Podcasts about matt oh

TOPIC: Don Lemon sent over an astronomical wish list to Elon Musk during contract talks, LUANNE ENGLAND: "how to reconcile with father?", MATT OH: "question about father's rights/children", HARMONY AZ: "question about forgiving mother", SUPERCHATS

Eadweard Mybridge, a 19th century English photographer, was a pioneer in studying motion and capturing moving images.Mybridge was likely Autistic, exhibiting traits like monotropism, attention to detail, data gathering, and artistic integrity. He had intense interests like studying horse gaits and photographing motion.He invented the zoopraxiscope, which projected motion pictures and allowed him to study and capture animal and human movement in sequences of photos taken in quick succession. This led to the development of motion pictures and cinematography.Mybridge's big emotions led to him being at the center of his own true crime murder plot line, with a surprise twist ending!“He was defined as, quote, ‘impassive indifference and uncontrolled explosions of emotion,' because he went from being very matter-of-fact—as we tend to do—to being very passionate, also as we tend to do.” —MattIn his lifetime, Mybridge took hundreds of thousands of photographs, including many controversial nude studies to analyze motion, and published collections like Animal Locomotion.He led an adventurous life, traveling extensively to photograph in the American West and invented photographic techniques and equipment like a mobile darkroom.Angela: You know, like autistic people generally have like less money, on average, than neurotypical people. But if we just like got rid of money, and everybody could have anything they wanted, how much crazy s**t would autistic people be doing?Matt: Oh, God, yes.His work was influential on many later creations like stop-motion animation, the Matrix bullet time effect, and more. He brought a scientific approach to analyzing motion.Podcast hosts Matt and Angela discuss how his apparent "unmasking" after a near-fatal accident allowed him to fully pursue his interests without regard for social conventions. They tie his dedication and focus to Autistic traits. Join us as we dive into the extraordinary life of this Autistic celebrity.Do you love motion pictures? What do you love about them?* Eadweard Mybridge's wet plate collodion pictures* Ponies are Autistic* Eadweard biopic* Eadweard Muybridge Wikipedia pageRelated…Episode 41: Tim Burton is Autistic and Episode 04: Industrial Light & Magic Ready for a paradigm shift that empowers Autistics? Help spread the news!* TACP on Instagram* Find us on Apple podcasts and Spotify* Matt Lowry, LPP* Matt's social media: Autistic Connections Facebook Group* AngelaLauria.com and Difference Press* Angela's social media: Twitter and TikTok* TACP's Autism-affirming TeePublic merch shop This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autisticculturepodcast.com/subscribe

We continue the subject we talk about frequently, which is emotional currency and the ability to pick how we choose to spend this. How much do we want to invest? Sometimes we can get so wrapped up in an emotion that we forget that we're investing in all this life-sucking stuff. But when we do, and we say "zero," it's FABULOUS because we feel free, because we are free. We're energized. the fact that when we spend emotional currency like this, not only does it leave room for beauty in our lives, but in that moment and that realization of," I passed through it and that's kind of saying it's over. I refuse to invest anymore,"our life force comes back because we've gathered ourselves. The different parts of ourselves that were scattered in different directions outside of ourselves because we leaked our vital life force are now restored. We have pulled ourselves back together. Now we have the capacity that is able to make good friends and to BE a good friend. #GetYourselfTogether #HowToBounceBackFromABreakup #RealizeYourOwnPowerWhen we're upset, we're leaking "currency." When we pull ourselves together, we pull all of humanity together, with compassion and peaceful understanding.Support our podcast by telling others and leaving a review. Pick up a free copy of Fawn's workbook "The Ikigai of Friendship" here: https://www.ourfriendlyworldpodcast.com/ THANK YOU with LOVE! Get it Together, Get a Hold of Yourself ,Capacity Revisited Podcast - TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Welcome back everybody. Hello? [00:00:02] Matt: Hello. [00:00:03] Fawn: Hello, world. [00:00:04] Matt: Oh dear. [00:00:04] Fawn: Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in. Matt and I got into a discussion the other day. [00:00:10] Matt: Discussion. [00:00:12] Fawn: love is winning . And so Matt decided that we should argue with ourselves. And a while ago, long time ago, we were talking about currency, all kinds of currency within friendships, within relationships, just all of life.

Allen Welcome passive traders to another episode. Today, I have a big announcement. And I have a first for the podcast, which is really interesting. I'm going to tell you the first before we get into the announcement. The first is that for the first time we are having a husband and wife, team, actually, we're going to find out if they're a team or not. But they're both traders. And they're both doing well. And they've been doing it for a while. So I wanted to get their opinion on how trading works in a family how trading works in a relationship, how to not get on each other's toes. So I have today, Mr. And Mrs. Matt and Margaret Ambrosi. Welcome, guys, thank you for doing this. Matt Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Allen Now, the big announcement, we probably should have done it better and differently. But Matt is now full time as an option genius coach. So we are very happy to have Matt on board. And he's already made a big difference in several people's lives. He's getting more, more happy comments, or, you know, people coming together to have a wonderful he's doing he's getting more than I am. So I think I got the right person for the job. And if you if you see Matt, or you hear the voice, and it's kind of familiar, we did do an interview with Matt back in episode 110. So 110, and that he actually gave us a story of how he got started what he was doing. And at that point, his job, his role, or his, his goal of trading was mainly to replace his current income through trading options. So I think he's, he's come a long way since then, as a trader, and just emotionally and as a person. So, guys, welcome. And Matt, thank you again, for coming on board the team, it's been really awesome to work with you and to see you take the reins, and you know, it's only made the company stronger and better, and our customers are loving it. So they're really excited. Matt I really appreciate that Alan, you know, I couldn't be more excited. I mean, I have a real passion for this. And it's a real dream to, to do a job and and really fulfill that passion. So thank you. Allen Yep, yeah, I mean, you know, one of my mentors had told me he's like, you know, in your programs, you should have a lot more interaction with the, with the students. And I'm like, I don't have time for that. He goes, well, then you need to get a coach, we need to get some other coaches on board. And I'm like, Okay, where do I find these people? They're like, don't you have students? I'm like, yeah. You know, but they're all trying to retire. Like, they'll try to quit their jobs. He goes, No, I bet you there's some that are really good at teaching. They're really love people. And they would be happy to do this on a full time basis, or even like a part time basis, and just help other people. And I was like, huh, and I thought about that about and Matt was like almost one of the first people I thought of and I'm like, Hey, let me give him a call. And I'm sure he came out of the blue for you. And you were shocked. Matt So I mean, I really enjoy, I really enjoy helping people at the core of my being. And, you know, I just love seeing the light go off in people's minds when they see a trade and they see it work out and they see that everything's a possibility, just like it was for me. So I'm really excited to be part of it. Cool. And then Margaret a this question is for you. So he comes, he comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I've been working at Costco for I don't know, what, 1415 years or something. Yeah. And he's like, he's like, I just got this other job offer. I'm gonna What do you think? Yeah. Margaret There's a whole story. There's a whole nother story. When he got that call, because I mean, we were definitely both shocked. But I think what you just said reminded me of what a good coach Matt was before he even worked at Option Genius. Because when we we started at let's say, when we got married seven years ago, we we were both on the same page about being financially free. And what what does that look like? Matt was definitely more of a researcher in terms of he would read a book, he would, he would give it to me. And so I think we were on, we've been on board on the same page, what to do. And then when we found you, and started learning your methods, we both latched on to it. So when you caught him, I think I was just excited because I knew it was something he really wanted to do. I had already seen him in a coaching role with me and his mom and his sister of trying to like the backend stuff, right? The things that are the charts, the systems, getting your platform set up. Those are things that are challenging and takes a lot of time. And so I was like, I think I was super excited. I knew he could do it. I knew it'd be great at it. And so I just thank you for giving him the opportunity because it's really been wonderful for him to do this thing that he loves anyway. I mean, he was already before he worked for you, in the mornings before he would go to work. Its full time job was studying and learning. And so, yeah, it just was really exciting. Thank you for that. I guess we had the trust, right. The trust was already there. So. Allen Okay. Yeah, now he's doing wonderful. And, you know, he's gonna be trading at the hedge fund as well when that happened. So that's going to be exciting. So a whole new level. So awesome. Cool. All right. So let's get into you guys. All right, so the trading couple and it's not just I know for Matt, you know, he's not just a trading couple. He's got the whole trading family going on there. He told me that he and his wife and his mom and his sister all get together and have trade night. What is that? Matt So it just kind of started, you know, my, my parents live in South Carolina, we're in Georgia, and my sister is up in Massachusetts. And it was a good way. They were always interested in what I was doing. And they always wanted to learn what I was doing. So it just became natural that I would say, hey, let's just have a call. And we'll talk about it. And then I showed them how to, you know, do the platform, and you know, they had all their feelings about whether they're going to do it correctly. And all the all the fears, just like I had when I started, and I was like, Okay, well, we just started going through it. And we started meeting kind of regularly on Fridays. And it was usually Friday, like, nine 930 in the morning. And we'd meet for about an hour and we talk about it. And then it just kind of progressed and was like okay, let's do this next Friday, okay, let's do the next Friday, let's do the next Friday, next Friday, and then just became we'd call it trade top Fridays. And you know, and then started being like, if we miss one, you know, let's say my sister couldn't make it. She'd be upset, like, Oh, I gotta I gotta make it or my mother missed it, she would be upset. So we, we were there every day, you know, and then Margaret would come in here and there and it just kind of evolved. So it was really a really great experience. And then it kept us really connected. I mean, in ways that I wouldn't think you know.. Margaret And you get to learn other parts of your family members and their personalities that you didn't know before. Allen Mm hmm. I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, people's personality comes out when they're like, frustrated, or when they're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were saying that a little bit earlier that your mom kind of surprised you, you know, going all aggressive on you. Matt She still does. I mean, there's like, I'm just like, you know, she'll tell us like, Oh, she did something. And then she'll like, say to my sister, oh, I got out of this trade. She's like you did? What? How do you get out of that trade? You didn't tell me about it? And it's like, yeah, they're like, they go back and forth. But it's all in solid, good. You know? Margaret Yeah, once she has the parameters, then she, she'll get a little bit more risky that she said, a differentiated, she told us it's like she's at a different age where she feels like she can take a little different risk than we can. Yeah. So it makes it makes a difference. Matt That's interesting. It also goes back and forth. I mean, my sister, she put on a trade, she was getting into a new trade that we're doing. And then my mother was like, kind of hesitant about getting into it. And my sister just went ahead and did it. And then my mother's like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like hours later, she she's like, I'm like, what happened? She's like, Oh, I put a trade on. Like, because my sister went ahead and did it. So they kind of play off each other. So Allen that's cool. Because normally, it's the opposite. You know, it's like, the older you get, the more conservative is like, oh, no, I don't want to lose that or lose. The younger people take more risk, but over here are flipped. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. But that I love it, how you're using something to bond, you know. And it's so rare nowadays, especially everybody's spread out across the country. It's like, oh, yeah, we get together on Thanksgiving. Yeah. Okay. Great. You guys get together every week. That's I love it. That's, that's wonderful. Yeah. I think more families need to find something in common like that. And like trading? Yeah. I mean, because the way we do it, everybody can find their own little niche, you know, yeah. Everybody can be conservative or aggressive or whatever. And yeah, I love it. Cool. So, um, how did you guys get into trading? Matt Oh, well, I mean, it was always long term for me. So I was learning about long term investing through reading and then while we actually, Margaret yeah, since you were 29, he started investing. And then we went to one seminar together. And there was a man who was sitting next to us, and he said, uh, you could self manage your portfolio. And we looked at each other and we're like, never worry, That's too scary. It's too risky. We gotta leave that to the professionals. There's reason that people get paid money to do that. And he made it seem like it was no big deal at all. And I think he was he, yeah, that was a pivotal point. And then after that, We went to a couple other seminars together. And then I think the the really the one that we learned about options was three years ago. And at that one, we I had never even heard the term option. I didn't know what an option was. We went to go find out about long term investing and how to value stocks in order to know if it's a good purchase or not. And then at that seminar, we just sat back and because they showed us how to do an option, and and then after that we met found you and he because he was looking for people who did a similar strategy. And then it after we Yeah, so that's how we got into it. Matt Right. And they, they basically started this seminar off with an option. And we're like, Oh, I thought we were coming here to long term invest. And I didn't, you know, we didn't know anything, how options work. We're trying to figure out how it did right there. And then this guy's like, Oh, I just made $7,000. And you're like, show me how you're just like, whatever you just did, like you have my attention. How did you do that? And I was like, on a, I was possessed to figure it out. I mean, Margaret, she's smarter than I am. In some ways, yes, definitely. She was like, this is a funnel, like, marketing, marketing funnel and Margaret figure it all out. And thanks for just calm down. Matt It's just she sat back, I'll relax. And I was like, I'm trying to figure it out. And but we progressed. And, you know, it really opened the whole a whole new world, really. And then, you know, we met you. Margaret And it's just a progression to back up to because that's where we started trading with our family with his mom and sister. So after we learned that strategy, and we were all trading together, that's where the, the trade top Fridays came from. So that was kind of a cool thing that came from that. Allen Okay, so from the beginning, you guys were like, Okay, we're doing this together. It's not like, you know, because Margaret, you have your own company. And if anybody wants to know, she does great videography, and photos for real estate agents, and you guys are located where? Margaret Just north of Atlanta. Allen Just north of Atlanta. So if any realtors are out there. Margaret And I'm glad you mentioned that, because honestly, the reason I want to trade is because I am getting older. I've been a creative for 20 years, and the old body isn't getting any younger. So at some point, I will not be able to schlep video gear and photography gear around, and I want to have some home, what gives me the security and knowing that I can bring in my paycheck that I'm accustomed to it on my own. But we definitely talk about our strategies together. Allen Right, exactly. So, okay, so But you said like, okay, so he's working full time you have your business, but you guys still decided, hey, we're gonna go this road together, we're gonna learn together, we're gonna go the seminars together, we're gonna talk about it. And then do you guys trade in the same account together? Or is it separate? How does that work? Matt We kind of did in the beginning. And then we realized that it was best to have separate accounts, we do everything we talk about everything together. It's just I think that's really smart. Everyone's different. But I think for us, it works that we have separate accounts, because it kind of gives you the flexibility for the trading the fit your personality, and everyone's personalitie's different, you know, even though we're married, we're different personalities. So that reflects in that account, I think. Margaret And the cool part is, we both fund each other's accounts. So when there's money that we have to put into the account to get it started, we weren't going at an equal pace, if that makes sense. Matt Right. So like, for example, I would get a bonus from Costco, I'd split that bonus, put it into our account separately, she would get a bonus, she would put that money into our accounts, and then we're trading the strategies under those two accounts. Allen Okay, so do you have any joint money like a joint account? Margaret Not for not in a brokerage account? No. I mean, we're, we're each other's beneficiaries. But yeah, right. And I think part of that, too, Alan comes from me at I was not married for 36 years, and I am very customed to taking care of myself and producing my own income, and having my own money, you know, just to be quite frank about it. I want to make sure that I can take care of myself if anything ever happened to Matt, but we definitely we know what each other's logins are. We know what the money's in there. So that part's very open. It's not like they don't share the information. But I think that's a good point about having a different trading style because I am a little more aggressive than Matt is, and we learned that we didn't know that going in, but I will jump into things a little quicker than he does and he wants to be Yeah, wants to have all the information. Matt Those are things we learned about it To think that I was not as conservative as I am. But I realized that I'm a very conservative trader. I like to know everything about everything before I jump in, and sometimes that can hinder you, Margaret, she's like, let's get to it. Let's figure it out. And she jumps in. And I'm really admire that part of her. I really do. Margaret And as long as it works out, Matt she's I say she's measured, you know, she doesn't just jump into things. She's measured about it. Allen Yeah. But like, Margaret, what you said about the, you know, having, I guess, I don't know, for for a lot of women, it's a it's a fear. But it's also about a sense of security. And a lot of our customers are, you know, are the customers that come to us, and they come in, they're like, you know, my spouse doesn't want me trading, or when my spouse would rather have me working, because that paycheck comes in regular. I remember when I first started, even, even though I was, in the beginning, I was horrible. I lost a lot of my wife's money. But after I got good at it, she still was not comfortable with the trading, because she would be like, Okay, I don't know, if you're going to make money every month, you know? Because that's just the way it is. And so she's like, Can you do something pleased to have something regular come in? And that's probably the biggest motivation behind the company option genius. Was that, hey, even if I have a little bit, you know, obviously, I'm supposed to be a small little one person company. And is like, even if I have a little bit like, like a, you know, like, five $6,000 coming in a month. Okay, cool. She'll know that, you know, because she still wanted to work. So she knows something's coming in. But that's, that's just, I think it's ingrained in a lot of spouses that are not generating an income on their own that, hey, I need some consistency. So that's been a big for a lot of people. That's a big, you know, switch. Like to go from Yeah, my wife my husband makes or my wife makes x dollars per month to Yeah, I don't know, if he's gonna make any money. Margaret Yeah, I can see how that would be difficult. Because I mean, we're still both bringing in incomes and trading at the same time. Yeah. Matt Yeah, it's a big shift, a mindset shift. But I think the thing about trading is that, you know, when you're working a static job, you have that income, like you said, it's coming in monthly, you can rely on it. But the real benefit of trading, I think, is that you don't see used to see money as you exchange your paycheck for time. And in trading. You can just, you can just make money, and you don't have to sit there for that time. No, it's, you look as money is finite, in your mind, okay? When you look at trading, you work with trading, it's like, it just opens up to you. Margaret It's more of an energy like it goes out comes and goes out. Exactly. Yeah. Matt So I'm trying to say, Allen interesting. That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. So then have this written down? Okay, I'm gonna ask it or I don't know if which one of you is a better trader? Margaret So how do you define better? Allen I guess, who makes the most money? Matt I will say that I wrote this in a lot of books. And I believe that to be true as a women's are much better emotionally, as traders, I believe that I really do because guys are gonna over are like our macho, we just gotta just get in there and do it. And, you know, but in general, I think women are much, much better emotional trading style. Margaret I will just say last year, Matt made more money than I did. But this year, I've made more money than Matt did. So there you go.. Matt But I'm built for the long. Nothing short term with me. We actually nickname each other Margaret's short term, and I'm on long term, Margaret Yeah, I like short term, you know, I'm an entrepreneur. So I like to see things happen in a timely fashion. I live and breathe it, you know. And so I had do struggle with the long term stuff. One day, I would be curious to see what it would like be like to do long term put that. We'll see about that, you know, I like I like the shorter term gains. Matt But yeah, I mean, that's all part of your personality. So we I think we play off each other very well, you know? Yeah. Allen Yeah. It seems like you guys have a good balance. So then, like, if there's a disagreement, then how do you guys handle that? Or is it just, you know, you do whatever you want your account? I'll do whatever I want to my account. Margaret Yeah, well, we talk about what strike prices we're going to be at, and where, you know, kind of idea of what we both want to do. And then we may be a couple points different from each other. Matt Yeah, but we stay within the rules. And I think you know, the great thing about the strategies that you teach and that we've learned is that there's some flexibility in that, okay, as you get better as a trader, it's just not the rules, right? You know, it's just not like, Oh, get out here. And that's it, there's a little bit of flexibility, I think as you get better as a trader, you get more experienced behind you, you're able to kind of fudge the lines a little bit, if you will, not in a bad way, but be like, okay, you know, I know this, I have a little more experience, I can become a better trader. So it's like, that's the whole flexibility part. Margaret Right. And I think, too, just just thinking about how sometimes Matt will stay in a trade longer than me, and I'll get out quicker. Here's a good example. So this month, in our oil trading, I have tripled up, I've gotten in and gotten out three times, and he stayed in the whole time. You know, and I know, during the classes, there's a couple of other people in our class, when we're on the queue that do the same thing. And then some people will sit and so I think it just depends, and I don't know that it would work as well. For us, if we had one account, I just love having our separate accounts, where we get to talk about what we're gonna do and then have the freedom to.. Matt I think the key is that we talk about it. Yeah, I mean, if you don't talk about things between each other, it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So you're like, Okay, you're gonna go that at least I know about it, right. And then you can see how it works out, right. And then at least you know, what, what's going on, you know, it's different, if you just have a count, and you're just doing your own thing, and you're not talking about it. Margaret The, the emotions part is very real. And I don't think you can really understand that until you start to become a trader, and you see where the trade is. And you get to know yourself better, where in the beginning, we were a lot quicker to get out of a trade if it went a certain way. And now we've learned a little bit more of the rhythms, we know each other's rhythms. And so we don't we don't freak out either way, quite as much. Matt: But you got to look at it. Like in totality. I mean, nothing's the end of the world. Right? And with trading, you may lose money, and you probably will, okay, everybody's lost money. And experience is not cheap. Right? With that happening. It's, it's okay, you know, if nothing is, you treat money as, okay, you can be lost, and it can be one. And the whole idea of trading is getting consistent as a whole thing. And it's like, as you get better and better as a trader, I really believe in my core, you try everyone's trying to build that consistency. Okay, and you have to match your personality to that consistency Margaret: Do you also mean make money? Because that's my goal. Matt: Yes, consistently, or us to make money. But you need to be consistent to do that. Allen: So yeah. Well, like I say, In the beginning, it's not about making money. In the beginning, it's just about not losing money. So knowing what you do properly. And like, even if you don't make any money, that's okay. But you don't lose it month after month after month. Okay, I know, it's annoying, but that's a good thing. And then, you know, we could just do a little tweak here and there, and then then the the profits start taking off. So I totally agree with that. And see, because a lot of people that sell options, they'll tell you, Oh, yeah, you know, I have great months, and then I have a big loss. And then I have good months and have nobody wants to be on that roller coaster. Because eventually you're like, man, what am I doing? Matt: I mean, do you want to go make money in the beginning of the year, at the end of the year, you've lost money or just break even? It's, that's frustrating, you know? So the whole goal is to, you know, especially what you said in the beginning, it's very true. Yeah. Allen: So now you guys said that communication was key. So do you have any rules around that? Do you have like, do you like get together and say, okay, besides the trade trade talk, you know, when you have that, do you actually sit down and be like, alright, half an hour debrief, what do we do this week? How are we going to improve? Or is it just, Matt: I think I know what you're gonna go to. I think, I think, for us, and this is just for us, but a big part. And a lot of people think it's a dirty word. But a budget, we always had a budget always kept us in line, you know, and it's like, whenever we've kind of rapidly spending, you know, and aren't talking about trading, we're just talking about life and your budget, it always get us back on the road, so to speak. So that was a big piece of our communication. So it's just knowing that we're kind of on the road. So I think that flows into your trading and it flows into your communication. So I think that's a really big piece. Margaret: Yeah. And I would say like specific rules about communicating around trading, we've never said anything. It's just kind of happened organically. And we will, you know, there's there certain parameters that you teach in your class and we get in at a certain time and when we do that, we will talk to each other that day, and then we check it both together, generally in the morning, and we'll just kind of go Oh, or Yeah, and commit Write together or celebrate together. And then that I think, I guess that's the organic piece. We just check in with each other in the morning. Matt: Be like, Fine, quick text during the day, you know? Yeah. Margaret: Yeah. Because Matt is watching it for his day job. And he'll text me if something, you know, hey, keep your as open. This is happening or, but yeah, so I guess that's it like we wake up in the morning. We look at it, we chat about it, and then throughout the day, he'll text me. Or maybe if I'm doing something, I'll text him and say, Hey, have you seen? And he always says yes. But yeah, that's it. Okay, Allen: Cool. So what happens when one of you wins and the other loses? Matt: That's a good question. Well, yeah, I've lost before I've lost my I lost. I lost before. And oh, yeah. Oh. Yeah Margaret: Jog my memory. Okay. So I'm going to just tell myself here in the beginning, before we found your class, and I'm not just saying this, because this is true. So it's just true. We cannot say how much of course we lost $5,000. So $5,000 is, is a lot of work for me. And I, I am the one who had funded it that month, to the account, and Matt lost it. And we we realized then, that that was really tough. That was tough on me, it was tougher on me than it was him. And actually, our trade talk Fridays, were really good, because they had also lost the money. And I had lost a little bit, but not as much. We were all just really disheartened and frustrated. And I think I think I was a little mean was a little mean, Matt: Slightly slightly. Are you sure you can do this? Well, yeah, feel the weight of that. Right. Yeah. I mean, if you're not, your wife's out there, she's, she's busting her butt to bring in money, and then you just lose it. It's a lot of you feel the way that, you know, you gotta really dig deep and be like, okay, emotionally and you know, everything about to have the confidence to keep going, right? And you got to search and really believe in yourself that you can, you know, like I said, it's not the end of the world, but you have to get through there gonna be times like that. That happened. Margaret: It made me quit trading for a couple months. Yeah, I got really nervous. And then I said, okay, and then actually, that's is that that's about the time we found oil, wasn't it? Like we found oil sometime after that? It seemed to be a little exactly what you're talking about earlier, it wasn't as much of a roller coaster. And that has changed it for me. Allen: Okay, so was there anything else besides finding that strategy that was able to get you through it? Because like, I mean, emotionally, that's a it's a big hit. Right? And did anything change between the way you guys communicated the way you guys traded? Matt: No, I think Margaret took a little hiatus. I'm the type that I never, I never give up on thanks, I will just take it to the death, you know. I'm like, I just keep going no matter what, just get out of my way. No matter how many hits I take, I just keep going. And I leave it all on the table. So I just I knew I was going to keep going. But again, the key and I don't be, Margaret: but you. You did try it a little more conservatively? Didn't you? Matt: Sure. Yeah. I mean, you learn your lessons, you get burned out a little bit, you start to kind of, you know, you remember and you're like, Okay, I don't want to have those same feelings. But let me cautiously kind of figure it, learn from your mistakes, if you will, you know, and treat a little bit more conservative pay a little more attention. What can I learn from that experience? And I think that changes everything. Of course, you know, the strategies that we do, are a lot better, like I'm able to manage our trades so much better. I think that's important. Margaret: I think that's key. And I think that's key for me, knowing interesting that we have better management strategy now makes me feel a lot more secure, and a lot less emotional, and more. What's the word? I'm looking for sure. That Matt and I can both do the trades and not lose that $1,000 chunks anymore. Matt: More confident? Yeah. And I think I've read this before, and I really believe it is that you are your first really job is to become your risk assessor. And then you're a trader. Yeah. So it's like it's really important that you this all we do is assess risk all the time. So I think it's really important to, to focus on that. And once you get better at assessing risk and managing, just become a better trader, but you just kind of have to go through those things. I mean, when I first started trading, they're like, Okay, your first loss is your best loss. And I was like, what does that mean? They don't want to lose you. And like, they said it all the time, like, Oh, your first last year about like, Who is this person? Like, why did he say that to me? I don't want to lose. But it is true. Like, it teaches you things that you just, you think, you know, you like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get out of that trade, I know what I'm doing. And then you get burned. Everyone's got to touch the stove, apparently, at some point, you know, it's like, Oh, don't touch the stove. It's hot. But of course, we gotta go touch it. But that's just life. I mean, and it's how you react to those situations, I think. And you don't you don't tell yourself that you're not? How are you going to respond to that? Is very important. You know, in all aspects of life as a trader anything. Allen: I mean, a lot of people, you could say that, but it's not as easy when you're going through it. You know, the first time Oh, first time you do it, it's like, ah, people behave in all crazy different ways. Matt: Yeah. Yeah, it's just, you're gonna have to, I guess this, the best way is to do the best you can to bring people through that experience. All right, you can tell them that it's it probably will happen. But how you react to that situation? It's good to kind of tell your future. Margaret: We're model citizens is that? Allen: Well, I mean, they say that, you know, most divorces are caused because of money issues and problems. Yeah. You know, and a lot of people do not see eye to eye on money. And they don't talk about it before they get married. They don't talk about their goals, visions, whatever, or even how to balance it, you know, like, oh, yeah, one is a budget person. One is a non budget, I'm going to spend whatever I can, but it's like, a lot of people have these issues. And it's, it's great to see that you guys are same page, you know, same goal, same like, okay, hey, you guys talked about it ahead of time. Yeah, like, this is our vision. This is the goal. How do we get there, we'll change you know, like, we'll go on a different path. And we'll try and we'll try this. And like, you guys first started with the passive trading course. Right? It puts in the calls and, and then you say, Okay, let's graduate to something else. So then you guys added the oil program. And then you guys have been doing that. So you just added to something. Now you guys have even you know, got you got your own Airbnb now. So congratulations on that. Margaret: Thank you. Allen: So you're diversifying? So yeah, you're trying different things. And nobody says that you can't right. So you should you should work and in us every strategy available to get to whatever your your dream is. So in that sense, you guys have done a bunch of different things. How do you handle it when you disagree? Margaret: Like disagree on? Allen: On the path, disagree on maybe a tray disagree on let's say, you guys did the Airbnb? Maybe Matt would be like, yeah, no, I don't want to do that. And I want to put more money into trading account. Because we already know we're doing well here. Matt: I hate to disappoint. But I don't think we disagree on too much. If we do, it's like, you know, we do. I'm not saying it's easy enough. I mean, marriage is not easy. But we have their situations, I think it's important to you just you take a pause. You kind of realize how you're dealing with it personally, how you're, what you're thinking, what you're you're feeling, and then you come back to that person and you talk about it. Margaret: I think to just thinking about our investments so far, we do things that we are confident in our knowledge base around so I've had a real estate license for five years. And I shoot real estate and I understand real estate. So when I said Hey, Matt, let's buy this, Airbnb. He was like, Okay, sounds like a good investment. You've done the numbers. I trust you. Matt: Yeah, I do. I trust that she's, I've seen it, she's she's in that field, she does the work. She's always trying to figure it out. And I, their word really is trust. I trust her that she's going to do the best she can with it. Margaret: And I think it's about Yeah, I think it's likewise to you, because I trust that he's, he's read. If you could say our library of books, it's literally every book I've ever heard of on finance and investing. And multiple copies probably down. And so I think, I think it all comes back down to we, we because we both feel like we have studied different things. You know, and now Matt learns more about real estate and I, I give him all the credit because I always was interested in retirement and investing but I didn't know where to get started. And so because he had a knowledge base, he kind of brought me up a little bit faster than if I had then what I was able to do on my own right. So that's powerful. And then because I already trusted him so much and then we got to go to all the seminars together. It just build that built that foundation and so now we really don't disagree on Matt: I think part of also is like, I never wanted to push that on Margaret. Yeah, like my interest, right? I have interest in finance. I never wanted to push that it's an interest of mine. Real estates and interests of her. She doesn't push that on me. I don't push that on her. So it was, it becomes organic when you are you, you're interested in yourself, right? You're like, okay, you know, Matt's doing something. I'm interested in that I want to see a little bit more, but it comes from her. It doesn't come from me telling her Oh, you got to check this out. You should check this out. Yeah, that's important. But ultimately, it's gonna be her decision. Right? Yeah, Margaret: You start to for me, I started doing the numbers. Whoa, you can make this on a trade in two minutes. And I make this on how many? How many hours? Does it take me? Yeah, that's a no brainer. Allen: Cool. Okay, so now, so a lot of our customers they've been through. And unfortunately, like, they've gone on a path similar to yours. But I would say that you guys, you know, if you've, if you only started trading, like three years ago, you guys have taken a shorter route than a lot of our customers. Really? Yeah. So they've been trading for multiple years, still trying to figure out like, Hey, how can I make this work? How can I become consistent, profitable, I've tried, you know, XYZ strategy, and this and this, and this, and they've bought cores, and they've been videos and seminars, and, and they still are looking for that something, to get them over the hump, to get them to be like, Oh, finally, I'm actually making some money. Finally, like you said, they're confident that they can, you know, the month is going to start, I have a strategy that works. I'm confident I'll probably make money this month. But they're still not there yet. And because of that, because of them, you know, trying and investing in course, investing in Seminar investing in another doohickey. You know, they have all the things you can buy, like, Oh, hey, you know, that you can buy this indicator, and the indicator will tell you exactly when to buy and when to sell is only $3,000. You know, they're like, Okay, I'm gonna get that, you know, they get it and then they don't doesn't work. And then the wife or the other or the husband, either way, the spouse is like, I can't believe you're wasting all this time, all this energy, all this money on this trading stuff when he doesn't frickin work. You know, you've been trying for years, and it's just not working. It's all a big scam. Right? And that's the big girl. Yeah, it's a big scam that nobody can do this. So what advice or tips or anything? Would you suggest for a trader in that position where their spouse is maybe not very receptive to them continuing to trade? Where the spouse is like, you know, can you just give this up? You know, just spend time with me? Just, you know, Matt: Yeah. I'm gonna let you go first. And I'll go after. Margaret: Okay? Because we, we were not in that specific scenario, I just keep going back to it has to be the trust. So how are you going to build trust with your partner, not when they don't know what you're going through? And then I would say you would have to have some sort of mentor, and to be honest, that is you that that is you for us. Right? So we I remember, when I got the calculator that you sent out of this is where if you this is what you need in order to make the monthly income that you want on the percentage of money, and this is how much money you need in your account. And you've done it, like you've gone before us, we know it can be possible. So we're trusting that what you say is true. And we've seen it and especially now that that works for you. So I think finding somebody that you can put that trust into and having if your partner is not going to be in that with you, at least show them who that is that you're learning from or what they've done. And if if it's if it's not Alan Sama, then make sure that they've got a good record of what they've done. So that, that your partner can have trust in that you're learning from somebody that is credible. You know, the first thing we learned from had learned down the road from somebody who had learned from Warren Buffett, and so, you know, I don't really care about names of people, that doesn't impress me, but when you actually know something that impresses me, and that gives me the assurance to bet on myself. And that's what I would say, would be my advice. Matt: Yeah, I mean, I always went into investing, especially as I, you know, started to learn about options. I was like, I don't want to hear about oh, you can make all this money. You can do all this and everything's going great. I wanted to go and be like, show me how to do it. Right. And then once you show me how to do it, I believe you. And that's just who I am. And I think most people maybe are like that they want proof and they but more importantly they want to be be able to do it themselves, some people don't. But if you're into this and you want to learn, and you have to go into mindset be like, show me how to do it. And then you get the confidence that you can do it yourself, and then you can be able to teach other people. Allen: Okay, nice. Next question I have here is that you guys have been doing this for a little bit together? Are there anything thinking back that you would do differently? So basically, the question is, like, you know, are there any tips that you would give to a couple starting out? Or lesson or something that you felt? You know what, we didn't do that? Right? Maybe we should have done it differently? Margaret: I would. I know that $10,000 was a lot for us, when we bought into your class. It was 100% worth it. And I wish that we would have done that first. Matt: Yes, I think in this world, you know, you don't want to believe it, but you really pay for what you get. You know, it's a hard truth. Lots of people want to be like, oh, I want this for, you know, low money, or I want this, but you got to really look at is it? What's the worth of it? Right? Is it going to be? Margaret: And are you willing to do the work? Matt: Are you willing to do the work? That's a lot of people like, I think the advice I give people is like the least tell yourself before you think something is not worthy, or it doesn't go up to your expectations, at least go through and do the work of what has been laid before you. Okay, so you have all these lessons, and you have all everything, but you have to can you really tell yourself that you put on all the work, when you haven't gone through the class, when you haven't gone through all the, you know, really dug deep to get everything out of it, then you can say whether you want to continue or not, whether it was a failure, whether it was not at least do that. And I think it's important for people that start out, set aside a small amount of money, right? And maybe agree that, okay, if you lose this small amount of money, it's a good idea. Fine, it didn't work out. But at least you agreed on that. And then give it a shot. Yeah. Right. And then maybe if it didn't work out, and you want to go further, we examined it at that point. That way, you know, it's not like a, I lost everything. And it's the end of the world type scenario. At least I gave it a try. You know, I followed my dreams to figure out this on my own. And if you at least put in the effort, you can tell yourself, Margaret: I would like to give your wife major kudos. Since you said you lost a lot of money in the beginning. That's a good woman to keep if she kept supporting you to go forward. Allen: Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm very blessed. I am amazingly blessed. So I just give you a short version of the story. I had just been laid off. And so the question was, and we had just been married recently. And so the idea was, Okay, do I go and get another job? Or do I try something else? And, you know, I had been dabbling with trading. But I was like, maybe I could do this full time. So she's like, Okay, if you think you can do it, go for it. And, of course, I did not have any money. She had money from that she had saved up from working for several years before we got married. So she's like, you know, I have all this in savings. You know, try it. And so then she got a second job to support us. So because I wasn't making anything, so she got the second job. And she's working. She was a nurse. So she was working like three days a week at the at the hospitals, 12 hour shifts. And then on the other day, she would be, they have this thing called home health, where the nurse actually shows up to your house. So she would be driving around town, going from place to place to place, you know, giving injections and IVs and medicines and all that stuff. So very draining, especially with all the traffic and everything. And yeah, and I proceeded to try everything like day trading and futures and forex and commodity options and everything is like nothing was working. And I was down over 40 grand. When I finally actually, I think what turned it around was that she found out because I was hiding it from her. Like I wasn't telling ya that she came on to check the mail. She checked the statement. She's like, where's all the money? Oh, like, oh, yeah, about that. So it was either Yeah, you know, it's like, okay, either go to go get a job right away. Turn this around. Or, you know, if you don't do one of those things, we're probably getting split, right. So I was planning like, I was getting my resume ordered together. And then I found selling options. Like I discovered that Hey, there, there was a trade I did that was actually it worked. And I'm like, Well, what is this? Let me follow up more and then I got into it and I showed her how to do it. She was like, Okay, you have something here. So you'd like you said I did Didn't I put like all the money aside? You know, I stopped playing with all the money. And I took a small amount. And I'm like, Okay, let me see if I could just do something with this, instead of the big amount. And that gave her pause, like, okay, fine, you know, he's not gonna lose all the money. And if I lost that money, then yeah, go get another job. And that's it, end of story. But luckily, I showed her she understood it, it started working. And then you know, then the rest is history from there. Margaret: I can imagine there's some pretty real feelings going on around that. That's Allen: Very stressful. Yeah, very, very stressful. Because she wanted to know what I was doing. But she didn't have any background in finance. You know, her family never talked about investing or anything. So she didn't really know anything about it. Slowly, slowly, I started telling her. And then the funny part is, she would come home, like, and she'd be like, Oh, hey, she got interested, right? And she would come home and she goes, Hey, I checked the news and the markets up today. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm, you know, I'm in. I'm in calls today. Oh, there she goes, Oh, no, oh, that's too bad. You know? And then two days later, she'd be like, Oh, look, I checked in the markets down today. I'm like, No. I mean, Puts today. She would like she did, she wouldn't know if I'm gonna be happy or sad. But she was nuts. But yeah, so and then after a while, then it got good. And like I said, you know, she wanted that stability. She didn't want that up and down. She's like, I need something stable income, so I can quit the second job, take okay. And then she was able to quit the first job. And then so it worked out. But yeah, it was a long, hard road. And I did not have the mentor that you mentioned, you know, so that was one of the probably the biggest things that if I could have found somebody that could have just pulled my hand be like, here, this works, just follow this plan. Margaret: You know, that's why we got to shortcut it. Yeah. Allen: But.. Matt: I think that is a hard thing. Because you're always trying to search for, you know, they're always there numerous or many mentors out in the world, it's like, is trying to find who's true, right? That's it's very difficult. And you you have a guard up, everyone's got their guard up. And they're always kind of like, is this person trying to take me or, you know, I don't feel right about this person, I maybe feel right about this person. I mean, just look at FTX. I mean, that guy that was like darling, and crypto. And then they find out he's, he's, you know, a Bernie Madoff. So it's like, it happens over and over again. So that's kind of how I got into trading. I was like, show me how to do it, and see if it worked, right. And you're not only a mentor, but you show people how to do it. And then you can build trust in yourself, rather than, you know, of course, a mentor is wonderful. And it will shortcut that process. But you can learn about this stuff. And then you, you make yourself your own mentor in a way, you know, it's like you just kind of be like, Okay, I have the confidence now. And then you can go on. Allen: Yeah, I think it all comes down to confidence too. Because like, if I look at it, you know, we have several students that in any strategy that you pick one strategy, and then there's somebody there that's been like, Oh, hey, I did you know this much percent? And I'm like, wow, that's better than me. And there's another strategy. Oh, I did this much. And I'm like that better than me. And I know that, like, what everybody's doing better than me what's going on? You know, but I think that's part of it is the confidence. There's like, and this will tell you something about me, like, you know, I came up with the rules, right? So I came up with the test and testing it and failing, and I forgot what they call it. But it's like, you know, you, you try something and then you fail, and you try and you're failing, you chaired it. So in my mind, you know, all these rules are made by me. Right? So I was like, I don't know how much I can, you know, like, really? I'm gonna trust myself. I don't know. It's scary. But then somebody else comes and goes, Oh, Allen, you know, he's the man. He knows what he's doing. I'm just gonna go 100%. And they do. They do better than me. And I'm like, I don't get it. Matt: redo my rules. Allen: I just need to, I just, like, forget it. I just give you guys my money's like here. Matt: But I mean, in all seriousness, as well, I mean, people, they come in these programs, and everyone has so much to add. I mean, that's how you get better. I mean, there's people that are just like, oh, yeah, I did this way. And you're like, Oh, I didn't think about that. And it's like, if you're open to that, and you receive that, then it makes everything better for everybody. And I've seen that over and over again, where somebody will just say, Oh, I found this way to do this easier. It's like it's constant learning. All of us are constantly learning constantly getting better constantly trying to achieve and go go better. And that's a wonderful thing. Allen: Yep. Yeah, we had an hour. Just recently, we in our passive trading group, somebody had put like, Hey, I don't know how to do this. And I'm pretty sure it's in it's in the core somewhere. But then another student was like, oh, here, let me make you a video. And he just made a video. Yeah, this is how I did it. It's like, Oh, wow. And they asked another Oh, how about this, he made another video. It's just, you know, everybody's helping each other because we all have the same goal. And it's like, Let's just all work together. And, you know, we're all on the same path. Matt: Yeah, it's like, it's always true, you surround yourself with the right people, and good things will happen. I mean, it's just just got to be able to do that, Allen: you know, it's like, amazing, we had some really cool students, helpful, you know, just to go out of the way for each other. It's really, really nice. So then, okay, so my last question for you guys. And I don't know, maybe you guys like, maybe this is a problem that we've seen people have, but I don't know if you guys are gonna be able to answer it. But how can a trader have their spouse support them in their trading? So like, you know, if, you know, one of you is the trader, or you want to do something, how can you get your spouse to have that confidence in you? That you can do it? Does that make sense? Yeah. Because like, I know, with my wife, in the beginning, she didn't have any confidence. And then later on, you know, the numbers kind of spoke for themselves. But one of the things I did was when the back testing software came out that we that we use a lot, I showed it to her. And she was like, Oh, cool. I want to learn this, too. So we would sit there, and I gave her the rules. I think we were talking about credit spreads at the time. It's like, okay, so this is kind of how we find a trade. And I didn't have like, first set out rules yet. It was just, you know, ideas. I try, sometimes they do this way, that way. And so then I had her and I told her what it was. And we would look at a chart and be like, okay, hey, what do you what's the trade? And so she would pick her trade? And then, you know, we would we would go through it. And then I had already done it my way, you know, and it would always come out where she was actually more profitable than me. Same trade, same stock, same timeframe, if we had done it her way, we would have made more money. That's the thing about the confidence. He knows, like, when you see your wife who doesn't know anything, she just numbers, you know, she doesn't matter. It's like, I don't know, maybe I'm not cut out for this. But then, but then later on, there was a time where I got into like, a, like a rut, you know, so I wasn't I wasn't following the rules, the discipline became a problem. Because our trading doesn't take a lot of time. And so when you're just, you know, stuck, you don't have anything else to do, you kind of start over trading, and you're messing around with stuff. And so I had her, and she came, she's the one that came up with this. She's like, you know what, every single trade, you're going to write it down. And you're going to tell me, and I'm going to come upstairs at one o'clock every day, I'm going to ask you questions about every single trade, you know, and I forget exactly what they were. But it's in one of our products. It's like, you know, what's the goal? What's the plan? You're going to adjust it or you're going to get out when you're going to do it? Where's it now? And why haven't you done what you're supposed to do? You know, and so because of that, because I knew she was going to come? Right? I would have everything ready before she came in. So if I had to get out of a trade because it was down or I needed to do an adjustment, it will already be done by the time she got in. And so that degree of holding me accountable. It really I mean the results just went skyrocketing higher. That's really smart. So that was.. Margaret: something that you said yesterday on our call on our oil call really has stuck with me about every day that you wake up you have a decision to stay in that trade or get out so that's the day that you're making a decision. And it's not Yeah, so that it just hit me this morning because we had the the market was down a little bit this morning. And we talked about it like what what are we going to do so I like that idea of having an accountable Matt: Well, it's important because you're you yourself are going to be emotionally different each day for whatever reason, just as you as an individual that but now you have your wife or someone who was account recording accountable is going to come in and keep you straight. I think what every what everybody needs Allen: Yep. Either either spouse or buddy or accountability partner or something like that, that you can trade with. Trading buddy, I like that. Cool. Okay. Is there anything else that you guys wanted to share with our audience? Margaret: Hmm, you can do it. You can absolutely do it. I think if I could have told myself which I had zero knowledge background in how what what was a brokerage? Let's just start with the simple step. I did not even know the difference between brokerages I did not understand what a brokerage account was. So if I could Tell Margaret, even just five years ago, what I will be doing today, I would not have believed it. And that once you start looking at your money, you know, everybody always says nobody cares about your money more than you do. I think our age group needs this knowledge. Because with the advent of you having to figure out your own retirement and not having pensions, it is extremely important for us to know that and we didn't have any knowledge that is out there. You know, we didn't we weren't 20 and Tiktok. And Instagram rails were out there where you could learn some of this stuff. You know, we're where we're younger people already know so much more than I knew when I'm in my 20s. I think there's a group of us that needs the hope that comes from knowing that you can manage your own money, and you can make money and you can help your retirement, it doesn't matter if you're in your 40s. Matt: No matter really what age you are, I mean, my mother's 80, right. And if she was, you know, I used to stay at Costco all the time. And I said this many times where they're, they're older people that give out samples or they're in the job. And there, you can see that they're in pain. They're standing all day long, and they're like 70, and 80 years old. And if they just knew if they knew how to do a simple strategy, or trade or just learn it, in which they totally can, yeah, or be shown that and, you know, they can believe in it, that would change their life. And they change their comfort, not later on and be right now. Yeah. Which is so powerful. So it's really it goes to, that's what I love about trading, it can help all age groups. Yeah. Right. And you're right. No one cares about your money more than you do. And I look at like, life's risky. Everything's at risk. So you owe it to yourself. You think trading is risky. Give it a shot. Everything's risky. Yeah. Right. So you got to overcome your fears. See how things work? Believe in yourself. And just go for it. Yeah, because we're only on here one turn, you know, Margaret: Why not? Give it a shot? Allen: Well said Well said, you guys, I really thank you for this. This has been a pleasure. And I really appreciate your time and spending some time and sharing intimate details about your lives and your relationship with us. It's it's been a blessing. Thank you so much. Margaret: Thank you for asking us. Yeah.

About MattMatt is the head of community at Lawtrades, a legal tech startup that connects busy in-house legal departments with flexible on-demand legal talent. Prior to this role, Matt was the director of legal and risk management at a private equity group down in Miami, Florida. Links Referenced: Lawtrades: https://www.lawtrades.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itsmattslaw/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@itsmattslaw Twitter: https://twitter.com/ItsMattsLaw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/flattorney/ duckbillgroup.com: https://duckbillgroup.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: If you asked me to rank which cloud provider has the best developer experience, I'd be hard-pressed to choose a platform that isn't Google Cloud. Their developer experience is unparalleled and, in the early stages of building something great, that translates directly into velocity. Try it yourself with the Google for Startups Cloud Program over at cloud.google.com/startup. It'll give you up to $100k a year for each of the first two years in Google Cloud credits for companies that range from bootstrapped all the way on up to Series A. Go build something, and then tell me about it. My thanks to Google Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Logicworks. Getting to the cloud is challenging enough for many places, especially maintaining security, resiliency, cost control, agility, etc, etc, etc. Things break, configurations drift, technology advances, and organizations, frankly, need to evolve. How can you get to the cloud faster and ensure you have the right team in place to maintain success over time? Day 2 matters. Work with a partner who gets it - Logicworks combines the cloud expertise and platform automation to customize solutions to meet your unique requirements. Get started by chatting with a cloud specialist today at snark.cloud/logicworks. That's snark.cloud/logicworksCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Something that I've learned in my career as a borderline full-time shitposter is that as the audience grows, people tend to lose sight of the fact that no, no, the reason that I have a career is because I'm actually good at one or two specific things, and that empowers the rest of the shitposting, gives me a basis from which to stand. Today's guest is Matt Margolis, Head of Community at Lawtrades. And I would say he is also a superior shitposter, but instead of working in the cloud space, he works in the legal field. Matt, thank you for joining me.Matt: That was the nicest intro I've ever received in my entire career.Corey: Well, yes, usually because people realize it's you and slam the door in your face, I assume, just based upon some of your TikToks. My God. Which is—I should point out—where I first encountered you.Matt: You found me on TikTok?Corey: I believe so. It sends me down these really weird rabbit holes, and at first, I was highly suspicious of the entire experience. Like, it's showing ADHD videos all the time, and as far as advertisements go, and it's, “Oh, my God, they're doing this really weird tracking,” and like, no, no, they just realize I'm on TikTok. It's that dopamine hit that works out super well. For a while, it drifted me into lesbian TikTok—which is great—because apparently, I follow a lot of creators who are not men, but I also don't go for the whole thirst trap things. Like, who does that? That's right. Must be lesbians. Which, great, I'm in good company. And it really doesn't know what to make of me. But you show up on my feed with fairly consistent frequency. Good work.Matt: That is fac—I appreciate that. I don't know if that's a compliment, though. But I [laugh]—no, I appreciate it. You know, for me, I get… not to plug a friend but I get—Alex Su's TikToks are probably like, one in two and then the other person is—maybe I'm also on lesbian TikTok as well. I think maybe we have earned the similar vote here.Corey: In fact, there's cohorts that they slot people into and I feel like we're right there together. Though Ales Su, who has been on the show as well, talk about source of frustration. I mentioned in passing that I was going to be chatting with him to my wife, who's an attorney. And she lit up. Like, “Oh, my God, you know him? My girlfriends and I talk about him all the time.”And I was sitting there going, well, there better damn well be a subculture out there that talks about me and those glowing terms because he's funny, yes, but he's not that funny. My God. And don't tell him that. It'll go to his head.Matt: I say the same thing. I got a good one for you. I was once in the sales call, and I remember speaking with—I was like, “You know, I'm like, pretty decent on Twitter. I'm pretty decent on LinkedIn”—which I don't think anyone brags about that, but I do—“And I'm okay on, like, Instagram and TikTok.” And he goes, “That's cool. That's really cool. So, are you kind of like Alex? Like, Alex Su?” And I go? “Uh, yeah,” he goes, “Yeah, because he's really funny. He's probably the best lawyer out there that, you know, shitposts and post funny things on the internet.” And I just sat there—and I love Alex; he's a good friend—I just sat there, and I'm like, “All right. All right. This is a conversation about Alex. This isn't a conversation about Matt.” And I took him to stride. I called Alex immediately after. I'm like, “Hey, you want to hear something funny.” And he got a kick out of it. He certainly got a kick out of it.Corey: It's always odd to me, just watching my own reputation come back to me filtered through other people's perceptions whenever I wind up encountering people in the wild, and they say, oh, you're Corey Quinn at—which is usually my clue to look at them very carefully with my full attention because if their next words are, “I work at Amazon,” that's my cue to duck before I get punched in the face. Whereas in other cases, they're like, “Oh, yeah, you're hilarious on the Twitters.” Or, “I saw you give a conference talk years ago,” or whatever it is. But no one ever says the stuff that's actually intellectually rigorous. No one ever says, “Yeah, I read some of your work on AWS contract negotiation,” or, “In-depth bill analysis as mapped to architecture.” Yeah, yeah. That is not the stuff that sticks in people's head. It's, “No, no, the funny guy with his mouth wide open on the internet.” It's, “Yep, that's me. The human flytrap.”Matt: Yeah, I feel that. I've been described, I think, is a party clown. That comes up from time to time. And to your point, Corey, like, I get that all the time where someone will say, “Matt I really enjoyed that meme you posted, the TikTok, the funny humor.” And then every so often, I'll post, gosh, like, an article about something we're doing, maybe a white paper on commercial contracting, or some sort of topic that really fits into my wheelhouse, and people were like, “That's… I guess that's cool. I just thought you were a party clown.” And you know, I make the balloon animals but… not all the time.Corey: That's the weirdest part to me of all of this is just this weird experience where we become the party clowns and that is what people view us as, but peeling away the humor and the jokes and the things we do for engagement, as we're like, we're sitting here each trying to figure out the best way to light ourselves on fire and survive the experience because the views would be enormous, you do have a legal background. You are an attorney yourself—still are, if I understand the process properly. Personally have an eighth-grade education, so basically, what I know of bars is a little bit of a different context.Matt: I also know those bars. I'm definitely a fan of those bars as well. I am still an attorney. I was in private practice, I worked in the government. I then went in-house in private equity down in Miami, Florida. And now, though I am shitposter, you are right, I am still a licensed attorney in the state of Florida. Could not take a bar exam anywhere else because I probably would light myself on fire. But yeah, I am. I am still an attorney.Corey: It's wild to me just to see how much of this world winds up continuing to, I guess, just evolve in strange and different ways. Because you take a look at the legal profession, it's—what is it, the world's second oldest profession? Because they say that the oldest profession was prostitution and then immediately someone, of course, had a problem with this, so they needed to have someone to defend them and hence, lawyers; the second oldest profession. And it seems like it's a field steeped in traditionalism, and with the bar, yes, a bit of gatekeeping. And now it's trying to deal with a highly dynamic, extraordinarily irreverent society.And it feels like an awful lot of, shall we say, more buttoned-down attorney types tend to not be reacting to any of that super well. I mean, most of my interaction with lawyers in a professional context when it comes to content takes a lot more of the form of a cease and desist than it does conversations like this. Thanks for not sending one of those, by the way, so far. It's appreciated.Matt: [laugh]. No worries, no worries. The day is not over yet. First off, Corey, I'm going to do a thing that attorneys love doing is I'm going to steal what you just said and I'm going to use it later because that was stellar.Corey: They're going to license it, remember?Matt: License it.Corey: That's how this works.Matt: Copy and paste it. I'm going to re—its precedent now. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I see it online, I see it on Link—LinkedIn is probably the best example of it; I sometimes see it on Twitter—older attorneys, attorneys that are part of that old guard, see what we're doing, what we're saying, the jokes we're making—because behind every joke is a real issue a real thing, right? The reason why we laugh, at least for some of these jokes, is we commiserate over it. We're like, “That's funny because it hurts.”And a lot of these old-guard attorneys hate it. Do not want to talk about it. They've been living good for years. They've been living under this regime for years and they don't want to deal with it. And attorneys like myself who are making these jokes, who are shitposting, who are bringing light to these kinds of things are really, I would say dis—I hate to call myself a disrupter, but are disrupting the traditional buttoned-up attorney lifestyle and world.Corey: It's wild to me, just to see how much of this winds up echoing my own experiences in dealing with, shall we say, some of the more I don't use legacy, which is a condescending engineering term for ‘it makes money,' but some of the older enterprise companies that had the temerity to found themselves before five years ago in somewhere that wasn't San Francisco and build things on computers that weren't rented by the gigabyte-month from various folks in Seattle. It's odd talking to some of those folks, and I've heard from a number of people, incidentally, that they considered working with my company, but decided not to because I seem a little too lighthearted and that's not how they tend to approach things. One of the nice things about being a boutique consultant is that you get to build things like this to let the clients that are not likely to be a good fit self-select out of working with you.Matt: It's identical to law.Corey: Yeah. “Aren't you worried you're losing business?” Like, “Oh, don't worry. It's not business I would want.”Matt: I'm okay with it. I'll survive. Yeah, like, the clients that are great clients, you're right, will be attracted to it. The clients that you never wanted to approach, they probably were never going to approach you anyways, are not [laugh] going to approach you. So, I agree wholeheartedly. I was always told lawyers are not funny. I've been told that jobs, conferences, events—Corey: Who are you hanging out with doctors?Matt: [laugh]. Dentists. The funniest of doctors. And I've been told that just lawyers aren't funny, right? So, lawyers shouldn't be funny; that's not how they should present themselves.You're never going to attract clients. You're ever going to engage in business development. And then I did. And then I did because people are attracted by funny. People like the personality. Just like you Corey, people enjoy you, enjoy your company, enjoy what you have to do because they enjoy being around you and they want to continue via, you know, like, business relationship.Corey: That's part of the weird thing from where I sit, where it's this—no matter what you do or where you sit, people remain people. And one of the big eye-openers for me that happened, fortunately early in my career, was discovering that a number of execs at name brand, publicly traded companies—not all of them, but a good number; the ones you'd want to spend time with—are in fact, human beings. I know, it sounds wild to admit that, but it's true. And they laugh, they tell stories themselves, they enjoy ridiculous levels of nonsense that tends to come out every second time I opened my mouth. But there's so much that I think people lose sight of. “Oh, they're executives. They only do boring and their love language is PowerPoint.” Mmm, not really. Not all of them.Matt: It's true. Their love language sometimes is Excel. So, I agree [laugh].Corey: That's my business partner.Matt: I'm not good at Excel, I'll tell you that. But I hear that as well. I hear that in my own business. So, I'm currently at a place called Lawtrades, and for the listeners out there, if you don't know who Lawtrades is, this is the—I'm not a salesperson, but this is my sales spiel.Corey: It's a dating site for lawyers, as best I can tell.Matt: [laugh]. It is. Well, I guess close. I mean, we are a marketplace. If you're a company and you need an attorney on a fractional basis, right—five hours, ten hours, 15 hours, 20 hours, 40 hours—I don't care, you connect.And what we're doing is we're empowering these freelance attorneys and legal professionals to kind of live their life, right, away from the old guard, having to work at these big firms to work at big clients. So, that's what we do. And when I'm in these conversations with general counsels, deputy general counsels, heads of legal at these companies, they don't want to talk like you're describing, this boring, nonsense conversation. We commiserate, we talk about the practice, we talk about stories, war stories, funny things about the practice that we enjoy. It's not a conversation about business; it's a conversation about being a human being in the legal space. It's always a good time, and it always results in a long-lasting relationship that I personally appreciate more than—probably more than they do. But [laugh].Corey: It really comes down to finding the watering holes where your humor works. I mean, I made the interesting choice one year to go and attend a conference for CFOs and the big selling point of this conference was that it counts as continuing professional education, which as you're well aware, in regulated professions, you need to attend a certain number of those every so often, or you lose your registration slash license slash whatever it is. My jokes did not work there. Let's put it that way.Matt: [laugh]. That's unfortunate because I'm having trouble keeping a straight face as we do this podcast.Corey: It was definitely odd. I'm like, “Oh, so what do you do?” Like, “Oh, I'm an accountant.” “Well, that's good. I mean, assume you don't bring your work home with you and vice versa. I mean, it's never a good idea to hook up where you VLOOKUP.”And instead of laughing—because I thought as Excel jokes go, that one's not half bad—instead, they just stared at me and then walked away. All right. Sorry, buddy, I didn't mean to accidentally tell a joke in your presence.Matt: [laugh]. You're setting up all of my content for Twitter. I like that one, too. That was really good.Corey: No, no, it comes down to just being a human being. And one of the nice things about doing what I've done—I'm curious to get your take on this, is that for the first time in my career doing what I do now, I feel like I get to bring my whole self to work. That is not what it means that a lot of ways it's commonly used. It doesn't mean I get to be problematic and make people feel bad as individuals. That's just being an asshole; that's not bringing your whole self to work.But it also means I feel like I don't have to hide, I can bring my personality with me, front and center. And people are always amazed by how much like my Twitter personality I am in real life. And yeah because I can't do a bit for this long. I don't have that kind of attention span for one. But the other side of that, too, is does exaggerate certain elements and it's always my highs, never my lows.I'm curious to know how you wind up viewing how you present online with who you are as a person.Matt: That is a really good question. Similar. Very similar. I do some sort of exaggeration. The character I like to play is ‘Bad Associate.' It's, like, one of my favorite characters to play where it's like, if I was the worst version of myself, in practice, what would I look like?And those jokes to me always make me laugh because I always—you know, you have a lot of anxiety when you practice. That's just an aspect of the law. So, for me, I get to make jokes about things that I thought I was going to do or sound like or be like, so it honestly makes me feel a little better. But for the humor itself and how I present online, especially on Twitter, my boss, one of my co-founders, put it perfectly. And we had met for a conference, and—first time in person—and he goes, “You're no different than Twitter, are you?” I go, “Nope.” And he goes, “That's great.”And he really appreciated that. And you're right. I felt like I presented my whole personality, my whole self, where in the legal profession, in private practice, it was not the case. Definitely not the case.Corey: Yeah, and sometimes I talk in sentences that are more than 280 characters, which is, you know, a bad habit.Matt: Sometimes. I have a habit from private practice that I can't get rid of, and I ask very aggressive depo questions like I'm deposing somebody. If you're listening in, can you write me on Twitter and tell me if you're a litigator and you do the same thing? Because, like, I will talk to folks, and they're like, “This isn't an interview or like a deposition.” I'm like, “Why? Why isn't it?” And it [laugh] gets really awkward really quickly. But I'm trying to break that habit.Corey: I married a litigator. That pattern tracks, let's be clear. Not that she doesn't so much, but her litigator friends, if litigators could be said to have friends, yeah, absolutely.Matt: My wife is a former litigator. Transactional attorney.Corey: Yes. Much the same. She's grown out of the habit, thankfully.Matt: Oh, yeah. But when we were in the thick of litigation, we were actually at competing law firms. It was very much so, you come home, and it's hard to take—right, it's hard to not take your work home, so there was definitely occasions where we would talk to each other and I thought the judge had to weigh in, right, because there were some objections thrown, some of the questions were leading, a little bit of compound questions. So, all right, that's my lawyer joke of the day. I'm sorry, Corey. I won't continue on the schtick.Corey: It works, though. It's badgering the witness, witnessing the badger, et cetera. Like, all kinds of ridiculous nonsense and getting it wrong, just to be, I guess, intentionally obtuse, works out well. Something you said a minute ago does tie into what you do professionally, where you mentioned that your wife was a litigator and now is a transactional attorney. One thing they never tell you when you start a business is how many lawyers you're going to be working with.And that's assuming everything goes well. I mean, we haven't been involved in litigation, so that's a whole subset of lawyer we haven't had to deal with yet. But we've worked with approximately six—if memory serves—so far, not because we're doing anything egregious, just because—rather because so many different aspects of the business require different areas of specialty. We also, to my understanding—and I'm sure my business partner will correct me slash slit my throat if I'm wrong—I've not had to deal with criminal attorneys in any interesting ways. Sorry, criminal defense attorneys, criminal attorneys is a separate setup for a separate story.But once I understood that, realizing, oh, yeah, Lawtrades. You can find specialist attorneys to augment your existing staff. That is basically how I view that. Is that directionally accurate?Matt: Yeah. So like, common issue I run into, right is, like, a general counsel, is a corporate attorney, right? That's their background. And they're very aware that they're not an employment attorney. They're not a privacy attorney. Maybe they're not an IP attorney or a patent attorney.And because they realize that, because they're not like that old school attorney that thinks they can do everything and solve everyone's problems, they come to Lawtrades and they say, “Look, I don't need an employment attorney for 40 hours a week. I just need ten hours. That's all I need, right? That's the amount of work that I have.” Or, “I don't have the budget for an attorney for 40 hours, but I need somebody. I need somebody here because that's not my specialty.”And that happens all the time where all of a sudden, a solo general counsel becomes a five or six-attorney legal department, right, because you're right, attorneys add up very quickly. We're like rabbits. So, that's where Lawtrades comes in to help out these folks, and help out freelance attorneys, right, that also are like, “Hey, listen, I know employment law. I can help.”Corey: Do you find that the vast slash entire constituency of your customers pretend to be attorneys themselves, or is this one of those areas where, “I'm a business owner. I don't know how these law things work. I had a firm handshake and now they're not paying as agreed. What do I do?” Do you wind up providing, effectively, introduction services—since I do view you as, you know, match.com for dating with slightly fewer STDs—do you wind up then effectively acting as an—[unintelligible 00:18:47] go to talk to find a lawyer in general? Or does it presuppose that I know which end of a brief is up?Matt: There's so many parts of what you just said I want to take as well. I also liked that you didn't just say no STDs. That was very lawyerly of you. It's always, like, likely, right?Corey: Oh, yes. So, the answer to any particular level of seniority and every aspect of being an attorney is, “It depends.”Matt: That's right. That's right. It triggers me for you to say it. Ugh. So, our client base, generally speaking, our companies ranging from, like, an A round company that has a solo GC all the way up to a publicly traded company that has super robust legal department that maybe needs a bunch of paralegals, bunch of legal operations professionals, contract managers, attorneys for very niche topics, niche issues, that they're just, that is not what they want to do.So, generally speaking, that's who we service. We used to be in the SMB space. There was a very public story—my founders are really cool because they built in public and we almost went broke, actually in that space. Which, Corey, I'm happy to share that article with you. I think you'll get a kick out of it.Corey: I would absolutely look forward to seeing that article. In fact, if you send me the link, we will definitely make it a point to throw it into the [show notes 00:19:58].Matt: Awesome. Happy to do it. Happy to do it. But it's cool. The clients, I tell you what, when I was in private practice when I was in-house, I would always deal with an adverse attorney. That was always what I was dealing with.No one was ever—or a business person internally that maybe wasn't thrilled to be on the phone. I tell you what, now, when I get to talk to some of these folks, they're happy to talk to me; it's a good conversation. It really has changed my mentality from being a very adverse litigator attorney to—I mean it kind of lends itself to a shitposter, to a mean guy, to a party clown. It's a lot of fun.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Uptycs, because they believe that many of you are looking to bolster your security posture with CNAPP and XDR solutions. They offer both cloud and endpoint security in a single UI and data model. Listeners can get Uptycs for up to 1,000 assets through the end of 2023 (that is next year) for $1. But this offer is only available for a limited time on UptycsSecretMenu.com. That's U-P-T-Y-C-S Secret Menu dot com.Corey: One area that I think is going to be a point of commonality between us is in what the in-and-out of our day jobs look like. Because looking at it from a very naive perspective, why on earth does what is effectively an attorney referral service—yes, which may or may not run afoul of how you describe yourselves; I know, lawyers are very particular about wording—Matt: Staffing [laugh].Corey: Exactly. Legal staffing. There we are. It doesn't seem to lend itself to having a, “Head of Community,” quote-unquote, which really translates into, “I shitpost on the internet.” The same story could be said to apply to someone who fixes AWS bills because in my part of the industry, obviously, there is a significant problem with people who have large surprise bills from their cloud provider, but they generally don't talk about them in public as soon as they become an even slightly serious company.You don't find someone at a Fortune 500 complaining on Twitter about how big their AWS bill is because that does horrifying things to their stock price as well as them personally, once the SEC gets involved. So, for me, it was always I'm going to be loud and noisy and have fun in the space so that people hear about me, and then when they have this problem, in the come. Is that your approach to this, or is it more or less the retconning story that I just told, and it really had its origins in, “I'm just going to shitpost. I feel like good things will happen.”Matt: Funnily enough, it's both. That's how it started. So, when I was in private practice, I was posting like crazy on—I'm going to say LinkedIn for the third time—and again, I hope somebody sends a nasty message to me about how bad LinkedIn is, which I don't think it's that bad. I think it's okay—so I was shitposting on LinkedIn before probably many folks were shitposting on LinkedIn, again like Alex, and I was doing it just because I was tired of attorneys being what we described, this old guard, buttoned up, just obnoxiously perfect version of themselves. And it eventually led itself into this career. The whole journey was wild, how I got here. Best way to describe it was a crazy trip.Corey: It really is. You also have a very different audience in some ways. I mean, for example, when you work in the legal field, to my understanding from the—or being near to it, but not within it, where you go to school is absolutely one of those things that people still bring up as a credential decades later; it's the first thing people scroll to on LinkedIn. And in tech, we have nothing like that at all. I mean, just ask anyone of the random engineers who talk about where they used to work in their Twitter bio: ex-Google, ex-Uber, et cetera.Not quite as bad as the VC space where it's, “Oh, early investor in,” like, they list their companies, which of course to my mind, just translates directly into, the most interesting thing about you is that once upon a time, you wrote a check. Which yeah, and with some VCs that definitely tracks.Matt: That's right. That's a hundred percent right. It's still like that. I actually saw a Twitter post, not necessarily about education, but about big law, about working in big law where folks were saying, “Hey, I've heard a rumor that you cannot go in-house at a company unless you worked in big law.” And I immediately—I have such a chip on my shoulder because I am not a big law attorney—I immediately jumped to it to say, “Listen, I talk to in-house attorneys all the time. I'm a former in-house attorney. You don't have to work with big law. You don't have to go to a T-14 law school.” I didn't. I went to Florida State University in Tallahassee.But I hear that to this day. And you're right, it drives me nuts because that is a hallmark of the legal industry, bragging about credentials, bragging about where I came from. Because it also goes back to that old guard of, “Oh, I came from Harvard, and I did this, and I did that,” because we love to show how great and special we are not by our actual merits, but where we came from.Corey: When someone introduces themselves to me at a party—which has happened to me before—and in their introduction, they mention where they went to law school, I make it a point to ask them about it and screw it up as many times in the rest of the evening as I can work in to. It's like they went to Harvard. Like so, “Tell me about your time at Yale.” “Oh, sorry. I must have forgotten about that.” Or, “What was the worst part about living in DC when you went to law school?” “Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that. You went to Harvard. How silly of me.”Matt: There's a law school at Dartmouth [laugh]?Corey: I know. I'm as surprised as anyone to discover these things. Yeah. I mean, again, on the one hand, it does make people feel a little off and that's not really what I like doing. But on the other, ideally, it's a little bit of a judgment nudge as far as this may not sound the way that you think it sounds when you introduce yourself to people that way.Matt: All the time. I hear that all the time. Every so often, I'll have someone—and I think a lot of the industry, maybe just the industry where I'm in, it's not brought up anymore. I usually will ask, right? “Hey, where do you come from?” Just as a conversation starter, “What firm did you practice at? Did you practice in big law? Small law?”Someone once called it insignificant law to me, which hurts because I'm part of insignificant law. I get those and it's just to start a conversation, but when it's presented to me initially, “Hey, yeah, I was at Harvard,” unprompted. Or, “I went to Yale,” or went to whatever in the T-14, you're right, it's very off-putting. At least it's off-putting to me. Maybe if someone wants to tell me otherwise, online if you went to Harvard, and someone said, “Hey, I went to Harvard,” and that's how they started the conversation, and you enjoy it, then… so be it. But I'll tell you, it's a bit off-putting to me, Corey.Corey: It definitely seems it. I guess, on some level, I think it's probably rooted in some form of insecurity. Hmm, it's easy to think, “Oh, they're just completely full of themselves,” but that stuff doesn't spring fully formed from nowhere, like the forehead of some God. That stuff gets built into people. Like, the constant pressure of you are not good enough.Or if you've managed to go to one of those schools and graduate from it, great. The constant, like, “Not everyone can go here. You should feel honored.” It becomes, like, a cornerstone of their personality. For better or worse. Like, it made me more interesting adult if it made my 20s challenging. I don't have any big-name companies on my resume. Well, I do now because I make fun of one, but that's a separate problem entirely. It just isn't something I ever got to leverage, so I didn't.Matt: I feel that completely. I come from—again, someone once told me I worked in insignificant law. And if I ever write a book, that's what I'm going to call it is Insignificant Law. But I worked the small law firms, regional law firms, and these in Tallahassee and I worked in South Florida and nothing that anyone would probably recognize in conversation, right? So, it never became something I bring up.I just say, “I'm an attorney. I do these things,” if you ask me what I do. So, I think honestly, my personality, and probably the shitposting sprung out of that as well, where I just had a different thing to talk about. I didn't talk about the prestige. I talked about the practice, I talked about what I didn't like about the practice, I didn't talk about being on Wall Street doing these crazy deals, I talked about getting my ass kicked in Ponce, Florida, up in the panhandle. For me, I've got a chip on my shoulder, but a different kind of chip.Corey: It's amazing to me how many—well, let's calls this what we are: shitposters—I talk to where their brand and the way that they talk about their space is, I don't want to say rooted in trauma, but definitely built from a place of having some very specific chips on their shoulder. I mean, when I was running DevOps teams and as an engineer myself, I wound up continually tripping over the AWS bill of, “Ha, ha. Now, you get to pay your tax for not reading this voluminous documentation, and the fine print, and with all of the appendices, and the bibliography, and tracked down those references. Doesn't it suck to be you? Da da.” And finally, it was all right, I snapped. Okay. You want to play? Let's play.Matt: That's exactly right. There's, like, a meme going around. I think it actually saw from the accounting meme account, TB4—which is stellar—and it was like, “Ha, I'm laughing because it hurts.” And it's true. That's why we all laugh at the jokes, right?I'll make jokes about origination credit, which is always an issue in the legal industry. I make jokes about the toxic work environment, the partner saying, “Please fix,” at three o'clock in the morning. And we make fun of it because everyone's had to deal with it. Everyone's had to deal with it. And I will say that making fun of it brings light to it and hopefully changes the industry because we all can see how ridiculous it is. But at least at the very beginning, we all look at it and we say, “That's funny because it hurts.”Corey: There's an esprit de corps of shared suffering that I think emerges from folks who are in the trenches, and I think that the rise of—I mean some places called the micro-influencers, but that makes me want to just spit a rat when I hear it; I hate the term—but the rise of these niche personalities are because there are a bunch of in-jokes that you don't have to be very far in to appreciate and enjoy, but if you aren't in the space at all, they just make zero sense. Like when I go to family reunions and start ranting about EC2 instance pricing, I don't get to talk to too many people anymore because oh my God, I've become the drunk uncle I always wanted to be. Goal achieved.Matt: [laugh].Corey: You have to find the right audience.Matt: That's right. There is a term, I think coin—I think it was coined by Taylor Lorenz at Washington Post and it's called a nimcel, which is, like, a niche micro-influencer. It's the worst term I've ever heard in my entire life. The nimcel [laugh]. Sorry, Taylor, it's terrible.But so I don't want to call myself a nimcel. I guess I have a group of people that enjoy the content, but you are so right that the group of people, once you get it, you get it. And if you don't get it, you may think some parts of it—like, you can kind of piece things together, but it's not as funny. But there's plenty of litigation jokes I'll make—like, where I'm talking to the judge. It's always these hypothetical scenarios—and you can maybe find it funny.But if you're a litigator who's gotten their ass kicked by a judge in a state court that just does not like you, you are not a local, they don't like the way you're presenting yourself, they don't like your argument, and they just dig you into the ground, you laugh. You laugh because you're, like, I've been there. I've had—or on the flip, you're the attorney that watched your opposing counsel go through it, you're like, “I remember that.” And you're right, it really you get such a great reaction from these folks, such great feedback, and they love it. They absolutely love it. But you're right, if you're outside, you're like, “Eh, it's kind of funny, but I don't really get all of it.”Corey: My mother approaches it this way whenever she talks to me like I have no idea what you're talking about, but you seem to really know what you're talking about, so I'm proud of you. It's like, “No, Mom, that is, like, the worst combination of everything.” It's like, “Well, are you any good at this thing?” “No. But I'm a white man, so I'm going to assume yes and the world will agree with me until proven otherwise.” So yeah, maybe nuclear physics ain't for you in that scenario.But yeah, the idea of finding your people, finding your audience, before the rise of the internet, none of this stuff would have worked just because you live in a town; how many attorneys are really going to be within the sound of your voice, hearing these stories? Not to mention the fact that everyone knows everyone's business in some of those places, and oh, you can't really subtweet the one person because they're also in the room. The world changes.Matt: The world changes. I've never had this happen. So, when I really started to get aggressive on, like, Twitter, I had already left private practice; I was in-house at that point. And I've always envisioned, I've always, I always want to, like, go back to private practice for one case: to go into a courtroom in, like, Miami, Florida, and sit there and commiserate and tell the stories of people again like I used to do—just like what you're saying—and see what everyone says. Say, “Hey, I saw you on Twitter. Hey, I saw this story on Twitter.”But in the same breath, like, you can't talk like you talk online in person, to some degree, right? Like, I can't make fun of opposing counsel because the judge is right there and opposing counsel was right there, and I'm honestly, knowing my luck, I'm about to get my ass kicked by opposing counsel. So, I probably should watch myself in that courtroom.Corey: But I'm going to revise the shit out of this history when it comes time to do my tweet after the fact. “And then everybody clapped.”Matt: [laugh]. I found five dollars outside the courtroom.Corey: Exactly. I really want to thank you for spending so much time chatting with me. If people want to learn more and follow your amazing shitpost antics on the internet, where's the best place for them to do it?Matt: Corey it's been an absolute pleasure. Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, LinkedIn. For everything but LinkedIn: @ItsMattsLaw. LinkedIn, just find me by my name: Matt Margolis.Corey: And we will put links to all of it in the [show notes 00:33:04]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. It's appreciated.Matt: I have not laughed as hard in a very, very long time. Corey, thank you so much.Corey: Matt Margolis, Head of Community at Lawtrades. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, insulting comment that you've drafted the first time realized, oh wait, you're not literate, and then hired someone off of Lawtrades to help you write in an articulate fashion.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

ethics and the origins of it, understand ethics, bringing it back to how it is affecting our friendships, how it is affecting our society, and basically ultimately our lives. Ethics is philosophical and it deals, it concerns itself with conduct in questions of good and evil in right and wrong. The definition- Ethical; derived from the Greek word ethos, which means character, and from the word, Mores, which means customs. Together they combine to define how individuals choose to interact with one another. So let's make things better, create a better world, and try to understand the shenanigans that took place that created the whole basis for ethics. We also explore Greek and Roman influence on us to this day. What do we do with this information? Understanding how we got where we are now and where we are now is the key. There are a lot of weirdness, differences, and change we need to look at. Ethics 3 TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Hello, everybody. Welcome back. [00:00:01] Matt: Hello [00:00:02] Fawn: okay. Guess what? We're gonna continue on talking about ethics. [00:00:06] Matt: Oh dear [00:00:06] Fawn: ethics and the origins of it. We're gonna break it down little by little baby steps. Oh my goodness. there is a lot of noise outside. Sorry. It's a hot hot day. We have to have the windows open. You're gonna hear screeching, screeching cars and birds and screeching birds. [00:00:27] Matt: Exactly. [00:00:28] Fawn: And as soon as I said that the birds got quiet. Okay. So ethics where it came from. Well, the origins of it, we were starting to little baby steps, little bites, understand ethics, bringing it

About MattMatt is a Sr. Architect in Belfast, an AWS DevTools Hero, Serverless Architect, Author and conference speaker. He is focused on creating the right environment for empowered teams to rapidly deliver business value in a well-architected, sustainable and serverless-first way.You can usually find him sharing reusable, well architected, serverless patterns over at cdkpatterns.com or behind the scenes bringing CDK Day to life.Links Referenced: Previous guest appearance: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/slinging-cdk-knowledge-with-matt-coulter/ The CDK Book: https://thecdkbook.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/NIDeveloper TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. One of the best parts about, well I guess being me, is that I can hold opinions that are… well, I'm going to be polite and call them incendiary, and that's great because I usually like to back them in data. But what happens when things change? What happens when I learn new things?Well, do I hold on to that original opinion with two hands at a death grip or do I admit that I was wrong in my initial opinion about something? Let's find out. My guest today returns from earlier this year. Matt Coulter is a senior architect since he has been promoted at Liberty Mutual. Welcome back, and thanks for joining me.Matt: Yeah, thanks for inviting me back, especially to talk about this topic.Corey: Well, we spoke about it a fair bit at the beginning of the year. And if you're listening to this, and you haven't heard that show, it's not that necessary to go into; mostly it was me spouting uninformed opinions about the CDK—the Cloud Development Kit, for those who are unfamiliar—I think of it more or less as what if you could just structure your cloud resources using a programming language you claim to already know, but in practice, copy and paste from Stack Overflow like the rest of us? Matt, you probably have a better description of what the CDK is in practice.Matt: Yeah, so we like to say it's imperative code written in a declarative way, or declarative code written in an imperative way. Either way, it lets you write code that produces CloudFormation. So, it doesn't really matter what you write in your script; the point is, at the end of the day, you still have the CloudFormation template that comes out of it. So, the whole piece of it is that it's a developer experience, developer speed play, that if you're from a background that you're more used to writing a programming language than a YAML, you might actually enjoy using the CDK over writing straight CloudFormation or SAM.Corey: When I first kicked the tires on the CDK, my first initial obstacle—which I've struggled with in this industry for a bit—is that I'm just good enough of a programmer to get myself in trouble. Whenever I wind up having a problem that StackOverflow doesn't immediately shine a light on, my default solution is to resort to my weapon of choice, which is brute force. That sometimes works out, sometimes doesn't. And as I went through the CDK, a couple of times in service to a project that I'll explain shortly, I made a bunch of missteps with it. The first and most obvious one is that AWS claims publicly that it has support in a bunch of languages: .NET, Python, there's obviously TypeScript, there's Go support for it—I believe that went generally available—and I'm sure I'm missing one or two, I think? Aren't I?Matt: Yeah, it's: TypeScript, JavaScript, Python Java.Net, and Go. I think those are the currently supported languages.Corey: Java. That's the one that I keep forgetting. It's the block printing to the script that is basically Java cursive. The problem I run into, and this is true of most things in my experience, when a company says that we have deployed an SDK for all of the following languages, there is very clearly a first-class citizen language and then the rest that more or less drift along behind with varying degrees of fidelity. In my experience, when I tried it for the first time in Python, it was not a great experience for me.When I learned just enough JavaScript, and by extension TypeScript, to be dangerous, it worked a lot better. Or at least I could blame all the problems I ran into on my complete novice status when it comes to JavaScript and TypeScript at the time. Is that directionally aligned with what you've experienced, given that you work in a large company that uses this, and presumably, once you have more than, I don't know, two developers, you start to take on aspects of a polyglot shop no matter where you are, on some level?Matt: Yeah. So personally, I jump between Java, Python, and TypeScript whenever I'm writing projects. So, when it comes to the CDK, you'd assume I'd be using all three. I typically stick to TypeScript and that's just because personally, I've had the best experience using it. For anybody who doesn't know the way CDK works for all the languages, it's not that they have written a custom, like, SDK for each of these languages; it's a case of it uses a Node process underneath them and the language actually interacts with—it's like the compiled JavaScript version is basically what they all interact with.So, it means there are some limitations on what you can do in that language. I can't remember the full list, but it just means that it is native in all those languages, but there are certain features that you might be like, “Ah,” whereas, in TypeScript, you can just use all of TypeScript. And my first inclination was actually, I was using the Python one and I was having issues with some compiler errors and things that are just caused by that process. And it's something that talking in the cdk.dev Slack community—there is actually a very active—Corey: Which is wonderful, I will point out.Matt: [laugh]. Thank you. There is actually, like, an awesome Python community in there, but if you ask them, they would all ask for improvements to the language. So, personally if someone's new, I always recommend they start with TypeScript and then branch out as they learn the CDK so they can understand is this a me problem, or is this a problem caused by the implementation?Corey: From my perspective, I didn't do anything approaching that level of deep dive. I took a shortcut that I find has served me reasonably well in the course of my career, when I'm trying to do something in Python, and you pull up a tutorial—which I'm a big fan of reading experience reports, and blog posts, and here's how to get started—and they all have the same problem, which is step one, “Run npm install.” And that's “Hmm, you know, I don't recall that being a standard part of the Python tooling.” It's clearly designed and interpreted and contextualized through a lens of JavaScript. Let's remove that translation layer, let's remove any weird issues I'm going to have in that transpilation process, and just talk in the language it written in. Will this solve my problems? Oh, absolutely not, but it will remove a subset of them that I am certain to go blundering into like a small lost child trying to cross an eight-lane freeway.Matt: Yeah. I've heard a lot of people say the same thing. Because the CDK CLI is a Node process, you need it no matter what language you use. So, if they were distributing some kind of universal binary that just integrated with the languages, it would definitely solve a lot of people's issues with trying to combine languages at deploy time.Corey: One of the challenges that I've had as I go through the process of iterating on the project—but I guess I should probably describe it for those who have not been following along with my misadventures; I write blog posts about it from time to time because I need a toy problem to kick around sometimes because my consulting work is all advisory and I don't want to be a talking head-I have a Twitter client called lasttweetinaws.com. It's free; go and use it. It does all kinds of interesting things for authoring Twitter threads.And I wanted to deploy that to a bunch of different AWS regions, as it turns out, 20 or so at the moment. And that led to a lot of interesting projects and having to learn how to think about these things differently because no one sensible deploys an application simultaneously to what amounts to every AWS region, without canary testing, and having a phased rollout in the rest. But I'm reckless, and honestly, as said earlier, a bad programmer. So, that works out. And trying to find ways to make this all work and fit together led iteratively towards me discovering that the CDK was really kind of awesome for a lot of this.That said, there were definitely some fairly gnarly things I learned as I went through it, due in no small part to help I received from generous randos in the cdk.dev Slack team. And it's gotten to a point where it's working, and as an added bonus, I even mostly understand what he's doing, which is just kind of wild to me.Matt: It's one of those interesting things where because it's a programming language, you can use it out of the box the way it's designed to be used where you can just write your simple logic which generates your CloudFormation, or you can do whatever crazy logic you want to do on top of that to make your app work the way you want it to work. And providing you're not in a company like Liberty, where I'm going to do a code review, if no one's stopping you, you can do your crazy experiments. And if you understand that, it's good. But I do think something like the multi-region deploy, I mean, with CDK, if you'd have a construct, it takes in a variable that you can just say what the region is, so you can actually just write a for loop and pass it in, which does make things a lot easier than, I don't know, try to do it with a YAML, which you can pass in parameters, but you're going to get a lot more complicated a lot quicker.Corey: The approach that I took philosophically was I wrote everything in a region-agnostic way. And it would be instantiated and be told what region to run it in as an environment variable that CDK deploy was called. And then I just deploy 20 simultaneous stacks through GitHub Actions, which invoke custom runners that runs inside of a Lambda function. And that's just a relatively basic YAML file, thanks to the magic of GitHub Actions matrix jobs. So, it fires off 20 simultaneous processes and on every commit to the main branch, and then after about two-and-a-half minutes, it has been deployed globally everywhere and I get notified on anything that fails, which is always fun and exciting to learn those things.That has been, overall, just a really useful experiment and an experience because you're right, you could theoretically run this as a single CDK deploy and then wind up having an iterate through a list of regions. The challenge I have there is that unless I start getting into really convoluted asynchronous concurrency stuff, it feels like it'll just take forever. At two-and-a-half minutes a region times 20 regions, that's the better part of an hour on every deploy and no one's got that kind of patience. So, I wound up just parallelizing it a bit further up the stack. That said, I bet they are relatively straightforward ways, given the async is a big part of JavaScript, to do this simultaneously.Matt: One of the pieces of feedback I've seen about CDK is if you have multiple stacks in the same project, it'll deploy them one at a time. And that's just because it tries to understand the dependencies between the stacks and then it works out which one should go first. But a lot of people have said, “Well, I don't want that. If I have 20 stacks, I want all 20 to go at once the way you're saying.” And I have seen that people have been writing plugins to enable concurrent deploys with CDK out of the box. So, it may be something that it's not an out-of-the-box feature, but it might be something that you can pull in a community plug-in to actually make work.Corey: Most of my problems with it at this point are really problems with CloudFormation. CloudFormation does not support well, if at all, secure string parameters from the AWS Systems Manager parameter store, which is my default go-to for secret storage, and Secrets Manager is supported, but that also cost 40 cents a month per secret. And not for nothing, I don't really want to have all five secrets deployed to Secrets Manager in every region this thing is in. I don't really want to pay $20 a month for this basically free application, just to hold some secrets. So, I wound up talking to some folks in the Slack channel and what we came up with was, I have a centralized S3 bucket that has a JSON object that lives in there.It's only accessible from the deployment role, and it grabs that at deploy time and stuffs it into environment variables when it pushes these things out. That's the only stateful part of all of this. And it felt like that is, on some level, a pattern that a lot of people would benefit from if it had better native support. But the counterargument that if you're only deploying to one or two regions, then Secrets Manager is the right answer for a lot of this and it's not that big of a deal.Matt: Yeah. And it's another one of those things, if you're deploying in Liberty, we'll say, “Well, your secret is unencrypted at runtime, so you probably need a KMS key involved in that,” which as you know, the costs of KMS, it depends on if it's a personal solution or if it's something for, like, a Fortune 100 company. And if it's personal solution, I mean, what you're saying sounds great that it's IAM restricted in S3, and then that way only at deploy time can be read; it actually could be a custom construct that someone can build and publish out there to the construct library—or the construct hub, I should say.Corey: To be clear, the reason I'm okay with this, from a security perspective is one, this is in a dedicated AWS account. This is the only thing that lives in that account. And two, the only API credentials we're talking about are the application-specific credentials for this Twitter client when it winds up talking to the Twitter API. Basically, if you get access to these and are able to steal them and deploy somewhere else, you get no access to customer data, you get—or user data because this is not charge for anything—you get no access to things that have been sent out; all you get to do is submit tweets to Twitter and it'll have the string ‘Last Tweet in AWS' as your client, rather than whatever normal client you would use. It's not exactly what we'd call a high-value target because all the sensitive to a user data lives in local storage in their browser. It is fully stateless.Matt: Yeah, so this is what I mean. Like, it's the difference in what you're using your app for. Perfect case of, you can just go into the Twitter app and just withdraw those credentials and do it again if something happens, whereas as I say, if you're building it for Liberty, that it will not pass a lot of our Well-Architected reviews, just for that reason.Corey: If I were going to go and deploy this at a more, I guess, locked down environment, I would be tempted to find alternative approaches such as having it stored encrypted at rest via KMS in S3 is one option. So, is having global DynamoDB tables that wind up grabbing those things, even grabbing it at runtime if necessary. There are ways to make that credential more secure at rest. It's just, I look at this from a real-world perspective of what is the actual attack surface on this, and I have a really hard time just identifying anything that is going to be meaningful with regard to an exploit. If you're listening to this and have a lot of thoughts on that matter, please reach out I'm willing to learn and change my opinion on things.Matt: One thing I will say about the Dynamo approach you mentioned, I'm not sure everybody knows this, but inside the same Dynamo table, you can scope down a row. You can be, like, “This row and this field in this row can only be accessed from this one Lambda function.” So, there's a lot of really awesome security features inside DynamoDB that I don't think most people take advantage of, but they open up a lot of options for simplicity.Corey: Is that tied to the very recent announcement about Lambda getting SourceArn as a condition key? In other words, you can say, “This specific Lambda function,” as opposed to, “A Lambda in this account?” Like that was a relatively recent Advent that I haven't fully explored the nuances of.Matt: Yeah, like, that has opened a lot of doors. I mean, the Dynamo being able to be locked out in your row has been around for a while, but the new Lambda from SourceArn is awesome because, yeah, as you say, you can literally say this thing, as opposed to, you have to start going into tags, or you have to start going into something else to find it.Corey: So, I want to talk about something you just alluded to, which is the Well-Architected Framework. And initially, when it launched, it was a whole framework, and AWS made a lot of noise about it on keynote stages, as they are want to do. And then later, they created a quote-unquote, “Well-Architected Tool,” which let's be very direct, it's the checkbox survey form, at least the last time I looked at it. And they now have the six pillars of the Well-Architected Framework where they talk about things like security, cost, sustainability is the new pillar, I don't know, absorbency, or whatever the remainders are. I can't think of them off the top of my head. How does that map to your experience with the CDK?Matt: Yeah, so out of the box, the CDK from day one was designed to have sensible defaults. And that's why a lot of the things you deploy have opinions. I talked to a couple of the Heroes and they were like, “I wish it had less opinions.” But that's why whenever you deploy something, it's got a bunch of configuration already in there. For me, in the CDK, whenever I use constructs, or stacks, or deploying anything in the CDK, I always build it in a well-architected way.And that's such a loaded sentence whenever you say the word ‘well-architected,' that people go, “What do you mean?” And that's where I go through the six pillars. And in Liberty, we have a process, it used to be called SCORP because it was five pillars, but not SCORPS [laugh] because they added sustainability. But that's where for every stack, we'll go through it and we'll be like, “Okay, let's have the discussion.” And we will use the tool that you mentioned, I mean, the tool, as you say, it's a bunch of tick boxes with a text box, but the idea is we'll get in a room and as we build the starter patterns or these pieces of infrastructure that people are going to reuse, we'll run the well-architected review against the framework before anybody gets to generate it.And then we can say, out of the box, if you generate this thing, these are the pros and cons against the Well-Architected Framework of what you're getting. Because we can't make it a hundred percent bulletproof for your use case because we don't know it, but we can tell you out of the box, what it does. And then that way, you can keep building so they start off with something that is well documented how well architected it is, and then you can start having—it makes it a lot easier to have those conversations as they go forward. Because you just have to talk about the delta as they start adding their own code. Then you can and you go, “Okay, you've added these 20 lines. Let's talk about what they do.” And that's why I always think you can do a strong connection between infrastructure-as-code and well architected.Corey: As I look through the actual six pillars of the Well-Architected Framework: sustainability, cost optimization, performance, efficiency, reliability, security, and operational excellence, as I think through the nature of what this shitpost thread Twitter client is, I am reasonably confident across all of those pillars. I mean, first off, when it comes to the cost optimization pillar, please, don't come to my house and tell me how that works. Yeah, obnoxiously the security pillar is sort of the thing that winds up causing a problem for this because this is an account deployed by Control Tower. And when I was getting this all set up, my monthly cost for this thing was something like a dollar in charges and then another sixteen dollars for the AWS config rule evaluations on all of the deploys, which is… it just feels like a tax on going about your business, but fine, whatever. Cost and sustainability, from my perspective, also tend to be hand-in-glove when it comes to this stuff.When no one is using the client, it is not taking up any compute resources, it has no carbon footprint of which to speak, by my understanding, it's very hard to optimize this down further from a sustainability perspective without barging my way into the middle of an AWS negotiation with one of its power companies.Matt: So, for everyone listening, watch as we do a live well-architected review because—Corey: Oh yeah, I expect—Matt: —this is what they are. [laugh].Corey: You joke; we should do this on Twitter one of these days. I think would be a fantastic conversation. Or Twitch, or whatever the kids are using these days. Yeah.Matt: Yeah.Corey: And again, if so much of it, too, is thinking about the context. Security, you work for one of the world's largest insurance companies. I shitpost for a living. The relative access and consequences of screwing up the security on this are nowhere near equivalent. And I think that's something that often gets lost, per the perfect be the enemy of the good.Matt: Yeah that's why, unfortunately, the Well-Architected Tool is quite loose. So, that's why they have the Well-Architected Framework, which is, there's a white paper that just covers anything which is quite big, and then they wrote specific lenses for, like, serverless or other use cases that are shorter. And then when you do a well-architected review, it's like loose on, sort of like, how are you applying the principles of well-architected. And the conversation that we just had about security, so you would write that down in the box and be, like, “Okay, so I understand if anybody gets this credential, it means they can post this Last Tweet in AWS, and that's okay.”Corey: The client, not the Twitter account, to be clear.Matt: Yeah. So, that's okay. That's what you just mark down in the well-architected review. And then if we go to day one on the future, you can compare it and we can go, “Oh. Okay, so last time, you said this,” and you can go, “Well, actually, I decided to—” or you just keep it as a note.Corey: “We pivoted. We're a bank now.” Yeah.Matt: [laugh]. So, that's where—we do more than tweets now. We decided to do microtransactions through cryptocurrency over Twitter. I don't know but if you—Corey: And that ends this conversation. No no. [laugh].Matt: [laugh]. But yeah, so if something changes, that's what the well-architected reviews for. It's about facilitating the conversation between the architect and the engineer. That's all it is.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friend EnterpriseDB. EnterpriseDB has been powering enterprise applications with PostgreSQL for 15 years. And now EnterpriseDB has you covered wherever you deploy PostgreSQL on-premises, private cloud, and they just announced a fully-managed service on AWS and Azure called BigAnimal, all one word. Don't leave managing your database to your cloud vendor because they're too busy launching another half-dozen managed databases to focus on any one of them that they didn't build themselves. Instead, work with the experts over at EnterpriseDB. They can save you time and money, they can even help you migrate legacy applications—including Oracle—to the cloud. To learn more, try BigAnimal for free. Go to biganimal.com/snark, and tell them Corey sent you.Corey: And the lens is also helpful in that this is a serverless application. So, we're going to view it through that lens, which is great because the original version of the Well-Architected Tool is, “Oh, you built this thing entirely in Lambda? Have you bought some reserved instances for it?” And it's, yeah, why do I feel like I have to explain to AWS how their own systems work? This makes it a lot more streamlined and talks about this, though, it still does struggle with the concept of—in my case—a stateless app. That is still something that I think is not the common path. Imagine that: my code is also non-traditional. Who knew?Matt: Who knew? The one thing that's good about it, if anybody doesn't know, they just updated the serverless lens about, I don't know, a week or two ago. So, they added in a bunch of more use cases. So, if you've read it six months ago, or even three months ago, go back and reread it because they spent a good year updating it.Corey: Thank you for telling me that. That will of course wind up in next week's issue of Last Week in AWS. You can go back and look at the archives and figure out what week record of this then. Good work. One thing that I have learned as well as of yesterday, as it turns out, before we wound up having this recording—obviously because yesterday generally tends to come before today, that is a universal truism—is it I had to do a bit of refactoring.Because what I learned when I was in New York live-tweeting the AWS Summit, is that the Route 53 latency record works based upon where your DNS server is. Yeah, that makes sense. I use Tailscale and wind up using my Pi-hole, which lives back in my house in San Francisco. Yeah, I was always getting us-west-1 from across the country. Cool.For those weird edge cases like me—because this is not the common case—how do I force a local region? Ah, I'll give it its own individual region prepend as a subdomain. Getting that to work with both the global lasttweetinaws.com domain as well as the subdomain on API Gateway through the CDK was not obvious on how to do it.Randall Hunt over at Caylent was awfully generous and came up with a proof-of-concept in about three minutes because he's Randall, and that was extraordinarily helpful. But a challenge I ran into was that the CDK deploy would fail because the way that CloudFormation was rendered in the way it was trying to do stuff, “Oh, that already has that domain affiliated in a different way.” I had to do a CDK destroy then a CDK deploy for each one. Now, not the end of the world, but it got me thinking, everything that I see around the CDK more or less distills down to either greenfield or a day one experience. That's great, but throw it all away and start over is often not what you get to do.And even though Amazon says it's always day one, those of us in, you know, real companies don't get to just treat everything as brand new and throw away everything older than 18 months. What is the day two experience looking like for you? Because you clearly have a legacy business. By legacy, I of course, use it in the condescending engineering term that means it makes actual money, rather than just telling really good stories to venture capitalists for 20 years.Matt: Yeah. We still have mainframes running that make a lot of money. So, I don't mock legacy at all.Corey: “What's that piece of crap do?” “Well, about $4 billion a year in revenue. Perhaps show some respect.” It's a common refrain.Matt: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, anyone listening, don't mock legacy because as Corey says, it is running the business. But for us when it comes to day two, it's something that I'm actually really passionate about this in general because it is really easy. Like I did it with CDK patterns, it's really easy to come out and be like, “Okay, we're going to create a bunch of starter patterns, or quickstarts”—or whatever flavor that you came up with—“And then you're going to deploy this thing, and we're going to have you in production and 30 seconds.” But even day one later that day—not even necessarily day two—it depends on who it was that deployed it and how long they've been using AWS.So, you hear these stories of people who deployed something to experiment, and they either forget to delete, it cost them a lot of money or they tried to change it and it breaks because they didn't understand what was in it. And this is where the community starts to diverge in their opinions on what AWS CDK should be. There's a lot of people who think that at the minute CDK, even if you create an abstraction in a construct, even if I create a construct and put it in the construct library that you get to use, it still unravels and deploys as part of your deploy. So, everything that's associated with it, you don't own and you technically need to understand that at some point because it might, in theory, break. Whereas there's a lot of people who think, “Okay, the CDK needs to go server side and an abstraction needs to stay an abstraction in the cloud. And then that way, if somebody is looking at a 20-line CDK construct or stack, then it stays 20 lines. It never unravels to something crazy underneath.”I mean, that's one pro tip thing. It'd be awesome if that could work. I'm not sure how the support for that would work from a—if you've got something running on the cloud, I'm pretty sure AWS [laugh] aren't going to jump on a call to support some construct that I deployed, so I'm not sure how that will work in the open-source sense. But what we're doing at Liberty is the other way. So, I mean, we famously have things like the software accelerator that lets you pick a pattern or create your pipelines and you're deployed, but now what we're doing is we're building a lot of telemetry and automated information around what you deployed so that way—and it's all based on Well-Architected, common theme. So, that way, what you can do is you can go into [crosstalk 00:26:07]—Corey: It's partially [unintelligible 00:26:07], and partially at a glance, figure out okay, are there some things that can be easily remediated as we basically shift that whole thing left?Matt: Yeah, so if you deploy something, and it should be good the second you deploy it, but then you start making changes. Because you're Corey, you just start adding some stuff and you deploy it. And if it's really bad, it won't deploy. Like, that's the Liberty setup. There's a bunch of rules that all go, “Okay, that's really bad. That'll cause damage to customers.”But there's a large gap between bad and good that people don't really understand the difference that can cost a lot of money or can cause a lot of grief for developers because they go down the wrong path. So, that's why what we're now building is, after you deploy, there's a dashboard that'll just come up and be like, “Hey, we've noticed that your Lambda function has too little memory. It's going to be slow. You're going to have bad cold starts.” Or you know, things like that.The knowledge that I have had the gain through hard fighting over the past couple of years putting it into automation, and that way, combined with the well-architected reviews, you actually get me sitting in a call going, “Okay, let's talk about what you're building,” that hopefully guides people the right way. But I still think there's so much more we can do for day two because even if you deploy the best solution today, six months from now, AWS are releasing ten new services that make it easier to do what you just did. So, someone also needs to build something that shows you the delta to get to the best. And that would involve AWS or somebody thinking cohesively, like, these are how we use our products. And I don't think there's a market for it as a third-party company, unfortunately, but I do think that's where we need to get to, that at day two somebody can give—the way we're trying to do for Liberty—advice, automated that says, “I see what you're doing, but it would be better if you did this instead.”Corey: Yeah, I definitely want to spend more time thinking about these things and analyzing how we wind up addressing them and how we think about them going forward. I learned a lot of these lessons over a decade ago. I was fairly deep into using Puppet, and came to the fair and balanced conclusion that Puppet was a steaming piece of crap. So, the solution was that I was one of the very early developers behind SaltStack, which was going to do everything right. And it was and it was awesome and it was glorious, right up until I saw an environment deployed by someone else who was not as familiar with the tool as I was, at which point I realized hell is other people's use cases.And the way that they contextualize these things, you craft a finely balanced torque wrench, it's a thing of beauty, and people complain about the crappy hammer. “You're holding it wrong. No, don't do it that way.” So, I have an awful lot of sympathy for people building platform-level tooling like this, where it works super well for the use case that they're in, but not necessarily… they're not necessarily aligned in other ways. It's a very hard nut to crack.Matt: Yeah. And like, even as you mentioned earlier, if you take one piece of AWS, for example, API Gateway—and I love the API Gateway team; if you're listening, don't hate on me—but there's, like, 47,000 different ways you can deploy an API Gateway. And the CDK has to cover all of those, it would be a lot easier if there was less ways that you could deploy the thing and then you can start crafting user experiences on a platform. But whenever you start thinking that every AWS component is kind of the same, like think of the amount of ways you're can deploy a Lambda function now, or think of the, like, containers. I'll not even go into [laugh] the different ways to run containers.If you're building a platform, either you support it all and then it sort of gets quite generic-y, or you're going to do, like, what serverless cloud are doing though, like Jeremy Daly is building this unique experience that's like, “Okay, the code is going to build the infrastructure, so just build a website, and we'll do it all behind it.” And I think they're really interesting because they're sort of opposites, in that one doesn't want to support everything, but should theoretically, for their slice of customers, be awesome, and then the other ones, like, “Well, let's see what you're going to do. Let's have a go at it and I should hopefully support it.”Corey: I think that there's so much that can be done on this. But before we wind up calling it an episode, I had one further question that I wanted to explore around the recent results of the community CDK survey that I believe is a quarterly event. And I read the analysis on this, and I talked about it briefly in the newsletter, but it talks about adoption and a few other aspects of it. And one of the big things it looks at is the number of people who are contributing to the CDK in an open-source context. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way when I think that, well, this is a tool that helps me build out cloud infrastructure; me having to contribute code to this thing at all is something of a bug, whereas yeah, I want this thing to work out super well—Docker is open-source, but you'll never see me contributing things to Docker ever, as a pull request, because it does, as it says on the tin; I don't have any problems that I'm aware of that, ooh, it should do this instead. I mean, I have opinions on that, but those aren't pull requests; those are complete, you know, shifts in product strategy, which it turns out is not quite done on GitHub.Matt: So, it's funny I, a while ago, was talking to a lad who was the person who came up with the idea for the CDK. And CDK is pretty much the open-source project for AWS if you look at what they have. And the thought behind it, it's meant to evolve into what people want and need. So yes, there is a product manager in AWS, and there's a team fully dedicated to building it, but the ultimate aspiration was always it should be bigger than AWS and it should be community-driven. Now personally, I'm not sure—like you just said it—what the incentive is, given that right now CDK only works with CloudFormation, which means that you are directly helping with an AWS tool, but it does give me hope for, like, their CDK for Terraform, and their CDK for Kubernetes, and there's other flavors based on the same technology as AWS CDK that potentially could have a thriving open-source community because they work across all the clouds. So, it might make more sense for people to jump in there.Corey: Yeah, I don't necessarily think that there's a strong value proposition as it stands today for the idea of the CDK becoming something that works across other cloud providers. I know it technically has the capability, but if I think that Python isn't quite a first-class experience, I don't even want to imagine what other providers are going to look like from that particular context.Matt: Yeah, and that's from what I understand, I haven't personally jumped into the CDK for Terraform and we didn't talk about it here, but in CDK, you get your different levels of construct. And is, like, a CloudFormation-level construct, so everything that's in there directly maps to a property in CloudFormation, and then L2 is AWS's opinion on safe defaults, and then L3 is when someone like me comes along and turns it into something that you may find useful. So, it's a pattern. As far as I know, CDK for Terraform is still on L1. They haven't got the rich collection—Corey: And L4 is just hiring you as a consultant—Matt: [laugh].Corey: —to come in fix my nonsense for me?Matt: [laugh]. That's it. L4 could be Pulumi recently announced that you can use AWS CDK constructs inside it. But I think it's one of those things where the constructs, if they can move across these different tools the way AWS CDK constructs now work inside Pulumi, and there's a beta version that works inside CDK for Terraform, then it may or may not make sense for people to contribute to this stuff because we're not building at a higher level. It's just the vision is hard for most people to get clear in their head because it needs articulated and told as a clear strategy.And then, you know, as you said, it is an AWS product strategy, so I'm not sure what you get back by contributing to the project, other than, like, Thorsten—I should say, so Thorsten who wrote the book with me, he is the number three contributor, I think, to the CDK. And that's just because he is such a big user of it that if he sees something that annoys him, he just comes in and tries to fix it. So, the benefit is, he gets to use the tool. But he is a super user, so I'm not sure, outside of super users, what the use case is.Corey: I really want to thank you for, I want to say spending as much time talking to me about this stuff as you have, but that doesn't really go far enough. Because so much of how I think about this invariably winds up linking back to things that you have done and have been advocating for in that community for such a long time. If it's not you personally, just, like, your fingerprints are all over this thing. So, it's one of those areas where the entire software developer ecosystem is really built on the shoulders of others who have done a lot of work that came before. Often you don't get any visibility of who those people are, so it's interesting whenever I get to talk to someone whose work I have directly built upon that I get to say thank you. So, thank you for this. I really do appreciate how much more straightforward a lot of this is than my previous approach of clicking in the console and then lying about it to provision infrastructure.Matt: Oh, no worries. Thank you for the thank you. I mean, at the end of the day, all of this stuff is just—it helps me as much as it helps everybody else, and we're all trying to do make everything quicker for ourselves, at the end of the day.Corey: If people want to learn more about what you're up to, where's the best place to find you these days? They can always take a job at Liberty; I hear good things about it.Matt: Yeah, we're always looking for people at Liberty, so come look up our careers. But Twitter is always the best place. So, I'm @NIDeveloper on Twitter. You should find me pretty quickly, or just type Matt Coulter into Google, you'll get me.Corey: I like it. It's always good when it's like, “Oh, I'm the top Google result for my own name.” On some level, that becomes an interesting thing. Some folks into it super well, John Smith has some challenges, but you know, most people are somewhere in the middle of that.Matt: I didn't used to be number one, but there's a guy called the Kangaroo Kid in Australia, who is, like, a stunt driver, who was number one, and [laugh] I always thought it was funny if people googled and got him and thought it was me. So, it's not anymore.Corey: Thank you again for, I guess, all that you do. And of course, taking the time to suffer my slings and arrows as I continue to revise my opinion of the CDK upward.Matt: No worries. Thank you for having me.Corey: Matt Coulter, senior architect at Liberty Mutual. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and leave an angry comment as well that will not actually work because it has to be transpiled through a JavaScript engine first.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Many of you have been asking for it and here it is: the return of Matt (@beermatter), Simon (@beeryviews) and Neil (@thelowendbeery) after a 15 month extended hiatus.

How can a compliment open the doors to friendship or even save someone's life? We discuss in this episode of "The Art of the Compliment" as we understand the ways to establish joy, kindness, and sincerity and see how a compliment is an invitation to a beautiful friendship. What is the difference between COMPLIMENT and COMPLEMENT? We discuss this question and much more. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: you complete me Hello? Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Are you ready for a very intense, not intense in a negative way, but an in depth topic, a topic I'm actually going to teach a course on [00:00:14] Matt: super serious. [00:00:16] Fawn: It's not super serious, but it has a lot of moving parts and it's quite deep actually. [00:00:22] Matt: Would you it more nuanced?. [00:00:23] Fawn: I don't like that word, but it's the art of the compliment. [00:00:32] Matt: Oh, dear. [00:00:32] Fawn: Much like when you come into our home and all of the different homes we've had since the big house we used to own that, you know, through the pitfalls of society, went to hell and ever since then, we've been so gunshy. Ugh, gunshy. We've been so resistant on owning property ever again because of what happened in the financial crisis some years ago, that is, seems to be happening again. But whatever, we've moved a lot since then, and it's never been a place that's been ours, it's been some rentals and some of them have been ugly, depressing, just ugly , gray. It started with the first apartment we had after we lost the house. it was Valentine's day. We've said this story before. Sorry, but quick refresher. It was Valentine's day. Matt had this job with this horrible person there that was stressing him out so much. It was awful. It was horrible. It was Valentine's day. And. I was teaching our little, little, little girls and I decided, all right, let's do an art project. We cut hundreds of hearts out of different kinds of paper, different colors, everything. And then I got like sewing thread and I attached them to the hearts and I hung them on the ceiling. I taped them on the ceiling in the entryway. So when Matt came home, he had to walk through this hall of hearts. So many hearts and they were low enough where his

On Part One of this two-part series, you were introduced to Matt and Brian from the ACCEL Gaming Division. We discussed their background as it pertains to blockchain and gaming, involvement with ACCEL as well as P2E Gaming and their use of and integration of NFTs.On today's episode of the Podcast, Scott, Eric and Ryan welcome back Matt from the ACCEL Gaming Division to discuss how P2E Gaming, NFTs, and two exclusive projects that the ACCEL Gaming Division are working on!-----------------------------------------Episode Transcript:[Scott] On today's episode of the ACCEL Podcast, we dive deeper into the world of blockchain games and their use in the NFT World. As always, my name is Scott and I am Eric and I'm Ryan. You're listening to the ACCEL Podcast defining a decentralized view future, One listen at a time.[Scott] Thanks for tuning into part two of our series on blockchain gaming. We wanted to do something a little different this time with regards to putting the podcast together, and what we came up with was to survey the community or rather solicit questions on topics of P2E Gaming, Play-to-Earn Gaming and their use and integration with NFTs. [Ryan] So Matt, I wanted to welcome you back onto the ACCEL Podcast. How are we doing? [Matt]Good, pretty good. Thanks for having me. [Ryan] Always our pleasure. But right out the gate I feel like we've got to set the record straight as one of the leads of the ACCEL gaming division. What kind of games do you like to play? [Matt] Honestly, I like hard games. I've always been a big fan of platformers. My favorite game when I was young was Sonic. Still to this day I also love RPGs. I played most of the Final Fantasy series and a lot of the current very modern RPGs. I'm currently playing Eldon Ring. I think it's an absolute masterpiece and I'm honestly up for anything that seems some sort of a challenge or a good build up on an RPG element. [Eric] So Matt, I wanted to go back to the basics from our earlier episode in relation to what P2E or Play-to-Earn games are on. Maybe you could give us some examples of the P2E Games, what blockchains they exist on, and maybe some games that currently aren't in the space that you think could come to the blockchain. [Matt] I think the Play-to-Earn model, even though not formally it has existed for the longest time. And just calling out to our previous example. In the previous episode, RuneScape was a game that people actually started trading items for your money very long ago. And then that model was also formally implemented in Diablo Three and casually seen in World Warcraft, where it was a bit more informal. So the P2E aspect of trading time for some reward. Usually money has existed for the longest time. You can call on online casinos, online card and poker platforms, et cetera. At least those would be most of the games that would be outside of the space. And if we were to go inside the space, you have a lot of gains that have existed for a while. You have mostly yield farming gains, kind of like Axie Infinity, Crypto Cars, Bomb Crypto. A lot of these have very good options as well, and I think it's gotten pretty popular these days, so those are great examples. [Eric] So my question, can you be more type specific. In your opinion, what are the best blockchains or the best platforms that relate to the P2E Games, which makes it the easiest to navigate. [Matt] I would say anything that's currently built upon the most mainstream platforms, like you have Ripple, you have Ethereum, you have Bitcoin, which not a lot of games are tied to. Most of them are tied to Ethereum and Ripple. So I would look into something with that. You also have BNB and other big options, and it generally is going to be tied to whatever the devs think is the most stable platform to build upon. [Eric] All right, so now that you touched upon with the devs, in a devs opinion, let's say, or in your own opinion, if you're acting as a Dev, what would be the most profitable? [Matt] I would say just not to give out names because I would get burned for that. But whichever has the most potential for growth, because as the game grows, as the community grows, as the base grows, so does everything else tied to it, the tokens, the rewards, and everything gets better. So whatever is going to have the biggest room to grow is going to be the thing that's going to give the most returns. [Scott] So I guess it kind of follow up question of that is, I completely understand that. I think we see this craze with there being talk about Solana and Matic being big for gaming, but the big thing is for it to be scalable. Can you kind of give us a little bit of an explanation how these P2E Games are kind of profitable for the developers, even going back to the online poker and stuff like that, how do you actually make money off of it? And how is it that you're not throwing money at making these games that just don't have any returns on them? [Matt] Yeah, it usually comes down to how you model the economy of the game itself. For example, the real money trading market and Diablo Three actually had a transaction Commission for every buy and every sale. So that is also true with a lot of the current crypto games. There is a transaction fee that is being used in every single transaction by yourself. Kind of like being repetitive here, but that's usually how devs can still hold a pool of the big amount of those resources to make sure that they don't run out, to make sure that they can scale over time to make sure that tokens don't get overcapped and to its own. It's similar to how every company operates when you're first starting out in a company, you're always going to have some sort of shareholding because you're invested in the project and they can't really pay you a full salary. So they pay you in equity that gets you involved. And that makes you be sure that if the company does well and it scales, then so is going to be your share. [Scott] That makes sense. So it's all about kind of making sure at the early stages you're bringing in the right people and then making sure you have the right backing. I guess that kind of ties into what my next question would kind of be. And it's a commonly asked question that we see a lot over in the ACCEL community is how does P2E Games work in attracting people that aren't currently interested in the crypto space? Are you seeing kind of trends that are starting, that are really kind of pushing for that game, by experience, by outside investors that maybe might be involved in investing, but not in crypto or even individuals that might not invest at all? [Matt] I would like to break that into different viewpoints for different kinds of profiles. First, as an investor, why would this be like an important thing to you? Because as an investor, like crypto projects actually have a very good standpoint in the fact that they can actually have a bigger growth than most of traditional investments. So it's a very attractive market to get into. Also, as the game skills, as the community scales, you can also bring a lot of other things to the table where we touched a bit on the last episode about things like fractal ownership. So you don't even have to bring money all the time. You don't have to bring funding on the time. Maybe you own your musician, you want to stay a part of your music. Ownerships are all right. So you can get people that get that NFT can get royalties, and there are so many other valuable things that you can actually just convert into this game or market. And then from the player's side, obviously most of the people you have people that have been in crypto for a while, and you have people that have games for a while. For those who have games for a while, like me, it's really cool because now I can actually sit for hours in front of a screen, play, be good at a game and actually get something out of it, rather than my mom telling me to go to bed. So that's from one side and then you have the other side, which is the people that are in crypto who usually are more into the investment side, they actually have a fun way of interacting with their tokens, a fun way of watching those stakes and rewards and investments grow in a way that you're more of an active participant into everything. And it's a bit fun rather than just sitting there and watching candles on a chart. Not that's a bad thing, but there's more to life than that. [Ryan] So Matt, I wanted to backtrack for a moment and specifically discuss the earn in Play-to-Earn games. Could you discuss how and what exactly players earn in these games and how NFTs come into play? [Matt] Absolutely. Well, the earned part of any interaction that involves real money is done through tokens. 99% of the time is done through tokens. When you go to the horse tracking bed. Like you get this little slips of paper that you can later and cash in if you win. When you go to the casino, you get chips that you can cash in if you win. And sort of every single game has that mechanic built in where you win tokens inside the game and then you convert your tokens to get outside of the game. And this draws a very strong parallel with how everything in the physical world currently works. So the model is not really that different. And where do NFTs come into play here? A lot of these can usually be done or used as collection based items of a Rarity based items. And you can hold these NFTs that would be implemented into the game. And as the NFT or the usage of the character or the item or anything that it is gets more popular and more popular and it increases in value because the community perceives it to be rare or to be more valuable than others. That's a really good way for people to get involved is like, if you have the sense that an NFT is going to become popular, you can get it minted early and then when people use it, when it becomes popular, and what increases value and someone wants to rent it off of you or someone wants to permanently buy it off of you, it'll most likely have increased in value from when you brought it in. [Eric] So Matt, touching on NFTs and regarding NFTs because we know how huge they are now in the crypto space, how they function within the P2E Garning model. Could you talk a little bit about that? And ACCEL's recent acquisition of the Soldiers of the Metaverse NFT collection and how the SOTM NFTs will be tied into ACCEL and What I'm starting to hear their Mortal Kombat style P2E Game that is currently in their development, which I know you have a tremendous impact on. [Matt] Oh yeah, it's been such a fun time to work on the model for the Satin acquisition. And I think you have the basics, which not all of the NFT's are currently implemented in the game. We have a decent line up of characters, but not all of them as of yet. So the NFT in itself will increase in value as the game increases in popularity. Because who doesn't want to own a very rare Batman comic? If you're into comics, it's sort of the same community perception that makes you geo cards, rare, magic cards rare, like comic books are very rare or old collectibles, et cetera. Those things are very important because they tie back to someone's ability to own the NFT, believe in the project, but not necessarily play the game. There's people that don't like fighting style games. There's people that maybe they didn't like how complicated certain inputs might be, or they might not be their favorite time type of game. So that allows and gives people the flexibility to have something sticked into the game, not necessarily have to play it because you don't like the mechanics of the game itself, and then you can still participate somewhat into how everything's going to go up into the game. [Eric] So, Matt, if it's possible to could you just elaborate a little bit on the beta access in relation to the NFTs? [Matt] Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's something that has come up recently. The game is currently in beta access. We're working with a limited pool of people that are currently testing the game and helping out with ironing the bugs and making sure that we find anything that might be exploitable, et cetera. Because when you're going to stake tokens into a game, you want to make sure that everything is stable and fair as possible. The beta access, I think, has been going on, not for too long. It's still going to be out there for a bit. So if someone wants to get involved, I think it would be a good idea to look up the project. And obviously as the game goes on and it moves to like a pretty lease sort of endpoint, all the other questions are going to be answered over time. Right now, I can tell you I've actually played it and it's really fun. And the mechanics, at least the fighting game mechanics are really solid, not great with inputs, but that didn't stop me from actually just getting a combo or two in. [Ryan] Matt, that's good stuff. That's good stuff. But what if I'm not interested in playing this game? So is there an incentive to purchase and hold one of the Soldiers NFTs if I'm not interested in playing this game? Yeah, there would be, because for the same reason that I own a big ass Batman hand painting, because it's more related to how people perceive the value of the community around the game itself, rather than you just playing the game. There's a whole bunch of people that have a million posters or a lot of things, and I'm not good at drawing, but it's not going to stop me from going out and investing in something that I believe is very well drawn and stuff like that, because as I said before, it allows me to participate in something and being a part in something without actually having to play it. If I own a soldier and the game becomes popular, that's also going to benefit me because my soldiers both the Mint price if it were to be reissued or new soldiers were to be issued, and the acquisition price for my own NFT as well is going to go up. So even if I don't play, there are still ways for me to benefit off of the project. [Scott] So I guess, Matt, my next question would kind of be for you. We brought in a developer recently that was added to the team that kind of specializes in staking pool build out. And one of the things he does is NFT building out for staking pools. And it's kind of a new concept that's really starting to catch on. And with passive income being a huge part of ACCEL, can you kind of elaborate a little bit on how these NFT Staking pools work and what you kind of see them doing in the future? [Matt] Yes, I think I am not an expert in the topic, but honestly, it's one of the trends that I've seen come up a lot recently. And the idea of an Ft staking, if I'm not mistaken, would be among the lines of something similar to rent, kind of like you can put your entity out there and people can use it. And obviously, for every win that the character has, you get a bit of a share. And that is also true for other games where you actually are the owner of something, but you still get royalties if someone else rents it out for usage. And a common topic that comes to mind for that is, again, just the RMT market and Diablo Three, where not only you could purchase weapons, you could actually just borrow them for a day, but you have a lot of these very good options to own something and not having to sell it for someone else to be able to use it. And at the same time, given that you didn't have to sell it, you also were able to accrue, one might say rent or profit off of it, kind of like in the horse track how the jockey isn't really the one that owns the horse. So the guy that owns the horse still gets profits if the horse wins and the jockey get profits if the horse wins. So it's sort of like this mixed ownership model that allows people, as we said before, people that might not have zero interest in playing the game. They can stake an NFT that is actually currently tied into the game for people that do want to play the game but may not have an NFT ready at the moment for them to be able to play, to stick to win, and then they both profit a lot from that interaction. [Scott] Okay, Matt, so I guess they got a little bit of a follow up question for you, because I think the big thing that we kind of see with what we were just talking about, people want to be able to profit off of NFTs, and I think something we really want to see is the ability to bring our own art or ideas to life. Is this something that you kind of see how some of the games have to is the ability for people to bring their own ideas, their art into fruition? [Matt] That's kind of a hard question, and I want to divide it into two parts. I would say both yes and no. And the reason for that is that it can be done. But that doesn't mean every project is going to implement it. Why? Because you can build the Game around the NFTs, or you can build the NFTs around the game, which is kind of like the example with Axie and like the current games that you have out there, because the NFTs are specifically designed to work in a pattern in a way that the game itself implements, rather than the Game having to adapt to any new NFTs because there are not a lot of interoperability projects. And interoperability. What it means is basically a way for the same item to work in different ways in different games. There is, I think, the Loot project, and it's really, really cool because every single game can infer the stats of the items themselves. Like they just give you the NFT, so you can basically implement it in any way that you'd like. But that also requires a lot of manpower. It also requires you to be able to implement something that bridges that interaction with a random NFT. And that is not only rendering or models or physics or whatever it is, it's something that is really hard to plan when basically the NFT world is endless. So, yes, I believe there might be a project in the future. I can see projects coming up that sort of implement that, but I also see it's going to be very hard to do. So I think we might still be as a community as a whole. Like the NFT community still might be a bit far off from getting that done. It's definitely a huge stream to have, and it's definitely something that I would look forward to. But at the current time, with the current capabilities, I think we're still a bit far away from that. [Eric] So, Matt, it seems like a lot of these P2E Games require some sort of initial investment at first to play. But do you know of any games that don't have any buy in but still use the P2E Model? [Matt] Yeah, I can think of a few, honestly. There are, if I'm not mistaken, at least one or two games that have that implemented. But to be more specific, I want to talk about an upcoming game. It's called PHLIP. You're going to see it soon in the announcements, if not already. And this sort of ties back to the previous question, which is something that I like a lot. And PHLIP is one of the first games that sort of implemented this kind of freestyle mode into the NFTs because it's just a card game, but it's really fun, and I suggest you check it out. [Eric] So, Matt, you've intrigued me a little bit here about PHLIP, but you kind of gave us some info, but you really didn't let us know what it's about. Could you just give us a little more so our listeners can really get a greater grasp of what PHLIP is about? [Matt] So basically, yeah, this game has a similar model to Cards Against Humanity, but implements a lot of more of the freestyle way where you can come up with your own phrases. There's going to be cards that you could mint as NFTs, and they're also going to follow that model that we've mentioned about before. The general idea of the game, if you haven't played Cards Against Humanity, is to just come up with the funniest possible phrase to an image. An image is going to be thrown out, and then you just throw your cards. Whoever gets the funniest answer is going to win. And then cards are going to have different rewards. And basically, like, if you get voted by the judge, you're also going to get some rewards. And that's a really fun way of getting involved playing a game. If you're currently not involved in the crypto space that you like to have fun and all these fun games, that is a really good gate into whatever it is because you can be funny. And if you're funny, you have currently found a way to make that funny profit for you without having to go to stand up comedy and Saturdays. [Ryan] So, Matt, how do you feel about the Soldiers of the Metaverse project or even the PHLIP project? Are you guys, ACCEL or does ACCEL have any special plans to keep it fresh and relevant for new players coming in? [Matt] Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it would be important or interesting for people to know about that, because you might think that people that come in and made first come, first served, and they're the only ones that are going to get good rewards with time. And that's not true. The idea is that we want to bring in as many people as possible. We want to bring in people not only right now, we want to bring in more and more people as the project evolves and grows and implement new mechanics, implement ladder, implement tournaments, implement different sorts of things that will make the game evolve over time, like the soldiers of the metaphors that you're seeing right now that you're going to see at launch will not be the solution of the matters that you see two to three years from now. We want to make sure that this project goes on for a long while, and that requires a very delicate balance of a lot of things, but also a lot of work from our part to keep it fresh and making sure there's always, like, different things. So the community is always excited about the next thing that's going to come, and that's the same for Flip. I think while being a simpler game, there's still a lot of different things that can be done for that. So that's something that we're also looking into. [Eric] So, Matt, is there anything else you can tell our listeners about how we kind of plan to tie the ACCEL gaming ecosystem together as a whole. [Matt] Yeah, actually I have a very good nugget for everyone out there listening and that is that we are working every game in such a way that it is either directly or indirectly tied to one another. So if you're a part of one, you're always going to have preferred access to the next one. You can get probably early access to some of the newer games. You can get preferred staking when converting to one game to another. There's a million surprises coming off and I would strongly suggest that if you are not an existing holder you can come in now. There's a lot of cool things coming in, especially with NFT minting. So that's going to allow you to be part of a very select group of people that get to test a lot of these things early. [Eric] Once again, I want to thank all our listeners for tuning in again today to the ACCEL podcast. Please feel free to join us on Telegram or check the show notes for our link tree. [Ryan] And Matt, thank you for your time and for being a part of the ACCEL podcast, especially this two part mega episode. As Eric said previously, check out the show notes for all of our links and our link tree and even a full transcript of this episode. You want to go back and read some of the things that were said as always sit back, and ACCEL!-----------------------------------------The Information presented in this podcast is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including warranties of accuracy, completeness, or fitness for any particular purpose. The Information contained in or provided from or through this podcast is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice, investment advice, trading advice, or any other advice. The Information provided from or through this podcast is general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. 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I typically open up my monologue with setting some tension or to attempt to provoke how a grand idea might come together in the upcoming audio. I don't have that today. What I have is a young entrepreneur that impressed me with his story, branding, and how he's approaching the business of…college movers. I know you normally tune in for the SaaS powered wins or the WordPress unicorns, but trust me when I tell you, Sam Chason, founder of Storage Scholars, is bringing the heat. I'll admit, his story was so good, that I almost didn't believe him. I fully expected to decline the interview headed into our pre-interview. Luckily that wasn't the case, and now I'll be rooting for him from the sidelines hoping he can turn this business into a massive success. By the way, we do talk WordPress/WooCommerce and the platforms he's tried in the past — we're still getting our hands dirty here. If you enjoy the episode and want to buy me a virtual coffee in support, go to buymeacofee.com/mattreport and show your support for the show. Episode transcript [00:00:00] Sam: Storage scholars is a door to door, white glove service for college students. So basically the way that the service works it's generally for out-of-state or international studies.[00:00:09] I was from New York. I went to a school called wake forest, North Carolina, and I had two international hallmates, one from China, one from Ethiopia, and I would stereotypically see them bring over two large suitcases overseas. They'd bought the rest of the stuff that they needed at target bed bath and beyond, et cetera.[00:00:24] And there was just no way they were going to ship back their bedding or school supplies back to China. Right. So I thought, had to be a better way type deal. So the way the service works now is students receive boxes and packing supplies that we prefer finalists. They packed up their stuff. They snap a couple photos of the items.[00:00:39] They're looking at store add any extra insurance, lock up their room and go home. And then we generally have contracts with these universities. We get key access from the dorms. We use students on those campuses to do a contact us, move out about a 24 to 72 hours after campus closes, store it for the summer, however long they need to store it for and then have it ready and waiting in their new room pre delivered when they arrived back on campus.[00:01:01] So that's some storage scholars in a nutshell.[00:01:03] Matt: Yeah. When I first, before. You and I chatted. I was like, okay, moving. Like I say, moving company. And in my, in my head, I'm like, big industry makes sense. But then when we chatted and you're like, yeah, but people don't need to bring all their stuff back.[00:01:17] They're gone for whatever a month, 45 days, a half semester or whatever the thing is. Ship, all this stuff back. And I was like, wow, this is really interesting. You mentioned that there were some competitors out there kind of doing this same thing, but just kind of half asking it. Right. It was just a little bit of, one thing, a little bit of the other, not the full, the full compliment.[00:01:38] What are you doing better than the[00:01:39] Sam: current. Well, yeah, definitely shout out Nick hubris, sweaty start up. He was one of the first people I met doing this up at Cornell and that's kinda how I ended up on Twitter and probably my view as well. He, he sold a similar business up in the Northeast, so we were more so in the Southeast, we actually just recently signed a contract with a school in Pennsylvania a couple of days ago.[00:01:56] So making an expansion there watch out during removers, but a lot of it has to do with not only the university partnerships. So we're doing everything by the school's books. There's some others kind of, Companies out there that will just farm emails blast to a school and just figure they can get 30, 40, 50 customers per school and say that they operate at 80 a hundred institutions across the country.[00:02:16] We're more about building deep in Beth's in-depth relationships with those schools. And not only with the administration, but then also. Really fostering entrepreneurship on these campuses and kind of in two to three students, generally sophomores, they have some long longevity and bring these kids on board.[00:02:31] Having them shadow us, they can learn really important, like marketing operations, entrepreneurial type skills in school and ideally pay the wafers their way through college, kind of the same way that I[00:02:40] Matt: did. Yeah. So it's like, it's I don't, these are my words. You tell me paid internship. Is that how it.[00:02:47] Sam: That's funny. You say that that's actually quote unquote what I just put on our handshake profile. Some of these schools, cause it was not getting accepted before as more of like a high paying job. I figured not only is that what's more appealing to a college student nowadays. They want something for their resume, but also something they can make money on it, but it's also kind of the way we were able to get it out of these universities and getting on those job boards in the shop postings.[00:03:07] But, but it's very valid to,[00:03:08] Matt: so to my dedicated audience, so. Of what Sam just said is probably clicking to you. Why? Sam is here generally, I'm interviewing somebody who has a digital product, a digital service and agency software as a service. We're going to get to that in a moment, but I really love the, because again, people who listen to this know that I'm a huge proponent of entrepreneurship, but learning the nuts and bolts of it, rolling up the sleeves and getting to work.[00:03:33] It's a fantastic model. So I applaud you for like having this platform for people to. Really figure things out. I don't want to say the hard way, but like, you're getting them a job. They're learning all of this stuff. Have you been able to measure that? I know it's kind of early days for you, but how have you measured the success of people actually learning the business side of things, even if they're not sticking with you, for years as their end, is there anything like that, that you have a feedback loop?[00:03:59] Sam: Yeah. I mean myself. I The reason why I started this business was to pay my way through school. I did it more out of necessity. But my business partner, actually, he was a year younger than me. He's across the room over here. He's probably got his headphones in, but he was a biochemistry major coming to school, like 4.0 student, like probably could have gone to Stanford med.[00:04:16] But really got the itch, got the bug working with. And decided about halfway through his junior year to tell his whole family, Hey, I'm putting my medical career on hold. I really want to actually make, not necessarily to make a difference, be able to actually do things with my, with do things with my time, like immediately, as opposed to going to medical school residency and not be able to actually have a career until 10, 12 years after school.[00:04:36] So he was probably like the first one. And then. As we went out and started hiring these co-founders, I'm going to had kids that were sophomores, juniors, seniors, and they graduated and they all wanted to had three of them wanted to then work full-time afterwards. We ended up doing that. He ended up running like a residential, commercial moving company that we had for a little while.[00:04:52] Other ones have then worked for a little bit and then gone out and worked for companies like at JP Morgan. And truly, I think the biggest thing about this is a lot of times people will have things on the resume. And, but they don't necessarily have the ability to talk about it. Like, Hey, I worked at, I intern at UI Parthenon.[00:05:07] That's been amazing, but like, what did you actually do at Eli Parthenon? Right. And when they work at storage scholars, they have such a breadth of actually what they did. They went from they're calling the customers. They're actually meeting the customers. They're executing tons of marketing strategies are actually learning sales experience directly from us.[00:05:25] Full-scale entrepreneurship and we're taking all the tools that we've had found successful on campuses in the past, give them that playbook, but then also giving them pretty much unlimited budget to then do whatever they feel is best on their campus. And they feel really empowered. That's really where we found most of our success.[00:05:40] Matt: That's awesome stuff. A listener. You might hear some noise in the background. Sam is sitting in his common area of his apartment building, but I'm happy to report if you're watching the show on, on YouTube, YouTube, youtube.com/uh, the Matt report. Sam has a professional microphone in front of him. Thanks to thanks to me, urging him to get one, because he'll be doing a round of podcasts and you'll realize how good it is for his business and the marketing side.[00:06:02] In our pre-interview you mentioned Excel. I want to talk about the software side of it, and then we'll talk about more of like that marketing and branding stuff. Cause I think your, your branding's on point and I want to learn a little bit more. How you got to that point, why you realize that's important, but in our pre-interview you mentioned that your brother helped build some of the software.[00:06:21] Of the business. A lot of my listeners are into that and to the software side, how they're making things click. Is there a certain tech stack that you can talk about that you're using to build the inner inner workings of the business or even the public facing one? Are you using WordPress for the website?[00:06:38] Sam: Stuff like that? I guess I'll start with the part that I'm more knowledgeable, but the front end was at one point it was WooCommerce when it first, first. Went to Squarespace. And then actually I'm probably about 80% done with migrating over to a web flow. Sorry, escaped my mind for a second. So the,[00:06:58] Matt: that you for leaving woo commerce.[00:07:00] And then, then now you're kind of, okay, he's going back to Webflow. So at least it's something that's.[00:07:04] Sam: Yeah, so more so from the aesthetic design aspect, we go into web flow mean not, we were kind of reaching our capabilities a lot more of like block tacks and block images on Squarespace. And I just wasn't able to kind of take it where I want it to go in terms of the branding.[00:07:17] But then the backend is, has gone through. A ton of different iterations. A lot of it had to do with, we had one business model and then you get key access from the universities. You go to a different business model, then you have COVID and you have to start doing like shipping packages. And my five brothers listened to this.[00:07:33] He definitely was a little frustrated. His, his, his answer was always, yes. Yes, we could do that, but w I don't think we really understood exactly what yes, Matt and all the work that went into that. And we have, I think 287 custom fields for each associated account for different like yes-no formulas and stuff like that, too.[00:07:50] But it's, it's basically built mostly on PHP angler a and my SQL eight in terms of the, kind of the front end of the database, and then AWS as well. So we're actually, he's stepping in. He's coming more of like a CTO role. And we're bringing in kind of like a development team. So we have two full-time developers, as well as somebody who's kind of managing them as well.[00:08:10] And they should be coming on board in the next couple of weeks. It will be the real test of all the feedback we've gotten is that he has really clean code. And I really hope that to be true, but[00:08:18] Matt: if not, why not? Brother's not getting anything for Christmas. Coming[00:08:21] Sam: now. He's, he's, he's an incredible mind.[00:08:23] So I would assume all of that stuff is.[00:08:25] Matt: I, I want to talk about this software segment for a little bit here. When you left WooCommerce, what were your reasons? You're not in an uncommon, a lot of people listening to this too. There's a segment who are agency owners, freelancers. They talked a lot of folks who hop through different CMSs.[00:08:40] They hear a bunch of different things. You're not in an uncommon seat to be making these jokes. But what was it for you to leave WooCommerce to begin with?[00:08:47] Sam: Yeah, you have to appreciate that. I was 18 and I was better than my first ever website. And I just had my brother at the time because he was the only like technical person.[00:08:54] I knew, Hey, like what should we build the website on? He kind of helped me build the WooCommerce website to begin with. And then I had a friend that was working for kind of a different startup. It was more, it was a food and Bev startups with a little more of a prettier interface. He's like, you gotta use Squarespace.[00:09:07] You gotta start using canvas. This is mind blowing to me like, oh, I can actually just drag and drop and make this as opposed to relying on my brother to actually go in and design something where he was extremely technically sound. But aesthetically is probably is more of a secondary. So that was more so just the ability for me to do it myself.[00:09:23] But I'm sure now, five, six years later will commerce would, it would have been more of a drag and drop. It just was a little more intimidating at the time. Yeah, for[00:09:30] Matt: sure. For sure. Is the software side without revealing the secret sauce. Is that a secret sauce for you over your competition?[00:09:39] Like what technologies or how do you simplify this experience for your customers through the avenue of.[00:09:47] Sam: A hundred percent. It's definitely, there's no reason to fully reinvent the wheel. Storage and moving companies existed obviously for decades, what we do. It's, you can't buy some off the shelf software.[00:09:58] That's actually going to work for exactly what you're looking for. So we've definitely, scoured the competition. We've built our own software and then we've also kind of taken probably some of the 10, five, 10% from these other. Worked for them. And put it into our platform. Of course they can kind of like a, a Frank and business of, of storage scholars for the college Jordan's game.[00:10:17] But I think a couple of the things are you market to the college students, but the real customers are kind of the parents. So that was the biggest lesson we learned in terms of making accounts that can give both parent and student access where the student come on, they can make the account, the parent that doesn't have to like contact the student to find out their log.[00:10:34] The parent can pay. The student can edit the pick-up drop-off information. It's a whole open flow of information that in the past it would be that scenario would be that Jane Smith is a divorced mom and she made an account for her son Johnny Maxwell and. The account would say Jane Smith, but it's actually for the sun and it's like, what is going on?[00:10:54] Right. So being able to really be flawless in the flow of information and then that way we actually know exactly who we're communicating to, and we can also communicate both to the students and parents and keep everybody in the loop is it's probably the biggest differentiator.[00:11:05] Matt: Is this all website on the website or is there a mobile.[00:11:08] That everybody has instant access to.[00:11:11] Sam: Yeah, it's a mobily optimized website right now. That's actually where we're stepping into as well as making an app. I think the initial instinct was why do we need an app who wants to download a storage app and have it on their phone at all times? But at the same time, there is definitely limitations with websites and being able to upload images quickly.[00:11:27] And just more so the speed of the site is what's holding us back right now from not necessarily a customer standpoint, that's a lot simpler, but more of a managerial standpoint because customer they're uploading. Five images, total where the managers are going in, potentially looking at 600 orders in a one or two day period and just the load speed and the page speed needs to be increased.[00:11:44] So making a oh an app first for the managers where they can also integrate all the software, use it right now, like off the shelf in terms of time tracking payroll and also integrating our actual software altogether to have one harmonious unit.[00:11:58] Matt: What challenges are you finding? Kind of like you're almost in that marketplace.[00:12:04] Conundrum where you need to kind of serve two different crowds, right? So in a, in a marketplace standpoint, you need the customers to show up and you need the inventory to sell them in your case, you need the customers to show up, but you also you're like, so you're building a software for these customers to snap the photos of the stuff.[00:12:21] People need to pack up and move for them. But then you're also trying to build software for your team to use, efficiently and effectively. How is that process? Like, you get customers that give you feedback. Hey, this experience was great. This experience sucked. And then you get the same feedback from your, from your employees.[00:12:35] Or like, I can't find the stuff fast enough, or I can't see all the orders coming in. Has that been a challenge at all or fairly smooth sailing so[00:12:43] Sam: far? Yeah, definitely. Always been customer first. I think the customer experience has not been sacrificed by any means, but it's been the iterations of the business.[00:12:53] So like right now, About 80% or sorry to say it's about 50, 50, I would say at this point, because we keep changing of our business is key access schools, kids leave their stuff in their room. They go home. We do big mass move-outs in 24, 48 hours. That has, Boriso been put on the back burner because we have a little more time and autonomy.[00:13:13] We're not dealing directly with the students. Face-to-face where we can kind of sit back and wait for the website to load or just kind of go on your computer. Make that work, but then you have an entirely different way. We built it where it's like a by appointment where you meet the customers at the door, they pick up time, they're on a alive queue and then there's worklist associated with that.[00:13:30] So the by appointment has been perfected, but then now that we continue to evolve and make the business model better, it's like actually having them make two different work lists, one for like a one day, move out and one for like a 10 day move out. And with, with all the things that have obviously happened in the last 12 months, we had to.[00:13:46] Make some other things become priority, but I think, I don't think, this year is exactly what we're doing. We're actually going to make that. So they're both working and you can have a work list. You can download that. You can search by it. You can filter by dorm. You can filter by floor of the dorm, and then you're just going through and just crushing dorm by dorm, as opposed to like looking at specific dates or people are signing up for their move-outs.[00:14:05] I want to[00:14:05] Matt: move on to talk about the challenges of running the business. Aside from the software and talk about these logistic things, part of the advantage. I remember you telling me and you, I think you mentioned it before in the pre-interview is that you do go into the room, right? They, you get access to the room to grab the.[00:14:21] And your competition doesn't do that, right?[00:14:25] Sam: Yeah. So, some. Some of these schools have access to the dorms. But the thing is, is that a lot of them are, are basically more so high level marketing companies. And then they're farming out the actual, moving to local moving companies and with what's going on with COVID and stuff as well, in terms of like having, being coming vaccinated, that's one big barrier to entry at like, well, how are you going to trust us outside moving company to walk into your dorms, but who can you trust?[00:14:49] The students on your campus because they've been vaccinated. So that was kind of one way for us to get a backdoor approach to that. And then on top of that too, if you're an 18 year old girl and your father is sending you to school, does your father really want you to have, 40 old man walking into your room stereotypically, right.[00:15:03] And walking into that dorm and picking up your stuff and moving it out when you could have a kid that was in your calculus class. And we definitely do struggle with the kind of balancing that image of peer to peer, but also. Kind of perfection and, level of quality because some people are like, this is awesome.[00:15:18] You're my, your. Current, classmate at the same time, my mom doesn't mind if I can trust you with my stuff. So that's another reason kind of behind the branding and trying to make us see them a more of like the Uber black premier service. We're not a discount service, we're charging a premium price and, our level of service should be reflected in that just because we're using students, that doesn't necessarily decrease the quality.[00:15:37] It's just increasing the personalization. Yeah.[00:15:40] Matt: And, but the particular challenge getting to was is you have to make these, not only do you have to make that I guess, sale or relationship to the customer, but you also have to make it with the school because it's not like the school is just going to let you do all this stuff without, I'm assume without them knowing who the heck you are and like what's going on.[00:15:56] They start seeing all these black t-shirts rolling in the nice logos on it. Like what's happening here. I'm sure you have to try. Again, like a couple sides of the fence that the end user customer, and then the place that has the inventory, which is the school and in it, you have to build up those relationships on both sides.[00:16:14] The, and then the next challenge, which popped into my head when we were chatting earlier is just the, student, what I'll say is a paid internship. These student body employees, if you will, across the country how are you managing. Scaling that like, do you have to start having regional managers, people, once they do graduate school, they become an actual full season employee with you.[00:16:38] And now they're managers of that school. How does that ramp[00:16:41] Sam: up? Yeah. So we call those internships. We call them campus co-founders because we truly believe that they are kind of co-founding in some ways like franchising their campus, and they can either get an inflated hourly upwards, 15 to $20 an hour at a base, or they can essentially get like a percentage of revenue.[00:16:57] And then of course, they're going to see that increase the more years that they're actually operating. So when you have, like, for example, you had a kid who, a soft. Junior senior. By the time he was senior year, he made $20,000 in a single move out based on that revenue schedule. And then he wanted to continue working full time.[00:17:14] So I think you have the people that are naturally interested. But the challenge with that of course is when we were kind of under a million dollars in sales or a couple years ago, it was all right. Well, we want to bring these people on, but the beauty of this business is seasonal. And as a full-time student, it was.[00:17:28] But like now that we're graduating we're no longer in school. We have all this extra time and like, to what you alluded to, we're spending a lot more of that time actually selling universities and kind of university sales, as opposed to just, building up this marketing and then trying to do the move out and then do the move in and.[00:17:42] Taking a rest because we actually have school to do it. It's finding a job to do the rest of the year. So as we've been able to grow, I think the beauty of this is that the more people that have actually wanted to work full-time we've been able to give them full-time opportunities. So we heard a gift from Milan.[00:17:55] We hired a kid actually just from college of Charleston a couple of weeks ago. He came on full time and then we have two more in the pipeline, one from Richmond and one from Washington and Lee university that are currently seniors in. There if express interests and, and working post-graduation I think for the first time, I'm really excited that we actually will be able to give them full-time opportunities as just like you said, as regional managers and one region managing their region physically, but then also helping to then manage remote.[00:18:20] No another five or 10 that are schools under their domain.[00:18:23] Matt: Do you look at certain areas? So I'm south of Boston, there's a billion schools here. Like, do you look at areas that you want to go into that maybe you haven't found any organic interest from? Is that a thing? Or is it like, Hey, I'm just like this natural growth just works and it's way easier to manage or do you look at territories that you want to get into and, and how does.[00:18:44] Sam: A hundred percent. So I went to school in North Carolina, so natural expansion was Virginia, South Carolina. Saw a competitor that had a school in Texas at SMU. So that's how we went down to Texas rice and that's to me this past year, I just moved down to Texas to expand that. Texas and Florida. But I'm from New York, my business partners from Boston too.[00:19:01] So we definitely have our sights set on the Northeast. There's just actually a little more competition up there. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Mean being a fast follower is definitely a lot easier than trying to educate not only the school, but the customer on what a valet storage service is.[00:19:16] So I'd rather just go in where they've had a previous, service provider that's just bad. And then we can just go in and take over. But where are we? Found kind of those pockets is actually we started going to housing conferences. So conferences that have the residency, I, the operations people.[00:19:31] And that's actually where he met this one person from Pennsylvania, where by no means were we meaning to expand there. But we developed a great rapport. She loved what she heard and she was like, yeah, I'd love to sign an exclusive contract with y'all. That'll happen in the last couple of weeks, but now it's like, oh, well now that puts some eyes in Pennsylvania.[00:19:47] Maybe we need to expand there a little quicker and. Pennsylvania's got probably 20 schools that we could expand to. And once you have that kind of density, there's no reason not. Yeah.[00:19:55] Matt: I'd imagine and correct me if I'm wrong. Like I, I would imagine when you go into expand into a new territory, your biggest or potentially your biggest spend is going to be marketing and advertising.[00:20:05] Just to get the word out there. It's not like you're having to ship a bunch of product or these amazing boxes that we're going to talk about in a second. But is there any kind of like thing you have to ship in? And store your own storage stuff, something really meta, like, is there a thing you have to ship out there?[00:20:20] A box of stuff and people just have to.[00:20:23] Sam: Yeah. So yeah, I'll ship a box or two of our storage scholars boxes to the co-founders tell them to go out and buy a table, give them their corporate credit card to go do that. And that's going to have shirts, cups, stickers, banners, film backs, kind of that, that kind of marketing material.[00:20:37] But the beauty too, is that on any first year campus, whether we're talking about marketing materials or whether we're talking about. Storing kids' actual things is that, there's a really nice thing called self storage. That's usually five minutes from campus. So when we're not necessarily sure about a market, the numbers can look great, but it doesn't assign me.[00:20:54] People are going to use the service. So we'll use self storage almost exclusively for the first year. And then once you have that market proven, then you're going to go out and you're going to find an industrial warehouse lease. But that being said, it's also another challenge of the business because we might have.[00:21:06] 10 15,000 square feet from the four months of made August. But then all these kids move back in. You might have a couple of students that store longer. You might have some marketing materials, some extra boxes, but that's going to come down to a maximum, thousand square feet. Right. So then you're kind of downsizing either to self storage or coming up with a really creative lease with the landlord.[00:21:22] But that's a, that's definitely a, a tough aspect of the business too. It's finding that space.[00:21:27] Matt: Oh, when you raise a billion dollars, I hope it's not one of those. We work stories where you set out to be a coworking space, but you ended up being a real estate company. And then why the hell do you own all this property?[00:21:36] And you're like, oh, we're really a moving company. And then sheets are all imbalanced. Let's talk about, let's talk about marketing for a second. Toward the end of the show, a great marketing. I think I know the answer, but why did you focus on, how did you feel? How did you know that, that marketing's really going to work for something like this or branding and your logo and stuff is really going to work for something like this?[00:21:57] A competitive market.[00:21:59] Sam: Yeah, the way the business was started, as I printed out some flyers that I'd probably throw up out. If I looked at today, I'm there pretty embarrassing, but I went door to door. I saw all my freshmen, hallmates and freshman classmates, and they knock on the door and they say, come in.[00:22:13] I'm like, no, that's, I would knock on the door again to come in. And I'm like, no, I'm not who you think I am, but sure. I'll come in. So I, I definitely had some tough conversations at the beginning and got some raw feedback on what was what they were looking for and what they weren't looking for. But I think initially too, in terms of like a branding aspect after kind of doing that customer discovery was.[00:22:31] The best advice that I got from one of my entrepreneurship professors is there was a competitor on campus and I was like, oh, they're charging $14 a box. I'm going to charge 13. Oh, he's like, do not be the discount service, like always charge more and, but provide more too. Right. So I from, I wouldn't say day one, but from day two, it's like, okay.[00:22:49] Yes, we need to be out there. Be the premium service and service, the top level customer and give them the service that they, that they desire. And the whole black and white was really trying to be the. Premium futuristic, Uber black type experience, luxury experiences, as opposed to being, I don't know, like a green eco-friendly moving company.[00:23:07] We are. Absolutely. You can find that. I don't mean to say it like that, but I think sometimes there's, there's definitely certain colors that elicit certain emotions and I, I want it to be more of a sleek elite luxury brand.[00:23:17] Matt: Yeah. The do do when every time you're moving students, You always rocking the branded boxes or is it like one branded box on top and the rest of them are[00:23:26] Sam: brown?[00:23:27] No, absolutely. So not only does that give you the brand awareness, but actually, so we used to use obviously brown boxes, right. And we would buy these stickers and they put the sticker on top of the box. It also put the sticker on there, out of box item, their TV, their refrigerator, whatever. But in terms of like an inventory perspective, if you imagine you have a box and then you'd stack another box on top, And you have a sticker on the top.[00:23:49] Well, you can't see it. Right? So those boxes were also designed because you have their writing, their name, the order number, the item number on the top of the box. They're also writing it massively on the side of the box, actually in the storage facilities. They're lined up. Yeah. I see all their names very, very clearly.[00:24:04] So from just like an identification standpoint, that was the purpose of it. And then of course, yet when you walk around with black storage, collar shirts, white shirts, white shorts, and these big black boxes, and then you see them in the, in the dumpsters for two weeks after, and the recycling bins, after everyone leaves and comes back, it's like, it's great branding.[00:24:19] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. People wonder what the heck's going on. I want that, like, that looks easy. Speaking of looks easy. I'm looking at the. Archive a web archive.org site. And I'm looking back to August, 2018. Your tagline for the site back then was easy, effortless and economical live the scholars. How did you change that from a marketing perspective?[00:24:40] You started talking to customers, you chatted with them. They were like, no, we'll pay you a little bit more money. And you got rid of the word economical. How did that all play out? Changing that.[00:24:48] Sam: Yeah. I thought alliteration was more powerful than value at the time. So that's probably why I went with that.[00:24:53] But yeah, I it was, like I said, I, I want it to beat out the competition because also at the same time, I didn't, I wasn't confident. Like I knew it was confident in myself, but I'd never, I didn't want to over promise and under deliver. So to say, Hey, we're the best service we're better than the competition.[00:25:06] I'd never even moved to box before. It's like, that was kind of tough. So that was year one. And then once we, server. 64 students at wake forest university. I was like, all right, well, this went well. We made it happen. I touched every single box. I know exactly how this works. I shook probably half the kids hands and the parents hands that use this service.[00:25:22] All right. Now I'm confident we can go out there and start to spread what we're doing and do it in a, in a much better way and be able to charge that premium price tag, Sam,[00:25:30] Matt: this doesn't sound like it's your first rodeo. Who do you have? Have you ran a business before somebody, your dad, your parents, a great mentors.[00:25:38] You're just born with it. What is it?[00:25:40] Sam: So my parents are both public high school teachers in New York. I'm the youngest of three. My brother is a web developer, my sister's a and in fashion. So I, I didn't necessarily get it from them fully, but definitely the fiscal responsibility absolutely came from my parents, actually my grandfather mostly, and from, at a young age.[00:26:00] Kind of the quintessential story would be, and maybe two of them was that at five. I was like, Hey mom, dad, like, I want to have a lemonade stand. So great. Okay. So you're going to go out. You're going to buy the paper, the markers, the plastic cups and the, lemonade powder. And w we'll we'll lend you the money in the beginning, but you got to pass that back.[00:26:17] And to like be, $18 in debt at five years old, it's like, shit. Like I gotta make this happen. Right. So I'm standing out in the street and I'm flagging people down. And, and from that point on, even at age nine, I'm like, oh mom, like Frankie wants an Xbox for Christmas. Okay. Well, how are you going to get that for him?[00:26:33] Right. Well, it's like, I wasn't poor, but it just kind of given him. The fiscal responsibility at such a young age, what kind of drove me to, to start develop these skills very early on and start flipping ATVs cars and stuff like that in high school and selling candy out of my locker and middle school. I was always kind of hustling.[00:26:49] Matt: Are you, have you raised money? I don't think we, as we talked about this in the pre-interview raising money, organic bootstrap, I should say, or do you plan on raising money? What are the cards hold.[00:26:58] Sam: Yeah. Currently exclusively bootstrapped. Like I said, too excited for aside from a little PPP, but it, the, the business motto is structured such as, and the reason why I started this business was, Hey, I need to make money.[00:27:10] Like today. I need to pay for my school today. So how can I do that? And so kids would pay a $50 deposit, which they still do now. And that for me covered the initial cost of the boxes, the tape, the storage units, the trucks, and that's, what's been able to catapult. As far, I don't think we could grow to 150 schools next year without raising money, but that's not really the purpose or really the path right now.[00:27:33] Like I said, building deep in-depth relationships with the universities and the life cycle of a, of a university sales cycle is, is pretty it's pretty. Oh, it's more of a relationship driven business. So trying to figure that out along the way, and at this point where we've been able to bootstrap it and keep it going that way.[00:27:49] Matt: Sam chase and storage scholars, storage, scholars.com, Sam, anywhere else you want folks to go?[00:27:56] Sam: Yeah, definitely follow us on socials on on Instagram, on Facebook, LinkedIn, we are definitely trying to be a young company. So give us some rod feedback. If, if you're in that age, demographic 18 to 21, let us know what we're doing.[00:28:10] Right. Let's know what we're doing wrong. Love to hear from you, ★ Support this podcast ★

Allen: All right, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Option Genius Podcast today I have with me, Matthew D'Ambrosi .He's one of our passive traders. And he's gonna be telling us how he got started and how he's doing pretty well right now. How are you doing, Matthew? Matt: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. Allen: Cool. Cool. So how'd you get started with Option Genius?  Matt: Well, I have to actually go back, it's been quite a journey, I have to say, you know, it's more like a 15 year journey for me. Allen: Wow. You know, I was given a book by my sister at age 30. And I was a young guy, and I was just more not interested in reading books just kind of floating through life, didn't really have much direction. And the book was called "Automatic Millionaire" by David Bach. Allen: Okay. Matt: In that book, I wasn't really interested in reading it, but she handed it to me. So I said, at least go through it. And I started thumbing through and I came upon a compound interest chart. And it showed, you know, you're 19 years old, and you put $2,000 into an IRA, or Roth IRA, and you did that, and you continue to do that, it would be well over a million by the time you're 65. So I was caught immediately by that. And that's kind of where my journey began. So I took that information, and started reading more books. And I came across Dave Ramsey. He's kind of like a financial soldier, if you will, you know, to get out of debt. Yeah, kind of get your stuff together. And I started, I always thought about making money and you know, retiring early, it was always a thought of mine, it was a gold mine, it was definitely what I wanted to do. And I always felt like 65 is when I would do it just like everybody else. And I continue to read more, I read numerous articles and books. And about two years ago, I went to a workshop, and I was learning how to invest. And they introduced me to options and selling options. And I was told that everyone else was told, you know, it was risky. Don't touch it. There's a whole another world to me. Allen: Have you done any stocks or options before that? Matt: No, absolutely not. Allen: No stocks either? Matt: Not really, you know, I was more into mutual funds, I had gave my money to an advisor, I just believe that people had your best interest. And they're great advisors out there. I'm not saying they're not. But it really started me to take a hard look about how money is handled. And you're much better off if you take the plunge and believe in yourself and start looking into deeper and see that they can really work out for you if you're willing to take or have the interest really to go and look at that. So I started paper trading. And then I was wondering who else does this so I started searching. And then I came across your name, and I have to hand it to your master marketer. I've never had anyone hit my inbox like you. So I started listening to all your podcast, taking little by little, you know, all the information that you give out there and started little by little paper trading. And then I started making money slowly, you know, doing one contract, then adding two. And then now I'm pretty much on my goal to replace my income. And that's my ultimate goal so... Allen: Awesome. Matt: Just a regular guy, you know, I just kind of happy to be here. I'm really happy to be here today. Because I want to get the message out that you know, you're teaching just normal people like me, who have no experience at this. And it's really a wonderful thing if you're willing to get a hold of your fears and take a stab at it. Allen: Right. So you started about two years ago, you said? Matt: Yeah, about two years ago yeah. Allen: Oh two years ago. Okay. And you're still working? Matt: I am, yep. Allen: Okay, what do you do during the day? Matt: So I'm a forklift driver and it's tough work. It's very laborsome. And trading has allowed me to look at money in a different way. I just don't look at money as scarce as it was. So it's a whole different mindset. Allen: Yeah. So how do you find time during the day to trade? Matt: Generally I don't go until about 2:30 in the afternoon, and I go on to 2:30 at work so I spend the mornings pretty much studying and paper trading and learning and then even after work at 11 o'clock, sometimes I'll be up till 1am or so learning as well and paper trading and trying to think about things and whatnot so.. Allen: So you're all in? Matt: All in, absolutely. They say burn the ships and I burnt them. Allen: So what was your first trade? Matt: First trade I did was credit spread. I did far away from the money for about just one contract and I made like 18 bucks. It wasn't much but you know, you're, you talked about the options continuum. That was in that stage where I was very nervous and you know, you have these feelings and you feel like you're gonna lose all your money. And that's not true, if you study and really take what you have to teach, and I took it very slow and got into it. So after that, after you do, there's something about to do first live trade, it kind of clicks with you like, okay, that wasn't so bad, you know, not the think of the worst that can happen. So, yeah, I did it. And it's been a, you know, I'm gaining confidence each and every week. And, yeah, we just continue to evolve on that continuum. Allen: Cool. So if I can recap. So basically, you want to get into investing because you didn't like where it was going. And you didn't want to wait around till 65 to, you know, have a nest egg and retire and have somebody else in charge of your money. So you started looking at it for yourself, and you've been putting in time you've been studying, researching trading, paper trading? What else is it that you want to achieve, besides just the money aspect? Like what what is it about the trading that is, you know, speaks to you on a deeper level? Matt: Yeah, I think the main part and it's different for everybody, for me, it's actually you know, as you get older, you realize you don't know how much time you have on this earth. And, you know, you start looking at things like, Hey, you know, the time is right now. And if I can find a way to free up some time, I'm going to seize it, because I never want to look back and say, "Hey, you know, I got to 65" I'd be glad if I do. But to spend time with friends and family, I got, you know, parents are almost in their 80s, I would love to just free up just a little bit of time and already am and I'm already you know, I already feel successful. And that, you know, I found something that I can do and free some time up and actually see them. Allen: Okay. So when you say you feel successful, what does that mean in numbers? Matt: Numbers to me, it's like just even $500. And it's different for everybody. There's no doubt. I mean, $500 extra dollars a month is successful to me. It gives you just a little bit of breathing room. I'm a simple person, I don't need a lot. I drive a 2200 accord. I mean, it looks like it's gonna fall off the road. I'm not a man to really, you know, I love great things. I would love to get in a nice, wonderful car, but it's not the main driver for me. The main drivers just to spend quality time family and friends. Absolutely. Allen: Nice. Nice. Okay. So would you mind sharing how large your trading account is now? Matt: Yeah, I started with in the brokerage account, I started about 2 Grand, and I'm already up to about 16 right now. Allen: Wow, in two years? Yeah, that's phenomenal. Matt: Yeah, I mean, I'm also adding to it too, but.. Allen: Okay. Matt: It's amazing to see the compound interest grow. And I haven't been really calculating it like dollar for dollar. But I'm just more really tuned into just being successful and working through the trades. And not really focusing so much on, you know, $1 amount just being, "Hey, let me get this tray. Let me monitor it. Let me look at it. Let me learn from it". If I have any problems, if I look at it as a learning experience, I have to continue to go I want to be in it forever. You know, I want to continue to I want to be that guy standing, you know, 10 years, 15 years from now and still doing this. Allen: Okay, so you don't want to be a forklift driver anymore? Matt: No, I say, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of people who listen to podcast saying I hate my job. I do not I actually enjoy driving a forklift. I just don't want to drive 40 hours a week. Allen: Okay. Okay, so what type of strategies are you using? Matt: So right now I'm doing a lot of bull put spreads, I've ventured into bear call spreads. I'm also doing covered calls. I haven't done any naked puts yet. So I'm really kind of looking at some companies and, uh, you know, I want to know more about the companies and look at stable companies like you teach us and start doing options off of them. So, it's an ongoing process and what amazes me that you don't need to do a lot of different strategies to be successful. Allen: Right, right. Right. Okay. What's your if you had to only pick one, which was your favorite? Matt: At the moment, it'd be a bull put spread, but I have a feeling that's gonna change. Allen: Yeah depending on the market. Matt: Also venturing into into oil, like you're teaching in your program. Allen: Cool. Yeah. Welcome to that program. Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely the next level of stuff. You know, it moves faster, and it's more leverage. So the numbers are bigger. Matt: Yeah. Allen: Cool. So have you tried anything else that didn't work? Matt: You know, I've done about 60 trades so far. I've lost one. And I got out early, it would have worked out. And it was my first time losing money, but I look at as a big lesson. You know, there's a lot of feelings. I listened to one of your podcasts where you talked about how you lost and the feelings that surround that. Right. I think you have to kind of reevaluate and find the lesson in it. And the lesson I found in that trade was that I was trading too heavy. I was a little bit. I was actually doing too many contracts. I was a little bit too uncomfortable. Matt: So that it was is a really good learning experience to say, Hey, you know, I'm not really comfortable risking that much money. Let me just pare it back a little bit. And think about what I want to do here, so.. okay, that, you know, the experience of actually getting out of a trade out of our live trade because you know, your bloods pumping, and you're like, Okay, you know, am I hitting the right buttons? And I get now it's a little different than paper? Of course. Allen: For sure. Yeah. But did you say you did 60 trades and you only lost on one? Matt: Yes so far... Allen: And these are all real money? Matt: Real Money, yes. Allen: Wow. And what's your strategy? How are you doing that? Would you find that trading plan? That's amazing. Matt: You know, it's a lot of listening. I've read so many books, listen to podcasts, listening to education, I kind of go, I'm a very conservative person. So I trade very conservatively. So about 90% out or more, I try to get at least 23 cents, 22 cents, and then just move my contracts up as I feel comfortable taking that risk. Allen: Okay so if I heard you correctly, you are trading at about a 10 delta spread? Matt: Yeah, usually. Allen: And then you're trying to make about 5% on each trade? Matt: Yeah, but between four and 5% Allen: Between four or five? And how long do you stay in the trade? Matt: You know, it's almost embarrassing, but that's the level of how you get better. I really have my you know, you talk about your AHA moments, and one of them was mine. I didn't know you could get out of the trade. So I was always thinking you had to be there until expiration, but that's not obviously not true. So that was a big one. For me, I have to honestly say that, you know, when you're learning this, you just don't think of you don't know everything. Right? And I was like, oh, my goodness, you can actually get out of these trades. So I learned to get out. So you know, that's a benefit in my world, once you know how to get out, it takes a little bit of fear out. Allen: So when do you get in? How many days to expiration to get in? Matt: Generally, I'm between 28 and 35 days or so. Allen: Okay, and what how many trades at one time do you have on? Matt: I really try to do only as many as I can comfortably watch. I try to do maybe one a week. So about four trades at most that are going on? Allen: Okay, so four trades at one time. Okay. And so how much would you say you're making on a monthly basis? dollar terms? Matt: Well across two accounts. So I trade in my brokerage account, I trade under my IRA, I rockler. Right? I'm averaging about 1000 a week now? Allen: 1000 a week. Okay. That's amazing. So within two years, you're up to 4000 a month. And you're saying your account value is roughly around 16? Matt: Roughly 16. And then, you know, in the Roth IRA, it's considerably higher, but that's not money I really want to put a heavy risk of short term trading, but I do trade there. Allen: Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. No, that's, that's crazy. And you're saying that you're almost to the point where it's getting close to where it's gonna replace your income or equal your income from..  Matt: Yeah I mean, I have no qualms about it. I my goal is to get make $5600 a month. And I know my number and but it's all about, you know, I guess one of the big reasons for me coming on is that you just have to trust the process. And you have to actually become in love with the process not be so result driven. I mean, it's important, you know, we all want results. But if you can find a love for the process, I think you're that much better?  Allen: For sure. Definitely. Yeah. Because, you know, like you said, You've been putting in the time you wake up and you work on it. And then after work, you know, tired long day, but you still sometimes you still get it and to look at it being you wouldn't do it if you weren't like happy and excited. It's really something to find something. I feel like this is a point in my life where I really found something I love to do. And I really do. I really love this. And, you know, it's, I just want other people that are just regular people like me, and people come all the time and say, you know, you can do this and do that. But I am I tell you to my core, I'm just a regular person, I drive a forklift. And if anyone can do it, you can do it. And thank God, there are people like you have to teach this stuff. Because I would have killed 20 years ago to have someone guide me through just hitting me across the head of the board and be like, Hey, you know, listen. But that's not how life works. Allen: Right, no, yeah. You know, when you're ready, the teacher appears kind of thing. You know? Matt: It really is true. Allen: Yeah. Yeah. So the biggest thing that surprised you when you were doing this stuff, besides that you could get out before expiration? Matt: Oh, yeah, that was a big one. I think it's coupled with what other people say but also with what I think is that you can trade on something that you don't own. I think that's a big thing for people. Because we're just conditioned to be like, you know, if I can trade something, I have to own it. And that was a big like, wow, for me, for trading. You know, also the covered call as well. Allen: Okay. And so what was your biggest challenge? Matt: The biggest challenge for me was overcoming your fears. I mean, it's, it's definitely a big fear. And I don't take it lightly. Because, you know, we all worry about losing our money, we worked so hard for it. I mean, I work 40 hours a week just to make the bills and do everything that we want to do, we want a better standard of living. And it's very scary  you know, you can think about losing all that money and a flash, and that's really fearful. And I think that's the biggest obstacle, but be to be able to papertrade it and learn from people like yourself that have gone through it. And like, they say, taken the arrows is all much better. I mean, you know, it's like, I talk to people, it's like, you're in a forest, and you don't know which way to go. And it's like, you have someone like yourself or someone else that has gone through this. And we're like, Hey, here's the path. You know, over here is a ditch over here, you know, there's a lion, go down this path, and you start to understand otherwise, you're just flailing around, and you'll be lost in that forest forever. So, you know, it's just one big journey, to be honest with you. Allen: Yep. Yep, yep. Yep. So is that the biggest thing that helped you overcome the fear? Got me a lot of people have that fear. You know, it's like, oh, my God, if I do this, what's going to happen? What if I press the wrong button? What if they take this away? What if you know, something, I do something wrong, my wife's gonna kill me, you know, how did you besides the paper trading was that the biggest thing that helped you overcome the fear? Matt: I think also, the actual structure of a credit spread, you know, knowing that when I have a set amount of money, that it's risk, I can only lose like, $500 in a trade or 480. That really helped me, okay, I was like, Okay, if you're uncomfortable, overall, losing $480 in this trade completely fails. And that's all I'm gonna lose. And I wrapped my head around that, then I can get past that barrier. And I can trade more and learn how to trade. I think initially, you just have in your mind that you're gonna lose all your money, which is not true. If you, of course, you I mean, you have to study and you have to pay attention. None of this is easy or simple. But you got to put in the time, I'm not saying you don't. But if you really want to, and you're, you have conviction, and you have desire, there's no reason why you can't do this stuff. Allen: So what do you think the future holds for you now? Matt: Well, I hope all good things. I mean, I go on with the, I hope I go in with the attitude. I'm really happy and excited to be part of the the oil, that's a whole another, the oil blank check trading program. It's a whole another world for me. And, you know, I kind of feel like, it's traded like options, but it's very different. And then I have to get in there. And it's like, you know, I'm back at the beginning a little bit. So I got to get him up to speed and learn that it's a whole another world. So you go through those feelings again, in a different way. So I'm kind of in the beginning, but I'm very hopeful for the future. And I just want to continue to be consistent and profitable. And that's all you can ask for. Allen: Yep. Yep. So would you recommend Option Genius to other people? Matt: Absolutely. I mean, I sing your praises almost all the time. I one of the big reasons is that how accessible you are. And you know, whenever I had a question, you guys are on top of it. I mean, I couldn't ask for any quicker response. And if you have a problem, you feel like someone's right beside you. And I really appreciate that. So yeah, I've absolutely, I would tell anyone to go to you and learn from you learn from you on the program.  Allen: Yeah, we try. I mean, we're not perfect. And we don't work weekends. But some people, some people are like, Oh, I bought this thing on Saturday. Why haven't I got it yet? I have questions. I'm like, Oh, we don't work weekends, you know. See that's part of the job here. You know, I talked about it on the podcast, and the books and everything. It's like freedom. You know, that's the ultimate, the ultimate goal is freedom. And however you define it, yeah, the time to do what you want the money to do what you want, and you just, you know, if you want to go here, do this, or whatever, buy whatever you want. Like, I'm so happy and excited that you're feeling a taste of that, you know, it's like, "Okay, if I'm going to work, I'm going to make X dollars, but I can always be laid off". I can always get hurt. I can always, you know, get sick. I mean, so many people right now are getting sick and they can't work and they're all scared because they don't know what they're going to do. And you know, the fact that you're you found something that you can stay at home, press a few buttons, and you understand it and you're like, Okay, intellectually, I can make this work. And you put in the time in the effort. I've seen that. So kudos to you for that. Because I've seen a lot of people. They're like, Oh, yeah, no, no, this is supposed to be magic. I'm supposed to hit the Escape key and I'm supposed to get money coming out of my computer. Well, it doesn't work that way. You know, you have to put in time, effort, thought process. You have to do it over and over and over again, which you've done for the last two years. You've been putting your dues in I mean, obviously you're not done yet. Right? You still got a long way to go. Matt: Oh, yeah, absolutely my goal is never to be complacent. You know, never think I've no at all, because I do not. There's people out there that are very smart, intelligent, people that are learning, I always look at life, you can learn somebody, something from everyone, just like all the people, all the books that I've read, if you can get one good thing out of them, you can learn something from them, you're all the better. You know, I just learned to not look at one thing as the way there could be multiple ways. But you know, you have to take the good and almost make it your own as well. You know it, but it's on you. And you as you get older, you realize that it is on you to make this decisions. I don't want to bury my head in the sand and just hope you know, I wake up at 65 and I'm retired. So it's a process. And luckily, I fell in love with it. Allen: That's great. That's great. So let's say you get your goal and you're making 5600 a month from your trading. You still going to work? Matt: I think initially I mean, you know, it's a wonderful question to answer. I think initially, I would go with part time, because I like I do like my job. I do enjoy driving a forklift. But um, it would allow me to do some other things that I would want to do in life. I mean, I like gardening, I like painting, maybe learn Spanish, I always want to learn Spanish, you know, and I could put my efforts towards that. It's just, it opens a whole another world for you. And I mean, it really does. And it gives you a chance to maybe go into some things that you never dreamed that you would be. For instance, after this, I'm going on a boat, I would never dream that I would learn, I always didn't want to drive a boat, I was afraid to drive a boat, I was afraid I was gonna to crash into a dock. But I'm a member of a book club now. And I'm going to go out my wife after this podcast and get on a boat. And I'm learning how to drive and docket and it's like I believe trading is broad and open that world for me. Because I'm no longer fearful making mistakes. And I'm going to learn from them. And, you know, if I crashed into into a dock, so be it. I'll learn from it. And I'll get better. So that's the way I approach life now. And I think trading is a big part of that. Allen: Oh, that's wonderful. So the fact that you've been you've had some success in the trading has given you confidence in other areas of your life. Matt: Absolutely. That's something I can ever believe. Yeah, absolutely. Allen: That's so beautiful. Okay, so let's say one of your fellow employees at Costco, you're at Costco, right? Yes, yeah. So if one of your fellow employees at Costco comes up to you and says, Matt, man, I got to do something. You know, you told me you talked about trading a little bit, how do I how do I get started? What do I do? How do I make sure that I don't lose money? Matt: Well, go to Option Genius. But I would more so I would tell them that, you know, it's a process and you have to put in the work. There's no shortcuts. And you know, people say that all the time. And you have to really believe that in your heart, and you have to put in the work. And thank goodness paper trades out there. And you can make mistakes and learn from them. And just keep trying. And then when you're ready, do it. Somy advice is to absolutely take it slow. You know, everyone's different. You could paper trade three months, six months, but don't be hanging up for a year paper trading. I mean, you want to get out there and try. So but do it with a little bit of money that you're finally losing, and then just go on from there and reevaluate your process. So that's the advice that I would give them. And, of course, I want to help everyone out there, you know, because I have co workers that are in the same, I know the grind they go through each day. They're hard working people, they're looking for the same thing I am that they're trying to look, you know, to better their life or help people that are left to right of them, and get through and improve it. And, you know, this is out there for them. So I've just tell it, take it slow, be patient. I mean, it's very difficult to be patient, especially this day and age. But if you can harness that patience, you can achieve what you want to achieve. Allen: Well said, Well said. Yeah, I mean, you know, the cool thing is that we've I guess since you started, I think you've been sending us emails every once in a while. Matt: Probably a little crazy. Yes. Allen: Yeah no it's okay. It's not crazy? I mean, you know, I bombard people with email, we generally like to sometimes people, some people get three emails a day from us, it's like crazy. We need to work on that. Matt: I'm one of those people. And I'm like, wow, I'm like, man this is something else. Allen: There's too much going on. Yeah. So we need to work on a little bit there. But you know, so it's been fun to watch your progress over the past. You know, it's like, I try to if there's a trading email or whatnot, I try to read those. And if I don't answer them, at least I try to read and see what's going on. And I've seen your emails come through, and it's like, you know, this guy, he's getting it, you know? And whenever you ask a question, it's like, there there are some people that they're nice about it. And then there are some people who are like they expect the moon and the stars and everything in an email like, "Hey, I'm on your list. I want you to tell me every one of your secrets". Like how am I supposed to do that in an email? Matt: Yeah that's impossible. Allen: We share that for you. Like we could have a course about that. It would be like a 20 million-hour course. I could share everything and bring an email. I'm not writing all that stuff. But the fact that you took it slow and methodical and whenever you, you did the work. And then when you had a question, it was specific to that particular thing. So you could tell when I'm reading, I can tell, okay, this guy is actually trying to learn, he's actually trying to trade. And this has given me a question based on his actual experience. So I mean, that's in, you know, for those of you who are listening and be like, Oh, well, I asked a question, I didn't get an answer. Or, you know, he didn't give me a complete answer or whatever. It also depends on, you know, how you approach the question how the question is asked, and if it's gonna make sense or not, because we do get inundated with trading questions, and how do I do this? And how do I do that? And without proper background, we can't even give individual moves. Legally, we can't give individual advice. But even trading questions, it's like, okay, if I don't have the proper background into what you were thinking, when you were looking at a trade, then I can't give you a, you know, what I would do even because if I'm looking at a chart, and I think it's going to go down, and you think it's gonna go up, whatever I tell you, it's gonna be the opposite. And you'll be like, that doesn't make any sense. So I love the way that you have approached this. And you've been, you know, slowly, methodically, you pick something you realized from the beginning, you knew what you want it, you knew your why you understand, you know, compound interest, you understand how that works? And it's not going to happen overnight. How long do you think it took you until you started becoming like, consistently profitable? Matt: I would say about three or four months where I felt consistent, you know, first, you know, you could say, Oh, you know, it could be you just not, you're not sure until you really feel like, okay, I can repeat this month after month. And third kind of understanding, you know, not only the positives of a trade, but also the negatives, and you start kind of wrapping your head around it and start feeling comfortable, but not complacent, then you start, you feel like you're on the right road, so that that feelings and the results probably about three to four months for me specifically where I felt confident about the trade. Allen: Okay, and you trade the same stocks over and over again? Or do you choose different ones every time? Matt: I'm looking, you know, basically the same. You know, I tell the story, way back, I bought Airbnb, you know, an IPO, which stands for is probably overpriced. And I consider it as a mistake. But my wife and I did a covered call together, and we literally push the button together. And we're like, we made like, 500 some dollars off of that. And I was just like, we were just like, baffled, like, wait a minute that actually work. Like we just got paid for that. And we're just like, How can that be? So, you know, I read books on covered calls and things like that. And, you know, there's there's downfalls of covered calls as well, the dark side as you speak. And it's important to, to learn all the different strategies. But the point is, you don't need to know a ton of strategies to be successful, I think it's important for the viewer to focus on one and get really comfortable before you move on to other things. And I feel that's kind of where I am with oil now I'm comfortable with a trade and now unwilling to go into another world, and kind of explain that or, you know, explore that, and I'll take that slow as well. And, you know, it just starts being well, and overall process and you bring it together. And it's all about learning and what a beautiful thing. Allen: Yep. Yep. Very beautiful. So, and there might be some skeptics listening to this. And they'll be like, Well, you know, the last two years, we've had a really good bull market. So are you prepared for choppy market volatile market? down market? bear market? How would you adjust to that situation? Allen: You know, I think it's, I look back, I'm actually reading your book right now, how to hedge, you know, all the hedging strategies, and what I always call my replay in my mind, what will I do if there's a big crash, and I don't think you can ever, you know, fully prepare yourself, but there's a lot of things that you can do. I think the most important part of that is knowing a valuable company, it's knowing what kind of strategy you're going to use, you can never do bull put spreads continually, because you're going to get hit at some point. Right. So again, learn how to do a bear call spread and do some different things to hedge your position. So it you know, that's education by itself, but there's definitely some big things. You know, you got to look at each thing of, you know, a comfort level and then continuing education. I definitely am. I'll continue to get better at that as well. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, there's no way to tell which way the market is going, you know. Matt: Sure. Allen: I mean, we've been lucky that we've had a nice fed induced (inaudible) rally recently, the last couple years. But again, we don't know how long that's going to last and what's going to happen after that. But as somebody who has been doing this for, you know, a little bit longer than you have. Matt: Much longer. Allen: It's good to be able to, like you said, you know, understand the different strategies as well. And you said you've done you know, two or three of them and you've, you've practiced them over and over again. So that when things do change, that you can also see that coming and then you can change with it. So You know, I was talking to someone earlier today, and we were talking about and he was, he was asking about iron condors. And he's like, yeah, you know, I've tried honor condors didn't work at all. So how do you make them work? I said, Well, you know, every strategy doesn't work for every person. Some people might like one strategy, and they're really good at it. And somebody else, their brother might try it. And their brother might be horrible at it. You know, it's different risk tolerances, and different personalities will tell what strategy you should work on. And so.. Matt: Yeah, that's really fascinating. Like you said earlier, you know, we talked about how you can get the same trade as somebody, it just turns out different. And I think it's, it's fascinating in psychology, and it's also how, you know, you think of a trade and everyone's into individual to that trade. So it's pretty interesting. Allen: And you said, you had studied psychology, right? in school? Matt: Yeah, I have a degree in psychology from the University of Alabama. And, you know, I just, I never knew what I wanted to do in college. And it's interesting, I find myself using it. Now. I it's the psychology of the markets. And I think about how why people sell and why people buy and, you know, a lot of it's fear based, sometimes people that are very smart, do stupid things. You know, you just think that it's not that way, but it is very true. So it's, it's a whole, I never thought I'd be using psychology, but I do. I'm fascinated why people think the way they do. Allen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've been a big fan of psychology, just trying to understand myself, you know, and most of the time, like, you know, when we try to figure out, okay, hey, this stock went down today, what happened? A lot of times, we can't figure it out. I don't know, there's so many. There's so many background factors. But I think the study of psychology really helps in the big picture thinking, you know, you might not be able to figure out exactly why a stock moved up and down, depending on if there's some news about it. But the overall market like, hey, if this happens, then this is how people react. And then this is how they think. And then this is what happens in the stock market. So it's definitely a learning experience. And something that comes with years of experience, as you get used to it, say, Okay, I saw this happened. So I, I expected this to happen because of that. So it's really interesting. Allen: I really appreciate your time, Matthew, and just wanted to give you one more, you know, like hey, is there anything else that last words that you want to share with our audience?  Matt: Just I encourage people that are, you know, maybe thinking just like how I am, you know, they're out there working everyday life, and they just don't think that this is possible, and I just wanted to really encourage them to, you know, take a shot at it. And really, you know, if you're really interested in it, and put your 100% into it. And, you know, you could really surprise you on the other end, what life has to offer to you if you really get into it. And trading is a wonderful way to do that. So I'd really encourage people of all walks of life to try to better their situation, I think it's a great, great avenue to do so. Allen: Right. And you got started again, how? Just by reading a book? Matt: Yeah, I was just really looking at a compound interest chart. I was just, I just looked at it. And I was like, man, I could just kind of see the overall plan. I was like, I didn't know, you know, you know, everyone wants to be rich, and they want to have enough money. And it was a different feeling. At that time, I was young, and you know, mostly when you're young, or just want to get things and accumulate things and, you know, burn the world down. And that's not the case, as you get older, usually, you know, you, you find out what's really important. And to me, it's time with family and friends. And once I saw that chart, I could see the kind of overall kind of structure if you will, what I want to do. And then now as I got into it, I started filling in the blanks and seeing what way to get there. And trading is really kind of sped that process up. And I'm very excited about it. Allen: So do you see yourself like, okay, hey, you know, and this year, or this keeps up and you know, this age, I'm going to be a millionaire or 100 millionaire or something like that-  that doesn't appeal to you, right? Or does it sometimes? Matt: You know, like, I have a goal of turning you know, our money and making a million dollars. And that's, I wrote it down and seven years, I'd like to do that. If I don't get there, I'm not going to be upset about it. Like I said, you have to be happy about the process and excited about the process. And long as you're generally heading the right way. You can't help but be happy. I mean, if there's little setbacks, but if your general trajectory is moving forward, that's all you can ask for. And we're excited about that. So, you know, the number is less of a issue to me, as I get into it, you know, it's a great thing. And it's a great byproduct of what we're doing. But I think you just got to really look inward and be contentment and what really makes you happy in life, whatever it is you'd like to do. So, you know, money is just a tool to get there. And I I really feel that at this age, you know, it took me 20 years to figure that out. But yeah, it's exciting. Allen: Yeah, I totally agree with you and I'm excited for you, man. It's Just like, you know, you just get started now it's just, it's just up from here, you know, it's just the sky's the limit, and you know, a million dollars one day, you're gonna be like, Oh, that was nothing, you know? Let's go for 3, let's go for 5. Matt: You know, if not, I always say, Hey, you know, I can be happy I took a shot at So, you know, yeah, I left everything on the table. And that's what you have to do. And I couldn't be happier about that. Allen: But you've gotten it done. You know, it's not, it's not like, You got lucky, you've been doing it for consistently, you know, over and over and over again. And yeah, we've had a good market. And that helps. But you know, every market can be a good market, if you know what you're doing. So the fact that.. Matt: I'm very worried about that, because I started investing in 2009. Okay, so I've never seen a crash. And I know that and I'm aware that and I also look at, hey, what are my feelings going to be? And I try to read books about it, and listen to people and talk about their experiences, because I want to know what to do in that situation. So I could, that's a continuation thing for me. I mean, I know I have not been in a crash. That's all been up for me. And but I do know that I have to be wary of that. And I have to have a plan for that. And that's what I'm doing right now. So, you know, I don't want to get complacent and that I'm winning and winning and winning, because losses could be around the corner. And I just gotta know how to mitigate that process. Allen: So and see, I mean, just that comment right there. That's like, you know, this guy knows what he this guy's got a head good head on his shoulders. You know, he's not he's not overconfident. And he's not like, Oh, yeah, this is gonna happen for the rest of my life. I'm just gonna make money every month. No, I mean, I've been looking at it from all different angles, and you've been practicing and trading and different things. And you said, Oh, yeah, I've been doing put spreads. But I'm also doing call spreads, you know, because eventually, I'm going to need them. So it's like, yeah, there you go. That's it. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you do it the right way. You're doing it really the right way. And you started small and you're, you know, slowly, slowly, you're increasing. But you're still sticking to, you know, something that's manageable. You're not Oh, like you said that one trade I had. I mean, oh my god, out of 60 trades you've only lost one that's like, incredible. I never heard anybody do that. That's like, Well, can I give you my money? I want to go sail around the world here. You just take it in, take care of it for me. Matt: You can't have it back on if I lose it? Yeah. Allen: No, I think you'll be okay because you're getting prepared for it. You know, you're not blindsided. It's like, yeah, this is part of it. I've seen it. You know, you've maybe you haven't seen it yourself. But you've heard of it. But you're not. What are you like, 45 years at? Matt: I'm 45 Allen: Yeah, so you've been alive when there has been crashes? And oh, yeah. and stuff, you know, the.com bubble, everybody still remembers that? No, tell you about that. And, and stuff like that. So it's not like it's something completely out of the blue for you. If somebody was like 15 years old, or 20 years old - they're like, Oh, yeah, you know, I've never seen America crash. It's never gonna crash. But yeah, it's there. And you are, you're rounding out what I, you know, like, it's like, it's not just, you focused on something you learned about it, you practiced it, and you're like, Okay, this is working. Now I need to add to it, I need to add another skill, I need to add another skill. And you're, and you're still adding, that's the coolest thing that you're still growing, you're still learning. And you're still humble enough about it, so that you're like, you know, hey, I'm still working. And I work hard, and I have a good job, and I like it. But I would like to have more. And then eventually, I'm gonna work part time. That's really cool. Yeah. Matt: I actually parallel investing with running a marathon. You know  running marathons is a very difficult process, and it takes a lot of work. And there's a lot of dips along the way, and at times you feel like quitting, and there's a point of elation, and you have an angle. And I kind of feel like that kind of parallels my trading style. So I know that there's going to be, you know, mile 15 is going to be horrible. And mile 18 could be even worse. And then you get the mile 24 and you're like, elated. It's almost at the end. And that's kind of how investing is, you know, you have great times and you have terrible times. And you have to, you know, when you're training, you're accounting for all these processes along the way. You know, what shoes do I wear? How do I do this? If it rains? How do I count for this? I don't feel good. How do I account for that? What did I eat? all that stuff is very similar to how trading is in trading really, you learn a lot about yourself, just like you do in marathon running. I mean, you learn about what you're really made of, and the risk that you take and who you are as a person. So I think there's a lot of parallels there. Allen: Wow, yeah, I've never run a marathon but it sounds horrible. Matt: Yeah, I mean, people are like, they're either they do it or they want it done. I've got the bug. I was crazy. I decided doing but um, I don't do them anymore. I maybe maybe have one or two. I mean, I will see but uh, you know, I want to keep my knees going into my 50s. Allen: Cool. All right, Matthew. I really appreciate it. This was great. I mean, it's wonderful to see you know, somebody go from knowing nothing to making you know, four grand a month trading part time. And, you know, it's like, Hey, I can do this. If you can do for you can eventually do more, and it'll replace your income and make all your dreams come true. So kudos to you for getting in the path, taking the risk, and trying it out, learning, spending the time, and I hope that people listen to this and they're encouraged by it, they're inspired by you, I mean  when I heard your story, I was like, "we gotta get Matthew on the show". You know, forklift driver to early retiree. Matt: Yeah I hope so. I appreciate you guys and I can't thank you enough, you and your team, that there's actually people out there that teach this stuff and actually care about people, because there's a lot of people that don't have it all and I really appreciate that. Allen: Thank you Matt: Yeah I'm sure your viewers appreciate it as well. Allen: Yeah thank you for hanging out with us. Matt: Alright, thank you. LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/  WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com  JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

We begin with Socrates and the history and meaning of "APOLOGIA". How we should defend what we believe is true. We use Socrates as an example of the result of what happens when we go against the status quo. How can we stay safe and sane?And when mistakes happen, how do we apologize? How should we apologize? When is it ok not to apologize? We discuss the reasons why we fight and how we can reach a loving point. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Here we go, here we go. Do you even know, do you even understand when you come up behind me and you scare the heck out of me when I'm in the kitchen and I'm deep in thought and I jump, am holding my heart and I feel traumatized because all of a sudden you're like you just come up from out of nowhere. It seems from my perspective, And it scares the hell out of me. And then you get mad. Then we get into a fight because really all I need is an apology. Like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. [00:00:37] Matt: Oh, timeout, timeout, timeout. I'm just walking up to you. I'm not trying to scare you. I'm [00:00:43] Fawn: just walking up. Here we go again, link. You know what? I don't even remember all of our fights. Like we have so many fights that miraculously, I don't even remember the fights. I just remember the general sense of annoyance and, [00:01:00] and like rage, but honey, all you have to say once you realize I have calmed down is I'm sorry. Oh my God. Are you all right? Oh, no. Look at you. You, I totally startled you... like admit it, but you don't, you immediately go into a state of you're on trial and you're fighting for your, your, your perspective, your proving that you're right. Even though [00:01:31] Matt: I didn't do anything. See, [00:01:33] Fawn: that's the that's you did. Do... you scared me!!!!. Okay. [00:01:39] Matt: There's intent. Oh my God, your honor. [00:01:42] Fawn: All right, so good morning, everybody. Good evening. Good afternoon. Can I just say thank you, France. France is awesome. France has been such a loyal listener country like outside of the United States and you know what? [00:02:00] And so, so many other countries around the world. Thank you all for listening, please, please. If you could leave us a kind review on one of the platforms. When you go on our website, our friendly world.com, please. It helps out our show, which already you have helped so much. Thank you for listening everyone. Anyway, back to our fight. You ready? Oh dear. So we are always fighting. We love each other, but we're always fighting, but really the fight happens because It's to me, from my perspective, it's about all the making of excuses instead of just apologizing. And so when was it a, was it a few weeks ago or a few months ago at time is very weird for me. [00:02:50] Matt: Time is fairly fluid. Yeah. [00:02:51] Fawn: But I would say somewhat recently. You know, our whole basis somew

With any new product, building brand awareness is key. But when your new product is something the world has never seen before, well, you need to do more than just make people aware, you have to educate them, too. As a DTC company, you might have a direct line to your consumers, but you still need to be able to show and teach them as much as possible, and then be there around the clock to answer their questions and hold their hand through the process. It sounds like a lot of work, but when the product is changing the game completely, you have to be ready to get your hands dirty. And that's just what Matt Wall and I chat about today, who is the co-founder of Principle Faucets. Principle Faucets is a DTC brand that has created the first fully-integrated foot pedal system which not only saves water, but is more hygienic and improves faucet functionality. Matt dove into how he and his co-founders brought their foot-pedal faucet to the market, the amount of time it took to test and tweak to make it fit consumers needs, and then he goes into the process of what's it's been like to actually get it in front of people — a task made much harder when the pandemic caused them to shut down their mobile display unit. Here's a sneak peak on what Wall had to say: it takes finding the right niche within the industry and then hyper-targeting your search and marketing terms toward that audience to be successful. Plus, Matt tells us how to market the environmental benefits of something like the Principle Faucet across all different geographies,who are experiencing various degrees of climate change. Enjoy this episode and use the code UPNEXT20 for 20% off on your order at Principle Faucets!Main Takeaways:What's Your Niche?: It's easy to get lost in the deep sea of products that come up when they search a random keyword. You might see people finding your product or website, but the conversions won't be what you want. By dialing in on keywords and long-tail search phrases, you can more easily target the people who are actually looking to buy your product and then get them to convert.Never Before Seen: When you think you have built a better mousetrap, you still need to do market research to see if consumers want what you have to offer. Bringing a brand new company into the world with a brand new product no one has ever seen before is a risk, and you have to do your research before you take the bet to go into a market with a product no one actually wants or needs.Ease Them In: If your product requires consumer education or a change in behavior, it's wise to build in some tie back to what they are already familiar with. Asking a customer to do something completely new is scary, and will turn people off. It's better to give them a way to do a gradual implementation into their daily lives. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles CEO at Mission.org. Stay on the show. We have Matthew Wall, who currently serves as a co-founder at Principle Faucets. Matt, welcome.Matt:Thank you. My pleasure to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited. So for anyone who is not going to see video of this, Matt is sitting on top of a mountain at Lake Tahoe and it was teasing us with the view so we can all be very jealous and just let that sink in for a second. That's a first on this interview by the way.Stephanie:So before we dive into Principle Faucets and what it is, I want to hear a bit about your backstory and what even led you to where you are today.Matt:Sure, absolutely. So water conservation was always a big thing for me growing up something that my parents instilled in us myself and my sister living in California, dealing with droughts. And that was a very common thread with both my wife and my co-founder John Porteous. And we just wanted to do something that had impact and was meaningful. And in about 2015, we decided to really change gears and do something different with our lives for a few different reasons. And we bounced around a few different ideas and what stuck was finding a way to use water better in the home. It was something that we were familiar with at that point. My wife Lauren is an avid cook. Again, the water conservation stuff on our side, we just really wanted to do something that was meaningful with our lives.Matt:And we kicked around some ideas and came up with trying to add a foot pedal to a faucet. And at that point the idea just took off and we deviced prototypes and testing them a little bit, our homes and one thing led to another, we got a good response from some of the people that we shared it with. And gosh, we're now 2021 and we just launched the business in October of last year. So it's been a whirlwind, but we've really enjoyed it.Stephanie:Wow. So tell me a bit about, I'm just imagining you and your wife and your other co-founder all brainstorming. What were you guys doing before you even had this idea? Where were you working at?Matt:Sure. I worked for a small startup in the Watsonville area of California. And it's not your typical tech startup, but it was a small company that was started up. I was the first employee outside of the CEO and owner. So that experience in itself was really cool to see a business start and grow from basically zero revenue to there were about 20, $30 million by the time I left. So the exposure to that business was, I've carried a lot of my learnings there through to this business itself. And my wife Lauren actually was diagnosed with colon cancer about the time that we started talking about doing stuff different. So that was a very interesting awakening and really just lit a fire under us. And the fact that the reality of how short life is and all that stuff.Matt:So for her, she really wanted to kickstart her life and do something that's a bit more meaningful at the time. She was a stay at home mom and taking care of our lovely children. And my co-founder John, he has a law background. He was working at the DA's office. And I think in Modesto, California, but none of us were really just loving what we were doing. And we all just wanted to do something that we could just wake up and smile about in the morning and know that what we were doing, had a meaningful impact on the stuff that we really cared about most in life.Stephanie:That's awesome. That's such a good mix of people with different backgrounds and having urgency around it. And anytime, oftentimes you hear it, like the big ideas there are you're right there. There's always something that's there to stop you. I don't know if you've heard that when talking to other entrepreneurs, but there always comes something where it's like, are you willing to go pass this? Are you going to let this set you back? So I love that.Matt:Absolutely.Stephanie:So tell me a bit more about Principal Faucets. So I know it's a foot pedal. Are you constantly peddling? What does it look like as a user?Matt:Sure. The concept that we designed is an integrated system for a kitchen faucet. We have two product families and the integrated full kitchen faucet system is a standalone system. And it comes with our signature kitchen faucet, a little control box, and then our foot pedal that goes in the [Tokic] area of the cabinet. And we also have a adapter system that you can combine with an existing faucet that you already have in your home, in the kitchen or bathroom. So if you're not doing a remodel or needing to replace a faucet, this isn't a great option for you. Excuse me, to get all the benefits of a foot pedal. And the way it works is it can start and stop the flow of water. And it can also regulate the flow of water, like a gas pedal. So when you're working at the sink and you just need a little bit of water, you have all of that flexibility to get full stream and little stream and everywhere in between.Matt:And we really designed these systems to not necessarily replace the existing traditional hand operated way of operating a faucet. We just wanted to give you another option to accomplish those tasks. And I'm sure we'll get into it, but through a lot of the testing we've done and the water savings trials, it's really been interesting to see how people gravitate to using the foot pedal like 60 to 80% of the time, because it just makes a lot of sense. It really frees you up to do all the things you do at the sink a little bit quicker and faster. And then with the foot pedal shutting off the water automatically, as soon as you take your foot off of it, it captures all of those little bits of wasted water in between the stuff you do at the sink. So it's a really interesting win-win interaction with people who use the water and just interact at the sink. So those two products are where we focused right now, and we have plans to expand and move into some different stuff in the future, but that's still to come.Stephanie:I'm just imagining that all my sinks, everything having that, because I mean, like, have you ever measured the amount of germs on a handle? That's the first thing that comes to my mind of like, why are we touching these things in the bathroom? And there was a great skit when COVID first started around hand washing and this guy goes to the bathroom sink, washes it, and then looks around and realizes he touched the faucet afterwards, starts watching it again. Then he realized he touched the soap handles. Then washes his hands again. It's like everywhere and touching things. I'm like, why didn't we do this before? It was just always touching things, of course we're not clean.Matt:Yeah. It's been a really interesting and unfortunately with everything that's unfolded around the pandemic and over the last year. And so the hygiene aspects of our system have been front and center for us in our marketing, as well as just in the overall importance of having something like that in your house, it really does, and is a great solution for exactly that problem. Having to touch the faucet. You can walk right into your house, step on the pedal, wash your hands. You never have to touch anything. And it's great for adults and kids. And it's been good.Stephanie:[inaudible] not holding. I always take my twins. They're 16 months. I'm trying to hold them into the sink to wash them off while messing with the handle. And I'm like, there has to be a better way, there is. That's awesome.Matt:There is, yeah.Stephanie:Tell me about the early days of starting out. I mean, you just launched last year. What has that looked like?Matt:Oh, it's been a lot of work. For us at this point, it's all about driving brand awareness and getting our message out and getting in front of as many customers as possible. So we've been putting almost all of our efforts into just finding very crafty and unique ways with the pandemic to get out and show people the product one of the last January. So January of 2020, just right before everything hit. John and I, we built these beautiful mobile display units. So it has our two products on it, beautiful cabinets, it's modular, so you can wheel it in and out of places. And we had this grand idea, this traveling road show that we wanted to do, we rode down farmer's markets and go to offices and take it to everywhere, any place we could stick this thing and just show it to people, get them to come up and test it.Matt:It's fully functional. So it has a pump inside, self-sustaining electricity, all that kind of stuff. So you could really come up and use it, see it firsthand. And we were so stumped and then everything came crashing down. So...Stephanie:Man, that's a bummer, but it's ready for you now. The market is ready now.Matt:It is, it's beautiful. Yeah. So we really, we love the idea in our kind of direct to consumer model. We want to do that roadshow, we want to be the traveling salesmen again, that connection to our customers. There's no better person to be able to convey the importance, the value and the benefits of the product better than we can. So it's been really cool. We've, had a couple shows this year now where we've been able to take it out and actually gets up and it's been great. It's been a lot of fun. People get such a kick out of the whole concept of being it's a little show. I mean, you do the whole dog and pony thing. So it's been really cool. We're looking forward to doing a lot more of that.Stephanie:That's awesome. So what are your, how many units are you selling today? Was there an inflection point where you changed something in your marketing or you did something a bit different when all of a sudden it's like, boom, now we got to catch up?Matt:Yeah. We were pretty lucky that we pulled in a pretty good amount of product before the pandemic hit. So we've been pretty good on our inventory, but we've seen some pretty steady sales increase throughout the last year with the booms in remodeling and construction. So that's been a really great sustainer for us. I mean our product on our next round of production, we're going to be expanding into two other faucet lines. So we're really excited about that. And that's actually going to be, we should be placing those orders in just a few weeks, which should be here for the basically fall and winter time of this year.Matt:Iteration and changing of the products themselves. We have some stuff that will be changed in this next round, but we've been really happy with the way that product has performed at this point. We have had just great reactions for people who have purchased the product and installed it. And yeah, we're really happy with it at this point.Stephanie:Okay, cool. So when it comes to the product iterations, are you hearing feedback from the customers around different things that they need or was it more internally driven?Matt:No, it's been both. We try and keep in pretty close contact with our customers. We do follow up calls so often as long as they're receptive to them. Using the system, it takes a little bit of kind of, there's like a bit of a breaking in period. So it takes about a week to get used to it, using the pedal. And then once you do that some of the feedback we hear from our customers about it, they hate going to other people's houses because they walk up to the sink in the foot pedal, and they're just trying to tap on the ground to try and get the water to start. But product itself, some of the changes and iterations we want to make are about how the foot pedal itself installs or the toe kick. That was one of the sensitive areas for us in designing the product.Matt:There could be a lot of variation in cabinetry. There's no standard toe kick size. And you look at a modern kitchen versus a traditional kitchen and the cabinetry all different. So we built in an adjustable system so that you can get the foot pedal to the right height and position it optimally for comfort and use. But there's still some work to be done there. I think in getting that more universal for all applications in the cabinets and so forth. The outside of that, we really haven't run into a whole lot of requests for additional features or actual iterations on that the physical product itself, we have had asks for other finishes and designs and that kind of stuff. And it's really painful at this point because there's so much that we want to do with different designs. And I mean, sky's the limit with decorative plumbing stuff. But we got to start somewhere and grow the business and get there.Stephanie:So why did you guys choose to stay strictly D to C or now you starting to think about exploring retail or other spots to sell as well?Matt:When we originally came up with the concept, we knocked around a lot of different ideas and we looked at big box stores, distribution and so forth, but it just never felt right to us. Again, it went back to like, we just didn't want to be another faucet company that wasn't who we were. It, wasn't why we were doing what we're doing. We really wanted to feel like we're a company that really cares about what we're doing. And the way that we felt that was best was to be the first thing people saw when they came to our website and who they talk to and who they dealt with and who was able to handle their customer service questions or warranty issues or product questions. One of the things that's been really fun working with customers, we offer basically free live video demonstration, so you can schedule it to us and we'll set up a camera and use that mobile display unit that we have and walk through.Matt:And it's just so great to see, and the magic between having an intimate conversation with somebody who is interested in and really gets the concept and the importance of it. It's just been very rewarding and fulfilling for all of us. But I think as a business, long-term it's really hard to say. We would like to stay direct to consumer for as long as we can. It just makes sense for us right now. It's and yeah, it's been great.Stephanie:Yeah. So if you're going to stay in that area, I'm thinking like SEO has to be huge, even trying to get up to compete with people like best faucets. If someone sees a foot pedal, maybe they're like, "Ah, that's the wrong thing." So how do you go about reaching new customers and educating them quickly of like, "You could do this instead." It seems like a lot of things you have to think about, and it's not just competing with a traditional faucet. It's like, you have to do both things at once.Matt:Yeah. It's been tough. The faucet industry itself is very consolidated and there's a lot of Moen and Delta, Kohler. They control about 70% of the all sales within the decorative plumbing industry and they pour tons and tons of money into their ad placements and keyword placements and so forth. So we've been doing a lot of work in just trying to optimize our products in that area. So when people are searching for us, we don't want them to search for faucet and have our product come up every single time, we've have really had to narrow in, on our keywords and the short keywords and multi phrase keywords and long tail keywords to get people really want to search for a foot pedal faucet, or are looking for water conservation foot pedal faucets, or those different iterations so that we are able to show up.Matt:We end up spending a lot of money when we first started doing some online marketing, and ad placement stuff where we would get just tons and tons of clicks, but no conversions because they just, people would type in foot pedal and faucet or they'd type in foot pedal control. And things for pianos would come up or pumps for yeah. All kinds of stuff. And so we ended up... That was one of the first areas where we figured we had to dial in and really focus in on that. But outside of that, we're trying to get as much content out there as possible to not only on our website, but just with others. So on social media, Facebook and so forth just to help build some of that the organic growth for us, which has been good, but it's a tough game. There's a lot to do.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, you're innovating in a new market and trying to prove and show people why they need something. We've had a lot of brands on who have the same struggle around like having to educate a consumer. I mean, we had bidet company on here and they talked about most Americans don't think that's even something they would ever need. What channels or pieces of content are you finding are performing best they're going to help with that.Matt:Yeah, a lot of it's just around comparing water usage, which was one of the easiest ways for us to show the savings for the product. It's just showing somebody using a traditional faucet and somebody using our faucet system and the visuals of seeing how much, just no data, no nothing, it's so night and day between the two different systems and just the ease of flow of use. So that's actually been really effective for us. And just capturing and showing what the true nature and difference of that system is versus a traditional faucet. So that's been very impactful. And then in addition to that, delicately using hygiene as some of the ways of showing additional value of what you can bring to the home.Stephanie:Because I was thinking I would lean so hard into the hygiene piece because I had this one image in my head of, it was a piece of bread and it was a teacher who did this at school and they put their hand on it unwashed. And then the other one was maybe wiped down with water. The other one may be used, I don't know, what is it called? The one without water, Purex or whatever. And if there was hand washing with soap and she put them in a bag and left him for seven days, and then it was just the picture showing the seven pieces of bread and what the hand print looked like, very disturbing, maybe realize how gross my hands were, if they're unwashed and even how most ways don't even work that well. And it's interesting to see how just one piece of content was literally ingrained in my brain. And it's been like seven months. You can't get it out.Matt:Yeah. It's on the hygiene side of what we've been doing. It's been, kind of a balancing act because we don't want to scare people into thinking like you have to have our faucet. That's not why we're doing what we're doing, but it is an absolute benefit of having the system in the home. The one really weird twist to this all is when you're marketing things that claim to be hygienic or improve hygiene or kill germs, there's a lot of regulation and requirements. You can be considered a pesticide product. And when we first started marketing our product, there were some issues where we came across where we weren't allowed to show the product online in certain areas because we were being flagged as a pesticide products and it blew our minds that a faucet system would even be considered as a pesticide product, but in the verbiage and the way that we were talking about germs and helping to not spread germs in the home, washing your hands before, so that's been an interesting road to navigate.Matt:We've really kind of had to just do some very kind of common sense type of marketing with the hygiene stuff. You come home, you don't have to touch your faucet. It helps reduce the spread of germs in your home because it's pretty self-explanatory when you really boil it down.Stephanie:Yeah. Oh, interesting. I never even knew that was a thing that you can get around. Yeah. Promoting hygiene. Okay. Have you all explored Amazon or have you not really even thought about that yet?Matt:We have, we're actually selling on Amazon now. And it's been pretty good. It's been an interesting set up process. From the merchant standpoint, Amazon's designed for multiple people to sell off single product pages as a conglomeration of a bunch of people selling the same products so that you get the best price, but we're the only one out there selling our product on Amazon. So we had to go through and do a lot more of the setup process and go through. And the whole pesticide thing that I mentioned was actually as part of what Amazon had us do and go through and acquire. So that took a lot of thinking and figuring out as to why that was happening. But yeah, we got it. Amazon's a great tool for small companies. We plan to stick around there as long as it works for us. And sky's the limit, it's just a matter again, of paying for contents and getting your product placed out in the right spot.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems like there could be so many moments you could create for your customers too, after they buy, just like things like a little card maybe that has a note on the sink, that's like, look down your pedals below for your water, for any of their guests or something. How have you guys thought about shaping the experience, the unboxing experience and then creating joy even afterwards.Matt:Yeah. We focused a lot on the product itself to make a product that was worthy of what we were doing. Quality-wise, construction-wise, materials so that when somebody does get it home and they open it, it looks and feels like something different, something that's a little special. So if we have done some investment in that, the packaging and unveiling of the stuff, we have some really nice dark foam and some nice packaging on the boxes and stuff, which has been a really cool thing to see and fun thing to develop. Long-term, we have tried to build in some features actually to the faucet system itself that allows either new users or existing users to use both the inside of the hand operated valves on the faucet or the foot pedal.Matt:We designed the system. So you never really have to choose one or the other for the Principle Faucets system, the kitchen faucet, the faucet has all of the existing capabilities of the hand operate valve, that's all there, doesn't change. There's nothing you have to do to switch back and forth between the foot pedal and the hand operated valve. So if somebody comes over your house who is not familiar with it, they can walk right up to it, use a hand operated valve, do everything they're used to doing. And if they want to explore a little bit, they can go down and start to use the foot pedal too. One of the features we built into the pedal well to help with the user experience was this, we call it our tapta flow feature, and essentially you just tap the pedal quickly and it'll actually allow the faucet to run continuously without having to keep your foot pedal on it.Matt:So if you're filling a pot of water, you want to feel the same to do dishes. You have that ability. So you're not tied to the sink. If you want to use the foot pedal on that way. With our adapter system, that can be connected to any existing faucet in the kitchen or bathroom. We also built in a feature for that system that allows you to default back to the existing hand operated valves indefinitely, if you choose to, and it's basically, you just tap it twice. And that way, if you have people coming over, using the bathroom or in the kitchen, and you don't want to deal with it you just tap it twice. And all of the function goes back to the faucet as well. So we really tried to bridge that gap so that, new users and existing users don't have any issues with trying to do what they need to do.Stephanie:I could see eventually customers being like, "I don't even want the hand operated piece. Everyone needs to use it this way and just take that off."Matt:I mean, it's been fascinating to see how people gravitate to use the foot pedal. I mean, it's blown our wildest dreams. And the beauty of that is that you get all of the water savings by using the pedal. We'd done some water savings tests when we were initially going through some of the product developments. We did eight homes here in Central California, and some of the homes were multi-generational, they had grandchildren, parents, or grandparents, and some were single individuals. I mean the whole gamut apartments, condos, houses, and we found that the water savings compared to an existing faucet was up to 44%. And when we dove into the data a little deeper, we found that the homes with the highest water savings were the ones that with the biggest water wasters prior. So it really helps the people that ended up using more water save the most which is really a great sign for the impact that the product might have in the future as we get into more and more homes.Stephanie:Yep. Oh, that's really cool. Do you ever have issues with the messaging for consumers outside of California? Because I'm thinking when I'm from Maryland, we really didn't think about water conservation. We didn't have droughts. And I remember moving to California in the Bay Area. I was like, whoa, this is a thing we actually might not have water, what? I mean, I heard about people in Mill Valley area saving their shower water, and doing other things with it. And I was like, this is a new thing for me. So how do you guys go about crafting the message so it connects with people all throughout the U.S.?Matt:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the droughts here in the West are horrible, some of the worst on record. And then you have severe storms and flooding on the other side of the U.S. So the way we've crafted and are working on that message to really join them together is that they're both the products of the same thing. So the droughts here are the product of carbon emissions and global warming and climate change. That's affecting the West in this way, on the East Coast where there's too much water and too much rains, it's all the product are the same, they're all symptoms of the same thing. And for us saving water whether you have too much of it, or you have too little of it, it's all benefiting and helping out the same problem.Matt:It's cutting carbon emissions, it's reducing amount of chemicals that go into the environment by reducing the amount pumped water that needs to be actually treated, transported to your faucet and then goes down your drain without even being used. And then the chemicals that need to be used to treat the water when it goes into the waste facilities. So it's interesting when you think about the two polar opposites of it, but they're all from the same problem. So that's how we've had to craft it. We all need to do what we can do, every little bit counts. And if you can save water at your faucet, it's only gonna help the problem.Stephanie:Yeah. That's such a good explanation. And one that I've never even really thought about, okay, what happens when the water goes down the faucet and all the things that go into it to make it come back again. And yeah, that's a really good way to message it.Matt:Yeah. There's a lot that that goes into treating water, a lot of chemicals and stuff. So, using every bit in a way that counts really helps cut down on all that stuff.Stephanie:Yeah. Very cool. Were there any big bets that you've made over the past year that you weren't really sure if they were going to pay off other than the mobile unit that you guys are wheeling around because that one paid off now, but anything else that comes to mind?Matt:So big bets that we've placed around the business. Being a smaller business as we started and grown, capital's king and trying to figure out how we want to best use some of that money towards marketing and where we wanted to put it into either PR or working with influencers and doing paid content type of stuff. Putting the, I mean, every dollar that we've put into those areas has paid off massively and we didn't go in blindly. We took our time and really tried to find people that got the product and were in similar head space around conservation, water savings, cooking because those are the people who really get it and find the most value in it. So when we've been able to reach out to those people and have them share that message with their base of followers that has actually putting them out of money that we put into that area, it was a good bet. And I'm glad that we did it.Stephanie:Yeah. It sounds like a lot of the themes around your business have been around niching down, niche down with the right people over PR and content is down on the keywords and really getting down to the perfect audience and consumer who's ready to hear that message and ready to buy before going big to everyone.Matt:Yeah. We're a brand that nobody's ever heard of before and we're selling a product that no one's ever seen before. And we found out really in early development when we sat down and just pitched the idea to people, to see if there was going to be a market for this thing. And if somebody had done it beforehand, where did they fail? Where did they succeed? It was really interesting to see how people connected with concepts. And we talk to professional chefs who do a lot of cooking in the home, and they're like, "I've been waiting for this thing forever. How come nobody's done this?" And we talked to people who are doctors and dentists and like, "Oh yeah, I have those at the shop, we use those all the time." Of course, that makes sense to have that home. It just hygiene and efficiency.Matt:And we talked to mothers with kids, fathers with kids, and it all came down to the fact that they would just be like, "Well, why has nobody done this before?" It just makes a lot of sense. And that really helped instill in us the fact that there could be a need for this out in the market. And we ended up going to some trade shows early on just to snoop around because we had getting no experience in the industry at all. We knew nobody, no manufacturers. And again, just pitched the concept to a bunch of the people were there. We were super scared somebody was going to steal the idea out from under us. So we were very coy about it, which is probably silly. But it was interesting to get their feedback and hear what some of the biggest manufacturers in the industry said about it.Matt:And we approached them and early on say, "Hey, we have this concept, is there anything, do you guys want to partner with us or is there any interest in looking at this, we'd love to come talk to you about it." And it's funny. They just never got back to us. Never wanted to hear about it, but-Stephanie:They will. Now.Matt:Yeah, they will now, but even the retail showroom, we stopped in and talked to a bunch of people all over California just about how they show products and discuss it with their customers in the stores. And another one of the reasons why we wanted to go direct to consumer was because of some of the limitations around actually explaining our product to customers in those environments. And in the big box stores, you're just another box on a shelf.Stephanie:Yeah. I was imagining [inaudible] Home Depot, just like a little foot pedal being next to all these faucets and being like, I think this is another mile.Matt:Yeah. And even in retail showrooms... to show people and have them really understand the value of it. You got to use it, or you got to see somebody using it. And that was definitely one of the driving factors for us to want to just be like, we got to put videos everywhere of this thing. We got to build this traveling road show. We just got to show as many people as possible how it actually works, have them come and use it because that's how you connect with it.Stephanie:Yeah, how long was that time period of researching the market and asking questions and having people look at it?Matt:It was a long time. We started first developing this product in 2015 and it was just tinkering around in the garage. I've always loved goofing around and stuff and tinkering and whatnot. So we just decided to do it ourselves. And we build a proof of concept in the garage. Brought it into our kitchen, hooked it up, look terrible, total Frankenstein, hoses and stuff going all over the place. But it probably had about 60% of the functionality that we have in our product now. So it was a pretty good gauge on using it and understanding it. And at that point, that was basically the limitations of our capabilities. So we hired some engineers, excuse me, we hired some engineers to help us of take it to the next step, develop a true prototype that worked like, functioned like what we wanted to come to market with.Matt:And those were the prototypes that we use for the water savings trial here in California. So we had several of those made up. That was probably about a year long process at least. And once we had those prototypes built and got all this feedback from people using them in homes all over, we took a pause at that point. We could have gone and just try to find somebody to manufacture it really fast, but we didn't have the confidence we really thought we needed in order to go forward. So we ended up going to a trade show ourselves and exhibiting with these prototypes. And we built a display unit very similar to the one that we have that we're using for the road show. And we doctored up the display unit with some other prototype boxes and stuff.Matt:So it really looked nice and clean, like a finished product, but it was all frankensteined in the back and using our prototypes. And we basically told people that we were ready to manufacture and gave somewhat of a misleading understanding of where we were in the whole process. But we wanted to see what industry folks, people who were in showrooms in the Home Depos and big box stores of the world, they all came by and they took a look at it. And the response again was just so far above and beyond what we expected that people were like, "Can we get on a waiting list? Where do we sign up? When are these gonna be developed? Can we place an order now?" I mean-Stephanie:Wow.Matt:... we were so unready for all of that, but it was great. And it really gave us the resolve we needed to go forward and find someplace to manufacture this and get it to market. So at that point, after that showing to the industry, we found some folks that well kind of to back up a little bit, we wanted to originally manufacture the product in the U.S. and unfortunately, we talked to large manufacturers here in the U.S., we talked to some OEM manufacturers here in the U.S., and they were either so busy or they just didn't want to deal with a new person or a company that was going to have small volumes to start off. It's a new product, we never developed anything like that before. So we ended up meeting some people at the trade show who put us in contact with some people in China. And we went over there and met with a bunch of different factories and found some just amazing folks to help us manufacture it over there.Matt:And that whole process was a whole story in itself because both faucet manufacturers over there, they're great at building faucets. I mean, there's good and bad factories all over the world. Thankfully we found one that was just a great, great group of people and really focused on quality materials. They were great at faucets, but didn't have a lot of experience in electronics and our systems, kind of a little bit of both. So we had to go in and to go find another manufacturer for just electronic components. But of course the manufacturer is doing electronic components, doesn't want to do any water testing because that's not what they do.Matt:The faucet manufacturer doesn't want to do electronics assembly. It's not what they do. So we had to put together this group of not only components, but manufacturers over there, get them to work together which wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, but it's been a learning process for sure, because the assembly process for electronic components assembly, the little control box that we have, it needs to be tested for watertight, seals and function, but we had to come up with a way to do that with air testing at the electronics facility, and then come up with a way for our faucet manufacturer to then combine to a final testing of the product to make sure everything worked still watertight and all that, but do it in a way that the water wouldn't interfere with some of the electronic components.Matt:So we ended up doing some iterations kind of, as we were manufacturing with electronic components in particular dialing in adding some actual hardware to the control box itself to allow the manufacturers to speed up the process, make it more reliable. And it was great. I mean, the factories, they have everything you could possibly need to help prototype and do stuff, add components, test components. So it was really cool to see, and we really enjoyed a lot and still do it working with those folks.Stephanie:That's great. I mean, I love that story because so many people right now hear of these DTC companies, just rocket chips, just easy. It looks easy from the outside. And I like actually hearing a real life story of like, "Nope, took a few years, took a lot of testing, had a little hesitancy," and yeah, I mean, that highlights what building a company actually looks like most of the time.Matt:Yeah. It's the most enjoyable thing I've ever done, but it's also the scariest thing I've ever done hands down.Stephanie:I feel that, I feel that. Outside of porter bodies, how they have those little pump sinks, did you ever get one of those and be like, "How do you work?" To figure out maybe like how they function and then have any good takeaways from that one?Matt:Absolutely. We bought and test tested all kinds of stuff. We, I mean, you name it valves, Mike Raj was just an absolute disaster. We had pumps like that physically applying pressure to the pump to get the water to flow. There was pneumatic valve that we were testing, hydraulic valves that we were testing. And it was really interesting. They all pointed us to one direction and we ended up going with an electronic system instead of something that was more mechanical. The issue that we found out with doing something more mechanical, like those pump valves or other industrial metal valves that you can buy for kitchens and so forth. They're very simple themselves they don't require any electricity, but the issue we found with those is if you're going to make a product that is going to be successful in a residential setting for people in homes who have expensive cabinetry, expensive flooring, those other methods were very invasive and destructive to the cabinetry themselves.Matt:If you tried to install them even in new construction, but specifically in existing cabinetry, you had to cut holes, you had to plumb water lines underneath the cabinets where these could happen. You'd never see them until it was a disaster. So we wanted to keep all of that water connections and areas that could leak. We kept them up out from underneath the cabinet, inside the cabinet, where you can see everything, you can know where everything's connected. And we just run a very simple communication line down to the foot pedal itself. So not only do you not have to cut holes in your cabinets, but the foot pedal itself just installs with a couple of screws, you retain all of the existing cabinet space that you have, because Lord knows, we put a ton of stuff under our kitchen cabinets, whether we choose it all or not, is still there.Stephanie:Only one that look under there right now, it's been there for a long time. It's not coming out.Matt:Yeah. In that whole process of really coming up with the way in which we wanted to use what technology you wanted to use, to make it all function correct. We wanted to go something electronic for those specific reasons. It just allows you to install the whole system in a much easier way as well. And we set out initially to design the product so that it a DIY enthusiast, your average we can wire could go and install it in their home. They're capable of into going to Home Depot or Lowe's or something like that to buy a faucet, install it. This is going to be absolutely no brainer for them. But of course not everybody is going to do that. I know plenty of people who just don't wanna install faucet. So we also-Stephanie:[inaudible].Matt:Sure. I mean, it's just the reality of it all and it's all of the connections and fittings that we use to connect to your existing water lines and faucets and so forth and house they're all standardized. So it's all very easy for a plumber to come in and hook it up and know what to do.Stephanie:Yeah, that's awesome. That's the route I would choose unless there was a very easy YouTube video. Maybe I would attempt it. I don't know.Matt:Yeah.Stephanie:Depends how I'm feeling that day.Matt:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:Where do you all want to be in the next year? What are you most excited about?Matt:Oh man. I'm actually most excited about getting some of our new designs in production. We've had a lot of requests for additional finishes and additional designs and even expanding some of our additional hardware that comes with the faucet systems themselves because people have been asking for it and it's been frustrating for us because we're like, "We know, we know we wanted to," but as you grow a business, you got to kind of do it incrementally make sure you're at the right point and then pull the trigger on it. So I'm very excited to see this next wave of products come to the market and then see how they do, it's going to be great.Stephanie:That's great. All right. Well, let's move over to the lightning round when you're on, is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Matt:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. What one thing do you think will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Matt:I think the biggest thing that'll have an impact on ecommerce in the next year is going to be finding ways in which we can reduce shipping costs. That's been a big barrier for us. It's expensive for everybody. So I'm looking forward to innovations that will be coming to lowering and speeding up product delivery.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I've heard that a lot throughout all the interviews, so you're all thinking on-Matt:Somebody is going to... Who's working on that.Stephanie:I know. Come on, come on the show, tell us about it. What is the best advice you've gotten since starting this business?Matt:Wow. It's to go with your gut. Collectively between Lauren, myself and John, we've hired a few consultants here and there to help us, and they've been very good at helping guide us in certain areas where we're just deficient in that training or information. But it's really interesting when you look at it and you're like, yeah, that's what we wanted to do the first place. But it, yeah, that's...Stephanie:That's a good one. Even if it takes a few consultants to tell you and you're like, "Oh, okay, I'm just going to go."Matt:You just got to go, you go with your gut.Stephanie:Yeah, what's up next on your reading list or podcast?Matt:Ooh. Up next on my reading list is a book called Conscious Medicine and it's about microdosing different types of psilocybin and a few other things to, how to incorporate that in and use it. I've experimented that stuff over the last year actually, and had some great experiences.Stephanie:Cool. I'll have to check that one out. Sounds good. All right. And then the last one, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you in your whole life?Matt:Ooh, man. Probably marry me. I would have to thank my wife for that one. That is by far and away the nice thing. Yeah. I owe a lot to her. She's the woman behind the man for sure. Where I'm off and they are, we work really well together and I'm blessed to have her as a partner in business and in life. So I got a lots of thanks for her.Stephanie:Yeah, that's amazing. All right, Matt. Well, this has been such an amazing interview. Thank you for joining on the top of a mountain. It's been fun just watching what's behind you. Where can people find out more about you and Principal Faucets.Matt:Yeah. You can check us out at principlefaucets.com, got a bunch of good information there. You can explore around and as well as on Instagram just @principlefaucets.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Matt:Thank you. Really enjoyed it. 

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part three of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you've been enjoying this series so far. This is The Roundtable of World Changers, a conversation I had with Matt and Caleb Maddix, and a whole bunch of young entrepreneurs, who are literally out there trying to change the world. This is part three of a four part episode, because the conversation went for three or four hours. And so, this episode's also going to be about 40 minutes long, and it's the next set of questions they asked me. And if you've listened to the last two, you know that these guys ask a lot of questions, in a lot of different directions, and angles, and went all over the place. And I think this time is probably 01:00 or 02:00 in the morning. And so, the questions started going from everywhere, from business, to relationships, to families, and a whole bunch more. So I hope you enjoy this next episode. Here's some of the bullet points of things you're going to learn about. We talked about the 10 commandments of marketing. I talked about my very first mentor, and a thing he taught me, not just to make money in the short term, but how to build a business that now has lasted me for almost two decades. I talk about one of my friends and mentors, Daegen Smith and something that he taught me. It was so simple, yet it's been the key to help me get thousands of people a day to join my email list. We talked about leadership, delegation, scheduling. We talk about, as you're building a team, understanding people's unique abilities. Talked about how much time you spend thinking about the future. Talked about proximity with billionaires. We also talked about how to balance your business and married life, so you can be a good husband and a good father, which is something that I stress about all the time. We talked about a principle that I learned from Stacey and Paul Martino, that has been one of the most powerful things I've learned, which is called demand-relationship. I talk about that. We talk about some relationship tricks, for those who are either married or getting married. Some of the newlyweds, and the engaged couples, were asking some questions about that. Hopefully I don't get in trouble for sharing some of my tricks. We talked about knowing what your values are, and your priorities. Talked about being vulnerable, and being honest, versus staying positive through challenges. We talked about some of the biggest principles and things I learned from Tony Robbins, including how to change your state whenever you need to. And we talked about my 12 year relationship with Tony Robbins, and all the things behind that. We talked about... I don't want to spoil any more. You guys, this is a fun interview. And hopefully, you've been enjoying these so far. So with that said, we're going to cut to the theme song. When we come back, we're going to take you guys immediately back into this conversation. This is, again, The Roundtable of World Changers, part three of four. Matt Maddix: Let's say there was a Russell Brunson 10 commandments. You know how God had one. Russell: Thou shall build a list. Matt: Yeah. How high is this in the 10 commandments? Russell: My first mentor, Mark… Matt: And what would be some of the Russell Brunson... Let's come up with some of them. Like, "Thou shalt..." Russell: We need some stone tablets. Matt: "To all the funnel hackers, thou shalt and thou shall not." I want to hear- Russell: That would be a fun presentation, actually. Matt: Yeah, that would be, actually. Caleb Maddix: That would be. Russell: That would be cool. Matt: Dude, you need to do that. Russell: Come back from the mountain, we have 10 things. Matt: Yeah, seriously. Caleb: Wow. That'd be awesome. Matt: No, the five 'thou shalts', and like, "Thou shall..." and then- Russell: "Thou shall..." Matt: ..."Thou shall not, no matter what..." What would some of those be? Russell: That could be a really cool presentation, actually. Well, so I would say, in my first venture was Mark Joyner, and he was the one... So in context, in history, 18 years when I started, Mark Joyner... I don't think it's probably known. He's brilliant. But he built a company, and sold it off. And at the very end of his career as a coach person, I got to meet him and get to know him a little bit. But I remember, at that time, Google AdSense was this thing that came. And so, if any of you guys are old enough, just try and remember the Google AdSense days. It was insane. They were software. You click a button on software, it would pop out of site, pop out another site. And these sites would make anywhere from 100 to $1000 a day. And you just keep clicking this button, it would pop out another site. And so, people were making $1 million a month. They had teams in the Philippines, that these guys just clicking the button to build the software. It was just... But it was all fake. But it was tons of money. Insane amounts of money. I had friends making so much money. And shiny object, very shiny object, the most sexy shiny object of all time. You click a button, you can make $1 million. That was it, that was the pitch. And it was true. Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For so... Everyone I knew. Can you imagine that? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: If I go back in time, 18 years ago, I would move to the Philippines, I would hire everybody, and we would just click buttons. And I would've been- Caleb: Wow. Russell: ...a billionaire. It was- Caleb: Wow. Russell: It was insane. That's how Google got people adopting the AdSense program. So people would put ads on every single site, every single everything. And so, I'm getting in this game, I'm seeing this, and I'm morons making insane amounts of money. And I was like, "Ah!" And Mark had just become my mentor, the very first time, and he's like, "That's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like, "But this guy's a moron. He made $1 million last month clicking a button. No strategy, no brains, no nothing." He's like, "I know, but it's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like- Matt: Wow. Russell: But- Matt: Seriously? Russell: "He's clicking a button. Building lists is hard." He's like, "Build a list." I'm like... And I remember fighting him and fighting him, he's just like, "Dude, trust me. I've been on cycle. It's going to go away. Just focus and focus." And I was so upset, but I listened because I do that. One thing I pride myself on, I'm very coachable. Coach tells me something, I do it. I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. Matt: I love it. Russell: They tell me to do it, I do it, right? So I was like, "Ah, but there's free money in piles-" Matt: Even when it's hard- Russell: "All right." Matt: ...you do it. Russell: So I did it. And sure enough, I was doing that, and doing that, within six months, this things collapsed, disappeared, destroyed people's lives. Because you're making $1 million a month clicking buttons, what do you do? Especially as a young kid. Matt: Spending that much money. Russell: You're buying Lambos, and Ferraris, and helicopters, and pilots, and girls, and insane amounts of money. And then it disappears overnight. Devastating, ruined these guys, ruined them, so many people. Matt: There's no skill behind that at all. Russell: Yeah. And I had a list, and I just coasted through it. Right? And I've looked at the SEOs, every single up and down, up and down, through the years, and I just listened to Mark and just focused on building my list, focused on building it, and- Matt: So you still feel that as strong today, as when you heard it? Russell: 100%. Matt: Even then. Russell: 100%. That's one of our KPIs. How many people doing lists today? Every single day. Matt: Really? Everyday? Russell: Everyday. Because I did it for a long time- Matt: Even now, you're saying? Russell: 100%, everyday. John Parkes everyday sends me a number. “How many people joined our list yesterday?” That's all I want to know. Caleb: What's your guys' email open rates? Russell: It fluctuates. 20 ish percent. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Around there. But it was funny because I remember, I had forgotten that lesson after a while. And if you guys know Daegen Smith, Daegen, he's getting back in the game now. He's brilliant. But I remember I had a list, and I was my money off of it. I wasn't focusing on it. And I remember he asked me a question, he said, "How many..." It wasn't, "How many people are on your list?" Because that's what most people ask, "How big's your list?" But he asked me a different question, which input output, right? Matt: Yeah. Russell: The question was, "How many people joined your list today?" And I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Go look right now." I'm like, "Okay." So I log in, and look at the thing, it was like 12. And I was like, "12?" And I was like, "Is that good or bad? I don't know." And he's like, "Let me show you mine." And he showed me his, and it was like 1400. And I was like, "You had 1400 people join today?" He's like, "Yeah." "Wait, how'd you do that?" He's like, "I just look at it everyday. And when I look at it everyday, somehow it grows." And I was like- Matt: Wow. Russell: "Okay." So then, everyday, after I log in and look at my thing, it was like 12, I'm like, "Ah." In my head, I'm like, "Fricken Daegen had 1400. I only 12." Caleb: Yeah. Matt: Wow. Russell: And also, I was like, "What do I do to get people to join the list?" Matt: Yeah, start optimizing. Russell: And then, your mind starts thinking differently, and all of a sudden you start focusing on it. And it's crazy. I can't tell you how many entrepreneurs, that have been in my world, who have gone up and then come down. And what happens, mostly, is they do something, they build a big list, they stop adding fuel to the fire, they have this list, they sell things to the list, the list atrophies, and eventually starts shrinking and dying. And then, they don't know how to build lists, the business crashes and dies. Matt: I hope you guys are really listening. Really. I mean, he's- Caleb: That's powerful. Matt: ...saving your life right now. Russell: The question, the goal, every single day, is that, because it's a fuel to your fire. And what happens was you stop putting fuel on the fire, and it doesn't die immediately. So you're like, "Oh, I've turned off Ads, so I'm good. But I'm just going to focus on emails, let's focus that." But just every email you send out, your list atrophies, shrinks, dies. And then, eventually, it'll just die. And so, yeah, if you're not consistently, constantly feeding the list, every single day- Matt: And once you have the list, what's the biggest mistake people make with their list? Russell: They don't email it. Matt: Yeah. Russell: They're scared to... You think it's too much emails. It's not, it's the opposite. It's that they don't email. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Minimum of three times a week. Closer to everyday. Matt: Wow. Russell: If you talk to Daegen, it's twice a day, everyday. Matt: Really? Caleb: What other KPIs do you have sent to you every single day? Russell: I want to know how much we made yesterday, striped. Because first off, it's cool to know. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: But second off, also it's like, I want that number to be bigger everyday. So it's like, actual money in the thing, how many people joined the list today, and how many books are sold, how many ClickFunnels members. Those are the ones for me. Our teams have other KPIs they focus on. But those are the ones I care about. Matt: So out of 30 days, when you hear the numbers, how often are you pissed and how often are you like, "Yeah."? Russell: Nowadays, it's always pretty good. Matt: Nowadays, it's like, "Woo." Russell: Because it might go up or down a little bit, but the numbers are big enough, that it's just like, "That's so crazy." I remember... Anyway. I remember just the growth of ClickFunnels, because you know Stripe dings every day with your numbers. I remember when we started going, it got to the point where it's like $10,000 a day, I was like, "$10,000 a day is insane. That's just so cool." And then, it got to a point where it's like $20,000 a day, and then 30, and then $50,000 a day, and then $100,000 a day, and then 150, then 200, 250, 300. I'm just like, "This is insane to me, that this is a daily thing that come..." it was just... Anyway, that's when it got just weird. And it makes me mad because Todd made a commitment to me, that as soon as we passed $500,000 a month in sales, he'd move to Boise. Matt: And he didn't yet? Russell: No. So... Matt: You were out of there already. Russell: And then, I was like, "Well, we have $500,000 a day." And then, he still hasn't come. So I don't know. Some day. Do you think Todd will ever move to Boise? Speaker 4: Plus I'm curious if I could pop in to ask a question. Russell: Yeah, feel free. Speaker 4: I've always wanted to ask someone of your stature, that's done as much as you have, impacted as much people as you have, and really built the business that you have. So I'm curious on your take on leadership, building a team, delegating, and your schedule and how you go about scheduling your day, and prioritizing what's important for you, as a business owner, and what you delegate to your employees and their responsibilities as well. So leadership, delegating, and scheduling. Russell: Good question. It's interesting because I would say I'm not the best leader on my team, by any stretch. And so, it was interesting because I spent the first four or five years with ClickFunnels as the CEO, trying to do my best with it. But it wasn't my unique ability, is leadership. I feel like I'm good at leading a community, but I struggle a lot more with employees and teams, internally. And so, about a year ago or so, I handed the reins to Dave Woodward, to be the CEO of ClickFunnels. And he's been amazing. Man, what he's done inside the company has been awesome. And I think a big part of it is understanding, at least for me personally, I was trying to be a leader, and trying to develop that, but I wasn't the best at it. And I think sometimes we think it's always got to be us. Like, "It's my company, I got to be the CEO. I got to be the leader. I got to do these things." It's understanding that a lot of times there's people who are really good. Who's the best you could find to be that? Or any part of our business. You know what I mean? It's a big part of it. The second thing is, if you've studied Dan Sullivan at all, one of his biggest things is unique ability. That's the thing. What's your unique ability? What's everybody's unique ability? And I think when you start a company, it's tough because it's like everyone's in charge of everything, right? I'm the CEO, but I'm also taking out the garbage, I'm also doing... everyone's Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: ...doing a little bit of everything, which is cool. When you're scrappy in the beginning, that's important, and everyone's doing that. But as you grow, that starts hindering you more and more and more, where we had people who are insanely talented, who if I could just get them doing this thing, 100% of the time... And that's when it got to the point with ClickFunnels, is that my unique abilities are writing, are being in videos, are building funnels, doing the... Those things are my unique abilities. Caleb: Engineering. Russell: Yeah. And I was spending maybe 10% of my time on that, and 90% of the time in meetings, and trying- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...coordinate people, and leadership. And it was stressful and it was hard. Matt: And you were draining. You were probably drained doing that. Russell: Yeah. And I was miserable, that was just... I wasn't good at it. Not feeling good, like, "Ah, I'm not getting through to people. I can't figure this out." But I felt like I had to own, I had to be the guy, I had to do the thing because this is my baby, this is my business. And the last 12 months has been crazy, because I handed it to someone who actually is good at that, that is his unique ability. And I'm watching company structure, and meetings, and KPIs, things that I was never super good at doing, and consistently having it all happening now. And now, I'm in the marketing department again, and I'm building funnels. People are like, "What do you do all day?" I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. "No, but you have funnel builder..." No, I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. I didn't start this business because I wanted to be a CEO of a big huge company. I did it because I love building funnels. I'm an artist, when it comes down to it, this is my art. Matt: Wow. Russell: And that's what I get to do now. And it's amazing. So Dan's got Fridays we book out, and we spend videos, he's got a whole bunch of YouTube videos, we film five or six YouTube vlogs last week, on Friday. So we have that times blocked out to do that, right? I'm writing my next book right now, so I've got my mornings blocked out to write books, because that's when my mind's got not a million things so I can do that. And then, after morning comes in, after I do my wrestling practice, I come in. And that's my teams there, and that's when we're building funnels. I got my designer and my copywriter, the people, and I get to facilitate that. And I feel like the... What's the guy in the orchestra, the maestro? Caleb: Conductor? Russell: Yeah, like I'm the conductor, I'm conducting all these talented people. And everyone's bringing... And I'm alive, and it's exciting. And at night, I can't sleep, because I'm excited again. And so, I think that's the biggest thing, is taking the pressure off yourself if you're not the best leader. That's okay. What are you the actual best at? And success, in business, I think, at least for me, I always thought I had to be the best at everything. And it's the opposite, where it's like, "How do you focus on the thing you're best at? And get the rest of the people around you." Speaker 4: Yeah. And it gets- Matt: And it's... You had to have been willing to let go of your ego, man. Or you wouldn't have been able to grow so much. If you try to do it all yourself... Caleb: So I have a question. How much time do you spend actually thinking about the future? Because it seems like, from what you've told us, you're very dialed in and obsessed on the process, and that's how you've gotten to where you are, up to this point, because you're in love with the game. How much of your time do you spend thinking about the future, and what's on the horizon next year, five years, 10 years? Does that cross your mind? Or what does that look like? Russell: It's interesting, I can't remember who was talking to about this... The further out you look, the fuzzier it gets. You know what I mean? And so, I think for me, it's like we have... I know where I want to go, but the in between is really, really fuzzy, right? It's hard to know. And so, it's like I know... For me, the last big boat was $100 million, the next one's a billion. So we know there's the thing. But it's so far from... I don't know the steps to get there. You know what I mean? And so, for me, it's more like, "Well, here's where we're at." In fact, that was my... We had a chance, last month, to go spend a day with Tony Robbins, and we each had a chance to ask him one question. So that was literally my question, just like... Matt: What was your question? Russell: My question... It'll be a blog soon. Not yet though. No, but it was basically like, "We've gotten to this point, and I know to get to the next goal, the things we've been doing are great and they got us to this point, but I have to think differently to here. I don't know how to think differently. How do you think... It's not another book I'm... Is it a book? How do I think differently?" And what Tony said, that was... it's a very... He said a lot of things, but one of the big things was like, "Proximity is power," like, "You have to be in proximity with people who have already accomplished the thing that you're trying to do." And it was interesting because I look at the path of how I grew ClickFunnels, I did that 100%. I was like, "All right, who are the..." and we found the people, got proximity, and then grew it to this point. So eventually, we kind of coded out of the people who I was aware of. So I asked Tony, I'm like, "Well, where would you go to?" And he's like, "Well, if it was me," he's like, "Who's built the billion dollar company?" He's like, "Marc Benioff." And he started naming all these different billionaires. And this and that, all these things. And I was just like, "I never even assumed those people could... I could be..." it seems so far away. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's..." Having a proximity to those people, and start thinking differently, because I don't know the journey but they've done it. Because someone in our world, and like, "How do [inaudible 00:16:13]?" I'm like, "This is literally a 13 minute project. There you go. [inaudible 00:16:16]." It's like I've done it so many times, it's not hard, right? But for them, it's like this is the rocket science to figure it out. And then the same way with these guys who have built billion dollar companies. So now it's trying to proximity to those people, and trying to get around them, and trying to figure out the journey. So the first thing we did, literally, I got out with Tony, Tony gave the answer to the question, and I knew the first guy I needed to get into proximity with. So I texted Dave, Dave called him up, we brought him on retainer. And now, we've got him an hour a week, to get on the phone with him and just ask him all of our questions. And have him introduce us all the different players at that next level. So a lot of it's that. Dave, who's the CEO, was very focused on all the... He's very much like, "Okay, first, to get to this goal, we have to have everyone here, here, here. These are the percentages, the numbers, all the..." Those things stress me out, I hate spreadsheets. He's always got spreadsheets. But he comes back with all the spreadsheets, I was like, "All I need to know from you is... Because I'm going to be building a funnel. What's the goal? What do you need from me to be able to do that?" He's like, "We need more ClickFunnels trials." Like, "Done. I can... Okay. That's where I'm going to focus my energy." And then, it's like, now I can creative on that piece, because I know this is the metric that I can do, with my skillset, to drive it. And everybody's got a metric, right? The traffic team, everybody's got a metric. But for me personally, it's like the only thing I actually affect in a short term, micro, and then I can focus all the creativity and effort on that, while trying to figure out how to shift my mind set to be bigger, to... Caleb: If Marc Benioff offered you $1 billion for ClickFunnels, what would you say? Speaker 4: Good question. Russell: I'd ask him for five. Matt: Good response! Rob: Can I ask you a question, outside of business? Matt: You asking a question? Oh. Rob: Yeah. Matt: Oh, go ahead. Rob: So I remember you were talking about your wife earlier, with how you wanted to get her the couch. Me and my fiance actually met at ClickFunnels, at your event. Matt: Yeah. Rob: So- Matt: ClickFunnels wedding. Russell: No way. Rob: So what I'm curious about is- Russell: Am I going to be the best man at the wedding? Caleb: I told you, you've got to come, I'm like, "You've got to invite Russell." Rob: So what I wanted to ask you is, obviously you run a nine figure company, and there's a lot that goes into that, how do you balance with, let's say, number one, your wife and then your kids as well? And then, what is your secret to a really successful marriage, that's worked for you? Matt: Dude, what- Rob: I think that's something that many entrepreneurs have good marriages that don't really get asked about. So I was just curious about that. Matt: Yeah. Russell: So I hear three questions in there, right? So balance, happy wife... What was... There was a third one? Caleb: Kids. Rob: Yeah, just balancing it, running a company. I mean, you do all these things, you also have a wife, you have kids. Russell: Yeah. So I would say a couple things. So number one is balance is this thing that we all, for some reason, in our mind, we all seek after. But everything great in my life has come from times of radical imbalance. When I wanted to become a wrestler, I wasn't a great wrestler because I was balanced, it was because I became radically imbalanced in that thing. Matt: Dang. Russell: It became the most important thing in my life, and everything else suffered. But I had to do it to be considered successful. When I met my wife, we didn't create a great relationship because we were balanced, I became radically imbalanced. And all my time and effort and focus was on her. And that's why it became great. ClickFunnels, same way. We built ClickFunnels, I was not balanced. We had to become radically imbalanced for a season, to focus actually to get... So that's the thing to understand. In anything great in life, you can't do it in a point of balance. It's radical imbalance that causes greatness. Matt: And that's golf. Russell: And so, you got to be okay with that. But it can't be for forever. It's got to be something that goes, and it comes and goes. Because people who get radically imbalanced for a long time, they can lose their family, they can lose their kids. Rob: Was there a point where you had to tell your wife, "Hey, this is what I really want to do."? Russell: A lot. She had to- Rob: And she had to just- Russell: ...be on board with- Rob: ...get on board. Russell: She had to get on board, yeah. And if she wasn't, I had to say, "Okay, what's more important?" If it was her, then I had to say no to that. And there's been many opportunities in my life I've had to say no to. Rob: What's that dynamic like, being that guys are together, just as far as working out just normal little things? Russell: So I- Rob: Just decisions, those kind of things. Russell: Yeah, well, marriage, you're going to find out, it's hard. Just so fully aware. No one told me that, going into it. I was like- Matt: Yeah. Russell: I was like, "This is going to be amazing. This is going to be the greatest thing in the world." And it is, it's awesome. But man, it is way harder than I thought. Rob: Just to be a person. Russell: Yeah, someone's... I, actually, I would highly recommend Stacey and Paul Martino have a course that my wife and I have gone through the last year, and it's amazing. There's a principle they teach about demand-relationship. If you just go through their... They have a 14 day quick start, it's like $100. But if you just learn the principles of demand-relationship, what they teach. The biggest game changer in a relationship I ever... Of all the things I've studied... Rob: Why? Russell: It is amazing. Rob: What was your take-away? Russell: The principle of demand-relationship is that, throughout history and society, the way that most of us get things done is that... So in a relationship, there's a power player, and there's someone less, right? And if I want my wife to do something, I'm going to demand, like, "I need you to do these things." Right? And that works, until the other person has the ability to leave. So prior to divorce being a thing, men, throughout history, have had a dominant relationship over women. They used to manage and get what they want, and women couldn't leave. And so, it was a horrible thing, right? But they couldn't leave. As soon as divorce happened, boom, it started happening. Right? When parents come over to their kids and give demand-relationship, as soon as the kids are able to leave, it breaks. And then, breaks his relationships. And so, that's the problem, is that for the last 5000 years, that's been our DNA, that men force women to do these different things. And that's what the demand-relationship is. Their whole training, their whole course, everything they teach is the opposite of demand-relationship. How do you create a relationship, where transformation happens through inspiration, not through demanding, and chasing. And it's tough because, for all of us, especially men, it's been so ingrained in our DNA that if we want something, we... That's how we do business, how we do things. But in a relation, especially an intimate relationship, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen. And that's what we all do. So it'd be worth... I'm hoping she writes a book some day, because it's... In my new book, I have a whole chapter, actually, teaching her framework on in demand-relationship. What's that? Rob: Were you high school sweethearts? Russell: College, we met in college. Rob: So she was with you before you started... Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...and had the huge success- Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...basically. Russell: Yeah. Rob: What was that transition like, from you guys, I guess, being... struggling, and you guys stay together- Matt: Good questions, Rob. Rob: ...to now- Russell: His mindset's on this. Rob: Yeah. Russell: Going into it. Rob: What is that like? I'm just curious, because I mean people don't really talk about this, I guess, a lot. Caleb: Relationship genius. Russell: Yeah. And it's different, because some relationships, both the people are in the business, some aren't. My wife's not involved in the business at all. She... Rob: Oh, okay. Russell: ...doesn't understand it, and she doesn't want to be part of it. And that's okay. It's like sometimes that's been the biggest blessing for me, sometimes it's been hard. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: Right? Sometimes I see the power couples, who are both in the business, and it's really, really cool. But I ask them, and they're like, "Sometimes it's a great blessing, sometimes it's really hard." So there's pro's and con's both ways. But I think the biggest part is just, this has been good for our relationship, and at first we didn't always have this, but it was like... Just figuring out how to get... You both have to have that same end goal, otherwise you're fighting against each other, right? And so, when we were building ClickFunnels and stuff, it was hard at first, because she didn't really... She's like, "What are you guys doing? You spend all this time and..." didn't understand it. And it was tough because I was trying to explain it. And luckily, for me, is that Todd was part of this too, and his wife was kind of struggling. So they had each other to kind of talk through it. But it wasn't until the very first Funnel Hacking Live, where... Because my wife had never been to one of my events before, anything we'd really... She knew what kind of we did, but not really. And she came to Funnel Hacking Live, the very first one. And she didn't come down at first, because she didn't realize what was happening. And she was doing some stuff, and then, she came down with one of her friends and walked in the back of the room, and saw all the stuff. And she started just crying. She was like, "Oh, this is what you're... I had no idea this is what was happening, and what was..." And then, it became real for her. And that was such a huge blessing for me, because now, the next time, it was like, "We have to work hard for this." Or, "We're planning for..." whatever, she was able to see this is the fruits, and like, "Oh, that's why you're doing it." Now, if you notice, my wife's, every Funnel Hacking Live, front row. She doesn't understand a word we're saying, but she's there, she's paying attention, because she's like, "Look at all the people, and their lives are changing, and impacting." And now, it's different, where when I got to do work, work late nights, or whatever, she sees the vision, and she's on board with it. So it makes so much easier. The other secret I learned is if I tell her, if it's like 05:00 at night, I'm like, "Crap, I got to stay late tonight." And I call her at 05:00 at night, nothing good can come from that. It's better if you just go home, right? If I know Wednesday night, I'm going to be working late, I tell her Monday. Like, "Hey, Wednesday night, there's a good chance I'm going to be late." And then, if I tell her that, she's totally cool with it, right? But you don't tell them the day of. It'll destroy your marriage more than anything. Matt: That's good wisdom. Russell: The other secret, this secret don't put on camera, I don't want my wife to... Matt: Is that right? Russell: Yeah, if I have any inclination that people are coming to town, or something's happening, I always like, "Just so you know, next week, Matt and Caleb are coming to town. There's a good shot we might go to dinner at night, just so you're fully aware." And she's like, "Cool." And then, it's fine. The other secret, this is the real one. So don't share this outside this room. Speaker 4: This is the off camera one. Russell: Yeah. So especially after... For my wife and I... So we started having kids, the same time I started this business, right? And so, I'm traveling, I'm going to events. And she's at home with the kids. And so, we never traveled before, so I'm going on these vacations, I'm meeting these cool people, I'm in hotel rooms. So every night, I'm getting back, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I'm like, "Okay, I met so and so, and then..." all these things I'm so excited, so pumped about these things. And I'm telling her about stuff, and she's at home with twin babies, miserable, tired, horrible, feet hurt, body hurt. And I'm out having the time of my life. Matt: Yeah. Russell: And I'm thinking she's going to be pumped for me, right? Matt: Right. Russell: No. And for probably a year or so, I was just like... And then, one day, I remember I'm at some event, and I get cornered by people. And then, introverted Russell's like... anxiety, and it was horrible. And somebody cornered me in the bathroom, and asking me questions while I'm peeing. And it wasn't even... At least, sometimes, most of the time, they fake pee next to you, so at least it's not awkward. He was sitting next to me, watching me pee. I'm like, "Can you at least fake pee?" And so, anyway... It was so bad. And I got home that night, and I call her on the phone, and I was just like, "It was horrible." I went off about how horrible it was, and I was miserable. And she's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." But then, she was cool. It was awesome. And I was like, "I didn't get in trouble." And so, the next time I went out, I got home that night, call her, I was like, "Oh, it was horrible. My feet hurt, my back hurts." Anyway, and I've told so many people this, entrepreneurs and friends, who do that, and they shift... Because they don't want to hear you're having this... Anyway, is this truly good or not? I don't know. It saved my marriage. Matt: Is it true? Russell: Literally saved my marriage, and it saved so many of my friends, who… so many of friends, who had the same thing. They want to hear the stories, but not in the moment. When you come back home later, you tell the stories, they love it. But in the moment, when they're miserable, and you're having fun, it is not... First time with Tony Robbins, when I walked on fire, I call her that night, I'm like, "I just walked on fire. Waaa!" And I hear the kids screaming in the background, and she was angry. And I was like, "Huh." And I'm like, "Cool, I'm sending you to walk on fire next month." I sent her to walk on fire, and then she was on fire. But it was like... Caleb: She's like, "No." Russell: Later, she wants to hear, but not in the moment, because it's just like... Anyway, so- Rob: Yeah. Russell: ...that was- Rob: Makes sense. Russell: ...life changing for... Anyway, so... And then, the other thing is just you have to understand what your values are. I learned this from Tom Bilyeu at a level that was fascinating, recently. But- Caleb: Who was that? Russell: Tom Bilyeu, he runs Impact Theory. Caleb: Oh, okay. Rob: Impact Theory. Caleb: Gotcha. Russell: But he writes out his values, but he prioritizes them. So his number one value is his wife, number two... And he has the values written out. And so, when a conflict comes in place, or he gets asked to speak at a huge event, speak for the Queen of England, or whatever, but it's the same weekend as his wife wants something. He's like, "My wife trumps the value... 100%, she trumps it. So the answer's no, and it's not hard for me to say no." Caleb: Wow. Russell: And so, it's figuring it out for yourself. What are your values? Personally, with your family, the wife, everything like that. And you define them, and then it's like there's no question. That's what hard, is when you value something here, and your spouse values something differently, and the conflict of that is what causes the fights, right? But if you get on the same page, like, "Look, this is number one, two..." You have these things, then it makes it easier to navigate those things, because it's like, "No, I understand this is one of the values we have together, as a couple, you should go do that thing." Or whatever the thing might be. So anyway... Caleb: That's awesome. Russell: But marriage is one of the hardest things, but one of the most rewarding things, at the same time. So it's worth it, but it's a ride. Go through demand-relationship, man. That's- Rob: That's a great point. Russell: ...so good. Speaker 4: I got a question. Rob: Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 4: So two big things that I heard from you, amongst your story, you were talking this positivity. When you were doing great at something, or you learned something, you're so excited about it, you're so positive, but then there's this other part of you that's very vulnerable. Russell: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Speaker 4: And so, you experience anxiety, or you have challenging days, or you're discouraged. How do you find the balance between those, of being vulnerable and being honest with how you're feeling, versus, "Hey, this is a challenge. I'm an entrepreneur, I can overcome this."? Matt: Right. Speaker 4: What's the balance? Russell: Yeah. That's good. One of the... Everyone who's met Tony has a story about how Tony's changed their life. But one of the biggest things that I... There's three or four things that I got from Tony, the very first time I went to his event and I heard him speak, that had a huge impact on me. One of the biggest ones was state control, understanding that. Have you ever heard him talk about the triad and things like that? Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: I'd never heard that before, and I remember watching him do these things on people in the audience. And it was fascinating. He took a lady, who was... He picked somebody in the audience who was suicidal, and he's like... It was the weirdest thing. And he talked about the triad, right? There's three things that change your state, right? There's your language, there's your focus, and there's your physiology, right? So he takes someone, he's like, "I need someone who's suicidal." He takes this beautiful girl. I remember, we were up in Toronto, so then he takes this girl, and he's like, "I need you to get depressed. Not a little bit depressed, clinically suicidal." She's like, "What?" He's like, "Just get there in your mind. Whatever it takes, get dark." And you see her state change, right? And he keeps pushing her, and keep pushing her, and he gets her to this point. And anyway, it's crazy I'm watching this. And I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm watching him do this to this girl, getting her to a point... And soon, she's bawling her eyes out and everything. And he's like, "You got to get deeper. Get darker. More miserable." All this stuff. And you see him change this girl's state. And all of a sudden it stopped. And finally, it seemed like forever, finally he stops and he's like, "Everyone look at her. Watch her. Look at this." He's like, "What do you notice? What's her physiology?" You see her body, you see tears, and all this stuff. And you see her just broken. And then, he's like, "What do you say?" And he goes through the whole triad with her. And he shows that. And he's like, "Now I'm going to show you how quickly you can shift this." To the point where it's like... Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he shifts it, and he starts taking her back through, shifting the physiology, shifting her shoulders, shifting everything, shifting her meanings, shifting focus, shifting what she's saying. And he gets this girl, within three or four minutes, to literal ecstasy, it was crazy watching this. And you see her, where she's laughing... the opposite side of it. And I'd never seen somebody like that, the flip of emotions, how easy it was, by just shifting these three things in her. And it had such a profound impact on me. Caleb: Is there video of that? Russell: Not maybe the one I saw, but he does it at every UPW, he does it... I'm sure there's YouTube videos of it, as well. But if you type the triad, I think he calls it the triad or state control, things like that, you see it happen. But I saw that, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I never realized that we had control over that. I thought my feelings were my feelings." Like, "Here's your feeling." Like, "Okay, crap, this is the feeling I have today." And after experiencing that, I was like, "I could actually change this." I didn't know that. And it's interesting because I think sometimes when we're depressed, or we're sad, or we have these things, I think some of us like it. I've had times before, I don't want to be happy. I'm enjoying feeling miserable. And sometimes, I sit in there because I enjoy, because we do, it's weird. It's messed up. But I felt that. I'm like, "I could change this but I don't want to." But other times, I'm like, "I have to change it." Now that I've learned that. It's crazy you can shift your state, and you can do that and show up the way you need to be. And one practical example of how I use it a lot is, when I get home at the end of the night... And this kind of comes back to your question, I think, earlier, too. How do you do all the things? And I told you this yesterday. One of the things that I got the biggest, from being around Tony Robbins, the most impressive thing about him is when... Tony's got... As busy as any of us are, take that times 10, and that's Tony, right? He's the most busy person ever. But if you have a chance, a brief moment with Tony, where he's going to say a million things, and you have a second with him, he is the most present person I've ever met. The world dissolves around it, and it's just him and you, and there's nothing else. You can tell. And he's just zoned in on you, and it's this magical experience. And as soon as it's done, he's just gone, he's on the next thing. But that moment, he's hyper-present. And so, for me, when I'm doing things, it's like... Like, when I get home at night, at the end of the day, park my car, I walk in, and there's the door before I come into the house. And sometimes, I'm anxious, I'm thinking about work, and thinking about stuff, I'm stressed out, the FBI sent me a letter today, Taylor Swift suing me, whatever the thing is. And I'm like, "Ah." And then, I'm like, "I'm going to walk through that door, and I can't do anything about it now. My kids are there, my wife's there." And it's just like, "Okay, I got to change my state." And right there, before I walk through the door, I change my state. Get in the spot, and then like, "Okay, here we go." And I walk through the door, and it's like then I'm dad. And it's different, right? And so, I think it's learning those things. Because it's not... Your feelings are weird, they're going to show up in one way or the other, but the fact that you can control them, which I didn't understand or know how. But as soon as I realized that, it's just like, "I don't have to be sad, or miserable, or anxious, or whatever. I can actually change those things in a moment, if I understand how." And that was one of the greatest gifts Tony gave me, was just understanding how to do that, and seeing it in practical application with somebody. And now, it's like I can do it myself, any time I need to, if I need to. Matt: How do you act around Tony Robbins? Especially from the beginning to now, because you guys are close now. He probably looks at you like I look at a lot of these guys, that are Caleb's friends. I look at them like nephews, these are like... I'd do anything for them. And I know that... I can see that's how Tony starting to look at you. But take us from the very first time, because he didn't he have you come to an event, ask you a bunch of questions, take notes, and then just leave you hanging, or something like that. Tell the story, real quick. Russell: Oh, man. Tony's so intense. I still get scared to... It's still like, "Ah." Anyway, every time I see him, it's just like... I don't know, it's weird. His presence is- Matt: He still makes you nervous. Russell: Oh, yeah, for sure. But the very first time... So yeah, it was... I don't know, it was probably 04:00 in the morning. I don't even know. The shorter version of the long story is they asked me to come meet him in Toronto, at UPW, same event as this whole experience happened. So I went up there, and supposed to meet him one day, and it shifts to the next day. And if you ever work with Tony, just know if he tells you he's meeting you at 10:00, it could be like four days later you actually meet. You're on Tony time. Yeah, it's- Matt: That's just how it is. Russell: It's crazy, yeah. Just waiting. But it's always worth it, so you just wait and be grateful when it happens. But anyway, so we finally get to the point where we meet, and I have to drive 45 minutes. This is pre-Uber, so I'm in a taxi to some weird hotel. And we get there, and then me and his assistant stand outside for another hour, waiting in the lobby. He kept looking at his phone, nervously, like, "Ah." He's like, "Okay, Mr. Robbins' ready to meet you. Let's go." So we run up the stairs, we go to this thing, we walk in this room, and there's- Matt: And this is the first time you ever- Russell: ...body guards everywhere. First time I ever met him, yeah. Yeah, he's like a giant, comes and gives me a huge hug. And we sit down, and he's like, "You hungry?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he was vegetarian at the time, so he's like, "Get Russell some food." And brought me out this amazing plate of... I don't even know what it was. But it was... I was like, "If I could eat like this is every night, I'd be vegetarian." Because it was amazing. It was- Caleb: It was? Russell: ...insane. And then, got his tape recorder out, he's like, "You okay if we record this?" I'm like, "Yeah." So he clicks record, picks out a big journal, he's like, "You're Mormon, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I love the Mormon people. When I was eight years old, I went to a Mormon church and they told me to keep a journal. I've kept a journal ever since. Do you mind if I take notes while we talk?" Matt: Wow. Russell: I'm like, "Eh, okay." So he's recording, taking notes, and then he drilled me for an hour. Just like do, do, do. Just like- Speaker 4: And how long ago was this? Russell: This is 13, 14 years ago. Speaker 4: Okay. Russell: Anyway, it was intense. And I can't remember what I was saying, I was so scared, I'm second-guessing everything I've said. And then, he's asking me numbers and stats, because we were trying to do this deal with him. And it was so scary. Matt: So he was just drilling you with questions, and just trying to- Russell: Oh, like crazy, yeah. I'm trying to just... Yeah, dude. Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he had to go back to UPW to speak again, so he's like, "You want to drive with me?" So I'm like, "Yeah." So go down, and jump in his Escalade together, we're in the back seat, and we're driving. And it's just crazy. And I remember he asked me a question about this one... I won't say the person's name because the story isn't positive for the person. But he asked, he's like, "What do you think about so and so?" I'm like, "Oh, that person's really cool and really talented." He's like, "He's a very significant..." and he just talked about six human needs, earlier that day, so I was very aware of here's what the needs are, right? And he's like, "Yeah, I don't think I'd ever work with him, because he's very significance driven." And I was like, "Oh, that make sense." And all of a sudden, I was like, "Ah, Tony is reading my soul, right now." I was like, "What drives me? I don't even know what drives me. Does he know what drives me?" Like, "Oh my gosh, am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out, like, "Ah." And all I remember is panicking, thinking, "He knows more about me than I know about me, at this point." And all these things, I'm freaking out, we're driving in his Escalade. And we get to the thing, and he's like, "I got to go inside. Thank you so much, brother. I love you." Jumps out the car, shuts the door. I'm sitting in the Escalade, like, "What just happened?" Matt: It was that fast. Russell: It was insane, yeah. Matt: It was just like- Russell: And then, the driver's like, "Do you want to get out here? Do you want me to drive you somewhere?" Like, "I don't even know where we are." We're in Toronto somewhere, that's all I know. And so, it was just the craziest experience. And then, I don't hear from him for four or five months, nothing. And I'm like- Matt: What were you thinking? Did you think- Russell: I was like, "He must've hated me. Maybe I failed the test. Am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out about all the things. And then, one day, I get this random... It was actually my wife and I, we were celebrating our anniversary, so we were at... It was a StomperNet event, but we took her, it was this cool thing. And she'd just gone to UPW. I sent her like three months later. So she walked on fire, and she was like... And Tony talks about Fiji there, so she was like, "Someday we should go to Fiji." And then, we get this call from Tony, and it was like, "Hey..." Or it was Tony's assistant. Like, "Hey, Tony wants to know if you want to speak at Business Mastery in Fiji, in two weeks." I was like, "Tony Robbins..." I started saying it out loud so Collette could hear me. "Tony Robbins wants me to speak in Fiji, in two weeks?" And Collette, my cute little wife, starts jumping on the bed, like, "Say yes! Say yes!" Caleb: Aw! Russell: And I was like, "Yes, yes, yes. Of course, we will." And then, we're like, we've got three kids that are all toddlers at this time, and like, "Can we bring kids?" They're like, "There's no kids allowed on the resort." I'm like, "We've got three little kids." He's like, "Ah, all right. We'll figure it out." So I hang up, and we're like, "We don't have passports for the kids, we don't have anything." So anyway, it was chaos, we're freaking out. We ended up getting them there, they literally built a fence around our... The Bula house, where's Dan at? The Bula house we were in. They built a whole fence around, so our kids wouldn't die because- Caleb: Did they really? Russell: ...there's cliffs off the back. Yeah, it was crazy. And then, I'm speaking to this room, and there's less than 100 people. I'm speaking, and Tony's sitting in the back of this room, I'm like- Matt: While you're speaking. Russell: ..."I thought he was not going to be here. This is really scary." Yeah. And he's paying attention the whole time. Matt: Does it make you more nervous? Russell: He introduced me, he brought me on stage, which was like... I still have the footage of that, it's really cool. He brought me on stage, which was crazy. And then, I remember, because in the thing we're talking about lead generation, I was talking about squeeze pages. And afterwards, he got on. He comes up afterwards, he's like, "Yeah, I heard squeeze pages don't work anymore. Is that true, Russell?" He's like, "People say they're kind of dead, they don't work anymore." And this is, again, 12 years ago. And I was like, "Who told you that? They totally still work." Which is funny, because we still use them today. But he was just like, "Somebody had told me they don't work anymore." And I was like, "They..." anyway, "They work, I promise." But anyway, and then I don't hear from him for five years, and then something else happens. It's just weird, these long extended periods of time. But then, every time, every moment, I tried... Five years later, it was a call, it was like, "Hey, Tony's doing this thing. He wants your opinion on it." So I spent like two or three hours with his team, consulting, giving feedback, as much ideas as I could. And like, "Cool, thanks." And then, nothing for two years, and then something else, and then... Little things keep happening, and happening, and can do more and more together. And then- Matt: What did you learn from that? You think that's just- Russell: A couple things I've learned. Number one, I'm sure you guys get this a lot, people who want to work with you, they show up and the first thing they show up with is, "All right, I got an idea how we can make a bunch of money together." Right? They always come, and want to figure out how they can take from you. And I was so scared, and grateful, I didn't ever ask Tony for anything. The first time I asked Tony for anything ever was 12 into our relationship, after Expert Secrets book was done. I had just paid him $250,000 to speak on our stage, and just finished the interview promoting his book. And I was like, "Hey, I wrote a new book. Do you want one?" Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's like, "Oh." And he took it. I'm like, "Cool." And then, a week later, I'm like, "Ah, will you interview me on Facebook with this?" He's like, "Sure." And then, he did, and that video got three and a half million views on it. It was crazy, coolest thing ever. But it was 12 years before I asked him for anything. And I had- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...served him at as many different points as I can. I think the biggest lesson from that is that... And I get it all the time, people come to me and it's like they're trying to ask and take. It's just like... I get it, and it makes sense. But it's just like, "This game's not a short game. If you do it right, it's your life. This is your life mission." Right? Matt: Yeah, that's good. Russell: And so it's just understanding you're planting seeds, and you're serving, and if you do that, eventually good things will happen. And something may never happen with Tony, and that's cool. I do stuff for a lot of people, and nothing ever good ever comes from it. But hopefully something does. Sometimes it's indirect, sometimes it's not, sometimes it's just karma, or whatever you believe in. But if you just always go with the intent to serve, not to like, "What's in it for me?" It just changes everything. And then, if you do that, if you lead with how to serve, stuff comes back to you. But if you lead with trying to get stuff, it just doesn't work. The energy's different in the whole encounter. You know what I mean? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: So I'm sure you guys have felt that with people, when they first come to you, and it's just like, "Ah." Matt: So is there a point where you... You went to his house. Russell: That was cool. The thing I can say is it was really cool, because most times when I'm with Tony, you're around people. In Fiji, it was fun seeing him, because he's more personal and stuff like that. But it was really special in his home, because it was him and his wife, and it was cool. It was fun just seeing him as him, like as a kid. And even my wife, like, "He seems like a kid here." He was so excited, and showing us his stuff, and all the things. Matt: Ah, well, guys, listen. Russell: Anyway- Matt: A few more questions, because I mean, man, you've been at it for almost two hours, dude. I can go all night, and I know he could. But Brea Morrison, give it up for her for letting us be here. Thank you so much.

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part two of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Seekers Podcast. So I have got to ask you, what did you think about episode number one of the World Changers Roundtable? Hopefully, you loved it. There were so many things covered in that 42 minutes. Anyway, we are moving on to the next part of this interview. As you know, this is going to be broken down into four parts because they kept me there, handcuffed to a table, until 3:00 AM. I'm just joking. They didn't really. But, the question was so intriguing, we were having so much fun, we just kept going and going until finally I was like, "I have to fly out in three hours. I need to get back to my hotel." But now we're going to go dive into the second part. This next episode is probably another 30 to 40, 45 minutes or so as well. So these are some things we'll be covering in this one, which is really fun. We talk about, number one, why my business partner, Todd Dickerson, is so amazing, and hopefully give you ideas about if you're pursuing opportunities and trying to land your dream job or partnership or whatever. Number two, we talked about personality profiling, how we actually are hiring here at ClickFunnels. We talked about where my love for learning came from. We talked about transition for me, going from an athlete to a business person and a marketer. We talked about some of the lessons I learned from Lindsey Stirling, things I was not expecting to hear from her that totally changed everything for me. We talked about people who intrigue me, my interest in health and bio hacking. We talked about is there anything that happens inside of this business that gets me as excited as what I felt in wrestling. We talked about what thing is close, but nothing actually has ever hit it. We talked about the first Two Comma Club Awards. We talked about how to upgrade your identity as you grow. We talked about the fact that you have to cycle and fail and rebuild in your businesses. We talked about the launch of ClickFunnels and how it wasn't just the fact that I was a genius, because I wasn't. There are so many things. Talking about the grace of God and how it tied into the launch of ClickFunnels. We talked about some of my early products, like Zip Brander and Forum Fortunes. We talked about my Christmas Grinch sale, which was the very first big sale, big launch I ever did, to my little tiny list that made enough money to cover Christmas for my wife and I when we were first getting started. We talked about becoming worthy. We talked about list building, how it's better than buying ads, and a whole bunch of other things. It's amazing, this could be 40 courses all wrapped into one super podcast episode. So if you liked the last episode, I think you're going to love this one as well. And I've got two more after this, coming back, going deeper into this conversation with the Roundtable of World Changers. So, that said, we're going to cue the theme song. When we come back, we'll dive right into the second section here of the interview. Matt Maddix: Dave and Todd, I mean, just wow. Those dudes are like... But what about those guys? Russell: So here's Todd's story. So the real long story short, I bought some software, it was coding Ruby on Rails, didn't know that. Bought this company with the last... I didn't have the money. So I borrowed money, bought this company, coded on some platform we didn't know, and I was like, "Screw it," right? And I tried to hire people to fix it, nobody could fix this platform until finally I was leaving the office one day. I literally emailed the people saying, "Turn off the servers." We lost all of our money to this company. They shut it down. And I'm walking out of the office and I had this impression of like, "There could be someone on your email list who knows Ruby on Rails." I was like, "That's weird. I had a bunch of internet marketing nerds. There's no one that's like, 'Ruby on Rails...'" Anyway. It was starting with the impression from God, I stopped, turned back around, set the computer to open back up, sent an email to my list. "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner. I bought a software company and it's not working. Please send me a message." Send. Matt: And that's all you said? Russell: Yeah. And lo and behold, three years earlier, Todd bought some random thing from me, happened to be on my email list. He built the website three or four years earlier that was making six figures a year on autopilot. Hadn't worked in four years. Just hanging out relaxing with his wife and his daughter. And an email comes in and it says, "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner." He's like, "I know Ruby on Rails. I can be Russell's partner." Emails me back. And at first I see him and his beautiful wife and I'm like, "There's no way he's a programmer. There's no way." That was literally my thought. But he was the only person that responded back so I was like, "Okay, well, here's the login to the site. Fix it. I don't know what to do. I'm not a coder." I went to bed, woke up the next morning. He's like, "Cool, I fixed the site. Plus I found this, this, and this. And I changed this. And I moved these things,", and all of this stuff. He's like, "It's working now. Do you have anything else you want to do together?" I'm like, "Huh." And so I give him another project, another project. And for an entire year Todd and I worked together, and never once did he ever ask me for money, ever. Matt: Wow. Russell: Not a penny. And I remember he started finding Boise to work on a project together ... Matt: You're telling me he worked for you for an entire year? Russell: For free. More than a year. Caleb Maddix: Why was that? Russell: I don't know. I found out later. He'd gone to Robert Kiyosaki at this event and he said, "Find someone who's doing what you want to do and work for them for free." So he told me that years later. I didn't know that. Matt: Todd, if you're watching dude. I love you man. You're legit. Russell: And so he kept coming and he started coming to Boise and we started becoming friends. The smartest developer I've ever met. Literally the smartest person I've ever met. I'll go that far. Just genius. And he'd come out to Boise and we'd work on projects and ideas. We tried to launch a couple of things. None of them really worked. And we were just trying stuff. He was just always there, always serving, always doing stuff. And one day were in Boise and I was looking over his shoulder cause we're looking at stuff and I saw his email. And there's all these emails from some recruiting site or something. I was like, "What's that?" He's like, "Oh, it's people recruiting me for a Ruby job." And I was like, "Do you get a lot of those?" And he's like, "I get three or for a day." I'm like, "Really? Are they good offers?" He's like, "I don't know. Let's check it out." He opened it up and the first one was like $400,000 a year starting salary. I'm like, "What?" The next one is $350,000. The next was 5 ... Insane things. I'm like, "Why don't you do that?" He's like, "I don't want to work for them. I want to be your partner man." I'm like, "What?" And then I all of a sudden had this realization that I hadn't paid him in a year. We didn't have much money at the time, we're still at the backside of a business failure when we met. I'm like, "I can pay you maybe $50,000 a year. Can I pay you that?" He's like, "Whatever." So I told our little bookkeeper, "Pay Todd $50,000 a year." And they're like, "Okay." So he did that and next year we're paying $50,000 a year. We're doing stuff and we have more things. Started to get a little success here and there. Making more money. Back in Boise again. And I'm like, "Can I pay you some more?" And he's like, "Whatever." Matt: So he wasn't ever just asking? Russell: Never in his life has he asked me for money. Ever. So we bumped it up to $100,000 a year because that's what we got, the year before that, after a year or two working together. And then, it was crazy, the day Leadpages got the first round of funding for $5,000,000, the same day Todd was flying to Boise. And he gets the email. It's east coast so he's two hours ahead. He's awake and on the plane, he sees the email, forwards it to me, and then jumps in the plane. He's flying for four hours. I wake up. I see the email and I was like, "Leadpages? Got 5 ..." I was like, we built landing page software in the past. I was perplexed and angry. And then Todd lands. And Todd, he's a little guy, he comes into the office all angry. He's like, "Leadpages got 5 million!" He's like, "I can build Leadpages tonight. Do you want to build lead pages?" I'm like, "Yeah. Let's compete with Leadpages." He's like, "All right." Matt: No way. Dude. I love this. Russell: This is like angry Todd. I love angry Todd. I like all Todds, but angry Todd is the best Todd. Matt: Is it? Okay. Russell: He's just pissed because he's like, "I can build this tonight. Everything thing they got we can have done tonight." So we're getting all ready. What should we call it and everything. And then he's like, "Wait, we're building this. You want to add anything else to it?" And I was like, "Oh. Yeah. What if it did this? And what if it did this?" And we spent a week in front of a white board saying, "What if it did?", and we mapped out ClickFunnels. Matt: So you're talking about a week where you guys just locked in and you were just having fun. Just doodling and whatever. Russell: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I can do that. We can do that." We're brainstorming all sorts of stuff so we map the whole thing out. Matt: Did you know at that moment you were onto something big? At that moment right there, when you guys were like ... Or was it just still like ... Russell: All lot of people have tried something like that. I tried before other people tried. No one had done it. So I was kind of skeptical but Todd's like, "I can do this. This is easy." I'm like, "Okay because I tried it ..." He's like, "No dude, I can do it. This is easy." So I was, excuse me, optimistically hopeful because he's a genius but I was also nervous. But anyways, we map it out and then we bought Clickpros.com. I wanted to call it ClickFusion because I own ClickFusion, but we'd had three failed businesses called ClickFusion. All of them failed and Todd was like, "No. It's bad karma. We can't." I'm like, "But the logo is so cool dude." Matt: I love it. You love the logo. Russell: And he's like, "No, we can't." He's like, "It's got a jinx on it or something. We can't do that. You have to come up with a different name." I was like, "But ClickFusion is the coolest name ever." So we're trying things. Click everything and then ClickFunnels. We're like, "Ah." That was the thing. We're so excited Matt: Who first said it? Do you remember? The words ClickFunnels. Caleb: It's almost like God saying, "Let there be light." Russell: I would assume it was me but I'm not positive. I'll have to ask Todd on that one. Caleb: Well, when you said it, was it instant? Like fire? Russell: It was insane, it was available. Matt: Oh, you know that feeling, right? Checking domains. You're like… chills. Russell: How has no one thought of this before? And so we got it and I remember I was driving him to the airport at the end of the week to take him back home. And we got to the airport. Boise airport, It's a small airport. So we pull up to the thing to get out and you can tell he's probably nervous waiting. And before we get out of the car he's like, "I really want to do this man. I'm excited." I'm like, "Me too. Me too." He's like, "I don't want to do this like your employee though. I want to do it as your partner." And in that moment, I was just like all the fear of ... I'd tried partners in the past. It hadn't worked. All this stuff and all the everything. And it was just this weird thing of just all the emotions were hitting me as he sat in the car, about to get out the car. I have 15, 20 seconds before he's going to to go. I was just thinking about him. I was like, he's never asked me for money. He's never done anything. He's served. He's given everything. I was just looking at him. I was like, "All right let's do it." He's like, "Cool." And he got out of the car and he's gone. Matt: Wait a minute. So at that moment? Is was that quick? Russell: That was it. Matt: It was a gut feeling that you just knew. That he was ... Russell: It was him. Yeah. And I was literally... I said this on stage at Funnel hacking live, outside of marrying my wife, it was the greatest decision I ever made. Matt: Yeah. I remember you saying that with tears. Russell: Yeah. Matt: Why though? I'm curious because it's not just ClickFunnels. Russell: He's amazing. If you look at our personality profiles, it's fascinating. We have the same personality profiles. The Myers-Briggs. Except for one letter's different. Where I'm a feeler he's a thinker. And it's been magical as a partnership because we both have so much respect for each other that we don't try to fight each other. And it's very much like if I wanted to do something, I'm like, "This is what I want to do. This what I'm feeling. What do you think?" And he'll come back and be like, "Well, I think this." And so I come up from feeling instead of thinking and it's really cool. So sometimes his thinking will trump my feeling. And I'm like, "You're actually right. Let's not do that." Or vice versa. Where he's like, "I'm thinking this." And I'm like, "I don't know why but I feel this." And he'll be like, "Okay." He respects that. We just have such mutual respect that we've never been in a fight. We've never argued. We've never had problems. It's been amazing. Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's similar to like we talk about with Dan. He went back home after us white boarding that, sat in his basement for five or six months and built ClickFunnels by himself. Caleb: Really just by himself? Russell: 100% by himself. Caleb: No other team. No other dev? Russell: It was just him. And the right before we launched, we brought in another partner, Dylan, who built the front-end editor and did a lot of the UI. And so then it was those two as we got closer and closer to the launch. And then for the next year it was just those two that did everything. And then after a year, we started bringing in other developers. But it was 100% Todd. Matt: Wow. Russell: He's amazing. In all aspects. You know you have friends you think they know everything about everything. That's like Todd except he actually knows everything about everything. You ask him anything and he's just like ... I don't know how he does it. And I'll always fact check him, like, "Oh my gosh. He's right again." He's brilliant. It's amazing. Matt: So for those of us who have partners or are maybe going into partnership, what's your best advice? And what do you feel like he does right that other partners don't do? Russell: I think the hardest thing with partners is typically we want to partner with someone who is just like us. We did a podcast most recently. Dean, Tony and I, right? We've done two partnerships. Both partnerships made it through the launch and they stopped. Made it through the launch and stopped. The podcast was like, "Why?" I love Dean. I love Tony. They're amazing. The problem is that me and Dean had the exact same skill set. Matt: Oh. Russell: And so the problem is that both of us are right. We both understand it right, but we do it differently. And so it's like You have two people, and so typically you want to partner with those people who are like you. You're like, "Oh, we think the same. We should be partners." But that's not necessarily the right thing because then you've got two alphas with the same skillset, and someone has to win and someone has to lose. And it's hard. Whereas me and Todd, we have different skill sets. There is never a winner or a loser. We can both win because different skill sets, both the same mission. It's really easy. So I think the biggest thing is you're trying to find the yin yang. You're not trying to find someone who thinks like you or acts like you. In fact, this is true in most hiring processes as well. I used to have people like, "Send me a video if you want this job." Right? So I get these videos, and the people that I wanted to hire were the people like me. I'm like, "This person's awesome. They think like me. They're a genius. They're amazing." You'll hire them, and within a week I'm like, "I hate this person." It's horrible. So we started shifting the way we do our hiring based on personality profiling instead. DISC profile drives most of my own personal hiring so I know that I'm a high D, high I, high S. No C at all. Right? And so the people I need to hire around me are high S, high C. The problem is the people I who I watched their videos and I'm pumped, they're high D, high I. So I'm like, "Yeah. These people are awesome. They're charismatic. I'm going to love them. They're drivers, they're awesome. Worst employees ever. Matt: Right. Russell: Right? So when people send us this profile, first I find the right profile and then from there I do interviews. Because if I interview ahead of time I get sold by the people who sell and then they're horrible employees. And so I make sure they're high S high C, because I know that if I talk to high S high C, I'm going to be kind of bummed out. Like, "Oh, I don't know if this is the kind of person that I'm going to jive with." But they're the best people to surround myself with because I'm such a high D high S. I'm a creator. I'm throwing things up in the air and I need people who are S and C, who are faithful finishers, who are going to take the things, capture them, and make sure that it's amazing. Matt: Do you feel like businesses and entrepreneurs are making a mistake by not having their employees and their team take these tests? Russell: 100%. I have a new company we're launching all about personality profiling because I'm such a big believer in it. Matt: Really? Tell me why. Top three reasons. Russell: It's in all things in life. If you're going to be a partner. If you're going to date someone. Understanding who they are is such a big part of it. Right? Because we think everyone sees the world the same way we see it and it is not true at all. The way you see it, the way we all see is so different and so if we don't understand that at a deep level, then I get upset by what you do and at what everyone's doing because it's like, "Don't you see what I see?" And the reality is no they don't. So if you start understanding people better ... In fact, the software can be called Understand About Me. It's a place you go and you take all the personality profiling and it gives you a page that can show somebody this is me. So in five seconds I can understand you perfectly they're like, "Oh, now I know how to work with you." Because I understand what you are, what your beliefs are, what your values, all the things I need to know about you, I can find it really quickly. Where normally you're going to go years with somebody before you understand them. I can look at a thing and get pretty dang close in a minute. Matt: Wow. Russell: Now I know hot interact with you and spend time with you and work with you. Things like that. Caleb: Question. Where does your love to learn come from? Because one of the things I noticed from being around you, it's always like yeah, so I had this moment where I geeked on this and I geeked out on this. It was health and suppliments, and marketing and personality types. There's all these different things you geek out on. Have you always been that way? Is it like you geek out on marketing, you saw the rewards from it, and you're like, "Wow, what if this goes into other areas?" Where does that come from? Russell: Yeah, I didn't always have my life. In fact, I had a fascinating conversation with Tom Bilyeu about this, because when I was growing up in high school I always thought I was a dumb kid. I thought I was an athlete, so I focused there. I thought I was an athlete, so I was a wrestler, that was my identity, that was where I focused at. I thought I was dumb. Because of that, straight C student high school and college, my cumulative GPA graduating from college was 2.3. Straight C's and one B maybe somewhere in there, right? Because I was a dumb kid. When I got done I ended my wrestling career, so I stopped being an athlete, and I was like, "Oh crap." I started to learn this business stuff and I don't like to read. I'm a dumb kid. What do I do? It was fascinating. Tom told me, because I had this epiphany, I'm not actually dumb. He's like, "Actually, the reality is you probably really were dumb. But then you changed, right?" So for me it was like I shifted. It was fascinating. Do you remember the Funnel Hacking Live where we had Lindsay Stirling perform? One of my favorite parts of that, she did a whole performance. If you guys don't know, Lindsay does violin dancing stuff, and afterwards I had a Q and A with her afterwards. I had this question I was so pumped to ask. I was waiting for her just to like, the question is, she was on America's Got Talent, and I think she took 7th place. When she got kicked off, Pierce Bronson or whatever said, "You've got no talent. You're no good." Whatever, right? So I was like, do you remember that time when he said that? What I thought she was going to say was, "Yeah, I proved him wrong. Yeah." I was like, "What did you feel after that?" She's like, "Yeah, I got home and I realized he was right. I wasn't very good. So I went back and I started practicing and I started working harder and eventually I became good enough." It was like, oh my gosh. I got chills when I was saying it again. Matt: Yeah. Russell: I remember when Tom said it to me, he was like, "You probably were dumb." I was like, "I was." Because I wasn't reading things. So with marketing that was the first thing for some reason that caught my attention, that got me excited, right? And then if you look at my DISC profile, ROI is my highest value. I have to see ROI in something or I don't want to do it. So when I saw an ROI on this reading, I was like, "Oh my gosh. I read a book, I got one little sentence, changed a color, made more money. Oh my gosh." That is where it started, 100%. I started learning that and I started getting obsessed with those things. As this business grew for me I started being more, I always joke that crazy people got attracted to me, right? The best health people, the best fitness people, the best in every market kind of came into our world somehow. So I started getting to meet all these people. When you're around someone who's the best in the world at the thing, and they start talking about the thing, you can't help but be like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." Right? You zone in on that. So whenever I meet someone that's amazing and I have a chance to talk to them like this I just geek out. Like when I met your dad the first time with you guys. That's when I bought your parenting course and everything. I was just like, I saw you and I saw him and I was like, "I want that." So I started going down that rabbit hole, right? I met Anthony DiClementi, I was like, "I love this guy. I have respect for him, I love him." Every time he talks about anything, he fascinates me, when he talks about something it fascinates me. I have to look down those things, right? When people fascinate me, the things that fascinate them start fascinating me and that's when I kind of go down those rabbit holes. This person is so intriguing and fascinating. What makes them that way? What are they doing. It's interesting. I'm not a good question asker. You guys are so good at question askers. I've never been good at asking questions, but I'm really good at watching what people do and then seeing it and trying to go down the rabbit hole. What are they doing, why are they doing it, that kind of thing. Caleb: He's a true master in it. You can just tell. What are some things you want to take the time to geek out on? I'm sure you see something and you're like I want to get on that but it's not a priority, I've got to do this. What are some things, if I had a week or two? Russell: Just free time with nothing else involved? Caleb: What's the next thing you're going to geek out on? Russell: Oh. I would say every probably three years I get re-excited about SEO, for some reason. I start going down that path again, because I love it. There's times in my business when that was the focused. It's not now at all, but I went through a couple ... Brian Dean's a real cool SEO guy, couple guys… I started dabbing my toe in again and I'm like, I just want to get back into it so bad. Right now SEO is actually our number 11 lead source as of today in ClickFunnels, which is amazing. So we handed SEO the first four or five years, now we're focused on it again. It's doing really well for us. I want to go deep there because I like that. Anyway, I haven't had a chance to do that. Any of the health stuff really, really fascinates me. Matt: Why? I'm curious. Why are you drawn to that so much? The health stuff. Russell: Because I've seen with myself ... My history is I got in wrestling, at the PAC 10 tournament was my last actual wrestling match. My wife was giving herself fertility shots in the stomach during PAC 10 so the next month se was pregnant. So I got done wrestling, got done competing, got done running, got done lifting. All my athletic career ended, and then my wife got pregnant. She's eating for three kids, and I'm pumped because I don't have to work out right now, she's hungry, I'm hungry, we're eating. We just kept eating and eating. So over the next seven to eight months my wife gained like 60 pounds, I gained like 60 pounds. We were doing it together so who cared, it was amazing. Then one day she has two babies and she loses like 45 pounds and I'm like, oh crap. I'm stuck here. Where did you go? This for me? Matt: Yeah. Russell: Thank you. Then at that time the business was starting and I was stressed out trying to figure it out and I didn't get healthy again. I just was in that state of being 65 pounds heavier for years. But I didn't know the difference, I didn't know that I felt differently, because I'd never been in a spot where I spent eight hours sitting behind a computer, so I didn't know what good felt like or bad felt like. I knew if I tried to wrestle I'd puke, so I was like I don't feel like I'm an athlete. I just felt normal, I thought. Eight years in I was like, I don't know, I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, "Oh, what happened to you?" You know what I mean? I'm sure hopefully everybody's had a chance. I was like, huh. It was hard because in my head I knew how to work out, I knew how to train, I knew these things. Finally I was like, "I need to get a trainer." So I got a trainer for the first time. I'd never really done that before. Started going, and got me from I don't even know, 27, 28% body fat down to 12% in a matter of seven or eight months. I looked better, I felt better, but what's crazy is I could work twice as hard and twice as long. I wasn't tired. I was like, "I can keep going. My brain's on fire. This is amazing." Matt: Wow. Just from the ... Russell: I had no idea until I lost all the weight. All of a sudden it was just like, I can do so much more. I think, when I first met Anthony DiClementi the first time I was like, this is my problem right now. I am at work all day slaying dragons, doing all these things, I have this energy. I get home at night and my two little twin boys are there, and my little daughter, and I'm spent and I have no energy. How do I still be a present dad and how do I have these things? The next tier was the bio hacking stuff. How do you do these things? How do you increase energy? There's so many ways to do that, from light therapy to supplements to sleeping to sound to breath, all these crazy things that seem stupid. The first time Anthony's like, "We're going to do breath work." I'm like, "We're going to breathe? That's your bio hack? We're going to breathe together?" He's like, "Yeah, it's going to be amazing." I'm like super annoyed. What's the ROI on this, I've got to get back to work. So he sat me down in our gym. You've been in our wrestling room. He sat me down and he's like, "You have to sit because if you're standing you'll hit your head and you'll die." I'm like, what are you talking about? He sits me down and we do these breathing exercises where he's yelling at us and screaming. All this stuff is happening. If anyone's ever done deep breath work it's nuts. We're doing this thing where we're supposed to do this heavy, heavy breath work until he's like, what's going to happen is the world is going to ... Has anybody done jiu-jitsu here? Been tapped out before? Matt: Yeah. Russell: So you get choked out. What will happen, the carotid artery gets choked and the world starts shrinking like this. If you take pressure off it, it comes back to life. If you don't, it goes darker and darker until it disappears and you're gone, right? If you've never been choked out, that's what happens. It's a really fun experience. But you have the minute when you see it shrinking around you and then it's gone, right? He told me that's what's going to happen. You're going to breathe so much that the world around you is going to start shrinking. If you don't stop you're going to pass out. So we go all the way to where it starts shrinking, stops, and then when you hit that point you let me know and then you hold your breath for as long as you can. He's like, "How long can you hold your breath for?" I'm like, "Maybe a minute." He's like, "You'll do it for at least five." I was like, there's no way. So he says sit down, we're doing this breath thing, we're going like crazy and sure enough the walls start doing weird stuff. I feel like I'm on drugs. I'm sweating like crazy. We keep doing it. He's yelling at me. All of a sudden the world starts closing around me, I'm like, "What is happening?" And then he stops and is like, "Hold your breath." He starts the clock. I'm sitting here holding my breath forever, looking around. We had three or four of us guys all doing it at the same time. I'm freaking out. And then it starts getting quieter, things are slowing down, we're sitting there and then he's like let some of the pressure out but don't breathe in. Let pressure out, pressure out, pressure out, keep doing that, and it gets done and the stop clock is over five minutes. I'm just like, I just held my breath for five minutes. Matt: And you didn't even know it. Russell: Insane. And then the rest of the day we were on fire. It was just like, whoa. Right? We brought a cryo-sauna at our house and we go freeze in the cryo-sauna and the rest of the day you just feel ... That's the thing I love now, these little weird things. Light therapy, breathing, weird things that just seem stupid. You do it and you can go longer, you can think better, you can do stuff. All those things just get me so excited. Anthony's fun because he randomly will just ship me weird stuff in the mail. Just the weirdest things. It makes my wife so mad. It just shows up. There's a big old box. She's like, what's this from? I'm like, I'm hoping it's from Anthony, it's going to be amazing. Just weird things. Tons of stuff. I love that kind of stuff because the ROI on it is crazy. They're always these weird things. I have this headband someone sent me. You put this headband on, you put an app on and you start working and it just makes you not tired, makes you focused. These weird things. How does this work? I don't know. And they're like oh, it works because the waves over here sync your brain and change your brain waves and the creative state and all these things. I mean, I don't know how it works but I just wrote two chapters. Caleb: Do you do breath work every day? Russell: No, because it's so intense. If I had a coach who could walk me through it. I have a recording of Anthony doing it and I almost dread it because I know how hard it is. By the time you're done you're sweating. Caleb: I've got to get that recording. Russell: I'll get it to you. By the time you're sweating, you're like what just happened? I just breathed for five minutes. It's weird. Anyway, I would love to understand it on a deeper level but I don't understand a lot of the things now. Some of them I've gone deep on, but a lot of them I do without knowing why. I hate it because my wife will be like, "What's this do?" And I'm like, I don't know. Matt: Just love it. Russell: One of my buddies, Preston Eli, he wrote this blog post, he called it the Warriornaire Workout. In there he explains part of his morning workout. He's like, why do I do it? He's like, because Tony Robins does, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence. That quote goes to my head all the time. People ask me, why do you do that? I'm like, because I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence, that's it. I'm like, I don't know the reason why, Tony says so, therefore I will do it. I would like to understand it at a deeper level so I have a better response than I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. But that's a pretty good reason. Anyway. Matt: Real quick, does anybody else want to throw in a question for Russell? Anybody else here live with us? Caleb: Let me ask one more real fast. Because I want to. I want to ask this. We were just having sushi, I was asking you, what are some of the favorite periods of your life? One of them you said was wrestling, which I found funny because by far one of my favorite periods is baseball, which people wouldn't expect because obviously I've been on stage and all this other stuff and that should take the cake. But those moments when you're just on the field, you're in the zone, there's nothing better. Where, with what you get to do now, whether it's being live on a webinar or being on stage or whatever it is, where do you get the same feeling of wrestling? Do you know what I mean? You know, the feeling in your chest? Russell: Today while we were in line at the grocery store I talked to your dad about this. I said that the best feelings I ever had in my life were from wrestling. The feeling of winning a hard match that I wasn't supposed to win and getting your hand raised, I never felt something like that, that felt as good as that, ever. I've been searching in business to find that, and I've never found it. Speaker 3: Do you feel like sports is like business in any sense? Matt: Good question. Russell: For sure, yeah. There's a lot, for sure. What I was going to say is the closest I've ever gotten to feeling that is when you serve at an event and you see a table rush and you see not only people where they get the a-ha, but enough of an a-ha where it gets them to get up and to move. That's the closest I've ever felt to that. It's not as good, but it's the closest I've ever felt to that. Which is why I love doing the big things. I get a glimpse of that. Caleb: How close? Scale of one to 10. Wrestling's a 10. Where does that rank? Russell: If wrestling's a 10, I'd say it's about an eight. In fact it's interesting because when I first started in business I was racing for that, trying to find it, trying to find it, trying to find it. It took me years before I was like ... Matt: Is it disappointing? Russell: For sure, yeah. We launch today and make a million dollars and it's like, huh. That sucked. What else have we got. Give me something else. Matt: Exactly. Russell: The money goal is always what I thought was going to be the thing, and those always were just like, huh. In fact, literally one of the main reasons I did the Two Comma Club Awards, for me I need, maybe it's just from a decade of my life someone grabbing my hand and raising it. I was like, entrepreneurs need that. No one raises our hands. Two Comma Club Awards, for me, is me lifting their hands like you did it. I needed that, they need that. That's one of the main reasons I did that, because that's the equivalent of that. Anyway. Matt: How many millionaires have you created? Russell: This year we passed 1,000 people that won the two comma club award. We're over 120. Matt: How does it feel to say that? To say it? You know how sometimes it's like so many people that have passion or goals or huge dreams and visions, rarely do they really celebrate what's happening on the journey. Do you find yourself ever getting where your vision is so big and your passion is so deep that even saying things like there's 1,000 millionaires. Dude, that's huge. Man, 1,000 people that are millionaires because of you. Russell: I think the first time I really got that, probably the most impactful time, was the very first Funnel Hacking live that we gave away Two Comma Club Awards. It was the third Funnel Hacking live. It was a couple of months before that we had the idea of a Two Comma Club and an award, talking about that. I legitimately didn't know. I wonder if anyone in ClickFunnels has actually made a million dollars. I don't even know. So Dave went back and the database guys went through everything and I remember he came back and was like, there's 79 people right now that made a million dollars. I was just like, are you serious? Matt: Was it a boost of confidence? What did it do for you? Russell: It was one of those things, looking back on me doing these events where two people showed up and nobody showed up, hardly anybody, where I was so excited about this? I was like, how come nobody cares? To now it was like, this is actually, I've talked about this long enough people are believing it and now they're doing it. You start seeing it, and there's the fruits of it. In my mind I was like a million bucks, even then, ClickFunnel was new, I was like a million dollars is hard. Most of my friends I knew were like made somewhere near a million dollars. There were people who have been in this business for a long time. A million bucks is a big deal. That was most people's goal still. The fact that 79 people had done it, that was just weird to me. I think that was the biggest one, the realization that just like, oh my gosh. It's not just a theory and I think it works, it's working. It's working at a scale that was unfathomable to me at the time. 79 people. To go to 200 and then 500 and then 1,000 is crazy. Matt: What was your question, buddy? Speaker 4: You're talking about how at each level of success you hit, some of your mentors hit that ceiling, right? Because of the posturing, right? So ultimately I feel like when you get to a new level of success it requires you to upgrade your identity, your self image. What have you found is the number one routine, what's your process for upgrading the identity, upgrading your self image? Because I think that's so important because it can either hold you back and have you self sabotage and not take action and go after what you want, or it's going to be the thing that keeps you at that level and continues to propel you forward. What's kept you ... Russell: That's good. It's weaved through everything, right? The one that's the most obvious external, especially in our world, because you see marketers, most people when they first start selling whatever it is they're selling they're bragging about themselves. Here's my ad, here's my name. It's all about them, that's the first tier of it. And then the second tier, when they start having the realization, I feel like is when they stop talking about themselves and start talking about the people they've helped. Speaker 4: Mm. Russell: You see externally. You don't hear me talking about how much money I make. I'm not like, oh, check out what I got. I talk about all the other people. It's like, that's next year, is that. And then for me the third tier now, which has been really cool, is talking about Lady Boss, right? The success story isn't Kailin, it's Kailin's customers, right? So it's like that next tier. What you're talking about is like the external version of that. There's a lot of internal things that you've got to deal with, but you'll notice it shifting in people when you look at just their messaging and what they're saying. From the way they podcast, they video, they market, their ads and everything, it's the shift of it's not about me, it's about them. It's not even about them, that's the external version of it. Internally I think it's really, it's what we talked about, I can't remember why, but we brought up yesterday or today I had this really successful guy I met one time who the first time we met he was like tell me your story. So I was telling him the wrestle posturing story about how great I was. He was like, no. Tell me about the time you failed. So I was like, well, I'm in the middle of one right now. So I told him let me tell you. I told this whole thing. I remember afterwards I was so embarrassed. He's going to think I'm an idiot. You know, that fear? He was like, good, you cycled. I was like, what? He was like, I will not work with entrepreneurs who haven't cycled at least once. Because if they haven't then they still believe their own bio, right? I think that's the biggest thing, the internal version is that. The first time around, before you cycle, you think it's all you. I know for me it was. I remember doing this the first time, I'm like, I am a genius. I'm the smartest guy in the world. And then when it collapsed I was like, oh, there's a lot of things outside my control. This is not me. There is a team, there's God, there's all these other things that are making this possible. There's a scripture, I can't remember where it's at, it's the Bible, Book of Mormon, but it says you can either be humble or God will humble ... Ah, I'm misquoting it by far. But it's like God will humble people. You can be humble or he will humble you. So it's like, looking at that, I'm like round two I'm going to be a humble person because I don't want to be humbled again, right? Matt: I still feel it. Russell: This is not me. I understand, I look around now and it's 100% like there's no way I would be where I am right now if Dan Usher didn't make videos the way he does. There's no way I'd be here right now if Todd Dickerson could not code software the way he does. There's no way, all these things are so many people. Matt: You're so right. Russell: Then there's so many success stories that inside of it there's just so many people. And then there's the grace of God. I just look at the timeline of when ClickFunnels came into the market. I've now got funnels for a decade, nobody cared. Then all these things were happening, we started having the idea for ClickFunnels, started building it, we're creating it, and then literally we go to traffic and conversion, Todd's halfway done building ClickFunnels, and Ryan Deiss stands on stage in the biggest event at the time and he spends the entire four days talking about funnels. Talking about how funnels are the greatest thing. Everybody's like, what's a funnel? They're all taking notes. Me and Todd are like, does he know we're building? He's talking about funnels. He's talking about funnels like crazy. And then the next day everyone gets home from traffic and conversion and everybody that day, the next day 8,000 funnel consultants pop up. Everybody's a funnel consultant. Everyone is on Facebook talking about funnel consultants and teaching funnels and all this stuff. We're like, oh my gosh. Todd, get this software done, everybody's talking about funnels right now. So he's coding like crazy, all this stuff is coming around, all of a sudden everyone's like, millions of funnel consultants, everyone's doing it, and all of a sudden we're like, hey, we created this thing called ClickFunnels, here it is. All of a sudden all of the consultants and all the people and everyone came and we were the only platform. I look at that, as smart as I think I am, there is so much grace and timing. If I'd launched a year earlier, a year later, it would not have hit the way it did. 100% it was the timing of all these things that have to happen. If it wasn't for that ... I can act like I'm smart, I'm a genius, but man, there's so much divinity that came into all the things. There's no way it could happen without that. Anyway, just understanding those things. Matt: What did you learn when you were cycling? Russell: So many lessons. Russell, you are not that good looking. Or cool. Or anything. Matt: It's basically not about you, right? Yeah, I feel that. So what was hardest? What were the tough lessons? Caleb: How many times did you cycle? Russell: Two big ones for sure. Matt: Really? Do you mind sharing? Russell: Yeah, the first time was after I was trying to figure this thing out. I remember one of my buddies was like, you're making money online? I'm like, yeah. He's like, that's cool. I'm like, do you want a job? He's like, what? I'm like, you're the first person I know who's interested. I'll pay you to come hang out with me. He's like, all right. So I hired my friend. He's like, I have some friends too. I'm like, okay. So I start hiring all these people because I want someone to talk to. Anyway, it was really bad. I ended up having a whole bunch of employees nobody knew how to do anything. I didn't know how to train anybody. I was hiding in the room trying to make money to pay payroll while they're standing outside like, do you want us to do anything? I'm like, don't talk to me, I've got to make money to pay your payroll. They're like, we can help. I'm like, I don't have time to explain anything to you. It was horrible. I built it up to the point where it was just like, I was launching a new thing as fast as we could just to pay payroll. As an entrepreneur, you kill something you get to eat, right? It's like the greatest thing in the world. Employees, they want to get paid every two weeks whether they killed anything or not. I did not realize that until they were like we need money and I'm like, but we haven't made any money. They're like you have to pay me. I'm like, what? I'm so confused. Like, okay. Anyway, it had grown and we didn't have a model, sustainable. Speaker 3: You just launched stuff to see if it works? Russell: Yeah. When I was by myself it was like, I had an idea today, let's try it. You launch it, it makes some money, sweet. And then it was like, I made 20, 30 grand. It was my wife and I, so it was like, that lasts nine months. You know? Caleb: What did you sell? Obviously I know the potato gun backstory. You said I talked about funnels for like a decade before that. What were you selling during that decade leading up to ClickFunnels? I know it's an inordinate amount of stuff. Is there anything not even close to funnels, like something ... Russell: Yeah. The very first, pre-potato guns, my very first big idea was ... Back then what everyone was doing, you know who Yanik Silver is. Yanik would write a book and then he would sell the resale rights to the books. Someone else would buy it and they could sell it. I remember I got online, I saw these books, I bought a book from Yanik and I'm like, I can sell this. I bought a book from somebody else. I was buying all these eBooks I could sell. But then inside the books they would have links back to all their sites. I'd sell the book and I was like, I made 10 bucks selling the book. And then inside the book Yanik is selling his thousand dollar course and seminars and things. They make all this money. I'm like, I got 10 bucks. He made like $1,000 off of me selling his book. I remember being mad. I was like I wish there was a way I could brand this ebook so that before somebody opens it and sees his ad they'd see my ad. That was the first idea I ever had, ever. So my first product was called Zip Brander, it was this little thing that would take an ebook and it would brand it. You open it up and it popped up an ad. You see the ad and you click a button and it would take you inside the ebook. It was my first thing. We launched that and I sold 20 or 30 copies of it. But that was the first money I ever made, it was amazing. I had a customer list, I was like this is amazing. And then the way I was selling those, I was going to forums. This is pre-Facebook, so all you little kids, before Facebook, before MySpace, before Friendster, we used to go to these things called forums. They were these things where people would talk all day. So we'd go to these forums. One of the rules in the forums is you could comment all you wanted but you could have a signature file. At the end you could have like, Russel Brunson, check out my new software Zip Brander. I'd go to these forums and I would just spend eight hours a day answering questions and asking questions and everything. People see my ad on every little thing. My footer was on everything. That's how I was selling Zip Brander initially. I was in 50 forums posting like crazy but I couldn't keep up with it. I was like, man, if I could create a software that would manage this whole thing, that would be amazing. So my second product is called Forum Fortunes. It was this little software that would manage your posting on every single forum. You post and you could see if someone responded back on Forum 49 it would pop up and you're like, oh, you can go find it and go back and comment and keep the discussion. I made it for myself and then we started selling that. We sold more of those because I now had a little customer base here and went bigger. After that it was the next. It was always what's the next thing. That's kind of how it started back in the days, little tools and things like that. Speaker 3: How do you know when you're shooting all these bullets, how do you know when you shoot a cannonball? Matt: Good question. Russell: The thing about it initially, I had been married, I was making zero dollars a year as a wrestler, so for me to make $600 in a month, that was a cannonball. That was insane. I thought I was the coolest kid in the world. $600 was insane. So I did four or five little things. I remember it was Christmastime and I remember my wife wanted to buy a couch and it was a $2,000 couch. I was just like, oh, I can't afford that. I don't have a job. I'm getting sick to my stomach. I had this idea, what if I do a sell and just sell a whole bunch of crap that we had. I had a bunch of eBooks I bought rights to, a couple of things I had created, so we made this Grinch sale. I remember I wrote the copy, it was like, it was the Grinch Before Christmas or something. It had a picture of the Grinch and his heart growing three sizes, I don't know. I wrote this copy. My wife and I had been married a year, she really wants a couch, I can't afford a couch, so if you guys buy this, if I sell 32 of these things, I can buy her a couch and put it under the Christmas tree. It will be amazing. Caleb: You said that in the copy? Russell: In the copy, yeah. It was the reason why. I still have the page, I can show it to you. I know exactly where it's at, I can show it to you. So I had the whole page and then only an email list of like a couple hundred people at the time. I still had an affiliate program, so at the top it had an affiliate link. So I sent an email to my list and went to bed that night. Someone on my list was a guy named Carl Galletti, I haven't heard about Carl in a long time. He was a big famous copy writer at the time. Carl went and saw the thing, bought it, and started affiliating. So he joined the affiliate program, he was like this is awesome. He took that email, sent it to his entire list of this huge thing. So I go to bed. I wake up the next morning, we're at $10,000 in sales. Matt: How much before you went to bed? Russell: Oh, like $30, $40 or something. I was like, what just happened. Did I rob someone? I didn't know what happened. I looked at my email and there's all these people who were like, hey, I bought two of them, I hope you can get your wife that couch. Oh, I sent it to my friend. All these people. Because Carl promoted it, all these other people who follow Carl saw it. Carl is like it's converting like crazy. Tons of people are buying it. I'm freaking out. I'm going to wrestling practice trying to answer customer support. I'm late for practice, I ran into wrestling practice, I get back out I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I made like $600 in sales." I'm freaking out. Anyway, the whole thing goes through and over that, I think it was a seven day sale or something like that, we made $35,000. Which is more money than I'd seen in all my lifetime combined times 100, right? I paid probably 10 grand in affiliates. We made, I don't know, $25,000 that we got to keep. I was like, "Oh my gosh." I told Colette, and Colette's like, my wife. I love her. She doesn't understand the business part of things at all. I was like, "We made $25,000." She was like, "Is it illegal?" First thing. "Are you going to go to jail? Is it illegal?" I'm like, "No, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure." The first thing I did is I went and bought the couch for her, for Christmas. We got it back, I got a picture of her, sent it out to the list saying thank you so much, you got the Christmas gift, the couch. They all celebrated together, all the people. I was like oh my gosh, this is the greatest game of all time. This is so much fun. I was like, what's the next idea, what's the next thing. It was like that, these little things. After that one was done now I had way more customers, all these people that had bought my product knew who I was now so the next thing was easier so it incrementally kept growing and getting bigger. Somewhere along the line I launched the potato gun thing. Upsales of things. We didn't call them funnels back then. We called them sales flows or sales processes. Talk about your sales flow, what's your sales flow. Caleb: Sales flow. Russell: I remember Dylan Jones was our partner at ClickFunnels. Before Todd we tried to build something like ClickFunnels, we called it Click.com.com, which is a horrible name. But Dylan's, I still have all the UI images, and in there we had a whole section for sales flows and all these things. It's like, this was the first ClickFunnels. Because Dylan was on the UI eventually on ClickFunnels anyway, but we literally designed something like this five or six years earlier. Just crazy. Matt: Do you think that all those little failures and all the trying and that kind of energy is what brought you here today? Russell: For sure. It's the key. I wish I could grab everybody because everybody's like, okay, I'm waiting for my ClickFunnels, or I'm waiting for my thing. They're waiting and they're waiting and they're waiting. I was like, the reason why I got this thing was because I didn't wait. If someone were to give me ClickFunnels initially it would have been bankrupt in 15 minutes, right? You have to become worthy of the thing eventually. You don't become worthy by waiting, you become worthy by trying. And trying and trying and trying. Eventually, if you keep doing that, over time, then God's like, all right, he's going to do it. He's built 150 funnels, now I'll give him the idea. Matt: Wow, that's powerful. Speaker 3: How much more did you feel that all your other friends are in the same game? Matt: I hope you guys take there's more that's caught than Todd. That's some gold in what he just shared right there, what you were just sharing. But go ahead. What was the question? Speaker 3: I was just saying how much more would you fail if all your other friends were playing the same game? Russell: All my friends were like why are you launching more stuff? Why do you keep doing things? They do like one product launch a year. They got so annoyed. They were like, dude, stop doing stuff. I'm like, why would I stop doing this? This is so much fun. It was just confusing to me. Why don't you guys do more? Everyone, they make money they'd just be done. Caleb: Why would you keep doing more? Was it genuinely like one funnel away? Like this next funnel's the one. Were you just like you sold yourself on it, this is it, so you keep going? Or did you just really enjoy it? Russell: Well each one I thought was. Each one, every time I was so surprised, like this is amazing. That was the one. The next one's bigger. Oh my gosh, that was even better, who knew? And then I just kept going from there, you know what I mean? So I wasn't waiting for ClickFunnels or anything like that. I was just enjoying the journey every time. It was so exciting. Eventually it was like, oh crap, who knew that that was going to do what it did. Caleb: Was it all emails? Was there any ads or was there anything to scale the traffic? Russell: First 10 years was 100% emails, partnerships. There wasn't ads back then. I mean, there was Google ads, but the first initial Google slap happened about the time I was getting started. Prior to that a lot of guys I knew built their email list off of Google ads and then the slap happened. A lot of them had lists. I started getting to know those guys, going to events, meeting them, so that's how it started initially was tons of that. And then there was this big gap for years where paid ads weren't a thing. Some people did banner ads, but it wasn't consistent. It wasn't like it is nowadays. It was harder. You worked harder and all the stuff wasn't there. Mostly we focused on ... If you didn't have an email list, you weren't playing the game. It's like, who's got lists, how can you build lists, what can you do? Matt: You still think that's true to a degree? Russell: 100%. That's why the traffic seekers book was so important for me to write, I feel like, because most of the people in the game today have been blessed with Zuckerberg's simple Facebook ads that make the game easy. Matt: Wow. Russell: They've never focused on building lists. I was like, you guys, just so you know, Zuckerberg is going to screw us all. It's going to happen. Matt: Yeah. Caleb: It will happen. Russell: It's like, if you don't have a list you're all screwed. I've been through this for 18 years now, I've been through five or six cycles. I've seen people who made millions of dollars who now are not online. The people who have waded the storm the whole time are all the list builders. They're the ones who survived. Everyone else who's good at ads, they come and they go and they come and they go.

Today we talk with Matt Crawford with the Montgomery Company in South Carolina about what is happening in the Columbia Market. We cover everything from the way he works, economic and employment trends, taxes, the current level of competition, and other things that make Columbia an investor's market.  --- Transcript Michael: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by my co hosts, Tom Schneider and Mark Woodling. And we have a very special guest with us today, Matt Crawford is an agent out of Columbia, South Carolina. And today Matt's gonna be giving us a market overview and talk about some of the things that he and his team are able to assist buyers and sellers in doing in that market. So let's get into it.     Awesome. So Matt Crawford, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. Really appreciate you being on the show.   Matt: Excellent. Thank you, Mike. Glad to be here.   Michael: And so you're out in Columbia, South Carolina. Is that right?   Matt: Yeah, Sunny Columbia mass about 85 degrees, you know, beautiful state born and raised about an hour north of here. So fantastic market, man, it's a good place to be.   Michael: Awesome. And I'm curious, Matt, who are you an agent with.   Matt: So right now, my agency is hung under the Montgomery company, which is a pretty interesting story. And just to quickly unpack that, Matt Montgomery, he's a great friend of mine. He runs a massive construction business here in the southeast. And just for the conveniency of our partnership, I ended up creating a brokerage with him. And I'm really sort of the head of the firm, sole proprietor of that brokerage, which I moved my company under, which is technically not a capital in southern capital brothers, which is our investment brokerage underneath this umbrella.   Tom: That's a perfect segue, Matt, and, you know, before jumping into Columbia, South Carolina, I'd love to learn a little bit more about yourself and your background and how you got to where you're at today.   Matt: Yeah, 100% time, you know, it's a, it's been a journey, you know, as we all are inclined to take. And so, you know, I'm going to probably take this back five years, you know, I'm in Denver, Colorado, man, loving life, sort of so in the proverbial oats of a new broker. And I started really getting into cahoots with a lot of the investors out in Colorado, a lot of these guys were doing huge land acquisitions, building massive multifamily complexes, as well as doing something that I'd never heard of, which was institutional capital investing.   So they were piecing together these massive SFR, BTR portfolios, renting them out, stabilize them, and then doing the disposition strategy. And I was like, what a awesome niche within the real estate arena to start cutting my teeth on. And so we got licensed in Colorado started working with these guys, the barrier to entry there for a new young agent in his 20s was so massive, and like, man, it'd be great if I had $600,000 for my first rental, not the case.   So I look back to my roots back here in Columbia, South Carolina, where I can get that first rental for about 50,000. And so jumped over here about four years ago, and started building some institutional funds with a previous venture, we built that went to about 2200 homes deployed around 220 million over 24 months. I don't think I slept much. I probably lost a little bit of weight. But I learned a lot, you know, and, and from there, you know, there was a talk about destiny, talk about fate, you know, the pandemic arose, a created a little bit of space, to sort of see where I wanted to navigate. And, you know, I decided with a few of my other founders, Jordan, and Alex Fisher, to start our own company. And that's sort of how we got here today,   Tom: I had a boss who had a pretty funny joke. I was like, working a lot of hours. And he's like, Hey, good news. Tom, you're getting credit for two years of work, which is one year by working, you know, every day, 100 hour weeks, you know, yes.   Matt: It is a journey man is like, you know, you know, first and last out, but we had the, the gusto of, you know, being passionate and, and finding, you know, a purpose within the the jumble of real estate, not at one point, I thought it was so binary, you know, it's just traditional transactions between buyers and sellers, and then start unpacking that man, I'm like, oh, man, if you can sell one home, you could sell a portfolio of 1000 homes. And so that's what brought us here.   Tom: Let's, let's learn a little bit more about the practice today. Your guyses brokerage today.   Matt: Yep, yep. So, you know, we really have pivoted to fly a new banner. That banner is called Southern capital. It's a company that we've had for many years. And what that really does is it pieces together investment clients, like you guys have it Roofstock with really high profile properties here in the southeast. And if we can drill down even more granular, you know, Colombia has been our top market. And it's just so funny how it happened. You know, when I, when I ended here, I wasn't thinking, Oh, Colombia is going to be the most fantastic rental market ever. But it is just really happen that way, the average property value in ratio to the average rent rate is just so incredibly strong, that it's created a lot of attraction.   So at Southern capital, I have Jordan shots, he's just like our tech, no, not man, this guy is building these fantastic databases. He's bifurcating all these beautiful codes on the back end, that parallels the software that you guys have, you know, shout out to Andy, and Danielle, for Roofstock. And it's just played so well in our court. And then Alex Fisher, the guys basically like a pseudo General of the military. And he's just running fantastic operations, and allowing me to sort of be on the forefront, gaining knowledge, making really strategic connections, and providing the utmost service to the clientele.   And so Southern capital sort of walks that fine line of servicing large institutional clients. But I've really, really enjoyed the opportunity that mark and Matt and you all at rusak have provided us, which is working really intimately with people from all around the world. I mean, we've had, we've closed deals in India now, like doing five day meltaways. And I'm like, this is awesome, man. Because with the with the large institutional space, you know, with any kind of maybe corporate structure, you almost become a data point. You know, they're they're really looking hard at performance underwriting sheets, which I'm fine with. And I love the scalability of numbers. But there's something beautiful about that connection of getting on the phone with someone who's buying their first rental or their 10th rental, looking at looking at their projected rent rates. And that's sort of what we're doing in a nutshell, on the day to day here.   Mark: Let me kind of unpack it, as Matt Crawford would say, in a sense of connecting why Matt's here with us today, because, you know, Matt's one of our prized certified agents that Roofstock has partnered with, he's the one that's actually handpicking properties to bring over to Roofstock select. So we don't just treat Matt like he's a partner, but he is sitting in the same arena with us, he is there rolling up his sleeves every single day, and really bringing properties a Roofstock. So we want to give Matt a shout out bring him on the podcast because a he's an expert in Columbia, South Carolina, we want people to understand it, but he's the guy that's handpicking the properties for the Select program.   So if anybody likes what you're doing, they're going to see your work. It's almost like artwork that's going up on Roofstock. So great job, thanks for all your participation. And again, I would love to love to get into the market when when we do really unpack it for for the crowd, because there's a lot of things happening in South Carolina, but specifically your market.   Matt: I love it. I love it. Mark within let's uh, let me let me switch some gears real quick. Now you guys have started getting the creative juices flowing. So let's talk about the masterpiece, the artwork, and that breaks down to the underwriting that goes into these problems. So all that history that we just covered, taught us one thing, and that's how to underwrite really well to be the best underwriters, right? In South Carolina, you know, putting that out there into the universe. And so it is an art form. You know, we're looking at a ton of different data points. We're looking at so many different comps, whether it's purchase comps, rent comps, we're looking at outlier data that we're pulling off Airbnb, err, DNA that we're trying to figure out how many data points can I put on this one property to make it a sure bet for an investor.   And that really is what's given us the success with the Roofstock program, you know, as Mark mentioned, you know, we're looking at these properties every single day, manually underwriting them, you know, which is a huge, huge help from Jordan, my partner, you know, really appreciate you, Jordan when you see this, but we're getting on there, and everything is converting, because we've already done that heavy lifting upfront, you know, and I think that's sort of the secret sauce here, as well as being so intimate with the market here. And that's just the beauty of painting this piece for you guys.     Michael: Matt. So if we can peel back another layer of this proverbial onion here, what are you seeing? Are you able to get a finger on what makes great investment properties in Colombia?   Matt: 100%, like, you know, it's, it's gonna come down like the easiest way is my hot zones. You know, there's a, there's zip codes, no 29209, 29206, you know, 29203 I want to stay away from except if I'm on this one side of the street. And so just being able to speak on the micro locality. I think that's such an important word here is a huge service to these investors. And then, you know, like any, you know, skilled tradesmen of his craft, you get to a point where you can Almost looking at property, as long as sort of meets the actual locale checkbox, in my mind, I can tell you, this is going to be a great rental. And I can also tell you if the area is going to have a specific tenant demographic that's going to play in to the longevity of your asset. And that simply just comes from experience from data, you know, those probably now 25 different homes that we've managed to underwrite, put in a pipeline, put a tenant in there and have it stabilized. And so that really has allowed us to speak really clearly to the Rootstock clientele.   Michael: that's such a good point. Because like we've sent out other episodes, you know, the, the what the one thing you can never change about a property's location. So getting that right off the bat is so critical.   Matt: Oh, man. And and and, you know, I'm not gonna lie. It's sort of fun. Because you go across the bridge here in Colombia, you have you have greater Colombia, then you have West Columbia, which is a whole different municipality, and it's split by a huge river called the Congo. Five years ago, there was no one saying, hey, let's head across the river, it was almost like that was a less developed obtuse area. Well, now, these veterans just came in, they put $4 million dollars into a brand new brewery right on the river. And so I'm doing reconnaissance, hitting up the brewery, checking out all the properties around there and then actually sourcing data, you know, so it's, it's a lot of give and take, but you know, it's how creative can you get with your market? Know, your market in my eyes is a product, you know, how can you literally turn these widgets polish this product to make it presentable and digestible from somebody who's investing all the way from California? And that's what we do.   Tom: Would love to hear about some of the broader kind of like macro tailwind. So Colombia is the capital of the state. What other you know, how else would you describe this sort of, you know, general kind of tailwinds. Beyond, behind the Columbia, South Carolina market, like what are the major employers all that good stuff?     Matt: Yeah. Awesome, awesome question time. And it's, it's so just, to me, it's a beautiful thing, what's happening here, so an hour north of here you have Charlotte, North Carolina 2018, ranked the number one city for millennial retention in the US. You know, two and a half, two and a half hours east of here yet Charleston, South Carolina, ranked the number one best small town in the US of this several years in a row. If you go an hour and a half Northwest, you're in Greenville, South Carolina, which is also have gone through this huge development curve.   And then you have Little Columbia right in the smack middle of the state that has been like overseen for the last seven years as each one of these towns develops. And we're now starting to see this huge shift of people being priced out of assets and Charlotte green go in Charleston. And so all that wealth is coming right to the center of the state now, and this is super evident. And probably the last three to four years, like you know, call it serendipity or what may have you but right when I moved here, it was the first time institutional capital really got into this market.   And now it is just turning in two parallel that the big players are now coming to town, these huge multinational conglomerates, just to rattle a few law, we have Prisma health Prisma health basically aggregates massive hospital systems, puts them under the Prisma banner sort of puts a new culture and spin on the health care that has exploded here. They bone up everything and Columbia and Lexington and irmo. With that medical Lance now on Columbia, Nephron pharmaceuticals, one of the largest pharmaceutical manufacturers in the country, actually opened up their HQ here in Lexington. I think it brought around like 12,000 jobs to town. I mean, you cannot go out and meet somebody Now, that doesn't have a gig at nephron.   So those two players really showed that Columbia can get out of sort of the Capitol education scene, and now we're having huge entities pick up. So outside of the medical field, of course, you're gonna have education, you have the University of South Carolina, for all you awesome investors out there. This is a cash grab of amazing students as fantastic business program and a law program that sort of as you can sort of insinuate is going to feed into the rentals, especially if we're going to be plotting these five to 10 miles outside of downtown Columbia.   And I would say probably the third is going to be your, your political and your military industry. We have Fort Jackson right here. It's the largest trainee base in all of the US, I believe, for new recruits. So what we've done as well is we pivoted to the industry. So on my personal portfolios, we're actually doing a majority of short term rentals Airbnb models, which is something that you know if you guys are ever interested in I'd love to also unpack that to sort of look at the underwriting scales between a 12 month long term lease versus if we put this into a another tier of short term leases. But all those things just play perfectly together with the assets that are available in Colombia.   Mark: So Matt, I always like to play around with the Economic Development Council websites and like, really dig into what's happening, like, how are these? How is the local city trying to draw in outside business? Right. And so they're always putting a ton of numbers up there. So I see that there's a ton of renters, there's a young population. But tell me, one thing I didn't see on there is tech, what's happening in the tech scene out there? What kind of jobs do you think are being developed? And maybe are there a ton of startups moving in or Yeah, go into a little detail about that.   Matt: 100%. And I think that's also the beauty of a lot of people, especially in the startup world, you know, being a entrepreneur myself, you know, might not have that $50,000 liquid to plop down on a $220,000 starter home. Or, in fact, they might have used that liquid to actually inject into their business or building. And we're seeing an explosion of that community here. Maybe it's because FCRA is a huge grantee here in Columbia, South Carolina, they're getting everything from 20,000, up to $200,000 startup grants.   So people are just flooding this town, seeking those grants, you know, there's low, low barrier to entry. This is not Charlotte, this is not Atlanta. So you really can get great visibility into the market without having all the noise of similar competitors. Everything from five bubble five bubble was a fantastic tech startup here. Shout out to those guys. We meet with them all the time. And then even more so mark, to your point, because of that community, because of that influx that's now happening and putting this polish on this town, there's a massive tech, what would you call this, like a, like, tech village, man, it's probably like, I don't know, a million square feet total. But it's going to be housing. Tons and tons of startups that come in and basically have office space for   Mark: Basically like an incubator where everybody can come together, exchange ideas, and magic happens in those kinds of environments.   Matt: It's massive. And I think I can add one more layer to that as well is that at the key here, you know, Tom and Mike to fill you guys in this is a true tertiary market, right? You know, this is tertiary being that we have moderately low purchase prices, and comparative to the historical rent rates. And so in any kind of investors mind, you really want to be searching for that true tertiary market, but not only got a tertiary market, but a evolving tertiary market that's about to flip over into the secondary category, secondary, secondary, meaning you have a little bit more modernize commercial entities, we have a lot more retention of your population that is grown there, then you have just a average household income starting to rise and a gradual slope.   That literally is happening right now. And that's what's helping retain startups retain the young millennials that are getting out of their MBAs or college. And we're bout to flip into a true secondary market, whereas Charlotte, Charleston, Atlanta, I would say a primary, you know, they have massive, massive inventory, but also high purchase prices, we're bouncing the ball, which that secondary market, which I think is the perfect time to start planting some seeds and dollars here, because in three to five years, this, this city is going to have a total different culture, a different field. And as you guys would, you know, understand a totally different marketplace. And that's what makes it so healthy right now to invest in.     Michael: So Matt, let's let's unpack that a little bit further and talk about some specifics. So if somebody is just a first time investor looking at different markets, which is a question we get all the time, and the Roofstock Academy is, hey, what market should I be looking at? Can you give us an idea of what that entry purchase price looks like? And what someone could expect for rent, and maybe give us an idea of some different neighborhoods to look at at a different price point and rental amounts.   Matt: Oh, let's rock and roll. Michael, you know, for everyone out there watching, you know, my two senses. Let's get started. Right? Come on. Like, we will literally show you the ins and outs of this marketplace. But it's easy to have analysis paralysis, you know, especially or building a portfolio or investing, you know, hard earned capital or anything. I understand that there's this level of nervousness. How do I choose between San Antonio or do I look in California? I've never even heard of Columbia, South Carolina.   But I can tell you if you guys just give us the opportunity to show you the ins and outs. You'll see exactly why this is the number one market The Roofstock buyer program right now. And that's because you can come in, you can buy a house for $80,000. For 80k, if we have it in the bank account, collectively, I'm going to put this over in West Columbia, I'm going to literally draw you a circle that is probably around five minutes from the actual river front. And so the fact that we can get that close to a beautiful amenity, you're about to be 10 minutes from downtown for $80,000, it's going to run out conservatively probably 1200 to 1250. Now if we come in there, we slap granite, stainless steel appliances, maybe put some LVT on the flooring, that $80,000 property, literally now could probably fetch $1500 for a modest three bed two bath, and I am hard pressed to find a another market that can support such high rent rates with such low barrier to entry and the purchase price without maybe going to specific places in Birmingham, Alabama, or what have you. But that's the beauty of Columbia right now.   Tom: As we're talking I'm like looking over Zillow in the area. And man, I love how I love how self serving this podcast is. It was will definitely be talking after math like, I don't know, I'm gonna love the thesis on like this.   Matt: It's a beautiful thing.   Mark Well, what I love about it's a state capitol, right, and you have a major college there. I live in Dallas, near Austin, Texas. And it's like the two things I see with Austin are the same exact thing that you would see in Columbia, it's just it may be years behind. So people move to affordable areas and where they can stay young, right? You get out of college, you find a good job, you can stay hanging around your friends if you really wanted to. So there could be some really cool things I see in Colombia happening.   Matt: Massive and Mark, I can even add some two cents there. And that can parallel it to with your point, Mike about, you know, what are some micro neighborhoods to start really searching in and so if anybody's taking notes, Rosewood, you know, rosewood is where you want to be it's literally maybe what happened to Austin five years ago before Austin became keep Austin weird. Like, that's what's happening in Rosewood right now. We have world renowned graffiti artists, you know, tagging massive walls, like the coolest stuff that you know, really did not reflect in Colombia, even two years ago, even like pre pandemic like there was no, no justified culture.   There certainly wasn't an art area. You know, I think back to Denver, Colorado when the river North District, which is now this huge art conglomerate, that literally is happening here. So if you're ever searching for properties, massive, massive student population, it's going to be in the Rosewood neighborhood area. And it really is following that path like Austin is of creating its own personality, its own culture, and its own distinctive.   Tom: Where is rosewood? I'm looking at my map right now. And this is probably for helpful people pulling up their map where is rosewood relative to the center of Colombia, maybe like near a freeway or where is Yeah.   Matt: But I'm looking at the center of Columbia, like, literally pinpoint the very center actually is the state capitol. It is three miles to the right. So literally, if you just look to the right, I'm pretty sure the zip code is 29204. Nope, internet 206. But there is a main bang, there it is. It's literally called…   Tom: Inside of 77, just south of 378. Is that right? Cool.   Matt: Yep, that is 100%. Right. And it's just like, it's the coolest spot man. There's like a 19 hundred's airstrip that's been this like massive hangout spot on they actually converted the hangar into a state of the art brewery. And so using those like outlier data points, like, especially with something as commodity commoditized, as a brewery, I've been seeing values on these properties jumped up 10 to 13%, year after year, just because it was getting to attain more and more populations. And it's becoming hit, you know, for whatever arbitrary.   Tom: Looking at the great school ratings, I'm seeing an elementary school and an eight, which is incredibly high and middle school to five in Dre, her high school at a seven those are those are fantastic school scores. And that's one of my big criteria that I look at. So we might need to you know, hide this part of the podcast because     Mark: Or let's do the opposite. So after this, you have you have full control, go ahead and post some properties on a roof stock in the rosewood neighborhood. And let's let's see it through the roof stock lens. So I think we're onto something here.   Matt: Absolutely. And then, you know, Tom, now that you're sort of looking into the map, you know, I'm going to sort of drive us down. I 26. This head west probably about 13 minutes. I'm getting off at exit 103 B and I'm in Lexington, South Carolina. You know, so a lot of people, a lot of people will come in and say that tell me about Colombia. So the big four that you want to really start investing in, that's going to be Colombia proper. West Colombia, KC, which is right parallel to West Colombia, and Lexington man, Lexington is like Hotlanta, baby, but a lot smaller. And it's just fantastic. It's created its own culture. It's right beside Lake Murray, which for this area, you know, is literally as I'm sweating in my back, I'm glad you can always see my front right now is a beautiful thing to have. And these, you know, you're gonna have a little bit more competition, but anywhere in Lexington, especially centralized and looking East fantastic inventory.   Michael: So Matt, this is this is really great. And I love that delta between the purchase price and the rental amount. I mean, that sounds like it's really, really strong. Something that our investors see is either able to make or break these deals as an investment is often Pentagon property taxes. Can you talk to us a little bit about how property taxes work in the Columbia market?   Matt: Yes, 100%. And it may or Benjamin, you're watching this, please answer my emails, because the taxes are tough man, you know, it really is, it's the double edged sword. You know, with such a fantastic market such beautiful rent rates and purchase prices, of course, there has to be some catch. And that is going to be the non owner occupied property taxes, you know, and these are going to really come in roughly around 3% of your gross purchase price.   So, you know, on a four bed two and a half bath, beautiful new bill, that's, you know, 210,000, man, you're gonna get slapped with, like $5700 tax bill. So I mean, if your cash flowing, you know, a couple 100 bucks a month, that means you're probably only gonna net maybe four to five to 6k annually. It eats up a lot of the margin. So Mayor Benjamin, please, can we change that law and attract more beautiful investors in estate. But what we're doing to offset that is looking for those lower purchase price assets. Right.   So a lot of people they want the new builds, you know, they sound sexy on paper. But, you know, to win to win in this market, need to combat, that 3%, non owner occupied property tax, you know, let's play in the 120 to $150,000 range. So now your taxes are three grand, and we're going to get that thing rented at 1500 to 1800. That's how we can combat such a tax problem.   Michael: And just as a kind of a point of reference. So folks understand why people might be continuing to move to Colombia. What is the tax rate for an owner occupant? Matt: Oh, man, it's less than half man. It's like, you're not really paying much. You know, and there's a ton of grants out here as well, to incentivize people to move to Colombia. You know, and I can even go into a little bit of deeper history of why that is. So, you know, the 1980s, the sort of the war on drugs really hit Columbia hard, because this is this is historically a new labor force town, you know, we have a massive flour mill in the heart of downtown that now it's become sort of a legacy item, no, people have weddings on top of it now.   So that demographic really was affected by the 1980s pandemic itself. And a lot of the assets in the single family units sort of were deteriorated, especially in some zip codes, nobody would move there and develop them. And so now the state is giving tons of grants for people to come in and give more life to this city, as we're sort of pulling out of that prior, that prior culture that really stuck around really, until today, there's still pockets and 29203 that are, you know, less than desirable, because the demographic there has sort of been inundated with the ancestral baggage that came from a few years ago.   Tom: This is awesome. Michael, do you have any more questions or mark, anything else you want to touch on? I'm, this has been? Yeah, I'm, I'm a fan. I don't know. I've been looking at market for a while. And this kind of conversation really is drawing me in a little bit. A little bit closer for sure.   Michael: Yeah, I guess my only other question that would be kind of on that on the example you gave previously. Were you getting in for 80k? Putting in that granite countertops and stainless steel now that thing could rent is renting at 1500? Is there any type of reassessment that the county is going to do in any kind of regular frequency? Or is your property tax truly tied to the purchase price at acquisition?   Matt: Boom! So everybody, Let's get some house hacking skills ready? Because it's tied to that gross acquisition price. And so that's how you get to beat the market here is you can get by a distressed property for 60k You know, that's so 20 $25,000 into it, you know, Sue Paint windows flooring kitchen. And that thing's now gonna appreciate and appraise probably at 120 125k ran out for 1500. But now we're only tied to that $60,000 original purchase price, we're going to let it season we're going to refi our money, and we're going to keep it rolling.   And that's exactly what we did in tranches of 100 properties, every 100, we do that exact strategy, pull that cash out, recycle that it's your, your, your gilded, BRRRR strategy, and it works perfectly for this market. And so, actually, Mark is very well aware of this, that there are a few individuals that have come to this, this market space through you guys. And we're actually doing that right now. So, you know, Southern capital, we are a acquisition renovation management company. And so we have what I literally would crowned the best crew, because we have cycled through the last years of who guys can keep up with the scalability, that consistency and the sourcing of these renovations.   And that's where Matt Montgomery, who we mentioned at the very start of this cast, that company now supports all of our innovations. And so, guys, if you're interested in the Columbia market, you want to find a way to get around the property taxes, you know, my resources are your resources, I'm more than happy to have a scope built for you completely itemized with timelines. General rule of thumb is for every $1,000 renovation, it's about one day. So a $30,000 job should take us about a solid month to do. But that is one really great way to start cash flow and quickly here in Colombia.   Michael: That's great. And let's just kind of highlight that again, Matt. So if I'm an investor, I'm interested in doing some kind of value, add renovation, and then putting a long term tenant in place, I can do that all with you and southern capital, you'll take care of the acquisitions, you'll assist in the renovations, and then you'll manage the property once I've got it completed.   Matt: 100%. So that was the whole idea of creating a holistic turnkey investment centric brokerage. That is a mouthful, but basically, we're here to be your best friend. And not only that, but we have the opportunity and the blessings of working with people like Mark, yourself, Michael, yourself, Tom, the whole team at Rootstock. So their back office, our front office and operations literally have made such matrimony moving forward that we're here to help.   Michael: I love it. Tom, like you said, I got to make a couple phone calls over the over to Matt's office here after we hop off. Yeah.   Matt: Come on the ship is sailing, baby.   Mark: Got one last question. Now that I think about one last question for you, Matt. So buyers can really understand what you know, what the competition level is there? Are you seeing multiple offer situations on every property? Or is it less frequent, like we see in like Birmingham right now where almost every property has multiple offers?   Matt: Awesome, awesome. Question mark. And so Phil, you know, everybody tuning in, you know, it's, you know, we're almost 50% maybe the last that I checked, 48% less inventory, then last April of 2020. So every offer is almost I would say 95% a multiple offer situation. But this is what we're going to do. You know, we're going to get your offer, we're going to expedite it being built out signed by you. I literally pick up my call and just being a player here in Colombia. I know a lot of the brokers say Hey, man, this is one of my investment clients, you know, you know, I know you love your your buyers and sellers, but I really value these people and their trust, can you please put me at the top of the pile.   And so that's, that's me. I'm kissing babies and shaking hands. And so I really push it as far as I can. But if you guys are coming in, we really have, I would say one shot to get it right. But that's not the case. Because if I know that we're not the highest and best, I'm gonna allow us that window, you know, and a lot of times they say, hey, Matt, we're sorry, the sellers didn't even you know, want a call for highest and best but I'm pressing these people I'm following up. I'm texting them say Hey, man, before you accept, you got to give me some feedback.   So that's number one. So guys, if you come in know that we're going to be right at ask, you know, if not five to 7% over ask. But that's not the end of the story. There's a beautiful part. And this is really what I think makes us dangerous is our off market channel. So for the last several years, I've amassed this massive contacts through asset managers to different real estate lawyers from local investors portfolios, trust funds, and say, Hey, guys, like funnel your inventory through me and I can bring a really, really healthy productive investment base to buy these acquisitions. And so I think that's what makes Columbia stand out from the rest is that we're uploading exclusive off market properties every single day that are not publicly facing and not on Zillow. They're not on the MLS stay get the sort of forsee that wave of multiple offer situations and avoid it completely. And that's something that we've done tons of transactions With the Roofstock clientele as well.   Mark: And just to fill in on that, so you're doing that through our BYOB program, right the bring your own property, so you can send our private link, because otherwise we can't post those because they're not on the MLS. And we don't have the listing, which would be the ones that go on our exclusive marketplace. But there's still a way for buyers to get access to that inventory through you. So if they want to reach out, you can show them some of those properties, but still use the roof stock lens, so they can get the roof stock guarantees if if the properties are in the right condition.   Matt: 100% Mark, and you know, you know, Fred Haines, I hope you're watching this podcast, he just picked up four off markets from us here in Colombia. The guy is a champion, Fred, thank you so much pleasure to work with you. And we're going to get those things closed here in the month of May.   Michael: Oh, that's so exciting. So Matt, if folks do want to reach out to you or southern capital or have questions about you know, reaching out, purchasing properties, getting rehab or management services, what's the best way for folks to get in touch with you?   Matt: Man, I love the email. So MCrawford@roofstock.com shoot me an email, I'll shoot you a calendly link we'll get a phone call. I absolutely love that discovery phase, to sort of hear what your investment footprint is. What you are looking from this market that's gonna help me perform for you guys.   Michael: Alrighty, everybody that was our episode a big big big thank you to Matt for coming on the show a lot of fun. Kudos to you for crushing it out there with the roofstock select program as a certified agent. We definitely look forward to having you on again. If you'd like the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is your podcasts. And as always, we'd love to hear new episode ideas, topics feedback in the comment section. If you want to hear about a particular episode. Again, thank you all for watching. We look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing

Todd: OK. Matt, we're back. We're gonna talk about music. What is your favorite kind of music?Matt: My favorite kind of music is alternative music. Generally, I like all types of music apart from country music.Todd: I'm the same way. I hate country except for Johny Cash.Matt: Yeah. The older country is good but the newer, I don't like the newer stuff.Todd: Yeah. How expensive are CDs in your country?Matt: Well, a brand new CD is probably between about 15 and 20 dollars. Yeah, but you can find used CDs from anything to a dollar to.. you know, 20 dollars I guess, depending on the CD. So you can find cheap CDs.Todd: Wow, that's pretty cheap. Do you play a musical instrument?Matt: No, I don't. Although, when I was a kid I played the piano and a little bit of the guitar but I've long since forgotten all of that.Todd: Usually, you pick up the guitar and you don'tstop playing it.Matt: There was no talent.Todd: Do you go to concerts?Matt: I go. I really enjoy going to concerts but I like to go to small venues. Small shows. I don't like those big stadium shows where you need binoculars just to see the stage.Todd: Yeah, I agree. And the last question, most importantly, do you sing in the shower?Matt: Of course I do. Yeah, every chance I get.Todd: Wow, what kind of songs do you sing?Matt: Oh, wow! I guess anything that's in my head, the last thing I heard I guess.Todd: Can you sing something right now?Matt: I don't think so. This isn't a shower.

Todd: OK. Matt, we're back. We're gonna talk about music. What is your favorite kind of music?Matt: My favorite kind of music is alternative music. Generally, I like all types of music apart from country music.Todd: I'm the same way. I hate country except for Johny Cash.Matt: Yeah. The older country is good but the newer, I don't like the newer stuff.Todd: Yeah. How expensive are CDs in your country?Matt: Well, a brand new CD is probably between about 15 and 20 dollars. Yeah, but you can find used CDs from anything to a dollar to.. you know, 20 dollars I guess, depending on the CD. So you can find cheap CDs.Todd: Wow, that's pretty cheap. Do you play a musical instrument?Matt: No, I don't. Although, when I was a kid I played the piano and a little bit of the guitar but I've long since forgotten all of that.Todd: Usually, you pick up the guitar and you don'tstop playing it.Matt: There was no talent.Todd: Do you go to concerts?Matt: I go. I really enjoy going to concerts but I like to go to small venues. Small shows. I don't like those big stadium shows where you need binoculars just to see the stage.Todd: Yeah, I agree. And the last question, most importantly, do you sing in the shower?Matt: Of course I do. Yeah, every chance I get.Todd: Wow, what kind of songs do you sing?Matt: Oh, wow! I guess anything that's in my head, the last thing I heard I guess.Todd: Can you sing something right now?Matt: I don't think so. This isn't a shower.

Todd: OK. Matt, we're back. We're gonna talk about music. What is your favorite kind of music?Matt: My favorite kind of music is alternative music. Generally, I like all types of music apart from country music.Todd: I'm the same way. I hate country except for Johny Cash.Matt: Yeah. The older country is good but the newer, I don't like the newer stuff.Todd: Yeah. How expensive are CDs in your country?Matt: Well, a brand new CD is probably between about 15 and 20 dollars. Yeah, but you can find used CDs from anything to a dollar to.. you know, 20 dollars I guess, depending on the CD. So you can find cheap CDs.Todd: Wow, that's pretty cheap. Do you play a musical instrument?Matt: No, I don't. Although, when I was a kid I played the piano and a little bit of the guitar but I've long since forgotten all of that.Todd: Usually, you pick up the guitar and you don'tstop playing it.Matt: There was no talent.Todd: Do you go to concerts?Matt: I go. I really enjoy going to concerts but I like to go to small venues. Small shows. I don't like those big stadium shows where you need binoculars just to see the stage.Todd: Yeah, I agree. And the last question, most importantly, do you sing in the shower?Matt: Of course I do. Yeah, every chance I get.Todd: Wow, what kind of songs do you sing?Matt: Oh, wow! I guess anything that's in my head, the last thing I heard I guess.Todd: Can you sing something right now?Matt: I don't think so. This isn't a shower.

Todd: Hello, Matt!Matt: Hello, Todd!Todd: Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about pets.Matt: OK.Todd: First question, do you have a pet?Matt: Yes, my pet at my mom's house we have three pets; two dogs and a cat. My family actually raises dogs for helping blind people.Todd: Oh, really?Matt: Yeah.Todd: Wow, like how do they train the dogs?Matt: How do they train the dogs? Well, I mean it's a long process right? We get them when they're puppies and so we train them basic. You know, sit, come... really basic things. Then after they're about two year old they go to a different training school.Todd: Oh, wow. That's great!Matt: Yeah!Todd: Well, how many dogs do they usually train at a time?Matt: Oh, just one. We have our own dog and then we have a dog that we have that we are training.Todd: Oh, OK.Matt: Yeah, just one dog at a time.Todd: Do you ever see the dogs you trained like out on the street or anything?Matt: Sometimes we see them. They'll have like sort of conventions of reunions of the pets. Yeah, you get to see them every once in a while.Todd: Oh, wow! That's cool. Why do people keep pets?Matt: I guess the most important thing is companionship, right? So there is always somebody there for you that will like you no matter what.Todd: Yeah, that's true. OK. Besides cats, dogs and fish, what are some other pets people keep?Matt: Well, I guess if you are Siegfried and Roy you can keep a tiger or lion. I guess all types of things don't they?Todd: Yeah.Matt: I mean, my friend has a snake. I don't know if you mention that snake, ferrets and insects, spiders...Todd: OK.Matt: All kinds of things.Todd: All right. Yeah, like there is so many. What are some costs associated with keeping a pet?Matt: Food is probably the biggest cost. But also if you keep the dog, particularly a dog in your house when they are puppies and we have a lot of puppies they'll chew up everything they can so we're constantly replacing shoes and you know, cleaning up pee from the carpet and things like that. It can be a hassle.Todd: Yeah, OK. Thanks a lot Matt. By the way, where are you from?Matt: I'm from the U.S.A., from Minnesota.

Todd: Hello, Matt!Matt: Hello, Todd!Todd: Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about pets.Matt: OK.Todd: First question, do you have a pet?Matt: Yes, my pet at my mom's house we have three pets; two dogs and a cat. My family actually raises dogs for helping blind people.Todd: Oh, really?Matt: Yeah.Todd: Wow, like how do they train the dogs?Matt: How do they train the dogs? Well, I mean it's a long process right? We get them when they're puppies and so we train them basic. You know, sit, come... really basic things. Then after they're about two year old they go to a different training school.Todd: Oh, wow. That's great!Matt: Yeah!Todd: Well, how many dogs do they usually train at a time?Matt: Oh, just one. We have our own dog and then we have a dog that we have that we are training.Todd: Oh, OK.Matt: Yeah, just one dog at a time.Todd: Do you ever see the dogs you trained like out on the street or anything?Matt: Sometimes we see them. They'll have like sort of conventions of reunions of the pets. Yeah, you get to see them every once in a while.Todd: Oh, wow! That's cool. Why do people keep pets?Matt: I guess the most important thing is companionship, right? So there is always somebody there for you that will like you no matter what.Todd: Yeah, that's true. OK. Besides cats, dogs and fish, what are some other pets people keep?Matt: Well, I guess if you are Siegfried and Roy you can keep a tiger or lion. I guess all types of things don't they?Todd: Yeah.Matt: I mean, my friend has a snake. I don't know if you mention that snake, ferrets and insects, spiders...Todd: OK.Matt: All kinds of things.Todd: All right. Yeah, like there is so many. What are some costs associated with keeping a pet?Matt: Food is probably the biggest cost. But also if you keep the dog, particularly a dog in your house when they are puppies and we have a lot of puppies they'll chew up everything they can so we're constantly replacing shoes and you know, cleaning up pee from the carpet and things like that. It can be a hassle.Todd: Yeah, OK. Thanks a lot Matt. By the way, where are you from?Matt: I'm from the U.S.A., from Minnesota.

Todd: Hello, Matt!Matt: Hello, Todd!Todd: Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about pets.Matt: OK.Todd: First question, do you have a pet?Matt: Yes, my pet at my mom's house we have three pets; two dogs and a cat. My family actually raises dogs for helping blind people.Todd: Oh, really?Matt: Yeah.Todd: Wow, like how do they train the dogs?Matt: How do they train the dogs? Well, I mean it's a long process right? We get them when they're puppies and so we train them basic. You know, sit, come... really basic things. Then after they're about two year old they go to a different training school.Todd: Oh, wow. That's great!Matt: Yeah!Todd: Well, how many dogs do they usually train at a time?Matt: Oh, just one. We have our own dog and then we have a dog that we have that we are training.Todd: Oh, OK.Matt: Yeah, just one dog at a time.Todd: Do you ever see the dogs you trained like out on the street or anything?Matt: Sometimes we see them. They'll have like sort of conventions of reunions of the pets. Yeah, you get to see them every once in a while.Todd: Oh, wow! That's cool. Why do people keep pets?Matt: I guess the most important thing is companionship, right? So there is always somebody there for you that will like you no matter what.Todd: Yeah, that's true. OK. Besides cats, dogs and fish, what are some other pets people keep?Matt: Well, I guess if you are Siegfried and Roy you can keep a tiger or lion. I guess all types of things don't they?Todd: Yeah.Matt: I mean, my friend has a snake. I don't know if you mention that snake, ferrets and insects, spiders...Todd: OK.Matt: All kinds of things.Todd: All right. Yeah, like there is so many. What are some costs associated with keeping a pet?Matt: Food is probably the biggest cost. But also if you keep the dog, particularly a dog in your house when they are puppies and we have a lot of puppies they'll chew up everything they can so we're constantly replacing shoes and you know, cleaning up pee from the carpet and things like that. It can be a hassle.Todd: Yeah, OK. Thanks a lot Matt. By the way, where are you from?Matt: I'm from the U.S.A., from Minnesota.

We’ve all seen it — maybe some of us have even fallen for the trick — you’re on an ecommerce site and a big “Wheel of Savings” pops up. This innocent-seeming discount offer, though, isn’t what it seems, and it’s doing damage to the end-user spinning the wheel, and the site the wheel pops up on. The world of malvertising and browser extensions has been causing headaches in the ecommerce world for years and brands are constantly looking for ways to fight back and regain control of their websites. Matt Gillis is helping with that mission. Matt is the CEO of clean.io, which offers real-time protection against malicious actors and code for some of the most-trafficked websites in the world. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matt takes us through some of the methods bad actors are using to install malicious code on ecommerce sites, and he gets into the nitty gritty of why browser extensions like Honey and Wikibuy are hurting brand bottom lines, and why those extensions are making marketing attribution nearly impossible. But he also offers some solutions, too, so that ecommerce brands can finally win back control of the user experience. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Good Guy or Bad Guy?: Traditionally, malvertising is done by bad actors who infiltrate websites and take over through ads. But in the world of ecommerce, the bad actors are actually manifesting in the form of Fortune 100 companies that profit from website extensions like Honey and Wikibuy, which disrupt the user experience of the customer on the original ecommerce site. Solving that problem is the challenge for ecommerce brands that want to take back control.Sneakily Effective: In the malvertising world, the bad actors are at the top of the marketing game. They can achieve a 100% click-through rate at little to no cost because they are using sly, untraceable strategies. Targeting and eliminating those malvertisers is critical in order to level the playing field for ecommerce marketers to have success moving forward.Last Line of Defense: Publishing platforms hold most of the responsibility for the end-user experience. Everybody has a role to play in minimizing the risk of malicious buyers or advertisers, but ultimately, the publisher is the last line of defense against malvertising moving into the user experience, and they should be held accountable.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder at mission.org. Today on the show we have Matt Gillis, the CEO at clean.io. Matt, welcome.Matt:Stephanie, thanks for having me. I'm excited.Stephanie:I am very excited to have you here. We were just talking about how cool your background is, and I think that's actually kind of a fun place to start of where you're at in the world. And tell me a bit about your background.Matt:Yeah. Hey, so I'm in Baltimore and we actually just took possession of this office in February, right before the pandemic. And so the irony is I've been here every day since the pandemic started pretty much.Stephanie:By yourself?Matt:But I'm by myself. So we have 4,000 square feet. We just did the mural right before the pandemic and no one on our team has been able to experience it pretty much. But yeah, cybersecurity company located in Baltimore, we're about 45 people, I guess you could say solving this problem of untrusted and malicious JavaScript that is ruining user experiences in revenue across the internet. That's us in a nutshell.Stephanie:Cool. Well, I am really excited to dive further into clean.io. Before we do that though, I was hoping you can kind of go through your background because I saw you've worked at places like AOL, you've been in publishing. You've been in ad space. Tell me a bit about what you did before you came to clean.io.Matt:So full disclosure, I'm old. And so I've been around a little bit. I've had some fun. But yeah, I think key things I've spent probably the last 20-ish or so years in a couple of different capacities. Right out of university, I started in the mobile industry and mobile at that time was just making phone calls, that's it. There wasn't even texting then.Matt:In fact, my job back in those days was I would stand on a golf course at a golf tournament and let people make free phone calls because that was the cool thing to do then. No one had cell phones and if they did, they were like those brick ones. You remember those ones that you couldn't fit in your pocket?Stephanie:Yeah. And you were the cool guy like, "I've got access to an awesome phone, anyone want in?"Matt:Yeah. And listen, men and women would come up to me and they'd be like, "Can I call back and check and see if I have any messages?" And so that was the cool thing to do then. I know it sounds so crazy that was a thing at some point, but yeah. So I worked at mobile operators in the early stages of my career.Matt:So I worked at Bell Mobility in Toronto, Canada. I'm from Toronto. And then I moved down here to work at Verizon Wireless. And at the end of my tenure at Bell Mobility and my tenure at Verizon, I was focused on some of the services that you live by on your cell phone today. So this was in kind of late '99 and then the early 2000s of things like video on demand on your phone, playing games on your phone, downloading ringtones on your phone, I'm sure you did that.Stephanie:Oh, ringtones, yeah [inaudible].Matt:They were, obviously a huge business at some point.Stephanie:Now if my phone rings I'm like, "Stop it, what are you doing? Who's calling me? Don't call me, text me."Matt:Put it on mute. Yes, exactly. So I was kind of part of the foundational days of things that you would do with your phone, before the iPhone. And then I went and took a swing at being an entrepreneur and joined a little small video game company. Our biggest game was Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? We did a lot of TV game shows. So we did, Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader? And things like that.Matt:So I kind of walked the mile as a publisher for a while and then Capcom, which is the Japanese video game company acquired us. So I ran their publishing business for a few years and I got to experience what it's like to be a publisher and how hard it is to make money.Matt:And that was kind of in those early days of the iPhone where I'd say to people, "You'll go and spend $5 on this latte, but you won't pay $5 for unlimited use of a game over a period of time." And this is back in 2008, 2009. And so we had a real struggle and people weren't wanting to pay for our games. They want them free and free became kind of the thing on the iPhone.Matt:And so recognizing that struggle, I actually joined this company called Millennial Media, which was one of the earliest mobile ads platforms for app developers, helping app developers make money with ads. Some of our biggest customers at the time were like Words with Friends, if you've played Words with Friends-Stephanie:Yes, I have.Matt:... ads in every game. So we were kind of one of the foundational tech partners with folks like Words with Friends and various other games across the internet and apps. Did that for eight years through an acquisition with Verizon and AOL. And then we acquired Yahoo. So I ran the publisher platforms business at the combined entity of those companies, which was awesome.Matt:And one of the biggest problems in my time over that period was this thing called malicious ads, or malvertising as they call it. You probably are familiar with when you're scrolling away on your phone and all of a sudden it redirects you and says, congratulations, you won an Amazon gift card. And you're like, "I didn't click anything." Or spin the wheel for your chance.Stephanie:Yeah. I did that once I fell for it. I was like, "Oh, I spun it." I couldn't help it.Matt:Never spin the wheel, Stephanie.Stephanie:I only did it once, but yeah, afterwards I'm like, "That was a bad call. Why did I do that?"Matt:Yeah. So it was a big problem in my past life. And there were a few folks that were solving this problem and two of them were folks that I had worked with at AOL. When I left, it was called Oath at the time, which is Verizon Media now.Matt:I went and had lunch with these guys and they told me that they were spinning up this company called Clean Creative and set to solve this problem of malvertising. And I didn't have a job and it was getting too cold to golf. And so I said, "Hey guys, can I be an intern?"Matt:And so I came and hung around for a couple of days a week. And I was like, "You guys are really onto something here because this was a massive problem in my prior life." And so I said, "Hey, can I have the keys?" And they obliged. And that's how I'm here, started as the CEO two years ago. And we've kind of been blowing it up ever since. That's awesome.Stephanie:Yeah, such a fun story. So what is your day to day look like now? And what's your best day in the office look like while you're there by yourself? Are you around skipping around bicycling around the big office? What is your days look like?Matt:I do pace and I get my steps in over there. Day-to-day, we're startup, so we're small. And so as any of your listeners would know at a startup you do everything, and you take the trash out and you sign big contracts, hopefully you raise money. You kind of do run the gamut. So it's a little bit of everything. If you've worked at a startup you know that generally speaking, there's epic highs and epic lows. And so you have those days where you are the king of the world and you and your team are high-fiving and celebrating. And that's a little different now because you got to do it all virtually.Matt:Part of being at a startup is you get that culture of everybody generally speaking, being in an office like this, but we're a widely distributed culture now. We were before the pandemic where we kind of had, I don't know, five or six or seven locations among all of our people, but now we have 40 locations. So it's just like any other gig except there's really no net underneath you. You're walking this tightrope and hopefully you get to the other side.Stephanie:Yes. I definitely feel that.Matt:It's fun though. Isn't that why you do it?Stephanie:I mean, yeah, it's definitely really fun. Other times you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm responsible for so many lives." And then other days it's like, "This is fun." So it's a good balance.Matt:Yeah. I mean, I won't lie. I had months of sleepless nights when we were raising money. We most recently raised our series A and we started raising it in March, right at the beginning of the pandemic. And yeah, all these people's jobs, for me, the pressure was on me to make sure that we could raise money and continue on this mission.Matt:The reality is, is the people behind the scenes are the ones that actually made my job easy because they're the ones that enabled me to go and tell the story of our massive revenue growth and our massive traction and our product market fit and all of that sort of stuff.Matt:Startups are hard, but there's a reason that many people once you leave the big company and you actually go and take your swing, that becomes the thing that you keep doing and doing and doing because you like having that euphoric feeling.Stephanie:Yeah. No, I definitely agree. And I mean, I think it's a good reminder too, as the CEO at any company to kind of get out of your way and hire a team that can support you and do things, but then let you do the higher level things like selling, raising money, such is a good point for, I think a lot of business owners who want to kind of stay attached to, "I've always been coding." Or, "I always did this part of the business." You need to step away and find people who can step in for you so you can go on to the next thing.Matt:Yeah, and focus on your strengths. Don't try and overcompensate and really... We did this thing called StrengthsFinder with our leadership team. And it was really about figuring out what are the strengths across this group of people that are practically leading the company. And you go, "Okay, well, I'm really good at this, this and this. And you're really good at this, this and this. Wow. We compliment each other. I should continue to keep doing this stuff. And boy, we should just let you handle all of this sort of stuff." So yeah, hire a diverse team and hire people that are way smarter than you and you'll be successful.Stephanie:So how have you seen the digital security landscape change? Maybe even over just the past year or two, what new things are popping up, what should e-commerce owners be aware of right now that maybe wasn't happening last year or two years ago?Matt:I would say that where we cut our teeth was in this malvertising space and what it is, is malicious JavaScript that's kind of being injected into the user experience through ads. And what we've seen is that the bad actors, the people that are doing it, are getting even more sophisticated over time. They have figured out how to get around the systems. They've figured out how to get around the checks and balances.Matt:And we kind of stumbled into this e-commerce world where we were protecting, we're protecting some of the biggest websites on the internet. There's seven million websites that run our code. Probably many of the websites that you go to everyday either to get your news or to read entertainment gossip, or that sort of stuff if you do.Stephanie:No.Matt:I'm not saying you do Stephanie, but we protect all of those sites; every single page view on those pages, we make sure that the user experience is protected and revenue's protected. And by the way, in that world, it's folks that I would say, delivering malicious JavaScript. What we started seeing in the e-commerce world is there's this whole phenomenon of what I would call untrusted JavaScript.Matt:Now in either case, the premise is you own your website. You should be able to control everything that executes on your website. You should be able to protect your user experience. You should be able to dictate your user experience because it's your website. On the malvertising world, what we saw happening was if folks had ads on their website, they had lost control of the user experience. They had lost control of revenue because any bad actor could just buy an ad and take over the user experience and get you to spin the wheel.Stephanie:Only once, but yes.Matt:Only once, but it happened. And so in the e-commerce world, what we've noticed is there's a lot of stuff happening on e-commerce sites, just like there is in any website that is without the permission or without the authorization of the person who owns the site. The biggest problem that we kind of dug in and gone to solve for is, if you ever heard of these things called Honey or Wikibuy?Stephanie:Yeah.Matt:So these are Chrome extension, Safari extensions, Firefox extensions. They sit resident on the user's device and Stephanie, when you're out shopping on your computer and you get to check out, Honey will pop up and say, "Hey, I've got coupons for you. Do you want them?" You as the user you're probably like, "Yeah, I'd love to get a discount. I'd love a better price, if I can get it without having to do any work." Honey does all the hard work for you.Matt:We think that's not really in the best interest of the merchants because they own their website and now someone is injecting code in and disrupting the user experience, disrupting your revenue. So just like it is in this malvertising world, the same phenomenon is happening over here. The difference is Honey is owned by PayPal. Wikibuy is owned by Capital One.Matt:So the folks that I would call "bad actors" in this world are actually fortune 100 companies. They're folks that you would expect to be able to trust. And what they're doing is they're actually injecting code in to disrupt the user experience and disrupt revenue. And so that's the problem that we've gone out and solved.Matt:We just launched our product that's called cleanCART. And what it is is it's a Shopify app and it gives Shopify merchants the ability to protect their carts at checkout and make sure that they can prevent this sort of code from disrupting user experiences in revenue. So it really is giving control of the websites back to the merchants.Stephanie:Oh, interesting. So when you implement that you just can't get coupons or are there other pieces that it kind of protects as well, or the user can't see coupons from a Honey or something, or are there other things that your app is also protecting against?Matt:So we're in, I would say the second inning of the baseball game. So early stages. We're really focused on to start is blocking the automation of these coupons. So we don't want to block you as a user going in and manually inserting the coupon. We think that's the intended use case. But what we think is unfair is that someone is standing beside you at checkout and handing you a mitt full of coupons and actually not even handing them to you, they're actually giving them and just scanning them all to make sure that they all have a chance to work.Matt:If you think about this analogy, the grocery store would never let someone come and stand beside the checkout and save you 30% off your grocery order while you're already ready to pay. And I think that's the phenomenon that we're trying to solve for in the earliest days, which is, let's prevent the automation from happening. Let's not prevent people from manually inserting coupons. Let's give control back to the merchants because it impacts them in so many different ways. Obviously, it impacts them from a revenue loss perspective.Matt:I talk to merchants every day. Many merchants are complaining that these injections are literally scraping and pulling 30% off of their cart value at checkout. So someone who had $100 cart, they go to checkout, Honey runs and it knocks their cart value from $100 to $70. That's kind of bad for the merchant, especially if that person was going to convert anyway.Matt:The other key thing is Honey and Wikibuy and these other discount extensions have made it really hard for merchants to have discounting strategies that they can track. And so what's happening is that promo codes are ending up in the wrong hands. It's creating an attribution nightmare for merchants where they think that this social media influencer or this Instagrammer, or this YouTuber is driving tons of sales and lo and behold, Honey has grabbed that coupon and is injecting it.Matt:And now every order that comes through where Honey was present on the page is applying that person's code. And so now the merchant not only has bad data that is going to ultimately drive their marketing decisions but now, they're also losing revenue and they're paying out affiliate fees to folks that generally didn't deserve that affiliate fee. So I think it's created a bit of a nightmare.Matt:And so, we felt this kind of pent up demand for this product. And that's exactly what's happened is that no one has solved it. We think we're first to market. And we think it's important that people are fighting for the merchants. There's been 10 years of growth in e-commerce over the last year. The pandemic driving a lot of that.Matt:And we think it's important that merchants really get control of their websites, get control of their margins, get control of their revenue and really get the right data to make the right data-based decisions of how they're going to run their marketing programs.Stephanie:Yes. I think that's a really cool story. You were just talking about how you were looking at a problem that people were complaining about, and then now you guys are like, "Well, let's solve it." Because I've read, I'm trying to think where this was, where they're talking about going to Reddit and looking at some of the threads of people talking about problems that keep occurring and occurring and how you could build businesses just based off Reddit threads. And you guys did that, just looking at problems with what merchants were struggling with. So a really cool example of how to build a business is look at all the problems that are going on and jump at solving it.Matt:Well, and I think the other key thing here is as you know is solving the problem, but also during that process of your hypothesis that you're going to develop of what you're trying to prove, it's you also need to prove that people pay for it. And that's, I think part of the foundation of what we've built here, obviously on the malvertising side, but also on the e-commerce side is it's a big enough problem. People need to protect user experiences.Matt:If you think about just in the internet in general, it's very expensive to create content. It's very expensive to drive traffic. And once you've done those two things, why would you leave it to chance that someone might come to your website and have a crappy user experience? Protect your user experience.Matt:It happened last week on the Harvard Crimson on the crimson.com where somebody was on Crimson and they got one of these redirect ads that took them to this landing page that said, "Hey, you're a Verizon customer click here and take the survey and answer these nine questions and you'll have a chance to win." And this user actually took to Twitter and said, "Hey @thecrimson, which is, I think their Twitter handle, you've got a crappy user experience. Why are you letting this happen?"Matt:I never even saw a reply from the Crimson. But when we did some investigation on what was going on, they don't even have protection on their website. So it almost feels irresponsible at this day and age to not be protecting your asset because your asset generally speaking, isn't your website, your asset is your users.Matt:And so protect your users, make them feel confident that when they come to your site, they're going to have a great experience. And so that's really what we've focused on is just delivering technology that solves a problem that people are willing to pay for. Because obviously without that, we don't have a business.Stephanie:So when thinking about like the Crimson example, that's all from a bad ad being run on their website, correct?Matt:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Stephanie:Someone was able to buy that ad unit have bad JavaScript, and then that's when they were sent to that Verizon survey. I'm I thinking about that, right?Matt:You're totally thinking about that right. And what's interesting about the thread is that when this woman went on to Twitter and said, "Hey, this is what happened. And here's a screenshot," there were a whole bunch of people that piled onto the thread of like, "Oh, here's what I think is happening." "Oh, you have a virus on your computer." Or, "Oh, you have a bad extension on your computer or whatever." Everybody had a hypothesis of what's happening.Matt:And so we actually went and captured the threat and reverse engineered it and said like, "Here's exactly what's happening." And yeah, it's all coming through ads in that case. And there's so many great things of the open programmatic ecosystem.Matt:So programmatic media being able to buy a single oppression at a time by single user real humans, real devices, real networks, like you know I'm having a one-to-one engagement with this person and in the malvertising world, that's a feeding ground for bad actors because they get to do the same thing.Matt:And quite frankly, they're better at it than any other advertiser out there because they're the ones who know how to pay 20 cents CPM and buy an ad and actually get 100% click-through as opposed to the rest of the world that's just hoping that they get a half a percent click-through rate. And so they figured out how to buy that ad, that ad renders on your device.Matt:And then usually it's like an onTouchEvent. So when you actually just touch the device, they put a transparent overlay on your device. And that turns into a click or they'll auto click something on your behalf, or however they decide to inject their technology. But yeah, it's as simple as that. And I think it's lucrative, otherwise-Stephanie:They wouldn't be doing it, yeah.Matt:What they do is they try to do it at the lowest possible level without getting caught. So if you think about sophisticated marketers, what do you do? Well, you pick the right users, you maybe frequency caps so that you don't lambaste them with ads. You want to hit them at the right time with the right message and all that sort of stuff.Matt:And so these bad actors have figured out how to very elegantly and in a sophisticated fashion, they'll hit you with that ad. But the reality is they'll probably frequency cap you to one so you can't reproduce the experience and that's how they evade getting caught in most cases.Stephanie:Yeah. Very interesting. I didn't understand the whole backend of how that works. I mean, I do spend a lot of time thinking about building incentives for advertisers because we build up our own ad networks to advertise our podcast and we bring on partners all the time.Stephanie:And it's really funny thinking through how to build incentives for especially newer advertisers when you might say something like, "Oh, we'll incentivize you based on a download." Then all of a sudden you're getting all these fake downloads. No, not downloads. We'll incentivize you based on consumption. Like, does someone listen to the episode? They wanted to hear it.Stephanie:And then you see instead of actually having good people come through and consume the episode, the advertiser will say, "Okay, I'll pay you to review the ad or review the podcast, which makes it show that you were consuming it because you had to for maybe a minute to then be able to review."Stephanie:And it's always interesting trying to figure out, I mean, and these people are not good actors maybe, I'm not really sure. But it's always very interesting thinking, how do you incentivize people to do the right thing and actually deliver and not try and always get around the rules and just meet a number which I'm sure a lot of the platforms deal with the same kind of thing, but-Matt:It's interesting you use the word incentivized, and that was a dirty word in the early days where most advertisers didn't feel that the word incentivize was a good user because they didn't truly have the intent to do the thing that you want because they were being paid or a bounty or whatever the thing is.Matt:I saw the evolution of incentivized in my mobile career where it became really hard to get people to consume video commercials, like 15, six second whatever that metric was. And in the games world, they figured out this thing and they actually rebranded it instead of calling it incentivized video, they actually called it rewarded video. And-Stephanie:I feel like that's a little more, I don't know.Matt:Well, listen, and so I talk about one of the apps that I love is this app called Candy Crush. And I've been playing candy crush for almost 10 years now, I think. And when's the last time you played the same game for 10 years? Like never?Stephanie:Yeah. That's impressive.Matt:But they've artfully integrated video into their app. And I think if you run out of lives, you can watch a 30 second spot that is unskippable. So you have to watch the whole thing. And then if you, do you get rewarded with that extra life or whatever it is, maybe a lollypop, I don't know. But yeah, so I think there's different ways to approach it. But you're right, usually when you figure out the bounty, everyone else figures out how to capitalize on the bounty.Matt:And I think the interesting thing with Honey and Wikibuy is they've figured out how to get paid for the bounty or get credit for the bounty when lo and behold, they didn't really do anything. All they did was they had code that was resident on the machine that allows them to kind of get credit for that user purchasing when I think it's questionable whether they had any influence on that.Stephanie:Yeah. I've kind of thought that too, when seeing different Instagrammers with their promo codes for e-commerce site. And I always thought like, "Oh, how does that attribution work?" Because I mean, she's sharing it here, but I'm sure it's very easy for someone who doesn't follow her to also find that code outside of a Honey, but just be like, send it to my friend, "Hey, use this code." They never even followed her and now, they've got 25% off or something. So it does seem like attribution can be tricky, even if someone's not using Honey. How do you think that world's changing right now to make it easier for merchants to track where their sales are actually coming from? It feels very messy.Matt:Oh, I agree. I think it's a total mess. That's why we focused on the automation because I think that's one of those low hanging fruit, but big problems. Honey will tell the world that they have 17 million or so users. I don't know if Wikibuy which is now called Capital One Shopping, I don't think they announced how many users they have. But what I can tell you is both of those companies are spending a tremendous amount of money acquiring new users.Matt:Every time I log into Twitter, usually the first ad that I get is from Honey. All throughout the Christmas season, the holiday season just recently Capital One which owns Wikibuy Capital One Shopping, they were running TV commercials for this product with Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta. So there's like a tremendous push for them to grow these user bases.Matt:In talking with merchants and we've got, I don't know, we've got maybe 25 merchants using our product right now. And we're in closed beta. That problem that you just mentioned, which is, "Hey, I worked with an Instagrammer and I gave them a code. And all of a sudden two days later, I've had a vitamin company tell me that story. I've had a sporting goods company tell me that story. I've had a toilet paper company tell me that story.Stephanie:They're using Instagrammers?Matt:They're using Instagrammers. They're using YouTubers. They're actually using podcasts as well.Stephanie:I mean, interesting to see how they're partnering on toilet paper.Matt:Because they're partnering for the audience on these podcasts and they're hoping that they can get that audience to find out about their product and again, then they're incentivizing them to come and become a customer. It's basically the same net story. The vitamin company told me they're like a supplement company. They partnered with one of the biggest triathletes in the world.Matt:Let's just say they had 50,000 or 100,000 followers, but you've got to imagine they're probably rabid followers. If you're into that, then that's probably the gold standard of who you would listen to. And that person did some blog posts and did some Instagram posts and posted their code and as soon as it happened, they saw a surge in sales attributed to that person.Matt:Now, the marketing person at the company was like, "Oh my gosh, we figured it out. We nailed this. We knew that people would be rabid about that person's content. We knew that person had so much influence to get people to come and buy." And then they're like, "Oh my God, it's Honey." Because literally they went from zero sales to 80% of their sales that had coupons was that person on Monday.Matt:I think it's a frustrating problem. And I think the sophisticated marketers have woken up and are like, "Man, we're bleeding money." One merchant told me that when they started kind of parsing out the attribution that Honey was costing them. They did about a million and a half in revenue online per month, so call it a $15 million business give or take. They believed that these promo code extensions were costing them about 150 grand a month, 10% their overall value.Stephanie:I mean, we just had a guest who they ranted about their hatred of Honey, I mean, even on the show. So I think it's maybe a couple episodes before maybe when yours is going to go out.Matt:Call me. We can help.Stephanie:Yeah, I'll send the link so you can hit him up.Matt:Absolutely.Stephanie:He was not a happy dude about Honey. But I guess when I think about promo codes, it kind of feels archaic to me. Maybe this is just a me thing, but it feels like where QR codes were where all of a sudden they're gone and you don't even think about them anymore. Promo codes kind of feel like that to me too of just, it feels like a manual old way of attributing things.Stephanie:How do you think about attribution when it comes to influencers and stuff or anyone, without having to use a code? Are you guys even thinking about a new way of doing things or do you hear of people trying new ways of attribution that isn't like I'm putting in a manual like Stephanie 20, to get my 20% off? Is there a new way of doing it?Matt:I mean, we're thinking through all those things. I think the challenge is specifically if you're using these one-to-many mediums. In a perfect world, I think you'd have a unique code for every user and so you'd have to authenticate. We'd know that that code went to you Stephanie and if you redeemed it, I would know that you actually bought something and you bought something because of this engagement that we had. I think in these one-to-many mediums it's, how else can you do it? And some of the challenges that the one-to-many mediums like think of YouTubers.Matt:One of the companies that we're working with has a problem where they have a very high dollar ticket item. Their item that they're selling is about 1,000 bucks. And obviously, if somebody grabs a code of 20% off that you're losing 200 bucks, it's a lot of money. Their problem was that they were doing YouTuber videos and they were publishing a code within the YouTube video to reach the audience. And for them, it was extreme sports, the audience that they were going after.Matt:Well, literally the next day, and I don't know if you know how Honey works. If you have a Honey on your machine, the very first thing that Honey does is it scrapes out anybody who manually puts a code in. So in order for Honey to be able to grab that code, it has to happen once where a real person saw the code and was motivated to go and type it in and buy.Matt:If that happened to me, if I got that code, I would go in and type it in. And if Honey were on my machine and then I hit okay, Honey will scrape that code out and now everybody who comes after me gets access to that code whether they saw that YouTube video or not.Matt:The problem for this company is spending a lot of money engaging with YouTubers and creating videos and obviously, doing the presentation layer of these offers. Well, once Honey gets a hold of the code... And what they've also found is that Honey and the other extensions, are not very merchant friendly. The relationship between Honey and these merchants is actually quite adversarial. And so it leaves them with no other option.Matt:I guess the two options: one, you just keep running your YouTube thing and you resign yourself that you're going to be paying out a 20% discount to everybody who comes and has Honey; which that stinks, that doesn't feel right or you need to reach out to the YouTuber. You need to recut the video. You need to recut the voiceover. You need to kill that code. You need to put a new code in. And so it's made this sort of marketing endeavor with YouTubers and Instagrammers and you name it very hard, because you're actually turning off codes.Matt:We saw one email which was interesting. I always say to people, let's remember we're all consumers too, you and I buy stuff on the internet, even though we're deeply entrenched in the businesses that we're running. I have Honey on my machine, so I can understand what that user behavior is, so that I can actually talk with merchants.Matt:One of the folks on our team bought a pair of shorts from one of these companies that advertises on Facebook and Instagram. And they were out of stock after he had ordered it, so they sent him an email. And they said, "Hey, listen, sorry you didn't have it but guess what, here's a code. You'll save X percent. But please, make sure you use it within the next 48 hours because Honey has been grabbing our codes and we're going to shut this code off."Matt:How can people market, if you constantly have to play whack-a-mole. And if you now think of the analogy, it's back to what we do in the malvertising side. If you aren't going to solve things with software, you're basically playing this long cat and mouse game that you won't win.Stephanie:I mean, that's why I think about merchants turning on and off codes.Matt:It's a nightmare.Stephanie:We were handing out swag and me just trying to... I had unique links that could work for more than one person and just thinking, "That could be tricky and go really bad." But I guess that's why I just think codes just feel, like I said, a little bit archaic. Why can't I just go to a YouTube video?Stephanie:I mean, the internet knows so much about me and where I'm at anyways. It should say, "Hey, Stephanie watched Matt's video where he was talking about this toilet paper." And then all of a sudden she's at our website, you can say, "Stephanie, a 20% coupon awaits you when you go here."Stephanie:And then when I get there it should know who I am and then be like, "Your coupons applied. And it will be applied for the next three days on this website or whatever, because I know where you've been and what you saw and where exactly you came from." Why can't it just work?Matt:I mean, I wish it was all that simple. Listen, we are taking obviously, technology solution to what we think is a longstanding and challenging problem. And in the malvertising world, the people in ad operations were literally playing whack-a-mole. Like, "Let's figure out where this bad ad came from." "Turn that demand source off." Or, "Turn that buyer off." And guess what, the bad actors, they just pop up again.Matt:And so we believe that, and I've seen and talked to merchants who are like, "Listen, here's how I solved the Honey problem." And they're like, "We actually created promo codes for 10% off, but the promo code was Honey is stealing your data."Matt:Because if you use Honey, you know that when Honey pops up it'll actually tell you the codes that it's implementing. They went on a mission to discredit and put the fear of God in their buyers that Honey was doing... They were like, "Honey is doing nefarious things with your data." And guess what, Honey D listed them as [inaudible].Stephanie:Well, there you go. Now, you know how to do it, I guess.Matt:The irony is, is that was three months ago that I talked to that merchant. And yesterday they cameback in and said, "Listen, we have a problem again."Stephanie:Honey added us again.Matt:No, this time they've got a Wikibuy problem. The problem is going to be never-ending, I think. Ultimately, we're hopefully going to give e-commerce companies the tools that they need to go out and be able to operate their business and focus their time on the things that really matter, in my mind, which is driving incremental revenue; not playing whack-a-mole with your promo codes and having to go recut YouTube videos. Hopefully, that's one of the big things that we help solve for.Stephanie:That's cool. I mean, I do like the idea of that one merchant you were mentioning where they said, "If you act within the next 48 hours or whatever, it'll only lasts this long." And I just had a guest yesterday who said that. I think it was either Burger King or McDonald's made it so if you're within 20 feet or something of a McDonald's they would send you a code and say, "You have five minutes to get to a burger King to get a free burger or something."Stephanie:And I'm like, "That's interesting." That's a good way to make people act quickly if you know something's expiring, I know I act a lot quicker. But I mean, of course, solve the problem that's number one. But I do think that's an interesting marketing tactic too.Matt:And make it measurable. I think that's the key thing is that... I often say, "What gets measured gets managed." And so hopefully, what we're doing is we're taking one of the things out of the equation that is making measurement really challenging for merchants. Again, using the triathlete example, yes, the marketer was high-fiving the rest of their team going, "We finally solved this." And then when they actually looked at the data they were like, "Damn it. I guess we got to go back to the drawing board."Stephanie:It's also just so tricky too, knowing how much of those people would have bought otherwise or not. So even looking and being like, wow, we have all this attributed to this one promo code and maybe it was because of Honey. But how many of those people would have bought if there wasn't some promo in there? It's just hard to know.Matt:We're solving that problem. We're giving merchants some deep analytics on exactly what's happening on their site, because we think there's a blind spot there where they don't know. For instance, how many users actually came to your site that actually had an injection capability? One of the extensions of Honey, Wikibuy, Piggy, Amazon Assistant, you name it. So we give them that lens.Matt:And then we give them the lens of, what were all the promo codes that they tried to inject? What was the most popular promo code? And stack rank those things and then going deeper down to conversion rate. And guess what, what we're seeing in these early days is that when you block Honey and Wikibuy at checkout, the vast majority of users actually still convert.Matt:And so that to me is the icing on the cake which is, guess what, you take control back of your website. You take control of your margins. You take control of your revenue. You now have the data you need to be able to go out and drive incremental sales. We think that's pretty powerful.Stephanie:I mean, that makes sense. I've heard a couple of times that also, discounts don't matter as much as you would think. I think they were talking about, they did a study between 10% off and 20% off. And actually, they were kind of the same when it came to consumer happiness. And what can be worse though, is if someone has the ability to go in and put a promo code in or something and then it doesn't work.Stephanie:I don't know if you remember those days of just going to the internet promo code for macys.com and trying out 10 different promo codes and all of them failing. I was way more unhappy then, than just not having one at all, just buying at full value.Matt:Let me tell you the opposite of that which is the worst-case scenario, in one of our merchants experience and that's why they're using our software. They're in the home interior space, so they do drapes and carpets and wallpaper and all that sort of stuff. And they were trying to build favor with interior designers because they wanted interior designers to know their site and know their stuff and all that sort of stuff. And so they did a very exclusive but unfortunately, a promo code that Honey got ahold of that gave interior designers 50% off.Matt:Well, lo and behold, as soon as one designer used that code and also had Honey on the machine, that code then got swept up in the Honey and everybody, every order that had Honey was now getting 50% off. Their customer service nightmare was that they couldn't afford to give every consumer 50% off, so they actually had to cancel orders; believe it or not.Matt:They called customers and said, "We can't honor your order with that coupon because that coupon was not intended for you." Created a customer service nightmare for them. And that's what they want to do is, they want to control their user experience. They want to control their revenue and their margins.Stephanie:Oh my gosh, that's horrible.Matt:Out of control. But think of that disaster of having to call someone and say, "Hey, I know you wanted to spend $500 with me, but only pay me 250 bucks. I can't give you 50 off but I can give you like 15 off, that's kind of what you were probably entitled to." So anyways, just trying to get control back in these merchants hands and let them control their destiny.Stephanie:I love that. When thinking about back to the now advertising piece, how much do you think it's on the publishing platforms? Is it their responsibility to make sure that they continue to increase their efforts to make sure bad actors aren't out there anymore?Stephanie:I mean, I know they're probably doing a lot. A lot of people like to hate on the publishing platforms and they want them to always do more and more and more. Is it maybe on them or maybe not on them anymore to continue to try and track those bad actors, who like you said are kind of popping up here and then they shut down and then open up a new account and do one off things and then shut down again. How should we think about leaning on the platforms like that?Matt:Well, I say to folks, the value chain in that industry is actually quite wide. And so from the bad actor who's putting their hands on the keyboards to the consumer, there's a whole bunch of players in the middle. I think it's on everybody to really have defenses in place and to make sure that they're protecting...Matt:So if you're at the front end, if you own the demand side platform that the bad actor's using, you need to have your own checks and balances to make sure that you're not bringing in malicious buyers. But all through that value chain, the onus is on everybody. But at the end of the day what I say is, the only person that can be responsible to that end user, is the publisher.Matt:Pick your publisher, if you are Fox News or you're the New York Post or you're the Washington Post, you're the one that has that ultimate relationship with Jenny or Johnny consumer who is surfing your site and consuming content. So you're the last line of defense. You're the one that created the site. You're the one that drove the traffic. You're the one that is using ads to monetize your traffic. It's really on you I think, ultimately.Matt:Now the publishers, all those folks that I named and there's millions of them, they all want to look upstream and they should. And they should hold everybody accountable upstream. But I think they're the ones that are really the that last line of defense.Matt:Because if you go to one of these sites and you have a crappy experience, you don't really care that it came through an ad. Like the woman at Harvard Crimson last week, she didn't know the origins of why it happened. And here's the other crazy thing, she knew that when she went to the Crimson, she was delivered a crappy experience.Matt:Now, the crazy part. First time we've ever done it, we actually did a private webinar with the end user because we wanted to explain to her here's exactly what's happening. She told us this story, she said, "Listen, I use ad block." And obviously, the risk to publishers are, if you don't create great experiences, your users are going to start using ad block.Matt:What she said was, in the desire to get real news and in the desire to really understand what's going on in the world and in the desire to actually make sure that real news publishers are actually getting compensated, she turned her ad block off and this is what happened.Matt:So shame on the Crimson for not delivering a great experience, because guess what? Now that user's like, "I'm not turning ad block off the next time I come to your site. You're not going to get paid for the traffic that I'm going to generate." So again, it really goes back to the publishers, the onus is on them.Stephanie:And thankfully, I think there is like new technologies popping up that maybe we'll be able to enable them or even just thinking about implementing. I mean, I've seen some advertisers looking into blockchain and having that as being kind of like a more source of truth to be able to know a one-to-one relationship and knowing who's behind... You don't know exactly who's behind what, but if you have it in a way where they sign up and they can't just start creating a million different accounts because they've got their one single one that they can go off of, it seems like there's a lot of ways that it can improve over the next couple of years that maybe hasn't been so easy the past decade or so.Matt:I agree. Obviously, there's industry bodies all trying to figure this out together. There's companies like us who are innovating and coming up with new and unique techniques to block these sorts of nefarious actors. I do think the biggest and most important thing is to recognize that the bad actors aren't just sitting still waiting for somebody to solve this problem. They're innovating honestly, a more rapid rate than many of the industry leaders that you would expect that have hundreds or thousands of people trying to solve this problem. Bad actors unfortunately, are innovating at quite a rapid pace.Matt:So the problem I think is going to evolve and change. We've seen it evolve to not just being ads but obviously, compromised Chrome extensions that just seems to be a great vector. And so I think you're going to see the problem move around and especially, if there's a lot of money in it. If there's ways for these guys to make money, you're going to see them salivate with... You're going to put up this defense and they're going to figure out this way to get around it.Matt:And there's so many different browser types. There's so many different machines. There's security flaws. There's zero-day. There's so many ways for these guys to actually buy and target, to only focus on iOS 13 and below and blah, blah, blah to reach their audience.Stephanie:So tricky. Hopefully, it'll get solved over the next decade. Cool. Well, with a couple minutes left, let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Matt?Matt:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. First the harder one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Matt:Listen, I think it's been the gold rush for e-commerce merchants over the last year. In many cases I talk to merchants, they're like, "It was raining money last year." Sales were up five X, 10 X, who knows. I think the next year is going to be that year where folks actually look to efficiency, and they look to figure out where there are holes in the boat that they haven't had to look before.Matt:And I think that plays to our product because I think in many cases when it's raining money, you almost turn a blind eye to some of these sorts of things. But I think now folks are like, "Listen, if I can be more efficient. If I can take control of my revenue and my margins, I'm going to do that."Matt:So I think that's probably, this is the year of people now are catching their breath and they've figured out their distribution and they've figured out their fulfillment and their warehousing and all that sort of stuff and the panic that they had to do to keep up with the pandemic growth. Now, I think it's a deep breath of like, "Okay. Now, let's look at the math."Stephanie:Yeah. I agree, that's a good one. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Matt:What one thing do I not understand. I think the affiliate landscape is complex. I think there are a lot of legacy ways in which people have calculated incrementality and I'm not sure if they're all believable. And I hear a lot of feedback from merchants where it's kind of like they just brush it under the rug and they're like, "I know I'm probably paying for stuff that I didn't really get, but let's just let it go." I think every percentage point matters. That ecosystem, because I hear there's good guys and there's bad guys and I'd love to really dig deeper on that. And I think that's a big opportunity for us as a company.Stephanie:That's a good one. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Matt:Wow. The nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me.Stephanie:I like to go deep.Matt:Yeah. That's a deep question. I think I've been fortunate throughout my whole career in that, I have been given opportunities that I probably wasn't ready for. And by the way, I had never been a CEO before I was at this company. And so, who knew that I'd be able to do it.Matt:But I think it actually starts way back to when I first graduated and I was seeking my first job. And I had a mentor that took a risk on me and gave me my shot. And I worked my butt off and hopefully that translated and he and she felt great about what I was doing. So I think the nicest thing, I've just been given opportunities that I don't think I deserved and hopefully I earned that respect and trust over time.Stephanie:That's a good answer. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Matt:Wow. This lightning round is hard.Stephanie:Good. Needs to be.Matt:If I were to have a podcast. I love gadgets. I'm one of those guys that buys the infomercial type stuff. I bought one of those Rotisserie Showtime girls 20 years ago, I still use it.Stephanie:Worth it.Matt:Maybe it could be interviewing people who've built made for TV products and really understanding the backstories behind how they came up with the idea and how successful they were and God knows how much money we all made them.Stephanie:That's good. We had Kevin Harrington on the show, he was the original OG shark in Shark Tank. He basically made the infomercial. And it was very interesting hearing his perspective of how it started, where it's at now and Shark Tank.Matt:I'm fascinated by that ecosystem, it's super cool. And by the way, I always do buy one of those stupid things for my wife for Christmas and she hates me for doing it because she's like, "You're just burning money."Stephanie:I had fun buying it and watching the infomercial today.Matt:Believe it or not, one of my coworkers gave me a Squatty Potty for Christmas.Stephanie:I actually feel like those have good value though, the science is there. It's just a weird thing to buy your wife, if you got that for her. Someone gave it to you, got it.Matt:I was given it, by one of my coworkers, "By the way it works."Stephanie:And their marketing, I think that's the Harmon Brothers who did their marketing with the whole unicorn and they did the Poo-Pourri thing.Matt:Oh yeah, it's super cool. I love those kind of gadgets.Stephanie:That's a good one. I would listen to that show. All right. And then the last one, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Matt:Well, on my Netflix queue, I think I've got three episodes left on the Queen's Gambit.Stephanie:Love that show. That was a good one.Matt:I'm a documentary guy. I actually will tell you that I've been kind of hooked on HBO Max for a little bit. And I just finished the Tiger Woods documentary last night, which was fascinating. Nothing that you hadn't been told before. This guy through adversity has come back multiple times; knee surgeries, winning on a broken leg. So I'm into those sorts of stories. One of my guilty pleasures is The Bachelor, so it's on my DVR. I'm playing catch up on that.Stephanie:That's great.Matt:I love reality TV and that sort of stuff.Stephanie:I like where your head's at, me too. Well, Matt, this has been a very fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and clean.io?Matt:So you can find me at matt@clean.io. So if you want to send me an email, obviously happy to help you guys in any of your challenges and would love to hear your challenges if they're similar or if they're different than ones that we're solving for. Hit me on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. And our company website is clean.io.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us.Matt:Thanks Stephanie. Thanks for having me.

How you terminate an employee can make the difference between a graceful transition to avoidable negative outcomes like a dramatic exit or even a lawsuit. We gathered a panel of experts and asked them - is there a "right way" to fire an employee? We would like to thank our guests for this episode: Amr Shabaik, Civil Rights Managing Attorney with CAIR Los AngelesPatty Cuthill, Director of People & Culture with NextLevel InternetAnitra Negrete, Director of Human Resources with Leaselabs by RealPageTadessa Williams, Director of Human Resources in Houston, TX Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Look, the other person you’re firing, they’re a human being. PATTI: Well, you’re miserable. They’re probably pretty miserable, too. NASIR: Even if you have a script, it’s going to go off-script. PATTI: You want to pull the band-aid off right away. MATT: But there is some finesse to it. It’s not like you’re a robot. NASIR: You really have to treat these people with dignity and respect. NASIR: You have every right to terminate this employee. They may be surprised at first, but not secondarily. There are a couple of things that happens when you have someone else in the room. NASIR:All right. We’re here to talk about how to fire somebody. In fact, we’re going to do something different today. We’re going to bring someone in – onto the podcast – and fire them live on national podcast… No, we’re not doing that, but we are doing something different today. Right, Matt? MATT: Yeah. You know, we obviously have our input from the perspective of attorneys, but we’re not always the ones that are terminating people. Oftentimes, with our clients, there’s people within the company that are handling the terminations, so we figured it would be best to get first-hand experience from, well, four individuals that have terminated people ranging from – what do you think? – like, five years to fifteen years. It’s going to be some valuable information for any business owner. NASIR: I think, put together, literally decades of experience – not including hours. And so, I don’t know. Let’s take a listen and introduce some of our guests. There’s four of them – three are HR professionals and one employment law attorney. Here they are! ANITRA: So, I’ve been in human resources going on now 20-plus years. AMR: I practiced employment law for the past six years before starting my current position at CAIR LA which I started sometime in late 2019. PATTI: Well, I’ve been in the HR field – human resources field – for I think over 15 years now. TADESSA: I’ve been their director for 11 years. Prior to that, I have a fairly extensive background in HR consulting, specifically working with professional employer organizations. NASIR: So, I’ll tell you, these people are across the map. What I find interesting is that basically they’re from two states, I should say – Texas and California. The Texas perspective, the California perspective, you can very easily see the difference. Luckily, you know, Matt and I – you obviously live in California, and I live in Texas. Obviously, we practice in both states – our firm – but it’s good to have that kind of dichotomy, don’t you think? MATT: Oh, yeah, definitely. As listeners will hear during the recordings we’re playing, it’s very different in terms of employee protections in California versus Texas. I guess, for those that are multi-jurisdictional, maybe they’ve encountered it but, for those contained within one of those two states – or even another state – there might be some surprising information that they’ll be hearing from these individuals. NASIR: Right. Even though they had different perspectives, I think they all had a common theme of how to approach a termination, and I think this is something that we preach quite a bit as well. It’s like, “Look, the other person you’re firing, they’re a human being.” At the same time though, they had different kind of subtle perspectives on it.

Another week and another fun 'sode for your headtop. This week we cover some shoes made from materials that were in space, Aime Leon Dore flipping the script with a sneaker release, and lots of playoff basketball talk. Then, our guest, Matt Oh, who drops some bars to get us going, gets run through 21 Guestions, and then we bring back How Much Izzat for another spin. After that, Matt tells us the story of his experience designing, marketing, and launching a sneaker collaboration with an unlikely brand. You're going to love this story, and you won't even need a premium membership to hear it! Follow our guest at: @MattOhMTL   Follow us at: @CanadaGotSole @MisterQMart @Jo_Doooney @LDoggyStyles  www.CanadaGotSole.caFacebook.com/groups/CGS.TALK

Sometimes an opportunity comes along that’s too good to pass up. For Matt Hulett, that happened when a friend approached him about a job at Rosetta Stone. The famous language-learning company was stuck in the analog world and they wanted Matt to be the guy to bring them into the digital future. It was no small feat, but Rosetta Stone has made progress on the digital transformation and Ecommerce journey, including introducing a subscription model and overhauling its tech stack and app. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matt discusses the challenges of transforming a world-famous brand, including how he chose a free-trial subscription model over going freemium, what it was like to achieve buy-in from investors, and the future of Ecommerce and why he thinks social selling still hasn’t reached its full potential.   3 Takeaways: Even the most well-known brands need to earn their stripes when entering a new space. When a previously offline product starts playing in the digital world, it has to prove to customers that their investment in this new space is worth it AR and VR are tools that Ecommerce platforms will be exploring more in the coming years. If you can provide a more immersive experience, you differentiate yourself from the competition and create more value to your customers Stay true to the brand and don’t try to compete on business models that don’t fit For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce, this is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host. Today, we're going on a digital transformation journey. Matt, how's it going? Matt: Oh, really good. A little cooped up here like we all are, but I'm hanging in there. How are you doing? Stephanie: I'm doing well. Yeah, same hot, very hot. It's 92 here and the places in Silicon Valley usually don't have air conditioning so just a little sweaty in the studio. Stephanie: So I must admit, I have not checked in on Rosetta Stone in a while and when I started browsing through you guys' website, I was like, "Whoa, you all have come a long way from CD-ROMs and everything that I was used to when I was growing up and thought of Rosetta Stone." So I'd love to hear a little bit about what brought you to Rosetta Stone and your background before you joined. Matt: Yeah. It's interesting, just before I dive in, it's rare to join a company where everyone knows your brand and your product like just about everyone in the United States does Rosetta Stone. Matt: And so actually, it's an interesting story because there's not many ed tech companies that are a public companies, you could count them on your hand and the company has been a public company for over 10 years. Matt: It's been around for 27 years and it's a really interesting backstory on how the company was founded and so some of that came into play with what got me attracted to the business. Matt: So a friend of mine who's a recruiter talked to me about this opportunity and I typically do restarts, pivots as they are [crosstalk] for startups. Matt: And even the startups that I join are typically pivots. So there's kind of this pivot transformation story that typically is a draw for me for whatever weird reason why I attracted to these things and when he said, "Oh, it's Rosetta Stone." Matt: I was like, "Oh, the CD-ROM company, the yellow box." I was like, "Yeah, but they're trying to be digital." I'm like, "They're not digital yet?" Matt: And so the draw for me was typically, I take on jobs and assignments that are very difficult where I have to either completely change the strategy or get new financing on a new idea. Matt: There's generally something really, really wrong and Rosetta Stone was so intriguing to me on the surface for the intellectual reasons why they brand the product, people love it. Matt: It's not one of those iconic brands that people are afraid of. It's not like saying, "Matt, do you want to restart Myspace? I was like, "Oh my God, it's Rosetta Stone, of course." Stephanie: That's your next project. Myspace. Matt: Yeah. Stephanie: Just bring it back. Matt: Making it great again. Too soon. But what personally drew me, that's kind of the intellectual business level, what personally drew me into the company was and is the fact that I'm dyslexic, and a third of the revenue for Rosetta Stone is actually one of the fastest growing. Matt: We sell software into K-12 schools primarily in United States that help kids learn how to read, better learn how to read which is a problem. I've seen my own youngest son struggle with his dyslexia as well. Matt: And so on a personal level, it's very emotional when you can kind of tie that emotional tie to a company to its mission and vision. It's really intriguing. So it's been one of the best career decisions I've ever made. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. Were there any universal truth that you discovered as you are kind of pivoting from different companies and trying out different roles and turning them around? Was there anything like yeah, universal truths that you saw while doing that? Matt: Well, that's a great question. Yeah, a couple things. One is it's so crazy to me, when I step into a company how basically from week one, maybe day one, no one really understands how the business works, like truly understands it. Matt: The key insight, what makes the business special, what can you do to apply capital or a time or attention to improve your strategy or your outcomes? It's just so, it's so weird when you go to a business that's operating, and maybe these are the only businesses I look at where it's not quite tight inside around the strategy and what makes the kind of the economic engine run. I think that's the biggest one that I see off the top of my head. Stephanie: Yeah, that's interesting. I can definitely see a lot of companies struggling there especially as they grow bigger and they have many business units and everyone's kind of chasing a different path, I can see people losing sight of what's important and what's actually driving this business like you're talking about and making it profitable or maybe it's not, but it's the lost leader, something that we still need. So yeah, that's really interesting. Stephanie: So when you joined Rosetta Stone, it hadn't been digital. I mean, only a few years, right? I think it stopped, maybe it didn't stop doing CDs, but it went online. Wasn't it in 2013? Matt: Yeah, I would say it was like half digital. What that means is we were selling one of the most expensive products in the App Store at the time and we didn't really have the concept of really effective sales funnels, a well thought out pricing and packaging strategy based on the type of customers that we're going after. Matt: We didn't have a lot of mobile native features and capability. So I would say it was kind of a port of the CD product in the mobile environment and that was kind of the approach. Matt: And also the approach was really not to focus on the consumer business. So not only did we make this kind of business model and digital transformation move, but also when I came into the business, the big focus was for the language side of the business was to focus on enterprise customers. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Matt: I thought that was actually the wrong move because enterprise is difficult, it's a smaller market, yet consumers where everyone knows Rosetta Stone, everyone likes the product. They actually remember the CD products in many cases and want to use them again, but they want to use them on your phone. Matt: So I thought, "Well heck, everyone knows who I am from a brand awareness perspective, I'll have an easier time deploying less capital against the consumer space and enterprise space." So there was not only just a business model shift, but also a strategy shift. Stephanie: Did you end up sticking with that business model shift to focus on enterprises or did you kind of make it a mix of 50/50? Matt: Oh, good question. So it is about 50/50 today, although consumers now are growing fast. I mean, we're a public company so I can only speak to our public company numbers, but in Q4 of last year, we grew the consumer business about 20% year over year and this is from a business step was growing at single digit. Matt: And then our last reporting earnings quarter, we grew the consumer business around 40% year to year and the enterprise business has struggled more primarily because of the C-19 impacts this year because obviously, we're in a never before seen macro economic headwind, but generally, it's the right decision to make and I view the enterprise business as more of an extension of what we want to do for all adult learners versus creating as a separate entity. Matt: That's a long answer to say consumer turned out to be the right move. It was not clear when I joined the company that even joining Rosetta Stone was a smart move. Matt: I had a lot of folks that I know, acquaintances more so than friends say, "Good luck. There's a lot of error in this company." And I just think it's just a really exciting problem and it's a ... Sorry to keep going because I've had maybe 80 cups of coffee today and just, I don't know. Stephanie: No, keep it up. Matt: It's like the two big verticals that are the most expensive that increased their prices to consumers over the last 50 years are healthcare and education and they have the lowest penetration of digital, and like, "Well, those are hard problems to solve. Why wouldn't you want to be involved?" So anyways, I think it's really fun. Stephanie: Yeah, that's fascinating. So when you came in, what were expectations for your role? What did people want you to do? Did you have a 90-day plan? How did that look? Matt: Oh yeah, if anyone thinks these are scripted questions, these are not scripted questions. These are very good questions. So during the interview process and I'm sure you've had this experience before, when you meet with somebody in a company, you're like, "I'm going to do whatever it takes to get this job." Stephanie: Yup. Matt: And I had one of those experiences with Rosetta Stone. I knew I wanted this job and so I came into maybe the first or second interview with a 90-day plan before I even started, this is the first or second interview. Matt: And the 90-day plan did change slightly because then I knew a little something, but I've done enough of these transformation projects, these pivots where I knew there's these basic building blocks in a format, I have a toolbox of things that I do that really didn't change. Matt: The inevitable strategy didn't know before I started, I didn't know the team members, were they the right fit or not, I didn't know any of that, but the basic building blocks I definitely put together. Stephanie: Got it. So what was on your roadmap, did you have to think about how to re-platform to support your commerce journey and shifting into enterprise and then consumer? What was on that plan that you laid out? Matt: Yeah, and I kind of learned some of this years ago when I was ... Sometimes I think my best work, I can't speak for you or anybody else, but my best work is when I'm completely ignorant of the challenges in front of me and so when I was younger, I worked for ... Well, actually, we sold our company to Macromedia and they had a division called Shockwave. Matt: And Macromedia at that point was not bought by Adobe, and this is Web 1.0 bubble, so I'm dating myself which is not legal in Washington State and these jokes have all jail time. Stephanie: [crosstalk] get us in trouble. Matt: I know. And so we step back through that experience and I learned a lot from the Macromedia Adobe kind of M&A folks about how to approach a problem. And that plus some other work experience over time really got me to the point of thinking through things from I call it the insight, the math in the heart. Matt: And no one framed it that way to me, but that's kind of how I framed it and so when I think about the insight, I think about the addressable market, the position that we are in the marketplace, so supplier's demand competitors. Matt: Then I think about what value we're driving to consumers, what value are you driving to your suppliers if you have them. And then what are the decisions you're going to make based on the strategy that you're laying out for the best outcome? Matt: So you want to grow market share, you want to grow revenue share. Do you not have enough capital? Do you actually need to raise capital and buy companies in order to get size and scale that's the outcome? Matt: So it's kind of a process that I've done over time and I want you to figure all that out, and it takes a while, maybe 90 days, maybe a little bit more, then it's really like how do you put a process together and dashboard is a little trite, but how do you actually run the business so you understand what things are working, the unit economics, what key layers of the business are you looking at, and then figure out an organization to support that and then you find the right team. Matt: And it sounds kind of exhaustive in terms of an answer, but I think too many people come in situations and they say, "Okay, I started this job, I got to restart it. What's my team look like?" Matt: And it's always I think the tail wagging the proverbial pivot dog and I typically, you can find startup people that are good at startups and sometimes, you find startup people that are good at later stage. Matt: You can find every dynamic possible, but until you do the work on, "I need this type of person for this type of growth stage, it's the right person the right time." Matt: If you don't do the work upfront, then you end up having a team that isn't the right team for the outcome that you want. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I've heard ... I forgot who said that startup advice where a lot of startups especially around here, are looking to hire that VIP level person, you have to pay a bunch of money to and someone was making the point of like, "Well, will they help you right now where you're at?" Stephanie: And it's okay to kind of grow out of people, but it's not okay to hire someone who's way above that actually can't get their hands dirty and do the work of what needs to be done right now. Matt: That's right. There's lots of people that have different approaches. I actually like to be pretty data driven in terms of how I think about people so I use like employee satisfaction studies and I use different personality profile tests. Matt: Obviously, you're not trying to like ... Hopefully, no one is like applying an AI filter looking at my reactions on this live video, but you can go overboard with data, but I do feel like you need to get the right alchemy talent for your team. Matt: And I've made mistakes where you have that senior person that doesn't want to get their hands dirty when you're like, "Look, I'm in build mode, I'm painting the fence, and I'm the CEO and I'm painting the fence and then I'm talking to the neighbors and driving Uber ..." Matt: The alchemy of that is hard to do, but that's a long winded answer to say there's there's a process and I think it's figuring out what's special about your company, how do you improve it, how do you run it? How did the inputs become the outputs and then what team is required for that? Stephanie: Yeah, very cool. So with the company having to shift as they did to go online and create mobile experiences, what kind of challenges did you see come up when you guys were going through that shift? Matt: Yeah, so there's multiple. So I always think about kind of the four constituents in most businesses, its investors, its customers, it's your internal employees and society. Matt: Not in that order. The order depends on lots of different things and so when I kind of checked down all those boxes, I think the big one, the first one I pick is investors because you're having to explain a model where the CD is purchased up front, it's very expensive versus you don't get all the revenue upfront, you amateurize that revenue and recognize it over 12, 24 whatever terms of the span of the subscription. Matt: So it's a change in terms of how you're reporting revenue, explain it in a consistent way, explaining the new metrics of subscription is challenged one I think from an investor perspective explaining why we have a language business, the Lexia business that I mentioned that focused on literacy is a 20 to 25% growth business, it's growing pretty nicely and language was declining. Matt: So then explaining to investors why do you still have this business and why are you changing the direction from enterprise to consumer, I think for employees. Matt: I always like to think through the employee piece, get the employee piece right, you can do anything and so getting the employees reason to believe, I was the first president to actually run the language business. Matt: It had multiple owners of the P&L and I was the first person probably since the CEO, we had one CEO that that started Rosetta Stone and took it public 20 plus years ago. Matt: I was the first single leader to ... I also tried creating a reason to believe a compelling vision, mission and culture and then when I think through kind of the customer piece, it wasn't as hard to be honest because there was so much brand equity that was good brand equity that doing little bit of things in a way that was kind of planful and data driven actually generated a lot of great outpouring of support. Matt: So the customer side of what we were doing wasn't as difficult as I would have thought and we also had an enterprise business that had already integrated things like digital tutoring with the software and demanding Fortune 500 companies. Matt: So there was some DNA in the company where we knew, "Boy, you can earn every interaction with every interaction." So that was that piece and then later, I started building more hooks into society as part of that and so I kind of view it as a self-fulfilling positive effect of you take care of your employees, they take care of your customers, the investors get great outcomes, and society benefits and you keep kind of turning this crank and you start getting much more reflective about it. Matt: And it does have, it does pay off. It takes I think, in general, I think people brag about how fast they can turn around companies. I don't know why people brag about that. Matt: I don't know, my experience is two years and taking a business from bad to like growing, at least, believing in itself is very hard and so I look at those four factors and I think the society piece is one that's super important that a lot of companies pay lip service to and there's a lot of discussion especially in Silicon Valley about some large companies that are controversial there. Matt: But I'll give you a for instance why if you can tie together the vision, mission, culture values to society, how that's self-reinforcing, we had a obviously horrible global pandemic that we're still pulling ourselves out of and everyone's kind of living through this experience at the same time. Matt: And we basically took just two days to decide that we're going to give away our software for free for three months for students. And we run a current business and selling software to enterprises and adults and we said, "You know what? We know that parents are actually going through hell because there's kind of a make your own adventure right now and schooling." Matt: [crosstalk] and I can feel it myself and we are like, "Oh my God, this is so stressful and the anxiety I heard from our own employees about it was overwhelming and I'm asking them to work harder." Matt: And so we said, "You know what? We're going to give away three months subscription and we're going to just do it and you just have to ... The parents have to put their email address in the school and that's it." Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's awesome. Matt: And we're not a free ... We're a paid subscription product. We're not, there are other competitors that have a freemium model and as you know, changing models or mixed models generally don't have a long history of working and we said, "You know what? We're just going to do it." Matt: And so the team decided to do it, I just said, "Yeah, let's do something." They said, "Here's exactly what we're going to do." And it was live, and then the amount of positive benefits, we got that from pure impressions. Matt: It actually helped our adult business to ... Adult language learning business. That's just one quick example of when those things all start working together. Matt: It's transparent, it's engaged and it's consistent. It becomes kind of operating leverage as well. So it's fun. It's fun to see how that work. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. It's definitely a good reminder of do good things and good things will come back to you. Did you have any struggles with maybe like surges and people logging in and trying to get on the platform that maybe you hadn't experienced in the past? Because it was maybe a bit more predictable since it wasn't free? Matt: That's a really good question. Not on the system, the system's basis, but certainly from a support basis because we had a lot of, we outsource most of our customer support, and we debated for a while whether we we're going to continue phone support, we still do and I still debate that one, but a lot of our service providers were in outside United States and they all of a sudden had to work from home and then some facilities shut down and so we are just constantly playing whack-a-mole with our support organizations. Matt: And then also, I would say to our frontline heroes were our tutors and we employ a lot of highly educated tutors that have degrees in language learning and they all work from home primarily, they're part-time employees. Matt: And they turn out to be like our heroes because they took some support calls in addition to one-on-one digital tutoring. And so there was unique ways in which we had to adapt with the demand, but I would say more on the demand side regarding the support elements and we definitely saw a surge do the work from home trend as well, but that didn't impact kind of service levels and general software. Stephanie: Okay, cool. And I could see it being a bit tricky to develop and maintain a platform that has so many different layers to the business. I'm thinking about the enterprises who are going on there and buying seats for employees, and I'm thinking about the school is going on there for students, and then the individual consumer like me who's maybe like, "Hey, I'm going to Italy and I want to learn Italian." Stephanie: I don't know, but like it seems like it would be pretty tricky creating a platform that does all of that. How do you think about creating that so everyone gets a good experience and also being able to monitor and measure it in a successful way? Matt: Yeah, I've never seen the complexity Rosetta Stone before at the smallest scale, but what I mean by that is we have three businesses and we're a small cap public company. So that's unusual and the business was run on the language side ... Well, let me step back. Matt: So the literacy business is a business that was acquired seven, eight years ago and that's a 30-year-old company that was acquired, it's called Lexia and it works as a distinct operating unit from my business and is run by an awesome gentleman. Matt: And I use that word loosely and if he's listening, sorry Nick, he's a great guy and so passionate and his team is so good and it's ... I've never seen before a product that's built with like academic research combined with awesome data product engineering that gets results. Matt: It's just, I've never seen anything like it and they had the time to build this product over these many years, it was always digital first and so they're run separately. Matt: My language business was run on two different tech stacks. Actually, it was like five and when I started, I was like, "Well, wait a minute, why is this product that looks the same running off this underlying architecture? Why don't we move everything to react?" Matt: As I kind of went through this morass of tech stacks, it was a lot of M&A that generate a lot of complexity and a lot of tech debt. And so I would say majority of our innovation was not innovation, it was just keeping these old tech stacks up. Matt: So from an R&D perspective, in addition to all the other complexities we just talked about in this interview, I was trying to grow the consumer business, trying to change the business model, swapping out new team members for more growth orientation and doing a huge tech migration. Matt: And the complexity around that is mind boggling. We finished that late last year like de-flashing like old weird services, moving to a services architecture. All that stuff we end up doing and inevitably, the goal is to have one learner experience, just like you use Google, Google Mail for your enterprise, or personal. Matt: There were some admin privileges and other things that are associated in the back end, but in general, the product kind of looks and feels the same and that's, the inevitable goal which we're very close to execute on. Stephanie: Got it. Were there any pitfalls that you experienced when going through all those different pieces to the business or anything where you're like, "When we implemented this, or we move to this type of tech stack, this is when we saw a lot of improvements with conversions or anything around the consumer or enterprise business." Matt: Yeah, just on conversions, yeah, one thing on that is interesting is the amount of improvement we saw just with like putting different team members with specific goals and this is going to sound kind of crazy because everyone is going to like, "Yeah, he's talking about agile." Matt: Just getting very specific about areas in the funnel to improve and how to adjust the trial experience at certain times, and experiencing and showing customers different things at different times. Matt: That had like a crazy amount of upside for us. And I would say less architecturally that we see an improvement other than we had just less stuff that wasn't moving the innovation forward, but just these small things have big impacts and get and I must say like if any one of my team members is listening to this and say, "You haven't solved all that yet is." Matt: It's very difficult to take a business that is so complex, and then all sudden kind of say, "Look, we're going to reduce all the complexity, networks are innovating again." I think there's still a challenge of like, faster, smaller teams, we use a safe framework which is kind of scrum like. Matt: I don't think we figured all that out yet, but it's way different than when I came in and felt very waterfally to me. We're going to issue a press release, what this release is going to look like in one year and we're going to work back from that, I'm like, "Yeah, that's very Amazon." Stephanie: Yeah, yup. Matt: I'm like, "Well, how do you even know this is the right thing if you don't have any customer?" So there was there's a whole evolution of trying things, validating them, making sure that you're deploying enough capital against that makes sure it gets a fair shake, but not too much where you're, you're in over your head and we've had some public black eyes on some of our tests, and I don't care. Matt: We were trying some things internationally with tutoring, it didn't work out, it didn't have the capital honestly to support some of it and I kind of feel like those are good experiences to understand whether you're going to invest more in something or not. Matt: And so I think the fact that we can start doing those things now because we simplified the platform or if possible. Yeah, I think it's hard to say no to things and yes to things. And some of that discipline is easier when you're a startup because you just don't have people to outsource to. Stephanie: Yup. There's always an excuse. Nope, no one else can help us with that. Can't do it. Matt: Yeah. There's never like I'm a product manager by training and I've used every product manager tool under the sun and now I've kind of just resulted in my using Google Sheets again and what I'm trying to triage like epics and themes and stories, and I still like to play around with those types of planning elements, I just always look at all these people in these points available. I'm like, "You guys have no idea the luxury we have." Stephanie: I'm sure they like hearing that. Matt: Yeah, there's nothing more pure than a startup and it's like five people, five engineers and like a product manager that codes and the seat goes, doing UI, UX and it's ... Stephanie: Yeah, that's really fun. So you mentioned earlier a free trial which I actually went on Rosetta's website and I ended up going through the entire trial of learning Spanish. How did you all think about creating that free trial and actually convincing people to do it? Stephanie: Because a lot of times, I think I would see something like that and I'd be like, "Oh, that's too much time and I don't want to start that process right now." Stephanie: And I eagerly jumped in and started doing the lesson plan because it was engaging and fun, and it kind of felt like the real world with the person walking around and you're stopping and talking to them. How did you think about creating that? So it actually converted users into paying customers? Matt: Oh, thanks for saying that. Yeah, I think we have a long ways to go. I think in terms of what we could be doing is we're just, I just feel like we're sprinting to the start line because of the late start, but I think the core piece is for most companies and they think about like what business do you want to be in a lot of people will default to like whatever their venture capitalists said they should do from their other companies they manage or whether they read on TechCrunch or whatever, or listen to on this program is I think you have to be very specific once you figure it out the approach to the product that you're going after. Matt: Are you going to be freemium? Are you going to be paid trial? Or are you going to be for lack of a better term I call it force-trial or upfront trial and there's elements of this that change, there's kind of nuances. Because that's more of a nuanced discussion is the freemium players in the language space for instance would be Duolingo. Matt: How do you get the most amount of MAUs, Monthly Active Users and get enough of them to convert? Or the Spotify example, and you're using basically cap ex as cap, you're using your R&D to drive user and usage and that's kind of Slack-like. Matt: Slack is slightly different obviously. Then the paid trial is, "Well, I have enough of something that's good that I want a lot of people to use it, but I want the conversion to be pretty good." Matt: And so for the first one with freemium, you have to say, "Okay, it's going to be so fun and compelling and I'm going to actually invest in growth that isn't there yet because I think I have scale effects —I can crowd out everyone else." Matt: The second one is I actually have a pretty good product, I need enough people to use it and then feel like I use it enough to want to use more of it. And that's what I decided to do and I'll explain why. Matt: And then on the upfront paid thing is typical like for low ACV, Annual Contract Value SaaS companies you'd see, please just call my ... Just call us and we'll walk you through it with one of my sales reps. Matt: And we'll do a guided tour through the demo or whatever and the decision why we did the second one was it was a good decision and is people knew enough about what the Rosetta Stone brand was like that we knew people would want to try it and that for people that remember what it was like, they definitely would want to use it again and we felt like the pinch was more compelling if we gave everyone a little taste of that. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Matt: We could have said, "Please pay up front." And we're the gold standard and giddy up, but we felt like we needed to earn our stripes a little bit into proving to people that we weren't just like a port of a CD product. Matt: And so that's why we decided to do that and we've played along different roads before. We've never done full freemium and I would argue at this point in the market, we would not be better served to do that because Duolingo has done a really good job of growing their monthly active users and have built some advantages there and we're not trying to play that game. Matt: I'm trying to play the game of being a really good, effective language learning product and I'm trying to set the tone in the trial experience that when you're using the product, it's not going to be like a game. Matt: It's not going to be like Clash of Clans. I guess Clash of Clans is a bad example, or the jewel or like Candy Crush I guess is what I was thinking of. Matt: Every day, I collect coins and I'm collecting coins to benefit my gameplay. It's kind of how I think about Duolingo a little bit and it's ... I think they're masterful of what they do, but I think they're designed to do something different than what I'm trying to do. Matt: And if you're serious about learning a language, and you stick to what I'm doing and you do a couple tutor sessions that we offer, you're going to get there. Matt: And so the business model and what we're trying to do in terms of posture, not market share, but revenue share really drove kind of the philosophy on the trial experience. Stephanie: Yeah, it definitely, it felt more serious especially where you could speak in the language and it would tell you I guess if the tonality was right, and if you were saying it correctly, and it would keep kind of advising you on it, once I saw it had that feature, that to me was when I was like, "Whoa, this is really serious, and I better be ready to learn this language because it's not like a game, it's not just saying random words." Stephanie: You're actually kind of conversating and having to hear yourself which I think is really important. That seems like a big first step to getting people to try it. Matt: It's an interesting observation because we are very oral first in our pedagogy. We want people to engage with the product and speaking is actually just in general a really good way to learn and then the key outcome of speaking well is not sounding stupid. Matt: And so if you're trying to learn a language, you want to sound somewhat authentic. So for Rosetta Stone, I would say, for anyone that really wants to learn a language, we'll get you there, but if you're just kind of trying to build like, it's like counting your calories kind of. Matt: If you wanted to do something like that, then I would say, pick a freemium product over ours and yeah, it's not like super intense scary, but it's like, "Yeah, you better do your lessons before you do your group tutoring session." Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's, I mean, that's great to incentivize people like you're paying for this, you might as well get the best out of it. Is there, so one thing I was thinking when I was interacting with the free trial was, "Wow, this would be really cool if there was like a virtual world where you could be walking around and talking to other students who are learning." Stephanie: Are you all thinking about any technologies like that to implement or is there anything on your radar where you're like, "We're moving in this direction or planning on trying this tech out or this digital platform out?" Matt: Yeah, we've played with VR in the past. I've been kind of like bearish every time someone says, "Let's go into VR." I'm like, "This is [crosstalk 00:39:27]." Stephanie: It's a hot word for a while. VR everything, it doesn't matter to the problem. Matt: Yeah, I know and I have a lot of friends. One really good friend of ours, she has a pretty successful, his definition of success and I think it is honestly successful VR games company, but like I have a lot of other friends that went into VR that gaming or especially verticals that just had a hell of a time just because there's not enough handsets that are available. Matt: Well, we have dabbled in in terms of immersive experience. I think what you're saying is is there a way to since we're immersive, use technology to make it even more immersive and what I really want to do is enable more AR in our experience. Matt: And we have like a little feature called seek and speak where you can ... It's like an almost a sample app where you can use your phone, we use ARKit to do a treasure hunt for things around your house like fruits, objects around your house and incorporate that in your speech practice. Matt: And I always thought that was like a really cool thing for us to expand into and if we ever get the Apple visor, some AR HoloLens or whatever, it'd be cool to start interacting with your world around you, not just with translation, but also to see if you can actually interact with folks that are kind of ambient around that experience. Matt: I personally and maybe this we're going too deep here, but I always thought it'd be cool if like I can visit another country and just decide how much of the spoken language am I going to generate myself, how much am I going to have my device do it because I'm not going to spend the time. Matt: And then how can I phone a friend? How could I have my tutor or my guide integrated experience where I'm going to sound really authentic if I do this or here's an experience that I could do here. Matt: I think the goal for language learning inevitably is different based on where you are in the world, but if you're from the United States or one of ... Maybe some European countries like the UK, it's kind of like this is a cool way to get engaged with a culture. Matt: If you're not in those countries, learning English primarily is a necessity and so I think some of these AR ideas that you just mentioned would be really good and speaking more frequently to other folks that are even not native speakers, but just trying to generate language is a very good way to teach. Matt: We have a product coming out called Rosetta Stone English this summer, literally like a couple months and it is a version of Rosetta Stone for EL kids or English Learners K through six. Matt: And this product is an oral first product and this blew me away. The stat if you're trying to teach a kid English primarily from lots of different countries is written communication. Matt: It's like 20% spoken and so our product is like 70, 80% spoken because this ... And so it's just really interesting. What could you do that's more immersive using AR or VR? Matt: I think there's, I'm with you. I think there's a lot of cool things you could do and I think you could enhance the travel experience quite a bit. I think you could enhance the young learner experience quite a bit. I think there's so many cool things you could do. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree and there seems like a lot of opportunities there. So what kind of disruptions do you see coming to the world of ecommerce and online learning? Matt: Yeah, it's a weird market and it's weird because like depending on what we're talking about in terms of overall commerce, it's like a $6 trillion education market, 6 trillion. Matt: Consumer is probably the largest out of that and then obviously, there's higher ed, there's middle school, high school, there's elementary, and then there's adult education and then where it's coming from, is the consumer paying, is the government paying. Matt: And so take all this aside, less than 10% is digital right now and I think there's going to be this massive realization and awakening because of the C-19 pandemic of everything that I do has to be digital. Matt: And it's not that we're replacing teachers, it's how do we integrate digital curriculum and conductivity between the teacher and the student, how do I build a data layer that personalized that experience. Matt: I think that can happen between, language learning, it can happen in lots of different curriculum like reading and writing. And not having a digital enabled kind of curriculum I think is going to be like if you don't have a solution for that, if you're an education system, if you're a college, if you're whatever, and if you don't offer these types of products in the future, you're going to go the way the dodo bird. Matt: I think higher education has a wake up call. J.Crew, I like J.Crew, they're in bankruptcy now. Hertz, I used Hertz. They're in bankruptcy now and I think there's this massive pull forward right now that's happening because the product that we've been using in education hasn't changed in like 40, 50 years. Stephanie: Yup. Matt: It's the same problem. If I time warp myself from 50 years ago into most classrooms, it would look the same. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I've always kind of thought that a disruption was definitely coming around higher education, but this seems to have moved everything forward by many years and especially around K through 12 where that felt like it would be much harder to change. Stephanie: For colleges, it's like, "Okay, now it's changing pretty quickly with all the boot camps coming out and company's not really always requiring degrees, at least in this area." Stephanie: But K through 12 felt hard to change and it feels like this is going to be an interesting forcing function now that like you said, a lot of kids are home and parents are figuring out how to be a part of their education more in the online learning process. Stephanie: It just seems like there's going to be a lot of opportunities that come up because of this. Matt: Yeah, I agree. And I also think that now I'm sounding like the tech utilitarian, but I would say that ed tech and I'm not from the ed tech space, but I am in it now. Matt: I would say that the ed tech providers that ... We're now entering the third wave I guess is how I think about it. The second wave which is typical of most other businesses that you and I have seen before, like ecommerce or sales ops tools, now you can talk about those and go, "Remember Omniture and it was badass?" Matt: Yes, it's now part of Adobe Cloud Matt is when you talk about these generational shifts in how we think about things, I think a lot of the ed tech players, people who are selling software to schools or directly to the parents or kids or whomever, they've definitely oversold or oversold the efficacy of some of those products. Matt: And when I talk about digital transformation, I'm not talking about the ability to do things self serve, and have the teacher look at some flat experience. Matt: Right now and this is not against teachers. Teachers, they're like little mini MacGyvers to me. I mean, they're like doing amazing things streaming together curriculum on the fly. Stephanie: Yeah, both my sister and my mom are teachers and I do not know how they're doing it and how they had to pivot so quickly to being in the classroom and my sister is actually a ESL, English as a Second Language teacher. Yeah. Matt: Oh my gosh, okay. Stephanie: Yup, because I have a twin sister and she always tells me about the difficulties that she's experiencing right now trying to bring her students online and develop curriculums online and a lot of them don't have internet access and it's just very interesting seeing how they kind of develop workarounds to make it work for their students. Matt: Yeah, my criticism of education isn't the teacher clearly, a lot of it is kind of the cost basis in the bureaucracy and when I talk about ed tech, it's like I think it comes down to and this is not a Matt Hulett Rosetta Stone specific thing is educating a group of young individuals or even old individuals, it doesn't matter the same way at the same time makes zero sense. Matt: And so building in the ability for the student to do some things themselves, having a data layer so that a teacher understands the areas in which that student is struggling, and so that the instruction becomes very personalized. Matt: It is generally what I'm talking about and it's right now, I think we have a billion and a half young kids around the world that don't have access to computers. Matt: And if they do have access to computers, they're scanning in their Math homework and sending it to a teacher. Well, who knows if I struggle for five minutes on this problem versus long division versus multiplication? The teacher doesn't know. Matt: And so I think the ed tech software that I'm more in favor of what I'm speaking about is how do you build curriculum-based, efficacy-based software, not unlike what your mom and your sister think about because they have degrees and know how to actually educate someone, they're not software [inaudible 00:49:10]. Matt: And if they're wanting to provide very explicit instruction, my guess is they're really swamped. They've got other things they need to do, they're probably paying for materials that are [crosstalk 00:49:22]. Stephanie: Yup. Matt: And so I think about all these stresses and we're asking them to provide excellent education, it's just, it's too much. And so I really feel like this third wave of technology, and I think it's going to happen is it's going to integrate this we call AI and HI, how do you integrate the best of what software can do and integrate that into the lesson planning of the teacher versus let's try to create AI for the sake of AI and disintermediate teachers which I think is ridiculous is and that's what I'm talking about. Matt: Because I see a lot of tech companies playing the game of ed tech versus education companies that are actually trying to be technology companies. Matt: I think the latter will be the software and the providers that will end up actually being the most successful and the most adopted, but obviously, I'm passionate about this because I've seen this with our Lexia software. Matt: And we have like 16 plus academic studies that show that the software works and I'm like, "How is this possible that two-thirds of kids still today by the time they're a third grade or reading below their grade level that continues through eighth grade?" Matt: Two-thirds are reading below level. How is this possible? And I'm not here to tell my own software. I'm just like, "Why is this possible?" Well, it turns out we don't train teachers to teach kids how to read. Matt: There's an approach to it, and we don't do real time assessments of kids struggling, the teachers swamped, they don't know what's going on. Matt: Anyways, I could talk about this for hours, but I do think there's this world where at some point, the $6 trillion business of educating all these kids and adults and young adults will be digitized. Matt: And I think that will be an interesting space. Ed tech is that one space where most VCs wouldn't want to touch. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I know. It's a hard ... I mean, health care and education. It's a hard space. So yeah, I completely agree. I know we're running into time and I want to make sure we can jump into the lightning round. Matt: Okay. Stephanie: Is there any other high level thoughts that you want to share before we jump into that? Matt: Nope. I think I hit the verbose button when I answered that question, but I didn't realize you have some familiar background on education which got me going so I [crosstalk] Stephanie: Yeah, no, yeah. Matt: I will be [crosstalk] lightning round. Stephanie: Yeah, we need a whole other podcasts where we can just talk education stuff and I can have my family be the call-ins and they can give us a little advice and ideas. Stephanie: All right, so the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I ask a few questions and you have one minute or less Matt to answer. Are you ready? Matt: I'm ready. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list? Matt: Words that matter. I don't know the author. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next on your podcast list? Matt: This podcast of course. Stephanie: Hey, good. That's the right answer. Matt: And then Masters of Scale. There's a new podcast actually with one of my competitors from Duolingo. Stephanie: Oh-oh. Very cool. Yeah, that's a good one. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Matt: God, it is embarrassing. Do I have to say it? Stephanie: Yes you do. Matt: Too Hot to Handle. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. I can't believe you're watching that. I'm judging a little bit, but I've also seen a few episodes. So if you were to choose a company right now to turn around, not Rosetta Stone, some brand new company, not a brand new one, but maybe one that's in the industry right now where you're like, "I could jump in and help." What company would you choose? Matt: That's a great question. WeWork. Stephanie: Woo, that would be an interesting one to try and turn around. Matt: Yeah. Stephanie: All right, next one. What app are you using on your phone right now that's most helpful? Matt: I listen to a lot of podcast, I love Overcast. I don't know if anyone ever mentions that. I just love it because I listen to things 2x. Stephanie: Yup, yeah, I know. I agree. I like that app as well. What language are you or your family working on right now to learn? Matt: Well, it's funny. I'm kind of barely competent in Spanish. My 16-year-old is actually I would say pretty intermediate level Spanish and my 10-year-old is oddly learning Japanese. Stephanie: Oh, go. Go him. A boy, right? Yeah, that's great. All right and our last, a little bit more difficult question. What's up next for ecommerce professionals? Matt: Oh boy, ecommerce professionals. I think to me it's a lot of the same topics in ecommerce have been discussed for so many years and I think that the interesting one is how do we actually make social commerce really good. Matt: And I think I spend a lot of time just, I'm not serious with it, but playing with like, TikTok and Twitch, and I think there's some elements to the social selling piece that I think are super interesting that no one's really figured out and I buy actually a lot of products off Instagram, and it's still too much friction and it's not quite working right for me. Matt: So I think there's some ... How do you integrate ecomm and then TikTok in a way that's native to that audience? I think there's some things there. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good answer. Well, Matt, this has been yeah, such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Rosetta Stone? Matt: Rosettastone.com for the company and I'm matt_hulett on Twitter and it was a pleasure to talk to you today. Stephanie: All right, thanks so much. Matt: Thank you.  

My guest today is Matt Nish-Lapidus. Matt is an artist, musician, researcher, designer, and educator based in Toronto. Besides creating art and music, and doing design work, Matt also teaches at the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design. In this conversation, we discuss the role of art in our evolving technological and cultural environments. Listen to the full conversation   Show notes Matt Nish-Lapidus (emenel.com) Matt on Instagram Matt on Twitter University of Toronto New media art SFMoMA MoMA (New York) Tate Modern Nam June Paik Theodore Adorno The Anthropocene New Materialism Jane Bennett The Walt Disney Company Marvel Impressionism CARFAC David Rokeby Pietà by Michelangelo Buonarroti Jenny Holzer New Tendencies Soft Thoughts må Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: So, Matt, welcome to the show. Matt: Thanks. Happy to be here.  Jorge: For folks who might not know you, can you please tell us about yourself? Matt: Yeah. I sometimes these days refer to myself as a recovering designer. My original background, educationally, was in fine arts and specifically in new media art. And then, over the arc of my career, I found myself working in interaction design and very interested in the intersection between humanity and various types of complex technology, as in networks and computational technology. And I did that for about 15 years. And towards the end of that period, I found myself more interested in the types of questions that felt like they were better answered through my art practice than they were through my design practice, and the kinds of questions that also didn't seem to be that interesting to other designers or to our clients or to potential employers or partners. So about five years ago now, I left my job and decided to focus more on my artistic practice, which includes music and sound art as well as technology-based arts of different types. And in September of last year, I actually started my MFA, which is a Master of Fine Arts, in Studio Practice at the University of Toronto, which I'm currently pursuing on top of other things that I continue to do, like playing music and work with other organizations. Media Art Jorge: Folks listening to the show might not be familiar with the term “media art.” How do you define that? Matt: So the most basic way to understand it – in the highest level, probably – is that unlike painting or traditional photography or other types of sculpture – you know, other types of traditional arts – media art and new media art were emergent practices that specifically dealt with new types of mass media originally. So, it was artists working with televisions, with video, with different kinds of sound and broadcast technologies. And then over the course of the last couple of decades, became artists that work with the internet or with computation, and different kinds of network technologies, and think about them from an artistic perspective, which is usually a critical perspective or thinking about the impact that they have on people or the way that people relate to them and the new types of relationships and new types of affects that they create. Jorge: So, it's art that uses technologies, especially like communications technologies, as its medium? Is that the idea? Matt: Yeah, as its medium and often as its topic. So, we make art about the technology is sometimes using the same ones. And the practice goes back to the late fifties, but really in some ways is now the dominant practice in contemporary art. Jorge: Can you name some examples of how you would experience new media art? Matt: Yeah. I mean, if you've ever been to a contemporary art gallery or museum of modern art, whether it's the SF MoMA or the MoMA in New York, or the Tate Modern in London, a lot of what you're seeing would be in this category. Artists who work with light, who work with sound, work with video projections, interaction in different ways… You know, a famous example from the early days of media artist Nam June Paik, who worked a lot with televisions and his work was both about television as a cultural object, but also as a medium and as a material. The Role of Art Jorge: We're recording this in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic in the spring of 2020. And I have to mention that the context that we're, that we're speaking in, because we are accelerating our move to interacting through technology. And you and I are talking right now through Zoom and I can see you. So we're having a conversation, and it's perhaps too soon to know, but I'm wondering what role does art play – especially, you know, this new media art that you're talking about – in a world in which we're increasingly interacting through technology. Perhaps the question is more broadly, it's like, what is the role of art? Matt: Yeah. So, it's an interesting question and it's one that's been asked by artists and philosophers for many, many years. And I've been thinking about this lately. In the fifties – it might have even been in the sixties, don't quote me on the date – a German philosopher and media theoretician, Theodore Adorno, wrote an essay in which he asked, how do you make art after Auschwitz? Like, what is the role of art in a world where something as horrible as the Holocaust could happen? And how do you as an artist deal with that, and still see beauty and joy and the sublime and all these different things, when our understanding of what's possible in the world is so fundamentally changed and so terrifying. And I think there are a number of similar questions that we can be asking ourselves right now. Before this outbreak, the big question on a lot of people's minds was a similar one, which is how do you make art in the Anthropocene? If we're witnessing a period of, like massive global scale change and devastation this like slow train wreck, what is the role of art and how do you continue to make art in the face of such a massive and often depressing and serious thing. And I think like the pandemic that we're currently trying to figure out raises a similar kind of question again, just like what is the point of art and how do you make it and what do you make it about when our understanding of what's possible in the world has fundamentally changed. When there's a new thing, a new object that exists that didn't really exist before. There's a school of philosophy called New Materialism and a kind of well-known New Materialist, Jane Bennett, talks about these things as what she calls assemblages. And an assemblage is like a network of heterogeneous actors that all have different kinds of agency. And, looking at the pandemic through the lens of Bennett's idea of an assemblage, you can start to see the agency of the virus as a political actor, as an economic actor, as a social and cultural actor. And for me anyway, that's where as an artist, my interest in it lies, and where I think I can kind of grapple with our current situation is not saying, “okay, well what do we do when we're all locked in our homes,” but saying, “what are the fundamental changes in the world that we can observe? What are the things we want to try to say or express about them or understand through making things?” And then, “what kinds of things can I make that help with that understanding or are cathartic or express an affect or give people something that I think they want or need given the kind of drastic changes that this is affecting on all of our systems?” High Art and Popular Art Jorge: When you say that, do you make a distinction between… I don't know if the appropriate terms are like “high art” and “popular art”? Matt: Like in terms of, like a museum and gallery art versus like television shows and movies and things like that? Jorge: Yes. Matt: Yeah. I mean, I don't see a huge distinction in a formal way. I think good media, like a really well-made television show, for instance, that deals with these topics in a critical and thoughtful way, that's based on research and, you know, does things like… explores the ideas through the medium that they're working with. I don't see that as being massively different than, you know, a piece of art that you might see in a art gallery, or in a museum.  Jorge: I would also expect that the reach would be different as well, right? Matt: Yeah. Probably considerably different… Jorge: Yeah, it'd have a greater influence on the culture if it's a movie put out by the Walt Disney Company, as opposed to something exhibited in an art gallery, no? Matt: Yeah. I mean, the reach would be massively different. I think though even in those media that, for the reach to be at the scale of like a Disney or, you know, Marvel kind of thing, you're having to make stories that connect with people in a certain way, which, I feel like often precludes you from doing the deep and difficult work of truly critically reflecting on a situation and expressing something about it. And when you see TV shows or movies that do that, they often don't have those kinds of audiences. Jorge: Yeah. The intent is different, right? Like one is a purely or mostly commercial product, whereas the other, like you're saying, is more of an exploration of a way of being, an ideal? Matt: A way of being, a way of thinking, a way of seeing and understanding things. I think when art is really amazing, for me anyway, it's when something changes, like a piece of art can change the way that I see the world. It can change the way that I understand myself and see myself. It can reflect back to me a feeling or an idea that I've had but couldn't express or didn't have words for. And I think great art from every era, especially the modern era – which is, you know, loosely from like Impressionism on up – a lot of it is really about creating that kind of critical and reflective mirror and reflecting not just to the individual viewer, but reflecting on culture and on society and on the place and time where it comes from and reacting to things that are happening in the world. So, like, I'm excited actually to see how artists react to what's happening now because in a way, that's what art does. The Market for Art Jorge: One thing that I was wondering about is how does the market value art? I mean, we were talking about Disney, and we know what that market looks like, but I was just wondering someone who makes art for a living, how do you make a living? Matt: It's different in different countries, which is interesting. I mean, there's a combination of things depending on the kind of work that you make. Some artists make work that you can sell, that people can buy and there's an open market and you make a name for yourself, and the work goes up and down and value based on how collectible your work is or what museums want to acquire it or, or other things like that and that works for, I guess more and more kinds of media these days. Like it used to be that if you made installation or you made sound art or video, it was hard to sell that on like the art market. That's becoming more of a thing. People will buy that stuff. In a lot of countries, other than the US… So, in Canada and the UK and a lot of Europe, there's a big public funding infrastructure for arts. So, in Canada we have arts councils at the municipal, provincial, and national level that provide funding for artists and artists' projects in different ways. There's also regionally determined fee structures for exhibitions. So, if you get a piece of work into an exhibition and the gallery has funding, they will usually pay based on the agreed-upon fee schedule. It's kind of like the actors' unions? It's not an official union in Canada, it's called CARFAC. It's the Canadian Artists…. some, I don't remember what it stands for. But they set a kind of standardized fee schedule. And so often when you submit a piece of work to a gallery or to an exhibition or to a curator, it'll say on the submission, like we pay, you know, CARFAC's scheduled fees, which are basically based on like how much experience you have and they have standardized fee structures. Those are the main ways. The other one is commissions. So, a museum or a festival or a curator may really love your work and want you to make something new for their exhibition, in which case they'll have a production budget and they will offer you some sort of project budget to make the work. And then at the end of that, either they own it, or you own it, depending on the stipulations of the contract. Time and Place  Jorge: One of the interesting aspects of what's happening right now is that time feels greatly accelerated. I saw a tweet just yesterday that said something like, “the last couple of weeks have been a really long year,” or… Matt: Yeah. Jorge: It feels like time has greatly accelerated right now and, conversely, it feels like place has become blurred. You are… I believe you're in Toronto right now, right? Matt: Yup. Jorge: And, like I said, we're talking over Zoom and, earlier this morning I was in a meeting with colleagues who are here in the Bay Area, but I experienced the interaction in exactly the same plane that I'm interacting with you now. So, you could be here for all I know, right? So, place has become erased somehow. And I'm wondering about time and place and new media and how new media, I mean, it has it in the name, right? “New” Media? Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when that term originally was coined, it was in -response to existing media. So, it was trying to say, we're not print newspapers, photography, like we're not talking about those things. We're talking about these new media, which are video and television. Originally it was those things, and then, computation. And I think time and place and the kind of collapsing of time in place has been a big part of the work of new media and media artists since probably the mid- eighties. You know, there's a piece I remember seeing by David Rokeby who's a new media artist that's been working since the early eighties with computer vision and computational space in different ways, where he set up a room with quadraphonic sound – so four big speakers – and then had a gallery – this was in Toronto – and had a gallery in Amsterdam, set up the same thing in their room. And then using very rudimentary digital video cameras from – this was probably in the late eighties, early nineties – movement in one space was translated to low frequency sound and the other space basically creating like airwaves. So, if two people were moving simultaneously in both spaces, they would actually feel the impact of the other person's body as air pressure through sound? So already in those kinds of early pieces, they were thinking a lot about like, what does it mean to collapse space? How do we be physically present in different spaces? I feel like we take a lot of this for granted these days. And it's interesting because like this phenomenon we're experiencing right now is really unique in a number of ways. But one of the most interesting to me is that it is global, like actually global. Everyone around the world is impacted by this in some way, and very similar ways in terms of like, isolation or lockdown or social distancing or these, you know, words that we didn't even have in our vocabulary a week ago. And now, like, literally every human being on earth is impacted by this. And I can't think of another phenomenon that crosses those boundaries in the same way. But in my own practice and then thinking about, you know, art and the things that I'd be excited to see is in a time where the world feels like it's been collapsed in on itself, and we're experiencing this unifying, like, single event as a species, it would be really interesting to think about what the local differences actually are. Like, what does it mean to be in isolation in different parts of the world or in different cultures, or you know, in Italy, people were singing to each other from their balconies? I can't imagine that happening in London. So, even though we're experiencing this unifying effect, there's still going to be those like local cultural differences and uniquenesses that I think are so important to thinking about artwork and the way that art reflects culture, and is often so specific and so unique to certain places in certain times in the way that it responds aesthetically to localized events. Experiencing Art Online Jorge: You reminded me of something that I've noticed over the past few weeks, which is cultural institutions like museums announcing to the world that, “Hey, you know, that you can view our collection online!” Now, especially with so many people at home, who are looking for new things to do with themselves while there, they only have this little window on their computer to the world, right? Matt: Yeah. Yeah! It's an interesting thing to see since so many museums are so woefully behind in terms of digitizing collections and thinking about alternative ways of exhibiting work. Our experience of art and the way that we think about art, especially at the institutional level is so grounded in this physical experience of like, being in a place with a thing, or in a place for a performance or these very spatio-temporal experiences. So, yeah, it's fascinating to see what some museums are doing. In some ways it reminds me of the mid-nineties, late nineties, again when there was an explosion of like “net art” and artists working specifically with the internet as their medium. And so, like those works existed natively online and museums and galleries at the time were struggling to figure out how to present them in physical space. Like, how do we take a work by a net artist and put it in an exhibition at the MoMA? We didn't know how, and they still don't really know how. And now we're faced with the exact opposite problem, where they're like, how do we get all of our paintings and sculptures and objects available to people somehow through the internet or through virtual tours or whatever it is that they're doing? Jorge: And these new technologies change our understanding of the work itself, right? When you said experiencing the work in a physical space, I remember the experience of seeing in person the statue Pietà, by Michelangelo. And that's an artifact that when you're standing in front of it, it has a certain volume because of the materials it's made from, you know that it has a certain weight and you can touch it. But you can feel that, being in this space with it, and it's very different to see it in photographs, which I had seen many photographs before I saw the real thing, but it's a different experience. And I don't know too much about new media art, but I remember in university looking at the work of Jenny Holzer. Matt: Yep. Jorge: And, for folks who are listening who might not know Jenny Holzer, she worked a lot with words, right? Like she had these slogans that she presented in various ways. And after Twitter, I have never been able to look at her work the same way. Matt: Yeah. It's so interesting. Being Relevant vs. Remaining Relevant Jorge: You know? And I'm wondering, with technologies that are changing so fast, as someone who is working with art, how do you balance expressing the needs and perhaps if we can use this phrase, the “spirit of the time” with making the work stand up over time and have some kind of longevity? Matt: Yeah, that is a very hard question. And it often comes down to the work having some sort of value beyond its technology. So, like with Jenny Holzer for instance, the words are an important part of her work, obviously, but so is the way that it's presented. So, you know, she made these big LED signs with scrolling text in different directions and sculptures out of them. She did a series of giant texts that was projected on buildings. So, like the context of presentation and the way that the words were made into an object really changes the work. But then the words themselves, you know, for some of the pieces are maybe good enough words that they stand up on their own. And so like, would Jenny Holzer's words work as a series of tweets, would they have the same impact? Maybe, maybe some of them would, maybe some of them wouldn't. And the ones that wouldn't, probably wouldn't because they rely on the context and materiality of the way that she presented them to create the meaning, of the overall piece. You know, one of the things that I love about, being an artist and, and working on artworks, especially like contemporary artwork, it's rarely a single thing. What we often are working with, especially what I'm working with is these like assemblages of things. And it's in the relationships between the things that the meaning emerges, rather than in the individual components themselves. So, I also work a lot with texts, and I've been working a lot with texts over the last year or so, and the texts themselves, most of them I don't think would hold up just as text or as poetry or as whatever. I think they need the rest of the things that go around them – the other objects or the aesthetic treatments or the context of presentation – in order to become meaningful. And one of the things that's interesting about this move to online that we're being forced through due to the closure of institutions and isolation, is that, well, the museums struggled to figure out how to present work online that was never meant to be seen that way, and to change its context, which changes its meaning. I think there's massive opportunity in starting to think about how to make work targeted at this new context like that exists natively in this kind of distributed way, which is not a new thing. People have been doing that. There's, like I said before, net artists and, lots of people who make art that's targeted at the internet or targeted at different media platforms. But this feels like an opportunity for more people or more of us to start thinking in that way and start to really like push at the boundaries and kind of assumptions baked into the networks that we exist within. So that's actually something that I find kind of exciting, and I'm starting to think about and work on. Closing Jorge: Well, that's a fantastic place to wrap up our conversation, because my next question to you is, “and where can folks follow up with you to find out what you're up to and is your art online in ways that folks could experience it?” Matt: A little bit of it is. You know, having learned how to make websites in the mid-nineties at the birth of the internet, I've never actually had a website of my own, because I've never happy with them and I never finished them, or like I'll finish part of it and then not put any content up. So, I am working actively right now and taking advantage of this time to make a website for myself. So, you can find my nascent website with very little content, but I'm going to be adding more every day at emenel.ca. Emenel, which are my initials spelled out phonetically, is also where you can find me on just about everything. I'm probably most active on Instagram these days, and I do post pictures of my work and work in progress on Instagram. And yeah, emenel.ca is my, it will be my website. It's there now, but there's not a lot of new content on it yet. I'm working on documenting some work and writing some stuff to put up there. Jorge: And I want to make a plug for your music as well. Matt: Oh yeah. Thanks! On my website there are links to my music projects. But I have, I have kind of three active projects right now. One is called New Tendencies, which is actually named after an Eastern European art movement from the sixties to the late seventies that was one of the first kind of computational art groups. So yeah, New Tendencies is kind of my more experimental music. I have a group called Soft Thoughts, which is kind of an ambient, soundscape kind of thing with two other musicians. And then I just started doing something I haven't done in a long time, but I started making, kind of like old school, minimal techno again, under the name Ma, M-A, and that's also on Bandcamp. But there's links to all these things on my website, or you can find them on Bandcamp, some of it's on Spotify, et cetera, but a lot of it's not. A lot of it's just on Bandcamp. Jorge: Well. Fantastic. I will include all of those in the show notes. It was such a pleasure having you on, Matt. Matt: Oh, I always love our conversations and I'm happy to talk anytime.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: OK, Matt, I thought we'd talk about people that we admire and the qualities about them that we admire. So, first, we're both sports fans. Who is an athlete that you admire?Matt: Athlete that I admire? I would have to say, Jackie Robinson would come to mind, just because of the barriers he had to overcome and the things that he experienced, that people after him...Todd: OK, can you... a lot of people might not know who Jackie Robinson is.Matt: Oh, sure, yeah, I'm sorry. Jackie Robinson was the first black man, the first man to break the quote-unquote color barrier in baseball and he was in 1947 brought in to the Major Leagues from the Negro Leagues which were at that time the only place where blacks or colored athletes were allowed to play baseball, so the first three years he endured an enormous amount of racism and hatred and he had to basically bite his lip and wasn't able to seek revenge or fight for three years, so yeah, just what he went through, above and beyond just playing the game was something that I always admired in him.Todd: Yeah, a special guy. Definitely. How about in movies is there an actor that you admire?Matt: You know, I mean, I love so many actors and actresses in different roles. I think just in the interviews that I've seen, I really like Johnny Depp because he can play different characters and he's not afraid to play off the wall characters or even bit parts or small roles that other main actors probably would not be interested in and he definitely, he brings humor to every dramatic role that he does. And just being in LA, I had a chance to see him film the movie Blow for about a week and just to see his demeanor on and off the set and he was not superficial or tough to deal with at all just from an outside perspective, he seemed like a really down-to-earth, cool guy, so I've always admired him.Todd: Well, what is your favorite Johnny Depp movie?Matt: I'd have to say, well, the first Pirate, Pirate's of the Caribbean Movie, the first one was fantastic, his role in that, and yeah, that's probably my favorite.Todd: Ok, thanks a lot, Matt.

   Episode #1 Description   Welcome to “What the Lyric?!?” In this episode, we bring our favorite bad lyrics from Pop Music (c. 2016-2019). One song from an artist who desperately wants to fix her “Reputation” with some cringe-y spoken-word lyrics. And another from a Brit whose time would best be spent learning to “let go” of the booze.   Transcript of Episode #1   Becky: Welcome to What the Lyric?!? -- the podcast that confirms...yeah, that actually made it to radio.   Matt: Is it recording?   Becky: Oh now we’re recording. Oh fun!   Matt: Oh yay!   Becky: Hello everybody and welcome to What the Lyric?!? where we talk about how much we love awful, awful lyrics. A little bit about me: I’m Becky. I will listen to anything once, and over and over again if it’s really bad. And then there’s Matthew over here, my partner in crime…   Matt: You know, honestly, if you had to summarize my musical tastes, the best way to look at it would be to say that my go-to karaoke song is “Promiscuous” by Nelly Furtado ft. Timbaland.   Becky: So you know we have good taste. That goes without saying. How this whole podcast is going to work is...We have one song each that {...} we get to pick off the theme of the episode. Today’s theme is Pop Music from 2016 to 2019. We get to do a dramatic reading, and after the dramatic reading, we talk about why the lyrics are SO bad and why we had to call it out. All right, so starting first is...Matthew.   Matt: Okay.   Becky: Get ready.   Matt: Definitely get ready for this. So I chose a song...just to give you a little context for this: it comes from, I believe, August of 2017. So put yourself in that state of mind. It’s a year after the election; things are terrible...still.   Becky: I was probably high.   Matt: I mean, weren’t we all?   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: It is Seattle.   Becky: You’d have to be.   Matt: And so this person has decided to reshape their image and, you know, I’ll just let the lyrics speak for themselves:   “I don’t like your little games Don’t like your tilted stage The role you made me play Of the fool, no, I don’t like you I don’t like your perfect crime How you laugh when you lie You said the gun was mine Isn’t cool, no, I don’t like you (oh!)”   Matt: And that’s the first stanza.   Becky: Okay, so I’m guessing… Who’d be packing heat in 2017, you said? August?   Matt: Uh huh. Changing the image!   Becky: Could be… Oh! Changing the image? Only because of the changing image thing, that would be Taylor Swift?   Matt: Correct.   Becky: Oh the Swifties.   Matt: But do you...do you know the song?   Becky: Oh Jesus! Is it that...It’s the one where she then breaks it down and says, “Oh, Taylor Swift isn’t here right now. Because she’s dead!” Something along those lines? *Laughs*   Matt: This would be “Look What You Made Me Do” by Taylor Swift.   Becky: Oh yes. *Repeats the phrase “Look What You Made Me Do” twice.* Or however the rest goes.   Matt: Exactly. And really, my choice for all of the songs in this podcast are based on what I like to call “Cringecore.”   Becky: I love that. We are going to copyright that.   Matt: *Laughs* Really any songs that have lyrics that [make you go] “Oh!” You’ve heard of cringe comedy; that’s kind of how I view these lyrics.   Becky: I like it.   Matt: And specifically the -- what makes this so cringey is what you already mentioned, the, let’s find it…”I’m sorry the old Taylor can’t come to the phone right now” set to the background music of, “Ooh, look what you made me do.” “Why?” “Oh ‘cause she’s dead! Becky: The old Taylor is, like, what? 23? 24? I mean, she’s not old.   Matt: She’s got a guitar. I mean, her…   Becky: She’s country. Country Taylor.   Matt: She’s Country-Pop.   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: Don’t you remember when it was just a love song, baby?   Becky: Oh man. Oh God. Ohh...Getting a little gag reflex going.   Matt: And don’t forget the “I knew you were trouble.”   Becky: Oh is that the one with the turtle sex noise meme?  *Laughs*   Matt: *Laughs* That is exactly what that is. *Laughs*   Becky: My favorite ever!   Matt: So really Taylor...I had a lot of options, just based on Taylor, but I have to admit, the lyrics are just...a mess. Let’s keep it going. I mean, we’ve already heard the first stanza.   Becky: Oh yeah.   Matt: But then she continues to say she doesn’t like being the fool, but “[she] got smarter, [she] got harder in the nick of time.”   Becky: How does one get harder when they’re carrying their cat around everywhere? I see a lot of photos of her with her cat. Don’t get me wrong, [I’m a] crazy cat lady, but I’m not taking Kink with me...My cat’s name is Kinky Disco. I’m not taking Kink with me to the grocery store, to the gym...Okay, I don’t go to the gym, but like, I’m not taking her out on a night on the town.   Matt: Unlike Taylor Swift, which I will also say I find it interesting that for a woman whose last name is Swift, she didn’t choose “faster” for the lyric. Like, that would have made AS much sense… “But I got smarter, I got faster in the nick of time.” Okay! I’ll still take that!   Becky: She got badder? I’ve never heard her swear! I’ve never seen her not smile.   Matt: She doesn’t swear in this song either. The real question, and we can answer this question at the end of the analysis, but what, what, WHAT did we make her do? I’m just very curious.   Becky: Maybe make her carry a cat around all the time. *Laughs*   Matt: *Laughs* We did this to ourselves.   Becky: Maybe she has to date all these DJs. Maybe we forced that on her with our expectations of her music and turtle sex noises.   Matt: And her Starbucks lovers!   Becky: Oh God, that’s right.   Matt: “But honey, I rose up from the dead. I do it all the time.” Necromancer, interesting. “I’ve got a list of names and yours is in red, underlined. I check it once, then I check it twice. Oh.”   Becky: Wait, what does that mean? What are you doing? You checked it. Yup, still there.   Matt: Based on the lyrics alone, we have realized that she has gotten harder in the nick of time and also, presumably, become an elf of the Santa variety. She’s making lists; she’s checking them twice. Don’t know why she’s using a red pen.   Becky: Well it is festive. Red -- Christmas-y. Becky: See I can’t get past the “hard” part. She’s not like, all of a sudden, turned to Nicki Minaj-hard. Or like, back in the day, Lil Kim hard.   Matt: She’s not going to be Beyonce carrying around a baseball bat, breaking windows.   Becky: No, but she did bust out the band, the marching band.   Matt: Oh we can always get into that!   Becky: I saw that! I saw that!   Matt: But if that’s the case, then she still did not get harder in the nick of time because she’s still following Beyonce.   Becky: Yeah. And pink isn’t really a “hard” color for me. Like, it’s not a color I go, “Oh! I see Notorious B.I.G. is wearing pink. He’s hard.” That isn’t why I would have classified him as hard. I don’t think I’ve ever seen B.I.G. [in pink.] Maybe he did? I don’t know; I’d have to go back and look now.   Matt: *Laughs*   Becky: I feel like I’d have to look that up. *Laughs*   Matt: And then really, the rest is chorus, which in case you haven’t realized it, is just: “Ooh, look what you made me do. Look what you made me do. Look what you made me do. Look what you just made me...OOH, Look what…” Okay, I think we’ve got the idea.   Becky: I feel like someone got lazy. I feel like that happens a lot in lyrics. And that’s lazy.   Matt: Which part?   Becky: The just repeating the same line over and over and over again.   Matt: Yeah, it’s not a good look. And worse, is the next stanza:   “I don’t like your kingdom keys” Kingdom keys.   Becky: Keys? As in house keys? Car keys?   Matt: Yeah, apparently someone’s got a kingdom.   “They once belonged to me.”   Becky: Okay.   Matt: Uhhh, questions?   “You ask me for a place to sleep Locked me out and threw a feast”   And the best part of this is at the very end of the line is, “What?!” So even Taylor looked at these lyrics, “Locked me out and threw a feast...WHAT?!” And they just included it.   Becky: Yeah, they said fuck it. It’s Taylor Swift; it’s going to be huge. That’s exactly how it happened.   Matt: And ultimately, it was.   Becky: I know!   Matt: “The world moves on, another day, another drama, drama But not for me, not for me, all I think about is karma And then the world moves on, but one thing’s for sure (sure) Maybe I got mine, but you’ll all get yours.”   Becky: All of a sudden we’ve gone from one person to all?   Matt: Oh yeah. So whoever took her kingdom keys apparently stole her keys, stole her kingdom and was like, “No bitch, you don’t live here anymore.”   Becky: Could kingdom keys *laughs* be a metaphor for virginity, here?   Matt: But then which one? Which one of the Starbucks lovers is guilty of that.   Becky: *Laughs* I wish I had kids so that I could be like, “Kids, keep your kingdom keys as long as you can. Just lock them away.”   Matt: “Your chastity belts won’t rust. Don’t worry.”   Becky: “Just keep those kingdom keys to yourself and be sure to give them to the right person.”   Matt: Abstinence-only education.   Becky: “And if you are going to give them away, just keep them protected.”   Matt: Just keep them on a carabiner. Becky: *Laughs* Those Schneider keys that had the chain you could just pull and snap back.   Matt: Exactly!   Becky: Keep them safe. You’ve got to know where they are at all times.   Matt: Taylor did not follow that advice. She is thinking about karma apparently. She’s not going to do anything about how angry she is, which again really contradicts the meaning of the song.   Becky: The “Look what you made me do”!   Matt: Exactly. She’s like, “Oh karma will take care of it. I won’t do anything about it except sulk.”   Becky: I’m going to sit and just bitch about it.   Matt: Yeah. And honestly, the rest of the song. A) It goes back to, “I got smarter, I got harder in the nick of time.” Return to that and then another amazing chorus of “Look what you made me do.” And the final, original set of lyrics is:   “I don’t trust nobody and nobody trusts me. I’ll be the actress starring in your bad dreams. I don’t trust nobody and nobody trusts me. I’ll be the actress starring in your bad dreams.”   And it just repeats until it transitions flawlessly into “Ooh, look what you made me do.”   Becky: Taylor. Taylor, I get that you’re young, probably started partying, started drinking a little bit and that’s where this came from, maybe. I don’t know.   Matt: Girl’s nearly in her 30s.   Becky: Yeah, I don’t get it.   Matt: Britney had a weird stage; I’ll allow Taylor one, but this was a…   Becky: Britney had a good one because she shaved her head.   Matt: *Laughs* She put on a show!   Becky: *Laughs* She is a showman through and through. Like, she shaved her head, tried to attack somebody with an umbrella…   Matt: I don’t remember the umbrella… Becky: Oh yeah, that was after she shaved her head. I think she went for somebody’s car window because they were taking photos of her in the car, so she went for that. Yeah. That’s a good photo to look up. It’s priceless.   Matt: That’s the next segment.   Becky: Yeah, that’s the second podcast. Photos of people going crazy.   Matt: That’s the first one!   Becky: Okay, so I think, universally, this song is incredibly awful. I think we can both agree.   Matt: Do we have a rating for this?   Becky: I would say she’s mild. Like, on a scale of 1 to 5 -- like, 5-star spicy crappy lyrics -- she’s probably right in the middle there.   Matt: I am inclined to agree.   Becky: It’s like a 3-4.   Matt: Right. It depends on your own taste buds, your ethnicity. Certainly when it comes to this song.   Becky: Oh god, yeah.   Matt: Honestly, on a scale of 1 to 5 yikes, I’m inclined to give it a 3. What nudges it toward 4 is the spoken lyrics...   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: “The old Taylor can’t come to the phone right now.” “Why?” “‘Cause she’s dead.” And then I just hear the teenager in me slam the door and yell, “You’re not my real mom and you never will be!”   Becky: *Laughs* I will say, also, [those lyrics are] my favorite part of the song.   Matt: It’s only the original part of the song!   Becky: It really is! It really is. That’s like her acting out. And you’re like, “Oh. Ohh. Taylor got edge.”   Matt: To be honest, what would have kept it at a 3, if they would have just deleted the spoken word portion. This would have been a goth “Call Me Maybe.”   Becky: Yeah. Ooh, yes! I like that. I agree with you on that one. So we’re going a solid 3 to 4 yikes on the awful lyrics scale.   Matt: I am inclined to agree. It’s not the worst. It’s certainly not the best lyrics.   Becky: It’s definitely not. *Noise of a truck* Sorry for the trucks in the background, people! This is what happens when you record in an old building. Alright, so mine...Honestly, I don’t know when it came out. This song is the reason this podcast is existing because my coworker heard me bashing these lyrics and said, “Oh my god, please record this.” So Ellen, here you go!   Oh God, how do I do this? Okay:   “I met you in the dark, you lit me up You made me feel as though I was enough We danced the night away, we drank too much I held your hair back when You were throwing up   Then you smiled over your shoulder For a minute, I was stone-cold sober I pulled you closer to my chest And you asked me to stay over I said, I already told ya I think that you should get some rest”   Becky: And then it goes into the chorus. Go ahead, see if you can guess this one. Yeah.   Matt: I’m going to need some more lyrics.   Becky: I’m going to go into the chorus right now:   “I knew I loved you then But you'd never know 'Cause I played it cool when I was scared of letting go I know I needed you But I never showed But I wanna…”   Becky: I can’t even get to this part without laughing.   “But I wanna stay with you until we're grey and old Just say you won't let go Just say you won't let go”   Becky: ...Which is the name of the song.   Matt: Ohhhh my God.   Becky: That is James Arthur’s “Say You Won’t Let Go.” Now James Arthur, if I remember correctly won, like, X Factor, which is a British TV show like…   Matt: America’s Got Talent?   Becky: Yeah! I think it’s something similar.   Matt: Are there buttons?   Becky: There are people who are guest judges or whatnot. I think it might just be music, so it’d be like an American Idol situation. And [this song] is one of the more popular wedding songs, which I find offensive.   Matt: Oh no.   Becky: Yes! Yes, this is played at weddings. People pick this as their wedding song. So I’m going to go ahead and we’re just going to start again. So he starts with:   “I met you in the dark, you lit me up You made me feel as though I was enough”   Sweet enough sentiment. Right?   Matt: I will say it sounds like they’re both getting high at a party, which I’m just like, “Oh okay.”   Becky: They’re young. They can do that. I mean, I don’t remember the last time we’d dance the night away. Here’s where I start to have some issues with this being at all a good song and even a wedding song, where he says:   “I held your hair back when You were throwing up”   Now, there’s so many things here for me. You just met her and now you’re holding her hair back. While she’s puking.   Matt: Wow.   Becky: Do you want to be with a girl who can’t handle her booze is my number one question. *Laughs* Like, is that a thing?   Matt: I mean, I have to hand it to him. I can definitely see a couple of things wrong with the dating culture. Number one -- women who look at this song and think, “You know what? I’m just looking for a man who’s going to hold my hair back 30 minutes after I’ve met him.”   Becky: She’s gotten to that point. It’s like in Singles where she’s like, I was looking for all these things, and now I’m just looking for a man who says “God bless you” instead of “Gesundheit” when they sneeze. That’s where she’s at.   Matt: I mean, it’s a pretty low threshold.   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: But I also think it’s very much a critique on straight men who are like -- there’s no such thing as a red flag to me. She’s vomiting in a toilet? I bet I could get laid tonight!   Becky: She is so beyond her means; if anything, we’re going in for the kill. Okay, so now it says:   “You smiled over your shoulder”   Becky: All I can picture at this point is puke-face, which is puke stuck in the teeth, her make-up is now down around her cheeks, she’s got raccoon-face. She is that girl at the end of the night who is missing a shoe. And is holding the other one in somebody else’s shoe in her hand. Her purse is open; shit spilling out all over the place. That’s the girl I’m picturing, and you’re like…”Yeah.”   Matt: Say you won’t let go!   Becky: *Laughs* This is the girl for me. Forever. No. No, I can’t...And a wedding song! I’m going to keep saying this. This is a wedding song. People pick this for their freaking wedding.   Matt: See, what I love about that is that it explicitly gives the couple permission to drink too much, to dance the night away. And THEN, as she’s puking, he’s going to be like, “It’s like the first night we met!” *Laughs*   Becky: Open bar at this wedding! Very clearly. We’re not going to have food, just booze because we’re going to relive our first night. I can’t. And then he says:   “For a minute, I was stone-cold sober”   Becky: Now, when you sobered up for that second, did you go, “What the fuck am I doing?” Because that’s [when] I would have gone, “What am I doing? Why? This girl is puking and I’m holding her hair back and that’s the girl I think…”   But then he went, “Nope! We’re good. I don’t know what that was about. I’m pushing that to the back. Pushing it to the back. That is not a red flag in any way.” I don’t get it. And clearly, puke-face is a turn-on for this guy because then he pulls her close.   Matt: He’s got a thing.   Becky: *Gagging noises* It’s giving me the gag reflex thinking about it. Then he says:   “And you asked me to stay over I said, I already told ya”   Classy. He’s good.   Matt: Wow.   Becky: Yeah:   “I said, I already told ya I think that you should get some rest”   Becky: Now I’m not sure if he’s just being nice because she just lost the contents of her entire stomach in front of him and he doesn’t want to embarrass her any more or he’s like, “I’m going to go in for the kill even though I said ‘Let’s just get some rest.’”   Matt: He’s closing the deal. Honestly, if he cared, he’d be like, “We’re going to get you some water and medical attention.”   Becky: This is a “Me Too” movement issue.   Matt: Yeah, a #MeToo moment.   Becky: And then he goes on: “I knew I loved you then.” Got to be a fetish. Like, puke-face fetish. I don’t know. Not anything I go for. “But you’d never know.” Yeah because she’s black-out drunk. Who remembers during black-out drunk-ness? And then he says: 'Cause I played it cool when I was scared of letting go.” Yeah because she could die of alcohol poisoning. *Laughs* There could possibly be a death that your fingerprints are on the body now.   Matt: He’s scared of letting go and yet, at no point does he think, “You know, there are medical professionals who are paid to take care of this.” Becky: Yeah, maybe urgent care. That’s all I’m saying.   Matt: She deserves better at this point.   Becky: Yeah, and then he goes into, “I know I needed you.” More like she needed you rather than the other way around?   Matt: Yeah, she needed you in the same sense that she needed to be hydrated.   Becky: Yeah, maybe needed to be told, “Maybe not that last drink.”   Matt: Exactly. And this is going to be a bad decision.   Becky: Stop spinning while you’re dancing. Doing that little spinny-dance. That hippie dance thing. I don’t know. I don’t dance. I have no idea what the kids do these days. So then we go into the he wants to stay with her when she’s gray and old.   When you’re gray and old and you’re still puking into a toilet, holding her hair back. That’s old.   Matt: My brain went the opposite direction. Of course he’s excited for her to get gray and old because then all sorts of bodily functions go haywire. He definitely has a kink for this.   Becky: He’s waiting for the diaper stage.   Matt: Yep. 100%.   Becky: So then we get to the next bit:   “I'll wake you up with some breakfast in bed I'll bring you coffee with a kiss on your head”   This is an intervention. She’s daydrinking; she’s hungover. That’s what this has to be.   Matt: Too many damn mimosas.   Becky: “And I'll take the kids to school.” ...Because Mom’s had too much Mom-juice? What is happening here? Now we’ve established there’s a cycle. There’s a problem. “Wave them goodbye.” Because Mommy’s going to rehab and you’re not going to see her for a little while is what I’m getting. I could be wrong. “And I'll thank my lucky stars for that night.” The puke night? You’re thanking your stars because now you are having to take over care -- ALL the care of your kids -- because your wife can’t get out of bed because she’s been day-drinking and going on the Mom-juice.   Matt: Alright, two things. Well, actually, two kinks really come out of this. Number one, he definitely has a thing for girls who are messes. Like, full-on messes. Number two, the dude was playing long-game. If I can get with an alcoholic woman, enable it…   Becky: There will be diapers sooner [rather] than later!   Matt: Exactly. *Laughs* And I cannot wait to get custody of the kids who don’t exist yet. So...interesting, James Arthur.   Becky: Maybe that’s all he wanted was kids. And he just needed some drunk, crazy lady that would believe anything he said to her just to get those kids.   Matt: I hate to say it, but I know a fair number of straight women who, if a dude held their hair back, they’d be like, “Aw, he’s got a caring, tender soul.”   Becky: Yeah, I probably would have said that in my twenties. I’m also 45 now, so I’m like, “There’s something wrong with this guy.”   Matt: That’s because it’s amazing when you get out of your twenties...the clarity through which you can see the world!   Becky: Oh my God, yeah. Okay, so then we go back into the whole, “When you looked over your shoulder. For a minute, I forget that I'm older.” And here’s where I become an asshole for picking this song because the next line is, “Because you’ve been too busy hiding her alcoholism from the family.” The song’s about alcoholism! People are playing this for weddings! Again, top wedding song -- alcoholism is mentioned in the lyrics.   Matt: Wait, repeat that exact lyric.   Becky: “Because you’ve been too busy hiding her alcoholism from the family.”   Matt: Wait, who is? He is?   Becky: He is. His whole little stanza is:   “When you looked over your shoulder For a minute, I forgot that I'm older Too busy hiding her alcoholism from the family.”   Matt: This took a turn…   Becky: I know! I’ve never gotten past the first stanza where he’s holding her hair and she’s puking. No idea that they would all of a sudden mention alcoholism. THEY MENTION ALCOHOLISM. How is this a wedding song? You people have got to listen past the first stanza. And then it goes into, “I wanna dance with you right now.” I’m assuming now because shouldn’t she be in rehab? And then, “Oh, and you look as beautiful as ever. And I swear that everyday'll get better.” Everyday’ll. That’s everyday, apostrophe, L, L. Get better. “You make me feel this way somehow.” I don’t know. What would that way be? Afraid of drinking?   “I'm so in love with you And I hope you know Darling your love is more than worth its weight in gold.”   Now we’ve just completely gone past the alcoholism. That was just a little blip. Just a little mention.   Matt: Just going to drop that in as a reminder.   Becky: Yeah. Then this one gets me, “I wanna live with you/Even when we're ghosts.” Really?   Matt: That’s eternity.   Becky: That’s really...no.   Matt: I have yet to meet a single person in my living life who I would want to spend an actual eternity with.   Becky: I don’t want to spend that much time with my cat.   Matt: Ah! But see, that is the precise lyric that made that a wedding song.   Becky: Yeah. OR “I'm gonna love you till/My lungs give out.” Till my lungs give out?   Matt: But then he just literally contradicts what he’s just saying. He’s like, “I’m going to…” What?   Becky: Be with you even when we’re ghosts. But now it’s just till my lungs give out. He backed it up a bit. He was like, “Ooh…”   Matt: There was a rug that he pulled out from underneath her, which is that he doesn’t believe in ghosts.   Becky: OR he’s thinking he’s got a better shot in the afterlife of hooking up with, like, Anna Nicole Smith or something.   Matt: I’m guessing. But no one says what Anna Nicole Smith looks like after she died. What form of Anna Nicole? Becky: He’s thinking ahead. FAR ahead since he cut it back down to just till my lungs give out. “I promise till death we part like in our vows”?   Matt: Yikes. That’s just poor sentence construction.   Becky: Well, again, this song is about alcoholism and it’s a top 10 wedding song.   Matt: That’s a winner.   Becky: I think it’s a top 10 wedding song mainly because he’s British and the Brits do love their booze. *Laughs* So I’m sure it hits home with a lot of Brits.   Matt: I’m going to give you the win on this one. It was never a competition. I’m giving you the win. That is a clusterfuck of a song.   Becky: That TOP hit...I don’t even know what it topped at, but it’s up there. Not only that...WEDDING SONG.   Matt: First of all, he didn’t just have a thing for ladies who were messes, he then also proceeds to move forward with it to be like, “You know what I really love about you? How you hide your debilitating substance use from your family. That’s a major turn-on for me.”   Becky: See? He gave us a little hint in the beginning, and we’re all like, “This guy’s just an idiot. They’re just young.” And then it’s, “Oh shit. They’re alcoholics.”   Matt: She’s got a problem! And then it should have just been, “I’ll love you until we’re ghosts, which will be soon because your liver won’t last much longer.”   Becky: Because cirrhosis is bad. I say this is right up there. I say this is a 4.5 on the yikes scale for me.   Matt: I was precisely thinking somewhere between 4 to 4.5, but I will give it credit. There’s no way it’s going to be a 5, only because there was an emotional journey there.   Becky: There was. He took you on a little bit of a ride, albeit a crazy rollercoaster of alcoholism clusterfucks.   Matt: I don’t think I would have ever..No, no no. AMENDMENT: I would have never guessed there was an actual major pop song that had the word alcoholism in it.   Becky: Now I feel like I’ve got to look it up, but he was up there. I can’t remember where it was, but it played a lot, and I was like, did anyone actually listen to these lyrics before it went anywhere outside of the recording studio?   Matt: I think they saw it and thought to themselves, “Oh my God -- the UK -- this is going to be relatable.”   Becky: *Laughs* These people drink like fish and they are going to love this song. Alright, let’s see if I can find it...where did this damn song hit. I can’t believe this song about alcoholism made the charts. Let’s see, Brit Awards...Video of the Year and Single of the Year in 2017. Also, Oh thank God, it wasn’t for Teen Choice Awards. Thank goodness!  He also won American New Artist of the Year that year!   Matt: No. This is #MeToo moment. First of all it was a #MeToo moment and then, following that, was alcoholism and neglect?   Becky: Peaked at number 11 on the Billboard Hot 100. In May 2018, it was reported that The Script, also another classic band, had launched legal proceedings against him due to alleged copyright infringement in regards to this song.   Matt & Becky: OHH!   Becky: It just got ugly.   Matt: Although now I’m intrigued at the title because...does the title, “Say You Won’t Let Go” refer to…   Becky: The booze?   Matt: ...a Jameson bottle? Or James Arthur?   Becky: I’d go with the bottle of booze. *Laughs*   Matt: I think she’s certainly loving that!   Becky: THAT is good when you’re a ghost.   Matt: You know what pairs best with cirrhosis? Jameson. Informal plug.   Becky: Jameson if you would like to sponsor us…   Matt: Please let us know!   Becky: Please!   Matt: Please get us out of this studio.   Becky: This studio is hot and there’s guns a-blazin’ probably somewhere in Seattle right now. Okay everybody, thanks so much for listening. Please join us next time when we take a peak at the riveting lyrics of songs from the ‘90s. That’s right. I’m Becky.   Matt: I’m Matt.   Becky: And this was…   Becky & Matt: WHAT THE LYRIC?!?

Join the Marriage After God movement and grab a copy of our new book today. https://marriageaftergod.com In this episode, we interview Matt & Lisa Jacobson From http://FaithfulMan.com and http://Club31Women.com & Faithful Family podcast. Here is a quote from our book Marriage After God “Your marriage is the message you are preaching to others. The way you and your spouse interact with each other reveals the gospel you believe.” Dear Lord, Thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the Spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain a deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry and the impact we have in each other’s lives and in this world, just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order or if we are not unified please help us to change course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point others to you and may you be glorified. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith of Marriage after God. [Lisa] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part five of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Matt and Lisa Jacobsen about marriage being your first ministry. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is marriage after God. [Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on week five of this series that we're doing. I hope you're enjoying it. You're definitely going to enjoy today's guests. But before we move on, as always, we want to invite you to leave a review. Those reviews help the podcast get seen by new audiences. So, if you've been enjoying the content, we'd love a star rating, which is the easiest way to do it, all you gotta do is tap a star in the app. And if you really, really want to and have time, leaving us a text review would be awesome. We read every single one of 'em, and we love them, so thank you for that. [Jennifer] Another way you can support this podcast-- [Aaron] So today on this episode, we're gonna be talking about content from chapter five of our book, Marriage after God. And the chapter's titled, "Your First Ministry." and we thought, what better way to talk about this chapter than to talk with our pastors and ask them who inspired us and showed us what it looked like to recognize our marriage as ministry. And now we actually reference them and talk about them in this chapter, and so today we have Matt and Lisa Jacobson with us, welcome. [Lisa] Hey, nice to be here. [Matt] Awesome to be here, you bet. [Aaron] Yeah, and we're in our garage, sitting on our couches. And today we're gonna be talking about this topic. But before we talk about that, why don't you introduce to the audience, just in case they don't know you guys, who you are, children, marriage, all that. [Matt] Okay, well, Matt Jacobsen, and this is my lovely woman. [Lisa] Hey, hello. [Matt] Lisa, and so we've been married for 26 years. We have eight kids between the ages of 12 and about 25. [Lisa] Yup. [Matt] Right, and there are four of them are out of the house and moved on. And so, what keeps us busy when we're not just hanging out and kissing in a dark corner somewhere. [Lisa] That's right. We also, we do homeschool and we do a lot of work with our kids. Our kids help us out with what we do at home and also in our ministry. [Matt] And so, speaking of ministries. So, my website is Faithfulman.com. [Lisa] And I'm Lisa with Club31women.com. [Matt] And so that is a writing ministry that speaks to marriage, parenting, church, and culture. Biblical perspective on those things. And so, that comprises a lot of what takes up our time in a given week. And then, of course, we're the pastors of a small local fellowship as well. [Aaron] Yeah, it's our fellowship. [Matt] That's right. [Aaron] You're our pastors. And we love you guys. And by the way, if everyone listening didn't hear what those were, that's faithfulman.com and club31women.com. You guys should definitely check them out. And why don't you tell them about your newest podcast that you guys just launched? [Matt] Awesome, okay. Well, the name of that podcast is Faithful Life. And it's essentially a podcast that is pursuing the and exploring the topic of what does it mean to live as a biblical Christian. There are a lot of people in the world, lot of Christians, people who identify as Christians, who are living a life that is really separate or tangential to the Bible. And really, if you're going to be a biblical Christian, you've gotta know what the Bible says about these various aspects of life: marriage, parenting, how we're to live within church community and then how we're to interact with the culture. And so, that's the focus of the podcast, faithful-- [Lisa] With a lot of emphasis on practical ways to do that, sometimes we kinda know in our heads what the right thing to do is, or what we believe the Bible says, but then how does that look in our day-to-day life, and that's something that matt and I really have a passion for is just connecting those two things. [Matt] And a little bit of experience. It's only been, what, 26 years you've been married and walking with the Lord and learning through all of the eight children. [Aaron] So we just want everyone to check out their podcast; it's called Faithful Life. And you're gonna love it. Just search for it wherever you listen to podcasts. So, let's get into the icebreaker question. And this is how we start all the episodes. It's just a fun question. How does your spouse like their coffee and what does that say about them? [Lisa] Okay, I get to go first on this one. Because everybody that knows Matt Jacobson well knows that he likes his coffee black, but, even more importantly, he likes it burning hot so that it burns a hole in your tongue, so he, if-- [Matt] And you better not put it in a cold cup. [Lisa] Right, the best way to show love to Matt Jacobson is to heat up the cup first and then pour his coffee into it. [Matt] Wow, that's one of the ways over the years you've shown love to me. But right, so anyway-- [Lisa] In the coffee-- [Matt] No, that's right in the coffee, in the realm of coffee. And Lisa takes her coffee with a teaspoon of sugar and cream and-- [Lisa] That's right, I like it a little sweet. [Matt] She likes it a little sweet, that's right. [Aaron] And it's just like her character too. Little sweet. [Matt] And I love making coffee for her; I do. In the morning, I love making coffee. I love bringing her a cup of coffee in the morning. [Jennifer] And you guys do coffee as a family a lot, so can you just share a little bit about that 'cause I just love that. [Matt] Okay, so, why don't you tell how we've corrupted our young children? [Lisa] Well, we started off in our marriage. We started each day with having coffee. Matt would make a coffee tray for him and I, and we would sit and have coffee together. And then as each child came along, we then slowly incorporated them into this special time until it became something our whole family just loves and so even our older kids when they come home for the holidays or different vacations, they'll come and that's the thing they look forward to most is having our time together over a pot of coffee. And we just talk about what we're thinking about, what's going on in our world, and it's just a really close family time. [Matt] And you know, oh, sorry. That whole process of incorporating the kids into it. It's kind of funny because it's really a metaphor, or an example, if you will, of what happens in your family. Over time, we're very strict with the older kids. I don't even remember when we began allowing them to have coffee. Including them. I don't even remember, do you remember how old they were? [Lisa] No. [Matt] But, as time went on, the younger kids just get to start earlier and earlier. And I think we started, did Hawkin have his first? [Lisa] He was about seven or eight maybe-- [Aaron] It was a bottle right? [Lisa] When he had his first cup of coffee. [Matt] That's right. [Lisa] A very, very tiny cup of coffee, mostly milk. [Jennifer] Mostly milk, yeah. [Matt] Yeah, right, and so now we're going, okay, so. [Lisa] Almost because their dad's kind of soft on the issue. [Matt] I am; I am. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I follow Lisa on Instagram, and I love watching your stories because you'll post about it every once in a while of just your guys' family time around that, and it's beautiful and you can just tell, just from that short glimpse that you give the rest of us that it's a really beautiful time that you're cultivating in your family. [Matt] And in some senses, like you see the snapshot, and it is awesome, it really is. But, it's just so normal, a part of life, and a wonderful life is built on a lot of normal moments that you just string together over time. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm, it's true, yeah, it's good. [Matt] And so, yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, there's the big one-offs that are memorable, but then there's the, it's the everyday things that shape who we are, it's all those habits that we have and those routines. I love that. Why don't you share the quote from the chapter? And then we'll just start asking questions. [Jennifer] Okay, so this is from chapter five of Marriage after God. "Your marriage is the message you are preaching to other, "the way you and your spouse interact with each other "reveals the gospel you believe." [Aaron] Matt and Lisa, how would you that that is true in what you guys have experienced, because it's something that you've definitely not only shown us through your own marriage, but also directly have shown us in ours in saying hey, you can't expect to have this ministry over here if your home doesn't match. So could you give me some insight on how this quote plays out in real life? [Matt] Well, one of the things that you just naturally see in life is you see people in ministry and what's the big joke in America, at least it used to be, I don't know if it still is, who are the worst kids in church? The PKs, the preacher's kids, right? And so, that is so antithetical to how we're called to live in the word of God because we are called ambassadors. That means that we are representatives of the kingdom of God on earth. We bear the name of Christ, and we're his representatives. And how is it possible that you have this ministry or you have this public presence, and then it's not true in your own personal life. You wanna tell somebody about the wonderful truths of Scripture. And you wanna tell somebody the gospel and explain to them how they can have a wonderful relationship with the Lord. And then you don't have, you're not living those wonderful relationships in your family. I know that we had seen a lot of this early on. And we were even involved in a particular church, years and years ago, they were lovely people but focused just on evangelism and kinda lost the relationships with their kids over time. We just saw-- [Lisa] And in their marriage. [Matt] This family's disintegrating. And the marriage is. Then we though, you know what, the life that we're called to as believers is much more holistic than that. And the truths of the gospel are supposed to be manifest in our lives. And if I could just say one more thing. I know you've got a lot to say, too. You see in the instructions for church leadership in the book of 1 Timothy, one of the principal requirements of anybody in ministry and this is serving as an elder or a deacon within the church. [Aaron] Yes, specific position. [Matt] One of the principal requirements is that you've demonstrated that your children have yielded hearts to you. You're governing your family well. You're leading your family well. There's a sense of order and peace in your home. So God wants it to be true at home before we go out to represent him to the world. [Aaron] And what does Paul tell Timothy, he says how can you presume to manage the household of God if you can't manage your own home, which is how he, after all that teaching, he says that it doesn't make sense. [Matt] Yeah. [Lisa] And I think that Matt's kind of big picture guy. And I'm more of what does that look like in my day kind of person. And one thing I had noticed that in Scripture, when it talks about how we are to be towards one another, how we're to be, to be loving, patient, kind. And we apply all of those things to out there. So, just an example: I go to the grocery store, and the cashier's taking forever to get me through the line. And she apologizes, but I've read the Bible, so I'm going to be, oh it's fine, I'll wait. I understand you're trying your hardest, and we'll get through here because I'm being patient, and I'm being kind. And then I go home, and I have a different response when it takes Matt forever to come out and help me bring in the groceries in the house. Or, because I'll be snippin' at him-- [Matt] Has that ever happened, like even one time in our marriage? [Lisa] Like I wait for you? Do you really wanna bring that up? [Aaron] Everyone listening was like that was just today. [Lisa] So, but it really struck home to me that all those things that we think apply to out there to strangers or maybe to friends. It somehow, or maybe there's a disconnect, to actually sometimes the hardest person, sometimes, is actually the person your married to. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, thinking about our own marriage. I used to do this thing where I would always be upbeat and positive and smiley with everyone. And then I'd come home and immediately my countenance would change, and Aaron-- [Aaron] I finally called you out on it, I was like-- [Jennifer] Yeah, 'cause Aaron would be like-- [Aaron] Why do they get the smiles and then I get this? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] What is this? [Jennifer] And then I remember specifically him saying, I want your best. And I had to figure it out. I had to figure out why I was doing that and check my flesh on it really. [Aaron] Well, I think there's a default position of, well, I have you, therefore you should deal with who I actually wanna be today, and everyone else has to, I want them to see the best part of me. It's almost like it's just totally backwards. And it's actually lying. [Matt] Well, the harsh reality of the circumstance is who you actually are in terms of your personal character is who you are when the doors are shut and you're letting your hair down, so to speak, and you're just being your natural self with the people where the consequences might not be as immediate or severe as they might be if you do this in public. And so, that's the reality of who we are. And so, it's important to take stock on those things. How am I with the people that I'm closest to because those are the people that we tend to take for granted and those are the circumstances that we tend to be a little less guarded. [Aaron] Now that you're saying that, I'm thinking, it's actually probably infinitely less damaging to be that kind of person in public, when people they may be offended for the moment, but they're gonna forget your face in like eight seconds 'cause they don't live with you than the person that we literally spend hours and hours a day and our lifetime with: our children, our spouse. We sacrifice the main thing for the non-main thing. [Matt] Totally, and that's of course humanly speaking, in terms of the cost, over the long-term. [Aaron] Yeah, publicly. [Matt] But relative to the Lord's perspective on these relations, he wants it to be the same everywhere. [Aaron] Yeah. [Matt] He wants us to be loving and in the spirit everywhere with the people, especially close to us, but also with everybody else that we're interacting with. [Aaron] Or repentant if we're not. [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah, there is grace Right? [Aaron] Which changes us. [Matt] Well, you know what, you brought up the R word: repentance. And that is such an important word and such an abused word in our Christian religious world because repentance has a specific meaning. It's a word that has a definition. And we cut ourselves so much slack and we dip back into the same sins over and, how about this, just this sin we're talking about here where we're not being kind to our spouse, but we've got it for everybody else. And, oh, I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. Please forgive me. And Lord, I was unkind to my wife, please forgive me. I should have been more kind. And then we go on our day, and then I do it again. And then I do it again. Have I repented if I just keep walking in that same sin? [Aaron] No, you've apologized. [Matt] I've apologized, right? [Aaron] You're sorry for being-- [Matt] Because to repent means I used to do that, and now I'm doing this. It means to turn from, that's the definition of the word. And it's such a good word for Christians, all of us, to really wrestle with, and say, you know what, have I really repented and forsaken that sin? Because that's what it means to walk as God would have us as a couple and not to just keep going back, over and over and over again. [Aaron] I think of this quote. I'm not gonna say who said it, but someone in our family used to say, "If you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it." That's kind of the idea; we say sorry over and over and over again. But in reality, our heart hasn't changed. We're just allowing something, whether we're intentionally doing something. We're not intentionally walking in the spirit, so therefore, we're defaulting to walking in the flesh, and we haven't repented of anything. This is something that I had to recognize in my life with certain sin in my life was I was sorry, but usually I was sorry for the shame or the regret or being caught or the remorse I see in your face or the pain I've caused you, Jennifer, but I'd never had been sorry for my sin which is what leads to repentance, and then I change and walk in that. So thanks for bringing that clarity. [Matt] Yeah, absolutely. And so to come full circle on your question, what does it mean to have a marriage that is reflecting the gospel? Well, if you have a marriage that is the kind of marriage that someone else is interested in, then you're not creating this incredible disconnect in the mind of the person that you're sharing the gospel with because what are you inviting them to? If the gospel hasn't affected and hasn't made your marriage beautiful, what are you inviting them to? Here we are married, and we have a bad, bickering, difficult, challenging marriage, and I'm out there telling somebody that Jesus loves them and died for them. It's so critical 'cause as we, and I know you guys have talked about on your podcast and certainly in your book, that your marriage is the gospel you're preaching, that is the gospel you're preaching. And the power of your message will not be one iota stronger or more influential than is the meaning and the love and the strength of your marriage relationship. [Jennifer] That's so good. I hope everyone hits rewind and just listens to that a few times. [Aaron] Yeah, and let's take marriage out of the picture, just in the Christian individual's life. If the gospel's not true in our life, so for me, when I was walking in my addiction to pornography, and I wasn't repentant of it, I thought I was, I was sorry for it; I was sorry for what it did to me, but I wasn't truly repentant of it. I could never tell someone that Christ came to bring freedom, which is what the Bible teaches us, that's the fruit of the gospel. [Matt] There you go. [Aaron] Because I couldn't walk in freedom. Like you said, I'm literally showing them, like, hey, here's God, he's awesome-- [Jennifer] He's powerless. [Aaron] He's powerless. [Jennifer] In my life. [Matt]right. [Aaron] He can't, and this isn't about just all of the sudden everything being healed and perfect and great, but this is definitely the truth of freedom from sin and death, which is what the Bible teaches, which is what Christ came to destroy. He took the power away from it. [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] But he doesn't have that in my life. Therefore, you should love God and believe in Jesus, but he can't actually do anything for the core of who you are. He can't change your physical situation or your spiritual situation, but, you know what, he's the thing you should believe in. It just doesn't make any sense. [Matt] No, it doesn't. We just need to remember that even if we're not saying anything, even if we're not on the street corner, preaching the gospel. We're preaching a sermon every time we walk out the door together. We're preaching a sermon. We're literally saying, this is what it means to be a Christian man and a Christian woman. Whether you mean to or not, you're preaching a sermon. The question is, what's the message that you're giving other people? [Jennifer] And how, can you explain, just for those people listening, how are they giving that message to other people? [Matt] It tends to be if you're living in a town and you've got your immediate circle and then you've got your circle of influence, the people you interact with, the people at the bank, the people at the gas station, the people at the grocery store, they know, over the course of time, they know whether you're a Christian or not. It just becomes evident that that is who you are. People probably don't realize it, but as somebody who identifies as a Christian, people watch you a little closer. They tend to want to just scrutinize you a little bit, or when we're at a restaurant. [Lisa] I was gonna say, what I was thinking about was how many times we've been in an airplane, traveling together, in a restaurant together, we have been stopped so many times by people we didn't even realize were watching us, someone who's serving us or the flight attendant, and said, you know, you two are just such a loving couple. And they could just see the way we were just interacting. And so people do notice that. And often times, especially at a restaurant, they'll see that we've prayed, so they also know that we're believers. And we've had a lot of opportunities to share the gospel with those people just even based on their observation of us. [Aaron] Well, it's uncommon. It's uncommon; it's normal to have cold relationships and being on the phones. It's uncommon to see engagement and true infatuation and adoration or-- [Lisa] Yeah, like the last time we were on a flight, we had a flight attendant come to us at the end of the flight, it was a long flight. And she said, "You know, the other flight attendants and I "were all talking about you two." Really? We're not that interesting. [Matt] Well, we were kissing, I mean. We were getting along kissing. [Lisa] That's right; that's right. And they were just observing how we were with each other, and how cute it was and thought we were maybe somewhat newly married. And I'm like, "Oh, no, we've been married 26 years, "and we have eight kids." Like, no way, yeah, really. [Aaron] And you're still in love? [Lisa] Yeah, yeah, it was really astonishing. [Matt] And you mentioned something about praying in a restaurant. And I know a lot of people listening probably do. It's probably less common these days than it has been in the past, but a lot of people still bow their heads and pray in a restaurant. Personally, I love doing that. I love just the witness: I'm a Christian, and I'm gonna give God thanks for this food. So I like doing that. But if you're somebody out there who does that, can I just encourage you to leave a fat, hog tip? Okay, because-- [Lisa] It's like a bonus. [Aaron] It is a bonus. [Matt] Because you've literally hoisted your flag at the table, I'm a Christian, and so, leave a great taste in your waiter's or server's mouth. [Aaron] It's a little sacrifice. [Matt] It's so small, yeah, so small. So small, but it's a good testimony, too. Just to say, you know what, love the Lord, and oh, by the way, God bless you. [Aaron] Going back to the, I think that's a great little bit of advice of how to spread the love of God. Like, hey, we love God and we just wanted to bless you, thank you-- [Matt] And certainly if it's a place that you go back more than once. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's true. [Aaron] Oh yeah! [Matt] You have struck up, well you've created an opportunity to strike up a conversation with the person because they're, well, first of all, they're business people, right? They wanna make money. So they wanna serve you well, and it's just an opportunity, that's all. Just an opportunity, if you're going to pray, then by all means, please don't complain about the food. [Aaron] I was gonna say that actually. There's certain Christiany things that we do, maybe we were raised that way, and we just pray. We're Christians, we love God, we pray. But then, let's say we're bickering at the table, or we are being super rude to the waiters, or our kids are throwing food on the floor and silverware. That is a part of our witness. [Lisa] It is. [Aaron] How we are. And they're like, you did the thing that I thought you were gonna do. They're looking for us to fail. [Jennifer] To fail, right. [Aaron] Doesn't mean we're not gonna fail, but the majority of the time, our hearts should be aware of how we're being, which goes back to that marriage being your ministry. You guys had this awesome, oh, people noticed us, and they stopped us and said thank you. We've had the other side of it. And no one's actually confronted us and saw us fighting, but we've had people message us after the fact. We've mentioned this a few times. And like, "Hey, we saw you in the store. "I didn't stop and say hi, but just wanted to say hi." And they'd message us on Instagram. And then we were like, "Oh my gosh, I think we were, were we fighting?" [Jennifer] This was a long time ago; we've gotten better since then. This was a long time ago. [Aaron] It made us aware, man, like, well, A, we have a social media presence, but it doesn't matter if you do. Like if you're a Christian, there's people that know you. You have friends, you have neighbors, you have, and people that may not know you personally, they're gonna see you regularly in your small town, or big town, I guess, because you frequent the same places. What kind of fragrance as a couple and as Christians do we give in this world where we say one thing and act a different way? That's literally what hypocrisy is. We talk about this, actually, in this chapter. We talk about, we're gonna ask you a question in a second, another question, but it doesn't make any sense if we're trying to minister in other ways, and then in the home, there is no real ministry happening. And so, question for you guys is are marriages being a ministry, and being our first ministry, because it's our first one another, our closest neighbor, we always like to say is our spouse and then our kids and everyone else. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Well, this husband, he's a minister, and he doesn't actually have time to be focused on his family. Or a wife that's doing this thing over here for God, and she doesn't have time to serve her home and children. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Why or why not? [Lisa] I don't know that there are exemptions in that sense although Matt might want to address that, but what that's come to mind, I do have many women write me who are in a marriage situation where the spouse is not a believer or at least not walking with God. And I know that that's a greater challenge, and I wouldn't want to put undue burden on that couple, especially the one that's trying to be faithful, and the other is not walking that way. There has to be grace for that, and the one person has to, you know, scripture tells us to keep quiet and just keep shining the light of Christ in their home. But I also wouldn't want to feel like, oh, I can't minister to others now because my spouse is not walking in truth right now. [Matt] And the way I would look at that is the Bible teaches us what is normal and how we are to walk as normal Christians in this world. And when it comes to marriage, what's normal is the way Jesus loves the church, his bride. That's how we're supposed to love our bride. That's normal. And that instruction, love your wife as Christ loved the church, that's not a special instruction for somebody who happens to be in the public eye. That is an instruction for absolutely every Christian man, every man who stands up and says, I follow Lord; I have committed my life to Christ. I have repented of my sin, and I'm a Christian. Every man who has said that should have a wife who says, I'm the most cherished woman I know. And no man is exempt from that. And so, here's the thing, if a church lays claim to being full of godly men, then there's one thing you know for sure, it's full of cherished wives. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot be a godly man and not cherish your wife. And so in that sense, I would say nobody's exempt from this, but, of course, we live in a broken world with lots of relationships and circumstances, and people have struggled. And God has grace for those things. But in those circumstances, the person, whatever they are, wherever they fall on the spectrum, difficult and virtually sad and very challenging to not that bad, wherever they are in the spectrum, their job is to draw near to God and walk as closely to God as he wants them, as he desires them to, and to seek them in those circumstances. But I appreciate you bringing that up because there are lot of people, lots of wives, lots of husbands, a husband called us recently. His wife left, he's got, I think they've got five kids. One of the kids has Down's Syndrome, and the wife's just like, "I'm done." And she left, and he didn't want her to leave, he tried to love her right up through, for several years, up to point where she left. He himself has remained faithful and has a ministry even though she's left, so it's true, it's not that you don't have a ministry. It's just that God provides his standards and principles and requirements for Christian men, for Christian wives, and for marriage. And then sin comes in and everything else is an exception to the rule, but the rule is every man is to cherish his wife in the way Jesus Christ loves the church. [Aaron] So, I do appreciate Lisa that you brought that up, too, because I'm sure that we have people that listen, and one of the spouses is not walking, is not a believer, and we get, praise God, he gives provision for this in his word, in 1 Peter, he shows, it's funny because it's to the wife, it's almost like he knew that men were gonna be more prone to this, not being faithful, which is sad, but it's true. But even then I think, you're right, that it doesn't mean they can't have ministry outside of the home because their marriage isn't in order correctly faith wise, but that doesn't mean that their first ministry still isn't their spouse. Like you said, they still have a call, the wife or the husband, to serve and love their spouse the way the Bible has called them to, faithfully, whether they receive it or not, of course. And that's also, I don't wanna say qualifies, I don't know if that's the right word, but, it still prepares them to do ministry outside their home because it's in order. Instead of, I'm not going to love my husband or my wife like this because they're treating me this way, but I am gonna go love over here, that's not gonna produce the kind of fruit that God's looking for. But I did appreciate that. I think it's totally relevant to recognize that there are these non-ideal marriages. [Matt] You know, and one of the things that might be important to mention here is wherever you are on the spectrum: you have a spectacular marriage all the way to it's terrible. We tend to fall into this wrong thought process that goes something like this: you're walking in sin; therefore, I can't help being the way I am. [Lisa] Oh, now, that's a good point. [Matt] And the fact of the matter is is the way you act has nothing to do with my capacity as a believer to walk in holiness. [Lisa] Right, no that's-- [Matt] And we kinda cut ourselves a little slack there, don't we? 'Cause if you're a certain way, well then that gives me license to be another way in response-- [Aaron] Yeah, if you only respected me, I would treat you or love you as Christ loves the church. [Matt] That's right, and every one of us has the capacity according to the word of God to walk in holiness, irrespective of how our spouse is walking. Now we certainly make it easier, right? If we're walking in holiness for the other person. But, we can't blame our distance from God on how someone else has chosen to act. [Aaron] Amen. [Jennifer] Taking a look into your guys' marriage. You know, you've been married quite a while. So go back to the beginning. Was there a learning curve in your guys' relationship on how to love and respect each other and cherish each other in that? [Matt] OH, absolutely. I was the most loving husband in the world. The only problem-- [Aaron] That's a real laugh, by the way. [Matt] The only-- [Lisa] Revisionist history, I think that's what it's-- [Matt] The only problem with it is I was loving Lisa in the way that said love to me. [Lisa] Oh, that's true. [Matt] We'd like to tell the story, in fact, we tell it on our own podcast. We just have this crazy story where I literally am superman husband, okay? I am helping out with everything. [Lisa] It's our first year of marriage. [Matt] First year of marriage. I am helping out with everything. I am helping with, not the laundry, you wouldn't let me touch the laundry 'cause she said, nope, that's mine; I will do the laundry. Everything else, the vacuuming, folding the laundry. [Lisa] Cleaning the bathrooms. [Matt] Cleaning the bathrooms, everything else, the dishes, everything, I'm helping, I'm helping. I'm doing it all, and I'm thinking-- [Lisa] And I'm getting madder and madder and-- [Matt] And she's over in the kitchen. And there's the flames, you know, the ones coming out of her eyes, are visible from across the room, and I-- [Aaron] Although I have never seen Lisa angry before, so I couldn't-- [Lisa] Oh, I'm capable. [Matt] And I thought, what is wrong with this woman? You can't find five guys in the entire state of Oregon that do the things that I do with a willing heart, and I'm trying to bless you, you're just, there's nothing that will make you happy. You can't be blessed; I don't know what your problem is. And so, she just takes the towel, and she almost busts a dish on me as she sets the plate down on the counter. And then she takes the towel and throws it on the counter. [Lisa] Thank you. [Matt] And I'm going, what in the world. She turns to me, and she goes, "I just don't know why you don't love me." [Lisa] True story. [Aaron] What's happening? [Matt] And I'm going, okay, am I losing my mind here? And I'm going, you've gotta be kid, you've literally got to be kidding me. [Lisa] So my thinking is I can vacuum, I can clean the bathrooms, anybody can do that. But there's only one guy in my life that can take me out and spend some time with me and listen to my thoughts. [Aaron] Look in my eyes-- [Lisa] Yes! [Aaron] And talk to me. [Lisa] And so he could just feel my frustration over time. So, the more frustrated he would feel-- [Matt] I would try harder. [Lisa] The more he'd vacuum. [Matt] I'd do more! [Lisa] And I'm just like, put the stupid vacuum down. I just want to spend time with yo. [Matt] So I'm going, wow, that's easy. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] Who knew love was that easy? So in our case, it was just me taking the initiative to say, okay, we're gonna go out at such-and-such a day, and it didn't matter what it was. We'd go for a walk; we could go have a cup of coffee. And I mean, at any time you as a husband tell your wife, "Hey, I just wanna spend some time with you." You can turn one cup of coffee into an awesome date. You really can. [Lisa] It doesn't take much. [Matt] It doesn't take much. You talk about learning curve, absolutely we had to learn each other and what was important to you and what was important to me and this is so true in absolutely every area of marriage. For instance, we've given you the for instance in terms of the learning curve, but in terms of discovering what it is your spouse is interested in, what they like, what's important to them. There's a very, very interesting way of finding out. [Aaron] You ask. [Matt] You ask a question! Yeah, yeah, and it's such a great thing to do because you know what happens when I turn to you and I ask you a question about you. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] Who doesn't like talking about themselves? Who doesn't like being known and explored and discovered. Who doesn't like someone being interested in them. So that's what we do when we turn to our spouse and say, okay, I wanna ask you a question. I wanna ask you what are three things that I can do that would make you feel loved? So that's just the normal stuff of marriage. But you know what? And you can even take it right into the subject of sex. And you can say, what are things that you enjoy when we come together physically? What are some of those things? Because, you know what, we tend to love the other person with the things that we want. [Lisa] I think that sometimes people boil this down to love languages, which is interesting and helpful. But what we're talking about is so much more than a love language, for one thing, those things change over time. It depends when the season when we had four kids, five and under, the vacuum really helped a lot, and I had a, not that I still didn't want to go out, [Aaron] Right, in that season, that was much more loving. [Lisa] Yeah, it was loving; it did mean a lot. [Matt] And physical touch when we had five kids. What would the age's spread have been with our five kids? [Lisa] Yeah, six and under. [Matt] Five kids six and under. Physical touch was less important to her in those years. [Lisa] Imagine that. [Matt] You know? She's got kids. You got enough of that. [Jennifer] Her tank is full. [Matt] Yeah, I'm touching 24/7, exactly. Right, so it does change over time. [Lisa] So instead of thinking of it as big subjects of love language, think of it as who you are as a person and where are you at today, where are you at in this season, where are you at in your life right now. And that involves that continual seeking and pursuing and asking. [Jennifer] So continual even after 26 years. Like you guys are still asking? [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] You have gotten there yet? [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] You haven't gotten to the-- [Matt] No, we're seeking each other all the time. And you know what? [Jennifer] And it's fun, right? [Lisa] It is. [Matt] It is fun, absolutely fun. And the thing is, if you love the other person, it's not a burden to do it. You actually want to know where they're at. You wanna know where their heart is at. [Lisa] And I think it can even be in somewhat negative things like say, I notice something triggers Matt into a bad mood or just like a dark, you know. And it used to be, when we were younger, that would just like, oh, fine, if you're gonna be in a bad mood, then I'll just stay away from you. I'm not saying those things, but that was my basic attitude. And I feel like over the years, now, let's say something like that happens, which it does, then I can say, I noticed, like something happened, you know, we had a good start today, and then something kind of went sideways. You wanna tell me about that? Did something happen or did I say something? Not in a defensive way, but just really, we've had some really good conversations about that. He'd go, "You know, I wasn't aware of that." Sometimes even going back to your childhood. As a child, my mom treated me a certain way, so now whenever I hear this phrase, it takes me back to a time when I didn't feel cared for. [Aaron] Yeah. [Lisa] And you're thinking, oh, well, I didn't mean to [Aaron] I know how it feels. [Lisa] communicate that I didn't care for you. But I can see that that would translate to that. And now I know, and I can be more mindful of that. [Aaron] And lovingly. Just the loving hey, is everything okay? Not because you're bothered by it. [Lisa] Yes. [Aaron] But because you're concerned for it. [Lisa] Yes. [Aaron] Which then, I'm sure, Matt, you would experience. There's been times that I don't even know why I'm brooding. It just takes a moment to be checked on it. And then I'm like, oh, I actually don't know why I'm brooding right now; I actually do feel irritated. I don't know why. Which it totally could be a hormonal thing, it could be a something I ate, and maybe there's something spiritual going on that we need to be praying through, but that approach of not taking it personally because we do that. Why are you doing this around me? I was in a great mood, now you just brought me down. But rather, helper, but for each, an actual concern. Hey, is everything alright? That was a really good bit of advice. I think everyone listening is gonna be loving these tips because this is 26 years of you guys learning this. We're only 12 in, what is that? We're not even half. [Matt] It'll go quick; it'll go quick. [Aaron] We are halfway to the kids, though. [Matt] Oh, that's right. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] And you got started earlier than we did. [Aaron] We got started earlier, so we might bypass you So you guys'll [Matt] Outpace us, yeah, that's right. But then there's adoption, we can stay ahead of 'em. [Aaron] It's true, that's true. So I'm loving these tips. And it all plays back into this. Right now, you're talking about how you guys minister to each other. Loving each other, cultivating intimacy, the communication, the strong bond which allows us, then, it frees us to be more able to minister outside the home. Not that it can't happen, but when you guys are so connected, so close, there's more freedom, and less internal turmoil. [Matt] I might even say it a little differently. I would say what it does is it authenticates the message. [Aaron] That's perfect. [Matt] And you know, we see this principle, well not just principle, we see this exact teaching in the high priestly prayer that Jesus prays in John 17 where he's saying, their unity, let them be one as we are one, Jesus is praying. Let them, his followers, those who come to Christ, who come to a repentance and become the children of God. Let them be one as we are one that the world might believe that you have sent me. The unity that we have, the oneness that we have is the authentication of the message of Christ that he came from the Father. And so, that's so true in the church as a whole, and it's absolutely true in marriage. When we're walking in love, when we're walking in unity, when we're exuding that, where we go through life, it authenticates the message when we do speak the truth of the gospel to someone. [Lisa] And not just out there, but in our own homes, to our kids. [Matt] Oh, that's just so true. [Lisa] When your kids are little, you can kinda get away with it, or at least you think you are. [Aaron] We think we think we are. [Lisa] Believe me, as they get older, they'll tell the world what it's really like at home. They'll tell their friends. [Matt] They do. [Lisa] I'm just saying because it's reality. And the opposite is true, too, that if you are loving each other, it's a witness to them, it's an encouragement to them. Our kids all want to get married. They want to have that kind of marriage. And that's a huge blessing. One of the things that we recently asked one of our older daughters, who's in her twenties. I think it was a Father's Day thing. What do you like most about your dad? She said that, "He loves Mom so well." And it was such a beautiful testimony that yeah, they're watching, they know whether you have loved each other in those quiet moments. [Aaron] Well, when you think about it, almost everyone probably listening, when they look back and they think about their home and how they were raised, I'm sure a lot of them, being raised in Christian homes or not, maybe heard the Bible, but did they see it? Did they see the Bible; did they see the gospel? They don't remember what they ate. They don't remember all the places they've been. But they definitely remember how Mom and Dad were together. They definitely remember how Mom and Dad treated them. And that's where the ministry in our home comes in. 'Cause I've told Jennifer this. I said, Jennifer, all of these things that we have, Unveiled Wife, Husband Revolution, our podcast. I said all of that means absolutely nothing if my kids don't know the Lord. And so, not just our ministry to each other that we have a healthy marriage and that we're godly, and that we love each other and respect each other and honor each other and cherish each other and serve each other, but that my kids see it. And that they recognize what we're doing and why we're doing it, and that at the end of the day, they look back and they say thank you to us, not because of us alone, but because we were obedient. I want my kids to say that. I want my kids to say, "Mom and Dad loved each other. "I just know it; they loved me, and they showed me "who God was and they lived it every day. "They didn't just use their words." As James says, don't just be hearers only, but doers of the word. Are we just listening and not doing? Are we just telling and doing the opposite? The do what I say, not what I do? [Lisa] Right, right. [Matt] Do what I say, not what I do. It works every time, just not the way the parent thought it was going to work. [Aaron] Exactly and so I just, going back to that, that's what I want everyone listening to understand. The main purpose of this chapter in the book, is, and it's early on in the book, it's chapter five, and it's setting this idea of we could want to do lots of things for God, but God wants us to do what he's told us to do. And if we can't be faithful with the little thing, and the little thing is our children, our spouse, our home, this is a little picture of the world. If I can't minister to my wife and love her as Christ loves the church, I have no right going and loving a stranger like that. I could. [Matt] I think what we do is we tend to think like, I know what you're saying, as this is the little thing, so to do the big thing. I actually think that reality is kind of on its head. [Aaron] Okay. [Matt] I think the big thing we're doing is we're being faithful with our spouses, we're being faithful in discipling our children. And it's a great, big deal, and see-- [Aaron] Man, I heard that, yeah. [Matt] If the church had been teaching and focusing on that these past, what, I dunno, however many years. [Aaron] 60 or 70 years. [Matt] Would the church be in the state that it's in today with disintegrating families and churches filled with unfulfilled marriages and disappointments and divorce and all of those things. It's a great big deal. And if we're faithful here, God can entrust with ministry elsewhere. [Jennifer] In chapter 14 of the book, we talk about how what God sees as extraordinary is so different than what the world deems extraordinary. When we look at our own lives, it is that day-to-day, all those little choices of discipling our children, being faithful to one another, that is extraordinary because that is where God is working. [Aaron] Especially today, it's normal, you brought up the word normal, it's common, that's what it is, it's common in the world for there to be divorce and unfaithfulness and children who are rebellious and hate their parents. It is extraordinary and remarkable now even though it should be normal for a marriage to have love in it. [Matt] Well, that's just it. [Aaron] The gospel. [Matt] It is normal, biblical marriage to have a loving, close, wonderful, fulfilling, enjoyable, beautiful oneness in marriage. That is normal Christianity; that's normal marriage. The problem is, is we see what's common around us in the world, and we get used to what's common, and start thinking that that's normal, but it's not. If you have a biblical perspective, if you walk God's way, and your marriage reflects God's priorities and principles, then you're gonna have an awesome, wonderful, beautiful, loving, enjoyable marriage because that's what a normal Christian marriage really is. [Jennifer] And the power of God's testimony in your life is actually powerful. [Matt] Absolutely, right, exactly. [Aaron] Well, people can't argue with it. I mean, they can argue with anything. We were just talking about this. When you're around people that are walking a certain way, makes it easier to believe that you can too. That goes both ways. So when you see someone, and you're like man they're, like the stewardesses looking at you. They don't your whole story, but they know the story they just saw. You're not faking it when you're sitting in the aisle, whatever row you're in and like, oh we want everyone to see that we're perfect. We have this smile on because you can't fake it. [Matt] Yeah. [Aaron] Everyone fakes it, and no one falls for it. Like, oh-- [Jennifer] Maybe for a short flight, but not long one like you said. [Aaron] Yeah, the short flight's, but yeah. [Matt] That's right. [Aaron] And again, we keep going back to this. God's not interested in just us having a happy marriage and a healthy marriage. [Matt] No. [Aaron] For the sake of happy and healthy marriage. That's not an end game. [Matt] That's exactly right. [Aaron] It's the means to the end, like you said. It's what, what was the word you used? It verifies, no-- [Matt] Authenticates. [Aaron] It authenticates. [Matt] Yeah. [Aaron] What's sad and still is very powerful to realize is when we're not it doesn't make God the liar. It makes us the liar. [Matt] It reminds me or brings to mind that phrase. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power. 'Cause you look at it from a galloping horse at 100 yards, and it looks like Christianity. It looks like something that's related to God and related to the Bible. But then you get close and you see, well, no, actually. It's not real; it's not true, and that's when we see the disintegration in the next generation when the kids are like, I don't want any part of that. Again, you just can't hide that. And especially, you mentioned, Lisa, you said, yeah, you can't hide it, your kids will absolutely tell the story and we know of a family. The snapshot looks amazing, and nobody would know this, but their kids told us recently, oh yeah, our parents yell all the time. And you'd never know it, but the kids know it. And the kids are now talking; they're all older now. And now they're saying, oh, no, no, no, no. Parents yell all the time. So that's why it's gotta be true there because if you're out witnessing, if you're that parents, and it could be yelling or bickering or fighting or cheating on your taxes or any number of things, but if you're that parent, and in the gas stations, you're telling a guy, oh, hey, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you, and God loves you, and he wants you to have a relationship. The kid is sitting there going, "Are you kidding me?" it's so important that for the things that we say to be true about how we live. It's called not being a hypocrite, and your kids can figure it out at a very early age. [Aaron] All of this was so good. I'm encouraged; it makes me think about my marriage even though we're constantly working on it, I just think, man, I wanna-- Makes me think [Jennifer] Of the kids. [Aaron] Yeah, I wanna pursue you more. I want to constantly be doing that for the sake of our outward ministry and for the sake of our home, so thank you for these stories, the openness with us. We're gonna ask you our question that we're asking everyone. What is your definition of a marriage after God? [Lisa] I think that it's that ever growing a deeper love for each other. And it doesn't have to be perfect. I think sometimes we just go, well, it's perfect, so we throw our hands, or it's not perfect, so we throw our hands up. Instead of thinking, no, I'm gonna move forward in this. And I'm gonna grow in these areas. I can even think of things I have struggled with. Believe it or not, I do have a temper. And Matt has the ability, somehow, to press that button better than anybody else I know. [Matt] Well, I mean, just on a boring Saturday. I mean if there's nothing else to do. [Lisa] Press my buttons. So I'll find myself reacting to him, and I will stop myself literally mid-sentence and go, wait, it's like, yep, like okay. [Aaron] That's a good-- [Lisa] What I wanted say was. I didn't quite the first two seconds or minutes, however the situation was, wasn't right. But checking myself and going, okay, but that's not who I wanna be. That's how I was, but that's not who I wanna be anymore, so I wanna try again. And giving each other that grace to grow, but being determined to change and not say, this is not who I wanna be; I do want us to be loving close. [Matt] And for me, I think I would boil it down. I mean, that's a huge subject, right? And there's so many facets to it. But I would boil it down to this. The fundamental understanding that my marriage is what God is doing in the world. It's not what I'm doing in the world. It's not the thing that I have; I have a marriage. My marriage is what God is doing in the world. The Bible says what God has put together let no man put asunder. This is something God is doing, and so if you have that basic, fundamental faith about this relationship, it's a foundation and a starting point for moving forward. [Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. This has just been, like Aaron said, incredible and inspiring. If people were inspired today and they want to follow you more, can you just remind them where they can find you? [Lisa] We have a podcast, Faithful Life. And we'd love to have you join us over there. And we also, both of us have a website. Matt has faithfulman.com, and I have club31women.com. [Matt] And then you're also on Instagram, club31women and faithfulman, on Instagram, so you can find us there as well. [Aaron] Everyone listening, definitely go follow them, they are golden. [Jennifer] If you like Marriage after God, and you like what we share, you're definitely gonna like them. [Aaron] We actually just steal all of our content from them and repurpose them. They have been integral in the growth and maturity in our life. And so, we appreciate you guys. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Aaron] And we thank you for not only sharing with our audience now, but for sharing with us over the last five years. [Lisa And Matt] We love you guys. [Aaron] That we've known you guys. So, we're gonna close out with a prayer. Jennifer's gonna pray and then, yeah. [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry, and the impact we have in each other's lives and in this world just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order, or if we are not unified, please help us to change our course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point other to you, and may you be glorified. In Jesus' name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Matt] Amen. [Aaron] So, thank you all for listening today. I hope this blessed you guys. And as always, we want you guys to have a conversation about this. Go on a date, and discuss the things that we talked about today. We have, what is it, 11 more episodes in this series. 11 more interviews to come. They're gonna be awesome; please stay tuned. We look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageafterGod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Ezra Taft Benson clearly wasn't a fan of civil rights and called it a communist conspiracy.  But his counselor in the First Presidency, Gordon B. Hinckley, made peace with the NAACP and helped name a state holiday in Utah after King.  Dr. Matt Harris tells more about Hinckley's effects on Benson. https://youtu.be/t5GcWjEC-5k Matt: For years, Dr. King's been called a commie. Latter-day Saints of at least two generations grew up with this sort of thinking. So, what do you do about this? Well, when the Martin Luther King holiday was proposed in the early '80's, of course, the State of Utah just recoiled in horror. They can't support the Martin Luther King holiday. The idea was, not only is he a communist, but he's an adulterer and all the other things that these people had said about him. So, what happened was Utah decided they were going to call it Human Rights Day instead of Martin Luther King Day. There are a few other states that had gone that path, too. ... Matt: Hinckley is privately befriending members of the NAACP. He's doing a lot of stuff behind the scenes to really undo, quite frankly, what Elder Benson had spent much of his apostolic ministry doing: denouncing civil rights and Martin Luther King. So, President Hinckley is doing much of this stuff on his own. To finish the story here, that President Hinckley gives his support to rename the holiday after Martin Luther King. He tells the church lobbyist, he says, "Why don't you go up to the hill and let them know that the church supports the renaming of Martin Luther King Day?" He'd been working in private with NAACP leaders. They have been pushing him hard. "Why can't the church support this? Because you know, if the church supports this, that the legislature will fall in line." President Hinckley thought, "Oh my goodness, why don't we support this? It serves no purpose in the 21st century, or as the 21st century approaches to not rename this after this iconic civil rights leader." So, President Hinckley tells the church lobbyist, "Go up to the hill and tell them that the church supports the changing of the holiday." It was done. And so in 2000, Utah became, I think it was like the 49th or 50th state in the union to recognize Martin Luther King holiday. What that means is that President Hinckley, yet again, is trying to modernize the church and to let Latter-day Saints know that, it's unchristian to demean people of color and to call them a commie, and to deny them civil rights. That's really, I think, one of, in my humble opinion, one of President Hinckley's most enduring legacies is to really open up a new day for race relations with the church. As far as I know, because of President Hinckley, the NAACP has maintained cordial relations with the church hierarchy, because of him. He also makes some interesting comments about Sheri Dew's biography of President Benson. Matt: If you look at Elder Benson's biography that Sheri Dew did, that was published in 1987--this was during the early years of his presidency, which is really interesting if you look at this. And this is not a fault to Sheri Dew--otherwise I think it's actually a pretty fine biography. But there's no mention of the Birch Society, Robert Welch, none of that stuff. These guys were extremely close. And to not mention that in a biography is really extraordinary. Again, not a criticism of Sister Dew, but clearly somebody had prevailed upon her that, you know, "We're trying to move beyond this stuff. This isn't good for business." GT: So, you think she purposely was told to leave that out? Matt:  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm just speculating of course, but she had access to his papers and she knows how close they are. Check out our conversation, and don't forget to purchase Matt's new book on Benson called Thunder from the Right.  My copy arrived on Tuesday and I'm just digging into it!   Gordon B. Hinckley made outreach to the NAACP and helped undo the harm of President Benson...

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Knox Robinson is the Founder of First Run. Knox has spent time training alongside Mo Farah in Ethiopia, Eliud Kipchoge in Kenya and attended the Breaking2 Nike Project in May 2017. We dive into all of these topics with Knox in this podcast espisode. Don’t forget to check out our new book: Eliud Kipchoge – History’s fastest marathoner: An insight into the Kenyan life that shapes legends — — — — — — Podast Transcription (Matt) Thanks very much, Knox Robinson, for joining me today no this Sweat Elite podcast. Knox has a fascinating story, he’s spent some time training with Mo Farah and the Mudane – I think it’s pronounced – group in Ethiopia. (Knox) Mudane, Mudane. (Matt) Mudane? (Knox) Yeah, the president Mudane, yeah. (Matt) Mudane, yeah, got to get that right… Before the London marathon last year, and he spent some time with  Eliud Kipchoge in Kenya, as well, as attended the Monza sub-2 Nike event last year in Italy. So, thanks very much for joining me today, Knox. (Knox) I’m excited to be rapping with you, for sure. (Matt) Cool. I guess we can get started by talking a little bit more about yourself and your background. You were a runner in high school and in college, you attended Wake Forest University and got yourself to, I guess, a decent standard before taking some time away from the sport, but then, you were drawn back, I guess, some ten years later, or thereabouts. I guess it would be good to talk a little bit more about, I guess, what took you away, and then what drew you back, and where you’re at now. (Knox) You know, I think, you know, really, what happened was… It’s tough. I mean, like, legions of runners will tell you how hard it is to make that leap from a, you know, passionate high school runner to walking on a top level program. I mean, Wake Forest University, in the mid to late 90s, when I walked on, was – for a very small school – had an incredibly credential distance program for this moment in time. I mean, when I walked into the locker room my first year, half of the United States junior cross country team was there, in the locker room. So, you know… Like, we had guys in there, you know, beyond all Americans – we had, just, a bunch of dudes who loved getting it cracking, and on the women’s side, there was also great athletes as well. So, it was amazing, and it was a tight knit group. I kind of, on a good day, I was scratching at that 10th man position, but it was also really challenging to kind of keep going and stay inspired when, you know, you’re… You’re just, kind of, like, 18, 19 years old, figuring it out, you’re not there on an athletic scholarship, and, you know, there’s a bunch of other interests exploding around you, and so… It got to the point where it was kind of make or break, and I kind of had a… A couple of, sort of, like, disappointing, kind of, moments on my own accord. And so, I just, you know, stopped running. Now, I’m so deep in it, all this time later, that it’s weird to think that I just made the decision to stop. But that’s what I love about what I’m doing now, is, like, I want to kind of share back with, like, young people, that your own passion for running and your own pursuit – whether the competitive or non-competitive, or performance-based, or just, you know, feeling good about yourself and your body… It doesn’t really have to be dependant on university scholarship and being part of a team. You can do it on a team, you can do it on your own, you can form your own team, you can form your own crew, and I hope to share with the folks that you can, kind of, do it for the course of your life. It’s not just something you’re going to do in your school age years. (Matt) Absolutely. And I think… I don’t want to… I guess, before I go into the quote that I read from you, I did, I guess, discover your content, for the most part I’ve heard the name before, but… On the Rich Roll podcast. And on the Rich Roll podcast, you had a great quote that said ‘Running is act of religion…’ – sorry – ‘…of rebellion.’ And you go on to, sort of, talk about how, you know, nobody wants you to run, you’re supposed to just be a digit, a one of… A one or a zero in the code, and you’re not supposed to get out and think for yourself. And I think that that’s… It’s very, very true. And you can, sort of, go and do this on your own. And, as you just sort of pointed it out, you don’t have to have university scholarship to, sort of, prove that. (Knox) Yeah. I mean, to put it in a… To put it in a better way, less, like, strident way, like a friend of mine once told me: ‘You’re only one… You’re only young once, but you can be immature for the rest of your life.’ So… Definitely… You’re definitely only young once, but you can definitely run wild for a really long time. (Matt) Absolutely. And you, yourself, have ran quite a fast half marathon yourself. (Knox) I just ran 70 minutes. I just ran 70 minutes in a half, and… (Matt) That’s quick. (Knox) At Valencia, earlier this year. (Matt) Alright! Oh, I was there. (Knox) Oh. It was incredible. (Matt) It was very windy that day. (Knox) It was windy! That’s what I’m saying. Everybody can talk junk, you know, talk trash, like, ‘Oh, it was windy…’ It rained tw… It’s only a half, rained twice… (Matt) And… Yes. (Knox) And it was windy cross and in your face, and, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever raced in Europe, but, like, European dudes don’t play. They’re mean. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) They’re out for blood. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) You know, it’s not like cross country jabbing you in the ribs – these guys are, like… These guys have, like, triangle formations, they’re talking in front of you as they’re running, like, 70 minutes for the half… They’re surgning… It’s definitely very, very competitive in the way that, like, that sort of sports culture in Europe is. And so it’s awesome to just, kind of, like, catch a plane from New York and pop into the race, and, yeah, I popped a big one. I was… That was wild. (Matt) Yeah, and I think… (Knox) So… That was a high watermark for me, for sure. (Matt) Oh, yeah. That’s awesome. And you ran 70 minutes, but I actually didn’t realize it was Valencia, and being there that day, I think most people ran at least 30 seconds to a minute slower than their potential, or their personal best, most people. So… (Knox) I was 70 low, I was 70 low. I would have… (Matt) You’ve got a… Yeah, you’ve got… People want to go here. (Knox) I was thinking… I would have leaned in for 69, but I was finishing up with two younger guys, and they were really struggling, so, like, I didn’t want them to ruin my finish line photo, I didn’t want them to, like, head to the side, so I was, like, ‘You go on ahead, let me just… I’ll give you a little room so I look cute on the finish line.’ (Matt) I’m impressed you were thinking this credibly at the end of a half marathon, well done. (Knox) Look, times are going to come and go, but, like, a good photo… You need to, like, make sure it’s crispy. (Matt) Yeah. It was super windy between, I think, what – 10 and 16 kilometer mark, but… Yeah. That’s awesome. (Knox) Yeah. (Matt) So, I guess, I think what most people listening to this podcast would be super interested in would be about your time spent in Ethiopia, with Mo Farah’s training group, before the London marathon last yeah. And, although I sort of know the backstory about how that came about, and how you were asked to go, and, sort of, what happened there, I think it would be really cool to talk about all of this over the next, sort of, 10 to 15 minutes, because it is quite fascinating how you ended up there. And, sort of, some of the stories, kind of, about that. For example, you know, the story about the… About the coffee, how they went to get some coffee one day and the coffee machine wasn’t working, and just the general culture around there and how… I guess what you went in expecting it would be like, and then what it was actually like. So, it would be really cool for us to chat a little bit about that. (Knox) Yeah. I mean, it was… It was… I don’t want to call it a fluke, but it was just kind of like a hilarious chain of events before the New York City marathon, I was kind of lucky to kind of be one of the last guys accepted into the Sub-Elite field, so I rode out on the Sub-Elite bus to the start line of the New York City marathon, and was in the holding area with the Elite guys, so everybody is in this sort of indoor track area on Staten Island before the race, a couple of hours before the race. Super chill environment, everybody’s running around on the track, men and women, elites and sub-elites, and I was… I had kind of been on a several months’ meditation wave, so I go off to the side, I meditate, I come back, and then, when I come back to the track, I’m not really friends with any, like, the elite runners on the New York City scene, you know? They’re in, like, the rich guy clubs, and they work on Wall Street and all that kind of stuff, and I’m sort of, like… You know, an older black dude with, like, a chipped tooth and, you know, kind hangs out in Brooklyn, so… I was, like, ‘I’m just going to go hang out with, like, the African dudes. (Matt) Which is a good move, which is a great move… (Knox) Like, I’m black, so, I’ll just hang out, and the black guy is, like, ‘Hey, is this, like…This is the black section, let me hang out with the brothers.’ So, I go over there, and I knew Abdi, so at least go over and sit by Abdi, I’m stretching… Meb’s over there, Meb, kind of, like, says ‘What’s up?’ And then, Kamworor’s there, I think Stanley Biwott was there, I knew Wilson Kipsang… (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) From meeting him in Berlin a few weeks… A few months before, when he dropped out. So… I knew some of the guys. I just, like, dropped myself down and hung out, and then Abdi sort of – to, like, make conversation – was, like, ‘Hey, man…’ And I’m thinking about New York, I’m thinking about, like, what I’m going to execute on First Avenue, I’m, like, in my zone, I’m trying to be cool. Not trying to, like, fan out, and, like, take selfies with these guys. And Abdi’s like, ‘Hey, man, why don’t you come out to Ethiopia? I’m going to be there training with Mo again, Mo ready for London.’ And I was, like, ‘Yeah. Cool.’ And I just left it at that. I was, like, ‘Yeah. Cool. I will.’ I said ‘Yeah. Cool.’ So… So, then, I mean, fast forward, I just booked a flight and, like, went out to the camp, which is probably north of  Addis Ababa, in this small little hamlet, this little town called Sululta, where Haile Gebrselassie’s complex is, and then, across the street, of course, is Kenenisa Bekele’s complex, or his old place that some Chinese guys bought. So, yeah, showed up in the middle of the night, they didn’t have a room for me as planned. I went across the street and stayed at Kenny B’s place… Kenny’s old place. That was one of the worst places I’ve ever slept at in my life, and I’ve slept at a lot of tough places… (Matt) This is Kenny Bekele’s accommodation? (Knox) Yeah, but it hadn’t been, like, kept up in a couple of years, because he sold it to, like, some chinese investors, and didn’t maintain it. And now he’s building a new place across the street, and that’s where Mo trains. (Matt) OK. (Knox) So, Mo trains at Kenenisa’s track, which is next door to Haile Gebrselassie’s hotel and track. (Matt) Right. OK. (Knox) So, Mo is staying at Haile’s pace, and training at Kenenisa’s place. (Matt) Big names there. (Knox) It was crazy, no, it was crazy. And then, like, you know… Met… Guys were just driving up… It was just… It was just… It’s a wild town, it’s a wild town, to think that much elite, sort of, talent is, like, in and out as much as… Goat herders are there, and, like, a church is, like, doing ceremonies in the middle of the night, all  night… It was just really a wild scene. Very, very different from the peaceful, sort of, environment that Eliud Kipchoge trains in. But I think Mo Farah really thrives on energy and excitement, for sure. (Matt) Yeah. OK. So that’s how it came about, and I guess you’ve introduced us to, like, how… What it was like coming in to Sululta… (Knox) Yeah. It’s Abdi’s fault. (Matt) Which I’d like to talk a little bit more about… (Knox) We can blame it on Abdi. Abdi’s fault. (Matt) Yeah, OK, so you were staying in this little shack. (Knox) Yeah. (Matt) Across the road from Bekele’s track. (Knox) Yeah. (Matt) I guess, what was the deal then, like…? (Knox) And then I couldn’t do that, so… (Matt) Alright, you changed… (Knox) The next day, then, I moved in… The next day I moved into Haile Gebrselassie’s, sort of, hotel spot. And that was cool. So, I stayed next door to Mo, Abdi, Bashir Abdi, who just got second in the 10,000 for Belgium at the European championships, and then, like, a bunch of young Somali guys, as well, in the camp. (Matt) Awesome. OK, and, I guess, what was it… Yeah, what was it like next to these guys and being able to… I’m assuming, you’ve mentioned in podcasts and to me before we started recording this that you attended some training runs and some training sessions, so it would be really cool to learn a little bit more about what that experience was like. (Knox) Yeah, I mean, I lived… I mean, I lived… Yeah, I don’t want to say I lived with them, because we were in the same room, but I lived next door, you know? Like… And I ran with these guys two or three times a day. I will say that I was in pretty good shape, obviously. A month after that I ran 70 minutes and a half, but… And I had spent some time at altitude… The same altitude, what, 8,000 feet or something like that, 8,000 – 9,000 feet in Mexico the month before, so the altitude wasn’t a big shock, but I will say that these guys, on the easy runs, definitely… It was definitely a bit rough. (Matt) You said it was also dead silent, too, in the… (Knox) Pardon? (Matt) You also said that it was very quiet in the easy runs, in the Rich Roll podcast? (Knox) That’s the thing, yeah, like… You know, you’d expect… And again, when you’re in school, or your hanging out in your little running crew, or even… Honestly, you know, when you go on on your long run, on the weekends, and you’re running, whatever, 20, 22, 23 miles… You’re catching up on the night before, you’re talking about this and that, you’re unloading on the week, all that kind of stuff… Then, on the easy runs, with these guys? They didn’t talk at all. Like, these runs, at a casual pace for these guys, the runs were in complete silence. And that was, like, really unnerving, that the easy runs are quiet. On other hand, the most intense track workouts that I witnessed – and It’s not like I was stepping on the track and running with these guys – but they had such a good vibe… Like, you would have thought these guys were just, like, messing around and, like, in the off season, the way the vibe was, and then, they’re stepping on the track and they’re running, like, 4 minute miles at altitude, like, on the track… And, like, dudes are falling down, you know, Mo is just, like, chewing through his pacers and, you know, the coach is on the bicycle trying to keep up, and… Meanwhile, while this is happening, they’re playing, like, Drake on their Beats Pill, or, you know, Mo is asking people to take pictures of, like, his abs and video on the iPhones, so he can post it later on his Instagram… (Matt) Yeah, he got you his phone and just said… (Knox) And he’s still ripping through reps, like, wildly. Honestly, it’s just crazy. (Matt) That’s awesome. There’s so many things I wanted to dive into there… (Knox) Yeah, yeah… (Matt) I guess, firstly, I’d like to know – before we talk about the track styles – when you were talking about the easy runs and there were, sort of, quiet. They were quiet, but you also said before that they were rough. I mean, what sort of pace are they guys punching up there? And, mind you, before we get into that, I guess the altitude is… What, it’s 2,700 meters, which… Or thereabouts, which is some… What’s that in feet? (Knox) Close to 8,000. So, yeah. Addis Ababa is, you said, 2,700 meters. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Yeah, so, I mean, that’s… That’s just casual running for them, at, like, 2,700 – 2,800 meters. And then, you know, sometimes on the long runs, they might do, like, an uphill long run, or you know, there’s a hill or a mountain right next to the training camp that these guys didn’t do, but a lot of athletes would run right up, and that’s, you know, close to 10,000 feet, so 3,200 meters or something like that. (Matt) Oh. (Knox) That’s… That’s pretty intense. I mean, if you look at… I don’t know what a lot of other places around the world are, but as far as in the United States, even a lot of these training locales in Colorado are much more casual altitude than that. Like, closer… (Matt) Oh, yeah. They’re closer to 2,000 maybe… (Knox) Closer to 64… 6,400 feet or something like that, not to diss any of my friends in Colorado, but… This was not that. This was, like, getting up and eating oatmeal at 8,000 feet, and then, you know, going out and… You know, like I said, I was in shape. I mean, I even went out and ran, like, my little 20-mile Boston marathon training run on my little Boston course before I went. And I was, like, ripping off pace, I was fit. And I went out to Ethiopia, and man… These guys were running, I don’t know… These guys were running quick on their easy runs, you know? Even their jog was just kind of, like… I was having to work. It was embarrassing, because I was in good shape, and they’re looking at me, like, ‘Ehh…’ You know? The only thing that saved me was, like, going out on a, you know, on a long run, and… Because I looked like I was dragging. I was tired, I didn’t look real, obviously I’m not stepping in their workout, so they didn’t know what it was. And when we went out on long runs, 20 milers, or 22 milers, the fact that I was able to do a 20 mile run in two hours, two hours and, you know, one minute with, like, no support, like, minimal fueling and hydration, at 8,000 feet or 9,000 feet, they’re like, ‘Ohh? OK, OK. Oh, OK. OK.’ Because, when it came to just the easy miles, the 7, 8, 9, 10 miles, man that… It was rough. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) But that’s the level… That’s the shape he’s in. I mean, Mo… Mo… Mo… Mo Farah is in shape this year, for sure, as you’ve seen by him… His run at London and then his run at the Great North Run, and then… I mean, I’m excited to see what he’s going to do in Chicago this weekend. (Matt) Yeah, yeah. It will be interesting to see how he goes there and whether or not he takes some more time off his… Off his personal best. But… (Knox) For sure. (Matt) Yeah, now thanks for, sort of, painting that picture about how it… How… What it was like to do the, the… The more aerobic running with them, and I guess it would be cool to touch a little bit more on what the track sessions were like and what it felt like to be there, and… I love the story that you told on the Rich Roll podcast, about how Mo was just, like, ‘Hey, man, can you… Can you get my phone from my bag, and here’s my password, and… Just open it up, take photos…’ (Knox) Right! This is, you know, like… This is not even in the beginning of the workout, this is, like, halfway through the workout, during, like, a… During the recovery. He’s, like, ‘Hey, mate – can you go in my bag and get my phone, the red phone.’ He had, like… He had two iPhone Xs, like… I… I… I’m from New York, I’ve got cool luggage, you know, I work with Nike. I’ve got, like… I’ve got the prototype of the Peg Turbos, I’ve got a couple of pairs of 4%s in the bag… You know. I’m cool. But I didn’t get the iPhone X before it went out. I didn’t want to, like, drop it, I didn’t want to get robbed… Whatever. So, I go out to Ethiopia, Mo’s got two iPhone Xs! I was, like, ‘Oh, man. This guy is embarrassing me, like… ‘ He’s asking me to go in his bag, gives me the passcode, and then, like, wants me to take, like, photos and videos of him as he’s doing his workout, so he can post something to IG later. And then, after I did it, he didn’t even use them. Like, he didn’t even think the photos and the videos are that good. Like, he didn’t, like… I failed. That’s the worst part. (Matt) Oh, no. (Knox) I haven’t… I haven’t told anybody that, but he didn’t any use any of the stuff I took. I was, like… He’s like, ‘Oh, yeah, oh… OK. Yeah, cool. Not bad, yeah.’ I was, like, ‘Oh, come on!’ The angle, I’m laying down on the track trying to do artistic shots as he goes by, yeah… He didn’t really respect my… My… My social media. My social media… My social media technique. He didn’t really respect it, so… It’s OK. (Matt) Awesome. (Knox) But that was incredible, man. Like, just… It just made me think, like, you know, usually I think that an elite has got, like, to approach the most serious sessions with the most seriousness of purpose, or the most serious demeanor. But, you know, you’ve got to choose the demeanor that works for you. And I realised it’s about creating a good environment and creating a good vibe, and having good energy. And then, that’s going to push you to better performances, rather than some real intense situation where, you know, you’re kind of on the wrong side of pressure and… And… And… And, and, and… And Intensity. You know what I mean? (Matt) Absolutely. (Knox) It’s better to create a vibe and then just to, like, have Mo get stoked, and then tear up the track. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Rather than just kind of, like, ‘Can I do it? Oh, I’m going to run and get this impossible workout and then fail!’ Like… The other thing is this guy loves… And this is what I wanted to bring back and also share with people in my group, Black Roses, but also with other folks in the running world at large – like, this guy loves the challenge. Like, you know, you’re used to it. People dread the long run, like, ‘Oh, I’m worried about my long run this weekend. Oh, I can’t believe I have to do this long run this weekend.’ And we always speak about our biggest challenges, I mean, as regular people, like, in negative terms. You know? But Mo would be sitting around at lunch on Tuesday, already excited and chatting about the long run on Sunday. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Like, at one point, he was pitching the coach, he was, like, ‘Oh, Sunday we might go to this other place and run with the Ethiopian group.’ And the coach says, like, ‘No. No, no, no, no, no. No.’ Because, right? Mo’s excited to go to, like, another location for the long run, and do the long run with, like, the Ethiopian national team, and Ethiopian elites. (Matt) Right. That’s really interesting. (Knox) Rather than my ‘hiding at a camp’, or my ‘training is secret’, or whatever. He wanted to go and have the Sunday long run with other guys and the best in the world, like, away from cameras, away from whatever – just for the battle. Like, the light in his eyes that went up, when he was, like, trying to get his coach to let him go run with these guys, and the coach is, like, ‘No. You’re not going to do that. Because, as soon as you guys get out there, you’re going to start going, and then you’re going to start going crazy…’ And Mo’s like, ‘No, no! It’s going to be chill!’ He was actually asking the coach, he was telling him, like, ‘No, it’s going to be fine. It’s just friendly, we’re just going to go and have a good time.’ And the coach is, like, ‘No way.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, this dude not only is, like, it’s Tuesday, and he’s already chomping at the bit for the long run…’ (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) ‘… but also he wants to go and race these other dudes that he’ll outrun, with these other dudes that he races at the olympics and championships, and the marathon.’ (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) He was, like, wanting to do that. For fun. (Matt) Just for fun. That’s awesome. (Knox) Just for the battle. Just for the war. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Like, that was inspiring. So, I’m trying to, like, really come back and, like, change the own culture around my own group that everyone, like, gets excited for the long run on the weekends, and people get excited, you hit them with a workout and then they’re, like, ‘Yeah, let’s do… Yeah! Alright! Yeah!’ You know? I want that excitement. (Matt) It’s… (Knox) Because that’s going to change the vibe and that’s going to change the results. (Matt) Absolutely. It’s a really interesting topic, this, actually. Because  I just spent, I guess, the better part of the decade living in Europe. And, other than Finland, for the most part, and in that country – I know it’s quite similar in other countries in Europe – it was very common for the… For it, sort of, essentially, to be the exact opposite of you just said, in a way that people would train on their own, they wouldn’t want to train with other people because they had a set, programmed, that they wanted to follow, from their coach. And it was almost, like… I was in Helsinki, it was almost like there was quite a lot of good runners around the town, but they were also training on their own. And the idea of getting together and doing something like you’ve just described, like, a whole bunch of guys that are all competing against each other just to, like, punch at a hard tempo around… That was, like, no way would anyone ever come up with that or do that. And it’s just… It’s not even a thought. Like… So it was really quite interesting that that’s how Mo was, sort of… That’s how Mo is. And that’s how he sees it, that’s what he wants to do. And it’s… Yeah. It’s really quite interesting. It’s… And I guess more people could do that. (Knox) I mean, it’s understandable. I mean, I come out of that, and, like, keeping workouts a secret, and training on your own… But it’s, like… And it…(audio skips, 37:29) Plan, and it doesn’t mean that, like, Mo doesn’t follow a schedule. But as, you know, as an elite, there’s only a certain number of workouts left to do. There’s only… I mean, there’s only a certain kind of workout to do. There’s only a certain handful of approaches, you know? (Matt) Absolutely. (Knox) So, what are you really going to do to get that little edge? Especially when we know that edge is .5 seconds or .2 seconds… You know? (Matt) Yeah. Exactly. Right. (Knox) What is that edge? It’s mentality and experience, and, like… I don’t know. Of course, we love that cliche of, like, the loneliness of the long distance runner. We love that. But I love seeing Mo, you know, having a whole training group of friends, and when they weren’t training, they sat around and listened to music, and laughed about a bunch of stuff, and talked about soccer and… you know? Or football, rather. Or whatever. And just, like, had a good time. And then, when it came to really go to that… To the highest heights, it was… (Matt) Game on. (Knox) It was game on. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) It was, you know… It was fascinating. (Matt) Yeah. I really found it interesting, too, that on the Rich Roll podcast, that you spoke about how they didn’t ever know what the training session was ahead of them until they were, like, warmed up in track. (Knox) Right. (Matt) Yeah. And how, you sort of said yourself, all these, you know… Nothing against all the people that have these, sort of, training programs scheduled out for months on end, and so on. But these guys, like, I think you said it well, like, Mo is thinking in his head, it could be one of many things before the training session, and that’s… You were talking about how that could be used as an advantage. (Knox) Yeah, had to step back and think about it, because it’s, like… Like I said, I wasn’t stepping on the track and, like, jumping in his workouts, you know? A couple of times, the guys are like, ‘Are you jumping in on this?’ When I was, like, ‘Come on, man.’ So, guys were cool. Wasn’t like I just, like, you know… But I was on the sidelines, and I was just watching, because it was better to… It was an education. When are you going to get to see one of the best guys in the world at the office, you know? (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Day in and day out. So, it was just fascinating to watch that… That… That particular approach, you know what I mean? (Matt) Absolutely. You also said that you had a lot of people after the trip not so much ask about the workouts, but they were asking about, like, the diet. And the… I think you said it was, like, a peanut butter, like a recipe or something… Something like that. (Knox) Yeah, I mean, it was cool because… Well, yeah. I just think that, like, in these days, we love… I mean, Eliud Kipchoge is so inspiring. His words are so inspiring, his life, his… His… His, just, entire aura is… Is super inspirational and aspirational. And then, Mo’s personality is infectious and what he’s done for the culture, you know… What Abdi’s done, like, all these guys are great personalities, and I like… I like… I like learning about that. I like studying… Studying that. And so, you know, a lot of times, Mo’s coach was really afraid that I was going to, like, leak this or that workout… You know, I Was taking notes or whatever, writing down the workouts… Was worried that I was going to, like, leak a certain kind of workout, and I understand that. It’s intellectual property, and Mo is heading up for London marathon, and Bekele and Kipchoge were entered in the race. So, I understand. It was in… The pressure was on. But, on the other hand, you don’t… No one ever asked me about a workout. People wanted to know what the diet was, people wanted to know about Mo drinking coffee, Ethiopian coffee, which is, of course, like, an incredible coffee experience… People wanted to know about the strength that they have in the camps out there, peanut butter tea and the recipe for peanut butter tea… So, you know, it’s really an interesting moment right now that we’re in, that people want to know not, like, what it is, but how it is. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) You know? (Matt) Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thanks, thanks so much for sharing a good 20 minutes there of, you know, your experiences i Ethiopia. I think it’s a perfect time to sort of transition to your time spent with Eliud Kipchoge in Kenya. (Knox) Yeah. (Matt) So, I’m actually not that… So much familiar with this experience that you had, but you did go to Kenya once, so… (Knox) Mhm. (Matt) And then, you did spend some time in Kaptagat, as did we, around  a year ago now, training alongside him before Berlin. I mean, it was really cool to learn a bit more about how you… About your experience in Kaptagat and training alongside that global NN Running Team. (Knox) Well, yeah. And I, you know… Much respect to the global NN Running Team, and  I definitely wasn’t’, like, training alongside of them, and did… It was much different from the Mo Farah experience. I was there, sort of, independently, and then with… In Kaptagat, I was there as part of a Nike team, you know, working on a project just to, kind of, like, connect with Eliud around that Flyprint innovation, 3D printed shoe that came out earlier in the year for a few elites to race in… So, it was more of just a chance to kind of connect with Eliud off the radar, Geoffrey, Abel… And then, also, like, I had connected with Patrick Sang, who’s a master coach, and just a master human being. And so, having spent time with coach Patrick Sang the year before in Berlin, and then being able to connect with him back in Kaptagat was an experience that brought all his training and coaching philosophies and arguments to life. So, it was more just a sort of an overall, cohesive experience, and a chance to witness that rarified element, and environment of Kenyan distance training, like, first person. (Matt) Yeah. For sure. I guess you’re such a… You’re very good at describing and, I guess, painting a picture, and I think it would be really cool to spend maybe a minute now describing what it’s like in Kaptagat. And coming Eldoret and then what… I guess what the little village is like. (Knox) Yeah, I mean, you’ve seen the visuals, you know it’s just, like, one highway coming into a town, it’s like that through much of East Africa, as so much Chinese investment is helping build roads and like, just, to really kind of ease with the export of natural resources… So there’s, like, a… You know, a main two-lane highway, blacked up highway, but Eliud’s camp, the NN Running camp, or the Global Sports… global Sports Communication, right? GSC camp, where Eliud’s lived for… Since his late teens, or for the past 14 or 15 years, if not more… Was really incredible. People know it’s super simple and austere, cinder block construction. But, at the same time, they also do have solar panels and solar energy that was installed last year, so really kind of looking at a well thought out training environment for the express purpose of, like, pursuing excellence in long distance running. Athletes would go out and, of course, you’ve seen the photos of them tearing up these tracks and these amazing chain groups, star-studded training groups on the track, and then you’ve seen, you know, or heard stories of the long runs where 200 people, 250 people show up for the long run. But back in the camp, it’s really amazing, it’s just the best athletes in the world sitting around on plastic lawn chairs, kind of checking their phones, playing, like, the latest music from, you know, their scene, like, on their phones, doing some dances, and then, you know, sipping tea and just kind of joking and giving each other a tough time. A lot of jokes and revelry, and then, obviously, because it’s a self-sustaining operation, all the athletes in the camp are assigned different duties and… And details. So, on one day, Eliud Kipchoge and Geoffrey Kamworor might be tasked to clean all the trains. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Even if they’re, you know, the best runners in the world, world champions in the half-marathon and, you know, world record holders in the marathon and all that, so… Dudes still have to clean the toilets. It’s super humbling experience. And the other thing is, even though Eliud’s the… An elder in the camp, he doesn’t always, like, set the schedule or set the responsabilites. Sometimes it’s the younger athletes who do the assignment. That’s how, you know, horisontal the structure is. That, like, everybody has a part in everything. So, even the younger athletes have to have not just labour, but also the responsibility when it comes to assigning duties and stuff in the camp. (Matt) That’s really interesting. So, how long did you spend at… There? (Knox) I was there a week. A little over a week. (Matt) And did you manage to get to Iten? (Knox) No, I was just in Eldoret. I was supposed to go and have dinner with Allie Kieffer. Do you know about Allie Kieffer? She is a super exciting runner on the US scene who surprised a bunch of people with a big finish at New York City marathon last year, after kind of working her way into elite status later on, and now she’s really been tearing up the roads over the past year. So, she shoutout Allie Kieffer, and she’s poised for, like, a big New York City marathon coming up in a few weeks. But, anyways, Allie was over there, training at Iten, and I don’t know if she was living with Betsy Saina, but yeah, she was, like, ‘Ah come over for dinner…’ But I really underestimated how hard it is to get from Eldoret to Iten. They’re not that far apart as the crow flies on Google, but… Or even in an Uber. But, the reality of transport between the two places is a little tough, so… I didn’t make it out there. (Matt) OK. Good, well, yeah. Thank you once again for sharing that, stories about that experience. And, I guess, a couple more things would be good to talk about. First one is, you attended the Monza Nike Sub 2… I guess, what was the official name of the race? So, I’m mind blanking, but it was the… (Knox) Well, officially, it wasn’t a race. (Matt) Yeah, the challenge, I guess. Event. (Knox) What was it? It was an experience. (Matt) Experience, yeah. (Knox) It was more, like… (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) Woodstock wasn’t a concert, you know what I mean? Jimi Hendrix said ‘Have you ever been experienced?’ Monza was an experience. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) So, Monza was an attempt to see if… An attempt to break two hours in over 26,2 miles, I suppose. That’s how you would put it cleanly. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) But yeah, it was incredible. I mean, obviously, you know, it was on a Formula 1, a very famous Formula 1 track in Monza, Italy, and along with Eliud Kipchoge, who else did we have there? It was… (Matt) Tadese? (Knox) Zersenay Tadese and… (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) The young Ethiopian guy… (Matt) I don’t remember his name, but he was the one that… Did he drop out or did he run? He was a little bit far back… (Knox) No, everybody finished. (Matt) They all finished. (Knox) Those 3 guys finished, and then they had a team of all star pacers, so even though the pacers were incredible – Bernard Lagat, Chris Derrick, Lopez Lomong… So it was really… Again, to use the word, the phrase ‘star-studded’, it was a super kind of crazy experience to watch this level of execution, just in the pursuit of an ideal. (Matt) Absolutely. And you mentioned how, I guess, how motivating and inspiring the event was, especially towards the end, and you mentioned that you shed a tear towards the end of that race, and I guess I would have been absolutely fascinated… (Knox) Yeah; I mean, at this point, I have to admit, I did get misty eyed. .. (Matt) It was raining, so, you could have caught a hardest… (Knox) Perhaps it was the high dew point, it may have been the dew point from the morning… But there was noticeable fogging in my sunglasses, and there was no reason for me to be wearing sunglasses, because it was cloudy and raining. No, but just to watch Eliud Kipchoge really commit – and I mean that in, like, a bunch of senses of the word, to commit his spirit and his body, and his mind, to this unprecedented task was beautiful to watch for most of it. But then, in the end, it was so excruciating as he was, like, straining, you know? And it’s tough to related this to other people who don’t have kids, but, you know, when you’re watching your kids figure out life, when you’re watching your kids, you know… You and I, we have success and failure perhaps an equal measure. And we’re figuring out for our own, and we don’t ask anybody to feel sorry for us. But to watch your kids try and fail, whether that’s try to ride a bicycle and fall, or, you know, make a team, or, you know, run for student government president, or in the spelling bee, or even just, you know, falling down at the playground and skinning their knee – it’s tough to watch another human being attempt something that they’ve never done before, and to be fearless, and doing that pursued. And that’s what it was like watching Eliud Kipchoge come so close to breaking two hours for 26,2 miles. It was in the heart. And to watch him finish, I… I cried. And then, immediately after he finished, I thought ‘Man, this guy did it because he thought he could do it. (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) And he didn’t believe in any barriers. I mean, Nike marketing aside and, you know, the shoe and the preparation, the science behind it, and then the empirical conditions and the marginal gains… Man, I just missed… I’m finished, and I thought ‘This guy doesn’t believe in limits. This guy doesn’t believe… This guy thought he could do it. And then, in the next instance, I was, like, ‘What’s holding me back from my potential? What’s holding me back from my goals? (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) And yeah, I don’t even mean, like, my running goals. Sure, my running goals are, you know, I could train that much harder, you know… I can go on the wagon that much sooner… You know what I mean? (Matt) Yeah. (Knox) I could kind of, like, scuttle various aspects of my life and commit to something in running. But also, on a life level, what’s keeping me from being a better father and a better partner? And a better friend? And a better son? And a better brother? You know? Like, what’s keeping me from being a better citizen of the United States of America? Like, what’s keeping me from being, like, a writer that I’ve always dreamed of being, you know? Watching Eliud Kipchoge at Monza made me reflect on all the other aspects of my life outside of running. I think that’s part of the power that this man holds for us at this time in our culture. (Matt) That’s perfectly said. Yeah, awesome. Thank you, yeah. I’ll let you go soon. Thank you very much for everything today… (Knox) No, thank you. (Matt) I guess, very quickly, I’d like to just… Maybe we could talk about, just quickly, where people can learn a bit more about Black Roses first run? You have a very… A very cool Instagram account, and the handle is @firstrun. (Knox) @firstrun yeah. @firstrun – that’s, for better or for worse, the only place to find me, unless you want to, like, come to New York and, like, hang out. And then, you know, I’m spinning records with friends at a reggae club, or hanging out in the park. So, come to New York and hang out, but if you can’t do that yet, check me out on Instagram at @firstrun. I’ve never been on Facebook, I don’t have a Facebook account. (Matt) OK. (Knox) And Twitter didn’t work for me, as you can tell from the wordiness and the verbosity of this conversation. Twitter… I never figured out Twitter. So, Instagram is where I’m at. (Matt) Awesome. Thank you very much, once again, Knox. (Knox) Thank you, Matthew and Sweat Elite. I’m super excited to participate in the conversation. I love what you’re doing, shoutout to everybody who’s a part of Sweat Elite, and is a fan of your stuff, because I’m a fan, too, man. For sure. (Matt) Awesome. Thanks so much. (Knox) Thank you.

Katrina Ruth: Ooh. That made a significant improvement, didn't it? Just that little forward tilt. She just needs a little bit of a forward tilt. Who's she? Not me, the tripod. The tripod is a girl, she's a lady. She's a lady who lunches. Somebody just invited me to lunch, I was like, "Ooh, lunch. How fancy." I feel like lunches for really fancy people, is that a true thing or am I making it up? I don't do lunch, who does lunch? Do people even eat lunch? Is that a thing? Who goes to lunch? What's that about? Who goes to lunch, I mean really. If you invite me to a lunch for your birthday, I'm going to be a little bit like, "Really, what's up with that? Dinner, I'll go to dinner." Live, we are live. I'll go to dinner, I will go for the espresso martinis ... I want to get my beach that's on both sides in. Dilemma. I don't care for that spiky spiky behind me. Do you reckon I should move it? Katrina Ruth: You think I could fix up my bloody set ... my fabulous set, before I get on it. You would think that, but if you thought it, you would be wrong. You go to lunch, who goes to lunch? My mind is being blown. You can't just go around going to lunch. I'm going to move this plant here. Oh man, my cushion situation just went out the window. All right. Hello. Just do a little bit of furniture shifting before we begin. I'm kicking it with my foot, I don't like that plant. Plant can fuck right off. With love. With love to wherever it came from. That is much better. Isn't it infinitely better? Do you feel like we need more brightness? Ha. What do you think? I'm just done with the throne right now, sorry, I'm just done with sitting in the throne. Sometimes the queen got to get off the motherfucking throne. Hello from Darwin. Why have I still in my whole life not been to Darwin? Okay that's it. Katrina Ruth: Who wants to do an amazing, amazing, kick ass entrepreneur retreat in Darwin? In a very fabulous high end location. Why are all my cushions falling off? As fast as I pick them up, they're falling off. What's happening? And why am I a little bit out of breath? Did something exciting happen to me? Not really. Something exciting is always about to happen, it's probably going to happen right now on this live stream. Okay yes, you guys are in. Oh my god I'm not even joking, I'm announcing it officially ... okay North Carolina, what are you going to offer me there? Is there good grits there, because I'll consider it. But they've got to be a lot of chicken, a lot of meat, a lot of protein. Darwin for sure we can get some really good meat. Right. Is there Vegemite on my face, because I was just eating quite a lot of it straight out of the jar, mushed with avocado and toast. So this is my studio, usually my throne is right there. I pushed it out of the way. Fuck you throne for now. Katrina Ruth: Okay, I'm announcing it officially, we're doing a very high end retreat in Darwin. I know for sure there's some fancy places in Darwin. Everyone send a love heart shout to Tina because she's just created that. Because she said, "Hi from Darwin," and I suddenly was like, "Oh my god, that's it. I've always wanted to go to Darwin and I've just never gotten around to it." And I have looked up those places and I know there's some really cool places you can go and do a retreat at, for sure, right? Tina's going to tell us what they are. We'll figure it out, we'll figure it out. I'm doing it, 10 women. How much will it be, how much will it be? Let's work it out right now. What am I talking about? Magic and power, we'll get to that in a moment. Let's do this retreat, this is the best way to do it or I'll just forget. So let's do this retreat, what month are we up to now? Katrina Ruth: We're going to do it in ... is it ... I was going to say will it be too hot in August, but then I remembered we're in Australia not America. August must be a pretty good month for Darwin, because it's not going to be crazy fucking hot, right? But it will still be hot enough. Cannes? I don't know about Cannes. I've been there already, sorry. So I think we should do it end of August, let's do it late August. Let's figure this out right now. I didn't even know I was going to launch a retreat, this is fucking amazing. I've never just created an offer on a live stream and then launched it. Who would not want to come to an incredible retreat in Darwin and we can do many nature-y things. How long should it go for? Vote. Four days? Four nights and three days? How long? We're going to do it, that's July right? We're going through the diary. And I'll do the same retreat in America, don't worry. So put your votes in for which city it should be in. Katrina Ruth: We're going to do it at the end of August, from Thursday August 30th, Mim can you write this down so that I don't forget about my own retreat? Yeah, four days. We're going to arrive on Thursday 30th of August, 31st, 1st is two, and we'll go through to the Monday. Now how much will it be? I don't know, should I include accomodation or not? I can really start putting up prices when I don't know if I'm putting out accommodations. I've been to Austin Texas many times. It's amazing, amazing. I love Texas. I do like Texas a lot. I have multiple reasons for liking Texas. But I love Austin. All right, well I've been to Dallas a lot, a lot, that's for sure. And I do like it there too a lot. A lot, a lot. Okay you guys are signing me up for a Texas retreat as well, are you? All right, well maybe. We'll see. I got to admit that my reasons for going to Texas are shortly about to be diminished. So what else was I saying? Katrina Ruth: I'm trying to decide should I give you a price right now for the retreat, but the only thing is I don't know how much, if I'm going to include accommodations or not. I've got to include accommodation. I think it's going to have to be a fabulous Airbnb where we can all stay. Do you think there is a fabulous Airbnb where we can all stay there? I don't even know what we're going to do on this retreat, but we will do everything. It's going to be a soul shifting, money making retreat. Soul shifts and money making. Message me now ... not now, pay attention here right now, message me on my personal Facebook if you want to come to the Darwin retreat. It's going to be full luxury and full stripping you back to the core. It'll be a hustle house, mixed with sausage, chips, and cellular ... cellular shifts and money making mixed with lots of martini and fun time, mixed with definitely full on adventure shit. Which I don't know what it's going to be yet, but you can't go around [inaudible 00:07:23] Darwin without doing crazy adventures and nature stuff. Katrina Ruth: Of course there's going to be a wine cellar ... yeah, we're going to do an Airbnb, we're not doing a hotel-y place. We'll get a chef, you know we'll get people to do things for us, and we will do a lot of high end lux stuff. We will rip your soul out, it will be high end with soul ripping. What else would you desire or want? Nothing. And we're definitely going to be getting into some full on nature shit of some kind. I'm really excited. It'll probably be 10 places max. I don't know how many people you can get into an Airbnb but I feel like 10's a good number anyway for me energetically. We're going to go to the water field, Tina's announcing it. Waterfalls. Message me about it and I'll sort it out over the next several days. How exciting. I'm so excited. I've been wanting to do some kind of like smack down boot camp slash hustle house, slash soc definitely running with the soc ... ooh, ooh, ohh, how have I never seen that hashtag before? Katrina Ruth: Lisa says she loves a good soul fuck. Fuck me. Fuck my soul please. Oh my god. Can I just quickly message that to somebody before we continue? Oh wait. I'll save it for later. Please fuck my soul, wait you already did. Okay so anyway, a little distracted, because I've known for ages that I so want to do a retreat and I couldn't ... oh my goodness this speaks to everything we're here to talk about. You know how fucking powerful and magical you are. That is a long ass name. Joelyn Rose McKayla Jane Longbow. Is that one person or have you got multiple profiles going on there? What's happening? Yes, well I'm going to take it and PM it to someone privately Lisa. Anyway, so anyway, I'm now thinking about that. I've really wanted to do a retreat for ages, a wine coach? I don't need a fucking wine coach. What do you mean a wine coach? I'm totally fine without a wine coach for choosing wine. Do you mean a couch? I don't understand what a wine couch is either though. And I just didn't have the idea coming forth from me. One name. Amazing. Katrina Ruth: Now I feel like I have name scarcity, my name's too short. I still have to get around to finalising what my next name is going to be. My new name. No that's right, I remember what it is. I'm changing my surname to Show. I'm legitimately, legally going to do this. And everybody can get fucked if they think it's kind of stupid. But I'm going to change my name to The Katrina Ruth Show. I don't know if you're allowed to legally change your name to The in Australia, but we'll see. But you can ... but I can definitely change my last name to Show. So my actually name will be Katrina Ruth Show. And then Facebook can suck it about how I'm not allowed to change my page name to the Katrina Ruth Show, because they were like, "Where's the show?" And I'm like, "Bitches please. This is the motherfucking show." Seriously. So then if it's my legal name? Just amazing. I'm just amazed at my own amazingness right now. I'm very impressed with myself. This cushion is scratching my back up. I'm exfoliating my back right now with these sequins. Katrina Ruth: And where did my other motherfucking cushion go? Did that purple cushion escape so far that I can't even see it? It's behind me. Okay. You've got to have a little bit of crazy in your life. People will be like, that's too far, changing your name to Show. No they wouldn't, you guys wouldn't, but normal people would. Well what's even the point of life if you can't muck around and be silly and have fun and shenanigans? We are going to have so much shananiganary on this Darwin retreat. I'm so excited that I'm doing a retreat in Darwin, I can't believe I didn't know that. I can't believe that the divine forces just aligned themselves together right now. I've been putting off organising a retreat in Australia for so long, because I'm like fuck the Gold Coast. Okay, this is the Gold Coast and it's quite beautiful and I have an amazing view here and I have a huge double story apartment here where technically I could run a fucking retreat here ... but I just didn't feel it, I didn't feel it, I didn't feel it. Katrina Ruth: And then the Darwinism came through within the whole Darwinism bit, but definitely the Darwin bit. We're going to have the best time ever. I'm going to bring my sister Jess up. Somebody tell her. Maybe I should rope in some of my friends. Maybe I should bring some of my badass friends. We're going it on Thursday August 30th. We just co-launched it right here on this live stream Helen. People in America, you would totally come from America to a retreat in Darwin. It'll be fucking amazing. Who of my friends would you want to see at this retreat? Put your votes in and we'll see if we can persuade them. And then I've got to do the retreat somewhere in America that's like ... For those of you who don't know where Darwin is, it's in the desert, it's the red fucking centre, it's where Uluru is slash Ayers rock, whatever it's being called now. I'm sorry I'm not up to speed. That's probably very politically incorrect. And you know, the crockadoo and there are very many scary beasties, that probably the Americans will all be scared of. Katrina Ruth: That's where the real dangerous things are I suppose, no it could be anywhere, it could be right here on this chair. And then yeah, yeah. Sedona I've been too, I feel like Sedona's too obvious, because every motherfucker does Sedona. Do you know what I mean? What's the west coast, tell me more about that. Does that mean the side where New York is? Is that what you mean by west coast? I do know that, but you have to be more specific. You're thinking Ellis Springs with the Uluru. Okay you're right, I don't know anything about geography, but we could travel. We could take a day trip. It's in the same state. It's not even a state, it's not even a state, it's a fricken territory. You getting me distracted. So I want to do it somewhere that's super cool and outdoorsy. Maybe in like a mountainous part of California, what do you think about that? All right, we'll figure it out. Leanna Francisco, that's a fabulous name. Maybe my surname should be Francisco, except it's going to be Show. West coast is California. Okay I know nothing about geography. Katrina Ruth: East coast ... ah, yeah, that's why they call it Eastern Standard time for the New York time. I'm not dumb, because clearly I've built a multi-seven figure business online, and by the way I'm a mass genius. Yosemite is amazing, I've been there, I got snowed in in an RV. Oregon, I've never been there. So clearly I have some wit and intelligence about me, but don't ask me things about geography, I get very fucking confused. And the other thing that I really can never figure out ... What? Who's ringing my doorbell right now? What's happening? Is that my sister turning up 26 minutes early? Inappropriate. I don't mind really, but I hate to be interrupted on a live stream. What's going on? Let's tell her off. You're early, I'm on a live stream. No it's fine, I was being a smart ass so that the livestream people laughed at me. Okay she made a funny face, I don't think she thought it was funny. She was like, "Oh, sorry." All right, don't worry. Anyway, we'll tell her about the Darwin retreat. There we go, I cracked the door for her. Katrina Ruth: Hey would you like a tour? This is lounge room, look how boring it looks I need some ... There's supposed to be a big picture behind that wall, it fell down. Here's another balcony for you, it's a bit misty today. Kitchen, and there's a whole upstairs. Massive kitchen. Here's my studio where we were. See this long ass picture on the wall was supposed to be behind that other couch. And there's my daughter's playroom. This is a little girl's heaven in here. It's supposed to be a study but she commandeered it. I like her style. There's the throne, its sorry ass is now sitting in the corner. Okay so it's been established, we're doing a Darwin retreat, Darwin is not Alice Springs. Katrina does not know east coast from west coast but she does know how to make money online. So you can all forgive her and you can all listen. And now I'm apparently talking about myself in the third person from now on. Did you know, did you know, before I get distracted by magickery and shenaniganary, did you hear the Empress is open? Katrina Ruth: Mim, give them some Empress details. But this is only for the people who know that they're like so bored as fuck with themselves for not showing up fully. And really that part of the reason for that is that you're actually not here just to be a frigging coach. You can coach all day long, but it's not who you're really here for. How you're really here. Why you're really here. Who you're really here to be, I'll get there eventually. It's to be an empress at the helm of the empire. Commanding the minions to do things. Okay that sounds really bad, but tell me you don't like the sound of it. And if you don't, don't apply, simple. Empress. It's time for some empresses to step into their empressness. Epressness. Empressory. Empressory. What does it say here on this comment. This is some damn compelling copy if I do say so myself. This came out of me like a woosh, like a woosh of magic and power. I was on a plane on the way to Bali, so much badassery comes out when I'm on Bali. Katrina Ruth: Ask valet guys to let you up or buzz again if they say no. The live stream people need to see you now. She said the buzzer didn't work. They are waiting. I have something to tell you. I'm just messaging her on what's up. All right. That stupid buzzer. My buzzer of my apartment, it's very snooty. It's very hoity-toity about who it will let in and not let in. It basically never lets Kelly Renee in. I think it started letting Kelly Renee in now, it will just let in whoever it likes. It usually lets Matt in, he should be here in not too long. My videographer. And it just basically selects who it wants in. Shogun ninjas. Yeah they are ninjas, they're actually ninjas. I guess I was referring to my children as the minions. You can't have them. But really ninjas, that's exactly right Carla. Who doesn't want ninjas. Let me tell you about Empress, I'm going to read it to you. It's such a kick in the ass read. It really is. It will reach into your soul. Hang on. Okay, no that was my blog. I almost accidentally read you my whole blog. Katrina Ruth: You should go read that, that is an ass kicking and a half. Empress, claim your rightful place now. Ready to play into the camera, give them a show. Turn the dial up and become a motherfucking star. Empress. Claim your rightful place now. Four weeks, one on one, with Katrina Ruth, excuse me, legal name, The Katrina Ruth Show ... for women unapologetically born for more. Jessa says ha, ha, okay. She'll be here shortly. This is what is missing ... listen to this, let it speak to your soul. I'm going to sermonise to you now. Sermonise. This is what is missing, you, you're a queen. Okay should be on the throne. But I'm just over the throne right now. You're a queen, a leader, a bad ass, we know this. You were born for it and it shines out of every pore of you, but more than that, you're a motherfucking empress. If you know that's true, shower me with love hearts now. Claim your place as an empress. Katrina Ruth: You're a motherfucking empress gorgeous, you've always known this and let's get real now. It might sting a little. This whole little game you're playing of, "I'm a coach, and teach this or that, or the other thing. Join my programme, sign up for my stuff, I'll teach you how. And I'll show you the process and how it can help you." Well it sounds pretty fucked up to me. Jessa is laughing at me in the background. I'm just taking off the stepford-preneurs. We'll bring her on shortly. You're going to have to say something amusing or she refuses to get on. She's very much the diva. It might sting a little. Oh I said that bit already. Okay this little game you're playing. Okay it was never going to cut it, was it now? No. Oh that hurt my boob. I flung my hand ... it keeps happening to me, I did it on a live stream with Patrick yesterday, I was like, "Hug. Ow." This left one is stuffed up, it doesn't want to be stretched too far. It's very juicy though. Katrina Ruth: It was never going to ... this is my sales video by the way, sales video. If we could chop it out and put it on a sale page, it would be as appropriate as fuck. It was never going to cut it now was it? No. This is not new information for you, der. You look around at all the things you tell yourself you have to do each day. The way you think you got to show up, sell, prove your worth, get people to want to learn from you, and therefore pay you ... why did I not think of putting this on a scripty thing on an iPad behind the tripod and I could have just read it and you would have thought I'm a magician. So well versed in my own copy, I am a magician. We'll talk about that in a moment. Magic and power, it's coming. I think I'm doing a good demo of it. What am I up to here? The way ... I did that bit. Katrina Ruth: The way, I'll do it again. The way you think you got to show up, sell, prove your worth, get people to want to learn from you, and therefore pay you, and what you don't see is that ... listen to this bit, write this shit down. Sit up fucking straight and pay attention Deneen and everybody else as well. You probably were already sitting up, since you just said that you're glad you didn't fall asleep ... the reason you were always meant to be paid ... Damn highly, I might add, is for people to be in your presence. In your aura. There's nobody laughing at me behind the tripod. So I can't be doing any live streams in public anymore, they've gone next, next level. To be in your aura. Is it true or is it true? To soak up the energy and the essence of you. Ode d'tea tree deodorant. Tea tree oil deodorant. And Chanel. To be lifted up and elevated to where they need to be, and into the action which automatically just goes with it, because of the way that you show up and shine. Katrina Ruth: This has nothing to do with what you teach. It's not a motherfucking strategy. I am giving you sales genius to read right now. Genius to read, so word, write it down. And you can break down the components of it all you like, but really it's a vibration thing. Okay this is where you know if empress is for you or not, because you've either got it or you don't. I can't give you that shit, I can't make you a motherfucking star, you already are the damn star and maybe you just need a little bit of soul alignment and adjusting and ass kicking. It's a vibration thing, you either got or you don't. If you got it, why are you not flaunting it? And you, well you have always had it, haven't you? You who knows who you are. Okay there's definitely some Vegemite with avocado and vegetables coming up right now. Have some coffee. All right. You always had it, haven't you? You've always been that person who shines so, full stop. Fucking full stop. Bright full stop. Katrina Ruth: Who sees the world in a particular way in which others do not, who has lived their life, that came out weird ... in a certain way in which others do not, who has quite literally trained for this shit. Since you were a young girl, as far back as you can remember, no need to pretend otherwise. You knew you were born for more. You looked around, I feel like Dr. Deuce now ... As though in a daze. Not quite understanding what everybody else was on about, so boring, or why they cared so much. So lame. And just kind of sort of always fucking realising, "Well. This is not where I am going to be anyway." Yes? Yes. "These are not my people. This is not my path. This is not the world I will operate in." It is as though your soul always knew, since before time even began, that you came from different stock. My god I'm a copywriting genius. Somebody should pay me for this shit, except I wouldn't do it for any money in the world, I'd do it for the fun. Katrina Ruth: For the fun and for the flow. I tell you how to write that shit out too. You were born into the wrong world, you had to spend time there for perhaps for learning, or growth, or just the gathering of patience, but it was always clear that one day ... Okay this sounds mean ... just as with an orphan, who dreams she is really born of royalty, reality, royalty? Same thing. Your real life would come for you. What you didn't realise, what you were perhaps never told ... and why would you be, because who would tell you back then, or even know ... but I'm telling you now. What you must now take ownership of, is that the life you've been waiting for this whole time, and the you who you've always known you must step into, it was never going to come for you at all. You have to step up for it. All right. When you're ... oh my goodness I want to stop but there's just a little bit more I've got to read, and then I've got some things to say. I'm getting fired up right now. Katrina Ruth: Now here we are. You show up online every day doing the do. Valiantly seeking to demonstrate why you are better coach, or even the best ... When actually you are not a motherfucking coach at all. And quite frankly the whole thing faintly sickens you, because when all is said and done and if you dare to admit it, you're just so much more than that. That's all. It's the way it's always been. You just didn't know you had to own it is all. And now, well you wonder why you struggle to break that next income level. You wonder why so many of the things you set out to do exhaust you, and you either don't do them ... and continually beat up on yourself for it ... give me a comment if read the [inaudible 00:25:29] of this ... or you do them and you resent every fucking second of it. You wonder what is wrong with you. Why you can't just get your shit done. Why you don't seem to think or feel like the other coaches. Katrina Ruth: And why it doesn't feel like flow yet when the whole damn point supposed to that you just get to wake up each day, follow your heart, create your art, do what you can't not. And you know that yes, it actually motherfucking was. So why does it not feel that yet, why is it that even when you're claiming flow and ease there is this constant fucking niggle there? Why? Why? Talking directly to you, [inaudible 00:26:04]. This constant fucking niggle there, I knew exactly why that niggle's there. I lost the word niggle on my screen right now though. It's a dilemma. Ah, this missing piece, this emptiness, this frustration, this won't you all fuck off and leave me alone energy. Yes, you should put a queenie emoji in if you know that this is you. Isn't it obvious? Don't you see? Haven't you always fucking known? You're not a coach. You're not an online business owner. You're not even actually an entrepreneur. Not if there's a period after it, anyway. Entrepreneur period? No. Entrepreneur amongst many other fabulous things. Yes. You can do all these things. Be all these things. Katrina Ruth: And indeed always will ... however, what you are, who you are, how it's always been, and why the whole damn thing is not in fact flowing as you know it could and should be, is because you are an empress baby. Lucky I didn't do this on the beach. Born for more. Born for exceptional. Born for extraordinary and not of this world. And you tell yourself how outrageous it is, to think so highly of you, to expect so much, to feel that really if the world were at rights with itself you would be in charge. Me, I'd be in charge. Just to be clear. You might feel the same way, but really it's me. We all know that. I don't mind for you, but it's really me.but you might think that you created a manifested me, but really it was me. But think whatever you like. You would be in charge. To know that you know, that you know, that people really need to shut the fuck up and listen to you. Katrina Ruth: And that actually you should always and only get to do what you want, have what you want, with the click of your fingers and the blink of your eyes and totally as you imagined it. And that while we're on it, people should motherfucking you pay just to be in your presence. Am I right or am I right. Give me an Amen if I'm right. You can do it via Amen, A-M-E-N period. With or without the period, or love heart shower, or little cat emojis. Whatever works for you. You tell yourself it's too much and crazy when in actual fact you know, and you've always known she says ... with a shrug of her shoulders and a what do you want me to do about it look ... this is just how it is. Which I suppose begs the question, when in actual fact do you think that you might start own the fact that this is how it is? Hmm? Hmm. I like that Amen Katherine, nicely done. How about ... Question, How about right fucking now? Empress, caps lock on, claim your rightful place, now. Katrina Ruth: Four weeks one on one with Katrina Ruth ... excuse me, The Katrina Ruth Show, legal name ... for women unapologetically born for more. Jess apply to have my changed to The Katrina Ruth Show. Go into the Queensland name changing register. I'm changing my surname to Show. And the first name's going to be The Katrina. And I'm not joking, just for laughs, straight no shenanigans. Jessa: Is it a space or two words? Katrina Ruth: Space. My first name is going to be The Katrina. And my middle name will be Ruth and my surname is Show. Jessa: I think it can be done. Katrina Ruth: Yes. She's doing it now. Ninjas, they're everywhere. Everywhere. What are we up to? Four weeks one on one with The Katrina Ruth Show for women unapologetically born for me. Empress energy and vibrations. Katherine's changing her last name to Empress, all in. Empress expectations and demands. With a humble, grateful attitude. Empress environment, every part of it. Empress empire, the whole shebang. Empress copy, it's a free bonus. You can have it when you come to the Darwin retreat. Empress motherfucking everything ... the way it was always supposed to be. It is time to stop playing so coy, pretending you want for so little and telling yourself a story. I'm channelling the version of me where I do my branding videos with Chris Collins in LA where I just turn it on ... I'm turning it on. Well I did write my blog this morning, Turn It On. It's time to stop playing so coy, I'll say it again. Pretending you want for so little and telling yourself a story. Katrina Ruth: That you're here to build a business online, make some money, be one of the fucking pack, when the only truth is always ... You were born to run the world. Beyonce as fuck. Run this thing. Empress initiation has begun. Your rightful place is waiting. This is one on one with me, the likes of which has never been done before ... Well actually it was done the first time that I ran Empress. But this is the second time. And that was fucking amazing and oh my holy Vegemite, wait till you see the feedback from that. I will share the testimonials. Whatever, it matters whether it's speaking to your soul or not, but still I will. It will take your breath away. It will shake you to the core. It will cause you to question everything you're doing right now ... Let's be honest, you already are. Katrina Ruth: What am I up to, I keep losing my place. And it will show you unapologetically why you feel so damn empty inside when you're supposedly doing everything you're meant to be doing. How can you feel what you're mean to feel, when it was always supposed to be about, and what it was always supposed to be about, when you haven't even actually begun on the life you really came here to build. There's a reason you feel like so much is missing, and here is what it is ... The thing you've been missing is being the real fucking you. Empress gorgeous, me and you. Claim your rightful place and everything which goes with it. When? Life is now. Time to be the motherfucking show. Private message me on my personal Katrina Ruth page for details. Goddamn it, I just made an entire sales video. Ash will be thrilled. That was quite a bit of shenanaginary that injected itself into the sales video. And do you know what else I did? I launched an entire retreat in Darwin. And you're coming as well by the way Jess. Jessa: Oh sweet. Katrina Ruth: Yep. That just happened on the live stream. Somebody said that they're there from Darwin and next thing we were planning an Airbnb of higher vibration [inaudible 00:32:05] in Darwin. It's going to be August 30th. Can you come? Jessa: Yes. Katrina Ruth: Would you like to go on the live stream? Do you have anything to say to people? She's thinking about it. she's considering it. Jessa: I don't have my ninja costume ready though. Katrina Ruth: You look amazing. Jessa: Well that's true. Katrina Ruth: Well that's true, it's obvious she says. She like, why do you even say such a silly thing. I don't know do we need to get another chair? Are we going to pull this chair over? Who wants Jess to appear on the live stream? Jess is the ... What are you even? She's the business manager, she's the mistress of the Millionaire Mastermind ... are you the mistress? The mother hen? Jessa: Someone said I was the sensei. Katrina Ruth: She's the sensei. Oh wise, one. Oh wise one. Jessa: Wise sensei. Katrina Ruth: Oh wise one, would you like to join me on my live stream wise one? Jessa: Yes, I feel [crosstalk 00:32:55] capes back here, I feel like [crosstalk 00:32:59]. Katrina Ruth: Put a cape on if you must, capes will make you look like Dracula, they're atrocious. Jess has never been on a live stream with me. Jessa: No. Katrina Ruth: Everybody's giving you a lot of love heart showers. You need 45 cushions. Don't appear without 45 cushions. You got to go get all the cushions. Jessa: [inaudible 00:33:18] yeah. Katrina Ruth: Because you'll feel like a little, so you'll feel like a little minion sitting down on that chair. Let me get you another purple cushion. Hold yourself tight right wherever you are. Don't hold yourself in a rude way, that's not what I meant by hold yourself tight. Well you can if you want. All right. You want to have one of them behind you. You want to sit on two cushions or maybe one, depends on how you feel. Perch, perch on the cushions. Jessa: She's going to have the lackeys now push apply cushions. Katrina Ruth: There we go, there's mini cushions. Jessa: I feel like there's too many cushions. Katrina Ruth: There's no such thing as too many cushions. Look at the side boob, would you? It's quite incredible. Okay somebody said ... one of my male friends said to me yesterday, why have I not sent him a photo of my breasts yet. And I was [inaudible 00:34:06]. That's not something I was planning to do. He was like, "Oh I just feel like whenever girls get their boobs done, they always want to show everyone." I'm like, "Well that's true, they do look amazing," but I'm trying stay within the realms of what's appropriate and not send before and after photos as requested to all my male friends. Jessa: I think it is now time to get you some of those Lady GaGa nipple [crosstalk 00:34:28]. Katrina Ruth: I'm not wearing nipple tassels. This woman is- Jessa: No tassels. Katrina Ruth: If someone is insisting in dressing me in bizarre things- Jessa: Sequined stickers. Katrina Ruth: Here she comes, give her a warm welcome. My sister Jessa, mistress, sensei, the ... What the fuck? Jessa: Den master? That was naughty. Katrina Ruth: Hold on, I didn't sign off on den master. Didn't we say ringleader? Jessa: Oh yeah, ringleader was one. Katrina Ruth: Really? Jessa: I like ringleader. Katrina Ruth: Let's have a vote, look at all the love that you're getting. You might speak to Jessa in a lot of my groups. And in fact we're going to do some filming today, that's why she's popped around. We're going to film a welcome video for the Millionaire Mastermind. Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: And you're going to get to know Jessa quite well in Millionaire Mastermind. But have you been on a live stream ... You might have done a live into High Vibe or something. Jessa: Yeah, I've done a live into High Vibe, I forced [inaudible 00:35:21] to do a live once. [crosstalk 00:35:24] Katrina Ruth: That's different, that's not you. You can't just say I forced someone- Jessa: Oh, well I was on it. Katrina Ruth: Oh you were in it. Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Madam Lash. Jessa: Ooh, that's ... Katrina Ruth: It's not a sex programme, it seems to be going- Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: ... but I have helped many people manifest amazing sex of life, it's an [inaudible 00:35:39] thing that I'm doing. I'm okay with it, I'll go with it. Mistress- Jessa: How does the lash play into place? Because I'll lash people. Well, yes. I did buy multiple whipping props for [crosstalk 00:35:57]. Katrina Ruth: If you see me holding weird ass props in my live streams, I don't mean like a normal sceptre, like obviously a queen would ... but if you see me pick up like riding crop- Jessa: See these? These were bought because they are ninja swords. And you have ninjas around you all the time. Katrina Ruth: Then she's like, "Do you want some nipple tassels?" Tina says gorgeous, the colour. Tina's the one who initiated the Darwin retreat because she said she was in Darwin. And somehow we all co-launched a retreat together. Jessa also made me this Chanel hip flask. She made it. Jessa: Well, I designated a ninja to make it. Katrina Ruth: She outsourced it. Like an official ninja does. Jessa: Yes. Katrina Ruth: But she oversaw it, she oversaw the design of it. Jessa: I feel like we should write to Chanel and say, "Excuse me-" Katrina Ruth: I don't know why the fuck you got me a key as a prop, what is this supposed to do. Jessa: Oh it was relevant to something at the time and now it's irrelevant. Katrina Ruth: I feel like you had this key in my props for ages, I'm like, "But why? What is it the key for?" Is it for the door where all the dead wives of Bluebeard are? Jessa: Who is Bluebeard? Is he a pirate? Katrina Ruth: No, Bluebeard's the one who kills all his wives. It's actually ... Bluebeard is representative of the darkness of your psyche. Jessa: Or, it could be that you hold the key to everything. And that's why people follow you. Katrina Ruth: That's fucking obvious, nobody needed to say that. Jessa: Excuse me. [crosstalk 00:37:18] Katrina Ruth: Bluebeard, this is a great story. Bluebeard ... who knows the story of Bluebeard? Key to a kick ass life. Bluebeard gets his wives, he seduces them, and even though he has a blue beard which is clearly something to do with [crosstalk 00:37:34]- Jessa: Who knows? Katrina Ruth: ... and then he tells them that they can have the run of the whole castle and the whole house, and do whatever they like, but they must not go into this one room. And he gives them the keys with all the keys on it. And then he leaves. And so in the story the younger sister had her older sister there. The younger sister being seduced by Bluebeard even though it was scary. So she was going to marry him. And then her sisters and her all, "Let's look inside the room." And then they opened and it was all the dead bodies of all his previous wives. But then the room door lock started to bleed and bleed and bleed, and they couldn't wipe the blood off them, not even with horsehair- Jessa: Super random story. Is this some sort of twisted [crosstalk 00:38:15] Katrina Ruth: No, this is very- Jessa: This demonic story you found online. Katrina Ruth: Shush. This is very relevant. Sneaky, I'll joust with you right now. Jessa: I don't know, I'm a ninja. Katrina Ruth: So just on a side note, if you see me being really silly on live stream, or being an idiot it likely comes about from how my siblings and I behave normally all the time anyway. Jessa: Yes, we're always jousting. Katrina Ruth: Always jousting. All four of us, it's just complete idiots. And then the partners just leave the room. Jessa: We don't have have cutlery, we just take things with our jousting sticks. Stab them up and eat them like skewers. Katrina Ruth: I think I just snotted snot. And we do, we end up in hysterics. And then all the partners would always just be like- Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: ... and they will retire the lounge. Jessa: It's like they're coming to this new dimension they don't know. Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Because our parents get involved as well, they're just as weird. So then it's all six of us. So if you come around to my mum and dad's house, or you come hang out with me and my siblings, you're going to have to be as weird as fuck, or you're just not going to be able to keep up. Jessa: Yeah, you'll leave a little bit shell shocked otherwise. Katrina Ruth: It'll be soul shifting, with or without the money making. Yes, you may need some therapy and some actual healing after the result of that. Anyway. So Bluebeard, so then the blood just keeps coming out and she can't wipe the blood off her, which means that he's coming back and she knows that he's going to know that he went into the room. Jessa: That they went into the room. Katrina Ruth: Yes? Question. Jessa: But if they ... Do I get the key or the sceptre. Katrina Ruth: The microphone. Jessa: Oh. Katrina Ruth: Where is the motherfucking microphone? The kids took it. Jessa: Let me do this, question. Katrina Ruth: No I don't want that. I don't like that. All right, question. Jessa: Question, okay. So if he's got all bodies of his dead wives in there anyway, they're going to die anyway whether they look in the room or not. So you- Katrina Ruth: Exactly right. Jessa: ... always look in the room. Katrina Ruth: Exactly right. Exactly right. Are we invited to your parent's house or what? Well you can come here and we'll bring them to you. Jessa: They'll be a [crosstalk 00:40:40]. Katrina Ruth: My mother doesn't care for feet on her floors. You're not allowed into mum and dad's house unless you manage to not walk on the floor. Jessa: You have to tiptoe on your hands. Katrina Ruth: No floor, there's no floor there. You can't walk on the floor. But we could bring them here. And anyway, that was an excellent point that you raised. You're right, he was going to kill her anyway, but she discovered it. And then she's obviously terrified of him, that he's going to find out- Jessa: She's got her sister there, just fucking kill that guy. Katrina Ruth: I'm getting to the beard, calm your horses. Or your tits, whichever one. Calm your tits. So anyway, and that what happens is he comes back, so she tries to hide it from him, she's just wiping blood up, blood everywhere, it doesn't come off, it won't come off. She's using horse hair to scrub the key, the key is covered in blood ... I don't know why you gave me such a terrible prop to like prompt such a horrible story. Jessa: Because. Katrina Ruth: It's an important story though. And then, and then- Jessa: That's why I got the key. Katrina Ruth: ... well he discovers that she's been in there and he's furious and the monster is revealed. And she thought he was ... Stop trying to not laugh, just let it out and admit that I'm hilarious. So then the monster is revealed, and she thought he was loving, even though he did have a blue beard, which is always as suspicious sign on a gentleman. Jessa: Very suspicious. Katrina Ruth: I wouldn't be getting involved with any men with blue beards. Unless of course they were from Byron Bay- Jessa: And unless- Katrina Ruth: ... and they had some gluten free chocolate, white chocolate and [crosstalk 00:42:17]- Jessa: Johnny Depp. Katrina Ruth: Brownies. Jessa: Johnny Depp died his beard for you. Katrina Ruth: Johnny Depp, really? We can do better than that. Jessa: What if Bradley Cooper dyed- Katrina Ruth: Exactly. Jessa: ... his beard blue. Katrina Ruth: Exactly what I'm going for. Exactly. Jessa: You would be like mm-hmm (affirmative), smurf, yeah. Katrina Ruth: Smurf-alicious. Jessa: Smurf-alicious. Blue. Katrina Ruth: Hm. Back on track. Fucking focus. So anyway, then he's outraged and he's going to kill her and he tells her. And so she pleads with him for a moment to prepare her spiritual affairs. Because she's smart enough to know that she doesn't know how to escape right now but that she needs that little moment of time. And so she goes to the high tower and she says, "Sisters, sisters, can you see our brothers?" And they say, "No." And she says, "Sisters, sisters, can you see our brothers?" And they say, "I can see like a tiny, powdery speck on the horizon." And she says, "Sisters, sisters, can you see our brothers?" And they say "Yes, our brothers are coming." And then the brothers come and they kill him. And now I'll tell you the meaning of the story. Are you ready? Jessa: Do tell. Katrina Ruth: [crosstalk 00:43:23]. It's the motherfucking psyche. It's the darkness that exists in all of us as women, the dark and the wild and the raw and the scary. And it's that darkness inside of you which can ... If you don't know how to dance with it, actually consume you and take your life from you. And how mean women, all women, or all girls growing up, really you can try to do what you want to try and ... Did Matt just knock on the door? Jessa: Maybe. Katrina Ruth: Can you go check? Jessa: Yep. Katrina Ruth: Crack the door open anyway, because he'll be here any minute. You can do what you want to try and protect your daughters and protect the younger generation from making mistakes and doing silly shit that maybe going to hurt them or land them in trouble, but they're going to go it because they don't recognise the danger in the Bluebeard. They don't recognise you know the need to understand and be consciously in control of the darkness of the psyche. And so they allow the psyche to take them and maybe some of them get lost fully in the psyche and they're gone and they're killed and then put behind the door. Hello Matt. Matt: Hello. Katrina Ruth: You can film any time. I don't know what's happening right now. And so, did you hear that? So you try all you like to protect your daughters ... gosh your daughter's going to be protecting other people, that's for sure. She is terrifying. And extraordinary beautiful as well. Which is a really scary combination. Jessa: She deviates from sweet and scary. Katrina Ruth: She lifts dining tables over her heads ... her head. Jessa: Her heads. Katrina Ruth: What was the other random thing she did. Jessa: That makes her sound more scary. And she insists on keeping eating chilli sauce. Katrina Ruth: She eats Tabasco. She drinks it from the bottle. She's two. Two. Two. We're out the other night and we get a photo of her just hoisting the dining table up over her head. And she drinks motherfucking Tabasco sauce. And I'm not even kidding. Jessa: [crosstalk 00:45:29] her three and a half year old brother- Katrina Ruth: And she's two years old. She's terrifying. Jessa: ... to help her out with the dining table. Katrina Ruth: As a ninja. Jessa: Yeah. But she initiated. Katrina Ruth: That girl's scary. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway. It's the darkness of the psyche. So you can try to protect your daughter's all you like from making silly mistakes, or the younger generation. They're going to do whatever the fuck they want. You can tell them all you like about the bluebeard, about the darkness, about the places to not go or look or they're just going to do what they want anyway. They're going to have their own experience. And hopefully they then catch it in time. And so when she's yelling for her sisters, when she's locked in the tower, you know she realised in time that he was going to kill her, so she asked for a reprieve to go to the tower to have a moment to collect her spiritual affairs. So she's realised that oh, maybe this is not safe and maybe her older sisters were already wiser and knew that. So then in that time, she's yelling, "Can you see our brothers? Can you see our brothers?" And they can't see them, because basically it represents that she doesn't have the knowledge or the wisdom in her psyche to know how to deal with her situation yet- Jessa: So she's calling it out? Katrina Ruth: Yeah, but it does exist in there, it exists in there. So then she asks again, "Sisters, sisters can you see our brothers?" And then they're like, "Well we can't see anything, but there's a little dust on the horizon," and it's like the knowledge is coming. The ability to deal with this stuff is coming. Females need to embrace the darkness as well as the light. That's right. We have to go through this experience. And then ultimately the monster is destroyed and and she's safe and she learned something and she goes on her way. It exists in all women ... How the fuck did we end up there? Bluebeard, we're talking about Bluebeard. Did you know the story of Bluebeard? Jessa: The key, this was the reason that the key was bought. Katrina Ruth: This is why we have a key that's covered in blood. Jessa: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. Katrina Ruth: I was going to talk about magic and power- Jessa: But the pipe is to make you look more wise. Katrina Ruth: That's the pipe. I don't smoke a pipe. Who buys a pipe? Jessa: Yes, but you could be in the study, you know, making wise commentary. Katrina Ruth: I'm always in the study making wise commentary. Wherever I am I'm always making wise commentary. That's a normal situation of fucking everyday life. Jessa: All right, I'll fucking sell the pipe. Katrina Ruth: Oh. Swear on my live stream, how dare you. Jessa: Oh dear. Katrina Ruth: Irreverent. Well the brothers and sisters save her, but they represent the other parts of her psyche- Jessa: So you can't take it literally. Katrina Ruth: ... the wiser part- Jessa: Because I was like, why would she be needing her brothers, because you'd deal with that yourself? Fuck yeah. Katrina Ruth: I like how the men deal with things. Jessa: It depends. Katrina Ruth: Well the sisters are the more evolved wiser parts of the psyche and the brothers are the protective parts of the psyche, I think in the story. Jessa: So in my life story, you're just the more evolved part of my psyche. Katrina Ruth: Good on you mate. I'm finding these [inaudible 00:48:24] very distracting. Jessa: Very Grand Prix. Katrina Ruth: Yeah what's happening here, are you going to the Formula One afterwards? Matt: Yup. Katrina Ruth: Okay. Sorry I'm just in a very silly mood. All right. Now what were we up to? Magic and power. We'll say something about that, and then we've got to go, we've got to go. You guys are holding us up, you're just mucking around and climbing around and stopping us from doing what we're really meant to be doing. I was supposed to ... We've got to do some filming here. I was supposed to be live streaming on you know how fucking powerful and magical you are, and that is a fact. Reason being, I messaged that to someone an hour or so back, and we were having a conversation and I was like, "Let's get clear. You know how fucking powerful and magical you are." I know it. All my clients know it. All my friends know it. Jessa knows it. Matt knows it ... I mean about themselves even, and you know it as well. Everyone knows it about me, that's a given. But you do know it about yourself. Katrina Ruth: So you know sometimes when you're in the doubt, or you're in the resistance, or you feel uncertain about getting your message or your ad out there. Or you're like, I could never carry on ... I mean I'm just assuming you want to carry on like me on a live stream ... but really, why would you not want to be a complete clown and have fun and make money doing it? And then you think I'm not good enough for that or I can't, or I don't have it within me or something like that. Really what I wanted to come on today and say today and then somehow a whole bunch of random shit happened is ... Beneath the fear and beneath the uncertainty. Beneath the doubt, beneath the "Maybe I'm not born for this," you do fucking know and that is a fact. Or you wouldn't be here. So when you feel all that stuff, it's the surface stuff. That's not how you actually feel at the core. Katrina Ruth: And it's ... what it is is just layers. Layer upon layer upon layer. Get me an onion and I'll demonstrate. Except we don't have onions, because I hate them. It's devil's food. What can I demonstrate with. Get me a packet of bread out of the fridge. Yes, it's true. I have bread, it's embarrassing. Jessa: What? Do you [crosstalk 00:50:22]. Katrina Ruth: Bring me the bread. Jessa: Okay. Katrina Ruth: Bring me the bread. I'm going to do a live demonstration. This has been best live stream in the history of time. So far we launched an entire retreat in Darwin ... maybe you can come to that? Matt: When's that? Katrina Ruth: August 30th. Say hello to the camera. Are you there? Am I showing you? Matt: Yeah, I'm on. Katrina Ruth: There's Matt. Maybe Matt can come to the Darwin retreat because that definitely sounds like something we would want- Matt: I've never been to Darwin. Katrina Ruth: Me either. And then somebody from Darwin popped on the live stream and said hi from Darwin, and suddenly I said I think we should do a retreat in Darwin. Matt: Why not? Katrina Ruth: And we just co-created it right here. It's going to be on August 30th. We're going to get an amazing Airbnb, it'll be four nights, it'll be soul shifts and money making and lots of shenanigans. And lots of adventures. Matt: Yeah. Jessa: I feel like I should deliver this on a platter. Katrina Ruth: Get me a platter. Jessa: Like I could buy you one. Katrina Ruth: Can I have a platter? Jessa: Right now? Katrina Ruth: Bloody hell. All right, there is bread in my house, it's embarrassing. Helen said, Matt's cute. He hears that all the time, he's very used to it. Especially from my audience. Jessa: You know you could peel [crosstalk 00:51:27] Katrina Ruth: I don't know is it just my audience or do you get that whenever you're filming? Matt: Oh it depends who it is. Katrina Ruth: It's probably just all these women. Okay so we have here- Jessa: Lots of crumbs. Katrina Ruth: ... a very flaky packet of bread. It's gluten free. It's Paleo as fuck, don't worry. Should we get some [inaudible 00:51:45]- Jessa: Well you may as well have a snack. Katrina Ruth: I already was like face first in a jar of Vegemite earlier this morning. Now my dad's got a café and they're like, "Uh, there's Vegemite on your face." Burn the bread. So anyway, this is the BL layout. No it's not. This is the layer that you present to ... This is going to be a great skit by the way. Jessa: Yes. Katrina Ruth: This is the layer you present to Facebook, okay? On Facebook you're like, la-di-da, look at me, my hair is glowing and I look fabulous. Or even if it's not, you post some happy, chappy photos and your life is amazing. That is your surface layer. Surface layer, say it after me. Surface layer. My ninja will take that for me. Beneath, okay we don't need a crust. There's just a crust there just for no reason. Jessa: Crusts should be thrown out- Katrina Ruth: Why is the crust in the middle? Jessa: ... immediately after opening the bread. Katrina Ruth: The crust is the best bit. Jessa: That's disgusting. Katrina Ruth: This is the next layer, as you can see. This layer is the fear layer. This is the what if people really knew ... I know I've got to look at this camera. You'll excuse me. What if people really knew the truth about me? What if they knew that I've been [inaudible 00:52:50] all night long. That I'm drinking an excessive amount. That I yell and shout at my children. That I'm not really a nice person. That I have fucking clue what I'm on about and every day I'm worried that the fraud police are going to knock on the door and be like, "Hey. We have evidence to prove you're not a real adult. Everybody knows." That's the fear layer, lurks underneath the other layer. Okay we've got another Matt is cute, why was I not informed. I'm sorry I didn't have a prior arrangement with you Ellen that I have to inform you. I guess you could just watch more of my shows and then you'd see more. So that's the fear layer, everyone has it and you don't want everyone to know. Katrina Ruth: Underneath the fear layer, you have the fuck this shit layer. Official Wikipedia terminology. Fuck this shit layer. That is like, "Actually I'm pretty fucking certain that I know exactly what I'm doing and I don't know what these bitches over here think that they're doing, but I should be in charge." Fuck this shit layer. We should have prepared these breads earlier and written on them. Jessa: Oh that would have been good. Katrina Ruth: That would have been awesome. Underneath the fuck this shit layer, you have the despair layer. It's okay, we all have it, no need to get fat. The despair layer, the "I really don't think I actually know what I'm doing at all and I feel kind of hopeless. And I feel down and sometimes I feel completely lost and meaningless. Nobody really understands me, and I'm probably never, ever going to get there and I should probably just give up now." Despair layer. Lisa says she's in bed right now wallowing in that layer. Thank you for owning it. Underneath the despair layer, it's just a chocolate layer. It's a layer of chocolate mud cake. Underneath the chocolate layer is the core. The core. The core is solid, it's gritty. It's not at all flaky, this one is. It's solid, it is rock solid. It's a diamond. It's a fucking diamond. Do we have a big ass diamond anywhere in this room that I- Jessa: Oh no. We should. Katrina Ruth: ... can use? It is hard as steel. And this layer knows that all the other layers, except for the chocolate layer and the fuck this shit layer, are bullshit. It knows that the surface layer ... go through it again, in case anybody missed it. Have the crust. It's getting messy. I just had the house cleaned this morning as well. It knows that the surface, shiny Facebook layer is like, whatever. Who fucking even cares? It knows that the fear layer is actual bullshit. The core knows that the fear is bullshit. It knows that the fuck this shit layer is kind of like, cool, cool, but me thinketh the lady doth protesteth too much. Everyone knows what that means, right? Jessa: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: If you don't you have to leave. It knows that the ... what are we up to? Wait, I feel like I've got an extra layer that's been added in. Oh despair layer. It knows that the despair and sadness layer is just reactivness and resistance playing out. It's the human as fuck condition, it's okay, we're all allowed to have it. It knows that the chocolate layer is not going any fucking place and we'll hold on to it forever. And it knows that the core is the core. At your core, underneath all the layers, you know that you were born for it. You know that you were absolutely fucking born for it. You know you are magic, you know you are powerful. You know you are here to change the world. You know that everything you feel inside of you is real and that if you would only just throw all of ... It had to be done. If you would just throw all the layers off of you, then you would be living, breathing from the core. And all I did was let out the motherfucking core. Katrina Ruth: The [inaudible 00:56:28], give me them back to me, I need them back. No not really. The other layers they just heap themselves back on, back on, back on, all the time, every day. Sneaking up on me like invisible little evil ninjas and I'm just throwing them away all the time. Left, right, and centre. And I remain at my core, the whole story. Thank you for playing. Life is now. Press fucking play. What would you like to add? Jessa: Oh I don't know what I can add to that. Katrina Ruth: Any additions? Well, I feel like I said what I came here to say. In fact I said none of what I came here to say at all. But it was fabulous and so now we have to go. We have many very serious and important things to do. No shenanigans at all. But basic point is, you fucking know that you were born for it. Don't walk around saying that you're not. Man or woman the fuck up and do your shit. And when it comes up inside of you, just throw the bread layers off you and think of me. Get a chocolate layer if necessary or a coffee layer, or whatever it is. And why don't you just fucking pretend that you're already living from the core layer the whole time anyway? Nobodies going to know the difference. And then one day you'll wake up and you will have become it. Jessa: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Katrina Ruth: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's the whole story. Jessa: That was fun. Katrina Ruth: So now you should watch the replay if you missed any, because the whole thing was amazing. And then you should read the comment in there and Empress has returned, you should private message me if you want to be an empress ... My golly gosh, that was probably the favoritest new thing that I ever did. And the Darwin retreat. Jessa's coming, Matt might be coming, we check our dates. It is going to be beyond. We're going to have 10 women, plus ninja, plus videography, plus shenanigans ... One incredibly luxurious high end Airbnb house. Many Paleo as fuck, espresso martinis, many shenanigans, we're going to hustle. We're going to do money making and soul ... sell ... What's it called again? Soul and cellular shifts- Jessa: [crosstalk 00:58:33] Katrina Ruth: ... and money making. And we're definitely going to do some random as fuck adventures in nature. Jessa: Ride crocodiles. Katrina Ruth: And then we're going to figure out ... We're going to ride ... I told you the American side can't be scared about this. And then we're going to do some sort of equivalent adventure in California. What's a good mountainous part of California? Come on. Matt: I don't know. Tahoe's it. Katrina Ruth: Huh? Matt: Tahoe? Katrina Ruth: I've been to Lake Tahoe but I went in the snow. Matt: I was in the snow as well. Katrina Ruth: Oh. Matt: Brother went as there, summer's good as well. Katrina Ruth: Maybe it will be on Lake Tahoe. Yeah, it was on the way to Lake Tahoe that we stopped at some incredibly mountainous place where we had pancakes. And the pancakes were good so I think we should go back to that. Jessa: Well, okay. Katrina Ruth: I have no idea where it was. Well anyway, we'll do it, we'll do it, we'll figure it out. So that's happening. Message me on my personal PMs please, because it can't be fucked with the business page, PMs there annoy me, I won't read them. I make Jessa do it or somebody else. She doesn't do it. Jessa: No, a ninja does it. Katrina Ruth: That's all. Lake Tahoe or Big Bear. Big Bear, hmm. Mount Tamalpais ... Matt: What's the one that starts with Y? Katrina Ruth: Yosemite. Matt: Yeah that's [crosstalk 00:59:42] Katrina Ruth: Yeah, maybe it will be Yosemite. I don't want to do it in Sedona, it's like, so over-rated. What was that expression again? Jessa: Oh, I don't do- Katrina Ruth: I don't do Sedona. We have a little in-house joke going on here. I don't do Sedona. I don't do Sedona. All right, we have to go. It's going for too long. Up you go, they're holding us up. Okay. Watch the replay, message me about Empress or about the other thing, the Sedona thing ... No, not that one. We're not doing that. The Darwin thing. Just send me a message anyway, to tell me how much you love me. And Jessa has a very important finishing statement. Jessa: Oh. Life is now? Press play. Katrina Ruth: Press fucking play. Bye.

Katrina: We are live. Matt: So you just wanna like rest that on you? Katrina: Sure. Katrina: Is this lighting gonna be good with the beach behind it for your videos? Matt: It's gonna be a bit hard to get it all in. Katrina: Hello. Matt: [inaudible 00:00:19] Katrina: I look amazing on my own live stream, but that's a one-time thing. We need it to look amazing on the actual videos. Katrina: Hello, people. People of the internet. Hello and welcome. I'm gonna turn the camera around so Matt can say hi to you. Katrina: Matt's gonna film, filming myself. I'll explain it in a moment. Katrina: So we're gonna do, hello Michelle. Hello, Amber. See, I find that the only way I can sit properly on this throne is to sit up like this, in some sort of a lotus ninja position. But I don't want that- Matt: It's gonna be like just wear your boobs. Katrina: Okay, perfect. Katrina: Hello, floating devil Katrina. Have you seen this? Come and check this out on my live stream. Centre more Katrina, so Matt can see. He's not seeing it yet. Look at those little floaty Katrinas. Katrina: And look that says 1%. Send some press play ones, guys, be helpful. Send some press play ones. Where are the press play ones. It's so cool. There's some Katrinas. They look like little possessed demons. And that says press play. Matt: That's awesome. Katrina: How cool is it? Katrina: Oh, and if you go watch this replay on my page, it has a banner down the bottom that says- Matt: Oh, [inaudible 00:01:36] idea. Katrina: Which is so next level here. High tech as fuck. I feel like my own live stream here is off-center. Who wants to see behind the scenes of creating my new funnel? Who? Who? Well, presumably all of you, or you wouldn't have jumped on. Hi, welcome. I'm gonna explain what we're doing. Hang on, I've gotta tell my team I'm live. I am live. Please share. Okay, don't forget. I'll just tell you right now. Do it right away. I'm messaging Kat [inaudible 00:02:08]. Katrina: I'm about to film, hang on, do you think I need my press play cushion in the frame there? Matt: I wouldn't see it in this but if you want [inaudible 00:02:17]. Katrina: Okay, yes. Pass it over. Throw it over. Katrina: It's happening here. Katrina: You can never have too many sparkles in a live stream. That's a proven fact. It's in the Wikipedia. Katrina: Oh, that's better. All right. Welcome to the show. Do you know what? Remind me always if we're filming and I have a hairband on my wrist, 'cause I'm always shitty about it afterwards. Lucky I just noticed. I'm shitty about it when I see the footage. Katrina: So Matt's here doing my professional videography. He's gonna create a new episode of what's it even called? Katrina Ruth Unchained or is it still called Kat Unchained? Matt: Kat Unchained. Katrina: Kat Unchained, if you don't know is one of my, it's my publicly created and edited and put together show which Matt films, edits, creates, Katrina: And it shows lots of cool insights behind the scenes of what I'm doing and what my team's doing and how I bring things to life. You should go check out previous episodes of that. You would get a real cool insight into the journey that is me. Even the journey of the evolution of Kat Loterzo into Katrina Ruth. Katrina: And today we're gonna create a new episode of that, 'cause why would you not? We haven't done it for ages, 'cause people are just travelling merrily around the world too much. Katrina: But we're also gonna film three videos, I think it's three videos. Let me find the three specific short videos that will only be like two to three minutes each and we're gonna use these videos, me and my team are gonna use these videos in my new funnel marketing. So i thought that rather than selfishly film only by myself and then you had to wait till you saw it on a Facebook ad and then you didn't understand what I'm even doing, why would I not just share with you the behind the scenes? If you love that idea and you think I'm amazing, send me extra love, hot emojis and extra press play ones. No, 1% ones, 'cause they're pink and they match the throne. Katrina: How's your footage? Am I all set up properly? Matt: Yeah, it's good here. Katrina: Before we start, I wanna remind you, thank you [Min 00:04:18], for dropping that comment right there. Before we start, I would love to remind you that there are, or tell you, because you might not need reminding, 'cause maybe you don't realise this but there's only three places left for reach out empire. Reach out empire has just begun a couple of days ago. It is my most transformational one on one intensive six weeks one on one, you and me, me and you, us together. I will kick your ass with love and compassion every single day and sometimes a little bit harder than that. You're gonna get super accountability. Super alignment. Super ass kickery and all the crazy results [inaudible 00:04:52]. You should check out just all the testimonies we'll be posting everyday. They are bad ass as fucked. I real, as fucked? I realised I've been, this is a confession. Katfession, you should film this, Matt, we can use this for some kind of little page. Who wants a Katfession? Katrina: Soon, I'll tell you what we're doing with the funnel. Here's my Katfession. Hashtag Katfession. I actually have two. But the first one is, I'm talking to this camera now, just so you know. The first one is I haven't been, pretty much in the entire history of my business or maybe back to the fitness business, I don't show client results. Like, I'll show them like once a year, or I'll sort of mumble mumble them under my breath. Katrina: I consistently get insane client results, like people making crazy amounts of money. Fast. But better still, alignment, random weight loss, which just happens from alignment anyway, whole life up levelled, location free stuff, quitting jobs, getting into [inaudible 00:05:42] relationships, whatever it is. And my clients are telling me this stuff every day. And pretty much for years, pretty much since I was showing bikini body results, like years ago. I just haven't shown that shit. And I think, I wonder if anyone else has done this? I think that I had some kind of reverse weird ego thing going on with it, where I was kinda like, "I don't want people to think I'm just kind of flaunting myself on the internet". Katrina: And so just kind of note it down and obviously, celebrate with the client, but then never tell people. And so I kicked my own ass around it. You've gotta kick your own ass from time to time. You can't wait for somebody else to do it. And I just got over myself and started fucking posting them everyday just since like last Sunday, but they're insane, the results that I've been posting and it's been so inspiring for me, 'cause it reminds me how bad ass my clients are. But I gotta admit, I've always been like, "What in the fuck? Do I not like making money?" I mean, clearly I make a lot of money anyway, actually, which is another thing just relevant to the fact that you make money from your energy, not from whether you post testimonials. But it does make a difference. So there you are. Katrina: So if you wanna see all those, you probably been seeing them all week on Facebook anyhow. Reach out empire. Three places left. This will sell out. My estimation is, my prediction is that it will sell out by lunch time tomorrow my time. So let's say, maybe 24 hours from now. So you wanna message me, message me, message me on my Katrina Ruth personal page right away if you'd like the full details and overview of that. I don't know why this is my new thing. I think it works for me. And I'll get you the details and if it's for you, we will get your ass in, it is one on one. You get unlimited one on one access to me, by the way. And also this is the final chance to work with me at the intensive six-week rapid result level for the significantly lower investment than the only other way that you can work with me one on one, which after this will be my $72,000 Inner Circle. And at some point, of course it's gonna be on reach out empire again, but it's gonna be way later on in the year. Katrina: All right. I had another confession, but I'm gonna save it. You can just stew about it and wonder what it is. It's super embarrassing for me. So we're gonna film three videos. Three videos. Here they are. What we're doing. I hate being under command you guys. I fucking hate it. So I know I said that I was gonna live stream this so that you can see behind the scenes of how we're creating my new funnel and I'll talk you through what I'm doing, because I think that's a nice thing for me to do and it's helpful of me. So I give myself credit for being a nice person and a helpful person, but if you wanna know the real initial reason that I decided to do that, it's because I fucking hate making things under command and then the way that I would feel happier about it is doing my own content at the same time. Even though, technically, this is my own content, 'cause it is for me. Katrina: And [Frank Cohn 00:08:33], who's my private mentor, and is the most hilarious man on the internet and also fucking amazing marketer and the only person I'll listen to on internet marketing has asked me to do this and so indeed, I will. Katrina: So what we're doing is were creating, I believe, a five or it could be five to seven small videos that are gonna be roughly two to three minutes in length each, I believe. Let me check the minute time over here of what they want. Katrina: No, okay. So, Matt, what's your take on this? Hang on, let's put Matt on the camera. People who are talking should be seen. So [Brahman 00:09:05] says it could be up to six minutes, but it can't be six minutes just of Katrina talking, can that mesh together with other interesting random stuff, mash up with testimonials and client footage or be [inaudible 00:09:21] stuff? What do you think about that? Matt: What's this for? Oh, for this. Katrina: The videos. Matt: Yeah, we can do that, yeah. Katrina: We can do that. You heard it. Katrina: All right. Of course we can. Like he's gonna be like, "No, we can't do that. I refuse. I won't do it." Katrina: Okay. So basically, I don't know why I'm worrying about how long I should talk for, 'cause I think we all know that I'm gonna talk for exactly as long as I desire to talk for and when I'm done, I'll be done and not before, but really it shouldn't be longer than five or six minutes, 'cause these videos are for Facebook ads and as much as I do think people love to watch my shit, they're not gonna watch Facebook ad videos for no longer than six minutes and they're probably not even gonna watch six minutes either. Katrina: Brahman says, "I would be okay with the video done professionally for six minutes long, but it can't just be six minutes of Katrina in front of the camera." I think everybody fucking wants six minutes of Katrina in front of the camera. I feel like that's offensive, but maybe not new people who don't know me yet. We would need breakaway shots of purpose-built footage samples from live streams and still images from the Kat archives. While I wouldn't wanna tell you what to say in each video, and indeed she should not, because good luck with that, attached is a high-level storyboard of what could be included in the videos. Katrina: Look how fucking strategic I am. I don't think I've ever done so much planning in my entire adult life. I'm gonna go off script now and do whatever the fuck I want. But basically, what we're gonna do is we're gonna have five, there'll be no business to [inaudible 00:10:44], John. I think you've manifested that I always reply quickly to your comments, 'cause I saw you said that the other day, now I find myself responsively doing it. You've somehow trained me on it. Katrina: I don't know if I care for that sort of neurological conditioning. So what was I saying? Five to seven videos. Here's how it works. You'll get the first video in your newsfeed. The first video is gonna be that one we made in Santa Monica, you know the one Chris produced from, the official one that shows the whole story and bad assery of me. That's a good video if you've not seen it. It's super high-level. Katrina: And then if they watch 25%, this is how the campaign works. If they watch 25% of video number one, numero uno, then they get elevated like in a, what is it, video game. They go to the next level. They get to watch the next video, which is gonna be this one. Katrina talking about journaling. See, even though I love journaling, and I'm totally happy to make a video about journaling, when I read this, my inner mind just goes, "Katrina talking about journaling." Okay, fine. I'll talk about journaling. Katrina: Why, what, when, where, how? We need the video to answer a question. Possible questions could be can journaling change your business overnight? No. But maybe. Okay, fine. Yes. Is this one thing the reason you're constantly stuck in your business? We gotta think of a question. Tell me a good question. Katrina: Don't worry, we'll get it. And then we want breakaway video shots. Video shots of Katrina journaling, still shots of Katrina journaling. Shouldn't be a problem. Okay, so we're doing that. Then we're doing a fitness video. What? No, we're just talking about self-care and fitness. And then we're doing messaging, about messaging and sharing and unleashing what's inside of you with the internet. I'm sure I have many things to say about that. And we're gonna do a sales one, as well. Katrina: Those are the four videos we're gonna film now. I may or may not livestream the whole thing. We're gonna let it be freaking real, right? So it's not supposed to look like no mistakes or something like that. There's gonna be outfit changes for this livestream, just so you know. Because that way, every time they get a new video on their feed, they're gonna see, I chose the scenery myself. They're gonna see the same background, but I'll have a different top on, so it'll look a little bit different in the feed. Katrina: So then each time they watch 25% of a video, they go to the next video, 25% or more and that's what they'll then see in their feed. And so the four videos that I just talked through, they cover what you might know, 'cause I've talked about this a lot on my four daily non-negotiables, right? So some form of inner work, like journaling. Some form of self-care like fitness. Some form of messaging and sharing your work when you're out with the world, and some form of sales activity. I say over and over again, these are the four things that you wanna do each day to be super fucking successful as an entrepreneur creator. Katrina: So the purpose of this funnel, this Facebook ad campaign, is to obviously indoctrinate people into me, into my message, into what I'm here to teach, get to know me, have some fun. We'll probably mash through some client testimonial stuff, as well, of course. And then at the end, or somewhere throughout, what it's gonna be promoting, what the funnel is promoting is my inner circle. Katrina: So as I just mentioned earlier, after these final three places for reach out empire are sold out, then I'm focusing only on the inner circle for some time now and really investing my time and attention into my existing private clients who are in reach out empire, as well as into the inner circle and growth of the inner circle. Katrina: And so, that's what I'm doing this campaign for, as well as obviously, general indoctrination into the Katrina Ruth community. And then there'll be other things that get marketed into the funnel, of course, beyond that. Katrina: So that gives you the whole story, now you're up to speed. Are you good with how it all looks? Matt: Yeah. Any chance we can move the front of it a little bit that way? Katrina: Yes. Yeah, that's good. All right. Let me have some water before we begin. All right, so- Matt: Do you wanna have a look before we shoot the whole thing? Katrina: Yes. Okay, we'll go and look how I look on the camera, because- Matt: Can you sit down for a sec? Katrina: Oh. Katrina: Can you get the whole Grateful Dead top in or not? Matt: I can. Katrina: Because one thing that drives me insane is that when I'm doing my own livestreams I can control my appearance, but when somebody else is filming, I have no fucking idea how I look and I feel very out of control. Katrina: All right. So anyway, what I'm gonna film now. I look amazing. All right, show the people. Good job. All right. We're set. We are safe to continue. Katrina: Anyway, so now basically, I'm just gonna talk to you about journaling, so really you can ignore the fact that I'm filming this behind the scenes and I'm just gonna drop some bad ass value and content on your ass and that way you don't even have to watch all the Facebook ads, you can save yourself the time. Matt: So you just look in this camera? Katrina: I can't talk to you guys, though. Did I put that back in the right spot? Matt: Yeah, that's fine. Katrina: I'm not gonna look at you. I'm gonna look at this camera. All right? Matt: When you're ready. Katrina: Do you know what? I'm having a moment of nervousness. I feel like what I need to do first is just watch a minute of Frank Kern's videos, remind myself of how he intros himself. That's right, people, sometimes I'm not sure of myself and I go into a mild panic. Label Frank Kern. We're all gonna watch a minute of a Frank Kern video now. He has 44,000 views on this video. I adore Frank. He's the president of the internet, if you aren't aware. Did you know that? Matt: Nope. Katrina: Just like I'm the queen of the internet. He has Tony Robbins on his video. I don't have that. Video footage: My name's Frank Kern. About ten years ago [crosstalk 00:16:33]- Katrina: What's happening? He seems to be talking fast. Video footage: ... great joy and honour to work with Tony. He's just a real fun guy and the same person that you see on stage and on screen is the same person you'll sit across the table from. Katrina: All right. I've got it now. I just needed some Frank Kern energy in my soul before I began. I got it now. Thank you, Olga. Katrina: Isn't it funny? 'Cause I have no problem live streaming for like 59 hours straight and it would be such gold content and why couldn't my team just not fucking chop the content out of a live stream and use that for the ads, that's what I get shitty about. As soon as I've got like a topic, Matt notices this more than anyone, 'cause he's the one that has to put up with it, then I'm like I don't feel as natural and I get it done eventually, though. Katrina: And then I'm proud of myself, because I'm continually just exploding past those comfort zones, people. All right, let's talk about channelling now. Do I need to turn like that way? Matt: You can if you want. Yeah. That's probably better. Katrina: So should we turn the whole throne a little bit? 'Cause in my- Matt: Yeah. Katrina: ... off centre now? If you know what I mean? Matt: Yeah. Katrina: Okay. Just the normal everyday sermon, should we turn the whole throne a little bit. All right. So now I'm not gonna look at you guys, but you're gonna get some gold about journaling. [inaudible 00:17:54] for five minutes, okay. Katrina: I'd make a terrible camera woman on a news show. I feel so nervous. Katrina: Hey, it's Katrina Ruth here from the Katrina Ruth show and today I wanna talk to you about the most powerful practise, which has transformed my business and my life and allowed me to bring in multi millions of dollars per year, just by putting my purpose book out into the world, connecting with clients who I consider to be my soulmate clients and doing the work that I know I was born to do in the world. Katrina: What I'm talking about is journaling. Now if you've never heard of journaling, or maybe you've not really dived into this as a practise for yourself, or you don't know much about it, then I know that probably the response you might be having right now is like, "Journaling? How can journaling really change your business or allow you to create anything that you want into your life?" Katrina: And that's exactly what I'm here to tell you. I feel so passionately about this that when I hear that people don't journal, or they don't journal consistently, I kinda feel like as if they would've told me that they don't drink water. I feel like alert. We need to tell somebody. This is the problem. This is like a national disaster. How are you living like this? I mean, I understand that you're somehow surviving and getting by, but do you realise how powerful this practise is to allow you to call in and to create everything in your life? Katrina: Now I've been journaling since I was about six or seven years old. I don't think I was using journaling for manifestation at that point in time. I think I was logically documenting my day, like dear diary, and then when I got a little bit older, I'll admit I used to hide in the bushes in the front yard of my parents home and I would kind of take notes like Harriet the Spy. I would take notes. Some people as they were walking by and then I would make up stories about them. Katrina: But by the time I got to about 18 or 19 years of age, I naturally or maybe I read it in some personal development books, probably heard about it from somewhere, but a lot of it just kinda naturally happened. I love to write, I love to be inside of my own head, I'm a natural introvert and I am a writer first and foremost, and so I started to just naturally journal about a lot of my hopes and dreams and I guess, use it as a way to process my thoughts, but also write down goals and ideas, do brainstorming, make little plans and slowly but surely, over time, I noticed that I had this pretty consistent habit of writing down the things that I wanted in my life, so kind of like, yeah, my dreams and my visions and the things that I wanted to bring to life. Katrina: Probably when I was around 21 or 22 years of age, I started to learn about and understand about manifestation and I know I watched the movie the Secret when it came out, which was roughly around that age for me, as a lot of people did and I was sort of fascinated by this idea that you could just focus on what you want and then create it into your life. Katrina: And pretty much like I do with everything to do with personal development and creating your own reality, I straight away believed, even though I didn't understand how. Katrina: Now if you have that same sort of belief inside of you, even if you don't understand how, then I know that you have so much available for you, that you could literally step into within the next several months, the next several weeks, in fact even now, using the power of instant manifestation. Katrina: And this is exactly how I live now and how my tens of thousands of followers and clients around the world and smaller group of private clients, obviously, but how my extended community and clients around the world operate. We call in our reality. We write into reality the things that we want. Katrina: For me, I've now been journaling in that way since, well, at least when I was 21, 22, journaling my affirmations and dreams and goals down, I'm 38 years old now, and so for well over a decade, for a decade and a half plus, I've been actively writing down what I wanna create and I've been learning different things about journaling and the power of our words along the way. Katrina: What I wanna impart to you is so powerful and so important that I feel like it's almost impossible to get it through to you, but I guess to just kind of make my point here, every single thing that I've written down, that I then held a belief with some faith around has come to life. Katrina: When I look around me, like literally right now when I look around me, I'm in my own studio right now in my home. I've got full wall-to-ceiling ocean views on seven balconies in this home. This is a double story sub penthouse apartment. I've got my own studio. I make millions of dollars a year just by showing up and being me and writing and speaking to the camera like this. Katrina: I work only with bad ass soulmate clients who really align with my message and who I feel like are the same sort of person with me. And they kick massive ass, they take names, they create incredible businesses all around the world doing what they love and on top of that, I've achieved my fitness goals. I continue to achieve and maintain my fitness goals, lifestyle goals, love and romance, fun and adventure, friendships, you name it. And every single one of those things started with me writing down my dreams in a journal. Katrina: So here's what I want you to do. I want you to think about what is it that you really want. Firstly, are you admitting to yourself what you really want? I think one of the reasons that journaling is so powerful is it's kind of like a mirror in front of you, right? It's holding up that mirror in front of you. And you can't run from that. You gotta look there, look it in the eye and look your own inner self or your highest self in the eye and confess what's in there. I think that most people out there are continually running and hiding from their dreams and refusing to pay attention to the message that's coming through them. Katrina: So journaling is a powerful tool to simply acknowledge and let what's inside of you come up and put it into words. Words are powerful. Words create reality. Yes, you can do that without writing them down, however the written word is incredibly, incredibly fucking powerful. Katrina: And so when you write that down, you lay claim to it. You take a stand. You create some accountability around it and you already in fact, start to bring it to life just from writing it down. In fact, there's many different tips and tricks around journaling for how to word things in a particular way that brings them to life faster and that's something I can certainly teach you more on and talk about as we continue our journey of discussion together. Katrina: But for now, I want you to think about what is it that's inside of you that you're hiding that you're not maybe admitting to yourself that you're running from. Can you put that into writing? And then from there, it's a matter of stepping into permission around it, right? So acknowledging first, this is what I want, this is what I desire, this is what I feel is available to me inside of me. Katrina: And then through that process of writing it down, taking the time internally to go, you know what? I'm going to give myself permission. No, I don't know how, I have no clue where to start or what I would do to bring this to life, but I'm going to give myself permission that I do get to have this. That can feel incredibly scary. Journaling is a scary and confronting thing to dive into. Katrina: And from there, though, it's faith. It's faith-based. So if I've given myself permission to have this stuff. If I've acknowledged that it's inside of me. If I then choose to believe and have faith that I could bring it to life, then what aligned action am I going to take as I go into my day? Katrina: And so this simple process might take you 10 to 15 minutes in the morning of just kind of checking in, tuning down, writing down some of the things that are inside of you. You don't then have to go and make an action plan, but it's about the fact that you've set that internal compass. You've pointed yourself in the direction of what you want. It will impact your actions throughout the rest of the day. You can take a moment or two to think of what is an action I would take from a place of really believing in yourself, but you know what? Journaling is so freaking effective, that even if you don't do that, you've literally just moved yourself in that direction. Katrina: So I can't tell you how passionate I am about journaling or I feel like I can't, but I just did maybe a little bit of a decent job of trying to explain that to you. I hope you found it really helpful. I hope you get out there and give this a go and if you have a journaling habit that you think that you could maybe increase a little bit, then I really encourage you to do that. Leave me a comment below. Tell me your experience about journaling and what are you gonna make some changes and shifts in that area. Katrina: I'm Katrina Ruth.Have an amazing rest of the day wherever you are in the world, and do not forget, life is now press play. Katrina: All right. First one done. I have no idea how long that took. How long did I go for? Matt: Four minutes. Katrina: Oh, is that all? Matt: Yup. Katrina: Great. I thought it went way longer. Matt: Oh, actually, it's a lie. Katrina: It's a lie. Matt: Six and a half, seven. Katrina: What do you guys think? Was that helpful around journaling? What's going on? People in the comments are saying they never journaled. Okay, John, you need to watch this whole Facebook ad sequence when it goes live. Everyone freaking journals. For the reasons I just explained. By the way, none of that was scripted. I had no freaking clue what I was gonna say, I just opened my mouth and it popped out. So I had a little few fumbles there, but we'll either leave them in or Matt will edit them out and put some other different footage in there or whatever is needed, right? Katrina: So you just saw me like, I know I didn't freak out for ages. I am pretty practised, I guess at doing this sort of stuff compared to maybe a lot of people. But I still, it doesn't feel comfortable for me to do this stuff. I feel like out of my comfort zone. It's definitely why I put this live stream on, so that I would kind of put myself in that accountability and I knew that it would elevate my energy having you here so thank you and I appreciate you for that. Katrina: I knew that it would provide good content for you, as well. Good content for the YouTube show, so I'm literally creating three pieces of content at the same time, if not more, 'cause then we can pop it on Instagram and all that sort of good stuff also. Katrina: But I guess my point to you is, and this probably should be me just doing the messaging video now [inaudible 00:27:14]. But my point is, you've gotta just start, right? Like I feel so squirmy when I do kind of professionally created content. I don't do it anywhere near as often as I do my normal day-to-day messaging, so I'm less practised at it in that regard, but I still step up and I take that leap and I open my freaking mouth and I let shit come out and I get better and better each time. Katrina: Like even now, how I'm presenting and even how I feel inside of myself compared to when we were filming when we first started working together a couple of years, it's a whole different thing, right? So just wanna remind you of that, if maybe creating a high level of content has been something that you're avoiding in your business. Katrina: Okay. So we're gonna do next video now, which is around self-care. Oh my goodness, this is so good. I'm so excited to speak about this. We're gonna speak about self-care, health and fitness being non fucking negotiable for entrepreneurs, except I'm not allowed to say non fucking negotiable on a Facebook ad, so we'll see how we go. All right. Should I just go? Matt: You gonna change? Katrina: Oh, fuck. Thank you. Matt: [inaudible 00:28:14] Katrina: I better get changed. Matt: Do you want me to, just change it all, that'd be fine. Katrina: Okay. Katrina: All right. We'll be back with an outfit change. Katrina: All right. Matt: Good to go? Katrina: Yes. This is my favourite ever top in the world, 'cause you can see my tatties through it. Look you haven't even seen it yet. Matt: Oh, I haven't. It's sick. Katrina: In front of everybody else. It's like psycho. All right. Just a little intermission there. It's not done yet, though, you guys. Go around here next. I'm getting my boobs done in three weeks. Matt: Are you? Katrina: Yup. It's all happening. Matt: Where you getting that done? Katrina: South port. Dr. Ian McDougall. He's apparently amazing. Katrina: I'm gonna do such a post when I get my boobs done. You know how everybody gets their boobs done and then they pretend that they didn't and they just kind of, they don't say anything about it and they just hope that nobody, but probably particularly their parents won't notice. I'm gonna do the opposite of that. I'm gonna post about it, and I'm gonna blog about why I haven't done it earlier, which was largely just that it wasn't a hell yes for me. But there was also a part of me that was like I'm already so out there, I'm already too much. Kind of like who do you think you are type thing. Like I've already got, you know, I've got like a super successful business and I'm in shape and now I've got tatties all over me and my hair is extra shiny and now what? I'm gonna have boobs as well? It's all too much for the world to handle, so I thought about it, but I felt like it makes me seem like I think I'm all that. Katrina: And so then I noticed a lot of times men will post up about, "Ladies, you don't have to get your boobs done or whatever or change your body or any sort of work done." I haven't had any work done at all, actually, but if I wanted to, I will. And they think that they're putting a supportive post up, but I just find it interesting because women would never put a post up about what men have permission or don't have permission to do on their bodies, but it's kind of like women's bodies are up for grabs as far as conversation around whether you should or shouldn't do that. Like sometimes men will post like, "You should be happy to just be, we love you just as you are." [inaudible 00:30:53] a nice intention that maybe they're trying to be nice, but it sort of feels like it's reverse shaming. Do you know what I mean? Like that if you would do that, then you're not being authentic or real. I feel like I can get so much content out of this. And it should go viral. Right? Matt says yes. Okay, you guys heard it here first. That's happening May 29th. Everybody write it in your diaries. Katrina: We should film a show, not the actual fucking surgery, but there should be a show about that, for sure. Because it's a transformational moment in somebody's life. I feel, I don't know. I haven't done it yet, but I would imagine so. Katrina: Okay, and also I should probably be in the Gold Coast bulletin, 'cause I'm probably the last female in the Gold Coast to get her boobs done. Katrina: Have I changed angles now? Oh, no. You just changed angles. Okay. All right. So now we're talking about fitness and self-care. Matt: You good to go? Katrina: Yeah. Katrina: Hey, it's Kat here. Katrina Ruth from the Katrina Ruth show. Today I am here to give you a little bit of a smack down around fitness and self-care with love and compassion, of course. Katrina: Here's the deal. I have worked with entrepreneurs, high performers, driven creators and bad asses for several decades long and I do indeed classify myself as one of those people and what I've learned in that time is that fitness and self-care is non-negotiable for an entrepreneur or should be, in my opinion, non-negotiable for an entrepreneur. Katrina: And it is something that can drastically and massively improve the results that you're getting in your business, in your income, obviously in your energy, in your happiness, in your ability to access creativity and flow, and even in how much time you have available. Many, many other benefits also. Katrina: Here's the deal though. I don't wanna come in here kind of like, all right, I'm here to kick your ass about fitness and you've gotta get to the gym, and you've gotta be in shape and you've gotta do this and this and this. In fact, not too long ago, I heard that there was some people [inaudible 00:32:51] who were kind of like, I guess you can call it, hating on me, or feeling triggered by me is maybe a better way to say it, because they said, "Oh, you know, that Kat, she just thinks that everybody has to be hot. And she just talks about being hot and being fit all the time". Now , if you don't know me well, then you might not know that my background was in fitness. I was a personal trainer for 13 years and my first online business, which I began in 2006, and which I built up to nearly a million dollars per year income before I transitioned into the business that I've created now, that was a fitness business. Katrina: So it is something I'm very passionate about, that I have a really solid history in. I've been actively involved in the fitness industry now for over two decades, and it's part of my everyday life to this day. Katrina: But let me tell you about this everybody should be hot and fit thing. I may have said everybody should get to be hot. I may have said something like that. In fact, I wrote a blog post around this topic not too long ago when I heard that people were getting like a little bit upset [inaudible 00:33:40], but what I mean is, when I talk about everybody getting to be hot and fit and in great shape is that hot AF energy. Why did I just say AF? Hot as fuck energy. That hot as fuck energy that we should get to experience and be able to [inaudible 00:33:54] into our businesses and lives. Katrina: Hot is an energy, right? And it comes from when you're in a place of feeling really proud of yourself, really good about yourself, and when you know that you're in alignment with your values and with what's important to you and with how you're showing up in your business, in your life, in all different ways and areas. So that's kind of the hot thing, right? Katrina: But if we look at the fitness and self-care thing in a little bit of a broader spectrum way, not just about how you maybe look or how you feel. Let's really consider and look at how this relates to entrepreneurs. To me it's quite shocking and I find it, I guess concerning or I feel sad or worried when I hear that somebody who's really wanting to take over the world and just create an amazing empire during their purpose work in the world is not consistently attending to their fitness and self-care. Katrina: Now, I fully understand and have compassion and empathy around the fact that not everybody has that background or history. I am so grateful that I built this habit before I was even 20 years old and it stood me so well until this day and it's definitely crossed over into many other areas of my life. Katrina: So if you don't have that background or that habit, of course it's gonna feel like something that you don't necessarily have time for, or it feels like it should come second to your business or maybe second to business and being a partner or being a parent or whatever it might be. It feels like something that you know is important maybe or that you do in some sort of a somewhat consistent fashion, but that it kind of gets left off on the days when you're busy or on the days when you've got a lot of balls in the air with your business or in the times when you don't really feel like it. Katrina: So I fully get all of that and I'm the same as anyone else, I have habits that I'm still working to implement. Fitness, however, is a habit that's really well implemented for me in my business and life and I really, literally, legitimately consider it to be non-negotiable. It's something that along with journaling, along with daily messaging in my business and sharing what's inside of me, along with sales activity, these four things, fitness being one of them, I consider non-negotiable and I make sure that they happen everyday. Katrina: The reason is, that I know that when those four things come together on a day-to-day basis, I'm moving the needle in all critical areas in my business and life. I'm progressing forward. I'm creating momentum. I'm creating results. And these things all work together to just create faster and faster momentum, flow, results, outcomes, access to the super powers that are inside of me, you name it, right? Katrina: So I feel like when I'm taking care of these four areas, and this is what I teach my high-level clients in my inner circle for example, as well, that I've taken care of the big blocks that are really gonna move me forward. Katrina: Of course there might be a million other things that I wanna get done for the day, which may or may not be given some time and attention through the day, but you know what? Even if all those extra things are ignored, if I take care of my own inner work, my mindset work like my journaling, my fitness and self-care in some way, shape or form, whether it's at the gym, or whether it's elsewhere, my messaging and sharing with the world and my sales activity, that's gonna get me going forward even if everything else got ignored completely, right? Katrina: So where fitness really comes in is it's not something that takes time and energy, it's something that gives you time and energy. In fact, just the other day I was having a conversation with one of my closest friends and she was saying how she's just been eating so much more while in a fitness routine, and she was kinda like, "Isn't that weird?" And I was like, "Not really, because of course you're gonna overeat when you're not working out, because working out gives you energy". So if you're not getting that energy from going and moving your body and moving your digestive system and kind of moving your mind, as well, and clearing out the cobwebs, then you're gonna naturally go reaching for and looking for energy elsewhere. Katrina: And particularly for an entrepreneur and somebody who's building a business from home and maybe you've got kids running around or you just got a hectic life going on and you're kind of on the go, or perhaps you travel a lot, like me. It's really easy to obviously just reach for kind of convenient foods that are not necessarily ideal or even maybe you're trying to be a little bit healthier but it's a load of protein shakes and protein bars and that sort of thing, which is not necessarily real food. Katrina: Look, I'm not here to school you on this what you should eat. I actually don't follow a diet at all. I eat intuitively. I work out intuitively. But what I am here to say and to suggest to you, is that if you were to start making a small amount of space and time for your fitness and self-care everyday, even like 20 to 25 minutes where you gave some sort of time and attention to taking care of your body, to moving it, to expanding it, to freeing it up, to going into some kind of a physical, or mental or spiritual meditation, which can come about from that, that you're gonna find that you have time abundantly given back to you, energy given into you, you clear out any sort of kind of messiness that's going on emotionally, or you had that's distracting you form being in flow in your work. You sort out problems. I like to set intentions at the start of my work out time. Katrina: There's so many benefits that go far and beyond the obvious kind of like, if you want a gym body type thing. If you want that, cool. But really what we're talking about here is getting your body working inside and out in the way that it was meant to. So I really urge you to consider what building blocks you have in place in your business and life at the moment. Katrina: Are you taking care of the fundamental things that are actually gonna elevate you into being that next-level version of yourself who automatically has the energy, the confidence, the creativity and the access to super flow required in order to show up for all the different areas of your life. I don't think I gotta remind you when you're taking care of yourself inside and out, it's not about how you look, it's about how you feel, which dictates how you look and certainly also dictates how you're showing up and what you're putting out there for the world. So I know you have massive dreams and so much you wanna accomplish here and it's all available for you. Everything you feel inside of you is always available. Katrina: We've gotta look at, if I'm gonna be that person, if I'm gonna be that next-level version of myself, and also accomplish all these fricken things in my business and life, I gotta take care of myself like a well-oiled machine, right? I've gotta treat myself as a premium machine. I've gotta treat myself as a temple, basically, that's gonna last for life and that is gonna be operating at a standard of excellence such that I can do all these amazing things that I wanna do into the world. Make millions of dollars. Impact millions of people and change the whole fricken thing. Katrina: That's it for me for today. Leave me a comment below. Tell me about your fitness routine. I'd be happy to answer any questions. And don't forget. Have an amazing rest of the day wherever you are in the world. Life is now press play. Katrina: All right. [inaudible 00:40:08] is watching. That's our second video completed. Cool. How long did that one go for? Matt: Almost eight minutes. Katrina: Eight minutes? We might have to chop some bits of it out. Actually, what do you think? Eight minutes? Too long? My brother's on the live stream. Okay, what are you guys talking about? We have shows here about that. About what? About the boobs or the fitness? Okay. I'm gonna go straight into the next one. Katrina: If you jumped on late to this live stream, we're filming some videos here for my new marketing campaign, teaching people the fundamental stuff that I believe is really important and that can change your business and life, so you're getting all my best secrets right now. We're gonna make these into some bad ass Facebook ads and we're gonna open up the inner circle. There's so many new bad asses. Ash says can work with eight minutes. I'm sure we could chop bits of that out anyway. Matt: Did you wanna change tops? Katrina: Yes. I forgot again. All right. We're gonna go into the messaging video next so if you wanna hear me talk about how to message and why it fricken matters, communication with your audience, stick around. Katrina: [inaudible 00:41:50] Katrina: I think you could wear it over the, check it out, I'm wearing my bodysuit on top of my pants. Looks like I'm about to record a 1980s video for fitness. I'm gonna do a fitness video now. But you won't see that on the video. On my own video. Matt: Where's the kids? Katrina: They are probably at [inaudible 00:42:17] digging through [inaudible 00:42:18] toys. She picks them up today. Matt: [inaudible 00:42:24] Katrina: Oh my God. Ashley, I don't know. Can you remind me, you just reminded me that when we're in L.A., are you gonna be in L.A. July 11 and 12th still? Matt: Probably. Katrina: Oh my god. Matt: I could. Katrina: If you are, you can film [inaudible 00:42:36]. Katrina: And we're all gonna go to Ashley's new house in L.A. and have a slumber party there. But I'm doing, you know I did the retreat here in November. I'm doing the L.A. one in July at the Paley House in West Hollywood, which by the way, I haven't told any of my clients yet and I just randomly announced, so just so you know. Katrina: Can you get me some let warmers and then we can do a fitness video? Katrina: All right. Yes, Ashley or John O., remind me we're gonna film a hip hop music video with my clients and we're definitely gonna film like body suit and leggings fitness video together and Matt's gonna film it. He just found out about that right there. Katrina: Everyone's gonna go to Ashley's place and we're gonna have martinis. 'Cause she's moving to L.A., my friend actually. I don't know if you'd remember, but you would know her if you saw her. She's from Sydney. So she's moving to L.A., so we're all just gonna go sleep there. Katrina: All right. Now I've lost my train of thought 'cause I got very excited about we're gonna do the hip hop video and the fitness video. It's actually critical. If you're joining the inner circle, just to let you know, you're gonna be involved in shenanigans. It's actually a requirement. It's part of the initiation, except the initiation just keeps going forever after you joined. Katrina: We leave tomorrow. Shit. Shout out. Following your dreams. Moving to fricken L.A. Bad ass. Katrina: Okay, now we gotta focus. Freaking focus. People stop distracting me. So now we talk about messaging. Katrina talking about sharing her message. Why? What? When? Where? How? Possible questions could be how to create and distribute your message anywhere. Spend 6% of your day on this? I spend my whole day messaging. My whole life is message. My whole life is monetizable. I'm just like, if you come into my life, just know that you're gonna be turned into content. I'm just letting you know. Literally. Katrina: All right. I'm ready. Maybe give me like some kind of sign when I get to five minutes, though. I feel like I'm just gonna get longer and longer with each one, 'cause I'm getting more excited. Matt: [inaudible 00:44:45] Katrina: Yeah. Cool. Katrina: All right. Katrina: Hey, it's Kat here from the Katrina Ruth show. Today we are gonna talk about one of my very favourite things to talk about of all, which is messaging and specifically, unleashing your message, your ad, what's inside of you onto the world. And the reason that you would wanna do that is, because you wanna do it. Actually, if you're watching this and you resonate with me and the things that you've maybe been seeing and you feel coming through from my bad ass little videos that I'm making for you, then I'm gonna guess that you are naturally one of those people like myself, like my incredible inner circle private clients, who wants to be seen and wants to be heard. Katrina: Let's just be honest. When you're having a party or you're having a dinner, or you're at someone's thing, you are the one who wants to be the centre of attention and you get kinda loud and kinda shouty and kind of excited, and you tell amazing stories and really, everybody should just shut up and listen to you, right? Right. Katrina: I know this for sure, because it's how I am. It's how my eight year old daughter is. It's how every single one of my inner circle clients are. In fact, it's hilarious when we all get together, because you've basically got a whole room full of people that all think that they're the one person who should be talking and I've even had clients tell me that they get kind of shitty at me when I'm presenting my own retreat or event, 'cause they're kind of like, "When will she shut up so that I can talk?" Katrina: So if that's you and you know that you have powerful stuff inside of you to share with the world, you know that people should actually be paying just to listen to you and to be around you, then I've got fabulous news for you and you may already know this, but I'm just gonna kick your ass with it a little bit more. You can get paid to do this stuff. You can get paid to share your message. Like literally just what you're thinking and feeling with the world on a day in day out basis. Katrina: It is actually exactly how I built my online business to where it now makes multi six figures per month, so it's a multiple seven-figure online business, continually growing. All I actually do is live my life and be me. Okay, I feel like I'm gonna hiccup. It's under control. Katrina: And document that. And show what's inside of me. And so I write a daily blog. It's called the Daily Ass Kicker. I love to write. I'm a writer first and foremost, so there's no rule that you've got to write a daily blog post or anything like that, but that's what I like to do. Katrina: I like to create videos, as well. I do a lot of Facebook live streams. In fact, right over here I've got a Facebook live stream happening at the same time as filming this video for you. Katrina: So I'm continually sharing my message. So messaging is simply the process of sharing your message with the world. And by me doing that and doing it consistently for some time now, for a period of years in fact, on the internet, I've been able to attract in my soulmate clients from all around the world. Women and men who think like me, who know that they're born for more. Who know that they're that 1% within the 1% person, who always also have something to share with the world. Katrina: I've been able to build a location-free lifestyle where I'm never bound to any time or place. I can go where I want when I want with my children. I made amazing friends with people all around the world. I've been able to get this amazing apartment that I love and I guess all the other dream things that I've got in my life. Katrina: But mostly, I've been able to step fully into my purpose work and into a life where everyday I get to wake up and all I gotta do is open my mouth and open my soul and be myself. Katrina: And that's the crux of my whole entire business. I would certainly love to share with you a little bit about how that works, because here's the deal on messaging. There's a lot of people on the internet who are posting stuff online, right? I don't gotta tell you. So posting blog posts, Facebook live streams, YouTube stuff, Instagram stuff, you name it, it's out there. Katrina: However, what is very rare, and the reason why powerful entrepreneurs [inaudible 00:48:26], perhaps even including you, and not getting paid the way that they should be getting paid, is that they're sharing the surface space. Katrina: They're sharing something where it's like okay I told a story. Or I wrote an inspiring blog post or a motivational blog post or I totally [inaudible 00:48:42], or yeah, I did a Facebook live or I did a video or whatever it is. It's got to have the soul in it. Katrina: For me messaging is firstly so easy, it's not something that I find difficult or that I've gotta think about like to think about how to write a blog, how to do a live stream. Yes, I get nervous. In fact, I was freaking out before I filming these videos, 'cause I just felt self-conscious about doing professional videos, which I'm doing today for you. Katrina: All right? So it's not about not having all that. But I don't have to think about what to say. I don't think about what to say ever any day of the week at all, and I create a lot of content. And the reason is that I don't think about it, is that I give myself permission to just say what's inside of me, right? Katrina: So messaging kind of all the time. I write a lot of content and I produce a lot of content, but yet I feel like I'm not really doing anything. I feel like I'm just expressing what's inside of me and that's what I love to do as a person, anyhow. Just the same way as my eight year old daughter and my four year old son want people to shut up and listen to them. And they're not like this is work. I've gotta get paid in order to express myself and make people stop what they're doing and listen to me. That's what they want. Just like that's what I want and that's what I know you want. Katrina: But for this to work, it's not only understanding that it is about just sharing what's truly inside of you and not making it complicated. Not trying to plan it out, not trying to think it out. It's also about understanding that for messaging to work and for you to build a business, based on you as a messenger, as an artist, creator, leader, then you've gotta be giving people the whole truth. The truth, nothing but the truth, and also the whole truth. Katrina: So yes, that means the stuff that feels really vulnerable or scary to share. Or maybe you think like a lot of my clients think and I have this conversation frequently with my high-level clients. Oh, that's like embarrassing, or I feel self-conscious or is that good enough or who am I to speak about this or I already said that a million times. I feel like everything I'm saying is being repetitive. Katrina: These are all exactly the sort of things I fully understand because I've had all those thoughts myself and I work on it continually with my clients and what it's about is plain and simple. Katrina: What if you got out of your own way? What if you dropped your story and dropped all the bullshit about whether or not what you have is good enough or whether you're good enough and what if you just gave what's inside of you permission to live and permission to be expressed and permission to get out there into the world. Katrina: So when I feel stuck or unsure or when my clients feel stuck or unsure, I remind myself or I remind them, it's not about you. It's about the message. Take a deep breath. Do what you gotta do. Put some music on. Put some [inaudible 00:51:06] on. Have a coffee. Whatever. And then let what's inside of you out. Imagine the power of what could happen in your business and life if you just consistently, every day, starting today, began to share what's inside of you in an unfiltered and no holds barred way. Katrina: I challenge you to do this. Drop me a comment below. Tell me when you went and posted a new message. Leave a link, even. I'd love to see it. Have an amazing rest of the day and do not forget. Life is now press play. Katrina: Okay. Hey, Laura. Get out your own way and save lives. Exactly. Katrina: All right. Shot out to everyone that's just jumping on. We are over here filming behind the scenes here. Filming for my new funnel. There's Matt. He's doing my video work. He's gonna match up some amazing Facebook ads from what we're doing today. I'm just live streaming so you can see behind the scenes. We've got one more to do, I believe. And that is around sales activity. So if you'd like to hear me talking about how bad ass, how bad ass? I don't know. That doesn't really relate to what I was gonna say. Katrina: If you'd like me to talk about sales activity. I'm gonna do it whether you'd like it or not. But if you'd like to listen, then you can listen on for this next final video. Katrina: Hang on, wait. Ashley, if you're still in the live stream. I sent you a what's app that I need you to enter. Okay, I have a client here. A bad ass client, who's like do I wanna meet you in New York or L.A.? I think both. Oh, do I wanna do fourth of July in New York or L.A.? What say you, Facebook? Where should I do New York, or where should I go? Matt: L.A. Katrina: Matt says L.A. You recon? Why? Matt: It's fun. Katrina: [inaudible 00:52:44] fun here. Matt: I'd rather be in New York on the fourth of July, so L.A. was fun. Katrina: Okay. L.A. it is. You've heard it here. Katrina: All right. Oh, hang on. I've gotta change again. Forgetting every time. All right. One more outfit. One more video. And then I think there was one other little video, but we'll do that off camera. Katrina: Okay, I'll be back and we'll do the sales video. Hey, hey to everybody who just jumped on. Katrina: All right. I'm making a rare appearance in a t-shirt. I basically never wear sleeves. Look at this cool shirt. [Collette 00:53:32] bought it for me. By the way, you don't have to wait for the, my hand looks massive. You don't have to wait for the Facebook ads to drop in your feed if you know that you're already supposed to be in the inner circle and by the way, you could still get into the room for our July retreat. Oh my goodness. Next-level [inaudible 00:53:55] and money making is what goes down on those retreats. It's always next-level inappropriate shenanigans. You should message me about that now if you know that that's the level you wanna play at. I can tell you all about it. Katrina: Okay, so now. What? More videos? I thought it was only one. All right. Okay. We're gonna do sales activity. So now I'm gonna talk to you for a few minutes about sales activity. Katrina talking about selling naturally. Electrolytes. Going out shirt. How good is this? Just so people know, I'm not going anywhere. Sitting right here on my throne. I guess we'll go out later then. And so some footage of me drinking espresso, 'cause we haven't done that enough times. Matt: And it's Friday. Katrina: And it's Friday. So clearly, it's required. Katrina: Sales is not a dirty word. Do you know what? I don't even wanna fucking market to anybody that thinks sales could be a dirty word. They can all go mosey on along to another town. How selling is a daily non-negotiable in my business. So I'll talk about that. All right. I think we can do it. Katrina: Actually, I'm gonna put some more pink lipstick on for this video. Katrina: [crosstalk 00:55:43] Katrina: Do you think that there's a single man in the world that thinks having those plumped lips where it sticks out on the side is a good idea? I think John's the only man on this live stream. But Matt said no, so John, add your vote. Katrina: We were just talking about it while I was in there fixing up my lipstick. All right. Ready? Do the five-minute thing again. Matt: Okay. Katrina: Hey, it's Kat here from the Katrina Ruth show and I am so fricken [inaudible 00:56:19] excited today, 'cause I'm gonna talk about one of my four daily non-negotiables, which is sales activity. If you've been watching my videos pop through your feed, then you'll know that my four daily non-negotiables are in fact, daily mindset work in journaling of some kind. Getting connected to that inner game. Setting your internal compass so that you go in the right direction. Fitness and self-care, of course. Non-negotiable for entrepreneurs and driven bad asses like you and I. Katrina: Some form of messaging, because you are in fact a messenger, a leader, an artist, a creator, and you wanna share what's inside of you with the world and then fourth and finally, selling. Because guess what? If you wanna be an entrepreneur, if you are an entrepreneur, [inaudible 00:56:58] of course, but if you want to have a successful business, you are going to need to sell. You're gonna need to make money in some way. You need to ask for money. Katrina: Whether you're asking energetically or like on the actual internet, by telling people on Facebook to buy stuff from you. I did not really make any money in the first three years of my online business, actually, I must admit. So I started marketing in 2006, except I wasn't marketing at all, I was blogging. Katrina: And for the first few years, I made no money at all and it took me maybe two and a half years before I realised that the key reason that I wasn't making any money was that I wasn't actually selling anything. So I just kinda laugh about it, but the truth is, I didn't set out to be a marketer, I set out to write or be a blogger and then gradually, back then, twelve years ago, I gradually kind of started to learn that this internet thing was somewhere that you could make money. Katrina: I've actually always been really good at sales, and so, you know, from a young age, I've been selling things and I've always had a hustler side. Hustle. Even as a little kid. When it comes to online marketing, I've been marketing online for over 12 years now. I've made millions and millions of dollars on the internet. I've gradually evolved and fine tuned my business to where it's completely based on me getting to wake up each day, do what I love, make money for my purpose work and live my life on my terms so somebody I met recently said to me when they kind of connected on Facebook and how to look at my life and my business like, "Wow. You're really living the dream, hey?" And I said yeah, I am. And I did the work for it. And so I'm really proud of myself, with what I've created and I'm very passionate about sharing how to create a business and a life that's location free and freedom-based and purpose-based for women and men who are like me. Katrina: And when I say like me, I mean you've always known that you were born for it, that you were born for more. You've always known you're here to make millions. Impact millions and even change the world. And you've always known that there's something powerful inside of you to get out there to the world. And so if that's you, well, probably if you're watching this, then you're already showing up online in some way, shape or form. Katrina: You might be early on in your journey or you might be well down the track and you're already making a lot of money. Sometimes I have clients come to me who jump into my inner circle working with me privately, who are already making 10, 20K, 30K, 50K a month. Other times, they're completely starting out and there's no money coming in yet. But what joins my clients together and the reason that my clients get such rapid results, big money leaps and bounds, big alignment leaps and bounds, big lifestyle shift leaps and bounds, as well as all other areas, is because they are that person who has that inner flame and who's always known that they're gonna do something amazing with their life. Katrina: So if that's you and you relate and maybe you are already selling on the internet or selling off the internet, or wherever it is that you're selling, I just wanna remind you, though, that if you just make something like daily selling and sales activity part of kind of who you are, if you make it inherent to who you are, and you make it habitual, then you can elevate your income 10 times, 20 times, I believe even 100 times more in a very, very rapid period of time. Katrina: Now this is obviously not just about how much freaking money can we make on the internet? That's amazing and it's super cool. And it allows us to have an incredible impact into the world doing our purpose work. I don't think I need

An interview with Alison Gianotto / Snipe, creator of Snipe IT Snipe.net Snipe-IT @snipeyhead Editing sponsored by Larajobs Transcription sponsored by GoTranscript.com [music] Matt: All right, cool. All right. Welcome back to the latest episode of Laravel Podcast. It's been a little bit of a break for those of you who tune in to every new episode, but I've got another great interview here. As with every single one, I'm interested and excited to introduce someone to you. Some of you have heard of before, a lot of you might not know that she actually works in Laravel. Either way, it's going to be great. This is Snipe. Although in my head, you have been Snipeyhead because I feel that's been your Twitter name for a while. Real name, Alison Gianotto, but I'm probably just going to end up calling you Snipe for rest of this call. Before I go in asking you questions, the first thing I want to do is just I always ask somebody, if you meet somebody in the grocery store who you know isn't technical at all, and they ask you, "What do you do?" What's the first way you answer that question? Snipe: I say I work with computers. Matt: Right, and then if they say, "My cousin works with computers and whatever." Where do you go from there? Snipe: Well, it depends on their answer. If they say, "Do you fix computers?" I'm like, "Not exactly." If they say, "Really? What type of computer work do you do?" I say, "Well, I'm a programmer." They're like, "So you make games?" "Well, not exactly." If they say something like, "Mobile apps or web? What languages?" Then I'm like, "Okay, now I can actually have a conversation." I don't do it to be disrespectful to the person asking. It's just confusing to them, and so I like to keep it bite-sized enough that no one gets confused. Matt: If you talk to a grandma in a store who doesn't have much exposure with computers, and you say, "Well, I work in InfoSec with blah-blah-blah." Then she's going to go, "Huh?" I totally hear you. If somebody does ask and they say, "You know what? I actually work in Rails," or, "I know what a framework is." How do you answer someone when they are more technical? Let's say, somebody-- You understand that this person is going to get all the names that you drop. Where do you go from there? How do you tell someone about what you do? Snipe: I actually usually say that I run a software company. I say, "I run a small software company that basically works on open source software." Usually, they look at me like, "How do you--" Matt: How do you make money? Snipe: Literally makes no sense. [laughter] Matt: Which is where we're going to go. Let's actually go there. Snipe-IT, it's a company that has an open source product. I'm guessing that you make your money by paid support plans and hosting plans. Right? Then you also have the whole thing available for free in open source? Snipe: That's correct. Yes. Matt: Could you give us a little pitch for anybody who doesn't know what Snipe-IT is, and what it does, and who it's for? Snipe: I'm so bad at this. I'm the worst salesperson ever. Matt: Well, I'm helping you grow. [laughter] Matt: Thirty seconds or less. Snipe: If you have any kind of a company and you buy assets like laptops, or desktops, or monitors, you need to keep track of them and you know who has what, what software is installed on what. Then usually I'm like, "I've got this nailed. I've got this nailed." Then I end up saying, "It's not a very sexy project, but people need it." [chuckles] Matt: Right, right, right. You have to justify yourself in your sales. Snipe: I know it. I really do. I'm really the worst at it. People get really excited. We're going to DEF CON this year like we usually do. I'm actually bringing my whole crew. Matt: Cool. Snipe: Because I really want them to be able to experience the way people react when they realize that we are Snipe-IT because they just get so excited. I've had people run across the conference floor to give me a hug that I've never met. Matt: Wow. Snipe: It's really cool. There was another time I was talking to, I think, YTCracker on the conference floor. He introduces me to one of his friends. He's like, "Yes, she's got a IT asset management software." He's like, "Really? I just heard about one of those. That was really great." I know exactly where this is going. I'm watching him look at his phone. He's like, "Yes, I just heard about it. It's really amazing. I think through your competition." I'm just sitting there smirking and I'm like, "Okay." Totally, I know exactly where this is going, but I let him spend five minutes looking it up on his phone. He's like, "It's called Snipe It?" I just look at him like, "Hi, I'm Snipe." [laughter] Snipe: It was actually wonderful. Matt: It's one of the benefits not just of having the company, but actually naming it after yourself. You're like, "No. I'm actually the Snipe. That's me." Snipe: I'm excited to bring my crew out to DEF CON this year so they can really get to experience that first hand. Because like anything else in open source and in company support in general, a lot of times, you only hear the negative stuff. You hear about when something is broken or when something doesn't work exactly the way they want it to work. To actually get just random people coming up-- I'm getting us swag. I'm getting us t-shirts printed out. I'm super excited. Matt: I love it. There's nothing like having the opportunity to see the people who love what you're doing to really motivate you to go back and do it again. I hear that, for sure. Snipe: Definitely. Open source can be really tough with that because for the most part, the only thing that you're hearing is, "It doesn't work," or, "Why doesn't it do it do this thing?" Or people telling you how they think your software should work. To just get basically unbridled love, it really recharges me. It makes me want to work on a project even harder. Matt: Plus, the phrase unbridled love is just fantastic. [laughter] Matt: It should be in our lexicon more often. Snipe: I agree. Matt: It's asset management software. I'm imagining I've got a 500-person company, and every single person gets issued a laptop within certain specs. After it's a certain amount of time old, then it gets replaced. We're going to make sure they have the latest build of whatever, Windows and the latest security patches, and that kind of stuff. It's at the point where you don't have-- My company has, I think, 17 people right now. There is just a spreadsheet somewhere. This is when you get to the point where a spreadsheet is really missing people. People aren't getting their upgrades. People don't have security updates. My guess was the reason there was InfoSec involved in this at DEF CON is because security updates is a big piece of why that's the case. Did I assume right? Could you tell us a little bit more about how InfoSec and security are related to what you're doing here? Snipe: You're kind of right. We don't currently have a network agent, so we don't have anything that listens on the wire. We do have a JSON REST API, though. Basically, we're now working with folks like Jira, Atlassian, and we're going to be working with a JaMP API to try and basically make that stuff easier. I feel like its out of scope for us to try and build another networking agent, but we have an API. If we can just build those bridges, then it just makes it a little bit easier. Ultimately, in terms of security, the real reason why I think people in InfoSec appreciate this tool, especially given the fact that we don't have-- And some people in InfoSec actually like the fact that we don't have a monitoring agent because that actually becomes a separate problem in and of itself. Let me give you a backstory on why I created this in the first place. Matt: Please do. Snipe: Maybe that'll help explain a little bit more. I was the CTO of an ad agency in New York City. We had grown from-- I think I was employee number 12, and we were now at 60 something people. We were using a Google Sheet shared between three IT people, some of which were not necessarily the most diligent- [laughter] Matt: Sure. Snipe: -about keeping things up to date. Basically, when you've got a single point of truth that is no longer a single point of truth, it becomes a bit of a hellish nightmare. Additionally, if you're repurposing-- Because it's an ad agency, so you have a lot of turnover. You don't have any history on any particular asset if this asset is actually bad. If the hard drive on this is actually just bad and should be replaced. If this is bad hardware, then we should consider just unsetting it, and getting a brand new box, whatever. We had to move offices. We were moving our main office and also our data center. Of course, when you're trying to move a 60-person company, and servers, and everything else, the very first thing that you have to do is to know what you have. That was an enlightening experience. It basically turned out that we had about $10,000 worth of hardware that we just didn't know where it was anymore. Matt: Wow. Snipe: People got fired. This is basically before I was a CTO and before I had set up the exiting process. People had been fired or had quit and just taken their laptops with them. That's got company data on it. That was a huge, huge issue for us. I was like, "Okay, we need something that we can integrate into our exit strategy or exit process to make sure that we're reclaiming back all of the data that--" Because some of those stuff is client data. It's actually really sensitive from a corporate perspective. Also, sometimes it's customer data. It was really important to have a way to handle that a bit better. That's it. The asset part is the most important part of that software. We do have support for licenses where the cloud offering portion of that is not as fully developed. We're going to be building in a services section soon. That will describe, for example, if you had Snipe-IT as a vendor, where would we fit in this ecosystem for our customers? We don't actually have a good answer for that. We're going to be building out a services section that lets you know how much money you're paying every month, how many seats you have. Matt: That's great. That would cover not just global stuff, but also individual subscriptions like Adobe and PHP-- Snipe: Sure, sure. Matt: Cool. That's awesome. Snipe: Licenses are really hard. They're hard because you can have-- One of our customers actually has a hundred thousand licenses. Matt: Oh, my Lord. Snipe: Because you've got this notion of a software license and then a bunch of different seats. There are some licenses that have one seat, and only one seat they only ever will. Then there are ones that have tens of thousands. For example, Microsoft Suite. If you have a large company, you're going to have a lot of those licenses. One of the things I care really deeply about in Snipe-IT, and I think one of the reasons why we've been successful in this really saturated marketplace, because it is a really saturated marketplace, is that I care a lot about the users' experience. I know, for example, that our licenses section, the UI on that, the UX on that is not as optimized as it could be. That will be the next thing that we're really tackling is because it is a popular section. It's one that because of the nature of the variability of licenses, makes that a really tricky UX problem to solve. That's one of the things that I love about this work is getting to solve those kinds of problems. Matt: You're just starting to make me interested in this which means you're doing your job of the sales pitch. You said you got something you're super comfortable with. Snipe: [laughs] Matt: I always struggle-- Somebody made a joke and they said something like, "It's a drinking game for how many times Matt says 'I could talk about this for hours' during a podcast." Snipe: I did see that, yes. Matt: We're there already. [laughter] Matt: I want to step back from Snipe-IT just a little bit. Snipe It, I want to call it Snipe It now that you said that. Snipe: Please don't call it that. [laughs] Matt: I won't, I promise. Think a little bit about what got you to here, and what got you to the point where you're a name and an online persona. I saw you had some interactions with @SwiftOnSecurity the other day. Everyone got all excited seeing the two of you interacting. What was the story? I want to eventually go back to when you got into computers in the first place. First, what was the story of the process of you going from just any other person on the Internet, on Twitter, on GitHub, or whatever to being a persona that is relatively well-known across multiple communities? Snipe: I can't really answer that for you because I don't really understand it myself. Other than lots of poop jokes-- Matt: It's the best. Snipe: Yes. [chuckles] I think, probably, I've been on Twitter for a while. Also, I was on IRC for a long time. I think I'm still an op in the ##php channel on Freenode, although I don't visit there as often as I used to. I was really involved in that as I was learning PHP, and as I was helping other people learn PHP. I don't know. I've always been a mouthy broad, and I think that's probably worked because whether you like me or not, you remember me. [laughs] Matt: Yes, for sure. Snipe: I'm doing my very best to not swear on your podcast, by the way. I've caught myself at least five times that I'm like, "No, no, no." [laughs] Matt: If it happens, it happens but I appreciate it. Snipe: I'm doing my very best. I'm at a conference-- Matt: Broad was a good one, yes. All right, exactly. Snipe: Yes, I know. Yes, exactly. I was like, "B-b-b-broad." Matt: [laughs] Snipe: Which is an offensive term in and of itself, but it's still- Matt: We toned it down a little. Snipe: -better than the alternative, I think. [laughter] Matt: I love it. Snipe: I'm trying my best here, Matt. Matt: I appreciate it very much. Was it in the world of PHP? First of all, I heard longevity. I've been here for a while. That's always a big win. Poop jokes, that's also obviously big win. Give the people what they want. Snipe: I don't know if I can say dick jokes on your podcast. Matt: Well, you did. There we are. Snipe: Dick jokes are definitely big part of my repertoire. [laughs] Matt: Yes, I know. Being an interesting person, having been around for a while, but was it in PHP, and teaching PHP, and being around in the PHP world for a while, was that the main space where you came to prominence versus InfoSec, versus being open source business owner? Was it primarily in being a PHP personality where you came to at least your original knownness? Snipe: I think probably. Probably, yes. When I grab onto something, I don't let go of it. I've been doing some Perl work. I've probably started with Perl, but that was back in the days when I ran Linux as a desktop on purpose. [laughs] Matt: Oh, my goodness. Snipe: I was writing some Perl stuff. Heard about this this crazy thing called PHP which looked way easier and was way more readable, and ended up writing some-- Now, terribly insecure. I know this now, because it's like 2000, 2001, something like that. Which is for going back a ways. I had just started to put out stupid scripts like e-card scripts and things like that, because they served the need that I needed to have filled. This is a well-known secret, but I worked Renaissance Fairs for a very long time. I was guild member number four of the International Wenches Guild. Matt: What? Snipe: Yes. That's not even the most interesting thing I can tell you. Anyway, I was running their website Wench.org which now looks terrible because Facebook took over that community. I used to have interactive like sending roses to each other. Because in the Renaissance Fair community, different rose colors have different meaning. It's basically like an online greeting card thing with these built-in rose color meanings. You could pick different colors of roses and send them to people that you liked, or people you didn't like, or whatever. Having this playground of a huge community of people who-- Basically, I would post to the forums. I'd say, "I'm thinking about building this. What do you guys think?" By the time they actually answered me, I had already built it anyway. I was just like, "This looks really interesting. I want to see if I can do this." Matt: To do it, yes. Snipe: Yes, exactly. It was really, really cool to have access to, basically, a beta-testing community that was super excited about anything that I put out. It definitely stoked the fires for me, stretching and doing things that I may not have done if I didn't have a reason to do it before. Matt: Well, I love how much passion plays a part there. Not this ill-defined like, "I'm passionate about programming. That means I spend all my free time doing it," but more like-- I've noticed that a lot of people who are a little bit older had PHP-- Actually, just developers in general which is quite a few people I've had on the show. Snipe: Are you calling me old? Matt: Me too. I'm in the group too. Snipe: Are you calling me old? Oh my God. That's it. This interview is over. [laughter] Matt: You're going to burn the place down. I think those of us who started back when becoming a programmer wasn't necessarily going to make you big and rich. There's a little bit of that idea today. Go do a six-month boot camp, and then you're going to be rich or something. I think when a lot of us started-- I'm putting myself in that bucket, in the '90s and the '80s. When we started, it was because it was something that allowed us to do things we couldn't do otherwise. I don't know your whole back story, so I want to hear it, but a lot of the people I've noticed, "I was in the dancing community. I was in the video game community. I was in the Renaissance whatever Fair community." Snipe: I used to work on Wall Street. That was what I was doing before I got into computers. [laughs] Matt: Okay. Well, before I talk anymore, we need to talk about this. Tell me the story. Tell me about Wall Street, and then tell me when did you actually first get into computers? Snipe: I left high school. I was living with my sister in a tent in Montana for about nine months. Then it got too cold, our toothpaste started to freeze during the day. We were like, "F this business." We went down to Colorado because we'd met some friends at Colorado School of Mines. Stayed there for a little bit. Came back to New Jersey, and was like, "Well, I don't want to go to college. I also don't have any money for college." [laughs] There's that. I ended up waitressing for a little bit. Was waitressing, wearing my indoor soccer shoes, because I was a soccer player for 13 years. The coach from Caine College came in to eat at my restaurant. He looks at me with disdain and he goes, "You actually play soccer with those, or are they just for fashion?" Matt: Oh, my goodness. Snipe: I'm like, "Bitch, I was All-State. What are you talking about?" [laughter] Snipe: He's like, "Do you want to go to college?" I'm like, "I guess." He invited me to go to Caine College where I studied education of the hearing impaired for exactly one semester. [laughter] Snipe: I was like, "Holy crap. This is so boring. I can't do this." Not the education of the hearing impaired part. Matt: Just college. Snipe: Yes, it just wasn't my jam. I was like, "I want to move to New York." I moved to New York City. I pick up a paper, and I'm like, "Okay, I'm super not qualified to do any of these things." Basically, I was a leatherworker at a Renaissance Fair. I'd done makeup work for the adult film industry. I'm like, "Um." Of course, the easiest way to Wall Street is sales. I had the most grueling interview I've ever had in my life, because I didn't know anything about real sales compared to retail. I remember sweating so hard. I'd just dyed my hair back to a normal color. You could still see a little bit of green in it, and I'm wearing my sister's fancy, fancy suit. I have no idea what I'm actually going to be doing there. It is literally out of Glengarry Glen Ross, high-pressure sales that they're expecting from me. I'm like, "I'm 17, 18 years old. I have no idea what I'm doing." I managed to pull it out. At the very last minute, I got the job. Matt: Nice. Snipe: Was working at a place that did forex futures. Then they went out of business because the principals moved back to Argentina with all of our clients' money. That spent a little bit of time in the attorney general's office, making it really clear that we had nothing to do with it. Matt: At least it was there and not jail. Snipe: That's absolutely true. It's not that uncommon that the main traders are the ones that actually have the access to the real money. Then we started working at a stock shop. I realized I was working until six, seven o'clock at night, busting my ass all for lines in a ledger. I was actually pretty good at that job, but I also caught myself using those creepy, sleazy sales techniques on my friends and my family. When you catch yourself saying, "Well, let me ask you this." You're like, "Ah, ah." Matt: "I hate myself. Oh, my God, what am I doing?" Snipe: I know. I just realized that I hated myself, and that I didn't want to do it anymore. I quit my job. I had a boyfriend at that time that had a computer. That's pretty much it. I had done some basic programming, literally BASIC programming in high school. Matt: Like QBasic? Snipe: Yes. BASIC in high school. In fact, funny story, when I wrote my first book-- I almost didn't graduate high school because my parents were getting divorced, and I just checked out. I was good in all my classes, I just checked out. I had to pass a computer programming class in order to graduate. My teacher, who was the track coach as well, Coach Terrell, he knew me from soccer. He calls me into his office. He's like, "Alison, I've got to tell you. You just weren't here, and you know that if you don't show up, I penalize you for that. Did really well on all your tests, but attendance is not optional in this class. I just don't think I can pass you." I'm like, "I'm not going to graduate then." He's like, "All right. Well, the thing is that when you're here, you do really good work. I'm going to let you go this time, but you've really got to get your shit together." Matt: Wow. Snipe: When I published my first programming book, I sent him a copy. [laughter] Matt: That's awesome. Snipe: I wrote on the inside, "Dear Coach Terrell, thanks for having faith in me." [laughs] Matt: That's amazing, and you know he has that sitting on the shelf where everyone can see it. Snipe: Yes, yes, yes. Matt: That's really cool. Snipe: That was really nice of him. [laughs] My life would have had a slightly different outcome if I'd had to take some more time, and get a GED, and everything else just because I didn't show up to my programming class. Matt: Wow. Snipe: Anyway, I left Wall Street because I had a soul, apparently. Matt: Turns out. Snipe: It turns out, "Surprise." I totally still have one. [laughter] Matt: It's funny because you're telling me this whole story, and what I'm seeing in front of my face in Skype is your avatar. For anyone who's never seen this avatar, it's got a star around one eye, smirky, slanty eyes, looking down where you're like, "I'm going to get you." It's funny hearing you tell this story, and just the dissonance is so strong of seeing that, hearing your voice, and then hearing you talk about being on Wall Street. Obviously, I'm looking back. Hindsight is 20/20, but seeing this story turned out the way it has so far does not surprise me, looking at the picture of you that I'm looking at right now. Snipe: Mohawk people have souls too. Matt: It turns out, yes. Snipe: I got that mohawk as a fundraiser for EFF. Matt: Really? Snipe: I raised like $1,500 for EFF a bunch of years ago. Matt: You just liked it and kept it? Snipe: Yes. Once I had it, I was like, "Wait a minute. This completely fits me. Why did I not have this my entire life?" Matt: That's awesome. Snipe: Yes, there was a good reason behind it. Matt: Honestly, what I meant is actually the inverse which is that I associate having the soul-- When you imagine a soulless, crushing New York City job where you hate what you're doing, you don't usually associate it with the sense of owning who I am and myself that is associated with the picture I'm looking at right in front of me. Your boyfriend at that time had a computer, you actually had a little bit of history because you'd studied at least some coding. You said primarily and BASIC in high school. Where did you go from there? Was that when you were doing the Renaissance Fairs, and you started building that? Or was there a step before that? Snipe: No. Remember, this is back when the Web-- I'm 42. Matt: I wasn't making any assumptions about what the Web was like at that point. Snipe: I think there might have been one HTML book that was about to come out. That's where we were. If you wanted to do anything on the Web, you basically figured out how to right-click- Matt: View source them. Snipe: -and view source, and you just poked at things until they did what you wanted. There was no other way around that. I realized that I really liked it because it let me say what I wanted to say, it let me make things look-- For what we had back then, we didn't have JavaScript, or CSS, or any of that stuff. Matt: Right. Use that cover tag. Snipe: Yes, exactly. It was enormously powerful to be able to have things to say, and put them out there, and other people could see it. Then I just started to freelance doing that. I was also doing some graphic design for one of those-- It's like the real estate magazines, like Autotrader type of things but for cars. I used to do photo correction for them using CorelDraw, I think it was. Matt: Oh, my gosh, that's a throwback. Snipe: Yes. I'm an old, old woman. [laughter] Matt: I've used CorelDraw in my day, but it's been a long time. Snipe: Our hard drives would fill up every single day, and so we'd have to figure out what had already gone to press that we can delete it off. Basically, Photoshopping, to use Photoshop as a verb inappropriately, garbage cans and other stuff out of people's black and white, crappy photos. Because he was nice enough to give me a job. I offered and I said, "You know, I can make you a website." He's like, "Yes, the Internet's a fad." I was like, "I'm just trying to build up my portfolio, dude, for you for free." He's like, "Yes, yes, yes, it's not going to stick." I'm like, "Okay." [laughs] Matt: All right, buddy. Snipe: That's where it started. Then I think I moved to Virginia for a short amount of time, and then Georgia. Got a job at a computer telephony company where I was running their website, and also designing trade show materials like booths and stuff, which, by the way, I had no idea how to do. No one was more surprised than I was when they took pictures of the trade show and the booth actually looked amazing. Matt: That should look good. Snipe: I was like, "Look, yes." Matt: "Hey, look at that." [laughter] Snipe: That's very, very lucky. There was definitely a lot of fake it until you make it. Also, I've never designed a trade show booth, but trade show booths do get designed by someone, and at least a handful of those people have never done it before. Matt: Right. I'm relatively intelligent person, I understand the general shape of things. Snipe: Yes. Get me some dimensions, I'm sure I could make this work. Matt: What is the DPI thing again? [chuckles] Snipe: Yes, exactly. That was exciting and fun. Then I moved back to New York to teach web design and graphic design at an extension of Long Island University. Matt: Cool. Snipe: Yes, it was actually very, very cool. The school was owned by these two teeny-tiny Israeli ladies. They were absolutely fabulous. It was kind of a crash course in Hasidic and Orthodox Jewish culture. It was in Flatbush, so basically, 90% of my students were Hasidic or Orthodox. I think I broke every rule ever. The two owners of the school would just look at me and laugh. They wouldn't offer me any guidance. They just liked watching. Matt: Well, it would be awkward. Yes. Snipe: Exactly. I'm like, "Why would you do that to me?" [laughter] Snipe: They're just laughing. I could hear them laughing from upstairs- Matt: That's hilarious. Snipe: -when they knew I was putting my foot in another cultural mess. That was really, really fun. I learned a lot from that. I learned a lot about teaching. I even got to have a deaf student one time, which was great, except I didn't know-- I used to know or still know American sign language, but when I learned, there weren't any computer-related signs. It was actually a weird barrier that I hadn't thought about. We're like, "Okay, I can sign as I'm talking," but then I'm like, "Wait, do I have to spell all this stuff out every single time? I have no idea." That was cool. Then I started just doing HTML for a company called Cybergirl, which is not a porn site. I always have to clarify that. Not that there's anything wrong with porn, but it was not, in fact, a porn site. It was an online women's community. Matt: Cool. Snipe: They weren't really super profitable in the community itself, so they had a separate part that did websites for clients. I was put on to work mostly with their clients. They had stuff written in ASP, ColdFusion. Because the people who had designed it weren't there anymore, I basically had to learn all of these languages. Also, we only had a part time sysadmin, so when we'd hire someone new, I'm like, "I guess I'm creating email accounts for people now." I became a stand-in for a lot of different roles. Got to play with a lot of different languages, some of which I liked vastly better than others. ColdFusion? Really? [laughs] Matt: ASP wasn't that bad. There was worse things than classic ASP. Snipe: Yes, there are. That is a thing that could be said. That is an opinion one might have. [laughter] Matt: Trying to keep a positive spin on it. Snipe: I would say that all of these languages, the ones that are still around, have come a very long way since then, including PHP. Matt: Yes, yes. .NET is not a classic ASP. PHP 5, whatever. PHP 7 is no PHP 3, for sure. Snipe: Certainly. Matt: Were you using PHP at that point already, then? Was that one your-- Snipe: Yes. That was one I was-- Because I'd already done some Perl stuff, and it just wasn't that hard. One of our clients had a website, I think it was The Bone Marrow Foundation, had their website in PHP. That forced me to do a bit more legwork on it. That was the beginnings, the very beginnings. Matt: At that point, we're probably talking about single-page PHP files for each page. At the top, you've got a common.inc that you're doing your database connections. Then below that, it's just a template, right? Okay. Snipe: Functions.inc and usually some sort of PHTML. [laughs] Matt: God, PHTML, yes. Okay, all right. Snipe: I told you, I am an old, old lady. Matt: Honestly, we worked on a site that still used PHTML and things like four or five years ago. I was like, "I didn't even know that PHP parser is still allowed for this." Apparently, some of these things still stick around. Snipe: Whatever you set as your acceptable file formats, it'll parse. Matt: Yes, you can make it happen. Snipe: I can have a .dot site file extension if I wanted to. Matt: I like that idea now. Jeez. When was the transition? What were the steps between there and ending up where you are now? Are we still many steps behind, or did you get out on your own pretty quickly after that? Snipe: I was doing some contract work. Thanks to a friend that I'd met through IRC. I was doing some contract work for a company out in San Diego. They were an ad agency. This is the beginning of the days when marketing companies were trying to own digital, and they were trying to build up their digital departments. They moved me out there because they're like, "You're amazing, so come on out here and build up our team." I did. I built up their team. We had some really cool clients. We had San Diego Zoo, San Diego Padres, California Avocado Commission. At that time, I didn't like avocados. I was giving away free avocados that I did not like. Matt: [chuckles] Oh, no. That's so good. Snipe: I hate myself now for knowing how many avocados I could have had. [laughs] I got to build lots of custom web apps, all the database-y stuff. That was really fun. I left there, started my own web design company for lack of a better term, where I was basically using PHP, but also pretending like I knew how to design anything at all. Sorry, hang on. Incoming call. Building my own custom applications for people. None of it is really that fancy, but whatever. That was fun. Then I broke my foot. This is before the ACA, and so I had no insurance. Thousands of dollars and a spiral fracture later, I'm like, "Maybe I should get a real job." [laughter] Snipe: I started to work for the San Diego Blood Bank, which was a great gig. It's probably my favorite job. The pay wasn't that great, but my coworkers were great. Your hours were your hours. There was no overtime. If you had to work overtime, you got paid double time and a half, something like that. It was insane. Matt: Especially compared to the ad agency world, which is basically the exact opposite. Snipe: Yes. Yes. There's no amount of blood you can show to prove that you're loyal to that particular market. I ended up moving back to New York and ended up working for the Village Voice for a little while. Matt: Really? That's cool. Snipe: Yes, that was cool. Unfortunately, they had already been bought out by Newtimes, and so they were not the Village Voice that I grew up with, the one that warmed the liberal cockles of my heart. It was actually a crap place to work, to be honest. People were getting fired all the time. There was this one guy, he used to hang out in the archives room with an X-Acto blade and a piece of paper and would just cut at the piece of paper. He was actually scary. Everyone was afraid of him, because that's office shooter kind of crazy. Matt: Exactly, exactly. Snipe: I left there, finally, and worked for another ad agency. That's the one that I was working at when I finally started to work with Snipe-IT. Finally started to make Snipe-IT. For a while, while I was in California, the nice thing about running your own gig back then, because it was like a one-man shop, so I didn't have people that I had to worry about. I got a chance to work with tigers for about a year. It was just exhausting. That was around the time when I was writing my book, too. Working with tigers, commuting four hours a day, coming home stinking like raw chicken and tiger pee. Then working on my book, and then whatever I can possibly eke out for customers. It was pretty chaotic and definitely exhausting, but they were good times. Matt: I don't want to preach too far on this, but I feel like the more of our story that takes us around different aspects of life and different experiences, the more we bring to the thing we're in right now. That's one of the reasons I keep pushing on people having histories before they came to tech or diverse histories in tech. It's not to say that someone who just graduated from college and instantly got a job as a developer is therefore now incomplete, but I think that a lot of what makes a lot of people interesting is what they bring outside. That's true for anybody, right? What makes you different from the people around you makes you different, and makes you interesting, and it makes you have a perspective to be able to bring that the people around you don't. It sounds like you have quite a few of those, at least as you enter into the communities that I'm asking you from the perspective of whether PHP, or Laravel, or anything like that. I don't know where I'm going with that, but anyway. Snipe: [laughs] Matt: That's very interesting to hear. Snipe: I always say I sound really interesting on paper. I'm not really that interesting to talk to, but when you actually look at all the crap I've done, it's like, "Wow. That's kind of a lot." Matt: Right. That is a lot going on. Snipe: It's all weird. Weird stuff. Matt: If I remember right, the book that you wrote was a Wrox PHP book, right? Snipe: Yes, yes. You can still get it on Amazon, but it costs more to ship. Matt: Really? I got to-- Snipe: Actually, I'm not sure. It may just be eBay. The last time I checked, it was selling for $2.95 and costs like $80 to ship. [laughs] Matt: Professional PHP4 Web Development Solutions. Snipe: Yes. Matt: I don't see a Mohawk. I don't know which one's you. Snipe: No, no. Matt: [laughs] Snipe: Yes, I know. Gosh, it's a mystery of the ages, isn't it? [laughs] Matt: All right. Yes. $22.99. Wow. What was your experience like writing a book? Would you do it again? Snipe: Possibly, but I would need a bit more written assurances up front about how-- This is a co-authored book. Basically, we were not given communication information with each other. We were writing these chapters completely independently and it sucked. I offered to set up a bulletin board just so we could-- For some reason, they didn't want us talking to each other or something. I don't know, but I was like, "Because I don't know where this chapter is going to fall, I want to make sure that I'm not rehashing a thing that's already been discussed, or touching on something that needs more information." They never facilitated that. They actually pushed back against it. It was really frustrating. You're literally writing chapters in a vacuum that then have to be cohesive when you string them all together. I would need to know if it was going to be a co-authorship. I would need to know that this will truly be collaborative. Because the way it looks on the cover, it looks like we're all hanging out. No, I don't think I've ever spoken to those people ever. [laughs] Matt: Wow. Jeez. Snipe: It's really weird. It's really weird. I did not like that. I thought that was really just not a way to give the best experience to the reader. If I was going to collaborate, I would have to make sure that there was something like that. I've toyed with writing a couple of books over the last few years. It is also a bit of a time suck. Matt: Yes, it is. My perception, what I've told people in the past is that people often ask me, "Should I write a book with a traditional publisher like you did?" Because mine was with O'Reilly. "Or should I self-publish like a lot of the people in our community have?" My general perception has been, if you want to make money, self-publish. Snipe: Definitely. Matt: If you want reach that's outside of your current ability, then consider a traditional publisher. You've got quite a bit of reach and I wonder whether it's-- Snipe: This is like 2003, though. Matt: I don't mean for them, but I mean now. If you're going at it now. It seems like there'll probably be less of a reason for you to do a traditional publisher at this point. Snipe: I don't know, though. I still kind of O'Reilly. Matt: You still like it? Snipe: Being a published O'Reilly author, I still toy with that, honestly. Matt: I tell people I got a degree in secondary English education, basically. This O'Reilly book is my proof that I'm actually a real programmer. Snipe: [laughs] You know what? Honestly, that was really important to me back then. Snipe: Me too, really. Matt: I don't know where things would have gone, I don't know if I would have-- I probably would have stuck with it because I really, really liked it. I think that gave me a bit of confidence that I really needed. Proof, again, because I didn't graduate college. I nearly didn't graduate high school because of the programming class. [laughs] It was a way for me to say not just to the rest of the world, but to myself, like, "Hey, I actually know what I'm talking about." Matt: You can't underappreciate just how significant that is. I love that you said it. It's not just to everybody else, it's to you, too. Snipe: More than anyone else, to myself, honestly. I don't care what you guys think. [laughs] Matt: I spent several thousand hours writing a book with a major publisher so that I can overcome impostor syndrome. It's totally worth it. [laughter] Snipe: I still have it. That's a thing, I have it. Matt: I still have it, but maybe a little less. Snipe: At least if someone actually pushes the impostor syndrome too far, I'll be like, "I wrote a book. What have you done?" Matt: Exactly. Snipe: Meanwhile, I go off and rock in the corner as if, "Oh, my God. I don't deserve to be here. I don't deserve to be here." Matt: Exactly. It certainly doesn't make it go away, but maybe it's a tool in our arsenal to battle it. Snipe: That's a very good way to describe it. Matt: I like it. Snipe: I would need that to be a bit more of a tighter process. Matt: Well, if you decide to write with O'Reilly, I know some people. Just give me a call. Snipe: [laughs] I also know some people in O'Reilly. Matt: I was just going to say I'm pretty sure you don't need me for any of that kind of stuff. I just had to say it to try and seem like I actually matter, so this works. Snipe: Of course, you matter. Matt: I matter. Snipe: I got up early for you, Matt. I got up early for you. Matt: That's true. Snipe: You don't have any idea. Matt: That's true, this is quite early your time. I appreciate it. Snipe: [laughs] Matt: I'm trying to not talk forever. I'm trying to move us on even though I'm just my usual caveats, everyone take a drink. You eventually started Snipe-IT. I think we skipped a couple of things. We were talking about you becoming the CTO of the ad agency and being in a place where you needed to manage that kind of stuff. You started Snipe-IT. You now have a remote team. Could you tell me a little about the makeup of your team, and what it's like running a remote team, and the pros and cons you've experienced, and anything else that you would want to share about what that experience is like for you? Snipe: Well, I'm really lucky, first of all, because although our team is remote, we're all also local. We can actually see each other, we'll go out and have beers when we hit a major milestone. We'll go out and have some champagne and celebrate that we do get to see each other's faces. Also, we were friends first, so that helps. It's totally, totally different. If you're looking for advice on how to run a real remote team, that I can't help you with. I can't tell you how to manage your friends through Slack, though. [laughs] Matt: Basically, you and a bunch of friends live like an hour driving distance to each other or whatever and choose to work from home? Snipe: More like seven minutes. [laughs] Matt: Jeez. Snipe: Yes, yes. Matt: Okay, so this is really just like, "We just don't feel like going to an office," kind of vibe. Snipe: It's pants, it's pants. I'm not putting on pants. I've worked too hard in my career to have to put on pants anymore. There is a reason this isn't a video call, Matt. Seriously. [laughter] Matt: I wish that this was one of the podcasts-- Snipe: I think I just made Matt blush, by the way. Matt: I wish this was one of the podcasts where they name each episode, because that would have been the name right there for this episode. I might have to, just for this one, just give it a name just for that. Okay. I hear you. I get it. Snipe: The thing is I hadn't actually planned on hiring when I did. The reality is I should have, because I was really buckling under the helpdesk. That customer support load was a lot. It was causing me a great deal of anxiety. Looking back at it now, it was really untenable. Of course, I think that I'm 10 feet tall and bulletproof, so I'm like, "I got this. I got this." Meanwhile, it's four o'clock in the morning and I can't even see straight anymore. I ended up having to hire someone for a personal reason. She's actually worked out great. She's an absolute rock star on the helpdesk. She's never worked a helpdesk before, and she owns it. It's actually really, really great. Once I'd hired her, I think-- The onboarding takes a little bit. Especially, literally never worked a helpdesk before, so it's not just onboarding with my company, it's like onboarding the entire concept. As soon as she got her footing, she just completely handled it. It was really great. The next hire was a developer/sysadmin that I've known for a while. He is just fantastic. He's actually the harder one because he, I think, requires a little bit more structure, and a little bit more face time. I need to be better. I do. I need to be better about working with that because in my head, I'm still managing this the way that I want to be managed. I forget that that's actually not my job anymore. Matt: People are different. Snipe: Yes, people are different. Also, not everybody wants what I want. Frankly, it doesn't matter what I want. Ultimately, that's no longer a luxury that I have, caring more about how I want things to go for myself. That priority has shifted, and so I'm having to painfully learn [chuckles] that lesson. Not painfully. I love my entire team. They're absolutely amazing. I'm super, super grateful for them every day that goes by. Every time one of them takes vacation, we all hold on to our desks. We're like, "Okay, we can get through this, we can get through this." It's a learning curve, certainly. I've run my own small business, I've run dev teams. This is a different thing though, because the reason why I wanted to make this a company instead of just running this as a side project is because I've worked for tons of shitty companies. I want to build the company that I wish I'd worked for. Matt: I'm so sorry for doing this, but I was doing that thing where you're hearing somebody talking and waiting for your chance to talk. I literally was about to say Dan and I, when we started Tighten, the first thing we said was, "We want to build the company we want to work for." You just said and I'm like, "Exactly." That introduces the problem you're talking about, which is you just assume everybody wants the same things you want. It also means nobody else gets to force you to put people through things that you wouldn't want to be put through. It's an incredible freedom if you can make it profitable. Snipe: Yes. Absolutely. Getting to institute stuff that I think is really worker-friendly. We all make our own hours. We have office hours so that when Victoria's handling the helpdesk, she's got access to the text that she needs during a certain amount of time. In general, she's got a kid. We have to have that flexibility, so that she-- Honestly, she just lets us know that she's going to pick up her kid. It's like, "Okay, cool. See you back in half an hour or whatever." Vacation, she had not had a real vacation in probably 10 or 15 years. Last year, we were like, "You are taking vacation." She kept checking into Slack. I'm like, "Girl, I will actually revoke your credentials." Matt: [laughs] Exactly. Snipe: Do not play with me. Matt: I love it. Snipe: This year, I've decided that there's two weeks basically mandatory vacation, and we're going to put $3,000 towards each person's vacation funds- Matt: That's cool. Snipe: -so that they can actually go and do something awesome, and relaxing, and not stress about money while they're there, and just get to go and actually enjoy things, and come back refreshed and ready to work. It's pretty cool being able to come up with stuff like this and really like, "What would I have needed?" Because when I was working at the ad agencies especially, I would accrue my PTO. Honestly, that's why Snipe-IT existed. It was because I had two and a half weeks, three weeks of PTO that was not going to roll over. They made me take vacation in November. They wouldn't let me do it in December. They made me do it in November, and I was like, "Yes, three weeks of just relaxing, playing video games." That didn't work. I accidentally the product. [laughs] Now, I accidentally the business. Matt: That's awesome. One of the things I often talk about as an entrepreneur, as a business owner is something that I think people are scared of talking about, which is power. Because being a business owner means you get to hire, you get to figure out how money is spent, you get to figure out what pressures are and are not put in the people you work with. I call that power, but I think power doesn't have to be a scary word because, really, what matters is what you do with the power. When we hear power as a negative thing, it is usually because the people on power are benefiting themselves. I think that something is really beautiful, and wonderful, and we need more of in the world is when we can see power as a positive thing, because people get power and then use it for the benefit of other people. I just want to applaud and affirm what you're doing, because you just described that. It's like, "I got power, and the first thing I did was work to make other people's lives better understanding what the situation that they were in was." I love hearing that. I'm really glad that we got to talk about this today. Snipe: Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to coming up with more stuff like that. Matt: I love it. Snipe: It's super important to me. Our customers are incredibly important to us, obviously, but my staff is as important. You can't have one without the other either direction. Matt: In the end, they're just both people who you work with. The hope is that you're able to make both groups of people really have lives that are better because they had a chance to interact with you. Snipe: Yes, absolutely. Matt: Okay. We are almost out of time. I asked people at Tighten if they had any questions for you. They gave me a million, and I haven't gotten any of them. They're all going to be mad at me, so I'm trying to look at the one that I could pull up that won't turn into a 30-minute long conversation. Snipe: I'm Italian. There is literally nothing you can talk to me about that won't turn into a 30-minute conversation. [laughs] Matt: All right. I'll literally go with the question that has the least words in it and see if that gets us anywhere. Coffee or tea? Snipe: Red Bull. Matt: There you go. See how short that was? All right. Snipe: This podcast is sponsored by Red Bull. [laughter] Matt: It's so funny that it's been the thing at Tighten for the longest time, where those of us who started the company and the first hires were primarily coffee people. There's one tea holdout, but over time, the tea contingent has grown. Just within the last nine months, we hired two people who are Red Bull addicts. All of a sudden, we're shopping for the company on-site and they're like, "Orange Red Bull, no sugar, energy, blah, blah, blah." I'm like, I have a course in Red Bull flavors. Anyway, I still think it's pretty gross, but I did try some of them. Snipe: It's disgusting. No, it is utterly vile. It is really, really gross. [laughter] Matt: I don't get it. Please pitch me on why I would drink red Bull instead of coffee then. Snipe: No. If you don't drink Red Bull, then there will be more for me. First of all, I'm not going to pitch that. Matt: World's dwindling storage of Red Bull. Snipe: Obviously, we buy our stores out of local Red Bull, it's ridiculous. We have a main store, and then we have a failover store. Listen, you don't drink it because it tastes good. It tastes like dog ass, but it wakes you up. It keeps you awake. It feels the same role that coffee does, and frankly, I don't think that coffee tastes that good. Matt: Okay. Fair enough. Snipe: I can ask the same question to you. Matt: Right. For you, it's a combination. You don't like the flavor of either, but one of them you can buy in bulk and throw in the fridge? Snipe: Yes, yes. Matt: Got it. I get that. I love the flavor of coffee, but I'm like a geek. I have all the equipment, and all that kind of stuff. Snipe: Of course, you do. [laughter] Matt: Am I predictable? I am predictable. Okay. Snipe: I will neither confirm nor deny. My lawyer has advised me. [laughs] Matt: Not to make a statement on this particular-- I have one more and I'm praying that I can make it short, but I probably won't. You are a member of the Laravel community. You use Laravel. You share things every once in a while, but for someone who is such a big name, who's a member of the Laravel community, much of your popularity is not within the Laravel community. You're not popular because you're speaking at Laracon, you're not creating Laravel packages that all the people are consuming. It's this interesting thing where you're a very well-known person who uses Laravel and is a member of the Laravel community but is not necessarily gaining all that fame within Laravel space. It's an interesting overlap. As someone who does have exposure to lots of the tech communities, you're in the InfoSec world, you've been in PHP for a while, but you're also solidly Laravel. Do you have any perspectives on either, maybe the differences between InfoSec and PHP, differences between InfoSec and Laravel, and/or is there anything that you would say to the Laravel community, or things you'd either applaud or hope to see grow? Is there anything you just want to say about the way Laravel compares, or connects, or overlaps, or whatever with the rest of the world that you're in? Snipe It's always an ongoing joke in the InfoSec community. PHP developers are pretty much the easiest punching bag in the InfoSec community. Matt: And everywhere else. Snipe: In fact, I think just yesterday, I submitted an eye-rolling gift in relation to someone at InfoSec, bagging on PHP developers. I get it. When the language first came out, it was really easy to learn. You didn't need to have any knowledge of programming, or discipline, or best practices. There were no best practices for quite some time in PHP. I totally get that. The thing is that that's not really the world that we live in anymore. It's actually hard to write a PHP application without using a framework these days. Because the frameworks are so much better and it's so much faster, that for me, I'm pretty sure I could still write a PHP application without a framework, but why the hell would? If I ever have to write another gddmn login auth routine, I'll kill myself. I will actually kill myself. Comparing InfoSec to PHP or Laravel is like comparing apples to orangutans. They're entirely different animals and there is a little bit of overlap, but typically not. In general, PHP has a bad reputation in InfoSec. In fact, I will tell you a very brief story about how I got into InfoSec. This one's always a fun one. I used to run a nonprofit organization when I moved to California the first time. It was basically like Megan's Law for animal abusers. Criminal animal abuse. I would pull in data, break it down statistically based on a couple of different pointers like domestic violence connection, blah blah blah blah blah, and basically run statistics on that stuff. This was going back a very, very long time when nobody really knew or gave a crap at all about AppSec. At one point, my website got hacked. The organization's website got hacked. I am literally on my way to speak at a conference in Florida, an animal welfare conference. I'm checking in. I'm like, "Hi, I'm Alison Gionatto. I'm a speaker." She goes, "You're petabuse.com. That's great. I'm so sorry to hear about what happened." I'm like, "I've been on a plane for a couple of hours." I'm like, "Wait, what?" [chuckles] I run to my hotel room, and somebody has defaced the website with an animated GIF, and a song playing in the background which was basically a clip from Meetspin, and they linked to Meatspin. If any of your listeners don't know what Meatspin is- Matt: I don't. Snipe: -please do not Google that. You can google it, but have safe search on. Matt: Is it like Goatse kind of stuff? Snipe: Yes. "You spin me right round, baby, right round" playing in the background on autoloop. To this day, when I hear that song, I shiver a little bit. Matt: Trigger, yes. Snipe: Exactly. I ended up actually talking to this guy who thought that we were a much bigger organization than we were. He was trying to extort money, of course. I was like, "Dude, you have you have no idea. We get like $800 in donations every month. You are barking up the wrong tree." He's like, "I thought you were bigger. I'm sorry, but it is what it is." I toyed with him long enough to figure out what he had done. The thing is, this is on a Cobalt RaQ server. First of all, we're going back. Second of all, those are not exactly going for their security, but it was what I could afford. Honestly, it's what I could afford. I figured it out, I locked him out. I did leave him one final kind of F you text. [laughter] Snipe: Just so that he knew. That was how I got into this in the first place was basically a horrific, horrific internet meme and the defacement of my organization's website. Again, this is 2004, 2005. Application security became really important to me, and that's why I'm here. [chuckles] That's why I go to DEF CON. That's why I speak about application security and security in general. To get back to your original question, there isn't really an overlap. There is this disdainful relationship, for the most part, coming from both directions because InfoSec people don't typically treat programmers in general very well, but especially not PHP developers. PHP developers are tired of getting shit on, and so they don't necessarily treat-- It becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling-- Matt: Impostor, yes. Exactly. Snipe: Honestly, it's all just a bunch of dumbass egos and it's stupid. If we would just talk to each other a little bit more, we'd probably be a little better off. Matt: Come on, somebody. You'll be surprised to hear that I could talk about InfoSec and PHP for an hour, but we're out of time. I don't know if I'm going to have you back sometime or I don't know what, but this's been amazing. I really appreciate you spending some time with me. Before we cut off for the day and I cry because of all the topics I'm not going to cover, is there anything you wanted to talk about? Anything you want to plug, anything you want to cover, anything you want to say to the people that we haven't got to cover today? Snipe: Nothing that really comes to mind. I am still really passionate about AppSec. If you're using a framework and you're not utilizing all of the security stuff that's built in already, specifically Laravel is really good with that. I've had write some Middleware to add some additional CSP headers and things like that. If you're already paying the price, the overhead of using a framework, then freaking use it. Actually use all of the bits that are good, not just the bits that you don't feel like writing. Laravel makes it really hard to avoid the CSRF tokens. You'll actually have to go out of your way to disable those. I like that about Laravel. I like that it's opinionated. I like that it doesn't want you to screw this up. That said, any developer left to their own devices sufficiently motivated will still screw it up. Matt: Will screw something up, yes. Snipe: Yes, Exactly. Frameworks like Laravel, I think once that are headed in the right direction, so your default login already uses bcrypt to hash the password. You would, again, have to go out of your way to write something that would store something in cleartext or MD5. I think it's a step in the right direction. Use your frameworks, learn what their built-in security functionality is, and use them. Matt: Use it. [laughs] Snipe: One of the packages I'm actually writing for Laravel right now is an XSS package which will basically walk through your schema, and will try and inject rows of XSS stuff in there so that when you reload the app and if you got to any kind of functional testing or acceptance testing setup, you'll be able to see very quickly what you've forgotten to escape. Matt: I love it. Snipe: For a normal Laravel app, that's actually hard to do because the double braces will escape everything. For example, if you're using data from an API, maybe you're not cleaning it as well or whatever. That's one of the packages that I actually am working on. Matt: That's great. Also, if you're using JavaScript, it's really common for people to not escape it, and so that all of a sudden, they forget to clean it. Snipe: Exactly. I wanted one quick way to basically just check and see how boned I was. That'll be fun. Matt: Yes. Does it have a name yet that we can watch for or would you just link it once you have it? Snipe: Well, the only name-- You know how the mocking data packages called Faker? You can imagine what I'm considering calling this that I probably won't call it? [laughs] Matt: Probably won't, but now we can all remember it that way? Yes. Snipe: No promises. Absolutely no promises is all I'm saying. [laughs] Matt: Assuming it's safe for work, I will link the name in the show notes later. If not, you could just go-- [crosstalk] [laughter] Snipe: Again, no promises. Matt: I like it. Okay. You all have taken enough drinks, so I won't say my usual ending for you to drink too. Snipe, Alison, thank you so much. Thank you for the ways you have spoken up for a lot of things that really matter both in this call and our community as a whole. Thank you for hopefully helping me but also our entire community get better going forward, but also the things you brought to us in the past in terms of application security. I don't know why I didn't say this earlier, but Mr. Rogers is maybe one of my top heroes of all time. That was what was going through my mind when you were talking about running your company. Thank you for being that force both for running companies that way and taking care of people, and then, of course, by proxy for just the people who you're working with. The more people that are out there doing that, I think the better it is for all of us. This has been ridiculously fun. If anyone wants to follow you on Twitter, what's your Twitter handle and what are other things they should check out? That URL for Snipe-IT? I will put all of these in the show notes, but I just wanted you to get a chance to say them all at the end. Snipe: My Twitter handle is @snipeyhead, because @snipe was taken. I'm still pissed at that guy. [laughter] Snipe: The URL for Snipe-IT is snipeitapp.com. Not very creative. All of our issues are on GitHub. Your pool of requests are welcome. [laughter] Snipe: As always. Matt: Nice. Snipe: It is free. If it helps you solve some of your problems at your organization, we would love for you to try it out. If you'd like to give us money, that's awesome too. Ultimately, the more people who are using it, the better. Matt: Nice. Okay. Well, thank you so much for your time. Everyone, check out the show notes as always. We'll see you again in a couple of weeks with a special episode. I'll tell you more what it is when that one happens. See you. Snipe: [chuckles] Thank you so much, Matt.

I'm excited to release this interview with Jason Calacanis during the launch of his new book, Angel: How to Invest in Technology Startups-Timeless Advice from an Angel Investor Who Turned $100,000 into $100,000,000. I've been a super fan of Jason since coming across his show This week in Startups when he produced it on set with black curtain backdrops and large wooden dining room tables. A lot of people give GaryVee credit for the foresight of thinking like a media company — but Jason got to it first. Behind the bravado is a kid from Brooklyn that worked his tail off to get to where he's at, challenged with lessons of success & failure weaved into the fabric of his story. Today, Jason leads Inside.com with the same burning passion to take on the big platforms as he did with his first startup, Silicon Alley Reporter.  Sit back and enjoy this episode with Jason, as he walks us through the mind of an angel investor and how to start thinking scale in your small software business. Listen the episode Matt Report - A WordPress podcast for digital business owners How to find an angel investor for small startups w/ Jason Calacanis Play Episode Pause Episode Mute/Unmute Episode Rewind 10 Seconds 1x Fast Forward 30 seconds 00:00 / 00:44:23 Subscribe Share RSS Feed Share Link Embed Download file | Play in new window | Duration: 00:44:23 Interview transcript Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Matt Report season five. We're winding down season five. In fact, folks who were listening, now you should have heard the last episode of season five. But I get a bonus episode with one of my favorite people on the internet, Jason Calacanis. Jason, welcome to the program. Jason C.: Hey, thanks for having me. Matt: Creator of Weblogs, Inc sold to AOL. Early investors in Uber, Thumbtack, created a company called Mahalo and fought Google at every turn and corner. Created another company that I originally found you through is This Week In, the sort of all the YouTube stuff and live video stuff you were doing. Now you're running Inside.com, news and entertainment delivered via email. I am a huge fan of that as well. You run LAUNCH Incubator and events, and now you've written the book, the book of angels as it were. It's angels- Jason C.: Yes, of angels. I like that. Matt: Angel: How to Invest in Technology Startups—Timeless Advice from an Angel Investor Who Turned 100 grand into 100 million buckaroos. Jason, welcome to the program again. Did I miss anything? Jason C.: It's- Matt: I probably did. Jason C.: Probably. Well yeah, it's one of the great things about history is like people only remember the victories if you have them. Then they forget all the losses. But you brought up Mahalo, so that was great, my PTSD started triggering. Mahalo, we basically pivoted into Inside.com, so the story ended up well. But we're working like dogs, get a return for those Mahalo investors. I never give up. It's one of my either charming or stupid qualities depending on the situation that I never give up. Matt: Obviously, want to talk about the book. For me, I'm not a super heavy book reader. I got it, I got an early copy. I did a little Jason Calacanis of my own, I just contacted your publishers. I sort of worked my way in through the backdoor and I said, “Hey, I'd love to talk to this guy.” Jason C.: Hustle. Matt: I definitely want to talk about the book, but real quick. This Week In network, I mean god, you had This Week In Web Design, of course This Week In Startups. You had I think This Week In Movies as well. Do you think that you were just so early, like the technology wasn't there? Jason C.: Yeah, for sure. What we did was we tried to do a network of shows seven years ago. It was a little experiment. Me and a couple of my friends put 100k in each. We got to the point where it was making some money and there were two breakout shows, Kevin Pollak's Chat Show and This Week In Startups. All the other shows, we were trying to groom talent. We had people like Mark Suster doing This Week In Venture Capital. Then we had other people doing This Week In Movies. We did a Mad Men recap show long before things like Talking Dead. We kinda pioneered that space of doing a show right after. We had a lot of, I would say, early signs of success. Maybe we should've stuck with it. But I came to this great realization, which was the more important, the more powerful, the more networks, the more credible the hosts, like Kevin Pollak, Mark Suster, myself, the greater the chance of success. If it was an emerging host, it probably had very little chance of success. We were able to get an unlimited supply of emerging talent to host a podcast. But none of them were breaking out. It probably would've taken us three or four years of trying to get them to break out. We had somebody named Dave Pensado doing Pensado's Place and he was awesome too. But all those people had in common that they didn't really need us because it's so easy to create a podcast that if you're a rich powerful person, or not even rich. If you just have 500 to let's say $2,000 to produce an episode, you can just do it yourself and not have a boss, not be part of a network. We kept having people who would just call in rich, like Mark Suster's like, “Yeah, I can't do it for the next year. I gotta raise a fund. I got things to do.” I just had this realization that all the great podcasters would be independent and I was right. If you look, Leo Laporte stayed independent, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla. All these people have become independent, let's call it $1 million to $10 million enterprises. I think probably Leo and Joe Rogan are above 5 million. They have this like, call it $2 to $5 million space like This Week In Startups, and maybe Sam Harris, and maybe Adam Carolla. In other words, it's enough money for those people to love doing it and not to need to have anybody as their boss. So all those people who are trying to making podcasting networks have had a hard go of it. Even Leo, who's got a lot of great shows, but he's had a hard time keeping talent on the network because they go have a life event. They get married. They go have kids and want to do something else. It's just hard to be a manager of talent like that. I mean Sirius XM is doing a good job of it, but they have this like huge bankroll. So I think podcasting is this very unique space because you don't need somebody. If you go down that list, all these like podcasting companies, they don't really … Malcolm Gladwell doesn't need the podcasting company in other words. He can just do it himself. If he does it with a podcasting company, it's probably because they're overpaying him. Matt: These shows, these either networks or these individual shows that somebody's running, they become massive platforms and catalysts to sell all their either goods and services or maybe even in your world, you get the advertising, you do a million bucks a year. You pay your staff, whatever. But it's also it connects you with so many people at the same time. It makes you become the [crosstalk 00:05:39]- Jason C.: My view on podcasting when I heard about it from Dave Winer and the pod father, Adam Curry when they were teaching me about it. I was like okay, I'm just gonna record two conversations from lunches I had in a week, and then all of a sudden it turned into we're about to hit 800 episodes for This Week in Startups. It just turned out to be a networking thing for me. Then all of a sudden, it started making money and getting 150,000 downloads in episodes. So it's a pretty big audience now and it's a great way for me to find founders to invest in. Matt: If people are listening to that and they're like, “All right, that's it. I'm gonna go start my podcast.” Folks, it's still a slog. It's still some hard work. It doesn't come that easy. I know. I'm only at maybe 300 episodes and man, some days it can be super draining to keep this stuff going. Let's just talk about the book. The structure of this book, for a dullard like myself who doesn't like to read, it is … I mean you say in sort of the winding chapters that this is the playbook. This is your decade plus of experiences sort of all put into this one book. I love the framework was I mean was that your idea? Or when you get to a publisher, they say, “Look, that's a complicated topic. We need to sort of piecemeal this for people reading it.” It's not all this hoopla and sort of Zen like stuff. This is the real deal. Jason C.: Yeah. The pitch was interesting. I've had a very famous book agent for a decade. His name is John Brockman. He does something called Edge.org and he's got Daniel Dennett, Jared Diamond, Sam Harris, had Marvin Minsky, just all the greatest authors that are out there, and Brian Greene, and then me. I would always get these like Blogging for Dummies, Podcasting for Dummies. Search engines, SEO for Dummies. They just wanted me to be the dummy author and it was always like chintzy. It was a couple of stories about my angel investing. People started to realize, “Oh, he's hit a unicorn. Oh, he hit a second unicorn. Oh, he hit three unicorns.” When that started to get released, the value of the portfolio started to get released and Wall Street Journal did a story on it, people were pinging my agent saying, “Hey, is he gonna write a book?” I just thought to myself everybody I meet, like the stupider or more inexperienced they are, the greater the chance they've written a book. So like people who have no life experience and nothing to share, they write books in order to become subject matter efforts. I just thought isn't that backwards? Like, shouldn't the books go to the subject matter experts? I just thought what am I a subject matter expert on? Like, I was a good entrepreneur. I'm not like an elite great entrepreneur, like folks I've invested in who have done much better than me. I was a good entrepreneur. But angel investing is something I have a lot of credibility on since I've done 150 investments now and now six of them have become unicorns. Another company today announced that they raised over a billion dollars making medal 3D printers called Desktop Metal, which I was an investor on the first round to fund it. Matt: Nice. Jason C.: I was like this is something I could do. Then I looked at it and I said how do you frame that? I could make something for angels, but really the book is about how wealth is created in the 21st century as opposed to how wealth was created in the 20th century. That's really what I'm going for and if you read the book, you realize it's not just for angel investors. It's for anybody who wants to know how many is gonna be made in the next century. Money and wealth is not created by real estate and being rich dad, poor dad, secret millionaire on the block, art of the deal. You're not gonna become rich through some deal making or real estate in all likelihood. That dream is over. That was a really good model when the white collar boom was happening. You could get a white collar job, marry somebody with a white collar job, bring peanut butter and jelly to lunch, and then just don't go out to dinner, take staycations. Matt: Right. Save, save, save. Jason C.: Save, save, save. Pay down your house. But at that time, when our parents bought their houses, my parents bought their brownstone in Brooklyn for I think $45,000. My mom was making as a nurse 40,000 and my dad was probably making 30,000 as a bartender. Their house was one less than one times their yearly income. Now if you live in New York, a brownstone's a million dollars, and most people are making, let's say they were, forget about blue collar, just white collar people. They're probably making 100 to 150k each, so let's just call it best case scenario, 300,000 a year. A brownstone in Brooklyn's a million dollars or $2 million depending on where in Brooklyn, so it's five times, seven times the household income. Forget about Manhattan or other places. In San Francisco, it's an even further joke. So the idea that you would have these two white collar people suffer and then hit this amazing real estate thing, then buy a second home, or leverage it into a second home, is kinda laughable. Also, people are graduating with what? At the same time, people's debt is growing, so there's educational debt. People coming out of school with 50, 150k each, so they have household debt of 150,000. Then what happens? Boom, you had  the $150,000 in debt, you're not paying for your mortgage until you're 35. In this book, I explain hey, if you can get on cap tables of high growth companies, specifically in Silicon Valley, because the hit rate there is so much better and the numbers are just, add a zero or two from any other market in terms of the scale of those companies, you could really hit a home run and move from poor to rich, from middle class to rich, from rich to ultra rich. That's really what I was trying to do there. My hope is that if 100,000 people buy the book, and 5 or 10% of them start angel investing, maybe 1,000 of them have this incredible, or 100 of them have this incredible result. If the other ones just are plus or minus 50% of their money, that's a fine outcome too. Angel investing is something that's becoming something that a lot more people can do. Matt: Yeah and I want to talk about that, but I also looked at this book of course for the folks who are listening, the WordPress product companies, hosting companies, people who are doing upwards of maybe a million bucks a year selling WordPress plugins. This is a great book to reverse engineer these frameworks, right? Jason C.: Of course. Matt: How does Jason go to look for founders? Now these founders out there I mean pick up the book just because now you can reverse engineer that and it structures so damn well that you just zero in right on the part where Jason's negotiating or setting up the interviews. I mean it's an amazing tool. Jason C.: Exactly correct. That is a very astute point. There's actually a cheaper in there for founders where I just say like, “If you're a founder and you bought this book to game the system, congratulations. You're smart. You smart mother effers, like I salute you. Then here's what you need to know about what angels are going through and how they make their decisions because they are human beings too who are trying to figure this out.” You're not trying to game them. What you want is to really be in sync. For the people making a million dollars a year, like basically either become angel investors or they could actually read the book and understand hey, this is what venture capitalists and angel investors are looking to do. How do you accelerate a million dollar, that wedge strategy of doing templates, and being a single person who makes a million dollars a year, and one person with a couple freelances makes a million? How do you add a zero to that revenue or two zeros? I think if you read the book, you'll have an idea of how things like that can scale. Matt: A little bit on that point, so a lot of folks who do do this, who are doing the WordPress thing, and they're selling some digital products, a lot of them are developers. They started coding in the basement. They upgraded to coding in the garage. Now they're in a coworking space, coding at the coworking space. They're not sort of the marketing type or the entrepreneurial type in the sense of I want to scale this thing. But what can be said about at least talking to maybe an angel investor? I mean are there some benefits to taking … a lot of these folks are just sort of gun-shy for taking money. Are there some benefits to it that you could sort of peg off for people who might be afraid? Jason C.: Yeah. If you have a cash producing business, let's say it's profitable in throwing off a $250,000 a year salary for you. That's pretty amazing. Consider yourself lucky. You can work from home. You control your schedule. You start bringing investors in, they are gonna be looking, an angel investor is gonna be looking typically for a 5 to 10x return. Not this angel investor. I'm looking for people who can do a 100 for 500. But really, 50 to 100 is probably what professional angels are hoping that some of their companies do. A regular angel might be looking for 5 or 10 times their money in seven years. Venture capitalists are trying to invest millions of dollars and maybe do 10x as well with an outside chance of 100 or 200x. So you know that about them and you are kinda lighting a fuse or hitting a starter pistol when you do take that money. So it's a very astute observation. Your life is gonna change. You're gonna have to send updates to them. They're gonna have questions. They're gonna give you money, but they're also, hopefully if they're connected, gonna give you credibility, and resources, and help you strategize about how to add that zero to your revenue. So that everybody involved, all stakeholders, your customers, your partners, your employees, yourself as the founder and the investors, win. That's what the cap table is all about, the capitalization table. So you have to create a cap table, sell them some shares, give your employees some shares and say, “Hey, we're all gonna go on this journey. The company has a million in revenue. We value out of 5 million. There's 5 million shares in the company. They're all worth a dollar. The investor just put in a half million dollars. They bought 10% of the company. They gave us 500,000. Let's deploy that $500,000 intelligently. We'll hire five sales people and give them $50,000 plus commission and hire two more developers. Now we got seven people cranking.” What the people who are your grinders and your audience, the people who know how to grind out and make a real business that people find value from, they typically have the great product sense and the great customer sense. But they don't have the scale sense, right? Or they don't have it yet. Matt: Right. Jason C.: What they have to do is study what they've learned, study their customers and say, “Hey, maybe the top 5% of our customers or top 10% have a need that we've learned about, that we can double or triple down.” If they looked at it and said, “You know what? We have these three customers out of 1,000 who are financial companies, and they keep asking for this set of features. Let's tell them that we're building that product and let's get them to pay $25,000 a month for that product.” That's what kinda pulling the string as an entrepreneur and learning about a market, that's what I respect about those grinders, the people who get to a million dollars in revenue. I just did my first cannabis investment. I wasn't expecting to do one until maybe California was legal and maybe two years from now when things were a little more sorted. But I found a company that's making a million dollars from advertising, and doing cannabis tourism, and doing cannabis magazines, and cannabis festivals. I was like okay, that's a good starting point. If they know how to make a million dollars from just traditional advertising, and events, and stuff like that, maybe they'll figure out some bigger business, and they have a bigger business in mind. So I love those scrappy entrepreneurs. Matt: Yeah. I see that come up a lot. Like, I see a lot of people who are scrappy, doing a million bucks a year, but then they see these ideas get funded for multi millions of dollars and they haven't made a nickel yet. Meanwhile, these people are making hand over fist, hundreds of thousand dollars in cash every single month. I mean is that attractive when a company's making money or does that signal like this is only as big as you're gonna get? Jason C.: Yeah. Matt: Like, we should maybe not invest in that. Jason C.: An amazing question. For some people, it is a signal, a negative signal. Like, these people think small. But for people who are in the know, like savvy people, they're gonna look at it and go, “That person built what we call a dude business, or a dudette business, which is dude makes a million dollars a year. Dude makes half a million dollars a year.” Those people are so smart. I have a friend, Phil Kaplan, who created a company called DistroKid, and previous he did Effed Company and a couple of other startups. He's really brilliant and he makes these companies like just himself and a bunch of freelancers, and they get to millions of dollars in revenue. If you can be lean like that, you're gonna learn stuff, and then there's a time to figure out, “Okay, I built MailChimp, or SurveyMonkey, or examples of companies built off revenue that all of a sudden started to scale.” In SurveyMonkey's case, they took investment and then I believe in MailChimp's case, they had 400 million in revenue, and they had never taken anybody's money. So both things can work. If you want to work with a group of elite investors, when you come with that million dollars, and explain your vision, and say, “Listen, we made a million dollars. It was quite nice. We can grow this business 20% a year for the next 10 years and we'll make $10 million.” That's awesome. “We want to build a billion dollar company. Here's the billion dollar opportunity and here's why we need $1.5 million for 15% of the company. We're gonna build it from here to hit these goals.” That seems pretty credible to me. If it hasn't grown for five years and it's just slowly growing, and you say, “We're gonna make this accelerate,” you have to have a good story. So is it, “Why hasn't it grown faster?” It might be that you just never had outbound sales. You add an outbound sales team and everything changes. So they would want you to test that theory and probably give you 500k to test it. Matt: Got it. Jason C.: But most people don't take enough risks. Out of that group of people who are making that million dollars a year, half million dollars a year, what they don't realize is they're so concerned to protect the nest egg, and their upper middle class lifestyle, or let's say affluent life style. Maybe not rich, they could stop working, but they kinda have a nice place in life. They don't want to risk it, which I understand. But what you have to realize is if you don't risk it now, there's no chance of outside success. If you go for an outside success and it fails, and you've built a million dollar business before, you're gonna be able to build another million dollar one. It's kinda like there's this kid who climbs Yosemite and other mountains without a rope, Alex Honnold, or whatever his name is. It's just like you watch these videos and you're like, “My god, please don't do that.” I don't recommend people climb mountains without ropes, but if you're climbing the startup mountain and you fall, it gives you more credibility, and you just get to start over at the bottom of the mountain again. You don't die. People have this idea that's if you fail in your startup, you're dead. No, you're more credible, you've learned something, and you get to play. You put another quarter in the machine, you get to play the video game again. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's obviously well said. I want to circle- Jason C.: Take more risk is my advice. Matt: Yeah and on that note, you mentioned something earlier about sort of they understand the scrappiness of creating the product, understanding the customer, and the love of building a business, right? That's why they did it. But they don't understand the scale factor. Is that what you would argue a good angel would come in and say, no pun intended I guess, but come in and say, “Hey look, we're gonna bless you with a … maybe point you in the right direction for an advisor, or building an advisory council,” or something like that? Does a good angel do that for their entrepreneurs or do you try to stay hands off and not really push them in a particular direction? Jason C.: It depends on what the founder wants. If the founder wants me involved, I get involved. If the founder doesn't need my help, I get less involved. I like to get a monthly update from the founder because it creates discipline with them to write the update. It takes them an hour to write the update, share the key metrics of the business, talk about the challenges, talk about the wins, talk about the losses, and how we might be able to help. If you have that discipline where you have your metrics dialed in and you write that update, and you send it to 10 investors, and say your management team, you can have like a really open dialogue. The companies that do that go a lot further because they maybe create a plan. If you have a plan to be successful and you execute the plan, you will be more successful. You might not succeed, but you will definitely be more successful. People who decide, “I'm gonna create a two year plan to grow my business from 1 million in year one to 3 million. In a year or two, I'm gonna go from 3 million to 9.” If they don't succeed at the plan and they hit 2 in 6, they will probably be further along than people without a plan. I'm a big fan of planning, and having people involved, and talking about the strategy, and paying attention to the data and the metrics. The great companies do that. Matt: I think you mentioned on a recent episode of your show that the folks who are shy or shy-ish of saying, “No, I'm gonna not give you that weekly or monthly update,” as sort of an indication to you that they're not taking their job seriously, or they might not be taking your relationship with handing them some cash seriously in that regard. Jason C.: Yeah, for sure. We definitely like to find people who are just serious about the business and want to do the business right. I think if you're gonna take angels, you need to look at, especially if you're in that zone of 500,000 to a million, a simple email to 10 different angels saying, “I have a business called blank. We make money by doing blank for blank. Here's a revenue chart, quarterly, monthly, week, whatever, and here's a link to our product demo.” Like, literally that's what? Less than five sentences. You all of a sudden get this massive … we click on the links, and we go check it out, and then we're gonna take the meeting. Most people write their life story and what they plan on doing, the talkers, the tourists. What I love about your audience is they're not talkers and tourists. They're people who have actually built real businesses and they just maybe haven't built the business that is designed to be a billion dollar business. But if you can build a million dollar business, truth be told, you can build a $10 million business. Now, if you have built the million dollar business, I don't know that means you can build a $100 million one. But if you build a million, you can definitely get to 10. If you can get to 10, you've got a business that's gonna be worth 5 to 20 times that number and you can build a team around you of investors who can tell you what people you need on your team to hit that next milestone. That's the trick. You're bringing these people in, they're invested, and now you have five people working toward your success who have skills that you don't have. Again, why fear the downside risk when there is none? It's not life or death and people have a life or death approach where they just don't take enough risk. I believe, in my heart, people don't take enough risk. Matt: It's funny you say that because I'm a mentor in an accelerator program out here on the East Coast. A lot of these folks coming in, and it's sort of like a sustainable accelerator, so businesses that are gonna help the local community, drive jobs, that kind of thing. Nothing like in the tech sector, although some come through with the tech sector. So many people starting companies now, they feel like it's life or death, right? Some of them are trying to do it because they're jaded from the Shark Tank shows that are out there. They think like, “All I have to do is get to this, and I'm gonna win a million bucks,” right? They think of it like a game show I guess and it's sort of not the case. But also, look, you can get up the next day. You can start another business, get another job, or something like that, and take another swing at it I guess. Jason C.: It's correct. Shark Tank's an amazing show for inspiring people to get involved. It has put in people's mind that that money in some cases is like the reward, that's the prize, when in fact that's the starter pistol as we talked about earlier. That just means okay, now you've deployed it, and those people want you to return. It's an investment, which means they want a return on capital. So yeah, I think it's been great that so many people are inspired to start companies, but finishing is important. Matt: As an investor, this is the inside baseball question for the direct folks in the audience, we're all using WordPress. It's all opensource. Does that scare you as an investor? Do you not touch opensource? Do you know investors that do and don't that might be some guidance for folks listening? Jason C.: It is amazing. Everybody wants to do opensource based startups. They [inaudible 00:25:55] WordPress.org and I've got the name of the other CMS, but the Boston company that now- Matt: Oh, Acquia, Drupal. Jason C.: Yeah, Drupal. Yeah, so these companies are real and they make a ton of money. I think Android has put to bed anybody's fear that like you can't do an open source thing and also control it, right? Google's done a pretty good job of having their cake and eating it too, haven't they? They have like Android, and they figured out, and there's a- Matt: Tesla's doing opensource I think even with their chargers coming up, right? They want to opensource their charging station so other manufacturers can- Jason C.: Build them. Matt: Build them. Jason C.: Yeah, I think they … What everybody realizes is at a certain point, you pick where you want to make your money and make your company defensible. So for Google, everything is opensource, except for their algorithm and their search engine. You can't figure out, that's a black box, right? But they'll opensource everything else to kill their competitors. Then Facebook is like, “We'll make our hardware platform opensource and we'll have everybody working on grinding the hardware quest down. But we're sure we're not gonna make our ad network, or a social graph, that's not gonna be available. It would be lightly available in the API. If you get any kind of traction on the API that gets people to leave Facebook, we're gonna turn you off.” The API for Facebook says, “The API is not designed to make people leave Facebook.” So if you use the API thinking you're gonna bring people to your platform, the second you get traction, they just say, “You're breaking the terms of service.” Matt: Yep. So let's pivot and talk about your current business, Inside.com. Is playing in somebody else's sandbox, I mean as you learned with Mahalo, as sort of some of us listening now. We've learned that from WordPress.com versus WordPress.org, two different businesses, two different entities. Is your play in email sort of saying, “You know what? To heck with these platforms. I'm just gonna go direct.” Jason C.: It's exactly … you couldn't be more right. After years of being frustrated by … Google was a big partner of ours. I was in their first quarterly report for Weblogs, Inc was the partner that they shared that was making money off of advertising. We were making over $2,000 a day. We were like the first million dollar independent company partner. So they used us as a case study, Weblogs, Inc and Gadget, and they used New York Times. I had this great 10 year relationship. I knew the founders of the company. I knew everybody there. Then they just decided to like go ham on us, and all the other content sites, and destroy us. Then when I called them, like I couldn't get my phone calls returned. I was like, “We're partners.” Then Matt Cutts is like, “We don't have partners and you don't have a penalty against you.” I'm like, “90% of our traffic's gone and here's 1,000 emails with your team talking about how great our partnership is.” They basically lied and you can see them getting dinged. They just got a $2.7 billion fine just on comparison shopping, so they're gonna get dinged for local. They get dinged for all these other things as well. They really use their monopolistic position to hurt the companies in their ecosystem, which I understand. I wouldn't have done it that way. They were loved originally by partners. What they should've done is just given us a licensing fee for our content and said, “Hey, if we put your content on the one box or whatever, we're just gonna give you 10 cents a CPM.” All of a sudden Yelp would've been getting a million dollar a month check and everybody would've been happy. Google would've been making 100 million off of that. There was a way for them to do it, and I think they probably regret it now, and they're probably trying to fix it. Or they're laughing all the way to the bank, it doesn't matter. Matt: I feel like they're doing it again with YouTube content and sort of just- Jason C.: Changing the rules. Matt: Yeah, sucking the life out of ad revenue. Jason C.: Yeah. No, all of a sudden they said, “If you have under 10,000 views, no ads.” If CNN talks about a terrorist attack, they can have advertising. If an independent person who helped build YouTube into what it is, like Philip DeFranco, mentions a terrorist attack, they won't put ads on it. So Philip went crazy on them. He said, “Wait a second. I helped build this platform and now you're changing it?” So Philip's leaving the platform. I saw that coming. I left the platform. Wmail is one of these great things. You can go direct and you can make money directly from consumers, so not even having to rely on advertising. Now we're going and saying to our customers, “Hey, pay for the content. We'll give you some extra content if you pay. If you want free, you get whatever it's gonna be, 20% or 60% of the content for free. Some percentage, 50/50, we're not sure yet, 60/40, will be for the paid people and for people who contributed.” We did it with LAUNCH Ticker, our first email newsletter. Of the 27,000 people, we have over 1,000 paying, so about 4%. If I can replicate that with the 200,000 subscribers on Inside.com's 26 newsletters, we'll have a great business. We'll have 8,000 paid subscribers. We'll be making a million dollars a year. That pays for a lot of journalists and you have 20 journalists working from home for that. I'm really interested in owning a deep direct relationship. Now, if you think about it, Gmail is even trying to- Matt: Oh yeah, that was gonna be my next question. Jason C.: For that, with their tabs and putting you in their thing. But it's so hard for them to do. We are even going to be going … We started experimenting with SMS and owning people's relationship there. I think use any of these other platforms if it gets you customers, but own a direct deep relationship. I can't tell you how many people I know who have apps and have no emails. It's like get the email address of these people and email is the big growth hack for Twitter and for a lot of other sites where they email you, “Here's what you missed.” That was the big hack for a lot of these companies. So if you're not collecting emails everywhere, and providing massive value to those email subscribers, you're doing it wrong. Matt: Yeah and I mean as again folks who are listening now, WordPress itself, being an opensource platform, you can do whatever you want. I mean we have tons of folks in the audience who are building membership sites. People are coming to the site. They're paying either $9 bucks a month, $200 bucks a year, transaction happens right on a WordPress site. They can control the content, put up a paywall, all that fun stuff. What's the product evolution of Inside.com? Do you then spin back to where you were five, six years ago and start creating video content along with this stuff, audio content, along- Jason C.: Yeah, anything's possible. I think the goal is once you have 10,000, 20,000 emails, you start to have this virtuous cycle where the news is coming to you. You can bolt anything onto something with 20,000, 30,000 emails, and that's gonna have some amount of success, so it's a very astute observation. It's very possible Inside AI could have a weekly podcast, and the email would drive the podcast. The email content would drive the topics of the podcast, so it's possible we can layer on podcasting onto email. What I found was every business I looked at kept saying if email's the growth thing, why don't we make email look [inaudible 00:32:41], right? Matt: Right. Jason C.: If everybody's looking and saying, “Hey, email is the thing to get growth,” what if the entire product is centered around email, and engagement, and opening it? So that's really what I'm focused on. I set a goal in the beginning like, “Let's get a certain number of opens.” We hit that. Then I said, “Let's get to 50 newsletters. We're halfway there.” Now I'm saying, “Let's get to 1 or 2% of the people who are free, paying. That just started three or four weeks ago, but it's promised thousands of dollars in monthly reoccurring revenue.” It's a very lightweight business, like many people who are part of your audience, I'm like literally aspiring to hitting that million dollars in revenue and having 20 full time 50k a year journalists working from home. A 50k salary for a journalist working from home, or 40k plus benefits, or something in that range, I mean you can get people with three, four or five years experience. We have this thing in New York and San Francisco where they think journalists need to make 70, 80, 90, $100,000. It turns out if you're living in New Hampshire, or Arizona, or other places, to get a work from home job with benefits for 40 or 50k is a tremendous tremendous opportunity. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Jason C.: Because you can't get that salary. If you do get that salary, you probably have to drag your ass into an office. Matt: Right, right. I do miss your Inside Drones YouTube series that you were doing at one point. I do miss that. That was good. Jason C.: We'll get back to it. What we found was we weren't getting … it was cart before horse. When we started doing some of those tests, we weren't getting the engagement that we wanted, and then they were trying to figure out how to regrow it. So it's like oh, let's work backwards, you know? Matt: As we sort of wrap up here because I know you're a little crunched on time. How do you live in that happy chaos? Let me just stage that. I was talking to a founder today and in my mentor session, it was like okay, you're selling your product. You're out there, you're pushing it. But then there's like this little cloud above you. That little 20% of ideas, and testings, and little things you want to try sort of just floats up there. You sort of pull things out every now and again, like your Inside Drones, maybe cart before horse. How do you manage that? Because I feel like you do a lot of that. You're always testing things. You're always trying new ideas. You don't shy away from it. Jason C.: No. Matt: Is there a way for you to manage that? Jason C.: Yeah, for sure. Here's how I look at it. I look at startups themselves when I angel invest and I look at my own little tests as satellites, little missions. If you wanted to find life in the universe, I think the way to do it is to send out 100 probes to 100 different planets that could have life on them, and just see if you get a return signal, right? Matt: Right. Jason C.: That's the way to look at these experiments. If you get to a planet that you think is in the Goldilocks zone and shouldn't be inhabitable, and you get there and there's nobody there, great. You can cross that one off the list. As you start crossing them off the list, you're gonna start getting data. So oh, doing the podcast about drones didn't work, but doing a newsletter did. Okay, what's making the newsletter grow? Oh, doing interviews with people who are CEOs of drone companies means they retweet it, and people get value from it, and blah blah blah blah. You start figuring out what works, which experiments are getting you closer to finding life and which ones are not. Sometimes you gotta cross things off the list to know they don't work. That's really what's entrepreneurship is about, is you're just trying to triangulate around a signal. Sometimes it's a weak signal, but the signal starts getting stronger and stronger, and revenue and engagement are the signals. So open rates are the signal. When we started Inside, we have a newsletter called Daily Brief, which is just about the news of the day. We realized hey 40, 50% of people were opening it in the mornings. Then people were telling us the next day that a lot of the news was stale. So I said okay, let's run a test. Take the thousand people on the list and send like 1,000 of the 10,000 people or 20,000 people, whatever it is, a second edition at 3 o'clock in the afternoon with whatever else has happened, like an update. Just tell them it's an update on what was happening in the morning news. Like, four people were like, “I didn't ask for this.” We're like, “We'll unsubscribe you.” Three of them were like, “Don't unsubscribe, I love it.” But they were kind of upset that they were … I just told the whole list, “Listen, we're moving to twice a day. If you don't like it, unsubscribe.” Someone's like, “I only want once a day.” I was like, “We don't provide that.” They're like, “Okay.” They're like, “You can't do that.” There's always like a couple of people in every crowd where the people at a restaurant who are like, “You can't charge for bread,” and the restaurant's like, “We charge for bread.” “Okay, fine.” Or, “A hamburger should come with french fries. How do you charge for french fries?” Then you would say, “Well, not everybody wants french fries, so we charge an extra dollar for french fries. That's just the way we choose to do it. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.” Sometimes people listen too much to their costumers, so you gotta understand the overall impact of the metrics. That just requires having not a discussion about emotions, or feelings, or predictions, or who's in charge, but data and the crafting of experiments. The Lean Startup's a great book by my friend Erick Ries that talks about this lean startup methodology, which everybody listening to this should be familiar with. Matt: Yeah, definitely. Jason C.: But what's the least costly and quickest way to get the signal to understand if this is gonna work or not? That's your goal. How can you cheaply figure it out? The way I cheaply figure it out was let's just put a newsletter out there. Inside had a news app, hundreds of thousands of people downloaded the app. Less than 1% used it a day. When we send emails, 30, 40, 50% of people open each one and we send two a day. So you put that together, we went 50x using an old technology, and now we don't have seven developers working on an app, eight developers working on an app. The whole app team was maybe eight people, very highly paid people. We can redeploy those eight people's salaries, and hire a dozen journalists, and get further. That's no dig to the … It just turned out that news apps didn't work. I mean I was an investor in Circa and a bunch of other news apps I loved, and used, and nobody made a news app that's worked. It just doesn't work. People forget they have it. Matt: Yeah, I remember when you launched that, and I was like oh man, I don't know if I'm gonna be using this app all the time and I installed it. But then when you pivoted to the straight up email, I was like yes, this is … Because this is all I, I swear to god, this is not just because you're on my show and because I'm a super fan. But it's like the only place I read news now. I don't go into Facebook and even dare click on an article. One, because I don't want to get retargeted. Two, I don't want to see all the bullshit comments that people have to say about stuff. I just want to see the news headlines, get the synopsis, and then click on it if I so desire. I think Inside really hits the mark on that. Jason C.: Thank you. Matt: Oh man. One last followup on that. Ad free and just go membership monetization model moving forward or make sure- Jason C.: Probably a combination. In the free ones, we'll have free ones, and you can rock out with a free one, and there's a little bit of advertising in it, and then we'll have the space of users who pays. One of the things we're experimenting with is just letting people turn off the ad. In Launch Ticker, we let the thousand people turn off the ads, and I think 10 of them or 20 of them took the time to do it. So you can turn the ads off technically by just clicking a button in your profile settings, and it turns out nobody does. People like to see the ads if they're targeted, so I think you can have your cake and eat it too. I think you can have a paid Vanity Fair, though with ads. So it's- Matt: That's a pretty cool idea because I guess if somebody clicked on that, you could. The paid for newsletter just simply doesn't come with ads. If you don't want to see ads in your email, just scrolling the headlines, just pay for it. I mean it's super easy, makes sense. Jason C.: I think like there's this group of people, like when Hulu came out with … I had a Hulu subscription for $10 bucks. It had ads. It was making me crazy because Netflix doesn't have ads and I'm paying $10 bucks for that. Then they made a $13 version that had no ads. I upgraded to that. I think there's probably like 20% of people are sensitive enough that they would pay the extra $3, an extra $36 a year. Then most people would not. In this day and age, I don't know you have to choose. I think it would be brilliant for Netflix to have a version where today, this Saturday, Mercedes is making Netflix free, and you can watch Orange is the New Black and all the original shows are free this Saturday, brought to you by Mercedes. You have to watch a Mercedes ad at the beginning and take a survey at the end. Mercedes could just make a Saturday Mercedes day on Netflix. Netflix gets all the people to download and sample the shows. They give them $10 million or $5 million for doing it. Like, just do one day a month where Netflix is free. It'd be great onboarding. Matt: Yeah, no absolutely. Jason, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this. Look, I am finally- Jason C.: Thanks for reading the book. Matt: Yeah, no problem. Jason C.: I appreciate it. I was like oh, you send a book to a lot of people, and they're like, “Yeah,” you know. I'm like, “What did you like about the book?” You actually have like specific moments in the book. You actually read it, so I really appreciate that. Matt: I actually thought you were gonna say, “How did this schmuck get the book?” Jason C.: No, it's- Matt: Listen, I am only a 10 minute flight away from Nantucket, so whenever you want to have a beer the next time you're in town, you let me know. Jason C.: Oh my gosh, so you're on the Cape somewhere or where? Matt: Yeah, I'm at Dartmouth, Mass. So it's just I hop anywhere to New Bedford, hop on the airline, it's about 10, 15 minutes in air. It's beautiful. Jason C.: I love that place. I love that place, yeah. No, no. Be careful. Matt: Where can folks find you on the web to say thanks? Jason C.: Oh, well Twitter. My Twitter handle is Jason, J-A-S-O-N, same with my Instagram. If you went to check out Inside.com, take a look. Angel, the book, is in stores now. If you tweet me your receipt, I will give you a unicorn number and a name. Matt: That is hilarious by the way. Jason C.: It's pretty hilarious. Yeah, like 300 people have done it, so we give them a unicorn name and a unicorn number, so you count up. We're gonna do 1,000 unicorn names for the first thousand people who tweet their receipts. We're 300 in, so that's good. Matt: Go grab the book, folks. Even if you're not considering angel investment, it's an amazing book to reverse engineer, to find those angel investors out there and get that money into your business. Try to scale. Stop being the development in the basement. Or be the developer in the basement if you want, but- Jason C.: Yeah, just add a zero. Matt: Just add a zero. Just add a zero. Jason C.: That's what I always tell my founders, like just add a zero. Then they add the zero, so I said, “Okay, let's add one more and we're done.” Matt: Oh, that's awesome stuff. It's MattReport.com, MattReport.com/subscribe to join the mailing list. Thanks everybody. Jason C.: Thanks Matt. ★ Support this podcast ★

Matt listens to Nasir recap the developing battle in his hometown of Vandalia, Ohio over whether a Dunkin Donuts can move into a location in close proximity to a local favorite donut shop. They then discusswhether the issue is more legal or personal. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: What are we doing today, Matt? MATT: Well, I’ve never been to this place or this city but I’m going to give a little bit of background and then we’re just going to kind of take it from there, I guess. By the way, for the listeners, I feel like this is close to where you’re from so I think there’s something in here that you’re not telling me but, anyway, Vandalia, Ohio – I think that’s how you pronounce it. NASIR: Vandalia, Ohio. You got it. MATT: Okay, got it. So, Jim’s Donut Shop, from what I can tell, it sounds like they’ve been there quite a long time by kind of what this public backlash has been. Anyway, Jim’s Donut Shop has been up and running. It seems like a pretty small town. But, apparently, Dunkin’ Donuts – as it did in San Diego, I think they’re still only the one location but they’re expanding out – they want to put not only a new location in the city but very close to, in close proximity to where Jim’s Donut Shop is located. I think I’ve seen differing numbers but it seems like the farthest it would be is a few hundred feet. NASIR: Yeah. First of all, you did get the name right. This is the town that I grew up. Jim’s Donuts, I think we need to span at least the first twenty minutes of this episode just on Jim’s Donuts. MATT: Okay. NASIR: I think it’s very important to understand that, yes, I mean, literally, my family talks about going to Jim’s Donuts on a Sunday morning to get donuts. It’s funny because this place actually has this feel. You know, there’s a lot of older people that seem to go there and I don’t know if they still do this. They used to smoke in there and I think a lot of people would go there for the coffee and maybe truck drivers. You know, it’s a stop. Vandalia, Ohio, is basically Highway 75 and Highway 70 Intersection which are two very long highways that, if you’ve ever traveled cross-country, you’ve probably rode on one of those. MATT: You said 70? NASIR: Yeah, Interstate 70 and 75. When I moved to San Diego, I literally got on with my high school buddy, Nathan, and we drove from Vandalia, Ohio, all the way to Las Vegas, I think, on Highway 70 and then got on Highway 15. But, anyway, you know, I don’t know if they still do but the donuts there – it sounds derogatory but, trust me, it’s not – it had this taste to it, almost as if some of the cigarette smoke would get into the batter but it was part of it, you know? What’s funny about this story is I’m very torn and the reason is because, you know, I can’t talk some of it but the property that Dunkin’ Donuts is planning on buying us actually owned by my dad. I’m actually very familiar with the transaction so, obviously, I can’t talk about some things but, obviously, if somehow the city mixes this deal, then we’re not going to be able to sell that property so it’s kind of a big deal for us. But I do like Jim’s Donuts! MATT: I knew there was something secret you had planned for this. You wanted me to give a background on a story where you seemed much more familiar with than I did. NASIR: It’s just so weird that Dunkin’ Donuts would be built on 34 and 42 East National Road which, of course, 42 East National Road is where my dad’s office used to be before he retired. MATT: Oh, well, we should have had him as a guest. NASIR: I know, I was thinking about calling him. It’d be funny. I already know his take, luckily. So, I can speak on his behalf as his attorney. MATT: It seemed like there was a couple of things or there’s things – some legal, some non-legal – preventing Dunkin’ Donuts from moving into this space.

Nasir and Matt discuss the class action suit against Jessica Alba's Honest Company for allegedlyselling products that contained harmful chemicals. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: And we get to cover your favorite actress today, right? She is an actress, right? MATT: Yeah, and I have something to bring up. She has like a bio on their company site. It’s Jessica Alba and it says, “Golden Globe-nominated actress whose career includes roles in films such as Fantastic Four, blah blah blah… and television shows like Dark Angel, The Office, and Entourage.” When was she on The Office? That’s what I trying to remember. Was that a typo? NASIR: Yeah, it’s a typo. MATT: She’s prone to typos or making mistakes. NASIR: Making mistakes, yeah. MATT: We’ll get down to the bottom of this before the end of the episode. You know, how do you choose the name of your company if you’re starting a new company? You know, there’s a lot of thought that’s put into the name, probably – or at least I would hope. Her company is called Honest – The Honest Company Inc. Started in California in 2011 – maybe a little bit later, 2014? Somewhere in that range. NASIR: Sorry to interrupt. I had to look it up, of course, on The Office. I couldn’t get over it. Apparently, remember there was a movie within the show where Jim and Pam would watch? MATT: That doesn’t count. Yeah. NASIR: She was in that with Jack Black. I guess she was on The Office. MATT: All right. Well, that’s fine. She’s not lying about it but why would that be…? NASIR: How she’s known for? I know. It was like one episode, right? MATT: And that one was tricky, if you remember, because it was I think someone right after the Superb Bowl and they kept billing it as “oh, we have all these big names in this episode with Jack Black, Jessica Alba and all these people” and then we got into the actual episode which was funny. The episode was funny, I’ll give them that. But it was tricky because these actors just being in a separate show. NASIR: It was a little deceiving or dishonest, I would say, no? MATT: Perfect, there you go – dishonest – and that’s what we’re getting to and it is deceiving. It was misrepresentation. Whether it’s intentional or negligent, it was something. NASIR: That is the question. MATT: Here is the problem. So, she has this company that has all these I guess we’ll call them beauty products and products for babies and kids. NASIR: I think they’re trying to expand in different vertical. I mean, they do baby wipes, too. MATT: Oh, I that was the reason it started – because she’s a mom of two and she wanted to have these “safe products” that are not full of all these chemicals like most things out there and that’s fine and that’s why she named it The Honest Company because our products are honestly made without all these things and there’s a whole list of them on the website. And so, one of the them is SLS – this is listing it as sodium lauryl? Do I have the right thing? NASIR: Yeah, it’s a sodium lauryl sulfate. MATT: Okay. Yeah, sodium lauryl sulfate – SLS. NASIR: They’re not selling that. That’s what’s in it. MATT: Just bottles of that. NASIR: They’re selling a laundry detergent that is apparently SLS is a common known chemical. It’s used a lot in soaps and different things like that. It’s a common active ingredient but apparently – for whatever reason – some people say it’s not good so they were basically selling this laundry detergent. If you look at the product, it will list out all the chemicals that it doesn’t have. As we commonly see, we see a list of ingredients. Part of their transparency is they list all the ingredients that it doesn’t have and that’s one of them. MATT: Right, and that’s the whole Honest aspect of it, you know? It’s trying to be honest about things. “We honestly don’t have these chemicals,

Nasir and Matt talk about the story out of Texas that Mexican restaurants were reportedly attempting to ban Trump supporters from eating at their restaurants. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist to that business news. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: Today, we’re talking politics. MATT: I wanted to bring up one thing first. I don’t know if you do this one purpose but I think this is the third March we’ve done the podcast. I think all three years we’ve recorded on the same time when Dayton is playing. NASIR: Dayton’s playing right now? MATT: In about five minutes they’re starting up. NASIR: Oh, okay. Well, I’ll pull that up, too. San Diego State didn’t make it this year which is a pretty big deal. MATT: No, they didn’t. Long story short, they had some bad losses at the beginning of the year. They lost their conference tournament the final so they lost the automatic bid and so they were on the bubble. I’m not going to say they should have made it but there might have been one or two teams. There’s definitely at least one, maybe two teams that made it that San Diego State should have made ahead of but that’s kind of how it works. NASIR: I mean, I heard they should have won the championship. They were favored in that game, right? MATT: Oh, yeah, their conference is terrible so they should have but, yeah, your Dayton Flyers are… NASIR: Dayton Flyers, all my high school buddies are not surprised that I have no idea. Well, anyway, let’s talk something I could actually discuss – not sports but politics. MATT: Yeah, this is an interesting one. You realize this was a fake thing that happened, right? NASIR: Yeah, not to talk actual politics but I was kind of hoping it was real but, okay, fine. MATT: When you first told me about it, I assumed it was real then I started looking into it and realized it was fake after I read a couple of stories. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: But I think this was in the San Antonio area, is that right? Or was it all spread out through Texas? NASIR: I feel like it was just in the area because it was one person that was doing it but I’m sure it may have happened in other places but these are the two stories that we picked up. MATT: Basically, what was happening is someone was going around, putting up these signs at Mexican restaurants and I’ll read this one because it’s kind of humorous at the end. “We stand with our fellow Mexican restaurants and their efforts against hateful speech. We will also no longer be serving people who display support for the views of the presidential candidate, Donald Trump. You can’t have your taco and eat it, too. Standing together.” And then, the logo of this restaurant… NASIR: Taco Cabana. MATT: Yeah, and there was another one, not the exact same sign but a similar thing at another Mexican café, Mama Margie’s. Somebody I guess was going around, putting these signs up. Before the story kind of broke, people thought that these Mexican restaurants had band together and were going to outright disallow anyone who was a Trump supporter to eat at their fine establishments. NASIR: There was a lot of confusion because some people were saying that, no, some employee did it or whatever. But this Mama Margery’s in San Antonio, apparently, they had some video footage of someone else coming in from the parking lot, putting the flyer up, and taking a picture. In a Twitter response on their company account was like, “The message was not approved by Mama Margery’s.” By the way, it doesn’t sound like a great Mexican restaurant but okay. MATT: It’s Margie, I think. NASIR: Is it Margie? Oh, well, maybe that’s why. MATT: I don’t know if that makes it better. NASIR: Oh, yeah, but it says, “I’m in the business of tacos, not politics, which is way yummier!” which is a fine response. Yeah, it was fake, but then it really begs the question of can you do that? I mean,

The guys live long and prosper by welcoming Star Trek expert Michael Liberto to discuss the Prelude of Axanar fan film and the copyright infringement claims alleged by CBS and Paramount. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. With us, we have our Star Trek expert, Matt Staub. MATT: Oh, no. Well, we talked about Star Wars – it was in December, right? Or maybe January? NASIR: The last thing you want to do is basically say Star Wars and Star Trek are the same thing but go ahead. Please, go ahead. MATT: I know. I almost didn’t because I know it was going to be bad. But, yeah, I only brought it up because of this. We talked about Star Wars a month or two ago – or whenever the movie came out – and I knew some but Star Trek I know even less – actually, very little at all. So, I’m not the expert by any means. But, luckily, we found somebody who is a Star Trek expert and this is Michael Liberto. MICHAEL: Hey! How are you doing? NASIR: Thanks for joining us! Just so everyone knows, he is our resident Star Trek episode for all our Star Trek episodes that we’ve had and will have going forward which I’m sure will be a ton. But thanks for joining us! MICHAEL: Yeah, thanks for having me. NASIR: So, Matt, why do we have him on? What are we talking about here? MATT: Michael is going to chime in on a lot of this but let me give the premise as I understand it. There was a group of fans that actually started a Kickstarter to raise some funds to produce this fan movie, essentially, about Star Trek called Axanar and I think, at this point, they’ve only produced kind of the prelude of it – not the full-length picture that they ultimately want to end up doing. You know, to be honest, I looked at it and it’s actually pretty good quality. It looked very professional in my opinion. They’ve put out this prelude to it. Now, CBS and – I can’t remember who else. MICHAEL: Paramount. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: We’ll fill in the blanks for you. MATT: Basically, they’re saying, “Look, this is straight up copyright infringement. There’s a lot of issues with this. You can’t be doing this. Blah blah blah.” In order for us to kind of explain the legal side of things, we need to understand the factual side of things. That’s why we were hoping, Michael, that you’d be able to fill us in on some of these holes that we can’t really help with. My first question – and maybe this is a stupid question – what is Axanar? MICHAEL: Well, Axanar is a planet that’s part of the Federation. It’s nearby Vulcan and Andoria and a bunch of other Federation planets. But, more importantly, it would be kind of a Prelude to Axanar – you had mentioned that before – is this brilliant piece done. Seriously, the quality of this is exceptional. But it’s a pretty long story. Axanar is basically a planet where the Federation Admiral Ramizer is the gentleman making the Constitution class vessel which we know could be the original Enterprise. NASIR: I’ve heard of that. MICHAEL: Yes, they’re kind of warship models because the Federation didn’t have any warships until four years’ war with the Klingons and Axanar where it is being produced. In the Prelude to Axanar, we can see in this documentary feature the Supreme Warlord sending their brand new D7 battle cruiser to Axanar to wipe out the Federation’s ability to fight this war. Prelude to Axanar is the beginning of this huge battle that’s going to decide the four years’ war. NASIR: Everything you’re describing is completely new stuff, right? This isn’t something that Paramount or some of their Star Trek writers came up with. This is a spin-off, right? MICHAEL: It is a spin-off but there are a couple of caveats. First of all, Garth of Izar is mentioned in a couple of original series – well, actually, in one original series show – and he is the role model of Captain Kirk. Also, Ambassador Soval – who is played by an actor named Gary Graham – he...

Nasir and Matt talk about the Seattle startup SwanLuv, which quickly shifted its business model of giving couples free loans for weddings. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: Matthew Staub, we are continuing our week of talking about startups that have had some growing pains. MATT: Yeah, this one seems to be all pain, actually. NASIR: Yeah, from the beginning, right? MATT: Well, I was trying to figure out when exactly they started all this. From what I can tell, there was a ton of stories in December – you know, a couple of months ago. I’m guessing it’s been about two months since they ramped up and started. But let me just explain what this company is. I had not actually even heard of this, surprisingly. This is the type of story that my wife would have come across and said, “Hey, have you heard about this? You should have this on the podcast.” It’s called Swanluv. I’ll tell you the original premise and what they are now. The original idea was they would give a loan up to $10,000 to a couple for their wedding expenses with no obligation to pay it back. All right, sounds too good to be true, right? NASIR: Great idea! MATT: But, yeah, terrible business model of just giving away up to $10,000 in request. But the catch was, if the couple didn’t stay together – i.e. if they got divorced – I assume it’s just divorce and not any sort of death or anything like that, I think it has to be divorce – if the couple end up getting divorced, they would have to pay the loan back, the principal back with interest. That’s the general idea of what they were doing. There’s a lot of problems with this, one of which was apparently they had this algorithm or formula or something like a questionnaire and the couples would enter this information and they would calculate the risk based on how they answered certain questions. NASIR: You know that’s all made up, too. MATT: Oh, yeah. NASIR: As if they can actually predict that. What’s crazy too is that they planned on funding the loans from people breaking up. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: That means that, in theory, they’d have to front a lot of money until these things actually started coming in. Forget about the whole collection issues and the issues that people would try to get out of this by not divorcing but just separating and how are they going to keep track that people are staying married? I mean, I can go on and on but, I mean, can we at least agree that it’s not a good idea as far as a startup business? Like, if someone came to you, like, “Hey, here’s my 60-second pitch, this is what I like to do. Could you not laugh at the idea?” That’s the question. MATT: Was the idea to just constantly search for recently filed divorces? How are they going to keep track of it? Even if they found out that a couple got divorced, how are they going to collect on it? NASIR: And we’re talking about years later, right? MATT: Yeah. NASIR: I suppose people are going to remember that, if they get divorced, they’re going to have to pay $10,000. But, when people divorce, from a financial perspective, it’s a mess, right? Most of the time, both parties lose money – or at least one party. I should say, a collective community property, there’s a lot of money lost. There’s money lost on attorneys, a lot of credit cards get left unpaid, credit goes down. In other words, there’ll be other debts. Let alone, of course, people that are borrowing this money – so-called borrowing – may not have been in a very good financial condition anyway. Also, a lot of divorces are caused by financial stress. MATT: Ah, that’s the point I had. NASIR: Oh, okay, you did? Okay. MATT: You brought up a good point before that and, obviously, the people that were going to do this needed the money so they might not be in the best financial position. But the thing I was going to say was I thought that – t...

The guys kick off the week by discussing the Federal law thatwould prevent companies from using non-disparagement clauses. They also discuss how to detect whether Yelp reviews are fake. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha and, joining us today is our expert on non-disparagement clauses aka “gag clauses.” MATT: Yeah, I always have to be an expert in something. I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: That’s right. So, Matt, I mean, what makes you the expert in this area? MATT: Well, I think it all kind of started when I just used to give a ton of… NASIR: Disparaging reviews? MATT: I used to go into businesses and buy a product or pay for services or say I was going to pay for services or buy a product and then, once I finally got the product or the services were performed, I could pay you and write something terrible about your business or you could just give me the product or service for free. That’s where it all kind of started. NASIR: Okay. Basically, you blackmailed businesses? MATT: Oh, I wouldn’t say blackmail. NASIR: No, yeah, you just call it some type of mail but… MATT: Yeah, you know. We’ve definitely talked about this before – at least on the California side. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: If I remember correctly, initially, there was some sort of partial ban and then it got fully banned. I don’t remember the language but, right now in California, it’s been fully banned. We’re talking about non-disparagement clauses. NASIR: Yeah, you might want to tell everyone what was banned. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: They may think otherwise. But, yeah, non-disparagement clauses are those clauses and those agreements which basically say, “Okay, by signing this contract, you can’t say anything bad about us in the public or in general – in private too. “I mean, you can make it pretty general. Obviously, at first glance, it’s like, “Okay, wait a minute, I mean, I can’t speak?” That’s kind of encroaching on freedom of speech and things like that. But, classically, what is a confidentiality clause? I mean, that’s basically what it is. It’s for you to stop spreading information. It’s not like there’s no precedence of actually enforcing these kinds of non-disparagement clauses but, of course, as we’ve seen, it can be definitely abused by businesses. MATT: Yeah, and it can. I mean, I’ll read the… because it’s fairly short – at least this part of it – this is the Civil Code in California. NASIR: Wait, are you going to read the entire Civil Code? MATT: No, yeah, Section 1 – Definitions, probably. This is 1670.8 A1. “A contract or proposed contract for the sale or lease of consumer goods or services may not include a provision waiving the customer’s right to make any statement regarding the seller or lessor or its employees or agents or…” This is terribly written. “Or concerning the goods or services. It shall be unlawful to threaten or seek to enforce a provision made…” I don’t even know why I’m reading this. NASIR: I’d tell you, you should have just started at Section 1. That would have been probably better, more interesting. MATT: Basically, the gist of it is you can’t threaten some sort of penalty against the customer for writing a review. I mean, I think that was the idea behind it. NASIR: Yeah, and this goes back to I think one of the most publicized case on this was about two years ago – end of 2013. I don’t know if you remember the company but basically they sued their customers on this clause that basically said that, if you leave a bad review or basically disparage us, then you owe us a liquidation damage of $5,000 or so. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: They ended up suing and became this big case. Since then, there’s been other cases like this where some courts have said, “Okay, this is unconscionable, this is ridiculous. This is encroaching on this and that.” But I think most judges have been kind of reluctant to really get involved with two parties th...

The guys discuss Starbucks firing a deaf employee and what is considered a reasonable accommodation for someone requiring a sign language interpreter. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha and I have a Jolly Rancher in my mouth. MATT: Could have just waited, and I’m Matt Staub, and I’m saying you could have just waited for however long it takes. NASIR: I thought it would be melted by now. MATT: What flavor? NASIR: I don’t know if it melts. It’s sour apple. MATT: Oh. NASIR: I think the best flavor. MATT: The worst, probably. NASIR: Really? That’s the best. It’s the only one I think I really like. MATT: Well, if you ever noticed – actually, I don’t know – maybe the green ones but it seems like every time someone has Jolly Ranchers on their desk or like, when you walk into a building, it’s always grape. No one ever has the grape ones. NASIR: I actually like the grape and the green ones. All the red ones kind of just mash into each other like watermelon and cherry. MATT: Yeah, you can’t decipher one. It’s just red. I mean, it should just be colors – cherry, strawberry, watermelon, raspberry. NASIR: And blue. MATT: Yeah. Blue is usually raspberry, I think. NASIR: Yeah, but blue tastes unnatural – not that any of these others taste natural but… MATT: Well, at least the sour apples are usually green. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: Not that the skin of the apple is produced in the Jolly Ranchers but, yeah, blue raspberry is obviously very unnatural. NASIR: Yeah, exactly. MATT: Not that any of them are very authentically flavored in terms of juice. Anyway, I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about today. Let me make sure. Nope, we’re not. NASIR: Any smooth transition into this? I don’t think so. MATT: No. I mean, there probably is, but I’m not going to even go for it. This is pretty interesting. I don’t know if we’ve ever talked about a sign language related issue before. NASIR: No, and I know we haven’t because, if we did, I would have definitely mentioned that I took a couple of semesters of sign language in college which was awesome. I still know some of the basics so I can kind of eavesdrop on a lot of people’s conversations from a distance which is very rude and taboo. MATT: Why did you take those classes? NASIR: I have no idea. In fact, my wife asked me the same thing. Like, “I don’t know why you took those classes.” I met my wife in a foreign language class so I didn’t need it for a language credit. I think I just did it because I was interested in it. MATT: That’s what I was going to ask because, my wife, they had to take some sort of language class and she opted for sign language but that wasn’t the case with you, I guess. NASIR: No, I’ve taken first year languages – many, many different languages. I’m not fluent in any other language but I’ve taken a lot of first for like one year or so. MATT: You basically can say “my name is…” in every language. NASIR: Precisely. MATT: “How are you?” and then just nothing. NASIR: Correct – which I don’t know which is better – which I would rather be. MATT: Fluent in one. Well, I guess fluent in multiple languages. I assume you’re fluent at least in English. NASIR: Barely. MATT: All right. NASIR: I can say my name then that’s it. I can do an introduction of a podcast. MATT: Ah. Well, anyway, this is a sign language based story we’re talking about which actually falls under disability which we’ll get to but let me tell some back story. This Starbucks in Arizona and I’ve read a couple of different stories on this so I’m going to pull the facts from one of them and, if it happens to be off, then I’ll blame this specific article but there’s a woman that worked at Starbucks from 2007 to 2014. That’s a pretty good amount of time. She was doing sign language from the beginning of 2007 throughout the duration of her employment and so she was working there, no problems.

Nasir and Matt discuss how racism led to employees getting fired and another instance where a judge overturned a decision to terminate a racist employee. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Okay. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist to that business news. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: And welcome to our program. I’m excited today because we get to talk about racism – my favorite topic. MATT: Your favorite topic? NASIR: Well, every podcast topic is my favorite topic. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: That’s how I justify that comment. MATT: So, right off the bat, I’m a little curious about this story that we’re going to start with. I guess there was a manager at a Lowe’s in Virginia and they had an African American delivery truck driver and I guess assuming a white customer was not happy with the fact that the black driver was the one making the deliveries so that person requested that they have a white driver do the deliveries. My first question is – before we get too deep into it – like, how many deliveries from Lowe’s is someone getting where this is an actual issue? I don’t know if that’s going to be answered in this but that was my first question. And so, the customer makes the request in asking if someone else can be the delivery person that was white. When the manager of Lowe’s asked why and she said, “Because you’re black.” NASIR: I think you’re misreading it. MATT: Oh, that’s the manager. NASIR: Yeah, that’s the manager, because actually what happened was some woman was I guess inside the store and I guess they knew beforehand because apparently she wouldn’t deal with any of the black customer service representatives or salesmen. And so, when she had a delivery, they already knew beforehand that she didn’t want any black delivery drivers for her particular delivery. For some reason, I picture an old, old woman but I suppose it could be young, too. That’s just I guess my image of it. MATT: Now you’re running into age problems. NASIR: Ageist? MATT: Yeah. NASIR: Is it better to be a racist or to be an ageist? MATT: I think it’s worse to be racist because, if you’re ageist, the older people are going to die off sooner than the… NASIR: Wrong answer. They’re both equally bad. MATT: Oh. NASIR: It was a trick question. MATT: That’s fine. I’m sticking with my answer. NASIR: All kind of prejudice is wrong, Matt. MATT: If you’re ageist and you’re against older people, eventually, you will become older presumably and it doesn’t work the other way where, if you’re against one race, you’re most likely not going to become the other race throughout time. NASIR: You could be against younger people and you’re no longer going to be younger either so, even though you once were, it’s like you’ve transitioned out. It’s like, “Okay, I’m better than that now, I’m no longer five years old.” MATT: Or maybe you’re just against anyone who’s not your age? NASIR: Also very similar. Well, anyway, back to racism… MATT: So, we had this incident with this customer and the manager – I mean, they say the customer is always right but I think this was one of those times where the manager has to step in and say something. I think it’s worth losing this one customer over this issue because the manager ended up going forward with it and, as a result, this manager – and I believe two others involved, right? – ended up getting terminated as a result. NASIR: Yeah, and it’s weird. Of course, the conversation you were referencing is that conversation with the driver and one of the managers. It’s like, “Okay, well, why can’t I just go?” and this is according to the driver and he describes the manager as telling him that, “Oh, it’s because you’re black.” Of course, that’s probably the worst answer you can respond to that question. I kind of understand it because it’s like, you know, “This lady is being unreasonable or whatever. I just want to do my job.

Nasir and Matt discuss the settlement from a class action lawsuit involving Nike and Apple for an underperforming product. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I am Matt Staub. NASIR: Right on cue. Did you see how I pointed to you? I was going to do the “three, two…” with the silent one and then for you to go. MATT: Always helpful. NASIR: No problem. That’s why I’m here – to make sure you’re on-time. MATT: Who do we talk about today? Cecil, the Lion? NASIR: No, poor Cecil. MATT: Oh. NASIR: They still can’t find the dentist. I guess the authorities went to his door and knocked on the door and then he didn’t come out. Like, literally that was the article I read. Like, they don’t know where he is. But, if you’re just going to his house and knock on the door, that’s probably not the best way to find him. MATT: “We saw his car. We saw somebody walk in five minutes earlier but, when we knocked, nobody answered. So, you can only assume he’s not there.” Well, no Cecil, the Lion. But, we are going to talk about these FuelBands. NASIR: Yeah, Nike Fuel. MATT: Nike Fuel. Do you have one of these? Did you buy this? NASIR: No, I didn’t buy that version. Nike Fuel’s actually been out for a while, but I did know people that used to have it and I think that my dad ended up buying one, eventually, but what’s goofy about it, is that he would just shake his arm – and I’ve seen other people do that – and basically it acts like you are moving or whatever so you could reach your goal pretty quickly that way. MATT: Well, that’s probably why we’re talking about it and there was this class action settlement, and not only Nike but Apple was involved as well in this too. So, let me get to the class action part of it, I guess, the settlement terms. Basically, the agreement is, if you bought a FuelBand from January 2012 through June 2015, you are going to be entitled to either a $15.00 payment or a $25.00 gift card which reminds me, I never received any Red Bulls. NASIR: Yeah, I haven’t either. Sometimes it takes time. MATT: I haven’t moved. I’m still here. Red Bull, if you’re listening, I haven’t got my two Red Bulls that are probably going to be not tasting very good because it’s going to be so hot and bottom of the barrel Red Bull. Anyways, there is this class action settlement and it kind of centers around this false advertising claim essentially saying that the things that it’s supposed to do – the FuelBands are supposed to do like, track steps and count calories – actually didn’t do that very accurately and that comes as no surprise based on what you just told me that you essentially move your wrist around and you’re burning tons of calories. NASIR: Yeah, exactly. There’s plenty of these things now. I had the FitBit when it came out – well, actually, after it came out about a year or two ago – and then now I have a Samsung Gear Fit that goes really well with my phone. But, frankly, I mean, these are all pretty useless when it comes to accuracy. In fact, when I was buying mine, I remember to figure out what was the most accurate. People would take like five or six arm bands and wear them for the day and they’d all have different numbers. So, I guess, in theory, one of them could be accurate. But, most likely, they weren’t and I think the most important thing is consistency because, just the nature of measuring steps and distances, it’s not a complete science – you know, it’s not a ruler where you’re measuring something in that respect. But, the problem is that, when you’re selling something – in other words, okay, they settled, right? Nike and Apple, they say that they want to avoid litigation costs so let’s just get rid of these guys and settle this lawsuit and that’s well and good and that possibly may be the case but there could have been liability here because, think about it,

Nasir and Matt discuss the staffing agency that is being accused of negligent retention of an employee who embezzled funds with the company she was placed with. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha, here in Houston, Texas. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub, in an undisclosed location, not in Houston, Texas. NASIR: Undisclosed, in the middle of the desert of San Diego which is a desert, by the way. MATT: You know, it has been pretty warm. Today was pretty warm. Rumors are there’s going to be some more rain which it rained a couple of weekends ago. It’s pretty rare but, yeah, it never really happens. NASIR: By the way, I think we should start a tradition. Every Monday episode, let’s talk about the weather for five minutes before we start. MATT: It always is you mention something and I’m just staring at the window as I’m talking and usually noticing what the weather is like as I’m recording. It’s just kind of how it happens. NASIR: Well, my wife is there right now, enjoying the weather. MATT: Oh, is she? NASIR: Hello to her. MATT: It’s a big city so I probably won’t see her. NASIR: Oh, just keep an eye out. You may run into her. MATT: I’ll keep an eye out. NASIR: But everything’s going on in Texas. MATT: We got a Texas story to start off here. There was a staffing agency and a company. The staffing agency placed a certain employee with this company and what the details of it are basically the staffing agency placed this – I believe it was an accountant, or at least I’m assuming such because it was dealing with funds – but the person that they placed with this company embezzled $15 million over eight years which doesn’t even really seem possible. I mean, if you’re generating a lot of income, then okay. But, still, for any business, that’s still a decent chunk of change. I mean, that’s what? A little under $2 million a year that this person was able to embezzle out of the company. NASIR: But what’s weird is… I think this was a “she,” right? MATT: Yeah, she. NASIR: She was placed as a receptionist and then she was promoted to the head of accounting. MATT: Not even Pam Halpert could get all the way to accounting. She went from receptionist to sales. Actually, not to get too far off-track but wasn’t it Kevin who came in for a receptionist position or something? Maybe even like janitor? And Michael’s like, “You know, I had a hunch so I hired him as an accountant.” NASIR: Exactly, and I suppose the “head of accounting” – who knows exactly what that means of how big this company is but $15 million, obviously, how you lose that money and not notice it, I’m sure it was a large enough company for that to happen. MATT: I would think so. And so, there was this big theft of $15 million essentially and what the company was saying was this was the staffing agency that’s at fault here because they should have conducted a criminal background check on this individual because, in this instance, she did have a prior theft record. I mean, I’m sure it probably didn’t amount to $15 million in over eight years theft issue but, still, nonetheless, there was a criminal background. And so, the company was saying the staffing agency failed to notify them of this individual’s criminal record. I guess, at some point, they discovered it down the road – and I’m not sure exactly what that was – but that was kind of the bulk of their argument and the first thing you’re going to think of was, “Well, what was in the agreement between the staffing agency and the company?” Because that’s probably going to give us a good idea of who’s ultimately going to be responsible for this. NASIR: By the way, I have more information now. You know, Jacob, our law clerk helped us research this and he linked some old article from back in 2012 and I’m just like, “Why is this relevant?” and it’s because this is the exact same embezzlement. Apparently,

The guys close out the week but talking about the data breach on the second largest dating website and why we may not see the lawsuit you would expect. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha, the host and co-host of Legally Smart Sound Business dotcom – not dotcom, the podcast. MATT: Host and co-host. NASIR: And also joining me is Matthew Staub. MATT: Exactly. Don’t even have to say it. NASIR: And who are you? MATT: You already said it. NASIR: Well, I mean, I said someone’s joining me. No one knows who you are though. MATT: Oh, Matt Staub. You said my name, too. NASIR: Yeah, but what are you doing here? MATT: I’m co-host, not host. NASIR: Co-host of the podcast. MATT: Exactly. NASIR: By the way, how did you do research for today’s topic? Did you do it on your computer while you were next to your significant other? MATT: No. Actually, I think you had sent me a link about this earlier in the week so I already knew about it. My wife had seen it because she browses Yahoo! top stores for some reason – the only person that goes to Yahoo! NASIR: No, my wife does too. In fact, she already knew it as well. I’ll ask her to find out how she found out about it. MATT: We were sitting there and she’s like, “Oh, there’s a site for cheaters.” It’s like, “Yeah, we talked about this on the podcast.” NASIR: Don’t you listen and take notes. MATT: We definitely talked about this. NASIR: We barely mentioned it, yeah. MATT: Yeah, because her point was like, “Why wouldn’t the spouse just create an account and see if their other spouse is on there?” I was like, “I don’t even know how it works, to be honest.” I mean, maybe that could work but I think it’s secret. NASIR: Yeah, I assume it’s anonymous or something. MATT: It has to be. But we’re talking about… NASIR: Or is it? MATT: Well, yeah, it has to be based on what we’re talking about now. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: So, Ashley Madison, I guess they classified as a dating site because it’s considered the second-largest dating site. NASIR: No way? Second-largest? MATT: Yeah. NASIR: I’m so surprised, actually. MATT: Behind match.com, 37 million users. NASIR: Wow. No way. I honestly cannot believe that. That’s crazy. MATT: With more than 37 million members worldwide, Ashley Madison claims to be the world’s second-largest dating website, only match.com has more or is bigger. NASIR: Wow. MATT: Yeah, pretty new site. The problem now is that the site was hacked and whoever has hacked it – or whomever has hacked it – is threatening to reveal the information of the users which is going to be a problem because now all these adulterers are going to be revealed to the general public. I guess it’s going to do something that’s going to match the information to find out names and addresses, et cetera. I mean, I don’t know the details of the actual threatened hack but this could pretty much be a game-changer. It probably is already a game-changer for this site. I bet it’s probably ruined now. NASIR: Yeah. I mean, this has been heavily populized, no? MATT: Publicized. NASIR: Publicized. Populized… Publicized in the media to the extent that pretty much even people that didn’t know about the site now know about the site but know it as a place that, if you want to cheat on your spouse, your information is not necessarily private. The most interesting part about this and I think where we’re kind of covering this is that Ashley Madison apparently told its customers that, okay, if you pay $19.00 then they’re going to completely erase your profile information. The implication of that is that, okay, well, if I pay this extra amount then that means that pretty much your information is protected and it’s pretty much deleted. I can foresee this where – I don’t know – maybe your subpoenaed or Ashley Madison’s subpoenas for its records to some kind of legal issue, legal dispute,

Nasir and Matt celebrate the 200th episode by discussing America's pastime and why the FBI has decided to get involved with a scandal in Major League Baseball. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha – first baseman. MATT: Oh, no, I’m Matt Staub and, actually, I played first base because I’m left-handed. NASIR: Oh, that’s just my last name – first baseman. I don’t even know what you’re talking about. MATT: I only really ever played first base and pitched for a little bit but I was mostly first base just because, if you’re left-handed, that’s pretty much the role you get thrown into just because it’s advantageous. You have the glove on your right hand and you can catch all the balls that are thrown from the rest of the infielders. NASIR: I didn’t play much baseball but I think I was in the best position. Isn’t the best position in tee-ball right outfield? That’s what I was. MATT: There’s probably four outfielders. Well, in regular baseball, there’s only three outfielders but there may be, like, a left, a right, a right center, and a left center. NASIR: I’m pretty sure there was just three. I just remember – gosh, I hated that tee-ball. I did one season and it was horrible. I was a soccer guy. MATT: Yeah. I mean, I liked baseball but focused on other sports after a while – not soccer. NASIR: You were tennis and golf? You look like a tennis and golf guy. MATT: Yeah, I play tennis. I liked playing golf but I was never really good at it. But, yeah, tennis was what I went with. No regrets for me – easier sport to play than baseball. All right. Well, this is a pretty interesting story. It kind of just came out of nowhere. By the time this goes up, it won’t be fresh in the news but, as of the day we’re recording this, this is still a pretty new story and I guess there could be a lot of things that happen between now and then, but the FBI’s gotten involved with one of the baseball teams in the Major League Baseball. The St. Louis Cardinals are investigating this hacking issue. Let me give a little background facts here. The current Astros general manager used to work for St. Louis Cardinals. I’m not sure in what capacity but he had developed this system that was used that they called Redbird – this computer network that he was a part of. Eventually, he left the Cardinals and went to the Astros and developed a similar style computer system that he called Ground Control and there’s a lot that goes into this. I guess one of the big things – for those of you who don’t know a lot about baseball – there’s all these different levels before you come up to the major leagues. This whole minor league system and there’s a strategy of when you bring players up because you don’t want to bring a player up too quick because he might just not be ready and then it ruins his… it’s a mental game after that and then it just ruins him for the rest of his career. So, part of it was they have this whole system in place of when to bring players up but they also have more confidential information as well such as trade proposals – stuff that would be a great thing to have if you’re trying to get inside information on a team. So, Houston set this up. As of right now when I’m going over this story, they don’t know who the people in the Cardinals organization was that did this, but they basically were like, “Oh, yeah, that guy that used to work for us, he had that master password list, let’s take a look at it.” They took a look at it and I guess one or multiple passwords lined up and they were able to hack into the Houston Astros system at that point because I guess he used the same password. I guess that’s a whole other issue of where that’s crossing the line in terms of hacking but, you know, they were able to gain access to basically a lot of confidential and proprietary information in one of their opposing team’s systems and, yeah,

Nasir and Matt discuss the FTC's precedent decision to go after a Kickstarter campaign that is alleged to have taken backers' money. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: Matthew Staub joining us once again with nice covered facial hair, I would like to add for the record. MATT: Actually, the last time you said that – or I think probably the only other time you said that – we recorded and then I just hated it afterwards and immediately shaved. It’s not going to happen today but I just remembered that happened last time because you made that comment and then I don’t know if the episodes were even uploaded yet. NASIR: Probably not. So, what are we covering today? It seems like, I mean, this is a common issue of ours – crowdfunding – but at least some good news coming from this issue. I mean, usually, we’re pretty critical of what’s going on. So, what happened this week? MATT: Well, it’s good in one sense and it’s not necessarily bad. I guess it’s kind of bad as well so we’ll get to that. But it’s really the first of its kind as far as I’ve seen. The FTC is stepping in over one of these crowdfunding projects and I believe this one was done on Kickstarter. It is a board game that combines Monopoly and the science-fiction of H.P. Lovecraft – which I’m not familiar with that, I don’t know if you are. NASIR: I have no idea what you just said. I just heard Monopoly. MATT: Yeah, I think everyone knows what Monopoly is. NASIR: It just seems like a version of Monopoly which frankly is not that original. It seems you can pretty much buy any kind of Monopoly version and I also noticed that, by the way, it doesn’t look like they got permission to use the Monopoly trademark or anything. I don’t know. I mean, I’m looking at the game now – the board game – it just looks like a Monopoly board game with different names. MATT: Oh, I’ll get to that, but let me finish off the back story here. So, he puts his project up on Kickstarter and it actually was really, really successful. I think it raised 350 percent of its goal – a little under $123,000 for this project which, back in 2012, that’s pretty serious raise for a Kickstarter project. NASIR: Let’s see. 1,246 backers, that’s not too shabby. MATT: So, yeah, very successful. But what happened, of course, was no one got the actual game and you said the thing about Monopoly – the trademark infringement – and that was one of his excuses, saying he ran into legal problems. NASIR: Oh, really? Interesting. MATT: One of which if the company owns the rights to Monopoly and things like that. but what was found out after the fact was he was actually – I say “he,” I think it was all one guy who was doing this even though there might be other people. NASIR: The back story does refer to other people that were helping but they deny any knowledge of what happened so they may have just been kind of on the side of things – maybe some designers here and there. MATT: Yeah. And so, it looks like some things might have been used to develop the game – who knows? But he also was found that he was essentially taking the money from the Kickstarter campaign and using it on personal expenses. I think it talked about paying his rent. NASIR: Did they actually find out that’s the case? Because I’m seeing some comments that people are actually saying that but I don’t know if they approved it yet, did they? But $100,000 is not that much money to create an entire board game. Take away the legal issues for a moment, right? Just $100,000 itself, that can go pretty quick in starting any business, let alone it’s looks like they have pieces that are pretty detailed and so you have to create the moulds and get that done and mass produce and then you have to ship and let’s say you have 1,000 or so backers, they paid about $100 each and so, you know,

Nasir and Matt discuss why Popeye's Chicken fired a pregnant employee that was the victim of an armed robbery. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist to that news. My name’s Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: Let’s see. I have never been to a Popeye’s. This is a confession, all right? This is a confessional podcast. It’s the first thing I want to confess. I’ve never been to a Popeye’s. MATT: Yeah, the real confession’s going to come later on in the episode when you confess to this armed robbery that took place. But, yeah, I don’t believe I’ve ever been to a Popeye’s either. I know they have them in the Midwest because I know they have them in Indianapolis because I’ve definitely seen them. NASIR: No, I thought they had them in San Diego, no? MATT: Well, I’m just saying, for you and I, growing up… NASIR: Oh, growing up, no. MATT: Yeah, but they definitely have them in California – well, at least they have commercials for them in California because I still see those even though, when I lived up in Northern California, they used to have CiCi’s Pizza commercials, but there’s no CiCi’s Pizzas anywhere close in the area so I never understood that sort of advertising. NASIR: It was like Sonic. I mean, Sonic used to advertise in San Diego but the nearest drive used to be far away. Now, they have closer ones. MATT: Yeah, there’s one really close to where I live now that’s pretty new. Just like in the middle of a spot that you wouldn’t see a Sonic, typically. NASIR: I guess there are three Popeye’s in San Diego, in case you’re wondering. There’s plenty of Popeye’s around here in Houston. I think it started in Louisiana. MATT: I would say probably after KFC and maybe Church’s Chicken – I don’t know if that’s popular or not but it’s got to be up there in terms of most locations. I don’t know. It’s not my ranking of most locations because that’s an objective thing. All right. I’m just going to get into the story here before this gets too out of hand. NASIR: Once again, I’m really hungry now. You made me hungry. I feel like we should just stop the podcast and eat first. MATT: It’s too early for me here for fried chicken. Basically, what happened was this. There was a woman that was running – or not running, she was at the counter at Popeye’s. NASIR: She was a manager. MATT: She was a manager, okay. And an armed robber came in – not something that you see on a day-to-day basis at fast food places. I can’t imagine there’s too much money in those drawers but I guess it’s worth it. And so, armed robber came in, stole nearly $400 if that’s a significant amount of money. But, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that much at all for a robbery. NASIR: Worth armed robbery? Probably not. MATT: Yeah, with an armed robbery, not probably worth it. But, anyways, this person came in stole the money and left. After the fact, the Popeye’s said, “Hey, you need to reimburse us for this money,” to the woman that was managing the store and she said, “Well…” NASIR: She said, “No.” MATT: Oh, I should also point out that she’s pregnant, correct? That’s another thing. NASIR: Yeah, because that definitely added to the headlines – you know, “pregnant mother fired.” MATT: Yeah. So, they request her to pay this money. I think they requested it pretty soon after the fact, too. She was saying, “I’m still kind of recovering from this armed robbery situation so it’s a little bit too soon and I’m also not going to pay the money. It was a robbery. You know, that’s not on me.” Of course, they did the logical thing and fired her. This was in Texas. Of course, you fire a pregnant woman who was – I don’t want to say the “victim” – I guess kind of the victim of an armed robbery or at least was there and had a gun pointed at her. The video shows it. I mean, whether the gun was loaded doesn’t matter. If someone points a gun at you, it’s pretty significant.

The guys discuss why the Blackfish documentary may have led to a class action lawsuit against SeaWorld for fraud. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our Legally Sound Smart Business podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: Hope you guys had a good weekend and are ready for probably the most important news story that you’ll be hearing today. MATT: In your time, when you lived in San Diego, you had the SeaWorld unlimited pass every single year. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: I think you bought multiple passes just because you wanted to lay out on the seats and take up multiple spots. NASIR: I realize you’re joking now but, one year, we had passes because my wife’ nephew was in town and he loved going there. We went there and – I don’t know – to me, it was one of the most depressing places on earth, you know, as opposed to Disneyworld which is supposed to be the happiest. MATT: There’s one in Florida and one in San Diego, is that right? NASIR: No, I think there’s more, actually, than that. MATT: In the US. NASIR: Yeah, I think there’s more in the US, too. I think there’s one in San Antonio. MATT: Oh, is there? NASIR: Yeah. Yeah, I think the two main ones are Florida and San Diego though. MATT: Okay. Yeah, because I’ve never been to the one in San Diego. I’ve driven by it a bunch of times. I’ve been to the one in Florida a long time ago. Yeah, I’m not the avid fan like you. NASIR: No, okay. Actually, they have three. They have one in Orlando, San Antonio, and San Diego. MATT: Okay. NASIR: So, I guess those are the three we named. MATT: Yeah. So, the firm almost covers all of those states. Maybe we can be part of this lawsuits that’s going on. NASIR: Exactly. MATT: Well, I guess, just to give a back story, I don’t know, I assume… have you seen the Blackfish documentary? NASIR: I haven’t so it is kind of hard for me to be so opinionated. I am pretty opinionated about it but I don’t think I have a lot of facts that maybe that movie may actually demonstrate to back that up. MATT: Yeah, I’ve seen it. It’s a pretty big piece against SeaWorld and just essentially the treatment of the animals there. If you think about it, who knows how much of that is true. If you think about it, just look at the size of the animals and look at the size of the tanks that they’re being held in and it kind of makes sense. Obviously, it would be in terms of size to be in the ocean and things like that. But the Blackfish documentary gained a lot of publicity, got a lot of traction. A lot of people were watching it and realizing that they don’t like SeaWorld anymore. I guess it never dawned on them previously. NASIR: All of a sudden, yeah. MATT: Yeah, it’s like, “Yeah, now that I think about it, I really don’t like this thing.” That was a huge thing that’s happened over the last couple of years and I know recently – I don’t know how recent or how long ago this has been going on but – I’ve seen commercials that SeaWorld has put out essentially saying that some of the things in that documentary or these allegations are not true. I don’t know the specifics. NASIR: I just saw the commercial this morning, in fact. They were promoting the hashtag #askseaworld and #askseaworld.com and making some statements. For example, they were saying how studies have shown that the animals in captivity in our facilities live as long as others outside in the wild which is an exact opposite allegation to what I think other people are saying. But what’s interesting, they use this #askseaworld and, of course, it backfires on them online. You know, I read some of the comments and you mentioned the tank size. One of the comments was or one of the questions is, “Why is your parking lot ten times bigger than the sizes of your tanks?” So, I thought that was pretty funny. MATT: Yeah. Obviously, they’re trying to do this new marketing campaign and the #askseaworld. I mean, really,

Nasir and Matt get together in San Diego and talk about outrageous non-compete agreement that Amazon had temporary employees sign. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to Legally Sound Smart Business. My name’s Nasir Pasha. This is our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. As you know, my intro is all messed up – because it’s usually perfect – only because Matt and I are recording in the same room in sunny San Diego on top of the Symphony Towers at the University Club. MATT: Yes, and a longer table than before. NASIR: Yeah, a nice and long boardroom. I’m looking out towards the east, towards Balboa Park area, kind of. MATT: I’m just looking at the wall for whatever reason. NASIR: Well, yeah, well, you’re in San Diego so you get to have the views all the time. I need to let it sink in a little bit. MATT: That’s true. NASIR: It’s been a while. MATT: I can see Petco Park, a plane, Coronado Bridge, businesses. NASIR: Legally sound smart businesses? By the way, what did you think about pashalaw.pizza? MATT: You said that to me. I didn’t think it was a real thing. NASIR: It’s real. MATT: Hold on. NASIR: I thought you were just joking as if you didn’t think it was real. No, it’s real. MATT: Uh, man, this is actually pretty funny. NASIR: It’s a good time to talk about. All these top-level domain names are still coming out. I love it. Pretty much pick a noun and it’s available or it’s going to be available soon. MATT: Ah, and this just links to all the podcasts that we’ve had that have mentioned, have a tag of pizza? NASIR: Yeah, pretty much. MATT: Actually way less than I expected. NASIR: I was going to do a link that just searches “pizza” but then that would have been way too many because, for example, this one, just by saying “pizza,” now is on that list because of our transcript. MATT: Oh, okay. I was going to say that makes sense because I know it’s definitely been… NASIR: Actually, we’ll change that. MATT: The four that are on here are all titled with “pizza” in the title so I guess that’s why. NASIR: Yeah. In fact, actually, I’m going to just change it now as we’re talking. MATT: This photo is so funny. This pizza looks pretty good, too. NASIR: It’s the Pasha Law brand. By the way, it does search all pizza anyway. MATT: Does it? NASIR: Yeah. MATT: Okay. NASIR: All right. Everyone enjoy that. And that’s our show! MATT: I really thought you were joking this whole time. Can’t even go on, but we’re going to have to go on because we have a pretty interesting topic for today. We’ve talked about… Actually, I think Amazon was maybe one of the first companies we’ve… NASIR: Oh, someone’s breaking in. Someone almost broke into our podcast, probably a fan. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: I appreciate you guys listening in but, you know, you have to give us space to record. MATT: Take the unruly fans outside – same unruliness that former employees of Amazon are going through with this non-compete that they’ve had to sign off on some of them to get severance pay. Also, that’s temporary workers, nonetheless. So, basically, you know the deal with Amazon, they sell anything and everything online, they have people that work for them in the warehouse and take the products and put them in boxes and, you know, make sure they go to the right people. A lot of these are seasonal jobs – around Christmas time’s big, that’s probably the most seasonal one. But they’re having some of these employees – maybe even all of them – sign this 18-month non-compete agreement which, all right, that’s ridiculous right off the bat. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: What’s it preventing them from doing? Amazon bars their former employees from working for companies with products or services that compete with Amazon’s. So, that’s pretty much as broad as you can get. Just looking at the words, it’s broad, but knowing what Amazon does, it’s so overly broad. I can’t imagine any court upholding this sort of – not even in...

Nasir and Matt cap off the week by discussing how AT&T's legal counsel failed to appeal a decision and the costly consequences that resulted. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist to the podcast that we record, and my name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. Hey, I had something, I thought you would think this is funny. This is a good start to Friday. I saw this commercial. NASIR: I’m already laughing. MATT: I saw this commercial last night. It’s not LegalZoom, but it’s something like that. I forget the company, incorporation.com or something. Good domain. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: It’s like cheap filings for incorporating businesses and their quote in here was, “Incorporating can be the difference between making a fortune and losing everything.” That doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s like, well, if you incorporate, you’ll become rich. But, if you don’t, you’re going to lose everything. It’s like, incorporating is not going to depend on the success of your business. NASIR: No, that’s all you need to do. It’s like, “Yup! I’m incorporated!” No, but it’s true. You know, businesses in general – or I should say “business owners and entrepreneurs” – kind of put this, especially for the first time that they’ve formed an entity, it’s almost like this unattainable, this kind of, like, prestigious thing to incorporate and it kind of is because, you know, it’s the same thing of putting your shingle out for the first time and entering into that business lease and basically making a commitment to your business so I understand that. But then, that kind of catchphrase is kind of exploiting that kind of sentiment, for sure. MATT: It can make the difference between making a fortune and losing everything. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: Even if you don’t have a good business model. NASIR: Yeah. At the end, entity forming is – I guess, from a lawyer’s perspective – it’s different. But, even those business owners that have been in business for a while, it’s a formality. It’s just something that you have to go through. In a sense, if you think about it from a legal perspective, it’s almost a joke. Like, just because I file this piece of paper now, I have limited liability and what’s up with that, you know? And, the day before, I did not. It’s kind of funny. Well, that’s how the law works and that’s why you have to pay us a billion dollars to perform legal work for you. MATT: Especially if you’re the in-house counsel for AT&T because they might be in some trouble here. NASIR: I don’t think they’re paying their lawyer that much this time because of this. MATT: I also assume they probably – I’m going to go on a limb and say – they probably have more than one lawyer. NASIR: Oh, they definitely did. I think they had 18. Was it 18? Yeah, 18 lawyers and assistants who basically messed up. MATT: Oh, that’s the actual number? NASIR: Yeah. MATT: Well, yeah. So, they had this, you know, they’re probably involved in many lawsuits, some of which are frivolous but, yeah, there’s this patent infringement case and, essentially, they missed the deadline to appeal a jury verdict. So, AT&T lost this case and they were going to appeal. They had 30 days to do so and they didn’t figure it out until 51 days after and, yeah, they missed their opportunity and now they’re saying they could be on the hook for this $40M payment that resulted from this lawsuit involved with Two-Way Media, LLC. NASIR: Yeah. So, let’s break down how this exactly happened. Basically, there’s a docket notice that is sent out every time something is filed with the court. Like any kind of index of anything, it’s like a table of contents. All you see is the title or a very limited description of what the document is. If you want to read the actual order, then you just click on the link or, if it’s a state court, then you download the document or you’re notified accordingly.

Nasir and Matt discuss the allegations of American Apparel intimidating and silencing employees from complaining about the company and talk about guidelines for employers in making social media policies. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our business podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: The Staub and Pasha Brothers are here. Why is that so funny? MATT: You’ve never mentioned that ever. That’s kind of funny. NASIR: I don’t know. I was just trying to think, like, what are we? The duo? The Staub-Pasha duo? MATT: The duo, yeah, I guess. NASIR: Yeah, I guess that makes more sense. MATT: Not to get too far off track but you know what I’ve always found was really weird, and you might not have ever even seen this, the commercial for State Farm – I think it’s State Farm – one of the insurance companies. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: Do you know who Chris Paul is? He’s a basketball player? No? Okay. NASIR: I have no idea. MATT: It wasn’t a question to the listeners; it was a question to you. He’s a player in the NBA and the whole thing is Chris Paul and Cliff Paul were separate. They’re twins and they’re separated at birth. It’s Chris Paul wearing glasses, you know. NASIR: Oh, okay, yeah. MATT: It’s this whole thing, it’s like, oh, they were separated at birth and they were adopted by different families and they’ve lived different lifestyles and then they meet each other or something. I don’t understand why they have the same last name if they were both adopted through different families. NASIR: But, wait, are they really twin brothers? MATT: No, it’s fake. It’s him and then him wearing glasses, basically. NASIR: So, even their fake story doesn’t make sense because why would they have the same last name? MATT: Exactly. NASIR: Sometimes, you know, it’s not abnormal for the adoptive child to keep their own name, too. Perhaps that’s what it is, Matt, since you think you’re so clever. MATT: For both of them? NASIR: Yeah, both. MATT: The odds of that happening. NASIR: Maybe that was the condition of the adoption. MATT: I guess, but they were… NASIR: I actually did take a course in Columbus Ohio on adoption law, very interesting. MATT: Oh, I bet. NASIR: If anyone needs an adoption, don’t contact me just because I’ve taken a course. It doesn’t mean anything. MATT: Well, I don’t have a good lead-in for this. NASIR: Yeah, what’s your transition here? MATT: Maybe we’ll adopt this story or something. I don’t know. We’re dealing with American Apparel which, I believe, is a nationwide store. NASIR: I’ve heard of it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one. MATT: I went there once and I bought a shirt but it’s very slim-fitting – not my thing. NASIR: Maybe you should lose weight? MATT: Yeah, that’s true. Well, maybe that’s why these employees that work for them are upset with all their slim-fitting close, that’s probably not even all slim-fitting either but whatever. Anyway, basically, what American Apparel is in the news for is that employees are upset with the company and that happens all the time but American Apparel is taking it a step further and there’s been two complaints filed in the last, as of today, when we’re recording it’s been the last couple of days, but it’ll be a week by the time this comes out. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: But it’s saying that American Apparel is allegedly intimidating the employees and trying silencing tactics, preventing these employees from discussing their transgressions, I guess. You know, some of these employees have met off-site after work hours and have just been, you know, kind of complaining about things there, and American Apparel actually sent, one of the people said, they were accosted and interrogated. But the company sent security to this off-site meeting of people gathering and, according to the complainants, intimidating them and telling them to be quiet about voicing their complai...

Nasir and Matt end the week by discussing the importance of securing the necessary licenses for your business and how operating without a license can ruin yourbusiness. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist like a little lemon at the end of a story. And my name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: I’m all business today. Last Friday, I went on a rant that lasted probably twenty minutes. MATT: That’s true. NASIR: And the feedback has been that that was too long. So, I was like, “Okay. Now we have to get more serious. This is all about business and the law, and we can’t make one joke,” because people don’t have a sense of humor, apparently. So, this is now serious. MATT: This will be like a semi-rant for me because of the topic we talked about or we’re talking about today. NASIR: Perfect. MATT: We’re going to deal with licenses, but not the licensing we’ve talked about in the past. This is the actual license that you need to sell your product or conduct your services – more so services. I’ll start with my semi-rant. So, I do some estate planning from time to time and there’s people out there that are doing estate planning that aren’t estate planning attorneys and I don’t really understand how it’s done because there’s a thing called the “unauthorized practice of law” and, if you’re not a licensed attorney, you can’t practice law. So, some people are out there advertising themselves as a certified estate planner or something along those lines, and I don’t even if know if that’s… like, I can come up with my own certification system and make someone certified in something, but that doesn’t really mean anything other than it’s a certification that I made up, and I feel like that’s what these people get into. NASIR: Oh, and you’re right because these guys – guys or gals – they actually produce forms, don’t they? I mean, they have these templates and so forth and trust and estate planning. I mean, that can be just a mess if they make a mistake, you know? MATT: Yeah. Well, I’m not talking about LegalZoom or anything like that. NASIR: No, no, no, I know. No, I’m talking about – not to pick on any particular industry but, you know, - when you have insurance agents that relate to a lot of estate planning, they sometimes can fall into that trap. But it’s not only estate planning. I mean, from a legal basis, there’s also immigration law and family law for whatever reason. Like, if you go on Craigslist, you can find a bunch of people that are not attorneys advertising these services for cheap and, of course, you know, you get what you pay more. but the main problem is that they’re not regulated and so they don’t really have any – besides, you know, getting maybe a bad customer that’s upset – they don’t really have any consequence too if they mess up. You know, what happens if they mess up? What are you going to do? MATT: Yeah, exactly. That’s a reason that you – not just in law but in any area where there’s some sort of licensing – you go with people that have a license because, if there is an issue, that’s something you can go after. So, there’s a couple of examples that we have and the one here is kind of interesting. This was actually a Supreme Court case, right? Yeah. NASIR: I think it’s a state Supreme Court though, right? MATT: US Supreme Court, six to three decision. A business that was selling teeth whitening services, whether you need to have a license. It seems like a stretch but… NASIR: Oh, I see. This was actually an FTC lawsuit against the North Carolina State Board of Dentistry. MATT: Oh, okay. That’s what it was. So, the Supreme Court did rule six to three that the North Carolina State Board acted illegally by excluding the competing businesses from offering teeth whitening services which, I mean, I never would have even thought about that, really. It never would have crossed my mind that that’s considered den...

Nasir and Matt discuss the bankruptcy auction of Radio Shack and why the intangible assets are being sold separately from the tangible assets. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our business law podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt— NASIR: The co-host of the show and… MATT: And I’m— NASIR: We have another co-host as well. MATT: Gosh. NASIR: And you are… MATT: Matt Staub. NASIR: Oh, Matt Staub, that’s right. MATT: You’re in like a pitch black environment so I can’t see when you’re speaking. Recording in darkness. NASIR: I’m sorry. MATT: You’d think we would have gotten it down by now, but I guess not, never will. NASIR: Someday, we’ll be jiving together, working with each other well. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: Someday. MATT: So, I feel like I just talked about this on the podcast so forgive me, listeners, if I did. But the spot that I usually go to to fill up my gas is right across the street from a RadioShack and I think it’s pretty funny because I thought all the RadioShacks were shut down and that’s, I guess, what we’re talking about today and, regardless of whether the store is doing well – which it isn’t – I recognize the name is a very important name and that’s kind of what’s going on in this bankruptcy auction. They’re segregating the company name and intellectual property. Are they going to sell it off separately from everything else? Stuff like the store leases, et cetera. They expect to get $20 million for it – which, you know, at its prime, RadioShack was worth well over that. But, you know, after they sell that name and the IP, I guess you have your inventory but it’s probably a pretty undesirable leftover of assets, especially those leases. NASIR: Yeah. Let’s say, first of all, the bids start at $20 million, right? So, let’s say that you’re a company and you buy RadioShack, the name, for $20 million plus, what are you going to do with that thing? I mean, that’s going to be hard to get your money back, I feel. MATT: Commercial lease is expensive. That’s the way it is and these RadioShacks are going to be fairly good-sized stores, you know. It’s a lot of… NASIR: Hold on. The name RadioShack is being sold for $20 million. There’s about 1,100 RadioShack leases that are put on sale which seems strange, right? Okay. How can you sell a lease? But, basically, they’re selling the right to assume the lease because that’s a lot, you know, a thousand other leases. That’s a lot of property and being able to get in there by getting that lease assumed might be a good location and so forth. MATT: Oh, okay. NASIR: And they may have negotiated some pretty good leases. See, it’s actually separate. MATT: Oh, sorry. I heard you talking about something. I just assumed you were talking about the leases. NASIR: Oh. Actually, I assume the same thing. Every time you talk, I just assume you’re talking about leases. MATT: So, this is a pretty interesting arrangement. We’ve definitely talked about this before how, when you purchase a business, there’s different ways you can do it. I mean, you can purchase – what is it? Is RadioShack a corporation, I would guess? NASIR: It’s a corp, Delaware. MATT: You know, you can purchase the stock, you can purchase the assets. There’s different ways of going. When you buy a “business,” there’s different ways of going about it. So, regardless of whether there are value in some of these spaces that they’ve leased out, I mean, I think RadioShack does say, “Hey, you know, our value is in this name,” and, rolling back to my story, you know, I agree with it. I saw the name RadioShack and it still means something to me. Like, I know what that is. I mean, I would never probably go there because I would shop online. But it’s not a shock to people that brand names can have significant value. NASIR: See, that’s what’s weird is that, once someone buys that name, they won’t be RadioShack.

The guys finish off the week by discussing the sweepstakes being conducted by Domino's and how a franchisee can deviate from the franchise model. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our business law podcast where we cover business in the news and answer some of your business legal questions. Oh, wait. We don’t do that anymore. MATT: You’ve got a nice Friday prank. NASIR: No, but we do add our legal twist to some of those business law stories that we do cover. But you can send us in some of your topic ideas that can be in the form of a question at ask@legallysoundsmartbusiness.com. MATT: Yeah. So, on Monday, we had all that construction that you were recording, and they’ve still been working four days straight, banging away on whatever they’re doing. NASIR: Even after the cease and desist. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: Wait. Wait a minute. Who’s talking? Who is that? MATT: Oh, yeah. I’m Matt Staub. Did you say your name? NASIR: Who am I? Oh, yeah. My name’s Nasir Pasha. MATT: Ah. NASIR: Goofy start there. Let’s get serious. Actually, before we get to our topic, I just realized, I’m glad I’m in a goofy mood because yesterday – actually, the day before – I was very upset and annoyed at something. I wanted to share with you because I wanted to get your opinion on it. MATT: Okay. NASIR: I wish it was related to our topic. It’s kind of related. Well, I’ll tell you what the story is and I’ll tell you what kind of lessons I learned from it and I kind of related to it. So, I’m moving offices and I was going to my old office and I was just picking up a couple of things and it was one of these office buildings that has reserved spots. You know, I literally thought I was going to be there for a couple of minutes. So, I went in there, parked in a reserved spot that wasn’t mine. Okay. Number one, I am totally wrong and that I messed up in that respect, okay? Went up the elevator, went to the office, and I got a phone call. Ended up being two hours later so, you know, the maintenance guys come by and they’re like, “Hey, do you have this such and such car?” or whatever, and I’m like, “Yeah.” They’re like, “Oh, you’re parked in a reserved spot.” I’m like, “Yeah, I know, I meant to leave.” So, I packed up my stuff, I go down there. I go down there and there is this small little Boxster Porsche parked right behind me, blocking me in – not only blocking me in but literally touching the back bumper of my new car. I’m like, “Okay. I’m very upset,” but then, you know, I started thinking, like, “Okay.” I’m trying to put myself in their shoes. Like, I did park in their spot, but then again, there’s like ten other reserved spots right next-door or right next to it that they could have parked in. It wasn’t even that great of a spot so I was thinking, maybe other people park there a lot and so that’s why he just had it or something. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: You know, I’m looking around; I’m taking it out on these guys that are right next-door and trying to figure out who it is. Long story short, maintenance told him to move the car but he wouldn’t. He wanted to talk to me or whatever. You know, I went up to the office that he was in. He ended up being a doctor which may not surprise some people. I couldn’t find him. I gave him my card and, you know, I was a little annoyed, but I was trying to be as patient as possible. And then, I went down back to my car and then I see this guy in scrubs – not walking towards me but kind of walking past me and kind of avoiding eye contact – and I’m trying to figure out, “Is this the guy?” or whatever. I try to talk to him and he ignored me. I’m like, “Okay. Obviously, you’re very upset.” He’s getting into his car right at this point. He reverses back quickly, screeching his tires and speeds off out of the parking garage. And then, I’m just looking. There is a scratch but it’s very minimal, but I was just thinking, like, a lot of times, clients come to me and they get into a position where they’ve been...

Nasir and Matt start the week by explaining how a business can protect its social media accounts and what to do when an employee leaves who has access to social media accounts. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our business law podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist for your listening benefit. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: And we have some construction next-door. I don’t know, we should do something about that, Matt. It’s getting in the way of our podcast. MATT: Yeah, I know. I recommended the cease and desist letter but I guess they haven’t responded to it yet. NASIR: Yeah, when is that going to get there? Well, at least we should mail it out today. See how that goes. MATT: Mail out, yeah. It seems like it’d be kind of counterproductive mailing it out. It’s right next-door so you would have to go somewhere to mail it and then they would deliver it right next to the spot where you’re located. NASIR: I would pass by their door on the way to the post office. MATT: Yeah, that happens sometimes. I’ve actually thought about that before and I’ve mailed things out in the same, like, really close to where my office is but you have to mail it out. So, it’s just kind of weird in that sense. NASIR: I don’t know if it’s a myth but isn’t there some kind of federal law that prohibits you from actually delivering mail into a federal mailbox receptacle of someone’s home? MATT: Yes, I got in trouble for that in high school. My friend and I, we went around to a neighbourhood and we had to deliver flyers for the pizza place that we were working at. We were supposed to go up to every door and put it on the door. I forget exactly where we were supposed to do it. But then, the driveways are really long so we just got tired of it so we just started to… NASIR: Put it in the post box, right? MATT: Yeah, we started putting it in people’s mailboxes and then the business got a call saying that we can’t do that because it’s against the law. NASIR: Almost got arrested. That’s your big brush with the law, right? MATT: Yeah, actually got charged with 80 counts of a federal crime, but that’s fine. NASIR: Mail fraud. MATT: Pretty serious. NASIR: “This wasn’t delivered by my postman! This is from a pizza place down the road.” MATT: It did work, though. We got a lot of business from that neighbourhood that week. So, pretty good overall, positive experience for the company. NASIR: Well, I don’t know. In California and elsewhere in urban places, it seems like mailboxes are kind of going to the wayside now. MATT: Oh, yeah. NASIR: They all have, like, central facilities where you have to go walk down the street and pick it up now and things like that. MATT: Yeah, it’s definitely shifting. But I think that’s in part because of the presence of online ways to do things. NASIR: That’s a great transition, yeah. MATT: It wasn’t even purposeful with me telling that story how I was supposed to go delivering flyers. Nowadays, we might just use social media – well, not that pizza place because it’s closed down but, if it was still around, it wouldn’t have either because it never did anything proactive. NASIR: Wow. Ouch. MATT: If it wanted to and if it was still in existence, yeah, it could use some social media to reach its customers. So, I guess, let’s say I was in that situation and we were using social media, but I was the one in charge of all the social media accounts, like I said, I’m not an owner, I’m just an employee there, and they probably would put me in charge of social media and so it’s a conundrum for employers because you put one of your employees, maybe someone who’s even really low down on the totem pole, to be in charge of the social media accounts and then, you know, something might happen and then you’re looking at the employee leaves or there’s some dispute or whatever, you have to look at who owns these accounts. So,

Nasir and Matt close out the week by diving into the topic of trademarks to go over unintended negatives and overlooked positives related to trademark filings. Also, the Katy Perry dancing sharks! Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our business podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: And that’s the show. MATT: Happy Wednesday! NASIR: Wait. This is Friday episode. MATT: Oh, yeah. Sorry, I screwed that up. NASIR: It’s okay. MATT: I guess I’m just confused as some of these trademarks we’re going to talk about are leading to confusion. NASIR: What’s the likelihood that you’re confused? MATT: Very likely. Yeah, there you go. There’s a couple of recent stories dealing with trademarks that are, I think, some areas we haven’t talked about in the past so I was just going to kind of discuss them and the first being this beer dispute. So, there’s Lagunitas in Sierra Nevada, both in Northern California, and Lagunitas had filed a trademark for “IPA” which is a type of beer – it’s an India Pale Ale – very popular at this stage, in 2015, very well-known. If you drink beer, everybody knows what that means. It’s a term that is very, very prevalent. And so, they had trademarked the acronym IPA and I guess they had tried to enforce it against Sierra Nevada. Like I said, these are two heavy-hitters in the craft beer industry in the US. I think they are both top ten – maybe even top five – in terms of beer produced for craft breweries in the US. These are two big names that are going at it. So, Lagunitas tried to enforce or protect its trademark of “IPA” against Sierra Nevada. They tried to resolve it, it didn’t work, so they filed a lawsuit and it just completely backfired on Lagunitas. They got all this negative feedback. All these people were saying they’re never going to drink Lagunitas beer ever again which is not true. I hate when people say that, “Oh, I’m never going to do this again!” Like, the next day, you forget about it. NASIR: I say that whenever I have Yelp and Uber which are on my hitlist. MATT: Yeah. For you, it actually holds true. For most people, I don’t think it does. I don’t know if I’ve ever said that. NASIR: I’ll tell you this; I’m never drinking IPA, that’s for sure. MATT: You even said it awkwardly. NASIR: I guess it’s not as funny if people don’t know that I don’t drink at all. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: How do you say it? IPA? What do you say? IPA? MATT: You’re saying, “I’m never drinking IPA.” I think the correct way would be to say “a” – you’re never drinking a IPA. NASIR: Well, I agree. I’m not going to drink an IPA or drink any more IPA types of alcoholic beverages – IPA. MATT: Well, then you would be isolating the IPAs in general. And so, that was what the whole dispute was about. Lagunitas tried to protect this trademark that it had against Sierra Nevada who, I’m sure, produces a bunch of IPAs as well. It’s had a public backlash and now Lagunitas has since pulled its lawsuit and is no longer going to go through that route. So, I guess the moral of the story here is, even when you have some protection over your intellectual property – in this case, being the trademark’s probably going to be where it makes the most sense – it can have negative consequences to have that trademark and sometimes it can even be more of a hassle and a burden than you even want it because, in this case, Lagunitas tried to protect what it owned and it obviously got the negative PR but it’s also just a hassle having to deal with and they dropped the lawsuit. So, whatever money they, in time, dumped into it went all for nothing. NASIR: Yeah, we’ve seen these kinds of public blowbacks in different situations. The one thing that I can remember with any sort of detail, there was a Kitchen Nightmares episode with Gordon Ramsay, they did one restaurant where the local restaurant tried to trademark one local phrase that is very c...

The guys kick off the week by explaining the issues with employers requiring their employees to pay fortheir own uniforms. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist to these stories for your benefit and your benefit only – for no one else. Welcome to the program and my name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: I just wanted to make sure that we’re paying very specific attention to you, the listener, right now. I’m talking about you – the one that’s listening right now with their headphones – yeah, you, this is for you. MATT: So, this is what? Monday — well, Monday, sometime Monday, assuming you listen to it on the day it comes out. It’s nice to have someone focus on you on a Monday. So, I think our listeners are very appreciative of this nice gesture that we’re doing for them and I think it’s going to be a good week. If you just listen to this, the Farmers Insurance Open has ended, assuming there hasn’t been another fog delay like there was on Thursday and it got pushed to Monday. NASIR: Didn’t that happen last year too? Or two years ago? MATT: I know this because I went on the Saturday two years ago. NASIR: Yeah, we both went. MATT: Oh, yeah, we did. There was a rain delay. Like, a couple of people got on the course and that was it. They had to push the last day till Monday so it threw everybody off. NASIR: I don’t know if you went with us that time. Remember Chris Merrill? MATT: Yeah. NASIR: Was with us from KOGO? Good times in San Diego. MATT: Well, I think what happened was you and I went with separate groups and we tried to meet up and then I think you just ended up leaving because of the rain. NASIR: Yeah, I think I stole Tiger Woods’ ball and ran away or something. I can’t remember. MATT: Yeah. Well, he’s out. He withdrew after twelve holes or something yesterday because he’s hurt. NASIR: That’s pretty much my golfing game in a sentence. MATT: All right. Well, what do we have today? I think we have something pretty interesting for people. NASIR: That’s new. MATT: Especially if they are on their way to work and wearing a uniform because we’re going to talk about employees that have to pay for their uniforms. It’s an interesting thing. Have you ever – well, I guess (1) have you ever had a job where you’ve had to wear a uniform? If not, then you don’t answer the question but (2) like, I’ve had plenty of different uniforms of businesses, I’ve never had to actually pay for anything in the past. NASIR: The only real job that I could, in theory, would have had a uniform was I sold cellular phones for T-Mobile for a little during law school, but I don’t even think they cared what you wore. But, of course, you’d want to look somewhat presentable to the potential customers. MATT: Yeah, that’s a good point. NASIR: That’s pretty much it. No uniforms on my end. MATT: Is that when you had to dress up as a giant phone? NASIR: Yeah, that was my uniform. I had some balloons as well and hold a sign. MATT: Sign spinning. Well, in California, if the employer requires the employee to wear a uniform, the employer has to pay the cost of the uniform. I mean, in California, it’s pretty straight-forward and I guess I need to define uniform so I haven’t been very good at that. It’s apparel and accessories of distinctive design and color. One of the things I had to wear one time was almost like an apron, but it wasn’t an apron – I guess it was an apron – I don’t know. That would be an example. Or all the items of flare that I didn’t have to purchase when I worked at Chachkies. NASIR: Yeah, that’s a great example, nice office space reference. So, the Department of Labor have some guidelines on, basically, if you require the employee to wear a uniform then the employer is going to have to cover the cost. But where it becomes a little more difficult is exactly where Matt mentioned is what exactly is a uniform and when does that actu...

Nasir and Mattenter Groundhog's Day by discussing the importance of trade secrets and how to best protect your intellectual property. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business legal news. And my name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: What are we doing today? A podcast again? Another episode? MATT: Yeah, we can something different if you want. NASIR: No, that’s fine. That’s cool. Podcast is cool. MATT: A lot of people think today should be a national holiday but it hasn’t really gained too much traction. NASIR: Because of Groundhog Day? Is that February 2nd? MATT: Is it Groundhog’s Day? Oh, maybe it is. Oh, no, I was thinking the day after the Superbowl. NASIR: I was thinking, yeah, February 2nd is Groundhog Day, I believe. MATT: Is it? NASIR: I recall. MATT: Oh. NASIR: Oh, yeah, you’re saying because of the Superbowl. MATT: Well, this is the day after. So, this is the day that everyone thinks should be a national holiday. I never really understood that because I don’t see how it’s different. It’s just one football game and, on a lot of Sundays, I mean, I guess it’s the biggest game of the year but, still, it’s one game. All you have to do is watch it and then that’s it. NASIR: I was hoping maybe Groundhog Day would be a national holiday. So, that may be technically it would be the case, but it doesn’t look like it’s a… I don’t know what the definition is – at least banks aren’t closed, I don’t believe. MATT: So, wait, is today Groundhog’s Day? NASIR: Yeah, February 2nd. MATT: Okay. We should just do the intro, like, ten times in a row and have that be the episode. Just loop it. NASIR: I love that movie. It’s a great, great cult classic. I guess it would be a cult classic because I don’t think it was like, when it came out in the theatre, it wasn’t that great of a movie or it didn’t do that well. MATT: Yeah, I mean, you’ve got a big star in his prime. NASIR: True. MATT: But there was a lot of movies. It was a weird time for movies where you could get a lot of big names and they might not translate into big movies. I don’t know. Like, today, if Will Smith opens a movie, it’s just like a blockbuster no matter what it is. NASIR: Automatic. MATT: Well, you know, I have a secret for you and I don’t know how to protect it. It’s a trade secret, actually. NASIR: Nice. MATT: Bad intro but that’s what we’re going to talk about today – protecting your trade secrets – and I think we’ve talked about this before to some extent, haven’t we? NASIR: Yeah, definitely. It seems to come up quite a bit. MATT: The reason – I mean, well, there’s a few reasons – why we’re talking about it today but there was a recent case. We might have actually talked about this business before, too. So, it’s nClosures, and that’s obviously a lower case “n” with a capital “C” as most people would think. Well, anyways, I’m not going to bore people with the details too much of the case but, essentially, it came down to there was a breach of their, or at least nClosures believed there was a breach, of their proprietary information and it was kind of tied into their trade secrets that they have and they had this other company who is part of the lawsuit. They had a confidentiality agreement with them but the court actually determined that nClosures did not take reasonable steps to protect its information and, thus, it kind of left its trade secrets out there in the open and its confidentiality agreement was not enforceable as a result of that. nClosures did not require other employees or engineers to sign additional agreements, and this is with the other party that’s part of the lawsuit. So, basically, what it’s saying is it didn’t take the right steps to protect its trade secrets as it should have. And, even though it had this confidentiality agreement, we haven’t seen what that actually says so who knows how good or bad it was. But, despite this confidentiality agreement,

The guys talk about the different methods to value a startup, particularly when the business is pre-revenue. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our little legal twist to it like a little lemon at the end of a… what do you add lemons to? Fish and…? MATT: Uh… NASIR: Anyway, my name’s Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: I think most of the time you add lemons to a podcast. That’s the only thing I can think of. MATT: Oh, you’re talking about the end, after something’s already made. So, that would be very common in a fish and chips setting. NASIR: Oh, yeah, fish and chips. MATT: I thought you were talking about something like a lemon peel garnish type situation. NASIR: No, that’s way too fancy for us. We’re a fish and chips kind of podcast. So, welcome to our cooking show and food culinary arts. MATT: I’ve actually ranked my top ten things to have a twist of lemon with, food-wise. NASIR: Is one of them a podcast? MATT: Podcast is number one. NASIR: Okay. Great. MATT: But, if I did have a business, let’s say I did start a business and it was solely based on what to put a twist of lemon on at the end, but the problem was I wasn’t really making any money but I’m presenting in front of some investors and I need to value how much this business is worth, how would I go about doing that? That’s our topic for today. NASIR: Yeah, just sitting here, watching you find a way to transition it to our topic of the day is just entertainment in itself. There’s no lemon needed, in other words. Yeah. So, we’re talking about valuation today. MATT: I’m sure a lot of people have seen Shark Tank or have at least heard about Shark Tank. But, if you’ve seen an episode, you know that, at least once an episode – actually, not even once an episode – in every single one, you see they come out and the first thing they say is, “I’m offering this percent of my company for this amount of money.” So, you know, you multiply that out and that’s how you get what the entrepreneurs value their company at and there’s usually a dispute between what someone values it at and what the sharks value it at. And so, I think that’s, I would say, for those people that are on that show, that’s probably the toughest thing for them to do because, a lot of times, sometimes, the businesses have some track record or some sales or specific industry things like that, but I think, a lot of times, they’re just kind of throwing numbers out there. They’ve looked at prior episodes and prior things and just tried to take a stab at, you know, what they think the value of their company is, and sometimes they get called out, especially Mark Cuban will do that pretty frequently. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: And the one guy in the middle, was that Kevin O’Leary? I think it’s his name. He’ll always because all he cares about is the bottom-line. NASIR: Yeah, I like his approach. Well, I mean, he’s pretty harsh when it comes to valuation. He’s pretty aggressive in that respect. But you know what’s interesting about this topic – I think we should give a disclaimer because we’re not necessarily experts in business valuation. Obviously, we can give our legal perspective on this but it seems like everybody and their mother are experts on valuation. If you were reading online, it would seem that way, right? MATT: Only mothers, no fathers. NASIR: Is that the term? I don’t know. Everybody and their parents and their cousins and their brothers and sisters and sons and daughters seem to be experts in this field, and they come up with these rules like, “Oh, well, look, if you’re in your first year and you don’t have any assets, you’re a startup, automatic million-dollar valuation and then it starts from there. It goes up if you’re pre-revenue,” all this stuff. But, at the end of the day, we can talk about the different ways that people approach it but, to kind of cut to the chase, I think, at the end,

The guys discuss the recent developments in employment law for 2015 and what employers should consider when hiring new employees. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business legal news. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: And, today, we are talking about hiring employees in 2015. It seems like everyone is talking about hiring employees either for the first time or they’re expanding and I think that’s good – that’s a good sign for the economy, obviously, and maybe it’s also the new year. MATT: Yeah, and, I mean, I’m thinking it has to do with a couple of things. One, the beginning of the year. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: I would say anyone, any business owner in the last quarter of the year who was thinking of hiring people – unless it’s a seasonal thing – probably was thinking, “I’m just going to put it off until the beginning of the year and not mess with it.” NASIR: Oh, yeah. MATT: And then, two, just the economy in general has gotten better. Businesses are making more money so they can pay people to be there. So, I’m sure there’s more reasons but those are two things that come to mind and it’s definitely a good thing. Let’s see. I think I had some numbers here. So, this is from Career Builder which I guess deals with hiring people but who knows how credible this is. NASIR: It’s some blogger, you know, that just came up with some number. MATT: It’s something. NASIR: Oh, yeah, careerbuilder.com. MATT: Yeah, 36 percent of employers plan to increase their full-time permanent employee number in 2015 up from 24 percent last year. So, that’s a pretty significant jump. But it’s interesting too because we talked about, obviously, more people being hired, but in terms of – at least in California, and I think probably nationwide, too – the amount of money that needs to be spent on employees has also increased. So, it’s interesting that employees are now more expensive to have, but people are hiring more of them. So, it’s a weird dynamic where, I guess, at the end of the day, as long as, you know, you make more money than the cost of having the employee there then I guess that’s fine with the business owner. That’s how I would view it, at least. NASIR: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, we even filled out our San Diego Regional Chamber of Commerce every year. Actually, also periodically during the year, they do a survey. I just filled out mine a couple of days ago and they ask these questions – you know, “Do you plan on hiring? Do you plan on expanding?” et cetera, like that. And so, the sentiment of businesses is always really cool to kind of see where they’re heading because that’s usually a good indicator of where the economy is going or at least what people’s impression thinks it’s going. So, when you hire somebody, there’s just so many issues that are going on and I think your employees are the biggest liability of your business. And, if you’re hiring an employee for the first time, then you better learn pretty quick. I mean, there are a lot of issues to go through, even from the setup perspective. I mean, there’s lots of setup – everything from registering your EIN which you should have already, obviously, but, you know, doing things like registering with your state labor department, workers’ compensation insurance, payroll is huge. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: I’m always surprised that people actually handle their own payroll. I think it’s just silly. I mean, if you can afford an employee, you can afford to pay someone to do your payroll because it is something you do not want to mess and do incorrectly, for sure. MATT: Oh, yeah. I don’t understand how people handle that by themselves either. I mean, I have some connections with some payroll companies in San Diego. I know their pricing; it’s very reasonable. Your time’s going to be way more valuable than just paying someone a little bit of money to handle it and they actually know what they’re doing.