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In this episode, Amir sits down with Santhosh Kumar, Head of Data at Trepp, to unpack the evolving world of Data as a Product. Data is no longer just a support function—it's becoming a core business driver. Santhosh shares how data teams are embracing a product-oriented approach, aligning closely with business goals while mirroring software engineering practices.If you've ever wondered:How data can be treated like a shippable productWhat mindset shifts data teams needAnd how collaboration between data, product, and tech teams is evolvingThis episode is for you!

Genevieve Hayes Consulting Episode 54: The Hidden Productivity Killer Most Data Scientists Miss Why do some data scientists produce results at a rate 10X that of their peers?Many data scientists believe that better technologies and faster tools are the key to accelerating their impact. But the highest-performing data scientists often succeed through a different approach entirely.In this episode, Ben Johnson joins Dr Genevieve Hayes to discuss how productivity acts as a hidden multiplier for data science careers, and shares proven strategies to dramatically accelerate your results.This episode reveals:Why lacking clear intention kills productivity — and how to ensure every analysis drives real decisions. [02:11]A powerful “storyboarding” framework for turning vague requests into actionable projects. [09:51]How to deliver results faster using modern data architectures and raw data analysis. [13:19]The game-changing mindset shift that transforms data scientists from order-takers into trusted strategic partners. [17:05] Guest Bio Ben Johnson is the CEO and Founder of Particle 41, a development firm that helps businesses accelerate their application development, data science and DevOps projects. Links Connect with Ben on LinkedIn Connect with Genevieve on LinkedInBe among the first to hear about the release of each new podcast episode by signing up HERE Read Full Transcript [00:00:00] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Hello and welcome to Value Driven Data Science, the podcast that helps data scientists transform their technical expertise into tangible business value, career autonomy, and financial reward. I’m Dr. Genevieve Hayes, and today I’m joined by Ben Johnson, CEO and founder of Particle 41, a development firm that helps businesses accelerate their application development, data science, and DevOps projects.[00:00:30] In this episode, we’ll discuss strategies for accelerating your data science impact and results without sacrificing technical robustness. So get ready to boost your impact. Earn what you’re worth and rewrite your career algorithm. Ben, welcome to the show.[00:00:48] Ben Johnson: Yeah, thank you for having me.[00:00:50] Dr Genevieve Hayes: One of the most common misconceptions I see about data scientists is the mistaken belief that their worth within a business is directly linked to the technical complexity of the solutions they can produce.[00:01:04] And to a certain extent, this is true. I mean, if you can’t program, fit a model, or perform even the most basic statistical analysis, realistically, your days as a data scientist are probably numbered. However, while technical skills are certainly necessary to land a data science job, The data scientists I see making the biggest impact are the ones who are not necessarily producing the most complex solutions, but who can produce solutions to the most pressing business problems in the shortest possible time.[00:01:41] So in that sense, productivity can be seen as a hidden multiplier for data science careers. Ben, as the founder of a company that helps businesses accelerate their data science initiatives, it’s unsurprising that one of your areas of interest is personal productivity. Based on your experience, What are some of the biggest productivity killers holding data scientists back?[00:02:11] Ben Johnson: I don’t know for others. I know for myself that what kills my productivity is not having an intention or a goal or a direct target that I’m trying to go for. So when we solve the science problems, we’re really trying to figure out, like, what is that hunt statement or that question that key answer you know, the question that will bring the answer.[00:02:33] And also, what is the right level of information that would handle that at the asker’s level? So the ask is coming from a context or a person. And so we can know a lot. If that person is a fellow data scientist, then obviously we want to give them data. We want to answer them with data. But if that’s a results oriented business leader, then we need to make sure that we’re giving them information.[00:02:57] And we. Are the managers of the data, but to answer your question, I think that the biggest killer to productivity is not being clear on what question are we trying to answer?[00:03:08] Dr Genevieve Hayes: That, resonates with my own experience. One of the things I encountered early in my data science career was well, to take a step back. I originally trained as an actuary and worked as an actuary, and I was used to the situation where your boss would effectively tell you what to do. So, go calculate, calculate.[00:03:28] premiums for a particular product. So when I moved into data science, I think I expected the same from my managers. And so I would ask my boss, okay, what do you want me to do? And his answer would be something like, Oh here’s some data, go do something with it. And you can probably imagine the sorts of solutions that we got myself and my team would come up with something that was a model that looks like a fun fit[00:03:59] and those solutions tended to go down like a lead balloon. And it was only after several failures along those lines that it occurred to me, , maybe we should look at these problems from a different, point of view and figure out what is it that the senior management actually want to do with this data before starting to build a particular model from it.[00:04:24] Ben Johnson: Yeah. What decision are you trying to make? Just kind of starting with like the end in mind or the result in mind, I find in any kind of digital execution there are people who speak results language and there are people who speak solutions language. And when we intermix those two conversations,[00:04:41] it’s frustrating, it’s frustrating for the solution people to be like, okay, great. When are you going to give it to me? And it’s frustrating for the business folks, like hey, when am I going to get that answer when we want to talk about the solution? So I found like bifurcating like, okay, let’s have a results or planning discussion separate from a solution and asking for that right to proceed.[00:05:02] In the way that we communicate is super helpful., what your share reminds me of is some of the playbooks that we have around data QA, because in those playbooks, we’re doing analysis just for analysis sake. I feel like we’re looking for the outliers.[00:05:18] Okay. So if we look at this metric, these are the outliers. And really what we’re doing is we’re going back to the, originators of the data and say, like, sanity, check this for us. We want to run through a whole set of sanity checks to make sure that the pipeline that we’re about to analyze makes sense.[00:05:34] Are there any other exterior references that we can compare this to? And I do know that the first time we were participating in this concept of data QA, not having that playbook Was a problem, right? Like, well, okay. Yeah, the data is there. It’s good. It’s coming in, but you know, to really grind on that and make sure that it was reflective of the real world was an important step.[00:05:57] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So QA, I take your meaning quality assurance here? Is that right?[00:06:02] Ben Johnson: Yes. That’s the acronym quality assurance, but testing and doing QA around your data pipelines.[00:06:09] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Okay, so I get it. So actually making sure the pipelines work. And if you don’t understand what is it that you’re looking for with regard to performance, then you can end up going off in the wrong direction. Is that correct?[00:06:23] Ben Johnson: So if you were analyzing sales data, you would want to make sure that your totals reflected the financial reports. You just want to make sure that what you’ve. Accumulated in your analysis environment is reflective of the real world. There’s nothing missing. It generally makes sense. We just haven’t introduced any problem in just the organizing and collection of the data.[00:06:45] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Yeah, yeah. From my background in the insurance industry, those were all the sorts of checks that we used to have to do with the data as well.[00:06:52] Ben Johnson: Well, and oftentimes the folks that are asking these hard questions, they’re not asking the questions because they have any idea how clean the data they’ve collected. They just think there might be a chance. It’s like the dumb and dumber, you know, okay, so we think we have a chance, you know anyways awful movie reference, but they think that there might be a possibility that the answer to all of their questions or this hard decision that they need to make regularly is somewhere in that pile of stuff.[00:07:21] What we call a QA analysis Also is checking the data’s integrity if it’s even capable to solve the problem. So I think that’s a great first step and that sometimes that’s just kind of analysis for analysis sake or feels that way.[00:07:37] Dr Genevieve Hayes: One of the things you’ve touched on several times is the idea of the results oriented people and the solutions oriented people and I take it with the solutions oriented people, you’re talking about people like the data scientists. When the data scientists are talking to those results oriented people, Is there a framework that they can follow for identifying what sorts of results those results oriented people are looking for?[00:08:08] Ben Johnson: It’s very similar in the way that you approach like a UI UX design. We’ve taken kind of a storyboard approach, storyboard approach to what they want to see. Like, okay, What is the question? What are you expecting the answer to be? Like, what do you think would happen?[00:08:25] And then what kind of decisions are you going to do as a result of that? And you had some of those things as well. But kind of storyboarded out what’s the journey that they’re going to take, even if it’s just a logical journey through this data to go affect some change.[00:08:41] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So do you actually map this out on a whiteboard or with post it notes or something? So literally building a storyboard?[00:08:48] Ben Johnson: Most of the time , it’s bullets. It’s more of like written requirements. But when we think of it, we think of it , in a storyboard and often it’ll turn into like a PowerPoint deck or something because we’re also helping them with their understanding of the funding of the data science project, like connecting ROI and what they’re trying to do.[00:09:10] So yeah. Yeah, our firm isn’t just staff augmentation. We want to take a larger holistic ownership approach of the mission that we’re being attached to. So this is critical to like, okay, well, we’re going to be in a data science project together. Let’s make sure that we know what we’re trying to accomplish and what it’s for.[00:09:29] Because, you know, if you’re working on a complex project and six months in everybody forgets Why they’ve done this, like why they’re spending this money oftentimes you need to remind them and, show them where you are in the roadmap to solving those problems.[00:09:44] Dr Genevieve Hayes: With the storyboard approach, can you give me an example of that? Cause I’m still having a bit of trouble visualizing it.[00:09:51] Ben Johnson: Yeah, it’s really just a set of questions. What are you trying to accomplish? What do you expect to have happen? Where are you getting this data? It’s , just a discovery survey that we are thinking about when we’re establishing the ground rules of the particular initiative.[00:10:08] Dr Genevieve Hayes: And how do you go from that storyboard to the solution?[00:10:12] Ben Johnson: That’s a great question. So the solution will end up resolving in whatever kind of framework we’re using data bricks or whatever it’ll talk about the collection, the organization and the analysis. So we’ll break down how are we going to get this data is the data already in a place where we can start messing with it.[00:10:32] What we’re seeing is that a lot of. And I kind of going deep on the collection piece because that’s I feel like that’s like 60 percent of the work. We prefer a kind of a lake house type of environment where we’ll just leave a good portion of the data in its raw original format, analyze it.[00:10:52] Bring it into the analysis. And then, of course, we’re usually comparing that to some relational data. But all that collection, making sure we have access to all of that. And it’s in a in a methodology and pipelines that we can start to analyze it is kind of the critical first step. So we want to get our hands around that.[00:11:10] And then the organization. So is there, you know, anything we need to organize or is a little bit messy? And then what are those analysis? Like, what are those reports that are going to be needed or the visibility, the visualizations that would then be needed on top of that? And then what kind of decisions are trying to be made?[00:11:28] So that’s where the ML and the predictive analytics could come in to try to help assist with the decisions. And we find that most data projects. Follow those, centralized steps that we need to have answers for those.[00:11:43] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So a question that might need to be answered is, how much inventory should we have in a particular shop at a particular time? So that you can satisfy Christmas demand. And then you’d go and get the data about[00:11:59] Ben Johnson: Yeah. The purchase orders or yeah. Where’s the data for your purchase orders? Do you need to collect that from all your stores or do you already have that sitting in some place? Oh, yeah. It’s in all these, you know, disparate CSVs all over the place. We just did a. project for a leading hearing aid manufacturer.[00:12:18] And most of the data that they wanted to use was on a PC in the clinics. So we had to devise a collection mechanism in the software that the clinics were using to go collect all that and regularly import that into a place where We could analyze it, see if it was standardized enough to go into a warehouse or a lake.[00:12:39] And there were a lot of standardization problems, oddly, some of the clinics had kind of taken matters into their own hands and started to add custom fields and whatnot. So to rationalize all of that. So collection, I feel like is a 60 percent of the problem.[00:12:54] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So, we’ve got a framework for increasing productivity by identifying the right problem to solve, but the other half of this equation is how do you actually deliver results in a rapid fashion. because, as you know, A result today is worth far more than a result next year. What’s your advice around getting to those final results faster?[00:13:19] Ben Johnson: So That’s why I like the lake house architecture. We’re also finding new mechanisms and methodology. Some, I can’t talk about where they’re rather than taking this time to take some of the raw data and kind of continuously summarize it. So maybe you’re summarizing it and data warehousing it, but we like the raw data to stay there and just ask it the questions, but it takes more time and more processing power.[00:13:47] So what I’m seeing is we’re often taking that and organizing it into like a vector database or something that’s kind of right for the analysis. We’re also using vector databases in conjunction with AI solutions. So we’re asking the, we’re putting, we’re designing the vector database around the taxonomy, assuming that the user queries are going to match up with that taxonomy, and then using the LLM to help us make queries out of the vector database, and then passing that back to the LLM to test.[00:14:15] Talk about it to make rational sense about the story that’s being told from the data. So one way that we’re accelerating the answer is just to ask questions of the raw data and pay for the processing cost. That’s fast, and that also allows us to say, okay, do we have it?[00:14:32] Like, are we getting closer to having something that looks like the answer to your question? So we can be iterative that way, but at some point we’re starting to get some wins. In that process. And now we need to make those things more performant. And I think there’s a lot of innovation still happening in the middle of the problem.[00:14:51] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Okay, so you’re starting by questioning the raw data. Once you realize that you’re asking the right question and getting something that the results oriented people are looking for, would you then productionize this and start creating pipelines and asking questions of process data? Yeah.[00:15:11] Ben Johnson: Yeah. And we’d start figuring out how to summarize it so that the end user wasn’t waiting forever for an answer.[00:15:17] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Okay, so by starting with the raw data, you’re getting them answers sooner, but then you can make it more robust.[00:15:26] Ben Johnson: That’s right. Yes. More robust. More performant and then, of course, you could then have a wider group of users on the other side consuming that it wouldn’t just be a spreadsheet. It would be a working tool.[00:15:37] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Yeah, it’s one of the things that I was thinking about. I used to have a boss who would always say fast, cheap and good, pick two. Meaning that, you can have a solution now and it can be cheap, but it’s going to come at the cost of And it sounds like you focus on Fast and cheap first, with some sacrifice of quality because you are dealing with raw data.[00:16:00] But then, once you’ve got something locked in, you improve the quality of it, so then technical robustness doesn’t take a hit.[00:16:09] Ben Johnson: Yeah, for sure. I would actually say in the early stage, you’re probably sacrificing the cheap for good and fast because you’re trying to get data right off the logs, right off your raw data, whatever it is. And to get an answer really quickly on that without having to set up a whole lot of pipeline is fast.[00:16:28] And it’s it can be very good. It can be very powerful. We’ve seen many times where it like answers the question. You know, the question of, is that data worth? Mining further and summarizing and keeping around for a long time. So in that way, I think we addressed the ROI of it on the failures, right.[00:16:46] Being able to fail faster. Oh yeah. That data is not going to answer the question that we have. So we don’t waste all the time of what it would have been to process that.[00:16:55] Dr Genevieve Hayes: And what’s been the impact of taking this approach for the businesses and for the data scientists within your organisation who are taking this approach?[00:17:05] Ben Johnson: I think it’s the feeling of like. of partnership with us around their data where we’re taking ownership of the question and they’re giving us access to whatever they have. And there’s a feeling of partnership and the kind of like immediate value. So we’re just as curious about their business as they are.[00:17:27] And then we’re working shoulder to shoulder to help them determine the best way to answer those questions.[00:17:32] Dr Genevieve Hayes: And what’s been the change in those businesses between, before you came on board and after you came on board?[00:17:39] Ben Johnson: Well, I appreciate that question. So with many of the clients, they see that, oh, this is the value of the data. It has unlocked this realization that I, in the case of the hearing aid manufacturer that we work with, they really started finding that they could convert more clients and have a better brand relationship by having a better understanding of their data.[00:18:03] And they were really happy that they kept it. You know, 10 years worth of hearing test data around to be able to understand, their audience better and then turn that into. So they’ve seen a tremendous growth in brand awareness and that’s resulted in making a significant dent in maintaining and continuing to grow their market share.[00:18:26] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So they actually realize the true value of their data.[00:18:30] Ben Johnson: That’s right. And then they saw when they would take action on their data they were able to increase market share because they were able to affect people that truly needed to know about their brand. And like we’re seeing after a couple of years, their brand is like, you don’t think hearing aids unless you think of this brand.[00:18:48] So it’s really cool that they’ve been able to turn that data by really, Talking to the right people and sending their brand message to the right people.[00:18:56] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Yeah, because what this made me think of was one of the things I kept encountering in the early days of data science was a lot of Senior decision makers would bring in data scientists and see data science as a magic bullet. And then because the data scientists didn’t know what questions to answer, they would not be able to create the value that had been promised in the organization.[00:19:25] And the consequence after a year or two of this would be the senior decision makers would come to the conclusion that data science is just a scam. But it seems like by doing it right, you’ve managed to demonstrate to organizations such as this hearing aid manufacturer, that data science isn’t a scam and it can actually create value.[00:19:48] Ben Johnson: Absolutely. I see data sciences anytime that that loop works, right? Where you have questions. So even I have a small client, small business, he owns a glass manufacturing shop. And. The software vendor he uses doesn’t give him a inexpensive way to mark refer like who his salespeople are,[00:20:09] so he needs a kind of a salesperson dashboard. What’s really cool is that his software gives them, they get full access to a read only database. So putting a dashboard on top of. His data to answer this salesperson activities and commissions and just something like that. That’s data science.[00:20:28] And now he can monitor his business. He’s able to scale using his data. He’s able to make decisions on how many salespeople should I hire, which ones are performing, which ones are not performing. How should I pay them? That’s a lot of value to us as data scientists. It just seems like we just put a dashboard together.[00:20:46] But for that business, that’s a significant capability that they wouldn’t have otherwise had.[00:20:52] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So with all that in mind, what is the single most important change our listeners could make tomorrow? to accelerate their data science impact and results.[00:21:02] Ben Johnson: I would just say, be asking that question, Like what question am I trying to answer? What do you expect the outcome to be? Or what do you think the outcome is going to be? So that I’m not biased by that, but I’m sanity checking around that. And then what decisions are you going to make as a result?[00:21:19] I think always having that like in the front of your mind would help you be more consultative and help you work according to an intention. And I think that’s super helpful. Like don’t let the client Or the customer in your case, whether that be an internal person give you that assignment, like, just tell me what’s there.[00:21:38] Right. I just want insights. I think the have to push our leaders to give us a little more than that.[00:21:46] Dr Genevieve Hayes: the way I look at it is, don’t treat your job as though you’re someone in a restaurant who’s just taking an order from someone.[00:21:53] Ben Johnson: Sure.[00:21:54] Dr Genevieve Hayes: Look at it as though you’re a doctor who’s diagnosing a problem.[00:21:58] Ben Johnson: Yeah. And the data scientists that I worked with that have that like in their DNA, like they just can’t move forward unless they understand why they’re doing what they’re doing have been really impactful. In the organization, they just ask great questions and they quickly become an essential part of the team.[00:22:14] Dr Genevieve Hayes: So for listeners who want to get in contact with you, Ben, or to learn more about Particle 41, what can they do?[00:22:21] Ben Johnson: Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. In fact I love talking to people about data science and DevOps and software development. And so I have a book appointment link on my LinkedIn profile itself. So I’m really easy to get into a call with, and we can discuss whatever is on your mind. I also offer fractional CTO services.[00:22:42] And I would love to help you with a digital problem.[00:22:45] Dr Genevieve Hayes: And there you have it. Another value packed episode to help turn your data science skills into serious clout, cash, and career freedom. If you enjoyed this episode, why not make it a double? Next week, catch Ben’s value boost, a quick five minute episode where he shares one powerful tip for getting real results real fast.[00:23:10] Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss it. Thanks for joining me today, Ben.[00:23:16] Ben Johnson: Thank you. It was great being here. I enjoyed it[00:23:19] Dr Genevieve Hayes: And for those in the audience, thank you for listening. I’m Dr. Genevieve Hayes, and this has been value driven data science. The post Episode 54: The Hidden Productivity Killer Most Data Scientists Miss first appeared on Genevieve Hayes Consulting and is written by Dr Genevieve Hayes.

¡Hola hacedor/a!Esta semana traemos una noticia que está revolucionando el mundo de la inteligencia artificial: DeepSeek, la nueva IA china que está dando que hablar y sacudiendo los mercados bursátiles.

In this episode, we dive deep into the future of AI and human interaction with the founders of Orca Panda, Sunny and Zach. Join us as we explore how AI can make our lives more human by eliminating mundane tasks and allowing us to focus on what truly matters. From the chaos of form validation to the revolutionary potential of conversational AI, this episode is packed with insights and forward-thinking ideas.00:00 - The Tyranny of Inputs: Frustrations with Form Validation02:52 - Introduction of Guests: Sunny and Zach03:41 - Meeting at Edison House: How Sunny and Zach Met05:06 - Zach's Journey: From WeWork to New Ventures07:04 - Tech Illiteracy in Politics: Discovering Google Docs08:20 - AI and Human Interaction: Making Technology More Human09:26 - What is Orca Panda?: The Vision and Mission10:42 - Orca Panda's Origin: From Domain to Company12:19 - Pivoting to a Broader Market: Beyond Politics14:08 - Tech in Education: The Digital Literacy Test16:19 - Silicon Slope Summit: Announcement and Details18:03 - Repetition of the Tyranny of Inputs: Frustrations with Form Validation (Revisited)21:36 - Humans vs. Machines: The Struggle with Technology22:11 - AI in Education: Augmenting Good Teachers23:04 - The Death of Community: Technology's Impact on Social Spaces24:07 - Orca Panda's Vision: Simplifying Human Tasks25:04 - Practical Applications: Automating Workflows26:40 - Empowering Users: Building AI Agents28:05 - Challenges with AI: Agentic Architecture30:54 - Broader Applications: Beyond Legislative Databases33:10 - Sales Teams and CRM: Reducing Administrative Work34:27 - CSVs as Currency: The Importance of Data Exports36:20 - User Experience: Frustrations with State Forms38:05 - Early Success: Customer Stories40:02 - Raising Funds: Challenges with Local VCs41:25 - The Future of AI: Beyond Traditional Software44:45 - Paradigm Shifts: Historical Tech Innovations46:45 - Seeing the Future: Zach's Vision48:29 - Tech Trends: Cloud, Apps, and AI49:08 - Changing the Way People Work: Orca Panda's Impact50:03 - The Bright Future: Gen Z and TechnologyIf you enjoyed this video and want to support us please leave a LIKE, write a comment on this video and Share it with your friends. Subscribe to our channel on YouTube and click the icon for notifications when we add a new video. Let us know in the comments if you have any questions. Our website: https://www.siliconslopes.comShow Links: https://www.philo.venturesSocial:Twitter - https://twitter.com/siliconslopesInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/siliconslopes/LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/silicon-slopes/YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8aEtQ1KJrWhJ3C2JnzXysw

I'd write more here, but I've got places to be. Becky, Jeremy, and I are going to engage in some holiday festivities. We have a couple gingerbread houses to make and a tree to trim. And no nog to speak of. Really, that's all you get by way of show notes this time as a result, deal with it. Send your complaints to podcast@searls.co and they will be read on air. Some bullet points below the fold: My 90-minute, outdated guide to setting up a Mac Aaron's puns, ranked Jim Carrey is 62 and can't even retire I bought my 8 year old a switch and didn't realize how much games cost Teen creates memecoin, dumps it, earns $50,000 Startup will brick $800 emotional support robot for kids without refunds Install the Mozi app (manifesto here | app here) Vision Pro getting PSVR2 controllers The 2024 Game Awards news roundup Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet looks badass, but is it too inclusive for The Gamers? We don't talk about Luigi An invisible desktop app for cheating on technical interviews (HN comments) Sora is out, but it's not good yet Indiana Jones and the Great Circle is out, and it is good yet Emudeck is so great it shouldn't be legal, and some people probably think it isn't Pikmin Stay tuned to my YouTube channel for upcoming LIVE streams Transcript: [00:00:00] Thank you. [00:00:29] Good morning, internet. [00:00:32] I started speaking before I realized, as an asynchronous audio production, it's actually pretty unlikely that it's the morning where you are. [00:00:43] Although, if it is the morning, coincidentally, please feel free to be creeped out, check over your shoulder. [00:00:51] Today was, I woke up with Vim and Vigor this morning, super excited to take on the day, thinking maybe I've got what it takes to record an audio production today. [00:01:07] And then we have an elderly coffee pot. [00:01:11] I don't want to completely put the blame on it because we were using it wrong for several years. [00:01:24] And it's a long story that I will shorten to say, any piece of consumer electronics or appliances in America, the half-life keeps decreasing. [00:01:37] And so when I say elderly coffee pot, I mean that we bought this coffee pot post-COVID. [00:01:42] And it's already feeling like, oh, we should probably get a new coffee pot, huh? [00:01:45] What happens is, from time to time, heat will build up in the grounds dingus. [00:01:55] I'm just realizing now that I'm like, you know, I'm not a coffee engineer. [00:01:58] Some of you are. [00:02:00] But, you know, of course, we all know that the dingus is connected to the water spigot, which is above the craft. [00:02:09] And what happens, as far as I can tell, is once in a while, you get all that hot water and grounds swirling around. [00:02:20] And if it clogs at all, like if it doesn't release just so, the whole little undercarriage, again, this is a technical term, just stay with me. [00:02:30] And we'll pop forward like three millimeters, which is just enough for the water to kind of miss its target on the craft and then spray all who's he what's it's, as well as for the spigot to start just kind of like splurring, you know, this water coffee slurry everywhere. [00:02:49] And so I went after, you know, but then you still get the triumphant ding dong sound that the coffee is ready. [00:02:56] So I walked over to the coffee expecting like, yes, it's the best, best way to start my day or whatever. [00:03:06] Pull out the coffee. [00:03:07] And the pot is too light. [00:03:10] And I had a familiarity of like what that means. [00:03:13] It means like there is water somewhere. [00:03:17] And it's not in this pot. [00:03:19] And so it's just like, you know, this big, big machine we actually have we've put because of our Mr. [00:03:26] Coffee's, you know, elderly onset incontinence. [00:03:33] We have we have put the entire coffee pot on a tray, like a rimmed silicone tray that you would use for like, I guess, a dog feeding bowl, right? [00:03:45] A dog, you know, messily eats food and slaps water around and stuff. [00:03:49] And you don't want it all over your hardwood. [00:03:50] Like you'd put this underneath that and it would catch some of the water. [00:03:53] So we I spent the first 30 minutes of my waking life today getting my hopes up that I was going to have coffee, followed by, you know, painstakingly carrying this entire cradle of of of coffee pot full of hot brown liquid. [00:04:10] That would stay in all of my clothes and, you know, get on the cabinets and stuff with a silicone underbelly thing. [00:04:18] And just kind of like, you know, we've got one of those big we're very fortunate to have one of those big farmers, farmer house, farmhouse. [00:04:25] I never know what to call it. [00:04:27] Steel, basically a double wide sink. [00:04:30] So what's nice about a double wide sink is that if you've got a problem in your kitchen and you're only a few steps away, whether it's the coffee pot part of the kitchen or the fridge or the freezer or the God forbid, the range or the oven, you can just sort of strategically hurl whatever it is you're holding just about into the into the sink. [00:04:51] And then once it hits the sink, it's, you know, the the the potential damage is limited. [00:04:57] So I gently hurled my coffee apparatus. [00:05:02] Is that the plural of apparatus? [00:05:04] One wonders into the into the into the sink and then spent the next 20 minutes, you know, scrubbing them and all to make another pot. [00:05:13] And Becky, of course, walks down the minute that the second pot is about to be finished. [00:05:18] And I'm like, I've already seen some shit and I'm going to go record a podcast now. [00:05:22] And that swallow you just heard was me having a sip of coffee that was not disgusting, but not great. [00:05:31] But I'll take it over where I was an hour ago. [00:05:39] Thank you for for subscribing as a as a true believer in breaking change. [00:05:47] We're coming up on one year now. [00:05:49] It's hard to believe that it's already been a year, not because this has been a lot of work or a big accomplishment, but just because the the the agony of existence seems to accelerate as you get older. [00:06:03] It's one of the few kindnesses in life and so as we whipsaw around the sun yet again, we're about to do that. [00:06:11] This is the 26th edition version 26 of the podcast. [00:06:17] I've got two names here to release titles and I haven't picked one yet. [00:06:22] So as a special. [00:06:24] Nearing the end of the year treat. [00:06:29] I'm going to pitch them both to you now, right? [00:06:31] So so we're in this together. [00:06:33] I like to think this is a highly collaborative one person show. [00:06:37] Version 26 rich nanotexture. [00:06:42] And that's a nod to the MacBook Pro has a nanotexture anti-glare screen coding option. [00:06:52] It's a reference to the rich Corinthian leather that was actually it's a Chrysler reference. [00:06:58] It's a made up thing. [00:06:59] There is no such thing as Corinthian leather, but like that's what they called their their seating. [00:07:03] And Steve Jobs referenced that as being the inspiration for I think it was the iPad calendar app. [00:07:13] With the rich Corinthian leather up at the top during the era of skeuomorphic designs back in 2010, 2009, maybe I can't remember exactly when they I think it's 2010 when he had his famous actually leather chair demonstration of the iPad. [00:07:28] Maybe the reason that that stood out to me was the car reference because it is it is an upsell. [00:07:34] The nanotexture $150 if you want to have a don't call it matte finish. [00:07:41] The other one, so that's option one, rich nanotexture. [00:07:46] And I didn't love it because I couldn't get texture. [00:07:49] I couldn't get the same Corinthian, right? [00:07:53] Like you want that bite, the multisyllabic bite that adds the extra, you know, the gravitas of a luxury good. [00:08:04] Yeah, texture just didn't have it for me. [00:08:06] But then if you change that word, it doesn't make sense. [00:08:08] So I mean, the other option two that came to mind version 26 don't don't by the way, don't think I'm going to edit this in post and fix it. [00:08:19] I will not. [00:08:20] I will ultimately land on one of these and that will be the title that you saw on your podcast player. [00:08:25] Or maybe some third thing will come to mind and then this conversation will be moot. [00:08:29] I do not think of this collaborative exercise. [00:08:32] Just imagine it's a it's a it's a quantum collaboration. [00:08:37] So by observing it, that's you actually took part. [00:08:41] You opened your podcast player and then the yeah, the entangled, you know, bits just they coalesced around one of these two names or some third name. [00:08:58] It's all just statistics version 26 Luigi's Mansion, which is a nod to two things at once. [00:09:05] I'm going to talk a little bit about GameCube, but also I'll probably not escape mentioning Luigi Manjoni Manjoni man. [00:09:15] You know, I haven't been watching the news. [00:09:17] I don't know how to pronounce his name, but it looks enough like mansion that I was like, oh, man. [00:09:21] I bet you there's a Nintendo PR guy whose day just got fucking ruined by the fella who is a overnight folk hero. [00:09:30] More attractive than most assassins, I would say. [00:09:35] Great hair. [00:09:36] Good skin. [00:09:37] Apparently, skincare Reddit is all about this fella who murdered in cold blood the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. [00:09:45] If you haven't caught the news, if you're even less online than I am. [00:09:51] And yeah, so I'm trying to decide. [00:09:53] I think Luigi's Mansion is probably going to win. [00:09:56] It's more timely. [00:09:57] It's the first time the name Luigi has come up in the last year. [00:10:00] And I may have mentioned nanotexture before when discussing Apple's very compromised studio display. [00:10:11] So I'm leaning Luigi's Mansion, but, you know, don't tempt me. [00:10:15] I might switch. [00:10:18] I'm going to just keep drinking coffee because I got to power through this. [00:10:21] Let's talk about some life stuff. [00:10:24] I so when we last talked that way back in the heady days of version 25, I had just gotten off a plane from Japan. [00:10:34] I was still a little bit jet lagged. [00:10:36] I recorded later in the evening. [00:10:38] I was tired. [00:10:39] You know, I was still overcoming. [00:10:41] I listened to the episode, realized I was overcoming a cold. [00:10:44] You know, then Becky shortly thereafter, after recording, she developed a pretty bad cough. [00:10:51] And so we've both been sleeping relatively poorly. [00:10:53] And I can't complain about this cough because her having a cough for four nights is nothing like me snoring on and off for over a year. [00:11:02] And I think the fact that her cough is consistent is actually a kindness compared to the sporadic nature of my snoring, where it's like I might go a week without it. [00:11:11] And then all of a sudden there's like, bam. [00:11:14] So she doesn't, you know, it's like sneaks up on her and that's not fair. [00:11:17] So so she's got a cough and I haven't been sleeping particularly well. [00:11:20] Maybe that's it. [00:11:22] I also, you know, I wanted to dry out because I was living on shoe highs, you know, canned cocktails in Japan for way too long. [00:11:30] Just drinking, you know, five whole dollars of alcohol every day, which is an irresponsible amount of alcohol. [00:11:36] It turns out. [00:11:40] Yeah, that's one nice thing about living in Orlando and theme park Orlando is that the average price of a cocktail here is seriously $20. [00:11:49] I think it is. [00:11:51] I am delighted and surprised when I find a cocktail under $20. [00:11:55] That's any good. [00:11:55] In fact, the four seasons right around the corner, their lobby bar has a some of the best bartenders in the state of Florida. [00:12:05] Like they went all kinds of awards. [00:12:06] And so when you say a lobby bar, you think it sucks. [00:12:09] But it's actually it's like it's a it's a restaurant with a room if you're ever around and they still do a happy hour with like $4. [00:12:18] It was $4 beers. [00:12:19] I think they finally increased to $5 beers draft beer. [00:12:23] And it's all craft. [00:12:25] You know, it's all fancy people stuff. [00:12:27] And they do it's I think it's $10 margaritas, French 75s, and they got some other happy hour cocktail. [00:12:37] It was highballs for a while. [00:12:39] Whiskey highballs was like probably centauri toki or something. [00:12:43] I gotta say like that $10 margarita. [00:12:47] They'll throw some jalapeno in there if you want some tahini rim, you know, they do it up. [00:12:52] They do it well. [00:12:54] But that might be the cheapest cocktail I've had in all of Orlando is at the Four Seasons. [00:13:01] Famous for that TikTok meme of the Four Seasons baby, if you're a TikTok person. [00:13:06] Anyway, all that all all this drinking talk back to the point. [00:13:11] I've been not drinking for a week. [00:13:12] And I, you know, I'm back to tracking my nutrients every day. [00:13:17] The things that I consume and adding up all of the protein and carbohydrate and realizing [00:13:21] if you don't drink, it's actually really easy to blow past one's protein goals. [00:13:25] And so I had one day where I had like 240 grams of protein, which is [00:13:28] enough protein that you'll feel it the next morning if you're not used to it. [00:13:34] And I still was losing weight. [00:13:38] I lost like five or six pounds in the last week. [00:13:43] And to the point where it was like, you know, I was feeling a little lightheaded, [00:13:47] a little bit woozy because I wasn't drinking enough is the takeaway. [00:13:52] So so thank God we got to go to a Christmas party last night. [00:13:57] It was it was great Gatsby themed. [00:13:58] And I dressed up like a man who wanted to do the bare minimum to not get made fun of at the party. [00:14:05] So I had some some suspenders on instead of a belt, which was the first time I ever put on suspenders. [00:14:13] They were not period appropriate suspenders simply because they had the, you know, the [00:14:18] little class B dues instead of how they had some other system for I don't I don't fucking know. [00:14:25] Like I, I had chat GPT basically helped me through this. [00:14:28] And it's like, hey, you want these kinds of suspenders? [00:14:30] I'm like, that sounds like an ordeal. [00:14:31] How about I just get some universal one size fits all fit and clip them in? [00:14:36] I also had a clip on bow tie. [00:14:37] So that worked. [00:14:39] When you think clip on bow tie, I guess I'd never used one before, but like it, I always [00:14:45] assumed it would just be like, you know, like a barrette clip that would go in front of the [00:14:49] front button and look silly for that reason. [00:14:51] And maybe that's how they used to be. [00:14:53] But it seems these days, if you want to spend $3 on a fancy clip on bow tie with a nice texturing, [00:14:58] I'll say, uh, it's just pre it's a pre tied bow with a still wraps around your neck. [00:15:04] It's just, it has a class mechanism, which seems smart to me, right? [00:15:08] I don't know what. [00:15:09] Look, if you're really into men's fashion, uh, there's this weird intersection or this tension [00:15:19] between I'm a manly man who, who ties my own shoes and, you know, kills my own dinner and [00:15:25] stuff. [00:15:25] And I, I, for fuck's sake, tie my own bow tie from scratch every day. [00:15:29] Right? [00:15:29] Like there's a toxically masculine approach to bow ties, but at the same time, it is such [00:15:35] a foofy accoutrement. [00:15:37] It's like an ascot, um, that the idea of like a manly man, like a man trying to demonstrate [00:15:43] his manliness by the fact that he doesn't use a clip on bow tie, uh, came to mind yesterday [00:15:50] when I was, uh, struggling even with the clasping kind. [00:15:54] I was like, man, I wish I could just get this to anyway. [00:15:58] Um, I had a vest at a gray vest. [00:16:03] This is all brand new territory for me. [00:16:05] Uh, yeah, I, I've, I've leaned pretty hard into the t-shirt and shorts and or jeans life [00:16:10] for so long. [00:16:12] Uh, the, the fella in front of us when we, when we were checking in, cause they took little [00:16:16] photos of you, uh, all of the women had the same exact flapper dress from Amazon, you know, [00:16:22] with the, the, the, the hairband thing with the, you know, fake, the polyester peacock tail. [00:16:28] Becky's looked the best. [00:16:29] I'm not gonna, I'm not even lying. [00:16:32] Uh, uh, her dress actually fit. [00:16:35] He had some, uh, very ill fitting flapper costumes that these women couldn't even move in. [00:16:40] Um, it was interesting. [00:16:42] Uh, but the, the fella in front of us at check-in was wearing a, a, a full blown, you know, tuxedo [00:16:48] get up that he brought from home. [00:16:50] And he was talking about, Oh yeah, well he's got two of them and his wife, you know, ribbed [00:16:54] him a little bit that he could only fit in one. [00:16:55] I was like, man, owning a tuxedo, that's nuts. [00:16:58] Like, and then it like turns out he's like got all these suits and these fancy clothes and [00:17:02] he's an older gentleman. [00:17:05] Uh, but my entire career only the first few years did I have to think about what I was [00:17:10] wearing and, and it never really got beyond pleated, you know, khakis and a starched shirt. [00:17:18] And, and I had, I had to wear a suit maybe on two sales calls. [00:17:22] Um, and they were always the sales calls that were just, uh, there were certain sales demos [00:17:30] when I was a, a, a baby consultant, these really complex bids. [00:17:39] I remember we were at cook County once, uh, uh, the, the county that wraps Chicago and it [00:17:44] has a lot of functions and facilities that operate at the county level. [00:17:48] So, but of course we're in Chicago in some, you know, uh, dystopian office building. [00:17:54] That's very Gothic, I should say. [00:17:57] And the, the solution that we were selling was a response to a bid around some kind of [00:18:05] document, electronic document ingestion and, and, and routing solution. [00:18:09] And so what, what that meant was it was like a 12 person team. [00:18:14] It was a big project working on this pitch. [00:18:18] And most of the work and most of the money came from the software side at the end of the [00:18:23] process. [00:18:23] It's like, you're going to get IBM file net and you're going to get all these different, [00:18:26] uh, enterprise tools. [00:18:28] And we're going to integrate, uh, with all your systems and, and build these custom integrations [00:18:32] that you've asked for here and here and here. [00:18:33] But the, the, the hard part is the human logistics of how do you get all of their paper documents [00:18:41] into the system. [00:18:42] Uh, and that was my job was I had to get paper and then scan it, uh, with a production, big [00:18:50] Kodak funkin fucking scanner. [00:18:52] Uh, and then use, what was it? [00:18:54] Kofax capture or something like a, like an OCR tool of the era. [00:18:59] And the thing about it is that scanning is not, was not ever a science and neither is [00:19:07] OCR, the OCR stuff and OCR stands for optical character recognition. [00:19:10] So you'd have a form and you'd write on the form, like, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, some, [00:19:15] some demo address and name and all this. [00:19:19] I spent. [00:19:22] So like the people doing the software, like they, they could just like click a button and [00:19:26] like, they could even just use fakery, right? [00:19:29] Like, Oh, the API is not really there, but I'll always return this particular, like, let's [00:19:33] call it an XML soap message. [00:19:34] And so the, the software guys clocked in, clocked out, got back to their billable work. [00:19:39] I, because the stakes were so high in this particular, uh, and I'm here right now explaining [00:19:46] all of this nonsense because I had to wear a suit and that was also really bad, but I [00:19:51] was in Chicago late at night with a group of like, at that point it was like 9 PM and it [00:19:54] was just me and two partners. [00:19:56] Cause the partners had a sickness called avoid family, stay at work. [00:20:02] And, uh, I, I was just running over and over and over again where I'd like, you know, [00:20:09] I'd take the paper, I'd put it through the scanner and it would get 90% of the OCR stuff [00:20:13] done, or I'd get it perfect. [00:20:15] And it would scan everything just right, which would result in the downstream, you know, after [00:20:21] the capture, like all of my integrations, like would route it to the right thing. [00:20:24] So that like, it was basically a game of mousetrap or dominoes where like my task was both [00:20:29] the most important to being able to demonstrate, but also the most error prone, but also the [00:20:37] least, uh, financially like, um, valuable to, to our services company. [00:20:42] And so I had no support, uh, on top of that, they, the, our fucking it people pushed out some [00:20:49] kind of, um, you know, involuntary security update security and bunny quotes that, that [00:20:57] slowed my system down dramatically in the course of just like a day. [00:21:01] And I had, I had no way to test for this. [00:21:04] So I remember I was up at like 11 PM at that point, trying to make this work consistently [00:21:10] and realizing that the only way to get it to run it all required me to, um, install a virtual [00:21:16] machine, put windows in the virtual machine, install all this software inside that virtual [00:21:22] machine, and then run it there because only in the black box of an encrypted virtual machine [00:21:27] image or, uh, you know, a virtual machine, like disc image, could I evade all of the accountant [00:21:33] bullshit that was trying to track and encrypt and, and, and muck with files and flight and [00:21:38] so forth. [00:21:39] And so it was only around like probably one 30 or two that I got to bed and our, our demo [00:21:46] was like at seven in the morning and I had to wear a suit. [00:21:47] So if you ever wonder, Hey, why is Justin always just in a, a t-shirt and shorts? [00:21:54] Uh, I would say childhood trauma, fuck suits. [00:21:59] The only, the only time I associate like nice clothes, you know, having a lot of [00:22:03] having to dress up is church shit. [00:22:05] I didn't want to go to. [00:22:06] And usually it's like the worst church shit. [00:22:09] Like there's some cool church shit out there, you know, youth group where everyone's a horny, [00:22:14] right. [00:22:15] And singing pop songs to try to get people in. [00:22:17] That's as church shit goes, that's above average. [00:22:21] But when you're talking about like, Hey, you know, this aunt you've never heard of died and [00:22:27] we got to go all the way to goddamn Dearborn to sit in a Catholic mass, that's going to [00:22:32] be in Latin. [00:22:33] And they're going to, you know, one of those, you know, you should feel bad for him because [00:22:39] he's abused. [00:22:39] But one of the altar boys, he's going to be waving that little like incense thingy, [00:22:43] the jigger back and forth and back and forth like a metronome. [00:22:46] And, uh, you're going to get all this soot in your face, all of that, you know, frankincense [00:22:51] and myrrh and whatever the fuck they burn. [00:22:52] And, uh, yeah, then they're going to play some songs, but they're not going to be songs you [00:22:57] want to hear. [00:22:57] And you're going to be uncomfortable because I bought you this suit at JC Penny when you [00:23:01] were like nine and you're 12, you're 12 now, and you've gained a lot of weight, but [00:23:06] here we are. [00:23:07] And then you got to go and, you know, like, don't worry because after the service, there's [00:23:12] a big meal, but it's mostly just going to be, you know, styrofoam plates and plastic forks [00:23:16] and, uh, cold rubbery chicken. [00:23:19] And then a whole lot of family members who want to pinch your cheeks, uh, had an aunt that [00:23:24] always wanted to, um, put on a bunch of red lipstick and kiss me and leave kiss marks. [00:23:30] And she thought that was adorable and everyone else thought it was funny. [00:23:33] And for whatever reason, I wasn't a fan, uh, that's the kind of, uh, yeah, so anyway, moving [00:23:45] right along the, uh, the, the other than having to dress up, the, the Christmas party was really [00:23:50] nice because it had an all you can drink martini bar. [00:23:52] So that, that helped that took the edge off a little bit since I hadn't been drinking for [00:23:57] the previous week. [00:23:57] Uh, and it was, you know, uh, they, they had a great bartender, the, the, I assume that [00:24:07] that people drank gin martinis back in the day of Gatsby, but it seemed to be a vodka forward [00:24:12] martini bar, which I appreciated. [00:24:15] Uh, as I get older and my taste buds start dying, uh, I found myself going from dry martinis [00:24:23] to martinis with an olive to martinis with two olives to me asking for like a little bit of [00:24:30] olive juice and then drinking the martini and realizing that wasn't quite enough olive juice. [00:24:34] So that's just disgusting, but, um, it's where, uh, it's one of the signs of age, I guess. [00:24:43] Uh, so the martini bar was good. [00:24:46] Uh, they also had an aged old fashion that they'd made, you know, homemade, um, with like nutmeg [00:24:51] and cinnamon in there. [00:24:52] That was impressive. [00:24:53] Uh, so yeah, had a, had a big old Christmas party last night, had a couple of drinks, uh, [00:25:00] and, and, uh, because of the contrast, whenever I go, you know, go a week without any alcohol [00:25:06] and then I have some alcohol and then I wake up the next morning and I'm like, oh yes, I [00:25:11] know what people mean now that alcohol is poison. [00:25:13] And it's a mildly poisonous thing because I feel mildly poisoned. [00:25:19] Um, and, and I just usually feel that most days until I forget about it. [00:25:23] So it's a data point, uh, to think about, uh, uh, I, I, I had a good, good run for, [00:25:30] for a while there, just cause like when you live in a fucking theme park and there's nowadays [00:25:34] alcohol everywhere that I go and every outing, I had a good run for a few months. [00:25:40] Um, not last year, the year before where I just didn't drink at home as a rule to myself. [00:25:46] I was like, you know, I'm not going to pour any liquor for myself at home unless I'm entertaining [00:25:49] guests. [00:25:50] And, uh, even then go easy on it because I I'm, I'm, I'm going to just the background radiation [00:25:56] of existence in when you live in a bunch of resorts. [00:25:59] Uh, I'll, I'll get, I'll get, I'll get plenty of alcohol subcutaneously. [00:26:05] Um, a contact tie. [00:26:07] So maybe I'll, maybe I'll try that again. [00:26:10] I don't know. [00:26:11] It's the stuff you think about in mid December when you're just inundated with specialty food [00:26:17] and drink options, uh, do other life stuff that isn't alcohol or religion or clothing [00:26:27] related. [00:26:28] Oh, uh, uh, I've been on a quest to not necessarily save a bunch of money, not necessarily. [00:26:35] Uh, I was going to say, uh, tighten my belt, but, uh, I don't know what the suspender equivalent [00:26:43] is because I did not wear a belt last night. [00:26:45] I just wore suspenders. [00:26:46] Uh, I've been interested in, in not budgeting either. [00:26:52] Just, I think awareness. [00:26:54] Like I want, I know that a lot of money flies through my pockets every month in the form of, [00:27:01] um, SAS software subscriptions and streaming services. [00:27:05] I mentioned this last, uh, last go round that I was recommending, Hey, let's say, go take a [00:27:11] look at like our unused streaming subscriptions of those. [00:27:14] Uh, yesterday I did cancel max. [00:27:16] Cause I realized that, uh, if I'm not watching a lot of news, I'm not going to watch John Oliver [00:27:20] and, and they frankly, a lot of HBO's prestige shows haven't been besides they cut a Sesame [00:27:28] street and it just so happened that I canceled that day. [00:27:31] So maybe there's a, some data engineer at HBO who's like, Oh man, people are canceling because [00:27:37] we got rid of Sesame street. [00:27:38] Uh, that would be good. [00:27:40] That would be good for America to get that feedback. [00:27:43] Uh, yeah. [00:27:44] I just want awareness of like, where's the money going and in what proportion and does that sound [00:27:50] right to me? [00:27:50] Uh, and I've, there are software tools for this. [00:27:53] Uh, they are all compromised in some way. [00:27:57] For example, we just, uh, we'd used lunch money in the past, which is a cool app. [00:28:02] And it has the kind of, you know, basic integrations you would expect. [00:28:06] I don't know if it uses plaid or whatever behind the covers, but like you, you connect your, your, [00:28:11] your checking accounts, your credit card accounts. [00:28:14] It lists all your transactions is very, um, customizable in terms of rules that you can [00:28:21] set. [00:28:21] It has an API. [00:28:22] Jen is a solo co-founder and she seems really, really competent and lovely and responsive, [00:28:27] which are all great things. [00:28:29] But the UI is a little clunky for me. [00:28:32] I don't like how it handled URLs. [00:28:33] It was like, once you got all the transactions in there and, and set up, it didn't feel informative [00:28:41] because there wasn't like a good reporting or graphs that just kind of at a glance would [00:28:45] tell you, this is where your money's going. [00:28:46] At least for me. [00:28:47] Uh, additionally, like it, it can't do the Apple card. [00:28:51] That's the, that's become the crux for a lot of these services is that, um, Apple card [00:28:55] only added support for reading. [00:28:59] Uh, well now you can read, uh, uh, so I, Apple added away on iOS and specifically iPhone [00:29:07] OS to read, uh, transactions from Apple card, Apple savings and Apple cash. [00:29:14] And this was like nine months ago, if that, but copilot, uh, money is one of two apps maybe [00:29:22] that supports this. [00:29:23] And so if you, if you have, we have, we each have an Apple card and we use it for kind of [00:29:29] our silly stuff whenever we're, you know, using a tap to pay. [00:29:33] So, so if, if you want to track transactions and you don't want to manually export CSVs [00:29:40] from your wife's phone every 30 days, which is the process that I'd fallen into with, with [00:29:44] lunch money, then you, you basically have copilot money. [00:29:50] And then there's another one, maybe Monarch, uh, the copilot money. [00:29:53] People are always talking about this other app called Monarch. [00:29:55] I haven't checked it out. [00:29:55] I don't know if that's why they like it or if it's just the other one that's being developed [00:29:59] right now in this post mint apocalypse, as we all grapple with the fact that mint was [00:30:04] always bad, uh, but people got into it and I don't copilot money is like nice, but like [00:30:11] it, like, for example, like if I'm, uh, if I buy a, uh, if I put $10, the equivalent of [00:30:19] $10, so 1000 yen on my Starbucks card in Japan, which is totally separate because of course it [00:30:25] is there's two Starbucks cards. [00:30:27] There's the one in Japan and then the one in the rest of the world. [00:30:30] So you open the Japanese only app, you put a thousand yen on it. [00:30:33] Uh, you pay for that with Apple pay. [00:30:36] So which goes to my Apple card and copilot money will read that transaction. [00:30:40] But if you read like the text in the merchant description, it's literally like [00:30:44] staba day and it's like all no spaces. [00:30:47] It's just like 40 characters in a row to, and if you really squint, you can kind of see [00:30:52] Starbucks, Japan, um, you know, app store payment, which is, you know, like I want to [00:31:00] change that to Starbucks, Japan, and then set up a rule to just like always change that. [00:31:05] So I don't have to like memorize these random ass merchant names. [00:31:08] Uh, apparently like after, after two hours of setting up copilot money yesterday, I realized [00:31:13] that there's like both no way to set up that kind of rule. [00:31:16] The only rule that it supports is categorization of, of spending fine, but then if you set [00:31:22] up a rule and you don't like it, there's no way to edit the rules cause there's no UI for [00:31:25] rule editing. [00:31:26] And so then, you know, where do you go, but read it and you're like, okay, well there's [00:31:30] a subreddit. [00:31:30] And then like, what's half the post in the subreddit? [00:31:32] It's about, Oh, of course it's a bunch of dads who are like, I can't see my rules and I have [00:31:36] to contact support. [00:31:37] And it's been nine months. [00:31:38] And I was like, Oh God. [00:31:39] So that's, uh, if anyone's got any great budgeting software that supports Apple card, you let me [00:31:46] know. [00:31:47] Uh, and also isn't a part-time job. [00:31:50] I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna spend all day on this. [00:31:52] I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna check in on this, uh, the four times a year that I, that [00:31:58] I wake up in a cold sweat wondering, Oh my God, how many subscriptions do I have? [00:32:02] Which is, uh, I, I really missed my calling by not being a dad, I guess. [00:32:07] But it did land me on looking at rocket money. [00:32:11] Uh, so, so, so there was an app called true bill that marketed heavily with like a lot of [00:32:19] other DTC apps where the pitch was, we will negotiate your bills for you. [00:32:26] And by bills, I think that one of the reasons why this, this, this business probably struggled [00:32:31] is that there's really only two that they could reasonably negotiate on your behalf. [00:32:37] You know, you, you imagine they've got a call center or they've got people who've, who [00:32:40] are trained, who have scripts that they follow, who, who will doggedly keep calling back until [00:32:44] they get what, you know, the discount, the, just the steps that you would have to go through [00:32:48] if you wanted to call Comcast or Verizon, they, they, they, they can basically could basically [00:32:57] only really negotiate your ISP and your cell phone carrier. [00:33:01] Cause those are the two sort of, you know, that are, that are transactional enough that [00:33:08] are regionalized or nationalized enough that they, that they could train on. [00:33:11] And then of course, like they, they're the ones that like get you in with a teaser rate and [00:33:15] then gradually turn up the heat over the course of a couple of years. [00:33:19] Well, Quicken Loans bought, they rebranded as rocket and then rocket fill in the blank [00:33:26] with other products. [00:33:26] And they bought true bill around the same time. [00:33:29] And I, my understanding from a distance is that true bill, uh, uh, that became rocket money [00:33:36] in order to be an entree into other rocket star services. [00:33:41] So like you, you now, when you install rocket money, it's still got the negotiation thing. [00:33:46] Cause that's what they market it on, but you have to slog through so much like, no, I'm actually [00:33:52] all set with credit and, and, and, and debt repayment services. [00:33:57] And I'm, I'm already all set with financial advisors and retirement goals. [00:34:00] I just get me to the, to the thing where I can pay you 35% of whatever you save me on [00:34:06] my ISP bill. [00:34:07] And so of course, you know, like I, I, I signed up for the first time, went through the app [00:34:12] onboarding. [00:34:13] I was not impressed with the bugginess of the app, but I was able to soldier on through [00:34:19] it. [00:34:19] And where I landed was I was, uh, following its little setup wizard for first. [00:34:27] Spectrum, which is my internet provider. [00:34:28] And I was, I'd initially paid a hundred dollars when I moved here in 2021, uh, a month for, [00:34:36] for one gig down, call it 30 megabits per second up. [00:34:40] And I can't get a, another ISP here. [00:34:43] They had an exclusive agreement. [00:34:44] They're building neighborhoods bullshit. [00:34:47] Uh, and I, I, so I can't get higher upstream and that really gets in my crawl. [00:34:53] Nevertheless, they have increased prices about $15 a year. [00:34:59] Each time I'm here to the point now where I think my monthly, you know, debit is like $150, [00:35:05] $145 and you fill it out and you give them your pin number. [00:35:11] You got this customer pin that like, you know, is secures your account. [00:35:14] I'm like, eh, all right, well, that's four digits, you know? [00:35:17] And besides I'm already on like this one dead simple plan. [00:35:20] It's just their normal plan. [00:35:22] And it's, you know, like I'm paying top dollar for it. [00:35:26] So what's the worst that they could do if they, if somebody else were to call and change [00:35:30] my plan up, you know, like it, it wouldn't cause that much lasting damage. [00:35:34] Cause it's not like I'm on some teaser rate. [00:35:36] It's not like I've got a great deal as it is. [00:35:38] So I let them do it. [00:35:39] And three days later, I had low expectations, right? [00:35:42] Cause you go on Reddit, speaking of Reddit, you go on and you, you search other people's [00:35:46] experiences and people will say, oh yeah, well like the, you know, I, some of them are [00:35:52] pretty hyperbolic. [00:35:53] It's like, you know, like they, they changed my plan to this and now I'm stuck with this, [00:35:57] you know, TV subscription for the next four years. [00:35:59] And then they charged me a thousand dollars in imagined savings that never materialized. [00:36:03] I'm like, shit. [00:36:04] All right. [00:36:04] Well, that's, that's not good. [00:36:06] But I, I gave them a shot. [00:36:08] They came back three days later and they said, congratulations. [00:36:12] We saved you $859. [00:36:14] I was like, what the, excuse me over the next 12 months. [00:36:18] And it turned out that they got me from $142, $145 down to 70 flat. [00:36:25] You multiply that by 12 and then indeed comes out to eight something. [00:36:28] And I was like, damn. [00:36:29] All right. [00:36:30] And so I've been, I've been looking for the other shoe to drop like ever since, like something [00:36:36] is fishy here. [00:36:37] Like I, they didn't sign me up for other services. [00:36:39] I did receive, I'm looking over at it now. [00:36:43] I did receive a relatively large box that has a, you know, one of those wifi modem router [00:36:50] combo units in it. [00:36:51] That was partly like apparently part of the deal. [00:36:54] I don't know if they canceled my service and then in one fell swoop also signed me up for [00:36:58] service. [00:36:58] But now I've got this gigantic fucking wifi thing that wouldn't even fit in my patch box [00:37:02] if I wanted it, which I don't. [00:37:04] So I'm, I'm, I'm currently in this ether of like, well, if my modem that I rent is still [00:37:11] going to work, I rent for $0. [00:37:14] It's one nice thing about spectrum. [00:37:15] If my modem that I rent is still going to work, uh, maybe I can just keep this wifi thing in [00:37:20] the box and not call anyone. [00:37:22] And maybe everything will keep working and I'll pay the $70 a month, or maybe I should send [00:37:27] the other one back, but then that might trigger some other thing. [00:37:30] Right. [00:37:30] I, so look like, do I recommend the service? [00:37:36] I don't really, I don't, we'll see. [00:37:38] Right. [00:37:39] Like call me in a year. [00:37:40] I should set a reminder. [00:37:41] Oh, I'm sure if something bad happens, I'll, I'll be right on the airwaves screaming about [00:37:47] it. [00:37:47] Like I, like I do, but even after this experience, saving me a lot of money, like what I trust [00:37:53] them with my T-Mobile account, right. [00:37:54] Where I have been grandfathered in on what was called the one choice plus plan in 2014 [00:38:01] or whatever. [00:38:02] And it's genuine, honest to God, unlimited data without any real throttling. [00:38:08] As far as I can tell, until you get to some absurdly high number where you can watch your [00:38:12] videos in HD on your, you know, like, like it's, it's, it's a good one. [00:38:16] It's better than their magenta crap. [00:38:18] Um, and a lower price than their magenta max thing. [00:38:21] Well, we got three lines. [00:38:22] You got, you know, the watches and I would love to pay less for that, but I just don't [00:38:27] try like you, you, you fill out the rocket money form, uh, with the, uh, the, the, it wants [00:38:34] your T-Mobile, like login information. [00:38:36] And that's, that was a bridge too far for me. [00:38:40] I got there and I was like, you know, I could just imagine this going poorly. [00:38:44] You know, these plans are so complicated and feels like even when I call T-Mobile and I [00:38:48] ask, Hey, how's the weather? [00:38:49] Like they click a button and it fucks up my shit for two weeks. [00:38:52] So I'm, I'm, I'm good. [00:38:55] I can probably afford a cell phone bill. [00:38:57] Uh, I just, I just would prefer not to have to pay it. [00:39:01] Only one other life item in the last week, I was given a special opportunity. [00:39:11] Um, I've talked about massages a couple of times on this program and the, uh, I mentioned, [00:39:15] uh, the one I went, uh, the one I had most recently in a previous episode, I, I, I was, I was wrapping [00:39:29] up my massage with a human like you do. [00:39:31] And the human said, have you, have you tried our robot massage? [00:39:36] And, uh, I didn't know how to take that. [00:39:38] And I said, I, I've heard of it. [00:39:41] I know Becky tried it. [00:39:43] If you check Becky's, um, Becky Graham, you'll see, uh, there's a video of her, uh, getting [00:39:48] felt up by a robot. [00:39:50] Uh, I forget the name of the company, but it's, it's, uh, it's like a robot that tries to simulate [00:39:59] the experience of a human massaging you. [00:40:02] So it's, uh, you're on a bed, you're face down. [00:40:06] It's, uh, got arms that kind of go back and forth, uh, on a track and they, they push and [00:40:13] whatnot. [00:40:13] And it kind of reminds me of the white birthing robot from star Wars episode three at the end [00:40:21] when, when Luke and Leah are being born, it does everything short of make the cooing [00:40:26] sounds to get the babies to calm down. [00:40:28] You know, like I, you do have a tablet and you can, you can pick out these pre-baked Spotify [00:40:34] playlists while it's pushing on you. [00:40:36] Anyway, all that to say, I signed up, um, mostly cause it was free. [00:40:41] So I had a 30 minute trial and, uh, the fact is trying to imitate humans was really interesting [00:40:49] to me because I had just spent a month in Japan, uh, getting, uh, what'd you call it? [00:40:54] Uh, massage chairs, our hotel chain that we stay at has always has massage chairs and even [00:41:01] bad massage chairs in Japan are pretty intense. [00:41:03] Uh, uh, but, but good ones are just like, you know, you go in there and it's just like, [00:41:09] I'm sure there's been, you've probably seen a horror movie image, right? [00:41:13] Where it's like, you sit in a chair and then like 25 hands grab all the parts of your body [00:41:18] simultaneously and that is meant to be horrific. [00:41:20] But if those hands, if there was some nice music playing and it was illuminated and those [00:41:25] hands were massaging you simultaneously all over your body, maybe it would be pretty, pretty [00:41:29] great. [00:41:29] And so that's what a Japanese massage chair is like. [00:41:33] Cause they, they don't have this arbitrary conceit that a massage must happen in a format [00:41:39] that resembles how it would happen if a single human on a bed surface was rubbing your tiddly [00:41:45] bits, which is what this robot is. [00:41:49] Right. [00:41:49] And so it's trying to think of another analog, right? [00:41:55] Like where we, we kind of retain the artifice of the way that it used to be before we automated [00:42:00] it. [00:42:00] And, and in some, sometimes we do that to keep people being comfortable like that rich [00:42:05] Corinthian leather. [00:42:06] It's like, we wanted to look like a traditional calendar. [00:42:08] So people know what they're looking at instead of just a bunch of boxes. [00:42:11] It's like, Oh yeah, this looks like a placemat style calendar that I would have had on my desk. [00:42:15] And then eventually that ages out. [00:42:16] And the younger people are like, I've never seen a calendar on a desk, even though my dad [00:42:20] grew up with one, you know? [00:42:24] So maybe that's it, right? [00:42:25] Like, like sometimes that's why we would have a robo massage that like, you know, pressures [00:42:31] and needs you, you know, kind of with just the two arms up and down in particular points, [00:42:35] sometimes at the same time, sometimes just one arm, you know, it's, it's, it's less efficient [00:42:41] is my immediate frustration. [00:42:43] Cause it's like, you could have 45 fucking arms going to town all over my body and I'd [00:42:49] get way more work done in 30 minutes. [00:42:52] Right. [00:42:52] Cause I'm just trying to min max my existence, but instead by, by, by, by imitating a human [00:42:59] massage, like nothing is really gained because I can't see it. [00:43:03] I'm facedown. [00:43:04] I'm looking at a silly tablet and watching imagery, imagery of forests and, and, and ocean waves [00:43:10] and whatnot, and I'm kind of getting a, you can look at a weird overhead view of what [00:43:14] your body is looking at, looking like right then, you know, like it scans your body and [00:43:19] then has like a little illustration of like, here's where I'm pushing you. [00:43:21] Here I go. [00:43:22] It's, it seems more to me like they designed this, you look at this unit and it's just like, [00:43:31] this has got to cost at least 15 grand. [00:43:34] This is an expensive, complicated piece of equipment. [00:43:38] It feels like a lack of imagination, uh, to, to somebody had the idea, let's take human [00:43:47] masseuses out of the equation and just make a robo masseuse thing that we could put in spas [00:43:53] when, uh, you'd actually have a better experience. [00:43:56] It would be cheaper. [00:43:57] And there's like more prior art at Panasonic or these other companies in Japan. [00:44:01] If you just made a, you know, massage chair, but that would be boring, I guess. [00:44:08] Uh, and massage chairs, like you, you hear the word massage chair right now as you're listening. [00:44:13] And if you haven't had like a real one, you know, at a Japanese Denki-yasan on the third [00:44:17] floor, where all the salary men on their way home tell their wives, oh, I got a, I got a big meeting [00:44:24] with the boss and then they go to, they go to Yamada Denki or they go to Yodabashi camera. [00:44:28] And then they just, you know, they take their briefcase and they set it down next to one of the [00:44:33] trial units of the massage chair. [00:44:34] And then they, they, they, they, they go into this little like sensory deprivation pod and [00:44:39] they get all their bits smushed simultaneously and they got a remote control and they can [00:44:45] say, just do it hard. [00:44:46] And then they can forget their worries for, for 15 minutes until, uh, one of the staff has [00:44:52] to remind them that, uh, they don't live there and that they have to go home now. [00:44:56] If you haven't had that experience, uh, you probably, when you hear a massage chair, think [00:45:02] of like those $2, you know, leather chairs that are, you know, just like our just normal [00:45:08] fucking chairs that may be vibrate, like the vibrating bed equivalent that you see at an [00:45:12] airport. [00:45:12] Um, this is not what I'm talking about. [00:45:15] So get your head out of there and, and go Google, you know, for high end Japanese massage [00:45:22] chair, and you might get some idea. [00:45:24] Uh, also I, uh, in the course of a 30 minute massage, I encountered so many fucking Android [00:45:32] tablet bugs. [00:45:33] I, I didn't, I gave them a lot of feedback cause they, this is sort of a trial that they're [00:45:37] doing. [00:45:37] They wanted to want to know how, what I thought. [00:45:40] And I gave them a lot of this perspective and feedback about like, well, you know, this [00:45:44] skeuomorphic design, yada, yada. [00:45:45] But I didn't even touch any of the software stuff. [00:45:49] Cause like there's an absolutely nothing that they're going to be able to do with that much [00:45:52] less like they won't even be able to communicate this back to the company in a way that's helpful, [00:45:55] but it was, you know, it would freeze or the display would become non-responsive. [00:46:01] One time I had the music just turn itself all the way up. [00:46:05] The, um, the, so many things about this design are meant to make you feel comfortable are [00:46:13] meant to make you feel safe. [00:46:14] Like if, if you, it moves at all, or if it detects anything is off at all, it basically [00:46:20] like will, will disengage entirely and reposition itself. [00:46:23] And then you have to actively resume the massage. [00:46:26] And then it's got to put the little flappy doos back over you. [00:46:30] Like it's really worried about people flipping out about this robot pressing up against them. [00:46:36] And it extends to, to like, you know, you pick your firmness, like light, medium firm. [00:46:41] And I clicked firm. [00:46:42] And then there, you could see there was like a little like pressure bar on the right. [00:46:47] And that even though I'd clicked the firm preset, I wasn't at a hundred percent pressure. [00:46:52] And I was like, well, that, that won't do. [00:46:54] And so I jacked it up to a hundred percent right out of the gate. [00:46:56] And the whole time, 30 minutes, like you could, uh, [00:46:59] Hmm. [00:47:01] It, I knew that a massage was happening. [00:47:05] Like I knew when contact was being made, but like, it was not a massage. [00:47:08] It was, it was somebody kind of like, like, like back rub would be generous. [00:47:14] It was like somebody like took an open palm hand and just pressed it. [00:47:18] Just, just, just an obnoxiously against different parts of my body and no firmness beyond that. [00:47:26] So you got a robo massage. [00:47:29] It's limited in what it can do. [00:47:33] Cause it's trying to imitate a human. [00:47:34] It's very worried about liability, which is why I imagine the max firmness is light pressure. [00:47:39] Uh, and it's fussy and it's buggy. [00:47:42] And of course it can only do very limited regions of the body. [00:47:45] Like if I was a massage therapist, I'd be like, Hey, sweet. [00:47:49] You know, I'm going to keep having a job longer than all these programmer juckle fucks. [00:47:52] You're going to get replaced by a Claude and open AI. [00:47:56] So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm confident that a massage therapist is going to be a, a lucrative, you [00:48:03] know, going concern as a career for a little while programming. [00:48:08] I'm not so sure of, but most of us listening have already made our choice, whether we're [00:48:14] going to be massage therapists or programmers. [00:48:16] So we're just going to have to see how this, how this plays out. [00:48:19] All right. [00:48:20] Well, that's all, that's everything going on in my life. [00:48:23] So let's, uh, well, let's follow up on stuff that had been going on in my life and is now [00:48:30] continuing or is once again, I started to realize that there's a, there's a certain theme to this [00:48:37] show. [00:48:37] Hmm. [00:48:38] All right. [00:48:46] There's basically two major areas of follow-up today. [00:48:51] Um, but somehow the two of them take up 11 bullet points in my notes. [00:48:59] So I'll try to be expeditious. [00:49:02] The first is I bought a, uh, M4 pro MacBook pro, I guess an Apple nomenclature, a MacBook pro [00:49:13] left parentheses, 2024, right parentheses with M4 pro. [00:49:19] I think is probably maybe the 2024 is at the end. [00:49:22] Maybe they don't put the date now that they have the chip name. [00:49:25] In any case, I needed a computer that was built for Apple intelligence, which is how they also, [00:49:32] they crammed that in the fucking name. [00:49:34] Um, and like the, every subheader says Apple intelligence on it, which, you know, I mean, [00:49:40] if you're, if you're a marketing dude, it's the thing that, you know, like you gotta, every [00:49:48] year is a struggle to goose people into, to buying computers. [00:49:51] And, uh, it's been a while since they've had anything new to say that your computer can do. [00:49:56] So it makes sense, but come on. [00:49:59] It can't even make Genmoji yet. [00:50:02] Uh, just if you've, if you've downloaded it, used 18.2 iOS or iPadOS, uh, go turn on the, [00:50:13] um, you know, the AI feature, if it's available in your region and language, and then you open [00:50:19] the image playground app and you click through there and let it download all of the image [00:50:24] playground shit, uh, in particular, the image playground itself, where you can take a person [00:50:30] and a place and kind of like, you know, create sort of a, uh, a witch's brew of bad imagery [00:50:35] and then, and then have a keep swiping to the right as, as they just all look bad that I have [00:50:43] no, no need for, but Genmoji, or at least the promise of Genmoji, I like quite a lot. [00:50:49] I enjoy, you know, um, typing in little like name, like, so we were at the parks, uh, with [00:50:57] our friends last week and it was a Jollywood Knights event, which is also Gatsby themed. [00:51:06] There's a reason why ordering 1920s era costumes on Amazon in Orlando was like not an overnight. [00:51:13] It was like a two, three day leg because this, this Jollywood Knights 1920s era themed, uh, [00:51:21] ticketed event at Hollywood studios has been going on. And it was one of those nights. And so some [00:51:26] flapper lady in line, she had a purse that had a phone handle on it. And her husband, who now that [00:51:34] I think back on this was dressed very similarly to how I dressed myself last night. So something tells [00:51:39] me he was sort of a long for the ride in this, she picked up the phone handle off of her purse and [00:51:46] handed it to Becky. And then he, you could sort of see him on the phone being a bad ventriloquist [00:51:53] and talking to her on the phone. So like his cell phone was somehow communicating to the purse phone. [00:51:59] It was very, it reminded me of get smart, you know, like that spy TV show from the sixties that was on [00:52:05] Nick at night in the eighties or nineties when I would have watched it. Uh, of course it didn't [00:52:10] work. And then we were just in line and it was like, sorry, we're in line. It didn't work. And then, [00:52:14] and then of course the way that lines work, right. As you turn left, turn right. And now it's up, [00:52:18] here's the same people again. And so they're like, all right, try again. So she picks up the purse [00:52:23] phone and here's the guy talk. And she's like, yes, this is indeed a telephone. That is a purse. [00:52:28] My reaction, my contribution to this experience was to try to generate a Genmoji for the group [00:52:35] that I was with. That was like purse phone. And, uh, wouldn't you know it, uh, it struggled to like, [00:52:43] I was like purse with a phone handle on top. And it was, it gave me like one with like a, [00:52:49] like a locker combination lock instead of a rotary dial in the middle. It was all, it was not, [00:52:54] not good. And, and I think like a lot of these Genmoji, in addition to being bad and not good, [00:53:01] they are when they, there's, they have to be so detailed because usually it's people mashing up [00:53:07] different concepts. They have to be so detailed that when in line with texts, you have to squint [00:53:12] and you can barely see what they are. And then if they're as a tap back, you have no hope of knowing [00:53:16] what they are. Like if it's of a person, for example, like it's, you're going to get like 80% shirt [00:53:21] and then like 10% head. So you're not going to be able to tell who's what. Uh, so those need work [00:53:27] and no one wants my Genmoji. My, my brother has formally requested. I stopped sending them and, [00:53:32] uh, I will, I will take that request under advisement. Anyway, uh, bought a MacBook pro. Um, [00:53:42] Oh, I've got a, I've got a parenthetical as a C notes. All right, well, here's eight more bullet [00:53:50] points. I'm going to rattle through these. So Becky, actually, it was her idea. She wanted to [00:53:54] get me this. We were in Japan. She's like, Hey, you know, I heard you talking about the nanotexture [00:53:57] display. And like, of course, you know, the, the, the brighter screen and us being in Orlando, [00:54:01] you never use a computer outside or out of the house. So she wanted to buy it. And she said, [00:54:06] it was just really complicated. I didn't want to fuck up. I didn't want to get you the wrong set of [00:54:09] options. I asked Aaron and Aaron didn't know either. He said he hadn't really been on top of it. [00:54:16] Uh, and I was like, honey, that's so I didn't say like, bless your heart. I, it was a such a sweet [00:54:23] gesture. And it is true that I've been curious about it. Um, but I didn't feel like, uh, I had [00:54:30] to get one right this minute. Uh, and, and honestly, the, the, the 14 inch MacBook pro is still too heavy. [00:54:36] I, I, I, I lifted tonal my, my weightlifting robot, uh, reported in my tonal wrapped because [00:54:46] everything has to do a goddamn wrapped dingus to try to share in social media as if like, you know, [00:54:52] one assumes that all these wrapped posts just go to the goddamn bottom of every algorithm because [00:54:57] they're all the same. But in any case, it showed me a little wrapped video and it said, I wait, [00:55:02] I, I lifted one and a half million pounds last year or over the course of 2024. And I was like, [00:55:07] that's a lot of weight that I lifted. I, yesterday I did the equivalent of like, you know, 250, [00:55:12] 275 pound deadlift barbell deadlift. And that was hard, but not too hard. It's the max weight that, [00:55:20] that tonal can do. Um, I, I, I, I like to think I'm pretty strong now. Uh, that four pound fucking [00:55:31] MacBook pro is backbreakingly heavy, no matter where I am, I'll pick it up and like, that is denser than [00:55:40] it looks. It's a, it's like when you pick up a baby, that's like a little bit too dense, you know, [00:55:46] and you're just like, Oh wow. I was expecting this to be more fun. This is just going to give [00:55:51] me pelvic floor problems. If I do this for more than exactly 30 seconds and then hand it back to [00:55:57] its mother who surely has pelvic floor issues. Um, I don't want to be carrying around this MacBook pro. [00:56:05] I don't want to carry it with my arms. I don't want to carry it in a bag. I don't want to carry it [00:56:09] into the car. I don't want to carry it, you know, uh, in a Starbucks. I want to hire a Porter to [00:56:16] bring it around to me, you know, from place to place. Maybe, maybe they could also saddle up and [00:56:23] have a, uh, vision pro. So that's what I really want. Uh, at least until, and unless Apple releases [00:56:30] the 12 inch MacBook pro, uh, that we were promised in our early years. [00:56:34] Anyway, when Becky said that it was hard to configure and figure out what she'd want to order [00:56:43] or what I would want her to order. And as a result would have made a pretty lousy gift because [00:56:49] the likelihood of her getting it right. Where if you look at the number of configurations for these [00:56:53] seeing this thing, like astronomically small, I actually spent, I sat down, I look, I, I said, [00:57:01] I didn't need the thing. And then I come home and then within a day and a half, uh, my MacBook air is [00:57:07] crying because it's out of storage to the point where like I composed an email and I hit send on the email [00:57:12] and then Apple mail reported, yo, we just barfed on all this and just deleted all your shit. Cause we [00:57:17] ran out of disk space, no warning. And in modern day Mac OS, you don't get to know how much disk space [00:57:23] you have because all of it is like optimized storage. So like whether it's your iCloud drive [00:57:29] or it's your Apple photos, once the system is under any sort of, um, storage stress, it'll, [00:57:35] it's supposed to detect that and start deleting shit. Your phone does this too. So sometimes like [00:57:41] you're like, like I was importing a bunch of raw images on the phone and it said, Oh, you're out of [00:57:45] storage. And then I knew, because I know how it works under the hood, even though it exposes zero [00:57:49] controls or visibility as to what is going the fuck on. I knew that when it ran out of storage, [00:57:54] the right solution was sit and wait for 30 seconds while it deletes shit in the background and then [00:57:59] just hit import again. Right. Well, I, that didn't work in this case. Like I actually went and deleted [00:58:05] like a hundred gigabytes of garbage. It's a small SSD. It's a 512 gigabyte MacBook air. I deleted all this [00:58:11] stuff, but, um, from my iCloud drive on another computer, because this one was finder was completely [00:58:17] unresponsive. Uh, and it never got better because it had suspended all iCloud drive syncing as a, [00:58:24] probably like some sort of like memory safeguard or storage safeguard to like make sure I didn't, [00:58:27] it didn't fuck up anything in the cloud. And so like even going, I'm not going to, [00:58:33] most of that storage was in my iCloud drive, which is how it got full while I was overseas. [00:58:38] And when I came back, I, I didn't have like, I could, I could have gone through and like run [00:58:47] RM dash RF from the terminal and deleted stuff from the iCloud drive to like as a, as an emergency break, [00:58:52] like get, get this SSD empty enough that the operating system can run and then figure it out. [00:59:00] But then of course it would have synced all of those deletions up to the cloud and deleted the [00:59:03] same things off of my other computers. So this is a tractable problem. And I, I, I ultimately did solve [00:59:10] it, but I, I realize now why Apple markets so much of its pro devices to photos and video people, [00:59:20] because photos and videos take up a shit ton of space. Uh, they have different performance [00:59:26] characteristics than programming and, and the, their needs in many ways are higher than what you need. [00:59:33] If you're just writing Ruby code, right? Uh, it just so happens that Swift, the programming language [00:59:38] that they wrote is also like, we'll, we'll take advantage of all of these cores during compilation [00:59:42] in a way that like a lot of local development in other languages won't. [00:59:45] But in my last year of doing a lot more video work, doing a lot more audio work, I can definitely [00:59:52] understand now like, Oh yeah, like the, the MacBook air actually is inappropriate for a lot of the [00:59:57] workflows of the things that I do. So that experience, I came to Becky and I was like, look, I know I said [01:00:05] I didn't need this, but I think I might need this. Um, where need is in very, you know, very gentle [01:00:12] text. It's, it's a thin font variant to say, I need this. What I mean to say is like, I, it would save [01:00:19] me a lot of time and stress and headache and, uh, uh, rework to have a better computer, a more [01:00:26] capacious computer. And of course you can't upgrade the storage and your existing max. So here we are. [01:00:32] Um, but anyway, I was in the configurator for the new MacBook pro. And the first decision you got to [01:00:36] make is do I want a regular M4 chip, which I did not, or one of the pro ones, which is a, you know, [01:00:43] 12 or 14 core. I want to say a chip, uh, which is a huge upgrade over the M3 pro the M3 pro had a way [01:00:53] more efficiency cores and the M4 pro has more performance score. So it's like a, it's doing [01:00:57] much better in synthetic benchmarking that that's impressive. It's a big year over year change or the [01:01:02] M4 max, which is, you know, uh, an incremental improvement over the M3 max, but to the extent [01:01:10] that it's better than the pro it's like, you know, got another meat and quote unquote media [01:01:14] e

The software world is vast and ever changing. Cutting through the noise of language fads and building a system that meets your organization's goals, is maintainable, scalable, performant and clean is no easy feat. It is the Principal Engineers that stand at the helm and steer the ship in the right direction. Today we dive into the world of one Principal Engineer steering the ship for an iconic brand and how he views his role, what it means to be a principal engineer, his thoughts on AI in software, the importance and meaning of InnerSource software development, and more. Our guest, Jeff Bailey, is one of those superheroes guiding a famous brand to success. He started his software journey as a teenager and his first computer was a White Box 286, that he traded his Sega Master System and some games to acquire. He now has over 25 years of professional software development experience. He has worked for companies like Internet In A Mall, Earthlink, Evoque and Axian doing consultant work, and has a wide range of experience in languages like Perl to Cold Fusion to Python to Java to Javascript. He is currently a Principal Software Engineer at Nike and the co-leader of the Tech Modernization Team. He believes you must be a force multiplier to enable maximum efficiency for your team and prioritizing the right tool for the job. When our guest is not designing architecture or driving excellence at Nike he is gaming on Nintendo Switch, Steam and Xbox or creating a moody vibe playing his guitar. Enjoy the conversation!! Connect with Jeff: LinkedIn Website/Blog Sponsor: Clairity: Do you know how your engineers feel about your company? About their work? Connect your Github and install Clairitiy's real-time survey iteration tool now with code "buildwithpeople" and get 20% off your first year to discover real insights about your engineers experience. Show notes and helpful resources: Alfred Productivity App - A MacOS productivity app for automating workflows and tasks NuShell - A tool that allows running commands against JSON, CSVs, and other file types using a consistent query language. Jeff's Tools Jeff's blog post on Learning, Earning and Growing InnerSource Commons - A global community focused on promoting InnerSource practices and building InnerSource programs Principal engineer role - Jeff describes his role as a "force multiplier," amplifying the effectiveness of his team by solving complex problems, exploring new technologies, and always thinking a step ahead. A principal engineer isn't just a tech expert but a leader who can look beyond code to the broader organizational needs Building software for and with people - For Jeff, the ultimate goal of any technology is to serve people. Whether it's through enhancing productivity or solving everyday problems, software should make life simpler and less complicated for its users. His focus is always on understanding the real needs behind the code. Building something cool or solving interesting problems? Want to be on this show? Send me an email at jointhepodcast@unfilteredbuild.com Podcast produced by Unfiltered Build - dream.design.develop.

Host Luke McNamara is joined by Clement Lecigne, security researcher at Google's Threat Analysis Group (TAG) to discuss his work tracking commercial surveillance vendors (CSVs). Clement dives into the history and evolution of the CSV industry, how these entities carry out operations against platforms like mobile, and the nexus of this problem into the increasing rise of zero-day exploitation. For more on TAG's work on CSVs:https://blog.google/threat-analysis-group/state-backed-attackers-and-commercial-surveillance-vendors-repeatedly-use-the-same-exploits/https://blog.google/threat-analysis-group/commercial-surveillance-vendors-google-tag-report/https://blog.google/threat-analysis-group/googles-efforts-to-identify-and-counter-spyware/

Host Ruben Navarrette interviews Dr. Max Cuevas, CEO of Clinicas de Salud del Valle de Salinas, a string of non-profit and low-cost medical clinics sprinkled throughout the central coast and Salinas valley. They talk about the lack of health care insurance coverage, the high cost of health care, and an innovative project being run by the CSVS that imports doctors from Mexico to treat Mexican farm workers and other members of the working poor living in California.

Riusciranno Jimmy Buckets, Bam e il clan degli undrafted a battere Jokic & co.?

Si ritira il più grande non passatore di sempre. Much love Me7o

Lo scudetto del napoli e i 50+1 di Big Deuce.

The Bad Brothers risk demonetization to pledge allegiance to Trump. Michael relives someone else's hell. Will is comfortable with engagement. Also: North Korea, vibe check, Excel and CSVs, train-loving boys (Will was not one), and cryptic dog updates. Instagram https://instagram.com/badbrotherspodcast  Apple https://apple.co/2JeSUIr Spotify https://sptfy.com/badbrotherspod   Bad Brothers Pod Michael and Will Browning Port Orchard (& Gig Harbor) (& Tacoma, Seattle, Puyallup, Wenatchee, etc), Washington's Finest Podcast  

This week we discuss Acorn's attempt to simplify Kubernetes, the top 25 DevOps Tools and analyzing data in CSVs. Plus, Matt explains what Maccas means. Runner-up Titles All I am doing is sharing anecdotes That's the problem with spellcheck Maccas? College here is High School Every cloud has its own sausage Here's a unicode cow All Rust looks the same Too Good for GitHub The Shameful GitHub Rundown Simplifying Kubernetes, Introducing Acorn (https://acorn.io/introducing-acorn/) Waypoint (https://www.waypointproject.io/) CNAB (https://cnab.io/) Habitat (https://community.chef.io/tools/chef-habitat) Dagger (https://dagger.io) 25 Most Popular Programming Languages Used By DevOps Pros (https://thenewstack.io/25-most-popular-programming-languages-used-by-devops-pros/) Making sense of CSV The Microsoft Excel (https://www.techradar.com/news/the-microsoft-excel-world-championships-is-as-brilliantly-entertaining-as-it-sounds) W (https://www.techradar.com/news/the-microsoft-excel-world-championships-is-as-brilliantly-entertaining-as-it-sounds)orld (https://www.techradar.com/news/the-microsoft-excel-world-championships-is-as-brilliantly-entertaining-as-it-sounds) C (https://www.techradar.com/news/the-microsoft-excel-world-championships-is-as-brilliantly-entertaining-as-it-sounds)hampionship is as brilliantly entertaining as it sounds (https://www.techradar.com/news/the-microsoft-excel-world-championships-is-as-brilliantly-entertaining-as-it-sounds) Data Prep with Power Query (https://www.tiktok.com/@mavenanalytics/video/7129550248997014830?_r=1&_t=8UusyB7xB3G&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7129550248997014830) https://jupyter.org Passwords still a problem Microsoft Employees Exposed Own Company's Internal Logins (https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7gb43/microsoft-employees-exposed-login-credentials-azure-github) Cisco Confirms Network Breach Via Hacked Employee Google Account (https://threatpost.com/cisco-network-breach-google/180385/) Remove my password from lists so hackers won't be able to hack me (https://github.com/danielmiessler/SecLists/pull/155) Relevant to your Interests Malcolm Gladwell doesn't want you to have a life (https://www.sfgate.com/sf-culture/article/malcolm-gladwell-still-talking-nonsense-17362618.php?IPID=SFGate-HP-Editors-Picks) Disney says it has 221 million streaming subscribers. Netflix has 220.7 million. (https://twitter.com/pkafka/status/1557459876326113281?s=21&t=fB7RD3Xipv9AfZbg37VkVA) AppLovin offers to buy video game software maker Unity in $17.5 bln deal (https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/applovin-offers-buy-unity-software-2022-08-09/) No-code isn't scalable. Our learnings at FINN going from 1000 toward 100,000 car subscriptions (https://medium.com/@ishtiaque/no-code-isnt-scalable-our-learnings-at-finn-going-from-1000-toward-100-000-car-subscriptions-ac98e752fc61) Google fined $60 million over Android location data collection (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-fined-60-million-over-android-location-data-collection/) Software is eating the world (of farm equipment)? (https://twitter.com/znfrey/status/1558892805295968257) Investing in Flow (https://a16z.com/2022/08/15/investing-in-flow/) Tencent veterans secure $13M to build cross-chain decentralized identities (https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/15/tencent-veterans-web3-decentralized-id-bit/) Bad Visualisations (https://badvisualisations.tumblr.com/) TikTok says Project Texas will bolster security for US users – TechCrunch (https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/04/tiktok-says-project-texas-will-bolster-security-for-u-s-users-in-wake-of-china-data-access-concerns/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslogin&stream=top) Apple Sets Return-to-Office Deadline of Sept. 5 After Covid Delays (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-15/apple-sets-return-to-office-deadline-of-sept-5-after-delays?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslogin&stream=top#xj4y7vzkg) Corey's Thoughts on GCP canceling IoT (https://twitter.com/QuinnyPig/status/1559266853502853120) Securing apps for Googlers using Anthos Service Mesh (https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/developers-practitioners/securing-apps-googlers-using-anthos-service-mesh) Digital Ocean dumps Mailchimp after security breach (https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/16/digital_ocean_dumps_mailchimp/) WebOps: A DevOps for Websites, but the Tools Let It Down (https://thenewstack.io/webops-a-devops-for-websites-but-the-tools-let-it-down/) Citrix Bankers Pitch Fresh Structure for $15 Billion Buyout Debt (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-16/citrix-bankers-pitch-fresh-structure-for-15-billion-buyout-debt?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosprorata&stream=top) Scammers targeting recent grads (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/shaaahs_jobscam-identitytheft-hiringscam-activity-6965366767665774592-rkvj/?utm_source=linkedin_share&utm_medium=member_desktop_web) Lift and shift Windows applications to containers (https://www.infoworld.com/article/3670093/lift-and-shift-windows-applications-to-containers.html) Nonsense Snake bites 2-year-old girl, who bites it back until it dies (https://local12.com/news/offbeat/snake-bites-2-year-old-girl-who-bites-it-back-until-it-dies-reptile-venomous-world-health-organization-who-toddler-child-bingol-turkey) A man returning from Indonesia to Australia was fined thousands of Australian dollars after airport security found several McDonalds food items in his luggage (https://www.kvue.com/article/news/nation-world/mcdonalds-fine/507-bcbb3f31-0041-43a6-86cc-5933301e9d3a) Listener Feedback Join the Cloud Austin Meetup (https://www.meetup.com/cloudaustin/) Recent Event: CloudAustin's Dog Days of DevOps (https://www.meetup.com/cloudaustin/events/pljpfrydclbvb/) Amazon hosting a hiring event in Austin on Aug 23, 2022 (https://becomeawellarchitectedsoftware.splashthat.com) Follow @cloudaustinmeet (https://twitter.com/cloudaustinmeet) Conferences Register for the SDT Austin Meetup August 27th at 6:30 PM (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/software-defined-talk-meetup-in-austin-tx-tickets-396650401027) DevOpsDays DFW (https://devopsdays.org/events/2022-dallas/welcome/), August 24-25, 2022 - Coté speaking, along with John Willis, Andrew Shafer, and friends VMware Explore 2022, August 29 – September 1, 2022 (https://www.vmware.com/explore/us.html?srccode=na_pxkba4ap4tgmb&cid=7012H000001KawVQAS) - Coté's pitch (https://twitter.com/cote/status/1551895600270016512). Coté's VMware Explore 2022 Page (https://cote.io/explore/) Kubecon. Oct. 24 – 28 (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america/) SpringOne Platform (https://springone.io/?utm_source=cote&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=sdt), SF, December 6–8, 2022 THAT Conference Texas Call For Counselors (https://that.us/call-for-counselors/tx/2023/) Jan 16-19, 2023 SDT news & hype Join us in Slack (http://www.softwaredefinedtalk.com/slack). Get a SDT Sticker! Send your postal address to stickers@softwaredefinedtalk.com (mailto:stickers@softwaredefinedtalk.com) and we will send you free laptop stickers! Follow us on Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/sdtpodcast), Twitter (https://twitter.com/softwaredeftalk), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/softwaredefinedtalk/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/software-defined-talk/) and YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi3OJPV6h9tp-hbsGBLGsDQ/featured). 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Recommendations Brandon: Piran (https://www.audible.com/pd/Piranesi-Audiobook/1526622416?source_code=GO1DH13310082090P1&ds_rl=1262685&ds_rl=1263561&ds_rl=1260658&gclid=CjwKCAjwo_KXBhAaEiwA2RZ8hIOpyF2m-RzCFD6d-nk2M5yyqAGA5V4NaqFcBHF_TzgXjvWGoralghoCc9IQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)e (https://www.audible.com/pd/Piranesi-Audiobook/1526622416?source_code=GO1DH13310082090P1&ds_rl=1262685&ds_rl=1263561&ds_rl=1260658&gclid=CjwKCAjwo_KXBhAaEiwA2RZ8hIOpyF2m-RzCFD6d-nk2M5yyqAGA5V4NaqFcBHF_TzgXjvWGoralghoCc9IQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)si (https://www.audible.com/pd/Piranesi-Audiobook/1526622416?source_code=GO1DH13310082090P1&ds_rl=1262685&ds_rl=1263561&ds_rl=1260658&gclid=CjwKCAjwo_KXBhAaEiwA2RZ8hIOpyF2m-RzCFD6d-nk2M5yyqAGA5V4NaqFcBHF_TzgXjvWGoralghoCc9IQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) Matt: T (https://tailscale.com)ailscale (https://tailscale.com) Beach2Beach 13k (https://beach2beach.com.au/events/13km-run/) Festival of the Feet Half-Marathon (https://www.westiesjoggers.com/the-georges-river-festival-of-the-feet/) Photo Credits: CoverArt (https://unsplash.com/photos/IClZBVw5W5A) and Banner (https://unsplash.com/photos/y8fS7CSN-Vw)

[Referências] Campanha do grupo APT35 e Moses Staff- https://www.cybereason.com/blog/powerless-trojan-iranian-apt-phosphorus-adds-new-powershell-backdoor-for-espionage https://www.cybereason.com/blog/strifewater-rat-iranian-apt-moses-staff-adds-new-trojan-to-ransomware-operations https://www.recordedfuture.com/iran-hacker-hierarchy/ Campanha do SolarMarker - https://news.sophos.com/en-us/2022/02/01/solarmarker-campaign-used-novel-registry-changes-to-establish-persistence/ Análise do Mars Stealer - https://3xp0rt.com/posts/mars-stealer Campanha de phishing usando CSVs - https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/malicious-csv-text-files-used-to-install-bazarbackdoor-malware/ Operação do TrickBot - https://www.wired.com/story/trickbot-malware-group-internal-messages/ --- [Ficha técnica] Roteiro e apresentação: Carlos Cabral Edição de áudio: Paulo Arruzzo Narração de encerramento: Bianca Garcia Projeto gráfico: Julian Prieto

 Pre-order Michele's book on talking to customers! https://deployempathy.com/order Marie's course, Notion Mastery: https://notionmastery.com/ Marie's Twitter: https://twitter.com/mariepoulin Marie's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKvnOhqTeEgdNt1aJB5mVng Marie's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mariepoulin/  Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by Approximated. If you need to connect custom user domains to your app, Approximated can help. It can route any domain or subdomain to any application, all easily managed with a simple API or web dashboard. You can have unlimited connected domains automatically secured with SSL certificates for one flat rate. Website builders, communities and marketplaces all happily use Approximated every day to manage thousands of custom domains for their users. And it was built by an indie founder just like you, so every support request is handled by a developer who will personally help you out. Head over to Approximated.app today and mention Software Social when you sign up to get an extra month for free.  Michele Hansen Hey, welcome back to Software Social. We have another guest with us this week. I am so excited to have my friend, Marie Poulin, here today. She is the creator of Notion Mastery, which is this amazing Notion course that has over 1200 students, averaging $45,000 MRR. Pretty amazing business that she has built up. Welcome to Software Social, Marie. Marie Poulin  01:18Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat.  Michele Hansen  01:21So um, people listening may know you from all of your YouTube videos and courses with Notion, which have been crazy successful, and only, only, since October 2019, since you launched it, but I actually want to talk about something else. So you had another business, a course business called Doki, and actually, the last time I spoke, like, like, like, actually spoke with you like, internet friend is so funny. Like, I feel like I talk to you all the time, but actually, like talk to you, talk to you, was you and your husband, Ben, were thinking about what to do with Doki and whether you should sell it or shut it down. Marie Poulin  02:15Yes, and you very kindly reached out with some suggestions on how we might handle that. And it, it sort of wasn't, I don't want to say it wasn't our passion anymore, but yeah, you know, Ben got offered a full time gig. So for anybody listening, my husband and I teamed up back in 2014 to, to run our company together. We built a software and we ran it for I mean, five-ish years or so, and I think neither one of us was, it was definitely our first software project. And it was that build a giant software project that does all of the things and, you know, kind of wishing that we had done something smaller when we learned about the whole software building all of the different pieces. And so when we first went to MicroCon, that was, it was just so eye opening how many things we had done wrong, and it was it was a really wonderful learning experience. But I think it kind of showed us that there were parts of that, that just, I don't know that either of us was super excited to go 100% all in on it. I liked the working with people side of online courses and actually shipping and working on their websites, and just all of, all the other pieces of it other than the software. And so the burden was really on Ben to build all the features and do customer support, and, you know, he was pretty much like the solo founder handling all of those parts of the software, and I was handling more of the consulting side of it. And it was a huge burden on him. It was huge. And so when he got offered a full time job, it was a chance for him to step into more of a leadership role, be challenged, be working with other people, and it just, he really flourished. And I think it was something he was missing. Like, when you're a solo founder, you're just, you know, you're wearing every single hat. You're making all the decisions. And if you're bumping up against stuff you've never seen, it's pretty tough. It's a tough life to be, to be solo founder. So I was really encouraging him to, to kind of explore this new venture, but it sort of meant that Doki got left in the dust a little bit. And so we kind of took our foot off the gas, and just in this year in January 2021 we decided what if we just kind of shut down signups and, and just kind of let it do its thing and just kind of keep supporting the clients that were still using it, more like our consulting clients and not really market at widely. And so we did and I was like, how do you feel about this? And he's like, oh, I feel I feel so relieved. And I think that was really important that it didn't feel sad. It didn't feel like oh no, we're shutting this thing down. Like he felt like no, this is a chapter of my life that was great. And now it's over. So it's been a journey. Michele Hansen  04:54So, I mean on, you know, on this podcast, you know, we talk a lot about like, getting a SaaS off of the ground, or I guess, in my case now, like, getting an info product off the ground, and then also running those companies. But there's this other phase of it, which is exiting, and sometimes exiting means selling a company, or, you know, being acquihired by someone, or it means shutting it down. And I'm wondering if you can kind of talk through that a little bit about how you guys decided to sunset it, rather than sell it. Marie Poulin  05:37Yeah, because we had gone through this conversation back and forth. And we even had, you know, several people who had made offers to buy, and it felt actually pretty close, like, that was something we were really seriously considering. And again, you're, it was just really, really valuable to get your, your insights on that, and to have somebody that, you know, not attached to it just kind of as an outsider giving us perspective on that. And so we, we had some meetings, and we definitely considered it, and I think the burden of what would have needed to happen to be able to make that handoff happen in a way, such that it could actually be successful for those who are taking it over, felt too big for Ben. I think it was, again, given that his attention was elsewhere, it there was just such a cognitive load associated with all of that cleanup work, and just, just kind of the whole process of that transition. And it's possible that it may not have actually been that much work. It's kind of hard to know, in hindsight, but I think the anticipation of that, and just, you know, when Ben does something, he wants to do it properly, and he wouldn't have felt good, I think to just kind of pass it off as is knowing how much legacy work needed to be rebuilt. And he, he just didn't feel comfortable with it. And I was like, you know, I don't know this stuff as well as you do. And if you feel really confident and happy to just kind of say, you know, what, we're totally cool to just, like, the, the amount just kind of doesn't match up with, with what it would be worth to do that work, and how much extra time it would have taken him outside of his full time job. It just, it didn't feel like it was quite worth it to do that investment of the work. So that was a decision I sort of felt it was kind of up to them to make as a burden was really on him, and I think he felt a huge relief, honestly, even just like taking the signup off of the site. And just realizing, like, our business has gone in such a different direction, and it's okay to say goodbye to this chapter, and so it felt good. And I think that was really important is can we stand behind this decision? Does it feel good? Does it release a certain, you know, energetic burden, and it really did, and so that we felt good at the end of the day, for us that, that was the right decision. Michele Hansen  07:44I'm struck by how much respect I hear in that. You know, there's the respect that you have for Ben, that this was something that he knew really well and what like, had, you know, that, that, that transition work would have been on on him and your respect for that. And then his and also sort of both of your respect for your emotions, and recognizing those as valid and worth prioritizing, and, because I think some people say, oh, well, I'll, you know, get a lot of money from this. So you know, screw my feelings, like, you know, just have to suck it up, suck it up and do it. Like, I mean, the the market for even small SaaS companies like Doki, like, like, just for content, like, how much was Doki, like, making when you decided to shut it down? I mean, Ben would certainly have a better sense of the numbers at that point that we made the decision. I mean, certainly the pandemic did have a big impact. And we'd already kind of stopped doing any new feature development, even maybe the year before the pandemic hit. So I would say, you know, at its height, maybe $50,000 in a year. So we had some months that were like 4k, maybe 5k, and so by the time we shut it down, it was like 2500 to 2000. Like, nothing to sneeze at in terms of it was very low maintenance and, you know, covers our mortgage and expensive, like, that's awesome. But there is that mental load that's required there that you're kind of always thinking about that uptime, or you're thinking about how long, how long can we go not adding any features and not doing anything to really kind of improve or support or even do any marketing. So in some ways, it sort of felt like there was a time limit on how long we could get away with just, just letting it kind of simmer in the, in the background and not give it its full attention, and so it didn't feel good in that way that it it did have this sort of energetic burdensome feeling, and so respect is is absolutely huge. Like, you know, both Ben and I are incredibly autonomous. Like, we have always kind of worked almost like two separate founders under the same brand umbrella. So even when we partnered up, we still very much had our own projects, our own clients, and there's a lot of trust there with like, Ben and I are very different people, very different types of projects, very different things that light us up. And so, you know, Ben has higher anxiety than I do, and when we first launched Doki, I know the feeling of always being on and having to answer those customer support questions, and I think it takes a bigger toll on him than, than it might other people. And so that has to be factored in, like, what's the point of building these, like, software and these businesses that support our lives when it's just adding to our daily stress? Like, that's, that's not the point, right? So I think for both of us, it does really matter. Like, what kind of life are we building for ourselves? And if, are we building something that just feels like another job, but we just kind of built our own jail? Like, that's, that's not really fun. So I think we have a lot of understanding and respect for, yeah, what kind of life are we building, and ideally reducing stress and not adding to it so that, that was really important to me that he felt really good about that enclosure and didn't feel like oh, this was a failure, or, you know, it didn't go the way we wanted. For me, I'm like, holy crap, we learned an epic crap ton. You know, we just, it was just absolute, you know, entrepreneurship school on steroids. Like, you know, you just learned so many different parts from your customer research and the technical capacity and all the decisions that once you've done it once, and then it's almost too late, like, the wheels are in motion, and you've already, there's already, like, technical debt as soon as you started. It's a wonderful learning opportunity, and part of us wishes we'd tried it on something small, but my gosh, the learning has been incredible. So I don't, I don't regret any of it, and I don't think he does, either. It's the reason he has the job that he does now. It, he's, he's just like, both of us, I think are just highly skilled people that are going to adapt whatever happens like okay, cool. That was an awesome chapter. Next. What's next, you know.  You guys are incredibly emotionally intelligent and atuned, and, I mean, yeah, I mean, that you take that kind of focus is really, I think, remarkable and really commendable. And, you know, so after we had we had talked last fall, I guess, you guys were still kind of, you were unclear on whether you were going to shut it down or you were going to sell it, and I just tweeted out if anybody was interested in buying a SaaS, I think I said it had like 2.4k MRR. And I got so many messages after that, but I actually just got another one last week, and I got one, like, three months ago, like, the market for really, like really tiny SaaS companies is just, just bonkers. And I think it's so amazing that you prioritized how, like, not just the money, but how you felt about it. Now, of course that the notion courses making 45,000 a month and Ben has a full time job, like, that sort of makes it a little bit easier to make decisions that are not just guided by the financials, I imagine. Marie Poulin  13:16Definitely. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure that, that was a part of it was just, okay, we're not we don't have to make a purely financial decision right now, so what's going to feel, yeah, what's gonna feel the best? And I guess, yeah, I guess they didn't realize that maybe not everybody is as driven that way, but I'm definitely a very feelings driven person, and I know, we've talked about this a little bit with, with the sort of, you know, likely being an ADD or ADHD founder, and just, I didn't realize before, I think, how much of my decision making around how I've shaped my business has been, like, I've talked about it in terms of alignment and, you know, values-driven and that sort of thing. But I think part of it is I cannot muster up the energy to do stuff I'm not super freakin' stoked about. So I do kind of factor that into all my decisions. Like, I'm never going to design services that I'm going to be resentful of as soon as I'm designing them. It's like, if I already know I'm going to be resentful doing all these calls, like, I just cannot make that, that service available. So I do think I've gotten pretty tuned into like, alright, what's the stuff that lights me up, and how do I craft my offers so that I can be totally shining and excited about them? Because that, that's just, I guess, how I move through the world. Michele Hansen  14:34It seems like you combine this incredible self-awareness about what energizes you and prioritizing what energizes you with this huge sense of responsibility for the users of what you have created. Marie Poulin  14:54Yeah, I'd like, I'd like to think so. I mean, you know, one of the things that happened when we first launched Doki, was that people were signing up for it, and then they weren't shipping. Right? It's like anything now, like the time that it takes to actually launch a course, and I know you've had, you know, episodes with Colleen about this of just what it really takes to really grow an online course and actually make it a sustainable living. And so people would, would sign up thinking the tech was gonna solve that for them, and they're all, like, ready to go, and they they pick the technology well before they have their content created. And it didn't feel good that there were people paying us a monthly thing and they had never shipped a course yet. So, the first thing I did was like, well, we need to get people shipping faster, how do I do this? And I ended up creating a course that was run your learning launch that was trying to get people to like, get the shitty first draft of your course out as soon as possible, right. Like, co-create it with people. I'm a huge, huge believer, in co-creating products with your people. They are going to tell you what they want, they tell you what they need, and then the words that they use in those sessions, in those live calls that you're doing with people, that's exactly what shapes your, your sales pages and stuff. So I, I'm just a big fan of working with people on this stuff, and not just, you know, working in secret for six months building a thing, and then you know, putting it out into the world. Like, we know that it just it just doesn't work that way. So yeah, I think I do carry a huge, huge respect for, for the users that are signing up for my thing. It is a responsibility I do not take lightly. And so even right now with, with the course, I've been working for six months on the new curriculum. It's like, where can I look at all the places that people are stumbling, and maybe we overwhelm new, new people that are coming in like going, oh, my gosh, this course is so big, and then they get scared, and they run away and then they don't complete the course. Like, it does matter to me not just that they complete it, but they actually do experience some kind of transformation through that process. So like, how can I improve the learning outcomes? How can I design this better? I can't help myself, like maybe that's partly a bit of perfectionism. But it's like, I want this to be a really epic experience for them and be really memorable. And, in a way, that's my marketing, right? It's like other people sharing with other people, their experience of the course. To me that feels way better, and way easier than like, chucking a bunch of money into ads and just like getting it in front of people. It's like, no, I want the users to be so excited about it, that they are shouting it from the rooftops and getting people in the door. So yeah, that matters for sure. Michele Hansen  17:20It's so interesting, you're talking about like, building collaboratively with people, and, you know, I like I'm a huge advocate of talking to people and talking to customers, but I never really built in public, so to speak, until a couple of months ago, when I was writing my book. And you know, to what you said about, you know, getting early feedback from people and building it with them, that, that has been an incredibly, like, a transformative experience. And it's, it's really remarkable when you combine that combination of, as you said, something that you are super stoked about with other people who are stoked about it, like, you know, like to kind of, you know, talk a little bit about being like, you know, ADHD founder. So like, for so for, just to give us sort of a little bit of context. So like, I was diagnosed with ADD at 11, which I guess they don't diagnose people with anymore, because apparently, like, they were only diagnosing girls with it, or something. So now everything is all under ADHD. And you sort of are recently exploring, like, whether you're ADHD, and so but like, on this, this combination of, you know, working on something you're really passionate about, and then in the course of working on it in public, finding other people who are really passionate about it, who help you improve it, like, I feel like that puts my hyper focus in this insane overdrive. Marie Poulin  18:54Yeah. How do you how do you control that? I'm so, I'm so curious kind of what your, Michele Hansen  18:58I don't. I, yesterday, I was so annoyed that I had to stop working and make dinner. I was like, can't I just work for like, 48 hours straight, like, and, which is, like, not, like, I, like, my work life balance is a lot better than it used to be like, but I just like it's so, it's, like, painful when I'm really interested in something because it's like, yesterday, I was like, working on the book, like and it was just I was so, like, so fired up about what I was working on. And then I was like, okay, actually, like, we need to, we need to eat. Like, and I have you know, we have a family and like, my husband was mowing the lawn and like, you know, so I was like, okay, I need to like go to the grocery store like, I need to shift gears, but like, the whole time I was there like, you know, yes, I bought like lettuce and yogurt and whatever else we needed, but like, my brain was still like, writing.  Marie Poulin  19:48Somewhere else.  Michele Hansen  19:49Like, my brain like, was writing and I think, you know, to what you said about how you and Ben work very like, autonomously, like, Mathias and I work together for the most part, and I think this gets frustrating sometimes when I'm still thinking about something else, but I don't give any, like, outward signals of that. I'm just like, a little bit quiet. And like, he like, talks to me and like, I just don't know,  Marie Poulin  20:12You're nodding and say you're listening, but you're writing in your head. Yeah. Michele Hansen  20:14Yeah. Like, I don't even acknowledge it or, like, I seem like I'm listening. And then he asked me 10 minutes later, like about what he had told me about, and I'm like, what, like, this is new, and he's like, seriously. Like, the hyper focus can be amazing, but also kind of detrimental at the same time because if I have to do anything else, I'm just cranky. Marie Poulin  20:40I definitely, I definitely relate to this, and I think this was, this was one of the the signs like, I, I thought, well, I couldn't possibly have ADHD because like, I've been self-employed for 12 years, and I have a successful business and I get things done, and, you know, I sort of had a lot of misconceptions around what it meant to be or have ADHD because my sister has ADHD, too. And she is like, the poster child of what what you think of when you think of ADHD, and very hyperactive, super distracted, extremely extroverted, just like, a million thoughts, like, interrupting other thoughts. And, and I was like, okay, that's what ADHD looks like. It was very distinct. And so because I get things done, I sort of thought, I just had a different perception of it, and I realized that the hyper focus binges that I go on that were like, oh, that explains why like, it can be really hard to tear myself away from, from the screen, and it almost becomes borderline obsessive, and it can be really difficult to manage. So that is one of the signs I started to be like, oh. It always happens in these super inconsistent bursts, right? Very, very wildly inconsistent. And I always, yeah, like, frick, if you just have a dial, you could, you could, you could turn that on when you needed to, but oh my gosh, so I can relate to that. Just, it's inconvenient, and yeah, it's also the thing that helps us kind of push forward and get things done, and it's a wonderful thing when it's there, but it can happen at the detriment of other parts of our lives. So that's definitely something that I struggle with, for sure. Michele Hansen  22:13You know, I, like, I relate so hard to that, because I can't possibly, you know, have ADHD because you get so much done. Like, when I was in college, I think there was like, a running joke about how many jobs and side projects I had at any given time. Like, I think it was like, I had, it was like, six. Like, I had a part time job, I had an internship, I had like, volunteering, I had, like, all of these like, side projects with my own going on, like, um, and, but when I, so when I was diagnosed as a kid, like it was very much presented as I had this deficit of focus. And then I had to overcome that deficit of focus, and then like, that was it. And like, I, so I was never like, really in therapy or any sort of treatment. Like I was taught how to manage that, like calendars, and like, planners became a huge part of my life. But when I was, this was when I was in elementary school. So when I was in middle school, I was supposed to have like, you know, a tutor, and like somebody who like worked with me on it, and like, a plan, they call it a 504 plan in the US, but I never actually had it because my grades were too high. And,  Marie Poulin  23:21People always think you need the support, right?  Michele Hansen  23:22Right. Because it was like, oh, like if you you know, if you have those, like if you have this deficiency, like, she's overcome the deficiency if she's getting A's and B's, so there's no problem here. And I didn't, really for me, it wasn't only until the last like six months or a year that I started understanding all of these other facets of it that, like, it's not just that sometimes I have trouble focusing on tasks I don't want to do. Like, there's all of these other things like, you, you know, that, there's the hyper focus you mentioned, there's the like, the perfectionism that you touched on earlier, you know, there are those kind of, you know, everyone's experience of it is different. But like, I, there's just so many things that like, I thought were me things that were just kidn of weird about me. And then it turns out, there's all these other people who are weird, like me, and, Marie Poulin  24:16To read other people's descriptions, and you go, are you kidding me? Like, that's a, that's a thing? I'm not alone? Or like, I thought it was just a family quirk, and then you're like, oh, or is it that actually a good chunk of my family also, you know, like sister's diagnosed and when you look at the behaviors, you're like, oh, yeah, like, it would explain why our family kind of operates this way. And, you know, the more you start to meet people, you're like, oh, okay, there's, there's maybe a reason, too, that, and I don't know if you if you feel this too, but that for example, people with ADHD seem drawn to my work or drawn to my, my style, right? Because I think in some ways you get attracted to different people's communication styles, and I realized, like, in certain calls that I would I have with people that were very energizing, I didn't realize this at the time, it's almost like, you know, when you like, once you see it, you start to see it everywhere, of all the people that I connect with that had ADHD that I didn't know, I was like, oh my gosh, that explains why when we get on a call, neurons are firing, and we're all over the map, and we're just like changing gears, like, constantly, and it just feels like this creative spark is just like, going and going and it's incredible. It's a very different experience with someone whose brain doesn't work that way, and I, I started to clue in, I'm like, oh, maybe there's a reason. And then when you start to look at the behaviors, I'm like, okay, like, it would explain a lot. You know, and you start to kind of look backwards and be like, oh, yeah, all those behaviors start to kind of click into place. And you see, actually, things with a new lens. And when I look at past behaviors, and maybe ways I've really, really judged myself, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, I just, I didn't realize, you know, and I think for me, a big part of that is workaholism, in a way. Like I thought, I really judged myself for being like, oh, I'm like a workaholic, a workaholic. And I thought, yes, and like, it's not so black and white like that. I am very driven by the work that I do because I've so carefully crafted work that I don't hate, and so I've designed work that I love. I'm getting to connect with people and ideas get to form, and I'm always doing new things every day. So of course, like it's feeding that dopamine, I'm like, yeah, it's like, I love this. And so, it is really difficult to shut off work. And so I think I carried a lot of guilt that I work on weekends, but also take really long breaks in the middle of the day and go gardening. And so like, I have found my own ebb and flow, and I think I was really harsh on myself with some of that stuff. And then I was like, well, what if it's actually okay, that my brain is a little more activated than the average person or, or it just kind of feeds off information differently, and maybe I want to consume more courses at a time than the average person. And so it's just brought up a lot of interesting reflection that I'm seeing behaviors and maybe a different light, and that I actually find I'm being a little more compassionate with myself to be like, hey, is that Maria's personality is that ADHD? Is that me coping? Like, it's still very much learning for me. So I'm still kind of just keeping an open mind and just really trying to reflect and notice those behaviors now. Michele Hansen  27:20You know, the, we are, you know, what's called sort of neurodivergent people living in a neurotypical world. And I think, from, you touched on sort of that, that guilt about not having sort of, quote, unquote, like, normal patterns for things and ways of thinking about things. And I think unpacking that shame that we don't fit the neurotypical box is so important, because, I think in, you know, education and kind of maybe, and like, when you're not working for yourself, like neurotypical is the standard, and people who don't meet that are kind of just outside of that. And so, like, there's like this, like, we blame ourselves for that. But if instead, you know, we can, like find ways to work on the things that we are passionate about, and that do energize us, then these, like, amazing things can be unlocked. And I think, like, I have noticed that I tend to find a lot of neurodivergent people in the kind of, like, indie SaaS courses like, internet biz world, and I wonder if that's because a lot of us have just felt like we didn't, yeah, like, we didn't really belong and like, but like, the way to, like really bring out like, what we are capable of, like, like, I remember when I worked, you know, in bigger companies, like I always, I would describe myself, like a pin and a pinball machine. Like, I just always felt like I was just like, bouncing around constantly trying to show like, what I was capable of, and like, what I was good at, and like, what I could do and what I could contribute, and that was always, like, way more and different than whatever the role I was in was supposed to be doing. And it was so frustrating. Like, it was like, deeply frustrating, you know, versus now, like, you know, I can focus on the things that, you know, sort of with, I guess, with a little bit of business knowledge, right? Because you can't just focus on things that don't lead to an income. Um, you know, like, yeah, the things that really energize, and like you've said, how this, like, managing your own brain in a way, it's kind of like, maybe what attracted you to notion in the first place, and then kind of prompted you to go on this path of making this amazingly, like, I'm so amazed by all the things you build with Notion, like this tool that, like, helps you not only steer your brain, but like express it in the way that it wants to be expressed that maybe is not really reflected and other tools. Marie Poulin  29:53Yeah, it's a, it's a weird and wonderful thing, but it does feel like this bizarre culmination of all of my weird interests and strengths, and like even the fact that it's kind of like a No Code builder of sorts, right? It's like I have a web design background, and so I think naturally I'm inclined to build information architecture, but do it beautifully. Like, that's what I did for clients. And so, and then even like my design thinking background, and how I've studied systems, or how I've had to find these productivity systems for myself that worked. And the way certain tools, you know, are very opinionated, and they, they sort of force you into, like, like Asana, for example, everything is a task, like, it sort of forces you into one way of thinking, which is great, it's a great task manager. But I'm like, my strategic planning doesn't really fit in there, and how do I connect that to, to, and everything just kind of felt messy. And, you know, as someone with ADHD that already, already feels like I'm everywhere all the time, for me, Notion was this place where like, suddenly I could see everything that was on my plate in one place in a really easy way. So this ability to like, zoom out, zoom in very, very quickly and have it all integrated was just like, ah, everything like has come into place. And it just kind of clicked, and I think I was just so passionate, so excited about it, it felt like you know, I said life was a shit show before Notion. Like I had tried to get to, like you said, lean on calendars, we like find the systems to kind of lean on like a bit of a crutch. But there were still some systems pieces missing that Notion, in a way, forced me to build my own in a way that really worked for my brain. And I don't think it's a coincidence that just so many of the people that have joined the course or that seem really excited about it and get a lot out of it have also mentioned their own ADHD. Like, I literally just saw a message pop up in the forum, like 20 minutes ago that said how they think notion is just an ADHD friendly tool. I'm like, What an interesting thing that, again, it wasn't even on my radar a year ago or two years ago. I didn't even really think about it. I didn't, I certainly didn't even remotely suspect that I would have had it. And yet, now that I'm aware of it, and I'm seeing more conversations around neurodiversity, really just seeing how Notion gives neurodiverse folks a place to be themselves, as kind of cheesy as it sounds, like, the fact that you can just make it what you want it to be. It can be a personal growth engine, it can be a place where you organize your files, you know, daily journaling, like, you name it, whatever you want it to be, it can be a place that inspires you. And so I just, I love to show people like, well, here's how I'm using it for my garden tracking, I just love there's just endless possibilities with it. And I think if you only look at it as a productivity tool, you know, people kind of poopoo it or they're like, oh, procrastinate, procrastinating on building their setups, and let you know, people have all sorts of opinions about it. But I actually think it is, it's a tool for managing your emotions just as much it is as a tool for managing your information. So I find it quite fascinating from a tool for making you more mindful about how you work and what you need, and just noticing your energy. And I didn't, I didn't know all that stuff wasn't stuff that other people did. It's not till showing it to people, and they're like, holy crap, this is the most organized thing I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, me, are you kidding me? Because like, I see the baseline the scenes, right? It's like, it's, it's funny to me the things that it's only once, you know, to bring it back to your conversation about sharing in public, working in public. When you make your thinking visible, and you share what you're doing out there, that's where I think you start to see what are those spiky points of view that you have? Or what are the interesting ways that you approach stuff that people are like, whoa, I didn't even think of it that way. So yeah, I'm curious, too, in you sharing your stuff publicly, and doing the writing publicly, like, has anything surprised you that you put out there and you're like, oh, wow, I didn't expect that to really land for people or, you know, what did you notice in your process of sharing your stuff publicly? Michele Hansen  33:53Yeah, I mean, so something that actually has surprised me in the last, I've had two people in the last week, tell me how the introduction of my book made them completely rethink how they approach other people. And,  Marie Poulin  34:11Wow Michele Hansen  34:12How they like, didn't even like, they didn't realize like, the extent of empathy and what it was and how they could use it and how it can help them be a better you know, coworker or person and, like, not just someone who's better at making landing pages or making product decisions. And I started out, like, I, so I, the the introduction, I actually originally didn't really have a very good introduction of the book. Like, I didn't define empathy very much or anything. And then one of my early readers was like, I think, I think you need to introduce this a little more. And so I did, and then like, it basically sounds like people are, some people like reading the first 10 pages and then being like, whoa, and then like, going on this other path. And then like, and then they're like, okay, well when I actually like, need to build something I'll come back here for the scripts. But like, having this, and, you know, like we've talked, like we've talked a lot about, like emotional intelligence here, and like, I've had my own journey with there and like, talking about, you know, workaholism, like, is that is that a trait? Or is that a trauma response? Like, it's kind of both, like, and like, so that has been a really important journey for me. By the way, if that resonates with anyone that's called the flight response, just Google that. And, and so that like, like, I have this kind of like, this, like, little dream that like, you know, like, people, nobody puts like, be more empathetic on their to daily to do list, maybe some, maybe you do. But like, nobody really doesn't. But they put like, you know, get more sales, like, write a new landing page, like, figure out which features I should build. Like, those are the things that come up on people's to do lists. And so I have this, like, kind of dream that like, in the process of helping people do those things they already want to do that they will become more empathetic in general and learn that this is a skill that they can apply not just to business, but to the rest of their life, because it's been such an important journey for me, because it's something that I really didn't really learn until my 20s. And, and, yeah, I mean, that's, I don't know. Yeah, it's been very, like, it's been very soul-nourishing for me.  Marie Poulin  36:31The process of writing and sharing?  Michele Hansen  36:34Yeah, I think like, in a very unexpected way, and, you know, kind of talking about ADHD, and so it sounds like what you're doing, like, you sound very much like a systems thinker. And you have built this sort of digital system that reflects your mental system, and in the process of doing so, you're helping people realize that, you know, they could build off of that to build something that reflects their mental system. And it's like, and you're helping them really like, blossom into, into expressing their thinking. And what I'm doing, like, I have, I have had feedback from people who have said, they are ADHD, or autistic, and they have said that, like, this is very, very different for them, for, I mean, for those two groups for very different reasons. But like, I've had people tell me, like, I don't think I'm capable of doing this because, you know, as you said, there's a kind of that stereotype of people who are ADHD that they, like, you know, talk over the people, like, can't stay on a topic, like, you know, just all of that, which, like, I mean, I think if we weren't doing a podcast right now, like, we would be excitedly talking over each other right now, like.  Marie Poulin  37:53I was wondering.  Michele Hansen  37:54I, like, am really holding back. Marie Poulin  37:57Which is exhausting, right? It's like, it takes a lot of energy to, like, tone it down, be normal, like,   Michele Hansen  38:04Oh, I'm gonna go jump on the trampoline after this. But, like, for me, it's like this weird thing, because, because I didn't learn, like, this either wasn't built into me, or I didn't learn it as a kid, like, I've had to really focus on learning how to like, listen to people. Marie Poulin  38:23You're so good at it. Michele Hansen  38:25It became a hyper focus thing for me, like, so I feel like when I'm listening to people, like learning, like, I have to like, I think it's why people are like, oh, this made me realize these things about empathy I didn't even realize, because I had to, like learn empathy and listening at a level that most people don't have to. Like, I had to really understand it. Like, I had to really dive deep into it. Because I just didn't have that, like, I didn't, I was not born with that feature built in. So, and then, but like, I think it kind of became this thing that, like, I hyper focus on. And so like, when I'm talking to someone, like, I'm just like, I'm like, completely submerging myself into them, and like exploring their brain, and I think, you know, talking about like, systems thinkers, like, that's something I love is like, getting to understand the system of somebody else's head and like getting to, like, poke around and all the little corners and be like, oh, why is, what's going on here? Like, we're like, what do we got going on here? Like,  Marie Poulin  39:29I compare it to like, looking at their underwear drawer. You're just like, you get to see like, it's very personal, right? And people are often like embarrassed or they feel a lot of shame because, like, their their space is really messy. But I love that, right.  Michele Hansen  39:42I love mess.  Marie Poulin  39:42It's so beautiful. It's, and I will say, like, in the call that we had with you like, I was so struck by how intently it felt like you were listening. I was like, I, it was like almost disarming. Like when I got off, I was like, I can't think of the last time that someone actually was just there to listen. Like, there was no agenda there. Like, you were you were really just there to be a helpful ear, and it was just quite impressive, I have to say, I was just like, holy crap, Michele is an incredible listener. I was really blown away. And so I love that you got nerdy about listening. So nerdy. I love it. Michele Hansen  40:23I mean, I grew up being, I think the thing, the number one thing I heard growing up was Michele, you never listened, like, you're not listening, you don't listen. Like and like, I have found complex, that I have found that the things that I'm really bad at, like, if I get over that, and then, like, I will, like intensely research it, and it will become a huge focus for me, like, I would like, so like in college, I studied international affairs and economics, and I remember in one of my first classes, one of the professors asked who knew what, like, Bretton Woods was, and, you know, I'm from New England, and I was like, I know, that's a ski resort, but like, I don't know anything else. And like, you know, it's it's the, the post-war monetary system that was set up after the war, basically, to prevent another war, economically. But I didn't like, know that, and I felt like really embarrassed. And I ended up like, really diving into the topic to the point where it was not only my thesis topic, but for like, two years, I wrote papers about related things in other classes, even when I wasn't required to. And now I have this, like, just all of this knowledge about, like, monetary relations in Europe, specifically focused on the US and Germany, like, between, like 1958, and like 1973, really intensely on the 71 to 73 period. And, like, I it's not particularly, like, for what I do, it's not really useful information, but like, kind of like, I feel like that's very similar to how I got into doing listening and interviews because, because I was so bad at it, because I didn't know what I was doing, because I was like, I felt embarrassed that I didn't know what was going on, or like, people had made me feel like I was deficient in that. Like, I think this is where that, like, that hyper focus comes in. It's like, once you like latch on to a topic, like, you can't get your teeth out of it, even if you, like, wanted to.  Marie Poulin  42:28Painfully relateable. I love that you brought this up to you because I think I've done this throughout my my career to where it's like, oh my gosh, like public speaking this is like, I'm terrible at this, I'm so afraid of it, it's like, must hire three different coaches and take five courses and like, read every book, you know. Like, just go down these crazy rabbit holes to go to such an extreme to work on a skill that you know, I was maybe like, not, not that great at it wasn't terrible, but just didn't feel like a strength. And I think I've often felt self conscious of is it a waste of time, when I should be like focusing on my real strengths. And so, I just think it's so funny. There's, there's obviously a trigger there around feeling incompetent, or like, I hate that feeling stupid or feeling like something I'm really bad at is preventing me from succeeding in business. And I, you know, I've shared before a little bit about, like, fear of being on video and fear of being on stage. And so these are all things I've obsessively worked on. And you know, I'll share like a super vulnerable moment from not, not that long ago, but there was ,there was someone who shared with me, they spoke with someone who had taken the course, and it was an older woman. I don't know when she took the course, but maybe she took it like, early on in the course building journey. It's definitely gone through a number of iterations. But she she was like, angry. She was like, oh my gosh, she goes so fast. She's all over the place. She needs to read about adult learning. Like, she's a terrible facilitator. And like, if I showed you my Notion goals page, it's like being a masterful facilitator is literally on my, my big visionary goals. And I was like, oh my God, am I, is this just like a skill I am, I am bad at? Like, it knocked me on my ass and I questioned everything. I was like, oh my god, what's going on? And in the same week, I literally had someone say that my sessions were the thing that they look forward to every week. And it was so weird to get this, like, the most negative criticism I've ever gotten, and the most positive, and it was in that same week that I had actually discovered, that I started to realize I probably had ADHD and I realized that my presentation style and my exploratory show you the possibilities, it's, it's quite different than say someone who might be a little more neurotypical, a little more instructional in style. I know that my vibe, it doesn't jive for everyone, but it really works well for people that have ADHD, and so that's where I was like, oh, crap. So, hiring a course coach, a curriculum designer, a learning advocate, like, I went all deep, and I was like, I'm going to learn about facilitation, I'm going to learn about teaching, I'm going to learn about learning design, like, how can I make this experience so good that, like, nobody could ever say anything like that? You know? And like, fair enough, if someone, like, it doesn't resonate with them, I totally get that. But it just, it just felt holy crap, like, is this is this like, a giant blind spot that I'm not seeing? And, you know, after talking to a number of students, a number of people, it was like, no, like, you know, this is someone who's not very comfortable with computers. This is someone that, like, it doesn't make sense for this type of person to be using Notion. Like, I don't think Notion is the right tool for everyone, and I don't think my instructional style is is for everyone, and I'm okay with that. I've made peace with that. And there's room to to improve that. So I definitely feel you on like, ooh, rabbit hole, here we go. Let's work on this scale. Because like, no one can criticize this again, like I would go all in, just watch me. Michele Hansen  46:04Have you come across the term rejection sensitive dysphoria?  Marie Poulin  46:08I have.  Michele Hansen  46:11So it's this term for how, I don't, I don't have a good way of explaining it. But like, it's for how painful, like, that kind of criticism can be, and how it can either, like, prevent people from wanting something in the first place, or when you get that criticism, it i,  Marie Poulin  46:30Highly motivating.  Michele Hansen  46:32Yeah, but like, it's all-encompassing.  Marie Poulin  46:35Yeah.  Michele Hansen  46:37Like, it's, and then you said that somebody else that same week said how much they loved your course, yet, you're,  You keep ruminating on the bad, right? Ruminating and obsess over and then hyper focus on that, and then go into this mode of, like, wanting to make sure that never ever happens again. And it's like this kind of extreme version of loss aversion, where, you know, we're so afraid of losing something, like, of losing that, in this case, like, that person's, you know, like, their positive feedback on the course or their, their positive experience with it, rather than focusing on the people who already had a positive experience and making it better for the people who is, because like, it's like, do you actively, like, frame your course, or some of your courses as being for ADHD people, or, like, neurodiverse people? Marie Poulin  47:33I don't, again, part of this is I'm not officially diagnosed. And, and, you know, again, I'm still learning about this stuff. And so I partly feel like a little bit of imposter complex around this whole topic to know I want to be very careful, you know, like, just, just being mindful about how I talk about it. And, and, Michele Hansen  47:53Everyone's experience is different of it, like, yeah. Marie Poulin  47:56Totally, totally. And so I just want to be very careful about it, and it is something I've considered of like, maybe it would actually, like, the number of people that have watched the, I have a YouTube video where I'm teaching my sister who has ADHD how to use Notion, and the positive feedback, and the people being like, oh, my gosh, it was so nice to see normal people, like, normal people like me, you know, other people with ADHD, just, just going through this experience. And it did make me wonder like, well, hey, knowing that this is the case, and knowing that it seems to attract these people, should I go in that direction? So it's been on my mind to some, something to maybe mention, and even kind of tease out a little bit, like, in my welcome sequence. When I'm introducing myself, I'm starting to, like, try out using some of the language. And I will say, I've gotten an incredible response. Anytime I've talked about it, it's been really, really positive. So, I don't mention it, but it is something I'm like, maybe like, and should I get a diagnosis to be? Does it matter? I don't really know. I'm not really sure what the, what the protocol is there. But yeah. Michele Hansen  49:01I mean, like, I have a diagnosis, but like, I, I feel like I don't really understand it very well, like, because I just kind of accepted it as this thing that was just wrong with me that I had to control. And then like, that was kind of it. Um, and I like so in my book, actually, in the original newsletters, like I talked about having ADHD and how, you know, focusing on people and listening and like, all that, like, were really difficult for me because of that, and I got so much positive feedback on it, but then I got it into the book, and I, like, one of my reviewers was like, you know, your experience of ADHD is not a universal one. And there's like, and they were saying there's kind of a difference between like writing it in a newsletter, where people know you and they start from a point of kind of the sort of familiarity, like, that they they trust that you come from a good place, but like writing it in a book, people won't know me people won't know like and even if I say this is only my experience of it, like, someone who has had a different experience of the diagnosis or, or like, doesn't, like, that they have the diagnosis doesn't let you know they have made been made to feel less than because of it, or worse. I think both of us kind of tend to view it as this, like, this thing that we could steer and bring out, like, bring out our true selves, so to speak. Like, so I ended up taking it out, but it also feels so relevant, like it, like it feels like this piece of information that people need to know that it's like, Yes, I was known for not being able to listen to anything, so then I focused on it to the point of it being like, this obsessive skill. Almost necessary base information.  Marie Poulin  50:46Part of the story.  Michele Hansen  50:47Yes. And the same way that like, and so I found a way to like, kind of tell that story that I had to listen, like learn how to do this, but like without using the diagnosis, but like, part of me, really. So like, maybe it's like something I can do in a talk or something like that, right? Like, there's not every, like, there's different forums for things.  Marie Poulin  51:04Not every medium needs to, yeah. Michele Hansen  51:05And also where I can kind of explain, and if someone has like a question of like, well, that's not my experience of it, then we can talk about it afterwards. And they can know that I'm coming from a good, I don't, I don't know, I also feel conflicted, because I don't want to, like, I can only speak from my own experience. Like, I am, and again, maybe again this is maybe an ADHD thing, or it's like, I haven't hyper-focused on ADHD itself, so therefore I cannot speak about it.  Marie Poulin  51:29Totally. Oh, my gosh, the hyper-focusing of watching all the videos about ADHD and like, it's just, it's it's so funny looking at all the memes. I was so dismissive of ADHD, because I was like, oh, well, come on. That's all of us for every single meme. And at some point, I was like, wait a second, like, is that all of us? And yeah, it took some digging, and I was like, wait a second here. Michele Hansen  51:52There's some tweets about this that I find myself referencing, and it was either people with ADHD need to stop being so relatable, or I need to go to the doctor. Marie Poulin  52:06Exactly. Michele Hansen  52:07I think, you know, my, so this is super fun talking and relating to you and like, realizing, you know, that we're both not weird. We're weird together. But my, the reason I really wanted to talk to you about this here is because I think people who are neurodivergent, who don't fit the box, like, tend to feel like we're not as capable of things as other people, or we have been made to feel that we're not as capable. And I hear from people that are like, I don't know if I could run a business, like, I can't, you know, like, if I can't focus on one set thing, like, and I'm all over the place, like, I can't possibly run a business. And I think what I like to show and, like, what you show, amazingly, is that not only can you run a business if you have ADHD or any other like, because I noticed all these, like, people in the indie community, like, they're people, like people who just don't fit the box. Like they have, they have disabilities, they have chronic health conditions, they are autistic, like, whatever those things are, like, they have been able to find a home in this place, and like, you can run a business if you're ADHD like, you, like, like, I present myself as evidence and I feel like you are evidence of that, too. Marie Poulin  53:35Absolutely. I think a big part of it comes down to you have to know yourself really well. Like, you have to know your triggers. You have to know how you're incentivized, how you best operate, so that you can either get the support that you need, or again, you can design your products and services in a way that, even though, for example, I've been a generalist for a decade, and it's really only in the last year and a half, two years, that I was like, I'm going all in on Notion. Like, I see an opportunity here, like, let's, let's just try this, I'm going to see, like, what's the worst that could happen? I make, I make some money for for this chapter and I get known as the Notion person and then I can, like, flip the chapter and do the next thing. I've been in general so long, I was like, whatever, let's just give it a try. And what again, what I love about it is my days can be so freakin different. Like, I am not doing the same thing every day even though I'm doing one thing and so you know, it's about finding traction with that one thing but if you can design your business in such a way that you're still getting, you know that dopamine hit or whatever it is that you need, you got to know yourself well enough to know, hey, I really thrive with routine or I really thrive with days that look very different, and then getting someone to support you on your team, like, maybe you have a small team. For me hiring my direct my you know started with a virtual assistant, who is now my, mou know, Director of Operations and having her is no doubt a humongous part of why I've been able to do the kind of growth that I've done. Like, I would have been scrambling wearing all these different hats. So to have someone whose focus is entirely operations and all the nitty gritty, like, export of CSVs, any of the detail work, I'm like, let's just be honest, Marie is not the details person. I've accepted this. And now we have someone who is a details person who frickin loves that stuff. And the stuff that makes me cringe is the stuff that makes her day, and like, what better? Like, that's all you can ask for, I think. So, even if you're just getting support in a really, really tiny way, you know, again, there's just so many opportunities, I think, to get creative with the way you design your business, that it is supporting you. But you do have to, to know yourself really well, I think to know how to do that. Michele Hansen  55:51And what I, you know, ADHD, the first two words of it, or attention deficit, and I find that you show is that it's not a, like, it doesn't have to be this thing that's deficient about you.  Marie Poulin  56:06It's just a little inconsistent, that's all. Michele Hansen  56:08Like, it can be, if you sort of steer it and give it support, like, it can be this amazing thing that you bring to the world. Like, it's not a deficiency. Like, I feel like that's just kind of like, the message I can give to like 11 year old me, like, it's not a deficiency, like you just have to help it come out. Marie Poulin  56:28Well, hyperactivity like that, like you've said before, like the phrase, it just, it doesn't carry a whole lot of positive connotations. And so,  Michele Hansen  56:36No, the whole thing sounds very negative.  Marie Poulin  56:38It does, yeah, we're we're off. Like, there's something broken with us, versus hunter gatherer brain, like different types of brains, I think evolved for different purposes. And, you know, we all, we have our own incredible use cases, like I know, you mentioned in other episodes, the ability to form connections between really disparate stuff very, very quickly. Oh, my gosh, in companies to have that kind of strategic person who can really see those connections, there's no doubt that each of us kind of can plug in somewhere and we can really shine in different ways. But it's, it's tricky, like you said, if we are neurodivergent, in a neurotypical world, it might mean that we might have to take the initiative on that and, and take charge in different ways and kind of carve our own path. Michele Hansen  57:25But then when we do, like, other people seeing like, hey, like, it's not just me, like, you know, you mentioned the, like the Dani Donovan's ADHD comics. I don't know if you've seen those, like, I'm so appreciative that she's so open about it.  Marie Poulin  57:37Yeah.  Michele Hansen  57:39It just, I think, because we have been made to feel deficient or different, like we, you know, I know I tended to like hold this in, and I realized that even like, most of my best friends didn't know I had been diagnosed as a kid until a couple of years ago, because I just never talked about it. I just, like, accepted it, this thing that was wrong with me, and like, whatever, like, we don't need to talk about it. But then we talk about it, and it doesn't actually, yeah, it doesn't have to be. Like, it can really bring whatever our uniquenesses into the world. Marie Poulin  58:08Yeah, I'm hoping it's sort of becoming a little bit more destigmatized, and on Twitter, and it just feels like I'm hearing more about it, and people maybe are getting a little more comfortable talking about it. And even it seems like things that therapists maybe wouldn't recognize before, like, it's starting to become a little bit more known. And so yeah, I'm hoping that, you know, by sharing some of my own honest insights that that it does help destigmatize it. I think the more people, you know, like you and I talking about it, I do think it just kind of opens up the doors a little bit. So, if we can be part of that then you know, yay. If it helps one other person even just kind of embrace their their inner weirdness a little bit, then we've done our, our duty. Michele Hansen  58:52Yes. Exactly. Or embrace the weirdness of, you know, their loved ones, too.  Marie Poulin  58:58Find your weirdos. Yeah. Michele Hansen  58:59Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's probably a good note to end on today. It has been so fun talking to you, Marie. I feel like we've, we've gone on quite well, like, we normally run half an hour and we're quite over that, but I'm okay with it. I, this is so fun. I'm so grateful that you came on. And so, if people are curious about your courses, or about you, where can they find out more? Marie Poulin  59:26You can check out my website is MariePoulin.com. You'll be able to find the course on there, too. That's NotionMastery.com, pretty active on Twitter. That's that's probably where do most of my chitchat about business and founder life and ADHD and all that sort of thing. So @MariePoulin on Twitter, and if you're curious about more of the, more personal behind the scenes stuff, and plants and gardening, you can check me out on Instagram, too, so. Michele Hansen  59:51Awesome. Thank you so much, Marie.  Marie Poulin  59:54Yeah, thanks for having me. Really fun.

Haseeb Qureshi is a managing partner at Dragonfly Capital, a cryptocurrency venture fund that recently made headlines when they launched their new $225 million fund to invest in DeFi, NFT, Ethereum Layer 2 solutions, and CeFi. Haseeb talks about his history as a poker player, the qualities he looks for when choosing to invest in a crypto project, his thoughts on the Ethereum arms race, and more.   https://saffronacademy.podbean.com/e/episode-1-haseeb-qureshi/ Saffron Socials Web3 app: https://saffron.finance Telegram: https://t.me/saffronfinance Discord: https://discord.gg/pDXpXKY Twitter: https://twitter.com/saffronfinance_   Transcription   Dingo: Hey Everyone dingo here.  And welcome to the saffron academy podcast.  The objective of this podcast is to be an additional educational resource for our viewers, adventures outside the realm of saffron.  In this, we'll be interviewing some of the best, brightest, most tenacious and entrepreneurial minds that the cryptocurrency sector has to offer.  We want to give listeners a glimpse into the minds of some of these incredible achievers, how they got into crypto, what their viewpoints are on certain projects and where they see things going in the future. Saffron finance does not endorse the viewpoints shared in these conversations nor should this be construed as any kind of financial advice.  But we are interested in giving exposure to a wide range of brilliant investors, developers, entrepreneurs, traders and so much more. We really hope you guys enjoy this new segment.  If you have an idea for a topic or a particular guest request, feel free to write into the show at Dingo@saffron.finance .  I hope you guys enjoy this and I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of value this provides.  Now, having said that our first guest is Haseeb Qureshi, a managing partner at Dragonfly capital, a renowned cryptocurrency venture fund.  His track record is nothing short of extensive, he's accomplished a lot in such a short amount of time.  In addition to his time as a managing partner he's also been a programmer, a writer, a teacher, a public speaker and not to mention a bit of a poker aficionado but we will get more into that during the episode proper. I'm really excited to have a chance to be able to interview him and I know you guys are going to love this one, thank you.   Okay Welcome to our inaugural episode, as you might have surmised I'm Dingo and you're listening to the Saffron Academy podcast I'm joined today by Haseeb Qureshi, a managing partner at Dragonfly Capital. Dragonfly recently made the news by launching their new 225 million dollar fund to invest in Defi, NFTs, ETH layer 2 solutions and more.  But before we get into all of that, lets talk a little bit about yourself Haseeb, how are you doing?   Haseeb: Hey Dingo, I'm doing great, how are you doing?   D: I'm doing pretty good, we've been burning the candle at both ends coordinating with our guys in China and I was wondering how everything has been with you because I know you're in Singapore now, so how's everything going over there?   H: I'm from SF actually but I'm in Singapore at the moment I was in Taiwan earlier so I've been globetrotting a bit or rather as much as anyone can given the limitations on travel.  But it's been really amazing to see that, in the last two years, year and a half, we've all been unable to see each other.  And everything's been so digitally mediated it's kind of a bit jarring to be back meeting with entrepreneurs and builders and old friends again.  But its been really wonderful and I miss it so much.   D: What do you notice about travel because I have not been out of the country?   H: It's not, it's not easy, everything is 10 times harder and slightly more nerve wracking.  And the one downside is that vaccines are now being distributed in the US.  And given that I'm a foreigner in every country I travel to, foreigners are always the last on the list to get vaccines.  So if I want to get vaccinated I need to go back to the US, which I'll probably do in a month. But other than that I mean, Singapore is a really burgeoning crypto community, its kind of become the new Hong Kong. So a lot of the exchanges and CeFi companies that were based in Hong Kong where they tend to have their international headquarters where they serve the pan asian market.  Most of them have moved to Singapore because of more favorable regulations.  So as a result Singapore has become this new hotspot for crypto founders and ideas. So it's exciting to see so much of a community forming here.     D: Yeah I think in the US as well, I think Wyoming I believe it was, was the big state trying to entice people to come over.    H: Yeah I don't know well that's working. But there's always these entrepreneurial cities that are trying -- you know.  Miami is actually doing a pretty great job, the mayor, I think it's mayor Suarez, getting a bunch of Crypto people excited and being very open to innovations and giving great incentives for coming over.  But I will say I think in America at least, there's like 500 silicon valley wannabes, and really, there's only one silicon valley.  It's still the epicenter of tech innovation in the US, covid or no covid.   D: Yeah, it's very cool but I wonder about-- you know I have a background in video production and I know Atlanta really helped bolster their economy by having all of these tax incentives for hollywood and all of these other filming companies to help set up shop there.  And I'm wondering is Miami going to be the first to capitalize on that, to drive that business there, is it going to be Wyoming? I think it's kind of fun, anyone's guess now.    H: Well the one thing that's for sure, which is kind of emblematic of you guys is that at least in crypto: it matters less and less where you are.  You know, crypto is such a global phenomenon that, if there's one thing that covid has taught us it's that physical location is no object to building something that is world changing. And so many of the protocols, I mean you guys are one of them, you're a decentralized team, the team behind SFI.  That was something that venture capitalists in particular just did not believe in that two years ago.  You now I remember because when the pandemic started in full force, call it in march, there were so many traditional VCs who were claiming that for funding, the tap is going to turn off until the next year until this is all over. Because VC's have to meet people in person.  You can't run the industry without in person meetings, it was sort of this enshrined almost traditional superstitious belief that in order to invest in something great, you need to meet the founder and go for a walk with them, look them in the eye, kind of see into their soul, and the moment the market started coming back you know in the summer, all that shit went out the window.  And suddenly people were writing these 100 million + dollar growth rounds into companies and moving really fast and no one was meeting anyone in person.  And suddenly you realize “huh, all this stuff that we thought was super important to what we do, turns out, it's nice to have but it's not essential. You can really do it without that.  And I think crypto is a universe where we are clearly not going back to that world.  Obviously we invested in you guys in the middle of the pandemic, and maybe for those who are not familiar Dragonfly struck up a deal to invest in SFI through the treasury, and we did that without ever meeting anyone in person.  And we couldn't of course because members of the team are pseudonymous.  But we were so excited about what you guys were doing, in this new world, this is how things are going to work.  You don't need to meet the people in person if the product and the community is entirely digital in the first place.     D: Yeah that's a really good point.  I always try to look at things like the glass half full  And I look at covid, I look at the paradigm shift that its bringing to the world and I think that if there is a good thing to come out of covid, you're right, it has kind of normalized working from home and by extension, its normalized this sort of global work space where you can coordinate with people from across the globe.  We're doing it right now.  And it's such a cool way to, at least for me in my own experience, kind of be exposed to different sorts of cultures and lifestyles and everything in between.  I'd like to get a little bit, because Haseeb, you have such an interesting backstory, so lets dial it back just a little bit here and just talk a little bit more about how you grew up, maybe your education and then maybe some pivotal moments in your life that have influenced your decision to pursue investing and that sort of thing. Because I think there are a lot of people who are listening to this that are from varying walks of life, have varying amounts of capital, maybe they are playing with the idea of being in this new nascent industry. And they are playing with the idea of well what do I invest in, how do I identify something that is worth investing in, how can I make that distinction? H: Sure sure, so I grew up in Texas, in a small town called Dripping Springs which at the time it was a town of about 2000 people.  And I was pretty much the only brown kid who was in that school system, alongside my two brothers.  It was an interesting place to grow up because it was one of those places that was so boring, that you sort of, your mind had to be elsewhere.  And in a way that was a bit of a blessing in disguise because it led me to really becoming cognizant as an internet native person.  And I think there's sort of a generation around the late 90s that was sort of a first fully online generation.  And that was me I was right on the cusp of when that digital transformation was taking place so I remember as a kid kind of growing up in MSN chat rooms and AOL chat rooms.  I must have been 11 years old when I just really started spending a lot of time in digital spaces and communities.  And finding myself more interested in participating in that world, than I did in my own highschool and middle school.  And so as I got older eventually I went to college, I had a pretty hazy idea of what I wanted to do with my life.  I had an idea that I wanted to do something meaningful but I had no idea what that meant.  I ended up actually when I was 16 year old I ended up getting into playing online poker.  And that was somewhat random, how that started.  I just had a group of friends who had invited me to play poker with them.  And I had never played poker before, like maybe 5 card stud or something but not like real betting poker with money.  So I played the game of poker and I had no idea what I was doing and lost a bunch of money .  Well as a kid at the time it was money but it was like 5 dollars or something.  And I was so frustrated that I didn't know how to play poker or understand the rules really, and kind of betting or folding or how any of this stuff worked.  So I ended up going and reading a bunch of articles about poker and I learned that actually there were a bunch of people playing poker online who were quite young,college kids, who were making a lot of money and doing quite well using statistics and game theory and all of these things that were pushing them to the forefront ahead of the old guard of the traditional poker players who grew up in vegas and dallas card rooms.  I thought that just sounded so cool and I was like I spent a lot of my time online anyway, I bet I can learn how to do this. So I got a start as a 16 year old playing poker online, I didnt have any money so I was doing it under my older brother's name.  And I ended up going from 50 dollars which I got for free from an online promotion and I turned that into 70 thousand dollars over the course of a year.    D: Oh my God   H: And basically by the time I was 19 years old I was ranked as one of the top 10 online no limit hold em players in the world. So I made a lot of money at a young age, and the interesting thing about poker is that it teaches you a lot of lessons but one of the things that I really take away from it.  I had a tremendous amount of understanding and empathy for the people who made a lot of money in crypto.  The reason why I say that is that there are so many commonalities between the way that online poker was back in the day, back in the late aughts, and what I see from the young generation that's making a lot of money in crypto, especially around crypto trading.  So for one it's devoted your career toward a weird and somewhat subversive way to make money that is not traditionally prestigious but is very very undercrowded. You know not a lot of people understand it yet, and you're not going to get accolades from your parents or from a significant others family, they're not going to be very impressed to hear that you're a crypto trader or a professional poker player. But if you're smart and you're analytical and you're willing to do weird things to make money, you can do really well as a lot of people in this generation have.  For some reason they both tend to be quite male dominated, and I notice the cultures are both quite similar, there's a lot of self deprecations, people call themselves degenerates and same thing in the poker world, people lovingly call themselves degens.  There's a lot of crossover and I know a bunch of people who are ex poker players who found their way into crypto as well although for different reasons for different people. And there's something of course about understanding and being able to take intelligent risks, over and over again that I think unites a lot of what I saw in the poker community and what I see in the crypto community.  And another thing is that, because these things are such global phenomena, they are primarily held together by online cultures, as opposed to in person cultures.  So even if you work for google or facebook, although its an online company, your primary culture is with the people around you.  But if you're a crypto trader or a crypto defi farmer or whatever you call yourself, its similar to being an online poker player in that your community is the global community of all the people who do this together, and some of them are competitive and some of them help you and some of them hurt you and some of them share information but then they hold back information.  It's very very similar and so that's one of the things that I feel like I deeply understand about crypto from my background as a poker player, but every generation I think has a hustle.  That young really aggressive and somewhat subversive people are drawn towards that allows them to make a lot of money. And in the late 2000s it was online poker, and in the early 2010s it was fantasy sports and it seems like now crypto trading and crypto trading might be declining now, just because its gotten so much more efficient, now it's defi and defi farming and there will be some next thing, there will be some new frontier, whether its speculating on NFTs or some positive thing that is at this frontier that is finding creative ways to push edges that are farther out than what most normal people can see.  So I was a professional poker player for a while, and quitting poker when I turned 21 and I went back to school and I didn't study anything technical, I studied english and philosophy.  And I ended up moving to silicon valley, took a coding bootcamp and learned how to code and eventually got as job at airbnb as a software engineer working on payments.  So thats where I first caught the crypto bug.  I had known about crypto for a very long time because poker players, like I mentioned theres a lot of crossover there and there are a lot of poker sites that only accepted bitcoin to avoid international banking issues, and I had bought bitcoin before just to buy little things here and there to try it out.  But I never really got the story, like it was just this sort of weird way to buy drugs online that was like cool I guess this should be a thing.  But it was really when i was working on international payments at airbnb, that the crypto story really started to make sense to me.  You know before I was at airbnb I had never touched payments before, but at airbnb its a very international company, its a travel company so you're paying people in 90+ countries in the world.  And your perception about how international payments works, if you haven't spent any time in it, is that you swipe a credit card and your money just gets there and there's some digital pipes in between.  But working on that system, you realize how the presentation of what's happening is completely disanalogous with what's actually on the backend.  What's actually in the backend is that there is no international payment system.  There's a bunch of different payment systems around the world that don't really talk to each other, that are all kind of janky and different, most of them are super old and kind of broken.  There's CSVs being emailed at midnight every night and being manually reconciled every night.  There's places where we can actually digitally pay people and so we are manually sending checks into PO boxes and someone is hitting an API letting us know it's been picked up.  You know there's all this jank on the backend to give the customer the impression that there's an international digital payment system.  That its real time and 24/7 and you can just click a button on a website and your money gets there.  But that's not really how it works, it's this giant mess, and just a big ball of spaghetti.  And as an engineer, when you see that, your first instinct is “oh we should just throw this all out and start over” .  We should build a system that actually comports to the needs that we have as a digital first global real time economy.  As an internet company Airbnb is 24/7 but none of these payment systems are 24/7. Like why are they not? Why do they shut down on weekends? What the hell is this? And that was when I realized “oh, that's what crypto is” crypto is these engineers and philosophers and computer scientists and cryptographers and cyberpunks and economists.   All got together and said “knowing what we know today about peer to peer systems and game theory and cryptography and monetary policy, how would you design a monetary system differently?”  The thing that dawned on me is that all these different cryptocurrencies, especially in 2016 2017 is like why the hell are there so many?  Why is there bitcoin and litecoin, ripple and feather coin and all of these random things?  And it's like oh these are all different answers to the same question of how should a monetary system be constructed.  And I at that point I basically was converted because I believe that what happens in this industry and look I'm not a bitcoin maximalist. I'm not convinced that we are all going to be paying each other with bitcoin or even Ether. But I do believe that what happens in this industry is absolutely going to change the trajectory of money.  And the way we do money 50 years from now is not going to be the way we did money 50 years ago.  So thats what convinced me to quit Airbnb and to go full time chasing the blockchain.  So anyway thats my spiel about leaving Airbnb.   D: It's so funny that everyone I've spoken to seems to have this lightbulb moment, and it sounds like you got it much earlier than most.  It seems like the people who get into crypto at least as the early adopter kind of way, they just really get into it and I can speak to that myself.  I'm coming up on my second year here, so much shorter than your duration in the industry but I think my own external circumstances which you know covid and lock downs and all the money printing are going to help lead me to have a similar “aha” moment”  Do you think it's this contagious thing that's like a mind virus almost where its like once people kind of dip their toe in the pond, they really run the risk of getting really into crypto once they understand like “hey all of these systems that we take for granted that we assume like you said earlier that they work perfectly and are intertwined are actually cobbled together and hanging by a thread and we need some new systems to rise up and replace a lot of that stuff. H: I think so much of it is that, so many people I remember, and you have these conversations now, a little bit less than in 2017, where people will tell you “look, I just dont think bitcoin makes sense. Or ethereum doesn't make sense.  None of this stuff can possibly be valuable or be money”  And you ask them well you think this stuff doesn't make sense, do you understand how money works?  And most of the time the answer is no! Because nobody teaches you how money works, nobody teaches you how the financial system came to be what it is today.  We sort of assume that everything is rational but it's this very path dependent evolutionary process that led us to where we are today.  And I think what you find without fail is that people who understand money and why the financial system is structured the way it is, the best, are the people who are most able to understand what is so compelling about crypto.  That doesn't mean that they necessarily agree or that they think crypto will be the be all end all.  But they understand it.  And most of the time people who just have this instinctive reaction of “oh bitcoin, that doesn't work, no” it's usually because they don't understand money.  And I think for myself, that lightbulb process, was me coming to understand money.  And understand really what it was, as opposed to just simply this function in my life that is taken care of by the powers that be. And when you see how part of becoming an adult, if I can go here, is realizing more and more, that the systems of authority and tradition, sort of the way things are, realizing how arbitrary they are, that is the process of becoming an adult.  Is realizing that the way things around you work, are right because they are this way, but rather they are right because this works.  We wouldn't be here if the system we had around us didn't work.  If it didn't work we wouldn't have made it.  But just because it works doesnt mean its optimal. Doesn't mean that it's what we are going to be doing 20 years from now or 10 years from now.  And you can see that from how much the world around us has dramatically changed in the last 20 years, but its even more obvious in seeing how things have changed in the last two years with the advent of covid.  You can see how quickly and how much things can change, speaking about the thing with meetings.  I don't think business travel is ever going to come back the way it was. Because we realize now how much we were bullshitting ourselves.  About how much travel needed to happen. And in reality meeting someone on zoom or doing a podcast interview is great, its not 100% but its like 85% which is awesome.  The same thing i think is part of how so many people they have their mind set around what crypto is transformed.  Because it's just another element of these things you realize like ‘huh crypto sounds like this really sci fi idea'' of this kind of non sovereign community of online pseudonymous people who created money that's not owned by any country and they cant be stop blah blah blah, it sounds like something out of a sci fi novel, and the first time I really wrapped my head around with what's going on with Ethereum I thought “someone is making this up or this is just some weird corner of the dark net that no one really, ya know, it seems so far fetched” on first hearing, which is one of the reasons why, the thing that is honestly the most convincing about crypto, is not anything like “here's why it makes sense” or “this is more efficient” or “norm efficient” or “this or that”  The most convincing things that convinces people about crypto, is just seeing it survive.   D: Yeah, seeing it persevere   H: That's right. You see it in 2015 and you're like oh this is crazy, bitcoin is at $200, insane.  And then you see it again in 2017 it blows up like crazy and it collapses and you say I'm glad I ignored it.  And then it shows up again and its not going to go away.  People realizer now this thing is not going to fucking go away.  You have to deal with it, you have to understand it.  And that I find is by the most convincing argument in favor of crypto, is just that you can't argue against technology, you cant argue against the future, it just comes whether you like it or not   D: Yeah as much heartbreak as the 2018 crash I'm sure gave out to millions of people, I think it was overall extremely healthy for the industry just for investor confidence going forward   H: Agreed agreed D: So lets dial back a little bit.  Because I want to get to your time at dragonfly capital, which is in my opinion one of the most prestigious venture firms around when it comes to crypto and I'm really excited to hear about some of that.  So you end up leaving airbnb.  Walk us through that decision to get more involved in the industry, I mean I know you have that lightbulb moment but like what was your path forward from that, like what steps did you take?   H: Honest answer is that I had no friggin clue.  I knew I wanted to be in crypto but I didn't know what that meant.  I didn't understand the industry all that well.  And you know my instinct when I'm entering into a new domain that I don't really know very well.  I just go to immerse myself in it.  Just steep my brain in the juices of whatever it is I'm trying to learn and let it sit there and soak stuff up.  So I started spending a lot of time around people I knew who were already in the crypto industry.  I started listening to podcasts, and reading and going to talks like anything that I could.  I started building stuff and prototypes and coding up stuff I was learning about reading whitepapers, just pushing myself as deep into the industry as I could and at first very little of it made sense to me. As I imagine for someone coming in today, very little of what they are interacting with makes any sense either.  Given how much more developed things are from when I started.  I just kind of kept, even when I didn't understand things. Even when things were way over my head, which they were a lot of the time.  I just kind of kept throwing myself in there until eventually, kind of like a child, you just sort of start to see the patterns and understand  oh okay these two things go together, this is what lightning is, and you start to develop your concepts and you uncover more and more of the map.  You know at first I wanted to build a company but then I realized I didn't realize what the hell I was doing.  I didn't know what anyone needed.  So you can't really build something till you know the problem that needs to get solved. And I realized I didn't understand the problems in crypto enough.  And so I decided instead to go join a startup and to go work in the trenches and build up my intuitions that way.  Actually I started before any of that doing some independent security research and me and buddy of mine Ivan, we ended up uncovering a fund running exploit against Bancor which if you remember was one of the first defi protocols that launched in 2017 and had a crazy ICO back then. And we published this vulnerability and that first got us some street cred in the crypto world.  And then I joined this company called 21 which became earn.com which got acquired by coinbase.  Thats where I got to know the CTO of coinbase Balaji Srinivasan and after that I was working on a stable coin startup where I ended up getting to know Naval Ravikant who was cofounder of Angel List and he runs a fund called metastable capital.  And he ended up recruiting me to come on to the investor side and thats how I became an investor.  Thats a long story I can go into that if you want, but I don't want the entire interview just to be the minutiae of my career.     D: No its just that you've had such an interesting path and I think thats a common throughput with a lot of people in this industry.  They think outside the box they're early adopters, they're big risk takers but sometimes those risks pay off.  You're right we could sit here and talk for another hour about your story...but    H: I feel like we should talk about SFI at some point   D: Yeah lets kind of shift this conversation a little bit. But so going forward the Dragon Fly Fund 2, that rolled out in March is a 225 million dollar fund to invest in Defi, ETH layer 2 solutions, NFTs and centralized finance.  So I guess on a grand scale of things, what are specific things you personally look for when you approach investing and say hey I want to believe in these people, I want to put my money into watching this protocol grow. What are some key tenets you look for to identifying a project that has that kind of untapped potential.    H: I think it's, investing has a lot of different frameworks that people apply to it.  I think the most common breakdown are sort of 3 components of early stage investing are: team, product and market.  Team: kind of obvious right? You want to back brilliant early adopting aggressive founders.  And even in the DeFi space where of course many of these projects are decentralized or anonymous there's a community element to it, at the end of the day, there is a generally limited number of people who are driving the majority of the work.  And betting on great visionaries who have a clear sense of where this thing ought to go is a big part of investing.  Second thing is product.  You know, what they are building, how good is it, is it usable, is it delightful, is it 10x better than its competition?  And the third thing is market.  You know you might build and amazing tax optimizing software which is great, but how big of a market is there for that? Like if you build the best tax optimizing software in the world, thats pretty good.  But is it as big as building the next Ethereum? Probably not.  So market is always a question that modulates-- even if you knock it out of the park and you become an absolutely dominate protocol or company, how big can you actually get? which is ultimately as an investor thats what Im thinking about because i'm thinking about, how do I invest in the most important protocol or product of this generation. And ultimately the size of the market is the cap of how big that outcome can be.  So every different investor has a different weighting of how they think of team vs product vs market and I think at different stages those 3 points on that triangle become differently important right? At the very earliest stages, investing is almost all about team. Because often times you're pre-product and you're investing in someone and they just have an idea or theyre like “look me and my two friends have this thing that is a sketch of a demo and we have some mock ups but we need some money to quit our jobs and do this” Well in that case it's pretty much all team.  A lot of times the market is poorly defined or its very likely they are going to pivot, so market isnt as strong of a question and product, there is not product.  As a company develops or a protocol develops, then I think it sort of shifts towards product where its like “ok you're starting to really show your chops and its less about the founders and great story or really charismatic energy thats driving the project forward” and more of a “okay what did you actually build?” Does it work, do people want it, is it usable, are the metrics growing? And as a company or protocol gets more and more mature then the question really becomes about market right? So think for example something like in DeFi, Nexus Mutual, Nexus Mutual right now is the market leader in defi insurance or on chain insurance.   And so when you're betting on Nexus Mutual, part of it is betting on product, part of it is betting on team but its much more so betting on market right? Its a question of these guys are the market leader right now in insurance.  Maybe they'll stay the leader, maybe they'll lose the spot, but so much more of a bigger component of the question is “where is this market going” If this market is not going to grow then it really doesn't matter how much better they do.  Because they are not going to increase the size of the market.  If you think this market is going to 10x, 100x, because more and more people are going to come onto DeFi and more and more people are going to need insurance then well okay probably the market leader is going to continue to be the market leader and that significantly raises the ceiling on what this thing can become.  So thats sort of the way that I think about how to approach investing, it depends on the stage and it depends on the particular type of company it is right? So DeFi vs CeFi so to speak   D: Yeah thats really interesting just hearing that broken down and clearly that is a framework and method that is not only effective but has been incredibly successful for dragonfly. You guys have been backing Compound and Maker and initiatives and protocols.  So, I guess I will pivot to this question, that criteria that you mentioned and those guidelines for identifying what protocols you see potential in, and what protocols you believe in the fundamental of, how does that translate into your decision to invest in Saffron Finance?   H: So we have been tracking the risk tranching space for a while, I mean we've been tracking DeFi for a a long time.  So I think I mentioned literally the very first thing I did in crypto was uh, poking around bancor which was the very first DeFi project on Ethereum.  And early in MakerDAO we invested in Compound pretoken and investors in 1inch and a bunch of the early generation of DeFi projects before DeFi became really hot and so its something we have been thinking about for a very long time is how is risk going to be packaged and sold within DeFi.  Buying and selling risk is one the most common activities that happens in traditional finance.  For good reason because there are some people who have high risk appetite and some people who have very low risk appetite.  And being able to transfer risk from people who cannot afford to have that risk for example a fast tube business that needs to minimize their exposure to weather risk in their supply chain because they run a very tight margin business, to a financial speculator who is able to offset that risk or take on some of that risk in exchange for a premium.  That is one of the most common activities that happens in finance, is ultimately the buying and selling of risk.  So in DeFi naturally as DeFi matures, naturally one of the questions is “How is risk going to be bought and sold in DeFi '' And up till fairly recently the answer was “we don't know”.  Theres no real way to buy and sell risk in DeFi.  It wasn't that long ago that we started to actually get perps in DeFi.  For a long time there was no professional swaps on most of these DeFi.  Certainly no on chain ones.  And then you know I think FTX kind of kicked off a trend of launching lots of perpetuals on DeFi coins through centralized venues.  But for a long time there was really nothing.  And so seeing what SFI was doing in risk tranching, you know risk tranching is one of the oldest methods of being able to buy and sell risk because just think about debt, the way debt is structured is that debt is senior to equity right? So if a company gets liquidated the first thing that happens is that they pay off all of their debt holders, and then everything else goes to the equity holders, that's tranching.  SFI we saw was the first and most robust solution to the question of “How to do risk tranching on chain” and we just thought, I mean kind of looking at those 3 prongs, market? Huge! Absolutely the buying and selling of risk is going to be a huge huge thing in DeFi.  A big part of the reason for why you are not seeing more adoptions from institutions from retail, from whoever, is that DeFi is really risky.  And it's hard for people to control that risk.  And having tools for people to be able to offload that risk, and somebody who is able to take it on in an exchange for premiums, that's such a fundamental financial activity, that that is absolutely going to be essential if DefI takes off.  So markets are big.  Second thing, product? Dope.  Obviously SFI V1, still early and still a lot to figure out.  But you were the first guys to get it working.  It was the first protocol that we saw that was really doing the thing that it said on the tin.  And so we were just tremendously impressed by that.  And its a hard problem and there's still a lot to figure out and to solve.  And then to go to number 3 which is the team.  And we just saw that the team was absolutely fantastic.  And they had been iterating on this and working on this problem before anyone else did.  And they had built a really vibrant and powerful community.  So to us, SFI seemed like a really natural project for us to throw our weight behind.  And I just want to caveat all of this. That this isn't investment advice, I didn't say anything about the SFI token, but we are very excited about the SFI project.     D: Yeah well thank you so much for those kind words.  I was really floored and I still am floored on my day to day too, just being around with these incredibly smart people all the time and interacting with them.  Psykeeper, I don't know, that guy is a genius and incredibly humble too.  So I'm really proud of the team and I'm glad that echoed.    H: Yeah he's incredible.    D: So going ahead from that, and I know one of the other big cornerstones of the Dragonfly Fund 2 is investing in ETH layer 2 solutions and I was wondering, I kind of have been looking at this space myself, and I have been throwing some interest here and there in terms of ETH competitors.  What are your thoughts on that sort of stuff? Do you think it's this digital arms race?  Do you think Ethereum will still reign king? Do you think theres some sort of potential maybe for a lesser protocol like ADA (Cardano), avalanche or polkadot?    H: This is a good question, I think to some degree two years ago I was really unsure what the answer of this question was going to be. I shouldn't say I was really unsure but I was 70% confident ethereum would win and 30% who knows.  Now its more like 90% that Ethereum wins and 10% of who knows.  And the who knows could be any number or players, whether its avalanche or neo protocol or something, even something farther down the list, I don't think BSC is in the running for that but I do think BSC is still an important part of the pantheon of block chains.  I think a lot of this comes from the fact that ethereum is just built such an incredible network effect over the last two years especially with the advent of defi. And so much of what makes ethereum what it is, is not even about the technology.  If you think about it, Ethereum is already something like, depending on how you count it, like 6 to 8 years old.  Because ethereum was originally being worked on in 2013. That's when the whitepaper was originally worked on.  Then they actually launched in 2015 properly which is now 6 years ago.  So ethereum is old technology.  Its been iterated on, and improved on in marginal ways.  There's a reason why Ethereum 2 is a complete rewrite of Eth 1.0, because ethereum 1.0, it basically is like the MS DOS of the crypto operating system.  And inevitably it will be displaced from the top, the question is by what? Is it going to be Ethereum 2.0? Is it going to be one of the layer 2's, such that layer 2 systems on top of ETH 1 that then migrate over to ETH 2 where you're mostly spending time on the layer 2 you're not really interacting that much with Eth 2.0 directly.  And you're just jumping from layer 2 to layer 2, sort of like jumping from different servers in a video game.  That might be the way that ETH 2.0 and the future of ethereum looks.  And thats actually the future that vitalik described in a post that he did late last year.  So, its a little too early to know for certain, but I think what we do know is that ethereum has such a powerful network effect.  Such a powerful community.  You know we talk about network effects very loosely but blockchains are literally networks, so if anything has a network effect its certainly a blockchain.  Part of the reason why so many of the projects have to build on Ethereum is not just because of the tooling and the community and the daily active users and the TVL and all of these other things that makes ethereum what it is.  But the most obvious thing especially for something like saffron, where you guys are a financial protocol, theres this old joke: this famous bank robber finally gets caught by the police.  And the police ask him “why did you rob the bank” and the robbers answer is “well thats where the money is”  And in a way, thats why everyone has to build on ethereum.  Because thats where the money is.  So if you're  financial protocol, and you want to do something really big, you have to go where the money is.  And the money is on ethereum   D: Yeah I echo a lot of that sentiment.  Do you think that other competing technologies like Eth competitors might even be integrated in some sort of form in 2 Eth? Like if they don't replace it outright.   H: I do believe they already are.  Most of these other layer 1's, not most, but many of them, they have EVM compatibility.  So you can just port contracts directly over.  BSC is the most obvious one where Binance Smart Chain is literally just in Ethereum form but avalanche for example, NEAR has one upcoming, a bunch of layer 1s, Tron, have this property-- EVM which is the virtual machine of Ethereum which is all the computer instructions so you can take contracts written on ethereum and just dump them onto another blockchain and they just work out of the box, they have that property because ethereum has become so dominant.  Ethereum contracts are the lingua franca of blockchain smart contracts.  So you know its kind of an uphill battle for those smart contract chains that don't have EVM compatibility such as solana or polkadot.  I think Solana has EVM compatibility on their road map but right now they don't have native compatibility.  So in a way the answer is already yes.  Already they have bent their architectures to say “hey we work with ethereum and the ethereum tool chain” but in addition to that so many of these block chains have ethereum bridges.  I remember back in 2017, so much of the story of polkadot r and cosmos was that there is going to be generalized blockchain interoperability and it was such an important problem because theres so many blockchains and they all need to talk to each other and you can sort of imagine a kind of map of America and a bunch of different states, and every single state or city rather is like a blockchain, and every single city needs to fly to every other city.  That is the world we thought we were going to have to live in, where you need this complicated flight map where it shows how each city is going to talk to every other city.  So like hows Zcash talk to Monero which is going to talk to Tezos which is going to talk to ethereum blah blah blah.  But it turns out  the actual world we live in is one where theres a bunch of different paths to one place, which is ethereum.  Everybody has built a bridge to Ethereum, avalanche has a bridge to ethereum solana has a bridge to ethereum, binance has a bridge to ethereum, everybody bridges to ethereum and nobody bothers bridging to anyone else.  Which tells me more like we're in ancient rome. Where you have this huge tree of paths that all go to one city which is Rome, and that today is ethereum.  Thats the world we actually live in with respect to blockchain interoperability. Which tells you something about the real structure of what is the dominant blockchain and what are the shipping channels, the trade channels that really matter in this new world that we're seeing.  The only trade channel that really matters is the channel between your blockchain and ethereum. And it seems unlikely to change any time soon but we'll see.   D: That is such an interesting point that I hadn't really fully considered, I'm really glad you brought that up for us and our listeners.  As we close out this with respect to your time, I'd like to just ask whats one thing you wish you knew earlier when you started your investment journey into crypto, even before you became part of an institution but you know even as a retail investors, whats some sort of piece of wisdom you can impart onto our listeners    H: Thats a really good question, let me think for a question. Things I wish I knew earlier...I think for me something I wish I knew earlier, when I started investing I was so terrified that I didn't know what I was doing and that I wasn't really qualified to do this.  Because how could anybody be qualified to invest into crypto, the things was just barely invested a few years ago  like bitcoins only been around for 10 years.  Theres these funny postings saying like “oh we want 10 years in crypto” and its like, yeah but crypto has only been around for 10 years.  I guess one thing that took me a long time to internalize, is that you don't really need anyone's permission or approval to be good at this.  You just have to do the work.  And I think it took me a long time to really interalize that and it's something I try to pass on to people at Dragonfly, is that you don't need anybody to approve you or any credentials in order to be great at doing this.  Crypto is so specific and its so new and weird and nuanced and multidisciplinary.  The only thing you need to do is the work.  If you do the work, you learn how the stuff works, you spend your time in the trenches, you read the whitepapers, you play around with the contracts.  If you know it better than everyone else does then you can be really successful in this space.  And thats the beauty of crypto is that its one of the few things that is truly meritocratic, you either get it or you don't.  And if you don't get it, it doesn't matter.  No credential or no having gone to some university or having worked at some company is going to save your ass if you don't actually get it.    D: I love that. That's a great one to go out on man.  I really appreciate you taking the time out to talk to us. H: Of course, this was really great.  I really enjoyed talking with you Dingo. 

In this episode, we speak with Emily McAteer, CEO and Cofounder at Odyssey Energy Solutions and Eitan Hochster, VP of Business Development. Odyssey is a web-based platform that is facilitating rapid deployment of microgrids in emerging markets. Their data platform manages how mini-grid data is analyzed and communicated via software tools, data analytics and marketplaces, enabling mini-grid project developers to connect with investors, suppliers, donors and other market stakeholders. We speak about their work with the Rural Electrification Agency in Nigeria, their work with RBF (Results Based Financing) programs, how their platform is helping government and finance organisations manage their large scale decentralised energy programmes, and how the minigrid financing landscape is changing. Our conversation highlights the importance of operational data, and why aggregating and standardising minigrid data is necessary to accelerate the deployment of minigrid solutions in emerging markets. Contact us at podcast@distributingsolar.com Visit us at www.distributingsolar.com Follow us on Twitter ( https://twitter.com/distrib_solar ) and LinkedIn ( https://www.linkedin.com/company/distributing-solar/ ) Show notes: (2:00) Introduction to Odyssey Energy Solutions, their software platform focused on expanding access and financing into the minigrid sector. How the different stakeholders use their platform (5:30) Their engagement with government organisations, e.g. REA; funds e.g. CBEA (CrossBoundary Energy Access) Types of data they work with, e.g. CRMs, customer management systems, smart meters, inverters. The difficulty of investing in large numbers of minigrids due to the smaller size and vast amounts of data (10:30) Their approach to standardising minigrid data; their work with AMDA (17:00) The potential for Machine Learning in improving their forecasting and accuracy of their data models; meeting the need for asset owners and asset management (22:30) How Odyssey interacts with financing and how it encourages and supports financing into minigrids (26:00) Discussion on Results Based Financing, and how Odyssey works with RBF; strong signs of success in Nigeria (32:00) Emergence of project finance in minigrids (33:30) Odyssey's work on COVID19 with Cross Boundary; looking at consumer demand changes and electrification of health facilities (36:30) Eitan's and Emily's background and how they came into the energy access sector (39:00) The challenges of building Odyssey: trying to build a product for a future market (43:00) Their work with NEP (Nigerian Electrification Program) (44:00) Odyssey's financiers: FACTOR[e] and Shell Foundation (49:00) Where the name Odyssey comes from (49:30) Advice to new entrepreneurs in the energy sector (51:00) Predictions for the next 5 years: more business innovation, greater scale in the off-grid sector, mixing between SHS and mini-grids, maturing of project finance available. Podcast transcript: *Distributing Solar:* Eitan and Emily, thank you so much for joining us on Distributing Solar. *Eitan and Emily:* Thank you for having us. *Distributing Solar:* Odyssey Energy is a really impactful piece within the energy access sector and we're delighted to have you here because we've already had multiple guests speak about their experiences with Odyssey and how they've already been working with Odyssey Energy Solutions. According to the latest numbers on your website, you're already working in over 13 countries,  have facilitated over $350 million into microgrids and supporting over 500 product developers. It would be great if you could start by providing us with an introduction to Odyssey for our listeners who don't already know about Odyssey and the work that you do. *Emily:* Odyssey is a software platform with the mission to enable large-scale capital deployment into solar mini grids, and other types of clean, distributed energy technologies in emerging markets. Our fundamental goal is to get lots of money moving into new types of energy assets to expand access to power. And the way that we do that is we build a data-driven investment and asset management platform that makes it easy to both evaluate investments in the sector and then manage a portfolio of investments once you've deployed capital. *Distributing Solar:* How does a partnership typically work for you? Do you work directly with the mini grid developers or do you work also with financiers? *Eitan:* We have all types of different users of our software and part of the theory of Odyssey from the beginning has been that it would make the whole sector move more efficiently if data could be easily shared between stakeholders. The idea being that if you're going to electrify hundreds of millions of people using distributed energy, that's a lot more data that needs to be evaluated, a lot more smaller projects creating a lot more information. And so, what we want out of Odyssey is to serve as a platform connecting different types of users. The core software might be the same for everybody, but they're different types of users. So a mini grid developer has the ability to use our tools to evaluate a project that might be in their pipeline. So we have technical and financial feasibility tools that are available. Similarly, an investor might be able to receive a proposal and view the technical and financial analysis has been done on Odyssey. And then, on top of those types of interactions, we have  been focusing a lot on managing these large government and donor backed financing programs, essentially serving as a software platform where a government can collect proposals for publicly-backed financing of mini grids and solar home systems. And so for them, they have the ability to collect standardized proposals and really run their programs much more efficiently, ultimately allowing them to deploy more capital into these programs and to have these programs run much more efficiently, whereas in the past there has been a lot of delays in program implementation. And so hopefully, you know what we're doing and what we're seeing in our early projects is that the results are happening faster. *Distributing Solar:* And if I understand how the platform works it seems as though it's a software platform that allows product developers to enter in key information about a project that they're either planning to do or have started working on. Perhaps, information about the capacity of mini grid, et cetera, and then to match that with financiers who are interested in investing in mini grid projects. And then also then to open up that monitoring process as the grids are installed, implemented, managing information. So maybe if you could speak about the different types of data that you're pulling in, what are the analytical components that are really core to Odyssey's platform. *Emily:* Yeah, so just a clarification. We  do a little bit less of the matchmaking as you described and typically the way that our platform is deployed is that we will partner with a financier or a financial institution that's looking to deploy capital into the sector. And then we use that platform to standardize all of the data and interactions that that financial institution will have with all of the different stakeholders engaged in the process. Just to give you a couple of examples of what those institutions might look like, one of our biggest customers is the rural electrification agency of Nigeria that's running now about a half a billion dollar program to finance solar home systems and mini grids in Nigeria. And so what our platform does is manages the entire life cycle of the investments that the REA is making and so any private sector company that's looking to receive financing for their distributed energy assets from Rio will go through a process in our platform where they apply for financing, they submit on a rolling basis, proof that they have connected customers. And then finally they received their financial disbursements based on the results that they've achieved in terms of electrifying customers. Another example, that's the same technology, but kind of a different use case is a commercial investor, like Crossboundary Energy Access. So, CBEA is a commercial project finance fund for mini grids. They're actually the first mini grid, asset funding in the market and they use our platform to manage their entire portfolio. And so when they need to ask critical questions about are the operators that we've invested in meeting their operational agreements, how is our portfolio performing in terms of system performance and economic performance, we collect all of the data from their systems that are in their portfolio and help them answer those questions. On the type of data that we collect again, it really spans the life cycle of a project. Upfront we’ll standardize the process of the techno-economic data that needs to go into planning a mini grid project. So that's information about where the project is located, what the capital expenditures of the project are expected to be, what the forecasted energy at the site will be. We run all of that through a standardized financial model and so it becomes easy to aggregate many projects up using  this sort of standardized data format into a portfolio that can then be more assessed by a financer who's looking to make an investment into many of these projects. Then once the project is up and operating, that's when we start collecting operational data and we plug into a number of different data sources, all which feed us very high volumes of granular data directly from the system. We'll plug into the system inverter, we’ll plug into the smart meter, we'll plug into other operational systems that the developer might be using like a customer relationship management system. And we pull all that together into a standardized data model that then allows for analysis and analytics on the portfolio as a whole. *Distributing Solar:* When you're speaking about the data sources that are being poured into the platform, how does that process typically work? Are you connecting with the mini grid operators, their software control systems? Do you have to install smart meters or is there a lot of customization that's required for companies to join your platform? *Eitan:* Yes, so on the data monitoring portion of our software, we've built our big data engine to be able to take in data from lots of different sources. And so the most direct way would be to integrate with smart meters and smart inverters to collect data on energy generation, energy consumption and payments. But it can also look like pulling in data from other software platforms, like payment platforms, or CRMs. And then for areas where there aren’t smart meters available, we also have the option for uploading a custom data via something like a CSVs. We might have an onsite data logger and export data from your site and you can upload it that way. The point being that what we want to make most possible for people is to gather and aggregate all the data surrounding these sites and make it easy to analyze and get their hard questions answered in one place. *Emily:* Yeah, and I think, just to provide some more context, the main challenge that we're trying to solve with our platform is it's very hard to invest in a portfolio of mini grids. Unlike, let's say a typical energy project, like a big IPP project, right? Because what you're doing, if you're putting, let's say a hundred million dollars into mini grids versus a grid scale project, that hundred million dollars is going into lots of small projects. And each of those small projects generates about the same level of data, if not more than, you know, a single large energy project would. And so there's a whole new set of challenges that need to be solved in order to move lots of capital into this nascent market. And so, from our  we're really trying to solve that, that data challenge. How do we make it possible for investors to get the questions answered and to get the information that they need to feel confident in their investments and deploy the type of capital that needs to go into the sector for it to really scale. *Distributing Solar:* Perfect. That's great. And I'd love to hear more about the standardization.  As you were beginning to develop your product and scoping out the product features and the platforms, what were the challenges that you were facing with regards to standardization of either financial information or operational information *Emily:* As mentioned, we standardized data at different points in the life cycle of an investment. We have standardized diligence data and then we standardized data once a project is operating. On the diligence side, it’s less of a data and technology problem and more of a mindset, a new way of thinking about how you diligence these assets. Traditionally, with energy investments you would have a very customized manual process. You'd probably hire a diligence consultant who would build a custom model for that project and really kind of go through a rigorous and project specific process. And what we're trying to do with Odyssey is say, you know, you can't afford to do that if you're trying to diligence a hundred projects at once, right? And you need to diligence a hundred projects at once if you're trying to move a lot of capital into the sector quickly. And so what we've done is say, you know, what the unit economics of these projects are not fundamentally different. We think that we can basically standardize the process for assessing  the opportunity of a project and the way  to model out the unit economics of those projects. And we can do that in a format that can kind of cover lots of different types of projects across different geographies and different technologies. And so it's still an evolving process and it takes a lot of innovative thinking to do something differently than, kind of, the way that investment has happened in adjacent sectors over many years. But we really think it's critical to be able to move money at scale.  We feel that standardization is going to be essential to enabling investment in the sector at scale. *Eitan:* I would also add that what I think is important to highlight is that what we're doing is standardizing the process of evaluating these sites and then ultimately monitoring them. But in the evaluation stage, we're not standardizing, we're not saying, you know, each mini grid is going to have this many customers with this many kilowatt hours. We're actually allowing for very specific and granular assumptions to be made about each and every site. But because we're powered by software tools, we can standardize the way that they’re analyzed. And so ultimately, what you end up having is actually probably better analysis because frequently what happens now is that you'll have, you might have a consultant who's saying, trying to evaluate with the feasibility of a hundred sites for a country. And what they do is they can't go build, you know, a hundred different financial models for each one of these sites. And so they're going to make some best estimates. And they're gonna say on average, you know, each site is going to look like this. But actually, if you have good software and what we're providing, then you can have a hundred different sets of assumptions that actually match each site because we've taken survey data, let's say from each and every site, but because analyzing them through software, we can in more efficient way, get to results that are standardized and easy to evaluate. But B they're more specific to each and every site. I think that's part of the benefits as well. *Distributing Solar:* I'll be curious to understand how much of it is facilitating that analytical process and how much of it is leveraging historical data and historical information that has been collected in the past that helps you better produce a model that's able to predict future financial cash flows, or financial information from the site. Is it purely a question of fine tuning and adding additional resolution to the models that you can create? Or is it also about, leveraging, as you say, the big data that you have access to and the historical information that's available. *Eitan:* So, first I want to point out that it's important to point out that we don't own the data that developers or governments or financiers put into our software. And so we can't necessarily be using that data, in ways, uh, you know, we can't be like publishing benchmarks or anything without consent from our users. So that's that's first. But I do think what you're hitting on is correct that what we're trying to do by putting all of the data from the lifecycle in one place is allow people to learn over time and get better in how we evaluate these sites. And so if you have, your feasibility study, if you have your financial projections in the same database as your actual results, then you can learn as you go and you can. And then you can fine tune your assumptions because, ultimately, we don't really know the answers to what will energy growth look like in year three or four or five or 10 when a mini grid arrives in a community. People have guesses, but we don't really have hard answers powered by data. And so that's what we're trying to provide to people, to ultimately, make better decisions and deploy capital more efficiently. *Emily:* one of the reasons why we originally built the Odyssey platform was my co founder and I were mini grid project developers ourselves, and we were spending a lot of time talking to investors, trying to get them to invest in a large portfolio of mini grids in India and Tanzania. And the response that we kept getting from investors was, well, there isn't enough data in the market for me to benchmark anything that you're telling me. So we we'd build these models, we'd say, okay, we expect our average revenue per user to be X or, you know, the average cost per connection to be Y and the investors would tell us, you know, there, there's just not enough data out there for us to evaluate whether or not these are reasonable assumptions. So fundamentally, what we thought is, hey, can we standardize the way that these metrics are collected and reported so that we can get that information into the sector and increase investor confidence from the data. So one of our partners on the Odyssey platform is the African Mini Grid Developers Association and what's really exciting about the way that we're working with them is we intake data from all of their members who are reporting on all of those metrics that investors care about. You know, key cost and sort of financial parameters and scale parameters and we're standardizing on that in the platform and then enabling AMDA through data agreements with their members to publish that into the market. And, actually, their benchmarking report just came out which is super exciting and it's the first time the market has had really comprehensive data on various parameters of nearly every mini grid that's operating in Africa. And that type of information that comes from a centralized place in a standardized is going to be absolutely critical for moving the market forward because it gives investors something to benchmark when they're receiving investment materials from new projects. *Distributing Solar:* That's great. I think that's a really helpful context to think about. And, building on from that and some of your comments about the challenge of innovation, what do you see as the next steps and the next goal for Odyssey? What are you building towards and what are your aspirations for the next, say, two to five years. And, similarly, what are the challenges that you're facing at the moment? *Emily:* Yeah, lots of things in our plans.  So one thing that just to kind of tie what we were just talking about,  to tie that in, I really believe that there's a ton of opportunity for machine learning. Now that we've kind of completed the loop in terms of the data from project origination through operations. So we're really excited about the possibilities of having enough data in the platform that we can start to train our system to understand, okay, here's what we forecasted about this site. And then here's how the site is operating. Can we get better at improving our models for forecasting and get more accurate about our predictions for a site. And of course, that's going to be the most important for facilitating investment into the sector if we can say, hey, our models are getting really good at saying, this is how people in this we'll use power. This is the size system that we know we need. And so these are the financial returns that we expect from this project. So as we build up more data in the platform, there's a ton of opportunity for machine learning and that'll be a big thing that we focus on. And then the other thing that we're really focusing on is meeting all of the needs of asset owners in the market. And we say asset owners because it could be investors that are owning a portfolio of microgrids or it could be actual operators of microgrids that have investors, have special purpose vehicles (SPV) for their investments, and need to report to investors and need to do really good data analytics across lots of different systems. So we see in more developed markets the need for asset management for investors across the board. I mean, it's a very common technology need. There's a number of software solutions. And our goal is to serve that market, for the mini grid in industry with the energy sector in Sub-saharan Africa. We've got a number of anchor customers on the platform that are helping us understand what is unique to the mini grid sector and what is required for full investment asset management. And there's lots of new features and functionalities that we'll be building over the next few years to continue to meet those needs, especially as more and more of these types of users join our platform and start to scale their investments. *Distributing Solar:* And one of the things that you just mentioned that I thought it was useful in trying to hel, mini grid developers actually understand how people will use power is, we hear a lot about how a lot of mini grid developers will initially start out by sizing their mini grids to say, you know, 40 kiloWatt hours, because they've conducted a survey and people think they will be watching the TV for five hours a day and running the fan, et cetera. But when it comes to actually using it on a longer term basis, there is a lot of interest at the beginning typically and people all willing to pay for it. But eventually, some of the cost constraints kick in, and perhaps it's also an issue about the novelty wearing off. Have you seen that reflected in the data that you've been collecting or have you had to program that into your models at all to reflect some of the behavioral elements behind the mini grid sizing and the financial opportunity? *Eitan:* It's largely a mix, right? I mean we are seeing a lot of different results from different countries and different types of developers. I mean, I think that it is rather idiosyncratic, right? I mean, you have, some mini grids are more based in marketplaces and some are based in communities. Some you have developers who are doing demands stimulation interventions. And so therefore, hopefully they're seeing stronger results. And so, I think we do see a wide gamut, in that regard. We're not going to reflect that in our models per se, only because we're going to leave that up to the developer to put in their assumptions about the growth over the long term. And then, you know, ultimately when we monitor sites we can see how the reality stacks up against projections. I mean, I think we are doing some interesting work. We're working with the CrossBoundary Innovation Lab which is out there to test different strategies in the sector and they're using Odyssey to test these different interventions or different types of appliances, or are least, in communities where there are many grids. And ultimately they're using Odyssey to track how these interventions affect demand. And so, we're hoping to be part of some of these solutions that help and is trying to really answer some of these hard questions. *Emily:* Yeah, I mean, if I had a dream, it would be that, one day, our models are so good that they can say, okay, if X, Y, and Z is true in a community, your demand will be this many kilowatt hours per day and this is a size system you need. No one's there yet in the second. But our job as a data platform is to enable all the efforts to crunch the information that will eventually get us there. So, as Eitan mentioned, this work with the innovation lab is really exciting because we're processing something like a billion data points for them on consumption and payment data so that they can draw conclusions about what happens when you provide a loan for an appliance to a household. Or, some of the other things are prototyping. And the goal is that then they can draw conclusions about which business models make the most sense. And which variables play the biggest role in improving the unit economics of a mini grid. *Eitan:* And I think also the other thing I'd say is that Emily mentioned machine learning but we're also just learning ourselves in that through our software we've run a few large scale feasibility studies  for government entities in different countries in Africa, and that involves taking ground survey data. So asking people, what appliances do you have? How much would you be willing to spend? And then turning that into load projections andProjected energy consumption. And so, I think that we're getting better at translating the survey answers into actual projections. Certainly machine learning down the line, but also just, we're getting better at that and I think the whole sector is as well. *Distributing Solar:* Great So I think that's provided us with a great overview of what Odyssey does and what your product focus is. For you as a company, what is your business model? Are you looking to be a software provider for this platform, or, do you also have goals on the financing side as well? We'd love to hear more about that. *Emily:* Our ** goal is to be the underlying software and technology for financing institutions. So we don't have plans to be one ourselves but rather to support any fund or facility that's putting money to work in the distributed energy sector. *Eitan:* Originally we had the theory that we could have a financing marketplace for distributed energy projects. And so developers would design a portfolio of projects, standardize it, make it easy to understand and then publish it and raise capital through Odyssey. I think what we realized pretty quickly thereafter is that the market wasn't quite there yet in terms of having enough volume of investors to make that a worthwhile approach. Instead what we uncovered from spending some time in the sector is that the market is being driven and the capital, the larger portion of the capital being invested is still driven by these government and donor programs. And so, we shifted a bit instead of an open marketplace, kind of a, you know, like Airbnb type thing for mini grids, instead it's more of a we're providing a platform for large financial institutions or governments who are financing these projects to run their funds and their facilities through the portal. So that's on the financing side and then there's a whole other aspect of the asset management and the asset monitoring once sites are operating, which is sometimes connected but at different revenue streams in a different business model approach. *Emily:* Yeah, and the asset management piece was really built around the understanding or the realization that every financier's needs are going to be different in terms of the questions that they need to answer for their portfolio and the types of data that they need to collect across projects and across different operators. And so what we really focus on is having a way to standardize the data model that's underlying all of the analytics so that we can essentially serve the data up and say, okay, you've got questions that you want answered, we're going to present very complex and high volume data to you in a way that you can actually work with it and get your questions answered. So those questions look very different for a user of our platform, like the Rural Electrification Agency or the World Bank who want to know, let's say, how many connections have been electrified or what's the greenhouse gas impact of our financing program versus a commercial investor that might need to know something more like what's the average revenue per user of my investments in this Northern region of Tanzania or compare that to Nigeria or whatever the kind of investment analysis they need to do are. And so we're starting to recognize that, while the questions are always different, the kind of underlying technology and data needs are the same. And we can meet a lot of those needs with our asset management platform. *Distributing Solar:* And how have you seen the market evolve in the past few years? I guess it's an incredibly fast moving market. It seems as though every year there's records being hit with regards to investments or commitments from the World Bank and so on.  Has that impacted your business and what has been your observations in working in the sector over the last few years? *Emily:* So one of the biggest market developments that's impacted our business and the sector as a whole is the emergence of results-based financing mechanisms  to provide subsidies to mini grids and solar home systems. You know, when I first started working in the sector, everyone was afraid to talk about the fact that many of these projects require a subsidy to be economically viable, even though in, developed countries when we embarked on our, you know, let's say our rural electrification plans here in the US, it was all heavily subsidized. That framework has now shifted in the market and there's a growing acceptance and understanding that subsidies are an inherent part of rural electrification and if you get them right and if you make them very systematic, it becomes much easier to get the other types of capital into the market that are required for scale. And so we've, over the past few years, have been working on an initiative that's now being led by the Sustainable Energy For All called the Universal Energy Facility. And the the principles behind it are, if you have a facility that's very streamlined, and has a very clear systematic per-connection subsidy for a mini grid project or for a solar home system project, that's something that commercial investors can then rely on and they can come in alongside that systematic subsidy and provide the commercial capital necessary to get the project off the ground. And this was a pretty new and radical concept a few years ago. And now it's one that's being widely accepted across the market and we're seeing more and more governments and development, finance institutions, institutions, and donors realize the benefits of a more streamlined RBF. And what was exciting about that for us is our software really helps to speed up the process of facilitating this type of funding. Cause you can imagine that if you're trying to issue funds on a per-connection basis, that is a lot of data to process, right? You've got like tens of hundreds of thousands of kids, actions being submitted and you've got information about each of those connections that you need to review. You need to be certain that it's a live connection before you disperse funding based on it. And we really built a lot of technology in our platform to make that process very straight forward, both for the company that's looking for the financing and then also the facility that's running the results based financing facility. And with the introduction of smart meters into the market, we're able to actually reduce the burden of verifying a live connection. So we can actually plug into a smart meter, run an algorithm on the data that's coming from that smart meter to determine whether or not it's a valid live connection and basically put a stamp of approval on a connection in order for a financier to feel comfortable paying out that connection on a results based basis. *Distributing Solar:* That's great. So you're also providing the investors and I guess the donors with evidence of the connection actually existing and just taking the mini grid developers word for it, or having to go on the ground and validate that data. What are your general thoughts and perspectives on the importance of results-based financing? It certainly seems to have a lot of, Strong supporters I would say within the energy space would be really curious to hear what your perspectives on it are. *Emily:* There's two things that I really like about results-based financing. One is that it directly ties capital to results. And so I think it's one of the most efficient ways to put concessionary finance to work. So just to give you an example, we're running a large results based financing program right now for mini grids and solar home systems in Nigeria. And the World Bank, and it's part of the Nigeria Rural Electrification Agency, they can log into our platform and see directly how many connections their money has gone to fund. And so you can get some really great statistics on whether or not the capital that you've allocated for a financing program is going to the intended results. And they can see it, you know, how many of the connections are households versus businesses? How many households are the head of the house was a woman. I mean, all types of metrics that they care about, they can actually directly tie to their financing, which is something that's pretty hard to do for other types of financing programs. And then the other thing is, I mentioned this earlier, but the other reason why I think results based financing makes so much sense is that it's very systematic. It's something that a company and then it's commercial investors can rely on. They can say, okay, if you go execute, you will get this subsidy in the same way that, you know, other countries had things like feed in tariffs. Whereas it was a form of subsidy that could be built into the financial model so that commercial investors know what their returns will be, taking into account the subsidy, which of course improves the unit economics of the project and makes it easier to invest in these projects. *Eitan:* Yeah, I would just add that I think to a certain extent it's an elegantly designed thing because you're allowing the private sector to sort of do its thing to a certain degree without the government deciding from a top down perspective what are the best sites. You're actually allowing the people who will be owning the assets and managing the assets, if you're building your RBF and sort of this open call model, like in Nigeria, they're the ones who are finding sites, and submitting them  for RBF. And like Emily said, they're only getting grants or concessionary finance once they build the sites. And I think, you know, if you look at the actual results so far in Nigeria, it's very encouraging that these RBF programs are seeing results way faster  than what we've seen in the sector before. And I think that's in large part due to this RBF structure and the fact that, as you were mentioning before, through Odyssey it does allow for running these programs at a much bigger scale. *Distributing Solar:* How do you see the market, especially for mini grids evolving, and it would be great to hear your thoughts on this. Certainly, I think the need for subsidies is really paramount, as you've already mentioned Emily, and we've heard that from a number of guests as well, because recognizing that subsidies are required to reach in particular last mile customers or particularly remote communities or particularly low income communities as well. How do you see the market evolving? Do you think it will continue to be driven by a mixture of government funding, multilateral institutional funding, for instance, or impact investors and philanthropy? Have you seen kind of shifts with regards to the market dynamics and how do you think it will evolve in the next five to 10 years? *Eitan:* I think, and again, going back to Nigeria, because it is sort of the most ambitious program in the World Bank's NEP program, you know, part of their theory was we're going to have these grants, these concessionary finance, and that will bring in private capital because it will lower the risk. And that was the theory. I think it was a real question at the beginning whether or not that would actually. And I think that what's exciting is that we're actually seeing that activity on our platform now where the local commercial banks are coming in and they're saying, all right, these projects are getting built, are getting financed. The grants are happening. This is sort of working as designed. We're ready to start looking at this in a serious way, right. We're ready to allocate resources to understand the sector, which is a big step for these banks which are rather risk averse. And so I do think that this model is proving to be effective and that the combination of concessionary finance from multilateral Institute and local commercial capital can be the path forward for the sector. *Emily:* I think the other trends that we are starting to see, and we'll see more of over the coming years, is availability of project finance. So, in the early days of the mini grid sector, the only available finance for mini grid developers was corporate level, basically mostly corporate level equity, right? Like there were impact investment firms that were willing to fund the company, they would build projects on their balance sheet. And that's obviously a pretty inefficient way to do project development because then you've got the money tied up in those projects for a long period of time. And I think with CrossBoundary leading the way and the other investors following suit, we'll see more project finance available, either in the form of project equity or project debt, which will enable much faster development and, therefore, significant scale in project development. *Distributing Solar:* Great, so it seems as though you are seeing also the effectiveness of commercial capital being crowded into either grant funding or philanthropic funding as well. So that's great to hear. Perfect. I'd like to hear and discuss the impact of COVID-19. It seems as though suddenly, from publications and news reports and articles that you've produced,  Odyssey has been doing quite a lot of work within the COVID-19 and coronavirus response, and particularly in partnerships with Rockefeller Foundation and Shell Foundation in recent months. We'd love to hear more about the work that Odyssey has been doing in the sector and what your focus has been so far. *Emily:* Sure we have been doing a lot of different things related to COVID-19 and thinking about its impact on the African countries where we work. So, one thing we've been doing is we've partnered with the CrossBoundary innovation lab to analyze the impact of COVID-19 on consumer behavior of mini grid customers. So we've been publishing a monthly update with CrossBoundary pulling together all of the data from operating projects on the ground to say, are we seeing things like a drop in consumption or a drop in revenues from mini grids due to COVID-19? And it's actually been really interesting because we'd expected a much more dramatic impact on mini grid operations. And we've seen it's sort of been a bit of a mix but we're continuing to watch really closely and engage with what the data is telling us about how COVID is impacting mini grid power consumption and payments. The other big piece of work that we've embarked on is supporting efforts to electrify health facilities. So I think this is something that has been a topic for a long time, but has certainly been highlighted with the COVID crisis is that there are many many rural hospitals and clinics and even peri-urban hospitals and clinics that do not have access to reliable power. And it is impossible to provide high quality healthcare if you can't do things like refrigerate medicines or vaccines or run ventilators. And so, we partnered with the Rockefeller Foundation and the Shell Foundation to provide our software technologies in support of donor programs that are being launched to accelerate electrification of health facilities. And so those resources look like using our data platform to identify and prioritize health facilities that need distributed energy projects deployed onsite. And then to manage the kind of rollout of large scale health electrification programs. And one of the key reasons why we structured our work with the Rockefeller and Shell Foundations in the way that we did is that, you know, in moments of crisis, it's easy to kind of say, okay, we've just got to deploy lots of energy projects. We need to get them out there quickly and let's just focus on kind of the emergency response. But these are long term assets that are going to be operating for a decade and so, you know, a lot of thought also needs to be put into how do we make sure that these are sustainable projects that even when the CVOID crisis is over, these hospitals have access to reliable power and have the right agreements in place for The project operators to continue to maintain and operate the system. And our software enables tracking projects over the lifetime of a project and even plugging into that system and making sure that it's continually providing reliable power over the lifetime of the of the project. And so we've partnered with a number of governments and donor institutions and development finance institutions to deploy this technology and give them the resources they need to think about the long term sustainability of these health electrification programs that they're initiating. *Distributing Solar:* Great, thank you. And I'd love to discuss more about both of your personal backgrounds and your route to working both in the off grid space and Emily for you as well, and, starting Odyssey as a company. *Eitan:* Yeah, so my background is in financing renewable energy. So early in my career, I was working in venture capital, private equity, focused on renewable energy and clean tech. And then, after doing a year working at mobile payments software focused on emerging markets, I did, graduate studies, an MBA and a master's of environmental studies and that's where I really spend time focusing on renewable energy finance. And from there went to Lumos Global, a solar home system provider with operations in Nigeria and Ivory Coast. And so that was my first experience in the off grid space where I, you know, directed business development and I was in charge of our asset financing strategy and how we wanted to go about, you know, much like we were talking before, is turning this from a corporate equity financing to an asset back project finance type financing. So I worked there for a few years before very happily joining Odyssey a couple of years ago. *Distributing Solar:* Great, and how about you Emily? How did you come to start Odyssey? And what was the path for you like? *Emily:* Yeah. So I got into the energy access sector about a decade ago. I had a Fulbright fellowship to study off grid solar in India. What's pretty amazing is like, looking back in, let's say around 2010, the question was how our company is going to convince rural communities that, you know, small solar lanterns made sense. And if you go into any rural community in India today, it's like a no brainer. You see solar lights everywhere.  I've seen the sector change so dramatically over the past decade.  But I definitely never expected to start a company in the space. I kind of call myself a reluctant entrepreneur. I was never someone that thought I would be an entrepreneur. But Odyssey really came out of my experience. My cofounder and I built a mini grid development business that was a subsidiary of a large renewable energy company based in the US. And so we were developing projects in India and Tanzania and we saw the market emerging, kind of, went through a lot of the challenges of trying to develop and finance mini grid projects ourselves, and felt like there were some things that we could build for the sector that would streamline the process quite a bit. And so, in some ways, we sort of fell into building Odyssey cause we felt like the sector needed it and then, obviously, as the market has kind of changed and matured over the past three and a half years, our product and our business has as well. *Distributing Solar:* And I'd love to hear a bit more about that process of building the company. What were the most difficult things that you had to deal with?  What were the biggest challenges for you as you built the company? And were there any significant changes in direction or strategy that you had to deploy? *Emily:* Yeah. One of the biggest challenges in the early days of envisioning Odyssey was that we were building a solution for the direction that we expected the market to go, right? So the mini grid market is still nascent. And it was quite nascent, three and a half, four years ago when we were starting to kind of envision Odyssey, but we knew that it was going to scale and we wanted it to be part of the solution that helped at scale. So unlike, let's say an eCommerce company, right. Where it's like, okay, I know that there's a market of consumers out there and I just need to build the right product to sell to them, we were building the product that would allow those customers to be there. And so our platform is intended to catalyze the market rather than serve an existing market. And that's always been the challenge of Odyssey is, kind of, understanding where the market is going. Making sure that we're kind of building at the pace of the market and building what the market needs today but with an eye towards, where we want the market, where we expect the market to be in five to 10 years. *Distributing Solar:* And as a result, have you had to change strategy? Has the pace of the market hasn't grown quite as quickly as you expected? What were the implications for how you had to go about running and building the business? *Emily:* Yeah, I think Eitan mentioned our original plan was to develop a pipeline of projects, standardize those, aggregate them into a portfolio and put them into a marketplace where investors could, diligence them and invest. And the market clearly wasn't ready for that framework yet. And, part of that was because the, so much of the capital that was being deployed into the market and is in today is continually being deployed into the market is concessionary financing from governments and donors and DFIs.  And so I wouldn't say it was a pivot, but we certainly launched a new version of our product that was aimed at those types of financiers. And that was really essential for us because it enabled us to get lots of capital on our platform, lots of projects on our platform and then start to see projects getting financed and moved. And in terms of scale, I wouldn't say that the market is scaling slower than we expected. I think it's scaling pretty much at the pace that we expected and we've been kind of following that scale. So our newest, our newest products are really oriented around companies, either commercial investors or asset owners, who are starting to see the type of scale required to have asset manage technologies. And we've launched that product with the leaders in the space. And then we're sort of expecting that we'll start to see more companies that look like those leaders as the market as a whole starts to scale And so we are very much building what we think the market will need over the next five to 10 years. And it's fun because it allows us to build according to our vision and our dream of where we want the sector to be. But it's also often a challenge too, as one of my mentors said to me that, you know, being early in a market often feels a lot like being wrong. And I think that that's something that we think about a lot, like, how confident are we that we're building what the market needs? How confident are we that the market is going to go in the direction that we expect, that we will start seeing solar mini grids be the primary way that unelectrified communities are electrified over the coming years. You have to have a lot of optimism to work in the sector and in a lot of faith that the sector is going to go in the way that we want it to go. *Eitan:* I think from that, the flip side is there’s a level of excitement there, right? Because we, as Emily was saying, A) we have the ability to kind of co-develop our products along with the market. And 2), you know, it kind of forces us to be flexible and listen to the market a lot because we have our ideas and we consider ourselves a leader in the sector and we have opinions about where things should go, but we also have to do a lot of listening. And so I think that lets us be part of the conversations we're reflecting in our software where we're sort of the go-between between different stakeholders. *Emily:* Yeah, I think that like early days of the Nigeria Electrification Project is a good case study of this because it's not like they necessarily knew at the outset of this project that they needed software to manage NEP. Like now it seems very obvious that if you're managing a project of that scale, you would need technologies to help you streamline it. But the origins of us getting involved in NEP is that I was presented being at a small workshop. And this was back in the days when we still had this kind of more marketplace concept to Odyssey. And one of the World Bank folks who was working on NEP saw what we'd built and said, Oh my gosh, this is exactly what we need for Nigeria, we're about to launch the largest rural electrification program in history. There's going to be so many dimensions to it. So much data. We need something to manage that all and nothing really existed. Right? And so we were able to kind of repurpose and adapt and customize and build our platform in lockstep with NEP as it was launching so that, you know, by the time that it got off the ground, we had the right solution in place to support that project. And then obviously our goal is that we're going to see lots more of these really large scale financing projects come online in the next few years. But it's definitely been a very iterative process. It wasn't totally clear exactly what the market was going to need. And we started building and we kept building and we kept building until I feel like we're in a really good spot and have built what the market needs where it is today. *Distributing Solar:* Yeah, absolutely. And so my day job is a VC and I work in the energy space as well. And I think that is exactly one of the challenges that we think about. Are we right to make that investment and that bet on the company, or are we either just too early or totally wrong and that's not what the customer wants as well. And I guess related to that, if I understand correctly, I think Odyssey is at least partially VC backed. We'd love to hear about your fundraising process. Have you had it be a challenge to bring investors on for other people to see the vision that you have and to get other people and investors excited about your company. *Emily:* We have incredible funding partners. We're very lucky for that. Odyssey was, sort of, co- built, with Factor[E] Ventures, which is a venture firm that's based here in Colorado, and is actually the reason why Odyssey is also in Colorado. I was an entrepreneur in residence with Factor[E] for about four to five months as we were coming up with the concept of Odyssey and thinking really hard about, you know, what we thought the sector needed to scale. And then once we'd gotten it to a place where we'd workshopped enough with key financiers in the sector, key stakeholders in the sector, we spun it out into its own business and then took it from there. So Factor[E] is both a kind of co-founder and our seed investor. And then since then our partner has been the Shell Foundation who supports for profit or commercial companies in hard markets like the energy access market. And they've just been an incredible partner to us because they very much see the market in the same way that we do, understand those challenges, but also understand, kind of, the enormous opportunities there are to build technologies and products to help it scale. *Distributing Solar:* That's great. And we've spoken a bit about Nigeria already, but I'm curious to hear which projects have you most enjoyed working on, which countries are you the most excited about for the growth of either the mini grid or off grid energy solutions in the future? *Emily:* We obviously love working in Nigeria. We have a great partnership with the Nigeria Rural Electrification Agency. They are doing incredible, incredible things. And they're just sort of like a very smart, motivated group of people that have had a vision that we've gotten to help carry forward from the very early days to operations which is where we are now. That said, if you'd asked me a year ago, I probably would have been hard pressed to name other countries that I thought would follow suit. And I would say even in the past year, we've seen so many other countries start to plan really ambitious programs for solar mini grids and solar home systems. I mean, we're seeing activity in many West African countries, in Southern African countries like Zambia. The DRC is starting to see quite a lot of mini grid development and mini grid planning. And so it really does sort of feel like at the time that Nigeria led the way but a lot of other countries are starting to plan for large-scale programs that will meet the rural electrification needs through mini grids and distributed energy. *Eitan:* Yeah, I would say that that's ultimately the one of the most exciting things about the scale of the Nigeria program is it is really proving to all these other countries that this is a viable model. And I think that off-grid energy is now consistently part of these national electrification plans, which I think even when, you know, five years ago when I started the sector, that was a debate, right? Whether or not you could even think about mini grids as a viable national strategy. And now that's not the case, right? It's very clear that it is the most efficient way to bring electricity to a large percent of the population. That's now, I think, is taken as a given then. And now with the NEP in Nigeria being so successful, you can now say that there is the ability to do it at scale. And that hopefully we're moving to a place, and we're seeing that, where it's not just, you know, a dozen small programs where, you know, this donor is financing for mini grids here and some there, there isn't really a coherent plan. I think seeing it done at scale is what we're hoping to see or already starting to see, but I think we'll really see in the next, three to five years. *Distributing Solar:* Great. And how have you thought about your team? You're headquartered in Colorado in the U S, but obviously service countries all around the world, primarily in Sub-Saharan Africa, but also other areas as well. How have you thought about your team and how have you structured your team to support your customers in the best way possible? *Emily:* We've been really conscious about building a quite diverse team. I think it's, you know, it's certainly a challenge starting a company based in Colorado, that's focused on Sub-Saharan Africa and, over the years, as we built out Odyssey, we've really focused on that, how we can bring different skill sets and then also different experiences to our team. So to give you an example, our Vice President of engineering, so our teammate who built the whole architecture of our platform, is based here in Boulder with us but grew up in Tanzania and spent many years of his childhood without access to electricity. And so it's been a really exciting process for us to allow him to kind of go crazy and have great ideas about what product we want to build, but do so in a way that's anchored on the fundamental problem that we're trying to solve. Like, he understands it better than anybody why we're doing this work and why it is so important that our technology plays a role  in scaling mini grids. And since then we've actually been working on building our team in Africa because, well, so we've got data scientists that are based in Rwanda. We have one of our key business development managers based in Nigeria. And it's been a really fun process learning to work as a team across many different time zones, across different cultures and geographies and skill sets. And, you know, it's something that we're, always evolving on and improving on. *Distributing Solar:* Great. One question I always really like to ask is where did your company's name come from? And why Odyssey? *Emily:* So, Factor[E] Ventures, as I mentioned, is our seed investor and it was actually Morgan DeFoort idea. He's the head of Factor[E]. And it came from our relationship with Homer which is a microgrid optimization software. We plug into them where we kind of sit on top of them as a web based version of Homer. And so we thought it'd be a fun plan to have Odyssey and Homer. *Distributing Solar:* Great. And what advice would you give to someone who is looking to join the energy as a sector *Eitan:* Yeah, I think on advice on people looking to get into this sector, certainly anybody's trying to start a company and the sector I think is, the same advice is true for almost any business, which is knowing your end user. I think that, probably more so in our sector than many others, there's a lot of assumptions about the end user and people from far away places who are assuming that, you know, electricity might do this or might do that in a rural village. I think that having a humility about your assumptions is really important in our sector. *Emily:* You know, folks are often intimidated. I talked to a lot of younger folks that are interested in getting into the energy access sector, but it's intimidating because it's, you know, if you live in the US it's a far away market, or, you know, it's a market that's constantly changing and it's hard to map. And I think Eitan and I both wrote our graduate school essays on wanting to go work in a startup in the energy access space after graduate school. And that's obviously what we both did. And you know, if I have any advice, it's just go do it. I mean, I've learned so so much working in the sector. I don't think I could have learned as much in any other job that I could have done in my career. And, it just comes from, you know, on the ground experience and just trying something that's doing lots of new things. *Eitan:* Yeah. And I, I think also the market is so big. And, I think there is a sense of there are a couple of business models that have been tried and then had been copied a bunch of times, but  I still feel as though we're very early in the business model innovation in the energy access space *Distributing Solar:* Great. So, to close up the conversation, I always like to ask our guests, what are your predictions for the off grid solar sector for the next five years? *Eitan:* I think over the next five years, we're gonna see a lot more scale. We're gonna see a lot more capital deployed. I think it will still be led, even in five years time, I think it will still will be led by some of these multilateral and government programs, although with more and more commercial capital coming in. And I think there will be more business model innovation in the sense that, we're already starting to see, desegregation between, the developer of the mini grid doesn't have to be the same company that's doing the O&M and that might not be the same as doing customer management. And so I think, perhaps the disintegration of that whole business, where you could have companies who specialize in certain aspects of distributed energy could be interesting. And then I think also related to that, there's probably, a lot of, blending the lines between solar home systems, commercial/industrial projects and mini grids, which are frequently treated as like three different buckets. And I think that there probably will be more and more companies who are blurring those lines. *Distributing Solar:* And I guess to that last point, which is something I've heard from a number of companies as well and I find really interesting, do you think it will be that the companies working on these projects will start to provide different product offerings because they need to diversify their customer base or products that they're offering? Or do you think it comes more from the side of, you're building various types of infrastructure  and at some point you want some kind of interconnection and integration between those different units? *Eitan:* I think it's, actually more that getting a sense of what your core skill set is and that it may be that if it is in selling electricity and managing customers relationship then it may not make a big difference in the infrastructure behind it. Or on the flip side, if your, specialty really is raising capital and developing projects, then those skill sets might apply in any event, whether that's a C&I project or a mini grid. And so, I think it's a bit tied towards the disintegration I was mentioning before where, you know, if you're taking only a certain phase of the project development life cycle, then it may not matter what the underlying asset is as much. *Distributing Solar:* That makes sense. So you're catering more towards your specific strengths or new skill sets and the technology doesn't matter too much as a result. *Emily:* Yeah. I mean, I think to build on that, and I mentioned this earlier, I think we'll start to see more types of project finance vehicles that look like other sectors, and the type of infrastructure financing that has happened in either the other energy sectors or either, more broadly, just other infrastructure sectors. So we'll see the market maturing in the type of capital that project developers can access. And then I think we'll see many grids and lots more countries. As we mentioned earlier, we're just starting to see lots and lots of new countries in the planning process for how to scale mini grids and I'm really excited to see a lot of those programs come to fruition in the next five years. *Distributing Solar:* Great. Fantastic. Well, thank you, Emily. And thank you, Eitan, for joining us on Distributing Solar. It's been a pleasure to have you here and thanks for your time. *Emily and Eitan:* Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having us.

Laura Stevens:  Hello and welcome to the Government Digital Service podcast. My name is Laura Stevens and I’m a Creative Content Producer at GDS. And like last month’s episode, this one will also be recorded via Hangouts as we’re all remote working now.    So today we’re going to be talking about GOV.UK Notify. This is the government’s messaging tool which allows teams across the public sector to send out text messages, letters and emails to their users - cheaply and easily.   It sent its first notification in May 2016, and this month GOV.UK Notify reached a milestone and has sent out one billion messages.    Notify gets critical information to people that need it. It’s used by local councils, health organisations, central government departments, fire services and many other public sector bodies. And it’s used for a diverse range of services including flood alerts, blue badge notifications, doctor appointment reminders and informing prison wardens of their rotas, to name a few.    So to tell me more is Pete Herlihy, so please could you introduce yourself, what you do here at GDS and your role on Notify.    Pete Herlihy:  Yes, I can Laura. So yeah, I’m Pete, I work on the Notify Team, I help them out. I’m a Product Manager. I’ve been at GDS since the beginning, I haven’t, I haven’t made parole just yet.   I’ve worked a lot on a number of platforms in GDS, so publishing platform, GOV.UK, register to vote, petitions and more recently, when I say more recently, my, my latest gig is on Notify, which we’ve been doing now for just over 4 years. And we started with literally 2 people and we’re now 11, and yeah my role on that is just to help and support that team to deliver what is GOV.UK Notify.   Laura Stevens And why was Notify set up 4 years ago?   Pete Herlihy:  Well there’s a story there. So Notify was one of the solutions that came out of something called the ‘Enabling Strategy’, which was a piece of work GDS did. The, the reality behind that piece of work was we needed to figure out as an organisation what we could do to help the rest of government do what they do.   And so there was a bunch of stuff going on, we looked at various different kind of common problems across government that we wanted to solve, and, and that was kind of where the whole Government as a Platform programme emerged during that time. And one of the problems we wanted to solve was keeping people informed. And we, we learned very quickly that we probably didn’t need a status tracking application, but what we needed was a notifications platform. And the reckon was, which we did soon validate very quickly, was that if we could kind of just tell people what we knew as soon as we knew it, we didn’t have to wait for them to get anxious enough to jump on a website and look and you know, sign in and see where the thing was at. So it might have saved, or it would have solved our problems with regards to you know the cost of running contact centres and all that avoidable contact, but it wouldn’t really have helped our citizens or end users as much. And so we, we fairly early on validated that and pivoted from a status tracking application to a notifications application.    Laura Stevens:  And can you talk about some of the service teams that use it, like who uses it and what do they use it for?     Pete Herlihy:  Well we have now, what’s the number, around 2 and a half thousand service teams now using it, which is a lot. I think - when we started, someone, there was an external consultancy that did a little bit of work for us and they thought there might be 80 services that would use it. And, we were like OK cool, that’s a good number to aim at. But, it’s a completely different profile actually from what we’ve envisaged.    We thought at the start they’ll be a bunch of really big services using it and that will be like where the bulk comes from and then we kind of quickly learned that there was a really really long tail of smaller service teams that, and many we didn’t recognise as being a service, necessarily when we started who are really going to get the most benefit out of it. So the big teams might save money, and they’ll get a better product but they probably would have done something anyway. Whereas the rest of them just maybe wouldn’t enter the space of digital comms in this way - so they benefit massively from Notify.    So the types of teams, you list, you ran through a bunch at the start there. So, we do have nearly as many service teams in local government using it, as we do in central government. And an increasing number in the NHS as well. Obviously events of this year have seen massive surges in uptake from all of those sectors.    For example of things we’re doing a bunch of messaging for the COVID services, all the support and advice the NHS is providing to the extremely vulnerable, that’s all going through Notify. All your test results are going through Notify as well. We’ve got a huge amount of business continuity messaging, so accounts all telling the staff where and when they need to go to do work or changes-changes to opening hours or that sort of thing.  We do passport applications, progress updates, flood alerts, global travel alerts, I mean there are, every service is slightly different and that’s kind of the point. So yeah 2 and half thousand of them, 650 organisations I think across the public sector and there’s still a lot more out there who hopefully one day will be using Notify.   Laura Stevens:  And also was reading on GOV.UK, there was a press release put out which said that Notify is on track to save taxpayers an average of £35 million a year over the next 5 years. When you, it started, did you think you’d be making those sort of savings, yeah, to the taxpayer?    Pete Herlihy:  We were hopeful. We knew that the return on investment for something like Notify was massive because you know, a text message that cost you 1 and a half pence versus a phone call that costs you £5. That doesn’t take many many phone calls to be avoided to make a good case.    And, I remember doing a presentation at GDS Sprint 16, Sprint 16, the orange one. It was very orange. And one of the slides on that was 1 in 4 calls to government is someone just asking for an update. It costs a lot of money to run a contact centre and the government deals with literally tens of millions of phone calls a year. So if we can knock out a quarter of those by investing in a small team doing notifications, then there’s going to be some massive savings.    Laura Stevens:  And I thought as well as hearing from you about, from the sort of product point of view, we also wanted to hear from one of the users. So we interviewed Silvia Grant who’s the Lead User Researcher at the Environment Agency, who works on the flood warning service which uses Notify.    Silvia Grant:  So my name is Silvia Grant, I’m a Senior User Researcher for DEFRA [Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs]. And I work on an Environment Agency project called ‘The Flood Warning System’. We’re replacing that currently and the new project name is called ‘The Next Warning System’, so we’ve deliberately dropped the flood from that.   Laura Stevens: And what, can you explain a bit more about that service? What does it do?    Silvia Grant: Yes, so the Environment Agency has been sending out flood warnings since 1996. It’s a category 1 responder and has the responsibility for issuing these messages to the citizens and people who are at risk of flooding. So what the system does is we send out these texts, these emails, we have this information on GOV.UK, and it’s all about warning people that flooding in the area is likely or is happening.   Laura Stevens: And how does that system use GOV.UK Notify?    Silvia Grant: So at the moment we have over 500,000 user accounts registered to our service, and we use Notify to send letters and texts. And we send them letters to tell them when they’ve first registered that we update their account details, changes to the service, that sort of thing. And obviously also for our texts.     Laura Stevens: And how does that translate into the amount of notifications being sent to the people? And obviously this must change year on year depending on the flooding and depending on the weather and everything.   Silvia Grant: Yeah. Well so since we’ve moved across to Notify in December 2018, we’ve sent over 4 and a half million texts and close to 10,000 letters. So those are big numbers for us.    Laura Stevens:  How does having Notify help you get the information to the people that need to hear it?    Silvia Grant: Well first of all it’s it’s quicker - so it’s simpler and quicker and cheaper for us to use Notify. So we can send, in in terms of letters for instance, we can send them daily rather than weekly. We have much more freedom around content changes, we can test those changes. So it’s it’s saving us a lot of that admin time, and cost as well.    And because it’s a very stressful scenario for our users, it’s quite again, high emotion, high stress, high impact scenario that we send these letters and these texts in, it, it’s, it’s very important for us to get it right and to, you know for the process to be as slick as possible. And I think Notify really helps us do that.   Laura Stevens:  So this is a really important service because there are, there’s 2.6 million properties at risk of flooding. So what sort of information is being sent out through Notify?    Silvia Grant: Yeah, that’s right. So in England the estimate is between 1 in 5, 1 in 6 homes in England are at risk of flooding. And obviously that figure is growing because of climate change and a number of other factors.    So it’s, in some cases when we issue severe flood warnings, those are warnings where there is danger to life. So those can be very serious. But overall the flood warning service aims to save lives and livelihoods. So yes overall quite a high impact service.    Laura Stevens: And how much would this, do you have an estimate on how much it’s saving money-wise for the Environment Agency?    Silvia Grant: Yeah so just got the figure off the team and it’s saved, in the last 2 years that we’ve been using it, approximately saved the taxpayer at least £150,000. So that’s letters, texts, running costs, everything.   Laura Stevens: But as you’re saying you’re working on like a high impact service that has to get out messages quickly and which has a, yeah an impact, a big impact on people’s lives. Does having something like Notify in place sort of allow you to then have the space to do other things? Because you know that that’s there, that’s just gonna work, and you can then focus on other thi-parts of this quite emotional and high impact service.    Silvia Grant: Yeah definitely. So it’s, it’s quite a long, for our users it’s quite a stressful time receiving those alerts or those warnings, and when they pick those up we, we need to make sure that they arrive instantly, that they say the right things and using a central government platform makes sure that we have that extra accountability that we really need for sending these out.    And yes as well that that has given us a lot more space for actually focussing on things like the content of the message.   So it’s been overall a positive under all spheres. So it’s easy to use, it’s intuitive, it’s reliable, it’s transparent. So if ever there is an issue with it, we are notified instantly. And again the Notify Team has been really responsive with feedback, so whenever we have had requests or issues, there’s been a fantastic service on their part.   Laura Stevens: How do you plan to use Notify in the future, in your product?   Silvia Grant: So as our system gets replaced, the Flood Warning System into what we call the ‘Next Warning System’, we anticipate to use Notify even more. So we’re planning to send confirmation codes to users who sign up to the service on their mobiles. So that is, is a step forward in terms of security for us and it’s again, a cheaper journey and for the user, it’s it’s a 2-step journey rather than a 4- or 5-step. We’ve been testing that with the user and it’s, it’s a very positive response.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah, is that, is that how you imagined Notify would be being used?    Pete Herlihy:  I don’t think we clocked Notify being used to protect life necessarily when we started out.    But we did get, or start working with the Environment Agency fairly early on, so, so, which was great, because what that meant was we had this use case that we could point out internally to say that look this is really crucial. This, this isn’t just about getting a passport update quicker or these kinds of things. This, this is literally a life-saving message and that, that allowed us to focus the right kind of energies on our resilience and make sure we got what we needed. Because we can’t not be there right like if we’re sending these-this kind of message. We have been working with them for a while, they’re a great team, they blog a lot about what they’re doing which is fantastic and very cool.   Laura Stevens:  Was there anything else in the clip that particularly stood out to you?   Pete Herlihy:  Yeah I think there’s 2 things. So one is letters. Because I think people think of text messages and emails and forget letters is a thing for Notify. Don’t forget but it’s less well understood. And when we started, back in 2016, when we started out, we were letters is probably a thing just because we need to offer a full palette of comms option and for some people they need a letter, or they prefer a letter, or digitally excluded, whatever it might be, they have legitimate reasons, some of them are legally required for example.    And we only, and we kind of stumbled over letters, well not stumbled over, we confirmed our letters when we were doing our, these tours of the application processing. Tours sounds really grand doesn’t it? But we’d sit with a team and one of the things they would do is they would finish preparing an application receipt or confirmation of decision or whatever it was going to be. And then they’d press print and they’d select the printer and they’d walk over, join a queue and someone would yell out ‘stop printing I need to put in the letterhead paper’ you know and they’d, and we were like oh this must be very expensive, and then goes from a printer, they’re folding it up into an envelope, the envelope goes into a tray, someone comes round in the afternoon with a trolley and picks them all up and we thought ‘woah there’s got to be a better way of doing letters’.   And that was real early confirmation that if we could make it easy for teams to do letters we could save, help them save, huge amounts of money and time. The amount of time people were just standing around waiting for the printers and things like this, so if that could just be a click it’s like great. And they could do lots more good things with their time.    So that was one thing that was really interesting.    The second is around the real time content changes. So one of the problems I guess we were trying to solve was often these things are like hard-coded and you need a developer and you need to pay a change request fee to your external supplier to update a typo even in a letter or change a URL in an email or something like that.    And we really wanted, not only make it easier to do that in real time but also to allow the interface to be used by like a content designer or a comms person, so they could be involved in shaping the messages themselves in real time. Not just preparing it in a word doc that goes round for sign off by committee, and then is handed over to a development team to implement.    So we, we really tried to bring those roles into the team. And you know we were hearing horror stories of people paying tens of thousands just to change a few letters, or including extra things because they couldn’t change a letter saying so please ignore this section, these kind of horror stories you hear about. So that was one of the important bits for us to get real time content changes in an accessible way into Notify and I’m glad to hear they’re using it well as well.    Laura Stevens:  We also have a clip from the Canadian Digital Service which is Canada’s version of GDS. Notify is obviously used across the UK in the public sector but how has Notify also been used around the world?   Pete Herlihy:  So we’ve worked with a number of teams actually around the world - some we’ve shared patterns with, others we’ve shared our open source code with. And we, as of today I think there are 2 Notify’s being used in anger, one in Australia through the DTA, the Digital Transformation Agency, it’s basically the, the Aussie version of GDS. They were the first, they forked the Notify code maybe about a year and a half, 2 years ago now. And they’re now running that for the Australian government. They’ve you know, taken the code, they then iterate on top of it to add things that are unique and special to them.     The Canadian Digital Service are also running a version of Notify. And that’s growing quickly, it’s grown quicker than we did when we started, so yay for them. But those are the 2 that are being used at government level.   Have to say there’s a lot of people who just pick stuff up from blogs or from Twitter or whatever, rather than any kind of formal introductions to the product. Yeah so it’s a great product, very proud that others have picked up the codebase and are running with it, we continue to work with those teams. Speak to teams like Code for America who are doing great stuff in the States. We’ve had a few all team web catch ups with the Canadian Team, and the Americans to show and tell really about what they’re doing, enhancements they’ve made, things they’d like to contribute back. So we’ve got a good little community going on, which is fantastic.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah, a very nice international community. And we’re going to hear from Bryan Willey, who’s a Product Manager of Notify at the Canadian Digital Service.   Bryan Willey: So my name is Bryan Willey, I’m a Product Manager here at CDS, the Canadian Digital Service. And I am the Product Manager for Notify, a piece of software, an open source software, we took from GOV.UK.    Sorry is that my cat or your cat?    Laura Stevens: I don’t have a cat, so it’s not my cat.   Bryan Willey:  She’s miaowing outside the door. Sorry about that.    Laura Stevens: And yeah would it be fair to say for UK listeners, the Canadian Digital Service is Canada’s version or the equivalent of GDS over there?   Bryan Willey: Yes absolutely. I mean it basically has similar initials. Yeah, so the Canadian Digital Service was made with both GDS and the American 18F Group in mind.    Laura Stevens: And could you describe what the product you manage is, Notify?   Bryan Willey: So Notify is a email platform. Well we’re using predominantly as an email platform, it also does SMS. I know that yours does letters but we’re not there yet. We’re predominantly using it for email and it helps the Canadian government sort of send email messages from a centralised location to the public. Something that the Canadian government’s only been able to do with Outlook servers and traditional email servers before.   Notify allows us to have this cloud-at-cost system that can deploy emails very quickly to anyone who wants to use the service, whether that’s an API integration to connect up to automatically reply when somebody submits an application, or if it’s a newsletter that goes out that people sign up for. And it’s been very helpful in sort of building any of those systems because in the past, we’ve had to go procure an individual cloud email vendor for each solution we built.   Notify allows us to centralise all that, procure, secure and say yeah, this one thing is now what we use for email. And so we don’t have to go through the process of procuring it every time, and that’s been exceedingly helpful.   Laura Stevens: And how’s it going? Because I see, I looked on your dashboard and now 22 services are using Notify and more than 740,000 notifications have been sent.   Bryan Willey: Yeah. Well we think it’s going pretty well. The growth has been faster than we had expected. The current crisis has something to do with that. It’s definitely upped our volume more than it would have been.   Out of the 22 live services, it’s a mix of how much they’re getting used; some are small, more prototype-y services that do things like password reset emails. Whereas some of our more recent ones include a subscription newsletter for Health Canada to combat COVID-19 misinformation.    Laura Stevens: So I saw your blog post on the CDS blog from November 2019, and in it you said ‘this, meaning your Notify tool, isn’t something we built entirely from scratch. Using open source code from the hugely successful GOV.UK Notify service, created by the GDS in the UK, our team is adapting it to fit within our context, in English and French - both of Canada’s official languages’.    So I wanted to talk about like, what were the user needs for Canada and how was that similar to the user need over here, and yeah how were you able to adapt, what had been done over here?   Bryan Willey: Yeah. So much in the same way I imagine GDS discovered this problem, we had a lot of government services that were communicating with people by mail and phone and the people would rather just get an email, you know. Then they don’t have to sit around and wait for a phone call. And when we were building services early in CDS, we discovered this and we’d be setting up email for each of these services. So after doing this 2, 3 times, CDS said ‘we should really just make this so we can have it every time’.    Because we’re not, also not the only ones looking for this. The government of Canada is moving towards more cloud-first strategy and as such they’ve identified the needs for email notifications in a bunch of services. So we forked not just GOV.UK Notify, the DTA [Digital Transformation Agency] in Australia also had a copy of Notify that they had modified a bit from yours. And we looked at both of those and evaluated them, and we forked GDS Notify because we wanted to be able to get your upstream security changes and stuff and pull them down into our repo [repository]. And the Australian one was merged into a big mono-repo which gave us less flexibility with the code.   So forking the GDS one was a great idea to sort of prototype it and see what we had to work with because this was already a solution to the problem we’d found. And we then had to, we liked it so we modified it to Canada. Some of the first things we did was of course update SMS to Canadian phone numbers, add timezone support in, so that the logs and stuff functions across more than one timezone. We had to pull apart the whole UI [user interface] and translate it into French because Canada has 2 official languages. And so it’s been a bit of an overhaul for that, and that’s been a lot of our major work.   And we also had to sort of modify the branding system bit. Because again, 2 official languages means 2 official government brands, one in English and one in en français. So we’ve had to sort of modify the templating system. We’re working on that a bit more now to expand it for both official language use cases.   And so it’s, it’s just been a lot of tweaks here and there to the system and and re-you know changing the UI to look more like Canada.ca than GOV.UK.   Laura Stevens: And by having this already in place, what has it allowed you to do? Has it allowed you to move quicker, has it saved you hassle? How has it affected your work and your plan with the product?   Bryan Willey: It definitely saved us hassle because we’d have to set that all up from scratch on our own. The email problem, the notification problem, wasn’t going to go away. And these Canadian departments were going to solve it and were solving it by their own means - they were building up their own Outlooks servers and using email stuff. You know that wasn’t taking advantage of cloud-at-cost like Notify did.    So having the software that you’d spent 3 years building and already putting a lot of the settings and permissions and access and security and tech in place, really saved us the time having to go through that on our own.   Laura Stevens: And also I wanted to ask, so when I’ll be playing this, this edited clip back, I’ll be with Pete. And I wondered if you had anything you wanted to say to him, any questions or any requests as the Lead Product Manager for Notify?   Bryan Willey: Thanks for all your help, I guess. You know. I..it’s working great for us so I don’t know if there’s anything we need or any help specifically from Pete. The software is pretty complete in its solution for email and SMS, and so thanks for all your hard work Pete.    Laura Stevens: So was there anything in there that you were surprised by or that you hadn’t realised?   Pete Herlihy:  So I’d knew, I’d seen actually most of that we’ve shared with the team so. The one that I didn’t clock was the branding, and the dual language branding - I hadn’t even thought about that one. So we, we may, we may steal that back. Obviously there’s more than one official language in the UK as well so.    That’s really great to hear that.   There was an interesting point though around the use of Notify, either by an API or not, so again that was one of our really early reckons when we started Notify, was that not everyone’s got a development team or development capacity or is high enough a priority in their organisation to get the focus. And so we couldn’t just make something that only worked, worked for API and so everything you can do in Notify, you can do via the web interface as well.    And the other bit I guess that is maybe even overlooked a bit, is that you get like 3 years worth of software development or whatever, but you also get 3 years worth of research. And we’ve, we’ve done a lot. You know we’ve always had a dedicated user researcher in the team, we’ve always done a huge amount of user research, which you have to d-, for something you’re aspiring to make completely self-service, you have to do the user research, otherwise it’s just never going to be.    And so we’ve done loads with like developers, with finance people, with product teams - all the different types of people we see wanting to use Notify. I think what you get when you fork code or, or you know even just take the patterns that another team has, has, derived is you just save yourself years of user research. And again, at that point you can then focus on what are the, the like the niche research requirements around working en francais as he says or whatever else it might be. So that, along with kind of the blogging that goes along the way that shows some of the thinking that goes into the product and some of the decisions that are taken, I mean all of it just shows how, how sensible it is to be doing this stuff in the open.    Laura Stevens:  Yeah, for sure. And I think that, talking about doing stuff in the open and blogging, leads me on quite nicely to my next part, because I wanted to talk about Notify’s most recent work on coronavirus, which you referenced at the top of the podcast. And 2 of our colleagues, Miriam Raynes and Mark Buckley wrote a blog post about how Government as a Platform, or GaaP services, as a whole are helping with the COVID-19 response.    But to talk specifically about Notify, they, in the blog post it’s talking about this huge increase in numbers, like 2 million SMS messages were sent using Notify on a single day in March compared to the daily average of 150,000. I’ve also got a figure here of daily messages up as much as 600%, as high as 8.6 million a day.    So what services are using Notify to help with the government’s coronavirus response?   Pete Herlihy:  Yeah, there, so the, the increase in communication is obviously massive and needs to be. And one of the biggest users of Notify is the GOV.UK email service, and they, they do all of the email for people who subscribe to any content that the government publishes - so travel alerts for example, if you want to know can I take a flight to Namibia, here’s the guidance, or if there’s hurricanes coming through the Caribbean and these countries are affected, then I need to like push out information to say don’t go to these places, or whatever it might be. And those alerts are, you know, again potentially protecting people, life and property - they’re like really important. And there’s been a huge amount of travel advice and alerts being given, as, as you can imagine. So that’s been one of the biggest users.    We’ve also seen, I mentioned earlier, like a huge amount of business continuity stuff. And we put a blog post out recently as well, just reminding I guess more than anything, that all of the public sector could use Notify to provide emergency staff updates for changes to working patterns et cetera. as a result of COVID-19. So there’s definitely been a big uptick there.   And then I think, from, from the health perspective there’s, I’ll just say NHS because there’s like various bits of the NHS that are working like ridiculously hard and fast to spin out new services really quickly, and these services are like just incredibly crucial right now.   So the extremely vulnerable service, this is one where the government said if you are you know, in this extreme risk category you should stay at home for 12 weeks, and they’ve been texting this group of people.   There’s all the stuff around testing and results for testing, ordering home test kits, all these sorts of things. So there’s the very specific COVID response type stuff and that is, there is a significant volume of that that’s still ongoing.    There is business as usual to some degree actually still going on. So people are you know, people are still having to renew passports or whatever it might be. Whilst the volumes are down, they’re still happening. So we don’t stop all the other messaging and just focus on this, we’ve, we’ve got all that to do as well, and this is, this is all additional, it’s all on top.    It all came very quickly as well. You know this wasn’t a gradual ramp up over weeks and weeks to 5,6,700%, it was, it was almost overnight. And yeah, it’s been a huge task to, to keep the platform stable. We had one outage as a result of this on St Patrick’s Day. Which obviously we were massively disappointed at, like our resilience is like one of our, you know, one of the things we pride ourselves most on but we just couldn’t prepare for that kind of instantaneous ramp up. So we, we fixed that very quickly and you know Notify itself has been very stable since.   But we’re still continuing on the basis of what we’re seeing now, we’re going to call that the new normal and then we need to add again capacity, 2 or 3 times that again. So there’s still a lot of work to be done, the team still working incredibly hard as they have been ever since, well always, but particularly since, since lock-in began.    Laura Stevens:  And I believe I’m right in saying as well the 1 billionth message was also a coronavirus one - that was for a notification sent by the coronavirus home testing service.   Pete Herlihy:  Yes, it was, that was quite opportune. It’s a good example of the type, the primary type of messaging that’s going on with Notify at the moment.    And you know those levels are still high, I think we had like 7 and a half million again on Friday, so we’re not getting any quieter. We’re, and we have to plan that we’re not going to. And if we do get quieter then ok, that’s fine but we, we can’t sort of take our foot off at the moment.   Laura Stevens:  As you mentioned one of the organisations using Notify a lot at the moment is the NHS and the various teams within the NHS. And we’ve got a clip from Darren Curry, who’s the Chief Digital Officer at the NHS Business Services Authority, about how and why his team are using Notify.    Darren Curry: Hello I’m Darren Curry, the Chief Digital Officer for the NHS Business Services Authority [NHSBSA], which is an organisation which processes a lot of nationwide transactions on behalf of the NHS, so both public-facing and towards other clinical-facing services.    Laura Stevens: And you’re quite a long standing member of NHSBSA, aren’t you?   Darren Curry: Yes, I am. So I’ve been at NHS Business Services Authority for roughly 17 years, 17, 18 years now. Believe it or not, I joined originally as a Data Entry Officer back in the day, whilst I was doing my university degree, for pocket money effectively, or beer money. And it paid for me through, through university and I have enjoyed it so much and progressed in the organisation to now be Chief Digital Officer so it’s, it’s been a good place to work.    Laura Stevens: And I know that the NHS Business Services Authority has been doing lots of things in response to coronavirus but what I’d like to talk to you about today is what you’ve used GOV.UK Notify for.     Darren Curry: Yeah. So we use GOV.UK Notify on a number of our live services as we stand now. So we, we issue exemption certificates, so prepayment certificates for prescription forms, maternity exemptions, which we now issue digitally - so, so we already use Notify for those services in our, our normal processing.    We, we first started around coronavirus with Notify on a, what was a relatively small service, for informing individuals who were returning into the UK or who were being advised to isolate, so to provide advice during the 7 days isolation period.    And since then our support has grown in the services. So we then utilised the Notify service to support provisioning information to patients who were identified as high risk should they contract coronavirus. So there, there’s individuals who have been asked to shield during the outbreak in order to reduce the chances of them contracting the virus. So we, we text messaged all of those individuals over a 7-so we issued them with 7 texts messages, so one per day, providing advice and guidance on, on what to do during their shielding period.    That, that service has grown as, as more people who’ve been identified as being vulnerable, so working with GP practices and NHS England and NHS Digital to identify more individuals who, who may be vulnerable should they contract coronavirus. That, that has grown and we’ve issued more text messages and information to those individuals.    We’ve used Notify to provide test results for coronavirus, working with NHS Digital and other partners. We’ve used Notify to also provide advice and information for individuals who go through the 111 service in providing text messages and also emails for those services.   Adding it all together, over the last 4 weeks, we’ve issued around about 17 million text messages via Notify through the services that we are, we are delivering, so.    It’s, it’s scaling and it’s growing very quickly.    Laura Stevens: And so this is, the, the information you’re getting out there is obviously like, it’s really important it’s right, it’s really important that it gets to the right people, it’s an emotional service like, people are scared, like your users are concerned. So-why did you pick Notify to use this on, on these particular services?    Darren Curry: Yeah. So, So I mean Notify brings a lot of benefits. I, I think should also say that we, we, in terms of building those messages as well, we worked with colleagues in behavioural insights teams within government, Public Health England, NHSX, content designers, on all of those, and getting the content right was, was critical for these services.    But you’re absolutely right, the infrastructure to send those services, those, those messages needed to be kind of stable and dependable. And, Notify does that, so it’s, it is national infrastructure that we can, can leverage all of the benefits of that having already been built as a government platform that we can consume, to, to use as a service really quickly, securely and safely and knowing that, that those messages will, will be passed. There’s lots of benefits that the Notify service has, has brought us.     So if, frankly if we were having to do this without the Notify service, we wouldn’t have been able to do it. So that we, we would have been dependent upon trad-more traditional legacy contact methods, such as post, to individuals to inform them on, on this scale. We would had to build a, a technology solution to meet this need - we clearly didn’t have to do that, we could leverage something that was already built for this purpose.    And, and this is the benefit of government as a platform that we can consume, you know, the first service we set up with Peter was done within an hour. We, we were able to from, from the request to us being then able to actually push text messages, it took less than an hour to, to go from A to B on that. And you know, without Notify we would have been looking at days, and, and in this situation of a, of a national pandemic, then time’s obviously absolutely critical you know, for people to be able to act upon the advice which has been provided - it’s, it’s, it’s genuinely critical.    Yeah, so, so Notify brings all of those benefits - secure, platform, scalable, to be able to deliver those messages. Yeah.    Laura Stevens: Can you tell me about some of the responses to these SMSs?   Darren Curry: Yeah. For the shielded patients list and the text messages we sent the first cohort when we sent those, we enabled individuals to reply. And some, and we did some analysis on the replies to, to those messages and some of, some of the messages indicated, well some of the replies that we received indicated the difference that the service was really having.    So you know the, the replies from people thanking, just saying thank you for informing us and like, they, they would follow the guidance and the maybe hadn't realised that they were in that high risk category beforehand. In this instance you know, we sent it out and we were able to see some of the replies and know that as a result of that action that was taken by sending that message out to an individual, there was an action that that individual was then going to take. And that action potentially, more than potentially, more than likely will result in a reduced risk of that individual being taken ill, and consequences of that.    So yeah, it, it really does bring home that and highlight the importance of some of these services and how they all join together.    Laura Stevens: So, NHS Business Services Authority is obviously doing a lot of work, you’re working also with other organisations across government as well, aren’t you?   Darren Curry: Yeah, so we, we are working alongside our partner organisations including so NHS England, NHS Improvement, NHSX, Department of Health and Social Care directly, Public Health England, the Behavioural Insights Team, GDS also and NHS Digital, have all, we’ve all collaborated and come together across on multiple different services that we are doing. So it’s been a real collaborative effort across the whole of the government family to get these services up and running.   Laura Stevens: And had you, did you find you had to, ‘cause obviously it’s for use in like health services but it’s also used like in central government departments, it’s used by local authorities, it’s used in prison services, used by fire services. Like did you find you had to adapt it at all to the health context or was it all sort of ready to go for you?    Darren Curry: The great, one of the many great things about Notify is it works just out of the box. So from my development teams in the [NHS] Business Service Authority, it’s a, it’s a really easy integration point. So whether we’re integrating using an API to push the, the messaging or whether we're doing batch uploads of CSVs [comma-separated values files] or spreadsheets or whatever, it works for, for all of those things.    I think the, the other thing as well to mention is, is that you know Notify, it’s a trusted service. So we were able to work with the National Cyber Security Centre [NCSC] as well to, to ensure working with the Notify Team and NCSC, to ensure that the messages we were sending were protected numbers. So it was you know again, just adding that, that security to the whole service when you’re doing critical services for people, that we can make sure that they’re trusted and they are known and protected.    Laura Stevens: If I’m playing this clip back to Pete, is there anything you want to ask him or anything you want the team to develop next?    Darren Curry: I, you know what, it’s a, it’s a really tough question because the, the Notify Team, it’s, it’s a fantastic service. And I think rather than asking Pete to develop anything else, I think my encouragement to Pete and the team is to take that time to reflect on the things that this service has enabled in a time of a national crisis and the things that him and the team have been able to enable, are awesome. And it’s easy to forget that. And 17 million messages to people who needed support, that would not have been achieved, will have genuinely saved lives and protected people.   Pete Herlihy:  Wow. That’s awesome. Seeing the value that has to them and understanding that you know, without Notify being in place, that stuff just could not happen or you know wouldn’t have been remotely as effective as, you know I maybe hadn’t quite appreciated the, the extent of that.   So yeah, that’s pretty mind blowing.    Laura Stevens: Yeah. Yeah I think what Darren says well is articulate how this technology tool but how it translates to in people’s lives.   Pete Herhily:  Yeah, makes it, it makes it very real, for sure. I, I think, I think, you know we’ve talked a bit in the past about how we can’t afford not to have these platforms in place, and, and that was before a global pandemic right? But, and it’s not you know, Notify’s not the only platform in town - we’ve got publishing, you know identity, payments - so but we need them, we can’t afford to not have them. Yeah, now more than ever I guess.   I just want my team to hear that.    Laura Stevens:  So thank you so much for Pete for coming on today.    Pete Herlihy:  Welcome.    Laura Stevens:  And you can listen to all the episodes of the Government Digital Service podcast on Apple Music, Spotify and all other major podcast platforms, and the transcript’s available on PodBean.

Big data sounds great, but how can marketers extract insights and put together reports without spending all of their time crunching numbers? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Anna Shutko of Supermetrics talks about how marketers today are dealing with data. From juggling data from 5+ sources, to wrangling spreadsheets and figuring out how to continuously monitor your data pipeline, Anna shares how Supermetrics clients are taking on these challenges while saving themselves considerable time - and how you can, too. Highlights from my conversation with Anna include: Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool that transfers data from a variety of sources to the marketer's destination of choice. In addition, Supermetrics offers data warehousing through Supermetrics for BigQuery. Supermetrics' goal is to make marketers' lives better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters. Anna says that marketers today need to be technologists who know their business, know their platforms, know at which stage of the funnel they want to use the platforms, and know how to use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from their data. According to Anna, the best KPI for any marketer is revenue. If revenue is growing, then marketing is doing its job. One of Supermetrics' customers was able to cut the time they spend on reporting down from three to four days a week to a few hours. With a platform like Supermetrics, which allows you to continuously keep your data updated in real time, you can simply check the data once a day, knowing that its up to date, and then go about your business. You can also simply provide your stakeholders (ex. board) with a link to view your data at their convenience. Anna says that the biggest mistake marketers make is to focus on vanity metrics like impressions. Resources from this episode: Marketing Technology Landscape Supergraphic  Supermetrics Reporting Template Gallery  Supermetrics Customer Success Stories Sleeping Giant Media Success Story Supermetrics HubSpot connector Supermetrics for BigQuery  Inbound Success Podcast episode 111 with Jake Neill  This Won't Scale playbook by Drift SaaStr Podcast for all things SaaS The Growth Hub Podcast for marketing topics Julian Shapiro's guides Listen to the podcast to learn more about how marketers are cutting their time spent on reporting using Supermetrics. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And Today my guest is Anna Shutko, who is a product marketing manager with Supermetrics. Welcome, Anna. Anna: Hey, Kathleen, and thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure to be here. Kathleen: Yeah. And I think you might actually qualify as my guest, one of the guests who is coming from the furthest away because you are in Finland right now. Correct? Anna: Correct. Yes, we are based in Helsinki, Finland. And yeah, so originally from Russia, and I moved to Finland and I've been living here for about seven years now. Kathleen: All right, and how -- just because the weather is changing here, so I'm currently kind of obsessed with weather -- how cold is it where you are? Anna: Basically, it's plus seven degrees Celsius. I'm sorry, I don't know what it's like in Fahrenheit. Kathleen: Cold, cold. I know that's cold. Anna: Kind of cold yeah. It usually drops to minus 20. So it's- Kathleen: Oh my gosh. I don't know how you do it, I would not survive in that climate. Well, it is getting colder here and the seasons are changing. But I'm so excited to have you on and to pick your brain because we're going to talk a little bit about analytics, which is something that's very near and dear to my heart. But it's one of those topics I think people talk a lot about, but they don't get very specific on and so I am actually really excited to get specific with you. Anna: Yes please. About Anna and Supermetrics Kathleen: So before we dive into this, though, can you just talk a little bit about, first of all, yourself and what you do and also what Supermetrics does? Anna: Yeah, sure. So I'm Anna Shutko and I've been working in Supermetrics for three years now. So I am one of the first employees of the company, I joined as employee number seven in 2016. And since then we've had a really, really rapid growth. So it's indeed an exciting journey. And I'm still continuing as you can imagine, the company is not the same as it was, not the same at all. Now we're hitting 70 like headcount. So it's been quite a wild ride. And I started as a marketing generalist, because as you can imagine, we're a team of seven, and everybody was doing everything, I was the second employee on the marketing team. And as the company grew I realized that product that's Supermetrics does is my passion and I want to devote more and more time to it. Now as we are hiring more people, I'm actually able to concentrate in product more and more as we go so I'm very excited about it. And in the future, I will be leading integrations marketing, which means, and I will explain everything how Supermetrics works and what integrations are in a minute, like integrations as their own stream as their own branch of marketing, so to say, so yeah, pretty excited about it. And like I mentioned, I fell in love with the product from day one. I remember how I was applying to Supermetrics, and I opened the website, and I saw this amazing product in the website was look really, really bad, but the idea was there. And yeah, since then, we changed the website and we added many more new and far more amazing products but I'm continuously in love with the company and products that we do so this is where my passion as a product marketing comes from. Kathleen: I have to just say, as a marketer, I have to laugh when I hear you say that you came in and you had a bad website because this -- I have experienced that in my career. And I never know whether to be excited or sad, because sad that you're coming in and the website stinks but excited that you get to come in and like change it and immediately show such big results of your marketing efforts. Like a website redesign is an awesome opportunity to just make a huge impact on a company's marketing so there's great opportunity there as a marketer, but it's also like "aargh." Anna: Yeah, I totally feel you on that we had a huge redesign project, but actually now the website really matches the company's identity of the company's products and shows how amazing they are. So I would prefer to see it as an opportunity. Kathleen: Yeah, you guys have a great website. So if you're listening and you have not checked out the Supermetrics site, definitely take a look at it. It's really well done and very cohesive from a visual branding standpoint. I've always liked your site. Anna: Thank you so much. Yeah, so a couple of words on what is Supermetrics and what do we actually do in this little red box. So, Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool and we started by developing a tool, which transfers data from different data sources, or as we call them "Integrations", those things, which transfer data from different APIs to different data destinations. So we transfer data from platforms like Google Ads, Google Analytics, Facebook ads, Twitter Ads, and now new ones for example Quora Ads, name it to spreadsheet tools and we started from transferring all this data to Excel then we move into G Suite. So next product was Supermetrics for Google Sheets aka transferring data from now it's 50 plus sources to Google Sheets. Then as Data Studio got rolled out, we partnered up with Google and we're actually the first ones to develop Connectors, which work entirely in Google Data Studios UI. So transferring all these different data to Google Data Studio. And now we enter the data warehousing space with our newest product Supermetrics for BigQuery and this is a completely new product game changer. So marketers can take advantage of BigQuery and store a lot of historical data there without necessarily learning how to code, really like hardcore, so everything is pretty intuitive. You can set transfers, and then visualize the data in big powerhouses that we're calling Tableau, Power BI for example. So that's the evolution of Supermetrics. In short, I love to describe it as a data pipeline, just easy to imagine, right, pipeline, we transfer data as if it's like water, for example, to all those different data destinations, and keep the work flowing. So previously, without Supermetrics marketers had to copy, paste, or download CSVs. So imagine, if you need a report for your client tomorrow, you have to go to every single platform like Facebook ads, Google Ads like I mentioned, ecetera, copy, paste, or then download all those different CSVs and compile them into one file. Edit every single data type and make sense out of the data and it was nightmare. I cannot even imagine how people did it without Supermetrics before. So we basically automate the whole thing so there is a really smooth sidebar or engage Google Data Studio there is this selection tool where you can very easily connect to all the sources you need. And you can select, which data do I want. For example, I want clicks from yesterday's clicked by campaigning for example, I want Facebook ads campaigns. And boom, this data just appears in your spreadsheet. It's really easy. I think it's the easiest if you watch the video, and I will add all the links to the video. So then people can pause the podcast, follow along or check our site out if they want to. So yeah, you will just really see how easy it is to create a marketing report and our motto, so our idea is to make marketers' life better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters like talking to the client, analyzing this data, spotting trends, sharing this report with their colleagues. If it's a collaborative tool, like Data Studio, it's super easy to do. And because we're a data pipeline, it gives us this flexibility. So we don't really have a fixed data destination where we transfer everything. People already know how to use Excel, so they can just transfer their data there and just go ahead and continue their work. So that's who we are. How marketers are taking on big data Kathleen: I love that. This whole topic is so interesting to me, and I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, because my company is also in the data space, but we just happened to be in cyber security but there's a similar problem with marketing and with cyber security, namely that, there's all this sort of excitement around the availability of big data. And data is wonderful but what winds up happening I think, a lot of the time is there's a lot of noise and not a lot of signal. And meaning there's a ton of data, but you don't necessarily need to look at all data, right? You need to get to the data that matters the most. And the most important thing isn't the data itself it's the insights you source from it. And so, I would love to just kind of get your thoughts on especially for marketers. Do you see marketers successfully dealing with that challenge right now and how do they do that? It is such a big, hairy kind of area of I could be measuring all the things and tracking all the things. I guess this is like 10 questions in one I want to ask you so many things, like what are the most important metrics? How are marketers winnowing it down to what matters the most? Like, you guys work with a lot of companies, how many exactly is it? Anna: So yeah, indeed we do and I think I already previously mentioned to you, so it's 400k, 400,000 people who've tried or are using Supermetrics across all the different products, so huge numbers. Kathleen: That's interesting, it must give you some pretty fascinating insight into what information marketers are tracking and what they're looking at and what sources they're drawing data from. So let's start out actually by a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of them tend to be practicing marketers and they're senior enough that they deal with strategy, but they're also kind of deep in the weeds with some tactical execution. And if somebody is listening and thinking I need to set up a reporting framework and I need to decide what are the most important KPIs to track? Can you share a little bit of, through what you see in the platform, like, what are those top KPIs that you tend to see marketers looking at? Anna: Yeah, so of course every single marketing reporting framework is unique and it depends on the company, there is no right or wrong, there is no one framework or one approach I could share and then everybody would apply it and then I would be in a very happy place. I wish that would be possible. But it's an art, it's science and everybody has to use their own judgment. Of course, I can pinpoint some things for example, nowadays you're completely right -- marketing is becoming more and more and more data driven. And marketing is actually becoming more and more technical. So there was this one chart I love referring to which is called the MarTech 5000. Not sure if you've heard of it. And it just shows on a larger scale, how the MarTech space has transformed over the years. So in 2011, there were something about, if I remember correctly, 150 solutions. And right now there are over 7,000 solutions. So imagine all those platforms and every single marketer is using maybe in their own platform, or some unique custom setups in the same HubSpot or Salesforce in the same platform everybody's using. So like I mentioned, is becoming more data driven, it's becoming more unique and is becoming increasingly complex. And what I see is that the profession is changing so we're not just more curious anymore, we have to be marketing technologists to successfully implement all those strategies. So knowing the platform and knowing at which stages of your funnel, you should use a particular platform, maybe it's a new platform, like Quora Ads for example. And it's an entirely new set of metrics because the nature of platform is different. You also have to take that into consideration. So basically to sum it up, knowing your business, knowing the platform, knowing at which stage of the funnel you want to use this platform, and knowing -- and this is where Supermetrics comes into play very nicely -- how we can use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from your data. Say you want to use, for example, Search Ads as top of the funnel, this is what we see commonly happening, people using Search Ads, maybe display ads to attract attention so they will be metrics like impressions, to impact your further questions like impressions clicks, in a way micro conversions or conversions as in their positioning to the website or going into down the funnel. Then in the bottom of the funnel, people are already more familiar with the company. So there can be many different other platforms coming into play that continue handling data so they can go on the website track. So then there is Google Analytics. They continue with another platform. Quora Ads again is a very good example because there you can have different targeting levels and you can target different questions now that people have already got their food for thought about your company. And in the end, you can, again, hammer them with more maybe brand-related content now that they're already familiar with your brand and then lead them gradually to closure. And again, this is where understanding of the product comes in handy. I will give our own Supermetrics example. So we have Supermetrics templates, basically, those are free to use files, which people can use and they work with our Connectors. So it works like this, you get this file, you click three buttons, and it all happens in Data Studio UI or, for example, Google Sheets UI and this is gets populated with your data as you use Supermetrics Connectors. But the trick is that you have to use Supermetrics Connectors to automate this dashboard. Of course, you can put your own numbers and the formulas would work, there is no problem with that you can also use it manually. But the beauty of those templates is to use them in an automated manner. So by knowing that those templates, activate trials, again, if we talking about SaaS, you know that in the bottom of your funnel, you can put this specific lead magnet, like in our case, this is the Landscape, there can be some our tool and then usually tracking through Custom Code or through Google Analytics, how those things convert and then afterwards I think that at this point, people start using more and more complicated platforms to track this post-purchase journey to accurately predict what kind of people convert? How do those people behave? And are there any like rookie purchases? So this is, again, where HubSpot comes in very handy. The platform has expanded a lot. Or Salesforce, then you can connect this data from Salesforce to top of the funnel, or middle of the funnel content data and then see how people who click on your ads and search literally through the whole journey have converted and what kind of people are there and based on that data, then you craft an improved marketing journey. Now that was a really long explanation but yeah, just hope to get the general idea out there so that you should know the business you're in. You should know the tool, you should know how to use those tools together, how to use this data together. And yeah, just focus on metrics like ROI that's my personal belief because marketing cannot function separately or completely separately from overall business, it has to bring results, it has to bring insights. So I think revenue is a very solid indicator of whether something working or not working, and in our case, this will be ROIs. Marketing tool sprawl Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense and you touched upon something I wanted to ask further about, which is you have to know your platforms and I think you said you need to be a technologist these days, which I think is really so accurate. There are so many different platforms and you can't just be a strategist anymore you have to know how to get in and make these software tools sing for you, because that's where a lot of the value gets unlocked. Do you have a sense? Well, let me back up how many different data sources or platforms does Supermetrics integrate with right now? Anna: It depends on the data destination. So for example, for BigQuery, it's far more complex to add a data source, so we have less of them there. But I would say that more than 50 if we don't count those in detail, or like early access, fully integrated, fully developed platforms, there are around 50 and I have to say that our engineers did a great job because not only do we provide the basic of I call them the basic metrics for some platforms like HubSpot, for example, or Adobe analytics, we also provide the Custom metrics. So if people have created their own metrics, they are also able to fish them out with our tool and like visualize them. Kathleen: So there's about 50 different fully integrated platforms and plenty more kind of in development. Do you have any sense from the way that you all have seen customers using Supermetrics of, on average, how many different sources the typical marketer is pulling in? I'm just curious. Anna: Yeah, of course, I will give you a very, very rough number because there is no generalization to be made. Some people prefer to use one platform very heavily others prefer to use a bundle. But I would say that around maybe like five would be something like an accurate number. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so interesting, because just from my own experience even in small organizations, like, my company is small and in early stage, hopefully will be very big in a year. But, we still, I feel like we have a lot of different platforms. We have marketing automation, we have our website, we have Google Analytics, we have our CRM, like our video marketing platform, our SEO add-ons, there's just so much and pulling it all together is a little bit of a nightmare. And I imagine without a tool like this is super time consuming, and I think that that's probably one of the biggest pain points marketers have, is the amount of time they spend on reporting. Like you said, you work with a lot of different companies I know you and I talked and you have some examples of companies that have used the platform and some stories about how it's helped them save time. Can you maybe share some of that with us? Supermetrics customer stories Anna: Yeah, definitely, and I love sharing those stories because the clients are amazing and some of them have been with us through like absolutely everything. So they started using Grabber, which is now our legacy product so the tool pulls data into Excel. And now they want to try or are already trying Supermetrics for BigQuery you can imagine some of them have used all five of our products, so definitely an evolution there. But coming back to your question one of my favorite client success stories is Sleeping Giant Media. These guys- Kathleen: It's a great name, side note, I just like the company name. Anna: Yeah, they're great and the people they're amazing. So the team is based in Britain, and they've been using Supermetrics like I mentioned for a while. They started with Supermetrics for Google Sheets and now they're looking into Supermetrics for BigQuery. So Sam, big shout out to Sam is our one big Supermetrics fan and he even talked about us at Brighton SEO, which was just amazing we never asked him to but he just went out there and spoke about us. It was really heartwarming. So he told a story that they used to spend around three to four days just on marketing reporting, aka copy, pasting numbers, collecting- Kathleen: Three to four days a month, right? Anna: Three to four days a week. Kathleen: Ah, oh my goodness. Anna: Imagine well, I guess they were not doing it exactly like every week, but maybe like every other week let's say. They are a fully functioning marketing agency providing a wide range of services. So he would get in Monday morning and start collecting data and then they're emailing all the cc's. By Wednesday evening, he would finish all reporting for one maybe two clients, depending on the scope of the project, of course. And then he had Thursday and Friday. So Thursday the client meeting to discuss how campaigns are going, whether there is some adjustments have to be made, et cetera, et cetera. And then it would just leave basically Friday and well, if he's not doing reporting next week, then the next week to implement all the changes. Which to me sounds crazy, because this is something you should not be spending that much time on. This is not a very highly intellectual job like copy, pasting numbers feels so basic -  people doing this and he's started using Supermetrics so he's time basically time he spent on reporting cut down to something like an hour or maybe like an hour and a half and if he needed to do a reporting for absolutely all the clients in the agency that would be in one day. Kathleen: So what does he do with all his newfound free time? Anna: Great question. So he's already talking, well, obviously you started sharing those results with the clients. So he started talking to the clients more and this I think even further reinforces the idea that we help inbound marketers because then we encourage with this free time you can have more human connection. You can ask more relevant questions, you have more time to even think or like process the client's needs. And, in addition to this, he was able to make more relevant analysis now that he had more time. So he could actually process the numbers in his head and think, "Aha, what would our next steps be?" And then react accordingly? So we usually have two types of reports people are doing with Supermetrics. So one type of reporting is this for example, monthly reports where people pull together numbers from all those different sources to assess their monthly progress to see what kind of plans do they have to make for the next month, and then so on and so forth. And the second type of reporting that we commonly see is the ad hoc reporting. So say, okay, this campaign, this bid is acting wild I did not know what happened. Some numbers are going down they're not normal compared to the benchmark or this is someone unusual behavior. Let me just quickly pull out a few numbers and compare them and figure out what's the root cause? Is it something seasonal or is some competitor in the picture, like to understand what's happening. And I really loved one comment, this is from a different client the agency is also based in the UK, they said that it's much, much faster and much easier to pull those numbers with Supermetrics rather than going through the whole Facebook ads UI trying to dig into campaigns and figure out what exactly went wrong. So there you go. So you can also do this ad hoc kind of very quick analysis to see whether some immediate action has to take it and I think this makes you very, very proactive versus being a reactive reporter. You look at the numbers, it's like, "Oh, my God." The moment is gone, things have already happened. But this way, you can very quickly act upon those changes and as a result make your clients happy and avoid some potential setbacks. If you for example, have Black Friday and say something's going wrong then you don't have much time to react. You're losing money basically. So yeah, it really is- Kathleen: Do you have any sense for how often, because Supermetrics really gives a continuous flow of data, correct? Anna: Yeah. How often are marketers reviewing data? Kathleen: And so you could theoretically be checking it all the time. But do you have a sense for how often at least in best practice cases, marketers are looking at that data? Anna: Yeah, so they can set triggers that would refresh data automatically. So I would say that people do so that they set up a reporting dashboard, then they set it up to refresh, so that the data is there for the next day, usually. Of course, they can do like hourly refresh again, if it's a fast pacing, budget campaign, but usually they you do this, I come in to the office, I see fresh data in my dashboard. So every morning, we can do a quick catch up with my colleagues, look at this internal report and see how all of our different clients are doing. If it's an agency, if it's an internal team, then just see how campaigns are performing and then see what we're doing during the day. So that's the usual, I would say, very typical scenario, or according to my experience. Kathleen: And then it seems like, for reporting, like if you're somebody like me, who has to put together a report once a month for your board of directors, you could just really kind of screenshot and paste the graphs into a PowerPoint or something along those lines if you wanted to, or you could distill the data in some other way for like a monthly report. Anna: Yeah, definitely, you can do this. What I would do personally, if I was the one doing this, I would use Google Data Studio because this way you don't have to copy paste anything and you can share this file with really nice dashboards they've updated their design and they're rolling out as far as I know, more comprehensive and even better looking design soon. So you can just connect all the sources put all the numbers and like I mentioned also provide those templates so you can get some inspiration from there. Our designers also do a very nice job creating those lovely designs. For example, we have some Supermetrics for HubSpot templates there in our gallery and I will also give the link to all the materials and the gallery so people can check them out or if they listen to the episodes and try everything themselves. Check out the Supermetrics reporting template gallery But yeah, I would do something like this. And then at the same time, you would not need to refresh the data because the data will be refreshed automatically there. And the board of directors can see new numbers and in addition, you can also connect your custom data source, aka if you have revenue numbers in a database, many companies do have those. So especially if it's a board of directors, they would be very interested in the impact marketing has made on their revenue and other business metrics. So you can pull this data from the database and you can show it side by side with the marketing spend, for example, to give them an even bigger picture. The biggest mistakes marketers are making with data Kathleen: That's great. So any thoughts on, you know, what you see the marketers doing as far as the biggest mistakes they're making with tracking data reporting on it, et cetera? Anna: That's an interesting one. I actually have never thought about this. Mistakes. Well, maybe one thing that comes to my mind is maybe like focusing too much on the vanity metrics as I call them, aka like a lot of clicks or like impressions or worse like it's a impressions. Metrics that give you ... I would say these are maybe like unrelated metrics in a way that they're not very directly related to the business metrics, because for example, in some cases, sales cycle can be quite long. So you cannot accurately assess how much the campaign will generate in the future just simply because people have to go through multiple steps and multiple touch points to even get to the discussion about purchasing your product or tool or license. And so yeah, focusing too much on impressions, focusing too much on metrics then, like I said, not maybe necessarily related. This comes back to the product. You should know your sales cycle and I would suggest breaking it down into different steps and basically monitoring and benchmarking each step and see the conversion rates. I don't exactly remember, a gentleman did an episode with you and he suggested a very good framework for this. There was even Excel spreadsheet. So this is maybe something we could also pulling back to this episode in the comments. Kathleen: I'll have to figure out which one that was. Anna: Yeah, unfortunately, I don't remember. Kathleen: We'll figure it out. Anna: We'll figure it out. Check out the episode Anna references here Kathleen: I know we can do it and we'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah, I know that I've had so many great guests it's interesting who've contributed so many great ideas that oftentimes I was thinking and in fact as I listened to you talk, that I need to go back and listen to some of my earlier episodes, because now I'm on I think I just published Episode Number 117 when we're talking about this, and there's so many earlier ones that are still great in terms of the information they deliver. Who is Supermetrics right for? Kathleen: I imagine that this type of reporting isn't right for everybody because some marketers might have much simpler platforms or maybe not. Maybe it is for everyone can you talk through who do you generally see using a solution like this? Anna: So our most common user personas, so to say, are marketing agencies, so somebody who is doing marketing reporting consecutively and then they have to do it almost every day or at least monthly to put together those good looking reports for their clients. But of course, those marketing agencies can be of different size. There can be a five person as we are now seeing with required there can be a five person very tech savvy small team, which focus on marketing technology and purely some maybe hardcore analytics with the elements of normal distribution and some predictive analytics even or they can be a very big marketing agency like TBWA who want to work client success stories. So yeah, agencies are very typical for us. Then we have internal teams so basically marketing departments, which want to monitor their own campaign, how they're progressing. Then even if they don't have a client, like you just mentioned, reporting to their board of directors and showing what impact marketing has made on their sales et cetera. And also, we've added HubSpot Connector, which is not only marketing, but it's also CRM. So then they connect their marketing data together with the CRM data to give more background information and make a 360 degree analysis. So these are very, very diverse I have to say. Kathleen: Great. So really it sounds like anybody, regardless of size, who has a strong focus on data, tracking data, analyzing data and reporting on data? Anna: Yeah, I would say so. Well maybe there is some categorization, I would say that smaller teams tend to use Google Sheets and Excel aka Spreadsheet tools. If the team is very tech savvy, or they have a lot of historical data, then I would straightaway advise them to use Google BigQuery because they would immediately otherwise hit that cell limit and the reports will be bulky, the reports will be slow. This is just not the right data destination, if you want to store terabytes and even more like 2, 3, 4 years of historical data to see different trends. So to summarize, bigger marketing agencies who have many clients, many big clients like big brands want to own their data because imagine those big brands spend a lot of dollars collecting this data, cleaning this data up. And they want a place where they can successfully store the older data so they can store data in BigQuery as their database and then they can instantly connect data from their Facebook ads, et cetera, to BigQuery through Supermetrics, and then visualize it, for example, in Tableau or Power BI to get the full picture of their marketing reporting. And yeah, smaller teams tend to use Data Studio, Google Sheets, which are completely free tools, so they are not paying per usage for them. So for them that would be cheaper and therefore more suitable option. How to learn more about marketing analytics Kathleen: Okay. Now I'm going to spring a question on you that I didn't tell you I was going to ask you and you may not have the answer because this is totally off the cuff. But as you spoke about this, you talked about, like, when you start to do more, you should move over to BigQuery. And I imagine for some marketers that could seem kind of intimidating, especially if they don't come from a highly analytical background. So are there certain places that you know of, or can recommend if somebody's listening, and they're thinking, "Oh, my God, that sounds really complicated." I need to get up to speed and learn more about analytics and how to use something like BigQuery. Is there somewhere online they can go to learn and become better at analytics? Anna: Yes, and I actually do have to say that we're working on this. We're very well aware of this worry that people have that, oh, I've been using maybe more simple UIs for my whole life. And now there was this whole like jobs and transfers and the whole different environment, which is coming with this BigQuery. So first of all, I do have to say that we're working on creating a bunch of materials for BigQuery specifically that will show how can use Supermetrics products if you're a marketer like videos, where do you click? How do you create different kind of transfers? How to use different kind of joins? So this is something that we're really hoping to provide and also we do have natively build Data Studio Connectors so after a marketer has gathered all the data in BigQuery, they can use our connector to visualize their data in just a few clicks. And, again, as we publish a video you'll see it's very, very simple and what I really love about BigQuery, although it does sound intimidating, but Google does provide learning resources for that as well. And if you look at the UI, you will notice that it's very, very intuitive. So to say, well at first it's maybe a little bit challenging, but once you get a hang of it, it's actually pretty nice, it's quite clear. From our side, we also provide this monitoring suite where you can see how your transfers are performing. Is your data flowing all in nicely? Is there something to worry about or not? Usually all our transfers are fine. So people have mentioned and you can also see from the client success stories that data flowing in nicely and we haven't experienced that much challenges with Supermetrics for BigQuery. But yeah, more resources coming up. Google does provide their own resources and I think it's important for marketers to at least look into this if it's relevant for them, because this is the general trend. This is where the world is going and you want to be ahead. You definitely want to at least understand what kind of technologies are there. I really liked the quote one of our clients have mentioned. So they said, "It feels like Google BigQuery compared with other providers is built with agencies and with marketers in mind." So that sounds reassuring to me at least that people do say that it's actually feels like it's built for marketers. So I would say, yeah, wait for ours resources and then go and explore on your own and try not to be intimidated by this very techie sounding word. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah it can be a lot to think about. But that's great that you guys are working on creating some resources. All right, we can talk about data forever but I have two questions I always ask all of my guests at the end of my interviews, and I would love to get your answers. The first one is, we talked about how the focus on this podcast is about inbound marketing. Who can you think of that whether it's a company or an individual who's just doing inbound marketing really well right now? Anna: Yeah, I will say quite a common answer and I'm pretty sure other guests have already mentioned this company. I think Drift is doing a fantastic job when it comes to inbound marketing, so they have not only created their own category, but when they interact with the people, with their clients, it feels very, very human, which I think they got this trend. This is something many of us need as marketing is becoming more and more techie. We need this kind of catalyst, we need this human connection to feel welcomed. And like I mentioned, they're doing a fantastic job there and one very good example is this one scale playbook, those 41 or 42 plays. As you read through this playbook, you can literally see that the company's trying show their best and make people feel welcomed and warm if they're using their product. Kathleen: Now, that's great. A lot of people have mentioned them, but that's because they're doing great things. Anna: Exactly. Kathleen: Second question is where do you personally go to learn and keep up so that you are able to stay abreast of the cutting edge developments in marketing? Anna: Yeah, so I prefer not to have a one stop shop. So depending on the topic I want to learn more about I go to a variety of different resources. So if I want to learn something more general about what's going on in the world of SaaS marketing, I listen to the SaaStr Podcast. Another amazing podcast I can recommend is the Growth Hub Podcast, and my colleague Edward is a proud host of this podcast. I really love his interviewing style and the guests, which have been on this podcast are simply amazing. So go check it out the Growth Hub Podcast, by Advanced B2B. A couple of other things. So of course I go to MarTech Today and SEJ if I want to learn about news and recent updates, and for us it's especially relevant, because we need to keep up what's going on with all the data source companies. Julian Shapiro, I'm not exactly sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, has a couple of fantastic guides on how to write a great copy, how to build a really nice landing page, how to A/B test. So one really good resource there as well and yeah. How to connect with Anna Kathleen: There's a couple new ones there that I haven't heard about. So we'll definitely check those out and put the links in the show notes. If someone wants to reach out to you, if they have a question about what you've talked about, or they want to learn more about Supermetrics, what is the best way for them to connect with you? Anna: Yeah, so definitely the best way is to reach out to me directly, maybe not through the company Twitter, but I'm @superpoweranna on Twitter. Kathleen: That's such a great handle. Anna: I love it as well. It's like Supermetrics plus me. So yeah, @superpoweranna on Twitter, and yeah, just hit me up with anything. And I also am very actively checking LinkedIn messages so Anna Shutko on LinkedIn, please don't hesitate to connect and I'm very happy to have discussions, answer the questions about anything there. So yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter, I would say, are the two go places. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Great. Well, I will put links to all of your various social accounts in the show notes so people can reach out to you and thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun just to talk about analytics and to geek out for a little bit. If you are listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new as always, I would love it if you would leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. That is how people find us and hear about us. And of course if you know someone else who's doing kick ass in non-marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork and I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks, Anna. Anna: Thank you so much Kathleen. Kathleen: So fun.

Sometimes a business can go through the acquisition cycle once, twice, or even more. A deal that was pivotal to our development back 2011 came back through Quiet Light this year and our very own Brad Wayland is here talking to the buyer, Richard Bell, about his recent purchase of a business we originally sold 8 years ago. Throughout his career, Richard Bell has mostly been in the high tech world. He's worked in sales, product development, marketing, business development, and mergers and acquisitions. He stayed mainly on the strategic side of running a business before deciding to make a purchase of his own last year. He started off small, looking to take his breadth of behind-the-scenes knowledge to bat with YUGSTER, the e-commerce business he bought. While Richard's thorough due diligence process may have initially overwhelmed the seller, the two worked well together in the end. Richard did a lot of the work up front, showed the seller he was serious, and greatly reduced the risk for problems once the deal was done. Episode Highlights: How Richard went about the search process and decided to buy this business. Factors that made the purchase good a fit. Who YUGSTER sells to. How the office and staff structure has changed since Richard took over. Richard's SBA purchase choice and how he navigated the process. Advice for anyone considering an SBA purchase. The rebrand and other changes that Richard made with Yugster, now called Until Gone. Successes and growth he's seen since the changes to the site. The software and the technology he's using and how he's are taking advantage of modern applications and platforms. Ways shopify has become the go to e-commerce cart choice for vendors. The biggest challenge Richard has encountered since the acquisition. Words of advice for others looking to delve into the purchase process. Transcription: Mark: One of the darkest periods in the history of Quiet Light Brokerage happened around 2011. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with Quiet Light at that time. And due to some personal situations going on with health issues with a family member of mine I took my eye off the ball of Quiet Light for a little bit of time and found ourselves in a position where frankly we didn't have a lot of money coming in. We had a lot more money going out and not a lot of deal flow at the same time. It was at that point in time when a great listing, a great business literally just fell on my lap and I was able to get that listing on the market, get it sold within a few days or at least found a buyer within a few days and it really represented kind of a life vest for me which really helped in bringing Quiet Light Brokerage profits back off the brink of extinction. One of the great things about this business that I love is seeing some of the companies that we touch early on grow and sometimes come back to us. When I originally started Quiet Light Brokerage my previous company that I'd sold came back through Quiet Light. I sold it again. I actually ended up selling that company a total of three times which was pretty fascinating to do. Today we don't have Joe on the introduction. We have Brad because Brad talked to one of his previous clients; a buyer that just closed an acquisition and they bought the business that served as a life vest for me back in 2011. Brad, how was the conversation with Richard? Brad: You know it's really great. I didn't actually know that background. I think he sent me an email and said hey I've got a lot on my plate. This is a good listing. Do you want to take a peek at it and see if you can put a value on it and help them get it sold? So I didn't know that backstory I just knew that you had sold it once previously. So it's one of those situations where we had a guy that was in Richard the buyer; we had a guy that was looking for an investment. He had inquired on a little tiny listing that I had out at the time it's like a hundred thousand dollars and came to the conclusion that it wasn't a good fit. But I had picked up on that this guy was like a serious M&A guy. I could already tell from the get-go like why is this guy looking at a hundred thousand dollar listing? This guy supposed must be looking at much larger listings than this. So I was a little surprised and ended up floating in the details of this listing that we had for a daily deal site that kind of needed someone with the ability to kind of handle a lot of moving parts. I felt like he seemed like the perfect personality for it. And so I floated it his way and the next day he sent me an LOI and it was just really smooth sailing from there on out from his side of things. He just was a really great buyer to work with and so I wanted to bring him on the podcast. I think he's done several things that have been really interesting with that company. Mark: How is this due diligence process different than say your average buyer out there? Brad: Yes. So when we do these deals they always look a little bit different. After we get an LOI why we are involved sometimes a lot in the due diligence process. Sometimes we're not involved very much at all. We have kind of standard folders and things that people want to look at; bank statements or proofs out of PayPal or your credit card provider. Things like that where people can kind of verify the numbers. In the case with Richard I found out after he got under LOI he had done like 200 million dollars in acquisitions in the corporate world. He was a very seasoned and experienced M&A guy. I can't remember how many transactions he had done but he had been responsible for some very large deals for I think a publicly-traded company. And so he put his diligence request together and he said hey I'm working on my diligence request and I sent them over to the seller. I think the seller about passed out. It was just; there was nothing wrong with it. It was very thorough but when you get these really experienced guys sometimes you think that means it's going to be a piece of cake for the seller but it doesn't always mean that. Sometimes if you've got a seller that's really done it's kind of like hey I'm just ready to move on and I don't want to look at it anymore. It can be a little bit of a challenge. And so we definitely dealt with that a little bit on this one where we've got a really seasoned buyer who had a very nice thorough package of diligence information that he wanted gathered. And then we had a seller that was really ready to be finished. And when he got the packet I think he felt like oh my goodness I just put all this work into getting the listing ready now we're going to go through this diligence process that is way more exhausting than what I did whenever I bought it on the front end. But honestly it was two great guys; the seller was a great seller, the buyer was a great buyer and they worked very well together and I think they've continued to be friends post-transaction. Mark: That the seller that you worked with was the buyer when I sold this business, and he still remains one of my favorite people that I've worked with out at Quiet Light. He is a fantastic guy. I think people sometimes get intimidated especially in the sell-side when they see these really long due diligence lists. But I've learned over the years, and I don't know how you feel about this Brad, but I've learned over the years that a thorough due diligence list is a good sign. It's usually a sign that the buyer is extraordinarily serious because look you have to generate all the information the buyer has to digest that information and that's really tough. And it also reduces the risk after the sale. Because if they're doing a thorough due diligence the chances of something coming back on you after are pretty small because they've done their homework. Brad: Yeah I totally agree with that. I actually tell my sellers all the time if they are complaining about the due diligence process I always tell them the work you're putting in now is saving you headache later. If you're going to go ahead and give them all the things that they need today they're not going to be the type of buyer that's coming back to you and saying hey man I really need you to help me with this or that I need to take advantage of these hours that we carved into the APA and train me on these different things. And I definitely have seen the transactions where they don't ask for much and then I find out later that the buyers had to come back to the seller several times asking for things and it seems like it is a better situation to just kind of lay all the cards on the table and do the work upfront and kind of have the ability to be done with the business and kind of transition to your next thing. Mark: That's a lot of chitchat on our part let's go ahead and listen to the interview. Brad: Welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. I'm your host today Brad Wayland and we are joined today by Richard Bell. Hey Richard how are you today? Richard: I'm doing great, thanks. Nice to see you. Brad: Good. Yeah. So we've been doing this series of podcasts on folks that have bought something from Quiet Light and now we're kind of following up with them; seeing how things went, learning about why they bought, what they learned early on, what the challenges are and so today's kind of one of those profiles. And this one has a really unique kind of proposition that I want to kind of get into later but we usually start off by just getting some background. We don't do like these fancy intros. We let our guests kind of describe themselves. So Richard give the profile of what your career has looked like and tell me kind of where you've been. Richard: Sure, I'm happy to. I've done a variety of different roles which I think is one of the reasons that set me up well to do or set me up to do well with this job of running this business. I mostly worked in the high tech world with one particular company called Akamai Technologies. And within that company, I had spent time in sales roles, technical roles, product development, marketing, a lot of time in business development, and mergers and acquisitions with business development side and really partnership focused. And the roles I had after I left Akamai were very similar positions where I had a chance to really look at strategic issues, touch on a lot of different things across the whole breadth of running a business so it set me up well for the position I'm in now. Brad: Yeah that's great. I remember; I think you had inquired on another listing that I had. I think it was a pretty small listing and we got talking about it and you gave me some background I think in the time you told me like hey I ran M&A for a big corporation for a long time and gave me some pretty staggering numbers in terms of the dollars of deals you had helped close for your business. And when I heard it I was thinking about this potential listing it was coming up for this business called Yugster which I thought was the strangest name. I was not familiar with it even though we had sold it in the past but Yugster was Yours Until Gone and it was Yugster.com. And Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light called me and said hey we sold this business like years and years ago and now the guy that we sold it to is interested in selling it again and asked me if I would like to take a look at it. So when you started talking and I could hear your operational background I thought this might be a good fit for you and I think I just said hey I've got an idea I want to kind of float to you and I feel like that's kind of how we started it. Is that what you remember? Richard: Absolutely. I mean I started looking for a business probably six or nine months before you and I ever even touched base. Part of that was me doing homework on sort of what was out there and how to look at these businesses that were a lot smaller than the kinds of things that I'd looked at before where we're talking sale prices in the nine figures; so very large businesses, large multiples is in stack. And so I wasn't quite sure how to go about buying frankly a smaller business. And there's a lot of chat out there. I mean you know that and you know there's a lot of brokers out there who would just put a listing out for anything. So you end up learning quite a bit about what's really there and what's meaningful just by going through that process. And we did look at a business for another e-com site that you had posted up there and I think we had decided it was a little bit too seasonal for what we were doing. And then you threw the Yugster thing out there. I think it hadn't even gone public and I'm like Yugster? As a marketing guy that was like just you know what that is. But yeah that's exactly the story and so I think when I got my teeth around that one it actually made a lot of sense for me. I was kind of excited about it. Brad: Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong but so the business model was it had been a drop shipping business I think since day one and it still had a very impressive; you're looking at it and I'm looking at the sign and I'm thinking this looks kind of antiquated. It looks a little bit like it's seen its better days. But when I looked at the results and we're talking about a low eight-figure business that was on some slightly declining trends and I could just tell that the light bulb kind of went off for you about like I think I might better inject some life into this and I clearly could see that you'd be able to handle the size of a business that was from what you had done before. But what specifically about Yugster was interesting to you? Like when you first looked at it what were you thinking like this is a good fit for me because of what? Richard: Like I said I went through this process where I started talking to some different brokers about a variety of different businesses to help me get educated about what's out there. There are a lot of businesses out there especially in the e-commerce space that are really it is an Amazon store. Somebody who is importing some private label from China and then they're essentially listing it on Amazon and having Amazon do fulfillment and so forth. It doesn't, and the issue I got to is that it doesn't really leverage my skills. There is not a lot of value that you can add to some of those kinds of businesses. Maybe you get a few more distribution channels or what have you. What I saw with Yugster was really interesting to me that it was a fully operating business. Yes, it was drop ship but they had relationships with a sizable number of vendors. They had a functioning platform. They were not dependent on other marketplaces like Amazon which could be all over the place or eBay or whatever. They had their own storefront. It had been established I think in 2005 or early 2006 when it went live. So it had a long life which is really important in terms of longevity and the brand and so forth. And the other thing that I; the two other things that I really looked at and I liked about it, one was it had a core staff. There were talented people that had a good resume and seem to know what they were doing. And it also had a really solid customer base. They had a loyalty program they've run for many years. These were customers that had been buying from Yugster repeatedly and they had it tiered up and they were kind of passionate about the business. And these sort of strong customer base, loyal customer base that's established, the staff is there and a technology platform that I thought I could really make a difference with because I do have a strong tech background; all of those things kind of came together for me and made me want to dive in with Yugster. Brad: Yeah that's interesting. So of course as just kind of a layperson when I go to the site I think of it as like a daily discount kind of idea. I see like maybe a generation ago iPad or MacBook or something like that. Is it retail-focused folks like me or is it more like small businesses that are like hey we need iPads for our production floor? We don't need the latest and greatest we need to get 10 of this. Is it a mix of those types of customers or who really is the customer that comes to this place? Richard: A really good question and it's changed a bit. So the business model just to kind of flesh that out a little bit more for the audience it is a daily deal site. And what that mostly involves is sort of inventory end so people might have a couple hundred or something left and they just want to get rid of it. It could be there's a lot of refurbished product out there that like you're saying is a year or two behind and for most people you need the latest and greatest Apple MacBook Pro or is one that's two or three years old is going to work just fine for you even the things like vacuums and what have you. And so there's a range of products but we get them; we typically really focus on running them for a period of a few days. We sell out the inventory and then we move on to the next product and cycle through it. Our customers have; we're historically very male. So 70, 80% male buyers; the profile would be sort of bargain hunters, people that are somewhat shopaholic shows up in the mix as well. Since we've moved the business over to; I took it over last year and we kind of modified the site and the product mix and we're actually closer to 50-50 male-female at this point because we have a lot more home goods than we used to. And one of the things so your point about selling to businesses I've actually noticed a significant increase in the number of orders from businesses. We really used to have only a small handful but now I've seen things like schools. I've seen a school order like 20 Chrome books from us. They're going to use them with smaller kids and they just don't need the latest and greatest. They just need a laptop. Ipads, as you suggested, is another great example, I've seen a bunch of those go out for businesses that are needing it but the latest and greatest current generation isn't required for what they're doing. They're doing order entry or checking people out kind of thing. Yeah but it's definitely shifted and I think some of that is the changes that we've made in the site and the business as well which I think we'll get into this. Brad: Yeah. You mentioned the staff I kind of want to jump to that. So from what I recall you're in Washington are you in the Seattle area? Richard: I am yeah. Brad: And then this business was in Salt Lake I believe and there was a physical office there. And how many employees were in that office? Richard: There was about nine. Brad: Okay, and so what have you done with that? Have you kept that office there, did you retain that staff, what have you done in terms of changing that since you bought the business? Richard: Great question; so because of my background being in tech most of my career the majority of the people that I manage were actually remote, some as far away as China or India in different roles that I have. And so I'm very personally very comfortable running a remote staff. And so one of the things that we did is actually close that office because it wasn't adding much in the way of value and home office everybody. So the whole organization now is based out of their own homes and we use a lot of EG Suite technologies or a lot of video meetings, audio calls, whatever, Slack to communicate and stay very, very highly interactive between us. But everybody just works from home in their jammies or sweats or whatever [inaudible 00:18:56.1] worked. So I think you asked about did we keep the staff and we kept 100% of the employees. We gave everybody a job offer as they came over because we wanted to really evaluate what they could do with different leadership and sort of reenergizing the business. And we made some with that some staffing turnover since people that pursued other opportunities or maybe weren't the right fit for us where we were going. But I'd say about 80% of the staff is the same as what it was when I acquired the business. Brad: Yeah that's really interesting you know at Quiet Light we run a distributed team as well and so we've got eight brokers in the States, we've got two overseas, but it is an interesting timeframe that we live in where I actually go to an office. If you see behind me my house is not behind me but I have five children at home so that can be challenging at the house. I choose to rent an office but I do think it is interesting in this day and age that remote works so well and I feel like as a general rule people are happier when they can choose where they go to work. Richard: And I will actually tell you that the last round of hiring we did was for some new buyers that we brought into the business and the ability for both of them to work from home was actually a big competitive advantage in getting them to come on board. Brad: Yeah, that's really interesting. So we don't really use this as like a sales pitch but as you're sitting there talking about what you guys do; I mean our listeners, we have a lot of listeners to this podcast and a lot of them are small entrepreneurial shops, some are like PE firms and you've got your like solo entrepreneurs so I'm just kind of curious where do our listeners kind of fit in to the kind of product mix that you guys offer at your business? Like what are the types of things that they might be most interested in that you sell on a daily basis now? Richard: Sure. I mean I would say for that kind of audience you're probably looking at mostly the technology and maybe some of the home goods for example. So on the tech side, we sell all kinds of computers; Windows and Macs, desktops, laptops, Chrome books, iPads, even phones. Obviously, that technology suite is something that just about every entrepreneur or business will need to some degree. If you're somebody who's looking for like I said the absolute latest and greatest it's not going to be on our side and I'll be upfront like we don't sell the latest Mac books at all. Almost all of our tech in that sense is refurbished and you pay for what you get. I mean if you're buying a refurbished laptop and you're buying 300 bucks for a Mac Book it's going to be older. But for an awful lot of people that are simply doing email that kind of thing that works just fine. And we also have a range where we go from let's say a Mac Book at 300 all the way up for a Mac Book at 1,200. So you get to choose sort of what level you want and what you really need. But there are generally some pretty good bargain prices in terms of the type of technology and look that people are after. On good side, I mean coffee bar if you've got a home office everybody needs coffee. You can't function without it. So one of our vendors; an awesome vendor is the exclusive factory refurbished provider for Ninja products. Ninja makes some incredible home appliances. There was this great little ninja coffee bar that's sort of a single serving fresh ground coffee maker and they sell like crazy. People love them. And so yeah I think there are some tech products and some home products that would be a good fit for any business person. Brad: Yeah that's great. I want to get into some of the changes that you've made but one thing I want to kind of back up to that kind of struck me and not something I've seen that often was your deal structure. I remember talking to you and kind of floating you the price and you said yeah I'm a cash buyer so we can leverage that; no problem. And then when we got to LOI and you called me and said hey I think I'm going to utilize some SBA on this and I'm going to put down way more than what they'll require but I've got an SBA lender that I want to tap into. I just kind of like for you to explain to our listeners kind of as much as you're willing to share about that process what you're thinking was and like basically how you kind of navigated that SBA process? Richard: Yeah actually that's a really good question because I guess it is a little bit unique. I did have the cash going in to pay 100% of it down, the issue for me really was just in one-word flexibility; being able to conserve my capital, put down enough to be meaningful so the SBA approval process was a no brainer. But not be running really tight on sort of the amount of down payment I did but keeping and a good chunk of reserve capital because there's always been sort of a possibility that I might acquire other businesses that I would add on to this as well and you want to have that flexibility in place. And I also wanted to make sure that once I had acquired the business I didn't want to have to use all the capital for the acquisition. Obviously, you need operating capital and you would build that into any plan. But I also wanted to be in a situation where I had enough investment capital inside the business that I could invest in the company and make the changes that I wanted. And so when I looked at the overall sort of combination of things it made a lot of sense to sort of mix us up a little bit and take; I would have to look at the paperwork again but I think we did something like 40% down cash and 60% finance. And what that essentially did for me is mean that within the business I had a good chunk of capital available to pay for all the technology changes and enhancements that I wanted to make to move the business forward because we knew we would need to do that going. Brad: Yeah I found it very interesting; so SBA we have just a massive number of people reaching out to us looking for SBA eligible businesses and wanting to talk to us about it. And I will say that one of the common pitfalls that I think that our buyers kind of find themselves in is trying to maximize the SBA situation for themselves. So a person thinks okay on the high-level point an SBA loan can be a 10% down kind of situation. That's in the absolute most ideal scenario would be a 10% down. So someone has $250,000 in capital that they can put down on a business and so their mind immediately goes to okay then I'll buy a 2 ½ million dollar business. And what I've kind of found over time doing these SBA deals is that those end up being a tough deal. If anything goes even remotely wrong then now all of a sudden the deal is falling apart; maybe the valuation doesn't come back high enough, maybe there's more inventory than was expected and SBA can't cover the inventory. So actually you were the first person that I've had to do that and I've had a couple of people do it since but you're the first person that came and said hey I can pay cash but I'm going to go ahead and use SBA. And honestly, I think SBA has a lot of advantages and a lot of disadvantages. The advantages are from a broker standpoint it really opens up our buying pool. We can offer something as an SBA. We really open up the number of buyers that can come in. But for the seller, SBA can be a grind to get through especially in these situations where people are putting down the minimum amount. I think with what you did was interesting because I never got a single phone call from the SBA lender in your deal. I never heard anything about it. You kept me updated on kind of where things are going and that is not typical for what we do with at Quiet Light. A lot of times we're introducing them to an SBA lender and then we're getting the play by play and we're delivering information back to the sellers about what's going on. In your case you said I'm going to use SBA. I thought you put down 50%; maybe you put down 40% I can't remember, but you put down a big chunk and just said I want the flexibility and I think that really proved to show just a really wise move on your part from a business decision and it didn't hold us up at all. We literally got that thing closed right on time where we were expecting in terms of timing at least the way that I'd kind of set the expectations for our seller. Richard: I would just add to that Brad. I think the advice I'd give anyone considering buying a business is get your house in order. One of the reasons the SBA process on our side went smoothly was because our finances and sort of our credit rating; everything was cleaned up so that there was nothing weird on our credit reports. It was all sort of looking pretty and accounts that needed to be closed or resolved were done. So when the bank looked at things; they look at your credit report, they look at your house, they look at your mortgage, your payment histories you want to be able to give them a very clean robust picture and be able to give it to them boom here it is. And then we also had a very clear picture of the financials and what we were going to do with the business. We gave them a 30-page business plan that essentially laid out here's the financials, here's what we're going to invest in, here's the changes we're going to make, here's the timeline, here's the results and they were conservative. They weren't sort of wild willy-nilly captain. And so between getting our own personal numbers kind of cleaned up; and this is everything just from credit numbers to even just having a nice clean resume. I mean you're applying to SBA and they want to see your business history and what you've done. So you can't take the resume that you use for your job five years ago and just slap it down. It's got to show the bank that you know how to run a business. And so there's a lot of little things that you can do to get ready and so we had those in place before you and I even got into this acquisition process. The other comment I would add about doing the sort of 10% down, I mean we could have gotten approved on a bigger deal at 10% down. I would never have done it in a million years. And part of this maybe comes from my M&A experience which is obviously a lot larger kind of mix. But one thing I learned is that no matter how good you are at diligence, no matter what you know about this particular industry, any business you have is going to have some surprises and it's going to have some ups and downs. And so one of the problems I see with people that would be doing sort of this 10% in sort of right on the bleeding edge you're not going to have enough capital to be really flexible. You're going to struggle with investments and here's, and this is maybe not something that people don't really think about that much but buying a business is stressful. You're running a new business. You're investing. This is potentially your whole income, your life, what you're doing, a good chunk of your personal assets are going to get tied up and it's stressful even if you have tons of money to play with. Putting yourself right on the edge where your finances are squeezed that tight where you're doing 10% down and that's everything that you've got it just adds to the stress level in a way that's not good for running the business. It's not good for you personally on a health basis. So I think if I can look back at it and say what's my advice to people to get through an acquisition process using SBA prepare; good credit cleaned up, get all your documentation in order, get your resume pretty and all that stuff but don't squeeze yourself so tight that you don't have flexibility, you don't have capital to invest, you're going to panic if you have any ups and downs. It's not worth it. That's too much stress when you really want to be thinking clearly, being able to make smart decisions with some perspective on it. You for sure know this Brad it's really hard to make perspective when you're tight on the finances and you're panicking. So all those things factored in sort of where I went to. But I would definitely encourage people to make sure they've got enough of a cushion and flexibility to run their business confidently. Brad: Now I totally share your thoughts on that. And in my operating days that is really exactly how we tried to run the business. If you don't have a good amount of cash on hand it just makes something that's already difficult to do running a business that much more difficult and puts additional strain on you whenever you get some of those unknown kinds of problems that come up. One of the things I remember about you; I actually don't refer to you by name I tell people one time I sold a business to this M&A guy that had done a lot of corporate deals and let me tell you something if you think that diligence folder that you saw today is involved I should show you his because I remember it was a thorough deck of information. You had that thing all laid out perfectly. It was like okay one of the things I think I learned there is the pros have seen everything. So when you laid out that diligence folder and I saw it I was like it was organized, it was great, there was nothing wrong with but it was lot. It was a lot of information. You're very thorough, very detailed, and it kind of makes sense to me that it's gone well for you doing this business. Okay, I want to get into; so I was thinking about doing some podcast episodes and I think I emailed you maybe a month ago and said hey I went to a Yugster and there's no more Yugster. So talk about the rebrand and then let's talk about some other changes that you made. Richard: Yugster had a cult following behind it. And cult followings are great. There's a lot of loyalty that goes into that. But it was not a brand that was going to work well to sort of reach out to a larger audience. And so we, the team; I got the leadership team that was in place one of the first things we did was restructure internally to kind of give them really clean roles and responsibilities in purchasing and marketing because it had all been sort of blurred before. And what we then took off and did is really sit down and think about the kinds of changes we wanted to make in the business. The brand was a big piece of it. And we did really dig in on the idea of keeping the extra brand but we also knew that we needed to give it a refresh, improve the look and feel of the website, and sort of get it to a healthier sort of message and make it more attractive to people. In the end, when we kind of dug through it Yugster as a brand itself wasn't going to scale for us. It wasn't going to bring in a larger audience that we were sort of now starting to pursue and chase. So we spent some time doing; figure out what brands you want to work with, see what domain names are out there. We knew we wanted a dot com. We also knew that we wanted to keep a little synergy with the Yugster. We didn't want to go too far away from it and so as you mentioned, in the beginning, Yugster had become Yours Until Gone and YUG would show up throughout the branding of the site. The loyalty program was called YUG points. There was a lot of YUG that showed up. And so we figured if we kept the Until Gone piece of it that would be a nice connection. And so it turned out that that brand or that domain was actually available for purchase. This is where we made some of our capital investment; it was actually buying that domain name. And it's worked out great. I would say that the marketing team did; it could be a case study frankly in the rebranding going from Yugster to Until Gone. I won't say everything was perfect but it was as good as I've ever seen it done. And what the team put together and it was fantastic. We had a few customers that didn't make it over but the vast majority did. And we went live with the new Until Gone site which we can talk about some of the software stuff we did here in a second on September 1st. And I can tell you, Brad, if I showed you the detailed financials you'll see them start to grow through December and then there's this inflection point September 1st where they just kicked up and you start seeing this nice steady growth curve. And I think a lot of it had to do with we made changes over the summer to the Yugster's site to clean it up, make it a little bit more polished, but there's only so much that we were able to do. Once we went to the new site which was a completely revamped look and feel and brand I think it; for all the customers that we were bringing in, it just gave them confidence. That look and feel was a lot more professional; a lot more polished than the old site had been. And while we lost some of the cult kinkiness that was tied in with Yugster I think the more professional side appealed to a much larger group who were more willing to buy and make purchases through the site. And that's why we see the growth and that's continued to accelerate as we came into 2019. Brad: Yeah when I saw it actually; so I was kind of going through my list of deals and I've closed 20 deals at Quiet Light since I've been here and so I was kind of just looking at it and trying to think about what would be good podcast episodes. So I'd gone through 14 of them or so when I hit Yugster and as soon as I hit it and I went to the site I was like I know there's a story here because I mean it looks fantastic. I remembered what the old site looked like. I see what the new one looks like. It's like I could totally get that you were very thoughtful about how you approached it and how you kind of kept that Until Gone. I think that was really smart. So I totally could see the thought process from a marketer's standpoint of what you were doing and it seems to me like it did go really well just from an optics standpoint on my part. So it doesn't surprise me that your trends are good. We're getting somewhat short on time let's get into the software a little bit. I want to know what kinds of changes you've made to the stack and just kind of go wherever you want with that but I kind of want to know what you've been doing there? Richard: You know we can make a podcast about that in and of itself. There were some really interesting lessons learned I guess but I'll try to keep it focused for the group because not everyone's a techie. But basically, we have replaced 100% of the stack at this point. The original plan had been to upgrade the existing stack and put a new front end on it the new Until Gone front end basically and then do a bunch of workarounds creating APIs. And what APIs are for anyone who's not familiar with it they are programmatic interfaces that allow third parties to engage with your site. And so, for example, we wanted our vendors, our partners who were doing shipping to be able to work with us via API rather than exchanging text file CSVs for example. And the reason for that is just sort of accuracy, the time to market, and so forth. And there were lots of opportunities to do that to help our vendor and ourselves frankly work better together. Once we got into the details and we started looking at the Until Gone site design and what we wanted to do it would have required too many changes to the existing platform that would have left behind, in all honesty, a lot of stuff that we still needed to change. And so I think we closed the deal the first week of May last year; May 7th, 2018, by the end of June we had made the decision to do a full stack replacement top to bottom. And so we sourced a company actually here in Seattle to do a new website front end design and to then actually do the implementation on Shopify. We're on Shopify plus because we're large enough that we need to be on the bigger platform with the capabilities that they give us. And then that meant that we had to build a new back end because with the number of vendors we work with, with the way we work, with the flexibility we wanted to do it would not have been possible for us to just rely on Shopify. Now that won't be the case for a lot of e-commerce vendors but we operate more like a marketplace and we need to process a lot of purchase orders out to our vendors and take products in and not every product goes on-site and so forth. So we had to have control over that back end and so essentially we built out a completely new platform stack that operates; there's an admin portal, there was a huge amount of infrastructure for integrating with Shopify and providing all the APIs that we essentially built out. And what we've done since then is build some custom APIs. We've integrated with ShipStation which is a shipping management tool that a lot of our vendors utilize. We've integrated with ChannelAdvisor. We've integrated with a great company called Quitch just similar to ChannelAdvisor but a little bit more technology-focused. We're finalizing an integration with Celera Cloud which is another one of these integrator platforms that a lot of vendors and suppliers utilize. And so that's given us just a huge amount of flexibility because it was sort of getting rid of a lot of the deadwood that had existed previously. We've been able to do things that we weren't able to do previously and really take advantage of technology to reach our customers better. And so some examples of that we actually built a little ad engine so that we could serve our own products as ads to our customers and notification emails. We've done things with targeting where we've essentially built kind of a; think of it as a mini CRM, customer relationship management platform where the marketing emails that we send to them are fully targeted to their interests, their likes, what they prefer. Each of these changes as we've gone into the stack had given us sort of an incremental growth and helped us improve that curve, show better metrics, and have better control. It's also allowed us to really tightly integrate with our vendors and we continue to invest in it. We have some new capabilities coming out this week frankly that we want to get in place before Q4 that will allow us to do some things that will really improve our shipping and our customer service related to that because that's always a big issue with customers. So I'm happy to get into more it detailed Brad but I don't want to take up the time just talking about coding and Google Cloud and what we did. That's not our focus here. Brad: No, I think you hit some great highlights there and actually it's been interesting to watch Shopify and it's kind of dominance really in the kind of hosted stores platform. I think WordPress as a CMS is now like 35% of the world's websites and I can tell you from my perspective of operating for many years and kind of coming from that custom website world where we built everything from scratch because it gave us more flexibility and then seeing the kind of out of the box solutions come on the scene and then seeing Shopify and Volusion and WiX and these other players come on the scene. But it really seems like Shopify has asserted some dominance in the space at this point or just I mean there's entire; I'll be speaking at an event in San Diego next month and at that event, it's Shopify sellers. I'm going on a podcast in two weeks. It's just Shopify folks that work with Shopify every day. And we find a lot of our sellers now when they have high margin products are really utilizing the Facebook Pixel for marketing and for some reason Shopify plus the Facebook Pixel is just the combo that everyone wants to use. It's just Shopify is just kind of become this I think of it became kind of like WordPress for the CMS. I feel like Shopify is kind of becoming the e-commerce shopping cart or store hosted platform for the e-com side. Did you have any struggle with choosing to go with Shopify? Was that a tough decision for you? Richard: No, not really I mean I think we really looked at Shopify and BigCommerce. They're really the sort of two that we were down to at that point. We did look at Magento which is both a platform that you can just open source and build your own but they also have a hosted option. That was much more complicated and had a tech stack that we weren't sure we really wanted to work with. So it really came down to Shopify versus BigCommerce. And honestly, it was a combination of the partner we ended up wanting to work with was more comfortable with Shopify. And we also looked at Shopify and felt like you were saying given their market share and their size it was a good fit and I think it made sense to do that. I will say I came from a platform world so I'm very comfortable with using these kinds of platforms and I will say there are tradeoffs. There are huge positives; as an example of a positive, when I wanted to implement Apple Pay on the site and our payment processor already supported it. So I did all the things I needed to do with Apple, I hooked it up with my payment processor, went into Shopify, one checkmark and it's live and ready to go. The Facebook Pixel is another one. You configure the Facebook stuff in Shopify, it's done like that. Google Analytics is the same thing and so there's a lot of functionality that's built into the platform that you don't have to customize; that you don't have to tweak but you can still change things like your notification emails to make them personalized for your look and feel. So I think there are some really great things there in working with a platform. The flip side there is some loss of control. You don't have necessarily quite the same flexibility. There was a feature we were talking about the other day in my management team's meeting. The reality was if it was on our platform we could do it in a minute. It's just on Shopify it's going to be difficult to get it live and implemented not because of anything I say it would be a real flaw with Shopify but just because when someone else is running a platform there's sort of some constraints that you get into it. But I'm comfortable with the Shopify decision. I think I'd make the same one again. I think given their size, given the number of big brands that are using them now it's a good solid fit. So yeah I would go there again. Brad: Okay. And one of the things I kind of wanted to at least ask was the biggest challenge; what's been the biggest unforeseen kind of thing that you have had to tackle at least that you're comfortable sharing? Richard: Sure. I mean there are always surprises in acquiring any business and challenges are going to come up. You end up having to do more of something than you expected and so forth and it kind of throws you. I would say in this case I was actually; probably the biggest challenge was the technology side. Not because it was inherently a bad decision or difficult to rebuild the platform and do what we did; it was absolutely the right decision. I guess the point I would make is we weren't expecting to make that decision for 12 months. It was kind of something we were looking at as a 2019 project and it ended up being a 2018 project. And so what I had actually hoped to do was use the existing platform and like I said give it a facelift; redo the front end, make it into Until Gone but rely on the same core operational platform and just maybe do a few extensions. And it didn't end up being possible to get where I knew that we needed to be. From a marketing; branding capability perspective we had to make the changes. And so basically from July through the end of September, it was heads down coding. I wrote more code in those two months than I think I had in the previous 10, 20 years. Brad: Wow. Richard: My career has not been as a coder I've been in sort of management but we had to build a completely new platform from scratch and so it was a lot of stuff that we were putting together to make it work. And that continued through Q4 and even into this year as we add new features. And like I said earlier now we're at a point where we're really adding some really unique distinctive capabilities. We've even thought about spinning out some businesses to take the stuff that we've built and Shopify has this huge app ecosystem; apps that you can plug into Shopify and extend its core capabilities. A lot of what we've now built are things that are unique and not available within that ecosystem and so we think there are some opportunities just to extend that and make that sort of additional part of the business. But I would say that was my number one sort of challenge or I guess surprise and sort of what we did. And at times it's taken me away from running the business in a way that I wanted to. But I think it's ended up like I said being in a good place at this point. Brad: And it's really interesting and I do think the Shopify kind of app marketplace is pretty vibrant. We had a lead come through a couple of weeks ago that we were discussing among the team, it was a collection of some apps and I think it was bringing in about $80,000 a month and recurring revenue from a group that had built several apps in the space. So I do think that there's a pretty large market there to tap into. Well, I really want to thank you for coming on the show today. It's really helpful to our audience. I hope it ends up being helpful to you. People reach out to me all the time when I'm on these podcasts so I hope that you get to make some good connections from coming on and giving us some of your time. Do you have any parting pieces of advice for those looking to buy or sell an online-based business? Richard: I guess since I haven't sold a business of this size I'll maybe not give advice on that just yet but as a buyer, I would say don't sit on the fence. It's one of the best things you can possibly do. Get out of your corporate life. Find a broker that you trust, that you like, that you can build a relationship with and tell them what you're looking for. Don't make stuff up or blow smoke or try to sound bigger than you are. Be honest with them. Tell the broker what you're looking for, what your strengths are, what kind of things would keep you engaged and challenged so that they have a good idea because their job is to connect you. So if you don't give them the honest picture they can't help you. But don't hesitate. Owning your own business, running your own destiny I think is something that's just fantastic. It's challenging. It can be scary at times but if you're thinking about it go for it. And I've definitely liked working with Brad. He was always a straight shooter and honest and I'm not saying this just because you're on. I'd say this to anybody but finding a broker that is a straight shooter that's honest and upfront that makes it easy; that's huge. And I loved working with Quiet Light and Brad and I would definitely do it again if I had another business to go after. Brad: I appreciate that and honestly, you were one of the easiest buyers that I've ever worked with. I mean you brought all this experience to the table and honestly that is what we do, we're matching people up a lot of times. That's the game that we're playing and we may or may not be helpful in the other aspects of it but really to do well as a business adviser in Quiet Light we really need to be able to listen to what people are telling us they want and then pair that up with things that we have that are for sale. And I don't know that I'd take a whole lot of credit for it but I do think that you were the perfect person to take over this business and I'm really glad to hear that it's going really well for you and I hope that you continue to have success in the future. Richard: Thank you, Brad. I think it was a good fit and I hope the improvement we're seeing continues. It's a great course we're on and I appreciate your help making this connection happen. Brad: Thanks a lot for coming on today Richard. We really appreciate it. For the listeners, we will see you the next time. Thank you. Links and Resources: Richard's Business

Добрый день уважаемые слушатели. Представляем новый выпуск подкаста RWpod. В этом выпуске: Ruby Recyclable cache keys in Rails, Setting up Rails 6 app with multiple databases on Heroku, Rails 6: Introduces explicitly adding rails server handler option и Fullstaq Ruby: First impressions, and how to migrate your Docker/Kubernetes Ruby apps today What if I called FLUSHALL on your Redis instance?, Ciao - HTTP checks & tests (private & public) monitoring и Comma Splice - fixes CSVs with unquoted commas in values Web React v16.9.0 and the Roadmap Update, VS Code 1.37 и JavaScript: What's new in ES2019 Metaprogramming in JavaScript with jscodeshift, TypeLighter.js - JS TypeWriter и Resemble.js : Image analysis and comparison

I joined Tanner McGrath, Head of Growth Engineering and Product Analytics at Amplitude, in San Francisco to hear about the circumstances that brought about the need for Amplitude's product. Tanner also shared his personal story of making moves from video game development to Postmates product manager to the tech renaissance man he is today at Amplitude.       TRANSCRIPT: [0:00:17] PJ Bruno: Hello, again. Welcome back to Braze for impact, your Martech industry discussed digest. Thrilled to have with me today for a partner spotlight, Tanner McGrath from Amplitude, their head of growth engineering and product analytics. How's it going, Tanner?   [0:00:31] Tanner McGrath: It's great. Happy to be here.   [0:00:33] PJ Bruno: Yeah man, I'm looking at your Linkedin here, and you're a real Renaissance man. Product Manager, Developer, Data Engineer, Data Scientist, Growth Marketing, UX Designer. I mean, do you have any other hobbies that we need to know about right now upfront?   [0:00:50] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, been lucky enough to be involved in a lot of different aspects of making a company grow.   [0:00:58] PJ Bruno: I love it. I guess it touches every part of the company, too. Well, before we get into your journey that led you here to Amplitude, I love the tagline, and I heard this first. We were doing interviews, and I think it was someone on the partnerships team for Amplitude that said, “Helping companies build better products.” It just is such a clean description, but for people out there who might not know more specifically what Amplitude is doing, can you break that down for us a bit?   [0:01:26] Tanner McGrath: Yeah. The way we look at building better products here at Amplitude is, really, if you look at how everything's been changing in the industry, is product is now the revenue center for most companies. Building a better product means building a better company. Here at Amplitude, we see people spending 200 plus minutes within these products ever day. It's like the world is being eaten alive by the digital revolution.   [0:01:55] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:01:56] Tanner McGrath: What we see is, building a better product is not only helping those companies be more successful, but it's also helping everyone out there be more successful in their everyday life. That's the mission here at Amplitude.   [0:02:07] PJ Bruno: That makes sense. I mean, that's usually the place that people get most exposure to the brand, right? Is living in the product, so it tethers back to every single department, right?   [0:02:16] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, absolutely.   [0:02:18] PJ Bruno: Cool. Well, let's rewind, let's take a step back, because one thing that interests me and made me want to talk to you more was the fact that you started off as a client of Braze, back in the day when you were at Postmates. What year was this back at Postmates, when you started there?   [0:02:32] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, 2015.   [0:02:34] PJ Bruno: 2015. Seems like eons ago. So what did the Postmates stack look like when you started there? What kind of set up did they have?   [0:02:42] Tanner McGrath: They had the standard start up, setup. Query and off your production data bases, no AB testing. It really was that standard loading CSVs into MailChimp and it was-   [0:02:55] PJ Bruno: That really does date it doesn't it? Talking about it, its only four years, but Jesus. So no analytics outside of your product database at all?   [0:03:04] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, there was nothing trustworthy in the organization. I really remember coming in, we were having a really, really big delivery volume day, and the whole team was trying to see if we were going to break our previous record, and that meant query in the production data base, and we actually caused an outage from querying in the production data base too much monitoring that. Yeah, it really was no analytics outside of that.   [0:03:34] PJ Bruno: Do you guys hold that up as a victory, when you make something crash like that?   [0:03:37] Tanner McGrath: I don't know if we hold it up as a victory, but definitely a learning.   [0:03:41] PJ Bruno: And that's a victory in some token, sure.   [0:03:43] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, yeah. Definitely made us rethink how we were looking at our growth and our analytics, and really lit a fire in that direction.   [0:03:53] PJ Bruno: Totally. And the stuff that you were doing in Postmates, this was kind of not much competition was around you at this time, right?   [0:04:00] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, yeah, this was pre-competition. This was when everything is up and to the right. I work with a lot of startups here as well, and they're often in cases like that, where this pre-competition, things are up and to the right. You don't ask many questions when you're hitting your growth targets every week.   [0:04:16] PJ Bruno: There's no real need for pushing the envelope on innovation or really big bets.   [0:04:22] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, if you're not taking a close look, everything you're doing is what you're attributing to you making the company successful.   [0:04:30] PJ Bruno: What were the factors that brought Amplitude and Braze into the marketing strategy for Postmates?   [0:04:36] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, it really came down to competition. As the environment becomes more competitive, you're really looking to find an edge and to keep that edge.   [0:04:47] PJ Bruno: So this was 2016, 2017?   [0:04:48] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, yeah, we start to see Uber Eats, DoorDash, other people entering the market, and the space is blowing up. With that, growth becomes a little bit harder when you're not the only one there really creating your category, you really need to know what's working. It's like when you're at a casino, and you're the only one playing a slot machine that's weighted in your favor. And then, all of a sudden the casino starts to be filling up because everyone's winning, but the house is only going to let so much out. You need to become a better gambler. That's what really brought Braze and analytics into the strategy, was we needed to start making more systematic bets as a company, to really keep that competitive edge.   [0:05:35] PJ Bruno: Yeah, that makes sense. It's gotta be tough though, too, because there's just so many different product services and directions you can go, whereas you're given a budget, you need to keep those numbers going up and to the right, how do you choose the right products even? You said systematic bets, I love that. Can you say more about that?   [0:05:54] Tanner McGrath: Yeah. When we think about ... Especially when I think about building better products, it's not just the product you need to improve, it's the team you need to improve. That fundamentally comes down to understanding and learning. You're really only able to do that with certain products. There's many products out there in the landscape that will let you understand what happened. "Was this email, what was its open rate? What was its conversion? Did it actually accomplish that end goal?" But, usually the end of that questioning is, "Why? Why did it have the highest open rate?" Or, "Why did it have the highest conversion?" Or, "Why didn't it?" Being able to answer that "Why" question is not only how you improve your product, but it's also how you improve your team, because your team had a hypothesis at the start, and they're trying to understand why was I right, or why was I wrong, and that's how the team gets better. When the team gets better, the product also gets better. That's really what was the driving force between how do we actually balance getting things done as quickly and efficiently possible, but also making sure that we learn and get better while we're doing that, so that it compounds over time.   [0:07:08] PJ Bruno: So, getting Amplitude and Braze in the mix of your stack, did that inform the makeup of your team? You're saying it takes the right team, so did that service things for you guys?   [0:07:19] Tanner McGrath: That was one of the biggest driving factor for us building our stack, was being able to answer that why. If we can't, as a team, understand why we were actually living or losing, we couldn't get better over time. That was something where we actually tried many different software vendors out there, probably, almost that whole MarTech landscape we gave a try.   [0:07:43] PJ Bruno: It's kind of nice to do a sampling, right? A little tasting.   [0:07:45] Tanner McGrath: Yeah. What we found was that no one really let us offer that why. Then we came across Amplitude, and that really enabled what we called frictionless curiosity at the company, was really being able to be curious about what your customers are doing in your product, and why they're doing that. And then Braze built out currents for us, and that really unlocked a whole new world of being able to answer the why that was not possible in any other tool that we had ever used before.   [0:08:17] PJ Bruno: And the competitors, you adding those two pieces to your stack, that was spurred on by competition. As you guys moved forward, people were copying your approach along the way, right? That was kind of ...   [0:08:28] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, and that's the biggest piece of flattery out there, is when you come up with something creative, and then someone else replicates that, it just adds to that pressure to constantly innovate. That's why we're actually seeing better and better products.   [0:08:44] PJ Bruno: Yeah, these stacks got to be turning into Megazords at this point, just huge transformers.   [0:08:49] Tanner McGrath: Yeah.   [0:08:53] PJ Bruno: Autobots. Talk to me about the transition from client to tech partner, because now your role here at Amplitude is quite different than it was at Postmates.   [0:09:03] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, it's very different and very, very similar in the same way. I spend about 50% of my time, really, thinking about what is the future of product analytics and how can we help companies really set a strategy, set goals, really understand customer health, and really model out their business. It's a lot of things I've been doing in the past, but with a lot of different companies now, which is great. It's almost like what I was doing before, but at scale. There is a slight change, of course, from going from consumer marketplace growth to B2B growth. Definitely a set of nuanced complexities, building out an enterprise B2B Growth Engineering team right here at Amplitude. But, it's great. It's been an awesome transition.   [0:09:54] PJ Bruno: That's great to hear. Let's move onto Amplitude. Amplitude has surfaced, and it's the noise as a best in class product analytics tool. From your experience, what gives Amplitude that competitive edge? What's the differentiator.   [0:10:10] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, the differentiator is, it really goes back to what I was talking about before, is frictionless curiosity, as that the best teams are curious. It's really, really painful to be curious today. Think about what it takes to be curious about your customers, we're talking hundreds, thousands of lines of sequel, ETL jobs, and you've gotta wait a couple days for that compute job to come back, you've got to ask an analyst or a data scientist. It really differentiates by completely flipping that whole paradigm on this head. It's "would you rather hire a product engineer on your team or a data engineer?" With Amplitude, you can invest in your product, and you can enable that team building, that product to really understand what's going on with their customers, so that you actually let your data scientists and analysts use their PhD to actually answer a differentiated question.   [0:11:09] PJ Bruno: That's smart, that makes sense. I was going to ask, what is that a-ha moment for clients and prospects, when it actually hits them, the power of the tool? You mentioned curiosity, so I have to assume that plays into it a little bit.   [0:11:23] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, I think all of that curiosity, what it really results in is people being able to actually better model out, understand their business, and understand customer health. When you talk to a lot of teams today and you ask them, "How do you grow?" You'll get 10 different answers. With Amplitude, what you're able to actually do is, you're enabling the team to see the inputs, measure the outputs, and actually start to understand and model that system over time. That's really the a-ha moment, is when you actually can go into a company and talk about, "Well, how do you grow?" And the teams actually know.   [0:12:05] PJ Bruno: What are some of the best uses of Amplitude that you've seen in your time here?   [0:12:09] Tanner McGrath: Oh, so many. We can go from personalization to even just some of the lowest hanging fruit. I'll call out two things that I always love seeing, one is, especially with user acquisition teams, is when I think about great user acquisition teams, they're doing all the stuff that good user acquisition teams are doing. Good user acquisition teams, they actually optimize ads, change images, change copy, all of the things that are table stakes, they're doing all of that. But, when you meet a great user acquisition team, they actually go a couple steps further. When they have an ad that's not performing or a channel that's not working, they start to answer the question why, "Why is it not working?" If I have a lot of engagement in this ad, I remember this happening at Postmates. We had a lot of engagement on iPhone charger ads. We knew iPhone users, high value users, retained very well. We also saw some of our best customers were purchasing accessories for their iPhones. We'd take some ads out, worst performing ads we've had. The team, good team for user acquisition, they would change the copy, change the images, do a couple cycles of that, and then probably throw it to the side. A great team looks into the product, they understand why is this happening, and turns out, didn't have item search at that time. People actually wanted to purchase these things, they literally just couldn't find it.   [0:13:48] PJ Bruno: Oh, they just didn't have the means.   [0:13:49] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, they couldn't find it in the product. They didn't realize that they needed to search for a Best Buy or an Apple Store, and then go and find the charger. Yeah, what's the team do? They do a quick test, they actually pull together a very proof of concept item search for this specific ad, takes you right to the item, becomes some of the best performing ads. It's like, that's what a great team does, but without that frictionless curiosity, if those people on that UA team actually had to ask a data scientist or an analyst, "Hey, what's going on with my ad?" They probably would have never gotten to the bottom of it. But, with that frictionless curiosity, they're able to actually help transform and build a better product.   [0:14:35] PJ Bruno: So, Amplitude quite literally facilitates teams asking questions.   [0:14:40] Tanner McGrath: Yeah.   [0:14:40] PJ Bruno: Because otherwise, you might not have the means to go inside, and actually dig, and see what's going on.   [0:14:45] Tanner McGrath: Yeah. I'd say that it elevates the level of questions that people are actually asking. One of my favorite Einstein quotes is him saying that if he had an hour to solve a problem, he'd spend the first 55 minutes on actually figuring out the question that he was trying to answer. Last five minutes just answering it. I think that that's really what I mean when I say "frictionless curiosity," is being able to actually ask the right question. The first question you ask is never the right question. I hear people asking me all the time, "How did that experiment perform?" That's not a real question. No one should ever ask that question. "What was your hypothesis and did it actuality accomplish your learning objective?" Usually, that's the 10th, 20th question that someone asks, so without that frictionless curiosity, the right questions never get asked. You see this at scale with companies, and the whole organization is asking better questions, and that compounds over time. Instead of taking 20 questions for you to get there, you're now asking that two questions away from the actual right question.   [0:15:52] PJ Bruno: And I guess you just get better and better as time goes on.   [0:15:54] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, something people often miss is that this concept of learning actually compounds over time, just like interest. The more you invest in it, the more you invest in your team, the better your team's going to be over time. The same with your product, too.   [0:16:13] PJ Bruno: That's good stuff. I gotta remember that. Throw away the first question, because it's no good.   [0:16:18] Tanner McGrath: Just make it smarter.   [0:16:20] PJ Bruno: All right, cool, let's get into some final thoughts here with you. As tech evolves, companies often pivot their main focus based on innovations in the competitive landscape. We've already talked a bit about competition here today. Do you see a new frontier for Amplitude to expand into?   [0:16:37] Tanner McGrath: Yeah. The way I see the space playing out is that today, really smart people leverage Amplitude to get to causal inference, to really understand what's [causaling] their product. I think tomorrow, we'll be able to help do that a lot faster, so that anyone can do it, or maybe it's done for you. On top of that, that really enables, when you understand what's causal, especially for different people, different cohorts, that really enables this emerging space of personalization. I think one of the biggest challenges that's often not talked about, related to personalization, is "How do you do the analytics for personalization?" If everyone gets a different version of your product, how do you actually make sense of that?   [0:17:21] PJ Bruno: Yeah, that's a good one.   [0:17:22] Tanner McGrath: Yeah, I think Amplitude's got a whole new landscape to build out there, and that's really the future.   [0:17:30] PJ Bruno: Yeah, especially because personalization is quickly becoming the norm. If you're not using that, then your message is getting lost in the sweep, right?   [0:17:39] Tanner McGrath: Yeah. Helping people understand how to do that at scale is something that is definitely needed, because there's a lot of teams experimenting with personalization, but very few teams actually understand it.   [0:17:52] PJ Bruno: You guys are set up to provide the right analytics on personalization, on real times, on all this stuff?   [0:17:58] Tanner McGrath: Absolutely.   [0:17:59] PJ Bruno: Al light, well, I'm excited to see what's next for you guys. Tanner, thanks for joining me today, buddy.   [0:18:04] Tanner McGrath: All right, thank you. [0:18:12]

In this episode of Scaling Postgres, we review articles covering watching Star Wars, fast text search, column defaults and importing large CSVs. Subscribe at https://www.scalingpostgres.com to get notified of new episodes. Links for this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf--bckgEFo https://pgdash.io/blog/postgres-psql-tips-tricks.html?h https://austingwalters.com/fast-full-text-search-in-postgresql/ https://brandur.org/postgres-default https://trineo.com/blog/2018/08/using-copy-in-postgres-for-importing-large-csvs https://www.scalingpostgres.com/tutorials/fast-postgresql-data-loading-using-ruby/ https://www.citusdata.com/blog/2018/08/29/datatypes-you-should-consider-using/ https://thebuild.com/blog/2018/08/28/dont-lock-tables-just-dont/ https://blog.2ndquadrant.com/video-data-integration-postgresql/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clrtT_4WBAw https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com/en/what-hot_standby_feedback-in-postgresql-really-does/ https://www.percona.com/blog/2018/08/29/tune-linux-kernel-parameters-for-postgresql-optimization/ https://blog.okmeter.io/real-world-ssd-wearout-a3396a35c663 https://postgresql.verite.pro/blog/2018/08/27/glibc-upgrade.html