, segmented by a road. But unlike Belleayre, which has addressed the issue with a bridge, or Titus, which has bored a tunnel underneath the highway, the Skiway hasn't gotten around to creating a ski-across connection. You can skate across, of course, when the road has sufficient snow, but mostly you have to remove your skis and trek.Holt's Ledge opened first, with a 3,775-foot Poma in 1956 or ‘57, according to New England Ski History. Winslow followed in 1967, when the ski area opted to expand rather than install snowmaking. Grim winters followed – the Skiway operated just 34 days over the 1973-74 season and just four days in the 1979-80 campaign – before the mountain installed snowmaking in 1985.On the Appalachian trail crossing over Holt's LedgeDartmouth Skiway has compelling expansion potential. While the lifts rise just shy of 1,000 vertical feet on either side of the ski area, Holt's Ledge holds 2,220 feet of total vertical, and Winslow soars 2,282 feet. Maximizing this on either side would instantly thrust the Skiway into the Cannon/Loon/Wildcat league of big-time New Hampshire ski areas. Adamczyk and I discuss vertical expansion potential on either face. There is some, it turns out, on Winslow. But Holt's Ledge runs into the Appalachian Trail shortly above the top of the double chair. Meaning you have a better chance of converting the baselodge into a Burger King than you do of pushing the lift any higher than it goes today:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 58/100 in 2023, and number 444 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on June 15. It dropped for free subscribers on June 18. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe for free below:WhoKeith Kreischer, General Manager of Granite Gorge, New HampshireRecorded onMay 30, 2023About Granite GorgeOwned by: Granite Gorge Partnership LLC, a group of local investorsLocated in: Roxbury, New HampshireYear founded: 1959Pass affiliations: NoneReciprocal partners: NoneClosest neighboring ski areas: Crotched (32 minutes), Brattleboro (32 minutes), Bellows Falls (35 minutes), Pats Peak (37 minutes), Mount Sunapee (50 minutes), Arrowhead (50 minutes), Ascutney (58 minutes), McIntyre (1 hour), Hermitage Club (1 hour, 6 minutes), Mount Snow (1 hour, 9 minutes), Magic (1 hour, 3 minutes), Wachusett (1 hour, 7 minutes), Bromley (1 hour, 13 minutes), Berkshire East (1 hour, 13 minutes), Okemo (1 hour, 13 minutes), Veterans Memorial (1 hour, 14 minutes), Ragged Mountain (1 hour, 16 minutes), Stratton (1 hour, 18 minutes)Base elevation: 800 feetSummit elevation: 1,325 feetVertical drop: 525 feetSkiable Acres: 25Average annual snowfall: 100 inchesTrail count: 17 (2 expert, 3 advanced, 5 intermediate, 7 beginner)Lift count: 3 (1 double, 1 handletow, 1 carpet)Why I interviewed himIt doesn't happen often, these comebacks. Ski areas die and they stay dead. Or they die and return and die again and then they're really gone.We're at a weird inflection point. After decades of exploding numbers followed by decades of divebombing ranks, the number of U.S. ski areas has stabilized over the past 20 years. Most of the ski areas that are going to die already have. Most of the ones that remain will survive indefinitely. Yes, climate change. But this has been a long-simmering storm and operators have strung lines of snowguns like cannons along a castle wall. They are ready to fight and they will.They have plenty to fight for. In most of U.S. America, it is all but impossible to build a new ski area. Imagine if no one could build a new restaurant or grocery store. The owners of existing restaurants and grocery stores would rejoice, knowing that anyone who wanted to eat out or buy a banana would have to do it through them. Such is the state of U.S. skiing – what we have is all we're ever going to get*. The established mountains are not exactly monopolies, but they do not have to worry about unexpected new competition, either.There is one hack: if a would-be owner can find an abandoned ski area, the path to selling lift tickets and hauling weekenders up the incline becomes infinitely easier. It's the difference between fixing up a junkyard car and assembling one from the raw elements of the earth. You'd have a better chance of building a time machine out of cardboard boxes and a Nintendo Game Boy than you would of constructing a ski area on a raw New England hillside. But find one already scarred with the spiderweb of named trails, and you have a chance.It's not a good chance. Ski areas do come back: Saddleback in 2020, Tenney and Granite Gorge in 2023. Les Otten may bring the Balsams Wilderness back as a mega-resort. But most simply fade. There are hundreds of lost ski areas in New England – many times more have died than survived. Many big and established ski centers evaporated: Mt. Tom, Brodie, Crotched East, King Ridge, Moose Mountain, Mt. Whittier, Maple Valley, Plymouth Notch, Snow Valley. Empty lifts still swing over many of these mountains decades after they went bust, but none ever found its way back.So why this one? Why Granite Gorge? A small ski area in a state stuffed with giant ski areas, many of them a mainline shot off the interstate from Boston. Once the joint closed after a rough winter in 1977, that should have been it. Another lost ski area in a state littered with them.But then Granite Gorge re-opened, miraculously, improbably, in 2003, under Fred Baybutt, who also ran a local construction company with his family. Baybutt added snowmaking and night skiing, built a new lodge and a new bridge over from Route 9. He bought a used Borvig double and ran it to the summit.But the ski area never really found momentum under Baybutt. By 2018, the chairlift had ceased operations. The ropetow and carpet continued to spin, but in August 2020, Baybutt died suddenly, and the ski area appeared to die with him.Except that it didn't. Granite Gorge is back. Somehow, this 525-vertical foot, low-elevation molehill whose direct competitors include basically every ski area in Vermont, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts has more lives than a cartoon coyote smashed under an anvil. It's one of the best stories in New England skiing right now, and I had to hear it.*With rare exceptions, such as the forthcoming Mayflower, Utah.What we talked aboutWhat it's like to take that first general manager job; an overgrown mess; “I had to keep in mind that there was going to be an unlimited amount of punches that were going to be dealt”; how a busted Ford Taurus and a can of Red Bull foreshadowed the renaissance of Granite Gorge; Kreischer's messianic, decade-long quest to rescue Granite Gorge; how an ownership group “who really just wanted this thing back in the hands of the community” came together; advice for up-and-comers in the ski business; trying to save the lost Tanglwood ski area in Pennsylvania or Maple Valley in Vermont; Granite Gorge under the Baybutt family, the previous owners; Keene, New Hampshire; the rabid outdoor culture in the Northeast; how this time is different at Granite Gorge; fixing the bridge back to the ski area; helping ownership understand the enormous capital needs; the power of admitting your shortcomings; “if you don't know something, you need to find someone who does”; the comeback season was “awesome”; much love for Mountain Creek; finding a niche at Nashoba Valley; reviving the Granite Gorge double chair; why the ski area removed the lift's mid-station; Granite Gorge's snowmaking footprint and aspirations; how the ski area's new mountain bike operation will enhance glade skiing; surviving as a small ski area in a big ski state; night skiing; building terrain parks at an appropriate scale for mortals; running a mountain as a dad with five children; keeping lift tickets and passes affordable; a parking shortage; and competing against megapasses.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewI first connected with Keith sometime last spring, when he shot me an email with a promising update on Granite Gorge. The ski area was re-opening, he said, but I'd have to keep it to myself for the time being. Shortly after, the new ownership group officially named him general manager, and by August he was whacking weeds from beneath the Granite Gorge sign on Route 9 and brushing ticks off his legs.Excited as I was about this news, I generally don't ask folks to join me on the podcast until they've weathered at least one season leading their current resort. It's impossible to really know the place until you've sat teeth-gritted through a brown rain-soaked January and roared in glory at a nor-easter-driven March power-up. It's just not something you can appreciate through Zuckerberg's Oculus glasses. You have to be there.So we waited. In January, the ski area cranked open with its ropetow. The chairlift came online in mid-February. I was there the next day, taking fastlaps off the summit with my six-year-old. I stopped Kreischer for what would become my first #TwoMinuteStorm (basically, very short interviews with ski area managers) video on Instagram (click through to listen):Kreischer and I talked last summer, so I had a sense of his baseline. This podcast was almost like talking to a different person. It was like he'd spent 10 months cramming for a master's degree in Granite Gorge. Which I guess he had. But waiting was the right decision. Kreischer is a terrific ski area leader, thoughtful and passionate and enthusiastic and full of positive energy. He's the kind of guy who only gets more interested in a topic as he immerses himself in it. And after transforming an overgrown backwoods bump into a living business, his raw passion for the job had only amplified and become more focused. Last summer, Granite Gorge was an abstract thing. It was right there, waiting, but you could only really find it in your imagination. Now it's real. Now, he's actually done it. Actually re-opened a dead-as-the-dinosaurs ski area. Even if you normally just read this article and skip the podcast, listen to this one. Kreischer is as authentic and sincere as they get.Why you should ski Granite GorgeNot to be lazy with it, but I've covered this one already:Of all the ski states in America, I can't think of a rougher one to make a go as an operator than New Hampshire. There are so many good and large resorts and they are impossibly easy to access, stacked along I-93 like a snowy outlet mall. But here's little Granite Gorge, opened in 1959 but busted in the ‘70s and re-opened in 2003 and busted again in 2020 and now, improbably, opened again under a group of local business owners who bought it at auction last June. The joint sits in the southwest corner of the state, well off the main ski thoroughfares, which means it will make it as a locals' bump for Keene or it won't make it at all. I took my 6-year-old and we rolled 15 runs off the double chair that had re-opened the day before after not running since 2018. It was creaky and cranky and the mid-station was gone but it was running. We skied the same run over and over, a thin and windy green lolling off the summit. Six hundred vertical feet, up and down. Skier traffic was light but the tubing hill was full. It was a holiday weekend and we'd found a hack. No liftlines on a New England Sunday.Skiing there feels like being part of an excavation, as though they are digging things out of the ground and looking at them and trying to figure out what the ancients of New Hampshire could have been doing with such contraptions. It's spunky and plucky and a little ramshackle. You drive over a single-vehicle bridge to access a parking lot that's muddy and ungraded and unmanaged. They removed the chairlift mid-station, but it's still laying in parts scattered all over the woods. The lodge is squat and half-finished like a field hospital. But a strong spirit of revival is there, and if the owners can have patience enough to give this thing five years and focus on busloads of kids, it has a future.OK maybe not the best commercial for the place. But here's what Granite Gorge can give you: a completely uncrowded and inexpensive ski experience in a region that's getting short on both. Probably not your destination if you and the boys are looking to link Flipdoodle Supremes on monster kickers. Perfect if, like me, you're a dad who doesn't want to fight crowds on a holiday weekend. Or if you're a local looking to crush turns after work. Or if you live nearby and you have an Epic Pass but you just want to support the joint. There are worse places for your money.Podcast NotesOn the auction timelineThe current owners won Granite Gorge in an auction last June. From the June 6, 2022 Keene Sentinel:It took nearly 10 minutes of deliberation, two bidders dropping out and a back-and-forth bidding war amounting to $210,000 before a developer secured the rights to the former Granite Gorge Ski Area property along with the intent to reopen it for recreation.Between breaks of silence, bidders at Friday's foreclosure auction raised the stakes from an opening bid of $240,000 to a winning bid of $430,000 on site at the property, located along Route 9 in Roxbury. Bryan Granger, the senior vice president of Keene-based wholesale grocery company C&S Wholesale Grocers, clinched the final bid.Granger represented Granite Gorge Partnership, LLC at the auction, which claims itself to be a local group of Keene investors with a “shared desire of returning winter and summer activities to Granite Gorge in a safe and inclusive manner,” according to a media statement Granger provided to The Sentinel.The other bidder was a Massachusetts-based contractor named Nick Williamson.On Granite Gorge's troubled historyNew England Ski History provides a succinct timeline of Granite Gorge's history (the ski area was originally known as “Pinnacle”). A few highlights:Following the 1974-75 season, George LaBrecque transferred the ski area to Maurice Stone. One year later, Stone sold the area to Paul and Eleanor Jensen of Connecticut. Dealing with subpar snowfall, no snowmaking, and aging infrastructure, the Jensens only operated the Pinnacle for the 1976-77 season. Following the season, when mortgage payments were missed, Stone foreclosed and took back the property. There would be no more lift-served skiing at Pinnacle for the rest of the twentieth century.In November 1980, Stone sold the 94-acre Pinnacle property to Juanita Robinson of Kentucky and her three sons, one of whom lived in Massachusetts. Though “big plans” were teased with skiing to return in 1980 or 1981, Pinnacle remained idle.In December 1985, the Robinsons sold the property to Bald Mountain Park, Inc. The real estate entity held the property for fourteen years.In September 1999, Baybutt Construction purchased the former ski area and commenced studies for a potential reopening. …After a quarter of a century of idleness, the Pinnacle became a work site in the spring of 2002 when a new bridge was built from Route 9 to the base area.The Pinnacle reopened in early 2003 under the name of Granite Gorge. … The tiny startup on the Bunny Buster slope featured a rope tow and snowmaking. …After multiple years of planning and decades after the first proposal, Granite Gorge saw a significant expansion in 2005 with the addition of a double chairlift to Spruce Peak.Snowmaking and night skiing were expanded for 2006-07, which also featured a new base yurt. Snowmaking was expanded to the top of the chairlift for the 2008-2009 season, while night skiing followed up the mountain for the 2009-2010 season.In 2010 Granite Gorge was approved for a 300-person lodge, to be built in phases. Portions were completed in 2011 and 2012.In late 2012, parent company Baybutt Construction was dealing with escalating financial problems. One of Baybutt's lenders, Interstate Electrical Services Corp., arranged for a foreclosure auction of some of Baybutt's properties, including Granite Gorge ski area, for February 1, 2013. The auction was cancelled at the last minute and the ski area remained open. That month, Baybutt Construction Corp. filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.Granite Gorge continued to operate and grow in subsequent years, including adding to its off season offerings and events. …Granite Gorge scaled back operations for the 2018-19 season, as it ceased operating the chairlift and instead focused on snow tubing and skiing on the Bunny Buster trail. After nearly being auctioned off in the summer of 2019, the ski area continued to operate its surface lifts during the winter of 2019-20.On August 3, 2020, Fred Baybutt died of a sudden heart event at the age of 60. Following his death, Granite Gorge sat idle.On Tanglwood, PAKreischer recalls early snowboard adventures at Tanglwood, one of dozens of abandoned ski areas in Pennsylvania's Poconos. DCSki lists modest stats for the joint: 415 vertical feet on 35 acres served by two double chairs and a ropetow. The place closed around 2010 and liquidated its lifts in 2012. Here's a circa 2008 trailmap:I spent a few hours hiking the place back in 2021. Here's what I wrote at the time:Another 40 minutes up wild Pennsylvania highway is Tanglwood, 415 vertical feet shuttered since 2010. The mountain once had two doubles and two T-bars and a ropetow but now it has nothing, the place stripped as though looted by a ski grinch stuffing the chairs and tower guns into his wicked sleigh. Concrete lift towers anchored into the forest and the trails themselves are all that remain. The place is filled with deer. Like all the ski areas I visited that day it is lined with houses. It is late in the day and the American mole people are emerging to stand on their decks and tend to their plants and I wonder what it would be like to live on a ski area and then not live on a ski area because the ski area is gone and now you just live on a mountain where it hardly ever snows and you can hardly ever ski. I think I would be pissed.On Maple Valley, VermontKreischer also considered resurrecting Maple Valley, a thousand-footer in Southern Vermont. It had a nice little spread:The place opened in 1963 and made it, haltingly, to the end of the century under a series of owners. The culprit was likely a very tough neighborhood – Southern Vermont skiers have their choice of Stratton, Mount Snow, Bromley, or Magic. Maple Valley was just a little too close and a little too small to compete:I also included Granite Gorge on the map, so you can see how close the place is. I wouldn't have bet on Granite to re-open before Maple if pure ski terrain were the only factor to consider. But a fellow named Nicholas Mercede tried twice to open the ski area, according to New England Ski History. NIMBYs beat him back, and he died in 2018 at age 90.The lifts – a pair of 1960s Hall doubles – are, I believe, still standing. An outfit called “Sugar Mountain Holdings” has owned the ski area since 2018, and “a long-term vision was announced for possibly reopening the ski area,” according to New England Ski History.On Ski Resort Tycoon, the videogameKreischer's first run at ski resort management came via Ski Resort Tycoon, a 2000 sim game that you can still purchase on Amazon for $5.95. According to Wikipedia, “A Yeti can also be seen in the game, and it can be found eating the guests.” My God, can you imagine the insurance bill?On the density of New England ski areasNew England is one of the most competitive ski markets on the planet. It's certainly one of the densest, with 100 ski areas stuffed into 71,988 square miles – that's an area small than any major western ski state. The six New England states are small (Maine occupies nearly half of the total square mileage), so they share the glory, but their size masks just how tightly they are clustered. Check this stat: the number of ski areas per square mile across the six New England states is more than four times that of Colorado and six times that of Utah:Of course, New England ski areas tend to measure far smaller than those of the West. But the point of this exercise is to underscore the sheer volume of choices available to the New England skier. Here's what Granite Gorge is competing against as it works to establish itself as a viable business:That means the ski area is fighting against heavies like Mount Snow, Okemo, Stratton, and Mount Sunapee for its local Keene market – and the Keene market is essentially Granite Gorge's only market. There's probably a place for this little knuckler to act as a new-skier assembly line and weekend hideout for families and teenage Park Bros, but there's probably not a tougher place in America to pull this off than southwest New Hampshire.On Granite Gorge's mountain bike park and better glade skiing Kreischer believes that Granite Gorge cannot survive as a winter-only business. Earlier this spring, he announced the construction of a downhill mountain bike park. You can track their progress via Instagram:As regular readers know, I don't cover MTB, but we discuss these new trails in the context of their potential to enhance the ski area's glade network. Very little of Granite Gorge's face has been cut with trails. The potential for glade development is huge, and this initial poke into the forest is an excellent start.On Highland bike parkKreischer and I briefly discuss Highland Bike Park in New Hampshire. This is the only lift-served MTB park in New England that doesn't also double as a ski area. It was, in fact, once a 700-vertical-foot ski area. Here's a circa 1987 trailmap:Highland closed for skiing in 1995, and re-opened as a mountain bike park at some point over the next dozen years. Bike people tell me that the place is one of the best-regarded MTB facilities in New England. Here's the current bike trailmap:There are no current plans to re-open the area for skiing. “While there have been rumors that limited ski operations could resume in the future, the park remains biking-only at this point,” according to New England Ski History. Highland is in a tough spot for skiing, lodged between Ragged and Gunstock, which both have high-speed lifts and far more vertical. Highland sits just over two miles off Interstate 93, however, and there could be room in the market for a terrain-park only mountain à la Woodward Park City. Loon is the current terrain park king of New Hampshire, but it's crowded and expensive. Imagine a parks paradise with $50 day tickets and $300 season passes. That could work.On the alarm beeping in the backgroundYou may notice an alarm beeping in the background during the latter half of the podcast. I thought this was on my end, and I planned to simply edit the noise out, since I'm listening most of the time. After the podcast, I came up the stairs toting a ladder, prepared to dismantle the fire alarm. My wife looked at me, baffled. “What beeping?” she asked. Well, it was on Keith's end. Hopefully he wasn't so devoted to the podcast that he let his house burn down while recording it. Though I doubt that. Maybe he is Batman and that was his Batman alarm alerting him to nearby crimes. Though frankly I'm not sure a superhero could have revived Granite Gorge in six months. So it was probably just his You're Awesome alarm going off. All part of the story here.On an assist from Pats PeakKeith followed up via email after our call to throw some credit to his contemporary at Pats Peak: “I was reflecting on our conversation last night and one huge thing I forgot to mention was Kris Blomback and the help from Pat's Peak. They were instrumental in giving us a patrol sled and some awesome rental equipment that was a big deal getting us going this season. Kris is an amazing guy and a great leader. When I listened to his podcast episode with you, his words of advice to me was virtually verbatim, which really showcases his honesty, class, and true passion for bolstering skiing in this region. I really want to thank Kris and the rest of the Pats team for their help and assistance bringing us back to being a feeder for the entire Southern NH region.”On New Hampshire skiingI am an enormous, unapologetic fan of New Hampshire skiing. The mountains are many and varied, each one distinct. I've hosted a number of New Hampshire resort leaders on the podcast, and I have conversations scheduled with Cranmore GM Ben Wilcox and Attitash GM Brandon Swartz later this year. I also recorded an episode with Dartmouth Skiway GM Mark Adamczyk earlier this week – you'll have that one soon. Here's what's in the catalog right now:* Loon Mountain GM Brian Norton – Nov. 14, 2022* Pats Peak GM Kris Blomback – Sept. 22, 2022* Ragged Mountain GM Erik Barnes – April 29, 2022* Whaleback Executive Director Jon Hunt – June 17, 2021* Waterville Valley President and GM Tim Smith – Feb. 23, 2021* Gunstock President and GM Tom Day – Jan. 13, 2021* Cannon Mountain GM John DeVivo – Oct. 12, 2020* Loon Mountain President and GM Jay Scambio – Feb. 7, 2020The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing in North America year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 51/100 in 2023, and number 437 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Find peace in the calming sounds of nature with these soothing mountain creek sounds. Let the gentle flow of water take you to a place of relaxation and tranquility. This episode is perfect for sleep, meditation, or simply relaxing after a long day! Unwind your mind as this soundscape helps you to reconnect with nature. Please remember to rate our podcast on your listening platform! -------------------------------- Check out our additional Playlists -------------------------------- Special thank you to our partners: ⁠Joy Organics⁠ (Use code 'calming' for 25% off) ⁠altCamp⁠ (Use code 'calming' for 10% off) ⁠Hexa Health⁠ -------------------------------- ⁠Contact Us for Partnership Inquiries⁠ -------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: Remember that loud sounds can potentially damage your hearing. When playing Calming White Noise, if you cannot have a conversation over the sound without raising your voice, the sound may be too loud for your ears. Calming White Noise provides relaxing sounds for entertainment purposes only and are not a treatment for tinnitus, sleep disorders, stress, or anxiety. © Calming White Noise LLC, 2023. All rights reserved.  calmingpodcast.com

Adam is joined by Eric to recap Spartan's Spring event at Mountain Creek in Vernon, NJ. Awful weather aside, there were a few changes for 2023. And does Spartan have a competitive race integrity issue?More EpisodesFacebookFollow Adam & Lindsey on Instagram:@adamg_ocr @staywild_lindsey

A car that was pulled out of Lake Norman on Wednesday belongs to a woman who hasn't been seen for nearly 15 years, according to the Catawba County Sheriff's Office. Human remains were also found inside. Deputies said they were tipped off to the likelihood of a submerged vehicle on Monday, Feb. 6 in the Mountain Creek area of the lake. A fisherman reported seeing a shape consistent with a car while using a sonar device. Deputies said Sherills Ford-Terrell Fire Rescue deployed an underwater robot into the water, confirming the car was there. Crews were able to recover the car on Wednesday, further confirming that it was the 1996 Ford Thunderbird driven by Tina Martin. Martin went missing from her Catawba County home in Feb. 2008, and was 43 years old at the time. Deputies also confirmed human remains were found within, and have notified Martin's next of kin. DNA testing is now being sought; as of publication, the remains have not been positively identified. The circumstances surrounding Martin's disappearance still remain under investigation. READ MORE: https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/crime/catawba-county-missing-woman-tina-martin-2008-north-carolina-local/275-3c145fe3-cff8-4337-ba28-b9222e7067f4 A bill increasing punishments for violent protests following the 2020 demonstrations over George Floyd's murder passed the North Carolina House on Wednesday despite harsh criticism from social justice advocates. Some bipartisan support signals a potential override of any veto by Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper, who issued one that blocked similar legislation two years ago. Like the 2021 proposal, the new bill was spearheaded by Republican House Speaker Tim Moore, who has cited rioting and looting that he saw firsthand in downtown Raleigh in June 2020 amid otherwise peaceful protests as an impetus for the legislation. The bill, which has one House Democrat as a chief sponsor, cleared the chamber 75-43 with six Democrats and all Republicans present voting yes. It now heads to the Senate. Republican gains in both the House and Senate from elections this past November now give the GOP a veto-proof majority in the Senate and put it within one seat of a similar majority in the House. READ MORE: https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/politics/north-carolina-politics/bill-raising-riot-penalties-north-carolina-house/275-d0dda4b7-e4d5-489d-8a45-5042c4288ad8 Watch Wake Up Charlotte each weekday morning from 4:30 to 7 a.m. on WCNC Charlotte, and as always, join the conversation on social media using #WakeUpCLT! 

A car that was pulled out of Lake Norman on Wednesday belongs to a woman who hasn't been seen for nearly 15 years, according to the Catawba County Sheriff's Office. Human remains were also found inside.Deputies said they were tipped off to the likelihood of a submerged vehicle on Monday, Feb. 6 in the Mountain Creek area of the lake. A fisherman reported seeing a shape consistent with a car while using a sonar device. Deputies said Sherills Ford-Terrell Fire Rescue deployed an underwater robot into the water, confirming the car was there.Crews were able to recover the car on Wednesday, further confirming that it was the 1996 Ford Thunderbird driven by Tina Martin. Martin went missing from her Catawba County home in Feb. 2008, and was 43 years old at the time.Deputies also confirmed human remains were found within, and have notified Martin's next of kin. DNA testing is now being sought; as of publication, the remains have not been positively identified.The circumstances surrounding Martin's disappearance still remain under investigation.READ MORE: https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/crime/catawba-county-missing-woman-tina-martin-2008-north-carolina-local/275-3c145fe3-cff8-4337-ba28-b9222e7067f4A bill increasing punishments for violent protests following the 2020 demonstrations over George Floyd's murder passed the North Carolina House on Wednesday despite harsh criticism from social justice advocates. Some bipartisan support signals a potential override of any veto by Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper, who issued one that blocked similar legislation two years ago.Like the 2021 proposal, the new bill was spearheaded by Republican House Speaker Tim Moore, who has cited rioting and looting that he saw firsthand in downtown Raleigh in June 2020 amid otherwise peaceful protests as an impetus for the legislation.The bill, which has one House Democrat as a chief sponsor, cleared the chamber 75-43 with six Democrats and all Republicans present voting yes. It now heads to the Senate.Republican gains in both the House and Senate from elections this past November now give the GOP a veto-proof majority in the Senate and put it within one seat of a similar majority in the House.READ MORE: https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/politics/north-carolina-politics/bill-raising-riot-penalties-north-carolina-house/275-d0dda4b7-e4d5-489d-8a45-5042c4288ad8Watch Wake Up Charlotte each weekday morning from 4:30 to 7 a.m. on WCNC Charlotte, and as always, join the conversation on social media using #WakeUpCLT! 

To support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Dec. 27. It dropped for free subscribers on Dec. 30. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription.WhoJoe VanderKelen, President of SMI Snow Makers  Recorded onNovember 28, 2022About SMI Snow MakersSMI is the largest U.S.-based snowmaking manufacturer, and one of the biggest such outfits in the world. Their guns sit at more than 1,000 facilities – mostly, but not exclusively, ski areas – all over the world. The company is based in Midland, Michigan, a place so flat that, if you turned it on its side, you'd roll forever and then simply tumble off the edge of the planet. An odd-seeming locale, perhaps, for a snowmaking manufacturer, until you've spent a winter there on those windy, frozen plains. SMI is not what we'd call a “consumer-facing brand,” but you'll see their product markings - V2, Axis, Grizzly, FreedomX, Puma, PoleCat, Wizzard - as you ski around. Super Puma is the one I seem to see most often, a stocky cannon with adjustable footings, perched hill-wise like a medieval defense. SMI's various guns have served eight Olympic venues, a point of immense pride for what is still a family-run operation. Joe's parents founded the company back in the ‘70s. He's been running it since 1991. You can learn more about them here:If you're ever driving US 10 through central Michigan, you can't miss the SMI factory and HQ, seated off the freeway just past the junction with Business 10 as you head west:Why I interviewed himA few weeks back, I wrote about the heroic efforts of ski areas throughout the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, and Northeast to open in November in spite of abnormally warm early-season weather. After nodding to the usual aggressive corporate-owned badasses such as Sunday River and Killington, I called out some of the smaller operations that cracked open around the same time:More impressive, however, was New York State-owned Belleayre, seated just over two hours north of New York City, which opened the same day as Sugarloaf, beating most of New England to launch. Sister resort Gore also opened that day. Whiteface went live the following day, delivering its first-ever opening on the mountain's full 3,166-foot vertical drop. Vail Resorts' Hunter Mountain opened that day as well. Windham, five miles away (as the crow flies), opened Monday, Nov. 21. Further south, Bousquet, Massachusetts; Wisp, Maryland; and Massanutten, Virginia opened Nov. 25. In never-snowy Indiana, Perfect North opened Nov. 22, the mountain's third-earliest opening in its 43-season history.These sudden openings were not, I continued, spontaneous:These ski areas are not anomalies. They did not get lucky. Their rapid openings under marginal conditions across vast and varied geographic regions are the direct result of yearslong investments in better and more efficient snowmaking. They are the best-case present, yes, showcases of the most technologically advanced snowmaking equipment. But they also represent the future. One in which ski area operators are not passive victims of climate change, but active combatants against it, making more snow than ever in spite of less-than-ideal conditions, and doing so with equipment that uses a fraction of the energy of previous generations of snowmaking machinery.Much of that machinery comes from SMI, including nearly the entire system at Perfect North:Perhaps the most improbable get-open-and-stay-open outfit in the country is Perfect North. The ski area's base sits at just 400 feet. Of the 108 operating Midwest ski areas, only two sit farther south (Vail-owned Paoli Peaks, Indiana and Hidden Valley, Missouri). And yet, the ski area opened on just four partial days of snowmaking, which Perfect North General Manager Jonathan Davis characterized as “two mediocre nights, one fantastic night, and one good night.” Despite having just six additional snowmaking windows since, the ski area now sits at just over 50 percent open.Davis credits a few factors for this quick ramp-up: a 12,000-gallon-per-minute pumphouse feeding 260 snowguns, a seat on a valley floor that traps cold air, and institutional knowledge that can often predict snowmaking windows that the local weather forecasters miss.Again, this ski area sits in Indiana, where it snows like four inches per decade. There should not be skiing there. But there is. Because of SMI.Lift-served skiing in the United States does not exist without snowmaking. At least not as a commercial enterprise. Maybe it's something a few Bear-Trap Billys do, tromping off into the Cascades in their Army surplus jackets and skinny skis. Perhaps there are even a few ski areas. But without the big-city bases of voyaging tourists, who learn and practice on locals like Mountain Creek, New Jersey and Wachusett, Massachusetts and Afton Alps, Minnesota and Alpine Valley in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Ohio, the economic superstructure to support large-scale Rocky Mountain operations simply isn't there. What we talked aboutThe SMI story; Michigan skiing; a life of adventure running a global company; breaking down the company's footprint; how one of the flattest places on the planet became one of the global epicenters of snowmaking; Made in the USA pride; getting ahead of supply-chain problems and heading off future shortages; the company's one-of-a-kind snowmaking facility and why it's special; a primer on the global snowmaking industry and SMI's place in it; Snowmaking 101; why resorts blow snow into piles; the evolution of snow machines over time into more efficient, higher-capacity, simpler machines that make better snow and work in more variable temperatures; wet bulb temperature; making snow at the extremes; what snowmaking automation is and what it means; the amazing weather variability on a single mountain; “automated doesn't mean unattended”; ongoing resistance to automation and whether SMI will continue to offer manual snowmaking equipment; where snowmaking tech is headed in the future; swapping mechanical problems for tech problems as equipment grows more sophisticated; breaking down SMI's product lines; all-weather snowmaking; the lifecycle of a snowgun and how long the best of them can last; maintaining guns after install; creating a new system from scratch; a snowmaking system is like “a golf course irrigation system on a mountain,” but one that requires “really expensive sprinkler heads”; returning snowmaking water to the watershed; responding to the reductive environmental complaints about snowmaking as an energy and resource drain; [yes that's an NYC car alarm blaring in the background]; energy efficiency as a mission; creative energy-saving strategies; the amazing snowmaking installation that modernized Arizona Snowbowl; snowmaking as wildfire mitigation tool; how the ski industry can push back against the narrative that it's an energy hog and environmental liability; creating a new wonder of the world to pump snow onto the Olympic venues in Sochi; the resilience of skiing in the age of climate change; whether every ski area will eventually need snowmaking; intel on the next potential great ski regions; and skiing in Ukraine.      Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewListeners constantly write to me suggesting this or that interview. I appreciate this, and respond even when the suggestion is some version of “my cousin skied every ski area in Ohio in a single season and he has a great story and you should feature him on your podcast.” And I'm like thanks Bro but if I wanted to do podcasts with people my listeners wouldn't care about, I know plenty of them in real life. The Storm interviewee profile is not so much exclusive as it is well-defined: to qualify for this seat, you really either need to run a mountain, be in charge of people who do, write about lift-served skiing for a living, run some kind of website that's materially additive to the knowledge base around the sport, or make something that's fundamental to the enterprise, such as chairlifts or trailmaps.Joe, obviously, falls into the latter category. And he also holds the unofficial title of most-requested interview by my listeners/readers. Skiers really, really want to hear about snowmaking. Many – especially those who work in skiing – called out Joe in particular. So here you go.So why did I wait so long if this one was so obvious? Well, I tend to favor subjects I understand. And snowmaking, despite its relative simplicity from a mechanical point of view, has always seemed a bit intimidating as a discussion point. This matters when I'm shaping the questions that guide the interview.But, last summer, I finally toured the SMI factory and met Joe and his team in person. I grilled him for a couple hours and he showed me around and I was like yeah let's do this. Joe was an outstanding guest, who's lived his craft for decades, and I probably should have done it a lot sooner.What I got wrongI said that Taos was protected from wildfires because it sat at the end of a “valley.” I meant to say “canyon.” I discussed this at length with Taos CEO David Norden on the podcast last year:Podcast Notes* I mentioned that various folks claim to have invented snowmaking. Was it a Hollywood technical director in 1934? Was it a trio of Connecticut inventors? Grossinger's Resort in the Catskills? Mohawk Mountain? A Toronto ski club? It seems as though half the ski area websites in America include some tale about Old Cyrus Jenkins III creating the world's first snowgun with a hose and a ceiling fan strapped to a modified table saw. There's a reason for that: from a mechanical and physics point of view, snow is not that hard to make. What's hard is doing it well, which is why there are so few industrial-grade snowmaking companies today. Who made the first snowgun? I don't really know or, frankly, care, and I'll let the historians fight it out.* I actually grew up in Midland County, Michigan, where SMI's headquarters is located. There are no ski areas there. The closest, when I grew up in the small town of Sanford, were Apple Mountain in Freeland (now closed), Mott Mountain in Farwell (closed), and Snow Snake up in Harrison (still, thankfully, operating). All were less than an hour away, but SMI was the closest ski-related landmark. The factory sits directly off the US 10 expressway, the most important road in the area, and its multi-colored mural, rows of snowguns, and piles of manmade snow are impossible to miss while driving past.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 137/100 in 2022, and number 383 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

To support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Dec. 24. It dropped for free subscribers on Dec. 27. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription.WhoShaun Sutner, snowsports columnist for the Worcester Telegram & Gazette and Telegram.comRecorded onNovember 21, 2022About Shaun SutnerShaun is a skier, a writer, and a journalist based in Worcester, Massachusetts. For the past 18 years, he's been pumping out a snowsports column from Thanksgiving to April. For the past two years, he's joined me on The Storm Skiing Podcast to rap about it. You should follow Shaun on social media to stay locked into his work:Why I interviewed himI've often said that the best interviews are with people who don't have bosses. That's true. Mostly. But not exclusively. Because journalists are just as good. And that's because they possess many attributes crucial to holding an interesting conversation: on-the-ground experience, the ability to tell a story, and a commitment to truth. Really. That is the whole point of the job. Listen to the Storm Skiing Podcasts with Eric Wilbur, Jackson Hogen, or Jason Blevins. They are among the best of the 122 episodes I've published before today. It's a different gig from the running-a-mountain-and-making-you-want-to-ski-that-mountain post that 75 percent of my guests hold. And these writers deliver a different kind of conversation, and one that enriches The Storm immensely.I'd like to host more ski journalists, but there just aren't that many of them. It's a weird fact of America and skiing that there are far more ski areas than there are American ski journalists. The NSAA lists 473 active ski areas. NASJA (the North American Snowsports Journalists Association) counts far fewer active members. The NBA, by contrast, has 30 teams and perhaps thousands of reporters covering them around the world. There's a lot more happening in skiing than there are paid observers to keep track of it all, is my point here.But there are a few. And Sutner is one of the real pros – one who's been skiing New England for most of his life, and writing about it for decades. His column is enlightened and interesting, essential reading for the entire Northeast. We had a great conversation last year, and we agreed to make it an annual thing.What we talked aboutWell I still can't pronounce “Worcester,” but we didn't discuss it this time which thank God; opening day vibes at Mount Snow; comparing last year's days-skied goal to reality; that Uphill Bro life and chewing up all our pow Brah; surveying the different approaches to New England uphill access; cross-country skiing and the opportunity of the Indy Pass; skiing in NYC; the countless ski areas of Quebec; Tremblant, overrated?; Le Massif; pass quivers; the importance of racing and race leagues to recreational skiing; why the rise of freeskiing hasn't killed ski racing; Sutner's long-running snowsports column; the importance of relationships in journalism; the Wachusett MACHINE; Sutner defends the honor of Ski Ward, my least-favorite ski area; the legacy of Sutner's brother Adam, former executive at Vail, Jackson Hole, and Crystal, who passed away suddenly last year; reaction to PGRI purchasing Jay Peak; what's next for Burke?; the future of Gunstock; Mount Sunapee crowding; Crotched, Attitash, and Wildcat's 2021-22 struggles; what the Epic Day Pass says about Vail's understanding of New Hampshire; whether Vail's pay increases and lift ticket sales limits will be enough to fix the company's operational issues in New Hampshire; the impact of Kanc 8 on Loon and what that could mean for new lifts at Stowe and Mount Snow; New England's lift renaissance; eight-packs and redistributing skiers; let's play Fantasy Ski Resort owner with Sugarloaf; the investment binge at Loon; high-speed double chairs; will Magic ever get Black Quad live?; the rebuilding of Catamount; a New England lift wishlist; Berkshire East; fake vertical; Smuggs' lift fleet; the future of Big Squaw; The Balsams; Whaleback; Granite Gorge; and Tenney.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewWell the intent was to push this podcast out alongside the debut of Sutner's first column of the year, on Thanksgiving Day. I, uh, missed that target. But I'll fix that whole timing bit, and you can expect a Sutner appearance on The Storm Skiing Podcast every Thanksgiving week for as long as he's interested in doing it.What I got wrong* I noted in the podcast that it was a 15-minute drive from Mountain Creek to High Point Cross Country Ski Center in New Jersey – it's closer to half an hour.* Sutner and I referenced Seven Brothers at Loon as an unfinished lift. That was true when we recorded this podcast on Nov. 21, but the lift opened on Dec. 17.* Sutner referenced a New England lift project that he knew about but that was not public yet – it's public now, and you can read about it here.* Shaun referred to a “little-known” summit T-bar at Sugarloaf. It must be a really well-kept secret, because I can't find any reference to it, now or in the past.Why you should read Sutner's columnBecause what I wrote last year is still true:Because it's focused, intelligent, researched, fact-checked, spell-checked, and generally just the sort of professional-level writing that is increasingly subsumed by the LOLing babble of the emojisphere. That's fine – everyone is lost in the scroll. But as the pillars of ski journalism burn and topple around us, it's worth supporting whatever's left. Gannett, the parent company of the Worcester Telegram & Gazette, has imposed fairly stringent paywalls on his work. While I think these local papers are best served by offering a handful of free articles per month, the paper is worth supporting if it's your local – in the same way you might buy a local ski pass to complement your Epkon Pass. Good, consistent writing is not so easy to find. Sutner delivers. Support his craft.I wish there was one place where all of Sutner's columns were collected, but the reality of being part of a larger entity is that your work gets mashed together with everything else. Here are direct links to Sutner's columns so far this season:* Skiing Vail Remains a Treasured Rocky Mountain Experience* Plenty of Updates and Upgrades have Crotched Mountain Resort Thriving in New Hampshire* Key Improvements Signal Strong Seasons Ahead for Attitash, Wildcat Ski Areas* World Cup Ski Racing Continues to Thrive at KillingtonSutner's column tends to be less-newsy, more focused on the long-term than the what-just-happened? But, thanks to decades of experience and a deep well of sources, he can fire off a breaking news story in a hurry when he needs to. Earlier this month, for example, he turned around this dispatch about Wachusett's sudden cancellation of its volunteer Ski Patrol program – known locally as “Rangers” – in just a few hours:Wachusett Mountain Ski Area ended its volunteer Ranger program at the start of the ski and snowboard season last month in an unexpected move that could have safety consequences on the mountain's busy slopes, at least in the short term. The ski area apparently was forced into ending or suspending the program due to an investigation by the state attorney general's office into whether treating the Rangers as volunteers violates state labor laws. A spokeswoman for the AG's office declined to comment on whether the office is investigating Wachusett.The case could have national ramifications in the ski industry, where more than 600 ski areas across the country use volunteer ski patrollers under the umbrella of the nonprofit National Ski Patrol, as well as volunteers similar to Rangers. Read the full story here:Podcast Notes* Sutner and I discussed Wachusett quite a bit, and specifically my podcast interview with resort President Jeff Crowley from last year:* We also had a long discussion about Ski Ward, which stemmed from this write-up I published in February:Ski Ward, 25 miles southwest, makes Nashoba Valley look like Aspen. A single triple-chair rising 220 vertical feet. A T-bar beside that. Some beginner surface lifts lower down. Off the top three narrow trails that are steep for approximately six feet before leveling off for the run-out back to the base. It was no mystery why I was the only person over the age of 14 skiing that evening.Normally my posture at such community- and kid-oriented bumps is to trip all over myself to say every possible nice thing about its atmosphere and mission and miraculous existence in the maw of the EpKonasonics. But this place was awful. Like truly unpleasant. My first indication that I had entered a place of ingrained dysfunction was when I lifted the safety bar on the triple chair somewhere between the final tower and the exit ramp and the liftie came bursting out of his shack like he'd just caught me trying to steal his chickens. “The sign is there,” he screamed, pointing frantically at the “raise bar here” sign jutting up below the top station just shy of unload. At first I didn't realize he was talking to me and so I ignored him and this offended him to the point where he – and this actually happened – stopped the chairlift and told me to come back up the ramp so he could show me the sign. I declined the opportunity and skied off and away and for the rest of the evening I waited until I was exactly above his precious sign before raising the safety bar.All night, though, I saw this b******t. Large, aggressive, angry men screaming – screaming – at children for this or that safety-bar violation. The top liftie laid off me once he realized I was a grown man, but it was too late. Ski Ward has a profoundly broken customer-service culture, built on bullying little kids on the pretext of lift safety. Someone needs to fix this. Now.Look, I am not anti-lift bar. I put it down every time, unless I am out West and riding with some version of Studly Bro who is simply too f*****g cool for such nonsense. But that was literally my 403rd chairlift ride of the season and my 2,418th since I began tracking ski stats on my Slopes app in 2018. Never have I been lectured over the timing of my safety-bar raise. So I was surprised. But if Ski Ward really wants to run their chairlifts with the rulebook specificity of a Major League Baseball game, all they have to do is say, “Excuse me, Sir, can you please wait to get to the sign before raising your bar next time?” That would have worked just as well, and would have saved them this flame job. For a place that caters to children, they need to do much, much better.As I'm wont to do, I followed that write-up with casual Ward-bashing on Twitter. Sutner took exception to this, saying that I was oversimplifying it and working on too small a sample size. Which, fair enough. He further defends the ski area's honor in our pod, though frankly I remain salty about the place.* Sutner spoke at length about his brother Adam, a member of Crystal Mountain, Washington's executive team, who died suddenly in April. Shaun wrote his younger brother's obituary, which reads in part:Adam lived and worked overseas in the advertising and tech business in Amsterdam, Brussels, London, Paris, Tokyo and Melbourne. He also lived and worked in advertising and the ski industry in New York City, Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and in Vail, Colo., Jackson Hole, Wyo., and Greenwater, Wash.He lived the life he wanted to live.He was widely known for working hard and being a leader in the ski industry profession he loved, often starting work before dawn.Adam loved French Martinis, fast cars and motorcycles, high-speed skiing, music, reading literature and non-fiction, wok cooking, James Bond and art heist caper movies and smoking his beloved cigarillos. He was an ardent fan of international soccer and rugby.He liked to pick up and drop off at the airport the steady stream of visitors who he accommodated, with utmost hospitality, at his various well-appointed homes. He collected watches, fine art and mid-century modern furniture and accessories.He was a witty storyteller, entertaining family and friends with tales of his lifelong travels and adventures. He had an acerbic sense of humor and keen intellect.Read the full obit here:The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 136/100 in 2022, and number 382 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

In this episode Nicole and Sarah host Halley O'Brien, an avid snowboarder who has made outdoor adventuring her career as an on-camera personality, writer and producer. Halley is a mother of 3 boys (she just recently welcomed twins!), is the founder of The Snow Report and has her own podcast (Beyond the Apres).  Halley tells us about learning to snowboard at Mountain Creek in New Jersey and falling in love with it immediately - even though her tailbone did not :)  Halley walks us through her career path from a communications major to pounding the pavement at ski resorts and making her way into the ski industry business.  Halley started at Mount Snow as their on mountain “Snow Reporter”, and that led her to found The Snow Report. Halley moved out to Colorado and started her own production company - working with Vail Resorts, The Weather Channel, Snow Country and then pitched her own show to Ski Magazine.  Halley makes fast paced and super funny videos on all sorts of ski and snow related topics - from pond skimming to beer and gear reviews - we found ourselves laughing out loud when we tuned in.  Halley and her husband are teaching their son to snowboard (starting at 13 months!) at Mountain Creek on a Burton Riglet board, a board designed specifically for the tiniest rippers. Halley now has a number of roles back at Mountain Creek and at Big Snow American Dream (indoor ski resort in New Jersey). Mountain Creek has a great ski school with progress based learning features that help guide new skiers as they build their basic ski skills. Mountain Creek has night skiing and is only an hour outside of NYC. Check out the links below to see Halley in action!Resources:Mountain Creek (NJ) https://mountaincreek.com/Mount Snow (VT) https://www.mountsnow.com/Burton Riglet https://www.burton.com/discover/s/article/burton-rigletBig Snow https://www.bigsnowamericandream.com/Eurosock https://amzn.to/3EmgGLeKeep up with the Latest from Halley:Ski Mag Snow ReportThe Snow ReportWebsite: http://www.halleyobrien.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/halleyobrienTwitter: https://twitter.com/halleyobrienInstagram: https://instagram.com/halleyobrienYouTube: https://youtube.com/@HalleyOBrienMediaPodcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-the-apr%C3%A8s/id1542825138Please Help Support our Podcast:Visit Mabels Labels to personalize your own labels!Use code SKIMOMS at checkout for 15% off your purchaseJoin the Ski Moms Fun Community! Follow us on Instagram @skimomsfunCheck out the Ski Moms Fun Store at www.skimomsfun.comContact us sarah@skimomsfun.com

In this episode Nicole hosts Mirna Valerio, better known as The Mirnavator, an endurance athlete who fell in love with skiing later in life and never looked back. Mirna tells us about starting her blog to make a place for plus size endurance runners that led to a career as a spokesperson for many well known brands including Lululemon, LL Bean and Hydroflask. Mirna first took ski lessons over 10 years ago at Mountain Creek when she was a teacher in New Jersey. She loved it from the start, even though some of her early ski experiences ended with spectacular falls.  Then in 2021 she started taking lessons again at Sugarbush and Bolton Valley.  She shares the ups and downs of learning to ski as an adult and letting go of control.  She enjoys taking lessons at different ski resorts and finds it is a great way to get to know a mountain. Mirna shares some of the challenges of finding plus size ski gear for women and where she has found some great plus size options. She hopes that more ski brands will expand to plus sizes in the future. Follow Mirna on social media (links below) and you will see that she shares her ski journey in realistic full color, showing both the falls and the successes! Resources:Plus Snow (Plus Size Ski Gear) https://plussnow.com/Mountain Creek Ski Area https://mountaincreek.com/Sugarbush Ski Resort https://www.sugarbush.com/ Bolton Valley https://www.boltonvalley.com/Snow King https://snowkingmountain.com/Keep up with the Latest from Mirna!Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheMirnavatorTwitter: https://twitter.com/themirnavatorInstagram: https://instagram.com/themirnavatorBuy Mirna's Book, A Beautiful Work in Progress , on Amazon here.Please Help Support our Podcast:Visit Mabels Labels to personalize your own labels!Use code SKIMOMS at checkout for 15% off your purchaseCheck out the Ski Pack at www.puremountainfun.com and use code SKIMOMS2022 for 20% off your orderJoin the Ski Moms Fun Community! Follow us on Instagram @skimomsfunCheck out the Ski Moms Fun Store at www.skimomsfun.comContact us sarah@skimomsfun.com

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To support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This podcast hit paid subscribers’ inboxes on July 16. Free subscribers got it on July 19. WhoBone Bayse, General Manager of Gore Mountain, New YorkRecorded onJune 27, 2022About Gore MountainClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: New York State – managed by the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA)Pass affiliations: NY Ski 3 with Whiteface and Belleayre; former member of the now-defunct M.A.X. PassLocated in: North Creek, New YorkClosest neighboring ski areas: Dynamite Hill (25 minutes), Hickory (30 minutes –closed since 2015 but intends to re-open), Newcomb (40 minutes), Oak Mountain (42 minutes), West Mountain (45 minutes)Base elevation: 998 feet (at North Creek Ski Bowl)Summit elevation: 3,600 (at Gore Mountain)Vertical drop: 2,537 feet (lift-served – lifts do not reach the top of Gore Mountain)Skiable Acres: 448Average annual snowfall: 125 inchesTrail count: 108 (11% easy, 48% intermediate, 41% advanced)Lift count: 14 (1 gondola, 2 high-speed quads, 4 fixed-grip quads, 3 triples, 1 J-bar, 1 Poma, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog’s inventory of Gore’s lift fleet)Why I interviewed himIf you told me I could only ski one New York ski area for the rest of my life, I would pick Gore, and I wouldn’t have to even consider it. If you told me I could only ski one ski area in the Northeast outside of Northern Vermont for the rest of my life, then I would still pick Gore. And if you told me I could only ski one Northeast ski area for the rest of my life and you threw in a magic snowcloud that delivered Green Mountain Spine-level snowfalls to eastern New York… well, I’d probably have to go with Jay Peak or Smuggs or Stowe or Sugarbush, but if my commute still had to start in Brooklyn, then Gore would be a strong contender.This is a damn fine chunk of real estate, is my point here. The skiing is just terrific. There’s a reason that New York Ski Blog founder Harvey Road makes Gore, along with Plattekill, his home base. It’s a big, interesting ski area, a state-owned property that somehow feels anti-establishment, a sort of outpost for the gritty, toughguy skier who has little use for the Rockies or, for that matter, Vermont. It’s the sort of place where people rack up 100-day seasons even if it only snows 45 inches (as happened over the 2015-16 ski season, according to Snowpak).  But Gore really needs snow to be Gore. And that’s because the best part about the skiing is the mountain’s massive glade network, which threads its way around, over, and through the ski area’s many peaks. The woods are well-considered and well-maintained, marked and secret, rambling and approachable. None of them, outside a half dozen turns on Chatiemac and a few others, are particularly steep. At low-snow Gore, this is a plus – it doesn’t take a lot of snow to fill in the trees, and the snow tends to hold once it falls.Talk to anyone who has toured the New York ski scene, and you’ll hear familiar – if sometimes unfair – complaints. Hunter is too crowded, Windham too expensive, Whiteface too icy. No one ever has anything bad to say about Gore, even though it can sometimes be some version of all of those things. The one consistent nit about the place is its sprawling setup, but that breadth is precisely what keeps liftlines short to nonexistent, outside of the gondola, nearly every day of the ski season. And locals know how to work around the traverses that drive day-skiers nutso. It’s an elegant machine once you learn how to drive it.I get a lot of requests for podcasts. Gore is one of the most frequent. If it ran for president of New York skiing, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t need a recount. I’ve been after this one for a long time, and I’m happy we were finally able to deliver it.What we talked aboutThe longest ski season in Gore Mountain history; how the mountain reached May and whether they’ll try to do so again in the future; ORDA’s commitment to the long season; snowmaking; the singular experience of life in the southern Adirondacks; Gore in the 1980s; the story behind the Burnt Ridge and Snow Bowl expansions; the new trail coming to Burnt Ridge for  next winter; don’t worry Barkeater will be OK!; why the new summer attractions have to be built at North Creek; Ski Bowl history; riding trucks up the mountain; the death of the ski train; how much of the historic North Creek ski area Gore was able to incorporate into its expansion; Nordic skiing at Gore; the huge new lift-lodge-zipline project planned for North Creek; the anticipated alignment of the new Hudson chair; a potential timeline for the whole project; how Gore could evolve if it had two fully developed base areas; whether more trails could be inbound for North Creek (or anywhere else at Gore); Gore’s expansive and ever-expanding glades; a wishlist for lift upgrades; which lift could get an extension; details on the new lift type and alignment for Bear Cub; possible replacements for Straight Brook and Topridge; in defense of fixed-grip lifts; whether we could ever see the gondola return to the Gore Mountain summit; why the North Quad terminates below the gondola; the potential for slopeside lodging at Gore; the Ski3 Pass; why Belleayre still has a standalone pass but Gore does not; why ORDA dropped the every-sixth-day-free from the Ski3 frequency card and whether that could return; why Gore didn’t migrate from the M.A.X. Pass to the Ikon Pass; whether Gore could ever join the Ikon or Indy Passes; staffing up in spite of the challenges; how ORDA determines wages; and the World University Games.        Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewAnytime would be a good time for a Gore interview. There is always something new. In 2020, Gore was one of a handful of ski areas in North America that went ahead with planned lift projects, upgrading High Peaks and Sunway, a pair of unreliable antiques, with new fixed-grip quads. The ski area’s rapid expansion over the past 15 years – with the additions of Burnt Ridge, North Creek Ski Bowl, and countless glades, both mapped and not – is nearly unequaled in the United States. Gore is, and has been for a very long time, a place where big things are happening.Part of the reason for that rapid growth is the 2018 announcement that New York will host the 2023 World University Games. Gore will host a set of freestyle events, and the state seems intent on avoiding a repeat of the 1980 Olympic embarrassment, when a snowless early winter threatened to move several events north to Canada. New York has invested hundreds of millions of dollars into its three ski areas and its Olympic facilities over the past decade, and much of that has gone to Gore.But I do not, as regular readers know, focus much – or, really, any – attention on ski competitions of any kind. Bone and I discuss the games a bit toward the end of the interview, but mostly we talk about the mountain. And it is a hell of a mountain. It’s a personal favorite, and one I’ve been trying to lock a podcast conversation around since Storm Launch Day back in 2019.Questions I wish I’d askedMany of you may be left wondering why my extensive past complaints about ORDA largess did not penetrate my line of questioning for this interview. Gore is about to spend nearly $9 million to replace a 12-year-old triple chair with a high-speed quad. There is no other ski area on the continent that is able to do anything remotely similar. How could I spend an hour talking to the person directing this whole operation without broaching this very obvious subject?Because this is not really a Gore problem. It’s not even an ORDA problem. This is a New York State problem. The state legislature is the one directing hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to three ski areas while the majority of New York’s family-owned mountains pray for snow. I am not opposed to government support of winter sports. I am opposed to using tax dollars from independent ski areas that have to operate at a profit in order to subsidize the operations of government-owned ski areas that do not. There are ways to distribute the wealth more evenly, as I’ve outlined before.But this is not Bayse’s fight. He’s the general manager of a public ski area. What is he supposed to do? Send the $9 million back to the legislature and tell them to give it to Holiday Mountain? His job is to help prioritize projects and then make sure they get done. And he’s really good at that job. So that – and not bureaucratic decisions that he has no control over – was where I took this conversation.Why you should ski GoreThe New York glory goes to Whiteface, Olympic skyscraper, its 3,430-foot vertical drop towering over everything in the Northeast, and big parts of the West too, over Aspen and Breck and Beaver Creek and Mammoth and Palisades Tahoe and Snowbird and Snowbasin. The New York attention goes to the Catskills, seated between Gore and The City – New York City – like a drain trap. Almost all of the northbound skiers that don’t know enough to detour to Belleayre or Plattekill stop at Windham and Hunter and for most that’s as far north as they ever bother to go. Whiteface sits adjacent to Lake Placid, one of North America’s great ski towns. Hunter has slopeside lodging and a woo-hoo sensibility that vibes with metro-area hedonism.Gore sits between these twin outposts. It’s less than four hours north of Manhattan, 30 minutes off the interstate on good roads. It’s overlooked anyway. Skiers headed that far north are more likely to end up at Stratton or Mount Snow or Okemo or Killington, with their big-pass affiliations and on-mountain beds and similar-to-Gore vertical drops and trail networks. Anyone who wants to ski Gore has to wake up and drive every day, even if they’re on vacation.All of that adds up to this: the best ski area in New York is often one of its least crowded. And Gore is the best ski area in New York. The glade network alone grants it that distinction. The place is sprawling, quirky, interesting. It skis like a half dozen mini ski areas stuffed into a sampler pack: get small-town vibes at Ski Bowl, cruise off Bear, go Midwest off gentle and forgotten North Quad, feel high alpine on the summit, or just bounce around all day in the glades.When Gore has snow, it’s glorious, a backwoods vibe with a modern lift fleet – other than an antique J-bar, the oldest lift on the mountain is from 1995. But snow is Gore’s biggest drawback. One hundred twenty-five inches per year is OK, but if only we could hack the whole operation out of the earth and chopper it west into one of New York’s two great snowbelts, off Lakes Ontario or Eerie, where Snow Ridge racks up 230 inches of annual snowfall and Peek’N Peak claims 200. ORDA has invested massively in snowmaking – Gore has at least 829 snowguns. But they don’t make snow in the trees, and without that sprawling glade network in play, Gore is a far less interesting place.It can also be hard to navigate. Anyone who doesn’t luck into the Pipeline Traverse connecting North Quad to Burnt Ridge and Ski Bowl (Little Gore), is looking at an atrocious commute from the main lodge to the Burnt Ridge Quad, an irritating pole on skis, infuriating on a snowboard. That’s just one example – Gore, for the uninitiated, can be an exhaustive tangle of such routes, of lifts that don’t quite go where you thought they would, of deceptive distances squished together for the convenience of a pocket-fold trailmap.Still, Gore is everything that is great about New York skiing: affordable, convenient, unpretentious, unassuming. It is, under the right conditions, a top 10 Northeast mountain. It’s a true skier’s mountain, opening early, closing as late as May 1. This one’s not on any of your megapasses. Go there anyway. It’s worth it.Podcast notesBayse and I discussed the new intermediate trail going in on Burnt Ridge this summer. Gore’s website describes the new trail in this way:This 60’ wide intermediate-rated trail with grooming and snowmaking capabilities will enter near the top of the Burnt Ridge Quad and run alongside the Barkeater Glades, ending just uphill of the Roaring Brook Bridge at the bottom of The Pipeline, making your adventure to Little Gore Mountain and the Ski Bowl more direct and easily accessible!Here’s where it will sit on the trailmap:New York Ski Blog’s Harvey Road visited Gore in June and walked the new trail with Bayse:We also discussed the possibility of eventually bringing the gondola back to the top of Gore Mountain, where the ski area’s original gondola landed, as you can see in this 1994 trailmap:That won’t be happening. When Gore strung the new gondy up in 1999, they dropped the terminal onto Bear Mountain, which opened up a whole new pod of skiing:That, as it turned out, was just the start of Gore’s rabid expansion over the next two decades. In 2008, the ski area developed Burnt Ridge:Two years later, Gore connected Burnt Ridge to Little Gore Mountain, which was the lost North Creek Ski Bowl ski area:We also discussed additional trails that could be developed skier’s left of the current Little Gore summit. Here’s what those looked like in a 2008 rendering:If you really want to get into Gore’s potential and long-term plans, there are zillions of conceptual maps in the ski area’s 541-page Unit Management Plan update from 2018:Finally, Bayse and I discussed the M.A.X. Pass, which was the immediate antecedent of the Ikon Pass. Gore was a part of this eclectic coalition, which included all of the mountains below – imagine if all of these had joined the Ikon Pass:Scanning that roster is a bit like playing Fantasy Ski Pass, but it’s also an acknowledgement that there’s nothing preordained about the current Ikon-Indy-Epic-Mountain Collective alignments that we are all so familiar with. That was M.A.X. Pass’ lineup five years ago. Now, those ski areas are split amongst the four big passes, and some of them have opted for complete independence. Gore, sadly for the multi-mountain pass fans among us, is one of them (though it is part of the SKI3 Pass with sister resorts Belleayre and Whiteface). That trio would make a Northeast crown jewel for Indy Pass, and would be a worthy addition for Ikon. If ORDA were worried about cannibalizing SKI3 sales with an Ikon partnership, they could simply combine the three ski areas into a single “destination” and offer five or seven combined days, much as Ikon has long offered at the four Aspen mountains or Killington-Pico.Gore on New York Ski BlogNo ski writer in America has written more about Gore than Harvey Road, who, as mentioned above, is the founder, editor, and soul behind the fabulous New York Ski Blog, which is one of the longest-running and most consistent online regional ski websites in the country.Harv is a good friend of mine, and I’ve contributed a half dozen posts (on Burke, Stowe, Maple Ski Ridge, Willard, Mount Snow, and Killington) to his site over the years. New York Ski Blog has 222 stories tagged with Gore, which date back to 2006. I asked Harvey to choose his four favorite:1)    I Never Made It To The Top – Feb. 18, 2019There are many reasons to like the North Creek Ski Bowl. The parking, the yurt, the people who ski there, the vibe. Another bonus feature is proximity to Burnt Ridge via the Eagle’s Nest traverse.Burnt Ridge has become the part of Gore that I think about when I’m daydreaming at my desk. It’s unique among the eastern areas I have skied. A beautiful chair lift that serves an epic groomer and four mile-long glades. For the most part they are gently pitched, and I often find I am in my zone.2)    Gore Mountain: Love The One You’re With – March 25, 2019NYSkiBlog was originally designed to be a skier’s decision engine. The Weather Center was created to help road warriors — those who have to travel far and plan ahead — make the best possible decisions to get good snow.It’s certainly not a fool-proof tool. Weather data requires persistent monitoring and educated interpretation to pay dividends. And even with all that, things can go wrong.My idea at the beginning of the week was to ski Plattekill in the warm sunshine that was forecast for Saturday, and then move north to ski Gore on Sunday. But as the week wore on, a spring storm crept into the forecast and affected my plan.3)    That Next Big Step – Feb. 19, 2020Over the last few seasons, our daughter has been generally fearless in the trees, and only intimidated by the steepest steeps at Gore. Two years ago, when 46er opened, we skied right up to the headwall, paused, re-considered, and sidestepped back uphill to ski the Hudson Trail.This past Sunday, we were first at the Yurt and first in line for the Hudson Chair. Don was working the lift, and he always gives me a good tip: “46er was groomed overnight.” The lift started to spin early, and we were on our way up the hill at 8:15.I’ve learned, always listen to Don. Without pushing too hard, I hope, I raised the idea of grabbing it while the cord was perfect. Two points for us, we were on a slow fixed-grip lift, with no one ahead of us, so we had some time to talk it out. By the time we arrived at the top of Little Gore, we were going for it.The cord was firm but grippy and she nailed it. On the next ride up, she asked me “Dad, how does that compare to Lies?” I told her “46er is steeper than Lies, but it’s shorter. And Lies won’t be cord, by the time we get to it.”Apparently some kids at school had been talking about Lies, making it out to be the full-on shizzle. She’d gained confidence on 46er and was looking for some bragging rights to go with it. “To the top Dad, to the top!”4)    Gore Mountain: Good Friday – April 18, 2022When Gore is one of NY’s last men standing — and you have a season pass, and a beautiful day off, and you’re a wannabe ski writer — you’re going to ski it and write about it. That’s how it goes. More Gore.This is also the post in which Harvey describes a confrontation with some moron who “didn’t appreciate the attention [NY Ski Blog has] brought to Gore.” This is an idiotic take, as though a hobby blog, and not the millions of dollars in upgrades and marketing invested by the state, were the reason for Gore’s growing reputation and skier visits. This sort of don’t-talk-about-my-mountain homerism is counterproductive, a sort of domestic xenophobia that’s frustrating and disheartening. It’s also bizarre. An Instagram follower recently hit me with a shoosh emoji after I posted a picture of a super-top-secret ski area called Alta, as though a post to my fewer-than 3,000 followers was going to suddenly transform one of America’s most iconic ski areas into a mosh pit. I hate to blow this secret wide open, but these are public businesses, that anyone is allowed to visit. I visit dozens of ski areas every season – one of them is usually Gore. Other than Mountain Creek – my home mountain – I’m a tourist at every single one of them. Translating the energy of those places into content that helps fuel the ski zeitgeist is part of the point of The Storm, and it’s the whole point of New York Ski Blog. Follow along with Harv’s adventures by subscribing to his free email newsletter:Additional New York-focused Storm Skiing PodcastsPlattekill owners Danielle and Laszlo VajtayCatamount owner Jon SchaeferWindham President Chip SeamansWest Mountain owners Sara and Spencer MontgomerySki Areas of New York President Scott BrandiTitus Mountain co-owner Bruce Monette Jr.Hickory shareholders corporation President David CronheimSnow Ridge co-owner and General Manager Nick MirThe Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 71/100 in 2022, and number 317 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

 To support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This podcast hit paid subscribers’ inboxes on June 28. Free subscribers got it on July 1. To receive future pods as soon as they’re live, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription.WhoJonathan M. Davis, General Manager of Perfect North, IndianaRecorded onJune 20, 2022About Perfect NorthClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Perfect FamilyPass affiliations: NoneLocated in: Lawrenceburg, IndianaClosest neighboring ski areas: Mad River, Ohio (2 hours, 18 minutes); Paoli Peaks, Indiana (2 hours, 39 minutes); Snow Trails (3 hours)Base elevation: 400 feetSummit elevation: 800 feetVertical drop: 400 feetSkiable Acres: 100Average annual snowfall: 24 inchesTrail count: 22 (1 double-black, 3 black, 3 blue-black, 10 intermediate, 5 beginner)Lift count: 12 (2 quads, 3 triples, 5 carpets, 2 ropetows - view Lift Blog’s inventory of Perfect North’s lift fleet)About Timberline, West VirginiaWhile this podcast is not explicitly about Timberline, Jonathan had an important role in the ski area’s acquisition in 2019. His enthusiasm for Timberline is clear, the opportunity and the investment are enormous, and this conversation acts as a primer for what I hope will be a full Timberline podcast at some future point.Click here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Perfect FamilyPass affiliations: NoneLocated in: Davis, West VirginiaClosest neighboring ski areas: Canaan Valley (8 minutes); White Grass XC touring/backcountry center (11 minutes); Wisp, Maryland (1 hour, 15 minutes); Snowshoe, West Virginia (1 hour, 50 minutes); Bryce, Virginia (2 hours); Homestead, Virginia (2 hours); Massanutten, Virginia (2 hours, 21 minutes)Base elevation: 3,268 feetSummit elevation: 4,268 feetVertical drop: 1,000 feetSkiable Acres: 100Average annual snowfall: 150 inchesTrail count: 20 (2 double-black, 3 black, 5 intermediate, 10 beginner)Lift count: 3 (1 high-speed six-pack, 1 fixed-grip quad, 1 carpet - view Lift Blog’s inventory of Timberline’s lift fleet)Why I interviewed himThere are two kinds of ski areas in the Midwest. The first are the big ones, out there somewhere in the woods. Where 10,000 years ago a glacier got ornery. Or, farther back in time, little mountains hove up out of the earth. They’re at least 400 feet tall and top out near 1,000. They’re not near anything and they don’t need to be. People will drive to get there. Often they sit in a snowbelt, with glades and bumps and hidden parts. Multiple peaks. A big lodge at the bottom. There are perhaps two dozen of these in the entire region, all of them in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Boyne, Nub’s Nob, Crystal, Caberfae, Bohemia, Powderhorn, Whitecap, Granite Peak, Spirit, Lutsen. This is not a complete list. I’m making a point here.The second kind of Midwest ski area is usually smaller. It claims 200 vertical feet and actually has 27. It has four chairlifts for every run. It has a parking lot that could swallow Lake George. It’s affordable. And it’s close. To something. Metro Detroit has four ski areas. Milwaukee has eight. Minneapolis has six. But pretty much any Lower Midwestern city of any size has at least one ski area in its orbit: Cleveland (Alpine Valley, Boston Mills, Brandywine), Columbus (Snow Trails, Mad River), St. Louis (Hidden Valley), Kansas City (Snow Creek), Des Moines (Seven Oaks), Chicago (Four Lakes, Villa Olivia), Omaha (Mt. Crescent).For Cincinnati, that ski area is Perfect North. It’s actually one of the larger city-adjacent ski areas in the region: 400 vertical feet on 100 acres (accurate numbers, as far as I can tell). Twelve lifts. Twenty-two trails. Indiana has 6.7 million residents and two ski areas. Some winter days, approximately half of them are skiing at Perfect North.I’m just kidding around about the numbers. What I’m trying to say is that urban Midwestern ski areas are terrific businesses. They’re small but handle unimaginable volume in short, intense seasons of 12-hour-plus days. Davis tells me in the podcast that the ski area hires 1,200 seasonal employees for winter. That is an almost incomprehensible number. Killington, the largest ski area in the east, 20 times the size of Perfect North, has around 1,600 wintertime employees.But that’s what it takes to keep the up-and-down moving. Perfect North was a sort of accidental ski area, born when a college student knocked on farmer Clyde Perfect’s door and said, “hey did you know your land is perfect for a ski area?” In almost snowless Indiana, this was quite a wild notion. Not that no one had tried. The state has nine lost ski areas. But Perfect North is one of only two that survived (the other is Vail-owned Paoli Peaks, which survives no thanks to the mothership). I don’t know enough about the ski areas that failed to say why they’re gone, but it’s obvious why Perfect North has succeeded: relentless investment by committed operators. Here’s an excerpt from a case study by SMI snowmakers:[Perfect North] employs 245 snowmaking machines and an infrastructure that pumps about 120 million gallons of water annually, giving the resort a 3-4 foot snowpack throughout the season. The system is so efficient that operators can start as many as 200 snowmakers in about an hour.At its modest start-up in 1980, Perfect North had only rope tows, T-bars and about a dozen snowmakers covering roughly seven acres. But the family-owned operation has expanded each year and now features five chair lifts and six surface lifts serving more than ten times the skiable terrain, as well as one of the largest tubing operations in the entire U.S. …“We knew early on that snowmaking was critical to a great experience on the hills. The snow is the reason people come; everything else is secondary. So we really focused on it right from the beginning, and we’ve enhanced our snowmaking capability every year,” said [Perfect North President Chip] Perfect.All of the snow guns now in use at Perfect North are manufactured by SMI, and every one is permanently mounted on a SnowTower™ (or pole-top unit). Most are the company’s signature PoleCat™ or Super PoleCat™ designs, with either hill air feed or onboard compressors. Unlike some resorts that boast 100% snowmaking on their trails, Perfect North runs enough machines to be able to make snow on virtually the entire skiing and tubing area at the same time.This is not one model of how to make a ski area work in the Lower Midwest – this is the only way to make a ski area work in the Lower Midwest. The region was a bit late to skiing. Perfect North didn’t open until 1980. Snowmaking had to really advance before such a thing as consistent skiing in Indiana was even conceivable. But being possible is not the same thing as being easy. There are only two ski areas in Indiana for a reason: it’s hard. Perfect North has mastered it anyway. And you’ll understand about two minutes into this conversation why this place is special.What we talked aboutA couple kids watching for the lights to flip on across the valley, announcing the opening of the ski season; Perfect North in the ‘80s; a place where jeans and “layered hunting gear” are common; ski area as machine; from bumping chairs to general manager; the pioneer days of 90s tech; moving into the online future without going bust; RFID; the surprising reason why Perfect North switched from metal wicket tickets to the plastic ziptie version; taking over a ski area in the unique historical moment that was spring 2020; staff PTSD from the Covid season; the power of resolving disputes through one-on-one talks; “we lost something in those two years with how we interact with people”; 1,200 people to run a 400-vertical-foot ski area; how Perfect North fully staffed up and offered an 89-hour-per-week schedule as Vail retreated and severely cut hours at its Indiana and Ohio ski areas; Perfect North would have faced “an absolute mutiny” had they pulled the Vail bait-and-switch of cutting operating hours after pass sales ended; how aggressive you have to be with snowmaking in the Lower Midwest; “the people of the Midwest are fiercely loyal”; reaction to Vail buying Peak Resorts; “I want Midwest skiing to succeed broadly”; Cincinnati as a ski town; skiing’s identity crisis; the amazing story behind Perfect North’s founding; the Perfect family’s commitment to annual reinvestment; remembering ski area founder Clyde Perfect, who passed away in 2020; you best keep those web cams active Son; snowmaking and Indiana; the importance of valleys; the importance of a committed owner; potential expansion; where the ski area could add trails within the existing footprint; terrain park culture in the Lower Midwest; the management and evolution of parks at Perfect North; potential chairlift upgrades and a theoretical priority order; where the ski area could use an additional chairlift; the potential for terrain park ropetows; coming updates to Jam Session’s ropetows; Perfect North’s amazing network of carpet lifts; the ski area’s massive tubing operation; why Perfect North purchased Timberline and how the purchase came together; why creditors rejected the first winner’s bid; West Virginia as a ski state; the reception to Timberline’s comeback; “it didn’t take us long to realize that the three lifts on site were unworkable”; how well Perfect North and Timberline work as a ski area network; “Timberline Mountain has got to stand on its own financially”; whether Perfect North could ever purchase more ski areas; “I hate to see ski areas wither up and die”; Perfect North’s diverse season pass suite; “what drives our guest’s visits is their availability”; and whether Timberline or Perfect North could join the Indy Pass.            Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewYou want to hear something funny? I often put out queries on Twitter or via email, asking people to tell me who they would most like to hear from on the podcast. Or sometimes people just write and say something like, “hey love the pod you should interview…” And the interview they’ve most often requested has been some combination of Timberline and Perfect North. I don’t really understand why. I mean, I think it’s an awesome story. I’ve yet to meet a ski area I wasn’t fascinated by, and this Midwest-buys-Mid-Atlantic storyline is especially compelling to me. But this one has, for whatever reason, resonated broadly. I’ve never once had someone ask me to track down the head of Telluride or Mammoth or Heavenly (I’d gladly talk to the leaders of any of the three), but the Perfect North/Timberline request has been hitting my inbox consistently for years.Well, it’s done. I’d still like to do a Timberline-first pod, but the basic story of the acquisition is there, and we spend about 15 minutes on the West Virginia ski area. Still, I was not just listening to the request line. I tracked down Davis for the same reason that I tracked down Snow Trails, Ohio’s Scott Crislip last month: these are the only two ski areas in Indiana or Ohio that functioned normally last season. And they are the only two ski areas in those states that are not owned by Vail.Paoli Peaks was open 28 hours per week, from Thursday through Sunday, with no night skiing on weekends. Perfect North was open 89 hours per week, with night skiing seven days per week. I found this fairly offensive, and WTIU Public TV in Indiana invited me on-air back in March to talk about it:How, exactly, did Vail get owned by two independent operators with a fraction of the institutional resources? That is the question that these two podcasts attempt to answer. Vail clearly misread the market in Ohio and Indiana. They did not make enough snow or hire enough people. They cut night skiing. In the Midwest. That’s like opening a steakhouse and cutting steak off the menu. Sorry, Guys, budget cuts. You can’t find steak at this steakhouse, but we have beef broth soup and canned greenbeans. And by the way, we’re only open for lunch. Like, how did they not know that? It may be the worst series of ski area operating decisions I’ve ever seen.I should probably just let this go. Now that I’ve said my piece via these two interviews, I probably will. I’ve made my point. But seriously Vail needs to look at what Perfect North and Snow Trails did this past season and do exactly that. And if they can’t, then, as Davis says in this interview, “if they don’t want Paoli and Mad River, we’ll take them.”Questions I wish I’d askedPerfect North has a really interesting pass perk for its highest-tiered pass: Perfect Season Pass holders can go direct to lift. That pass is $356. Gold passholders, who can ski up to eight hours per day, must pick up a lift ticket at the window each time they ski. That pass is $291. While the gold pass is not technically unlimited, eight hours per day seems more than sufficient. I’m ready to wrap it up after seven hours at Alta. I can’t imagine that eight hours wouldn’t be enough Indiana skiing. But I don’t think the ski area would bother with the two different passes if the market hadn’t told them there was a need, and I would have liked to have discussed the rationale behind this pass suite a bit more.What I got wrongI said on the podcast that Snow Trails was open “80-some hours per week.” The number was actually 79 hours. I also stated in the introduction that Perfect North was founded by “the Perfect family and a group of investors,” but it was the Perfect family alone.  Why you should ski Perfect NorthWe’ve been through this before, with Snow Trails, Mountain Creek, Paul Bunyan, Wachusett, and many more. If you live in Cincinnati and you are a skier, you have a choice to make: you can be the kind of skier who skis all the time, or you can be the kind of skier who skis five days per year at Whistler. I know dozens of people in New York like this. They ski at Breckenridge, they ski at Park City, they ski at Jackson Hole. But they don’t – they just couldn’t – ski Mountain Creek or Hunter or even Stowe. East Coast skiing is just so icy, they tell me. Well, sometimes. But it’s skiing. And whether you ski six days per year or 50 largely depends upon your approach to your local.If I lived in Cincinnati, I’d have a pass to Perfect North and I’d go there all the time. I would not be there for eight hours at a time. Ten runs is a perfectly good day of skiing at a small ski area. More if conditions are good or I’m having fun. Anything to get outside and make a few turns. Go, ride the lifts, get out. No need to overthink this. Any skiing is better than none at all.Most of Perfect North’s skiers, of course, are teenagers and families. And it’s perfect for both of these groups. But it doesn’t have to be for them alone. Ski areas are for everyone. Go visit.As far as Timberline goes, well, that’s a whole different thing. A thousand feet of vert and 150 inches of average annual snowfall shouldn’t take a lot of convincing for anyone anywhere within striking distance.Podcast NotesPerfect North founder Clyde Perfect passed away in 2020. Here is his obituary.I mentioned that Indiana had several lost ski areas. Here’s an inventory. My 1980 copy of The White Book of Ski Areas lists nine hills in Indiana. Perfect North isn’t one of them (Paoli Peaks, the state’s other extant ski area, is). Here’s a closer look at two of the more interesting ones (you can view more trailmaps on skimap.org):Nashville AlpsHere’s the 2001 trailmap for Nashville Alps, which had a 240-foot vertical drop. The ski area closed around 2002, and the lifts appear to be gone.If anyone knows why Nashville Alps failed, please let me know.Ski StarlightThe White Book pegs this one with an amazing 554 vertical feet, which would make it taller than any ski area in Michigan’s Lower Peninsula. The map shows trails running along little ridgelines separated by valleys, which would have made this a really interesting spot on the rare occasions it snowed enough to ski the trees.Google maps suggests that this trailmap more or less reflects geologic reality. Here’s a YouTube video from a few years back, when the ski area was apparently for sale. The lifts were still intact (though likely unusable):The White Book says that this place had a double-double and two J-bars in 1980. Just 20 minutes from Louisville, this seems like the kind of little Midwestern spot that could boom with the right operators. The cost to bring it online would likely be prohibitive, however. As with most things in U.S. America, it would be the permitting that would likely kill it in the crib.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 70/100 in 2022, and number 316 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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Paid subscribers receive thousands of extra words of content each month, plus all podcasts three days before free subscribers.WhoJoe Hession, CEO of Snow Partners, owners of Mountain Creek, Big Snow American Dream, Snowcloud, and Terrain Based LearningRecorded onJune 15, 2022About Mountain CreekLocated in: Vernon Township, New JerseyClosest neighboring ski areas: National Winter Activity Center, New Jersey (6 minutes); Mount Peter, New York (24 minutes); Campgaw, New Jersey (51 minutes); Big Snow American Dream (50 minutes)Pass affiliations: NoneBase elevation: 440 feetSummit elevation: 1,480 feetVertical drop: 1,040 feetSkiable Acres: 167Average annual snowfall: 65 inchesTrail count: 46Lift count: 9 (1 Cabriolet, 2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog’s inventory of Mountain Creek’s lift fleet)About Big Snow American DreamLocated in: East Rutherford, New JerseyClosest neighboring ski areas: Campgaw, New Jersey (35 minutes); National Winter Activity Center, New Jersey (45 minutes); Mountain Creek, New Jersey (50 minutes); Mount Peter, New York (50 minutes)Pass affiliations: NoneVertical drop: 118 feetSkiable Acres: 4Average annual snowfall: 0 inchesTrail count: 4 (2 green, 1 blue, 1 black)Lift count: 4 (1 quad, 1 poma, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog’s of inventory of Big Snow American Dream’s lift fleet)Why I interviewed himTwenty-five years ago, Vail Resorts was known as “Vail Associates.” The company owned just two mountains: Vail and Beaver Creek, which are essentially right next door to each other in Eagle County, Colorado. The resorts were, as they are today, big, snowy, and fun. But they were not great businesses. Bankruptcy threatened. And the ski media – Skiing, Powder – was mostly dismissive. This was the dawn of the freeskiing era, and the cool kids were running the Circuit of Radness: Snowbird, Squaw, Mammoth, Jackson Hole, Whistler, the Powder Highway. Vail was for suburban dads from Michigan. Beaver Creek was for suburban dads from New York. If you wanted the good stuff, keep moving until you got to Crested Butte or Telluride. Vail was just another big Colorado ski resort, that happened to own another big Colorado ski resort, and that was it.Today, Vail is the largest ski company in history, with (soon to be) 41 resorts scattered across three continents. Its Epic Pass transformed and stabilized the industry. It is impossible to talk about modern lift-served North American skiing without talking about Vail Resorts.There was nothing inevitable about this. Pete Seibert, Vail’s founder, did not enter skiing with some snowy notion of Manifest Destiny. He just wanted to open a great ski resort. It was 18 years from Vail Mountain’s 1962 opening to the opening of Beaver Creek in 1980. It was nearly two more decades until Vail bought Keystone and Breck in 1997. It was 11 more years until the Epic Pass debuted, and a few more before anyone started to pay attention to it.What Snow Partners, led by Joe Hession, is doing right now has echoes of Vail 15 years ago. They are building something. Quietly. Steadily. Like trees growing in a forest. They rise slowly but suddenly they tower over everything.I’m not suggesting that Snow Partners will be the next Vail. That they will buy Revelstoke and Jackson Hole and Alta and launch the Ultimo Pass to compete with Epic and Ikon. What Snow Partners is building is different. Additive. It will likely be the best thing to ever happen to Vail or Alterra. Snow Partners is not digital cameras, here to crush Kodak. They are, rather, skiing’s Ben Franklin, who believed every community in America should have access to books via a lending library. In Snow Partners’ version of the future, every large city in America has access to skiing via an indoor snowdome.This will change everything. Everything. In profound ways that we can only now imagine. The engine of that change will be the tens of millions of potential new skiers that can wander into a Big Snow ski area, learn how to ski, and suddenly train their radar on the mountains. Texas has a population of around 29.5 million people. Florida has about 22 million. Georgia has around 11 million. Those 61.5 million people have zero in-state ski areas between them. They could soon have many. There are countless skiers living in these states now, of course, refugees from the North or people who grew up in ski families. But there are millions more who have never skied or even thought about it, but who would, given the option, at least try it as a novelty. And that novelty may become a hobby, and that hobby may become a lifestyle, and that lifestyle may become an obsession.As anyone reading this knows, there’s a pretty direct line between those first turns and the neverending lines rolling on repeat in your snow-obsessed brain. But you have to link those first couple turns. That’s hard. Most people never get there. And that’s where Big Snow, with its beginner zone loaded with instructors and sculpted terrain features – a system known as Terrain Based Learning – is so interesting. It not only gives people access to snow. It gives people a way to learn to love it, absent the broiling frustration of ropetows and ice and $500 private instructors. It’s a place that creates skiers.This – Big Snow, along with an industry-wide reorientation toward technology – is Hession’s vision. And it is impossible not to believe in his vision. Hession announces in this podcast that the company has secured funding to build multiple Big Snow ski areas within the foreseeable future. The combination of beginner-oriented slopes and simple, affordable packages has proven attractive even in New Jersey, where skiers have access to dozens of outdoor ski areas within a few hours’ drive. It makes money, and the business model is easily repeatable.Mountain Creek, where Hession began working as a parking lot attendant in his teens, is, he says, a passion project. The company is not buying anymore outdoor ski areas. But when Big Snows start minting new skiers by the thousands, and perhaps the millions, they may end up driving the most profound change to outdoor ski areas in decades.What we talked aboutThe nascent uphill scene at Mountain Creek; “most people don’t realize that this is what New Jersey looks like”; celebrating Big Snow’s re-opening; the three things everyone gets wrong about Big Snow; the night of the fire that closed the facility for seven months; how the fire started and what it damaged; three insurance companies walk into a bar…; why six weeks of work closed the facility for more than half a year; staying positive and mission-focused through multiple shutdowns at a historically troubled facility; New Jersey’s enormous diversity; skiing in Central Park?; “we’re creating a ski town culture in the Meadowlands in New Jersey”; everyone loves Big Snow; the story behind creating Big Snow’s beginner-focused business model; why most people don’t have fun skiing and snowboarding; the four kinds of fun; what makes skiing and snowboarding a lifestyle; what Hession got really wrong about lessons; the “haphazard” development of most ski areas; more Big Snows incoming; why Big Snow is a great business from a financial and expense point of view; looking to Top Golf for inspiration on scale and replicability; where we could see the next Big Snow; how many indoor ski domes could the United States handle?; what differentiates Big Snow from Alpine-X; whether future Big Snows will be standalone facilities or attached to larger malls; is American Dream Mall too big to fail?; finding salvation from school struggles as a parking lot attendant at Vernon Valley Great Gorge; Action Park; two future ski industry leaders working the rental shop; Intrawest kicks down the door and rearranges the world overnight; a “complicated” relationship with Mountain Creek; Intrawest’s rapid decline and the fate of Mountain Creek; leaving your dream job; ownership under Crystal Springs; how a three-week vacation will change your life; transforming Terrain Based Learning from a novelty to an empire; “I’ve been fascinated with how you go from working for a company to owning a company”; the far-flung but tightly bound ski industry and how Hession ended up running Big Snow; how much the Big Snow lease costs in a month; an Austin Powers moment; this is a technology company; an anti-kiosk position; the daily capacity of Mountain Creek; buying Mountain Creek; the art of operating a ski area; the biggest mistake most Mountain Creek operators have made; the bargain season pass as business cornerstone; “we were days away from Vail Resorts owning Mountain Creek today”; bankruptcy, Covid, and taking control of Mountain Creek and Big Snow in spite of it all; how much money Mountain Creek brings in in a year; “a lot of people don’t understand how hard it is to run a ski resort”; a monster chairlift project on the Vernon side of Mountain Creek; “a complicated relationship” with the oddest lift in the East ( the cabriolet) and what to do about it; “no one wants to take their skis on and off for a 1,000 feet of vertical”; which lift from Mountain Creek’s ancient past could make a comeback; bringing back the old Granite View and Route 80 trails; why expansion beyond the historic trail network is unlikely anytime soon; Creek’s huge natural snowmaking advantage; why no one at Mountain Creek “gives high-fives before the close of the season”; Hession is “absolutely” committed to stretching Creek’s season as long as possible; the biggest job of a ski resort in the summertime; the man who has blown snow at Mountain Creek for 52 years; whether Snow Operating would ever buy more outdoor ski resorts; “variation is evil”; the large ski resort that Hession tried to buy; “I don’t think anyone can run a massive network of resorts well”; an Applebee’s comparison; whether Mountain Creek or Big Snow could ever join a multi-mountain ski pass; why the M.A.X. Pass was a disaster for Mountain Creek; why Creek promotes the Epic and Ikon Passes on its social channels; changing your narrative; not a b******t mission statement; why the next decade in the ski industry may be the wildest yet; and the Joe P. Hession Foundation.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewI’ll admit that it can be awfully hard to appreciate the potential of Big Snow from the point of view of the casual observer. For anyone living in the New York metro area, the place spent a decade and a half as a vacant laughingstock, a symbol of excess and arrogance, an absurdly expensive novelty that was built, it seemed, just to be torn down. As I wrote last year:On Sept. 29, 2004, a coalition of developers broke ground on a project then known as Meadowlands Xanadu. Built atop a New Jersey swamp and hard by Interstate 95, the garish collection of boxes and ramps with their Romper Room palette could be seen from the upper floors of Manhattan skyscrapers, marooned in their vast asphalt parking lot, an entertainment complex with no one to entertain.It sat empty for years. Crushed, in turn, by incompetence, cost overruns, the Great Recession, lawsuits, and funding issues, the building that would host America’s first indoor ski slope melted into an eternal limbo of ridicule and scorn.I didn’t think it would ever open, and I didn’t understand the point if it did. This is the Northeast – we have no shortage of skiing. At four acres on 160-foot vertical drop, this would instantly become the smallest ski area in nine states. Wow. What’s the next item in your master development plan: an indoor beach in Hawaii?But eventually Big Snow did open: 5,545 days after the center’s groundbreaking. And it was not what I thought it would be. As I wrote the month after it opened:For its potential to pull huge numbers of never-evers into the addictive and thrilling gravitational pull of Planet Ski, Big Snow may end up being the most important ski area on the continent. It is cheap. It is always open. It sits hard against the fourth busiest interstate in the country and is embedded into a metro population of 20 million that has outsized influence on national and global trends. Over the coming decades, this ugly oversized refrigerator may introduce millions of people to the sport.I wrote that on Jan. 13, 2020, two months before Covid would shutter the facility for 177 days. It had only been open 94 days when that happened. Then, 388 days after re-opening on Sept. 1, 2020, fire struck. It caused millions in damage and another 244-day closure. After endless negotiations with insurance companies, Big Snow American Dream finally re-opened last month.So now what? Will this place finally stabilize? What about the disastrous financial state of the mall around it, which has, according to The Wall Street Journal, missed payments on its municipal bonds? Will we see more Big Snows? Will Snow Operating bid on Jay Peak? Will we ever get a real chairlift on Vernon at Mountain Creek? With Big Snow rebooted and live (take three), it was time to focus on the future of Snow Operating. And oh man, buckle up.Questions I wish I’d askedI could have stopped Joe at any time and asked a hundred follow-up questions on any of the dozens of points he made. But there would have been no point in that. He knew what I wanted to discuss, and the narrative is compelling enough on its own, without my input.Why you should ski Mountain Creek and Big SnowBig SnowIf you’re approaching Big Snow from the point of view of a seasoned skier, I want to stop you right there: this is not indoor Aspen. And it’s not pretending to be. Big Snow is skiing’s version of Six Flags. It’s an amusement park. All are welcome, all can participate. It’s affordable. It’s orderly. It’s easy. And it has the potential to become the greatest generator of new skiers since the invention of snow.And that will especially be true if this thing scales in the way that Hession believes it will. Imagine this: you live in Houston. No one in your family skis and so you’ve never thought about skiing. You’ve never even seen snow. You can’t imagine why anyone would ever want to. It looks cold, uncomfortable, exotic as moonrocks, and about as accessible. You’re not a skier and you probably never will be.But, what if Big Snow sprouts out of the ground like a snowy rollercoaster? It’s close. It’s cheap. It could be fun. You and your buddies decide to check it out. Or you take someone there on a date. Or you take your kids there as a distraction. Your lift ticket is well under $100 and includes skis and boots and poles and bindings and a jacket and snowpants (but not, for some reason, gloves), and access to instructors in the Terrain Based Learning area, a series of humps and squiggly snow features that move rookies with the ground beneath them. You enter as a novice and you leave as a skier. You go back. Five or six more times. Then you’re Googling “best skiing USA” and buying an Epic Pass and booking flights for Denver.And if that’s not you, how about this scenario that I face all the time: nonskiers tell me they want to try skiing. Can I take them? Given my background, this would not seem like an irrational request. But I’m not sure where to start. With lift tickets, rentals, and lessons, they’re looking at $150 to $200, plus a long car ride in either direction, just to try something that is cold and frustrating and unpredictable. I’m sure as hell not teaching them. My imagination proves unequal to the request. We don’t go skiing.Big Snow changes that calculus. Solves it. Instantly. Even, as Joe suggests in our interview, in places where you wouldn’t expect it. Denver or Salt Lake City or Minneapolis or Boston. Places that already have plenty of skiing nearby. Why? Well, if you’re in Denver, a snowdome means you don’t have to deal with I-70 or $199 lift tickets or figuring out which of the 100 chairlifts in Summit County would best suite your first ski adventure. You just go to the snowdome.The potential multiplying effect on new skiers is even more substantial when you consider the fact that these things never close. Hession points out that, after decades of refinement and tweaking, Mountain Creek is now finally able to consistently offer 100-day seasons. And given the local weather patterns, that’s actually amazing. But Big Snow – in New Jersey or elsewhere – will be open 365 days per year. That’s three and a half seasons of Mountain Creek, every single year. Multiply that by 10 or 20 or 30 Big Snows, and suddenly the U.S. has far more skiers than anyone ever could have imagined.Mountain CreekThere exists in the Northeast a coterie of unimaginative blockheads who seem to measure their self-worth mostly by the mountains that they dislike. Hunter is a big target. So is Mount Snow. But perhaps no one takes more ridicule, however, than Mountain Creek, that swarming Jersey bump with the shaky financial history and almost total lack of natural snow. Everyone remembers Vernon Valley Great Gorge (as Mountain Creek was once known), and its adjacent summertime operation, the raucous and profoundly dysfunctional Action Park. Or they remember Intrawest leaving Creek at the altar. Or that one time they arrived at Creek at noon on Dec. 29 and couldn’t find a place to park and spent half the afternoon waiting in line to buy a bowl of tomato soup. Or whatever. Now, based on those long-ago notions, they toss insults about Creek in between their Facebook posts from the Jackson Hole tram line or downing vodka shots with their crew, who are called the Drinksmore Boyz or Powder Dogzz or the Legalizerz or some orther poorly spelled compound absurdity anchored in a profound misunderstanding of how impressed society is in general with the antics of men in their 20s.  Whatever. I am an unapologetic Mountain Creek fan. I’ve written why many times, but here’s a summary:First, it is close. From my Brooklyn apartment, I can be booting up in an hour and 15 minutes on a weekend morning. It is a bargain. My no-blackout pass for the 2019-20 season was $230. It is deceptively large, stretching two miles from Vernon to Bear Peaks along New Jersey state highway 94. Its just over thousand-foot vertical drop means the runs feel substantial. It has night skiing, making it possible to start my day at my Midtown Manhattan desk job and finish it hooking forty-mile-an-hour turns down a frozen mountainside. The place is quite beautiful. Really. A panorama of rolling hills and farmland stretches northwest off the summit. The snowmaking system is excellent. They opened on November 16 this year and closed on April 7 last season, a by-any-measure horrible winter with too many thaws and wave after wave of base-destroying rain. And, if you know the time and place to go, Mountain Creek can be a hell of a lot of fun, thanks to the grown-up chutes-and-ladders terrain of South Peak, an endless tiered sequence of launchpads, rollers and rails (OK, I don’t ski rails), that will send you caroming down the mountain like an amped-up teenager (I am more than twice as old as any teenager).I don’t have a whole lot to add to that. It’s my home mountain. After spending my first seven ski seasons tooling around Midwest bumps, the glory of having a thousand-footer that near to me will never fade. The place isn’t perfect, of course, and no one is trying to tell that story, including me, as you can see in the full write-up below, but when I only have two or three hours to ski, Creek is an amazing gift that I will never take for granted:Podcast notesHere are a few articles laying out bits of Hession’s history with Mountain Creek:New VP has worked at Creek since his teens – Advertiser-News South, Feb. 22, 2012Mountain Creek Enters Ski Season With New Majority Owner Snow Operating – Northjersey.com, Nov. 23, 2018I’ve written quite a bit about Big Snow and Mountain Creek over the years. Here are a couple of the feature stories:The Curse of Big Snow – Sept. 30, 2021The Most Important Ski Area in America – Jan. 13, 2020This is the fourth podcast I’ve hosted that was at least in part focused on Mountain Creek:Big Snow and Mountain Creek Vice President of Marketing & Sales Hugh Reynolds – March 3, 2020Hermitage Club General Manager Bill Benneyan, who was also a former president, COO, and general manager of Mountain Creek – Dec. 4, 2020Crystal Mountain, Washington President and CEO Frank DeBerry, who was also a former president, COO, and general manager of Mountain Creek – Oct. 22, 2021Here are podcasts I’ve recorded with other industry folks that Hession mentions during our interview:Vail Resorts Rocky Mountain Region Chief Operating Officer and Mountain Division Executive Vice President Bill Rock – June 14, 2022Mountain High and Dodge Ridge President and CEO Karl Kapuscinski - June 10, 2022Alpine-X CEO John Emery – Aug. 4, 2021Fairbank Group Chairman Brian Fairbank – Oct. 16, 2020Killington and Pico President and General Manager Mike Solimano – Oct. 13, 2019Here’s the trailer for HBO’s Class Action Park, the 2020 documentary profiling the old water park on the Mountain Creek (then Vernon Valley-Great Gorge) grounds:Hession mentioned a retired chairlift and retired trails that he’d like to bring back to Mountain Creek:What Hession referred to as “the Galactic Chair” is Lift 9 on the trailmap below, which is from 1989. This would load at the junction of present-day Upper Horizon and Red Fox, and terminate on the landing where the Sojourn Double and Granite Peak Quad currently come together (see current trailmap above). This would give novice skiers a route to lap gentle Osprey and Red Fox, rather than forcing them all onto Lower Horizon all the way back to the Cabriolet. I don’t need to tell any regular Creek skiers how significant this could be in taking pressure off the lower mountain at Vernon/North. Lower Horizon is fairly steep and narrow for a green run, and this could be a compelling alternative, especially if these skiers then had the option of downloading the Cabriolet.Hession also talked about bringing back a pair of intermediate runs. One is Granite View, which is trails 34 (Cop Out), 35 (Fritz’s Folly) and 33 (Rim Run) on Granite Peak below. The trail closed around 2005 or ’06, and bringing it back would restore a welcome alternative for lapping Granite Peak.The second trail that Hession referenced was Route 80 (trail 24 on the Vernon side, running beneath lift 8), which cuts through what is now condos and has been closed for decades. I didn’t even realize it was still there. Talks with the condo association have yielded progress, Hession tells me, and we could see the trail return, providing another connection between Granite and Vernon.Creek skiers are also still obsessed with Pipeline, the double-black visible looker’s right of the Granite lift on this 2015 trailmap:I did not ask Hession about this run because I’d asked Hugh Reynolds about it on the podcast two years ago, and he made it clear that Pipeline was retired and would be as long as he and Hession ran the place.Here are links to a few more items we mentioned in the podcast:The 2019 Vermont Digger article that lists Snow Operating as an interested party in the Jay Peak sale.We talked a bit about the M.A.X. Pass, a short-lived multi-mountain pass that immediately preceded (and was dissolved by), the Ikon Pass. Here’s a list of partner resorts on that pass. Skiers received five days at each, and could add the pass onto a season pass at any partner ski area. This was missing heavies like Jackson Hole, Aspen, and Taos, but it did include some ballers like Big Sky and Killington. Resorts of the Canadian Rockies, which includes Fernie and Kicking Horse and is now aligned with the Epic Pass, was a member, as were a few ski areas that have since eschewed any megapass membership: Whiteface, Gore, Belleayre, Wachusett, Alyeska, Mountain High, Lee Canyon, and Whitewater. Odd as that seems, I’m sure we’ll look back at some of today’s megapass coalitions with shock and longing.This podcast hit paid subscribers’ inboxes on June 19. Free subscribers got it on June 22. To receive future pods as soon as they’re live, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 67/100 in 2022, and number 313 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane). You can also email skiing@substack.com. 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To support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Paid subscribers receive thousands of extra words of content each month, plus all podcasts three days before free subscribers.WhoKarl Kapuscinski, President and CEO of Mountain High and Dodge Ridge, CaliforniaRecorded onJune 6, 2022About Mountain HighClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Invision Capital and Karl KapuscinskiLocated in: Wrightwood, CaliforniaClosest neighboring ski areas: Mt. Waterman (45 minutes), Mt. Baldy (1 hour, 15 minutes – they’re only 8.4 miles apart as the crow flies, but 57.4 miles apart via road!), Snow Valley (1 hour, 25 minutes), Big Bear/Snow Summit (1 hour 40 minutes)Base elevation | summit elevation | vertical drop:West Resort: 7,000 feet | 8,000 feet | 1,000 feetEast Resort: 6,600 feet | 8,200 feet | 1,600 feetNorth Resort: 7,200 feet | 7,800 feet | 600 feetSkiable Acres: 290Average annual snowfall: 117 inchesNight skiing: North onlyTrail count: 60 (35% advanced, 40% intermediate, 25% beginner)West Resort: 34 (1 expert, 16 advanced, 12 intermediate, 5 beginner)East Resort: 16 trails (1 expert, 4 advanced, 7 intermediate, 4 beginner)North Resort: 10 trails (6 intermediate, 4 beginner)Lift count: 14 (2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 3 triples, 4 doubles, 3 carpets - view Lift Blog’s inventory of Mountain High’s lift fleet)West Resort: 1 high-speed quad, 3 triples, 2 doubles, 2 carpetsEast Resort: 1 high-speed quad, 1 quad, 2 doubles, 1 carpetNorth Resort: 1 quadAbout Dodge RidgeClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Invision Capital and Karl KapuscinskiLocated in: Pinecrest, CaliforniaClosest neighboring ski areas: Bear Valley (2 hours, 6 minutes), June Mountain (2 hours, 24 minutes), Mammoth Mountain (2 hours, 37 minutes), Badger Pass (2 hours, 45 minutes), Kirkwood (2 hours 58 minutes)Base elevation: 6,600 feetSummit elevation: 8,200 feetVertical drop: 1,600 feetSkiable Acres: 862Average annual snowfall: 300 to 500 inchesNight skiing: NoTrail count: 67 (40% advanced, 40% intermediate, 20% beginner)Lift count: 12 (1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 5 doubles [2 of these doubles - lifts 1 and 2 below, are making way for one triple chair for the 2022-23 ski season], 1 T-bar, 1 ropetow, 2 conveyors - view Lift Blog’s of inventory Dodge Ridge’s lift fleet)Why I interviewed himIn the Midwest of my youth, the calculus was simple: north, cold; south, warm. The only weather quirk was lake-effect snow, tumbling off Michigan and Superior in vast snowbelts west and north, and across that mysterious realm known as the UP. Altitude wasn’t a factor because there was no altitude. Iowa, Nebraska, the Dakotas get rounded up by the chortling masses reaching for a flatland target to ridicule, but they overlook Michigan by ignorance, or, if they’re Michiganders, denial and self-preservation. Midland County, where I grew up, is the flattest place I have ever seen, a forever plain that disguises itself in treed horizons.  It was California that alerted me to the notion that altitude could override latitude. It could snow in the south. You just had to get to the sky. The mountains went there. Humans have so overrun modern SoCal that it is easy to forget what an amazing natural monster it is: foreversummer – or at least foreverspring – on the coast. From the beach with bare feet in the sand you can see the mountains*, snow-capped and forbidding, impossible and amazing, thrusting Tolkien-ish over pulsing Los Angeles. Beyond that, deserts vast and inhospitable, stretching hundreds of miles toward the rest of America. Cross that wasteland to understand why California so often feels like a nation of its own – geologically, it may as well be.But what we care about here are those mountains. There is no reason that LA, America’s second-largest city, must have skiing. But it does. Big Bear and Snow Summit, Baldy and Waterman, Snow Valley and Mountain High. From the ocean, the land lurches skyward with astonishing speed. Mt. Waterman, 40 straightline miles from the coast, sits at 7,000 feet. Mt. Baldy, base elevation 6,500, is 52 miles. Snow Valley, 6,800 feet, 67 miles. Snow Summit, 6,965 feet, 74 miles. Big Bear, 73 miles, 7,104 feet. And Mountain High, seated between 6,600 and 7,200 feet, depending upon which parking lot you pull into on any given day, standing 52-ish miles from the ocean.And it snows. Not what-the-hell amounts. This isn’t Tahoe. But enough that, 98 years ago, someone said “well by gum we ought to be snowskiing on these here hills” (in my head, everyone in the past either talks like Yosemite Sam or Winston Churchill), and set up a snowskiing operation at Mountain High. The ski areas of Southern California are not, like the Poconos or the mountains of the Southeast, the products of technology, of machines providing snow where nature provided hills and cold. Mountain High is the fourth-oldest ski area in the country, opened in 1924. Snow Valley opened in 1937. Waterman in ‘42. Big Bear in ‘46. Baldy and Snow Summit in ‘52. From a technology point of view, 1924 may as well have been a different planet. Electricity was this newfangled thing. Forget about snowmaking, or even chairlifts. I’m almost positive dudes must have been up there in top hats and bowties. And indeed here’s a photo of a fellow rocking a kerchief while smoking his pipe:I’ve been processing this for decades, and it still amazes me: there is skiing in Southern California. Of the many geological and geographic wonders packed into our sprawling continent, the mountains-looming-over-the-seaside-city phenomenon remains one of the most stunning in its asymmetric, improbable glory.And here, in the clouds, dwells Mountain High. Once, this complex was three competing ski areas, fighting it out for families scaling the mountains in rear-wheel drive Buicks and skiing in peacoats. Everything is different now. Those three ski areas – Blue Ridge (West), Holiday Hill (East), and Table Mountain ne Sunlight (North) – are still three separate ski areas, but they operate as one. The cars are better, the gear is better. Vapers and backpack speakers rule the day (Though were I to spy a chap swiveling downslope with poles tucked underarm while puffing on a pipe, I daresay I would invite the old swell to a game of backgammon and a bottle of my finest mead [and there’s the Churchill]). Somewhere along the way, Mountain High installed chairlifts, and then, snowmaking. But despite all this change, a century on, there is still skiing in Southern California. And what a marvelous fact that is.*“on a clear day,” one must always addWhat we talked aboutThe 2021-22 ski season at Mountain High and Dodge Ridge; a record broken at Dodge Ridge; growing up at Ascutney, Vermont; ascending the ranks to the top of Mountain High; Ascutney’s disadvantages compared to the rest of Vermont; how three once-separate ski areas united to form the modern Mountain High; the novel big-business prospects of “snow play” zones at the base of high-altitude urban-adjacent ski areas; why snow play is “drought-resistant”; Mountain High’s snowmaking source, limitations, technology and potential; the incredible efficiency of modern snowmaking; undeveloped land within Mountain High’s permit area and whether we could see expansion anytime soon; the possibility of connecting Mountain High East and West, and whether that would be done through lifts or skiing; the mountain-to-mountain connection we’re most likely to see; humoring me on the could-we-connect-North-to-East-and-West-with-a-gondola question; the most likely next lift upgrade at Mountain High and what it would take to make it happen; whether we could ever see Mountain High North expand lifts back down into the bowl where trails ran at the old Sunrise ski area; the cultural importance of night skiing and why it’s unlikely to ever expand beyond its current footprint; why Kapuscinski purchased Dodge Ridge last year; how Dodge Ridge is “very culturally different” from Mountain High; the amazing percentage of Dodge Ridge skiers that also have an Epic or Ikon pass; a long-term vision for Dodge Ridge; replacing chair 1 and 2 with a single lift this summer, and how the new alignment will enhance the experience for beginners; how much money the ski area is saving by putting in a new lift rather than a used one; possible alignments for high-speed lifts at Dodge Ridge; what a high-speed lift will run you these days; thoughts on Lift 8; the big expansion opportunities at Dodge Ridge and what sort of terrain skiers would find there; the differences between running a ski area that relies heavily on snowmaking and one that doesn’t; Dodge Ridge’s nascent snowmaking system; whether the ski area could ever get night skiing; reciprocity between Dodge Ridge and Mountain High season passes; the Saturday problem; the number of season passes each mountain sells; an estimate of Ikon Pass sales in Southern California; forming the Powder Alliance; and whether the ski areas are considering joining the Indy Pass.   Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewKapuscinski has been the king of Mountain High for decades, taking the CEO job in the mid-90s and eventually buying out his partners to take full control of the resort. He gradually grew the place, and in 2004 purchased nearby Sunrise, now Mountain High North, in what was essentially – as he tells me in the interview – an estate sale.That may have been practice for what came last summer, when Kapuscinski purchased big and snowy Dodge Ridge from Frank and Sally Helm, who had run the joint for 45 years.“I’d had my eye on Dodge Ridge for quite some time,” Kapuscinski tells me in the interview. “It was an area that I knew probably wouldn’t draw a ton of interest from the bigger ski companies. There’s not a lot of those areas that are well-positioned, where they still have a fair amount of upside, but aren’t going to get gobbled up by the bigger ski companies.”Dodge Ridge is one of a series of larger-than-you’d-think ski areas – Bear Valley and China Peak are the others – that hangs off the west side of the Sierras, in an awkward limbo that’s invisible to Epic- and Ikon-wielding skiers racing off to Mammoth and Tahoe. It’s a bit of a time machine, a fixed-grip redoubt that lacks material amounts of snowmaking and is seated, in a very un-California way, far from a large city or interstate. But it has terrain, room to expand, and 300-plus inches of snow per season. That’s plenty to work with.With a full season of operations behind him, I figured it was a good time to check in with Kapuscinski to see where Dodge Ridge was sitting and where he planned to take it, and how the ski area may work with Mountain High – six hours away – to form a little in-state ski network. He has plenty of ideas, particularly when it comes to blowing out the lift fleet. Dodge Ridge skiers tired of the 10-minute ride up Lift 7 are going to like where Kapuscinski’s head is at with an upgrade. Things are already starting to happen: this summer, Chairs 1 and 2 are making way for a used-but-rebuilt replacement, and the resort has, for the first time, the whispers of a snowmaking system.With skier visits up across the country and multi-mountain passes opening the state’s resorts to a new generation of skiers, this is an exciting time for California skiing. Kapuscinski is, and will continue for some time to be, an important part of the whole scene.Questions I wish I’d askedGiven that Kapuscinski ran Stevens Pass for many years, I ought to have asked him about Vail’s struggles up in Washington this past season. There was enough, however, to talk about with his two ski areas, and that seemed like the better place to focus. I also neglected to ask which runs, in particular, Kapuscinski had in mind for Dodge Ridge trail improvements when he mentioned that as a priority.What I got wrongThis isn’t really something I got wrong so much as something I didn’t explain properly – when I mentioned Loon’s base-to-base railroad connection, I commented that it “would never get environmental approval” in California. The reason why is that this is an old-fashioned steam train with an exhaust pipe that would embarrass the Onceler:I’m sure it’s grandfathered in in New Hampshire as some sort of tourist novelty, but any base-to-base transit between Mountain High East and West would have to, um, not run on wood. Not that they would propose it, but that explains my remark in the podcast.Why you should ski Mountain High and Dodge RidgeThere was a moment, before I turned against it, when I was in thrall to U.S. America’s car-first notion of civilization-building. Dropping out of the high desert after a cross-country roadtrip my buddy Ron and I found Los Angeles and its spectacular network of freeways. For days we explored, Midwest teenagers awestruck and eager, zippering through staggered herds of Hondas and BMWs in a beat-up GMC pickup with a topper and a brand-new transmission we’d acquired after a mid-night breakdown in Victorville*. What was this magical realm, sandwiched between sparkling ocean and spectacular mountains, with its Beach Brah vibe and its bristling subtext of hustle and ambition? City-strong, nature-adjacent, nearly rainless with moderate coastal temps, it struck me as a sort of American Utopia, everything great about the nation organized into a self-contained realm.It was the skiing, as mentioned above, that most fascinated me. Access to winter without the doldrums of winter, the ice and the wind, the endless months in jackets and boots, the extra 20 minutes in the morning to warm and de-ice the car and clear it of snow. While my infatuation with Southern California freeway culture would not last the week – shattered in a four-hour dead stop southbound on the 5 while the authorities tended to an overturned and fire-blackened vehicle – my belief in the awesomeness of its top-of-the-world skiing never abated. Most of America’s warm-weather cities – Miami, Houston, Dallas – are considerable journeys from easy turns. Not Los Angeles. There are a half dozen choices, right there. Vertical drops up to 2,000 feet. Glades aplenty and skiing into May when the snow comes. Parks, nights, whatever you want. I’m not saying it’s Mammoth. But I’m saying that it’s right goddamn there, and that’s pretty incredible.I never did move to Los Angeles, or anywhere in California. But if I had, I imagine I’d treat that halo of resilient little SoCal ski areas the same way I treat Mountain Creek now – as my local to notch turns between my runs farther north. The season passes are not expensive – Snow Valley’s is just $329 and grants you the option of a discounted Indy Pass add-on. Baldy and Mountain High run $499. Big Bear and Snow Summit are, of course, on the Ikon Pass, and I suppose that’s become the default for so many Southern California residents as a result. But Mountain High remains compelling – North is a beginner’s paradise, completely free of Radbrahs. West is a parks and night-skiing haven. East is the more traditional trails-and-glades option. I guess many people in Southern California simply choose none-of-the-above and wait out winter between trips to Tahoe and Salt Lake. Which, OK. But, I don’t know man, if there’s turns to be had, I’m taking them.Dodge Ridge is a whole different thing. How, exactly, does a mountain sandwiched between Tahoe and Mammoth stand out? Well, by not being Tahoe or Mammoth. The terrain gets plenty of snow. The mountain is big enough. It’s a good place to hide out, especially from high-speed lift snobs with the patience of a fruit fly, who act as though a 10-minute lift ride were the equivalent of waterboarding.Kapuscinski seems committed to changing that and upgrading the rusty lift fleet, but the mountain will always be a smaller alternative to California’s ski resort royalty. He told me in the interview that an amazing percentage of Dodge Ridge passholders also have an Epic or Ikon Pass. For them, Dodge Ridge is where they go when they can’t – or don’t want to – go to the chest-beaters. It is, as Kapuscinski says, “a multi-generational mountain.” Meaning, for a lot of people, it’s home.*To this day (this was 1996), my buddy is convinced that it was my insistence to reroute off I-70 and up US 6 in Colorado that strained the transmission to its breaking point later in the journey. He’s probably right, but I really, you know, NEEDED, to drive past Arapahoe Basin.More Mountain HighIn our interview, Kapuscinski mentioned mothballed plans for a gondola to connect the resort to lower-altitude terrain, which would have eliminated the need for “mountain driving.” I couldn’t find any of these old plans – if you have any materials on this, please send them over.I had a lot of fun poking around in the archives for trailmaps to Mountain High’s predecessor resorts. Here are a few:Table Mountain/Sunlight (now Mountain High North)Poma #1 in this 1970 trailmap of Table Mountain runs in the approximate line of the modern-day Sunlight quad at Mountain High North. Lift service is now restricted to the top portion of the mountain, and Poma #3 on this map stretches down into a bowl that is just a wide-open snowfield on the current trailmap. Holiday Hill (now Mountain High East)It’s hard to make out the modern hill in this map from 1976.In this version, it’s easier to recognize the basic footprint of modern-day Mountain High East. I’m not entirely confident on the date here, as skimap.org suggests this is from 1980, and some sources indicate that the resort merged with its neighbor in 1979.Mountain High WestI couldn’t find any trailmaps of Blue Ridge, as West was originally known. But this 1978 map of the ski area is pretty cool. You can see the outline of modern Mountain High West here: Chairlift #2 here runs along the approximate line of modern-day Lift 6, Exhibition. The resort long ago abandoned the Wild West-themed trailnames, but, for context, “Calamity Jane” is “Calamity” at the modern ski area.This podcast hit paid subscribers’ inboxes on June 10. Free subscribers got it on June 13. To receive future pods as soon as they’re live, consider an upgrade.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 63/100 in 2022, and number 309 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

To support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Paid subscribers receive thousands of extra words of content each month, plus all podcasts three days before free subscribers.WhoScott Crislip, General Manager of Snow Trails, OhioRecorded onMay 31, 2022About Snow TrailsClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Carto familyLocated in: Mansfield, OhioClosest neighboring ski areas: Mad River Mountain (1.5 hours), Boston Mills-Brandywine (1 hour)Base elevation: 1,174 feetSummit elevation: 1,475 feetVertical drop: 301 feetSkiable Acres: 200Night skiing: Yes, 100% of terrainAverage annual snowfall: 30 to 50 inchesTrail count: 17 (20% black, 60% intermediate, 20% beginner)Lift count: 7 (4 triples, 2 doubles, 1 carpet - view Lift Blog’s inventory of Snow Trail’s lift fleet)Why I interviewed himStare at it for a while, and the American ski map teases some captivating storylines. How is it that there are so many ski areas in Southern California? Or New Mexico? Or how about that map dot above Tucson, or, for God’s sake, Ala-freaking-bama? Are those real? Why are there so many ski areas in practically snowless eastern Pennsylvania, and so few (relatively speaking) in snow-choked and mountainous Washington and Oregon?But one of the most curious sectors of U.S. skiing is the lower Midwest. Ohio hosts five public ski areas; Indiana has two; Illinois, four; Iowa, three; Missouri, two. That’s just 16 ski areas across five states. The upper Midwest, by contrast, hosts 90 ski areas across three states: 40 in Michigan, 31 in Wisconsin, 19 in Minnesota. So that 16 may seem low, but the lower Midwest’s ski area count is actually quite impressive if we look at the macro conditions. Take Ohio: why – how – does this windblown flatland host five public ski areas (a sixth, Big Creek, operates as a private club near Cleveland). Eastern Ohio – the western borderlands of Appalachia – is actually quite hilly. But there aren’t any ski areas there. Instead, Ohio ski life is clustered around or between the state’s many large cities – Dayton, Columbus, Cleveland.Most of America’s ski areas, if you pick them apart, exist because of a favorable combination of at least a couple of the following factors: elevation, population, aspect, accessibility, snowfall – often lake effect. North-facing Snow Trails, seated high (for Ohio) in the Possum Run Valley, right off Interstate 71 between Columbus (population 889,000) and Cleveland (population 383,000), combines four of the five. The ski area only averages 30 to 50 inches of snowfall per year, depending upon the source, but there’s plenty of juice (snowmaking) to keep the lifts spinning.The place, in fact, has more skiers than it knows what to do with. Last year, Snow Trails began limiting season pass sales for the first time in its 60 seasons. The outdoor boom hit Ohio as much as it hit New England or Colorado. People wanted to ski. If they live in the north-central part of the state, they’ve got a fine little hill to do it on.What we talked aboutSummertime at Snow Trails; the passing of Snow Trails long-time founder and operator David Carto; the ski area’s founding in the ‘60s; the unique climate of Ohio’s Possum Run Valley; Snow Trails’ novel water source; introducing a “Western” feel to an Ohio ski area; how climate, technology, commitment, and culture work together to make a ski area succeed; the incredible longevity of Snow Trail’s management team; 60 years working at one ski area; Snow Trails’ future as a family-run ski area; don’t let your significant other teach you how to ski; learning to ski on ropetows; the insane grind of a lower Midwest ski season; the Cal Ripken of skiing: 22 years as GM and he’s never missed a day; reflecting on last ski season; “whenever the opportunity comes to make snow, come November, we’re going to do it”; managing volume at a small, insanely busy ski area during the Covid boom; limiting season pass sales; when Snow Trails’ season passes may go on sale; whether Snow Trails has considered joining the Indy Pass; watching Ohio’s collection of independent ski areas slowly consolidate under a single owner throughout the early 2000s; the moment Vail bought four of the five public ski areas in Ohio; Vail’s abysmal performance in Ohio this past season and how Snow Trails rose above skiing’s larger labor and weather struggles to offer 79 hours of operations per week; how Snow Trails will respond to Vail’s $20-an-hour minimum wage; the “gut punch” of Vail’s decision to slash operating hours and days of operation after Epic Pass sales ended; whether the ski area will bring back midnight Fridays; oh man you do NOT take night skiing away from Midwesterners; thoughts on how Vail can turn around the disappointing state of their operations in Ohio; how the installation of carpet lifts transformed the beginner experience at Snow Trails; which chairlift the ski area would like to upgrade next; where the resort is thinking about installing a ropetow; the best location on the mountain to potentially add an additional chairlift; where Snow Trails could potentially expand; the story behind Snow Trails’ glades, an anomaly in the lower Midwest; advancing snowmaking technology and how it increases resilience to climate change; what’s new at Snow Trails for the 2022-23 ski season; and RFID.  Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewVail stole the show in Ohio this past winter, mostly through a stunning display of callous ineptitude. Their four ski areas, which for decades have spun the lifts seven days per week, 10 or 12 or more hours per day, slashed hours and days of operation. Here’s what you were faced with, this past winter, if you were an Epic Pass holder in Ohio:Alpine Valley: closed Monday-Thursday, 3:30-9 Friday, 9-4 weekends (19.5 hours per week)Boston Mills: closed Monday & Tuesday, 10-3 Wednesday and Thursday, 4-10 Friday, 9-5 weekends (32 hours per week)Brandywine: 4-10 Monday-Friday, 9-5 Saturday and Sunday (46 hours per week)Mad River: 3-9 Monday-Friday, 10-5 Saturday and Sunday (44 hours per week)There were several elements of this modified schedule that were stunning in their complete misapprehension of the local market. First: night skiing, in the Midwest, is everything. Everything. Eliminating it – on Saturdays especially – is baffling beyond belief. Second: curtailing hours after season pass sales are complete is an offensive bait-and-switch, particularly for Midwesterners, who already weather the disrespect of the “flyover country” label. “How dumb does this Colorado, big-mountain company think we are?” was, by all accounts, the sort-of meta-narrative defining local sentiment this past season. Yes, the Epic Ohio Pass – good for unlimited access to all four of the state’s Vail-owned ski areas – started at just $279 for the 2021-22 ski season (it’s $305 right now), but it came with an implied promise that the ski areas would function as the ski areas always had. Crowded? Yes. Frantic? Yes. Existing on the margins of where people can hack a ski experience out of nature’s ferocious whims? Always. But it would be skiing, pretty much whenever you wanted it, for 12 weeks from mid-December to mid-March.Vail did not deliver on that expectation. The company responded to a mild early season and tight labor market not by dumping resources into operations and hiring but by retreating. Not just in Ohio, but in Indiana and Missouri as well. Paoli Peaks operated four days per week. The Missouri ski areas did better, with seven-day schedules and a decent amount of night skiing. But overall, Vail Resorts did not look like Vail Resorts in the lower Midwest during the 2021-22 ski season. The largest ski company in the world – proud, bold, insatiable, domineering Vail – looked bumbling, scared, confused, lost.And they would have gotten away with it, too, were it not for those meddling independent ski areas that carried on as though it were a completely normal Midwest ski season. Vail owns seven of the nine public ski areas in Ohio, Indiana, and Missouri. The other two – Perfect North, Indiana and Snow Trails – absolutely embarrassed Vail, exposing every flimsy excuse the company made for curtailing operations. Perfect North spun the lifts 89 hours per week. Snow Trails went 79, offering night skiing until 9 p.m. seven days per week. How did they do this? “We did what we always did,” Crislip told me in the interview. But what was that, exactly? And what could Vail learn from a little reflection after the humbling that was this past Ohio ski season?Why you should ski Snow TrailsCrislip mused, during our conversation, on the long-term advantages of severely discounting lift tickets for school groups. Those discounted tickets, he said, pay big dividends down the line.No kidding. I only ever tried skiing because 200-vertical-foot Mott Mountain, Michigan offered $6 lift tickets to my high school in the winter of 1992. I think rentals were an extra $5. A bus ride to the hill and back – about half an hour each way – was free.Mott Mountain is long gone, but I think we can conclude that the ski industry’s return-on-investment was sufficient. The amount of money that I’ve spent on the sport in the decades since that first bus ride is all of it. There were winters during which I did little else but ski and purchased almost nothing that was not directly ski related, other than gasoline and Taco Bell.Which is great for kids, right? But why would an accomplished skier ever want to ski a bump like Snow Trails, let alone travel there to do it on purpose? It’s a rhetorical question, asked because the world is still filled with studly chest-beaters, who answer questions like this:With machofest responses like this:Twenty years ago, we’d say that if you wanted someone to expose their true selves, get them drunk or angry. Now, you can just open their social media accounts. I don’t know where this dude lives, but if it’s anywhere near Snow Trails, I’d give him this bit of unsolicited advice: put your ego down (it may require the assistance of a forklift), store it somewhere safe, buy a season pass, and go enjoy yourself. If you can’t have fun skiing a bump like this, then I’m not sure you understand how to have fun skiing at all. Get to know the hill, get creative, nod to the lifties – treat it like your local bar or gym or coffee shop. Somewhere to be in the wintertime that isn’t your couch.  Or wait until your trip to Whistler and be happy skiing six days per year. I can’t tell you how to live. I’m just here to make suggestions. Here in New York, I know plenty of people like this. They wouldn’t dare ski Mountain Creek, New Jersey’s beehive-busy analogue to Snow Trails. “You probably ski Mountain Creek” they’ll type on social media, as though there’s something wrong with a thousand-footer with high-speed lifts and a happy hour-priced season pass. But once you adopt this mentality, it’s malignant. Soon, you’re also too good for Hunter, then Gore, then Killington, then, like the Twitter turkey above, the venerable Jay Peak, the NEK powder palace that averages more inches of average annual snowfall than Steamboat or Winter Park. Before you know it, your ski-day choices are down to Snowbird, Jackson Hole, Palisades Tahoe, and Revelstoke. Anything else “isn’t real skiing.”Or something like that. It’s all a little tedious and stupid. We’re fortunate, in this country, to have hundreds of viable ski areas, pretty much anyplace that hills and cold collide. If you live anywhere near one, there are a lot more reasons to frequent it than to snub it. There are plenty of skiers who live in Florida or Texas or Georgia, places where the outdoor lift-served bump is an impossibility. Not to sound like your mom when you were five years old, but there are plenty of kids in the world that don’t have any toys to play with, so try to be happy with the ones you’ve got. Go skiing.More Snow TrailsA Mansfield News Journal obituary for longtime Snow Trails owner David CartoNear the end of the interview, Crislip says refers to the work that “you and Matt” are doing to promote Midwest skiing. Matt is Matt Zebransky, founder of midwestskiers.com and all-around good dude. The site is comprehensive and terrific, and Zebransky is a really talented video producer and editor, who puts together some knockout reels laser-focused on Midwest skiing. Zebransky introduced me to Crislip after he hosted me for a podcast interview recently (I’ll let you know whenever that’s live). The Midwest Skiers Instagram account is a terrific follow.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 60/100 in 2022, and number 306 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane). You can also email skiing@substack.com.This podcast hit paid subscribers’ inboxes on June 2. Free subs got it on June 5. To make sure you get future pods as soon as they’re live, please consider an upgrade. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe