Podcasts about laughter it

Welcome back, fellow nerds! It's that time of the week again when we unleash the power of wisdom and nerdiness on the latest episode of Wise_N_Nerdy! Buckle up and get ready for a thrilling ride filled with laughter, insights, and a whole lot of fun! **Question of the Week:** This week, we dive into the fascinating realm of parental strictness. We want to know, on a scale of 1 to 10, just how strict were your parents? Prepare to be surprised as Joe kicks off the discussion with an unexpected high number that eventually took an intriguing twist. Meanwhile, Charles shares his personal experience, highlighting how his parents had their own unique blend of strictness and leniency. You won't want to miss this enlightening conversation that'll take you on a trip down memory lane! **Segment 1: "Can You Dig It?" - Exploring Father's Day and Gift Giving** In this electrifying segment, we start off with a tribute to all the amazing fathers out there. From heartwarming tales to hilarious anecdotes, we dig deep into the essence of Father's Day and how it ties into the broader concept of holidays and gift-giving. Brace yourself as we strike a perfect balance between controversial ideas and the needs of the people. Our goal? To deliver an engaging discussion that'll make you say, "Can you dig it?" **Segment 2: "Let Daddy Decide" - Hilarious Would You Rather Questions** Get ready for some laughs as Joe and Charles fire up the "Let Daddy Decide" segment. Armed with a popular app, they take on a series of would you rather questions that'll keep you guessing and giggling. While the boys admit it wasn't their strongest segment, the potential for amusement is still sky-high. Join us as we navigate through these humorous dilemmas and attempt to unravel the true depths of our nerdy choices. **Commercial Dance Break: Keeping the Energy High!** After a brief commercial break, we're back, and we promise you won't want to miss this segment. Prepare to laugh even harder as Joe and Charles return with even more comedic genius. Our commercial dance break will have you tapping your feet and grooving to the beats. It's the perfect moment to let loose and recharge for the second half of our thrilling podcast adventure! **Segment 3: "Daddy Tell Me a Story" - Embracing Life's Struggles** In this heartfelt segment, Charles opens up about the struggles he faced that day and reflects on the disheartening reality of people giving up on their dreams and losing hope. Join him as he pours out his thoughts while enjoying a well-deserved drink. It's a candid moment that reminds us of the importance of perseverance and supporting one another. We dive deep into the meaningful aspects of life, leaving no stone unturned. **Segment 4: "Bad Dad Joke" - Unleashing the Laughter** It's time to unleash the puns and cringe-worthy humor with everyone's favorite segment: the "Bad Dad Joke"! Brace yourself for eye-rolling and groaning as Joe presents a truly terrible joke that will have you giggling and shaking your head simultaneously. It's a moment of lightheartedness that adds an extra dose of hilarity to our podcast. **The Glorious Finale: Nerding Out!** As we approach the grand finale, we delve into the depths of nerdy obsessions. Charles shares his passion for Transformers and enlightens us on the wonders of this iconic franchise. We discuss the captivating elements that make nerdy obsessions so enthralling and dive into the vibrant world of fandom. It's a celebration of all things nerdy that'll leave you feeling inspired and eager to explore your own nerdy passions. **Ending Tagline:** Remember, fellow nerds, they may not be your biological fathers, but Joe and Charles will always be your daddies of nerdy wisdom! Join us next time for another thrilling episode filled with laughter, knowledge, and an unforgettable journey through the realms of nerd culture. https://linktr.ee/wise_N_Nerdy --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/wise-n-nerdy/message

Guests: Jordan Whicker, Ethan Severin, Cole Travis   The Ultimate Gift is a fictional story about the journey of a young man named Jason Stevens who is the spoiled, rotten grand-nephew of Red Stevens, who leaves a series of “gifts” for Jason to learn, under the guidance and tutelage of his attorney friend Theodore J. Hamilton. Each chapter is a new “gift” that Jason must learn - and, as a young man, you need to learn as well.   The Gift of Laughter “It [the gift of laughter] is the ability to look at yourself, your problems, and life in general, and just laugh. Many people live unhappy lives because they take things too seriously.”   “Comparison is the thief of joy,” is attributed to President Theodore Roosevelt and several others - and it is a great warning that unhealthy comparison to others can rob you of joy with what you have!   Laughter can be infectious, but so can negativity!   God has an incredible sense of humor - where do you think your sense of humor came from??? Check out the sense of humor displayed by Jesus in the series The Chosen - and read the Bible for yourself to read about it from the original source!   Let's not laugh at things that God is crying about…sin isn't funny, it's destructive.   The Gift of Dreams “Dreams are the essence of life–not as it is, but as it can be.”   For a Christian, dreams are the essence of life with God at the center - ripe with the potential that with God all things are possible!   “Jason, this month, I want you to begin experiencing the gift of dreams. Assume everything is possible. Make a list of all the things you would like to do and be and have in your life. Then begin to prioritize that list as you discover the ones that generate the most passion in your soul.” I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength…Phil 4:13 We should all practice this concept - God, what do YOU want me to do, how should I be spending the life that God has given me for HIS glory and purpose? The Gift of Giving “Conventional wisdom would say that the less you give, the more you have. The converse is true. The more you give, the more you have. Abundance creates the ability to give; giving creates more abundance.”   Giving can mean so much more than money - we all have time, talents, and treasure. The giving of money is only one aspect of what it means to give of yourself.  Maybe God is asking you to give the one of these that is the most difficult for you!   The Bible says a lot about money, most of it is a warning not to let money become a god or idol in your life. Giving is a direct indication about our worship. What are you NOT willing to give to the Lord? T4M guys - just a reminder that Training4Manhood is a non-profit, 501(c)(3) ministry and you can make donations either via Zelle (info@training4manhood.com) or by visiting the Training4Manhood website. Huge thank you to Jared Wood for allowing T4M to use his music in our intro and outro selections.

Laughter is a powerful tool that can have long-term positive effects on your health. It can improve your mood, relieve pain and infuse you with hope. Laughter has the power to enhance your autoimmune system and decrease the risk of heart disease. It can also reduce stress and anxiety, help with depression, lower blood pressure, and increase the production of endorphins which make you happy.Benefits of Laughter:It connects you with othersIt can smooth out differencesIt strengthens and promotes resilienceIt increases energy and helps your body relaxI can refresh your perspectiveIt increases productivityHere is a link to the articleHere are some links to some great laughs!Michael JrSmall FryTim HawkinsDr. Dennis SwanbergChonda PierceKen DavisAnita RenfroeContact John Thurman.  john@johnthurman.info or call 505-343-2011

Series: Be'erot, Love & Relationship with God. Synopsis: A workshop on lack and fulfillment of the need.   Episode Transcript (Addressing Mary Rose) You're wondering when a person becomes haughty and takes up all the space, so to speak, there's no room, no need for another. There's only me. Or I'm perfect—aren't any parts in me that need perfection, that need to be spoken to , and raised up, or fixed, etc. that level of haugtiness, you're wondering, does that erase the malchut, denying the malchut. I want to tell you that you're on to something. One of the primary themes in Kabbalah is how separate the malchut is from the rest of the expression of G-d—the malchut ultimately being our consciousness of receiving His goodness and integrating and organizing it into a spoken and expressed reality which is what we live. So consistently through Kabbalah, the question of the consciousness of the Divine which becomes embodied; you see yourself as separate. How much of knowing yourself as separate denies your being at one with G-d? Can you exist one at the same time as an atah who is spoken to, as an atah and can speak to G-d as an atah, and one at the same time know that you are also a very part of Him and living in His life. Well, not even living in His life, but there is nothing other than Him. So that question, the more we split off into consciousness of separateness, without being aware that it is He Who is giving us life, that's called in Kabbalah kitzut b'nitiot. Cutting off the saplings from their source. The Maharal explains… that the consciousness has to be like a root and a tree and we're like the tree growing up out of the root. So the upper part of the tree, lives its own life it's got its leaves, and they're turning toward the sun, and they're turning away from the sun, and it's doing all kinds of things and they're making food, etc. But as long as it's made awareness that it's a tree that is growing out of the root so then it has not become separate and there is not a kitzutz b'netiot. And the Kabbalistic language the malchut has not become a separate consciousness losing its awareness of being one with its root. When we've become haughty, so it's like (slaps hands) cut off, like the trunk and the branches, are like, well I have my own life. And this has tremendous indications about how we relate to our own life. To everything. Including, one of the most sign applications is our ability to forgive. Our ability to let go of resentments, which is one of the most profound blocks that we experience, rests on our ability to see that all always been is G-d, and all this is being energized by the source which is love. So then when I can see what's happening in my life, and this other person has been sent by G-d as being an expression of G-d and of G-d's love, then we are able to really forgive. But as long as you live kitzutz b'netiot, with the malchut as like, I'm one separate entity and there's one separate entity, etc. then the forgiveness becomes “it's okay, I'm willing to let go,” or whatever. No it's like mamash, been His love all the time. This the Ramchal teaches. He teaches, like that's the main thing a person needs to know. The Ramchal says how in the tzimtzum, how it's drawn is always a circle, and then there's a line that starts at the top, and goes down to the bottom. He says that the reason it goes down to the bottom, is because it's the way of G-d that He turns all evil into good. So that everything that's happened along the way, along that line, in the end feeds right back into the wholeness of G-d's life, which is to say, that it never really left that. Like, that's the only thing it could mean. When you look back you could say it was all headed right here. Now, as soon as you separate it, then you've lost that…. And the Ramban explains, that's what it means to build the golden calf,… that's what it meant to take the fruit from the tree…. (Chaya: Teaching about distance and closeness with others. There's a Geshtalt exercise it's very powerful even though it's very simple. You're standing in one place, and you have a partner that walks towards you and you experience what it's like to tell that person to stop, I mean from a distance, the other side of the room. You tell them to come as long as you feel comfortable and then tell them to stop. And all the while you have the consciousness of “What does this bring up for me to tell this person to stop? What does that feel like? Or to tell them to come towards me? What comes up?…” No talking, just you telling stop or go. Basically inviting that person as close or not close as you want to experience. For me it was a powerful experience. I'm thinking about how to do this with your partner, or thinking about a hard issue someone you had an argument with, thinking about an issue, as you're doing it, and trying it again, thinking differently. Like nice things. And notice in your body, have this person approaching. When you ask someone to come close, you're making space…When I ask her to come close, I'm giving up space. So just on that theme. ) (Sara Talia: …Looking at ourselves and thinking, are we really ready to be in relationship with others, and therefore to be in relationship with Hashem, so I've noticed that occasionally with myself, and experiencing broken trust in the past, and being hurt, and having a hard time knowing when something's real and being able to have that trust and being able to have that opening in myself for a new relationship. So, I got (inaudible) when you said that, Okay, do I feel despondent and abandoned? Do I feel abandoned by other people? Is that like a bigger picture of an aspect of Hashem that I'm struggling with or an aspect of my reality of my life that I'm blaming Him for, like Hashem, why did you do that, why did You make me go through this pain or this experience, and being able to try to figure out where to go on from there. That's a hard one.) (Someone else: Thank you for saying that) (Sara Talia laughing. “Reality check.”) …. (Chaya: I think it's been ten minutes…) It has been ten minutes. I don't know what they're planning. (We'll see what people want to do… I've noticed that doing exercises where everybody goes outside disperses the energy.) Correct. My suspicion is— (Writing.Yeah, but I want to tell you about it anyway) Well if people choose it,….   So when you hear them all saying she lo asani ishah, it's almost like a verbalization of what biologically had to occur when the baby was in embryo, there being a shift, and I should find out more about this, how this works, but maybe a chromosomal shift—maybe you can explain it? You know biology— of declaring shelo asani ishah, and the woman says, sheasani kirtzono. She's more present to reality as it is, but getting back to your question,and I don't want to take up all the time talking, although I'm like a non-stop talker once you put people in front of me (laughing)…but the other thing you pointed out, the trial of wait, I'm just an atah to the other man? I always point out to people that the prime position in chazal is that first man was an androgynous, so, so to speak, they were both experiencing that consciousness. So it's not relevant there being man and woman. And then they got split. There's no question that you're an embodiment of feminine, but that doesn't mean that you don't also share those other aspects, of that creation of an consciousness by virtue by the longing that you also in your soul root experienced, there was no other, no possibility of it… (Questions) Yeah, there is a feminine and masculine principal in the world… but I'm saying these things mix, that because you're embodied as woman that all you have is the womanly aspect. They mix around. It would be better if we could use a non-sexual language. I don't know exactly what to do, to be honest, I just talk the truths that I know, and I don't know exactly what to do to make that feel good, but these are phenomena. I think I told you in the past. I think I was telling you, Baria Schachter was taking Chinese medicine, and they were teaching him about the yin and the yang, and after this long lecture about yin and yang, and feminine and masculine, he looked at his teacher (starting to crack up) in his individual way, and he said, “So tell me, do yin and yang love each other?” (Laughter) It's like a Jewish, not Chinese question, do yin and yang love each other? Like what's the energetic root here? And when that happens, yin and yang love each other, then the question of male/female, am I on top, am I on bottom, how is this working, disappears. That's what we were talking about last year when the complaint about the moon which she introduced, kind of melts away and it becomes a realization of a mutuality of living where being giver, being taker, being recipient, being provider no longer creating hierarchy, because the experience is of one organism. So the experience of one organism, that becomes an inappropriate nomenclature. An inappropriate use of naming. (inaudible) more or less, there's one thing here. Yeah, there are two kings and one crown. Yeah, there really can be such a thing. If we had the consciousness of crown. Consciousness of crown is when everything has ended, now because a new beginning. Just to bring it back to the beginning of the shiur. Like when the end point because the beginning, that's when crown comes in. We'll have a brief biological explanation. (In the embryology, the fetus begins, if you look at the reproductive organs, begins as a urogenital sinus, which is like androgynous. And then it develops into female, into male. But the potential for each is already in the DNA. Potential for both. Yes. Because when the sperm fertilizes, the sperm has the XX or the XY, and the female, the egg, has the XX, so when it combines, either you have the XX or XY because it's the Y that comes from the male. So the potential is there, but in the development, it looks androgynous in the beginning, and then it develops into female, and into the male. ) Wow, so that picture of how man is created, is mamash how it happens to every one of us, where we're both, and then become one, choosing our way. Wow. I did hear, though, that the primary base is a female one, you're saying not so. (No, the potential is already there from the beginning. So it develops because of the DNA which is like the basic [inaudible] (that give the potential) (Chaya: But what about the fact that the ege is XX always, and the sperm is either XY or XX, so the sperm itself has this variability to it.)  Right, but the egg, is the base line, so then the sperm has to come in so to speak, and say, she lo asani ishah, or she asani kirtzono , I'll just leave things as they are. Or, shelo asani ishah, I gotta make a stand and become male. Everyone laughing) We'll put that into the siddur commentary (more laughing) with pictures! (Chaya presenting choices, the issue of lack in our lives, meditation and writing. Or going outside more embodied, and experience the teachings as an embodied experience and taking up space.) (Chaya: So there are so many thing in Rav Daniel's shiurim, what do you jump on the flesh out, and then what do you take home that impacts the rest of your day. So last week, and there are themes of it in this week, really impacted my day on a day-to-day basis. It was on the theme of lack, and the parallel of the two stories. First, the story of Adam, and how he was seeing the animals, but he decided, “I want my couple…” –kaful in Hebrew is double—so he sees the animals couple and he feels the lack of “Wow, I don't have that” and so he sees a necessary ingredient for then G-d being able to fulfill the lack. And that story paralleled the story about the rain, and about how man noticed the good of rain, and felt the lack of rain, and then how G-d gave the rain—that was G-d's plan from the get-go, to implant the lack in order that man should feel it and pray and bring it down. And that somehow, this is one of the equations of existence where G-d sets up a situation where we feel lack, in order that G-d can feel it.[1] and you know the boray nefashot prayer, that we say after we eat. Thank you G-d, You created all of these creatures with all of our lacks, and that You can fulfill them. That's what we say after we eat, because eating itself is, or hunger itself, is such an experience of lack, that we need to fulfill it. It's such a clear, visceral, embodied sense of lack that we get to experience several times a day. So that becomes a template for that prayer and that idea, it's clearly expressed there. And we can express that in all areas of our lives where we feel lack. And for me, it's very powerful, because I love feeling guilty. So if I feel lack, then I immediately feel guilty about the fact that I'm feeling lack because I'm so blessed, and everything is G-d, and how dare I feel lack, so I get all down on myself whenever I feel lack, chutzpah, so for me, I have issues with lack. On the one hand I feel it in a big way: I have jealousies, and I have desires, and on the other hand I feel really bad about the fact that I feel jealous, or about the fact that I feel like G-d's not giving me something. So it's this kind of quandary about how to experience lack, and so the beautiful things about these Torah for me was able to put it in a frame of “G-d put you in this quandary, G-d gave you this experience of feeling lack for a reason.” So you can feel it, and pray to G-d, and G-d can fulfill it, and you can have awareness G-d as the Other who fulfills your needs and G-d can awareness being that Source of chesed. And that's just part of that relationship. So it was very comforting to put it in the framework of the holy, this thing that brings up such negative feelings in my life. So I feel like we could take a moment and focus on some place where you're feeling you're lacking, you're not getting something you need, you're not getting what you want, and we're doing a little meditation on it, and then a little writing.) So the first step is to conjure up an aspect of our lives where we feel lack. And get that in our minds. Whether it's a picture thing, or mulling about it…? (Yeah, we'll do this as like a guided meditation. Yeah, in terms of evoking an experience of where you felt this lack…. ) To look at something I really want to be having, and to look at it in my mind as having been realized and feeling how much I want it? Or let's say, I'd like to be impacting shul communities. So would I imagine myself impacting a shul community, and davening differently, etc. and then feel the lack that's missing? Or would I look at myself walking into an empty shul, and having nobody there to listen? (That's juicier.) It's a lot harder. (Getting into the pain? Yeah, feeling the pain. And then take moments to pray about it. What good is it to pray without the pain?) I hear you. So we're not starting with makir b'tov, and then going into the lack. We're just emphasizing what we're missing. That's okay. (We're appreciating the lack. Some days you need makir b'tov and some days you need to feel the lack.) Guided meditation: Feet on the floor….And as you're breathing in, just invite in awareness about your feeling of great lack now. What is hurting? What are you aching about? It might help to envision the actual incident where you felt this lack. Feel into your emotions about why is it so painful to me why I don't have this. Feel the tragedy of this lack in your life. And the pathos. And once you've really feel you have this in hand, the pain of this, the lack of this, then open up your hands and pray to G-d that G-d should fulfill this need. And remind G-d that G-d is the One who created the lack that it should be filled. And when you feel like you've prayed your prayer—take as much time as you need to do this—then imagine G-d fulfilling your need. And when you're ready, you can write what it looks like in detail, what it looks like, this fulfillment, describing to a “t”, what G-d does to fulfill this need.   More teaching from Rav Daniel on our facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/ravdanielk

Kat Nantz is a Somatic Pleasure & Relationship Coach. She coaches people and couples on reconnecting with pleasure and our bodies. Jeremie and Bryde talk with Kat about relationship anarchy, implicit and explicit boundaries, and why we sometimes want to annihilate our partners. Just the Tips includes watching Mike Flannagin's movies, specifically "Midnight Mass" and "The Haunting of Hill House", and checking out the "Stuff Mom Never Told You" podcast episode, "Women's Laughter: It's No Joke".HUMAN CONNECTION THROUGH TOUCH: a class for self-care and connection, will be led on November 14th at 11:30amET on Zoom. Bring a friend or partner or relative - someone you feel comfortable exchanging some platonic touch with, and we'll do an hour of loose movement and partner work. $15pp or $25/pair (FREE for Patrons). Email turnmeonpodcast@gmail.com to get the link!Thank you endlessly to all the Patrons of the podcast at patreon.com/turnmeonpodcast. $5+ PATRONS: check out the video version of today's aftercare! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Climate Anxiety - News of sea-level changes and violent weather patterns is creating a tsunami of extreme anxiety among many Americans. Could mental health be the next causality of global warming?The Unknown Benefits of Laughter - It's well known that a good belly laugh lowers blood pressure and releases endorphins that lift one's spirit immediately. Yet laughter has other great health benefits that are unexpected. Dr. B. breaks down the hidden secrets of laughing.———Welcome to The Breakdown with Doctor B., a psychologically healing conversation with well-known psychiatrist Arthur Bregman MD.  Every week Dr. B. and host Linda Corley break down issues and problems from a mental health perspective. From the incessant stresses of the pandemic to untangling relationship problems, Dr. B's years of experience help piece together the messiest of life's problems.

How Empty is Your Nest? (Part 1) - Mixed Feelings Stirred Up by the Empty NestHow Empty is Your Nest? (Part 2) - Changing RelationshipsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Mixed Feelings Stirred up by the Empty Nest Guests:                      Barbara Rainey and Susan YatesFrom the series:       How Empty Is Your Nest? (Day 1 of 2)Air date:                     August 1, 2016  Bob: There was a moment in Susan Yates' life when, as she looked at her empty nest, she started to think, “What's my purpose anymore?” Susan: I remember the day after Libby's wedding—she was the last to marry—going up to the girls' room that they'd grown up in / that they had shared their whole life. As I stood in the room, I looked around at the walls, and there were lines where the pictures had hung. There were pieces of little scraps of paper and, as I looked at these bare walls, I noticed that the closet door was ajar.   On the floor of the closet I saw a rumpled, old, blue prom dress. It seemed out of place—it was all alone / it was not needed any more. It, in a way, was out of style. As I looked at that prom dress, I thought, “That's just how I feel.” 1:00 Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 1st. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll look today at the realities that begin to set in as the nest starts to empty out. Stay tuned.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. I'm just sitting here, doing the math. What's it been? It's been more than a decade, now, since you guys became empty nesters? Barbara: That's right. [Laughter] Are you going to— Bob: Are you still trying to figure it out? [Laughter] You're kind of silent there! Dennis: I told you— Barbara: I guess I'm a little slow on the math. [Laughter] Dennis: No; that's not so. No; I'm just trying to realize when it was when you and I finally determined we were empty nesters. [Laughter] Bob: So there was this process, you're saying? Dennis: I think there was. I think it took us two or three years to come out of—how many years of childbearing and child rearing? Barbara: I don't know—a lot. Dennis: Twenty-eight, I think. Barbara: I think so. Dennis: I think over twenty-eight years.  2:00 Barbara: I think so. It doesn't happen automatically. Dennis: No; I mean, it was— Barbara: It was a transition. Dennis: It was all “Hands on deck!” raising children. It took us awhile to get out of the mindset and to finally realize: “You know what? We can kind of enjoy each other now and focus on one another.” It hadn't been that we weren't doing that before; but when you're tending to children, there's no question—they drain you. Bob: Our listeners are obviously aware that your wife, Barbara Rainey, is joining us today. Good to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: We are going to be hearing a message that you and your friend, Susan Yates, did, talking about empty nest issues. But I need to start by saying we got a very nice note from one of our FamilyLife Today donors, who wrote to say: “I've been reading Barbara's empty nest book. I was encouraged to hear about your daughter, who rebelled, to find out that we are not alone. Barbara is so right—we just need to choose our words carefully and to pray, pray, pray. God is faithful and He cares about our children more than we do. Thank you.” 3:00 I imagine you've heard from a lot of folks, who have read the book, who have written you personally to say, “Thanks for capturing in this book what we've been living through and couldn't put words to.” Barbara: Yes; we've had great feedback from women who've read the book because they understand, by reading it, that we get it—because we've been there and we've felt those things—and we're trying to help them know that they're not alone. Dennis: When Barbara and Susan wrote the book, they didn't offer a “pie in the sky” type of picture of the empty nest. They painted it—flaws, blemishes, warts, and all—because it's a process that isn't necessarily neat and tidy as you raise children who become adults.  What this lady is referring to there, Bob, is—she just appreciates somebody being authentic and real. I just want to say to this donor / this partner in ministry:  “Thank you for being a part of this ministry.” You know, I was thinking, when you read that Bob—that David, when he went to war, had his mighty men. Bob: Right. 4:00 Dennis: Well, we have a group that supports this broadcast and the ministries of FamilyLife. They're not just mighty men—they're mighty men and mighty women.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: And they're mighty because they care about, I believe, the oldest institution in the world / the most powerful institution in the world. They're investing in a ministry that's bringing good to marriages and families and bringing hope to people in a culture that, frankly, is trying to undermine and do evil to families. I just want to say, “Thanks,” to those of you who are donors to FamilyLife—you're needed, you're appreciated, and God bless you and your legacy. Bob: Yes; I agree—“Thanks.”  Barbara, you and your co-author, Susan Yates, had an opportunity to speak to a number of women—I think it was in Dallas; right? Barbara: That's right. Bob: You spoke on the subject of the empty nest. This was a number of months ago, but we're going to give our listeners an opportunity to hear what you and Susan shared with those women.  5:00 We'll just dive right in. Here are Barbara Rainey and Susan Yates, talking about the issues women face as they face the empty nest. [Recording] Barbara: Susan and I have discovered, on this journey, that all of us are asking the same questions. They boil down to four questions. The first one is: “Am I the only one who feels this way?” I remember thinking that and feeling that, after my youngest left. It's a very common emotion for us in the empty nest. Most empty nesters feel that they are the only one.  One of the big ones for us / for both of us was loneliness—because the house is empty and it's quiet. We're not used to that.  Susan: Well, one of the things that we have found in talking to many women is that this season is very complex, and it's really diverse—it's just plain messy! You know, when we were mothers of young children, we went through many of the similar challenges—learning to share, back-talk, potty training—but it had sort of a beginning and an ending.  6:00 Then as we hit the teen years, we went through similar challenges; but you get to the empty nest, and it's just messier. It hits us at different times—it hit both Barbara and me at different times.  I remember when it hit me—I have a vivid picture. Our kids all married young. They graduated from college in a period of seven years, and most of them got married right after college. So, I never had a chance to really adjust to the empty nest because, as our third child was graduating from high school to go off to the university, our first child was getting married within a one-week period of time. I was overwhelmed! So it wasn't, for me, until our last daughter / one of the twins got married—our twins got married within six weeks of each other. So that was a crazy summer! [Laughter] Barbara: And they're girls! [Laughter] 7:00 Susan: Yes! I remember the day after Libby's wedding—she was the last to marry—going up to the girls' room that they'd grown up in / that they'd shared their whole life. Susie and her husband, who had been married for six weeks, were packing up the U-Haul® to empty everything else that was left in the room. As I stood in the room, I looked around at the walls; and there were lines where the pictures had hung. You know, there were pieces of little scraps of paper, but otherwise the room was bare. As that truck pulled out of the driveway, with my last child off to her new life, I just sort of dissolved into tears and crumpled on the floor.  As I looked at these bare walls, I noticed that the closet door was ajar. On the floor of the closet, I saw a rumpled, old, blue prom dress. It seemed out of place—it was all alone / it was not needed anymore—it, in a way, was out of style.  8:00 As I looked at that prom dress, I thought: “That's just how I feel. I'm not needed anymore. I'm a little out of style.” I remember just sobbing; and so, for me, that was a real “Oh, me! This really is the empty nest!” as all of my children were finally married. Well, all of us will experience different things as we hit the empty nest. As Barbara and Dennis experienced the beginnings of the empty nest, they experienced it with some real heartache. Barbara: Yes; we did. As we began the empty nest season, we were in a season of suffering as parents. One of our daughters chose to rebel—she became a prodigal. She rebelled in some pretty serious, life-altering ways. We had sort of been dealing with some of her issues through high school, and we were doing everything that we could think of to help her. It seemed like, at times, things were working; but when she hit her senior year, things really began to unravel. 9:00 We found ourselves in a really difficult season as that year progressed. She was involved with an eating disorder, and she began to experiment with alcohol and drugs. Our life, as a family, just began to spiral—it really affected us and our marriage. Here we are—entering or approaching the empty nest—we weren't there yet, but this was the way we entered our empty nest. We spent her senior year, watching other families do proms, and graduation ceremonies, and all these wonderful senior activities. We were wondering where our daughter was: “Where was she spending the night?” It was such a time of heartache and loss for us when it should be a joyous, wonderful season of life. We were in a very vulnerable place in our marriage and in our family because of this great suffering that we were experiencing.  We went through that season, and there were two things that were very important for us.  10:00  One was a small group of friends—and it was just really a couple of couples, who stood with us and prayed for us, even when we didn't know if they were praying—there were many times that we didn't even see them—but they had committed to pray for us through this difficult time in our lives.  The second thing that really got me through that season of life was God's Word. I remember I had the verse—James 1, verses 2-8—written out on a card. I taped that card to my steering wheel, and it must have been there for two or three months. When I would get in my car and something dramatic had happened or something was really weighing on my heart for my daughter, I remember driving down the street, saying that out loud, over and over again, because there was nothing else that I could hang onto.Nothing else seemed stable in my life except God's Word. Those two things really got us through. We've learned that the empty nest is a season of great change. And one of the most important things for navigating the season of the empty nest is friendships.  11:00 We've learned a lot about friendships in the last few years as we've worked on this and how important it is for us, as women, to have some good friends who can stand with us in the journey. Susan: One of the main things that we've found—as we've talked to other women and as we've been honest with each other—is how lonely we are. You know, for many of us, when we were mothers of young children, we were desperate to be with another mother of young children just so we could complete a sentence because we felt like our brain had fried. [Laughter] So we sought out other women, and we went to women's groups, and MOPS groups, and had play dates.  But then what happens, often, is you hit those teen years. You find that you put your girlfriend relationships on hold a little bit because you want to savor those years with your teenagers. Well, in our book, we talk quite a bit about this. We also give several keys to how to begin to reconnect with other girlfriends—I'm going to give you three of them. The first one is simply pray: “God, make me a good friend to others.”  12:00 Ask God to lead you to one or two other women, who would become soul sisters / who would be of encouragement to you. And then, secondly, take the first step. Actually write down a list of three to five women that you would like to get to know at a deeper level. Call them up, ask them to go for a walk, or meet you at Starbucks for coffee.  A third key is simply to be persistent. So you didn't really click with that girl you went for a walk with or you had a hard time sort of conversing at Starbucks—simply call up another one. Keep going! Keep taking the initiative. [Laughter] God, in time, will bring to you a good girlfriend. [Laughter] But it's scary; isn't it? It's scary to take that first step.  Our first question is really to give us each a little bit of relief—our first question is: “Am I the only one who feels this way?” And the answer is: “Most definitely, ‘No!'” 13:00 Barbara: The second question that is on your outline is: “What is happening to my relationships?” You know, as we enter the empty nest—and we sort of have been feeling this as our kids become teenagers—but our relationships are changing. We've learned that our marriages are in different places. My marriage was very different as we approached the empty nest than it was when we began our marriage. We were two very different people after twenty-five / thirty years than we were when we started. So the key word for this is “renegotiate.” All of us are going to have to renegotiate our relationships. First, our marriage has to be renegotiated and redefined. Secondly, our relationships with our kids have to be renegotiated and redefined because they are now becoming their own person.  Susan: You know, as Barbara mentioned, she and Dennis had adjustments as they went into this season. So did Johnny and I; but we have also discovered that most women do. Barbara: Yes. Susan: And that's one of the big things we fear.  14:00 I want to read to you just from two different scenarios that perhaps you can relate to from a chapter that we did on “How Do I Relate to My Husband Now?” These are two stories that are true.  Bess and Gary couldn't wait for the empty nest. Raising their kids had been tough. They'd had different approaches to discipline, they had struggled on a tight budget, and they'd postponed many of their dreams in order to be with their kids. Now, the last one was leaving and they felt they'd done the best they could. Finally, they were about to be free from the daily stresses of parenting. They were excited! They couldn't wait for it to be “just us” again. Shelly's situation was just the opposite—she poured her life into her kids—they had come first. Now, as the last child got ready to leave, she was scared / really scared: “I don't even feel like I know my husband. I haven't been alone with him since I was 26.  [Laughter] 15:00 “Our whole life has revolved around the kids. Now, what will we talk about at the dinner table? What we will do on weekends? I don't even know if I have the energy left to put into this relationship, and I don't know if I want to.”  Two very realistic pictures of what we face in this new season.  Well, as Johnny and I walked into the empty nest, I needed to be aware that I could put undue pressure on my husband. That's one trap I could fall in. On the other end of the spectrum, I could easily fall into this trap: “Well, now that the children are gone, he's just going to work longer at the office. He's going to take on more projects. I'll just get involved in more of the things I'm involved in. We'll just get busier and busier, and we'll pass in the night when it's convenient.” I realized that was equally as dangerous because I could become emotionally disengaged, and that would only lead to isolation.  16:00 It was really helpful to me to recognize these two extremes—but you know—not only does our marriage need to be renegotiated, but also our relationship with our adult children is going to change. Picture with me, for a moment, a seesaw. You know how, when you were little, you get on a seesaw with a friend—and part of the fun of the seesaw was one of you had to move in, who was a little bit heavier, and the lighter one had to move out so you could balance in mid-air?  Keep that picture in mind for a minute because I think, as moms, we have two tendencies as we release our adult children. On one end of the seesaw is the helicopter parent, and on the other end of the seesaw is the hands-off parent. Now, the helicopter parent is the parent that is perhaps a little too involved with her child. She's on the phone: “Did you get to class on time?” “What are you going to wear?” and  “What are your plans for the weekend?” and “Oh, are you eating right?” and “Tell me who your friends are.”  17:00 The child may be on the phone, throughout the day, dumping on mom, which gets mom all upset. Five minutes after the child has dumped, she's fine; and mom is leveled for the rest of the day. [Laughter] It's very easy for us to micro-manage our children from a distance. That's the role of the helicopter parent.  The hands-off parent, on the other hand, is one that says: “Out of sight / out of mind,”—sort of: “I've raised this child to be independent. They need to know that I have confidence in them. I am not going to call them.” As a friend of mine, who just sent her first off to college this year, said, “We're not allowed to call him for the first three weeks.” Now, she is a chronic hands-off parent—doesn't know his class schedule, doesn't know who his friends are, and wants to give him space so that he can become his own man.  18:00 Let me quickly say that both the helicopter parent and the hands-off parent love their child / they want that child to be secure. So, in our book, we talk in greater detail about these two tendencies and give several practical helps on how you can seek to balance that seesaw.  So our first two questions are: “What is happening to me? Am I the only one who feels this way?” and secondly, “What is happening to my relationships?” Barbara: Yes, there are two words that I want you to remember. The first one is, “intentional.” Become intentional in your marriage relationship and in key friendships. The second word that's key is “flexible.” Become flexible in your relationship with your children because it's changing. You need to adjust to what your child needs and to find out the best way to relate to your child. So become intentional and become flexible. 19:00 [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been listening to Barbara Rainey and Susan Yates addressing a number of moms—most of whom either were just into the empty nest or headed in that direction. I imagine you saw a lot of heads nodding as you spoke that night. Do you remember that? Barbara: Yes; we did. We got some great feedback. But the story that I remember the most was a young Asian woman, who came up. I could tell by looking at her she wasn't an empty nester. I started talking to her, and she's got three young kids. She said, “I wanted to come hear what you had to say and get your book because I want to understand what my mom's going through.” I was just so taken aback that this young woman cared enough about her mother to want to understand where her mother was in life. I was so impressed / I still am impressed that she was willing to do that because she was the only one in there who wasn't an empty nester or about to be. Most of the women had teenagers or kids who were already gone—so I was impressed. 20:00 Dennis: I'll never forget when we were meeting together with some of our friends—all ladies about the same age—and we asked them, “Okay, tell us the most important things— Barbara: Oh, yes. We were about to go in the empty nest, and these women were all ahead of us—they and their husbands; yes. Dennis: Yes; and there were these blank looks on their faces: “We haven't talked about it.”  Barbara: “We haven't learned anything.” Dennis: “What do you mean you and Dennis are talking about it? What are you learning?” So it just points out the need that husbands and wives really need to own this and talk about it together.  Bob: In fact, at the end of each chapter in the book, you've got questions. One of the questions, at the end of Chapter 5, is: “Set aside a date to begin discussing your expectations of each other in this new season. Also, plan for some times of fun for just the two of you; and if you're highly motivated, begin to talk together about your vision for the future—about what mission you might want to work on, as a couple.”   You really are, in this book—you and Susan together—mentoring women as they approach the onset of the empty nest and as they enter in to those early years— 21:00 —because this is a significant life transition for somebody, who for at least / almost two decades, has been functioning in the role of mother. Now, that part of her job is about to change in a pretty dramatic way.  And we've got copies of the book, Barbara and Susan's Guide to the Empty Nest, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. If you know somebody who is about to enter that season—maybe it's you or maybe the season is still a year or two in front of you—get a copy of this book. It will help you be spiritually and emotionally prepared for the empty nest when it arrives; and it will help you navigate this chapter of life if this is where you find yourself right now. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 22:00 Well, here at the start of a new month, we've got a couple of anniversaries we want to acknowledge. David and Tanisha Lawrence are celebrating their fifth anniversary today. They live in Lynn, Massachusetts. And we also want to say, “Happy anniversary!” to our friends, Terry and Cindy Fahy, who live in Los Angeles. Terry is the General Manager at KKLA in Los Angeles. He and Cindy have been married 35 years today, and they are alumni of the Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway. “Congratulations!” to the Fahys and to the Lawrences. We hope your day is a great day as you celebrate your anniversaries.  We think anniversaries are a big deal and that we ought to be celebrating longevity, and commitment, and faithfulness in a marriage relationship. We are the Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. In fact, last week, we celebrated our 40th anniversary as a ministry.  23:00 We got staff and friends together and spent some time reflecting on God's faithfulness over 40 years, as we have sought to provide practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families over the last four decades.  You know, we had a number of people, last week, who wished us a happy anniversary with an anniversary donation. In fact, I noticed a number of $40 donations came through last week, and that was encouraging to see. We want to say, “Thank you,” to those of you who have helped support the ministry over the years.  If you'd like to help with a donation today, we'd love to hear from you. If your donation is $100 or more, we have a thank-you gift we'd like to send you. It's a set of three study guides from our Art of Marriage® Connect Series—all designed to help you, as a couple. You can go through these, as husband and wife; or you can get with other couples and engage with them in helping to build stronger, healthier marriages. Find out more when you give, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to make a donation at 1-800-FL-TODAY.  24:00 Or you can mail your donation to us at Family Life Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about why it's important for a mom to maybe take a break when she reaches the empty nest—maybe a little season of rest there. We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Click Here to Listen to the other parts in the seriesThe Art of Being a Wife (Part 1)The Art of Being a Wife (Part 2) - Building Up Your ManThe Art of Being a Wife (Part 3) - Praising the PositiveThe Art of Being a Wife (Part 4) - Embracing the DifferencesThe Art of Being a Wife (Part 5) - Leaning on GodThe Art of Being a Wife (Part 6) - Being His HelperThe Art of Being a Wife (Part 7) - Facing the StormsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Differences Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 3)Air date:                     February 15, 2016  Bob: Engaged couples often look at one another and think, “We're so much alike!” Then, after they have been married for a little while, they look at each other and think, “Who are you?!” Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: What happens when we're engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike. We love each other so much—we'll never have clashes.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now what do I do?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 15th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So what advice would you give to young wives and their husbands about the adjustments we make in marriage? We're going to hear what Barbara Rainey has to say about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I am really enjoying learning lots of new things about you, Barbara. Dennis: You're eavesdropping. Bob: Well, it's legitimate eavesdropping because of what your wife's been writing about. This has been so much fun to read. [Laughter] Dennis: I think I want to welcome her to FamilyLife Today—Sweetheart. Barbara: Maybe we don't; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: This is my bride, and she has plenty of stories to tell. Bob: And she has just recently—by the way, welcome, Barbara—nice to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: You've been collecting these stories, not to share with the world your stories, but really to mentor—you've become an e-mentor; haven't you? Barbara: Yes. I'm really writing this for six women / six young women, who happen to be my four daughters and two daughters-in-law—to share with them the lessons that I've learned over all these years of marriage in hopes that it will encourage them, and give them hope, and help them—help them persevere for the long haul. 2:00 Dennis: But it actually started—back to Bob's point about—from an e-mentoring standpoint—really started on the internet— Barbara: It did. That's right; I had forgotten. Dennis: —as you were writing emails to your daughters and daughters-in-law so that you'd be able to coach them / encourage them in the process. Bob: Did you start doing this right after Ashley got married? Barbara: No; actually, it was after our two boys got married. They got married the same summer—the summer of 2001. One of those two girls asked me if I would give her some advice on being a wife. I thought: “Wow! She really wants my advice?” I thought, “If she cracked the door open a little bit, I'm going to just walk right on through while the door's open!” I said, “Sure, I'd love to!”  I began writing a series of letters in the fall of 2001 to my two brand-new daughters-in-law and to my daughter, Ashley, who, by then, had been married four years. Bob: A lot of—a wife will hear you say that and they'll think, ““Boy, if somebody asked me, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.”  3:00 But it sounds like you were ready to dive right in with wisdom. Barbara: Well, I don't know that I would say it that way, but I was ready to dive in—in the sense that I felt like, “Now was the time,” because all new brides are extremely teachable—they're eager, they want to learn, they want to do it right, they don't want to make mistakes—they really love this guy they just married. They're most teachable and most coachable in those early years. I wanted to begin by sort of exploiting that—in a sense, in a good way—by saying: “Here are some things that I learned / here are some lessons I learned along the way. Here are some stories of what we went through / what I've learned from it. Perhaps, it will be helpful.” Dennis: Over the years, we've—who knows how many hundreds of Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways have been held by FamilyLife—we've looked into the eyes of those in attendance.  4:00 It does seem that the engaged couples and the newly-marrieds are, not only on a steep learning curve, but they're much more teachable and kind of spongy in terms of soaking in the truth. What we wanted to do—and what I encouraged Barbara to do with this book—is take advantage of a window into the soul to speak a lot of relevant truth that she's learned, as a woman from the Scriptures and from other older women who have coached her, and really help these young wives get started on the right trajectory.  Bob: They didn't ask you about a specific subject. They just said, “Help me be a wife.” How did you know, “Okay; I'll start here”? Barbara: Well, what I did is—I just thought back to those early days in our marriage and tried to remember: “What were the lessons that I learned? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?” Bob: Like that early romantic date that Dennis took you on? Barbara: Yes, like that one. Bob: Tell our listeners about—[Laughter] Barbara: You like this; don't you? [Laughter] 5:00 Bob: —how ““Prince Charming” swept you off your feet. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. While we were dating in the summer of 1972, which was of course in the dark ages—one Saturday / it was probably on a Friday afternoon Dennis asked if I wanted to hang out on Saturday afternoon. I said, “Sure.” He picked me up in his— Bob: Now, let me interrupt you just so we get a context. Barbara: Okay. Bob: You guys had been friends for years— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —since college.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Right. Bob: [To Barbara] After college, you went to the east coast and worked with Campus Crusade. Barbara: Correct. Dennis: University of South Carolina. Bob: [To Dennis] Where did you go? Dennis: I was in Dallas/Ft. Worth area, working with high school kids.  Bob: You kept up your friendship—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —but there was nothing romantic between the two of you. Barbara: No, nothing romantic. We had been really good friends for three years. I really thought of Dennis as a brother—he was just a great, great friend. Dennis: She showed up in Dallas and needed to be shown around—kind of where everything was / kind of how you get around—so I'd pick her up, take her to work. Bob: Now, were you thinking of her like your sister at this point? 6:00 Dennis: Yes, I really was. It was not romantic—it really wasn't—which is really a cheap shot on your part—[Laughter]—to call out this thing that I took her on as a romantic date because we were just hanging out! Barbara: That's right—we were. Bob: Was this before—this date we're about to talk about—was this before or after you had tried to hold hands with her in the parking lot? Dennis: Way before. Barbara: I have no idea. Dennis: Way before. Bob: Really? Barbara: I would think so—yes. Dennis: Oh, yes; oh, yes. Bob: Okay. Barbara: I would guess. Bob: It's just friends: “Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?” Dennis: Yes. I'd take her back to her apartment, and we'd kind of sit on the stairs and talk— Barbara: Yes. Bob: Just visit. Dennis: —until about 2:00 in the morning—[Laughter]—just like a couple of friends. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. [Dennis laughing] Bob: Okay. So he says, “Do you want to hang out tomorrow?” and he comes and picks you up. Barbara: He did.  Bob: Did you know where you were going? Barbara: You know, I don't remember—it was too long ago. I don't remember if I knew or not, but I knew it was casual. I knew we were going to go on a picnic. He took me to some remote place outside of Dallas/Ft. Worth— 7:00 Bob: Now wait. I've got to stop you here. You're taking her on a picnic. You're not taking your buddy—“Let's go hang out,”— on a picnic. There's more going on here in your mind [Barbara laughing] than just, “Let's hang out together.” Dennis: She needed to understand where the riverbanks were— Bob: Alright.  Barbara: Like I really care! Bob: We understand one another here; okay. So he picks you up? [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. We take off to parts unknown because I'd never really been in Texas in my life. I didn't know where we were going, but I trusted him. We show up at this stream, or river, or pool of water, or something—I don't know where it was! Dennis: I don't know where it was—it was below a dam somewhere. Barbara: Gosh; I couldn't begin to tell you. Dennis: It was murky / it was fishy-smelling. It was a great date! Barbara: All I know is he pulls out a fishing pole—fishing rod / fishing thing—I didn't know what a fishing thing was! [Laughter] Oh, how funny! Bob: One of the things you observed or learned, when you shared this story with your daughters—it was really to talk about the fact that, in relationships, you've got to make some adjustments and be ready for the fact that you're two very different people. Barbara: Exactly; because after we married, about three months later, we moved to Colorado.  8:00 In Colorado, there was abundant fishing.  Bob: You married three months later—after the fishing date? Barbara: Yes! Dennis: You caught up on that small detail. [Laughter] Bob: I just thought our listeners ought to be aware. [Laughter] It went from zero to sixty. Dennis: I'm a man of action, Bob. Bob: This was a sports car relationship. [Laughter] So, from the day you said, “Will you…” to the day you said, “I do,”— Barbara: —was six weeks. Bob: Six weeks? Barbara: Six weeks. Bob: You said, “I'll be the Fish Queen for as long as we both shall live.” [Laughter] Dennis: Then, on our honeymoon, I took her camping and trout fishing. [Laughter] We need to get to the point of the book though—she's talking about how we, as men and women, are different. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: I mean, we did start out our marriage—really, not polar opposites—because we enjoyed one another. Barbara: Yes, we had a great time; but, had you asked me what I would have pictured for the early years of our marriage, I would not have pictured traipsing around in the mountains—  9:00 —fishing, and camping, and all of those things—because none of that was a part of my background, growing up. They were totally brand-new experiences. I learned, by those experiences, that marrying someone is merging together two vastly different—not just personalities—but life experiences. As Dennis used to say, all the time, “It's like merging two countries.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because we are very different, as men and women—we're very different in our life experiences / our outlook—everything is different. So those early years are years of discovery. What you do with what you discover sets the tone and the foundation for your marriage. Bob: Obviously, we're talking to Barbara Rainey, who is joining us today on FamilyLife Today. We're talking about the wisdom that you want to pass on to younger women—specifically to your daughters—about being a wife. You've just written a book called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. 10:00 What are the big ideas that you want to pass on to your daughters in this area of marital differences? Barbara: First of all—the first big idea is that there are going to be differences. It‘s normal to be diametrically opposite on all kinds of fronts. Because what happens—when we're engaged / and dating but then engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike, and we love each other so much—we'll never have clashes. Yes; if we do, we can handle them. We love each other so much that it's not going to be difficult.”  I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating.  Bob: Yes. Barbara: All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now, what do I do?” Bob: We have this tendency to think different means wrong. Barbara: Wrong; yes. 11:00 Bob: “This is the way I think; and it's the way I think naturally. So I must be right; and if you think differently, we need to fix you so you think like me.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: That's part of the awakening and adjusting that both wives and husbands have to do in the early stages of a relationship; right? Barbara: Exactly; because that's one of the beautiful things about marriage—is how it broadens our perspective. I write about that in telling these stories about fishing. I knew nothing about fishing; but because of who I married, the horizons of my life have been greatly expanded and broadened. I could have either fought that, and resisted that, and said: “I don't want any part of that! That's foreign to me. I don't like it”; but by embracing who he was, and his differences as a person, my life is much richer because of that.  I think, if we can encourage these young wives—and husbands too / but this is for the wives right now—to welcome those differences as an opportunity to grow as an individual, it will make it easier. Dennis: I like what you wrote in your book here— 12:00 —you said: “These new realities created some minor earthquakes in my life—rumblings that shook my familiar, comfortable foundation. I was discovering that we were not as much alike as I'd originally thought. We were opposites who were attracted to one another but found ourselves, like magnets, that repel each other.” And then she goes on to write about how I would make a decision compared to how she would make one.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: I'd see something that needed to be done or something I felt like we ought to go do—I'd process at the speed of light and off we'd go.  Bob: Right. Dennis: Barbara, on the other hand, processes a little slower. In fact— Barbara: —a lot slower. Dennis: —a lot slower. Barbara: Is that what you were going to say? Bob: A little more thoughtfully—with a little broader perspective. Dennis: I've been enriched by that, but I promise you—if, early in our marriage, we had set up war with one another in two separate bunkers.  13:00 You could easily have built a case between two very different people, who had started out their marriage together, but now really can't get along and don't see one another—as we teach at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—as “God's perfect gift for you.” Bob: You describe how you began to approach these differences in your marriage. You call it the “Bookend Principle.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Explain what that is. Barbara: The Bookend Principle is something that Dennis and I practiced with one another; and then, after the fact, sort of came up with the name for that. What we have done through the years is—when we've had disagreements over our differences or conversations trying to understand one another—we would say to each other: “I love you, and I would marry you all over again. This may be hard, this may be confusing, this may be difficult—it may not be fixed in a single conversation, like we would always like; but that's okay. I love you and I'm committed to you, and I would do it all over again.” 14:00 That statement of reaffirmation of our vows and commitment to one another provides a level of security to continue to have these discussions about our differences. I think it's a good habit. It was a good habit for us because you can get so caught up in how different we are—and how his differences grate on me or make life difficult for me and my differences make life difficult for him—that you can subtly switch to becoming enemies rather than allies. Bob: Were there times, or events, or evenings when you weren't sure you loved him and you weren't sure you'd marry him all over again? Barbara: No. There were times when I didn't feel loving—without question—but I never got to the place where I thought, “This was a big mistake,” because I knew that God had called us to marry each other. I knew that we were doing what we were supposed to do. So, therefore, if this was God's will, and it was, then He would enable us to figure it out with time. Bob: That issue was settled. Barbara: Yes; “Done.” Bob: That wasn't open for reevaluation— Barbara: No. Bob: —reexamination— Barbara: No. Bob: —re-discussion.  15:00 At some point—when you stood and said, “I do,”—the ships were burned. You weren't going to reconsider whether— Barbara: I think that's the mistake too many young couples are making today—is they get into it, and it becomes difficult—instead of saying, “We can work this out,” they say, “Gosh; we must have made a mistake.” They move to, “This is a mistake, and maybe there's a way out,” rather than, “We can find a way through this / we can make it work,” and stick with it for the long haul. Dennis: I look back on our marriage. I don't remember ever entertaining the thought. And I mean by entertaining—I'm talking about cultivating the thought that I'd made a mistake. I do wonder, looking back on it—this Bookend Principle of kind of starting out with a commitment that says, “I love you,” and then maybe, in the midst of an argument or after the argument has been exhausted, you say again: “I'm committed to you. I'd marry you all over again.”  16:00 It creates a safe place for two imperfect, very different people to hammer out their relationship together. I think we're an instant culture that is not used to having to take a lifetime to achieve this thing called “oneness.” What we were doing, back then—we were going through some very hard ground. I mean, it had not been plowed before—two very independent people—who had joined together in marriage, and who did rub one another the wrong way, and who, in their differences, missed each other over, and over, and over again—and, as a result, mis-communicated, disappointed, hurt one another. How do you maintain a relationship in the midst of that if you're not committed?   Bob: I think it's important because we can laugh about fishing dates, and whether you like fishing or not; but a lot of folks, who are listening, are going, “Look, our differences are not around whether you like fishing or not— Barbara: Yes; exactly. 17:00 Bob: “Our differences are around core, fundamental, deeply-held issues in life. The fact that we're miles apart on this—I just don't know how to live with a husband / or a wife who does not embrace what's dear to me at the center of my being.” Barbara: Yes. That is a very difficult place to be. Even though Dennis and I never really had a crisis quite to that depth, we missed each other plenty of times. There are seasons in a marriage when it's very dry and when there doesn't feel like there's much life. I would have to say that: “There is hope. There's always hope, as long as we have breath, that if you are committed and you are teachable—both of you are teachable—and you hang in there, there will be a solution, given time.” I think that we expect too much too quickly. We would like to have it happen quickly—I would like to have it happen more quickly too, but that's just not the way of a marriage.  18:00 A marriage is slow, steady growth over a long length of time.  Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3, the way God commands a marriage to start is He commanded a man and a woman to leave father and mother. He commanded them to cleave to one another / to be committed to one another. And third, He commanded them to receive one another—to receive the other person as God's gift for you. If you practice those three concepts—leave, cleave, and receive—over, and over, and over again—if you practice that in your marriage / especially, in the early years—it doesn't mean it's ever going to be easy. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I asked Barbara how she would summarize our marriage. I was kind of hoping for “romantic,” [Laughter] “chill bumps”— Barbara: —“wonderful.” Dennis: You know? But instead, you said? Barbara: “It's been hard.” Dennis: “Hard work.” Barbara: “Hard work”; yes. 19:00 Dennis: Lots of hard work. I think a lot of young couples—and for that matter, older couples—are starting out marriages today not really expecting it to be as challenging and to demand perseverance like it does Bob: I just have to come back around here because you're right in this section of your book that—not only did your marriage start off with fishing—but through the years you've learned to enjoy hunting with your husband? [Laughter] Is that true? Barbara: Well, not by his definition; no. Not by— Dennis: I was waiting for the answer to that question. Bob: I'm going to read to you what you wrote. Barbara: Okay; okay. Read what I wrote. Bob: “And I have learned to appreciate hunting.” Barbara: Yes, “appreciate it.” Bob: Maybe “appreciate” is a better word than— Barbara: “Appreciate” is a better word. Yes Bob: “I actually went with him on an elk hunt a few years ago— Barbara: Yes. I did. Bob: — “with the camo, the face paint, and the human scent killers sprayed on my body.” Barbara: [Laughing] I did! Barbara and Bob: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] Bob: That's what you say right here: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter]  20:00  “We hiked and hiked and snuck up on a herd of elk hiding behind trees like clandestine spies following a double agent down a dark alley in Eastern Europe. It was really fun!” Barbara: It was fun! [Laughter] Bob: But the point is that we're going to face these differences in the first years of our marriage.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Some of them crop up ten years in—fifteen. It's a life-long process of understanding “We're different,” and making those adjustments. Barbara: Exactly. That really is the point that I'm trying to make with these girls—is that the differences are there—they're not to be changed and they're going to be there for life. I think we somehow assume, early on, that a lot of this stuff is going to subside, or change, or moderate; but who we are is who we are.  I'm just amazed at how little really changes over time. You either fight it, and resent it, and resist it, or you join and learn to actually enjoy it and appreciate it.  21:00 Now, do I love to go hunting? No. I enjoyed that because it was active. We were hiking in the mountains, and it was beautiful. Dennis: And it was warm. Barbara: And it was reasonably warm; yes. But the kind of hunting that he is often inviting me to go on—which I have refused—is the kind where you get up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, in the winter, and you go sit. You can't talk / you can hardly breathe, and it's freezing. [Laughter] Hiking in the mountains—we could talk as we went—until we actually saw the elk / then we had to be quiet. It was a much different kind of experience so I could appreciate that one. But sitting in a deer stand—I've done it once and I'm not real interested in going there again. Bob: The point is—you don't have to be interested in going there again to make your marriage work. This is a part of the dance. One of your chapters in your book, “Marriage Is Like Beautiful Dancing”—  22:00 —“Part of the dance is understanding what we do together and where it's better to leave each other some space and some time to do things apart.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: I just think you have given some real great practical wisdom to a lot of wives in what you've written in your book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's brand new, and you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for the book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us. Now, as both of you guys know, this is our 40th anniversary as a ministry—2016. All year long, we are celebrating anniversaries. Today, we want to congratulate Abigail and Angelo Pinheiro. They live in Princeton, New Jersey. They listen to FamilyLife Today on WFIL. They're celebrating 21 years of marriage today. “Congratulations!” to the Pinheiros—“Happy Anniversary!”  23:00 We'd love to help you celebrate your anniversary this year. In fact, if you will go to FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date, we'll have some suggestions for you this year on how this year's anniversary can be the best anniversary ever. It's all because we are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries.” There are a lot of anniversaries that have happened over the years because of how God has used FamilyLife in people's lives for 40 years now. Thanks to those of you who make FamilyLife possible. We're listener-supported—we depend on your donations in order for this ministry to exist. This month, we're hoping that God might raise up, in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard, 20 new families who would join us as Legacy Partners. We're asking you—if you're a regular FamilyLife Today listener / if God's used this ministry in your life: “Would you be one of the families in your state to help support this program?”  It's easy to do—go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “DONATE.”  24:00 There is information there about becoming a Legacy Partner or about how you can make a one-time gift to FamilyLife Today. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” We'll explain the whole process to you when you call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk about the spiritual foundation in a marriage and how important that is. Barbara Rainey will be back with us. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Differences Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: Engaged couples often look at one another and think, “We're so much alike!” Then, after they have been married for a little while, they look at each other and think, “Who are you?!” Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: What happens when we're engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike. We love each other so much—we'll never have clashes.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now what do I do?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 15th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So what advice would you give to young wives and their husbands about the adjustments we make in marriage? We're going to hear what Barbara Rainey has to say about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I am really enjoying learning lots of new things about you, Barbara. Dennis: You're eavesdropping. Bob: Well, it's legitimate eavesdropping because of what your wife's been writing about. This has been so much fun to read. [Laughter] Dennis: I think I want to welcome her to FamilyLife Today—Sweetheart. Barbara: Maybe we don't; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: This is my bride, and she has plenty of stories to tell. Bob: And she has just recently—by the way, welcome, Barbara—nice to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: You've been collecting these stories, not to share with the world your stories, but really to mentor—you've become an e-mentor; haven't you? Barbara: Yes. I'm really writing this for six women / six young women, who happen to be my four daughters and two daughters-in-law—to share with them the lessons that I've learned over all these years of marriage in hopes that it will encourage them, and give them hope, and help them—help them persevere for the long haul. 2:00 Dennis: But it actually started—back to Bob's point about—from an e-mentoring standpoint—really started on the internet— Barbara: It did. That's right; I had forgotten. Dennis: —as you were writing emails to your daughters and daughters-in-law so that you'd be able to coach them / encourage them in the process. Bob: Did you start doing this right after Ashley got married? Barbara: No; actually, it was after our two boys got married. They got married the same summer—the summer of 2001. One of those two girls asked me if I would give her some advice on being a wife. I thought: “Wow! She really wants my advice?” I thought, “If she cracked the door open a little bit, I'm going to just walk right on through while the door's open!” I said, “Sure, I'd love to!”  I began writing a series of letters in the fall of 2001 to my two brand-new daughters-in-law and to my daughter, Ashley, who, by then, had been married four years. Bob: A lot of—a wife will hear you say that and they'll think, ““Boy, if somebody asked me, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.”  3:00 But it sounds like you were ready to dive right in with wisdom. Barbara: Well, I don't know that I would say it that way, but I was ready to dive in—in the sense that I felt like, “Now was the time,” because all new brides are extremely teachable—they're eager, they want to learn, they want to do it right, they don't want to make mistakes—they really love this guy they just married. They're most teachable and most coachable in those early years. I wanted to begin by sort of exploiting that—in a sense, in a good way—by saying: “Here are some things that I learned / here are some lessons I learned along the way. Here are some stories of what we went through / what I've learned from it. Perhaps, it will be helpful.” Dennis: Over the years, we've—who knows how many hundreds of Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways have been held by FamilyLife—we've looked into the eyes of those in attendance.  4:00 It does seem that the engaged couples and the newly-marrieds are, not only on a steep learning curve, but they're much more teachable and kind of spongy in terms of soaking in the truth. What we wanted to do—and what I encouraged Barbara to do with this book—is take advantage of a window into the soul to speak a lot of relevant truth that she's learned, as a woman from the Scriptures and from other older women who have coached her, and really help these young wives get started on the right trajectory.  Bob: They didn't ask you about a specific subject. They just said, “Help me be a wife.” How did you know, “Okay; I'll start here”? Barbara: Well, what I did is—I just thought back to those early days in our marriage and tried to remember: “What were the lessons that I learned? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?” Bob: Like that early romantic date that Dennis took you on? Barbara: Yes, like that one. Bob: Tell our listeners about—[Laughter] Barbara: You like this; don't you? [Laughter] 5:00 Bob: —how ““Prince Charming” swept you off your feet. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. While we were dating in the summer of 1972, which was of course in the dark ages—one Saturday / it was probably on a Friday afternoon Dennis asked if I wanted to hang out on Saturday afternoon. I said, “Sure.” He picked me up in his— Bob: Now, let me interrupt you just so we get a context. Barbara: Okay. Bob: You guys had been friends for years— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —since college.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Right. Bob: [To Barbara] After college, you went to the east coast and worked with Campus Crusade. Barbara: Correct. Dennis: University of South Carolina. Bob: [To Dennis] Where did you go? Dennis: I was in Dallas/Ft. Worth area, working with high school kids.  Bob: You kept up your friendship—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —but there was nothing romantic between the two of you. Barbara: No, nothing romantic. We had been really good friends for three years. I really thought of Dennis as a brother—he was just a great, great friend. Dennis: She showed up in Dallas and needed to be shown around—kind of where everything was / kind of how you get around—so I'd pick her up, take her to work. Bob: Now, were you thinking of her like your sister at this point? 6:00 Dennis: Yes, I really was. It was not romantic—it really wasn't—which is really a cheap shot on your part—[Laughter]—to call out this thing that I took her on as a romantic date because we were just hanging out! Barbara: That's right—we were. Bob: Was this before—this date we're about to talk about—was this before or after you had tried to hold hands with her in the parking lot? Dennis: Way before. Barbara: I have no idea. Dennis: Way before. Bob: Really? Barbara: I would think so—yes. Dennis: Oh, yes; oh, yes. Bob: Okay. Barbara: I would guess. Bob: It's just friends: “Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?” Dennis: Yes. I'd take her back to her apartment, and we'd kind of sit on the stairs and talk— Barbara: Yes. Bob: Just visit. Dennis: —until about 2:00 in the morning—[Laughter]—just like a couple of friends. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. [Dennis laughing] Bob: Okay. So he says, “Do you want to hang out tomorrow?” and he comes and picks you up. Barbara: He did.  Bob: Did you know where you were going? Barbara: You know, I don't remember—it was too long ago. I don't remember if I knew or not, but I knew it was casual. I knew we were going to go on a picnic. He took me to some remote place outside of Dallas/Ft. Worth— 7:00 Bob: Now wait. I've got to stop you here. You're taking her on a picnic. You're not taking your buddy—“Let's go hang out,”— on a picnic. There's more going on here in your mind [Barbara laughing] than just, “Let's hang out together.” Dennis: She needed to understand where the riverbanks were— Bob: Alright.  Barbara: Like I really care! Bob: We understand one another here; okay. So he picks you up? [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. We take off to parts unknown because I'd never really been in Texas in my life. I didn't know where we were going, but I trusted him. We show up at this stream, or river, or pool of water, or something—I don't know where it was! Dennis: I don't know where it was—it was below a dam somewhere. Barbara: Gosh; I couldn't begin to tell you. Dennis: It was murky / it was fishy-smelling. It was a great date! Barbara: All I know is he pulls out a fishing pole—fishing rod / fishing thing—I didn't know what a fishing thing was! [Laughter] Oh, how funny! Bob: One of the things you observed or learned, when you shared this story with your daughters—it was really to talk about the fact that, in relationships, you've got to make some adjustments and be ready for the fact that you're two very different people. Barbara: Exactly; because after we married, about three months later, we moved to Colorado.  8:00 In Colorado, there was abundant fishing.  Bob: You married three months later—after the fishing date? Barbara: Yes! Dennis: You caught up on that small detail. [Laughter] Bob: I just thought our listeners ought to be aware. [Laughter] It went from zero to sixty. Dennis: I'm a man of action, Bob. Bob: This was a sports car relationship. [Laughter] So, from the day you said, “Will you…” to the day you said, “I do,”— Barbara: —was six weeks. Bob: Six weeks? Barbara: Six weeks. Bob: You said, “I'll be the Fish Queen for as long as we both shall live.” [Laughter] Dennis: Then, on our honeymoon, I took her camping and trout fishing. [Laughter] We need to get to the point of the book though—she's talking about how we, as men and women, are different. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: I mean, we did start out our marriage—really, not polar opposites—because we enjoyed one another. Barbara: Yes, we had a great time; but, had you asked me what I would have pictured for the early years of our marriage, I would not have pictured traipsing around in the mountains—  9:00 —fishing, and camping, and all of those things—because none of that was a part of my background, growing up. They were totally brand-new experiences. I learned, by those experiences, that marrying someone is merging together two vastly different—not just personalities—but life experiences. As Dennis used to say, all the time, “It's like merging two countries.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because we are very different, as men and women—we're very different in our life experiences / our outlook—everything is different. So those early years are years of discovery. What you do with what you discover sets the tone and the foundation for your marriage. Bob: Obviously, we're talking to Barbara Rainey, who is joining us today on FamilyLife Today. We're talking about the wisdom that you want to pass on to younger women—specifically to your daughters—about being a wife. You've just written a book called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. 10:00 What are the big ideas that you want to pass on to your daughters in this area of marital differences? Barbara: First of all—the first big idea is that there are going to be differences. It‘s normal to be diametrically opposite on all kinds of fronts. Because what happens—when we're engaged / and dating but then engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike, and we love each other so much—we'll never have clashes. Yes; if we do, we can handle them. We love each other so much that it's not going to be difficult.”  I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating.  Bob: Yes. Barbara: All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now, what do I do?” Bob: We have this tendency to think different means wrong. Barbara: Wrong; yes. 11:00 Bob: “This is the way I think; and it's the way I think naturally. So I must be right; and if you think differently, we need to fix you so you think like me.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: That's part of the awakening and adjusting that both wives and husbands have to do in the early stages of a relationship; right? Barbara: Exactly; because that's one of the beautiful things about marriage—is how it broadens our perspective. I write about that in telling these stories about fishing. I knew nothing about fishing; but because of who I married, the horizons of my life have been greatly expanded and broadened. I could have either fought that, and resisted that, and said: “I don't want any part of that! That's foreign to me. I don't like it”; but by embracing who he was, and his differences as a person, my life is much richer because of that.  I think, if we can encourage these young wives—and husbands too / but this is for the wives right now—to welcome those differences as an opportunity to grow as an individual, it will make it easier. Dennis: I like what you wrote in your book here— 12:00 —you said: “These new realities created some minor earthquakes in my life—rumblings that shook my familiar, comfortable foundation. I was discovering that we were not as much alike as I'd originally thought. We were opposites who were attracted to one another but found ourselves, like magnets, that repel each other.” And then she goes on to write about how I would make a decision compared to how she would make one.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: I'd see something that needed to be done or something I felt like we ought to go do—I'd process at the speed of light and off we'd go.  Bob: Right. Dennis: Barbara, on the other hand, processes a little slower. In fact— Barbara: —a lot slower. Dennis: —a lot slower. Barbara: Is that what you were going to say? Bob: A little more thoughtfully—with a little broader perspective. Dennis: I've been enriched by that, but I promise you—if, early in our marriage, we had set up war with one another in two separate bunkers.  13:00 You could easily have built a case between two very different people, who had started out their marriage together, but now really can't get along and don't see one another—as we teach at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—as “God's perfect gift for you.” Bob: You describe how you began to approach these differences in your marriage. You call it the “Bookend Principle.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Explain what that is. Barbara: The Bookend Principle is something that Dennis and I practiced with one another; and then, after the fact, sort of came up with the name for that. What we have done through the years is—when we've had disagreements over our differences or conversations trying to understand one another—we would say to each other: “I love you, and I would marry you all over again. This may be hard, this may be confusing, this may be difficult—it may not be fixed in a single conversation, like we would always like; but that's okay. I love you and I'm committed to you, and I would do it all over again.” 14:00 That statement of reaffirmation of our vows and commitment to one another provides a level of security to continue to have these discussions about our differences. I think it's a good habit. It was a good habit for us because you can get so caught up in how different we are—and how his differences grate on me or make life difficult for me and my differences make life difficult for him—that you can subtly switch to becoming enemies rather than allies. Bob: Were there times, or events, or evenings when you weren't sure you loved him and you weren't sure you'd marry him all over again? Barbara: No. There were times when I didn't feel loving—without question—but I never got to the place where I thought, “This was a big mistake,” because I knew that God had called us to marry each other. I knew that we were doing what we were supposed to do. So, therefore, if this was God's will, and it was, then He would enable us to figure it out with time. Bob: That issue was settled. Barbara: Yes; “Done.” Bob: That wasn't open for reevaluation— Barbara: No. Bob: —reexamination— Barbara: No. Bob: —re-discussion.  15:00 At some point—when you stood and said, “I do,”—the ships were burned. You weren't going to reconsider whether— Barbara: I think that's the mistake too many young couples are making today—is they get into it, and it becomes difficult—instead of saying, “We can work this out,” they say, “Gosh; we must have made a mistake.” They move to, “This is a mistake, and maybe there's a way out,” rather than, “We can find a way through this / we can make it work,” and stick with it for the long haul. Dennis: I look back on our marriage. I don't remember ever entertaining the thought. And I mean by entertaining—I'm talking about cultivating the thought that I'd made a mistake. I do wonder, looking back on it—this Bookend Principle of kind of starting out with a commitment that says, “I love you,” and then maybe, in the midst of an argument or after the argument has been exhausted, you say again: “I'm committed to you. I'd marry you all over again.”  16:00 It creates a safe place for two imperfect, very different people to hammer out their relationship together. I think we're an instant culture that is not used to having to take a lifetime to achieve this thing called “oneness.” What we were doing, back then—we were going through some very hard ground. I mean, it had not been plowed before—two very independent people—who had joined together in marriage, and who did rub one another the wrong way, and who, in their differences, missed each other over, and over, and over again—and, as a result, mis-communicated, disappointed, hurt one another. How do you maintain a relationship in the midst of that if you're not committed?   Bob: I think it's important because we can laugh about fishing dates, and whether you like fishing or not; but a lot of folks, who are listening, are going, “Look, our differences are not around whether you like fishing or not— Barbara: Yes; exactly. 17:00 Bob: “Our differences are around core, fundamental, deeply-held issues in life. The fact that we're miles apart on this—I just don't know how to live with a husband / or a wife who does not embrace what's dear to me at the center of my being.” Barbara: Yes. That is a very difficult place to be. Even though Dennis and I never really had a crisis quite to that depth, we missed each other plenty of times. There are seasons in a marriage when it's very dry and when there doesn't feel like there's much life. I would have to say that: “There is hope. There's always hope, as long as we have breath, that if you are committed and you are teachable—both of you are teachable—and you hang in there, there will be a solution, given time.” I think that we expect too much too quickly. We would like to have it happen quickly—I would like to have it happen more quickly too, but that's just not the way of a marriage.  18:00 A marriage is slow, steady growth over a long length of time.  Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3, the way God commands a marriage to start is He commanded a man and a woman to leave father and mother. He commanded them to cleave to one another / to be committed to one another. And third, He commanded them to receive one another—to receive the other person as God's gift for you. If you practice those three concepts—leave, cleave, and receive—over, and over, and over again—if you practice that in your marriage / especially, in the early years—it doesn't mean it's ever going to be easy. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I asked Barbara how she would summarize our marriage. I was kind of hoping for “romantic,” [Laughter] “chill bumps”— Barbara: —“wonderful.” Dennis: You know? But instead, you said? Barbara: “It's been hard.” Dennis: “Hard work.” Barbara: “Hard work”; yes. 19:00 Dennis: Lots of hard work. I think a lot of young couples—and for that matter, older couples—are starting out marriages today not really expecting it to be as challenging and to demand perseverance like it does Bob: I just have to come back around here because you're right in this section of your book that—not only did your marriage start off with fishing—but through the years you've learned to enjoy hunting with your husband? [Laughter] Is that true? Barbara: Well, not by his definition; no. Not by— Dennis: I was waiting for the answer to that question. Bob: I'm going to read to you what you wrote. Barbara: Okay; okay. Read what I wrote. Bob: “And I have learned to appreciate hunting.” Barbara: Yes, “appreciate it.” Bob: Maybe “appreciate” is a better word than— Barbara: “Appreciate” is a better word. Yes Bob: “I actually went with him on an elk hunt a few years ago— Barbara: Yes. I did. Bob: — “with the camo, the face paint, and the human scent killers sprayed on my body.” Barbara: [Laughing] I did! Barbara and Bob: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] Bob: That's what you say right here: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter]  20:00  “We hiked and hiked and snuck up on a herd of elk hiding behind trees like clandestine spies following a double agent down a dark alley in Eastern Europe. It was really fun!” Barbara: It was fun! [Laughter] Bob: But the point is that we're going to face these differences in the first years of our marriage.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Some of them crop up ten years in—fifteen. It's a life-long process of understanding “We're different,” and making those adjustments. Barbara: Exactly. That really is the point that I'm trying to make with these girls—is that the differences are there—they're not to be changed and they're going to be there for life. I think we somehow assume, early on, that a lot of this stuff is going to subside, or change, or moderate; but who we are is who we are.  I'm just amazed at how little really changes over time. You either fight it, and resent it, and resist it, or you join and learn to actually enjoy it and appreciate it.  21:00 Now, do I love to go hunting? No. I enjoyed that because it was active. We were hiking in the mountains, and it was beautiful. Dennis: And it was warm. Barbara: And it was reasonably warm; yes. But the kind of hunting that he is often inviting me to go on—which I have refused—is the kind where you get up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, in the winter, and you go sit. You can't talk / you can hardly breathe, and it's freezing. [Laughter] Hiking in the mountains—we could talk as we went—until we actually saw the elk / then we had to be quiet. It was a much different kind of experience so I could appreciate that one. But sitting in a deer stand—I've done it once and I'm not real interested in going there again. Bob: The point is—you don't have to be interested in going there again to make your marriage work. This is a part of the dance. One of your chapters in your book, “Marriage Is Like Beautiful Dancing”—  22:00 —“Part of the dance is understanding what we do together and where it's better to leave each other some space and some time to do things apart.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: I just think you have given some real great practical wisdom to a lot of wives in what you've written in your book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's brand new, and you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for the book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us. Now, as both of you guys know, this is our 40th anniversary as a ministry—2016. All year long, we are celebrating anniversaries. Today, we want to congratulate Abigail and Angelo Pinheiro. They live in Princeton, New Jersey. They listen to FamilyLife Today on WFIL. They're celebrating 21 years of marriage today. “Congratulations!” to the Pinheiros—“Happy Anniversary!”  23:00 We'd love to help you celebrate your anniversary this year. In fact, if you will go to FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date, we'll have some suggestions for you this year on how this year's anniversary can be the best anniversary ever. It's all because we are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries.” There are a lot of anniversaries that have happened over the years because of how God has used FamilyLife in people's lives for 40 years now. Thanks to those of you who make FamilyLife possible. We're listener-supported—we depend on your donations in order for this ministry to exist. This month, we're hoping that God might raise up, in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard, 20 new families who would join us as Legacy Partners. We're asking you—if you're a regular FamilyLife Today listener / if God's used this ministry in your life: “Would you be one of the families in your state to help support this program?”  It's easy to do—go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “DONATE.”  24:00 There is information there about becoming a Legacy Partner or about how you can make a one-time gift to FamilyLife Today. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” We'll explain the whole process to you when you call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk about the spiritual foundation in a marriage and how important that is. Barbara Rainey will be back with us. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                                From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: Why does it seem like moms are often not that interested in marital intimacy? Barbara Rainey understands. Barbara: It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else; and, yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority because, if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Barbara Rainey joins us today to talk about how she worked to make intimacy a priority in her marriage when there were six kids still living at home. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. With the season of romance and love in the air—and let me just remind some of the husbands who are listening—Valentine's Day is coming up. You may want to put that on your calendar or on your reminder list so that you don't arrive at that day and find yourself empty-handed. I've had that experience—it's not a fun experience when that happens. [Laughter] Do you know what I'm talking about? Dennis: No. [Laughter] Bob: Yes; you do! Dennis: Forty-four years; and I'm batting a thousand, Bob! [Laughter] Bob: Are you? Dennis: Ask her! She's here with us! Bob: We have an eye witness here. Barbara Rainey is joining us. Is that true? Has he never missed a Valentine's Day? Has he always had a card, or a gift, or something? Dennis: I've always shown up! Bob: Showing up is something else! [Laughter] Barbara: You have been present.  2:00 Although, I don't know that you've always been present on Valentine's because of travel. Dennis: Oh, yes! That's probably true. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Well, we thought it would be helpful today to discuss the area of sex, and intimacy, and romance, especially since this is something, Barbara—that you wrote about in your book that is now almost a year old—it's called Letters to My Daughters. Chapter 6 was all about helping your daughters and other young wives understand what's going on with this aspect of a marriage relationship. Dennis: And, at this point, I want to read a P.S. that Barbara puts at the end of one of these letters. Now, the book has nine chapters. There's only one chapter on sex, but it's a long chapter; and there are like half a dozen letters that pose a question to Barbara that she answers in the book. I just want to read this:  P.S. There are additional unseen benefits to regular sexual relations in marriage.  3:00 Three little facts I learned from one of our FamilyLife Today radio guests: Number one: The chemicals oxytocin and dopamine, when released in the brain, increase bonding; the reexpression of love and commitment strengthens mutual affection; and there is a sense of satisfaction in keeping intimacy alive, even if the actual experience isn't a great one. The last is my favorite, because in our marriage…  Now, this is really interesting for me to read on air; because, Bob, you know, we have people come up to us and they say: “You guys! All you do is present a perfect picture of marriage!” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Well, I'm about to dispel that [Laughter] in what I'm about to read that my wife wrote in this book! The last one is my favorite, because in our marriage, sex hasn't always been accompanied by fireworks! Among a lot of good-to-great experiences, we've also had some pretty lousy encounters… 4:00 Did you really write that in this book?! Barbara: I did. [Laughter] And I can tell you still don't like it very much. Dennis: I don't; I don't. [Laughter] I complained about this when I edited it, but you didn't take it out. …some pretty lousy encounters…some that left us both either disappointed or hurt. That makes the chemical facts all the more important, because even not-great sex still bonds us together. Nice to know, huh? [Laughter] Dennis: Honestly, I really appreciate Barbara's honesty about our marriage, because I think a lot of people out there are hurting. They think they're the only ones that ever had a lousy encounter around the sexual relationship. Bob: When you and Dennis, together, wrote the book, Rekindling the Romance, you talked about seasons of a marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: You talked about early love, and then you talked about, kind of, this middle season—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —where it just can kind of get routine.  5:00 A lot of husbands and wives, in the middle of raising kids and going through things—they hit that season and they think to one another, “This is it?” They're frustrated and they're disappointed. They wonder, if they switch partners, if things would get better for them. Dennis: Or, let me tell you this—Barbara spoke to one group of women who talked about a no-sex marriage, where people just give up / toss in the towel and say, “We're done.” Bob: And we've talked to couples, who have said, “It's been two years” / “…three years since we've been intimate with one another. We're committed, and we still love each other; but we've just kind of given up on that area of our marriage.” You would say to a wife, who says, “We've given up and we're content, and it's working out for us,”—what would you say? Barbara: I would say that's a dangerous assumption. I think that it's a very real possibility in a lot of marriages, because— 6:00 —you're right—there is a middle ground in marriage, where it's just hard work; because you have so many demands on both of your lives. There's not much energy left over; there's not much enthusiasm; there's not much rest. It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else.  Yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority; because if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else, which is why there are so many affairs. There are so many couples, who are splitting up and finding new partners, because it is exciting. They're finding that excitement that they once had in the early days of their marriage. 7:00 But it's not going to satisfy; it's not going to replace; it's not going to be better. It's actually going to be more complicated.  I really believe, and I've repeated it multiple times in my book, that God is big enough to change any marriage. I strongly believe that His Word is true when He said, “Nothing is too hard for Me.” You may look at your marriage, and you may go: “This is impossible! This is just too hard! I don't think there's any way out.” I want you to know—I've felt that way. I remember feeling that way at different times in those middle years of marriage, when we were swamped with kids and life. It felt too hard; but I knew that God meant what He said when He said, “Nothing is impossible for Me.” So, therefore, if I believe in God—and I do—then I have to take Him at His Word. I have to go to Him and say: “This feels impossible. This feels too difficult, but I know that You can bring life back to our marriage.”  8:00 If you don't quit, then there's always the hope of the redemption—there's the hope of God bringing new life back into your marriage. But when you quit, you've basically slammed the door on the possibility of God working a miracle. I think that's a tragedy. Dennis: And there's a biblical admonition that Paul gives us from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. He said, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise, the wife to her husband.” It goes on to talk about the wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and the husband doesn't have authority over his body, but the wife does. What I think Paul is exhorting us to here is that you've got to pay attention to one of the strongest drives in humanity. I got to thinking about this, and there are really only a couple of drives, I think, such as the need for oxygen and the need for water and food that would supplant sexuality.  9:00 Bob: You think survival might be a little ahead? Dennis: Well, those are both survival categories; but the point is—the urge for two people to merge was put there by God. I've thought about this many times. It's a good thing, in most marriages, that one of the two of you has a stronger desire to be with the other in the area of sexuality. Why? Because if one of you didn't have a pursuit, what might happen? You'd just have two people, spinning plates, off doing their own thing, and occasionally coming back, like roommates at a house to be able to maybe touch each other with eyesight, but never emotionally—never in depth, with a true, real relationship—the way God designed it in marriage. I think God, in His ingenuity, has made something powerful here that too often has been called “dirty.”  10:00 It really is a healthy desire for two people to become one.  Bob: So this brings up the issue, then, Barbara: “How would you coach a wife? Is it ever appropriate for her to say, ‘No, not now / not tonight—I'm not interested right now.' How should she say that? And what are the legitimate reasons for her to say, ‘I can't be with you'? Is it because, ‘I'm too tired,' or because, ‘You hurt me the other day'? What works here?” Barbara: Well, first of all, I think she does have a responsibility to be honest with her husband. I think that faking it—faking being together sexually—is not going to accomplish anything. If there is emotional distance between you—and you're feeling hurt because of something he said or if you really are so exhausted that you just can't function anymore that day—those are real life issues that we all deal with and we all feel. 11:00 The purpose of sex and of coming together is for intimacy—it's for transparency / it's for sharing our lives together. I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying it—I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman expressing how she feels or what her needs are—because to not do that is being disingenuous / that's not transparency. If the goal is transparency / the goal is intimacy and oneness, you have to be real / you have to be honest. Now, the way you do that, I think, is what's most important. That is, you can say, “I just can't tonight,” or “I feel like we've got to finish talking about this argument that we had two days ago,” or whatever it might be.  It's the way in which you communicate that that matters to your husband. It must be done with respect; it must be done with commitment; it must be done with love. You say something like: “I need you to know what I'm feeling. Can we talk about this now, or should we talk about it later?”  12:00 “I need some resolution in this area of our relationship.” If you communicate that you're committed to him and you say: “I'm committed to you, and I'm going to work this out. I want to be with you, just not tonight,” or “…just not right now.” I think that's perfectly acceptable as long as “not right now” doesn't turn into two years. I think it needs to be an agreement between a husband and a wife—they talk about it, and they find a solution together that works for both of them. It has to be mutual. Bob: That's 1 Corinthians 7 again; isn't it? Dennis: It is. Paul goes on to say: “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement, for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer. But then, come back together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” I mean, we live in a highly-sexualized culture.  13:00 We've got to understand one another.  Here's where Barbara's book does an outstanding job of helping young wives, and for that matter, older wives understand their husbands in this area—and how they are made by God—and that it's good—it's not bad / it's not evil.. They should bless their husband and not ignore him. If you need to say, “Not tonight, Sweetheart,” don't ignore it tomorrow night, and the next night, and the next night, and the next night. Bob: So the wife who is feeling, tonight: “I think he might be interested. I just—maybe if I just go to bed early—I don't say anything / I just fall— you know, he comes in and finds me asleep. Then, he'll leave me alone.” She gets a little passive-aggressive with how she handles this. She finds ways to dodge or avoid. Dennis: Do you think a guy doesn't know this? Barbara: Yes! He does. Dennis: Yes; he does! Bob: So, to that wife—you'd say: “It's time to get this out in the open and have the conversation”? 14:00 Barbara: Yes; I do. I think it's much better to talk about it. I mean, I think it's a temptation for all of us women to want to kind of just avoid it and hope it will go away when we're too tired, or overwhelmed, or whatever. But making it go away isn't the solution. It's not the solution to any kind of a disagreement, or an impasse, or something that's between you, as husband and wife. It's like the part that Dennis read earlier from my book—even not-so-great sex is bonding. It's remembering what's true / it's remembering the value that God places on your marriage and on the sexual part of your marriage relationship. It's going to him and saying: “I am really exhausted, but I sense that you might be interested in making love tonight,” or “…having sex tonight. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about a solution? Can we figure out what we want to do together so that we're mutually agreeing?” She's not controlling by being passive, and going to sleep ahead of time, and hoping he won't notice.  15:00 Does that make sense? Bob: It does! What do you say, then, to the wife who says, “You know what? Thirty pounds ago, he was attractive. Today, I'm just not attracted to him.” Or she says, “Thirty pounds ago, I felt attractive.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: “And now, I don't feel desirable. Even though he says he's interested, I think, ‘How can you be? Because I look at myself in the mirror and I don't feel attractive.'” What do you say about those issues? Barbara: Well, I think those are just further reflections of our need for transparency and our need for oneness. We got married to be acceptable to one another. We got married to know one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses. So when we gain weight or when things change about us, are we still committed? Are we still called to love one another? Are we still committed to making our marriage all that God wants it to be for as long as we both shall live?  Well, we have to learn to love one another in our weaknesses.  16:00 We have to learn to love one another in our imperfections. Yes; it may have been easier when you were both in your 20s and you were both—whatever attracted you to each other—but marriage wasn't built for just when we're in our 20s. Marriage was built for a lifetime. You are going to go through trials and difficulties, and both of you are going to change. Is God big enough to give you the kind of love that will last?—the kind of intimacy that you got married for in those years when you are challenged with health issues, or weight issues, or whatever it is? Dennis: And I know a dad who took his daughters aside—they had several daughters—and he just talked to them about the importance of your attractiveness to your husband: “You need to do your job of being the best—the very best—magnet you can be to your man.” Now, we all know that there are these superstar models out there.  Bob: Right. 17:00 Dennis: You're never going to be able to compete at that level, but you know what? You can be a beautiful, attractive wife to your husband. One of the things I appreciate about Barbara is—even when she says she doesn't feel pretty, she's still incredibly attractive to me. I just appreciated her for how she's paid attention to the process of aging. I mean, 44 years—that means our listeners know we're no longer teenagers in our 20s; okay? Forty-four years of marriage—I mean, you've got a lot of gravity to fight by the time you get there. So the point is: “Do you care enough to love your husband in the way that speaks love to him?” Barbara: And it's not just about the exterior; because I think what we're talking about right now—people tend to think it's the exterior. It's not! What makes a person beautiful—what makes a man or a woman beautiful—is our hearts.  18:00 If we pay attention to our hearts, we pay attention to learning to love well, and to do what God has called us to do as men and as women, then we're going to be attractive to one another. Because when Dennis serves me, and denies himself for me, and when he does the kinds of things that I know cost him something—and he's doing it because he loves me—that's attractive to me. I mean, I appreciate that / I respond to that. Any woman alive will do that; because, when she sees a man sacrificing for her—we're just built to respond to that—and vice-versa—when women serve their husbands and love their husbands, that's what makes us attractive. Bob: We've been focusing on your counsel to young wives because, again, that's the subject of the book you've written: Letters to My Daughters. I did want to, before we're done, go back 22 years and let our listeners hear a clip of advice that you shared for husbands in this area of sex and romance, back when we recorded a series on FamilyLife Today, back in 1995—   19:00 Dennis: This is scary! [Laughter] Barbara: It is! Bob: —called—do you remember 1995? Do you remember being 22 years younger than you are now? Barbara: Yes, but that was a long time ago! [Laughter] Bob: Well, we're going to hear this clip in just a minute. Let me, first, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of your book, Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online at our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order your copy of Barbara Rainey's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order a copy when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, when you're on the website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there's a banner there that says, “Romance Me.”  20:00 If you click that, there's a quiz you can take to talk about your romantic style and your spouse's romantic style and to see where there's compatibility and where there might be areas for growth. Click on that when you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can share the romance quiz with friends on Facebook® or on Twitter®. We just thought this would be something fun for you to do and just see how you match up in the area of romance. Let me also say a quick word of thanks to those folks who made today's program possible—it's those of you who support this ministry. Particularly, we want to thank those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners and who provide the financial stability / the backbone for this daily radio program. You really are partners with us in this outreach to marriages and families, all around the world, as we work to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We appreciate your partnership with us. 21:00 If you're able to help with a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book called Moments with You. It's our thank-you gift if you make a one-time donation or if you make your first gift as a Legacy Partner. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more or to make a donation. Orcall 1-800-FL-TODAY, and you can donate over the phone. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, we promised our listeners that they were going to get a chance to hear some advice that you shared to husbands. We were recording a series called “Creating a More Romantic Marriage.” We were just asking you to help husbands understand how women think on this issue of romance, and intimacy, and sex in marriage. Dennis: Is this the story about Saran Wrap? [Laughter] Barbara: No!! [Laughter] Bob: Stop it! 22:00 Barbara: It's a story about “a + b = c”; right? Bob: Ah, she knows where we're headed! [Laughter] Listen to this clip from 22 years ago: [Previous Interview] Barbara: I don't think that a woman wants to feel pegged; I don't think she wants to feel figured out, button-holed, taken advantage of—whatever you want to call it. I think that that defeats the essence of love. Again, I think that a husband needs to live with her in an understanding way, and to love her as Christ loved the church, and then she will respond to that. Bob: So it sounds to me like the message here to men is: “Once you've found what really communicates love to your wife,—  Dennis: —“don't ever do that again!” [Laughter] Bob: That's right. Barbara: Noooo! Bob: — “she will realize it, and she will change the rules. Barbara: That's not true. Bob: “And tomorrow it's going to be something completely different!” [Laughter] Barbara: It makes us sound schizophrenic. Bob: But that's what it feels like for men sometimes! Barbara: I know! Dennis: Well, it feels like it to a man—that, here, he is doing his best to love his wife— Barbara: I understand. Dennis: —and she throws away the rule book. Barbara: I do. 23:00 Dennis: And she says: “I don't want a rule book. I don't want to be figured out.” Barbara: It sounds awful! [Laughter] It really does. Bob: But it's true; isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true. I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times and she loves it; and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged and she doesn't ever want them again for the rest of her life. I think there needs to be variety / there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old, prescribed pattern.  [Studio] Bob: So, 22 years later, it still can't be a formula. Is that what you're saying?  Barbara: That is correct. It cannot be a formula. Women still want to be pursued / we still want to be figured out. I think it's a very good thing. Dennis: I'm Dennis Rainey, and that's real family life! [Laughter] Bob: I was waiting for you to say, “I approve this message,”— Barbara: Yes!  Bob: —but you didn't say that; did you? Barbara: No. Dennis: That was back last fall—we can't say that anymore. [Laughter]  24:00 No; it's really important that men live with their wives in an understanding way and that a husband understands that his wife needs to be loved. That's a lifetime assignment. What communicates love to your wife will be different than mine, and what communicates love to your wife today will be different in a decade. It will grow / it will mature.  I'll tell you what you have, as you move into the twilight years of life, you're going to have a great relationship that you wouldn't want to swap out with anybody, even though there've been some very, very difficult times. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Thinking Biblically about Mission Guests:                      Dennis and Barbara Rainey                       From the series:       The Art of Parenting: Mission and Releasing (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Dennis Rainey has a provocative, engaging question for parents to ask their children. Dennis: “If you could do anything in the world and couldn't fail, what would you do and why?” And then maybe toss this one out at the dinner table—it's by A.W. Tozer—“God is looking for people through whom He can do the impossible. What a pity we plan to do the things we can only do by ourselves.” Kids need to realize that if God is their God, they need to make their plans large. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, February 21st. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Are your children setting big goals? Do they have big dreams about how God might use them in the future? We're going to talk today about how you stir that up in your child's heart. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We have spent a lot of time over the last six/seven months talking about parenting—actually, for the last year. I'm going all the way back to when our movie, Like Arrows, came out in theaters a year ago— Dennis: That's right. Bob: —and then the video series for the Art of Parenting™ came out shortly after that. Your book, The Art of Parenting, was released in September. We've been talking about parenting quite a bit; and of course, this is something you've been studying and reflecting on for decades. Dennis: This is a passion of both Barbara's and mine; and by the way, she joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. Barbara: Thank you much; glad to be here. Dennis: For a little while longer, at least, welcome back. Barbara: A little while longer. [Laughter] Bob: A little while longer—yes; we shared with listeners earlier this week about the change that is coming. Dennis: That's right! Dave and Ann Wilson are going to be stepping into our shoes, and they are going to become the hosts of FamilyLife Today.  2:00 We've been at this for almost 26-and-a-half years, not quite. Bob: Yes. Dennis: But we've had the privilege of doing over 6,000 broadcasts that listeners have paid attention to dutifully and have been listening to what we've said here. Hopefully, we have helped you in your most important relationships in life. It's kind of fitting, Bob, I think, that Barbara and I are here talking about this final pillar of raising kids, which is giving your child a mission and releasing them.  Something like FamilyLife Today can't die with my hands or Barbara's hands tightly gripped around the microphone saying: “No, no, no! You can't have someone else lead this!” We're all meant to pass it on—to pass the baton. We're excited to be able to do that. Dave and Ann Wilson have been in ministry for a number of years, and I think our listeners are going to love them. 3:00 I believe, for FamilyLife Today and FamilyLife®, the best is yet to be. Bob Lepine is still going to be at the microphone, so I'm excited. What about you, sweetheart? Barbara: I am too. We've known Dave and Ann for years. We love their enthusiasm; we love their energy. They are both very biblically-anchored, and they will just do a fabulous job. In fact, I think they'll do a better job, in many ways, than we did— Dennis: I think you're right. Barbara: —because they're just—they're great people, and everybody's going to love them. Bob: We've heard from them already this week. We're going to hear from them again next week. It is nice when you can make a handoff to friends and people who you admire and respect; and that's the case with Dave and Ann. Dennis: Kindred spirit friends.  By the way, just a transition to today's broadcast—because I want to get on with that—we've been talking, as you mentioned, Bob, for a number of months about the essence of raising children. We talked about how the Scriptures really break it down into four categories.  4:00 The first one is the Great Commandment, which is teaching your child how to have a relationship with God and with others. The second area of parenting is that of building character into your children—teaching them to be wise and not be a fool; teaching them right from wrong; how to choose what's right; obey God—that's what the Book of Proverbs is about. A little earlier this year, we talked about the third area, which is the issue of identity—emotional, spiritual, and sexual identity. The Bible speaks clearly to all of those areas. This last one that we're talking about today is really something that Barbara and I will probably fight one another for the microphone, because we both feel strongly about this; and that's giving your child a sense of mission—helping them discover why God put them here, on the planet, in the first place. It's really spoken of in one of my favorite verses that I've quoted many, many times, here, on FamilyLife Today—Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 10:  5:00 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Did you hear what Paul was saying there? He was saying we are God's work of art. Your child is God's work of art. He has prepared that child for an assignment that is unique to him. In doing research for this book, we found out that, way back in the 18th century, there was a doctor who discovered fingerprints. He was the guy who discovered that each person has a unique fingerprint on every one of their fingers and thumbs. I think it's a statement of how God has a unique assignment/a unique ability built into every child. What your assignment is, as a parent—listen to me—your assignment is, as a pair of parents, or as a single parent, or as a blended family— 6:00 —you have to help your child discover who he or she is and cheer them on in the race of life, cheering them on to become all that God called them to be. Bob: When we were working on the Art of Parenting video series and we created the movie, Like Arrows, the reason the movie is called Like Arrows is because of what it says in Psalm 127, verse 4—that children are “like arrows in the hands of a warrior.” You've said many times arrows are meant to be aimed and released. We're going to talk about the aiming part of that today—how we help point our kids in the right direction before we release them. You want to do this in kind of rapid-fire style. Dennis: We did an earlier broadcast, which I call the “Twitter version”— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —real quick, cut-to-the-chase, practical, biblical—but helping you be successful, as parents. Barbara and I are going to tag-team this and go every other one. We're going to give you our best tips on helping your child find his or her mission in their lives. 7:00 Bob: Okay; who's going to—are you going to give us the first tweet, Barbara? Barbara: I will do that with delight. The first one is: “Evaluate your own life.” You know, parenting starts, so often, with us. We have to know what we believe/what's important to us before we can ever pass it on to our kids. So that's what this is about. Evaluate your own life: “Are you a person on mission? How would you describe the mission that God has given you? Are you excited about fulfilling God's mission, and are you talking about it with your children as you do life together?” You can't teach your children how to have a mission if you don't have one yourself. Dennis: Most of the important lessons in life are caught, not taught; so what's your mission? Second one: “Ask God to give you discernment, as you raise your child, to spot his or her gifts, abilities, passions, and burdens.” What we call it is: “What is his or her missional DNA?”  8:00 Ask God, by the Holy Spirit, to teach you, as they emerge from their lives—as you raise them all the way through the toddler years, the elementary years, junior high, high school, and beyond. Just speak truth into your children: “You know, you're pretty good when you're championing this cause.” Help them spot what their mission is, and then speak it into their lives. Let them know you've seen it, multiple times. Barbara: Number three is: “Affirm and encourage your child when you see him or her operating in what appears to be a sweet spot or a gift, and let them know that you see that and recognize it.” There will be really awkward years when you may not see much for awhile. Dennis: Yes! [Laughter] Barbara: But when you do—when you do spot something that they're really good at—then affirm that, and mention it, and help him or her see it too. Dennis: This fourth one is very practical: “Use a date night with your spouse to sharpen your inventory of your child's life.”  9:00 Bob, many, many times, you know, Barbara and I had a date night. We'd go out and we'd talk about our calendar / we'd talk about what we're going to be doing; and we'd also talk about each child. Keep a record of what you're talking about each child and sharpen your inventory of who they are, what they are good at, and how you can better cheer them on. Barbara: Number five is: “As you decide what your mission is, as mom and dad/as parents, talk about that with your kids. If possible, begin to bring them into the process; so, if your mission in life is something you include your kids on, bring them in on it with you. And then, as your kids get older, start reading books to them or with them or give them books to read that will help them think through how to have a mission. Dennis's book, Choosing a Life That Matters, would be a good one; Rick Warren's book, The Purpose-Driven Life; and there are probably others.  10:00 Help your child, especially in the teenage years, read books that help him think through, “What is my purpose?” Bob: And when you're talking about your life on mission, it could be what the two of you are doing together—something that you're involved with—but it can just be how you're living out your faith in whatever arena God's put you in— Barbara: That's right; that's right. Bob: —whether that's the workplace, whether it's clubs or activities, or people you're interacting with—it's helping your kids see how you're integrating faith into the world God's called you into; so that they can understand, “Oh, this is how I do it in my world,”—right? Barbara: Exactly. Dennis: As Barbara was reading that, I was thinking about the time we bought—I don't know how many—packages of hot dogs to host an evangelistic outreach in our home for junior high and high school kids. We were ready for 100 kids. I mean, we had the buns, we had the dogs—and seven kids came. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. Dennis: We ate those dogs for a long, long time. [Laughter] You know what the kids caught in that? They caught the passion that Mom and Dad wanted to be a part of reaching out to others, spiritually, and helping them find hope and help in Jesus Christ.  11:00 The interesting thing is—by the time we quit, we had over 400 kids coming out to meetings at school—to host kids to find out about Jesus Christ. Number six: “Fan the flames of your child's dreams.” Perhaps consider asking this question: “If you could do anything in the world and couldn't fail, what would you do and why?” Then maybe toss this one out at the dinner table—it's by A.W. Tozer—“God is looking for people through whom He can do the impossible. What a pity we plan to do the things we can only do by ourselves.” Kids need to realize that if God is their God, they need to make their plans large. Barbara: Number seven is: “If possible, use testing services as children move into their middle teens and beyond.” This is something that Dennis and I did with some of our kids, not all of them.  12:00 We took them through some different testing things to help them see what their innate strengths were, what their weaknesses were, and what they could develop and potentially become. It sort of expanded their view of themselves; it helped them see themselves objectively. Bob: Some of this was personality and temperament, but some of it was vocational aptitude. Barbara: Aptitude; yes. Dennis: Yes; that's exactly right. Barbara: It was really helpful. Dennis: Number eight: “Encourage and affirm small and big steps of faith for your kids.” I think this is an area, Bob, where a lot of parents miss an opportunity to affirm their children when they step out and take little steps of faith or maybe a big one. Call it to the attention of your other children or, maybe, with adults. Children take steps of faith; be sure to point it out and affirm them as they do it. Barbara: I agree. Number nine is: “Teach your kids how to process failure.” I think this one is really, really important; because what we tend to do with our kids is— 13:00 —we want them to win, especially as moms, I think. We want our kids to succeed; we don't want them to fail. And yet, failure can often be the best teacher, because we learn in life through our failures.  I remember we used to read stories about famous people to our kids. The story of Thomas Edison was one that we read. He failed thousands of times before he finally invented the lightbulb. I think it's helpful, in this pressure-driven world, that our children understand that it's okay to fail and make mistakes. Dennis: Number ten: “Be a person of faith too.” Sometimes, your pushing your kids out on a mission is going to come back and test your own faith. Do you remember, sweetheart, when our son came home and told us he was going to spend his senior year in college on the mission field in a former Soviet state in Estonia, introducing Estonian college students to Jesus Christ? Barbara: Yes; I remember. 14:00 Dennis: He was going into Communist block housing to live and drove this car that was—we went over there, Bob—and it was a joke. They went over there; and in a period of a year, they led one person to Christ. Today, that ministry in Tallinn, at the university there, is student-led by dozens of Estonian college students, in some part due to Benjamin's, our son's, step of faith—and when his parents had to take a step of faith, too, and quench their fears and go, “Okay, God; we're going to trust You with our kids.” Barbara: Amen; we did. Number 11—this one sort of goes along with it—Number 11 is: “Pray with and for your child for the fulfillment of God's mission for his or her life.” We did pray for our son, and we prayed for our other kids too. Oftentimes, at night, when we put them to bed, we prayed that they would know what God had called them to do and that they would see what God's purposes were for their lives. 15:00 Dennis: Number 12: “Read Ephesians 2:10 as a family.” This is a good one; because what you can do is assign this verse to, maybe, an older child, who can dig into the Bible and do a little Bible study and share a few minutes—three to five minutes—of thoughts about what this verse teaches. It's back to the verse that says, “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”  There are other verses we recommend here: Matthew 6:33, which talks about seeking first the kingdom of God; Matthew 28:19-20, which is the Great Commission. These are all commands of Jesus Christ that the church today needs to take seriously. Our young people, I think, are capable of far more than we're challenging them with. Barbara: Agreed. Number 13 is something else you might discuss at the dinner table, and this isn't a verse.  16:00 This is an Ethiopian proverb, and it goes like this: “The feet take a person where one's heart is.” That would just be an interesting conversation to have—maybe it's not at the dinner table; maybe it's at night before bed, or maybe when you're driving your kids to school. Just talk about: “What does that mean? What does it mean to follow what's in your heart?” because God often puts desires in our hearts that He wants us to fulfill. That's a part of discerning His plan. Dennis: My son, Benjamin, recently called me, the other day. He mentioned number 14—he said, “This book ought to be required reading of every junior high and high school student in America.” He was speaking of Katie Davis Majors' book, Daring to Hope. Number 14 is: “Assign one of your children to read Katie's book, Daring to Hope, and then give a report/a book report to the family.” 17:00 Tighten your seatbelts for this is quite a story of a young lady's faith, who stepped out, as a young college-aged student, and began adopting Ugandan girls. I forget the number she's up to now—is it 13? Bob: I think she's adopted 13, and then I think she and her husband have had their own biological child. They live in Uganda. Katie was working in an orphanage there; in fact, her story is one that we featured on FamilyLife Today. If listeners want to go to our website, they can listen to the podcast and hear her share the story. That may be something for the family to listen to together. Dennis: I would, Bob. I know this—when Benjamin called me, he said, “Dad, this is one of the best books I have ever read.” Katie is in her late 20s/early 30s now? Bob: Yes. Dennis: But it is a compelling story of someone who just took God at His Word and decided to go do something that represented the heart of God for orphans. You know what?— 18:00 —that is pure and undefiled religion. Bob: Let's say, as a parent, you have one child, who wants— Dennis: Now wait a second, Bob—we did it! Bob:  You want me to acknowledge all 14. [Laughter] Dennis: All 14! Bob: By the way, all 14 of these are available on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com— Dennis: —and they're also available in our book, The Art of Parenting. Bob: Yes; and you can order the book, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can download the list if you'd like to. I'm just thinking of the parents, who are going: “We have three kids. One wants to be a veterinarian; one wants to be a professional baseball player; and the third one doesn't know what she wants to do. How do I talk about mission when what my kids are interested in is not particularly spiritual?” Barbara: Well, I think that it's helping them think through mission in a broad viewpoint too. I've always believed that medicine is ministry. We have a son-in-law, who's a doctor. We've been on medical mission trips with doctors and nurses.  19:00 Those fields aren't strictly defined as ministry, but they are. I think that—one of the things that Dennis and I did is that we took our kids on missions trips. It was one of the ways that we wanted to help expose them to the things that God was doing in the world. So, as a family, you might take your kids and go on a week-long mission trip to Guatemala with your church, or wherever your church is doing missions. Even if your child does want to become a veterinarian or whatever, they may change; but you can also come alongside that natural desire and expose them to things that God is doing around the world. Dennis: I think it's very important that we don't create a sense of someone, who is not in vocational Christian ministry—that if you're not doing that, you're a second-class citizen in God's kingdom. Bob: Yes— Barbara: I agree. Bob: —or you're not “on mission.” Dennis: Exactly! Barbara: Right; right. Dennis: I think it's interesting—I think all of our kids are in ministry.  20:00 I wouldn't say that any of them, right now, are in full-time vocational Christian work. Our son, Samuel, is a counselor—that's as close as it gets to full-time vocational work. And yet, we're applauding them as they fulfill God's assignment for who He made them to be. They're raising their families, and they're also taking their kids on mission trips. They're exposing them to God's work and what He's doing around the country and around the world. Bob: When any of us bring biblical thinking and God's love and grace for others into whatever arena we're in, now, all of a sudden, that arena has become a mission field. I think for us, as parents, that's what we have to be helping our kids understand. We're not sure what the unique “good works that God prepared beforehand, that you should walk in” are yet; but whatever they are, you can bring a biblical worldview and you can bring God's love and grace into that arena; and it can be transformative, whatever it is. 21:00 Dennis: That's exactly right. You know, one of the most frequent comments made to Barbara and me, now that we have stepped out of leading FamilyLife, is—people say, “So, what are you doing now that you're retired?” [Laughter] It's kind of like: “Well, you finished that. Now, you're just off— Barbara: —“doing nothing.” Dennis: “—doing nothing”?—“kind of kicked it in neutral”? I have to tell you—this is an exciting time to be alive! Bob: Yes. Dennis: Barbara and I are not going to rust out; we're not going to go away. It may be that we're not heard on 1,000 stations across the country, but the checkout lady at the counter at Kroger may hear from me; and I may give the guy who picks up our garbage a copy of our book, Stepping Up—or the electrician, who does the repair work—I did that the other day. We're all on mission; and we're going to be doing some things, going forward. We'll be talking about that in the coming days ahead on FamilyLife Today.  22:00 But we have an assignment that we're going to complete. We're not retiring in the traditional sense—we're not withdrawing from battle—I don't think God made us to ever retire. Barbara: I agree. Dennis: I think we should be about the battle all the way to the finish line, doing only what God has called you to do, and where God is at work. Frankly, both Barbara and I have been praying this—we don't want to be doing anything where God isn't already there and being at work in people's lives. Bob: Well, and I don't think it's just the checkout lady or the garbage man who are going to be hearing from you in the days ahead. [Laughter] I think the rest of us are going to be hearing from you as well. We do, again, have the list of ways you can help your children think, missionally, as you raise them. That's available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. We also have your book, The Art of Parenting, which we are making available today to any listener who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation.  23:00 You know that the whole reason why hundreds of thousands of people are being impacted every day by the help and the hope they hear on this program is because there's a small group of listeners, who say: “This is important. This matters for me, for my family, for our community, for my city, for the world.” Those of you who support the ministry—you have made today's program possible.  Now, we're asking you to help make tomorrow's program possible by going online and making a donation to support FamilyLife Today. When you do, upon your request, we'll send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey's book, The Art of Parenting. You can donate at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Be sure to ask for your copy of the book, The Art of Parenting, when you make a donation. If you'd like more information about the video series—the Art of Parenting—that's available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com as well. Our movie, Like Arrows—you remember that's a part of the Art of Parenting— 24:00 —the movie is now available for purchase as well. You can order a DVD from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about letting go—releasing our children to life/to thriving on their own. Dennis and Barbara Rainey will join us again tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Lessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 1) - Crawford LorittsLessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 2) - Crawford LorittsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Most Important Things Guest:                         Crawford Loritts                    From the series:       Lessons from a Father Who Was Always There (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: What's the right balance, as a parent, between protecting your children and letting them experience enough of life that they wind up with a few scars? Here's Dr. Crawford Loritts. Crawford: I understand the need to protect them from the evils, and the sin, and the hellishness that's in our culture; but I have to tell you—protection is not development. I'm terribly concerned about this movement among some of us that wants to hover over our kids—and pull them back and sanitize and sterilize their environments—in such a way that they don't interact with the evil world/a dark world, in which they were born to redeem, and impact, and be salt and light in! Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, March 13th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Where does protection fit into our priorities, as parents; and how much freedom should we give our children? We'll hear from Crawford Loritts on that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. When I was in high school, our choir sang a song that was based on the final instructions that King David gave to his son as David was dying and as Solomon was taking over. I don't know if choirs are allowed to sing songs that biblical in our day, but our high school choir sang this when I was growing up. It's stuck with me all these years—David's counsel to his son—from a father, who's dying. He had wise words to share with his son.  In fact, we're going to hear today from Crawford Loritts about how important and how powerful it is for a father to instruct, and coach, and model for his son what really matters. Dennis: Crawford is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia.  2:00 He is the father of four children / he's the husband of Karen, and they have ten grandchildren. As you listen to Crawford share this story from the Scriptures, I want you to think about what you're charging your kids with today. Are you challenging them with a high enough standard? Are you challenging them with the right goal? Are you challenging them with an eternal goal? I think, Bob, we need to be putting before our children a biblical standard for how they should live throughout their lives; and I think we ought to allow a story like this, from 1 Kings, Chapter 2, to be like the song that you said you remembered all the way back to your childhood—just that it might stick in our hearts and we carry the burden of realizing we need to shape and direct the next generation. Bob: I think we'll get some good coaching from Crawford, as moms and dads, to know: “What are the important things we should be focusing on as we pass on a legacy to our sons and our daughters?”   3:00 Here's Part Two of a message from Dr. Crawford Loritts on “Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It.” [Recorded Message] Crawford: In 1 Kings, Chapter 2, verses 1-4, David is dying / David is leaving—the legendary David. As he's dying, he calls his son, Solomon, in to make a grand handoff. David was consciously aware of the fact that legacies are not guaranteed—they are not guaranteed. And yet, Solomon was being tapped as next in line. David was about to go be in the very presence of God. It's almost as if, as you read the text, the emotional context is really compelling. It's as if David is reaching out and grabbing his son, Solomon, by the lapels and pulling him close. [Emotion in voice]  4:00 In these four verses, it's almost as if David is saying: “Son, this is what I've lived for. These are the footprints in the sand, and I need you to embrace what you were born for.” And parenthetically, as we raise our children—from the time they're little somethings / from the time they're tiny—we need to be whispering in their ears that they were born for the glory of God and for the plan and the purposes of God: “This is what you were born for, and everything in your life has to be lined up for your moment in history—that you're just passing through here. You're going to be very dead one day. One day, God's going to say, ‘Give Me back My breath.'  5:00 “What were you born for? What are you living for? What are you doing?”  It's amazing, when people are dying, how essence they are—all the other garbage, and all the other frills, and all the other stuff—it doesn't make any difference anymore. David is dying. As he dies, he charges Solomon with these three things—he charges Solomon to live courageously; he charges Solomon to live obediently; and he charges Solomon to live faithfully. I'll say a few words, and then I'll be done. First of all, he charges Solomon: “I want you to live, Solomon. I want you to live. I want you to live courageously.” Verse 1 says, “When David's time to die drew near, he commanded Solomon his son, saying, ‘I am about to go the way of all the earth.'”  6:00 Now, notice this line: “‘Be strong; show yourself a man,'”—“My time is up; it's coming to a close. The ball is being placed in your hands. Solomon, I am challenging you to press through the challenges and the opportunities of your responsibilities. I need you, Solomon, to step up.” In fact, in the Hebrew, the expression, “show yourself a man,” literally is, “become a man.” I think what David was saying to Solomon was: “Solomon, Solomon, Solomon—I need you to rise up to what you were born for.” Solomon was to become what being the king of Israel required—required.  I could get off into this, but I don't have time to do this. I actually think we coddle this generation a little bit too much— 7:00  —I actually think we soften them a little bit too much. We don't give them what they need. I believe the text doesn't say that perhaps David sensed some weakness in Solomon. Solomon was not like his daddy. David ran for 16 years, hiding out in caves from Saul. David was a tough dude, and David experienced some hard stuff—he didn't silver spoon it. Solomon grew up with a little bit more cotton around him, and a little more cushion around him, and a little more options, and a little more resources—he had stuff to choose from. David probably sensed in him: “Solomon, I—I don't know that you have the grit and the resilience that you need to do what needs to be done. You have to show yourself a man. Show yourself a man,”— 8:00 —conviction versus compliance.  I am concerned about how we are raising some of our kids. I understand the need to protect them from the evils, and the sin, and the hellishness that's in our culture—don't get me wrong—the margins are almost erased right now. I get that / I get that. We pray for our 11 grandkids and what they're going through; I mean, there are just too many opportunities for evil. But I have to tell you—protection is not development. I'm terribly concerned about this movement among some of us that wants to hover over our kids—and pull them back and sanitize and sterilize their environments in such a way—that they don't interact with the evil world/a dark world, in which they were born to redeem, and impact, and be salt and light in! David says: “Solomon; hey buddy, you have to step into some stuff. Live courageously—don't run from the challenges; but run to God to get what you need to face the challenges, Solomon.”  9:00 Secondly, he says, “Solomon, live obediently.” Tender words, here, in verse 3, “And keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in His ways and keeping His statutes, His commandments, His rules, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses.” When you do exposition, you always have to pay attention to the emotional context. I think this is biographical—I think David was saying to Solomon, in so many words: “Solomon”—it was not just about the Davidic covenant / not just about the promises of David—I think he had that in mind, because the text says so; but I think there's something else going on here. I think David wanted his son to love God's Word the way he did! He wanted him to cherish it the way he did: “Solomon, you need to bring your life in line with the truth of God's Word.  10:00 “You need to live it—not just speak it, not just quote it, not just argue your paradigms and all that stuff about it—but you need to live this stuff. You need to live it. You need to live it. You need to live it. You need to live it.” This is what David was saying to Solomon: “Solomon, listen to me, buddy; you can't do it, man. You can't do it. I need you to cherish this book. If you're going to be successful / if you're going to make it, you're going to have to walk with God; you're going to have to love this book; you're going to have to listen to this book.” David was telling Solomon: “Hey, buddy; don't get cute. Don't get cute. Don't think that because I'm your daddy, you're on the throne, and you've inherited this throne at a very important time—and I'll become a living legend, and this stuff is being passed off to you— 11:00 “—don't think that this is sustainable—that somehow or another, vicariously, my background you can broker and that will make you a good person. You need to walk with this, son—you need to love it.” We need to raise our kids to say: “You don't have to do me proud,” “You don't have to be anything that you think I want you to be,”—take that off the table—“But you do have to obey God.” But then he says, thirdly, “You have to live faithfully.” I suppose, technically, faithfulness is a subset of obedience—that's probably accurate—but I want to parse it out a bit here; because he says, here in verse 4, “…that the Lord may establish His Word that He spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons pay close attention to their way, to walk before Me in faithfulness with all their hearts…'”— 12:00 —what is he saying? David is saying: “Hey look. You know the mess in my life; okay?” David ended well, but he had some major “oops.” I believe he's saying: “You know the mess between me and your mama; okay—it's well-documented. [Laughter] It wasn't cool—you know about Nathan; you know about my brokenness; you know about my repentance. By the grace of God, I've gotten back on the right track, boy; and you have got to be faithful!”  13:00 In other words, “You have to remember where you came from and what's been placed in your hands.” You see, faithfulness means to obey God in the little things. It is a daily commitment to do the right, honorable things, and often the difficult things—often the difficult things. You see, to me, greatness is not notoriety / greatness is not recognition.  You know, I was being interviewed several years ago. Somebody said something / they heard something—and they used the words, “Boy, you're approaching greatness…” or something like that—first of all, they need to get out more; [Laughter] but when they said that, I said: “No, no, no, no; no. Greatness is buried, side by side, in Old Dominion Cemetery in Roanoke, Virginia—Crawford and Sylvia Loritts—because they were faithful/faithful.” 14:00 And David was telling his boy: “Every single day—in the small things / the big things; the things that people don't see, behind closed doors—get after it, Solomon. Get after it.” One of the greatest things you can do—rather than trying to raise your kids to be a great speaker, or a great athlete, or this kind of thing / this kind of thing—teach them how to just be consistent in following through on the noble, right things: “You hurt my heart, son. Why?—because: “Loritts, we don't steal,” / “You show up, boy. I heard you were late for that little job you had. Show up.” 15:00 Some time ago, my oldest son, Bryan, and I—we were speaking at—this was a few years ago—we were speaking at the Billy Graham Center at the Cove in Asheville, North Carolina. While we were there, I said to Bryan: “We have a break in the afternoon.” I said: “You know, do you want to go back down to Conover, North Carolina? It's less than an hour away. That's the old homestead—that's where Peter held forth, and my grandfather, Milton, and where my dad was born.” Bryan was excited, because he hadn't been there since he was a little guy. We went on down I-40 there, and got off at the Newton Conover exit, and snaked over the railroad tracks—I hadn't been there in years—back to Second Street. I was surprised I could find my way over there. As soon as you cross on Second Street, on the right-hand side is a little tiny church called Thomas Chapel AME Zion Church.  16:00 Interestingly enough, my grandfather had given the land for that little church to be built on. Behind the church, there's a cemetery. The cemetery, interestingly enough, was there before the church was there—there's a cemetery. About a half to almost two-thirds of the bodies in that cemetery are related to Lorittses.  As Bryan and I were walking around the cemetery, I was reminding him who some of these people were—you know: “That's Pop's brother, your Great-uncle Ordell,” and “That's Uncle Hayes, right there,” “Here's Uncle Emery,” and “There's Aunt Annie, right there,” “There's your Great-grandfather—my grandfather, Milton / Pop's dad,” and “There's his wife, Anna, right here.”  17:00 As I began to just tell him about these people, I was ambushed by emotion. I began to weep; and I said to Bryan—I said: “Son, these people paid your tuition. They paid your tuition.” I guess the charge I want to make to you today—as you look at your children, and you look at the future and look at a time that you cannot see, and you're making the investments in their lives—you're doing the drudgery, day in and day out—and you're correcting them, and disciplining them, and you're laughing with them, and you're going through the struggles / “Are they ever going to get out of my house?”—or all this stuff that's going on—keep in mind: “You're paying their tuition. What are you investing in them? 18:00 “Will they be able to live courageously? Will they live obediently, and will they live faithfully?” Holy Father, thank You for Your Spirit; thank You for Your power; thank You for Your grace. Thank You for what You mean to us.  Lord, the most intimidating thing we do, as a parent—You've entrusted with us those precious lives that bear the image of our great God. There's a devil out there; there are all kinds of mess. They have their own temptations and issues; but Spirit of the living God, we pray that You'll help us to roll up our sleeves so that we can look each one in the eye, when that moment comes, and say, “By the grace of God, I did the best I could.”  We love You, Lord Jesus.  19:00 Thank You for what You will do. In Jesus' name, Amen. [Studio] Bob: Again, today, we've been listening to the second part of a message from our friend, Crawford Loritts, the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia—a message that Crawford shared at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, their conference on parenting that was held, back last fall. It's a timely message; and one that we felt is important for our listeners as we try to live intentionally, as moms and dads, raising the next generation. Dennis: And Bob, as you know, Barbara and I have been working on a book called The Art of Parenting. It's going to be a part of, really, the largest resource launch in FamilyLife®'s 41-year history—that'll occur in May and, also, next summer—where we're going to be setting our sights on equipping one million parents to raise their children to fulfill God's design and blueprints for their lives. 20:00 I just want our listeners to get ready to maybe be a recipient of some of that training or to be a messenger. That's a part of what Crawford was talking about here—you've raised your children, intentionally; but you're also thinking about the next generation: “How can you send a living message to a time that you will not see?” Crawford spoke powerfully about that in his message, Bob, where he's really challenging us to outlive ourselves—live through our children / live through the generation to come—to make an impact upon their culture and the people they influence. Bob: If you missed any part of the message, you can go back and listen, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Let me also mention—there's information available there about a new resource that FamilyLife has been working on for more than a year now. It's an eight-session video series called FamilyLife's Art of Parenting™. It's going to be available for small groups; it's also going to be available, online, for moms and dads to go through—just the two of you working through it, if you'd like. 21:00 Crawford's son, Bryan, and his daughter-in-law, Korie, are one of the contributors to FamilyLife's Art of Parenting—so is Alistair Begg, and Kevin DeYoung, and Dr. Meg Meeker—there's a great list of folks who join you and Barbara on this video series. Again, you can get more information / you can watch a preview of The Art of Parenting when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and find out more about how you can order the material or how you can access it as soon as it's available in early May. We're kicking all of this off with a movie that we've created called Like Arrows. It's a movie that stars Alan Powell and Micah Lynn Hanson. Alex Kendrick has a role, as well; and Alex and Stephen helped us with the production of this film. It's in theaters two nights only, and we're hoping that our FamilyLife Today family—many of you—will make plans to join us on a Tuesday night/Thursday night. Bring your friends / pack the theaters, and come out to see Like Arrows.  22:00 Tickets are on sale now. You can find out more / you can see a trailer for the movie when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. If you have any questions, give us a call at 1-800-358-6329.  Finally, let me mention that we have copies of the book that Crawford Loritts has written, called Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It. It's available in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order Crawford's book, where he reflects on things he learned from his own father. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. You know, I mentioned this new parenting emphasis for FamilyLife. Our goal is to begin a movement of intentional parenting, not just in the church, but we want to take this content and deliver it to people, who aren't listening to FamilyLife Today / folks who may not be going to church currently.  23:00 We're developing strategies to help us put this content in the hands of people, who are right now far from God and far from the church, but people who are open to hearing what the Bible has to say about parenting. In the process, they'll get a chance to hear the gospel; and who knows how God might use this series in their lives? If you'd like to help us reach more people with this content—we're calculating it's going to take about $10 per home to be able to get this material in the hands of folks, who are far from God and far from the church. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can make a donation to help support our efforts; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Of course, every donation you give helps advance the mission of FamilyLife. You help us reach more people more regularly with God's design for marriage and family—that's what we're all about here. So, again, you can give, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. When you do, we'll say, “Thank you,” by sending you a set of seven prayer cards designed for moms and dads or for grandparents to be praying more intentionally for your children or your grandchildren.  24:00 The prayer cards are our gift to you when you help support the work. We appreciate your partnership with us in the work we're doing, here, at FamilyLife Today. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow, when we're going to hear from another man about the impact his father had on his life. Rick Rigsby joins us tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. From Spiritual Scars to a Forever Family Guest:                         Diana Prykhodko                 From the series:       From Spiritual Scars to a Forever Family (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: For Diana Prykhodko, trying to figure out how to navigate life started earlier than it does for most of us—much, much earlier.  Diana: I was actually nine years old when I decided I needed to run away from my birth mom, because her abuse had escalated a particular night from bad to worse. She was very drunk one night, and she woke me up. She was really angry. She woke me up and said, “I need you to get up!”  She stormed into the kitchen, and she threw the pot of hot water all over me.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, September 1st. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today how Diana Prykhodko became a trophy of God's amazing grace. Stay tuned.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  1:00 We're going to leave our studio today and take you with us to an event where Dennis Rainey was recently—at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—that was held earlier this year in Nashville, Tennessee. Dennis had a chance to sit down with Diana Prykhodko and hear an amazing story of God's love and care for orphans.  [Recorded Interview]   Dennis: We're going near the orphan. I thought of Job, Chapter 29, verse 12. Job gives his defense and talks about what he had done with his life—he said, “I delivered the poor who cried for help and the fatherless who had none to help him.”  We have a guest with us on FamilyLife Today who knows about people who have been obedient to what Job did. Diana Prykhodko joins us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome to the broadcast, Diana.  Diana: Thank you very much.  Dennis: Diana is—yes; you can welcome her. [Applause]   2:00 Diana is from the Ukraine. She has a great story of redemption, and I want you to take us back to your childhood. Tell us about the circumstances under which you grew up.  Diana: I grew up in Kiev, Ukraine. My birth mom was a single mom. We had no home/no place that we could consistently reside at. My birth mom was an alcoholic, a prostitute, and a drug user. She didn't know how to love me from the very beginning. As my earliest memory of her, she was very abusive verbally, emotionally, and physically. She took out a lot of her anger on me throughout my childhood.  Dennis: What do you remember most about those years growing up?   Diana: What I remember most was just the turmoil— 3:00 —the constant fear of her abandoning me, the constant fear of not knowing where we would sleep the next day / if she would find some guy for us to spend the night at his apartment and not knowing what that person would be like—just the ups and downs of an unstable home environment and the ups and downs of her anger.  And when she would drink, she was very abusive; but when she was sober, she was a totally different person. It was difficult for me to gauge and understand when she would be in a good mood or a bad mood.  Dennis: She ultimately had what would be the equivalent of a nervous breakdown— Diana: That's right.  Dennis: —and went to a mental hospital.  Diana: That's correct.  Dennis: Then, came back. You stayed with friends while she was gone. There was no other person to stay with.  Diana: That's right.  Dennis: What was it like when she came back?   Diana: Life was really chaotic. Her anger escalated. Things just went from bad to worse.  4:00 She was not protecting me / she was hurting me. She was drinking. She was trying to go to grocery stores and different places. She would hold my hand; and then, she'd walk away. I would be looking for her.  Dennis: You ultimately fled.  Diana: I did.  Dennis: You were how old when you ran away?   Diana: I was actually nine years old when I decided I needed to run away from my birth mom because of her abuse. Her abuse had escalated a particular night from bad to worse. She was very drunk one night. She woke me up and she said: “I need you to get up!  I want you to make me some borscht,”—which is a Ukrainian soup. We were poor. We didn't have anything. I said, “Mom, I don't really know how to cook; but I don't see any potatoes. I do not have the ingredients to make this food.”  Her anger just escalated so bad that she stormed into the kitchen, and she threw the pot of hot water all over me.  5:00 She ended up putting my face, with her whole weight bearing my face down on the burner on the stove. I tried to push her off of me, but her weight was more than I could bear. She ended up doing horrific things to me the rest of the night. I ran away from her after that episode because I knew that I could die with her— Dennis: Yes.  Diana: —or I could try on the streets, and I could try my luck and make my life better without her around.  Dennis: The streets for a nine year old—a nine year old girl. I mean, come on?  That had to be dangerous; huh?   Diana: It was very dangerous. I was on the streets for about a year. I found some friends. We ended up calling ourselves “The gang.”  We ended up filling our—it was our little circle, and we felt protected. We kind of took care of each other.  6:00 We would beg for money.  There were different ages. There was probably eight or ten of us, and we had a guy that was our leader. Then, we had the girls—we had the older girls / the younger girls. Our leader told the older girls needed to do the older girl things. The younger kids can just stand and beg for money. By the end of the night, we would get back together—bring in the money / bring in the food. He would decide what we would do with our resources that night. Most of the time, he opted out for buying us drugs or glue. We would sniff and get high and forget about the fact that we were hungry or cold.  Dennis: [Emotion in voice] I'm a grandfather of some nine-year-old granddaughters. I'm sitting here, listening to this, and I'm going, “That's not what children are supposed to experience.” I'm sorry. Your story goes on. Even in the midst of the streets, God protected you because usually little girls, like you, would die in the streets.  7:00 There was a place and a man who ended up being good, like Job, and who rescued you. Explain who Roman was.  Diana: When I was on the streets of Kiev, Roman was the man that started taking care of orphans. He started inviting us. I was very shy. I was very concerned about this first step, because I didn't know if I could trust; but I tried because I was desperate, and I had to give it one more try.  So, when I went to Roman, he and his volunteers—they introduced me to Christ. They fed me. They clothed me. They took care of me, and they loved me. They didn't expect anything back from me—they just let me go. Then, the next week, I would come back. Then, the next week, I'd come back; and there would be more children. Soon, before you knew it, there was a line of us fighting to get into this apartment.  Dennis: The apartment and the ministry ultimately became— 8:00 Diana: Father's House!   Dennis: The Father's House— Diana: Yes.  Dennis: —which is what you needed—was a father.  Diana: That's right. Amen!   Dennis: There was another angel sent to you from Springfield, Missouri.   Diana: That's correct. During my stay at Father's House, there was a man that came from Springfield, Missouri. His name is Bob Layman. Bob Layman came on a mission's trip. He looked at the orphanage / he looked at all of us kids, and God spoke to his heart about me. At the end of his trip, he went back home. God was just doing something in his heart.  Bob Layman started collecting funds and started collecting things—within his own family/ with his own little circle at his church. He took my picture, and he showed it to his family and to the local hospital—he said, “We've got to do something for her.”  When he went to this hospital and tried to get donations or anything they could do to help me, at first, they just kind of turned him away.  9:00 They said: “We cannot donate. That's a very large amount.”  Bob just left the picture of me on the desk of one of the doctors, and he walked out.  Dennis: What was their response?   Diana: When the doctor got back that day, he said, “Who is this?!”  The nurses and the people said, “Oh, there was just some man that came in yesterday asking for donations; but we don't know who this child is, and we're not sure who he is. We don't have his contact information.”  And that man said, “Find this man and find this child.”  And God opened the door after that.  They invited me to come to Springfield, Missouri, to receive medical attention because they had never seen such a severe case of a small child being severely burned. They donated all their services—the anesthesiologist, doctors, and surgeons, and nurses.  Dennis: Over a million dollars' worth— Diana: Yes!   Dennis: —of medical care.  Diana: And they took care of me. I stayed at the Ronald McDonald House while I was recovering from 18 plastic surgeries.  10:00 Dennis: Dental work?   Diana: I had dental work. It was from my neck up. I had no hair from where my birth mother burned me—they were third degree burns. They did an amazing job of making me look like a woman and feeling precious.  Dennis: Well, you're beautiful.  Diana: Thank you. [Applause]   Dennis: Diana, this is just a side note. I was born in St. John's Hospital.  Diana: Oh, wow!   Dennis: Yes. So, I know that area well. While you were recovering and going through all the plastic surgeries, you stayed with some families who showed you what a family was like. Ultimately, your visa ran out. You had to go back to Ukraine. It left a longing in your heart for a family. Not long after you were back at the Father's House again, there was another visitor.  Diana: There was another visitor—a very special visitor—by the name of Tara Quinn. She went to Father's House with her oldest son, Clay, on a mission's trip.  11:00 She came, and she walked through our orphanage, and walked through our Father's House. I was doing some homework in a particular room upstairs. As she walking through with the rest of the missionary team, she stopped and talked to me. I was very glad she was able to stop. I was very glad to share my life with her—I feel like God was opening my heart and opening her heart.  Dennis: Something was happening in your heart. You were longing for her to become your mom.  Diana: I was.  Dennis: And you didn't realize it, but the same thing was happening in hers.  Diana: That's right. And I remember when she had to leave that I was feeling like my heart was coming out my chest. I felt like I wanted her to be my mom so badly. I was longing for her to be that mother figure that would just love and cherish me and be there for me. When they left and they sat on the bus, I couldn't help it but run after that bus.  12:00 Dennis: Oh.  Diana: And I didn't know if I would ever see her again or not, but I sure prayed I would. After she left, I kept praying and asking Roman if there was a family for me or if it was too late. I remember one day when my prayers were answered. I got a phone call, and it was Tara Quinn. I remember that phone call very vividly. She asked me if I wanted to be adopted; and my answer was, “Yes!”  [Applause]   Dennis: You were how old at the time?   Diana: I was 15 years old.  Dennis: Fifteen.  Diana: Yes.  Dennis: That family pulled you in—made you their own. You think it'd be happily ever after, but it wasn't.  Diana: That's right. Now, that I had my family and I was able to have the home I'd always longed for— 13:00 —and I was able to create the memories I'd always wanted and have the brothers and all the drama of having a family—times weren't easy because, as I stayed in my family, I realized that I did not know how to love them back.  I had a hard time accepting their love; and because of my understanding at the time, I just continued to push my family away for some reason. They loved me, they adopted me, they gave me everything; but I was not able to give them what I knew I wanted to give them. But that was because my own heart was broken. God was molding, and fixing, and putting me in this family that's just my forever family.  Dennis: And you know, that's important for those of us, who've got a heart for the orphan. We need to realize that it takes time to heal a heart. You can invite someone in to be in the family, make them your own, and you feel like they're yours; but there are wounds that are unseen, and there are wounds that are seen that do take time to heal.  14:00 Ultimately, you rebelled.  Diana: I did. I rebelled against my parents. I rebelled against everything they taught me. I actually ended up telling my parents, one day, that I was just ready to move out. I was grown, and I was ready to do this on my own. I moved out. I went to live with my best friend, and I thought I was going to have life by the reigns and do this thing called life. And I was wrong!   Very shortly after moving out from home, finding out that I still needed the covering of my family—I needed the love, I needed the support, and I was not ready to be on my own—I found myself in desperation. I found myself needing my family. I ended up coming home—asking if I could come home— 15:00 —and my family accepted me back. They brought me back with open arms, regardless of the fact that I had said I wanted to go live by myself and “I've got this.”  My family invited me back. It was just like the prodigal son.  Well, a couple weeks after I'd gotten home, I found out I was pregnant. So, I rebelled against my family—just to the extreme. But my family has never given up on me. They have always loved me through this difficult time, where I broke my family's heart, and broke my mother's heart with the news of being pregnant outside of wedlock.  Dennis: I'm going to ask two of the three most significant people in your life, who happened to be here today—Roman, all the way from the Ukraine, and Tara, her mom—to come up on stage and just express a little love and appreciation.  16:00 Roman/Tara, where are you?  [Applause]  You [Diana] stay right here.  Roman, you've got quite a ministry going with orphans; but you've seen God work in one's life right here. Is there something you'd like to say to Diana?   Roman: For me, it's a big blessing. We invested to your family. Now, you are hero because you serve to the children. I, like, John Baptist who prepared road to Jesus in your life. Through you, God will do more with power and strength. You can do more than me / than our generation, because you understand each orphan and homeless child.  17:00 Bless you, Diana. I love you. Thank you, God, for you. [Applause]   Dennis: Tara?   Tara: Yes.  Dennis: It's your turn. Hold it together; okay?   Tara: [Emotion in voice] Yes; yes. A couple of things—a Scripture the Lord wanted me to share, when He was doing this work in my heart / in my family's heart, was Psalm 68, verse 6—says, “He sets the solitary into families.”  And Diana is our daughter / she's our forever daughter. She has a birth mother, but I'm her mother—I'm her mother, and she is my daughter.  These children need us. They need us.  Dennis: Yes.  Tara: They do. I'm so proud of her. She told a lot today, and I didn't ask her the questions of what she would share exactly.  18:00 I'm so proud of you for being able to release the ugly with the good and to let you know that you are God's daughter—not just our daughter—and that you are fearfully and wonderfully made and that you are perfect the way that you are, Diana. I love you / your family loves you.  This granddaughter's name is Alexis. She's six years old, and we adore her; and she's with us. I've been in prolife ministry for 25 years. This other family wanted to have our granddaughter aborted. Can you imagine that?  Somebody said, “Do they not know this family?”  I said, “Obviously not!”  [Laughter]  It's the God of life; and we're so glad for your life, Diana.  Diana: Thank you.  Tara: And you've made a difference in ours. [Applause] Diana: Thank you.  Dennis: You know it's too bad Bob Layman who helped you get to Springfield, Missouri, had other plans today.  19:00 I suppose he might be listening to these broadcasts someday. Is there something you'd like to say to him by way of appreciation?   Diana: I would love to say to him: “Thank you. Thank you for listening to God.”    Dennis: Could I stop you for just a second?   Diana: Yes.  Dennis: Bob, would you come out here?   Diana: Bob's here!  [Applause]   Bob: Do you remember that?   Diana: The pillow! [Laughter] Bob: Do you remember that?   Diana: Yes, I remember. Thank you.  Dennis: What's the story on the pillow, Bob?   Bob: So many people gave from the town I live in and from a town nearby. They brought so many things, but she was always attached to that pillow.  Diana: Thank you so much!  [Applause] Dennis: So, Diana, you have a chance to say it to him now.  Diana: Wow!   Dennis: What would you like to say?   20:00 Diana: I would like to say: “Thank you for listening to God. Thank you for being so in tune. Thank you for not giving up. Thank you for going and letting God use you. Thank you for just—I know that, maybe, at times, you felt like: ‘How can I make a difference?  I'm just one person.'  But you're just one person that God had to use. You were just that one person that God needed; and because of you and God's using you, I am here. I was waiting for you.”   Bob: I'm honored.  Diana: Thank you.  Bob: You're a sweet young lady.  Diana: Thank you.  Dennis: You're a hero for stepping out in faith and engaging a little girl—and so are you and you.  We started this by talking about seeds—planting seeds. One of the great lies, I believe, the devil of hell says to people is “You can't make a difference.”  21:00 You can—you can make a difference.  May I conclude our time by giving thanks?   Lord, God, You are the Great Redeemer. Thank You for chasing us down, and redeeming us, and adopting us into Your family, for still loving us, still pursuing us, still coming after us. And thank You for this magnificent story of perseverance, redeeming love, and of restoration of life. We give You the honor and the glory. In Jesus Christ's name; Amen.  Audience: Amen.  Dennis: Would you like to express your appreciation to these?  [Applause]   [Studio]   Bob: Well, we've been listening to an amazing story today—a story that was captured at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit that took place in Nashville earlier this year.  If you or anyone in your church has a burden for the plight of the orphan, adoption, foster care, let me encourage you to consider attending the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit next May.  22:00 It's going to be May 4th and 5th. It'll be at Brentwood Baptist Church, just outside Nashville, Tennessee. There is more information available, and you'll find it when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link for the Christian Alliance for Orphans. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit next spring.  We want to take a minute and wish a “Happy anniversary!” today, to Jason and Violetta Perry. I think it s Víoletta—I don't if it's Víoletta or Vióletta—but the Perrys are celebrating ten years together as husband and wife today. They live in Fairfield, California—listen to FamilyLife Today on KFIA. They've been to the Weekend to Remember® a number of times. We just want to say, “Happy Anniversary!”    We think anniversaries matter and ought to be celebrated. We just recently celebrated our 40th anniversary, here at FamilyLife— 23:00 —had a great couple of days with friends and supporters, from all across the country, who came in for our two-day celebration. And it was good to pause and just reflect on what God has done over the last four decades in the ministry of FamilyLife. And I hope the Perrys will take some time today and just reflected on how God has been at work in their marriage over the last ten years.  We want to say, “Thank you,” to those of you who have made our last 40 years possible—those of you who support this ministry and who also believe that anniversaries matter and make a difference. Thanks for your financial support of this ministry.  And if you're able to make a contribution today, we would love to send you, as a thank-you gift, our 2017 FamilyLife calendar. I know you're thinking, “It's just September,” but the calendar actually starts in October of 2016. So, you can get it now and put it to good use before the New Year is here. The calendar is our thank-you gift when you go online to donate or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation.  24:00 Or you can mail your donation and request the calendar. Write to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the start of the NFL season and talk about what's going on behind the scenes to help provide spiritual care for the players and the coaches. We'll talk about the NFL chaplaincy program tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage for God's Glory Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn't so sure.  Lisa: I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time, He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and, eventually, got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 23rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 Lisa Chan says that God's Word is true when it says, “Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” That's true, even in marriage. We'll talk more about that today with Francis and Lisa Chan. Stay with us.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We've been hearing, both last week and again this week, from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to FamilyLife Today, the Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It's a great romantic time away together, where you learn what the Bible teaches about God's design for marriage.  If you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee as a FamilyLife Today listener.  2:00 We are encouraging you to get more information—go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live and then block out that weekend, and call and register now to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out, so don't hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and register this week to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee.  Now, I've got to be honest—I'm not sure I want to talk to the couple we have joining us today, because they just shared with us they've had like 12 fights in the past 21 years. I'm kind of like, “Bring me some couples I can relate to a little more”; you know? [Laughter] 3:00 Dennis: Well, I was thinking: “We've been married double that. We've got more than 24, though,”—[Laughter]—doubling your dozen that you've had. Francis and Lisa Chan join us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back.  Francis: Thank you.  Lisa: Thank you.  Dennis: They've written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn't know who this couple is—they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there—also, ministering to men / I assume it's only men coming out of prison.  Francis: Yes; we've been trying to start a women's home as well. So, right now, it's just the guys coming out of prison.  Dennis: I want to go to something you mention in your book. You made this statement—you said, “If you could manuscript your prayers of what you've prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you, as a couple?”   Francis: So, it's like what David says in Psalm 27, verse 4, when he says, “This one thing I ask of the Lord and that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple.”   4:00 That was his one prayer request: “God, I want You—I want You. I want to see You. I want to be with You.”   So, the question is: “Give me a manuscript of your prayers for the last month. I want to hear: ‘What do you hunger for? What do you want?' You're coming before the Creator, the Sovereign One, who is in control of this whole earth; and what are you asking for?”   Dennis: Yes.  Bob: And most of us are asking for: “Fix this,”— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —“Make life easier or better— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —“for me”; right?   Francis: Amen!  Bob: So, if that's—I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray— Francis: No.  Bob: —“I'd like things to go better in my life”?   Francis: No; you know, it's—the Lord tells us to bring what we desire before Him; but also, the things that we desire reveal a lot about us; you know?  It opens our eyes to: “Wow! That's what I'm about?—is: ‘Get rid of all my problems,'”—because I don't see that in Scripture. It's more about, “God, give me the strength to make it through this—develop my character through these trials.”  You know, that's what I see in Scripture.  5:00 Lisa: How much of my prayers do I pray for Francis?  Do I pray for his walk with God?  Do I pray that God would help in his moments of temptation?  I mean, that's something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him—helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him the way that I will?   Dennis: One of the things that I try to do, when I pray over my meal at lunch—I don't do it every time—but I try to pray for my wife Barbara and her walk—that she'll see God show up in her life, and she'll respond to Him, and she will grow in her faith. Then, if I'm having lunch with another guy, pray for his wife as well.  I don't think a lot of us are challenging one another with that concept, Francis—that you speak of in your book—of really making sure your prayers are about the agenda of what God's up to; because He is at work in your spouse's life, in your children, and in your extended family as well.  6:00 Francis: I just recently started running; you know?  I was getting out of shape; and so, I've been running around this track at my daughter's school. Every lap, I'll pray for a different kid. So, it's nice to have seven kids and a wife. [Laughter] It's, at least, two miles a day that I'm running, which is good. As I'm praying, the prayers aren't: “Oh, help us get along better,” or “Help this,” “Help that.”  It's like: “God, make my wife just this amazing warrior for you. Give her even greater love / greater capacity.” “Help my daughter, as she's in this school right now, to take a stand for you. It's about Your kingdom.” “Use them to influence other people—my kids in grade school / my kid in Little League—have him influence this team.” It's about God: “Your kingdom—Your kingdom come.”   Dennis: Lisa, tell the truth. When he starts praying like that— Lisa: Does it scare me?  [Laughter]   Dennis: —do you get scared?   Lisa: No; you know, my immediate thought was: “I'm so glad he's praying for me! I need it.”  That is, honestly, my first thought. [Laughter]   7:00 Bob: I want to go back—because you said your dad said, “No,” the first two times to Francis— Lisa: They are going to feel so bad about that. [Laughter]   Bob: But, as a daddy, I understand wanting to protect— Dennis: Oh, yes!   Bob: —my daughter— Dennis: Absolutely!  Bob: —and along comes Francis, who—as you said—they weren't sure if he was crazy about God or just crazy. And your journey together has been a journey of risk and a journey of faith; that, honestly, I can understand a daddy going, “This may be more risk than I raised my little girl for.” Do you know what I'm talking about?   Lisa: Yes; and I've seen that tension in them. There have been times when I've just had to cry and be honest with them, like, “I need you to support me and say, ‘You are never going to regret surrendering to God and giving things up.'”  That's hard when you have that parent's heart that immediately wants to protect. I have it, too, with all of my kids.  8:00 So, I do get it in a different way now; but how much I want to encourage parents to be that voice of courage for their kids—married or not; married 20 years / 30 years—still be that voice that says: “Honey, go for it! Don't look back. Surrender it all to God, because He's got you.” Bob: But there have to have been times when crazy Francis came to you and said, “I think the Lord is saying this,” and your immediate answer wasn't, “Yes, let's go for that,”— where you had to kind of go:  Lisa: Oh, yes.  Bob: —“Really?  There is a cost here.”   Lisa: One of the hardest—the first most difficult was when he had come back from Africa. I had not been with him on that trip. God completely wrecked him. He wanted to sell our home and cut our house size from 2,000 square foot to 1,000 square foot—it was, literally, right in half.  9:00 We had two kids. We had a couple of people living with us—we always have—but he wanted to move. He was like: “I can't do this anymore. I need to give something up in order to love these kids that I saw.”   It was love-motivated, which was so awesome; but I was so honest with him—I said, “I wasn't with you. I don't feel love in my heart; I feel more like, this is going to stink!” [Laughter] No; I mean, I'm just being honest. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset.  Bob: Your immediate reaction was, “I don't know.”  10:00  Lisa: It was: “I don't want to, but I will do what is in your heart. I will not stand in the way of what you want to do.”  And so—   Bob: And were you still—on the day you were moving into a 1,000 square-foot house, were you going: “I don't want to do this,” or had—by that time, had you started to go, “Okay; I guess this is going to be okay,” or what?   Dennis: Or did you negotiate a 1,500 square-foot home?  [Laughter]   Lisa: No, it was 1,000; and it was hard. I think the initial reaction was the hardest. Then, it was, “Swallow it.”  Then, it was, “This is going to be fine.”  Then, it was: “Why am I so stupid?  This has been the best thing.”  It was one of our favorite homes. We had the best neighbors that we reached out to and just loved. It was the tiniest, little thing. We had six of us, eventually, there. We had two more kids there; and then, we had two girls living with us. We moved up to eight living in that little, tiny house.  11:00 Dennis: Francis, if I've learned anything in the years I've been married, in order for our wives to have that kind of response, you have to have loved her with a love that results in respect and the ability to trust—when her heart isn't quite yet in it—but she knows she's got to go with you because she's committed to you and she's committed to the mission. Talk about your love for Lisa and how you have built that kind of trust.  Francis: I think, not to over-spiritualize it, but I do really believe that one of the things I've been able to help Lisa with is to trust in the Lord. So, when it came to a bigger decision—like the house—she had seen God's faithfulness in the past, and I think that's where the trust was. She was trusting that I was following the Lord and that the Lord was going to bless our steps, as long as we just keep going, and even sacrificing/denying ourselves during those times we didn't feel like it.  12:00 At the same time, we had been around the world. They would find us, even right now, having this conversation—about a 1,000 square-foot home, with toilets and air-conditioning—just absolutely laughable!  Dennis: —that that's a sacrifice.  Francis: Exactly!—because this is their dream house. So, I don't want to sit here and go, “Oh, you guys, we really suffered.”  It's like: “Man, that's luxury. We're living in America.”   Lisa: That's why it wasn't until after I had been with him into some of those areas of extreme poverty that I did feel so stupid for complaining and thinking that I was sacrificing so much. I said, “Oh, I would have sacrificed more.”  I said, “We could live in a tent,”—although that would probably be really hard—[Laughter]—but—   Dennis: You kind of looked at him— Bob: “Don't plant any ideas!”  [Laughter] Dennis: Well, that's what she was thinking—she was going: “Oh, no! We're going to downsize from 1,000 square feet.”   Francis: And that's crossed my mind—that's happened—the tent. Laughter]   Dennis: Francis, let's talk about how you are the spiritual lover and leader of Lisa and your family.  13:00 You've got a lot going on in your life out there: “How do you love Lisa? How do you provide the kind of mandate that Ephesians 5 talks about—‘Husbands, love you wives as Christ loved the church'?” Francis: It's something the Lord put in me. It's weird because I didn't really have that, growing up; and yet, it's so natural to me. It's not like I have to force myself to love my kids, and to enjoy them, or force myself to spend time with Lisa. I am gone a lot, but all the kids know I want to be at home with them. A lot of times, I will take them with me on some of my speaking engagements—I'll take one kid at a time.  So, I do serve kids—you know, my kids— through relationship, through just laughing with them, and teaching them, and disciplining them, and getting the time with them. A lot of times, we're just in ministry together.  14:00 Dennis: Lisa, we'll let you answer the question too: “How does he love you?”   Lisa: Well,— Dennis: And again— Lisa: —practically speaking,— Dennis: —not in an idealistic way—yes; in a practical way.  Lisa: Yes; one of the nicest things—that every mother will appreciate—is those nights, when he'll see that I have been in the home / I have had the little people all over me—and the big ones, sometimes, that have the emotional needs that go far beyond your little ones—and he'll just say: “Honey, I got this. You just go to Target—[Laughter]—just walk around Target, aimlessly, with a Diet Coke in your hand.”  [Laughter]  That is such a blessing. He knows when I need a little moment to myself; and he knows those times when he'll say: “Hey, we've got our high schoolers still at home. They are going to watch the little ones. You and I are going to go grab dessert really quick.”  That is how he shows love—it is to sneak a little time away / grab some dessert or just to let me go have a moment to myself.  15:00 Bob: As I hear you guys describe your marriage and how this works out for you, I hear a strong sense of mutuality; but I also hear there's leadership, and there's responding to leadership. You know, there is tension, even among Christians today, about: “What's this supposed to look like? How are we supposed to do this? Is the man supposed to lead? Is the wife supposed to submit?”  Unpack how you think that's supposed to work and why we are confused about it today.  Francis: I think we're confused about it because we've rarely seen a good picture of it. We live in a culture that's very anti-authority—because when have you found godly serving authority; okay?  Yet, that's a picture of God. It gets to the point where we even question God's authority, like, “He has no right to give me these rules.”  We forget that, no, those rules were to protect you / they were to give you life.  16:00 He is a wonderful authority!  I mean, that's the whole rebellion of Adam and Eve. It's like: “Well, did He really say?  That sure does look good.”  It's like: “No! You're going to ruin everything!”   Authority can be beautiful. Jesus, who knew who He was—He understood He was the Lord—yet, He goes and He washes the disciples' feet—He dies on the cross for them. That's our picture of authority. That's what the head of the home is supposed to do. If you had that, then, I believe you would see a lot more women, going: “Okay; I see that. I see how it can be good to be under their authority.”  So, I see, in Scripture—it is pretty clear to me that the man is supposed to be the head of the home, but he's supposed to lead in a way that's like a servant that is Christ-like.  Dennis: When a man serves, denies himself, loves, leads, and really takes care of his wife, it makes her responsibility and her response reasonable.  17:00 And Lisa, in the book, I so enjoy what you write on Page 88 because you talk about five reasons why—what has become a very nasty word in our culture / a politically-incorrect word—the word, “submission,”—but it's a biblical term. You talk about why we should do that. I want you to share that with our listeners, because there is probably a listener or two who is losing heart in well-doing and needs to be reminded why it's so important.  Lisa: You know, it was hard when we were writing the book; because we could write a whole giant book about submission and authority—right?—and leadership, but we didn't want that to be the focus of the book. But it is important to understand, for a woman—especially because so many women will say: “My husband doesn't deserve to be submitted to. He is not a good leader. He is not following the Lord.” We're not submitting to our husband's perfection and the fact that they deserve it. We're submitting to the fact that God has given them that position of authority. We're submitting to a God-given position and not perfection.  18:00 There were times, even in the beginning, when Francis was not kind and nice about his authority and leadership; but I am still responsible, before God, to say: “You know what?  He has given him this position.”  You can't get around it through Scripture. It's not one place that says, “Wives, submit to your husbands,”—it's a few times—look it up in your concordance. We can't be so afraid of obeying the Lord—there is freedom in it.  The second thing is—only our submission to God should be absolute. We don't submit to our husbands if they ask us to sin, obviously. There is a limit, in that sense. We are all under the umbrella of God's authority. So, if our husband steps outside of that, then we are not to join him in that.  Bob: You don't follow him—you don't follow him there.  Lisa: Right. I think one of the most important things we have to realize is that we find ourselves thinking that we're fighting against our husbands; but ultimately, we're fighting against God.  19:00 That is not something we want to do—the Scripture says that God opposes the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.  It takes humility to follow someone's lead; but, you know, you look back at the very beginning—God said: “It's not good for the man to be alone. I am going to create a helpmate for him.”  Why can't we embrace the beauty of that and say: “Wow! I want to give my husband the benefit of my wisdom / my insight”? Then, after I've laid that all down—and I've shown him / I've shared my thoughts and my heart—to allow him to lead / to make the ultimate decision, knowing that I've poured my heart out to him and helped him understand my perspective. It may not always match up. We may not always agree, but give your husband that benefit. He needs you. You are his helpmate.  Dennis: Your belief in your husband is empowering and affirming to his leadership. I think—I'm looking at Francis, who is nodding his head—she has made you a better leader— Francis: Oh, yes! Dennis:—because she is a strong woman.  20:00 Francis: Absolutely! If you knew me before I met her, I am sure you would say: “Wow! That was a major transformation. There's no way he could pull off what he's doing without her.”   Bob: Knowing that she believes in you / respects you—that she'll follow you— Francis: Yes.  Bob: —that puts wind in your sails.  Francis: You see—because my parents were dead by the time I was in junior high—so I've never had support / I never had anyone believing in me. I didn't have a cheerleader—anyone in my corner. Yet, the Lord was enough. The Lord was absolutely enough—so, yes—amen and amen. But He created us in such a way that—now, when I finally had someone who believed in me—like another human being, who I knew was going to be by my side and support me, even when everyone else thought I was crazy—yet, she believed / she believed in me. I can't—I can't say enough.  21:00 Lisa: You know, one of the things I have to say is that the thought of coming before the Lord, at the end of my life, and having Him say: “Why did you prevent your husband from doing all these things I had planned for him?”—that is part of what scares me. I think we have to realize that, as women, we want to be life-givers and we want to put wind in their sails, as you put it. We don't want to stand in the way and limit them and limit what God is going to do through them. That is what should scare us.  Francis: This is what the book was about—eternity. You know, we have this wonderful family—full of laughter / everything else—but that's going to be over in a second. Just to put it bluntly—we're going to die any moment. Lisa or I will stand before God, Himself— Dennis: Right.  Francis: —and what are we going to care about?  So, if I love her, then, it's not just about this time here. I want to prepare her for that moment when she faces Him. In the same way—and yes, we are saved by grace— 22:00 —but I want her to know: “I accomplished the work You gave me to do, Father, while I was on that earth—during that brief, little vapor of a time. I did what You wanted me to do.”   I think that's true love—is when you are looking at someone—and not just thinking of the here and now, where I benefit. I think about the forever and ever and ever—“How are you going… / What's that existence going to be like?”—it's based upon how we live now.  Bob: Is that really your hand print on the cover?   Francis: No; my hand wouldn't have fit on the book. [Laughter] Bob: I was just looking at your hand, going,— Francis: I know!  Bob: —“You've got huge hands.”   Francis: I know; it's freaky/scary. [Laughter]   Bob: We do have copies of your book, You and Me Forever, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity by Francis and Lisa Chan. Again, find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-“F”' as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   23:00 And don't forget—if you have any interest in—and I hope you do—in coming to one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways this spring / they're going to be in over 50 cities across the country—sign up this week and you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. It's a special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners that expires this weekend. If you have any questions about the getaway, call us or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com.  And can I just say?—for you to have a couple of days—where the two of you get away, and recalibrate, and refocus, and breathe a little fresh air into your marriage—that would be good for anybody. If it's been a while since you've done that, you ought to go ahead and make plans now to be at one of the getaways and save a little money in the process; okay? Sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get registered for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. If you want to buy a gift card for somebody to attend a getaway, those are available at 50 percent off the regular registration fee as well.  24:00 Get the details at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about how marriage and ministry can coexist—how you can be in alignment, as husband and wife, in being involved in kingdom work. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright© 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

The phrase “release to production” conjures a very specific set of thoughts and even emotions for folks who live, breath, and work with technology. Some of those thoughts and feelings are positive, while others are fraught with conflict. At the same time, those of us who are active in our religious community experience a different kind of “release to production” - releasing our children to the production environment of our faiths, whether that is teaching abroad, missionary work, or adult religious education that takes our young adult across the globe. And like our IT-based production release experiences, we watch our kids transition into chaotic systems, where parental observability is minimal even as the probability of encountering unknown-unknown error types grows. This week we continue the discussion from the last episode, where Leon and Josh to look at what our IT discipline can teach us about how to make this phase of the parental production cycle easier. Listen or read the transcript below. Kate: 00:00 Welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experience we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We're not here to preach or teach you our religion or lack thereof. We're here to explore ways we make our career as IT professionals mesh or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is Technically Religious. Leon: 00:24 This is a continuation of the discussion we started last week. Thank you for coming back to join our conversation. Josh: 00:31 You know, there's a moment in my and my childhood that I think accurately reflects my approach or how I got into IT. And I really wished that I could have had somebody at the top of Devil's Run with me who could say, "Look, now young Josh, this is not a good idea." So you have to picture this. It's this, the largest hill in my neighborhood and Ontario and it is a, a run that goes down, hits a flat top and then goes down again, uh, into this grassy meadow before there's a highway. And there are trees that are grown, that are grown in across the path. And here I am, I'm probably seven years old, right? This is the 80s. There are no bike hel, there are no like bike helmets. No. And I'm on my BMX, right. Uh, no suspension. It's not like I was, you know, dry, uh, riding a mountain bike with, you know, eight inches of travel on the front end and three in the back. Like this is teeth chattering. And I friends and I of course are at the top of this run. No one locally is Devil's Run. And I'm like, I can totally do this. And so I set off down this hill and about, oh, about a third of the way I realize I'm in trouble. Not only are my fillings rattling out of my teeth, right, but I, I'm, I'm losing control. And then I hit the middle, this, this flat top and I'm like, oh, I can. And then I hit the second part of the hill and I'm flying down. [chattering noise] Just the chatter the entire way I get to this meadow. And I realize that there's a fence coming up. Cause that's the only thing between me and the highway. I slam on my brakes. If you've ever slammed on your brakes and a grassy meadow, you do not stop. You just slide. I crashed headlong into this chain link fence. The next thing I remember was my friends standing over me. "Hey, are you okay?" I don't know how long I was out. They, they walked down, um, Devil's Run after seeing my spectacular run. I wish, I wish that someone had said, hey, you know, you should probably take a different route to the bottom of this hill. But I got there really quickly and that's kind of like my IT career. I got to my it career really quickly. I'm only 40 (ahem!) something and I've been in it for 21 years and there are a lot of people that are a lot older than I am that, you know, they did the, they did the traditional route and didn't get into the right t career until they were 25 or 26. Leon: 03:10 Sure. Right. And Yeah, the subtitle for that. And for some of us, perhaps the epitaph on our tombstone will be, "Mistakes were made. Lessons were learned", and that's...sure! Josh: 03:25 There was a lesson to learn in that? Leon: 03:26 Yeah, there probably was. There's a few, few functional lessons. So in the category of "Mistakes were made. Lessons were learned." And really it was the, the impetus for this entire episode, uh, my son is, uh, actually about to be on his way back from Israel. Um, I'd like to point out that he left last Wednesday, uh, for a year of yeshiva and he's coming home. Uh, it was, uh, a challenge from start to finish. He got there and things were not as he expected. Um, I will, I will say that he is a fairly resilient kid. He's done traveling. He's, you know, he's been to a high school yeshiva program that wasn't at home. Yes. There was some, um, some homesickness that was certainly involved. Yes. There were normal dorm shenanigans that occur in every dorm situation, you know, "Hey, I want that spot. You can't have that spot!", You know, that kind of stuff. But, uh, there was also a set of circumstances that were not related to that. They also were not of the caliber of civil unrest, mind you, but, um, just a lot of things that didn't match the set of expectations that he had going in. And by the time we got the better part of a week in, he was so miserable and so unable to, to change his frame of mind that nothing was going to work. And we also realized that everything that we wanted for him, everything that we, and by we, I mean my wife, myself and him, were going to get out of this experience at yeshiva wasn't going to occur. And even if it did occur, it wasn't worth or greater than the challenges he had faced already and the challenges that we're clearly still going to occur while he was there. So we made the decision this afternoon and, um, got a ticket and he's, he's gonna fly home tomorrow. So this is effectively the same as you know, catastrophic failure and a rollback in, you know, in production. That you have your change control window, you have everything plotted out and things simply nothing installs or deploys the way you expect it to. And you find yourself at 2:30 AM with three more hours on the change window to go saying, hmm, no, we got to pull the plug, roll it back and we'll try again some other time, but we have to sit back. So that's, that's the story. Um, so let's, you know, so let's talk about this in an IT context. Josh: 06:11 You know, the, this is a tough one, right? Because in in the IT context, if we have to roll back our change, the change management folks are going to ding our change scores, they're going to say, "Hey you, you failed to deploy", and I will say that my current employer is changing that mindset. There is no longer a, a ding for rolling back a change because it means that you did your T-minus an you were executing and you recognized that this is not going to work the way that we wanted it to work, so we're going to roll it back because we want to protect the customer. Or in this case, you want to protect your, your child. You. Leon: 06:54 Right. Josh: 06:54 You're like, "Look, you being at yeshiva is just not going to work. We're going to bring it back, we're going to re-plan, and then we're going to redeploy and probably in another direction." I mean, we've talked about this before, right? Sometimes you have to walk the path that you were not supposed to walk only as far as you needed to so that you could realize it's not the path and then come back and walked confidently down the path that is the correct path for you. Much like me pursuing my, my law degree just was not going to happen. Leon: 07:24 But you never sat there and said, "What if? What if?" No, you, you had enough of the what if to say no, no, no. I know. I know what that one was. Yeah. Josh: 07:32 I also wanted to be a stockbroker. I made it, I made it to the first class of my, or the first lesson of my first two classes and I was like, no, I do not want to be a stockbroker. Did you know the stock brokers have to do math? Leon: 07:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're doing a lot of it. Josh: 07:48 I didn't, I just thought they made money. It was weird. I had the things you don't know when you're 21. Leon: 07:53 Yeah. Yeah. This is difference between counterfeiters and stockbrokers. Josh: 07:56 Oh, weird. Leon: 07:57 There's a joke there. I, I'm not good enough for financials to be able to finish that joke. So feel free to like leave a comment on the podcast about like how the, what the punch line for that would be. Um, so, so when we think about rollbacks to production, I think in it context it happens. But then we think about, all right, what can we do? Not just to make sure that this thing doesn't fail in the rollout, but how we can change our, uh, it culture, our it processes so that rollbacks occur less often. And you brought up a really good example, um, you know, as, as a true DevOps aficionado, you're going to invoke the holy name of Netflix. Josh: 08:36 Of course, right? Netflix. Netflix is "The" company when it comes to, hey, let's break things. Uh, they introduced this idea of chaos monkey and it was actually built on a platform that allowed for this continuous, continuous deployment model and they would inject these problems. Uh, so the idea was that they wanted to see what would happen when there was a quote unquote random failure. Uh, so they, they developed this, this platform that was shut down an instance and did it impact us? And if it did, oh, that's interesting. Why did it, ah, let's go investigate. And so they would do the root cause and then resolve it. Um, chaos monkey has gone a step further now. Uh, one of the, one of the inventors of that methodology and of that platform has developed a platform called gremlins and gremlins are, are, I mean, they're exactly like those little evil creatures that were in the bad eighties movie that we watch over Christmas of the same name. Right? They're like, "Terminate an instance? Uh, no, no, no, no. We're going to rail the CPU in your box. Oh, we're going to fill a volume. Oh, we're going to steal your swap memory!" Um, that whole idea of let's, let's inject some failure into that deployment model just to see what happens. That's what I think is really important. Leon: 09:57 Um, so, and just to clarify for folks who may not be familiar with the term or as familiar with IT, this isn't just breaking things for the sake of breaking things. This is breaking things to then see what the effect is and build a product that is more resilient to these random breakages. And not only that, but to build teams that think in a very particular way about what could go wrong. Um, just to extend the Gremlin concept even further. I heard that, I'm not sure if it was at Netflix or somewhere else that the chaos monkey visits the humans. Josh: 10:32 Oh boy. Leon: 10:33 Um, right. And does not inject chaos into them. But what it does is, uh, somebody will show up at somebody's desk right before a release to production and say, you are really, really sick right now. You have to go home for the rest of the day with pay, but you have to go and the person will say, "But, but, but I was part of the release team." Like I, we know, we'll let you know who, what happened tomorrow. Good luck. You know, this has been a visit from your friendly neighborhood chaos monkey. So you know, what happens when a particular person isn't available. And of course, again, the, the, you know, the next day they go back for a postmortem and say, well, because you know, Sarah wasn't there. Um, we didn't have somebody who do that. Oh, that's really interesting. Um, since I know that Sarah is very committed to being able to take vacations and actually be sick, sometimes we probably ought to figure out how we can have some redundancy in our human processes. Um, you know, so that that doesn't affect us when it matters. Josh: 11:33 Um, I just want to point out that the last week, my team of three, I quickly became a team of one and it just, you know, PTO and a great opportunity to go out and meet with a vendor and suddenly Joshua is running solo. Um, right. We survived, although we like to inject chaos just for fun. Leon: 11:53 I'm not saying chaos isn't entertaining when it occurs to other people. [Laughter] It's was it Mel Brooks who said the difference between comedy and tragedy, if you fall down a manhole cover, that's comedy. If I get a paper cut, that's tragedy. So yeah, the chaos monkey is great, but uh, it's, you know, when it happens to somebody else. Josh: 12:15 So how would we apply this then, Leon to, to our families, right. Uh, I think I have some experiences that my family has gone through in the past decade, right? My daughter was diagnosed with scoliosis, uh, had back surgery. She's got, uh, 21 inches of titanium rod on each side, or sorry, 16 inches of titanium rod on each side of her spine. Uh, 21 or 22 titanium screws in her back. And, um, she did a, uh, Trek which, and Mormon, uh, in Mormon culture, I wouldn't say theology, Mormon culture. Um, they reenact a, a pioneer journey, so they have handcarts and they, they drive them. She did that. Uh, 3.5 months after back surgery. I mean, my son on a mission, um, you know, was diagnosed with Tourette's, which made conversation very hard. Now he's out doing missionary work and loves to talk to people. Um, and then on my own, my own family, right. I, I suffer from depression and I, my, my work toward getting promoted happened to coincide with a really difficult depressive episode. Um, so I mean, I, I, for me and my family, I think that those experiences have taught us this. And I do love baseball. So this, yes, as the baseball analogy, when life is throwing you curve balls, just swing away. I mean when people look at those things, we were like, "Oh, well, you know, Josh, you know, he, he has, he has depression", but when you swing away at those curves and you, you know, you pull one out of the park, uh, for me that, that, uh, allowing that chaos into our lives, uh, it allows, it allows the acknowledgement that, "Yeah, I don't have control over this thing, but I am still going to take an active, active role." But I mean, how do I take that and how do we instill that into my kids. Obviously I, I've done it, but I, I mean, I don't know how I did it. Leon: 14:13 So I think you're, I think the analogy is good and I think the point is good that Netflix said, look, failures are going to occur. So, the only way we can get better at them is to keep experiencing failures and keep on growing from them. But we're not going to wait for the failures to happen to us. We're going to actively seek those failure modes. Now that doesn't mean uh, again, quoting Barbara Collaroso, uh so, uh, class if you don't cross the street. But if you don't look both ways before crossing the street, something bad could happen. "Jenny, go run and show them!" Like you don't do that. So, but as you, you can't watch, but I almost almost made him spit coffee out of his nose. Um, or whatever you're drinking probably wasn't coffee. Um, so I think that finding situations for our family to go through with which are less than perfect, which are, um, perhaps a little fraught or have the potential to be a little bit fraught, whether that is, you know, moving, I mean, just simply, you know, moving, moving to a new, a new home to new school, to new city, I think that causes a lot of families, a lot of, uh, concern. What are we going to do to the kids? We're going to teach them how to move. We're going to teach them that things change. Um, I think moving every month is probably a little excessive, but I think we can look for those as opportunities, not just as challenges. Um, if you know, somebody in the family speaks a different length, is able to speak another language. I think having that person insist on speaking it and allowing the rest of the family to adapt to that. Um, I've seen families where one parent speaks only one language. The other, so the family I'm thinking of, he's from Spain. She is from Switzerland. They speak all the languages, they speak together, so they each speak Spanish, French, German or schweizerdeutsch in English. They speak all of those. So Dad speaks to their daughter in Spanish only. Mom speaks to the child in schweizerdeutsch only. And they speak to each other in front of the child in French only. Josh: 16:22 Oh my goodness! Leon: 16:23 So that the kid understood that there were different modalities to speaking. When I'm talking to Daddy, I have to use these words. When I'm talking to Mommy, I have to speak up these words and if they're both here, I have to use these other words. But it taught the child to sort of mental resilience. Um, that I think is admirable and I've seen families do it that way. I've also seen families do it where dinner time is, you know, Spanish time. We're just at, at this meal, this is the only language we are going to speak. Good luck. You will not damage your children doing that. Uh, pulling from my own personal experience. Uh, the way that the Adato family takes vacations is relatively unique. Uh, I'll try to tell this briefly, but um, when we go on vacation, we don't tell our kids that we're going, we don't tell them where they're going. We don't tell them how long they will be gone. What I mean by that is that my wife and I plan the vacation like you do, but we don't tell our kids anything about it. It's done completely in secret. And then on the day that we leave, we usually, uh, wake them up around three o'clock in the morning. A lot of our vacations are driving vacations. So we wake them up around three o'clock in the morning and sing to them [singing] "We going on on an adventure. We're going on!" As the kids got older, they would swear at us more as we did that because we were waking them up and then they know what's coming. We'd load them into the car in their pajamas and we start driving. About 20 minutes in, we'd start giving them clues and we'd continue to give them clues, uh, for the next four or five hours. When they were young, this kept them occupied and out of the "Are we there yet?"-mode since they wouldn't know are we there yet? Cause they don't know where there is but the clues were not particularly helpful. For example, we were going to Boston and some of our clues was like the little magnet tiles. You know there was a one and a two... One if by land two if by sea? [groan] There was also, there was a Minute Maid orange juice container that was cut out in the shape of a guy for the Minute Men. And, uh, we also had a little stone and a matchbox car... For Plymouth Rock. Yeah. Josh: 18:33 Oh..wow.... Leon: 18:33 Since I said we were going to Boston, all of that made sense. But since we didn't, they, they sometimes got really obscure. Like we went to Israel, we did take a trip to Israel and one of the clues there was a model airplane with holes drilled in it. Um, which did not mean as my son announced loudly to the plane that we're going to crash. [Laughter] Um, instead I was, I was trying to make a joke about the holy land, so... Right!?! Right. So these clues, these clues are not easy or, or helpful clues. They're really just obnoxious clues that keep the kids paying attention. So, but the point is, is that as we go on vacation, like a whole vacation experience is one of guessing and trying to figure it out and, and having fun with it and learning to enjoy the uncertainty of it. Um, because at the end of the day, I think that's the part that we as parents and also I think, uh, you know, we as young adults who were failing in different ways and, uh, our kids who are young adults and failing in particular ways, I think that's the challenge is "Wow do we face and, and address uncertainty?" How do we, you know, "I thought it was going to go like this and it's not, and now what am I going to do about it? Um, you know, I don't know what to do. This wasn't part of my, my game plan. So now what?" And sometimes the answer, the right answer is rollback come home, regroup. You know, sometimes that is the right answer. Sometimes the answer is, you know, sidestep. Okay, so lawyer isn't going to work, but you're not going to not work. You're not going to not do something. So, alright, how do I take a side step into another career? I think that that's what it comes, uh, comes down to, is facing that uncertainty and having strategies for when those uncertain moments crop up. Josh: 20:32 Thanks for making time for us this week to hear more of Technically Religious, visit our website, TechnicallyReligious.com, where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect with us on social media Leon: 20:46 Test in Dev? Not me! I test in prod. What could possibly go wrong? Josh: 20:51 Narrator: Apparently, a lot. Nobody was surprised.    

In this episode, we talk to Terence Eden, Open Standards Lead at the Government Digital Service. We discuss his job, a digitally-equipped civil service and emerging technology in government. The full transcript of the interview follows: Sarah Stewart: Hello. Welcome to the second GDS podcast. I’m Sarah Stewart, Senior Writer at the Government Digital Service. Today I’ll be joined in conversational paradise with Terence Eden. Terence is known variously as a tech enthusiast, as a digital troublemaker, as the man who hacked his own vacuum cleaner to play the ‘Star Wars’ theme tune, but in a professional capacity he is the Open Standards Lead at the Government Digital Service. Terence, welcome. Terence Eden:  Thank you very much for having me. Sarah Stewart:  So how do you explain what you do? Terence Eden:  What I tend to say, in a very reduced vocabulary, is, “We have computers. Government has computers, and those computers need to talk to each other, but sometimes those computers don’t speak the same language.” It’s my job to say, “Hey, can we agree on a common language here?” Then, when we can, those computers speak to each other. It’s, kind of, as simple as that. If we publish a document and it’s in a format that you don’t understand, that’s a barrier to entry for you. You can’t get access to the data or the information you need. If we publish it in such a way that it’s only available on one manufacturer’s type of smartphone, that’s a barrier. We can’t do that, so it’s my job to say, “No, let’s make it available to everyone, in a common language.” I’ve got a big sticker on my laptop which says, ‘Make things open. It makes things better.’ That applies to a whole variety of things, and there are people here working on open data, and open source, and open government, but my part of the mission is to say that, when government produces documents or data, everyone should be able to read them. It’s unacceptable that we say, “Okay, if you want to interact with government, you need to pay this company this money, for this software, which only works on that platform.” That’s completely antithetical to everything we’re trying to do, so my mission – our team’s mission – is to go around government, saying, “There’s a better way of doing things, there’s a more open way of doing things, and we can help you with that.”  Sarah Stewart: That sounds completely straightforward. Terence Eden: You’d think, wouldn’t you? Most of the time it is. When you tell people and you say, “If you publish it like this, then only people with that computer can read it,” it’s like a light goes off. Sarah Stewart:  Do you go out to departments proactively, or do they come to you? Terence Eden: It’s both. I spent last week talking to the DWP and the Government Statistical Service, and I’m speaking, I think, this week to a couple of different departments and ministries. We go out, we chat to them, but quite often they come to us and say, “Hey, users have complained about this,” or, “Hang on. We think we need to do something better. What should we do?” and we offer just a wide range of advice. Sarah Stewart: Government is huge and technology changes all the time so how do you make sure you are progressing in the right direction, that you’re achieving what needs to be achieved, and that your work is ‘done’, I mean is it even possible to say your work is ‘done’? Terence Eden: Wow… It’s a slight Sisyphean task, I think, because there’s always going to be a new department coming online which doesn’t get it, or someone who’s come in, and a bit of work which only gets published every five years, and the process is never updated. It’s a rolling task. We monitor everything the government publishes. My team, when we see a department which only publishes something in a proprietary format, we drop them an email and say, “Hey, look, here are the rules. This is what you need to do. Can you fix it?” Most of the time they do, and we’ve seen… We’ve published some statistics. We’re seeing a steady rise in the number of open-format documents which are being published. That’s great, so we’re on our way with the mission. You can’t expect everyone to keep on top of every change in technology and the best practice all the time, so there is always going to be a need for bits of GDS to go out and say, “You know what? This is best practice. This is the right way to do it, and we can help you get there and make things more open.” So… we need to do, I think, in GDS and across government, a better job of understanding what our users want – what they need, I should say – and also explaining that user need back to the rest of government. Sarah Stewart: But what’s your focus at the moment? Terence Eden: We have a problem with PDFs. I don’t think that’s any surprise. I’ve published the stats, but there are some critical government forms which are being downloaded millions of times per year, which could be better served being online forms. When someone has to download, print out a form, fill it in by hand and then post it back, for someone else to open it up, scan it, or type it in, we- Sarah Stewart:  It’s the worst. Terence Eden: It’s the worst. It’s rubbish. It’s a rubbish user experience. It’s expensive and it’s not very efficient. It means you’re waiting weeks to get an answer, whereas if you can just go on your phone and type in your name, address, and all the other bits that they want, and hit ‘go’ and then get either an instant or a rapid decision, that just transforms the relationship between the citizen and the state, as we say. So, a large part of the next six months is going to be finding those… It’s not low-hanging fruit, but it’s just those big, horrible things which just no-one has got round to tackling yet. Some of them, there are good reasons and there are whole business processes behind, but we need to be pushing and saying, “Look, in 2018 this isn’t good enough. This isn’t the way that we can behave anymore.” A lot of what I do is going round to departments, and doing presentations, and talking to people individually and in groups. I see that continuing. We also work a lot with SDOs: standard development organisations. I’m on a committee for the British Standards Institute, and I work with World Wide Web Consortium, and so we’re making sure that the government’s view is represented. We don’t ever want to produce a standard which is a government standard, and it’s the government’s own standard. It’s the only one, and we’re the only people who use it, because no-one wants to deal with that. We want to have… We want to be using internationally accepted standards. If you’re an SME, if you’re a small-medium business and you want to pitch for some work for government, you don’t need to go and buy a huge, expensive standard, or you don’t need to do a piece of work just for us. Your work can be applicable everywhere. That said, it’s important for us to be on these standards development organisations so we can say, “Actually, our user needs are going to be slightly different from a FTSE 100 company, or from a charity, or from someone else.” We can just shape those standards so that they’re slightly more applicable for us. Sarah Stewart: Someone listening might ask: why can’t government use, say, something like Google Forms instead of a PDF? Why can’t government just do this? Terence Eden: In some ways, they can. With that particular example, we need to understand people’s concerns about privacy. If we were using a third-party form supplier, for example, do you want, if you’re filling in a form which says how many kids you’ve got, how many have died, and your health issues and all that, do you want that going to a third party to be processed? Some people will be comfortable with it. Some people will, rightly, be uncomfortable with it. We need to make sure that any solution that we pick actually addresses users’ very real concerns. There are several pieces of work around government trying to get forms right. Part of the problem is that each department has their own set of users, with their own set of user needs. If you are a, I don’t know… If you’re a farmer applying for a farm payment, you have very different needs to if you are a single mother applying for child benefit, to if you are a professional accountant trying to submit something to HMRC. So, just saying, “We’re going to have one standardised way of sending data to the government” might actually not work. We have to realise that users all have different needs. It’s tricky, and there are ways that we are helping with it, but I think that’s going to be a piece of work which is going to continue rumbling on, just because some of these processes are very old-fashioned, and they still rely on things being faxed across and being handwritten. Sarah Stewart: Faxed? That can’t be right. Actually, no, I can believe it Terence Eden: Lots of stuff just goes through via fax because, if you’ve got a computer system built in one department, and a computer system built by someone else in another department, and they don’t speak the same language, actually the easiest way to do something is to send a photo of that document across. That’s easiest and quickest. Fax is relatively quick, but it comes with all of this baggage and it doesn’t always work right. We see that fax machines are vulnerable to computer viruses and stuff like this. Sarah Stewart: And the noise. Terence Eden:   And the noise, but sometimes we have these little stopgaps, which are good enough for the time, but they never get replaced. Part of the work that we’ve done with the Open Standards Board is to make sure that all emergency services use a standard called ‘MAIT’ – Multi Agency Incident Transfer – which basically means you don’t need a police department to fax across details to an ambulance or to a coastguard. Their computers, even if they’re made by different people and run different operating systems and programs, they all speak to a common standard. So trying to find where those little bugs in the process are is part of our job. If people want to help out, if they know where problems are, if they come across to GitHub, we’re on ‘github.com/alphagov/open-standards’. They can raise an issue there and say, “Hey, there really ought to be an open standard for,” dot, dot, dot, or, “Look, this process really doesn’t make sense. There’s this open standard which would save us a lot of time and money. Can we adopt it?” It’s as simple as raising a GitHub issue with us. We do most of the hard work to find out whether it’s suitable, and we take it through a slightly convoluted process, but it keeps us legally in the clear. Yes, then we can, hopefully, mandate that across government and start the work on getting people to adopt it. Some of the stuff we do is small. Saying that text should be encoded using Unicode UTF-8, that just basically means that, when someone sends you a document with an apostrophe in it, it doesn’t turn into one of those weird… We call it ‘Mojibake’, where there are just weird symbols in place of- Sarah Stewart: The squares. Terence Eden: Yes, the weird squares. That is a really boring, low-level standard, but it just makes everything easy, all the way up to something like MAIT or International Aid Transparency Initiative, which allows you to see where all the foreign aid that we spend, and all the grants that we make, goes. That’s hugely important for understanding, if you’re a taxpayer, where your money is going, but, if you’re in the charity sector or the aid sector, understanding how government is using funds to improve lives. We don’t want information to be locked away in filing cupboards. We don’t want it so that, if you request some information, you have to send an FOI and then you get a scan of a fax posted off to you. That’s rubbish. We want this information front and centre so that, if people want to use it, it’s there, and that it works absolutely everywhere. It doesn’t matter which phone you’ve got, which computer you’ve got, you should be able to access all of the information that you’re entitled to, with no intermediaries, no having to pay for extra software. It should just be there. If we make things open, then we make things better. Sarah Stewart: Another area of focus for you is emerging technology - innovation is a hot topic in government at the moment with the publication of the tech innovation in government survey, the GovTech catalyst fund, and the development of an innovation strategy. How do we make sure that government doesn’t just grab at new fashionable tech because it’s new and fashionable? Terence Eden: The author William Gibson has a beautiful quote, which is, “The future is already here. It’s just not very evenly distributed yet.” That’s not really the case. The future isn’t here. We’ve got glimpses that, if we can build this huge dataset, then we will be able to artificial intelligence the blockchain into the cloud and magic will happen. You’re right: people just go a little starry-eyed over this. What we need in government is people who understand technology at a deep and fundamental level, not people who see what a slick sales team is selling, not people who read a report in a newspaper and go, “We could do that.” You need a fundamental understanding. Sarah Stewart: Do you really think it’s possible that every Civil Servant can understand the fundamentals of emerging technology and digital practice? Terence Eden:  Yes. Sarah Stewart: Because it can seem quite frightening. Terence Eden:  Yes, absolutely. We wouldn’t accept a civil servant who couldn’t read or write. We can be as inclusive as we like, but we need to set minimum standards for being able to engage with the work that we do. Similarly, we wouldn’t accept a civil servant who couldn’t type or use a computer in a basic way. I think there’s a lot of nonsense talked about digital natives. What a digital native is: someone whose parents were rich enough to buy them a computer when they were a kid. That’s great, but not everyone is that lucky, but what we can do is say, “We’re not going to just train you in how to fill in a spreadsheet. We’re going to teach you to think about how you would build a formula in a spreadsheet, how to build an algorithm,” and you can start building up on that. We have to be committed to lifelong learning in the civil service. It’s not good enough to say, “Okay, this is your job. You’re going to do it for the next 25 to 40 years, and there will be no change in it whatsoever.” That’s unrealistic. I think as part of that – and it’s not going to happen overnight – we need to make sure that when someone comes in and says, “We’re going to use an algorithm,” that everyone in the room not only understands that but is able to critique it, and potentially be able to write it, as well. I think that’s what the ‘Emerging Technology Development Programme’ is about, is making sure that civil servants can code, making sure that they understand how they would build an AI system, understand what the ethics are, learn about what the reasons for and against using a bit of technology like distributed ledgers are, because otherwise we end up with people just buying stuff which isn’t suitable. We have a slight problem in that we don’t want to tie ourselves to tech which is going to go out of date quickly. It would have been… You can imagine a GDS in the past saying, “Let’s put all of government onto Teletext.” That would be great, but that has a limited shelf life. We’ve got a statement which says that government shouldn’t build apps, because they’re really expensive to use, and they don’t work for everyone. Okay, maybe there are some limited circumstances where we can use them, but by and large we should be providing on neutral technology platforms, like the web. We need to understand exactly what the limitations are when we say, “Bitcoin, blockchain, the cloud, AI,” anything like that. So, there are new technologies, and we do adopt them. We can be slow to adopt them, and part of that is: are we chasing fashion, or are we chasing utility? It’s very easy to confuse the two. We wouldn’t, I think, go for transmitting government documents by Snapchat, for example. How cool would that be? Sarah Stewart: The filters, yes. Terence Eden: Brilliant, but what’s the user need for it? Is it just we want to do something that looks cool? That’s not a user need. Sarah Stewart: Yes. The amount of times I hear people talking about headsets, as though everybody in the country is going to have a VR headset. Terence Eden: Yes, we’re all going to be jacked into the cyber matrix, (Laughter) watching VR stuff. Yes, and maybe VR will take off; maybe we will… In a year’s time, I’ll be the head of VR for GDS. How cool a job title would that be? Sarah Stewart: Well, remember me, or look for me in the matrix. Terence Eden: Yes, but is there a user need for it? For some parts of government, you might say, if you’re doing planning decisions, for example, “Would it be good to strap on a VR headset and take a look around this 3D representation of the town after the remodelling or after the bypass has been built?” whatever it is. Okay, yes, you could make an argument for that. Do people want to interact with government in something like ‘Second Life’, or ‘Minecraft’, or ‘Fortnite’, (Laughter) or any of these things which are just coming out? Maybe. Sarah Stewart:  I’d love to see the customisable characters. Terence Eden: Yes, brilliant. We’ve got to be ever so slightly careful that this cool, shiny tech is going to last, because, if we make an investment in it, that’s other people’s money that we’re spending. When I was in the private sector, it’s shareholders’ money that you’re spending. It’s still someone else’s money that you’re spending, and you have to have a really good business case. It’s alright for us to experiment. Some people in Department for Transport are brilliant at this. Take an idea, run it for a few weeks, and don’t spend more than a few thousand pounds on it, and a few people’s time. Can it work? Does it work? If it doesn’t work, brilliant, we’ve saved money by saying, “Look, doing it this way is probably not going to work for us.” What we don’t want to do is go full in and say, “We’re going to make 3D ‘Angry Birds’ avatars of all civil servants, and then you can play them on your Oculus Rift, or something like that. It’s nonsense. Sarah Stewart: Is sandpit testing something that happens across government, it happens loads in the financial industry, but in government does that exist? Terence Eden: In part it does. One of the big problems that I see is people are afraid of failure. They shouldn’t be. If we were to say, “We are…” It’s very easy to run a procurement exercise and say, “We’re going to choose the best,” but sometimes what’s the necessary thing to do is, “We are going to ask three or four people to build something, to build a prototype in a few weeks, and we expect two of them to fail.” When you say that and you say, “Hang on, we’re going to spend money and we know that it’s going to fail?” Yes, but we don’t know which one is going to fail. We need to try four or five different approaches. Rather than wait until we’ve spent £1m and there’s a public enquiry on it, let’s get the failure out of the way as soon as possible. That’s really scary for people of all levels in the civil service, but it’s absolutely necessary. We need to experiment. We need to take risks – small, self-contained risks where, if it fails, okay, so we’ve spent a bit of money, but not an extortionate amount. We’ve spent a bit of time, but only a few weeks, and what we’ve come up with is: “You know what? Doing it that way, it just won’t work. We’ve experimented, we’ve failed, but that’s going to save us more money in the long term.” It’s a mind-set change, and it’s psychologically difficult to turn to your manager and say, “I want to fail at something, please,” but it’s absolutely necessary. Sarah Stewart: So somewhat related to that is learning and development. I know that you were involved in the pilot ‘Emerging Technology Development Programme’, which was run through the GDS Academy, could you tell more a bit more about that? Terence Eden: So, I’ve already gone on a course to learn ‘R’, which is statistical language. My statistics skills weren’t great, if I’m honest, so being able to learn how to use a really powerful tool like that, and start doing some machine learning on the data that we’re getting in, has been incredibly useful for my job, but I’m also going around talking to other civil servants about things like facial recognition and digital ethics. It’s really easy for us to see, “Wow, we can do something like face recognition. How cool would that be for our department?” but we also need to think about, “What are the problems? What are the dangers? What are the moral, legal, and ethical considerations that we have to do?” We know, for example, that, with a cheap webcam and some open-source code, you can do crude gender recognition, so you can say that “This face looks 90% male,” or, “80% female.” That might be useful in some circumstances, but it’s also particularly scary, and difficult, and troubling if you get it wrong, or if someone doesn’t want their born gender revealed, or anything like that. Where we see bright, shiny, new technology, “We could do something really cool with this,” we also need to temper it and say, “Well, what are the downsides? What are the moral limits to what we can do with this tech?” Sarah Stewart: You mention moral limits, and I would like to talk to you a little more about government and ethics, especially as it relates to emerging technology - what is our responsibility? Terence Eden: I’m not sure – I’m not a politician, obviously – I’m not sure whether it’s our place to say for the private sector, or for individuals, or for open-source projects what to do, but we absolutely have a duty to talk to civil servants about what they are responsible for. We have a civil service code, and it says that all of us have to act impartially, and a whole bunch of other things, but it doesn’t… It talks about acting in an ethical fashion, but it doesn’t necessarily address the code that we create. If you’re working in a big department, and you’ve got a big project and we’re going to create some cool machine-learning thing to look at data, then you should be doing an ethical review on that. The Department for – what are they called, ‘Data and Ethics’? Sarah Stewart: Oh we have the Centre for Data Ethics. Terence Eden: Centre for Data Ethics, yes. If you’ve got a big project that you’re working on, and you’re doing some big data, and you’re trying to learn something from there, then talking to the Centre for Data Ethics is a good thing. You should absolutely be doing it, but, if you’ve just got your laptop one lunchtime, and you’ve downloaded some open-source code from GitHub, and you’re running a machine-learning algorithm on a huge dataset, you can do that by yourself, with no oversight. Should you? What are the ethical considerations that you, as an individual, have to consider? Sarah Stewart: Okay, cast your mind back to July. You were at the National Cyber Security Centre. I was there, too. I saw you with a robot. What was all that about? Terence Eden: The robots are coming for us. There’s no doubt about that, (Laughter) but what we have to understand is, when we say, “The robots are coming for our jobs,” what jobs do we mean? What are the limits of robotics? What can they do? What can’t they do? We built a really simple Lego robot which solves a Rubik’s Cube. You can go online. The instructions are there. The source code is there. It took my wife and I an afternoon to build it, and this solves a Rubik’s Cube faster than nearly everyone in the building. There’s one person in this building who can beat it, so his job is safe. (Laughter) Okay, so government doesn’t sort Rubik’s Cubes, generally. That’s not our job, but we do lots of repetitive work with data which is just rote work. Can we train a robot to do that? How do we deal with edge cases? What are the limits when we start doing robotic process automation? That’s what people need to start thinking about now, is what value do they bring to a job which couldn’t be encoded in an algorithm? I think that’s a challenge for all of us. Sarah Stewart: Just to confirm, the robots are or aren’t coming for our jobs, specifically writers? Terence Eden: Yes. Do you have a spell check on your PC? Sarah Stewart: I do. Terence Eden: There we go. There is a piece of AI which is doing your job. We don’t think of that as AI, but there’s some really sophisticated technology going in to say, ‘Not only have you misspelt that word, because it doesn’t match the dictionary, but, looking at the context, you probably mean this word.’ Sarah Stewart: Yes. That’s already happened. Do you remember the Microsoft paperclip? It looks like you’re writing a letter. Terence Eden: Yes. Sarah Stewart: Actually, I was having a conversation with someone a couple of months ago about speechwriting and how, if you have all of the elements of speechwriting and a computer program, so kind of the rule of three, repetition, a story that includes a beginning, a middle and an end, you actually don’t really need a human to do that. Terence Eden:   Absolutely. Sarah Stewart: Although I probably shouldn’t say that, because I need my job. Terence Eden: I think what we’ll see more is robotic enhancement, if you like, so, as you say, writing a speech, maybe having Clippy coming in and saying, ‘You’re writing a speech. Do you need help with that?” isn’t- Sarah Stewart: Clippy, yes. Terence Eden: Maybe that’s not what you want, but having something which will gently guide you down the right path, making sure that your spelling and grammar is correct, that the structure is correct, that will all be great. Similarly, when you receive a document and your email program has already scanned it and gone, ‘Well, that’s the address, and this is the person who sent it,’ and things like that, you’re just being augmented a bit by a robot, by a bit of artificial intelligence. That’s slowly creeping in. I think lots of email programs now offer buttons at the bottom where you can just read the email and it says, ‘You can either reply, “Yes, that’s great,” or, “No, I need more time to think about it.”’ Realistically, that’s what you want to say, quite a lot of the time. So… Robots are coming for us all now. Sarah Stewart: As long as they don’t come for us in… I’ve seen, like, five films in my entire life, and there’s… Is it ‘I, Robot’, with Will Smith? At first the robots are friendly, and then in the second half I think the robots try to kill… This is like when I try to explain ‘Star Wars’ to you, and you actually know... Terence Eden: We need a podcast of you explaining ‘Star Wars’, because it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Sarah Stewart:  It’s really complex. Let’s talk about the past - you used to sell ringtones - what made you want to work here? Terence Eden: Working in the private sector is great, and working in the public sector is also great. I think people get really hung up about there being a difference, and there isn’t. I’ve worked for some of the biggest companies in the UK, and they have all the same problems that a large government department has. I’ve worked for tiny start-ups, and they can be just as agile as GDS is. There are positives and negatives. I’d spent a long time doing private sector stuff, and it was great fun, but I saw the work that GDS was doing and thought, “I want to be part of that. I want to be pushing the conversation forward. I want to make sure that the government, the civil service in the country where I live, is doing the right thing.” It’s really easy being on the outside, snarking, and I think we’ve all done it. (Laughter) It’s like, even if you’re just snarking about the train company or whoever it is, it’s really easy just to go, “They’re all useless,” nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, but it’s harder to come in and say, “Right, I’m going to try and push from the inside.” I don’t think I’m going to succeed at everything that I want, and I’m not coming in with the attitude that I’m going to revolutionise government. I think it would be dangerous if any one civil servant could do that. (Laughter) Sarah Stewart: I did try. Terence Eden: Did you? But I’ve come in with the attitude that there is a task here that I believe in that I think is important for this country and internationally. If we can lead the way, then we can help influence other people in other countries to do the right thing. That’s fantastic. I’ve met with government representatives from around Europe, from around the world, and they’ve been consistently impressed with what GDS is doing. Some of them are going, “You’ve got some open-source code. We’ll take that, thanks. Wow, these open standards principles that you’ve got, that makes complete sense for us. Yes, we’ll take it. We’ll shuffle it around to meet our local needs, and go off and do it.” That’s brilliant. This job wasn’t my career goal. It just so happened that all the work that I’d been doing with standards, and with open source and stuff like that, suddenly this job seemed to fit perfectly. I’ve not had a career plan. I’ve just, sort of, jumped from thing to thing that I found interesting and has coincided with what I’ve been doing anyway, so, yes, it’s mostly luck. Don’t get me wrong, ringtones are fun – but this is actually having a positive impact on people around the world. That’s great. I love it. I’m proud of the team. I’m proud of the work that we’ve done. I’m proud of the departments who have invited us in, been sceptical and gone, “No, alright, yes, we’re going to make some changes to that,” and I’m proud of the fact that, when we go around to departments, they quite often… I had a lovely chat with a department who said, “We’ve done this, and we’ve done that, and we’ve opened this, and we’ve opened that. How are we doing?” (Laughter) When I said, “My goodness, you are just streets ahead of everyone else,” they just beamed with pride. That was absolutely lovely. Sarah Stewart: For the uninitiated, can you explain what open standards are and what open source is? Terence Eden: They’re two very different things. Open standards means that, when you’ve got two computers that want to communicate, the language that they use is standardised. Everyone can understand it. We actually have a 48-point definition of open standards, which I’m not going to go onto here, but basically it’s the organisation which creates it. They create it in an open fashion. That means you can see the process by which it happens and that you can go in and make some changes. They publish it for free – we don’t want government departments to be spending thousands of pounds on standards again and again – and that they have wide international adoption. That’s what open standards are. It just means that our computers can work with computers around the world for free. Sarah Stewart: Tell me about open source. Terence Eden:   People have the right to see how decisions are being made. Open source is about… In one sense, it’s about publishing the code that we use to run bits of the country. You can see how the GOV.UK website is built. All the code is there, but when we start saying, “Okay, this is how a decision is made, this is how systems integrate with each other,” we should be publishing that. There are several good reasons for doing this. Firstly is it increases trust. If you can see, if you’re a user and you can see how this code works, hopefully you will trust it more. Sarah Stewart: So how are we doing in the world stage on open standards? Terence Eden:   Good. Could do better, but I always think we can do better. We’re involved with some EU committees around the world, and we are one of the few governments which are on the W3C, the World Wide Web Consortium’s advisory committee. Yes, we are going out, we are leading the way in certain areas, but what we’re seeing – and I think this is fascinating – is some countries leapfrogging us. When I worked for the mobile phone industry, one of the problems with the UK was we had this huge investment in 2G networks, and then another huge investment in 3G networks. You would find countries in Africa which never had, even, landlines before, going, “We’ll just build a 3G network.” They don’t have any of that legacy investment, so they were able to leapfrog us in terms of speed, and connectivity, and price. GDS has been going for, is it, like, six years now? Sarah Stewart: Seven. I think we’re approaching our seventh. Terence Eden: Six, seven years, yes, so, naturally, we’ve got a lot of legacy stuff that we’ve built up. That means some processes which are a bit slow, and that’s fine, but then you see other countries who’ve skipped to the end. They said, “Okay, so we’ve seen all the mistakes GDS have made. We’ve seen what they’ve come out with at the end. We’ll just take that end piece and run with it.” Brilliant, that’s great. I think we have paved the way for lots of people, but there’s always more we can do. Sarah Stewart: So internationally, who do you think is doing good work - which governments are piquing your interest? Terence Eden:  I’ve got to give a shout out to New Zealand. I think they’re doing some amazing things, making their government more open, more transparent, getting on board the open source and the open standards train. That’s partly – that’s entirely – a testament to the people who work in New Zealand’s public service. They absolutely get it, and we’re seeing them spread out around. I know that some of them have gone off to Australia, which is great. We’ve got some GDS alumna off in Canada, and now they are doing brilliant stuff. One of the lovely things about Canada is lots of their digital strategy is on GitHub, so you can just go along and say, “Hang on, you could do something better there,” or even as simple as, “There’s a spelling mistake there,” and fix it. I think that’s wonderful for openness. Sarah Stewart: You’re a bug hunter yourself, aren’t you? Terence Eden: I am, yes. Sarah Stewart: You’re in Google’s Hall of Fame. Terence Eden: My wife and I are, yes. Sarah Stewart: Oh both of you? Terence Eden: Yes. No – well, it was my wife who discovered the bug, and then I reported it, so we’re joint recipients, think. Sarah Stewart: What was the bug? Terence Eden: So Google Calendar, if you typed up a reminder to yourself which said, ‘Email boss@work.com about pay rise,’ if you put that in the subject line, it would automatically copy it to your boss’ calendar. Sarah Stewart: That’s a big bug, isn’t it? Terence Eden: Yes. Basically, yes that’s what happened, so we reported it and they fixed it, but finding bugs is good fun. If people find bugs in government, they should tell us, because we’ll fix them. Sarah Stewart:  So what does your vision of a future government look like, a successful future government, look like? Terence Eden: The government of the future – I hope – will be more open, and it will be more collaborative. I don’t want GDS to be a single government department. I want GDS to be everywhere. I want everyone to know what good looks like and how to code in the open. I think the government of the future will have fewer barriers. Someone asked me the other day what department I was in, and I said, “GDS.” They went, “No, which subdivision of GDS?” I haven’t got a clue. I just work for GDS. Really, I work for Cabinet Office. If I’m completely honest, I work for the civil service. If someone from DWP says, “I need some help with something,” I’m going to go and help them. Of course I will. If someone from anywhere in the country in the civil service says, “We need some help with this,” why wouldn’t I go and help them? I think we need to break down these barriers. If the best team at content design happens to be in Defra, or wherever, great, we should be learning from them. They should be teaching us. I would love it not only if the government of the future was more open, and more transparent, and more open source, and used more open standards, but that the civil service was really just one civil service. It wasn’t just based in London, and that we can… It’s not based in London now, but that we felt free to move more or less anywhere within it and give people the help, and the advice, and the support that they need, and learn from anyone in any department, because we are not Defra, and DWP, and Department for Health and anything else. We’re not. We are one team, OneTeamGov. Sarah Stewart:  It’s really interesting that you've said that – we’re actually recording a podcast with Kit Collingwood from OneTeamGov and DWP fame in December. Okay final question – you’ve hacked your vacuum, your car is on Twitter, your house turns off when you leave it – what’s next? Terence Eden:  The next thing that I’m interested in is biohacking. So I’ve got some fake nails, just like fashion nails, and they’ve got a small bit of computer circuitry in, which is kind of like your Oyster card. It’s an NFC chip, and they glow when I put them around electromagnetic fields, so, if I’m on the tube and I put my hand against an Oyster card reader, my fingertips glow. You can also put data on there, so I can transfer data from my fingertips. That’s kind of silly, but I’m fascinated by how we can enhance people. What are the things that we can put on us and in us which will make us better? That’s what I’m interested in. Sarah Stewart: Terence, thank you so much. Terence Eden: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure. Sarah Stewart: That brings us to the end of this month’s podcast. I hope you enjoyed it and that you’ll listen again next month when we talk to another interesting person about interesting things. Until then, farewell.  

    In this episode, we interview outgoing head of GOV.UK Neil Williams about his time at GDS, learning about agile and scaling the nation's website. The full transcript of the interview follows: Angus Montgomery: Hello and welcome to the very first episode of the Government Digital Service podcast. My name’s Angus Montgomery, I’m a senior writer at GDS and for this episode I’m going to be talking to Neil Williams, who is the head of GOV.UK. And Neil is leaving GDS shortly for an exciting new job, so we’re going to be talking to him about that and also talking to him about his time at GDS, because he’s been here since the very beginning. So I hope you enjoy this episode and let’s go straight into the conversation. Neil Williams: I'm going to Croydon Council. So leaving not only GDS- Angus Montgomery: South London? Neil Williams: South London. South London is the place to be, I have to say. Yes, not only leaving GDS, but leaving the Civil Service actually, because local government is not the Civil Service of course, to go and work in Croydon as Chief Digital Officer for the council there. They've got a lot of ambition, and it’s a really exciting time for Croydon. People laugh when I say that. Angus Montgomery: I just laughed as well. I didn’t mean to. Neil Williams:  Croydon has this reputation that is completely unwarranted, and we’re going to prove the world wrong. It’s changing massively. It’s already gone through a lot of change. You're probably aware of some stuff. It’s got a Boxpark. There’s a lot of reporting around the Westfield/Hammerson development that might be happening, which we very much hope is happening. Also Croydon Tech City. So Croydon’s got a lot of growth in the tech industry, tech sector. Fantastic companies starting up and scaling up in Croydon, and that’s all part of the story. Plus the stuff that’s more in my wheelhouse, that I've been doing here in GDS around transforming services. Making the public services that Croydon provides to residents and business to be as good as they should be. As good as everything else that people expect in their day to lives using digital services these days. Angus Montgomery: So not much on your plate then? Neil Williams: It’s quite a big job. I'm excited about it. There’s a lot about it that’s new, which is kind of giving me a new lease of energy, the fact that I've got this big challenge to face and lots of learning to do. Which reminds me a lot about how I felt when I first working with GDS in fact. Just how exciting I found the prospect of coming and working for this organisation, and being part of this amazing revolution. I'm feeling that again actually about the job in Croydon, [00:02:33] about the work to be done there. It seems like the right time. It’s a perfect time and place, where I am in my career, those things coming together. It’s a really good match. So it came up, and I put in for it, and lo and behold I am now Chief Digital Officer in Croydon Council from mid-October. Angus Montgomery: You’ve been at GDS since before the beginning, haven’t you? Seven, eight years? Neil Williams:  Yes, I was working it out this morning. It’s seven years and two months. I was 34 when I started working in GDS. I'm 42 now. I just had my birthday last week. Angus Montgomery: Full disclosure. Neil Williams: Yes. That’s maybe too much information to be sharing. I didn’t have grey hair when I started. My youngest child was just born, and he’s nearly eight now. So yes, it’s been a really big part of my life. Angus Montgomery: So you can track your late 30s and early 40s through images of you standing in front of number 10? Neil Williams: Yes, and unfortunately quite a few embarrassing pictures of me on the GDS flicker. (Laughter) There have been a few regrettable outfits for celebrations and milestones launching GOV.UK, and celebrating GOV.UK birthdays, where looking back on it I may not have worn those things if I had known it was going to be on the internet forever. (Laughter) Angus Montgomery: Now you say that, there’s an image of you… I'm trying to remember. I think it’s at the Design Museum, when GOV.UK won the Designs of the Year, and you're wearing a Robocop t-shirt. (Laughter) Neil Williams: Yes, I am. I can tell that story if you like. That’s one of my proudest GDS moments, I think. Maybe we will get to that later. Do you want me to do it now? Angus Montgomery: Well, no. Let us know where that came from, because this is… Well, just as a bit of context, because I've gone straight into that, but you’ve been head of GOV.UK since the beginning, and in 2012, shortly after GOV.UK launched, it won the Design Museum’s Design of the Year Award, which is an incredible accolade. I can’t remember what it beat, but I think it beat several…  That’s one of those awards where they judge things like buildings, and cars, and new products, and mad graphic design. So for a government website to win that award was really incredible, I think. Neil Williams: Yes. Actually, we were talking about it the other day, and Mark Hurrell, the head designer on GOV.UK, he said it’s actually the first time a website ever won that award, which I had completely forgotten. Yes, it was amazing. That was 2013. We had launched GOV.UK in 2012, as in replacing Directgov and Business Link, which were the previous big super sites for public services. Then we were well into the next phase, which was shutting down and replacing all of the websites of departments of state. I was very much working on that bit of it at the time. My head was down and working very attentively, in this fairly crazy timescale, to shut down those websites, and starting to look at how we were going to start closing down the websites of 350 arms-length bodies. A huge project. In the midst of that, in the midst of that frantic busy period, someone approached me. It was Tom Loosemore, Etienne Pollard. One of those early GDS leaders. Saying, “Oh, there’s an award ceremony. We’ve been nominated for an award, and we need some people to go. Can you go to it?” Angus Montgomery: “We need some people to go.” That’s an attractive… (Laughter) Neil Williams: Yes. It was just like, “We need a few people to make sure we’re going to be represented there.” Angus Montgomery: “To fill the seats.” (Laughter) Neil Williams: I now know that they knew that we were going to win, but I didn’t know that, at all, at the time, and I didn’t really think much of it. “Oh, yes, fine. Yes, I will go along to that. That’s no problem at all.” I think it was the same day. I'm not sure whether it was that same day or a different day when I was given notice, but anyway, I didn’t think much of it. I didn’t dress up for the occasion. So I rock up to the Design Museum in my jeans and in my Robocop t-shirt, an OCP logo on it. The evening included quite a lot of free alcohol. It was quite a glitzy affair, and I was definitely under-dressed for the occasion, but I thought, “That’s fine. We’re just here to be part of an audience.” Hanging around at the back, having the free canapes, partaking of the plentiful free wine that was being distributed. Then Griff Rhys Jones, who was presenting the award, gets up on stage and announces the winners in each category, and we won our category. Much triumphant jubilation and celebration. Then went on to reveal that we won the whole thing. We won the Design of the Year Award as a whole. Which then led to this photo call. By which point I was quite drunk as well. I had no idea this was going to happen. Yes, so there’s that famous photo of a bunch of GDS people accepting the award, all quite smartly dressed, apart from me letting the side down with my Robocop t-shirt. Angus Montgomery: Tell me how you got involved in this thing in the first place. You’ve been in the Civil Service before, but you're not a career civil servant, are you? Or you hadn’t been. Neil Williams: Well, yes. I would like to think of myself as not being a career civil servant. I started in the private sector, in a communications publishing agency. It was a magazine agency. I thought I wanted to be a journalist actually. I did English at university. I thought I wanted to be a journalist. Went into publishing. Was passionate about publishing and the power of the printed word. Distributing information to people. Equipping them with information. Informing people and so forth. I went into corporate publishing, as a way to learn about publishing, but whilst I was working for that company the internet was becoming a bigger deal, a bigger thing. I was also mucking around in my spare time with comedy websites. That was known by my employers, who then said, as they were starting to think about, “How do we get in on this?” they asked me if I wanted to run the London office of their new digital offering to their clients. I leapt at the chance. That was a really good leg up for me. That’s where I learnt about digital, about building websites. So that was a great place, where I learnt… I said I wanted to be in publishing and journalism. The information is power thing excited me, and of course doing that digitally, doing that online, massively more so. More empowering people. I fell in love instantly with the immediacy of what you get with publishing to the web, and providing services over the web, and getting the feedback, and being able to improve based on the fact that you can see in real time what users are doing. That’s been my passion ever since. After a few years of doing that… That is now a dwindling small part of my career, when you look back on it, so it’s probably true to say that I am a career civil servant. A few years in a digital agency. Then I wanted to see the other side of things, and be client side, and see something through to its outcomes, rather than just build a thing and hand it over. I joined the Civil Service. I joined the government communications profession. Angus Montgomery: I know it well. Neil Williams: And my first gig was in the Department for Trade and Industry, as it was then, as an assistant information officer. A young, eager civil servant. There were some digital elements to that job, but actually quite a lot of my earliest Civil Service gig was going to Number 10 every week to do the grid meeting, which is the Alastair Campbell era. It’s still the process now. And I was moving around within the department. So there’s an eight-year period, which I'm not going to go into in any detail,where I moved around between different departments, doing digital things. I worked my way up the greasy pole of the Civil Service. From a web manager, managing a bit of a website and looking after the content and the information architecture, through to running whole teams, running the website, intranet, social media side of things. During those years I did a lot of work on product development, around online consultation tools and digital engagement platforms. And lots of frustration actually. So this brings us to the beginning of the GDS story. Angus Montgomery: This is the 2010 Martha Lane Fox bombshell? Neil Williams: Yes. The old way, the traditional way, and this is pretty common not just in government but everywhere, websites sprung out of being a thing led by communications teams. “It’s just another channel for us to do our communications.” And it is, but it is also, as we all now know, the way that people do their business and transact. People come to your website to do a thing, to use a service, to fulfil a need. It took a long time for the Civil Service to recognise that. For many years myself and others in the digital communications teams within departments were getting increasingly frustrated. A lone voice really. Trying within our departments to show them the data that we had and go, “Look, people are coming for things that we’re not providing them with. We need to do a better job of this.” A lot of that falling on deaf ears, not getting prioritised in the way that it needed to, and also clearly fragmented across thousands of websites, across all of these organisations. A lot of great work was done before GDS, and this story has been told on the History of GDS series of blog posts, which if people haven’t seen are really well worth looking at. Tom Loosemore has talked about this before, about standing on the shoulders of giants. There was enormous effort, over many, many years, to digitise government, to centralise things, to put users first. Directgov and Business Link were the current incarnations of that, of a service-led approach, but it was just a small proportion of the overall service offering from government, and it was still really quite comms focused. The conversations were about reach, and there was advertising to try and promote the existence of these channels, etc. Lots of it was written from the perspective of the department trying to tell people what they should do, rather than understanding what it is that people are trying to do and then designing things that meet those needs. So GDS. In 2010, this is a really well-told story, and people are pretty familiar with it now, but 2010 Martha Lane Fox was commissioned to review the government’s website, particularly Directgov. She took a broader remit, and looked at the whole thing, and, in summary, said, “Start again.” Angus Montgomery: ‘Revolution, not evolution’. Neil Williams: ‘Revolution, not evolution’. Yes, that was the title. Angus Montgomery: And everyone at GDS, or who has been at GDS, has said, like Tom, that we’re standing on the shoulders of giants, and huge amounts of work was done beforehand, but why do you think Martha’s report was such a turning point? Because it was, because it led to a huge amount of change. Neil Williams: Yes. It’s a really pithy, succinct little letter. It’s not reams and reams of paper. It was just quite a simple call to action really. Which was to say, “You need to take ownership of the user experience, in a new organisation, and empower a new leader, and organisation under that leader, to do that, to take a user-led approach.” That was the different thing. Take a user-led approach, and to use the methods that are being used everywhere used. Government had not yet really caught up to what was going on in the wider technology industry around ways of working, agile and so forth, around working iteratively, experimentally, and proving things early. Rather than upfront requirement specs, and then out comes something at the end which you then later discover doesn’t work. Those were the two things really. It was that focus on user needs, and work in that different way, which was bringing skills into government that hadn’t been here before. Design, and user research, and software development skills that hadn’t previously been done in-house. It had always been outsourced. Angus Montgomery: So it was a clear and simple strategy, or strategic direction, from Martha Lane Fox’s report. There was a clear mandate. This has been talked about a lot, that we had, or GDS had, Francis Maude backing it at a very high level, and giving it the mandate to- Neil Williams: Yes, absolutely. That was the other thing. It wasn’t just Martha’s letter. It was absolutely a kind of perfect storm of political will and the timing being right. Yes, the Martha letter came out when I was Head of Digital Comms, or some title like that, at the Department for Business. I had moved around between departments. Ended up back in the Department for Business again. It was advocating something pretty radical, that would be a threat really to the digital comms view, to a comms-led view of controlling our channels. That was an interesting situation to find myself in, right? I was reading this stuff from Martha and thinking, “This is brilliant. This is what we’ve been waiting for. This is absolutely the right thing.” But then internally my job required me to do some more maybe circumspect briefing to the minister and to the director of comms about, “Actually, well, this is a risk to us.” So I was doing both of those things. I was talking internally about the positives of what this could mean for government, but the risks to our organisation, but publicly I blogged… I thought, “This is brilliant.” I blogged enthusiastically, because I had a personal blog at the time, about my thoughts on how this could be the beginning of something really exciting. That’s the thing that led me to meeting Tom Loosemore. Tom Loosemore, who as we all know is one of the early architects of GDS, saw my blog post, and got in touch and said, “Let’s have a chat.” And that’s how my journey into GDS started. It started by answering that email from Tom Loosemore and going for pizza with him. Angus Montgomery: The power of blogging. Neil Williams: Yes. We had a chat over pizza, where he was talking about his ideas for getting an alpha. Getting a team together that could produce something quickly, as a sort of throwaway prototype, that would show a different way of working. Tom was saying stuff that was exciting but contained many new words. (Laughter) He was talking about alphas and agile ways of working. I don’t know what these things are. Angus Montgomery: Now we’re at a stage, at GDS and throughout government, where agile is a touchstone of how we work, and it’s accepted that doing things in agile is doing things better, and there’s lots of opportunity for people to learn how that works, and what that means, and apply that to the things that they do, but at the time, as you said, this didn’t really exist in government. You, as someone who had worked in government, probably didn’t know what agile was. Neil Williams: No. Angus Montgomery: How did you learn about it, and how did you know that this was the right approach? Neil Williams: A mix of reading up on it. Initially just going home and Googling those new words and finding out about these ways of working. But also it immediately spoke to me. I had been through several years of several projects where I had felt just how awful and frustrating it is to build websites in a waterfall way. I've got some very difficult experiences that I had at [BEIS], when we rebuilt the website there, and it was project managed by a very thorough project manager in a waterfall way. I was the Senior Responsible Officer, I think, or Senior User I think it is in PRINCE2 language, for the website. As the website was progressing we had a requirements document upfront, all that way of working. We were specifying, with as much predicting the future and guesswork as we possibly can, a load of stuff, and writing it down, around, ‘This is what the website needs to do. This is what the publishing system needs to do’. Then handing that over to a supplier, who then starts to try and interpret that and build that. During that process, seeing as the thing is emerging, and we’re doing the user acceptance testing and all of that stuff on it, that this is just far away from the thing that I had in my head. So there’s already a gap between the written word and then the meaning that goes into the heads of the people who are then building that thing. Then also all of the change that’s occurring at the same time. Whilst we are building that thing the world is not staying still, and there is an enormous amount of change in our understanding around what we want that thing to do. Trying to get those changes in, but facing the waterfall approach, rigid change control process, and just feeling like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. It was really frustrating. Then when I… Back to the question about how do I learn about agile, and some of these new concepts, it was really only when I got in there. I knew what the bad thing felt like, and I knew that that wasn’t right. I knew that you absolutely need to embrace the change as part of the process, embrace learning as part of the process of delivering something as live and ever changing as a website. Then I came in as a product manager, initially part-time, and then full-time when GDS was properly established and able to advertise a role, and started working with Pete Herlihy, who is still here now in GDS. Angus Montgomery: Yes, on Notify. Neil Williams: Yes, he’s lead product manager on Notify now, but back then he was delivery manager. Again, Tom Loosemore was making stuff happen behind the scenes. He was the person who introduced me and Pete. He said something along the lines of, “Neil’s the guy who knows what needs to happen, and Pete’s the guy who knows how to make it happen. You two should talk.” So we did. I learnt a lot of what I now know from working with Pete and working as we then built out a team. Working with some terrific talented software developers, designers, content designers, and so forth, and user researchers, in a multidisciplinary way. Learning on the job what it meant to be a product manager. Obviously, reading up about it. I went on a few courses, I think, too. But mostly learning on the job. Zooming back out a little bit to the GDS career experience, I've learnt so much here. I've never learnt as much probably in the whole of the rest of my career as I've learnt in my time here. Angus Montgomery: Because that first year was learning about agile, putting a team together. Learning how to build this thing. Learning how to land it. At what stage did you realise, “Oh, we’ve done this now. This thing is landing, and it’s getting big, and it’s successful. Oh, wow. We’re in charge of a piece of national infrastructure now”? Neil Williams: That’s an interesting question. I always knew it would. We knew what we were building at the start. We knew we were building something- Angus Montgomery: So you never had any doubts that this was going to work? Neil Williams: Oh, God, yes. We had absolute doubt. The prevailing view when we started was that, “This will not work.” Not internally. Internally, it was certainly a stretch goal. (Laughter) It was ambitious, and it felt a little bit impossible, but in a really exciting way. That is one of the key ingredients of success, is you want your team to feel like something is only just about doable. (Laughter) There’s nothing more motivating than a deadline and a nearly impossible task. Also a bunch of naysayers saying, “This will never work.” And that really united us as a team. Angus Montgomery: So what then happened? Because I think we talk quite a lot about the early years, and a lot has been written, obviously, and GDS was blogging like crazy in those days about the early stages, and how quickly you built the thing, and how quickly you transitioned onto it. One thing that we have talked about as GDS, but probably not in as great detail, is what happened when it then got big, and you had to deal with issues of scale, and you had to deal with issues of… Something a lot of people on GOV.UK have talked to me about is tech debt. That you built this thing very quickly and you had quite a bit of tech debt involved. How did you deal with that? Presumably you always knew this was a problem you were going to have to face. Neil Williams: Yes, to a degree. That 14 people that did a bit on alpha scaled very rapidly to being 140 people. There were lots of teams working in parallel, and building bits of software just in time, like I was just talking about. Just in time for… “We’re not going to build anything we don’t have to build. We’re just going to build what’s necessary to achieve the transition, to shut these other websites down and bring them all in.” But that approach means you're laying stuff on top of other stuff, and things were getting built by different teams in parallel, adding to this growing code base, and in some cases therefore duplicative stuff happening. Where maybe we’ve built one publishing system for publishing a certain kind of format of content, another publishing system for publishing another kind of format of content. Then in the process we’ve ended up with two different ways of doing something like attachments, asset management. Then we’ve got complexity, and we’ve got bits of code that different teams don’t know how to change without quite a steep learning curve, and so on. And that was the case everywhere. Given the pace of how fast we were going, and how ambitious the timescales were for shutting down what turned out to be 1,882 websites… (Laughter) Exactly. It was incredible. We knew, yes. We knew. It was talked about. It was done knowingly, that, “We are making things here that we’re going to have to come back to. That are going to be good enough for now, and they’re going to achieve what we need to achieve, but they will need fixing, and they will need replacing and consolidating.” So we absolutely knew, and there was much talk of it. Quite a lot of it got written down at the time as ‘This is some tech debt that we’re going to definitely need to come back to’. Yes, we weren’t blind to that fact, but I think the degree of it, and the amount of time it took to resolve it, was slightly unexpected. That’s partly because of massive personnel change as well. Straight off the back of finishing… Well, I say finishing. GOV.UK is never finished. Let’s just get that out there. Always be iterating. GOV.UK’s initial build, and the transition, and the shutting down, the transition story of shutting down those 1,882 websites, had an end date, and that end date felt like a step change to many people. As in lots of people came into GDS in those early days to do the disruptive thing. To do the start-up thing. To do Martha’s revolution. Then at that moment of, “Actually, we’ve now shut down the last website,” to lots of those people that felt like, “Now we’re going into some other mode. Now we’re going into actually we’re just part of government now, aren’t we? I don’t know. Do I necessarily want to be part of that?” So there was some natural drifting away of some people. Plus, also, the budget shrank at that point. The project to do the transition was funded and came to an end. So actually we were going to go down to an operational smaller team anyway. So a combination of attrition, of people leaving anyway, plus the fact that we did need to get a bit smaller. Also, at that time, that’s when the early founders of GDS left. Mike Bracken, Tom Loosemore, Ben Terrett left around that time. Which also led to some other people going, “Well, actually, I came here for them. I came here with them. And I'm leaving too.” So that meant that we had the tech debt to deal with at a time when we also had quite a lot of new stuff. We had all of this unknown and not terribly well-documented code, that was built really quickly, by lots of different people, in different ways. Plus people who weren’t part of that joining the team, and looking at it and going, “Oh, what have we got here? Where do I start with this?” (Laughter) So it took a long time. I think it’s common in agile software development to underestimate how long things might take. It’s an industry problem that you need to account for. Angus Montgomery: Well, this is the interesting thing, because it feels to me as an observer that there have been three main stages of GOV.UK so far. There’s the build and transition, which we’ve talked about quite a lot. There’s the growth and sustainability years, I suppose, where you were sorting out the tech debt, and you were making this thing sustainable, and you were dealing with departmental requests, and you were putting in structures, and process, and maturing it. Now it feels like we’re in a new stage, where a lot of that structural stuff has been sorted out, and that means you can do really exciting things. Like the work that Kate Ivey-Williams, and Sam Dub, and their team have been doing on end-to-end services. The work that’s been going on to look at voice activation on GOV.UK. And the work that’s been done that Nicky Zachariou and her team have been looking at, machine learning, structuring the content. And it feels like now, having sorted out those fundamentals, there’s a whole load of stuff we can do. Neil Williams: Yes, absolutely. We’re iterating wildly again, I would say. (Laughter) We’re back to that feeling of early GOV.UK, where we’re able to turn ideas into working software and working product relatively quickly again. Some of the stuff we’re doing now is greenfield stuff. Again, a lot of the ideas we had way back when, in the early days of GDS, about making the publishing system really intuitive, and giving data intelligence to publishers, so that they can understand how services are performing, and see where to prioritise, and get really rich insights about how their stuff as a department is working for users, we’re getting to that now. We’re starting to rebuild our publishing tools with a proper user-centric design. Which we didn’t do enough of, because we had to focus on the end users more in the early days. It’s great to be doing that now. We’re also deleting some stuff, which were the mistakes that I made. (Laughter) Which feels good on my way out. Some of the things that we did, that have stuck around way longer than we intended them to, are now being deleted. We’re now able to go, “Actually, we know now, we’ve known for a while, that this isn’t the right solution,” and we’re able to change things more radically. Yes, we’re doing really exciting stuff. Thanks for mentioning it. Angus Montgomery: What are you most excited about? Because Jen Allum, who was lead product manager on GOV.UK for a couple of years, I think, she’s taking over now as head of GOV.UK after you leave. What are you most excited about seeing her and the team do? What do you think is the biggest challenge that they face? Neil Williams: I'm thrilled that Jen is taking over the job. She obviously knows the product, knows the team really, really well, and she’s absolutely brilliant. There is some incredibly exciting stuff happening right now, which I will be sad not to be here for. You mentioned one of them. That’s the step-by-step navigation product, which is our solution for, “How do you create an end-to-end holistic service that meets a whole user need?” If you’ve been following GDS at all, which if you're listening to this podcast you probably have, then you will have seen stuff from Lou Downe, Kate Ivey-Williams, many other people, around end-to-end services and what we mean by services and service design. Around good services being verbs and bad services being nouns. Government has the habit of creating schemes, and initiatives, and forms, and giving them names, and then they stick around for a very long time. Users end up even having to learn those names in some cases. The classic example is, “I want to SORN my car.” What the hell does that even mean? Whereas actually what they want to do is take their car off the road. It’s an actual thing that an actual human wants to do. Nearly every interaction or task that you have with government requires more than one thing. You need to look at some content. You might need to transact. You might need to fill in a form. You might need to go and do some stuff that’s not with government. You might need to read something, understand what the rules are, and then go and do something offline. If you're a childminder you’ve got a step there, which is you’ve got to go and actually set up your space and get it inspected. Then you come back, and there’s more to do with government. Those things need setting out clearly for people. It’s still the case now. Despite all of the great work that we’ve done on GOV.UK to improve all of this stuff, it’s still far too much the case that people have to do all of that work themselves. They have to piece together the fragments of content, and transactions, and forms that they need to do. So what we are doing with our step-by-step navigation product is that’s a product output of a lot of thinking that’s been happening in GDS for many years, around, “How do you join services together, end-to-end, around the user?” We’ve got that product. It’s been tested. It works really, really well. To look at you might just look at it and go, “Well, there’s not much to that, is there? That’s just some numbered steps and some links.” Yes, it is, but getting something that looks that simple, and that really works, is actually a ton of work, and we’ve put in a huge amount of work into proving that, and testing that, and making sure that really works. Making it as simple as it is. The lion’s share of that work is actually in the service design, and in the content design, going, “Let’s map out what is… Well, first of all let’s understand what the users need. Then let’s map out what are the many things that come together, in what order, in order to meet that need.” Angus Montgomery: Before we wrap up I just wanted to ask you to give a couple of reflections on your time at GDS. What’s the thing you're most proud of, or what was your proudest moment? Neil Williams: That’s tricky. I've been here a long time. I've done a lot of… I say I've done a lot of good stuff. I've been around whilst some really good stuff has happened. (Laughter) Angus Montgomery: You’ve been in the room. (Laughter) Neil Williams: Right. I've had a little bit to do with it. It’s got to be the initial build, I think. Other than wearing a Robocop t-shirt to a very formal event, which I'm still proud of, it’s got to be the initial build of GOV.UK and that was the thing that I was directly involved with and it was just the most ridiculous fun I've ever had. I can’t imagine ever doing something as important, or fast paced, or ridiculous as that again. There were moments during that when… Actually, I don’t think I can even tell that story probably. (Laughter) There were some things that happened just as a consequence of the speed that we were going. There are funny memories. That’s all I'm going to say about that. If you want to- Angus Montgomery: Corner Neil in a pub or café in South London if you want to hear that story in the future. What was the scariest moment? Or what was the moment when you thought, “Oh, my God, this might not actually work. This thing might fall apart”? Or were there moments like that? Neil Williams: I don't know. No, I think we’ve always had the confidence, because of the talent that we’ve brought in, the capability and the motivation that everyone has. When bad things have happened, when we’ve had security threats or any kind of technical failures, just the way that this team scrambles, and the expertise that we’ve got, just means that I'm always confident that it’s going to be okay. People are here in GDS because they really care,and they’re also incredibly capable. The best of the best. I'm not saying that’s an organisation design or a process that I would advocate, that people have to scramble when things fail, but in those early days, when GOV.UK was relatively newly launched, and we were going through that transition of from being built to run, those were the days where maybe the operations weren’t in place yet for dealing with everything that might come at us. There was a lot of all hands to the pump scrambling in those days, but it always came right and was poetry to watch. (Laughter) Those moments would actually be the moments where you would be most proud of the team and to be part of it. When it comes down to it these people are really amazing. Angus Montgomery: Finally, what’s the thing you are going to miss the most? Neil Williams: Well, it’s the people, isn’t it? That’s a cheesy thing to say, but it’s genuinely true. I've made some amazing friends here. Some people who I hope I can call lifelong friends. Many people who have already left GDS, who I'm still in touch with and see all the time. It’s incredible coming into work and working with people who are so likeminded, and so capable, and so trusting of each other, and so funny. I laugh all the time. I come into work and it’s fun. It’s so much fun. And we’re doing something so important, and we’re supporting each other. The culture is just so good, and the people are what makes that. Cheesy as it may be, it’s you Angus. I'm going to miss you. Angus Montgomery: It’s all about the people. Oh, thank you. That was a leading question. (Laughter) Neil Williams, thank you so much for doing that and best of luck in the future. We will miss you lots. Neil Williams:  Thanks very much. Thank you. Angus Montgomery: So that wraps up the very first Government Digital Service podcast. I hope you enjoyed it - we’re aiming to do lots more episodes of this, we’re aiming to do around 1 episode a month and we’re going to be talking to lots of exciting and interesting people both inside GDS and outside GDS and we’re going to be talking about things like innovation and digital transformation and user-centred design and all sorts of interesting things like that, so if you’d like to listen to future episodes please go to wherever it is you get your podcasts and subscribe to listen to us in the future. And I hope you enjoyed that episode and I hope you listen to more. Thankyou very much.

Shirlene Reeves, your host, interacts and discusses with Terry Wildemann the importance of;Overcoming the fear and anxiety around sales while participating in Earth School.Learn about our newly activated monthly surprise where you can chime in with your questions on Facebook at https://fb.me/AscendedMastersAtWorkThe importance of reading a person intuitively for connectionThe Rotten Tomato story told by Terry WildemannDiscover what it's like to be intuitive and if you are, which modality you are most comfortable utilizing for guidance.#Business, #Intuition, #Sales, #Spirit, #SellingThroughYourHeart, #PodcastTranscriptWelcome to Ascended Masters At Work radio with your host Shirlene Reeves, the world's business success coach and author of Selling Through Your Heart - Empowering You To Build Relationships For Financial Freedom, where we focus on taking the right step-by- step actions towards generating a consistent business income. Listen in as Shirlene empowers small business owners. On Ascended Masters At Work radio you'll discover the secrets to building an effective, income generating business, find the answers for selling your programs and products without rejection and get the solutions for building a strong financial foundation. Get coaching with Shirlene Reeves, and her guests, on how to develop integrated programs so compelling that your clients can't resist saying yes. Now let's welcome your host, business success coach Shirlene Reeves. Hello my friends. It's wonderful to be here with you today. We have a great program. We're going to start off with a little fireside chat because I really am looking forward to sharing some very important information with you. I have some great news. I was doing my meditation the other day and spirit said to me, "I think you should start teaching more about how people can work with each other and how they can do business together." And the other thing that they suggested is that I have a person who does channeling once a month that talks to us about what's going on in the economy or what's going on in the world and why we're experiencing these things. We've got volcanoes popping off. We have freezing rain on the Big Island. Who would think? I've never heard of such a thing and neither have the scientists. We have the strangest things going on so I invited Maha Kury come on the show. She's going to be talking to us, once a month, to let us know answers to the questions that you provide us. So I'm hoping that on our Facebook page, Ascended Masters At Work, that you'll post a question that you would like to learn about. But I digress, back to sharing some information with you about business and overcoming our fears. "No one limits your growth but you.", says Tom Hopkins. "If you want to earn more, learn more. That means you'll work harder for a while, but that means you work longer for awhile. But you'll be paid for your extra effort with enhanced earnings down the road." One of the biggest challenges we have is overcoming sales fears. The fear and anxiety that surfaces around sales can absolutely paralyze and doom your business. Many entrepreneurs are afraid of sales but instinctually believe that bringing their mission and their message to the world is why they are participating here in Earth School. They push themselves so hard that they become ill, overworked and physically hit bottom, no longer able to run. You know what I mean, run? So many of them are flying hither and yon and speaking everywhere they can get a speaking opportunity and they're getting sick. They're falling down. It's too difficult. Because someone has told them that they need to make a seven figure income. I'm going to give you a secret. You don't have to make a seven figure income. You can make a six figure income very happily, and live very comfortably, while still saving for the future. And there's other ways that you can save for the future to. You don't have to run yourself into the ground making a seven figure income. So don't let people tell you that. Or if you know of people that are making a seven figure income, sit down and have a chat with them and find out how their health is doing today, how overworked are, and how little time they have for their family. There are many people in business who have enough modalities, credentials, Knowledge and experience to paper the walls. But they're searching for the answer to who they are and they have no idea how to blend everything that they know and do into just one business. Do you have that problem? So many entrepreneurs are experiencing that problem. The members of this group usually have searched for years and spent thousands of dollars looking for the answer to one most important question. "With everything I know, how do I say what I do?" Wow that is a challenge. This one question is the platform for the next step in your business success. Without this answer you will feel paralyzed with fear. After all how can you sell what you do without the answer for who you are as a business. It's interesting because two clients recently came to me with one baseline question. "I know so much that I don't know where to begin. Every time someone asks me what I do a wave of fear washes over me and I don't know what to say." One client already spent over $10,000 on her quest with absolutely no results. The other had been working with two coaches, for six months, but she still hadn't found the answer. Both clients were about to give up when we started working together. It took no longer than two hours of one on one work to discover and create each one's business identity. And today they feel a sense of peace and excitement, while stepping forward confidently into positioning their business and interacting with potential clients. These and many other clients say that now, when potential clients ask them what they do, it's easy to explain their business identity succinctly and confidently while putting their new relationship development into practice. What's important about the point I'm making here is that without intuition I wouldn't have been able to support these clients to reach the answer that they were looking for. It's all about drawing it out of them when it comes to this kind of coaching and intuition is what sincerely makes a difference. This brings me to our guest for today. A lot of what we do in business is intuition so I thought I'd invite her on to talk us. But I'll tell you one thing, she really loves talking about business and intuitive leadership. And we're going to expanded it a bit today and talk about how to have a positive conversation. You might need to change your mind set first. I talk a lot about that in my Selling Through Your Heart book. The whole first section is all about how to change your mindset, so I know she's really going to chime in on this. She has a consulting business on intuitive leadership, intuitive business and she's an accelerator coach, speaker, and best selling author. Her name is Terry Wildemann and she works with socially conscious CEOs, small business owners, and leaders to take their business to the next level with speed ease and flow. Don't you love that? Speed, ease and flow. I really like the way that sounds. She's been in business for about forty years and had all kinds of experience with leadership and that includes owning a manufacturing company, an image consulting company, and a leadership and holistic education center. She has taught at universities, community college and her clients absolutely love her. They are entrepreneurs, bankers, bankers government agencies and even the chamber of commerce and, believe it or not the US military, which I'm sure needs to know how to have positive conversations. Let's welcome Terry Wildemann to the show. Welcome Terry, Thank you Shirlene. It's nice to be here. Well it's fun to have you and your angels are always surrounding you so I really really love having you on the show. It's fabulous. Thank you. Yes, they are always with me. My wonderful angels are constantly with me. Yes, and that's what makes life worth living. Let me tell you. Alright, so I want to talk to you about, why do we have to be intuitive about leadership? I love that question. Well, leaders are who are intuitive. They are able to bring out the best in themselves and in their people. Folks who look at themselves as being a leader often manage and managers tend to work from a very practical and logical perspective. It's more about the rules of the road, what to do, what not to do. It's more of a left brain type focus. Rise to leadership is the emotional side of the house. And when you add intuition to leadership, and all of us have intuition, even the folks who say to me, "Oh, I'm not intuitive." I'll always find some place where they've been intuitive. We're born with our tuition. And to be able to add the insights that come through our intuition, and it's different for everyone. Add that to how we lead. It adds an extra layer of credibility to our leadership. And it gives us insights to really be the best that we can be in terms of communication, in terms of listening, and in terms of being heard. Looking at an intuitive perspective, as a leader, are you saying that they have to be able to read people's minds to know what to say? (Laughter) I knew you'd like that. You know, one of the things about being a really good leader is understanding how people communicate. For example, it's about reading their body language. Listening to their tune of voice. Those are the two biggies. Once you do that you listen to their words and those three things give you lots of insight on how to speak that person's language. It's not about being psychic, so to speak. Not everybody has to be psychic. But our intuitive gifts come in different ways. Some people see images. We call that clairvoyant. Others hear words to guide them. That's clairaudience. Others feel, which is clairsentient. They feel a specific way and others are claircognizant. They just Know. Knowing how you get your information and then being able to read the person who's in front of you from a body language, tone of voice, and words perspective. You integrate the two of them together and it's a powerful combo to understand where the other person is coming from. That's really interesting if you are in front of the person, is how you read their body language. Like, we're doing just audio right now. That's right. When you're talking to somebody I know that we listen to the speed of their tone and what their inflections are. But that one piece, that body language piece, is missing when you're doing an audio. Well, you can actually hear a person's body language in the audio. And you may not be able to see it, but you can feel it, and it actually affects the way we speak and our words. So yes, the body language can actually come through. And you tune in more to the tone of words, the inflection and the energy. Because if you don't see something, the other senses pick it up. That's a really good point because I know people who are deaf, or who are blind, they have a tremendous amount of sense in their other faculty. So you're saying we utilize those as if we were blind. Is that right? Absolutely! And when I used to... this business actually started thirty one years ago when I was an image consultant. I still say, this is common to the ladies specifically. Always wear lipstick when you're going to be on video or on stage because people who are blind have very strong hearing and people who are deaf have very strong eyesight. And those of us who are gifted with both, use both. Therefore we you have the lipstick on your lips are actually brighter and clearer and people can hear you better. Hmm, that's a really good point because I think we kind of read lips anyway whether we're deaf or we're not. Yah exactly, exactly. We do. Wearing lipstick brings the lips in focus. It just makes it easier for the eyes to tune in to what the person is saying. I'm always telling my celebrity guest experts that I trained to make sure they have more, more, more lipstick. Oh good, so we're on the same wave length on that one. Exactly! Exactly. (Laughter) That's brilliant. It's never enough. Oh, that is brilliant. So why do you think people are afraid to listen to the intuitive hints or the little voice in the back of their mind that tells them what to do, or they say, "No, I'm not doing that." Because I'll tell you little secret. This is how I ended up in San Felipe, in Baja, is because that's what I was told to do. Every time I do what I'm told to do I say, "I don't know why I want to live down there. My whole community is in San Diego and northern California." And here I am in San Felipe. But everything has turned out beautifully, simply because I listened and took that step. A very big one, I might add. Yes. It is a very big one and there are times that those of us including, you know, including myself and I'm sure you've been here, where the voices are so loud that we're just too scared to take that step. And it is about trust. It really is about trust. You know when I wrote my last book, The Enchanted boardroom, there's a segment in there about angels and business. And I knew it had to go into the book. I knew intuitively it had to go into the book. I was feeling it and knowing it. But the fear was so intense for me. I was on my knees in my daughter's home in San Diego actually, crying my eyes out because I was so scared. I'm a business woman. I'm a practical person. I'm gonna have tomatoes thrown at me. (Laughter) And I have a fun story about the tomatoes. And this is what I was thinking. I'm going to be writing this and people are going to think I'm a lunatic. But I've been working with the angels, oh my gosh, for decades. My angels have really been very very clear for me. It was just the fear of being judged. It was the fear of not being taken seriously. It's the fear of hearing people's voices in my ear say, "Oh this is just such a bunch of bunk. None of this is true and I've heard this and again it's about, you know we as women, we work hard for our credibility. And it's a matter of fighting for our credibility. Darn it. I am a practical woman. I am grounded with my two feet on the ground, just like you are Shirlene, just like you. And when I don't listen to my intuition it comes back on me. I want to talk about that when we come back. Would you mind? And I want to hear about the tomatoes too. (Laughter) Okay. we'll be right back with you. Give us just a minute and then we're going to find out about Terry and her tomatoes. Hi, this is your coach Shirlene Reeves, and I'm kind of wondering, are you tired of being your wheels and networking groups? I mean I know you love them. But how much money are you making for the money that you're spending? You want to boost your sales and get out of your own backyard? Perhaps you'd like to generate a larger income and create a massive impact in the world. If you're concerned about market competition, meeting sales quotas, or overcoming the anxiety of building a business that generates an income. Then the knowledge and information in my new book, Selling Through your heart, will help you take your business to the next level so you can all that you desire. In the pages in Selling Through Your Heart, I give you my tips and strategies and sales ideas utilized for twenty eight years. Every one of them has been tried and tested. I give you my million dollar secret for how I built my nationwide company, with twenty three thousand people working under me. Wouldn't you love to know those secrets? Well you can get them all in my new book book, Selling Through Your Heart. This book is full of real life insights, inspirational stories, and easily applied advice. Go to SellingThroughYourHeart.com and order your book today. (Laughter) Okay, here we are. Back again. I promised you you're gonna to hear the tomato story, so Terry let's hear it. Oh, the tomato story. Well the book was published, The Enchanted Boardroom, Evolve Into An Unstoppable Intuitive Leader. I had my book signing here in my, where I live in Newport, Rhode Island. It was that the Middletown Barnes And Noble. And set her all up, and everything was wonderful, and I did not look through the camera lens at the videographer who attended. And when I got all the material back I burst out laughing, because I was standing giving my presentation with my flip chart to my right and up over my left was a big sign that said rotten tomatoes. (Laughter) Oh my gosh. Was that in all the video? It was in the whole video. (Laughter) That's actually a good thing. You know, because the book.You know, the Rotten Tomato Awards is actually very very good thing. But I couldn't believe it when I saw that on the video and I went aha aha. There we go. The angels got back at me. (Laughter) Well, you know what I find Terry is, I'll get this little nagging thing in the back of my mind and if I ignore it or I just say, "I'm not doing that." Then, it gets louder. And then it'll go away for awhile and then it comes back very loud. Then I have to say, "Okay, okay, okay I get it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it." And then it just kind of goes away. It's like they wait to see if I get it done.(Laughter) I have a story around that, very quickly. This was thirty one years ago this happened. We were living in Alexandria, Virginia, We were about to move to Mayport, Florida. We're a military family and my daughter was ten months old. My husband was finishing up school down in Florida. And we were leaving a friend at the Chinese restaurant and I put my daughter in the car. And this was thirty one years ago where the car seat, I had to put it in the front seat because it was a sports car. I had no other place to put it. I put my daughter's car seat in the front seat and she was in nice and tight and everything was fine. And then I didn't put my seatbelt on. And I'm pulling the car out and I hear the words, "Put your seatbelt on." Yah, yah, yah, yah. And I'm pulling out and this is in Alexandria, Virginia and if you think it's busy now. It was really really busy thirty one years ago. It's crazy now. You can only imagine what it was like thirty one years ago when I'm saying it was super super busy. And I pulled out into the traffic and I heard, "Put your seatbelt on." And I'm like yah yah yah."PUT ON YOUR SEATBELT!" And I put my seatbelt on and I'm like, "Okay, okay, got it." And I put my seatbelt on and not three minutes later I was at a light and the light turned green and I went forward. Next thing I know I'm in the middle of the intersection. It was a six lane intersection. I had been hit by a drunk driver. So that's the thing about trust isn't it Terry? It sure is about trust. That's when I realized how loud the words were. I think it was probably the first time. My angels always talk to me especially when I was a law enforcement and, you know. I always followed my intuition. But it was the first time I heard words like that, that were so loud and intense. The car didn't have airbags. So if I did it, I mean that was thirty one years ago. If I did not have my seatbelt on. My banged up face would have been a lot worse. But not having bags probably saved my daughter's life even though she had contusions from the straps. She was fine but still, it's like, oh goodness. Our intuition is very very strong if we listen to it and it is a muscle. I will say this. Intuition is a muscle that needs to be practiced. For me it started with the audio. I mean I was always clairsentient, but then the audio piece came in. My very first book in nineteen ninety eight on telephone skills was called 1-800 Courtesy, Connecting With The Winning Telephone Image. That book literally was downloaded with the angels. I was studying to be a reiki master at the time. It was nineteen ninety six. The book contract landed in my lap in nineteen ninety seven and I was studying to be a reiki master with twelve other professional women. I was sent telling them how frustrated and scared I was to write this first book. One of them said, "Why don't you just ask for writing angel, a writing guide." And I went ah, da. And on the way home I asked for a writing guide and Audra showed up. I would meet with her every morning at two, three o'clock in the morning. Put my hands on the keyboard, bada-bing bada-boom out came this book. It's the same way, the way mine came out too. Exactly the same way and they wouldn't let me sleep. (Laughter) I was like, "Oh my god I'm getting woken up at two, three o'clock in the morning. Really." I thought it was interesting what you brought up about your first book and I'd love to know, how does the intuitive blend in with having a positive conversation? Well when you're interacting with someone, like you and I are. The intuitive is about what I call third level listening. It's about when you sit down and you have the conversation does the phone ring at a specific point in time. Does the computer go off at a specific point in time. What is happening? Often times I'll look out and I'll see a specific kind of bird, which has a specific meaning, and I take that and integrated into the conversation. Or I'll be walking on my phone. I'm not walking on phone. (Laughter) Having a conversation with my headset in. I'm walking around the block and I'll see something and it triggers intuitively the next question. So it puts me into a position as a quote where I can ask open ended questions and be guided by what is going on around me by the words that I hear and how I feel. Somebody may say something and all of a sudden my gut is like, oh no no no no no no. So I will put out a question, in an open ended format, that I get some feedback on from the person I'm interacting with. I can tell whether I'm supposed to continue along in that vein based on how my body feels. Is that gut thing, is still there, has it lessened, is it getting better? sometimes I get a pain somewhere. Pain in my shoulder and what I find is because I tend to be empathic I'll often pick up the pain in the person I'm interacting with and they could be three thousand miles away. So that's all part of being intuitive is in using your body and using what is outside of you. And that's third level listening so you're integrating both, your inner world with your outer world. Wow, Terry you are an absolutely amazing woman. I love chatting with you and I'd love to have you back on the show. Isn't it amazing how fast this goes? (Laughter) It sure does. Do you have any parting thoughts that you would like to share with our listeners? Always listen to your heart. Always listen to your heart. If your heart keeps saying to do something, take the leap, trust it, do it. Awesome. That's absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for being with me today Terry. I just absolutely love being in your company. And likewise. We have a lot of fun, every time we're together. Yes we do. So thank you everybody for joining us today. I really really appreciate it and Terry I want you to tell them how they can reach out to you or do you have a little gift for them? I do. They can reach me at www.IntuitiveLeadership.com and they can download a tool that I use to help folks reduce their stress levels. They can go to QuickShiftZone.com. That sounds like a whole different show. It is. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, that's www.IntuitiveLeadership.com and there you can connect with Terry Wildemann and she will help you get on track intuitively as a leader. See you next week. Bye Bye. Have a wonderful week. (Clap) That's it. That was fun. Thank you for joining us on Ascended Masters At Work radio. We hope you gained insights that will change the way you do business, generate a consistent income, and provide a new enlightened path toward financial freedom and designing the lifestyle of your dreams. And if you simply can't wait to purchase Shirlene's book Selling Through Your Heart, Empowering You To Build Relationships For Financial Freedom at SellingThroughYourHeart.com. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

NOTE: Ahead of this week's premium episode, we are unlocking our first 2-part gaming episode, "The Pizza In The Gate." It's time to play the game. Time to play the game. [Laughter] It's all about the game, and how you play it. All about control, and if you can take it. All about your debt, and if you can pay it. It's all about pain, and who's gonna make it.

Elizabeth Harris visits Michael Salmon's studio in Kooyong, Melbourne, and learns from the children's author, illustrator, and entertainer of school children, what 50 years in the arts has taught him about -  Learning to trust your instincts about what early readers find funny. The importance of branching out and diversifying if you want to thrive as an author and illustrator in the long term. How your personality and people skills (or lack thereof) can influence your success in the arts. The pleasure of giving back to the community when you've attained a measure of professional success. How did a beloved children's book make it to the centre page of a newspaper, and its main character become 600 kilos of bronze outside a public library in the nation's capital? What's the connection between Michael, Healthy Harold (the Life Education giraffe that visits schools), and the Alannah and Madeline Foundation? Follow Michael as he travels around Australia visiting Indigenous schools and schools with students of diverse ethnicities, backgrounds, and levels of English fluency. Find out more about Michael Salmon's work at MichaelSalmon.com.au. Notes:Robyn Payne is an award-winning multi-instrumentalist, composer, producer and audio engineer of 25 years’ experience in the album, film, TV and advertising industries. She composed the music for the theme song 'Victoria Dances', which is featured in host Elizabeth Harris' children's book, Chantelle's Wish, available for sale on Elizabeth's website at ElizabethHarris.net.au. The lyrics for 'Victoria Dances' were written by Elizabeth Harris. FULL TRANSCRIPT  Elizabeth:        Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris, the global show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. Today I’m delighted to introduce the highly creative and entertaining children’s author and illustrator, Michael Salmon. Michael Salmon has been involved in graphics, children’s literature, TV and theatre since 1967. He started his career with surfing cartoons, and exhibitions of his psychedelic art, and then joined the famous marionette troupe – The Tintookies – as a trainee set designer stage manager in 1968 (the Elizabethan Theatre Trust, Sydney). Since then his work has been solely for young people, both here in Australia and overseas. His many credits include his Alexander Bunyip Show (ABC TV 1978-1988), pantomimes, fabric and merchandise design, toy and board game invention, writing and illustrating of 176 picture story books – which Michael I’m absolutely flabbergasted and astonished and in wonderment at, and everybody’s laughing at that, or maybe he’s laughing at me, I don’t know. (Laughter) I’ll say it again – 176 picture story books for young readers. Several million copies of his titles have been sold worldwide. Michael has been visiting Australian primary schools for over 40 years. His hour-long sessions are interesting, fun, humorous and entertaining, with the focus on students developing their own creativity, which is just fantastic. Suitable for all years, many of these school visits can be seen on Michael’s website, which I will ask you to repeat later. Michael:          Okay. Elizabeth:        Several trips have been up to the Gulf of Carpentaria Savannah Schools and to the remote Aboriginal community Schools on Cape York Peninsula, as a guest of EDU. EDU – what is that? Michael:          Education Department, Queensland. Elizabeth:        The Australian Government honoured his work in 2004 by printing a 32nd Centenary, special edition of his first book The Monster that ate Canberra – I like that - as a Commonwealth publication … for both residents and visitors to our Capital. Every Federal Politician received a copy. Michael:          Even if they didn’t want it, they got one. (Laughter) Elizabeth: Michael was also the designer of ‘Buddy Bear’ for the Alannah and Madeline Foundation (Port Arthur 1996). The Foundation financially supports Children/Families who are victims of violence/violent crime; they are currently running an anti-bullying campaign in Australian Schools. In 2010 the ACT Government further recognized his work by commissioning a bronze statue of his first book character ‘Alexander Bunyip’. Unveiled in April 2011, it stands next to the new – and I’ll get you to say this, Michael … Michael:          GUN-GAH-LIN. Elizabeth:        Gungahlin Library in our Federal Capital. Thank you for saying that. Michael has presented ‘Bunyip-themed history sessions’ for audiences of School Children at the National Library of Australia since 2011. School touring and book titles continue, which I’m blown away by, because you’ve written and illustrated 176 books! Michael:          Some of those were activity books, to be fair, but they were necessitated – writing, the requirements of children, and illustrations, so they were all lumped in together, basically. Elizabeth:        So Michael Salmon, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Michael: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure, and thank you for visiting my studio here in downtown Kooyong, Melbourne. Elizabeth:        We are delighted to be here – Serena Low and I, everybody – Serena being my wonderful tech support. Michael, we have been Facebook friends for some time now, which is a wonderful way to keep in contact with people. But do you think social media has affected children adversely, and stopped them from reading and enjoying children’s literature? Michael:          Do you know, in order to answer some of the questions you asked, I probably pondered this one the most. It’s strange times. I’m 67 years old now. If I go back to when I was a teenager … Elizabeth:        Looking very dapper, I may say. Michael:          Yes, thank you, thank you. (Laughter) It’s amazing what no exercise will do. (Laughter) Things have changed so much. If you go back to the fifties and sixties – which both you ladies will have to look at the old films and see reruns of Gidget and all that kind of stuff – however, the main communication of young people several, several decades ago, socially, would have been the telephone. Invariably, houses only had one line that mums and dads would need. But the girls mostly – and perhaps the boys too – would be on the line talking to their friends and all this kind of stuff. And that was the only direction of communication. Perhaps letters and whatever, but certainly the telephone was the main thing. Now how things have changed these days. Having 12 grandchildren ranging from – what are they now, 2 to 24 – I’ve seen a whole gamut, and I see daily just how much social media – the iPads, tablets and things – are taking up their time and the manners in which they take up their time. Elizabeth:        What a wonderful family to have! Michael:          Well, it’s certainly a bit like a zoo (laughter) – I hope they don’t mind me saying that – and I’m the head monkey, but that’s about it. That’s true. But if you think of a child – and one of the main loves in life is visiting schools, and over the many years in Australia I’ve visited many, many schools – and just see what the teachers are up against these days. And often the teachers are – it’s well-known – surrogate parents on many occasions. Often it’s left to teachers, whether it be librarians or very kind teachers … Elizabeth:        Challenging job. Michael:          … To instill in the children a love of literature and how important reading is. But I think of going back to my youth and my toy soldier collection and making and making balsa wood castles and Ormond keeps and whatever it may be, playing in my room with this fantasy world I had grown up in. Elizabeth:        What an imagination! Michael:          Well, my father read to me – when it first came out, back in the fifties, and I was quite young, but – The Hobbit, C.S. Lewis and the Narnian … – beautiful. I was brought up in those kind of – and he also read most of Dickens to me, as well as Kipling. Quite incredible stuff. So my father was a major player in my love of literature. And I’m not sure that it happens hugely these days, but I grew up in a world of imagination. And it wasn’t any great surprise to my parents that I entered the world I’m in, which is the fantasy world of children, because I never got out of it, basically. 67 years we’re looking at at the moment. I would say mental age is about 8 or 9. (Laughter) Elizabeth:        But you make very good coffee for a 9-year-old, Michael. Michael:          But it did eventuate that sitting in my studio in the early hours of the morning, if I start laughing at a concept or whatever, I know full well through the passage of time that preppies or Grade Ones or Twos or kinders will start laughing at it too. So you get to trust your judgement after a while in the arts. You get to know where your strengths are. But going back to your original question, I have a couple of grandchildren who are absolute whizzes on their tablets. They’ve gone through the Minecraft thing; they’ve gone this, they’ve gone that. Almost an obsessive kind of stuff there. Elizabeth:        It’s an addiction, I think. Michael:          Sometimes, you must take time away from the use of imagination. Because let’s face it, in using our imagination, our creativity – and creativity can be cooking a magnificent meal, it can be keeping a well-balanced house. There’s all kinds of creativity, or it could be the artist creativity, but that’s such an important thing, of finding who we are. Elizabeth:        Yes. Michael:          And to have children taken away to a certain extent Magic Land which is absolutely fine until they become obsessive or addictive, as some of these things are, there’s a great danger that children are – shall we say – not able to evaluate or to progress their natural talents etcetera coming through, especially in the arts. Elizabeth:        I totally agree with you. Michael, you’ve written and illustrated so many books. As I’ve mentioned a couple of times, 176. How do you decide what to write about? Michael:          Well, it’s probably – I’ve always written from a cover idea. There’s a book of mine going way back. It’s one of my old favourites, a very simple one, which is called The Pirate Who Wouldn’t Wash. And when I talk to children and they say where do you get your ideas from, I say sometimes you get two ideas that are unrelated and you put them together, and because hopefully my books are rather funny and I was brought up in the fifties on things like The Fabulous Goon Show, Peter Sellers, and Spike Milligan. I loved Monty Python which was a direct sort of baby from The Goon Show. So my love of comedy has always been UK-based. And so that strange juxtaposition of whatever, so I thought, okay, a pirate, and perhaps a person who doesn’t like to wash. And you put them together and you have the pirate who wouldn’t wash. And then you simply – it’s easy if you have a vivid imagination – you list a whole lot of encounters or what could happen to a pirate who wouldn’t wash. Elizabeth:        Could we talk about that? I’d love to talk about that. Michael:          A monster, and then someone who doesn’t like vegetables. Which was one of my stepsons, William, and he was ‘Grunt the Monster’, which was one of my early characters. Refused to eat his vegetables. His teachers went to great lengths to find out how he could eat them, disguise them in milkshakes or whatever it may be. So it was William I was writing about, one of my younger stepsons at that stage. And at university when he went through Architectural course, he was called Grunt, because they knew full well the book was based on him. So it’s good sometimes to disguise – but nonetheless feature things you see around you. Elizabeth:        How did he cope with it? Michael:          He loved it, he loved it, he loved it. Elizabeth:        He got attention? Michael:          He got attention, all that kind of stuff, and he had one of his best mates who let everyone know that he was called ‘Grunt’ – that was sort of his name. But at some stage, I think he uses that – he lectures in Architecture around the country these days. He’s gone and done very well, dear William, and he will sometimes use that as a joke. Elizabeth:        Yes. Icebreaker. Michael:          Icebreaker, exactly. Elizabeth:        Was there a pivotal person who influenced your career? And if so, can you tell us how they inspired you? Michael:          Probably apart from the people I’ve mentioned previously, the Tolkiens and the Hobbits and the Lord of the Rings and the C.S. Lewises and that sort of thing, I’ve always loved the classic British thing like Arthur Ransome’s Swallows and Amazons. These are very famous books that everyone read at one stage. Back in those early fifties, my father was at Cambridge University so we were hoisted out of New Zealand; we went to live in the UK, and it was such a great time for a child to be in the UK. It’s still suffering war damage from Second World War, and London still roped off sections of it - the Doodlebugs, the flying bombs that the Germans sent over to hit London. So it was a rather strange place, but the television was brilliant. I was a Enid Blyton fan, a foundation member of the Secret Seven Club. Elizabeth:        Were you really. Michael:          Even though based in Cambridge, we looked forward to every month of the Enid Blyton magazines, so I grew up on The Faraway Tree and the Secret Seven and the Famous Five. I had my badges, I had all the merchandise. But also on the television in those days was a show we never got to hear in Australia – Muffin the Mule. There was also Sooty the Sweep, Bill and Ben the Flowerpot Men. Andy Pandy was another one. Most of those were for kindies and little bubs. Basil Brush was a little bit later on. And British television was always superb, especially for children. Blue Peter and some of those famous shows was a little bit later on. I mention this because I had ten years of my own show on ABC which you’ll learn later on, and used puppets and things which I’d seen being used on British television. Elizabeth:        Can you tell us about that show please? Michael:          The show itself … When Alexander first became a character, it was a Michael 'Smartypants book', a little book I had published in 1972. This is The Monster That Ate Canberra. And this basically the genesis of the television show. I thought I would do a – I wasn’t a university student but it was like a smartypants university student publication, because the bunyip himself was not the Kangaroo – was in fact an oversized pink bunyip, more like a Chinese dragon. However, the monster was the public service, and so it was like a joke about the public service. Because back in those seventies and late sixties, large departments were being taken from Melbourne and Sydney and relocated in Canberra, Melbourne Commonwealth finance and other things, so Canberra was being flooded with the public service. And that was why Canberra was being set up, but anyway, as a youngster back in 1972 when I first wrote that book, I envisaged this large King Kong kind of character over Civic, which was the main principal shopping centre, the oldest shopping centre, going on Northbourne Avenue as you come in from Sydney. There’s this large monster devouring things, but this monster has a problem: he is short-sighted. Anyway, he saw the buildings – the famous, iconic buildings of Canberra as objects of food. So put them into – like the Academy of Science, a gigantic apple pie; the National Library, which was recently built, at that stage and still looks like a gigantic birthday cake; and I had the Carillon looking like a Paddle Pop or something like that, which are all to do with objects of food. And the bunyip devoured them. And the Prime Minister – the original Prime Minister back then was (William) “Billy” McMahon, and when he chucked, we had then changed to Gough Whitlam. So Prime Minsters changed within the reprints of this book. The best thing about this … way way back when Gough Whitlam became our Prime Minister, one of the first things he did was institute an office that had never been there before, called the Department of Women. It was there specially to consider and to aid passage of women in Australia into jobs and a whole range of things that had never been heard before in a male-dominated kind of world. Elizabeth:        I’ve always been a fan of Gough, so I must say … (Laughter) Michael:          Well, Gough appointed a single mum called Elizabeth Reid – Liz Reid – and she was a very famous lady and she really championed the cause of women, you know, equal rights, and these ridiculous things that should have been fixed a long time but hadn’t. So Liz Reid was pictured in the centre page of the Woman’s Weekly, soon after Gough – this was one of his first appointments, Liz Reid. And there was Liz with her little bub – so she was a brand new single mum. Elizabeth:        Oh wow. Which in those days would have been scandalous, wouldn’t it. Michael:          Oh yes, but Gough was famous for that. He already went out specially with the arts. Regardless of how he was considered as a Prime Minister, he was certainly a great patron of the arts, Gough Whitlam. Elizabeth:        As I said, I’m a fan. Michael:          In this picture, centre pages of Woman’s Weekly, double spread, was little bubba. And in little bubba’s hands, supported by his mother, was a copy of The Monster That Ate Canberra. Elizabeth:        Wow! How did you feel? Michael:          I thought, “Fantastic!” I got a call within a week from one of the biggest educational publishers in the world, called McGraw-Hill, asking “Can you tell us a little bit about this? And I was described as this is probably not how I would think, and I said “No, but thank you very much for calling.” So the most unusual thing sort of kicked up, and we were reprinting this book again and again for Canberra, because Canberra was laughing its head off. Elizabeth:        Good on you Ms Reid – and baby. Michael:          So we had a theatrical presentation, pantomimes based on it with the local Canberra youth theatre. ABC then serialized it on radio, and then came to me – this was about 1977 or so – saying, “Would you consider having Alexander Bunyip on television?” Elizabeth:        Wow. Michael:          And I said “Yes please, thank you very much.” And it was through a mate of mine, quite a well-known scriptwriter for Australian films called John Stevens, and also director of plays and whatever around Australia, and he was one of the directors of the young people’s programs in ABC, who were based at that stage in Sydney. Anyway, Alexander got on television through this rather, uh, strange path he led, entertaining the people of Canberra. Elizabeth:        Can I ask you with that, and throughout your life, you have enjoyed such great success, and certainly rightly so. Have you found that there’s been what has been seen as insignificant moments, turn into huge, huge achievements for you? Michael:          Well, (I) try to step away from cliché but sometimes it’s hard to, when I say you make your own luck. But the fact that that for example, one of my main – I love it – the statue of Alexander Bunyip, 600 kilograms of bronze outside the library. Elizabeth:        In that place I can’t pronounce. Michael:          Gungahlin, that’s right, Gungahlin. Elizabeth:        I’ll practise it. Michael:          I’ll tell you how that happened. Sometimes on Google if you’re an artistic person and you’re an author or illustrator, if you just put your name in and see what’s the latest thing, are there any new entries. Sometimes schools put in things in comments or whatever. Sometimes odd things about your life come up – business life, work life. And there was a situation that occurred, when Gungahlin Community Council had discussed whether – because John Stanhope, who was the chief minister of the ACT at that stage was putting up statues left right and centre, because he wanted a lot of edifices in Canberra to entertain people. Elizabeth:        He was a visual. Michael:          Yeah, visual person. And someone said, “Why don’t we have Alexander Bunyip?” and there was general laughter. But that was supported in the Council vote of Hansard, you know, the documented notes taken in that particular Council session, and I saw this online. And so I merely wrote to this person, sent them one of the more recent copies of The Monster That Ate Canberra, and said “That sounds great. Let me know if I can help.” Elizabeth:        Absolutely! Michael:          Gosh, one thing after another happened, and the head of the Council Alan Kirlin, with John Stanhope, got it organized, and within a year there was a brand new statue being launched by John Stanhope, one of the last things he did before he resigned. He’d done some magnificent work in Canberra. So new ministers were appointed etcetera, so John – the statue was launched, and I made a speech which was dedicated to my mum, who had died the year before. She was a Canberra girl, and I thought that would be nice to dedicate, at least mention her. I’m sure if she were around - in ethereal style - she wouldn’t miss out on that one, I can assure you. Elizabeth:        I’m sure. Michael:          But when the statue was dedicated – the statue stands there – Elizabeth:        Can we go back, because I would like to talk about that speech about your mum. Can we talk about that? Michael:          Yes. Well, my mother Judy, as I said who passed on in 2010 – the statue was put up in 2011 – was a very … went bush Port Douglas many years ago, before Christopher Skase was up there. (Laughter) So I used to go up there and visit her. A hurricane holiday house, which is simply a house in Port Douglas without any windows. It was up in the hills towards the Mosman River valley. Elizabeth:        For those who don’t know Christoper Skase, can you please touch on him briefly. Michael:          Christopher Skase was one of our major financial entrepreneurs who died over in a Spanish location owing millions of dollars to many people. He was like a younger brother of Alan Bond. That’s where Christopher Skase fitted in. I don’t think New York or Spain ever really sort of – Elizabeth:        Recovered. Michael:          Recovered from the Australian paparazzi to see whether Skase was in fact dying or whether he was in a wheelchair with breathing apparatus, wheeled out by his ever-loving wife Pixie, who is back safely in the country now. But that’s by the by. (Laughter) Michael:          My mother was a fairly gregarious character. Elizabeth:        Bit like yourself. Michael:          (Laughter) Pushy. Elizabeth:        No, no, no. Delightful, and entertaining. Michael:          Judy was one of the younger daughters of her father, my grandfather, Canon W. Edwards – Bill Edwards. He was a young Anglican curate who’d been badly gassed on the fields of Flanders and the Somme in the First World War. Elizabeth:        Oh dear. Michael:          But he was an educationalist, as well as a very strong Anglican within the church. So he was sent on his return out to Grammar School looking after that in Cooma. When Canberra was designated as the place to have our new capital, the Anglican Church from Sydney said, “Please harness up one of the buggies, and take six of your seniors and go look at four different venues in Canberra that we are looking at to have a brand new school.” Elizabeth:        Wow. Michael:          And they chose the most beautiful place, in a road called Mugga Way just at the bottom of Red Hill, which is Canberra Boys’ Grammar. He was their founding Headmaster. Elizabeth:        Was he! Michael:          But the fact was that they settled on that because they pitched their tents under the gum trees. They woke up with the sound of intense kookaburra noise, and thought this was perfect for a grammar school, or any other school for that matter. Elizabeth:        Oh, beautiful. Michael:          They were all talking and whatever it was. Elizabeth:        Bit like sounding the bell, you know. Michael:          (Laughter) So going back to those days, that was the start of Canberra and my family going back there to the thirties of last century. However, back in those days in the Second World War, my father had graduated from school in New Zealand, and was sent across as one of those New Zealand young soldiers to become an officer at Duntroon, the training college. The Defence Academy they call it now, but good old Duntroon. So when he graduated, it was the end of World War Two, and he was sent up to war crimes trials in Japan, as one of his first things the Aus-New Zealand ANZAC forces when they went up there to look after things for a while. But my mother was quite a brilliant lady, and she would always be the one painting and decorating and doing all this kind of stuff. Always a dynamic kind of person. And apart from loving her very much as a mum, she instilled in me this gregarious, rather exhibitionist kind of thing. Elizabeth:        (Laughter) Thank you Judy. It’s Judy, isn’t it. Thank you Judy. I know you’re here. Michael:          So Judy was responsible for – in younger, thinner days, long hair, beads, not necessarily hippie stuff but just total exhibitionist kind of stuff. Elizabeth:        Oh I’ve seen photographs of this man, everybody. My goodness, what a heartthrob. Michael:          I looked like I could have been another guitarist in Led Zeppelin or something. Elizabeth:        I’m actually just fanning myself with my paper. (Laughter) Michael:          But anyway, it’s all a bit of fun. Elizabeth:        Did you ever sing? Michael:          No, no, no. I was actually a drummer at one of the schools I attended. Elizabeth:        Were you? I like drummers. Michael:          Yes, but not this kind of drummer. In the pipe bands at Scotch College, Sydney. I was a tenor drummer. Elizabeth:        Okay. Michael:          So they have the big, the double bass drum or whatever and the tenor drums and the drumsticks - I forget the name – like the Poi they have in New Zealand. And the tenor drums – you have to have coordination if you want to play the tenor drums as you march along in your dress: the Black Watch dress. Elizabeth:        Isn’t learning music so important, which reflects in other areas? Michael:          It is, it is. Elizabeth:        Can we talk about that? Michael:          Well, I think that – not being musical but having written lyrics in my pantomimes – and down at a very amateur level worked out what a bunyip would sing about, or go back to an early blues song or doo-wop kind of song when Alexander is stuck in a zoo in the pantomime. So I had great fun. So my musical experience – I was lucky to have some very clever people, including one gentleman who until a few years ago was one of the Heads of Tutors at Canberra School of Music called Jim Cotter. Now Jim Cotter and I – he wrote my first music for me, for the pantomimes I used to do way back in the early days. And then Peter Scriven – he was the head of the Tintookies Marionette Theatre, who were all under the auspices of the Elizabethan Theatre Trust in Sydney at Potts Point. And Peter had engaged him to do – I was doing some sets – it was the first show, our first children’s show at the Opera House – and I did the costumes for Tintookies. It was a revamp of what Peter Scriven had been doing back in the fifties. And Jim had some brand new music, and so my musical experience was purely admiring music and talented people who did that, realizing that it was not my forte. Elizabeth:        Aren’t they clever. Michael:          Nonetheless, by writing lyrics and giving some vague, vague “rock ‘n roll and I like it” -like, you know. Not exactly “Stairway to Heaven”, you know what I’m saying? Elizabeth:        (Laughter) Who was your favourite band at that stage? Michael:          Ahh, I grew up in the Sixties. I got myself a hearing aid the other day. You can hardly see it – one of these new things. But essentially, I’ve had to, because I spent a lot of my younger life surfing in the eastern beaches of Sydney. The promotion of bone growth over the ear – there’s some kind of term for it – and they had to cut away the bone if I were to hear properly. And I thought, I don’t want my ear cut, so I’ll just leave it as it is at 67. But also too, I do attribute some of those early groups to my lack of hearing these days, because I did study for my exams with The Beatles, The Rolling Stones. Pretty much one of my favourite groups of all time was a group that spread, with different members going to different other groups, were The Byrds in America. Dylan songs. “Mr Tambourine”. Elizabeth:        Yes. Was it Eric – Eric somebody? Or did I get the wrong group. Michael:          We’re talking about David Crosby, Gene Clark, Jim McGuinn who changed his name and became Roger, or was it the other way round. But they had the Dylan. They came out with “Mr. Tambourine Man”. Elizabeth:        Yes, I know that song. Michael:          Their next one was ‘Turn, Turn, Turn’. Then they went into more Dylan of, “All I Really Want to Do”. And these are hits of the Sixties. Elizabeth:        You could sing a few bars. Michael:          No I couldn’t. Not even Dylan-style. (Laughter) But I love those songs, mainly because - Elizabeth:        They’re great. Michael:          Jim McGuinn had a 12-string guitar, and it was this jingly-jangly feel to their songs that I loved dearly. But another group which I must tell you, because I met up with them in real life, which is one of my favourite groups, is The Seekers. Elizabeth:        Oh! Miss Judith! Michael:          Now Keith Potger is a good mate of mine. We go for gentlemen’s clubs like Savage Club; he’s a member of Savage, enjoy long lunches, and often with some other guests. Elizabeth:        Athol Guy? Michael:          Yes. And Judith Durham – where you’re sitting there – came and sat down there with her manager a few years ago. Elizabeth:        My goodness! Michael:          She’d seen a presentation – Elizabeth:        She’s beautiful. Michael:          Oh, magnificent. And her voice! Elizabeth:        Angel. Michael:          Judith had seen a production by Garry Ginivan, who is one of the principal Australian children’s entrepreneurs for theatrics, theatres. He’s just finished doing Hazel E.’s Hippopotamus on the Roof kind of stuff, and I’m not sure if he’s doing Leigh Hobbs’ Horrible Harriet. Now that’s going to the Opera House. I’m not sure if Garry Ginivan’s doing that for Leigh. He did for Graeme Base. He did My Grandma Lived in Gooligulch, and also brought packaged stuff like Noddy and Toyland, Enid Blyton and other stuff like The Faraway Tree. So anyway he was presenting Puff the Magic Dragon – and I’m just looking around the room to find a graphic of the poster, because I’d designed Puff the Magic Dragon. Elizabeth:        Did you? Michael:          And they used that for all the promotional material and stuff there, but it was the puppet that I designed. And Judith went along to see – it was at The Athenaum Theatre here in Melbourne, a few years ago now. Elizabeth:        Lovely theatre. Michael:          And she liked the whole idea of the dragon, and she rang me. And so here was this most beautiful angel on the other line … Anyway, she was round a couple of days with her management. She was at that time – this was before The Seekers got back together and did all that magnificent tours they did over the last five or six years, Andre Rieu included. Judith is a honky-tonk girl; she loves the music of spiritual and going across to honky-tonk, like Scott Joplin, the ragtime, and all this sort of stuff. Elizabeth:        Oh, fun! Michael:          And she had written several things that she wanted the sheet music to be illustrated to sell, as part of the Judith Durham empire. And she did the ‘Banana Rag’. So immediately I did the illustration for her. I didn’t take any payment. I said, “Look, Judith, might I be impertinent and ask you to come to one of my clubs and sing – come to dinner?” She was a very strict vegetarian and looked after herself incredibly well after a terrible accident where she had to look after her whole system and she’s done that magnificently. So there she was singing, and this was when The Seekers had just released one of their LP’s, called “Morning Town Ride to Christmas”, which was for children’s songs, and there wasn’t a dry eye in the house of these senior gentlemen at the club I was talking about, one of these good old Melbourne clubs, when she sang “The Carnival’s Over”. Elizabeth:        Oh yes. Michael:          Absolutely superb, so that was more than enough payment for doing some artwork. But since then, I continued … and met the desperate Keith Potger. Elizabeth:        Weren’t you lucky. Weren’t you lucky. Weren’t you lucky to have that gorgeous woman. Michael:          I was lucky. I was lucky. But I had to tell you, Judith - they had an article on her website, and she’s on Facebook as well - had at that time recorded with The Lord Mayor’s Orchestra here in Melbourne. It was called “The Australian Cities Suite”, and she had written a song for every major city in Australia. And I remember she and I were trying to do a book together, a book based on a song that her husband – who passed on through, oh gosh, what was it – the wasting disease, muscular disease … Elizabeth:        MS? Muscular Dystrophy? Michael:          Muscular Dystrophy. I’m sure that must be it. He put in a song called “Billy the Bug and Sylvia Slug”, and so we put that into a book. And I took Judith along to see some of the heads of various publishing firms in Sydney as well as the head of ABC merchandising in their ivory tower down in Haymarket area. Beautiful beautiful premises they have there, ABC Studios. And so Judith was much heralded in both places when I took her as my guest to introduce this book to her. The book didn’t work unfortunately, but she did start singing in the car as we’d arrived early in the carpark of the ABC citadel in Haymarket. She started singing. And we were all sitting there. And she started singing songs again from The Seekers. Elizabeth:        I don’t think I’m ever going to stand up again. Michael:          So here we are in Kooyong, and there’s the beautiful strains of Judith Durham singing songs, and I thought, “It doesn’t get much better than this.” Elizabeth:        Oh wow. Michael:          I don’t think Deborah Harry could have done the same. Elizabeth:        Do you think Judith Durham would speak with me on this podcast? Michael:          Judith is a very accommodating person, and I’m sure that if you ask through her management, Graham her manager would – I’m sure - she would look at that favourably. Elizabeth:        Would I have to wear a ball gown? I have a couple. To meet the Queen. Michael:          Meet the Queen. (Laughter) But anyway, I suppose too, in my business – and Australia is not a huge place really, when it comes to who knows what and we talked before about the degrees of separation. Elizabeth:        Absolutely. Michael:          And so, a lot of my stuff has been … involved with, because of my work, a lot of singers and whatever via The Hat Books. I remember Russell Morris, not in this place but a previous place. Elizabeth:        “The Real Thing”? Michael:          “The Real Thing” Russell Morris. Brilliant, brilliant, and had the two LP’s as well. Elizabeth:        And Molly, Molly is attached to that – he produced it, didn’t he. Michael:          Yeah, but Russell Morris had this concept that he came up with his wife 30 years ago. It was about a toy that was pre-broken and you had to fix it. The whole idea of the toy was that you had to re-glue this broken toy. Elizabeth:        Right. Michael:          It was ceramic, and he was so keen on it, but I just didn’t think it was going to work. He was a man with an incredible imagination – Elizabeth:        Russell Morris? Michael:          Russell Morris. He had this toy concept, but it didn’t work, because I don’t think kids want to sit around re-gluing a toy that has been broken. I don’t know what he was on. Elizabeth:        He was quite resourceful. Michael:          Ah, he is. Look at the way Russell Morris has revived in recent times. And he’ll have to excuse me. I don’t remember, but I’ve certainly listened to his two LP’s – albums as we used to call them, back in the old days – that he did. All bluesy and whatever, and he’s still got a magnificent voice. Elizabeth:        You know, there are so many Australians that are not – what should I say – recognized as they should be, I think. And such talent. Michael:          Ah, yeah. Elizabeth:        And do you think we need to go overseas, like in the old day. I was listening to a program last night, actually, and Brian Cadd was on it. Love Brian Cadd. Beautiful, beautiful music. And he said you know, back in the day you had to go to London. Michael:          Yes, yes. Well, look at Easybeats and stuff like that. Elizabeth:        Do you think people need to go? Michael:          Brian Cadd and The (Bootleg) Family (Band), that’s what he calls his group, they are reappearing at – they are doing an Australian tour this month in February – I saw it on Facebook, actually. Elizabeth:        You know, a friend of mine who’s a pastel artist, highly acclaimed – we were talking about this, and she said in this country, she’s just not recognized and she really needs … She’s working in a boutique! Michael:          It is a problem. You know on Facebook, which is one of the loves of my life, you see a good deal of Australian up-and-coming authors and illustrators, and ones that you dearly wish would … And I do believe that you if you earn it, you deserve a place in the sun – your ten minutes, twelve minutes of fame, all that kind of stuff. And if you’re smart enough, after your time has been, you then start doing things which reinvent yourself. I’m not talking about Madonna-style, but I’m talking about coming up with new things, being aware of new trends and seeing whether you can adapt your talents. Elizabeth:        Being a survivor. Michael:          Being a survivor, absolutely. Because let’s face it, and I’m very grateful – for example, the schools around Australia – 45 years… Elizabeth:        I’m sure they’re grateful to you too. Michael:          I go into the schools and there are teachers there that say, “Look, the last time I saw you Michael, was when I was in Prep or Grade One, and I loved your books then and I still love them." I’m just so thankful. Elizabeth:        How do you feel, other than gratitude? Michael:          Well, this is one of those major things, of feedback you get. And some of them come up and say “I started drawing because of you drawing”. Elizabeth:        You’re inspirational! Michael:          There are just those things there that I … and also entertaining. Doing a bit of stand-up comedy, giving out very silly prizes like Barbie books to Grade Six boys for good behaviour. I know Preppies will never forget those things. Elizabeth:        Can you talk us through – when you present to the school, how do you do that? Michael:          This year I’ve got a ‘Michael Salmon’s Monster Show’ which is talking about more or less the same thing, but some different pictures to ones I’ve been doing before. Essentially what I realized right at the start is if I do some speed cartooning, right in the very first picture I draw there, and do it so quickly in a great show-off manner, you get the kids hooked.  Elizabeth:        It’s magic; it’s in front of us. Michael:          Because the little ones, they say “Look what he did! Look how fast he drew!” And I always knew that that particular facet, if you did it correctly, the little Preppies in the front – because we do try to get mixed grades, with the Grade Sixes at the back – is that you would have their attention if you kept on. So I sort of talked about the way I invented characters and how it happened. Bobo my dog who is not here today – dear Bobo in the book I wrote called Bobo My Super Dog, where I sort of – he saves the world a bit. Elizabeth:        Of course he would. (Laughter) Michael:          Oh, I don’t know. Let’s just go back to the bit about Australia and the people who are trying to make it, and they are doing their very best and you see their brilliant talent. And it’s very evident on Facebook – it’s one of my major purveyors of talent – the ideas that people come up with and all that sort of stuff. I mean, you’ve got some brilliant people here in Australia. You look at Leigh Hobbs for a start. Now he belongs to the Savage Club as I do, so I catch up with him for lunch on occasions. And there he is with his two-year tenure in his position championing children’s books and children’s literature around Australia. His cartoons are very much like Ronald Searle, the famous British cartoonist, who did the original cartoons that accompanied the original published books and also the film versions of St Trinian’s movies, of schoolgirls and things like that – the naughty schoolgirls. And Ronald Searle was a brilliant, brilliant artist, and he had the kind of nuttiness in his cartooning that Leigh Hobbs had. You look at Leigh Hobbs’ stuff – they are very, very sparse, great placement of colour, they are done in a very slapdash manner. It all works together beautifully – from Horrible Harriet, to Old Tom and whatever. And if you’ve got other people – what’s that book by Aaron Blabey – something or other Pug? (Pig the Pug) I bought some books for my very young grandchildren for Christmas, and I thought, “I haven’t seen these books before.” And here he is winning awards and YABBA (Young Australians Best Book Awards) Awards and all this kind of stuff. And so much talent around. And it’s hard in Australia to make a living as an author, because the royalties and stuff, even if you are one of the top ones, may suffice for a while but aren’t continuing. Elizabeth:        And yet Michael you’ve done that – for 50 years – haven’t you. Michael:          Only because of schools. 45 years in schools and 50 years in the arts. But mainly because I branched out and did things like theatre – the television show. You saw when you first entered the merchandise for 'Alexander Bunyip'. Spotlight stores were behind me for fabrics for a decade, and they finished not a huge many years ago. And that had nothing to do with 'Alexander Bunyip'. But the fact of really, of diversifying. Elizabeth:        Okay. Michael:          And the books for me lay a platform. When Mum or Dad read a book at night to their children, and it happens to be one of yours, and it’s something they like, and they happen to be one of the lead buyers of Spotlight stores and they say “We must do something about this guy”, and they came round and sat where you’re sitting, and they said “We’d like to offer you a deal.” And I thought, “Oh thank you. That’s great!” Elizabeth:        But can I interject? The vital part of that is certainly that there is talent and diversification, but it’s also the ability to connect with people - which you are very skilled at. And the warmth that you have … Michael:          Well, thanks to my mother, because she was a people person. Yes, you’re quite right – it does help to be a people person if you’re an artistic person. Of course sometimes it doesn’t flow. Some of the best children’s authors are not people persons. So you can’t expect to do anything. I learned long ago of creating an impact on your audience – start and hold them if you can from then on, and then you can impart any message you want. And the only message I really impart to the children is about developing their creativity, for them to start working on the things they’re good at, or keep drawing or singing or whatever it may be. Elizabeth:        I really want to segue into something from those comments about your work for the Alannah and Madeline Foundation. That is so, so pivotal. Can we talk about that? Michael:          Yes. Do you know, in general terms, it’s really good if you’ve had success, I’ve found, especially in the arts, to find venues and areas and avenues to give back to society. I hope that doesn’t sound too corny. Elizabeth:        It sounds beautiful. Michael:          Up here, I’ve got some – when I was one of the patrons of “Life Be In It” for the Victorian – Elizabeth:        Oh yes! Michael:          And I designed – not the vans, those large pantechnicon vans that went around and advertised anti-drugs and – Elizabeth:        It was Norm, wasn’t it. Norm. Michael:          Norm was “Life Be In It”. This was the Life Education Centre, the one started up by Ted Knox at King’s Cross Chapel, but they went to a huge thing. Large pantechnicon trailers filled with the latest kind of things, and all round Australia, but particularly in Victoria – because that’s where my expertise was, helping them design big wheels to go on, painted by local mums and dads. And I also do it to do some fundraising. But Life Education had a Harold Giraffe as their logo, and it’s still going gangbusters. So these things would go to schools, and like the dental van they locked you in that, and they would see these incredible digital displays of bodies and drugs and anti-drugs, things like that. Magnificent, magnificent. That was one thing I was involved in. A good mate of mine, a school librarian called Marie Stanley, who’s since not a school teacher anymore – a school librarian – she rang up soon after 1996 when the horrific Port Arthur thing had occurred. She had been seconded – Walter Mikac, whose wife Nanette and two daughters Alannah and Madeline were shot dead – he knew he had to do something. So he went to see the Victorian Premier at that stage, Steve Bracks, and also saw John Howard. And between them he got funding to set up a St Kilda Road office and start the Alannah and Madeline Foundation which is purely there to help the victims of violent crime – the families, the children – provide them with some kind of accommodation or support or clothing, needs, or toiletries – a whole range of stuff there. So they seconded Marie Stanley from Williamstown North Primary School. Because I’d visited her school many times, she rang me up and said, “Look, Michael, I’m doing this, I’m on salary, but I need your help. Could you help me invent a character?” So I came on board with Alannah and Madeline (Foundation) on a purely voluntary basis, which is my pleasure, and we invented a character called Buddy Bear as a very safe little bear and a spokes figure, whereby – and there are behind me as we speak in this interview – there are Buddy Bear chocolates up there. And they did something like five million chocolates with my name and my design on it through Coles stores and Target stores … Elizabeth:        You know Michael, next time we meet I need a camera. (Laughter) Michael:          That’s just 'Buddy Bear' stuff. And 'Buddy Bear' has gone on strongly and it’s now part of the Alannah and Madeline Foundation. But they got involved in a very important … the main focus of anti-bullying. And I was the person – I want to say one thing, because it’s true – I suggested that they should go – violence and all this stuff for families was terrible enough – but if they wanted to go to the bully, they really should get into the heart of the matter. And to me, I said to them once, “Look, please. I’ve seen what we’re doing. We’ve got Buddy Bear as the spokes figure for violence in the home. But we really should be hitting schools and things with something that centers around bullying and have an anti-bullying campaign. And you know, it is one of those things which is said at the right time and the right place. And now we’ve got Princess Mary of Denmark who is the international head of 'Buddy Bear' and they’ve got their own thing over there because of her Australian connection with Tasmania. We have the National Bank who are the sponsors of the 'Buddy Bear' program of the Alannah and Madeline (Foundation), so we have a fully-fledged charity. But the early days of inventing 'Buddy Bear', and a lot of people who gave their time and effort for no cost as I did, and pleasure to get the whole thing going. But it was all through initially Walter Mikac, thinking that with his deceased wife and two little girls, he had to do something. He was a pharmacist by trade and he was a smart man – he is a smart man – and he set the wheels in motion. And so it was a - ‘pleasure’ is not the right word. It was satisfying to be involved with a program that was ultimately going to help children feel better and safe and especially with this bullying thing, of being able to … Elizabeth:        Personally, I love fundraising and I do a lot of it. And actually we have on the agenda this year a fundraiser for another children’s author: Pat Guest. His son Noah, and Noah has Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy, and the family need a wheelchair-accessible vehicle. Michael:          Yes, yes, yes. Elizabeth:        Pat’s a wonderful person. He’s published five books and counting, and has written one about Noah called That’s What Wings Are For. He has actually podcasted with me. So I’m going to put you on the spot now and ask you if you would like to create something – Michael:          Absolutely! Let me know … Elizabeth:        I haven’t even finished my sentence! Michael:          No, no, no, the answer’s yes. The answer’s yes. Elizabeth:        The generosity! Thank you. Michael:          No, no, my pleasure. You talk about the – do you pronounce it ‘Duchenne’? There was a very famous fundraiser with that society up in Cairns several years ago, where various artists and musicians and illustrators were asked to provide – and they said a ukulele – so you had very famous artists and musicians and illustrators creating and painting their own version on this practical ukulele that was sent back to Cairns and auctioned off for charity and raised a whole lot of money. Elizabeth:        You know Pat, I think, would love to meet you. And I know Noah – the whole family are just beautiful people. Michael:          But I’ll have you know, only because of that connection where they contacted me saying “Would you like to …” and I had no knowledge whatever of the disease and the toll it took. Elizabeth:        I’ve nursed a couple of boys with it. Michael:          From my recollection, would it be quite correct to say it’s quite gender-specific? It hits boys more than girls? Elizabeth:        Yes. The two children that I nursed were brothers, and they passed. So we want to focus on the positive side, and this Saturday, actually there’s a trivia night which is sold out – Michael:          Oh good! Good, good. Elizabeth:        And it’s Eighties music which is my thing – I love that – so hopefully I will win, everybody. Don’t bet on me, Michael, but if there was a ticket, I’d invite you. But we’re looking at later in the year and we have some great people. Dave O’Neil wants to do a spot – Michael:          Oh yeah, good, good, good. Elizabeth:        And he podcasted with me. And like yourself, pretty much before I got my sentence out, he said 'yes'. Robyn Payne whom I wrote my song with for my children’s book – she wants to write a song. So we’ve got many … and Robyn Payne was in Hey Hey, It’s Saturday for many years. She was in that band, and Robyn’s incredible – she plays eight instruments. Michael:          Right, right, yes, yes. Elizabeth:        She’s performed at the Grand Final; incredibly talented lady. I just ran into her the other night with Neil, her husband, and Steph who’s a good friend of mine and recently performed with her on stage as well, they’re looking at writing a song for Noah. So it’s taking off. Michael:          One of the best fundraisers I’ve been to is a yearly event – still going – the Alannah and Madeline (Foundation) did. I don’t keep in contact with them directly; it was just a pleasure to work in, but what they did at the Palladium Ballroom – have 'Starry Starry Night'. Now 'Starry Starry Night' would have almost anyone who’s anyone in show business, on television and the media, would be there, from the jockeys at Melbourne Cup who would be singing Village People and whatever. Quite brilliant. And they had a huge host. We’re talking about – and I’m not exaggerating – 50 or so celebrities attended that. Black Night night and it really was a “starry starry night”. I haven’t attended for a long time, but I did my duty and it was a great pleasure to be there and part of it. But that was a brilliant fundraiser, and still continues as a fundraiser for the Alannah and Madeline Foundation. Elizabeth:        Oh, I’m so honoured that you said yes to me before I even finished my sentence. Thank you so much! Talking about stars, I’d like to go to my signature question, and then we’ll say adieu to you. Michael, this is a signature question I ask all my guests: what do you wish for, for the world, and most importantly for yourself? Michael:          Well, as we’re sitting here in early February of 2017, because of all these incredible events that are going on every quarter of the day from the United States there, where the world order seems to be rapidly changing, and oddities occurring there and without going into it too heavily we all know what we’re talking about, I have a hope that the situation in America remedies itself, and that the situations change rapidly, and that America gets back, because as the biggest country in the world for what it is and known as, because we need the stability of America etcetera, so it’s a fairly direct sort of wish that America gets its act together again soon, and maintains something that we can trust in. Because America really is being that main country in the world. Elizabeth:        Do you see a way – does that start one person at a time? Is that how things start to change? Michael:          Gosh, as we’ve evidenced with the Women’s March and a whole range of stuff now that the immigration – oh dear – it just goes on, goes on. And without going into a full-scale discussion of that, my wish is that America gets back together quickly, and maintains and gets someone new in charge. I don’t know how that’s going to happen – impeachment or … but something has to happen, so that the world can feel stable again. And that’s not grandiose, but that’s probably affecting a lot of people in the world. As every new edict or special signatory thing is signed in the White House, the ripples it sends across for instability is quite amazing. We’ve never seen it before, unless you were there during Chamberlain days when Neville Chamberlain was talking to Hitler, and some of those – not grandiose or high-flying stuff, but it does affect especially Aussies who love America dearly, and America loves us. Elizabeth:        But to me your books so beautifully reflect history. Michael:          Some of them do, some of them do. It’s like a Facebook page – I really do love entertaining people and making them laugh. And that’s probably the last part of your question – I really would like every child in the mass audiences I encounter, we’re talking about 500 or so -  I would like to think that every child had an opportunity – not because of anything to do with my talk that may be instrumental , it doesn’t really matter – the children of today can reach their potential, and the energy and the talents they have are recognized. Not squashed, quashed, forgotten, put to one side by society or families, issues, whatever it may be. Elizabeth:        You know, that reminds me of a good friend of mine, Andrew Eggelton. So Andrew Eggelton is an interesting man – he’s a New Zealander actually; he’s a Kiwi – and he believes in the Art of Play. So his wish is that everybody gets to use their God-given talents. Michael:          Ditto, ditto, absolutely. Because you do see the children out there. Just to give you an example: I spoke to close to 12,000 children during a tour that I organized myself – I do have some other agents organizing other states … Elizabeth:        How do you look after your throat? Michael:          Thank goodness I’ve always had a voice that can throw – a loud voice – I was captain of a rugby team in my machismo days. I was in New Zealand, and as a front row forward you don’t usually have a shy, retiring kind of personality. When you go out to tour, and on that tour we toured everything around the Riverina, we did places like West Wyalong, places you normally drive through as you are going up the back roads to Dubbo or some place like that. Then we went to Sydney, the western suburbs schools, and even this morning I had a phone call from one of the agents for a school near Loganlea. The school called and they want a couple of sessions. Most of their students are refugees with English ESL, so English Second Language. I would say English third or fourth language. Elizabeth:        How many children at that school? Michael:          Seven hundred. She said – the agent who rang me – and this is the first one in the tour that’s coming up late July for southeastern Queensland – “The reason no doubt that you’ve been invited to this particular school” which I know well, is because my act is highly visual. You don’t need a lot of language to understand it, because I draw all the cartoons. Or I’m caricaturing children, or getting them to caricature me. It’s almost like – ‘international language’ is not the right phrase – but it’s almost like a human comedy or whatever you call it. Elizabeth:        It’s like smiling. Michael:          It’s like smiling, and the more the merrier. So up there you’ve got the refugee children. You’ve got a lot of – and I really enjoy going to the Tongan or Samoan or Fijian or Maori schools or New Zealand, because I used to play rugby and I played with so many Islanders over the years and I’ve got some good mates there. And especially up there in southern parts of Brisbane, before you hit the Gold Coast, it’s always challenging, and I love to go up there, so it’s great to hear that. And the same thing applies to Indigenous schools up on the Gulf of Carpentaria, they call them, the Gulf Savannah schools up in Cape York, where you go to places like Weipa and stuff like that. And some of the notorious – notorious because of the troubles that have occurred – there’s a couple of places along the Peninsula there – they are trouble spots and have been for many years. Elizabeth:        You know Michael, that just says so much about you, because so many people would not go within cooee of those places, and it reflects your beautiful generosity. So I want to thank you very much for guesting on Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. And I think we need a Part Two. It’s been an absolute delight and thank you so much. Michael:          Thank you very much, and thank you Serena too. I babbled on a bit, but fifty years – fifty years of working in this country – there’s been a lot of water under the bridge. A lot of people, a lot of children, and I’m just very lucky. I consider myself very lucky to be in that position, to have that rapport with kids, and to just get on with them and entertain them and enjoy them. Elizabeth:        I consider those children and us very, very lucky to have met you today. Thank you so much. Michael:          Thank you guys. Thank you. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

In this episode we sit down with Centricity Music General Manager, Steve Ford. 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a:hover{color:#8f8f8f !important;} www.fullcirclemusic.orgFCM007_-_Relationships_with_Steve_FordDuration: 00:50:21You're listening to The Full Circle Music Show. The why of the music biz.Chris: Welcome back to the Full Circle Music Show, it’s Chris Murphy and I'm sitting right beside Seth Mosley. How are you buddy?Seth: I'm good man. It's a busy week, lots of good stuff going on over here at the studio. And I’m excited to take just a few minutes out of our schedule to talk to one of our favorite people in the industry, Mister Steve Ford.Steve has been a guy that I've known for a long time, was one of the people that I met moving to Nashville in the music business. And we've talked to a lot of people on the creative side so far but we haven't yet talked to anybody on the label side. So, you think of the guy that sits in a dark room with a suit in a corner office, that's this guy! Except for not, he actually sits in a what is a pretty awesome office, he's the general manager of a label company called Centricity Music; has been pretty massively successful in the past couple of years and really since they opened. But, he's a really great leader and speaks to what they look for in a good producer, in a good artist, in a good team member at their label.So, if you're wanting to get involved in the music industry, this is a great episode to listened to. I learned a ton and I think you will too.Chris: You know, being a podcast junky, it's nice to meet a fellow podcast enthusiast as well. We had some great conversations in the episode but also talked a lot about our favorite podcasts on and off the mic. He's just a great guy, great to get to know him and I really appreciate Seth you setting this up. Another great interview and I can't wait to listen to it.Seth: And you can check out his company at centricitymusic.com. They have a lot of great artists that I think you'll dig.Audio clip commencesHey podcast listeners, something is coming February 1st 2016. Have you ever thought about a career in song writing or music production? We have created a couple courses with you guys in mind. We've been getting a lot of feedback on people wanting to know more about how to become a song worker; how to become a professional music producer or engineer. These courses were designed to answer some of those questions. Go to fullcirclemusic.org and sign up there for more information.Audio clip endsChris: You were saying earlier before we started rolling that you were a podcast guy.Steve: Oh yeah, big podcast guy.Chris: And, you've heard this podcast before?Steve: Yeah. I've listened to the first three.Chris: Okay. So, can I ask you to go out on a limb and give us a grade so far?Steve: You know what? I'd give them a solid B+. I want them longer. That's my thing; I want to go into the background. I want to hear when you did Brown Banishers which is funny because I've worked a lot with Brown but you didn't get past Amy Grant.Seth: Sure.Steve: I mean, this is the guy who worked with from everybody from Third Day to Mercy Me to Why Heart, he's done everybody like come one there are stories there. I tell people I'm on the corporate side because of Brown Banisher because of how he worked. I was an engineer in LA for ten years and he would come out and mix records with us, it was at a little place called Mama Joes and I would see him on the phone going, “Happy birthday sweetie.” Later knowing that it was Ellie; missed her first walk and all of these other things. And when my daughter was born, I was like, I can't do this. I needed a life and so I started praying and Peter York calls. So it’s because of him so it's fun to hear some his stories. I did a lot of records win Jack Joseph Puig and–Seth: And you were engineering at the time?Steve: Yeah. I was an engineer at LA.Seth: And at the time that was really engineering?Steve: Oh my gosh.Seth: You were cutting tape and…Steve: Yeah! I've cut a lot of two inch tape, quarter inch tape, half inch–Seth: Stuff that I hope to never do.Steve: You don't have to, Jericho does it for you.[Laughter] Seth: I don't know if Jericho has ever cut tape? In school he did.Steve: Now, I feel really old.Chris: Is that kind of like when you're in a biology class and not in any other time of your life will you need to dissect a frog but you just have to do it for the experience of it. Is that what it's become cutting tape?Steve: I don't know if you have to do it even that. It's sort of like this legend of starting a fire with flint, you know? It's sort of like, “Yeah. I used to cut tape.”[Laughter] Seth: I mean there's probably a resurgence. I would imagine knowing the process of what coffee has become and how artists.Steve: Yeah.Seth: I think there's a big thing in maybe it's the millennial generation or whatever it is but I think people are drawn back to slower, older more hands on processes it seems like than just pushing the button or going through the drive through–Steve: And somethings, don't you think, in some things its like just give me the button. Give me the filter on Instagram.Seth: That is true! That's true but then you've got the whole wave of people roasting their own coffee beans now and then they're grinding the with a hand grinder, and then they're putting in a… And, I'm saying this because we have like three artists that we work with; that come in and they bring their whole coffee apparatus.Steve: And they measure how much coffee goes in, weigh it?Chris: Yeah.Steve: My son has one of those has a scale that weighs, how much coffee goes in. Oh yeah just …Chris: Yeah, I thought you were going to say some of the artists that you work with, they actually bring their own barista in the studio because–Steve: I'm sure that will happen.Seth: That’s kind of a prerequisite to be in a band. There has to be at least one barista.Steve: True.Seth: In the band.Steve: There has to be one business guy in every band and one guy who can make great coffee.Seth: And then the guy who can actually play the instruments.Steve: Yeah. Then the artist.[Laughter]Chris: And then the fourth guy on base who just knows how to shape everybody's beards. He's more of a grooming guy.Seth: And sometime there's a drummer.[Laughter] Steve: You don't need a drummer; there are machines for that now.[Laughter] Seth: Yeah. I mean, just take us through a little bit of your journey, you started in L.A.?Steve: I was born and raised in L.A.; read an article when I was 14 years old about this guy named Sir George Martin. And I was like, “What? You can do that for a living?”Seth: Who is George Martin?Steve: He produced this little band called the Beatles, probably never heard of…most 20 year olds haven't heard of them so…Chris: And then isn't true that he went on from there to write The Game of Thrones?Steve: Did he? I'm not a Game of Throne person–Chris: Okay that's R.R. Martin, sorry.Steve: Wrong one. But I mean, you read about these guys and you sort of open a door into a new world that you didn't know existed. And so, I was 18 years old, junior out of high school walked into the recording studios and started from there.Seth: So, you didn't wait to have some sort of a college thing to get internships?Steve: My mom was like Reeds parents which was like, “That’s a nice hobby but let's make sure you have a backup plan, a plan B.” And so, I still went to school, I still went to college did all of that. Don't ask me my grade point average because I was going home at 4 o'clock in the morning, waking up at 8 to crawl into my first class, it was terrible. But yeah, my first job in the recording studio, I was making $500 a month from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock in the morning.Seth: Living in L.A?Steve: Living in L.A.Seth: And that probably paid for a tenth of the rent?Steve: Maybe.Chris: Or, just the gas to get around?Steve: But I loved every second of it. And then from there you sort of work your way up. So, I did that… Like I said earlier my daughter was born and I was like an engineer’s life is a hard life in LA especially. Those were the days when you'd pay $1,500 a day block booking a studio; you booked a studio and you're paying $1,500 if your there six hours or eight there 24 hours. And a lot of them stayed 24 hours, and you just have next, next, next, next.Chris: And you've got to be the first guy there.Steve: First guy there, last guy out, yeah. You're sitting there winding tables at 6 o'clock in the morning going, “I just want to go home.”Chris: When the bug caught you, from that point until the time that you walked into that first studio and got a job, what skills were you harnessing?Steve: None.Chris: Just reading liner notes?Steve: Yeah. Lying in the floor, reading and going, there's one in North Hall and I'd write it down on a piece of paper because I grew up in the San Fernando Valley and start looking for them. Hey man that where Bill [inaudible 8:50] studio is or whatever the studio was and start. There wasn't really a whole lot you can do to prepare for it. It's no like in high school you go, “I wonder what class…”  I was in all the choirs and all the music stuff and that didn't prepare you for it. Probably the greatest skills for a studio engineer especially a starting one is being attentive, being hungry, being prepared and that depends on who you're working with.When you working together with somebody so well, I'm sure you and your team, they know what you want in advance and plugin something in before you even have to ask, that’s just working together. I've told a lot of wannabe engineers who want to go to some of these very expensive schools, don’t do it. Take that money, live on it for two years and go give yourself away for free for two years. You learn more two years in a studio than you will however long you go to one of the expensive ones.Chris: Yeah.Steve: It's just doing it. Just aligning the tape machine which is once again, it's like starting fire with flint again, knowing the lines taped but you learn by doing that.Chris: Absolutely.Steve: You learn by making a lot of mistakes. I recorded a lot of bad drum sounds.[Laughter] It just happened and then you go, “Oh if I do this, its better.” And 10,000 hours man, it takes 10,000 hours.Chris: Again, I think that it's not that schooling is necessarily a bad thing but the way that you learn in life versus the way that you learn in a classroom is different because for the most part, a classroom will deduct points for the stakes and if you’re in the–Steve: That's true. Good point.Chris: Yeah. I heard that -actually going back to our love of podcasts here- I heard Tim Farris on his podcast talking about the fact that he was going to go to, was considering something like Princeton or Harvard or something to go get his MBA. And he thought instead of doing that -or maybe this was advice given to him and he took it- instead of taking that couple hundred thousand dollars worth of whatever I needed to go get my MBA. I'm going to invest that in myself, very similar to what you're saying. And I'm going to use that to live on so that way I can go and I can intern for that company that I would never be able to if the money mattered that much. Because once you get out of school its like, “Oo I've got to go do something with this.” But if you've got the money set aside to go get the MBA anyway, it goes a long way to really feeling free to not have to pay that rent or pay that car payment that you could really dive in.Steve: And most people never use their college education for what they use. I had a meteorologist specialist. She had a degree in meteorology for TV and she was my marketing assistant. And you go, “I want to see what you spent four years doing versus what's your grade point average or what's you major.” I don't care about that stuff.Seth: So to fast forward to today, you are general manager of a very successful record label. When you got to hire somebody to your team, do you even say, “Hey, send in your resume. Where did you go to college?” Or does that not even cross your mind?Steve: I do want to see that. Four years in college gives me the impression that they follow through, they finish. You’ve said it before, finishing is such a hard art in today's world. To have somebody who finished is very valuable. Do I care about your grade point average? No. Do I even care about your major? No. Because if you have the right work ethic and the right heart, I can train you to do other things but I want to see how hard you're willing to work.Seth: So, a college degree still carries some weight but maybe it doesn't carry the weight that people think it does in terms of having the training because you kind of have to relearn it all when you get out into the real world.Steve: Exactly. Most college students that I see haven't learned anything that’s a really good use at a record label. My last five hires at Centricity have all come from internships. Now, I've had a lot of bad interns. I've wanted to fire a couple of interns, that's pretty bad when you want to fire somebody who works for free.Seth: What defines a good intern and what defines a bad intern?Steve: A bad intern sits on Facebook until you give them something to do and then they do exactly just to the letter of the law of what you asked them to do, hand it in to you and then get back on Facebook. A great intern does what you do and says, “Hey and I thought about this. And what about this more?” You give them to go to D and they go to G; then you give them to G and they go to S. I have a girl in my office, I asked her to do one thing and she says “Oh by the way while I was thinking about it I did these other three things that will help you out.” That type of proactivity and thinking ahead is so incredibly valuable. Like having somebody patching in your compressor before you ask for it. They know where you're going so fast that they're working ahead of you. And for all of those out there, that's old school once again patch bays.[Laughter]Seth: We have a small patch bay, we have two patch bays actually so we're probably on the old school end of things.Chris: It looks very cool though. It's looks kind of old science fiction movie.Steve: Spaghetti.[Laughter] Seth: It's like a telephone operator kind of thing. I heard a thing on…man, we keep talking about podcast, we're all just podcasts nerds, dude. I think that’s what we do for a living is listen to podcasts. And I heard one last night, they did a study of millennials; if you had a dream job, pick out of these choices what would be your dream job. Number one was the president; number two was a senator; number three was a successful athlete; number four foreign diplomat; five was a CEO of Apple; and then the last choice was the personal assistant to a famous actor or athlete. And 45% I think picked that one, hands down.Steve: They have no idea what that job looks like.Seth: They don't but it also speaks to they don't want to take the responsibility. Like, when you're that person, when you're the boss, they want to have a boss and maybe you can speak to a little bit to that but I feel like when you were talking about the internships, the ones who go above and beyond are the ones who are willing to take some responsibility and say, “Here's an idea” and just put it out there. How many interns would you have to get, to get that one good one?Steve: Probably 10 to 15.Seth: 10 to 15 to 1?Steve: Yeah, to 1. I think that’s what it is.Chris: Wow.Steve: Yeah, that's what it is. And I heard you, I think we had the conversation, there's such a different work ethic in today's young adults. And part of it is my fault, I'm a parent of a young adult they've been given everything in their whole life, they haven't had to work for anything. You want that iPhone! Here's that iPhone. You want that? Here's that. The art and the craft of working, the labor of getting something is a lost art, I think.Seth: So, would you go back and do those things differently?Steve: For my kids? My kids had to work.[Laughter]Seth: So, you weren't saying from my experience, you weren't–Steve: I’m saying that personally and much more of…[Laughter]What we made our kids do is like when they wanted that $100 American girl doll is you buy half, we’ll buy half. And all of a sudden they're digging out rocks in the backyard at $1 a bucket out of the garden. Because you want to give your kids what the value of work is and that's that doll at the end.In our world, I sat with an intern once and he was irritating everybody in the office. He's that guy who only asks questions because he wanted to tell you how much he knew. An intern needs to be quite and listen because there's a lot of information that flows around… And then they find the person that they can go to and go, what did that mean when he said this? So, what did that mean or… Come to me! I've told everyone in my internship, feel free to come to me and say, what does it mean when you said that? Versus this guy would come to you and tell you everything he knew. So, I was sitting him down one day and going,  “Man, you're irritating everybody. The whole office wants to prove you wrong.”Seth: You literally said that?Steve: I said that to him and later on, “I know I do that. I'm just trying to figure out where I fit and trying to find a job make $100, $120,000 a year and start in the music industry.” And I said, “You're in the wrong industry, man.”Seth: Go into finance!Steve: Go into finance, or go be an architect somewhere I guess or something. It was just about wanting to make as much money as his dad did, now! This generation wants to start where their parents have gotten to right now. I've seen it with artists, I've seen it with interns–Chris: They don't want a drop in their lifestyle that they've become accustomed to.Seth: A luxury once had, becomes a necessity.Steve and Chris: Ooohh.Steve: Very nice.Seth: And I'm very guilty of that. You fly first class once and you feel like a swine by sitting in coach.[Laughter] Steve: I've flown private jets twice in my whole life, in my whole career both times sort of accidentally. And man, once you do a private jet and you don't have to go through security and you’re just like, “Oh, I want that.” I say this all the time about artists. The worst thing you can do for an artist is start them touring in a bus because that's the expectation and then you know what happens? Is they got on the bus and they’re, “This isn't a very nice bus.” There are people in vans like when you were out in a van, to be on a bus, to be able to sleep horizontally would be the greatest thing ever and just because you started at this place and then you get into private jets. Everybody needs to start their first tour in a Silverado truck and then the next one to a bigger–Seth: Graduate to a suburban!Steve: A suburban would be great, then a 15 passenger old church van that you bought for $5,000 that the left side of the speakers don't work. And then, you work your way into a [inaudible 19:58] van and then into a bus. Then you're grateful for everything that's better along the way.Seth: It's more about the process than anything.Steve: Yeah.Seth: And getting there.Steve: A wise manager once said, his job is to make his artists life better every year, just a little bit better. I'm like, that's a good goal. That's a good goal to have.Seth: It is. So, your transition, we shipped about 20 years–Steve: We skipped through it very fast.[Laughter] Your transition from doing that 6pm to 3 in the morning thing in LA, you had your baby…Steve: Yep. My wife and I were praying at that point going, “God, please give us some sane clients or open another door.” And I just worked probably two months before with Peter York–Seth: And for those out there listening, was this at a record label you got your first…Steve: I was working with Peter in the studio and he called me up and said, “Hey, are you interested in A&R?” And I started in A&R in Sparrow…what's that 87, 88? Right around there and we were still in Chatsworth, California, spent time out there with him. So, I’ve been at Sparrow, moved from Sparrow to Star Songs and then back to Sparrow when they came up. Started in A&R worked my way into the marketing side, artist development side… So, yes back to Sparrow went to  Mer and worked my way up to Vice President at marketing at Mer, was general manager at [inaudible 21:34], general manager at SRI and now general manager at Centricity.Chris: Wow.Steve: It's been a long journey. If you’d ask me to 25 or 30 years ago, were you going to be general manager at Record Label? I would have laughed in your face.[Laughter]Chris: Because you didn't think it was attainable or because you didn't want have this job?Steve: That was not the path I was on. I thought, I was going to be producing records and engineering records.  Jack Pueg is still mixing great great records out there and I thought I was going to follow that path. God had something very different in mind which makes me laugh going I was talking to [inaudible 22:09] this morning and I can't believe I’ve been doing this, this long. When you're now an industry veteran it means that you've been around a long time.Seth: But I don't think looking back and I don’t want to put words in your mouth but you don't strike me as one of those people that's looking back and feeling like you’re working in the corporate side of the industry because you never made it on the creative side.Steve: No, no.Seth: You don't strike me as that at all.Steve: I made that decision for my family. What's funny is I've learned more about engineering and more about mixing and more about mastering being on the corporate side of what we're trying accomplish and why trying to do what we're doing. I learned so much about that. And for the first year or so, I was mad at God going, “Why did I just spend 9, 10 years in studios, in dark rooms working long hours if this is where you wanted me?” But realize, every day of my life in the last 27 years in the corporate side I've used information I learned in the studio. Sometimes we can't ask God why until you're 20 years down and you go, “oh I get it.”It's the path he puts us on, he brings people in and out of your life. I remember a girl over at Sparrow she was an accountant, that was her thing she loved accounting and God put me with her to learn that whole budgeting, it was only like for four months and then we were separated again but once again she changed my perspective and my life for the next 20 years. So, you don't know if these people that are coming in and out of your life are for a short period of how they're going to impact you.But yeah, I've sort of worked my way, I was one of the strange guys everybody wants to be in A&R. I started in A&R and left to got to marketing and then got back into it as I moved back up into the but everybody wants to be an A&R guy, hang out in the studios and have dinner with the artists which is not what an A&R guy does.Chris: Well it's the perception out there–Steve: Yeah, exactly, that's what they think.Chris: Just like you saying the artist is going to be in private jets.Seth: And for honestly if somebody's out there, can you break down what exactly what it is A&R. What is that? What is that job?Steve: A&R, we [inaudible 24:27] airports and restaurants which is [inaudible 24:28].[Laughter]It’s artist and repertoire. It’s basically looking for artist, finding people that have a seedling of something. Sometimes you don’t know what it is. We’ve all got our standards of what we feel like will lead to success. But finding that, nurturing it, grooming it, it’s sort of the mustard seed put into the ground, pat around and hopefully something really great grows out of it. Sometimes the plants don’t live, sometimes they give up. But it basically the music made by the A&R guy, we have one of the best in the industry in Centricity. When he’s done, when the music is done, he hands the baton over to me, and I go everywhere from there. But it’s his job to make sure we have hits, we have songs that work for live or work on the radio, an artist that’s got uniqueness to him that fits differently than everything else in the market place and sometimes it’s just plain old dumb luck. We’ve got all those where we’re like, “We though this person had everything they needed, was need for success and it didn’t work, and this one over here it’s that seedling and it’s just growing like crazy.Seth: Yeah, sometimes you don’t know or probably more often than not, I would think.Steve: How many songs have you worked on and said, “Man, that’s the hit.” I have a memory of I will eat my shoe if this is not [inaudible 26:04][Laughter] I believe you owe me a shoe eaten.Seth: I’m wearing Nikes right now. I have a feeling that this material is not organic.Chris: I was going to say, whatever you choose make sure its biodegradable.Steve: I was going to send you a shoe after one particular sock.[Laughter]We’ve all got them dude.Seth: Oh yeah, totally. I think more often than not and it’s honestly becoming a theme on this show is, we’re all just kind of winging it we’re all just guessing. So, my question to that is, I mean, it sounds like there’s a lot of responsibility placed on the shoulders of an A&R person. They’re the one that’s finding and nurturing talent and ultimately seeing what songs make it on records.I think a lot of people listening in our podcast audience, we have a lot of producers and writers and people outside of the music industry but then there are also probably some people who are just wanting to get in on the music business side and people who maybe want to be in music marketing or be in music management or maybe do what you’re doing someday, run a record label. You said what you look for interns, what qualifies a person to be an A&R person?Steve: Wow. Interesting. There are a few A&R guys you should interview. A great A&R person is able to inspire an artist beyond what they’ve every thought they could do. A great A&R person knows how to get a good song to a great song. We’re no longer in a society that good is not good enough, it has to be great. A great A&R guy can go, “You know what? There are seedlings, there are moments in here that are really great.” But you’re missing the mark I these two or three places. And then, coming in and sitting side by side with a producer like you and making sure that… I think that I’m a big movie buff and A&R guy is sort of like an executive producer on a movie where you put the team together and then sort of let the team go make the music. So, it’s the right producer for the right, for the right song and for the right artists and then let them shine where they go. It’s very much putting the pieces together. They’re not usually playing the music, they’re not [inaudible 28:34] musicians, they have to have a really good song sense and I think one of the skills an A&R guy has to know is, it’s not about them. They’ve got to know their audience, know what they’re making for because all of us have a tendency to gravitate towards music that’s on the fringe because we listen to so much stuff that all of the stuff in the middle starts mucking up. There’s a big muck in the middle. So, “you know what I like? I like this thing way over here or way over there.” Where a normal consumer listens to 10 records a year, the middle is the sweet spot for them. So, an A&R guy that understands who he’s trying to record for is very important.Seth: That’s very good. And, you said that they have to have a great song sense, that is even a sticky situation because why is one person’s song sense better than the other? Is that determined by track record? And, if you’ve never done A&R before, how do you prove that, hey I know a hit when I hear one?Steve: You know what? Our history of…John Mays is a 25 years somebody took a chance on him 27 years ago and said “You’re a great musician on the road, let me bring you in here.” Part is the relationship, you know, can they sit and hang with an artist? You know, you’ve been in these mediums. Where it’s like can you move an artist from A to Z while making the artist think it’s their move? As a producer it’s the same skill set of can you get an artist to bend without knowing that they’re bending? Or being able to move–Seth: All the artists out there, they just had a–Steve: I know they had a convulsion.[Laughter]And all the producer are like, yeah![Laughter]But that’s part of it, of like how do you get a song… because you don’t want to tell an artist, “You know what? This song sucks.” You just want to say, “Let’s work on the chorus. The chorus isn’t paying off hard enough, let’s make it lift better. Let’s make it shine.” Whatever it may be, moving them away from, “I love this, this is my baby. It’s beautiful.” To let’s keep working on this song.Seth: So, it sounds like it maybe starts with who they are as a person. Are they a good hang? Are they a servant? And then, the music kind of just follows and that taste follows.Steve: Our young A&R guy over there, he went through our radio department so he was listening to radio hits, radio hits, radio hits. And part of it is… There’s marketing guy named Roy Williams, I went to a seminar with him and he said he has a friend that works at General Market Record Label to pick all the singles and I’m like, “How did you learn this?” And the guy basically said, “Since I was five years old, every week I’d get my allowance and I would go buy the number one song in America.” And so for his whole life, he poured into himself hits. This is what a hit sounds like, this is what a hit sounds like, this is what a hit sounds like.Seth: That’s pretty good wisdom, right there.Steve: And so, at a certain point you go, you got to know our music, you got to listen to our music, you got to know what a hit sounds like. I’ve heard a lot of kids come though “I hate listening to Christian radio.” Then why do you listen to Christian music? How many people in country music go, “[inaudible 32:11] but I hate country music.” Get out! You’re not going to succeed.[Laughter]But they almost wear it as a banner that I hate Christian music in our market place. We have an open concept office and I’ll try to listen to two hours of Christian radio every day in my office. And if I’m listening to it, everybody in my office is listening to it too; more for this is what a hit sounds like, this is what radio sounds lie. If you’re trying to meet a need at radio and you don’t know what they’re playing, how can you meet the need? So…I digress, sorry.Seth: No, that’s gold. That’s all gold.Steve: I think you nailed it in your earlier podcast when you said, this is a servant industry. It really is. And in my life, it took me a lot of time to figure out what my calling was. I knew I wasn’t an artist but God, what does that mean? And I was walking through Exodus with my kids when they were very young and hit Exodus 17 where God say to Moses, they’re out of Egypt heading towards the Promised Land and they hit the Analcites, God calls Moses up to the hill top; arms up in the air he wins, arms down they lose. But what never caught to me until I was reading it, Moses took two people along with him Aaron and Hur and I love to say I am the Hur in the Moses’ life. It’s my job, what Hur was up there to do is to hold Moses’ arms up, that’s all he did. When Moses was weak, when Moses needed help, Hur held his hands up. That’s my calling be a servant, be there to hold your hands up. Some people know Aaron “Aaron, you know, Moses’ little brother.” No one knows who Hur is. If you’re okay standing, holding someone’s arms up and no one recognizes, you are created to be in the music industry. Because you’re not in to be the rock stars; we’re in the back of the room with our arms folded, looking at the person on stage going, “Yeah. I was there to hold their arms up.”Chris: That’s wise. One of my favorite movies is That Thing You Do, I don’t know if any of you have seen that.Steve: Yeah. I’m the guy that goes, “You look great in black.”[Laughter]Chris: Has anyone told you that?Steve: Yeah.Chris: But, one of my favorite characters in the movie, and they’re filled with them. Anybody out there that hasn’t seen it, it’s a great movie.Steve: Please, go see it.Chris: But there’s Horus who’s basically the A&R guy that sees them in–Steve: In the camper-[Laughter]Chris: Yeah, he lives in a camper and he’s essentially the A&R guy. But he sees them in a performance at an Italian restaurant or something and comes and buys their album and get’s them to sign a little deal. And then at the end, when they get signed to a major label and they’re going out to play these state fairs, Horus leaves and the main character drummer of the band says, “We don’t want you to leave.” And he goes, “My [inaudible 35:27] is done. I’ve done what I’m supposed to do.” And then move on to the next thing and so he wasn’t meant to ride that out the whole movie; he’s there for a specific piece to move it from A to C. He’s the B part of it, the Hur of that story so to speak.Steve: Nowadays, you’d call them just production deals. You start working with an unknown artist who has a little bit of talent, you start developing them and then you start shopping them to record labels. And then you go, my job here is done. They then take the baton and now try to make to a national artist. If you make 2 out of 20, 3 out of 20, you’re in great shape. You’re a hall of fame baseball player if you hit 3 out of 10. And you’re a hall of fame A&R guy if 3 out of your 10 are hit artists.It’s a cycle, you have the young artist going up; you have the artist at their peak; and then you have some that are on their way down. And you’ve got to keep that circle going because any artist that’s been at the top is going to be past its peak and slowly work its way down, and you got to have the new artist coming up behind to grow into. So it’s a continual cycle of in the music industry. The circle of life in music would be that.Chris: I had a mentor –Scott [inaudible 36:48] if you’re listening I’m about to talk about you- but he always talked about how life in the ministry or in a career is kind of like looking at life or the people that you interact is like a watching a parade go by. There are things that are right in front of you, there are things that you just saw, and there are things that are coming down. And to really appreciate what is happening in the parade you have to absorb it all. And so there’s a little bit of grabbing from each of those in order to get the full experience of it all.Steve: And the bigger what’s right in front of you, the bigger those artists are in front of you, sometimes you don’t have time to look behind and develop what’s behind and what happens is with a lot of these record labels and I’ve been at these where, man they’ve got the big, and they slowly slipping. The [inaudible 37:32] slowly start getting past their prime and they haven’t developed anything behind them and then you’re in trouble because you’ve got this machine you’ve got to feed and you haven’t created for the future, it’s only for the present.And so, every A&R guy wants to sing but some of the big labels, the big artists, the A’s are so big that’s all they’re paying attention to. We’ve all seen it, we’ve all seen artists where we say, “Man, they’re amazing” but they got lost in the shuffle and that’s the sadness. We forget that we’re playing with people’s lives, especially on the record label side their dreams.I signed this band at a label and they were 18 years old when I signed them and 21 years old when I had to drop them. So, their dreams had come true and shattered by the time they were 21. And it’s just hard when you start thinking about that stuff.Chris: That’s true. And if you think about it there are some people that are fortunate enough to have a full career in the music industry and there are some people that have a three year window kind of like a profession sports guy or those things. There’s a window and the once you pass it, yeah but the guy is only 24 and the band is only 21. What’s coming up for them?Steve: You know what, I think it’s a catalyst of those people leaving or burning out, is balance. You guys have said it; I can walk through a record label at 8 o’clock at night and I can tell you which employees will be gone in a year because they have nothing to put back into themselves. The music industry is a take industry, it just continues squeezing and it just wants more and more and more. If you have one they want five; if you have five we want ten; if we have ten we want twenty, and it’s never enough. My poor radio team goes, “Hey we got number one.” And I’m like, “Great. How do we keep it on number one for another week?” It’s never enough and so you continue squeezing out what this industry does, if you don’t have a ministry, if you don’t have a relationship, if you don’t have friends that give back to you that don’t care what you do  for a living and basically go, “Yeah, yeah. You do music, how are you?” You know, if there aren’t nursing students at the college that you got to that are your friends, you’re going to burn out.  Because there’s nothing giving back, there’s no one pouring into you. Sooner or later the candle ends, there’s no more fuel and it juts burns out.So, I try to keep my staff saying, I want you to go to concerts and date people and go home at 6 o’clock and have a life. Because if you don’t have a life you have nothing to come back when you come back tomo

Summary of today's show: After emerging from the silence of the conclave that elected Pope Francis, Cardinal Seán O'Malley of Boston met with reporters from Boston and beyond to discuss voting in the conclave, his impressions of the new Holy Father, and what he takes away from the experience. Also, Scot Landry provides his perspective on the events as a pilgrim in St. Peter's Square. Finally, we look at the upcoming Sunday Mass readings. Listen to the show: Watch the show via live video streaming or a recording later: Today's host(s): Scot Landry Today's guest(s): Cardinal Seán O'Malley Links from today's show: Today's topics: LIVE From Rome: Cardinal Seán's first press conference after the conclave 1st segment: Thank you Rick. Welcome everyone, those listening in Boston and in these weeks of papal transition, those listening to the Station of the Cross from upstate New York and on iCatholic Radio. The world is learning so much more about our New Holy Father, Pope Francis. We are hearing reactions from Cardinals who participated in the Conclave to his election. We are also learning from his actions and from his first homily to the Cardinals in the Sistine Chapel a little bit more about his priorities as Pope. We will hear Cardinal Sean's reactions in the first half of the show and then reflect on Pope Francis' first homily as our Holy Father in the second half of the show. But first, have you ever wondered what it would be like to be standing in Saint Peter's Square to see the white smoke, to hear “Habemus Papam” and the new Pope's former name, and then to receive the Apostolic blessing. Until Wednesday night in Rome, I wondered about that too. But I had such a privileged opportunity to be there for the surprise of an earlier election than most anticipated and then to see, hear and experience what it was like. At around 7pm, when the smoke appeared, it was raining heavily in Piazza San Pietro. So you needed to move around the umbrellas to see the sightlines. Here is how I reacted: Then after a period of waiting, here is what it sounded like in St. Peter's Square when they announced who the next Holy Father would be. [audio src=http://media.thegoodcatholiclife.com/2013-03-14-Habemus-Papam-Announcement.mp3] Then about 10 minutes later, we heard the first words from Pope Francis. [audio src=”http://media.thegoodcatholiclife.com/2013-03-14-Pope-Francis-Remarks.mp3”] Then our New Holy Father gave us his first Apostolic Blessing. The whole experience was tremendously moving. For a complete description of what it was like, please visit TheGoodCatholicLife.com and see . We'll be back after this and we'll listen to Cardinal Sean's press conference yesterday with the Boston Media. You are listening to The Good Catholic Life. 2nd segment: Welcome back to the Good Catholic Life on our 2nd full day of the papacy of Pope Francis. Yesterday at the Pontifical North America College, Cardinal Seán greeted the press from Boston. It was a packed room just of Boston journalists. There asking questions were Lisa Zoll from the Associated Press, Joe Mathieu from WBZ radio, Lisa Hughes from WBZ-TV, Kim Khazei from WHDH, Heather Unruh from WCVB, Patricia Thomas from Associated Press TV, Lisa Wangness and David Filipov from the Globe, plus their camera operators and producers. In my brief conversations with Cardinal Seán before and after the media events, it was very apparent that he rejoiced in the election of Pope Francis and that he was extremely happy he would be returning to Boston to celebrate the liturgies of Holy Week. We'll begin with his opening statement and then you'll hear questions from the journalists around the room. Cardinal Seán: Well obviously, for everyone in the Church, that decision of Pope Benedict to resign was a shock, and in some ways, a crisis for us. To be without a Pope is being [spiritually] orphaned. So, the Conclave has given us a new Holy Father, a new representative for the Church, and a new Vicar of Christ. So it's obviously a moment of great joy for the whole Catholic world. Being a part of it was a very humbling and moving experience. The Conclave is a very prayerful experience. It's almost like a retreat. I know that when you read the Italian papers, it seems like it a political campaign, or like the primaries or something. [Laughter] It really is a spiritual and prayerful experience of discernment. When you walk up with a ballot in your hand and stand before the image of the Last Judgment and say, “with Christ as my witness, I am voting for the one whom I feel is the one God wants to do this [Petrine Ministry]. This is a great responsibility. Obviously, we're delighted that the Holy Spirit moved us to elect Pope Francis. I certainly approve of the name! [Laughter] It is a great thing for us to have a Pope from the New World. I won't say he's the first non-European [Pope], because early on there were African Popes in the Church. He's the first one from our hemisphere and obviously that's a part of the world where half of the Catholics live. Also, almost half the Catholics in the United States are also Hispanic. The Pope is everyone's Holy Father, but it's a wonderful connection for him to have that cultural and linguistic tie with so many of the faithful. We're also happy to see the interest of the press. [Laughter.] So many have been credentialed to cover this event. Last night, from the loggia looking down at the multitude in the Square, listening to the roar of enthusiasm, seeing all the flashes going off, hearing the papal anthem being played, and listening to the Holy Father's words, and asking the people to pray with him and praying the very simple prayers that all Catholics know: The Our Father, The Hail Mary, The Glory Be. It was very moving. Rachel Zoll from the Associated Press: Could you talk a little bit about how you got to know Pope Francis? How long have you known him? Cardinal Seán: Well, I first met him in different meetings over the years. A couple years ago I was his guest in Argentina. I have always known of him and been an admirer of his. He's very close to a number of the Capuchins in Argentina, who are the members of my order. [Followup] Rachel Zoll from the Associated Press: Would it be fair to say you know him very well? Cardinal Seán: Yes. Joe Mathieu from WBZ radio. Good morning and thank you for spending time with us. We appreciate you for being so generous. Your name has been thrown around in the Boston press, Italian press, International press for some many days with so much speculation. I am wondering if you feel a sense of relief this morning that you have the same job? Cardinal Seán: As I told someone this morning, if the only prerequisite for being Pope was not wanting the job, I would have been the most qualified Cardinal in the Conclave. [Laughter.] So, of course, I was gratified by the warmth of the Italians in their enthusiasm for me. But that's because they love St. Francis. They got a Pope Francis anyway, so I hope they're satisfied. [Laughter.] Lisa Hughes from WBZ-TV. When we were here last night, Your Eminence, Cardinal Dolan described the moment when Pope Francis said “accepto.” He said that there wasn't a dry eye in the house. Can you describe that moment when former Cardinal Bergoglio accepted this honor? Cardinal Seán: Well, obviously, we were all hoping that he wouldn't decline. [Laughter.] It was a very moving moment. Afterwards, each one of us went up and kissed his ring, hugged him, and congratulated him. It was a very moving experience, truly. Kim Khazei from WHDH. I wanted to just ask that about the popularity. Even though you said you bought a round trip ticket, a lot of people thought that you would be a great fit for the job. Your humility. What else is there about you that you might have been able to bring to the table? You also spoke about Pope Francis, particularly you talked about reforming the Church being a priority. Do you expect to see more the same or change in the Catholic Church? Cardinal Seán: Pope Francis is coming out of Latin America where there is such a contrast of rich and poor, and so many very grave social problems. He is a man who is very much impassioned by the desire to make the Church present to people in their suffering, relieve the suffering of the poor, and make them feel that it is their Church. I think that is going to have repercussions in this pontificate. [Followup] Kim Khazei from WHDH. With some of the pain people have felt back home in Massachusetts and in the United States, with the scandal, do you think there will be healing there? Cardinal Seán: I'm confident that there will be. This is a man who has a great sense of mission. He values transparency. I have great confidence that he will further the process of healing in our Church. Heather Unruh from WCVB - It's great to see you. Thanks for having us today. Can you tell me your reaction when you realized that this was would be the first Jesuit Pope? What does he significantly and uniquely bring to the Papacy? Cardinal Seán: The Jesuit order is one of the most important orders in the Church. I make a lot of jokes about Franciscans and Jesuits [laughter]. Their educational ministry and their presence in our missions is so great. They are known for their discernment. We need a wise and discerning leader in the Church at this time. I'm sure that he will help to re-energize the Catholic identity of Jesuit education and be a great source of encouragement to the Jesuit order throughout the world. It's been a long time since we've had a religious as Pope. I think having somebody in the consecrated life as Pope is also a way of lifting up this vocation in the Church, of men and women religious, who so often around the frontlines throughout the world. We're very, very pleased that we have a Jesuit Pope. Patricia Thomas from Associated Press TV - A Jesuit priest said to me this morning that Pope Francis came out without the mozetto on top of his vestments. This is a Pope who's not going to fit in with the ‘silk and fur atmosphere' of the papal court? Do you agree with that? Also, Thursday he is supposed to go to Castel Gandolfo. How do you think his relationship with the Pope Emeritus is going to work? Cardinal Seán: I'm sure that he will have a very great relationship with Pope Benedict. In fact, I was touched that one of the first things he did [last night] was to ask people to pray for Pope Benedict, and he expressed gratitude for his ministry. Obviously, as a Latin American, he doesn't have the same weight of European history that people from this continent have. So I think he's probably to be a little freer to perhaps jettison some of the traditional things. Those traditions are important to our people too, so there has to be a balance between what is appropriate in the 21st-century and what is a holdover from the past. Scot Landry from TheGoodCatholicLife.com and The Pilot- Cardinal Seán you mentioned you like the name Francis that he took. St. Francis had a mandate to rebuild the Church, primarily spiritually. Do you think that's the significance of him choosing the name Francis, that he thinks he has a mandate to rebuild the Church? Cardinal Seán: I think that there are three themes in St. Francis that he's identifying with. I haven't spoken with him about this, so I'm sort of reading his mind. Certainly , he rebuilding the Church, the reforms of government in the Church and so forth [is one]. Also, certainly Francis as a universal brother. Francis wanted to be a brother to everyone. We have the famous “Brother Sun, Sister Moon.” Yesterday he spoke about the brotherhood, the fraternity, that he wants to reign in the Church and in the world. That people look at themselves as brothers and sisters. That's a very Franciscan theme. Also, St. Francis's love for the poor. For St. Francis the poor person was the Sacrament of Christ. Christ emptied himself, took on the form of a slave, and embraced the cross for love of us. For Francis, the poor person was a sacrament of Christ. That's the vision that Pope Francis has and that's why he chose that name. He was very clear right from the beginning. He said this is in honor of St. Francis of Assisi, not Francis Xavier who was the Jesuit. [Laughter]. Rachel Zoll from the Associated Press: Can you talk a little bit about the stability and some the challenges ahead for this Pope? There was some surprise about age. There were expectations and built up that perhaps somebody younger would be chosen as Pope, so that the Pontificate would be a little bit longer. Can you talk about that a little bit? Was that assumption wrong? Cardinal Seán: Obviously the assumption was wrong. [Laughter.] I think age was a consideration, but there were other considerations that weighed more heavily I think on the discernment process. Whether the Pope's reign is long or short is not particularly important. Pope John XXIII was older when he was elected and so was Pope Benedict. I think the experience that he has and the gifts that he brings to the ministry are so precious and wonderful. Joe Mathieu from WBZ Radio - Cardinal Seán, it's been reported many times over the past 12 to 24 hours that Cardinal Bergoglio rejected many of the luxuries that are enjoyed by many Cardinals across the world: no limousines; no mansions; he lived in a small apartment; cooked his own meals they say; took the bus to work. I'm wondering to what extent you relate with that lifestyle and whether this is going to be a change in lifestyle for all Cardinals around the world. Cardinal Seán: I'm not sure what the impact will be. Certainly, the simplicity with which he has lived [is a example for all]. I think he's been very faithful and has tried to live his religious life even as a Bishop and as a cardinal. That's a good example that we hope will have an impact. Lisa Hughes from WBZ-TV. Your Eminence, what do you want to people in Boston to know about Pope Francis today? Cardinal Seán: Well, just that is a very good man, and that he's going to be a good leader for the Church. His experience of coming out of Latin America is also very important to us in the New World, and particularly, in the growing immigrant populations in Boston. I think there will be a great sense of joy and identification with the Holy Father. I'm curious to see what will happen this Summer at World Youth Day. They were already talking about 2 to 3 million young people in Rio. But that was before they counted on all of Argentina coming, [laughter] and the rest of Latin America. It will be quite a wonderful event. [Followup] Lisa Hughes from WBZ-TV. Will you go? Cardinal Seán: Yes. Kim Khazei from WHDH: Cardinal Seán, when you first walked into the room and made your opening remarks, you said you were moved when Pope Francis asked people to pray. It brought you close to tears. What specifically where you were reflecting on that made you so emotional? Cardinal Seán: They were simple prayers that all Catholics know. From children to old people, to those who have university education, and those who are illiterate. Those prayers unite us all in the same family of faith. It was beautiful to see how he was able to hush hundreds of thousands of people who were cheering and so enthusiastic. He was able to bring them to the moment of prayer, to be in God's presence. [Followup] Kim Khazei from WHDH: Did this whole experience end up being one of the most important moments of your life? Cardinal Seán: I never imagined as a child that someday I would be a part of the Conclave. Some of you may be old enough to remember there was a movie out – “The Cardinal” - many years ago. Although the storyline was not the most edifying, they were famous for the way they replicated the scene in the Sistine Chapel. I never imagined that someday I would be in that Chapel, taking that oath before Christ the Judge of the world, and being part of choosing a new successor to Saint Peter. Heather Unruh from WCVB: I know you've made it clear, Cardinal Seán, that you looked forward to that round-trip ticket home. What are you most looking forward to? I know that if you had been as Pope, you would give up the entire life that you've known so far. So now that you know if you're returning to Boston, and the things you love, what are you most looking forward to? Cardinal Seán: During Holy Week, we have the Chrism Mass, which to me is one of the most important moments of the year. I gather with all the priests, we renew our vows to serve God's people, we bless the oils that are used as our tools for baptisms, confirmations, and anointing of the sick. That's always a very important moment for priests. I look forward to sharing that moment with my priests each year. [Followup] Heather Unruh from WCVB: Are you also looking forward to some of the smaller things in life, the things that you like to do? Maybe you could elaborate on if you have a favorite street you walk on. Cardinal Seán: Well I think just being able to go out and walk. [Laughter]. People talk about the palace that the Pope has and everything. He's a prisoner in a museum. [Laughter]. It's not a wonderful life. In fact, I read Cardinal Dziwisz's book about his experience being Pope John Paul II's secretary for so many years. In that book, he reveals that John Paul II used to sneak out [of the Vatican] to go skiing. Nobody knew about that. I was so happy, [laughter] because the Italian government, The Gendarmes, the Army and everyone else would have had a fit. But they used to put him in the backseat of the car and go out and go skiing. I hope Francis will be able to sneak out occasionally, to go to a tango show or something. [Laughter.] Patricia Thomas from Associated Press TV - Last night I was standing at the obelisk just like I was when Cardinal Ratzinger came out in 2005. It was taking longer. I was standing with a lot of Italian photographers who were joking around saying, “it's taking so long, he must be panicking back there because he doesn't want to do it.” Why was it taking so long? Was he doing the tango? [Laughter.] What was going on back there? Cardinal Seán: Well, there was such a crowd of people. Just getting him through took a long time because everybody wanted to congratulate him. A lot of the workers came in at that time. Also I think that they also wait to give people the time to get to the Piazza. I think he could have gone out earlier. The Sistine Chapel is right near the loggia. From the Sistine Chapel, we first prayed the Te Deum, a hymn of Thanksgiving. Then we greeted the Holy Father individually. Then we started walking over toward the big window. Then there was a big crowd out there [in the loggia] that kind of slowed things down. [Overall] I think the plan is always to give enough time for people to get to the Piazza once the word gets out that there is white smoke. Scot Landry from TheGoodCatholicLife.com and The Pilot- Cardinal Seán, you've just gone through a week of General Congregation meetings and a couple of days in the Conclave. You've been a priest for more than 40 years, a Bishop for more than 25, and a Cardinal for 7 years. What have you learned new, over the last week or so, that has helped you appreciate the beauty of the Catholic Faith more, that you look forward to sharing with Catholics in the Archdiocese of Boston? Cardinal Seán: The catholicity of the Church. Being with the Cardinals from all over the world and listening to them talk about the experience of the faith and their people in Asia and Africa and South America and North America and Europe. The mission that we share as Catholics. Our fraternity in the Church, as brothers and sisters in the Lord, through our baptism. It's a very moving experience. Lisa Wangsness from the Boston Globe. Could you talk about the kind of relationship you expect to have as Cardinal Archbishop of Boston with the new Pope. Do you expect to invite him to Boston? Do you think because you share a love for Latin America and the Spanish language, that you'll have any particular mission or projects that you'll be working on? Cardinal Seán: It's a little early to forecast. Certainly, as Cardinals, we are at the disposition of the Holy Father and are his advisors. I told him that whatever we can do to help, we stand ready. We would look forward to inviting him someday to Boston. It would be good. It's been a long time since we've had a Pope there. John Paul II was there in 1979. So we're due. [Laughter.] David Filopov from the Boston Globe. We have heard snippets of things that the Pope has said that portray a humility and a sense of humor. Where you there at the toast, for example, when he said “may God forgive you all” [for electing me]. How does he come across as a person? Is he really the soft-spoken, self-deprecating man that was seen glimpses of? Cardinal Seán: He is. He's very disarming. I had lunch with him yesterday before the vote [laughing]. At that point, he seemed very weighed down by what was happening. Last night, I think that was at peace in his heart that God's will has been accomplished in his life. He's very approachable. He's very friendly. He has a good sense of humor. He's very quick and a joy to be with. [Followup] David Filopov from the Boston Globe. Father Lombardi told us that he didn't use the papal car but rather he rode back on the bus with the other Cardinals. How was the atmosphere? Were you surprised that he rode back on the bus? Did you expect that? Cardinal Seán: That's what I would've expected. Lisa Wangsness from the Boston Globe. Can you talk a little bit about the time you spend with him in Buenos Aires in 2010? Cardinal Seán: I was there on business for the USCCB, the Bishops conference, and I was his guest. We did have the time to visit and talk a lot about this situation of the Church in Latin America. We spoke a lot about our some of our mutual friends. He gave me a great CD that I enjoy very much. It is the Misa Criolla, which is Argentine music for a Mass arrangement. It was a very pleasant and very informal visit, because my business for the USCCB was not precisely with him. With him, it was more of a social visit. [Followup] Lisa Wangsness from the Boston Globe. Were you at his house? Cardinal Seán: Yes. [Followup] Lisa Wangsness from the Boston Globe. Did you visit his apartment? If so, can you describe it? Cardinal Seán: He lives in the part of the Chancery, which is a church office building. There's an apartment in there and perhaps his secretaries. I'm not really sure who is in the other apartments. Those are Cardinal Sean O'Malley's remarks at the press conference yesterday with Boston media. I'd like to highlight 7 points from his remarks that stood out to me. Cardinal described the Conclave as a very prayerful experience. It's almost like a retreat. It really is a spiritual experience of discernment. When you walk up with a ballot in your hand and stand before the image of the Last Judgment and say, “with Christ as my witness, I am voting for the one whom I feel is the one God wants to do this [Petrine Ministry]. This is a great responsibility. He also mentioned it was so easy to pray looking at the ceiling and the frescoes in the Sistine Chapel. Cardinal Sean was thrilled that he took the name Francis and he made sure to emphasize that Pope Francis took the name to emulate St. Francis of Assisi. He speculated that he did it for 3 reasons – Because of St. Francis' mission to rebuild the Church. Because of St. Francis' emphasis that we all are brothers and sisters in the Lord. And because of St. Francis' love of the poor. Cardinal Seán expressed his happiness at coming home to Boston soon and clarified that he didn't want the job with his typical humor: “As I told someone this morning, if the only prerequisite for being Pope was not wanting the job, I would have been the most qualified Cardinal in the Conclave. [Laughter.] So, of course, I was gratified by the warmth of the Italians in their enthusiasm for me. But that's because they love St. Francis. They got a Pope Francis anyway, so I hope they're satisfied.” [Laughter.] Cardinal Sean became emotional when he described the experience looking at the crowd in Piazza San Pietro and Francis calling them to prayer. He said “Last night, from the loggia looking down at the multitude in the Square, listening to the roar of enthusiasm, seeing all the flashes going off, hearing the papal anthem being played, and listening to the Holy Father's words, and asking the people to pray with him and praying the very simple prayers that all Catholics know: The Our Father, The Hail Mary, The Glory Be. It was very moving. They were simple prayers that all Catholics know. From children to old people, to those who have university education, and those who are illiterate. Those prayers unite us all in the same family of faith. It was beautiful to see how he was able to hush hundreds of thousands of people who were cheering and so enthusiastic. He was able to bring them to the moment of prayer, to be in God's presence. Cardinal Sean said that age was a consideration, but there were other considerations that weighed more heavily I think on the discernment process. He commented that whether the Pope's reign is long or short is not particularly important. Pope John XXIII was older when he was elected and so was Pope Benedict. I think the experience that he has and the gifts that he brings to the ministry are so precious and wonderful. Cardinal Sean said that he's most looking to returning to Boston for Holy Week. He said “During Holy Week, we have the Chrism Mass, which to me is one of the most important moments of the year. I gather with all the priests, we renew our vows to serve God's people, we bless the oils that are used as our tools for baptisms, confirmations, and anointing of the sick. That's always a very important moment for priests. I look forward to sharing that moment with my priests each year. In describing Pope Francis personally, Cardinal Sean said that he knew him well and mentioned that Pope Francis is very approachable, very friendly, has a good sense of humor, he's very quick thinking and a joy to be with. Next on the Good Catholic Life, we'll discuss Pope Francis' first homily to the Cardinals and to the world. Please stay tuned. 3rd segment: Yesterday, Pope Francis met with the Cardinals in the Sistine Chapel at 5pm for the Celebration of Mass. He preached without written remarks and he did it from the pulpit instead of sitting in a chair. It was very different from what we've seen over the last couple of decades. It was impressive to me, given all he's been through over the past few days, to hear him deliver such an eloquent homily off the cuff. Here is a translated version of what he preached, courtesy of There is something that I see that these three readings have in common: movement. In the first reading it is the movement of a journey; in the second reading it is the movement in building the Church; in the third, the Gospel, it is the movement of confession. Journeying, building, confessing. First, Journeying. “House of Jacob, come, let us walk together in the light of the Lord” (Isaiah 2:5). This is the first thing that God said to Abraham: Walk in my presence and you will be blameless. Journey: our life is a journey and when we stop it does not go on. Journey always in the presence of the Lord, in the light of the Lord, seeking to live with that blamelessness that God asked of Abraham in his promise. Second, Building. Building the Church. Stones are spoken of: the stones have a consistency, but they are the living stones, stones anointed by the Spirit. Building the Church, the Bride of Christ, upon that cornerstone that is the Lord himself. Building is another form of movement in our life. Third, confessing. We can journey as much as we want, we can build many things, but if we do not confess Jesus Christ, the thing does not work. We will become a welfare NGO but not the Church, the Bride of Christ. When we do not journey, we stop. When we do not build upon the stones, what happens? Everything collapses, loses its consistency, like the sandcastles that children build on the beach. When we do not confess Jesus Christ, I am reminded of the words of Léon Bloy: “Whoever does not pray to the Lord, prays to the devil.” When we do not confess Jesus Christ, we confess the worldliness of the devil, the worldliness of the demon. Journeying, building-constructing, confessing. But it is not that easy, because in journeying, in constructing, in confessing, there are problems, there are movements antithetical to the journey: they are movements that take us backward. This Gospel continues with an important moment. The same Peter who had confessed Jesus Christ said to him: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let's not talk about the cross. This is not a part of it. I will follow you in other directions, but not to the cross. When we journey without the cross, when we build without the cross and when we confess a Christ without the cross, we are not disciples of the Lord: we are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, popes, but not disciples of the Lord. I would like for us all, after these days of grace, to have courage, precisely the courage, to walk in the Lord's presence, with the cross of the Lord; to build the Church upon the blood of the Lord, which was poured out on the cross; and to confess the only glory there is: Christ crucified. And in this way the Church will go forward. It is my wish for all of us that the Holy Spirit – through the prayer of Our Lady, our Mother – bestow upon us the grace of journeying, building, confessing Jesus Christ crucified. Amen. Those are the words from the first homily of Pope Francis yesterday in the Sistine Chapel. A few things struck me. He's a talented preacher to do this off the cuff. We are in for some great homilies during his pontificate. He used down to earth analogies, such as sandcastles on the beach that get washed away. He used powerful, striking language. He said if we don't confess Christ and put him at the center of our mission, we become a welfare NGO. He said we need to confess Christ with the Cross. And to his brother bishops – and through them to us – he challenged us by saying “without confessing the cross, we are not disciples of the Lord: we are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, popes, but not disciples of the Lord. That's tough. I loved how he described that we are always moving. We are either moving forward in the spiritual life or if we're just trying to stay in place we'll regress. He implored the bishops and the entire Church to walk with courage proclaiming the Cross of Christ. The last thing was that he ended his homily calling on the Blessed Mother. I believe Pope Francis will be known someday for his Marian Devotion just like Blessed John Paul II was. I can't wait until his next homily at his installation Mass on Tuesday morning. We'll take a look forward at this Sunday's Mass readings next. You are listening to the Good Catholic Life. 4th segment: Welcome back to The Good Catholic Life here from Rome. For our new listeners, we often try to end our week by turning toward the Sunday readings. Hearing them on Friday gives us the chance to reflect on them before we join our Brothers and Sisters at Mass on Sunday. Thus says the LORD, who opens a way in the sea and a path in the mighty waters, who leads out chariots and horsemen, a powerful army, till they lie prostrate together, never to rise, snuffed out and quenched like a wick. Remember not the events of the past, the things of long ago consider not; see, I am doing something new! Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? In the desert I make a way, in the wasteland, rivers. Wild beasts honor me, jackals and ostriches, for I put water in the desert and rivers in the wasteland for my chosen people to drink, the people whom I formed for myself, that they might announce my praise. Gospel for the Fifth Sunday of Lent, March 17, 2013 (John 8:1-11) Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. But early in the morning he arrived again in the temple area, and all the people started coming to him, and he sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he bent down and wrote on the ground. And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She replied, “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.” Now some reflections (courtesy of ): Last week, Jesus preached to us the parable of the Prodigal Son, which stressed the Father's undying love for his wayward child, the meaning of genuine repentance and the sadness of the older brother who couldn't share his father's joy. In today's Gospel, that STORY (parable) about God's forgiveness becomes REALITY, in the encounter of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery and with all the “older brothers” who were trying to get her killed rather than trying to bring her to mercy. Just as Jesus wanted us last week to see ourselves as the prodigal son, who acted as if his father were dead and squandered the inheritance of love, so he wants us to see ourselves in the woman caught red-handed. Moreover, just as the Lord wants us to recognize that often we can behave like the older brother in the parable who resents mercy given to sinful siblings, so, too, the Lord wishes us to drop whatever stones are in our hands and use even other's sins as a reminder of our own. The Church gives us this reading on the fifth Sunday of Lent to remind us, first, of the horror and the just consequences of sin; second, of the incredible gift of God's mercy; and third, of what we need to do to receive that mercy. The first big lesson in today's Gospel that the Church wants us to grasp this Lent. Each of us is like that woman caught in adultery, whether or not we've been captured by others in the act of committing such a sin. In the revelation God gave us in the Old Testament, He revealed that every sin is really adultery, because it is being unfaithful to the covenant of love we have entered into with God. He referred to Israel as his adulterous bride, and, in some ways, each of us are part of that adulterous bride. Each of us merits to be stoned. But, as we see in St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians, Christ laid down his life to make his bride holy and spotless. He, the only one who fully merits to be able to cast a stone, took the stones, the bullet, intended for us and died out of love so that his bride wouldn't have to. Such great love is supposed to lead to three reactions on our part: The first is to have a just horror for our sins and to recognize how deadly they are The second thing is to come to receive his mercy The third reaction is to stop judging others and begin to extend God's merciful forgiveness to them That will conclude today's episode of The Good Catholic Life. For recordings of today's show and all our previous shows, please visit our website, TheGoodCatholicLife.com. We encourage you also to follow our daily blog from Rome which is also available at TheGoodCatholicLife.com and to view George Martell's photos on BostonCatholicPhotos.com. For our production team of Rick Heil, Dom Bettinelli, George Martell and Karla Goncalves, this is Scot Landry saying so long from Rome, God Bless You and Have a wonderful weekend!