Podcast appearances and mentions of jay peak

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Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CamelbackOwned by: EPR Properties, managed by Peregrine Hospitality (formerly KSL Resorts)Located in: Tannersville, PennsylvaniaYear founded: 1963Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Shawnee Mountain (:24), Jack Frost (:26), Big Boulder (:27), Skytop Lodge (:29), Saw Creek (:37), Blue Mountain (:41), Pocono Ranchlands (:43), Montage (:44), Hideout (:51), Elk Mountain (1:05), Bear Creek (1:09), Ski Big Bear (1:16)Base elevation: 1,252 feetSummit elevation: 2,079 feetVertical drop: 827 feetSkiable Acres: 166Average annual snowfall: 50 inchesTrail count: 45, with three new trails for 2026-27 (not on the map below, but discussed on the podcast)Lift count: 12 (1 high-speed six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Camelback's lift fleet)For reference:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:37.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Wednesday, September 16th, 2026, and I've got a really good show for you today.00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:45.000Stuart Winchester: we're going to talk some Pennsylvania skiing. And Pennsylvania skiing is a really interesting thing. As I travel around the country.00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:56.000Stuart Winchester: and ski at all these different places in the Midwest, and out West, and in New England, and in the Mid-Atlantic. Uh, and as I talk to folks who… who don't ski that much, or only ski at the big mountains.00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:05.000Stuart Winchester: I'll often bring up some experience I had at a Pennsylvania ski area. Pennsylvania has quite a few ski areas as 21.00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:20.000Stuart Winchester: public chairlift-served ski areas, and it does 2.6 million skier visits on average per year. That is more than any state except for Colorado, California, Utah, Vermont, and New York.00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.000Stuart Winchester: It's more than Washington, it's more than Oregon, it's more than Montana, it's more than New.00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:39.000Stuart Winchester: So, Pennsylvania is a really important ski state, which is probably why Vail Resorts owns 8 ski areas there, because it is really close to a lot of population centers. In western PA, you have Pittsburgh.00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: and Seven Springs, and Laurel, and Hidden Valley, and then you have Philadelphia on the east side, and you can also draw up from Baltimore and D.C. for Round Top and Whitetail. And uh…00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.000Stuart Winchester: And Jack Frost's Big Boulder up in the Poconos. So…00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: Vail has a big presence there.00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:15.000Stuart Winchester: Icon has a presence there with Camelback and Blue Mountain. Uh, and then Indy Pass just signed their 8th ski area in Pennsylvania with Spring Mountain, uh, down near Philadelphia. So, so it's, it's a place where a lot of skiers start.00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.000Stuart Winchester: And it's a little bit of a funny place to ski, because…00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: it tends to have an outsized number of novice skiers, which is great. They're very good at doing that. Uh, but it can make it a little chaotic.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: And the lift lines can get a little crazy, and people are all over the hill, and sometimes they're walking down the hill because they're frustrated and they're giving up.00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and…00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.000Stuart Winchester: You take that as your baseline in Pennsylvania.00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.000Stuart Winchester: And you had any sort of complications.00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:54.000Stuart Winchester: And things get out of hand really quickly. And in general.00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:00.000Stuart Winchester: For that reason, the ski areas that have survived in Pennsylvania.00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:07.000Stuart Winchester: are among the best operators in the world, and I would put that up against anyone.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: It's a very, very challenging environment, not only because you have a high number of novice skiers.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but also because you have…00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:31.000Stuart Winchester: not a ton of snow, sometimes in the west part of the state, where there's higher elevation, they do get a lot of snow, but… but not as a rule, you couldn't count on it for natural snow. Uh, you get a lot of rain, you get a lot of warm-ups.00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and… and you, in general, have to rely on…00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:42.000Stuart Winchester: a very short season, generally mid-December-ish to mid-March-ish.00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiers there…00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: They're they're accustomed to a pretty high standard, so.00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:57.000Stuart Winchester: So when things do get out of control, uh…00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: They really rebelled, and they really noticed. So, a couple years ago, this is what happened at Camelback. So, Camelback…00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I don't generally do ops stories, uh…00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.000Stuart Winchester: ski area didn't groom this run, or they haven't opened this lift, or, uh, you know, they usually let this bump up, but they don't, or, or…00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:27.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they… they are trying to save money, or they're being cheap. I generally don't bother with those, even though I get a lot of messages.00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: Complaining about things like that, because there's almost always a pretty good reason.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and it's almost always temporary, and it's really not worth the effort.00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: to write the story if I'm just writing about, you know, why Stratton or Mount Snow or Magic Mountain didn't open a certain lift on a certain day.00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's, it's a lot to track down and it's a lot of, uh, this person said this and the other person said that. It's just not the kind of thing that I'm want to cover with the storm, right? I want to do bigger stories. I want to do trend stories. I want to look at the culture and evolution of skiing.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the passes, and all the infrastructure, and all the fun stuff. So I don't generally cover the day-to-day stuff, just because…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:18.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that remain in 2026 are, for the most part, run by really good operators.00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it… because… and they've survived. Most of the bad ski areas that were either mismanaged or were in the wrong places, they went out of business a long time ago, which is why the number of ski areas has been stable for around 25 years now in America.00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: So I but I started to notice.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: several years ago that I was getting an outsized number of complaints around one ski area in particular in the Poconos.00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: And it was Camelback.00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000Stuart Winchester: And Camelback had a long history of being an independent.00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: Really…00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: the way it's been described to me by… by season pass holders, and I've skied…00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: some at Camelback, but I don't have that depth of knowledge of having grown up there.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:20.000Stuart Winchester: That Camelback for a long time, for decades, set the standard on snowmaking, on grooming, on just general maintenance of lifts in the ski area in the Poconos. And that was why they had chosen to ski there all those years.00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: But things had started to fall apart when a new owner showed up in 2019. It was at the time KSL Capital, who was.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: was managing it for EPR Properties, which is the entity that bought it, and they own a bunch of ski areas, EPR Properties, including a bunch owned by Vail, including North Star, and a lot of the old Peak Resorts in Ohio and such.00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.000Stuart Winchester: And KSL Resorts was a division of KSL Capital.00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.000Stuart Winchester: which is a part owner of Altera.00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000Stuart Winchester: But for some reason, Altera, which is very good at running ski resorts.00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: did not…00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:15.000Stuart Winchester: get assigned as the… as the owner of Camelback. And when KSL Resorts purchased Blue Mountain, not in Ontario, the Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania, that's about 45 minutes from Camelback, two years later, in 2021.00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:26.000Stuart Winchester: That ski area also did not fall under Altera's ownership. And it was an odd choice to make, because Altera's really good at running ski areas, and they run…00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mammoth, and Deer Valley, and Steamboat, and Solitude, and Palisades Tahoe, and Stratton, and Sugarbush, and they definitely have.00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.000Stuart Winchester: the institutional knowledge and internal firepower to be able to run these ski areas in the Poconos.00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Blue Mountain…00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000Stuart Winchester: Had the benefit of a long time tenured management team.00:10:47.000 --> 00:11:02.000Stuart Winchester: That kept the place, by all accounts, running pretty well. Camelback, on the other hand, seemed to be falling apart before our eyes, and before the eyes of the loyalist skiers who loved the place so much. And they were really, really concerned, and I started to…00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Because they had put, uh, a management team in place, it seemed.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.000Stuart Winchester: that…00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:22.000Stuart Winchester: was not familiar with the… with the inner workings of a ski area. Uh, I… I hosted Dave Makarski, the former general manager of Kalenbach, on this podcast.00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: and very nice guy. We had a great conversation. Uh, he's not a skier. And, and, you know, sometimes you can be not a skier and run a great ski resort. Uh, look at Bill Stritzler up at Smuggler's Notch.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Bill hasn't skied in years, and he snowboarded for a little bit, but he's not a daily skier. Look at Shawnee.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: that where the owner… that's one of the most modern, nice ski areas in the Poconos, uh, and the owner has not skied in decades. So, so it's not always necessary, uh, but…00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: It does help and it's certainly a benefit. So everyone I talked to, I was, I was gathering all this stuff for a story and I was gonna write about Camelback and, and it, it really seemed like it was the worst run ski area anywhere that I could find based on the amount of feedback I was getting.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: I was gathering all this feedback from all these long-time pass holders, and then they hired a new general manager, and so I scrapped the story, but I still wanted to get it, and by all accounts, Jason Bays, who I'll bring on the podcast in a moment.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:34.000Stuart Winchester: has really done a nice job of turning CamelBak around. So, so let's go to Jason now.00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:16.000Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the Vice President and General Manager of Camelback Ski Area in Pennsylvania.00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:26.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback runs six chairlifts, or maybe seven. I might have had a typo there. Serving 45 trails on an 827-foot vertical drop.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:41.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Camelback, he was general manager for Great Wolf Resorts around the United States. He also spent time as chief operating officer and general manager of Mountain Creek Ski Area in New Jersey and director of operations.00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: for Jay Peak, Vermont. His very first jobs as a teenager were as a lifeguard and ski instructor at Camelback. Jason Bay is my guest. Jason, welcome to the Storm. Awesome to have you. How you doing today?00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:00.000Jason Bays: Thank you, Stuart. Great to be here. I've been a listener from day one, so excited to join you.00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: I love that. I'm so hyped to hear that. I know I started with a little Northeast focus. You know, you're the… you probably know this already, but you're the second straight guest I've had on. There was a Mountain Creek alum, Chris Haggerty, on yesterday. Are you acquainted with Chris?00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.000Jason Bays: Yeah, Chris and I worked together, um, back in our days at Mountain Creek, great guy.00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm not sure, I'm sure you're aware I'm based in New York City and Mountain Creek is one of my go-tos and, and was my home mountain before I started traveling all over the place for the storm. So, so, you know, Jason, I, I think it's awesome that you grew up at Camelback. Tal.00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:41.000Stuart Winchester: your childhood Camelback. What was the kingdom of Camelback like to you, uh, when you were growing up skiing there?00:15:40.000 --> 00:16:03.000Jason Bays: Yeah, look, I, you know, took, I grew up in Pocono Kid, born and raised 10 minutes from the resort. After school ski program was the first, you know, first sort of foray into life at Camelback and was immediately hooked in the summer as a swimming pool and two water slides. I thought that was the most awesome place in the world too.00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:21.000Jason Bays: And my parents thought it was a great babysitting service, you know, relative to that. So it was just an awesome, awesome place to grow up and, you know, be part of the small but mighty ski community that is Tannersville, Pennsylvania, in this area, in the Poconos.00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:39.000Jason Bays: um, you know, when it came to get a first job, uh, there's no place I was, uh, gonna consider other than Camelback. It's where all my friends were, it's where we all hung out all the time, and, um, you know, really just got introduced to, uh, to the sport, and, um, had some freedom. It was the first time I had some freedom, and it was to be at Camelback, so that's.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:56.000Stuart Winchester: So you worked there, and you were part of the machine, so to speak, and I realized you were sort of on the peripheral of the machine, as opposed to in the center of it, as you are now. But, you know, you grew up in the Poconos, and had that experience, and you had this vision of Camelback in your head, right? Then you went off and had a big life, as…00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Jason Bays: Yes.00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: as people do, and you went and worked at all these places that I just mentioned.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: And then you came back to Camelback.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: When you, when you arrived.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: How had the place changed? And I just want to tee this up. I, you know.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:19.000Stuart Winchester: before you came on, I was talking about how I don't generally write operations stories, right? Because it… there's usually a good reason for why a trail is closed, a lift's not running.00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but a few years ago, I started to get an outsized number of complaints about Camelback.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:38.000Stuart Winchester: And so I started to write a story about it, and then when you came along, I shelved it, because honestly, everyone immediately was like, oh, this is so much better. So, you know, how had…00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback changed.00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: when you…00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000Stuart Winchester: Came back to work there.00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:51.000Stuart Winchester: And what were the challenges facing the resort? What did you focus on immediately?00:17:50.000 --> 00:18:08.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I'll just back up to say, you know, just to contextualize, um, from when I was there as a teenager and, um, through college on the ski team, too, I would say that community was a really big word, um, that was used all the time. You, you felt like it was, it was the Camelback community, and there's a really big emphasis on the ski product.00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:28.000Jason Bays: Um, as a ski instructor, like, what we were putting out, how we were doing lessons, how many lessons we could do, and the experience that was surrounding that. And same thing on the water park side. And, you know, I think the, um, you know, some of the observations, um, coming back to Camelback was, um, I think there's a little bit of focus, um, focus direction for, for, like, to focus on the ski product.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:44.000Jason Bays: and focusing on the water park product, and I sort of look at it as, like, a… as Disney World, right? Whereas we fill out… if we do the ski part well, we do the snow tubing part well, we do the water park well, that puts heads in beds, um, versus trying to put heads in beds.00:18:44.000 --> 00:19:01.000Jason Bays: And then have them do the activities. We're leading with an activity front and centered focus. And that means making the strategic investments in the ski product, in our recreational product, and making that the very best that it can be.00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:23.000Jason Bays: back in 2008 when I was here as a teenager, that was all there was. There was no hotel product, right? So the ski product got outsized attention just naturally because it was a 560-acre resort that identified as a ski area and a water park. And I think some of the context that was missing was that while there's been a great evolution of Camelback as a four-season resort.00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:40.000Jason Bays: It's really important that, to me, that each of those business units gets the time and attention that they would deserve if they were stand-alone units, particularly because a cog… it's a cog in the wheel, and that wheel is… it's a flywheel. It needs to… it all needs to turn at once, and so we lead with.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000Jason Bays: the recreational offerings first.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, you mentioned the community, and I wasn't aware…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: that there was such a strong community around Camelback, and I'm not surprised, because most ski areas have that group of folks who, you know, they're retirees, and they boot up at 8am, and they take runs together.00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:14.000Stuart Winchester: But they were really passionate, and the running theme, Jason, in the emails and messages that I got from Camelback locals was that they loved Camelback. It wasn't that they hated Camelback, they hated to complain about Camelback.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: They wanted to love it, but they couldn't. There was there was.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of things they cited, uh, not making snowmaking when it's cold, understaffed grooming, uh, missed lift inspections. I don't know if this is true. This is what people were… they were reaching, I think, for answers. Uh, put it all together, and there was… it was definitely…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: seemed as though the ski product was not the focus. So when you came in, what did you focus on right away and say, okay, this is what we gotta change, you know, we have to cover every trail 100% right away, or whatever it was?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:09.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I think that's, look, I would start, you hit the nail on the head that there's a very passionate skiing community here at Camelback and in the Poconos and it means a lot to people. This is second, third generations that are learning to ski here, bring their families here and be part of this. And to your point, everyone wants to be prideful of Camelback, right?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:24.000Jason Bays: This was the, this was family run for a really long time and, you know, very focused on sort of the, you know, season pass holders renewing year after year.00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:40.000Jason Bays: You know, a couple of things. One is I think that how we authentically tell our story isn't done in a way that is, you know, is done in a way that's authentic. A, bringing back the Camelback Mountain Facebook page that communicated ski related content.00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:22:06.000Jason Bays: Right? I think that, you know, there's only so many things you can say about a hotel room and how exciting it is. Like, we really lead now first with authentically telling the story. Our snow report got a lot more detailed, gave granular information as to what was going on. So, you know, did we have a perfect winter last winter? By all means, no, but we communicated that authentically. And where we messed up, we took.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:23.000Jason Bays: the blame for it, and said, hey, we didn't get this right, and where we were working to improve the experience, we communicated that… communicated that story. So, to me, it started from a communication standpoint, that we were authentic, that we were honest, that we were truthful, and that we were communicating on a medium that.00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:31.000Jason Bays: our guests would see, um, and relate to. So I think a big miss was, I think, admittedly, a big miss was removing the, um, Camelback Mountain.00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:53.000Jason Bays: social media pages, um, and bringing those back were really important so that, um, we could tell the story authentically. I think SKUs really appreciate, um, knowing what's going on, and to your point on, hey, there's sort of this rumor flying or that rumor flying, um, you know, we were able to, uh, sort of hone in and, and tell, tell that story. Secondarily, I think from an infrastructure standpoint.00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:09.000Jason Bays: um, we really needed to make sure that we had, um, the right team in place. And we have an amazingly talented team at Camelback, um, but we did not have key positions filled, um, in certain areas. Um, and so, we bolstered up the snowmaking. Snowmaking team went from.00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000Stuart Winchester: Like, what areas?00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:30.000Jason Bays: you know, 3 to 4 to 30, um, this past winter, um, that makes a big difference, right? Our trail rollout was, um, you know, first to open in the East, uh, for Pennsylvania, um, and, uh, um, and, and focus on the core products. Um, same thing with lift operations. We brought in a really experienced lift, uh, maintenance manager.00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.000Stuart Winchester: Hey!00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:46.000Jason Bays: Um, to our team that really helped, um, support our Lyft, um, uh, operation. Um, decisions on when Lyfts ran and what time they ran, uh, you know, our thought was, let's, um, be more… like, you have to run the Terrain Park Lyft every day.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:06.000Jason Bays: to me, that's a commitment. We make that every day. We say we're running the Glen Lift every day. It services great novice terrain. It services the train park. And so, looking at the operational plan and saying, okay, what are ways that we can give back, you know, and make deposits back to our skiers? And in turn.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:24.000Jason Bays: that builds momentum, right? People talk, and, like, the ski community is so connected, right? It's like, if you do something, like, people find out about it, because they're really, you know, they hear about it. And so, for us, focus on the core business was, um, you know, from a ski standpoint, was really important, and the infrastructure.00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:41.000Jason Bays: to be able to do it. And I would just, lastly, just say I go back to making sure that our team had the resources to do their job. We're supported, we're empowered, collaborative leadership, you know, we sat around the table and said, this is the operating plan, this is what we're going to do for our guests.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:46.000Jason Bays: And then go out and execute it to the best we can.00:24:45.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Jason, I, I, I think you could have run for governor with one of the first things that you did, which was get rid of paid parking. I, I, I don't think that I've ever, uh, heard people happier about anything. Now, now, and let me, let me qualify this, right? I think in, in some instances, paid parking and parking reservations.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.000Stuart Winchester: make sense.00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:18.000Stuart Winchester: you know, super high volume days. Arapahoe Basin, I think, is a model in Colorado where they only charge for certain days and certain times, and they keep backing off which days as they learn when they really need it. Camelback was charging every day.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:36.000Stuart Winchester: All day, you know, a Monday with, you know, 10 people on the mountain, they were charging for it. And, you know, acknowledging that sometimes it's appropriate, I think Camelback got pretty out of hand with it, and when I had Mr. Markowski on the podcast, great guy, we had a great conversation, but he was not backing off that. He said, nope, paid parking.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: we're all in. You said no. So talk about that and how you sold. I'd imagine it was a revenue stream, right? And you had to sell management on that, and I don't know if I'm giving you credit for something someone else did, but talk to us about parking and the evolution there.00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:12.000Jason Bays: Yeah, that was a week one decision from the Camelback team when I got here made from our leadership team at Camelback that everyone was in alignment on our senior leadership team here at the property and myself to remove the paid parking. And I think definitely there's actually you have so many nice pictures behind you.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:30.000Jason Bays: I have a picture of the old paid parking sign behind me there, if you can see it on the corner, and it actually serves to me as a reminder of the guest experience, because someone's put a sticker on that paid parking sign that you probably can't see there, but it says, Ski Camelback, we're not happy until you're not happy.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:48.000Jason Bays: Um, and it's a reminder to, to me and our team, um, that we're here to have fun, and we're here for the guest experience, and we're here to live, live and breathe fun Camelback style. This is not a, um, you know, we want guests to look forward to, to being here. And I think, you know, yes, there was.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:05.000Jason Bays: So obviously we ran a financial model. We didn't just, you know, get rid of paid parking and not assume, you know, that there wasn't some revenue to be recaptured elsewhere with a strategy to do it. But I think more importantly, you know, think about it.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:22.000Jason Bays: a non-busy day, it might even be raining, it's 40 degrees, the last thing you want is someone running around a parking lot telling you, like, hey, I need you to hand over $15, and by the way, then you're gonna schlep your stuff up two different levels of parking, um, you know, that might be even charged higher, and then get to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:38.000Jason Bays: uh, the mountain and go to guest services. You know, I have a 3-year-old. If my wife and I went skiing, that would be an incredible amount of friction, um, just to get to, uh, the front of the mountain. And so I think putting ourselves in the guest lens of saying, is that really what we want the guests to experience?00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:53.000Jason Bays: Um, it's not, and, and it was a burden to everyone at this, you know, you think I'm talking about, we talked to frontline associates too, like, the first thing that they had to tell people was that they had to pay for parking. You just imagine, sort of, the cascading effect that, that, that, uh, that that had, and we said, look, is there.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:09.000Jason Bays: Um, is there a better way? Um, can we run shuttles to these lots and pick people up and bring them to the mountain and make them feel, um, you know, like our valued… like our valued guests? What does that arrival experience look like? Um, you know, that's really what we… what we looked at, and then said, okay.00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:25.000Jason Bays: can we… ultimately, will we drive more volume here? Will more people come because of a better guest experience? And I'll say that I would rather grow the sport, grow the industry. Our team would rather grow the sport and grow the industry than figuring out how to.00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Jason Bays: You know, sort of, you know, run a secondary ancillary business that's not to our core product and what we want our guests to experience here.00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, it's a little counterintuitive, but sometimes, by removing a revenue stream, you get that less-is-more effect. Another example, your season pass, you know, according to my records.00:28:48.000 --> 00:29:04.000Stuart Winchester: Starting in 2020 to ‘21, the season pass was $599 at its early bird price, and it hovered between that and $649 for the next five years. This year, you put it on sale for $399. It's still at that price for unlimited Camelback.00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:20.000Stuart Winchester: That's a great bargain for, uh, for a season pass on the East Coast, and, you know, for the listeners, you are competing with the Epic Pass, which has Jack Frost, Big Boulder, right down the road, a couple exits down I-80, and their Northeast season pass is pretty affordable, and it's a pretty good deal.00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:33.000Stuart Winchester: So… so talk to us about that decision and… and… and how… how that $399 is worth it. You also wrote back, if you want to talk about, uh, the… the triple pack. I thought that was great, and I don't have the price right in front of me, but… but you've really done a lot to… to…00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.000Stuart Winchester: create more of a value experience for that loyal Camelback skier, from my point of view.00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:55.000Jason Bays: Yeah, thank you, and that's definitely the goal. Um, you know, I think our thought process here is let's get more people on Snow, um, and have them have a great experience while they're here. Um, I would love to tell you that there's some master business plan behind this.00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:10.000Jason Bays: But, you know, truly, at the heart of what we do is, let's figure out how to get more people on snow, get them to a spot where they want to come back and learn and be part of it. And guess what I would just share to that is.00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:24.000Jason Bays: you know, we were charging a day ticket in 2025 of $169, um, at its highest point, right? And I would rather have a lifelong… I would rather have one per… I would much rather, I think from business proposition, we would rather have.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:39.000Jason Bays: one person definitely not come and spend $15 to $40 to park and $169 and say, I'm never coming back, versus $399, now they're like, wow, this place is awesome, I'm getting a great value, I bring my family.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000Stuart Winchester: Damn.00:30:39.000 --> 00:31:01.000Jason Bays: I want to come enjoy food and beverage. And hey, by the way, we also have this great snow tubing park and this great water park. And would you like to stay at our hotel when you come with your season pass and enjoy Aquatopia? And we're debuting The Curse of Camelback this fall, right? Which is the Halloween, if you haven't heard, it's a Halloween 13 scare zones. Take a chair, lift up to it.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:24.000Jason Bays: But I say all that to say we've got so many great cross marketing promotional opportunities at Camelback that that really becomes a super compelling business case for us. And I think it's the right thing to do for the sport is grow it, make it more accessible, allow more people to come here and see what we have to offer. I can't tell you how many people I meet, whether it's snow tubing, skiing.00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:41.000Jason Bays: water park, the hotel, whatever they're here for, CBKMA or Adventure Park, they have no idea that the other part exists to, um, the resort. And I'll share that that's been the case even in, like, when I was, uh, at Jay Peak running the water park.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.000Jason Bays: People would come there, and they'd be like.00:31:43.000 --> 00:32:02.000Jason Bays: what is this mountain that is here? And it's Jay Peak, like, one of the most hardcore ski resorts in the world. And there were people that were coming there and were like, I had no idea there was a ski resort here. So, if it's true at Jay Peak, it certainly is true at Camelback, where.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:19.000Jason Bays: we have all these different offerings that people don't know about, maybe necessarily about all of them, so our fundamental business philosophy is make it accessible, make them lifelong, um, skiers and riders, and introduce them to everything that we have to offer here in the Poconos. And I would just argue, when I say Poconos.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:41.000Jason Bays: Like go, like experience Shawnee and experience Jack Frost Big Boulder and experience, you know, the other great ski areas in this region and Mountain Creek and wherever else and get a flavor for it. I think that's, we could use more skiers in the industry and to grow the sport. So for us, that's sort of the long-term business model that we're using.00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, I just looked at the triple ticket, and it looks like $149, and I think that's no blackouts. $199 includes rentals. That's pretty amazing. So, talk about that product, and then you mentioned the $169 peak day ticket. Have you settled on prices yet for 2020?00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:03.000Stuart Winchester: 6, 27. I should have checked your site in advance, but I didn't. So I don't know if you've.00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we have not, uh, posted, uh, day ticket prices for this year. Last year, um, we didn't exceed around $110, um, on a day ticket. Uh, so we kept it, I think, pretty reasonable for, for, for a, for a Pocono offering. Um, triple tickets, massive, um, success, uh, for us.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:37.000Jason Bays: Um, and when we talk about, like, again, getting more people introduced to the sport, you don't necessarily pick up skiing on the first time. Um, you think about that rental product, which we, um, tremendously… whatever we had on the pro forma for that was, uh, blown by by, like.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:53.000Jason Bays: 400% on the triple ticket with rentals. And what I really believe in is that, you know, you become a lifelong skier by getting repetition, not by going once a year. It's really hard to sustain as a skier going once a year.00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:11.000Jason Bays: and saying, oh yeah, that was our trip. We're really trying to create a guest for life and get them to return visit. That's in many ways more important to us than, again, trying to get, like, the highest yield on that one day that they picked. Like, come back and visit our resort and, um, you know, again, the business side to this is.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:28.000Jason Bays: we're cross-marketing across all of our other offerings here that we have on this campus to say, come and visit us again. And again, to us, that's more important than, you know, the highest yield that we can get to. So the triple ticket's really successful. And I think one last thing I would share.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:46.000Jason Bays: a lot of season passes in the market right now, um, the triple ticket's a great opportunity for people to get a couple of days at Camelback, even if they've committed somewhere else, and particularly, you know, our long season, um, there's plenty of time to use it, um, as well, uh, from the, uh, long season that we established from last year.00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Jason, I think that's a really smart way to look at it as…00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: a… creating a habit rather than pulling as much yield as possible. And a lot of the larger operators.00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: get frustrated with me and the rest of the ski media because they don't understand why we focus on that peak price, right? Because the peak lift ticket this year at Beaver Creek is $392, set to be. Probably almost no one will pay that price, but…00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:28.000Stuart Winchester: What it does is it acts as a, a billboard for the rest of the ski industry and especially so, so Camelback for, for people who don't know when you're driving on I 80 I mean, you see it, it looms right over the highway. It is one of the major interstates in America, especially at night. The thing is lit up.00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: And so, chances are, if people think about skiing, and they think about where to go, they're gonna think about the most obvious one, and that's Camelback, and that's why, for many years, it was that, or Seven Springs was the busiest ski area in Pennsylvania, traditionally. So I think that's a really smart way to look at it, because if people show up that one time, and.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: cost them, you know, $500 for 2 people, they're just not gonna come back, and they're not gonna try Shawnee, or… or Blue Mountain, or Jack Frost, or Elk Mountain, or Montage. So, um, I wanna talk about… Jason, I wanna talk about Lyft.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:16.000Stuart Winchester: And… can you see this trail map? This is an old trail map. I mentioned that I know this, so for those watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, you can see this. So there's been a ton of changes, and I want to break all these down with you. The first I want to talk about is, over the past couple years.00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mark Antony and Cleopatra, these two lifts right here, an old triple and an old double, have been removed. Can you talk about why you took those lifts out of service, and if you plan to replace them with anything, or what you planned, or what the rationale was behind it?00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:49.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, that does predate my time here, that they had reached the end of their, um, uh, ability to operate. Um, and so they have, um, both been, um, sort of partially disassembled. Um, there is unfortunately not.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:36:49.000 --> 00:37:05.000Jason Bays: I, by the way, two of my favorite lifts when I was a ski instructor, because you could get right up and not wait in long lines on the weekends, so absolutely realizing and recognizing the capacity that they brought, but no opportunity for us to.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:23.000Jason Bays: um, reinstate those lifts as presently, um, as presently, uh, uh, sort of, um, situated, um, and, and not, not, not able to, uh, um, not able to, uh, rerun them. It will require a, um, new, uh, chairlift to, um, to ultimately replace.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:37.000Jason Bays: those two lifts. It saddens me to share that, but that is, in fact, what has happened there, and I've been very open with our season pass holders about that messaging and the why behind it.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: So, so in fantasy ski resort world, Jason.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: Would you put a new lift here, and what would you put, if you could?00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:04.000Jason Bays: Yeah, absolutely. Um, same thing. We've, uh, we've made clear, uh, with no time, no official time frame to share, um, but certainly, uh, we've, we've, um, had, uh, preliminary conversations, um, about a fixed grip, um, quad that would, uh, would be able to take the place of both of those lifts, uh, and create that.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.000Jason Bays: original redundancy that those two lifts brought to the resort when they were in operation.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be really nice. So, so, so these are gone and I, I have a, a current trail map now. So, um, and, and it's not completely current. We'll discuss the new trails in a moment, but this is the most current posted on your website. So, uh, we go over, these are the lifts that remain and see, uh, yeah, I, I miscounted in my intro, so sorry about that.00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: So this one is Stevenson, and Stevenson was, uh, it's a high-speed quad, uh, for the listeners, and it… it was a real junker. It was always stop, stop, stop, and, you know, it was… it was really… seemed to be falling apart and have a lot of issues. Now, uh, in 2020…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:51.000Stuart Winchester: 5, this year, or 2024, I believe, Camelback, uh, McCarthy, the GM at the time, sent out a letter saying it was due for a…00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Waltz.00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me see what he said… like, a complete modernization of Stevenson. So, so did that happen? And talk to us about Stevenson, and what kind of shape it's in right now.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:20.000Jason Bays: Yeah, great, um, yes, that was a, uh, look, an amazing, um, project that was completed by, uh, by Dave and team, um, to modernize that lift. Um, it has, essentially, Doppelmayr came in and put in an entire new, uh, minus the, uh, minus the, uh, uh, the terminals and the.00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:35.000Jason Bays: Um, uh, and the structure itself, um, essentially all new components, all new electrical, um, uh, wiring components to it, a lot of the things that had plagued it. Um, and last year, uh, it operated 138 days.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Jason Bays: Uh, which for Pennsylvania, uh, that's pretty darn good. I think we recognize it's a workhorse, um, it's key to accessing some really, um, fantastic terrain for us, um, and that modernization project with Doppel… in, um, partnership with Doppelmeyer that was done in the summer and fall of 2025.00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:08.000Jason Bays: um, was, uh, very, uh, so it's all immediate impact, um, with, uh, Stevenson Reliability this past year, and we expect that to, uh, you know, knock on wood, to, uh, to continue going forward. We essentially, again, have a brand new lift, minus the, uh.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.000Jason Bays: Uh, minus the physical pieces.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:26.000Stuart Winchester: That's a really smart way to do it because they are tremendously expensive, these new lifts. And for folks who are watching or listening, this Stevenson is really important because you walk out of this giant hotel that's right here, that's not on the trail map with 400 and some rooms, and that is how you get up the mountain. Otherwise you got to.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:41.000Stuart Winchester: pull your way over, so when that lift is not running or has problems, it's a real big issue. So, the alternative was, over here, Black Bear 6, uh, you replaced an old high-speed quad that was there, and… and I love this Black Bear 6 lift. It is…00:40:41.000 --> 00:41:01.000Stuart Winchester: Freakin' Ferrari, man. I think the price they gave me was something like $12 million that they spent, or maybe it was $10 to put that in. So that's the alternative, right? If you don't just modernize that current lift, you replace it. So, uh, Black Bear is awesome. I love it. It has bubbles. Is it too much? I mean, I know that KSL Now Peregrine had reasons for.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:16.000Stuart Winchester: for putting it in, but what have you learned from a couple of years of having BlackBerry around, which is, again, probably the nicest lift in the state of Pennsylvania and one of the nicest in the Northeast, but maybe a little heavier than what you need for CamelBak, but I don't know, you tell me.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:41.000Jason Bays: Yeah, you know, you know what I would share to that, um, you know, we, we brought it back for scenic chairlift rides this summer, and I mean, it's a massive hit. The summer, summer guests love, uh, the bubbles, they put them down when it's sunny, they put them down, um, probably gets more use in the summer as a bubble lift than the winter, uh, but look, it's, it's nice to, uh, have on the days where, you know, there's some liquid precipitation out here. It certainly happens in the Poconos.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:58.000Jason Bays: um, and, uh, and, and or, um, uh, you know, other, other weather events, it's, it's, it's a nice to have, um, and it certainly, it gets you up in, you know, a little bit over two minutes. Um, it's a smooth ride, it's a great ride. Um, you are not going to get any complaints from me that we have a, um.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.000Jason Bays: bubble, D-line, six-pack, um, in place, uh, and able to operate as our main workhorse lift. Um, and, uh, I think the six-pack versus the quad was absolutely the right, uh, call. Um…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:27.000Jason Bays: from my experience being here before with the Sullivan Express, um, with the four-seater, the six-seater, just the… the added, uh, ability, uh, there is, uh, is… is well worth it. So, uh, we're happy to have that… happy to have that lift. I… I wouldn't, uh… I wouldn't…00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000Jason Bays: We won't be trading it in at this point. Let's put it that way.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: It is a gorgeous machine, and I have to tell you, I'm that weird person who, if there's a line on one lift.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And no line on the lift next to it. Even if it's a slower lift, I'll take the slower lift, because I just would rather not deal with the hassle of the line. So right here, for those who are watching, is the Bailey Double, and this is an old chair lift. It's an old slow double, it runs almost exactly parallel to Black Bear 6, doesn't land quite as high.00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: on the mountain, but functionally, it does about the same thing for you. So I like Bailey, and I was glad to see that not only did you keep it, and it does run, and that was true even under the previous regime, but you got a new gearbox for it, which is a really big deal for a lift like this in several decades. Also, talk about the work you've done on Bailey, and how you hope to use that lift.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000Stuart Winchester: this year to complement Black Bear.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so, um, Bailey Lift…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:32.000Jason Bays: full disclosure, Bailey Lift, Meadows Lift, Raceway Lift, and our season pass holders are very aware of this. Um, unfortunately, uh, we're not, um…00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:41.000Jason Bays: ready for day one of last year, um, or even close. And so, uh, we had to do a lot of, um…00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:57.000Jason Bays: normal PM maintenance, um, throughout the, um, end of fall and into winter to have all of them operational. Um, what I share to that is, um, we will run, just level set here really quickly, we will run all the lifts that we have on this trail map.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:02.000Jason Bays: Um, and take care of them, maintain them, operate them.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Jason Bays: Staff them, everything that you would do to run the extra capacity, we certainly need it. We'd like more capacity, actually. So that being said, Bailey Lift is critical. We got it back online.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:34.000Jason Bays: End of January, it ran for 2 or 3 weekends, and we had a failed gearbox, um, on it, which is really unfortunate. Um, this off-season, uh, we've replaced the gearbox, we've done a full PM over the course of the summer on it, which is…00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:50.000Jason Bays: the, as you, as everyone knows, the ideal time, uh, to be, um, conducting such work, um, so that it is ready on, uh, day one. Um, it is a critical backup lift. We will run it every weekend.00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:07.000Jason Bays: Um, that we're, you know, in season, I would say in the heart of season, we're gonna run it. Won't be shy to not run it. Um, same thing with the Meadows, same thing with the Glen, same thing with the Raceway, which, um, you know, I know that that was, um, certainly chief among the complaints of.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:22.000Jason Bays: locals and guests who were visiting from out of town alike was Lyft availability, Lyft reliability. That was something that we focused as fast as we could on last year, but we're setting ourselves up this year to be.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:39.000Jason Bays: um, very proactive to that, and recognizing the importance of, of each of, uh, uh, you know, each of these. And look, every once in a while, uh, if the, you always want to have, like, Bailey is critical because it's the only other, if there's Black Bear, without Black Bear, it's the only other thing left, right?00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:55.000Jason Bays: Um, and so, uh, you know, I think the, you know, back in the, when I was here, like, every Lyft ran on the weekends. It was Camelback. Um, it was busy, right? Like, everything was going. That's, that's essentially our, our, our philosophy, um, will continue to be our philosophy going forward.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jason, I'll admit, I didn't come to Camelback last season, so I wasn't able to experience it firsthand. I really wanted to come to your May thing, which I'll talk about, I'll get to in a minute, but I had a shoulder surgery, so I wasn't able to do that. But I wasn't only basing my perceptions of C.00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: on locals' reactions. I had skied there myself in recent years, and the lift line management, I have to say.00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: It was…00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: really frustrating from a skier point of view, when you're waiting for the Stevenson lift, and there's a big line, and every chair is going up with one or two people, and this is not peak COVID or anything else, this is several years later.00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:50.000Stuart Winchester: So, you know, and I had a lot of locals tell me, oh, we walk up Sun Bowl because the lift line is just too chaotic. People come from both sides. No, no, again, that was all before. What's your philosophy of lift line management? How have you tried to tame that? And there's always, it's always going to be a little wild and hard in Pennsylvan.00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but they could definitely have been managed better. Is that something that was important to you, that you focused on?00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:15.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we focused on that. We have a new lift operations manager that was hired in November of 2025, who took the bull by the horns. We developed a supervisor team in fairly short order to that as well, to build out a well-rounded team. And then I would just share that our lift attendants.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Jason Bays: All hired locally within the community. And I think that we were fully staffed in LiftOps this year, which was a big, very big win. It starts there, right? A, the people, and then B, the right people.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000Jason Bays: um, on the, uh, on the bus, um, as a catalyst to drive, uh, lift operations forward. Um, and then absolutely, uh, we focused on, uh, line management, queuing, um, we set new, in some cases, new queues. We had, um, uh, supervisors, in many cases, out.00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:04.000Jason Bays: um, putting up chairs, um, and, um, and managing the lift line. We added, once we got that right, and we felt like we were in a good spot, and we, you know, look, I think, admittedly, a couple technology hiccups here and there, it was not a perfect, uh.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:17.000Jason Bays: we didn't, like, on opening day, it wasn't perfect, but, uh, we improved, it was a big focus for our team, and I think when we talk about fundamental ski operation, um, if we just were a ski area, we would absolutely be focusing on.00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:36.000Jason Bays: lift queuing, but we have to do that, like, we have to execute that every day because we are a ski area, um, and that's core to our business, and so that's important. Um, then we added, once we got queuing, uh, uh, correct, we added surprise and delights. Lift, uh, chocolate chip cookies were massively popular.00:48:36.000 --> 00:49:04.000Jason Bays: We handed out over 15,000 chocolate chip cookies this winter at the Stevenson lift line. And so, you know, then it becomes fun, right? Then it's the hospitality side of the business of how do we engage with our guests now that we have full chairs going up for the most part off of the Stevenson and the Black Bear and the Sun Bowl. So we hired extra associates to do that, to surprise and delight, to help our guests.00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Cool.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:20.000Jason Bays: The one other thing I would just share is Sunbowl is a great example. How many people get down to the Sunbowl and have never ridden a lift before? And so you need that extra human touch to be able to help. It's not even just putting people in groups of four. It's just helping them with like, here's where you go to load the lift. Here's what you do.00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:33.000Jason Bays: Um, I think that that investment in our people to provide that service to our guests is very well worth it, and it's the difference between someone having a bad experience getting on a lift and never coming back.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:43.000Jason Bays: or having a great experience, feeling well cared for, and wanting to try again. Um, and so that, that, that was, um, you know, I think that's a core, um, focus for us.00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, one of the ways that I can tell the resort is being run by a skier, in addition to all the things you just said, and your passion for the minutiae of things like lift lines, which I share, is that you're cutting 3 new trails in a resort that's 60 years old, and I love that. So, talk us through these trails, Jason. I'll do my best to trace them.00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: on the trail map. I don't have the updated trail map, I don't know if you've created it yet, but talk us through these three trails.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:25.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so we're really excited. Look, this, you know, came after, you know, the so many guests, new guests that visited us at Camelback this past season. We said, you know what, let's do something fun and exciting. And like, you know, you think about how.00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:43.000Jason Bays: Um, yeah, I just, you know, if someone said, anyone puts in a new trail, uh, the skier in me wants to drive to that resort, no matter how big or small, and be like, alright, like, let's do it. Um, and our team feels, uh, you know, much of the same way. So, um, that being said, uh, we had a lot of natural snowfall this year, so…00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:59.000Jason Bays: I was acutely paying attention to where people were skiing when we had natural snowfall, where they wanted to go, and then, you know, maybe following those lines, too, and seeing what the fun was about. So, my point to all of that is, we said, let's create some, and I think for Camelback, too.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:15.000Jason Bays: it's very, um, you know, we wanted to create something that was sort of unique. I didn't want to just put in, like, regular trails that, A, we don't have a lot of space for regular trails, and B, um, we really wanted to create sort of unique experience. So, right underneath Black Bear, um, in between Sullivan and John Bailey there.00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:30.000Jason Bays: um, there's a, um, there's a chute, um, where the old Alpine Slide used to go. Basculus goes back into Rocket, uh, but underneath there is some really fun rolling terrain. Like, it's, it's because the mountain, the, uh, Alpine Slide.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:54.000Jason Bays: back in the day did had several dips and curves and so we're going to lean into those dips and curves and create something sort of fun that you can get some you know launch some airtime off of if you want or carve a turn over it but it'll have some some really nice terrain variation in a way that most trails at Camelback don't have and they're coming off of an expert trail there so.00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:06.000Jason Bays: um, gives, uh, you know, anyone skiing Asp, Hump, Rocket, um, or Basilisk would be able to reach that trail, um, and, uh, and be able to, uh, just have a little bit more excitement on the way back down.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.000Jason Bays: Um…00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:20.000Jason Bays: Upper Cleopatra there, if you go to the, uh, where the U is, uh, or where Upper is, we're gonna cut a trail through the woods there that's going to end up on the bottom of Big Pocono.00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:31.000Jason Bays: Um, so it's gonna go down and across. So, um, that… um, and I see where your cursor is. If you go to the… where it says Upper on Upper Cleopatra.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, like, here? Or…00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, upper…00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:54.000Jason Bays: So, Big Pocono, that's Uncle B. Yeah, right there. Yep, we're going through there. Yeah, so that's gonna be, that's a narrow blue square. So, you know, I think one of the things that's fun for us is we're gonna create a blue square there. That used to be a trail back in the 60s and 70s, fun fact, when Walter Foger was designing Camelback.00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: Upper… oh, this one. Okay, so you're cutting through here?00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool. Okay.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:09.000Jason Bays: Um, that being said, um, the… actually, it got filled in with pine trees, so it's gonna be really cool, because there's pine trees on both sides. Um, we made it narrow, so we kept the pine trees, um, and so that's gonna be a really fun, um, sort of narrow… I think about, like, the, um.00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool. It's pretty.00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:26.000Jason Bays: the ending of Jay Peak with some of the blues at the very bottom there by Interstate. We're trying to sort of have that, obviously in a much smaller zone, have that same effect, though, where you're feeling like you're really in the trees, and you've got some nice twists and turns to it. It's not terribly steep.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:44.000Jason Bays: Um, two things on that trail. One is, it takes traffic off of Honeymoon Lane, which is a main boulevard, it pushes it onto the Sphinx, which has much more trail capacity, which is great, um, comfortable carrying capacity, and secondarily, um, on weekends, we're gonna have a hot chocolate, um, hut that people can ski up to.00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:52.000Jason Bays: Um, and get shots of hot chocolate, um, as well, so we're excited to, um, uh, to offer that to our guests. We think that'll be really fun.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: That was awesome.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:17.000Jason Bays: And then the Stevenson, it's going to drop on the cliffhanger side and drop down that lift line and go right down into the Faroe there and follow that lift line. Vermont skiing in a very short array but very much Vermont skiing, that's an intimidating drop. Stevenson for those that may not be familiar has a extremely.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.000Stuart Winchester: And it.00:53:58.000 --> 00:53:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:34.000Jason Bays: extremely tight, um, and high, uh, crest of the lift, because the mountain crests, um, really steeply. Well, we're gonna ski that, um, and, uh, and make snow on it, and, uh, and, and, uh, and allow our guests to, uh, um, and allow skiers to, uh, to, to, to test, um, you know, a more narrow.00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:44.000Jason Bays: um, uh, trail up there that has a really great expansive view ov

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is made in the USA. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CaberfaeOwned by: The Meyer FamilyYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 2 days, blackouts* Freedom Pass: 3 days, no blackouts Base elevation: 1,076 feetSummit elevation: 1,561 feetVertical drop: 485 feetSkiable Acres: 200Average annual snowfall: 120 inchesLift count: 5 (1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog's inventory of Caberfae's lift fleet)The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO; also since Tim and Pete were on one screen, the transcript does not differentiate between them).Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:40.000Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan's Lower Penins.00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I'm always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000Pete Meyer: Good. We're doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we're feeling.00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim's also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that's…00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there's tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000Pete Meyer: It.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I'm gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it's the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn't built yet. Now that's in place and we'll talk about that in a minute and how that's gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we're getting and why you're building it.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000Pete Meyer: I'm going to start with why, because it's kind of an interesting story, you know.00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.000Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000Pete Meyer: Now we're gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:55.000Pete Meyer: we're going to give them a longer run, and the new part we're giving them is actually the easier half. They're already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it's easier, it's wider, it should be fine.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000Pete Meyer: And that's what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Pete Meyer: is…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000Pete Meyer: They didn't really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I'm only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you're coming into the top, and you… you know, you're above…00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000Pete Meyer: They'd get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000Pete Meyer: say, there's no way I'm gonna go down, you know, I'm not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I'm saying, um…00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don't take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Pete Meyer: And so.00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we're just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Pete Meyer: And…00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He's like, you don't understand. I can't get them ready for East Peak on this.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it's like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn't been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that's the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Pete Meyer: why it's a two-year construction, because there's nothing over there. No services. Um, so we've had… we had to…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You're getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000Pete Meyer: uh, that's just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it's gonna show this, you know, it's gonna take the new skier, um.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that's similar to what we have throughout the area.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it's going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it's all built out, we should have 4 or 5.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren't just…00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn't have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it's just a really neat development. So we think that.00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Pete Meyer: You know, even though it's not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it's going to be really popular.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000Stuart Winchester: I've always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I've always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won't die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: here I'm looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you're putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that's the plan. I mean…00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000Stuart Winchester: So you're affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don't know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don't have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that's a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn't have…00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad's done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they've already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that's why we decided on… on…00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: That's fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it's a riblet, which…00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one's a SeaTac. So, I don't know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I've seen a, there's a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000Stuart Winchester: to show Peter's excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I'm sure you've seen them. So, there's a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: they don't seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that's the artery. I mean, you know, more people.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it's the middle. And so it's you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it's really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn't have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don't know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we don't run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it's a redundant lift, and we don't need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it's not running some of the time.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it's, as there's kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what's the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don't know if that's still a possibility. I don't know if they're still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what's the thought on.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you've skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that's why we call it backcountry, because it's a…00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000Pete Meyer: Because it's a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we're not doing the industry any favors. You know, it's just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000Pete Meyer: chair, and then we'll have all green runs that'll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it'll be a really nice.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it's one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn't always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it's funny, I…00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I'm not sure. I know where you're going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we're not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don't know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren't going to lift serve it.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000Stuart Winchester: Got it.00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you'll let me.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let's do it.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000Pete Meyer: We're talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you're looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, so if you're, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who's never skied before.00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000Pete Meyer: Rental.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it's easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000Pete Meyer: And you're 30, you know, you're 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you're right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it's really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I'm sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you're right there, and you have this real easy area.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you're ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we're in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it's going to work out extremely well.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you're a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Pete Meyer: Yeah.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we've talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn't have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here's the road looping around, here's the parking lot.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000Stuart Winchester: And then here's all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet's right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there's a.00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there's two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It's a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it's going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you'll see that word practice area.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000Pete Meyer: It's a great name for a learn to ski area.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here's another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you're taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000Pete Meyer: Oh, that's more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we're actually off to the left. It's all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it'll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It's gonna be really, it's gonna be really nice.00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don't know if that's on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you're looking at, we do own it.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000Pete Meyer: I think that we don't have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don't want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that's, uh, my…00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that's really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn't as good. So…00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: Or did they?00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that's, uh, that's, that's all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let's talk passes now, and I'm.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I'm just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there's no access, and there's also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000Pete Meyer: So we.00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000Pete Meyer: There's a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we've been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000Pete Meyer: We're going to talk about — I'll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it's important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I'm like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he's like in his raspy voice.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it's like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: I'm sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000Pete Meyer: You know what? That's this.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000Pete Meyer: It wasn't, it was December 5th, 2019.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I'll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don't know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don't even know if you had it going then.00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow, that's cool.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn't in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don't know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you're like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I'm like, this pass is awesome, right? It's great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we're in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn't know it was you until I was digging through the data. I'm like, oh, that's.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that's cool.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000Pete Meyer: That's that's so. So anyways, anyways, we'll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I'm not sure about.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000Stuart Winchester: Love that.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn't going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we'll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We're like, well, let's let's try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don't even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we're happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can't fault him.00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it's just, he, he's, he's done a wonderful job with it. You know, he's obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000Pete Meyer: But he's blown it up. He just had a different mission.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that's 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It's great for them, they get a lot of.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we're seeing, and we're watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there's not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that's ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Pete Meyer: And.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000Pete Meyer: doesn't move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn't, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn't have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric's a stand-up guy. He'll let anybody who…00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they'll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that's nice of him to do. Also, for those.00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He'll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it's a couple of really good things that he's doing there, so we're thankful, thankful for that. But, um.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that's reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you've got time.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let's linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there's another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don't want to overstate it. What's the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: The fact that you're no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we've been getting…00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we've been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let's just… let's just be… let's just be independent and not on any… any, uh…00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there's a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They're not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right. That's right.00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: They're at, like, 9,000 feet.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000Pete Meyer: Then we, um…00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren't in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000Pete Meyer: We want to do what's best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we've been hit as much as the negativity that you've seen online for leaving any pass, we've been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: It's.00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000Pete Meyer: I'm gonna use it. I'm gonna take a trip. And then we've known we've gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it's you're by that 3rd day you're waking up and you're like you can't even move your legs for you know we're so so we think it's a nice.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don't have to get in a plane. So it's.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody's going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn't even the, like Pete said, we're, we do like our independence and, and.00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we're going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it's it's.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000Pete Meyer: It's a it's a great benefit for our core customers.00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that's good for skiers, it's good for.00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we'll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that's what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that's an awesome, awesome deal.00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it's been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you're really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000Pete Meyer: No, you're exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We're trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That's the day everybody wants to ski. So if you're going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that's one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it's risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there's, there's a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek's topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: This one's a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I'm friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn't know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he's tough.01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000Pete Meyer: And.01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don't… I don't know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's great. I haven't talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you're doing great. Pete.01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There's so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let's do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven't been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I'll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn't really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there's some lift ticket deals going on.01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: I'll tell you about the deals first, and then I'll, I'll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we're gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I'd sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They're play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They're doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don't know if that's a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don't think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we're recording this on September 17th.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: But if you're listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It's not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I'm pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it's funny ‘cause they didn't even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen's 80th anniversary.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn't announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it's small, but it's still, it's, it's a place you can go. It's high. There's no snow making. It's all natural snow.01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you're on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they're $74 to $94. It's a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it's $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they'll have open? Probably not a lot.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: I think you're seeing some smart reactions from some of the…01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there's still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one's surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it's clear that their direct compe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast supports bears, quadrangles, and liberal interpretations of The Iliad. Sign up for the free or paid newsletter to get updates on none of these things. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Monday, Sept. 14.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 10th, 2026, and we have some big, big news in Ski World today.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: So one of the things that I focused on since launching the storm in 2019 is the rapid.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: Exponential growth in US based multi mountain ski passes and one of the biggest icon pass today released five new partners for the 2026 to 27 season. So I'm gonna break those down for you.00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: I am going to talk a little bit more about IndyPass and some of their partner shuffles. Then we are going to be joined by IndyPass owner, Eric Mogenson, who will give us a breakdown on all things happening with Indy, Black Mountain, and Entebeni Systems.00:06:46.000 --> 00:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: reader reaction, but I want to jump right into Icon Pass. Icon hits us today with, as I said, 5 new ski areas, 3 are full partners, and those… which means 7 days on the Icon Pass.00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: 5 days on the Icon Base Pass. All 3 are in Asia.00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:13.000Stuart Winchester: The first is Matarau, Japan. That will be ICON's 10th ski resort in Japan.00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:28.000Stuart Winchester: And then, Icon, last year, was the first U.S.-based pass to add a ski area in China, and Icon adds two more today, though they're nowhere near the ski area that it added last year. They are sort of close.00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:47.000Stuart Winchester: to each other. So, we're gonna break those down first, and then ICON added two mountains to its two-day tier, uh, which it calls Bonus Mountains, which ICON insists are not ICON Pass members, uh, but I insist they are, because you can access them with your ICON Pass. Therefore, they are on.00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: the Icon Pass, no matter what Altera tells us. So, let's start with Montreal, Japan, and if you're on…00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.000Stuart Winchester: The…00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: If you're on the video, I'm going to share my screen here because we're going to do a little visual helping.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so let's take this away. All right, so the first one I want to break down.00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.000Stuart Winchester: is…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:26.000Stuart Winchester: Madarao, Japan, and I've actually written about this ski area before, because they were an IndiePass member, and this is the article that I wrote back in 2023, when Madarao joined IndiePass, and Indie's been a big leader in.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: building out a network in Japan. So, the ski resorts in Japan are interesting. I've not skied there, but I've been there in the summer and ridden the lifts around.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is very much like a mix of…00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: The Cottonwoods and New England. And what I mean by that is, if you're looking at the screen here, you can see the stats on Mattarau. 512 inches of average annual snowfall.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:12.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but not a lot of vert, 1,444 feet, and as you can see from the trail map, if you're looking here, it's not a big trail footprint. So, what I mean when I say Cottonwoods is the snowfall, and when I say…00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.000Stuart Winchester: New England, I mean the size. They tend to be not huge vert, sort of compact. If they do have a lot of vert, like the Jacuba Valley ski resorts that are on Vail, they tend to go, uh, kind of straight up and be side by side. You don't have a lot of the mega resorts as you would have.00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:40.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, or especially in Europe. So, it's good that the passes are all building density in Japan, because the ski areas are not…00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: This is not a place that you would go to necessarily.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:02.000Stuart Winchester: like Vail Mountain and spend a week, or like Whistler. Another thing I want to note about Japan, you can see here that Matarau has some glade zones marked. In a lot of cases, skiing off-piste or in the trees, even though that's what Japan is known for, in a lot of cases, my understanding is that that's pretty heavily policed and forbidden.00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: So you really have to research your ski areas before you go over to figure out which ones will actually allow you to go off-piste, which is what most of us want to do, right? If we're coming from North America, we're going there for the big powder. Japan is a little more of an on-piste tradition.00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit more like Europe. So, I…00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:33.000Stuart Winchester: there's… to underscore the scope of what we have now available to us in Japan as U.S.-based pass holders. So, with the addition of Madarao today.00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: Now, 53 ski areas in Japan have joined the Epic, Icon, Indy, or Mountain Collective Passes. And I actually, I want to show you something I have that's really cool. So, I have this gigantic chart, and it's kind of…00:10:49.000 --> 00:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: it's kind of hard to navigate, but I'm slowly making it a little bit better. And so this is a chart that's variously called a bunch of different things. Right now, I'm calling it the Encyclopedia Britannica. Sometimes it's been the Passmaster.00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:17.000Stuart Winchester: 5,000. And I just kind of change the name whenever I want, but the link is always the same. And what I've… it's a really slow Google Sheet, and I definitely need a better platform, but if you go, there's all these tabs.00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: Down at the bottom, and again, this is where it's nice to have the video, so you can see what I'm showing you here. So I have all these tabs. One of the tabs is all MegaPass ski areas. So I have this divided up, and these are just little tables that pivot off the main table, so all the stats are up to date.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000Stuart Winchester: So first, I have this…00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: chart here with all ski areas that are on any U.S.-based pass, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second.00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Then I have…00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:59.000Stuart Winchester: all U.S. ski areas, then I have New England, I have Japan, so let's pause on Japan for a moment. 53 ski areas, 11 Epic, 10 Icon, 32 Indy, 1 Mountain Collective. You can see all the stats down here. Again, not big.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: skiable acre footprints, and really, Japan measures things differently than North America. They tend to measure snowpack rather than inches of snowfall. I did find a good average annual snowfall chart on Powderhounds, which is a great site that I'll talk more about.00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: for international research of ski areas. But if you see these acreage totals, you know, there's really nothing much.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:35.000Stuart Winchester: Here's Niseko United, it's 2,100 acres, that's 5 ski resorts combined, right next to each other. Rasutsu is, uh, is 2,000, but most of these are under…00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: 500, so you really prepare yourself for that. It's one place, I think, Japan, where it would help to get a guide. Everything tends to be pretty cheap once you get on the ground. In Japan, the lift tickets are nothing, so having someone to show you around and show you where you can go under the ropes.00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:57.000Stuart Winchester: is a good idea. And, you know, I want to jump ahead to reader feedback for a moment. So I had…00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: this comment from Allison Wood. She said, I look forward to seeing your future efforts. I know there's enough in American skiing to discuss, but I'd be curious if you would further discuss European Alps destinations. It seems to be growing in popularity due to competitive pricing versus U.S.00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:28.000Stuart Winchester: Western resorts. A week at Big Sky appears to be the same price as a week in Switzerland for those in the Eastern USA. The answer is absolutely yes. I do want to cover the Alps and Japan and all of these international destinations more.00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: I don't have the personal on-the-ground knowledge base with those ski areas that I do with the U.S. ski areas, so I'm reaching out to my contacts in Europe, in Japan, who know these resorts intimately, and I'm gonna bring them on the show to try to help us make sense, because if you go back.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: We go back to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a second.00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.000Stuart Winchester: You'll see that…00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: The, uh… if I can get to it…00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so Japan has 53 ski areas, Canada has another 55, and most of us can sort those out easily enough. The harder ones is Europe. I mean, Europe, there's 61 ski areas, and sometimes a ski area in Europe is, you know.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: 10 ski areas that put together are as big as all the ski areas in Utah. So I really need some help to break those down. But that's the great thing about this new format is that it will allow me to bring in more voices more frequently since there's more frequent shows. All right.00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: Icon also today added two ski areas in China, and the best site to just get the basics of any ski area in the world is, I've found, skiresort.com. They have a profile of every ski area. They tend to keep it up to date. I don't know who runs the site.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: I would like to connect with them at some point, but this is really my go-to for… so this is Betahu, I'm sure I'm pronouncing that wrong, one of the ski areas that ICON added in China, and they have all the basic information, the elevation, which is not high, it's all in meters, obviously, out of the U.S.00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what I really like is the lift breakdown and the trail map. So, the… the thing about the ski areas in China.00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: is just like everything else in China, they're pretty much brand new. I read this really interesting.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: quote in the New York Times several years ago, and the notion.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: was basically China…00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:31.000Stuart Winchester: stayed pretty much in the 19th century for all of the 20th century, and then it got to the 21st century in about 10 years. So, you go there, there's high-speed rail, everything's new, there's new buildings. The ski resorts are new as well, and you can see this in their lift fleet. I mean, this…00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.000Stuart Winchester: You know, they have a…00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: six eight-person gondolas, one six-person gondola, two high-speed six-packs, three high-speed detached quads, no fixed grip lifts at all, and then you take a look at the trail map, and again, this is probably a little more like Japan, where these are.00:15:49.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit smaller ski areas than what we're used to, uh, as far as the Mountain West. But, you know, it's all very well interconnected. I would expect a lot of on-piste skiing. You know, with a… with a immature ski culture, I wouldn't expect a lot of glade stuff.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: to be developed. Kind of talking on my rear end, to be honest, because I've not skied in China or even been to China, but these are my perceptions with the different ski cultures I know. I'll try to track down someone who knows better. Here's the other Icon Pass resort, Lake Songwa Resort, and I want to make…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:30.000Stuart Winchester: that we kind of have an Aspen-Crested Butte situation going on here, so Sangua and, uh, this other one they added, uh…00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:49.000Stuart Winchester: Beidou, there, as you can see on this Google map, they're 24 miles apart in the mountains, but it looks like about a 4-hour drive, so there's not really a road through the city. It's the same kind of deal with Aspen and Crested Butte, where they're pretty close, but it's a long drive around. These are seasonal roads that Google doesn't know about, so it's about a 5-hour drive in the winter.00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: I believe. So…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: We have these, and then, if you want to go to China to experience skiing, Icon gives you the means to do so. And then, Icon added…00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: to their 2-day tier, which again, they're saying is not IconPass. I want to talk about the 2-day tier a little bit in general. So, Icon started this 2-day tier.00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:23.000Stuart Winchester: last year, and I think what they were trying to do is mirror what Vail did.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:37.000Stuart Winchester: with its feeder ski areas and all these little places that are bought all over the country, Mount Brighton in Michigan, and Afton Alps in Minnesota, and Wilmot in Wisconsin, and all the resorts around Cleveland.00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: and you know, Alpine Valley. And then there's the names escaping me. Boston Mills, Brandywine. I just skied there and did a write-up on it. So so yeah, they're.00:17:49.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: Vail bought up all these ski areas. Well, Icon, instead of doing that and buying, has added two days only on the full Icon Pass, which is currently $1,449, uh, two days to 11 different ski areas around the country.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: It's been growing that list. Silver Star was one last year, and it converted to full Icon, but right now, if you're on the screen share, you can see the 11 that are currently on the Icon Pass two-day roster. So we…00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000Stuart Winchester: had today the additions of Cabarfay Peaks in Michigan.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: In Wyoming, we had snowy range. So Caberfay Peaks is actually, it's an awesome ski area. It's one of my favorite ski areas. I grew up about an hour and 15 minutes from there.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000Stuart Winchester: And with Cabot Fay, it…00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:55.000Stuart Winchester: It's a really fun place. They're constantly building it up. And what the cabaret you see today is very different than the cabaret that existed a long time ago. It basically used to be a two mile sprawl of rope tows and starting in the 1980s.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the families that owned it dug up from the bottom here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: and added to the top. So they went from a couple hundred vertical feet to 485 vertical feet, and it continued to…00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:18.000Stuart Winchester: expand, and they have another expansion in the works over here on Green Mountain. Should be coming 27-28, and I'm gonna have Tim and Pete Meyer from Calgary Fay Peaks on next week to talk about that a little more.00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.000Stuart Winchester: And then we have…00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's Snowy Range, Wyoming, and Snowy Range might seem like a little bit of a weird one, but Snowy Range is actually very logical. They've had a long-standing relationship that's in southern Wyoming. It's not, it's only a couple hours from Steamboat. They have a long-standing relationship with Steamboat.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:51.000Stuart Winchester: to a snowy range season pass for 300 and some dollars this year. They changed that to half off in a 3 day icon session pass, which is good at Steamboat and several other mountains. And now, if you have a full icon, you would also get 2 more days at Steamboat.00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, or you would actually get 2 days at Snowy Range.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: if you were, you know, wanted to escape the crowds at Steamboat one day. So, we are gonna…00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Come back to…00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass in a moment. Actually, I have one more IndyPass update, then I'm gonna go to Eric. So, Mission Ridge and Blacktail in Washington have left IndyPass.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Hold on, let me just…00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: So Eric, I'll be right there.00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: We'll get to Mission to Blacktail in a minute. I'm gonna bring Eric in.00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I'm going to stop my screen share.00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Eric?00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000Erik Mogensen: What's up, man?00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: How you doing? Joining us now is the director of IndyPass, the founder of Entebeni Systems, and the operator of Black Mountain, New Hampshire. Eric Mogenson is a good friend of the storm, and he joins us now from where? Where are you, Eric?00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:05.000Erik Mogensen: I am, uh, calling in from Black Mountain, New Hampshire, our new home, and I'm up at the Alpine Cabin.00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:18.000Stuart Winchester: I want to start on the Alpine Cabin. Tell us what the Alpine Cabin was when you arrived at Black Mountain and what it has turned into from what it is and from a revenue standpoint.00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.000Erik Mogensen: Yep.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:34.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, so, um, I spend the first 8 to 10 hours of my day working with our engineering and product teams, and most of it is in front of a computer or on the phone, but by 5 PM I try to be up here on the mountain every.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:52.000Erik Mogensen: night. Like, doing trail work, on the excavator, snowmaking, lift work. But I keep a desk up here in the summer. Couldn't keep a desk here in the winter. Um, but I do keep a desk up here so that when I have an idea, or I want to come write something down, or I want to watch a YouTube video, or do something, this place is super productive for me.00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:11.000Erik Mogensen: It's like my peaceful, happy place in the summer. In the winter, there is nothing peaceful about this place. This, this place rages, uh, European style. So, when we took over Black Mountain, the Alpine cabin, the credit card receipts from the Alpine cabin the year before.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:22.000Erik Mogensen: were $38,000, uh, for the season in sales. Um, and the year after, our first year that we took it over, it was over $300,000.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.000Erik Mogensen: Um, and then our second year, it was over $600,000, and most of that comes down to champagne.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:38.000Erik Mogensen: But don't look at champagne as something you drink. Champagne is something that you use to celebrate. And so I think.00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:50.000Erik Mogensen: The long-winded answer to your question is, is the Alpine cabin is truly a place to celebrate the sport and culture of skiing, and people are definitely holding on to that.00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:03.000Stuart Winchester: It's an amazing space, and if folks aren't familiar with Black Mountain, that's the main double chair to the summit right behind you, and it goes right over the alpine cabin. It's a party scene, and it's a lot of fun.00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Erik Mogensen: Oh, yeah.00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Going from $38,000 to $600,000, 20X in revenue, I mean, Eric, that's the kind of revenue stream that could change the path of a lot of small ski areas. Is that replicable, do you think, at some of these smaller family-owned ski areas around the country that.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: are really tied to old revenue models and just need a little spark.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I don't know if you can scale the champagne necessarily, but you can definitely scale.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:51.000Erik Mogensen: the focus on the culture of skiing. And I think that's really what the independents do so well, is that, you know, the wood fireplaces smell authentic, the people are very authentic, the ski trails are authentic, they're weird, they're quirky, the lifts are slow, right?00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:06.000Erik Mogensen: Those a lot of people look at those things. We've been programed as skiers to see those things as liabilities. They're actually our biggest assets. And so, yeah, the Alpine, you know, the Alpine cabin was a little 200 square foot patrol shack.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000Erik Mogensen: that sold some, you know, beer and hot dogs.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:21.000Erik Mogensen: But we never looked at that as a liability. We never looked at that as, hey, we need to go build a 20,000 square foot mid-mountain lodge, take on a ton of debt.00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:32.000Erik Mogensen: Um, we really looked at it as an opportunity, and I think every single small ski area has that exact same opportunity to focus on the authenticity of the product that they deliver.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:48.000Stuart Winchester: There's been a ripple effect, too. I mean, what can you tell us about skier visits before and after you purchased it? Because Black, for background, for people who are not familiar with Black, the reason you own Black is because they announced they were closing on Facebook. They said, we're done. The skier has been open since 1930, whatever.00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: said, we're done, this was 3 years ago, and you said, no. And you tried to find a buyer, looked for a year, uh, and decided to buy it yourself. So, so…00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You took a dying skier, what did the skier visits revenue look like when you got it, and what do they look like today?00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:15.000Erik Mogensen: It was about $700,000, $750,000 in top line revenue when we bought the whole ski area. Yeah, including the $32,000 in hot dogs and beer at this cabin.00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: That's the whole ski area.00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:27.000Erik Mogensen: Um, so it was the entire ski area. I don't quite know what the skier visits were. Um, we know what the ticketed visits were, but I would guesstimate that the skier visits were somewhere between, you know, 10 and 15,000.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:43.000Erik Mogensen: Um, in our second year, we took it to $2.5 million in top line revenue. Um, we've surpassed $5 million, uh, here in our 25th or 26th month. And skier visits, you know, all in, including employees and the whole thing, right about 55,000.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:48.000Erik Mogensen: So it's been a big turnaround. It's been interesting, learned a lot.00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000Erik Mogensen: And.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000Erik Mogensen: I think this is 100% doable by most of the smallest areas on the planet.00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.000Erik Mogensen: You just have to realize that if you want a different and better result, you have to take different and better action.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, you proved me wrong, because I, you know…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:16.000Stuart Winchester: I thought Black had maybe just had its time, because it's surrounded by two Vail Own Mountains and Cranmore, which is a high-speed lift. Sunday River is right down the road. Uh, you have intense competition from Epic.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: and… and Black Mountain is not an especially snowy mountain, like, say, Smuggler's Notch, we'll talk about in a minute. I… I didn't know if… if it had enough aura.00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: But it seems like you've either tapped the aura or created it, and really turned it around, and really given me a lot of hope that a lot of the ski areas that we see around the country, that…00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:45.000Stuart Winchester: Seem to be up against this modernization curve, they can't quite get ahead, might be able to take other routes to get there.00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:00.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, and I think, too, Stu, it's worth noting, like, yeah, I'm proud of what we've done here, but there's a lot of really good operators out there that have done this, too. You know, having grown up in Buffalo, which I'll call, like, the Eastern Midwest of the Midwest.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000Erik Mogensen: Right? There's really well-managed ski areas that focus on the food and beverage, that focus on the authenticity, um, that drive a ton of other revenue.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:23.000Erik Mogensen: Um, that are creative, uh, in that way, and I think we just have to be accepting of those things. We have to be accepting of them, we have to share what works, uh, share what doesn't work, and collaborate, um.00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:29.000Erik Mogensen: And and then we'll be fine. We'll be fine. These little skier is have a huge advantage.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:39.000Erik Mogensen: in the fact that they are… they are run by authentic and passionate people. That… they… they are… they are run…00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:46.000Erik Mogensen: not as a profit center. Um, and yes, they need to be profitable to be sustainable and have reinvestment, right? But…00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.000Erik Mogensen: These little ski areas have such a remarkable advantage over some of the big areas.00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:57.000Erik Mogensen: and and how they're managed and what their direction looks like. We just have to take advantage of it and talk about it more.00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:06.000Stuart Winchester: this is just the beginning of the story, too. All right, let's switch over to Andy Pass, and, you know, my questions around Black, when you were initially taking it over, were…00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:24.000Stuart Winchester: how many retro ski areas does New England have room for in a market? Like, Mad River Glen has crafted its whole image around being this retro ski area. You know, they groom, they make snow up to 2,000 whatever feet, the single chair is a 1940 whatever, but they rebuilt it in 2007, so…00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.000Stuart Winchester: It is a well-maintained place.00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:42.000Stuart Winchester: as sort of like a museum. It's… it's… it's… the facade is old school, and it skis that way, but really, it's… it's been well tended to. Smuggler's Notch is another one of those that feels like 1960s, around 1960s haul lifts, including.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: One of the longest in the country, the Madonna lift. Uh, and I saw black in that same mold and said, okay, how many of these do we have room for? But Smuggs is, at the end of the day, a awesome ski area, and you added it to IndyPass. I mean, how big of a victory is that for New England skiers?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: to now have Smuggs, Jay, Waterville, all these ski areas on the one pass.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000Erik Mogensen: I mean, look, you've got… you've got Smogs, you've got Jay, you've got Bolton, you've got Cannon, you've got Waterville, um.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:28.000Erik Mogensen: we've really leveled the playing field in the East, and it's exactly what we intend to do in other places of the country, and also around the world. Uh, and I think what we're proving here in New England, there's been a lot of focus with IndyPass in New England over the last two years, and a lot of that has to do.00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:44.000Erik Mogensen: With Black Mountain and our move and our things there. But what we're proving we can do here, we are going to replicate in other markets. There's no question in my mind. And I think what we're going to replicate is the fact that you don't have to be epic. You don't have to be iconic.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.000Erik Mogensen: to be a really stable, well-earning business. You can be part of an independent group.00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:09.000Erik Mogensen: and still push and plow forward, and compete. So, you know, and I… look, I don't judge a ski area by its vertical. Don't judge a ski area by how many high-speed lifts it has. I think that's the mistake that we keep getting pulled into in skiing. And our… it's the mistake that we make as well as operators, and we…00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:16.000Erik Mogensen: we pass that mistake on to the consumers, right? Bigger is not better, it's just bigger.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:33.000Erik Mogensen: Faster is not better. It's just faster, right? More lifts. Sure, that sounds great, but you have to pay for those lifts as well. And so that is going to there's that money doesn't just come from the sky that that money is going to be passed on to the consumer.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:41.000Erik Mogensen: And the more and more we continue to do that, the more and more expensive and exclusive skiing's gonna become. So, again, I'll bring it back to…00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:51.000Erik Mogensen: One of the greatest advantages these places have are being small, are having slow lifts, are being independent, are being authentic. And that's exactly what Smugs is.00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:01.000Stuart Winchester: However, SMUGS also has 2,600 feet of vertical, 1,000 acres of skiing, and 322 inches of average snowfall. The numbers do help.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:08.000Erik Mogensen: They do, but I'll leave the numbers to your spreadsheets that I can barely understand at this point.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: The numbers do help, though, it's offline.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Well, that makes two of us and probably everyone else.00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.000Erik Mogensen: Those will speak for themselves.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so having Jay and Smugs on there is an awesome combo. You know, I think that…00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: Indy and Doug before you, when Doug… I know Doug's still heavily involved, but the founder of the Indy Pass, Doug Fish. I think you have done a great job of building these little nodes of skiing.00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:44.000Stuart Winchester: around the country, and now around the world. So the… the donut hole has always kind of been Colorado, Utah, Tahoe, and that's because that's where Epic and Icon logically went. Those are the three biggest ski markets. But I want to talk a little bit first about the Midwest, where.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:59.000Stuart Winchester: Indy built a really nice network, and you have a lot of ski areas in the Midwest. You have… 37. Uh, you've had some big departures this year. Lutzen, Granite Peak, and Snow River, run by Midwest Family Ski Resorts.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:16.000Stuart Winchester: Went over to Icon, and Lutzen is, for the listeners, biggest ski area in Minnesota. It skis like a New England ski area. Granite Peak, you know, lots of high-speed lifts. Charles Skinner really turned that place from a dump into something nice. And the Snow River's on the come up. It's in a nice snow belt in Michigan.00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, you know, how much…00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000Stuart Winchester: Did you see those as drivers of IndyPass sales in the Midwest? And how concerned, if at all, are you that they departed?00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:41.000Erik Mogensen: Well, look, let's… let's talk… I mean, the moose in the room here is that that… that loss sucks for us. Like, there's no way around it. Um, it… it… it's a bummer. It stings. Uh, I really like Charles Skinner. I really like Charlotte. I think they're both.00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:57.000Erik Mogensen: really great operators. They're very, very smart. They're very, very sharp. We had a we had a great call around when we kind of showed them what the revenue was in their last season, and we talked through it, and very, very amicable. I've always relied. Have some great, you know, dinner conversations with Charles.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:12.000Erik Mogensen: And and I think they're great. They they have to make a move. They made a business decision to go to Icon and Icon makes that very, very, very attractive. You know whether or not that initial sales pitch.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:29.000Erik Mogensen: translates into the long-term vision? I don't know. I firmly believe that, you know, Midwest skiers are some of the most authentic and purposeful, you know, skiers on the continent, and they'll figure it out. I think we have lots of options, there's no question.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:38.000Erik Mogensen: But none of them are going to be quite like those Midwest family resorts. And so we'll have to see what happens. It stings, but I don't.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000Erik Mogensen: What I've really learned about Indy is that.00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.000Erik Mogensen: Our our strength is in the diversity of of.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:56.000Erik Mogensen: the resorts that we've put together. It's not on a… it's not on a single one resort, or a single resort operator. Um, so…00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:01.000Erik Mogensen: I hate losing resorts, but I'm never afraid to lose them and/or replace them if necessary.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: So, when they go to ICON, there's a couple different tiers for ICON. So, Midwest family went to the traditional 7-5 tier of 7 on full ICON, 5 on ICON base. Today.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:19.000Stuart Winchester: I kind of announced that Cabaret, a former IndyPass partner that actually just left Indy, was a founding member in 2019.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:32.000Stuart Winchester: left for Icon. That news just broke. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Buck Hill similarly left Indy for Icon today, a couple of years ago. Is that too new to process, or what are your thoughts on Cabra Fact?00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I think it's exactly the same where, you know, we, we, you know, Cabrifay is a great ski area. Um, we're sad to see them go. We, you know, look, they're independent for a reason. They get to make their choice. They've made their choice. They're going to go to Icon. The consumers can make their choice of where they go and where they want to.00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:05.000Erik Mogensen: they want to spend their time and money. You know, we're going to fight as hard as we can to drive as much value for the operators and the consumers as possible. I can tell you, we had some people that had left for that icon two day product that now want to come back because of the payout.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000Erik Mogensen: Or lack thereof. So, look, none of this is static. One thing I can absolutely guarantee everybody on the pass and everyone listening to this is, is this is going to happen every single year forever. You're going to have people come, you're going to have people go. And we're all going to think it's way more consequential.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:33.000Erik Mogensen: than it actually is. The reality is, is that indie sales for the last 7 seasons continue to go like this, and we're directing more and more.00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:39.000Erik Mogensen: revenue, meaningful revenue to these independent resorts. And that's not going to stop.00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. The, uh… another place you have…00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: Good.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:55.000Stuart Winchester: cluster is the Pacific Northwest. Mission Ridge and Blacktail, which are jointly owned, recently announced that they left, and I reached out.00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: to…00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: COO and GM Matt Neubauer, and I just asked him, you know, what's going on, and this was his email, this is a quote.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge's agreement ran through the end of the 25-26 season, and we declined to seek a new one. Being independent means making the calls we think are right for the mountain long term.00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, that's basically echoing what you just said, the mountains will make the right decision. Uh, Blacktail's situation is different. This is a continuation of the email. Uh, they reached out to establish a new agreement before the old one ended and did not get engagement on it. Indy did reach out after passes, went back on sale September 1st, but by then, Blacktail had moved on.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: and was preparing for the season ahead. So that was the rationale that I have for Matt. He didn't want to talk about it further publicly, but that was his on-the-record statement.00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:59.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I, I, you know, look, Stu, I, I think as good as it is for your ratings, you know, I, we're not gonna hang out every, every scary as, you know, laundry and every single conversation. Um, I would disagree with how that was had. I think, I think one of the greatest things about India is we have.00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:09.000Erik Mogensen: 300-plus resorts around the world. One of the hard things about Indy is that we have 300-plus resorts around the world. It's a lot of contracts to manage, it's a lot of things.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:19.000Erik Mogensen: I could, like, tell you from the ski area operating, um, perspective, like, I feel everything's nice and chill all summer, and we're doing really good, and then all of a sudden it's, you know.00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:35.000Erik Mogensen: September 1st, and it's like, wow, we got a lot to do in the next 60 days before we make snow. And I think every single ski area operator runs through that. Uh, and there's a lot going back. Stu, sometimes I have to go look at your spreadsheets to understand who's on the pass.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:52.000Erik Mogensen: That's why we usually give everything to you ahead of time so that you can, like, count them up and do the math and do everything. So it's hard. But I would say, that team at Blacktail is world class. Jesse is and is incredible. We've I've always had a great relationship with Jesse.00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:08.000Erik Mogensen: We'd welcome them on the pass. I don't think that that's changed. And I think that Blacktail and Mission Ridge are two very different ski areas. And I'm really fascinated and hopeful that they figure out a way.00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.000Erik Mogensen: how to make the whole thing work between the two of them.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you still have a really nice set of resorts out there with White Pass, and 49 Degrees North, and Mount Hood Meadows, and Bluewood, and Brundage, and Tamarack. And Tamarack's interesting, because so Tamarack, and I want to clarify this, I've actually gotten a lot of inquiries about this, people emailing me telling me my charts are wrong.00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which… which happens, you know, they're… they're big and… and, uh, unwieldy, so I get things wrong, but that's… they're always a work in progress. But, uh, they're telling me Tamarack's not in the past because they joined Icon today, which… which obviously they did. Uh…00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000Stuart Winchester: So what's going on with Tamarack? Are they on Indy?00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:59.000Erik Mogensen: Tamarack's on Indy, um, you know, we're excited about Tamarack, we've always been excited about Tamarack. Again, Scott, really great operator, um, super smart guy, great ownership group.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:13.000Erik Mogensen: You know, I think we could probably comment on that a little bit further. But you know my job is not to speak for these resorts, Stu. My my job is to support them, and there's a difference between supporting them and speaking for them.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000Erik Mogensen: So, I'll always support them, and what Tamarack decides to do and where they decide to sit is good, but.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000Erik Mogensen: I'm comfortable saying that Tamarack's on Indy.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, in general, you know, when Buck Hill joined the Icon 2 Day last year, you said adios. I think that's what was my understanding from a distance, correct me if I'm wrong. What was different about the Tamarack situation? Why are you making the exception for Tamarack?00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:52.000Erik Mogensen: Look, I think, look, Icon's aggressive. They're aggressive. They're trying to add as many people as they possibly can to that two-day pass. You know, I think that there's a lot of promises on that, and I think they have a very aggressive sales team.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:08.000Erik Mogensen: Which is which is good. They're they're, you know, trying to replicate what Indy has done. So we'll just have to see what happens. But I would say that I would I would say that, you know, I have a I have a good relationship with a couple people over in that organization.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:15.000Erik Mogensen: And I think they're trying to figure out what they're going to do. But there's no question that we're in, you know, pretty intense competition right now.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's…00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:32.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up on that. Let's talk about Snow King, because the Indy Pass, you know, part of the reason the Indy Pass is able to grow so fast, from my point of view, was Doug had this great insight that the ski areas that Epic and Icon were overlooking.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Did have value collected onto a pass, and when you put them all together as a dynamite product.00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:47.000Stuart Winchester: and now I think, as you said, ICON's going for that, and then you have the Snow Pass, and the Snow Pass, uh…00:40:47.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: has signed Snow King as a partner, and that's a long-time Indy Pass partner, and I can read these emails if you'd like, or you can just talk through it yourself on how you see the Snow King.00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000Stuart Winchester: um…00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.000Stuart Winchester: conflict here.00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, look, I wouldn't really say that there is any controversy here. I think Snow King is staying on Indy. Um, you know, Ryan and I never discussed any sort of litigation, and I connected him directly with you so that he could, you know, explain the situation for himself.00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:36.000Erik Mogensen: Look, again, it's not my job to get out in front and speak for these resorts. These are really great resorts with phenomenal and sophisticated operators, and they can speak for themselves. So, what I can do, Stu, is, you know, say, hey, Ryan.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Erik Mogensen: you know, you're on Indy, and you're not on the snow pass, copy you on that email, and then you can read the email to the group.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the email…00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.000Stuart Winchester: from Ryan said.00:41:51.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Stuart, hi Stuart, this is Ryan Stanley, General Manager of Snow King. That is correct, we're going to remain on the Indy Pass this upcoming season and also offer two free tickets to the Snow Pass holders without receiving compensation, meaning Snow King will not receive compensation.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:16.000Stuart Winchester: We are fairly desperate for some skier visits and are working on an offer for free and or $20 tickets to other pass holders as well. You know, I…00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000Stuart Winchester: Ran this…00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000Stuart Winchester: Snow pass and.00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.000Stuart Winchester: I can read this email from Joe Heschen that he sent me today.00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:33.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, he said, Hi Stuart, I'm a bit confused by how this has become so complex. As stated, we have signed a signed agreement with Snow King.00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: While I would like to keep their details confidential, you are welcome to share ours. Our goal with this is not to profit, but rather to gather a group to work together for the betterment of the industry.00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And then, it sounds like Snow King will be working with Indy and Snow Pass this season, which is great news for them. Thank you. Go Hessian. So, from Snow Pass's point of view, Snow King is still on both passes.00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:16.000Erik Mogensen: I don't know, Stu's starting to sound like a big old, you know, fun high school group text message here. I don't, I, you know, I don't know what to tell you. Um, again, I think Ryan's email's pretty clear. I'm not gonna speak for Ryan, not gonna speak for Joe. Um, they're definitely, you know, Snow King is definitely on the Indy Pass. We're definitely gonna pay them, just like we have.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:21.000Erik Mogensen: every year. We're definitely gonna push a lot of visits to them. Um, you know, I'm not…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Erik Mogensen: entirely sure, uh, beyond that. Uh, and, and, you know, Ryan, again, Ryan's a really smart guy. I've enjoyed talking to him. Um, I've spent a…00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:49.000Erik Mogensen: few, you know, longer phone calls, and he is desperate for skier visits, and I get that. He's a small skier area in the shadow of Jackson Hole, and doesn't have a ton of population to pull from. Most of the population that's coming through is destination visits.00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:57.000Erik Mogensen: And he needs more skier visits. We… we want Snow King to get skier visits. We… we… and if Ryan wants to comp…00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:07.000Erik Mogensen: you know, snow pass holders, or icon pass holders, or epic pass holders, then that's fine. I think that's great. But just because Ryan is going to comp.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Erik Mogensen: the Snow Pass doesn't mean that he's on the Snow Pass, and just because Ryan is going to comp Icon Pass holders, that doesn't mean that he's joined the Icon Pass. Um, all I can come down to, again.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:27.000Erik Mogensen: is that Snow King's on the Indy Pass, um, and from our perspective, they're giving some free tickets to some of the other passes.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:35.000Erik Mogensen: Hopefully, that checks everyone's box for early September ski area drama.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: All right, it is an ongoing story. I just have a lot of conflicting information from…00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:56.000Erik Mogensen: What we should do is just, you know, get Uncle Joe on the call, and get Ryan on the call, and you on the call, and we all talk about it, right? Like, I think it's… I don't think it's that complicated, and frankly, it's not that big of a deal.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:12.000Erik Mogensen: And I question the intentions behind making it a big deal. I think that, you know, Snowpass is definitely looking for us to bite into a controversy, and we're just not going to.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:22.000Erik Mogensen: We're just not going to. We… our job is to focus on the independent resorts and make sure that we drive more visits to more independent resorts.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000Erik Mogensen: more often.00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:31.000Erik Mogensen: It's really simple, you know, and I think, I think in general too, Stu, like, you know.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Do you? Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:46.000Erik Mogensen: What I've gotten from a lot of our operators and partners and people in skiing is they're just very confused by this. And again, it might be good for ratings or listeners, but there is no litigation here.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:56.000Erik Mogensen: there is no problem with Snow King. They're a great, valued partner. You know, this comment, you know, an idea around democratizing skiing, right? Like.00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:08.000Erik Mogensen: you know, let's let every resort build their own reciprocal deal with, you know, Jersey Joe's commission-based software pitch, right? That's cute, that sounds nice, but in practice, IndiePass exists for a reason.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.000Erik Mogensen: It's a lot more work for skier is and most importantly.00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:20.000Erik Mogensen: It's much more fragmented and a confusing product for the consumer. A single pass with a single price point.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000Erik Mogensen: And a lot of partners.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:28.000Erik Mogensen: you know, mitigates the patchwork of one-off deals, and that's the whole reason IndyPass exists.00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:37.000Erik Mogensen: More people skiing more often at independent resorts, right? Like, we redirect tens of millions of dollars a year to independent operators.00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.000Erik Mogensen: Arguing that somehow the absence of the IndyPass is better for the industry is nonsensical at best. It would just give Icon and Epic a more…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.000Erik Mogensen: More opportunity to eat our lunch. So…00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000Erik Mogensen: you know, we can… we can dive into all the muddy details all day long, but I don't see any controversy here. We're super excited to have snowpack… I mean…00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.000Erik Mogensen: Snow King.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.000Erik Mogensen: on the Indy Pass. Um, and, you know, maybe you just have to come up with a different color for it on your spreadsheet, like some sort of gradient between the two. Whatever you want to do, we trust you.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Stuart Winchester: Let me zoom out a little and make this a little more conceptual, because you've told me before that IndyPass doesn't make money, and I believe you're still sticking to Doug's original ratio of 15% for admin, which I doubt covers admin. So 85% traditionally was paid out to the resorts, correct?00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:49.000Erik Mogensen: Correct. Oh, yeah. Still the case. Yeah. No, I mean, look, we, we, you know, 85% of every passport just goes back to the independents. And remember, look, we, we take 100% of our money in on credit cards. We pay the ski resorts in check cash. Right. So we're also eating that credit card fee.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.000Stuart Winchester: Is that still it? Okay.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:59.000Erik Mogensen: So now you're down to, you know, 12% in change. Running a pass like this, it's not profitable. We never looked at this as being profitable.00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:10.000Erik Mogensen: I really bought IndyPass because I knew that Doug was going to exit and needed to exit, and I thought some of the other people that would buy the pass.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Erik Mogensen: would view it more as a media company or a marketing opportunity, and less of something that I think is very important for the independents. So…00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:39.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, you know, Snowpass has committed to giving 80% back, um, to the resorts in their first year, and then something else beyond that, right? And the difference between 80% and 5%, right? You know, it sounds like 5%, but if you actually do the math, that's a 25% difference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:49.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, and so we pay every resort the same percentage back of their, you know, top ticket price. We've always done that, um, so…00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.000Erik Mogensen: That's what we do, that's what we've done, that's what worked, and that's what we.00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: So to zoom out to the conceptual level a little bit here, I want to look at…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Snow King's neighbor, Jackson Hole. Okay, so Jackson Hole is on Icon. They're also on Mountain Collective. You've taken a pretty firm stand that Indy.00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:16.000Stuart Winchester: partners should be exclusive with Indy. If you're looking at a ski area like Snow King that is desperate for.00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: for visits.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: why cut that pathway off? Why is it important to make indie exclusive and not say, okay.00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: case by case, if you're, uh, you know, certain resorts, if we don't have an exclusivity agreement with you, like, maybe you want to give, you know, Brundage a higher payout because they're a destination and… and to be exclusive, but maybe some of these other ones, you give them all the tools in the toolbox. What…00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.000Stuart Winchester: Why is that not an option? Or is it an option?00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I just, I think it complicates things, number one. Number two, I just don't find it very equitable. The great thing about IndyPass, look, I get…00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:58.000Erik Mogensen: There's a lot of conversations all the time when we have a larger resort wanting to join, or has joined, or wants to renew about getting a bigger payout.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:08.000Erik Mogensen: What I can tell you for as long as I own and run IndyPass, I'm going to treat every single resort the same. I'm not going to make special side deals.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:14.000Erik Mogensen: That's just what we're going to do. I think it's a mistake to do that.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:20.000Erik Mogensen: Everyone's going to get the same. Everyone's going to be the same. Everyone's going to get the same percentage payout.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.000Stuart Winchester: It.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.000Erik Mogensen: No special deals.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: So let me wrap on that point. So you added Smugs, your New England network is lights out. You know, like I said, Jay, Smugs, Cannon, Waterville, Saddleback, and a bunch of smaller places, including Black Mountain. Doug was concerned when he started the pass.00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: About dilution in the marketplace, and if you put too many ski areas in a market, you would both cannibalize their season pass, and drive down their yield, or their eventual payout.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: you have filled in a lot more density, and when I've asked you about it in the past, you said that's a data-driven decision, so can you break that down for us, and what gives you confidence that adding smugs is not going to take away from.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.000Stuart Winchester: Fulton Valley, or Jay Peak, or Cannon, or Titus.00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:23.000Erik Mogensen: Well, we know exactly how many pass holders we're adding every single year, right? We, we have a unique control over how many passes we sell, right? So we have, we know the data that comes in on one lever and we 100% control the amount.00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:43.000Erik Mogensen: of passes in that lever that we sell. So it's just simple math, right? It isn't even that complex of a spreadsheet. Uh, you wouldn't even have to have it in a spreadsheet. So we need to add enough customers to make sure that we don't over dilute Bolton's payout or those things. And what's remarkable is the data shows us this is, I think now our fourth season.00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:49.000Erik Mogensen: of owning and operating the IndyPass is that we just keep going in the right direction.00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Erik Mogensen: And that's the reality. Like, JPEAK and Bolton's payout, the check that they get from IndyPass and take to the bank to pay their bills and buy more chairlifts and more snowmaking pipe and pay their employees, is only getting bigger and bigger.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.000Erik Mogensen: With smugs on the pass. And again, I cannot.00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:23.000Erik Mogensen: reiterate enough how sophisticated of an operator these guys are. Like, the DeLauriers are smart. They see the numbers, you know? Christian Knapp at PGRI, he sees the numbers. Steve Wright, these are smart guys. John Schaefer, the…00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:27.000Erik Mogensen: Really smart. You know, if they figure it out.00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.000Erik Mogensen: I think that that itself.00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jay has been, uh, has recommitted to Indy several times, uh, through one-year contracts. All right, Eric, IndyPass is still on sale?00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, 80 Pass is on sale right now, yes. I think what we've announced is we've said tomorrow's the day. I think we could go into midday Saturday. Um, it's… it's hard to tell, right? We look at a couple numbers, we look at people that have put things in their cart, and what the potential conversion rate is, and where things go, and…00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:01.000Erik Mogensen: the geography around them. We definitely have a very firm ceiling on what we're gonna sell.00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:10.000Erik Mogensen: When we're going to sell that through, that's the hard part. But yeah, we've identified that tomorrow's the day.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: And this will be the end of 26-27 IndyPass sales guaranteed, or is there a chance for a flash December sale or something?00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:30.000Erik Mogensen: There is never a guarantee of anything in this thing. We are talking to some pretty major additions as well that I think would be meaningful, and we'll have to decide if that's a this year thing or a next year thing with them.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:46.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, you've already added over 40 new partners. India has more partners than Epic, Icon, Mountain Collective, Snowpass, and Mountain Collective Capital's Powerpass combined around the world. So you're saying we should expect or could expect more partners?00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Erik Mogensen: Alright.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.000Stuart Winchester: In advance of the 26-27 winter?00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:02.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that there will definitely be some more. And I think, Stu, it's actually about 60 new additions. And I know you don't like to count the cross-country ski areas, but we should maybe find a separate tab for them on the spreadsheet.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:12.000Erik Mogensen: Every ski area matters to us here, whether it's cross country or downhill or big or small. I think that's what makes us different.00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I didn't start stop counting them out of malice. I stopped because I couldn't really understand them, and the maps kind of looked like a brain scan, and some would leave, and it was just a lot. I was already trying to track too much.00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: I will take that piece of advice, though, and I will see if I can find a place where they make sense. Eric, really appreciate everything today, appreciate everything you're doing with Indy and Black Mountain, and look forward to catching up with you again really soon.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah. Thanks so much, Stu. Keep those spreadsheets going, dude.00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright.00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.000Stuart Winchester: That's all I do.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I know. See ya.00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000Erik Mogensen: Bye.00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Eric Mogensen, director of IndyPass, owner of Black Mountain, responding to some of the questions.00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: initial conversation I had with Joe Heschen the other day. So, uh, that's great. We have no more clarity on Snow King, and this episode went a little off the rails, because I need to… there's gonna be a lot of experimentation here, guys.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the opening take, I'm realizing, I don't know if I should be recording that before the guest. I think maybe I need to start with the guest, because otherwise, I end up having to cut myself short. So…00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get to some reader reaction.00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000Stuart Winchester: To close us out today.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.000Stuart Winchester: The first comes from…00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: Matt Hart.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: He said, really, this is in reaction to Brian Norton's interview yesterday about Loon Mountain's expansion. Matt Hart, really good, loved Brian's description of the expansion and how they will make it work from an operations point of view.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.000Stuart Winchester: Catcher's mitt for snow, love it.00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: And then, and then Matt asks, did he give you grief for calling the Timbertown expansion that little one LOL? I, no, he didn't, but, but it is, I mean, it was a 30 acre expansion on a huge ski area. So, uh, I don't know, maybe, I think they, uh.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I'm always the tourist, so anytime I'm asking these guys anything, they… I think that it sounds a little ridiculous, because they live it every day of their life. It would be like them asking me a question about my cats, you know, it's something that I'm around every day.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:46.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is a comment from Robert, a paid subscriber, which is the way you can interact with the show is to be a paid subscriber to the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:56:46.000 --> 00:57:00.000Stuart Winchester: Robert says, again, of the Brian Norton pod yesterday, great second effort. Are you planning to stick to a drop time of about 4 p.m. Eastern time? What is your anticipated schedule? Daily, four days a week, three?00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:07.000Stuart Winchester: 4pm drop makes for a nice way to wrap up the day, at least for those in a compatible time zone.00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: And then Brian Bench, paid subscriber, says, ditto on sharing the anticipated schedule. We humans are creatures of habit, and so would be great to know when we can generally expect these to land. Excited for your chat with Eric today. Well…00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000Stuart Winchester: Brian.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have an amazing guest.00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: scheduled for…00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:46.000Stuart Winchester: Sep

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. The only way to interact with the podcast is to upgrade to The Storm's paid tier. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too (I blasted out this post on Smuggs joining Indy Pass this morning). To browse a podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode. The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:56.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to Storm. It is September 9th, 2026 on a Wednesday. I've got a really great show for you today. We are going to visit with Loon President and General Manager, Brian Norton, who has been on the show before.00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:04.000Stuart Winchester: But we are going to have him on to talk about the Blackridge expansion that Loon announced last week.00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:10.000Stuart Winchester: There's actually a couple of expansion items in the news today, and I want to hit on those first before we get to Brian.00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:27.000Stuart Winchester: Altera today confirmed a couple of things we already knew in their 2026 to 27 capital plan. So unlike Vale who tends to release all their lifts and expansions and projects at once, Vale or Altera lets them leak out.00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:41.000Stuart Winchester: and then officially announces them sometime later. So, we had a pretty good idea these were coming. The first one will be up at Mont Tremblant, and Tremblant is…00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: If you've been there, it's…00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:55.000Stuart Winchester: an IntraWest legacy, so it has one of these really nice walkable villages of the sort that I'm always pushing for, and it has really great ski terrain. Busiest… it's…00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:11.000Stuart Winchester: Traditionally, Intrawest had the three busiest ski areas in Canada. They had, uh, Whistler was number one, obviously. Number two was Tremblant, and number three, surprisingly, was Blue Mountain, Ontario, which we covered on in the podcast.00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:14.000Stuart Winchester: Pretty recently, but I want to…00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:19.000Stuart Winchester: show you something here. So this is why it's cool to watch, because you can see…00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:31.000Stuart Winchester: some of these things on YouTube or Substack if you're watching the podcast. So this is Tremblant's timber expansion that they're gonna open for 27 to 28. They're gonna have a new.00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:46.000Stuart Winchester: quad, high-speed quad, coming up to the Timber Summit with 8 new trails over here. Uh, and that's gonna be… let's see, they gave an acreage on that, 62 acres. So sometimes it's hard when you see these things, especially if you don't know the mountain.00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: to really know where it fits in. So this one, here's from the top, you can see the new trails, the timber trails, coming down here off of the new.00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:09.000Stuart Winchester: high-speed quad that'll come out of the Versant-Soleil base. And then here is the existing, if you're watching, here's the existing lift that comes up to the current Tremblant Summit.00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:19.000Stuart Winchester: And you can see that right here. So the new expansion will go bloop right up here, and we'll have some new trails over there. And then Altera also announced.00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:32.000Stuart Winchester: or not really announced, but reconfirmed, that will be when the Club Med is open, so that all-inclusive experience will be there for Tremblant. So, nice expansion coming for Tremblant. Obviously.00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:42.000Stuart Winchester: Altera has had a big expansion ongoing at Deer Valley for years and years. So, Deer Valley, prior to 2023.00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.000Stuart Winchester: was really just Bald Mountain.00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:02.000Stuart Winchester: On over to Empire. Uh, and then here's the front side, and then this little baldy peak was here. But over the past three seasons, they've really blown the place out and added thousands and thousands of acres. Uh, Deer Valley, believe it or not, is now the…00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:18.000Stuart Winchester: Sixth largest ski area in America. And, and they're opening 200 more acres this year. Hale Peak will be another high speed quad. I don't have a vertical on Hale Peak, but they did confirm today that Hale Peak will be.00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: 200 acres, so Deer Valley will now total 4,500 acres. It looks, it sounds pretty big, but right next door to it is Park City, which.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:45.000Stuart Winchester: Combined with the historic canyons is 7,300 acres. That's the largest ski area in the United States. So those are a couple of the expansions that we have coming up. We'll talk about another one in a little bit with Loon. And the reason I wanna talk about expansions with you.00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: Is… is I… I…00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:58.000Stuart Winchester: I write about this over and over again, but sometimes when I write an article, it fritters off into the wilderness, and I'm not able to…00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:12.000Stuart Winchester: it doesn't have the staying power necessarily where people might find it sometime later. So I want to revisit some of these points that I made in the past about expansions and how important they are. So I wrote this article a few years ago.00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: I was looking at…00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:34.000Stuart Winchester: So everyone always gets hung up on this active ski ski areas number. And the NSA has tracked this for years and years. And here's the numbers you can see on the screen if you're watching in 1991 to 92 season.00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: The United States had 546 active ski areas. As of 2023 to 24, it had 486. The number for this season was right around 490.00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.000Stuart Winchester: So, oftentimes.00:06:49.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: We will see articles usually written by folks who are not ski media, just general media, and they'll write about this number and they'll find this statistic and they'll point to the declining number of ski areas and say, skiing is dying. Climate change is killing skiing.00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: But there's actually a much more nuanced story behind that. So I pulled this number last year when I was reading an article from The Motley Fool, which is an investor site that I use. I love The Motley Fool.00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:24.000Stuart Winchester: But it was talking about MTN stock, which a lot of you know is the stock ticker for Vail Resorts.00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:33.000Stuart Winchester: And the Motley Fool article pointed out that in 1992, and this was their bear case, their case against buying MTN stock.00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:44.000Stuart Winchester: During… I'm gonna quote here, the Motley Fool. During the 1992 ski season, there were 546 ski areas operating in the United States, compared to 486 today. This article's from 2025.00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Supply, says the fool, is flat to shrinking. On the demand side, 3 of the top 5 busiest ski seasons on record occurred each of the last 3 years. Demand is up. So, they were trying to make the point that.00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:07.000Stuart Winchester: Vail Resorts had a very valuable commodity, because the number of ski areas was shrinking. I said, wait a second, this doesn't really make sense, because…00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: How are you having so many fewer?00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:25.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas, and so many more skier visits? Well, the answer is pretty simple. We have a lot more ski terrain. In fact, I did an analysis in response to that Fool article.00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: And I found, just examining…00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.000Stuart Winchester: The 11 western ski states.00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: that, minus Alaska, that those 11 states had 54,598 more acres of terrain.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:50.000Stuart Winchester: available at their ski areas, their lift service ski areas, than they had in 1994. So, yes, there are fewer ski areas.00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:00.000Stuart Winchester: now than there were in the early 90s. There were 546 in 92, 486 today, but there's a lot more terrain, and so what ended up happening was.00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:08.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that were successful expanded. It was as simple as that. And when I did this analysis.00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.000Stuart Winchester: I looked at…00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:24.000Stuart Winchester: I looked at 92 ski areas that I had the data for from 1992, and they happen to be some of the biggest ski areas in the West. And I compared their acreage in 1994 according to a guidebook I had from that date that I'd kept.00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: 107,671 acres was the total for these ski areas.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:45.000Stuart Winchester: Fast forward to 2025, when I did this analysis, those same 92 ski areas had grown from 107,671 acres to 159,754 acres.00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:55.000Stuart Winchester: Then I added in a few ski areas that had opened since then, places like Tamarack in Idaho, Blacktail in Montana. There hasn't been a lot, but there's been a few.00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: And then I subtracted the lost ski areas. The biggest of them was Ski Rio in New Mexico. But for the most part, the ski areas that closed were small surface tow operations and they were in the region of a much larger area and most likely failed in large part.00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:29.000Stuart Winchester: Because they couldn't compete with that full service area, which could offer folks not only beginner terrain, but a progression up to more interesting terrain. So, there's a lot more ski terrain than there used to be, and to give you an idea of how much terrain 54,598 acres is.00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:36.000Stuart Winchester: Currently in Colorado, the whole state of Colorado, which has a quarter of the ski terrain in the entire United States.00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:42.000Stuart Winchester: there's 45,552 acres of terrain. So we've added the equivalent of another Colorado.00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.000Stuart Winchester: Now, there's a caveat to that.00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.000Stuart Winchester: The ski industry has been able to grow by expansion.00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:58.000Stuart Winchester: But it hasn't necessarily been able to grow where it needs to grow, and I made another point, a related point, in another recent article that I wrote.00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:11.000Stuart Winchester: for… about the U.S. Forest Service, and how most of the ski areas in the western United States are built on U.S. Forest Service land. They're leased from the U.S. Forest Service under 40-year terms.00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:18.000Stuart Winchester: However, following the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969, those permits.00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: got almost impossible to obtain new permits. The Forest Service had lots and lots of ski areas proposed, but they were all shut down. Everyone except for Beaver Creek and then Blacktail in 1998 were shut down with.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:51.000Stuart Winchester: court challenges that came out of NEPA in 1969. So, while we have more terrain, skiable terrain, than we had in 1994, the reason it often feels as though the mountains are overcrowded and insufficiently distributed.00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:57.000Stuart Winchester: is because they are. Because we've only been able to expand the ski areas where they were.00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: rather than building new ski areas where people move to. Look at snowy regions like Washington and Oregon, some of the snowiest ski areas in the country. A lot of them still don't have snowmaking because they get so much snow there.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:22.000Stuart Winchester: Washington in 1980 had 4.1 million people. Today it has 8.2 million people, double the population, but fewer ski areas and some larger.00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:37.000Stuart Winchester: Stevens Pass has certainly grown, Crystal has grown, Mission Ridge has grown. Oregon, same thing, went from 2.6 million people in 1980 to 4.3 million today, but has fewer ski areas now than it did in the 1980s. So…00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:48.000Stuart Winchester: For better or worse, we are stuck right now with growth through expansion. So, I want to get to an expansion. First, I want to tell you about one of my awesome partners.00:12:48.000 --> 00:13:00.000Stuart Winchester: I've been working with Bonfire Collective for a long time, and if you run a ski area or an outdoor brand, you should consider hooking up with them as well.00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:10.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire Collective is a fractional marketing team that collaborates with ski areas and outdoor brands to give your marketing a fresh perspective and better storytelling.00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:16.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire can help you rethink your approach in ways that can turbocharge your business.00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:31.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire Collective, for example, took on the marketing at one New Hampshire sea area and doubled revenue in just three years. And when the storm was ready to invest in its first ever digital marketing campaign last year, I worked with Bonfire to make it happen.00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:36.000Stuart Winchester: I could not be happier with the results. I think you will love working with them too.00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.000Stuart Winchester: To get started, you will want to talk to Eric over at Bonfire Collective.00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:56.000Stuart Winchester: Eric was a co-founder of Bluebird Backcountry Colorado, the first human powered ski area. He knows the ski business, as many of you know from that episode of the Storm Skiing Podcast that he appeared on last year. Visit bonfirecollective.com or I will be happy.00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:03.000Stuart Winchester: to make that connection for you. Alright, with that, let's go to our guest for today.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:08.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:15.000Stuart Winchester: Here he is, Mr. Brian Norton. Brian, what an awesome background! Where are you at?00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.000brian norton: Uh, I'm in my office, but that's hanging outside my office, so…00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay, cool, I thought maybe you were in the, uh, the kink barn with the, uh…00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.000Stuart Winchester: With that, with the cool groomer behind you.00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:44.000Stuart Winchester: All right, well, let me give you a proper introduction here. Uh, my guest today is president and general manager of Loon Mountain, New Hampshire since 2022. Loon claims New Hampshire's tallest vertical drop at 2,190 feet.00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:58.000Stuart Winchester: served by 13 lifts. Last week, Loon announced the 272-acre Black Ridge expansion that, when added to the resort's existing 403-acre footprint.00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:08.000Stuart Winchester: will make Lune the largest ski area in New Hampshire, and the sixth largest ski area in the eastern United States at 675 acres.00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:23.000Stuart Winchester: He began his Loon career in 2001 as a Lyft attendant, and now he's running the place. He is Brian Norton. Brian, welcome back to the storm. Always good to see what's new at Loon, because there is always something new at Loon. How you doing today, Brian?00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:29.000brian norton: I'm doing awesome. It's sweatshirt weather right now, so we're getting closer.00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Nice. Did you do a snowmaking test yet, or is that Sunday River's ter.00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:38.000brian norton: No, we have not done that yet. Sunday will probably beat us to that one.00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:54.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's talk about Black Ridge. This is really an amazing project, and I've been pretty vocal and frank over the years about what I saw as Loon's biggest shortcoming, which was not enough real expert terrain, and by that I really meant glades, wild terrain.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.000Stuart Winchester: Talk to us about Black Ridge, what it is, and how it's going to change Loon.00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:14.000brian norton: Yeah, I mean, it's a pivotal project for the ski resort. As you mentioned, it's almost doubling the size of the ski resort. For those not familiar with it, it's this kind of secret shoulder glade skiing. It's been there.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:30.000brian norton: It was developed over time by some locals just kind of going out there, you know, maybe not necessarily following the rules, certainly not at our approval, but people have been skiing there. I mean, I think the first time I went skiing over there, I was in college, like 2001, and it was like you had to kind of find your way over there. You had to commit to it.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:42.000brian norton: beautiful, um, beautiful area. It's like a big catcher's mitt off the side of the ski resort that just holds snow really well, and there's a lot of, um, it's a mile and a quarter.00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:51.000brian norton: hike, uh, across a ridgeline. You can actually ski or skate most of it. There's a few sections where you have to, you know, unclick and walk and…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:09.000brian norton: um, you just get this incredible glade scheme that brings you right back to the bottom of North Peak, so it's like this full circle, you're way the heck out there, there's a couple viewpoints where you can stand at this cliff and just look back at the ski resort and look into the town of Lincoln, you're like, whoa, I am way out there, but a completely different view than, you know, most people would.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:23.000brian norton: would ever get to see from Loon. And so, yeah, we've been working on it for a couple years with the Forest Service, trying to, like, wrap that into our special use permit. And, um, yeah, super happy to have that announcement, kind of. Like I said, planning.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:28.000brian norton: For a long time, but awesome to have that hit the newsstands the other day.00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:34.000Stuart Winchester: So help us understand Loon's Forest Service footprint. This is a conversation I'm accustomed to having with.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:53.000Stuart Winchester: your partners who run western ski areas. There's very few, just 7 in New England, that touch Forest Service land. My understanding is that Loon is not entirely on Forest Service land. I believe it's Kissing Cousins Lift. You're riding up, and you see a sign, welcome to the White Mountains National Forest. So, where are those boundaries at?00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000Stuart Winchester: at Loon.00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:05.000brian norton: Yeah, it's really just the bottom. I mean, like, pretty much if you can hit a golf ball there, you're on private land from a base area, hit it up, and then everything above there is forest service land, so…00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.000brian norton: Yeah, it's the top 95% of the skewers work.00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.000Stuart Winchester: So how?00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:16.000Stuart Winchester: Right, so Loon went through quite a process as I remember it back in the 90s to open up South Peak and there was…00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of resistance to that locally, and ultimately, you got it opened.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: was…00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:30.000Stuart Winchester: if you look at Black Ridge, it's… there's no new lift, right? It's essentially…00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Glade thinning. So, so I want to talk about the process for that in a minute, but.00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:45.000Stuart Winchester: What was the process like of working with the Forest Service? Did they seem much more amenable and does the local community seem much more amenable?00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:54.000Stuart Winchester: to this given the small actual environmental impact? And was that a consideration in deciding how to develop this terrain?00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:10.000brian norton: I mean, it was definitely a consideration for us as we think about, you know, growing the ski resort sustainably. I think the, you know, and our partnership with the Forest Service is a really great one. I hear, you know, different stories from around the industry or around the country.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:26.000brian norton: I just can't speak highly enough of our team here and the relationship that we have with them. And, the fact that this was kind of already skiing, the fact that it was super low impact, we weren't ever going to put a lift or a lodge or some sort of, you know, driving snow cats over there. We're not even doing any of that.00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:31.000brian norton: really, so it was a small lift, I think, to bring this kind of.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:43.000brian norton: thing that people were skiing into the permit boundary, which really, you know, there's some work to clean it up and to create slightly better access, mostly for our patrol team to react out there.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.000brian norton: But this is, um…00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000brian norton: It's a small lift to bring our…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.000brian norton: Services, so that we can go, you know, in the past.00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.000brian norton: Someone would get hurt, someone would get lost ‘cause they thought they knew where they were going.00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:14.000brian norton: technically, we're supposed to call fish and game, and they're supposed to go rescue them. A lot of times, we helped with that. So, by bringing this into the permit boundary, we're allowed to help manage it. So, um, this is really a win-win for everyone. It's a win-win for the skiers, it's a win-win for the Forest Service, because now we can actually manage something that wasn'.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:16.000brian norton: That's a great opportunity for us.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's going to be tremendous terrain. You know, another big difference between working in the East and the West is sometimes if you want to open 500 acres of glades in the West, you just drop a rope.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:39.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, in the east, there tends to be a lot of undergrowth. Now, I don't know if that's the case at Loon, because maybe you have some old growth there, where the canopy is, is, has, you know, shut out some of that little stuff.00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:45.000Stuart Winchester: 200 and what is it, 267 acres? That's a lot of acres to clear.00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:55.000Stuart Winchester: What does it look like in there, and what is the… what is the labor lift gonna be like to glade that out and make it so that you don't need 4 feet of snow to ski it?00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:08.000brian norton: Um, we'll talk about snow in a minute, but in terms of glading, you get across the ridgeline, and you get to this… it's not the high point, like, the actual peak of the mountain, but the high point of the ridgeline.00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:23.000brian norton: And you kind of drop in there, and then it just funnels out both directions. And from that point, it's all hardwoods. And it's just… it's really open. You can kind of ski wherever you want. Now, we're gonna manage it slightly better, so there's better waypoint finding, you know, kind of…00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:42.000brian norton: more organized corridors. There's a river, uh, a stream valley that is between what I would call, you know, Black Ridge proper and, like, the North Peak Glades and Walking Boss, um, that you don't want to end up in, so that's kind of the part of the land that, you know, we're going to try to manage away from, and.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:53.000brian norton: kind of cut that, you know, the extent of it, kind of clear those glades a little more, so that it's obvious, like, no, no, no, I want to go this way, or I want to go that way, so you all come back out to the… to.00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.000brian norton: But it's not a heavy lift to cut a lot out there.00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:54.000Stuart Winchester: So I.00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: So as far as snow goes, you mentioned a, a little catcher's mitt and along North Peak, and there are some terrific glades in lower New England. Stratton, I think has really, really excellent glades. Magic Mountain has some excellent glades. They're in a little bit different.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:33.000Stuart Winchester: snow pocket, obviously, than you are, but also farther south. So, so talk to us, you know, Loon averages 160 inches of snow per year, but I don't know where you measure that, and I know that snow stays on different parts of the mountain in different ways, right? Because you can ski in New Hampshire in June on natural snow at Mount Washington and Tucks.00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:34.000Stuart Winchester: But…00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:39.000Stuart Winchester: That's not the case in most places. So, so talk to us about.00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:48.000Stuart Winchester: the snow in that area, and how often you think you'll realistically be able to offer that glade skiing experience in Black Ridge.00:22:48.000 --> 00:23:06.000brian norton: Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna be… it's definitely a different experience, so we're gonna have different, um, opening protocols when that part of the mountain will open versus your traditional glade skiing, so it's gonna be a little more raw, a little more rugged, we're gonna be a little more free with opening it. Um, we're working through those kind of details with our patrol team right now.00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:23.000brian norton: Um, in terms of holding snow, predominant northeast wind here, everything cuts across the ski resort as you're looking at it, right to left, and guess what's far left? This, right? So, um, I'll tell you a funny story. We were walking over there with the Forest Service this.00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.000brian norton: Spring, and we're walking along the ridgeline.00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:38.000brian norton: And we're contemplating, like, how we get snowmobile access out there for our patrol team to, you know, manage this terrain in a reasonable amount of time to, like, respond to an incident. And we get to these two big boulders.00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:47.000brian norton: like, oh man, how are we gonna get a snowmobile through here? Like, it's… we can't get a machine all the way out here to move these boulders, what are we gonna do? And then it, like.00:23:47.000 --> 00:24:06.000brian norton: I don't remember seeing these boulders in the winter. That means there's 4 feet of snow here on this ridgeline, so it's like… it just… it's not the same as the rest of the ski resort when you think about, like, how that pocket holds snow and takes all the wind-deposited snow from the whole area and just stacks up in there, so it was a bit… it was eye-opening for us to be like.00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000brian norton: Wait a minute, we don't see these in the winter, and they're 4-foot boulders, so.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, man, you're really making me want to get back in there. You know, I did not mention in the intro that Loon is owned by Boyne Resorts, one of the 11 ski areas in the Boyne family. And Boyne has done just a tremendous amount of work over the past decade, putting in new lifts and doing expansions.00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.000Stuart Winchester: In fact, I think…00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:42.000Stuart Winchester: the last 5 expansions in New England were all Boyne Mountains. It was Brackett Basin, Burnt Mountain, it was, uh, Merrill Hill at Sunday River, it was the little one you did at Loon the other… the other, uh, couple years ago, and… and.00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:54.000Stuart Winchester: Black Ridge, you know, the one that this most echoes for Sugarloaf fans, and Sugarloaf is far, far, far, far north, but it's worth going to, is… is they opened that several hundred acre.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Stuart Winchester: terrain expansion of Brackett Basin back in 2011. They expanded it with Burnt Ridge a few years later, and it's all natural bladed. How much…00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000Stuart Winchester: Did you…00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:21.000Stuart Winchester: did Loon and the team at Loon use Bracket Basin as an inspiration, either… either to see as, like, a proof of concept this'll work, or… or just to imagine a… a different way of, uh… of expanding the resort without necessarily having to spend.00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:28.000Stuart Winchester: you know, $20 million on a new lift. Just talk about it, if there's any relationship there, or, you know, learning how to manage it, etc.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:51.000brian norton: A lot for me personally, and for the team here. I mean, I'm not the the people that have been out there developing that glade skiing probably aren't necessarily thinking about bracket basin, but 100%. That was the equivalent. That was, you know, I've referred to it through this whole planning process as our version of bracket basin. We've been in communication with the team up there about how they manage it, what their entrance looks like all of those things. So.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.000brian norton: Yeah, it's our version of that, 100%.00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:12.000Stuart Winchester: And just from a liability point of view, it's funny, because I grew up in Michigan, and I've been skiing the Boyne Mountains there since the 90s, and I remember you weren't allowed in the trees, and that was a big no-no. So now here you have, fast forward 30 years, and they're developing these enormous glade skiing pockets, and obviously Jay Peak was a leader.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:17.000Stuart Winchester: our early leader in that, in New England. But what has Boyne learned, do you think.00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:25.000Stuart Winchester: by operating Brackett Basin for the last 15 years, about liability and skiers' abilities to self-manage in terrain like that.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.000brian norton: Yeah, I mean, Sugarloaf, they're Sugarloafers, right? So they're a slightly different clientele than we have here, so I'm sure we'll learn different things. I think the big thing is, you know.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:50.000brian norton: clear messaging, and… and with this project, it's… it's very different. I said it earlier, it's different than the rest of the Glades here, so, um, you gotta know what you're doing, and it's gonna be messaged that way, but it's gonna be managed that way, too, and…00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:06.000brian norton: it's gonna pull people around the resort and move people around to places that, you know, it's a bit of a destination now. Camp 3 in North Peak was already a destination, and now you've got another, you know, 300 acres or so just past there that's serviced by the same portal, so…00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:15.000brian norton: yeah, I think our patrol team's gonna have a little bit of work cut out for them, but frankly, the guys and girls that work for our team that are gonna end up over there, like.00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.000brian norton: They… they're looking forward to that, so…00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, well, let's talk about access a little bit. I'll tell you…00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:39.000Stuart Winchester: That, or the listeners at least, people who haven't been there. So you access this expansion through the North Peak lift. It's a high speed quad built in 2004, 1500 vertical foot, 4,800 foot long. But the view off the top is an absolute showstopper. It's one of the best.00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:49.000Stuart Winchester: in New England. I just love it. Uh, my question for you, Brian, is Flight Path 2030, your… your Loon 2030 plan, essentially 10-year plan, published around 2020.00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:55.000Stuart Winchester: did consider an upgrade for the North Peak lift. Now, it's obviously not a very old lift.00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:10.000Stuart Winchester: But I would imagine that there may be some volume considerations as you look to expand the terrain available off this lift. So, A, am I right in seeing that you will be able to fully lap Black Ridge?00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: on the North Peak lift? And B, do you have thoughts on what might be next for North Peak lift?00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:26.000brian norton: Um, yes, you access it from the top of that lift. The entrance is 150 feet from the top of that lift, maybe, off of Whatcom House.00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:45.000brian norton: the primary exit is slightly lower in elevation than North Peak. You come out onto Brookway Extension there, so if you really wanted to lap it, you'd probably unclick and go down there. More often than not, I think what people will do is they'll ski down Brookway, go up Seven Brothers and a gondola, and get back over there if they want to do it again.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:06.000brian norton: So, yeah, I mean, access is pretty strong. In terms of replacing North Peak, yes, that lift is on our planning process. It's probably equivalent to South Peak on any given day, or Lincoln Express, I should say. On any given day, I flip-flop which one's more important. You know, we did the Timbertown expansion, and we thought, oh, these people are over here.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:22.000brian norton: maybe we should be focused on this lift, and now we're doing this thing over here, or maybe we should be focused on North Peak, and, um, I'll tell you that the RFID data that we, you know, 3, 4 years ago, we put RFID gates at North Peak, remote up mountain, you can't get to it without passing another gate, and everyone was kind of looking at us, like.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.000brian norton: What are you doing that for? Data collection, 100%. The things we've learned about how people use that terrain have…00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:40.000brian norton: driven our snowmaking philosophy, our investment philosophy. Uh, it's… it's last winter that Lyft opened on day one and closed on day 151, I think it was, so it was open every day of the season, so…00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.000brian norton: Maybe today, if you're asking me, that one gets done before Lincoln Express.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.000Stuart Winchester: And are you thinking a six-pack? One of those nice D-lines?00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.000brian norton: Yeah, I'm sure that's what it would be at a minimum, yeah.00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:56.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, do you like the bubbles, like the one you have at CANC and up at Sunday River?00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:17.000brian norton: The bubbles are awesome for all the reasons they're awesome, but there are some hidden challenges with them as well, particularly when they come into the terminal. They're aerodynamic when the chairs are on the line, but when they come into the terminal, if the wind's blowing the wrong way and the bubbles opening and the wind wants to shut it or vice versa.00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:26.000brian norton: Uh, there's a little give and take there. I… we'd probably end up with bubbles, I think, but, um, yeah, there are… it's not all… it's not all easy with them.00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.000Stuart Winchester: That's that.00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:34.000Stuart Winchester: It's Boyne style, right? I was surprised, actually, when I got out to Brighton, and the, uh… their new Sixer, their D-Line out there does not have bubbles. I was like, oh, this.00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.000brian norton: Yep.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:42.000brian norton: Or footrests, or footrests, which is the only one that I think doesn't have footrests, and as a snowboarder, I appreciated that when I rode that.00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:52.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right, right. Yeah, well, the Utah guys don't want to bring the bar down anyway so So, you know, I always think of this expansions like this first, Brian, as a skier.00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Unless as a customer or as someone, you know, doing a business, I'm really curious. Loon has already historically been the busiest skier in New Hampshire and the pub, the skier visits aren't public anymore. But I would imagine that's still the case. It is busy, busy, busy all the time. It is the idea here.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:18.000Stuart Winchester: Is it to bring in more skiers, or is it to create more variety at a mountain that…00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: I really think has traditionally had the reputation as a good intermediates family mountain. To maybe start to nudge that a little bit more toward a…00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: uh, more of a Killington profile, where there's… where there's more than one kind of skier? Like, the whole family can have fun there. So is it… is it more skiers, or more terrain for the same amount of skiers to spread them out better?00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:46.000brian norton: Um, both, and I'll clarify more skiers, because, um.00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:58.000brian norton: as the ski resort develops, and as the town develops, we inch closer to destination ski resort instead of day ski resort. I think we're still a day ski resort, but we're working our way towards destination.00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:18.000brian norton: Um, and as you become a destination, your skier visits spread equally over the 7-day week, right? We're heavily skewed to weekends right now. We're not talking about more skiers on the weekends. We're already managing tickets and limiting sales to keep guest experience where we want it. I think we can have more visits mid-week, or early season, late season.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:33.000brian norton: this will certainly help with that, but on your peak Saturday in January, like, no, we don't… we're… we're not having more skiers here. We're… we're happy with where we're at. Um, in terms of terrain, yeah, I mean, you and I talked about it, I think, the last time we were together talking about glade skiing here.00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:40.000brian norton: We need more of it. Variety of terrain, um, is important, and this is a huge step in the right direction.00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:48.000Stuart Winchester: So I think in New England, when you talk about more skiers, more capacity, reflectively, we think parking, but you have this interesting project going on.00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:05.000Stuart Winchester: Where a pulse gondola is set to leave from near the new Timbertown quad that you put in 2023, go over the river, uh, and land, not exactly in the town of Lincoln, but to service some resorts there. Uh, I thought that project was gonna open.00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: This winter, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen. Tell us about that Pulse Gondola, Brian, what you hope to achieve with it, and kind of where you're at with approvals and permits.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:33.000brian norton: Um, yeah, me too. I was hoping it was gonna open this winter, too. Um, yeah, we've said with that project all along that we're not really in a rush, and we want to do it right. More importantly, we want to get buy-in from all the current stakeholders, and that's where the project, um, lives. It's a really unique thing where.00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:48.000brian norton: you've got three different parties that are involved, two different completely owned land, uh, landowners, plus Loon being the easement and holders on some of that land, and, um, just working with the town currently and trying to.00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:08.000brian norton: none of us have been through this. I can't think of another example where you've got so many different entities trying to get one project approval. I actually have a planning board meeting tonight, and we're on the docket. So if you're if you're not doing anything at 6 o'clock tonight, feel free to join the zoom. Yeah. So we're we're still working on that. We've gotten essentially approval on one side. And now we're working on the loon side.00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:23.000brian norton: our hope is that that project still comes through in the next year. It's unique in the sense that it doesn't need to happen, like, for day one of ski season. It can be built during the ski season, because it's not replacing something, it's a true add to the ski resort, so…00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:38.000brian norton: the Daubmeyer team that would do the lift is kind of excited that, you know, they have a project that they can work on out of cycle, keep their team busy year-round, have the electricians there when they'd otherwise, you know, not be doing anything, because the crew's still standing steel somewhere else, that kind of thing.00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Boyne's had a lot of success doing those sorts of lifts at Big Sky, and it's amazing what.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:59.000Stuart Winchester: Even if it's a low capacity, low use lift, like the one and only gondola or the lift that connects to the montage out there in Big Sky, it really gives the skiers a lot of freedom. And I think it really would make a big difference in being able to connect to the town. So let's talk about a lift.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:01.000Stuart Winchester: That would not be easy.00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:18.000Stuart Winchester: Let's talk about that. Uh, the four passenger gondola you have, I believe it's the last four passenger Gandhi left in the east. It is a monster. This is a 1738 vertical foot lift, 6970.00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:30.000Stuart Winchester: foot long, uh, and recently Loon filed an application with the Forest Service to replace it, so tell us, Brian, what you want to do with the White Mountain Gondola.00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.000brian norton: Yeah, so, um…00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:44.000brian norton: a really cool old lift. You probably know better than me, but one of the oldest detachables in New England. It's one of the highest utilized lifts in Boyne's network.00:35:44.000 --> 00:36:00.000brian norton: around this 10-plus months out of the year, you know, between winter and summer. Uh, two years ago, I got a text message from our lift mechanic showing me the hour meeting that was 8675309. Um, it's nearing… it's nearing 100,000 hours now, so yeah, it's due for replacement.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:10.000brian norton: Um, we filed some paperwork with the Forest Service to get in the queue. We're still working out the details of that project, that's why we haven't really addressed it publicly.00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:23.000brian norton: Try to figure out how it fits, where it goes. It will be a D-line Omega 10, you know, 10-person cabins. Boeing style, as you like to say, you know, we're gonna do it right. It's a pivotal lift for us.00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:29.000brian norton: the main base area that opens first and closes last, and, um, yeah, we want to make sure we do it right. So, we will.00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:48.000Stuart Winchester: One detail I thought was really cool in the permit, Brian, was, and obviously I'm not holding you to this, the permit is, you know, the application is the application, but this notion of moving the load terminal, it gets set 100 feet or 80 feet up the hill, away from the Octagon Lodge, I imagine that opens all kinds of possibilities for you.00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.000Stuart Winchester: Talk about what you have in mind there and how that would change just the whole flow of Loon.00:36:52.000 --> 00:37:02.000brian norton: Yeah, the problem is that the current lift is inside of a building, and the new one, you know, without tearing the building down, is not going to go inside of the same building, so…00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:21.000brian norton: how do we handle that? And, you know, I'd say there's a couple options on the table. Some of them is, you know, partially modifying that building, putting the lift against it, and or the polar opposite of that is just pushing it into the hillside as far as you can, and, um, you know, using the building for something else, which we have some cool ideas for.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:36.000brian norton: Um, this lift is gonna need parking. That's a big space constraint that we don't necessarily have. I mean, those cabins aren't small, and you're talking, you know, another Kank 8 size. Probably not that big, but close to Kank 8 size, you know, parking structure to park all the cabins in, and.00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:42.000brian norton: Is parking at the top? Is parking at the bottom? You know, how do we, uh… how does our… if we put it…00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:57.000brian norton: upslope, not in the building, how does our food and beverage team that uses that as their main, you know, mover up the mountain, get food and everything else up, how do they get their food to the Summit Cafe now in the winter? And so, there's a lot of challenges with that, and that's why we haven't, you know.00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:13.000brian norton: really detailed the project, because we're… I mean, just this morning, I was walking out there, driving stakes in the ground, like, trying to visualize, okay, if we did this, how would it work? How would that work? So, yeah, ongoing, um, super exciting project, and I can't wait till we have that nailed down, and we can really start.00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:15.000brian norton: Showing people what we're doing.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be huge, and maybe quiet at the Peanut Gallery, because I know a big storyline.00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:31.000Stuart Winchester: when the cant gate went in was, why'd they do that before the gondola? And I know there's a lot of reasons for that, but… and I love the cant gate, but I'm sure you heard those same narratives. You know.00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:40.000Stuart Winchester: Out with the old, I guess. Quick note, Brian, the little sister, a 1966 Hall double.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:57.000Stuart Winchester: has taken its last ride. I just made this connection prepping for this podcast. That's actually an original lift from Loon's opening, right? So tell us about Little Sister. It was a small lift, a hall lift, but you took it out this summer. Why was it time to retire Little Sister?00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.000Stuart Winchester: And what are you doing with the lift, the chairs, the pieces, the parts?00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:07.000brian norton: Yeah, so, um, Old Lyft, um, couple things. One…00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.000brian norton: When we installed Seven Brothers.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:21.000brian norton: the skiers really stopped using that lift, because… sorry, when we upgraded Seven Brothers Triple to the Seven Brothers Quad, which was the old Kank Quad and got rebuilt.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:37.000brian norton: the lap time off Seven Brothers was just as quick as Little Sister, but you got more vertical, and we had more uphill PPH. So, um, no one was really using it for skiing. We maintained it for tubing for a while, we got out of the tubing business.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:56.000brian norton: Um, we'll maybe be back in the tubing business in the future, but not in that location. So, um, at the same time, it needed some maintenance work. Our friends at Cypress, one of the other Boyne properties, um, needed some spare parts to one of their lifts. We had them in the drive here at Little Sister, so…00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:13.000brian norton: Um, plus, in a base area that's crammed for space, when that thing eventually, you know, physically moves away, it'll be additional space, it'll open up skiing possibilities, it'll open up more space for our seasonal programs that are in that base area, or that part of the base area over there. Uh, in terms of what we're doing with the lift.00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:30.000brian norton: Um, towers are still standing right now, the terminals are still standing, we'll hopefully get that down next summer. The chairs were all auctioned off recently, we sold a few to employees, like myself, I bought one, I'll have that hanging on my porch at my house.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.000Stuart Winchester: Nice.00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:44.000brian norton: Um, the rest of… I think we sold… there was 20, or there was 31 chairs… 30 or 31 chairs, and um, we sold some to employees. We're keeping 5 for spare parts, maybe future auction-type stuff. The rest of them…00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:50.000brian norton: were auctioned off to the public, and they're benefiting two incredible local charities, one, the Pemi Valley.00:40:51.000 --> 00:41:07.000brian norton: Uh, Upper Pemi Valley Historical Society, um, who's, you know, I saw some really cool historic stuff, check out their Instagram feed, there's some cool stuff about the Riverwalk Gondola, and then they just put a couple posts. Um, and then, uh, Lincoln Friends Iraq, which, you know, one of our purposes is making sure.00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:15.000brian norton: That we're connected to the community and doing everything we can for the youth of the community, and so that's what we're doing with the money, and we're proud to say that.00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:30.000Stuart Winchester: So don't go looking for Little Sister Lift this year. It is gone. That leaves you with one haul lift, a 1968 East Basin. I didn't see a map for that gondola proposal. Brian, is part of that proposal removing that East Basin haul lift?00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.000brian norton: And it's gone.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:39.000brian norton: I started at East Basin and as long as I'm here, East Basin will, you know, I shouldn't say that. And maybe it'll go away, but it's not going away as part of.00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, I love it.00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:55.000Stuart Winchester: Love that. All right, Brian, hey, I really appreciate you joining us today on the New Look Pod. You're my second guest ever, and I really want to make this timely, so the fact that we could talk about this new expansion at Loon is awesome, and I hope I can be up there on opening day.00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.000Stuart Winchester: And I hope that's next winter.00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.000brian norton: Yeah, and I hope to get out there on Black Ridge with you.00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, good luck at your planning board meeting tonight, Brian. Talk to you.00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:05.000brian norton: All right. Thanks, Stuart.00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Thanks so much. Bye.00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:06.000brian norton: Bye.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:17.000Stuart Winchester: That is Brian Norton, President and General Manager of Loon Mountain.00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:25.000Stuart Winchester: Before we move on to the closing segment, I want to tell you about my friends at Profile Search International.00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:31.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing, guys like Brian Norton.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: Managing mountains that are making big moves like Loon. But, what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team? Brian is pretty happily employed.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:46.000Stuart Winchester: I'd like to introduce you to the folks at Profile Search International.00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:59.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search are ski industry talent acquisition experts, and they are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: ProfileSearch has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:14.000Stuart Winchester: and of available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:21.000Stuart Winchester: With offices in the US and Canada, they find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team.00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Stuart Winchester: You can reach out to Profile Search directly at profilesearch.com, or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note, and I will connect you directly with this expert team.00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, I'm really looking forward to this next segment. As promised, I am going to use this segment.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:52.000Stuart Winchester: to read reaction to the previous podcast. I'm not at a point where I can do the podcast live, maybe someday, but right now, we are…00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:08.000Stuart Winchester: Read and react the next day. So, uh, the way that you can interact with the podcast is to make a comment on the article that accompanies this podcast on stormskeeting.com. Only paid subscribers can do that.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:23.000Stuart Winchester: You can upgrade to the paid tier of the storm, which is the very best way to support the product@stormskiing.com. That will get you 100% of the content below the paywall, and it will also allow you to interact with the podcast, but.00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:31.000Stuart Winchester: everyone can listen to the podcast. The podcast has always been for everyone, and my intent is to keep it that way. So…00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:40.000Stuart Winchester: Some reaction to yesterday, and a lot of this is just reacting to… So yesterday, as a reminder, Joe Hessian came on, talked about…00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: The Snow Pass, uh, talked about…00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:51.000Stuart Winchester: Indy Pass and Snow Pass, both claiming Snow King and the confusion around that.00:44:51.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and I talked a little bit about, just in general, uh, the Indy Pass and the fact that smugglers not to join. So…00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:14.000Stuart Winchester: Reading the comments from top to bottom. And again, these are all paid subscribers, so thank you very much, and a lot of these folks I have been in dialogue with for years, so they're not necessarily new to me, but perhaps new to the community.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.000Stuart Winchester: Starting with Peter Schlachtes.00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: So, just under an hour, in the short format?00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:27.000Stuart Winchester: I liked it. I had heard the backstory on Hessian and didn't need to hear it again.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:30.000Stuart Winchester: It focused on the compelling stuff.00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:44.000Stuart Winchester: But remember that your growing audience, I hope, consists over time of more and more people who won't have heard or remember that context and texture and won't necessarily seek it out on an old podcast that features your speaker.00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:59.000Stuart Winchester: By the way, though, you really must make a point of steering people to relevant past podcasts that provide the backstory on guests and mountains you cover in the new format. Mention it, flash it on the screen, put it in a subtext, and leave it there, because people won't know they're interested in learning more until…00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:00.000Stuart Winchester: They are.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, Peter, I appreciate the short comment, and short has never been my…00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:25.000Stuart Winchester: Strength. So expect some experimentation. Uh, expect me to play around with this a little bit. Expect some episodes to be longer than others. I truly will try to get some bite size episodes out there, but I, I find that the podcasts that I listen to that are news focused are usually right around an hour and.00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I don't run out of steam with that, as long as what they're talking about is interesting to me. As far as your point about linking to past podcasts, look.00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.000Stuart Winchester: One of the reasons that…00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:42.000Stuart Winchester: I had to move to a different podcast format.00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.000Stuart Winchester: Was that…00:46:43.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: the old podcast was becoming too laborious, and part of the reason was I was too concerned with building a big story around it, and making sure that everything I mentioned had some context that a reader could go back to. And what that… and it was great, and a lot of people appreciated that, and again, I'll still do some long-form product…00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:17.000Stuart Winchester: Podcasts and I'm still doing plenty of writing, but it actually gummed things up to the point where I was just not making as many podcasts as I should be. So my goal here with the new short format podcast, keep it light, keep it moving.00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:33.000Stuart Winchester: The trend is toward search, right? So with all the AI tools and everything available, it's pretty easy to find my old podcast. I do have a master list that I linked to from the homepage, uh, and, and.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: As much as I agree with you, it would be nice, I think that most people…00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:50.000Stuart Winchester: will just Google Joe Hessian Storm Skiing Podcast, and it will pop right up. But, we'll see how it evolves. Next comment from Mimi Ma, another long-time paid subscriber. Shout out to Mimi.00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:57.000Stuart Winchester: Like the format, especially good that I can skim read if needed, and then jump to the sections of interest. Keep up the good work. I want to make that point.00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:09.000Stuart Winchester: there is a transcript for every single episode. You can click on the transcript, and when you're reading it, you click to any section, and it will go to that section of the podcast, if you're on Substack.00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:22.000Stuart Winchester: If you're on YouTube, you won't have that capability, so you can always check out the video version on Substack. Again, if you're listening via audio on Apple or Spotify or something, you also won't have that. So, go to stormskiing.com to get that capability.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:36.000Stuart Winchester: Comment from Robert. Quote, I think Joe's comment about Eric self-describing himself as the, quote, anti-collaborator, and I'm curious to hear what his, Eric's, answer is.00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:39.000Stuart Winchester: To what is apparently a self-reference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:58.000Stuart Winchester: I don't see how you can't be anti collaborative and run a ski area, not to mention operating what is effectively a business to business service business and to Benny and the need to work with all their customers. What's the business justification for not wanting to collaborate outside the sphere he controls?00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: The ski Cooper thing was a bit different in many ways. Here we're talking about two third party systems meant to drive skier visits, and at least at the moment, given the portfolios, I think it is a relatively small percentage of skiers that are most likely choosing between the snow pass and Indy.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:27.000Stuart Winchester: Most of them, I would assume, are likely NYC Metro-based. Good stuff on the new format. Looking forward to its evolution. Look, Joe was referencing a conversation that he had with Eric. It wasn't…00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: a publicly available conversation, so this is why I'm going to get Eric on the podcast tomorrow, to give his reaction to it. I… you know, Eric, from my point of view.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:55.000Stuart Winchester: Look at the explosive growth of IndiePass under his tenure, right? He's, he purchased the pass, I believe in 2023, and, and I believe the number of partners, and I can double check this, uh, has more than tripled since Eric took it over, and he's really done a phenomenal job.00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: transforming Black Mountain and 10x-ing revenue at a ski area, which is simply unheard of in the ski business, and making it to Benny, which is a platform that people use.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:19.000Stuart Winchester: As with any person doing a lot of things, Eric sometimes runs into controversies, but that's what this podcast.00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:34.000Stuart Winchester: Is here for is to give folks an opportunity to air their sides of the stories. Uh, I have a lot of respect for Joe and for Eric, and I think they're both doing really cool things in the ski industry. So, so we'll, we'll see. We'll see what Eric's.00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:51.000Stuart Winchester: answer is to that. From Scott Abraham, another long-time reader, I presume your hair is still standing out from being present at the Hail Mary. Quack, he's a Ducks fan. Alright, Scott, I'm gonna move right past that one. Eric Morris, great new format. You've written great stuff on walkable ski areas. How did you develop those thoughts?00:50:51.000 --> 00:51:00.000Stuart Winchester: Are you aware of strong towns? Are you aware of the Congress of New Urbanism? Eric, thank you. Yes, that is a running theme.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.000Stuart Winchester: We threw out the storm.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:19.000Stuart Winchester: I'll say this. There's a reason I live in New York City, and it's not because I think it's the greatest place in the world. It's because I value living in a walkable community. I value a pedestrian environment. I like that I don't need to get in my car.00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:26.000Stuart Winchester: Every time I need to go to the grocery store to get a box of pancakes. And New York City offers a really.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:30.000Stuart Winchester: Great environment for that sort of lifestyle.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and when you travel around Europe.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:45.000Stuart Winchester: those sorts of communities are everywhere, including in the ski towns. And our ski areas, being developed post-World War II, were mostly developed as most of America was at the time, which is around the automobile.00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.000Stuart Winchester: I don't think that…00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Stuart Winchester: Car-centric mountain towns are necessarily the best way to evolve our towns into the future. So I think there's a rethinking in order. And yes, I am familiar with the schools of new urbanism and read frequently.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:09.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not claiming these are ideas I'm coming up with mysel

Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment below - I'll respond to some in the next episode. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism./:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:02.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! It is September 8th, 2026, and if you are a Storm regular, you are probably wondering what in the heck is going on here.00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:09.000Stuart Winchester: Today, we are launching an all-new format for the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:22.000Stuart Winchester: It is shorter, it is news-focused, it will be more frequent, and it will publish the same day that I record it in just about every instance.00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.000Stuart Winchester: It's gonna have a lot of different elements. Uh, takes just…00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.000Stuart Winchester: on whatever's happening in the news.00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, let's scrap that and let's start again.00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, starting from the top.00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000Stuart Winchester: 3.00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: Q.00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.000Stuart Winchester: One.00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:59.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 8th, 2026, and I would like to welcome you all to a brand new version of the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, the long-form podcast…00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:09.000Stuart Winchester: has been the default of the Storm Skiing Podcast since I launched in 2019.00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.000Stuart Winchester: Very proud of the Storm Skiing podcast.00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.000Stuart Winchester: We're at episode 227.00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have interviewed the leaders of nearly every large ski area in America, and the leaders of most of the large ski companies in America.00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:29.000Stuart Winchester: But something started to feel a little bit off.00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:35.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I started to think about the kind of podcasts that I consume.00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:44.000Stuart Winchester: And those are mostly, frankly, around Michigan football, uh, which is my other obsession besides ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-s.00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:02.000Stuart Winchester: tend to be much more news-focused. They tend to be much shorter than the Storm Skiing Podcast. They tend to publish the same day that they record them, and they tend to break down current events. For example, I just went to a Michigan football game.00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:21.000Stuart Winchester: on Saturday in Ann Arbor. If you're even remotely a sports fan, you probably saw the controversial ending to that game when Michigan got an extra second added on, and Bryce Underwood, the quarterback, tossed a Hail Mary to win the game when JJ Buchanan, our transfer receiver, came down with the ball.00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:36.000Stuart Winchester: That's never happened in the history of Michigan football, to have a Hail Mary ending that Michigan wins. So, on the way home, it's a 10-hour drive back to New York, my wife and I listened to all the different Michigan podcasts that were breaking down that moment. And I realized that…00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: as much as I like the Storm Skiing Podcast, and as much as a lot of other people like it, I was not really making the kind of podcast that I actually listen to. And that's a problem, because in our current media environment, people have a lot of choice.00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.000Stuart Winchester: They have a lot of of.00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:13.000Stuart Winchester: different things they can give their attention to, and it's hard to get and keep their attention. So, I want to say right off, I am not killing the long-form storm skiing podcast. It will not end with episode 227. In fact, I have about 5 or 6 in the can that I've been sitting on.00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:30.000Stuart Winchester: for this news, and I will release those soon, and my thanks to the folks who participated in those podcasts for their everlasting patience as I got this together. So, I'm still gonna make the Storm Skiing Podcast. The frequency will go from about 45 a year at its peak.00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: It's probably about a dozen a year or so, and sometimes there will just be a time when the long form is the more appropriate form for telling the story of a mountain. If I have someone new on, for example, so for example, I've never had.00:05:47.000 --> 00:06:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the GM or owner of Sierra at Tahoe in California, an important mountain on the podcast. Never had Wolf Creek on the podcast, never had Mount Baker. If I were to get one of those folks, I would want to do a long form, tell the story of the ski area. But it's not always necessary to.00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: Tell the entire story of the ski area and its history and its culture when you just want to talk about a new lift or you just want to talk about the fact that it joined a new pass. So this shorter podcast will be more frequent.00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: It will have different segments, segments with takes when I just talk about what's going on. It will still have interviews, much shorter interviews. Today we have an interview with an awesome guest, Snow Partner CEO Joe Heschen, one of the smartest guys in skiing.00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: But before, Joe and I went on for two hours. This time, we'll be able to condense it down. And then at the end of each episode, my intent.00:06:45.000 --> 00:07:02.000Stuart Winchester: and hope is to have reader interaction, and this will be a feature available only to paid supporters of the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, and you can upgrade to a paid subscription at stormskiing.com anytime. The podcast will be for everyone, as it's always been.00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:18.000Stuart Winchester: But only paid subscribers will be able to interact with the podcast. And the way that they will be able to do that is that they will be able to write a comment on the article that accompanies the newsletter on stormskiing.com.00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: And the next day, I will read some of those comments and react to them as appropriate. And I'll talk a little bit more about that later and why I'm doing it that way. But for now, I want to assure you.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: This podcast is going to come to you the same way your podcasts always have. Now, there is a video version. You can watch that on YouTube, will be our primary channel, as well as Substack, which is where the newsletter is published. There will always, always, always be an audio version.00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: And it will always come to the same places that you have always gotten the podcast. If that's Apple, if that's Spotify, there's some that I don't even know.00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: how the podcast got on there, or why it's on there. There's an RSS feed that spits this out from Substack. That will not change. The storm will be… when you go looking for it, you're going to find the storm.00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: This is something I'm super excited about because I think it will allow me to have a lot more guests a lot more often.00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: there are so many great minds in skiing right now, and I feel like there's a lot of negative sentiment around skiing and the way it's evolving. There's a lot of talk of a duopoly.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.000Stuart Winchester: But from my point of view.00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: there's not a duopoly in a way that is dominating all consumer choice. And the reason I have that point of view is I'm having conversations every single day with smart people.00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:10.000Stuart Winchester: thinking far ahead and doing great things to change skiing in ways that make skiing better, that make skiing access better. People like Joe Hesham, my guest today, people like Eric Mogenson, who runs the Indy Pass, people like John Schaefer, who runs a handful of mountains.00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:28.000Stuart Winchester: in the East, people like Rick Schmitz, who runs three ski areas in the Midwest. Small ski area operators like Tim Meyer at Caber Fay in Michigan, who we'll talk about a little bit later. So, I'm talking to these people all the time, and I'm seeing the independent ski areas are really, for the most part, doing fine. I'm seeing.00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Huge investment. I'm seeing huge innovation and.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: Because of the frequency of the podcast, and because of the laborious nature of turning interviews into written content.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: I don't think that I'm getting that to you in the way that I would like, in, in, in the way that you deserve. I want you to be part of this conversation. I want you to see why I'm so optimistic about skiing right now. I want you to know why I feel that skiing is in its best.00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:05.000Stuart Winchester: place, historically, that it has ever been, at least in America.00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:10.000Stuart Winchester: Now, it certainly has problems, and we will get into those as well.00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: I don't answer to anyone. I don't answer to the operators. I don't have a boss. I answer to my subscribers, and that's it. The only thing I care about is the truth.00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:28.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and my optimism does not come from any desire to have access or anything else. My… my…00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000Stuart Winchester: My content and my commitment to the truth.00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:50.000Stuart Winchester: comes from wanting to deliver a great journalistic product. Uh, and there's gonna be opinion and analysis. You're not always going to agree with what I say, and that's good! I wanna remind people that. That's good. If you agree with everything I say, I have no value. I can tell you that all of my guests.00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.000Stuart Winchester: disagree with things I say, but the reason they keep coming back.00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:03.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I hope they will keep coming back is because I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to work within the bounds of the truth, and I'm not…00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Jumping to these huge accusatory.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:25.000Stuart Winchester: narratives that we see so often with the Mega Passes and with the big consolidators, Vale and Altera. So, I want to give a different perspective, I want to give it more frequently. The newsletter, one more point, the newsletter will stay the same. There will always be written content.00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000Stuart Winchester: I am still a writer with a podcast, not a podcaster with a newsletter, though I kind of have to admit at this point that I am.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: a podcaster, even though that sounds… I don't know, it sounds a little… pretentious, or juvenile, or uh… like I'm…00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:58.000Stuart Winchester: you know, doing this as a side hustle while I drive for Uber, but… but no, this is my full-time job. The Storm is and has been my full-time job for a couple of years. Now, the reason I want to switch to a news-based podcast is for days like today, because today we have.00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000Stuart Winchester: Huge news.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.000Stuart Winchester: One of my favorite ski areas.00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.000Stuart Winchester: One of the best ski areas in the eastern United States.00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, depending on your point of view, maybe one of the best ski areas in the United States.00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:20.000Stuart Winchester: is joining a Malta Mountain Pass for the first time.00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:27.000Stuart Winchester: That is Smuggler's Notch, Vermont. Smuggs is an incredible place.00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:40.000Stuart Winchester: For a lot of reasons. Number one, if you don't live in the East, and you're under the impression that the East is an ice ball, and the vertical drops are short, and the mountains are small.00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:56.000Stuart Winchester: You're wrong. You're just wrong. And there is a snow. There's plenty of big mountains in the east. First of all, there's plenty of good snow pockets in the east. One of the best snow pockets is in northern Vermont, and you have a line of resorts.00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:12.000Stuart Winchester: We call it the spine of the Green Mountains. Starts at Killington Pico, goes up to Sugarbush, which is in Alterra Mountain. Right next door is Mad River Glen, the famous Indy with the single chair. North of that is Bolton Valley, which is on Indy Pass. North of that is Stowe, which is owned by V.00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: On the backside of Stowe is Smuggler's Notch, and then north of that is Jay Peak. Smuggler's Notch joins IndyPass today, and here are the stats.00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:39.000Stuart Winchester: It is a 2610 foot vertical drop that is the fourth tallest in the east. It has one smug says 1060 skiable acres that they claim there's actually more in the woods. If you count the back bowls and some of the secret stashes.00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:54.000Stuart Winchester: Off of the Sterling lift. So that makes it the fourth largest ski area in the east. It is the second snowiest ski area in the east after Jay Peak, which is also an IndyPass partner with 322in of snowfall.00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:10.000Stuart Winchester: On average per winter. Yes, that's a lot. That's those are Vail numbers. Those are Colorado numbers. No, it's not Cottonwoods, but it's deep enough that those ski areas almost always have tree skiing from the beginning.00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:22.000Stuart Winchester: from around Christmas through the end of the season. I've skied Glades at Stowe in April many times. I've done the same at Jay Peak. So, the snow coverage really.00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: comes and it really falls. Mount Mansfield, which is where Stowe is, right next to Smuggs, is the tallest mountain in Vermont, and they have a snow stake there that consistently builds up to around 60 inches or so for the season. So, Smuggs joins Indy Pass.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: today. It is the… and, and, and, and… No Blackouts on Indie Bass Pass, which goes on sale today to the general public, or actually maybe tomorrow it goes on sale, for… $419.00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.000Stuart Winchester: The ND…00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is 469. So I'll give you a few stats here. So Indy with adding smugs, that is the 43rd Alpine lift serve ski area that Indy has added for the 2026 to 2027.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: Winter.00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:30.000Stuart Winchester: That gives them a total. Now, my totals are going to be a little different than Indy's because they're counting cross-country ski areas. And I'm leaving those off. And I also count sometimes two ski areas, as one when they're when they're separate entities. But but they share days.00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy now has 256 ski areas, lift-served alpine downhill ski areas, which get two days each. So they have more than you could possibly use. That includes 148 ski areas in the United States.00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:57.000Stuart Winchester: 32 in Canada, 39 in Europe, and 32 in Japan. You can ski 30% of all ski areas in America on Indy.00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:14.000Stuart Winchester: Now, on the flip side, Indy also had some important losses this winter. They lost, and they're all in the Midwest, and Indy's lost mountains before, and with a roster that big, you're gonna have some turnover. Uh, but the first wave of losses came back.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:24.000Stuart Winchester: in past release season in March, when the three areas owned by Midwest Family Ski Resorts, some of the best operators in the country, uh, they own Lutzen Mountain in Minnesota.00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: one of the largest ski areas in the Midwest, uh, Granite Peak in Wisconsin, which has 3 high-speed lifts, and Snow River, which is really 2 side-by-side ski areas and a nice snow belt in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. They left for Icon Pass.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:53.000Stuart Winchester: Now, there's a little bit of a historical precedent there, because those three ski areas had been on the Max Pass, which had been the immediate predecessor, along with the Rocky Mountain Super Pass, to the Icon Pass. Uh, the…00:16:53.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: Icon Pass, when it debuted in 2018, left off Snow River, Granite Peak, and Lutzen. And I always thought, well, Snow River wasn't a part of Midwest Family at the time, but I always thought that was a mistake. So I'm not surprised to see them go, but those were big drivers of Indy Pass sales.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: Because those are marquee mountains in the Midwest. They also recently lost…00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:34.000Stuart Winchester: Another three mountains run by another great operator in Wisconsin, Little Switzerland, Crystal Ridge, and Nordic Mountain. Now, these are small ski areas. They're feeder ski areas, but they're important ski areas because Rick is a very smart guy. He's very influential.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:50.000Stuart Winchester: And he has a lot of influence in the ski business, including being part of the board of directors of the National Skiers Association. Everyone respects him. They also lost Cabar Fay, one of my favorite mountains in Michigan. It was my pseudo-home mountain when I lived in Michigan as a teenager.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:57.000Stuart Winchester: I have a lot of respect for Tim and Pete Meyer, who run that over there. So, I'll talk a little bit more…00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: about that with Joe, because I think there's going to be some crossover with the snow pass. So, quickly, before we get to our guest, I want to tell you about Profile Search International.00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team?00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let me introduce you to the folks at Profile Search International. They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:48.000Stuart Winchester: They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:18:48.000 --> 00:19:04.000Stuart Winchester: With offices in the US and Canada, Profile Search finds and negotiates with the right leaders for your team. You can reach out to them directly at profilesearch.com or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note and I will connect you directly with their expert team.00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined.00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.000Stuart Winchester: As soon as we get a video.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined today by the founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns and operates the Mountain Creek Outdoor Ski Area and the Big Snow American Dream Indoor Ski Areas in New Jersey. Snow Partners' terrain-based learning program has been used by more than 80 ski resorts worldwide.00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:50.000Stuart Winchester: And the company has rolled out its SnowCloud all-in-one resort management software with at least 15 clients, including Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Last year, the company launched the Snow Triple Play Pass, which was good for 3 days, total across 16 ski areas in eastern North America.00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:01.000Stuart Winchester: Ahead of Winter 2026-27, Triple Play adds 7 additional mountains, for a total of 23, at a price of $179.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: Snow Partners has also launched the Snow Pass, which is loaded with two days each at 14 ski areas for $339.99. My guest to break all this down for us today is a good friend of the Storm Skiing Podcast, Joe Heschen. Joe, welcome back to the storm. Always good to track you down.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:18.000Joe Hession: Thanks.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.000Stuart Winchester: How are you feeling on Snow Pass launch day?00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:36.000Joe Hession: You know, it's launch day for Snow Pass. It's launch day for Mountain Creek Seasons Passes. So winter's in the air. Things are happening. It's really exciting. This is probably my favorite time of year. So thanks for having me on such a special day. Winter's coming.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: I'll do it.00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and it's the first day of the new platform for the Storm. So I wanted to get you on first. I'll admit, I want to do a little bit of a flex because I know you're a hard guy to track down and you're doing a lot of cool, interesting things. I want to start with the Snowpass, Joe, because you came on the podcast last year to talk about Snow Triple Play.00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.000Stuart Winchester: And your launch, and you were pretty…00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:09.000Stuart Winchester: adamant, you know, this is not a pass. I don't want to do a pass. And, you know, we talked about it a lot, and I probably harassed you about it a little bit, and now we have a pass!00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:17.000Stuart Winchester: So, so tell us about that journey. How did, how did we get from TriplePlay to SnowPass, and, and why do you have the two different products?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah. And, and, you know, you might be very responsible for it because you, you pushed it early on of, you know, why, why would this not be a pass? And, you know, originally we were really following the data and the data we were really focused on was 73% of people ski between one and five days.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:50.000Joe Hession: the price point for that, and we were looking at the data for Mountain Creek with our triple play, and saying, you know, there's really not a lot of triple plays for multi-resort. That's kind of a cool, unique concept. So we were really stuck on the data. Obviously, we heard feedback from folks like yourself, and also your other… all your listeners and subscribers, and…00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:50.000 --> 00:22:05.000Joe Hession: And… but then, it was really our past partners. The people that bought the Triple Play were like, if we had this option, we'd be really happy. They hit us that in our post-survey, they said, we really would like this. Um, and then the resorts. We had great partners on the Triple Play program, and…00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:13.000Joe Hession: they came in and said, we would like this as well. So, you know, the model's been done, and we made the leap to do it. So we're really excited about it.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:28.000Stuart Winchester: You have a great network to launch, and I think especially if you live in New York Metro, and I want to talk about — I do want to talk about Triple Play, but let's focus on Snowpass for a minute. The three key mountains here are Bel Air, Gore, and Whiteface.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:43.000Stuart Winchester: These mountains, for those of us who are in the area, we know they're state subsidized. They've gotten a half billion dollars in investment. That's a whole different subject. We're going to leave that alone because the result of that for your pass holders is these are awesome ski areas. Bel Air is essentially a brand new ski area.00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000Stuart Winchester: And if you're in New York Metro, you get two days at Mountain Creek, and you get two days at Big Snow, then there's some little ones. You get up in Connecticut, you have Mount Southington. So you have a really nice network of.00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:10.000Stuart Winchester: 14 ski areas, 12 of them are in the east. Talk about that network, Joe, and how deliberate it was that they kind of worked together to create a compelling pass product.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:27.000Joe Hession: Yeah, that's a great question because that is, you know, we probably look at the world a little differently than people looking at different passes and different programs. And I think you nailed it. Like, you know, with the news last week, you know, sometimes people from Colorado chirp and they, this pass doesn't make sense for me. I'm like, yeah.00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:44.000Joe Hession: Yeah, congratulations. You can read and understand basic logic. So we love our friends in Colorado, we love our friends out west, but this is a pass that's very regional. It makes so much sense if you live in this area and you're planning to have those trips and, and, and you might remember this, but years ago.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:23:44.000 --> 00:24:00.000Joe Hession: at the NSA show, which is the National Ski Association. I was on stage with a bunch of different groups, talking about Epic Pass and ICOM Pass, and this is before we had a Pass product. And I was saying, and I was a little critical too.00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:18.000Joe Hession: you know, listen, I think the high-level past products that exist, which just throw out big numbers, like, you know, 40 of these resorts, these resorts, or 300 resorts, like, it's cool, but the reality is, is I'm really focused on how does someone actually use it? So if we go back to the skier.00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:35.000Joe Hession: and the snowboarder, and how do they actually use this pass? And, you know, back in the day, and I love, you know, the industry is much smaller than people, especially your listeners might realize, like, I have a ton of respect for almost everybody. If anyone's in this business, I respect them, because it's a really hard business.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:51.000Joe Hession: And so for us, I've always looked at it and said these big pass products that are kind of like overwhelming with the options, like how do people actually use them and where does it drive traffic and traffic to the right places at the right time and stuff like that. So we're very deliberate.00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:02.000Joe Hession: very deliberate in, if you live in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Long Island, um, upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania, this is a very compelling pass that not only takes you from the city.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:18.000Joe Hession: Because for us, what's really critical is that kind of warm handshake from, we're teaching a hundred thousand new people a year to ski at Big Snow. Where do they then go to? And obviously we want them to come to Mountain Creek, but I also want them to go to Whiteface and Bel Air and Gore and Platic Hill.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:34.000Joe Hession: Um, because things like that, that's kind of how this industry can work together to take people who are new to the sport, or people who are, maybe have never gone. Maybe they always go to Vermont, and we love Vermont, but maybe this is their chance to go up to Whiteface and realize, oh, wow.00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.000Joe Hession: That's, you know, you can see JP from there, right? So it's kind of it's people don't realize how far north Whiteface is.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a really nice network, and I think it's gonna sell really well. I mean, just even if… even if you just launched.00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: a Bel Air Gore Whiteface pass at that price point, I think it would probably sell really well. Uh, but the reality is you're going up against a very competitive market. So, uh, you look at Epic Pass, not maybe so competitive, you're doing something different, they don't have as many mountains in the market. Indy Pass.00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not even sure if you know this yet, because the embargo literally lifted when we started this at 10 a.m. eastern. A smuggler's notch today announced they are joining the Indy Pass. So the Indy Pass gives you a really nice network of resorts in your neighborhood.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: In New England, it has Waterville Valley, Cannon, Jay Peak, Saddleback, and now Smug, some of the best ski areas in the region. It has ski areas all over New York. That goes on sale to the public.00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:50.000Stuart Winchester: Today or tomorrow, the Indy Pass, they do a fall sale for $419. They have 256 alpine ski areas as of today, including 61 in the western US. They have a big head start, right? They started in 2019, so.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: you're offering a different product, but it works in the same way, right? SnowPass. Uh, little lower price point, $340 as opposed to $419. What's your pitch for someone considering SnowPass or IndyPass?00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:20.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, well, well, first let me hit that because it's, it's, what's interesting is, and, and it's important to kind of explain our background and where we come from. I probably see the world differently than almost everyone involved in this past world. I, I kind of look at it as.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:35.000Joe Hession: you know, the pitch is, if you live in this area and you want to visit the resorts on our pass, it's a no-brainer. Not only that, I don't think we're going to live in a world where there's Epic, Icon, Indy, Snow Pass, Mountain Collective.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:53.000Joe Hession: I think we should be trying to live in a world where we democratize skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and allow them to make choices in their price points where they want to go, vastly different than it is today. I think these programs, um, really exist because lack of good technology.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:08.000Joe Hession: Like, like, basically, we would have reciprocal programs back years ago with, uh, like, Mound Creek and Killington. And to get that to actually make sense to the guests, where they show up, and it's seamless, and the money's able to be traded the right way, wasn't possible years ago.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:24.000Joe Hession: So, for us, you know, and I'll get to the question of what the pitch directly to Indy, but I see the world so dramatically different than IndyPass. I see a world where independent ski resorts should be working with each other.00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:43.000Joe Hession: for the betterment of their guests to share people to different locations that people find interesting. A real-life example is Martok in Nova Scotia and Cape Smoky have a reciprocal program that they're actually allowed to have… they have one pass that's able to work at both places and can split the revenue and funding between it.00:28:43.000 --> 00:29:00.000Joe Hession: between them. They have common ownership. But they're both on SnowCloud. So really, you know, our software platform, SnowCloud, which really operates all the things that is involved with Snowpass and Snow TriplePlay, our real pitch long-term, our real pitch of what we're trying to do with Snowpass.00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Joe Hession: is open up the door to give resort leaders and operators tools where they take out the middleman. And what I mean by the middleman is Wachusett and a resort up in Vermont doesn't need a third party to organize their pass benefits.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Joe Hession: They should be doing it directly themselves, using better technology. So, I am calling for a shift, a big shift, in the way that people think of this, of, let's get away from these big, pillar, clunky things that are these big, like.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:46.000Joe Hession: big, like, kind of ego plays of passes, and let's take skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and let them have direct relationships with the resorts they love, and give these operators great tools to allow that to happen.00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.000Joe Hession: Um, so that that's our long term pitch. Yeah.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:56.000Stuart Winchester: So let me jump in there. I just want to ask now, I want to follow up on that. So are you saying this snow pass, your goal is to…00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.000Stuart Winchester: make it extinct at some point? It's a building block to the next level, is that what you're saying?00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000Joe Hession: You…00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah, what's interesting is Snowpass, we have no upside in Snowpass. So we've been very open and clear about this. And I just want to make sure the goal of Snowpass is secure. We share all of our books openly with all of our resort partners. They can see every transaction, every dollar flow.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:33.000Joe Hession: There's overhead in some of the expenses. They get a clear, like, this is the piece that we do that. We originally said it was estimated at 5%. If it ends up becoming 3%, we'll distribute the rest of that to the resorts. We have no profit margin built into our plan for Snowpass.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:43.000Joe Hession: Snowpass to us is the first step in trying to prove the theory of could we remove the middleman from the equation?00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:58.000Joe Hession: And we applaud the idea that if you're on Snowpass, and let's say that Whiteface wants to now work with Platykill directly, we would celebrate that and see that as a huge win.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Joe Hession: Because we want resorts to collaborate. If people are real fans of skiing and snowboarding, and they've been buying passes for years, and part of it, they know that the beauty of the ski industry is when the ski industry, skiers, snowboarders, the people that operate these resorts, work together.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:26.000Joe Hession: they create beautiful things. So we need to give them tools to work together, and also the ability to work together, because some companies restrict people from being able to work with each other, which goes against the spirit of the whole ski industry in the first place.00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.000Stuart Winchester: So if you were… So let's think of… Let's do a thought experiment here. So let's take some…00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:32.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: some resorts that share your operating software, right? So you have Mountain Creek, so you can do whatever you want with it, and you have big snow. I know that, for example, Greek Peak up in upstate New York uses, it's up near Cornell, sort of central New York for folks who aren't familiar. It would be a great feeder from Mountain Creek because it has.00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: a resort feel, and it's a big mountain, and it has a nice hotel across the street with a water park and everything. So you have, uh, Greek Beak, and then you signed Jackson Hole, right? So would an example be that if you were a…00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek Passholder, you could somehow…00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek could sign a deal with Greek Peak for shorter-term visits and Jackson Hole for longer-term. Is that the goal, and how would that be different from a pass we have now?00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:40.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, yeah, well, because it could be priced exactly to the price, it would make sense to the consumer. Because right now, and remember, when people buy an IndiePass or a pass like that, there's an idea that all these resorts, like, I'm a big fan of IndiePass.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:57.000Joe Hession: Pareto charts, the 80/20 rule. I will guess, not knowing anything about their business, that 80% of the revenue is made up of 20% of the resorts and the visits. I will almost guarantee it because that's how statistics works. So when you have huge numbers, it starts to cloud the efficiency of it, right?00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:17.000Joe Hession: So to me, I look at and say, yeah, so a program where it's like if Mountain Creek went to Greek Peak and said, we want to have a reciprocal program where if someone uses this, it seamlessly just works at the lift. So imagine someone took their Mountain Creek pass, went and rode the lift at Greek Peak and boom, the transaction happened. The guests never even knew it happened.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:32.000Joe Hession: the business relationship worked, and then we shared data to basically say, oh, this is a Mountain Creek and Greek Peak guest. Now you guys can market directly to them and hopefully get them to come for a longer stay next time. That's where I… that's where I would love to have it, and Greek Peak's a great example.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:40.000Joe Hession: We're great partners with them. We love that resort. They've been great early adopters of SnowCloud. We're not allowed to have a reciprocal program with them at Mountain Creek or Big.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:58.000Joe Hession: They're, they're contractly obligated not to work with anyone other than who they work with, which is, which to me is just wild. And I think most people don't realize that that's how it works. And, you know, the last thing we need is, is the middleman kind of inserting themselves into controlling how people operate. It's just.00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:10.000Joe Hession: So… so I would love… I see a future like that. Currently, unfortunately, with a place like Repeat, we're not allowed to work with them. We're… we're… and… and I mean not on Snowpass. We can't have a reciprocal…00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:16.000Joe Hession: We can't give someone a discount if they're a Mountain Creek holder to go to Greek Peak. It's.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and great.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Joe Hession: Less rules. We need less rules.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Greek Peak has worked with IndiePass since 2019. They've been an original partner over there. I want to get to that in a second. You know, I…00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know if I see a post-pass world, because I like a menu, I like the big passes. However, what I think you're describing could solve is the free visit problem.00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: because I know Indian Ski Cooper, for example, had a dust-up a few years ago because Ski Cooper was essentially… India accused him of essentially creating a national pass, and that was probably my fault because I wrote an article that said, hey, look at this secret national pass for 300 bucks in Colorado. Nonetheless, it's a lot of…00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:19.000Stuart Winchester: Free visits and you have mountains like Bogus Basin in, in Idaho that are still giving away a lot of free visits. Now, Bogus is a great business and, and it's doing well and they have a surplus and, and they've evolved great in the past decade or so. Uh, but, but it seems like that could really solve that.00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: free visits problem, where there is some revenue sharing. Is that part of what you're trying to solve here?00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:41.000Joe Hession: 100%. And you see the big players do it, right? Like a big thing about us too is I'm not against anything. I think Indie is fantastic. And it's very important to point this out. I think that is, but I also think Epic and Icon are great.00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Joe Hession: Like, I'll put it this way, operating a small resort here in New Jersey, Mountain Creek, or Big Snow, there are things that Vail does so much better than us that we wish we had the resources they have. Now, with that said, we do things way better than Vail does, and they wish they had the resources.00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:14.000Joe Hession: Or the ability to do what we can do, right? And, you know, there's an old commercial years ago that there was, like, a big boardroom, and the boardroom, they're like, I wonder what the little guys are doing. And then all of a sudden, it showed the people in, like, the startup, and they're like, I wonder what the big guys are doing. So, we're all in the same business, and we're.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:32.000Joe Hession: some of the things they've done to try to cure their own things. They own most of their resorts on their program, so they're gonna do things the way that benefits them, because they own all those resorts together. And they've tried to solve these problems in similar ways, and I think learning from them on that stuff, same thing with Icon is doing similar stuff to that.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.000Joe Hession: Um, but yeah, I think…00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:44.000Joe Hession: that's exactly what we're trying to solve. We're trying to solve… we want resorts to have relationships that make sense to the consumer. Like, for example.00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:00.000Joe Hession: Who is going to go, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll focus on someone else for a minute. Who's gonna, who's gonna go to 40 resorts in a year on a certain pass? Nobody. Nobody. Skiers are smarter than that. No one's doing that. What they're doing, if you buy an Epic or Icon.00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:08.000Joe Hession: in the real world, the conversation goes, um, oh, I live in New York? Great. What pass are my friends buying?00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:24.000Joe Hession: Because where are they going to go this year? Where do we want to take our family trip? Oh, and it just happened. My wife and I, our family, we have a place in Snowmass. So every year, we have some friends who are like, I want to come out to Snowmass. Well, they buy an IconPass. Their decision is made based on, oh.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:43.000Joe Hession: your condo's available, I can go, I'm gonna lock in an Icon Pass. That's how consumers actually work. So, to me, it's like, I agree with you, I love the big passes, I don't think they should go away. I think there's a great place for India, I think there's a great place for Icon, I think there's a great place for Epic Pass. There might be a great place for Snowpass.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:59.000Joe Hession: But I also get really excited about other options. And I feel like we're at this disruptive time where we're seeing the results of these passes and kind of the rubs that are rubbing people the wrong way. And I think it might be time with technology that we can kind of.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:06.000Joe Hession: take it to the next level. Like, you know, we're talking about the evolution of, you know, major.00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:21.000Joe Hession: uh, success has been done, and there's been some learnings, right? Like… like, the pictures of the long lines and stuff, uh, that we see every holiday or powder day, like, is a result of the PASS program. It's a result of this, it's an output of that, and I think there's ways we can maybe.00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:37.000Joe Hession: Make it better where the skier gets a better choice, a better experience, and then the resorts get to share in different ways. So really, at the end of the day, I think it's a technology driven way to better collaborate for the betterment of the ski experience to democratize.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.000Joe Hession: It's kind of the price and take out the middleman is really, is really my pitch.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.000Stuart Winchester: So, Joy, I appreciate…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.000Joe Hession: I'd like to remove myself from the equation eventually.00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:01.000Stuart Winchester: You know, the problem with you removing yourself from the equation, Joe, is that everyone I talk to really likes working with Snow Partners, your team. They like the train-based learning, they like your operating software.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: And I appreciate that spirit of Bonhomie, and you're right, the ski industry is small, and it was smaller than I would have imagined, and it was more welcoming than I would have imagined. I'm not sure if you read the lawsuit.00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: The most recent one filed against Veil Altera, Boyne Powder, the National Skier Association and and RRC. And it's built.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: the case for the lawsuit is built on accusations of collusion. Using a lot of.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:50.000Stuart Winchester: kind of fluffy evidence of people getting together at NSAA shows and basically sharing data and sharing best practices. I think all industries do this. Now, I'm going somewhere with this.00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: I appreciate that, and I think IndyPass, a lot of people love working with them. However, maybe a little more conflict would be good for the ski industry, because one thing I've seen as I've been reading old newspaper clippings is ski operators used to talk a lot more junk to each other, like, oh, Summit County, Colorado does.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: more skier visits to the whole state of Utah. Obviously, those days are over, but there used to be a little more smack talk. So let me get into a little controversy here, and you can address this as you want.00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: As you said, Indy Pass does not share. You have been willing to share and and the snow triple or snow pass shares two mountains, Bromance in Quebec and Whiteface with Mountain Collective and three.00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Butternut, Jiminy Peak, and Cranmore with the Icon today. You and Indy are both claiming Snow King, you're both telling me it's locked in, uh, and…00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Indy's telling me it's only gonna be on Indy, so… there's a little conflict for ya. Uh, how are you approaching that, and what do you think about the scenario?00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.000Joe Hession: Yeah, yeah.00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so we're talking about Snow King specifically?00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, Snow King specifically.00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so specifically Snow King, we have a signed agreement with Snow King. We're very excited to work with Snow King.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:23.000Joe Hession: Uh, Snow King would love to have visits, uh, come from us, and they are on our website, and we launched with Snow King. Um, that's where we're at. Um, you know, as far as what's going on with them in Indy.00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:39.000Joe Hession: Um, I'll kind of let them speak to that to themselves, but from what I understand, which I'll take some liberties and say what I think is going on, is there is a clause in an IndyPass that if someone leaves the IndyPass program.00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:55.000Joe Hession: They have to not work with anyone for another year. And it's kind of buried in the fine details. So I think what happened is I think they were off that pass, planned to be off that pass, maybe wasn't familiar with that clause, and then signed an agreement with us.00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:10.000Joe Hession: So for me, so the big question is, hey, so here's the choices as we sit today. We have a signed agreement. We've told Snow King, if this is going to hurt you, we never want to hurt you. So we are 100% willing to do whatever that takes.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Joe Hession: to do it.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:17.000Joe Hession: But, you know, we're not gonna just, like, bow down, because at the end of the day.00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:31.000Joe Hession: It's also on Indy, and maybe they… maybe they signed an agreement that wasn't… that was not the right thing to do. We have a signed agreement. They're on our paths, right? Um, at the end of the day, there's one person who can make a big choice here.00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000Joe Hession: Is Indy gonna sue Snow King because of this clause in the piece?00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:54.000Joe Hession: I read in the Boston Globe that Eric Mogensen is going to, like, change and save skiing. Is he going to sue a small ski resort? Like, and I know that's blunt, but I would put the ball right back in his court. I would love to, you know, if he sues Snow King.00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:12.000Joe Hession: That would be an insane thing. And I think he should go out to everyone and say, you know what, we're not going to litigate. You know, I know he hasn't been operating a ski resort long, and I have a ton of respect because of the fact that the fact that he's a GM of a ski resort, the fact that he's operating a ski resort, there's not a single person. And I respect him.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:27.000Joe Hession: I really do. I really do. There's just one piece that we don't see eye to eye on. And it's… he's told me he's the anti-collaborator, and I am the ultimate collaborator. So when you get us in the ring together, it's one is super collaboration and one isn't. And so to me.00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:39.000Joe Hession: I think, you know, the more he operates a ski resort, he's gonna realize that litigation is one of the hardest things we have to deal with in the ski business. We have realities of things that happen at ski resorts that involve litigation.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:49.000Joe Hession: suing each other is just a waste of time. Like, what are we doing? Like, we should be, like, we need… we should be talking about skiing and snowboarding, and we should be thinking.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:09.000Joe Hession: how many visits can Indy give Snow King? I would love for them to get a ton of visits. How many visits can Snow Pass give Snow King? Let's get Snow King visits. Let's give people options. And just because of, like, some, uh, you know, red tape in a contract, we're then gonna threaten and clause, like.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:28.000Joe Hession: So that's… so here's… so I gave you probably more than I should have, but… and I'm sure Hugh is no longer looking at me, so he… but he didn't give me the hook, so I'm still talking, right, Hugh? We're good? So, I'm sure… you know, but you'll definitely… you wanted to have, you know, for this inaugural session, you wanted to have some stories. This is a story.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:39.000Joe Hession: The story is, the reality is, the truth is, that they were under contract, Indy, from what I understand, which they've told me, they wrote they are no longer to work, they gave them the right.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:53.000Joe Hession: I'm out. This is the time you're supposed to be out. They were unaware of this one clause, which we were also unaware of. We signed, we moved forward, we announced. After announcement, it was, no, you can't do that. So, really, right now, I think Snow King would gladly take visits from both.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.000Joe Hession: We would gladly take visits from both.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:02.000Joe Hession: Ball's in Mogensen's court, we'll see what he does. I guess the best way to approach this is publicly. So, here.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: And he…00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:16.000Stuart Winchester: I agree, and Eric is scheduled to be on this podcast on Thursday, so he will have his chance to respond. And you know what, Joe, you're welcome back anytime to respond. But before you go out the door, I do want… I did promise to keep these short, and I know for you and I.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.000Joe Hession: Perfect!00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:16.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:31.000Stuart Winchester: Both, that's a challenge. I do want to call out some of these awesome new triple play partners, uh, Jiminy Peak and Cramore, especially. I have a ton of respect for the Fairbanks and, and, uh, what, and what they do. Uh, Bromont is, is an excellent.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:51.000Stuart Winchester: edition, and Hallamont. Actually, Hallamont is on Snow Pass as well, which is a terrific skier. I never realized until I went there this year. It's just because it's private on the weekends and in public during the week. What do you have to do to convince some of these folks, especially Jiminy Cranmore Bromont, to jump over to Snow Pass? Do you think there's a path there?00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, you know, I do. I think it's kind of proving it out over time, but also making, you know, going back to what I said earlier, maybe the right product for them is a relationship with different resorts, right? Maybe it's a whole new version of what happens, but I think we're very lucky to have them on the program.00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:25.000Joe Hession: Both operators are fantastic. Brian and Tyler Fairbank, we go back really far. Like, they were early adopters of us with snow operating and train-based learning. Brian Fairbank, if people don't know, is one of the godfathers of snowmaking in the industry.00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:40.000Joe Hession: He's still at it. He's in his 80s. He's out there making snow. I mean, he's an absolute legend. So anytime we get to work with him and his resort partners, we're really happy. Tyler, we've obviously known for well over a decade and a half as well.00:46:40.000 --> 00:47:00.000Joe Hession: great resorts, we've loved visiting them, and I think they're great operators, so I think people are going to love discovering them. And that's, you know, one thing I'll give a lot of credit to Indy for, which has opened our eyes, is the fact that there's so many passes on the program, there's the fact that there's all these different options. People learn new places they've never learned before, right? And I think Epic and I kind of have done the same.00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Joe Hession: You know, I never thought of going to Crested Butte, but because it's on the Epic Pass, I'm going to go to Crested Butte, or I never thought of going to this resort, but because of it. And I think that's been a huge success. And it's great to hear you say, like, Hollymont, like, oh, I didn't know that much about the.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:29.000Joe Hession: I think that's the spirit. The spirit is, how do you take skiers from different regions and inspire them to want to go to somewhere else and make that transaction seamless and easy for the operators to navigate, is really our goal.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:49.000Stuart Winchester: It's such a rich world, and I love how you're helping folks explore it. Leave us with this, Joe. Where can we buy Snowpass? And I believe you said you're selling a limited number. You probably won't tell me that number, but how soon should folks go to where you're going to tell us to go before they're going to lose this special price of, I believe, 340 for Snowpass and 179?00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000Stuart Winchester: For the triple play.00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:05.000Joe Hession: Correct. So, so 4pm today, mysnowpass.com, uh, it's gonna be a limited release. Uh, if you know the Mound Creek world, and you know how we do it, it's actually Mound Creek's on the clock right now.00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:22.000Joe Hession: Um, we've been selling for 31 minutes, so I'm gonna get an update when we get off the call here, but at 4 o'clock, we will have our watch party with our group in the kind of war room. We're watching the transactions live. We have a number that we have promised ourselves we will not exceed, and it'll shut itself down at that number.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:40.000Joe Hession: Um, so 4PM today will be, uh… will be the birth of a new product in the industry, which hopefully will inspire other new products down the road, and… and hopefully start to change the relationship between resorts and… and the skiers, because that's what it's about. It's about getting skiers the best price for the best mountains, new… doing new things, and working together.00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:00.000Joe Hession: And we have a beautiful industry of resorts, but we have great customers. People who are skiers and snowboarders are so passionate. Like, I read everything they post on your stuff. You know, the comments have been just amazing. And, you know, we're looking forward to, over time, I want to make that person in Colorado that keeps saying, this pass stinks, has nothing to do for me.00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:09.000Joe Hession: I want to eventually win them over by giving them a product that does make sense for them or allowing resorts there to find a product that works for them. So it's really exciting day.00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: Colorado bro is very proud of Colorado. Uh, last year, Joe, you sold Snow Triple Play, I believe, until Christmas Eve. You have a similar schedule in mind for these two passes this year?00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah, exactly the same schedule. So they'll be… the best price will be the launches. So today will be the lowest possible price, it'll scale up in another drop, and then it'll be on sale for a little bit at its full retail price, and then it'll turn off at that time. Exactly.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Joe, so good to run you down. Good luck with the launch. I can't wait to see how it goes, and how this thing grows, and frankly, how this little controversy between Snowpass and Indypass resolves itself, because I'm sure that you will find a way through it. So, thank you so much for being my first guest on the new platform. I really appreciate it.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:35.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:54.000Stuart Winchester: You're welcome on anytime. We'll talk to you really soon.00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.000Joe Hession: Great. Thanks for having me.00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care, Joe. Bye now.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so…00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what do you…00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:23.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so that was Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners and the founder. Quick update from another partner before I wrap up the show today. If you run a ski area or outdoor brand, I want to tell you about my friends at Bonfire Collective.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:35.000Stuart Winchester: They are a fractional marketing team that collaborates with ski areas and outdoor brands, and they will give your marketing a fresh perspective and better storytelling to supercharge your rebranding or advertising.00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire can help you rethink your approach in ways that can turbocharge your business.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:49.000Stuart Winchester: For example, Bonfire took on the marketing at one New Hampshire ski area and doubled revenue in just three years.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: When the storm was ready to invest in its first ever digital marketing campaign last year, I worked with Bonfire to make it happen. I could not be happier with the results, and I think you will love working with them as well. To get started, you'll want to talk to Eric.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:21.000Stuart Winchester: over at Bonfire Collective. He was a co-founder of Bluebird Backcountry Colorado, the first human-powered ski area, so he knows the ski business. You can actually listen to his podcast episode on the Storm Skiing Podcast, long form. Visit bonfirecollective.com.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:25.000Stuart Winchester: Or I will be happy to make that connection for you.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, how great was Joe?00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:45.000Stuart Winchester: This is why I love the new pod, because I can have guys like that on all the time. I have dozens of relationships like that throughout the ski industry. Anytime you've listened to a podcast and you've heard someone on there and you enjoyed the conversation.00:51:45.000 --> 00:52:01.000Stuart Winchester: Whether it was Carl Kapczynski, who runs California Mountain Resorts, or… and owns Mountain High, and Bear Valley, and China Peak, and Dodge Ridge out in California. Or if it was…00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Dustin, who… the president at Copper Mountain, uh, or it was Rob Katz, you know, the Vale CEO. I'm interacting with these people, or… or the folks who represent them, all the time.00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:31.000Stuart Winchester: I talk to Carl Kabasinski all the time, but I haven't had him on the podcast in four years. He's already agreed to come on the new shorter form to talk about all the things going on in his mountains. And that's what's great about it. And, you know, one of the concerns that I heard from people when I announced a shorter form pod was.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:47.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, well, I really like when you covered small mountains. Well, this will allow me to do that much more, because I don't have to commit an entire hour and a half long episode to it, and it doesn't have to be the whole history of the area. I can just, for example, ask.00:52:47.000 --> 00:53:02.000Stuart Winchester: Rick Schmitz from Little Switzerland in Wisconsin to come onto the show and talk about the new quad chairlift that he's putting up or two new quads put

Martin McNicoll, founder of Distillerie des Cantons de l’Est This is the first episode in an occasional In The Channel series called “Life after the channel” – conversations with people who built careers in the Canadian IT channel and then went on to do something completely different. Martin McNicoll founded Gurus Solutions, originally ERP Guru, and grew it into one of NetSuite’s most decorated Canadian partners over nearly two decades – President’s Club, nine consecutive years as a Five Star Award winner, and offices from Montreal to Chicago. He sold the company in 2022 and turned his attention to something that had been brewing since a 50th birthday trip to Scotland: whisky. Distillerie des Cantons de l’Est is a grain-to-bottle operation in Mansonville, Quebec, where Martin and his team are growing organic barley and rye using regenerative agriculture, distilling on-site, and aging their whisky in oak casks. First barrels went in in December 2024, with the first whiskies expected around 2028. In this conversation, we talk about the failed attempt to buy a cask at Balvenie that started it all, the sale of Gurus and what made him finally say yes, why the skills he built running an ERP consultancy translate surprisingly well to running a distillery, and what it means to retrain a SaaS-speed brain for a product that takes years to mature. Martin also shares the story behind the McNicoll brand – his Scottish ancestors who came to Quebec with the 78th Fraser’s Highlanders in 1757 – and talks about the fight to get a distillery approved on Quebec agricultural land, replanting American oak for barrels that won’t be ready for 30 years, and what’s coming next, including a butterscotch liqueur later this year. Read Full Transcript Robert Dutt: Hello and welcome to In The Channel from ChannelBuzz.ca, bringing news and information to the Canadian IT channel community for the last 16 years. I’m Robert Dutt, editor of ChannelBuzz.ca and your host for the show. This episode is a little different from what you’re used to hearing on In The Channel. It’s the first in what I’m hoping becomes an occasional series I’m calling “Life After the Channel” – conversations with people who built careers in the Canadian IT channel and then went on to do something completely different. My guest today is Martin McNicoll. If you were in the NetSuite ecosystem in Canada at any point over the last two decades, you probably know Martin. He founded ERP Guru, which was later rebranded to Gurus Solutions, grew it into one of NetSuite’s top partners in the country, picked up every award in the book, and eventually sold the company in 2022. And then he went and did something that nobody saw coming. Martin’s now building a grain-to-bottle whisky distillery in the Eastern Townships of Quebec, growing his own organic barley and rye, aging his own barrels, and building a brand rooted in his family’s Scottish heritage going back to the 1700s. It’s a great story. So let’s get right into it, my chat with Martin McNicoll. [MUSIC] Robert: Martin, thanks for taking the time. Thanks for joining us. Martin McNicoll: Robert, it’s great to be here with you today. Robert: Nice to catch up. We ran into each other a lot at SuiteWorld. And for years, when I talked to Craig West about the channel in Canada for NetSuite, you guys would be one of the first names that came up. President’s Club, Five Star, the whole nine yards. And now you’re making whisky in the Eastern Townships. Walk me through that. How did we come to be where we’re at today? Martin: Well, it’s a note on Craig. He was my RSM. He was the guy managing me and Gurus when you started. He wasn’t like head of the channel. He actually came down to Montreal to help me start the practice. So we connected for all that time. But to go back to the whisky business, I’m a Scotch fan. I’m a whisky fan. And now, like eight years ago, for my 50th birthday, I went to Scotland with a bunch of friends and had a great time visiting distilleries for a full week, just drinking Scotch and having fun and eating good food. And when we came back, a couple of years later, it was COVID. And COVID, I think, happened and a lot of people got ideas of what they really want to do. And I have a cottage in the Eastern Townships, which is, for your listeners, a bit up north of Vermont. I’m 15 minutes from Jay Peak, which is a ski resort in Vermont, on the Canada side. Beautiful place. And we stayed there for the first year of COVID. We had amazing success with Gurus. I think for everybody in the channel, cloud services companies really boomed during that time. Everybody wanted to run their business from home. It was a great time. And I said, what can we do? We had supply chain issues our customers were trying to solve. And I said, what can I do? What can I contribute? I started with ideas of being a farmer. These were shut down pretty fast. But a friend of mine said, you know what, we can grow barley and rye and we can make whisky. And I said, oh, that’s a great idea. And then the hunt was on. We found some land – I mean, that’s the only thing we could do during COVID, drive around and look for land – and found great land with a great combination of good water and enough acreage to grow the cereals. And it started like that. And then a French company approached us to buy Gurus. And it was just the right timing. So everything happened. It just gave me more money to spend on booze, sort of saying. Robert: As it should be. So to your point on that 2018 trip to Scotland, I read that the dream sort of began with a mission of bringing home a cask of whisky. Is that true? Martin: It is true. We tried to, actually. When we went to the Balvenie and we said we’d like to buy one of your casks. And they looked at us like aliens. It’s like going to a Michelin restaurant and asking to buy the pan of the chef, right? Because the cask is part of the process. That’s what gives some of the aromas to the whisky. That’s where it’s aging. So you just can’t leave with the cask. You just can’t. I mean, I guess there were some barrel programs today, but you leave the cask there. You buy the liquid that’s in the cask, that’s all yours, but you can’t leave with the cask. But that was funny. That led to very interesting conversations at the distilleries in Scotland. Crazy Canadians trying to buy a cask. That’s the IP. That’s the trade secrets of the industry. Robert: So you had Gurus for 18 years, Alan Allman Associates comes knocking. You said initially you didn’t want to sell. What changed your mind? How much of it was about making room for the distillery that was already percolating in the back of your mind versus just feeling like it was the right time to do something new? Martin: I mean, it was that. I wanted to dedicate more time, because at that point the guy running Gurus was my COO, Dominic, and he was doing a great job. I was taking more time off and giving him more bandwidth on the business to run it. And I wanted him to be the president and continue running it. And these guys came in and they said, “We want to buy your company.” I said, “Okay, I’m not interested.” So they came back a couple times and the second time said, “Okay, how much do you want?” And I gave what I thought was a crazy number and they said yes. So I was done. And today it’s one of the most profitable businesses they have in their portfolio, and they’ve added other ERPs to the mix buying other companies in North America. And for the French, Quebec and Canada is kind of the bridgehead to go to the rest of Canada and the US. They needed a company that can speak English, which Gurus dealt with very well all the time. Not all of them do. But it was great for them. A great acquisition on their side. I’m still sitting on their board in Montreal every quarter, so it keeps me connected to the business, having fun there and very proud to see the company continue to thrive. Robert: You guys built Gurus through a string of acquisitions – Enabled Success, NetStra, MD Technical Resources. You had offices from Montreal to Chicago. When you look at what you’re doing now with the distillery – buying land, building infrastructure, hiring a master distiller – does it feel like it’s the same muscles that you built in building up Gurus, or is it completely different? Martin: It is the same thing. That’s very funny. I thought it would be something else. It’s not. It’s just managing people, managing providers. I mean, the problems are different – it’s like a truck being stuck emptying a cargo of casks going to the distillery, or a pump that is broken. But it’s like following up with the providers, finding the right partners, researching, researching, researching, reading. And all the skills that I’ve developed in BI and everything that we’ve built with Gurus is fully applied here at the distillery. So I started with cloud solutions first, and we’re using all the Google stack, which I always used, with their Google Cloud. All the data of the distillery is stored in a Google Cloud database and we can do analysis. It’s just great to look at it from a data perspective and have the right people to do the job. And I recognize what I’m good at and what I’m not good at. So I break stuff sometimes. That keeps me away from some pieces of equipment. Robert: One thing that jumped out on the website for the distillery was the grain-to-bottle concept. You grow the grain, you distill it, you age it, you sell it. You control the whole chain. For 20 years you kind of sat as the middleman doing the consulting and implementation in between NetSuite and the customer. Was it something about that experience that made you want to own the whole thing this time around? Martin: Definitely. And as you know, Robert, in the ERP channel, it’s not your software, it’s NetSuite. And my team understood the software, and the best successes we had were when we found a customer, sold NetSuite, understood the requirements, gave them a realistic estimate, implemented, and took them live with the right time frame. So that to me was like the perfect – everything that would work great, boom, boom, boom. We sold, we implemented, we took them live, converted all their data. Happy customers stayed with us for years. And that was a bit of that, right? Where the channel model is changing – like the Salesforce model, even NetSuite is changing where there’s more of a side where you need to work with a direct sales team, which by definition have different objectives. Their objective is to sell the software for as much as possible. As for a partner, when you do the implementation, there’s a lot in it for you also in year two and year three. So you want the whole thing to go as smooth as possible. Different pros and cons there. And I think that was definitely an inspiration in owning the whole supply chain and making the product. And even then, I need to buy bottles from China. Robert: Yeah, it’s the classic case study, right? If one person could make a nail, it would be completely impossible to gather all the skills you would need to go from getting the metal out of the earth to producing a nail, much less a bottle of whisky, much less enterprise ERP. The distillery website says patience is part of your essence, and whisky obviously is a product that has to age for years before you can sell a bottle. In the channel, again to the contrast you were just describing, everything’s about this quarter’s numbers, this year’s President’s Club. It’s fast, it’s iterative, things change very quickly, new features are added rapidly. How do you retrain your brain from SaaS speed to whisky speed? Martin: I’m still impatient. But you know what, you go out in the field. And in the last couple years we had a lot of rain. And we had issues with weeds going into our fields, because we took fields that were used for hay to give to cows. So there’s a lot of seeds that you need to take out of that land. And we’re doing it with regenerative agriculture techniques, where we don’t use Roundup, we don’t use chemicals. And sometimes you just sit there and you prepare the soil and then you go into the field and you make it super nice and you plant. And then two weeks later it’s full of weeds. Like hectares of weeds just popping up on top of your barley. And you’re like, yeah, what are you going to do? You try, you go in there first and you try to pull them out, and then you realize the scale of this. It’s impossible, right? So patience is pushed on you, I would say, in agriculture. And for the whisky, I mean, we’re tasting it. I love whisky. And we have now barrels that are one year old. And these are rye – rye is something that grows very fast, very high, super easy. It’s like a weed in itself if you talk to the farmers. So we had a great crop of rye and we made our first rye last year. So we were opening up that cask and tasting it now, and it is great. But you can taste after one year the immaturity of the whisky. So I think you have to trust your taste buds and say, okay, this is great. There’s something nice, nice colour, this is the direction I want it to take. But it’s not ready. So you sit on it, you put the cork on top of it, hammer it down, and then just wait again. And I’m telling people, when is it ready? It’s going to be ready when it’s ready. It’s going to be great. Robert: Can’t rush it. You’re working 60 acres of organic grain, you’re building your rickhouse, you’re hiring a master distiller, you’re planning a tasting centre. This doesn’t sound like a hobby thing for retirement. This is a full second career. Do you find you’re working harder now than you were when you were running Gurus? Martin: Definitely. Because at the end, when you build a business, you assemble a team and people know what to do. You’ve got a PMO office, a back office, and a marketing team. And now you’re alone. So I’m like, can I get some help here? I have nobody. So you’re back into entering data in QuickBooks. No, I’ve solved that, I delegated that. But it’s tough. And the problem is, when I sold the business, I told my wife I’m retiring. And she said, yeah, yeah, you’re retiring. But I didn’t think, and she didn’t think, it would be this intense in terms of running it. And you’re fighting against all the bureaucracy and you have to understand all the rules, environmental rules. And you have to understand, to be a farmer, you have to apply for a permit to be a farmer. So what’s your background, sir? Well, I’m a software engineer. So really, good thing. Do you know about farming? Absolutely not. Okay, what are you going to do about it? Well, I’m going to hire someone. Who is it? I don’t know. Well, you need to get the licence first. So no, I found someone actually that really helped me and was working in the prairies in Saskatchewan for more than 10 years, working with cereals there. So it’s assembling a team, making it work together, putting all the resources in place so they can succeed. It’s the same thing. What I like is the manual labour, which you don’t get in tech. I’ve lost some weight. So that’s good, being out there and working with the equipment. One of the projects we’re working on now – for your listeners, we’re in March and mid-March in Quebec, it’s still very cold, it’s like minus 15 Celsius – so it’s the last time we’ll be able to go in the forest. And what we’re doing is harvesting some trees to plant oak trees. We’re introducing Quercus alba, which is the American oak, into our forest, because we have more forest than we have land. And the goal would be in, I don’t know, 30 years – I won’t be there – to make some barrels, maybe. So again, in that supply chain of getting there. But there’s no more oak in the area. It was all cut down for the lumber industry. So we’re replanting. That’s one of the side projects. So we’re going to go out with the equipment on Friday and go in the woods and cut some trees. That’s something I didn’t used to do. And that’s what my job involves now. A chainsaw. I’m happy. Robert: This is what you get to invent for yourself. And if you’re happy, that’s brilliant. You’re making three types of whisky as I understand it – a single malt, you touched on the rye, and a Canadian bourbon, which is not a concept I’d heard before. Very interesting. I enjoy a whisky, I am not a well-educated drinker. But for those who are listening, what’s the vision of the distillery? What are you going for with the whisky products? Martin: So we’re looking to develop high-end whisky. We’re talking about $100 bottles. So it really needs to be fine-tuned to the taste of the different products that you build. When you talk about rye whisky, it’s mainly – the cereal has to be rye. Single malt is just barley. And when you talk about bourbon, or if you talk about bourbon in Kentucky, it’s mainly based out of corn. So we have corn also on the land and we’ve added some wheat that we’ve tried. It’s a mix of different – they call it a mash bill. So our mash bill, the cereals that get taken into the equipment for the mash to create a beer. We make a beer, then we distill that beer and that’s the whisky at the end. The big difference is the cereals. So that batch we had, I think it was two years ago, big winter, and we couldn’t get the rye out of our silos because of the amount of snow and ice that was out there. So we said, hey, we have some corn there. Why don’t we make some – it’s all Canadian whisky, right? If you look at the official denomination, it’s Canadian whisky. Don’t confuse marketing with the real stuff. But it’s a mash bill that involves more than 50% corn. In this one I think it’s 65% corn. And it has that – you’ll recognize it if you’re a bourbon drinker – that very sweet, mellow taste of corn that you get into the whisky. That’s what you get from bourbon. So that’s what we’re making with that corn. Robert: I look forward to trying that, actually. Hopefully someday. On your website, I love the clan story – the McNicoll ancestors coming over with the 78th Fraser’s Highlanders in 1757, fighting at Louisbourg and Quebec, settling in La Malbaie. And now you’re bringing that Scottish whisky tradition back to Quebec soil. How much of this, as well as the ability to play with the chainsaw and hopefully bring in some casks, how much of this is about honouring that heritage? Martin: Well, that was a big part. When I started to enjoy more whisky and go back to Scotland, I went back to the land of my ancestors. So that was Portree, close to the Isle of Skye. And there’s another area also, another region, that there’s two big areas that the McNicoll clan were. So I got to visit that. That was always part of the story. And then as I was publishing some of my content on Scotland, a professor from a university here in the Eastern Townships contacted me. He said, you know, I wrote a book on the McNicoll clan, the whole story. So we started to talk and that became a very nice collaboration between him and the distillery to tell more of the story, to the point where we decided to call the whisky McNicoll. So the whiskies are going to be called McNicoll, with the different types of whisky we’re going to sell. The brand itself is my last name, which is an honour to this Scot who came to America, really, because they fought down, they went down to New York with the 78th, and the original dude came back north. And my mother has French ancestry – she’s a Chevalier, she’s French, French, French – and then Scottish, Scottish, Scottish. And then there’s a mix. You can see there’s a mix in between those two. And you look at the genealogy, and that professor went back and he found all the ancestors and all the churches here in Quebec and went down to New York, went to Scotland to find all the origins. Very interesting to see the different clans and the French into making our population today. Robert: Very cool. You touched a little earlier on the bureaucracy and that kind of fun. You went through an interesting fight with Quebec’s Agricultural Land Protection Commission to get permission to build a distillery on farmland. Without getting too deep into the legal weeds, what was that like? And is that a challenge other people thinking about agritourism or value-added agriculture should be ready for? Martin: Definitely. And doing business in anything that involves food – there are some guidelines and some rules of law that you need to follow, which is, I would say, much harder than to open a NetSuite provider or a NetSuite partner licence. I had offices all across the US and also in the rest of Canada. It was 100 times easier to open an office in California than to start an agri business in Quebec, or even I would say Canada. Some provinces are easier than Quebec, but it was always a challenge. But I knew I was right. So one thing you learn is that you surround yourself with great people. My lawyers – that’s the thing you can do when you have money, you just lawyer up. But they were great at understanding everything that was going on. I found the expert and this woman knew exactly what was happening. She found some other people that were able to go through it. And we just had to go through all the legwork and convince the commission that what we’re doing is okay. And here’s why. But it’s a process and it’s frustrating because you’re there and you want to do this project. And you’re like, I’m going to be environmentally friendly. I’m going to do this from the grain to the bottle. I want to do all those different things. And then you see all those obstacles. But I think it’s part of the challenge, going through them and winning. At the end, I won. So that’s what counts. Robert: It is exactly what counts. So if someone in the channel who’s in a place that you were at when you were with Gurus is listening to this and thinking, I’d love to do something like that someday – not necessarily to be a competitor to you, but to sell the practice, go off and do something completely different, that’s their dream – what would you tell them, having gone through this process as far as you have now? Martin: I think the fact that they have done it before – starting a consulting firm and running it and dealing with customers – they’ve built their knowledge and their expertise and their resilience into doing anything else. I would always say that implementing an ERP system is the Formula One of computer science, because you have so much complexity. And if you fail, the company can die. They will not operate. Products will not ship. Invoices will not go out. You can cripple a business by doing a wrong implementation. So I would say you’re really prepared to do anything, in my mind, after the channel, after running that type of business. I think it’s just to look at what you like to do and what’s your ambition and take it head on. Robert: Good advice. Good advice from someone who has done it and is doing it. And my last and no doubt most important question – when do we get to actually taste the whisky? When do you get to market with your products? Martin: At least two years. So to be whisky, to be called whisky, it needs to be three years in a cask, in an oak cask. And for us, we just reached our first anniversary in December. So we still have a good two years to go. And we have to decide if we are going to put it in a bottle or not. We’re going to taste it and say, is it ready or not? And if not, I’m just going to sit on it again. However, we’re coming out with a liqueur that we’re making. It’s a butterscotch liqueur that our master distiller has been developing. And he’s working also on another liqueur that we want to put out, and we’re going to sell locally. Just to get some things out of the distillery with a Scottish-type accent. Our master distiller has also some Scottish ancestry. He went to school at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh to learn about the trade. So he’s got all those ancient recipes of Scottish liqueurs. We’re pulling out of that book to create some interesting products. So that should come in a couple of months, hopefully, if I can get my bottles from China. Robert: Fascinating stuff. Good luck. It’s been very interesting catching up and it’s always fascinating to hear about the journeys of folks who’ve made a career in the channel and see what they’re doing afterwards. All the best with getting that liqueur out, and the longer term getting those three whiskies out the door. Martin: Thank you, Robert. Robert: There you have it – Martin McNicoll, formerly of Gurus Solutions, currently of Distillerie des Cantons de l’Est. I’d like to thank Martin for his time and honestly for his openness. It’s not every day that someone walks you through what it’s actually like to trade quarterly SaaS targets for fields of organic barley and barrels that won’t be ready for three years. A couple things that stuck out for me in this conversation. First, the idea that the same muscles that Martin built running a channel business – the acquisitions, the growth planning, the systems thinking – are the same muscles he’s using to build the distillery. Different industry, same instincts. I think anyone running a channel practice will recognize themselves in that. And second, the patience piece. Martin talked about planting trees today for barrels he won’t use for 30 years. That’s a fundamentally different relationship with time than most of us have in the tech world. And I think that’s something worth sitting with. If you want to learn more about what Martin’s building, you can find the distillery at distilleriedescantons.ca, and we’ll have a link for that in the show notes. Keep an eye out for the butterscotch liqueur, which should be available before the whisky is. If you enjoyed the episode, do me a favour – follow or subscribe wherever you’re listening, whether it’s Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever else you find your podcasts. And if you’re feeling generous, a rating or review goes a long way for a small show like ours. Until next time, I’m Robert Dutt for ChannelBuzz.ca, and I’ll see you in the channel.

Send a textBig news drops: we're adding two late-season mountain classics to the Cirque Series calendar and turning it into a true coast-to-coast slate. Jay Peak in Vermont brings 7.1 miles with 3,044 feet of climbing and a rugged, two-peak ridge that blends flowy running with real technical spice. One week later, Mount Baldy in Southern California delivers 9.1 miles and 3,926 feet of vert over the iconic Devil's Backbone, cresting Mount San Antonio at 11,000-plus feet with the Pacific on the horizon and LA at your back.We break down what makes each venue special. Jay Peak sits perfectly for Northeast athletes and our neighbors in Quebec and Montreal, with a tram-side festival zone and fast, character-filled double singletrack on the descent. Baldy is rootsy and high-alpine, shockingly close to Ontario Airport, and built for a finish-line party at a mom-and-pop ski hill with deep local pride. Expect steep pushes, ridge exposure, big views, and descents you can actually open up on—plus dates and temps that hit the sweet spot for post-UTMB and fall racing.We also share how a 10-race national series comes together: thoughtful course design that avoids bottlenecks, a summit-first ethos, and an evolving overall-points plan that rewards your best finishes rather than pure volume. With three East races now at or above 3,000 feet of vert and seven in the West, the stage is set for new rivalries, fresh community energy, and one unified title worth chasing. Registration is open, dates are set—Jay Peak on September 26 and Mount Baldy on October 3—and the competition looks fierce.Ready to pick your line and join us on the ridge? Hit play for the full details, then subscribe, share with a friend who loves vert, and leave a quick review to help more runners find the show. Which course are you targeting first?Register for Cirque Series Jay Peak (Sept 26th) - @Cirque JayPeakRegister for Cirque Series Baldy (October 3rd) - @Cirque BaldyCheck out the Cirque Series Website for All Races - TheCirqueSeriesFollow the Cirque Series on Instagram - @cirqueseriesFollow Julian Carr on Instagram - @juliancarrFollow Steve White on Instagram - @steve_white2Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod

WhoMike Giorgio, Vice President and General Manager of Stowe Mountain, VermontRecorded onOctober 8, 2025About StoweClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Vail Resorts, which also owns:Located in: Stowe, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations:* Epic Pass: unlimited access* Epic Local Pass: unlimited access with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Value Pass: 10 days with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Midweek Pass: 5 midweek days with holiday blackouts* Access on Epic Day Pass All and 32 Resort tiers* Ski Vermont 4 Pass – up to one day, with blackouts* Ski Vermont Fifth Grade Passport – 3 days, with blackoutsClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Smugglers' Notch (ski-to or 40-ish-minute drive in winter, when route 108 is closed over the notch), Bolton Valley (:45), Cochran's (:50), Mad River Glen (:55), Sugarbush (:56)Base elevation: 1,265 feet (at Toll House double)Summit elevation: 3,625 feet (top of the gondola), 4,395 feet at top of Mt. MansfieldVertical drop: 2,360 feet lift-served, 3,130 feet hike-toSkiable acres: 485Average annual snowfall: 314 inchesTrail count: 116 (16% beginner, 55% intermediate, 29% advanced)Lift count: 12 (1 eight-passenger gondola, 1 six-passenger gondola, 1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 1 fixed-grip quad, 1 triple, 2 doubles, 2 carpets)Why I interviewed himThere is no Aspen of the East, but if I had to choose an Aspen of the East, it would be Stowe. And not just because Aspen Mountain and Stowe offer a similar fierce-down, with top-to-bottom fall-line zippers and bumpy-bumps spliced by massive glade pockets. Not just because each ski area rises near the far end of densely bunched resorts that the skier must drive past to reach them. Not just because the towns are similarly insular and expensive and tucked away. Not just because the wintertime highway ends at both places, an anachronistic act of surrender to nature from a mechanized world accustomed to fencing out the seasons. And not just because each is a cultural stand-in for mechanized skiing in a brand-obsessed, half-snowy nation that hates snow and is mostly filled with non-skiers who know nothing about the activity other than the fact that it exists. Everyone knows about Aspen and Stowe even if they'll never ski, in the same way that everyone knows about LeBron James even if they've never watched basketball.All of that would be sufficient to make the Stowe-is-Aspen-East argument. But the core identity parallel is one that threads all these tensions while defying their assumed outcome. Consider the remoteness of 1934 Stowe and 1947 Aspen, two mountains in the pre-snowmaking, pre-interstate era, where cutting a ski area only made sense because that's where it snowed the most. Both grew in similar fashion. First slowly toward the summit with surface lifts and mile-long single chairs crawling up the incline. Then double chairs and gondolas and snowguns and detachable chairlifts. A ski area for the town evolves into a ski area for the world. Hotels a la luxe at the base, traffic backed up to the interstate, corporate owners and $261 lift tickets.That sounds like a formula for a ruined world. But Stowe the ski area, like Aspen Mountain the ski area, has never lost its wild soul. Even buffed out and six-pack equipped and Epic Pass-enabled, Stowe remains a hell of a mountain, one of the best in New England, one of my favorite anywhere. With its monster snowfalls, its endless and perfectly spaced glades, its never-groomed expert zones, its sprawling footprint tucked beneath the Mansfield summit, its direct access to rugged and forbidding backcountry, Stowe, perhaps the most western-like mountain in the East, remains a skier's mountain, a fierce and humbling proving ground, an any-skier's destination not because of its trimmings, but because of the Christmas tree itself.Still, Stowe will never be Aspen, because Stowe does not sit at 8,000 feet and Stowe does not have three accessory ski areas and Stowe the Town does not grid from the lift base like Aspen the Town but rather lies eight miles down the road. Also Stowe is owned by Vail Resorts, and can you just imagine? But in a cultural moment that assumes ski area ruination-by-the-consolidation-modernization-mega-passification axis-of-mainstreaming, Aspen and Stowe tell mirrored versions of a more nuanced story. Two ski areas, skinned in the digital-mechanical infrastructure that modernity demands, able to at once accommodate the modern skier and the ancient mountain, with all of its quirks and character. All of its amazing skiing.What we talked aboutStowe the Legend; Vail Resorts' leadership carousel; ascending to ski area leadership without on-mountain experience; Mount Brighton, Michigan and Midwest skiing; struggles at Paoli Peaks, Indiana; how the Sunrise six-pack upgrade of the old Mountain triple changed the mountain; whether the Four Runner quad could ever become a six-pack; considering the future of the Lookout Double and Mansfield Gondola; who owns the land in and around the ski area; whether Stowe has terrain expansion potential; the proposed Smugglers' Notch gondola connection and whether Vail would ever buy Smuggs; “you just don't understand how much is here until you're here”; why Stowe only claims 485 acres of skiable terrain; protecting the Front Four; extending Stowe's season last spring; snowmaking in a snowbelt; the impact and future of paid parking; on-mountain bed-base potential; Epic Friend 50 percent off lift tickets; and Stowe locals and the Epic Pass.What I got wrongOn detailsI noted that one of my favorite runs was not a marked run at all: the terrain beneath the Lookout double chair. In fact, most of the trail beneath this mile-plus-long lift is a market run called, uh, “Lookout.” So I stand corrected. However, the trailmap makes this full-throttle, narrow bumper – which feels like skiing on a rising tide – look wide, peaceful, and groomable. It is none of those things, at least for its first third or so.On skiable acres* I said that Killington claimed “like 1,600 acres” of terrain – the exact claimed number is 1,509 acres.* I said that Mad River Glen claimed far fewer skiable acres than it probably could, but I was thinking of an out-of-date stat. The mountain claims just 115 acres of trails – basically nothing for a 2,000-vertical-foot mountain, but also “800 acres of tree-skiing access.” The number listed on the Pass Smasher Deluxe is 915 acres.On season closingsI intimated that Stowe had always closed the third weekend in April. That appears to be mostly true for the past two-ish decades, which is as far back as New England Ski History has records. The mountain did push late once, however, in 2007, and closed early during the horrible no-snow winter of 2011-12 (April 1), and the Covid-is-here-to-kill-us-all shutdown of 2020 (March 14).On doing better prepI asked whether Stowe had considered making its commuter bus free, but it, um, already is. That's called Reeserch, Folks.On lift ticket ratesI claimed that Stowe's top lift ticket price would drop from $239 last year to $235 this coming season, but that's inaccurate. Upon further review, the peak walk-up rate appears to be increasing to $261 this coming winter:Which means Vail's record of cranking Stowe lift ticket rates up remains consistent:On opening hoursI said that the lifts at Stowe sometimes opened at “7:00 or 7:30,” but the earliest ski lift currently opens at 8:00 most mornings (the Over Easy transit gondola opens at 7:30). The Fourrunner quad used to open at 7:30 a.m. on weekends and holidays. I'm not sure when mountain ops changed that. Here's the lift schedule clipped from the circa 2018 trailmap:On Mount Brighton, Michigan's supposed trashheap legacyI'd read somewhere, sometime, that Mount Brighton had been built on dirt moved to make way for Interstate 96, which bores across the state about a half mile north of the ski area. The timelines match, as this section of I-96 was built between 1956 and '57, just before Brighton opened in 1960. This circa 1962 article from The Livingston Post, a local paper, fails to mention the source of the dirt, leaving me uncertain as to whether or not the hill is related to the highway:Why you should ski StoweFrom my April 10 visit last winter, just cruising mellow, low-angle glades nearly to the base:I mean, the place is just:I love it, Man. My top five New England mountains, in no particular order, are Sugarbush, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, and Sugarloaf. What's best on any given day depends on conditions and crowding, but if you only plan to ski the East once, that's your list.Podcast NotesOn Stowe being the last 1,000-plus-vertical-foot Vermont ski area that I featured on the podYou can view the full podcast catalogue here. But here are the past Vermont eps:* Killington & Pico – 2019 | 2023 | 2025* Stratton 2024* Okemo 2023* Middlebury Snowbowl 2023* Mount Snow 2020 | 2023* Bromley 2022* Jay Peak 2022 | 2020* Smugglers' Notch 2021* Bolton Valley 2021* Hermitage Club 2020* Sugarbush 2020 with current president John Hammond | 2020 with past owner Win Smith* Mad River Glen 2020* Magic Mountain 2019 | 2020* Burke 2019On Stowe having “peers, but no betters” in New EnglandWhile Stowe doesn't stand out in any one particular statistical category, the whole of the place stacks up really well to the rest of New England - here's a breakdown of the 63 public ski areas that spin chairlifts across the six-state region:On the Front Four ski runsThe “Front Four” are as synonymous with Stowe as the Back Bowls are with Vail Mountain or Corbet's Couloir is with Jackson Hole. These Stowe trails are steep, narrow, double-plus-fall-line bangers that, along with Castlerock at Sugarbush and Paradise at Mad River Glen, are among the most challenging runs in New England.The problem is determining which of the double-blacks spiderwebbing off the top of Fourrunner are part of the Front Four. Officially, the designation has always bucketed National, Liftline, Goat, and Starr together, but Bypass, Haychute, and Lookout could sub in most days. Credit to Stowe for keeping these wild trails intact for going on a century, but what I said about them “not being for the masses” on the podcast wasn't quite accurate, as the lower portions of many - especially Liftline - are wide, often groomed, and not particularly treacherous. The best end-to-end trail is Goat, which is insanely steep and narrow up top. Here's part of Goat's middle-to-lower section, which is mellower but a good portrayal of New England bumpy, exposed-dirt-and-rocks gnar, especially at the :19 mark:The most glorious ego boost (or ego check) is the few hundred vertical feet of Liftline directly below Fourrunner. Sound on for scrapey-scrape:When the cut trails get icy, you can duck into the adjacent glades, most of which are unmarked but skiable. Here, I bailed into the trees skier's left of Starr to escape the ice rink:On Vail Resorts' leadership shufflesTwelve of Vail's 37 North American ski areas began the 2024-25 ski season with a different leader than they ended the 2023-24 ski season with. This included five of the company's New England resorts, including Stowe. Giorgio, in fact, became the ski area's third general manager in three winters, and the fourth since Vail acquired the ski area in 2017. I asked Giorgio about this, as a follow up to a similar set of questions I'd laid out for Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz in August:I may be overthinking this, but check this out: between 2017 and 2024, Vail Resorts changed leadership at its North American ski areas more than 70 times - the yellow boxes below mark a new president-general-manager equivalent (red boxes indicate that Vail did not yet own the ski area):To reset my thinking here: I can't say that this constant leadership shuffle is inherently dysfunctional, and most Vail Resorts employees I speak with appreciate the company's upward-mobility culture. And I consistently find Vail's mountain leaders - dozens of whom I have hosted on this podcast - to be smart, earnest, and caring. However, it's hard to imagine that the constant turnover in top management isn't at least somewhat related to Vail Resorts' on-the-ground reputational issues, truncated seasons at non-core ski areas (see Paoli Peaks section below), and general sense that the company's arc of investment bends toward its destination resorts.On Peak ResortsVail purchased all of Peak Resorts, including Mount Snow, where Giorgio worked, in 2019. Here's that company's growth timeline:On Vernon Valley-Great GorgeThe ski area now known as Mountain Creek was Vernon Valley-Great Gorge until 1997. Anyone who grew up in the area still calls the joint by its legacy name.On Paoli Peaks versus Perfect NorthMy hope is that if I complain enough about Paoli Peaks, Vail will either invest enough in snowmaking to tranform it into a functional ski area or sell it. Here are the differences between Paoli's season lengths since 2013 as compared to Perfect North, its competitor that is the only other active ski area in the state:What explains this longstanding disparity, which certainly predates Vail's 2019 acquisition of the ski area? Paoli does sit southwest of Perfect North, but its base is 200 feet higher (600 feet, versus 400 for Perfect), so elevation doesn't explain it. Perfect does benefit from a valley location, which, longtime GM Jonathan Davis told me a few years back, locks in the cold air and supercharges snowmaking. The simplest answer, however, is probably the correct one: Perfect North has built one of the most impressive snowmaking systems on the planet, and they use it aggressively, cranking more than 200 guns at once. At peak operations, Perfect can transform from green grass to skiable terrain in just a couple of days.So yes, Perfect has always been a better operation than Paoli. But check this out: Paoli's performance as compared to Perfect's has been considerably worse in the five full seasons of Vail Resorts' ownership (excluding 2019-20), than in the six seasons before, with Perfect besting Paoli to open by an average of 21 days before Vail arrived, and by 31 days after. Perfect's seasons lasted an average of 25 days longer than Paoli's before Vail arrived, and 38 days longer after:Yes, Paoli is a uniquely challenged ski area, but I'm confident that someone can do a better job running this place than Vail has been doing since 2019. Certainly, that someone could be Vail, which has the resources and institutional knowledge to transform this, or any ski area, into a center of SnoSportSkiing excellence. So far, however, they have declined to do so, and I keep thinking of what Davis, Perfect North's longtime GM, said on the pod in 2022: “If Vail doesn't want [its ski areas in Indiana and Ohio], we'll take them!”On the 2022 Sunrise Six replacement for the tripleIn 2022, Stowe replaced the Mountain triple chair, which sat up a flight of steep steps from the parking lot, with the at-grade Sunrise six-pack. It was the kind of big-time lift upgrade that transforms the experience of an entire ski area for everyone, whether they use the new lift or not, by pulling skiers toward a huge pod of underutilized terrain and away from longtime alpha lifts Fourrunner and the Mansfield Gondola.On Fourrunner as a vert machineStowe's Fourruner high-speed quad is one of the most incredible lifts in American skiing, a lightspeed-fast base-to-summit, 2,040-vertical-foot monster with direct access to some of the best terrain west of A-Basin.The highest vert total in my 54-day 2024-25 ski season came (largely) courtesy of this lift - and I only skied five-and-a-half hours:On Stowe-Smuggs proximity and the proposed gondola and a long drive in winterAdventurous skiers can skin or hike across the top of Stowe's Spruce Peak and ski down into the Smugglers' Notch ski area. An official ski trail once connected them, and Smuggs proposed a gondola connector a couple of years back. If Vail were to purchase sprawling Smuggs, a Canyons-Park City mega-connection – while improbable given local environmental lobbies -could instantly transform Stowe into one of the largest ski areas in the East.On Jay Peak's big snowmaking upgradesI referenced big offseason snowmaking upgrades for water-challenged (but natural-snow blessed), Jay Peak. I was referring to this:This season brings an over $1.5M snowmaking upgrade that's less about muscle and more about brains. We've added 49 brand new HKD Low E air-water snowmaking guns—32 on Queen's Highway and 17 on Perry Merrill. These aren't your drag-'em-out, hook-'em-up, hope-it's-cold-enough kind of guns. They're fixed in place for the season and far more efficient, using much less compressed air than the ones they replace. Translation: better snow, less energy.On Perry Merrill, things get even slicker. We've installed HKD Klik automated hydrants that come with built-in weather stations. The second temps hit 28 degrees wetbulb, these hydrants kick on automatically and adjust the flow as the mercury drops. No waiting, no guesswork, no scrambling the crew. The end result? Those key connecting trails between Tramside and Stateside get covered faster, which means you can ski from one side to the other—or straight back to your condo—without having to hop on a shuttle with your boots still buckled. …It's all part of a bigger 10-year snowmaking plan we're rolling out—more automation, better efficiency, and ultimately, better snow for you to ski and ride on.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Ski Moms Podcast, hosts Nicole and Sarah welcome Rachel Proper, founder of Keep Vermont Wild, for an in-depth conversation about making Vermont's outdoor adventures accessible to everyone, especially families with young children. Rachel shares her journey from posting personal outdoor adventures to creating a comprehensive resource that showcases Vermont's beauty while promoting responsible tourism and Leave No Trace principles.The conversation covers practical advice for visiting Vermont, including navigating the state's notorious lack of cell service, understanding mud season (Vermont's unique fifth season), and the challenges of electric vehicles in cold, hilly terrain. Rachel provides insider tips on family-friendly ski resorts, recommending Smuggler's Notch as an excellent family destination alongside larger resorts like Stowe, Sugarbush, Killington, Stratton, and Jay Peak.Rachel emphasizes that Vermont outdoor experiences don't require expensive gear investments, highlighting rental options at local ski shops, free snowshoe rentals at public libraries, and the importance of wool base layers for winter activities. She recommends toddler-friendly hikes like Mill River State Park in Jericho and discusses creative Vermont initiatives like story hikes and story skis that combine outdoor activity with children's literature. The episode also explores the delicate balance Rachel maintains as a content creator—promoting Vermont tourism while protecting fragile ecosystems and respecting local communities.Keep Vermont Wild:Instagram: @keepvermontwildTikTok: @keepvermontwildWebsite: keepvermontwild.comSeasonal guides available for purchase (downloadable PDFs and hard copies)Key QuotesOn Keep Vermont Wild's Mission: "Vermont wasn't meant to be enjoyed indoors. I really do not believe that. I truly, honestly believe it was meant to be enjoyed outside."On Accessibility: "I really just wParticipating destinations include:

In this episode, we break down Blizzard's brand-new freestyle line, Canvas—arguably the least “Blizzard-y” ski they've ever made, in a good way. After some early-season chaos talk (New England snow showing up, who's spinning already, and a recap of Snowbound Expo and the Blizzard x BSSC event), we dive into what Canvas is, who it's for, and how the 100/108/118 lineup stacks up against skis from Armada, Black Crows, Line, and Rossi. We get into why this is such a big departure for a brand known for Brahma, Bonafide, Rustler, Black Pearl, and Anomaly, how brand perception affects park skis, and why athletes and comps matter in launching something new. We also cover the graphic story, including artist Penelope Mesa's painted canvases that give the ski its distinctive black-and-white freestyle look. 00:00 – Winter is here 01:48 – Early-season stoke: Jay Peak snow & who's spinning 04:36 – Snowbound Expo, BSSC party & Boston ski buzz 11:02 – Meet Blizzard Canvas: Blizzard's new freestyle/park ski 13:54 – Canvas lineup, specs & Penelope Mesa's graphic story 20:01 – Who Canvas is for & how it fits into Blizzard's lineup 23:15 – Brand perception, park heritage & why athletes matter 32:17 – Weird skis, graphics & shapes 48:37 – East vs West: hot laps, rope tows & small-mountain lap machines, Ragged's new ownership & closing thoughts / go skiing

Take 20% off an annual Storm subscription through 10/22/2025 to receive 100% of the newsletter's content. Thank you for your support of independent ski journalism.WhoPhill Gross, owner, and Mike Solimano, CEO of Killington and Pico, VermontRecorded onJuly 10, 2025About KillingtonClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Phill Gross and teamLocated in: Killington, VermontYear founded: 1958Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with PicoReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passesClosest neighboring ski areas: Pico (:12), Saskadena Six (:39), Okemo (:40), Quechee (:44), Ascutney (:55), Storrs (:59), Harrington Hill (:59), Magic (1:00), Whaleback (1:02), Sugarbush (1:04), Bromley (1:04), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:08), Arrowhead (1:10), Mad River Glen (1:11)Base elevation: 1,165 feet at Skyeship BaseSummit elevation: 4,142 feet at top of K-1 gondola (hike-to summit of Killington Peak at 4,241 feet)Vertical drop: 2,977 feet lift-served, 3,076 hike-toSkiable Acres: 1,509Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 155 (43% advanced/expert, 40% intermediate, 17% beginner)Lift count: 20 (2 gondolas, 2 six-packs, 4 high-speed quads, 5 fixed-grip quads, 2 triples, 1 double, 1 platter, 3 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Killington's lift fleet; Killington plans to replace the Snowdon triple with a fixed-grip quad for the 2026-27 ski season)History: from New England Ski HistoryAbout PicoClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Phill Gross and teamLocated in: Mendon, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with KillingtonReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passes; four days Killington access included on Pico K.A. PassClosest neighboring ski areas: Killington (:12), Saskadena Six (:38), Okemo (:38), Quechee (:42), Ascutney (:53), Storrs (:57), Harrington Hill (:55), Magic (:58), Whaleback (1:00), Sugarbush (1:01), Bromley (1:00), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:01), Mad River Glen (1:07), Arrowhead (1:09)Base elevation: 2,000 feetSummit elevation: 3,967 feetVertical drop: 1,967 feetSkiable Acres: 468Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 58 (36% advanced/expert, 46% intermediate, 18% beginner)Lift count: 7 (2 high-speed quads, 2 triples, 1 doubles, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Pico's lift fleet)History: from New England Ski HistoryWhy I interviewed themThe longest-tenured non-government ski area operator in America, as far as I know, is the Seeholzer family, owner-operators of Beaver Mountain, Utah since 1939. Third-generation owner Travis Seeholzer came on the pod a few years back to trace the eight-decade arc from this dude flexing 10-foot-long kamikaze boards to the present:Just about every ski area in America was hacked out of the wilderness by Some Guy Who Looked Like That. Dave McCoy at Mammoth or Ernie Blake at Taos or Everett Kircher at Boyne Mountain, swarthy, willful fellows who flew airplanes and erected rudimentary chairlifts in impossible places and hammered together their own baselodges. Over decades they chiseled these mountains into their personal Rushmores, a life's work, a human soul knotted to nature in a built place that would endure for generations.It's possible that they all imagined their family name governing those generations. In the remarkable case of Boyne, they still do. But the Kirchers and the Seeholzers are ski-world exceptions. Successive generations are often uninterested in the chore of legacy building. Or they try and say wow this is expensive. Or bad weather leads to bad financial choices by our cigar-smoking, backhoe-driving, machete-wielding founder and his sons and daughters never get their chance. The ski area's deed shuffles into the portfolio of a Colorado Skico and McCoy fades a little each year and at some point Mammoth is just another ski area owned by Alterra Mountain Company.It's tempting to sentimentalize the past, to lament skiing's macro-transition from gritty network of founder-kingpin fifes to set of corporate brands, to conclude that “this generation” just doesn't have the tenacity of a Blake or a McCoy. But the America where a fellow could turn up with a dump truck and a chainsaw and flatten raw forest into a for-profit business with minimal protest is gone. Every part of the ski ecosystem is more regulated, complicated, and expensive than it's ever been. The appeal of running such a machine - and the skillset necessary to do so - is entirely different from that of sculpting your own personal snow Narnia from scratch. We will always have family-owned ski areas (we still have hundreds), and an occasional modern founder-disruptor like Mount Bohemia's Lonie Glieberman will materialize like a new X-man. But ski conglomerates have probably always been inevitable, and are probably largely the industry's future. They are best suited, in most cases, to manage, finance, and maintain the vast machinery of our largest ski centers (and also to create a ski landscape in which not all ski area operators are Some Guy Who Looked Like That).Killington demonstrates this arc from rambunctious founder to corporate vassal as well as any mountain in the country. Founded in 1958 by the wily and wild Pres Smith, the ski area's parent company, Sherburne Corp., bought Sunday River, Maine in 1973 and Mount Snow, Vermont in 1977. The two Vermont mountains became S-K-I in 1984, bought five more ski areas, and merged with four-resort LBO in 1996 to become the titanic American Skiing Company. Unfortunately ASC turned out to be skiing's Titanic, and one of the company's last acts before dissolution was to sell Killington and Pico to Utah-based Powdr in 2007.The Beast had been tamed, at least on paper. Corporate ownership of some sort felt as stapled to the mountain as Killington's 3,000 snowguns. And mostly, well, it didn't matter. Other than Powdr's disastrous attempts to shorten the resort's famously long seasons, Killington never lost its feisty edge. Over the decades the ski area modernized, masterplanned, and shed skier volume while increasing its viability as a business. Modern Killington wasn't the kingdom of a charismatic and ever-present founder, but it was a pretty good ski area.And then, suddenly, shockingly, Powdr sold both Killington and Pico last August. And they didn't sell the ski areas to Vail or Alterra or Boyne or to anyone who owned any ski areas at all. Instead, a group of local investors - led by Phill Gross and Michael Ferri, longtime Killington homeowners who ran a variety of non-ski-related businesses - bought the mountains. After 51 years as part of a multi-mountain ownership group, Killington (its relationship to neighboring Pico notwithstanding), was once again independent.It was all so improbable. Out-of-state operators had purchased five of Vermont's large ski areas in recent years: Colorado-based Vail Resorts bought Stowe in 2017, Okemo in 2018, and Mount Snow in 2019; Denver-based Alterra claimed Sugarbush in 2019; and Utah-based Pacific Group Resorts added Jay Peak to their small portfolio in 2022. Very few ski areas have ever entered the corporate matrix and re-emerged as independents. Grand Targhee, Wyoming; Waterville Valley, New Hampshire; and Mountain Creek, New Jersey (technically owned by multimountain operator Snow Partners) are exceptions spun off from larger companies. But mostly, once a larger entity absorbed a ski area, it stays locked in the multimountain universe forever.So what would this mean? For the largest and busiest mountain in the eastern United States to be independent? Did this, along with Powdr's intentions to sell Mount Bachelor (since rescinded), Eldora (sale in process), and Silver Star (no update), mark a reversal in the consolidation trend that had gathered 30 percent of America's ski areas under the umbrella of a multi-mountain operator? Did Killington's group of wealthy-but-not-Bezos-wealthy investors set an alternate blueprint for large-mountain ownership, especially when considered alongside the sale of Jackson Hole to a similar group the year before? Had the Ikon Pass – that harbinger of mass-market pass domination that had forced the we-better-join-them sales of Crystal Mountain, Washington and Sugarbush – inadvertently become a reliable revenue pipeline that made independence more viable? And would Killington, well-managed and constantly improving, backslide under cowboy owners who want to Q-Burke the place in their image?We're a year in now, and we have some clarity on these questions, along with two new chairlifts (Superstar this year, Snowdon next), 1,000 new snowguns, a revitalized Skyeship Gondola, and progressing plans on the East's first true ski village. Locals seem happy, management seems happy, the owners seem happy. Easy enough, Gross points out in our interview, when winter hits deep like the last one did. But can we keep the party going indefinitely? It was time for a check-in.What we talked aboutA strong first winter under independent ownership; what spring skiing off Canyon lift told us about the importance of Superstar; “it's an incredibly complex operation”; letting the smart people do their jobs; Killington's surprise spin-off from a multi-mountain operator; “our job is to keep the honeymoon going”; Superstar's six-pack upgrade; why six-packs are probably Killington's lift-upgrade future; why Pico is demolishing the Bonanza lift for a covered carpet; why Superstar won't have bubbles; where bubbles might make sense in a future lift; why ski areas can no longer run snowmaking under newly constructed chairlifts; why Superstar is a Doppelmayr machine after Killington installed a brand-new Leitner-Poma six at Snowdon in 2018; long- and short-term Superstar impacts to Killington's long season; long-term thoughts around early-season walkway access to North Ridge; Skyeship Gondola upgrades, including $5 million in new cabins; what 1,000 new snowguns means in practice; why Killington sold the Wobbly Barn; considering Killington as a business and investment; how Killington is a different financial beast from other Vermont ski areas; how close Killington was to going unlimited on Ikon Pass; Phill's journey to buying Killington; Devil's Fiddle and why sometimes things that don't make sense financially make sense anyway; “we want to own this for generations to come”; a village layout and timeline update – “we want to make sure that this is something that's additive to the ski experience” even if you don't own within it; “Great Gulf wants this [village] to be competitive for the western resorts”; “we don't want to change what Pico is”; how piping water over from Killington has reinvigorated and stabilized Pico; why Killington and Pico remained on Ikon Pass post-sale and probably will for the foreseeable future; is Ikon helping big ski areas stay independent?; Killington's steady rise in lift ticket prices; future lift upgrades and why the Snowdon Triple is next up for a replacement.What I got wrong* File “opinionation” under LOL I'm Dumb Talking Is Hard* I said that former Killington owner Powdr had “just sold” Eldora, but that's not accurate: in July, the town of Nederland, Colorado, announced their intent to purchase the ski area. The sales process is ongoing.Podcast NotesOn previous Killington podsOn Gross' purchase of Killington and PicoOn ANSI chairlift standardsWe get a bit in the weeds with a reference to “ANSI standards” for chairlifts. ANSI is the American National Standards Institute, a nonprofit organization that sets voluntary but widely adopted standards for everything from office furniture to electrical systems to safety signage in the United States. The ANSI standard for lifts, according to a blog post describing the code's 2022 update, is “developed by the National Ski Areas Association (NSAA), [and] establishes standard requirements for the design, manufacture, construction, operation, and maintenance of passenger ropeways.” On Killington's long seasonsKillington often opens in October (though it has not done so since 2018), and closes in June (three straight years before a deliberately truncated 2024-25 season to begin demolition of the Superstar chair). List of Killington open and close dates since 1987-88.On Win Smith and Killington and SugarbushOn Killington's villageThe East needs more of this:On Killington's peak lift ticket pricesPer New England Ski History:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

A visit to Jay Peak ski resort to see how goats are being used to clear weeds and shrubs from the slopes. Plus, Sen. Bernie Sanders implores Democrats to be prepared for a prolonged federal government shutdown unless Republicans agree to extend health care subsidies in the Affordable Care Act, Dartmouth College is among a new group of higher education schools being asked to commit to President Trump's political priorities in exchange for more favorable access to federal money, Gov. Scott appoints a former federal prosecutor to fill a judicial vacancy on the Vermont Superior Court, and a new Dartmouth study reveals whether dog or cat owners are more likely to donate to charities.  

A new state grant is funding pilot projects across Vermont to swap weed whackers for goats and sheep in power line right of ways and ski trails.

Welcome to mid-spring here at The High Route Podcast. Here in the Pacific Northwest, ski crampon season. It is also the season to unearth an interview with Fay Manners, a British alpinist and ski mountaineer, recorded late last summer. Manners caught my attention for one reason: she practices the aforementioned mountain disciplines at a high level. To optimize mountain conditions in winter and the shoulder seasons, it helps to be skilled at rock, ice, and mixed climbing, and when the snow is stable and conditions prime, slapping skis or a snowboard on the feet makes sense, too. Over the years, British alpinist/ski-alpinist Fay Manners has built up a reputation as a go-getter. Which is to say that Manners comes with the full mountain-skills package.In 2024, Manners and Tom Lafaille opened up the Stratonspherique ski line on the Aiguille d'Argentière. On the alpinism side, Manners has the first female ascent of the Phantom Direct route on the south face of the Grand Jorasses. She also climbed the North Face of the Eiger, the American Direct on the Dru, and the Walker Spur on the Grandes Jorasses.Far from exuding the vibe of an adrenaline junkie, Manners imparts an ethos of building skills, becoming fit, and knowing when one is at their limits, and using those skills to—and again, we'll emphasize multi-disciplinarian skills—to move efficiently and safely in the hills.Manners has had her share of close calls. Having recorded this interview last summer, we had kept an eye on Manners and her adventures. When this headline came across a newsfeed, there was a sinking feeling: Two climbers go missing. These stories often don't end well. Manners and her partner, American alpinist Michelle Dvorak, were rescued three days later. The pair lost much of their gear, including their shelter, when rockfall severed a haul line. For those of us following thousands of miles away, the rescue came as a huge relief. On flat ground, Manners is trained and has worked as a data analyst; on less flat ground, she's come into her own as a mountain athlete. But for those just being introduced to the mountains, Manners is a reminder that mountain pedigree is what you make of it. In her twenties, Manners began tapping into snow and climbing while working as a data analyst in New York City. From Vermont's Jay Peak to New York's Gunks, she's lived a full-value life in Alaska, Pakistan, and near her adopted home in Chamonix. Thanks for listening, and have a good day, The High Route Team.   If you are new to The High Route, we are a reader and listener-supported enterprise focusing on human-powered turn making. Our mission is simple, but it takes real deal calorie burning to piece it all together.We are also excited to announce Issue 1.0 of The High Route magazine is shipping. Fancy paper. Good reads. High-octane photos. And some fine mountain ranges. And turns. You can learn more about our subscription options here.The theme music for The High Route Podcast comes from Storms in the Hill Country and the album The Self Transforming (Thank you, Jens Langsjoen). You can find a link to the album here—there are so many good songs on this album. And if you think you've spotted a UFO in the past or visited the 7th dimension, "Beautiful Alien" is a good tune to start with.

Send us some fan mail here!Paul steps in as an "intern" on the PUDs Podcast without Josh and joins as a full-co-host with Nick to chat with Lyla "Sugar" Harrod! Lyla; commonly known by her trail-name "Sugar", is the first transgender woman to become a Triple Crowner, and she recently created and hiked the incredible "Divide to Crest" route!Nick takes the long ride to Jay Peak where there's been over 400 inches of snowfall this season, Paul takes on the ladders and tight-spaces of the 52-with-a-View-peaks Morgan and Percival, makes it to North Twin, and the boys have an outstanding conversation with Lyla about her amazing hiking accomplishments, taking the long-trails less-traveled, creating entirely new hiking routes, route-creators, hiking in the desert, sobriety, making a gender transition, and stepping into your true-self and seizing your full-potential, on this kick-Nick-under-the-table-if-he-gets-too-excited-whilst-talking-about-hiking-episode of the PUDs Podcast!Nick's Music Moment:Real Life - Hazel English - 2024Paulie's Playlist:Neil Diamond & Jim CroceEpisode Links:Mount Morgan & Mount Percival AllTrails RouteBay Circuit Trail WebsiteLyla's InstagramBackpacker Magazine Article on Lyla's Divide to Crest RouteNotch Hostel Fireside Chats InformationFollow us on Instagram: @pudspodcastFollow us on Facebook: PUDs PodcastSubscribe to Nick's YouTube Channel: Nick in NatureFollow Nick on Instagram: @nick__in__natureFollow Josh on Instagram: @josh___talksEmail us at: pudspod@outlook.comRecorded and Produced in Black Cat Studios by Nick Sidla© 2025 PUDs Podcast

For a limited time, upgrade to ‘The Storm's' paid tier for $5 per month or $55 per year. You'll also receive a free year of Slopes Premium, a $29.99 value - valid for annual subscriptions only. Monthly subscriptions do not qualify for free Slopes promotion. Valid for new subscriptions only.WhoIain Martin, Host of The Ski PodcastRecorded onJanuary 30, 2025About The Ski PodcastFrom the show's website:Want to [know] more about the world of skiing? The Ski Podcast is a UK-based podcast hosted by Iain Martin.With different guests every episode, we cover all aspects of skiing and snowboarding from resorts to racing, Ski Sunday to slush.In 2021, we were voted ‘Best Wintersports Podcast‘ in the Sports Podcast Awards. In 2023, we were shortlisted as ‘Best Broadcast Programme' in the Travel Media Awards.Why I interviewed himWe did a swap. Iain hosted me on his show in January (I also hosted Iain in January, but since The Storm sometimes moves at the pace of mammal gestation, here we are at the end of March; Martin published our episode the day after we recorded it).But that's OK (according to me), because our conversation is evergreen. Martin is embedded in EuroSki the same way that I cycle around U.S. AmeriSki. That we wander from similarly improbable non-ski outposts – Brighton, England and NYC – is a funny coincidence. But what interested me most about a potential podcast conversation is the Encyclopedia EuroSkiTannica stored in Martin's brain.I don't understand skiing in Europe. It is too big, too rambling, too interconnected, too above-treeline, too transit-oriented, too affordable, too absent the Brobot ‘tude that poisons so much of the American ski experience. The fact that some French idiot is facing potential jail time for launching a snowball into a random grandfather's skull (filming the act and posting it on TikTok, of course) only underscores my point: in America, we would cancel the grandfather for not respecting the struggle so obvious in the boy's act of disobedience. In a weird twist for a ski writer, I am much more familiar with summer Europe than winter Europe. I've skied the continent a couple of times, but warm-weather cross-continental EuroTreks by train and by car have occupied months of my life. When I try to understand EuroSki, my brain short-circuits. I tease the Euros because each European ski area seems to contain between two and 27 distinct ski areas, because the trail markings are the wrong color, because they speak in the strange code of the “km” and “cm” - but I'm really making fun of myself for Not Getting It. Martin gets it. And he good-naturedly walks me through a series of questions that follow this same basic pattern: “In America, we charge $109 for a hamburger that tastes like it's been pulled out of a shipping container that went overboard in 1944. But I hear you have good and cheap food in Europe – true?” I don't mind sounding like a d*****s if the result is good information for all of us, and thankfully I achieved both of those things on this podcast.What we talked aboutThe European winter so far; how a UK-based skier moves back and forth to the Alps; easy car-free travel from the U.S. directly to Alps ski areas; is ski traffic a thing in Europe?; EuroSki 101; what does “ski area” mean in Europe; Euro snow pockets; climate change realities versus media narratives in Europe; what to make of ski areas closing around the Alps; snowmaking in Europe; comparing the Euro stereotype of the leisurely skier to reality; an aging skier population; Euro liftline queuing etiquette and how it mirrors a nation's driving culture; “the idea that you wouldn't bring the bar down is completely alien to me; I mean everybody brings the bar down on the chairlift”; why an Epic or Ikon Pass may not be your best option to ski in Europe; why lift ticket prices are so much cheaper in Europe than in the U.S.; Most consumers “are not even aware” that Vail has started purchasing Swiss resorts; ownership structure at Euro resorts; Vail to buy Verbier?; multimountain pass options in Europe; are Euros buying Epic and Ikon to ski locally or to travel to North America?; must-ski European ski areas; Euro ski-guide culture; and quirky ski areas.What I got wrongWe discussed Epic Pass' lodging requirement for Verbier, which is in effect for this winter, but which Vail removed for the 2025-26 ski season.Why now was a good time for this interviewI present to you, again, the EuroSki Chart – a list of all 26 European ski areas that have aligned themselves with a U.S.-based multi-mountain pass:The large majority of these have joined Ski NATO (a joke, not a political take Brah), in the past five years. And while purchasing a U.S. megapass is not necessary to access EuroHills in the same way it is to ski the Rockies – doing so may, in fact, be counterproductive – just the notion of having access to these Connecticut-sized ski areas via a pass that you're buying anyway is enough to get people considering a flight east for their turns.And you know what? They should. At this point, a mass abandonment of the Mountain West by the tourists that sustain it is the only thing that may drive the region to seriously reconsider the robbery-by-you-showed-up-here-all-stupid lift ticket prices, car-centric transit infrastructure, and sclerotic building policies that are making American mountain towns impossibly expensive and inconvenient to live in or to visit. In many cases, a EuroSkiTrip costs far less than an AmeriSki trip - especially if you're not the sort to buy a ski pass in March 2025 so that you can ski in February 2026. And though the flights will generally cost more, the logistics of airport-to-ski-resort-and-back generally make more sense. In Europe they have trains. In Europe those trains stop in villages where you can walk to your hotel and then walk to the lifts the next morning. In Europe you can walk up to the ticket window and trade a block of cheese for a lift ticket. In Europe they put the bar down. In Europe a sandwich, brownie, and a Coke doesn't cost $152. And while you can spend $152 on a EuroLunch, it probably means that you drank seven liters of wine and will need a sled evac to the village.“Oh so why don't you just go live there then if it's so perfect?”Shut up, Reductive Argument Bro. Everyplace is great and also sucks in its own special way. I'm just throwing around contrasts.There are plenty of things I don't like about EuroSki: the emphasis on pistes, the emphasis on trams, the often curt and indifferent employees, the “injury insurance” that would require a special session of the European Union to pay out a claim. And the lack of trees. Especially the lack of trees. But more families are opting for a week in Europe over the $25,000 Experience of a Lifetime in the American West, and I totally understand why.A quote often attributed to Winston Churchill reads, “You can always trust the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the alternatives.” Unfortunately, it appears to be apocryphal. But I wish it wasn't. Because it's true. And I do think we'll eventually figure out that there is a continent-wide case study in how to retrofit our mountain towns for a more cost- and transit-accessible version of lift-served skiing. But it's gonna take a while.Podcast NotesOn U.S. ski areas opening this winter that haven't done so “in a long time”A strong snow year has allowed at least 11 U.S. ski areas to open after missing one or several winters, including:* Cloudmont, Alabama (yes I'm serious)* Pinnacle, Maine* Covington and Sault Seal, ropetows outfit in Michigan's Upper Peninsula* Norway Mountain, Michigan – resurrected by new owner after multi-year closure* Tower Mountain, a ropetow bump in Michigan's Lower Peninsula* Bear Paw, Montana* Hatley Pointe, North Carolina opened under new ownership, who took last year off to gut-renovate the hill* Warner Canyon, Oregon, an all-natural-snow, volunteer-run outfit, opened in December after a poor 2023-24 snow year.* Bellows Falls ski tow, a molehill run by the Rockingham Recreation in Vermont, opened for the first time in five years after a series of snowy weeks across New England* Lyndon Outing Club, another volunteer-run ropetow operation in Vermont, sat out last winter with low snow but opened this yearOn the “subway map” of transit-accessible Euro skiingI mean this is just incredible:The map lives on Martin's Ski Flight Free site, which encourages skiers to reduce their carbon footprints. I am not good at doing this, largely because such a notion is a fantasy in America as presently constructed.But just imagine a similar system in America. The nation is huge, of course, and we're not building a functional transcontinental passenger railroad overnight (or maybe ever). But there are several areas of regional density where such networks could, at a minimum, connect airports or city centers with destination ski areas, including:* Reno Airport (from the east), and the San Francisco Bay area (to the west) to the ring of more than a dozen Tahoe resorts (or at least stops at lake- or interstate-adjacent Sugar Bowl, Palisades, Homewood, Northstar, Mt. Rose, Diamond Peak, and Heavenly)* Denver Union Station and Denver airport to Loveland, Keystone, Breck, Copper, Vail, Beaver Creek, and - a stretch - Aspen and Steamboat, with bus connections to A-Basin, Ski Cooper, and Sunlight* SLC airport east to Snowbird, Alta, Solitude, Brighton, Park City, and Deer Valley, and north to Snowbasin and Powder Mountain* Penn Station in Manhattan up along Vermont's Green Mountain Spine: Mount Snow, Stratton, Bromley, Killington, Pico, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Bolton Valley, Stowe, Smugglers' Notch, Jay Peak, with bus connections to Magic and Middlebury Snowbowl* Boston up the I-93 corridor: Tenney, Waterville Valley, Loon, Cannon, and Bretton Woods, with a spur to Conway and Cranmore, Attitash, Wildcat, and Sunday River; bus connections to Black New Hampshire, Sunapee, Gunstock, Ragged, and Mount AbramYes, there's the train from Denver to Winter Park (and ambitions to extend the line to Steamboat), which is terrific, but placing that itsy-bitsy spur next to the EuroSystem and saying “look at our neato train” is like a toddler flexing his toy jet to the pilots as he boards a 757. And they smile and say, “Whoa there, Shooter! Now have a seat while we burn off 4,000 gallons of jet fuel accelerating this f****r to 500 miles per hour.”On the number of ski areas in EuropeI've detailed how difficult it is to itemize the 500-ish active ski areas in America, but the task is nearly incomprehensible in Europe, which has as many as eight times the number of ski areas. Here are a few estimates:* Skiresort.info counts 3,949 ski areas (as of today; the number changes daily) in Europe: list | map* Wikipedia doesn't provide a number, but it does have a very long list* Statista counts a bit more than 2,200, but their list excludes most of Eastern EuropeOn Euro non-ski media and climate change catastropheOf these countless European ski areas, a few shutter or threaten to each year. The resulting media cycle is predictable and dumb. In The Snow concisely summarizes how this pattern unfolds by analyzing coverage of the recent near loss of L'Alpe du Grand Serre, France (emphasis mine):A ski resort that few people outside its local vicinity had ever heard of was the latest to make headlines around the world a month ago as it announced it was going to cease ski operations.‘French ski resort in Alps shuts due to shortage of snow' reported The Independent, ‘Another European ski resort is closing due to lack of snow' said Time Out, The Mirror went for ”Devastation” as another European ski resort closes due to vanishing snow‘ whilst The Guardian did a deeper dive with, ‘Fears for future of ski tourism as resorts adapt to thawing snow season.' The story also appeared in dozens more publications around the world.The only problem is that the ski area in question, L'Alpe du Grand Serre, has decided it isn't closing its ski area after all, at least not this winter.Instead, after the news of the closure threat was publicised, the French government announced financial support, as did the local municipality of La Morte, and a number of major players in the ski industry. In addition, a public crowdfunding campaign raised almost €200,000, prompting the officials who made the original closure decision to reconsider. Things will now be reassessed in a year's time.There has not been the same global media coverage of the news that L'Alpe du Grand Serre isn't closing after all.It's not the first resort where money has been found to keep slopes open after widespread publicity of a closure threat. La Chapelle d'Abondance was apparently on the rocks in 2020 but will be fully open this winter and similarly Austria's Heiligenblut which was said to be at risk of permanently closure in the summer will be open as normal.Of course, ski areas do permanently close, just like any business, and climate change is making the multiple challenges that smaller, lower ski areas face, even more difficult. But in the near-term bigger problems are often things like justifying spends on essential equipment upgrades, rapidly increasing power costs and changing consumer habits that are the bigger problems right now. The latter apparently exacerbated by media stories implying that ski holidays are under severe threat by climate change.These increasingly frequent stories always have the same structure of focusing on one small ski area that's in trouble, taken from the many thousands in the Alps that few regular skiers have heard of. The stories imply (by ensuring that no context is provided), that this is a major resort and typical of many others. Last year some reports implied, again by avoiding giving any context, that a ski area in trouble that is actually close to Rome, was in the Alps.This is, of course, not to pretend that climate change does not pose an existential threat to ski holidays, but just to say that ski resorts have been closing for many decades for multiple reasons and that most of these reports do not give all the facts or paint the full picture.On no cars in ZermattIf the Little Cottonwood activists really cared about the environment in their precious canyon, they wouldn't be advocating for alternate rubber-wheeled transit up to Alta and Snowbird – they'd be demanding that the road be closed and replaced by a train or gondola or both, and that the ski resorts become a pedestrian-only enclave dotted with only as many electric vehicles as it took to manage the essential business of the towns and the ski resorts.If this sounds improbable, just look to Zermatt, which has banned gas cars for decades. Skiers arrive by train. Nearly 6,000 people live there year-round. It is amazing what humans can build when the car is considered as an accessory to life, rather than its central organizing principle.On driving in EuropeDriving in Europe is… something else. I've driven in, let's see: Iceland, Portugal, Spain, France, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, and Montenegro. That last one is the scariest but they're all a little scary. Drivers' speeds seem to be limited by nothing other than physics, passing on blind curves is common even on mountain switchbacks, roads outside of major arterials often collapse into one lane, and Euros for some reason don't believe in placing signs at intersections to indicate street names. Thank God for GPS. I'll admit that it's all a little thrilling once the disorientation wears off, and there are things to love about driving in Europe: roundabouts are used in place of traffic lights wherever possible, the density of cars tends to be less (likely due to the high cost of gas and plentiful mass transit options), sprawl tends to be more contained, the limited-access highways are extremely well-kept, and the drivers on those limited-access highways actually understand what the lanes are for (slow, right; fast, left).It may seem contradictory that I am at once a transit advocate and an enthusiastic road-tripper. But I've lived in New York City, home of the United States' best mass-transit system, for 23 years, and have owned a car for 19 of them. There is a logic here: in general, I use the subway or my bicycle to move around the city, and the car to get out of it (this is the only way to get to most ski areas in the region, at least midweek). I appreciate the options, and I wish more parts of America offered a better mix.On chairs without barsIt's a strange anachronism that the United States is still home to hundreds of chairlifts that lack safety bars. ANSI standards now require them on new lift builds (as far as I can tell), but many chairlifts built without bars from the 1990s and earlier appear to have been grandfathered into our contemporary system. This is not the case in the Eastern U.S. where, as far as I'm aware, every chairlift with the exception of a handful in Pennsylvania have safety bars – New York and many New England states require them by law (and require riders to use them). Things get dicey in the Midwest, which has, as a region, been far slower to upgrade its lift fleets than bigger mountains in the East and West. Many ski areas, however, have retrofit their old lifts with bars – I was surprised to find them on the lifts at Sundown, Iowa; Chestnut, Illinois; and Mont du Lac, Wisconsin, for example. Vail and Alterra appear to retrofit all chairlifts with safety bars once they purchase a ski area. But many ski areas across the Mountain West still spin old chairs, including, surprisingly, dozens of mountains in California, Oregon, and Washington, states that tends to have more East Coast-ish outlooks on safety and regulation.On Compagnie des AlpesAccording to Martin, the closest thing Europe has to a Vail- or Alterra-style conglomerate is Compagnie des Alpes, which operates (but does not appear to own) 10 ski areas in the French Alps, and holds ownership stakes in five more. It's kind of an amazing list:Here's the company's acquisition timeline, which includes the ski areas, along with a bunch of amusement parks and hotels:Clearly the path of least resistance to a EuroVail conflagration would be to shovel this pile of coal into the furnace. Martin referenced Tignes' forthcoming exit from the group, to join forces with ski resort Sainte-Foy on June 1, 2026 – teasing a smaller potential EuroVail acquisition. Tignes, however, would not be the first resort to exit CdA's umbrella – Les 2 Alpes left in 2020.On EuroSkiPassesThe EuroMegaPass market is, like EuroSkiing itself, unintelligible to Americans (at least to this American). There are, however, options. Martin offers the Swiss-centric Magic Pass as perhaps the most prominent. It offers access to 92 ski areas (map). You are probably expecting me to make a chart. I will not be making a chart.S**t I need to publish this article before I cave to my irrepressible urge to make a chart.OK this podcast is already 51 days old do not make a chart you moron.I think we're good here.I hope.I will also not be making a chart to track the 12 ski resorts accessible on Austria's Ski Plus City Pass Stubai Innsbruck Unlimited Freedom Pass.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

For a limited time, upgrade to ‘The Storm's' paid tier for $5 per month or $55 per year. You'll also receive a free year of Slopes Premium, a $29.99 value - valid for annual subscriptions only. Monthly subscriptions do not qualify for free Slopes promotion. Valid for new subscriptions only.WhoStuart Winchester, Founder, Editor & Host of The Storm Skiing Journal & PodcastRecorded onMarch 4, 2025Editor's note1) The headline was not my idea; 2) Erik said he would join me as the guest for episode 199 if he could interview me for episode 200; 3) I was like “sure Brah”; 4) since he did the interview, I asked Erik to write the “Why I interviewed him” section; 5) this episode is now available to stream on Disney+; 6) but no really you can watch it on YouTube (please subscribe); 7) if you don't care about this episode that's OK because there are 199 other ones that are actually about snosportskiing; 8) and I have a whole bunch more recorded that I'll drop right after this one; 9) except that one that I terminally screwed up; 10) “which one?” you ask. Well I'll tell that humiliating story when I'm ready.Why I interviewed him, by Erik MogensenI met Stuart when he was skiing at Copper Mountain with his family. At lunch that day I made a deal. I would agree to do the first podcast of my career, but only if I had the opportunity reverse the role and interview him. I thought both my interview, and his, would be at least five years away. 14 months later, you are reading this.As an accomplished big-city corporate PR guy often [occasionally] dressed in a suit, he got tired of listening to the biggest, tallest, snowiest, ski content that was always spoon-fed to his New York City self. Looking for more than just “Stoke,” Stu has built the Storm Skiing Journal into a force that I believe has assumed an important stewardship role for skiing. Along the way he has occasionally made us cringe, and has always made us laugh.Many people besides myself apparently agree. Stuart has eloquently mixed an industry full of big, type-A egos competing for screentime on the next episode of Game of Thrones, with consumers that have been overrun with printed magazines that show up in the mail, or social media click-bate, but nothing in between. He did it by being as authentic and independent as they come, thus building trust with everyone from the most novice ski consumer to nearly all of the expert operators and owners on the continent.But don't get distracted by the “Winchester Style” of poking fun of ski bro and his group of bro brahs like someone took over your mom's basement with your used laptop, and a new nine-dollar website. Once you get over the endless scrolling required to get beyond the colorful spreadsheets, this thing is fun AND worthwhile to read and listen to. This guy went to Columbia for journalism and it shows. This guy cares deeply about what he does, and it shows.Stuart has brought something to ski journalism that we didn't even know was missing, Not only did Stuart find out what it was, he created and scaled a solution. On his 200th podcast I dig into why and how he did it.What we talked aboutHow Erik talked me into being a guest on my own podcast; the history of The Storm Skiing Podcast and why I launched with Northeast coverage; why the podcast almost didn't happen; why Killington was The Storm's first pod; I didn't want to go to college but it happened anyway; why I moved to New York; why a ski writer lives in Brooklyn; “I started The Storm because I wanted to read it”; why I have no interest in off-resort skiing; why pay-to-play isn't journalism; the good and the awful about social media; I hate debt; working at the NBA; the tech innovation that allowed me to start The Storm; activating The Storm's paywall; puzzling through subscriber retention; critical journalism as an alien concept to the ski industry; Bro beef explained; what's behind skiing's identity crisis; why I don't read my social media comments; why I couldn't get ski area operators to do podcasts online in 2019; how the digital world has reframed how we think about skiing; why I don't write about weather; what I like about ski areas; ski areas as art; why the Pass Tracker 5001 looks like a piece of crap and probably always will; “skiing is fun, reading about it should be too”; literary inspirations for The Storm; being critical without being a tool; and why readers should trust me.Podcast notesOn The New England Lost Ski Areas ProjectThe New England Lost Ski Areas Project is still very retro looking. Storm Skiing Podcast episode number three, with site founder Jeremy Davis, is still one of my favorites:On my sled evac at Black Mountain of MaineYeah I talk about this all the time but in case you missed the previous five dozen reminders:On my timelineMy life, in brief (we reference all of these things on the pod):* 1992 – Try skiing on a school bus trip to now-defunct Mott Mountain, Michigan; suck at it* 1993 – Try skiing again, at Snow Snake, Michigan; don't suck as much* 1993 - Invent Doritos* 1994 – Receive first pair of skis for Christmas* 1995 – Graduate high school* 1995 - Become first human to live on Saturn for one month without the aid of oxygen* 1995-98 – Attend Delta College* 1997 - Set MLB homerun record, with 82 regular-season bombs, while winning Cy Young Award with .04 ERA and 743 batters struck out* 1998-00 – Attend University of Michigan* 1998-2007 - Work various restaurant server jobs in Michigan and NYC* 2002 – Move to Manhattan* 2003 - Invent new phone/computer hybrid with touchscreen; changes modern life instantly* 2003-07 – Work as English teacher at Cascade High School on Manhattan's Lower East Side* 2003-05 – Participate in New York City Teaching Fellows program via Pace University* 2004 - Successfully clone frozen alien cells that fell to Earth via meteorite; grows into creature that levels San Antonio with fire breath* 2006-08 – Columbia Journalism School* 2007-12 – Work at NBA league office* 2008 – Daughter is born* 2010 - Complete the 10-10-10 challenge, mastering 10 forms of martial arts and 10 non-human languages in 2010* 2013 – Work at AIG* 2014-2024 – Work at Viacom/Paramount* 2015 - Formally apologize to the people of Great Britain for my indecencies at the Longminster Day Victory Parade in 1947* 2016 – Son is born; move to Brooklyn* 2019 – Launch The Storm* 2022 – Take The Storm paid* 2023 - Discover hidden sea-floor city populated by talking alligators * 2024 – The Storm becomes my full-time job* 2025 - Take Storm sabbatical to qualify for the 50-meter hurdles at the 2028 Summer OlympicsOn LeBron's “Decision”After spending his first several seasons playing for the Cleveland Cavaliers, LeBron announced his 2010 departure for the Miami Heat in his notorious The Decision special.On MGoBlog and other influencesI've written about MGoBlog's influence on The Storm in the past:The University of Michigan's official athletic site is mgoblue.com. Thus, MGoBlog – get it? Clever, right? The site is, actually, brilliant. For Michigan sports fans, it's a cultural touchstone and reference point, comprehensive and hilarious. Everyone reads it. Everyone. It's like it's 1952 and everyone in town reads the same newspaper, only the paper is always and only about Michigan sports and the town is approximately three million ballsports fans spread across the planet. We don't all read it because we're all addicted to sports. We all read MGoBlog because the site is incredibly fun, with its own culture, vocabulary, and inside jokes born of the shared frustrations and particulars of Michigan (mostly football, basketball, and hockey) fandom.Brian Cook is the site's founder and best writer (I also recommend BiSB, who writes the hysterical Opponent Watch series). Here is a recent and random sample – sportsballtalk made engaging:It was 10-10 and it was stupid. Like half the games against Indiana, it was stupid and dumb. At some point I saw a highlight from that Denard game against Indiana where IU would score on a 15-play march and then Denard would immediately run for a 70 yard touchdown. "God, that game was stupid," I thought. Flinging the ball in the general direction of Junior Hemingway and hoping something good would happen, sort of thing. Charting 120 defensive plays, sort of thing. Craig Roh playing linebacker, sort of thing.Don't get me started about #chaosteam, or overtimes, or anything else. My IQ is already dropping precipitously. Any more exposure to Michigan-Indiana may render me unable to finish this column. (I would still be able to claim that MSU was defeated with dignity, if that was my purpose in life.)I had hoped that a little JJ McCarthy-led mediation in the locker room would straighten things out. Michigan did suffer through a scary event when Mike Hart collapsed on the sideline. This is a completely valid reason you may not be executing football with military precision, even setting aside whatever dorfy bioweapon the Hoosiers perfected about ten years ago.Those hopes seemed dashed when Michigan was inexplicably offsides on a short-yardage punt on which they didn't even bother to rush. A touchback turned into a punt downed at the two, and then Blake Corum committed a false start and Cornelius Johnson dropped something that was either a chunk play or a 96-yard touchdown. Johnson started hopping up and down near the sideline, veritably slobbering with self-rage. The slope downwards to black pits became very slippery.JJ McCarthy said "namaste."Cook is consistent. I knew I could simply grab the first thing from his latest post and it would be excellent, and it was. Even if you know nothing about football, you know that's strong writing.In The Storm's early days, I would often describe my ambitions – to those familiar with both sites – as wanting “to create MGoBlog for Northeast skiing.” What I meant was that I wanted something that would be consistent, engaging, and distinct from competing platforms. Skiing has enough stoke machines and press-release reprint factories. It needed something different. MGoBlog showed me what that something could be.On being critical without being a toolThis is the Burke example Erik was referring to:The town of Burke, named for Sir Edmund Burke of the English Parliament, was chartered in 1782. That was approximately the same year that court-appointed receiver Michael Goldberg began seeking a buyer for Burke Mountain, after an idiot named Ariel Quiros nearly sent the ski area (along with Jay Peak) to the graveyard in an $80 million EB-5 visa scandal.Now, several industrial revolutions and world wars later, Goldberg says he may finally have a buyer for the ski area. But he said the same thing in 2024. And in 2023. And also, famously, in 1812, though the news was all but lost amid that year's war headlines.Whether or not Burke ever finds a permanent owner (Goldberg has actually been in charge since 2016), nothing will change the fact that this is one hell of a ski area. While it's not as snowy as its neighbors stacked along the Green Mountain Spine to its west, Burke gets its share of the white and fluffy. And while the mountain is best-known as the home of racing institution Burke Mountain Academy, the everyskier's draw here is the endless, tangled, spectacular glade network, lappable off of the 1,581-vertical-foot Mid-Burke Express Quad.Corrections* I worked for a long time in corporate communications, HR, and marketing, but not ever exactly in “PR,” as Erik framed it. But I also didn't really describe it to him very well because I don't really care and I'm just glad it's all over.* I made a vague reference to the NBA pulling its All-Star game out of Atlanta. I was thinking of the league's 2016 decision to move the 2017 All-Star game out of Charlotte over the state's “bathroom bill.” This is not a political take I'm just explaining what I was thinking about.* I said that Jiminy Peak's season pass cost $1,200. The current early-bird price for a 2025-26 pass is $1,051 for an adult unlimited season pass. The pass is scheduled to hit $1,410 after Oct. 15.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Hannah Kearney is one of those perfectionist type people who are good at whatever they do because not only are they talented, not only do they eat, sleep and breathe their sport, but they also outwork everyone in the pursuit of crushing their goals on the way to greatness. And Hannah was great, 74 World Cup Podiums, 46 wins, Crystal Globes, and an Olympic Gold and Bronze medals. Her intensity and competitiveness are what make Hannah and this podcast so enjoyable and after listening, you'll know why she's getting into the US Ski and Snowboard Hall of Fame this month. Hannah Kearney Show Notes: 4:00: Hall of Fame, Norwich Olympians, Jay Peak, being competitive, good at other sports, was she the weird sports kid, Waterville Valley, and family support 21:00:   Stanley:  The brand that invented the category! Only the best for Powell Movement listeners.  Check out Stanley1913.com   Best Day Brewing:  All of the flavor of your favorite IPA or Kolsch, without the alcohol, the calories or sugar. Ski Idaho:  The best, least crowded, skiing in the world, happens in Idaho 24:00:  Forerunning the Olympics in SLC, making the US Team at 16, relationships on the team, Dual Moguls, freeskiing on the road, did she party, the pressure at the Torino Olympics, knee injury, concussion,  and how it made her better     40:00:   Elan Skis:  Over 75 years of innovation that makes you better. Outdoor Research: Click here for 25% off Outdoor Research products (not valid on sale items or pro products) 42:00: Crystal Globes, dialing in her flip, Vancouver 2010, winning gold, why she didn't cash in, sponsors, and top 3 experiences 54:00: Another injury, Sochi, retirement, and Nick Preston 61:00: Inappropriate Questions with Nick Preston

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and to support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.WhoErik Mogensen, Director of Indy Pass, founder of Entabeni Systems, and temporary owner and General Manager of Black Mountain, New HampshireRecorded onFebruary 25, 2025About Entabeni SystemsEntabeni provides software and hardware engineering exclusively for independent ski areas. Per the company's one-page website:Entabeni: noun; meaning: zulu - "the mountain"We take pride in providing world class software and hardware engineering in true ski bum style.About Indy PassIndy Pass delivers two days each at 181 Alpine and 44 cross-country ski areas, plus discounts at eight Allied resorts and four Cat-skiing outfits for the 2024-25 ski season. Indy has announced several additional partners for the 2025-26 ski season. Here is the probable 2025-26 Alpine roster as of March 2, 2025 (click through for most up-to-date roster):Doug Fish, who has appeared on this podcast four times, founded Indy Pass in 2019. Mogensen, via Entabeni, purchased the pass in 2023.About Black Mountain, New HampshireClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Indy PassLocated in: Jackson, New HampshireYear founded: 1935Pass affiliations: Indy Pass and Indy+ Pass – 2 days, no blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Attitash (:14), Wildcat (:19), Cranmore (:19), Bretton Woods (:40), King Pine (:43), Pleasant Mountain (:48), Sunday River (1:00), Cannon (1:02), Mt. Abram (1:03)Base elevation: 1,250 feetSummit elevation: 2,350 feetVertical drop: 1,100 feetSkiable acres: 140Average annual snowfall: 125 inchesTrail count: 45Lift count: 5 (1 triple, 1 double, 1 J-bar, 1 platter pull, 1 handletow – view Lift Blog's inventory of Black Mountain's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himI first spoke to Mogensen in the summer of 2020. He was somewhere out west, running something called Entabeni Systems, and he had insight into a story that I was working on. Indy Pass founder and owner-at-the-time Doug Fish had introduced us. The conversation was helpful. I wrote the story and moved on.Mogensen didn't. He kept calling. Kept emailing. There was something he wanted me to understand. Not about any particular story that I was writing, but about skiing as a whole. Specifically, about non-megapass skiing. It wasn't working, he insisted. It couldn't work without sweeping and fundamental changes. And he knew how to make those changes. He was already making them, via Entabeni, by delivering jetpack technology to caveman ski areas. They'd been fighting with sticks and rocks but now they had machine guns. But they needed more weapons, and faster.I still didn't get it. Not when Mogensen purchased Indy Pass in March 2023, and not when he joined the board at teetering-on-the-edge-of-existence Antelope Butte, Wyoming the following month. I may not have gotten it until Mogensen assembled, that October, a transcontinental coalition to reverse a New Hampshire mountain's decision to drop dead or contributed, several weeks later, vital funds to help re-open quirky and long-shuttered Hickory, New York.But in May of that year I had a late-night conversation with Doug Fish in a Savannah bar. He'd had no shortage of Indy Pass suitors, he told me. Fish had chosen Erik, he said, not because his longtime tech partner would respect Indy's brand integrity or would refuse to sell to Megaski Inc – though certainly both were true – but because in Mogensen, Fish saw a figure messianic in his conviction that family-owned, crockpots-on-tabletops, two-for-Tuesday skiing must not be in the midst of an extinction event.Mogensen, Fish said, had transformed his world into a laboratory for preventing such a catastrophe, rising before dawn and working all day without pause, focused always and only on skiing. More specifically, on positioning lunch-bucket skiing for a fair fight in the world of Octopus Lifts and $329 lift tickets and suspender-wearing Finance Bros who would swallow the mountains whole if they could poop gold coins out afterward. In service of this vision, Mogensen had created Entabeni from nothing. Indy Pass never would have worked without it, Fish said. “Elon Musk on skis,” Fish called* him. A visionary who would change this thing forever.Fish was, in a way, mediating. I'd written something - who knows what at this point – that Mogensen hadn't been thrilled with. Fish counseled us both against dismissiveness. I needed time to appreciate the full epic; Erik to understand the function of media. We still disagree often, but we understand and appreciate one another's roles. Mogensen is, increasingly, a main character in the story of modern skiing, and I – as a chronicler of such – owe my audience an explanation for why I think so.*This quote hit different two years ago, when Musk was still primarily known as the tireless disruptor who had mainstreamed electric cars. What we talked aboutWhy Indy Pass stepped up to save Black Mountain, New Hampshire; tripling Black's best revenue year ever in one season; how letting skiers brown bag helped increase revenue; how a beaten-up, dated ski area can compete directly with corporate-owned mountains dripping with high-speed lifts and riding cheap mass-market passes; “I firmly believe that skiing is in a bit of an identity crisis”; free cookies as emotional currency; Black's co-op quest; Black's essential elements; skiing's multi-tiered cost crisis; why the fanciest option is often the only option for lifts, snowcats, and snowguns; what ski areas are really competing against (it isn't other ski areas); bringing big tech to small skiing with Entabeni; what happened when teenage Mogensen's favorite ski area closed; “we need to spend 90 percent of our time understanding the problem we're trying to solve, and 10 percent of our time solving it”; why data matters; where small skiing is in the technology curve; “I think it's become very, very obvious that where you can level the playing field very quickly is with technology”; why Entabeni purchased Indy Pass; the percent of day-ticket sales that Indy accounts for at partner ski areas; limiting Indy Pass sales and keeping prices low; is Indy Pass a business?; and why Indy will never add a third day.Questions I wish I'd askedMogensen's tenure at Indy Pass has included some aggressive moves to fend off competition and hold market share. I wrote this series of stories on Indy's showdown with Ski Cooper over its cheap reciprocal pass two years ago:These are examples of headlines that Indy Pass HQ were not thrilled with, but I have a job to do. We could have spent an entire podcast re-hashing this, but the story has already been told, and I'd rather move forward than back.Also, I'd have liked to discuss Antelope Butte, Wyoming and Hickory, New York at length. We glancingly discuss Antelope Butte, and don't mention Hickory at all, but these are both important stories that I intend to explore more deeply in the future.Why now was a good time for this interviewHere's an interesting fact: since 2000, the Major League Baseball team with the highest payroll has won the World Series just three times (the 2018 Red Sox, and the 2000 and '09 Yankees), and made the series but lost it three additional times (the 2017 Dodgers and 2001 and '03 Yankees). Sure, the world champ rocks a top-five payroll about half the time, and the vast majority of series winners sit in the top half of the league payroll-wise, but recent MLB history suggests that the dudes with the most resources don't always win.Which isn't to say it's easy to fight against Epic and Ikon and ski areas with a thousand snowguns and chairlifts that cost more than a fighter jet. But a little creativity helps a lot. And Mogensen has assembled a creative toolkit that independent ski area operators can tap to help them spin-kick their way through the maelstrom:* When ski areas join Indy Pass, they join what amounts to a nationally marketed menu for hungry skiers anxious for variety and novelty. “Why yes, I'll have two servings of the Jay Peak and two Cannon Mountains, but I guess I'll try a side of this Black Mountain so long as I'm here.” Each resulting Indy Pass visit also delivers a paycheck, often from first-time visitors who say, “By gum let's do it again.”* Many ski areas, such as Nub's Nob and Jiminy Peak, build their own snowguns. Some, like Holiday Valley, install their own lifts. The manly man manning machines has been a ski industry trope since the days of Model T-powered ropetows and nine-foot-long skis. But ever so rare is the small ski area that can build, from scratch, a back-end technology system that actually works at scale. Entabeni says “yeah actually let me get this part, Bro.” Tech, as Mogensen says in our interview, is the fastest way for the little dude to catch up with the big dude.* Ski areas can be good businesses. But they often aren't. Costs are high, weather is unpredictable, and skiing is hard, cold, and, typically, far away from where the people live. To avoid the inconvenience of having to turn a profit, many ski areas – Bogus Basin, Mad River Glen, Bridger Bowl – have stabilized themselves under alternate business models, in which every dollar the ski area makes funnels directly back into improving the ski area. Black Mountain is attempting to do the same.I'm an optimist. Ask me about skiing's future, and I will not choose “death by climate change.” It is, instead, thriving through adaptation, to the environment, to technological shifts, to societal habits. Just watch if you don't believe me.Why you should ski Black MountainThere's no obvious answer to this question. Black is surrounded by bangers. Twin-peaked Attitash looms across the valley. Towering Wildcat faces Mt. Washington a dozen miles north. Bretton Woods and Sunday River, glimmering and modern, hoteled and mega-lifted and dripping with snowgun bling, rise to the west and to the east, throwing off the gravity and gravitas to haul marching armies of skiers into their kingdoms. Cranmore gives skiers a modern lift and a big new baselodge. Even formerly beat-up Pleasant Mountain now spins a high-speeder up its 1,200 vertical feet. And to even get to Black from points south, skiers have to pass Waterville, Loon, Cannon, Gunstock, and Ragged, all of which offer more terrain, more vert, faster lifts, bigger lodges, and an easier access road.That's a tough draw. And it didn't help that, until recently, Black was, well, a dump. Seasons were short, investment was limited. When things broke, they stayed broken – Mogensen tells me that Black hadn't made snow above the double chair midstation in 20 years before this winter. When I last showed up to ski at Black, two years ago, I found an empty parking lot and stilled lifts, in spite of assurances on social media and the ski area's website that this was a normal operating day.Mogensen fixed all that. The double now spins to the top every day the ski area is open. New snowguns line many trunk trails. A round of explosives tamed Upper Maple Slalom, transforming the run from what was essentially a cliff into an offramp-smooth drag-racer. The J-bar – America's oldest continuously operating overhead cable lift, in service since 1935 – spins regularly. A handle tow replaced the old rope below the triple. Black has transformed the crippled and sad little mid-mountain lodge into a boisterous party deck with music and champagne and firepits roaring right beneath the double chair. Walls and don't-do-this-or-that signs came down all over the lodge, which, while still crowded, is now stuffed with families and live music and beer glasses clinking in the dusk.And this is year one. Mogensen can't cross five feet of Black's campus without someone stopping him to ask if he's “the Indy Pass guy” and hoisting their phone for selfie-time. They all say some version of “thank you for what you're doing.” They all want in on the co-op. They all want to be part of whatever this crazy, quirky little hill is, which is the opposite of all the zinger lifts and Epkon overload that was supposed to kill off creaky little outfits like this one.Before I skied Black for three days over Presidents' weekend, I was skeptical that Mogensen could summon the interest to transform the mountain into a successful co-op. Did New England really have the appetite for another large throwback ski outfit on top of MRG and Smuggs and Magic? All my doubt evaporated as I watched Mogensen hand out free hot cookies like some orange-clad Santa Claus, as I tailed my 8-year-old son into the low-angle labyrinths of Sugar Glades and Rabbit Run, as I watched the busiest day in the mountain's recorded history fail to produce lift lines longer than three minutes, as Mt. Washington greeted me each time I slid off the Summit double.Black Mountain is a special place, and this is a singular time to go and be a part of it. So do that.Podcast NotesOn Black Mountain's comebackIn October 2023, Black Mountain's longtime owner, John Fichera, abruptly announced that the ski area would close, probably forever. An alarmed Mogensen rolled in with an offer to help: keep the ski area open, and Indy and Entabeni will help you find a buyer. Fichera agreed. I detailed the whole rapid-fire saga here:A year and dozens of perspective buyers later, Black remained future-less heading into the 2024-25 winter. So Mogensen shifted tactics, buying the mountain via Indy Pass and promising to transform the ski area into a co-op:On the Mad River Glen co-opAs of this writing, Mad River Glen, the feisty, single-chair-accessed 2,000-footer that abuts Alterra's Sugarbush, is America's only successful ski co-op. Here's how it started and how it works, per MRG's website:Mad River Glen began a new era in 1995 when its skiers came together to form the Mad River Glen Cooperative. The Cooperative works to fulfill a simple mission;“… to forever protect the classic Mad River Glen skiing experience by preserving low skier density, natural terrain and forests, varied trail character, and friendly community atmosphere for the benefit of shareholders, area personnel and patrons.” …A share in the Mad River Cooperative costs $2,000. Shares may be purchased through a single payment or in 40 monthly installments of $50 with a $150 down payment. The total cost for an installment plan is $2,150 (8.0% Annual Percentage Rate). The installment option enables anyone who loves and appreciates Mad River Glen to become an owner for as little as $50 per month. Either way, you start enjoying the benefits immediately! The only other cost is the annual Advance Purchase Requirement (APR) of $200. Since advance purchases can be applied to nearly every product and service on the mountain, including season passes, tickets, ski school and food, the advance purchase requirement does not represent an additional expense for most shareholders. In order to remain in good standing as a shareholder and receive benefits, your full APR payment must be met each year by September 30th.Black is still working out the details of its co-op. I can't share what I already know, other than to say that Black's organizational structure will be significantly different from MRG's.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Elias Makos kicks off the week with Trudie Mason, veteran Newscaster here at CJAD 800, and Jimmy Zoubris, special advisor to the Mayor. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau strongly defended Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the Securing Our Future Summit in London Trudeau also met with King Charles in the saloon at Sandringham House today, getting an audience as Donald Trump attacks Canada’s sovereignty The Globe and Mail sent a reporter to Jay Peak in Vermont to report on the decline in Canadian visitors since the Trump tariff threats began and found that wasn’t the case at all Soraya Martinez Ferrada is stepping into the spotlight as the new leader of Ensemble Montréal and the party’s candidate for mayor Quebec Premier François Legault has called for an independent public inquiry into the SAAQclic debacle

Journalism genius and podcast favorite Sam Sanders (Vibe Check, The Sam Sanders Show on KCRW) joins Laci to take down the latest scam hitting the ski slopes. While they may not agree on taking a spin on the ski lift, they're both all in for cozying up with drinks by the fire and rocking those snow bunny fits. Today's scheme has it all—Jay Peak, a snowy retreat just 20 minutes from Vermont; Green Cards; mountain makeovers; a man with chilling, soul-piercing eyes; Resorts World; and a sprawling biotech facility set to produce advanced medical devices from dialysis machines to artificial organs. How's that? Stay schemin'!Check out The Sam Sanders Show on KCRW. Listen to Sam Sings! In honor of Grammy weekend with Billie Eilish's vocal coach Doug Peck.Sam Sings! with Celebrity Vocal Coach Doug PeckCON-gregation, catch Laci's new TV Show Scam Goddess, now on Freeform and Hulu!Follow on Instagram:Scam Goddess Pod: @scamgoddesspod  Laci Mosley: @divalaciSam Sanders: @samsandersResearch by Kathryn Doyle SOURCEShttps://web.archive.org/web/20241204104720/https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/02/05/the-rural-ski-slope-caught-up-in-an-international-scamhttps://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/east-coast/how-jay-peak-owners-defrauded-investors/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/28/travel/jay-peak-vermont.htmlhttps://www.wcax.com/2022/04/13/kingdom-con-history-vermonts-biggest-fraud-case/https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/jaypeak.phphttps://www.floridabulldog.org/2018/11/key-biscayne-businessman-orchestrated-200-million-rip-off-against-foreign-investors-seeking-green-cards/https://pnxborderlaw.com/2018/09/09/sec-files-complaint-against-joel-burstein-for-conduct-related-to-the-jay-peak-eb-5-fraud/ Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/scam.

Vermont Edition hits the slopes at Jay Peak Resort for a look at the current ski season.

To kick off ski season, Vermont Edition broadcast live from Jay Peak Ski Resort in Orleans County, a ten minute drive from the Canadian border.Steve Wright, president and general manager of Jay Peak, and Martin Clements, Jay Peak's assistant ski patrol director, share updates on snow conditions and how the resort has been preparing for this season. Former World Cup alpine ski racer and Olympic gold medalist Barbara Ann Cochran talks about her family's skiing legacy and the ways she supports athletes' mental preparedness. Jordan and Momo Antonucci, who run the Miso Hungry food cart at Jay, give an inside scoop on their signature ramen and other après-ski favorites.

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Nov. 25. It dropped for free subscribers on Dec. 2. To receive future episodes as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:What Indy Pass is a newcomer to the NYC media circuit, hosting their inaugural gathering at an airy venue hard by the Hudson River. Part of the agenda was this short panel that I moderated, featuring the leaders of four Indy Pass partner mountains.Who* Erik Mogensen, Director, Indy Pass* Steve Wright, President & General Manager, Jay Peak, Vermont* Rob Goodell, Senior Vice President & Chief Operating Officer, Loveland, Colorado* David Severn, Owner, White Pass, Washington* Geoff Hatheway, Owner & President, Magic Mountain, VermontRecorded onOctober 23, 2024About Indy PassIndy Pass has collected 230 partners. The pass gets you two days each at 222 of them and discounts at the other eight. The pass is no longer on sale for the 2024-25 ski season, but there are baseball-game hotdogs that cost more than this thing.About the ski areasJAY PEAK, VERMONTStats: 2,153 vertical feet | 385 skiable acres | 347 inches average annual snowfallLOVELAND, COLORADOStats: 2,210 vertical feet | 1,800 skiable acres | 422 inches average annual snowfallWHITE PASS, WASHINGTONStats: 2,050 vertical feet | 1,402 skiable acres | 400 inches average annual snowfallMAGIC MOUNTAIN, VERMONTStats: 1,500 vertical feet | 205 skiable acres | 130 inches average annual snowfallWhat we talked aboutJay isn't remote for everyone; Magic's black quad odyssey; PNW snow quality; why you've probably seen Loveland even if you've never skied it; Loveland Valley's origin story; why Jay joined Indy Pass when it could have joined any pass; why White Pass' new owners stayed on Indy Pass after purchasing it; and what finally convinced Loveland to join Indy. Podcast NotesOn the original Indy Pass announcementIndy Pass' website popped live sometime in March 2019, with a list of under-appreciated mid-sized ski areas concentrated around the Pacific Northwest. The roster grew rapidly prior to the start of the season, but even this would have been a hell of an offering for $199:On Loveland ValleyLoveland is home to a little-noticed terrain pod known as Loveland Valley. With a quad, a double, and a set of carpets, this segmented zone essentially serves as a separate, beginners-oriented ski area.On The Storm's Indy Pass/Jay Peak exclusiveSomehow, I scored an exclusive on the news that Jay Peak would join Indy Pass in 2020. I was also able to record a podcast with Wright in advance of the announcement. This was a huge moment for The Storm, turning hundreds of new subscribers onto the newsletter and forging a relationship with one of the most important mountains in New England.On Hatheway being one of my first interviewsHatheway was one of the first guests on The Storm Skiing Podcast, and one of the first to agree to join me on the show. That was an incredible gesture, as I had published zero episodes when I made the request. Here's the conversation:What I got wrong* I said that Magic “failed a couple of times” before current ownership acquired it. The ski area only completely closed once, from 1991 to 1997. The ski area then fumbled through two decades of near-failures, including a derailed attempt to form a co-op, until Ski Magic LLC took the keys in 2016. Read the full saga at New England Ski History.* I said that it took Magic “four or five” years to install the Black Quad. The full timeline is closer to six years. Stratton removed their Snow Bowl fixed-grip quad following the 2017-18 ski season (replacing it with a high-speed quad). I'm not sure when exactly Magic, just 13.6 road miles from Stratton, took delivery of the lift, but the goal was to get it spinning as the new Black lift by the 2019-20 ski season. After a series of construction delays, engineering problems, and global emergencies, the quad finally started spinning in February of this year.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 80/100 in 2024, and number 580 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and to support independent ski journalism, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.WhoChauncy and Kelli Johnson, Founders of the Snow Angel FoundationRecorded onJune 17, 2024About the Snow Angel FoundationFrom their website:Our mission is to prevent ski and snowboard collisions so that everyone can Ride Another Day! We accomplish our mission through education and awareness to promote safe skiing and snowboarding behaviors. The Foundation was started as a result of a life changing collision and a desire to ensure that these types of collisions never happen again. Since 2016, we have been creating a social movement among skiers and snowboarders with the “Ride Another Day” campaign. Snow Angel Foundation, founded in 2023, is the vehicle that will expand this campaign and transform the culture of skiing and snowboarding into a safety-oriented community. Partner with us so we can all Ride Another Day!The “life changing collision” referred to above resulted in the death of this little girl, Elise Johnson, in 2010:Why I interviewed themThe first time I saw this, I felt like I got punched:I was skiing Snowbird, ground zero for aggressive, full-throttle skiing. The things you see there. The terrain invites it. The bottomless snow enables it. The cultish battle cries of packed-full tram cars demand it. Snowbird is a circus, an amphitheater, a place that scares the s**t out of anyone with a pulse. There aren't many beginners there. Or even intermediates. You're far more likely to smash your face into a rock than clip some meandering 8-year-old's tails when you drop into Silver Fox.But the contrast between that mountain and that message was powerful. For a subset of skiers, every ski day must be this sort of ski day, every run a showcase of their buckle-bending, torque-busting snow arcs. “Out of My Path, Mortals. You are all just traffic cones around which I dance. Admire me!” And it's like damn bro how are you single?That ski behaviors aren't transferable from High Baldy to Baby Thunder is a memo that too many skiers have yet to receive. Is anyone else tired of this? Of World Cup trials on blue groomers? Of the social media braggadocio and bravado about skiing six times the speed of light? Of knuckleheads conflating speed with skill? When I talk about The Brobots, this is a big part of what I mean: the sense of entitlement to do as they please with shared space, without regard for the impact their actions could have on others.I hope one or two of these people will listen to this podcast. And I hope they will stop threading the Buttercup Runout back to the Carebear Quad as though they were navigating an X-Wing through an asteroid belt. Speed is a big part of skiing's appeal. The power and adrenaline of it, the thrill. But there are places on the bump where it's appropriate to tuck and fly, and places where it just isn't. And I wish more of us knew the difference.What we talked aboutElise just “had a lot of light”; being a ski family; an awful Christmas Eve at Hogadon Basin; waking up six weeks later; recovering from grief; why the family kept skiing; transforming pain into activism; slow the F down Brah; who's doing a good job on safety; ski industry opposition to injury- and death-reporting regulations; and what we learned from the mass adoption of helmets.Podcast NotesOn couples on the podcastI mentioned I've hosted several husband-wife combinations on the podcast, mostly the owners of ski areas:* Plattekill, New York owners Laszlo and Danielle Vajtay* Paul Bunyan, Wisconsin owners TJ and Wendy Kerscher* West Mountain, New York owners Sara and Spencer MontgomeryOn Antelope ButteThe Johnsons' local is Antelope Butte, a little double-chair bump in northern Wyoming:On Snowy RangeThe Johnsons also spent time skiing Snowy Range, also in Wyoming:On Hogadon BasinThe incident in question went down on the Dreadnaught run at Hogadon Basin, a 600-vertical-foot bump 20 minutes south of Casper, Wyoming:On 50 First DatesBy her own account, Kelli's life for six weeks went about like this:On the Colorado Sun's research on industry opposition to safety-reporting requirementsFrom April 8, 2024:[13-year-old] Silas [Luckett] is one of thousands of people injured on Colorado ski slopes every winter. With the state's ski hills posting record visitation in the past two seasons — reaching 14.8 million in 2022-23 — it would appear that the increasing frequency of injuries coincides with the rising number of visits. We say “appear” because, unlike just about every other industry in the country, the resort industry does not disclose injury data. …Ski resorts do not release injury reports. The ski resort industry keeps a tight grasp on even national injury data. Since 1980, the National Ski Areas Association provides select researchers with injury data for peer-reviewed reports issued every 10 years by the National Ski Areas Association. The most recent 10-year review of ski injuries was published in 2014, looking at 13,145 injury reports from the 2010-11 ski season at resorts that reported 4.6 million visits.The four 10-year reports showed a decline in skier injuries from 3.1 per 1,000 visitors in 1980-81 to 2.7 in 1990-91 to 2.6 in 2000-01 to 2.5 in 2010-11. Snowboarder injuries were 3.3 in 1990, 7.0 in 2000 and 6.1 in 2010.For 1990-91, the nation's ski areas reported 46.7 million skier visits, 2000-01 was 57.3 million and 2010-11 saw a then all–time high of 60.5 million visits. …The NSAA's once-a-decade review of injuries from 2020-21 was delayed during the pandemic and is expected to land later this year. But the association's reports are not available to the public [the NSAA disputes this, and provided a copy of the report to The Storm; I'll address this in more detail in an upcoming, already-recorded podcast with NSAA president Kelly Pawlak].When Colorado state Sen. Jessie Danielson crafted a bill in 2021 that would have required ski areas to publish annual injury statistics, the industry blasted the plan, arguing it would be an administrative burden and confuse the skiing public. It died in committee.“When we approached the ski areas to work on any of the details in the bill, they refused,” Danielson, a Wheat Ridge Democrat, told The Sun in 2021. “It makes me wonder what it is that they are hiding. It seems to me that an industry that claims to have safety as a top priority would be interested in sharing the information about injuries on their mountains.”The resort industry vehemently rebuffs the notion that ski areas do not take safety seriously.Patricia Campbell, the then-president of Vail Resorts' 37-resort mountain division and a 35-year veteran of the resort industry, told Colorado lawmakers considering the 2021 legislation that requiring ski resorts to publish safety reports was “not workable” and would create an “unnecessary burden, confusion and distraction.”Requiring resorts to publish public safety plans, she said, would “trigger a massive administrative effort” that could redirect resort work from other safety measures.“Publishing safety plans will not inform skiers about our work or create a safer ski area,” Campbell told the Colorado Senate's Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee in April 2021.The Sun also compiles an annual report of deaths at Colorado ski areas.On helmet cultureProblems often seem intractable, the world fossilized. But sometimes simple things change so completely, and in such a short period of time, that it's almost impossible to imagine the world before. I was 19, for example, the first time I used the internet, and 23 when I acquired its evil cousin, the cellphone (which would not be usefully linked to the web for about another decade).In our little ski world, the thing-that-is-now-ubiquitous-that-once-barely-existed is helmets. As recently as the 1990s, you likely weren't dropping a bucket on your skull unless you were running gates on a World Cup circuit. It's not that we didn't know about them – helmets have been around since, like, the Bronze Age. But nobody wore them. Nobody. Then, suddenly, everyone did. Or, well, it seemed sudden, though it's surprising to see that, as recently as the 2002-03 ski season, only around 25 percent of skiers bothered to strap on a helmet:I was a late adopter when I first wore a helmet in 2016. And when I finally got there, I realized, hey, this thing is warm. It also came in handy when I slammed the back of my head into a downed tree at Jay Peak last March.I don't have hard stats on helmet usage going back to the 1990s, but check out this circa 1990s casual ski day vid at an unidentified U.S. mountain:I counted one helmet. On a kid. To underscore the point, here's a circa 1990s promo for Steamboat Ski Patrol, which captures the big-mountain crew rocking knit caps and goggles:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 54/100 in 2024, and number 554 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Mona and Mark sit down with Doug Anderson to discuss Jay Peak, the Morning After… In this episode, you will be able to:•    Navigate the J Peak EB-5 project controversy to make informed investment decisions. •    Understand the implications of the Reform and Integrity Act of 2022 EB-5 for ski resort investors. •    Unlock the potential of investing in ski resorts with EB-5 for long-term returns. •    Adapt to the impact of COVID on ski resort visitation and investment opportunities. •    Implement successful year-round ski resort strategies for sustainable growth.Have a topic or question you would like covered on a future episode of Global Investment Voice?Let us know over at https://globalinvestmentvoice.com/contact/ or using the contact details below.Phone: 212-233-7473Email: info@mshahlaw.comTo discover the show notes on this episode as well as other topics, information, and resources; please head over to https://globalinvestmentvoice.com/podcast/

Today we celebrate the decade anniversary of one of the most storied and epic bike races in the east, the Rasputitsa, with race co-founder and co-director Heidi Myers.So what exactly is Rasputitsa, you might be asking? Short answer is, it depends. This year it was a whole weekend of events built around a 50-ish mile gravel bike ride/race that based itself at Jay Peak in Vermont, and included 4,500 feet of climbing.For the long answer, PLEASE go back and listen to my earlier episode with Heidi, and follow @rasputitsadirt on Instagram to let the energy and ethos of this amazing person (and the event she helped to create) wash over you.Content warning - audio is admittedly not great. Heidi lives in a rural spot in northern Vermont, and her service left a lot to be desired... so I ask you to bring the same level of intentionality to listening to this podcast that Heidi and the Rasputitsa team bring to every little, tiny detail of their race planning. Find a quiet place where you can focus on her words, you won't regret it.And one final note - spoiler for those who haven't yet listened to Heidi's first appearance on this podcast - she's been battling early onset Parkinson's for years. She is the last person to expect (or desire) any kind of sympathy or extra attention for what she's going through, but I do think it's important to consider when you look at how intentional she is, particularly regarding this race and community. She really does blow me away.Prepare to be inspired.And some links before we go:Rasputitsa - https://rasputitsadirt.com/@rasputitsadirt - https://www.instagram.com/rasputitsadirtHeidi Myers on Guides Gone Wild (debut!)Trish & Jen talk about VerticalSpecializedWHOOPBourne's EnergyZero GravityJay PeakMidSouth Gravel - @midsouthgravelGroundedNE - @groundedneBig Red Gravel Run - @bigredgravelrunFor the Love of Food CateringBivoTrash Gear Co (bike fenders and mud guards made in VT from recycled plastic!)Julbo EyewearCastelliPlink!Columbia Forest Products

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on April 5. It dropped for free subscribers on April 12. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoBruce Schmidt, Vice President and General Manager at Okemo Mountain Resort, VermontRecorded onFeb. 27, 2024 (apologies for the delay)About OkemoClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Vail ResortsLocated in: Ludlow, VermontYear founded: 1956Pass affiliations:* Epic Pass: unlimited access* Epic Local Pass: unlimited access* Epic Northeast Value Pass: unlimited access with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Midweek Pass: unlimited weekday access with holiday blackouts* Epic Day Pass: access on “all resorts” and “32 resorts” tiersClosest neighboring ski areas: Killington (:22), Magic (:26), Bromley (:31), Pico (:32), Ascutney (:33), Bellows Falls (:37), Stratton (:41), Saskadena Six (:44), Ski Quechee (:48), Storrs Hill (:52), Whaleback (:56), Mount Snow (1:04), Hermitage Club (1:10)Base elevation: 1,144 feetSummit elevation: 3,344 feetVertical drop: 2,200 feetSkiable Acres: 632Average annual snowfall: 120 inches per On The Snow; Vail claims 200.Trail count: 121 (30% advanced, 37% intermediate, 33% beginner) + 6 terrain parksLift count: 20 (2 six-packs, 4 high-speed quads, 5 fixed-grip quads, 2 triples, 1 platter, 6 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Okemo's lift fleet)View historic Okemo trailmaps on skimap.org.Why I interviewed himWhether by plan or by happenstance, Vail ended up with a nearly perfect mix of Vermont ski areas. Stowe is the beater, with the big snows and the nasty trails and the amazing skiers and the Uphill Bros and the glades and the Front Four. Mount Snow is the sixth borough of New York City (but so is Florida and so is Stratton), big and loud and busy and bursting and messy, with a whole mountain carved out for a terrain park and big-drinking, good-timing crowds, as many skiers at the après, it can seem, as on the mountain. And Okemo is something that's kind of in-between and kind of totally different, at once tame and lively, a placid family redoubt that still bursts with that frantic Northeast energy.It's a hard place to define, and statistics won't do it. Line up Vermont's ski areas on a table, and Okemo looks bigger and better than Sugarbush or Stowe or Jay Peak. It isn't, of course, as anyone in the region will tell you. The place doesn't require the guts that its northern neighbors demand. It's big but not bossy. More of a stroll than a run, a good-timer cruising the Friday night streets in a drop-top low-rider, in no hurry at all to do anything other than this. It's like skiing Vermont without having to tangle with Vermont, like boating on a lake with no waves.Because of this unusual profile, New England skiers either adore Okemo or won't go anywhere near it. It is a singular place in a dense ski state that is the heart of a dense ski region. Okemo isn't particularly convenient to get to, isn't particularly snowy by Vermont standards, and isn't particularly interesting from a terrain point of view. And yet, it is, historically, the second-busiest ski area in the Northeast (after Killington). There is something there that works. Or at least, that has worked historically, as the place budded and flourished in the Mueller family's 36-year reign.But it's Vail's mountain now, an Epic Pass anchor that's shuffling and adding lifts for the crowds that that membership brings. While the season pass price has dropped, skier expectations have ramped up at Okemo, as they have everywhere in the social-media epoch. The grace that passholders granted the growing family-owned mountain has evaporated. Everyone's pulling the pins on their hand grenades and flinging them toward Broomfield every time a Saturday liftline materializes. It's not really fair, but it's how the world is right now. The least I can do is get their side of it.What we talked aboutSummer storm damage to Ludlow and Okemo; the resort helping the town; Vermont's select boards; New England resilience; Vail's My Epic Promise fund and how it helped employees post-storm; reminiscing on old-school Okemo and its Poma forest; the Muellers arrive; the impact of Jackson-Gore; how and why Okemo grew from inconsequential local bump to major New England ski hill; how Okemo expanded within the confines of Vermont's Act 250; Vail buys the mountain, along with Sunapee and Crested Butte; the Muellers' legacy; a Sunapee interlude; Vail adjusting to New England operations; mythbusters: snowmaking edition; the Great Chairlift Switcheroo of 2021; why Okemo didn't place bubbles on the Quantum 6; why Okemo's lift fleet is entirely made up of Poma machines; where Okemo could add a lift to the existing trail network; expansion potential; does Okemo groom too much?; glade expansion?; that baller snowmaking system; what happened when Okemo's season pass price dropped by more than $1,000; is Epic Pass access too loose at Okemo?; how to crowd-dodge; the Epic Northeast Midweek Pass; limiting lift ticket sales; and skyrocketing lift ticket prices.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewBruce Schmidt first collected a paycheck from Okemo in the late 1970s. That was a different mountain, a different ski industry, a different world. Pomas and double chairs and primitive snowmaking and mountain-man gear and no internet. It was grittier and colder, in the sense that snowpants and ski coats and heated gloves and socks were not so ubiquitous and affordable and high-quality as they are today. Skiing, particularly in New England, required a hardiness, a tolerance for cold and subtle pain that modernity has slowly shuffled out of the skier profile.Different as it was, that age of 210s and rear-wheel drive rigs was not that long ago, and Schmidt has experienced it as one continuous story. That sort of institutional and epochal tenure is rare, especially at one ski area, especially at one that has evolved as much as Okemo. Imagine if you showed up at surface-lift Hickory and watched it transform, over four decades, into sprawling Gore. That's essentially what Schmidt lived – and helped drive – at Okemo.That hardly ever happens. Small ski areas tend to stay small. Expansion is hard and expensive and, in Vermont especially, bureaucratically challenging. And yet little Okemo, wriggling in Killington's shadow, lodged between the state's southern and northern snow pockets, up past Mount Snow and Stratton but not so far from might-as-well-keep-driving Sugarbush and Mad River Glen, became, somehow, the fourth-largest ski area in America's fourth-largest ski state by skier visits (after Colorado, California, and Utah, typically).The Mueller family, which owned the ski area from 1982 until they sold it to Vail Resorts in 2018, were, of course, the visionaries and financiers behind that growth, the likes of which we will probably never witness in New England again. But as Vail's roots grow deeper and they make these mountains their own, that legacy will fade, if not necessarily dim. It was important, then, to download that part of Schmidt's brain to the internet, to make sure that story survived the big groom of time.What I got wrongI said in the intro that Bruce started at Okemo in 1987. He actually started in the late ‘70s and worked there on and off for several years, as he explains in the conversation.I said that Okemo's lift fleet was “100 percent Poma.” This is not exactly right, as some of the lifts are officially branded Leitner-Poma. I'm also not certain of the make of Okemo's carpets.I noted in the intro that Okemo was Vail's second-largest eastern mountain. It is actually their largest by skiable acreage (though Stowe feels larger to me, given the expansive unmarked but very skiable glades stuffed between nearly every trail). Here's a snapshot of Vail's entire portfolio for reference:Why you should ski OkemoThe first time I skied Okemo was 2007. I rode a 3:45 a.m. ski bus north from Manhattan. I remember thinking three things: 1) wow, this place is big; 2) wow, there are a lot of kids here; and 3) do they seriously groom every goddamn trail every single night?This was at the height of my off-piste mania. I'm not a great carver, especially after the cord gets chopped up and scratchy sublayers emerge. I prefer to maneuver, at a moderate pace, over terrain, meaning bumps or glades (which are basically bumps in the trees, at least on a typical Vermont day). It's more fun and interesting than blasting down wide-open, beaten-up groomers filled with New Yorkers.But wide-open, beaten-up groomers filled with New Yorkers is what Okemo is. At the time, I had no understanding of freeze-thaw cycles, of subtle snowfall differentials between nearby ski areas, of the demographic profile that drove such tight slope management (read: mediocre big-city skiers with no interest in anything other than getting to the bottom still breathing). All I knew was that for me, at the time, this wasn't what I was looking for.But what you want as a skier evolves over time. I still like terrain, and Okemo still doesn't have as much as I'd like. If that's what you need, take your Epic Pass to Stowe – they have plenty. But what I also like is skiing with my kids, skiing with my wife, morning cord laps off fast lifts, long meandering scenic routes to rest up between bumpers, exploring mountains border to border, getting a little lost among multiple base areas, big views, moderate pitches, and less-aggressive skiers (ride the K1 gondy or Superstar chair at Killington and then take the Sunburst Six at Okemo; the toning down of energy and attitude is palpable).Okemo not only has all that – it is all that. If that makes sense. This is one of the best family ski areas in the country. It feels like – it is – a supersized version of the busy ski areas in Massachusetts or Connecticut, a giant Wachusett or Catamount or Mohawk Mountain: unintimidating, wide-open, freewheeling, and quirky in its own overgroomed, overbusy way.If you hit it right, Okemo will give you bumps and glades and even, on a weekday, wide-open trails all to yourself. But that's not the typical Okemo experience, and it's not the point of the place. This is New England's friendly giant, a meandering mass of humanity, grinning and gripping and slightly frazzled, a disjointed but united-by-snow collective that, together, define Okemo as much as the mountain itself.Okemo on a stormy day in November 2021. Video by Stuart Winchester.Podcast NotesOn last summer's flooding in Okemo and LudlowI mean yowza:I hate to keep harping on New Englander's work ethic, but…I reset the same “dang New England you're badass” narrative that I brought up with Sunday River GM Brian Heon on the podcast a few weeks ago. I'm not from New England and I've never even lived there, and I'm from a region with the same sort of get-after-it problem-solver mentality and work ethic. But I'm still amazed at how every time New England gets smashed over the head with a frying pan, they just look annoyed for five minutes, put on a Band-Aid, and keep moving.On the fate of Plymouth, Bromley, Ascutney, and Plymouth/RoundtopSchmidt and I discuss several Vermont ski areas whose circa-1980s size rivaled that of Okemo's at the time. Here, for context, was Okemo before the Muellers arrived in 1982:It's hard to tell from the trailmap, but only four of the 10 or so lifts shown above were chairlifts. Today, Okemo has grown into Vermont's fourth-largest ski area by skiable acres (though I have reason to doubt the accuracy of the ski resort's self-reported tallies; Stowe, Sugarbush, and Jay all ski at least as big as Okemo, but officially report fewer skiable acres).Anyway, in the early ‘80s, Magic, Bromley, Ascutney, and Plymouth/Roundtop were approximate peers to Okemo. Bromley ran mostly chairlifts, and has evolved the most of this group, but it is far smaller than Okemo today. The mountain has always been well-managed, so it wasn't entirely fair to stick it in with this group, but the context is important here: Bromley today is roughly the same size that it was 40 years ago:Ascutney sold a 1,400-plus-foot vertical drop and a thick trail network in this 1982 trailmap. But the place went bust and sold its high-speed quad in 2012 (it's now the main lift at Vail-owned Crotched). Today, Ascutney consists of a lower-mountain ropetow and T-bar that rises just 450 vertical feet (you can still skin or hike the upper mountain trails).Magic, in the early ‘80s, was basically the same size it is today:A merger with now-private and liftless (but still skiable from Magic), Timber Ridge briefly supersized the place before it went out of business for a large part of the ‘90s:When Magic recovered from its long shutdown, it reverted to its historic footprint (with extensive glade skiing that either didn't exist or went unmarked in the ‘80s):And then there was Round Top, a 1,300-foot sometime private ski area also known as Bear Creek and Plymouth Notch. The area has sat idle since 2018, though the chairlifts are, last I checked, intact, and it can be yours for $6.5 million.Seriously you can buy it:On Okemo's expansion progressionThe Muellers' improbable transformation of Okemo into a New England Major happened in big chunks. First, they opened the Solitude area for the 1987-88 ski season:In 1994, South Face, far looker's left, opened a new pod of steeper runs toward the summit:The small Morningstar pod, located in the lower-right-hand corner of the trailmap, opened in 1995, mostly to serve a real estate development:The most dramatic change came in 2003, when Okemo opened the sprawling Jackson Gore complex:On Vermont Act 250It's nearly impossible to discuss Vermont skiing without referencing the infamous Act 250, which is, according to the official state website:…Vermont's land use and development law, enacted in 1970 at a time when Vermont was undergoing significant development pressure. The law provides a public, quasi-judicial process for reviewing and managing the environmental, social and fiscal consequences of major subdivisions and developments in Vermont. It assures that larger developments complement Vermont's unique landscape, economy and community needs. One of the strengths of Act 250 is the access it provides to neighbors and other interested parties to participate in the development review process. Applicants often work with neighbors, municipalities, state agencies and other interested groups to address concerns raised by a proposed development, resolving issues and mitigating impacts before a permit application is filed.As onerous as navigating Act 250 can seem, there is significantly more slopeside development in Vermont than in any other Northeastern state, and its large resorts are certainly more developed than anything in build-nothing New York.On the CNL lease structureSchmidt refers to “the CNL lease structure.” Here's what he was talking about: a company called CNL Lifestyle Properties once had a slick sideline in purchasing ski areas and leasing them back to the former owners. New England Ski History explains the historical context:As the banking crisis unfolded, many ski areas across the country transferred their debt into Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs). On December 5, 2008, Triple Peaks transferred its privately held Mt. Sunapee assets to CNL Lifestyle Properties, Inc.. Triple Peaks then entered into a long agreement with CNL to maintain operational control.The site put together a timeline of the various resorts CNL once owned, including, from 2008 to '17, Okemo:On the proximity of Okemo to Mount Sunapee Though Okemo and Sunapee sit in different states, they're only an hour apart:I snapped this pic of Okemo from the Sunapee summit a couple years ago (super zoomed in):On Mount Sunapee's ownershipThe State of New Hampshire owns two ski areas: Cannon Mountain and Mount Sunapee. In 1998, after decades of debate on the subject, the state leased the latter to the Muellers. When Vail acquired Triple Peaks (Okemo, Sunapee, and Crested Butte), in 2019, they either inherited or renegotiated the lease. For whatever reason, the state continues to manage Cannon as part of Franconia Notch State Park. A portion of the lease revenue that Vail pays the state each year is earmarked for capital improvements at Cannon.On glades at Stratton and KillingtonOkemo's trail footprint is light on glades compared to many of the large Vermont ski areas. I point to Killington and Stratton, in particular, in the podcast, mostly due to their proximity to Okemo (every Vermont ski area from Sugarbush on north has a vast glade network). Though it's just 20 minutes away, Killington rakes in around double Okemo's snowfall in an average winter, and the ski area maintains glades all over the mountain:Stratton, 40 minutes south, also averages more snow than Okemo and is a sneaky good glade mountain. It's easy to spend all day in the trees there when the snow's deep (and it's deep more often than you might think):On Okemo's historic pass pricesWe can have mountain-to-mountain debates over the impact Vail Resorts has on the resorts it purchases, but one thing that's inarguable: season pass prices typically plummet when the company acquires ski areas. Check out New England Ski History's itemization of Okemo pass prices over the years – that huge drop in 2018-19 represents the ownership shift and that year's cost of an Epic Local Pass (lift ticket and pass prices listed below are the maximum for that season):But, yeah, those day-ticket prices. Yikes.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing all year long. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 25/100 in 2024, and number 525 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

“Everybody in Tahoe is the kid who doesn't want to come in from recess”, said PowBot in Episode 34 with our guest Kacy Roeder. The concept of play is not just for kids, playing is an essential part of being an adult. Nobody knows this better than Kacy, a licensed landscape architect who designs playgrounds and sends it on her mountain bike and her splitboard. We learn about Kacy's unique career, growing up on the East Coast and finding her way to Lake Tahoe, her love of being outside adventuring and why she built her world around playing as much as possible. Kacy also talks about her involvement with the Rocker Memorial Skate Park and the Rally for Rocker fundraiser on April 27, and how splitboarding has rekindled her love of snowboarding. 1:45 – POWBOT is back! Rest and a knee brace are helping.3:20 – Introducing Kacy Roeder and her hens – farm life7:20 – You Are What You Eat Documentary – industrial food complex and diet9:00 – Trail Whisperer scored pow in the Toiyabe Range of Nevada. Tonopah Low and the Inside Slider storm.10:45 – Kacy scored pow on Mount Rose after hitting Frog Lake Huts and West Shore14:00 – Listener shout outs – Sebastian Johnson - Diamond Peak closes uphill ski access due to people breaking rules and coming within striking distance of a loaded winch cable. 19:20 – Ski Magazine announces ski injuries due to GoPros and weed gummies. But what about alcohol consumption while skiing? 21:00 – PowBot shouts out all listeners who helped him with his knee issues.23:00 – April Fools posts, Zak Mills – snowboarding downhill with ski poles in hand.25:49 – Brian Sullivan – funny video about podcasters.28:20 – All about Kacy Roeder – Landscape Architect – Designing Playgrounds34:00 – Growing up on the East Coast and the path to finding “play” as a profession. 36:00 – Moving to Lake Tahoe after graduating from University of Vermont.39:30 – Trail Whisperer's first encounter with Kacy – Riding MTB in Reno. 43:30 – The concept of men teaching women to mountain bike. 50:20 – Parallels between work and play. Play as an essential element of being an adult.55:00 – Building playgrounds for kids and adults alike. 57:00 – Adventure Journal – Steve Casimiro – observing animals playing. The importance of humans playing. 1:02:00 – Rally for Rocker – Saturday April 27. Donner Ski Ranch on Donner Summit. Fundraiser for Rocker Memorial Skate Park in Truckee. 1:14:30 – Kacy's youth and growing up as an active outdoor family, going to school in Vermont, snowboarding at her home mountains, Okemo Mountain, Stowe and Jay Peak.1:17:00 – Spending time in Florida, New York accents, the competitiveness of the East Coast 1:27:30 – Learning to balance play and education in college.1:30:30 – Kacy's transition from snowboarding to splitboarding and backcountry skiing, and the concept of “Nature Bathing”.1:39:40 – What does Mind the Track mean to you? 1:44:30 – Snoop Pow Dogg Snowsizzle My Dizzle Corn Dog and Powderrific Snow Report

April 5, 2024: The State Auditor's office has released its assessment of Vermont's role in the Jay Peak, Burke Mountain, and AnCBio EB-5 fraud. Auditor Doug Hoffer joins the show to share his office's findings. We discuss how to prevent a similar situation as the EB-5 fraud happening again. To read The Auditor's Report: https://auditor.vermont.gov/sites/auditor/files/documents/EB-5%20Final%20Report.pdfTheme music by Red Heart the Ticker: http://rhtt.net

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Dec. 30. It dropped for free subscribers on Jan. 6. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoAaron Kellett, General Manager of Whiteface, New YorkRecorded onDecember 4, 2023About WhitefaceView the mountain stats overviewOwned by: The State of New YorkLocated in: Wilmington, New YorkYear founded: 1958Pass affiliations: NY Ski3 Pass: Unlimited, along with Gore and BelleayreClosest neighboring ski areas: Mt. Pisgah (:34), Beartown (:55), Dynamite Hill (1:05), Rydin-Hy Ranch (1:12), Titus (1:15), Gore (1:21)Base elevation: 1,220 feetSummit elevation:* 4,386 feet (top of Summit Quad)* 4,650 feet (top of The Slides)* 4,867 feet (mountain summit)Vertical drop: 3,166 feet lift-served; 3,430 feet hike-toSkiable Acres: 299 + 35 acres in The SlidesAverage annual snowfall: 183 inchesTrail count: 94 (30% expert, 46% intermediate, 24% beginner)Lift count: 12 (1 eight-passenger gondola, 2 high-speed quads, 3 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 3 doubles, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Whiteface's lift fleet)View historic Whiteface trailmaps on skimap.org.Why I interviewed himWhiteface, colloquially “Iceface,” rises, from base to summit, a greater height than any ski area in the Northeast. That may not impress the Western chauvinists, who refuse to acknowledge any merit to east-of-the-Mississippi skiing, but were we to airlift this monster to the West Coast, it would tower over all but two ski areas in the three-state region:The International Olympic Committee does not select Winter Games host mountains by tossing darts at a world map. Consider the other U.S. ski areas that have played host: Palisades Tahoe, Park City, Snowbasin, Deer Valley. All naturally blessed with more and more consistent snow than this gnarly Adirondacks skyscraper, but Whiteface, from a pure fall-line skiing point of view, is the equal of any mountain in the country.Still not convinced? Fine. Whiteface will do just fine without you. This state-owned, heavily subsidized-by-public-funds monster seated in the heart of the frozen Adirondacks has just about the most assured future of any ski area anywhere. With an ever-improving monster of a snowmaking system and no great imperative to raise the cannons against Epkon invaders, the place is as close to climate-proof and competition-proof as a modern ski area can possibly be.There's nothing else quite like Whiteface. Most publicly owned ski areas are ropetow bumps that sell lift tickets out of a woodshed on the edge of town. They lean on public funds because they couldn't exist without them. The big ski areas can make their own way. But New York State, enamored of its Olympic legacy and eager to keep that flame burning, can't quite let this one go. The result is this glimmering, grinning monster of a mountain, a boon for the skier, bane for the tax-paying family-owned ski areas in its orbit who are left to fight this colossus on their own. It's not exactly fair and it's not exactly right, but it exists, in all its glory and confusion, and it was way past time to highlight Whiteface on this podcast.What we talked aboutWhiteface's strong early December (we recorded this before the washout); recent snowmaking enhancements; why Empire still doesn't have snowmaking; May closings at Whiteface; why Whiteface built The Notch, an all-new high-speed quad, to serve existing terrain; other lines the ski area considered for the lift; Whiteface's extensive transformation of the beginner experience over the past few years; remembering “snowboard parks” and the evolution of Whiteface's terrain parks; Whiteface's immense legacy and importance to Northeast skiing; could New York host another Winter Olympics?; potential upper-mountain lift upgrades; the etymology of recent Whiteface lift installations; Lookout Mountain; potential future trails; how New York State's constitution impacts development at Whiteface; why Whiteface doesn't offer more glades; The Slides; why Whiteface doesn't have ski-in, ski-out lodging; and whether Alterra invited Whiteface and its sister mountains onto the Ikon Pass in 2018, and whether they would join today.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewOver the past three years, Whiteface has quietly remade its beginner experience with a series of lower-mountain lift upgrades: the old triple chair on the Bear Den side (which Kellett notes was Whiteface's original summit chair) made way for a new Skytrac fixed-grip quad in 2020. The next year, the Mixing Bowl and Bear doubles out of the main base came out for another new Skytrac quad. Then, earlier this month, Whiteface opened The Notch, a brand-new, $11.2 million Doppelmayr high-speed quad with an angle station to seamlessly transport skiers from Bear Den up to mid-mountain, from which point they can easily lap the kingdom of interlaced greens tangled below. Check out the before and after:It's a brilliant evolution for a mountain that has long embraced its identity as a proving ground for champions, a steep and icy former Olympic host comfortable scaring the hell out of you. Skiing has a place for radsters and Park Brahs and groomer gods arcing GS turns off the summit. But the core of skiing is families. They spend the most on the bump and off, and they have options. In Whiteface's case, that's Vermont, the epicenter of Northeast skiing and home to no fewer than a dozen fully built-out and buffed-up ski resorts, many of which belong to a national multimountain pass that committed ski families are likely to own. To compete, Whiteface had to ramp up its green-circle appeal.I don't think the world has processed that fact yet, just as I don't think they've quite understood the utter transformations at Whiteface sister resorts Belleayre and Gore. The state has plowed more than half a billion dollars into ORDA's facilities since 2017. While some of that cash went to improve the authority's non-ski facilities in and around Lake Placid (ice rinks and the like), a huge percent went directly into new lifts, snowmaking, lodges, and other infrastructure upgrades at the ski mountains.For context, Alterra, owner of 18 ski areas in the U.S. and Canada, reported in March that they had invested $1 billion into their mountains since the company's formation in 2017. To underscore the magnitude of ORDA's investment: any one of Alterra's flagship western properties – Mammoth (3,500 acres), Palisades Tahoe (6,000), Winter Park (3,081), Steamboat (3,500), Crystal (2,600) – is many times larger than Whiteface (288), Gore (439), and Belleayre (171) combined (898 total acres, or just a bit smaller than Aspen Mountain). No ski areas in America have seen more investment in proportion to their size in recent years than these three state-owned mountains.I also wanted to touch on a topic that gnaws at me: why Alterra, when it cleaned out the M.A.X. Pass, overlooked so many strong regional mountains that could have turbocharged local sales. I got into this with Lutsen Mountains GM Jim Vick in October, and Kellett humors me on this question: would Whiteface have joined the Ikon Pass had it been invited in 2018? And would they join now, given the success and growth of the Ski 3 Pass over the past six years? The answers are not what you might think.Questions I wish I'd askedI probably should have asked about the World University Games, which Whiteface and Lake Placid spent years and millions of dollars to prepare for. I don't cover competition, but I do admire spectacles, and more than an allusion to the event would have been appropriate for the format. We do, however, go deep on the possibility of the Olympics returning to New York.Also, I don't get into the whole ORDA-public-funding-handicapping-New-York's-small-ski-areas thing, even though it is a thing, and one that independent operators rightly see as an existential threat. I do cover this dynamic often in the newsletter, but I don't address it with Kellett. Why? I'll reset here what I said when I hosted Gore GM Bone Bayse on the podcast last year:Many of you may be left wondering why my extensive past complaints about ORDA largess did not penetrate my line of questioning for this interview. Gore is about to spend nearly $9 million to replace a 12-year-old triple chair with a high-speed quad. There is no other ski area on the continent that is able to do anything remotely similar. How could I spend an hour talking to the person directing this whole operation without broaching this very obvious subject?Because this is not really a Gore problem. It's not even an ORDA problem. This is a New York State problem. The state legislature is the one directing hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to three ski areas while the majority of New York's family-owned mountains pray for snow. I am not opposed to government support of winter sports. I am opposed to using tax dollars from independent ski areas that have to operate at a profit in order to subsidize the operations of government-owned ski areas that do not. There are ways to distribute the wealth more evenly, as I've outlined before.But this is not Bayse's fight. He's the general manager of a public ski area. What is he supposed to do? Send the $9 million back to the legislature and tell them to give it to Holiday Mountain? His job is to help prioritize projects and then make sure they get done. And he's really good at that job. So that – and not bureaucratic decisions that he has no control over – was where I took this conversation.No need to rewrite it for Whiteface because the sentiment is exactly the same.What I got wrongI called the Empire trail “Vampire” because that's what I'd thought Kellett had called it and I'm not generally great about memorizing trail names. But no such trail exists. Sorry Whiteface Nation.I said the mid-mountain lodge burned down in “2018 or 2019.” The exact date was Nov. 30, 2019.I said that there had been “on the order of a billion dollars in improvements to ORDA facilities over the past decade… or at least several hundred million.” The actual number, according to a recent report in Adirondack Life, is $552 million over just six years.Why you should ski WhitefaceTwo hundred and ninety-nine acres doesn't sound like much, like something that fell off the truck while Vail was putting the Back Bowls in storage for the summer, like a mountain you could exhaust in a morning on a set of burners over fresh cord.But this is a state-owned mountain, and they measure everything in that meticulous bureaucratic way of The Official. Each mile of trail is measured and catalogued and considered. Because it has to be: New York State's constitution sets limits on how many miles of trails each of its owned mountains can develop. So constrained, the western wand-wavers, who typically count skiable acreage as anything within their development boundary, would be much more frugal in their accounting.So step past that off-putting stat – it's clear from the trailmap that options at Whiteface abound - to focus on this one: 3,166 feet of lift-served vert. That's not some wibbly-wobbly claim: this is real, straight-down, relentless fall line skiing. It's glorious. Yes, the pitch moderates below the mid-mountain lodge, but this is, top to bottom, one of the best pure ski mountains in America.And if you hit it just right and they crack open The Slides, you will feel, for a couple thousand vertical feet, like you're skiing off the scary side of Lone Peak at Big Sky or the Cirque at Snowbird. Wild terrain, steep and furious, featured and forlorn. It is the only terrain pod in the Northeast that sometimes requires an avalanche transceiver and shovel. It's that serious.There's also the history side, the pride, the pomp. Most mountains in New York feel comfortably local, colloquial almost, as though you'd stumbled onto some small town's Founder's Day Parade. But Whiteface carries the aura of the self-aware Olympian that it is, a cosmopolitan outpost in the middle of nowhere, a place where skiers from all over converge to see what's going on. As the only eastern U.S. mountain to ever host the games, Whiteface has a big legacy to carry, and it holds it with a bold pride that you must see to understand.Podcast NotesOn the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA)If you're wondering what ORDA is, here's the boilerplate:The New York State Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA) was originally created by the State of New York to manage the facilities used during the 1980 Olympic Winter Games at Lake Placid. Today, ORDA operates multiple venues including the Olympic Center, Olympic Jumping Complex, Mt. Van Hoevenberg, Whiteface Mountain, Gore Mountain & Belleayre Mountain. In January 2023, many of ORDA's venues were showcased to the world as they played host the Lake Placid 2023 Winter World University Games, spanning 11 days, 12 sports, and over 600 competing universities from around the world.To understand why “ORDA” is a four-letter word among New York's independent ski area operators, read this piece in Adirondack Life, or this op-ed by Plattekill owner Laszlo Vajtay on efforts to expand neighboring Belleayre.On the Whiteface UMPEach of ORDA's three ski areas maintains a Unit Management Plan, outlining proposed near- and long-term improvements. Here's Whiteface's most recent amendment, from 2022, which shows a potential new, longer Freeway lift, among other improvements:The version that I refer to in my conversation with Kellett, however, is from the 2018 UMP amendment:On the Lifts that used to serve Whiteface's midmountainKellett discusses the kooky old lift configuration that served the midmountain from Whiteface's main base before the Face Lift high-speed quad arrived in 2002. Here's a circa 2000 trailmap, which shows a triple chair with a midstation running alongside a double chair that ends at the midstation. It's similar to the current setup of the side-by-side Little Whiteface and Mountain Run doubles (unchanged today from the map below), which Kellett tells us on the podcast “doesn't really work for us”:On the renaissance at BelleayreI referenced the incredible renaissance at Whiteface's sister mountain, Belleayre, which I covered after a recent visit last month:Seven years ago, Belleayre was a relic, a Catskills left-behind, an awkward mountain bisected by its own access road. None of the lifts connected in a logical way. Snowmaking was… OK.Then, in 2016, the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA), the state agency that manages New York State's other two ski areas (Whiteface and Gore), took over management at Belle. Spectacular sums of money poured in: an eight-passenger gondola and trail connecting the upper and lower mountains in 2017; a new quad (Lightning) to replace a set of antique double-doubles in 2019; a dramatic base lodge expansion and renovation in 2020; and, everywhere, snowmaking, hundreds and hundreds of guns to blanket this hulking Catskills ridge.This year's headline improvement is the Overlook Quad, a 900-ish-vertical-foot fixed-grip machine that replaces the Lift 7 triple. Unlike its predecessor lift, which terminated above its namesake lodge, Overlook crosses the parking lot on a skier bridge crafted from remnants of the old Hudson-spanning Tappan Zee Bridge, then meets Lightning just below its unload.With these two lifts now connected, Belleayre offers three bottom-to-top paths. A new winder called Goat Path gives intermediates a clear ski to the bottom, a more thrilling option than meandering (but pleasant) Deer Run (off the gondy), or Roaring Brook (off the Belleayre high-speed quad).Belle will never be a perfect ski mountain. It's wicked steep for 20 or 30 turns, then intermediate-ish down to mid-mountain, then straight green to the bottom (I personally enjoy this idiosyncratic layout). But right now, it feels and skis like a brand-new ski area. Along with West Mountain and the soon-to-be-online Holiday Mountain, Belleayre is a candidate for most-improved ski area in New York State, a showpiece for renaissance through aggressive investment. Here's the mountain today - note how all the lifts now knot together into a logical network:On Beartown ski areaKellett mentions Beartown, a 150-vertical-foot surface-lift bump an hour north of Whiteface. Like many little town hills across America, Beartown uses its Facebook page as a de facto website. Here's a recent trailmap (the downhill operation is a footnote to the sprawling cross-country network):On the Miracle on IceIf you're not a sportsball fan, you may not be familiar with the Miracle on Ice, which is widely considered one of the greatest upsets in sports history. The United States hockey team, improbably, defeated the four-time-defending Olympic champion Soviet Union at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics. The U.S. went on to defeat Finland in their final game to win the gold medal. This is a pretty good retrospective from a local Upstate New York news station:And this is what it looked like live:On Andrew WeibrechtKellett tells us that the Warhorse chairlift, built to replace the Bear and Mixing Bowl doubles in 2021, is named after Andrew Weibrecht, a ski racer who grew up at Whiteface. You can follow him on Instapost here.On Marble MountainThe main reason the U.S. has so many lost ski areas is that we didn't always know how or where to build ski areas. Which means we cut trails where there were hills but not necessarily consistent ski conditions. Such is the case with Whiteface, which is the historical plan B after the state's first attempt at a ski area on the mountain failed. This was Marble Mountain, which operated from 1935 to 1960 on a footprint that slightly overlaps present-day Whiteface:Whiteface opened in 1958, on the north side of the same mountain. This contemporary trailmap shows the Cloudsplitter trail, which Kellett tells us was part of Marble Mountain, connecting down to Whiteface:That trail quickly disappeared from the map:For decades, the forest moved in. Until, in 2008, Whiteface installed the Lookout Mountain Triple and revived the trail, now known as “Hoyt's High”:So, why did Marble Mountain go away? This excellent 2015 article from Skiing History lays it out:To get the full benefit of the sweeping northern vista from the newly widened Wilmington Trail at Whiteface Mountain near Lake Placid, pick a calm day. Otherwise, get ready for a blast of what ski historian and meteorologist Jeremy Davis characterizes as “howling, persistent winds” that 60 years ago brought down Marble Mountain. Intended to be New York State's signature ski resort in the 1950s, Marble lasted just 10 years before it closed. It remains the largest ski area east of the Mississippi to be abandoned.It turns out you can't move the mountain, so the state moved the ski area: The “new” Whiteface resort, dedicated in 1958, is just around the corner. With 87 trails and 3,430 vertical feet, Whiteface played host to the 1980 Winter Olympic alpine events and continues to host international and national competitions regularly. How close was Marble Mountain to Whiteface? Its Porcupine Lodge, just off the new Lookout Mountain chairlift, is still used by the Whiteface ski patrol.Full read recommended.On Gore's glade network versus Whiteface'sIn case you haven't noticed, Whiteface's sister resort, Gore, has a lights-out glade network:I've long wondered why Whiteface hasn't undertaken a similarly ambitious trailblazing project. Kellett clarifies in the podcast.On The SlidesThe Slides are a rarely open extreme-skiing zone hanging off Whiteface's summit. In case you overlooked them on the trailmap above, here's a zoom-in view:New York Ski Blog has put together a lights-out guide to this singular domain, with a turn-by-turn breakdown of Slides 1 through 4.On there being noplace to stay on the mountainWhile Whiteface and sister mountains Gore and Belleayre currently offer no slopeside lodging, I believe that they ought to, for a number of reasons. One, the revenue from such an enterprise would at least partially offset the gigantic tax subsidies that currently feed these mountains' capital budgets. Two, people want to stay at the mountain. Three, if they can't, they go where they can, which in the case of New York means Vermont or Jiminy Peak. Four, every person who is not staying at the mountain is driving there each morning in a polluting or congestion-causing vehicle. Five, yes I agree that endless slopeside condos are an eyesore, but the raw wilderness surrounding these three mountains grants ORDA a generational opportunity to construct dense, walkable, car-free villages that could accommodate thousands of skiers at varying price points within minimal acreage. In fact, the Bear Den parking lot at Whiteface, the main parking lot at Gore, and the lower parking lot at Belleayre would offer sufficient space to house humans instead of machines (or both – the cars could go underground). Long-term, U.S. skiing is going to need more of this and less everyone-drives-everyday clusterfucks.  On the M.A.X. PassI will remain forever miffed that Alterra did not invite Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre to join the Ikon Pass when it cleaned out and shut down the M.A.X. Pass in 2018. Here was that pass' roster – skiers could clock five days at each ski area:On multi-mountain pass owners on Indy PassEvery once in a while, some knucklehead will crack on social media that Whiteface could never join the Indy Pass because it's part of a larger ownership group, and therefore doesn't qualify. But they are reading the brand too literally. Indy doesn't give a s**t – they want the mountains that are going to sell passes, which is why their roster includes 22 ski areas that are owned by multi-mountain operators, including Jay Peak, its top redeemer for three seasons running:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 114/100 in 2023, and number 499 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Dec. 28. It dropped for free subscribers on Jan. 4. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoJon Schaefer, Owner and General Manager of Berkshire East, Massachusetts and Catamount, straddling the border of Massachusetts and New YorkRecorded onDecember 6, 2023About the mountainsBerkshire EastClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Schaefer familyLocated in: Charlemont, MassachusettsYear founded: 1960Pass affiliations:* Berkshire Summit Pass: Unlimited Access* Indy Base Pass: 2 days with blackouts (reservations required)* Indy+ Pass: 2 days, no blackouts (reservations required)Closest neighboring ski areas: Eaglebrook School (:36), Brattleboro (:48), Hermitage Club (:48), Mt. Greylock Ski Club (:52), Mount Snow (:55), Jiminy Peak (:56), Bousquet (:56); Catamount is approximately 90 minutes south of Berkshire EastBase elevation: 660 feetSummit elevation: 1,840 feetVertical drop: 1,180 feetSkiable Acres: 180Average annual snowfall: 110 inchesTrail count: 45Lift count: 7 (1 high-speed quad, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Berkshire East's lift fleet)View historic Berkshire East trailmaps on skimap.org.CatamountClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Schaefer familyLocated in: Hillsdale, New York and South Egremont, Massachusetts (the resort straddles the state line, and generally seems to use the New York address as its location of record)Year founded: 1939Pass affiliations:* Berkshire Summit Pass: Unlimited Access* Indy Base Pass and Indy+ Pass: 2 days, no blackouts (reservations required)Closest neighboring ski areas: Butternut (:19), Otis Ridge (:35), Bousquet (:40), Mohawk Mountain (:46), Jiminy Peak (:50), Mount Lakeridge (:55), Mt. Greylock Ski Club (1:02); Berkshire East sits approximately 90 minutes north of CatamountBase elevation: 1,000 feetSummit elevation: 2,000 feetVertical drop: 1,000 feetSkiable Acres: 133 acresAverage annual snowfall: 108 inchesTrail count: 44 (35% green, 42% blue, 23% black/double-black)Lift count: 8 (2 fixed-grip quads, 3 triples, 3 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Catamount's lift fleet)View historic Catamount trailmaps on skimap.org.Why I interviewed himMight I nominate Massachusetts as America's most underappreciated ski state? It's easy to understand the oversight. Bordered by three major ski states that are home to a combined 107 ski areas (50 in New York, 27 in Vermont, and 30 in New Hampshire), Massachusetts contains just 13 active lift-served mountains. Two (Easton School and Mount Greylock Ski Club) are private. Five of the remainder deliver vertical drops of 400 feet or fewer. The state's entire lift-served skiable area clocks in at around 1,300 acres, which is smaller than Killington and just a touch larger than Solitude.But the code and character of those 11 public ski areas is what I'm interested in here. Winnowed from some 200 bumps that once ran ropetows up the incline, these survivors are super-adapters, the Darwinian capstones to a century-long puzzle: how to consistently offer skiing in a hostile world that hates you.New England is a rumbler, and always has been. Outside of northern Vermont's Green Mountain Spine (Sugarbush, MRG, Bolton, Stowe, Smuggs, Jay), which snags 200-plus inches of almost automatic annual snowfall, the region's six states can, on any given day from November to April, stage double as Santa's Village or serve as props for sad brown Christmas pining. Immersive reading of the New England Ski History website suggests this contemporary reality reflects historical norms: prior to the widespread introduction of snowmaking, ski areas could sometimes offer just a single-digit number of ski days in particularly difficult winters. Even now, even in good winters, the freeze-thaw cycle is relentless. The rain-snow line is a thing during big storms. Several times in recent years, including this one, furious December rainstorms have washed out weeks of early-season snow and snowmaking.And yet, like sharks, hanging on for hundreds of millions of years as mass extinctions rolled most of the rest of life into the fossil record, the surviving Massachusetts ski area operators found a way to keep moving forward. But these are not sharks – the Colorado- and Utah-based operators haven't plundered the hills rolling west of Boston just yet. Every one of these ski areas (with the exception of investment fund-owned Bousquet), is still family-owned and operated. And these families are among the smartest ski area operators in America.In October, tiny Ski Ward, owned for decades by the LaCroix family, was the first North American ski area to spin lifts for the 2023-24 ski season. Wachusett, a thousand-footer run by the Crowley family since 1968, is a model home for volume urban skiing efficiency. The Fairbank family transformed Jiminy Peak from tadpole (in the 1960s) to alligator before expanding their small empire into New England (the family now runs Bromley, Vermont and owns Cranmore, New Hampshire). The Murdock family has run Butternut since its 1963 founding, and likely saved nearby Otis Ridge from extinction by purchasing the ski area in 2016 (the Murdocks also purchased, but later closed, another nearby ski area, Ski Blandford).The Schaefers, of Charlemont by way of Michigan, are as wiley and wired as any of them. Patriarch Roy Schaefer drove in from the Midwest with a station wagon full of kids in 1978. He stapled then-bankrupt Berkshire East together with the refuse of dead and dying ski areas from all over America. Some time in the mid- to late-aughts, Roy's son Jon took over daily operations and rapidly modernized the lifts, snowmaking, and trail network. Roy's other son Jim, a Wall-Streeter, helped the family take full ownership of the ski area. In 2018, they bought Catamount, a left-behind bump with fantastic fall lines but dated lifts and snowmaking.None of this is new or news to anyone who pays attention to Massachusetts skiing. In fact, Jon Schaefer has appeared on my podcasts twice before (and I've been on his). But in the four years since he joined me for episode nine, a lot has changed at Berkshire, at Catamount, in New England, and across skiing. Daily, the narrative grows that consolidation and megapasses are squeezing family operators out of skiing. My daily work suggests that the opposite may be happening, that independent operators, who have outlasted skiing's extinction event of the low-snow decades and perfected their mad alchemy through decades of swinging the pickaxe into the same mountain, have never had a better story to tell. And Jon Schaefer has one of the better ways of telling it.What we talked aboutEarly openings for both ski areas; what it means that Catamount opened before Berkshire East this season; snowmaking metaphors that I can guarantee you haven't heard before; letting go of things you love as you take on more responsibility; the power of ropetows; Berkshire East's new T-Bar Express, the ski area's first high-speed quad; why Schaefer finally came around on detachable lift technology; the unique dynamics of a multi-generational, family-owned mountain; the long-term plan for the three current top-to-bottom chairlifts; the potential Berkshire East expansion; yes Berkshire is getting busier; the strange math of high-speed versus fixed-grip quads; that balance between modernizing and retaining atmosphere; the Indy Pass' impact on Berkshire and the industry as a whole; whether more mountains could join the Berkshire Summit Pass; whether the Schaefers could buy another ski area; whether they considered buying Jay Peak or are considering buying Burke; assessing the overhaul of Catamount's lift fleet; talking through the clear-cutting of Catamount's frontside trails; parking at Catamount; expansion potential for Catamount; and Catamount being “one of the best small ski areas in the country.”Below: first chair on the new T-Bar Express at Berkshire East:Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewIf I could somehow itemize and sort the thousands of Storm-related emails and Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook messages that I've read over the past four years, a top-10 request would be some form of this: get Schaefer back on the podcast.There are a couple of reasons for this. One is that Jon is, in my opinion, one of the more unfiltered and original thinkers in skiing. His dad moved the family to Berkshire in 1978. Jon was born in 1980. That means he grew up on the mountain and he lives at the mountain and he holds its past, present, and future in his vision like some shaman of the Berkshires, orchestrating its machinations in a hallucinogenic flow state, crafting, from the ether, a ski area like no other in America.Which leads to the second reason. Because Schaefer is so willful and effective, it can often be difficult for outsiders to see into the eye of the hurricane. You kind of have to let the storm pass. And the past four years have been a bit of a storm, particularly at Catamount, where Covid and supply-chain issues collided with an ambitious but protracted lift-fleet upgrade.But that's all done. Catamount has five functioning chairlifts (all of which, remarkably, were relocated from somewhere else). Berkshire just opened its first high-speed quad, the T-Bar Express. Both mountains are busier than ever, and Berkshire is a perennial Indy Pass top 10 by number of redemptions. And while expansion and a lift shuffle likely loom at Berkshire, both ski areas are, essentially, what the Schaefers want them to be.Which doesn't mean they are ever finished. Schaefer and I touch on this existential reality in the podcast, but we also discuss the other obvious question: now that Catamount's gut-renovation is wrapping up, what's next? Could this ski family, with their popular Berkshire Summit Pass (which is also good at Bousquet), expand with more owned or partner mountains? There are, after all, only so many people in America who know how to capably operate a ski area. You can learn, sure, but most people suck at it, which is (one reason) why there are more lost ski areas than active ones. While I don't root for consolidation necessarily, if ski areas are going to transfer ownership, I'd rather someone proven sign the deed than an unknown. And when it comes to proven, the Schaefers have proven as much as anyone in the country.Questions I wish I'd askedAt some point over the past few years, the Schaefers purchased a Rossland, B.C.-based Cat skiing operation called Big Red Cats. Their terrain covers 20,000 acres on eight peaks. I'm not sure why we didn't get into it.What I got wrongI said that Indy Pass had 130 alpine partners. That was correct on Dec. 6, when we conducted the interview, but the pass has since added Moose Mountain, Alaska and Hudson Bay Mountain, B.C., bringing the total up to 132.Why you should ski Berkshire East and CatamountWhile age, injuries, perspective, volume, skiing with children, and this newsletter have all changed my approach to where and what I ski on any given day, the thing I still love most is the fight. Riding the snowy mountain, in its bruising earthly form, through its trees and drops and undulations, feeling part of something raw and wild. I don't like speed. I like technical and varied terrain that requires deliberate, thoughtful turns. This I find profoundly interesting, like a book that offers, with each page, a captivating new thing.Massachusetts is a great ski state, but it doesn't have a lot of what I just described, that sort of ever-rolling wickedness you'll find clinging to certain mountains in Vermont and New Hampshire. But the state does have one such ski area: Berkshire East. She's ready to fight. Glades and bumps and little cliffs in the woods. Jiminy and Wachusett give you high-speed lifts and operational excellence, but they don't give you (more than nominal) trees. For a skier looking to summon a little Mad River Glen but save themselves a three-hour drive, Berkshire East goes on the storm-chase list.But unlike MRG, Berkshire is a top-to-bottom snowmaking house, and it has to be. While the glades are amazing when you can get them, the operating assumption here is that, more often than not, you can't. And that means the vast majority of skiers – those who prefer groomers to whatever frolics you find in the trees – can head to Berkshire knowing a good day awaits.Catamount, less-snowy and closer to New York City, gives you a more traditional Massachusetts ski experience. More people (it seems), less exploring in the trees (though you can do this a bit). What it has in common with Berkshire is that Catamount is an excellent natural ski mountain. Fall lines, headwalls, winders through the trees. A thousand vert gives you a good run. Head there on a weekday in March, when the whole joint is open, and let them run.Podcast NotesOn Schaefer's previous podcast appearancesSchaefer was the first person to ever agree to join me on The Storm Skiing Podcast, answering my cold email in about four seconds. “Let's do it,” he wrote. It took us a few months to make it happen, but he joined me for episode nine. While he showed up huge, the episode also doubles as a showcase for how much better my own production quality has gotten over the past four years. The intro is sorta… flat:A few months later, Schaefer became the first operator in America to shutter his mountains to help stop the spread of Covid-19. He almost immediately launched an organization called Goggles for Docs, and he joined me on my “Covid-19 & Skiing” miniseries to discuss the initiative:The next year, I joined Jon on his Berkshire Sessions podcast, where we discussed his mountains and Northeast skiing in general:On historic opening and closing dates at Berkshire East and CatamountWe discussed Berkshire and Catamount's historical opening and closing dates. Here's what the past 10 years looked like (the Schaefers took over Catamount starting with the 2018-19 ski season):On Berkshire SnowbasinSchaefer discussed the now-defunct Berkshire Basin ski area in nearby Cummington. The ski area operated from 1949 to 1989, according to New England Ski History, and counted a 550-foot vertical drop (though the map below says 500). Here's a circa 1984 trailmap:Schaefer references efforts to re-open this ski area as a backcountry center, though I couldn't find any reporting on the topic.Stan Brown, whom Schaefer cites for his insight that skiers “are more interested in how they get up the mountain than how they get down” founded Berkshire Snow Basin with his wife, Ruth.On high-speed ropetowsI'll never stop yelling about these things until everyone installs one – these high-speed ropetows can move 4,000 skiers per hour and cost all of $50,000. A more perfect terrain park lift does not exist. This one is at Spirit Mountain, Minnesota (video by me):On when the T-bar came out of Berkshire EastSchaefer refers to the old T-bar that occupied the line where the new high-speed quad now sits. The lift did not extend to the summit, but ran 1,800 feet up from the base, along the run that is still known as Competition (lift F below):On Schaefer's past resistance to high-speed liftsShaun Sutner, a longtime snowsports reporter who has appeared on this podcast three times – most recently in November – summarized Schaefer's onetime resistance to detachable lifts in a 2015 Worcester Telegram & Gazette article:The start of the 2014-15 ski season came with the B-East's first-ever summit quad, a $2 million fixed-grip "medium-speed" lift from Skytrac, a new U.S.-owned lift company. The low-maintenance, elegantly simple conveyance will save millions of dollars over the years. Not only was it less than half the cost of a high-speed detachable quad, but it also eliminates the need for $300,000-$500,000 grip replacements that high-speed lifts need every three or four years.So what changed Schaefer's mind? We discussed in the podcast.On the potential Berkshire East expansionWhile Berkshire East has teased an expansion for several years, details remain scarce (rumors, unfortunately, do not). Schaefer tells us what he's willing to on the podcast, and this image, which the resort presented to a local planning board last year, shows the approximate location of the new terrain pod (around the red dotted line labeled “4”):While this plan suggests the Mountain Top Triple would move to serve the expansion, that may not necessarily be the final plan, Schaefer confirms.On “the gondola side of Stowe” When Schaefer says that the Berkshire expansion will ski like “the gondola side of Stowe,” he's referring to the terrain pod indicated below:Stowe has two gondolas, one of which connects Stowe proper to Spruce Peak, but that's not the terrain he's referring to. The double chair side of Plattekill also skis in the way Schaefer describes, as a series of figure-eights that delightfully frazzles the senses, making the ski area feel far larger than it actually is:On Indy Pass rankingsBerkshire East has finished as a top-10 mountain in number of Indy Pass redemptions every season:On LiftopiaSchaefer references Liftopia, a former online lift ticket broker whose legacy is fading. At one time, I was a huge fan of this Expedia-of-skiing site, where you could score substantial discounts to most major non-Vail ski areas. I hosted founder and CEO Evan Reece way back on podcast number 8:Sadly, the company collapsed with the onset of Covid, as I documented back in 2020:…the industry's most-prominent pure tech entity – Liftopia – has been teetering on existential collapse since failing to pay significant numbers of its partners following the March shutdown. A group of ski area operators tried forcing Liftopia into bankruptcy to recoup their funds. They failed, then appealed, then withdrew that appeal. Outside of the public record, bitter and betrayed ski area operators fumed about the loss of revenues that, as Aspen Snowmass CFO Matt Jones wrote in emails filed in federal court, “were never yours to begin with.” In August, Liftopia CEO Evan Reece announced that he had signed a letter of intent to sell the company.That new owner, Liftopia announced Friday, would be Skitude, a European tech outfit specializing in mobile apps. “The proceeds from the sale will be used to pay creditors,” SAM reported. In an email to an independent ski area operator that was shared with The Storm Skiing Journal Reece wrote that “…all claims will be treated equally,” without specifying whether partners could expect a full or partial repayment. The message also indicated that the new owner may “prioritize ongoing partners,” though it was unclear whether that indicated preference in future business terms or payback of owed funds, or something else altogether.Whatever the outcome, this unsatisfying story is a tale of enormous missed opportunity. No company was better positioned to help lift-served skiing adapt to the social-distancing age than Liftopia. It could have easily expanded and adapted its highly regarded technology to accommodate the almost universal shift to online-only sales for lift tickets, rental reservations, ski lessons, and even appointment times in the lodge. It had 15 years of brand recognition with customers and deep relationships within the ski industry.But ski areas, uncertain about Liftopia's future, have spent an offseason when they could have been building out their presence on a familiar platform scrambling for replacement tech solutions. In addition to the Liftopia-branded site, many ski areas used Liftopia's Cloud Store platform to sell day tickets, season passes, rentals, and more. While it is unclear how many former partners shifted to another point-of-sale system this offseason, several have confirmed to The Storm Skiing Journal that they have done so.I'm not sure how Liftopia would have faired against the modern version of the Indy Pass, but more choice is almost always better for consumers, and I'm still bitter about how this one collapsed.On CaddyshackMovie quotes are generally lost on me, but Schaefer references this one from Caddyshack, so I looked it up and this is what the robots fed me:On the majority of skier visits now being on a season passAccording to the National Ski Areas Association, season pass holders have surpassed day-ticket buyers for total number of skier visits for four consecutive seasons. Without question, this is simply because the industry has gotten very good at incentivizing season pass sales by rolling the most well-known ski areas onto the Epic and Ikon passes. It is unclear whether the NSAA counts the Indy or Mountain Collective passes as season passes, but the number of each of those sold is small in comparison to Epic and Ikon.On the Berkshire Summit PassThe Schaefers have been leaders in establishing compelling regional multimountain ski passes. The Berkshire Summit Pass has, since 2020, delivered access to three solid western Massachusetts ski areas: Berkshire East, Catamount, and partner mountain Bousquet (on the unlimited version only). It is available in unlimited, Sunday through Friday, midweek, and nights-only versions. An Indy Pass add-on makes this a badass cross-New England ski product.On Burke being great and accessible even though it looks as though it's parked at the ass-end of nowhereThe first piece of ski writing I ever published was a New York Ski Blog recap of a Burke ski day in 2019:Last week, winter seemed to be winding down, with above-freezing temps forecast clear up to Canada before St. Patrick's Day. Desperate to extend winter, I had my sights on a storm forecast to dump nearly a foot of new snow across northern Vermont. After considering my options, I locked onto a hill I'd overlooked in 20 years of skiing Vermont: Burke.I'd read the online commentary: steep, funky, heavily gladed, classic New England twisty with high-quality snow well-preserved by cold temps and a lack of crowds. But to get there you have to drive past some big-name ski areas, most with equal or greater vertical drop, skiable acreage and average annual snowfall.Further research uncovered a secret Burke advantage over its better-known neighbors: unlike other mountains that require a post-expressway slog of 30-plus miles on local roads, Burke sits just seven miles off Interstate 91, meaning it was actually the closest northern Vermont option by drive time.As 10 inches of snow piled up Sunday and Monday and areas to the south teeter-tottered along a freeze-thaw cycle that would turn ungroomed trails to granite, Burke looked like my last best shot at mid-winter conditions.Two days after the storm, on the last day of below-freezing temps, I left Brooklyn at 4 am and arrived at 9:15. Read the rest…On Burke's (mostly) hapless ownership historyWe talk quite a bit about Burke Mountain, one of those good New England ski areas with a really terrible business record. Schaefer refers to the unusually huge number of former owners, which, according to New England Ski History, include:* 1964: Burke Mountain Recreation (Doug Kitchel) buys area; eventually went bankrupt* 1987: Paul D. Quinn buys, eventually sells to bank after his bank goes bankrupt* 1990: Hilco, Inc., a bank, takes ownership, then sells to…* 1991: Bernd Schaefers (no relation to Jon), under whom the ski area eventually went bankrupt (for the second time)* 1995: Northern Star Ski Corporation (five owners) buys the ski area, but it eventually goes bankrupt for a third time* 2000: Unidentified auction winner buys Burke and sells it to…* 2000: Burke Mountain Academy, who never wanted to be long-term owner, and sold to…* 2005: Laubert-Adler and the Ginn Corporation, who sold to…* 2012: Aerial Quiros, who engaged in all kinds of shadiness* 2016: Burke becomes the property of U.S. America, as court-appointed receiver takes control of this and Jay Peak. While Jay sold last year, Burke remains for saleOn media reports indicating that there is a bid on BurkeI got excited earlier this year, when the excellent Vermont Digger reported that the sales process for Burke appeared to be underway:Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed receiver in charge of overseeing Burke Mountain ski resort for more than seven years, has an offer to buy the scandal-plagued ski resort in Vermont's Northeast Kingdom.News of the bid came from a recent court filing submitted by Goldberg, predicting that a sale of the property would take place “later this year.”The filing does not name the bidder or the amount of the bid, but the document stated that Goldberg wants to continue to seek qualified buyers, and if a matching or higher price is offered, an auction would be held to sell the resort. …“The Receiver has received an initial offer, and expects to file a motion with the Court in the next month recommending an identical sales process to the Jay Peak sale – a ‘stalking horse' bid, followed by an auction and a subsequent motion asking the Court to approve a final sale,” Goldberg stated in his recent court filing regarding Burke.Well, nothing happened, though the bid remains active, as far as I know. So who knows. I hope whoever buys Burke next, this place can finally stabilize and build.On the West Mountain expansion at CatamountSchaefer discusses a potential expansion at Catamount. New England Ski History hosts a summary page for this one as well:A lift and a variety of trails are proposed for the west side of the ski area, crossing over the Lower Sidewinder trail. The lift would climb 650 vertical feet from a new parking lot to the junction of Upper and Lower Sidewinder. 6 trail segments would be cut above and below the lower switchback of the Lower Sidewinder Trail. All of the terrain would be located in New York state.Here's a circa 2014 map, showing the proposed expansion looker's right:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 113/100 in 2023, and number 498 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. This is a public episode. 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You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoBen Wilcox, President and General Manager of Cranmore Mountain Resort, New HampshireRecorded onOctober 16, 2023About CranmoreClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Fairbank GroupLocated in: North Conway, New HampshireYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations: NoneReciprocal partners: 1 day each at Jiminy Peak and BromleyClosest neighboring ski areas: Attitash (:16), Black Mountain (:18), King Pine (:28), Wildcat (:28), Pleasant Mountain (:33), Bretton Woods (:42)Base elevation: 800 feetSummit elevation: 2,000 feetVertical drop: 1,200 feetSkiable Acres: 170 acresAverage annual snowfall: 80 inchesTrail count: 56 (15 most difficult, 25 intermediate, 16 easier)Lift count: 7 (1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 1 double, 2 carpets)Why I interviewed himNowhere does a high-speed quad transform the texture and fate of a mountain so much as in New England. Western mountains, geographically dispersed and disposed to sunshine, can still sell you a ride on a 1,700-vertical-foot fixed grip triple, as Montana Snowbowl did with their new Transporter lift last year, and which Mt. Spokane has promised to do should the ski area ever upgrade its Jurassic Riblets. Midwest hills are too short for lift speed to matter as anything other than a novelty.But in the blustery, frenetic East, a single detachable lift can profoundly alter a ski area's reach and rap. Such lifts have proven to be stabilizing mechanisms at Burke, Gunstock, Ragged, Bromley, and Saddleback – mountains without the terrain or marketing heft of their much-larger neighbors. In each case, one high-speed quad (and a sixer at Ragged), cracked the mountain open to the masses, uniting all or most of the terrain with one six-minute lift ride and, often, stabilizing operations that had struggled for decades.Cranmore is one such mountain. Had the Skimobile Express quad not gone up in 1995, Wilcox tells us on the podcast, he's not so sure that the ski area hanging over North Conway would have gotten out of the last century alive. A “dark period” followed the Skimobile's 1990 demolition, Wilcox says, during which Cranmore, tottering along on a double chair strung to the summit, fell behind its high-dollar, high-energy, rapidly consolidating competitors. The Skimobile had been pokey and inefficient, but at least it was freighted with nostalgia. At least it was novel. At least it was cool. An old double chair was just an old double chair, and local skiers had lost interest in those when high-speed lifts started rising up the New England mountainsides in the late 1980s.It's true that a handful of New England ski areas continue to rely on antique doubles: Smugglers' Notch, Magic, Black Mountain in New Hampshire, Mt. Abram. But Smuggs delivers 300 inches of snow per winter and a unique, sprawling terrain network. The rest are improbable survivors. Magic sat idle for half the ‘90s. We nearly lost Black earlier this month. All anybody knows about Mt. Abram is that it's not Sunday River.The Skimobile Express did not, by itself, save Cranmore. If such a lift were such a magic trick, then we'd still be skiing the top of Ascutney today (yes Uphill Bro I know you still are). But the lift helped. A lot.There is a tendency among skiers to conflate history with essence. As though a ski area, absent the trappings of its 1930s or ‘40s or ‘50s origins, loses something. These same skiers, however, do not rip around on 240s clapped to beartrap bindings or ski in top hats and mink shawls. Cranmore could not simply be The Ski Area With The Skimobile forever and ever. Not after every other ski area in New England, including Cranmore, had erected multiple chairlifts. There is a small market for such tricks. Mad River Glen can spin its single chair for 100 more years if the co-op ownership model holds up. But that is a rowdy, rugged hunk of real estate, 2,000 feet of nasty, a place where being uncomfortable is half the point. Cranmore… is not.So Cranmore changed. It is now a nice, modern, mid-sized New England ski area, with a 1,200-foot vertical drop and a hotel at the base. More important, it is an 86-year-old New England ski area, one that began in the era when guys named Harv and Mel and Bob and Jenkins showed up with a hacksaw and a 12-pack and started building a lift-served snowskiing operation, and transitioned into a new identity suited to a new world. Wilcox, with his grasp of the resort's sprawling, mad history, is a capable ambassador to tell us how they did it.What we talked aboutThe new Fairbank base lodge; what Cranmore found when they tore down the old lodge; the future of Zip's Pub; who the lodge is named after; the base lodge redevelopment plan; what happened when the Fairbanks purchased Cranmore; North Conway; traffic; Bretton Woods; Booth Creek; Cranmore pride; “if [the Skimobile Express] hadn't gone in in the mid-90s, I'm not sure if we'd still be here”; the Skimobile Express upgrade and why Cranmore didn't replace it with a new lift; the history of America's Zaniest lift, the original Skimobile; why Cranmore ultimately demolished the structure; potential upgrades for Lookout; the long-rumored but never-built Blackcap expansion; the glory and grind of southern exposure; night skiing; what happened when Vail came to town; competing against discount Epic Passes; why the days of car-counting are over; the history and logic behind the White Mountain Super Pass and the Sun and Snow Pass; Black Mountain; staffing up when your biggest rival raises minimum wage to $20 an hour; and whether Cranmore has considered a Jiminy Peak-esque wind turbine.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewThe Fairbank Group did something unsung and brilliant over the past two years. While major resorts across the continent razed and replaced first-generation detachables at a per-project cost approaching or exceeding double-digit millions, Cranmore (which Fairbank owns), and Bromley (which they operate), modernized in a more modest way. Rather than tearing down the high-speed quads that act as base-to-summit people-movers for each ski area, they gut-renovated them. For around $1 million per lift, Bromley's Sun Mountain Express and Cranmore's Skimobile Express got new, modern drives, comms lines, safety systems, and more. The result: two essentially brand-new lifts with three-plus decades of good life ahead of them.Skiers may not see it that way, and most won't even know about the upgrades. The aesthetics, mostly, remain unchanged. But for independent ski area operators knocked into eyes-bulging terror as they see price quotes for a Double Clutch Z-Link Awesomeness 42-passenger Express Lift, the Fairbank model offers an approachable alternative. Knock down the walls, but keep the building intact, a renovation rather than a rebuild.Boyne does this all the time, mostly with lifts the company is relocating: the Kanc quad at Loon becomes the Seven Brothers quad; Big Sky's Swift Current quad becomes Sugarloaf's Bucksaw Express; Sunday River's Jordan quad is, someday, maybe, supposedly going to land at Pleasant Mountain. Sugarloafers may grumble on their message boards about getting a used quad while Sunday River erects its second D-Line bubble lift in two years, but, as Loon President/GM Brian Norton told me about the Seven Brothers upgrade on the podcast last year, the effect of such projects are that skiers get “a new lift… you won't recognize it.” Other than the towers and the chairs, the machine parts of these machines really are brand new.Cranmore and its sister resorts have found a different way to sustainably operate, is my point here. The understated chairlift upgrades are just one expression of this. But both operate, remember, in impossible neighborhoods. Bromley is visible from almost any point on Alterra-owned Stratton, Southern Vermont's Ikon Pass freight train. Cranmore sits just down the road from Vail-owned Attitash and Wildcat, both of which are larger, and both of which share a pass – which, by the way, is less expensive than Cranmore's – with each other and with their 20 or 50 or 60 best friends, depending upon how Epic you want your winter to be. The local lift-served skiing market is so treacherous that Black Mountain, less than 11 miles north of Cranmore and in continuous operation since 1935, was saved from permanent closure last week only when Indy Pass called in the cavalry.Yet, Cranmore thrives. Wilcox says that season pass sales continue to increase every year. Going into year five of Northeast-specific Epic Pass offerings and year six of the Ikon Pass, that's an amazing statistic. Cranmore's pass is not cheap. The early-bird adult price for the 2023-24 ski season came in at $775. It's currently $1,139. For a 1,200-vertical-foot mountain in a state full of 2,000-footers, with just one high-speed lift in a neighborhood where Sunday River runs five, statistical equivalencies quickly fail any attempt to explain this momentum.So what does explain it? Perhaps it's the resort's massive, ongoing base area renovation that landed a new hotel and lodge onsite within the past year. Perhaps it's consumer habit and proximity to North Conway, looming, as the mountain does, over town. Perhaps it's the approachable, just-right size of the mountain or, for families, the fact that all trails funnel back to a single base. Perhaps it's the massive seasonal youth and race programs. It is, most likely, a combination of all of these things, as well as atmospheric intangibles and managerial competence.Whatever it is, Cranmore shows us that a pathway exists for a Very Good Mountain to thrive in the megapass era without being a direct party to it. It's worth noting that Black, which nearly failed, is a fifth-year member of Indy Pass, which Cranmore has declined to join. While this conversation with Wilcox does not exactly explain how the mountain has been so successful even as it sidesteps megatrends, it's easy enough to appreciate, as you listen to his passion for and appreciation of the place, why it does.What I got wrongI noted that the Skimobile Express quad had been upgraded “last year, or maybe the year before.” Cranmore completed the lift overhaul in 2022.I referred to Vail's Northeast Value Epic Pass as the “Northeast Local Pass.”Why you should ski CranmoreThe New England Ski Safari is not quite the social media meme that it is in the big-mountain West, where Campervan Karl and Bearded Bob document their season-long adventures over switchbacking passes with their trusty dog, Labrador Larry. Alta/Snowbird to Jackson to Big Sky to Sun Valley to Tahoe with a sickness Brah. Hella wicked rad. Six weeks and 16 storms, snowshovels in the roof box and Larry pouncing through snow in IG Stories.Distance is not such an obstacle in the East. New England crams 100 ski areas into a six-state region half the size of Montana (which is home to just 17, two of which it shares with Idaho). Between pow runs we can just… go home. But the advent of the megapass in the Northeast over the past decade has enabled this sort of resort-hopping adventure. Options abound:* Epic Pass gives you three of Vermont's largest ski areas (Okemo, Mount Snow, Stowe); one of New England's best ski areas (also Stowe); and four stops in New Hampshire, three of which (Mount Sunapee, Wildcat, and Attitash), are sizeable. Crotched gives you night skiing.* Ikon Pass delivers four of New England's biggest, best, and most complete ski areas: Killington, Sugarbush, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf; as well as two of its best lift systems (Stratton and Loon – yes, I know the gondolas are terrible at both); and a sleepy bomber in Pico.* Indy Pass gives you perhaps New England's best ski area (Jay Peak); three other mountains that stack up favorably with anything on Epic or Ikon (Waterville Valley, Cannon, Saddleback); and a stack of unheralded thumpers where light crowds and great terrain collide (Black Mountain of Maine, Black Mountain NH, Magic, Bolton Valley, Berkshire East); and a bunch of family-friendly bumps (Whaleback, Dartmouth Skiway, Pats Peak, Saskadena Six, Mohawk, Catamount, Bigrock).Hit any of those circuits, and you're bound for a good winter. So why tack on an extra? Cranmore is one of the few large New England independents (along with Bretton Woods, Smugglers' Notch, Mad River Glen, Bromley), to so far decline megapass membership. That makes it a tricker sell to the rambling resort-hopper.But this is not Colorado. You can score a Cranmore lift ticket for as little as $65 on select Sundays, even in mid-winter, (including, as of this writing, the always raucous St. Patrick's Day). If you're skiing Attitash and staying in North Conway, you can roll up to Cranmore starting at 2 p.m. on Wednesday or Saturday for a $69 night-ski and some pre-dinner turns.And it's worth the visit. This is a very good ski mountain. The stats undersell the place. It skis and feels big. The fall lines are sustained and excellent. Glades are more abundant than the trailmap suggests. The grooming is outstanding. It faces south – a not unimportant feature in often-frigid New England.Even if you're megapass Bro (and who among us is not?), this one fits right into the circuit, close to Attitash, Black, Wildcat, Cannon, Loon, Waterville. It's easy to ski multiple New England mountains on a single trip, or even in a single day. The last time I skied Cranmore, I cranked through 17 high-speed laps in three hours and then bumped over to Pleasant Mountain, half an hour down the road.Podcast NotesOn Hans SchneiderHenry Dow Gibson, who New England Ski History refers to as an “international financier” founded Cranmore in 1937, but it was Austrian ski instructor Hannes Schneider who institutionalized the place. Per New England Ski History:Hannes Schneider was born on June 24, 1890 in Stuben, a small town west of Arlberg Pass in Austria. At the age of 8, Schneider started skiing on makeshift skis.While becoming a renowned skier in his teenage years, Schneider developed the Arlberg technique. The Arlberg technique quickly caught on, resulting in Schneider becoming in demand for demonstrations, films, and military training.Following Nazi Germany taking Austria in the Anschluss, Schneider was imprisoned March 12, 1938.In January of 1937, international financier Harvey Gibson purchased land on Cranmore Mountain in Conway with the aim to make North Conway a winter destination. Two years later, after lawyer Karl Rosen managed to transfer Schneider from prison to house arrest, Gibson leveraged his firm's German holdings and negotiated with Heinrich Himmler to get Schneider and his family released from Germany and transported to the United States. Following a massive welcoming party in North Conway in February of 1939, Schneider took over Cranmore and worked quickly to make it one of the best known ski areas in the country.One of Schneider's first big decisions at Cranmore was to expand lift service to the summit, which was accomplished during his first full season when the upper section of the Skimobile was installed. With top to bottom Skimobile coverage, Cranmore was second only to Cannon's tram in terms of continuous lift served vertical drop in New England.With the onset of World War II, Hannes was reportedly involved in the training and providing intelligence for United States and British ski troops. His son Herbert served in the 10th Mountain Division during World War II, earning a Bronze Star for his heroic actions in Italy. Following the war, Herbert returned to North Conway to work for his father.In 1949, Hannes Schneider was hired to oversee construction of the new Blue Hills ski area outside of Boston, Massachusetts. Schneider referred to the ski area was "Little Cranmore."In the spring of 1955, Schneider was actively working to open new terrain at Cranmore, serviced by its first chairlift. Following a day of laying out new terrain in what would become the East Bowl, Schneider died of a heart attack. Schneider's son Herbert assumed control of the Cranmore ski school and, circa 1963 started a two decade run as owner of the ski area.Schneider's name lives on at Cranmore, as a trail (Schneider in the East Bowl) and the annual Hannes Schneider Meister Cup Race.On the Fairbank GroupCranmore is owned by the Fairbank Group, whose chairman and namesake, Brian Fairbank, transformed Jiminy Peak from a Berkshires backwater into the glimmering modern heart of Massachusetts skiing. The company also operates Bromley (which is owned by Joseph O'Donnell), and owns a renewable energy operation (EOS Ventures), a ski industry e-learning platform (Bullwheel Productions), and a snowmaking outfit (Snowgun Technologies). For all this and more, including Jiminy Peak's early embrace of clean energy to power its operation, Brian Fairbank earned a spot in the Ski & Snowboard Hall of Fame in 2020. I hosted him on the podcast that autumn to discuss his career and achievements:On Booth Creek Ski HoldingsIn an alternate universe, Booth Creek may stand today on Alterra's throne, Vail's foil in the Skico Wars. For a brief period in the late ‘90s, the company, founded by former Vail and Beaver Creek owner George Gillett Jr., owned eight ski areas across the United States: Cranmore, Loon, Waterville Valley, Grand Targhee, Summit at Snoqualmie, Bear Mountain (now part of Big Bear), Northstar, and Sierra-at-Tahoe. In 1998, the company attempted to purchase Seven Springs, Pennsylvania. But, as this summary chart from New England Ski History shows, Booth Creek began selling off resorts in the early 2000s. Today, it owns only Sierra-at-Tahoe:On the SkimobileHad Cranmore's monolithic Skimobile survived to the present day, most visitors would probably mistake it for a mountain coaster. When it went live, in 1938, skiers likely mistook it for the future. “Well, by gum, a contraption that just takes you right up the mountain while you sit on your heinie. This will change skiing forever!”Instead, the Skimobile, a two-track monster that toted skiers uphill in single-passenger carts, passed five decades as a beloved novelty before Cranmore demolished it in 1990. The New England ski diaspora is still sore about this. But imagine building a Great Wall of China vertically up your mountain. It would kind of make it hard for skiers, Patrol, groomers, etc. to move around the bump. And someone came up with a better idea called a “chairlift.” When the only feasible alternative was the ropetow, the Skimobile probably seemed like the greatest invention since electricity. But once the chairlift proliferated, the shortcomings of a tracked lift became obvious.The Skimobile rose Cranmore's full 1,200 vertical feet in two sections: the lower, built in 1938, and the upper, constructed the following year. Skiers had to disembark the first to take the second. Here's how they laid out in a circa 1951 trailmap:On the potential Black Cap expansionWilcox and I discussed Cranmore's long-proposed Black Cap expansion, which would give Cranmore a several-hundred-acre, several-hundred-vertical-foot boost off the backside. New England Ski History includes the following details in its short write-up of Black Cap:In 1951, Cranmore obtained an easement on 500 acres of land on Black Cap, a ledgy peak located to the east of the ski area. If the ski area were expanded to the top of Black Cap, Cranmore would see an increase of 700 vertical feet to 1,800 feet, making it the second highest in the Mount Washington Valley.Wilcox provides slightly different numbers, but doesn't rule out the possibility of this significant expansion at some future point. The current trailmap shows Black Cap looming in the background:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 91/100 in 2023, and number 477 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on Oct. 13. It dropped for free subscribers on Oct. 20. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe to the free tier below:WhoAmy Ohran, Vice President and General Manager of Northstar, CaliforniaRecorded onOctober 2, 2023About NorthstarClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: EPR Properties, operated by Vail ResortsLocated in: Truckee, CaliforniaYear founded: 1972Pass affiliations:* Epic Pass: unlimited* Epic Local Pass: unlimited with holiday blackouts* Tahoe Local: unlimited with holiday blackouts* Tahoe Value: unlimited with holiday and Saturday blackouts* Epic Day Pass: access with all resorts and 32-resorts tiersClosest neighboring ski areas: Boreal (:21), Tahoe Donner (:22), Palisades Tahoe (:25), Diamond Peak (:25), Soda Springs (:25), Kingvale (:27), Sugar Bowl (:28), Donner Ski Ranch (:29), Mt. Rose (:30), Homewood (:35), Heavenly (:57) - travel times vary considerably pending traffic, weather, and time of year.Base elevation: 6,330 feet (at the village)Summit elevation: 8,610 feet (top of Mt. Pluto)Vertical drop: 2,280 feetSkiable Acres: 3,170 acresAverage annual snowfall: 350 inchesTrail count: 100 (27% advanced, 60% intermediate, 13% beginner)Lift count: 20 (1 six-passenger gondola, 1 pulse gondola, 1 six/eight-passenger chondola, 1 high-speed six pack, 6 high-speed quads, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 1 platter, 1 ropetow, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Northstar's lift fleet)Why I interviewed herI am slowly working my way through the continent's great ski regions. Aspen, Vail, Beaver Creek, Ski Cooper, Keystone, Breckenridge, and A-Basin along the I-70 corridor (Copper is coming). Snowbird, Solitude, Deer Valley, Sundance, and Snowbasin in the Wasatch (Park City is next). Jay Peak, Smugglers' Notch, Bolton Valley, Mad River Glen, Sugarbush, and Killington in Northern Vermont.I'm a little behind in Tahoe. Before today, the only entrants into this worthy tome have been with the leaders of Palisades Tahoe and Heavenly. But I'm working my way around the lake. Northstar today. Mount Rose in November. I'll get to the rest as soon as I'm able (you can always access the full podcast archive, and view the upcoming schedule, here or from the stormskiing.com homepage).I don't only cover megaresorts, of course, and the episodes with family-owned ski area operators always resonate deeply with my listeners. Many of you would prefer that I focus my energies solely on these under-covered gems. But corporate megaresorts matter a lot. They are where the vast majority of skier visits occur, and therefore are the backdrop to most skiers' wintertime stories. I personally love skiing them. They tend to be vast and varied, with excellent lift networks and gladed kingdoms mostly ignored by the masses. The “corporate blandness” so abhorred by posturing Brobots is, in practice, a sort of urban myth of the mountains. Vail Mountain and Stowe have as much quirk and character as Alta and Mad River Glen. Anyone who tells you different either hasn't skied them all, or is confusing popularity with soullessness.Every ski area guards terrain virtues that no amount of marketing can beat out of it. Northstar has plenty: expansive glades, big snowfalls, terrific park, long fall-line runs. Unfortunately, the mountain is the LA Clippers of Lake Tahoe, overshadowed, always, by big Palisades, the LA Lakers of big-time Cali skiing.But Northstar is a hella good ski area, as any NoCal shredder who's honest with themselves will admit. It's not KT-22, but it isn't trying to be. Most skier fantasize about lapping the Mothership, just as, I suppose, many playground basketball players fantasize about dunking from the freethrow line. In truth, most are better off lobbing shots from 15 feet out, just as most skiers are going to have a better day off Martis or Backside at Northstar than off the beastly pistes five miles southwest. But that revelation, relatively easy to arrive at, can be hard for progression-minded skiers to admit. And Northstar, because of that, often doesn't get the credit it deserves. But it's worth a deeper look.What we talked aboutTahoe's incredible 2022-23 winter; hey where'd our trail signs go?; comparing last year's big winter to the record 2016-17 season; navigating the Cottonwoods in a VW Bug; old-school Cottonwoods; rock-climbing as leadership academy; Bend in the 1990s; how two of Tahoe's smallest ski areas stay relevant in a land of giants; the importance of parks culture to Northstar; trying to be special in Tahoe's all-star lineup; Northstar's natural wind protection; who really owns Northstar; potential expansions on Sawtooth Ridge, Lookout Mountain, and Sawmill; potential terrain expansion within the current footprint; last year's Comstock lift upgrade; contemplating the future of the Rendezvous lift; which lift upgrade could come next; the proposed Castle Peak transport gondola; paid parking; the Epic Pass; a little-known benefit of the Tahoe Local Pass; the impact of Saturday blackouts; and Tōst.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewVail Resorts' 2022 Epic Lift upgrade struck me as a mind-bending exercise. Not just because the company was attempting to build 21 new lifts in a single summer (they managed to complete 18), but because that number represents a fraction of Vail's hundreds of lifts across its 37 North American resorts. Vail Mountain alone houses 18 high-speed chairlifts and two gondolas. Park City owns 16 detachables. Whistler has six or nine gondolas – depending on how you count them – and 13 high-speed chairs. You can keep counting through Heavenly, Breckenridge, Keystone – how do you even maintain such a sprawling network, let alone continue to upgrade it?Northstar managed to snag a piece of Vail's largess, securing a four-to-six replacement for the Comstock Express. It was just the third major lift upgrade since Vail bought the joint in 2010, following the 2011 addition of the Promised Land Express quad and the 2015 replacement of the Big Springs Gondola. So why Comstock? And what's next for a ski area with a trio of high-speed quads (Arrow, Backside, Vista), that are approaching that 30-year expiration date for first-generation detachable lifts?Tahoe is also one of several U.S. ski regions coping with a generational crisis of untenable congestion and cost. The culprits, in no particular order, are an over-reliance on individual automobiles as the primary mechanism of ski resort access, megapasses that enable and empower more frequent skiing, a Covid-driven exodus from cities, a permanent shift to remote work, short-term rentals choking local housing stock, and reflexive opposition to any development of any kind by an array of NIMBYs and leaf defenders.Northstar, an enormous and easy-to-access megaresort owned by the world's largest ski area operator and seated in America's most populous state, sits in the bullseye of several of these megatrends. The resort is responding with a big toolbox, tiering access across a variety of Epic Passes, implementing a partial paid parking plan, and continuing a masterplan that would increase on-mountain beds and decrease automobile congestion. Like every ski area, it's a work in progress, never quite finished and never quite perfect, but tiptoeing maybe a little closer to it every year.What I got wrongAbout the relative size of NorthstarI noted in Ohran's podcast intro that Northstar was America's ninth largest ski area. That's technically still true, but once Steamboat officially opens its Mahogany Ridge expansion this winter, the Alterra-owned resort will shoot up to the number eight spot, kicking Northstar down to number 10. Looking a few years down the road, Deer Valley is set to demote Northstar to number 11, once Mt. Fancypants completes its 3,700-acre expansion (boosting the mountain to 5,726 acres), and takes the fourth-place spot between Big Sky and Vail Mountain.About the coming ski seasonI noted that Northstar was opening, “probably around Thanksgiving.” The resort's scheduled opening date is Nov. 17.About Powdr's Tahoe complexI asked Ohran about her experience running Powdr's “three ski areas” in Tahoe, before correcting that to “two ski areas.” The confusion stemmed from the three distinct brands that Powdr operates in Tahoe: the Soda Springs ski area, the Boreal ski area, and the Woodward terrain park. While these are distinct brands, Woodward's winter facilities are part of Boreal ski area:Why you should ski NorthstarThe Brobots won't do much to surprise or interest you. That's why they're the Brobots. Rote takes, recited like multiplication tables, lacking nuance or context, designed to pledge allegiance to Brobot Nation. The Brobots hate Vail and the Ikon Pass. They despise “corporate” skiing, without ever defining what that is. They rage against ski-town congestion and traffic, while reflexively opposing any solutions that would require change of any kind. They worship dive bars, weed, and beanie caps. They despise tourists, chairlift safety bars, slopeside condos, and paid parking of any kind. They are the Brobots.Lake Tah-Bro is a subspecies of Brobotus Americanus. Lake Tah-Bro wishes you weren't here, but since you are, he wants you to understand his commandments. One of which is this: “Flatstar” is not cool. Like you. Real-ass skiers ski Palisades (steep), Alpine (chill), or Kirkwood (wild). But OK, if you must, go see for yourself. Tah-Bro won't be joining you. He has to go buy a six-pack of craft beer to celebrate his six-month anniversary of moving here from Virginia, while tapping out a Tweet reminding everyone that he's a local.It must be an exhausting way to live, having to constantly remind everyone how ridiculously cool you are. But luckily for you, I don't care about being cool. I'm a dad with two kids. I drive a minivan. I drink Miller Lite and rarely drive past a Taco Bell. My musical tastes are straightforward and mainstream. I track my ski days on an app and take a lot of pictures. I am not 100 percent sure which brand of ski boots I own (I trusted the bootfitter). My primary Brobot trait is that I like to ski mostly off-piste. Otherwise you can call me Sir Basic Bro. Or don't. I won't see it anyway – I stopped reading social media comments a long time ago.Brah do you have a point here? Yes. My point is this: I am supremely qualified to tell you that Northstar is a great ski area. It is huge. It is interesting. It has more glades than you could manage if you spent all winter trying. It is threaded with an excellent high-speed lift network that, during the week, rarely has an over-abundance of skiers to actually ride it. You can cruise the wide-open or sail the empty trees. Park Brahs can park-out on the Vista Park Brah.But if you take my advice and lap the place for an afternoon and find that it's just too flat for your radness, simply ask Ski Patrol if you can borrow a pair of scissors. Then cut the sleeves off your jacket and all under-layers, and descend each run in an arms-up posture of supreme muscle-itude. Everyone will be aware of and in awe of your studliness, and know that you are only skiing Flatstar as a sort of joke, the mountain a prop to your impossibly cool lifestyle. Your Instapost followers will love it.Podcast NotesOn Tahoe's competitive landscapeTahoe hosts one of the densest clusters of ski areas in North America. Here are the 16 currently in operation:On Northstar's masterplan Northstar's 2017 masterplan outlines several potential expansions, each of which we discuss in the podcast:On the “My Epic” appOhran referenced Vail's new My Epic app, which I devoted a section to explaining in the article accompanying my recent Keystone podcast. The Epic Pass website notes that the app will be “launching in October.”On Northstar's original brand campaignI couldn't find any relics from Northstar's 1972 “Everything in the middle of nowhere” ad campaign. I did, however, find this 1978 trailmap noting that all-day adult lift tickets cost $13:That's $64.02 adjusted for inflation, in case you're wondering.The Sierra Sun ran a nice little history of Northstar last year, in honor of the resort's 50-year anniversary:On Dec. 22, 1972, Northstar-at-Tahoe began spinning its original five lifts, operating under the motto “Everything in the middle of nowhere.” The first lifts were given alphabetic names A, B, C, and D. A T-chair provided access to mid-mountain from the village. The cost for an adult to ski for the day in 1972 was $8, gear could be rented for $7.50, and a room for the night at the resort was $30. …The 1980s brought further growth to the resort and in 1988 the first snowboarders took their turns at the resort. That year, George N. Gillett Jr., president of Colorado's Vail Associates purchased Northstar-at-Tahoe. By 1992, Gillett had run into financial troubles and lost Vail Associates. Gillett managed to come away with enough resources to form Booth Creek Ski Holdings, Inc. Gillett's new company focused on real estate development and creating multi-season resorts. In 1996, the company acquired Northstar-at-Tahoe, Sierra-at-Tahoe, and Bear Mountain for $127 million, and began developing the Big Springs area at Northstar. …The new millennium brought with it a joint venture between Booth Creek Ski Holdings and East West Partners with the aim to complete the resort's real estate and mountain development plan. The first phase of the project opened in 2004 and included the foundation for the village along with the completion of Iron Horse North, Iron Horse South, and the Great Bear Lodge buildings. The ice rink and surrounding commercial space were completed during this time. Skiers and riders were also treated to new terrain with the installation of Lookout Lift.From 2005 through 2008 work continued at the base of the mountain to complete the gondola building along with the Catamount and Big Horn buildings in the village. Collaboration between East West Partners and Hyatt Corp also began at this time, leading to the Northstar Lodge Hyatt project. The first building was started in May 2007 and completed in December 2008. Along with these came the Village Swim & Fitness center and the Highlands Gondola from the Northstar Lodge to The Ritz-Carlton Hotel and neighboring building.In 2010, Vail Resorts, Inc., entered the fray and purchased Northstar-at-Tahoe from Booth Creek for $63 million, and later renamed it Northstar California Resort.On Matt JonesOhran mentions Kirkwood GM Matt Jones once or twice during the pod, which we recorded on Oct. 2. This past Tuesday, Oct. 10, Alterra announced that they had hired Jones as the new president and chief operating officer of Stratton, Vermont.On that deep deep winterWhen I was skiing around Northstar in March, I snagged a bunch of hey-where'd-the-world-go shots of stuff buried in snow:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 85/100 in 2023, and number 471 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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You can also subscribe for free below:WhoMike Solimano, President and General Manager of Killington and Pico Mountains, VermontRecorded onSept. 5, 2023About KillingtonClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Powdr CorpLocated in: Killington, VermontYear founded: 1958Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with PicoReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passesClosest neighboring ski areas: Pico (:12), Saskadena Six (:39), Okemo (:40), Twin Farms (:42), Quechee (:44), Ascutney (:55), Storrs (:59), Harrington Hill (:59), Magic (1:00), Whaleback (1:02), Sugarbush (1:04), Bromley (1:04), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:08), Arrowhead (1:10), Mad River Glen (1:11)Base elevation: 1,156 feet at Skyeship BaseSummit elevation: 4,241 feet at Killington PeakVertical drop: 3,085 feetSkiable Acres: 1,509Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 155 (43% advanced/expert, 40% intermediate, 17% beginner)Lift count: 20 (2 gondolas, 1 six-pack, 5 high-speed quads, 5 fixed-grip quads, 2 triples, 1 double, 1 platter, 3 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Killington's lift fleet)About PicoClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Powdr CorpLocated in: Mendon, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with KillingtonReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passes; four days Killington access included on Pico K.A. PassClosest neighboring ski areas: Killington (:12), Saskadena Six (:38), Okemo (:38), Twin Farms (:38), Quechee (:42), Ascutney (:53), Storrs (:57), Harrington Hill (:55), Magic (:58), Whaleback (1:00), Sugarbush (1:01), Bromley (1:00), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:01), Mad River Glen (1:07), Arrowhead (1:09)Base elevation: 2,000 feetSummit elevation: 3,967 feetVertical drop: 1,967 feetSkiable Acres: 468Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 58 (36% advanced/expert, 46% intermediate, 18% beginner)Lift count: 7 (2 high-speed quads, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 1 carpet - view Lift Blog's inventory of Pico's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himImagine if the statistical bureaus of nations operated like ski areas - the countries just threw around numbers with no basis in measurable reality. China could say it was bigger than Russia, U.S. America could claim more territory than Canada, and North Korea could say it was bigger than all of them combined (hell, it probably does).This is the world one steps into when trying to ascertain the size of New England ski areas. Mt. Abram claims 450 acres. Middlebury Snow Bowl brags on “600-plus acres of woods and glades,” which would make it larger than Sugarbush, the Alterra-owned mega-resort that undersells itself with a 581-acre tally. Here's what the aliens would see if they were to match our internet boasts up to measurable reality:Did Middlebury Snowbowl acquire the air rights over its mountain? Is Mt. Abram built like Istanbul, with several ancient ski areas buried beneath the modern foundation, giving us a vast ski labyrinth to explore?This strategy probably worked better when most skiers' mode of resort comparison was “scanning a bunch of brochures at a rest area.” It's harder to maintain when every human carries a device equipped with a map of planet earth in their pocket at all times. But ski areas keep fibbing anyway.Which is probably why, several years ago, Killington started measuring itself like a Western ski area: draw a border around the property – that's your skiable terrain. Oh, and we'll no longer yell at you for skiing in the woods, which is technically “terrain” even if the underbrush is too thick for anything larger than a chipmunk to navigate.Some of you would like me to challenge statistical inconsistency across the ski industry as a main feature of this newsletter. But I prefer to just make fun of it. If Mt. Abram wants to be the Baghdad Bob of New England skiing, well, what else are you going to do for attention when you're across the street from Sunday River, whose annual lift-upgrade budget exceeds the GDP of Australia?But until the North Conway Treaty of 2038, at which the ski areas of North America will collectively agree upon a universal statistical standard based upon actual measurements, I'm just going to take their word for it (sort of). Here's a list of New England ski areas from largest to smallest, by skiable acreage, according to the ski resort's own claims (I excluded Middlebury Snowbowl and Mt. Abram, which more accurately measure out at 110 and 170 acres, respectively):Anyone who's spent any amount of time skiing New England knows that something feels off with this list. Sugarbush, Stowe, and Jay – three of the dozen or so New England ski areas with reliable glades – ski as big as anything in the East. All three feel substantively larger than Stratton or Mount Snow. And neither Bolton Valley nor Black Mountain of Maine ski on the scale of Cannon or Waterville Valley.But no one is disputing that top line. Killington is the largest ski area in New England. You can quibble about the vertical drop – the gut of Killington is the 1,650-ish-foot K-1 face. To scoop up the full 3,000-plus feet requires a rarely-skied meander down to the Skyeship Base at US 4. Mt. Ellen at Sugarbush (2,600 vertical feet), Madonna at Smuggs (2,150), FourRunner at Stowe (2,046), the single chair at Mad River Glen (1,972 feet), and Sugarloaf's spectacular 2,820-foot face all deliver more sustained steep skiing than The Beast.But there's nothing else in the East on Killington's scale, the massive overlapping network of six peaks rolling in all directions from the frantic hub. It's one of the few ski areas, East or West, where I ever truly feel lost. There's something brilliantly scattershot about it, something feral and boundless and enigmatic, as though 16 small ski areas had been stapled together by someone who's never skied. There are insane traverses and endless flats, riotously steep trees and bumps all over, long groomers that you think lead back to the same lift you just exited, but instead seem to deposit you in New Hampshire. There are trails on the far fringe that feel abandoned on even the busiest days, where you suspect without being able to prove it that you've been transported to an alternate dimension of groomed forever-down, or at least back to a time before the Ikon Pass gave every skier on the eastern seaboard an annual allotment of Killington lift tickets.It all works somehow. This great machine, howling like an armor-plated Mad Max rig, a cobbled-together war machine screaming across the winter plains. It feels like it should fall apart, disintegrate by the combined forces of speed and volume. But it carries on, the growling, supercharged id of New England winter, The Beast a gloss well-earned.What we talked aboutWhat's behind Killington's run of June closings; building the Superstar Glacier; why “The Beast” returned; how Killington pulled off the 2022 World Cup with a wildly warm November; what happened to October openings; early- versus late-season energy; whether social media makes the spring skiing party seem bigger than it is; Pico's massive, multi-year snowmaking evolution; “Pico's probably not worth what one detachable lift costs on its own” – the hard math of lift upgrades; Powdr Corp's long-term commitment to Pico; Pico's private mid-week mountain rentals; the new K-1 lodge; falling in love with skiing on a Magic Mountain powder day; when you start as chief financial officer and the parent company informs you that they may not be able to make payroll the following month; Killington's rowdy transition from American Skiing Company to Powdr Corp to present-day calm; why Powdr Corp had such a tough time adapting to New England, and how the company finally did; online absurdities; the evolution of Powdr Corp; a Killington base village, on the way at last; why the village took so long to permit; “to be a successful village, it can't just be a bunch of condos”; putting pedestrians first; what the village will mean for parking at Ramshead, Snowshed, Vale, and K-1; employee housing; how the village will connect to the resort's lift system; whether we could see a lift from the village up to K-1; why Killington hasn't upgraded Snowshed yet; redesigning Killington Road; fixing Killington's water-quality issues; considering mass transit along Killington Road; priorities for lift upgrades at both ski areas; where Killington could install another six-pack; whether future sixers would have bubbles or D-line tech; why eight-pack lifts are unlikely; the potential for upgrades for the Bear Mountain quad and Snowden triple; what could eventually replace Outpost at Pico; current thinking around the Killington-Pico Interconnect; Fast Tracks two years in; Fast Tracks season passes; the Beast 365 and Ikon Base Pass add-on; and whether Beast 365 passholders are complaining about the dilution of the Ikon Base Pass (spoiler alert: they are).Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewStorm Skiing Podcast #1: Killington & Pico President & General Manager Mike Solimano, was not the first episode I ever recorded, but it was the first one I released. Because, as I wrote at the time, “if you're going to start something like a podcast about Northeast skiing, you really ought to lead off with the most punch-you-in-your-face prominent part of Northeast skiing.” Starting this series with the head of the largest and baddest ski resort in New England injected The Storm with an instant patina of legitimacy, a forked road into journalism from the speculating, self-assured masses endlessly debating ski areas on social media.There are hazards, of course, to going first, especially for a rapidly evolving brand like The Storm. A lot has changed in four years. The podcast sounds better. The Storm's scope has expanded nationwide, embedding each subject in a national, rather than a regional, context. The article accompanying each episode is far richer, with maps and stats and charts that the reader once had to source on their own. And I hope – I'll let the listener decide – that I've improved as an interviewer and as a host.It was time to reset Killington and Pico. But with purpose. My mission, at The Storm's outset four years ago, was simply to make connections with ski area leaders. The podcast episodes were more general-information sessions than conversations tuned to the moment. But almost every podcast on the current schedule is pegged to some tangible development: Keystone (scheduled for the week of Sept. 11), is opening the Bergman Bowl expansion after a one-year delay; Snowbird (Sept. 18), is a big player in the controversial Little Cottonwood Canyon gondola project; Attitash (Nov. 6), is at long last replacing the Summit Triple with a high-speed quad. Even Great Bear, South Dakota – scheduled for the week of Sept. 25 – is planning a new lift and expansion.Killington just announced what is potentially the most transformative project in New England skiing for at least a generation: the approval to build, at long last, a (hopefully pedestrian) base village in the vast basin between Snowshed and Ramshead, a space currently occupied by parking lots sizeable enough to house the population of Ecuador. The East does not currently have anything like this – at least not at the foot of a ski area, where such things ought to be. But the region desperately needs this sort of human-scaled infrastructure.I live in New York City, which means I am surrounded by acquaintances who have the means and desire to ski, but who do not necessarily ski that often. They will frequently petition me for recommendations that sound something like: where can I take my family/group of friends/brunch club skiing for a long weekend that is within driving distance of the city, has somewhere to stay on the mountain, and has food/drinking options within a short walk? And my answer to them is: there is nothing like that here. Go to Park City/Breckenridge/Aspen/somewhere else out West. New England is so preoccupied with preserving their natural environment that most meaningful development is done a several-mile drive from the major ski hills, which of course compromises the natural environment with sprawl, excessive traffic, and parking lots the size of the Mendenhall Glacier.There are some minor exceptions to this: small villages at Stratton and Stowe. Ample slopeside accommodations at Smugglers' Notch and Okemo. But none of these give the skier that sense of place they'll find in Steamboat or Crested Butte or even Vail Village, with its pedestrian walkways paved over what had been wilderness until the 1960s. But who says a new village is a “fake” village, as they're so often framed? A place for people to gather is a place for people to gather, and if we could build such places 2,000 years ago, we can build them today.New England deserves this. Because great ski areas are better when the community doesn't end at the bottom of the lift queue. Because once we build one, others will follow. Because it's a fairly stupid fact that the region of the United States most known for its quaint small towns is without a single quaint ski town (meaning, one that backs up to the ski resort). Because Built America has sprawled out enough, and its time to back up and fill in all the blank space with something better. Because there is no better way for a state preoccupied with preserving its natural environment to build than in dense clusters of life and activity. And because it would be fabulous and because it would work and because I'm tired of telling New Yorkers to fly to Aspen when Killington ought to be able to give them everything they need.Questions I wish I'd askedI wanted to talk a bit about the Woodward park that Powdr has been dropping at Killington each of the past several winters. I also had a few questions about passes: the Pico K.A.'s odd name, the creeping price of the Killington spring pass, whether the Mountain Collective was in play for Killington.What I got wrongAbout the size of PicoI said Pico was about “the size of Cannon or the size of Waterville Valley.” This is kind of true but was also an on-the-fly guess. As is clear from the skiable acreage discussion above, gauging the size of New England ski areas is a little bit of a party game. I think Pico and Waterville are about the same size, but Pico, mimicking Killington's border-to-border measurement philosophy, claims 468 acres. Waterville, which, according to general manager Tim Smith, only counts trail acreage, sits at 265 acres. But both hit right around 2,000 feet of vert. Cannon is a bit higher, at 2,180. Still, I think it was a fair comparison. Here are New England's tallest ski areas, organized by vertical drop:About resumesI said in the intro that Solimano had joined Killington in 2002. He actually started in December 2001, as he clarifies in the interview.About the Ikon Base PassWhen discussing the erosion of the Ikon Base Pass over time, I said that “Alterra had taken mountains off” the pass. That wasn't exactly right or fair. Former Alterra CEO Rusty Gregory told me on the podcast last year that Alterra resisted creating the Plus tier for Ikon Base. But Jackson Hole and Aspen, facing locals' revolts over the pass' impact, insisted on doing something. The Ikon Base Plus, then, was a compromise. Other ski areas have followed since the Base Plus debuted in 2020: Alta and Deer Valley (the latter of which Alterra does own) in 2022, and Taos in 2023. Snowbasin and Sun Valley opted for Base Plus over Base when they joined the coalition in 2022.Still, however we got here, the fact is this: the Ikon Base Pass excludes seven of the pass' most attractive destinations. Unfortunately, passholders at partner resorts that offer an Ikon Base Pass with their top-tier season passes (Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Loon, Killington, Windham, Aspen, Big Sky, Taos [sold out], Alta, Snowbasin, Snowbird, Brighton, Jackson Hole [sold out], Sun Valley, Mt. Bachelor, Boyne Mountain), are not able to upgrade to an Ikon Base Plus or full Ikon Pass. Several leaders of the above-mentioned mountains have confirmed to The Storm that their passholders find this annoying, like getting a year of free Domino's but being told that you can only order salad and sandwiches. No pizza for you. Alta is the pizza on the Ikon Pass. Jackson Hole is pizza. Aspen is pizza. Blue Mountain is a Chicken Ceasar salad. It's nice. It tastes fine. But really everyone wants the pizza.Here's that chart again tracking Ikon Pass partners by tier over time:Why you should ski Killington and PicoOne reason to ski Killington is easy: often, it's your only option. The mountain closed June 1 this year, more than a month after every other resort in the region other than Jay and Sugarbush, which both ran to May 7. On the other end, The Beast has somewhat ceded its rush to open. After six October openings in the eight seasons beginning in 2011, Killington hasn't spun the lifts before Halloween since 2018 (warm falls and Covid haven't helped). But they're rarely beaten to go-live in New England, and seasons that push or exceed 200 days make sure the mountain's expensive season pass is worth it.Pico is funny. If it were anywhere else other than exactly next door to the largest ski area in New England, Pico might be a major ski area. Its 468 acres would make it the largest ski area in New Hampshire. A 2,000-foot vertical drop is impressive anywhere. The mountain has two high-speed lifts. And, by the way, knockout terrain. There is only one place in the Killington complex where you can run 2,000 vertical feet of steep terrain: Pico.The American norm is that skier visits move east-to-west. But I'll get an occasional email from a Rocky Mountain dweller who's visiting family out east, and they want to know where to ski. There are 100 ski areas in New England – more than in Colorado (34), California (30), Utah (18), and Montana (16) combined. How do you sort through all that? If you want my recommendations of what to do with a week, I'd tell you to start with Killington, then move north through Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Stowe, Smugglers' Notch, and Jay Peak. Then cross the top of New England to Sugarloaf. That's the best of what we've got. But The Beast, the king of them all, is Killington.Podcast NotesMiscellany on items discussed in the podcast:On Killington's historic opening and closing datesKillington has done a nice job documenting these on its website:On the history of the Women's World Cup at KillingtonSince 2016, Killington has acted as the early-season U.S. stop on the Women's World Cup, drawing enormous, raucous crowds. While I don't cover ski racing or competition, I acknowledge the importance of this event to Killington, as an ancillary business, as a celebration of the sport, as a cultural token, and as a showcase of the resort's singular snowmaking firepower. You can sign up for Killington's World Cup updates here.On North Ridge early-season skiingEarly-season skiing at Killington is a novel, inventive, highly orchestrated event. Typically, only three runs are open, and they are lodged on an area called North Ridge near the top of Killington Peak. Skiers park in the K-1 lot, ride the K-1 gondola over brown slopes to the summit, walk across a catwalk (and its many, many steps), and arrive in winter: typically the Rime, Reasons, and East Fall trails, snowy and frantic with fellow early-season lunatics. The concentration of very good skiers tends to be quite amazing, as the Park Brahs are Parking Out Brah – with whatever little knoll they can turn into a feature (plus, usually, a few built on Reason by Killington's parks crew). You lap North Ridge Quad for as long as you can tolerate, but you can't ski back down – there's no snow below East Fall. So you have to hike back up the catwalk, back to K-1, and ride the gondy back down to the parking lot. Here's a diagram:It's less about the skiing, frankly, than about being a part of something unique and joyful. The skiing, however, is sometimes quite good, especially if it's cold enough to leave the snowguns running, refreshing the surface all day long.On Pico's lift fleetPico has one of the oldest lift fleets in New England – the last new lift install was 35 years ago. Strangely, the mountain also has two high-speed quads, both the (historically) problematic Yan detachables (read more on that in the Podcast Notes section here). But, for reasons Solimano details in the podcast, new lifts are unlikely anytime soon. Pico's current state, per Lift Blog:On Powdr Corp's portfolioKillington is one of 10 North American ski areas owned by Park City-based Powdr Corp:On the lawsuit around lifetime season passesWhen Powdr Corp purchased Killington in 2007, the company inherited the largest ski area in New England – and a gigantic anchor in the form of 1,243 “lifetime” season passes distributed by a former owner. Powdr said, “Yeah we're not doing that,” the passholders sued, and Powdr ultimately won. A 2010 synopsis from Legal Blog Watch:Twenty years ago, Killington, Vt., resident Martin Post and his wife, Jill, paid about $3,500 each for lifetime ski passes at Killington Resort. The Posts are happily still alive but, as of May 17, 2010, their passes are not.The Times Argus reports that in May, U.S. Judge Christina Reiss found that the resort's current owners, SP Land Co. and Powdr Corp., which purchased Killington Resort in 2007, were under no legal obligation to honor the passes that were sold in the early years of the ski area as an incentive to attract investors.The class action litigation before Judge Reiss involved 1,243 pass holders -- 342 yearly transferable passes and 901 passes that could be transferred a single time. The plaintiffs alleged that under the wording of the investor passes, the holder is entitled "to the free use of all ski lifts operated by (Sherburne) Killington Ltd. at (Killington Basin) Killington Ski Area so long as the corporation shall operate in that area under an agreement with the state of Vermont." Plaintiffs claimed that the reference to "the corporation" meant any subsequent operator of the ski area, including the new owners, but the court disagreed.Judge Reiss granted the defendants' motion for summary judgment, finding that "the only reasonable interpretation of that language is that it requires Killington Ltd. to provide the designated passholder free use of all ski lifts operated by Killington Ltd. at the Killington Ski Area so long as it operates in that area ... "The term corporation, she wrote, "clearly refers to the named corporations, Sherburne and Killington Ltd." and "reveals no intention to bind Killington Ltd's successors ... To the contrary, Killington Ltd.'s obligations under the passes clearly terminate with its cessation of operations in the area."The plaintiffs have appealed Reiss' decision to the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.I'm assuming the plaintiffs lost the appeal, but I can't find any record of it.On New England's 100 ski areasHere's the inventory - collect them all! (let me know if you have):The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 74/100 in 2023, and number 460 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on August 11. It dropped for free subscribers on August 14. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe for free below:WhoBrian Suhadolc, General Manager of Mount Snow, VermontRecorded onJuly 17, 2023About Mount SnowClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Vail ResortsLocated in: Dover, VermontYear founded: 1954Pass affiliations:* Epic Pass and Epic Local Pass: Unlimited access* Epic Northeast Value Pass: Unlimited access with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Midweek Pass: Unlimited access with weekend and holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Hermitage Club (9 minutes), Stratton (23 minutes), Bromley (36 minutes), Magic Mountain (39 minutes)Base elevation: 1,900 feetSummit elevation: 3,600 feetVertical drop: 1,700 feetSkiable Acres: 601Average annual snowfall: 150 inchesTrail count: 80 (15% advanced/expert, 70% intermediate, 15% beginner)Lift count: 19 (2 six-packs, 4 high-speed quads, 5 triples, 2 doubles, 1 ropetow, 5 magic carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Mount Snow's lift fleet)Why I interviewed himThis is my second podcast focused on Mount Snow. The first episode featured then-GM Tracy Bartels, in November 2020. Our focus then was Covid: as in, what the hell were we going to do about it? The ski industry had spent eight months from the March shutdowns preparing for a masked world of closed ski bars and social distancing. Was this actually going to work?It did, of course. Sort of. But that podcast from 2020 has little to do with the Mount Snow of 2023, which has evolved substantially in just three years. It was time for an update.I'm also owning the fact that I overcorrected when I took The Storm national in 2021. In the pod's first two years, I'd interviewed the heads of most of New England's largest ski areas. Check, check, check. Done. I needed to establish this thing in the Rockies, the Cascades, the Sierras, the Wasatch. And I did. But a lot of my New England listeners felt snubbed. I'd built this thing on their attention and enthusiasm, and now I was pivoting away.It's time to pivot back a bit. The lift-served ski world is changing fast, especially among those giants with access to capital and ambition. So I've scheduled upcoming podcast conversations with the leaders of Killington and Sunday River, both of which I've profiled in the past. I'll pursue more such follow-ups in the future, in all regions – and not just with mega-resorts, as the recent second installment with the owners of Plattekill demonstrated. The long-term goal is to alternate podcasts so that every other episode focuses on the West, with the East/Midwest/Mid-Atlantic occupying the alternate slots.But setting aside my own admin, I'm focusing on Mount Snow because it's an incredibly important mountain. I'll reset what I wrote in this same section three years ago:Because Mount Snow is where big-time Northeast skiing begins. As the southern-most major Vermont ski area, it is a skier's gateway to mountains that are big enough to get lost on. From its strategic position in the orbit of the East Coast megalopolis, successive owners have gradually built something uniquely suited to the frenetic swarms of wildly varied skiers who bullseye the place each winter: Mount Snow has one of the most outstanding terrain parks in America and one of the best snowmaking systems in the world. The families who swarm here find absolutely unintimidating terrain, blue as the sky and groomed smoother than I-91. It's a perfect family mountain and a perfect bus skier's mountain and a perfect first step from Mount Local to something that shows you how big skiing can be. It was the crown jewel of the Peak Resort's empire, and it's one of the most important pieces to Vail's ever-expanding Epic jigsaw puzzle. I wouldn't call it a special mountain – the terrain is mild and not terribly interesting, and the volume and quality of natural snowfall is best described as adequate. But it is a vital mountain, as the southern-most anchor of Vermont's teeming ski scene, as an accessible ski experience for weekending cityfolk, as an aspirational destination for people stepping more fully into skiing culture, and as a testament to the power of the imagination to transform a big vertical drop and cold skies into a vital and vibrant node of the regional ski scene.What we talked aboutSurveying damage from the July rainstorm; the Epic Promise Foundation; Mount Snow's four-foot March snowstorm; the frantic hilarity of New England powder days; the difference between east and west coast pow; breaking down Mount Snow's lift upgrades at Sundance, Sunbrook, and Heavy Metal; how the Sundance six-pack “changed the dynamic of the ski resort”; why Sundance – unlike the mega-popular Bluebird Express – does not have bubbles; how the resort manages 18 high-speed out-of-base seats; the four most-utilized lifts at Mount Snow; how Mount Snow built the Sunbrook lift in a roadless section of mountain; what it took to convert the Heavy Metal lift from a double to a triple; why Vail auctioned the individual chairs from the old Sunbrook rather than selling the lift – a 1990 CTEC quad – to a smaller ski area; talking through long-term upgrades to Nitro; why the resort doesn't add more chairs to the current Nitro to boost its capacity from 2,100 skiers per hour to 2,400; the status of paid parking two years in; impressions of New England ski culture; the difference between running a mountain in the east and in the west; what happens when Vail surprise-buys your resort; connecting Park City to The Canyons via gondola – “the magnitude of it was not lost on me”; the mining facilities still scattered across Park City; career opportunity within Vail Resorts; Mount Snow's monster snowmaking system; why Mount Snow has become Vail's late-season New England operator, rather than Wildcat; why Carinthia is the mountain's late-operating pod; whether we could ever see another October opening at Mount Snow; potential upgrades for the North Face lifts; assessing the Beartrap double; contemplating the future of Grand Summit; whether we could ever see a detach lift on beginner terrain at Mount Snow; whether the Epic Local Pass is the correct unlimited-access pass for Mount Snow; the popularity of Northeast-specific Epic Passes; the Epic Day Pass; and Vail Resorts' day-ticket limits for the 2022-23 ski season.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewEver since Peak Resorts built the Bluebird Express six-pack in 2011, Mount Snow has had a problem: the lift, with its blue bubbles and ultra-smooth ride, was so flashy and appealing that nobody wanted to ride any other lift on the front side of the mountain. Even the Grand Summit high-speed quad, which runs parallel to Bluebird and serves all the same terrain, had trouble getting attention. This was great for skiers who actively work the mountain, but a real drag for Mount Snow's rap as the most-crowded Southern Vermont ski area.Enter: Vail Resorts' Epic Lift Upgrades of 2022. Mount Snow was the beneficiary of two of the 21 planned lifts (18 of which Vail finished on schedule*): the Sundance and Tumbleweed triples made way for a new six-pack, while the backside Sunbrook lift got a boost from a fixed-grip quad to a detach. Meanwhile, the mountain converted the Heavy Metal double into a triple chair, adding capacity to the popular Carinthia terrain park.Sundance and Sunbrook had one job: give people a reason to ski something besides Bluebird. As far as replacement lifts go, they seemed brilliant. But did the plan work to unknot Mount Snow's gnarliest crowd points?That was one topic Suhadolc and I discussed. Another: was Vail able to recover from its arguably oversold 2021-22 ski season by implementing day-ticket limits and settling into paid-parking plans? And how were those paid parking plans going? And should Mount Snow really be unlimited on the Epic Local Pass?Vail Resorts is entering its fifth winter season operating Mount Snow. With the Peak Resorts transition fully digested and Covid's hassles a memory, the company has no choice but to fully own every piece of the experience. With its size and proximity to New York City, Mount Snow will always be somewhat hectic. New Englanders can tolerate that. Chaos, however, does not belong in this land of picket-fence order. And for a moment post-Covid, Mount Snow seemed to be tilting toward chaos.But no one can say that Vail has not brought big change to the mountain over the past several seasons. Despite daily lift tickets that topped out at $154 this past winter, Mount Snow has never been more affordable to the masses. Unlimited access is just $689 on the Epic Local Pass; subtract holidays with the $567 Northeast Value Pass; minus weekends with the $425 Northeast Midweek Pass. With prices that low at a mountain that big that's as easy to access as Mount Snow is, things could go sideways pretty quick. The new lifts, the parking plans, the lift-ticket limits – all of it is calculated to prevent that from happening.Ski areas are a little bit like novels. They're never really finished. But unlike our great works of literature, we get to edit ski areas after they're published. The version of Mount Snow that we ski today is probably not the best and final version of the hill, but it may also be the best it's ever been,.*Two lifts scheduled to rise in Park City were rerouted to Whistler after spiteful locals revolted; Keystone's Bergman sixer had to wait a year after a construction-road misfire tore up some sensitive high-altitude terrain.What I got wrong* I said that the new Sunbrook high-speed quad clocked a ride time around four minutes. The actual time is closer to six minutes, according to Suhadolc.* I asked Brian why Vail didn't try to re-use the Sunbrook lift – a 1990 CTEC quad that likely had lots of life left on it – at a “smaller ski area.” He explained that Vail does occasionally move a lift within its portfolio. What I had meant to ask, however, was why didn't Mount Snow didn't attempt to sell the lift on the open market to a smaller independent ski area. It's great that Mount Snow sold the chairs and flipped the money to the Epic Promise Foundation, which assists their employees in times of outstanding need, such as the floods that just smashed Okemo. But the company could likely have made more for Epic Promise by selling the entire lift to an independent ski area, many of which are desperate for a modern quad in good working condition.* I said that Vail Resorts purchased Park City Mountain Resort “in 2014 or 2015.” The company bought the resort in 2014, a year after it bought Canyons (which is now part of Park City).* I said the Outpost lift turned 60 this year. Lift Blog, my go-to source for pretty much all things lifts, lists the lift as a 1963 Yan triple. Brian said that it is a 1988 CTEC triple. New England Ski History agrees with Brian. This is not a crack on Lift Blog, which is an excellent resource, so much as on me for not double-checking my references - in fact, I think Tracy Bartels corrected me on the exact same factoid three years ago.* I said that the Northeast Midweek Epic Pass was “less than $400.” This is incorrect. The pass currently costs $425. The early-bird price for the 2023-24 ski season was $416.* When I was running through the various resorts that the Northeast-specific Epic Passes accessed, I left out Mt. Brighton, Michigan.* I noted that Mount Snow had opened in October “once and maybe twice” under Peak Resorts. The only record I can find of Mount Snow opening that early was on Oct. 27, 2018.Why you should ski Mount SnowMount Snow has two big, obvious constituencies: Park Brah and Family Bro.The Carinthia peak is a crucial piece of Peak Resorts' legacy, as important as the Bluebird Express or the tens of millions the company pumped into snowmaking upgrades. Once a separate ski area, the peak is isolated from the mountain proper (though connected both ways by green trails), a thousand vertical feet of straight hits served by a high-speed quad and a triple chair. Park Brahs can park out, Brah. Along with Seven Brothers at Loon, it may be the best terrain park in the eastern United States.Family Bro loves Mount Snow partly because of Carinthia. Radbrah Junior can spend his afternoons there, posted up five wide with his boys, contemplating the hits below. The rest of the mountain, outside of the North Face, is interstate-width and solid blue. Families of almost any ability can manage this terrain. Mount Snow may be home to the best sustained intermediate terrain in New England. It's certainly among the most varied. And the mountain grooms just about every run just about every night, even if I wish they'd chill and let some bumps sprout here and there. Mount Snow's biggest drawback is a relative lack of glades for a mountain of its size. Skiers seeking trees should aim their GPS for Stratton or Magic, both of which have excellent, extensive glade networks.Epic Pass holders need to really pick their spots, though. Both Mount Snow and Okemo reach stampede-level crowding on weekends and holidays (I really don't think either should be unlimited on the Epic Local pass). Head for Stowe at these times if at all possible. Or snag an Indy Pass for peak-day getaways to Magic and Bolton Valley.Podcast NotesOn Heavenly and the Caldor FireWhen discussing Vail Resorts' unified disaster response to the recent Vermont floods, I referred to a similar conversation I'd had with Heavenly COO Tom Fortune in regards to the Caldor Fire that descended on Tahoe two years ago. You can listen to that conversation starting at 56:03 here.On Vermont's monster March snowstormWe discussed a monster snowstorm that descended on Vermont March 14 to 15. Huge snow totals included 45 inches at Bromley, 37 inches at Magic, and 46 inches at Mount Snow.On crushing pow at Mount SnowI discussed the chaos of a pow-day rope-drop at Mount Snow. Unfortunately the only access I have to it is this Twitter video. And since Substack won't embed Twitter videos anymore you'll have to click through to watch it:Too many “suns”I kept getting Mount Snow's “sun” lifts confused. It reminded me of a time I was skiing Snowbird, and a bunch of us were debating where to go next, and my buddy Mike, clearly confused, was just like, “There's too many Gads.” And my God he's right.On the Mount Snow “tram”Brian and I briefly discussed Mount Snow's old “tram,” which transported skiers from a base-area hotel up to the ski hill. It was really more of a whacky speedboat suspended from a cable, as you can see in the rendering on this 1965 trailmap. And yes, that's a double bubble chair beside it:On the Vail Resorts acquisition of Park CityBrian worked at Park City when Vail Resorts swiped it off Powdr Corp's lunch tray after the latter forgot to renew its lease. It was probably the most cartoonishly absurd business transaction in the history of lift-served skiing. Here's Park Record, examining the events as part of a decade-in-review series in late 2019:In some circles, though, the whispers had already started that something was afoot, and perhaps not right, at PCMR. Powdr Corp. for some unknown reason was negotiating a sale of its flagship resort, the most prevalent of the rumblings held. The CEO of Powdr Corp., John Cumming, late in 2011 had publicly stated there was not a deal involving PCMR under negotiation, telling Park City leaders during a Marsac Building appearance in December of that year the resort was “not for sale.” Later that evening, he told The Park Record the rumors “always amuse me.”The reality was far more astonishing and something that would define the decade in Park City in a similar fashion as the Olympics did in the previous 10-year span and the population boom did in the 1990s.The corporate infrastructure in the spring of 2011 had inadvertently failed to renew two leases on the land underlying most of the PCMR terrain, propelling the PCMR side and the landowner, a firm under the umbrella of Talisker Corp., into what were initially private negotiations and then into a dramatic lawsuit that unfolded in state court as the Park City community, the tourism industry and the North American ski industry watched in disbelief. As the decade ends, the turmoil that beset PCMR stands, in many ways, as the instigator of a changing Park City that has left so many Parkites uneasy about the city's future as a true community.The PCMR side launched the litigation in March of 2012, saying the future of the resort was at stake in the case. PCMR might be forced to close if it did not prevail, the president and general manager of the resort at the time said at the outset of the case. Talisker Land Holdings, LLC countered that the leases had expired, suddenly leaving doubts that Powdr Corp. would retain control of PCMR. …Colorado-based Vail Resorts, one of Powdr Corp.'s industry rivals, would enter the case on the Talisker Land Holdings, LLC side in May of 2013 with the aim of wresting the disputed land from Powdr Corp. and coupling it with nearby Canyons Resort, which was branded a Vail Resorts property as part of a long-term lease and operations agreement reached at the same time of the Vail Resorts entry into the case. Vail Resorts was already an industry behemoth with its namesake property in the Rockies and other mountain resorts across North America. The addition of Canyons Resort would advance the Vail Resorts portfolio in one of North America's key skiing states.It was a deft maneuver orchestrated by the chairman and CEO of Vail Resorts, Rob Katz. The agreement was pegged at upward of $300 million in long-term debt. As part of the deal, Vail Resorts also seized control of the litigation on behalf of Talisker Land Holdings, LLC. …The lawsuit itself unfolded with stunning developments followed by shocking ones over the course of two-plus years. In one stupefying moment, the Talisker Land Holdings, LLC attorneys discovered a crucial letter from the PCMR side regarding the leases had been backdated. In another such moment, PCMR outlined plans to essentially dismantle the resort infrastructure, possibly on an around-the-clock schedule, if it was ordered off the disputed land.What was transpiring in the courtroom was inconceivable to the community. How could Powdr Corp., even inadvertently, not renew the leases on the ground that made up most of the skiing terrain at PCMR, many asked. Why couldn't Powdr Corp. and Talisker Land Holdings, LLC just reach a new agreement, others wondered. And many became weary as businessmen and their attorneys took to the courtroom with the future of PCMR, critical to a broad swath of the local economy, at stake. The mood eventually shifted to exasperation as it appeared there was a chance PCMR would not open for a ski season if Talisker Land Holdings, LLC moved forward with an eviction against Powdr Corp. from the disputed terrain.The lawsuit wore on with the Talisker Land Holdings, LLC-Vail Resorts side winning a series of key rulings from the 3rd District Court judge presiding over the case. Judge Ryan Harris in the summer of 2014 signed a de facto eviction notice against PCMR and ordered the sides into mediation. Powdr Corp., realizing there was little more that could be accomplished as it attempted to maintain control of PCMR, negotiated a $182.5 million sale of the resort to Vail Resorts that September.Absolutely brutal and amazing and hard to believe, even nearly a decade later.On Canyons' name historyI mentioned the various names that the former Canyons ski area (now part of Park City), had gone by. Ski Utah provides the complete history:A neighboring ski area and sister resort to Park City Ski Area, called Park City West, opened in 1968. It was renamed ParkWest in 1975 after a change in ownership, then Wolf Mountain in 1995 for just two seasons. In 1997 it became The Canyons after an acquisition by the American Skiing Company before it was purchased by the Talisker Corporation. It was then sold to Vail Resorts in 2014 and subsequently merged with Park City Mountain. Today that base area is known as The Canyons Village at Park City.On Mount Snow's amazing snowmaking systemJust two years before selling its entire portfolio to Vail Resorts, Peak Resorts invested an amazing $30 million into Mount Snow's snowmaking system. The Brattleboro Reformer profiled the system shortly before go-live in 2017:West Lake is actually a sprawling system that begins about 4 miles from Mount Snow.It starts with a small, black, inflatable dam that stretches 18 feet across Cold Brook in Wilmington. From November through March, Mount Snow can inflate that dam as needed, drawing water into the newly constructed reservoir.A sluiceway alongside the dam ensures a flow of water in Cold Brook whether the dam is inflated or not."We were trying to be pretty low-impact, or as low-impact as possible," Storrs said.A nondescript-looking pump house near the dam can send water upward toward Mount Snow at a rate of 11,800 gallons per minute, "which is pretty much double what we used to have in terms of pumping capacity," Storrs said.On a recent morning, crews were putting on finishing touches and conducting tests at that pump house and two others situated farther up the mountain. There's a nearly 600-foot elevation gain between the inflatable dam and the last pump house on Mount Snow's slopes.On Wildcat and the long seasonWe discussed Wildcat's tradition as a late operator. Under Peak Resorts, the ski area would push the season into late April and, occasionally, May. Snowpak has documented Wildcat's closing dates over the past nine years – note the shift to earlier dates after Vail acquired the resort in 2019 (ignore the 2020 date, for obvious reasons):Vail shifted late-season New England operations to Mount Snow for reasons that Brian explains on the podcast. But it's a little incongruous stacked up against the region's other five late operators: Killington, Sugarbush, Jay Peak, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf, all of which are quite a ways north of Mount Snow:On Grand Summit and Yan detachablesI referred to the dreadful safety record of Yan detachable lifts. I broke this history of death and incompetence down in my recent podcast with China Peak GM Tim Cohee (scroll down to the Podcast Notes section).On Epic and Ikon access shifts since 2020I keep asking Vail Resorts' GMs if their ski areas are placed on the appropriate Epic Pass tier, mostly because it's amazing to me that an unlimited season pass to a mountain like Breckenridge or Mount Snow or Stevens Pass could be $676 – the early-bird price of 2023-24 Epic Local Passes. The Ikon Pass, as I noted on the podcast, has shifted its pass structure all over the place the past several seasons, tweaking access to Stratton, Sugarbush, Crystal Mountain, Alta, Aspen, Jackson Hole, Taos, Deer Valley, and Arapahoe Basin. Here's the chart I included in my recent podcast conversation with Alterra CEO Jared Smith to document those changes:I was astonished when Vail kept Stevens Pass on the Epic Local unlimited tier after 2021's well-documented crowding meltdowns. Things got so wild in Washington that Alterra pulled Crystal off the Ikon Pass' unlimited tier and jacked its season pass price up to $1,700 for the 2022-23 ski season. I still don't really understand this super-bargain access strategy, but Vail has made it clear that they're sticking with it.On the phenomenal deal that is the Epic Day PassWe discussed the Epic Day Pass. This thing really is an amazing deal:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 68/100 in 2023, and number 454 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Broadband projects are making headway – and hitting roadblocks. Plus, a compromise on Act 250 changes, the motel housing program set to end, possible impeachments in Franklin County, and Green Up Day at Jay Peak.

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on April 22. It dropped for free subscribers on April 25. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe for free below:WhoDoug Fish, president and founder of the Indy PassRecorded onThe majority of this conversation took place on April 3, 2023. Three days later, I left for a Montana ski trip, with the intent of releasing this either on the trip or when I returned. A week later, however, news broke that Indy would (at least temporarily) cease pass sales for 2023-24 products on April 11, making a small portion of our conversation irrelevant. Fish and I then recorded a new segment focused specifically on the decision to halt pass sales, on April 20, 2023. This section also includes a recap of the top 10 Indy Pass resorts for the 2022-23 ski season.About the Indy PassIndy Pass is the coolest thing going. If Indy were a person, everyone would gloss him “IP.” In the ‘80s, IP would have rolled in a Firebird with T-tops off and a flame-eagle emblazoned upon the hood. Or in a door-less Jeep with his boys gripping the rollbar, feathered-hair and sunglasses cool. Or rocking a skateboard, Walkman, and jean jacket, Michael J. Fox-style, transforming into a werewolf or traveling through time in a f*****g DeLorean. IP's not the most popular kid. In fact the cool kids, in their poloshirts and loafers, don't care much for the interloper at all. But we all see a bit of ourselves in the young rogue, middle finger aimed at the social-status gatekeepers and their lackies, flouting conventions of deference and sobriety, in possession of secret powers that will scare them once they know. IP is our hero because we are him. Or he's a supercharged superhero cartoon version of us. Or because he is whatever the hell he wants to be. IP rules!Or, if that doesn't work for you, how about this: IP is a season-long ski product that delivers up to 210 days of alpine skiing for four dollars more than the price of a one-day walk-up peak-day lift ticket at Vail or Beaver Creek. “Yeah but it's not Vail or Beaver Creek, Man – don't you get that?” I sure do, Biff. And I love both mountains, but give me the choice of one serving of caviar or a pizza every day all season long, and I gotta roll pizza, my friend (this is the 2022-23 roster; ignore the prices, ignore the blackouts. The robots are still fighting my efforts to update this chart for 2023-24. The only ski area that we know will change as of now is Snow Valley, which ran off with the Ikon Pass):More partners are inbound. Perhaps not as many as the 58 new ski areas (25 alpine, 19 cross-country, and 14 Allied), that signed onto Indy over the 2022 offseason. But I already have a partial list, and it will be at least a dozen. Perhaps many more as Indy looks to turboboost its XC roster.Too bad you already missed the best price: $279 for renewing passholders, $299 for waitlistees, $319 for the disorganized masses. Indy is currently off sale. It may come back in the fall. How will you know? Subscribe to their notifications, and they will send you eight to 12 emails and texts per day about it once the time comes. In the meantime, activate learning mode and enjoy this IP 101.Why I interviewed himDoug Fish is one of skiing's class acts. He's built a product that works. For skiers, for ski area operators, and for him and everyone working for him. This is not Liftopia 2.0, an online discount center where money falls into a blackhole. When you buy an Indy Pass, 15 percent of that money goes to Indy, the other 85 percent goes directly to the ski areas. You get a bargain, they get paid. Everyone wins.This whole thing could have been a scam. Or a crock. Or a fiasco. It could have disintegrated in a storm of partner and passholder anger over dysfunctional tech or missing paychecks or unregistered skier accounts. It could have been Fyre Ski – show up and there's nothing there.That was my fear the first time I cashed in my Indy Pass, at Caberfae, Michigan, on Friday, Nov. 29, 2019. I approached the ticket window and informed the clerk that I had an Indy Pass. She stared at me as though I'd just asked her which way to the kitten fur-hat section. Indy had just launched – I probably redeemed the first lift ticket in the ski area's history. But Pete Meyer, part-owner and GM, was standing right behind her, and he nodded and I nodded (this was the month after The Storm launched, and we were not yet acquainted), and I attached my metal wicket ticket to my jacket and went skiing.I've never had an issue cashing in an Indy Pass ticket since. Neither has anyone else that I've talked to. That's why the passholder base is exploding to the point that Indy has suspended sales. And that consistency – in the form of (mostly) hassle-free redemptions and steady paychecks, is why 104 out of 105 alpine partners are returning to the pass for the 2022-23 ski season. The only exception is Snow Valley, a two-season partner that surely would have returned had it not been devoured by Alterra Mountain Company and notched into the Ikon Pass ammo belt.For someone who has built something so transcendent, Fish remains modest and humble, at least in his public dealings and those with the media. He answers texts and emails. He takes hard questions. He owns his mistakes. He fulfills his promises. He gives everything he has to making this thing that he created work.The Indy Pass could have come from just about anywhere. It could have been a monetized version of the Powder Alliance or sprung from an alt-world Liftopia or formed from a regurgitated M.A.X. Pass or been some sort of quirky Wal-Mart version of a 1980s Christmas catalogue special G.I. Joe boxset – a cool niche product that is kind of hard to get but coveted by those whose existence is defined by their fringe knowledge.That IP came from Portland Doug, with his West Coast chill and self-aware need to preserve peace in Skidom – and, by extension, his own reputation – is a blessing to us all. This career marketing guy with a love of Hood pow and a knack for actualizing good ideas turned out to be exactly the shepherd indie skiing needed.Because of this remarkable thing Fish has created, he's been on the podcast four times. But I've never bothered asking about his story until now. Who is this person that spun the Indy Pass out of his imagination? Where did he come from, and why did he turn out to be the proper hero for the moment, not only creating this ark but steering it through the asteroid belts of Covid and evergrowing Epkon Pass sales? That's a big part of what I was after here, and Fish, as always, delivered.What we talked aboutWhy Fish sold the Indy Pass, how he's feeling about it, and what his role is now; “the only reason you start a business is to someday sell it”; the hardest part of walking away from Indy; the highs and lows of creating and managing the Indy Pass; Indy's mass adoption; Entabeni Systems, Indy's new owner; Indy's plan to massively expand its Nordic program; the first year of Indy XC; the most popular Indy XC resorts; how close Indy was to partnering with a tech company other than Entabeni, how Entabeni won the contract, and how that switch set Indy up for long-term business success; the first non-Western ski area to join Indy; what may or may not change in how the Indy Pass works; how often skiers actually use their Indy Passes; the surprising ownership alternative that Fish considered for Indy; the challenge of scaling the Indy Pass from 10 partners to 139 in four years; the impact of Indy's 40 percent  2021-22 price increase in retrospect; comparing what the Indy Pass is currently to what Fish thought the Indy Pass would be five years ago; whether we could see more density in already-dense Indy regions; are oversold Epic and Ikon passes benefitting Indy?; can Indy Pass last a decade or longer?; what could ruin the pass; Portland and the Mt. Hood ski scene, in the 1960s and now; “if you envy someone for what they do, then you should be doing that thing”; the advantage of starting something huge in your 60s; why Indy will switch to a physical pass for the 2023-24 ski season; how Indy has been able to largely retain its ski area partner roster and how important that is; how Jay Peak changed the pass forever; why Indy Pass signs one-year contracts with its partners, and whether that could change; oh Dear Lord what have I done I used the word “brand equity” without irony sorry; what would have happened had Indy lost Jay; why Indy kept Jay even though it is now part of a small ski area conglomerate; whether Jay owner Pacific Group Resorts could add any of its other five ski areas to Indy; why Indy may not announce any new partners until fall; what Indy Pass blackout tiers will look like for the 2023-24 ski season; how Indy Passes sold during the renewal, waitlist, and general public sales periods; why Indy limited and ultimately cut off pass sales for the 2023-24 ski season; the problem that blackouts can't solve; trying not to break the machine; how Indy will determine whether passes will go back on sale in the fall; new partners inbound; the top 10 Indy Pass partners by number of redemptions for the 2022-23 ski season; and the newest member of the Indy top 10 club.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewFish appears on the podcast as regularly as the snow melts.May 27, 2020 (Storm Skiing Podcast #16):April 27, 2021 (Storm Skiing Podcast # 45):May 9, 2022 (Storm Skiing Podcast #85):So every 40 podcasts or so. And here he is, back again exactly on cue, with podcast number 125. He would have been here no matter what, to discuss the ever-evolving, ever-fascinating Indy Pass. We could probably fill an hour every month of the year. But this year is different: in March, Fish sold Indy Pass to longtime tech partner Entabeni Systems. Wow. It seemed like IP just rolled into the party. And now all this. What gives, man? And why can't my boy Stiles scoop up an Indy just because he was busy picking out his new speakers at the boombox store for the past three weeks? And why are you mailing me a pass like it really is 1985? And do I still get my two days at Jay Peak? And when are you actually gonna add Tahoe man cause my cousin said it was sick out there? And since you're mailing a pass can you throw in some stickers Brah? So much to dig into.Why you should consider the Indy PassWell do you like skiing? Do you like selling your grandmother's heirloom candlesticks to pay for skiing (terrible example, actually, as candles and all related paraphernalia out to be recycled into a giant bouncy ball and shot into space to create a second moon). If you answered “yes” to the first question and “no” to the second, then the Indy Pass might be for you.One of the worst takes in skiing is that there's nothing on the Indy Pass “worth” traveling out West for. I would have to walk into a McDonald's and observe people eating their rancid food to witness a dumber idea. Indy's northern Rockies kingdom is stacked with launchpads larger than anything in New England: Mission Ridge, 2,250 vertical feet on 2,000 acres of skiable terrain; Mt. Hood Meadows, 2,777 feet/2,150 acres; Lost Trail, 1,800 feet/1,800 acres; Brundage, 1,921 feet/1,920 acres.That's just the start of the list. If you're an eastern or Midwestern skier who lives anywhere within the Indy orbit, this one super-cheapo discount product can give you an over-the-top amazing ski season. Buy an Indy Pass. Then hit all your locals. Then hit them all again. Then fly or drive of #VanLife your way west and loop the circuit. You get the western pow and the western vibe and the wide-open western glades without the western destination-town alienation and crowds.For years I was that guy who flew west and blew right past Loveland on my way to Copper or Keystone or Breck or Vail. But I'm not that guy anymore. I still love – will always love – the megaresorts of the American West. But last week, after an outstanding six days at Big Sky, I angled east toward Red Lodge, seated on the Montana side of Beartooth Pass. It was sprawling, gorgeous, glorious and empty. Admittedly, the conditions kind of sucked. But they'd sucked the day before at Big Sky too – a storm had cargoed in three inches after a big thaw. Dust-on-crust? More like dust-on-concrete. But that, according to everyone I spoke with at both ski areas, had been the first thaw all winter. This is Montana high country, oases rising out of the flats. The architecture of the mountains, the dreamily spaced trees, the steady fall lines, the broad ski-everything kingdom, promised something glorious another day.I found it the next day, at Great Divide, a little-known but riotous locals' bump off I-15 outside of Helena. A 1,500-foot vertical drop on 1,600 acres, split into three or four treed bowls served by open-basket Riblet doubles. Four or five inches from an overnight storm, mostly smooth base below. A half-dozen whooping runs. What felt like limitless lines. No liftlines at all. Even on a Saturday. Just skiing. Skiing skiing skiing. All day long in the Montana backwoods.Great Divide is not an Indy Pass partner, but it could (and should) be. Family-owned, rich in vibe and attitude, complex and glorious in its sprawling terrain, empty of pretense and a knick-knack souvenir veneer. If you want a cheeseburger, it's $8.50. If you want a T-shirt, you buy it in the rental shop, which is also the ticket desk, which also appears to be the main office. There's a good chance one of the four owners will be there working the register. I think this is what Fish means when he describes a mountain as “authentic.” Which seems to mean people running a ski area like it's a family sandwich shop, with everyone doing what they can at all times to make it work.This version of skiing is not for everyone. Some people really want that #ExperienceOfALifetime hashtag on their Instapost. But if you're a little bit over that, or just want a break from it once in a while, well, jump on that IP email list and plan to pick one up this fall.Podcast NotesOn retro IndyRetro Indy is a funny notion, as the website flipped live less than a goldfish's lifetime ago. But a look at this landing page, captured by the Wayback Machine on March 17, 2019, underscores how fast Indy has grown:On SnowvanaFish talked about his Northwest “stoke festival,” Snowvana, which has become an annual Portland tradition. You can learn about it here.On Peak Performance agingOn a 10-hour drive from South Tahoe to San Diego last month, I streamed an episode of The Reinvention Project with Jim Rome that featured author Steven Kotler. He'd recently written a book called Growing Old, Staying Rad, which exposes myths around physical and mental degeneration and aging. One giant takeaway: your skills only decline if you let them. I brought this up in the context of Doug's career because he created the Indy Pass at age 62, a cultural waypoint at which most Americans are hypnotized to believe their most productive time is past them. And here Fish creates one of the greatest products in skiing in his seventh decade. It's a remarkable anecdote that proves Kotler's point and underscores the incredible power of moving forever forward.I have been listening to Jim Rome's daily sports talk radio show for decades, and my interview style largely mimics his. This one is well worth a listen if you're at all interested in aging with style:On the Indy Pass top 10In the podcast, Fish lays out the top-10 most-redeemed Indy Pass ski areas for the 2022-23 ski season. Here they are:1)    Jay Peak2)    Waterville Valley3)    Cannon Mountain4)    Pats Peak5)    Bolton Valley6)    Saddleback7)    Magic Mountain8)    Berkshire East9)    Powder Mountain10) Lutsen MountainsAnd here's what the list looks like year-by-year since Indy's inaugural season:Most of the sliding around between this season and last can be attributed to blackout dates: Lutsen and Pats Peak increased theirs and thus slid in the rankings. Cannon reduced theirs and so advanced. And then there's Saddleback:On Saddleback blackoutsFish notes that Saddleback was a first-time entrant into the Indy Pass top 10. There was no mystery as to why: “A lot of resorts in New England added blackouts, Saddleback took theirs away,” for the 2021-22 ski season, Fish tells me on the podcast.Saddleback General Manager Jim Quimby and I discussed exactly this, and how crucial Indy Pass has been to the mountain's renaissance since re-opening in 2020 after a five-year closure, in our recent podcast conversation (1:28):Honestly though just listen to the whole thing. Quimby delivers the rich history of Saddleback with an unforgettable series of anecdotes, reflections, and emotion. One of the best episodes I have to offer.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing all year long. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 38/100 in 2023, and number 424 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. 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This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on April 2. It dropped for free subscribers on April 5. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. You can also subscribe for free below:WhoJim Quimby, General Manager of Saddleback, MaineRecorded onMarch 6, 2023About SaddlebackClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Arctaris InvestmentsLocated in: Rangeley, MaineYear founded: 1960Pass affiliations: Indy PassReciprocal partners: NoneClosest neighboring ski areas: Sugarloaf (52 minutes), Titcomb (1 hour), Black Mountain of Maine (1 hour, 9 minutes), Spruce Mountain (1 hour, 22 minutes), Baker Mountain (1 hour, 33 minutes), Mt. Abram (1 hour, 36 minutes), Sunday River (1 hour, 41 minutes)Base elevation: 2,120 feetSummit elevation: 4,120 feetVertical drop: 2,000 feetSkiable Acres: 600+Average annual snowfall: 225 inchesTrail count: 68 (23 beginner, 20 intermediate, 18 advanced, 7 expert) + 2 terrain parksLift count: 6 (1 high-speed quad, 3 fixed-grip quads, 1 T-bar, 1 carpet)Why I interviewed himThe best article I've ever read on Saddleback came from Bill Donahue, writing for Outside, with the unfortunate dateline of March 9, 2020. That was a few days before the planet shut down to prevent the spread of Covid-19, and just after Arctaris had purchased Saddleback and promised to tug the ski area out of its five-year slumber. Donahue included a long section on Quimby:But to really register the new hope that's blossomed in Rangeley, I needed to drive up the winding hill to Saddleback's lodge and talk to Jimmy Quimby. Fifty-nine years old and weathered, his chin specked with salt-and-pepper stubble, Quimby is the scion of a Saddleback pillar. His father, Doc, poured concrete to build the towers for one of Saddleback's first lifts in 1963 and later built trails and made snow for the mountain. His mother, Judy, worked in the ski area's cafeteria for about 15 years. “We were so poor,” Quimby told me, “that we didn't have a pot to piss in, but I skied every weekend.” Indeed, as a high schooler, Quimby took part in every form of alpine ski competition available—on a single pair of skis. His 163-centimeter Dynastar Easy Riders were both his ballet boards and his giant-slalom guns. They also transported him to mischief. In his teenage years, Quimby was part of a nefarious Saddleback gang, the Rat Pack. “We terrorized the skiing public,” he said. “We built jumps. We skied fast. We made the T-bar swerve so people fell off.”Just days after his 18th birthday, Quimby left Maine to serve 20 years in the Air Force as an electrical-line repairman and managed, somehow, to spend a good chunk of time near Japan's storied Hakkoda Ski Resort, where he routinely hucked himself off 35-foot cornices while schussing in blue jeans. When he returned to Maine in 1998, he commenced working at Saddleback and honed such a love for the mountain that, when it closed in 2015, his heart broke. He simply refused to ski after that. “I decided,” he said, “that I just wouldn't ski anywhere else.” Friends in the industry offered him free tickets at nearby mountains; Quimby demurred and hunkered down at Saddleback, where he remained mountain manager. The Berrys paid him to watch over the nonfunctioning trails and lifts during the long closure. “I'm a prideful person,” he explained. “OK, I did do a little skiing with my grandchildren, but they're preschoolers. I haven't made an adult turn since Saddleback closed.”Quimby is now working for Arctaris, which owns Saddleback Inc., but that's a technicality. His mission is spiritual, and when I met him in his office, I found that I had stepped into a shrine, a jam-packed Saddleback museum. There were lapel pins, patches, bumper stickers, posters, and also a wooden ski signed in 1960 by about 35 of Saddleback's progenitors. Quimby's prize possession, though, is a brass belt buckle he bought in the Saddleback rental shop in the 1970s. “I used to wear it every day,” he told me, “but when Saddleback closed, I put it on a dresser and never wore it again.”Quimby stood up from the desk now, to reveal that he was wearing the buckle once more. In capitalized brass letters, it read “SKI.” His eyes were glassy with emotion.“We're going to do this,” he said quietly, speaking of Saddleback's resurrection. “We're going to make this happen.”They did make this happen. One feature of improbable feats is that they are often taken for granted once achieved. The number of people who confessed doubts to me privately about the viability of Saddleback is significant. It won't work because… it's too remote, there are not enough skier visits to spread around Maine, there are too many bodies buried on the property, the previous owners emptied the GDP of a small country onto the property and it still failed. All fair arguments, but for every built thing there are reasons it should have failed. The great advantage of humans over other animals is our ability to solve the unsolvable. I push a button on my phone and a person 5,000 miles away sees a note from me in an instant. That would have been dubbed magic for 100,000 years and now it is a fact of daily existence. Humans can do amazing things. And the humans who dug Saddleback out of the grave did an amazing thing, and it's a story I just can't get enough of.What we talked aboutSaddleback's strong 2022-23 ski season; the Casablanca Glades; the ski area in the sixties; “Saddleback was my babysitter”; Rangeley reminisces; when the U.S. Air Force stations a ski bum in Northern Japan; the Donald Breen era of Saddleback and a long battle with the Forest Service; Saddleback's relationship with the Forest Service today; the Berry family arrives; an investment spree; why Saddleback closed in 2015; why the Berrys replaced the Kennebago T-bar with a quad and whether they should have upgraded the Rangeley lift first; Quimby's reaction when Saddleback closed; how Quimby kept Saddleback from falling apart during his five years as caretaker of a lost ski area; why Arctaris finally revitalized the ski area after so many other potential buyers had faded; the most important man at Saddleback; the blessing and the curse of rebuilding a ski area in the pandemic year of 2020; how close Saddleback came to upgrading Rangeley to a fixed-grip, rather than a detachable, quad; how much that lift transformed the ski area; the legacy of Andy Shepard, the former general manager who oversaw the ski area's comeback; Saddleback the business in year three of its comeback; surveying Saddleback's ultra-new lift fleet; why Saddleback replaced the 900-year-old Cupsuptic T-bar with a brand-new T-bar; why the ski area chose Partek to build the new Sandy quad and how successful that lift has been; the story behind the old Saddleback trailmaps with theoretical lifts scribbled all over them (yes, this one):… whether Saddleback will expand terrain any time soon; the ski area's next likely chairlift; the potential for a hotel; the mountain's masterplan; how important the Indy Pass has been to Saddleback's comeback; and Indy blackouts and whether they will continue.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewWith lift towers rising up the mountainside and hammers clanging through the valleys and autumn frosts biting the New England hills, Andy Shepard hacked out an hour for me in October 2020 to discuss the previous six months at Saddleback. He itemized the tasks that Saddleback's crews had achieved in the maw of Covid. An incomprehensible list. Rebuild everything. Clean everything. Hire an army. Demolish and build a chairlift. Stand up a website and an e-commerce platform. All in the midst of the most confusing and contentious time in modern American history. The mission was awesome, and so was the story behind it:Congratulations, you did it. But the second that new detachable quad started spinning in December 2020, Saddleback became just another New England ski area, just another choice for skiers who already have dozens. So now what? What of all those old masterplans showing terrain expansions and lifts extending halfway to Canada? When can we get more places to stay on the hill? Can we get snowmaking on the trail back to the condos finally?Two and a half years later, it was time for a check-in. To see how Shepard and Quimby and the crew had quietly transformed what was long a backwater bump into one of the most modern ski areas in the country. To see how the Indy Pass – which hadn't existed when Saddleback went into its shell – had turbocharged the mountain's comeback tour. And to see, indeed, what is next for this New England gem.What I got wrongI wasn't wrong on this so much as late to publish: Quimby and I discussed season passes at the end of the podcast. At the time, details on the 2023-24 pass suite had not yet been released, and we talked a bit about where pricing would land. These details have long gone public, but I kept the section intact because Quimby details why the ski area was compelled to raise rates from previous seasons (the increase ended up being modest in the context of ongoing inflation, from $699 this season to $799 for next).Also there's a reference in our conversation to Sandy being a detachable quad, but the 227-vertical-foot quad is in fact a fixed-grip lift.Why you should ski SaddlebackMan is this place big. Two broad ridges staggered and stacked and parallel, with dozens of ways down each. Glades all over. Amazing fall line skiing. Lift lines? Not many. Maybe on Rangeley, maybe on big days. But mostly, the place is a glorious wide-open banger, stuffed into a north country snow pocket that most always stands above New England's notorious rain-snow line as storms roll through.“Yes but is it worth the drive?” asks Overthinks Everything Bro. Yes it's worth the drive. “But I have to pass 19 other big ski areas to get there.” So? If a genie erupts out of my next can of Bang Energy Drink, my first wish will be to eliminate this brand of thinking from existence. Passing other ski areas to ski Saddleback is not like passing a McDonald's at exit 100 to eat at a McDonald's at exit 329, more than 200 miles down the road. You're passing a number of distinct and unique ski areas to experience another distinct and unique ski area. A Saddleback run will imprint on your experience in a way that your 400th day at Waterville Valley will not.Not all of us, I realize, are so driven by novelty and the unknown. To many of you, turns are turns. Yee-haw. But I'm not suggesting you drive four hours out of your way to lap a town ropetow. This is a serious mountain, with terrain that has few peers in New England. It is special, and it is most definitely worth it.Podcast NotesOn the ski area's battle with the National Park ServiceQuimby and I had a long discussion on Saddleback's 15-plus-year war with the National Park Service over former owner Donald Breen's expansion plans. While Saddleback sits on private land, the Appalachian Trail runs over the mountain's summit, giving the government a say in any development that may impact the trail. As with most things New England, New England Ski History provides a comprehensive synopsis of what amounts to Saddleback's lost generation:With Saddleback finally financially stable and controlling 12,000 acres of land, Breen sought to tap into its vast potential in the mid 1980s. In 1984, Breen told Ski magazine, "Saddleback has the potential to be one of the largest resorts in this part of the country" and could become "the Vail of the East."While a massive development was possible, including above treeline skiing as well as a bowl on the back side of the mountain, initial plans were made for a phased $36 million expansion "opening up the entire bowl where the ski area sits with three more lifts and numerous trails."Working to gain approvals, Saddleback offered to donate a 200-foot easement to the National Park Service for the Appalachian Trail while retaining the ability to have skiers and equipment cross the corridor if needed. Countering the ski area's plans, the National Park Service recommended taking 3,000 acres of Saddleback's land. As a result, instead of investing in the mountain, Breen was forced to spend large sums of money to defend his property from eminent domain.Attempting to break the impasse in the early 1990s, Saddleback offered to pare back expansion plans and sell 2,000 acres to the National Park Service. The National Park Service responded with an offer for one sixth of the amount Saddleback wanted from the property.By the mid 1990s, Saddleback was offering to donate 300 acres of land to the National Park Service, while retaining the right to cross the Appalachian Trail with connector ski trails. The National Park Service once again refused, sticking with its eminent domain plan. Later Congressional testimony revealed that the Breen family was forced to negotiate with and give concessions to the Appalachian Trail Conference, only to have the agreements retracted by the National Park Service. In addition, the National Park Service would refuse to turn over documents relating to its involvement with other ski areas, or to put parameters of potential agreements in writing.After having spent a decade and a half of his life trying to work with the Forest Service, Donald Breen took a step back from negotiations in 1997, handing the reins over to his daughter Kitty. The Maine Congressional Delegation was brought in to attempt to get the National Park Service to negotiate.At Senator Olympia Snowe's urging, Saddleback offered to sell the bowl on the back side of the mountain to the Park Service in exchange for being able to develop its Horn Bowl area. The National Park Service rejected the offer, insisting the expansion was not viable, that the ski area could sustain increased skier visits on its existing footprint, and that Saddleback's undeveloped land had little financial value.Negotiations continued into 2000, at which point Saddleback had increased its donation offer to 660 acres, while the National Park Service still wanted to take 893 acres by eminent domain. Five proposals were put on the table while the National Park Service threatened to turn the matter over to the Department of Justice for condemnation. Finally, on November 2, 2000, the National Park Service and Saddleback reached a deal in which the Breens donated 570 acres along the Appalachian Trail corridor, while selling the 600 acre back bowl for $4 million. While the deal meant Breen could move forward with his development of the resort, the long battle with the government had consumed millions of dollars and nearly two decades of his life. Now in his 70s, Breen was ready to retire. In 2001, the massive resort property was put on the market for $12 million.To understand just how deeply this conflict stalled the ski area's potential evolution, consider this: when Breen and the Forest Service squared off in 1984, Sunday River, less than two hours away and closer to pretty much everyone, looked like this:And Saddleback looked like this:While both had just five lifts – Sunday River sported a triple, two doubles, and two T-bars; Saddleback had two doubles and three T-bars – Saddleback was the larger of the two, with a more interesting and complex trail network. But while Breen fought the Forest Service, his mountain stood still. Meanwhile, Les Otten went ballistic at Sunday River, stringing terrain pods for miles in each direction. By 2001, when Breen sold, Sunday River looked like this:While Saddleback had languished:Whatever market share Saddleback could have earned during New England's Great Ski Area Modernization – which more or less exactly coincided with his Forest Service fight from 1984 to 2001 – was lost to Sunday River and Sugarloaf, both of which spent that era building rather than fighting.And yes, I also thought, “well what did Sugarloaf look like in 1984 and 2001?” So here you go:On the Berry familyBreen sold Saddleback in 2001 to the Berry family, who absolutely mainlined cash into the joint. Over the next decade, the family replaced the upper (Kennebago) and lower (Buggy) T-bars with fixed-grip quads, and substantially blew out the trail and glade network. Check the place in 2014:But two big problems remained. First, that double chair marked “C” on the map above is the Rangeley lift, the alpha chair out of the base. It was a 1963 Mueller that could move all of 900 skiers per hour. And while skiers could have ridden Sandy to the Cupsuptic T-bar (if both were running), to the Pass trail to access the Kennebago quad and the upper mountain, that's not how most people think. They want to go straight to the top. So they'd wait.Which leads to the second problem. Queueing up for a double chair that was pulled off of Noah's Ark when you could be skiing onto high-speed (or at least modern) lifts just down the road at Sunday River or Sugarloaf is frustrating. Lines to board the lift could reportedly stretch to an hour on weekends. Facing such gridlock and frustration, most casual skiers who stumbled onto the place probably thought some version of, “This is cute, but next weekend, I'm going to Sunday River.”And they did. If the Berrys could have upgraded Rangeley, the whole project may have worked. But financing fell through, as Quimby details in the podcast, and the ski area closed shortly after. But to underscore just how crucial the Rangeley lift is to Saddleback's viability as a modern resort, Arctaris, the current owners, reportedly paid more to replace the chairlift ($7 million), than they did for the ski area itself ($6.5 million).On potential buyers between the Berrys and ArctarisQuimby notes that a parade of suitors tromped through Saddleback between 2015, when the ski area closed, and 2020, when it finally re-opened. The most significant of these was Australia-based Majella Group, whose courtship New England Ski History summarizes:On June 28, 2017, the Berry family announced they had reached an agreement to sell Saddleback to the Australia-based Majella Group. Grandiose plans were announced, as Majella declared it would be "turning Saddleback into the premier ski resort in North America." Initial plans called for reopening for the 2017-18 season with a new fixed-grip quad replacing the Rangeley Double and a new Cupsuptic T-Bar. However, despite announcements that "physical work" had started in September and that the company was "committed to opening in some capacity for the 2017-18 ski season," the area remained idle that winter and the sale was not completed.Nearly one year after the original sale announcement, the Majella Group CEO Sebastian Monsour was arrested in Australia for alleged investor fraud, revealing a financial house of cards. The Majella branding was removed from the Saddleback web site that fall and the ski area sat idle during the snowy winter of 2018-19.So things could have been much worse. Had Majella completed the purchase and then fallen apart, Saddleback would likely still be idle, caught in a Jay Peak-esque vortex of court-led asset salvation, but without the benefit of operating revenue.On Mount WashingtonQuimby notes that the weather at Saddleback can be “comparative to Mount Washington and that's no joke.” For those of you unfamiliar with just how ferocious Mount Washington weather can be, here's a synopsis from the Mt. Washington State Park website (emphasis mine):…in winter, sub-zero temperatures, hurricane-force winds, blowing snow and incredible ice claim the peak, creating an arctic outpost in a temperate climate zone. Known as the Home of the World's Worst Weather, Mount Washington's winter conditions rival those of Mount Everest and the Polar regions.The mountain's summit holds the world record for the “highest surface wind speed ever observed by man,” at 231 miles per hour. As I write this, the summit temperature is 4 degrees Fahrenheit, with 62-mile-per-hour winds driving the windchill to 28 degrees below zero. It's April 2. There's surely some hyperbole in Quimby's statement, but the spirit of the declaration is clear: if you go to Saddleback, go prepared.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 30/100 in 2023, and number 416 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

This podcast hit paid subscribers' inboxes on March 29. It dropped for free subscribers on April 1. To receive future pods as soon as they're live, and to support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription.WhoNick Polumbus, President of Whitefish Mountain Resort, MontanaRecorded onJanuary 13, 2023About WhitefishClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Winter Sports, Inc.Pass affiliations: NoneReciprocal pass partners:* 3 days each at Great Divide, Loveland, Mt. Hood Meadows* 5 days at Red LodgeLocated in: Whitefish, MontanaClosest neighboring ski areas: Blacktail (1 hour, 15 minutes), Fernie (2 hours), Turner (2 hours, 30 minutes), Kimberley (2 hours, 45 minutes), Montana Snowbowl (3 hours), Lookout Pass (3 hours) – travel times will vary considerably pending weather, border traffic, and time of yearBase elevation: 4,464 feetSummit elevation: 6,817 feetVertical drop: 2,353 feetSkiable Acres: roughly 3,000 acresAverage annual snowfall: nearly 300 inchesTrail count: 128 (8 expert, 49 advanced, 40 intermediate, 25 beginner, 6 terrain parks)Lift count: 15­­ (1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 6 triples, 2 T-bars, 1 carpet)Why I interviewed himYou can be forgiven for thinking that Epkon chewed them all up. That the only ski areas worth skiing are those stacked on the industry's twin magic carpets. These shuttles to something grand, to what you think of when you think about the mountains. Ikon got Jackson and Palisades and the Cottonwoods and Taos. Epic got Vail and Telluride and Heavenly and Park City. What more could be left? What more could you need?You probably need this. Whitefish. Or Big Mountain, as you will. Three thousand acres of Montana steep and white. Plenty of snow. Plenty of lifts. A new sixer to boom you up the hillside. The rootin'-tootin' town below. A C-note gets you a lift ticket and change to buy a brew. No bitterness in the exchange.It's hard to say exactly if Whitefish is an anachronism or an anomaly or a portent or a manifestation of wanton Montana swagger. Among big, developed U.S. mountains, it certainly stands alone.This model is extinct, I thought. Coercion-by-punishment being the preferred sales tactic of the big-mountain conglomerates. “Four lift tickets for today, Mr. Suburban Dad who decided to shepherd the children to Colorado on a last-minute spring break trip? That will be $1,200. Oh does that seem like a lot to you? Well that will teach you not to purchase access to skiing 13 months in advance.”So far, Whitefish has resisted skiing's worst idea. Good for them. Better for them: this appears to be a winning business strategy. Skier visits have climbed annually for more than a decade. Look at a map and you'll see that's more impressive than it sounds. Whitefish is parked at the top of America, near nothing, on the way to nothing. You have to go there on purpose. And with Epic and Ikon passes tumbling out of every other skier's jacket pockets, you need a special story to bait that journey.So what's going on here? Why hasn't this mountain done what every other mountain has done and joined a pass? Like the comely maiden at the ball, Whitefish could have its pick: Epic, Ikon, Mountain Collective, Indy. An instant headliner and pass-mover. But the single life can be appealing. Do as you please, chill with who you want, set your own agenda. That's Whitefish's game. And I'm watching.What we talked aboutWhy Whitefish typically calls it a season with a 100-inch summit base depth; Front Range Colorado and I-70 in the 1970s; how Colorado and Utah snow and traffic impacts skier traffic at Whitefish; how a Colorado kid enters the ski industry in Vermont; a business turnaround at Whitefish; “get the old fish out of the fridge”; how Whitefish has stayed affordable as it's modernized; why the ski area changed its name from “Big Mountain” and how that landed locally; who owns Whitefish and how committed they are to independence; the new Snow Ghost Express sixer; ripple effects on other chairlifts after Snow Ghost popped live; record skier visits; snow ghosts; the best marketing line of Polumbus' career; a big-time potential future expansion; the mountain's recent chairlift shuffles; why chairs 5 and 8 don't go to the summit; the art of terrain-pod building; why Bad Rock isn't running this winter; thoughts on the future of Tenderfoot and the Heritage T-bar; Why Whitefish lift tickets cost a fraction of what similarly sized mountains charge; an amazing season pass stat; the mountain's steady rise of skier visits; and much love for the Indy Pass even if it “isn't a good fit for us.”Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewWell I actually thought that January was a great time for this interview. Which is why I recorded it then. And here it is in your inbox, a mere 11 weeks later. Which is a bad look for me and a bad look for the brand and not very considerate to my guest. I'll offer an explanation, but not an excuse: the sound quality on this recording was, um, not good. Most podcasts take two to four hours to edit. This one required 10 times that. So why didn't I just blast it out back in January? Since so much of what I write is reaction to breaking news, every hour I spend on a pod is an hour I'm not delivering more urgent content. And most Storm Skiing Podcasts are fairly evergreen. Skiers binge them on long roadtrips – I know this because they tell me so and because the numbers keep going up on eps that I dropped back in 2019.But none of that matters to you or to the team at Whitefish, and it shouldn't. I know that a lot of you have been waiting for this one since I started hyping it last year, and this long delay was disappointing. I get it. One core promise of The Storm, however, is that I will continually improve the product and the process. So I'll own this one and refine my workflow to prevent future delays. Sorry.But, to address the actual purpose of this section: why did I think that now was a good time for this interview? It's everything I said above. Alterra has copied Vail's ridiculous day-ticket price structure, and Boyne and Powdr aren't far behind. Even little Mountain Capital Partners is allowing the robots to price-surge Arizona Snowbowl tickets past the $300 mark on peak days. Whitefish doesn't exactly stand alone in resisting these price schemes – plenty of other ski areas will still sell you a walk-up lift ticket that costs less than a heart transplant. But none are as large, as high-profile, and as modern as Whitefish – at least not in our beloved U.S. America. Like some brash hipster rocking a Walkman on his fixed-gear bicycle, Whitefish has made the once-pedestrian into the novel. Innovation by staying in place.The Epic Pass gets a lot of well-deserved credit for stabilizing skiing by front-loading pass sales to springtime, insulating revenue from weather-dependency. But Vail and Alterra have cast the $250-plus lift ticket as an essential piece of their passes' success. As though no one would buy the pass if they knew they could still go ski Beaver Creek for $100 anytime they liked. There is a brutal logic to this. You're only going to buy a $275 lift ticket one time. Then you'll go looking for hacks. But the process is demeaning and embarrassing, like you're the last guy to the gas pump in the apocalypse.I wrote a story on Whitefish's business model back in 2021, profiling both that mountain and Jay Peak. Both are run, perhaps coincidentally, by headmen who are fist-bump bros that came up together at late-ASC Killington in the ‘90s: Polumbus and Jay Peak's Steve Wright. I don't know how much they brought their brains together to arrive at similar ticket menus, but I know from interacting with both that they share the same kind of heart. A down-to-earth humility and empathy that considers humans in the business equation, rather than just making them the number at the transactional finish line.Why you should ski WhitefishDid you see the part above about 3,000 acres of terrain and 300 inches of average annual snowfall? Yeah, go enjoy that.But let me harp on the lift ticket thing just a little bit more. If your boys are anything like mine, they are more likely to translate War and Peace into Braille than they are to heed your advice to purchase lift tickets 10 months before your next ski trip. I say this not because my friends are brilliant, but because they are lazy a******s who need their wives to label their underwear drawers lest they be forced to go commando for months on end. So if you're planning, say, “Gary's 50th Birthday Ski Adventure,” you have choices: Heavenly (South Tahoe!), Jackson (Jackson!), Telluride (Telluride!), etc. My buddies, mostly Three-Day Dans, are going to ignore my clear and repeated reminders to purchase Epic Day or Mountain Collective Passes, and are instead going to commandeer their monthly car payment to cover the cost of two days' skiing. And then be all shocked and annoyed about it. Whitefish, where even last-minute skiing runs less than $100 per day, is the solution to such gatherings.That's an edge case, I realize. And surely there are attributes of skiing Whitefish beyond the low cost at the turnstile: the terrain, the views, the snowghosts, the unpretentious vibe, the snowfall, the enormous breadth of it all. But the price thing matters enormously. If you have an Ikon Pass and you're passing through Park City, you're probably not stopping to scope the place out. Throwing down $269 for a day of skiing seems a little stupid if you have unlimited skiing on a $1,000-plus pass that you already own. But if you're rolling from Sun Peaks down to Big Sky and you want to sidebar to Whitefish, well, that lift ticket's not going to kill you in the same way. That sort of pop-around spontaneity defined a big piece of the road-trip ski scene for decades, and it's fading. Too bad.  Podcast NotesOn American Skiing Company and S-K-IPolumbus refers to the S-K-I and American Skiing Company (ASC) Merger, which roughly coincided with the beginning of his Killington tenure in 1996. Check this crazy portfolio, as documented by New England Ski History:At the time of the deal, both companies only had New England ski areas, with LBO Resort Enterprises' portfolio composed of Attitash Bear Peak, NH, Cranmore, NH, Sugarbush, VT, and Sunday River, ME, while S-K-I Ltd. owned Haystack, VT, Killington, VT, Mt. Snow, VT, Sugarloaf, ME, and Waterville Valley, NH.Can you imagine if that crew had held into the megapass era? Instead, they are split between seven different owners:The coalition didn't hold for long. The Justice department made ASC sell Cranmore and Waterville Valley immediately. And even though the company was like “F you Brah” and purchased Pico five minutes later, and went on to purchase The Canyons (then Wolf Mountain, formerly Park West, now part of Park City), Steamboat, and Heavenly, the whole enterprise disintegrated in slow motion over the next dozen years. New England Ski History documents the company's arc comprehensively:On lift shufflesWhitefish moves lifts around its mountain like some of us re-organize our living room couches. Check out the 2005 front-side trailmap on the left. By 2007, the Glacier Chaser Express had been shortened and slid looker's left to replace the old Swift Creek double, and the Easy Rider triple had moved down-mountain and become Elk Meadows. The new Easy Rider, a quad seated across the mountain, was also a relocated machine, from Moab Scenic Skyway, according to Lift Blog.In 2017, Whitefish moved Glacier View, a 1981 CTEC triple, to a new location and renamed it East Rim:Then last year, Whitefish moved the Hellroaring triple looker's left across the mountain. Note the changes in the trail network below Lacey Lane, which ran under the old line:Amazingly, that was the second time Whitefish had relocated that same chair. It began life in 1985 as the Big Creek chairlift, which served the North Side in this circa 1995 trailmap:The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 27/100 in 2023, and number 413 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing all year long. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Partners Nick Marica, James Burkhart and Jay Peak seem to have discovered a divine intersection between their callings. Having never met in person they meet on Zoom in their weekly peer group (Forum). Get inspired by their story and consider discovering the possibilities of collaboration within a Pinnacle Forum. PinnacleForum.com Show Notes: https://pinnacleforum.com/2023/03/ul-podcast-238/

To support independent ski journalism, please consider an upgrade to a paid subscription. The discounted annual rate is back through March 13, 2023.WhoChristian Knapp, Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer of Pacific Group ResortsRecorded onFebruary 27, 2023About Pacific Group ResortsPacific Group Resorts (PGRI) owns and/or operates six North American ski areas:While they don't have a single unified pass like Vail Resorts or Mountain Capital Partners, PGRI's ski areas do offer reciprocity for their passholders, largely through their Mission: Affordable product. Here are the 2022-23 exchanges – the company has not yet released 2023-24 passes:Why I interviewed himThere are more than a dozen companies that own three or more ski areas in North America. The National Ski Areas Association itemizes most of them* here. Everyone knows Vail and Aspen, whether they ski or not. The next tier is a little more insider, but not much: Alterra, Boyne, Powdr. These are the ski companies with national footprints and Ikon Pass headliner resorts. If skiers haven't heard of these companies, they're familiar with Mammoth and Big Sky and Snowbird. Everything else on the list is regionally dense: Invision Capital's three California ski areas (Mountain High, Dodge Ridge, China Peak); Wisconsin Resorts six Midwestern bumps (Alpine Valley, Pine Knob, Mt. Holly, and Bittersweet in Michigan; Alpine Valley in Wisconsin; and Searchmont in Ontario); the State of New York's Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface. Some – like Midwest Family Ski Resorts' trio of gigantors – align with Indy Pass, while others stand alone, with a pass just for their mountains, like Mountain Capital Partners' Power Pass.PGRI doesn't fit any of these templates. The company has a national footprint, with properties stretching from coastal BC to New Hampshire, but no national pass presence (at least before the company inherited Jay Peak's Indy Pass membership). Its properties' season passes sort of work together but sort of don't. It's all a little strange: a small ski area operator, based in Park City, whose nearest ski area is more than a 400-mile drive away, on the edge of Colorado's Grand Mesa. PGRI is built like a regional operator, but its ski areas are scattered across the continent, including in improbable-seeming locales such as Maryland and Virginia.Despite the constant facile reminders that American Skiing Company and SKI failed, small conglomerates such as PGRI are likely the future of skiing. Owning multiple resorts in multiple regions is the best kind of weather insurance. Scale builds appeal both for national pass coalitions and for banks, who often control the cash register. A larger company can build a talent pipeline to shift people around and advance their careers, which often improves retention, creating, in turn, a better ski experience. Or so the theories go. Independence will always have advantages, and consolidation its pitfalls, but the grouping together of ski resorts is not going away. So let's talk to one of the companies actively growing on its own terms, in its own way, and setting a new template for what corporate skiing balanced with local control can look like.*Missing from the NSAA's list is the Schmitz Brothers trio of Wisconsin ski areas: Little Switzerland, Nordic Mountain, and The Rock Snow Park; the list also includes Sun Valley and Snowbasin, which are jointly owned by the Holding Family, but excludes the other two-resort groups around the country: Berkshire East/Catamount, Labrador/Song, 49 Degrees North/Silver Mountain, Homewood/Red Lodge, Perfect North/Timberline, and Mission Ridge/Blacktail - there may be others).What we talked aboutThe bomber western winter; closing Wintergreen early; the existential importance of Eastern snowmaking; why Mid-Atlantic ski resorts are such great businesses; growing up in the ski industry; Mt. Bachelor in the ‘90s; Breck in the early Vail days; why founding the Mountain Collective was harder than you probably think; the surprising mountain that helped start but never joined the pass; how essential the existence of Mountain Collective was to Ikon Pass; why Ikon didn't kill Mountain Collective; the origins and structure of Pacific Group Resorts (PGRI); reviving the historically troubled Ragged Mountain; the two things that PGRI did differently from previous owners to finally help Ragged succeed; the Mission: Affordable pass suite; how Jay Peak turbocharged reciprocity between the company's resorts; how reciprocity for Jay Peak may shape up for 2023-24 passes; why we're unlikely to see a Mission: Affordable pass at Jay Peak; why Mount Washington Alpine hasn't had a Mission: Affordable pass; the future of Jay Peak – and, potentially the rest of PGRI's portfolio – on the Indy Pass; the fate of Ragged's Pinnacle Peak expansion; how and why PGRI started running and eventually purchased Wisp and Wintergreen; wild and isolated Mount Washington Alpine; could that Vancouver Island resort ever be a destination?; thoughts on replacing the West End double at Powderhorn; why PGRI has not prioritized lift replacements at the rate of some of its competitors; priorities for lift upgrades at Wisp; winning the bid for Jay Peak; reflecting on receivership; the chances of getting a new Bonaventure lift; and whether PGRI will buy more ski areas.Why I thought that now was a good time for this interviewThe lazy answer: PGRI just bought Jay Peak, and while writing the various stories leading up to and after the auction in which they acquired the joint,  I established contact with PGRI corporate HQ for the first time. My first impression was not a great one (on their side), as I managed to not only jack up the company name in the headline announcing their opening bid, but get the fundamentals of the story so wrong that I had to issue a correction with a full article re-send for the only time in Storm history. Which apparently created a huge PR pain in the ass for them. Sorry.Maybe the stupid jokes eventually disarmed them over or something, but for whatever reason Knapp agreed to do the pod. As you know I don't typically host marketing-type folks. I work with them all the time and value them immensely, but that's just not the brand. The brand is talk-to-whoever-is-in-charge-of-whatever-mountain-or-company-I'm-talking-about. But Knapp is a unique case, the former CMO of Aspen Skiing Company and the creator of the uber-relevant-to-my-readers Mountain Collective Pass. So Knapp joins the equally impressive Hugh Reynolds of Snow Partners as the only other marketing lead to ever carry his own episode.Ahem. What I was trying to get to is this: yes, this was a convenient time to drill into PGRI, because they just bought one of the most important ski resorts on the Eastern seaboard and everyone's like, “Now what, Bro?” But this is a company that has been quietly relevant for years. It cannot be overstated what an absolute shitshow Ragged Mountain was for five decades. No one could get that thing right. Now it is one of the most well-regarded ski areas in New Hampshire, with knockout grooming, a killer glade network, one of the state's best lift systems, and a customer-friendly orientation that begins with its ridiculous Mission: Affordable season pass, one of the few all-access season passes under $400 at a thousand-foot-plus mountain in New England.Which set them up perfectly to glide into the Jay marquee. Almost any other buyer would have ignited mutiny at Jay. No one I've spoken to who skis the mountain regularly wanted the place anywhere near the Ikon Pass. So no Alterra, Powdr, or Boyne. Epic? LOL no. Locals have seen enough downstate. Another rich asshat cackling with cartoon glee as he shifts hundreds of millions of dollars around like he's reorganizing suitcases in his Escalade? F**k no. Jay will be shedding the scabs of Ariel Quiros' various schemes for decades. PGRI hit that Goldilocks spot, a proven New England operator without megapass baggage that has operated scandal-free for 15 years, and is run by people who know how to make a big resort go (PGRI CEO Vern Greco is former president and GM of both Park City and Steamboat, and the former COO of Powdr Corp).PGRI is just good at running ski areas. Wisp opened Thanksgiving weekend, despite 70-degree temperatures through much of that month, despite being in Maryland. Visitation has been trending up at Powderhorn for years after steady snowmaking improvements. It's hard to find anyone with a bad opinion of Ragged.But PGRI has never been what business folk call a “consumer-facing brand.” Meaning they let the resorts speak for themselves. Meaning we don't know much about the company behind all those mountains, or what their plans are to build out their network. Or build within it, for that matter. PGRI has only stood up one new chairlift in 16 years – the Spear Mountain high-speed quad at Ragged. Powderhorn skiers are side-eyeing the 51-year-old, 1,655-vertical-foot, 7,000-foot-long West End double chair and thinking, “are you kidding me with this thing?” Five years into ownership, they want a plan. Or at least to know it's a priority. There are lesser examples all over the portfolio. It was time to see what these guys were thinking.Questions I wish I'd askedI had a few questions teed up that I didn't quite get to: why is Ragged still owned by something called RMR-Pacific LLC (and operated by PGRI)? I also wanted to understand why some PGRI ski areas use dynamic pricing but others don't. I'm still a little confused as to the exact timeline of Pacific Group purchasing Ragged and then PGRI materializing to take over the ski area. And of course I could have filled an entire hour with questions on any of the six ski areas. What I got wrongWhen I summarized Ragged's traumatic financial history, I said, “ownership defaulted on a loan.” It sounded as though I was suggesting that PGRI defaulted on the loan, when it was in fact the previous owner. You can read the full history of Ragged's many pre-PGRI financial issues on New England Ski History.I said that Midwest Family Ski Resorts had announced two new high-speed six-packs “in the past couple years.” They've actually announced two within the past year, both of which will be built this summer: a new Eagle Mountain lift at Lutsen, and a new sixer to replace three old Riblets on the Jackson Creek Summit side of Snowriver.Somehow though I got through this entire interview without calling the company “Pacific Resorts Group” and I would like credit for this please.Why you should ski PGRI's mountainsWell let's just fire through these real quick. Jay: most snow in the East. Nearly 300 inches so far even in this drab-until-the-past-two-weeks New England season. Some of the best glade skiing in the country. Just look:Ragged: Also strong on glades, though it gets maybe a third of Jay's snowfall if it's lucky. When the snow doesn't come, Ragged has some of the best grooming in New Hampshire:Wisp and Wintergreen: you know, I take my kid to Mt. Peter, a small ski area outside of New York City, every Saturday for a seasonal ski program. I'd say 80 percent of the parents arrive in street clothes, drop their kids, and sit in the lodge zombie-scrolling their phones for 90 minutes. Why? Why wouldn't a person ski every opportunity they have? This is what Wisp and Wintergreen exist for. Sure, you live in the Mid-Atlantic. No one is trying to pretend it's Colorado. But these are good little mountains. Wisp is a zinger, with terrific fall line skiing. Wintergreen sprawls, with a fun trail network and two high-speed sixers. If you live anywhere near them, there's absolutely no reason not to pick up their sub-$400 season passes (though Wintergreen's is not a true season pass, excluding Saturdays and holidays, which are reserved for club members) to supplement the Epic or Ikon Pass you use for those Western or New England vacations:Powderhorn: If you live in Grand Junction, you can fight your way east, or stop on the Mesa and go skiing:Mt. Washington Alpine: I know you'll all tell me this is for locals, that no one would bother trekking out to Vancouver Island when they can reach Whistler in a fraction of the time. But I don't know man, I've done enough wild voyages to the ass-ends of the earth to have convinced myself that it's always worth it, especially if skiing is involved:Besides, you're not going to find Whistler crowds here, and this is about enough mountain for most of us.Podcast NotesOn Wisp and Wintergreen opening and closing datesI mentioned on the podcast that Wisp opened in November. The exact date was Nov. 25 for Wisp. The resort is still open today, though on “limited terrain,” and I imagine the season is winding down quickly. Wintergreen opened on Dec. 20 and closed Feb. 26. Ugh.On the world's largest snow fortKnapp said he helped start this tradition when he worked at Keystone:On the Mountain CollectiveKnapp and I had an extensive discussion about his role founding Mountain Collective, which debuted in 2012 with two days each at Alta, Aspen-Snowmass, Jackson Hole, and Palisades Tahoe. At $349, it's underwhelming to today's ski consumer, but it's impossible to overstate how miraculous it was that the product existed at all. I won't give away the whole story, but this 2012 Powder article crystalizes the shock and stoke around the realization that these four resorts were on the same pass, Brah!On Pinnacle Peak at Ragged PGRI is probably hoping I will stop asking them about this stalled expansion at Ragged sometime this century. No luck so far, as I presented Knapp with the same set of questions that I'd asked Ragged GM Erik Barnes on the podcast last year. Here's what I was talking about: in 2007, PGRI took over Ragged. From 2014 to 2019, the mountain teased this future expansion on its trailmaps:Then, without explanation, the expansion disappeared. What happened? “The expansion does not make financial sense,” Knapp told me last year. But I wanted a more thorough explanation. Knapp delivered. This is still one of the most talked-about projects in New England, and its sudden abeyance has been a source of curiosity and confusion for Ragged skiers for a few years now. Listen up to find out what happened.The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, please consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. The discounted annual rate is available until March 13, 2023.The Storm publishes year-round, and guarantees 100 articles per year. This is article 19/100 in 2023, and number 405 since launching on Oct. 13, 2019. Want to send feedback? Reply to this email and I will answer (unless you sound insane, or, more likely, I just get busy). You can also email skiing@substack.com. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe