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Welcome to Season 8 of Step by Step. This season we're partnering with fabric to discuss how brands can stand out from the crowd by investing in an experiential design. Tune in every day this week to hear from experts on how to unlock your eCommerce growth. Listen now!Is experience worth investing in?Ryan Bartley is the Founder of Fabric, a leading modular and headless enterprise commerce platform helping brands and retailers innovate and scale.Experience is not only your digital experiences and touchpoints within stores but also the brand touchpoints and the service level you give your customers.“What we're hearing from all of the companies that we work with is really a concern about just what the next handful of months and what the next year looks like.” -RyanStart targeting your software and figuring out how to serve your customers in the best possible wayIs now the time to rip and replace legacy tech or is it time to optimize it? It can be difficult to replace, so you should be working on ways to optimize your tech stack, but also looking for ways to optimize your content stack.“We at fabric personally don't believe in the word customization, but rather in configuration. It's your platform, not ours.” -Ryan“It's intuitive that you should improve your experience and service level because you look at the competitor set in your groups and they're doing it, they're not messing around.” -RyanAssociated Links:Want to learn more about how to take your brand to the next leve? Download our free Step by Step guide!Get connected with fabric!Learn more about Ryan BartleyListen to our other Step by Step seasonsFind our other Future Commerce episodes on our websiteHave any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on Futurecommerce.fm, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

The Evolution of Revenue Operations & the Automation of Sales with QuotaPath's Ryan Milligan Welcome to Sales Tech Podcast, the show that talks about sales technology, what's working, what's not, and where the industry is going. In this episode, Thom sits down with Director of Revenue Operations at QuotaPath, Ryan Milligan. In his role, Ryan works to help and support sales teams with their sales tech processes so that they can do their jobs better and hit quota. Ryan is passionate about connecting systems together, building scalable processes, and geeking out on sales technology. Today, Thom and Ryan engage in a rich discussion about the evolution of Revenue Operations, the relationship between Marketing and Sales, and how the future of sales will require a balance between automation and personability. What We Covered: 00:36 – Thom introduces today's guest, Ryan Milligan, Director of Revenue Operations at QuotaPath who discusses his buying process and the evolution of Revenue Operations 08:51 – How to get sales professionals to utilize their sales tech stack 12:27 – How Revenue Operations can be a bridge for sales professionals 14:17 – The biggest challenges Ryan faces in the Revenue Operations space 15:28 – How to measure success once you've implemented a new sales technology 17:38 – Ryan speculates on the future of sales tech 20:06 – Will traditional sales professionals become automated out of their roles? 22:26 – The personal aspect of sales 24:05 – One message Ryan would relay to every sales professional 25:47 – Thom thanks Ryan for joining the show and let's listeners know where to connect with him. Tweetable Quotes: “I think people are realizing that Marketing and Sales need to be super tightly connected. I think, historically in this world, there was this invisible fence where Marketing gets leads and throws them over the fence for Sales to run with. And I think people are realizing that decision cycles are much more complicated, the buyers are much smarter and everything is getting much more crowded.” (04:02) (Ryan) “I, very intentionally, want to be incredibly and closely aligned to a sales team. It is sales tech. You're doing systems to help a team.” (11:29) (Ryan) “I think you're going to continue to see a massive amount of automation in these sales processes, but I think you're also gonna see a lot of people wanting to make sure, as customers, that the automation is still feeling very personalized and finding new paths to talk to customers.” (19:07) (Ryan) “It's a shame that you can't be in-person as much for sure. But it does give you access to people all over the globe.” (23:26) (Ryan) Links Mentioned: Ryan Milligan on LinkedIn QuotaPath  ryan.milligan@quotapath.com   

Traffic sources can come from a number of places, but for most companies the largest source is Google. And things can get confusing when it comes to organic traffic versus paid ads.There are a number of things that can affect organic traffic and paid traffic in Google, and it can get confusing quickly. Today Ryan clears things up and tells you what does and doesn't work in Google, and focuses on what you can do with on-site SEO to improve your organic rankings. The site mentioned for checking your organic rankings: www.semrush.com TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine with Jon McDonald and Ryan Garrow. Jon: Hey Ryan. So traffic to a website comes from many different channels and avenues, as we all know. And for most companies though, that largest source is always Google, the infamous Google traffic source. Now, from previous conversations with you, I know that Google shopping, spend and traffic can have a really positive impact on organic traffic in Google. Which always has blown my mind when I've heard that, because I heard from you recently too, that there are several types of search engine optimization that can have an impact on paid search. Not just on on-page. So this really confused me, because I thought Google kept everything separate. You can't spend money to grow rankings within Google. You can buy your spot with an ad, maybe do some stuff around shopping to get surface there. But I wasn't aware that those two really correlated with organic. So I'm looking forward to hearing about how search engine optimization can help your paid search. And I guess more simply, what are you talking about? Can you fill me in on this? Ryan: Yeah. So I don't want to confuse people kind of with the title or how we're putting this out there, but you can't spend money on paid search to have Google increase your rankings. That's been a myth disproved multiple times over, and Google has been very, I think, above board in how that works. But we do know that spending more on shopping, where people discover your product more, they will come back and buy through organic and direct, and those channels will start producing more revenue. But what people I think overlook are the fact that there are two types of SEO that people need to be aware of. And you should always as a business owner be investing or planning to invest in both SEO and paid search. I don't think one is greater than the other necessarily long-term, but you need to have both. And the type of SEO that people talk about or think about when they say SEO is what we've been doing generally for 20 years, building our rankings in authority with back links that are of high quality, putting content out on the internet that Google recognizes as valuable and they will give you more authority. You spend now on SEO with that's either your time or money, hiring people to do that. And then four to six months you see the results in increased traffic. That's generally what people think about with SEO. What they tend to overlook is the SEO that gets results actually within two weeks of you doing it. And that's the on-site SEO work. And so there's things you can do on your site to improve it that when Google re-indexes that you will move up in rankings. And this type of SEO will help organic traffic, but also have an oversized impact on paid search. And so because it dabbles both of those buckets I like to focus on that SEO before I even go to the SEO that people normally think about. And so on-site SEO at its simplest form is improving your category pages for Google. Jon: Okay. So you're talking content, better imagery, things of that sort? Ryan: Yeah. The content, the tags, the titles, things on that site that Google indexes and sees have a lot of benefits around your website and traffic generally. And so, if you do a search for your product, and so if you sell Nike shoes and that's the broad search that has lots of traffic, you will notice on Google most of the organic results are for categories of Nike shoes. It's not one specific Nike shoe like a shopping ad would be. Because Google, based on that search, knows that you don't know which specific model you're looking for or if you're looking for men's or women's. You're looking for Nike shoes. And so often the high volume terms are going to be category pages that Google is going to be indexing and sending traffic to until people get more and more specific with their searches. And that's how people generally move down a funnel, is I gradually do my research... Forgot, okay. Now I know I need to be searching for men's Nike shoes. Then I see that page. I'm like, "Oh, I need to be searching for men's Jordan Nike shoes." And then I'm like, "I really want to search for Jordan 4 men's shoes." And then that's when I'm getting to more and more specific and even adding color onto that, and people will do that through a search funnel. But the biggest advantage is saying, "All right, I have this category page and I need to have a description on that page about what's on that page that Google can see." And it doesn't necessarily matter for searchers because if I'm searching for Nike shoes and I'm on a page of Nike shoes, I can see they're Nike, I can see they're shoes. I don't need to read that text to see it. And so putting that on there though will have an outsized impact on quick increase in rankings. And so I like to start this by telling people to go to SEMrush, or some site like that to be able to see what is Google doing with your organic site, how are you average ranking on there? There's some wonderful reports on SEMrush. It's the one I use because it's probably simple enough that we to dive into very, very quick. I don't get super deep on a lot of my analysis. I get high-level and figure out some strategy and then move off of that. But SEMrush has some great things they've done from an organic perspective. They scraped these results pages, and they know generally where you're ranking. Obviously you rank in different parts of the country differently, and search intent and my previous search history is going to impact my organic results. But generally we know that hey, you're ranking here on this keyword. And SEMrush also brings in the average volume of searches a month. And so to start to see where your site could have a quick impact on this, you go to SEMrush, click on your organic rankings, sort it by volume. And you'll start seeing where your site is ranking. So if you're ranking on number 70 for a term with 10,000 searches, you're still getting zero traffic because you're stuck somewhere on page seven. But it'll also show you which page is ranking there. And when you see that you're like, "Oh, this page is ranking for that. And I'm seeing the term 'Nike shoes' goes to my Nike shoe page. That's great." You can click it actually in SEMrush and pull it up. Very simple. And you can see there's nothing on that page other than my title that says, "Nike shoes," in text that the search engine can scrape and understand. And so you take those category pages and you write that paragraph of text. You maybe make sure that your title is short and appropriate for that search. You make sure the H tags on the site are appropriate for that, and it's not including random other characters or doesn't have your brand first. It doesn't have sizes first maybe, if you're looking at shoes. That information on your site will raise the ranking within two weeks. And it really depends on your competitors on what they've done or what they're doing. But within two weeks, you can assume that you're going to have more value to Google. They're going to raise you up there. And that's by no means a bad thing when you're getting quick results on SEO. Jon: Yeah. So if you're looking at all of this and I'm hearing from you that okay, do onsite for sure. But how does this affect paid search? I understand that you can't buy your listings. You can buy optimization of these pages, which is search engine optimization, and that could help you. But how is this going to affect your paid search? To me, it doesn't feel like it would. So that's what was kind of shocking. So yeah. Tell me more about that. Ryan: For Google ads, if you're running text ads there's something that Google has called the Google quality score. That basically gives you three components. It says if you do well here, we're going to let you pay less than your competitors for the same search. So there's always a value having a higher quality score. It's one to 10 and there's three components. There's the expected click through rate. That's always relative to your competitors. And so somebody may come to me and think, "Well, I have a 7% click through rate. That's great. Right?" And I'm like, "No. There's no way of knowing that." It's based on your competitors and what are they getting. If Google knows that compared to your competitors you're getting a 7% click through rate on the same search term and they're getting a 10% click through rate, guess who Google wants coming up higher? Jon: Right. Just because it's more relevant to the searcher, and that's what they're understanding. And that's going to drive more money for Google in the end because more people will click on it. Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Okay. Yep. Ryan: Google makes decisions for themselves. They have shareholders, they need to make money, and that's fine. It's their platform. So the higher click-through rate is good. And then the ad relevance, so they're saying, "All right, does your ad have instances of the keyword that was searched in it?" We generally, horrible broad stroke, shoot for about three times in the ad, and the rest of the text in the ad doesn't have an oversized impact on the actual click rate. It's just you have it for Google, you're playing the game to get ranked higher. And then the other piece is the landing page and the quality of that landing page based on the search query. So Google can't see the actual image itself and decide is this image what they searched for. They can see the tags you put on the image, but the actual physical image AI is not actually determining is that actually what they searched for. And so that piece of content you're putting on your category or in Shopify, the collection page is telling Google what's on that page. And if you have that keyword in that content, Google is going to think this is a more relevant page to what they're searching and give you a benefit by lowering your cost per click through the increase of quality score. And it's a very easy thing to tie together and see the changes because quality score is reset every time somebody searches and every time your ad shows. And so if you make a change on the site to that description, today, and you see that I have a quality score of seven and you can break down the quality score components using columns in Google ads. And if you haven't done that before, you can get to all your keywords in the list in Google ads, that you're showing a text ad for, go to columns and ad quality score, and you can see, "All right, what's my click expect to click through rate, what's my ad relevance. And what's my landing page quality?" Jon: Okay. Ryan: And it'll tell you. You can either get below average, average above average. There's only three pieces to it. If you've got a lot of keywords, I like to push it down into an Excel pivot table. So I download it, put pivots on it- Jon: You love your pivot tables. Ryan: I love pivot tables. If you're running Google ads and you don't use pivot tables, you're wasting a lot of time. We still use Excel a lot in Google ads, but that can find really quick your below average landing page quality scores. And you can focus on those first, saying, "Okay, for whatever reason, this landing page, I'm getting dinged." And it's the largest component. It has about six of your 10 points associated with it. So moving from below average to above average can give you a significant boost and you're probably getting zero or very little traffic if you have a below average landing page score, Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: Optimizing your site increases your quality score, which then helps you get more visitors and makes your ads more effective because it's going to be ranked higher in that list. So if you're on the search results page and there's three items, the one that comes first has the higher quality score. It's not just how much you bid, or is it how much you bid and the quality score? What other factors might come in there? Ryan: It's both. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Yeah. Google keeps a little bit of a black box in play. But they say it's the ad rank, which generally we know is the bid and the quality score going into play. And so the highest on the list is not always bidding the most. You could actually pay less per click and being ranked higher, generally. I guess it's not always the case, but generally the higher up you are in rank on that first page of Google, the more you're the more clicks you're going to get. The higher your click-through rate. And you obviously want more of the traffic if you're bidding on the keyword. And so improving the site experience for a Google perspective, and we're not talking about... Unfortunately sometimes for Google is not always best for the user. But you got to get the traffic to be able to determine if it's good for the user. So get the traffic from Google by increasing what Google thinks of the site. And often it's a pretty simple implementation to get this text on there. It's not tremendously complicated. I don't think you need to have a master's degree in onsite SEO to be able to do this. I've done it on a lot of my own sites and it's just having something there is better than nothing. And using general logic is saying, "Okay, I'm writing this for the search engines, not necessarily the user. So I want to make sure I have the right density." It's got to read in normal English because people are still going to see it, even if they're not reading it. But just get it on the site. And most small sites that don't have this are going to be on Shopify, just from a numbers perspective. We know they have over a million people using it. And so on Shopify this is the Collections page. And when you're putting that description in on your collections, in fact, I was just talking to a company that I'm helping advise in this area, and the business owner had all the descriptions already put on there, but they weren't showing on their Shopify site. Well that's interesting. And so we've dug into it and it's the theme. The Shopify theme she's using doesn't pull those descriptions in by default. And so some themes do it and some don't. So if you put it in there and your theme doesn't have that when you go to the collection page, you need to get a developer to force that theme to show it. And if you have a choice, put it below the product results on that category or collection page. If you don't have a choice, just get it on there. It's going to be fine. I haven't seen a meaningful increase or decrease yet on putting that continent in there on conversion rate. Jon: I was going to say, is there a... Thinking about my conversion rate hat, of course, as always, is there a better consumer experience when you think about that? Is having that content higher on the page, lower on the page near the products, things of that sort. Does that seem to matter? Ryan: I haven't seen it, but obviously I haven't done as much broad research on that. That's probably something in your bucket of skillset to look at that. And all right, on these Shopify sites where it defaults to above the fold or above the product results, do we see a change one way or the other when we move it below? My gut tells me I want to see the products first and most of the time when I go to a site, I'm not reading a bunch of texts when I'm searching for a product. I want to go right to the products and see which product makes sense based on the images I'm seeing and the titles of those products. But there probably needs to be some testing for most sites around that. But I would say if you don't have it there above or below, you're probably not getting very much traffic on it from a paid perspective. So you just need to get it, even if it's above the products, because now you don't even have- Jon: Done is better than perfect. Ryan: Yes. That's most of my method of business based on my business partners. We're just going to do it and we're going to make choices as we go, because if we're not moving forward, we're not going to make any decisions at all. Jon: And this is slightly unrelated, but I would say that a lot of our success at The Good has been purely because we just keep making decisions. And we know we're going to make bad ones along the way, but we're doing the best we can. You just keep moving forward, just keep taking those steps. And that, really, I think has been a competitive advantage. Or at least over just business in general, it's really helped us. And I think that's, that's a challenge I see. We talk a lot about all of these different optimizations you can do, and just getting it done, taking that step is 99% better than a lot of your competition. Ryan: For sure. Jon: A lot of them just aren't even taking the steps that we're talking about. So even if you don't take all of them, just take one. Like go to SEMrush today and look at these organic results and have a list of these opportunities and then fix them. And you're going to be 99% ahead, being armed with that data and having a good understanding of what to do next. And even if you're not running ads, because then when do run ads, you'll be well ahead of the game. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. I think it's always better to take two steps forward and one step back than it is to try to plan the best step perfectly the first time out. I know I'm going to make mistakes in business. That's fine. I don't care. As long as it's not a crippling business killing decision, I'm willing to make all of those. Jon: Which 99 out of a hundred couldn't be. They're small enough decisions that you just got to do it. And if you go to SEMrush and you follow their instructions or the recommendations, is there a chance that that kills your business? Unlikely. It's very unlikely. So what do you have to lose? You just got to put the time in and do it. Ryan: Exactly. And that's for most business owners, it's going to come down to a time-money thing. If you've got more time than money, which smaller businesses generally do, you're going to do some of this work yourself and figured out the hard way. If you've got a little more money than that, you're going to hire an agency to go do some of that work for you. And that's what I advise a lot of businesses to start. I was like, "Look, if you've not done this before, and you're really worried about making a bad mistake, hire an agency to do very small amounts." So you can see the model that they're using. And I even tell them, Logical Position for a thousand bucks, we will put six category pages together for you and do the work from the titles, descriptions, all that stuff. And you can then see, "Oh, that's actually not that complicated I see it where you put it in there, I see how it got on there. I see the keywords you used. Great. I can go build out the next 15 of these to help those all increase and then by that time, I might have enough money to pay for more paid search because I'm seeing organic traffic increase." Jon: This is why I tell people all the time when I send them to Logical Position, it pays to work with a partner that is large enough that they have an SEO focused team and a paid team because these things work together so well. And they need to be talking to each other. You can't just go off and do these SEO things and then not have your paid team aware of it. Because as we found out today, that's going to affect your quality score. And so not only could you get some increase in organic rankings pretty quickly by doing some basic SEO stuff, if you're not doing that, but then you can also do some off-site stuff that builds for a longer term. You were saying about four to six months, roughly. And then on top of that, you can be affecting your quality score. So what I've learned today is, okay, you still can't pay Google to list higher organically. Okay, that's a bummer, but I get it. I assumed that was the case. And so second, what I've learned is I need to get a better quality score if I'm ever going to run ads, because you need to make sure that quality score is high because I'm not going to pay a thousand bucks a click. But if I have a better quality score, I might pay a little less than that. Ryan: Some of your settings, you may get close. Jon: Let's just bury that one and keep it buried. Jon likes to waste money with his spend. But that's what I get for not talking to my friends before doing that. So look, I think there's a lot of great things here around things that every business of any size could be doing to really get more out of their paid media spend. Ryan: And just business in general, best practices, laying a solid foundation to build on for a brand. I think it's an easily overlooked one for a lot of brands that can have house sized impact for that time. I mean, writing a description might take you five minutes if you're the business owner and that five minutes could produce massive dividends on both SEO and paid search. Jon: On that, we'll leave it. It sounds like folks have some tasks to do that are pretty simple. Just need to put the time in to make it happen. Or if they don't have the time to give you a call and have your team at Logical Position make it happen for them. Ryan: Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. Let me know how I can help. Jon: All right, thank you there, Ryan. Appreciate it. Ryan: Thanks John. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

Larger companies get most of the press and excitement with their 6 and 7 figure marketing budgets, but the majority of clients we work with are smaller. And smaller companies have to do things a little differently than the big guys. What impact does a small budget have on driving traffic? How should small budget brands compete online? https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey Ryan. So we get companies contacting us all the time, that don't have large, six or seven figure marketing budgets, and many times, those large clients get most of the press and excitement, but the majority of companies that end up investing in marketing are going to be smaller, and smaller companies have to do things a little bit differently. I want to ask you today, what impact does a small budget have on driving traffic and how do those small budget brands compete online? They obviously want to compete, they have to compete in order to grow, and I want to know what's the magic, how do they make that happen? I'm excited to talk to you about this today, and I guess I'll start pretty broad, in e-commerce, is there such a thing as too small of a budget? Ryan: Across the board as a broad general rule, no, but if you're really going to do something with your budget, then yes. I mean, you have to have enough budget to start moving things around and collecting data. And I think that initial starting budget, if you're a smaller business, is going to be important to determine how quick you can grow, how aggressive you can be, where are you going to find that opportunity to take the next step in the digital marketing evolution of your business? And I challenged a lot of business owners in this space, as I'm talking to smaller ones all the time. Like for example, yes, you can start with $100 a month budget, it's your money, and you can market it however you want, invest it however you want. But if you're e-commerce, you're e-commerce so that you can sell everywhere and have your online store open all the time, even when you're sleeping. And so if that's the case, $100 is not going to get you very far in marketing across the internet. And so if you're going to do something that small, you really need to be hyper, hyper, hyper-focused, which does limit your potential and opportunities to find little pockets where you can really dominate or win. And so I would generally say less than $1,000, there may be better places for your money than trying to drive traffic with it online. Jon: Interesting. I was going to ask, and maybe you've just answered, but I'd love your take on this too, if I only have $1,000 a month to spend, is it worth doing it or am I just throwing my money away, when we're talking about driving traffic through traditional paid media sense? Ryan: That's a difficult one because most business owners that are coming up with this $1,000 and you're smaller, that's a meaningful number to them probably, but they probably don't have the expertise to really make that $1,000 do as much as it can. And so you probably have to bring an expert in, and that costs money as well, because most people in the digital marketing world are not working for free. And so you have to figure in an expert generally, and I'll probably come back to that point, but for most businesses, I would say that you have to look at it through a lens of time and money. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Anybody can learn how to do digital marketing. You have to be able to study, you have to be able to go in and make some mistakes and learn it, but anybody can figure it out. It's definitely not the most complex thing you could be learning. But if you have more time, then you should be doing some of that work yourself and learning it and getting it to it like, "Can I get some basic things done?" If you have more money, than you need to hire people and your budget should probably be a little bit higher to be able to invest and push traffic. Jon: So we should be saying, when we say budget for today's conversation, should I be thinking about it as budget including the expert or budget just in what you would spend to drive traffic in these channels? Ryan: I think businesses should be looking at it together, but I think most business owners are thinking about, "Okay, I can spend $1,000 to drive traffic. Let's go put that on Google and make it work." I do believe though, the Googles in particular and I'll focus on Google for right now, but Google in particular has done some pretty cool things helping small e-commerce businesses get going. If you've got a feed and you're on a smaller platform, like if you're on Shopify, it's very, very simple to get up and running on Shopify and get your products going to Google. And then there's what Google is calling smart shopping campaigns that allow a business really to say, "Google, here's how much I'm willing to spend per day, and here's the goal I need to get out of it." It does not take an expert to get that up and running. And in fact, I tell companies, do not pay an agency to manage smart shopping campaigns because there's nothing to do. It can be a small piece of an overall structure, in fact, we at Logical Position do use smart campaigns in a small piece of a campaign occasionally, but we have to do a lot more work in the reporting and strategy on that type of client, to be able to justify charging management fees on smart campaigns. Jon: Okay. That makes sense. Ryan: Small budgets use more automation, I think, is the name of the game. Use things that are set up to make sure you don't just waste a bunch of money, and I think that's where a lot of small businesses, what keeps them from starting often is that fear of, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to go waste money trying to drive traffic because I don't know how to do it right." Doing some research, I think, can help keep that option to a minimum, that is just going to go out there and be a big waste. Jon: Let's say a company hasn't driven traffic on Google. How do they decide what that starting budget should be? Ryan: This generally comes down to, what's the business doing as a whole? If you're doing $100,000 a month on your website and you haven't been spending money, you probably have a larger amount you could start with then if I'm only doing $1,000 a month in sales. It's a threshold there of starting to look at it, but I generally say, in e-commerce, at least $1,000 to start with on Google. And then start thinking about it through a lens of, "I know I'm not going to be starting out at the gate if I'm doing it myself in a perfect world scenario." So there's going to be some learnings. I look at it through the lens of what's my light money on fire threshold, to let me get things going, and I've done this with new platforms on some of my brands. Nobody knew what they were doing yet, across the entire platform. Pinterest is being one of them. A couple years ago, it was just wide open. Nobody knew what it was going to do. I think they're getting some more structure in place and it's driving better traffic, but I went onto it saying, "Look, I don't know what it's going to do." My light money threshold at that point was, I think about 2,500 bucks, so I talked to Pinterest like, "Look, we can go a thousand a day for two and a half days if you want, or we can go $100 a day for about a month. I'm okay with either, whichever one you think is going to work better for me." And that was my light money on fire threshold, that I wasn't going to be mad, I was just like, "Yeah, that did suck, but I got some learnings." Pinterest didn't work for us at that point in time on that business, we'll continue to be revisiting it. But all that to come back around to it can't be a budget that if it doesn't work, it's going to tank your business, because there's a lot of unknowns if you haven't been on Google before, to how is your website going to convert, what traffic is going to work best for you. Because you'll take the same product with the same price for the same search query, going to two different sites and it's going to convert and there's going to be a different return on ad spend. And so with all of that unknown, anybody that tells you they know exactly what you're going to get by putting $1,000 out there, they're lying to you because there's no data to tell you one way or another. There's no way to know. Jon: Okay. So don't bet the farm. Ryan: Don't bet the farm, but it should probably make you a little uncomfortable. Jon: Okay. Ryan: When I'm looking at business decisions and I want to grow, and you know me, I tend to be on the aggressive side of things, I want what I'm risking to make me a little uncomfortable. I don't want it to be an easy decision or an easy thing to be like, "Okay." Could I have wasted $100 to test Pinterest? Yeah, but that was not an uncomfortable thing. 2,500 from me was a little bit uncomfortable. Partners and I talked through it and we're like, "Okay, if it returns nothing, that's not going to be great. But again, we're not going to lose the business because of a mistake if it doesn't work." So a little bit of uncomfort, I think, is good. Jon: Okay. So then let's say I have a thousand bucks, where do I start, Facebook, Google, something else? Ryan: I think generally it's going to come down to those two for most businesses to start off with. I think other platforms generally are younger and they are less proven and therefore generally higher up in the funnel. Like if you're going to jump right on TikTok or Snapchat for marketing and you haven't done Google or Facebook, I think it's going to be difficult to know if that platform is actually working for you, if you haven't gone to more advanced ones yet. And so when I talk to a business owner or a marketing team that's looking at deciding between both of those two to start, the easy way of looking at it as if there is existing market for your product, I generally say go to Google because you're going to capture people towards the bottom of the funnel as they're looking for your product. If you're creating a brand new category, there's not a lot of people searching for it on Google and so you're going to have to figure out how to create that and find the right audiences on Facebook and convince people to start trying you to build that search volume. So for example, last week I talked to a guy, his company makes edible bubbles and I'm like, "I have never heard of this before.'. Jon: Isn't that bubblegum? Ryan: Yeah. This is for kids going out and playing and blowing bubbles, he makes edible bubbles. And I had no idea my kids would want that until he sent me some samples and they're actually pretty cool. Jon: That's awesome. Ryan: But they actually make them for bars. Someday when we get to go back to a bar, they make these bubbles you can blow on top of a drink, and a lot of times they infuse them with smoke for presentations. Jon: That's cool. That's a great idea. Ryan: So really cool stuff, but there's not a target market yet that they know to search for that. So I, before last week, never would have even considered searching for the term edible bubble or edible bubble for a drink or bar drink presentation bubbles, that's just not even there. And so for that type of business, you've got to go on Facebook, you've got to target bartenders, you've got to target moms with kids, with the kid bubble one. And there's some really cool targeting on Facebook, and if you've got a good visual and some good offers, I think Facebook can work really well. For other businesses, Facebook generally will hit top of funnel like that, and so the return, again, generalizations, is going to be a little bit lower than if you had run some bottom funnel, Google stuff to figure out where people are searching for your product and what are your advantages and all of that. Jon: So we're talking the difference between perhaps intent versus awareness? Ryan: Yes. Like if there's already people searching with intent for your products or services, I would go capture them first. It's going to be a little more expensive per click, possibly, there's generally going to be more competition, but it's an existing demand that you're tapping into. You've just got to figure out how you're going to compete there. If you're creating a brand new product that nobody's ever searched before, you probably can't even spend your money on Google on search terms, you're going to be on broad match keywords on Google wasting money. Jon: Right. No, that definitely makes sense, then Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. Ryan Garrow, of Logical Position, the digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services, to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: What other things tactics do the smaller budgets need to be aware of? What else would you consider? Ryan: Some of the tactics I talked about when looking at smaller budgets on advertising and driving traffic, don't even have to do with the tactics to drive the traffic. A lot of small businesses, even over the last year with COVID and a lot of brick and mortar moving into online, a lot of them haven't thought about what is my advantage online? If you are selling the exact same product at the exact same price, and you have no discernible advantage over a competitor, what are you doing? Try to figure out, before you go spend money, why somebody is going to buy from you. And you can't really tell me that your advantage online is going to be because you have really smart salespeople inside, or you have a lot of knowledge in your industry, because that's not going to come across in Google shopping. Nobody cares how much you know, they don't know how much people know when they're just going to a website and transacting. And so you've got to figure out what that advantage looks like first. Why should somebody buy from you versus a competitor, if they've never met either one of you and all they're doing is seeing your website because the internet is the great equalizer and small companies can't compete with big companies, if they're better at certain things. Better at converting, if all of your competitors are stuck on really ancient Yahoo stores that are 20 years old, and you're going to come in there with a Shopify or a big commerce site, that's really easy to convert on. That can be a significant advantage, even if everything else is the same. Jon: It's funny, you say that, a friend and I were just talking about that and we were laughing, saying a great business model would be to just go to find a index of all the remaining Yahoo stores making over a million dollars a year and just replicate that on a better platform, with better usability and you would print money. Ryan: Why are we doing a podcast? Let's go get a list and start making business. But it's true. I think we still have 50 clients on Yahoo and some of them are, I think, are on the RTML, that really old coding platform, that if you're not 50, you've never even heard of that. And I only heard about it because we have clients on it. Jon: Yeah. Look, I mean, I think a lot of these stores take the approach of, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And they're still printing money, so why change it? I think they're going to ride that till the end. So somebody will come along and end them by doing something better, but you got to find it first. Talking about that is one of the things that the platform could be, one thing that these smaller companies are doing wrong. But thinking about smaller budgets, if they're sending traffic to their site, what do most of these smaller budgets do wrong? What mistakes are they making with their small budgets? Ryan: I think a lot of them, if they do have some advantages and they do have a reason to market, a lot of them make the mistake of not being aggressive enough. I think I've mentioned this probably multiple times, but a lot of small business owners really watch their P and L and all line items going in and out of the business, which is good. But when they come to Google ads, it can quickly become a very large line item and they want to focus on, hey, I need to increase profits, so we need to start cutting this budget and controlling Google, because if I control something in the middle of my P and L, the bottom gets bigger. And unfortunately, something like a Google ads or Facebook ad, is generally driving top line number that does translate into bottom line number, but if you eliminate what's driving that top line, it can really have an opposite effect of what you're intending. And so it's really a paradigm shift. If you're looking at your budget like a line item, you start looking at it as you're investing in getting new customers and then what are you going to do with it? Don't see Google ads or Facebook ads as a cost necessarily, unless you're purposely losing money and you have to control that piece, but that's a whole different story and most small businesses are not doing that, so I won't dive into that necessarily now. But then trying to figure out, okay, once you've got a customer, what are you going to do with them? Because Google and Facebook, they're a marketing channel and you're going to have to give some or all of that initial order margin to the platform to get the customer. And that allows you to compete and capture more market share, but if that margin is going to the platform, it's not going to you, the business owner or marketing teams future budgets. So you've got to do lifetime value, figure out what you're going to be doing to bring them back. So many times small businesses are thinking about, I've got to get customers, I've got to get customers, so I've got a market. Okay, good, you do have to do that, but you can't keep trying to do that without focusing on the customers you do have. What happened to the customers from last month, what are you doing with them? If you're not emailing them, if you don't have a loyalty program, you're essentially wasting all of this effort that you're doing to successfully bring new customers into the brand. And so that's where I see most struggles, because then they'll just be like, "Oh, Google was terrible. It took all my profit and then I had nothing." Jon: Well, we've talked about this several times on the show, of understanding that it's okay on that first sale to break even, and your customer acquisition costs might be high on that first sale, but you have to have a longer term game plan in place. Is it a subscription type product that you're going to use, if you have a consumable, is it something where you're able to continue to market to them afterwards, but you're doing it in a way that is going to continue to drive down the customer acquisition, but up the lifetime value over time? That definitely makes a lot of sense. So, okay, we've heard a lot of disadvantages to being small here today, but there's still a fact that most brands are going to be in that small budget. What are the advantages, what's the positive side, the glass half full here, what's the advantages to being smaller advertisers? Ryan: Yep. There's no secret that having more money can have more advantages in advertising, I mean, that's just basic marketing 101. But what I've seen through a lot of small businesses and having my own that compete against much larger brands, is you inherently have more flexibility. In fact, we were just laughing before we got on and started recording, about politics in larger companies, having all these things that you have to wade through to get things approved, or to do things, where you can't move quickly into new markets, because there's all these layers of approval. Small businesses, hopefully don't have that problem. And it's like, if you see an opportunity, you can just go do it and there's not a lot of people that have to sign off on. It's like, no, I'm going to go capitalize on that change in the market or that area that hasn't been attacked by larger brands. And so that can be a huge advantage, but I still think a lot of small businesses don't think of it that way and look at it, hey, I can afford to make mistakes and learn from them very, very quickly and pivot and adjust. And I can test new products on my site, I can test things on my site as a small business that I don't have to go to a web dev team. I can make quick little changes on my Shopify site to say, "Hey, let's see if this works or not. Let's run it for a week and if it doesn't work, flip it back." So much opportunity to test and so few small businesses actually taking advantage of that. I mean, I can't say the number of times that we've tested small things, even on Joyful Dirt, as we're moving very quickly and say, "Hey, let's test this or test this." That many of them work. I mean, we've got a really smart team that can come up with really cool ideas to test. For example, this month we did a black history month label, so we just, "Hey, let's just do a small run of a few hundred labels and see what happens." And larger brands can't in mid January, decide to do a label run for a specific event and try to get it to work. We're like, "Yeah, let's just see if it works. And so based on the success, we're going to do this multiple times throughout the year for different events and just have custom labels. Jon: That's a great idea. Ryan: Because we can. Jon: I believe this is called the innovator's dilemma. So when you're at a large corporation, you as an individual can come to the table and say, "I want to do custom labels for this month, starting in two weeks." But you have so much red tape to get through that you can actually affect the change that you want to affect. So that's a definite competitive advantage for a small brand, I can completely understand how that would work in their advantage. So that's great. Is there any other advantages that we should be thinking about? Ryan: I think being smaller also forces you to pay attention to details, that larger brands don't have to. We have a lot of large clients that focus on such macro level numbers, 35,000 foot layer of saying, "Hey, what's our data? How much should we spend? What is this?" And there's not the deep dive on, "Okay, how can I squeeze this little bit more out of this product?" It exists on a few large brands, but generally it doesn't matter to them on the small little minutia. And I think smaller brands, really have an opportunity because there is less data to sift through, they can quickly see where markets may be changing or evolving, that larger brands aren't going to catch till later. So you have to be willing to be aggressive and move quick when you see them, but you might see, even on Amazon, this is a massive thing with one of our clients where there's a couple really big players in vital wheat gluten, for example, on Amazon and the volume of sales on baking products on Amazon, is astronomical, I had zero clue until we started working with this company. Jon: Yeah, would not have suggested or thought that. Ryan: No, I'm like, "Vital wheat gluten," that's a very specific product for a very specific niche of people. Jon: Baking in general on Amazon, you would think there's no way. Ryan: It blew me away. But because the volume is so high, everybody selling FBA can only send in, because vital wheat gluten comes in, it's heavy and it comes in five pound bags or two pound bags, so it takes up enough shelf volume that you can't get 50,000 units in there at a time. And because you're usually co-packing, you're getting pallets delivered, and once it's down, you can't all of a sudden like, I'm just going to send 10 units today to take care of the sales. It's massive in and out of stocks all over the place. And so smaller advertisers could leverage that by saying, "All right, if I have my own fulfillment house, I can always keep a seller central product in stock on Amazon. Even if my FBA stock goes out," and you can play a lot of games and figure out what part of the country is or is not working. But that type of flexibility as a small brand, can pay huge dividends just by being aware of some of the struggles of your larger competitors. If your larger competitor has a disgusting amount of aging inventory, they've got problems probably floating the next purchase. Whereas you may not have that problem as a small advertiser, and you can even use drop shipping through one of the partners that could help you. So I think small companies have some significant advantages and I enjoy that part because it is more exciting to grow a smaller brand to take on a larger one. I do it myself, I add to this one. Jon: You'd love to take down the big guy. Ryan: IT do. Jon: Who doesn't? I mean, if you're in business, you're a competitor, just the way it is. Ryan: Oh yeah. And I love competing. And so it's fun as smaller business, but it does take a mentality that you are going to scrap and do everything you can to make it work. And when you come in with that mentality, I think it's very difficult to fail on Google ads or Facebook ads, because you're not accepting that it's not going to work. You see the data, you know people are spending money in your industry and they may not all be making money, but there's consistent effort there. And you just have to get to the point where you can wade through it and make it work because it will. Jon: Well on that note, any parting thoughts on this? I feel like I'm sufficiently equipped if I were a small brand advertising. You're giving me some renewed hope, that's for sure, that my $1,000 per day or per month, excuse me, would actually go someplace. Ryan: Yeah. The only thing I will say is that I do believe quality help will go a long way. You can be a small advertiser as a business owner and spend $1,000 if you learn and you're quick enough at adjusting and pivoting and looking at data, you're going to learn how to do it, but it might take you six, seven, eight months to get the point where you could have started at that point with an expert. And so it's at least worth interviewing a couple of agencies to see what it is they could do to help you if you bring experts on to manage that $1,000 spend. Yes, you're going to have to pay an agency extra cost, but can they get you moving towards your target at a quicker rate? I think often they can, but even if you're going to do it yourself, at least talk to somebody else that really knows what they're doing to see what the advantages could be. Jon: Well, and it could be huge too, if you get a higher return on that ad spend, that margin difference, they pay for themselves. It's like working with a great CPA, they're going to get you a bigger refund than if you did it yourself. So that covers their fees and hopefully more. Ryan: For sure. Jon: All right Ryan, well, thank you for your expertise on this. I know you guys work with thousands. Every time I talk to you, it's another thousand. So I'll just say thousands and thousands of clients at Logical Position, and a lot of those are smaller ones and you guys have learned a lot from that. So thank you for sharing all of the expertise you've learned. Ryan: Oh yeah. Thank you, Jon. I appreciate the time. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert, with Jon McDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

We Introduced ourselves with our goofy question: You have your own late night talk show, who would you want to be your band leader? Tanea: Nyaze - my musical buddy from college Ryan: Hands down, Tim Blais from A Capella Science. He is a musical genius. Lee: real talk, I’d want Ryan Reardon to be my bandleader. Aaron: Jazz Saxaphonist Grace Kelly Define end of course exams: Wikipedia says “The End of Course Test is an academic assessment conducted in many states by the State Board of Education.” I consider AP Exams, SAT Subject area tests to be EOC exams as well. Other Examples? What are the advantages of End-Of-Course Exams for your students? Ryan: It is a way to demonstrate mastery on an assessment common across multiple classrooms, so that student results can be compared Lee: At the AP and IB level, it is an opportunity to demonstrate mastery of the skills and knowledge gained from participating in the course all year long. They can demonstrate that they are potentially ready for university level work. Tanea: They look competitive, and can show they are likely prepared for college. Aaron: Could be a confidence builder… particularly if they have struggled and then demonstrate success. In very competitive schools, they can also build confidence for students that think of themselves as “average” Thinking about our lens of inequity, what are the issues with End-Of-Course Exams for your students? Other concerns? Lee: in a normal year, the pace is such that we end up teaching to a test rather than teaching kids to really love the scientific process. There seems to be a focus more on test taking skills rather than scientific thinking skills. Ryan: EOCs do not take into consideration local factors such as socioeconomic status, access to resources, special education services, etc. Additionally, measurement using an exam precludes performance standards, which are key for a well-rounded science education Tanea: The schedule doesn’t allow the time for students to really enjoy the science, and it becomes more about memorization and getting into a good school. Aaron: In an academic culture dominated by fixed mindset thinking, EOCs can be used to limit a student’s options. Students define themselves as being either good at something or bad at something. If they perceive themselves as bad at science, they won’t take an AP science course. If they do poorly in an AP Science course, they then label themselves bad at science. We would love feedback! DM or Tweet @lifeoftheschool and share your thoughts. Credits: Please subscribe to Life Of The School on your podcast player of choice! Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/LOTS Music by: https://exmagicians.bandcamp.com/ Show Notes at Lifeoftheschool.org You can follow on twitter @lifeoftheschool

Psychology plays an important part in business no matter what business you’re in or how you’re getting sales. The best tactics to convince us to spend money are the ones we’re not aware of. Retail stores have been using music, scents, and merchandising to get us to spend more money for decades if not centuries. Those tactics online now have a name and its Dark Patterns. Jon explain just what Dark Patterns are and why your brand should avoid using them. Read more about Dark Patterns: https://thegood.com/insights/dark-pattern-ecommerce-ux-design/ Transcription: Ryan: Jon, psychology plays an important part in business, no matter what business you're in and how you're getting the sales. Now, the best tactics to convince us to spend money are the ones we're not really aware of. And retail has been doing this probably for hundreds of years, even though I haven't been involved in it, using music's sense merchandising of how they put products on the shelves to get us to spend more money. And all of that research and data is out there for the taking, but I would venture a guess that most of the public is unaware of actually what's happening in those retail environments to commit us to spend money. When it comes to e-Commerce though, and the way our economy is moving to transacting online, I'm finding a lot of these "psychology tactics" are much more in your face, or at least I'm more aware of them. And maybe it's because I'm spending too much time in front of my computer talking to e-Commerce business owners and looking at e-Commerce sites. But I see it all the time, and a lot of times it just bugs me and you have a term for it called dark patterns. And that's a new term to me, but probably not to you because you work in the CRO world, but you recently mentioned it on LinkedIn. And I wanted to learn more about it because it fascinates me, the intricacies of psychology because studying sales my whole life and now having a retail store with my wife, it's just always there. And I think most of them I see online are garbage, some plugins on Shopify sites that maybe should never have been put on in the first place, but I want to learn about dark patterns. And I learned from one of the best in the world, who should be you. Jon: Awesome. Ryan: It sounds evil, but I just want to know more. How do we use our powers for good? Jon: I'm looking forward to it. Ryan: Jon, why don't you just take a moment and give me a high level of what do you mean when you say dark patterns when it comes to e-Commerce and e-Commerce sites? Jon: So when I talk about dark patterns, what I'm talking about is similar to, if you think about hacking and in a way that there's white hat and black hat, right. And black hat hacking is when you're doing something intentionally for a negative outcome, it might be a benefit to somebody like it's going to be benefits to the hacker, but you're hurting somebody in that process or you're creating a problem in that process. Where a white hat hacker is really just trying to help. They're trying to do things for positive. Maybe they're looking for bugs, but they're going to report them to the software maker before they do anything to exploit it. So you think about that. Exploitation is really what comes in here to my head when I think about this more than anything else. So, what we're talking about here today is really when an e-Commerce store makes something difficult because they want to influence the outcome that they're trying to do. So whether that's something through psychology, you talked about in a retail environment, the type of music they play in the background that calms people down, or how they price, where they make things $2 and 99 cents instead of $3, right? You start thinking about all these psychology tricks that come at play well in e-Commerce there's all those psychology tricks. Plus there are ways to actually increase barriers intentionally on a website so that the consumer can't take the action that they're trying to take, instead, you've made it more difficult. Some examples of this really easy one, an email pop-up pops up when you come to the site to sign up for email lists and there's no way to close it. So the only way you can get back to what you were trying to do is to give them your email address, or I like to call this negative intent shaming. So where the button in that pop-up says something like, no, I don't like discounts or I don't like saving money, right? There's all these types of dark patterns. And it can go even more, really sinister and you make it just impossible to unsubscribe without calling, right? So for years, and it may still be this way, but Skype was an amazing case study of this, where they would claim massive retention rates, but their user rate was super low and usage. And the only reason they had retention rates that were so impressive is because the only way to actually cancel and delete your Skype account was to call a phone number in the U.S. So, if you're an international user where Skype was way more prevalent than in the States, you had to call international, talk to somebody in English only, and say, I need to cancel my Skype account. Please delete it from your servers. Why won't you just do that when a click of a button? So this is a good example of a dark pattern where the brand really valued retention, so they made it near impossible, right up, maybe to that legal limit. And one of the things you saw on LinkedIn was I had posted to an article it had run in what's called The Hustle, which is a great entrepreneur email. If you're no signed up for a free email, it comes out every morning, just around entrepreneurship and the tech industry and whatnot. And they were saying that there's new legislation coming in that is all about making these dark patterns illegal. And that most things need to be self-service, and it shouldn't be a challenge. So that's really where I was going with this was not only is this just bad to do and lead to a horrible brand image in the longterm, but it's also going to become illegal fairly soon. And I hope it's sooner than later, I have my doubts that would happen anytime in the near future, but I hope it's sooner than later. Ryan: So could you also bundle in to that broad, I guess I would probably try to broaden dark patterns a little bit and say it also includes what people think is helping from a psychological perspective, but it's actually just stupid. Well, one of my, I guess, favorite, least favorite was the one that I noticed the most is there's a plug-in on a lot of sites that says, Oh, little Jimmy just bought the pink t-shirt and Oh, look over here, Susie just bought this vase. And Oh, people are buying all over on the site and I can go to some sites and I've seen maybe the analytics behind the scenes and maybe some of my audit. And I know for a fact, there's no way that five people just bought something in the 30 seconds I was on their site. Jon: That's exactly it. Fake social proof is a great example of this, right? So it's having a random number of view, people are viewing this product right now, having X number of people who just bought this product from wherever in the world. And consumers always distrust that now, because it's been abused. Right. But it's a dark pattern because what are they trying to do? They're trying to influence your psychology around social proof and having fear of missing out. And you want what everyone else wants and, Oh, well, if so-and-so just bought that product, then it's probably legit and I should buy it too. And we see this more and more, a really good example is well, and we're getting through a lot of good examples. I could go on for days for examples, but another great example is a fake countdown timer, right? They're introducing scarcity, but it's false scarcity. What I mean by that is sign up within the next five minutes and we'll give you something or okay, we've talked about this in other shows, we did a discounting episode, not too long ago. And you were talking about how your wife just leaves products in the cart, abandons the cart, waits 24 hours and knows there's the discount email coming. You know that that clock is no good. Okay. Reminds me of the old TV commercials call within the next five minutes and you get this free bonus. They have no idea when that commercial is going to run, down to the minute, they don't know. And if you think about it, especially when you see these on news stations, right? News stations have somewhat of a cadence for ad timing, but it's never down to the second, to down to the minute. So there's no way you could start a clock and say in five minutes, right? I guarantee you, if you called them in a week, they'd give you that same price. And it's the exact same thing happening here where there's a whole bunch of these dark patterns that are playing on people's psychology or making it really complicated for them to actually take an action they want to do in order to benefit the brand. Ryan: So what we're not talking about though, is actually having your inventory show on the siting. I actually only have three of these left because Amazon, I see doing that. And based on some of my experience in Amazon, on my brands, I feel the trust that at this point they might change, but that's not what I'm talking about as far as scarcity. Jon: No. Ryan: Okay. It's the manipulation of faking scarcity or faking a countdown timer. Jon: Yes, exactly. Now, if you're just always going to say that there's only three of these left, in order to have scarcity when none exists, then that's a dark pattern. But if you're actually trying to help the consumer, get the product they want and know that, Hey, if you don't buy it, now you're going to have to wait for the next batch to come in. And that could be six weeks or whatever. Right. Then I would put that under the white hat, right. You're really trying to help people and you're giving them more information to make a decision. And that's why this is such an interesting topic. How do you prove what's dark and what's not? Right. If you look at a brand, you mentioned, well, I've had experiences with Amazon. I trust that based on my experiences there. But if you just saw that on some random new e-Comm site that you've never been to before, how do you trust that for sure. How do you know for sure that, that's the reality? Ryan: I personally would have trouble with that. Just knowing as much as I do about e-Comm. Jon: Yeah. You've been burned before, right. There was a great Twitter thread, a few weeks back. It was what is one thing about industry that you work in that the general public doesn't know? And this falls under for e-Commerce that I saw somebody posted, well, I run an e-Commerce brand. And we tell people our products are selling out, when they're not. I was like, okay, well, there you go. That's a dark pattern, right? Ryan: Yeah. Happens often. Ryan: Obviously we don't like them. And I would believe they're hurting brands to a degree, but I bet you probably have some data about how does some of these products that you've seen actually do opposite of what this business owner probably intended for it to do, this countdown timer or, Hey, everybody's buying this all over the world. You need to buy now. Jon: Right. Ryan: Do you see it actually hurting the conversion rate? Jon: Well, I will tell you this, first of all, does it work for the initial conversion? Sometimes, perhaps, right? It might, probably not as well as people think, because if you have to get to that level to get people to buy, you probably have other systemic issues that you need to solve. A product issue, a pricing issue, a brand trust issue, right? There's a lot of other things that you should work on solving instead of trying to take the shortcut. So let's say you get that original purchase, right. Then the person comes back to buy again and they notice that, okay, well now I've got another countdown timer, or maybe it happens where like your wife, you wait that timer out every time. And you know, it's not happy now you trust that brand a little less, right? So I would say that on the first purchase, it might work, but for the longer term customer lifetime value growth, and maybe a brand perception angle, no, it's not going to work. I argue that it's going to hurt you more in the longterm. Ryan: Yeah, I guess an argument could be made based on that. But if you only get one sale ever you're selling mattresses, you don't care if they ever come back. Jon: Boom. That's a great example, right? A mattress store, you go to any mattress store. They're always having the best sale ever, always. And you walk into a mattress store, I guarantee you, you're not going to pay the price that's listed there. You can talk them down because they're going to give you a price that is just a random price. And you're going to be able to go in and just say, okay, well, last week it was this other price or, Hey, well, what if I give you a $100 less? And they're probably be like, okay. Yeah, that's true. If the goal is to get that first sale and that's it at all costs, and you're never going to sell to them again. And you just don't care about your brand over the longer term of, with that customer or even your reputation perhaps. Then I would argue sure. Have at it. Still, not ethical or moral in my point of view. But if you don't want to grow a sustainable brand and revenue, then have at it. Ryan: Yeah. And I would argue though, that even if that is unethical, not great, your business won't be around anyway, because people are going to see through it more and more, I think. And then the marketing costs of getting traffic to your site, necessitates at this point, a lifetime value on a customer. Jon: Right. Ryan: If you're not playing the lifetime value game in e-Commerce, I don't think you're going to be hearing from me and Jon in a couple of years. Because you won't be in commerce at the end of the day. You've got to have that. No matter if you're a retailer or if you're a brand that's selling through retailers and on your own site, you have to have a plan for selling to that customer multiple times in the future. Jon: Right, right. Ryan: Building trust, obviously we focus on that on both of our ends of marketing constantly and dark patterns can interrupt that even if it's short-term creates commercial rate increase, but are there some areas in this that you say are valuable on both of those counts? Like increases conversion rates and while some people might think this is maybe in that space, it actually does good as far as building the lifetime value as well. Jon: Well, I would say that if your intent is to put up a barrier for the consumer, that there's no positive, they can come of that in my point of view, right? People are at your site because they're there to complete a task, right. They think that your product or service can help them complete that task. And now if you are trying to actively prevent them from completing the task, they want to complete only because you want them to complete the tasks you want them to do. There's no positive that's going to come out of that. Right. For instance, you're in a checkout and the default check is yes, subscribe email list, right. How many times do people just leave that checked, right. Or you use confusing language check here to not receive our emails lists each week. Ryan: I love that example of yours. Like, wait, what do I... Is it checked? Jon: Exactly. Yeah. All of that stuff is where I end up getting really, really frustrated. And when I see that stuff often, quite honestly, I choose not to work with that brand. I just say we're not a good fit because our mission to remove all of these bad online experiences is not going to be further long by working with them because they don't really want to help the consumer. Right. Maybe it's a mistake if there's one of them or maybe they got some bad advice at some point, if it's just one thing that's happening, or they using an app that makes it too easy to do that. Like one of those purchase apps you were talking about that come up out of the corner and telling you that somebody purchased recently, but they didn't. But I would say, at that point there's really not anything I can do to change the ethics of that company. And that's, I think what this really comes down to. And there's too many brands out there that want to help consumers and do the right thing that they don't... We don't need to work with the brands who are only just trying to use psychology to trick people into purchasing. Ryan: Yeah. I think both of us have been as long enough. We know there's a lot of people in our industry that loves selling some snake oil and there are a lot of them giving bad advice and I come across constantly. So that's why my mission's probably not as holistic or maybe pretty as yours. I'll say mine is like, I just want to put all my competitors out of business that are selling snake oil and then sell [crosstalk 00:17:04] behind me. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Save e-Comm brands from stupid advice. Jon: Hey, that's a good moral lesson in that though. Right? Just making it happen. Right. And I think the reality is, is you guys have won it Logical Position, and you've gotten as big as you have because of the way you treat people and handle these accounts. Right. You would never be serving 6,000 clients if you tried all these tricks because there would be a handful of people out there who would be okay with it. But the vast majority of brands are good. And I wholeheartedly believe that, but unfortunately, what do they say? That one bad Apple spoils the whole bunch. Is that the phrase? Ryan: Yeah. At least it does on my phone. Jon: Yeah. I've been apple picking once when I was a kid maybe, but I can't claim to have much farm experience. Ryan: So, just as in most things in business, as long as you filter through some type of lens that says, is this something I would be comfortable with my mom getting or being presented with like, Hey, if I'm lying that somebody is checking out and there's an app for that. Why on earth would it make sense for me to put it on there? If I know that, Hey, this might convince my mom to buy something she doesn't need and be a good human at the end of the day. If you do that as a business owner with an e-Comm site, you're not going to be putting these things on there to do this. And hopefully we're going to help you put your competitors out of business who are trying to do those things. Jon: Well, I think that's a great lens to put this through the mom test, right. Be thinking about this. If you are doing something that you wouldn't want done to your mom. Then don't do it. Right. And I think that, that's a really good way to look at this. If it would trick your mom into doing something that she really didn't want to do, then just get rid of it. Would you want your mom automatically opting into this privacy statement or would you want your mom to automatically get these emails? And you know she'd be frustrated if she just wants to purchase a product. And all of a sudden was getting marketing emails every day. Or if she got tricked into doing an upsell on a product, because it was default added to the cart, the highest, most expensive shipping option was chosen when there were way cheaper options. There's a lot of things like that that happen all the time. And the problem is, it's really something that would frustrate most people. But I think I see it more than probably the casual online shopper, but I also have [inaudible 00:19:40] and obligation to resolve those problems when I see them as much as possible. Ryan: Yeah. And if you do convert optimization, right, you don't need them. Jon: Right. Ryan: And that's the crazy thing. You don't need gimmicks, if you've got a solid business, good products, and you've worked with Jon, or if you're not quite to Jon's level, you're doing just good things at the end of the day. And I think the example of shipping is a phenomenal one that I didn't even think about until you said it that as a business owner, you're like, Hey, shipping, we make margin on this shipping or not this shipping. And we have free shipping here or not, but you can just check this one because it just makes sense maybe from a business perspective where is, we need more margin here because we're giving it up here. But at the end of the day, if you just do what is right, that you would want done to you, you've got that potential for customer lifetime value. Jon: Right. Ryan: And that's where your profit can come from. Jon: Yeah. I really like your approach of, if you've wouldn't do it to your mom, don't do it on your set. I think that's great. I wholeheartedly believe in that. And I think all of these things would fall under that. Right. Would you really want to do face fake scarcity and make your mom believe there's only one item left when there's not? Ryan: I'll tell you your mom, she's an idiot that she doesn't want to save money. I know my mom wants to save money, believe me. I'm not going to call her an idiot for not- Jon: Exactly. She doesn't want your emails. That's why she's clicking no. But... Ryan: Yep. Jon: Yeah. Well, I think this has been great conversation though. Ryan: Yeah. Me too. So is there anything anybody needs to know that we haven't touched on when it comes to dark patterns or things you can or might do to your site even by accident that you just want to be aware of? Jon: Yeah. I would think the first thing you should do when you add any app from the Shopify app store or any of those is give it a good look. Don't just use it because you see a competitor using it. Don't just assume they have positive intent here, go install it and then really dig in. Do some user testing on it, get understanding from consumers. Is it really being helpful for them or is it causing a another barrier in their road to conversion? And if it is ask yourself, am I putting up that barrier because it's better for me, or am I putting up that barrier unnecessarily? And it's actually making it hard for them to complete the purchase, which is what you ultimately want. And I have yet to hear an example that fits into both of those. Again, it's either black or white, it's either white hat or black hat, and there's really nothing in between that I can find. And if somebody listening to this has a great example of that. Please let me know. I would love to have some good examples of that. Ryan: Put it on LinkedIn, share it with Jon, so we can all see. Jon: Yeah. Tag Ryan and I. Ryan: Well, thanks Jon. I appreciate you giving me an education and anybody else's listening for that because it's very helpful. Jon: Awesome. Thanks Ryan. Appreciate the conversation. Ryan: Thank you.

It seems most brands are using email popups on their website. Today Jon dismantles this practice with passion, explaining why they're bad for everyone, and offering better alternatives. TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Jon, we've spoke together quite a few times around the country, and then recently just around the internet, since we can't leave our houses. And almost every time we talk, you ruffle quite a few feathers when you're answering questions about email pop-ups. It seems that most retailers and brands out there on their websites, they are absolutely in love with their email pop-up campaign, they think it can do no wrong. And I personally don't like them because they're just annoying and I close them immediately because I'm trying to look at something else. And, but you're distaste, some may say hate, goes a little bit deeper within this space, but so many, again, so many brands are using these. It's just making me crazy. So, I want to talk about these and get your opinion, the backend and the numbers that are guiding your distaste for these. But even to start with, what do you think is pushing this trend and what data are these merchants seeing that's causing these email pop-ups for discounts or anything just to become the norm? If you don't have it, you're weird almost at this point. Jon: Brands, what they're doing is they see another successful brand they look up to have email popups and they say, "It must be working for them. We need to do this as well." It goes in line with all the little Shopify apps that are out there that just spread like wildfire overnight, and then they'd disappear just as quickly once everybody realizes they don't actually move the needle, but they saw their competitor trying it out, so they thought they showed as well. Tons of examples of that. I think that's generally what happens here, first of all. Second of all, the brands see that email is their highest revenue channel, most likely. And so, they say every time I send an email, it's like printing money. So I should collect more emails. And that sometimes even comes down from the executive level, down to that marketing manager who is needing to implement that, whether they think it's right or not. And third, I think what happens is that brands look at a success metric of how many people do we have on our email list. And they see these pop-ups collect email addresses. And so, they assume they are working. And I guess the goal that they usually have is just to collect email addresses at all costs, right? And they're thinking, "If I get someone on my email list, I can then continue to market to them and the rest will fall into line." And that just is a huge problem. It's, to me, it's the wrong way to be thinking about it. And after optimizing sites for 11 years, statistically, it's not accurate. Ryan: Being an e-commerce brand myself, I know that if my email list goes from 10,000 to 20,000, I'm probably making more money from email. So, where are brands missing the logic behind these pop-ups and not equating to larger email database equals more revenue from emails every time I send one? Jon: Yeah. I think, I don't have an issue with collecting email addresses. As I said, it should be, and looking at 10 decades of content and data around emails, it definitely can be your highest revenue channel. The problem I have with is the method of collecting, right? So, let's just start with that. I mean, we could, there's lots of directions, we'll, I'm sure we'll go today about the method of doing it around discounts and everything else, but let's just talk about the pop-up form in itself. And what I mean by that is just there are multiple ways to collect email addresses. You can start with those who have ordered and how you have the actual customer contact information that you own, right? If you doing an owned to sale, as opposed to something like an Amazon, then you have that information, people you can remarket to and continue to sell to. However, if you just put a pop-up on your site versus maybe even baking a form into the page, right? Where customers who are actually interested, will scroll down to your footer and they'll enter their information because they're super interested. Right? I would almost encourage anyone listening to this to set a separate form up in your footer and tag people who fill that form out as higher intent, because they actually are interested in what you had to say. Now, the problem with a pop-up, let's just talk about straight up pop up, not an exit intent, right? Ryan: So, you're categorizing your email pops up into different buckets? Jon: Yes. Yes. There's different types. And I think that's important here because the one that I want to eliminate from the internet is just the pop-up. As soon as I come to a site, or maybe as soon as I start scrolling or even the timed ones that come up within a couple of seconds of loading the page, those are the ones I want to eliminate. Now, exit intent. Let's put that in a different category. I'm not as opposed to those. But what I'm talking about here is the disruption to the consumer experience, the interruption factor as well. Think of your site like a retail store. Now I know your wife has a retail store, right? If I walk into her store and she jumped out at me and said, "Here's a clipboard, give me your email address." I'm going to probably have a negative reaction to that. Right? Ryan: At least she's cute. That does help. Jon: Well, Hey. Ryan: Popups, aren't as cute. Jon: Hey, you know what I mean? You could make, you could put a nice looking picture on a pop-up, but that still doesn't change the fact that I'm there because I have a problem that I'm looking to solve. And I'm at the website because I think that their product or service can solve my pain or need. And all of a sudden now, before I know anything about the brand, something led me there, was it I clicked on an ad or a Google search or someone told me about it, so I have idea that they can help me solve my pain or need. But then all of a sudden I just get there, I still don't know about the value proposition of the brand, I don't know much about their products yet, but then I'm getting hit up right away being asked to give them information. And I think that that's just disruptive and I can promise you every test we've run where we've eliminated that pop-up conversion rates have gone up on the site and sales and revenue. Now yes, you will collect less email addresses. But I argue that's not a bad thing in this case, with this type of pop-up. And the reason is a couple of faults. So, first of all, the email addresses you're going to collect out of those pop-ups are going to be very, I would argue they're not going to be very effective, right? Because you're getting a consumer who is entering their email address into that pop-up specifically to get rid of the pop-up in a lot of cases, because they... This goes into more things like negative intent shaming, because maybe in that popup, it's a pretty common trend now for a company to say something like, "No, I don't like discounts and offers." Ryan: Gosh, I hate that. I had that happen a couple of days ago. And I was like, "Of course I like discounts. I'm not an idiot, but I just don't like you telling me that I don't like discounts." Jon: Right. You're you're hurting the brand, right? And you're hurting your customer experience and that's damaged that you now have to repair. So, within the first five seconds of getting into the website, you're already have dug yourself a hole you have to get out. Ryan: Yeah. And I think brands are getting kind of like, "Ooh, we're kind of that little unique, give it to the man brand. And we're going to use that humor." [crosstalk 00:07:34] That doesn't necessarily come through because I actually don't know you yet. And maybe that's my first... I don't know that that's the type of brand you are. I was looking for a pair of board shorts. And now all of a sudden you're telling me I'm an idiot before I even know that you're, that's the voice of your brand. Jon: Exactly. Okay. This is another great example of real world for this, right? Popups are just like those people who canvas on the street corner, who come up and you're just trying to walk by and get to your next location, right? You're trying to get some job done in your life, going to the coffee shop or whatever it might be, you have a meeting you're walking to. And Greenpeace, not just to pick on Greenpeace, but they're out all over in Portland. They run up to you with a clipboard and they say, "Hi, can we chat for a minute?" And it's like, "No, I'm trying to get something done. This is not a good time for me." And then they follow you, "Well, did you know that this is happening with the environment? And this is happening." And it's like, "Yeah. You know what? That might still be important to me, but now's not a good time." And they're like, "That's fine. Just give me your contact information. We'll follow up with you." And it's like, "No, no, no. I don't know who you are." Right? I don't want to just give some random person my contact information. And then what are you doing with that contact information? So, I think the problem is, is that marketers stop having empathy for what the consumer is going through on the other side of the screen, and they just feel like it's okay because they can't see that person to do these really poor consumer experience activities on their site. And that's what I try to fight against with this. And unfortunately pop-ups is the worst example of this on the internet. And so, that's why I ended up fighting against it. Ryan: Oh yeah. And it's people like me that are probably helping give them bad numbers since my computer saves the email address na@na.com for all of my form fills that I don't want them to email me on and I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, here you go. Have that." Jon: Well, that's exactly it. So, now let's talk about the data that a marketer's going to get back out of this pop-up, right. So, a new site pop-up, you just came to this, a new visitor pop-up I should say. I get a form. Sometimes it just says, "Give me your info and you can stay up to date on the latest product releases, et cetera." So maybe they're not really dangling a carrot there. Right? I can't figure out how to close it. Maybe there's no close button and it takes over the entire screen and it's really annoying. So what happens? You put in an email address that like na@na.com, right? So now the brand has pretty muddy CRM, right? Their customer data, their marketing data is pretty horrible. Now what's going to happen there is, they're going to start using all that data. Some will clean it, but I guarantee you most don't based on our experience and what happens is they're going to use those email addresses that are uncleaned. They're going to start sending them through their email platform. And then they're going to get a ton of bounces, a ton of spam complaints for those who might be okay, it might be good, or they're going to get a bunch of generic Gmails that never get opened. And I promise you one thing that's happening with your emails and large providers like Gmail, MSN, et cetera, is they're tracking when you send an email out to a thousand people, Gmail knows that at that same email is going out to a thousand people on their platform, and they're looking to see how many people are opening and clicking on that. And they're tracking that data to make sure that spam doesn't get through. And if nobody's opening it, nobody's clicking it, it's more likely to end up in that dreaded promotions folder or just directly into spam. [crosstalk 00:11:07]. And that's not even without people who are actually seeing that email and marking it as spam, which is only going to hurt your deliverability. So, over time what's happening is the quality of your email list is going way down only because of how you collected that as emails and the methodology you went through. And so, what happens then is you've turned what should be your highest revenue generating channel into something that is no longer producing at the level it used to, even though you have more email addresses on it. Ryan: Got it. Okay. That makes a lot of sense there. And you can kind of send yourself in a downward spiral. But I can also see the logic behind getting to that point. If logic states that me as a brand or a website, I'm willing to break even on my first order from Google ads when I'm buying traffic to my site, and then if I don't have an email up and I put it on, I'm like, "Oh, 10% discount. That's only going to increase people's conversion rates because I'm giving 10% off. But then these are people that maybe weren't going to buy, but now are because people that were going to buy, maybe they would anyway without the discount." So, I understand that logic to a degree, but how do you see that logic break down when somebody actually starts going through with that execution? Jon: Well, so now we're combining two negatives. We're taking an email pop-up that's disruptive and we're making it a discount. Now what's happening is same thing. As you said earlier, I just got to the brand, I don't know anything about the brand or their value proposition, et cetera, but now you want my contact information, and also you're already giving me a discount. Now, why are you offering a discount to somebody who just got to your site? They haven't exhibited any signs of intent to buy just yet, other than showing up at your door and you're giving up precious margin and you're creating a discount brand right away. Where it's the first thing I know about this brand is, they're going to give me a 10% off for giving me an email address. It's like, "Well, okay." And what's going to happen here is a couple of things. One is, you're creating a discount customer who sees your brand as a discount brand forever, just because that's the first impression they have. And the problem with this is you've done it just to collect an email address. Well guess what? What's going to happen now is that person's going to put in their junk email address again, the one they use just for discounts and pop-ups, right? Ryan: Everybody's got one of those. Jon: Exactly. We all use Gmail for that, probably. Right. So, then what happens from there? Well, perhaps they might open the email, maybe not, more likely not. They just wanted that discount code. And the worst offenders in these popups are the ones that, where they collect the email address without any verification, they don't email you the discount code. They just show it in the box in the pop-up. So, they just give it to you right away. Well, then that's even worse because you're putting in whatever email address you want and you're still going to get the discount. The other thing here is that, now every time I come back to buy, I'm going to want that discount. And I know I don't need to pay retail. I know that you're going to offer 10%. So, what am I going to do? I'm going to open your website in incognito, and I'm going to give you another fake email address just to get another discount code or another junk email address, or I'm going to do that Gmail trick, where you can put a plus sign and then anything you want after the plus sign. So, it's like Jon+, whatever I want @gmail.com and it ignores anything with the plus sign and after that. Ryan: That I did not know. Jon: So, you can create [crosstalk 00:14:31] a million email addresses just out of your one Gmail address. And most email platforms allow you to use a plus sign because it's a valid email character. And so, it's really interesting when we start working with brands, one of the first things we do when they put up a fight about removing their pop-ups, or at least running a test around it, is we go into their email database and check for the plus sign and see how many emails have a plus sign in it. And most of it it's like, plus spam is what people put, right? Or they'll even get more tricky. People who are really, want to know if you're selling their email address, or if you're giving it away or if you're abusing them and they do plus in the brand name. And then it's like if you sell that email address or share with a partner, do anything else, they now know where that came from, and they're even more upset with you when that happens. So, I think it's really important here that people, brands really need to think about not discounting because you're basically taking what is a bad consumer experience and you're making that a bad experience for your brand too. And you're just doing that to collect an email address. And now you've created a discount customer right up front, who's forever going to look at your brand as a discount brand. And that's a really hard hole to dig out of in the future. Ryan: Well, and I think a lot of brands don't give consumers enough credit, and I think people pick it up pretty quick, where they know the strategies to try to get discounts. Especially people like me that just because I can, I'm not going to give up 10% of my money to a brand just because I like them. If I can keep 10% in my pocket, I will, even if I can afford the full price, which generally is the case, if I'm shopping for it. And so, my wife knows that I'm the cheap one in the relationship. And if she's going to go buy something, she knows that if she can tell me she bought something, but got a discount, and I'm like, I'm much less likely to put up a fight about that. And so she knows the strategy. It's like, "Okay, all I need to do on my computer is start to move my cursor towards the navigation bar and boom, exit intent pop up." Or she even tells me now, she'll just, if she's interested in something, but it's not a need, it's a more of a want, she'll go put things in shopping carts, and then just wait a few days. She's like, "I don't need it right now. They're not going to run out of inventory. I'm going to go set up a shopping cart, I don't care. See if they sent me a discount." [crosstalk 00:17:29]. Almost all of them do. I mean, just people figure it out. It's not complicated. Marketers, I think sometimes think too much of themselves like, "Oh, we're going to do this. And we're going to trick all these people into spending so much money with us." And I'm like, "Nah." Jon: Well, I think that's exactly where having empathy for the consumer really comes in, right? And just saying, "If you, if this is happening to you, what's the experience you want to have?" And I think this goes back to a whole nother episode we can record on discounting and why that's a challenge. I mean, we just did, you and I just did a webinar yesterday and a big portion of that was about discounting with one of our partners. And I thought it was really interesting because so many brands are discounting. And when you think about this, you could be doing so many things that are and offer and not a straight percentage or dollar off discount. And I'm okay with doing an offer in an email. And there's a lot of other ways to collect email addresses that tie in with offers, right? I mean, you could do "Coming soon, get on the list to be first notified," and that's providing value for an email address that they wouldn't get unless they gave you the email address. But it's also valuable to them. You could do, something where it's like, "Hey, if you sign up for our email list in checkout, you get free shipping." Right? So, you're giving some value. It's not a straight dollar or percentage off discount. You're doing an offer and there's scarcity. You could say, "Hey, these products sell out. It's sold out right now. If you sign up for this list, you'll be notified." And we have a brand we work with, a really high end camping brand, that a lot of their products, they sell out before they've even landed in the United States for manufacturing, where they just have a running list on their product detail pages that say, "Hey, this product is sold out. We have a new product coming in soon, get on the list, we'll notify you. And it will be presale before it goes up on the site." Now there's a lot of value to a consumer who wants a product and is interested in that and giving their email address for that purpose. And it's a much better way to collect an email address over offering a discount. So, now they're selling these products before they've even hit the site. They're selling them at 100% margin or, well, not 100% margin, but without draining their margin by discount, right? Ryan: Or marketing. Jon: Or marketing costs. [crosstalk 00:19:54]. Yeah. What? Fractions of a penny to send that email. So, I think it's really interesting that brands immediately go to this discount right upfront and present that discount through such a disruptive manner that they have to use an email pop-up. Ryan: I think it's just, I mean, it's the easy button that they're thinking about. They're not taking that next step and actually having conversations with people, strategizing what could my options be? Because even me, having you as a friend and a business partner and various things, I come to you and I'm like, "Okay, Jon, I know you don't like discounts, but I know that there's value in somehow doing something like that, that maybe is not a discount, that keeps me from being a discount brand." And you've got phenomenal ideas for ... Now, we should probably do one, a thing on that. But you don't have to give a discount to give a discount type thing, which is a difficult thing. You have to really think through it. Jon: Right. Yeah. And you got to be creative with the offer, right? And sometimes people, like you said, it's the easy button. There's so many Shopify apps, for instance, that do these pop-ups and do discounts. Then there's apps that are really cheap to free that will do customized discount posts for email address exchange, stuff like that. It blows my mind because they see other brands using them and they think it must work for them, so we're going to do it too. Or they just, they think discounting is the only way. And I really argued that as soon as you get into discounting, it is impossible. It's like a drug, a really bad drug. It's really hard to get off of that. You got to wean yourself off of it because now everybody is expecting and they're not going to pay retail price. I mean, we talk about how your wife sends you to Michael's to pick up stuff on the way home. And you know that she's going to have a 50% off coupon, no matter what. And if she didn't, for whatever reason, she couldn't find one right then, or whatever, you just ask the person at the register when you're checking out, like, "Hey, what's that? What's the coupon that went out in the mail last week? Do you have it?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, it's right here. Here you go." And they just scan it [crosstalk 00:21:55]. Ryan: Yeah. That actually happened a couple weeks ago. [crosstalk 00:00:21:58]. I was, I got in line, she was like, "I couldn't find my code. Can you just pull one up on your phone and do a search?" I'm like, "Okay, yeah. I'll figure it out." Jon: Exactly. So, they're a discount brand and you go to them because they're a discount brand. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how they want to do it. But I would argue that, they're never getting out of that, right? They're just going to have to slash all their prices if they want to stop doing discounts. Then what promo or offer can you run because you've got razor thin margins at that point? Ryan: Yep. No. And I think one of the points you hit on too, is part of that other bucket of email popups, which you don't hate, those exit intent things. And this one works phenomenally well, for me at least, with one of the clients you've worked with in the past is Nike. One of the shoe companies you're based in Oregon. And I have an affinity for Jordan 4's. I'm not a sneaker head, but that's the one shoe that I grew up always wanting and I couldn't get them because didn't have enough money for them when I was a kid. But now I can. And so, I do keep up on the releases. And so, in this case, I gave Nike all my information to avoid the FOMO, the fear of missing out scenario. And I went to Nike site today just to see what they were doing, saying, "Okay, Jon worked with them. Did they get the message when he was working with them?" And they use only exit intent, no discount. Do you ever advocate for discount at... Well, I already know the answer. But exit intent, how should brands be looking at that? Is there anything besides FOMO or anything to do besides offering a discount that you've seen be successful? Jon: Well, I think that there's a lot of options that you can do in these pop-ups. But specifically in exit intent, this is where it's one of those things that you should really be looking at segmenting your audience and tailoring the message with those pop-ups. So, for you, let's think about the journey you just mentioned you went through. You were, you love Jordan 4's and you were looking at those on the site and they popped up with an exit intent and you were like, "Yeah, sure. I'll do that because I want to be the first to know when new ones are released." There's value there for you in that, right? And they knew, this is a collector shoe, if you will. And most of the people, you claim you're not a sneaker-head, but let's be honest, you probably are if you're into Jordan 4's, right? Ryan: Probably. Jon: And so, the reality here is they know that. That people who are looking at this shoe aren't discount motivated because for them it's all about having the Jordan 4, that they don't need the discount. They could sell those out, no problem without ever discounting them. And in fact, you and I living in Portland, Oregon, we're blessed that we get to go to the Nike employee store occasionally. And whether we're working with them or, somebody who does work with them is able to share a pass with us occasionally. And I can tell you that they have some Jordan's there, but it's not their top sellers. I say that because at the employee store, there's a large discount when you shop there because you get employee pricing, but they don't have their top sellers, usually, in the collectible ones, like Jordan's et cetera there, because they don't need to discount them. If you want them, you're going to just go up on the site and buy it at retail. So, I think that too many brands skip right away to the discount when there's other value adds you could provide. And that's where, again, you got to do a little bit of thinking on that. It can't just be the easy button. Ryan: Okay. So, pop-ups, avoid coming to the site pop-ups. Exit intent could be worth it, but you make sure you're adding some value to that, that customer that causes them to want to give you a real email address and not necessarily just throw a discount out. So, all companies want more emails. Do you have any strategies that you've seen be successful in your experience over the past decade in the e-comm world for brands to get more emails? Jon: Sure. I think there are some great ways to do, I mentioned earlier, some segmenting. So, let's say you run somebody in to your site from a Google ad that has a specific message, your value prop in it, aligning that with the message that you share for an email signup, right? So, maybe they're searching for a specific item and they get to your site and it's out of stock, well, there you go, now you should do not a stock email collection. I think that the biggest mistakes I see around email forms are that they're missing some key information. The first is you really need to set expectations on this email form. What does that mean? Well, you need to tell people what they're signing up for and how often they're going to hear from you. Pretty simple. But most brands say stuff like, "Sign up for updates." It's like, "Why do I care about updates from your brand?" Right? "I don't need more updates." Nobody needs updates. But if you me, I'll be the first to know when Jordan 4's are released, I'm in, right? That's what I'm here for. That's what I want to know. So, it's all about saying, "Okay. Well, how often are you going to hear from me?" Well, maybe it's, "I'll email you once a month." Okay. I'm okay with that. If you say, "I'm going to email you every week," I have to think twice about it, but if I really am into your brand, maybe I'm okay with that. Or maybe it's where we have special product bundles that are only for email subscribers, "Sign up and you can learn about our bundles, exclusives." Right? Things of that sort, that aren't straight up discounts. Ryan: Almost like a merging some of this email acquisition with your loyalty program. Jon: 100%. That is a great way to build email is through loyalty. It's through having, whether you want to do something as complicated as a point system, or just as simple as saying, if you're on an email address, you will get access to things that people who aren't on the email address. Ryan: And people are willing to give you more information, generally, when you're providing value outside of discount. For example, Nike, I give them my birthday. No other company gets my birthday. [crosstalk 00:27:51]. But they're telling me I'm going to get a special reward on my birthday. And I'm like, "Cool." I like Nike. They do have some trust. They built a brand that says, "I can trust them with my data already," just because I have an affinity for them and I've been wearing Nike's for, geez, 30 years. So, there is some of that that maybe not every brand is going to be able to get to, but you can probably do some pretty solid segmentation in your customer database if you had everybody's birthday. Like, Hey, this person's 20, this person's 40, they probably need different messaging. They probably have different interests, different disposable income level. Jon: Yeah. Yeah. The 20 year old is aspiring to get the Jordan's. The Ryan Garrow age folks are really out there to [crosstalk 00:28:35]. Ryan: 22. 22. Jon: Okay. Okay. If you say so. And so I think it's, now you can afford the $300 pair of Jordan's and you're excited to buy them because you've earned that right over all these years of hard work, right? And so, or those two years of hard work, if you will. But I think it's one of those things where most brands aren't even segmenting. They're just doing that really clear scatter shot, hoping to collect email addresses, just to build their list. And I just, again, that's the wrong philosophy, whole-heartedly, full stop. Popups are not the way to do that. And I just, it pains me when I see brands do that. Part of me is because our mission at The Good is, I say all the time is just to remove all the bad online experiences until only the good ones remain. And email popups are such a bad online experience. I'm on a crusade to eliminate those. And part of that is to help brands understand what damage they're doing with these initial email pop-ups. And it's true, I don't hate them just because they get in my way as a consumer, I hate them because of what they do to the brand over time. And the experience that you're putting consumers through is really negatively affecting the brand and the brand perception. And then most brands are applying a discount on top of that, so they're kind of adding fuel to that fire of just negativity and it's really just going to hurt them. Ryan: And the one thing I'll leave with would be the best emails you can get are from people that have purchased from you. So, if you just got more aggressive on getting more customers through marketing or driving people to the site, those people in your email database are going to be infinitely more valuable than anybody that just wants a coupon code or signs up just to have you go away or an email pop-up. So, I would challenge a lot of brands just to say, if you're comfortable giving an additional 10% discount, so you're taking 10% off your top line for somebody, why don't you just get 10% more aggressive on your marketing and get that customer to actually buy something and get more of them and increase your market share because that's the type of emails in my database that I'm going to be in love with. Jon: Yeah. I mean, you mentioned right up off the top that you're happy to spend your initial margin on that first purchase to acquire the customer through Google ads or whatever advertising you would do to get them to the site, so that you can continue to market to them and go after that customer lifetime value. And that's the right way to approach this because that's sustainable. Where if you're just going to give a discount and someone's only going to purchase once, because they can't get that discount again, or maybe they just see you as a discount brand, then you're going to have a bigger issue. So, I'm all for paying to get people to purchase, but I'm not, I don't think you should do that through a discount upfront. Ryan: Yeah. Don't go the lazy way. If your marketing team or your agency is telling you, "Use discounts or we can't do our job." It's time to maybe look outside that. Jon: Yeah. Find a new marketing agency. People come to us all the time and they say, "Well, we've been doing optimization on our site." And I say, "Okay, great. Let's talk about what you've been doing." "Well, we put a pop-up on, we offer discounts and our conversion rates went up." I was like, "Well, yeah. You know what? Every house will sell at some price. Ask any realtor. And they'll just say, 'Well, we'll just keep reducing the price until it sells.'" And it's like, well, eventually you're going to sell it for less than you bought it for. And that's exactly what's going to happen with your brand too. Ryan: Oh, and didn't you, you have some stat around, you give a small discount, your conversion rate has to go up just some astronomical percent. What was that number? Jon: Yeah. Mackenzie did a bunch of research on this. They surveyed and did a bunch of research on the, it was like the top 1000 e-comm sites. And what they found was that for every 5% that you run a discount on, you have to acquire, it was like 19% in additional sales just to break even on that discount. Ryan: And most people are not only giving 5%. Jon: Right. It's way more than that [crosstalk 00:32:36]. Ryan: It's usually 10, 15, 20%. Jon: And so, you really have to think about this. Now for 5% discount, is that 5% discount going to get me greater than a 19% additional sales? Likely, that's not the case. And, in fact, the article that I read on that said, and I'll have to quote it, but it said "This rarely to never has ever happened." And I was like, "Okay. So, they said rarely, never, and ever in the same sentence." Ryan: Yeah. Having done this a decade, I can almost guarantee you that that has not happened. I mean, because you would just double that maybe for 10%, you have to get 38% increase in revenue for a 10% discount. There's no way. Jon: If, I mean, if that's how the math works out on that, then yeah, you're screwed if you start discounting at that rate in reality. Because yes, you've collected email addresses and markers will come back to me and say, "Jon, yeah, sure. That's if I only do it on that first sale, but now I'm going to have those customer in my database for a lifetime." And I'm like, "Yeah, but what are you going to have to do to get them continue to buy? You're going to have to give another 5% off and another 5% and another 5%. where do you get out of digging that hole? Right? How do you fill that hole so that you're getting your margin back and your customer lifetime value and your average order value keeps going up? How do you make that happen?" You're better off it doing an offer. And, yep, it may equate to 5% off, but in the mind of the consumer, you're giving them an offer, not a straight dollar or percentage off. And then you come back the next order and you're not having to fight on a discount, you can give them some other offer, perhaps if that's needed. So yeah, we should definitely do a whole show, Ryan, on discounting. I think that could be another way to share one of Jon's things he hates on the internet. Ryan: Yes. I think we for sure should do that. Man, there's so many, so many good things in this. Jon, thanks for the time. I appreciate it. And I come away learning lots of things, including just adding a plus sign to my emails now. [crosstalk 00:34:30]. I can track where I'm being sold. Jon: There you go. Well, I appreciate you bringing the topic up and helping me share one of my missions. So, thanks for doing that. Ryan: Thank you

Google recently dropped all commission fees on their "Buy on Google" platform. On the surface-level this seems like a very intriguing offer. But Ryan here is to explain why "Buy on Google" may not be the best thing for your brand. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Ryan, a few days ago, I sent you an article I read about Google's Buy on Google program and how they were dropping all commission fees for their sellers as part of the program. Now, to me, this seemed like a pretty good deal. Who doesn't like freeways to sell products and utilize a huge platform with lots of awareness like Google search? At least that was my take, but when I asked you about it, you said, and I'll quote, hopefully this is okay, "That product was dead in the water before this change. Some merchants will of course test it, but it will compete for ad presence with their regular Google ads." Honestly, this was not what I was expecting to hear from you at all. I was really interested in connecting with you a bit more about this and just seeing your thoughts on it and getting some more information about the program out and seeing where and when it makes sense for all of our eCommerce listeners to take advantage of it. I guess just to jump right in, Ryan, on a high level, just so we're on the same page, what exactly is Buy on Google? Ryan: Buy on Google is the little colorful shopping cart icon that shows up in Google shopping. When you start filtering and sorting, you actually transact on Google and then the merchant fulfills it. It's basically a Google trying to be this marketplace saying, "Oh, we can trust Google because I'm buying it here." It's a shopping ad set that you're able to get when you push your inventory into Google and say, "Yes, I'm willing to sell this on Google." Previously, there were commissioned tiers to sell different products. It ranged somewhere from five to, I think, 12%. It was a 12% number that Google [inaudible 00:02:07] because it was less than that Amazon 15%. That came out, man, I want to say maybe three, four years ago, maybe in an alpha-beta four years ago. I think it did cause some Amazon changes within their system on what they were going to be charging to try to have more parody with the Buy on Google scenario. Yeah. It was basically give Google the commission that you would maybe be paying Amazon and we'll push your product out there. There's no advertising costs. Google's the one putting it out there and then you just get the sale and give commission to Google. Jon: They're trying to create a marketplace without really holding any inventory or doing any fulfillment. They literally just take the money, take their cut and send everything over to the retailer? Ryan: Yeah. From a high level, it sounds like a great idea like, "Okay. I have all of this work. I'm spending all this money in Google ads and shopping and I've got agency fees or employee costs or my time in it. Now, I can just go to Google and you're just going to take a commission and it's a fixed cost, so I don't have to worry about what my return on Google shopping is." That theory sounds phenomenal. There's not many business owners are going to be like, "Yeah. Here, take my products. Sell them for me. I now know that I'm only going to be paying 12% of my revenue for my advertising cost." There's no scenario in which that doesn't sound like a good idea. Jon: That definitely makes sense. How does Buy on Google differ from Google Shopping? This is a complete novice asking that question. Ryan: It's part of Google Shopping. You only see the Buy on Google when you're in the Google Shopping tab within Google space. It used to be a little more prevalent on the first page of Google, but I believe it's only showing now in the Google Shopping tab. It's one of the filters you can put on there. Jon: Okay. Then, really Google Shopping is getting your listing of products up there. Some of them will take you to the retailer. Some of them will just take your money on Google. Ryan: Yes. It's always interesting. Google's, as we know, a for profit company. They want to make money. When they came out with this program, it obviously sounded great to business owners, but it immediately put up some flags on our team internally to say, "Okay. Google needs to reward shareholders for their investment and needs to make money to afford employees," and all the things they do around the world that are very good and positive, including paying people. If Google is going to take 12% of the revenue for a sale and not charge for any clicks to the merchant that's selling that, in theory, Google's not going to be willing to lose money by showing those products at 12% when they know from a click cost, they're getting a 20% or a five X return for the merchant. Jon: I see. Yeah. Ryan: Google's got a lot of very smart people and they do say that they are out for the good, and they will do things to just benefit people. Period. There is an opportunity maybe that they're willing to take less money, but that's not always the case. You just have to start investigating. That's why I challenge every merchant to do with any product in Google is test and measure and see if it does actually make sense for your brand. Jon: Spoken after my own heart there, test and measure. Ryan: Yes. Jon: I've had an impact, Ryan. I appreciate it. Let me ask you this then. If they're not doing any commission anymore, then how are they going to make any money and how could any brand really think that Google is going to list this above their ads? Ryan: It's a great question. That's why it's surprising that Google made this move, especially when they just released earnings when we're doing this podcast yesterday where they had the first time that their revenue dropped in a quarter. I don't know how long, if ever, that Google being willing to give up money. When that happens, it's telling us internally logical position that, "Okay. Something wasn't going the direction that Google thought it was going to be going." Either we're in the process potentially of just sunsetting this or moving it to a place where it's not going to be necessarily a focus of Google because if there's no revenue coming in, how are you going to support it internally? You can't dedicate a bunch of employees necessarily longterm to a product that makes no money. It's either a stepping stone into something different, or they're taking steps to buy some market share to a degree and try to get people using it in broad adoption so that they can monetize it later. We don't necessarily know where they're going because they won't necessarily tell us this despite our levels of... I actually asked the question. I was interviewing, I think the global partner strategy person for Shopping. He's a big guy in the Shopping space. We were talking about the free and fast program that's recently come out and I brought it up and he's like, "I answered something, but not how you want it. Then, we can't have this in the interview because I'm not authorized to speak on it." Awesome. Thanks. It's a big unknown. I know that if Google is not making money on it generally, it's not going to be something that I, as a brand, am going to get really excited about and try to push all of my eggs into that basket for my personal brand. I might test it. Again, test and measure, see what it does, but my hopes are not high. Also, my hopes are not high, but just because of the nature of the Buy on Google and the data we've seen in it. A logical position... One of the companies I talk about often, I won't mention them by name, but they started working with us in May of 2020 after they had not been doing any paid search with an agency. They had been using Buy on Google with another agency that recommended that this was the greatest thing for them. This sells B2B kind of like distributor cleaning products, just all things businesses need. They have something in the neighborhood of hundreds of thousands of skews. Most of their sales come from Walmart or Amazon, at least, they did at the time. We looked at Buy on Google and they did about $34,000 a month on average. That was over the previous six months, and they paid Google and this agency somewhere around between four and $5,000 for that batch of sales, $34,000 worth. Jon: It seems like a good [inaudible 00:08:20], if you will? Ryan: Yeah. It wasn't terrible by any means. I said, "Okay. Well, that's not bad, but based on what we see, I believe you're limiting yourself on the potential that our website only did, I believe $16,000 in revenue in the month of April." Their web sales, just if it evaporated tomorrow, not a big deal. I said, "Okay. Look, I think you're being limited here. Give us three months to test this and see what we can do." This was in the very end of April. They said, "Okay. Fine. We're going to fire the agency we've been working with, but it's going to take two weeks. You're going to actually officially be able to kick off mid-May. But in the meantime that first two weeks of May, we're going to just push all our products into the merchant center and flip a very basic shopping campaign on based on just... We don't know anything. We're just going to have the products in there. Just see what happens." I said, "Okay. Great. Can't hurt anything while we're building it out." The data, when we're on a test and measure here, Jon, the data in the month of May, half of this was just that are basic campaign. Half was us getting ramped up. Their sales went from the site in April, $16,000 to $192,000. Jon: Now, that's a return on investment. Ryan: They only spent 2,500 bucks in Shopping in the month of May to generate an additional... What is that? $176,000? The crazy thing we saw and it surprises a lot of companies, but shopping has an effect on lots of areas of your site, not just what you're going to see in analytics on Google Shopping. That $2,500 generated Google Analytics last non-direct attribution, $115,000. The organic traffic on the site went from $10,000 in April to $45,000 in May. They weren't even doing any SEO. There was a halo effect on other things that Google Shopping does because you click to a site on Google Shopping, go back and do more research. Then, you're going to come back through other channels. Direct traffic was way up. Email was way up. Social was even up and they don't even do much on social. The Buy on Google doesn't allow for that because you're buying on Google. You're not even going to the website. You don't have the ability to buy other products. We know as well, based on our research and expertise within the Google Shopping space, over 50% of the time, people click on our product to go to a site and they're going to buy something else entirely. You get to the site and you start shopping. You see the data when somebody interacts with product suggestions on a site, time on site goes up dramatically. Conversion rate goes up on dramatically by clicking that suggested product, or you might also like type products. Everything gets better. They've committed to shopping the site. Maybe you can challenge me in that in some other arena, but all you want is a traffic from Google Shopping to get to the site because everything looks better from an analytics perspective. When you don't have that because of the Buy on Google not sending people to the site, you lose all of that. When I'm seeing Google give something for free, red flags and lights and flashes of all kinds of go off in my head saying, "Okay. Either something wasn't working for Google on this. They just need to get it out there more for adoption to try to take a last gasp for effort, or are they going to try to get companies to forget about sending traffic to the site to try to convince them that Buy on Google is the only thing to be doing?" It's just interesting to say the least. Also, if you have the product in Buy on Google and also in Google Shopping, you don't get to show in both ad sets, so it's not giving you extra inventory. It's a replacement, which also tells me if it's now free, how... Yeah. Google's not bad by any means. I think Google's great company. I'm very honored to be partnered with them at the level we are. I know that they're not going to give up all their revenue from Google Shopping. Jon: Right? Well, there's something else they're getting there in terms of... It's like the old adage about Facebook. If you're not paying for it, you're the product. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: There's something here that makes me think that they're interested in the consumer data. Ryan: Yeah. They want some data, and how much are they willing to pay for that? If they have 100% of all merchants adopt that immediately because it's free, they're not willing to take a $10 billion hit in Q3 probably to see some data. Jon: Not after Q2. Ryan: Because Google already has more data than they know what do it through a degree. Again, interesting. You need to watch it, test and measure it, but often it does not make a lot of sense to utilize the Buy on Google for most eCommerce companies. Jon: Is there anything else you feel like eCommerce brands should know about Buy on Google? Ryan: If you put this on your site and you're also running Google Shopping, we've got some merchants that spend north of $10 million a year on Google. When they came to us, they're shopping... Overall, they were using Buy on Google and Google Shopping and their shopping traffic was down 40% year over year including Buy on Google. Then, they couldn't figure it out. They came to us that find out about this. They had some prior relationships with us from other companies, the eComm team that had started working with them. They brought us on and we were able to uncover that when they had flipped on Buy on Google, that's the key thing that happened to drive the volume down. They thought they were going to be adding ad sets, adding all this additional stuff, and it was going to fix their marketing costs because the numbers looked great. When they flipped it on, everything went down and the agency they had been working with just said, "Well, it's just because the market's down or your prices are too high," or they had all these excuses that just didn't necessarily hold water when we started looking at the data. It's not easy to analyze Buy on Google and what the impact on your business, because the transaction is not happening on your website. You don't see that in Google Analytics. There's a lot of matchup data. There's a lot of filtering and analysis you have to do that is very complex to actually see the impact. When I say test and measure, you're going to actually have to do a lot of work on that measuring to figure out what the impact actually is. You have to look at skew data to see, "Okay. This product, I started showing in Buy on Google. What was the impact of overall sales in taking some of my offline data?" Because the Buy on Google's not going to show up in Analytics. What does that look like? When we put it here, we started seeing what's the impressions of Google Shopping that I lost? If I lost again, easy math, a thousand impressions and 10 sales on Google Shopping when I flipped on the Buy on Google, did I get more than 10 purchases of that specific product? Probably need more than that because the halo effect of Google Shopping of my organic traffic getting more searches and clicks and purchases because of my shopping investment, that goes away. You got to take in the fact, the halo effect. Go in paranoid like I do with most things. I'll go in paranoid to start and say, "Okay. If my business is not going to go to the direction I want to, where am I going to see it? What levers am I going to need to push and pull quickly and uncover some changes?" Jon: Is that paranoid why you live on a farm and all that acreage? Ryan: No. I also have four small kids and you need room to run. We're very blessed in COVID time to have all that room. Jon: You had said at some point, as we were having this conversation a few days ago, that larger merchants will usually lose volume when they have both ads and shopping actions. Is that summarizing what you were talking about a second ago? Ryan: Generally, yeah. It's simply because you can't show both ad sets. Playing out the conspiracy theorist in me saying, "Okay. Google's... Previously, they were going to get 12% from your Buy on Google, but they knew they were getting 20% with people clicking on ads to your site, they're probably going to take the 20% margin that they were getting on click and not show the Buy on Google." Buy on Google, you don't get any search queries, so we don't actually know what you were showing for. What we were seeing often was that it was cannibalizing brand terms and taking some of the easy stuff that you were probably getting at less than 12% cost already. Not that it's bad, but even smart shopping to a degree, take some of those easy layup searches and shows a pretty strong ROI. But a lot of that was brand that maybe you could have been getting a better return on ad spend with a more complex shopping structure. That's where you can't see the data from a search query perspective, so you have to see it from a transaction perspective. You're never going to get really apples to apples, but when you're comparing it volume loss of sales or volume increase based on skew, you'll want to hopefully have a lot of that data you can be pulling. If you have smart campaigns running currently on Shopping, you're probably not a large merchant. If you are a large merchant, we should chat. Smart campaigns are quite limiting to your scale, but if you have smart shopping and then you do Buy on Google as well, you have zero data in both of those. You're just going to be able to measure total site sales and maybe they do increase, but could they have gone higher if you went just to a manual shopping campaign structure and didn't do either smart shopping or Buy on Google. It's a difficult analysis, but it's something that all brands spending over 10,000 a month on Google should probably be doing. If you're doing spending money on Google Shopping and also doing Buy on Google, you need to be doing some deep analysis of what that looks like because I would venture, I guess when you flipped Buy on Google on, you probably lost some volume because of that transit. People not being able to shop the site and add different complimentary products. Jon: Right. Ryan: Buy on Google doesn't do that. They don't know what the complimentary products would be, but if you work with Jon who's going to help you figure out some of those things that are going to help your conversion rate to help your AOV, you can only do that on your site. Jon: Right. Yeah. That's been my rub with Google Shopping and I guess Buy on Google, more specifically is that you have very little control and you lose the contact information for the buyer. This leads me to my next question, which was I had mentioned there was an article in Forbes that kick started this whole conversation. That article says something along the lines of Google just updates eCommerce game to attract more sellers, but it's still not enough to compete with Amazon. What stuck out there was not that it's not enough to compete with Amazon, but this has been viewed as a play to compete with Amazon. Do you agree that this is a play to compete with Amazon? Ryan: Well, Google and Amazon has been competing for over a decade. I don't think it's a new thing for Google to try to test waters to create more of a marketplace. It just makes sense. With over 50% of all eComm transactions happening on Amazon, there is a risk to Google on ads that people could be just moving stores to Amazon and not paying for traffic on Google. That is a potential that Google is probably well aware of, probably not giving them any insight they don't already have. Jon: But I was wondering with that approach also, they're willing to offer this for free almost as like gut punch to Amazon in that, "Hey, we'll keep the customer data and the sale. We'll give that commission up to increase the volume and steal basically the revenue away from Amazon," almost as a way as a retaliation. I'm sure Google would never say this, but for Amazon launching on platform ads, which kind of hurt... I'm sure hurt some volume on Google. Ryan: I don't necessarily think that if you are selling online, you're not aware of Google or this was what was going to all of a sudden, get you to start working with Google to a degree. I think that there is some of that there like, "Hey, we want to try to get more merchants and more data," but I don't think that that was necessarily the play for Google that they're trying to use this to be the marketplace or take down Amazon at all. Then, probably trying to get new data to see, "Oh, if it is free, what is that doing to our margin? What is that doing to the volume of people buying on Google? Does that give us the ability to push into a marketplace?" The fact that they're integrating with PayPal, the fact they're integrating with Shopify Pay is pretty big. Letting people pay with those things, so it does seem that there is a marketplace potential here and it may be if we play this out, I'm guessing that Google is taking some margin from PayPal and Shopify Pay if people are using those for the transaction. Jon: I see. Ryan: Google's Pay could be as a merchant processor at the end of the day because they already have Google Pay. If they're making enough money on the processing fees, maybe they don't need to charge for a marketplace listing. Jon: That's a great way. I hadn't thought about that, but that's a great way for them to increase the volume there, which probably makes their cost cheaper to process those overall because of the larger volumes. Yeah. That's a great idea there in terms of how this makes sense for them. That leads me to my next thought, which is that Google has really tried several ways to take a piece of the eCommerce pie in the past few years. Right? We talked about Google Pay for instance, right? But I don't see a whole lot of eCommerce brands taking advantage of it or really making it a priority to support all these things. Do you have a feeling that Google will ever become a really large player in the actual eCommerce space besides driving traffic? Ryan: I would never bet against Google. Jon: That's fair. Ryan: They have a tremendous amount of intelligent people and more data in the eCommerce space than almost any other company [inaudible 00:22:14] in Amazon just control it. I think there's so much value to owning the customer experience for brands that as a brand owner myself, I do have an Amazon storefront. I do advertise on Google. I do have my own website. I look at Amazon as a retailer because it's their customer. It's not a me customer. For me, the more people that I can get my product into their hands through Amazon, the more likely they are to become a loyal advocate brand fan for my brand and maybe they'll buy from my site. Maybe they'll follow me on social and I can get new products into them, but I know it's Amazon's customer and Google can send traffic to my site. I have a lot of affinity for that because they're willing to share all of that customer data with me and not own it. It's difficult for me to be able to give up my customer and sacrifice that data and potential relationship and experience that I know I want my customer to have on my site to ever be like, "Okay. I'll never drive traffic to my site. I'll just let the transaction happen all over the place with everybody else's system." Jon: Government antitrust interviewing aside with all these big tech companies recently. I've always wondered why Google didn't just buy Shopify before it went public or by big commerce before it goes public. I could see a massive antitrust issue there perhaps where they own the entire ecosystem, but I also think that for them to really get a piece of this pie in the longterm in terms of on the transaction side, I almost see that that's going to have to be a requirement and we'll see what happens, but it would be interesting for them to take a play there. Ryan: Yeah. I think it's going to be easier for a Shopify to move into a marketplace than it is for Google to move into a web ecosystem that you can't get out of, but there's potential that Amazon gets broken up. As big as it is, maybe they have to uncouple their fulfillment and let everybody on the planet use Amazon fulfillment or Amazon becomes just the marketplace. I foresee that as potential. I know that Shopify is moving into logistics. They're going to start fulfilling orders for their merchants. There's a lot of frenemies in the digital marketing space. You and I partner with companies that we technically can compete with on certain areas as well. It's not uncommon and it's going to be to fascinating next few years to see how a lot of this is going to shake out. Jon: Yeah. Not really on topic, but I do see that if Shopify starts fulfilling, that's a huge win for Amazon because they can go back and say, "Well, we're not on it. There's no antitrust issues here," that Shopify fulfills and they do two days. Walmart now does one day. What's the problem? You could definitely see that argument. Ryan: Yeah. I think Walmart, we need... I didn't mention. You brought up Walmart. I think they have more distribution than even Amazon. Amazon has for their FDA, I think something in the neighborhood of 77 locations around the country. Walmart's got, I don't know how many thousands of stores, but a lot of them and Shopify has all this data around all of these merchants that a lot of them sell the same thing. If you've got the same skew at Shopify system, they know where you're located. They know where you're shipping from. In theory, Shopify could start selling that particular product and saying, "Hey, merchant X, Y, Z, you have it listed for 50. We know that we can sell it for 45. Do you want to take 45 and ship it to somebody?" Yeah. Most merchants are going to be like, "Yeah. I'll take that. You're going to share this customer data with me." Kind of like the dealer network. Do you remember Shopatron? I think it's now Kibo or something like that. The dealer or the manufacturer sells it and the dealer fulfills it. That's for sure within the realm of possibility within the next couple of years. Jon: Yeah. Wow. This has been fascinating. Thank you once again for educating me on this. You're always so knowledgeable on what's happening in the Google ecosystem, not only because you guys are such great partners with them at that scale, but also that you dive really deep into this personally as a store owner and somebody who helps clients. I really appreciate your time on this today and looking forward to the next conversation, Ryan. Ryan: Yeah. Me too. Thanks, Jon. I appreciate the time and the good questions.

Today, Jon asks how to determine what your SEM budget should be...and Ryan explains why the answer may actually be to have no budget at all For all your digital marketing needs: https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: It's a common question that I hear quite a bit. "How much should I be budgeting for search engine marketing and how do I even forecast what I should be spending?" Well, securing the SEM budgets is always a challenge, right? So when you do spend on search engine marketing, you want to ensure that you reach your performance goals, but there are countless traps and ways to actually overspend or even underspend on your search engine marketing budget. And even if you follow all the best practices, you could still end up with some inefficiencies, so correctly addressing the ways to misspend requires paid search experts to consistently monitor campaign performance and budget spend. And also they need to have a pulse on what the company is trying to accomplish. So luckily for us, we have access to Ryan and he has access to 6,500 search engine marketing budgets to learn from. So today we're going to talk about ad word budgets and how to forecast what your brand should be spending and how to ensure you don't overspend or underspend. So, Ryan welcome. Ryan: Thanks, Jon. It's a big one. This topic is constantly top of mind for CFOs and there's constant tension, I think, between marketing teams and finance teams over budgets. And for me personally, it's one of my favorite topics and also my least favorite topics, just because of all the tension around it. It's my favorite because almost every company needs to be educated in how to forecast and plan budgets. But it's also my least favorite because it's always an uphill battle with changing the opinions of business owners, executives, finance teams, even marketing teams that don't understand forecasting and budgeting. It's a difficult conversation to have, but I'm happy we're going to be diving into this and hopefully doing some education. Hopefully making people think about what they're doing and how they can be maybe looking at SEM forecasting a little bit differently. Jon: Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to being educated on this. This is a topic that we were chatting before we started recording, and you have some unique perspectives on this that I've never even given thought to. So. Ryan: We both have [inaudible 00:02:32] all kinds of things, Jon. It's great to be able to do this with you, but when this topic came up in our sequence of things we're going to be talking about it. I get all hot and bothered and excited and adrenaline starts flowing and I talk fast. So bear with me, but very similar to how you get when somebody's got a discount email pop up on a site is how I get when somebody tells me what their budget is X number of dollars a month. And don't overspend. It's just, I'm on a personal mission to eliminate SCM budgeting for 99.9% of the population. It just doesn't make sense for most companies. Jon: So explain that to me, I'm interested to learn more. Why is that? Well, Ryan: we get into the conversation because finance people want to see what numbers are going to be and understanding what's going to be coming in and out of accounts. And so it's for the last a hundred years of CFO's doing work to prepare bank accounts. Marketing has been a line item on the P and L that they've paid attention to and set goals around on how much are we going to spend? What are we going to do? How much are we putting into magazines and newspapers and TV ads and billboards? So it's understandable, but SEM is in a very unique position that it's not a normal P and L line item. Let me just use an example because here's what normally happens. Finance meeting, all right, the owner is, "What the heck," gets all red in the face. "What the heck is this $350,000 charge for Google last month? You know, we need to cut that down because our retailers are selling less of our product. We need to save money. And you know, if we go into a COVID time, we've got to control all of our money and keep it from going out so we're not spending $350,000 on Google anymore. Every month, a marketing team, we need to cut a hundred thousand dollars of that." Marketing team reaches out to the logical position says, "Hey, yeah, our wholesale channel is down because nobody's shopping in stores. So we need to cut a hundred thousand dollars of our marketing budget on Google." And that I get it, logically it passes the make sense test that you're going to take that hundred thousand dollars from Google and move it to the bottom line of profit. So you can cover the missing profit from some retailers that aren't selling product. Jon: Right. They're looking at it purely as an expense line item. Ryan: Exactly. Which again, conceptually makes sense. What isn't considered in that is that $350,000 drove 1.3 million of top line revenue, 10,000 new to brand customers, and also had an impact on two million organic direct traffic revenue. And so cutting that hundred thousand dollars, most likely won't even save that company money. It'll probably cost them revenue and profit because it's not going to be driving as much top line revenue. And many times in the past, if you cut a hundred thousand dollars of billboards, you may not actually feel an impact in the business at all over the next month, depending on what you're selling, depending on what the billboard's mentioning, but it simply does move that hundred thousand dollars to the bottom line. And that again, logically makes sense. But with SEM, it doesn't operate like a historical marketing channel. It is driving so many other things that impact the business. And so because of that, it is somewhat complicated to explain that to a business owner over a phone call or, "Hey, we've got five minutes with the exec team. Let's tell them why we need to be spending on SEM." For most businesses, I'll add, will start with the crazy notion that you should not have a budget for paid search. It should be, "Nope. You are going to set your goals and going to spend. And if you can spend more, you are going to take it if you're hitting your goals." Jon: Okay. So it's not an expense line item. It's an investment. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: Okay. Ryan: If you're printing money with an investment, is there any reason you wouldn't continue printing money? And the general answer is, "Well, no, if I put a dollar in and I get $10 back, I'm going to go find a bunch more dollars. There's no limit to the number of dollars I can be spending. Because I could take that $10 that I just printed and put it back in and it prints a hundred and I take it out and it prints a thousand." The asterisk to this, which we will touch on probably a little later is it does make sense to forecast sales from SEM, potentially based on historical data for inventory or production. And that's where it does get kind of like a sliding scale on what we can spend based on the inventory we have. And I've got a couple of examples on that. Jon: So if you're not budgeting the spend, should you be looking at the back end is what you're saying. You should be budgeting the return on that adspend and what that's going to be in revenue. So you're saying, "I want to make a million dollars. What does the adspend take to hit a million dollars?" Ryan: Maybe? But the reality is, is I challenge companies to, yes, you're going to look at this, after the fact on a PNL, as a line item, but in the month itself, the spend on SEM actually doesn't have an impact on cash. Therefore it's not necessarily a normal P and L line item. So easy math example, you're going to spend a hundred dollars on paid search on Monday. Great. You set up your Google Ads account. You've got your credit card on there. You spend a hundred dollars on your credit card on Google. It drives $500 of revenue. Okay? That hundred dollars that you spent on Google Ads doesn't even hit your card until you spend 500. So it's still just in Google system. You spent in essence, at that point, fake money, it didn't hit anything. It's just a Google system, but that $500 that you processed on your website is real money. And that's going to hit your account as soon as your merchant processor will send it to you. So let's just say easy math. It's going to hit you on Wednesday 48 hours later. So every day you're going to spend a hundred dollars to get 500, your credit card's not going to get built from Google until end of day Friday, when you hit the $500 billing threshold from Google. And by that time you've already collected $500 on Wednesday, $500 on Thursday, $500 on Friday, that's hit your bank account minus the processing fee. But we will ignore that for this example, you've got $1,500 in your bank account. Your credit card has only been hit for $500. If you are like me and you're [inaudible 00:08:29] this, I pay my credit card once a month. And I pay off the entire balance on ever pay interest. And that credit card bill is probably not due until the 14th of the next month. Let's say this was the first of the month. So you've got 45 day float on that hundred dollars you spent on Monday. And by that time you've already collected money. And if you're not losing money, which ideally you're not, but you're actually making money, then it's a money printing machine that actually doesn't cost you any money. You have, in theory, an unlimited amount of money, as long as you're at least breaking even just from a cash perspective, right? And your credit card limit, obviously. Jon: So it's no longer about SEM budget forecasting. It's around the laws of SEM cash flow. Ryan: Not every business has unlimited inventory. So you might be able to spend a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow to generate a hundred thousand and $1 of profit in your business. But if you don't have the inventory to back that up, then you do have problems. And we have some clients right now that are struggling to get inventory from China for their production. I think one company has a hundred containers en route from China they're just waiting on to be able to sell and they can flip a switch, and that inventory is almost going to be gone immediately. It's crazy, the demand for their products. So from that perspective saying, "All right, we have this much inventory coming. We want to sell it." And maybe that becomes the conversation around, okay. Based on the historical data of what we've been able to sell, what we've been able to spend, what's the return on adspend goal that we need to be at to sell that much inventory? So again, this is getting somewhat complicated math, but I'll try to boil it down simple. Let's say in my brands, for example, I will spend down to break even to acquire a new customer at any point in time, because I'm competitive. I would love to put my competitors out of business because I think my product is better. My service is better, but break even is fine for me because it doesn't hit the cash. I'm getting new customers. And I have a lifetime value. If, for example, I all of a sudden had a... And this happened, I think in April we had a production hiccup. And so I knew that I was going to run out of inventory if I kept spending down to break even on like, let's make it up the 20th of April. So I said, "Okay, all right, marketing, we're actually going to raise our return on adspend goal because I need to throttle down sales because I can't run out of inventory on the 20th. I have to be able to get to the 30th before I can get my inventory back in." And so that's the strategy I use. I didn't care what we spent, as long as it wasn't losing money. I still, I said, "All right, instead of breaking even, and we're going to get a 2.5 X because based on the historical data, we think that's where my sales special is going to be." So that took some guessing and manipulation on daily sales totals. And we had to watch it pretty carefully. But once we hit inventory levels again, I was right back to pushing aggressively to sell an inventory. Jon: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. So there's other factors you need to be thinking about here and inventory sounds like is a big one for sure. Then that could be the more delimiter than what you should be spending or what the budget would be for SEM. Jon: Let me ask you this as a little divergence, but how do you get leadership on board with this type of mindset? Right? Because if you go in most financial folks would probably understand that return on investment spend, but maybe if leadership and finance is still looking at all of this as a budget line item, that's only on the expense column. How do you recommend people approach this conversation? Obviously there's simple math, just like writing it out, might help, but have you have found any tips and tricks for how to approach leadership about something like this? Ryan: It's difficult again, going into this conversation about money is always... I don't think there's any conversation around money that becomes easy, except, "Hey, I want to give you a million dollars." That's pretty easy. I'd be like, "Yeah. Okay, great. I'm in." The longer an organization has been looking at marketing on Google or Microsoft Ads as a line item that they forecast and budget annually, the more difficult it's going to be to change the minds of the team that's been doing that. We've worked in some billion dollar organizations that said, "All right, last year we did X number of dollars on our website and we expect a 10% growth. Therefore we're going to take our marketing budget for paid search, which was 10% of that total. And then we're going to add 10% to it again. So there's your budget. Go do it. Divide it up by the quarter that you think the revenue is going to come in and four quarters higher, therefore it gets 42% of the budget." And then they work down into the week and have even daily budgets. Those organizations are going to be much more difficult because they're bigger, their CFO, they were publicly traded. So they had to report numbers to shareholders and forecast what their expenses were going to be. And because SEM is an expense you report to shareholders, if that expense was a hundred percent higher than you told them it was going to be last month, they may not be happy because they're not understanding what's that top line number that it was driving. So you have to have it correlate really, really well saying, "Hey, we spent a hundred percent more, but we actually drove over a hundred [inaudible 00:13:53] more revenue." It's going to make them excited. But the group that's doing the conference call with the shareholders may not understand that and be able to break it out in that much detail, especially if it's a multibillion dollar organization and the website is a small piece of that overall business, which it was at the point we were working with them. It's challenging. So my advice is to try to chip away at certain aspects of it over time, being able to show, "Hey, when we spent more at this level, we got more, it was a direct correlation." And I like to use impression share showing potential like, "Hey, there's a potential there in impression share. We used absolute impression share at the top, which means you're in position one on Google and top impression show, which means you're just above the search results," to kind of give an indicator if there's a room to push. And then I also like to talk about what we refer to an internally as the Halo Effect. I don't think that's an official term, but if it does become an official term, you heard it here first. Paid search, specifically shopping in eCommerce has a large impact on organic traffic and direct traffic. And in fact, if you look in Analytics and you get lost in Attribution, sometimes it's hell, sometimes it's heaven, but you can get lost all over an Attribution. You will find out that the more you spend on Google Shopping, the more your organic traffic increases, the more organic sales you get. And you can look at assisted conversions to see that if you label your campaigns appropriately, you can see generally on non TM shopping campaigns, which is non trademark people, just looking for your product and service, and don't know you as a brand yet for that product or service, you will see assisted conversions generally higher than attributed last click conversions in Google Analytics. And so it's having a disproportionate influence on driving sales through other channels, and it is driving sales to its accredited channel. And so showing them that, showing them, "Hey, this says have a large impact. If you just cut it, you're not just cutting the results that you're seeing from the SEM budget. You're cutting results you're seeing in other channels as well." And so in some companies, this is unfortunate, but if you cut Google Shopping, your SEO team, all of a sudden is going to look worse without them doing anything wrong. They just happen to have the organic traffic drop because of Google Shopping not spending as much money. So it's a very complicated web picture as we continue to shop more and more online, it's only going to get more complicated and intertwined, but at least helping them understand some of that first, even before you get to the, "What are we going to spend," budget. Jon: Yeah. It's almost like we, as an industry, need a one sheet for executives on how to explain this simply for them, because I think there's a so much education that goes into this. And I think half the job of marketing ends up being internal education, which is really just reduces effectiveness. I mean, we fight that all the time with conversion optimization ecomm and marketing teams, they're all a hundred percent on board and understand the return on the spend on optimization. But then you look at a high level executive and they say something like, "Well, but you know, we just had our best month ever. Why would we need to optimize?" Ryan: No, exactly. We're constantly in education mode in what we do. And I actually had this conversation with Google last week because they're really internally pushing for more automation within Google to control a lot of the inner workings of Google, which is not bad for many companies, but they want to move agencies into more of an advisor role and helping companies grow by educating them on digital marketing, which I think is a great goal. I said that, "Well, the problem you're going to experience with that though, is you've got a bunch of, let's just say 24 to 30 year olds in digital marketing that have never owned a business that are trying to educate business owners on growth strategies for their brand. And they probably just don't have the experience to be educating at a high level why these companies should be investing in marketing." And it's scale yet, I just don't think we have the expertise as an industry to be advising people that have grown hundred million dollar brands on how they should continue growing. Jon: And the barrier to entry with marketing roles is typically pretty low, right? Ryan: Yup. Jon: It's something where there is a lot of people in the industry, but there's few experts. And you start doing something like that with all of the junior folks who are just getting into it, and you're going to end up with some big problems. So let me ask you this, Ryan. What are some ad word budget management solutions that kind of help you maybe just prevent yourself from even under spending? Because I think we've determined today, most companies under spend, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because they're not focusing on the right metrics around this, but I know you're talking about a lot of these tool sets that Google's coming out with. I know we've talked about them on this podcast before how I've even been personally kind of put through the ringer by using automation tools through Google. So what are your thoughts just on the AdWords budget management solutions that are out there? Ryan: Generally, I don't like them, but when I'm talking to business owners about controlling budgets, the first thing I tell them is, "Look, you're going to have flexibility, regardless." If you're rigid on your goals, you're either leaving money on the table or you're wasting money. You can't dictate search volume across the entire United States, for example, for your product or service, but what you can do is decide, "Okay, here's what my goals are. Let's make sure that we're at least meeting those. And if we have a little bit more we spent, that's probably okay, as long as we get the goals, if we under spend it's okay, because the search demand wasn't there." Google at its core is a demand capture. People are searching for a product. You put it in front of them because you have that product. There are pieces of Google that can be demand creation, but by and large, it is demand capture. And so build flexibility into your model. But then this is another thing I have to educate a lot of businesses on as well. A big education piece is aligning your marketing goals with your business goals. So often those are not going in the same direction. So you have a marketing team. That's been given a goal and they're rowing in direction to achieve that goal because they have incentives and bonuses in place to hit those goals. And then you have an executive or a business owner that's driving or paddling the boat in a different direction because of their goals. And if they're not aligned, you have a lot of tension and issues because there's going to be frustration from the executive team. "Why isn't marketing giving me the results I want? We set this wonderful goal and they achieved it, but it didn't have the impact I wanted it to." So you start with, what's your business goal? Do you want to grow? Even beyond that, do you have an exit strategy as an owner? Do you have shareholders? You have to hit certain metrics as a business to be successful and make them happy? And then after you've set that you say, "Okay, how can my marketing team utilize the SEM channel to help hit that goal?" And let's set incentives around that rather than what a lot of companies do is well, "We had an agency five years ago tell us that we should be getting it for X or you know, 10 years ago, we were highly profitable on Google Ads. I want to be highly profitable still." And don't pay attention to the changes or evolution of digital marketing over the last decade that has made your 10 X profit goal spending 50 grand a month, not possible at this point, based on what your site's converting at or all these other things you could be doing or should be doing. So it's goal alignment build in flexibility and then monitor it. It's not something you just set it, forget it, let the marketing team just do it. Like I'm in marketing, I have brands, I still daily track everything. It's all about the data. Like I want to know what's happening in my business regularly. I don't let it go on autopilot. Sometimes I want to, but I don't. And just in be involved as a business owner, you have to have an understanding of what it's trying to do. Jon: This is great because I think if I could summarize a little bit of my learnings from the conversation today, it's you shouldn't have a budget, you should have a goal, right? So look at the other end of the spend, not the front end, but the back end. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: And then you really need to work on educating your team internally and the executives, if it's not your money that you're spending, because that way, you're making sure that they understand the return on the investment there. And then from there it's really an inventory challenge perhaps on how much you could spend. And you could really look at this as a cashflow machine. And that's how this should be looked at, perhaps is what's that cashflow equation? How are you getting that money before it's even truly spent? And how can you reinvest that up until you have no inventory left or you have an inventory problem. And then from there, there's no real way to kind of put something on autopilot here. They just don't work that well. You don't want to look at your marketing channels as equal. You really want to play at these different points of the acquisition funnel as you've mentioned. Did I miss anything on that? Ryan: Well, there's a couple of points. I think people should just pay attention to as well. There are circumstances where some companies intentionally lose money on the initial order from a customer. They have high lifetime value, they have a competitive space where it's necessary to even compete. They're going to lose money on the first order, beauty, skincare, that is often the case. Jon: That's still the cashflow formula. You're just stretching it out, right? Ryan: You can't spend unlimited money because it does actually cost you money to get that customer. And so you have to look at, from a finance perspective, how much money do I have in the bank? I can't spend endlessly if I'm losing money on the first order, if I'm breaking even or profitability, you can usually spend endlessly, but then it's also saying, "Okay, what's my diminishing return, and is there a better place for that investment?" Yeah. Diminishing returns is I'm losing money to spend. So maybe I stopped spending here on Google because I know that I can get this money losing return on Facebook or Instagram which is actually better. And so that's where forecasting probably has a bigger impact. And we've had those conversations with businesses about lifetime value. And there's some complex math formulas around it, but it can be done. But then when you're looking at moving budgets, there are some automated tools that brands love looking at. I mean, brands really do love tools that have great graphics and sliding things you can move around and makes it look like you're just doing amazing. And there's one that I really don't like. And it says, "We're looking at your Facebook spend and your Google and Microsoft spend. And if Facebook is at a five X and Google is at a three X, Oh, we're just going to move money from Google over to Facebook and keep spending until they're kind of at equilibrium," because that totally makes sense if you're just looking at math and numbers, but what most brands miss is that those budgets are accomplishing very different things. And so you have to look at them differently and not necessarily move budget from one to the other, just because a return on adspend goal makes sense like, "Oh, I'm printing all this money on Facebook and I may be breaking even on Google." It should be looked at differently. So generally avoid tools that just automatically move budget to the best performing things. Because for most businesses that doesn't make sense. Jon: I think that's a great point to end on today. And I think we've packed so much into 30 minutes here. I really appreciate you as always Ryan educating me on and helping me change my point of view on this, as I definitely came in thinking of SEM as an expense line item and you need to budget and have a forecast around that. And you've definitely shifted my thinking completely around, which is awesome. Ryan: One less business owner to educate. I love it. Jon: Boom. All right. Well hopefully a few other got educated today by listening to this and we'll continue to spread the word. So thank you Ryan. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

Patreon Patreon Contest - Make your own themed jumpstart booster and let us know what you’d put in it! Prize: Chandara Spellbook Ryan - @greenegeek Zack - @z4ck38 Together - @commandersocial   Prize: 2 Jumpstart boosters Twitter contest - Make your own themed jumpstart booster and let us know what you’d put in it! You can find us on Twitter https://www.patreon.com/posts/39284479 We are hosting a Historic Brawl tournament for charity on MtG Arena.  Mike Condon for audio engineering and record cleaning spray Thanks https://store.mothershipatx.com SOCIALSHIP - free shipping on orders of $50 or more SOCIAL10 - 10% off in stock MTG singles spelltable.com https://discord.gg/MMXQJqf Thursday nights come play at mothership! Our LGS has setup an online store! @CommanderReplay @MothershipGames - 0:34, 9:14, 1:45:58 @CommanderFamily - 0:53, 1:46:42 @archidekt - 1:36 @UltraMan7000 - 6:40 @infinitokens - 10:00, 1:26:33 @SaffronOlive - 21:15, 47:05 @commandcast - 23:25 @TheKristenEmily - 24:57, 42:04 @CMDRCentral_Max - 40:44 @CommandSphere - 48:00 @PleasantKenobi - 48:47 @lannyt - 52:55 @MTG_Lexicon - 53:52, 1:13:38 @JakeBossMTG - 56:38 @SheldonMenery - 1:00:54 @UltimateGuard - 1:05:01 @JoshLeeKwai - 1:10:58 @Revelens_Light - 1:30:17 @Marshall_LR - 1:33:34 @neiltyson - 1:40:52 Ep 57 Community Spotlight: PJ give a brief synopsis of what kind of content you create, and why folks should check it out What do we like most about creating content? What do we like least about creating content? Each of us talk about why Ryan - It started as a way to kind of keep a record for my kids (hence the #MtGDad moments every episode). Also, Magic is something I’m very passionate about. Why do we each create content? How much time do we each spend on the content we create each week? PJ Zack - 2ish recording, 2ish editing (4-6 when it’s video), unknown on twitter, various amounts of time for graphic design, various amounts mailing things. 1-hour planning episode with Ryan, 1 hour if writing show notes Ryan - 2ish hours on the night we record, 1 hour planning the show (more if it involves building a deck). 1 hour proofing the show each week. 1 hour uploading the show. There are lots of other various time things as well. Creating content takes time The Magic community is pretty friggin awesome When you create content consistently with another person, you really develop a special bond You get to know a lot of really awesome people, both other content creators, and your listeners/viewers It’s really cool the first time you meet, or interact with someone who you’ve helped make their life better (even if it’s just in some small way) You get to learn...like a LOT. I’ve always been a lifelong learner, and there’s pretty much no end to the stuff you can learn. Audio, video, lighting, web design, how to use social media, technology, woodworking, you name it. What makes creating content worth it? Find a co-host(s) you have chemistry with, who you can trust, who are committed (unless of course you’re doing a 1-person show) Figure out the name. Seriously, take a LOT of time with this. We were almost “Commander Onramp”.(no we weren’t -z) Register the domain, look to see if there is anything else out there, past or present with the same/similar name Get accounts on all of the social media sites, Twitter, Instagram, Gmail account, patreon, Youtube, the sky is the limit here. Also, keep current with new social media things as they come about, and register those accounts. Figure out a schedule you can commit to and BE CONSISTENT we used LogoOrbit, and it can be pretty costly. There are cheaper alternatives out there, fiver, etc etc We placed our initial order for about $150 on April 29th, 2019. We Finished up with them on June 14th, and we must have gone back and forth like 50 times. We think it was worth the time and effort We were willing to spend the time and money on getting a good logo, because this wasn’t our first podcast and we knew we were going to be in it for the long haul. You can always rebrand later, but you definitely want a logo before you ever publish your first episode Get a logo Make your content available EVERYWHERE. We use libsyn to do this. PJ - Anything especially important with YouTube? It will take TIME before you get a regular set of listeners/viewers. Like even more time than you think (probably, I’m sure there are other stories out there about someone becoming an overnight success). Be patient, Be active on social media! It will take a while to get good. Creating content is like any other skill, Playing Guitar, Playing Magic, Sewing, whatever. I know I was SOOOO self-conscious in the beginning. I am, and probably always will be my harshest critic, but you can’t let that stop you if creating content is truly something you want to do. Not every episode will be great. Trust us! However, each episode is likely something you can learn from. If you do this, and constantly strive to get better, you WILL get better over time. Tips for people thinking about starting a podcast/youtube channel Main Topic -Content Creation Creating content is NOT easy, but it CAN be worth it. What are some questions folks out in Audience Land have about creating content? Did you like this episode that was a lot less about playing Magic?  Summary Keep it Social! Komiku - Battle of Pogs https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ Zack Gets it Together Theme Consider becoming a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/commandersocial You can check us out at commandersocial.com YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/CommanderSocial You can email us directly at cast@commandersocial.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/commandersocial On twitter @commandersocial twitch.tv/greenegeek Ryan individually @greenegeek Zack individually @z4ck38 Contact Info © Copyright 2020 Leaky Dinghy, LLC

There are so many folks selling “search engine” services these days. And a lot of that is “snake oil” –– especially when you talk about “search engine optimization” or SEO. And this no doubt bleeds over into the SEM – or “search engine marketing” field too. Today Ryan unpacks just exactly why SEM is so hard to do yourself. For help with your SEM: https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: There are so many folks selling search engine services these days, and that is a lot of snake oil out there. Especially when you start talking about search engine optimization or SEO, this no doubt bleeds over to SEM, or search engine marketing field, as well. The challenge that I see here with SEM is similar to what often happens in my world with conversion rate optimization. There are a ton of free resources out there, checklists, how-to articles, online trainings and certifications, and most of them are too high level and broad to actually be helpful with the e-commerce site. In my view, this really makes SEM very hard to do yourself, especially if you're an e-comm owner. Ryan, today I'm really interested in your thoughts about search engine marketing and why and what makes it so difficult to do it yourself? I really can't wait to get schooled by you once again. Ryan, let's start maybe with what your definition of search engine marketing is. Ryan: It's not complicated, for me. Search engine marketing involves making sure that you are showing up when people are searching for your product or service. As long as there's an intent or a search around that and an active process of putting something in, whether that's voice or typing, texting, it's ... they are searching for it. For me, the biggest ones are obviously Google. Bing, which is now Microsoft Ads. And then I consider Amazon Ads search engine marketing. Yahoo's in there but they usually just get powered by Google and Microsoft Ads themselves. In all of those platforms they are searching for it, and you can design a specific ad in that system to attract that searcher. Jon: That's interesting. I just heard something that brought up an interesting point for me. I've always thought about search engine marketing just being on search engines, but there's so many things out there that are search engines right now. YouTube is the number two search engine. Would you consider showing up in results and marketing around YouTube part of this? Ryan: I guess ancillary, to a degree, yes. It's part of Google. Google owns YouTube and you advertise on YouTube through the Google Ads platform. When you're capturing searches on Google looking for your particular product, you can also have YouTube ads, as far as remarketing. The difference I see on YouTube versus general search engine platforms is that a not a lot of people go to YouTube to find the product to buy. They may be doing some higher level research on looking for reviews. If I'm looking to buy a Bluetooth speaker, my dad just bought one for his neighbor, he had to do some research and figure out which one was going to be easiest because she's 80 years old. You can go on YouTube and find some reviews about ease of use or older people using Bluetooth speakers, and see which one's easiest. It's a research process, more, on YouTube, then it'll be, "I need a Bluetooth speaker now. I'm going to go to YouTube and buy one." Generally that's not how people are trying to transact yet. They can transact with Google or go to the website and buy it, or they go to Amazon and buy from the Amazon platform. Jon: That definitely makes sense. It's ancillary there but it's not the main way you would define it. You're thinking Google, Bing, those type of search engines at this point? Ryan: Yeah. They're actually searching for the product or service. That, for me, is the big key. In the paid realm, it involves a lot of things outside of a search engine. You can pay for display ads that are prospecting, they're not searching for you yet, or you're remarketing through those ads that can happen across the internet. You have social ads where you're marketing to followers of your brand or trying to find new followers and get your products in front of them for them to try, but they're not actively searching for that product. You're trying to get them to search for that product. So search, generally, I see further down the funnel. Jon: Okay. Ryan: [Crosstalk 00:04:18] a cut when people are not searching for it. Jon: That definitely makes sense to me then. I know this is a high level question but it is the topic of the episode today. Let's just dive in. What makes SEM so difficult to do it yourself? Ryan: Jon, that is a great question because it crosses the mind of almost every business owner as they're looking through a [PNL 00:04:38] and see the charge for an agency or an individual that's managing their marketing, like, "Well, why can't I just save this money, put that in my pocket, or develop something else with that extra money monthly or annually?" The real answer is because the search engines are constantly changing. What is currently happening on Google or what you currently see on your phone or your desktop when you do a search, is not the way it's going to look in a couple months, six months down the road. That constant change means that you need somebody or something to keep on top of all of those changes constantly. Just from the Google algorithm of ranking organic results, I think there's 500 to 600 changes every single year to that algorithm alone. If you've been in e-comm long enough, you've seen a huge change around the paid side of things. You had Frugal 12 years ago, 10 years ago, where all of your clicks and shopping were free. Then it changed into PLAs, then the Google officially called it Google Shopping and then there was Smart Shopping. In between those big shifts, there was all these little changes. Constantly new ad sets, new placements. We now have ads that show in Google images. We have Google Shopping showing all over the place and being able to dissect and see which ad types are working versus not working. It's crazy how much development we have to do internally to keep on it, and we have 700 people at the company constantly researching, studying. And then we have that group think kind of thing going on. But that amount of change is astronomical, and I've been in the industry for 10 years. My general thought is, I've been studying to be an expert for over a decade now, and I'm still, by no means, the smartest person in e-comm marketing. There's people like [Frederic Filloux 00:06:19] whose brains are ... I'll probably never catch him, but if you're a business owner or a marketer and you've not been studying specifically how to be the best possible expert in paid search, for example, you're going to beat ... get beat by somebody that's been studying it to survive or as a career path, or because they're super passionate just about paid search. I think understanding that dynamic, it makes it difficult to say, "Oh, yeah, I probably should DIY this to either save some money or because I think I can really do it well." I think about it as, you're going to be in a fight with somebody, because that's kind of what paid search is. It's your money versus theirs, your ad versus theirs, for the consumer at the end of it all. You could be a decent fighter, but if you're not a professional, you're not going to jump into the octagon and try to take on somebody that does this for a living and eat, sleeps, trains, and breathes ultimate fighting. It's not going to happen. Jon: We don't need to get kicked in the face because you have not been training, right? Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Let's break that down then. There's two possible options if you are going to work with an expert. There's the contractor and there's agencies. What's the difference between hiring that really passionate individual versus hiring that agency with 600 employees? Ryan: This is a good one. There are some highly talented contractors in the world. Very, very good. Some of the best people at an agency will go off on their own and take one or two clients and just operate those clients. Nothing bad with it, it happens regularly in our industry. The problem is for the majority of contractors, their life's going to evolve. If you get a contractor, let's say when they're 25, it's just them, they're traveling around, enjoying life, managing a couple of clients. Great lifestyle for them. Let's say they decide to take steps and have a family where maybe income needs to increase. Well, if your company is not providing enough income for them, they need to have more clients. Generally in America, you want your business to increase in value or you want your work to increase or your income to increase. Most contractors are good for a little while and then they want to scale. They want to get bigger. That means they have to also look at acquiring and so they're stepping away from just managing your account and figuring about, "How can I get another account?" or, "How do I insulate myself if this client canceled so that I don't have a huge income hit and starve for a few months until I find another client?" There's always going to be this dynamic with a contractor of growth versus taking care of what they have versus how do they protect themselves or insulate themselves from clients that eventually will cancel? That's part of it. The other part, I would say, is when somebody is doing nothing but working on your account they will know your account intimately, but are they going to be able to see other things coming down the road or learn new techniques from an account that they wouldn't be managing because they're a contractor, but they can learn from the person sitting next to them in an agency? I've seen a lot of group think that's helped. We've, at least at our agency, have repurposed a lot of things that Google intended one way, completely different way, and it worked phenomenally well. For example, this beta, we did one that was intended for the travel industry. They were showing these big, beautiful images when you search this destination. We're like, "Wow, that is just awesome." We didn't have a tremendous dearth of travel clients at the time but we're like, "That's really cool beta." We're like, "I wonder if we could get one of our e-comm clients to show product images in there when somebody searches for a product." So we went to our Google team and was like, "We think this has some validity with this client here. Do you think we can get him in the beta?" They're like, "Let's get him in the beta." Worked phenomenally well. They crushed it. I think they had it for four months and then Google sunset the beta because it didn't actually work as they intended it for travel, but it worked phenomenally well for e-commerce. So we had an eCommerce client using something in a different purpose, that if we didn't have a breadth of clientele, we wouldn't have even heard about that beta and seen that. Also, Google does have some teams that help agencies that they may not be at the same level or even can have the resources to help aid just a contractor. Sometimes it can but most of the time you're going to have additional resources that Google throws at an agency because it scales Google better. Jon: They're more of a partnership there. Ryan: I also worry about the bus. If your contractor gets hit by the bus, what happens? If they're stuck at a hospital, you don't even know because they didn't have to notify their client when they got stuck in the hospital. I like having backups in place. Jon: That's a good point. Ryan, let's dive one step deeper on this then. You were at a small agency previously before you were brought into Logical Position. Now you're with a large agency with over 6,000 clients. What should people be thinking about between a small agency versus a larger agency? Ryan: Having seen both sides, I do have a little bit of a unique perspective. When I was at a small agency, I really liked being small and nimble and being able to pivot. As a CEO of that agency, it was great to have all of these options. If I saw something I wanted, I was like, "Yeah, let's go do that. That sounds like fun." At a larger agency, there may be a little bit more red tape when I want to just go do something. We have to get some people aligned and make sure it's not going to impact other parts of the business. From a client, I get some clients that have said, "No." They don't want to work with us at Logical Position because they don't want to get lost inside a large agency. They want to be more important to the agency that they're working with which, I can see that. As a business owner myself, I'm like, [inaudible 00:11:40] my vendors to care about me and pay attention to me. So some of them are like the big fish, small pond. There's some good things about that. I think most agencies in the U.S. are not as big as us and so most agencies I would consider small. They can be hyper-focused on industries so there's some ability, if you have clients that operate locally ... I know there's a really big agency, actually, that focuses just on flooring. Most flooring contractors and suppliers operate locally and so they're able to just be very, very good at saying, "We know how to market flooring. We're going to do it in Dallas for this company and this company in this area of Dallas," because there's not as much overlap. In the e-comm space, generally we're all competing with everybody in the U.S. for eyeballs, for clicks, and for sales. I personally want the absolute best for my marketing, whether it's big or small. That part becomes, if everything else is equal, I generally like more resources in my vendors. They are more insulated. They're more protected against employee turnover. They're more protected against a power outage and one office can be compensated for in another office. Generally more security measures in place at larger organizations. This is obviously generally speaking. That's just a personal preference of mine. I've seen the difference at a larger organization. That group think is just expounded upon if the agency is run well. We have people dedicated to strategy. We have omnichannel strategy team that our clients don't pay for but they rotate through all of the clients and help their clients understand omnichannel strategies and maybe things they weren't normally thinking about in their paid search conversations that has to do with, "Your social strategy, maybe you need to look at this," or, "Your wholesale or direct to consumer through brick and mortar, maybe we need to talk about this," or, "Here's some partners that we have over here that may be appropriate." I think it's the overall resources we can allocate because of scale, it's pretty impressive. I didn't dislike boutique, but, man, our clients have so many more resources now under the Logical Position banner than they had beforehand. I think our skillset and optimization strategies have evolved at a much quicker pace with all the people involved in hiring new people and new blood to give us fresh eyeballs. We may be doing things one way and somebody else comes in and like, "Well, you could really change this and do it that way." And we're like, "You know what? We never even thought about that because we've been doing it this way for three years." Now we have another set of eyes that's fresh and they're like, "That could be done better." Jon: We've talked about what search engine marketing is. What's the difference between working with a contractor versus doing it yourself versus hiring an agency of different sizes. What if somebody who decides, "I'm not at the point where I can pay somebody for this yet. I need to do search engine marketing to get started. I know it's going to be difficult to do well myself, but I want to set myself up so that I can transition to that agency and get some help down the line," what are some good ideas for how they should get started? What should they be thinking about as they're diving into this? Ryan: I think people starting off, you need to start with the idea that you're entering the marketplace and you haven't been there yet. What I look at is there's been homeostasis across the marketplace as it sits now, and you're going to put a new competitor in there. That's going to have an impact. As the new competitor that doesn't have the data that the other competitors do, whether the other competitors use it or not, it doesn't necessarily matter. They have some data if they want to use it, you're coming in almost blind saying, "I think this is going to work. I want to pay for clicks and traffic to my site." That disruption, you need to probably default to aggressive. Aggression can mean many things in the e-commerce SEM space. When I say it, I'm meaning that you are willing to take less margin-per-order to capture market share and start collecting that data fast. If you're going to compete nationwide, e-commerce in the paid search realm, you're probably not going to compete well by spending 100 or 200 bucks a month. If that's your budget, there's probably better places to put it. I generally say, if you're not going to start with at least 2,500 bucks, I think you could probably do better things with it. This is not a fast and true across all industries, all e-comm period, but as a general rule, do that. Then you also need to commit to it for at least three months. Basically you're looking at 7,500 bucks of marketing to be able to get a good gauge. In a perfect world, you're going to go at least six, but the shortest I would go would be three months to get this data. Jon: What I'm hearing then, Ryan, is if you are going to dive into this, you likely should be looking at spending a decent amount of money. If you're spending that much money though, then it does make sense to have someone manage it. It's like, if you have a lot of finances personally, you should have someone helping you manage that because you can't be looking at it every day, adjusting your investment. That's kind of what's needed here, right, is somebody to help look at that? Ryan: Oh, yeah. In fact, I actually tried to start up a domain called, Search Investors, because I wanted people to see us as investors where you're putting money in, and our job is to make it do what you want it to do. It is complicated. Just like I don't manage my own money, my investments. I don't have the time to dedicate that somebody that knows the investment world and can prepare for ups and downs and get my money doing what it's supposed to do. I'm not even passionate about it. It's like, "Just go make it happen. I'm good at maybe bringing the money in and you're going to be good at making it grow once it's in." Yes, that is part of it, is once you're going to spend 2,500 a month, it does make sense to have somebody that's really, really good at this to give you the best shot at it. If you're going to spend less than that, you can probably get a little more creative. There's some areas you can probably be spending money. One of the great ways to start would, if you wanted to truly spend 500 bucks, put a gun to my head and say, "You have to come up with an idea for 500 bucks a month." I would say, "We're going to go onto Microsoft Ads because the competition is lower there, the search volume is lower. You can maybe test the waters a little easier. The platform itself is a little more difficult to work in, maybe, than Google, but it's still generally the same thing. Track your sales and orders there through that process." Even then, I think 500 bucks a month could be spent more wisely at growing an e-comm brand. Maybe if you also sell on Amazon, Amazon Ads may be better. There could be a better place on social media to be spending 500 bucks on an influencer to drive some sales. Even doing some SEO at 500 bucks a month may be more valuable for your brand than $500 in paid search. Could be. Every situation is different. I don't even do my own ads because I know there's people better than me. I'm fairly good at the ad piece, but I know people that are so much better than me, I'm like, "All right." I'm playing this game to win. I'm not playing it for fun. My businesses aren't ... they are hobbies because I just enjoy them, I'm passionate about business. But at the end of the day, I want my businesses because I believe I'm the best at what I'm doing there, to be the biggest and the best because I'm going to be able to help more people. I use my resources and thoughts saying, "If I'm really good at the marketing piece, I'm going to capture a larger market share, I'm going to have more of the market, and there are going to be more people that know me and are happy with what's going on versus my competitors, which maybe aren't as good as I am." Jon: Within the past year we've had this global pandemic. I'm wondering, how does that change some of what you're thinking about here around these items? Ryan: I think it's even more important to have experts that have lots of data behind what they're doing. We've had global pandemics which are relatively new [inaudible 00:20:01] States, at least since we've been alive. The last big one we had, you can look back at the Spanish Flu of 1918, but there's not a lot of people that have been alive that experienced both that one and then we've had the coronavirus going on. Changes like that, I think, are going to become more common in the online space. It's just going to shake things up and cause people to look at data differently or transact online differently. I think people with more data and more access to it are going to be able to see trends quicker and pivot clients quicker or test more things at the same time. It is, to a degree, another argument for maybe a larger agency, that when you have 6,000 clients that you're talking to monthly that you're seeing what they're doing in the marketplace and you're seeing, "This business owner tried this over here, look at how good that worked. Hey, we've got a bunch of other clients that can now try that or experiment with that in their business." It's almost like CRO across 6,000 clients, to a degree. Not necessarily CRO but you're seeing all these various things happening and all these AB tests going on that we can look at our Google MCC and see, "What is causing that client to go crazy right now? Let's dive into that." It's, I think, more important to have somebody that just understands. As we get more and more experienced with these massive global hiccups, if you will, we're going to know how to react better and better as a society. I think also, generally experts react even quicker to changes. You play a lot of basketball, and when they started shooting more three-pointers in Golden State, they had people that adapted very quickly to that. Then even just a couple of years later, the best basketball players in the planet weren't able to do as much as they could have before against that offense or against the defenses they were setting in place. The experts will evolve the quickest, and now you could probably still go into high school basketball and shoot three-pointers all day and that same exact Golden State offense will work really well at the high school game. Jon: Now it's changing, you have seven-footers shooting three-pointers. Ryan: Oh my gosh. Never would have thought before. Manute Bol when I was a kid [inaudible 00:22:01] shooting three-pointers. Jon: Yeah, I wouldn't have thought that. This has been really insightful. As usual, it comes back to expertise. If you have expertise in this industry, you will do way better than if you're just trying to do it yourself. Getting that expertise on your team is really going to drive the results for you. It's just so hard to know what's out there, what is all that data? It's hard for you, within your own little world of just you and your company, versus having a partner who is seeing this across 6,000 clients and seeing the trends and data. That's really interesting to me. Any final thoughts here, Ryan, before we wrap up? Ryan: I would just say there's very few scenarios in which I'd recommend a business owner or high level marketing executive doing in ... being involved in the minutia of digital marketing. Even if you hire a small agency or large agency or contractor, that time alone can be better spent in other areas. If I come across a business owner that's doing their own marketing on Google, I know there's nothing happening on there. They may log in every day, but you see the changes they're making, it doesn't have anything to do with optimizing the account. Maybe a couple of negative keywords but that time spent working on the business would have way bigger dividends if you'd hired somebody to handle that piece and moved on to that. That's what I try to do in my business is just, "Where could I find people that are smarter than I am?" And it's most often in almost every area. Jon: Yeah. I call that, best and highest use. What is your best and highest use? It's probably not messing around in AdWords or Microsoft ads. It's making sure that you spent the time to find somebody who is an expert to help you, and making that effective. That's a great point. We didn't even talk about the return on investment today. I think that's a really great point that people should be thinking about here. Ryan: Make more money on your time and money. Jon: There we go. Ryan, thank you so much for educating me once again. I've been schooled on what makes search engine marketing difficult, to do it yourself. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

Ryan unpacks the different social media platforms and how you can use them to sell your product. He explains where you should start and then where you can test the waters next. Jon and Ryan also provide an update about what you need to know about the recently released Facebook Shops. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey everybody, just a quick note before we jump into this episode, we recorded this episode on Selling on Social before Facebook Stores was launched, but everything we discussed still applies and is relevant. But stick around until the end, we are going to record an update on selling on social media with some details on Facebook Stores. So enjoy the episode and be sure to stick around towards the end, and you'll get an update. INTRO MUSIC Jon: So Ryan, it's probably a bit maybe cliche to say that everyone is on social media these days, but as a digital marketer, it's true, right? If you're not selling on social media platforms, are you really even trying to succeed? The more I thought about this, the more I thought at The Good we don't do anything around driving traffic, which obviously would include advertising or selling on social media. So I thought, "Why not learn a thing or two from Ryan and your 6,000 clients experience at Logical Position today?" So Ryan, I'm excited to have you, to school me on selling on social. Ryan: Oh man, it's such a big topic and such a big opportunity, I think, that so few brands are capitalizing on, fascinates me. Jon: Well, this will be fun then. So Ryan, let's start with the big picture, when I say social, what channels does that really include? Ryan: I would say when most people say social or selling on social, social advertising, they're most likely referring to Facebook and Instagram, it's the big 800 pound gorilla in the industry. But there are quite a few other platforms that I would probably bucket into that social platform and the advertising and traffic driving that you can execute there. You've got one that a lot of people forget, and it's probably unfortunate there, but Twitter, you can still advertise on there should you want to. Pinterest has some advertising, Snapchat, you can advertise on. LinkedIn is a social channel that a lot of e-commerce companies forget about, there's still some value to be gleaned out of there for e-commerce, but it is pretty lead gen heavy. Jon: Yeah, I love LinkedIn. Ryan: LinkedIn is great for our prospecting and finding just people that talk about it, there's a lot there. And I think it's under utilized for a lot of companies, but it's also, I think, confusing to a degree on how you sell on a business social tool. Do you have any e-comm clients that are doing anything on LinkedIn that you know of? Jon: No, I don't, but I thought that's such a great one that you could run some highly targeted ads on, pretty easily. Ryan: Yeah, if you know who your target market is, and if it's a... Just a conversation with a guy that was selling to doctors today, and I was like, "Well, if you're selling it to doctors and you know that there is a certain role at a doctor's office that always is responsible for finding your product or deciding to buy it, you could target all of those people on LinkedIn very easily." So I think there's opportunity there, I don't think it says much about, on LinkedIn at least, getting click-buy, it's part of the process generally. But with some of the other platforms too, like TikTok, for some reason has just jumped out at me over the last, just two weeks. We've actually had a bunch of clients reach out and say, "Hey, we want to get onto TikTok and do some advertising, how can you help us?" That came out of left field for us, we're like, we know it's there, but we were so focused on Facebook and Instagram with them that we hadn't been pushing for other channels. So, that was on us to a degree, so I think there's some opportunity on TikTok. And then the other one that I think a lot of people maybe think of differently, YouTube has a very strong social component. But it's because it's run through the Google Ads platform, most people don't bucket it under social, but I think there's a component there that, to a degree, could be looked at that way. Jon: Yeah, a lot of people are sharing YouTube videos, right? And it's got a massive comment thread on videos, and they do make social sharing on there easy so that's a good one to think about. Okay, so I had never thought about LinkedIn in the way you're talking about and really hadn't thought about YouTube, so that's really interesting, that's good to hear. And TikTok, I just feel like maybe I'm too old for it, but that's a whole different situation. Ryan: You and me both, that's probably why I didn't have it top of mind. I was like, "TikTok, what are you talking about? That's just Gary Vaynerchuk trying to get people to like his social stuff. Jon: Yeah, but I mean the minute he's talking about it, it's probably the immediate time to jump into it. Okay, so when I'm thinking about selling on social, are we really talking about advertising or actually selling, right? So for instance, I've seen brands that do Instagram Ads, right? And I've seen brands that actually make their posts shoppable, and you can actually complete a transaction on Instagram now. So are we really talking here about advertising or are we talking about actually selling? Ryan: Well, I think it's both. I mean, I like the old adage, always be closing, always be selling. Like if you're an e-comm site, you need to constantly be thinking about how are people going to find me and buy my stuff. And I think if you have the ability, because not everybody can check out on Instagram, or every brand doesn't have that access, let me put it that way, not every site can just flip a switch and automatically be selling on Instagram without leaving the platform. It's still in controlled level, you have to have enough followers or you have to be invited into betas to a degree. But you want to sell as often as possible, and I think having that extra channel, if you can get that conversion on Instagram without them leaving, you do it. But all of them I think you're going to be advertising on, even if you can have the checkout on Instagram rather than your site, you're still going to be advertising to draw people to that checkout or to your page, and constantly try to find new users. And I think Facebook and Google both have a lot of creepy data, it's not a surprise to anyone, and I think Facebook even gets slightly more creepy, but it is phenomenal for marketers. We can upload a list of our clients, and then Facebook's algorithm can go find everybody on the world that looks like your current customers because they're more likely to be buying. If I buy your product and like it, you go find everybody else that has the same demographics as me, whether it's on a farm, has four kids, has too many businesses, there's maybe 10 of us out there. Jon: But all of them will buy. Ryan: But all of them will probably buy your product. So be thinking about both, I think, because of the algorithm. A lot of people forget about this, but the Googles and the Facebooks of the world, the dominant ad platforms, they've created a free platform for everybody and they make money by ads, and so they have an incentive to get people to click ads. And so on Facebook, not everybody that follows your brand, Facebook and Instagram, not everybody that follows you will see your post. And so promoting posts, getting your ads out there, you have to feed the beast, to a degree, and make sure that you're leveraging the ad platform appropriately to get the right content in front of the right people. Jon: Got it, okay. So where do you recommend brands start then? What channels and how would you best utilize those channels if you're just starting out? Ryan: Some of it depends on the size of the organization and the budget to start with. If you're already a $10 million online brand and you hadn't advertised on social, that would surprise me, but it probably exists somewhere. You could probably start a little more aggressively than somebody that hasn't hit their first $100,000 in online revenue yet, but the general rule of thumb that I have for most brands is start with remarketing on Facebook and Instagram. It's all done through the same platform on Facebook, since they own Instagram, and if you're remarketing to people that went to your site and didn't purchase, you'll get a good gauge of what kind of potential Facebook and Instagram have. So if people that went to your site didn't buy, come back and buy through remarking ads at a rate that makes sense for your company and your products, it indicates there's potential for prospecting or finding new users that haven't heard of you yet. But if people, through remarketing, are not coming to your site and buying, it would lead me to hypothesize that finding new users is not going to be the best opportunity for through that social channel, because remarketing generally always works better than prospecting as far as the return on investment. So start there, and also understand that when you move beyond just the remarketing pixel on the remarketing ads, social is not like search, it's not a demand capture. People, for the most part, are not going to a social channel to find a product to purchase, generally you're interrupting their flow of connecting with friends and family or coworkers, and convincing them to click an ad to go outside of that flow to look at a product, it's something they probably hadn't been thinking about before. Jon: Yeah, that's such a great point. You really think about, at least in my business, around conversion, right, it's all about that capture and not the creation portion. And that's a really great point that if you are able to create that demand and then make it easy to do the capture or conversion at that point, then you're really going to see some great return on that ad spend here. Ryan: Yeah, and understand too, that generally as you move up the funnel of purchase, the return on ad spend drops, but I think it becomes more important as you're driving people to your site off of a social channel, to focus on that conversion optimization. You want them to be sticky and you want them to buy then, if at all possible, remove as much friction as humanly possible on social traffic because once they leave, go back to the social platform, you're no longer top of mind, now you're going to be remarketing to bring them back in. So it probably extends the purchase life cycle, if I could say it that way, when they're coming from a social channel. Not always, depends on how impulsive the purchase is, but you just have to generally be watching data very closely on social as you're looking to get sales there. Jon: Okay, so let's say a brand has been successfully selling on social already, what's the next step you would recommend? Ryan: Probably the same as with all of your marketing, it's test, test, test again, test again, test again, and not ever be satisfied with where you're at. You'll be trying out new ad sets, maybe if you haven't done video before, you need to do video, you're going to be testing new platforms. And so this is one where it's easy to get stuck on Facebook and Instagram and assume that that's your social media marketing, that's it, you're done, you've got it covered. But if you take me for example, I don't know how many years ago, maybe... gosh, I'm getting old, but what is it 15 years ago that we started on Facebook, maybe? I don't remember when it came out, but probably a while ago, and I was on Facebook for a while, thought Instagram was really stupid, why would people just not want to read anything, they just want to look at pictures, and then realize, "Oh, Instagram is pretty cool." I no longer really go to Facebook, I am on Instagram because it's easier to scroll through the feed maybe, but I'll go in maybe once a week and check on Facebook. My mom's on Facebook now, she's not that interesting to me to follow on Facebook. She's retired, she sits at home and it's just not as interesting. And so people are going to constantly be moving from platform to platform, I think. And I think as Instagram ages, we'll probably move to something else. People have moved to Snapchat, maybe it's going to be TikTok. Jon: TikTok, there you go. Ryan: Who knows? But you want to be making sure that you're aware of the demographic shifts, maybe the baby boomers start moving on to Instagram in a heavier flow, and all the gen-xers like myself were going to fall off and go somewhere else because we don't want to be hanging out with our parents on social media. Jon: Yeah, this is what's really interesting to me about social media, it's so easy... and I think as an outsider, obviously I'm not printing campaigns, but it's so easy to target different demographics because it's pretty clear what channels they're on. If you want to advertise to the teenager, you're going to advertise on TikTok, that's just generally where they're going to be right now. They're not going to be on Facebook, we know that. But if I want to advertise to Ryan's mom, I'm going to go to Facebook, right? It's just where it is. So yeah, that's something to definitely think about, but what I'm hearing from you is the core tenants of digital marketing apply to social, right? So whether you're doing ads from Google or you're doing ads on Facebook, it's really the same core tenants, it's just a little bit different, perhaps, on the execution. Ryan: Yeah, and the important metrics are going to be a little bit different. So whereas Google's algorithm is fairly advanced, and we have a lot of really quality data around quality score, for example, we know what goes into it, we know what makes up a quality score, and how to manipulate it to get a higher one. Whereas some of that information on Facebook isn't as readily available, and there's more testing and measuring to figure out what is going to work and what's going to be a good click through rate. It may be different for different ad sets, and there's a lot more visual ad types you can create on Facebook than maybe just text ads and shopping ads on Google. Understand it's different, but it's all the same thing, we're always looking at data and deciding what to do based on what the data is telling us. And on their demographic point too, there are young people on Facebook. And so if you do want to target younger people, you just set your targeting for younger people. You may not spend as much as you could on, say, Instagram or on maybe TikTok and be going to teenagers, but there's millions and billions of people on each platform so there's a lot of eyeballs. Jon: So would you recommend then that when a brand is looking to choose a social channel to sell on, that demographics would be their first elimination point? Or I'm hearing from you that, obviously there are, yes I agree, there's younger people on Facebook as well, perhaps, but would you still recommend demographics be that first deciding point where to start at choosing a social channel to sell on? Ryan: That's probably going to vary quite a bit depending on the brand and what you're selling. I mean, almost across the board, I'd probably recommend most companies start for the first time on Facebook, Instagram. It's a mature platform, you really know what to expect out of it, people expect to see ads, click ads and go somewhere else, and get basically their flow interrupted, it's not an uncommon thing to see an ad and click. I mean, I remember one of the best ads on Instagram was somebody that showed me a paddleboard surfboard with a rocket engine on the bottom of it. And I was like, "I didn't even know I needed that until I saw that on Instagram, and now I need to spend $2,000 on that even though I don't have-" Jon: Now you can be lazy during your workout. Ryan: Exactly. So start with what's known, where there is a lot of talent to execute for you, because there's not a lot of people right now that are TikTok marketing experts on the planet. And so if you're going to go off and start on TikTok, it may be much more difficult to get the goals that you want achieved there. Start there and then branch out as you see data, so set the demographics, knowing let's say you're going to target the younger demographic, and so people that are 18 to 24. You start on Facebook, Instagram, set your target demographics there, see how many there are, see how they respond, because you have a lot of... a mature platform is just easier to work on generally, knowing that you probably want to end up on TikTok as well, Snapchat, and expand out of that once you have a baseline to say, "Okay, I know that Facebook, Instagram, I get this return on ad spend, let's see how TikTok actually works for my brand as far as a return." Jon: So, I get asked this question all the time, Ryan, what's a good conversion rate, and people don't like my answer, generally, because- Ryan: Better. Jon: Yeah, one that's improving, right? That's generally how you should be thinking about it. Is there a goal for brands when it comes to selling on social, should we be thinking about specific goals or is there a percentage of a brand's overall revenue you prefer to see coming from selling on social? What are the metrics that you think are most impactful, and are there general standards for those metrics that people should be aiming for? Ryan: Unfortunately, no, it is very similar to the CRO question that it's an improving one, and you've got to look at your brand and who's buying, why they're buying, and where are they buying. So if you sell CNC machines online, you're probably not going to get a lot of direct conversions out of social for that. But it's an awareness thing, you can do some good top of funnel work there, that maybe it's not necessarily the final attribution is coming from social, but it is on the path. And so I think it's only going to get more and more complex as we continue to get more ways to engage with people through different channels, that I would probably never be able to put an exact number on it. But one thing I do like doing, and I do this in my own brands, I keep each marketing team siloed to a degree, so the Google Ads group, the social media group, I generally, personally at least, don't want the same team doing both because I want them both competing for a share of my sales. I want them to say, "Hey, the social should be bigger." Okay, if the same person's running Google and social, they may not care which one's bigger, they just want to push where it's maybe easier. And I think there's always a chance to win on social or win on Google, but I want hungry teams that are going to make that channel work no matter what. And so I would say, I always want it to be more but I also don't want to lose money. Anybody can sell a million dollars through Facebook, but some companies, it might cost you 20 million to sell that one million and so it's not worth it. So you just have to be aware and monitor what's happening and where that social channel fits for your brand. One of my brands, I haven't even gotten it on social advertising yet, I'm still Matt trying to max out Amazon and then I'm going to try to max out Google, and then I'm going to try to push on social. So there's so much you can do that it becomes mind boggling at some point to where you can be pushing a brand. Jon: Awesome. Well, I think we've sufficiently tackled this topic. Do you feel the same? Ryan: I mean, it depends on who's probably asking that question, but I feel like at least we've covered a topic and we've gotten some good insights. Jon: So Ryan, we promised at the start of this episode that we'd provide an update on the just released Facebook Stores, and I'm counting on you to educate me because quite honestly I heard about it, but I did not read anything about it. So can you give us a quick overview of what Facebook Stores is? Ryan: Yeah, so welcome to the world of e-comm, where things change more rapidly than we can produce podcasts, but it means it's fun and things are constantly changing. So Facebook Stores is basically what it sounds like, it is a store for your business on Facebook properties, mainly Facebook and Instagram. Allows people to checkout on the platform, many companies were, at least, aware of the checkout on Instagram feature that was in closed beta for a while, so it's basically all of that rolled into one. Facebook has an entity they're trying to release quickly to help local [inaudible 00:21:06] that maybe never had a website, offer the ability to transact online, at the boiled down version of it. Jon: Okay, and do you think this was in reaction or response to COVID and a lot of retail not being open? Ryan: I think that was the initial thought, but I think it was also quite an opportunity for the Facebook engine to push into e-comm with a lot of people paying attention, and that's a very easy release at that point. Jon: Great, and so it's separate, because I know Instagram is owned by Facebook, but it's separate from, or is it somehow linked to Instagram? I know you could sell on Instagram for some time now, not necessarily in a store, but you can do shoppable posts. Ryan: You can do shoppable posts, but those still take you to your website for transaction. There was that swipe up feature that was very popular, if you get over 10,000 followers, you get automatically put into it if you're a verified Instagrammer. A lot of value to those, we've seen some great data, but this is the next iteration of that, which is you don't have to leave the Instagram platform to transact. Once you've transacted on Facebook or Instagram, they store your data if you want them to so you can easily transact without having to put any data in. So just kind of try to make it as seamless as possible. So a great [inaudible 00:22:26] I believe, but one of the things people are going to realize as they start doing their research is when you have such massive organizations that try to move nimbly and quickly, there's some struggle. So by no means is Facebook Stores just [inaudible 00:22:41] working for everybody as they think it would at this exact moment. In fact, even me personally, my wife and I are trying to get our businesses up on Facebook Stores, like with Shopify a couple days after it came out, did not work. It was not just a click a button, you are going. You've got to have some things in place that will allow your business to work, and so obviously you've got to a Facebook page, so if you don't have [inaudible 00:23:08] out there. If you're going after people that are in the younger [inaudible 00:00:23:14], younger than baby boomers, you should probably have an Instagram profile. You need to have a platform that can easily get products into Shopify, and so this where Facebook and their post called out a few partners in the intro that came out right after Zuckerberg's live thing, where they say, "Hey Shopify, BigCommerce, WooCommerce, ChannelAdvisor, CedCommerce, Cafe24, [inaudible 00:23:44], and Feedonomics can all [inaudible 00:23:46]. I don't think all those integrations are perfect yet, and I've tested on some Shopify sites where you can add the Facebook Commerce Manager, get the Facebook shopping plugin, the Instagram shopping plugin and it's be live [inaudible 00:23:59] not perfect. So I think that most businesses have to realize going into this is, if you've never been online before [inaudible 00:24:08] to accomplish that you've ever done. If I'm seeing articles and blogs from people, the e-comm experts not being able to do this, the switch, just with their knowledge, then I would say at least test measures and things, test [inaudible 00:24:22] things. If you get stuck, there are going to be a lot of blog articles, there are going to be a lot of help things within Facebook trying to solve these problems, but you're going to need some patience for sure. Jon: So Ryan, knowing all of that, how does one get access to Facebook Stores? Ryan: You need to go in and set up Commerce Manager, and so that's step one, like a great digital marketer that I am, I just go Google, Facebook Commerce Manager and find it. It wasn't as simple for me to find inside the Facebook platform, you also want to have a site like a Shopify, BigCommerce that already has a plugin for it, so you may need a plugin on that. Our Shopify site, we had to put a plugin on the site to get to send inventory over to Facebook, you've got to have something sending those product details over, along with inventory, what's available. Every business that has a Facebook page should be able to do Facebook Stores, but that doesn't automatically open up Instagram Stores, or so we're finding. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so you need to do some research on your own and see your business is able to do certain things. There were some articles that my wife came across that said, "Okay, if you try to do an Instagram Store, you can't do a Facebook Store and vice versa." I don't think that article is necessarily true, but the Instagram Stores or the Instagram checkout is still closed beta if you go to that page on Instagram. Jon: Okay. So, we should state that there's a lot in flux here, right? And we're doing our best to get this information out quickly, but things are changing rapidly is what I'm hearing from you as well. Ryan: For sure. So we're recording this today, and people are going to get access to it probably in a week and there's going to be constant change until we get to a homeostasis in the Facebook Stores environment, and so we'll probably have to do an update a little bit later. But as of now, just know that there's a lot of moving pieces at this point, and if you're on a platform that doesn't have an integration already built into Facebook, it's going to be much more difficult for you to get that thing set up. Jon: Okay, so what does Facebook cost? I assume they're not doing this for free. Ryan: It'd be nice if everything was free, but unfortunately Facebook is a business, and they have an obligation to shareholders to make money, nothing wrong with that, they do provide a service for free for people getting their own profiles. But as of now, they are charging 5% per transaction, now that is great in some areas, it does say that includes taxes and processing fees. And so that could be good, but I do have some struggle with that because if your business already has nexus in Washington, for example, you need to be collecting all of the sales taxes in Washington, which add up quickly. If you sell in Seattle, you're getting charged almost 10% sales tax up there, that that 5% just can't cover taxes. So that's how I know a lot of this is going to be changing and updating, because I'm not sure that it built out everything for tax collection perfectly. Because when you jump into e-comm and you have stores like mine and they sell on Amazon, their website, retail storefronts, I mean there is so many potentials for tax nexus they had to be collecting that Facebook sells a unit there, I'm on the hook actually as a merchant for that. And so that's where stores need to be aware that that's there. If Facebook doesn't collect the tax, nothing on them, I mean, they're not coming to Facebook for that, they're coming to the person that actually sold that product on Facebook for the tax. Jon: Right. So definitely something to keep track of, and I think we both know in e-comm, and there's whole companies dedicated to just helping you figure out your commerce tax situation. And it's down to the street level at times, local taxes and sometimes stuff like that. Ryan: Yeah, good luck in California, it's just not going to happen. Jon: So since this was released, and it is in beta as we were kind of talking about, what do you think is still being worked out with Facebook and their Stores platform? Ryan: Some of it, I think, is going to be that cost, like they want to have something that works and keeps it simple. But as of yet, I haven't seen how you can simplify commerce to a flat rate for everybody in every possible scenario. So I do think that's going to adjust somehow, and Facebook is potentially opening up for a local store that's never had a website, to sell across Facebook, which is a massive opportunity, but also adds in massive complexities to a small local business that [inaudible 00:29:10] had to consider before. Especially if you're in Oregon, where we don't have sales tax, that's just kind of a foreign thought to us that, "Hey, I can go anywhere I want, I buy something and whatever it says on the tag, I actually pay versus not having to worry about tax." Whereas I go to Washington, there's all kinds of taxes added on that as an Oregonian I'm just not thinking through. So an Oregon business, you have to be aware that most of the country charges sales tax, and if that collection's not there, how do you do it? And maybe Facebook has taken some liability in some of their fine print saying, "Hey, we're going to charge 5%, and we'll make it right, some how, some way." I don't necessarily think that Facebook shareholders [inaudible 00:29:50] too keen on that. Jon: Yeah, not for permanent, right? But I could see them doing that upfront to get users and to kind of buy their way in. Ryan: Yeah because it would be great if you could simplify processing and taxes into just one number to [inaudible 00:30:05]. You're just taking 5% and I'm done, that would be huge, and I think a great opportunity. Jon: I have to think, yes, we're in Oregon, so not really up on every other State sales tax, but I have to think that there's some States that have more than a 5% sales tax, right? So even just then, they would be losing on processing or any of the over right away. Ryan: Yeah, and it could be maybe they're pulling that from their small business fund that they talked about, where they say, "Hey, we're going to release a 100 million to small businesses." And so instead of giving them ad credits, they're just going to use some of that to collect the data. Because I think some of it Facebook needs is that data, because they've not done enough online commerce to actually have the data to know this is what it is and here's where things can go bad. Unless they hired some high up people at Amazon that have all this data that they could pull with them, I doubt it. Jon: Yeah. Well we all know that, and this perhaps is for a whole nother podcast, but we all know Facebook loves their data, so they'll get it one way or another. So is there anything we didn't talk about, you thought I should have asked you about Facebook Stores today? Ryan: I don't think so, I think as a business there's very little reason not to get into this channel and test it. Every business is going to have a different level of success with it, but if you're going to open up a massive channel, I think there's more risk to not exploring it than there is to explore it and put some of you inventory there and see what happens. I mean, I'm going to get all of my businesses on there that I can to say, "Hey, I want to be available where people are trying to transact." And if Facebook is successful at creating an e-commerce platform to rival the Amazon's or Google Shopping's, then I for sure want to be an early adopter into that system so I can get as much data as I can get to make smart decisions for myself and any of our clients. So I would say, get in, take some risk, take the time to study it, and just see how you can make it work for your business and your specific situation. Jon: Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, there's still millions and millions of people on Facebook, so it's a massive audience, right, and you might as well try to throw your store up there and see what happens. So, okay, great. Well, this is really helpful and I think it's a great add on, as we said, things are going to change rapidly with this, but hopefully this gets people started. They know where to look now, they have some understanding of what it's going to cost them, and why they should do it, and I think that's a great add onto this episode. So thank you, Ryan, again. And I look forward to doing an updated show in the future as things settle down with Stores. Ryan: Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks, Jon.

Jon explores the nuances of CRO and explains why it can be so difficult to take a DIY approach with it. He also offers a few tips for those just starting out to improve your CRO without spending a whole lot. [The Mom Test book]: (https://www.amazon.com/Mom-Test-customers-business-everyone/dp/1492180742/ref=sr11) For more CRO help visit The Good: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Hello, Jon. Jon: Hey, Ryan. How are you today? Ryan: I am doing well. Excited to get educated today by you, on some areas that I have very little knowledge. It's exciting, the world of CRO. When you see the results on my side... I get to see the results of what you do, but I don't conceptually understand it well. So today, I really wanted to dive into the weeds with you about conversion rate optimization, and help our listeners get a better understanding of just what you're going to need to do to help execute some CRO. And then, as we live in this DIY world... I can't tell you how many Pinterest things I see, or YouTube things I see, that I try to execute, and it just, God, doesn't quite turn out the way I want to. Especially when I'm cooking, all the recipes I find on Pinterest, just man, the pictures look so great and then my finished product is not great. Ryan: I own a few businesses. Logical Position does a lot of advising on best practices in improving conversion rates, but I wouldn't call what I do on my own sites or what we do at LP to kind of advise clients as conversion rate optimization. So from your perspective, as an expert in CRO, isn't it easy to just watch a YouTube video or find a Pinterest article on CRO and just do something and watch the conversion rate on your site increase? Jon: Well, I think that, just like anything else, right... Like you mentioned Pinterest or YouTube videos, how many times did you watch these videos and it had not turn out like you had wanted, right? Ryan: Yeah, most of the time. Jon: Yeah. I think, it's probably not too dissimilar. Now, look, there's a lot that somebody can do on their own to help improve their conversion rates. Is that technically and truly full conversion rate optimization? No, of course not. But there's a lot that people can do out there, and should be doing, and should be thinking about. I think that... Look, is it easy to do everything yourself? No. Could you focus on one or two areas and do very well? Yeah, maybe. Jon: But I think the biggest challenge I have, is we see this all the time at The Good. People come to us and they say, "Hey, I have one staff member I hired who's a conversion optimization specialist, but it's just not moving the needle in the way that I would like. We're not seeing the return on that salary spend or that contractor spend." The problem is that, and we've proven this out over 11 years now, you really need to have a team with a whole bunch of specialists, and it's impossible for one person to be expert in all of the areas that you need for conversion optimization. Ryan: What I'm kind of understanding is there is a conceptual difference between CRO, or conversion rate optimization, and, maybe what I would call CRI, conversion rate improvement. They're not necessarily the same thing. I can [inaudible 00:03:21] can change a button and improve our conversion rate, but that's not actually conversion rate optimization. Jon: I think we just came up with a new term and I love it, CRI versus CRO. That's awesome. Thank you, Ryan. Okay. Yes. Now, here's how you can do improvements, go out and get these tool sets that all talk about doing an optimization or improving your conversion rate. There's tools out there that can help improve your conversion rate, but they're not going to get to the level that a customized program with a team of experts can do for you. So you think about all those tools like Privy, or there's Hotjar, or Crazy Egg, or... I could go on and on, right? There's tons of these tools out there that each provide a little nugget of conversion rate improvement, but they're not truly doing full optimization, right? Jon: If you're really going to optimize anything, it needs to be a scientific process of optimization. It's not just a make these changes and you're done. It needs to be the ongoing iterative improvements where you're making incremental gains, month over month, that compound and grow. That's where the big numbers are going to happen and the massive results are. I mean, you look at this and maybe this might feel daunting to the entrepreneur who's doing a $100,000 on their site right now. But Amazon has a team, a massive team. Last I heard, it was well over a hundred, doing nothing but optimizing the Amazon experience. Ryan: Holy smokes. Jon: So you think about that, and you're like, "Man, I'm at a huge disadvantage here." But the reality is, they're looking at every little data point. That team has a wide range of people doing different items, you have data scientists to analyze all the data coming back. You have test developers to build out all the tests. You have conversion strategists who can help you to better understand what should be tested. You have experts in user testing, those people who speak to your consumers and understand how to get information out of their heads about what they're thinking. Jon: So you have all of these other types of roles that exist that can combine, be like the Avengers, right? But individually, if you just have the Hulk out there or... I'm not a huge comic book guy. Maybe I'm mixing up my worlds here. But, I would say individually, they're not going to be as great as they would be all together. Ryan: Interesting. So almost in putting it in terms I can quickly relate to would be PPC optimization. You can know conceptually that I really do need to be putting negative keywords into my account to eliminate some waste, but there's a lot more to that, and there's a lot more specialist in the die that I operate in so often. But also, as I'm looking at all the accounts we work in, the way we operate is very different on somebody that sells $50,000 CNC machines versus a five-dollar mug on their website. Jon: Exactly. We talked about this a little bit at one of our recent episodes, where I was interviewing you and I admitted to how I had a button checked in our ads account and it cost me $2,000 that I didn't need to spend. Ryan: That was a fun one. Jon: Right. But here's the thing, I thought I was doing the right thing by letting Google manage that. And it just kept bidding me up, bidding me up, bidding me up until I spent all this money. Where an expert who's in it every day would know, "Hey, on the surface level, I get why you would want Google to own that and optimize that for you. But the reality here, is there's a much better path ahead if you have experience here." I think that's where it really comes in, is having that experience and it means that you can rely on the tool, right, and you could just have a whole bunch of tools. The challenge is going to be, that you're not going to see the gains that you would if you work with somebody who does nothing but optimization and has a team centered around that. Jon: Think of it this way. I spent 2,000 extra dollars I didn't need to spend because I misused the tool, right? I could have spent that $2,000 with an expert who maybe could have generated me an extra $5,000. That would have been a massive return on my investment, by making the investment there, as opposed to clicking a button that I was trying to take the cheap way out, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I guess, in the e-commerce space, we have some very major players like Amazon, a hundred people or more on their conversion rate optimization team. Shopify has a million businesses utilizing their platform. And I assume, again that's an assumption so nobody quote me, but I assume they have an internal CRO team to a degree, because the more conversions they get, the more people use Shopify and the more money they make on the payment processing. Ryan: So with all of these major platforms having so much influence, do you ever think it's possible that we fast forward five years and all of us just are so trained in Amazon and clicking this to get this, or Shopify clicking this to get this, that it's almost standard like across e-com. Like checkout, I expect this, I do this, and there's very little optimization beyond that. Jon: I hope that we get to that point, I don't think we will. Now, here's why I hope, because... I've mentioned this book a hundred times, that's called Don't Make Me Think, right? The whole premise is that we have conventions as internet users that we've become akin to that we know and we like, and it makes the internet easier to use if everybody follows those conventions, so I don't have to think about it, right? Anytime you change that convention, you're making the user of your site think. And that delays them converting. It makes them frustrated. They bounce. They leave. They desert, whatever you want to call it. Jon: I hope we get to the point where there's a standard here, but I can promise you we never will. Now, here's why, they can standardize things like checkout, right? Shopify has done a wonderful job with this and this is where their optimization team internally would come in, where they are optimizing the checkout experience. However, if you go to a Shopify site and they have a custom theme and it's branded, you wouldn't even know it's on Shopify until you got to that checkout and then you know it's a Shopify checkout, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: And here's the thing... So there is so much to optimize beyond that. We're never in on the internet. And I hope we get to the point where things are standardized, but I never hope we get to the point where the internet just becomes this big gray area of everything being the same. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: Then it's not going to be cool. We're taking the branding out of the internet, which is part of what makes it really fun, is to go to a brand's website and get a feel for that brand, have an understanding of what their value proposition is. I hope we don't get to something where every website is just black text on white screen, with blue links, and the navs all look exactly the same, et cetera. I do think it's important that some things are standardized and some usability aspects of websites are standardized. I think that's important and we're making strides to that, but there's always going to be that brand pool. And it's going to be a push against that standard experience that makes people think a little bit. Jon: I really don't know how the experience, if you will, is going to be that much better over time. But I do think, if you're a small shop and you're using a BigCommerce or a Shopify, yes, use their default checkouts because they're pretty good. But you're going to get to a point where you're noticing some checkout cart abandonment, and you want to improve those metrics. And at that point, you're going to want to start to optimize those a little bit. That's when you move up to something like Shopify Plus, where you're paying a little more every month, but you get the ability to customize your checkout. And then you can start adding in some additional tools, you can start looking at moving some fields around, asking for less information if you're not using it or don't need it. Jon: And then on BigCommerce, one of the big things about BigCommerce is the customization that you can do with the platform. So their checkout, out of the box, if you're a BigCommerce subscriber, you can alter that, which is great. It gives you a rope to kind of hurt yourself with a little bit there. But in time, it can... If you're a smaller brand, you want to start using some of these tools, you have that capability. Ryan: For some of those bigger companies on BigCommerce, you can use something like a Bolt that is really focused on one thing only, and that's streamlining that process. Jon: I'm glad you brought up Bolt, because that's a great example of how they can take something that we just spent five minutes discussing as a standardized experience, and they've made it better. That's a great example, where there's always going to be room for improvement. How bolt has even done that, is they focused on reducing risk, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So you're able to ask less information of the consumer, than you would on the standard Shopify checkout. That means you're going to convert higher, but you don't have to eat the risk of the fraudulent transactions as part of that, right? So you have options. And I think that there's always going to be room for improvement, I really do. Ryan: Well, I think it's also at this exact juncture to remind people, as I constantly had to be reminded, that conversion rate optimization is not checkout optimization. There is every step before, and I think this was a couple episodes ago, and a couple of steps after the fact of checkout, that conversion rate optimization plays. Jon: Yeah. [Crosstalk 00:13:39]... Ryan: So, often we as e-com companies and business owners focus, "Oh, I got to get people to check out, and then it's done." [inaudible 00:13:45] is over. But there's that huge process. Jon: Right. Yeah. We've talked about this a few times where... What happens when somebody gets to your site? What's their intention when they're there? All the way through what happens after they check out, how do you optimize post purchase checkout? And I think there's so much that can be done there. Again, very likely that it will never end in opportunities for optimization here. Ryan: Not every company is in a position to be able to start the full CRO agency or hire enough people to fully optimize their entire funnel of conversion, before and after giving the business money. Are there certain areas of CRO, outside of maybe just getting a Privy or a Hotjar or any of those other tools, that they can be doing something that would get them going towards official CRO? Like you've got to be able to grow the brand into a size to be able to afford a CRO agency or employees. So outside of just the tools, what... Is there AB test they can be doing? I mean, what does that look like for the e-commerce business owner doing a hundred thousand a year? Jon: Well, I think that most likely, you're not going to want to even dive as deep as doing something like AB testing, because you don't have enough traffic to prove those out, it's not going to be a good return on your time or funds investment. Jon: Now, what I would recommend here is two-fold. One, start tracking some data. This is not complicated, but it will help you later just to have more timeline of data. Go into Google Analytics, turn on things like enhanced e-commerce, set up some additional dashboards. Just Google e-commerce analytics dashboards, you'll find a bunch of great ways to set that up so you start tracking some good data, okay? There's a easy checklist to follow there. Jon: Now, other thing is start tracking user engagement. How do I mean that? Well, go sign up for Hotjar, it's $9, right, per month. Just sign up, go, and what you can do is you can start understanding how people are engaging with the content of your site. And I promise you, if you just spend one hour a week reviewing that data, you will learn where challenges are on your site, with things that you think you can do yourself that will improve conversion rates. Jon: Are you going to see massive gains? No, but I think if you're in the situation where you have more time than you have money, as you're growing your business and you're starting out, spending that hour to better understand your consumers yourself will help you find a better product-market fit, it will help you to improve your website overall. And as you continue to grow, you're already building that culture within yourself and your company with your team, as it grows, of understanding how consumers use your website and what data you should be looking at. Jon: If you just go out and you start talking to consumers, take a laptop, go to your local mall, or, I don't care, bar, doesn't really matter. Wherever your consumers hang out, right? Go to the coffee shop. Sit at the Starbucks and just say, "Hey, can I buy you a coffee, if you give me five minutes of your time, while they make your coffee. You're just going to be standing there anyways. I'll buy you a coffee. While they make it, I want you to use my website. I'm going to ask you to complete a task, and I'm just going to watch you do that. I just want you to tell me what you're thinking as you go through those steps." You will be amazed at what you learn. And all it takes is five, 10 minutes of someone's time and the cost of a coffee. So anybody of any size can do this. Jon: Now, you don't have to just be there all day, either. Do this for a couple hours. Get under 10 participants, and I promise you, you will walk away with a laundry list of improvements that you can make to your website. So if you don't- Ryan: It's almost like gorilla marketing in its purest form. Like, "You've never heard of my business before, I'm going to buy you a coffee and you're going to see it." Jon: Yeah. You're not trying to sell them anything, right? You're just trying to understand how they're using your website so that you can take that data and improve. The idea here is that you're getting an understanding of somebody who is a new to file customer, somebody who's never been to your website before. You're walking away with an understanding of what their first impressions of your site and the experience on your site. So the navigation, the funnel, how they find the right products, what they think of the content, right? All of those things are what you're looking for. You're not necessarily saying, "Hey, I want to introduce you to my business, so you buy something," because then they're not going to really have a great understanding. Jon: Now, there's an amazing book out there. It's called The Mom Test. You can get it on Amazon. It's 20 bucks or something. It's amazing. The Mom Test, we'll have our producer put it in the show notes. The Mom Test, it's got a pink cover, it looks like it's a not really helpful book, but I will promise you that it is amazing. The whole thing about this book, is that it gives you an outline of how to ask the right questions about your product and your website to get customer feedback, so that you're not asking them leading questions, that they're only going to give you positive feedback. Jon: So why is it called The Mom Test? Because this should be questions that you can ask your mom where you're going to get good feedback, not where you're going to get the mom feedback of, "Oh, honey, that website is awesome. Yeah, of course it's beautiful, you built it. This is the most usable website I've ever had." No. You want somebody, even your mom, to give you the best feedback about how to improve your product and what they actually think. That's where it gets important. So asking the right question is really the key here, but that's something that 150 page book can teach you, and you're not going to be expert right away. But again, going back to where we started this conversation, that is just one small item that you need to learn and master out of the whole range of conversion optimization. That's why it gets really hard to do CRO versus CRI. Ryan: We have to trademark that. Nobody think. I want to go back, really quick though, to a point you made about traffic being too low for CRO, because I know you have this conversation constantly. And then I get to talk to some of these people because their traffic's too low for CRO. But it crosses the minds of most business owners, as they're starting up, "Hey, I'm getting traffic to my site. And it's converting at," I'm going to make it up "1%. If I just made that go from 1% to 2%, I would double my revenue and I didn't even have to work on increasing traffic, which may be is a struggle for me or I've got really big competitors." Ryan: All that is true, but sometimes that time and energy should probably be spent more on getting, maybe, more appropriate traffic or figuring out what traffic is coming and is not converting. But how do you have that conversation on the front end? Because I usually get it from you, at least, after you've already had some kind of conversation around, you just need more traffic. What insights would you give to people in that scenario? Jon: Well, I think, there's a couple of things you have to really consider before you're going to deep dive into optimization. The first is, have you found product-market fit, right? So is anybody, A, interested in your product and, B, are they going to buy it because it's solving a pain they actually have? It's one thing to get people to your site, but if the product isn't really hitting with the market, then you are going to waste your money. You can optimize and have the best funnel and the best site ever, but if it's really just not something people want or need, then you've wasted your money, right? So that's the first thing. Jon: Now, a great way to determine that and the way that I usually determine it, because it's really quick and it's something most people know if they're running or managing an e-com site, is number of unique monthly users to your site. Because here's the thing, if you've generated enough traffic, that means people are interested. And if you're able to drive traffic with ads, where you're spending at a sustainable level, that means people have a pain point and they're actually willing to click on an ad to solve that pain. That kind of proves it out, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Now, what's that level? I generally want to see about 50,000 unique users per month before you're going to start doing true optimization. That's actually a pretty low number. It might feel like a mountain for some people, but if you've gotten to 50,000 per month... I mean, think about that, that's 12,500 per week, it's really not that many, right? Jon: The idea here is that you are able to drive enough people to your site, that you can start making scientifically-backed decisions. That's really where you're going to find those gains because you're no longer relying on what you think is best, or those 10 people you interviewed at Starbucks. Now, you're starting to get in mass enough data that you can prove stuff out to where it's statistically relevant. Ryan: That's a great insight, I think, on just a number, but also, I think, on market fit. I talked to so many startup businesses throughout the course of my day, weeks, months, but so many entrepreneurs come up with a really cool product that they just love, but unfortunately they have no idea who their market is or who they really think is going to buy. They have an idea like, "Oh, I really thought this company was going to buy it." But if you've created a product that hasn't existed before, nobody's searching for it. Or they're maybe searching for a problem, but getting a shopping ad to show appropriately, that image may not solve or cause them to take that click. So it becomes a much deeper conversation of, what are you going to do to get this into market? Not necessarily start by optimizing your site. It's, you've got to really find that fit, whether you go to social, whether you go to Google for that, whether you go to retail for that. Jon: Yep. That's exactly it. Conversion optimization is usually step two, right? So first step is... I would say step zero, is find product-market fit, right? Then step one is drive traffic. Then step two is, once you've proven those out, you want to start getting a higher ROAS or return on ad spend. At that point, that's when conversion optimization can help get you to that next level. And I say this all the time, Ryan, when... Jon: We have dozens of clients that share both Logical Position and The Good as partners and vendors. What we find, and I say this all the time, is when you have a company like LP that can really drive qualified traffic and you have a company like The Good that can help you convert that traffic at a high level, it is like adding fuel to a fire because it just accelerates things. And it really starts to show that you can start making a living off of your website, or take it to that next level that you never thought was possible. Jon: That's really where the gains can come in is, at that level, after you found product-market fit, you're driving some traffic, now you really want to take it to the next level. And then it becomes this great circle of, "Hey, you got your conversion rate up. Now, you have more money to spend on driving more traffic. And then you take that funds from the sales you're getting there, you reinvest it in additional optimization." You just keep going in that circle and it continues to compound that growth over time. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It makes entrepreneurs, startups, even existing business owners nervous when you start talking about paying for traffic, but the value there, even if you're doing that to get to the point where you can use CRO, is you get the insight into the intent of that visitor. If you're just focusing on organic traffic, that's great by the way. We've already mentioned in this podcast before, there is no such thing as free traffic. You're going to pay for all of it in time, money, energy. But when you're using Google Analytics, you don't get the insight of what did they actually search when they came to my site, when they came through an organic link, or they came direct to my site. I don't know how they got... I don't know why they got my link, or they knew my website. Ryan: But if they're using paid search, you get all this really cool data of saying, "Hey, they searched specifically for this, clicked on my ad, went exactly to this page where I sent them, and they either took the action I wanted or didn't." So I can get a lot more of those insights. And you can even get... If you are paying for it, because obviously Google is a for-profit organization, if you do pay for clicks on Google Ads, you can use Google search console to connect Google Analytics and Google Ads, and you will actually get the search queries on your organic traffic, and see how that is operating and what that search intent is, and where you're ranking. That'll actually give you real average ranking for an organic query. Phenomenal data. But again, you have to pay for it by utilizing the Google Ads platform. Ryan: So some business owners out there that are listening, you do have to take the leap and actually pay for some traffic to get some of these insights that let you figure out where your market fit may be or may not be. And it becomes exciting, but also challenging. And so I will put an asterisk by that, that Google does have a great product for starting up and getting your business going. A lot of their smart campaigns, smart shopping can be very powerful to get a business up and running on Google shopping, unfortunately, you don't get that search query data. That becomes problematic when you're really trying to figure out your intent or what you're actually showing for on Google that is becoming so valuable and why your business is growing. So just be aware of that, that you may actually have to do some more manual work in there, but, man, there's a lot of opportunity. Jon: I didn't even know about that one. So now, I don't have to get the... What is that message that shows up in Google Analytics now? It always says something about like not found or... Ryan: Not provided. Jon: Thank you. Yeah. Ryan: That came about 10 years ago. It was great for Google because you're forcing people to pay for it, I get it. That data does exist though, you just have to pay. Jon: Yep. Well, that's good to know. Ryan, this has been a great conversation. Are there any other questions that I can answer for you on how to do CRO DIY? Ryan: No, I've just got to go get some things on my website so I can get to the level that I can pay you to take my CRO to the next level. Jon: Well, I know you and I know you've already found product-market fit on all of these, so drive that traffic, which you're expert at, and then I can come back and help you convert, and we can go from there. Ryan: Yeah. Thanks for enlightening me and helping me figure out some of these details of CRO that I didn't know, so that I'm not just doing CRI all the time. Jon: Go trademark that right away. Ryan: Thanks, Jon. Jon: Thanks, Ryan.

Recap of The Bachelor Presents: Listen To Your Heart (Season 1, Episode Five) Do the reappearance of Ralph and the arrival of Train (finally!) cancel each other out? These are the important questions on the minds of The Bros after this epic Las Vegas adventure! Other questions we explore: Is it possible that Natascha really did/does have feelings for Ryan??? (It would seem so!) Is Matt actually the only level headed contestant on the show? (YES!) Was it necessary to spend so much time on those busses to Vegas? (Nope.) How are Jamie and Trevor still on this show? (???) Will Rudi and Matt make it? (We sure hope so!) Could there have been a more awkward wedding than Chris and Bri's date? (Maybe... but probably not.) Come explore the answers with us! All of this and so much more on this episode of Bros Before Rose!  And, as always, join us on Friday, for our Bros Before Rose: Group Date episode of the week where we focus on all of you... our community! (See, it's like a group date because we're spending time interacting with all of you!) This is where we'll be reading your emails, responding to your social media posts and talking about the Bros community!  Leave iTunes Reviews, subscribe and more!!! Bros Before Rose Twitter :: @BrosBeforeRose // Instagram :: @brosbeforeroseofficial // Facebook :: facebook.com/brosbeforerose // Website :: www.brosbeforerose.com Matt Barnes Twitter :: @matthewbarnes // Instagram :: @matthewbarnes Jeff Bachman Twitter :: @drbackpack // Instagram :: @jbachman SPONSORED BY: The Road Trip Games App Bachmanville Photography ©2020 Rogue Creative Development LLC - All Rights Reserved

Ryan explores whether you should or shouldn’t use PPC automation tools to assist you in your paid search efforts. The answer isn’t so simple. For all your PPC needs check out: https://www.logicalposition.com/ What's covered today: What is PPC Automation? Should we use it? What are the benefits to Automation tools? What are the drawbacks to Automation tools? TRANSCRIPT Jon: All right, Ryan. Today we're going to talk about PPC automation, or pay-per-click automation. Now Ryan, I've been hearing a lot about pay-per-click automation tools. Now, this is mainly with brands who are doing one of two things. I see it when they're either trying to save a dollar by not working with an agency, and they think, "Hey, automation can help me do all of these things that my pay-per-click agency is doing for me." Or, they're just trying to scale their traffic up extremely quickly, and they see automation as the holy grail of them being able to do that. So, I'm really excited to learn about this, because I keep hearing about it, but I don't know much about it, and so I'm happy to have an expert to discuss this with. So let's just start by defining what PPC automation is exactly. Ryan: It's a big topic, and PPC automation can mean so many different things to different people. But high level, it generally means not touching certain pieces of an account, and having some type of computer system make decisions for you, within the Google or Microsoft Ads space, and it's even going into the social world as well. But basically, something gets done without a human touching it. Whatever that looks like, it's from high level computers. Jon: So, it's not an all or nothing. Because I was just looking at this as an all or nothing, like you're either using automation to run your PPC, or you're not. But you're telling me that just having some automation built in can actually be beneficial, as opposed to just going full automation. Ryan: Yeah. And there's different thoughts on that, just like everything online, even in CRO, I'm sure that it has to do with... Everybody's got an opinion, and it's different than everybody else's, on what works or what doesn't. It's based on their experiences or what they've seen, or what they've been told. And so, you've got extremes, where Google Smart Campaigns are an automation in Google Shopping, that will literally do everything. All you do is give it a budget, and what your return on ad spend wants to be, and it goes and does that. If it can be accomplished in the system, it will do it. If your return on ad spend goal was too high, for example, it's just going to sit there, and not really spend any money. If it's really low, it's going to spend a lot more money, and get you a lot more clients because the potential's there. Jon: So you're telling me automation can't solve all of my hopes and dreams. Ryan: I wish it could. There's some people that will promise you that, for sure, but if anybody is telling you that, they are lying, or they have an ulterior motive in place for you and your business. And on the other side, there are ways to use automation that help but don't necessarily do even the work in place of a human doing the work. And, as with most things, and my most common answer, which is also my least favorite answer in questions about digital marketing, is, it depends. Where should your business lie in that space around automation, specifically in the PPC realm? It's going to depend on where your business is at in the life cycle, what you're able to afford as far as agency or humans doing work, and what are the long-term goals of the business, or what are you trying to accomplish? Ryan: And so, let me take it in a few phases I guess, in kind of explaining what I believe in automation. You've got the full automation, where you're just going to either use a tool, or, for most businesses, use Google's Smart Campaigns in the e-commerce world to spend money for you in Google. I think in some spaces it does make sense, but it also comes with a very large asterisk, where you're having Google do all of this work for you to grow your business, but Google's goals, generally speaking, are different than yours. As a big, publicly traded company, they have responsibilities to their shareholders to grow their revenues and profits, just like you as a business owner have a responsibility to yourself or to your employees to grow revenues and profits. So for most businesses, Smart Campaigns and full automation in Google is not my recommendation, and it is mainly around understanding what's going on in your account and the ability to really scale. Ryan: But small advertisers, just starting up, you've never spent before, you really want to see if your business online has some legs to it if you start spending money, I do think Smart Campaigns within the Google space do have a place to play in that. And if I had to put a line in the sand, probably somewhere around $500 or less a month in ad spend to kind of prove a model. My wife, for example, would make me prove something to her before we actually jumped with both feet into a business and say, "Yeah, let's throw a bunch of money at it, and really see if it works." She'd say, "All right, let's kind of see what happens if you just kind of let Google do something on the side here to see what happens with 500 bucks over a couple months, 500 a month for a couple months." I think there's something there. Ryan: On the other spectrum, no automation, where you are 100% customized, doing everything either with an employee or an agency internally running an account on Google and Microsoft. That has a place to play, and I think that pool of companies where that makes sense is probably in more of a mid-tier type business model where you're spending a few thousand a month, maybe as high as 10,000 a month, where you're really just one person doing all the work for you, and you can do a lot of customization, because generally when you're at that spend level, you're not the biggest, you're not the smallest, but you're having to compete with some of those biggest, and you need some of that kind of surgical precision to find those specific keywords, or specific searches for specific products that really makes sense for your company, and you've seen the conversion rates that work. Ryan: And then, the vast majority of businesses fall kind of in the middle, where you do need some automation, and you do need some human strategy and somebody else, and some humans touching the account as well. And so, focusing on the middle is where it gets most complicated. So, for the majority of businesses out there, it's how much, or what parts of the account really make sense there. Is it an internal employee with some automation? Is it an agency using humans, and some automation? And what goes first? Is it the automation first, with a human checking on it, and making sure it's working? That's going to be a broad spectrum within the space. Jon: So, I'm hearing that it makes sense to prove out a business. So, prove out a new product perhaps, somewhere where you're just going to spend a little bit of money, and you want to start and see if there's a good product market fit there. And if so, then it would make sense to expand beyond just automation. But it does have its use cases, which is great to hear. So, okay. So, you've talked a lot about, there's three tiers to be thinking about, right? And that that kind of messy middle is where "it depends" is usually the answer, which makes sense. So, let's talk about some tools around this. What are the benefits to using pay-per-click automation tools? You mentioned one of them being to prove out a marketplace, but in terms of the tools themselves, can you talk a little bit about what the automation does in that sense? Ryan: Yeah, so there's a lot of different areas of PPC that you can actually automate. And a lot of PPC automation came about, let's say maybe 10 years ago it really started to get some traction, around bid management, and having some computer system actually automate the bid changes in the account, because it does get mundane. It does become difficult, in the middle of the night, for example, or around the clock, to be making changes in an account when you actually have humans working your account need some sleep. And so, bid management was really the beginning of the space. And so, that's constantly there. It's still there. Google even has automations built into their platform now around bids. They have enhanced CPC, which I believe, Jon, you had some fun with that setting when Google changed some settings around that. I believe you spent upwards of $200 per click on Google when we looked at your account together. Jon: Yes. That's where automation became dangerous. And again, I know nothing about this, right? And so, I thought, "Hey, I'll let Google handle it," and I clicked the box, and then ended up spending a lot of money. Ryan: Yep. Oops. And that, it happens. It's not, obviously, what happens all the time. But when automated systems get... be doing what they're told, I mean, they have to still have input from a human, they can do things that maybe aren't intended, and that is really the big thing you have to be aware of in using automation. They're really as good as the inputs you're giving them, or the person designing the algorithm. And so, heavy trading algorithms are really impacting stock markets all over. And so, big drops, big swings up and down can happen because of automation. So, you just need to be coming in with some concern or just awareness that that can happen, so you're watching it, no matter what level of automation you're using. Ryan: But there's bid management, there is automated campaign management. In fact, one of my competitors that's been around for even longer than us, and they actually have a really good name in the marketplace, they built some automated systems to take search queries that converted and build them into ad groups automatically, because that became some of the more mundane time-draining things that were happening, when you'd see a search for this specific product that you hadn't seen before, you're like, "Oh, that converted, that's great, let's make sure there's not more of that out there. Let's build a specific ad group for that search and capture all of it." Great strategies. And so, the main argument that a lot of agencies that are using automation and automated systems that are helping internal employees and agencies scale is you can spend more time strategizing on growth and let these automated systems do a lot of the stuff that are just sucking time away from maybe the things that are more mundane and you don't need to be spending high-powered talent on doing those things. Very logical. I mean, there's no scenario in which that sounds like a terrible idea. Ryan: What's happened with that, that I've seen over the last 10 years, is a lot of agencies have adopted this automation, and it's allowed for tremendous amounts of scale, without having to develop a bunch of humans to understand what's going on, or to know how to communicate with clients, which is in no way bad. But what's happening is as this scale is happening at a lot of agencies that I'm seeing their accounts is they're losing their touch with what's going on, and then how to strategize for actual growth because this tool is doing so much of the work, that they can't go in and say, this client may say, "I really want to start doing this," or, "I want to move my return on ad spend goal to this," or, "Should I be breaking into this market?" And because these tools are doing so much of the work, that question isn't as easily answered as if by somebody that was actually in the account all the time that saw the search queries, that was doing negative keyword reports, that was doing all these wonderful things, and bid management, that could actually respond very quickly and say, "Oh, here's what you need to be considering as a business owner or your marketing team when looking at this question." Ryan: And so, that's been one of my big concerns. I think about stupid, stupid movie, but Idiocracy, where you've got a guy that's been dead for so long, comes back and everybody's really dumb, and he was not smart back when he lived, but everybody got so much dumber because of automation and the world doing everything for them. I worry about that. I don't think it's happening across the board at agencies or internal teams, but I really have a lot of respect for groups of people, or agencies that have to be in the account regularly, and I see a lot better results, generally speaking, when somebody's in a Google Ads or Microsoft account making the changes, because they're seeing in real time what's happening in the market, and they have to have a lens where they're looking at things through and say, "Why is this happening? I have to go solve this problem or understand it a little bit more." Whereas, if a tool's doing all the work, they don't have to try to get in there and understand what's happening, or what is the competitor doing that's causing this to happen in this account. Jon: I heard you talk a lot about search and search ads and Google and, okay, so Google has some automation. Does Bing have automation? Microsoft Ads. Ryan: They do have some, and it's not as old as Google. So, I can't say that it works as good or has as many advancements because I also don't look under the hood and I don't understand all the engineers and what they're doing. Microsoft obviously has some very smart people and they're doing some great things in there. So, a lot of the same things you see in Google, Microsoft Ads also has a lot of that capability for automation, and I would use a lot of the same automation the same way depending on where you are in the business cycle and what is needed in your business. Jon: Okay. Now, what about social channels, because that falls under pay-per-click for me, right? Ryan: Yep. Jon: So, what about things like LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter? Is there automation built into those platforms? Ryan: There is some level of automation built into almost every platform, and I look at it almost the same no matter who or what platform it's on. It's an old example, but it still rings true. I wouldn't give all my taxes to the IRS to have them do them for me and tell me how much I owe them. We're diametrically opposed to what should be happening in that scenario. Jon: Right, success is different for each of you, right? Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Exactly. So, if Facebook is doing everything for me and I'm just giving them a credit card and hoping that it does well, there is a piece of Facebook that wants me to succeed, but Facebook's success is more important to Facebook than my business succeeding. They know that if my business fails, another one's going to come up. Same with Google, same with Microsoft, same with LinkedIn. It's all the same. So, I, having been in this for a decade, I step a little bit away from automation whenever possible and I say, "Okay, how can I understand this better? How can I try to beat what the automation is doing?" Because what I've seen a lot of times with the engineers that build automated tools, way smarter than I am, as far as coding, math. I mean, it's not even close. But we're coming up with a strategy of maybe why this should be bid up or bid down, or maybe why this keyword should or should not be in the account. Ryan: I've still seen the humans making better decisions on that, and I think the machines and the AI is a very popular term. Artificial intelligence, everybody wants to be able to say that they do have a lot of that in their agency or in their organization, because it sounds really good. Like, "I've got this artificial intelligence that's really pushing growth and doing a lot of my thinking for me." Again, not bad at all, and I actually recommend businesses step into that space to understand it more and to use it where it's appropriate. But I still think when you have human searching and the change is constantly happening, we know that something like 15% of all searches done on Google every 90 days have never been done before. So, what is an artificial intelligence going to do with a search term that's never been done before? It can gain some insights possibly, but as we're blending in search query reports now voice search with text search, like, I type it into my computer or I search for it on Alexa or Google Home. There's a lot of different intent behind that. I've seen better results from humans looking through that and being able to filter it. Jon: Right, right. Especially working with natural language and understanding the intent behind what people are searching versus just what they say, right? Ryan: Yeah. Yep. Jon: Okay. Ryan: And so, yes, companies need to be looking at automation and considering the opportunities available, and then how is that going to compliment what they currently are doing? I don't ever look at, long-term, replacing humans... I mean, again, in the next five years that will be my long-term view. You can't predict anything in the digital space beyond five years, and really, anything longer than a year is, you're throwing darts at a dartboard way far away. But I don't foresee any time soon where I would be comfortable with my money on full automation, no human looking into that or doing it, or having a serious play within that space. I spend a decent amount of my own money on all these platforms, and I see the automation. I know the biggest players in the space. I mean, if you're in the PPC world, Marin, Kenshoo, Adobe, Acquisio. Probably hundreds of others that are doing the same thing in bid automation, in addition to Google and Microsoft, including Facebook will do some bid automation based on goals. There's no shortage of those. There's no shortage of very, very smart people working to create the next best automation. Jon: I think you made a good point earlier, and that's something I think you just touched on right now even, but it's in the favor when you do bid automation of Facebook or whoever to have that bid go up and up and up, right? So, automating means that escalation seems to happen more quickly. Is that not true? Ryan: Yeah, I mean, we saw it in your account, right? Where you were averaging in your business $20 a click, which is reasonable, based on how you spend money and the returns you get. But then all of a sudden, if everybody is on automation and everybody's using Google's automation on Google, how does Google know who's going to win? Does Google play, you know, make it socialist where everybody gets 5% because there's 20 people advertising, so we're going to even it out and make everybody little? How do you grow beyond that? And that's where logic comes into my side and says, okay, we can't all be on automation or there's just, there's no win. There's only so many ways you can look at moving bids up or down, for example. They can only move up and down, they can't move sideways, they can't move diagonal. And so, it's understanding more about the user as we add layers in from a remarking perspective, from an RLSA perspective. The more information we have about this user allows us to get more aggressive or less aggressive than maybe a competitor that doesn't have that information. Ryan: And so, all of these layers we add on add complexity and give opportunity to people that have that data. So data is actually probably, in my opinion, more valuable than some automations. The more data layers you can get, and you can get lost in data, so don't get me wrong, the idea that "Oh, big data, all you need to do is look in all these thousands of Excel sheets to figure out where that one specific customer is that you want and go find them and bid on them." It's more about using that as you're making adjustments and using the understanding and strategy behind why you may or may not be making this move. Ryan: It's fascinating, when I look at all the people I've hired in the digital marketing space and the people that have really succeeded on the backend of making the moves in an account. It's really, from a human perspective, becoming an art form in how you look at a Google Ads account, and you're kind of, I joke with the guys and girls on the team, or ladies on the team, that it's kind of like the Matrix, where you're looking at just all of these digits flying around. And the really good paid search account managers in the account really see it in a much different light than somebody like myself that would go in and say, "Yeah, okay, I see it says $200 and it says conversion." They're seeing all these different layers because of their experience. I mean, some of our people have been doing this for over a decade, 15 years actually, in the accounts, doing it, and they're so efficient and so crazy of what they can do. Ryan: And we've matched that up with people that are very good at gaming, like, the strategy piece of gaming. And so, really, we're looking at almost the gamification of digital marketing, where we're looking at these and saying, "All right, you're trying to beat these other advertisers." I'm a hyper competitive individual, as you know, and you're pretty darn competitive as well, in your basketball and marketing world. I want to win. And we find people that really want to win, and then they add their ability to see all of these moving pieces and saying, "Hey, if that competitor of our client goes out of business, that's unfortunate for that company, but it's really good for us and our client." Ryan: It becomes fun but also interesting in how you're taking that human that is really good at paid search management, and what we're trying to do is kind of make, right now my best analogy is kind of the Terminators. How are we using technology and bolting it on to them to make them more effective at what they do? Rather than replacing it, how do we give them things they can look through with weird glasses or things they can add onto their mice? What are we doing to make them more efficient as a human, and that's how we look at technology and automation. Jon: So next time I visit Logical Position, I'm going to be interacting with a bunch of cyborgs basically. Ryan: I mean, hey, if my vision comes in place. I mean, maybe two years out on that one. Jon: Dart board, right? That's one of the darts. Ryan: Yeah, one of the darts. But it's... I think the best use of PPC automation, personally, and this is my lens I look through and how we're looking at automation internally at Logical Position is, for the majority of companies in the middle, it's, how are you supplementing the humans? Instead of replacing them, how are you making them able to do more? So, we use, scripts are a great automation that a lot of people don't think about. We're using scripts to say, "All right, this ad group had a hundred impressions by 6:00 AM yesterday and it has zero today. What just happened? Something is broken there. Let's go in and see that." Replacing some of that minutia or things that just get really bored or tedious, or we just don't have the scale of a human in a large account to get to all of those pieces efficiently. How can we say, "All right, I need this to go do that"? Maybe it's not going to go through the search query reports for us and find all the negative, but it can bubble up some opportunities. Ryan: I've talked to a phenomenal technology company, Metricstory. If you haven't checked out Metricstory I think they're really cool, and they're really, man, they have some smart engineers. They're doing some automation where they're able to bubble up new opportunities based on scraping a Shopping search query report and saying, "Hey, these converted and they're actually not showing in your text ad or search portion of your account, from a search query perspective. You should put this keyword in there because it's converting on Shopping." And it can, based on their algorithm, their really smart algorithm, it can even give you an estimated return on ad spend, saying, "Hey, this keyword we think is going to get this based on ad groups around it." Ryan: So we're really looking at leveraging some of that in our efficiencies. Say, "Okay, if we have that, can we make this person able to focus more on bids on text ads because we have this filtering a search query report on Shopping?" Or we're able to find losers in the search query report on the text ad side much quicker than we could if we had to comb through it by hand. Jon: Yeah, this is a really interesting point, adding on to what people, the strategy that a human person can bring to this, with a little bit of AI, helps them to push this even further. But you still have to have the insight that somebody is bringing to the table with that experience to really pull out the meaningful changes. And I thought it was really interesting, you said earlier that aligns with this, bids and these automated bid machines, they only can go up and down. They can't go sideways or diagonal or any other dimension, right? And that's what a human is able to do. Ryan: It's a frustrating answer, but every company should be looking at kind of a backstop. And then also, if you're a company that has one person managing your account internally, I always had the worry as an agency of the bus theory, like what if they get hit by a bus? I told my team, nobody could take the public transportation because you can not be hit by a bus. We don't have enough backups. But in that scenario it's like, okay, well, who else is going to be aware of that? And it can't just be an automated system that's going to be continued going if they evaporated tomorrow, because it's unencumbered, you know, what's going on. Ryan: So, having some automation helping them, but also documenting things too so that an automation doesn't need to take all of it, but that another human could come in and replace or augment as well if somebody needs time off or pregnancy or birth or sickness, all these other things that we, at scale, with 750 employees here, we can do that automatically but a lot of companies don't have that ability. And so, they need probably a little more automation just to protect themselves but also ensure that there are some humans looking at things. Jon: Well Ryan, this has been extremely educational for me. Thank you for sharing all the knowledge around this. I am really looking forward to the day that I walk into Logical Position and I'm interacting with some cyborgs and then having you bring that skillset over to The Good so that we can continue to do the same on the conversion side. Ryan: Oh yeah. That looks fun, huh? Jon: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for educating me today. Really looking forward to not spending $200 unnecessarily on my own ads by checking a box for automation in the future. So, thank you for saving me on that earlier on. Any last words on this? Ryan: Of course, you can just send me a $200 bottle of wine and it'll be just the same. Jon: Perfect, I know what you like. It's in the mail. Ryan: No, I think it's good just to always be careful with automation. Don't assume it's going to work for you always. Just have smart humans working with you. Jon: Awesome. All right, thanks Ryan. Have a wonderful afternoon. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

Mike and Teeg had a podcast back before podcasts were cool – The Fish Schtick, a fishing podcast with Brian Bennett from MoldyChum.com.Now, Mike hosts Wild & Exposed – an awesome podcast for people who are interested in wildlife, photography, and for sure wildlife photography.Mike sent an amazing case of candy, and we dig into it today. We don’t try it all, but we give away a giant gummy hamburger that Mike sent to us.First candy is the Super Cola. Super Japanese. Smells like a cleaning product. Michelle spits it out immediately. Ryan is shocked. Tastes like a cleaning product at first. You have to power through that, and then it’s like having flat generic cola.Ryan, “It’s like an extreme lemon drop dipped in Lysol.”Michelle, “I can’t remember the last time candy caused physical pain.”Ryan, “On some of the trips we go on, you’re in the field for 10 or 15 days. If I had this, I’d gut through it on those trips because you get so hungry for sugar.”This candy came from an Asian market in Chicago. It’s like a bunch of little food trucks, but inside. You order by picture. But in addition to that they have a grocery store, and they have these crazy candy aisles. So Mike went through there, and got the funkiest stuff he could find.10 years ago, Mike & Teeg shot a TV pilot. Michelle helped with one of the early versions. Randy Joe Heaven, Marcia Rubin were the co-hosts.We were going to fish 50 states in 50 days, you’d see it as it’s being made with daily “webisodes.” There would be events every three days or so, so people could be PART of the show. We were before our time – the world wasn’t ready for that kind of thing. We had some network offers but they were bad offers.We were going to start in Hawaii and end in Alaska.The pilot: https://vimeo.com/4668897?fbclid=IwAR3wGAAyGz5ZUKQ8IeoZWKUcpzUzCjh3f_4Y12rcxOAMqe6Tu39-W5i8XYUDifferent Edit: https://vimeo.com/9728709Mike has shot other pilots and full shows – but rather than digging into that, we dug into one of his most recent adventures. He rebuilt a 1987 Toyota truck that he always loved. Then he drove the Al-Can highway from Denver to Anchorage by way of Yellowstone … that’s like 3500 miles. First breakdown happened by the time they reached Yellowstone.Canada is just so vast … and by the time you get to Alaska, you still have 10 hours to drive. You don’t see other people. You might see one car an hour up in the Yukon.There are two routes, they did the northern route because it has more settlements. The other way is prettier, but they wanted to play it safer with this old vehicle.They thought they’d camp along the way, but not knowing if it would have been safe, they ended up staying in little hotels.Mike’s advice: if you ever do it, give yourself three weeks minimum, one-way.Jumping into Candy #2 – another Michael Mauro find. Japanese Flower Kiss Candy. The wrappers are all different colors, but the candy inside all seems to be the same. This is Grandma candy dish candy. It’s good. It’s kind of like the strawberry wrapped hard candies. Fruity and good. Nice. Sweet. Sweeter than a lot of Asian candy. Like American candy sweet.Michelle: “I’ll carry these in my purse in about 20 years.”Mike: “Kind of like grapefruit, passion fruit, lychee.”Ryan: “Too bad it’s not Durian!”Mike started out in biology, and he tells his origin story at Mesa Verde National Park. He chaperoned a photographer in the back country.The gear changed a lot, he was shooting just stills when he went to Antarctica but back then, carried a mix of film and digital.Going to Antarctica on a Russian icebreaker crossing the Drake Passage, one of the roughest pieces of sea in the world. The crew didn’t speak English, so Mike just watched their faces “to see if they seemed nervous.”There were 110 or 120 people on the ship, and the first morning, only 10 showed up for breakfast. The seas are so rough that everyone has an upset stomach. Walking down the halls was like being a pinball in a pinball machine. Laying down in your bunk and looking out the window, you’d see sky … then sea … sky … then sea.Mike was hired not just to take photos there, but to teach people on the way there during the over-seas passage how to take good photos. He was a presenter.You’d expect Antarctica to be all ice. In reality, you see beaches, cobblestones, rocks, grass. The ship would be in the bay, and they’d run ashore in inflatable Zodiac rafts. They photographed all kinds of penguins, seals, whales and birds like cormorants.Since those animals see so few humans, they’re not afraid of us. But the fur seals will run you down.Beaches were surrounded in ice, and glaciers and icebergs calved off all the time. You could gauge if it was a big enough piece of ice to get you wet by if the penguins would run.Teeg can’t resist post-holiday candy, so Teeg had to get us into some after-Easter super discount candy.Russell Stover Truffle Eggs and Russell Stover Sours Watermelon Eggs.The Truffle Eggs are of course delicious.The Sours … it’s impossible to imagine that any company made this with the intention of producing pleasure.Ryan: “This is uncool. It’s white chocolate with sour watermelon flavor, but it’s extremely gross.”Michael: “THE AFTERTASTE!”Ryan: “It’s like someone said, ‘Hey, I got an idea!’ And now they’re fired.”Michelle: “You know how Super Cola started disgusting and then got OK? This starts OK and then gets awful.”Teeg starts out liking it … keeps on liking it … conversation about potted meat … STRUCK BY ABHORRANT AFTER TASTE comes later, and Teeg can barely talk.Meanwhile, Mike talks about eating food in Africa. “You never know what you’re eating. It’s some sort of meat in a sauce with noodles or something.”He gets sick every time he’s in Africa … but he doesn’t think it’s from the food. He thinks it’s from weird germs over there.Eating zoo animals: “I had elephant and I didn’t like it. They cherish it. It was dried meat. I wouldn’t search it out, but I’d eat it if I was really hungry.”The best eating is in Argentina. The best meat in the world.But Mike also lives in Alaska part of the time, so he eats moose, elk and bear. He doesn’t hunt bear, but he gets it from people. Favorite is moose. If you like bison, you’d like moose. It’s the most natural eating.Mike hung out with Sean James, the guy from the myselfreliance YouTube channel for a week. Sean follows the footsteps of Dick Proenneke. He has a cabin out in the wilderness of Alaska.Last show we had Teeg’s brother Ben on, he has the Benstown YouTube channel, he built a cabin and does antique tool restoration.Mike’s taken an interest to watching YouTube channels about guys building tiny experimental planes, and he’s had his share of time flying into the back country in small planes, landing on skis or floats.We rate the candy, talk about Sporting Dog Podcast, and Mike teases a potential future show: our friend Travis Ford recently shot a documentary about a chocolate maker in Guatemala.

Jon dives into why Conversion Rate Optimization doesn’t stop after the purchase and the different points after-purchase that you need to optimize in order to drive higher revenues. Link: The Essential Guide to Ecommerce Sales Promotions (https://thegood.com/insights/essential-ecommerce-promotion-guide/) (In this article, #51-78 are focused on promotions you can run that aren't discounts) Outline: First, Jon cover’s different points after purchase that CRO can have an impact: In cart, right after purchase -Thank you page Email post-purchase sequence: -Confirmation email -Shipping confirmation -Customer service -Please leave a review – just click here -Add to general marketing email list sends He also explains the metrics a brand should be looking at to track progress of post-purchase optimization: -Return purchase -CLTV -Conversion (overall, should go up with repeat customers!) Jon is a firm believer that companies shouldn’t use discounting in post-purchase communications. However, there may be offers you can make that are not discounts. You do not want to become a discount brand. Finally, Jon explains that a successful method for getting referrals post-purchase outside of a set loyalty program is just to ask! Very few do! Transcript: Ryan: Jon, today, I really want to move our focus to an area that I think many companies and individuals would not normally think of conversion rate optimization and the impact it can have. I'm talking about post-purchase. Most people generally would assume that once a purchase happens on the website, CRO has done its job, time to move to the next person on the site and get them to convert. But, because I know you, I'm aware that CRO doesn't stop at the purchase. There's a lot more to be done. Can you explain to people, that maybe aren't aware of post-purchase conversion rate optimization, what they need to be thinking about, what they need to be doing, and why it even exists after they've already taken the sale, done what you wanted them to do originally? Jon: Right, and I think that's an important point there, Ryan, which is that most people think that conversion optimization stops as soon as you get someone to purchase. I think that's really shortsighted and it's a big problem because so much of the consumer experience and getting people to purchase a second time, is all about what happens when they purchase that first time. So, if you get them to convert, your job's not done. At that point... you got to think of this like a marathon. You just ran a marathon. Most people who are seasoned marathon runners, they get through that finish line. They have a process they still go through to cool down, protect their body, recover a little bit. It's the same thing here. After you've- Ryan: ... And I just go drink beer. Jon: ... Right, exactly, and that's why you don't run marathons. Ryan: That's why I don't. Jon: Learned that lesson the hard way, huh? Ryan: Uh-huh (affirmative), I did. Jon: Yeah, so exactly, this is it, where we can't just stop and drink a beer. You've got to go through a follow-up process here that can really, really have a massive impact on your overall metrics of your site and success and revenue, and even your conversion rate, because most people don't think about that. But overall, your conversion rate should go up with repeat customers. Ryan: True. Jon: There's a handful of things you should be thinking about that I think we should talk about today. There's a bunch of different points after purchase that can have an impact with conversion rate optimization, and if you optimize these points, you will see higher revenues. Ryan: Okay, so somebody's purchased on my site or client's site. Action's done. Does post-purchase conversion rate start after the product arrives, or where's the first point that we can be making an impact to improve conversion rates in the future? Jon: In the cart. It starts right then. As soon as somebody completes the order, gives you their payment, what happens? Ryan: Hmm. Jon: Most of the time, people aren't really considering the first step, which is a thank you page. What is the content that you're putting on there? Now, there are ways to, even on that thank you page, influence so many extra metrics. You can influence your average order value on that thank you page. There's some great tools out there right now. One of my favorites is a company called CartHook. CartHook has a tool, where you put it onto your thank you page, and it actually shows you complimentary products to what you bought and says, "Do you want to add it to the order?" You're doing an upsell after the purchase. You already got them to commit, and maybe they're thinking, "I bought those shoes, maybe I'll add a pair of socks. Why not?" Ryan: Now is that in addition to maybe also having upsell in the shopping cart, or do you usually recommend just get them to commit to something and then try to upsell them later? Jon: Right. I think that's a big mistake people make is to do the upsells in the cart. I don't think that's serving the consumers' needs, because serving the consumers' needs is helping them complete that checkout as quickly and easily as possible. You want to get that conversion. That's most important, obviously. So, after you've completed that sale, then, go back and do the upsells. Now, that doesn't mean you're not doing upsells throughout the funnel and throughout the product detail page or categories, things of that sort, right, complimentary products. But I don't think you should be doing it in the cart. That's when you just closed the transaction, at that point. Jon: A lot of people like to think of it like retail, where you're at a grocery store and they have all the candy bars and magazines, and you're just standing there in line. It's not like that because online, you shouldn't be waiting around at the checkout. Those items are there at the grocery store line because you're waiting for the person in front of you. You're likely bored, and they're capturing your attention. It's a captive market. Well, when you're in the cart and you're checking out online, you just have one goal, and that's to get it done. So, anything you put in the way there is actually going to become a distraction and annoying for the consumer. Not something where, "You're entertaining me with the latest gossip about celebrities for five minutes while I'm waiting for the family in front of me that's scanning 300 items at the grocery store." Ryan: Oh, you follow me at the grocery store, huh Jon?" Jon: Exactly. I got one kid. I can't imagine having a whole family like yourself. I think the first step is definitely in-cart, on that thank you page. Pay attention to the messaging. You can run a lot of A/B tests on the messaging alone and see what resonates. But also, adding a tool like CartHook, where you're figuring out all of these additional metrics and how to increase things like customer lifetime value, average order value. All of that kind of even goes back into your ROAS, your return on ad spend. If you start thinking about it this way, the higher your average order value, the higher your return on ad spend. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, in addition to something like a CartHook offering up some complimentary products, is there any kind of messaging or kind of like, "Hey, I really want to make them feel good about what they just did. They spent money with me..." because most companies are like, "Hey, thanks. We'll be emailing you a confirmation," and that's pretty much the thank you page. Do you recommend adding more to that, or is it just kind of just get the products in front of them, get them in and out type thing? Jon: Well, we've actually run some tests, where brands who already participate in like 1% For Good or some of these other donation or charity causes, at that point, and reemphasizing that on the thank you page. Like, "Thank you for your purchase. Did you know part of your purchase is going to these great causes?" Ryan: Oh. Jon: Right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, what's happening there is you're actually just making somebody feel even better. You're reassuring them about their purchase. I think that's really important there, is the reassurance. I don't know about you, but sometime... like, I bought a new car six months ago now, maybe. There's nothing like the joy of driving the new car home. But then you're sitting at home and you're like, "I'm a little guilty. I feel guilty. I bought a new car today." You know what I mean? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's that thing where it's like, "I just dropped a lot of money on this." Yeah, it's awesome, but at the same time, I could have got a used car that had a hundred thousand miles on it and would have got me from A to B. It's the same thing when you buy online. You need to reassure people that... they probably didn't need what they bought from you. Maybe they had some need around it. But if you did a great job with your marketing sales and every everything else but your customer experience, you helped them see the benefit of a product that maybe had a little more cost to it than what they were planning to spend, but there's some value there for them. Sometimes that's just the emotional value. But, at the same time, reassurance is really key on that thank you page. Ryan: Got it. Okay, so we've got the thank you page dialed, we've got some upsells potential there, we've told them that they're amazing and they bought from an awesome company. Now, how do I go about encouraging future business from this customer of mine? Jon: Well, I think the first thing that really needs to be paid attention here is that what happens in email post-purchase. Now, most people don't think about this when they're optimizing a site. They usually just leave it to whatever the defaults are. So, if they're using Shopify, it will automatically send out some emails, depending on what email provider, using like a Klaviyo or something like that. It will have some of these built-ins with some best practices. But this is a ripe opportunity for optimization that most people are not thinking about. Jon: I always say there's five emails that should be sent out after a purchase. It's a huge opportunity if you're missing any of these five. Now, the easiest one, and the first, is always confirmation email. The order went through, all is well, it's received, we'll be shipping it on this date or soon. Just confirming everything's gone well, it's gone through. Just send them an email, and that email should go out immediately. There's no reason to hold on to it, even if you don't have a shipping date yet. It doesn't need to have tracking information in this email. It's just, "Hey, you know what, we have your money, your order, here's your receipt," right? Ryan: Okay. Jon: That's a good opportunity, at that point... I've seen this done very well, and I don't know what the tool is, but I should definitely look into that. I've seen this done so well, where they even do the upsell in that email. This happened to me last week. I bought some lights for my yard, solar lights, and to light up what's been real... we live in Portland. It's super dark here this time of year for long hours of the day. So, I'm driving home and it's dark in my driveway. Well, what I did, I went and I got some solar lights. Yeah, probably not the best for how dark it is here, but we'll move on from that. Jon: In the cart, it said, "Hey, you bought a certain number of these, did you want to add more?" That was a great in-cart experience and I decided not to do it. But then, I got the email right away. In that email, it said, "Hey, if you change your mind, you have four hours from when this email is sent to add a few more before we're going to start packing up your order, and you'll have to just place another order." And it said, "Click here to add four more, eight more or twelve more." It even had a discount on them. I thought that was really interesting. I wanted to see it, what would happen, just from a research standpoint, so I added four more to my order. It was great. It just took me right back to a page on the site that said, "Thanks, Jon. Here's your order number. We added four more to it. Your new total is X." Ryan: And you got a discount on it, on adding the four more. Jon: Well, it was because they didn't add any more for shipping those extra four, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, it wasn't a percentage off. It was saying, "Hey, we'll add these, but we won't charge you more to ship them." Ryan: Got it. Jon: Now, you could do a whole bunch of different items around discounting. We should definitely talk about discounting today, a little bit there. But I think the point here was, is that they had a captive audience. I'm going to look at my receipt email. Most people do. Ryan: Yep. Jon: It should be a highly opened email. So, it's a great captive audience and a great opportunity to do an upsell that nobody really thinks about. Ryan: No, yeah, and I can easily see how... you didn't take the complimentary products, but maybe you suggest something maybe even more different in the email, but offer a discount. Like, "Hey, add this in and we'll give you 10% off, and just include it in the order and it'll go out at the same time," or something. Jon: Right. And you think about it, it's a free cost of sale at that point for the retailers. So, there's really no additional cost in sending that email. You're already going to send the receipt. Email is super cheap as is anyways. But you don't have to advertise to them. You're not remarketing. You're not doing any of that that could add the extra cost. Jon: Okay. So, we have confirmation email. The second email is shipping confirmation. Once the order has shipped, let the consumer know immediately. "Your order has shipped. It's on its way. Here's the tracking number, and it should be there within this date range or on this specific day." Now, even if the tracking number is not available in UPS or FedEx or whatever at this point, because those can take 12 hours or 24 hours to show up in there, you can always just say, "Hey, this link won't show any results for X amount of time." But you should give them that right away because they're going to reference that, perhaps, throughout the order process or while they're waiting for the order. But I think it's a great opportunity just to confirm things have been shipped, all is still well, it's going to be there. Jon: It's a great opportunity, at that point, to also offer any resources. So, you can say, "Hey, you bought these solar lights. Let me include a video..." and this is exactly what they did for me. They included a video that showed me how to put them together, in that shipping confirmation. Ryan: Hmm. Jon: So now, I had something to kind of tease me a little bit until the products arrived. I thought it was super interesting because, not only was I just getting that shipping information, which normally I would just look at, but archive and save in case it didn't arrive, but I actually went through and reengaged with the brand by watching an installation video, which is a great opportunity. Now, when I get the product, immediately I can open the box and start using it. Right? Ryan: Oh, yeah. Jon: That's a much better experience. So, we've got confirmation email, shipping confirmation email, and the third email I always recommend is a customer service email. What do I mean by that? Well, this is just a check-in email. This should be a couple of days after the product was supposed to arrive. What should happen here is it should say something like, "Did you receive the product? Was everything okay? If not, just reply to this email and let us know." Pretty simple, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's a just let them know you're there, that they have a channel if there's an issue. And what you're going to do here, is you're going to prevent a negative online review. Because if they have a problem, they're not going to go online and vent. They're going to say, "Oh, you know what, I got that email from them. I'll reply to that email and try to figure this out." And then, you have an opportunity to turn a bad situation into a good one very quickly. You're preemptively handling that situation by just letting them know you're there. And if there's no problems at all, it's still awesome just to know that that brand is available for you and that they're there. Jon: I often recommend, have this email either go out the day the product should arrive, and you can say something like, "Your product should be arriving today. Let us know if you have any problems," and things of that sort. It's also another opportunity to send some more resources. If you want to link to more stuff up on your site, or there's... we worked with a company that sells tents. They did a really good job with this. It's like how to set up your tent, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because a lot of people struggle with that. They've gotten a lot easier over the years, but it's still something that required a little bit of knowledge. So, we've got confirmation emails, shipping confirmation, customer service, and then the fourth email I always recommend is please leave a review. This is a review request. Now, this should definitely go out a couple of days, maybe even a week, after they've gotten the product. The idea here is just make it so simple for them. There's a couple of tools that make this super easy. Shopper Approved. It does this extremely well. It's a reviews platform, where they just send out an email that asks for the review, and then it has five stars in the review, and it says, "Click the star that you want to rate." Ryan: Yeah, I've actually done that before and didn't even know I was giving a review. Jon: Right. It's one click. Ryan: It's phenomenally simple. Me, as an online marketer, I'm in it all day every day. Then I got a review email from one of the companies I bought from, and it was Shopper Approved. Blew me away. Like, "Wow. I actually just accidentally gave a five star review." I was going to give it anyway, but it was like, "Wow, that was ridiculously simple." Jon: Yeah, and that's exactly what it's about here, is just make it quick, make it easy, but ask for the review. Most people, at this point, don't ask for a review. They're asking for a review on their website, which I can promise you, nobody is going back to a website, from finding that product detail page for the product they purchased, and giving it a review. It's a huge red flag and perhaps we should do another episode, Ryan, on product reviews, because it's a huge red flag for consumer trust. Jon: If you see, on a product detail page, that you can leave a review, that tells me that there are so many unverified reviews on there. I don't trust what's being said anymore because the manufacturer or retailer could just be sending their entire family to that page. I want to know that they're actually verified reviews from people that have purchased and that's the only reviews that are in that mix. The best way to do that is just ask for it via email after the purchase. It's going to be a verified review. That also, and you probably know more about this though, Ryan, but that also allows you, if they're all verified, to have the star ratings show up on your product detail page listings in Google search results. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. You need to have a review aggregator that's approved by Google that's looked at their system and said, "Yes, you're actually getting legitimate reviews." I know there's some plugins on a lot of eCom platforms that allow people to just leave reviews on the site, like you said, and it doesn't build trust. Those can't be sent to Google. So, if your website is, "Hey, I got a place to get reviews. I've got 500 wonderful reviews on my website. How come Google is not allowing me to send them?" It's because you haven't used one of the 30, I believe, companies that are approved to send those reviews to ours, and Google trusts that they're legitimate. Jon: Now, you're not gaming the system, so that's helpful. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, five emails. Confirmation email after purchase, shipping confirmation, customer service, leave a review, and then the fifth is just add them to your general email marketing sends. So, whatever that next email marketing send is, just add them. Now, here's the thing. If you're going to send an email every day, or even every week, the cadence can't be the same as somebody who clearly signed up for your marketing emails on your site. Now, I'm suggesting sending them marketing emails, but maybe it's once a month. It's just some way to stay in front of them, and these emails should be more helpful. They shouldn't be, "Here's the big promotion we're running right now." It should be something like, "Hey, Valentine's Day is coming up. Have you thought about ordering by X date to ensure that you'll have it in time?" Ryan: And so on this, real quick though, you would, in theory, keep them out of your marketing emails until they get to this point. You don't want to automatically, you purchased, you're in my marketing email, and you're going to get a marketing email in the middle of this cadence of emails. Like, you don't want, "Oh, shipping confirmation." "Oh..." two hours later you got the marketing email. Jon: That's exactly right. I think that's extremely important that even if they signed up... okay, this isn't a tactic I recommend. You know I rail on this all the time. But even if you had a pop-up, and you offered a discount to sign up for the marketing emails on your site before they made a purchase, you need to hold those emails a reasonable amount of time, maybe a day or two, to see if they made a purchase right away. There's so many of these tools, like Klaviyo, that make that pretty easy to do, where you can just add an exception real quick to hold them until the next email blast or something. But I would wait for them to at least complete that purchase. If they complete the purchase, then don't send a marketing email until they've gotten the other four emails. Ryan: All right, so we've got an email cadence. We've got in-cart right after the purchase. Some of the things you can do on the thank you page. We touched on this a little bit, in the process of going through there, but in addition to CartHook and maybe the email platform you're using, are there any other CRO tools people can be utilizing or looking at when they're trying to improve post-purchase conversion rates? Jon: Well, I think that it's not as data-focused on tracking every click and movement at that point. So, it's less about the toolsets here. It's more about that customer experience. Email is going to be your biggest toolset here. Yes, there's a lot of stuff you can do to run tests and see how much people are engaging with that thank you page, and there's tools like CartHook and several competitors to them, but I don't think that being as data heavy at this part of the process is going to be very beneficial. Ryan: Got it. And a lot of that is going to be measured by lifetime value of your customers. Are they increasing or not? So, if your lifetime value was $500 and then you implemented a bunch of these things Jon's talked about, did it move to $700 or $800 over a course of the time period that you're outlining? Jon: Right. And there's really three kind of goals that you should have from doing this, and three metrics that you should be tracking by optimizing post-purchase. The first is that customer lifetime value, of course. We want to see that go up over time. What influences that? A return purchase. Did you give them such a good customer experience that they came back and purchased again? Another thing is number of reviews. That's a great one because people are only going to leave a review if they're satisfied or if they're deeply unsatisfied, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: That kind of mushy middle there, nobody really leaves a review, typically. That's why you very rarely will see like a three star review. You're going to see a five or a one, or a four, sometimes people don't like to give five unless... they reserve that for the one time a year. Maybe it's between four and one, but you see very few in between, typically. Then the third metric, besides those, that you should be thinking about is just your conversion. Your conversion rate overall should go up because of those repeat customers, in the sense that if you get more people to come back and purchase again, you should see your conversion rates go up because it's going to be an easier purchase, you're going to have more sales. So, it kind of feeds itself in this cycle. Ryan: Got it. So it's post-purchase conversion rates not something I've normally thought about, or even associate with typical CRO and what you're doing with customer testing and heat mapping and all these wonderful things you do onsite. Now, is generally post-purchase CRO a part of an overall CRO strategy or do you kind of separate them into like, get the purchase CRO and then post-purchase CRO? Jon: That's a great question. Now, my initial thought on that is that it is something that is built into what we do at The Good, and it should be part of a full conversion optimization. But it is a graduate level step. What I mean by that is if you haven't gotten into college and completed those courses of just getting the conversion, then there's no reason to focus on post-purchase yet. So, you really want to have a good customer experience up to that point, and then you can start working on post-purchase optimization. But it is an overall part of the CRO picture, and it really should be. Ryan: Now, one easy way to increase your conversion rate is to throw a bunch of discounts out, obviously. If people save money, of course they're going to buy more, generally. But how do you, or do you, recommend any discounting post-purchase? I kind of mentioned like, "Oh maybe I would throw a 10% discount out for complimentary products in an email." But that may be a bad idea. I don't know. Jon: Well, I'm not a proponent of doing discounts on a site at all. I really believe discounting is not optimization. I call it margin drain, because that's really what it is. Now, can you get more sales through discounting? People love a discount. It does work, but I'm not a proponent of it. I don't think you should be testing discounts, testing promotions in that way. There's a lot of other ways to be doing promotions that aren't just a straight up discount. And the reason is, and I say this all the time, once you bring a new-to-file customer in through a discount, your brand is forever a discount brand in the eyes of that consumer. And it's just not going to change. That means, every time you do a purchase in the future, you're going to have to offer a discount. It's just what's going to be expected. They're never going to want to pay retail price because that's not what the expectation is. Jon: But there are ways around this that are still intriguing offers that aren't discounts. We actually have an article up on our site. We'll have our producer put it in the show notes. But there's an article that we have up on The Good that's something like 90 or 100 different types of offers that you can do that aren't discounts. Ryan: Oh wow. Jon: There's just an unlimited number up there, it seems like. Now, things like buy one, get one, bundling. I mentioned, just earlier, how the company got me by saying, "Hey, we'll add four more to your order without charging you more for shipping." So, you can do things like shipping promotions. Free shipping should be something that you're considering. If not, look at a better fulfillment partner, perhaps, but there's a lot of options out there. That you're allowing people to upgrade their shipping speed. Ryan: Yeah so, one final point, I think, in the post-purchase thing. Something you and I do a lot of between our organizations is referrals. I'm always referring business over to Jon and Jon's very good at referring business to us. But in the eCommerce space, very rarely do I get asked to refer somebody else. I just bought this product. I'm really excited about it. I mean, more than likely, I'm going to be willing to refer, but very rarely do I get asked about it. And a lot of times it's... there may be a loyalty program system out there that does some of this, but what do you suggest companies do to increase some of that potential for referral? Jon: Just ask. I think, as you mentioned, so few do, and there's... most eCommerce managers are spending all this effort and money in affiliate programs, where they're getting people to recommend their product in exchange for an affiliate fee. But they ignore the power that people who actually buy can have. And I think that's a mistake. They really should be thinking a lot about how can we just get somebody who purchased, and is happy with that purchase, to be a referral source? One of the things you can do is, in that email chain that I mentioned of those five emails, instead of asking for a review, you could ask for a referral at that point, right? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: You could mix it up and do a 25% you're asking for referrals, 75% you're asking for a review, however that mix is that you'd like. There's a lot of options there. But the reality is, is all you have to do is ask, and it should cost you nothing at that point. You could offer them a gift in exchange for making a referral, something of that sort, or have a loyalty program that you're doing. There's some great tools out there. I'm a huge fan of one called Smile, smile.io. Smile.io, however you want to pronounce it. But there's a handful of these out there that do a really good job with the loyalty programs. And one of those is asking for referrals and doing it at the right step in the process. Just so few people do it that it blows my mind. Ryan: Is there a right or a wrong way to ask for that referral? Is there a way that it can make people mad, or there's a way that you've seen that's been very successful in that email chain of asking for one? Jon: The first thing I would do is offer them something of value to share. So, instead of the overt, "Just click here to publish to your Facebook a, "I just bought this product, you should too," or something that is super cheesy and very pushy. That's the mistake I see, typically. And most people aren't going to do that. But if you make it something that is really useful, like, "Hey, I just bought this tent from this company, and here's a video on how to set up a tent, or a trick on how to set up a tent, perhaps, that would make your life easier if you camp too." So you say, "Okay, well, share that out," perhaps with this referral code, something of that sort. And you can offer people a discount. Jon: Now, a lot of times... I do this a lot. If I really like something and I'm recommending it to somebody, I'll say, "You know what, I know I get a discount on that. Why don't I just make the introduction and then I know you'll get a discount." So it's, "Offer 10% off to your friends," or whatever that might be. Or, "Use this code and your friends get free shipping," or, "They get a free gift if you refer them." It doesn't, again, have to be a percentage off. But I think there's a lot of options there and a lot of offers that could be mixed in. It just requires a little bit of thought and creativity instead of doing the lazy thing that every eCom site's doing, and either not asking or just saying, "Hey, use this code and give it to your friends for a percentage off." Ryan: Got it. So, just kind of make it a little more fun or exciting, or not just the basic "give me a code." Jon: Right, exactly. Ryan: Well, that's awesome. Okay. So, we've got a lot of potential for increasing conversion rates from thank you pages to emails to referrals to countless different things. Thank you, Jon, for downloading all of that education on us. I think there's just a ton in there that I'm actually going to start implementing on some of my brands. Anything else you want to leave us with? Jon: No, I think that the first thing to think about is getting that conversion. After that, there's so much more opportunity to go that most people don't pay attention to. I think it's really important that they take that extra step. I appreciate you bringing this topic to the table and us discussing it today. Hopefully it's a value for folks. Ryan: Oh yeah, I'm sure it is. Thank you, Jon.

Warning: Hello friends, during a part of this episode on the complicated nature of home during a pandemic, the topic of domestic violence comes up. This is a serious and sensitive matter. If you or someone you know is suffering from abuse, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233, or if you're unable to speak safely, you can log onto thehotline.org or text LOVEIS to 22522.For more information about the Yale Center for Faith & Culture, visit faith.yale.edu.Follow Miroslav Volf on Twitter: @MiroslavVolfFollow Ryan McAnnally-Linz on Twitter @RJMLinz-0:00 Introduction and teaser.-1:17 Introductory summary of the podcast.-2:14 Ryan McAnnally-Linz begins.-3:10  Ryan: “The world outside ourselves and our most immediate environs has been fundamentally altered by quarantine, by staying at home, by social distancing. It makes everything seem distant and mediated. But the really surprising thing to me is that even home feels less real; it's less home-like. And you'd think that spending so much time at home would make it feel like it's the realest thing right now. It should feel especially like home, but, for me at least, it doesn't. And I wonder why that is.”-3:50 Introduction of the topic of the ambivalence of home--how the meaning of home is often fraught with complexities and dualities. -4:00 Similarly, how covid-19 reveals with greater clarity many of the inequalities that have always been, revealing especially through the lens of the home.-6:10 Supporting resources for sufferers and perpetrators of abuse.-7:40 Miroslav joins the conversation. -8:20 Home, the role of tending, and disarray. -12:00 Miroslav on the growing number of artists who are making their private spaces public. -12:47 Miroslav: “To me it is so interesting that objects of beauty have become important for us; we want to nurture the space to be beautiful in a way with which we can resonate....”-13:39 “... and home is supposed to be this place in which we resonate, resonate with things that are at home--they are our things; they speak to us; they have spoken to us over time.-14:05 “And yet, under a crisis situation, they start to not resonate.” -14:20 Home and dissonance in former Yugoslavia between refugees and hosts in the time of war. -15:20 Miroslav: “I live in a home which has a yard which has this typical New England stone fence, and there are a lot of portions of the fence that are falling apart a little bit. I find myself going out every day when I am spending time with my daughter and mending that fence. I want to set it right. Why do I spend so much time wanting to make this fence nice, when I don't specifically spend much time in my garden?” -17:57 Ryan: “It's getting harder for me to imagine other people's experiences as I stay located in one place and the world seems to shrink a bit. I'm reading way too much news-- I think that's relatively common these days--but it feels more distant than usual. Because things that aren't happening in this space aren't a part of my physical engagement in the world.” -18:30 Miroslav on the porousness of home. “The home is a breathing organism, with open doors and open windows--and sometimes open people come in.” -20:04 Miroslav: “I remember when I bought my house, my dad was chuckling as I was so proudly telling him about how I was an owner of this house. And he told me ‘a house needs a servant, not a master.” I think the other way of putting it was, ‘you think you own this place, but really this place owns you.'”-21:30 Ryan on how covid-19 has revealed inequities that were already going on and, at the same time, has concealed those same inequities. -22:45 Miroslav against those celebrities who call the virus “the great equalizer”. -25:00 Miroslav on the beauty that can come in homes. -26:15 Miroslav on the violence that can come in homes. -26:26 Miroslav: “At one point when I was talking about violence in the world, I have said that the violence that happens in battlefields is nothing compared to the amount of violence that happens, and even the ferocity of the violence, that takes place in homes.” -29:10 Ryan on literal contagion that separates home from “others”, and how he is troubled that that will possibly inform analogies of otherness from now on. -31:20 The ambivalence of home in the Garden of Eden. -32:20 The ambivalence of home in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. -32:30 Miroslav's interpretation of the parable as the “un-homing of the home.” See Exclusion and Embrace, Chapter III: Embrace.-35:23 Miroslav: “Home has to be a living and breathing and reality--relationships are dynamic. And I think that is the challenge before which we face. That's why home's are undeniably beautiful, because there's this dynamism and possibility of the intimacy of following the changes and shifts and lives of people; participating with them can be fresh and dynamic and extraordinary.” -37:15 Closing notes.

Ryan is excited to dive into the often overlooked remarketing options for re-engaging those prospects who don't convert on their first visit to your commerce website. Contact Logical Position for remarketing needs at https://www.logicalposition.com/contact. Reach out to Ryan Garrow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryangarrow/ Transcript JON MACDONALD: Ryan, good to talk to you again. Today we're going to talk about remarketing and re-engaging your audience, how does that sound? RYAN GARROW: Man, nothing gets me more excited, John. [laughter] RYAN: Marketing is a huge piece of online marketing driving traffic, it's an often-overlooked piece of digital marketing. I'm excited to drive into some of these details with you and hopefully shed some light on the mystery that is remarketing for most companies. JON: I really want to talk about a few things today, what do you do when someone doesn't convert on your site? You spend a ton to get folks to a site but then when they don't convert on that first visit because let's face it, most visitors aren't going to convert on their first visit, how do you keep marketing to them and close the sale and get that conversion? As my understanding, and hopefully, you're going to school me on this today this is typically what is called remarketing and it can be extremely powerful when done right. I do know that, tell me a little bit about how you and the team at Logical Position define remarketing? RYAN: Man, nothing as a marketer can make you more frustrated than somebody not doing what you wanted them to do when they came to the site because he spent all this time and energy sculpting traffic, eliminating waste saying, "All right, they are searching for my exact product and service. They are ready to buy, they're ready to put a credit card in." To get you into the right category or the right product page and then conversion rates on websites dictate that for almost every company we work with over 90% of that traffic goes somewhere else to do something and not take an action, and it just is frustrating. Especially if you do some of those real-time heat map watching and watching people on your site behind the scenes, you just get frustrated like, "Why didn't you click that? What's wrong with you? You should have just gone and clicked add to cart and buy?" Remarketing ends up becoming the step in the process next. You almost need to look at remarketing as a bunch of different layers. It's not just one simple, "We're remarketing, we're good." There's search remarketing, there's remarketing through email, there's remarketing through display ads. There's so many different things you need to be doing and be aware of in the e-Commerce space to help bring those people back to the site and take the action you want. Each one of them needs to have a lens of what's the return, am I doing it properly, is it generating the type of return that I need it to be as its own entity? When you look at driving traffic through paid search, and I think one of our earlier podcasts we talked about all traffic is paid traffic. At this point, it is requiring some level of investment to get that traffic to your site. Whether that's just time, energy, money, thought, something's happening that you're putting out there to bring people in. Paid search, hopefully, there's a return that's making sense with paid search as its own entity, search shopping, Bing, Google, Yahoo, whatever that looks like for you hopefully there's a return that makes sense. An additional marketing piece needs to be re-marketing, and it needs to have a return that makes sense for the business and for the products and services that you're selling. Within that re-marketing entity, there's different layers within that that say, there's this type of re-marketing and this type of re-marketing and this type of re-marketing and each one of those has different expectations for return. It may be five years ago re-marketing was vanilla and now we have the Baskin Robbins if you're in the Oregon area and you know Baskin Robbins, there are 31 flavors. There's all these different things you can be doing with re-marketing that for some brands it's overkill, you don't have enough traffic to use all of these wonderful different things. Other brands are using just the most basic remarket and they should be using a really complex additional layers of re-marketing to help drive different types of traffic, different ways, with different expectations. Brands should be doing it and they should be doing it more than likely more complex than they are. I think on average, most companies are not utilizing all the things they can be doing, even just through the simple Google platform of re-marketing, there's a lot there. JON: I look at this as two sides. One is what is the data that you need to be tracking or where are the points where you can then have data to know who to remarket to and then on what channels can you be re-marketing? Maybe we break that down. What events or obviously, there's the simple page view. Somebody views a particular page like a product detail page, you can then start re-marketing that product to them. What are some other options there for how to get data to know who to remarket to? RYAN: For simplicity purposes right now let's just focus on the Google re-marketing platform. Most companies are at least familiar with it, most people probably understand conceptually what the Google re-marketing is inside the Google Ads platform. All re-marketing is dependent on the data you're putting into these lists that you're re-marketing to. If you've got really crappy lists, you're probably going to get crappy re-marketing results. Step one is understand how you are breaking up your data. I would say as a general rule, more granular is better because you can combine those audiences into bigger groups. If you have really granular data sets within your lists in audiences, wonderful, use those, make sure that are in there. You can always make bigger groups but if you don't have the small granular groups you can't get to them. At least set them up there whether you use them or not, at least get them in there. By granular groups I'm talking about you should have a list for shopping cart abandoners. When I say list, it's an audience within Google ads. Let's have one for shopping cart abandoners, let's have one for product viewers, people that have viewed a product page. Let's have one for people that viewed a category page and people that only view the homepage, what's on the homepage and left. Site depth would be a good way of looking at that, the deeper they go on the site, the more likely they are to convert through remarketing and the messaging is probably different. What we see when we do this, when we add these in, and we add the audiences in for not only display ad re-marketing, which is an important piece to follow people around appropriately, we'll talk about some of the details on what's appropriate and what isn't later, but also re-marketing lists for search ads. If people go back and there's a heavily researched product that, "Hey, I found this one, it looks like it's good, then let me go back to Google and do a couple more searches to make sure that I'm not leaving a lot on the table as far as options or price point," you can bid on those people differently based on where they went on your site now. What we see, generally speaking, you're going to have a higher return on re-marketing the further down into the site they went. For example, people that were a shopping cart abandoner that you're re-marketing to are probably going to have a higher return to re-marketing than the person that went just to the homepage and bounced, fits the logic generally too. JON: These are all intent signals, you're looking for high intent? RYAN: Yes, to a degree. If somebody comes through a shopping ad they're obviously going to land on a product page. That same searcher could also land through a text ad on a category page. The search is exactly the same, I'm looking for a purple widget. If I click a text ad, I should land on a category page for purple widgets but I could also have clicked a shopping ad and landed on a product page. Same search, same intent that we saw on Google went to different spots on the site, but if I landed them on a category page and then they went and clicked on a product page we're probably getting the same level of intent on a purchaser as word there. If I clicked on the product image with a price point off of Google to your site, probably likely that they're looking to purchase one rather than I'm clicking on a text ad because I'm going to go to a category and do some more research. Then if I bounce re-marketing maybe a little bit different than someone that took an extra step. JON: That covers what you should be looking at to form that audience as you call it. It's not a list because you don't know who's part of that audience specifically, you can't get the individuals. Google masks that and tells you generally how many people are in that audience, is that correct? RYAN: Yes. Then each audience will tell you how many people you can re-market to on the display network and YouTube versus on a remarketing list for search ad. Because then you might have a 100,000 people in that audience but maybe only 30,000 of them you can remark it to as a remarketing list for search ads type thing. There's always going to be different numbers around those because of how Google is collecting data and allowed to present information around that as a re-marketing list. If you have medical devices of some sort or you're treating some medical problems, you may not be able to remarket at all on Google because that could potentially be personally identifiable information. If you share a computer with somebody and you don't want them to know that you may be feeling sick, you may have these symptoms or you may need-- I'm older than my wife so maybe if I need a knee brace, maybe I don't want her to know that I'm getting old and fragile. [laughter] RYAN: Google won't let people remarket it to me cause my wife might see that. That type of thing is a limitation within remarketing based on some products. JON: We both know we're getting old and fragile so we'll leave it at that. In terms of the platforms of which you can then take that audience and market to them, I heard you say Search terms, search ads, I heard you say YouTube, obviously display ads. What other mediums can be used for remarketing? RYAN: YouTube is a big one that I think most companies overlook, and there's this general opinion or thought around YouTube being complicated or difficult because you have to create a video and there's that barrier to entry there. Creating a remarketing video is really not difficult, it can even be very basic, it doesn't have to involve human or video, it could just be static images with voiceovers or image textovers. There's a lot of things you can do to make a pretty basic video on YouTube that can still be effective but the cost of YouTube is so low that your reach can go so far. What I tell people about YouTube is you do remarketing true view, which means they have to watch a certain amount of your video to be counted as a view that you actually pay for so they skip it. Everybody's seen those videos on YouTube that you skip before watching the cat video your mom sent you that you have to watch because she's going to bring it up when you're at dinner tonight. If you skip it, they don't pay anything. There's still some forced branding though because you have to watch five seconds but if you watch it, and you can do all kinds of overlays and allow people to click and go right to the site and the product that they were viewing, but if you watch it, it usually costs $0.10 to $0.12 for that view. The average click on the display network can sometimes be up over $1, $1.50, and so lots of opportunity on Youtube that people don't pay attention to as much. YouTube, email, you can remarket through email. In certain areas, you can remarket on the display network through dynamic ads or static ads that show the product you're looking at, and you can also do a list that allows you to bid differently on them based on their behavior of your website in the past. JON: That sounds interesting, it can get really complicated then. Of those, what do you think is the most powerful or has the highest ROAS, return on ad spend. RYAN: That is really going to vary, it's my most often response but my least favorite response, is it just depends. Every online company's probably going to have slightly different numbers based on their products, based on their website, and their conversion rates. Generally speaking, I really like the remarketing list for search ads, especially if you have a research product. People are going through the process are going to do a lot of searches before they buy something, finding out if that person is valuable or not to be bidding on again, and so many companies don't look at this. You can actually take this list of all the people that have visited your site before, and let's just say you sell coffee cups-- I'm staring at one in front of me. You sell coffee cups and this person searched for white coffee cup, came to your site, didn't buy, that's a list I can put in there. If they go back to Google again and they search for gray coffee cup or red coffee cup-- you don't even have to change your bids in there and you can see them because normally you'd be bidding on them again anyway because they're searching for another coffee cup, which you sell. You can see, "The people that have been to my site that searched this term either perform better or worse than the average person searching for this product off of Google." If it does better, you catch them again in the research process, and they perform better you bid up on them, be more aggressive because the return is higher, you have more you can be spending on them. If it's worse and once they've been to your site and they leave they're not going to buy on their second visit, then you just save the money, don't bid on them at all. You can actually spend that money on acquiring a new person to the site rather than somebody that's already been there and you know is not going to buy based on the data you see. There's a lot of levers that Google is now giving us as marketers that really can get creepy to a degree, but also really gives us actual leverage to push more return when it's necessary and then pull back when it's not. I think that those search ad remarketing lists can be super powerful. You can even do your past customers. Google does have an email match, you can upload your past customers into Google and create an audience around them and say, these 100,000 people have bought from me over the past decade. I upload them to Google Match generally, it's about 50%. Let's just say you have 50,000 people in an audience, you can now bid on them differently based on their search. If you sell mattresses, they're going to buy a mattress one time every 10 years on average, even though we're supposed to buy it more often than. That list of people, if they're going off and you know that they've bought in the past and they're searching again for another product you sell, maybe you can bid more aggressively on them. Because now you sell pillows, for example, and they're searching for a pillow and are like, "I really did like that mattress and they also sell pillows. That's great, I had a great experience on the mattress, now I can buy pillows." You can bid more aggressively on them even though it's a general search on pillows that maybe you wouldn't spend a lot of money on just by itself, but knowing something about that customer gives you the ability to be more aggressive than your competitors. It's a phenomenal subset of the remarketing world because you have some information about them. JON: This sounds like its own specialty. Just running ads is a specialty that you have to know a lot about, but even just going into the remarketing this is way deeper than I would have thought. RYAN: Man, we have an omnichannel strategy group now internally at Logical Position and the reason they came about largely is because of all the demands of our clients trying to figure out how to get all of the use out of remarking that they could. They were having so many of these conversations with our clients saying, we need to be doing this, we need to be doing this and the strategists having to work with all of our teams like, "Hey, we just need a department that can do this." So we've scaled internally, we've got a whole group that handles strategy across all of our accounts and a lot of it is around remarketing. JON: That's great. RYAN: Just the things you can do that are-- again, I say it's creepy [chuckles] but really fantastic as far as the marketing person's concerned on the things you can do with these levers that Google gives you. JON: On the flip side of creepy, it could be helpful because you're reminding folks of where they were, what they were doing. In terms of conversions, we see at The Good that you only have a certain amount of time to convert someone on your site and that's a couple of minutes typically if that. If they get distracted they end up onto something else. It's often even just personally I forget what I was looking to do and then I see a remarket and I'm like, "I really needed that." Then I end up going back and completing it. It seems to me, I'm hearing, that there's a ton of data that can be collected to ensure proper remarketing, and you just listed off a ton of them. It gets real intricate pretty fast. JON: Folks usually default to thinking about remarketing only on Google, what other kind of tools do you think could be used for remarketing? I know there's other providers out there, there's other toolsets that aren't Google, display ad networks, and things of that sort. Am I right in that thinking? RYAN: You are. Google is probably one of the most well-known just because if you're spending money on ads it just becomes very easy to see there's a section for remarking on display ads in Google. Everybody tries to claim that they have the largest display network on the market. When you look at remarketing a lot of it is done on the display network with display ads. As you're reading an article on a new site or something you're going to see images that are ads all over as you're scrolling down. We've been doing that for a while, most people know about it, most sites, not all, but most sites aren't going to say no to a display network that wants to put some ads on their site. A lot of these ad buys are done behind the scenes on a secondary market that most people don't even-- it's like the matrix, most people don't even know it's there but all of these ad buys are happening in this big secondary market that's an ad desk that all these networks plug into and they all compete in real-time to whose ad's going to be where. It's crazy when you start looking under the hood of the display network world. From a remarket perspective most companies are aware of Google, not a bad place to start, it covers almost everything. There's a couple of other competitors in the display space of note that we come across most often, it's Criteo and AdRoll. Both of them have some good things and some drawbacks and they have some exclusive sites that may be Google doesn't have access to. By and large, most companies should at least start with Google because it's already there with every context that gives you an idea of how remarketing is going to work for you. AdRoll and Criteo can do arguably better ads. Google's use of the HTML5 stuff now can make pretty darn good ads if you have a good creative team but from what I've seen, you do go into buckets within Criteo and AdRoll. They say, here's the return you need, this is your bucket. Here's what we're going to do for you. Done. It goes and it just does a lot of work. You don't have a lot of extra leverage to push and pull within their platform. It's kind of a, "We do it for you", scenario and it can be good. The only thing I caution people to look at when they're at Criteo or AdRoll is generally those companies out of the box are taking full credit for a sale through remarketing for an impression. If I'm scrolling through and reading a website and I happen to see a remarketing ad from a company who I was on, I didn't click on it, I just kept scrolling and finished the article and then later that day I went and bought direct. I just typed the website in, went and bought and finished my transaction, generally, the pixel for AdRoll for Criteo will say, "Hey, Ryan went and bought and we did it. Our impression generated it and we claim 100% credit for that." Their report will generally say, and most marketing platforms take a lot of credit so you just have to understand how to look and filter that data to get a real number. Because you can see in Google Analytics the click data, "AdRoll and Criteo they had 50 clicks and this much revenue." Not hard but trying to assign a value to that impression becomes complicated and usually requires conversation. All that to say AdRoll, Criteo for the display products out there for remarketing along with Google. Yahoo in the past has done a lot through remarketing but they've shrunk down and they're not as impactful so generally, I would say for display, those three. Video remarketing generally lives on YouTube, there's not a lot of video re-marketers that compete yet with YouTube and the scope and size of them. Email remarketing has become a bigger and bigger player in the space. Most people that come to your site, you can get an ad in front of them through a display network. Regardless of what you choose, you can probably find a website that they're going to be visiting and you can get an ad on. If they have an ad blocker on you're probably not going to get that cookie, you're not going to be able to remarket to them. There's been recently over the last couple years, a couple of companies that have come up with the ability to send emails based on the pixels. They have a list of-- I think the latest I heard is somewhere around 300 emails, they have permission to email these people. These people have opted in and said, you can email me and they've been able to combine that with a pixel or a cookie saying, "Hey, they went on your website, they didn't buy. We can filter that against converters. Let's send them an email and say we'll give me 10% off if they want to buy." They email themselves on behalf of one of their partners, which would be you. It's actually been gaining some good traction and it's another opportunity to get in front of people that you couldn't get in front of before possibly or in a way that they're actually going to pay attention to. It is a little bit promo heavy so you might give a 10% off discount coupon code, but for many of these companies, they're willing to do it for free for a rev share. It's just an add on, "Hey, if we're going to get a 10x with a 10% off, we're going to get a 5x at the end of the day, that's not terrible." JON: I'm pretty sure this happened to me the other day because I was on a site, I didn't give them any information and I left. Then I got an email from them about an hour later just like, "Hey, noticed you were on our site and didn't buy, here's a discount if you want to come back." I was like, "How did they get my email?" That's pretty interesting. RYAN: If you looked at the bottom in the fine details of that email, you'll probably see that it came from a company you've never heard of on behalf of that company. JON: I see. RYAN: I think if you haven't tested it and you've got enough traffic, and enough traffic would be you've got 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 visitors a month to start generating a real number through remarketing, I would at least consider it at least testing it. That's my general rule with most marketing test and measure. If it's working do it better or more, if it's not working stop it and then maybe come back and revisit it later once you understand some of the things that may have caused it to not work well. As we live, especially as Americans in a very busy, complex society, our attention is being drawn all over the place. You and I both have kids, John, we're not sitting down in the evening doing anything without an interruption, we're not alone. Understanding that as our day - as I go between three screens and I've got phone calls and emails and SMS and text messages coming on my phone that's on the other part of my desk, I'm going to get interrupted in the process of purchasing something more than likely. Remarketing, I believe, is going to have a bigger and bigger place in the overall online marketing scheme over the next few years. We're not going to get less distracted as Americans, I don't think. Understanding the appropriate way to get in front of people in the way they want to be communicated with. Text remarketing is becoming a bigger, bigger thing, especially with millennials that want to be communicated over on their phones almost exclusively. It's fun but complex. JON: I was going to ask you SMS like Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, all those are platforms you can do remarketing on too, is it not? RYAN: You can. Social remarketing has been a big one. In a lot of companies, I suggest that that's the way they test social marketing. If you've not done ad buys through Facebook and Instagram yet, an easy way to test it and the validity and what return you can get is start by remarketing on them. Again, we'll go by my coffee cup example, if you're selling coffee cups and you're going to remarket them on Facebook, these people have been to your site, they've seen your product, they know who you are, they haven't bought yet. If you put an ad in front of them on Facebook and Instagram to try to draw them back and that ad does not work at a profitable level or rate that makes sense, the chances of going out and finding a broad swath of customers that have never heard of you before to buy at a rate that makes sense for you is much lower. If remarketing works, that tells me that there could be some potential to draw in or prospect new customers off of social channels through ads. There's always some ways you can do without ads, but at least through ads. It's a good way to test it all and see if that can make sense for your brand. JON: Okay. This has been really educational for me, I appreciate that. I'm now wondering what budget should be reserved for remarketing versus driving initial traffic? Is it maybe a percentage that someone should be setting aside of their total budget spend on traffic? What do you typically see there or recommend? I know it varies but is there a general rule of thumb? People should be at least trying a certain percentage of their overall budget towards remarketing? RYAN: It's my wonderful it depends answer again, unfortunately, but the bigger and more complex and the more research that is done to make a purchase of your product or service, the more you're probably going to spend on remarketing. You want to be staying top of mind. If you're selling $10 coffee cups, you're probably not going to have a huge portion of your budget on remarketing. There's probably going to be somewhere between 5% and 15%. Again, there's going to be outliers on that. 100% of the time, there's always going to be outliers. Step one is just start doing it if you're not doing it and then understand that you need to have frequency caps so that you're not blasting somebody and spending $20 remarketing your $10 coffee cup in one day because you won't stop being in front of them. Understand that you're going to test and measure your promotions, sometimes you're going to need promotions to get people back to the site to buy something. Sometimes you won't, it's just timely like, "You forgot that something was in your shopping cart," or, "I was looking at that red shoe." Also, when you cross apps, bring apps into the space, that's another big one. I tend to be a sneakerhead and so I buy stuff on Nike's app and the remarketing potential within that space for them is even more creepy and awesome. Because they have all the first-party data around what am I doing on their app and on their website and what type of products do they want to prospect me with, "Hey, you've never seen this shoe. You should think about it." I'm a huge fan of Jordan 4s so anytime there's a new Jordan 4 release coming up they know they need to let me know about that before. Even though I've never seen the product they are remarketing to me with a brand new product because they have that data of what I've purchased in the past, so much opportunity in the space that you probably need to be a little bit uncomfortable with your remarketing budget. I love saying that to people because they're like, "I'm going to dedicate 10% to remarketing." That's good but if you see it working don't be afraid to go to 20%. Why not? If it's there and you can put money in front of it and you're getting a return that makes sense for your brand there's no reason not to do it. JON: It's an awesome way to just attack the people who are already interested. They're obviously already interested so get your ad back in front of them because they were already on your site. That's a great way to attack that marketplace that is there for more conversions getting back to your site, for sure. What's the biggest common mistake you see around remarketing? RYAN: Oversimplification. I think we've got the data, we've got all the levers we can push and pull to get the appropriate message in front of the appropriate person at the appropriate time. Often I see just blanket remarketing as the name of their campaign in [unintelligible 00:28:59] one campaign, all visitors in there, they have no frequency cap then it's like, "We spend $1,000 a day on our general marketing and we spend $100 a day on remarketing, done," and they just let it run. They just think that it is what it is, like we randomly get a sale, we don’t… It is probably necessary to build multiple campaigns for multiple audiences and change the messaging throughout the time to K model. Day one you have one message for them when they didn't buy. When they don't buy. If they don't buy you move them to your three-day remarketing lists with a messaging change or the ad changes, you're staying fresh. If they don't buy then they move to their seven-day remarketing list. You're always moving converters off of these lists as they go down, you can store pixel on somebody's site for 540 days. We have a long term pixel list that we use for friends and family events or discounts online or when they want to run a big promotion. We can get more aggressive with those people that have been to the site in the past when they're searching for a broad non-brand term or something. Not getting complex enough is one of the biggest issues most companies are having, there's a lot more leverage you can put into your re-marketing starting just with all that data that you're tracking. Having the granular list that allow you to do some of that really cool/ creepy re-marketing to make your company more impactful in this digital marketing, is traffic generation. JON: Ryan, this has been a super educational experience for me, I really appreciate you sharing your experience on remarketing and re-engaging your audience. I know this is something that you have that whole I'm Your Channel team you mentioned at Logical Position that handle this. People wanting to get a hold of you, ask you any additional questions, we'll put into the show notes how they can email you directly. It's been an amazing experience, I look forward to our next topic coming up here next week. RYAN: Thank you so much, John, I appreciate it. Any time I can get into the weeds on helping clients get more success from all of their marketing in general, I'm in for it. Having such conversations individually, with anybody listening, I'd love to because it's just fun for me. JON: All right. Thanks, Ryan. Talk to you soon. RYAN: Thank you.

LOVING & LIVING IN GOD’S BETTER WISDOM  - Eccl. 7:1-14 Well, good morning again to everyone watching online.  It’s good to have you joining us, whether you are a member, regular attender or someone “visiting” our live stream Sunday service today. In fact we have people from other parts of the world, including England and even India that tune into our livestream…so welcome all around the world! Now, before we start in our Bible passage this morning, I promised last week that we would give our church an update on the mission trip to India that myself and 4 others went on, just a few short weeks ago. So, here is one our team members to fill you in on that trip: VIDEO w/ slides interspersed. It was  such a pleasure to be on this team with Cindy, Kristie, Lisa and Ryan…It truly was life-changing for me as well. I wanted to add to what Cindy has said by showing you a few more pictures and stories of people we met during our time in India: The family on the left were new believers…They made breakfast for us while neighbors from the surrounding area, both Christians and Hindus came into the house for prayer… ON the right is a couple who were celebrating their 13th wedding anniversary. They invited us to the party and asked us to preach the word and pray over them during the party!  IN fact when we were late because our van broke down, the man left his own party and came and picked us up! This is a photo of some of the leaders of the church in one village. The family is prominent in the local village council and they lead worship for the church These two men had dramatic testimonies. The on on the right was demonized until Christ saved him…and the younger man on the right came to Christ after his wife nearly died in child birth…the older man shared the gospel with him in the local market. This is a plot of land donated by the older evangelist that is planned for a small church building. There were so many others!  I wish we could tell more stories of these precious believers, and how they endure opposition simply to live for Jesus. We are truly looking forward to more fruitful partnership with the seminary as it moves the Northeast, and with the mission work in the villages. And I also wanted to pass on my thank you to FCBC as I was able to arrange my flights on the way back to stop by our church in England, Bridgeway Church.  It’s been a year and half since we left the church we planned there to come back to the USA. I was able to gather with them for communion before their Sunday service Meet new babies born to some of the families since I left See that some who had fallen away have come back to following Christ Get to preach to a gathering and worship with them even in the midst of many being absent due to the Corona virus scare I can report that they are now flourishing, growing and experiencing God’s grace. The elders, my friends Adam and Danny, that are leading are doing an amazing job and the whole church is growing together.  They’ve added to their numbers with new members in the short time since we’ve been gone! They pass on their thanks for sending me there on a Sunday to preach the word to them… And honestly, one of the greatest things in both places, India and England, was the worship!  Here is a brief clip with a little taste of each: VIDEO As I experienced all this I asked myself the question….WHICH WAS BETTER?…Being in a new culture and serving with our mission partners in India.  The absolutely electric joy in their sung worship that was so powerful….or visiting the church we planted in England and having an emotional reconnection and seeing God’s work there? Hearing them sing with beautiful simplicity, but also very loud! I can’t really say which is better…. Is one really better than the other? Like a lot of choices, there are many factors and it can be a matter of perspective.. On a less serious note its like asking: Do you like coffee from Black Rock or from Push and Pour? Would you want a take out pizza from Blaze or MOD pizza? Subway or Blimpie? These things are trivial, but we ask those questions.  Which is better? And that actually leads us to our text of scripture this morning in Ecclesiastes chapter 7, where we will be talking about: Loving and Living God’s Better Wisdom. I’ll show you what I mean after I read our passage for today. READ 7:1-14 This passage is filled with comparisons, and we will spend the majority of our time taking about them. But, this passage is also full of the tensions we have come to expect in the book of Ecclesiastes. And let me remind us quickly of that tension and the context of this book as we start. Because as one commentator said, “chapter 7 is the most difficult passage in a difficult book.” Why is this chapter so difficult? Why is this book so difficult? There are many reasons, but here are a few that reveal themselves both in chapter 7 and overall for us to remember This book is Hebrew wisdom literature. It has a poetry all its own that is not readily recognizable in English or in our culture. There is confusion about the purpose of this book. Is it 11 chapters of bad theology, just to show us to fear God and walk with him as the outcome statement in chapter 12 says?  Or is there a God-centered reality weaved throughout the entire book? This book can seem overly pessimistic and we fight against that knowing the whole redemptive story of God. We want to get to the place where we things are not futile in Christ.  Not meditate on the futility of life under the sun. We ask ourselves, do we really want to sit at the feet of a jaded, cynical teacher like Solomon when have such clear teaching in the New Testament to meditate on?    I believe the answer is yes! I believe this is a part of God’s word that helps us in the long run. We perhaps prefer the book of Proverbs that tells us how to navigate life when things are going well….but we need Ecclesiastes when we are struggling to comprehend the meaning in life. And we need to read it rightly…. In Ecclesiastes God has not sent us an angry prophet, but he has sent us a thoughtful teacher to expose the futility of life and point us to God infused wisdom once again.  It can seem bleak, but this is God’s way of pointing us to the ultimate wisdom in Christ that gives meaning to life in the here and now, and for eternity. And in here in chapter 7 the preacher uses a handful of comparisons to point us to a wise life.  A good life. It begins a section of this book that is less tightly organized and seems a little more like the book of Proverbs with its punchy statements.  Each one could be a sermon or a study, but there still does seem to be an overall connectedness to it.  In a series of “this is better” statements, we are getting the further answer to the question that he asked in chapter 6 verse 12: “For who knows what is good for meanwhile he lives the few days of his vain life, which passes like a shadow?” Having shown us in chapter 6 our hearts sickened discontent and started pointed us to the solution of coming under God’s rule and his knowledge of our lives, in Chapter 7 he presses the point in further. And we need to pay close attention because many of his statements are counter-intuitive.  They don’t seem right…but maybe that’s because our hearts don’t always love the right things.  WE need to change what we love, specifically to Love God’s good wisdom more than our own.  And that’s what we see in verses 1-6.  The preacher wants our hearts to get to the place where we are: Loving God’s Good Wisdom (v. 1-6) And the first category we see that our heart loves need to be changed is to 1 - Love God’s name better than our fame Look in verse 1 This is actually a double comparison even though they don’t seem connected. And it gets the heart of what we love the most.  You see we all want to have a good name in one way or another. And on a level that is fine.  We want to be known for: being hard-working being a good husband, wife, parent or child Or simply smelling good - even today doing live stream I got a shower and put on cologne! But we also have this part of us that wants our name spread for our fame.  Just look at how we react when we get a “like” on a social media post, we get that retweet, or comment on Instagram about how people think we are beautiful, wise, or funny. And those “names” we get for ourselves, whether matters of work family or instant gratification are like the ointment in our passage. In the ancient culture this is written in, this ointment or oil is the perfume that people bought, sometimes with medicinal effects. It smells wonderful, it’s expensive and a lot of effort goes into getting it. but it doesn’t last that long.  Maybe a couple hours, or if you put a lot on like a teenage boy or girl. But here the writer challenges our desire for momentary fame and the spread of the glory of our own name, and calls us to love the legacy of a lasting name. And the idea is that every comment we make or action we take is building a character that leaves a legacy of self or of God. You see, we as believers should all be known more for our: joy rather than critical nature Generosity rather than stinginess hospitality rather than self-isolation (except for during Corona virus!) That should be our character and the fragrance we spread…And finally as this passage says, on the day of our death this should be a good legacy… finally sealed on the day of our death, when our tombstone is carved and the small dash of our lives between the date of our birth and the date of our death is over. But, instead of daily building a legacy of little acts, our days start with grabbing our phones, reading the news and weather, going off to work, coming home exhausted, eating some food, maybe go to Life group if you can manage, coming home even more tired so you watch some tv, and then you can’t sleep and you watch you’ve clips or look for what you can buy on Amazon, before eventually falling to sleep to wake up exhausted the next day…!  All these little perfume shots all day long to keep us going, and are what we live for! The preacher says, you need a different legacy! You need a different name… And in the Bible’s terms, a lasting name come through God loving us and us loving God and his name.  All throughout scripture, the people with a good name are those that had hearts changed to love God. Think about Abraham - who went from being an idol worshipper to a friend of God Moses - who went from being a murderer to a leader of God’s people David - who though he failed tragically he was a man after God’s heart And I love particularly the story of the woman in Luke 7 and Mark 14. She started as a woman of bad character, who when she came to Jesus the first time, she had to fight through the condemning glares of the religious people around her.  But yet she wept at the feet of Jesus and poured out costly perfume at his feet. She was loved by Jesus and and forgiven by Jesus in that moment!  Then later we see her loving Jesus by pouring perfume on his head to anoint him for his burial.  I love that Jesus tells this woman, that because of this act of love..that this story will be told wherever the gospel goes!  That is a legacy changed.  A good name given through the forgiveness and love of Christ. That’s how a good name happens.  A good name is not to us trying to keep up a reputation, or an appearance…but about loving god and his glory because He has loved us in Christ so well. That is what we have in the gospel.  So we don’t have to be anesthetized by the perfumes of the culture around us, but we can love the name of God, who gives us a good name.  Then when we really believe this,  we can live in that daily and build a legacy for His glory. The preacher continues in verses 2-4 with more wisdom Specifically that our hearts should: 2-4 - Love sad lessons better than superficiality Let me read again verses 2-4… This is where it gets really counter-intuitive.  We don’t like this comparison….How is better to go to the house of touring rather than the house of feasting…But remember it is a comparison.  This isn’t saying that it wrong to enjoy life (we’ll see that later). Jesus himself was at feasts very often in his life on the earth. BUT, it is saying that one is better than the other in this life under the son. That the house of mourning (a funeral) is better than the house of feasting (a birthday party) This is particularly hard for a culture like our that does everything it possibly can to domesticate, deny, or run from death like the plague. I am convinced that part of our reaction to the current COVID -19 crisis is not only because it is a a serious disease that is sadly taking the lives of many people….but also because we can’t handle the hard straight look into the face of death that this pandemic is giving us. We are the opposite of the medieval culture that actually had a booklet called the “art of dying” that warned about temptations that could arise for dying people, pointed them to seek forgiveness through confession of sin, and instructed on prayers you could pray modeled on Christ’s 7 prayer from the cross. They thought about death, and they considered death, and it made them prepare for it before it ever came to them. But we run from this, don’t want to talk about this, never see death (until now), and think it isn’t relevant to us. And because we aren’t prepared, when the rattle of death starts to ring loud like it is in culture today, we don’t know where to turn. Luther said we should: “Invite death into our presence while it is still at a distance” This is the reality that Psalm 90 brings to bear on us….”Teach us to number our days and thus gain a heart of wisdom.” What the preacher is saying is that we can learn more at one funeral than we can at 100 birthday parties…That’s hard for us to believe.  We would all rather go to a birthed or anniversary celebration. And now he says, we need to love this reality…But How can I love these sad lessons you might say? I do this by remembering the lessons learnt from several funerals of people I love.  For example: My Pop-pop. He died when I was in my early twenties.  Sadly he had a heart attack in the parking lot of a grocery store and was found in his car later.  When I went to his funeral, I was doing ok….until they actually lowered his casket into the ground and then it was buried.   I LEARNED FROM THIS THE FINALITY OF DEATH. In a way I never would have learned this… It made me want to make sure people knew about Jesus Christ. My Grandmother - She was an ardent unbeliever for much of here life. My parents prayed for years for her.  Sadly she got a cancerous growth on her forehead, which led to a surgery, where our her forehead lost much of its mass.  But through this tragedy, she began to go back to God…To read her Bible, confess Jesus as savior, and go The power of the gospel and a changed legacy An alcoholic man that we ministered to in England. The first time we met him he was in the gutter outside the church. He would come and weep when he would her the Bible, but sadly we could never tell what he believed.  And one day he passed away in his apartment.  We went to the funeral and realized how all alone he was and as the priest gave a message of absolution for a man he did not know, I realized the loneliness of death and the deception of religious false hope. A Dear Lady in India. While not a funeral, it was surely the house of mourning.  We had the sad opportunity and privilege to pray for a woman who was in the back of a residence with a massive cancerous growth on her cheek.  I learned that there is only HOPE ONLY IN CHRIST. When all the western medication is not available, when there are no hospital beds, only concrete floors…There is only Christ to hope in. These kind of lessons can only be found in the house of mourning.  It is not better in regards to being more enjoyable, but you can love the lessons learned through being there. Next he goes on to say that if we are to have our hearts changed to love God’s wisdom, our hearts will learn to: 5-6 - Love hard truths better than hilarity Read verses 5-6 again… I am someone who loves a meme more than anyone else..I love sharing them, emojis, jokes and ways we can have a little levity and share some fun together. I’m sure we’ve been doing this a lot during our time of isolation and staying at home. But if I am on my death bed and really throughout my life, I want someone to speak to me - not jokes, not the drunken songs of fools, but something with real substance. Real wisdom that has weight. That’s what the “Crackling of the thorns under the pot, being the laughter of fools means. He is comparing the light hearted way that people deal with their lives with the way the ancient culture had their version of a microwave meal. They would gather thorns and light them up, they would flame hot, but go out very quickly….That is all that foolishness gets you.  A little heat without any real substance…and that’s our culture of laughter. The preacher isn’t saying something that should be considered new to us as NT believers, because Jesus himself said: “Woe to you who laugh now because you will  out and weep” The serious attitude of Ecclesiastes is encouraging us to think about life and death. Some people just caught heir lives away…IN fact that is the norm.  One of the worst things you could be labelled as in our culture is NOT FUN….And why is that so bad? Why is it so important..? Of course we should have joy…but is life a joke?  The fool thinks it is. But there is nothing funny about life and death.  The preacher says, you need to learn to listen to rebuke from the wise. Godly criticism, which is counter-intuitive wisdom. Jesus said things we didn’t want to hear, like “repent, the kingdom of God is at hand…” And this writer in Ecclesiastes has done the same thing all along…telling us we often pursue futility.,.. So that leads to a question.  Who are the wise people that you pursue to tell you the hard truths?  Men and women who will tell you not what you want to hear, but what you need to hear… Being people who ask questions and ask for help…Not being like people in our culture just want to spout their opinions, and and are internet experts in life. People who say I will figure it all out myself…I don’t need to listen to others. Then we get offended with those who have experience and can bring wisdom to bear on us… No, as God’s people we need to love God's wisdom, to be those that can say with God’s word - tell me anything from the word, every bitter word will be sweet to me. And as God’s people we need to realize that the light heartedness we see in our culture about every bit of life is not necessarily the whole story in the Bible. The overarching tone in scripture is full of joy and feasting and laughter, but is very serious. It tells us of a world all around us that is dying.  Our neighbors are dying with out Jesus Christ, in the futility under the sun that the preacher talks about. Jesus tells us to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and die….to be able to go to people and say…MY life looks joyful, but also serious.  That’s because I am living for more than the concerts and songs and laughter of fools. Well, that first section in verses 1-6 told us how our hearts loves need to change to love God’s upside down wisdom…But as we move on, we see our second main point.  We need to also be brought around to: Living Contentedly in God’s Good Wisdom (v.7-12) 7- 8— Live Content that the long game is better Reading verses 7-8 again we some some points that will be more quick hit points to remind us that once our hearts our changed to love what God loves - you love the truth being told to you, you love the lessons you learn through sorrow - as you love them, you can live out a life content with God’s better wisdom. Verse 7 makes a reference to the fact that even wise people can be bribed and corrupted, and the end is the better.  The outcome of our lives and the end needs to be pointed to.  Wise people need to get to the end as well. I can live in this present moment because there is more going on than this moment tells me.  As Romans 8:28 says, all things are working for good for those that love God and are called according to His purpose. It is clear that here the author is saying even for wise people things can go poorly, but wait for the outcome. Parents, are you discouraged at the season of your kids lives? Wait for the final outcome, you don’t really know how He might work. Who is to say the outcome won’t  be good by God’s grace. In any ministry. Like I experienced in church planting.  There were so often trials, difficulty and even opposition.  Many times I wondered how can this small weak group of people including myself do anytime for God’s glory.  But then a year and a half later, got the opportunity to see that they are flourishing, growth is happening, the elders are leading well, and God is at work. Praise God for the end and the outcome! Whatever the case, whatever the situation, we need to keep in mind the words of Romans chapter 5:1-5: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” You see, the long game is what God is all about.  He pours out his love by the Spirit, through Christ, in us and then we can recognize that this endurance and persevering patient spirit is what we need. Because the proud man says I need to manipulate my life right now and control it…if not there will be consequences for those around me.. That’s how the preacher continues in verses 9-10, where he teaches us to 9-10 - Live Content that the present is better When we realize that we can be patient, play the long game by the grace of God.  We don’t have this unsettled dissatisfaction that increases in our impatience to anger… We look at dead end jobs, money being tight, kids and family being a mess, health issues, Corona virus….We look at all this and if we are not patient we can develop an angry resentful sprite because we don’t like our reality and we can’t escape our reality. And the preacher says “Don;t say the former day were better…” There is one temptation to look forward and say, I will make things better…then it will be good. The other temptation is to look back in nostalgia and say wouldn’t it be great if things were like they used to be….BEFORE CORONA VIRUS! But were you really happy then? See, glorifying one time over another in our lives is an illusion and it robs us of the joy living for God in the present today. This is the shadow of the passing life that the writer talked about in 6:12. The writer is making the “uncle Rico” joke.  He is painting the picture of a man looking back to his high school glory days, who would have been a starter on the team…who thought he was all full of glory in school! But high school ended, and in fact it will end for everyone…it doesn’t last!  And instead of trying to hang on to that glory, learn the lessons of life that will equip you with the wisdom and skills to really live in the present every day after you have left school. So the question is are you living in the wisdom of God now to see his glory and future come to pass in your life…Are you patiently waiting for God’s plan to come to pass in your life. Be patient: In your sanctification - with yourself With your husband, wife and children IN the mist of your isolation Finally he says in verses 11-12: 11-12 - Live Content that your benefit package is better I’m sure many of you will thankfully receive a check from the government as part of the stills package that is happening.. I’m sure you have already calculated it and know how much that will be.   You know what your “benefit package” will be - what you are entitled to. And that is fine and good.  If you have out a job or business or just need some help that is God’s gracious and sovereign provision for you right now. This passage tells us that money CAN provide protection - literally a shadow over us in our lives. He compares money and wisdom in a good way here…Money does mean something…but wisdom means more. The same way that chapter 6 said our life is a shadow, now it says there is a shadow bigger than that.  Bigger than the shadow of protection money can provide.  It’s the picture of a massive umbrella covering us right when the storm breaks and it rains cats and dogs on us. Throughout this book money has been decried as our hope, and here it is seen simply as less of a protective shield than the spiritual wisdom i God’s word that can guard you in this life and lead you to eternal life. Finally, what is the summation of all of this? We need to be: III.   Living IN and Loving God’s good work in the world (v. 13-14) We read verses 13-14 again, and the writer goes back again to what we remember from chapter 6. It echoes the same truth that God is in control. The futility and the crookedness we feel in this life is instituted by God.  That is a part of his active work.  He passively allows this reality of futility to continue so that we have to learn his wisdom and learn to love his wisdom that we might live the good life, respecting and considering that this is all from his hand. Human experience is twisted and bent, the world is full of death and sorrow the writer has said. But God operates on a level infinitely above us. He says “My thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not your ways…” No amount of us sanitizing our lives, or isolating ourselves from the realities of life can change God’s work and what he is doing in the midst of this brokenness.  So we need to see what God is possibly doing right now. Take for instance this quote attributed to  CS LEWIS, from all the way back in 1942. (Note: after the preaching of this sermon, the author found out that this quote was mis-attributed to CS Lewis.  Apologies for this mistake, but the sentiment and point in the sermon remain.) “Satan says: I will cause anxiety, fear and panic I will shutdown business, schools, places of worship, and sports events. I will cause economic turmoil. Jesus says: I will bring together neighbors, restore the family unit, I will bring dinner back to the kitchen table I will help people slow down their lives and appreciate what really matters. I will teach my children to rely on me and not the world I will teach my children to trust me and not their material resources.” So, God is at work!  Can we consider that today…. Why can we love his better wisdom, why can we live contentedly in his better wisdom? Because He is at work!  Sometimes the work seems good to us and feels great.  Sometimes we are called to acknowledge all his good gifts…Many of us were in a season of that only a few weeks ago. But the problems arise and disaster strikes, call out to God, as verse 14 says. God has made one as well as the other….! We see this, we accept that, but what can make our hearts get into this place where we love the hard truths God speaks to us, where we love learning the lessons of life through sorrow and suffering…Where we love living in his wisdom, not in the future or the past..but today for His glory.  What can give us a legacy like that, and for our kids and our grandkids one day?  What can do that work in us? ONLY UNDERSTANDING THE LOVE OF CHRIST FOR US IN THE GOSPEL CAN DO THIS. Seeing someone spend their legacy and give up their good name for you, will do that. Maybe you are cold, struggling to live for Jesus.  maybe you don’t like his wisdom in this present moment and want t live for the future or the past…what can you do?  Look at Jesus! To illustrate how this change takes place, I’’l use an illustration I heard from another preacher.  From the movie Iron Man. The main character Tony Stark was stuck in a cave taken captive by terrorists and told he had to build them a bomb.  He didn’t want to do that. So he secretly was contrasting a suit that would help him get out of there.  an Iron suit.  he did this with the help of an other scientist in the cave.  Well just as they were about to complete this suit, they heard the enemy coming.  The scientist proceeded to take a gun and hold them off so that Tony could finish the suit.  He did and he got out of there…but the scientist was shot and dying. As he approached this dying man, he said thank you…thank you for saving me….And the man responded with one phrase… DON’T WASTE IT… And he didn’t! He went on to be Iron Man!  But the point is, the sacrifice of one man changed the heart of another man to want to live for a legacy beyond himself.  It was love that changed his hearts loves, and then he went and applied all the wisdom he learned i that cave to the rest of his life. May we love God and his better wisdom.  Christ the wisdom of God.  The expression of the counter intuitive wisdom of God, who gave up his own glorious name and took on no reputation to pay for your sin by coming to die for us in his love…. All he asks is a changed heart, a response that says I will live for his glory, a legacy in the line of all those wit changed hearts and good lives and good names that point to Christ. May God give us his Spirit in this season to do that in all the ways we can in the limited sphere we all have now in the midst of this current season of suffering… Amen Application Questions: What aspect of God’s better wisdom seems hard to love naturally for you? How has hearing the wisdom of God in this chapter spoken  to you today? Where do you see Jesus as the fulfillment of God’s better wisdom in Eccl. 7? What work are you aware that God is doing in your midst through your joys or adversities right now?

In this episode, Kyle sits down with Dr. Ryan Westrum, Psychedelic Integration Therapist. In the show, they talk about topics and teachings from Ryan’s book, The Psychedelic Integration Handbook. 3 Key Points: The Psychedelics Integration Handbook is designed to bring psychedelic experiences into the flow of your life and maximize their potential for helping you create the life you want to live. There is an important part in distinguishing integration from aftercare. Aftercare can look as simple as taking care of your body, getting good rest, eating well. You can't integrate without taking care of yourself first. One of the pillars of integration is PREP (purpose, reflecting on experiences, expectations, potential). Support the show Patreon Leave us a review on iTunes Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics Show Notes About Ryan Ryan is a Clinical Psychologist in the Minneapolis area He has been a licensed Marriage Therapist for 15 years He works in the realms of psychedelics and sexuality He has a 14 year old daughter, and likes to take a psychedelic approach to parenting He holds healing circles with mothers and fathers and their child(ren) Psycho-ed and harm reduction are his focus with families This is a group of people that need an honest conversation At a young age he was into Stan Grof and Jungian literature and psychedelic experiences His graduate program was focused on non-ordinary states of consciousness Kyle mentions a good book, The Smell of Rain on Dust: Grief and Praise “As a western civilization, we have really minimized the opportunity for growth, the expansion of consciousness, and to be ourselves.” - Ryan These experiences are powerful, and to come back to a culture that does not support it, is hard The goal is being conscious with your confidence of why you're doing this work About the Book The Psychedelics Integration Handbook is designed to bring psychedelic experiences into the flow of your life and maximize their potential for helping you create the life you want to live This is not a book with black and white answers but an offering to individual people who want to explore all the possibilities for being alive and seeking wholeness. The Psychedelics Integration Handbook contains historical perspective, maps of consciousness, approaches for integrating body-mind-spirit, and practical suggestions for all stages of psychedelic exploration. The Psychedelics Integration Handbook The book was written for people to make it their own Its broken into 3 parts, educational, a ‘your turn’ section, and then integration Its about having a compartment, and then playing within the compartment Everyone has unique nuances, integration looks different to everyone Integration practices don't matter if they don't personally mean something to you Integration The question to help determine the integration needs is, "What does the individual lead with?" It's the mind, body, emotion in the spirit altogether Immediately after a psychedelic experience, some want to talk about it, others embody it Do they lead with thoughts or emotions? There is a part in the book: The difference between integration and aftercare How do we distinguish between self care and integration? Is my body rested? Am I comfortable? Are my needs taken care of? Aftercare is grounding “If you're not taking care of your body, you won't be able to integrate” - Ryan It might not be as complex as it needs to be, its as simple as taking care of yourself An important part of aftercare, is asking yourself when it is okay to practice again Ryan was mentored by James Fadiman, and he believed in taking big doses every 6 months One of the pillars is PREP (purpose, reflecting on experiences, expectations, potential) Ryan says he is not the gatekeeper Controlling willpower is a huge step in integration Some people want to just take psychedelics, but not write, or do yoga, or do any other mindful activity Safety Dose, set and setting are the obvious It's like a goldrush, some just want to jump in blindly You have to understand what safety means to you Ryan thinks we aren't talking enough about the recreational use He is excited about all of the conversation on therapeutic use, but he thinks we are ignoring recreational use He wants to see ritual and reverence in the recreational community Preparation is so important Kyle says that a lot of times after an experience he has all of these ideas for how to live his life, and he tries to practice them, but sometimes he finds himself slipping into old patterns of behavior Ryan says he believes there is still movement and progress, be gentle with yourself Links Healing Souls LLC Psychedelic Integration About Ryan Dr. Ryan Westrum, PhD, LMFT, is an internationally recognized psychedelic integration expert. For more than 15 years, his primary focus has been working with individuals and groups facilitating experiential therapy and integrating psychedelic journeys into healing and personal transformation. Ryan speaks on a myriad of topics and leads experiential groups, like dreamwork integration therapy and psychedelic integration groups.       Get a 30 day free audible trial at audibletrial.com/psychedelicstoday

GUEST BIO: Ryan Levick is a developer advocate working in Berlin.  Ryan joined Microsoft as a result of its acquisition of Wunderlist in 2015.  Ryan has spent his career building apps on both the server and client side and exploring a wide range of open source technologies with a particular focus on functional programming.   Ryan has a passion for the Rust programming language, which he often writes about on Twitter and on his blog, and speaks about at conferences. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Ryan Levick. He came late to programming, having worked in marketing, communications, and business. Despite this, after just a few years of programming, Microsoft asked them to join them as a senior engineer. They did so when they acquired 6Wunderkinder, which included Wunderlist, which Ryan was working as a backend engineer. Today, he is a Principal Cloud Developer Advocate. Over the years, he has used numerous languages, including, Ruby, Rails, Scala, Elixir, JavaScript and many others. He is currently learning and working with Rust. As well as working in the Cloud. Primarily, using Azure but he is also learning other competing cloud platforms. Ryan is also a conference speaker. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (1.11) – So Ryan, can I ask you to expand on that brief intro and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Ryan explains that he studied marketing, so that is the sector he began working in, when he left university. Around that time, he moved to Berlin and joined a start-up called 6Wunderkinder. That was when he first started to learn to programme. In time, he became a full-time programmer for them working on their Wunderlist project. (1.41) - I don't know anything about 6Wunderkinder or Wunderlist, can you give us an overview of what they're about? It is a small company that focuses on building productivity software. In 2015, it was acquired by Microsoft, which is when Ryan secured the first of the 3 jobs he has had with Microsoft. (2.02) – Can you please share a unique career tip with the I.T. career audience? Learn as much as you can and spread out in weird and strange directions. Even if what you are learning is not immediately useful, it may be one day. This will push you to explore areas of computer science and programming you would not have otherwise looked at. (2.45) – Is this something you do yourself? Yes, all the time. (3.04) – Do you focus on the strange and unusual? If yes, how do you do that? Ryan explains that he picks up on new trends all sorts of people are talking about, then explores as many of them as possible. Usually, even if something is not ready for real-time use there are still lessons to be learned from that technology. The trick is to learn about something, then generalize that knowledge. Doing this enables you to apply it elsewhere. He always stops and asks himself how he can apply what he has learned to real-time applications and his job. (4.31) – Can you tell us about your worst career moment? And what you learned from that experience. Ryan says he hesitates to say worst because his worst career moment actually turned out to be an amazing experience. Recently, he became the manager of a small team. A role he really enjoyed, but the problem was that running his team did not leave him enough time to be hands-on and continue to learn. As a result, he feels he can categorize this experience as his worst career moment. (5.29) – So, stepping away and being more managerial is not necessarily something you want in the future? Ryan explains that he was continuing to learn new skills. About people management, career growth and things like that. But, he found that he was not waking up in the morning wanting to rush to the office like he used to. Ryan thinks it is important to find things that make you feel enthusiastic and stick to doing them. (6.08) – What was your best career moment? Ryan says he has been lucky enough to have had quite a few career highlights. For example, it felt great when Microsoft took over 6Wunderkinder and offered him a job straight away. He had only been programming for a few years, yet was still asked to become a senior engineer for Microsoft. It proves that, in this industry, if you work hard you do not necessarily need a computer science degree to be able to succeed. (7.04) - So presumably, you were able to demonstrate your value to Microsoft? Ryan explains that he was able to do exactly that primarily by showing them that he looked for and recognized new angles. He did this primarily by not being afraid to ask the so-called dumb questions, the ones nobody else wanted to ask. It turns out that, most of the time, dumb questions are the right questions, (7.51) – Can you tell us what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers? The fact that things can change almost literally overnight is something that Ryan finds exciting about working in the IT industry. A few months ago he started a new job as a Developer Advocate. Even in that short period of time, the role has already evolved and changed significantly. The pace of change is amazingly fast. So, you never stop learning, which is exciting. (8.40) – Is there any technology or direction that particularly interests you? At the moment, Ryan is fascinated by a technology called web assembly. It enables you to run programs in a very controlled way. Web Assembly has the potential to drastically change the world of IT. Including how things are done on servers, in web browsers, and on people’s computers. It is such a young technology that it is hard to tell what direction it will go in. (9.36) – A lot of companies now have Developer Advocates. How do you see that influencing the way in which people develop their careers? It is very important for companies that offer products and services to developers to build a strong and close relationship with them. One of Microsoft’s aims is to provide value to developers and other IT professionals. To give them the tools they need to succeed and change things for the better. In order to do that, Microsoft has developed the Azure platform, Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code. But, it is not enough to simply deliver these tools. You need to be sure that they are what IT professionals actually need. If you do not have a constant dialogue with these people, there is no way that you can serve them well. So, Ryan feels that one of his key roles is to have an honest dialogue with them. To figure out what is working for them and what is not and take that feedback back to Microsoft. Phil finds that interesting because, to date, developer advocacy has not been explained to him in that way. Others who fulfill this role have described it more as an evangelical role. To Phil it sounded like it was all about sharing a company’s latest products and ideas with IT professionals, rather than acting as a two-way feedback channel. Ryan explains that he does both. He showcases their products and helps IT professionals to recognize and unlock their true potential. But, if something is not up to standard, he  also wants to hear about it. So, that he can make sure that the product is updated and improved. (12.05) – What drew you to a career in IT? Ryan says it was curiosity that led him into the IT sector. He remembers looking over his colleague's shoulder at Wunderlist, realizing he did not understand what they were typing on the screen and started wondering how everything works. So, decided to find out. When he peeled the first layer back he just ended up with even more questions. His curiosity drew him in deeper and deeper. Now he realizes you can never know everything about computers and technology. It is impossible to hold it all in your head. Something that excites and drives him on. (12.53) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? Constantly put yourself in a position to learn the right skills. The skills that you think will be applicable to your future career. Don’t get into the position where you spend all of your time maintaining a legacy system or working on something that will only ever be used inside the company you work for. If you do that, finding and moving on to a new role will become very difficult. Make sure that you are always learning new transferable skills. (14.06) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Ryan says he would definitely get involved in what he is doing now – developer relations. He really enjoys working in this field. In particular, having a legitimate excuse to spend all day speaking to people about things he feels passionate about. Things they are passionate about too. It is the perfect opportunity to be continually learning. Ryan prefers being out talking to people to just sitting in front of a screen in a dark room. That kind of IT career is not the one he wants. (15.18) – What are you currently focusing on in your career? Right now, Ryan is focusing on growing his presence in the communities he cares most about. He is trying to become more t-shaped. That means continuing to maintain a wide breadth of knowledge while diving deep on one, maybe two, particular subjects. Right now, for Ryan, that means learning everything he can about cloud technology. That includes Azure of course. But, also his competitor’s technologies like AWS and Google’s cloud platform. He wants to make sure that when he needs to do so, he will have the right type of knowledge to easily switch to another job. Ryan is also working to grow his presence in the IT communities he is most interested in. That includes the Rust programming language community. He has been using this new language since late last year. (16.24) – What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? For Ryan, the ability to listen has been critical to his success. He has noticed that a lot of developers talk too much. They forget to take a step back and just listen. Even if you are an expert in your choosen field that does not mean that you cannot learn from other people. The technology sector is so big and varied that you will rarely be the smartest person in the room. There are always subjects about which others are more knowledgeable than you. It pays to take a step back and just listen and ask questions and grow your understanding. (17.48) – Phil asks Ryan to share a final piece of career advice with the audience. Without wishing to sound like a broken record – don’t be afraid to explore. Find something you feel passionate about and dive deep into it. But, be sure to learn other things too. There is no harm in being a scatterbrain. If you believe you have covered a subject enough, don’t feel you have to stick with it forever. Instead, move on and learn something else. You will find that one set of knowledge feeds into your new subject. Ryan’s advice is to do as much as you can. Don’t worry about catching it all the first time around. Just explore, have fun and revisit it at a later date. BEST MOMENTS: (2.15) RYAN – "Try to learn as much as you possibly can and expand out into weird and strange directions." (5.23) RYAN – "If I'm not having fun at work, then I'm just not going to do as good of a job as I possibly can." (7.39) RYAN – "It turns out that most of the time the dumb questions are the right ones." (13.06) RYAN – "Constantly put yourself in the position to learn the right skills." (17.22) RYAN – "When you do talk, instead of talking at people, try to ask questions." CONTACT RYAN: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ryan_levick LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlevick/ Website: https://blog.ryanlevick.com/

Earlier this year, we helped migrate one of our first clients onto Shopify Plus. As part of that re-platforming, we tried a new app called Retention Rocket that had dramatic results. That shouldn't be a surprise if you're familiar with the co-founder. Dylan Whitman started BVAccel, the largest Shopify agency. His experience as an agency owner directly led to the creation of Retention Rocket You'll hear: How insights as an agency owner led to the creation of Retention Rocket Why rising acquisition costs are the biggest threat to your business The intentional reason they're NOT in the app store Ryan Somrak Started in the eCommerce industry 10 years ago running sales for Bronto software where they grew the company from 0-50M having never raised a single penny of VC funding. Successfully sold to Netsuite for 200M in 2015, and eventually purchased by Oracle in 2016 where he helped open their 1st Santa Monica location. Now Ryan heads up sales at Retention Rocket. Tune in for more details! Special Offer from Retention Rocket Retention Rocket: Free Install & Free Trial 50% Off 1st 2 months Platform Fee Dedicated resources to install for non-Shopify Plus stores. Show Links Example store: Yvonne Estelle's Transcript Kurt: Hello and welcome back to the unofficial Shopify podcast. I'm your host Kurt Elster in a beautiful kind of gray, rainy, but I don't mind Skokie, Illinois, high top, Westfield Old Orchards professional building in. This is my version of Wayne Tower in Gotham city. Anyway, I want to hop in the time machine and tell you a story. Kurt: A good eight years ago, early in my career before I was the Shopify guide and fully committed to it, I had an office and below that office where some retail shops and there was one wonderful shop called [inaudible 00:00:37] that sold fine linens and tableware and basically expensive French home goods for your house. And it really is very pleasant store to go into and it turned out the owner had an interesting background and was a fun person to talk to and she said, you know, right now my website, I think she used to like Front Page. She's like, I wish I had something better. I said oh I cold help you out with that. Kurt: And we got them on Presta Shop. And it was way better. But you know, over time it was a big pain. And she stayed on that custom Presta Shop theme we developed for seven years until at the very beginning this year we moved her to Shopify plus and it was just phenomenal. I mean you can imagine going from like old and busted to the absolute super car of a E-commerce platform that is Shopify plus, really had a phenomenal impact on her business. First just in time savings, then second in a better user experience that resulted in a higher KPIs across the board. And then third, the sheer number of opportunities that were opened up by apps. Like in the past, her Google shopping was, she was literally like writing her own Google shopping feed, manually uploading it. Kurt: I mean, just crazy stuff. So now we get to automate that stuff, which freed up bandwidth for this single owner seven figure business to then turn around and start trying new things. And of the new things we tried was one that utterly prints money and has been a phenomenal experience that I want to tell you about, and that's retention rocket. So it was new to me, I was skeptical, but it looked cool. The more I learned about it it sounded good. So I said, okay, well let's give it a shot. We tried it, and just utter phenomenal success. So I've got with me Ryan Somrack from retention rocket and I'm going to, we're going to pick his brain and hear about retention rocket and why he believes it is absolutely crucial to your marketing, along with a brief history of the platform because it's kind of interesting. Kurt: So Ryan started in the E-com industry ten years ago running sales for Bronto. It's my understanding that Bronto is like the enterprise equivalent of Klaviyo and he while with them went from zero to 50 million and ACV having never raised a single penny of AVC funding. Yes, a man after my own heart, successfully sold to NetSuite for 200 million in 2015 eventually purchased by Oracle where he helped them open their first west coast office in Santa Monica. And now Mr. Ryan, where are you? Ryan: Hey Kurt, now we are in San Diego. Kurt: And whatcha doing in San Diego? Ryan: Yeah. So I'm running the sales team here at retention rocket. Kurt: Cool. And what the hell is retention rocket? Describe it for me? Ryan: What retention rocket does right, is essentially we are a retention platform that is going to gear conversations with folks, sending the right message at the right time to folks, but most importantly through the right channel, right? So if you look at how E-commerce continues to become more competitive as merchants are duly pressured by the increased ad cost and new online competitors, as a consequence of that, right? Teams are getting leaner, larger merchants are cutting staff and smaller upstarts or are comfortable running lean, teams leveraging technology. Essentially what we want to do, right, is build a retention platform that can drive on its own for clients. So that way, again, when they are paying these customer acquisition costs to get people on their site, we're then capturing their information, whether it's email or SMS or Facebook or push, right? And so that way what we're able to do with deliver messages to retain those customers through whatever channel it is that they prefer. Kurt: All right, so recapping, we run, presumably a lot of folks run Facebook ads. Facebook ads, as we've discussed on the show, are getting more expensive than ever. So you've got this high acquisition cost to drive someone to your website and then once they're there, obviously we want to compete, keep them there. But even if we had some extraordinary conversion rate, like 5% , which would be super high. That still means that 95 out of a hundred people don't buy, but they still, we still spent the money on the ad, right? Kurt: So we want to convert, retain, as many people as possible into customers. So in the past that's all right, we're going to follow up with some dynamic remarketing and we've got like, if we're really sophisticated, we're going to send it a multi part, so like three or four abandoned cart emails. And that would be part of like a larger piece of software. What I'm hearing is in retention rocket, the sole focus of your automation suite is cart abandonment recovery, really. And in that like just have it, that's just the pure focus and it's doing it in more than just email, to multiple channels. Ryan: Yeah. So think about it in this way. Right? So we started off, it was only natural for us to start off in the SMS space. Right? So to kind of give you a brief history of retention rocket, right? So our co founder Dylan Whitman was running one of the largest Shopify agencies in North America, BB Excel. Kurt: Well truthfully, I like, BB Excels' reputation is great. I like Dylan with a lot. I met him a few times and that was part of my interest and willingness to try retention rocket. I'm like if Dylan is behind it, I need to pay attention to it. Ryan: Yeah. And so that's kind of the initial reaction that most people get when we talk about our, when we introduced SMS right up front, a lot of people are hesitant about it because their initial response is, hey, we don't want to pester the customer through text messaging. And usually our response behind that is, is, well, whether you're sending them a text message, right, versus an email, if you're sending out a four part abandoned series email, how much non pestering are you doing versus you know, sending them out a one time text message to try to recoup that through a different channel? Ryan: But essentially going back, right, so Dylan working with BB excel, what he was able to do is work with a variety of merchants in the world, right? Surrounding E-commerce. And he kept coming across a consistent problem with these E-commerce shops specifically on Shopify, which was retention marketing was just taking too many systems, too many technologies, and it was way too complicated to execute. And for the people who were executing it, it was costing them so much money to where they were constantly having to worry about the overhead cost of it. So at the end of the day, again, marketing tools should empower marketers and technology should not essentially bog you down. And so that's kind of where we wanted to focus the core solution, is how do we make a tool that's easy to use for everyone. And also a tool that when we turn it on right, you can start seeing demonstrable revenue day one. Kurt: That's, yeah. Well, that's always a great win for customers. I love that. The common story that we hear from entrepreneurs, from merchants on the show is they have a pain or problem in their own life. They identify a problem and they go, "Hey, I could do this better. Why not me?" And it sounds like that exact same path got followed in software by Dylan, and having you, you said, you know, hey, this thing's going to be easy. It's going to be a quick, fast to use. Having used the thing, that is how it feels like it is no nonsense. It's not bloated. It's not over complicated. Coming from a software development background. I appreciate dashboards like that. All right, so we've established where it came from. Walk me through a certain, you've got to have a roster of cool clients on this thing. Give me a few. Just drop those names. Ryan: Yeah. We work with a variety of clients. So think of like Ivory Ella, Pura Vida, Kopari Beauty, Head Kandi Pro, Brooklyn. And so those are just a variety of clients that we work with. And then from a total demographic standpoint, right? We work with over a hundred clients today, I, and we're constantly growing again, being only a 13 month old company, having a hundred plus clients. You can kind of see the adoption rate that this is starting to take place. Kurt: Yeah, I was going to ask, hey, when did this start? All right, so just over a year ago? Ryan: Yeah, February. That like the first week of February of last year is when we officially kicked things off. Kurt: Oh, so I'm imagine, you're just starting, you've probably got like these are the core things we fixed and I mentioned you've got a long roadmap, run me through, or we've established what it does, it's retention, but really, you know, we're gonna stop browse abandonment, cart abandonment. Walk me through currently the tools in your toolbox that let me do that. And then some of the stuff that's on the roadmap that's going to be coming down the pipe soon? Ryan: Yeah, so currently what we do today, right from think of it, from when we launched our MBP, was an SMS abandonment feature, right? So somebody reaches your cart, right? Or they reached the checkout page. Most people are already collecting a phone field in that checkout or cart page, right? And so what we're doing is we're collecting that opt in, right, and then we're triggering out an abandoned text message that goes out to those customers. Ryan: Additionally from that, right, we're also providing different opt in widgets. So think of tools like texts to opt in. So you'll walk into a lot of stores, especially on Shopify, what you see today, these clients are starting to run pop up shops. So what we're doing right, is we're allowing those customers to do like a text in campaign. So, you know, text Kurt, right to 12345 to receive a SMS, like specific promotions. Right? Kurt: Those are like, those work well as radio ads. I always hear those on like Sirius. Ryan: Yeah. Kurt: You know, like Howard Stern and they're like text blah blah blah 2345 to get here, you know, free info. Ryan: Yup. Yup. Kurt: Okay cool. Ryan: Yeah. We also do things like form builders, right? So we created, after speaking with some of our customers when we launched them, right? One of the biggest things, or the concerns that they had were, hey, we've been in business right, for ten plus years we've collected a substantial amount of emails, but we've never done text message marketing before. How can we start to convert those people in a rapid growth type way. So what we've done right, is allow them to create a separate landing page, whether it's on their site or whether it's one that we actually can create in the platform itself to where you can now start leveraging the email subscribers that you have and push them through like your normal monthly newsletters that encourage those customers to then sign up for like, mobile VIP offers through the site. Right? Ryan: So now you've got an email that's triggering out to your normal customers, giving them the ability to now sign up for another channel where they might receive let's say one to two messages per month and that could be just exclusive only to like those mobile users. So that's one of the other tools. Ryan: We're just also about to release a push notification tool, right? So our whole goal right, is to start now rolling out a lot of these separate performance marketing channels. And then for us, right, it's going to start to determine when these customers are so because we're integrated into Shopify, we're able to track when that order is completed. And so for us, right, it's again, it's not focusing on, hey, we want SMS to be the main driver of it. It's really to understand, hey, this customer is receiving three to four messages a month across email, push, Facebook and text, right? We're now able to track when this customer is purchasing so we can determine like when they should receive which message at what time and when they should start falling off the different engagements from those channels. Kurt: Oh, so you're adding machine learning to it? Ryan: Yeah. That's going to be towards like the second half. Now that we're starting to collect all this data, right? Our longterm goal is to start collecting those algorithms on when the customer is purchasing, when they're making that purchase, what channel they're making that purchase on. Right? So let's say if I set up, you know, a five part abandoned series, that five part abandoned series might be a five part multichannel engagement, right? Between SMS, push, email and Facebook. But if I know that the customer purchased after receiving a text message, they automatically fall off the funnel of the remaining channels that are supposed to go out. And then now I know, hey, this customer purchased through a text message at a, you know, a 5% off coupon as opposed to purchasing through an abandoned email where I might have leveraged at 15% off coupon. So again, it's starting, we want to start to leverage again, how you want to start sending out those messages to the customer. Kurt: All right let's walk through a practical example here, cause my fear is that people aren't grasping how cool this is 'cause it may be hard to picture between, you know, buzzwords like sales channel. Yeah. All right. That wasn't a great example of a buzzword, but the ... Ryan: AI, AI is a great buzzword. Kurt: Yeah I did say machine learning. Okay. So let's walk through an example. I'm, we'll go with you Yvonne Stills, since you started with that one, I'm on Yvonne Stills dot com ,I find like, oh, these are the place mats for me. I add these to my cart. I start to check out, the doorbell rings, I moved on. What happens? How are you going to fix this for me? Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So from there, right on the backend, we've set up based on, again, working with Yvonne and understanding what she doing from an abandoned email standpoint because it's safe to say, right, most people are sending some type of abandoned email today. Right? Kurt: Lord I hope so. Ryan: Right. Yeah. And if you're not ... Kurt: Get to work. Ryan: Yeah, right. Yeah. You're behind the game already. So essentially what we did right, is we sat down with Yvonne to understand when those emails are going out from a time perspective, we know from our end, right, that went an abandoned text message is sent out. 97% of the time that message is opened within the first three minutes of receiving that text. So again, you got to think about when a customer is abandoning, they're really essentially abandoning for a couple of reasons. One, there's customers out there that are really just looking for a discount. The other ones, there is something that could come up where they might actually have a question of they abandoned, does the short coming a different color does the shirt, do the shoes coming in different size. Right. My kid threw up in the kitchen sink, right? So now I've got to attack that. Ryan: So essentially what we're able to do then, right, is trigger out that automated text message to go out after a unique set of timing that the customer chooses. Right. Some of them send a text message out within the first 30 minutes of someone abandoning. Some people send it out after two hours of when someone abandons. So for us it's understanding when they're sending an email. So that way we can determine when we should send out a text. So now let's say I've got an abandoned text that goes out after 30 minutes, right? I follow that up after let's say four hours of sending an abandoned email and then let's say 24 hours from then, right? I want the last notification to be through, let's say their Facebook messenger account if we've collected that opt in. Ryan: So now I've got three different channels that I'm now following up with the customer to say, to remind them the purchase. So let's say they then received that text message, they open that text, right? They click on the link that's provided there and then they make that purchase. As soon as that purchase is made, right? It's an notifying Shopify on the back end that that order has been completed. So what happens is, is they fall off any abandoned email program that was set up and they would fall off any Facebook notification that's scheduled to be pushed out. Kurt: Oh dude, sweet. It's painless and seamless. All right. So for my experience with Yvonne was like literally she was like, yeah, let's set it up. And then you guys set a meeting, and then like by that afternoon it was up and running and going. Is that, did she get special treatment because this is, this is one of Kurt's clients? Or is this just because it's this easy? Ryan: Yeah, no. So it really is that easy, right? So if you, if you look at it, right, the new breed of advanced and fast growing merchants, they just want, they just want software that works, right? They don't want to have to think about it too much. They want it to produce revenue in a way where you aren't bombarding individuals X number of times. And they also want to be able to turn it on. Right? And then kind of let it go from there. Ryan: So essentially during all of our on boards, that's when we, we sit down with the customer, right, to understand like, hey, what are the different channels that they're already working in today? And then the strategies behind that and then we introduce, right, what are the strategies that we see from a multichannel perspective work for our clients. We set up their campaigns, we configure the best practices behind that and then from there moving forward, right as soon as we turn it on. Right. They've got dedicated teams behind them to help assist in any way because at the end of the day, right, it is software. It's a certain channel that most people have not gotten into. So they need that hand holding experience, which is where we typically win most of the time. Kurt: All right, so devil's advocate question here is this thing lets you some retention messages through text, number one, and it's actually we should, it wasn't noted, you know when I tested it, it's MMS. So like I got a text message with the product photo in it. It was really cool. You're in push notifications, there's Facebook messenger, there are existing solutions that do all of those things individually. Devil's advocate question, like what's the difference or the advantage here? Ryan: Yeah, no, that's a great question. Right? So I think the biggest thing that we're going to be focusing on is that these tools that we're going to collectively put into the platform, right, are not going to be things where it takes an entire team to run those technologies, right? So I think that's primarily like the first and biggest thing is that, so ease of use is really our biggest focus. I think the next thing that is going to be the biggest game changer is that we're going to be able to start collecting all of the data and from a predictive intelligence standpoint, right? Predict from an automation way of like, Hey, we noticed that customer A converts 10X higher, throw an email at a 10% off coupon, push them down this flow. But we know customer B converged 20X higher through an SMS and no coupon at all. Right? Ryan: So maybe we want to save that coupon, right? For someone that we know purchases more through, let's say email, we're going to now push customer B through like the text message funnel. So again, it's starting to understand like, where the customers are purchasing and how often they're purchasing. So then that way you can start leveraging. Another thing that we're looking at right now is, is think of like post mail, right? So companies that we know have purchased, like maybe they purchased one time and they haven't purchased within the last six months, right? Send them actual postcard, a with an offer tied to that, right? Kurt: Does it do that? Can I do that now? No? Ryan: No. It doesn't do that now, but that's exactly what we're working on. Right? So ... Kurt: That's be cool. Ryan: It's not leveraging just one channel to try to steal an attribution from another channel. We could care less about what, you know, what channel makes the sale. Right? We literally just want to understand from a customer viewpoint, right, which channel is communicating to that person and which channel they're responding the most with. So instead of say, hey, I want to have an email platform, right? And then I want to have a Facebook message platform that's going to try to take the acquisition away from my email, right, now you've got two conflicting platforms trying to steal the attribution. For us it's more about understanding what these customers, or where in the funnel they're making these purchases from first and foremost. Kurt: Yeah, it's an important distinction that I had not picked up on, that is a big advantage is you've got better attribution as opposed to like last, touch attribution that a lot of these platforms use, so you have like multiple apps all taking credit for the same thing. It's silly. Ryan: And the hard part of balancing that is right is when we start chatting, like when we go that deep with customers, a lot of the times we're having those conversations with customers that have never done SMS before, So now like you really have to kind of dial it all the way back and and look at first and foremost and say, okay, what are the retention strategies that you're doing today? Most people that we talk to are like, our retention strategy isn't that strong. We're really focused on the customer acquisition side, which we can completely understand and relate with, especially as technologies are changing and the rapid pace that E-commerce is going through. That's a valid point. But people, I think in the next, you know, in the next twelve to 24 months, you're going to see a dramatic change and people trying to focus on how do they grow the LTV of a customer and then how do they grow the AOV of a customer. And that's where I think retention is going to like take over by storm, right? Ryan: It's because now you've spent all this money to get somebody to your page, so now it's a matter of like how do you get that person to then not only convert one time on that page, but to keep that customer for let's say 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, and to take them from $60 in revenue, right to $120 in revenue over the course of that 12 months. Kurt: It's absolutely a safe bet, as acquisition costs keep getting higher, eventually currently profitable E-commerce businesses won't be sustainable anymore unless they have that shifted focus to, okay, let's focus on retention and we're going to, you're going to see that represented in a few key performance indicators where, all right, what's our lifetime value? What's our average order value? What's our repeat customer rate? And I think you're absolutely right. Not like, if you're thinking, oh, that's a hot take, it's really not. It's inevitable. Ryan: It really is. And again, it's not to focus on one channel over the other, like email, like you hear these things, that email is dying, right? Or email is going away, right? That's just 100% false. What's happening, right, is that there's just been so many email providers, right, that the space in general is just a bit saturated and email is so cheap, right? That people can send, you know, five, six messages a week to the same customer. Right. And it's relatively inexpensive, which is why I think email is going to continue to be around. Ryan: Our position, right, is you need to find, you need to find a real like, almost like painting a picture, right? You need to find a way to where you're not just focused on one specific outlet to start responding to that customer and that's all part of like what we're even learning as a company. Right? Do we know if a back in stock reminder is better notified through push notifications than email or text? Do we, you know, do we notice that hey, a new product launch or, or let's say you know, basically hey an update to some new products that we're rolling out. Like should that be going through an email as opposed to anything else? Do we think a buy one get one free sale is more geared towards SMS then email or push? These are all things that like we're starting to at, and which is I think going to be the biggest proponent of like how customers start to trigger out their marketing messages. Kurt: No, absolutely. Okay. Going backwards a little bit. What is the, if we've got all of these channels unified in one app and we don't have to deal with a bunch of separate apps and now we're collecting this data. Okay. Then it stands to reason. You may have a cool dashboard, but it's also, it's a 13 month old app so, I don't know if it isn't there yet. Talk to me about the reporting and what that dashboard it looks like a little bit? Ryan: Yeah. So right now we're able to look at total messages sent right from a channel perspective. So if you sign up and you use like our Facebook tool, if you sign up for obviously SMS and push, right? We'll the able to tell you how many messages are going out through those various channels. We'll be able to report on how many people have opted in through those various channels. Then we can take a look at a sales attribution's as well as revenue generated. Right? So what we're going to be doing moving forward is we're actually going to dive in a little bit deeper from a reporting standpoint. So from like a customer level, right? You can actually look at the customers who have opted in. You can see things like their their last purchase. You can see things like the last item that they abandoned. Ryan: You can see things like total orders that they have on your site. You can see the average order value that they have on your site and we're actually putting them into predefined segments. So then that way when people start to send like outbound promotionals through text or through push or through Facebook, right? You're now able to maybe not send the same message to everyone. You can now start to dissect, hey, I want this message with free shipping to go to customers that we know have purchased more than twice. We want the customers who have purchased less than twice, right to receive, maybe like 5% off or something like that. Ryan: So from there, right, we're also going to be tracking things like opens, clicks, conversions, and then we're also going to be, from a diagraph standpoint, being able to show you exactly where customers are opting in. So, for example, right, if we know that we've got 30 customers that sign up for the text to join campaign versus maybe 15 people who have signed up by abandoning a product versus 10 people who have signed up after completing a purchase, right? You obviously want to know where some of these folks are are signing up. So then that way you can also determine like, which message should be going out to those folks as well. Kurt: So dope, dude, so sick. Ryan: Yeah, it's exciting. So we're super stoked, you know, like at the same time we've got, you know, we've got a two year roadmap, that like we're looking ahead on which is, you look at that and you're like, shit, like that's a long roadmap. But you think of like where E-commerce is going to be, you know, two years from now. I mean just over the last 12 months, like it's changed so radically, just with the changes that are happening within Facebook itself, right? Like, and the customer acquisition costs between now and 12 months ago. There's just always a constant radical shift. So for us, right, it's the challenge for us is, is staying on focus to the roadmap that we have in hand and making sure that we develop a product that again, is easy to use for the customer. And then first and foremost drives them revenue the moment that they turn it on. Kurt: So cool. Yeah. Well that was what amazed, me was how rapidly we were able to get the thing going and making sales. But one objection possible, objection here some of the brands you rattle off, I know her on Shopify plus Yvonne Styles is on Shopify plus. Do you have to be on Shopify plus for this thing to work? Ryan: Yeah, great question. No, you don't have to be on Shopify plus a to use the APP. So right now in its current state, right, we work with Shopify plus and people who are on Shopify, you know, either regular, or if they're on Shopify advanced and Shopify itself is just such an easy platform to work with. It's also a reason that we wanted to start there before venturing out. Kurt: That makes sense, on the topic I noticed like all right, another devil's advocate question. This thing's not in the Shopify APP store and I noticed like there's some big popular apps that aren't in the APP store. What's the deal with that? Ryan: Yeah. So in our current state, right, we're really focused on building, with how young we are still in our current state, we're focused on building one to one relationships with our customers and solving their problems. I think over time, right, as our product eve continues to evolve, you'll see retention rocket in the app store. So we're definitely looking at something like that. We just want to make sure that from a timing perspective, that we're able to deliver right, what the customers are looking for. Kurt: That ambulance you order just arrived. Okay. Nope, that makes sense. The way I'm hearing that as if it was in the APP store, anyone could just click install retention rocket. It's much harder to scale that experience, versus right now it's easier for you to work one on one and have that very high touch onboarding by having it just, okay, you sign up for it on the retention rocket website. Ryan: Yeah, because here's a perfect example of it, right? We get someone who's never done text messaging before, right? They download the retention rocket app in the APP store having never done anything with text messaging before. Like, their question is going to be, you know, what's the best way to op customers, via SMS, what's the best practices on sending SMS, right? Do I send once a week? Do I send twice a day, right? Do I send once a month? So these are all questions that for each customer, they're all going to be different, right? It depends on are, you know, are you a Pura Vida, right? Versus you know, a TAF clothing. Like are you selling $30 items right, where you don't care what the discount is a or are you selling, you know, $400 pairs of shoes that you're not discounting at all? Ryan: So for us, right? It's really a matter, the tool we know will be effective, right, when done the right way. And that's why we want to sit down with those customers and really understand like what they're doing today and how we can incorporate retention rocket to take them to the next level. Kurt: Cool. So what's, what's the typical ROI or results of using retention rocket? Ryan: Yeah, that's a good question. Right? Kurt: 'Cause it says you've got so far, you've got a 20 million that you've revenue increase for retention rocket customers. I see that on your website. Ryan: Yeah. I mean our average, I would say for people who do, from an abandoned cart standpoint, right? I'm just from a recovery standpoint and we've got customers that average anywhere from 300 to a thousand bucks a day, even more, right? Like I don't want to single out the people that we see doing like 4K a day. And I know that's a big average, but it also determines, right, again, like the amount of traffic that they're driving on their site, right? And the actual, the cart value of when someone abandons, right? Ryan: So I'd say typically, on average you can see about 300 to a thousand bucks per day in revenue. The conversion rates that we're seeing a range anywhere from 19 all the way up to 38% right? We've got a reach a fashion retailer down in Auburn that when we turn it on and we ran a 30 day performance forum, they drove over 40K and sales. They had a 46% open rate and a 38% conversion rate. Kurt: That's crazy. That's nuts. Ryan: Yeah. You think about it, right? If you, if you're doing an abandoned cart emails exceptionally well, you're seeing anywhere from let's say like a 12 to 15% conversion rate. Right? That could be fair. So imagine, right? If you increase that even another 9% or 10% what's that doing to the bottom line of the business, and for some of these folks, right? Who are just starting, you know, on a Shopify, an extra 300 bucks a day in revenue is a really big impact for them. So that's kind of some of the things we've seen from an outbound standpoint, people who were doing, I think you'll start to see more and more of this as people start to engage with SMS more, right? Ryan: The average ROI that we see is anywhere from a nine to 10X on those out bounds. Kurt: Alright, you've already sold me on it, stop selling, I want it. How much is it going to cost me? Ryan: Yeah. Right. So we do it based on different tiers, right? So it's based on the amount of orders that they do per day. So it could be anywhere from 99 bucks a month all the way up to 1000 bucks a month. And then from an outbound standpoint, right, they just pay a per message costs on those out bounds. So if they send a regular text message, or like a regular hundred 60 character SMS, you're looking at a penny per message. If they send an MMS like you were referring to earlier where they send something like a picture in there or a Gif, right, you can even include a two minute video inside those tax. You're looking at two cents per message. Kurt: That's cheap. Is there a set up fee for it? Ryan: Yeah, so typically there's a setup fee. So what we're going to do for anyone who wants to try it out, right from, from viewing on the podcast is we're going to do a free install for them as well as ... Kurt: Alright they're gonna shake you down. All right. We'll do a free install. What else do they get, any more? Keep it coming. Ryan: A free install. We're going to do a free trial for them. Kurt: How long is the free trial? Ryan: Yeah, the free trial will last up to 30 days. Kurt: Okay. Free install ,free trial. Gimme more. I need more? Ryan: Yup. Yup. You're going ... Kurt: Let's turn those pockets inside out. Ryan: So if they want to sign on right after after the trial, right. We're going to do 50% off their first two months of the platform fee. Kurt: Oh yeah. Okay. All right. That's you've been properly shaken down so we get free install free trial, 50% off for the first 60 days. Did I miss anything? Is that everything? I mean this is pretty good. All right, where do I go to get started? Ryan: So you're going to, there should be a link that's provided to the podcast, right? Kurt: In the show notes, all right. Exactly. Yeah, so in the show notes that they sign up through that link, it will then generate back to us to give them that special promotion. All right, listener note. If you're on you're on your phone, tap or swipe up on the episode art and it will open up the show notes and you'll find I will stick that in there. Like big heading, special offer from retention rocket. We turned Ryan's pockets inside out and then that will have the link, like a special shortened link that will take you to the page to get the offer. Or if it doesn't, I'm sure you could just, when you're doing the onboarding doc, I heard about you for Kurt, give me those free 60 days nerd and they should help you out there. Don't call him a nerd though, I guess Ryan: Say whatever they want when they sign up. Kurt: Cool. All right, well here I got one. An odd ball question for you. What apps have really good synergy with retention rocket? Like if I really want to make sure that I'm getting the most out of retention rocket, is there anything I should already be doing that would make me a good candidate for it? Ryan: Yeah, right. So I'd say the, the platforms right? That we're working right now on to build some pretty cool use cases. So [inaudible 00:34:56] won, right? Clavio from like an email perspective, smile.io from a rewards. Kurt: Love smile. Ryan: Yeah. Right. So we're working on some really good use cases with them on how they can incorporate SMS to their client base. Right. And then we're also working, we're going to be working pretty closely with recharge from a subscription standpoint, which I think will be, will throw out some really good use cases on people who obviously are abandoning subscriptions or things like auto refill reminders. So stuff like that is going to be down, actually not, pretty far away. So we'll be rolling those out pretty soon. So I think like people that are using those technologies seem to play really well with retention rocket. Kurt: Super Cool. Wow. All right. I got to go sign up. I gotta go sign my wife up for retention rocket. Thank you Ryan. This has been fantastic. I'm inspired. I got to go set this thing up. Ryan: Yeah, we appreciate it, man. So thanks for the help.

Links Fierce Marriage Fierce Marriage podcast On Facebook On Twitter On Instagram About Ryan & Selena Frederick We’ve got an awesome interview ready for you because Ted talked to Ryan and Selena Frederick, the founders of Fierce Marriage. Fierce Marriage is an online marriage platform., which includes a blog, a podcast, social media channels, and several books written by Ryan and Selena. They’ve been married for over 15 years and live in Tacoma, Wa., with their two daughters. Let’s dive into Ted’s interview with Ryan and Selena. Interview  How did you first meet? Ryan: I remember it so clearly—the first time I saw Selena was in 8th grade. My mom was an educator and was interviewing at a Christian school. I went along to her interview and walked into the gym and saw Selena and my stomach dropped. I went to the school and didn’t talk to her for a year. We became friends and then it turned in a romance. The summer after our sophomore year, we started dating and dated for four years. We got married pretty young—20 and 21. In hindsight, it was young, but I couldn’t wait any longer. What were the first surprises once you got married? Ryan: As a young Christian guy in that generation of “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, I’m thinking sex was going to be everything I want and more. But you get married and your expectation has to adjust. That was the biggest reality check for me. Selena: It’s learning to manage those expectations as a wife. But you can’t uphold all those things and carry it all. And that’s OK. We were learning to do this together, so we had to grow in our intimacy. It’s gotten better with time. Ryan: I would say to the young couple listening that it’s just the beginning of a long adventure of learning to love each other. What were the marriages like in your families? Selena: I came from a divorced home. My parents divorced when I was about eight. So I didn’t really know what a marriage looked like. I heard the arguing and messes of my parents and saw the high and low but not the in-between. Ryan: My parents have been together my whole life. They’re amazing, but not necessarily healthy in every season. My dad had two ultimatums for me growing up—no tattoos and don’t have sex before you get married. So marriage has always had a level of importance in my own mind. Selena: I grew up in the church and it was monumental to my growth and view of marriage. I knew once I got married I wouldn’t consider a divorce. What made you want to pour into marriages? Ryan: I would call it a quarter life crisis. About 7 years ago, I was working with our web development company—designing and writing code myself. We launched the business 10 years ago and had gotten these clients that I thought would be the Holy Grail. I thought we were living the dream but I was working long hours and hated it. I started wondering why I was doing it. I was OK at it, but not great at it. I started asking God what He had for us and we wanted to do it God’s way. I had also done a lot of work with publishers and started wondering what if we started a marriage ministry. We had also seen a lot of our friends go through their first five or seven years of marriage and divorce. We started asking why ours was working and we wanted to be together still. As clear as day, it was just Jesus. There’s no other reason we’re together. But knowing Christ and how we’re loved in Him is why we’re still together. We realized there’s something to be said in this space. We don’t know it all, but what we do know we’ll share openly and transparently. I spent a month or so building out the plan and we launched a few months later. Why do you think some of your friends were getting divorced? There’s a lot going on before marriage that could be brought in as baggage. If you’ve had other sexual partners and Christ hasn’t helped you walk through that, for example. The theme is the softness of heart and respect for each other that comes from wanting to hear God’s word and bend my will to it. It’s why we say it always comes back to Jesus. I don’t know how to make sense of love outside of Chris. When I look at Him it all becomes clear and the standard. Christ empowers us to be able to love each other and have the hard conversations in the marriage covenant. If we’re not able to really walk through things from pre-marriage with Christ, it’s hard to continue walking together. We build walls and don’t want to be vulnerable. What do you say to someone listening who isn’t a believer and is hearing things like ‘covenant’ and ‘Jesus is Lord’? For someone who doesn’t know what it means to love Jesus, it’s the grace of God that you’re listening to this. This is an opportunity to start that journey. Whether you call yourself a Christian or not, we don’t assume you know what it means to experience the true Gospel. We do them a disservice if we don’t at least create a framework where they can start getting answers to their questions. In our book we released this last April, we spent a whole chapter on Gospel, Love and Covenant. We found that couples who understand truth about love and covenant will always have the behavior they want. But if we just try to give them tips for the behavior, that’s just behavior modification. At the core of it, our mission is to point people to Christ. What differences do you see in millennial marriages? The biggest thing we always say is: step one is to not assume what people believe or their worldview. Step two is to not be afraid to point them to Jesus. People want a relationship that lasts for life and is transparent. And we know how to get that and it’s Jesus. What are the things you hear millennials are struggling with? One of them would be finding true community where you’re known and knowing others. Having those people you can do life with and be transparent is so important. The second is to understand longevity and stability with a true long-term vision in mind. It allows you to table issues and rely on your covenant. Let love mature. The third one is our generation can tend to get scared of conflict. It’s why we want to live on Instagram. It’s mainly because we haven’t been taught how to resolve conflict so we walk away from it. Talk about being married and working together. How do you make that work? Selena: We’ve become a pretty good team. Ryan handles a lot of the day-to-day work of keeping Fierce Marriage running. I handle our children and the day-to-day home life, but we’re both trying to bring Jesus into these situations. Ryan: It’s understanding that we’re a team even though she’s not on a laptop next to me. It’s learning generosity and to be generous with your appreciation. Me working from home has been another transition for us. Bt seeing it as an opportunity to really serve each other. I’ll come down and relieve her if the kids are acting up. Your one simple thing for this week: Ryan: Fight naked—literally and figuratively. It’s hard to get mad when someone is disrobing and figuratively don’t go into a fight with your armor on, stay vulnerable. Selena: Find an adventure you’ve been wanting to do and do it together. It doesn’t have to be big; it could be finding a park or a new trail. Show Closing Thanks for joining us for the Married People Podcast. We hope you’ll subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and leave a review – they help us make the podcast better. We want to hear from you. Share with us on Facebook, Instagram or our site.  If you want more resources, check out Your Best Us.

So you are working a day job and you are wondering what can you do to get to your financial freedom sooner, rather than later!??!! I met Ryan who is living that life. He has a great day job, but he also wants to do something on the side to help build his financial foundation. Ryan not only figured that out, but he created a system that makes it possible to use his discretionary time wisely. Tune in on this interview as Ryan shares his secret!! Grant: Welcome to another episode of financial investing radio, so I'm very excited because I have in the house with me today, a visitor that I just recently met through someone that I know online and they pointed me to this person. They said, Grant, you need to talk to this person because he's doing a kind of investing that I know a lot of people in the corporate world think about, which is this uncertainty of what's gonna really happen to what's going on in my life, but without going any further. Well let me back up and stop and say, welcome. Ryan. Would you take a moment and introduce yourself? Ryan: What's up everyone? Ryan Helms here coming to you from right now, dark outside Atlanta, Georgia. But uh, yeah, I've been in Atlanta for about five years now. And uh, you know, I create content to help people with nine to five jobs, create freedom in their life. Grant: That's really cool. So how did you arrive at this? I mean, you just one day say, hey, this might be a good idea. Are there must've been some sort of impetus that got your attention and said, hey, I better do something about this? Ryan: Yeah, so for me, I, moved up to Atlanta for my job, which I have no disdain for at all and I came up here and I spent about the first two years I really kind of nose down kind of work, like you know, I'm going to make a name for myself in this company, which has worked out quite well. It was a good strategy, but it got me to a point where I wasn't burnt out, but when I looked up it was on the horizon and I knew I had to like step back, pull myself back for a bit. And unfortunately when you're early in your career in corporate America, you get about two weeks vacation and yeah, it's kind of unfortunate, but I'd used all two weeks of that because I sat on the couch which is about eight feet behind me right now. And I bought a plane ticket to Nairobi, Kenya and had no. Yeah, I had no plans at all. I was literally scrolling the Internet, had no intentions to buy a plane ticket on that Friday night, but I purchased that plane ticket because it was $750 and I thought, man, that's a pretty good deal to go all the way to Africa. I did that and that was in July of 2016 and I made the trip November of 2017 or no, November of 2016 and you know, while I was there it was just. First of all, it was an amazing experience. It's like going on a safari and spending a week on Zanzibar and all this, all these cool things. But you know, as cliche as it sounds, I really had like this epiphany moment when I was there. I was meeting all these people that were doing all these great things in their life that we're allowing them to have this freedom to travel. Like I was meeting people from all over the world and oftentimes they had different paths on how they got there and how they were traveling. Some of them were on vacation like me, but a lot of them were traveling for like two years and I'm in a year and all these things and when I left there I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to do because I'd never had that mindset before. It was always like it was. Yeah. That was like working in the corporate, Grant: So you are thinking "Hey, I'm being a good employee." So you're in the grind, right? And then you saw a flight where price was away from value. I think they call it a sale, right? There's a sale and you're like Nairobi, let's go! So you run into these people out there that are like, they're traveling around. So this pop that idea in your head. All right. And keep going. What happened? Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, I'm on the plane ride back from, from Nairobi, Kenya, coming back to Atlanta and I said I, I need to, I need to create this freedom my life. Unfortunately I look at my bank account and I was about $55,000 in debt, not counting like my mortgage. So like consumer debt. And I said, alright, so how can I expedite the process of paying this debt off? Because that was the, that was the first thing hanging over my head that I knew if I wanted to be free quote unquote free, however you define that for me, it was financially free. Like I didn't want the burden of, uh, have that hanging over my head and have to make decisions based on money. So, uh, I said, how can I speed this process up? So the next thing was how can I create alternate streams of income? Right? So when you're working in a corporate environment, you can't just walk up to your boss and say, Hey, give me a 20 percent rate. Is that Grant: Well, you can try that, but how far does that go? Not far! Ryan: So, uh, so I just started to, for one pull the reins in on my finances, on my budget, things like that really started to understand it because I made good money for my age being at this time, probably like 28 or so, uh, and made good money enough to where I never had to look at my bank account. And I never did. I just knew I had enough money to spend and never was like, it was like I didn't know the password to my Wells Fargo account, that kind of thing. I just knew that I could do what I want it to do and not have to look at my bank. Grant: Maybe you were rich in the world's terms in the sense that you didn't have to look at your bank account, you were free a little bit, right? And you said you didn't have to look too much. But when you saw these other people on your trip you realized your current salary wasn't giving you the freedom at the next level. And that was the epiphany, right? Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. So I spent a, I spent some time figuring out how could I, how could I help speed up the process of, of paying this debt down. Uh, and then I came up on, okay, I'm going to start a side hustle, so I'm going to do something outside of my day job to help, uh, put me down this path. And the first thing I did was always been into fitness and things like that. So I started this a fitness business on the side focused on corporate individuals and it was called corporate fit in. That was going well in through that process though, I had a lot of people asking me how I was doing everything because at this time I was traveling around the world for my job, so I was constantly on the go and still putting out content, still building this business on the side and I didn't know how to answer people and they said, how are you doing it? I was like, I don't know. I'm just, I guess I'm doing what everybody else will be doing if they were doing this. Now stepping back though, I realized it was the systems, right? That's what was allowing me to, to manage all these moving parts in my life was how much I had systematize things. So that was a turning point for me. I said, okay, I don't really see myself doing this fitness thing. It doesn't thrill me. Like I enjoyed fitness because I liked working out. I didn't enjoy it as much when I was helping other people. I created the why. First off I had said, all right, I have a process, I systematized my life in this way to enable me to do this, and I sat down and put pen to paper. The output of that was a physical product called the side Hustle and journal, which I ended up launching on kickstarter a November, so almost about I guess 10 months ago now. November of 2017. Grant: Cool. Alright, so 10 months on Kickstarter. So you said something interesting you came up with this system, the system that the intent of the system has to help someone take themselves through the fitness experience. Is that right? Ryan: So the system that I was referring to was the system on how I was actually a managing my nine to five job, quote unquote, doing all this stuff on the side, hanging out with friends, still still having some form of a social life. That's the system I remember referring to it Grant: That's your system lead people to help them create their side hustle; while they have another job. So there's a lot of people that are in that situation right there. They've got the day job, they want to figure out the side hustle. You've got the system where you figured this out. So it's been 10 months, it's been out there. What's been the impact of that? What have you seen? What have been the results? Ryan: Yeah, it's been cool. So on, on it was really challenging because like I said, I had no audience at all going into this space and I went in it kind of backwards to most people. Most people start like on the content creation side, build some awareness for their, their personal brand, things like that. I like to make things difficult for myself. And went with the physical product right off the bat. Surprisingly I convinced 600, a little over 650 people on Kickstarter to back the project. Uh, so that was a good start to kind building my list. It was kind of a jumpstart to building my list. And since then it's been awesome. I've been really focusing on interacting with that community, really giving them an authentic view at me. So making it, like really showing them, I'm not a guy just selling them a product, I'm a guy like them. I'm a guy on this journey with them, uh, trying not so much to put myself on this pedestal above them. Show them that, hey look, I'm just following what I'm doing. I'm just like you, like if you come on this journey with me, what we're going to cross the finish line about the same time. So that's what I've been doing the past 10 months is, is bringing people on that journey, uh, leveraging the physical product itself as a way to get people to come on that journey with me. Right? So that's, that's the entry point into my ecosystem right now. Uh, so yeah, that's kind of where I've been at the past 10 months. Grant: That's amazing. So, so the style of investing, given financial investing, radio style of the investment here is that you have a way to leverage your discretionary time to produce additional income in your life and make a change without rocking the boat in terms of, you know, you're stable work and stable for now all with the intent that you're shooting towards. So do you have an idea how long it would take for someone applying your system? Regardless of how they apply? Right. I mean they could apply it anywhere from a creating embroidery products to selling books or whatever. Right. You use it for anything, is that right? Ryan: Yeah, for sure. Grant: So if they applied the system, what sort of timeframe would they expect as a two year or three year process where you think they could break free financially or get to that next level? Or does that depend hard to say? Ryan: It's probably too hard to say based on individual factors, but I think what you'll gain right off the bat is the systems that will enable you to leverage this time and actually like it's like finding, you know, you find money in the seat cushions and things like that so that you find time in all of these places that you don't realize you actually have time and it all goes back to just being very intentional about what you're doing and you know, the journal itself and the system within the journal is about discovering like what do you want to be intentional about and then how can you maximize your time around it that could give you time to do a lot of things. Not only could it give you time to invest in yourself by, you know, creating a side hustle or a business on the side, but I mean you could even, it could free up time to do actual investing. Maybe the stock market is what you're really into, right? This system. So could be the foundation for developing your new investing strategy. Doing the research, who you want to getting more methodical about those processes that are required to do really anything, whether you're investing in yourself or in the market, so, uh, it could really be applied to anyone in the amount of effort that you put in will determine the speed in which you reach it. Grant: I heard a seminar recently from a guy by the name of Alex Charfen. You ever heard of him? Ryan: Yeah. Grant: And Alex was, he said something that sounded kind of similar where he said that he has this thing called a a time study, I think was the term he used, which was take a moment to think about how you're spending your time. And he said, I guarantee if you take two weeks to really evaluate and log and write down how you're spending your time, he said you will find places where you are wasting a ton of time and that will free up to then be able to do the kind of system you're talking about. Is that right? Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And I agree 100 percent. If you don't put it down in front of you, you'll think you're efficient with your time, but there's going to be inevitable gaps in the product says, you know, the reason I put out a physical product for this and I've had so many people saying you need to make an APP, you need to do this. It's because there's so much activity going on in your phone, right? There's so many things and beings and bongs like every two seconds for something like this as important as like getting time back and, and, and creating something great, but out into the world, you need to carve out a section of non-distracted time and really figure out, you know, what, what do I need to do, how can I get there? So that's, that's what I'm all about. Exactly. As you know, putting it down on paper and putting it in front of you and visualizing it. Grant: How much, how much non-distracted time does a person need in order for, to, to make some effective progress? Is Fifteen minutes enough or does it need to be more? Ryan: Uh, for me, I think it needs at one given time. I think it needs to be more, I think the, the uh, you know, the length of period of time should be definitely longer than 15 minutes. I would say at least 45 minutes so that you can, it'll take you 15 minutes, get focused on what you want to do and if all you have is 15 minutes and you have 15 minutes every two hours, yeah, you may be getting, you know, three hours worth of work in that day, but you'll probably only get about 15 good minutes worth of work as you will be starting over every 15 minutes. And as soon as you start to get in your groove, you're going to be, it's going to be over again. So I like to try to carve out a larger block of time of at least an hour so I can make sure I can get focused on what I'm trying to do and actually execute on something. Grant: I think that makes a lot of sense. I've seen multiple studies where people have identified the cost of a distraction in terms of productivity in every time we get distracted with the amount of time it takes in order to get the context back into your head so that you can begin to be productive again. That sounds like that's what you're describing. Absolutely. I used to. I used to ride a lot of code earlier on in my life and my career and every time I'd get distracted, right, it pull me away. It would take me a long time, like 15 minutes, get get into mine, mine everything where I was right in solving a particular problem. It was so expensive to do that. It sounds like you've optimized on that principal to help people invest in themselves, to invest in their future by taking advantage of the discretionary time they have to really reach the real goals. That's cool. You're good. Anything about goal setting as part of this? Is that. Is that a key part of your system provides? Ryan: Yeah, so the product itself, I always say like the backbone of this tool is what I call it, a molehill system. Grant: So why, why do you call it the mole hill system? Ryan: Uh, I was sitting at a Starbucks one Saturday morning working on this and I knew I had this system in it and just from a marketing standpoint, I knew I had to name it something, right? It couldn't just be, it couldn't just live in here. And I was thinking and I was like, man, I was like, don't make a mountain out of a molehill because that's what a lot of people do. You have this, this little obstacle in your way and you just stay in there for months looking at it because you're just so terrified of it. So like the, my thought there is, is you're breaking down, you know, this big mountain into these really manageable mole hills that you can just easily surpass on a daily basis. So the mole hills or things that you're doing every single day and the mountain is what you get at the end and you don't actually ever have to climb the mountain. It's just basically the finish line at that point. Grant: Oh, I see. So the mole hills or series of steps that take you up to the mountain. So what's been the impact of people that have applied the system so far? What have you seen? Ryan: Yeah, so that's one of the coolest thing for me is the satisfaction from just seeing people use the tool and the community that it's creating. So one of the things I did with the Kickstarter was create where it's like an accountability system. So I said, you know, if you want to back this tier, one of the things that you'll, one of the offers in this tier will be all partner you up with somebody. And actually just, this has probably been about three weeks ago now, but I got a uh, I got a email with a picture in it from two guys. And at first all I saw was a pitcher and I was like, why are these two guys sending me a picture? And they were in Milan and I can tell they were in Milan because of the cathedral and the, and one of the guys was from Switzerland and one of the guys was from New York and they were sending me the email to say, thanks for connecting us. This is my accountability partner. We decided to meet in Italy. We'd been working together for the past eight months using the journal. So yeah, things like that are just awesome. And just to realize that you're impacting people and knowing that there's probably other people out there that aren't sending you those emails that are impacting as well. So it's been very, very cool. Just to, uh, just to see how an idea in my head most nights mostly created in a Starbucks down the street is changing people's lives. Grant: That is really awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. That's all happened. Just within the 10 months since you put it out there, if someone wanted to go find your materials, wherever they go, did they go find it? Yeah, Ryan: Sure. GritAndHustle.co; it literally right there on the front page. If you want to check out the side hustle journal, you can get it for free. Just download the free PDF there and if you want to get a hard copy you can get that as well, but feel free to just download the paper version printed out, see if it's for you and if it's for you, awesome. Let me know if you have any questions. I'd be happy to help. Grant: That's awesome. Very good. Okay. Any last comments, thoughts before we wrap? Ryan: Just, you know, a lot of people say this, I think it could actually further closing comments, but just take action. Get out there, create freedom, whatever that means for you. Like for me, uh, I think about freedom as being financially free to do what I want to make decisions, not based on money. Freedom for you may mean something totally different. So figure out what that means for you. And then start taking action so that you can get there. Grant: Okay. So it's GritAndHustle.co. Got it. Excellent. Ryan, thank you for joining. This is Grant. Thanks for joining another episode of Financial Investing Radio. Until next time, take some action.

Ryan Daniel Moran was a preacher-in-training turned entrepreneur. He moved to Austin with little to nothing to his him name, and launched Amazon businesses that he eventually sold for over 8 figures. Ryan did us all a solid – really – by documenting and sharing his journey. The Freedom Fast Lane Podcast helps entrepreneurs at every stage of their business, from startup to exit. In this interview, Ryan shares his top three “mistakes”, or as discussed, things he wishes he did differently as he looks back. He openly shares his story and journey, in the hopes that other entrepreneurs do things to maximize the value of their business (and life). Through Ryan's conference, Capitalism.com, he helps bring like minded entrepreneurs and experts in the ecommerce space together to build brands and businesses that last. While he may be a preacher-school-dropout, Ryan still has a way of delivering the goods when it comes to advocating doing the right thing…so good things follow. Episode Highlights: [1:25] Who is Ryan Daniel Moran? [4:38] Is it better to buy or build? [6:43] Ryan thinks we're in a “seller's market” [8:05] What are Ryan's “mistakes” and what would he do differently. [11:30] Does it matter if you like your buyer? Does likability matter? [13:52] The likable buyer story…who won out over an all cash buyer. [15:12] Mistake # 1 – playing the short term. [17:25] Mistake #2 – telling people what to do and diminishing their talent. [18:51] Ryan shares his staffing team numbers. Inhouse and remote. [20:06] Mistake #3 – Ryan wishes he spent more money on advertising, customer acquisition, and brand building. [22:51] Why is a 100% Amazon business worth less than a Shopify store? [24:00] What channels would Ryan expand to – beyond Amazon.com [25:30] The first “nut you have to crack” [27:02] Ryan disagrees with Joe! [30:40] Brands last, product businesses don't. [31:06] Should you be thinking about a possible exit at all times? [33:05] What gives Ryan the “goosies”. Ok…he didn't say goosies, that was JLo. [33:58] Know what you will do with your money before you sell! [36:10] Should you plan your next brand before you sell, or stay focused? [39:29] How do you get more Ryan Daniel Moran Transcription: Mark: So if I could go back in time I would do a number of things different than I did in my entrepreneurial past especially before I sold my first company. And I have told you the story before that when I sold my first company I sold it for $165,000 only to find out that a year later the same person who bought the company got an offer for 350,000 without changing anything about the business at all. So … and there's a lot of regrets I have by not going back in time obviously I think anybody would like to have that ability. Joe: I'm glad it's that instead of saying you're bringing me on as a business partner. Mark: Well, you're here so I can't … I might not say that to your face. Only when you're on vacation and I have somebody else filling in as guest host. Joe: Well, Jason doesn't listen to the podcast, let's talk about him. Mark: Right. Exactly. Joe: Conversation … no regrets there. Yes and Daniel Ryan Moran was our guest and he talked about some of the regrets or as we called the mistakes because that's how he learns in life as many of us do by making mistakes and in trying not to make them over again. Fascinating … fascinating yes they're our podcast today Mark. I don't know if you recall … if you were there for his presentation at Smart Record over the last summer in Austin but he got up on stage and he spoke for 60 minutes with no script, no PowerPoint presentation and everybody was captivated. And the information that he has in it … volume of entrepreneurs that he works with and the velocities, and the approach, and everything about the way he does business and the way he literally … I mean not literally, preaches business. Okay, he's a … he was going to be a preacher so I want to say preacher school dropout. He chose to be an entrepreneur instead but the way that he talks about things is spot on with the way that we see the most successful entrepreneurs run their businesses. They focus on a number of different things and they implement those and maybe someday if they choose to exit they're in a great position to do so. Ryan talks about all of that including his own two exits that combined totaled over eight figures. Mark: Daniel Ryan Moran, same Moran that comes from Freedom Fast Lane right? Joe: Freedom Fast Lane Podcast where he talks about his story. You know five years ago he had a car and he drove to Austin, Texas and he decided he was going to launch an Amazon business and record his journey. And his journey is not over yet. It's on a new adventure, a different larger adventure but his journey kind of came to a new chapter after selling the last Amazon business that he had. But he talks about it all the way through on the Freedom Fast Lane Podcast. He got tired of seeing people do things the wrong way and learned ways to cheat at conferences and started to do his own conferences through capitalism.com and bringing good like-minded people together that build strong foundation long term value businesses and he talked about all of that today. Mark: Fantastic I can't wait to hear it. Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that a lot of you might know already. His name is Ryan Daniel Moran. Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Joe thanks about having me in, let's make some magic. Joe: Listen I was having a barbecue last night we had some friends over and this is an absolute true story and one of them is an entrepreneur wannabe. She's in the corporate world and she bought some Amazon products and she tried something and it didn't work but she's going to go at it again someday and she's grilling me … she always asked me how things are with Quiet Light Brokerage and she starts asking about the podcast. I said yeah we're doing all right and hey have you ever talked to Ryan Daniel Moran just like that and here you are today we're talking to you. You're kind of a little celebrity I should say … little, you're kind of a celebrity; a rock star maybe for this … look it was a 50 year old woman. She's rather attractive and she knows who you are. Ryan: Well you know it's like my ideal market is attractive 50 year old women. We all know that that's the market I'm after right now. So tell her to give me a … maybe call me maybe. Joe: She loves listening and the fact that you're first and foremost helping people that's what she loves about it. She says someday she's going to get back to it but she loves listening and she's going to take that leap at some point in the future so good for you. And listen as I said prior to the intro we don't do fancy intros. So if you would … I know it's hard to talk about yourself but give folks a little bit of background about yourself; who you are, where you came from, and what you're all about. Ryan: Yeah. I invest in and I start physical products brands. And the way that I got to that point was actually as a pastoral student back in 2006. I built my first website and started my first business in between high school and college on my shared dial-up computer in my living room and hand coded websites using raw HTML in a software program called Dreamweaver. If you are old enough to remember Dreamweaver and you know it well. So what's funny is we hear a lot of people who are talking about building and … or selling businesses thinking about the good old or either like all the opportunity is gone now or the good old days have these … man, I was hand coding websites in Dreamweaver on a dial up computer. Do you realize how much more opportunity we have now being able to build websites on platforms and sell products on Amazon? So the opportunities are way way bigger now but I was just trying to find a way to supplement my … what I expected to be $30,000 a year salary as a pastor. Now fast forward a few years I did not finish the pastoral route for reasons that would be probably best left on a second podcast that you have Joe that's going to be called quiet skepticism. Joe: Yeah, some kind of … something where we're helping people, we're guiding them off that path right. Ryan: Exactly; quiet go to the light we'll call it. And I did not finish that route and I became a full time entrepreneur. So I was in really involved in the internet marketing space for many years until I really decided or realized I hated that crowd. I didn't like hanging out with those people. So I was like what a conference where those people hung out and I took the skill set that I had from Search Engine Optimization from Pay-Per-Click Marketing from Email Copyrighting and I applied it to physical products brands. And I've had a couple of different exits in the physical products world and now I'm an investor in physical products businesses because it's what I know. It's who I can help the most. And I think it's one of the biggest upside is in the market right now whether you are selling or building a business or buying a business, I think there's a tremendous amount of white space with the transition from big brands into more what I call micro brands mostly Internet based that's where I see the biggest opportunities right now. So that's a … I've had a couple of exits and the total over billed were eight figures in cash exchange. I still own a minority stake in a few of those businesses and have a portfolio business but my primary focus is investing in physical products brands and I have a media company for entrepreneurs at capitalism.com. Joe: Okay, so when it comes to investing people look at buy versus build. In fact, we had a podcast recently with our newest broker Walker Diebel who wrote about a book called Buy Versus Build and there's a really long subtitle and it was a … it quickly rocketed to the top 10 podcasts that we have. And you're talking about investing, do you think it's better to buy versus build at this point in your career or would you recommend somebody that's just starting out to scrape some dollars together and bootstrap something and start? Ryan: Yeah, it's better for me to invest but it wasn't better for me five years ago. In 2013 when I took my first sale on Amazon.com for a physical product I know business investing in physical product brands. I know businesses buying physical products brands now … back then I was buying a lot of websites. And you know what I was buying Joe? I was buying search engine friendly websites with email lists … social media followings weren't this big back then, but with audiences, followings targeting each market that sold affiliate products; because that was what I knew. Joe: That's what you knew. Ryan: I would have been a lot of people who are like looking for the system and that you are the system. You are the machine. And your machine is unique to you. So applying your machine to different opportunities is where value is created. So for me, I'm … at this point, I have more upside as an investor because I already have all the retail connections. I have the connections to sell businesses. I'm connected to other investors. That's my own skill set but the entrepreneur who I invest in is way better suited to start that company than I am and that's what capitalism is. Where I get the value that I bring in combination of the value that you bring and when we bring them together it's greater than the sum of our arts. And so for me yeah I'm … I have more value as an investor but to say like it's better I think would be a mistake. Joe: You know I think you're absolutely right. It depends upon the individual's situation without a doubt. I bought and I've sold and I've invested as well and I can say each were successful in their own way and each were very very difficult in their own ways as well. You'll learn along the way from the mistakes mostly. Ryan: If I could Joe I will add though, I mean globally I think we're in a seller's market. I think we're looking at buying versus selling if I give it a binary choice I do think we're in a seller's market right now. Joe: I have to agree with you 100%. When we have a good quality listing come … I had a conversation with someone this morning who wants to buy. And he's a referral from somebody who already bought and this guy is doing great so I want to do what he's doing. And the response is look when a great listing comes along you need to be prepared. So the more listings you look at the more you're going to know the right shit when it comes along. And you need to be able to act fast because you and a dozen other people are doing the same thing and they're going to make an offer on that business. So I agree it's a seller's market but at the same time, the multiple still don't get pushed too high. It's still the buyer to decide that. You and I as sellers, as brokers can pick whatever number we think the value of the business is but we don't make the final decision at the end it's usually the buyer. The seller's got a lot to say about it because they can say yes or no. But it's still the buyer makes the decision in terms of the value for the most part. But you just recently said you've exited a couple of different times in the last few years. What did you learn in that process if you look at the exit? Or maybe do you want to talk about the fact … the mistakes you made maybe building and what you can do to help the entrepreneurs that are listening or perhaps the exit and maybe a little bit of both. Ryan: Yeah well, there's one thing in particular that I think was on the stake if you will and it was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. By the way, this is C money right here or by a … my … he is the one who wants to make great on the Internet. Joe: For those listening and not watching somebody just walked into the background. Ryan: Yeah, so the mistake that I made was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. And if I could redo this Joe, the truth is if you built something, if you built a business you're the one with the asset. You're the one with the goods that money is chasing you, people want to buy you and so often the seller comes into market and is like the thing that I'm after is the check and I'm hoping that I get the check and that immediately puts you in the frame in which you're the after. You're the one who is not in the power position. So we share them with an offer and the seller is like thank you please oh please Mr. Money Pants I would like your money. And now they're in a position to beat you up over earnings, over … in the negotiations. So what I wish I had done was recognize the fact that I'm the one with the goods. I'm the one with the asset that people want. I'm the one courting the offers. People are making offers to me. There they want one I got not the other way around. So if you're in that position and you're willing to say no and you combine that with the turn ship that says here's what I'm looking for, that to me puts the seller in the frame of mind repair and the negotiating position. I didn't do that. I discovered that after the fact and I really could only have learned that by going through the process. I learned … I personally learned by making mistakes and paying for them later. Joe: We all do. Ryan: Yeah but that's a mistake that I wish somebody had told me before I went to market. Joe: Or is it … the buyer that you're referring to is it a strategic buyer or did you have your business officially listed and people came to you? Ryan: Yeah, we had it listed and we were acquired by an equity group. I still own a minority stake in that company and I'm in great terms with the equity group. I'm really happy with the buyer. I have become friends and obviously business partners at this point. But had I gone to the market with terms that I wanted I probably would have ended up in a more favorable financial position when it came to closing. Joe: Well, the next time you have a transaction you'll know that and you'll be able to make adjustments. Ryan: Right. Joe: Really I think like you said the check isn't the end all, it's more about … I think almost in many ways what your next adventure is going to be. I know that a lot of folks that I work with and myself included when I exited I was just … I sold too late. I was emotionally tired and I think that's the absolute wrong time to sell. You should sell … you should plan to sell, just don't wake up and decide to sell. But when you're emotionally tired you're not doing everything that you can to maximize the profits of the business and that's going to drive down the value. And you're going to get beat up at the end if you're so committed to that check that you can't negotiate a little bit more for something else and be willing to walk away from that buyer if they're if they're not a good buyer. And correct me if I'm wrong but just tell me how you think here, I always find that it makes an enormous difference if you like the person that's buying your business or the one … if you're buying a business from. It's not just about the check. It's not just about the money. It's the people you're doing business with. And I think that as a seller you can get more value if you're respected and professional and likable and the same as a buyer, if you're a buyer and you're professional and likable and complement the owner on the business that they built that you're going to get a better transaction out of it versus all the hard core raw street negotiations. What are your thoughts on that? Ryan: I don't know if you are right or wrong because I intentionally don't do business with people that I don't like. [crosstalk 00:15:45.7] Joe: So, therefore, anybody that wants to buy a business from you if you don't like them then you've got to do that to work with somebody you like. A classic- Ryan: I don't think everybody has that mentality though. I think I would even go as far as to say the majority of people are buying and selling based on numbers or like the deal and very few entrepreneurs get to find every purchase as a person. And so I think most people are approaching it by numbers and logically rather than is there a connection here. I personally … just like for the protection of my own lifestyle am willing to say no to anything that I personally don't like. And what that does is it always puts me in a strong negotiating position because if I don't like somebody I have no problem walking away. And the person who has … the person who is most willing to walk usually has the upper hand in the negotiation. Joe: I agree 100%. I find that from a buyer's perspective one of the questions I get a lot from buyers if I'm up on a panel or speaking or something like this is how do I negotiate up against an all cash buyer, somebody that's got more money than me? And the tried and true answer is really is be likeable. It's … you don't necessarily have to have more cash to get the deal done and I … the classic example is I sold a business last fall. It was about two and a $2.5M and the guy had two full price offers within the first 10 days. One was from an all cash buyer who was a little rough around the edges and was hard to work with. The other was from a really likable guy who was buying with an SBA loan and actually required 10% seller financing in that. The entrepreneur, the seller of this business had the choice; you could go for the all cash or you can go for the guy that he liked. He actually chose the full price SBA buyer and chose to carry a 10% seller note versus working with somebody that he didn't like. So in that situation, I think it makes a difference in terms of … buyers that are listening be likable. If you're working with a broker you absolutely have to be likeable because they're … as you said it's more of a seller's market. And there's a lot of buyers out there. There are buyers that are competing for that same business and when they're likeable they're going to build rapport and when you build rapport you sometimes learn about things before they hit the market as well. Ryan, talk to me about some of the mistakes you've made in your own business. Maybe two or three of the biggest mistakes that comes up at the top of your head. Looking back and learning damn I screwed that up if I ever do that again I'm going to it a different way. Ryan: Well, every time I've made a mistake it was because I was playing the short term. So when I have made short term decisions I usually make bad decisions. I like to say that the longer term that I can make decisions the wiser I am and the better decisions that I make. I said before that people forget that behind every purchase is a person … that goes for customers too and all relationships are long term relationships. Or the best relationships are long term relationships. So if you are aware that behind every transaction is a person and you play it like it's a long term relationship you end up building the better company. Sometimes in spite of a short term decision, meaning … for example as we're recording this there's a … in the Amazon there's a thing we're calling review gate where Amazon is coming in and hit them onto your businesses and removing their reviews. And it's been a bloodbath. It's been absolute bloodbath. And the people who are soaring through it are people who have been doing of the right things the right way for the longest. And the people who are being hurt the most are the people who are the most profitable over the last couple years because they played the tactic game. And like there's absolutely room for tactics inside of every business but those who have been building really solid brands and building audiences and building followings they're going to soar right through this and capture a whole heck of a lot of market share. So the mistakes that I made were always in saying what's the Band-Aid solution here rather than building for the long term. So we take a rule now in the business that we're building, we say okay here's the situation that we're in rather than talk about how we're going to fix it let's say what do we wish we had started doing 90 days ago and that would have made today a lot easier to get through? That's the decision that we need to make today which is a really hard conversation to have when you're in reaction mode. But we force ourselves to ask that question because it usually addresses whatever the root cause is that we need to fix rather than going for a Band-Aid solution. So that being mistake number one, mistake number two would be as a leader telling people what to do. There's a great book called Multipliers that really morphed my brain in terms of how I can affect [inaudible 00:20:52.9] people. And what I realize after reading that book was that I have been diminishing the talents on my teams by telling people what I wanted them to do rather than casting a vision and inviting people to build their piece of that. Now that seems kind of a nuance and maybe overly simplistic but I couldn't emphasize enough the accountability that this book brought me on how much I was diminishing the people that I was working with, And the difference in energy and growth that happened once I started correcting those issues. So as an entrepreneur, we often have like our baby that we're bringing in to our team and we're telling people how to build the baby when reality if we're working with smart people they'll probably own that area of expertise better than we can even if we can't see it. And the big distinction of that book highlights is someone who diminishes their team is usually the smartest person in the room but a real leader makes the rest of the team like they're the smartest person in the room. And that was a huge shift in my overall happiness and with the growth of my companies and it's something that I wished that I had done before I was building companies to sell them. Joe: What kind of staffing do you have just out of curiosity? Ryan: Well, the company that I just exited was a team of four. The portfolio of companies … of brands that I have is a team of five. And my media company capitalism.com is a team of six. Joe: And are all of those people in-house or do you do some … or the VA's are they working remotely or they come to the office every day? Ryan: I'm only counting in-house people so that does not count freelancers. But no not everybody … we have … there's, we are a distributed team. So like I'm recording this in my office right now, one of my team members is just right here my side. But people will come in and out. Some people … like we have a team member in Canada, we have a team member in Germany, but they're all full time dedicated to [inaudible 00:22:47.0]. Joe: Good. I asked that because you know most people that are listening would probably be considered lifestyle entrepreneurs and they have to outsource staff and VA's and people working remotely. So it's good to know that even though they're not coming into your office every day this is really important [inaudible 00:23:02.3] get their short term vision don't have that long term vision so that you don't have major major stomach aches with algorithm updates we'll review gates in that situation and then over managing of the staff you know let them be their experts; anything else that comes to mind? Ryan: As far as big mistakes that I've made … I mean we talked about the mistake in selling and as far as building the business I'll say I wished that I had spent more money on cold advertising. Like always like there's never been a business that was like ah you know I think I spent too much on advertising. I've only ever said I wish I'd spent more on advertising. Joe: Yeah, where would you have spent it because these are primarily Amazon based businesses correct? Ryan: The businesses that I personally built, yes. Joe: Right. So where would you spend that money? Ryan: So we just identified the problem because you said they were mostly Amazon based businesses so had I done things even better I would have doubled down on non-Amazon advertising. Because what … if you're an Amazon business which is like nails on a chalkboard to me because it means you're dependent on somebody else. Joe: Right. Ryan: It means that you're dependent on this channel and you've got to go double down on building a business has a different leg to the stool and that when you combine those things together magic can happen. If you've got an email list of 100,000 people that you've built from cold advertising or from buying tripwires and now you're combining that with the power of something like Amazon.com that's really really powerful. Most physical products sellers never make that [inaudible 00:24:32.6] or they get so myopic into one channel that they never spend the money and the time to go develop the advertising for another channel. I wish I had been comfortable losing my rear end on other advertising channels until I figured out those systems. It's interesting Joe, it's true that every channel you will lose for a while and then you figure out the systems and then you start to grow through it and you get profitable. The strange thing is that most people once they've figured it out and get profitable they're unwilling to go do that hard work in another area. So the way that Amazon worked in 2013, '14, and '15 was if you spend until you grab long enough you could outrank everybody else and go win but I never … I lost that hustle when it came down to Facebook Ads or influencers and people start looking for the immediate ROI. In what business is there immediate ROI? When you're building a long term brand that has sales potential … like buyers are buying the systems; they're buying profitable systems because you've already gone through that hard work of developing the systems that are profitable. But it requires you to go build them so I wish I had spent more on advertising, been more willing to lay it on the line, rolled more back into reinvestment. So I'll call that mistake number three. Joe: So for buyers and sellers that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening it's that one legged stool, two legged stool, three legged stool. If you're 100% Amazon business it's riskier than if you also have a revenue channel from Google Ad Words and driving traffic to your Shopify store and you might be doing wholesale or B2B things of that nature but right away as I've said before if you've got a business that's just at within $100,000 in discretionary earnings that's 100% Amazon same business $100,000 in discretionary earnings but you've got 60% Amazon, 25% Shopify, I guess that would be 15% percent [inaudible 00:26:36.4] my math here, another percent of B2B that business on the other side is going to be worth 15 to 20% more. So you might be breaking even or losing a little bit of money on that land grab trying to grab more customers but if you can turn that into even the same discretionary earnings that business automatically is going to be worth 15 to 20% more because the buyers will pay more for a risk averse business that'll be around for the longer term so very very good advice. What channel would you go to first? Because there are so many options these days and building a channel off of Amazon is hard as you know. You've got to learn a whole new expertise. Where would you go first and what do most of your successful folks do? Ryan: Yeah and I'm actually going to cue on very creatively sidestepped this question because the obvious is Amazon. But where I would suggest is actually people double down on where the audience is. To me, this is the nut has to be cracked if their building a sellable company. And what that means to me it is for some people their audience hangs out following influencers. For other people that is they follow blogs or they have a blog where the audiences are already hanging out. Or some people they've got a Facebook where there's an audience. Now what most businesses, especially like a million dollar businesses, are doing is they're going channel first and trying to extract as much of it as possible. Like I'm going to go to Amazon try to rank and pull as much out of this pie as possible. Only a few people can win that game but if you switch it and you say where are my people who is the ideal buyer and where are they then the channel where you collect the order can always change. And that makes Shopify, Amazon, B2B a whole lot easier. The first nut that you have to crack isn't where the buyers hang out apart from the sales transaction and then you bring those buyers to the transaction. So the transaction to me … Amazon, easy no question. Put your product on Amazon the credit card is already there, people are already looking for it. No question, easy, done. The nut that needs to be cracked is what happens one step before that. And if there is … like if you don't have the influence, the list, the following, the traffic, the pay-per-click strategy that some way to go get those people and bring them into your ecosystem I think you are struggling from the get go and that's the primary question that I ask the entrepreneur. Joe: Yeah and I think depending upon as you say the product and what they're offering some of those different channels will make more sense. You know I had a conversation with someone this morning that has several brands and one brand has incredible numbers with email marketing and that same expertise applied to that different brand doesn't do as well. Ryan: Right. Joe: They're driving people to their Shopify store though Amazon keeps growing and out phasing everything else. So I understand identify where your customers hang out and then you've got to go find those customers. To own that list though you need to send them to your own store, not to Amazon. So are you sort of balancing between sending them to Amazon because it's all there or? Ryan: No, I just disagree. So I think that the loyalty to the brand is the customer experience. And you give the customer the ability to give you money wherever they are most comfortable making the purchase. I heard Brian Lee say where it's … Brian Lee is the founder of the Honest Company, the billion dollar brand with Jessica Alba, and I heard him say once that he considers it a win when the product is in the customer's home. That's when you've wo, not collecting it online e-commerce site, not getting into retail. It's when the product is in the customer's home. However, they get it and you want to release as little friction as possible getting the product into the customer's home. You will own the customer experience when you have their data. You have the ability to communicate a message in front of them. So if you've got the email list and you send them over to Amazon, Amazon rewards that and your conversion rate is probably going to be higher sending them to Amazon that sending them to your Shopify store. So there's a balance [inaudible 00:31:12.7] I know that I can get a higher immediate customer value sending them to my own web site because I can put them through upsells and cross sells to get their immediate data versus sending them to Amazon where I am going to have to work to get their data. I don't have any upsell experience. They might see a negative review. And so the entrepreneur is going to have to play the game of where the numbers make the most sense over the long term. But I think that the actual customer experience happens in when you communicate with them. And that's in the email message, that's in the outside of just a transaction, not just where their credit card is being added but words being communicated. Joe: Okay, I get and I'm just going to repeat it for those that are … well not smarter than me; let's put it that way. So it's capturing the customer information up front, building that relationship with them, and then simply send them to the place that they can buy the product and experience the brand with the least amount of friction and get it in their home. Ryan: Nailed it. Joe: Okay. Ryan: That's my opinion. Joe: And it all goes back I would say and it's kind of almost unspoken that the brand has to be pretty amazing so focus on that first. Build a great product, a great brand so they have a great experience and then do all that other stuff as well. Ryan: Yeah and let me address that because that often brings up the question how do I identify a brand? Like what exactly is the brand. And the brand is the way that trust is communicated to a very specific customer. Most Amazon sellers have no idea over their customers they know what their product is. If you know what you sell and not who you sell to you do not have a brand. Or you might have a brand but it's really lousy whereas if you know who the person is, it makes the product really really easy. I was just meeting with one of my team members today; we were expressing the frustration over one of our brands in our portfolio. Because when we acquired it, it sold a lot of product but it had no target market. And so we've had to do a lot of work to convert that brand into an actual brand where people are not just buying a product but they're buying something and it says about them sells. Those businesses last, product businesses don't because they're commodities. You forget about commodities and the minute that there's a better price or better customer experience their loyalty changes. But when you've got the brand people are very stingy with their trust. I want to give it to you, you have them for as long as you keep their trust. Joe: Very important message right there. Ryan, any thoughts in terms of whether someone should be building this business and always think about the future and possible exits; do you try to instill in them that they should know the value of their business in the event they wake up some day and want to move on or do you just focus on building that brand and when you're ready the time will come? Ryan: You know the real … the temptation for me is to say that no, you shouldn't be necessarily thinking about selling but I know that I'm in a different spot than everyone who's listening. So I would say if you are building this to make money, be building it to sell from day one. Because the very act of being in it for the money means that you will burn out, you will wake up and want to do something else. It's going to happen. So if that … and like let's just be real about it, if you're in it because of the payday, build it to sell because that's what you're in it for and the payday is the cherry at the end of the rainbow here. If you were in it because you've got a product you want to bring to the world then still develop the systems and processes that will keep you in the position to be in your zone of genius. And that will make you more sellable one day but I don't think it's necessary for you to know what it's worth or be making decisions based on that. So these are different goals. Now I build companies that I'm excited about and I am building them in the same way that we make something valuable because I want to be in a position where I'm just in my zone of genius. But it's a different mindset than if I'm building something because it's going to be profitable. Does that make sense Joe? Joe: Absolutely; excellent …excellent. Hey listen I know we're running out of time here I just want to say that last summer I was at the stock market conference and you got up and you spoke as did another dozen or so very very successful entrepreneurs. Each and every one of them had a PowerPoint presentation. You got up there with nothing. And you talked for an hour and the audience was captivated as was I. You have a gift thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. Ryan: I just got goose bumps. Thank you so much, mate. I really appreciate it. Joe: How do more people get to experience that and listen to you and hear what you do share? Ryan: You know I'd love to answer that question, can I offer one more piece of advice before we go? Joe: You can offer a dozen more pieces of advice. Ryan: Wow, awesome. I'll leave it to one but if you are in this to please have a plan of what you're going to do with the money when you get it. Entrepreneurs are magicians. We remake things up here on thin air. We create value out of thin air. We create a bigger pie. We make money show up. And we also make things disappear. Joe: Isn't that true? Ryan: And if you do not have a plan of what you're going to do with the money it will slip through your fingers. I know you think you're the exception. I know you think all I have to do is invest this at 8% and I'm [inaudible 00:37:11.5]. I know you think that's how it's going to be. You will ball the money. I … right now I just heard you think “no I won't”, yes you will. So if you don't have a net for catching the money and allocating the money for your lifestyle you will be back in the grind very very quickly. I promise you, I know you don't believe me. I'm here to tell you that's the case. Have a plan for what to do with the money once you get the money. It's actually my favorite conversation to have. At some point, I'll probably have more chops [inaudible 00:37:45.3] about investing once you have a big windfall. But for now, it's like have a plan like a plan is better than no plan. And that plan would probably be best done after you sat on the money for about six months and you've gotten used to that money being in the bank account. Your second question or actually your only question was- Joe: Can I interrupt that? Ryan: Please. Joe: I definitely want to get to that but in terms of having the plan to exit, I'm always telling people look have your next adventure planned. Because entrepreneurs like you say they blow through the money, it goes through their hands like saying. I'm often saying maybe get that other opportunity started and launched long as it's not competing to get the ball rolling. So that you got some working capital maybe you're going to put it in … some of it you're not as bootstrapped although you'll be more successful probably if you are. Do you think maybe they should 100% focus on what they're doing on that brand before they sell it up until the day they sell or maybe when it gets big enough and good enough and they've done enough right they can take some of their attention and start Brand B while they're selling off Brand A? Ryan: Wow, Joe. The reason I'm saying wow is because my experience is pretty unique and that was I took about a week off and then I immediately went back to workaholism and it was the worst. It was a horrible experience. Now full disclose like at the same time I was going through separation and I'm going through a lot life changes. I threw myself into work right after the sale. I celebrated by reading books on my patio for like eight days and I was immediately back to workaholism. And I like … I roasted my body, I mean I so needed a break and I did not give myself that break. I don't know if every entrepreneur was as burnt out as I was. I was more burnt out than I [inaudible 00:39:40.5]. Joe: Most ideal [inaudible 00:39:42.8] they come to me tired, exhausted, ready to move on. Ryan: Joe, it's been over a year. I wouldn't even say I'm back now. You know I'm probably operating at 75% of capacity because I never really recovered. So should you go right back into it? I don't know. I think it depends on the level you're at and your own wiring. I make really good decisions when I'm relaxed and creative. I make terrible short term decisions when I'm stressed. And when I'm in that workaholic mode I'm a terrible entrepreneur. I wish I had just blissed out for like three months; I didn't. Joe: I don't know what the folks that listen to you every week would do if you would disappear for three months though. Ryan: Well here's the thing though Joe. I kind of did. Like my podcast sucked for like three months, three to six months and I was trying … like I'm sitting in front of mic trying to come up with things to say and I was uncreative as heck. So I sort of did disappear it was just a different way. And now I'm getting back to it and it's a completely different experience. But I actually think I did my listeners a disservice by not taking a break. And if have been just really upfront and be like guys I just got an eight figure check I am going to the beach and I will call you when I'm ready. My audience would've popped but instead, I was like operating from this place of like I'm so … oh my goodness I'm so tired and I turned off a lot of people. I know it's not the answer that you expected it's not the answer I expected to give you. Joe: No, I like it. Ryan: But I think it's true. Joe: I think sleep and rest and meditation or whatever it is to focus on is absolutely necessary. So back to that original question and you know finding out what they do with the money after they sell. How do they get more of Ryan Daniel Moran? How do they experience what that audience down at Smart Market and myself experienced where you just talked and everybody listened and took notes and all that? Ryan: Well, thanks so much, man, my media company is capitalism.com. My podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. And I say things into a microphone and we hold events at capitalism.com that are specifically for entrepreneurs. And we're actually … we just rebooted the Freedom Fast Lane podcast. I feel as though- Joe: With fresh energy. Ryan: What's that? Joe: With fresh energy right? Ryan: Well yeah, I think you'd probably feel it from me. Five years ago I started this journey as a boy and I was … I just put everything I owned into my car, drove to Austin, Texas, started some new companies, I documented the whole experience from startup to sale. And then I kind of grew up while documenting the journey. And now there's a new journey and it's a much bigger one and so we just rebooted kind of the entire audience, the whole experience in the podcast. And my podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. My company is capitalism.com. Joe: Okay. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. I'd love to see you be more successful on this new adventure, this bigger journey. Ryan: Thank you. Joe: Let's stay in touch. I think I may see you at the capitalism conference at the end of August; let's see. At the very least we'll be to as many as we can be over the next few years. Ryan: Good to see you man, thank you so much for having me. Joe: Thanks for your time, I appreciate it. Links: Capitalism.com FreedomFastlane.com

The Bant Wheel Saskatoons Music you listened to as a kid? The World Cup The Recommendations Jon: Romance By The Gloomies Ryan: It’s Alive! With Brad Tim: Over the Garden Wall

Ryan Johnson, Head Copywriter at IWT (short for I Will Teach, Ramit Sethi’s company) steps up to the microphone with Kira and Rob for the 53rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This interview covers a lot of ground, including: •  how after a grueling interview in his car, Ryan failed to get a job with IWT only to get hired a few months later (never give up) •  how to get inside the head of your client so you can speak with his or her voice •  his process for laying out all the moving pieces of a launch, and •  how he maps emotions to his launch plans so customers can’t wait to respond •  the 7 deadly email funnel sins •  two reasons to use long-form sales pages •  the “leap stacking” technique he uses to help his writers uplevel their skill (and what doesn’t work when trying to improve) Plus Ryan shares the “copy levers” that Gary Bencivenga used to get better at his craft, how he avoids writer’s block, and the one thing he would do if he had to start his career all over. Lots of good stuff packed into this episode. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ramit Sethi The Briefcase Technique Jay Abraham IWT AIDA Gary Bencivenga Abbey Woodcock Justin Blackman The Headline Project Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, and then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 53 as we chat with in house copywriter, Ryan Johnson, about he became a copywriter and landed a job writing for Ramit Sethi, how he tackles a massive launch, capturing the voice of your client, and how long it takes him to write a 50 plus page sales letter. Ryan, welcome. Rob: Yes, welcome Ryan. Ryan: Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. Kira: Yeah, it’s great to have your here, and I think a great place to start is just with your story of how did you end up becoming a copywriter? Ryan: It was kind of a circular process to copywriting. I didn’t even know what copywriting was at the very beginning. My original interests were in film and creative writing, which led me into a delightful career waiting tables. After a few years of that, my first real job was in instructional design, and I was editing textbooks, and building training programs. I actually ended up designing an associates degree in business. I packaged and edited textbooks on business, and economics, and entrepreneurship before I realized that doing that was with no experience was totally crazy. But it was a good baseline. But while I was doing this, I can still remember. I was in the middle of editing this 500 page textbook on economics, which is about as exciting as it sounds, and my wife was working as a creative copywriter, and she was getting paid much, much more than me to edit this glossy one page ad. It looked like so much fun and so much easier than what I was doing. I’m like, “I’m doing something wrong, ‘cause there’s clearly a cap on where I am, and there’s no clap over here.” So shortly after I figured out how I could transition into marketing, into copywriting. It’s been a race every since. Rob: You’re working as an in house copywriter, but what does that look like today? What is the day to day ... How do you spend your time? What are you working on? Those kinds of things. Ryan: Yeah, so with Ramit at IWT / Growth Lab, I am the head of the sales team and the editorial tea...

Wolf Alice...Wolf Alice? It's one of those band names like 10,000 Maniacs that reminds you that band names are less about musical content and more about whats funny when you are having beers after band practice... Metallica=Metal+Vodka (not making this up) Was gonna show some more examples, but do I really need to? SO...podcast overlord Chris Cox hates it when I do this, but he's the MAN so fuck it...I'm gonna post some spoilers... Wolf Alice's first LP "My Love Is Cool" (again with the inside jokes?) is one of my absolute favorite records of the last 10 years, I cannot overstate how much I love that album. It is a home run top to bottom. I was hoping "Visions of a Life" by Wolf Alice wasn't a Sophomore slump and when I listened to it I... Podcast Overlord Chris Cox--"Shane!" Shane--"Whatever you're not my real dad..." POCC--"Seriously?! You've been doing this for 3 years!" Shane--"Whatever you're not my real dad..." (inaudible) Upon reflection, I feel that I should perhaps let the listeners of "Somebody Likes It" make their own minds up about " Visions of a Life" by Wolf Alice... Next exciting episode Ryan picked DREAM THEATER!!! *Ryan--*Dude!? *Shane--*What?! *Ryan--*It's not Dream Theater! And you know this. Shane--zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (ok fine, its Dream Syndicate...but that's way more boring right?) Buy This Week's Vinyl on Amazon A Few Minutes With [**Ash** - Kung Fu][2] A Current Affair [**Queens Of The Stone Age** - The Evil Has Landed][3]

My guest this week is professional audio engineer Ryan Monette. Ryan graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in Music Production & Engineering. For the last 4.5 years he's been the Post-Production Audio Engineer on staff at Elevation Church, in Charlotte, NC, where he mixes their global TV show, and has many other responsibilities (boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, etc.). You may have heard some of his work, as he sound-designed and mixed the opener video for the Circles conference for the past two years. He even had his own podcast for a short while (TheQueuecast.com). I asked Ryan to come on the show to share his journey towards becoming a professional audio engineer (a job that I've always wanted), and to get him to share some tips for anyone interested in working in audio/video professionally.Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins:Think long term and dream big.If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone.Take advantage of free online courses to learn more about audio engineering.Get started with whatever you have.Your mix may sound completely different in a different environment, so listen with different headphones/speakers in different locations.Master the basics and keep going back to them.If you’re mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent.When mixing, always use a reference track.Show NotesAaron: You graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in music production and engineering. For the last five years, you’ve been the post production audio engineer for Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. You have a lot of jobs there: boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, and you mix their global TV show. Do you mix that live?Ryan: Not necessarily. We can get into that later. There’s a process for that.Aaron: Some of the creative people here might have heard of some of your work. You sound designed and mixed the opening videos for the past two years of Circles Conference, which I was at. Have you been there for the past two years?Ryan: I haven’t been personally, no. I have wanted to go. I love it from afar, and I want to go in person.Aaron: I wanted you to come on this show because when I first got started, I had dreams of being a professional audio engineer. I thought, “How cool would it be to work in audio and get paid for it? That’d be awesome!”I fell backwards into it by doing podcast editing as a hobby first, then for money, then I met Sean McCabe and ended up working for him full time. I edit podcasts and help out with a ton of other stuff. I asked you to come on the show to share your advice for anyone who’s interested in working in audio/video professionally, and to talk about how you got there yourself. So tell me a little bit about how you got into audio. When did you first realize that this was something you wanted to do?Ryan’s Journey to Becoming a Professional Audio EngineerRyan: I love listening to your podcast, Aaron, and what I love about it is I feel like you and I have a lot of similarities in our backgrounds. You’re a musician, a drummer, and I’m also a musician. I play several things. My primary instrument is bass, but along with that, I started on piano. I picked up bass, and with the bass I picked up guitar. I took some drum lessons here and there as well.I sing as well. I dabbled in a little bit of everything. I’m kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. I’m okay at a lot of things, but I’m not superb at one thing. Anyway, right around junior high or high school, I started playing the bass. I started playing in little bands here and there. When it came time for college, I had no clue what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I loved music.Aaron: Same here!Ryan: I was living in Las Vegas at the time, so I decided, well, everyone has to have that college experience, and I didn’t want to go to college in the same city, so I decided that I needed that “being away from home” experience. I went to the University of Nevada, Reno. I took your basic, general classes, not knowing what I wanted to do. At this time, for my high school graduation, I had received a graduation present of a Macbook Pro.With that, of course, you get the wonderful iLife suite, including Garageband. As a musician, a whole new world was opened up to me. When I was in a band in high school, I was the gear head—I loved the PA and putting cables together.I was drawn to that. Once I had this Macbook Pro with Garageband and I had my bass and my guitar in my dorm, I was like, “I can create music!” I figured out how to work it and record myself. I bought a USB microphone, and that world was opened up. When I was there, I had a friend, and her brother went to this school where all they learned about was music. I was like, “Wait, you can do that? You can go to school for just music?”That’s how I found out about Berklee School of Music. I applied, and you have to audition as well. I applied and auditioned, and the first time I tried, I actually didn’t get into the music school I wanted to go to.Aaron: This sparks something in my mind. I feel like I might have read an article about Berklee or looked into it and thought, “No, they’re really strict on who they accept, based on your performance.” That was intimidating to me at the time, because I never felt like I was that good of a drummer.Ryan: It was intimidating for me, too. Clearly, I wasn’t up to par.Aaron: Yet you went for it. That’s more than a lot of people would do.Ryan: Yeah. After I finished my first year at UNR, I moved back to Vegas and went to UNLV, the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I took all music classes, forgetting the general ed stuff you need to get a degree. I took all music classes—music theory, because I had never had actual music theory classes, so I thought I needed that. With that, there were some audio classes that I took as well. I was like, “Hey, I like this audio thing.”At the University of Nevada Las Vegas, I had my first exposure to a formal audio class, where I learned all the proper techniques. Later on that year, I applied and auditioned again for Berklee. I got accepted, and the next year, I moved to Boston and went to Berklee for about three and a half years. Then I graduated. When I went to Berklee, the only thing that drew me as a major was Music Production and Engineering. I naturally loved the gear side of things. I fell in love with recording. I was like, “This is what I want to do.”Aaron: You got to spend three and a half years there, studying and learning?Ryan: It is non-stop, 24/7, music, audio, and to be honest, I miss being in that environment so much.Aaron: That sounds fantastic. I always love setting aside time to take online classes, read books, and listen to interviews about audio.Think Long-TermAaron: You were drawn to the audio engineering stuff, and then you graduated.Ryan: I can remember a specific time in my life, and I’m pretty sure it was my last semester at Berklee. They went by semesters instead of years. It was in one of my capstone classes. Our instructor asked us the typical, “Where do you see yourself in five years?” question.Aaron: I love that question now. I hated it when I was 22.** Think long term and dream big**Aaron: Plan out where you want to be, because if you can envision it, then you can figure out how to get there. But you have to start by saying, “I want to do this thing someday.” For me, it was, “I want to do work from a laptop. How do I get there?” Now I’m there. So you were 22 and someone asked you, “Ryan, where do you want to be? Where do you see yourself in five years?”Ryan: At that moment, I was trying to figure that out, naturally, as you do when you’re approaching the end of college. While I was at Berklee, I loved music. I loved recording music, but my absolute favorite class—they only had one of them, but it was the class I yearned for, that I wanted to take and put in all these extra hours for—was audio for visual media, audio for video.By far, that was my favorite class. The whole class, we were working toward our final project. You choose a five to seven minute clip from a well known movie, and all the audio is completely stripped. You have to recreate everything. That’s all the dialogue, all the foley, all the ambient background, all the hard effects, and so on. You have to connect with a film scoring student there at Berklee, and they have to provide the score. I absolutely loved every aspect of that project and the process. When it came time to decide what I wanted to do with my life, it was between audio engineering at a recording studio, working at Disney as an Imagineer, or doing audio at a church.I have always been involved with church, playing on worship teams and whatnot, so I also saw myself doing audio for a church. Long story short, I was really privileged to dip my feet in all of those things after college. After I graduated, I moved back to Las Vegas. Eventually, I found an incredible recording studio, probably one of the top two recording studios in Las Vegas, and I landed an internship.First Audio Engineering JobsRyan: I say “internship” loosely, because your typical studio internship is all the stereotypical grunt work—taking out the trash, doing the coffee, and whatnot. I showed up, and they were like, “You went to Berklee? Berklee guys are cool. Here, hop in this session and help us out.” It was open to me, thrown at me, and next thing I knew, I was assisting on sessions with huge clients, I won’t name drop.Aaron: You can drop a couple of names if you want.Ryan: I had a pretty fun time helping out with a session with the famous engineer Eddie Kramer, who is engineering for Carlos Santana.Aaron: Dang, man! That’s awesome.Ryan: That was pretty incredible. But while I was there, I had this gut feeling inside of me saying, “This isn’t it.”Aaron: It’s fine, but it’s not quite right?Ryan: I could see myself staying there and working my way up, but it didn’t feel right. A few months after I realized that I didn’t want to stay at the studio, I applied and was offered a job at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida.I packed my bags, moved to Orlando, and I was working as a stage technician at the Epcot park. There, they found out that I was an audio guy, so they pushed me toward the live audio side of things. I was mixing shows and bands at Epcot and what was at the time Downtown Disney, now Disney Springs, area. Same thing. Almost as soon as I got there, the same gut feeling came in.I was like, “This isn’t it. I’m more of a studio engineer. I definitely don’t want to do live stuff.” Although I love Disney, it just wasn’t sitting right. I was only there three months before the next great opportunity came up, which is where I am right now. One of my friends told me about a job opening for this church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Elevation Church. I had actually been following them because of their podcast.At the time, I was kind of like, “I’ve got a job, whatever.” For some reason, I ended up on their website, looking at the job. I was reading, and I was like, “Wait a minute, they’re looking for someone to do audio for video. That’s what I really want to do!” On a whim, I threw out my resume. Next thing you know, I’ve been here going on five years.Aaron: Did you mention that you were a podcast listener when you sent in your resume?Ryan: Yeah.Aaron: The connections you can make through podcasting is really incredible.Ryan: It is. And I’ve been working there for 5 years now.How to Get Into Audio EngineeringAaron: I want to jump into what you do at your job at Elevation, but let’s pause and do a section on what advice you would tell someone who’s wanting to get started. I wrote a couple of things down here. I think it’s hilarious that you got a Macbook and your first microphone was a USB microphone.Ryan: Which was the Blue Snowball, by the way.Aaron: That’s the worst microphone!Ryan: I had no idea how to use it, either. If I find some of the earliest recordings I did, there are times I’m clipping to the max, square waves.Aaron: Probably bad mic technique, too. But hey; it got you started!If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone.Any USB mics will work for getting started. I like the Blue Yeti, but it’s like $100. The ATR-2100 is fine, too. You just have to get something that can record some audio and start playing with it.Start playing with Garageband. Start playing with the free programs. Learn how to enable recording on a track, how to set your input device to the microphone, how to set your output device to wherever your headphones are plugged into, whether that’s your mic or your computer. It took me so long to figure that stuff out. I was like, “Why can’t I hear the audio in my headphones? What is going on?”Ryan: Same here.Aaron: You have to set input and output, then you have to record enable or do the input monitoring, all that stuff. But start with the USB microphone. Take some basic classes. There are so many great online classes. If you don’t have any money at all, if you’re super broke like I was when I started, watch some free YouTube videos. Read a book.Ryan: If you go to Coursera.org, they’re a website where you can pay to take online courses and get certifications and whatnot, but they also offer free online courses. They even offer free online courses from Berklee. I’ve seen a music production class there. I’ve taken a free online song writing class.Check out free online courses, because they can be a pool of incredible knowledge.I took a photography class on there. Coursera is a great place. They’re great if you want to take free online courses.Aaron: There are places where you can learn all this stuff. You just have to invest some time. You really just have to start: Don’t wait until you have $500 for an interface and $200 for some professional headphones and microphone. Whether you want to start a podcast, start recording audio for a video, or record and mix a demo for a band, start doing something.Stop spending all your time thinking about how you can’t do anything because you don’t have certain gear or you’re not in the right place. You’ll learn as you do, especially in audio. You’re going to make a ton of mistakes.Ryan: That’s how you learn, though! That’s one of the most valuable things I’ve learned in life. You learn from your mistakes.Aaron: You don’t really learn when everything goes well.Just StartAaron: Any other advice you would give somebody, thinking back on how you got to where you are right now?Ryan: Honestly, you hit the nail on the head with “just start.” It’s as simple and cliche as Nike, “Just do it.” There is always going to be the next latest craze, the gear, and we’ve all been susceptible to that. We say, “Oh, well, I could do this if I had X.” It starts with the drive and determination, wanting to do it. There’s knowledge out there everywhere. You just have to dig for it.Chances are, you have at least something you can start with. Record something on your phone.Aaron: I have a friend who makes some awesome music on his iPhone.Ryan: Oh, totally. It’s as simple as getting an adapter. You can plug your guitar or whatever into your phone.Aaron: Kids these days have it so easy!Ryan: You have Garageband on your phone. I remember when I was figuring this out in high school, and we actually had a four track tape recorder. That was my first start. Get started with whatever you have.Aaron: What kind of stuff do you do at the church? What’s your day to day life like? Are you there every day, or is it just a couple of days a week?Ryan: Oh no, I’m definitely there every day. It has been a whirlwind for sure. In the past five years, I have probably played every audio role that there is to be played here. My main thing now is audio for broadcasts, pretty much anything that leaves the church. Our biggest output is the sermon, which goes to a lot of places.It also goes in the TV episode, which we talked about, which goes locally, nationally, and, I believe, globally as well. That’s a lot of what I’ve done. We also create a lot of films, short films, for our worship experiences, anything you can imagine that’s video and audio related. Audio post production, like we talk about. I’m constantly on video shoots using field recorders, the boom op, anything you can think of. Audio for video, I’ve done it.The Gear Ryan UsesAaron: Let’s talk about your gear a little bit. What kind of stuff are you using most in everyday life? I’ll do a quick recap: I have the Shure Beta 87A Mic as my main podcasting microphone. It’s attached to a Scarlett 18i20 USB Interface (update: I’m now using my Zoom H6 exclusively), which is plugged into a quadcore iMac that’s a couple years old.Nothing super fancy, but I’m really happy with where I am. I remember wanting all this stuff back in 2011, thinking how awesome it would be to have it. I have a Zoom H6 portable recorder and a couple of SM58 microphones. I’ve been pairing down my gear collection because I’m planning on moving in the spring.What kind of stuff are you working with? I use Logic Pro X for editing, and then Izotope iZotope RX 5 for cleaning up background noise or fixing clipping. What about you? What’s your day to day favorite gear?Ryan: We use a lot. There’s a bunch of gear for field recording and then in my office, which is where I’m at right now. I’ll start with my office. Right now, I’m talking into my personal mic, which is a Rode NT1A. It’s very affordable.The Rode NT1A is a nice beginner mic which works and sounds great, and I use it for a lot of voiceover projects.Aaron: I like those mics.Ryan: I’m talking into that right now. We also use the Shure SM7B. We have a nice Neumann that we’ll use for bigger projects. We like to use Universal Audio Interfaces, so I’ve got one of those. They’re great. They’re rock solid. You really can’t beat them.At our main recording/editing audio work station, we use Pro Tools. That’s very standard, and I’ve been using that for years and years. I use a lot of plugins. I use a lot of the Waves Plugins. I do use RX as well, and that’s the bulk of it. I do a lot of processing, depending on the project.I have a really huge sound library for if I’m doing narrative pieces that involve sound design, sound effects. I have a great app called Audio Finder, which a lot of electronic musicians use to help them find sounds. I use it to help me find sounds. It’s a nice way to catalogue sounds if you’re a sound designer or anything like that.You can basically tag all these audio files with meta data, and you can search for sounds by their title. Or, if you type in a word in the search bar, it can pull up things based off the the metadata. If you have notes on something, it can find it. Audio Finder is a great way to find sounds.I have some other things in here. I have the Artist Mix Controller made by Avid. I use those if I’m automating stuff. I use those a lot, actually, when I’m mixing the sermons. I do a lot of automation for that. If I’m mixing a piece with a music bed or something, I like to automate the music by hand.It feels more natural, as opposed to clicking and making little dots. That’s the bulk of it here in the office. All of our audio engineers have a nice pair of Focal monitors. I also have another set of monitors I built myself. When I mix TV episodes, I have an output routed to a TV here in my office so I can hear how it translates on TV speakers.Recording Audio for VideoRyan: On the front end of things, if we’re doing shoots for videos, we use Sound Devices field recorders. We have three different models: the Sound Devices 788T 8 Channel Recorder, a 702 2 Channel Recorder, and then a 633 6 Channel Recorder. That last one is one of their newer models, which is great.Sound Devices are steep in price, but they are rock solid.One of the most trustworthy, well known field recorder brands on the market. That’s what you’ll see on pretty much every big budget shoot in some way. I do a lot of freelance on the side, which gives me the opportunity EPK shoots or BTS shoots for, recently, a show on HBO called Outcast.Aaron: Outcast? I’ve been seeing that (I watch Westworld).Ryan: I’m pretty sure it’s the same writers or producers or something. I know it’s the same writer as The Walking Dead. They shoot here in North Carolina, so with a local production company, we’ve done some interviews with some of the cast and crew. It’s been really neat to be on set and see what they’re using. It’s cool to see how similar their world is to what we’re doing day to day, just with more money and more resources.It’s the same thing. Most of their audio guys have some sort of Sound Devices. A lot of them use the 788 as a backup recording rig, and they’ve got larger multitrack recorders as well, that are also made by Sound Devices. Sound Devices is a great brand. They’re crazy expensive, but when you buy that, you know you’ve basically got it for life.Aaron: Yeah, I’m looking at the Sound Devices 788T SSD 8 Channel Portable Solid State Audio Recorder. It’s almost $7,000. I love that! So fancy.Ryan: That SSD does have an internal hard drive. Ours has a hard drive as well, so it’s great, because it has the internal hard drive, but you can also use CF cards. You can record on two different mediums. In case something runs out of space, you have it in two places.Aaron: This is super professional stuff.Ryan: Yeah. It is. It’s top of the line.Aaron: Fantastic. For all the rest of you, just go with the Zoom H4N or the H6.Ryan: Hey, we do have a Zoom H4N, and we do use that every now and then. Before I came on staff, our first field recorder was the Zoom H4N.Aaron: If I could start over and go back to before I had any kind of interface at all, I think I would buy myself an H4N or an H6. Not only are they portable field recorders so you can walk around with them—they have little stereo condensor mics on them—but they work as audio interfaces, too. You can plug it into your computer with a USB cable and record straight to your computer if you do any kind of podcasting or stuff like that.It’s good for the price. Otherwise, the little two channel interfaces are great. They’re about $100 for a good one, but they aren’t portable. You can’t take them to a show or out to a video shoot the way you can an H4N or an H6 or something.Ryan: Speaking of Zoom, they’ve recently come into the more professional field recording market. About a year ago, they releases the F8, I believe, which is an 8 channel field recorder with 8 mic pres. It’s $999 for something very comparable to a Sound Device. It’s not quite as high-fidelity, but for anyone starting out, you’re really not going to notice the difference.Mixing On Expensive Headphones or MonitorsAaron: I was going to ask you this earlier. You mentioned that you had Focal monitors. Did you listen to the episode I did a few episodes back where I talked about mixing on headphones (Episode 69: Do You Need Expensive Headphones to Mix a Podcast?)?Ryan: Yes, I did.Aaron: I mix on $10 Panasonics. What do you think about that? You can be totally honest with me. You can tell me that it’s a stupid idea or that it’s okay.Ryan: I agree to a certain extent. I agree that you should be listening to what you’re making on whatever the majority of people are going to be listening to it on. For a lot of audio engineers mixing music, that’s iPod earbuds, those standard earbuds you get. Something like that. When I mix TV, I have an output routed to a TV in my office, so I can hear it on TV speakers.I do also believe in mixing on something with some sort of higher fidelity type of monitoring environment, whether that’s nicer speakers or nicer headphones. Naturally, you’re going to hear things differently. The main thing to take away is how things translate.If you’re listening to something on one source and you make it sound good there, that’s great, but in a different environment, it may sound completely different.iPhone earbuds may not have the bass that a car stereo has. You want to hear how it translates from one thing to another. That’s why it’s good to at least listen to it on two different sources and not just narrow yourself down to one cruddy thing. That’s good in theory, but again, the key takeaway is translation.Aaron: Maybe it’s a little bit different for me and I can get away with it because of the consistency of the microphones and the recording environment set we use.Ryan: Yeah, totally.Aaron: I think if I was doing more stuff like you are, with videos and clients and all that kind of stuff, I would absolutely be using my higher fidelity headphones.Ryan: Very true. The bulk of your work is dialogue, podcasts.Aaron: Yeah, that’s really it. Just dudes talking into a microphone.Ryan: Yeah. I have done a lot of work here where I’m working in a small studio, but a lot of my mixes have played in auditoriums and arenas.If you’re working on projects like music or film that have different audio frequencies and spectrums, remember that sound will be perceived differently in different places.Aaron: How do you even test for that?Ryan: Here, I at least have a sense of how our auditorium sounds, so I’ve trained my ear to hear in advance and understand how it’s going to translate. For something like when we did a live recording in the biggest arena here in Charlotte, we had a video opener piece. I was on point for mixing that, so basically, I had to work with tech and production to find a time after setup where I can bring my session, copy it onto a laptop, and play it through the PA.Then I can make any final mix tweaks there in the auditorium or the arena. I perfected it in my studio, and any small tweaks I was able to do in that actual environment. Granted, a lot of the times, we may not have that luxury. There are also great plugins you can buy that simulate different monitoring environments, like Sonarworks.If you have certain pairs of headphones, you can tell the program, “I have these headphones, now make my mix sound like it’s coming through these headphones or these speakers,” so you can hear how it might translate. In that program, they have a final output like the Beats headphones. You can hear how it might sound on there, super bass heavy.Aaron: I hear they’re getting better, but I still have never bought any Beats headphones. I probably should (just for testing purposes).Ryan: There are definitely programs out there to help you see how things translate to different monitors.On Location GearRyan: We were talking about the gear we use for on location recording. Sound Devices would be our main recorders. For our mics, we use Schoeps. It’s a shotgun microphone, so it’s a narrow polar pattern with good off axis rejection. Schoeps is a great brand. Again, you’ll see this on professional movie sets.That’s the mic we use. We have some Sennheiser shotguns as well, the ME66, we have a couple of those, which is more their entry shotgun mics. Recently, I rented some of the MKH416.Aaron: I would like one of those. The Sennheiser 416 is well known as the classic TV shotgun mic, right?Ryan: Exactly. I rented those out because I wanted to try it out for that reason. The Schoeps is very good and very well known on set as well, but so is the 416. I rented it to try it out. It’s a trusted mic that a lot of people use for these professional things, and it doesn’t really break the bank for what it is.Aaron: They’re like $1,000, I think.Ryan: Yeah, and it sounded great.Aaron: The next mic I get is either going to be that or the Rode NTG 3.Ryan: I’ve heard a lot of great things about that. I haven’t tried one myself.Aaron: That’s the shotgun mics we shot my podcasting courses with.Ryan: Yeah, I know that Sean uses that for all of his videos.Aaron: I’m excited about getting to go work with those (I’m moving to San Antonio in March or April).Master the BasicsAaron: That’s a pretty good run through of your gear. I’m sure you could keep going and discuss a lot more, but I don’t think we need to go into that. It seems like you guys are at a super professional, high quality. You have made big investments in professional gear, which is fantastic. I encourage everyone to strive for that, to aim for that, but like we said earlier, use what you have right now. I don’t have anything close to what you guys have, but I’m still doing my podcast. I’m doing the best I can with what I have.Ryan: It still sounds great.Aaron: Thanks! It’s mostly just knowing how to set gain levels and not having a noisy room. It’s crazy how far the basics will get you— everything else is just icing on the cake.I’ve been watching this video course called Zen and the Art of Work, which I really recommend to everybody. It’s mindfulness training mixed with productivity training, which is such a great combination.In this course, he says, “So many of the masters continually revisit the basics.” Mastery is staying on a path. It’s not reaching some final goal, it’s more about being with the work and investing in getting better, but also revisiting the basics. He was talking about playing piano. He was like, “A lot of times, I just start by touching the keys, pressing the keys, and then doing basic scales over and over again.”It’s true. When you get so good at the basics that you don’t have to think about it, that’s when you start to expand and get to that level where people say, “Wow, you’re so good at that. How did you get so good?” You’re like, “That was just doing the basics. It’s not anything fancy.”It’s so important to master the basics and keep going back to them.Learning MoreAaron: What’s next for you? How do you invest in yourself and improve? Or are you working so much that you always have more learning opportunities? Do you buy books or courses or follow any websites to learn more about this audio stuff?Ryan: Honestly? We had a shift at work to where my role has shifted to mainly just broadcasts. That has enabled me to have a little bit more flexibility and free time, so I’ve been doing a lot more freelance work. That’s great, because it energizes me and keeps me engaged. It keeps me from routine. Routine is great.I love routine, that’s very much my personality, but freelance work keeps things interesting.For me, it’s all about where and how I can get inspired and constantly feeding that. It’s about feeding my desire for creativity. We’re all creatives. We like to create. We were designed to be creators, really. Everything I try to do is about how I can become a better creator and what I can create next. It’s about finding things that inspire me, really. We touched lightly on a few of the resources that I like, things I’ve learned and places I’ve picked things up.If you’re interested in audio for post production, there are a couple of great books by Ric Viers. I have two books by him that are really great. The first one is The Sound Effects Bible, and it’s not just sound effects in there. He talks about everything from gear to microphones, basics, setting proper gains, compression, some mixing techniques, etc. He also has The Location Sound Bible.There are a lot of similarities, but there’s also a lot of talk about gear, shotgun mics, lop mics, recorders, and then he also dives into some of the basics when it comes to mixing, proper gain staging, and so on. Those are a really great pool of knowledge in book form. There are a lot of other books out there, but I have found those two to be really helpful.Other than that, when it comes to audio for video, it’s a very small, niche field. There isn’t a crazy amount of stuff out there, like there might be for mixing music. For that, you’ve got tons. You’ve got Pensado’s Place, all these people on YouTube putting out channels on mixing, mixing from home, mixing on a budget, etc. There’s plenty of that.Aaron: Graham Cochrane and Joe Gilder are pretty awesome resources for anyone who wants to start a home studio.Ryan: YouTube can be a pool of knowledge for anything and everything, too. You have to dig a little bit and do some searching. On the inspiration side, for me, since I love audio for video, Sound Works Collection is a great place. They’ll do mini videos interviewing the sound people that did sound for X movie. Whether it was the last Harry Potter or anything and everything, big budget films, they’ll sit down with the recording people, the sound designers, the mixers…It’s really cool, because they’ll show footage of them doing stuff on location or the foley artists. It’s cool to see their process. For me, that helps me stay inspired. It gives me ideas to do other things. They have a podcast as well, and that’s great. The videos can be kind of short, maybe 10 minutes or so, but the podcast will go on at length, talking to the audio guys who have made sound for videos possible.It will also be music composers for movies as well. That’s really great. I found that great not only as inspiration, but to know what and how audio professionals for big budget films get inside their minds, how they’re thinking, and what their process looks like.It’s neat to see stuff about sound engineers for big movies and realize that we’re not so different.Dealing With a Broad Loudness Spectrum (Dynamics)Aaron: I have a nerdy question here. This is about normalizing and compression, I think. Aiya had asked, “I’m so torn about normalizing sound clips. If I’m working on a longer project in segments, would it be better to adjust my peaks manually for the sake of consistency? It’s for a video project.” I’m hearing that there are differences in video volumes. How do you deal with that? Do you do compression? Do you do automation for the different parts? How do you deal with dynamics?Ryan: It depends on the project. I’ll talk about how I would mix a sermon, because that’s very dynamic. Our pastor will go from whispering, holding his handheld mic close to his stomach, to screaming, holding the microphone, cupping the capsule. Power and respect to him, because it creates a certain atmosphere, which has a powerful effect. That’s what I’m dealing with on a weekly basis.That dynamic range is tremendous. Keep in mind, this is going to TV eventually. TV has very strict restrictions. It’s not so much on level, but on perceived level. There’s a difference between what you see meter and what you’re hearing. I can talk at length about that, too.Aaron: Could you give us a super short version? I’m kind of aware of that, but since I just mix in Logic, I’m not sure how to measure it. Is there a way to measure it in Logic? Do you know? Is there a plugin you use?Ryan: I use a plugin from Waves. It’s a loudness meter, and its just that. It has a lot of presets, so I’ll use the TV standard preset. I’ll use it for ATSE85, and I’ll use it for a dialogue bus. They’ve also got one for a master bus. The standard right there is your average level around -24 dB LUFS, so that’s full scale. If you have a classic meters, your peak would be zero, so that would average metering right around -10. At least for TV, I’ve got a hard limiter at -10 dB, to where nothing can go above that.The difference between levels on a meter vs. perceived loudness is the differences between what we hear and the actual energy.In our TV program, we’ll have the sermon, but we’ll also have a talking heads segments, which is dialogue and a music bed. We’ll also go into segments where they’ll go into worship from our live album, which had been mixed and mastered as an album. That thing is slammed. If you look at the wave form, it’s a sausage. If I’m setting all that by the meters alone and they’re all hitting -10, it may look right, but if I look at my loudness meter, that worship segment is going to be off the charts.There’s so much more content in there. There’s so much going on with all the different frequency ranges as opposed to a dialogue track, which is a narrow field in the frequency spectrum. That’s the gist of it. When it comes to my technique for controlling dynamics, for something like mixing a sermon, if I’m going down my plugin chain, the first thing I naturally have is a high pass filter. I’m rolling off those unnecessary lows that are hogging energy.The next thing I’ll do is use a compressor, and I’ll set the attack to right in the middle, so not fast or slow, and I’ll have the release time at fast. We don’t want to hear it pumping, letting go. That’s catching my peaks. It’s not doing a crazy amount, but it kind of is. That’s helping do a lot of the bulk compression. Before anything really hits the compressor, I will go through, and as I work my way through the mix, I will clip gain the wave form, so that, say, if he’s whispering somewhere, I might keep that, depending on how I have my compressor set.Then, if we go up to a part where he’s screaming and my wave form is huge, I will take that down and create those nodes, those dots in the wave form, and drag the actual clip volume down, that gain down. That way, it’s not going into the compressor at this high gain level. It’s hitting the compressor evenly as the rest of it would. That way, it’s not driving the compressor crazy. Then I’ll go through and do some EQ and DSing and whatnot. I might add some more compressors in there, just to grab some of those little things coming through. After that, it’s subtle, just smoothing it out.Aaron: It is a little bit of both. If she has access to an audio editing program—I don’t know what she’s using for editing. If you can put a compressor on the track, do that. It’s not exactly the same, but I did a YouTube video about how I process podcast vocals, and it’s very similar. For podcast vocals, I start with a Logic noise removal plugin.Ryan: I actually have my noise suppressor, and I’ll use that later on down in my signal chain. My way of thinking is that if I’ve got all this compression going on, the compression is narrowing that dynamic range, so it’s bringing up that noise floor. I tend to do my noise suppression after the bulk of that compression, because the noise floor is higher and it’s easier to work on a supressor. If that makes sense.Aaron: I’ve thought a lot about whether you should do the noise removal before or after you add a bunch of gain with a compressor or something, and I can’t think of a good reason that it matters. You can take out the noise before you add a bunch of gain, or you can add a bunch of gain and take out the noise afterwards. Which is better? I don’t know. Anyways, after the noise removal plugin, I put an EQ with a high pass filter, a peak compressor, an RMS or an average level compressor, and then a limiter.Ryan: Like I mentioned earlier, before I had my long-winded answer, it also depends on what it is you’re mixing—whether it’s music, or a podcast, or something for film.When it comes to dialogue for film, you want it to sound as natural as possible, but you also want to be able to hear if someone is whispering.When it comes to that, I’ll still use a compressor, but it will be very, very light. If there’s anything I need to do to meet loudness, that I will automate the volume on my dialogue bus. I’ll bring that up. That way, it sounds a little bit more natural, instead of solely relying on a compressor to do all the work for you.Aaron: That makes sense. For podcasts, if I notice that there’s a section where someone was talking much quieter, like if a guest backed away and talked like that for four or five minutes and then went back to the normal distance from the microphone, in Logic, I’ll turn that into its own clip. I make a cut on either side of the quiet part, and then, in Logic, you can double click on it and change gain by hitting Control G. Then you can add 3, 4, or 5 dB to it.That works out pretty well. If it’s every five seconds or I have to do it more than five or six times in an episode, I won’t do the clip gain changes, I’ll just use a compressor.Look at the overall audio file and see if there are long stretches where you can use automation to change the gain, or change the clip gain.Common Audio Mistakes Podcasters MakeRyan: You asked a question that I think would be good to talk about in regards to podcasting. You had asked, “What do you like about podcasts? What common mistakes do you hear people make?” Initially, I read this and thought, “I don’t know,” but I spent some time thinking about it. This is great, because it piggybacks off the loudness thing.A lot of the mistakes that I hear when it comes to podcasts in regards to audio is the levels and loudness aspect. I’ll listen to some podcasts that sound great, and I’ll put on another podcast where the whole thing is super quiet. Then they start laughing, and it’s really loud. There are some, like mine, where they have a music bed underneath the entire thing, and then sometimes the music bed is so quiet that you hardly know it’s there.You’re like, “What the heck is that noise in the background?” Sometimes, it’s the opposite. Sometimes, the music bed is way too loud. That’s a few of the things I’ve noticed. A lot of the fixes relate to what we just talked about. It helps to have knowledge of levels and perceived loudness.If you’re mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent.One of the biggest things I can recommend for anyone mixing anything, whether it’s music, movies, a podcast, is the importance of having a reference track.Aaron: Yeah, I don’t talk about that enough.Ryan: That is huge. Professional audio engineers who mix platinum records still do this. They will pull in a track from a different song that is mixed well and is mixed how they want theirs to sound, and they’ll have it muted in their session. When they want to have a reference to listen to or train their ear, they’ll un-mute it, and they’ll go, “Oh, okay.”I’m sure you’ve done the same thing as me, where you’ll be so involved in a mix, you’re in it, and you think it sounds great, and then maybe you go away. You go home, sleep, and maybe you come back, and you open it up and you go, “Woah! What was I thinking!” You can get so involved in it that the blinders go up. You get tunnel vision, and you’re not aware to some things.It’s good to have a reference track or get an outsider’s opinion on a mix.The main takeaway here is the reference track. That would help with anything, whether it’s the timbre, how you’re EQing, or the loudness. You pull in their track and it’s far louder than yours, and you automatically know that you need to do something about it.Aaron: That’s a great idea. You can kind of do this before or after. You go through and you edit your whole podcast, get everything set up the way you want, create an extra track, and then find a podcast that sounds really good—This American Life or pretty much anything by NPR—download an episode, drop it into your editing program, and play it, mute it, and see what the difference is. Maybe you need to add some gain with an adaptive limiter or with a compressor, or maybe you can tell that your track sounds way sharper or harsher.Are there are too many high frequencies or too much bass compared to your reference track? You can adjust those things. I’m so glad you mentioned that. I’ve never thought of that before, and that’s such a good idea.Ryan: It’s one of those things you don’t think of much, but once you do it, you’re like, “Oh my gosh!” It’s really eye opening and really helpful.You can find Ryan online at ryanmonette.com, and follow him on Twitter @RyanMonette.

He Yang:Olympic swimmer Fu Yuanhui has become an Internet sensation after a post-match poolside televised interview on August the 8th. You must have come across the millions of memes that features her animated facial expressions. This morning, she’s won the bronze in women’s 100-meter backstroke in Rio, the Olympics. Yes! Guys, tell me more about this lady first, cause she was virtually obscure. No one knew her name until two days ago.Ryan:Right, so Miss Fu, the 20-year old athlete, posted a time of 58.95 seconds in the women's 100-meter backstroke semifinal at the Rio Olympics. Fu told the CCTV reporter when she was informed of her result with surprise and delight. " Huh?! 58,95 ? ! I thought I did 59 seconds! Wow! Am I so fast? I'm pretty satisfied." And what a remark saying that so cute. She also said, you’ll have to do the translation for me here, He Yang, but in English "I have used enough power to destroy the world."He Yang:Wow, she is like the mighty God. Yeah, she is that to me right now and her original words were 我用了洪荒之力. Wow, that sounds really powerful.Fang Zhou:You know in today’s morning show, we actually spend a long time discussing the right and proper translation for 洪荒之力.He Yang:We’re just getting ready for roundtable. Slap in the face.Fang Zhou:You know 洪荒 literally means a reference to a really historical a period of time, you know, ancient period of time, long time ago.Ryan:Flood, correct.Fang Zhou:Yeah, that’s true. So my former colleague at CCTV, they have presented one translation says I have been utilizing prehistorical power.He Yang:Yeah. I think our translation just one-upped that one. Roundtable rules and rocks.Fang Zhou:But just wait and see there are many different translations from our listeners. In the morning show, which was really really fun, one says the chaos energy.Ryan:The chaos energy.Fang Zhou:Primeval energy, primeval force and power of Chinese gods.He Yang:Yeah, that’s colorful.Fang Zhou:Yeah, it’s true and I think I have used enough power to destroy the world. That sentence says it all. Roundtable rules, I agree.Ryan:It’s a very strong sentence. I’m right there with you guys. But what I really liked was when asked if she had high expectations for the finals, Fu answered with a bright smile “ Not at all, I am already very satisfied with my results”. And I love that, because you know what the point of playing sports isn’t just to win. It’s to have fun and be a good sport and sportsmanship makes sports fun for everybody who’s playing it. And you know apparently people agree with me, guys, because Fu’s followers on Weibo have surged from 56,000 to more than 2 million. So other people agree with me. She’s obviously in the spotlight right now. Maybe you guyscan talk more about why she’s got so many Weibo followers.He Yang:Yeah, why is she so popular? She totally stole the thunder from Wu Minxia, she’s an awesome athlete as well. She’s just collected her fifth and I think she probably will collect some more in the very near future. And there is Sunyang, who’s also an awesome athlete, gold medalist, just this morning, I think. He did it again. But people’s hearts go to this lovely girl that people don’t even care if she gets a medal or not, I think, after she’s entered the final. And that is so new and different. The public mood that I’m getting right now. And Ryan, I think you make a really good point that sports is not about to be wining what. That’s not what we used to think for sure.Ryan:You know, also I think this is a specific case that I think is really interesting. You know when we think of Olympic sports, we don’t think the actual individuals that are doing this or they’re playing a sport. Many times we think the countries, like, oh, it’s China verse, you know the US verse, England verse, Russia verse. All these different countries swimming in the pool. Yet, when we see them on the individual level and when we see that there’s more to themthan just, you know, that swimmer, but they have their personality. Once we get to see that, we can see that they’re just like us. We can relate to them and love them, just like we love our friends, just like we love our family. And so, you know, looking at this meme of this really awesome swimmer. She’s an awesome swimmer, but acting just like everyday person. Who can’t relate to that and who wouldn’t love it? That’s what I’m saying.Fang Zhou:Yeah, I totally agree with Ryan on this case. I think Fu’s image is one hundred percent against the stereotypical image of an athlete, especially in China. Think aboutit. If you are an athlete that represents your country at the Olympic games, you are interviewed by the national television network, it adds a lot of pressure and you must be serious. I mean that’s huge. You’re representing your country and you will be all of the places in your country on TV. I guess that’s what makes so much pressure on those athletes. And what I love Fu Yuanhui’s best is also that she acts just like normal 20-year old girl. And what I love the best of her comments is that “ I’m already very satisfied with this result”. She didn’t say if she had any expectations on the finals the next day. But with that line, I definitely know that she’s gonna give her best in the next day’s final. And that’s the best explanation of sportsmanship at Olympic games. You know, just give your best every time and just don’t think about the competetions, don’t think about the trash talks or just succeeding like you did last time with a better result. You just do it and give a lot you can. That’s what we enjoy the most on the pitch, in the pool.Ryan:Exactly. This is once in a lifetime thing, you are one of the few, the chosen, to compete for your country and games that unite us all, like what an honor. So everybody is a winner, in my opinion. And I think it’s also so cool she’s now known as the comedian of the swimming profession. But when asked why she got the bronze in the 100 meter backstroke. You know sayingthings like, “ Oh, because my arms are too short”. I think that’s funny and you know that proves she’s got a sense of humor. She didn’t take this lost personally. She just take it as you know like “ oh, I’m happy to be here and I’m gonna make a joke. And everybody likes people like that. That don’t take life so seriously, but can learn to enjoy it, even when you are not with on top.He Yang:That is so true, Ryan, and so many of us, Chinese people, we want that, we want that care-free spirit, we want that we are among the best inwhat we do and we can laugh at our wins and loses, but so rare is that actually done in real life, so I think when people see that this Olympic bronze’s winner now can do that in front of the camera and you can tell that she’s not acting, you know, it’s all natural. That is like a breath of fresh air and I remember throughout those years when I watching the Olympics, when a Chinese athlete managed to get the gold medal and the way they react in front of the camera always thought…..FangZhou:I did this for my country.He Yang:Ok, I did this for my country, thank my coaches, the party, my government and my country again and that’s pretty much it. I used to think they are like robots, they are not like everyday people. And then there is just tad of sadness that invades my heart, because I feel this is not a real person. Why are they reacting like that in front of the camera. There must be other reasons why they are acting this way and the more you think about that, (that greatenly ) saddens me as I grow older to understand this system a bit more. But here, look at Fu Yuanhui. Look at her and I think every generation needs our ownheroes. And in 2004, when Liu Xiang broke the world record with what he does best. I think that energized the nation and it fulfilled that nationalistic greedthat people needed at that time. And in 2008, when Beijing held the Olympic games, I think it was, maybe the highlight of modern China and history.Fang Zhou:Yeah, it was a collective presentation.He Yang:Exactly. And then I think people have had that peak time. Now, maybe it’s a good thing that we are becoming more in touch with our human side of things. It’s this girl that she’s giving all she can into a game. And she’s doing it with that bright smile. Well done to you, Fu Yuanhui. And I think you are the idol of this era.

He Yang:Fanfiction or 同人小说 is when someone takes either the story or characters of a certain piece of work, whether it is a novel, TV show, movie, and just creates their own story based on it. It is often inspired by fans who feel that the plot is incomplete or just want to see a happy ending between their favorite characters. Why is fanfiction so popular in China? Niu Honglin: Well, according to some writers that the reason they write fanfiction is purely from the love and a feeling of regret for the characters. Basically, people are starting to read or see some TV show, movie, et cetra and they feel like they want to see more, they want to know more about the beloved character. And that is sometimes when they step in and make their own plot here. And Jin Jiang Wen Xue Cheng is a popular fanfiction site for probably female audiences more likely. And it hosts a third Authors’ Forum on anniversary this year and hundreds of authors are coming from different parts of the nation to attend this meaningful event to meet and greet their fans. And those authors includes those that write fanfiction, maybe only fanfiction.Ryan:You know I get this, ok, I do, guys. Although I’m not, I don’t know.He Yang:Do you? Are you too cool us, Ryan? Niu Honglin and I He Yang, we’ve read these thingsRyan:Alright. Can I finish?He Yang:Sure, go ahead, sorry to intrudeRyan:Harry Potter, alright, I’m not following this whole Voldemort Harry Potter, Ithink that’s some weird stuff going on. But hey, if it floats your boat, I don’t judge. But one thing that always starts honestly should have happened and aroad, I would like to be seentaken is Harry Potter and Hermione, dude, I want to see them get together. I thought, even J.K. Rowling, I believe that she had commented after finishing these series that it was a mistake to have Harry and Ginny end up together. And actually she would rather head it the other way around with Harry and Hermione. So I can see how the allureof fanfiction could come into play here. But also I can see the problems with copyright, guys, because sometimes, this is somebody else’s intellectual property. It wouldn’t have come to fruition, if J.K. Rowling had it thought of the universe Harry Potter. So I think, A. if you make money off this, you need to at least pay some kind of royalty and have an agreement with that person, you created this universe or otherwise just offer for free. That’s my twocents.Niu Honglin:Yeah, there are some fanfictions that they use characters from other novel and they started to have their own story in the completely different time and different place and when the story is very popular,they started to make it, make it to change the name of the character and publish the story. I’m talking about 50 Shades of Grey here.Ryan:You mean 50 Shades of Gross.He Yang:Ok. Some of the stuffs is a little bit off limitsNiu Honglin:I’m not promoting or against anything, I’m just trying to say that 50 Shades of Grey is originally a fanfiction from the Twiliight series. So you can see that some of the fanfictions are actually what you have said they use the same universe, they’re using the same characters to develop different kind of story. But it is possible that they just, because their love for the characters are too huge that they just using the character to start another story.He Yang:Yeah, I can totally relate tothat character pairing is the technical phrase for it and it is the most essential part of fanfiction that gets all the fans, like I have said in Slam Dunk, Liu Chuanfeng has to be paired with Xian Daozhang.Niu Honglin:I can totally see that it’s justso hot.He Yang:Exactly. He does not belong to any girl.Niu Honglin:No, no, no, no.He Yang:So is that a kind of passion that I think fans get so much fun reading from another fan, that’s writingthis, answering to our desires.Ryan:I get vibe that this has a very big like desire and people really, girls seem to really like this for the pairing possibilities.He Yang:Don’t gender stereotypeRyan:Ok, fine. But I mean you just mentioned 50 Shades of Gray and Twilight. Ok. Fist of all, I will admit, I have seen Twilight, ok, with guy friends in a movie theater. Ok, I’m not proud of it, but I had to see whatall the rage was about. Ok, yes. But I think I only saw the first two, but I never seen 50 Shades of Gray. I know my mom and my sister love it and talk about it for hours, but at the same time I have heard what it’s about and it’s not for me, so I can’t, definitely can’t tell if the two are related, cause I don’t know them well enough. But if people are getting so much enjoyment out of it, is it such a bad thing? That’s my question.He Yang:It can’t be a bad thing.Ryan:It can’t be a bad thing. 50 Shades of Gross, come on, people love it.Niu Honglin:Ok, about the thing you have mentioned about, a copy issue everything. I’d like to say that it is actually a fact that most of the fanfiction writers don’t get paid or publish their works. They’re just doing this, sometimes from pure love. But if it got really popular, I do think there should be a standardized procedure that allows you to discuss with your original writer and talk about things, make arrangement, make deal out of somewhere to make sure you’re getting paid in a good way. Ryan:Yeah, I think if you are writing a good fanfiction and offering it for free. Eventually, you know you’ll get following and then wants you write an original content, maybe you could make money off of that. So I think it’s a good way to begin as an author.He Yang:Yeah and we have seen there some successful examples of fanfiction writers become real writers and understand there’s a lot of junk out there. But when it’s free, that’s what you get and also that is, I think the beauty of the Internet that anybody could technically, I mean publish online, but whether you be able to gain that huge group of followers and capitalized on that, it takes a lot more work and also get the legal issues sortedout before hand.

非常感谢热心听众【张惠云- Bibi】对本文稿的贡献！Heyang: If there is someone most likely to drop into your nightmares, it is your boss. Our bosses are very special to us - they know what drives us, how to hurt us, and most shamefully, where our bottom lines are. Today is their turn to be whipped by Round Table. Whish, OK didn’t do it right. But anyway this topic has been inspired by a post on WeChat public account on shameless and has so much fun reading it. Guys, have you encountered any of these bosses ever in your life?Ryan: Well, OK let’s talk about these bosses because I think the names are very awesome. But we are gonna do some censoring here on some of the names, you can check the same article if you so wish. But the first one, no problems, the emperor boss. Now imagine it, and the emperor, what is an emperor, dude? Here is people take care of them. He is in a position of power, he is a powerful man. Well yes the emperor boss is a very powerful man, he doesn’t want to...you know, get his own coffee, or he has an assistant to do a lot of work for. This kinds of boss that are really like the menial tasks he has someone do it for.Heyang: Yeah, ask someone to do it for him or her actually, could be an empress boss. And if it’s a woman in that position, could be equally as bad and demanding if not more.Luo Yu: But I think on most occasions these emperor bosses are not very demanding. You know, you just pour them a cup of tea, or get the parcels for them, or get their schedules done, things like that. They will not be bossing you around, form my perspective.Ryan: It is a way to win favor with the emperor. But at the same time too, as long as I think the tasks are menial, like please give me a cup of coffee, oh like can you lighten my cigarette. It’s kind of things like…dude you can do this you know. But I haven’t actually experienced any kind of emperor bosses, I don’t know about you guys. But there is one boss that I have experienced maybe you guys have also experienced it—the credit-owner boss. And Shameless describes this kind of boss, the boss is like come on guys, we are a team! Let’s do this! And then if the team fails, he’s like: well, my team failed, I don’t know what they did wrong uhm, you know, they jump out of the situation. And they include themselves when the good is good. They will be there and say oh I am a part of the team. But if the team messes up, they are immediately in the boss position and segregate themselves from it.Heyang: You actually been a victim to this.Ryan: Absolutely, people will always jump to greener pastures. Heyang: Oh that’s not good at all. And I’d even take it a step further and say some of these credit-owner bosses, it could be credit-owner professors as well, you know, if you’re a student. And sometimes, they take credit of your hard work, your fruit of labor, and don’t give you any recognization at all. And I think that’s the worst type. It’s like you work so hard, and you don’t exist. And they don’t even remember you sometimes. And you just feel…I just felt like I was a complete loser and was being used. Luo Yu: A lot of people have the same feeling of being used by other people, it happens a lot in every corner of the workplace around the world, I think, even happens in CRI.Heyang: Oh! Tell us more about that.Luo Yu: There are people who did the interviews, who had the story lines, who had conducted interviews by himself. And all of a sudden, there was a supervisor level person who asked the person to write his name first when they’re going to apply for award. This happens a lot.Heyang: Yes, it’s kind of practice in certain circles. And I just wonder I mean, in those kind of situations of course, it’s very easy to say that we are the victims to it. But there is the other side of the argument that sees this as sort of a path that everybody has to go on for a little while because that’s how you earn trust form the boss or your professor. And also gain more experiences and through the way you might get some exposure. And I even like to respond to the first boss type that Ryan talked about, the emperor boss. Sometimes, on the surface, it’s like you are doing a personal errand for your boss. Like sometimes, the boss asks someone as strong as Ryan to change the water filter. But it’s not because it’s a personal favor. It’s more like they trust you and they want you to do something. So I mean there are different angles to look at this. Ryan: Like moving forward on this, like being a good boss. I think a good boss should expect less people doing like catering to him, as he caters to his employees. Coz I feel like if you encourage your employees, you make them happy. They will be very productive, and as a boss, you will be rocking your job. So a good boss is an encouraging boss.Heyang: That’s true. What about the boss 2nd generation? Do you have anything to say about that, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: Well, boss 2nd generation. Usually, the female inferiors have a very good depiction about them, you know, they want to be hugged by theses boss 2nd generation. They think them to be very affluent and very powerful. But actually in reality on most occasions, they’re not that rich and sometimes their body shape is not that good as well. Heyang: It sounds like someone’s got personal vendetta towards this 2nd generation bosses. Yes, that could be…uh sometimes, people shouldn’t take the face value of things. And also what are some of the other bosses that you think, they are just not good?Ryan: Well there is the not nice lady boss. Yes I am censoring that name can be both man and woman. But someone who like kind of sleeps their way to the top. They use their assets to get their special job, which I don’t think is good. Heyang: Yeah well sometimes, I feel that there is just the prejudice against powerful hard-working and good-looking women. And there, sometimes, when she gets on top, then there seems to be that kind of discrimination towards her. That scandals and rumors could be made up.

This week, in honor of the new Fantastic Four hitting theaters, we make Ryan watch the unreleased Roger Corman-produced Fantastic Four from 1994. Ryan's Score: 1.5/10 Ryan's Synopsis: Kevin: "Was it so bad it was good?" Ryan: "It was so bad it was really bad." web: filmpulse.nettwitter: twitter.com/filmpulsenetfacebook: facebook.com/filmpulsepatreon: patreon.com/filmpulse outro music by: SJMellia 

This week Ryan watches Dogtooth, in honor of the new Giorgos Lanthimos film Alps coming out this week.Ryan's Score: 5/10 Ryan's Tag Line: Kevin: "This was nominated for an Academy Award." Ryan: "It should have been nominated for a f*ckin' asshole award." Purchase: Dogtooth [DVD] Dogtooth [Blu-ray]