Podcasts about because i'll

What do high growth companies with savvy marketing teams do to drive traffic growth? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Directive Consulting founder Garrett Mehrguth shares what his team does to help companies like Allstate and Cisco boost traffic even after all of the low hanging marketing and SEO fruit has been picked. TL;DR, It all starts with product marketing, SEO and a focus on bottom of the funnel, high intent leads. Garrett shares the specific strategies his team at Directive uses to get results for their clients, as well as his advice for startups that want to do it right from the beginning. Highlights from my conversation with Garrett include: Garrett says that everything Directive does is based on the belief that your brand is more important than your website. What that means is that when someone with high purchase intent is searching online for a solution, you need to make sure you're discoverable. He says that sometimes your marketing metrics have an inverse correlation with your financial metrics, meaning that if you focus on the top of the funnel, you might generate a lot of traffic, but you won't get as many high intent leads as you would if you focus on the bottom of the funnel (which generally results in less traffic). Garrett's advice is to track CAC (cost to acquire a customer) and LTV (lifetime value) and use that to determine whether you are paying a reasonable cost per demo, opportunity or proposal -- NOT cost per lead. For many companies, the best place to focus their initial marketing efforts is on ranking on review sites. Done well, this can allow a lesser known, newer market entrant to unseat an incumbent player very quickly. You can pay review sites to conduct review generation campaigns on your behalf, and Garrett says it is absolutely worth it to spend that money. Another strategy that works well is to use LinkedIn ads for awareness raising. Garrett says that leads that come through LinkedIn are not high intent, so you shouldn't spend a lot on a cost per impression basis. Instead, he and his team "trick" LinkedIn by advertising on a cost per click basis. Not many people click the ads, so LinkedIn accelerates their placement in the feed and they get seen by a lot of people. In terms of content, Garrett believes the traditional approach to pillar content and topic clusters promoted by HubSpot is wrong. Instead, he uses that same content and creates product pages as pillars, which he then uses to link to from blogs that address bottom of the funnel topics. Garrett builds authority for product pages by guest blogging (where he can control anchor text and backlinks) and doing podcast guest interviews. He says that where its tough to get your subject matter experts to create written content, you should invest more heavily in podcast guest interviews. Garrett's advice for companies right now is to double down on online advertising. Because so many companies have shut down or pulled their online ads back, prices are down and it is easier to get found. Resources from this episode: Check out the Directive Consulting website Follow Garrett on Twitter at @gmehrguth Connect with Garrett on LinkedIn Email garrett at gmehrguth[at]directiveconsulting[dot]com Listen to the podcast to get specific strategies for combining product marketing and SEO to generate more qualified bottom of the funnel leads.   Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week my guest is Garrett Mehrguth from Directive. Welcome Garrett. Garrett Mehrguth (Guest): Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. And yeah, excited to chat about search. Garrett and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Yeah, I love, I love getting into nerdy marketing topics, so I'm really excited about this. Before we dive in though, can you please tell my audience a little bit about yourself and your story and also Directive? About Garrett and Directive Garrett: I'd love to. I did my degree in three years in economics and I wanted to do my masters in a year. I was playing soccer. I thought I was going to go pro, be like a pro soccer player. I hurt my knee, and that kind of reset a lot of that stuff. And so I said, "Hey, you know, maybe I could try this consulting thing." I applied to Boston, Bain and McKinsey. I'm not sure about Deloitte, but kind of the big ones and instantly got this auto-response. In the application process, I knew I was doomed because you go to their portal and the university I attended was not one of the options. I was like, "They do not tell you that before they take your money." So from there I was like, "You know what? I'll just build my own agency and they'll have to acquire me." I don't know why. That's how I thought, and was just like where I went. I had no tangible skills, so there was that problem. I have this belief system that perception is reality and I knew that people perceived I knew the internet and so I figured I should learn it. So I started to try to learn how to do WordPress sites. And then I got this little shwarma shop in East LA. I was on my little moped. I had a 78 Peugeot 103. I was going around town on that thing and I essentially got the client. It was really, really small. I don't even remember because I was so bad at this point that I didn't put the amount in the contract. I still have the contract, but I don't remember the amount. It's probably like 200 bucks. I did that for 30 days, came back on the 30th day to get the check. He said come back tomorrow. The whole place was boarded up. So that was our first client. I was selling $5 social media calendars on Fiverr and I was just hustling and doing all this stuff. And then I got a hookah shop and the hookah shop asked me to build them a website and then I did that. It was okay. Looking back at, it wasn't the best website. And then he wanted to rank number one for hookah shop and all that stuff. I said, "All right, I'll try." I've never done it before. So I went online, read everything on Search Engine Land, Moz, WordStream, Search Engine Journal, teaching myself kind of SEO and PPC. I ranked him number one and all of a sudden you got all these people in a shop and it was completely dead before. I was like, "This is kind of cool." So, one of my best friends who's my roommate said, "Hey, don't go to law school. You know, come join this company with me. We'll be millionaires" or whatever he said. I was paying him $3 an hour at this point. So we kind of just started from there and now we get to work with really large enterprise accounts and mid market companies, mostly SaaS, doing SEO and PPC still. So pretty fun. Kathleen: Great. Now one of the things that I think is interesting about the perspective that you bring -- and we've had lots of people on the podcast talk about SEO and PPC,  I was interested to chat with you because you do have these bigger clients and I think there are pros and cons to that, right? The pro -- having owned an agency myself -- the pro of having big clients is they've got big budgets. They've got teams to support getting work done. They are generally very savvy. One of the -- I don't know if I would call it a con -- but the tough thing about accounts like that is very often, they've already done all of the basic things that they should be doing. They're sharp, they know their stuff, they have their act together, so being able to really show results and traction requires taking things to a much more advanced level. As I think you were saying when we first started talking, you've already squeezed most of the juice out of that orange. So how are you finding those opportunities for the last few drops? You had some interesting thoughts on that and I'm really interested to hear what you have to say and to get into that technical level of detail with you. What do top SEOs do to prevent traffic from plateauing? Garrett: Let's do it Kathleen. So first and foremost, it's such a blessing because I got lucky. Everyone gets lucky, I think, in business to get somewhere. I had no capital. I started this thing with 20 bucks. We have no debt. We have no anything, right? I think we got Allstate when I was like 23 to 25 years old. And we've had them ever since. Right? So there's little moments like that. Or, we did the global SEO for Cisco when I was 26, I think. So like, you get these little moments and they really help you. And obviously you have to deliver, right? And then you can scale that. But one of the things that I think allowed us to be successful regardless of who we were working with, whether it was a Series A startup who was trying to go to the moon, or a mid-market SaaS firm that was trying to go after the market leader, or the market leader, right? You have these kind of three groups to work with and they all need to slow down and reframe how they approach the idea of search. And that's what I think Directive is really special at, is taking a moment to say, how does your customer discover the products or services you sell, and how can we rethink our approach? So here's what we do. We have two kinds of fundamental beliefs. First and foremost, if you can eat enough humility as an SEO and say that my brand is more important than my website, you become an incredibly powerful and creative marketer. So our first fundamental belief at Directive is your brand is more important than your website. What that means tactically is that when someone searches at the bottom of the funnel and has the strongest purchase intent, you need to make sure you're discoverable. Now, the old adage was, you need your website to rank, but see something has changed in consumer behavior. I call this the Yelp and the Amazon effect. See, consumers got trained at the transactional level that even before we spend $3 on a lollipop or on a breakfast burrito, we're going to look on Yelp to see the reviews. Well, guess what? Before we buy quarter million dollar software, we definitely look at reviews. See, Google caught onto this and they started to change the types of websites that they were showing when there was bottom of funnel purchase intent for SaaS. That's G2, Capterra, Software Advice, PC Mag. It goes down for days and hours, right? There's all these review sites. Well if you search your primary keyword, let's say "ERP software", and you layer it with "top", "best" or "reviews" or "comparisons", you have purchase intent. Also your most expensive cost per click and Google ads, all the sites are review sites. That's because Microsoft Dynamics has no SEO. That's not because Oracle has no authority or content. That's because Google is choosing to show these types of websites. So if we take that fundamental approach that our brand is more important than our website, we can be hyper successful. Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense. And I've noticed that, too, with reviews. Over the years I've spoken with some other review sites that you mentioned. They've pitched me when I've been at different places and it's really fascinating to just do those searches. And you're right, if you do it -- if you search those terms -- those are the sites that will absolutely come up first. So when you consider that you need to appear on review sites, how do you go about tackling that? Because it's not as simple as just claiming your presence and setting up your profile. You can still get lost in the sea of companies that have done that. How to leverage review sites to drive traffic Garrett: The first step we want to do is we want to take another fundamental hypothesis and understand it, which is that sometimes your marketing metrics have an inverse correlation to your financial metrics. And it becomes very, very, very dangerous for SaaS firms. So here's what I mean. Most agencies have this belief that in order to generate more MQLs for the demand gen team at a SaaS organization, they need to essentially increase the amount of keywords they rank for. They need to start going to top of funnel and they need to generate more leads. So what happens when organizations pursue what I call a "breadth approach" is they start to experience what's called in economics diminishing marginal returns. In other words, their marketing KPIs improve. So let's say you're trying to go for "top ERP software", but you just have a Google ad running. Instead of saying, "How can I show up more often when there's purchase intent?" and going with depth -- and so essentially expanding search impression share in Google ads for your primary terms that have purchase intent and then ranking on individual review sites through their cost per click models, and then evaluating all of that at a cost per demo level, not cost per lead level, and then doing financial allocation, right? That's what we do here. We focus first on demand capturing before pivoting to demand generation. So we go to the bottom of the funnel and say, "Cool. When there's purchase intent, we're going to show up as often as possible and as many places as possible before we try to show up for more terms." So this allows us to experience increasing marginal returns for our clients in the first two quarters and get buy-in. See, what most people do, is they start to go with their Gartner report and they start to leverage that, which isn't an intrinsically a bad idea. But when they start to essentially go after informational intent and go to the top of funnel, they start to lower their cost per lead, they start to increase conversion rate and they think they're winning. But if you're a savvy growth operator in SaaS, you know, like for example, I convert at 60% on lead gen ads on LinkedIn. Okay, target market giving me their information -- 60%. I get that all the way down to $17 a week. Yet that is 17 X more expensive than buying that same lead from ZoomInfo, and I have no greater purchase intent than someone essentially downloading an asset or me buying them from ZoomInfo. So now I'm paying 17 X on a cost per lead. And so that's the diminishing part where your marketing numbers look better, but your revenue doesn't increase because you have horrible CAC-LTV on top of funnel versus bottom of funnel. And so that's kind of the other approach, is putting everything through an LTV-CAC model and then focusing on bottom of funnel first. Start at the bottom of the funnel and capture high intent leads Kathleen: So let's, let's dig into that a little bit. So you talked about starting at the bottom of the funnel and going really deep to capture high intent leads for very specific terms. If I came to you and I said, "All right, let's go. I want to do that," can you walk me through what that looks like? You mentioned showing up as often as possible for that one, high intent term. Garrett: Yeah. So first we're going to do what's called category defining. So we need to find your category. One of the most difficult problems in SaaS, as most people approach it, is they want to create their own category or they exist as a subset of an existing category. You have a lot of experience in cybersecurity, correct? Kathleen: Yep. Garrett: We do a lot there as well. So like we've been working with SentinelOne for a long time and other large players in that space. Now that's endpoint protection, right? People know they need a security solution, they don't always intrinsically know they need an endpoint solution. Right? So how do you generate demand and increase MQLs if you're in a new category? Okay, so first we do what's called category definement. And what we'd like to do is not only position you in endpoint, but position you in the security software category and then do hyper product differentiation through like product naming conventions and positioning, so that your CTO or whoever that person is who's your audience, they're searching and when they go to security software, we want them to show up above the fold with your brand as endpoint protection and then essentially drive awareness from the greater category to our subset or our pain solving product. So that's kind of first step is define that category. Then we ask ourselves, are we above the fold? So on Capterra, when you land on that, do you have to scroll for a couple hours to find you? How many reviews do the top five have versus you? That gives us a review target. Then we'll help you and say, "Here's how we've seen other clients go about getting reviews and here's the strategy you could pursue." Now we have a competitive amount of reviews on all of our categories. Kathleen: Let me ask you a question about that real quick. Most of those review sites have, uh, call them packages that you can purchase where they will, you know, you give them your list of clients, they'll email them, offer them an Amazon gift card or something along those lines to get reviews. And so essentially there's a cost per acquisition model that you can use. Do you find in most cases that that's worth doing, or do you work with your clients to develop their own outreach and review generation campaigns? Garrett: That's totally worth doing. I think there's nothing more important than other people advocating for your product, especially with how consumer behavior has changed at the B2B and B2C level. So no, that's critically important. Now, what we need to be able to do here though, is we need to be able to measure everything on a cost per opportunity, cost per demo, cost per proposal -- whatever you want to call it -- level, not a cost per lead. What we've found across over 350 SaaS companies that we've worked with over the last five years is that the cost per lead between Google Ads, Capterra, G2, Software Advice, et cetera, has a really, like it's not that different, maybe 15 to 30% range between each. But then I found that third party review sites have a 230% lower cost per opportunity. And so what we do, like, we got hired a couple of years ago by a publicly traded sales compensation software company and within one quarter we increased their demos by over 300% by only pivoting budget. That's the craziest part of all this, is most people are still evaluating their demand generation at an MQL level, not at an opportunity level. And so the biggest, easiest thing you can do is go one step further and look at opportunity. And then the furthest step that we've now actually evolved to as an agency is putting all our clients in LTV-CAC models, and then looking at activation rate. So not cost per trial but trial activations, right? So how well people are going from trial to demo, or demo to close rate, and then we're evaluating channels by close rate or by trial activation rate. And when we start to do that, that's hugely powerful for for financial allocation. How can you use intent data to drive traffic and revenue? Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense. Now one of the other questions I had as I was listening to you talk about this, you talked about intent and bottom of the funnel and a lot of those platforms that you mentioned, in addition to being able to purchase a package and drive reviews, now they're selling their own intent data. Are you also working with intent data and taking it and creating ABM or audience match campaigns around that for your clients? Garrett: Yeah, so you can do a lot of that stuff. I think we, like most people, are using that engagement data or enriching stuff with Bombora for sales dev. Right now, if you do traditional ABM with account based advertising, so let's say Radius, Terminus, DemandBase, Madison Logic, Listen Loop, I mean we use Terminus personally internally. Now the reason is, is we need to be able to do cookie-based targeting, not IP-based targeting. Because, for example, right now, if you're trying to run IP-based targeting campaigns during COVID, you're not reaching any of your audience. Kathleen: Oh, you are preaching to the choir, because the product that we sell incorporates IP obfuscation. So anybody using our products, you couldn't target them by IP. I think it's going to happen more and more, and more people are going to use tools like that. Garrett: Yeah. I think to answer your question, yes, we are doing bi-directional syncs from HubSpot, Marketo, Pardot or Salesforce into our ad platforms. But you still have a really poor match rate because people are using personal emails on social because they don't want to get fired from their company and their LinkedIn goes down. So, essentially what happens is, your match rate is really poor on social because the only one who still has firmographics after the whole Cambridge analytical debacle, -- because you've got Axiom data in Facebook and you can be really powerful there. Twitter has always been crap, but essentially GDN is terrible right now unless you're doing managed placements, you're actually going in a search engine results page and then searching keywords and then finding every site that ranks in the top five for your keyword that uses GDN and then doing targeted URL placements That works because it comes off as a native ad. But then other than LinkedIn, it's not working. But then LinkedIn fails because there's no purchase intent and the CPA is too high. And so what we're finding is the way we're doing LinkedIn is awareness, with text ads and spotlight ads. And that's actually working. But there's a lot of nuance in all that for sure. How to use LinkedIn ads to raise brand awareness Kathleen: So then you're generating awareness on LinkedIn and are you hoping effectively that that'll get somebody to go to the client's website? Then, you can retarget them on other platforms? Garrett: We're actually being a little bit humbler than that because I don't think I can control my user. And what I mean by that is, the click through rate is crap on LinkedIn. In fact, it's so bad for spotlight and text ads and we've tricked it and we've figured out a game. So we run brand campaigns for our clients and for ourselves based on what I call "clarity." It's this concept of saying what you do and who you do it for, and being humble enough to know that you have to get your message across without the click. So what we do is we actually do it on a cost per click level on LinkedIn and we're able to deliver because nobody clicks. What happens is LinkedIn accelerates our impressions and gives us a much lower CPM when I do CPC, than when I do CPM on LinkedIn. And then we personify everything. This is the biggest trick to LinkedIn. So you take your primary asset, let's say "The Ultimate Guide to Demand Generation", and then you turn it into "The VP's Guide to Demand Generation", "The CMO's Guide to Demand Generation", and "The Marketing Manager's Guide to Demand Generation." All you have to do is change the cover page and then run lead gen ads and we're converting at over 50% across the board. So there's that route. And then the awareness campaigns and the text ads and spotlight ads, you're on a CPC level and then you focus on what you do and who you do it for, and then you personify that. You put that all together and you have really, really cool awareness campaigns. And then I say, spend as much money as you're willing to never stop losing. And if you take that approach and you say, "Look, are you willing to spend $5,000 a month until you die and not know what it does for you?" Because I'll tell you right now, I can target your exact audience to perfection and deliver your message to them till you've decided you're done with this organization. "Are you okay 'wasting' five grand a month so that every person in your audience on LinkedIn knows who you are?" Yeah. The trick is to not get results. Because what happens is, people go into it thinking they'll get results and they pause before they ever could have gotten results through a brand campaign. And so when you take the other approach, it works really well. Kathleen: Yeah. That's a really interesting way to think about it. I would love to be a fly on the wall as you have those conversations with clients to be like, you know, "You're going to spend all this money and I'm not going to show you any quantifiable results from it, but you're going to have to believe that the results are there." It's like playing the long game and having faith. Garrett: Yeah. Do you believe that this is your exact persona on LinkedIn? Here's your exact title, firmographic, industry, size of account, revenue...do you believe that? Yes. Do you believe that your message is valuable enough to communicate it to them on a consistent basis? Yes. Cool. How much does your company spend on snacks? Kathleen: Give up the jelly beans and advertise on LinkedIn! Garrett: Yeah. Honestly, it's the frappuccino a day is the kind of the joke I make. What's your coffee budget? Cool. Could you spend that on this and never stop it? And it usually gets some pretty good buy-in. How to optimize your website for traffic Kathleen: That's a really interesting way to think about it. Do you do anything with your clients in terms of what they should be doing on their own site to support all of this? You talked about how it's not necessarily about everybody getting to your website, and how the brand is more important, but I would think that there are still some things they need to be doing on the site to provide supportive content and other assets that you can then use to go out and have success on these other platforms. Garrett: Yeah, that's a relative statement to shock people to think differently. It's not that your website's not important. It's that your brand truly is more important than your website. You really have to understand your brand is more important than it was. Now your website is obviously critical, so what you need to be able to do is communicate who you are and who you're for and what you do for them. We do custom landing pages here. We have a really strong conversion rate optimization team. And so all that review site stuff I'm telling you about, we're split testing two custom landing pages with messaging, calls to action and what I like to call psychological friction tests. So the biggest issue right now in all of SaaS that they could change if they listened to this, is changing their call to action. Almost universally it's "request a demo." There is nothing more psychologically friction than "request a demo." Every time I speak to an audience, and I get to speak about 30 to 40 times a year at conferences, I love to ask, who here likes to do a demo? Who here likes to have a day of demos? Nobody raises their hand. Kathleen: That's like saying, "Who here likes to sit through an hour long webinar?" Garrett: Yeah, and so when I ask them, I said, what if you did something really simple? What if you change it from request a demo to watch demo video? You still gated it. You still sent that lead to sales development or your account executives, but you are asking yourself, can I give my visitor something of equal or greater value to what they're giving me? That's the number one question with calls to action and demand generation is, am I giving someone something of greater value than they're giving me? When someone requests a demo, they fill out a form and nothing happens and it says "Someone from our team will contact you in 24 hours." You're not doing it. So what we always do, and we can take clients universally from around 2 to 3%, to over 10% conversion rates by simply doing watch demo video. And then all we do is have a form that says "Fill this out and we're going to give you a five minute demo video so that you can have a better educated sales conversation when we follow up." Close rates go up, activation goes up, sales development teams are begging for these leads because they're having product conversations, not like "who we are and these lame 30 minute intro slides" to finally get to price. It works universally, exceptionally well. So that's what we do on the website level. But when it comes to content, and I think that's kind of where you're headed with this, is like what do you do with that content engine? Are you familiar with HubSpot's pillar content approach that everybody's following? I think it's a bad approach, financially. The reason I believe it's a bad approach financially, it's due to what I was communicating earlier. HubSpot's approach is you take a really, really beautiful strong asset, and then you lead to that asset with other types of content clusters that support that and you essentially do lead generation through that asset. I say, do that same thing but with features. Here's an example. We do our own SaaS products at Directive to make sure that we're not just full of crap. Not enough people do that. We rank in the top five for all our keywords. We actually spend a ton of money on PPC and we try to actually test everything and our hypotheses on ourselves. What we're doing right now is, we have an educational product called Institute. This teaches our clients and we give to our clients free of charge because we believe that education drives adoption. As consultants, you don't need to only make recommendations, you need clients to adopt them, right? And so we need to educate them as to why. So we educate them on SEO, PPC, et cetera. We sell it to the market for $39 a month. It teaches people how we do what we do, all our templates, our approach, et cetera. We have 40 lessons. So I'm asking myself, at a $39 a month product, my CPA, my cost per lead is too high to do a ton of paid acquisition. So how can I drive organic leads from my product? So here's my strategy and I'll share with your audience because hopefully it can help them. I'm taking the top five to 10 keywords for every one of my lesson pages. So, "how to do Google ads" or "how to do keyword research for PPC", okay? So then I put "keyword research for PPC" into a keyword research tool. Now I take the top five questions people ask around that. Now I'm going to use entity tools like Clearscope or Content Harmony or something like that to really understand what I need to write here to rank. So then I write five articles all around that one lesson. Then, above the fold on all five articles, I link to that lesson and say "Want to learn how to do it with video?" and come up with an offer that resonates with where they're at in intent. In other words, they intend to learn this. That's why they're searching it. I can satisfy that intent with my product feature, AKA my lesson. And now I also create a content cluster. So all of these content pieces around this topic are internally linking back to my lesson page, which I'm trying to rank at the bottom of the funnel. And so I'm using middle and top of funnel content with lead gen assets all internally linking and with magnets essentially generating leads for my product. So instead of trying to generate informational intent leads, I'm trying to generate purchase intent leads. So their hypothesis of what they want to do with content clusters works for HubSpot. The issue is that getting someone from informational intent to purchase intent is incredibly long and most marketing people won't survive their tenure if they're only focused on driving informational intent leads. So we try to pivot everything to purchase intent. Does that make sense? Kathleen: Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is basically the product page on your site effectively as the pillar. Garrett: Yup. Turning product pages into content pillars Kathleen: The same exact approach applies only you're not writing a 4,000 word guide. You're creating the product page. Garrett: Yeah. You just audit all the competitors in the industry to say, "Okay, how many words do I need on my product page to rank? How many internal links do I need? How many referring domains do I need?" And then you say, "Cool, now I'm going to create the entity, the topical understanding to Google that we're the best answer to the questions people have related to the product we sell." And then when you do that whole approach, you're amazing at what you can do when driving MQLs and demos at the bottom of funnel. What should your SEO strategy look like if you're just getting started? Kathleen: So one of the things we talked about when when you and I first chatted about this was that, you work with a lot of big companies and they're coming to you and saying, "We're already doing a lot right. How can you take us to the next level?" But then there is this other school of thought that, if you have, let's say a startup or a new company or a company launching a new product, they have this opportunity to do it right from the beginning -- to greenfield it. Paint a picture for me of what that looks like. You're starting a new company and you want to really ace it out of the gates. Garrett: First and foremost, I'm going to look at all the review sites and ask myself how many reviews I need to be perceived as a market leader. It's the coolest thing in the world, right? Because someone searches now "top whatever software" you sell, and a review site shows up. You don't actually have to be the best! You might not be because you've only been in the game for a couple of months. But if you can get the reviews there, you look like you're the best and that's 99.9% of marketing. So first and foremost, we're going to position ourselves to be discoverable. When there's purchase intent, we're going to focus on demand capture, okay? Because to rank our website as a new organization, we don't have the authority, link profile or content, and investing in all those things takes a large financial upfront investment and has a long runway -- probably two years to build that organic engine. So if you have a 24 month runway to build your organic engine and you need MQLs now, the easiest thing to do is paid SEO. Now with that being said, we don't want to wait two years to try to rank because now we have another two years to get there, right? So we need to start from the beginning to try to position ourselves organically, to lower our cost per acquisition and have a better CAC-LTV ratio. So what do we do? We are going to say, when someone searches for your product or your features, we're going to try to create as much bottom of funnel content as possible. So not only a product page, but a feature page and solution pages. These are saying when someone has pain that your product solves and they go to discover that, can we show up? Perfect. Next what we're going to do is, we're going to start with our link building. So one of the things I had to do at Directive is, before we niched into SaaS, we were niched into just B2B. We had a lot of like manufacturers like Pelican Cases and stuff like that. So we had a lot of B2B players as well. So I couldn't rank for the keyword "B2B SEO", but I wanted to. I didn't have enough authority. My site wasn't large enough. It just wasn't going to happen. So what I did is I went on Search Engine Journal and I wrote, or Search Engine Land, I think it was, a fresh perspective on B2B SEO. In other words, I used someone else's site to rank for my keyword and they control the narrative. So with a startup, what you're gonna want to do is, you're going to go on CIO or Tech Crunch and instead of just bragging about how much money you raised, you're going to want to actually try to position yourself for what your buyer journey is like. We're going to leverage these other third party sites to do what's called guest posting to then rank exceptionally well for these top of funnel queries while internally linking from those guest posts back to our bottom of funnel pages we already built so that we can once again increase our rankings for purchase intent. So you can actually win at the bottom of funnel faster than people realize because nobody's product pages naturally build links. So if you do a really aggressive link building strategy early, using guest posting where you can control the anchor text and the destination URL to point to bottom of funnel pages, you can grow. And so then from that guest posting for bottom of funnel, now we'll focus on those products, kind of clusters we were talking about and our blog strategy, as well as Google ads review sites. And next thing you know, you're 24 months later, you might have one of the best imagine engines in the whole entire industry because you did it right. How to get executives and subject matter experts to create content Kathleen: Love it. One of the pieces of pushback I hear often, especially when you're a startup and you don't have a huge team where often your CEO or your CTO are the primary thought leaders and they're busy, I hear a lot of "Oh, we don't have the time to do all that writing." Any tips for how you can get the goods out of their heads and onto paper in a way that's efficient and scalable? Garrett: Yeah, the most scalable, best link building and PR you can possibly do is exactly what I'm doing right now. Podcasts. There's zero preparation for the thought leader. It takes exponentially less time and you have a much more engaged audience than an article. The best part is, when you guest post and you pitch a guest post, your success rate isn't always as high because not everybody accepts guest posts. Not everybody cares what you have to say. Sometimes editors are busy. On the flip side, the entire podcast content medium is guest dependent. So Kathleen's job is to secure interesting, engaging hosts for her audience. And so when you pitch Kathleen, you're going to have a much higher success rate than if you pitched Kathleen blog articles because now Kathleen has to edit your blog. She might not agree with your opinions because blogs aren't intrinsically the same format as podcasts. They're not op-ed like podcasts are. And so the best thing SaaS companies can do right now is link-building via podcast, hands down highest success rate, most scalable, easiest ended up. Kathleen: I totally agree, but I will say please, for the love of all that is Holy, take two minutes and learn something about the podcast and what it's about and tailor your pitch. I get pitched a lot, by a lot of podcast booking agents. Generally they're pretty good at doing their homework. But I can't tell you how often I get pitched from people who are like, "So-and-so built his real estate empire and can talk about earning money and like changing your life." And I write back and I'm like, "What does this have to do with inbound marketing? This person sounds like an amazing entrepreneur, but that's not what my podcast is about." Garrett: I'd say we have over a 75% success rate. So I'd give your audience some tips on how they can pitch. Get their name right. I know it sounds simple. Write a subject line that doesn't stink. Everything should be about how you make the podcast host's life easier and better for their audience. What I mean by that is there's a really important word when you do outbound or pitching. You say, "I am emailing you because", and that quickly allows someone to know why. And then you hit them with why the audience cares, not about yourself. So a lot of people like to say, "Hey, you know, my client, uh, built his agency from one to $10 million, you know, would love to be a guest on your show. He's been featured by Forbes, Tech Crunch, in the Inc 5,000." And then the podcast host goes, "Who cares?" Right? Compared to saying, "I'm emailing you because I'd love to talk with your audience about a topic that I know they care about, that I happen to be an expert in. Here's three different topics I think your audience might be interested in. Do any of these resonate with you?" Ideally, you want your podcast host to just say "Yes, this one". And then that's all the preparation required and you're good to go and it works. Kathleen: Yeah, I totally agree. At the last two companies I've been in, it's been a part of my strategy to get my CEO as a guest on podcasts. It's so much easier than trying to get them to write blogs. I think there's a human connection element of, you hear the person's voice, you get to know their personality, that that draws you in so much more than written content can do. So there's that aspect of it too. Garrett's advice Kathleen: Well, any other last words of advice that you think my listeners should know about related to this topic? Garrett: I guess one of the blessings we have with our portfolio is we have a lot of first party data. So I guess some encouragement. Since March 1st I wanted to look at what happened across our portfolio. Spend is down 24%, but conversions are down only 18% because click through rates are up, CPCs are down and conversion rates are up. So here's the really cool part about cost per click advertising is that it scales with demand and doesn't create waste. In fact, at a unit economic level, your advertising is actually more efficient now than it was before. Is volume down? Yes. But also auction competitiveness is down. See, all CPC advertising and all channels is based on an auction. It's based on inventory. It's like an economic model. Supply and demand. Well, because fewer advertisers are advertising right now, you're actually able to satisfy the existing demand that does still exist for whatever product or service you sell at a lower rate and you will have better efficiency and effectiveness in your advertising right now than you did before. That's just at the ad level. It's not necessarily the close rate level or at the volume level. But just at the actual cost per click and cost per acquisition level, it's actually much more efficient right now to advertise, which is kind of cool. That's across over $1 million in spend. Kathleen: That makes sense. So don't give up your ad budget altogether. Garrett: Just to meet demand. But remember your ad budget will do that intrinsically. So as long as you're not spending a ton on display and CPM type stuff, you're going to find a ton of efficiency on CPC because fewer people are advertising, thus lowering your cost per click, and there are some people out there buying and you want to make sure you're discoverable to those people. So it's a kind of a cool way to still win right now. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Absolutely. All right, well switching gears, I have two questions I always ask all of my guests and I'd love to hear what you have to say about these. The first is, this podcast is all about inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or individual that you think is really killing it right now with inbound who my listeners could go check out as an example? Garrett: I mean, HubSpot's a monster at this. They still are. I know. And everybody knows that. Kathleen: I'm going to make you tell me someone besides HubSpot though. Garrett: I know, I know, I know. The thing is, it's a lot harder now to move somebody out of a top 10 ranking. And so you see a lot of people pivoting away from that old school, gated content theory of inbound. And so that's why off the top of my head, I can't think of someone who's like doing that part of it exceptionally well because the game's kinda changed.  Kathleen: Who do you think is killing it with marketing right now in general? Garrett: I always like what is Zoom is doing? Because I liked what they did with like offline advertising and I think that's so cool. I think they're really creative in the sense of thinking about how to position themselves. I love the organizations that are investing heavily in podcast ads. For myself, that's one of my highest performing channels is niche-based podcast ads. I advertise on almost all the SEO or PPC podcasts that I can find because it works exceptionally well at a low CPM. I like the D2C stuff. I think the D2C people are kicking B2B butt. Like Baboon to the Moon. I love their branding. I think if B2B had a little bit more boldness like this... Kathleen: Yeah. What did they, I've never heard of them. I'll have to check them out. Garrett: So yeah, if you want to see somebody who I think is brilliant and actually has a brand opinion and stance and is hyper creative and out there -- Baboon to the Moon. Drift gets way too much credit for it because I don't actually think they're that good at it from a branding standpoint. They just have a free product so it's a lot easier to act like you're doing really good at it. They like try to take the human side of positioning. I think Baboon is doing something really cool because they're taking a hyper creative approach and it's like they're on acid. It's like a goldfish on a human's body using their product, but it's brilliant because they are so consistent with it in their messaging, copy, and creative that it actually creates a brand theme that I don't recognize in B2B. I think B2B organizations need to do a better job creating a brand theme. Like for us at Directive, we're trying to do a lot of people in our branding, but instead of just doing people in our branding, we're also like labeling them with their titles and their names so that it's so people know it's not a stock photo. So we're trying to bring it to life. We can obviously do it a lot better. We're not nearly as creative as that, but I think if B2B looks at the direct to consumer brands that are doing so well right now, at the end of the day it's very similar if you have a self onboarding SaaS company to a D2C product. It's very still transactional. And so if you can take your self onboarding, your trial-based SaaS company, and do that, and take that DDC stuff, and build that brand guide and just be really bold and crazy and ambitious with it, I think it'll pay off. Kathleen: Yeah, that's, and you need to have leaders within the company that are willing to take a risk and be different. There's a lot of sameness in general in marketing and I think when everybody else is going right and you go left, there's a lot of opportunity there. Garrett: Oh, a trillion percent. It's hard to get that buy in. I mean, I don't know anyone in my portfolio is actually doing it. That's why I'm in my head trying to think. It just starts at the top. You just need a CEO and a board that supports a bold new direction, not just verbally, but actually, and really actually sees it all the way through, especially when they get that first negative feedback or whatever from someone who doesn't like it. Kathleen: Yeah. There are going to be people who don't like it, that's for sure. Garrett: B2B is terrified of making anyone feel anything. That's truth, right? They're terrified of if someone doesn't like something. And the point is, the worst marketing is marketing for everybody. And so if you can be bold enough to have people hate you or like you, that's when you actually have marketing. Kathleen: I totally agree with you. All right. Second question. The biggest pain point I hear from marketers is that trying to stay on top of the changing landscape of digital marketing is like drinking from a fire hose. And so I'm curious how you personally stay up to date and educate yourself on all of that. Garrett: I think it's actually less important to stay up to date with things than people think, and here's why. Most marketers don't have a fundamental belief and a hypothesis of how they approach generating revenue for an organization. What's allowed myself and my organization to be successful is we have a fundamental belief that you need to make a brand discoverable at the bottom of the funnel regardless of channel. Now, the beauty of that is that it doesn't matter if digital marketing changes. See in 1997 when Google first came out, what was the whole point? People came to people and said, "Hey, I want to show up on this new search engine. How do I do it?" And the answer was, "Well, you need a website." See, the new answer is, "Well, you need reviews for your brand and you need to be positioned." As long as you don't get married to Capterra and G2, but get married to the idea of showing up when someone has purchase intent for what you sell, everything can change without changing anything because your fundamental belief is that you need to be discoverable when there's purchase intent. And so my encouragement to people is ground yourself in a fundamental belief of what you actually believe. It's such a critical part of marketing. If you want to make a ton of money in marketing, you need to actually have opinions. And you actually have to have beliefs and a hypothesis. You have to also be willing to adjust those, but you need to have them. And so I think if people have a real belief system and fundamental approach and then say we want to be essentially discoverable when there's purchase intent, that allows you to just naturally adjust whatever happens in the market because all you're doing is maintaining your belief. And that's, I think, what's so important for marketers, is to get away from this idea of, "Oh, what could I try? What new trick or hack can I try in a channel?" to say, "How can I essentially take my belief of discoverability and apply it to all my chanels?" When you do that, it allows you to stay really even keeled and focus on your customers. Kathleen: Yeah, and I would add to that, the best marketers I know in many cases are not actually marketers. You're a great example. You studied economics. The best marketers I know tend to be the most avid students of human behavior. People who understand people make great marketers because they're focused on the things that are timeless. It really doesn't matter what Google does with an algorithm because, honestly, Google is just trying to solve for people, right? So if you're focused on people and how they behave and how they buy, none of the bells and whistles matter. Garrett: Take that same person and then they learn financial modeling. Now you have the best CMOs in the world. People who have a really authentic, true belief of understanding of people and how they buy, and then they also understand financials? You put those two people together -- those are the CMOs of the Fortune 500. How to connect with Garrett Kathleen: Amen. I could go on and on about that. If somebody is listening and wants to learn more about some of this or has a question and wants to get in touch with y ou, what is the best way for them to connect with you online? Garrett: I'm active on Twitter. I'm @gmehrguth. So first initial, last name. I'm active on LinkedIn. Shoot me an email, it's just initial last name at Directive consulting. I'd love the chat and help anyone who has questions around demand gen. I'm pretty active on there trying to share all of our data and different tactics and things that we're doing. Almost daily I shared a new tactic or approach and a thread for essentially how SaaS markers can generate revenue. So if you're interested in that, feel free to follow and engage. Kathleen: Great. And I'll put all those links to Garett's social profiles and his email in the show notes. So head there to check that out if you want to connect with him. You know what to do next... Kathleen: If you're listening and you liked what you heard or you learn something new, I would greatly appreciate it if you would head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast a five star review. We talked a lot about reviews in this interview and we know how important they are, and they are equally as important for podcasts as they are for products. So take a minute and do that. That would mean a lot. And if you know somebody who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next interview. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Garrett. Garrett: Well, thank you Kathleen. Glad to be here.

Someone accused me today of sounding like I'm figuring out audio editing, and of being a very good interviewer. I'd like to publicly dispute that charge. I'm literally learning audio as I go. I'm teaching myself a brand new skill. And that's important for you to know. Because I'll bet you want to learn something yourself, or are interested in something but aren't sure how to start. Gather 'round, kids. I'm going to tell you some important shit: you don't have to know what you're doing to start doing it. As one of my life role models once said, "don't dream it; be it." I'm not great at this. By any means. But I'm getting decent downloads for a complete novice with no real skills to speak of. And when it comes to interviewing? I am still the world's most awkward host. Most. Awkward. Editing is a wonderful thing. And it still doesn't make me sound amazing. But I interview people even though I'm awkward. And it's basically the coolest thing I do in my life on a regular basis. You don't have to know how to do something to just start doing it. Go do those things you wanna do, and if you love doing them you're going to GET good at them because you won't wanna stop. Dream on, kids. But don't forget to wake up and do, too. Alright then. Good talk.Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/twomomsdaydrinking)

How does a marketer charged with helping tech companies and the blockchain industry simplify messaging and help his clients reach their audience? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Dennis Lewis of Greenlight Digital talks about the strategies he uses to market one of the most complex and misunderstood products in existence - cryptocurrency. The lessons that Dennis has learned as a marketer and cryptopreneur can help any marketer understand how to translate industry jargon or complex products and services into language and messaging that anyone can understand. In this interview, he shares his thoughts on customer research, storytelling, and striking the right balance between technical content and simple messaging. Highlights from my conversation with Dennis include: Dennis describes himself as a marketer and cryptopreneur. He says the blockchain is a decentralized bookkeeping system located all around the world, and being maintained by literally thousands and thousands of computers working synchronized. His company, Greenlight Digital, provides marketing services for technology and blockchain companies. He got into marketing blockchain when a friend of his did an initial coin offering (ICO) and asked him for marketing help. Dennis says that all marketing needs to start with the problem that a product or service solves for the customer. Unfortunately, entrepreneurs tend to fall in love with their products, and put that before understanding the customer. Dennis's mantra is "listen, think, and do" and he says that marketers should heed those three words. One of the more impactful books he's read is The Culture Code by Clotaire Rapaille. The book talks about the three brains that every human being has: the reptilian brain, the limbic brain, and the cerebral cortex. All decisions are made by the reptilian and the limbic brains. The cerebral cortex is used to justify the decision you've already made. Marketing needs to feed the reptilian and limbic brains by forming an emotional connection, and the best way to do this is through effective storytelling. There are many ways that marketers can learn more about their customers, from doing focus groups, to researching what they are saying on online forums, or even inviting a customer to coffee. The most important thing in marketing is to assure your customer that they won't look bad or be embarrassed due to their decision to buy your product. In addition to having strong messaging, your brand needs to stand for something. That is the most effective way to differentiate from the competition. Resources from this episode: Visit the Greenlight Digital website Connect with Dennis on LinkedIn Follow Dennis on Twitter Get Dennis's book Behold the Cryptopreneurs Visit the Cryptopreneurs Club Listen to the podcast to learn more about simplifying the messaging for complex products and services, and how, if done right, it can help you get better marketing results. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and this week my guest is Dennis Lewis, who is a cryptopreneur and blockchain marketing specialist with Greenlight Digital. Welcome Dennis. Dennis Lewis (Guest): Hey Kathleen. Thank you for having me on. Dennis and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on because I'm actually weirdly fascinated with cryptocurrency and the blockchain, but I think maybe not everyone is quite as nerdily interested in that as I am, so maybe you could just start by explaining what a cryptopreneur is. I don't know if I'm going to try to have you explain what the blockchain is because that might be biting off more than we can chew, but give my guests a sense of what it is you're working on. What is a cryptopreneur? Dennis: Sure. So, I mean, let's go ahead and try and bite off a little bit here at least so that we can give everybody kind of something to wrap their heads around. The blockchain isn't really all that complicated as it may seem. Like most technology sectors, the people in the industry tend to really kind of dive into all of the plumbing and the complications of it. Sure, we could certainly throw out a whole bunch of weird sounding words to make it sound complicated, but it's really just a bookkeeping system. It's just a way of keeping track of transactions that is decentralized. It's all around the world being maintained by literally thousands and thousands of computers working synchronized, but you know, no single point of failure. That's in a nutshell what a block chain is. It is a decentralized bookkeeping system. Kathleen: That is a great explanation and it totally ties in to what we're going to talk about today, which is a big challenge I think a lot of marketers have, particularly in these more technical industries, and that is simplifying the complex. About Dennis Lewis and Greenlight Digital Kathleen: Now before we do that, maybe you could talk a little bit about your journey. How did you wind up doing this, and what is Greenlight Digital? Dennis: Okay, sure. Well, it's funny, like all great things in life, I got into this industry just by accident. It wasn't a planned event. It wasn't enormously prepared either. A friend of mine called me up one day and said, "Hey, we're going to do this thing called an ICO where we're going to try and raise some money. We don't know anything about marketing. Can you help us?" And I knew absolutely nothing about cryptocurrency at the time or blockchain and I didn't even know what an ICO was, And like the brave soul that I am, I just rolled up my sleeves and said, "sure, let's do it." That's where the journey began with blockchain. Rolling back farther, because there's some gray hairs on my head, a long time ago I worked for IBM. I spent my whole career sort of trying to make things that most people think are complicated, make them easy to understand. And I realized that that isn't a skill that is very common. A lot of people are really good at making simple things complicated, but going the other way around it seems to be less frequent. That's why I'm excited today to talk to you about making the complex simple. As far as Greenlight Digital, that's my company. We are a boutique marketing agency. We do everything from content marketing, to social media, to working with companies on their branding and their messaging, full suite sort of marketing, mostly for tech companies and blockchain companies, although we do work with some traditional companies as well just to kind of keep us on our toes. That's pretty much what I do. I like to tell stories. Kathleen: I love it. And you really, I think, hit the nail on the head with marketing, which is that a lot of us, especially trained marketers, and this is so interesting to me, that tend to make things more complicated than they need to be. A lot of marketers really, really struggle with boiling things down and expressing the value of that thing they're trying to market in a way that is simple and easy for the audience to understand. So, this is one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you, because if you can do it in blockchain, I feel like you could do it in anything. Dennis: You're probably right there. You know, it's funny, but in our industry, marketing is so hooked recently on all of the plumbing, all of the technical part of marketing, which is awesome and it's interesting and it is important, but I always tell my customers, it all boils down to the words on the page. If you're not making a connection with the right person, if you're not saying the right thing to the right person, you can have all the bells and whistles that you want, it's not going to work. I'll take a step back and I'll go back. I remember that when I was back in the day at IBM, I remember going to conferences with big companies that IBM, they had, they were always doing the best, and there were always 50 presentations and they were always about the new version of product X, Y, Z, and these are the new features and these are the new... This is what makes this one better than it was before. And you could look out in the audience and see people dozing away. They were literally, I think it was the best cure for insomnia that's ever been invented, it's just send them to a tech conference and they'll sleep like babies. It really got me thinking, and I guess that's sort of where all this came, the problem is that it all boils down to what problem you're solving. If you're not making something better for somebody, then your features and your benefits and your whistles and your bells and your shiny stuff, it just is irrelevant. I mean, people just don't care. You always start with the problem. You have to start with the problem, and if you don't you'll go wrong. People just won't, they'll tune out. There's so much information out there right now. Gosh, I mean, how much time do you spend staring at Google Chrome every day? You know? And how many people are competing for that time of your eyeballs? And they're smart people, right? They're there, they're good at it. And if you want to kind of get your fair share of those moments of those eyeballs, you really have to be interesting. It has to be engaging in that. It has to be, and it has to talk to that problem because otherwise, what's in it for me? Kathleen: Yeah. Now, I totally agree with you, but I feel like that's much more easily said than done. Simplifying the messaging for complex topics Kathleen: So when you think about this challenge of simplifying the complex, and let's use the stuff you're working on now with cryptocurrency and blockchain, if you're working with a new client or something, how do you tackle that? Where do you begin with that process of trying to make it simpler and easier for an audience to understand? Dennis: Sure. So one of the things I've learned is that entrepreneurs always fall in love with their products. They fall in love with what they're doing. And that's great. That's normal. It's kind of what you have to do if you're going to build something. But I always tell them, "Look, you've got to fall in love with your customer first. You've got to put yourself in their shoes." Who are you serving? Who is the person on the other side and why would they care about what you're doing? Because if you think it's going to be everybody out there is going to fall in love with your product because you have, you're mistaken. They just don't care about your product. And I mean, they'll gladly give you money if you can make the pain go away, but if you can't make the pain go away, they couldn't care less how many hours, how many people, how much sophisticated technology you throw into the basket. That's your problem, that's not theirs. I always start there. I always say, "Look, you've got to focus on the person on the other side. It's always got to be about how you're making their lives better." And that could be by delivering a pizza quicker or it could be curing cancer. It's not necessarily that problems have to be big or they can be small, it's, they have to be real. They have to be something that somebody cares about and because otherwise, why are we doing this? As a marketer, and I know you've undoubtedly come across this as well, people frown on us. They think we're manipulators, they think we're tricking people into buying stuff when it should be all completely the other way around. If you've got a product that makes things better for your client, you'd be doing them a disservice not to tell them, not to try and get them to use it, not to try and get them to have access to that solution, you'd be a bad person. Kathleen: It is sort of depressing because I have seen stats that say that people, when they rank how much they trust different types of people, I think marketers ranked down there with used car salesman for how much people trust us, which is really depressing. I would like to think that we're not quite in that category, but maybe I'm underestimating the value of used car salesman. I don't know. Dennis: You got to be at the bottom of the list. Kathleen: Right. Exactly. No, you hit on something that I really agree with that and feel quite strongly about, which is that a lot of times when people talk about marketing, they talk about trying to sell things to people and I really think that marketers are more successful when they have this mindset shift and they think of it as, we need to help people to buy as opposed to try and sell them something. We are helping them to purchase something and we're doing it because that thing genuinely solves a problem for them. I think if you can shift your mindset in that way, it produces much better marketing. Understanding your customer's pain Kathleen: So you talked about needing to understand the pain that the customer is experiencing. How do you do that? Dennis: Well, I guess that the only way to do that, is like every human being does it, is by being empathetic, it's by listening. On all my emails, I always start with, I was in the same three words and it's kind of been my slogan for years and years and years and it's, "listen, think and do." The order of the three words is very important, it always starts with listening, and that's a lesson I learned from my grandma and I could tell you a good story about how I learned that lesson. Kathleen: I'm now very curious. Is it a quick one? Can we hear it? Dennis: It's not too long, sure. My grandma was an amazing woman, she died at 101 years old and she was smart as a whip. Up until the very end, she was winning at bridge. I remember being a little boy, and I was always a talkative little boy, and I remember she sat me down in the kitchen one day, she put this mirror in my hand. She said, "Dennis, look in this mirror and tell me what you see." I said, "Grandma, it's me. I am in the mirror." And she says, "Yeah, but tell me something specific. How many mouths do you see in that mirror?" I said, "Well, I've only got one mouth." And she said, "Now how many ears do you have?" I said, "Well, there's two ears Grandma, of course." And she said, "Well God made you that way on purpose." Kathleen: I love it. Way to go grandma. Dennis: Yeah. So yeah, it's all about listening. It's all about putting yourself in the shoes of the person. And sometimes that's easier said than done, but the way I see it is, there was a really a great book, it was called The Culture Code, by this French person, Clotaire Rapaille, I don't know, I can't even pronounce his name, but really good book, the Culture Code. In the book he talks about the three brains that every human being has. There's a reptilian brain, a limbic brain, and then there's the cerebral cortex, the brain, that kind of gray mass that we all think about when we say "Brains." In the book he says that all decisions are made by the reptilian and the limbic brains. The cerebral cortex is used to justify the decision you've already made. So kind of like when you're going to go buy a car, you're going to buy the car that you want. You're going to buy the car that you secretly know that you just want that car, but you're going to sit down and you're going to study it. You're going to look at a kazillion different factors so that you can feel justified that that's the car you're going to buy. But pretty much you've already figured it out, which car you're going to buy beforehand. He talks about that in the book. And so, you've got to have an emotional connection with your audience. You have to, it can't just be, "We're faster. We're more sophisticated. We do this better. We give you a better ROI. We give you..." All that is great. You need to do that in your marketing as well because you do need to feed that cerebral brain, but you've got to make the sale down deep. You've got to grab a bit, that's why great marketing always tells great stories. Kathleen: So you start by listening, I'm assuming, when you say that, you mean listening to customers or prospective customers, is that correct? Dennis: Yeah, that's right. And that could just be go out and read, go to the forums, look at how they talk, look at what they're talking about. It doesn't have to be super sophisticated. You don't have to have spend millions doing focus groups and all that stuff, which is great I'm sure. If you've got lots of resources, go ahead and do that, there's no doubt that that's a good idea. But there's a lot of ways, we have so much information now. Sit down and have a coffee with somebody that's in your target audience and try to figure out what motivates them. Why would they be interested in something that you do? Most of the time the motivations are often completely different from the answers. You have to read between the lines. If you're selling in a corporate B2B market, you know it. One of the most important things that you have to do is make sure that people understand that they're not going to look bad by buying your product. That they're not going to be embarrassed. Their boss isn't going to get mad at them later or say, "Look at what a bad decision you made." And those are objections that are real and they're emotional and that's a big part of B2B sales is developing that security for your customer. And those are the kinds of things you've got to listen to. Turning customer research into messaging Kathleen: Yeah. So if you've done this, if you've sat down and listened to customers and you understand some of the pain they're feeling, some of the problems they're trying to solve, how do you then take that and make it actionable? Dennis: I always take notes, because usually the words that your customers use are the words you ought to be thinking about using, and then you can get creative about it. But don't, don't try to be, you know, you never want to make it. Yeah, you don't want to, you don't want to fill your head with too much stuff, but make it simple. Try to spell out that pain and then say, "Hey, and I make it go away by doing this." And when you do that, people, if they have the pain, they'll listen. And if they don't, that's okay too. Part of it is just being willing to hear "no." Go for the no. I mean, I'd much rather have a conversation with somebody who comes out and says, "Nope, I don't need this." I think that's great. That's good. I mean, a no is much better than a maybe. How Dennis markets crypto Kathleen: In a technically complex industry like crypto, let's actually use some examples. You've done marketing in this industry, what have you learned as far as what the pain is or the problem is and how have you translated that into a more simplistic way of communicating about it? Dennis: We talked a little bit about the blockchain being a bookkeeping system and when I talk to people about in the industry they come and they say, "Oh, but our blockchain is faster, it's got a more sophisticated consensus algorithm. It uses better cryptography, it's more secure." And all of this stuff. And I say, "Yeah, but why don't we talk to them about how you can use it for healthcare. Why don't we talk to the users about how you can use it to make democracy better? Why don't we talk to them about how you can use it to make social media where you're not the product instead of what it is now where we're the product being sold? Okay?" These are ways of making the technology relevant, making it personal. Of course, I want the blockchain that where, the solution to be robust and fast and better than all the rest. That's great, and you'll get to that point, but that's not how you lead the conversation, because nobody's interested in that really. I mean, that should be a given, right? I remember Warren Buffet once said that, "The only problem with technology is that pretty soon everybody in the room, all your competitors have the same technology as you." He's really good at metaphors. He said, "At the beginning you stand up on your chair and you're the tallest person in the room, and then everybody else starts standing on the chair so you've got to go find a ladder." Kathleen: That's a great metaphor. I love it. Dennis: I always try to tell customers, you have to frame it in things that are important to the people that are listening. So sure, if I'm going to be talking to investors, well of course I want to appeal to their desire to pick the winner. It's maybe not a spreadsheet of, this is going to be a 13.8% ROI compared to a 10.4, right? I mean, come on, that's silly. But if you're talking to a VC company, what do they do? They're looking for the unicorns. They're looking for the projects that have the best possibility to shine, so talk about that, go there. If you're going to talk about if your product is really good at making micropayments, well talk about how this could be used in Africa to improve the lives of people in Africa. Make it something that people could visualize, that they can see, that they can feel. Because that's where you get people engaged. Tell a story. I really believe in stories as stories are really the the oldest part of humanity is telling stories. Yeah. When you sit down with somebody, it doesn't matter how hardheaded they are. If you look them in the eyes and say, "Look, I want to tell you a story." You can just watch people's defenses drop down, because everybody loves stories. So figure out a way to put your product into a story. Kathleen: That's a great suggestion. And I like that you, I mean I think you've been very clear and the top line messaging needs to lead with the benefits, not the features of the product or the outcomes that the audience will experience or the use cases. My experience has been that, that that is very effective and especially in grabbing attention. And then at some point in the sale there does come a moment when that buyer may want more technical information, or someone on their team may want more technical information. Dennis: Oh, definitely. Balancing the simple and the complex Kathleen: How do you handle that in terms of the way you do marketing? When is the time and the place for conveying the technical specs, if you will, versus that simplistic top line messaging? How do you strike that balance? Because I think you can also be too simple and frustrate your audience if they're not getting their questions answered when they're at that evaluation stage. So I'd love to know how you think about that. Dennis: That's great. I wish I had a golden rule. I'm almost tempted to just ask you, because you probably know a lot more than me. Kathleen: Don't bet on it. Dennis: My experience over a long time in this, and it's just that, it's not anything, it's not data-driven really, it's just gut feeling, is that most of the time we dig into the details too soon. That doesn't mean that you can just not dig into the details. There is a time, but you want to know that your customer really wants it before you give it to them. I think that's the deal because otherwise, how many times have you sent a beautiful proposal with 30 pages of, you've sweated all the details, and it ends in somebody's inbox and then crickets, right? You don't hear anything back. You've given them probably too many excuses to not buy from you. So, I don't know, there's a dance there. I wish there were a one size fits all solutions, but my gut is, is that people will get the information, that's part of having publishing content and making sure it's out there. People don't talk to us very soon anymore. It used to be that you would go out and you'd take customers out for lunch and that's where you'd start the process, right? Nowadays it's completely the other way around. When somebody actually comes to have a conversation with you, they've probably done an awful lot of research about it anyway. They probably know more about you than even you realize. Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely. I know, I've always thought about that question of like, when do you share technical information? I've always liked the approach that events and conferences take when they sell you on the notion that you need to be at the conference, and then they have the convince your boss letter, where they just acknowledge. They're just right up front and they say, "We know you need to convince your boss to spend the money, so here's a letter you can just hand to them, customize it for yourself and go." And it's a very kind of explicit acknowledgement of the dynamic that happens in the purchasing process, and I've always liked the idea of translating that and taking the convince your boss approach and applying it in other ways. So for example, I've worked with a lot of cybersecurity companies on their marketing and that dynamic exists in that industry too, where you have your less technical buyer, it could be risk officer, it could be somebody at a senior level in the organization who knows they need to keep it secure and they're concerned more from sort of a boardroom level that, "We're a secure company. We're not going to be at risk." But at some point in the buying process, some sort of analyst that's lower than them in the hierarchy of the company is going to be called in and asked to vet the product, and I've always liked the idea of having a convince your analyst packet where it's like, "Just hand this to your analyst. This is everything they need." Dennis: That's a really great strategy. I like that. Kathleen: Being that up front about it. I don't know, I mean I don't have enough proof to know that it works, but it seems to work in the conference and events world, so that's why I've always been intrigued. Dennis: But I think that comes back to what we were talking about at the beginning, the, what's the problem you're solving there? The problem you're solving for your buyer, who's your champion inside that organization is, they want to look good inside. They want to look good with their boss. They don't want to be called out because they missed something that was a glaring error and they want to feel that they'll be respected and their credibility will increase because of making this deal with you. What you're doing is you're making it easier for them to do that. You're saying, "Yeah, look, I understand." You know, you're not going to go up to somebody and say, "Hey, I'm going to help you not get fired by buying my product." But you've got to have that in your head right there. That's what they're thinking. You know, am I going to is this going to help me get my year end bonus? Is it going to make me look good? Am I going to get the next promotion because I did a good job on X, Y or Z? And by keeping those human aspects in mind and having that preparation where you can say, "Okay, yeah, I know you're going to need to, this is going to have to be bedded here. I've got this whole planned out for you." Show that you've really done your homework to get the vetting materials together. And then I've always thought that making other people look good is a really great strategy, not just for selling, it's just a good strategy in life. Kathleen: Yeah, make your customer the hero. Absolutely. Dennis: Yeah, definitely. Companies that have done a great job of simplifying their messaging Kathleen: Well, do you have any examples of companies that you think do this really well? And they could be crypto companies or they could be other types of companies. I'm just curious, like, if somebody wanted to go out into the internet, and I'm springing this question on you right now, so for anyone listening, he has not had a chance to think about this in advance, but I'm just curious like when you think of companies that are really great at simplifying the complex, are there any that spring to mind? Dennis: A lot that spring to mind that aren't great, but I'm not going to go down that way. Gosh, it's a tough question. But there are companies that... It was a company that I remember we're using a software that it's a project management software and I remember that really did a pretty good job of explaining and putting the content out in a way that, I believe it was called that LaSeon I they do JIRA and stuff like that, so that kind of comes to the back of my head, but now it's been a long time so I don't know, maybe they've moved on and they do it really poorly now. Kathleen: Well, I was going to say the one example that I think of immediately, and it's funny because I always ask people on this podcast, is there a company or an individual who's really doing inbound marketing well right now, and the answer I get most commonly is Drift. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them? Dennis: Yep, mm-hmm (affirmative). Kathleen: Yeah, they're actually a company that I think does this really well. And Dave Gerhardt who has been their VP of marketing who's actually leaving, or by the time this airs will have left Drift to go somewhere else, really brilliantly did this. Because I'll never forget, I went to their conference, HYPERGROWTH, it was like either last year or a year and a half ago, something like that. What they did that was so smart was they boiled everything they do down into one word and it's fundamentally like a chat bot, live chat tool. They're now introducing other features. But you know, you could talk about this in terms of chat, right? But instead they boiled everything they do down to one word, which was "now," and they talked about how, as customers, we want our information now, we don't want to have to wait. If we have a question, we want the answer now. And really that's sort of the essence of what chat bots and live chat solve for. And I just thought it was brilliant. And somebody asked this question the other day, if you had to boil what you do down into one word, what would that one word be? And I'm still trying to figure that out. Dennis: I'm a storyteller. That would be my word. Kathleen: It's tough, right? It's tough. Dennis: It is. Kathleen: But I think, I just thought that was interesting. So for me, that's the example that I think of when I think of a company that does a really good job of simplifying the complex. Dennis: Yeah. I mean, sure. As a marketing geek, like you probably are. I just love to, watching the TV, I always liked the commercials better than the programs. Everybody gets up and leaves in the commercials, and that's when I'm sitting there looking at them like yeah, I just love it. And especially get to Christmas and- Kathleen: Oh my God, at the Super Bowl, I watched the Super Bowl only for the commercials. Dennis: Yeah, I love the way that some of the brands tell really great stories in a 32 second, or a 60 second spot. And they tell a real story and they kind of, they can reach right in there and grab you in the gut. And I think that's what, I love watching that. That's more B2C kind of companies, but I think B2B marketing should be just as fun and just as entertaining. Kathleen: Oh, I totally agree, but it's so not in most cases. And the ones who are able to do it tend to do really, really well. Stand for something in your marketing Dennis: Yeah. Because I don't know why it is. I mean, I guess I do. I know that I see this with my clients sometimes too, they're scared. It's scary to be something that not everybody else is. And I tell my customers, "Look, you can be boring, but you have to write big checks. If you can't write big checks, you cannot be boring." Because there's no other way there. You can't, you can't play it safe and shine at the same time unless you've got... If you've got the budget to pour people into your funnel nonstop and it doesn't matter, you can just keep pouring, go for it. You can be boring and you'll still make sales. But if you don't have that ability, you don't have those resources and you have to be careful, then you can't afford to be boring. You've got to be entertaining. You've got to be funny. You've got to be controversial. Kathleen: Authentic. Dennis: Authentic. Got to stand for something. And you know, hey, you, you've got to be willing to, to rub a few people the wrong way sometimes. And that's just the way it is, because otherwise, if you're too nice to everybody, you're nobody to anybody. Kathleen: And it doesn't mean... I get what you're saying, but it's interesting. I've talked to some people about this who disagree because they read it as you're being offensive or mean, and I don't think that's what this is about. I think this is just being authentically true to who you are and understanding that not everyone's going to agree with you. Dennis: Exactly. Kathleen: Instead of like, you don't need to attack anyone or name and shame or call anybody else out. It's just being true to you. Dennis: Exactly. But you know, it's being willing to be brave enough to say what you think and sometimes you even using language that is brave enough that people will understand like, "Hey, these guys, they really mean it." You can't fake it though. I mean, if you fake it, you'll get caught because have really good BS radars, right? It's easy to tell when somebody's being aggressive just to call attention to themselves, but when you know that somebody actually believes something, that's what people, they feel it. We're having this conversation about marketing, I know that people out there understand that we like this. This is fun. It's interesting. We do this for a living because we like it, because it's meaningful. I'm not ashamed of being a marketer. I like it because I think that I'm doing good. I don't take clients that I don't like, if they don't fit with who I am, then they need to find a different marketer, right? Kathleen: Oh, totally the same for me. I have to believe in not only the product I'm marketing, but the claims that I'm making as a marketer. I can't make myself do marketing if I think the claims are overinflated or BS or not true, or unsubstantial. Is that a word? Dennis: Yeah. I think it is. Kathleen: You have to be able to go to sleep at night and be happy with yourself. So I totally agree with that. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Well, I can talk about this with you forever, but we don't have forever. So first I have two questions I always ask all my guests and I'm really curious to know what you're going to say. Earlier I talked about how one of those questions is, is there a particular company or individual that's really killing it with inbound marketing? Anyone come to mind for you? Dennis: Yeah, it's probably too simple, but HubSpot is really good at it. I mean their marketing materials are spot on. They really are good at using content to drive people to their solution. Kathleen: Yeah. And they better be because they invented the term inbound marketing, so they better be. Dennis: I guess so, right? Kathleen: And the second question is really with marketing changing so quickly, a lot of it, digital being driven by technology changes, how do you stay up to date on that changing landscape? Dennis: Oh gosh. I guess probably like everybody, you're always reading, you're always looking at stuff. I try though. I think for a long time I was suffering from the shiny penny syndrome. I would try everything new that came my way and we would test it out. I would drive my team absolutely crazy doing different stuff. I've tempered a bit that I try not to, you have to do it kind of yourself though. I learned the lesson that it really isn't that important. It's all about what you're saying and who you're saying it to. So, you know, play around, do it as best as you can, places to read. I mean, gosh, there's, there's one guy I would definitely recommend any marketers should go check out bensettle.com. Ben Settle, he's very irreverent, but he's a great marketer, a very good email marketer. You just get on his emails and listen to them. I guess that's my tip. How to connect with Dennis Kathleen: Ooh, I love that. I'm definitely going to check that out. Thank you for sharing that. Well, if someone is listening to this and they have questions or they want to learn more, is there a good way for them to connect with you online? Dennis: Sure. Dennis H. Lewis on LinkedIn, DennisHLewis on Twitter. Definitely check out my book on Amazon, Behold the Cryptopreneurs, and you can go to thecryptopreneur.club and cryptopreneurs.club and you can get the first four chapters for free. Kathleen: Oh, awesome. I love it. All right, well I will put links to all of that in the show notes, so if you're in connecting with Dennis, head to the show notes and check that out, that'll all be in there. But in the meantime, thank you Dennis. This has been great. I've really enjoyed talking with you about simplifying the complex and getting your insights on the best way to do that. Dennis: I guess the last thing to say is talk to your grandma. She probably has a good idea. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Yes. Go to the grandma's for the advice. All right, well that's it for this week. If you're listening and you learned something new, or you enjoyed this podcast, please head to Apple Podcasts and consider leaving the podcast a five star review, that is how people find us. I would really appreciate it. And if you know someone else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, as always, please tweet me @ workmommywork, because I would love to interview them. Thanks so much. That's it for this week.

Quick show notes Our Guest: Sam Julien What he'd like for you to see: Auth0 Community Forum | His Gatsby Course on Thinkster | Get a Job in Tech His JAMstack Jams: The methodology and not needing to stand up a server for every little thing His Musical Jam: "Not" by Big Thief Other Technology Mentioned Gatsby Jekyll NextJS AirTable Twilio Our sponsor this week: TakeShape Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:02 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first real episode of 2020 you're listening to That's My JAMstack, the podcast where we dare to ask the question, what is your jam in the JAMstack. I'm your host, Bryan Robinson. And today on the show, we have a speaker, author, teacher, a developer relations engineer at Auth0, Sam Julien. Bryan Robinson 0:24 I'm also pleased to welcome back to the show are sponsored TakeShape, find out more about their content platform after the episode or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack for more information. Bryan Robinson 0:39 All right, Sam, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Sam Julien 0:41 Yeah, thanks. I'm really happy to be here. Bryan Robinson 0:43 Cool. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun? That sort of thing? Sam Julien 0:47 Yeah. So I am a Developer Advocate engineer at Auth0, which is just sort of a fancy word for Developer Relations. And so basically, spend my time I'm doing a lot of interacting with developers who use Auth0 the product and then kind of taking that feedback back to the different teams. Sam Julien 1:11 And so I, I do a lot of speaking at events and things like that and working on basically combining x technology with Auth0 and trying to find the problems with it. Sam Julien 1:22 And then for fun, I actually live in a rural area of the Pacific Northwest. I live on 10 acres of land with my partner. And then we have some friends who also are in the own the land with us, and so they come up on weekends and stuff. And so we have, we have 20 chickens that we raise, and we're getting some eggs from and yeah, and so ever since moving on to this land that's sort of taken over as my hobby. I feel like I was a lot more interesting when I lived in Portland as far as like hobbies and activities but that's aside from taking care of the property.I see you have a Breath of the Wild artwork on your wall. And that's basically my current hobby is playing Breath of the Wild. Bryan Robinson 2:13 You could think almost a lifetime into that. So that'd be fine. Sam Julien 2:15 Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I don't know if I'm gonna go ... So we only got a Switch a few months ago. And I don't know if I'm going to go for completion on it. But Amy is definitely. She's already I think she's already got like, 105 shrines or something. And she's, she's going for 100%. Bryan Robinson 2:36 You could spend a long time going for 100%. So you eat a lot of the eggs that you get fresh from the chickens? Sam Julien 2:43 Well, we we just actually just started laying. Like a week ago, actually, we got them when they were chicks. And so I think we've almost got a dozen at this point. So we're probably going to start eating them pretty soon. There first ones are always kind of duds because they're like trying to figure it out and not fully formed. And so but I think we're just about there to start eating them. Bryan Robinson 3:10 All right. Well, this is this is neither a chicken podcast nor a gaming podcast. Let's let's talk about the JAMstack a little bit, right.Unknown Speaker 3:17 Yeah, I suppose we should talk about the JAMstack. Bryan Robinson 3:20 So what was kind of your entry point into this idea whether there was static sites back in the day, JAMstack nowadays? What's your what's your entry point? Sam Julien 3:28 Well, I mean, aside from, you know, the, the, the real static site being like, index.html and everything. Aside from that, I would say my introduction to the JAMstack was through Gatsby, and my introduction to Gatsby was just through, umm... So before I was in Developer Relations at Auth0, I was on the content team. So I was writing tutorials and stuff and we sort of went through this process. The blog at Auth0 is in Jekyll, and there's sort of this ongoing debate internally of whether to migrate to Gatsby or not. And I don't, I don't know if they're going to end up doing it or not. Because you know how it is with wanting to rewrite a platform. It's like, it's like, is this a good idea? Like, legacy code is still, it still works. So. But uh, so anyway, so that's so some colleagues on that team, were telling me about Gatsby. Sam Julien 4:24 And so I started looking into it. And I kind of just like instantly fell in love with it and started messing around with it and building stuff with it and looking at everybody else's blogs and portfolios that they were making with it. And it just really like scratch the itch for me of both being a developer and a writer, and I just really liked it. So then that kind of led down the path of the rest of the jam stack and all that. I guess Bryan Robinson 4:51 So, when you got into Gatsby, had you done a lot of react previously or was that new too? Sam Julien 4:56 It was actually kind of my way into React. Because I, I'm historically an Angular developer, like I came from C# and then like C# and Angular kind of go really well together. And so I've done I had done a bunch of Angular over the last few years. And then, but Auth0 basically uses React almost exclusively internally. And so I was, it was already sort of on my list of things to learn. But Gatsby was sort of a nice, like way into react because it handled all the tooling and everything, since it's just, it's basically just a supercharged create react app. And so it sort of gave me this nice platform to just dig into react, while not having to kind of worry about the all the tooling involved. Bryan Robinson 5:50 it's also got, I think, I think, a pretty strong set of opinions to which helps kind of guide on best practices. Sam Julien 5:56 Right, exactly. And an Angular like, angular has A ton of strong opinions. And so that's sort of what I was used to. I mean, it's sort of there's pros and cons to both approach both approaches. But I think when I was first starting to learn react when I joined Auth0, I was a little like dizzy by just how many different ways you can slice and dice react. And so Gatsby really did kind of help just kind of narrow the focus of like, here's like, a set of tools, like a ready made thing for you now just write some react and and figure it out, you know. Bryan Robinson 6:31 So, how are you using the JAMstack professionally? I mean, I know you said that they're debating coming to Gatsby and they are on Jekyll. But you're not on that content team anymore. Are you doing some JAMstack type things and your developer relations that Auth0? Sam Julien 6:46 Yeah, so I I, I'm sort of doing both stuff personally and professionally with it from the professional side at off zero. It's mostly I've been really kind of digging into What authentication looks like in the jam stack because it's kind of an interesting. It's an it's an interesting, new problem set, because it's sometimes it's more like a traditional web app. And sometimes it's more like just a single page application. And sometimes you have these serverless models that you have to authenticate and stuff like that. Sam Julien 7:23 So so I'm sort of in this research phase right now if like trying to build different prototypes with Gatsby or Next or you know, things like that and wrap my head around what the problem set looks like of like, when is it more like a traditional web app? When is it more like a spa? When is there sort of this in between weird case of serverless stuff and all that and so that's sort of what I'm doing now is is figuring out how Azzurro fits in with jam stack stuff and how we can make it easy for developers and that kind of thing. And then from the on the personal side of things, I'm using Gatsby to build, build, I'm rebuilding, I am rebuilding my own personal site with Gatsby, which is I still am not convinced it's a great idea, but I'm going to do it anyway. And, and, and then I built I loved Gatsby so much, but I, I couldn't find exactly like the way of teaching it that that I liked. And so I built a course for a platform called things through.io on Gatsby just sort of like getting started with Gatsby. And so that's minute sort of another side project endeavors this, this course and different content, I ended up doing a couple egghead lessons on some Gatsby stuff. And so that's sort of my Gatsby sort of fueling my side hustle as well as my day job right now. Bryan Robinson 8:57 Cool. So uh, so what is kind of the thing that brings you to the JAMstack in terms of what do you love about it? What's your what's your jam in the JAMstack? Sam Julien 9:07 I really think this whole concept of not needing to pair a server with a front end is really nice. I just think that nowadays there there are so many different like SaaS products and like serverless products and things like that, that like, it seems like for a lot of cases other than complex enterprise stuff. You don't really need to spend a lot of time messing with building your own server and all of that, you know, it's just like, if you're just doing if you're pulling in data from outside, you know, like Twilio or wherever, you know, or AirTable or things like that. Sam Julien 9:53 Or if you're just making like a recently, a lot of developer relations as you know as building a lot of sample apps. And so recently I've been thinking I would always build like a little Express server to serve up data and stuff like that. And now I'm sort of like there's not really any point, I could just put this in a serverless function and reuse the same thing over and over again, and I don't really need it. So I'm really liking that, that the JAMstack has sort of opened up, like it's making so much stuff easier for a large a large percentage of apps that people need to build, you know what I mean? Bryan Robinson 10:31 Yeah, and so so you come from like a C# background so you're obviously not afraid of server side languages. I myself, deathly afraid serverside languages, so kind of, do you have a point where you would go and spin up your own server now or are you going to just be going in this serverless way going forward? Sam Julien 10:49 Well, I mean, I can see so like my my previous jobs were at like in doing like line of business applications for like bigger companies. One was like a finance company one was like a renewable energy nonprofit. So there, those places have a lot of complex business logic that has to happen, you know, with a bunch of data in a database where you have to manipulate and run a bunch of business rules and stuff like that. And to me that, that seems like kind of the obvious use case for like a real server where you actually, like, have a lot of stuff that has to interact with the database and, you know, sort of the more traditional route of, of servers and databases and all that. And so, but I think for a lot of modern stuff that's not enterprise level, the serverless JAMstack stuff works pretty well, you know, and especially with having node I mean, you can sort of just use JavaScript all the time and it's just things are just so much easier. It's It's really nice. Bryan Robinson 11:54 Front End Dev and designer like me, like it just makes my life so much more pleasant Sam Julien 12:00 Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Bryan Robinson 12:02 So so the kind of the whole methodology of that is is where where you're going with your jam, right? Sam Julien 12:07 Yeah, yeah. Basically the whole philosophy. Bryan Robinson 12:10 Yeah. So. So in terms of serverless and all that, right, so you said you started exploring authentication in this world for all zero. How's that going? Because I'll be honest, I haven't done a whole lot of research into it yet. Sam Julien 12:24 It's interesting. And one thing we can link to is one of our architects named Sandrino wrote this really cool article on NextJS and Auth0, but I mean, it's with Auth0, but it also anytime we write about Auth0, we try to also have things that are basically broad, more broad for authentication in general. But we're sort of figuring out that there's these like I said, sort of three different models basically, of like, sometimes it's more like a traditional web app because you're basically, if you're if you're doing everything server side, then it's sort of more like a traditional web app, right? Because you're, you're not really running anything in the browser. I mean, you're running it in the browser, but you're not. There's nothing dynamic happening in the browser. And so you would kind of go with the standard, standard web app approach. Sam Julien 13:21 And then there's things like Gatsby are sort of like Gatsby is interesting, because it's, it got its start as like a static site generator, but it's never actually like, holy a static site, right? Because it's still react, running, you know, like as a spa. And so that sort of this weird case where it's like, it's kind of a static site, but really, you would authenticate it just like you would a spa, pretty much. But then there's this like Next has this whole thing with the serverless deployment model. And from there, you sort of have to determine like where I need The authenticated data like do I need it when the page first renders? Or do I need it later? and Sandrino, you know, has some nice diagrams in that article that will do a better job of explaining it than I can in audio. Bryan Robinson 14:14 Lovely Mouth Blogging as Dave Rupert would say Sam Julien 14:16 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that stuff's really interesting. And I'm still sort of wrapping my head around at all and building out sample apps and stuff like that. But but it's, it's interesting. And it's definitely as the JAMstack continues to be as popular as it is more and more people will need to understand how to protect all their data and everything. Bryan Robinson 14:39 And Auth is probably the one of the biggest challenges to like adoption in the JAMstack right now to like, how do I protect pages when it's just static? Sam Julien 14:47 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Our architecture and content and developer relations at Auth0 have all been sort of mulling this over for a little while, because I think actually, for this article, Sandrino was talking to people outside and stuff because it's sort of like how do we want to do this? You know, like, what are the best practices here? Bryan Robinson 15:08 Let's create some standards for it and kind of go Sam Julien 15:12 Yeah, exactly. Bryan Robinson 15:15 So let's let's talk musical jam now what are you listening to? what's what's your favorite song or musician or genre? Sam Julien 15:23 I finally I have a great answer for this now and it's because So have you ever heard of the band Big Thief I have made so they on their last on their most recent album, their their single is called Not. And it's got it's like one of the my, like, favorite songs that I've heard in several years. Like there's something very emotional about it. That is just really awesome. And it's nice because I yeah, I just haven't I haven't felt that kind of like connection to a song. In a really long time so I've been I've been playing that a lot not by big thief. Sam Julien 16:06 Let's see what else what else have I been? I feel like as I get older I have less and less like emotional connection to things because I'm not young and nostagic anymore but let's see what am I've been listening to you other than that. I like Tool's new album a lot. I liked Angel Olsen's most recent album, I'm a really big Angel Olsen fan. She's sort of like the singer songwriter type, but her album couple years ago, called What was it called My Woman in 2016. That was a fantastic album, if you haven't listened to it. Bryan Robinson 16:46 That's actually my favorite thing on the podcast other than learning about new technology is learning about all these like drastically different musical tastes and going and listening to what what everyone says. Sam Julien 16:53 I love that. I think that's a really great when I saw that question in the invite. I was like, Oh, that's cool. That's Great I like that. I'd be curious, what's what's your current jam right now? What are you listening? Bryan Robinson 17:05 You turn the tables on me! Sam Julien 17:06 I'm turning the tables Bryan Robinson 17:07 First time! You know, I just I'm behind the times always like that perpetually. But I just this past summer went and saw Hamilton, the touring company came around, and I didn't think I was going to... Like, I thought I would like it; like musical theater well enough, but like, I am in love with it. And it gets me going in the mornings like it really pumps me up. And then I go and research all the founding fathers and realize how horrible they were. But it it gets me going at least. Sam Julien 17:36 Yeah, now, Hamilton; Amy was really into Hamilton. And so I kind of I'm like neutral towards musical theater. Like, I don't I don't dislike it. I don't you know, but Amy was really into it. And so when it came to Portland, I got us tickets and we went, and I'll admit, like, I loved it. I thought it was like it was not overrated at all like I kind of went into it expecting it to be a little overrated because it's so popular, but like, I thought it was fantastic. Bryan Robinson 18:07 There's a reason it won all those awards. Sam Julien 18:08 Yeah, I mean, some some things are hyped up because they're actually that great, you know, like, like Beyonce. Bryan Robinson 18:17 Yeah, exactly. I found that running to it actually works really well, too. So I'm trying to get into running and that has just the right beat for how bad I am at running. SoUnknown Speaker 18:26 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's great. I am. I really I had seen In the Heights A long time ago. And so I already liked Lin-Manuel Miranda. But yeah, it's, it's a great yeah. If you ever have a chance, I don't know if In the Heights is still playing anywhere, but if you ever have a chance to see it, it's a really good one. Bryan Robinson 18:46 I didn't even know he had written anything before that. And I researched what he had done was like, Oh, you've done this before. Okay. Sam Julien 18:51 Yeah, yeah, he's Yeah, he's super talented. But that one is about like Washington Heights in New York and stuff like that. It's really great. Bryan Robinson 19:00 For someone indifferent towards towards musical theater you you've got at least that much now. Sam Julien 19:05 Yeah, that's true. I I kind of Yeah, I would say. Other than that though I'm I tend to be pretty neutral about about theater, I could take it or leave it. I respect it. And I respect that other people love it. It's just not it's just not my thing. Not my jam... Bryan Robinson 19:24 All right. And so let me let me ask, Is there anything that you would like to promote? Get out to the JAMstack community? Anything that you're doing that you won't get out there? Sam Julien 19:30 Yeah, I'll say on the on the professional side. Yeah, just keep an eye on Auth0 for JAMstack stuff because we're actively working on it. And, and if people have like input or things they want to talk about, we have a great community forum. So if you're running into authentication problems in JAMstack stuff, like definitely let us know because we're always kind of putting our ear to the ground and trying to figure out what problems people are having. So we can Try to solve them. Sam Julien 20:02 And then personally Yeah, the the Gatsby course on Thinkster. I'm really proud of it. I think it's a good course. And so that would be good. I'm also I just started, I'm starting this new project called Get a Job in Tech. I'm a self taught developer, I transitioned from finance. And I was lucky because I had some mentors that sort of shepherded me along the way, and not everybody has that. And so I'm starting this new, it's still really early, but basically, I plan on I'm already like, right, sending out emails and stuff and writing content for it, but it's basically to help people with the like, meta skills of getting your first job because I feel like a lot of people think, you know, they learned they learned some stuff on like, Free Code Camp or any any other great site on learning to code and then they sort of get stuck because they're like, okay, where's like, how do I actually get the Job, and you just sort of throw your resume up on a lot of places. And then you get these rejection letters that are like, you don't have any experience and you're like, no duh don't have any. Bryan Robinson 21:10 It's a Junior position, come on!Unknown Speaker 21:12 Yeah, like literally, like, that's what it is like. And so there's all these skills of like, like learning in public with GitHub and stuff like that, that like, not many people really teach you, you know, like, there's sort of an art to getting or getting a job and that kind of thing. So that I've been really thinking about that lately. And so I started that up as a sort of a labor of love. And where's that it's get a job in dot tech, basically, I'll, I'll paste in the link. Yeah. And then and then basically, everything I do is tracked at SamJulien.com so you can always go there and I have an occasional email list and stuff like that. So if you ever want to keep up with talks I'm doing or lessons I'm publishing on egghead or thinkest or anything like that. Bryan Robinson 22:00 Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk with us today and share your insights. And I hope that you keep doing awesome stuff at all zero and that your chickens eggs are delicious.Unknown Speaker 22:09 Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Bryan Robinson 22:12 Yeah, no problem. All right. Well take care. Bryan Robinson 22:18 All right, it is sponsored time, I want to take a second and thank this week's sponsor TakeShape. TakeShape calls, their offering a content platform. And that's, that's really the best description. They have a handy CMS, a static site generator, and a simple GraphQL API all ready to use on the JAMstack. Bryan Robinson 22:35 Beyond all that they also have new features coming in all the time, like their new Mesh product that allows you to mix and match data from multiple sources into one neat GraphQL interface. If all that sounds interesting, you be sure to go to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack to find out more. Bryan Robinson 22:53 And as always, I want to thank the JAMstack community for listening for responding on Twitter for talking about things in communities. Just for being an amazing place to work and to play and to spend my time. So if you like this podcast let me know by hitting the like, subscribe, all those good things and whatever podcast app you use, and until next week, keep doing amazing things and keep things jamming.Transcribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.comSupport That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

Work in IT for just a bit, and you’ll know that there are some days when everything just clicks, but sometimes (maybe a lot?) it doesn't. Similarly, there are days when we show up to the synagogue, church, or dojo and we are focused; versus days when every moment seems like a slog through the mud. But... maybe we're expecting too much. Is it reasonable to expect most days to be unicorns and sunshine and hot java? What does our religious/moral/ethical POV teach us about how we set our expectations for a "normal" day in IT?In this episode Leon, Josh, Doug, and new voice Steven Hunt discuss these ideas and explore whether there are there lessons we can take from one area of our life to the other about how to get through (and move past) a bad day - whether it's in the office, in the gym, or in the pews. Listen or read the transcript below.   Leon: 00:00 Welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate it. We're not here to preach or teach you our religion. We're here to explore ways we make our career as it professionals mesh or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is technically religiousJosh: 00:21 Work in IT for just a bit and you'll know that there are some days when everything just clicks, but sometimes all right, maybe a lot it doesn't. Similarly, there are days when we show up to the synagogue, church, or Dojo and we are focused versus days when every moment seems like a slog through the mud, but maybe we're expecting too much. Is it reasonable to expect most days to be unicorns and sunshine and hot java? What does our religious moral, ethical point of view teach us about how we set our expectations for a "normal" day in IT? Are there lessons we can take from one area of our life to the other about how to get through and move past a bad day, whether it's in the office, in the gym, or in the pews. I'm Josh Biggley. And the other voices you're going to hear in this episode are my podcasting partner in crime, Leon Adato.Leon: 01:11 Hello everyone.Josh: 01:12 Another regular voice on this show. Doug Johnson.Doug: 01:15 Hello.Josh: 01:16 And our newest guest to technically religious Steven Hunt.Steven: 01:19 Hey, how's it going?Josh: 01:20 All right everyone. So this is the point in the show where we're going to do some some shameless self promotion. Um, so again, I'm Josh Biggley. I'm a Senior Engineer for Enterprise Monitoring. You can find me on Twitter at @jbiggley and uh, ya know, faithtransitions.ca is a website that I recently started with my wife for Canadians, uh, who are going through some form of faith transition. Doug, anything you want to, uh, to, uh, talk to us about?Doug: 01:47 Uh, I'm Doug Johnson. I'm CTO for wave RFID. We do inventory management using radio waves in the, uh, optical shop. Uh, I've recently dropped off of just about all social media. So the only thing I've got right now is a cooking website called .cooklose.com. So if you'd like recipes head on over.Josh: 02:05 Right. Nice. Steven.Steven: 02:07 I'm Steven Hunt, I'm Senior Director of Product Management at Data Corp software. Uh, you can find me on Twitter at, @SteveWHunt. Uh, and when I actually have the site up and uh, I haven't let it lapse in payment, you can read my blog on RamblingsOfATechJunkie.com.Leon: 02:24 So it sounds like it's my turn. Uh, I'm Leon Adato. I'm one of the Head Geeks at SolarWinds. You can find me on the Twitters @LeonAdato and uh, you can also find my blog adatosystems.com. And for those people who scribbling madly either Ramblings of a Tech Junkie or Cook Loose or any of those, we're going to have that in the show notes. So don't, scribble no more. Just listen and enjoy.Josh: 02:46 I mean, fine. Yeah. Find your zen this, this is going to be a good episode because some of us have bad days at the office, right?Leon: 02:55 All of us, all of us have bad days at the office. [Laughing].Doug: 02:57 Regularly!Leon: 03:00 Right? Um, actually, OK. So, so I actually think we should start a little bit elsewhere, not in the office, not in the tech office at least. Um, but I want to start in with our religious, moral or ethical, uh, or basically non technical point of view because I think that's where we recognize that things are hard and we are either more or differently prone to address them. Um, what I mean by that is that I think many of us recognize that sometimes worship or prayer can be hard. Um, first of all, there's the mechanics of it. Um, I know I still, uh, having gone from being not particularly religious Jewishly to being orthodox still eight or nine years later, struggle with just the mechanics of reading Hebrew and knowing what part of the service we're in and knowing what's supposed to happen. It, it is still a thing for me. Um, and that's hard then. But then there's also moments when just the thing I'm confronting or, or praying about or working on myself about is hard too. Um, I don't know. What do you, what are do you folks think?Josh: 04:12 I think that's, I, you know, that last part, right? And it does, this is one of those moments where it doesn't really matter if, if you're talking about your religious or your moral or your ethical pursuits when you have to step back and, and try to do some, some self-examination, some introspection that is really difficult to do. Uh, I just went through some training, uh, for leadership, uh, at my company and it was all about really taking a look at yourself and deconstructing the things that you think you do well. Um, and then this, this wonderful and gut wrenching experience of asking your peers, including, uh, your, your reports, your managers, the engineers who work with you to give you anonymous feedback. I guess I could have really couched that, uh, you know, that list of people by asking people that I knew were going to give me positive feedback. But I mean, isn't the reason that we engage in those, those exercises is we want the, the harsh critiques. We want to know, uh, even where our enemies know where we're at. I don't know that, that's not something that I'm, I'm sure that people really embrace. Right. How is it normal to want to, uh, to, you know, to have that feedback from others? I mean, is that why we go to deity because we expect, uh, him, her, it to, to give us the, the harsh reality when we're not getting it from others?Doug: 05:45 I think so the hard thing for me is really knowing whether you're doing it right or not. I mean, Leon was saying, you know, there's, there's a way you do things in the Orthodox world. Well in the Chris, uh, Evangelical Christian world, there is not necessarily the right way to do it, although, Gosh, yeah, there are enough books on prayer say, to go ahead and, uh, keep you reading for the rest of your life and you'll never pray again.Leon: 06:12 [Laughing]Doug: 06:12 The problem is, you know, how do you, you need to learn how to do it in a way that makes some sense. I mean, I, I keep coming back to God knows everything. Why does he need me to pray to him to know? And I understand that it's, you know, it's for me, not for him, but still, how do you do it in a way that gets me into the, uh, you know, the right way to do that. So you know, the how to can get in the way of the actual process itself.Leon: 06:44 Yeah. I think there's, there's many moments when you were like, what the hell am I supposed to be doing here? You know, and not just, not just do I stand up or sit down kind of what the hell do I do, but also like, okay, where, where are we going with this? You know, when my, when, when a track coach says, run that way as fast as you can and jump over those hurdles, then it's pretty straight forward. But it's a little bit less clear.Steven: 07:08 No, I was gonna say that, that's one of the things that, that, that I struggled with growing up a Southern Baptist when you were mentioning the, the aspect of what, what am I doing here? How I don't, I, it just doesn't feel right. This doesn't, you know, fit. That was, that was something I constantly dealt with. Right. And then coming, coming to a conclusion that, that I just, I don't have an identification with any deity. I don't, you know, it's not something that fits me. And, and I guess if you will, casting that aside, um, you know, it, it, it changed a little bit of the way that I think, the way that I look at it, I, I stopped trying to fit into a mold that wasn't me and started to be more myself. Right. And that's something that, that it was, it's, it's a, it's a struggle. It was a daily struggle. It was a very difficult concept to deal with. And that's where bad days were more consistent at that point in time for me.Leon: 08:02 And I think there's a, there's, to put it in a, again, a workout context, like some, for some people spin classes never gonna work like this, just not gonna, but for those same people rowing or curling or.Josh: 08:16 Jazz-ercise!Doug: 08:16 Laying on the couch!Leon: 08:16 Or [laughing]Steven: 08:18 Well, that, that's, I, I do Crossfit and Crossfit. It's not for everyone. Right. And a lot of people make fun of crossfit constantly, but, but for me, it fits, it, it, it, it gives me the workout that I'm looking for. It gives me the, uh, the, the, the health benefits that, that ultimately I'm looking for and I just enjoy doing it. But if I were out there trying to be a runner and I am not a runner, it would be a terrible thing. It'd be, it'd be horrible. I would, I, first of all, I don't know the first thing about running effectively. I look bad. I, my, my times are terrible. And so you, you gravitate to what feels natural to what, what works for you.Leon: 08:56 Okay. All right. And I think the interesting thing is that when you're talking about, you know, a health regime, a health regimen, um, that's one thing, you know, you can, you can sort of find your space. But I think when you're talking about, you know, religious, ethical, moral, the variety of choices you have is limited. If you feel drawn to, um, whether you feel drawn to a god concept or a philosophical concept, your choices are limited. And so if you doesn't feel right, you know, that's again, that's the bad day at the office. What, what is that like, how does that work in that religious ethical context?Steven: 09:33 It mostly takes you were you working through you, you, you have to come to terms with who you are, what you feel, what you think, um, and, and that helps you ultimately, uh, reconcile with whatever that is that, that, that's bringing you down at any given time.Leon: 09:51 Okay. So, so other bad days, uh, in the non tech office w uh, what are some other experiences you guys have had?Doug: 09:57 We were just talking about, you know, finding, finding your, uh, your, uh, regimen, your what religion you're going to be, but you know, once you found the one that works for you, everything's all perfect from then on, right?ALL: 10:12 Exactly.Doug: 10:14 Those are the bad days that man, I mean like all of the, so I've picked the one. All right. I'm an evangelical Christian. I, you know, I've, I've, I've, I take, took the pill, I bought the, drank the Koolaid, whatever, you know, but not to the point where I..Leon: 10:30 ...have had the frontal lobotomy.New Speaker: 10:33 Exactly. I, it's just, you know, I, I still think I still have my freaking Philosophy major that just makes me question everything. And there are just some days where it doesn't go well. Um, I mean I, I actually haven't been going to church lately cause I've had some health issues. I've had this vertigo thing last time I went to church, this is, you know, I'd been stable for awhile and I got there and I drove to church and I got there and the church was getting set to start and all of a sudden the room started spinning. What do you do? So I went over to the prayer corner, which is outside there and put my head down and close my eyes and I look like I was praying through the whole service for the service and everybody thought I was hyper-spiritual but I just, you know, the room was moving.Leon: 11:22 [Laughing]New Speaker: 11:22 So it's, you know, after, after 25 minutes the drugs kicked in and I was able to go home and that was my last big service because I had a bad day at the service, not because of the service, but just my body chose that it didn't want to do that that day.Leon: 11:39 I think one of the big things there was that you didn't let it throw you. Like, I think some people would say it's a sign, you know, or something like that. You didn't let it know, no, this is just my body being my body.Doug: 11:49 It's all right. Oops. And like I said, there's some people who, who saw me that day, but I think I'm really, really spiritual now.Josh: 11:54 Interestingly, the one of the hardest days that I had in my religious observance. Uh, and for those who have not, um, have not listened to any of the previous episodes first, shame on you. Go back and listen to all of our backlog. Yeah. I grew up Mormon and I, I was, uh, I would say I was an Orthodox Mormon, sometimes ultra Orthodox for 41 ish years. And I was reminded of the moment that I realized that Mormonism didn't work for me anymore. Uh, I was on Facebook today and I saw a woman in one of the support groups that I, that I'm in who posted having read some things and she's like, "I have realized that my entire world is a lie". I can still remember the exact moment. I can remember where on the plane I was sitting. I can remember where I was looking at and like looking out the window, I remember kind of like, you know, the lighting, like everything in that moment when I realized that walking away from Mormonism was the thing I had to do, that there was no going back. That was a hard day. And that's one of those pivotal moments and I think we all have them. At some points in our lives. And Steven, I loved hearing that, that you had a moment where you went, "I don't think I belong here anymore and I have to walk away". We all have those moments where we either choose that we're going to stay and we in, we entrench ourselves because it's what we want or we have to make a decision to walk away. You cannot live in the upside down. It does not work. You, you, you have to live in reality. Uh, and if you get pulled back into that, that gray space in your life, you have to confront it. And that, that's my, I'm a, I'm very passionate about people embracing their pursuit of whatever it is. And it doesn't matter if it's the cult of Crossfit and yes, Steven, it is a cult. I want you to know that.ALL: 14:00 [Laughing]Steven: 14:01 You're 100% correct. It, it absolutely is,Josh: 14:05 But whether, you know, it's, it's the cult of Crossfit or the cult Christianity or the cult of Mormonism or, you know, whatever it would ever, those beliefs, those indoctrinated beliefs are, you have to decide if you are going to live them or if you're going to go live something else. Uh, the people that I found most frustrating when I was a Orthodox Mormon was the people who were like,"Yeah, you know, I really, I'm okay with these parts, but I don't really want to do the hard things. And, you know, showing up to church on Sunday is kind of fun and it's, you know, but I don't want to put the work in!" And I'm like, "You know, you gotta put the work in!" So yeah, you gotta do the hard things.Leon: 14:45 Yeah. And I think that there's, there's a difference. I'm going to challenge what, what's been said. A little...Josh: 14:50 No, Crossfit is a cult.Leon: 14:50 [Laughing] Ok, I'm not challenging that part! 100% in agreement, but I think that there are moments when you realize that something is simply not you but I think that a lot of folks, um, you know, especially in relilgious context, because it, uh, feels somewhat optional, uh, but in other contexts as well it, uh, to what you were saying Josh, its a little bit challenging, its a little bit uncomfortable and so I'm not going to do it. And, and, so I have a story about that. I was, uh, walking out of Synagogue, and there was somebody who was new, and you always know the new people, just because they are, uh, new, and, uh, the regulars are the regulars. And this new person has just shown up and they were there and, uh, they were walking out and the Rabbi said, "So, you know, what's your name?" and got to know him and, so, "How ya doing?" And the person, very honestly, said "Ya know, I just wasn't feeling it. It just wasn't working for me. Maybe this just isn't my thing?" And, I'll never forget, my Rabbi gave him, sort of, THAT look. You know, that stern, over-the-glasses, look, and said "You know, aren't guaranteed two-scoops of epiphany in every box of Shabbat-Crunch cereal." Ya know, you're, you don't, maybe you have to put a little work into this before you gonna feel it in some way. And, and, I want to put out that a bad day in the pews, a bad day, um, especially when it is one of your first days, A), is gonna happen, but sometimes it's not a bad day, but it's just a regular day. That those euphoric days that, maybe, we were sold on thinking we were supposed to get every single time, Doug, to your point, ya know, "Boy, I can't be as religious as that guy with his head down in the corner! Wow, he was really intense! How do you do that, I didn't feel anything like that!!" Ya, he wasn't feeling it either, but you didn't know that.Doug: 14:50 [Laughing] It's true!Leon: 14:50 Umm, ya know, I think that, that you have to recognize that, that those are some days! Umm, whether they are every day or most days or just a few, ya know, you can't show up just once to the gym and walk out looking like "Arnold" or whatever. It's gonna take a little bit of work. So, uhh, right, wrong, different, what do you guys think?Doug: 14:50 I think that, sometimes, the expectations are that we're going to an awful lot more of those epiphanies than really we should expect. One, one of the things that interests me, because, I, I read through the Bible more than once a year. I mean, just continually reading through it, and I am amazed how rarely God talks to even the people that, I mean, Abraham, he, he would speak to Abraham and then he would go off doing his God thing somewhere...Leon: 14:50 [Laughing].Doug: 14:50 ...for 20, 25 years. And Abraham is just chugging along. Most of us, if God doesn't appear to us in a dream and at least once every three weeks we, you know, get worried about it. It's like, no, you're not gonna have that many epiphanies. You just, you need to just sort of keep at it.Josh: 18:01 I think that's an interesting point, right? Yeah. Sometimes when we go into situations, whether we're, you know, we're pursuing a new, uh, political belief, uh, I followed the Greens for a long time, then left and now I've headed back. Or whether you're, uh, you know, uh, a moral philosophy, religious observance, we see the people who have been practicing that, uh, that lifestyle for years and we have this expectation that we're going to walk in and suddenly be like them. We're going to know all the right things to say, we're going to know all the right things to do. We're going to know what not to do. Um, you know, apparently bringing a Styrofoam Cup to the Green Party's, um, meeting as a bad idea, you, those sorts of things, right?Leon: 18:48 Who knew!?!Josh: 18:48 Right? Um, you know, shuttle left the, a 12 cylinder Jag at home, but those are the things that aren't, that are hard. And we have this, we have this, this, uh, instant gratification problem, at least in Western society where we expect that because we want it and because we really, really want it. It's just going to happen. And that hard work isn't there. But I, I will. And I'm going to put on my parent hat now. So I'll tell you that the, the most, uh, difficult things that you do will often be the most rewarding. I, I, I know I'm making fun of that, but it really, the hardest things I've had to do in my life have been the things that when I overcame them were really the most satisfying. And I think that that's for religious observance as well. If it works for you, do it. Um, I mean, don't be a jerk, but cause that's a bad thing. We already [stumbling] Nah, I'm not gonna go there. I'm like, do, do the thing that is hard because you know it's the right thing to do.Leon: 19:55 Yeah. Um, okay. So, so Steven, I'm going to call you out a little bit just cause, uh, I know that weightlifting is one of the things that you do and uh, I will fully admit that I do not, um, if I say that I'm in shape, it's simply because round is a shape.Josh: 20:07 Amen.Leon: 20:07 It however everyone else in my family were weightlifters and powerlifters and football players and things like that. I was the runt of the litter. And, um, so I, I know just from osmosis about it and there's always that moment when the, the new, it's always guys, the new guy walks into the gym and you know, either loads up way too much weight on the bench press or just is, you know, arms are puffed out, chest is puffed out. And, in a bad gym, everyone steps away in a good gym, everyone steps forward, but they're all aware that this guy is going to hurt himself or someone else or the equipment. Worst of all the equipment. Um, and I dunno, Steven, if you have any experiences with that.Steven: 20:54 I mean in, in Crossfit constantly, right? It's where the Crossfit is known for poor form, bad movements and people doing it wrong, like doing lifts wrong. Um, and, and to your point, a, a bad gym is, is one that lets you keep doing it. They're like, "Hey, that guy is, you know, he's, he's here, he's lifting", uh, or "She's here. She's lifting". Um, the good gym is the one that says, hey, take a, you know what you're doing right here. Let's make an adjustment. And the people that, uh, that want to get better, that they want to make that evolution, they receive that criticism. Well, the ones that, uh, think they know what they're doing and don't want to hear any, any constructive criticisms, they may not show up next time or they may lash out at you, um, that there may be steroids involved there. I don't know.Leon: 21:48 [Laughing] Or just, or just bad temper. I mean, it doesn't always have to be drug induced. It can just sometimes even learn, you know, just a jerk. And, uh, and I will tell you that that is not, um, absent from the synagogue as well. Sometimes people come in and they're, uh, clearly uncertain about what's going on. But when someone tries to offer a helping hand, they, uh, respond poorly.Josh: 22:11 I had no idea. Steroids were a problem in Judaism.Leon: 22:13 Right? [Laughing] Yeah, they're, they're not. [Laughing] Right. Okay. So, so I think we've run down, uh, bad days in, uh, the gym, the Dojo, the Pew, the synagogue, et cetera. I want to pivot to what a bad day looks like in it. Um, because you know, just what, what does it look like? Because I'll start it off. You know, some days the machine actually is out to get you, no matter what you try. Um, I, I don't know why I have had experiences where over the course of hours or sometimes days, I experienced rapid multiple system collapse. And what I mean by that is that a hard drive on my laptop dies and also two of the four monitors on my desktop system die and the the washing machine dies and something goes out on the car. Like all systems begin to crumble around and like, all right, I, it must be me this week. I'm just not going to touch anything else. I, I dunno if you've had that experience, but sometimes the machines just don't like you.Steven: 23:24 It was just a revolt that day.Leon: 23:27 I wish. And if they had just told me that that's what it was or that I was revolting, I would have left them alone. But no, I had to go buy a new hard drive and monitor and you know, all that stuff.Doug: 23:37 I mean it happens that way. I always people, people are, we'll be working on something say, well this is going well and I'm going, "Oh, you just jinxed it."ALL: 23:47 [Laughing]Doug: 23:47 "Why would you ever say that?" You never say it's going well because you just set it up to go the, the, the, the computer gods are now going to go ahead and throw a lightning bolt and it will take out your hard drive or something along that line. It just, you can't do that.Josh: 24:04 I once did a SAN upgrade and I think I have, I've actually shared this story, um, on the, on this podcast. So, I did this SAN upgrade, um, at my last employer, um, it was for our vmware environment. We are a managed services provider, so we had a bunch of hosted vms. Um, and like most companies, you know, you did backups, but we hadn't really tested all of our backups so we didn't actually know if our backups worked. Started the SAN upgrade. Suddenly we had no, no drives anymore. Uh, the whole SAN was gone at 20 hours later. I'm on the phone with both vmware and the SAN provider and both engineers said, "We have nothing for you. I hope your backups are good." I mean, you get real religious when your entire, I mean like everything is gone there. There were no LUNs. Uh, yeah, that, that is probably my single worst day at the office. And that was a long day.Leon: 25:08 Right. I'm talking about the demo, talking about the gods, the tech Gods. Um, I've always found it amusing and slightly horrifying that at conventions, um, most notably DevOps days tends to do this because it's, it's multiple talks, one right after another. And a lot of them are live demos and so there's a shrine off to the side, a shrine to the demo gods. And people will come up and make a make offerings and there is serious prayer going. These are people who in any other context would tell you that they were absolutely irreligious that they had no connection, that they were devout atheists or at least agnostics, right? They just have nothing and yet they are making deep obeisances , you know they are bowing down to the, to the demo guys because live demos during a talk like you should never, never do.Josh: 26:01 Like what? What sort of sadists are you guys?Leon: 26:06 [Laughing].Josh: 26:06 Do not do live demos? Oh my goodness that is like, that is like playing craps with the devil. Like, oh.Steven: 26:15 You, you, you have to sacrifice entire server rack to the demo gods for a live demo presentation. It's just, it's a, it's 100% required. I can't think of the amount of times. It was funny. Leon you mentioned, regardless of, you know, if you're atheist or agnostic, you, you, you immediately go to that shrine it if you have to do a demo that day, I don't know. I can't count the number of offerings I made it SolarWinds when we were doing some type of demo during our recordings. And then live demos at an event were just, I couldn't, it was just one of those things that you freak out constantly.Leon: 26:52 As a side note, if anybody's who's listening wants to see something very, very funny, go to the SolarWinds Youtube Channel, Look for the 50th episode anniversary where they do a whole montage of demos going wrong and you'll see Steven having just a really, really bad time with something over and over again. So yes, I think I was there for a few of those. Demo Demo. Extravaganzas um...Doug: 27:18 Yet sometimes it can go well. I mean, when I was writing, um, medical software and one of the things that we did, it was called, it was called the shootout. And so we actually had to demo our software, our medical record software in front of 500 physicians. It was done every year and they put two people up. And so if a physician would stand there and would actually dictate one of the records that, that, that you, you were allowed to preload your stuff, but you had to do it live. And, one year, my partner and I, who is actually now my business partner in WaveRFID, uh, we were the ones that were doing it. I'm was the technical person. She was the lead one and we were demoing Alpha software. It was a brand new version that we were doing in front of 500 docs and it all went out like 10 minutes before it started. We ran down the hall, came all the way back, shoved a new version in and demo'd the thing. But because we did our obese, you know, we said, it's not us. We are so sorry. This is alpha. Please forgive us. We humbled ourselves and the demo went great, you know, so some days it works out if you're suitably obeisant.Leon: 28:29 Yes. Wow. I, yeah, it's, that's, I can't imagine, I mean you call it a shootout because you're just like, "Just shoot me now". Yeah. Um, wow. That's insane. And it, and I think that if you've been working in it for any amount of time, you know, there's, there's similar stories like that. Um, and okay, so pivoting from demo and machines, there's other parts of being in it that are bad day to, um, I, I think that many of us wish for a world that we grew up watching or some of us grew up watching in star trek where everyone in the engineering, uh, in the engineering area was incredibly competent and everyone got along. Even if they didn't always get along, they still got everything done and a, they were all focused on solutions and stuff like that. And the reality is that in IT shops, uh, across the globe, politics is a thing. Trademark all rights reserved. Um, sometimes it's not the machine that's out to get you, it's a coworker or another department that simply wants your budget or whatever. And we have to put up with those things also. Um, so that's another thing that causes a bad day is when you don't actually get to do your job because you're dealing with the politics of doing your job. Or the process, you know, it doesn't always have to be a political, you know, show down necessarily, but it's, you know, do I really have to spend the next hour and a half doing timesheets or expenses or, you know, five year forecasting, you know, because that's always useful in it. I can't forecast five months accurately, but you want five years. Great. Great.Josh: 30:11 Yeah. So I, I remember being a brand new engineer a long time ago, 20, 20-ish years ago now, and thinking all, all I'll need to know if I can just memorize the OSI model. Like I can have, if I can just memorize the OSI model, it's gonna be a thing. Um, I mean, I, I know the OSI model, I can't remember the last time I had to reference it. Um, but that, that's it. Like sometimes the things that are hard are, are of our own making.Leon: 30:43 I will say that the OSI Model I reference all the time talking about bad days at the office because every tech project I've ever worked on has failed at layers eight, nine and 10 OSI model, which is finance, politics and compliance.Josh: 30:59 YesDoug: 31:00 I've had the benefit of working mostly for myself. So the only political problem I've have is convincing myself to get myself doing the job. But when I did work for a large corp for awhile, I was given a project where I had to go ahead and make this thing work with an existing service. And this existing service was controlled by somebody who was saying that, well, we're going to be replacing this and this was his little area and he didn't want to share it with anybody and because it was going to be replaced, um, I couldn't use his old service, but the new service wasn't going to be ready in time for us to do the rest of it. But he wouldn't give me what I needed to go ahead and use the old service and he wouldn't let me be a Beta site for the new service. So that I would have it. And so here I am and there's no way I can do this thing without using this service. And there's one guy who owns it and it was his,Steven: 31:57 That's why star Trek, uh, is, is, is fantasy. Because having to interact with other human beings to, to get something done doesn't always bring out the rosiest of situations. You, you, you have to, you have to interact with someone and they have other priorities that aren't necessarily aligning with your priorities. Um, heaven forbid that, that you have to have different priorities because what you need to get done, you need to get done now and what they need to get done, they need to get done now. And if those don't align, then it, then that clash is going to happen you, and if it's not happening in the timeframe that you ultimately need it to be bad day popping up immediately without warning.Leon: 32:38 So you're saying the of Star Trek was not the phasers or the tricorder or the faster than light travel, that that's all normal. That's reality. The fantasy was that everyone got along all the time.Steven: 32:48 Yeah, absolutely. Like [laughing] we have phasers now don't we?Josh: 32:51 Well see, I know what we're missing, right? We're, we're missing the obligatory red shirt that, that guy who won't give you access to his, his software. You just pulled a red shirt, you know, over him and you throw them into the meeting because we all know what happens to, you know, the guy wearing the red shirt.Steven: 33:08 I thought Josh was going to go the other way and say you kill the person with the red shirt.Josh: 33:11 I'm Canadian!New Speaker: 33:15 [Inaudible].Josh: 33:16 I'm not that evil yet.Doug: 33:19 He wants them killed, he just won't do it himself.Leon: 33:22 Okay, so one, I think one last thing that I want to talk about as far as it bad days is, um, is when we, the bad day has to do with the next thing we have to do. And I don't mean just like the thing on our tack, task list, but the thing we have to learn, um, you know, just putting that out to everyone who's listening and, and you three, you know, how many times have you resisted learning about the next thing, whether it was cloud or object oriented programming or ITIL or IP version 6 or something like thatSteven: 33:55 All the time. Every day. I don't have time.Leon: 33:59 Okay. So you resist it because like I have enough on my plate.Steven: 34:02 It's usually, it's usually comes down to that just trying to get something new in your knowledge. Bank a is oftentimes budding up against everything else that you have to do. Um, and, and once you set aside the, the, the urge to just ignore it and you actually consume that information, you learn that net new thing. Um, I, I can remember when, when I was doing consulting for, for Citrix projects and having to learn when they, they had just acquired this new company, NetSix, and, and here comes this new, uh, VPN product and it's like, "I'm dealing with virtualization over here. I don't want to deal with a VPN product!" And, and just putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. And next thing you know, like here you go, you've got to learn it. We've got to have a certification in it. There's no, no other way about it. It's like, "Ah, OK, all right, I'll learn it." And then next thing you know, you've got this great new technology you get to incorporate in your, your knowledge stack and you have way more opportunities, uh, that oh, that opened up for you to do more things either from a consulting realm or for your company. You can enable, you know, new capabilities, new functionalities. But we push it aside cause we just don't have timeDoug: 35:20 I was going to say that actually even goes back to some of the, we were talking about in the religious side. I mean there's, I love learning new things, but I want to learn the new stuff that I want to learn. And sometimes what your, the environment that you're in says no, the thing that you need to learn now is x, whatever this, whatever x happens to be, it can be in the IT world for this next thing you need to learn this in the religious world. You really need to get, you need to work on your prayer life, you know? And so people from the outside are telling you, here's what you need to do. It's for me, it's real easy to learn something new if it's something I want to learn. But it's, you know, as Stephen was saying, it's like if it's something you have to learn, you may not get around to it until somebody from the outside goes ahead and sort of cracks the whip a little bit and then won't. But once you've gone ahead and pressed through, it's like, oh, this is great. Yeah.Leon: 36:16 What was I so worried about?Doug: 36:18 Oh, no, I always knew what I was so worried about!Josh: 36:21 Cool. It's interesting because I've built my entire, my entire career off of the phrase, uh, "I don't know". Uh, my, my second job, uh, that I got, I had this, this panel interview in which I was asked a series of questions to which I did not know any of the answers because I had only been in the IT field for, for a professionally, for a year. Um, and as I laughed, they said, you know, is there anything you'd like to say, uh, you know, before we end the interview. And I said, "I'm sorry that I didn't know the things that you asked, but if you're willing to teach me, um, I'd love to learn." And I really think that, that for me, defines what I want to do and what I tried to do in IT. I don't, I don't know everything. I still am, I'm terrible at scripting. I really am. Um, but I can do an awful lot more now than I could five years ago or a year ago. And that's that for me, whether we're talking about a pursuit of an IT lesson or whether we're talking about the pursuit of some, you know, ideology, whether it's physical or mental or spiritual or intellectual, go out and approach it with the, "Hey, I just don't know, like it's hard. Um, and I don't know it yet, but damn it, I'm going to learn." And those are the people for me. You know, we talked about those engineers, those idyllic Star Trek engineers. I would rather take an engineer who said to me, "Josh, I don't know how to do this, but I'm going to go figure it out." And then comes back and says, "Hey, here's what I've got. Let's collaborate. Get it done." To me, that, that is a thing that takes those really hard things to do and makes them so much easier.Steven: 38:06 Completely agree.Leon: 38:07 Okay. So last piece, and this is actually I think where, um, uh, a lot of the learnings, uh, are going to happen. We've talked about bad days, uh, in our non-tech life and we've talked about that days in our tech life. What lessons can we carry or have we carried over from one to the other. It might be something that you knew really well in your tech world that you carried into your religious or ethical or moral life or vice versa. And Josh, I think to the point you just said, um, is a strong one. I think as IT people, we are more prone, we are more comfortable saying, "I don't know that" whether that's "Hey, I don't know, Active Directory" or "I don't know why that that just happened, but I'm going to find out." I think that we are generally speaking, we don't feel emotionally challenged to say things like that. Um, but I think that there's a huge resistance for some people in some cases to say, I don't know, in a religious or you know, ethical or philosophical context. Um, and maybe that's the fear that if I, if I say, I don't know, there may not actually be an answer. And if there isn't an answer to this one question, maybe the entire religious structure is somehow false, which is sort of an irrational fear. But I think that it's one that people have. And so the answer to that is just don't say, I don't know, which doesn't work really well either, but, uh, people fall into that trap.Josh: 39:39 Yeah. So I, ironically, the thing that I, that I did that led me away from my religious observance was to embrace uncertainty. Uh, you know, being Ultra Orthodox, I was so certain that I knew the truth that when I no longer could look at the facts and say that I, that they were true, it was, I had to step away. So my lesson, uh, I'm, and I have to, cause I'm a cheat here. One is to "Embrace the uncertainty" and the other is "Sleep on it." No, no. Like seriously sleep on, I cannot count the number of times where I've spent my entire day banging my head against a problem. And then when, you know, I'm just going to go to bed and then you get up the next morning, you're like, oh, that's how you solve this one. And I don't care if you're talking about IT or if you're talking about, you know, a problem at home or with a colleague or with a friend, or just sleep on it, man. A good night's rest does everyone well.Doug: 40:38 I found that, um, the, one of the things that I learned in coming more from my religious life into my technical life, um, the thing that makes me have the worst days during religious services is watching everybody around me worshiping the way that they worship and it being all about them. And you know, they're just, you know, hands up and whoop-ti-do and all that kind of stuff I'm like, just drives me crazy. Um, but then I realize it's like, okay, but here I am. I am letting their weirdness stand between me and God and I just need to sort of like, stop, roll myself back, let them be them, and then go ahead and have my, uh, my experience with, you know, getting this done, the service. And, when you take that into the IT world, there are people that have got opinions and they're, you know, we gotta do it this way and yeah, everybody's an expert and all this stuff and you're trying to work on a team and I can sit there going in my head, these people are freaking idiots.Leon: 41:42 [Laughing]Doug: 41:43 But I then go ahead and roll it back and say, nope, this is just me. Let's go ahead and work with this and you know, there, but, and I can go ahead and take that tolerance that I have made myself learn in the religious world. Otherwise I would hate my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and bring that so that I can be better on a team. I, I was a terrible team person in my thirties and forties I mean, you know, I got stuff done, but because we'd slam it through and now I'm actually really, I'm good at coaching people and working with them because I know that my tendency is to be judgmental even when it's not justified.Steven: 42:24 Yeah, for me, the, I think the, the biggest lesson from religious nonreligious work standpoint is you just got to view things through a positive lens. Like if you just take and go into your day, I'm not thinking everyone's out to get, you know, not thinking that, uh, that the, you know, that whatever you're going to have to deal with that day is going to be difficult or hard, um, that you know, that is not going to ultimately affect you negatively if you just walk into that situation or that day with, with that positive lens, you're like, you're going to have a better day. But, but as well, everyone else around you is probably gonna have a better day because you're in a better frame of mind. Or at least I know that when I've got a bad day going on or I don't feel you were really great, I'm usually making everyone around me miserable. So if I can avoid that at all costs, I feel like, that's usually something I should, should, should attempt at leastDoug: 43:23 Share the wealth, either positive or negative.Josh: 43:26 Always positive, always positive.Leon: 43:30 So something that, uh, I learned recently. Um, it was an insight from, uh, from my rabbi, Rabbi Davidovich. Um, he, so every morning in the Orthodox Jewish, uh, service, the morning service, uh, you go over the sacrifices, you just sort of read through the text of what the sacrifices are and how they're handled. And right at the very beginning, it talks about how, uh, the priests go in and they take the ashes of yesterday, sacrifice out first. That's what they, that's what they do. And that's right at the beginning of sort of this section of the, of the prayers is, you know, the, the Kohanim, the priests, they go in, they took the ashes and they took them all the way outside the camp and they dumped them. And Rabbi Davidovich's insight to that was, that's a metaphor for how we treat yesterday's experience. Um, that you could have had a horrible, awful, painful, gut wrenching, useless, unproductive day yesterday. And so when you show up the next day for prayer, you might feel like, oh, I just, I can't, what, what, what am I supposed to do? I, I can't have another one like that. And this piece of text is telling you no, no, no. That was yesterday. Take the ashes, dump them outside the camp. They're, they're, they, they don't belong here anymore. Today's prayer has no resemblance. It's an entirely new set of sacrifices and entirely new set of work that is not contingent on or related to yesterday's work in any way. By this, by the way, at the same time, if yesterday was an amazing day and you've got an incredible amount of stuff done and you were really focused and you really had an amazing prayer day, those ashes, they also get dumped outside the camp you that today the, the proof of how today is gonna go is how today is going to go. Nothing about yesterday affects or reflects or is a precursor to how today is going to go. And that insight from the religious context is one that I think is, is something that I can use a lot in, uh, in my it work, whether it's writing or whether it's giving a talk or, uh, Steven, to your point, having a, you know, going in and doing another video. It doesn't matter if yesterday's video was a complete train wreck, you know, flaming dumpster fire today is a different day to record. It might be a different date to record what I did yesterday poorly, all over again because we can do that, but it's, it's not in any way reflective of what happened yesterday. Um, and that allows me to break free or get clear of the bad feeling from the day before.Josh: 46:19 I love that. That is beautiful.Leon: 46:21 Any final words, final comments, final insights that you want to share before we wrap this up?Josh: 46:25 Crossfit is still a cult.Leon: 46:27 [Hysterical laughing]Steven: 46:31 With that, thank you guys for having me this time. I, Leon, thank you for staying on me to ultimately get me get beyond here and the do, uh, do one of these sessions with you guys. Um, I, I will definitely try to make it, uh, more in the future.Doug: 46:46 And my final insight is if you're having a bad day, it's probably you.Leon: 46:53 Nah, I'm good!tDoug: 46:53 Nine Times out of 10, if I'm having a bad day, it's me and I just need to, I mean, and the good thing about that is if I'm having a bad day, nine times out of 10, it's me. And if there's one thing I can change, it's me.Josh: 47:06 Thanks for making time for us this week to hear more of Technically Religious. Visit our website, TechnicallyReligious.com where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect with us on social media.Leon: 47:19 A wise person once said, don't let a bad day make you feel bad about yourself.Steven: 47:24 That was Grover Grover. Grover, from Sesame Street.

Over the last 2 decades, web development businesses pop up and die off faster than you can say "HTML".  But, building and growing a development company that stands the test of time is much harder to do than start one. In this episode you'll hear how Adrian Rodriguez from Anchored Web Solutions (https://www.anchoredweb.com/) has been able to not only sustain his web development business over the long haul but grow it into a company that serves private and government customers in one of the biggest counties in the United States. ----- Automated Transcript Below Dean Soto 0:00 Hey, this is Dean Soto, founder of freedominfiveminutes.com. And we're here again with another freedom in five minutes podcast episode. Today's topic is this perfecting, scaling, a web development business, that and more coming up. All right, well, welcome, welcome. Welcome, everybody to this episode, really cool episode super excited about this one we get to be, we get to talk about something that's near and dear to my heart, because I used to have one of these, but it was not nearly as good as, as this gentleman who we're going to be interviewing. So I get the pleasure of having Adrian Rodriguez, on this podcast episode. He is the founder of anchored web, anchored web.com. And he has he can't wait to talk about what he does that what he's been doing. But he has a really cool Web Development Agency. That's that's very, very, very, I want to say that it's, he's able to create these very simple but but powerful websites that have been in the commercial, as well as the government side of things. And so I just want to say a warm welcome to Adrian Adrian, how's it going, my man, Adrian Rodriguez 1:26 very good. Dean, thank you for having me. And it's pleasure to be here. And Dean Soto 1:30 so let's talk about this. So I found you and reached out to you to be on this podcast, mainly because you you know Juma and Ed, which is always near and dear to my heart, I used to use Juma a lot. And on top of that your sites are, they have a they have a very beautiful yet very simple look to them. And, and so I just wanted to to reach out to you and have you come on to talk about how you got started, how you're able to do what you do, and and you've made some very, very big impacts, even on the government side of things, which is very, very hard to do, which we'll talk about in just a little bit have a cool little surprise for everyone to hear. It just it's it's something that was that blew me away. So how in the heck did you get started with web development in the first place? Adrian Rodriguez 2:27 Well, I mean, if you know, there's, there's a few different timeframes in my life that I could go into that kind of explain how I got into web development. I guess the first proper website that I ever worked on was in about 1996, or 1997. I probably aging myself, but I was at the time. And my friend had a band called 41 height. And he had just started it in high school. But we were best friends at the time. We still are moving to France now. And so I just put together some HTML code that I had taught myself over the summer previously, and show him something that not really in a way of trying to get him to have this as his website. It was just something I thought this could be an interesting direction for your site. He took a look at that. So yeah, let's I want that. Can that be my website? Wow. So I said, Oh, I guess yeah, I mean, it does work. And so that was his website. And it was, at the time, there wasn't many websites in general. I mean, there were a lot, but there weren't a lot of people doing it. And so when we put it up online, we had things like samples of his music on there. And of course, at the time, there's this thing called frames that nobody does now in HTML, but it was all about frames. So you'd have like a frame was like a little mini window within a window on your website, we have all these frames worked out. It was like the big, you know, trend at the time. It was fun. And I wish I wish I wish I had some sort of a screenshot of that website back then. Because all the way those are from those years ago till today, I still maintain that website. And it's obviously got a lot of changes since then. Been what I did back then, or at least show other people look, I was doing this Netscape. Dean Soto 4:20 Oh, my gosh, that's awesome. That's crazy. That'd be I was gonna say we do you still have just frames for that website? Adrian Rodriguez 4:28 I know, well, I just I feel like somewhere, maybe there's a fight because they tend to keep things you know, organized even 20 years ago. So I feel like maybe there was something I, I have somewhere that on a disk or maybe a floppy drive, maybe in the garage, but I don't know. But I will say that it was funny, because that was not something I was trying to do at the time I get into web development. And I really just did it for fun. And then about 2007 2000, an eight, I started doing website for myself. Because I was a journalist before that before I before today's business, which is a good web, I was a journalist. And so I sort of saw the way journalism was moving, which was it away from print journalism into the digital age, I didn't think the industry was moving fast enough. So I had all these great ideas about putting embedded maps in in articles or crowdsourcing, journalism and things like that. So I put together this website, while these cool tools and things that I just thought were really neat. And so what happened was, even though I really felt like that was a passion project, for me, it wasn't making a lot of money, partly because I didn't think journalism should make money, in a sense. So there's the whole discussion there. But I wasn't really trying to make money advertising way. So I had to make money. Somehow, since I was doing this, I just decided to take the leap and start my own business. Well, I wasn't really paying much attention, but people would say, Hey, I like your website. But you know, that piece there that you have on there where the event calendar automatically adds to a dynamic nap and and already changes colors and things like that. I wonder if you could do that for me? And I would say well, I guess I mean, what do you want me to build you some sort of a program for money or something where you get a money for it or something? And then it started just kind of like, I at one point, it was like six months or nine months into these calls. I said, Wow, I really obviously have missing the boat on something that's happening. I started leaning into that. And I found Yeah, that was very much needed service that people would call me for. So. Yeah. So yeah, then I started kind of evolving. And eventually, I found it a third web solutions in 2009 2010, somewhere in there. And so we're coming up to the 10 year anniversary of my business. So I'm really proud of that. And I'm really excited about how things have evolved since those early days of not even realizing this was a business. Dean Soto 7:11 Great. That is awesome, man. Well, congratulations. That's awesome. Yeah, I love that. I love that story, especially when it's like, you have all these people who are kind of slapping you upside the head saying saying, Hey, can you do this for me? Can you do this for me? Can you do this for me? You're like, yeah, maybe there's a market here. I'm not sure I've only been asked by 20 people. Adrian Rodriguez 7:33 Right, and I, you know, I do feel like a lot of the care that type of that start was interesting. Because even today, you know, I don't see myself as a hard sell hard salesman, you know, the type of person who's really going to push for you to sign on the dotted line or anything, I tend more to be more of a consultant or a collaborator with people. So if somebody calls me and they are interested in my services, that's great. And I really appreciate that tone. So but I also don't take that call with some sort of agenda. Well, this person's calling me, so therefore I need to make money off of them. Said, I just sort of give them the time that they have to tell me about what they have going on. Usually, it's a problem. And I'm sure usually I can solve it somehow, with what I do. But sometimes it doesn't make sense for me to help. I mean, you know, I could, I could do a lot of things. But I sometimes I find myself asking people will call me if they've tried just doing the Facebook page or just trying an Instagram account. So sometimes, you know, and I can help them set those things up. But they're really easy to do for a lot of people. So I mean, most people have that stuff these days anyway. Yeah. So that's kind of like, an interesting characteristic of my businesses. I'm sort of like, the soft sale, I guess. Yeah. Dean Soto 8:57 Which is cool. We got to talk about that prior to to get in on the podcast and how important that is. And I love that because, yeah, you get you, you know, right, when right away when someone's trying to sell you something like, That happens a lot. Adrian Rodriguez 9:14 Well, I do understand that people do not like to be sold anything, but they do love to shop. So you know, if you can change the dynamic with people to where they feel like they are having a shopping experience, that is a lot different than if they're being sold something No, yeah, there's some subtleties in there. But I definitely don't want I want to present the menu and give them the chance to kind of run the show. Because I'll be doing enough running of the show. Once we get started, I'll be doing the project, I'll be building all the technical stuff, you know, putting it all together for them. So love that. I love that. Dean Soto 9:50 So I'm so encouraged web, you'd mentioned on the when we were talking prior to this, that there's a there's a reason for the name? Adrian Rodriguez 10:01 Yes. Dean Soto 10:02 So what is why Why did you call it anchored web? Adrian Rodriguez 10:07 Well, you know, when I started my business, the first thing, you know, I know the very first thing but one of the things I was interested in was making sure I created a brand that reflected the kind of business I was going to do also gave some people, people who saw a reason to think about it beyond just glancing at it and moving on. And I wanted it to also be available as a domain name online and as a property on Facebook, Instagram. So I mean, one of the things I do when I help new businesses that are starting out is I tell them, we need to come up with a good name, right? But it needs to not only be a good name, but it also needs to be available on Facebook and Twitter's when you see things like Twilio, or you know Asana, all these different web apps, Google even, you know, maybe not that so much. But a lot of these names are kind of weird. A lot of it has to do with the fact that there's just not that many names that are out there. And yeah, so incurred web came along. Because first of all, my I've been programming since I taught myself the program when I was seven. And the internet came along. In the mid 90s. And I, I saw that there was a huge power of the internet. And so I was already learning about the internet from a philosophical standpoint. And one of the things that I learned about the internet early on, and it's kind of stuck with me is that the internet is very powerful. Because it it does something that books can do for instance, which is you can link from one page to another. And even though that sounds like a very simple concept that hyper linking from one area of knowledge to another area is very powerful. And you can do so many things with them, it's actually built the internet. So in web code that is called an anchor tag, and it's represented with a little brackets and there's a in there, that means I'm going to give you a link or it tells a browser show this link here. So the anchor tag is really the essence of the internet, in my you know view of it. So anchored web is a double entendre that not only speaks to the fact that I understand that the essence of the internet is the linking between different pages, but also that one thing that I found is that a lot of web developers, at least at the time when I started and it probably still the case, to some extent, they kind of would be a younger person who would be really excited about putting together websites, but then would maybe next year, they're excited about being in a band or maybe then they're getting started college or getting out of college. So I found that a lot of times I would be approached by people who say I had a web web person and that person, I can't even call them anymore, I don't know where they are or they're not interested anymore. And so anchored web solutions is meant to also speak to the fact that I'm a reliable, steady, responsible and knowledgeable expert for clients. And so anchor web solutions, it speaks for both. So, you know, again, if you can come up with a name for your business, and it can kind of have multiple meanings that are wrapped up in one, it's great because somebody ever asked you like you do a whole spiel that sounds impressive. And when they talk about Dean Soto 13:33 No, it's, that's actually really cool. I get because, um, because so for a so with my business, I had the name pro sulim, which was and it literally for years, almost a decade, I had personal them, and I still use it for my kind of b2b business to business side of things. However, nobody knows what that is. It was it was I picked it because I couldn't think of anything else that didn't have that that that had a that did have a domain and that it basically no one was going to ever think of at all, but it did not. Nobody knows what that is. And that was a huge mistake. And it it it literally cost me now thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. Because because they don't even know what it what you have to sit there explaining it. So it's not going to just grab someone's attention or anything like that. And so, so yeah, it's just that alone. Having that, that having that good brand name like you like you have, you know, what it what you already get these images of what it's supposed to be? Right? Adrian Rodriguez 14:50 Right. Exactly. To me, I believe, you know, before I was a programmer, in my current career, I was a journalist. And I was a writer. So words and how how words fit together was really important to me and still is. So I do feel like, yes, you the words you use the name of your company will imprint something in somebody's mind, you know, even if it's unintentional. So it could be that it's confusing could be that it's hard to spell. It could be that it sounds like another word or maybe start with something that another word and all those things to me, they kind of, you know, I'm not going to say that any business name is not potentially good. After all, we have things like eBay, as I said, all these crazy names for for businesses, and they, they some of them do break through and become mainstream known entities. Yeah. So I wouldn't ever say that, you know, anything you pick is not worth trying, if you will love it. But, you know, for me, I was really interested in making sure people understood what they were reading and kind of could derive some sense of an understanding of it. Dean Soto 16:00 Yeah. Oh, no, I love love. I just, yeah, I love that. Because because there's someone like me, I'm more of a systems like behind the scenes guy. And I never really put an importance on that at all up front. And if I flipped it around, it would have been, there would have been, it would have been a lot easier. Right. And so so it just cool. It's, it's just neat seeing that, that was so important to you. Because literally, I had to I had, I had not only did I have the opportunity cost, but I ended up having to have someone help me do that and pay them to to help me to brand and help me to do all that stuff. Because I didn't put an importance on it up front. And so that's it just is really cool that that that you did that. So with. So with Ingrid web right now. So what walk me through the process of how how you actually run your business, when it comes to you, I'm a new prospect, I just came to you, I need help with a website. In fact, let's just do the the common, I had this guy over here. And he wasn't very good. And he wasn't dependable yada, yada, yada. I need I need help. What do I do? Adrian Rodriguez 17:27 Well, you know, the first thing I want to do is understand a little bit about the person that I'm talking to and a business or organization that that they're representing. So it's not, to me, it's not a small part of the process to kind of get a sense a little bit about, about the background. So it could be that they are, they're in need of something that day, because something fell through and they just look me up and they follow me and they're saying it's an emergency, I need to something on my website, or else I'm in trouble for something. Well, that's fine. And I can try to get those things done. But usually I can take a few minutes to say okay, so tell me about your business. How did you sort of like what we're doing right now you're telling me you're asking me about my business? It's kind of what I do. Because I think businesses about relationships. And if I don't understand where they're coming from, or if I don't think that they are interested in where I'm coming from, but I'm not sure that we're going to be a good fit. That's, I get along well, with a lot of people like Dean Soto 18:32 just with just like with that, for example, like with that process are you? A lot of because a lot of I know a lot of web companies, I know a lot of companies in general, myself included. So back in the day, and I'm getting gotten a lot better at this is that what happens if it's not a good fit? If you feel like you know, this person is just not going to be like, what do you do? What do you do in that particular situation? Adrian Rodriguez 18:57 Well, you know, it's, it's hard for me to hell, if somebody is, I mean, it's, I'm not going to take your call, and then I don't see myself concluding during the middle of that call that this is not a fit. There have been times where I have told people, you know, I appreciate that you're calling me and stuff or that we're talking about it, but I think it's a good fit. And so usually what I would do is I would try to figure out so safe, where the reason why we would not be a good fit would be because they have a different idea about how much it should cost or what the value is what I do, or their timeline is different than what I can manage things like that, where it's more of an incompatibilities for practical reasons. If it was just a personal way compatibility, I don't I get along with people pretty well that I even you know, I'm actually good with working with people were very challenging personalities. So I don't think it would be that but yeah, so usually, that's what I'm trying to suss out as well. What are you looking for? Well, I need a website. Okay, when you need it right now? And how much are you willing to pay? $20? Well, let's see, you know, I still wouldn't you know, if somebody said to me, I need a website, and I only have 20 bucks, what do you got for me? I'm not I don't need the $20 per se. But I would probably say, well, that's interesting, I think you could do these things. Maybe you shouldn't pay me. But if you're really at that level, you should probably you could do this that. But um, so what i what i what I'm looking for, though, is there's and this is where again, I say it's about relationships, because even though I'm a very skilled and experienced web developer, one of the things about me is, as you can kind of hear from my background, I didn't work, maybe it's not obvious, I didn't go to school, formerly to learn programming, a lot of what I know, and everything I do, which is for June was sites and WordPress, and HTML, and all these other I can be Davis, database management, and SEO and all that good stuff. But I picked all the stuff up on my own over the years. And I feel like I probably could say that I have some level of education about it at this point, but certainly experience. But I do want my clients to understand that I, I am a unique, at least Unknown Speaker 21:35 I have my Adrian Rodriguez 21:36 own, I created my own path to where I am today. So if if there's something that pops out that maybe a educated, formerly educated programmer should know, I may not know that thing. But it's not because I can't understand it. It may be that I just haven't encountered in the last 10 or 20 years, I've probably encountered it all. Yeah, or most things. But that's one of those things where I kind of want to tell people, hey, so what I do is I solve problems for you. And I usually I learned to do it in the most efficient and, and proper way as possible. But it isn't 100% because I can't go back to a textbook that I read in college about how to do that. So. So that's what I want them to understand about me. And as long as they're like, hey, well, that's great. I mean, you seem like you know what you're talking about, and we're putting our trust into you. Yeah, great. And then then I can start looking at whether they're trustworthy, and whether I can put trust in them to pay the bills and stuff like that, or keep up with me, things like that. So, so the things that I'm really looking for, you know, actually, this morning was doing a bunch of the cold calling, as well. That was really interesting. Let's talk about that. Dean Soto 22:55 Because, okay, everyone, obviously, every single business needs that as so need you to do some kind of sales, marketing, things like that. What's your what's your what's your sales and marketing strategy? So it sounds like you do some some cold calling, like, give me an idea of how that goes? Adrian Rodriguez 23:14 Yes, well, okay, so cold calling is one of those things that you have to go in with the right mindset. Otherwise, you can feel really bad after a short amount of time. So the idea that I started with is that the rate of success, I mean, depending on how you define success, but the rate of success is generally, and this is not a hard number, this is like in my head so that I can approach it of a mental state that works is like 3% or 123 percent out of what I call 100 people, maybe three of them will become a website, me maybe just one or not even that. So yeah, what I do is I have all I have my sources going to get it business listings from and then I call them one after the other and I, I, I, I have a certain pitch. But the first and foremost thing I'm trying to do is find out if they have a website, or are looking for a website, what value do they put on a website in their mind at least and then if they are interested in getting into a conversation about it. And so for me, at least with my approach is not to go from never talk to this person report to the selling, or to signing on the dotted line. It's having that conversation, getting to know all of these people out here. And if they're interested in will have further conversations, and I'll plug them into my customer relationship management system that lets me follow up in a week or two weeks or six months, or whatever it is. So if I talk to somebody, they say, you know, I am interested in just getting off the ground. And I really don't need a website. I might need one in six months, but I'm not worried about it right now. Yeah. Again, I'm a I'm an easygoing guy. So I feel great. All right, well, just remember these things about me that you can remember, hopefully you take my info down, I will call you back anymore. If that works for you, or I will call you back in August. And like I like it that you Dean Soto 25:25 frame that that way too. Because I've been guilty of it with my with my my cold calling, warm calling in and so on of just saying Okay, no problem. Thanks. And yeah, it's not framed as in, I am going to call you march, or I'm going to call you in April, and see how things are going. Because now you're not really a bother, you're, you're literally and if they say okay, they've given you permission. And it's a much different frame, obviously, they can completely ignore you. But at the same time, you're going to have a much higher success rate. I would imagine doing that. Adrian Rodriguez 26:02 Yeah, a little bit more, because I look at it as planting seeds, more so than you know, making sales or making a touchdown. So the metaphor I use is planting seeds. So if I let somebody know about me, and they seem receptive to the idea, even if you're just being nice, at least they got it, they gave me a chance and see where I am. And then I always plan for that at the end where I say, you know, we're going to have a follow up with not whether you like it or not, but we're going to, I'm going to talk with you, if that's okay with you at x point in the future. Yeah, so even if I like this morning, I one of the people I football, it just so happened that she knew one of my clients. And so there was a folly in between us or in common with us. And so that totally greases the wheels or whatever, it totally helps when they go oh. Now I know you're somebody. But she was I feel very interested by the end of that call. She had some other things that she had to, you know, think about or whatever, which is fine. But she said, I'll give you a call in like a week. Right? She said that to me. So I you know, I said to me, but what I told her, and this was somebody who already is interested, already committed to call me back. I said, if I don't hear back from you, in a week, I'll maybe I'll follow up. If you don't mind on Thursday, or something like that. She said, Oh, yeah, great. And so again, we're sort of already in that collaborative mode that we need to be in, if I'm going to work on her website anyway. Yeah. Like, Hey, I'm not trying to tell you what to do. You're your own person. And you know, after all, I'm I'm hoping to help you out. But I have my end of the bargain, of course, I want to selling a website, or I want to be able to make money. So if I don't hear back from you, you can expect that and if you don't ask me, then maybe at least at that point, you kind of have the idea that i'm i'm not just calling and seeing if you're interested, I'm also working with you, and then going with you to that, so you can take it. And anytime you want to work with with me, then our I appreciate that, you know, I never want to sit there and think well, I'm such an established successful business, that people are knocking down my door, and I don't have to do anything, I just wait for them to come in. And it kind of happens a lot. When you you become successful, you have a lot of referrals, but I never let that tell. That's why I do cold calls, I have plenty of business. But I like to always have more and more of these little seeds that go out and get planted so that they can come to fruition. And in three months, six months, two years, I had I had a client emailed me this morning, who is a local politician here. asked me if we could get started on on a new website. And this was somebody that I hadn't talked to in four years, I think maybe three or four year yeah. And so it was just one of those things where I always six months or a year at a time, I would kind of know her just letting her know. I still around, I'm still doing things. And I here's the latest and I still think about you not like that. But I mean, I still, you know you're not you're not forgotten. And I just think it helps a lot because there she is calling me up or emailing me and asking me, how's it been going? Okay, so you're looking for a new website. Community. love that. I love that. So, Dean Soto 29:43 so kind of going into this one particular case that I wanted to I wanted to share. Yeah. I want to make sure Okay, cool. I have this so you share it an audio from from within me from actually my Fresno County Sheriff. Who the person who was interviewing her was it was it was really surprising to hear what they said about the Fresno County, the sheriff's a website. So two things real, real quick, I'm going to ask you the first and then I'm going to ask you the second and I'm going to play this thing. One, how in the heck did you even have the opportunity to build the Fresno kids to Fresno County Sheriff's that I mean that that's a pretty big area, and it's government to very big thing like difficult things to get? How in the heck did you do that? So that's, that's question number one, ask question number two right after that. Adrian Rodriguez 30:49 Sure. Well, okay, so that was Yes, that was a, that was one of the that is one of my biggest clients. Now you can answer the sheriff's office came about, interestingly, an interesting story. So my, my first connection to the sheriff's office was that I wasn't the newspaper journalist. Before I was a, I was a programmer and I had been reading a story about a company that was a tech company, a satellite internet technology company here in the valley. And so I kind of find these interesting technology companies that that were under the radar, I guess, and I would bring them to light in my in my reporting. And so that was really fun. And I would, I would make a good impression for some reason or another. So one of the companies for this company, was a husband and wife and the wife was the sister of the public information officer. So the reason why this is it took about a year of toss with you over there just to for him to understand and what I could do, how I could do it with Alan might be able to structure a deal. And so what they needed and what I ended up being able, the reason why it ended up happening was what they decided they needed was they wanted a website that was not only fully secure and ready at that level, but they also needed they were they were interested in doing was having a media outlet that was not didn't necessarily compete in the market. The first will be or was the local newspaper, but they didn't want their clothes to only be found in a newspaper reporter Oh, yeah. So if they wanted to talk about crime that happened, and they wanted to talk about whatever they wanted to say they wanted to have a platform online, that could serve as a media outlet from their from their agency. So my background in journalism came to me in a huge advantage for me, because I could, I could describe to them and I could write out a proposal like like, technically create kind of website that would produce the media outlet impact on our community. So I created a site. On top of that they had a lot of other requirements, because that was one of the big ones that made them sort of say, Okay, if we work with you, we're going to get anywhere else. Dean Soto 33:33 Yeah. That's cool. I mean, and I also like a year for, for a government organization. That is that is pretty quick, if you think Yeah. Adrian Rodriguez 33:49 Well, you know, and then the guy who hired me, he's, he's retired in the last four years or so three or four years. So I think he was wanting to create a legacy for his time. At Yeah, sheriff's office, at least in terms of that department. So there was some urgency there a little bit. But, you know, yes, it's a short amount of time. And it's a long amount of time, from different perspective. But definitely, I also had to qualify to actually work there. I mean, I was hired as an independent contractor, but I have taken a lie detector tests, and background checks and things like that. So there's a lot of security there. So that also helps with your if I don't have a record, I guess. You could find you to be trustworthy, we can work with like big agencies. But you know, I know much of my like, like that, too. So much of what I do has to do with the fact that I have a writing background that explains all these things. And it becomes not just me personally convincing people but what a document I created. Also some convincing people and I don't have either you Dean Soto 35:00 Yeah. And then on top of that, is you know how from that, from that experience, you know, how people digest information visually. And that's a that's a huge thing. And in fact, in this particular thing that I'm going to play that was that was a big that was totally, totally unsolicited. So where is this? This quote front? Like, where's this, where's the, Adrian Rodriguez 35:27 that's a radio show. It's called Chris Daniel in the morning. And it's just a, it's a regular show for a long time. And so they'll interview the sheriff once in a while, and it just was funny because somebody was listening to it. And then we know that it was on the air. So I went really quickly to the, to the web, and I went with an archive of that. That clip and I cut it out audacity, maybe Dean Soto 36:03 I can tell that audio is like, awesome. So so I'm gonna I'm gonna play this real quick. Now keep in mind you listening to the context that this is a radio show host. And this is a government website. And if you put those two things together one no radio show hosts is good a good a good at literally drool over a government website, because government websites tend to be really, really just absolutely horrid. horrendously bad, and nobody likes them. And there, there's a ton of money spent on these websites. And they end up being really crappy. So take a listen at this, and it just tells you tells you how good not just the the builders of the of the actual sites, but also how the information is digested, check this out. Unknown Speaker 36:54 And by the way, where we at Unknown Speaker 36:57 backlog these days on CCW, we're doing much better. And in fact, an update on that Christmas is the latest, we the process is actually even easier, because now you can actually apply on line, you don't have to print out the forms and bring them in and it actually eliminate one of the interviews, you can apply online, I get your appointment automatically when you do that on our website, it Fresno share.org o RG and you click on the second amendment icon and the application process will walk you Unknown Speaker 37:33 right through it online. And Unknown Speaker 37:35 speaking of that website, I've got to throw this out before we get to our next call sugar. Unknown Speaker 37:42 Perhaps honestly got it, you know, I love you. But this is this is like you have a government website like I have ever seen in terms of the ease of access. And Holy cow, you start doing some of those pull downs, how many things are out there to keep you safer to get people behind bars, behind bars and so many other thing. It's just it's everything house watches. I don't know what the reading posse console the questions for CCW, the Explorer program. I mean, it just goes on and on. I don't know Unknown Speaker 38:17 who the people are that are involved in keeping this thing up to speed. But it's got to be a lot because Unknown Speaker 38:23 for as much as you have on there. It's not. Unknown Speaker 38:26 It will. Thank you, Chris, we have a great website. And again, it's all one word.org o RG and there's so many resources and kudos to Chris Curtis who really started the process he worked with Unknown Speaker 38:41 a doing as our consultant and he's still with us and Tony body is keeping it going. And it really is a great website. I'm really proud of that app. Dean Soto 38:50 That's crazy. So absolutely crazy. Just thinking of that radio show hosts, these are just in general. Why are they you never hear that first government site. So yeah, it was really cool to hear that like, like, what what am I like? Next question with that is is what is that? How is that like helped your business in general? Working with government agencies? How did you do? So I, we talked about that. But do you? Do you see yourself doing more for local government agencies like that? Adrian Rodriguez 39:29 Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, I I pitched a few ideas. I was sort of in the running for a little bit of time with the the Fresno Police Department on the basis of the fact that every sheriff's officers Yeah. So there's there's that I can't say that I've done a lot of political some websites I've done politician in this area. totally open to it. But I am, I'm talking to the city of focus about a project right now that might be doing it up for their official. But there's a couple things there in I'm also working right now currently with Travis County, on a overhaul. And that should be launching. And so yeah, you know, it's helped so much, because there's just so much that is said by by telling the people that I work with the sheriff says that I, at least to a law enforcement agencies, work with large government. And it isn't untrue. It's totally true that working with law enforcement officials is not as easy to work with them, because they're used to tackling people on the street. But they tend to, if they want something, they don't mind being loud about it or being forced, you know, it's part of their job description. So for me, to be able to be diplomatic with them is something that I find something I'm good at. And I think that all those things are wrapped up in saying, Hey, I work with this shirt on their website, and I kept it up all these years. So yeah, that's, that's how it's helping me. And in terms of doing government jobs, yeah, it is monumentally harder, because you have, there's so much ready to deal with. And, you know, there's bidding and things like that to do. But if you understand it, to me, it's just a scaling. Same thing I do. When I bring my phone calls, I do a call to discuss private business and sort of like, let me understand their situation and what you guys are trying to do. And if there's a way I can solve it, I will let you know. And so for the sheriff's office, or any agency that I work with small businesses, small business, it might be like, hey, you give me this content. And I'll be done with the website, and in a week or two, maybe every week, and then we're launching the website, you know, it's not that hard, right. But you know, it's the same approach was taken for a large agency this week, it can be nine months or something, you know, totally. But I just lay it out. And I say, Hey, this is what would it take, and this is what I'll have to end with, he's going to be our challenges. And these are things I'm not good at that I might, you know, I might not be good enough to do these things. And then just by laying it all out there in a very precise way, gives them the champion for finding out in their head. And like I said, there's a lot of environments that government agencies have, but it's not impossible to get into those actually, really, stay authentic to the goal. I love it. I love that. Dean Soto 42:37 So always ask this question. It is the the anchor question to the podcast, no pun intended, no pun intended. So what is one five minute mindset shift or decision or something that really was it didn't take much time for you to actually say, Hey, I'm doing this, and that has delivered just a massive amount of results for you? Adrian Rodriguez 43:06 Well, there's a lot of things like that, you know, and but I think something that I look at is, when I decided some years ago to change my just my businesses made a huge difference. It only took me a few minutes to kind of realize I need to do things differently. And then I started putting those in action. And it made such a difference. And that is that I used to say me, when I first started business, I was very as I was described to me, I got into it for journalism reasons. When people asked me to do websites, I was sort of sort of used by the idea that, like software, I was just doing it for fun. So for me, it was about when I first started my web development business, the first thing I was trying to you were saying, Hey, I don't like to nickel and dime, people, I only want to sell a website people at a, at a railing at a price to simply see that we're at a high price tag, you know, I'm just I was very, just very against business, the type stuff that I just wanted to do my cleaning. And yes, money was important. And we all know that. So I knew that hadn't been part of it. But I was really trying to avoid money. Yeah. But at some point, again, all these things are coming along. For me, I realized some years ago that I needed to change my thought process about what it would what I was calling legally and diamond people was not necessarily the only way to look at it. And and so now I look back and with my current businesses, what I do now is I don't focus so much on the website, project rice, as much of what I do on the ongoing continue continuing services. what that translates into from a top down more residual income more passive than Unknown Speaker 45:14 having to work work, right. Adrian Rodriguez 45:15 So I enjoy working for the money and going out finding getting incompatibility, Vincent, get a website, things like that. That's all enjoyable. But when I decided to change my attitude about small amounts of money, it it really opened a lot of things up. Because really, I work with customers that are nickel and dimed. It's that conversation. Hey, you built my website. And Something's Weird About it now. Unknown Speaker 45:48 And then I'd have to say, Adrian Rodriguez 45:51 we're Who are you again? Dean Soto 45:56 awkward conversation. I totally I used to do web development. I only know that like I've had people where, where it's been like two or three years. They do they do that? And I'm like, sometimes they're just like, okay, I'll fix it if it's really quick. Adrian Rodriguez 46:12 Right? Yes. Because sometimes I've had that moment where they say, this is how the conversation went. Now, I don't know if this was one of the conversations, I haven't maybe realized I hadn't changed my mind. But the conversation you're having is like, Hi, Adrian, Adrian, you build my website. I really liked what you did. And now it's doing something weird. And I'd say, well, what's happening is I'm looking at your website, anger, your SSL, your beard and your your database storage is the I say all these things. Yeah, I don't know anything, what you're saying? Are you saying that? You gave me this thing called the website? No, well, you know, the world changes, and Google changes their algorithm. And so then they would say, Well, I, how do I lead me? You just always know how to make my sights better Enter. And I go, Well, I always make it better, I guess. And then I just realized, okay, that's not they don't want that. And I didn't want that they didn't want their websites, they go down. And I want to have a weird conversation, right? Explain to them a bunch of stuff about why their website changing first. It's just the nature of websites, right? So it was just a paradigm shift for me to say, No, this is a living, breathing thing. And, and realistically, we need to work on this. The work start with you. And it didn't just change in the sense that I changed the business model when I was under. And actually I am. I also, it also forced me to get into all the web services that are that are very important, like SEO and Google AdWords, things like that. So I kind of knew that stuff before and a half no one global competition for AdWords. But But I was it was really trying to push that end of the deal. I was really happy to be able to make make cool websites. I love it. I love it, man. Dean Soto 48:14 So how so how can people reach out to you if they need to get a site if they need to? Do any update their site? If they're, if their last web developer was suddenly left? And they need something? How can people get ahold of you? And so that they can work with you? Adrian Rodriguez 48:31 Yeah, and all the ways they usually would that mean, my website is at he or he web.com, my phone numbers 559-372-6887, which you can text me as well probably want to email me first, go to my website, just so that I can call me again. And yeah, I'm on Facebook and Twitter and, and all that good stuff right now on Google, I have a, an offer available to people that last till middle of July, that gives them a free month of service, if they sign up in the way that you sign up there. So I'm really really right now what I'm wanting to do is is get some more, what I'm what I'm looking to do right now is offer my like world class, enterprise level services verse really small companies as well. And I really want to try to get that level of professionalism and be able to package it and make it a smaller price. That small businesses can also use it because I would I have these great services that are larger scale, and I have have my basic services that are for the small scale, I'm trying to breed skills, so that way I can offer good value to businesses. So right now I'm doing doing included is with hosting and domain names or hosting service or domain name, SSL, SEO, things like that. So if you if you need anything with the web, even if you just have, if you call me and you get me into a conversation, I really, really do my best to try to give you as much information as I can and teach you about what you need to do. For me, my business philosophy in terms of technology and kind of things that I built or, or any any new innovative system that let people have had more information available then so they can make better decisions on a daily basis with the right way. So I've worked with nonprofits a lot on like things like click to share, which would help help people finding food opportunities, like maybe at the end of the day, Starbucks has to throw away all your bakery products, those sorts of things being listed on the website in a lane. by foot, he said help help feed the homeless for experts. So those kinds of projects are ones that I really like lab dashboards, because I care a lot about our community as well. So but in general, if you call me about anything, I'm going to do my best to help you try to help you understand and what I understand about the internet, internet, to me, this is all real funding. And I really just appreciate the fact that I get to give a living. And so I like I enjoy it. Unknown Speaker 51:30 That is awesome. Dean Soto 51:33 I love it, man. And it's true. With with us being on the phone, I could tell how sincere you are I We've been in business for I've been as almost a decade as well. And you very quickly tell when somebody is is the type where they're just, they're good. They want to give value. And so when you were on the phone with me, when we were just talking back and forth, you can tell when someone wants to make a possibly make that sale, and so on. And so for you is like, if it happens, it happens. We're just gonna talk because we talked to we were talking for like 45 minutes or something like that. Yeah. And so it's really, really cool what you're what you do and how you do it. Because you can tell that you really care about the other person's well being. And it's it's pretty awesome. So So yeah, guys, don't first off. Thank you so much for being on. I appreciate it. Thank you. Adrian Rodriguez 52:28 Yeah, really appreciate you holding me down and asked me to be on that. You know, it's really great. I love loving what you're doing. Dean Soto 52:36 Thanks, man. Yeah, it's It was my pleasure, for sure. And so if you want to just definitely seriously massively increase your web presence, go check out a good web.com anchored web.com You can also give Adrian a call. And that is the end of our show. It was awesome. It was just I love the tip that Adrian shared the especially when it comes to the cold calling that was kind of an unexpected little treat. So I appreciate you sharing that because because that's that's something that every business has to do at some point in time, whether it's now or in the future, and nobody likes doing it. Yes. Just having that little reframe, so I appreciate that. But But yes, this is the end of the podcast episode. If you want more of these episodes episodes, definitely go to Google type in freedom in five minutes podcast, or you can go to freedom in five minutes. com You can also if you want a virtual systems architect that will take what you're doing right now. document everything step by step, go check out freedom in five minutes calm but for now. We will see you on the next freedom in five minutes episode.

What if there were a guide written to help you not only communicate better with your partner, and experience love more deeply - but that would also heal the triggers that keep creating conflict between you and your partner? As it turns out - that guide exists! This week, our guests are Harville Hendrix Ph.D. and Helen LaKelly Hunt Ph.D, authors of the classic book, Getting the Love You Want which was just updated and re-released. Both are internationally-respected couple's therapists, educators, speakers, and New York Times bestselling authors. Together, they have written over 10 books with more than 4 million copies sold, and created Imago Relationship Therapy, a leading tool for helping couples bridge the gaps and deepen their connection. In addition, Harville appeared on the Oprah Winfrey television program 18 times! This week, hear them reveal how they have put Imago into practice in their own relationship - which will give you some helpful direction on making this work practical for your life and relationship as well. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Our sponsor today is Blinkist. Blinkist is the only app that takes the best key takeaways and the need-to-know information from thousands of nonfiction books and condenses them down into just 15 minutes that you can read or listen to. Go to Blinkist.com/ALIVE to start your free 7-day trial. Resources: Visit Helen LaKelly Hunt and Harville Hendrix’s website to learn more about their work. Pick up your copy of Helen LaKelly Hunt and Harville Hendrix’s book, Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/imago3 to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Helen LaKelly Hunt and Harville Hendrix. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Past Episodes: Please check out our earlier episodes with Helen and Harville: Episode 22: Essential Skills for Conscious Relationship and Episode 108: Creating Positive Intensity in Your Connection Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. Here on the show, we are having conversations with the pioneers of what makes relationships work well. And today's guests are celebrating the recent re-release of their classic book, Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples. And along with celebrating that re-release, we are so excited to have them back here on Relationship Alive to take an even deeper dive into their work so that we're not going to reinvent the wheel. If you want to know more about things that we've talked about, well, we have two other episodes that you can listen to. But we are going to cover some new ground today and also, hopefully, get some personal insights from our two esteemed guests. Their names are Helen LaKelly Hunt and Harville Hendrix. Neil Sattin: And like I said, they've been here on the show before, and it's... We, Chloe and I, have actually taken a workshop of theirs at Kripalu in Massachusetts. And it's just always such a treat to have you back, especially to be able to celebrate with you the re-release of your groundbreaking book, Getting the Love You Want, which has created a difference for so many people. In fact, I posed the question in my Facebook group, "Does anyone want to ask Helen and Harville anything?" And I had a couple of people who said, "Their book changed and saved my marriage. Saved my marriage." So I know you probably hear that all the time, but I just want to tell you, there are at least a couple more people for whom that's true. Harville Hendrix: Good. Thank you. Neil Sattin: So as per usual, you can download a transcript of today's episode by visiting neilsattin.com/imago3. That's I-M-A-G-O. And it's imago3 because imago2 and imago are other episodes, episode 22 and episode 108, where Harville and Helen have joined us previously to talk about their work. And you can always text the word "Passion" to the number 33444, and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode. And we have show guides for their previous two episodes. I think that's it for me. So Harville and Helen, thank you so much for being here with us again today on Relationship Alive. Harville Hendrix: Thanks, Neil. We are delighted to be here with you. Thanks for having us back on. Neil Sattin: It is... Helen LaKelly Hunt: Yes. Harville Hendrix: We're becoming a regular. Neil Sattin: You are. Yes. And it's a pleasure. I couldn't think of two people I'd rather be regulars with. Harville Hendrix: Aww. [chuckle] Harville Hendrix: Thank you. How kind of you. Neil Sattin: So I'm curious, for you, what... Let's just start by talking about when you were surveying Getting the Love You Want, which is such a classic. You were on Oprah 18 times to talk about Getting the Love You Want. What needed to be revised in the book? Why the new revision? And what were some of the main things that you felt needed to be updated, from your perspective? Harville Hendrix: Basically, what is in the new book, as a revision and update, is a first chapter, which is a contextualizing of the book in today's cultural environment. The first chapter sort of brings us up today's... Sort of speaking to today's audience and making... And acknowledging how a relationship, culture has changed in the past 10 years or some, but certainly a lot in the past 30 years. And obviously, the thing everybody is concerned about is social media, and iPhones, and text, and what is considered to be the dissolution of connecting and as replacement with technology. And so that the audience reading this would know that we are speaking to, with some self-awareness, a new market. So that's the major thing, is to... The major first thing is the social context. And the second is that, since 19... Since, yeah, since 1988, especially, and even since it came out a new issue, but not too modified, 10 years ago, at its 20th anniversary, we have made some, I would think, two major shifts. Harville Hendrix: One has been a clarification that connecting is the code word for Imago. Connecting is the code word for human yearning, how that connecting is the sort of... Misused everywhere by everybody now that even tech people and telephone people do sales and all that, you'll see connecting everywhere. But we posit that connecting is the nature of nature, and that we are living in an interconnecting universe of which we are participants, and that we have moved out of a universe set up by Newton in which individuals were in... Were separate and independent and isolated and in competition with each other, to a new universe in which we are not individuals and cannot live outside of relationship. So we made really clear that there's a... Quantum physics has given us a new view of what humanity is, what nature is, therefore what humanity is, and we tried to bring that into an understanding of marriage. Harville Hendrix: The basic yearning, we think, with couples is to be connected, and to feel connected, and to know how to sustain connection. And so we brought that into consciousness and gone all the way through the book, removing the vestiges of the individual, isolated individual that was there in 1988 because that... That was the... The foreground in 1988 was the self. And now we're saying the self is a derivative of context, of ourselves conscious enough at the time that we were simply espousing what was ordinary in the culture. Although, behind what we were doing, was this un-languaged awareness of that... Of interconnectivity, but now it's languaged. And then we have some additional exercises at the end of the book. The part three is basically exercises that help people work with that. One of them is the removal... One of them is the addition of a process we call zero negativity. And Helen wants to comment about that. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Yeah. Could I please mention then... Harville Hendrix: Please. Helen LaKelly Hunt: In addition to what Harville has said, may I mention three things? Harville Hendrix: Sure. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Absolutely. Helen LaKelly Hunt: To add, we have a new definition of the self that typically... I'm sorry, a new definition of a relationship. What is a relationship, people think, "Well, Harville and I have a relationship. The relationship is Harville's and me talking to each other in our history or whatever." But our new definition of a relationship is, there's Harville and then there's me, but there's a space between us. It's a space, and it's actually that space between us that determines... How we steward that space between us that determines the quality of our relationship. It's sort of a whole new definition of what is a relationship. And second, we bring in ideas like zero negativity. Helen LaKelly Hunt: And you all know the dialogue process that helps the space between become safe, so that when you're talking, you know who's talking, you take turns talking, and there's a structure, but also zero negativity. And then third, we used to have a process that, oh my goodness, we thought was going to be the best process for Imago therapy, which... This is way at the beginning, that if people could express their anger and not keep it locked inside, just let it out, like express... Take turns expressing your anger. And it was called the Container Exercise, where one partner would contain the anger of the other, and not only did we recommend it to couples, but Harville and I did it all the time... And... [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Oh, yeah. I know where this is going. Helen LaKelly Hunt: We had a horrible marriage. And that was before neuro... The neurosciences say that with neuroplasticity and all the brain, what you focus on is what you get. And Harville and I looked at this exercise and went, "Uh-oh. I think this wasn't the right thing for a couple to do practice being angry to each other." And this is where we tossed that out and we've put in exercises only that creates safety between the two and help focus on what our partner is doing right instead of all the things they're doing wrong, even if there are many, many, many. You just try to focus more on what your partner is doing right. And we also then had that process of what to do about the things you'd like them that you wish they did differently. Harville Hendrix: Yeah, and that's... It was important not to say to people, "You can't have your anger." What we had to say to people is, "You can't abuse your partner with your anger. So here is a way to talk about it so that... " And it's not the Container Exercise, it's more of a behavior change request process. Here's the way to talk about it so that the need behind the anger gets expressed, rather than the anger becoming so toxic, too. Because the other thing Helen and I have discovered, it was really interesting, because psychotherapists always work with memory. But somehow, there was like, "Well, all the memories you have are in the past." And one day it dawned on us that we're making memories all the time. Harville Hendrix: And since our partners look at us, and cannot not look at us through the veil of memories they have of us, it's really important that you decide what memories you want your partner to have of you, and then create those memories. And if so... If you have a, even a therapy exercise in which there's a screaming face, your amygdala doesn't care whether this was in therapy or not, it just remembers the screaming face. And you may have regulated it. So we've gotten tremendously focused on this space between being the domain where safety is there so that you can deal with difficult issues without hurting each other, and that way you maintain connection while you're dealing with the difference. Harville Hendrix: I think the other last thing is that we have emphasized more now of the need for affirmation, and that affirmation has become not just a, "Thank you, that was nice," but affirmation, sort of like Martin Buber long ago in the I-Thou relationship talked about, to affirm another person in their being is the function of the I-Thou relationship. And that has impacted me again, and many years after reading Buber, that to affirm another human being... But what we've added to Buber is that, "When I affirm you in your being, I simultaneously experience my being as affirmed." That the brain is a twofer; what you do for and to another person is simultaneously experienced by you. So that I think nature set it up so you couldn't cheat, because if I hurt you, I hurt me; If I care for you, I care for me. And that it works that way, that principle of simultaneity. So we've done some stuff like that in the new book. Neil Sattin: Wow. There's so much that we just covered, so many directions to go. In reflecting upon what you were saying, Helen, about anger and realizing its effects on if you were giving it full expression, and also what you both were talking about, in terms of how we've evolved from a very self-oriented theory of relationship to a very... A more relationship-centric orientation, a relational orientation with the space between. I'm thinking about how going through the dialogues, in particular, how that helps everyone get to the hurt that's beneath that anger, and how that creates safety to be able to identify with your partner, the wounded part of your partner, as opposed to be identifying with a part of yourself that's really angry about whatever it is they did. Or for them, identifying with their angry part instead of by really getting in touch with, "Oh, this is how I've been hurt." And from there, it's a much more generative place. It would be like if your relationship space is a garden, to borrow maybe an overused [chuckle] metaphor, if you find a little plant that has broken in places, you want to tend to it. You wouldn't just necessarily yank it out if it was what you were trying to cultivate. Harville Hendrix: Right. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Right, right. And so what I think we try to do is stay away from anger as much as possible, because it releases cortisol. And you know who feels horrible when cortisol is in their own body, and that's the person being angry. You think you're hurting someone else, you're also hurting yourself. So we do as much... What I appreciate about Harville is he has people more and more, in a simple way, circle what my wound was from childhood, just circle it, and not necessarily re-experience it. The cathartic thing that in the '70s and '80s, psychology said to get your feelings out about your parents, what they did wrong. Like if you express it, then you'll be getting it out of your system, and you don't have to carry it locked inside anymore. Well, guess what? That theory was wrong. [chuckle] Do you remember primal therapy by... Neil Sattin: Oh, yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Yeah, okay. So you would buy therapy or books to lay down on the floor and scream, and express your anger to your parents, your pretend-parents, to get it out. Well, so we are realizing that that's really damaging for the brain and damaging for the person expressing it. Harville has ingeniously headways a couple can identify the wound by circling it on a piece of paper. This wound is then a challenge from the past that they've brought to the relationship. And then they circle what is the need that they have from their current partner now, and changing an anger and frustration into a need and making a request. So we quickly accelerate someone on that path of something that your partner did wrong, well, you gotta name it. You gotta name it and maybe say how that made you feel, but say as quickly as possible what your partner should do, so you'll never feel that way again. And so the whole emphasis is making a request of what you want instead of telling your partner of what you don't want. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. And in the dialogue process then, what we do to operationalize that is that we'll give people the sentence stem. Which when they say what their frustration is, then Helen is very adamant about moving from frustration to, "What do you want?" And then we're giving a sentence stem as when I have that frustration that reminds me when I was little, and people then go to the hurt. And that hurt that I go to when I say, "It reminds me when in childhood my dad was not there," or, "My mother yelled at me," or whatever, that hurt then triggers in Helen, as my listening partner, empathy for me instead of judgment about me. And that revealing of the safety to reveal my hurt is created by the structure of the dialogue process, because I... By the way, the dialogue process works. We finally figured out is something that Dan Siegel said one time was, "Do you know why meditation works? Meditation works because the brain needs to know what's coming next." Harville Hendrix: And in meditation, the brain knows you're going to breathe in and then you're going to breathe out, and there won't be any changes in that. And the brain doesn't care what you're focusing on, whether it's God, or a mantra, or your breaths, or whatever. The predictability of what's coming next helps the brain relax. And in dialogue, when I heard him say that, I thought, "Oh, so that's why dialogue works." The brain knows that when I talk to you, you're going to say, "Let me see if I got that," instead of, "What in the hell did you mean when you said that?" Or, "No, you shouldn't say that." So I can predict, when I talk to Helen, that she's going to say, "If I'm getting that," rather than, "Why are you talking about that?" So, that predictability. So in the dialogue process, you know that your partner is going to check and say, "And that reminds you in childhood of?" And I'm going to say, "Well, it reminds me, blah, blah, blah, when my mother wasn't there," and then she's going to mirror me. Harville Hendrix: So what's happening is that she's regulating her prefrontal cortex by holding me in the dialogue process. And when she asked me, "And what did it remind you of?" and I tell her about my hurt, she is then going to experience, in the amygdala, an emotion called empathy. And so she will get empathy at the same time that I'm feeling safe with expressing my vulnerability with her. And when we shift that, we then move into curiosity rather than judgment, and when we go to curiosity, we've been deep in safety, and therefore, we can talk about vulnerability without fearing that somebody's going to say, "Well, that sucks, it's just too bad. You need to get over your childhood", which is kind of what is interesting, is what the message underneath psychoanalysis is, is that you finally have to go to adulthood and give up that fantasy that you ever... I remember my therapist now, nearly 40 years ago, when I was in analysis, saying to me, "Harville, you are never going to get what you want from Helen." [laughter] Harville Hendrix: "You must come to terms with that." [laughter] Harville Hendrix: I was like, "Oh, let me give you a book." I think we had... No, I think this was after Getting came out, that I was working with that therapist and I said, "Could I bring you a book?" [laughter] "Getting the Love You Want, in which I take opposition to your point of view." And he said, "No matter what you wrote in the book, it is still an illusion." [laughter] Harville Hendrix: What we have to say is, I got it from Helen. I didn't have to give up. You can't give up the desire, it's connected to your survival. It has to happen, but it has to happen with somebody with whom you are engaged, who will be present so that you can have your vulnerability and they stay in the curious and empathic place. Helen LaKelly Hunt: And partner isn't going to do it unless their partner asks in a respectful way. Like Harville has brought his needs to me, explaining what it was like in childhood, and thus exactly what he needs from me, and he and I actually work on this not just once, but over time. Because I'll say, "Honey, I just still want to know exactly what you wish. If I did it perfectly... And tell me exactly what it is you need from me." And he'll say it to me kindly, instead of saying, "You never do this and you never do that." Well, that... What is it? Squelches my motivation. I get discouraged when all I hear is what I'm not doing. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. It disempowers you. Helen LaKelly Hunt: And so the power for a couple just to shift from judgment to curiosity and wonder to each other, and shift from being critical to asking for what they want with sender responsibility. Neil Sattin: Right. And when you say sender responsibility, you're talking about, as the sender, the one speaking, the one making a request, taking responsibility for how you are making that request? Helen LaKelly Hunt: How it lands. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Such as your partner sticks their fingers in their ears and goes, "La la la la la." [laughter] Helen LaKelly Hunt: Let's say... And then you could ask your partner, "Could you coach me in how I'm asking for what I want? Could you coach me so that I could ask for what I want in a way that might make it something that we could have healthy dialogues around?" And just be curious about your partner, when they do shut down, were you part of the reason they shut down? Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I'm thinking back to what it feels like when there is anger, or disappointment, in the room, and how disconnected. I can feel that cortisol and maybe the powerful anger response happening, but in the end, what I really want to get back to is connection with my partner. And so I love how this process creates that shift back to the ways that we open to each other. Curiosity, understanding, compassion, versus staying in that shut-down place where you might be making demands or levying your judgment of the other person. Harville Hendrix: Yes. Right. Neil Sattin: I appreciate, too, that you're using yourselves as examples a little bit, and that makes me curious, and you can pass on this question if you want, but I'd love to know, for you, what are the things that... If you could name something that you continually have to revisit? Because I think a lot of people have this illusion that we who are talking about relationships all the time and writing relationship books, we have perfect relationships, meaning there's never conflict, there's never negativity. None of that. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit with what that journey is like for you, and what is the thing where you might revisit, you might find yourself revisiting over and over. "Oh, right, that's my thing that I'm working on." Harville Hendrix: You want to go first? Helen LaKelly Hunt: Right now, it's easier for me to share something that I always do wrong, or get feedback that I'm doing wrong. So could I start with that? Harville Hendrix: Sure. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Because I am so great at multitasking. Oh, I am awesome at it. [laughter] Helen LaKelly Hunt: But when Harville is talking to me, that is so insulting to him. Like my great gift is making him feel invisible. And I get that, and I love that when he speaks, and especially if he's excited about something, excited positive or excited negative, my job is to stop what I'm doing right there and then, and turn around and be as excited as he is about something, or as frustrated as he is, and just be present for him as he's experiencing his feelings. And I used to try to fit that into my schedule, but I was doing important things, and he would understand if I wasn't looking at him while he was saying something important... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And no, if he wants me to stop, "Wow, your... " What's more important, or what's more holy than getting to be present for Harville's experience of life. So over time, I've gotten clear that, "Wow, that's my number one job." So that's what... Neil Sattin: And just I'm curious, Helen, is there something that you've done to remind yourself so that when you find yourself... Harville is sharing something with you, and you're in the middle of 20 things which you excel at, do you have a way of bringing yourself into presence in those moments? Helen LaKelly Hunt: I do. When you came to our workshop, do you remember the video, the Still Face experiment? Neil Sattin: I do. Yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Okay. If anyone listening would look up, Google online the Still, S-T-I-L-L, Still Face experiment. A lot of psychiatrists at Harvard and psychiatry schools all around the country conducted this experiment, and Harville had picked that three-minute video to show in our workshops. And when the mother was present for their child, when the child was looking at the world, boy, was the child happy, but the moment the child... The mother had a still face that is not animated with the child, but just still, not angry, not distant, but just a still face, the child would try to get their caretaker to respond. Neil Sattin: Engage. Yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Engage. Engage and resonate with what the child was feeling. And in this little three-minute video, the child begins to go into shock that the mother has a still face and decompensates and starts screaming and yelling, even though the mom is about five inches away. The mother is right there, but it's the look in her eye that the child is missing. The mother is present but doesn't have presence. And so after watching that video for some years, I woke up to the fact that, "Oh, my goodness. Why don't I practice being the mother in the still face that is resonant face?" It's like... And it's a whole lot of fun to do that. I am having so much fun doing my best to when Harville might need me to drop everything, turn around, and just practicing presence. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. And what's interesting, and... But ordinary, is that you can imagine, therefore, that I grew up with a mother who had eight children plus me and no husband, he had died on a one-horse farm, and she was always busy. I have no images of her paying attention to me. None. Neil Sattin: Wow. Harville Hendrix: She died when I was six, but I, in that six years, I do not have a single picture. She was a wonderful woman. When I talked to my oldest sister, who at the time was an adult when I was a child... She is the most wonderful woman you can imagine. She was kind, loving and caring, and you look at all my family. They had to have a pretty good mother, because nobody went crazy and did drugs, and nobody killed anybody and so forth. But I was the last, and my primal memory of her is trying to get her attention and failing. So when I walk into the room and Helen is busy at the stove, at the fireplace, doing what my mother did, but hers is on the... Usually on the phone. That memory pops in, like I'm not going to be able to get her attention. So Helen has a practice of when I walk into the room, she'll take the phone away and check and see if I want to talk to her or... Or the other thing is, on Helen's side, is that asking her, "Is now a good time to talk?" is a way of establishing her availability, and she can say no. So we've moved out of, "You gotta always respond to me when I walk into the room," to, I can ask, "Are you available for a question right now?" And she can say no, and come back to it later. Helen LaKelly Hunt: And the key thing for me in terms of being vulnerable is, a big request I've asked is if you would coach me before presentations. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. So it's that... Helen LaKelly Hunt: So that's a childhood thing. Harville Hendrix: That Helen did not grow up being empowered by the people around her to function. Helen LaKelly Hunt: He's such a great speaker. Oh, wow. He just is so good, and I don't mind not being as good, I just want the memories of him coaching me. So that's been our thing. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And when you say that, I just... I get the feeling of what that must be like to be supported by him, to have all that attention and encouragement coming from him. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Exactly, exactly. Harville Hendrix: Except that right now, she's so good on the stages that people... There is a line up with her at the end of the workshop, and I'm over putting away my computer and nobody's talking to me. Everyone's talking to her. [chuckle] That's how good my mentoring has been. [laughter] Harville Hendrix: Yeah, but I get that. But that was you were not empowered as a child. And so to say, "Here's how you could do that, practice projecting, clear up this concept, make eye contact when you're talking, move around," anything that makes it charismatic, because speakers who had done it on stage a long time know how to hold an audience, and you don't hold them by standing there lecturing out of your throat. You engage them. And so she is... You do that with such magnificence. Well, you saw her do that with such magnificence, so... But the thing that's important is, we have talked about the new book. I think we finally clarified that healing is a medical term, and that it applies to the body getting well of a wound, but psychic healing, memories are not healed ever, that they are always resident in the... The emotional ones in the amygdala, and the event ones in the hippocampus. They're always there and can be activated by a behavior. So that what we work on is creating a relational environment in which we don't trigger the memories. And if we do, we have a repair process, in which we'll quickly put those memories back in the background, but they're not going to go away. Harville Hendrix: We used to think, when we were working out of the medical model for psychotherapy, which came from Freud and he was a physician, so he did what he knew how to do, that all emotions were a disease and had to be treated, and now we know that emotions are triggered by memories and that those memories will always be there. And what you wanted is... When we talk about creating new memories to replace the old memories, but when the old memory is triggered, that you move quickly in and all old memories are triggered by the absent caretaker. Whether they are missing in their bodies or missing emotionally, although they're in the room, they are not present to the child, and like that baby in the Still Face experiment, not being able to get the resonant face is terrifying. So if we... We know that all the time we have to live with that kind of conscious intention that we want a play... Our relationship to be safe enough that we don't trigger each other's painful childhood memories. And when we do, we move to repair quickly. Neil Sattin: Can you talk for just a minute about... And I want to make sure we don't lose sight of you also offering if you have something to share about your own personal thing that you revisit in the relationship, that you've been working on, Harville. But before we do, I'm curious, how do you encourage reciprocity in a relationship? I think, particularly in processes that require a lot of generosity of really listening with intent and being present and helping someone through a hard moment and being willing to come back to the table and repair, all of these important things. There's a danger that people perceive, which is like, "Well, I'm always giving and/or I'm always willing, but my partner isn't necessarily." So I'm just wondering if you have some guidance to offer around how to encourage partners to both be able to come to the table. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Do you have a comment about that? Helen LaKelly Hunt: Thank you. Harville Hendrix: Well, I'd have to think about that because I'm thinking that I'm not associating that with us. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Well, actually... We actually did when we were in a low point. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: We created a calendar of on-duty and off-duty days where before going to bed at night, one person was in charge of making sure that they and their partner were connected before they turned out the lights, and the next day it was their partner's job to make sure they were connected. And that was something that really brought us both in charge of participating and making sure the relationship was healthy. Because in most relationships, one person might be a little bit more active doing that. And if one person is more active, the other might go, "Well, it's their job to do that," [chuckle] or withdraw. Every relationship has a turtle, as well as a hailstorm. So these on-duty... This calendar that invites a couple to co-create accountability for reciprocity is a beautiful way that, no matter what, you have to be connected before you go to bed. The other person on their on-duty day has to figure it out. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. And I think we've talked about that some. I'd say that was a really good training process, but I don't experience now, you and me saying, "Well, I did five things that were positive and you didn't do any," that we're not in the tit-for-tat consciousness. We do have a ritual every night that, before we go to bed, we give each other three appreciations, and rather than point out three things that we did wrong in dealing with the zero negativity calendar, that we moved that out and... Helen LaKelly Hunt: We both are really responsible for the relationship these days. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: But if someone... If it's one-sided, that's a suggestion. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. And so that really is an amazing structure, that you have a day on which you are the one who is going to contain whatever is chaotic, and the next day you're off-duty. What we discovered, though, is we like the days on-duty better. [laughter] Helen LaKelly Hunt: It felt better to be on-duty than off-duty. Harville Hendrix: Yeah, because you're working out of your prefrontal cortex and you're not into your reactivity. And if you do feel reactive, "I'm on duty, I can't drink." [laughter] Harville Hendrix: So you go and do the other piece, and you wind up feeling better because you have not gone into your negative emotions. And then after a while, we were both feeling better so that we kind of made that we are both on-duty every day for the quality of our relationship. And given that, we don't have a whole lot of things to clean up, and when we do, I think the thing I would say about that is we have got this repair process down so that if one of us does miss out, we just go fix it in the next five or 10 minutes. Helen LaKelly Hunt: So that's the zero negativity process. Harville Hendrix: That's the zero negativity process. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Which Harville could talk about for a long time. We do a better job at that, but... Harville Hendrix: Let's see what Neil wants. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Well, I would definitely love to have you share that, but is there something, Harville, in particular, that you'd like to share about something that you've had to revisit in your relationship with Helen that's kind of your thing, that you've been working on, and maybe a struggle that is less and less of a struggle over time? Harville Hendrix: Well, I'm thinking about that. I think that my growth edge is to listen until Helen finishes her sentences. That I interrupt her, and then that triggers her invisibility vulnerability. And to... Because my brain quickly is listening and has something to say to add to it, or an alternative, and I rationalize it by, "Well, it's a conversation, it's not a dialogue. We're playing tennis, we're not having a dialogue." But all interactions are and should be dialogical. And I still work on, as the co-creator of all of this, implementing it all the time. I would think that's... Would that fit with you? Your view of my growth edge? What else would you see as my growth edge? Helen LaKelly Hunt: I think me finishing sentences. Harville Hendrix: Finishing sentences, not being interrupted and deflected. [chuckle] Helen LaKelly Hunt: Mm-hmm. And I said the coaching. Harville Hendrix: And the coaching. Because I think when you were little, nobody listened to you in the household, the family, the parents. Helen LaKelly Hunt: I didn't talk. I didn't even try. [chuckle] Harville Hendrix: Well, and you didn't talk because nobody was listening. That was not cool. [chuckle] So interrupting her, but... And also appreciations, to notice what excellent things, more than just the ritual at bed time, that during the day I'm trying to grow into awareness that the way she just handled that phone call was amazing, and to say that instead of, "Well, we got another task done." That's the affirmation process, to be engaged in that. Because I grew up on the farm, and where I grew up on the farm was people didn't spend much time thanking you. It was like, "Did you milk the cow?" And then they didn't say, "Wow, what a good cow milking you did." [chuckle] It just was, "Did you do it? And did you feed the horse before you came in?" [laughter] Helen LaKelly Hunt: And all of those affirmations... Harville Hendrix: So appreciations was not a part of that, and affirmations. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Appreciations and affirmations create safety, and that's bottomline. Harville Hendrix: Yes, absolutely. And they then empower you, you know what you did that made a difference. And if you do something, like you did feed the cow or milked the cow real well, and nobody noticed it, then you don't know whether you did it right or not, or if you even want to do it again. But if somebody says, "Good milking. Wow, see the horse was fed. Good job." That's the kind of affirmation, appreciation, that becomes spontaneous rather than just the ritual at the end of the day. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and that reminds me, too, of John and Julie Gottman's work around having that ratio of 20:1, positive to negative, interactions in normal day-to-day life. They were just on the show talking about the importance of cultivating cherishing in their relationship as well, so... Harville Hendrix: Yeah, I like them. Neil Sattin: It makes sense that you'd be on the same page. Harville Hendrix: Yeah, yeah. John and I were talking one time at his home on the island, in San Juan Islands, where he lives, we'd gone out there to visit him. And at the time, there was some kind of... We're not sure we're on the same page and so forth, but he pulled me aside and he said, "Having been here for two days and talking, so forth, I think we're basically all doing the same thing, we just phrase it differently." And I thought, "Good! That means we pass your approval." [laughter] Neil Sattin: It does feel good. Harville Hendrix: And I love the word "cherishing", that... I love that word, "cherishing". And I think the repair process, we prefer to call it the "reconnecting process" because repair seems so mechanical, but the methodology of that, the quickness of repair as a sign of a healthy relationship is another thing they threw into the world that we have picked up and said, "That's really important," is how quickly you get this thing fixed and get back on the road. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about your approach to repair that you've brought up a few times? Harville Hendrix: Well, yes. The zero negativity is a pledge that you make, and we know that because of the wiring of the brain to be paranoid means that to change your brain to affirmations, goes... Is by changing the evolutionary patterns so big, so that when you commit to zero negativity, you gotta blow it. And we say to people, "We're telling you a great thing to do, but we know you gotta have difficulty doing it. So let's just say that upfront. But it's okay if you blow it, if you repair it." And because when you blow it, you'll disconnect, and what we want you to do is reconnect, which we like the word "connecting". So what we... There's a range of repairs, and one is to say, "Could I just do that again? Could I send that again?" Or Helen might say, "Would you be willing to send that in a different way that doesn't sound negative to me?" Harville Hendrix: So, the re-do process. And then a sort of parallel to that is, if I'm not clear what you want, I could say, "Will you model it for me? So I can see how you want me to look, the tone of voice you want me to have, the words that you want to say." And the agreement is that we will let our partners teach us. Then the third thing is that we discovered some people don't need to do all that, they just need an apology. "I'm really sorry that I had that tone of voice." Helen likes apologies. I like behaviors, because when I grew up, people who apologize just hit you again. So apologizing means nothing to me. But if, stop hitting me and do something different, so then I will have to ask her how something she wants. A hug? We both respond to hugs, sometimes, "Just hug me," or, "Look me in the eye." A connecting behavior of some sort may repair it quickly. Harville Hendrix: And then if, however, the memory that was a real sensitive one, we have the option of going into a full dialogue and talking about how that negative thing I experienced from you, triggers this memory for me, so that she can know or I can know that, then get curious, can know that I need to go to empathy and to holding that. And then we have a really complicated one. If it's really difficult, I may need more than empathy. I may need an actual request for behavior change, and we call that the behavior change request process. And that means we go through a process to arrive at a behavior that I need to have from you so that I can predict my safety with you. And then Helen will agree to initiate that maybe, or if it's on my side, I will initiate that behavior, so that the repair... But that's when it's really deep. Neil Sattin: Right. I remember, in going through that dialogue in your workshop, how nice it was... I believe you have us come up with three or four options. Harville Hendrix: Right. Neil Sattin: So it's not just like, "This is my request, honor it. Please honor it." But, "Here are a few options for you. And any one of these things would satisfy me, or would feel like a step in the right direction." And I feel like that's important. Harville Hendrix: It really is important because if it's just one thing, "Here's my hurt, here's what I want," it sets up a power struggle instead of a collaboration. But if they're, "I'm hurt. Three things, any one of three things would help with that," then I get a choice about which one of those I can do, which one I will do, and which one will not stretch me at all if I did it, and so I'll pick one that's challenging because I want to grow. But if I have choices, then I can participate. But we found that if I don't give you a choice, it's going to trigger your resistance. Then even if you did something, it wouldn't matter, because the psychological energy of a generosity is not there. But if I have a choice, I can be generous; If I don't have a choice, I'd be resentful. We don't want a therapeutic process that creates resentment. Neil Sattin: Speaking of, I'm curious about the way that Imago handles shame. I could see, for instance, you take the zero negativity pledge and one person or the other dumps something toxic into the relational space. It happens. So how would you want to handle the shame that one might feel from having done that? Or we're in the Getting the Love You Want conversation, a lot of people have shame attached to their desires and to the very thing that they want to ask for. It might bring them shame to ask for it. So I'm just wondering if you have a way of holding that? Harville Hendrix: Well, to me, the shame is dealt with by holding the request or holding the failure, so that you... I think the reparative or the healing or the reconnecting process always is that if it's guilt that you mirror back at, so you're feeling guilty about that, so shame... So that felt shameful to you. I'm getting that, there's some more about it, so then don't shame back or guilt back. But once a person has become... Has had their... And you know those emotions are all connected to developmental processes. If you're always into guilt, you're probably not into shame, you're into... You did bad behaviors. But if you're into shame, which is an earlier developmental issue, you're into not being a good person. And so... Harville Hendrix: But in either case, they are all created by the parent who does not hold the child's behaviors and experiences at the time. And when those are held without judgment but with curiosity, that for us is what restores connection, whether it's shame or guilt, is it's... I don't end up... Haven't been able... I know there are shame books and guilt books and all kinds of things, but as I have read the literature for the past 40-50, nearly 60 years now, underneath all of those things, there's something that repairs everything. So it's not a shame repair. And what repairs shame and guilt and anger and all of that is presence. If I can be present to you without judgment, and hold you with curiosity, something will happen inside of you around that transaction, whether it... Whatever it was, guilt or shame. And it will be mitigated by the fact that it's not repeated in our interaction. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I am so appreciative of your time and wisdom again. I just want to remind everyone that if you want to download a transcript of this episode, we've had so many valuable action items and takeaways from this conversation, you can visit neilsattin.com/imago3. That's I-M-A-G-O 3, after their Imago therapy and Imago dialogues. And I also encourage you to listen to our first two episodes together, episode 22 and episode 108, where we go into more detail about how to do dialogues in the structured way that we've been referring to today. And also, we talk a lot in episode 108 about creating lots of positive force in your relationship. Neil Sattin: Before we go, I just... I want to mention something that feels super important to me, and it's kind of funny that we waited until the end to chat about it, but one of the most important changes that I noticed in the book, along with all of the wonderful updates to the content that you mentioned, is that now, Helen, your name is also on the cover of the book as an author. And I just want to acknowledge that you write about it beautifully in the preface, both of you, about your process of how that came to be. Do you want to give us just a quick snapshot of that now? Because I know a lot of people ask about that and why, for so long, Helen, your name wasn't on the cover when you so clearly were involved in creating this work. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Well, thanks for asking, and maybe I'll go first. Harville Hendrix: Okay. Helen LaKelly Hunt: I look back now and am surprised at my own disassociation of the idea of being on the cover. At the beginning, I vehemently fought against it because I had a prominent last name and was from a family that had sort of, not world recognition, but in certain industries, world recognition. [chuckle] My last name is known around the globe and in certain places, certain industries, and Harville was a sharecropper's son and both parents had passed away by the time he was six. He was the youngest and was almost sent to the orphanage. So while I saw his brilliance, I didn't think his last name... Well, I just wanted this chance to have the theory so powerfully presented in this book, I just felt like it should be his name. It was his idea to focus on this book and so much of the content was him, and I was the ideal number two for him, we both think, but I wanted his name on it. Helen LaKelly Hunt: But I just kept... Once he became so famous, I really missed that I wasn't recognized very much at all, but I dreamed I would be on the cover, and that was Harville's idea. But from the very beginning, there was some sort of dissociation that women have that I was a part of, that I had been, and that I recently wrote a paper on all of the things I did to prepare myself as a therapist before I met Harville. I got a master's in counseling psych, went halfway through a PhD in clinical psych. I love this stuff, but I just sort of dissociated from it. And it's a tremendous, joyful, beautiful thing that Harville had the idea of including me, and that I get to be visible as his number two. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Well, and the reason her name is on the cover is that she is the co-creator of Imago. The first few sentences in the first year, in 1977, when we met, the conversation led to Getting the Love You Want, and Helen facilitated finding a writer and facilitated the research, all kinds of things, plus the conversation about content was there and the contribution, like Helen invented dialogue, it was her idea to do that structured process. Zero negativity came from Helen. And so I pick up a lot of things that she would say, and since I'm a systemic thinker, I then build that into the system, but... So a lot of pieces in the system... I take full credit for the structure of the system, but not for all of the limbs on the body of the system. So it was clear that we are co-creators with equal and unique contributions to it, and that Helen refused to have her name... That she was offered to have her name on in 1988, then she said no. But after a while, it began to agitate both of us that there was something wrong with this public recognition of me, part of which could be explained, because I was on the Oprah show. Harville Hendrix: But that was also part of the problem that Helen, not being on the cover, didn't get on the Oprah show. So I'm the visible person, and she is the supportive housewife, even if she does have a famous name. I suddenly became as well-known, if not better known than her last name. So it began to just look like that. So when we got to the 30th, it occurred to me, and then I had this epiphany that it's not like a deserved thing. She deserves to be on it, or I want to be generous. It dawned on me one day that I colluded with the cultural devaluation of women, and that I'm married to one of the most powerful women in the world, who was a co-creator of a book and she's invisible around one of the things she loves the most. Helen colluded, too. She's a feminist, she is probably ranked as the second most influential feminist in America in terms of her contribution to women. But somehow, she disassociates herself from... Not from that work, but from our work. Harville Hendrix: So it dawned on me, as we were getting ready to write the preface to the new book, that, just like an epiphany, "Wow, look at this. Can you imagine, if we colluded with the cultural trance, how could we understand everybody else's collusion with the cultural trance? No wonder it's so hard for women to get the right jobs and break through the glass ceiling, and be pastors in churches and bishops in Catholic churches, and everything where women are unequal. It's just wrong, and it needs to be righted." So we did it to cleanse our own souls and to make a statement to the culture, that gender inequity is basically a pathology. And hopefully, we have awakened from that trance and into at least a smidgen more health as a result of that. So her name is where it belongs. And another thing, it's a justice. Social justice is when equity shows up. And so this is a relational justice or partnership justice, in which we are truly partners, and she's not my helper. She's a partner, and we are equal in this project. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Well, and for me, I was known for being in the Hunt family and getting dividends. I started using dividends and I'm known as a donor, and my work in feminism is my head, but Imago is my heart and... Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Helen LaKelly Hunt: That's who I am at my heart. And so it's a beautiful experience, getting to have my heart seen more and being more of a partnership. So thank you for asking. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And just, for me, it was super powerful to pull the book out of the wrapper and to see both of your names there. I had a visceral experience, so... Harville Hendrix: Are you... Neil Sattin: Yeah, I did. Harville Hendrix: Yeah. Great. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Harville Hendrix: Oh, we're glad. And I think, as it occurs to me, while we're talking, is you cannot really become without the resignating other. And so it's really helpful to me, and I think probably helpful to you, that people can say, "Yes, you all are equal partners. And Helen is an equal partner with you." Makes her an equal partner. There's something about the resonance of you and the public to that, that helps Helen integrate it. Otherwise, the disassociation is hard to overcome for both of us, because I was disassociated too. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And for me, this is a reminder too, for everyone who's listening, to just think about what you, in your relationship, what you are creating together, and to acknowledge that the ways that we do create things or support each other, but even in the support, it's truly a co-creation. Harville Hendrix: Yes. Neil Sattin: Things wouldn't be possible without... And that's the beauty of it, right? Is we get to create amazing things that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Harville Hendrix: And you're co-creating each other all the time, just like you create a baby together, then you co-create each other as parents, in where every interaction changes us. So we're constantly co-creating, but we don't know it, but it's so subtle. But it is the primary reality, we think. So thank you for asking. Neil Sattin: My pleasure. And thank you both for being here and being willing to talk about the theory, the mind stuff, and the heart stuff, and to share some of your own personal journey. It's super powerful and such a treat to be able to talk to you again here for Relationship Alive. Harville Hendrix: And for us, Neil. Helen LaKelly Hunt: Thank you. Harville Hendrix: Thank you. We love talking to you. Neil Sattin: My pleasure. Harville Hendrix: We read your newsletters every time they come out. Neil Sattin: Do you? [laughter] Harville Hendrix: Yes. Neil Sattin: Well, hopefully, you've been entertained lately. [laughter] Harville Hendrix: We keep up with you. Yes.

Hello guys! I hope all of you have already recovered from the longest Monday after New Year's Eve... the January. Today I'll give you my last pre-recorded Set I have because these are my last two weeks in one of the most beautiful cities Europe has probably to offer: Amsterdam. I really fell in love with this city because all the people here are like from a different kind of universe. I've never felt so warmly welcomed and cozy as I feel in this city. A friend of mine once said that Amsterdam is like one big living room and I can totally relate to this. So I hope you'll enjoy this older set of mine until I'll be back in Germany at the beginning of February. Because I'll celebrate my birthday on the 22nd of February at the Ak44 Club in Gießen with one of the oldest friends of Loops of Life: Chriso & Nic Palpate. I really hope that a few of you guys will show up there to celebrate this nice day with us and just have some fun and enjoy the music. See you soon!!! SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/marmormetall http://soundcloud.com/marmormetall-official Instagram: http://instagram.com/marmormetall Facebook: http://facebook.com/marmormetall Youtube: http://bit.ly/2lfHtyx Spotify: http://spoti.fi/2xfZPJ0 Beatport: http://bit.ly/2CMwnyi iTunes: http://apple.co/2hQPHMu Amazon Music: http://amzn.to/2hQW2HR Deezer: http://bit.ly/2hsS0nR Contact me if you have any questions about my music or just want to be a part of Loops of Life: sppitps@web.de 01 Gorge - Disco ReBeat | NOIR MUSIC 02 Macromism - Gabor | TRONIC 03 Alcatraz - Giv Me Luv (Nicole Moudaber Remix) | YOSHITOSHI RECORDINGS 04 Whomadewho - Heads Above (Maceo Plex Remix) | ELLUM 05 Him_Self_Her - Don't Fail Me Now Feat. Calder (Dubspeeka Remix) | SUARA 06 Matt Sassari - Circu Phage (D-Unity Remix) | UNITY RECORDS 07 Enrico Sangiuliano & Matt Sassari - Aries (Luigi Madonna Remix) | ALLEANZA 08 Harvey McKay - The End | SOMA QUALITY RECORDINGS 09 Ovi Milos - Panic Button | OCTOPUS RECORDS 10 Manic Brothers - Morning Mass | DRUMCODE 11 Frankyeffe, Audiomatiques - Hard Times | OCTOPUS RECORDINGS 12 Sian - Venus De Milo (Sian's Intravenus Mix) | OCTOPUS RECORDINGS

Hey, how ya'll doing? Welcome to the first episode of BIG ZELL PODCAST. Let me know how bad you hate this one and tell me what make you like it? Because I'll follow your advise. *Plug for today: 1. Check out @The.We4kend and stay tune for their new music video. 2. NIRON - Coffee Catering | Your only F&B choice in Phnom Penh! Grab their promotion now! *Support me on all social media. See you in the 2nd episode!

Part 2. Joining us today is John Sterling. John's been in a number of markets and was previously with Keller Williams and most recently was in San Francisco California and is currently in Colorado. John's background is fairly extensive in real estate. John is known for his work in Europe and London as well as working with multiple team leaders and market centers and helping them attract agents. John talks at length about his challenges in real estate and really not really getting EXP at first. John I'll give you his insight in terms of why he ultimately moved from Keller Williams to EXP and he hasn't regretted it and never looked back. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   EXP innovating and game changing technology made simple EXP Stock valuation explained Revenue share versus profit share Expansion Teams Simplified Fears and worries of competitors Other big companies reactions to EXP growth Non bricks and mortar game changing EXP eliminating layers of expenses through with new virtual technology     Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Jon to inquire or ask questions. Contact Jon Sterling Phone call or text at 720 605 1063. Email: Jon.Sterling@exprealty.com   Transcription Jon. So that was the answer to the technology. So the money the technology. We talked a little bit about you know privately held versus publicly held. Another note on that one place where I've seen some pushback and one of those half truths or just like something that wasn't fully explained or isn't still isn't fully explained as when we get attacked for not being profitable. Right. Because a publicly traded company would have to release your finances so anyone could go check on your health anytime they want. That's a funny attack to me. It demonstrates that people who are saying it just are lacking some basic sort of fundamental knowledge about stock valuations. Somebody who's a really great example there's been in the news over the past couple days. Amazon. You guys heard on Amazon right. Well they hit one trillion dollars in market cap yesterday and they had huge revenue and free cash flow which they reinvest in their business. Instead of declaring profits for many many years they didn't declare profit at all. They found a way to essentially get their tax bill down to zero because they're putting everything back into the research and development. All right. So it's like are you going to bash a trillion dollar company, the world's second trillion dollar company because they're not declaring profit. It's like give me a break. Watch everything else grow. There's like a problem take care of itself. Right? And the reason that the stock valuation continues to improve is because the stock analysts understand this. The company doesn't have debt like we're not taking on huge loans. We're not doing crazy stuff with her money like it'll naturally work itself out. Another great example everyone else is uber profitable Uber is? it isn't. They lose money every quarter. How many billions of dollars there worth? I don't know the exact number but you can look it up by the time we look it up I'm sure it'll change. But anyway so that's the whole point. It's like it's what's wrong with copying those strategies. Some of the fastest growing and most valuable companies in the world aren't declining profits. Why would we? Go reinvest. Make this the place that's going to sustain the next shift in the markets. And any other change or the show up because we have the right people the right attitude you know the right sort of base to weather that storm. Kevin. It's one of those things... I'll touch on it and I am not the CFO of EXP I have no relationship to the board. And this is not a representation on behalf of EXP. This is just me understanding profit loss. You and I went through many many many many classes of market centered financials and understand PNL in the real estate world. I also know it from my nine startups I did down in Silicon Valley I understand how to look at a growth company PNL. So one of the things and if this is where you're hung up as a listener you reach out to me and I'll be happy to walk you through it off line. But the general gist of it is if you look at Generally Accepted Accounting Principles or Gap principles a company like Expedia or any other growth company is going to end up taking charges that are non-cash against the hard cash items in a PNL. Right? And this is not an accrual versus cash basis. This is just when you get to the bottom line. If you look at the financials and drill through you'll see these gap adjustments what are those things right? You look at you know the logical ones that if somebody took accounting they heard over things like depreciation. The big ones for our growth company are equity stock options non-cash awards and things like that. Obviously as John talked about there is a lot of that going on at the EXP. It does not affect cash flow in the business. It is something that is taken against income and is an offset. So in a recent Financial I looked at... Let's just say the number was hypothetical to say the number was something in the order of magnitude of 20 million as a loss after the gap adjustments. 16 million of the 20 million were the gap adjustments. So somebody on Facebook comes out and says Oh my God I lost 20 million dollars. So if a growth company post that in 16 million of those paper you should be looking at the four million number and you're looking for things like are they adding to cash flow or are they making improvements. What was the number like a year ago. Based on the pre gap adjustments. And this is a big part of what the industry doesn't understand about a growth company. Is when you're hitting a hockey stick, the growth year over year is so big that you know you'll hear others in the industry talk about residential brokerage specifically. While we do this many transactions, our set of agents that are in this space. Did this many and that's more than a company like EXP. What they're not realizing is the week over week growth let alone the quarter over quarter growth is basically vertical. And so as a result there is a lag. Right. When John moves over or a team moves over and by the time they close out the business with the old brokerage and they get new business on the books and that business goes through marketing its listings and then gets closed and then gets booked. You have a lag. So when they're looking at these numbers what they're doing and I call it playing with the timing they're looking at the old numbers not projecting what the new numbers are. You know I was at the EXP shareholder meeting and they put up a slide at the shareholder me it was public information and the room went... collectively a big gasp because many people in the EXP didn't realize it was growing this fast. They knew we're adding agents but the general gist of it was they talked about transactions that were either closed or pending as of the date of the shareholder meeting in April and it exceeded the entire number for the whole year, previous year. So in other words this was in the spring of 2018. That number as of April was higher than the entire number for the entire year in 2017. Brokerage companies do not do that. Growth for the number one franchise system is like 2 or 3 %. You're not talking about them saying in April that they have more booked pending and closed than they did in the entire previous year. If you're wanting to understand a little bit more about what this looks like happy to have a conversation with you. Gene Frederick would be happy to have a conversation with you. Do what John did which is dig into the material and get the real facts. I mean I saw a post on social media about this which is your sort of very honest and candid post which said I was basically skeptical and I was listening to all the rumors and innuendo and misdirection and when I got in here it was a whole different picture and I'm sure you'll get getting calls about that from people because you're very well respected not only within Keller Williams but within the industry. And I think it raised a lot of eyebrows when John Sterling decided to move. Jon. Oh yeah. It's finally the number of private messages I got versus public reaction to that post which I guess it's predictable. But you know it's like people that are in transition. They were you know in the process of joining us like they don't want to put their you know it's like they're pending deals at risk or they just don't want things to get weird in their local markets. But you're right. I mean it was just kind of... it was just one of those things it was like. I thought I knew it all. I thought I understood it. I thought that what I was being told by the previous company was true. I was like Of course it's not all the way to you. It feels like those days when we were the pioneers at Keller Williams and then you know there were these very coordinated efforts and outside consultants that would be hired anytime we came to town and they had all of these pretty prepared sort of you know objection handlers. Well you see how well that worked out right. It seems that they have slowed down Keller Williams growth. It's like give me a break. It's like one hundred eighty thousand I'm a runner. So again it's like people are going to come at their own pace. I get it. It's not for everyone which I don't think it will be but it's gonna be for a lot of people. I've never seen growth like this. I just kind of digging into the financials doing my own research as you mentioned. It was more than just looking at what was publicly listed. You know it's like I'm going to talk to these agents that I know it's like. Tell me about their business. What's changed to see if the growth that I think is true has you know anecdotal evidence at the local level as if I know somebody these people and I've been around forever they're straight shooters. You know they don't have any problems with their license and everyone respects them feels like those are the folks I'm talking to the ones who were going to give it to me straight up there's something unfavorable or unflattering they would tell me. And there were only a few things that were just minor annoyances. There were no big red flags no matter who I talked to or in the country they were. So I kind of made that part easy. Kevin. Absolutely so I want to get your take on something John obviously the big announcement out of Keller Williams at the mega camp right. You know you're familiar because not only did you work with team leaders and others within the system you know a lot of OPs you know a lot of regional directors. They announced and most of the industry I think really understood the implications of this. Essentially what I call a gift to the expansion teams right. We'll see how they actually execute on this. But you know there's a lot of... and I think this is kind of like in the high tech world from Silicon Valley where a company that's big will preannounce something and then you see whether they can actually deliver on it because they want to kind of get ahead of the market and say well we're going to do something virtual or non bricks and mortar too. What are you hearing about that. Because I'll tell you first what I'm hearing which is you know the expansion teams are beyond excited and we can talk about that a minute why they are but the number of agents that I know that are not either wanting to play on that field meaning they're not going to be an expansion business organization or that's not their desire right. They're great mega agent they have a team they're in a market center they're concerned if they have to do execute on this about creating an unequal playing field what are you hearing. Jon. So just got a big picture I could first. I mean my first reaction to that was is it it's something that the 12000 agents.. that 13000 owners or whatever ever we have now compared to 180000 that Keller Williams is not reacting to what seemed to me to be bigger threats to them like better funding like compass right. Some of these places that are taking market share and gobbling up the world right. It's like you have these players out there and Keller Williams isn't really talking about them not publicly bashing them anything like that. I've never heard the company like publicly bash or publicly oppose an organization especially one that seems so small and insignificant. Right. So it's like that's very telling by itself is the fact that they're reacting to something that is so small compared to them. I mean it's less than 1/10 the size you know. Is there any other... like is Amazon reacting to you know it's like little little startup online e-commerce store. Well you know not as a big deal but they probably have it seems like it about it but they're not out there publicly bashing this little thing that doesn't seem like much of a threat. So unless we're we're a real threat or a real reason why would there be public bashing and why would there be so much copycat stuff going on. So that was just an interesting sort of twists right. As you said it's like the expansion teams they're thrilled because it's essentially removing a lot of the politics that you get in a franchise you know it's just a lot of headaches if you're trying to expand your team to new market because you have to get approval from all these different levels and you have to get buy in from all these levels. You have to get because otherwise these these owners and these managers that are either short sighted or they want to remain the kings and queens of their franchise territories or whatever stand in the way or they just don't understand it. They don't take the time to go to their expansion classes and all this other stuff. And I was one of the few dozen people in the company who was certified to teach that team expansion haptic course. I got to interact with a lot of these folks and I got to talk to a lot of OPs and team letters about it's like just getting there understanding what's going on. And I've heard a lot of opposition people will like this expansion stuff is kind of a headache. We got a lot of people run around or supervise big risk to our license. So the expansion teams are great because it kind of clears the runway for them. They're happy that they don't have to interact with the problematic franchise owners and managers anymore like they can just go around the system. So where that all falls apart is because you have these layers of ownership you have the local franchise owners you have the regional franchise owners which the are last time I counted 33 of them. So basically they cut up the US the 33 territories. So all these people are getting a little piece of the action whether it's the local company dollar or franchise royalties or some combination right. So those folks are the ones that I've heard the most from because they're terrified. I mean they're locked in these either five year tenure agreements with their franchise and they can watch the whole thing unfold. You know if they've had a monopoly in their area.. you want to work in that city you're going to work with Keller Williams and you're going to be working with that markets that are like no options. Well now people have an option and that's scary to them. And what's even more scary is they might not be able to get out of their franchise as well as the housing value. So it was like they might have four years before they're up for the next renewal before they could feasibly sell it or dissolve it or whatever they need to do.A lot of people they'd planned on there franchise ownership being a retirement plan. So they wanted to build it to a certain point and sell it and hire someone to run it or whatever. But if all of that value has a risk of going away like who's going to write a check for that now. Like you know like I was around during the last boom that looked like this when we were buying up market centers like crazy we paid top value for a lot of these things where we could see the opportunity it wasn't necessarily there was like There's no way we'd be writing those checks today. It's like considering what's going on if there's no real value to the franchise territory if you're going to be stuck with these huge leases that's all your risk. I mean the way the franchises work is you give the franchise or person who's selling you the franchise give you permission to use their name. You give em a bunch of money for the privilege of taking all the risk for signing all the leases with personal guarantees for hiring all the people who are signing up all the insurance all that stuff and then after you paid for that privilege you got to pay the franchise or a percentage of your revenue before you even get paid. They're getting money off the top. So they take no risk. They get paid before you get paid. Which I think suddenly has caused a huge bump and interest in EXP because we don't have any of that. We have no franchise fees. We have no franchise territories. We have no regional territories none of it. So you've cut out all that nonsense. So it's not just the politics. You don't have to navigate anymore you know the money makes sense and the technology is good. There's no limit to it. You don't have any problems sort of convincing the local ownership that you're a valid person and you need to be in that market. So the virtual thing was a real interesting one and kind of lit up my inbox for a few days so people be like OK you know if I needed to walk away from my Keller Williams franchise How do I join you. Like what's the cleanest way to do it. Like know I'll talk to your lawyer but just like the fact that people are asking those questions is certainly eye opening for me. Kevin. Well I have a little bit of a different take on it. You know I've talked about this before and I think you know the story is the average Agent Market Center. It could be a rainmaker for a small team that's not going to go expansion or a agent that just knocks out of the park with lead generation those people even within a market center have the ability to disrupt things they end up doing so much mass lead generation that they could disrupt things we did this in St.. LEWIS Right. I moved in from out of the market I got ramped up and I had five buyer agents we were launched the real geeks Web site I mentioned in St. Lewis we were getting 500, 600 leads a month on that organically. This is before you know Zillow, Iconic etc took those No 1 slots with some changes in the organic world so you could imagine that if you walked around the market center and queried agents of their biggest frustration the answer was that control team has all of our leads and we're not very happy about it. And this is where my concern would be for an agent. If you're listening to this let me tell you what happened and then let Jon tell you what will happen in the New World. I was talked to by the OP and the team leader and I was told We love you. You're doing fantastic things but this is so disruptive to our market center. You need to leave. I was kicked out of Keller Williams for knocking it out of the park with lead generation. So now if the franchise system sets up a statewide brokerage operation the model for expansion is you know that whether they call it a grid or a big MSA. Each team brings in.. And the model is bring 10 to 20 people in right. You hear Adam talk about it that's certainly his model and you know Tim and everybody else and Ben all do the same thing. So now what Kevin did in St. Lewis is on steroids with multiple teams now the difference is as you know and I'll ask you this Jon because you actually taught expansion if the brokerage is state wide and it's not the franchise, Who are they going to complain to if I'm the agent the market center that is actually gonna be doing do anything. Jon. Well that is the question I can only guess what the rollout will look like but if it's anything like what I'm thinking it's like so you have certain legal and compliance things to just think about right. So you know each state is going to have a broker kind of like how we're set up at EXP then that broker it's really that brokers licenses the one at risk if somebody misbehaves. So I have a feeling that that person is going to get a lot of this pushback or whatever where I think it's going to be real telling is what is going to happen to these franchise owners like they were sold one set of circumstances and one set of things right. I can't speak to what is inside the franchise documents because it's been a while since I looked at one last time I looked at it. You know it's very clear that you know they're like phonebooks incredibly thick things. So it's like there you know you have these big application and then whatever whatever. There are certain representations that are made by the franchise or that if there's a virtual thing takes off and they executed the way people think they're going to execute it. That's I mean that sounds like class action territory to me. I don't know there's that has been a term that has been used by several existing OPs at Keller Williams Amazon and they're just friends of mine who are like What do you know about this. My dad's not a lawyer I can't give you any advice but sounds like you should get together with your friends to see what you can do because it just doesn't make any sense that a dramatic shift from.. OK... You have a franchise territory and it's totally under your control and we're not going to let anyone open up anywhere close to you to protect that territory to now they've just erased all of that with one announcement. Kevin. The point that I'll add on top of what John said is where the agents could have political power collectively within the office in a franchise model if they're complaining about somebody they might as well work for another brokerage which they will technically. And so the mount of influence that OP or a team leader would have over a statewide virtual brokerage operation. I'll just go out and say it. My expectation is it'll be zero. And so the agents that I'm hearing from and you and I both knew a lot of them. This is what they're terrified about. They're terrified about the fact that hey I've been in this market for 10 years. I'm 15. I built up a great reputation and I don't want to have unequal playing field that I'm competing on where they've got better economic terms better caps better structure and then I have zero say over it. And here's the number one thing I'm saying is like I'm hoping that this is something that they announce that they'll have such a difficult time executing on that it'll never come. But I don't know that I can stick around here and support this if they basically bring in a competitor under the same flag in a different brokerage that's going to try and crush me in my operation. Jon. Sure. And that's the part that was unclear or like just objectively not bashing their plans by any means but objectively I don't know how it made any sense to only be opening up that virtual brokerage option to the chosen ones. I mean that's the kind of political stuff that is again filled by inboxes since I moved people out like I'm just so tired of the regional stuff and the Nationals that all this stuff being pushed down on us is like we just want to sell real estate like we don't want to talk about you know it's like how many bodies can we cram at the door etc. etc.. So it's like I just don't get how you can continue to be such a massive player when you're still ordaining people as worthy or not worthy to be part of the new generation. All right. And agents aren't stupid they're gonna figure that out and it's like they feel like they're being shunned we're being insulted twice like first when they weren't invited and secondly now that they're you know all of the advantages that they had from being the local expert are starting to evaporate. What's that going to look like. Like I have a pretty good guess and I moved my license accordingly but I don't know. Kevin. Yeah it'll be interesting. My expectation is we're at least 12 to 18 months out before you see any significant traction if even that early. Jon. Yep another big question it's you know put fear in a lot of people is what happens the profit share right. If you keep whittling away at these caps and everything goes cheap or free it's like oh there's no company dollar. That means there's no local profit. That means there's no local profit to share. So all these people that a you know bet on their property are continuing to grow... Again maybe there's some sort of elegant solution they thought of that I didn't think of but it's a real concern with a whole lot of people so I know I'm not the only one asking that question. They're smart people they run a good operation they built something pretty amazing. I have a feeling they'll figure out something. But I just don't know if it'll be in time or sufficient enough because they're working with a fundamentally obsolete model in the first place. Kevin. And I would echo what you said which is they have some of the best and the brightest both at international and in leadership that if there is a team that's going to figure out how to execute on that they'll figure it out. And I have the utmost respect for them. So I think that we'll figure something out. My bigger concern is the better they figure out the more chaotic it is to the actual franchise system right. Jon. Yep. Again I like to take the long view on these things because I'm still fairly young. Hopefully I have a lot of working years left. So I'm looking at 10 15 20 years in the future. If the result of all of this is that fees are lower for agents and service is improved for agents which allows us all to do a better job at servicing our customers than I think that's a net win for everybody. Right. There's always going to be competition. It's never going to be everybody works for one company. Right. It's never gonna be anything like that. So if there are five big players and a bunch of independents kind of like what we see now that would be OK.. if it raises the bar for everyone in the industry that we're going through this process and figuring out the virtual model and figuring out compensation packages that are more favorable for agents like I think that's great. I think it's healthy competition is healthy. I mean it's just part of how capitalism works. You know if we had no competitors that's what we get lazy that's when he get sloppy. So you know that your next competitors are always right on your heels should you take a rest and stop innovating when you're in trouble. So overall this whole thing is going to work out well for the industry and you know time will tell. Who were the big winners are. Kevin. Well absolutely and you know you can look at it on a broader basis and obviously there are announcements coming out that big franchise system may try and create a consumer facing portal that'll take on Redfin and certainly they may get better fruit their overall long term because they've got a better agent base. I mean if you look at specifically Redfin and you dissect their financials one of the things they have to struggle with is finding enough people internally to work as an employee. You know if you look at a system like EXP where we're adding 1500 and growing agents per month the growth rate the exponential growth that we've talked about who basically overtakes all of these entities in a very short a time and you know as we start to get better traction. Talked about earlier on the independent side that just doesn't stop. So when you look at what the overall industry should be worried about is you know if bricks and mortar is going away and I believe that is I'll get your take on it the second there's going to be a number of big huge shifts in the marketplace in this model where you're a non bricks and mortar better service better tools better platform is a great hedge against somebody trying to force the industry into an employee dumbed down comp pie on limited earnings model and because we're growing so much faster they can't get enough people to take them up on the offer to go sit in their model and make a lot less money than the top people in the industry make sure. Jon. Well no particular example you know or I think is going to would help them actually find some people would be a major shift in the market. So I remember talking with a team owner. She's had a team for a very long time. I won't mention her name. I have permission. But anyway clearly prolific you know we'll call her real estate famous lady. So she's got a team heard decades like before teams were fashionable and she figured it out and she said when the market was hot all of our agents wanted to be on a commission structure so they could make more money. And then when the market cooled off and it took more effort and more time to sell the house everybody wanted to be on salary. So she sort of goes through waves right. But I can see you know if you're running a salary model which you know the people drawn to it are generally not high producers that you would benefit if the market were to soften. And it takes more effort and skill to get deals done because people are going to sit on that salary. They'll be OK. Like having a salary and a small bonus versus keeping most of the money. So I think that would be interesting to see. I mean we're not seeing signs of the market really slowing down. Besides the regular seasonal stuff right now it still looks like we have money is still cheap cash still way more buyers than houses of most metro areas in the U.S. there seems to be no clear immediate solution to that. So yeah so is it getting away from bricks and mortar. I mean that's inevitable. It's happening in every industry. Like I don't know why you wouldn't expect that in real estate just because you have so many people who have built their lives and their brand around a physical location or they're just owners who aren't tough enough to stand up to their agents and say No you don't get a big cushy corner office anymore because you don't need it. It might say they think they need it or they think they deserve it but it's really it becomes a retention tool for some of these these brokers to just absolutely spoil their top producers because they know they have all kinds of better options out there and they're willing to pay to keep them engaged. Kevin. Yeah absolutely. Absolutely. I mean it's definitely something where I don't let those going to be 5 years from now or 10 but I think you can easily project out that bricks and mortar virtually nonexistent. If you're an agent thinking that this is all about your awesome office that you rarely go into. It's a great convenience now that you pop in there every once in a while. But between that and staffing and duplication across multiple offices it's the reason the brokers don't make any money. Jon. And it's eliminating all of those layers of expenses so we are able to keep the things we charged or even so low. You know it's like we don't have a lot of over to cover. We don't have managers and owners and regional people or offices and everything else. And we just did all of that has been eliminated so we can return those savings to the agents. Makes perfect sense to me. Kevin. Absolutely so John I ask this of every guest that comes on here and I know you know this I'm going to have you give me some final thoughts and then I want to get your contact information in the best way to reach you. If somebody is listening to this and wants to have a chat with you directly what are your final thoughts. What have we not covered the one to hope that we talked about today. Jon. Let's see. I think we had a pretty good chat. The whole revenue share versus share stuff. It's been interesting to hear people onstage and once they do talking about how well we tried revenue share and it didn't work for us Back in the 80s and 90s therefore it's never gonna work for anyone like we've already figured out that that's not an option. It's like OK that's fine. Like if you want to defend the property system because revenue shared and work for you. That's fine except there's a hole in that argument and that's not the whole story. So when this particular company went overseas a few years ago they rolled out a new program that wasn't profit sharing. It was a revenue sharing program. So if it didn't work in the 80s and 90s and you're saying that anyone who tries it today is going to fail because it doesn't work then why in the world would you have rolled it out five or six years ago. It's like that's way past the 80s and 90s and it was championed as an improvement on the current property system. So again that's not a story that's told in any of the groups that are fiercely defending their way of life but it's just one that I want people to hear. Kevin. And that's a great point. I mean the other fact when you and I were around I think I was around a little bit longer than you and certainly Gene Frederick's been around even longer is the detail that's left out which is that was based on bricks and mortar and a fully staffed operation and it was done when you have a couple of hundred agents at most. And you know I think most people would agree and I know you would and I would because we've talked about this that somebody tried to do a revenue share model with physical location of bricks and mortar staffing and all of the overhead. It's not going to work. Jon. No. The simple way to think of it is like the math doesn't work because you have too many expenses you'll never be able to keep it afloat unless you're a massive organization right. And even then I'd like to be massive with a traditional model you can have a massive space and more staff people so it breaks every time you try and make the argument for it. So but with a virtual setup it's wonderful. Like I've seen the number. I know we're not allowed to share it. I'm hoping they're significantly bigger than the ones that I was seeing with the previous system that I was part of. Kevin. Absolutely so John you know and this is for anybody here that's been looking at EXP. They're excited about potentially talking to you. We're all agent shareholders we're all pointing in the same direction. I'm going to have you give your contact information and for anybody out here, Here's essentially what you don't see behind the curtain which is we're all here to give you the best available information. If you want to reach out to John he's going to give your contact information and he's going to send you right back to whoever you've been talking to and whoever introduced you to EXP. So don't feel like you're doing anything you shouldn't be doing there's plenty of people out there to talk to you feel and reach out to me and get a hold of Gene or anybody else. We're all here to help you finish your due diligence. So John how would somebody reach you and connect. Jon. The fastest way is to text me by phone number is area code 720 605 1063. If you prefer to write a novel. Via Email that's fine too. It's Jon JON so no H. Jon.Sterling@exprealty.com. And just as a side note. As like. I talked to people all the time. Who are probably not ever going to join the EXP. Can't say never but it's like they have no intention of joining they just want to do some research and get my take on it. I'm always happy to have those conversations The way I look at it is look like you may be completely happy your company have no reason to leave or contractually bound to them for the next 5 7 years whatever. All I want to do is be sure that you're getting correct information so you can make the right decision. Like don't make your don't make your decision based on propaganda or what a competitor saying. It's like I'll get the facts. Right. So. If we're not your number one choice I just want energy for the number two spot. Kevin. And that's perfect because I can tell you that you know both Gene and I and everybody else that has a lot of conversations has had an interesting dynamic occur. You know sometimes it's not them but all of a sudden you get a call from somebody or a text and said Hey I talked to John Smith and I know you were speaking with him and he said hey you know what. I should follow up with you because I think this is a good fit for me because if it's not a fit for them it's potentially a fit for plenty of others. Jon. So that's a small industry. We can all use more friends in it regardless of company affiliation. So I will carry that attitude with me forever. Kevin. Absolutely John. Thanks for coming on and I appreciate your time today. Thank you. . Jon. Thank you.

In this podcast episode, we speak with Ross Pelton, RRh, CCN, about the variety of mechanisms of action that probiotics have when it comes to reducing cancer risk. Pelton also talks about colon cancer, H. pylori, and probiotic safety and dosage. Finally, he describes how to support a healthy microbiome with a healthy lifestyle. (Approximate listening time is 32 minutes) About the Expert Ross Pelton, RPh, CCN, is Essential Formula's director of science, in addition to being a practicing pharmacist, clinical nutritionist, and health educator in Southern Oregon. Pelton earned his bachelor of science in pharmacy from the University of Wisconsin. A certified clinical nutritionist, Pelton was named as one of the Top 50 Most Influential Pharmacists in the United States by American Druggist magazine for his work in natural medicine. Pelton teaches continuing education programs for healthcare professionals to use natural medicine and integrate it into their practices. He also has authored numerous books, including The Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, which is a gold-standard reference book for health practitioners. About the Sponsor Essential Formulas Incorporated (EFI) was established in 2000 as the sole US distributor of world-renowned microbiologist Dr. Iichiroh Ohhira’s award-winning probiotic dietary supplements and skin care products. Always an innovator, EFI introduced REG’ACTIV in 2015, containing ME-3, a probiotic catalyst that produces the “master’” oxidant glutathione inside the body's cells. A family-owned and operated business, EFI was founded on the philosophy of providing high-quality preventative, supportive, and comprehensive pro-health products for the entire family. EFI continues to flourish and grow through a strong company and product integrity and the knowledge that they’re providing scientifically proven products that positively impact the health and well-being of their customers. Transcript Karolyn Gazella: Hello. I'm Karolyn Gazella, the publisher of the Natural Medicine Journal. Today, our topic is reducing cancer risk with probiotics. Before we begin, I'd like to thank the sponsor of this interview who is Essential Formulas Incorporated. My guest is integrative pharmacist and nutritionist Ross Pelton who is an expert on the topic of probiotics and health. Ross, thank you so much for joining me. Ross Pelton, RPh, CCN: Hi, Karolyn. It's really nice to be with you. I enjoy our conversations. Gazella: Yes. Now, first of all, how does the scientific literature stack up when it comes to probiotics and cancer prevention? Are there published human clinical trials? Pelton: Well there's really not a lot of human clinical trials, but there's really quite a bit of research that has been conducted looking at cancer with probiotics. Human clinical trials are lacking, but there's a lot of work that has been done, cell culture studies and animal studies. There's a lot of work being done in this area. We just don't have the longterm human clinical trials which are very expensive to do. I think there's a lot to talk about because we've got substantial studies that have been published on the relationship between probiotics and cancer. Gazella: Right. So I'd like to begin by having you give us an overview of exactly how probiotics influence the microbiota to reduce cancer risk. Now, there are several mechanisms of action. So go ahead and fill us in. Pelton: Sure. Well some of your probiotics produce compounds that have antioxidant activity. Some of them have anti-inflammatory activity. They help to regulate detoxification. A lot of these functions are due to the fact that your probiotic bacteria produce secondary compounds or secondary metabolites that are called postbiotic metabolites. This is really the new frontier in microbiome science, starting to learn more about the compounds that your probiotic bacteria produce when they digest and ferment the food that you give them. Remember, these compounds have anticancer activity or protectant mechanisms that help protect against cancer. Gazella: So I'd like to focus on these mechanisms of action as they relate to reducing risk of cancer. So let's begin with a more well-known mechanism and that is, as you mentioned, probiotics influence immunity. Describe what the scientific literature tells us about probiotics and the immune system. Pelton: Well we know that 70% to 80% of the cells in your immune system reside in the gut. So it's really critical to have a healthy microbiome, a healthy gastrointestinal tract because that is the bulk of your immune system cells. One thing a lot of people don't realize is in the first 6 months of life, the primary function of your probiotic bacteria is to train your immune system. So it's really critical that kids get a good start in life with a vaginal delivery and adequate breastfeeding and for kids that don't, that's a compromised immune system. The gut is the seat of the immune system, and your probiotic bacteria are what trains the immune system. Gazella: So now, what about maybe a little less known activity which is, as you mentioned, the antioxidant potential of probiotics? This may not be on the radar of some practitioners. Describe this mechanism of action. Pelton: Sure. We know that free radical damage causes DNA damage and can increase your cancer risk. In a highly inflammatory condition in the gastrointestinal tract, there's a lot of free radicals being produced and a number of your probiotic bacteria have antioxidant activity and they also produce compounds that have antioxidant activity. There's 2 things going on here. Some of the bacteria themselves are antioxidants, but more importantly, they produce compounds that have direct antioxidant activity. In that respect, they're reducing free radical damage and reducing cancer risk especially for colon cancer which is a site of a lot of the free radical activity in a highly inflamed colon. Gazella: Yeah. We're going to definitely talk about colon cancer, but now, when it comes to this influence on immunity and antioxidant potential, are there research studies in vivo or in vitro studies indicating probiotics, which probiotics can help with immunity and antioxidant potential? Pelton: Sure. There's both some of the lactic acid-producing bacteria, Lactobacillus strains, and also some of the Bifidobacteria, bacteria that reside primarily in the large intestine and colon. One of the classes of antioxidants that they produce, they're called exopolysaccharides. That's a big word for people, but it just means that there are chains of sugars that the bacteria produce and then they excrete them and they have antioxidant activity. So this is just one of the mechanisms of action by which both Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria are able to produce antioxidant compounds that reduce cancer risks. Gazella: So the research tells us that probiotics can influence gene expression. Tell us how this impacts cancer risk reduction. Pelton: Well various different strains of probiotic bacteria can influence gene expression. They can influence apoptosis, which is the rate of cell death. They can influence metastasis. They can influence cancer stem cells. They can up-regulate tumor suppressor genes. So a number of different ways that probiotic bacteria and the compounds that they produce, these postbiotic metabolites can influence gene expression which ultimately is going to influence cancer risks. Gazella: So now, there's a significant amount of evidence and research showing that toxins can increase risk of cancer. What role do probiotics play in neutralizing some of these toxins or in supporting the detoxification of some of these toxins? Pelton: Sure. This is actually a pretty broad category. There's a lot of different ways that probiotics can have detoxification capabilities. Some strains of bacteria can detoxify or decrease the absorption of a cancer risk factor called bisphenol A. There's a lot of studies on that substance now that show that it increases cancer risk. This is a compound that's in a lot of products that are on the market, especially baby products. Some strains detoxify some of the agricultural pesticides. One of the Essential Formulas' products, Reg'Activ, contains a strain of bacteria called Lactobacillus fermentum ME3, and that strain of bacteria up-regulates a group of enzymes called paraoxonase enzymes. Those enzymes directly detoxify things like organophosphates, which are one of the commonly used pesticides in the agricultural industry. Other strains can directly bind some of the heavy metal toxins like mercury and lead and cadmium. They also decrease the absorption of these heavy metal toxins when they bind them up so they don't get absorbed into your system. They get excreted. Some strains actually metabolize cancer-causing food preservatives like sodium nitrate, and Bifidobacteria are able to degrade and detoxify a very serious compound called perchlorate. We get exposed to perchlorate from fertilizers in the environment and a lot of that in the agricultural industry. Heterocyclic amines are frequently caused by cooking meat at high temperatures. So our middle America, meat and potato people, they're out there with their barbecues and they're producing these heterocyclic amines. Some of the Lactobacillus organisms reduce the toxicity from heterocyclic amines. That's just a number of the different ways that your probiotic bacteria function as detoxifying agents in the gastrointestinal tract. Gazella: Yeah. It's a long, impressive list. Now, I want to get back to the ME3 that you mentioned. Are there scientific studies on that particular- Pelton: There are. Gazella: ... strain, the ME3? Pelton: It is a really, really fascinating topic because Lactobacillus fermentum ME3 synthesizes glutathione. Glutathione is the master regulator of your detoxification throughout your system and every cell produces glutathione, but it's hard to boost your levels of glutathione because, when you take it orally, it gets oxidized, it gets broken down and destroyed so you don't absorb it. But now we've got a strain of bacteria, this Lactobacillus fermentum ME3, where the bacteria actually synthesize glutathione. Yes, we have human clinical trials showing that the antioxidant activity of glutathione produced by the ME3 probiotic bacteria will reduce levels of oxidized LDL cholesterol so you're reducing your cardiovascular risk, and it does a good job of increasing detoxification throughout your whole body. The human clinical trial, people taking ME3 had an astounding 49% increase in the ratio between oxidized glutathione to reduced glutathione with the reduced glutathione is the active form. A 49% increase in the ratio of the reduced to oxidized glutathione is a huge, huge meaningful marker. This is really a revolution in healthcare and medicine to be able to boost your glutathione levels on a regular basis because, as I mentioned, glutathione regulates your detoxification. It's also called the master antioxidant and probably protects more of your body than all the other antioxidants combined. This is one area that is just really astounding both in terms of antioxidant protection and detoxification capabilities. Gazella: That's great. So I'd like to switch gears and I'd like to talk about specific cancers. When I think about probiotics and cancer, I often think about colon cancer. You mentioned that previously. What role can probiotics play in reducing the risk of colon cancer? Pelton: Well there's a number of ways that this can happen. Pathological bacteria will convert bile acids into secondary metabolites that promote cancer. When you have the proper acid-base balance in the GI tract, there's a dramatic reduction in the conversion of these bile acids into the more cancer-causing secondary metabolites. So maintaining the proper acid-base balance, which is what the probiotic bacteria do when they produce things like short-chain fatty acids and organic acids and nucleic acids, they create the proper acid-base balance which reduces the conversion of bile acids into secondary cancer-causing metabolites. Your probiotics can also inhibit the activity of carcinogenic enzymes. They suppress growth of bacteria that produce enzymes that deconjugate carcinogens. What I mean by that is that a lot of carcinogens get bound up and they're supposed to be excreted when you have bowel movements, but if you don't have good elimination and so things stay in the colon too long, those cancer-causing things that are bound up can get released and reabsorbed. So probiotics can actually suppress the growth of bacteria that produce these enzymes that are deconjugating these carcinogens. Good bacteria are actually keeping these carcinogenic byproducts bound up so they get eliminated from your body. Gazella: Well speaking of bacteria, it's widely known that there's a connection between H. pyloriand cancer. Can you describe that connection and tell us how probiotics can help prevent or even reverse H. pylori? Pelton: Sure. That's another big topic because now that H. pylori has been discovered and understood, we realize it's the primary cause of stomach cancer and cancers in the upper small intestine. This is an interesting bacteria. It's got kind of a corkscrew tail on it, and it can just burrow its way into the lining in the stomach or the lining in the small intestine. When that happens, you've got a hole in your intestinal wall. Then you get the acids and the digestive enzymes leaking through, creating inflammation, and you end up with a higher incidence of cancer. If you have a good, healthy microbiome and adequate numbers of your good bacteria, you suppress the growth or the overgrowth of H. pylori. There's a little bit of a controversy about whether people should try to totally eradicate H. pylori. Some people, some of ... Martin Blaser is one of the leading scientists that's exploring this and saying maybe we shouldn't totally eliminate H. pylori, but people that have H. pylori overgrowth certainly do have increased risk to gastric cancer and small intestinal cancers. It's having a good microbiome and adequate numbers of your good bacteria that will keep the H. pylori in check and not get overgrown so you reduce your cancer risk. Gazella: What are some of the symptoms of H. pylori overgrowth? I mean how does a doctor recognize this in their patient population? Pelton: Well as I described, the bacteria has this corkscrew tail that burrows through the unprotected mucus lining in your stomach or your small intestine. When you get that hole in the lining, you've got an ulcer. It's painful. Your digestive acids, your stomach acid, and your bile acids and small intestine. Then they go through the mucus membrane which is your protective barrier, and they come into direct contact with the cells that line your GI tract. When that mucus protective layer is breached, then those acids contact those cells that line the GI tract and it's painful. You've got an ulcer and you say "Oh, man. This is sore." So people actually oftentimes stop eating because every time they eat, they get more digestive juices in that ulcerative location. You need to heal that ulcer. Getting rid of H. pylori is one thing, but you also have to take time to heal the ulcer. Gazella: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now so far, we talked about colon cancer, stomach, upper GI. Are there any other cancers when it comes to using probiotics? I mean do you pretty much recommend probiotics as a risk reduction strategy across the board? Pelton: I do because your immune system is so directly related to cancer risk factors. A lot of people don't realize that probiotics have an effect outside the intestinal tract. We now know that things like short-chain fatty acids get absorbed into your system and can actually reduce the risks of liver cancer. It's a whole body effect. These bacteria are not just a local effect in the gastrointestinal tract. I kind of use the analogy of Mission Control at NASA where those computers are controlling your space flights. Well your probiotics and the postbiotic metabolites in your small intestines and your colon are really Mission Control for all health-regulating effects in your whole body. There's a new study that I wanted to share with you, Karolyn, published just recently in a journal called Oncotarget. It's a cancer journal. It says cancer killers in the human gut microbiota. One of the things they're reporting here is that they identify intestinal bacteria that exhibit potent antimalignancy activities on a broad range of solid cancers and leukemia. So this is a relatively new paper just published in July of 2017, identifying that postbiotic metabolites and your probiotic bacteria are helping to reduce both solid cancer tumors and leukemia. It's just an exciting new report giving more emphasis on the anticancer capabilities of your probiotic bacteria. Gazella: Yeah. I think this area of research is going to just really explode. Now, a lot of patients go into their doctor's office and they say "Oh, well I'm fine. I don't need a probiotic supplement because I eat yogurt everyday," or something like that. How easy or difficult is it to get the probiotics we need from diet alone? Pelton: It depends on what you mean by diet. If people are eating fermented foods, that's a really good source of probiotic bacteria, but most people aren't eating sauerkraut and kimchi and tempe and things like that. Most foods don't have probiotic bacteria. People think about yogurt, but commercial yogurts have a lot of sugar which actually promotes the growth of your pathological bacteria and yeast like candida. So commercial yogurts are generally not a good idea either in terms of just not getting a good source of probiotic bacteria. You're really working against the health of your gastrointestinal tract and your microbiome. If people produce their own yogurts, there are some good ones. Yes. But you're really not getting a diverse level of bacteria in yogurt, and a healthy microbiome is a diverse microbiomes which means you want to get a lot of different types of strains of bacteria. The best way to do that is to consume a diet that has many different types of fiber-rich foods, especially the multicolored vegetables. That's the number one food source for your bacteria. Gazella: Right. We have to feed those good bacteria. Pelton: That's right. Gazella: So now, you represent a specific type of probiotic, the Dr. Ohhira's brand. Why do you recommend that specific brand of probiotic? Pelton: Well I'm glad you asked that. I'm the scientific director of Essential Formulas, and Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics is our primary product line. Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics are made differently than every other probiotic in the world. In fact, it's kind of confusing, but Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics is really not primarily a probiotic. It is primarily a fermented food. The Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics are produced in a fermentation production system. We have large fermentation vats in a warehouse, and we start with 12 strains of probiotic bacteria. Then at seasonally appropriate times throughout the year, we shred and harvest dozens of different types of organically-grown foods. There's fruits and vegetables and mushrooms and seaweeds. Then the bacteria get to digest and ferment these foods for 3 years before the product is finished. During that fermentation process, the bacteria are breaking down the foods and producing this wide range of compounds that we now refer to as postbiotic metabolites. As I mentioned earlier, these are the master health-regulating compounds in our system. So Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics have been tested and we find out there are over 400 postbiotic metabolites in Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics. We are not primarily just delivering probiotic bacteria. We're delivering over 400 of these postbiotic metabolites that rapidly create change in the GI tract. You rapidly reduce inflammation, rebalance the acid-base level, promote the growth of healthy new cells that line the GI tract, cell signaling and gut-brain communication directly with postbiotic metabolites. We get what we call rapid microbiome restoration or rapid microbiome repair. Other companies are just giving you bacteria in a capsule. That's kind of like a starter culture. Those bacteria haven't done any work yet. Our bacteria have been working for 3 years producing postbiotic metabolites by the time you ingest them. That's the big difference. Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics is different than every single other probiotic in the world. The new science in the microbiome, the new frontier in microbiome science is starting to realize that it's these postbiotic metabolites that have the master health regulatory effects in the gastrointestinal tract and health-regulating effects for the entire body. So by directly delivering this postbiotic metabolites, we get rapid improvement in the microbiome in the gastrointestinal tract for people who take Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics. Gazella: Now, I know this particular product does not have to be refrigerated. Why is that? Pelton: Well these bacteria learn to thrive and survive at room temperature during the 3 years of fermentation. They don't need to be refrigerated, which makes them very user-friendly. Also they are in a patented capsule that stays hard in the harsh acid environment in the stomach. Then it preferentially releases the contents in the small intestine. So it doesn't make any difference if you take it with food or on an empty stomach. Any way you take it, just the main thing is 2 capsules once a day. Get Dr. Ohhira's in on a regular basis and you'll be maintaining a healthy microbiome. Gazella: Yeah. I'd like to talk a little bit about dosage because honestly it seems like you can ask 3 different experts about dosage and they'll give you 3 different answers. When it comes to dosage specific to cancer prevention, is that the 2 caps per day? What does that deliver in terms of CFUs or different strains for that two caps per day? Pelton: Well 2 capsules a day is the recommended dosage. One thing we emphasize, we're not concerned about how many million or how many billion bacteria we have. There's a numbers game that is really a misconception by people when we're talking about probiotics that they call the bacteria that are available CFU which stands for colony forming units. It really means just the number of viable bacteria, but people have a misconception that more is better. They say "Mine has 30 billion. Mine has 50 billion. Oh, mine's got 100 billion." They think more is better. One of the most critical factors in a healthy microbiome is balance. If you take massive doses even as a healthy strain of bacteria, you're not working in favor of balance. You're actually working against creating balance in the microbiome. So it's not important to have high strains of, high dosages and high numbers. It's better to have a multistrain probiotic, a lot of different strains but at lower dosage levels. I really talk in my lectures and seminars against the high-dose probiotics. I'm not saying they're never appropriate. A product like VSL3, which is a prescription probiotic, I think it has 112 billion bacteria per dose. Those people have some good research and have documented benefits from their high-dose probiotic, but I don't think high-dose probiotics are appropriate on a longterm maintenance basis. You want to strive for balance and diversity. Gazella: Yes, I would agree with that. How many strains are in the Dr. Ohhira's product? Pelton: Dr. Ohhira's has 12 strains. We start out with 12 strains in the manufacturing process. We are a multistrain probiotic. I'm not sure, but Dr. Ohhira may have been the first scientist in the world to understand the concept and the importance of a multistrain probiotic because he created Dr. Ohhira's Probiotics 30 years ago. Gazella: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about safety. When it comes to cancer prevention, are probiotics safe for the majority of patients or is there any patient or group of patients who should not take probiotics to help reduce cancer risk? Pelton: No, everybody should take probiotics. One of the most important things for health is a healthy microbiome. We now understand that a healthy microbiome is the foundation of health. I think it's important for everybody to realize that supporting and maintaining a healthy microbiome is a critical factor for health regulation. There's no contraindications. I do want to mention briefly, Karolyn, there are 2 studies that were recently published in the journal Cell that have gained a great deal of publicity because they cast doubt on the effectiveness of probiotics. The scientists who conducted these studies stated that their results suggested probiotics are almost useless. There's been a lot of pushback after the publication of these studies. It turns out there was some methodological shortcomings in the way they set up their studies, and there were a very low number of people. I think there was only 8 to 12 people in these studies. What's more disturbing is that it has been learned that the scientists that conducted these studies, they have a personalized approach to probiotics that they promote in their studies. Turns out that they have a vested interest. They have financial interest in this company that's promoting this personalized approach. So it's a very serious flaw and their conclusions should not be generalized of the whole field of probiotics. Allowing studies to be published in which the authors state that probiotics are almost useless is really grossly misleading and a disservice to the general public. Gazella: Yes, I would agree. Now, I often like to ask experts to grab their crystal ball and look into the future. In your case, I'd like to have you tell us what you'd like to see happen when it comes to probiotic or postbiotic metabolite research in the future. What do you want to see happen as we go into this next phase? Because I'll tell you, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening. There's a lot of different directions we could go into. Pelton: You're absolutely right. It is a very exciting field and rapidly evolving. As I've talked about these postbiotic metabolites, the compounds that your probiotic bacteria produce, in the future, we will learn a great deal more about the health-regulating effects of these compounds that your bacteria produce and we'll learn more about which strains of bacteria are more effective at producing some of these health-regulating postbiotic metabolites. I think in the future, we'll probably make a great deal of inroads and progress in designing personalized probiotic programs for people. We'll be able to assess your own innate microbiome and be able to know more accurately how to promote and enhance the growth of your own innate what we call your probiotic fingerprint, the bacterial population that you've developed early in life. I think we'll get into more of a personalized microbiome and personalized approach to probiotics to help promote health in individuals. Gazella: When you think about cancer specifically and reducing cancer risk, I mean now obviously, it's estimated that 1 in 2 men and 1 in 3 women will develop cancer in their lifetime. I mean this is now reaching near epidemic proportions. How critical is it that we look at things like probiotics when it comes to reducing cancer risk? Pelton: Well again, I go back to the immune system. It's absolutely essential that people have a healthy microbiome so that they have a healthy immune system. This is really where it starts. Your gastrointestinal tract and your microbiome are literally the foundation of your health for everything that happens. It is the number 1 thing that people need to be aware of and it's not just the microbiome. As we mentioned earlier, you have to learn how to feed your probiotic bacteria well. This is another key message of mine. This is why diet is so important because you're not eating just for yourself. You're eating to feed 100 trillion guests. It's a pretty big party that's going on down there. Every time you eat, you have to realize that you're feeding your microbiome, and your microbiome is the center and the foundation of your health and your immune system and your anticancer activity. So people need to realize how important it is on a regular basis to eat a wide range of different types of fiber-rich foods, especially the multicolored vegetables, because a more diverse fiber-rich diet will promote the growth of a more diverse microbiome which means your bacteria will produce a wider range of these health-regulating postbiotic metabolites and you will be a healthier person with a stronger immune system. There's a recent study that was just published that shows that, reports that people that consume more probiotics take less antibiotics. That's just another insight into probiotics being able to support your immune system. So these people using probiotics more have a stronger immune system. They have less need over time for antibiotics. Gazella: Yeah. That antibiotic issue, that's something that we ... That could be whole other topic for us. Pelton: It's a big one. Gazella: But as an integrative pharmacist, you share a philosophy with our listeners who are, most of them are integrative practitioners. It's not just about giving a pill and calling it a day. It's a very comprehensive approach, and I like the fact that you focus so heavily on diet and using a healthy diet to feed the probiotics and the bacteria and that you use probiotics hand-in-hand with that comprehensive lifestyle approach which I'm assuming, beyond diet, you counsel people to exercise and get enough sleep and those other lifestyle factors as well. Pelton: Absolutely. Those are critical factors. There are studies now that show that your probiotic bacteria respond to exercise. Exercise needs to be emphasized. So it's diet and exercise, lifestyle. All these healthy things go into creating and maintaining a healthy individual and having a healthy aging process. It's not just probiotics and it's not just diet as you mentioned. It's exercise and sleep and learning how to avoid environmental toxins. There's lots of things that go into it. Gazella: Right. Treat your microbiome well and it will serve you for a long time to come. Pelton: It will work for you. Absolutely. Gazella: Well great. Well Ross, this has been very informational as per usual. I want to thank you for joining me. Once again, I'd like to thank Essential Formulas Incorporated for sponsoring this topic. Thanks so much, Ross. Have a great day. Pelton: Nice to be with you, Karolyn. Always enjoy speaking with you.

Do you need dating tips for short guys? In case you are shorter than Tom Cruise, this podcast will change your dating life forever. But even if being short is not your biggest issue, you should listen anyway. Because I'll show you how to turn your weaknesses into your strength and what really matters when it comes to meeting, attracting, and dating beautiful women. Don’t forget to check out my book: https://www.globalseducer.com/rise-of-the-phoenix/

Ian Allan is a psychic and intuitive Witch living in Johnson City, TN. He owns and operates Appalachian Witchery, where he teaches classes on Appalachian Folk Lore and Magic, he offers tarot and psychic readings, as well as magical consultations and spell creation. WE TALK ABOUT: unique Appalachian spiritual culture divination, water witching, dowsing, folk magic, ancestor veneration, books of shadows the definition of real magic the difference between magic and manifesting MENTIONED ON THE SHOW Rumours - Fleetwood Mac Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler The Spiral Dance by Starhawk Talking Appalachian by Amy Clark Power of the Witch by Laurie Cabot with Tom Cowan LaurieCabot.com Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner by Scott Cunningham The Witches' Voice GUEST LINK - IAN ALLAN Appalachian Witchery HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Ian: My name is Ian Allan. I live in Johnson City, Tennessee, was originally raised in a small coal-mining town in southwest Virginia. Not West Virginia, but Virginia, the southwest corner called Wise. Grew up in a kind of traditional Appalachian family. Became more knowledgeable, I guess would be the world I would use about dreams that I was having and feelings I would be getting about people I would meet at churches or in public atmospheres that would start becoming true. And so I became pretty obsessed with occult sort of ideas from a very young age and it just kind of started developing from there, around the age of 13, is probably when I really started working on developing certain gifts or abilities, if you want to use that word. And it just kind of went on from there. I became a public tarot reader in which I, about 11 years ago, I have been doing all of that for over 20 years at this point now, but really stepped in to the public sphere about 11 years ago and started reading for the public and offering classes on different topics relating to witchcraft as well as, specifically, Appalachian folk magic. Slade: Okay, so I'm just curious when you meet someone for the first time in real life and they ask you what you do, what do you say? Ian: Um, well, previous to March, I would pretty much say I teach Appalachian folk lore and magic. I also read tarot cards. It's not something I've ever really been shy about telling people. Slade: Okay. Ian: I... Just last October, had an interview with the local newspaper and my picture's in it and it's titled Appalacian Witchery. So if people have read the paper, they saw my face, they read an article about me. It's not something I've ever really hidden. It does, obviously, get a lot of weird looks or eye rolls sometimes, but that just kind of comes with that whole idea of being a witch. People don't want to think that we exist sometimes or that we're just crazy people. So it's something I've gotten used to. I've gotten a thicker skin over the years. Slade: One of the reasons I ask that question, and I've started asking it of a lot of the people that I interview is because so many of the people who listen to this show and the people that I work with in particular, are in some kind of process of sort of coming out of the broom closet, or coming out of the psychic closet. Coming out of some kind of closet, right? It's helpful to hear other people's stories and also hear sometimes that we don't all just walk around, you know, like carrying a sign, you know? Ian: Oh yeah! Slade: You know, there's a very, varied nuances to how we answer that question and how we go about in the public. And you've been confronted with the very real reality of having the local newspaper feature you, whereas I'm kind of anonymous locally but yet more globally visible, you know what I mean? So it must be a little bit different being like, but you're the town witch, you know! Everyone's gotta have one, right? Ian: Exactly. Exactly. Historically, yeah. Every village had a witch or shaman who could do herbalism, who would also do magic on the side. So yeah, every village, every town, usually had someone that they would go to, and I'm okay with being that. And I'm not the only one here in Johnson City. Believe me. There are plenty of witches here. I guess I am probably one of the more outspoken ones who hasn't hid himself away, or herself away. So with that does a certain lack of anonymity within the public locally. And I'm okay with that. I like taking care of my community. People who you wouldn't suspect would come to me for readings, for discussion of spell creation and that sort of thing. People who are, you know, ministers' wives, ministers themselves, but, that's days... kind of like, I always view it as a... almost like a psychologist sort of thing where, if you come to me, you come to me and it doesn't leave this room. No one's going to know your name, no one's going to know what we talked about. Slade: Right. Ian: It's definitely helped word of mouth, I guess, for my business, if you want to look at it that way, but it's more of a, I like taking care of my local community. Not that I don't care about my global community, I do care about them but, growing up in the 90s, there was that whole 'think locally'.. 'think globally, act locally', adage, so I've always kind of tried to live by that adage. If I can affect my small town in some way, then they'll start affecting the world at a larger rate than I could by myself. Slade: Yeah, well listen, there are people who listen to this show from all over the world. I mean, Australia, Singapore (I have a lot of fans in Singapore for some reason - hey guys!), Europe... You know, places where, even maybe there's people in Canada who don't really know about the Appalachian region and culture that we're talking about. You are from a city called Johnson City, which is in northeast Tennessee, kind of in the corner with North Carolina and Virginia. So if you would, just kind of explain for everybody a little bit about what Appalachian magic and folk lore is, as, you know, how you would sum it up. Ian: Okay, well, the first thing that I always do in my classes is discuss the word that you're pronouncing. You're saying, Appa-LAY-chia, I pronounce it Appa-LATCH-a. Slade: Mmhmm. Ian: And there's a reason for that. There's kind of an imaginary line, like the Mason/Dixon line, about the pronunciation of the word of the mountains that we live in. And below this imaginary line, so probably somewhere below Washington DC, northern Virginia, sort of area, you're going to hear it pronounced Appalachia. Above that they're going to say Appalachia. And part of that is, you know, it's just dialect. But it was a way for people back in the 1800s into the early 1900s to know who was an outsider and who could be trusted. Because the carpet baggers who would come down to the south, into the Appalachian mountains, or the coal miners or the coal companies who would send in people from the north, they would say Appalachia and we learned they weren't fully to be trusted because were exploiting us. They were stealing our land, they were stealing our property. Stealing our coal, taking our trees and then leaving us in poverty. And so, words, first off, have a lot of power. They have a lot of meaning, so... and it's not wrong to say Appalachia, because the people in the Appalachian mountains into Pennslyvania, Vermont and Maine, they DO pronounce it Appalachia. So their pronunciation is right for them, but when you're talking southern Appalachia, it's more proper to use that pronunciation of Appalachia. Slade: So I sound like a carpet bagger! What the hell. I'm from Tennessee! Actually, you know what would be funny is if I wasn't looking at that word written down and I was surrounded by my family (because my dialect changes depending on who I'm speaking with) I wonder which way I would say it if I wasn't thinking about it. I'm going to be listening for it now and like, how my family says it. Anyway. I didn't mean to interrupt. But go ahead. Ian: Oh no, that's perfectly fine because what you just talked about is like, if you were hanging out with your family, how would you say it? That's what we call code switching. We all have different ways of talking and different words that we use, depending on who we're talking to and what event's going on. There's a great book by a great professor of mine who I, from the University of Virginia's college at Wise. Her name's Amy Clark. She wrote, or she edited a book called Talking Appalachia, and it's a book of collected essays about, or people from around the Appalachian region who wrote about code switching, basically, how they talk and why they talked the way they did. It's a fascinating thing if you're into linguistics. Slade: I was a linguistics major originally in college, yeah! Yes I am interested in that! Ian: Yeah, so, that's a good thing and I've totally rambled off of your first question. So, your question was more about Appalachian magic and folk lore, correct? Slade: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of people... So we've identified a little bit of the area physically, geographically, that we're talking about. Why don't you tell us where the magic part comes from, or maybe what's unique about Appalachian magic? Where did this fusion of stuff come from? Ian: Okay. So Appalachian folk magic is really kind of a conglomeration of Scot beliefs, Irish beliefs, English beliefs, German, and a little bit of Turkey, practices, as within this area because it was pretty isolated and even to this day, they consider the Appalachians isolated, from the rest of the larger United States. But, these groups of people started settling here in these mountains and they would share some of their beliefs with one another and they kind of just created a mixing pot, a nice mix in a cauldron, if you want to keep good doing the witch stuff, beliefs and culture and created something that was more unique. I think it's probably the most American of practices. Because I mean, you do have folk magic in New England, but it was very much colonial English practices that they continued because that was who settled there. In the mountains, you had more, more people who came from sort of the lower echelons of society, so to speak, come in to the mountains because they said, 'Oh! No one settled here. There's plenty of land. Let's move here and create our own wealth, not realizing how rocky and sandy the mountains were, not really fit for a lot of farming. So then their life, the hard scrabble life, created different myths, different practices, different folk lores... Things like the wampus cat are definitely Appalachian in origin. That's sort of how all this came about was. Different people from different, but similar backgrounds, coming together to live and then just having to share with one another because of how isolated the area actually was at the time. Slade: Hmm... Okay, okay. So you mentioned the wampus cat. What are some of the topics that you teach classes about when you teach Appalachian folk lore? Just kind of tell us, what are some of the topics? Ian: The first one that I always like to teach, and I usually teach it maybe twice a year, once in the spring and once in the fall, as just kind of an introduction to Appalachian folk lore and magic, and that just covers a broad series of topics, such as who settled the area, where do we get it, some folk remedies. I discuss some of the legends like the wampus cat or, as he's now become named, the Wood Booger, which is not the most flattering of a name for a creature in Appalachia, but, you know, whatever. Call it whatever you want. It's a big hairy man, kind of like a big foot running around in our woods. And then we talk about divination techniques and in some of the other classes I do a class just on divination techniques that are unique here to this area, which, of course, are also similar to other things that people do in the broader world, like dowsing is a big thing within the mountains, especially what they call water witching, and that's where a person has a special ability to find water would take a specific type of wood, and the wood varied, depending on the family. My grandfather used peach tree wood to dowse for water to dig a well. Whereas other families I've known, they use ash or even elder to dowse with. But then of course, water witching is, has been done all over the world and also pendulum, using things like a wedding band on the woman's... taking a piece of hair from the woman's head and dangling her wedding band over her pregnant belly would indicate male or female. I teach a class on just specifically Appalachian techniques. I also teach classes on how to read playing cards as a divination tool and tarot cards. I teach some modern witchcraft classes. Slade: Well, let me take you back into the past a little bit and come back up to where your knowledge is now, but... So for a long time I've really been wanting to talk to someone on the show about witchcraft and magic because I come to all of this new age stuff from an identification as a witch at a really young age and so my family is very much Appalachian and I've got some Appalachian witchery, you know, a few steps back, like grandparents, but I very much grew up in suburbia. So for the most part, I grew up in Knoxville, Tennessee, so, you know, a decent sized city suburbia, so my identification as a witch (I have to tell you this story because i haven't told it to other people), but I was probably about 8 or 9 years old because I actually looked it up to see when the Fleetwood Mac album Rumours came, because that was 1977. I loved that album. I remember, it must have been soon after that because my family was going on a car trip somewhere, like maybe to Florida or something long like that and I think my mom had told me that I could buy a magazine at the grocery store. So I got her to buy me a Rolling Stone magazine which she was kind of like, Why do you want a Rolling Stone magazine, you know, you're 8! But it was because there was a feature on Stevie Nicks, and in that magazine, I got it because it was just HER and it was cool pictures of her and I was like, Oh, Stevie! Ian: Oh yeah! Slade: So I'm in the back of the car driving through Georgia in 1970-something and I'm reading Stevie Nicks talking about white witchcraft and how, you know, she's a white witch and all this stuff. And I had this total epiphany of like, Ohmygod, I'm a white witch, that's what I am! From that point on, I was always interested in wicca as a teenager and in college, I kind of discovered... I did a Women's Studies certificate in college, just because it was like you could take these more interesting cool kind of classes that were feminists but they were within different things, like some kind of feminist history or something like that and... After you took so many of them, they actually will give you a certificate in Women's Studies and sometimes I was the only guy in these classes but I just liked the topics. I would the syllabus, or the class listed in the roster and be like, Oh that sounds amazing! So anyway, I got turned on through this Irish women's studies teacher of mine to all this really modern feminist paganism, right? So I was reading, one of my favorite books is, there was an NPR reported named Margot Adler who wrote a book called Drawing Down the Moon. It's kind of a collection of all the various different types of modern witchcraft in America, or modern neopaganism. And then probably the big one for me, a big game changer was The Spiral Dance by Starhawk. That was when I kind of connected the whole feminine principle of the goddess, you know, like the lifeforce in the Universe as being a feminine thing, which was instinctively true for me and she kind of made that intellectual connection for me, in a way. So anyway, I'm wondering, what is your version of that? What were your... How did you come to this? Were there other people in your family or did you just.. you know, were you encouraged? Discouraged? What was your story of how you discovered this part of yourself? Ian: Oh yeah! I guess the easiest way to explain it, I have to go back to the 80s, when I was first... Because I was only born in '83, so... It was a weird time, being born in '83 or the late 80s in the area of the Appalachians that I grew up in. Because I grew up, like I said, in Wise, Virginia, and that is on the very tail end of Virginia. It's about 20 minute drive to Kentucky. Coal had started to fail. It was no longer king in the area, and so people were starting to lose jobs. Mines were closing down. The world there was trying to figure out what to do next. Sadly, they still haven't figured it out. But that's a whole other podcast... Slade: Yeah, right. Ian: ...to talk about the devastation of coal companies on the people within Appalachia. That area was very stuck, trying to figure out, how do we move in to a sort of modern mindset when we don't want to? We still want to be very old-fashioned, very traditional, in our community, and I kind of got swept up in that as I was coming of age, thinking, there's nothing here for me. Watching MTV and thinking, Oh, I'm going to be on Real World or Road Rules and that's how I'm going to see the world. Trying to get away from it but very deeply still wanting to connect with where I was being born. And the word 'witch' was never used in my family as far as describing my aunts, or my great aunts, or my great uncles, or any of that. Because they were very Christian, and that's also something I try to stress in my classes is, I use the word 'witch' because I think it's the most apt word, and witchcraft is the most apt word for describing the practices people did here. But they were very staunchly Christian. And so, everything they did came through the power of prayer to Jesus or to God. They weren't real hip on the Catholics either. Slade: Right. Ian: There are many a sermon I sat through connecting Catholicism basically to Satanism. So growing up, they weren't real hip on Catholics, even though my dad is from, well, he's an army brat but his family ended up settling in the Fairfax area and they ARE Catholic, so half of my family is Catholic and the other half is very traditional southern and Free Will Baptists in the mountains. But everyone in my family still did things. They would interpret dreams, they would talk about ghost stories. The professor I mentioned earlier, Amy Clark, in her English composition class, I think it was Composition 102, she made us do an oral history report and I went and interviewed my great aunt Fern, and collected all sorts of folk lore and stories about the road I grew up on. Because growing up, it was mostly all my family that lived on this road. She shared a story about how my grandmother and her cousin Ione used to go stay with this lady out on this back road called Red Wine. And everyone thought she was a witch. Things would move in her house without her touching them, and my aunt Fern didn't really know a whole lot because she was never invited to go sleepover there, so she just got second-handed stories.. There were definitely stories growing up that I would hear and then there were also the herbal remedies that my grandmother would make, or other people in the family would make for people being sick. I started having dreams from a very young age, where I was like, Oh, this is actually real. This is happening. And they were more literal dreams. They weren't the ones I would have to go interpret like, Oh, there were three cows in my dream. What does that mean? It was like, Oh, I'm walking into a church and here's someone that hasn't been in church sitting there and they're getting ready to give a testimony about how they've been sick and then that Sunday we'd go to church and that would happen. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting. And I also just really loved stories about witches, about vampires, about the monsters... That was where my interest as a very young child was at. Like, I remember specifically in second grade, my best friend Ashley had wore her mother's winter cloak to school and we went to library. I took her cloak and put it on like a cape and was running around like I was a vampire. I very specifically remember that because I got in trouble for that. Because it was a library and I was not supposed to be running around having all this fun. While everyone else was there checking out the Hardy Boys books, I was in the weird section checking out the children's versions of Frankenstein or Dracula, those sorts of books. So I would try to watch anything on TV that my mother would allow me to watch about witchcraft or whatever and I became... obsessed is probably the best word for it. Kind of became obsessed with it, especially the Salem Witch Trials. Halloween is still my favorite holiday to this day so I always looked forward to the fall and specifically, October, because then, you know, when Discovery channel and the History channel were actually about science and history, they would show specials about the history of witchcraft, or the history of vampirism. Even if they repeated the same thing ten times that month, I would watch it every time it came on. Slade: Yeah. Ian: And then when I was 13, we took a trip to... It was a whole big family trip. We drove with the entire family, some uncles, some aunts, up to Gettysburg to see the re-enactment, probably on 4th of July, around the 4th of July because I think that's when they do all their re-enactments. So we went there and then we were following my mom's brother on up to Connecticut where him and his wife had moved to, and I realized that Connecticut was very close to Massachusetts. I convinced my family to take a day trip to Salem. So one day we all piled in the car, drove I think 5 - 6 hours to Salem. And I was... I guess awestruck is probably the best word for it. Because I was like, Wow they're talking about witchcraft like it's something that anyone can do. That it's actually real and tangible and I remember seeing this woman walking down the street in long black robes with her staff and black hair flowing. And then I discovered who that was, and it's a woman named Laurie Cabot, the official witch of Salem. I was like, Wow, witches are real! I bought my first deck of tarot cards when I was there and then we came home and I just started reading tarot cards with the little white book that came with it, for friends and family. That slowly started to develop more and more, and then I purchased a couple of books on wicca and witchcraft, one being Laurie Cabot's book, The Power of the Witch. And then a book by Scott Cunningham, I think it was Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner. And then I discovered, Oh! There's a shop in Kingsport called Dilly's Curiosity Shop. And they had books and herbs and candles. It wasn't JUST a witch shop. They had tons of stuff on the New Age movement, on Hinduism. It was just kind of a hippie, new age sort of store, and once I became old enough to drive, you could usually find me there every weekend or every other weekend, spending my hard-saved allowance on books and candles and things that I needed. So it really started from there, was when I really discovered, Oh wow... So about 13. Wow, witchcraft is real and, you know, this is what my family's been doing and what I've been doing naturally for years. Starting to study it from there just kind of helped develop it more into something that wasn't just an occasional, Oh I'm having a dream, or I'm getting a sensation from meeting this person, or I feel like I need to leave some food outside for whatever gunk might be creeping around outside to protect the house. That sort of thing. It wasn't just something that I did spontaneously anymore. It became more of a honed practice. Slade: Yeah... Yeah I was going to ask you, actually, let's see, I'm going to come back to that and ask you a little bit about your personal practice but... I'm interested in, first of all, all those books were taking me back. I used to work in one of those stores, like your're talking about. It was called The New Moon. I basically was the person who chose the books for the magic section. All the people who worked there, we all kind of had our different area of expertise. There was somebody who did all the crystals and stones. There was a guy who was a Druid and he did all of that. There was a guy who was into Buddhism, so all that section of the store, he would advise the owner what to buy. My thing was goddess spirituality, wicca, this whole thing. So the books that you're naming off, I'm like, Yeah, yeah we had that book, we had that book. I'm interested, you know, when I was talking about Starhawk. Starhawk always defined magic, which she took from someone named Dion Fortune, as the art of changing consciousness at will. So I kind of wonder, what's your definition of magic? What is that, to you? How does it work? Ian: Yeah. It's a question that, you know, most people want to know a definition too. And as I said, I've studied and practiced for 20-something years, so I've read all the definitions, Dion Fortune, Starhawk, Aleister Crowley, and I think, yes, they're all pretty accurate. The art of changing consciousness at will - I like to take it a little step further and it's more than just changing your consciousness. It's also... Because changing your consciousness is one thing. But being able to change physical reality is a whole other, and I know they... As you get deeper into the magic conversations and topics, we talk about micro and macrocosms and how if you change your consciousness and you are changing physical reality but being able to literally change your physical reality is part of my definition of magic. So it would be more like the art of changing physical reality and your consciousness at will, in alignment with natural forces. Because I don't believe that there is anything really supernatural about anything that witches do. We are using natural energies and natural forces. We're just using it in a way that most people aren't aware of the ability of how to manipulate those energies to effect the change we want to see. Slade: She goes on in her definition, she talks about the art part as using sensory imagery and symbols that evoke emotions and then the will is kind of directed energy and intention, and together, those things sort of mix and shift, because we're kind of swimming around in this emotional-thought-energy soup, or whatever. You know what's interesting to me, see, is that sounds like people talking about Law of Attraction and talking about manifesting. I started blogging 12 or 13 years ago and the vocabulary that was popularized by The Secret sort of eclipsed some of what we call magic. It was like, no longer fashionable to use the word 'magic', now it's 'manifesting'. Do you have any observations about the relationship between those things? Is that something that you notice as well? Ian: Okay. So yeah. I definitely believe that there is validity in the Law of Attraction in its relation to magic. I am definitely not going to be your love and light person when it comes to this conversation because I think most of what we get with Law of Attraction is bullshit for the most part. When it comes down to - you have cancer because you wanted cancer - you wanted to be sick, I think it's especially (and I don't want to name names because I don't want to start any internet wars with anyone), but there are people who purport this Law of Attraction and about being in alignment with it, or stepping out of it, and you have to step out of it to know when you're in alignment with your Law of Attraction. It's very victim-blaming to me. Slade: Yeah. Ian: The way that they discuss it sometimes. And it's not helpful. And it's not been official, for the people who were in crisis mode, because then they think, Oh well I did this to myself. And yes, there is a part of it that I believe we do to ourselves. We make choices, whether they're conscious or subconscious choices, we make them, that create our realities. I mean, that's true. If I choose not to do something, I'm going to have the consequences of that action. But the manifestation of magic is definitely, you do certain things to attract what you're trying to get in your life. If I'm trying to get a job, I'm going to put my energy into my resume of attracting the job I want. And as a witch, I will take it a step further and anoint the edge of my resume with an oil blend I've made to attract a good job for me. Or the best job for my highest good. I'm going to do that and send the resume in and I guess now, most things are electronic. I know some witches who, electronically, they have a very faint... what's the word that I'm looking for... it's on the back of paper that you put on... a watermark! A very faint watermark of a sigil that they created. And, a sigil, you know, is just an image that you create and you imbue with a certain energy. So they would create a job sigil and put that onto the back of their resume before they emailed it out. And so, for me, that's more how the Law of Attraction works. It kind of goes back to the ideas that I grew up with. Being raised in a Christian home, but a magical Christian home. You know. God helps those who help themselves. So if you're acting in alignment with something that you want, then the Universe is going to provide that. But you have to do it in the accurate way. And so, for me, I don't like using the term Law of Attraction just because of all of that baggage that I feel comes with it. And how simplified things like The Secret made it. It's not just, Ooo I'm going to sit in my house and make a pretty dream board and hang it up and it's going to manifest. At least in my experience, it's been, You can do that, but if you don't put in the work to try to manifest it, the Universe isn't going to give it to you. I think the Law of Attraction has been simplified and that it has... Because the new age movement has a lot of money behind it, especially when you're being published by people like Harper Collins or the bigger publishing companies. They can definitely get you more exposure than Llewellyn could get you. I don't think you'll see many Llewellyn books on the best seller's list the way that you will, you know, Penguin or Harper Collins. Those sorts of publishing companies. So definitely if it's going to feed the capitalist society, then they're going to pounce on it. And so, yeah, I guess that's my answer for your question on Law of Attraction! Slade: That's cool! I'm very happy to hear your take on all that because it does... I think it always sort of... I feel the contrast in it and I'm always aware, kind of, of the intersection of that terminology, so... I'm one of those people who I use other people's vocabulary in order to reach them. Like you were saying, for instance, there are a lot of really Christian people who use Christian vocabulary to talk about magic, so if I'm going to talk about magic to them, I'm going to use their vocabulary because otherwise you shut them down if you start coming at them with, you know, like calling it the 'goddess'. If you're talking to a 90-year old woman about folk lore and she's talking about Jesus, just call it Jesus. You know what I mean? Ian: Exactly. Slade: Just keep on going. So, to me, it's always a language thing. It's interesting. Your whole thing about the word 'Appalachia', I did not know that specifically, so that was a huge epiphany for me to hear that about the idea of how it identified someone from being somewhere else. I was a linguistics major and I'm always interested in language and, to me, as a writer, magic and spell-crafting is very much, sort of rooted in a lot of language and when I do assessments of my mentoring students, I actually listen for the way in which they speak about these things. And that doesn't mean the obvious stuff like the symbolism and the archetypes and the buzzwords. I actually am listening for the actual words that they use, like, are they using passive language, are they using a lot of visual language, do they speak emotionally, those kind of things sometimes tell you a lot. It's subtext. Ian: Yes. Slade: To shorten the story. So I'm interested... you touched on a couple of things. The whole thing about the resume was interesting. What other kind of... not the things you necessarily do for your clients that you teach, but just in your own personal life, what kind of rituals do you observe? Or what kinds of magic do you do every day, kind of household magic? Ian: Okay, yeah. So household magic. That's always been kind of a big part of most folk magic. I always like calling it 'folk' magic instead of calling it 'low' magic because it makes it seem like it's something less worthy, because by definition, 'high magic' is like super occulty sort of things where you have to have a special robe and special pentograms painted on the floor. And then, I don't know who popularized the terms 'high' and 'low' magic but low magic was what the common folk did, and you know what? I'm a common folk. I like being a common folk. I don't want all the responsibility of being John Dee and deciphering things for Queen Elizabeth. That's not my interest area. I don't want to go and sit in the White House, especially this White House, and manifest messages for any political figure, especially what we have now. So my daily practice, there is, and this is something that people from almost all backgrounds, culturally, they have, if they dig deep enough, is ancestor veneration. Ancestors play a big part in my practice, and in the practice of the Appalachian people, as well as other cultures as well. I'm not forgetting them. It's big in hoodoo and voodoo as well, in African American and African traditions. But it's also big in European traditions. And so I definitely try to make sure I light a candle for my ancestor's altar every day and just kind of say hello to them. Let them know that I'm still thinking of them and, thanks for being who you were because then I can't be who I am if it wasn't for you. And that's not to say that all my ancestors were great people because they weren't. We all have those rotten branches and the rotten fruit on our family trees, and so, in classes, I do teach ways to kind of, you know, you don't want to invite all of your entire ancestry into your home because you might have a child molester or murderer or serial rapist in your family and that's definitely not what you want to invite into your home. So I teach ways to kind of try to helpfully, try to hopefully help them along on the other side to get to where they need to be. In my practice, I try to light a candle for them every day, just saying thank you, because sometimes, my magic is just me going to the alter and saying, I really need your help. This is the situation. And I'll bring them food. I'll cook them a special meal of whatever it is that they specifically like. Usually it's cornbread or something very southern. Cornbread, soup beans, pork chops, really salty country ham that I can't try to eat because it's too salty, but I will set it at their alter and light the candles and kind of say a prayer to them. It's sort of like the idea of Catholics asking saints for help. That's how a lot of witches use ancestors, and sometimes that's all you need to do to get help. You might get answers in your dreams from one of your ancestors. And it might be even someone that you don't know is your ancestor. A random person will pop up in your dream and give you the answer. Or things just start magically happening in your life, like I was really needing help to get this job and then suddenly you get 4 job offers. That sort of thing. I try to bless my food before I eat it. I do a lot of garden work. So I definitely try to take care of the plant spirits. In my belief structure, every ... I'm what you would consider an animist, so I definitely believe that every plant has its own very specific spirit, the dirt has it's own spirit, so I try to get to know that spirit, talk to it, learn about it. I am the crazy person in my condos that's seen outside mumbling to themselves and I think that's where the idea of witches, you know, muttering to themselves came from, is that we talk to everything. Things that no one else would see, we would be talking to the trees, to the plants, to the birds that were up in the trees, and also muttering spells under our breath for, usually for the good. Not all witches do things for the good of all, but I mean, that's usually my general practice. I don't a daily spell. I'm not... mostly because my life doesn't dictate that I need it. My life isn't that hectic that, I have to put it back together, always! Slade: Right. Ian: I do magically craft things. I make what's now commonly referred to as Books of Shadows, you know, spell books. I tea-stain pages with special herbs for special meanings, like keeping secrets and keeping power in the book and I'll bind them and add in special pictures and I try to sell them. Sometimes I just give them as gifts. I do magical crafts pretty much on the regular, making witches' cords, which is kind of a braided cord with special items like oak leaves or tarot cards, feathers, generally I have a very specific purpose in mind for each of them. I will make one for protection of the house, one to get a job, one to be enchanting, to have enchantments over people to make you feel... kind of like a glamour.. make yourself look more appealing and you just kind of really hang these in your home or your office for whatever purpose it is that you.. I would create it for you and, just looking at it, kind of helps imbue you with that energy because all the energy is there and kind of just drips down, like a rain cord.. And so, that's pretty much basically my daily practice. Like I said, I don't do spells every day just because my life doesn't dictate it, that I need to do a spell every day. But I do sit in communication with the spirit world almost every day. Whether that's plant spirits or my ancestor spirits or both. Slade: You are like me, you're like a like-minded soul in that you want this to be normal and part of your every day life. Like, it doesn't have to be some high ritual, like there's something almost off-putting about that, to me. Whereas something that I can incorporate into my daily existence, I'm a big sweeper. I sweep a lot. Ian: Oh yeah. Slade: You were talking about, that's where the images of witches outside, you know, crazy people muttering spells to themselves, I'm outside sweeping all the time. I'm that weird little old person who's like, I'm practicing for when I'm a little old man out there sweeping the sidewalk. So you've talked a little bit about these magical crafts. Now how does that play into, you do professional magical consultations and you create spells for people. So is there something similar in what you do for your clients? Ian: Yeah. Definitely. Just to get back to the brooms, I'm obsessed with brooms. I have... I don't know how many brooms I have hanging in the house, but I love brooms. I love the magic of sweeping. I have a specific broom for sweeping my front lawn, and then I have a specific broom that I use if I go to a client's house to clean out energy or angry ghosts or that sort of thing, that I only use for that specific purpose. Magical consultations might involve my broom, depends on what they come to me for. A client will, you know, usually contact me on my Facebook page or my number is on my Facebook page too, or they'll call me. And they will set up an appointment time. Sometimes I know beforehand because they want to share a little bit over phone about, this is why I need to come meet you. I'm having a hard time in my marriage, or I'm having a hard time finding a job. In the meeting, I take a lot of notes. I know that's off-putting for some clients. Like, why are you writing this down? And I'll write it down because, while I will remember most of things, I don't remember everything when I go back home, and start creating a spell or ritual for the person. And so, they'll bring me their issue, or their troubles, or what they're trying to magically create in their life. And, the consultation usually involves a reading of some sort. I'll get my cards out and see if there's some, if there is a block to what you're trying to do. Because sometimes we do create blocks for ourselves. Or there are people in our life that are blocks. Like if you're trying to save your marriage but your partner is not wanting to save your marriage and they're completely over that marriage, you don't want to try to force a marriage with someone who's really trying to escape it. And so, it's important for me to do these readings that I'm doing, consultations, because I don't want to trap someone into a marriage that will eventually make both people completely miserable. Or, the job that they're trying to get, we will look at that specific job and kind of look at the future and be like, Oh, you will be happy here so I'll craft something to help you be more enchanting in your interviews, or just draw the energy to you specifically for this job. Or if it's the other way, this job is going to be a terrible fit for you. You will like it for a bit but then it's going to be super draining. I would do something more like a road opener, so to speak, to make them more open to more offers of jobs, to a bigger spectrum of jobs, where they might need to take that job initially, but continuing to be open and going out and try to attract the job that's going to be most beneficial for them. So I will sit down and talk with the person, do a reading, and then I usually try to bring so many different herbs and things with me, so I can create little baths the person can take if they need a cleansing bath, or a bath to make them have more self-esteem, that sort of thing. I can create that on the spot and give it to them. But if it's something that requires more work, like if I have to go purchase certain items that I don't have on hand, then we set up another time to meet. If it's something that I need them to do, because for me, magic is most potent if the person that needs the magic is involved in it in some physical way. Whereas if I'm just at my house, doing a spell for you, I'm not going to have as much emotion in it as you are going to be able to manifest for yourself. Because it's affecting you more than it is me. I can pull up as much emotion as I possibly can, and I do, and I send it out. Not every spell is going to work. It's kind of a 70, 80% chance that it's going to manifest the way you want it to. Because... I'm a big advocate when I talk about magic is, magic is going to take the path of least resistance. So you need to be specific and general at the same time in what you're trying to manifest. I know that sounds like a contradiction, to be general and specific, but if you're just, Oh, I need money, and we do a money spell, you might get an inheritance but your mother might die. And that's not what you're trying to manifest. So you want money, but what do you want that money for? So you want that money because you want to go on vacation. So let's do a spell for that vacation instead of just money. Slade: Interesting, yes. Ian: And that's where the consultation come in handy instead of someone just sending me a message saying, hey I need a spell for this, and me sitting down, okay cool. I'll just write you the spell and do all the stuff in the instructions and you do it. Because it might manifest in a way they aren't expecting or wanting. And so, getting... And that's why I take so many notes. Getting down to the nitty gritty, exactly what the person is trying to create with their lives, dictates exactly what type of spell or magical ritual, if I feel it needs to get to that point would dictate. Slade: Is this something that you always have to do in person or can you do it over the phone and send people things? Ian: I can do it over the phone and then mail all the stuff out. Sometimes there are things that I will do on my end. And then I'll just send pictures of my work as I'm going along so they know I'm actually doing it. Slade: Okay. Ian: Instead of, you know, there are crooks out there who, I would do a spell for you, send me $400! Slade: Right. Ian: And then they sit at home and eat popcorn and watch Netflix. And then send you a message, I've done it! You should see it happening. I try to keep things on the up and up as much as possible. So I will send people pictures as much as I can. I do think sometimes taking pictures and documenting it can sometimes zap a bit of the energy out of it because... that's my own personal belief. I'm kind of going back to the idea of electronics pulling energy, but... Slade: Huh... Well, I think that, well one thing that electronics does do is it allows us to reach people that aren't here. It takes away the distance somewhat, so that you can, you know, speak to somebody that's on the other side of the country. But I would think that, the fact that there is this sort of physical object that you often create, you know, like the cords or a little grimoire or something like that, there's something, you know, the reason I can never be a Buddhist is because I like attaching energy and emotion to things. I find objects that have been imbued with power and emotion and association and intention to be extremely delicious and I want them sitting around on my shelves and stuff, you know? I think that's one of the ways in which magic really differs, but I would think that there would be something to that sort of crafted item that is uniquely special, to the way that you do readings and healings. In working with people who do different kinds of readings or healings, I usually talk to them about the idea that there's a diagnostic part of their session and there's a healing active part of the session. For me, it's all language. It's all words. It's basically, I'm an enabler and I can give you a big pep talk and that is the way that I heal. For other people, it might be something like, doing reiki, or like you said, it might be going clearing spirits or it might be crafting this item, spell, and then you use the intuitive part as a kind of diagnosis. Like, what's really going on here before I go messing with it? What's underneath the layers? I think that your practice is really kind of cool and unique and the reason why I asked about if you could do it at a distance because I know that there are a lot of people listening who are going to want you to now, and you know, gonna contact you and say, Wait a minute! Can you do this over the phone because I really want one. Let me... Before we talk about how people can get in touch with you, I just want to ask you a couple of questions. One is... Are we doing okay on time for you? Ian: Oh yeah. Slade: Okay cool. I'm loving this conversation. I could talk to you all day. You can come back once a month. So what do you most hope to contribute to the sort of greater conversation about spirituality and new age stuff? You touched on the idea that, of course, being published by a major publisher can sometimes falsely put those ideas forward. I'm very much a proud indie author, podcaster, and... If you can put your work out there into the world, what is something that you kind of hope to maybe change about everybody's perception about magic. Ian: Well, I guess it's two-fold. My main goal, when I started Appalachian Witchery, was to try to preserve Appalachian culture, at least an aspect of Appalachian culture that has kind of been pushed into the dark corners. Even people who do Appalachian studies, they don't really, or at least in my experience, because I haven't read every Appalachian studies paper or book known to man, but they don't really discuss a lot of the witch folklore, or the magic that they would do. So I was very worried that it was a part that was kind of being lost in the conversation when we were talking about Appalachia. And so, I kind of wanted to bring that to the forefront because I'm very proud of where I'm from. I'm not ashamed to say I was born in a very small town. I think we had 2000 people in it, and I think the county may have had 6000 people altogether. And then when it comes to witchcraft and magic, just that, I want to de-myst... not really demystify it, because there is power in it being kind of a sacred, hidden spooky sort of thing, but that it is something that... I can sit down and craft you this spell but you are going to be the one that... I need you to actually do part of it for me. So that everyone can kind of understand that everybody has the ability. Everyone has the ability to tap in to these natural forces and kind of take charge of their own life in the process. Because, I mean, we live in the quick-fix prescription society where, I have a problem. Give me a pill. Let's fix it. And I think that kind of correlates into the occult world, the new age world at large. People come to healers and workers and think that we can fix them in one session. And they don't have to go home and do any work on their own. And that's sadly not the case. If you go and get reiki, yeah you're going to feel better. But when you go home, you need to take some of the things that you've learned in your session and start applying them to your life. If you're not applying them, then you're not actually doing the work and you'll start making those decisions again and ending up in the same place. So it kind of goes back to that whole, idea of power of attraction. If you're not willing to make the changes, then you just keep attracting the same thing that you've been doing. And so, for me, when I do the consultations or I do the readings, I really try to embed that idea that, it's good that you're coming to me for getting an outsider's perspective. Because you're getting some advice, some knowledge that you wouldn't have had otherwise, but ultimately the work lies with you in order to make those changes. I can assist you and I can help you at that, but it is mostly personal responsibility. And I guess that's really what I try to stress most. Is preservation of a culture and personal responsibility for your life. Slade: If someone's listening to this and realizing for the first time that they might be a witch because of our conversation, which will happen. What would you advise them to do first? Like, if they feel this real flush of like, Ohmygod, this is amazing, this is the thing for me. Where would a new person go to kind of begin learning about this? Do you have any particular resources or books or things that you would recommend? Ian: The first thing I would say is, if you're kind of acknowledging, Oh wow, I might be a witch, is not to go running through the streets announcing that to everyone. Because that... And we do that sometimes when we discover something new that we're very passionate about. We're like, Oh this is what I am, this is who I am. Slade: Yeah... Ian: And it's off-putting, especially when you're, if we're talking, I might be a witch, is, you will encounter a lot of those people that are going to try to extinguish that light. Tell you you're crazy, it doesn't work, it's just nonsense, so that's my first advice is, don't run out telling everyone what you think unless they're someone you can really trust. And so, finding those people is the next step. And there are resources like The Witch's Voice online, I think it's www.WitchVox.com Slade: Okay. Ian: And they have a dropdown menu on one of the, either the right or left hand side, I haven't been to the website in awhile, and you can select your state or your country of where you're living, and then narrow it down. People post group meetups there, they post kind of personals. Years ago I had one on there myself. Trying just to meet like-minded people to talk and discuss... Facebook is a great resource. I'm a member of a lot of groups, like Pagans of the Northeast, which is all situated north-east Tennessee. There's Friends of TC, which is Friends of the Tri-City, which is what we call the area I live in. Johnson City, Bristol, Kingsport, is a Tri-City area. And then anyone who is any sort of pagan or witch, can post their events, can post meetups there. So finding those people, and you can just go into like, Facebook and type in "San Diego witchcraft" and you're going probably going to find a ton of options, groups, that sort of thing there. Books-wise, I always like to start people out with the basics. One being, I am a Cabot Witch. I've trained with Laurie Cabot and I'm actually going for my second degree in two weeks. Slade: I forgot to ask you about that - yes take a second and explain what that is. The Cabot Tradition. Ian: Okay. Yeah! So the Cabot Tradition is created by Laurie Cabot. It's known as the Cabot Kent Tradition and Laurie Cabot is just a fascinating woman. She was one of the first to be a public witch in America in the early '70s. And she had been initiated and trained by some witches in Boston, I believe, back when she was, I think, 15. They came from Kent, England. When she started teaching publicly, she titled her tradition the Cabot Kent Tradition because she had added some of her own flavour into things, which is always so important to me, when people are trying to teach witchcraft, I'm like, you need to have done it long enough, for one, to teach it, and two, to have your own, sort of ideas and structure and traditions that you've created to teach. Because witchcraft is a very personal thing, and that's something that Laurie brought to it, was that she had spent all these years crafting herself as a witch and had all these years of knowledge. So she started teaching in Salem in the mid-70s and I think by the late 70s, Dukakis, Governer Dukakis I think he was at the time, gave her the official title of Official Witch of Salem. Since then, she has been on Oprah, a bunch of other talk shows, teaching about witchcraft and her tradition. And she, to this day, she's 85 now, and she's still teaching the classes and being present at the rituals, the 8 Sabbats that they follow. The 8 high holidays for her tradition, and for kind of witchcraft at large. We have 8 holidays that we usually follow. Some traditions are a little different than others and they don't do all 8, but... About 2 years ago, I had the availability, the time and the money to go and study in her Witchcraft 1 class and got my first degree in the Cabot Kent tradition, which, when I was 13, that is who I saw walking down the streets of Salem. I was like, Oh! Slade: Ohmygosh. Ian: And so, as I studied more from the time I was 13 on, I realized who that had been who I had seen. I was like, I have to study with this woman. And then 20 years later, it manifested! Slade: Wow... Ian: I had put it out into the Universe all those years ago. And sometimes that's how magic works. I would love magic to be like Bewitched, and we could wiggle our nose and it manifests on the spot, but sometimes magic takes a long time to actually manifest into your life. So I studied with her back in 2016, and then coming up, July 15th I'm going back up to Salem for my second degree in her tradition. So yup, that's a fascinating little very rough history of her that I gave you. Slade: No, that's cool. I intended to ask you about it earlier. It was something that, because the whole tradition thing is an avenue that a lot of people explore. There are different lines of witchcraft, different types of traditions... I'm really speaking from kind of a lone practitioner, eclectic sort of person, which you also do, kind of in your every day life. But I think one of the takeaways for me for someone if they're new is to... like you said, well good on Facebook. There are some things that Facebook does really, really well, and that could be one of them. Is to connect with people locally. There is a lot about, when I go back to my interests in these subjects and where they came from, a lot of what I learned was physically in a certain location, or, you know, was a certain kind of shop, like you talked about. Most cities have that cool little store where there are people working there who are a resource, there are people putting flyers up for events. It is kind of, there is something about the power of where it takes place, you know what I mean? Like, different parts of the world, different parts of the country, have different energy, have different... Because this is so connected to nature. Even though you can use the internet as a tool to kind of find some resources, if you can ground that in people where you are, I think that would be my advice based on your advice, you know? Ian: Oh yeah, yeah. That's perfect advice because, like you said, the way that someone's going to connect to their place is going to be different depending on where they're at. Someone in Singapore is definitely going to have a different sort of, probably even different definition of witchcraft, and practice of witchcraft in Singapore, as compared to me, sitting here in Johnson City, Tennessee. We're probably going to go about it 2 different ways. So yes, if you can find a local spot, then definitely capitalize on that. Read the flyers. Talk to the store owners. Talk to the people that are working there. Because I did, as well, work at a sort of a metaphysical shop for about 8 years when I moved out here to Johnson City. And people definitely talk to the shop workers about what they're doing, what they're looking for, any sort of meet-up or ritual, gathering, that's going on. So they are a plethora of information. But you have to talk to them. You have to ask them. Slade: They're like metaphysical librarians. Ian: Yeah. Slade: But you're right. A lot of people who work in those stores are not just retail employees. They're there because they have knowledge about herbalism or knowledge about crystals or they're specifically involved in the community in something like a local circle or coven, something like that. That's where you'll find them, if you want to meet them. And, you know, they're often identified by their jewellry. Ian: Yeah, yeah. We witches love our very large pieces of jewellry. Slade: Statement necklaces. Listen, I know it always kind of puts you on the spot a little bit when somebody asks you to recommend books or something in the middle of a conversation, so I'm thinking, after we have this conversation, you're probably going to think of things like, Oh! I should have mentioned this book or this website, or whatever. So you can send those to me if they come to you and you think of something you want me to put in the show notes. Because I'll put all the stuff that we've talked about in the show notes and links to different books and sites and stuff so if you want to add to that, we'll have some time here from the time we're recording 'til it goes out. Ian: Okay. Slade: I'll be working on that and you can... It's also interesting that you'll be going on your trip to study with Laurie again probably around the same time that everyone is listening to this. Ian: Oh, wow! Okay! Slade: Yeah, that same week! So yeah, there's going to be a lot of energy behind you. A lot of people are going to be thinking about you and what you're doing up there. And then when you get back, they're probably going to want to contact you. It's been really fantastic capturing this conversation with you. I feel like I'm kind of running long on time. We'll have to have you come back at some point and go down some specific rabbit holes. Because this is a... You're the FIRST witch to be on this show and given the fact that I identify with that word as well, it's kind of like, Dang, why haven't I talked about this? So you're representing for a big canopy of topics here and I appreciate what a good job that you did in making it kind of specific, and unique to you and your practice. But also introducing the topic at large to a lot of different people. This is a big, big topic. There used to be statistics out there about neopaganism and sort of the growth of that spiritual tradition statistically, in this country. And there's a lot of people interested in this and wanting to learn more about it. Tell everyone the best place they can go to find you online. What's your Facebook page? Ian: The best place is going to be my Facebook page. It is just titled Appalachian Witchery and there is a picture of the Blue Ridge mountains, so the mountains are going to look kind of blue and it's going to say 'Appalachian Witchery' in red font. I used to have a website but that is a whole other story about that, that I'm not going to get into, because it was cancelled by the people that owned Square. Slade: Ooo interesting! Ian: Yeah. There's a whole thing about occult business and how they don't support them. And they cancelled my website... Slade: Oh, wow! Ian: That's basically the story. I made them quite a bit of money. Slade: Wow... Ian: And then they decided to delete me and a bunch of other people, based on the content of their website, which was really just me selling my crafts and my classes. You could buy a seat to my class on that website, which made it so much easier for me, because I could say, I can seat 30 people and put 30 tickets up on the website and then they would sell and I wouldn't have to worry about trying to send out emails letting people know that I'd gotten their money and the seat had been saved, which is what I've had to go back to, at this point. Slade: So everybody can definitely see what you're doing on your Facebook page, because I saw where you'd posted some stuff talking about the upcoming class that you're going to do with Laurie and so, I mean, it can do a lot of things for you, and it's good enough for people to go and check out what you're doing. Like you said, you have your number there, so they can email you and call you and set up a consultation. And of course, I'll link to it. It'll be easy to find. This was really great, Ian. I've wanted to talk to you for awhile. I've enjoyed following you on Facebook for so many reasons. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. Ian: Thank you for inviting me. I've enjoyed being able to talk about my practice and things. So definitely, I'm very much interested in coming back and talking more about things. Because I'm not JUST a solitary practitioner. I actually have a group here in the mountains and we've kind of crafted our own tradition here that I would love to talk about. Slade: Okay, cool! Ian: About what we do and how we've kind of crafted this tradition. Slade: Yeah! Maybe we can time it with one of the holidays or something, and put some intention around some of those traditional witch points in the year, you know what I mean, like... Ian: Oh yeah! Slade: That would be really cool to do some content around some of those. Or maybe we'll have you come back for Halloween, since that's your favorite. We'll do some stuff around that. Ian: The witches' busiest month. October. Slade: Yeah. Ian: Yeah! Definitely. Slade: That would be great! Ian: I very much look forward to it.

Shirlene Reeves, your host, interacts and discusses with Terry Wildemann the importance of;Overcoming the fear and anxiety around sales while participating in Earth School.Learn about our newly activated monthly surprise where you can chime in with your questions on Facebook at https://fb.me/AscendedMastersAtWorkThe importance of reading a person intuitively for connectionThe Rotten Tomato story told by Terry WildemannDiscover what it's like to be intuitive and if you are, which modality you are most comfortable utilizing for guidance.#Business, #Intuition, #Sales, #Spirit, #SellingThroughYourHeart, #PodcastTranscriptWelcome to Ascended Masters At Work radio with your host Shirlene Reeves, the world's business success coach and author of Selling Through Your Heart - Empowering You To Build Relationships For Financial Freedom, where we focus on taking the right step-by- step actions towards generating a consistent business income. Listen in as Shirlene empowers small business owners. On Ascended Masters At Work radio you'll discover the secrets to building an effective, income generating business, find the answers for selling your programs and products without rejection and get the solutions for building a strong financial foundation. Get coaching with Shirlene Reeves, and her guests, on how to develop integrated programs so compelling that your clients can't resist saying yes. Now let's welcome your host, business success coach Shirlene Reeves. Hello my friends. It's wonderful to be here with you today. We have a great program. We're going to start off with a little fireside chat because I really am looking forward to sharing some very important information with you. I have some great news. I was doing my meditation the other day and spirit said to me, "I think you should start teaching more about how people can work with each other and how they can do business together." And the other thing that they suggested is that I have a person who does channeling once a month that talks to us about what's going on in the economy or what's going on in the world and why we're experiencing these things. We've got volcanoes popping off. We have freezing rain on the Big Island. Who would think? I've never heard of such a thing and neither have the scientists. We have the strangest things going on so I invited Maha Kury come on the show. She's going to be talking to us, once a month, to let us know answers to the questions that you provide us. So I'm hoping that on our Facebook page, Ascended Masters At Work, that you'll post a question that you would like to learn about. But I digress, back to sharing some information with you about business and overcoming our fears. "No one limits your growth but you.", says Tom Hopkins. "If you want to earn more, learn more. That means you'll work harder for a while, but that means you work longer for awhile. But you'll be paid for your extra effort with enhanced earnings down the road." One of the biggest challenges we have is overcoming sales fears. The fear and anxiety that surfaces around sales can absolutely paralyze and doom your business. Many entrepreneurs are afraid of sales but instinctually believe that bringing their mission and their message to the world is why they are participating here in Earth School. They push themselves so hard that they become ill, overworked and physically hit bottom, no longer able to run. You know what I mean, run? So many of them are flying hither and yon and speaking everywhere they can get a speaking opportunity and they're getting sick. They're falling down. It's too difficult. Because someone has told them that they need to make a seven figure income. I'm going to give you a secret. You don't have to make a seven figure income. You can make a six figure income very happily, and live very comfortably, while still saving for the future. And there's other ways that you can save for the future to. You don't have to run yourself into the ground making a seven figure income. So don't let people tell you that. Or if you know of people that are making a seven figure income, sit down and have a chat with them and find out how their health is doing today, how overworked are, and how little time they have for their family. There are many people in business who have enough modalities, credentials, Knowledge and experience to paper the walls. But they're searching for the answer to who they are and they have no idea how to blend everything that they know and do into just one business. Do you have that problem? So many entrepreneurs are experiencing that problem. The members of this group usually have searched for years and spent thousands of dollars looking for the answer to one most important question. "With everything I know, how do I say what I do?" Wow that is a challenge. This one question is the platform for the next step in your business success. Without this answer you will feel paralyzed with fear. After all how can you sell what you do without the answer for who you are as a business. It's interesting because two clients recently came to me with one baseline question. "I know so much that I don't know where to begin. Every time someone asks me what I do a wave of fear washes over me and I don't know what to say." One client already spent over $10,000 on her quest with absolutely no results. The other had been working with two coaches, for six months, but she still hadn't found the answer. Both clients were about to give up when we started working together. It took no longer than two hours of one on one work to discover and create each one's business identity. And today they feel a sense of peace and excitement, while stepping forward confidently into positioning their business and interacting with potential clients. These and many other clients say that now, when potential clients ask them what they do, it's easy to explain their business identity succinctly and confidently while putting their new relationship development into practice. What's important about the point I'm making here is that without intuition I wouldn't have been able to support these clients to reach the answer that they were looking for. It's all about drawing it out of them when it comes to this kind of coaching and intuition is what sincerely makes a difference. This brings me to our guest for today. A lot of what we do in business is intuition so I thought I'd invite her on to talk us. But I'll tell you one thing, she really loves talking about business and intuitive leadership. And we're going to expanded it a bit today and talk about how to have a positive conversation. You might need to change your mind set first. I talk a lot about that in my Selling Through Your Heart book. The whole first section is all about how to change your mindset, so I know she's really going to chime in on this. She has a consulting business on intuitive leadership, intuitive business and she's an accelerator coach, speaker, and best selling author. Her name is Terry Wildemann and she works with socially conscious CEOs, small business owners, and leaders to take their business to the next level with speed ease and flow. Don't you love that? Speed, ease and flow. I really like the way that sounds. She's been in business for about forty years and had all kinds of experience with leadership and that includes owning a manufacturing company, an image consulting company, and a leadership and holistic education center. She has taught at universities, community college and her clients absolutely love her. They are entrepreneurs, bankers, bankers government agencies and even the chamber of commerce and, believe it or not the US military, which I'm sure needs to know how to have positive conversations. Let's welcome Terry Wildemann to the show. Welcome Terry, Thank you Shirlene. It's nice to be here. Well it's fun to have you and your angels are always surrounding you so I really really love having you on the show. It's fabulous. Thank you. Yes, they are always with me. My wonderful angels are constantly with me. Yes, and that's what makes life worth living. Let me tell you. Alright, so I want to talk to you about, why do we have to be intuitive about leadership? I love that question. Well, leaders are who are intuitive. They are able to bring out the best in themselves and in their people. Folks who look at themselves as being a leader often manage and managers tend to work from a very practical and logical perspective. It's more about the rules of the road, what to do, what not to do. It's more of a left brain type focus. Rise to leadership is the emotional side of the house. And when you add intuition to leadership, and all of us have intuition, even the folks who say to me, "Oh, I'm not intuitive." I'll always find some place where they've been intuitive. We're born with our tuition. And to be able to add the insights that come through our intuition, and it's different for everyone. Add that to how we lead. It adds an extra layer of credibility to our leadership. And it gives us insights to really be the best that we can be in terms of communication, in terms of listening, and in terms of being heard. Looking at an intuitive perspective, as a leader, are you saying that they have to be able to read people's minds to know what to say? (Laughter) I knew you'd like that. You know, one of the things about being a really good leader is understanding how people communicate. For example, it's about reading their body language. Listening to their tune of voice. Those are the two biggies. Once you do that you listen to their words and those three things give you lots of insight on how to speak that person's language. It's not about being psychic, so to speak. Not everybody has to be psychic. But our intuitive gifts come in different ways. Some people see images. We call that clairvoyant. Others hear words to guide them. That's clairaudience. Others feel, which is clairsentient. They feel a specific way and others are claircognizant. They just Know. Knowing how you get your information and then being able to read the person who's in front of you from a body language, tone of voice, and words perspective. You integrate the two of them together and it's a powerful combo to understand where the other person is coming from. That's really interesting if you are in front of the person, is how you read their body language. Like, we're doing just audio right now. That's right. When you're talking to somebody I know that we listen to the speed of their tone and what their inflections are. But that one piece, that body language piece, is missing when you're doing an audio. Well, you can actually hear a person's body language in the audio. And you may not be able to see it, but you can feel it, and it actually affects the way we speak and our words. So yes, the body language can actually come through. And you tune in more to the tone of words, the inflection and the energy. Because if you don't see something, the other senses pick it up. That's a really good point because I know people who are deaf, or who are blind, they have a tremendous amount of sense in their other faculty. So you're saying we utilize those as if we were blind. Is that right? Absolutely! And when I used to... this business actually started thirty one years ago when I was an image consultant. I still say, this is common to the ladies specifically. Always wear lipstick when you're going to be on video or on stage because people who are blind have very strong hearing and people who are deaf have very strong eyesight. And those of us who are gifted with both, use both. Therefore we you have the lipstick on your lips are actually brighter and clearer and people can hear you better. Hmm, that's a really good point because I think we kind of read lips anyway whether we're deaf or we're not. Yah exactly, exactly. We do. Wearing lipstick brings the lips in focus. It just makes it easier for the eyes to tune in to what the person is saying. I'm always telling my celebrity guest experts that I trained to make sure they have more, more, more lipstick. Oh good, so we're on the same wave length on that one. Exactly! Exactly. (Laughter) That's brilliant. It's never enough. Oh, that is brilliant. So why do you think people are afraid to listen to the intuitive hints or the little voice in the back of their mind that tells them what to do, or they say, "No, I'm not doing that." Because I'll tell you little secret. This is how I ended up in San Felipe, in Baja, is because that's what I was told to do. Every time I do what I'm told to do I say, "I don't know why I want to live down there. My whole community is in San Diego and northern California." And here I am in San Felipe. But everything has turned out beautifully, simply because I listened and took that step. A very big one, I might add. Yes. It is a very big one and there are times that those of us including, you know, including myself and I'm sure you've been here, where the voices are so loud that we're just too scared to take that step. And it is about trust. It really is about trust. You know when I wrote my last book, The Enchanted boardroom, there's a segment in there about angels and business. And I knew it had to go into the book. I knew intuitively it had to go into the book. I was feeling it and knowing it. But the fear was so intense for me. I was on my knees in my daughter's home in San Diego actually, crying my eyes out because I was so scared. I'm a business woman. I'm a practical person. I'm gonna have tomatoes thrown at me. (Laughter) And I have a fun story about the tomatoes. And this is what I was thinking. I'm going to be writing this and people are going to think I'm a lunatic. But I've been working with the angels, oh my gosh, for decades. My angels have really been very very clear for me. It was just the fear of being judged. It was the fear of not being taken seriously. It's the fear of hearing people's voices in my ear say, "Oh this is just such a bunch of bunk. None of this is true and I've heard this and again it's about, you know we as women, we work hard for our credibility. And it's a matter of fighting for our credibility. Darn it. I am a practical woman. I am grounded with my two feet on the ground, just like you are Shirlene, just like you. And when I don't listen to my intuition it comes back on me. I want to talk about that when we come back. Would you mind? And I want to hear about the tomatoes too. (Laughter) Okay. we'll be right back with you. Give us just a minute and then we're going to find out about Terry and her tomatoes. Hi, this is your coach Shirlene Reeves, and I'm kind of wondering, are you tired of being your wheels and networking groups? I mean I know you love them. But how much money are you making for the money that you're spending? You want to boost your sales and get out of your own backyard? Perhaps you'd like to generate a larger income and create a massive impact in the world. If you're concerned about market competition, meeting sales quotas, or overcoming the anxiety of building a business that generates an income. Then the knowledge and information in my new book, Selling Through your heart, will help you take your business to the next level so you can all that you desire. In the pages in Selling Through Your Heart, I give you my tips and strategies and sales ideas utilized for twenty eight years. Every one of them has been tried and tested. I give you my million dollar secret for how I built my nationwide company, with twenty three thousand people working under me. Wouldn't you love to know those secrets? Well you can get them all in my new book book, Selling Through Your Heart. This book is full of real life insights, inspirational stories, and easily applied advice. Go to SellingThroughYourHeart.com and order your book today. (Laughter) Okay, here we are. Back again. I promised you you're gonna to hear the tomato story, so Terry let's hear it. Oh, the tomato story. Well the book was published, The Enchanted Boardroom, Evolve Into An Unstoppable Intuitive Leader. I had my book signing here in my, where I live in Newport, Rhode Island. It was that the Middletown Barnes And Noble. And set her all up, and everything was wonderful, and I did not look through the camera lens at the videographer who attended. And when I got all the material back I burst out laughing, because I was standing giving my presentation with my flip chart to my right and up over my left was a big sign that said rotten tomatoes. (Laughter) Oh my gosh. Was that in all the video? It was in the whole video. (Laughter) That's actually a good thing. You know, because the book.You know, the Rotten Tomato Awards is actually very very good thing. But I couldn't believe it when I saw that on the video and I went aha aha. There we go. The angels got back at me. (Laughter) Well, you know what I find Terry is, I'll get this little nagging thing in the back of my mind and if I ignore it or I just say, "I'm not doing that." Then, it gets louder. And then it'll go away for awhile and then it comes back very loud. Then I have to say, "Okay, okay, okay I get it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it." And then it just kind of goes away. It's like they wait to see if I get it done.(Laughter) I have a story around that, very quickly. This was thirty one years ago this happened. We were living in Alexandria, Virginia, We were about to move to Mayport, Florida. We're a military family and my daughter was ten months old. My husband was finishing up school down in Florida. And we were leaving a friend at the Chinese restaurant and I put my daughter in the car. And this was thirty one years ago where the car seat, I had to put it in the front seat because it was a sports car. I had no other place to put it. I put my daughter's car seat in the front seat and she was in nice and tight and everything was fine. And then I didn't put my seatbelt on. And I'm pulling the car out and I hear the words, "Put your seatbelt on." Yah, yah, yah, yah. And I'm pulling out and this is in Alexandria, Virginia and if you think it's busy now. It was really really busy thirty one years ago. It's crazy now. You can only imagine what it was like thirty one years ago when I'm saying it was super super busy. And I pulled out into the traffic and I heard, "Put your seatbelt on." And I'm like yah yah yah."PUT ON YOUR SEATBELT!" And I put my seatbelt on and I'm like, "Okay, okay, got it." And I put my seatbelt on and not three minutes later I was at a light and the light turned green and I went forward. Next thing I know I'm in the middle of the intersection. It was a six lane intersection. I had been hit by a drunk driver. So that's the thing about trust isn't it Terry? It sure is about trust. That's when I realized how loud the words were. I think it was probably the first time. My angels always talk to me especially when I was a law enforcement and, you know. I always followed my intuition. But it was the first time I heard words like that, that were so loud and intense. The car didn't have airbags. So if I did it, I mean that was thirty one years ago. If I did not have my seatbelt on. My banged up face would have been a lot worse. But not having bags probably saved my daughter's life even though she had contusions from the straps. She was fine but still, it's like, oh goodness. Our intuition is very very strong if we listen to it and it is a muscle. I will say this. Intuition is a muscle that needs to be practiced. For me it started with the audio. I mean I was always clairsentient, but then the audio piece came in. My very first book in nineteen ninety eight on telephone skills was called 1-800 Courtesy, Connecting With The Winning Telephone Image. That book literally was downloaded with the angels. I was studying to be a reiki master at the time. It was nineteen ninety six. The book contract landed in my lap in nineteen ninety seven and I was studying to be a reiki master with twelve other professional women. I was sent telling them how frustrated and scared I was to write this first book. One of them said, "Why don't you just ask for writing angel, a writing guide." And I went ah, da. And on the way home I asked for a writing guide and Audra showed up. I would meet with her every morning at two, three o'clock in the morning. Put my hands on the keyboard, bada-bing bada-boom out came this book. It's the same way, the way mine came out too. Exactly the same way and they wouldn't let me sleep. (Laughter) I was like, "Oh my god I'm getting woken up at two, three o'clock in the morning. Really." I thought it was interesting what you brought up about your first book and I'd love to know, how does the intuitive blend in with having a positive conversation? Well when you're interacting with someone, like you and I are. The intuitive is about what I call third level listening. It's about when you sit down and you have the conversation does the phone ring at a specific point in time. Does the computer go off at a specific point in time. What is happening? Often times I'll look out and I'll see a specific kind of bird, which has a specific meaning, and I take that and integrated into the conversation. Or I'll be walking on my phone. I'm not walking on phone. (Laughter) Having a conversation with my headset in. I'm walking around the block and I'll see something and it triggers intuitively the next question. So it puts me into a position as a quote where I can ask open ended questions and be guided by what is going on around me by the words that I hear and how I feel. Somebody may say something and all of a sudden my gut is like, oh no no no no no no. So I will put out a question, in an open ended format, that I get some feedback on from the person I'm interacting with. I can tell whether I'm supposed to continue along in that vein based on how my body feels. Is that gut thing, is still there, has it lessened, is it getting better? sometimes I get a pain somewhere. Pain in my shoulder and what I find is because I tend to be empathic I'll often pick up the pain in the person I'm interacting with and they could be three thousand miles away. So that's all part of being intuitive is in using your body and using what is outside of you. And that's third level listening so you're integrating both, your inner world with your outer world. Wow, Terry you are an absolutely amazing woman. I love chatting with you and I'd love to have you back on the show. Isn't it amazing how fast this goes? (Laughter) It sure does. Do you have any parting thoughts that you would like to share with our listeners? Always listen to your heart. Always listen to your heart. If your heart keeps saying to do something, take the leap, trust it, do it. Awesome. That's absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for being with me today Terry. I just absolutely love being in your company. And likewise. We have a lot of fun, every time we're together. Yes we do. So thank you everybody for joining us today. I really really appreciate it and Terry I want you to tell them how they can reach out to you or do you have a little gift for them? I do. They can reach me at www.IntuitiveLeadership.com and they can download a tool that I use to help folks reduce their stress levels. They can go to QuickShiftZone.com. That sounds like a whole different show. It is. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, that's www.IntuitiveLeadership.com and there you can connect with Terry Wildemann and she will help you get on track intuitively as a leader. See you next week. Bye Bye. Have a wonderful week. (Clap) That's it. That was fun. Thank you for joining us on Ascended Masters At Work radio. We hope you gained insights that will change the way you do business, generate a consistent income, and provide a new enlightened path toward financial freedom and designing the lifestyle of your dreams. And if you simply can't wait to purchase Shirlene's book Selling Through Your Heart, Empowering You To Build Relationships For Financial Freedom at SellingThroughYourHeart.com. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

John Watson and his team of 50 PCB designers at Legrand are beta partners in using Altium Nexus, the new Altium solution that takes Altium Designer and pumps it up with a healthy dose of project management capabilities. Find out why John is more excited about Altium Nexus than Altium Designer 18, and how he and his team have combat rogue libraries to tighten process and improve quality.   Show Highlights: Defining Your Design Process: What?, How?, Why? 5 mil boards was once amazing but now… old news Getting Parts You Can Trust Project Management in Altium Nexus - Streamlining and auditing processes Increasing the reliability of the design. LeGrand closes the loop - did we accomplish the why and what? AltiumLive is where you rub shoulders with leaders in the industry; 2 days of great learning. Passing the Torch - There is a concern that there are more jobs than there are designers.   Links and Resources: Fundamentals of RF/Microwave PCBs Signal Integrity By Example PCB Design: Prototyping and the PCB Design Flow (National Instruments White Paper) IPC Saturn PCB Design Tool Favourite White Papers Top 10 DFM Problems That Affect Every Design Adopting Signal Integrity In Your High Speed Design Process   Best PCB Design Books: Printed Circuit Handbook by Coombs & Holden High Speed Digital Designs: A Handbook of Black Magic by Howard Johnson and Martin Graham   Find all Episodes at: https://resources.altium.com/altium-podcast   Hi everyone this is Judy Warner with the OnTrack Podcast. Thanks for joining us again. Today we are here at the La Jolla headquarters of Altium and I have with me, John Watson of Legrand and we're going to have a great talk today about, just design in general, and then some of his vast experience. Before we get going though, I'd like to invite you to connect with me on LinkedIn, @AltiumJudy on Twitter and Altium is also on Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter. So if you are listening on the podcast be also aware that we record simultaneously on video. So, if you want to see our beautiful faces you can always tune into Altium's YouTube channel and click under videos, and you'll find that we are recording here in-office, which is a rare treat because we do this a lot on Skype. So John, welcome to the office. Thank you, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure being here. Yeah thanks for joining. So, why don't you start by sharing with our listeners and watchers about what you do at Legrand, and because you really have kind of a wide... you do a lot! I don't know how you, if you have any time at home ever? No, no I don't. No I'm the senior PCB engineer for Legrand, and we are a conglomerate of several divisions of what's called the building control systems and these divisions could basically go around the world; and in each one of these divisions we have designers, PCB designers and librarians and people who work on schematics and everything else. So I'm responsible for that, I'm the Administrator also, responsible for kind of mentoring them and training them, answering any other questions that they may have that come up. So we also then make sure that we constantly have the PCB designs that we're working on moving, flowing through there, so that's basically what I do. Well, what I thought we'd talk about today, based on our recent conversation is, you kind of drill down to sort of the basics of designs - now tell us about how many designers you have overall at Legrand? We have about 50 right now, 50 designers and a lot of those are, some of those are in Asia and the rest are in America here. Okay so you started talking yesterday or... yeah it was just yesterday, we spoke right? Yes. You kind of talked about what I will call the why, what, how and when. So, I thought that was an interesting way to sort of distill down the design process, but can you start talking us through that. Kind of start with the why and the what? Yeah, I think as designers we'd love to jump into the how, we'd love to: give me the schematic and let me dive into the PCB, let me start laying copper down. Yeah, but we we never get back to taking a step and really what has brought this on has been your new Nexus system with your design processes and your design flow charts that you guys have created. It's really caused us as a company, to take a step back and and ask, first off, ask the question: what are we doing? It may sound simplistic but the what is a direction pointer, it's an objective, it's the goal that you put up there and a lot of times it's kind of skimmed over... In designing, because we want to get to the how, we want to get to - we want to get to the interactive routing part of this you know. And all the exciting tools that we can use and all this and that, but we never take a step back and determine are we pointed in the right direction? Are we accomplishing what we want to start with? So, and I would actually take what we do is, we actually take it a step further back and we ask why are we doing this? The why is the foundation, the why is the motivation of why we're doing this. Because what we have seen - what I've seen in PCB design - now I've been in this for about 20 years and what I've seen is that we actually, have different parameters - people look at PCB design differently. In the company, somebody for example the PCB designer, looks at a design and he's looking at: okay, here's my schematic, here's my PCB, here's my trace routing and everything else, you know. The part procurement people; they're concerned about okay, is this part even available? How do we buy this part? How do we buy this component? How do we do this ? Then you have upper-management who looks and says how quickly can we get this thing to market. That's their concern, they're not concerned about the routing. The, designer gets into the details and he's all, yeah look at that I'm doing the... doing differential pairs! Yeah whatever, when do I get it back? [laughter] Exactly, the upper management people, they're actually sitting there going, oh we really don't care. Does it work? When can we get this to market? I've had been asked that question several times by Vice Presidents of companies and things like that, and you say in interviews, they go: we have such a terrible lead time in our designs from concept to market and by the time we get this whole thing through the process we're gone... the market is gone. So, one of their major concerns is, how do we speed this whole process up? And one of the things that I've always pushed on, is the best way to do that, and accomplish it is, first off, know why you're doing something. What are you doing that gets you pointed in the right direction and how are you gonna do it? And that then brings in the how. And and once you get that established, then you can start talking about how we're gonna do this. And what tools we're going to use and those things are not major in any way just sit down, in one sentence, what do you do? Right. Because I think, what struck me when you said that it's like well, yeah of course but sometimes we breeze over that because we're all making assumptions but I think, what you're saying is, five different people could be making five different assumptions and they're assuming they're all on the same page. Right, exactly. So unless you spell that out up front... You're right. -And the direction is clear, it can get messy real quick. Right, and as I said, what has really brought this on has been the Nexus system. So, I should mention to our listeners and watchers that, John and Legrand were part of our Beta group for Nexus, so they have been really instrumental in working with us giving us great feedback and also really showing us, instructing us, as much as we're instructing you I think. Oh yeah. It's been a real strong partnership, so he's way down the road from most people that are just starting to onboard Nexus now. So we're very excited - I'm actually more excited about Nexus than I am Altium 18, and Altium 18 I tell you, you guys knocked it out of the park. I'm actually more excited about Nexus because this, this is beyond PCB design, you guys have taken this now beyond the PCB. You've taken it into the Project Management area. You've taken this whole design process, and I have project managers now, that have seen the Nexus system and they go: we can use that, we can use that process. The project managers now can look at the process, see whatever area that they're concerned with, they can now look at that process and understand where it's at. So you guys have now taken the whole PCB design process and kind of put it on it's head and you, you've caused me at least, to rethink this whole process. Which is really exciting to hear from somebody who's been laying out boards and even instructing other people how to lay out boards for 20 years. Yeah. So that's exciting to hear. It's very exciting, but I think this would work in any situation to  understand what you're doing and how you're going to do it and having a clear plan is going to be vital. Especially with the environment we live in today, I mean especially with the whole electronic industry and where it's headed. Yeah well, it's gotten so complex that it's hard to get your head around it sometimes. Oh it is always... I mean,  and any one part of that, the design process is incredibly complex, the manufacturing, sourcing parts is incredibly complex and shifting all the time, and nothing's static. Right so it's like you're shooting at a target that's moving all the time, and you're trying to get you know... what do you call that - a bull's-eye. Right, exactly I remember, several years ago, about four or five years ago, when I was sitting at PCB West and people were amazed about how they were now going to be able to do five mill traces on boards! You know, and it was supposed to...people were gasping, oh that's amazing you know? And now that's old technology. Think about that. It's just stunning. It is, it’s absolutely stunning, but it tells you, it tells you not where we've been, but where we're heading. What's the industry going to look like in five more years? What's the industry going to look like in ten years, and it's exciting, it's an exciting time to be a part of this. I agree it is an exciting time and I think that those of us in the electronics industry that’s part of what motivates us is, is the excitement right? Yes exactly. And being on that forefront like seeing what is next right, and what can we do. Yesterday you talked to us about the Item Manager, would you touch on that slightly and how that sort of impacted your own design process? Yes, one of the important parts for us was when I first started at Legrand, we had various designers who were using various libraries but the bigger the organization the worst that can be. The harder it is right, it becomes much, much more difficult the bigger a company becomes. But it also brings in a lot of risk with the PCB design, when what I would call 'rogue libraries' are used and you know, when someone creates their own library or things like that - and we had a lot of libraries... Like how many, how many designers how many libraries we talking about? We had about, at that time, we had probably thirty designers and we probably had over 900 libraries that were total and our library set and Item Manager is a great tool that you guys have placed into Altium, that allows me to look at a design, and look at the sourcing for those parts for those individual components and what it does, is it identifies whether a part is what you guys call managed or unmanaged. So a managed part would be an example of a part that is under the vault system, or under a specific library. We specifically use the vault system. And what it does is, it tells me where the part came from, whether it's managed or unmanaged first off, and where it came from. And then, if that part is managed, it then tells me what the life cycle is. It tells me if there's been updates done on the part, or whether there's new a new part for that in the library so it will say that the part is out of date or needs to be updated. Okay. Okay so, and then you simply go through a small process to update those components in that design. But we use it a lot too when we are bringing in a new design and we're comparing it and we're starting with the design review process, we want to know where those parts came from. So that's our first question, is we say, ok where are these parts from? So it tells us managed and unmanaged parts. And then we want to know, if those parts are managed, are they up to date with our library? So then we use that a lot - the item manager is probably one of the biggest tools we use, because that tells us exactly where the design is at. So you're ensuring them that you have the most current revision of any given part, at any time so that's what you said kind of like the risk mitigation or increasing the reliability right of the design? Exactly. Before you actually make the board? You don't want to get to that point. Yeah I was saying yesterday about, we've all been in this industry any period of time. You've put all the work into a fabrication and you play your part down and you get everything nice and shiny and everything else and and then you create your Gerber set and you send it out to a fab house and the fab house builds the boards you know. Then they go over to the assembly house, and you're sitting there and your phone starts ringing like, I'm sorry but the part that you gave us doesn't fit on your board okay, and you have to make that, what I call the long walk to the manager's office, where he then has to toe it you know, you just have to tell him: excuse me but we just spent so much money on this project we spent three months on this, and we have... it's the boards are useless we can't build the boards and we've all been there I mean... It happens to everyone and that speaks not to the ineptitude of the designer but the complexity of the process and the craziness of managing component libraries and keeping that up to date because the data is fluid and rolling all the time, and parts are coming in and out of the supply chain and it's a very difficult thing to track. It's a very difficult thing to track, but what we try to do is where there are steps that can be taken to definitely lower the risk of that situation. So you told a story yesterday which made me laugh but also, made me gasp at the same time. So why don't you - you know what I'm talking about right, about the weekend - so why don't you share that story, and sort of what got you to that place of, coming from a place when you had all those designers and hundreds of libraries, and discovering that when you did a root cause analysis that most of the problems were either from footprint problems or component problems and then you did what about it? Well what we did was you know this, I'm the sort of person as you know, it's a little thing called baptism of fire I guess we'll call it, but we had so many libraries in our system and people were using their own libraries and different tools that they had developed. I mean, they were setting up their own things so we had about over 1,200 libraries at that time, and when we ran things through the Item Manager, we would see 'Joe's library.' Well, Joe we need to have a chat. Yeah Joe, that's not going to work anymore. I mean, we need to because we had to centralize, that was the biggest problem, we had people that had rogue libraries and they were causing problems, failures, they were costing the company money. Right, which back to your point is when the manager’s agenda is to say; if we miss our window time-to-market heads will roll okay, so you drilled down and said: okay what's causing that? Yes. And you're like... rogue libraries? Rogue libraries, and what we did was after work on a Friday evening after everyone had left I basically went in and deleted all the libraries, so that was an interesting Monday morning. I would've liked to be a fly on the wall that Monday morning did you show up for work on Monday? Yes I did, because I was going to be there because basically it had to be done. The integrity of a PCB design which means that we try to put out the highest quality board that we can put out the very first time - we don't have time to do four, five, six spins of this the very first time, how do we have a high integrity board? Well number one is our libraries - I want all designers pulling a single part from a single library, that has a single footprint, a single sourcing and everything was in line and everything was correct, and that was how we began to basically rebuild our libraries. Right, and that is, at that time is that when you were onboarding Vault, or you had vault but just all these rogue libraries? All the rogue libraries yeah. So you just we shut them off and said, there's one place you can get components. Right exactly, and that was our whole purpose for getting the vault system was a single library source, that was it. Tell us a little bit, we had talked several months ago, and I was really impressed with your whole vetting system really, that you've built internally of making sure. How do you make sure that the parts that you're putting in the vault are known, good parts and that they're verified and that they're up to date? Right, well what we do is we, first off in the part itself, we follow IPC standard for our part creation we use the IPC 7351 and the IPC standards are our guideline for creating parts, and what we have now done is, because of Altium's sourcing capabilities now, we're able now to see sourcing. One of the greatest features that I have now looked at with Altium 18, has been your active BOM feature. The ability to take a BOM and throw it out there to all the vendors and suppliers and get feedback from them to determine what is the quality, what is the probability of this part, and we've actually taken several of our boards that are in production right now, through this active BOM process and what we got back was, we would get red flags on components. We would get notices like this part is end of life. And on active parts that you're building? That we're building. Oh boy. So we would get, you know, red flags stating ok, this part is the end of life, this part is not recommended for new designs, this part is obsolete and it was a situation where that was the information we needed really. That gives us the red flags, not at the end of the project, not after the fabrication's there, not after the assemblies' done or started and after it's gone to the customer especially, it tells us at the beginning, the very first day when our schematic is complete we run it through the active BOM feature and we get the red flags, because a lot of times, what designers do is, they will either copy a design from a previous design or they will simply lay down a part. All right, that's their job, that's the double E's responsibility. What has happened now, is we have been given the ability and the tools to make sure that we are using good parts. So if I run a board now, through the active active BOM feature and it gives me a red flag, saying this is not the best part, this is not recommended for new designs, then I can go back to the EE now; and I can say, you know what we should consider not using this. Preemptively and proactively, before you're to the expensive part... Exactly yes, and so that now, we're able to constantly keep our sourcing information up to date so that we know exactly who we're buying the part from. And then also whether that part is deprecating in the lifecycle. So how many parts are is Legrand managing inside of your vault in your library now? Right now we have about 5,000 6,000 parts. And how do you... so using the active BOM is one; but didn't you tell me that you have a system of verification before things go in or out, come out your vault? Yeah. Just an internal process? It's an internal process that when anybody creates a new part it's given a life cycle of 'new' so that tells us it's a new part and what we then do, is we very go through and verify it, a verification process of that part. We'll pull up the data sheet, we'll verify the footprint, we'll verify the 3D model, the schematic symbol of course, and everything else and before then we can change the lifecycle to 'released', to where it's now available. So we make sure that, this is one of the features, also on Item Manager, it will tell you if the component lifecycle is new or if it's in a release state. So we can actually see: oh that part hasn't been verified yet, so we can then go in and make sure that everything's perfectly okay with it. How nice, by the way, to have that clean of a library. like I think that's really rare, I don't think that's something everybody could boast about. I don't know, maybe I don't know. Oh I wouldn't say it's too clean, it's a effort it's a constant... Well yeah I'm sure it's something you have to continually manage? Yeah you constantly have to manage it, you constantly have to keep a look at and watch after it, a lot of times we have components that pop up there and they just don't match - nothing matches on the datasheet or anything and they easily get deleted. So we try to keep in control of that. So, you'd mentioned to me about, that in your multiple locations, you have three different PLM systems too? Yeah. How does that come into play? Well we have different divisions, and each one of those; some of those have different PLM systems, and they also have different numbering systems for the part. So for example, you can have like a 1K resistor, 805 resistor, that you have in your library. Well for us there's - for one division - it's one part number, for another division it's another part number, and for another division it could be another part number. So what we did was, we actually set up parameters inside of that part. We set up, what's called a CPN, a Company Part Number, so we then set up a list of company part numbers that we would use for that single item, so we could put in there then, all the different part numbers. So whenever anyone lays that part down, they're also laying down all the information for that part. So all the information, for whatever division is going to use it, so it makes it very handy to then integrate the whole process. So now that you've got this centralized and cleaned up and nobody wants to kill you anymore for deleting their parts - tell us how the overall, now kind of backing the camera up here, what's the overall effect that it's had actually on your quality your time to market, you know, the role of sanitization. What has that done for you guys really, as a company? It's really helped to streamline the whole process because once we're starting with good information from the library, then we can talk now; what we're talking about is how are we going to streamline - how we're going to standardize our process, how we - we want to make sure that all the designers are first off, they're starting off from the same sheet, they're starting off at the same location, so they're all working from the same library. They're working from the same templates now, and they're working from the same guidelines, procedures, things like that. So what has helped is it's streamlined. Basically taking a design through different divisions and it can be handed off from division to division and it can just be carried, and continue to be worked on. Without the disconnect. Without a disconnect without - except for a couple of people - I'll tell you... [laughter] There's always those couple people. Yeah there's always a couple people. I have to tell you that there's the one person in particular he, what he does is, the convention is, in Altium, is that the component layer is red, and the solder side is blue, well what he does is he'll go and he'll swap those. Just to mess with your head. [laughter] Just to mess with my head right. So but it's - other than that, once it's done, is it's called us to streamline the process, so now with the Nexus system coming in, we are going to be bringing that online, with the Nexus system coming online, we are now looking deeper at our processes, looking further about our process, and I'm kind of looking at it in the way of where, if you have a set process and you have a set group of people, a team that is responsible for certain tasks, then we can actually have milestone setups in our process where we simply say, at this gate keeping item, or this moment of our process, we want to do for example, a design review- Oh like an audit... -of an audit, of where the design is at and then also, we can assign people specific tasks in that process. So basically, we can go from there into then checklist... we say, ok we give a checklist to an individual that says check one, two, three, and four is it correct? So what we're looking now at, is streamlining our entire design review process, looking at decreasing our time to market, decreasing the time that that board is in design, and the Nexus system is going to definitely be a major part of that whole process. Because with that then, we're able to go into web reviews, which we're very excited about doing. Being able to do web reviews and have people actually go onto a website to look at this, they don't need to have Altium installed and go through the licensing and all this and that, they just get the email and the link, and they go in, review documents. So that's really exciting for us, but we're actually seeing a quicker time to market we're seeing better, improved boards, and it's really helped us also to do a self-audit which means that when we do a fabrication of a board for example, and we then go into assembly, what we then do is, we do a DFM we do a design for manufacturing review. We then look at the board and say, okay now what was the design flaws here? What was then - we also do a build review - from an assembly house they come back with a report that says, oh we had this, and this, and this issue. Okay so now, what we're able to do is that drives the design from there, then we look back at our libraries, whether we need to improve our footprints, or do we need to improve in some way, our process. Or we look at the specific layout, or we look at component problems and such like a build review, then we can look at our design review checklist. So it's like, it sounds like an ongoing real-time, optimization of your entire process. Yeah. Whenever you begin a process and you go out and you do that process, we're closing the circle. We bring it back to the beginning: say, did we accomplish what we started out to do right? We talk about how we, talked about it at the beginning, 'why' and 'how' or we talked about 'why' and 'what'. Well at the very back end it gets looped back there did we accomplish, why, what we were doing? Because I'll tell you, a lot of times, we can start a project and we can - and we just kind of go down the primrose path of design and we never get to what we were accomplishing. Right that can't happen. And and we never get to it, we never accomplish it, and a lot of times those sort of designs and those sort of PCB just kind of die by the wayside. That was fun, that was a nice fun project. Now let's go do another one! Let's do another yeah. But I always said, I've always told the designers that I work with, I said: look you do not get paid for designing, you don't get paid for designing. This company is in business for one thing, and it's not to pay you to be a designer. It's a company, we’re in the manufacturing field now, not maybe in a service area, but in manufacturing. You're here designing because you're building something that ultimately needs to be put on a shelf somewhere and someone needs to buy. We're here to sell stuff and a lot of times we lose sight of that - we lose sight of the fact that, oh well this is a nice fun project, but do we ever accomplish what we started out to do? So what we try to do is, we're definitely trying to constantly improve our process, and constantly improving our designs and things like that, and I think that's done through our review process and looking at the very forefront of what what are we accomplishing? Did we do it? How well did we do it you know? And where did we maybe fall down and how can we improve that. Here at Altium internally, we call that a post mortem. We've set up a process we said, well we're gonna go through it and then when it's done, we come back and we do what's known, sort of in the marketplace, as a post mortem and go, well how did that go? Did we do what we set out to do at the beginning you know, so it's very much the same of what you're talking about. Yes. Because if you don't come back and do that check, you could be left to center by the time you get to the end but you're like, oh that looks good, it works yeah, and you miss the target, but it's together, and it's functional. But you missed the mark right. So it's not a board of high quality, you got 98%, you missed that 2%. I'm actually concerned about the 2%, how can we improve the process, how can we make this quicker, how can we better this? Right well it's...I'm just in awe of the work you do actually John and I never get tired of hearing you talk about it because it's it's refreshing, and you've got a big team and it's a complex process but the discipline that you've brought to it is just, it's really impressive. So now I'd like to ask you about - is there anything else - first of all, that I missed that I asked you about.. I don't think so. Okay, so now I want to just kind of put a microphone in front of your mouth and do a self-serving moment here, it's not really self-serving. But last October you were one of our speakers for Altium Live. And you had a lot of really positive things to say about that. I would like your honest input, because hopefully you'll be back again to speak at AltiumLive, I'd like you to encourage other designers, that maybe didn't have the chance to go. Tell them reasons why you found it valuable and so on and so forth. So if you would? I - it was of course - it was the first one so, and it was phenomenal and I felt, when you first told me, I first heard of it I thought about AltiumLive, okay this is going to be a three-day or a two- day commercial regarding Altium 18 and you're going to sit there and just see the demos and you guys are just gonna pat each other on the back as designers, and everyone's gonna you know - but it didn't turn out to be that way, what happened was this was far more than just about Altium 18. This was about the design process, this was about designers, this was an opportunity for designers to rub shoulders with some phenomenal people and some of the leaders in the industry and this was just two days of, just great learning, to hear from experts, to hear from the people that are the leaders that's the only way I can really describe it. They really are, I mean, the keynotes we had were thought leaders. They were, they were phenomenal, just absolutely! Mr. Holden... Yeah Happy Holden. -was just phenomenal I've been reading one of his, my favorite books, it sits on my desk right now it's The Printed Circuit Handbook. Isn't that a great book? This thick. Is that thick yeah. [gestures] But Happy doesn't ever sign up for anything that is short. That's right. Brevity is not his skill in life. But it was a phenomenal time and I'm really looking forward to October I mean, to have it again, and I understand we're gonna add the one day? We are gonna add the day on the front end because and we're doing that, again, we really are trying to make it all about people like you, and and not make it an Altium commercial because I think EDA tool companies in general have been absolutely guilty of putting on, what they call user conferences, but it's like, we're going to lock you in a room, and beat you over the head with our products - see if you'll buy some more stuff from us right. So we try to really focus on what do you guys want; what's the value to you, and again this is a complex world we swim in so let's just bring all the experts in, bring on this. And of course we did launch Altium 18 and we talked about Nexus there, but only you know, 45 minutes on day one; 45 minutes on day two - that's all, the rest of the time it was not us at all - it was about celebrating designers and the and the craft of design but when we did the exit surveys we asked. What did you like, what you didn't like? And most of the feedback was largely good. But the one piece of feedback that people gave us is; gee I wish there was just a little bit more that was actually tool training, getting into some of the more advanced features that maybe during the workaday world, they don't have time to just sit down and learn and drill deep into some of the advanced features. So we've added a day on the front end that we're calling Altium University, and then we're gonna just do tracks all day, on the first day. And it's optional, you can go or not go, you know. If you're an expert and you don't need initial training, you don't have to go. But at least it's there and we've kept it out, so that we can kind of stay, design - somewhat design agnostic - on those other two days and really give you good depth and training and bringing in the experts, wait til you see, so far for AltiumLive - this is like breaking news right here, really you're the first to know... Oh my goodness. Okay, since you've been so generous with your time... so three keynote speakers that we have signed up right now is Eric Bogatin... Oh right! I bet you've read a few of his books, Rick Hartley, and then a young buck by the name of Jeremy Blum, who has worked at Google, went to Cornell; sharp Electrical Engineer and he's at a start-up now called Shaper and so he is like 'Forbes 30 under-30 Technologist', and he's like the startup whiz-bang kid. So that'll appeal, I think, to the younger designers and I haven't picked the fourth yet, but stay tuned - I'll keep one secret to myself. Those are three for San Diego. Dan Beeker will be joining us in Munich and I haven't decided yet, we're still working on the other ones in Munich, but it should be another great lineup of keynotes and I will put out a call for presentation soon so, and I've already inked you in, so. Yes you have. You don't get a vote. I know, and you're probably gonna ink me into Munich also. Good, good whatever we have to do to suck you in. So thank you for the AltiumLive commercial. Right I would just add to that, I would just add to that, I would just say, that if you, if you're kind of sitting on the fence about going or not going. Go, you won't be sorry, you won't be sorry I can promise you that. It's definitely a great time; it's a learning experience, it's a time to rub shoulders, is a time to kind of get away from your job - kind of get away from all the hassles. For those of you who are going to be in the cold areas of the country, such as Montana in the middle of October, I would highly recommend you to come please, come to beautiful San Diego where it will be a chilly 72 degrees. On Coronado Island with water on both sides of the hotel. Exactly, so it's gonna be a great time, but above that, it's gonna be a great learning experience. It's going to be a great time to come learn and grow, I'm really a senior, not just in age, but also in this industry, and one of our concerns is, and one of the concerns that was brought up in PCB magazine, just last year; was how there's a mass exodus right now of PCB designers, and that there is a vacuum happening that there are now more jobs available than there are designers and that is not just a concern for me, it's also a challenge, a challenge to train and to teach the younger generation coming up. To teach them and train them about this whole thing. It's a phenomenal industry, it's a cutting-edge industry, but it's not something where somebody, you know, they grow up they're four or five years old; mommy when I grow up I want to be a PCB designer. I know, I always say we all got here by accident, you know, it's like some windy road that landed us here. I started off in my career as an Electronic Technician and I started in that route and finally got pulled into the PCB design area and I actually started off with Protel 98... You are dating yourself. Way back when, so and but it was phenomenal. It was it was a career that is now, is always changing and I love it, it's just... but I would highly encourage everyone to be there and to make sure that you come there to learn because that's the whole purpose of it. It's not going to be a three-day commercial for Altium, it is - this is about you - and what you need okay. Thank you I'll give you your $20 bill later [laughter]. Check is in the mail... Well you plugged that way more than I'd hoped for, so thank you for doing that. But I know you're a fan, and I appreciate it. The feedback you had was music to my ears because what we intended to deliver, you said we delivered so, yes that makes my heart sing and and being an - by the way - I won't give away this secret but I will put a little hook in you... Either your age or your weight... No neither one of those, no. Before AltiumLive, or at AltiumLive when - I first want to say thank you - that you are one of the people in the industry that are training up the next generation through the people you're training out of the ground so I really appreciate how you personally contribute. But either before or at AltiumLive you will hear something very exciting from Altium about things we're gonna be doing. Extremely proactively, help grow up the PCB design community and in a way where they can go out and use any tool they want but we have an intention to help grow that next and we hope people will use Altium, but we're not... Right, it's not required. That's good. -so stay tuned. I am really excited about that I mean, that's an exciting... It's coming and I feel really privileged to be in the place I am because, like you, I have been around a little while and luckily Altium is a generous EDA company and they are allowing me to step in and do some of these things. I thought your big announcement was AltiumLive, this year is going to be Altium 19. Oh shocker, spoiler alert! Altium 19! You heard it here first! [laughter] At least we're consistent. We're consistent yeah. I'm glad you guys got, many years ago, you got away from that 2010-like the 2010 stage I don't know how many are still here, but you did the summer and the winter release. It was like a fashion show was like so... Our summer line! Your summer line versus your winter like well then if we killed off teams of developers we decided to stop. Or they're like, why does it keep crashing? Maybe we should only do one release a year... Just saying... no. Well thank you again, this has been a blast always great having you... Thank you for having me. -thanks for teaching us and being such a great contributor to the industry. Well, we appreciate you, appreciate what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you again. This has been Judy Warner with the OnTrack podcast and my friend John Watson from Legrand. Please tune in again next time and until then remember to always stay on track.

Katrina Ruth: Ooh. That made a significant improvement, didn't it? Just that little forward tilt. She just needs a little bit of a forward tilt. Who's she? Not me, the tripod. The tripod is a girl, she's a lady. She's a lady who lunches. Somebody just invited me to lunch, I was like, "Ooh, lunch. How fancy." I feel like lunches for really fancy people, is that a true thing or am I making it up? I don't do lunch, who does lunch? Do people even eat lunch? Is that a thing? Who goes to lunch? What's that about? Who goes to lunch, I mean really. If you invite me to a lunch for your birthday, I'm going to be a little bit like, "Really, what's up with that? Dinner, I'll go to dinner." Live, we are live. I'll go to dinner, I will go for the espresso martinis ... I want to get my beach that's on both sides in. Dilemma. I don't care for that spiky spiky behind me. Do you reckon I should move it? Katrina Ruth: You think I could fix up my bloody set ... my fabulous set, before I get on it. You would think that, but if you thought it, you would be wrong. You go to lunch, who goes to lunch? My mind is being blown. You can't just go around going to lunch. I'm going to move this plant here. Oh man, my cushion situation just went out the window. All right. Hello. Just do a little bit of furniture shifting before we begin. I'm kicking it with my foot, I don't like that plant. Plant can fuck right off. With love. With love to wherever it came from. That is much better. Isn't it infinitely better? Do you feel like we need more brightness? Ha. What do you think? I'm just done with the throne right now, sorry, I'm just done with sitting in the throne. Sometimes the queen got to get off the motherfucking throne. Hello from Darwin. Why have I still in my whole life not been to Darwin? Okay that's it. Katrina Ruth: Who wants to do an amazing, amazing, kick ass entrepreneur retreat in Darwin? In a very fabulous high end location. Why are all my cushions falling off? As fast as I pick them up, they're falling off. What's happening? And why am I a little bit out of breath? Did something exciting happen to me? Not really. Something exciting is always about to happen, it's probably going to happen right now on this live stream. Okay yes, you guys are in. Oh my god I'm not even joking, I'm announcing it officially ... okay North Carolina, what are you going to offer me there? Is there good grits there, because I'll consider it. But they've got to be a lot of chicken, a lot of meat, a lot of protein. Darwin for sure we can get some really good meat. Right. Is there Vegemite on my face, because I was just eating quite a lot of it straight out of the jar, mushed with avocado and toast. So this is my studio, usually my throne is right there. I pushed it out of the way. Fuck you throne for now. Katrina Ruth: Okay, I'm announcing it officially, we're doing a very high end retreat in Darwin. I know for sure there's some fancy places in Darwin. Everyone send a love heart shout to Tina because she's just created that. Because she said, "Hi from Darwin," and I suddenly was like, "Oh my god, that's it. I've always wanted to go to Darwin and I've just never gotten around to it." And I have looked up those places and I know there's some really cool places you can go and do a retreat at, for sure, right? Tina's going to tell us what they are. We'll figure it out, we'll figure it out. I'm doing it, 10 women. How much will it be, how much will it be? Let's work it out right now. What am I talking about? Magic and power, we'll get to that in a moment. Let's do this retreat, this is the best way to do it or I'll just forget. So let's do this retreat, what month are we up to now? Katrina Ruth: We're going to do it in ... is it ... I was going to say will it be too hot in August, but then I remembered we're in Australia not America. August must be a pretty good month for Darwin, because it's not going to be crazy fucking hot, right? But it will still be hot enough. Cannes? I don't know about Cannes. I've been there already, sorry. So I think we should do it end of August, let's do it late August. Let's figure this out right now. I didn't even know I was going to launch a retreat, this is fucking amazing. I've never just created an offer on a live stream and then launched it. Who would not want to come to an incredible retreat in Darwin and we can do many nature-y things. How long should it go for? Vote. Four days? Four nights and three days? How long? We're going to do it, that's July right? We're going through the diary. And I'll do the same retreat in America, don't worry. So put your votes in for which city it should be in. Katrina Ruth: We're going to do it at the end of August, from Thursday August 30th, Mim can you write this down so that I don't forget about my own retreat? Yeah, four days. We're going to arrive on Thursday 30th of August, 31st, 1st is two, and we'll go through to the Monday. Now how much will it be? I don't know, should I include accomodation or not? I can really start putting up prices when I don't know if I'm putting out accommodations. I've been to Austin Texas many times. It's amazing, amazing. I love Texas. I do like Texas a lot. I have multiple reasons for liking Texas. But I love Austin. All right, well I've been to Dallas a lot, a lot, that's for sure. And I do like it there too a lot. A lot, a lot. Okay you guys are signing me up for a Texas retreat as well, are you? All right, well maybe. We'll see. I got to admit that my reasons for going to Texas are shortly about to be diminished. So what else was I saying? Katrina Ruth: I'm trying to decide should I give you a price right now for the retreat, but the only thing is I don't know how much, if I'm going to include accommodations or not. I've got to include accommodation. I think it's going to have to be a fabulous Airbnb where we can all stay. Do you think there is a fabulous Airbnb where we can all stay there? I don't even know what we're going to do on this retreat, but we will do everything. It's going to be a soul shifting, money making retreat. Soul shifts and money making. Message me now ... not now, pay attention here right now, message me on my personal Facebook if you want to come to the Darwin retreat. It's going to be full luxury and full stripping you back to the core. It'll be a hustle house, mixed with sausage, chips, and cellular ... cellular shifts and money making mixed with lots of martini and fun time, mixed with definitely full on adventure shit. Which I don't know what it's going to be yet, but you can't go around [inaudible 00:07:23] Darwin without doing crazy adventures and nature stuff. Katrina Ruth: Of course there's going to be a wine cellar ... yeah, we're going to do an Airbnb, we're not doing a hotel-y place. We'll get a chef, you know we'll get people to do things for us, and we will do a lot of high end lux stuff. We will rip your soul out, it will be high end with soul ripping. What else would you desire or want? Nothing. And we're definitely going to be getting into some full on nature shit of some kind. I'm really excited. It'll probably be 10 places max. I don't know how many people you can get into an Airbnb but I feel like 10's a good number anyway for me energetically. We're going to go to the water field, Tina's announcing it. Waterfalls. Message me about it and I'll sort it out over the next several days. How exciting. I'm so excited. I've been wanting to do some kind of like smack down boot camp slash hustle house, slash soc definitely running with the soc ... ooh, ooh, ohh, how have I never seen that hashtag before? Katrina Ruth: Lisa says she loves a good soul fuck. Fuck me. Fuck my soul please. Oh my god. Can I just quickly message that to somebody before we continue? Oh wait. I'll save it for later. Please fuck my soul, wait you already did. Okay so anyway, a little distracted, because I've known for ages that I so want to do a retreat and I couldn't ... oh my goodness this speaks to everything we're here to talk about. You know how fucking powerful and magical you are. That is a long ass name. Joelyn Rose McKayla Jane Longbow. Is that one person or have you got multiple profiles going on there? What's happening? Yes, well I'm going to take it and PM it to someone privately Lisa. Anyway, so anyway, I'm now thinking about that. I've really wanted to do a retreat for ages, a wine coach? I don't need a fucking wine coach. What do you mean a wine coach? I'm totally fine without a wine coach for choosing wine. Do you mean a couch? I don't understand what a wine couch is either though. And I just didn't have the idea coming forth from me. One name. Amazing. Katrina Ruth: Now I feel like I have name scarcity, my name's too short. I still have to get around to finalising what my next name is going to be. My new name. No that's right, I remember what it is. I'm changing my surname to Show. I'm legitimately, legally going to do this. And everybody can get fucked if they think it's kind of stupid. But I'm going to change my name to The Katrina Ruth Show. I don't know if you're allowed to legally change your name to The in Australia, but we'll see. But you can ... but I can definitely change my last name to Show. So my actually name will be Katrina Ruth Show. And then Facebook can suck it about how I'm not allowed to change my page name to the Katrina Ruth Show, because they were like, "Where's the show?" And I'm like, "Bitches please. This is the motherfucking show." Seriously. So then if it's my legal name? Just amazing. I'm just amazed at my own amazingness right now. I'm very impressed with myself. This cushion is scratching my back up. I'm exfoliating my back right now with these sequins. Katrina Ruth: And where did my other motherfucking cushion go? Did that purple cushion escape so far that I can't even see it? It's behind me. Okay. You've got to have a little bit of crazy in your life. People will be like, that's too far, changing your name to Show. No they wouldn't, you guys wouldn't, but normal people would. Well what's even the point of life if you can't muck around and be silly and have fun and shenanigans? We are going to have so much shananiganary on this Darwin retreat. I'm so excited that I'm doing a retreat in Darwin, I can't believe I didn't know that. I can't believe that the divine forces just aligned themselves together right now. I've been putting off organising a retreat in Australia for so long, because I'm like fuck the Gold Coast. Okay, this is the Gold Coast and it's quite beautiful and I have an amazing view here and I have a huge double story apartment here where technically I could run a fucking retreat here ... but I just didn't feel it, I didn't feel it, I didn't feel it. Katrina Ruth: And then the Darwinism came through within the whole Darwinism bit, but definitely the Darwin bit. We're going to have the best time ever. I'm going to bring my sister Jess up. Somebody tell her. Maybe I should rope in some of my friends. Maybe I should bring some of my badass friends. We're going it on Thursday August 30th. We just co-launched it right here on this live stream Helen. People in America, you would totally come from America to a retreat in Darwin. It'll be fucking amazing. Who of my friends would you want to see at this retreat? Put your votes in and we'll see if we can persuade them. And then I've got to do the retreat somewhere in America that's like ... For those of you who don't know where Darwin is, it's in the desert, it's the red fucking centre, it's where Uluru is slash Ayers rock, whatever it's being called now. I'm sorry I'm not up to speed. That's probably very politically incorrect. And you know, the crockadoo and there are very many scary beasties, that probably the Americans will all be scared of. Katrina Ruth: That's where the real dangerous things are I suppose, no it could be anywhere, it could be right here on this chair. And then yeah, yeah. Sedona I've been too, I feel like Sedona's too obvious, because every motherfucker does Sedona. Do you know what I mean? What's the west coast, tell me more about that. Does that mean the side where New York is? Is that what you mean by west coast? I do know that, but you have to be more specific. You're thinking Ellis Springs with the Uluru. Okay you're right, I don't know anything about geography, but we could travel. We could take a day trip. It's in the same state. It's not even a state, it's not even a state, it's a fricken territory. You getting me distracted. So I want to do it somewhere that's super cool and outdoorsy. Maybe in like a mountainous part of California, what do you think about that? All right, we'll figure it out. Leanna Francisco, that's a fabulous name. Maybe my surname should be Francisco, except it's going to be Show. West coast is California. Okay I know nothing about geography. Katrina Ruth: East coast ... ah, yeah, that's why they call it Eastern Standard time for the New York time. I'm not dumb, because clearly I've built a multi-seven figure business online, and by the way I'm a mass genius. Yosemite is amazing, I've been there, I got snowed in in an RV. Oregon, I've never been there. So clearly I have some wit and intelligence about me, but don't ask me things about geography, I get very fucking confused. And the other thing that I really can never figure out ... What? Who's ringing my doorbell right now? What's happening? Is that my sister turning up 26 minutes early? Inappropriate. I don't mind really, but I hate to be interrupted on a live stream. What's going on? Let's tell her off. You're early, I'm on a live stream. No it's fine, I was being a smart ass so that the livestream people laughed at me. Okay she made a funny face, I don't think she thought it was funny. She was like, "Oh, sorry." All right, don't worry. Anyway, we'll tell her about the Darwin retreat. There we go, I cracked the door for her. Katrina Ruth: Hey would you like a tour? This is lounge room, look how boring it looks I need some ... There's supposed to be a big picture behind that wall, it fell down. Here's another balcony for you, it's a bit misty today. Kitchen, and there's a whole upstairs. Massive kitchen. Here's my studio where we were. See this long ass picture on the wall was supposed to be behind that other couch. And there's my daughter's playroom. This is a little girl's heaven in here. It's supposed to be a study but she commandeered it. I like her style. There's the throne, its sorry ass is now sitting in the corner. Okay so it's been established, we're doing a Darwin retreat, Darwin is not Alice Springs. Katrina does not know east coast from west coast but she does know how to make money online. So you can all forgive her and you can all listen. And now I'm apparently talking about myself in the third person from now on. Did you know, did you know, before I get distracted by magickery and shenaniganary, did you hear the Empress is open? Katrina Ruth: Mim, give them some Empress details. But this is only for the people who know that they're like so bored as fuck with themselves for not showing up fully. And really that part of the reason for that is that you're actually not here just to be a frigging coach. You can coach all day long, but it's not who you're really here for. How you're really here. Why you're really here. Who you're really here to be, I'll get there eventually. It's to be an empress at the helm of the empire. Commanding the minions to do things. Okay that sounds really bad, but tell me you don't like the sound of it. And if you don't, don't apply, simple. Empress. It's time for some empresses to step into their empressness. Epressness. Empressory. Empressory. What does it say here on this comment. This is some damn compelling copy if I do say so myself. This came out of me like a woosh, like a woosh of magic and power. I was on a plane on the way to Bali, so much badassery comes out when I'm on Bali. Katrina Ruth: Ask valet guys to let you up or buzz again if they say no. The live stream people need to see you now. She said the buzzer didn't work. They are waiting. I have something to tell you. I'm just messaging her on what's up. All right. That stupid buzzer. My buzzer of my apartment, it's very snooty. It's very hoity-toity about who it will let in and not let in. It basically never lets Kelly Renee in. I think it started letting Kelly Renee in now, it will just let in whoever it likes. It usually lets Matt in, he should be here in not too long. My videographer. And it just basically selects who it wants in. Shogun ninjas. Yeah they are ninjas, they're actually ninjas. I guess I was referring to my children as the minions. You can't have them. But really ninjas, that's exactly right Carla. Who doesn't want ninjas. Let me tell you about Empress, I'm going to read it to you. It's such a kick in the ass read. It really is. It will reach into your soul. Hang on. Okay, no that was my blog. I almost accidentally read you my whole blog. Katrina Ruth: You should go read that, that is an ass kicking and a half. Empress, claim your rightful place now. Ready to play into the camera, give them a show. Turn the dial up and become a motherfucking star. Empress. Claim your rightful place now. Four weeks, one on one, with Katrina Ruth, excuse me, legal name, The Katrina Ruth Show ... for women unapologetically born for more. Jessa says ha, ha, okay. She'll be here shortly. This is what is missing ... listen to this, let it speak to your soul. I'm going to sermonise to you now. Sermonise. This is what is missing, you, you're a queen. Okay should be on the throne. But I'm just over the throne right now. You're a queen, a leader, a bad ass, we know this. You were born for it and it shines out of every pore of you, but more than that, you're a motherfucking empress. If you know that's true, shower me with love hearts now. Claim your place as an empress. Katrina Ruth: You're a motherfucking empress gorgeous, you've always known this and let's get real now. It might sting a little. This whole little game you're playing of, "I'm a coach, and teach this or that, or the other thing. Join my programme, sign up for my stuff, I'll teach you how. And I'll show you the process and how it can help you." Well it sounds pretty fucked up to me. Jessa is laughing at me in the background. I'm just taking off the stepford-preneurs. We'll bring her on shortly. You're going to have to say something amusing or she refuses to get on. She's very much the diva. It might sting a little. Oh I said that bit already. Okay this little game you're playing. Okay it was never going to cut it, was it now? No. Oh that hurt my boob. I flung my hand ... it keeps happening to me, I did it on a live stream with Patrick yesterday, I was like, "Hug. Ow." This left one is stuffed up, it doesn't want to be stretched too far. It's very juicy though. Katrina Ruth: It was never going to ... this is my sales video by the way, sales video. If we could chop it out and put it on a sale page, it would be as appropriate as fuck. It was never going to cut it now was it? No. This is not new information for you, der. You look around at all the things you tell yourself you have to do each day. The way you think you got to show up, sell, prove your worth, get people to want to learn from you, and therefore pay you ... why did I not think of putting this on a scripty thing on an iPad behind the tripod and I could have just read it and you would have thought I'm a magician. So well versed in my own copy, I am a magician. We'll talk about that in a moment. Magic and power, it's coming. I think I'm doing a good demo of it. What am I up to here? The way ... I did that bit. Katrina Ruth: The way, I'll do it again. The way you think you got to show up, sell, prove your worth, get people to want to learn from you, and therefore pay you, and what you don't see is that ... listen to this bit, write this shit down. Sit up fucking straight and pay attention Deneen and everybody else as well. You probably were already sitting up, since you just said that you're glad you didn't fall asleep ... the reason you were always meant to be paid ... Damn highly, I might add, is for people to be in your presence. In your aura. There's nobody laughing at me behind the tripod. So I can't be doing any live streams in public anymore, they've gone next, next level. To be in your aura. Is it true or is it true? To soak up the energy and the essence of you. Ode d'tea tree deodorant. Tea tree oil deodorant. And Chanel. To be lifted up and elevated to where they need to be, and into the action which automatically just goes with it, because of the way that you show up and shine. Katrina Ruth: This has nothing to do with what you teach. It's not a motherfucking strategy. I am giving you sales genius to read right now. Genius to read, so word, write it down. And you can break down the components of it all you like, but really it's a vibration thing. Okay this is where you know if empress is for you or not, because you've either got it or you don't. I can't give you that shit, I can't make you a motherfucking star, you already are the damn star and maybe you just need a little bit of soul alignment and adjusting and ass kicking. It's a vibration thing, you either got or you don't. If you got it, why are you not flaunting it? And you, well you have always had it, haven't you? You who knows who you are. Okay there's definitely some Vegemite with avocado and vegetables coming up right now. Have some coffee. All right. You always had it, haven't you? You've always been that person who shines so, full stop. Fucking full stop. Bright full stop. Katrina Ruth: Who sees the world in a particular way in which others do not, who has lived their life, that came out weird ... in a certain way in which others do not, who has quite literally trained for this shit. Since you were a young girl, as far back as you can remember, no need to pretend otherwise. You knew you were born for more. You looked around, I feel like Dr. Deuce now ... As though in a daze. Not quite understanding what everybody else was on about, so boring, or why they cared so much. So lame. And just kind of sort of always fucking realising, "Well. This is not where I am going to be anyway." Yes? Yes. "These are not my people. This is not my path. This is not the world I will operate in." It is as though your soul always knew, since before time even began, that you came from different stock. My god I'm a copywriting genius. Somebody should pay me for this shit, except I wouldn't do it for any money in the world, I'd do it for the fun. Katrina Ruth: For the fun and for the flow. I tell you how to write that shit out too. You were born into the wrong world, you had to spend time there for perhaps for learning, or growth, or just the gathering of patience, but it was always clear that one day ... Okay this sounds mean ... just as with an orphan, who dreams she is really born of royalty, reality, royalty? Same thing. Your real life would come for you. What you didn't realise, what you were perhaps never told ... and why would you be, because who would tell you back then, or even know ... but I'm telling you now. What you must now take ownership of, is that the life you've been waiting for this whole time, and the you who you've always known you must step into, it was never going to come for you at all. You have to step up for it. All right. When you're ... oh my goodness I want to stop but there's just a little bit more I've got to read, and then I've got some things to say. I'm getting fired up right now. Katrina Ruth: Now here we are. You show up online every day doing the do. Valiantly seeking to demonstrate why you are better coach, or even the best ... When actually you are not a motherfucking coach at all. And quite frankly the whole thing faintly sickens you, because when all is said and done and if you dare to admit it, you're just so much more than that. That's all. It's the way it's always been. You just didn't know you had to own it is all. And now, well you wonder why you struggle to break that next income level. You wonder why so many of the things you set out to do exhaust you, and you either don't do them ... and continually beat up on yourself for it ... give me a comment if read the [inaudible 00:25:29] of this ... or you do them and you resent every fucking second of it. You wonder what is wrong with you. Why you can't just get your shit done. Why you don't seem to think or feel like the other coaches. Katrina Ruth: And why it doesn't feel like flow yet when the whole damn point supposed to that you just get to wake up each day, follow your heart, create your art, do what you can't not. And you know that yes, it actually motherfucking was. So why does it not feel that yet, why is it that even when you're claiming flow and ease there is this constant fucking niggle there? Why? Why? Talking directly to you, [inaudible 00:26:04]. This constant fucking niggle there, I knew exactly why that niggle's there. I lost the word niggle on my screen right now though. It's a dilemma. Ah, this missing piece, this emptiness, this frustration, this won't you all fuck off and leave me alone energy. Yes, you should put a queenie emoji in if you know that this is you. Isn't it obvious? Don't you see? Haven't you always fucking known? You're not a coach. You're not an online business owner. You're not even actually an entrepreneur. Not if there's a period after it, anyway. Entrepreneur period? No. Entrepreneur amongst many other fabulous things. Yes. You can do all these things. Be all these things. Katrina Ruth: And indeed always will ... however, what you are, who you are, how it's always been, and why the whole damn thing is not in fact flowing as you know it could and should be, is because you are an empress baby. Lucky I didn't do this on the beach. Born for more. Born for exceptional. Born for extraordinary and not of this world. And you tell yourself how outrageous it is, to think so highly of you, to expect so much, to feel that really if the world were at rights with itself you would be in charge. Me, I'd be in charge. Just to be clear. You might feel the same way, but really it's me. We all know that. I don't mind for you, but it's really me.but you might think that you created a manifested me, but really it was me. But think whatever you like. You would be in charge. To know that you know, that you know, that people really need to shut the fuck up and listen to you. Katrina Ruth: And that actually you should always and only get to do what you want, have what you want, with the click of your fingers and the blink of your eyes and totally as you imagined it. And that while we're on it, people should motherfucking you pay just to be in your presence. Am I right or am I right. Give me an Amen if I'm right. You can do it via Amen, A-M-E-N period. With or without the period, or love heart shower, or little cat emojis. Whatever works for you. You tell yourself it's too much and crazy when in actual fact you know, and you've always known she says ... with a shrug of her shoulders and a what do you want me to do about it look ... this is just how it is. Which I suppose begs the question, when in actual fact do you think that you might start own the fact that this is how it is? Hmm? Hmm. I like that Amen Katherine, nicely done. How about ... Question, How about right fucking now? Empress, caps lock on, claim your rightful place, now. Katrina Ruth: Four weeks one on one with Katrina Ruth ... excuse me, The Katrina Ruth Show, legal name ... for women unapologetically born for more. Jess apply to have my changed to The Katrina Ruth Show. Go into the Queensland name changing register. I'm changing my surname to Show. And the first name's going to be The Katrina. And I'm not joking, just for laughs, straight no shenanigans. Jessa: Is it a space or two words? Katrina Ruth: Space. My first name is going to be The Katrina. And my middle name will be Ruth and my surname is Show. Jessa: I think it can be done. Katrina Ruth: Yes. She's doing it now. Ninjas, they're everywhere. Everywhere. What are we up to? Four weeks one on one with The Katrina Ruth Show for women unapologetically born for me. Empress energy and vibrations. Katherine's changing her last name to Empress, all in. Empress expectations and demands. With a humble, grateful attitude. Empress environment, every part of it. Empress empire, the whole shebang. Empress copy, it's a free bonus. You can have it when you come to the Darwin retreat. Empress motherfucking everything ... the way it was always supposed to be. It is time to stop playing so coy, pretending you want for so little and telling yourself a story. I'm channelling the version of me where I do my branding videos with Chris Collins in LA where I just turn it on ... I'm turning it on. Well I did write my blog this morning, Turn It On. It's time to stop playing so coy, I'll say it again. Pretending you want for so little and telling yourself a story. Katrina Ruth: That you're here to build a business online, make some money, be one of the fucking pack, when the only truth is always ... You were born to run the world. Beyonce as fuck. Run this thing. Empress initiation has begun. Your rightful place is waiting. This is one on one with me, the likes of which has never been done before ... Well actually it was done the first time that I ran Empress. But this is the second time. And that was fucking amazing and oh my holy Vegemite, wait till you see the feedback from that. I will share the testimonials. Whatever, it matters whether it's speaking to your soul or not, but still I will. It will take your breath away. It will shake you to the core. It will cause you to question everything you're doing right now ... Let's be honest, you already are. Katrina Ruth: What am I up to, I keep losing my place. And it will show you unapologetically why you feel so damn empty inside when you're supposedly doing everything you're meant to be doing. How can you feel what you're mean to feel, when it was always supposed to be about, and what it was always supposed to be about, when you haven't even actually begun on the life you really came here to build. There's a reason you feel like so much is missing, and here is what it is ... The thing you've been missing is being the real fucking you. Empress gorgeous, me and you. Claim your rightful place and everything which goes with it. When? Life is now. Time to be the motherfucking show. Private message me on my personal Katrina Ruth page for details. Goddamn it, I just made an entire sales video. Ash will be thrilled. That was quite a bit of shenanaginary that injected itself into the sales video. And do you know what else I did? I launched an entire retreat in Darwin. And you're coming as well by the way Jess. Jessa: Oh sweet. Katrina Ruth: Yep. That just happened on the live stream. Somebody said that they're there from Darwin and next thing we were planning an Airbnb of higher vibration [inaudible 00:32:05] in Darwin. It's going to be August 30th. Can you come? Jessa: Yes. Katrina Ruth: Would you like to go on the live stream? Do you have anything to say to people? She's thinking about it. she's considering it. Jessa: I don't have my ninja costume ready though. Katrina Ruth: You look amazing. Jessa: Well that's true. Katrina Ruth: Well that's true, it's obvious she says. She like, why do you even say such a silly thing. I don't know do we need to get another chair? Are we going to pull this chair over? Who wants Jess to appear on the live stream? Jess is the ... What are you even? She's the business manager, she's the mistress of the Millionaire Mastermind ... are you the mistress? The mother hen? Jessa: Someone said I was the sensei. Katrina Ruth: She's the sensei. Oh wise, one. Oh wise one. Jessa: Wise sensei. Katrina Ruth: Oh wise one, would you like to join me on my live stream wise one? Jessa: Yes, I feel [crosstalk 00:32:55] capes back here, I feel like [crosstalk 00:32:59]. Katrina Ruth: Put a cape on if you must, capes will make you look like Dracula, they're atrocious. Jess has never been on a live stream with me. Jessa: No. Katrina Ruth: Everybody's giving you a lot of love heart showers. You need 45 cushions. Don't appear without 45 cushions. You got to go get all the cushions. Jessa: [inaudible 00:33:18] yeah. Katrina Ruth: Because you'll feel like a little, so you'll feel like a little minion sitting down on that chair. Let me get you another purple cushion. Hold yourself tight right wherever you are. Don't hold yourself in a rude way, that's not what I meant by hold yourself tight. Well you can if you want. All right. You want to have one of them behind you. You want to sit on two cushions or maybe one, depends on how you feel. Perch, perch on the cushions. Jessa: She's going to have the lackeys now push apply cushions. Katrina Ruth: There we go, there's mini cushions. Jessa: I feel like there's too many cushions. Katrina Ruth: There's no such thing as too many cushions. Look at the side boob, would you? It's quite incredible. Okay somebody said ... one of my male friends said to me yesterday, why have I not sent him a photo of my breasts yet. And I was [inaudible 00:34:06]. That's not something I was planning to do. He was like, "Oh I just feel like whenever girls get their boobs done, they always want to show everyone." I'm like, "Well that's true, they do look amazing," but I'm trying stay within the realms of what's appropriate and not send before and after photos as requested to all my male friends. Jessa: I think it is now time to get you some of those Lady GaGa nipple [crosstalk 00:34:28]. Katrina Ruth: I'm not wearing nipple tassels. This woman is- Jessa: No tassels. Katrina Ruth: If someone is insisting in dressing me in bizarre things- Jessa: Sequined stickers. Katrina Ruth: Here she comes, give her a warm welcome. My sister Jessa, mistress, sensei, the ... What the fuck? Jessa: Den master? That was naughty. Katrina Ruth: Hold on, I didn't sign off on den master. Didn't we say ringleader? Jessa: Oh yeah, ringleader was one. Katrina Ruth: Really? Jessa: I like ringleader. Katrina Ruth: Let's have a vote, look at all the love that you're getting. You might speak to Jessa in a lot of my groups. And in fact we're going to do some filming today, that's why she's popped around. We're going to film a welcome video for the Millionaire Mastermind. Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: And you're going to get to know Jessa quite well in Millionaire Mastermind. But have you been on a live stream ... You might have done a live into High Vibe or something. Jessa: Yeah, I've done a live into High Vibe, I forced [inaudible 00:35:21] to do a live once. [crosstalk 00:35:24] Katrina Ruth: That's different, that's not you. You can't just say I forced someone- Jessa: Oh, well I was on it. Katrina Ruth: Oh you were in it. Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Madam Lash. Jessa: Ooh, that's ... Katrina Ruth: It's not a sex programme, it seems to be going- Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: ... but I have helped many people manifest amazing sex of life, it's an [inaudible 00:35:39] thing that I'm doing. I'm okay with it, I'll go with it. Mistress- Jessa: How does the lash play into place? Because I'll lash people. Well, yes. I did buy multiple whipping props for [crosstalk 00:35:57]. Katrina Ruth: If you see me holding weird ass props in my live streams, I don't mean like a normal sceptre, like obviously a queen would ... but if you see me pick up like riding crop- Jessa: See these? These were bought because they are ninja swords. And you have ninjas around you all the time. Katrina Ruth: Then she's like, "Do you want some nipple tassels?" Tina says gorgeous, the colour. Tina's the one who initiated the Darwin retreat because she said she was in Darwin. And somehow we all co-launched a retreat together. Jessa also made me this Chanel hip flask. She made it. Jessa: Well, I designated a ninja to make it. Katrina Ruth: She outsourced it. Like an official ninja does. Jessa: Yes. Katrina Ruth: But she oversaw it, she oversaw the design of it. Jessa: I feel like we should write to Chanel and say, "Excuse me-" Katrina Ruth: I don't know why the fuck you got me a key as a prop, what is this supposed to do. Jessa: Oh it was relevant to something at the time and now it's irrelevant. Katrina Ruth: I feel like you had this key in my props for ages, I'm like, "But why? What is it the key for?" Is it for the door where all the dead wives of Bluebeard are? Jessa: Who is Bluebeard? Is he a pirate? Katrina Ruth: No, Bluebeard's the one who kills all his wives. It's actually ... Bluebeard is representative of the darkness of your psyche. Jessa: Or, it could be that you hold the key to everything. And that's why people follow you. Katrina Ruth: That's fucking obvious, nobody needed to say that. Jessa: Excuse me. [crosstalk 00:37:18] Katrina Ruth: Bluebeard, this is a great story. Bluebeard ... who knows the story of Bluebeard? Key to a kick ass life. Bluebeard gets his wives, he seduces them, and even though he has a blue beard which is clearly something to do with [crosstalk 00:37:34]- Jessa: Who knows? Katrina Ruth: ... and then he tells them that they can have the run of the whole castle and the whole house, and do whatever they like, but they must not go into this one room. And he gives them the keys with all the keys on it. And then he leaves. And so in the story the younger sister had her older sister there. The younger sister being seduced by Bluebeard even though it was scary. So she was going to marry him. And then her sisters and her all, "Let's look inside the room." And then they opened and it was all the dead bodies of all his previous wives. But then the room door lock started to bleed and bleed and bleed, and they couldn't wipe the blood off them, not even with horsehair- Jessa: Super random story. Is this some sort of twisted [crosstalk 00:38:15] Katrina Ruth: No, this is very- Jessa: This demonic story you found online. Katrina Ruth: Shush. This is very relevant. Sneaky, I'll joust with you right now. Jessa: I don't know, I'm a ninja. Katrina Ruth: So just on a side note, if you see me being really silly on live stream, or being an idiot it likely comes about from how my siblings and I behave normally all the time anyway. Jessa: Yes, we're always jousting. Katrina Ruth: Always jousting. All four of us, it's just complete idiots. And then the partners just leave the room. Jessa: We don't have have cutlery, we just take things with our jousting sticks. Stab them up and eat them like skewers. Katrina Ruth: I think I just snotted snot. And we do, we end up in hysterics. And then all the partners would always just be like- Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: ... and they will retire the lounge. Jessa: It's like they're coming to this new dimension they don't know. Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Because our parents get involved as well, they're just as weird. So then it's all six of us. So if you come around to my mum and dad's house, or you come hang out with me and my siblings, you're going to have to be as weird as fuck, or you're just not going to be able to keep up. Jessa: Yeah, you'll leave a little bit shell shocked otherwise. Katrina Ruth: It'll be soul shifting, with or without the money making. Yes, you may need some therapy and some actual healing after the result of that. Anyway. So Bluebeard, so then the blood just keeps coming out and she can't wipe the blood off her, which means that he's coming back and she knows that he's going to know that he went into the room. Jessa: That they went into the room. Katrina Ruth: Yes? Question. Jessa: But if they ... Do I get the key or the sceptre. Katrina Ruth: The microphone. Jessa: Oh. Katrina Ruth: Where is the motherfucking microphone? The kids took it. Jessa: Let me do this, question. Katrina Ruth: No I don't want that. I don't like that. All right, question. Jessa: Question, okay. So if he's got all bodies of his dead wives in there anyway, they're going to die anyway whether they look in the room or not. So you- Katrina Ruth: Exactly right. Jessa: ... always look in the room. Katrina Ruth: Exactly right. Exactly right. Are we invited to your parent's house or what? Well you can come here and we'll bring them to you. Jessa: They'll be a [crosstalk 00:40:40]. Katrina Ruth: My mother doesn't care for feet on her floors. You're not allowed into mum and dad's house unless you manage to not walk on the floor. Jessa: You have to tiptoe on your hands. Katrina Ruth: No floor, there's no floor there. You can't walk on the floor. But we could bring them here. And anyway, that was an excellent point that you raised. You're right, he was going to kill her anyway, but she discovered it. And then she's obviously terrified of him, that he's going to find out- Jessa: She's got her sister there, just fucking kill that guy. Katrina Ruth: I'm getting to the beard, calm your horses. Or your tits, whichever one. Calm your tits. So anyway, and that what happens is he comes back, so she tries to hide it from him, she's just wiping blood up, blood everywhere, it doesn't come off, it won't come off. She's using horse hair to scrub the key, the key is covered in blood ... I don't know why you gave me such a terrible prop to like prompt such a horrible story. Jessa: Because. Katrina Ruth: It's an important story though. And then, and then- Jessa: That's why I got the key. Katrina Ruth: ... well he discovers that she's been in there and he's furious and the monster is revealed. And she thought he was ... Stop trying to not laugh, just let it out and admit that I'm hilarious. So then the monster is revealed, and she thought he was loving, even though he did have a blue beard, which is always as suspicious sign on a gentleman. Jessa: Very suspicious. Katrina Ruth: I wouldn't be getting involved with any men with blue beards. Unless of course they were from Byron Bay- Jessa: And unless- Katrina Ruth: ... and they had some gluten free chocolate, white chocolate and [crosstalk 00:42:17]- Jessa: Johnny Depp. Katrina Ruth: Brownies. Jessa: Johnny Depp died his beard for you. Katrina Ruth: Johnny Depp, really? We can do better than that. Jessa: What if Bradley Cooper dyed- Katrina Ruth: Exactly. Jessa: ... his beard blue. Katrina Ruth: Exactly what I'm going for. Exactly. Jessa: You would be like mm-hmm (affirmative), smurf, yeah. Katrina Ruth: Smurf-alicious. Jessa: Smurf-alicious. Blue. Katrina Ruth: Hm. Back on track. Fucking focus. So anyway, then he's outraged and he's going to kill her and he tells her. And so she pleads with him for a moment to prepare her spiritual affairs. Because she's smart enough to know that she doesn't know how to escape right now but that she needs that little moment of time. And so she goes to the high tower and she says, "Sisters, sisters, can you see our brothers?" And they say, "No." And she says, "Sisters, sisters, can you see our brothers?" And they say, "I can see like a tiny, powdery speck on the horizon." And she says, "Sisters, sisters, can you see our brothers?" And they say "Yes, our brothers are coming." And then the brothers come and they kill him. And now I'll tell you the meaning of the story. Are you ready? Jessa: Do tell. Katrina Ruth: [crosstalk 00:43:23]. It's the motherfucking psyche. It's the darkness that exists in all of us as women, the dark and the wild and the raw and the scary. And it's that darkness inside of you which can ... If you don't know how to dance with it, actually consume you and take your life from you. And how mean women, all women, or all girls growing up, really you can try to do what you want to try and ... Did Matt just knock on the door? Jessa: Maybe. Katrina Ruth: Can you go check? Jessa: Yep. Katrina Ruth: Crack the door open anyway, because he'll be here any minute. You can do what you want to try and protect your daughters and protect the younger generation from making mistakes and doing silly shit that maybe going to hurt them or land them in trouble, but they're going to go it because they don't recognise the danger in the Bluebeard. They don't recognise you know the need to understand and be consciously in control of the darkness of the psyche. And so they allow the psyche to take them and maybe some of them get lost fully in the psyche and they're gone and they're killed and then put behind the door. Hello Matt. Matt: Hello. Katrina Ruth: You can film any time. I don't know what's happening right now. And so, did you hear that? So you try all you like to protect your daughters ... gosh your daughter's going to be protecting other people, that's for sure. She is terrifying. And extraordinary beautiful as well. Which is a really scary combination. Jessa: She deviates from sweet and scary. Katrina Ruth: She lifts dining tables over her heads ... her head. Jessa: Her heads. Katrina Ruth: What was the other random thing she did. Jessa: That makes her sound more scary. And she insists on keeping eating chilli sauce. Katrina Ruth: She eats Tabasco. She drinks it from the bottle. She's two. Two. Two. We're out the other night and we get a photo of her just hoisting the dining table up over her head. And she drinks motherfucking Tabasco sauce. And I'm not even kidding. Jessa: [crosstalk 00:45:29] her three and a half year old brother- Katrina Ruth: And she's two years old. She's terrifying. Jessa: ... to help her out with the dining table. Katrina Ruth: As a ninja. Jessa: Yeah. But she initiated. Katrina Ruth: That girl's scary. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway. It's the darkness of the psyche. So you can try to protect your daughter's all you like from making silly mistakes, or the younger generation. They're going to do whatever the fuck they want. You can tell them all you like about the bluebeard, about the darkness, about the places to not go or look or they're just going to do what they want anyway. They're going to have their own experience. And hopefully they then catch it in time. And so when she's yelling for her sisters, when she's locked in the tower, you know she realised in time that he was going to kill her, so she asked for a reprieve to go to the tower to have a moment to collect her spiritual affairs. So she's realised that oh, maybe this is not safe and maybe her older sisters were already wiser and knew that. So then in that time, she's yelling, "Can you see our brothers? Can you see our brothers?" And they can't see them, because basically it represents that she doesn't have the knowledge or the wisdom in her psyche to know how to deal with her situation yet- Jessa: So she's calling it out? Katrina Ruth: Yeah, but it does exist in there, it exists in there. So then she asks again, "Sisters, sisters can you see our brothers?" And then they're like, "Well we can't see anything, but there's a little dust on the horizon," and it's like the knowledge is coming. The ability to deal with this stuff is coming. Females need to embrace the darkness as well as the light. That's right. We have to go through this experience. And then ultimately the monster is destroyed and and she's safe and she learned something and she goes on her way. It exists in all women ... How the fuck did we end up there? Bluebeard, we're talking about Bluebeard. Did you know the story of Bluebeard? Jessa: The key, this was the reason that the key was bought. Katrina Ruth: This is why we have a key that's covered in blood. Jessa: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. Katrina Ruth: I was going to talk about magic and power- Jessa: But the pipe is to make you look more wise. Katrina Ruth: That's the pipe. I don't smoke a pipe. Who buys a pipe? Jessa: Yes, but you could be in the study, you know, making wise commentary. Katrina Ruth: I'm always in the study making wise commentary. Wherever I am I'm always making wise commentary. That's a normal situation of fucking everyday life. Jessa: All right, I'll fucking sell the pipe. Katrina Ruth: Oh. Swear on my live stream, how dare you. Jessa: Oh dear. Katrina Ruth: Irreverent. Well the brothers and sisters save her, but they represent the other parts of her psyche- Jessa: So you can't take it literally. Katrina Ruth: ... the wiser part- Jessa: Because I was like, why would she be needing her brothers, because you'd deal with that yourself? Fuck yeah. Katrina Ruth: I like how the men deal with things. Jessa: It depends. Katrina Ruth: Well the sisters are the more evolved wiser parts of the psyche and the brothers are the protective parts of the psyche, I think in the story. Jessa: So in my life story, you're just the more evolved part of my psyche. Katrina Ruth: Good on you mate. I'm finding these [inaudible 00:48:24] very distracting. Jessa: Very Grand Prix. Katrina Ruth: Yeah what's happening here, are you going to the Formula One afterwards? Matt: Yup. Katrina Ruth: Okay. Sorry I'm just in a very silly mood. All right. Now what were we up to? Magic and power. We'll say something about that, and then we've got to go, we've got to go. You guys are holding us up, you're just mucking around and climbing around and stopping us from doing what we're really meant to be doing. I was supposed to ... We've got to do some filming here. I was supposed to be live streaming on you know how fucking powerful and magical you are, and that is a fact. Reason being, I messaged that to someone an hour or so back, and we were having a conversation and I was like, "Let's get clear. You know how fucking powerful and magical you are." I know it. All my clients know it. All my friends know it. Jessa knows it. Matt knows it ... I mean about themselves even, and you know it as well. Everyone knows it about me, that's a given. But you do know it about yourself. Katrina Ruth: So you know sometimes when you're in the doubt, or you're in the resistance, or you feel uncertain about getting your message or your ad out there. Or you're like, I could never carry on ... I mean I'm just assuming you want to carry on like me on a live stream ... but really, why would you not want to be a complete clown and have fun and make money doing it? And then you think I'm not good enough for that or I can't, or I don't have it within me or something like that. Really what I wanted to come on today and say today and then somehow a whole bunch of random shit happened is ... Beneath the fear and beneath the uncertainty. Beneath the doubt, beneath the "Maybe I'm not born for this," you do fucking know and that is a fact. Or you wouldn't be here. So when you feel all that stuff, it's the surface stuff. That's not how you actually feel at the core. Katrina Ruth: And it's ... what it is is just layers. Layer upon layer upon layer. Get me an onion and I'll demonstrate. Except we don't have onions, because I hate them. It's devil's food. What can I demonstrate with. Get me a packet of bread out of the fridge. Yes, it's true. I have bread, it's embarrassing. Jessa: What? Do you [crosstalk 00:50:22]. Katrina Ruth: Bring me the bread. Jessa: Okay. Katrina Ruth: Bring me the bread. I'm going to do a live demonstration. This has been best live stream in the history of time. So far we launched an entire retreat in Darwin ... maybe you can come to that? Matt: When's that? Katrina Ruth: August 30th. Say hello to the camera. Are you there? Am I showing you? Matt: Yeah, I'm on. Katrina Ruth: There's Matt. Maybe Matt can come to the Darwin retreat because that definitely sounds like something we would want- Matt: I've never been to Darwin. Katrina Ruth: Me either. And then somebody from Darwin popped on the live stream and said hi from Darwin, and suddenly I said I think we should do a retreat in Darwin. Matt: Why not? Katrina Ruth: And we just co-created it right here. It's going to be on August 30th. We're going to get an amazing Airbnb, it'll be four nights, it'll be soul shifts and money making and lots of shenanigans. And lots of adventures. Matt: Yeah. Jessa: I feel like I should deliver this on a platter. Katrina Ruth: Get me a platter. Jessa: Like I could buy you one. Katrina Ruth: Can I have a platter? Jessa: Right now? Katrina Ruth: Bloody hell. All right, there is bread in my house, it's embarrassing. Helen said, Matt's cute. He hears that all the time, he's very used to it. Especially from my audience. Jessa: You know you could peel [crosstalk 00:51:27] Katrina Ruth: I don't know is it just my audience or do you get that whenever you're filming? Matt: Oh it depends who it is. Katrina Ruth: It's probably just all these women. Okay so we have here- Jessa: Lots of crumbs. Katrina Ruth: ... a very flaky packet of bread. It's gluten free. It's Paleo as fuck, don't worry. Should we get some [inaudible 00:51:45]- Jessa: Well you may as well have a snack. Katrina Ruth: I already was like face first in a jar of Vegemite earlier this morning. Now my dad's got a café and they're like, "Uh, there's Vegemite on your face." Burn the bread. So anyway, this is the BL layout. No it's not. This is the layer that you present to ... This is going to be a great skit by the way. Jessa: Yes. Katrina Ruth: This is the layer you present to Facebook, okay? On Facebook you're like, la-di-da, look at me, my hair is glowing and I look fabulous. Or even if it's not, you post some happy, chappy photos and your life is amazing. That is your surface layer. Surface layer, say it after me. Surface layer. My ninja will take that for me. Beneath, okay we don't need a crust. There's just a crust there just for no reason. Jessa: Crusts should be thrown out- Katrina Ruth: Why is the crust in the middle? Jessa: ... immediately after opening the bread. Katrina Ruth: The crust is the best bit. Jessa: That's disgusting. Katrina Ruth: This is the next layer, as you can see. This layer is the fear layer. This is the what if people really knew ... I know I've got to look at this camera. You'll excuse me. What if people really knew the truth about me? What if they knew that I've been [inaudible 00:52:50] all night long. That I'm drinking an excessive amount. That I yell and shout at my children. That I'm not really a nice person. That I have fucking clue what I'm on about and every day I'm worried that the fraud police are going to knock on the door and be like, "Hey. We have evidence to prove you're not a real adult. Everybody knows." That's the fear layer, lurks underneath the other layer. Okay we've got another Matt is cute, why was I not informed. I'm sorry I didn't have a prior arrangement with you Ellen that I have to inform you. I guess you could just watch more of my shows and then you'd see more. So that's the fear layer, everyone has it and you don't want everyone to know. Katrina Ruth: Underneath the fear layer, you have the fuck this shit layer. Official Wikipedia terminology. Fuck this shit layer. That is like, "Actually I'm pretty fucking certain that I know exactly what I'm doing and I don't know what these bitches over here think that they're doing, but I should be in charge." Fuck this shit layer. We should have prepared these breads earlier and written on them. Jessa: Oh that would have been good. Katrina Ruth: That would have been awesome. Underneath the fuck this shit layer, you have the despair layer. It's okay, we all have it, no need to get fat. The despair layer, the "I really don't think I actually know what I'm doing at all and I feel kind of hopeless. And I feel down and sometimes I feel completely lost and meaningless. Nobody really understands me, and I'm probably never, ever going to get there and I should probably just give up now." Despair layer. Lisa says she's in bed right now wallowing in that layer. Thank you for owning it. Underneath the despair layer, it's just a chocolate layer. It's a layer of chocolate mud cake. Underneath the chocolate layer is the core. The core. The core is solid, it's gritty. It's not at all flaky, this one is. It's solid, it is rock solid. It's a diamond. It's a fucking diamond. Do we have a big ass diamond anywhere in this room that I- Jessa: Oh no. We should. Katrina Ruth: ... can use? It is hard as steel. And this layer knows that all the other layers, except for the chocolate layer and the fuck this shit layer, are bullshit. It knows that the surface layer ... go through it again, in case anybody missed it. Have the crust. It's getting messy. I just had the house cleaned this morning as well. It knows that the surface, shiny Facebook layer is like, whatever. Who fucking even cares? It knows that the fear layer is actual bullshit. The core knows that the fear is bullshit. It knows that the fuck this shit layer is kind of like, cool, cool, but me thinketh the lady doth protesteth too much. Everyone knows what that means, right? Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: If you don't you have to leave. It knows that the ... what are we up to? Wait, I feel like I've got an extra layer that's been added in. Oh despair layer. It knows that the despair and sadness layer is just reactivness and resistance playing out. It's the human as fuck condition, it's okay, we're all allowed to have it. It knows that the chocolate layer is not going any fucking place and we'll hold on to it forever. And it knows that the core is the core. At your core, underneath all the layers, you know that you were born for it. You know that you were absolutely fucking born for it. You know you are magic, you know you are powerful. You know you are here to change the world. You know that everything you feel inside of you is real and that if you would only just throw all of ... It had to be done. If you would just throw all the layers off of you, then you would be living, breathing from the core. And all I did was let out the motherfucking core. Katrina Ruth: The [inaudible 00:56:28], give me them back to me, I need them back. No not really. The other layers they just heap themselves back on, back on, back on, all the time, every day. Sneaking up on me like invisible little evil ninjas and I'm just throwing them away all the time. Left, right, and centre. And I remain at my core, the whole story. Thank you for playing. Life is now. Press fucking play. What would you like to add? Jessa: Oh I don't know what I can add to that. Katrina Ruth: Any additions? Well, I feel like I said what I came here to say. In fact I said none of what I came here to say at all. But it was fabulous and so now we have to go. We have many very serious and important things to do. No shenanigans at all. But basic point is, you fucking know that you were born for it. Don't walk around saying that you're not. Man or woman the fuck up and do your shit. And when it comes up inside of you, just throw the bread layers off you and think of me. Get a chocolate layer if necessary or a coffee layer, or whatever it is. And why don't you just fucking pretend that you're already living from the core layer the whole time anyway? Nobodies going to know the difference. And then one day you'll wake up and you will have become it. Jessa: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Katrina Ruth: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's the whole story. Jessa: That was fun. Katrina Ruth: So now you should watch the replay if you missed any, because the whole thing was amazing. And then you should read the comment in there and Empress has returned, you should private message me if you want to be an empress ... My golly gosh, that was probably the favoritest new thing that I ever did. And the Darwin retreat. Jessa's coming, Matt might be coming, we check our dates. It is going to be beyond. We're going to have 10 women, plus ninja, plus videography, plus shenanigans ... One incredibly luxurious high end Airbnb house. Many Paleo as fuck, espresso martinis, many shenanigans, we're going to hustle. We're going to do money making and soul ... sell ... What's it called again? Soul and cellular shifts- Jessa: [crosstalk 00:58:33] Katrina Ruth: ... and money making. And we're definitely going to do some random as fuck adventures in nature. Jessa: Ride crocodiles. Katrina Ruth: And then we're going to figure out ... We're going to ride ... I told you the American side can't be scared about this. And then we're going to do some sort of equivalent adventure in California. What's a good mountainous part of California? Come on. Matt: I don't know. Tahoe's it. Katrina Ruth: Huh? Matt: Tahoe? Katrina Ruth: I've been to Lake Tahoe but I went in the snow. Matt: I was in the snow as well. Katrina Ruth: Oh. Matt: Brother went as there, summer's good as well. Katrina Ruth: Maybe it will be on Lake Tahoe. Yeah, it was on the way to Lake Tahoe that we stopped at some incredibly mountainous place where we had pancakes. And the pancakes were good so I think we should go back to that. Jessa: Well, okay. Katrina Ruth: I have no idea where it was. Well anyway, we'll do it, we'll do it, we'll figure it out. So that's happening. Message me on my personal PMs please, because it can't be fucked with the business page, PMs there annoy me, I won't read them. I make Jessa do it or somebody else. She doesn't do it. Jessa: No, a ninja does it. Katrina Ruth: That's all. Lake Tahoe or Big Bear. Big Bear, hmm. Mount Tamalpais ... Matt: What's the one that starts with Y? Katrina Ruth: Yosemite. Matt: Yeah that's [crosstalk 00:59:42] Katrina Ruth: Yeah, maybe it will be Yosemite. I don't want to do it in Sedona, it's like, so over-rated. What was that expression again? Jessa: Oh, I don't do- Katrina Ruth: I don't do Sedona. We have a little in-house joke going on here. I don't do Sedona. I don't do Sedona. All right, we have to go. It's going for too long. Up you go, they're holding us up. Okay. Watch the replay, message me about Empress or about the other thing, the Sedona thing ... No, not that one. We're not doing that. The Darwin thing. Just send me a message anyway, to tell me how much you love me. And Jessa has a very important finishing statement. Jessa: Oh. Life is now? Press play. Katrina Ruth: Press fucking play. Bye.

That "I'm not ready" feeling.   It creeps in every time you want to expand, to get bigger with your message. And your 3 Word Rebellion? Well that requires you to get bigger. (If you don't know what a 3 Word Rebellion is, go to threewordrebellion.com and check it out) That 3 Word Rebellion requires you to take up more space, to speak its truth every day of the week. When you and I see that requirement, it is so easy to let the "I'm not ready" feeling to creep in. I hear it all the time when I'm on decision making calls with potential clients. They tell me "I'll be ready when I reach seven figures in my business." "I'll be ready after I work with this coach and then take this other course and then maybe do this mastermind program.” "I'll be ready when I finish the book or launched the course or teach the workshop..." "I'll be ready when life settles down"  Side note, rebels, it never will. "I'll be ready when I have large expanses of time to focus on my message." Here's the rebel truth: You'll always move the readiness finish line. Your readiness to spread the message to get known for the work you do is not dependent on being more, taking more courses, getting another degree, or making a gazillion figures. Your readiness depends on your decision to feel uncomfortable.   Because "I'll be ready" keeps us safe when we know we have to move out of our comfort zone. So how do you know when you're really ready? Here are three signs that you’re ready to get out there and be seen and know for your 3 Word Rebellion.

Oh, what's up, Facebook? Welcome to the livestream. Super grainy, isn't it? Can I turn this light on? Yes, please. Thank you. Okay, that's a bit better. I am on my way out. I'm going out. Got some cool stuff happening tonight. I've been tearing some shreds off today, people, mainly off my own self. What's up, Kitty? Hey, who else is there? Ooh, how do I share this? Hey, Declan. Hello, people of the internet. How can I share this livestream from my personal page into my Daily Asskickery group? I feel like an idiot, like I think I should know how to do things on Facebook at this point in my career. Hi, Candice. Can somebody share this into the Daily Asskickery Facebook group? Ooh, actually I have an idea, one second, pause yourselves right there, I'm going to bring it in a moment. I'm going to exit out of this screen and see if I can share it in my Safari browser. All right, I'm so intelligent, I'm so impressed with myself. So I'm in a cab, I'm here in Bali, there's a little bit of Bali, I'm always in Bali, you know that, I'm probably going to move to Bali. I'm heading out to a beach club, badass beach club. My friend just messaged me and said, make sure I get one of the daybeds if I get there first. We're going to do so may shenanigan-y things, it's just how it has to be today. It's getting to about that time of life o'clock, isn't it? It's getting to shenanigan o'clock, I would say. I've felt the kind of fury just building up in me. If you read my blog post that I published 20 minutes ago, you will understand. Now, I know I just exited the fricking screen, but I've got to get one more thing and I'm going to put it in the comments. I'll tell you in a minute, I'm pretty angry at myself, I'm actually going to do an entire ... The first training module for my new course, which is called BreakTheInternet.com, and don't go to the URL, because there is ... Well, there probably is breaktheinternet.com, but I'm just calling it that because it's just how it came out. So it's not my URL, all right? So my new course is BreakTheInternet.com, and it is a 10 day smack down, it's going to be full on, I've got so much energy and passion. The first module is called Get Fucking Angry, because I'm fucking angry, I am so fucking angry at myself right now. It all started, actually my awareness of my own shittiness, at my own self started so the link, don't click on the link, whatever you do, do not click on links that I give you. All right, there's some Bali views for you. It was a pile of a stones, I hope you enjoyed it. What one did I tell you about the other day? No, fuck that shit, that can come later on in the week, it's actually amazing. I just can't follow a plan. It was a three day plan, it was a four day plan, whatever fucking plan it was that my team had that I agreed to, that it was my plan maybe, but then I pre planned something and then I just wanted to smack myself in the head, basically. I'm going to get angry at you for you. I'm happy to get angry at you [inaudible 00:03:25]after this and yell at you if you like? Well, no I won't because I'm going to be at Fins meeting amazing people and having the best time ever. I'm going to go meet so many cool new people tonight. Last night I went out with people who I've never even met before. Like just put myself in a brand new situation, 100% new people. New people that were just created yesterday, I created them into my own reality. I mean, my team don't know yet about this because it is Sunday. Christian, what's up? It is Sunday in Australia so I've actually done something behind my team's back and possibly Broman Kelly will be on it because she's like a bloodhound that one. She's on everything. My brother definitely won't be on it because he'll be like, not checking his WhatsApp, but I did message him on WhatsApp and I said on the WhatsApp, I said, "I'm sorry I couldn't do it I was dying," and then I sent him a link to my post that I just put up. Not even an hour ago and the post if you missed it, you must read it. Can somebody get the link to that post, if you're on your laptop computer. Get the URL to that blog so people can read it. It's called you snivelling, whiny, little bitch. And you're going to read it and you're going to enjoy it. I'm rebelling against myself first and foremost, but I did initially put a picture up with that post that said Fuck you, I won't do what you told me. Then I took it down and changed the photo because I didn't want my team to think I was saying fuck you to them, but really I meant it to my own higher self. Still I have just screwed up the entire plan for the, possibly year. But fuck it, we'll do all that anyway. We'll do the faith and peppers thing because it's freaking amazing, but right now I've got some limbs to tear. Limb from limb. Oops, I just punched the roof of the taxi. Lily Bangkok knows what's up. She was on it like white on rice. It was crazy, the whole... I don't even know what that expression means, it just popped of me. What does that even mean? I think I got it from a movie. You can see that I'm coming back to life. I'm like one of those little dehydrated towels, you know when you check in at an amazing high end hotels in Bali, they give you one of those small dehydrated towels and then you put it in some water and it comes to life. That's basically what I am. Declan says I'm worth rebelling against. Thank you, I rebel against myself anytime I like. It's been festering away at me. It's been quite a disgusting internal situation, hence your whiny, snivelling little bitch. Of course, as usual, I didn't even notice that it was happening and it's just, like it is an old freaking pattern that I've done several times. Which I got somewhat triggered by when I was called out on that the other day. On a joint livestream and somebody said to me, you've already done this same story three times before. Can you just get some new material or something? Which I thought was a little bit cheeky, but true. I always appreciate getting called out, only if it's true and by the right person, but I was still kind of shitty about it. Now I'm just having to own it and that's the truth of the matter. Then I got called out again, two days ago, by the same person. I was like fucking hell, you're right and I knew that. So I probably shut down all my Facebook ads and all plans and all of everything and I've just been sitting in my own disgusting-ness. I'm not going to say enjoying it, but I've been marinating, marinating in my own disgusting-ness because I fucking deserve to. I needed to feel it. There's a field, enjoy the field. Blake what's up? I have a lot of respect for you Blake. Everybody should follow Blake. Leah said I thought you said tampon instead of towel. No? Not at all, but it's actually kind of the same analogy. Alright, so I've just been marinating in my own disgusting-ness. I've been sitting in it. It's actually kind of true in a physical sense as well because in Bali most of the time, you're just covered in black sweat and who knows what else. So, it's true in many senses of the word that I meant my own emotional, what's a good word for it? Snivel-ery? Wussiness? Diluted horror, diluted horror. That's how I feel about it. Marinating in my own diluted horror. It's not been fun to marinate in. It's been quite vial up in here. I've still had a lot of fun mind you, I've had a fabulous night out last night, been to many fantastic things. But I've been conscious and aware of what a sell out I've been being. I've had so many good titles through me for live streams and blogs. I'm going to write about myself being a sell out tomorrow. I'm going to get some memes, I'm going to make some freaking memes. Okay here's a rice field, we should all look at it. Check it out. This is where I use to live, look. Right down that street, down there. Actually it was over a fence and you had to climb over a fence and down a hill and roll down it sideways, but I lived there anyway for a year. I had many coffees, possibly several too many, but it was required. I had to kick myself in the iron ass, I had to take my own advice. You know, sometimes I'll say to my clients, look you need to slap yourself on each cheek and pour a backard of cold water on your head and remember who the fuck you are. That's relatively what I had to do today. I'm going to get you the comment now because I'm not explaining it very well, but I think you get the idea which is that we should all just take a moment to pause at the horror show that has been the Katrina Ruth show for the past week and a half. I guess it's not too bad to have only lost your way for like 10 days, and now I can return to being a badass. But it's been a horrible 10 days, hasn't it? Hasn't it been disgusting? Have you noticed? Who's noticed? I just can't even understand what was going through this crazy head of mine. I really can't bear the sight of myself, except that I fully love and accept myself. So I am quite happy about the whole situation, regardless. Because I'll come back stronger, and more powerful and more excited than ever. Wait right there, wait one second, don't go anywhere. Okay, I'm back. I'm going to see if I could put a...what's happening here, it's very bumpy on this road. Okay, I just left a comment. You can read that comment at your own leisure, it's quite long. But it tells you about the new programme. You're going to need to jump on it quickly. I was so behind..because there's a top 10 bonus that's going on with me this week. But that's the whole sales page right there, deal with it. It's also in the P.S of the blog that I just posted. If you need a bit of a slap up the ass? Cheek? In the ass? Wherever you like your slaps, you're going to want to go and read that blog post. What it's about really, is we're so...Okay this is a cool wall, did you see that wall with the girl on it? Man, I need to come back and have a photo shoot on that wall one day. You were the first one Lily, actually I don't know because I didn't log in and look at my PayPal or anything. But you were the one that commented so you might have been the first one. I don't know if anybody else just bought it on the site and didn't bother commenting. But I didn't have a sales page. I don't even have an infusion self link. I went old school. I still know how to do things old school on the internet before I had staff. So sneakily logged into my own PayPal which I never do and which I probably don't even think I know how to get into anymore. I made my own subscription links to my own payment buttons and then I just put the mother fucking PayPal button right here on the internet. Like a crazy person, I know, I'm out of control. Somebody needs to control me. It's perfect timing because I'm going out and I'm going to be totally out of control, and do all the things...okay here we are. We've arrived. I'm going to keep going, I'm going to get the money out though, for this taxi driver who's probably what on earth on up to. Britta, I know you'll appreciate the title of that blog, I saw you press like on that blog. I felt you'd be quite happy with it because I feel like you are somebody like me that enjoys a good ass kicking. Particularly when it comes from their own self. I wrote it for you from my high self for your high self which is really roughly the same thing because we are one in the same person. Let me put my air pods in so that not everybody else to listen to me while I stand out this front of a beach club and shout out [inaudible 00:11:46]. So we're definitely going to go meet some new fabulous people tonight when she gets here. We're going to do many interesting things. Thank you. Alright, thank you. Good, how are you? Good thank you. Alright, alright, I'm just waiting for my friend. Alright, so, look at the lighting. I look amazing. This is way better. I should hang out here all the time. Alright, where should I sit? Let me just perch over here. Look at all these scooters, it's scooter central. Why don't I do more live streams outdoor in Bali? Okay, so you gotta read that, Britta you're going to be in there anyway, you've got to read that...Okay, have you seen my tattoos down my side? Because I feel like this tops highlight them really well. Okay, my phone just told me I was in rotate. Rotate, I'm trying to rotate. Here you go. It's just a good view with that top on. Okay, am I making any sense. Have I said anything that relatively noteworthy or interesting? I'm going to make a meme and the meme is going to be "Don't you hate it when you accidentally wake up boring as fuck" or something like that. Don't steal my meme you meme fanatics because that meme is coming tomorrow. I'm going to kick so much fucking ass this week that's it's going to be ridiculous. So you needed that blog, everybody needed that blog. Somebody needs to get the blog link and put the link here into the comment-y thingy thing. Anyway, so then what happened? I'm just going to drop Patrick in it, why not? He messaged me and said he didn't really care for my Facebook ads, that's what happened. This is probably where it all started. It started before that, okay? It started like...it started the second I said yes to thinking that a goal could rel...like, at all remotely be about money or about, what's it called, growth and numbers. Growth about tearing shit up on the internet and all the things that I already said in the blog which I probably don't need to report about [inaudible 00:13:47] anyway. That's when it all started. I got myself side tracked by the idea that I might do things purely for growth reasons. Sometimes, I just forget and then I run the same fucking script [inaudible 00:13:59]. Update my hard drive, I don't know what's going on in this whole software programme. It's quite disgusting. We already talked about that and about how disgusting it is. Lily you're a legend, thank you. Everybody read that blog that Lily just popped in, or it's just like the post that's underneath this livestream when you jump off. So it was festering away, I've been feeling like a clipped, like a clipped fucking eagle. Like an eagle with it's wings clipped, and I get angry. I'm like an angry eagle with it's wings clipped. I'm surprised more people haven't had their heads...aw thank you Claire...I'm surprised more people haven't had their heads ripped off by me, but probably because I've been in Bali, I've been quite happy. So it was festering away, and I was marinating in my own disgusting-ness. At the same time I was having just the best time ever in Bali because I always do. And becoming super Bali flow and super flow, and then I was just underneath it I like, just shitty and I'm going to punch a bitch soon and it's probably going to be my own higher self. Meanwhile, I was trying to tell myself some pretty little story about whatever, so then, yeah that was what was going on. Then I stopped selling. Like 10 days ago because I was bored with everything. I was bored with the whole entire internet, every single one of you. I'm sorry to tell you, but when you're bored with other people it's because you're bored with yourself, so. I stopped selling. I don't think in 12 years online that I've ever had a 10 day period of not selling, it's unheard of, it's unseemly, it's unbecoming, it's uncouth, and it should not happen. It's just been a horrible thing to behold, to be quite honest with you. But at the same time it's been an amazing, powerful reminder. Amazing, powerful reminder. Amazing, powerful reminder. [inaudible 00:15:35] Amazing, powerful reminder. And I'm so grateful now, I'm so excited to smack myself down [inaudible 00:15:42] myself up. Oh wait, and everyone joining breaktheinternet.com as well. Don't go to the URL. I have to keep explaining that. I don't know why I like to complicate things, but it's just funny. The sell is in the comment that's not pinned, but it's at the bottom of the blog as well. There is no sales page, you got to go...I just went old school, I put a PayPal straight on Facebook. I'm such a rule breaker. Anyway, all that was happening and then, yes, we're going to drop Patrick in because then he messages me and he's like Listen. He didn't say it exactly like this but this is relatively the tone. I don't really care for your Facebook ads, is what he said. He didn't care for them at all. He said it in a more subtle way than that, but I was like "tell me more, tell me exactly what you mean, tell me right now." I was very demanding about it. My night is going to be so epic Shannon. We're going to tear shit up. And my friend who is coming down to meet me is quite the irreverent one as well, so it's going to be, going to be interesting. We're on a mission, a mission to have all the fun, it's going to happen. I already warmed up for it last night, so tonight is getting even bigger night. Yes, he said that in an even nicer way. Sort of nicer? It was nice...it was to the point, it was direct. It had to be said, and I was like, "Whoa, people don't call me out on shit, but okay you do and you can and you're probably like the only person who can." And I was curious, I was straight away curious because he was very subtle about what he said. And I knew exactly what he meant though straight away. Because I was like, "I god damn knew it". And so I just wrote back and I was like "fuck" and by "fuck" I meant "I know exactly what you mean". And then I said, "tell me more" and then, yeah, basically I just had to confess and admit that I am the most boring person on the entire internet. It's quite sad to admit, but it's just the truth of the matter. Alright I'm looking around to see if I see anybody that I know. Not yet. I think I'm fairly noticeable though just perching up here and people are going to see...Lily's just dropping links. She should be on commission. She's just dropping freaking PayPal links. You can read the whole description as well, or you can just do what Lily did and click the PayPal link and buy things without reading anything. Yeah, so we basically established that I'm the most boring person on the internet. And I don't know how I've gotten away with everything that I have gotten away up until now while being so lame. I love and fully accept myself anyway because, just like if I gain a bit of weight, I still love myself. It's not self love if I gain weight, and it's also not self love based on if I become the most boring fucking person on the internet. Which is exactly what happened. But I will kick my own ass. Okay, I feel like why is she not here and should we go on a little hunt for her? Okay she did tell me to go in and secure a day bed and I haven't done that. I'm just meandering and lurking out the front. It is what it is. What else do I even need to tell you? I don't know, I'm like giving away my main content for tomorrow already. Don't you just hate it when wake up fucking boring, but I'll try to break it down for you a little more. I don't know where I'm going with this however [inaudible 00:18:46] tonight is just going to get lit up because I've got the energy that's coming through. It's going to keep exploding this fire inside of me. You know that I'm about to go into mad as fuck super flow now, right? So that's why I'm actually really grateful that I've turned boring because now I got angry at myself and like I said the first module of training is going to be called 'Get fucking angry'. So it's going to result in incredible content, incredible super flow. I'm going to reverse age even faster than I already have. I didn't need to write reverse age into the description of the other, I'm going to edit that in. So that's one of the things that you get, reverse ageing. And if you think I'm even remotely joking, then look at my skin. Look at this glow, I'm nearly 40. Well I'm 38, I'm nearly 39. So I'm not making it up. I'm just telling you the truth as I see it and as I create it and as I write it. So you will get the reverse ageing included, that's a free bonus. That's a free bonus for the first 10 people, thank you Greta, it's all the alignment. It's the alignment and my happiness. And that's even with the disgusting-ness of the past 7 days, mind you. Imagine how good I'm going to look by the end of this week. There's people literally right there while I'm saying this. [inaudible 00:20:00] a woman who also reverse ages because she's amazing as fuck and one of my bestest friends in the world since forever and a hundred years. Okay, what was I up to. So you're going to get a top 10 bonus, you get a 1 on 1 call with me. Top 20 bonus, you get the 1 on 1, no...if you're in the 10 you get the top 10...top 20 bonus you get 5 days of my journaling, that can be a little frightening for some people but it is what it is. Top everybody bonus, you get reverse ageing. I'm going to say the average will be 2-5 years in a 10 day period. And I'm not joking, okay? Whoops, maybe I am in trouble, I just got a WhatsApp that came at the top of my screen that said all of your Facebook ads have now been turned off, please advise when you're free to discuss. I was like “oh, shit”. Am I being watched? Technically I'm in charge of this company because it's my company and I created it, but when you have a team and you give them licence to do things, as a rebel without a cause, and I have many causes. You then naturally start to fill obliged to just rebel against your own team. Even though they're there to help and support you. But actually, actually what their role is obviously to help and support you, to be all that you are. And if I'm not being the craziest f- creator and breaking all the rules including my own rules and doing mad ridiculous shit on the internet, then nobody's ass is going to get paid in this business. That's the reality and do you know what else is going to happen? I'm going to tell you and it's probably going to upset you because it's directly about you. If that happens, my world my potential implode, I would never actually go this far. But let's just play it out and as a result of that, considering that I created this reality and it's my reality, all of you would disappear. And you would just be done, your characters would be eliminated, so actually I'm just sitting here, outside of the beach club, waiting for my friend, saving fucking lives. And I think you could send me a love heart shower for that. And also, I said an intention two days ago, okay I'm definitely getting high, I'm starting to trip. I never need anything because I just create the trip inside myself. Only two days ago, I said an intention that I was going to do a hilarious fuck life stream on the weekend and I forgot about that. It definitely didn't happen yesterday because I was being insanely boring, and just a disgusting sight to behold, like we've already discussed. And now I've just realised that I've slipped into performer, entertain mode. And their playing one of my top songs. Okay where is...where is she? She's still not here? Hang on, wait. No that's not her. Yes we've found a person. Okay I'm going to have to go. Would you like to appear on my live stream? It's been quite out of control. Alright, I've found somebody who's going to get up to all sorts of shenanigans with. Oh, yeah. This is the amazing Melissa Withers, and it's going to be crazy, if you, well, if you would have seen this live video, you would have seen that I was probably on a lot of shit. [laughter 00:23:16] and said a whole lot of shit is about to go down. So that's basically the entire story, we have to go. This many people we have to go and find a bed. Watch the replay, read the comment, buy the thing. It's going to sell out. Exactly what she said. Alright, yes. Bye bye. Good luck.

Run Your Contracting Business with Less Stress More Success He created the systems in his family business that allowed him to sell his shares of the family business at the young age of  50 to pursue a consulting career to other business owners create less stress and more success Out of that process, he wrote a book called Run your Contracting Business with Less Stress and More Success, the 7- Power Contractor. Al Levi he is a former heating air conditioning and electrical guy had his own business and at work for 25 years and his family business created systems and now actually had put his stuff in place to enable him to sell his share of his business to his brothers and retire before the age of 50. And of course, in return I thought is giving up some things that he doesn’t want to do to. So now Al has written a book and he does consulting and helps other companies become successful through the systems in the manuals that he created for his company that gave him so early retirement. This is Dave Negri with Contractor Secret Weapon and today is another fine day in Florida. Sorry Sinos. How many of you guys are up in the winter and snow? Today, I have Al Levi with me and I'm excited to talk to him because he is a former heating air conditioning and electrical guy had his own business and at work for 25 years and his family business created systems and now actually had put his stuff in place to enable him to sell his share of his business to his brothers and retire before the age of 50. And of course, in return I thought is giving up some things that she doesn’t want to do to do some things that she does want to do. So now Al has written a book and he does consulting and helps other companies become successful through the systems in the manuals that he created for his company that gave him so so early retirement. He's probably working harder now, aren't you? Let me do it all right. I'm not working. Right. Contract as well. Appreciate that you know the life that I lived then before I was lucky. I was third generation in our company started 1936 and we also did plumbing by the way. Okay. So, it was 24/7 365 and I don't need to we just ran ahead. We literally have our shift on to cover those hours. There were real people there wasn't somebody up and come out. You know it was non-stop and it really was you know. Good news is I was making a lot of money. The bad news it was killing me. So, I had to change the thing and that was what this is all about. You know I created with help from other reasons seven power concepts which is the second things to run a company. My dad did raise myself and my brother was the time we were young teenagers. To be in business meetings. So, we got a big education from him and the nature of it is that we also were surreal entrepreneurs. Beyond that we had a cable, liquor stores. We had an ice cream shop. We had to multi state real estate, the main golden goose was always the contracting business and that was really about the seven thing which was Planning, Operations, Staffing, Sales, Sales Coaching, Marketing, Finance. All those are the seven things because Dave, contractors it feels like there's a million things. We have to handle, a million of things we have to do. And I know what that chaos is about, but it really boils down to seven things I just rattled off and what I changed to be able to make those things systematic the fact that I had all these people that were now in power to help to me to themselves and most importantly to our customers and even better way than we have been That's really what was the secret. And so, I decided because I hope you appreciate the story as well as most contractors. We are able to do it in seven hours you know because they do seven hours in working hours trying to tell everybody this is how long would you say a good employer will give you notice that are leaving two weeks maybe a week. I said you know in my case sometimes my employees would just leave the keys on the desk and I'd have to go and find it you know. In all the places. It's how to get my brothers and my dad three years notice that I'd be leaving. Three years, that was, let it wash over you for a second. So, you would know what kind of fleener I am. Because that was not believable right. I really just wrote all the system that we put in place. Letting out all the ability to create people who are willing with no skills and the people that are willing with skills and that all positions, I don't mean tech position. But inside the office and all the other kinds of things right. The backbone of that is the operations manuals. That's a one of a kind thing that I spent one year of my life. I didn't take all three years while I was doing all my other jobs. I sat with everybody when he walked out without warning calls and stuff I would make notes to create an outline. Of all the things it took all the tests that our company had grown to give and to create that. That backbone I hired a writer. Initially, I gave Dan Callahan to help me run meetings. And we spent you know about a hundred thousand dollars in 1996 money. Now got hundreds of hours putting these manuals in. So, their policies and procedures were plain English. We got fired from the store from our staff from all these meetings and we were union shocked by the way, so, if everybody is listening you would say well that's fine it won't work either. My answer is I was a New York shop at a union shop and trust me. I've been all over this country for the last 15 years doing one on one consulting with people. Now I'm switching that up to where I'm going to be running these program workshop where people can pick a manual with me and show them how to do the same thing at their own company So that's really the essence of what it means that I, I've been doing. But there's a lot more to it. And I want to be careful about how much I live in here because I know you're in the lead but I've got some exciting things to share about how you can really transform your company to make it in a place that's attractive to come to work and that you surround yourself with people that you want to be with. It's a world of difference. It's what you were talking about creating your system before putting books together and working in a union shop of course you know the 90's and so on and I'm thinking about what about today. You know I hear so many stories of people trying to attract the new generation the millennials. And getting to go to work for their contracting company. And there are just some are just having a horrendous time and when you get to that I can assure I also have a franchise. I talked to my partners. He's actually a client I've been to back in 2005. You haven't been to tell us story. Absolutely. OK so in 2005. I'm going to my plumbing meeting and cooling. I got some frame worker or at least I thought I I’d had done framework, you know plunger, you know big kind of steak and the rest of it is like oh, and I have to tell you and finally this is not telling a story I can't get notice from. So, I get a call from these guys in Philly.  Two young brothers. They're in their 30's and, all they do is just framework and they're telling me that and they do you know whatever specialized framework and I'm thinking 'yeah right'. So, it's all the job that there is you might be snap in picking up in plumbing, heating and air conditioning and electrical.  And so, I get down there and walk around and dirty and you know what I mean disorganized. Pretty much what I expected. But then I sit down and give adjacent to create magics for. And I get an education. I had no idea your client's framework and the way they do it with water Dave, camera and stuff. Was just incredible to me. Wow. That's the joy of this whole thing. And so, the funny part of this is he was a missionary, say's to me because you know how this is this is only like two months into the process they get the picture. He says to me I would love to license the franchises and look at this in a snarky New York attitude and go "franchise this?" How about if we just get the guys dressed to go to meetings clean up the trucks. Obviously, here's the big story here.  Two to three years we had got everything. We had got to the point where we let training centers and built new pipes, and meetings guys dressed in this profession and working in white shirts all day long and doing all these things and so I'm not a contractor. So, a lot of I said you know were all good and then I go off with my good friend. Ellen Moore is the model of Ben Franklin plumbing. And so, she finishes over there. She and I had worked together for many years. She says to me "Al, do you know any clients that might be interested with franchising?" And I said "Sure do Olives. I thought you worked with them. Zoomed trained. Not really. So, I called up Jim and I go "Jim, remember you said you have that desire to own the franchise, you still interested? And there's a pause and Jim say "I've been waiting by the phone all this time for you to call." The rest as they say is history. Get a franchise down in Orlando and up in New England and down the Long Island. Me old stomping grounds. That's really great, but you know what's so great about them. They are living breathing the manual staffing systems that are put in place. All of the other things the weekly meetings working on the top five everything that I've create is living breathing. That brings me back to this because that will have nothing but young guys like the breed young people who want to build a career or not have a job who's not kids and motivated young kids. They're not motivated because we as leaders have failed. We are not heeding a vision of where they can go in this company. And they want more. And it's not who everybody thinks this is new. So, I'll take you back if you will when I arrive at my job and like I told my dad well why don't you guys can do this, and why aren't they do this and my dad says sorry you weren't born 30 years your younger, 30 years earlier because maybe you could have done that. But nobody is doing anything around here unless they know what happens to them in a good way. What happens in a bad way. Yeah. That was an education I've got early on. So, here's the rest of that story. The guys from the Vietnam era were just ahead of me when I arrived. Phil Atami was one of them and he's talking to me because we're training new candidates back in the 90s. And he's telling me these kids have no work ethics. They just want to play around. They're not that interested in this. And I said, Tommy it's funny because the old guys used to say the same thing about you and the rest of us. As for the essence of this is Zoom is one example of all the companies that I work with today that take good young millennials and show them there's a career path. And if you don't have a great organization chart that shows where am I today and where can I go tomorrow? You're not going to sign the equal your shoes to your door. But your heart and soul are not there. Alright. What you must have is heart and soul. So that's another way. And from what I'm hearing you say is what you're doing is you're creating a team that's buying in to the whole company and the future of the company it's not a job. And for themselves, that this is where I want to be. Right. My dad had a great line. Employees boat with their feet. Every day they decide that you can be here or be elsewhere. That's a great way to see it. Wow, that is really awesome. So, this is just amazing. And a lot of it had to come with you creating the manuals from the business that you're in with your dad and creating that whole process and how wow this is just how long does it take like for you to walk into company NSA and a decent size company. I don't know 10 ,12 employees and I'm sure most of the time when you walk into something like that they're pretty much flying by the seat of their pants and its chaos. How long does it take to create for them to help them correct that system to get it up and viable in place? You're going to tweak it on a regular basis. Well there are two types of companies that I've worked with over the 15 years doing this job now, and they're one of two flavors. One is that they are fast growers and it's nothing but chaos. Every moment of the day. So, they got this great house built on a really bad foundation or no foundation at all. Right. And my job was to come in Dave, and put a foundation under that company so that control can come back in and stop chaos. Every moment you go there's a plan of we work plan. So, first thing I with planning power which is teaching them how to get a master project list the top 30 and work on the top five which make all the difference. One of the top five is always the operations manager which are my managers and they're pretty much 90-95 percent of the way that they need to have them. Because they make adjustments to better fit their company. And I work with blue frame and photographers and believe or not it's still pretty much the same. Yeah pretty much. Pretty much the same. Yeah getting reform just back to the rest of it and so I fix those areas right around the start. Then we move want to staffing it. That's what needs to be done which is, I teach them how to leverage the manuals and have one of a kind building blocks for training people all the way up apprentice, taxicab field supervisor and all. And so, it's also hands on training center. I built hands on training centers for ever and now I've been all over the place building training centers everywhere we go it's not the training center alone about what we're talking about hands on where you can create the problems that people will encounter in the field of your employees as far as setting faucet showers. If it's it's heating, it's warm their or colder, whatever.  It's working breathing and you can simulate all the problems. So by the time they get in the field, attack can do the three most important things she's talked to customers, communicate and today that being said, was it the customer's best interest?  in what I call ethical self. No one will ever hear that I want you to sell anybody anything that's not in your best interest. Right. But you are here to serve them. You are the one that's the expert and it's your job to take the blinders off and look around. Not just think fix the handle of the toilet have along the toilet that you know is 30 years old and we are back from our fix in a flap or not. You know you don't change air filter out when you know you really need to change the unit out. Those are the things that you know we train right from the beginning because ultimately that serves people best. You know the fact the matter most couples these they've told got to go to work and you have good high paying job. Nobody wants to take home more time to go hang out with your plumbing heating pool electric guy. So you've got to fix it right the first time. And a lot of times that means selling the right things and doing the right repairs. So sales operation technical are the skills that you must train. That's a where good sale system which is another thing that really helps to ratchet it off. But at the backbone of it all it's really the manuals. The operations man buying policy procedures and that's the way I'm doing it today is still your operating manual. First of all, that's where people will be doing, kind of what I used to do when I came to their shop. So the answer to your question is; the fastest anybody run with all of my programs today and not everybody goes all through the programs. Then what. I've had so many do it in 18 months and they've gone from 9 million to 33 million in sales that just because of me because they were great guys. They just need to get the foundation right. I've had guys typically like the Zoom guys I was talking about thought we had done everything in three years because it's not how fast you show progress out. It's how well you get them. So I don't just come there as and pull up and changed my residence and hang out with you. You got to be able to do these things and get each one of them because they build on each other the good way to see this. Imagine a pyramid the higher and bigger you want that pyramid the longer you want to last. That starts at the bottom not at the top. That's right, the better the base and the selling power concepts are, it blocks. Better those block form which is planning which means working on right thing at the right time, the right way. That's what planning power is. Operating power is having the manuals that handle 80 percent. Nothing's gonna cover 100 percent of what goes on. But handling the 80% of the policies and procedures of each of the boxes on your old chart, the things that go on. So, it's replica and people can be empowered from the day they show up. And then there's Staffing which is again building you know young willing people into skilled willing people and giving them a career path. And that its Sales, have your sales system for both techs and also or ticket sales people. And if you're in a commercial like that was what I called Commercial sales agents the person who goes to order to pick places open up accounts keep them happy and keep them buying from you. Which is critical so there's sales process for that. That's another block. Sales Coaching, which is coaching the right things and you get the right rewards and they win. But ultimately always the customer first wins. Right. Marketing which is what you're seeking is a contractor is right about a call from the right customer at the right time. The three rights of Mark and so we beyond that is Financial which is you know you can do all that off and if you don't charge and if you're not careful about your expenses it doesn't matter anything else, you won't be in business. Yeah it's called The Leaky Bucket Syndrome. Yeah exactly right. And sometimes, you're lucky it was just The Leaky Bucket is exploded. What are you.  Yeah yeah I've never heard that one but yeah when I heard one no one guy "Some days you're the bug again. Some days your the windshield". It's a country song. Yes. I love that one. Yeah he was a plumbing contractor. But that was kind of funny. So how did you come up with the idea here. Have you booked. I actually when I changed for me you know it's hard to remember when you make a change. You're in the midst of craziness. Yeah. You know my kind of day was so I could wake up at 5 a.m. get back home in 2 am and get my three hours of sleep. I always have always really love sleeping because the phone next to my head was going to ring. Yeah from the guys who are on the call shift that were stuck yeah. I was mad as heck at them for calling and waking me up Sure. But, he it was needed. That's the awful truth of being an owner. I never gave them enough information. I never documented it. They were in a position where they had to call. Yeah. And it was really kind of crazy when my brother, Richie, and I rode up the manual with them we defied you know. Do these three thing before you call Richie. And, 50% of the calls went away. Yeah I was doing in class education class one day and the guy was a remodeling contractor and his guys were calm all the time. Lucky for him it was just normal business hours so it wasn't like 24/7 like yours was. But he'd finally get to the point he goes what would you do if I wasn't there. But no, I want you to think about. Give me the answer What would You do if I wasn't there. He said you know it's if you ask me that question enough times they come up with the answer. I agree. And it actually in seminars that I teach about how I train a stepping power agent is. If you ask a question and you answer it on your own. Why should I think right? You may ask the question shut up and let them. Even if they guessed wrong. Give me a call because they have the guts to speak up right. And you treat I like that. I think that's great. That's a really good first step. Yeah it was just so then. Next time you about these three or four times before you call me. he said he tends closedown. He said I got some but he said it was nowhere near what I got before then. And it's like you said it's just it's goes back to the training. Yes. And part of that thing now is that we're going to speak to a deeper level issue. So why didn't I share all this information. Why didn't I do all of this stuff. Was the question at all? Yeah. One day this fellow, I was talking about Dan Callahan, he was an industry giant and he didn't go as well as everything else. I was one of the lucky guys that he actually rode in my truck and he's in my truck. I know the same thing but I always read my pages go at all. My friend Dan looks over at me, while I'm driving and he goes "You think that's normal, don't you?". And I stopped for one second and I go "Yeah I do" and then i said "I hate it." And then one second later I said "But I'm really indispensable." And, I just popped out. And that was it. We as owners, first of all what made as great is what sabotages us. Right. Great text, so we were great at whatever that thing was, and so with the the rest of it. Nobody else can do the job as well as us. What you're not saying is untrue but you really can't have people I'm certain but you really can't have people you can't group because you automatically get a lid on the pot and you can't you can't have business run run without you. And you can have vacation. You can't get sick. You have to be on target. All of them. Yeah yeah. Unless you are willing to be in the base. So here are the three syndrome that I finally pointed the finger back at me. So are you ready. Yeah, I like being a rescuer. I like running to the rescue. OK. And I like coming in and be able to you know to pull out that thing. I like being the fire. What I didn't realize is I also was hoping to set the fires that I could put out that way. Here's the last one. You know coming from New York this one will make sense. I like being the guru. Seems right now we're renting. Dave, you don't know how to do that? Really? You know what? I know, would you like to know. Because I'll be happy to share it with you. I was I was operating and when I witness the contractors I worked with over the year they to their credit finally go yeah, I get it. And that is what you have to deal with first.  Because even with quick manuals, even with the training centers and everything else that you can do on the marketing systems because every one of these things are a system. If you're not willing to give up those three identities you are automatically sabotaging everybody who's trying to help you. That's that's. Say that again because that's profound. If you are not willing to give up being a rescue or a fireman guru like I was you are automatically sabotaging those who are there to help you or anybody who will arrive. You know. Wow. That was a big Aha moment. It was a big aha moment and I thank my friend for sticking the truth mirror in my face. Yeah. Wow that's it's amazing that that's you know that's one thing in two set. We are in our own businesses or so in the weeds we can't see what's going on and it takes you know someone like you or you know someone to come along and say like your friend did he could see beyond the weeds because he wasn't in the depths of it. I like that analogy. It's really important for that. And you know even to this day Elle Agror who's the one I was mentioning before she has a consulting business in dozen, and we worked together. She also in the branch with me. We had a meeting where she an I know her sister Ellen Gayle in Ellewood she's H.D. and we meet and we look at each other's business even though we talk to each other all the time. That meeting is all about you know looking at things we haven't got every time we have that meeting every year all three of us. Our business grows and gets better. To this day after all these years. Wow that's pretty amazing. If she can have someone that would help you you know that you could go to a lot of times most of us are afraid to unravel the thing before us because so few will get ridiculed. It's dealing with people who are like minded and think alike and want the best interest for you. Put that to can do that. You know it's interesting when you mentioned that when they think about it when you go to the doctor for your health care check-up or you need. When you're not in your clothes off it out at the end of it. It's the same thing with your business which is you can't see it. And I'll give you guys. Listen to this quote I can see it. Here's another. How many times have you got to another company that you don't know. And by the time you walk through door and spend 30 minutes and you know what's broken. Yeah that's good. Why is that. Why is that. Because you're not emotionally invested in it and that's why it's so hard for any individual to do it all on your own. To think that you can see your own business the way you need to. And that's why there is outside people that you know they're the doctors. That's really what it is. Right. I know that you do a lot of consulting and if someone wanted to learn your 7 signatures or your power your signature or seven power contractor system, how do they get a hold of you? How do they reach you? Oh, the best thing they could do is to go to my website which is www.7powercontractor.com . And there's two things, there's a, and you'll see plenty of videos and testimonials from clients. Not because I needed for my ego but I know you need to hear from other people that it's been done right. I don't do one to one consulting like I did before. What I'm doing now is you have two things. When it comes to me is One you can go there to the shop and but this book that's 7 power Contractor System. There's an e-book $9.99. . Link on the website. I wrote it, and I made it short for a reason, for who are incredibly busy I'm asking you for more hours and if you're a quick reader two hour of your life. OK. Because it changed my life and it will change your life. Not because I wrote it and I had a good editor that helped me do it. We really worked hard to make it less. It's easy to make it fat. It's way hard to make it thin and effective. I know it's amazing isn't it. Yes. I created a 39 second video. And that's what I call that thirty-nine second video. It took me two hours to create it. Oh yeah. I know that. I know that. Exactly. And the other thing is I am feeling starting It's really the best thing that you can do to get the systems in place because without it you're going to be stuck in a. You know it's because of trying to write it on your own. If you could take your chances of getting it in the right way and getting buying. I've been up the mountain. What I see myself is a trivial guy. Yeah and you've done it. You know what it takes and I think that for the most part most people are. All right let me buy fill in the blanks and we'll go from there. Well you know to a certain point. You always have to put in you know what's apropos to what's your complete system is. But for the most part it's you know it's cutting time out is what it's doing.  The military cannot possibly know what are the books that they're holding out and more that we spoke about way back when they told me you got to read this book, and it was in the 90's it was Michael Gerber's E-Myth. Yeah that book told me why things weren't working and what to do. He didn't tell me how, but it was the first time that I heard that you go if you're only working in the business and never working on it nothing is going to change. And that was what I set about in creating this system. Now that really the catalyst for the manuals that you describe this hotel that work like all automatically and he said that's where I want my business be. Right. So that's what I set off to do. So, it was one of those books that really changed me. That's really kind of the essence of it but it wasn't out there so I had to create it. And the good news is I hired somebody to help me and its way better than it was 15 years ago. What I left on was it not those it was on a thousand dollars all the hours we paid all of that back in two years. In my company. Oh, I'm sure just in two years. Yeah. That's amazing. So whole activity then will call backs, insurance claims. All of the things are now getting better. So, we started to build on top of it with the organizations and better meetings a lot with things that go into it. But that's really kind of back bone essential that you want. Cool. That's awesome. This has really been awesome. I think we're going to put all of your contact information on our Web page when you want to write off. Must have been great. It was really fun talking with you about everything and will look forward to getting you back. You can a copy of his book click here  to go to his website  https://www.appleseedbusiness.com/ You can contact Al https://www.appleseedbusiness.com/contact/ Phone: 480-205-5164 Fax: 212-202-6275 al@appleseedbusiness.com There are so many ways to do almost free marketing you just have to think about it or you could just go to the web site and pick up the free download.   4 Hot Marketing Strategies That Can Flood Your Business with Customers   If you have a story to tell and would like to be a guest on this podcast email my assistant Shell at Shell@contractorssecretweapon.com   and she will send you our guest sheet.       Our sponsors   Would you like your phone to ring more with qualified buyers people looking to buy now? Then let’s make that happen. Best Home Services Leads is dedicated to making your phone ring with qualified buyers wanting to buy now. Go to and fill out the form to get more information.       http://contractorssecretweapon.com/money   How about 100 free postcards sent out to your best prospective customers. Radius Bomb sends out hyper targeted, laser focused postcards using a map while sitting in your under ware at your kitchen table then go to http://contractorssecretweapon.com/radiusbomb   Painting Contractors, get up to a 24% better response rate just for having the right memorable telephone number 1-800-PRO-PAINTER.Check out your area before someone beats you to it and it’s not available. https://www.1800propainter.com/  

It's been ten long episodes in the making, but the promised day has finally come! After weeks of saying we'd get around to it, we finally read Tokyo Ghoul! Well, okay, we didn't read the whole thing. I got through about half of it and Colton only read the first volume. So yeah, I know it might not exactly be what you were expecting or wanted, but the reality is we put everything into making this episode. We didn't try to kickstart it, or set up a Patreon for extra money. We put it all in. So, for now, this is what you hear and this is what you get, for the Manga Mavericks podcast. But, again, we hope that if this is well received, there'll be follow-ups. Because I'll tell you what, I'm not getting my Tokyo Ghoul-podcasting fill. And at the end of the day, even if it's not perfect, it's better than nothing. Besides, listening to this episode will definitely be better time spent than playing Mighty No. 9, and it didn't even cost you a dime (or however much money people wasted backed on that crap)! But seriously, this is a good episode. So good that we had to cut out a 20+ minute rant discussion on when Nisekoi will end for the sake of time! If we had to take out something THAT juicy, then exactly what mouthwatering morsels of manga chatter have we keep in? Join your titular mavericks Colton and Sid as we salivate over a Tokyo Restaurant serving Tonio's full course from Diamond is Unbreakable, speculate on a potential live-action Gintama theatrical film. celebrate Kochikame returning to japanese airwaves with a new tv anime, and accentuate that we're not filthy perverts while discussing the Legend of the Overfiend kickstarter! Awaiting at the end of it all is, of course, the pièce de résistance, our Tokyo Ghoul discussion! Did we like this broken down, broken-down world, or did we laugh without seeing a thing? There's only one way to find out, so dig in! Enjoy the show, and follow us on twitter at @sniperking323 and @lumranmayasha. If there’s something you want to ask that’s too big to tweet, tell us, oh tell us, the way it works with a line in the comments below, or e-mail us at mangamavericks@gmail.com! Thanks for listening!

Today we continue our series examining the "one another's" of the Bible. Our focus this week is on the command to forgive one another and we'll be using Paul's instructions in Ephesians 4:32 as our primary text. It goes without saying that you will be hurt in life, and often the people who cause the most significant hurts in our lives are those who are closest to us. People do and say things, that cause hurt. Sometimes intentionally, other times unintentionally. Regardless of their motive - the end result is the same: hurt. One of the greatest skills we can develop in life is to learn how to deal with these hurts in a healthy way, because how you choose to deal with life's hurts will greatly influence the degree of joy, peace, and contentment you experience in life. You can choose resentment or forgiveness. Our natural human response is resentment - we want to hang onto the wrongs that have been done against us, we want the victims to pay, we want justice - we want to get even. But resentment will lead to bitterness and ultimately destroy us. On the other hand, when we choose forgiveness we are making the choice to let it go. We are giving up our right to exact revenge and justice. You may ask "why"? Why should I forgive the person who has hurt me so deeply? The Bible gives us three reasons: (a) Because God has forgiven me. (b) Because Resentment does not work. (c) Because I'll need forgiveness in the future. The forgiveness we are called to extend is only possible through Christ. I can forgive because Jesus has forgiven me. This is both the reason and the means of forgiveness. The word forgive means to release a person from an obligation or repaying a debt that's owed. It means to cancel or forgive a debt. Forgiveness is what we are called to do and who we are called to be. Forgiveness is part of who God is. It's why Jesus came. And it's what Christians do.

Today we continue our series examining the "one another's" of the Bible. Our focus this week is on the command to forgive one another and we'll be using Paul's instructions in Ephesians 4:32 as our primary text. It goes without saying that you will be hurt in life, and often the people who cause the most significant hurts in our lives are those who are closest to us. People do and say things, that cause hurt. Sometimes intentionally, other times unintentionally. Regardless of their motive - the end result is the same: hurt. One of the greatest skills we can develop in life is to learn how to deal with these hurts in a healthy way, because how you choose to deal with life's hurts will greatly influence the degree of joy, peace, and contentment you experience in life. You can choose resentment or forgiveness. Our natural human response is resentment - we want to hang onto the wrongs that have been done against us, we want the victims to pay, we want justice - we want to get even. But resentment will lead to bitterness and ultimately destroy us. On the other hand, when we choose forgiveness we are making the choice to let it go. We are giving up our right to exact revenge and justice. You may ask "why"? Why should I forgive the person who has hurt me so deeply? The Bible gives us three reasons: (a) Because God has forgiven me. (b) Because Resentment does not work. (c) Because I'll need forgiveness in the future. The forgiveness we are called to extend is only possible through Christ. I can forgive because Jesus has forgiven me. This is both the reason and the means of forgiveness. The word forgive means to release a person from an obligation or repaying a debt that's owed. It means to cancel or forgive a debt. Forgiveness is what we are called to do and who we are called to be. Forgiveness is part of who God is. It's why Jesus came. And it's what Christians do.