Podcasts about joe thanks

In this episode, Brian is joined by Joe Carlucci, Founder and CEO of the Carlucci Hospitality Group. The Carlucci Hospitality is a concept development, management, and consulting company that primarily focuses on golf course clubhouses, hotels, and resorts. They also assist restaurant operators concept, structure deals, and create an operational path to success. Tune in to hear who Joe Thanks for helping him along the way.

Adam and Joe get together on stage at the Royal Festival Hall for some foolish waffle, including Chalamet/Bobbles chat, Made Up Jokes, Eggcorns, paranormal fun, a conceptually revolting restaurant trip, brand new Song Wars songs and a beautiful rendition of an Adam and Joe Show musical classic.WARNING! CONTAINS VERY STRONG LANGUAGERecorded live at the RFH on December 5th, 2024Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and conversation editing, and Becca Bryers for sound mixPodcast illustration by Helen GreenThanks to Kid Klava for his work on Adam's musical tribute to Joe Thanks to Christoph Bauschinger for live piano and his work on Joe's musical tribute to AdamPLEASE HELP IMPROVE THE LIVES OF PEOPLE SLEEPING ROUGH BY DONATING TO ST MUNGO'S AND DON'T FORGET 'MUSIC FOR ALL'!AND THEN PRE-ORDER 'I LOVE YOU, BYEEE' by Adam Buxton - out in May 2025Thanks podcats. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

1975 neigt sich die Ära der klassischen Western ihrem vorläufigen Ende entgegen, bevor das Genre in den folgenden Jahrzehnten wieder an Bedeutung gewinnt. Neben den USA prägte besonders Italien, unter der Leitung von Sergio Leone, eine neue Filmsprache für die “Wüsten-und-Revolver”-Epen. In eben diesem Jahr erschien Nobody ist der Größte, ein Western, der typisch für Hauptdarsteller Terence Hill einen locker-leichten Ton anschlägt. Hill spielt den schlitzohrigen Gauner Nobody (alias Joe Thanks), der zusammen mit zwei ebenso gerissenen Kumpanen immer wieder Gelegenheiten nutzt, um an ein paar Dollar zu kommen. Nun planen sie ihren bisher größten Raubzug und wollen einen hochrangigen Major um eine beträchtliche Geldsumme erleichtern. Neben zahlreichen Slapstick-Einlagen besticht dieser Heist-Film – insbesondere in der deutschen Fassung – durch markante Sprüche. Verantwortlich dafür ist Rainer Brandt, bekannt für seine humorvolle Synchronisation, die den deutschen Dialogen einen unverwechselbaren Witz verleiht. In dieser Episode unseres Filmmagazins besprechen wir, wie gut die Dad-Jokes heute noch funktionieren und ob Nobody ist der Größte ein unterschätztes Juwel des Italo-Westerns ist.

In this episode, Brian is joined by Joe Reardon, Chief Development Officer at Hotel Equities. A best-in-class owner, operator, and development firm, Hotel Equities manages a portfolio of 250+ hotels and resorts throughout the U.S. and Canada. Their hotel management portfolio consists of full-service, select-service, boutique, independent, and lifestyle hotels. Tune in to hear who Joe Thanks for helping him along the way.

Today on What's Right: Abysmal 6-3 SCOTUS decision on social media censorship The debate that Biden MUST win Death penalty vs. abortion Adam Kinzinger endorses BIDEN Another day, another violent murder (by illegals… thanks Joe) Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. Have personal injury questions? Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sam & Ash Injury Law⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get free answers 24/7. Connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightSam⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ FACEBOOK What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ INSTAGRAM What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ To request a transcript of this episode, email ⁠⁠marketing@samandashlaw.com.

Redwood is a state-of-the-art graphical interface that defines the look and feel of the new Oracle Cloud Redwood Applications.  In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald, take a closer look at the intent behind the design and development aspects of the new Redwood experience. They also explore Redwood page templates and components.  Developing Redwood Applications with Visual Builder: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/developing-redwood-applications-with-visual-builder/112791 Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week, we discussed how Visual Builder Studio can be used to extend Oracle Fusion Apps.  Lois: That's right, Niki. In today's episode, we will focus on Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps us create stunning, world-class enterprise applications and user experiences.  00:56 Nikita: Yeah, Redwood is the basis for all the new Oracle Cloud Applications being re-designed, developed, and delivered. To tell us more, we have Senior OCI Learning Solutions Architect and Principal Instructor Joe Greenwald, who's been working with Oracle software development tools since the early 90s and is responsible for OU's Visual Builder Studio and Redwood course content. Lois: Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:21 Joe: Hi Lois. Hi Niki. I am excited to join you on this episode because with the release of 24A Fusion applications, we are encouraging all our customers to adopt the new Redwood design system and components, and take advantage of the world-class look and feel of the new Redwood user experience. Redwood represents a new approach and direction for us at Oracle, and we're excited to have our customers benefit from it. 01:44 Nikita: Joe, you've been working with Oracle user interface development tools and frameworks for a long time. How and why is Redwood different? Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992, and the first Oracle user interface I experienced was Oracle Forms. And that was the character mode. I came from a background of Smalltalk and its amazing, pioneering graphical user interface (GUI) design capabilities. I worked at Apple and I developed my own GUIs for a few years on PCs and Macs. So, Character Mode Forms, what we used to call DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) screens, was a shock, to say the least. Since then, I've worked with almost every user interface and development platform Oracle has created: Character Mode Forms, GUI Forms, Power Objects, HyperCard on the Macintosh, that was pre-OS X by the way, Sedona, written in native C++ and ActiveX and OLE, which didn't make it to a product but appeared in other things later, ADF Faces, which uses Java to generate HTML pages, and APEX, which uses PL/SQL to generate HTML pages. And I've worked with and wrote training classes for Java Swing, an excellent GUI framework for event-driven desktop and enterprise applications, but it wasn't designed for the web. So, it's with pleasure that I introduce you to the Redwood design system, easily the best effort I've ever seen, from the look and feel of holistic user-goal-centered design philosophy and approach to the cutting-edge WYSIWYG design tools.  03:11 Lois: Joe, is Redwood just another set of styles, colors, and fonts, albeit very nice-looking ones? Joe: The Redwood platform is new for Oracle, and it represents a significant change, not just in the look and feel, colors, fonts, and styles, I mean that too, but it's also a fundamental change in how Oracle is creating, designing, and imagining user interfaces. As you may be aware, all Oracle Cloud Applications are being re-designed, re-engineered, and re-rebuilt from the ground up, with significant changes to both back-end and front-end architectures. The front end is being redesigned, re-developed, and re-created in pure HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript using Visual Builder Studio and its design-time browser-based Integrated Development Environment. The back end is being re-architected, re-designed, and implemented in a modern microservice architecture for Oracle Cloud using Kubernetes and other modern technologies that improve performance and work better in the cloud than our current legacy architecture. The new Oracle Cloud Applications platform uses Redwood for its design system—its tools, its patterns, its components, and page templates. Redwood is a richer and more productive platform to create solutions while still being cost-effective for Oracle. It encourages a transformation of the fundamental user experience, emphasizing identifying, meeting, and understanding end users' goals and how the applications are used.  04:34 Nikita: Joe, do you think Oracle's user interface has been improved with Redwood? In what ways has the UI changed? Joe: Yes, absolutely. Redwood has changed a lot of things. When I joined Oracle back in the '90s, there was effectively no user interface division or UI team. There was no user interface lab—and that was started in the mid-‘90s—and I was asked to give product usability feedback and participate in UI tests and experiments in those labs. I also helped test the products I was teaching at the time. I actually distinctly remember having to take a week to train users on Oracle's Designer CASE tool product just to prep the participants enough to perform usability testing. I can still hear the UI lab manager shaking her head and saying any product that requires a week of training to do usability testing has usability issues! And if you're like me and you've been around Oracle long enough, you know that Oracle's not always been known for its user interfaces and been known to release products that look like they were designed by two or more different companies. All that has changed with Redwood. With Redwood, there's a new internal design group that oversees the design choices of all development teams that develop products. This includes a design system review and an ongoing audit process to ensure that all the products being released, whether Fusion apps or something else, all look and feel similar so it looks like it's designed by a single company with a single thought in mind. Which it is. 06:00 Joe: There's a deeper, consistent commitment in identifying user needs, understanding how the applications are being used, and how they meet those user needs through things like telemetry: gathering metrics from the actual components and the Redwood system itself to see how the applications are being used, what's working well, and what isn't.  This telemetry is available to us here at Oracle, and we use it to fine tune the applications' usability and purpose.  06:25 Lois: That's really interesting, Joe. So, it's a fundamental change in the way we're doing things. What about the GUI components themselves? Are these more sophisticated than simple GUI components like buttons and text fields? Joe: The graphical components themselves are at a much higher level, more comprehensive, and work better together. And in Redwood, everything is a component. And I'm not just talking about things like input text fields and buttons, though it applies to these more fine-grained components as well. Leveraging Oracle's deep experience in building enterprise applications, we've incorporated that knowledge into creating page templates so that the structure and look and feel of the page is fixed based on our internal design standards. The developer has control over certain portions of it, but the overall look and feel of the page is controlled by Oracle. So there is consistency of look and feel within and across applications. These page templates come with predefined functionalities: headers, titles, properties, and variables to manipulate content and settings, slots for other components to hold like search fields, collections, contextual information, badges, and images, as well as primary and secondary actions, and variables for events and event handling through Visual Builder action chains, which handle the various actions and processing of the request on the page. And all these page templates and components are responsive, meaning they respond to the change in the size of the page and the orientation. So, when you move from a desktop to a handheld mobile device or a tablet, they respond appropriately and consistently to deliver a clean, easy-to-use interface and experience. 07:58 Nikita: You mentioned WYSIWYG design tools and their integration with Visual Builder Studio's integrated development environment. How does Redwood work with Visual Builder Studio? Joe: This is easily one of my most favorite aspects about Redwood and the integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer. The components and page templates are responsive at runtime as well as responsive at design time! In over 30 years of working with Oracle software development products, this is the first development system and integrated development environment I've seen Oracle produce where what you see is what you get at design time. Now, with products such as Designer and JDeveloper ADF Faces and even APEX—all those page-generation types of products—you have to generate the page, deploy it, and only then can you view the final page to see whether it meets the needs of your user interface. For example, with Designer, there were literally hundreds of configuration parameters that you could set to control how forms and reports looked when they were generated —down to how many buttons on a row or how many rows to a page, that sort of thing, all done in text mode. Then you'd generate and run the page to see what the result was and then go back and modify things until you got what you wanted. 09:05 Joe: I remember hearing the product managers for Oracle ADF Faces being asked…well, a customer asked, “What happens if I put this component here and this component here? What will the page look like?” and they'd say, “I don't know. Render the page and let's see.” That's just crazy talk. With Redwood and its integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer, what you see on the page at design time is literally what you get. And if I make the page narrower or I even convert it to a mobile display while in the Designer itself, I immediately see what the page looks like in that new mode. Everything just moves accordingly, at design time. For example, when changing to a mobile UI, everything stacks up nicely; the components adjust to the page size and change right there in the design environment. Again, I can't emphasize enough the simple luxury of being able to see exactly what the user is going to see on my page and having the ability to change the resolution, orientation, and screen size, and it changes right there immediately in my design environment. 10:01 Lois: I'm intrigued by the idea of page templates that are managed by Oracle but still leave room for the developer to customize aspects of the look and feel and functionality. How does that work? Joe: Well, the page templates themselves represent the typical pages you would most likely use in an enterprise application. Things like a welcome page, a search page, and edit and create pages, and a couple of different ways to display summary information, including foldout pages, though this is not an exhaustive list of course. Not only do they provide a logical and complete starting point for the layout of the page itself, but they also include built-in functionality. These templates include functionality for buttons, primary and secondary actions, and areas for holding contextual information, badges, avatars, and images. And this is all built right into the page, and all of them use variables to describe the contents for the various parts, so the contents can change programmatically as the variables' contents change, if necessary. 10:59 Do you have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us on the Idea Incubator. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started.  11:19 Nikita: Welcome back! So, Joe, let's say I'm a developer. How do I get started working with Redwood? Joe: One of the easiest ways to do it is to use Visual Builder Studio Designer and create a new visual application. If you're creating a standalone, bespoke custom application, you can choose a Redwood starter template, which will include all the Redwood components and page templates automatically. Or, if you're extending and customizing an Oracle Fusion application, Redwood is already included.  Either way, when you create a new page, you have a choice of different page templates—welcome page templates, edit pages, search pages, etc. —and all you have to do is choose a page that you want and begin configuring it. And actually if you make a mistake, it's easy to switch page templates. All the components, page templates, and so on have documentation right there inside Visual Builder Studio Designer, and we do recommend that you read through the documentation first to get an understanding of what the use case for that template is and how to use it. And some components are more granular, like a collection container which holds a collection of rows of a list or a table and provides capabilities like toolbars and other actions that are already built and defined. You decide what actions you want and then use predefined event listeners that are triggered when an event occurs in the application—like a button being clicked or a row being selected—which kicks off a series of actions to be performed. 12:38 Lois: That sounds easy enough if you know what you're doing. Joe, what are some of the more common pages and what are they used for?  Joe: Redwood page templates can be broken down into categories. There are overview templates like the welcome page template, which has a nice banner, colors, and illustrations that can be used for a welcoming page—like for entering a new application or a new logical section of the application. The dashboard landing page template displays key information values and their charts and graphs, which can come from Oracle Analytics, and automatically switches the display depending on which set of data is selected.  The detail templates include a general overview, which presents read-only information related to a single record or resource. The item overview gives you a small panel to view summary information (for example, information on a customer) and in the main section, you can view details like all the orders for that customer. And you can even navigate through a set of customers, clicking arrows for next-previous navigation. And that's all built in. There's no programming required. The fold-out page template folds out horizontally to show you individual panels with more detail that can be displayed about the subject being retrieved as well as overflow and drill-down areas. And there's a collection detail template that will display a list with additional details about the selected item (for example, an order and its order line items). 13:52 Joe: The smart search page does exactly what it says. It has a search component that you use to filter or search the data coming back from the REST data sources and then display the results in a list or a table. You define the filter yourself and apply it using different kinds of comparators, so you can look for strings that start with certain values or contain values, or numerical values that are equal to or less than, depending on what you're filtering for. And then there are the transactional templates, which are meant to make changes. This includes both the simple create and edit and advanced create and edit templates.  The simple create and edit page template edits a single record or creates a single record. And the advanced page template works well if you're working with master-detail, parent-child type relationships. Let's say you want to view the parent and create children for it or even create a parent and the children at the same time. And there's a Gantt chart page for project management–type tracking and a guided process page for multiple-step processes and there's a data management page template specifically for viewing and editing data collections like Excel spreadsheets. 14:50 Nikita: You mentioned that there's a design system behind all this. How is this used, and how does the customer benefit from it? Joe: Redwood comprises both a design system and a development system. The design system has a series of steps that we follow here at Oracle and can suggest that you, our customers and partners, can follow as well. This includes understanding the problem, articulating the vision for the page and the application (what it should do), identifying the proper Redwood page templates to use, adding detail and refining the design and then using a number of different mechanisms, including PowerPoint or Figma design tools to specify the design for development, and then monitor engagement in the real world. These are the steps that we follow here at Oracle. The Redwood development process starts with learning how to use Redwood components and templates using the documentation and other content from redwood.oracle.com and Visual Builder Studio. Then it's about understanding the design created by the design team, learning more about components and templates for your application, specifically the ones you're going to use, how they work, and how they work together. Then developing your application using Visual Builder Studio Designer, and finally improving and refining your application. Now, right now, as I mentioned, telemetry is available to us here at Oracle so we can get a sense of the feedback on the pages of how components are being used and where time is being spent, and we use that to tune the designs and components being used. That telemetry data may be available to customers in the future. Now, when you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can access the Redwood pattern book that shows you in detail all the different page templates that are available: smart search page, data grid, welcome page, dashboard landing page, and so on, and you can select these and read more about them as well as the actual design specifications that were used to build the pages—defining what they do and what they respond to. They provide a lot of detailed information about the templates and components, how they work and how they're intended to be used. 16:45 Lois: That's a lot of great resources available. But what if I don't have access to Visual Builder Studio Designer? Can I still see how Redwood looks and behaves? Joe: Well, if you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can log in and work with the Redwood reference application, which is a live application working with live data. It was created to show off the various page templates and components, their look and feel and functionality from the Redwood design and development systems. This is an order management application, so you can do things like view filtered pending orders, create new orders, manage orders, and view information about customers and inventory. It uses the different page templates to show you how the application can perform. 17:23 Nikita: I assume there are common aspects to how these page templates are designed, built, and intended to be used. Is that a good way to begin understanding how to work with them? Becoming familiar with their common properties and functionality? Joe: Absolutely! Good point! All pages have titles, and most have primary and secondary actions that can be triggered through a variety of GUI events, like clicking a button or a link or selecting something in a list or a table. The transactional page templates include validation groups that validate whether the data is correct before it is submitted, as well as a message dialog that can pop up if there are unsaved changes and someone tries to leave the page. All the pages can use variables to display information or set properties and can easily display specific contextual information about records that have been retrieved, like adding the Order Number or Customer Name and Number to the page title or section headers. 18:13 Lois: If I were a developer, I'd be really excited to get started! So, let's say I'm a developer. What's the best way to begin learning about Redwood, Joe? Joe: A great place to start learning about the Redwood design and development system is at the redwood.oracle.com page I mentioned. We have many different pages that describe the philosophy and fundamental basis for Redwood, the ideas and intent behind it, and how we're using it here at Oracle. It also has a list of all the different page templates and components you can use and a link to the Redwood reference application where you can sign in and try it yourself. In addition, we at Oracle University offer a course called Design and Develop Redwood Applications, and in there, we have both lecture content as well as hands-on practices where you build a lightweight version of the Redwood reference application using data from the Fusion apps application, as well as the pages that I talked about: the welcome page, detail pages, transactional pages, and the dashboard landing page.  And you'll see how those pages are designed and constructed while building them yourself.  It's very important though to take one of the free Visual Builder Developer courses first: either Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and/or Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio before you try to work through the practices in the Redwood course because it uses a lot of Visual Builder Designer technology.  You'll get a lot more out of the Redwood practices if you understand the basics of Visual Builder Studio first. The Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio course is probably a better place to start unless you know for a fact you will be focusing on extending Oracle Fusion Applications using Visual Builder Studio. Now, a lot of the content is the same between the two courses as they share much of the same technology and architectures. 19:53 Lois: Ok, so Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio…all on mylearn.oracle.com and all free for anyone who wants to take them, right? Joe: Yes, exactly. And the free Redwood learning path leads to an Associate certification. While our courses are a great place to start in preparing for your certification exam, they are not, of course, by themselves sufficient to pass and you will want to study and be familiar with the redwood.oracle.com content as well. The learning path is free, but you do have to pay for the certification exam. 20:29 Nikita: Thanks for those tips, Joe, and we appreciate you joining us today. Joe: Thanks for having me! Lois: Join us next week when we'll discuss how model-based development is still alive and well today. Until next time, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham, signing off! 20:45 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

The next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications is being built using Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit. However, many of the terms associated with these tools can be confusing. In this episode, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham are joined by Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald. Together, they take you through the different terminologies, how they relate to each other, and how they can be used to deliver the new Oracle Fusion Applications as well as stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/ Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this  series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular  Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Today, we're starting a new season on building the next generation of Oracle Cloud Apps with Visual Builder Studio. 00:45 Lois: And I'm so excited that we have someone really special to take us through the next few episodes. Joe Greenwald is joining us. Joe is a Senior Principal OCI Instructor with Oracle University. He joined Oracle in 1992 with an extensive background in CASE tools. Since then, he has used and taught all of Oracle's software development tools, including Oracle Forms, APEX, JDeveloper ADF, as well as all the Fusion Middleware courses. Currently, Joe is responsible for the Visual Builder Studio and Redwood development courses, including extending Fusion Applications with Visual Builder. 01:22 Nikita: In today's episode, we're going to ask Joe about Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit, also known as JET. Together, they form the basis of the technology for the next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications, as well as many other Oracle applications, including most Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) interfaces.  Lois: We'll look at the different terminologies and technologies, how they relate to each other, and how they deliver the new Oracle Fusion applications and stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:57 Joe: Hi Lois! Hi Niki! I'm glad to be here. Nikita: Joe, I'm somewhat thrown by the terminology around Visual Builder, Visual Studio, and JET. Can you help streamline that for us?  Lois: Yeah, things that are named the same sometimes refer to different things, and sometimes things with a different name refer to the same thing.  02:15 Joe: Yeah, I know where you're coming from. So, let's start with Visual Builder Studio. It's abbreviated as VBS and can go by a number of different names. Some of the most well-known ones are Visual Builder Studio, VBS, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Stand-Alone, and Visual Builder Cloud Service. Clearly, this can be very confusing. For the purposes of these episodes as well as the training courses I create, I use certain definitions.  02:39 Lois: Can you take us through those? Joe: Absolutely, Lois. Visual Builder Studio refers to a product that comes free with an OCI account and allows you to manage your project-related assets. This includes the project itself, which is a container for all of its assets. You can assign teams to your projects, as well as secure the project and declare roles for the different team members. You manage GIT repositories with full graphical and command-line GIT support, define package, build, and deploy jobs, and create and run continuous integration/continuous deployment graphical and code-managed pipelines for your applications. These can be visual applications, created using the Visual Builder Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, or non-visual apps, such as Java microservices, docker builds, NPM apps, and things like that. And you can define environments, which determine where your build jobs can be deployed. You can also define issues, which allow you to identify, track, and manage things like bugs, defects, and enhancements. And these can be tracked in code review merge requests and build jobs, and be mapped to agile sprints and scrum boards. There's also support for wikis for team collaboration, code snippets, and the management of the repository and the project itself. So, VBS supports code reviews before code is merged into GIT branches for package, build, and deploy jobs using merge requests.  03:57 Nikita: OK, what exactly do you mean by that? Joe: Great. So, for example, you could have developers working in one GIT branch and when they're done, they would push their private code changes into that remote branch. Then, they'd submit a merge request and their changes would be reviewed.  Once the changes are approved, their code branch is merged into the main branch and then automatically runs a CI/CD package (continuous integration/continuous deployment) package, build, and deploy job on the code. Also, the CI/CD package, build, and deploy jobs can run against any branches, not just the main branch. So Visual Builder Studio is intended for managing the project and all of its assets. 04:37 Lois: So Joe, what are the different tools used in developing web applications? Joe: Well, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Studio Designer, Visual Builder Designer, Visual Builder Design-Time, Visual Builder Cloud Service, Visual Builder Stand-Alone all kind of get lumped together. You can kinda see why. What I'm referring to here are the tools that we use to build a visual web application composed of HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for metadata. I call this Visual Builder Designer. This is an Integrated Development Environment, it's the “IDE” which runs in your browser. You use a combination of drag and drop, setting properties, and writing and modifying custom and generated code to develop your web applications. You work within a workspace, which is your own private copy of a remote Git branch. When you're ready to start development work, you open an existing workspace or create a new one based on a clone of the remote branch you want to work on. Typically, a new branch would be created for the development work or you would join an existing branch. 05:35 Nikita: What's a workspace, Joe? Is it like my personal laptop and drive?  Joe: A workspace is your own private code area that stores any changes you make on the Oracle servers, so your code changes are never lost—even when working in a browser-based, network-based tool. A good analogy is, say I was working at home on my own machine. And I would make a copy of a remote GIT branch and then copy that code down to my local machine, make my code changes, do my testing, etc. and then commit my work—create a logical save point periodically—and then when I'm ready, I'd push that code up into the remote branch so it can be reviewed and merged with the main branch. My local machine is my workspace. However, since this code is hosted up by Oracle on our servers, and the code and the IDE are all running in your browser, the workspace is a simulation of a local work area on your own computer. So, the workspace is a hosted allocation of resources for you that's private. Other people can't see what's going on in your workspace. Your workspace has a clone of the remote branch that you're working with and the changes you make are isolated to your cloned code in your workspace. 06:38 Lois: Ok… the code is actually hosted on the server, so each time you make a change in the browser, the change is written back to the server? Is it possible that you might lose your edits if there's a networking interruption? Joe: I want to emphasize that while I started out not personally being a fan of web-based integrated development environments, I have been using these tools for over three years and in all that time, while I have lost a connection at times—networks are still subject to interruptions—I've never lost any changes that I've made. Ever. 07:08 Nikita: Is there a way to save where you are in your work so that you could go back to it later if you need to? Joe: Yes, Niki, you're asking about commits and savepoints, like in a Git repository or a Git branch. When you reach a logical stopping or development point in your work, you would create a commit or a savepoint. And when you're ready, you would push that committed code in your workspace up to the remote branch where it can be reviewed and then eventually merged, usually with the main Git branch, and then continuous integration/continuous package and deployment build jobs are run. Now, I'm only giving you a high-level overview, but we cover all this and much more in detail with hands-on practices in our Visual Builder developer courses. Right now, I'm just trying to give you a sense of how these different tools are used. 07:49 Lois: Yes, that makes sense, Joe. It's a lot to cover in a short amount of time. Now, we've discussed the Visual Builder Designer IDE and workspace. But can you tell us more about Visual Builder Cloud Service and stand-alone environments? What are they used for? What features do they provide? Are they the same or different things? Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service or Visual Builder Stand-Alone, as it's sometimes called, is a service that Oracle hosts on its servers. It provides hosting for the deployed web application source code as well as database tables for business objects that we build and maintain to store your customer data. This data can come from XLS or CSV files, or even your own Oracle database customer table data.  A custom REST proxy makes calls to external third-party REST services on your behalf and supports several popular authentication mechanisms. There is also integration with the Identity Cloud Service (IDCS) to manage users and their access to your web apps. 08:47 Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service is a for-fee product. You pay licensing fees for how much you use because it's a hosted service. Visual Builder Studio, the project asset management aspect I discussed earlier, is free with a standard OCI license. Now, keep in mind these are separate from something like Visual Builder Design Time and the service that's running in Fusion application environments. What I'm talking about now is creating standalone, bespoke, custom visual applications. These are applications that are built using industry-standard HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON for metadata and are hosted on the Oracle servers. 09:27 Are you looking for practical use cases to help you plan and apply configurations that solve real-world challenges?  With the new Applied Learning courses for Cloud Applications, you'll be able to practically apply the concepts learned in our implementation courses and work through case studies featuring key decisions and configurations encountered during a typical Oracle Cloud Applications implementation. Applied learning scenarios are currently available for General Ledger, Payables, Receivables, Accounting Hub, Global Human Resources, Talent Management, Inventory, and Procurement, with many more to come!  Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:09 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, you said Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone is a for-fee service. Is there a way I can learn about using Visual Builder Designer to build bespoke visual applications without a fee? Joe: Yes. Actually, we've added an option where you can run the Visual Builder Designer and learn how to create web apps without using the app hosting or the business object database that stores your customer data or the REST proxy for authentication or the Identity Cloud Service. So you don't get those features, but you can still learn the fundamentals of developing with Visual Builder Designer. You can call third-party APIs, you can download the source, and run it locally, for example, in a Tomcat server. This is a great and free way to learn how to develop with the Visual Builder Designer. 10:52 Lois: Joe, I want to know more about the kinds of apps you can build in VB Designer and the capabilities that VB Cloud Service provides. Joe: Visual Builder Designer allows you to build custom, bespoke web applications made of interactive webpages; flows of pages for navigation; events that respond when things happen in the app, for example, GUI events like a button is clicked or values are entered into a text field; variables to store state and the ability to make REST calls, all from your browser. These applications have full access to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs, given that you have the right security permissions and credentials of course. They can access your customer business data as business objects in our internally hosted database tables or your own customer database tables. They can access third-party APIs, and all these different data sources can appear in the same visual application, on the same page, at the same time. They use the identity cloud service to identify which users can log in and authenticate against the application. And they all use the new Redwood graphical user interface components and page templates, so they have the same look and feel of all Oracle applications. 11:59 Nikita: But what if you're building or extending Oracle Fusion Applications? Don't things change a little bit? Joe: Good point, Niki. Yes. While you still work within Visual Builder Studio, that doesn't change, VBS maintains your project and all your project-related assets, that is still the same. However, in this case, there is no separate hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone instance. In this case, Visual Builder is hosted inside of Fusion apps itself as part of the installation. I won't go into the details of how the architecture works, but the Visual Builder instance that you're running your code against is part of Fusion applications and is included in the architecture as well as the billing. All your code changes are maintained and stored within a single container called an extension. And this extension is a Git repository that is created for you, or you can create it yourself, depending on how you choose to work within Visual Builder Studio. You create an extension to hold the source code changes that provide a customization or configuration. This means making a change to an existing page or a set of pages or even adding new pages and flows to your Oracle Fusion Applications. You use Visual Builder Studio and Visual Builder Designer in a similar way as to how you would use them for bespoke stand-alone visual applications.  13:10 Lois: I'm trying to envision how this workflow is used. How is it different from bespoke VB app development? Or is it different at all? Joe: So, recall that the Visual Builder Designer is effectively the Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, where you make your code changes by working with both the raw HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code, if need be, or the Page Designer for drag and drop, and setting properties and then Live mode to test your work. You use a version of VB Designer to view and modify your customizations, and the code is stored in a Git repository called an extension. So, in that sense, the work of developing pages and flows and such is the same.  You still start by creating or, more typically, joining a project and then either create a new extension from scratch or base it on an existing application, or go directly to the page that you want to edit and, on that page, select from your profile menu to edit in Visual Builder Studio. Now, this is a different lifecycle path from bespoke visual applications. With them, you're not extending an app or modifying individual pages in the same way. 14:11 Joe: You get a choice of which project you want to add your extension to when you're working with Fusion apps and potentially which repository to store your customizations, unless one already exists and then it's assigned automatically to hold your code changes. So you make your changes and edits to the portions of the application that have been opened for extensibility by the development team. This is another difference. Once you make your code changes, the workflow is pretty much the same as for a bespoke visual application: do your development work, commit your changes, push your changes to the remote branch. And then typically, your code is reviewed and if the code passes and is approved, it's merged with the main branch. Then, the package and deploy jobs run to deploy the main code to the production environment or whatever environment you're targeting. And once the package and deploy jobs complete, the code base is updated and users who log in see the changes that you've made. 15:00 Nikita: You mentioned creating apps that combine data from Fusion cloud, applications, customer data, and third-party APIs into one page. Why is it necessary? Why can't you just do all that in one Fusion Applications extension? Joe: When you create extensions, you are working within the Oracle Fusion Applications ecosystem, that's what they actually call it, which includes a defined a set of users who have been predefined and are, therefore, known to Fusion Applications. So, if you're a user and you're not part of that Fusion Apps ecosystem, you can't access the pages. Period. That's how Fusion Apps works to maintain its security and integrity. Secondly, you're working pretty much solely with the Fusion Applications APIs data sources coming directly from Fusion Applications, which are also available to you when you're creating bespoke visual apps. When you're working with Fusion Applications in Visual Builder, you don't have access to these business objects that give you access to your own customer database data through Visual Builder-generated REST APIs. Business objects are available only to bespoke visual applications in the hosted VB Cloud Service instance.  So, your data sources are restricted to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs and some third-party APIs that work within a narrow set of authentication mechanisms currently, although there are plans to expand this in the future. A mashup app that allows you now to access all these data sources while creating apps that leverage the Redwood Component System, so they look and work like Fusion Apps. They're a highly popular option for our partners and customers. 16:25 Lois: So, to review, we have two different approaches. You can create a visual application using the for-fee, hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service/Stand-Alone or the one that comes with Oracle Integration Cloud, or you can use the extension architecture for Fusion applications, where you use the designer and create your extensions, and the code is delivered and deployed to Fusion applications code.  You haven't talked about JET yet though, Joe. What is that? Joe: So, JET is an abbreviation. It stands for Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit and JET is the underlying technology that makes Visual Builder, visual applications, and Visual Builder Extensions for Fusion Applications possible. Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit provides a module-based, open-source toolkit that leverages modern JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS3, and HTML5 to deliver web applications. It's targeted at JavaScript developers working on client-side applications. It is not for backend development.  It's a collection of popular, powerful JavaScript libraries and a set of Oracle-contributed JavaScript libraries that make it very simple, easy, and efficient to build front-end applications that can consume and interact with Oracle products and services, especially Oracle Cloud services, but of course it can work with any type of third-party API. 17:42 Nikita: How are JET applications architected, Joe, and how does that relate to Visual Builder pages and flows? Joe: The architecture of JET applications is what's called a single page architecture. We've all seen these. These are where you have a single web page—think of your index page that provides the header and footer for your web page—and then the middle portion or the middle content of the page, represented by modules, allow you to navigate from one page or module to another. It also provides the data mapping so that the data elements in the variables and the state of the application, as well as the graphical user interface elements that provide the fields and functionality for the interface for the application, these are all maintained on the client side. If you're working in pure JET, then you work with these modules at the raw JavaScript code level. And there are a lot of JavaScript developers who want to work like this and create their custom applications from the code up, so to speak. However, it also provides the basis for Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion Apps visual extensions in Visual Builder. 18:38 Lois: How does JET support VB Apps? You didn't talk much about having to write a bunch of JavaScript and HTML5 so I got the impression that this is all done for you by VB Designer? Joe: Visual Builder applications are composed of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code that is usually generated by the developer when she drags and drops components on to the page designer canvas or sets properties or creates action chains to respond to events. But there's also a lot of JavaScript object notation (JSON) metadata created at the time that describes the pages, the flows, the navigation, the REST services, the variables, their data types, and other assets needed for the app to function. This JSON metadata is translated at runtime using a large JavaScript extension toolkit library called the Visual Builder Runtime that runs in the browser and real time translates the metadata and other assets in the Visual Builder source code into JET code and assets, which are actually executed at runtime. And it's very quick, very fast, very efficient, and provides a layer of abstraction between the raw JET code and the Visual Builder architecture of pages, flows, action chains for executing code and events to handle things that occur in the user interface, including saving the state in variables that are mapped to GUI components. For example, if you have an Input text component, you need to have a variable to store the value that was entered into that Input text component between page refreshes. The data can move from the Input text component to the variable, and from the variable to that Input text component if it's changed programmatically, for example. So, JET manages binding these data values to variables and the UI components on the page. So, a change to a variable value or a change to the contents of the component causes the others to change automatically. Now, this is only a small part of what JET and the frameworks and libraries it uses do for the applications.  JET also provides more complex GUI components like lists and tables, and selection lists, and check boxes, and all the sorts of things you would expect in a modern GUI application. 20:34 Nikita: You mentioned a layer of abstraction between Visual Builder Studio Designer and JET. What's the benefit of working in Visual Builder Designer versus JET itself? Joe: The benefit of Visual Builder is that you work at a higher level of abstraction than having to get down into the more detailed levels of deep JavaScript code, working with modules, data mappings, HTML code, single page architecture navigation, and the related functionalities. You can work at a higher level, a graphical level, where you can drag and drop things onto a design canvas and set properties. The VB architecture insulates you from the more technical bits of JET. Now, this frees the developer to concentrate more on application and page design, implementing logic and business rules, and creating a pleasing workflow and look and feel for the user. This keeps them from having to get caught up in the details of getting this working at the code level.  Now if needed, you can write custom JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3 code, though much less than in a JET app, and all that is part of the VB application source, which becomes part of the code used by JET to execute the application itself. And yet it all works seamlessly together. 21:35 Lois: Joe, I know we have courses in JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. But does a developer getting ready to work in Visual Builder Designer have to go take those courses first or can they start working in VB Designer right away? Joe: Yeah, that question does often comes up: Do I need to learn JET to work with Visual Builder? No, you don't. That's all taken care for you in the products themselves. I don't really think it helps that much to learn JET if you are going to be a VB developer. In some ways, it could even be a bit distracting since some of things you learn to do in JET, you would have to unlearn or not do so much because of what VB does it for you. The things you would have to do manually in code in JET are done for you. This is why we call VB a low code development tool.  I mean, you certainly can if you want to, but I would spend more time learning about the different GUI components, page templates, the Visual Builder architecture — events, action chains, and the data provider variables and types. Now, I know JET myself. I started with that before learning Visual Builder, but I use very little of my JET knowledge as a VB developer. Visual Builder Designer provides a nice, abstracted, clean layer of modern visual development on top of JET, while leveraging the power and flexibility of JET and keeping the lower-level details out of my way. 22:46 Nikita: Joe, where can I go to get started with Visual Builder? Joe: Well, for more information, I recommend you take a look at our Develop Fusion Applications course if you're working with Fusion Applications and Visual Builder Studio. The other course is Develop Visual Applications with Visual Builder Studio and that's if you're creating stand-alone bespoke applications. Both these courses are free. We also have a comprehensive course that covers JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3, and while it's not required that you take that to be successful, it can be helpful down the road. I would say that some basic knowledge of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript will certainly support you and serve you well when working with Visual Builder. You learn more as you go along and you find that you need to create more sophisticated applications. I would also mention that a lot of the look and feel of the applications in Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion apps extensions and customizations come through JET components, JET styles, and JET variables, and CSS variables, so that's something that you would want to pursue at some point. There's a JET cookbook out there. You can search for Oracle JET and look for the JET cookbook and that's a good introduction to all of that. 23:47 Lois: Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really looking forward to having you back next week to discuss extending Oracle Fusion Applications with Visual Builder Studio. Joe: Thanks for having me. Nikita: And if you want to learn about some of the courses Joe mentioned, visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. Until next time, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 24:09 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

The Iowa Legislature has begun the 2024 session and we sat down with our friend Joe Murphy the President of the Iowa Business Council to talk about this groups legislative priorities. As in past years tax rates remain at the top of the list but we were surprised at some of the other issues that the largest corporations in the state see as essential. It's a good conversation. Also if you want to reach us on social media and if you're on Threads you can find us @Insight_On_Business. And you can hook up with us all day on Twitter or "X" @IOB_NewsHour and on Instagram. Facebook? Sure were there too. Here's Joe:  Thanks for listening! The award winning Insight on Business the News Hour with Michael Libbie is the only weekday business news podcast in the Midwest. The national, regional and some local business news along with long-form business interviews can be heard Monday - Friday. You can subscribe on  PlayerFM, Podbean, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio. And you can catch The Business News Hour Week in Review each Sunday Noon on News/Talk 1540 KXEL. The Business News Hour is a production of Insight Advertising, Marketing & Communications. You can follow us on Twitter @IoB_NewsHour...and on Threads @Insight_On_Business.

In this episode, Brian is joined by award winning author Joseph LeValley. After a long and successful career in the Healthcare sector, Joe has his 6th book featuring Tony Harrington coming out later this year, and he has firmly cemented his place in the crime fiction genre. Tune in to see who Joe Thanks for helping him along the way.

We find out about National Snow Week, train travel to Austria and driving in an EV to Val d'Isère. Iain was joined live by Babsi Lapwood from the Mountain Trade Network and Stephen Morgan from Raccoon Events, organisers of the National Snow Week and ‘down the line' by Hannah Zajic from the Austrian Tourist Board and Simon McIntyre from Iglu Ski.  SHOW NOTES Babsi skied in Banff, Sunshine Village and Panorama in Canada (1:30) The Ski Podcast is sponsored by Les 3 Vallées - the largest ski area in the world Skiing continues in Val Thorens until La Grand Derniere on 08 May (05:00) Alex Irwin from 150 Days of Winter reported from Val Thorens (5:30) The Tour de France comes to Les 3 Vallées in July Dan Keeley from Snowcamp is running from the UK to Rome to raise funds for CALM (7:00) Find out about Dan's run at hometorome.com (7:30) The Ski Podcast was shortlisted in the 'Wilderness' category at the Sports Podcast Awards (8:00) Doug Newman from Ski Weekend interviewed Eddie ‘The Eagle' Edwards (8:30) LISTEX Luxury is a B2B event in London in July National Snow Week is a consumer event taking place this October (11:15) Steve was last on the show when Iain spoke to him at the NEC in Episode 158 (13:00) The last London Ski Show was held at Battersea Evolution in 2019. We reported from there in Episode 42 (14:30) The Ski Podcast did offer to become the new sponsors of the O2-Excel cable car (16:45) The London Snow Show will take place at the Excel centre on 21/22 October (18:00) Listen to Iain's interview with Mia Brookes in Episode 158 (19:30) The 13th edition of annual trade event LISTEX will also take place at Excel (24:45) You can get free tickets to National Snow Week by using the code 'SKIPODCAST' at https://nationalsnowweek.com (26:30) Iain will be at both the London and Bham Shows presenting ‘The Ski Podcast Live' Hannah Zajic is from the Austrian National Tourist Office in London (27:00) Yvonne Rosentstatter from Salzburgerland joined us in Episode 90 (27:45) OBB's Nightjet service connects 25 European cities (28:00) Accessible resorts from the Innsbruck train include Kuhtai & Solden, as well as St Johann and Mayrhofen with an earlier exit at Worgl (31:00) Fares start at €49 with a couchette in 6-berth, €59 with a couchette in 4-berth, €89 with a bed in a 2-bed sleeper or €129 with a single-bed sleeper all to yourself (34:00) Iain has driven to the Alps in an EV several times (39:00) Simon McIntyre from Iglu Ski travelled to Val d'Isère in a Mercedes with a ‘real range' of 220-230 miles Find out more about low-carbon travel options at Ski Flight Free (48:00) Feedback I enjoy all feedback about the show, I like to know what you think, ideas for features so please contact on social @theskipodcast or by email theskipodcast@gmail.com Allen Foster: "Very much enjoy your podcast"  Lynsey: "Episode 173 was a great podcast once again" Joe: "Thanks very much for the interesting feature on action cameras" There are over 170 episodes to catch up with and 117 were listened to in the last week. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And if you enjoy the pod, you can Buy Me A Coffee. You can follow me @skipedia and the podcast @theskipodcast

In spite of the new START accord, Biden still plans to overshare about our nuclear information. Russia, big shock, will provide nothing in return. Because THAT's a logical deal, Joe…   Thanks for joining me for this episode! I'm a Houston- based attorney, run an HR Consulting company called Claremont Management Group, and am a tenured professor at the University of St. Thomas. I've also written several non-fiction political commentary books: Bad Deal for America (2022) explores the Vegas-style corruption running rampant in Washington DC, while The Decline of America: 100 Years of Leadership Failures (2018) analyzes – and grades – the leadership qualities of the past 100 years of U.S. presidents. You can find my books on Amazon, and me on social media (Twitter @DSchein1, LinkedIn @DavidSchein, and Facebook, Instagram, & YouTube @AuthorDavidSchein). I'd love to hear from you!   As always, the opinions expressed in this podcast are mine and my guests' and not the opinions of my university, my company, or the businesses with which I am connected.

Joe Soltis, CEO, ChoiceLocal (Cleveland, OH)   Joe Soltis is CEO at ChoiceLocal, which Joe describes as “the top performing franchise growth engine” with a “money back guarantee.” The agency offers a wide scope of services for franchisors and franchisees of over 50 brands, enabling them to provide “Fortune 500 level customer service, results, strategy, and ROI on the franchisee level” for a “small and medium size business price.”  Large clients might be parent companies of franchise systems, franchisors owning 20 or more franchise systems where each system may have from 20 to 200 franchisees – and up to as many as 6,000 internal franchise units. Small franchise systems may have 10 units. For these smaller clients, the agency facilitates franchise development, consumer, new customer, location, company, and digital talent recruitment marketing. Joe says hiring is a challenge, especially in the franchise space. The agency needs to understand its client's hiring needs, the kind of candidates it desires, and the historical hire rates to know the number of applicants to target . . . then reverse engineer the hire rate/cost per quality candidate by channel and implement the most effective marketing strategy to ensure future growth. Joe says they use the same channels as they do for consumer marketing (in a different order), plus some that are recruitment specific. Joe notes that franchise operations need to beware . . . a lot of agencies will lock clients into proprietary technology solutions . . . that don't fit. ChoiceLocal strives to find the right tools for each client to build a “win-win” ecosystem where franchisor, franchisee, and the agency all win. He says it's important that the tool providers are companies sensitive to client needs, adaptable to a changing market, and willing to invest in “making sure that you can use their tool to provide the best in the world customer service to your end customers.” Joe started his career working his way up for 10 years in a company that grew to serve Fortune 500 companies. At a time of great personal loss, he changed the direction of his life. In his words, I always said I wanted to be successful so that I could help people, and that day it changed to “I don't want to just build something; I want to help people and I want to do it now. I don't want to be successful so that I can help people later. I want to do it now.” Joe started ChoiceLocal with the mission “to help others” – the agency's franchisor and franchisee partners, agency teammates (to make their dreams and aspirations reality), and people in the community.  Joe structured the agency with the goal of having employees work their 40-hours, then “unplug and leave work at work.” With a teammate Net Promoter Score in the 70s (far exceeding the “good” score, which is in the 30s), the agency has been a Top Workplace in Northeast Ohio for the past five years. When Covid struck, the agency created a ChoiceLocal Economic Stimulus Package to help its customers “grow through the downturn,” an initiative that Joe estimates saved 30 franchisees from going out of business.  Giving back to the community is “baked into” the agency's DNA, with 10% of profits dedicated to helping “kids in need.” Joe says the agency's “big hairy audacious goal is to help 10,000 kids a year.” As of this interview, the agency had already helped 6,000 kids in 2022 through such things as meal programs, partnering with Habitat for Humanity to provide a home for an in-need family, and through team members' personal volunteer work in the community. Joe says the next thing after achieving this goal would be to “raise the goal.” Recently, the agency spun off a dental franchise, Broadview Dental Group, which Joe targets to be “the largest provider of dental care in the United States within 10 years.” Expectations are that dentists following this franchise system “can have 4.5 times the profit of a typical dental practice and only have to work three days a week to do it.” In this franchise system, a dentist maintains 100% of the business's equity and, on retirement, can sell the franchise. Joe can be reached on his agency's website at choicelocal.com, by following ChoiceLocal on social media channels @ChoiceLocal, by following Joe on Twitter @helpothersjoe, or by connecting with him on LinkedIn.  ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Joe Soltis, CEO at ChoiceLocal based in Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome to the podcast, Joe. JOE: Rob, great to be with you today. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about ChoiceLocal? What is the firm's specialty? What is your superpower? What are you known for? Hit us with it. JOE: We're the top performing franchise growth engine. We work exclusively with franchisors and franchisees, and the reason we do that is we want to give Fortune 500 level customer service, results, strategy, and ROI, but we want to be able to do it when you look on the franchisee level at a small and medium size business price while delivering that. When we do that, we offer a money back guarantee. We're the first and only franchise marketing agency to offer that money back guarantee. We work with 50+ brands. We're one of the fastest growing companies in the U.S., members of the IFA, the whole nine yards.  ROB: Wow, congratulations. There's a certain clarity to that that is certainly appreciated. Let's peel it back just a layer. When we think about franchise, I think some of us think about restaurants, but there are franchises of all stripes. There is plumbing. There are franchise marketing agencies, for that matter. So what does a typical customer look like? Is there a particular range of franchises, of locations? Because you could have two or two thousand. What's a typical engagement look like? JOE: We work with some franchise systems that are owned by what we would call a platform, like a parent company that owns franchise systems. There are some franchisors that we work with that actually own 20+ franchise systems, and within each of those franchise systems there can range anywhere between 20 franchisees on the small side and 200 on the large side. So, we're talking within these companies 2,000-unit franchise operations, and some franchise systems that we work with even have 6,000+ franchise units within them. Also, on the other end of the spectrum, there are franchise systems that we work with that are 10-unit franchise systems. We power them on franchise development, we power them on consumer marketing and new customer marketing for their franchisees as well as their company and locations, and we also power their talent recruitment through digital marketing to drive highly qualified applicants. Staffing is obviously a huge challenge in today's world, and particularly within the franchising space. ROB: That's a little bit of a wider scope of services than I think we often hear in local marketing, especially once you get into the recruitment side. So that's interesting. Is it the same channels for getting customers in and getting employees in? Is it different? What's the mix of touchpoints there? JOE: It is the same channels, used in a different order, plus there are additional channels that are recruiting specific. Obviously, there's different job boards that are highly important in the recruiting space, and then there's also a whole host of digital channels that can be activated, from geotargeted Google Ads to Facebook advertising. Each of them has their strengths and their weaknesses. Our job within these franchise systems is to understand what their hiring needs are, who they're looking to hire, what their historical hire rates are so we know how many applicants we need to drive, and then we can also reverse engineer the hire rate by channel, and then we can from there figure out their cost per quality applicant by channel and then develop a marketing mix that's going to allow them to continue to grow. ROB: There's a lot going on there. Over time we've seen different platforms that have tried to jump to the forefront to help, I think, organizations like ChoiceLocal, handle marketing for multilocation, for franchises. What's the state of the tool ecosystem for this? Has any tool that tries to help with this problem and actually create a library of content to push out to different locations worked? Or has it not worked and you end up building some of those solutions yourselves? How do you look at dozens of locations, different local needs, some shared content, that sort of thing? JOE: There are a lot of agencies that will come in and sell franchise systems, their own proprietary tech in order to bring that about. What we've generally found is when these marketing agencies bring in their proprietary tech, it's more in the agency's interest and less in the interest of the franchisor and the franchisee. Essentially, it's “Here, take this marketing solution. Take our proprietary tech, and then it's impossible for you to leave us.” That's how they set that up, and it can create some difficulty and a lot of angst within these different franchise systems. When working in the franchising space, what you need to do is build a win-win ecosystem where the franchisor wins, the franchisee wins, and as a byproduct of that, as the agency you win as well. There's a whole host of various tools in this, from Rallio to WebPunch to SOCi. There's a lot of others. Yext. These are all various powerful tools that can be used and deployed. There's other powerful tools in the call tracking space, too. You have companies like CallRail who do a really strong job with this, with call analytics and those types of things. The job of the agency is to find the right tools that are right for that franchise system while also using their agency buying power to leverage economies of scale and do what's in the best interest of their client partners. ROB: If I hear you correctly, there's not a one-size-fits-all best franchise management tool. It is a little bit of a best of breed, it's a what are the needs of your particular brand/set of stores, that kind of thing. Sometimes it is Yext, maybe sometimes you bring CallRail to the table. You're the experts, and you're prescribing the menu that you recommend. JOE: Yeah, that is right. One thing, too, as you follow these companies – depending on how much they're investing in R&D, how much they're willing to listen to their customer, how much they're willing to allow their agency partners to fuel their product roadmap and guide their product roadmap – that's really how you're going to pick your partners, in large part. There's a lot of these SaaS companies that are not very customer service minded. They're more like “Get in, sign up for a product, and then leave us alone” kind of deal, and as an agency, that's not the kind of partner you're looking for. You're looking for ones that will invest in making sure that you can use their tool to provide the best in the world customer service to your end customers. Why I say that is that's something to look out for in the beginning. And the other reason I say that is the companies that are willing to invest in their customer service also tend to invest in their product development, and you'll notice there's ebbs and flows of who's good and who's bad when they do this. And things change, so you've got to find a partner that's always looking to change and adapt with the market as it changes and evolves. ROB: It's interesting how the cast of characters has changed. When I google for this problem space, Hootsuite is out there, Content and Sprout are out there contending for just a small slice of that franchise deal. But you know they're chasing every other vertical in social as well. I can certainly appreciate – we're in Atlanta; CallRail is a neighbor company here. Do you know their roots a little bit? It's an interesting background on them. JOE: It's a really neat company. ROB: The founder started off with a site to help people with BMWs that were out of warranty to find a local repair shop. My understanding is if you have a BMW that's out of warranty, you need a local repair shop. That's what I've heard. So, he started off doing lead gen for these local shops and then built call tracking to help prove the value of his BMWershops.com website, and ended up building CallRail from it. JOE: What's neat about CallRail, too, is they really have come in – there's a lot of companies that historically have played in that place, and they really trounced them. Some of their advanced features and some of their call analytics, listening to calls, transcribing calls, turning them into qualified leads, or basically saying what's a qualified lead, what's a hot lead, what's not a lead, and how they built some of that technology – it's pretty cool stuff. ROB: Yeah, there's a tremendous customer focus there. I do want to shift gears for a moment; I want to get to the origin story of ChoiceLocal. What led you to create this firm? What led you to this point of focus, of all the areas you could have focused on helping and niches you could have served? JOE: I served at a company that served multibillion dollar companies. I was a Vice President of Operations of Product Development there. We served Fortune 500 companies – FedEx, CBS, other multibillion dollar publicly traded companies. That's where I spent my day and that's who I served. We built a team of 180 full-time digital marketers. Kind of a neat story. Started as employee #8, within a few years worked my way up to VP of Ops and Product Development and did that. It was cool. I learned a lot and I had some really great mentors while I was there. The owners there have done some really amazing things outside of agency, just building multimillion dollar companies and multibillion dollar companies and taking some of them public, like NCS Healthcare and others. So, I learned a ton while I was there over that 10-year period. Then in 2012, we had a pregnancy. Went into an ultrasound room with my wife and there was no heartbeat. So we lost our son, Ben, pretty late in the pregnancy. I always said I wanted to be successful so that I could help people, and that day it changed to “I don't want to just build something; I want to help people and I want to do it now. I don't want to be successful so that I can help people later. I want to do it now.” That's actually how ChoiceLocal got started. In its simple form, our mission always has been – our mission and our core values were written prior to even having a business plan – our mission is help others. We help our partners succeed, our franchisor and franchisee partners, help their dreams and aspirations become a reality. We help our teammates' dreams and aspirations become a reality. We've been a Top Workplace in Northeast Ohio five years running. We have a teammate Net Promoter Score in the 70s, which is unheard of high. You ask people, “What is a good employee Net Promoter Score?”, the answer is 30. We're hanging out in the 70s. So, we really work to live that mission and really care about others. Working in the agency space, a lot of agencies will bring in talent, they will work them like crazy for like five years until they burn out, and then they leave and they go in-house. Having experienced that and have friends who've experienced that in other companies, I wanted to do something fundamentally different. That's why we founded ChoiceLocal and built it the way that we have. But our mission of help others is also giving back. We take 10% of the profits out of the company and we use it to help kids in need. Our big hairy audacious goal is to help 10,000 kids a year. We created the Benjamin Isaac Foundation, named after our son, Ben. We just gave a home to a single mother with three kids. Her name is Brie; she's got three beautiful boys. We just had their house dedication two weekends ago, and that was through Habitat for Humanity. We were the sole sponsor for the home. Got to meet her beautiful boys. We helped them move in, had the housewarming and a dedication. It was so cool. It's just so cool. We do tons of other stuff like that. So far this year – it's now June, and we are at a little over 6,000 kids that we've helped through various charities that we partner with. ROB: Well, 4,000 more to go and then another goal. JOE: Yes, raise the goal. ROB: There's a depth in that origin story. I think something that is interesting to think through – when you have a team, when you're giving to causes, how do you connect the day-to-day of what the team is doing to the causes that the company is giving to and really ensure that there's an authentic connection there? I think it can be very disconnected sometimes. Here's the owner, here's the team, we're building this stuff, some money got shot out over here – to a good cause, but maybe it doesn't feel relevant to the day-to-day. So how do you think about connecting the team to the cause? JOE: That's a great question. It's a really great question. The first thing is we hire for people that have the core values that we have. Family, giving, integrity in all things. There's certain ways that you can interview people to make sure that they have those. And if you actually study some of the psychology behind it, if you study various hiring techniques that are used in books like Topgrading and WHO and those types of things, there's ways you can interview for those core values and competencies to screen people out that don't have that. So, you're hiring people that believe what you believe and then you're coming into a culture that celebrates those core values and celebrates those things. For example, we have a team meeting every single month where we update on everything that's happening in the agency, what's going on with business strategy. We're transparent on financials and performance and all of those things so everybody can see what's going on. We have a part where we talk about help others and core values. In core values, people nominate teammates and they celebrate how they live those core values out, and we tell those stories. A lot of those core values are how we help our partners and internally, but it's also how we give back. And then we tie in our financial performance. We then say, “Because we were able to do this, we were able to give Brie and her three boys this gift.” We make it very personal. Along those lines, we also have quarterly volunteering. We try to get every teammate to volunteer once a quarter so they can see, feel, and touch the work they're doing. My personal favorite is when we go to the Boys and Girls Club of America. Those kids need love, they need support, they need good mentors, and when you go there, you feel fantastic afterwards because you've been able to deliver some of that for them. So that's really powerful. And then we also do this BHAG walkthrough. BHAG stands for big hairy audacious goal. We have this roadmap, and then we say, “Here's three kids that were helped because of this. Here's 1,600 kids that were fed for a year in a place of education.” We did this charity giveaway through our annual thing at the International Franchise Association called the ChoiceLocal 10k Charity Giveaway. People enter a drawing giveaway. There's a really cool story – there's a woman who served as a board member of the International Franchise Association; today she owns about 20 Taco Johns franchises. Very successful businesswomen. She picked the Great Harvest Heartland as her charity, and she ended up winning. What I found out after she won is that as a kid, she was so poor that she needed to go to the foodbank to eat. So, it was a very personal gift for her. That's the type of stuff that really hits home, when you always tie it to that personal story. And then when you say, “Because you were able to do this specifically,” and you name the person, “it allowed us to be able to do this.” Sorry, I'm passionate about this – the last thing I'll add to it is helping the business owner. This particular franchisee is having a really hard time and they're on the verge of going out of business. We had a good amount of this through COVID. We announced the ChoiceLocal Economic Stimulus Package for our customers. We have this whole “grow through the downturn” quarterly priority and theme. We saved probably 30 franchisees from going out of business during COVID, and that was really cool. We celebrated each one of those as a company during the team meetings and made a really big deal out of it, because it's a huge deal. They put their life savings into the business. Together, we helped save their business. That's flipping awesome. It's really cool. ROB: What an opportunity. I hear a certain proximity that you're referring to within the team. Is all of your team right there, one office, one team? Is that your world, or are people in different places? JOE: It used to be that way, pre-COVID. We were in the office three days a week, and Monday/Friday work from home. COVID hit and we went 100% remote. Then we had highest teammate Net Promoter Score ever, highest client Net Promoter Score ever, highest revenue ever by far, highest profit dollars. We're like, this is working really well. So we surveyed our team and said, “What do you guys want to do?” and everybody said basically, work from home, come into the office once. So, we instituted that. What we then found is about 10-15% of our staff in a given week would come into the office, and they'd come in on different days, and when they came in there was like 3% of our staff there. It felt a little lonely, and some people like that connectedness. So I just met with our leadership team on this this past week; we're probably going to be instituting now – we do a lot of stuff on Slack. I know a lot of companies do. Basically, we're going to have ChoiceLocal In-Office Day. It's going to be completely optional, but everybody that's going to go is going to go into Slack, fill out this poll, and RSVP and say “Hey, I'm going to be in the office this day” and try to get other teammates to come in. And then they're going to have a group of probably 30-40% of the company in on that individual day, and they can hang out together. Plus we do all the fun stuff. We have team meets once a month. Those are in person. About half the company comes to those; the rest are virtual. We bring in catered food. We're in Cleveland, so we're going to watch a Cleveland Guardians, which used to be the Cleveland Indians, game. ROB: Yeah, that's an adjustment there as well. JOE: Stuff like that. We do Topgolf. We do a big Christmas party every year. Stuff like that. It's fun. It's so fun. ROB: It sounds like an adjustment, but it sounds like listening to the team, it sounds like adjusting well. When I think about folks I've known in the agency world in Cleveland, there's no shortage of opportunity to lose your team to the revolving door of brands. That seems like it's probably the way of life there – not to mention the regional opportunities with vendors. It really does take some work to keep them on the agency side, I think. JOE: Historically, at my prior agency that was definitely a continual challenge. We launched ChoiceLocal with the mission of help others, with the goal – we're not perfect at this; I don't want to sugarcoat it – but with the goal of being a fast-paced, high energy environment, but you work 40 hours, then you unplug and you leave work at work. We were able to build our systems so that's possible. We historically have had almost no turnover. Now, with that said, this year during COVID, our turnover rate has spiked a bit, but it's nothing like I was ever used to. In a year we would have maybe, out of 100 people, like 1 to 2 people leave that we didn't want to leave. Historically. This year that number is probably up to like 4 out of 100. ROB: Yeah, that's turnover, but it's not a high turnover rate. It is managing what it is. It sounds like you have learned a lot along the way. As you think about lessons you've learned building ChoiceLocal, are there particular things you think of that you would wish to go back and tell yourself to do differently if you were able to? JOE: There's a whole host of things. One of the things I have as an advantage is I was a political science major, and I learned absolutely nothing in college that is useful to me today. [laughs] ROB: A beginner's mindset is what you're saying. [laughs] JOE: Yeah, exactly. There's this book called All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten, and there's so much truth to that. I was raised treat others the way you want to be treated, and that's how I've always operated. I've always brought that to what I do because I thought it's the right thing to do. But I've actually found it's an amazingly sound business strategy. What I'm going to say now may be a little bit controversial, but there's so much stuff that you learn in business school, like when you're getting your MBA and those types of things, and so much of that you need to throw out and ignore because it's trash. For example, you're a service-based business, so a person is not a commodity. A person is not a tool to be used. A person is not a KPI. They are a person with dignity, a person who has a family, a person who deserves to be cared about, loved, and appreciated. If you just do that and focus on that first, the business results tend to take care of themselves. But at the same point, KPIs are important. Accountability is important. Ensuring that you have that is critical. Knowing that you hire right for core values first and for performance second, but also critically important – all of that integrates really well, and those are really important things. The last thing, from a mistake that I made, that I'll say is there's a book called Multipliers: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Else Smarter, and basically the premise of the book – and this happens for a lot of folks in agencies, particularly in leadership positions – how did you get successful? You got successful by busting your butt and being pretty smart about the way you do things. That's how you were successful. The weakness that comes with that is as you get a bigger team, you need to shut up, you need to ask questions, and you need to be humble. That's the next level. And that book, for me, as I was evolving and growing as a leader, taught me those skills. It played a really important role, and now it's something I believe in so strongly. I met with a future VP of our organization who's probably going to get promoted to a VP very, very shortly, and I said, “Read this book. Take it to heart and do it.” Then I said, “Here's all the stupid things that I did, and here's how this book helped me.” ROB: You start to pull apart some pieces, many questions come to mind. I start to think about – clearly, when you talk about future VP, there's some planning there. There's still some awareness of individuals in your organization, even though at 100 people, it starts to get hard to know everyone. Especially when some people aren't even coming in one day a week, possibly. It's an interesting mix. I think this probably had to be intentional for you as well – building up the leadership team. What are the pieces you've put in place at different stages in the business to build around you to be your best, but also to help the company be its best, maybe where you aren't? JOE: Hire generous people, people that love helping other people be successful. If you have people on your leadership team that don't believe that, don't have them on your leadership team. And if you don't believe that, work on it. [laughs] It's so critical. You need to hire generous people, surround yourself with generous people. It's funny; I was like, we're the world's best at marketing for franchise systems, world's best at franchise development, consumer marketing for franchising; we're the world's best at recruiting for franchise systems. Why don't we just own a franchise system? So, we launched a separate franchise system, hired a guy who led another franchise system to $750 million in network revenue to be the CEO of it. And he believes what we believe. What attracted him to us first and foremost – and he's got an amazing track record in franchising – was our values. He's a generous person. He believes in integrity. He believes in accountability and performance at the same time. So, you've got to find people that believe that and have those competencies. The other thing I'll say is it's important, if you're hiring somebody to lead a business, that they understand that business. You can do it and you can be successful if you don't understand it inside and out, but it's way harder. If you can find people with the right values but also who have worked at different levels in that industry over the course of their career, they can understand the strengths and weaknesses of various decisions, and when you make a decision, how it affects people in different parts of the organization or what you're actually asking and what it entails to make it happen. Which tends to result in better decisions being made, better business performance, less mistakes. Those are the types of things that you really look for. ROB: What franchise business have you got yourself into, then, now? JOE: The name of it is Broadview Dental Group. Our vision is to be the largest provider of dental care in the United States within 10 years. We have some aggressive plans, but I am very confident that we're going to be able to pull it off. ROB: And I've heard that some different models of roll-up franchise operating groups – I've heard they're taking the dental world kind of by storm. The independent dentist is starting to dry up a little bit. Are you seeing that? Is that part of the move? JOE: Yes, it is, and it's sad. What's ended up happening – there actually is one other franchise system in the dental space. I wouldn't call it a real franchise system. That sounds arrogant. I don't mean it that way. But if you look at how franchise systems typically operate, where they basically have some sort of buy-in and then some sort of royalty, it's set up very different with the buy-in being extremely, extremely, extremely high. It's different. But if you look at most of them, they're called DSOs or DPOs, and what they basically do is a dentist is like “Hey, I want to get my practice to the next level.” Then these DSOs or DPOs, which are typically funded by venture capital – this isn't always the case, but typically with venture capital, they care about one thing, which is maximizing shareholder wealth. They'll say, “Okay, you want to take your business to the next level? Sign here. We get 70% equity in your business up to 90% over time, and we can fire you if we want to, and we'll help get your business to the next level.” When you're a dentist and you're passionate about helping others and you're passionate about your practice and your trade, you basically just need a really good business mentor, and most dentists really haven't had it. So what we're doing is giving them 100% equity in their own business, a way to get to the point where they can have 4.5 times the profit of a typical dental practice and only have to work three days a week to do it, and all they need to do is follow our system. And they own 100% of their business. They can sell it when they want to, and when they sell it, they'll sell it for a higher multiple because guess what? In franchising, when you sell your business when you're ready to retire, it's worth more because it's a franchise system and it's proven. There's less risk involved. ROB: Right, it's not (Your Name) Dentistry. It is part of an umbrella. There's brand equity there, there's a system. They don't have to figure it all out. One of my college roommates, his dad was in the dental world, and when you mentioned the high fee to buy in – he always told me dentists like to buy expensive things, so I guess the franchise must be one of those things, just priced for the market, I suppose. When we look ahead to what's next for ChoiceLocal, what's next for marketing in the franchising world, Joe, what are you seeing? What are you excited about for the firm, for what is going to be necessary for your clients to continue as the marketing world evolves? What are you seeing? JOE: There's so much exciting growth ahead. One of the things that I love about being an agency that focuses on ROI and provable results is every time there's an economic downturn, it's good for the agency growth and it's good for your customers. What happens is when there's an economic recession, which I believe we're headed into – we have horrible inflation and there's certain policies that have to be implemented to bring it under control, and the result of that is going to be a recession. What happens in those cases is companies tend to pull back in marketing. But if you're driving marketing where for every dollar they spend, you're giving them $18 in new customer revenue, it's stupid not to spend that. You can grow through the downturn. You can take market share. Imagine putting a dollar in the stock market and getting $18 back within a year. It's a brilliant investment. It's a simple investment. So, what's going to end up happening is that's going to accelerate growth within agencies that are ROI-focused as this economic recession hits, and for however long it hits for. That's exciting. But what I'm also excited about in the newer leading-edge things within agencies is the ability for big data backed with artificial intelligence to transform marketing, to transform business, and frankly to transform medicine. I was talking with the COO of ChoiceLocal, who serves a role with Broadview as well, and we're like, who ever thought that two internet marketers would fundamentally change healthcare and dental care in the U.S.? You'd be like, “Explain that.” It's the same thing you do in marketing with big data. If you have a massive amount of data in a HIPAA compliant way, you can anonymize it, data mine it, and find correlations and causations and literally, with that type of patient data pool, you can change medicine. Similarly, you can do the same thing with marketing, where you can data mine, you can find ways to micro-target ideal customers based on who current ideal customers are – and you may not even know what some of those things are – and then you can target them and measure the performance and lift. That's crazy cool stuff. And that's the newer leading-edge stuff that's really exciting, particularly when you're dealing with franchise systems and the volume that's behind that. ROB: Right. You've got volume there, you've got a growing scale in the business. To think about leveraging it for more than just “Hey, we're bigger” – lots of interesting things there. Joe, when people want to find and connect with you and with ChoiceLocal, where should they go to find you? JOE: They can go to choicelocal.com. Everything is there. They can follow ChoiceLocal on pretty much every social media channel that exists @ChoiceLocal. So they can do that. They can follow me personally on Twitter @helpothersjoe or connect with me on LinkedIn. I try to post a lot of content there that's specific to purpose-driven business, which is a huge passion of mine, as well as franchising and marketing as well. So yeah, @helpothersjoe on Twitter is for me personally. ROB: That's excellent. Joe, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Congratulations on what you've built so far and why you're building it. I think everyone listening has enjoyed the depth in the origin of the business and the intentionality as you build it. JOE: Thanks, Rob. Thanks for all you've done and thanks for having me on today. It really is a great pleasure. Really appreciate you. ROB: All right, appreciate you. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

The White House says it will open up some federal lands for oil and gas drilling. If you are the oil companies, would you accept Joe Biden's invitation? Maybe when hell freezes over! It's episode #232 of The ANEZ SEZ podcast...

In hour 2, Chris talks about Biden embarrassing America on the world stage this past weekend, saying things that his team had to immediately walk back or correct, as some like Jennifer Rubin and Joe Scarborough praise him as the greatest president ever. For more coverage on the issues that matter to you download the WMAL app, visit WMAL.com or tune in live on WMAL-FM 105.9 from 5:00am-9:00am Monday-Friday. To join the conversation, check us out on twitter @WMAL and @ChrisPlanteShow See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Joe Ferris is thoughtbot's CTO and Managing Director of the thoughtbot DevOps and maintenance team known as Mission Control. Mission Control is our newest team doing DevOps Support, Maintenance, and SRE (Site Reliability Engineering). The goal of Mission Control, rather than building products or pairing with team members to improve their team like the rest of thoughtbot, is to support those teams and support other client teams in deploying and scaling applications. They have an on-call team and do more complex cloud build-outs with the goal being to empower and educate the teams that we work with so that they are more capable of working in those ecosystems on their own. Follow Joe on Twitter (https://twitter.com/joeferris) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-ferris-81421a167/). thoughtbot's Mission Control team (https://thoughtbot.com/mission-control) Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Joe Ferris, thoughtbot's CTO and Managing Director of the thoughtbot DevOps and maintenance team known as Mission Control. Joe, welcome back to the show. JOE: Thanks, Chad. It's been a while. CHAD: It has been a while. I think you were the first-ever guest, if I'm not mistaken. JOE: I believe that's right. We talked about null, I think. [laughter] CHAD: Yeah. And it would have been with Ben back when I was just a listener and maybe producer. So welcome back to the show. It's been a long time, and a lot has changed at thoughtbot over the years. I've been talking to each of the managing directors of the new teams, and I wanted to be sure to have you on. Why don't we take a little bit of a step back and talk about Mission Control? When we say DevOps and maintenance, what do we mean? And what does Mission Control do? JOE: Sure. Mission Control is our newest team doing DevOps support, and maintenance, and SRE. It came out of our experiments with DevOps a while ago now, almost two years coming up. Historically, thoughtbot has shied away from getting too much into DevOps. I think a lot of us had some unpleasant experiences earlier in our career around sysadmin tasks and expectations there. Not a lot of people have wanted to be on call historically. So we've heavily leveraged services like Heroku that take a lot of that burden away from you and avoided doing things like direct to AWS deployments or getting too involved with CI/CD pipelines that were particularly complex. But we've had clients over the years that have requested more interesting or more difficult deployments. And finally, we had one a couple of years ago, where we said, "All alright, let's just handle this instead of saying no or trying to outsource it." We thought it made sense for them. And after going through it, we came to the conclusion that it was actually pretty good that the ecosystem had evolved a lot and that it was a service worth offering. That began our journey into DevOps, so to speak. So we did some smart DevOps work for a variety of clients over the next year or so before we decided to form an official team doing this new kind of work, which is how we ended up with Mission control. The goal of Mission Control, rather than building products or pairing with team members to improve their team like the rest of thoughtbot, the goal of Mission Control is to support those teams and support other client teams in deploying and scaling their applications. And we have an on-call team. We will do more complex cloud build-outs. And our goal is to empower and educate the teams that we work with so that they are more capable of working in those ecosystems on their own. CHAD: You used the acronym SRE earlier in that little spiel. I'm not sure that everyone knows what that is. [laughs] So it stands for Site Reliability Engineer, right? JOE: That's right. And that's been newer for us. So DevOps is supposed to be the fusion of development and operations. But the operations world is really big. So similar to how everybody has problems getting people to be full-stack enough given the complexity of front end and back end, we have similar problems in design. We also have that problem in DevOps where both development and operations are huge, rich ecosystems. And so, having developers that are fully experienced at both is hard. So the path of least resistance, when you say are doing DevOps, is definitely just to do operations. And it's been a struggle for us to actually break down those silos and have teams work more on the operation side on their own. So one of the things that caught our eye with SRE was some of the built-in mechanisms for engaging with the team. The one-sentence pitch for SRE is that it is operations if you approach it like a software problem. It has these concepts of SLOs, Service Level Objectives, and error budgets, which is the amount of time you spent violating your SLO. And part of the process is getting buy-in from the entire team, from the stakeholders down to the developers and the operations team. And so, it provides a natural interaction point between the operations folks and the rest of the team because nobody wants to break the error budget. Once the error budget is exhausted, everybody has to stop building new features and focus on stability until the error budget is cut up again. So rather than having this unpleasant give or take where we're more coming from the operations side, and we're always pushing for more stability, and everybody else is coming from the product side, and they're always pushing for more features, SRE gives you this useful metric to have that conversation around where we're not always just pushing for more. We're trying to hit a specific goal that we've agreed on. And when we hit the goal, we know that we can keep full throttle moving out new features. CHAD: Now, is the SRE a developer who is also working on resolving errors before the budget is hit? JOE: Yeah, a Site Reliability Engineer is a developer. But that's actually not too different from other forms of DevOps. DevOps is supposed to be developers in general. When I say we built an operations team, even if you look at the work that we're doing, a lot of it is development work. We build scripts, and automations, and so on. We don't manually set up EC2 instances, and not everything is toil, even outside of SRE. But the idea in SRE is that somebody will be more integrated with the development team and make changes to not just the operational stack but also the development stack in service of reliability. I've heard it said that SRE is a particular implementation of DevOps. That makes sense to me. CHAD: Let's start back in the beginning because you made reference to the fact that historically, a lot of what we deploy was deployed to Heroku. And we did that because, for a lot of the applications that we're building, it made sense. It minimized the operational overhead of deployments. There is a point in some systems that you cross a line. Where do we see that line typically being where you need to start looking at something else? JOE: I think there can be a few different instigating factors. One of the fastest ways for somebody to want to move to AWS is if they have significant security concerns, particularly for healthcare applications. The security model is more straightforward in AWS to have better isolation. There are options on Heroku, but it requires going to a different Heroku platform using Shield. And you just don't get the same power you get in terms of network isolation models you get on AWS with your own VPC. So if you're already at the point where you want to start out with a VPC out of the gate and do that kind of isolation, my opinion is you may as well own it and go to AWS. So that's one reason. Another is if you start hitting scaling issues, Heroku is easier for the developers because it's simple and it's very streamlined. But doing complex deployments is difficult, which eliminates some of the options available to somebody doing something like SRE. So to give one example, one mechanism people can use to make it safer to deploy without potentially introducing bugs or performance degradations is a canary release where when you release, you put the new version out as the canary build. And you route maybe 5% of traffic to that, and you actually collect metrics on performance and error rates on the canary traffic versus the regular traffic. And then you have some period where you're in experiment mode, which varies depending on the level of stability you're looking to achieve. Once you're confident that the canary release didn't introduce a regression, then it gets promoted to the stable build, and you do that every time you deploy. I have no idea how you would do that on Heroku. CHAD: I think you'd have to do it at the application level. You'd have to do it with a feature flag system. And it would only be possible to do some of the things that you would be able to do if you're able to do the whole system. JOE: Right. And I guess you could do weighted random numbers to try and decide whether to canary or not. But one of the benefits of doing it outside the application is there's no way to make a mistake. So, for example, if you introduced a bug in your canary mechanism in the application or you forget to put it behind a feature flag, then you've now deployed to production, and you have an error. Whereas if it's managed by the CI/CD pipeline, you're just deploying a new version of the application. In Heroku land, that would mean you deploy the new slug as a canary build. In most other areas, it means you're deploying a container image. That's one example of why if you get to the point that you have a lot of traffic in production and you need to manage that traffic while continuing to release features, it can be helpful to work on a platform like AWS where you have a lot more deployment options. Another one is that SRE is heavily built on observability and metrics, which can be difficult to collect on Heroku. Some of that is just a matter of lineage. Like, the SRE community was built up around tools like Prometheus that are scrape-based. That means you need to have a special metrics endpoint exposed on all of your containers. In Heroku, there isn't a way to access any of your dynos directly except through the web router, and you can't control which one you get. So using Prometheus on Heroku is not really practical, which means you need to re-implement what everybody else has built for SRE using a different observability tool. And observability out of the box on Heroku it's easy to get set up, but it's more limited. So doing something like complex SLOs and setting up error budget dashboards and alerting is going to be a significant task. Versus on a platform like Kubernetes where it doesn't sound like it'll be easier, but it is because there are open-source tools that you can just deploy. CHAD: You mentioned Kubernetes. It's probably worth calling out that that's pretty much what we are using across the board, right? JOE: For our AWS and other cloud deployments, we have standardized largely on Kubernetes. We started out using simpler containerization platforms like ECS on AWS. But what we found is that the developer tooling is generally not particularly good because there's not enough community momentum behind any of those. And the open-source is limited versus something like Kubernetes there's a massive open-source community. There is a ton of different tooling that people build that's available for developers and for DevOps. And for these things like SRE, you can use almost entirely open-source software to build out all of the interesting parts of that and deploy that. So what we've been building is basically an SRE Platform as a Service where we collect these open-source components. We deploy them to a managed Kubernetes cluster. And then, applications can immediately start exposing metrics to Prometheus and defining SLOs. CHAD: So much in the same way where we talked about some of the boundaries where it starts to make sense to not be on Heroku, what are some of the boundaries that teams hit where it makes sense to start thinking about SRE or even just having someone on the team that's focused on that kind of work? JOE: I think as soon as people start hitting their first scaling challenges. So for an MVP where you're validating a product where you don't actually have production traffic yet, I don't think it makes sense. And I also think I would avoid deploying to something like Kubernetes if you can help it for an MVP. But for anybody who has scaling concerns, SRE is a very useful mindset. And the sooner you start adopting it, the sooner you'll start to build an application that's made to scale. It can be very difficult to put out those fires while something is not on a platform where you have many options, and nobody has been thinking about observability. It means that you need to be guessing at how to put out the fire as well as simultaneously introducing metrics and potentially planning a cloud migration. So I think as soon as you start feeling nervous about deploying to production or as soon as you notice that you're spending a lot of time working on performance, it makes sense to bring in SRE. I also think anybody that needs to provide an SLA should for sure implement SRE. It can be used to measure whether or not you're on track to hit an SLA because you basically set SLOs that are stricter than your SLA, and you make sure that you meet it. CHAD: Is there a way that existing teams can layer on some of the SRE activities without having full-time SRE people? JOE: I think you can have a team member who does development that also acts as the SRE. If you have a small team, I could see the commitment to it being daunting. I think that could be one good reason to bring in outside specialists if you're not at the point where you can afford to have a full-time SRE in-house. Working with a team that can provide an SRE on-demand like Mission Control could be valuable. CHAD: I didn't realize that that was going to be a perfect segue into part of the value proposition of Mission Control [laughter] when I asked the question. But I guess that's a really good point. That is part of what we're helping people do is monthly contracts that provide this to them, even if their team can't do it 100% of the time. JOE: Right, except for pretty large teams. I don't think it makes sense for them to hire a full-time SRE. It's much easier to work with a team like ours that has the experience and has more than one person. Even if you do hire a full-time SRE, you will only have one. So if they go on vacation, or if they get sick, or if it's in the middle of the night, then do you still have an SRE? I think that's one of the benefits of working with a team. CHAD: And that's been interesting with Mission Control because we introduced Mission Control and made it a formal thing at the same time as going entirely remote. And it's interesting how doing that freed us up in terms of being able to commit to building a different kind of team. It doesn't necessarily need to be on call after hours if we're going to have an entirely remote team. We can have people on that team that span different time zones. And so, from a thoughtbot perspective, it's interesting how those things went hand in hand for us. JOE: Yes, it's been immensely helpful for Mission Control, in particular, to be fully remote. There are a lot of options that wouldn't have been available to us if we were a U.S.-centric team. It's been really interesting. I've built out development teams before that were focused on a location. And it's been really interesting to build out this team with a focus on availability and distribution. For example, one thing that has helped us is having somebody in South America because they don't celebrate U.S. holidays. So even discounting time zones, which are a challenge when you're trying to provide around-the-clock availability, just having that kind of diversity in holiday schedules really helps. So we've been able to build it totally differently than we would have if we were trying to put a bunch of people in an office. And I think it's made it possible for us to have much better coverage with a much smaller team. Mid-roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: So Mission Control I introduced it as maintenance and DevOps. So we're also helping people with different kinds of things beyond operations, right? JOE: Yeah, particularly with SRE, there's a focus on stability and scaling. And we're also helping people with CI/CD. One of the focuses for us this quarter has been helping people develop CI/CD pipelines that provide safer deploys and providing guidance and a system for developers to implement things like feature flags and beta flags. Because one of the challenges of making performance improvements is that you don't actually know if you've solved the problem until it's deployed, and deploying something that changes performance is inherently risky. And so, in addition to helping people actually make the performance improvements, we have to demonstrate the process for deploying and testing those improvements. CHAD: I've worked on fairly big systems in the past. But there have been a couple of different instances over the last maybe year where we've approached the problem in a different way than we have in the past, which has been really interesting to me from a development standpoint. It's the idea of…if you remember, for the food delivery application, we had that conversation about the different ways to build APIs rather than versioning APIs explicitly. And that has been a different approach than the way I would have done things in the past. And it's been a really powerful approach. So, can we talk a little bit more about that approach? JOE: Sure. CHAD: Well, specifically, so we have mobile applications that use a back-end API, and not everyone updates their mobile application at the same time instantly. You have bugs basically in the wild that you are fixing or that you're changing in your API, or if you're just introducing API changes. And so the idea of instead of explicitly versioning API on the server-side and having clients write to a specific API, instead building much more flexible APIs, in particular, having the client tell you what version of the API that they're expecting but through consolidated API endpoints so that the server is much more in control of the behavior than the client being in control of the behavior. JOE: Yeah, I think the two big changes that were helpful on that project were using GraphQL for some of the APIs, which provides more flexibility generally than a typical REST API and the minimum version requirement. So the application sends the version of the application. And the API will tell the client they have to upgrade if it's a version that isn't compatible with the newer APIs. So when we do have to break backwards compatibility, we force an app upgrade. CHAD: But in general, you're taking the approach not to break backward compatibility. And you're meeting the client where it's at whenever possible and maintaining backward compatibility in the APIs. JOE: That's something that we have been teaching developers about generally is backwards and forwards compatibility. We do that with deployments as well. For some of the larger deployments we have where there might be dozens of containers running for a service, it certainly doesn't make sense to stop them all and start new ones because the app would be down for a long time. And it would take too long to catch up to the backlog of requests. But even a typical blue-green deployment is problematic. So if we have 30 containers running and we spin up 30 new containers, and they all need 15 database connections, then during the deploy, you potentially overload your database or exhaust your connection limit. Plus, you will need to allocate the compute resources for double the normal workload. So what we've been doing instead is rolling deploys almost everywhere where we spin up a few new containers using the new version and wait until they're fully online, spin down a few old ones, and then repeat that process until everything is up to date. But to do a rolling deploy like that requires backwards compatibility with the services it uses, in particular, at the database. And so, writing Rails migrations that are backwards compatible for one version has been a challenge. CHAD: And there's not really good tooling in Rails to do multiple stages of things. So if you really want to do that, you have to manage that in your source control basically and say, "Here's a new migration. We're going to merge in and deploy after this one," and that's not so great. JOE: Right. The other way to do that in the CI/CD pipeline would be to release commits one at a time and wait for them to be rolled out. But depending on how you structure your commit log, that could be pretty tedious. [laughs] CHAD: Yeah. I've seen as I've worked on this other project we're really striving to do continuous deployment. It's a high traffic, very complex deployment with lots of individual configured tenants. Separating out the concept of a deploy from a release has been very valuable for the application and for the clients. It changes the way that you need to think about how development progresses. I never before really worked in a system where you're literally sometimes duplicating and preserving old code, putting new code in place, having them both deployed, and then being able to switch between them as part of the release, and then cleaning up the old code later. At the scale that this is at, at the complexity that this is at, it makes sense for that application. It obviously doesn't make sense for everybody to be working that way. JOE: Right. Breaking up applications to be a little smaller, having components that could be experimented with individually would make some of that easier. The experimentation there separating the release from the deploy some of that is necessary because it's monolithic in so many ways. Like, it's a very big Rails application with one database with ACID compliance, which is a very powerful model. And it provides simplicity in some ways. But then it requires you to take on the complexity of making sure that you release things correctly. I do think that it would be difficult in this particular situation but for applications that reach that level of traffic and where you need to manage the risk of deploying, having smaller components, having some services broken would make that easier because you could do, for example, a canary deploy with one release rather than duplicating the code and having the old and new version. CHAD: Right. The services create boundaries with contracts about behavior and reduces things that are tightly coupled together, and their behavior is tightly coupled together. So, for example, on this application, we do have that one service that is completely managed independently from the main monolith and has its own deploy schedule. And we can, for the most part, change them independently without needing to go through all of that process that we go through to manage change. I think you're absolutely right. JOE: Another experiment we've been trying for another client is it's another Rails monolith. There are different audiences for it. So this is the food delivery application again. And there are customers who are placing orders. There are drivers who are delivering orders. There are restaurants that are fulfilling orders. And then there are admins who are managing everything in the back end. And there's some overlap in the data they use. But the actual requests, and controllers, and pieces of the Rails application they use are almost entirely isolated. So one challenge we had was being able to provide different reliability contracts for those different audiences and also scaling them and configuring them differently. So, for example, if you've done tuning for a Rails application before, you've probably tweaked things like how many threads will I have for each of my Puma workers? How many Puma workers will I have per container? How many database connections do I need in the pool? And what we were able to do for this application using Kubernetes and Isto was running the same application, the same container, so like one monolithic Rails container but running it more than once in different configurations and routing traffic to different pools of containers based on the audience. And so, for example, if the customer is making requests, those all go to the customer pool of containers, which are scaled independently and have their own configuration tweaks for the kinds of requests that customers tend to make, which are generally small, high throughput requests with lots of little rights. And then, compared to the admin panel, they typically view dashboards and big lists of records. And so, the requests tend to be larger, but the number of users is much smaller. There are way more customers than there are admins. And so, for those, we have fewer connections. We have more memory allocated for the kind of bloat that results in those types of requests. And we also have a different performance objective for admins. It's more acceptable for those pages to respond a little bit slower. And admins understand it's their job. They have to use the software. So they'll reload the page if they have to versus a customer where if they're having trouble placing an order, they might just buy somewhere else. So that's been a pretty powerful mechanism we were able to leverage CHAD: Is that switching on URL-like endpoints? JOE: Yeah, it's based on the path. But the mechanisms available to us are actually pretty powerful. At that point, we have access to the full request. So we could really route based on anything we wanted right down to the user. CHAD: I guess that's a really good example. You don't have access to that routing on Heroku. JOE: No, I think any Platform as a Service where they manage the routing if they don't provide that feature, you don't get that feature. CHAD: This is the first we're talking about this. That is a really interesting example of how to scale a monolith solves some of the problems that services often get you without having to break everything up right off the bat in order to do that. JOE: Yeah. I also think it provides kind of an inside-out approach to doing that. One of the problems with breaking out services is you have to plan what the services are going to be to a certain degree. And so, I think the best way to do it is to extract services from a monolith the same way you extract classes to break them up. And this audience-based approach is almost like a dry run. You can see if the boundaries you're drawing make sense in terms of traffic. And if those make sense, it probably makes sense to break up the front end at those boundaries eventually into different applications. And then figure out what services you need to extract to provide the common infrastructure for those front-end services. The same way test-driven development makes it much easier to find the correct tests to write, I think this approach of audience boundary discovery is an interesting approach to finding service boundaries versus trying to guess at what the services are, which very frequently leads people to wrapping services around database tables which doesn't help at all. CHAD: Yeah, that's the wrong thing to be looking at when you're looking at how to do services. JOE: Right. It's almost like deciding what your database tables would be upfront before you've seen the UI for the application. CHAD: Cool. So heading into 2022, we're looking ahead at the upcoming year. And so what's on the docket for Mission Control? JOE: We didn't start experimenting fully with SRE until the third quarter of this year. And so far, we've loved it. So I think we'll make a pretty heavy investment into our SRE offering. The goal is for us to have an open-source set of Terraform modules that effectively deploy a platform ready to go for SRE. What we want to do is maintain and curate that platform and then deploy it and maintain it for our clients. I think another big thing we'll be doing is (This might be incredibly boring.) but restructuring the way our agreements work a little bit. One of the things we wanted to test out when we built Mission Control was how much we could have built into a monthly recurring contract versus billing for time and materials like we usually do. So we tried putting a lot into that contract and really pushing the boundaries of what would be reasonable. And there was definitely a lot of pain there for us and a lot of difficult conversations with clients. So I think for 2022, we will be shifting a lot of our work back towards time and materials. So I guess that's a lesson out there for anybody else that's providing [laughs] support contracts is to make sure that the responsibilities contained in the linear amount scale linearly. CHAD: I think when we originally conceived of Mission Control, we also saw it handling a lot more things that it turns out just were not doing as part of Mission Control like regular Rails upgrades. JOE: Yeah, a lot of the things that we included in contracts originally were not particularly important to clients or at least were not outside of what they were capable of doing already. So it wasn't that much of a value-add. There are a lot of people out there that will upgrade your Rails version. And having somebody who just does it in the background but isn't aware of some of the impacts that might have in the application turned out to be not much of a value prop. Whereas stability turns out to be a big pain point for a lot of people, people don't know how to do it. And then our maintenance offering, I think what ended up providing the most value is not the keeping the code fresh parts, but it was more for the teams that don't have a large continuous development team having access to somebody who can fix quick bugs and things like that without needing to first negotiate a contract with a provider. I think that provides a lot of value. Those are pretty separate and different offerings. But those are the pieces that we found have really been valuable to clients. CHAD: Well, great. If people want to find out more about Mission Control or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? JOE: Well, we have a website thoughtbot.com/mission-control with a dash between mission and control. There are a few ways to reach out there. You can also find us on Twitter. We are @thoughtbot, and I am @joeferris. CHAD: Cool. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Joe Ferris.

Biden gives another talk today which means we had a bunch more Backwards Biden Bumbles including calling Sec. Marty Walsh Sec Walsh Marty.

Results Coaching Model with Brian Lovegrove Brian Lovegrove has been on his journey of personal growth and professional development since the age of 17. Inspired by Tony Robbins, he has created not only a catalyst but a unique approach and process to helping others, like you, achieve their goals. He believes in providing & building upon the knowledge most coaches provide by practicing these lessons and building a HABIT! Using his "5 Keys of Success" in his coaching, he is a firm believer that if these keys are used, failure is all but eliminated. In this episode, we learn about all the tactics Brian uses and has honed over the years of being a coach and we did into a few of these methods during our conversation. As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Brian Lovegrove Leadership Developer and Results Coach Website: https://brianlovegrovecoaching.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brianslovegrove LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlovegrove/ Live Masterclass: https://www.becomeunstoppable.info 5 Keys to Success Podcast: https://5-keys-of-success.simplecast.com/ Unleash Your Fear eBook: https://www.unleashyourfear.com/freebook Email: lovegrove@lovegroveltd.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hi Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm looking forward to having you on so many things I have to ask you, because you hit a core thing here with training, personal development courses, all of these things that I read about. And it's going to be interesting to find out your answers to these burning questions I asked. Brian: All right, Joe, I'm looking forward to it. Let's get rocking and rolling here. Joe: Awesome. OK, so you have to bear with me, because I literally do this with every single person on my podcast, is that I think it's important for my audience, who I believe is mostly entrepreneurs, whether they're currently doing their thing or they want to do their thing or they're struggling, doing their thing or whatever it might be. I think it's important for them to know the back story of the person that is on, because it's important to understand the development of where you came from and how you got to where you are today. And I think a lot of those things that you talk about actually people listening, going, oh, yeah, I've been there. I did that. I remember that. So I always leave this open to saying you can go back as far as you want, because if something in elementary school created who you are today, I want the audience to know about it so you can start wherever you want. Brian: Well, people ask me how I got introduced to personal development in the first place, and I actually go back to junior high. My dad was a commercial real estate broker and I grew up in Montana. And any time we would leave town, we would go on a long trip. And so he would pull out these tapes from work. And this was, of course, back before the iPods. The noise canceling headphones in that great, wonderful device that many of us grew up with, the Sony Walkman, Joe: Near Brian: Whatever Joe: And dear to my Brian: He Joe: Heart. Brian: Put into that. Yes. Yes. And so I got stuck listening to whatever was in the tape deck. And so I got introduced to guys like Earl Nightingale, Jim Roan and my favorite Zig Ziglar. And listening to those guys, Dennis Wailea, on and on and on and on, they taught me what it was to be an entrepreneur. And I remember Ziggs saying, treat every job as if you were the owner of the business and those HAQQ series that I listened to through junior high and high school shaped me in my choices in college. I actually got a degree in professional sales because of a I was originally going for a management degree my first year. My sister was two years ahead of me and she told me after my freshman year and says, you know what, Brian, you might want to consider changing majors because the people that I know that are graduating with management degrees are struggling to find jobs. And I went back and that that prompted me to ask a really good deep question at all. I don't know, 18. I asked myself, what career, what major, what level of information do I need to get while you're at college that would regardless of what happens to the industry, because I knew, you know, it's going to be out here in the marketplace for over 50 years. What degree do I need to go get that will? Regardless of what's going to happen, the ups and downs of the industry, whether we end up in another recession, we end up in another depression, that I would always have an opportunity to have a job if I wanted one. Brian: And that always brought me back to the sales aspect that Zig always mentioned, because, again, he did a lot of his sales around the Depression area and that that aspect of life where it's like how do you survive? How do you keep going in those areas? And it's really the salespeople that make the world go round. And so that's what led me to a sales degree. The other decision that I made when I was 17 was I got introduced to a guy named Tony Robbins and I bought his first tape series. Imagine a freshman in college spending probably a month of his earnings on a tape series. And I bought Tony's unlimited power. I still have the tapes are used today, actually gone and bought a second set because I wore out one of those tapes so that because I listened to it so much and I followed Tony ever since, I actually helped promote and put on his seminars for one of his franchises. And along the way, I've always been doing personal development, personal growth, and, you know, a lot I loved it. I just ate it up. But one of the big challenges that I ran into, I turned 40. Brian: It was like, why am I not far enough along? I've been doing this for 20 years. Why am I just here? Because at the time I was struggling to pay the bills. I was struggling to get by. My wife was working. We had two small kids. And I thought by the time I turned 40, I would have been much farther along by now. And so in this process, I realized it wasn't until much later that learning is not enough to make lasting change. I was actively learning. I was seeking the puzzle pieces, the pieces of information that was missing in my life. And I figured once I learned that then life would be easy and I'd be making all this money. But that never happened because I never did. The one thing that I learned all the way back in the beginning from XG is you have to do it until you get good enough at it, till it becomes your new normal. And only then, once you've applied and implement those strategies in your life, will they actually work for you. And you've got to do it long enough to get good enough at it and then continue to stick with it to where you can actually allow the compounding effect to, you know, you slowly creep and then you kind of turn that corner and it goes straight up. And it took me 50 years to hit that. Joe: So I'm going to go back real quick because I want to know what triggered you to buy that Tony Robbins course. You know, I know you were listening to this stuff in the car with your father on the Walkman or whatever else you were doing it. I mean, a kid at 17 doesn't do that. So what triggered it? Brian: Well, I had read the book, his book had come out and I had read the book and I really loved he had such a different style and he was talking about different things and he was talking about the things in the mind and he was talking about he and the different aspects there. And a lot of that was like, oh, my gosh, this stuff makes so much sense. And I was applying some of those strategies and I was seeing specific results. And I was like, and that's really what made me buy in. In fact, that's probably one of the few programs that I really started implementing strategy on. One of the big strategies you talked about was marketing Meeri, and it was one that I specifically used as I got into my initial first jobs and sales career. But I used on a consistent basis to help me actually get as far as long as I did. Joe: Ok, I'm still going to ask the question, because I'm not sure if you answered it yet. Why would a 17 year old buy the book like 17 year olds don't don't get into this stuff. So and I think it's important to figure out what triggered it for you. Brian: Well, again, I think it has to do with that was the next step, I the company that was putting those out was Nightingale Conant Joe: Yeah. Brian: And my dad would get those and I probably was home. I don't remember where I was when I got it. I might have gone home for Thanksgiving or Christmas. And I grabbed the magazine I love looking at because again, I've been doing this for a number of years now. And I was like, what? What's the new stuff they got? You know, Wayne Dyer was there and you know, you know who who are who's the new people? And there was this new one from this guy named Tony Robbins. And I don't know, I guess it just resonated with me. And I think it was seventy five bucks. And it was like and to be honest with you, I really can't say what prompted me to go. I want that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But I think it was more of the sales pitch in the description of what it promised me. Joe: Got it. Brian: More than anything, that's what I would say it was based upon the results that were promised, based upon the description of the tape series. Joe: Ok, so you've been around that sort of thing for a long time, right? And if correct me if I'm wrong at any point, because I want to make sure this is super clear to the listeners, is that from what I get of what we're going to go still back, I still have other stuff to do, but I want to kind of set the stage of your expertise or what you believe is, is how you can help people. As you said, you can buy all the courses and attend all the conferences and do all of this stuff. You've said it here. You set it on your website. The enthusiasm kind of goes away when life gets in the way. Right. It's basically that simple. You come back from the high of of being at a conference or are listening to something and then life literally just gets in the way and you don't get the things done that you promised yourself that you would. So my understanding is that you are basically this coach that is going to keep you on track. Whether life gets in the way or not, you're basically going to be this person that is going to bring people along through all of this and keep them accountable to what they promise themselves that they would do and make sure that they do all of the things that are needed without shelving anything because life got in the way. Is that fair? Brian: Right, it is because, again, you know, Tony is great if you've ever been to one of his big events, you P.W. he he can talk nine thousand people into walking across twelve hundred degree recalls in a day. Joe: Yeah. Brian: By the end of day one, he's got you walking across Coles. But again, how do you can't maintain that energy and that excitement and the momentum of that event for weeks, months, years to get to where you want to go? And Tony has admitted that this is an area that he struggles with, is how do I get people to keep going? Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Which is one of the reasons why he has his coaching program that you can go and pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a coach for a year, and it's one of the reasons why he actually created the pyramids, Madonna's training group, to train people like me to be coaches that help people implement his strategies. And that's really what it comes down to, is how do you take the strategies that, you know, you need to be doing and implement them? One of the biggest challenges in society today is we don't teach people discipline for the most part. There's a few places that that happens. But outside of that, it's not encouraged. In fact, it's almost especially in today's society, you're not responsible, you know, being responsible for yourself, being accountable. That goes out the window. And yet that's how you are going to be successful. That's how you're going to get to where you want to go. Unfortunately, society is teaching people to be cheap and to live in mediocrity. That is not how you're going to get to where you want to go, because I'm assuming that most people here are entrepreneurs. Joe: Mm Brian: They're Joe: Hmm. Brian: Entrepreneurs for a reason because they are sick and tired of working for somebody else's dreams. And so they want to pursue their own dreams or they think they can do it better. And so they're out there trying to do it on their own. But there's a myth that goes with that is the fact that they have to do it on their own, they have to try to figure it out all by themselves. And some of my best clients are the people that have gone to school to learn how to do what they want to do, a chiropractor or a massage therapist, the tradesperson, they know how to either pound nails Turner Ranch, adjust somebody's back, but they don't necessarily know how to do this thing called run a business. And so there's certain aspects that come into play because my my ideal market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional who's out there wanting to make a difference in their world, in their communities and their lives to make a bigger impact. But they're struggling to do that because they're trying to deal with all of the distractions and all the stuff that's coming at us. And it's like, how do I get a hold of that? How do I how do I focus on those things that truly matter that are going to move the needle for me and my business? And that's really where I come alongside them. Brian: And I say that specifically because I can't take the journey for you, but I'm happy to take the journey with you. And see, that's where the big challenge is, is a lot of people feel like they go to the seminar, which is, OK, here's how you go climb a mountain. Here's the equipment you're going to need and what happens to the trainer. They get all loaded up. They load them up and they say, go have fun. And they go walking down the path. And the river that they were told was a small creek is now this raging river, the bridge that they were supposed to be able to go across was washed out. And it's not like, what the heck am I supposed to do now? They weren't prepared for what they're going to experience or they didn't get enough information. That's one of the things that I always felt in the training classes and seminars I went to. I always felt like there was a piece of information missing. And there's only so much that somebody can teach you. You actually have to go experience it for yourself in order to develop those nuances that are really going to make a difference for you. Joe: Yeah, and I think that there are very, very, very few people in the world that can and you hit it on the head, the discipline that they will actually take, what they've learned, whether it's in a chorus, it's at a seminar or whatever, and actually implement it and be accountable to themselves. I think that's a really, really small pool of people. And so Brian: It is. Joe: Because the Olympics just happened, if we even made an analogy of like you went to class to become a gymnast and you said in a week long seminar to learn all of the different moves and tricks and flips and things, and then you just don't go and show up and start doing that. You have a coach that's watching you Brian: Right. Joe: And and helping you understand all of those things and the mechanics of it. So to me, that's what you're that's really where you help, is that you are there to, like I said earlier, to to to to push them, keep them on track, assist them with when they Brian: The. Joe: Hit roadblocks. You're by their side throughout the whole process. Right. Brian: Right, and I think so many times we have this misunderstanding because we've been taught that learning is going and sitting in class. And that's not necessarily true, but unfortunately, the self development industry has taken this model of let's bring them in, sit them down, overwhelm them with information, make them feel like they're drinking from a firehose so they feel like we've given them a tremendous amount of value and then send them on their way. And so the more people we can pack into that room, the better we make more money that way. Yeah, we actually end up doing a disservice to the customer, to the client, because at the end there is no support. And so how do you make sure somebody has what they need in order to actually achieve the results they want? And that is challenging along the way. And we've created several ways for people to do that because, again, money gets in the way. I mean, if you have enough money, you can find somebody that's going to come alongside and help you get to where you want to go. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But we actually started one hundred bucks a month. We've got programs where you can get that at least some help along the way to get you to where you want to go. And we grow from there. But it comes down to this process of how do we get you to take the actions you know you need to take? How do we get you to move forward consistently? And it's just like the example you used is great. The one that I love to use is the example of going to get into shape. You don't go to the gym for three days straight and be done. That doesn't cut Joe: It's. Brian: It. You know, usually you go once for a few hours and you're like, oh my God, you wake Joe: Yeah. Brian: Up the next day and you can't move. And so it's like, why would you expect you to be able to do that in the other areas of your life? Joe: Yeah, I go to the gym five days a week and I still am like, why don't I look better? So you're really in a great position to do this, because how many years did you spend in that whole seminar course kind of world? And I know you're still involved in some of it, but you helped run Brian: Well, Joe: Some Brian: I Joe: Of these. Brian: Yeah, I help promote Joe: Yep. Brian: To put them on the grand scheme of things, I didn't do that a lot. I was probably with them for maybe about a year before the franchise partnership broke up and therefore the franchise collapsed. But it was a great opportunity and I learned a lot going through that process. Back in starting in 2003, I joined Toastmasters and worked myself up over the number of years to become a semi-professional speaker when I wrote my first book and got kind of started in that. But I never really got traction and got that off the ground in this process. One of the things that happened was I shifted from Toastmasters into a leadership role in nonprofit organizations, specifically to the Boy Scouts. But one of the things I saw was because, again, I was focusing on the teaching aspect because I love watching that light bulb go off. But what I didn't realize was because I didn't see it in my life at the moment, at the time yet was that, again, teaching them was good. But coaching them is better because, again, it's about growth and it's part of my all the exercises and things I've done. I mean, I have done it easily. Quarter of a million dollars on personal development. I have bookcases and bookcases of books and tape series that are, you know, this is the pretty self I have, you know, boxes on wooden shelves and storage units full of books and stuff that I've consumed. And it's actually one of my coaching partners mentioned to me and from one of the coaching programs I was in, he says she said, Brian, you have a vault of ideas and strategies to help somebody to move forward. Brian: And so when they need it, you can provide it for them. And so really, it's about getting people to move. It's not about trying to teach you something new. It's about how can I get you to move forward and understanding how to motivate somebody to move. And he talks about the pleasure and pain principles. We move away from pain a lot easier than we do towards pleasure. But many times we only use pleasure as the incentive for us to do something. And a lot of times I'm working with some basic activities with somebody. One of the things that you can see it here in the video, if you're watching it, is my incredible results, 928 Challenge Journal, which is basically spending about 20 minutes each evening documenting what happened today, well, as planning tomorrow. And the first challenge that people come up with is doing it every day. So far, nobody has done ninety one days straight. There's a few that have come close. But on average, it takes people a good month to get into the habit of consistently writing in their journal. And so, again, it's about understanding what it takes to get people to move in the direction they have said they want to go and using those two buttons and pushing them at the right point to get things to to happen. And again, once we start getting that ball rolling and we start developing momentum, that's when it gets fun. Joe: So we are in the age of so many, like self education, know so many programs and classes and courses and all of this stuff on the Internet, right. You can find it everywhere. So and you might even admit to this yourself, because based on what you just said about having a shelf full of tapes and all of this stuff, what would you say to the there are people out there that are professional seminar attendees right there, their professional course. So, Brian: We call them seminar junkies. Joe: Ok, so Brian: Yeah, Joe: We Brian: I've been there. Joe: Ok, so this is good because you're coming from the understanding that Brian: Oh, yeah. Joe: One more seminar, a one more class or one more course is not going to make the difference. It's that you have to start implementing what you've already learned and actually admit to yourself that you haven't done the work or this is the work you need to do and actually come up with a plan. Right. It's just like we hear it a million times. It's just so hard for people to understand, myself included. I'm not I'm not preaching from a soapbox here that, you know, you have to have a roadmap. Right. Because if you wanted to get hop in your car today and drive somewhere, you need to know where you're going. Right. You would get lost. Brian: Yes. Joe: It's no different Brian: Yes. Joe: With our life. Right. So what would you say to those people that are listening to that do continue to just think that that next breakthrough is around the corner by buying yet another course are going to some sort of seminar or conference? Brian: Put down the Kool-Aid because you have drunk the Kool-Aid, Joe: Right. Brian: What they're actually doing is they're pursuing the feeling, the positive feelings they get when they go to the seminar. They're enjoying that high and over time that wears off and they want to change the way they feel. They get frustrated and they go, oh, I want to feel better. Their subconscious then says, OK, well, how do we make ourselves feel? How we do that? Let's go to another seminar. I talk about this in the master class. That is, we get stuck on this learning loop and we go and we learn some information. We get all excited and we go try it and we fail. And usually when we fail once or twice, we quit. It gets hard. It gets uncomfortable. And we don't like to stay there. We don't like we don't we want to don't want to go through that process of learning how to do it and do it long enough to get good enough at it that we actually get to the other side of. OK, I got this. You know, it's like learning to ride a bike. You're going to fall and the only way to get better is to have somebody let go in and you fall down. You got to go through that process. You've got to learn to you have to make the mistakes. You have to, quote, fail, because, again, it depends on how you define the word failure, because at the end of the day, we get to choose what things mean. My definition of failure is different than most people's. My definition of failure is you only fail when you quit or give up. Joe: Hmm, agreed. Brian: Or you don't even try. Joe: Yeah, so it's almost better that if someone had that itch, they should stop for a moment and say, OK, let's do this, let's just try something completely different that we've never done before. Let's actually hire a coach and spend the same amount of money that we would have spent on a course. But we have a coach with us by our side for however many months or a year or whatever, however long that is. That same amount of money could be spread out to have someone keep you accountable and help you to come up with a plan and stay on track and implement all the ideas. Right. Brian: Absolutely. Joe: It would be worth a try for anybody who's one of these. You could Digicom junkies to seminar junkies. Brian: Yeah, the seminar junkies, Joe: Yeah, Brian: Yes. Joe: Right. So it would be a change? Brian: What's Joe: Of course Brian: The Joe: It would Brian: Right Joe: Be. Brian: If what's your outcome? What do you want? Why are you going to that seminar? And there were several times where people said, well, what are you what do you expect from this? What do you want to learn from this? And people are sitting there throwing out answers. And I would be sitting in the background going, I really don't know. I don't I don't have an answer for that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And that was kind of the clue is like, wait a minute, why am I here? Because I want to learn. That's not good enough. I want you to know I started getting specifics is I want to learn how to do such and such and such, and I want to be able to, you know, be successful at doing that. And, you know, whether that was real estate investing or personal development becoming a coach, a lot of those things was, OK, how do you do it? Because, again, we're learning about doing and we learn through doing much more powerfully. There's a difference between head understanding and gut level understanding. And so, first off, a coach, if you haven't had a coach before. I'll share a good story with you, because this is how I got introduced to coaching was I actually bought the up sell of a seminar program that actually included six monthly coaching sessions with one of the coaches that's kind of designed to help you do it. And my experience was I actually got more done in those six months than I had in the previous five years. I did more stuff. I made more progress. And as I went back and analyzed the even deeper, I did more the week before that phone call that I had the previous three weeks combined because I knew I was going to have to get on the phone with him. And again, we're leveraging fear and that pain to our advantage. That's one of the reasons why I wrote my last book on Leisure Fear. One of the strategies that I teach is how to make your friend and how you make sure your friend, as you turn fear around, it's pulling you forward instead of holding you back. Brian: And one of the ways that we do that, as we make it more painful to stay where you are than where you want to go and having to get on the phone call with me or on the Zoom call with me. And we sit in there and says, OK, Joe, you said last week you were going to accomplish these three things. How how far did you get on number one, how far did you get on number two? How far did you get on number three? Now, I don't beat you up if you don't get them done. What I'm doing is I'm wanting to get under neath it and understand the root cause of what's holding you back, because when I when we're able to do that, you see hole that was fear of criticism. That's what prevented me from making those sales calls. I needed to make up for the fear of rejection or whatever it was. And we talk about that. And then we because again, we get to choose what things mean. And so what does it mean to make a cold call? Most people hate cold calls. What if you could turn things around to where you loved cold calls? Because, again, you get to choose what things mean. You can love cold calls. And so, again, it's basically going in there and playing in the mind and shifting away the what the beliefs are, because that's what it comes down to it. That's what our life is all about, is how we feel and what we believe. And when we understand that we do everything in life to change the way we feel. It's really interesting on where things go from there. Joe: Yeah, and I think either I think I read something from your website, I believe, but something you said, I think that's where it was, but it was something about the moment we actually tell the world what it is that we want to do. We're accountable for it. Right then we everyone that that was in earshot of that or reads it somewhere on our website that we're now responsible to do it. And that's why so many people don't actually put that out there, because then they're like, oh, crap, I actually have to do that now. I said it. Brian: Right, Joe: I told Brian: Yeah. Joe: Everyone I was going to do this. Brian: But you're right, it comes down to we are afraid to put ourselves out there Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Because we're afraid of being criticized now, we do have different types of people in our lives. We have people that I refer to as Krabs, and they're usually in your left hand. For those people who haven't heard the story, I'm sure you have. Is it if you put a crab in a five gallon bucket without a lid on it, it'll crawl out right Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Easily. But if you put two crabs into that five gallon bucket without a lid, they won't crawl out. The more actually, the more crabs that are in there, the less likelihood that the crab is going to get away, because as that crab, they're programming mental instinct programming that we have within us is that to stay part of the group to follow the herd. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And if somebody is trying to climb out, they're going away. And so the rest of the group will pull them back down. And if he continues to do that time and time again, they will actually kill him. Joe: Oh, I didn't know that part of the story. Brian: Yes, well, the same thing is true with other people in our lives. We have people that are on the same level that we are or below us and we're wanting to grow. Now, that doesn't mean that they have negative intentions. They're actually doing it for a positive reason because, one, they don't want you to leave them, but they also don't want to see you get hurt. This is where our family comes in. Parents say, oh, you just sit still, Johnny, because you're not ready for that yet, or they don't want you to go pursue this thing that they perceive as scary, risky, and you're likely to get hurt. And so they're going to try to talk you out of going in, pursuing your great dream. But then there's other people that, again, they're just going to knock you down, they're going to pull you down. And if you've ever listened to Lester Brown, he talks about that and his family, he'd show up for Thanksgiving. And his brother goes, Hey, Les, how's that seminar speaking gig going? And it was almost I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. But we also have people that want to support us and help us. And so it's who are you going to listen to and who are you going to spend time with? And so but it's also important to be in that group of people. Brian: Your support people are in your right hand, your crabs are in your left hand. It's important to know who the person you're across the table with and who you're talking with on the phone. Is this person a crab or is this a supporter and then interact with them appropriately? Because if you're talking with a crab, you stay in the shallow end. You don't talk about your dreams. You talk about the weather, you talk about sports, you talk about whatever that is dull and boring at the time and not really enlightening to us, but allows us to maintain the relationship because there's times in our life when, yes, we can eliminate some of those crabs because other times they're related to us and we can't get rid of them. And so what do you do? So in part of it is, one, you reduce the amount of time, and then two, you understand who you're having the conversation with and understand they're coming to you with a positive intent. They're trying to keep you safe. They're trying to they want you to be happy and they want you to stay well and they don't want you to get hurt. But the same thing is true with our subconscious, which is why our biggest enemy is right up here Joe: Yep. Brian: Is the robot that runs the show 80 to 90 percent of the time. And that's where I spend a lot of time, is helping people reprogram the robot, their subconscious, because unfortunately, it was a program with a lot of crappy code and trying to reprogram it is not as easy as copy, delete and then copy and paste. It's not that easy. It's like the biggest, ugliest ball of spaghetti you've ever seen and trying to figure out where that thing goes. And it's a mess. It's just a mess in there. And but we do have the ability to go in there and change it. And the more we actively pursue that and focus on that and pursue growth, the faster we can get to where we want to go. Joe: So we're going to talk about the services you offer, but you touched upon something that in a previous episode that I had put out, I got a lot of comments about it. And so I want to talk about it as it relates to you personally. And then we can talk about how you use it with your clients. But you spoke about journaling. And the more and more I hear, either I have guest on or I hear people talk about it, the more and more I feel like it's almost got the same benefits as when people talk about meditating, how you can quiet the mind. It was all this fufu stuff many years ago and now it's becoming more the norm. Right? It's something that you need that quiet time. So tell me more about what you think journaling does for people and the importance of journaling Brian: Ok, well, Joe: And Brian: Actually. Joe: Whether or not you actually do it nightly or daily or I'd be Brian: Yes, Joe: Interested to know. Brian: Yes, the the if you can see it there, it says, a life worth living as a life worth recording. And so, Tony, he's inspired me to consistently journal. I have journals from my first in fact, in my latest move, I was going through a lot of them. And I came across the journal that I had right after college. And I was actually really interested to go back and see the progress of my first sales job that I bombed out. I lasted like three months. My experience was the story I was telling myself was different than the story that I was reading. And so, one, it's a great way to document your journey in life. But the way that I teach people to journal No. One is it leverages the power of evaluated experience because you stop and think about it. You probably have heard that experience is the best teacher. Yes and no, because unless we learn the lessons from that experience, then it was pointless. If we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, we keep doing the same thing and expect different results. We're not learning. We're not growing. And so journaling is a great way for you to document your journey, but also to stop and evaluate what happened today. What did I get done? Because many times we get to the end of the week, we get to the end of the month. Man, I feel like I didn't get anything done. And you can go back to the daily journal process and go, oh, yeah, well, I did that and I did that and I did that and I did that. Brian: But it also allows you to say, OK, what am I actually getting done? And is what I'm getting done, moving me in the direction I want to go? Because, again, we've talked about the journey that we're on. We have a goal we want to achieve. And in order to get there, we like you said, we have to have a plan. Many people don't put together the plan. In fact, many go study programs. And I listen to rarely was there any planning process involved. And so I actually stepped somebody through this. Exactly. And the incredible results on what they challenge is Ugo's. We set our big yearly goal and we break that down into what are we going to accomplish in the next ninety one days and then we break that down. This is OK. What's going to be month one? What's going to be month two? What's going to be month three? And then we break that down. OK, what's going to be week one of month one. What's going to be in week two. Week three, week four. Because again, the only way to get to complete the ninety one day journey is to each day make forward progress. And how do you make sure you're making forward progress if you never look at the map and compare your results, what you're getting to see if you're moving in the right direction. Brian: It's like a airplane taking off from New York to L.A. without a GPS system, without a method for them to course. Correct. You know, there's a reason why there's a compass in the airplane. There's a reason why there's a GPS in there that's consistently every moment checking in and saying, am I on track? Am I on track and making those little minor adjustments along the way? Because if you actually look at a slight wiggle from L.A. to New York, because there's turbulence up there, there's wind currents up there, lots of different things depending on which way you're flying. Are you flying with the jet stream or against the jet stream? All of these things are impacting that flight. The same thing is true in our life. How do we make sure we are on target? And journalese is one of the ways to do that. But we also encourage people. The way that the journal is set up is to do that evaluation experience where you document what you got done, you documents your lessons along the way, and you also document the changes that you want to make, the adjustments that are going to make tomorrow a better day. How can I be better tomorrow? And then you plan tomorrow. One of the biggest challenges we have is making sure we get the right stuff done. How do you make sure you make time to get those important but not urgent activities into your schedule? Because if you do not intentionally plan them and schedule them into your calendar, rarely, very rarely are they going to actually happen, which means you're never going to really make the progress you want to make, because stop and think about it, your goals require a lot of time and energy doing those things that are important but not urgent, which is another reason why having the accountability is a big factor in that. Brian: It's like, OK, it's it's not urgent, but oh, my coach is going to be asking about it. What do we just do? We created the needed urgency. Give you a perfect example. I had one of my clients. She wanted to raise her rates and so she'd been talking about it for months. And so we were working on the programming in her head so that she felt like she was worthy of that price increase, putting it off and putting it off. And this is OK, put and says, OK, what's the plan? And so we specifically detailed walk through the plan. OK, I need to put a sign up on the door and I need to send out a notification of my. People and I got an email and, you know, here's an opportunity for people to come in and sign up for a plan where they can lock in the current pricing. And I says, OK, when I come see you next week, I want to see the sign on the door. When you think you put the sign on the door right after that call, Joe: Ten minutes Brian: 15 Joe: Before Brian: Minutes Joe: You showed Brian: Before Joe: Up. Brian: I 15 minutes before I walked in the door. Exactly. And it wouldn't have happened if I had not pushed her to make that commitment. As a mom, what are we going to do? Are we just going to keep going down this road? Because that's one of things that we do, is we look at it, says, OK, what happens if you don't change? If you keep doing the same thing you're doing today over and over again, you're going to get the same results. Are you happy with that? Are you satisfied with it? If you're not, then what are you going to do differently tomorrow? That's going to change. The trajectory that you're going internally is a big piece of that is to help make sure that you are documenting your journey and you're evaluating the experiences that you're getting and making sure that they're taking you in the direction you want to go and if it's not making those adjustments along the way. Joe: Is the majority of the time it happens is at night, just before you go to bed sort of thing. Brian: One of the things that we designed the system to be very flexible. There's actually a place for people to write in their schedule and there's no numbers on it because I've got clients. It's wake up at five o'clock in the morning and then there's guys like me who don't start their day until seven, but I'm usually up till midnight. So, again, it just comes down to fitting it into your system. And that's actually one of the things we do within the group coaching calls is we're saying, how do I take this system that Brian has created and apply it to my life? How does this fit into my life? And we teach people how to do that. And I've got one client who does restoration work. So he's very much like a firefighter. The phone rings and it's like the alarm bell going off. He's got to go fix somebody's problem. So how does he schedule his day? And so we came up with a system on how to use the system because what happens if the alarm doesn't go off? What are you going to do? So we had a plan, a system and a Plan B system Joe: Mm Brian: For Joe: Hmm. Brian: It. We recommend the Evening Times for a couple of reasons. Number one, when you're planning tomorrow, you don't have to remember it. Actually, you get a better night's sleep. Joe: I get it off your brain. Brian: Right, and so your brain, is it trying to remember all the things you've got to do tomorrow? We also encourage now I have some people completed at their end of their workday. So at four thirty, when they go home at 5:00, I've got one woman who does it at three thirty before she go pick up her kid at school at 4:00 and she's basically document what did I get done? And she's also there's still some things potentially that she's going to do because we incorporate not just your business, but your life in the journal. And so it's like, OK, what am I going to be doing for all 16 hours? And I'm awake and relax and let go because so many times we struggle with constantly running. And there's a reason why there's a pad of paper and a pen on my bedside is because there's a lot of times I wake up in this ideas and I got to sit there and I get to write it down because I will not remember when I wake up in the morning. And so it just comes down. We try to get the system to fit the person, not the person to fit the system Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Like so many of them do. But at the end of the day, it comes down to what works for you. We recommend in the evening because of the benefits there. There are some people that do it first thing in the morning. If that's the case, as long as you're doing the system, great. Joe: I just hear about it all the time, and I said I was going to start it after the last episode, that someone who was heavily into it, I even publicly said, all right, I got to start doing it and I still haven't done it. Brian: Well, let's have a conversation about that, Joe, because, again, at the end of the day, it's what is it going to take to get you to move? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And that's actually something that because, again, I've got numerous stories that I can tell you about people that because one of the one of the most common mistakes that people make when they're doing the journal is the fact that they only do it Monday through Friday. They don't do it Saturday, Sunday, because, again, like the woman who does it at the end of the workday, my question to them is, OK, that's good. But what are you going to do, come on Saturday, Sunday when you're not going to the office? What are you going to do then? And so we create a plan on how and then we got to you got to figure out how to make it work. And so I actually challenged several of the people to do it, says, OK, if you don't in. The other thing is, is not getting the journal done. The night before it was OK. If you don't do the journal the night before, you have to spend two minutes on a cold shower in the morning. I don't know about you, but yes, they talk about cold showers being this great, wonderful thing. But I don't want that in the morning. No, thank you. And so, again, we move away from paying much better than the the perceived pleasure. OK, and so it's creating the pain. So it was like, OK, you don't do the journal, not before you're going to take a cold shower or I mean, really what I would do is I give them a choice. I says you can either a take the cold shower or B, you have to text me that says I didn't do my journal last night. Which one do you think people chose? And I said, OK, those are your two choices. You have to choose the greater pain. Which one do you think they chose as the greater pain? Joe: I would think having the texture would be more of the pain. Brian: Yes, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Because that is admitting Joe: Yeah, Brian: That they failed, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Which just goes to show you the level of programming we have around failure. And so, again, it's using fear and pain to move you in the direction you want to go. Joe: All right, a lot to unpack there. So we only have a little bit of time left and I want to honor your time. So let's do this first. Let's talk about I have for services written down that you offer. And you might have added one. You might have taken one away. But I have your one on one coaching. I have the ninety one day challenge. I have the mastermind and then I have your weekly accountability coaching. And so can you just briefly give us an explanation of those. And if I missed one at it and if you're not doing one of them, take it away. Brian: Ok, well, as a coach, I need I don't know where you are, so I don't know which service to offer you or which one is the right fit for you, Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: You or your listener. And so I really start with what I refer to as a discovery session where we sit down and talk about where you are and where you want to go. And then based upon that conversation, we determine how to best help you. Now, where do people usually start? But most people start with the incredible results, starting with their challenge, because it is the one skill that helps people take the action they know they need to be taking that will help them reach their goals. And they see tremendous immediate results, positive results and benefits from participating in the program. And it's one that it's only one hundred and ninety seven dollars if somebody wanted to participate in it. But you got to come through me and do that discovery session in order to determine whether or not that's the good right fit for you. The other thing that is like rocket boosters on the on any one day challenge is the weekly accountability coaching calls and the incredible results. And what a challenge. We do a group coaching call where we are sitting down and we are we're talking how to help use the system, how to get the system to work and fit into your life, and how to help you consistently take action on it. But we also help you with your plan on accomplishing your ninety one day goal. So if your goal is to get 50 new clients, this is OK. What are you doing this week that's going to make you more clients? And we're talking about those different activities in those different ideas and strategies. Brian: So the problem is, is there's anywhere from five to 15 people on that call, depending on how many people are actually in the group at one time. And so it comes down to how do you get enough of my time to where we can truly focus on that programming piece that we've talked about, which is such a big, ugly mess that gets in the way all the time. That is where that one on one time comes in to, where we actually spend 30 minutes specifically talking. We it's a very specifically designed program, says, OK, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I got done. Here's what I learned. And here's the changes I'm going to make so we can review that in eight to ten minutes pretty quickly. And then we spend the next twenty minutes digging into what got in the way. What's the challenge and struggle you're dealing with right now? That's either the bitch that you're in, the roadblock you're facing, or what's holding you back from moving forward. And that right there is tremendously powerful and makes the ninety one day challenge much more successful. And people who are participating in both their results that they get in and I know they challenge is heads and shoulders above the people that are just in the program by itself. Joe: Yep, and I have to ask this, because I'm sure if I was listening to this, it would be driving me nuts the entire time. It's like, why ninety one days? It's not 60, 30, 90, 120. Brian: It's seven times 13 is 91, seven days for 13 weeks. Joe: Steamworks got it. Brian: So because, again, one quarter is three months, which is four point three weeks, and so it's to get a full 13 weeks is ninety one days. Joe: Perfect. So we covered that and the Brian: Ok, Joe: Weekly accountability and then Brian: Right. Joe: The one on one coaching is. Brian: The one on one coaching I refer to I refer to as my general coaching, and that's where somebody is really wanting to grow and make changes. And a lot of times people will start off there. And again, they're wanting to do a lot of growth and unpacking and deal with the programming issues that are going on. And they're wanting to make some significant changes. Those are one hour sessions and those are usually each week as well where we're digging in and we're trying to figure out again, we're making some serious shifts in there. And then a lot of times it's like, OK, we got them straightened out and we got them on a path. We've created the plan. We've got the momentum going now and it's starting to move forward. And a lot of those people will roll into the accountability coaching so that they have the regular check ins that are getting done what they want to get done, but they don't need to necessarily. OK, let's dive in deep in there and start digging around. Those are wonderful sections. I love doing them, but they take a lot of energy on both myself as well as the person because we're going deep. Know, one of the things that you probably have learned by now listen to this is I don't like to play in the shallow end. I like to dive deep and I like to go under the covers. And if people aren't, that's the other thing is if you've got to be comfortable in playing in the deep end and there's a lot of times when my role as a coach is not to tell somebody what to do, I almost never do that because who's an expert on Joe and Joe's business, Joe is right. So my role is to ask you the questions that is going to help you come up with the answers and solutions to the problems that you're faced with that external perspective and to help you come up with the solution that is within yourself and that the mastermind is more Joe: That's Brian: At the upper Joe: Ok. Brian: Level Joe: Ok. Brian: And that right now is closed. So people are not available into that. And usually what happens is we start people off in the 90s when they challenge and there's those people are rolling up into that mastermind as they complete the 91 day challenge. Joe: Scott. Brian: But we start people off with where they are and what they can afford of what they need to do. And so we have programs that start, like I said, at one hundred dollars a month, up to twenty five to five thousand dollars a month, depending upon which program you're involved with. And there are other things that I do. I have mentioned Tony Robbins, but I have not mentioned John Maxwell, most certified coach, trainer and speaker of the John Maxwell team, which means for those people who are not familiar with John Maxwell, he's a world renowned leadership expert. And that was one of the big challenges that I saw was there was a lack of quality leadership in our world today. And because my target market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional, they have never really had much experience with leadership training. But again, I'm not a leadership trainer. I'm a leadership developer. And so we have leadership programs using John's world class material that over a period of 90 days, we teach you the strategies and you practice them for ninety one days so that you develop those skill sets along the way. And so, again, it depends upon where you are and what you need and what tool is necessary to help you fix the problem that you're up against. Because again, I use Stephen Covey, I use Joe Mitali. I will pick from anybody I need to and I will claim that everything that I share didn't originate with me. Brian: I'm standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before me as far as you know, all the way back to the Greeks, Aristotle and and some of those, because they had it first. They they mentioned it. And again, everybody since then is really just repackaging it from there. And if somebody wants to do a DIY version of it, pick a great book. Napoleon Hill's was probably the the godfather of personal development or at least modern person development with they can grow rich. And one of my mentors actually went and read the book and studied it over and over and over again. You probably have heard the suggestion that you should go read a book a week or so, go read 50 bucks a year. Right. I challenge you. That's not the right strategy if you're wanting to grow. It's a great way to learn information. But if you're wanting to make changes in your life. Yeah, one great book and read it 50 times, study it, do the exercises at the end of the chapter, implement the strategies. Another great one is Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That that book still to date. That's one book I try to read at least once a year. And I'm usually listening to it because I'm taking advantage of the windshield time that I have. And it seems like there's always something more in there. Brian: That book is so deep and there's so many different levels that you can get into it as you grow. There's another level. There's another level. There's another level, which is how I spend a lot of my time. Yes, I have three different coaches and I'm constantly consuming more and more material. But there are there's about ten different books that I try to spend time reading consistently because they're the road maps, they're the foundational skills. And it's going to take for me to get to where I want to go. And it's only through consistently coming back to it. You don't become a master blackbelt by learning how to do the form and doing it perfectly. One time I believe it was Berklee that said, I don't fear the man that knows ten thousand ticks. I fear the man that is practiced one kick ten thousand times in the story that got you the story and the rest of the story was the example of that was he says will show me. And and basically what it was is because that person had practice that kicks so well. It doesn't matter if even if you know it's coming, you can't block it, you can't stop it. He has mastered how to do it regardless of what you do to counteract that. The only way to not get kicked is to not get into the fight. Joe: So. We're over a little bit, we have a few more minutes. Brian: Oh, yeah, I'm good. Joe: Ok, cool. So I want to ask you about because you mentioned since we're on the subject of books and you mentioned Joe Vitale and you were you are part of a book called The Abundance Factor. Brian: Yep. Joe: Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that came about and. Brian: Well, I was on the short list as Joe was looking to write his next compilation book, and I had been following him, been a fan of him, read a number of his books. I still practice one of one of the big things that sticks for me from Joe is the story of Hopital Pono. If you have not read the book Zero Factor, I highly recommend it. It's a very fascinating book. The mantra that that book teaches is something that actually helps me go to sleep at night because my brain has a hard time shutting down. And by saying that for phrase mantra helps my it's kind of a signal to my brain to stop thinking and go from into my head and into my body. And so it's really helpful there. And so I was on the short list of authors that Joe asked to help participate in that book. It's called The Abundance Factor. I knew the group of people that were pulling together. And so my chapter is called The Unpleasant Truth, because, again, there's a lot of people out there teaching because we're talking about the mindset of abundance, which is something that a lot of people struggle with. But it's hard for people to actually do it and practice it consistently. And that's really what my chapter was about. It was about taking the actions that the book is encouraging you to take. And so that's what my chapter is in that book. April of the year that it came out, we did hit the Amazon bestseller list with that book at the time. And it's been a great book. And I use it more of a as a calling card and as an introduction to myself when I'm meeting new people. Joe: And then you mentioned earlier about a book that you wrote that I did not actually see in my notes. So can you tell me about that? Right. Was Brian: Ok, Joe: There. Brian: I've written three books. Joe: Ok. Brian: The first book is called Ready, Set Succeed, which is a self published book. Again, it was another compilation with a series of different authors. And I've got several boxes of those still today that, again, I use them as is handouts. And it's, again, about taking action because again, that's what I saw people struggle with and implementation because again, at the end of the day, it's ready, set, succeed, go. You've got to get moving. And so we were all writing the chapter based upon that. It was a self published book. The only way that you can get that is to go through me to get that I'm aware of. And I actually did have a client come to me through that book for one of the other offers. They got it. They called me up and that chapter resonated with them. And it was an opportunity for me to help them out. Then we wrote The Abundance Factor, and then after that we wrote a book called Unleash Your Fear. And that book is available right now. You can go to unleash your fear dot com and get a copy of that. Right now, at this point in time, it is about a 40 page e-book. You can get a copy were actually read it to you for in about an hour. Brian: But that's one of our projects for the rest of this year, is to work on rewriting that book and expanding it to where it's around a hundred pages and we turn it into a physical book and using that as a methodology to share that message. Because as we've gone back and we've we've shared that message, we teach in a very powerful concept in that book about the relationship that people have with fear, because right now most people have a lousy relationship with fear. But fear is just a tool that's used by our subconscious. And our subconscious causes us problems because it's designed not to make us happy. It's not designed to make us successful. It's designed to make us survive. Problem is, when we do go out there, when we want to grow, when we want to succeed and we want more, it sees that as not surviving. That's risky. There's pain out there if we pursue those things. So how do we how do we change that? How do we work on that? That's what I've understood from the people that have read the book, that a lot of people enjoyed it and you can actually still get it for free for a little bit longer. Brian: We're in the process of getting that changed. You can go to unleash your fear Dotcom and get a copy of that book there. And once we get the expanded version, we will still be using that. You are all along the way. And so in this process, we've got a lot of great tools that are available to you. And we've talked about a lot. Joe, you're actually one of the longer podcasts that I've gone on and we've talked about a lot of different things. But one thing we haven't talked about is one of the foundations that I used for my coaching, which I refer to as the Five Keys of Success. And that's actually a podcast that I do called the Five Keys of Success podcast. And you can go out there to wherever you get your podcasts and Google five Keys successor Brian Lovegrove, and you'll be able to find it. And I talk about those five keys, because at the end of the day, because, again, I've been doing personal development for decades now. And so I boiled down all of that stuff to what is the true fundamental foundational skills and tools you need. And I came up with those five keys. You want to know what those five keys Joe: I Brian: Are? Joe: Do, I have actually you were not going to get off this podcast without talking about it, so I have them here. I still have other stuff. That's why I like that. Yes. So please, I totally want to these this is like one of the things that really triggered it. When I wanted to have you on as a guest, I'm like, man, I want to know what those are. Brian: Well, the five keys of success, the first key is clarity, and I refer to it as get clear because without clarity, you're lost, you're wandering around in a fog. If you don't have a destination, you're never going to be able to get there. And if you don't know where you are, how do you know how you're going to go from where you are to where you want to go? And we talked about the plan. If you are not clear on the plan on how to achieve your goal, you're not going to get there now. But there's some also challenges with that piece because, again, a lot of people may not necessarily know how to get to that point, but do you know how to get started? Because that's the key. Do you know what the next step is? How many people get bogged down with steps? Nine hundred and eighty seven through steps. Twelve hundred and eighty four. Well, what steps do you want? I'm on step five. What step six. I don't know. Focus on step six, seven, eight, nine. OK, focus on what's in front of you and these other steps you will figure out by the time you get to that point. The second key is commitment because without commitment we cave in to the fear. We don't have the motivation, the energy and the power to keep going when things get. And the analogy that I love to use is the story about Cortez. When he landed in The New World, he burned his boats. His men woke up the next morning and they went in. He addresses many gentlemen. There is no way home that we do not create for ourselves. And so his small band took on and conquered much larger nations and groups of people in South America because they were committed to making it happen because it was either do or die. Joe: I'm a big fan of burning the boats, by the way. Brian: Absolutely, that's one of the podcasts that we did, is, OK, how do you burn the boats? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And we kind of walk through that exercise and that's that can be a whole coaching process. My story around that was I used to weigh two hundred and sixty pounds and I went on a diet and I lost thirty five pounds in the first month and a half. It was a radical diet. And one of the things that I did on the back deck in the fire pit is I burn my fat jeans and I actually have a picture of you. It's it's at night. You can all you can really see the flames. You can barely make out the jeans as part of the picture. But I vividly remember that process. And I promised myself I would never buy that size pair of clothes ever again. Now, have I been able to keep off all the weight that I lost? No. But when my pants get tight, that option is not there. Joe: Yeah. Brian: It's like, OK, we got to do something, we got to turn this around because we are not buying a bigger sized pair of pants. And so, again, that's where that burning the boats actually comes in, which leads us to step three, which is get crankin or get busy taking action. Money talks about taking massive action. And, you know, how many times have I you know, I've tried everything. Really? How many times have you tried? What have you tried? A hundred things.

https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/qf9pbj/IAJ_JoeEppers_040621.mp3 Stewart: This is The Insurance AUM Journal Podcast. We are standing with you at the corner of insurance and asset management. My name is Stewart Foley. And today, Joe Eppers is in the house, CIO of Selective Insurance. Welcome, Joe. Joe: Thanks, Stewart. It’s great to be here and it’s great to be in […]

If you look at all the bad habits that you've been trying to stop for a decade they all have one thing in common: They are all things you're telling yourself you SHOULD stop doing. What if thinking you “should” is what keeps you stuck? And what if getting in touch with your wants, in a deep way, is the quickest way to get you unstuck?"The want is that very simple impulse that is moving us, that moves us to have a closer relationship with our loved ones. It is a constant pull that leads us all the way down the developmental line. If we allow it, it will take us all the way to freedom."If you look at all of the bad habits you have been trying to stop for a decade, you will find they all have one thing in common. They are all things you are telling yourself you should stop doing. The same is likely true for the things you tell yourself you should be doing more of, finishing a project, going to the gym, calling your mom. What if thinking you should is what keeps you stuck? What if getting in touch with your wants in a deep way is the quickest way to get unstuck? Let's get to the bottom of this. Brett: Joe, I would think this is pretty obvious, but you usually have a unique definition of things. What exactly do you mean by should?Joe: Should is really a mechanism of shame. It is. There's a saying that says that shame is the locks that keep the chains of bad habits in place. Should is like a really bad management technique. Energetically, it's oppressive. Intellectually, it's control-based. Emotionally, it's rigidity and neurologically, it's a threat. If you say to somebody, "You should really do that," there is a threat in that. What's interesting is, that same energy really doesn't happen in certain cultures. When you see, particularly, more indigenous cultures that I've been a part of and seeing that whole should telling people thing just doesn't happen, at least energetically, it doesn't happen. When I mean energetically, I don't mean energetically in a spiritual new age way. I just literally mean the energy in which you are talking to the person. That's what I think it is. You're right. They are the things that keep your bad habits in place. Shoulds are just really ineffective. I'll tell you the story where I learned this. I was like 26 years old and I decided I was going to be brutally honest with myself. I wrote down a list of everything about myself that I didn't want to admit to myself. Then I folded it away and I put it away and I found it like six months, maybe a year later. I went through the list  and I was like, "How many of these things have changed?" Remarkably, most of them had. I was like, "Wow, that's amazing. I did nothing and they just changed," just the recognition of them changed, awareness changed them.Then I looked through all the ones that hadn't changed and to a tee, each single one of them had a very heavy should attached to it. That's when I started to realize that this way of managing ourselves by telling ourselves we should do things is just really ineffective.Brett: To keep it simple around the definition of should, we're talking about the moment that we tell ourselves that we should do something.Joe: Well-- the voice in the head will tell you that you should do something and that's the most obvious thing, but there's also an energetic should that happens. It's almost a muscular response or a neurological response to something and it doesn't always have to have the verbal, "You should do this." You could just reach for the double flourless chocolate cake and you'll just feel that "er" inside of you and that is just a nonverbal should. I think it's really important to see it as both.Brett: What's wrong with controlling ourselves in this way? If these shoulds are pointing us towards the things that we want or don't want to be doing, what's causing that to get in the way?Joe: It's because you've put an extra layer on it. If you're just in the wants, it's an amazing fluid thing. Then when it gets into the shoulds, it creates the threat, like I said and a rigidity. As an example, if I try to control a two-year-old and I have that energy of like "rah", “You will do this, you should do this”. There's one of two responses that happen in any human. If I did it to you right now, "Hey, you should speak differently on this podcast." It immediately creates one of two things in you. Let's do it for the audience here. "You should be listening to this podcast better. You are not paying close enough attention."If I'm treating you like that, there's one of two responses. One of those responses is going to be rebellion. There's just something innate that's like "er". No response. That's not a really effective way to create anything. It's just creating no's. The other thing that it does is you're like, "Oh, you're right, I should." It's this submission. It's not surrender. It's submission. It's like, "I am weak and I will just do what you say." Then you've got a whole bunch of disempowered people and that doesn't really help much either. Especially if you're in a company, you want a company full of empowered people or you want a community full of empowered people, or you want yourself to feel empowered. Every time you're using the should, what's happening is that you are either creating your own internal rebellion, which is why you haven't done the things you've been telling yourself you should do for decades, because you're rebelling against it. Or you're creating a disempowered situation inside yourself. You're creating more of a victim mentality to this voice in your head that's being abusive.Brett: Interesting. What I notice about myself is, that when I think about not telling myself what I should do or shouldn't do anymore, there becomes this fear that I'll just become lazy or some couch potato and I just won't do the things that I should do as I use that word.Joe: [chuckles] Totally, exactly.Brett: What's your response to that? What happens if we stop doing the should, if we stop setting out a path for what we want from ourselves from a perspective of being conscious of the risks and the threats?Joe: Great questions. This is that inherent goodness thing that we've spoken about before, which is basically-- the idea is that you are a lazy slob, piece of shit, just going to pick your ass and live off of other people unless you tell yourself you should do something. You know what I mean? Could you imagine if you thought about somebody else that way? Unless I tell Joe that he should do a podcast, he's just never going to fricking do it. I got to tell him he should do it. It's a nonsensical thing to really think like, "Here I am doing this podcast. Nobody told me I should do it. I wanted to do it." If you think about kids from zero to eight years old, there's no internal should. They're doing all sorts, they're developing crazy amounts compared to any other time in life. They're learning all sorts of things. It's all just because they're following their wants. On one level, that's a really important thing to note. On the other hand, you actually may become a couch potato for a while, which sounds a little weird. The thing is, if you have been under threat for an extended period of time, there's going to be a need to relax. There's going to be a need to recover. If you're going cold turkey on your shoulds, you might actually just need to slow down for a bit. It's not going to be a couch potato. The couch potato thing happens when you burn out and then you tell yourself you shouldn't be burning out. You should stop playing video games. You should stop laying on the couch. You should stop. You should stop. You should stop. Then you really will go into full couch potato mode. If the natural burnout happens with the should, then it looks like depression. There might be a time where you need some more rest, where you need to recover. You see this happen in schools all the time, when there's this thing called unlearning or un-schooling or something like that, where kids are taken out of the school that have burnt out. They take like five or six months and do very little. Then all of a sudden, they learn three or four times as quickly as they were in school. There's lots of studies on this. You're basically saying, "If I don't put myself under threat of a should, if I don't tell myself that I'm bad if I don't, then I won't." It's just not my experience at all. My experience is that the people who are most generative in their life are people who want to do shit, not who feel like they should do.Brett: It sounds like it takes time to shift paradigms of thinking. This reminds me a little bit of a thought experiment--Joe: Hold on a second. That may be true. That may not be true. Don't assume that one though, at least for people listening. For me, turning off the shoulds in the voice in my head was very quick. It didn't take a tremendous amount of time. Once I really just understood, "Oh, this shit doesn't work." If you know that you have a screw gun and every time you use the screw gun it strips screws, you're pretty much not going to use that screw gun. It's not going to take a lot of time to figure that out. If you start telling yourself you should stop using shoulds, it could take years.Brett: That makes sense. This reminds me of the thought experiment of having the voice in your head be a roommate. If you were to go to talk to somebody like a roommate or a friend and they were the person that's just going to tell you what you should do, versus the kind of person that helps you find what you want, then you might either stop going to that person, because it doesn't feel like you're really getting helped, or you might become dependent on them telling what you should do.Joe: Most humans would just move out. Some of us are engineered or programmed to give up our own empowerment for a person like that. That's right. Most of us who had a boss who spoke to us like that should voice in our head, we would quit or we would be miserable. If that “should voice” in your head is really strong and really loud, there is a strong case that you're miserable, whether you see it or not.Brett: As we release ourselves from the oppression of these shoulds and we start listening to what we want and trusting that our wants are inherently good and healthy for us-- let's get into the wants side of this then. How would you define wants?Joe: The want is just that impulse that moves through you, that animates your actions. That is what the want is. The should is just this egoic layer on top of it that slows the whole thing down. Let me explain. You're sitting and you think to yourself, "I should exercise." What's actually happening is there's an impulse and a want to exercise and it shows up. Instead of just like, "Oh, cool," and doing 10 jumping jacks, you say to yourself, "I should go to the gym." Then that just destroys your chances of actually working out or at least very much lowers your chances of working out.The want is just that very simple impulse that's moving us, that moves that eight-year-old, that five-year-old, that three-year-old. It moves the toddler to walk better. It moves the crawler to toddle. It moves us to speak. It moves us to have a closer relationship with our loved ones. It is a constant pull that leads us all the way down the developmental line. If we allow it, it'll take us all the way to awakenings and freedom.Brett: What if I'm listening to my want and my want is to have a big piece of chocolate cake?Joe: That's a really good question. There's one other piece that I think is really important to explain. The thing is that wants are somatically expansive. They're intellectually empowering. The want is very different, if you attach to it or if you don't attach to it. If you attach to, let's say, having that girlfriend Jennifer, then you're in craving, which is different than want. The want is just that impulse. It's just that empowering expansive impulse. If you look at the cake and you're in that empowering expansive place, that's very different, than the way most people want a cake, what they think is wanting a cake, which either this struggle, "I want it, but I don't want it. I want it. I don't want it. I want it. I don't want it." That's not a clean want. There's still some refinement that needs to go there or there's just that unconscious shoving the cake in their mouth and calling it a want. The want is something that feels very expansive. If you look at something like a chocolate cake and it feels very expansive to sit and eat that thing, then yes, follow the want. Because the thing about the wants in general is that you have to follow them to deepen into them. What that means is you want to follow the chocolate cake because you want to have this sense of pleasure. Great, have the sense of pleasure. Then you start finding out what the deeper sense pleasures are.You follow that want home and you find out it has seven more beautiful siblings. If the want is clean, it doesn't matter if it's a short-term or a long-term-- healthy in your mind and your superego, it's far more about allowing that movement, so you can find the next step. You can't want to run unless you've wanted to learn how to walk. You have to actually get to the walking point to have an effective  next level of want. That's how it works is that the wants move us. A toddler, they just want to walk and walk well. Maybe as a toddler, you want to run, but then you can want to play baseball and then you can want to play basketball and then you can want to play basketball really, really well.It's the same thing with our wants. When we start really getting in touch with our wants, then they really transform. For example, the want is, “I want a million dollars” and there's some shame with that and so it's not a clear impulse. Then we're like, "What is that clear impulse?" It's like, "Oh, I want to be empowered."Brett: That sounds very relevant to a career path as well. I heard a story recently from a friend who's a lawyer. Halfway through their first semester, they were like, "Okay, I'm not going to do this. I don't want to be a lawyer. This sucks." The experience was they were like, "These are all the things that I have to do to get to where this path is supposed to put me and it doesn't look fun at all." This person described that they simply stopped caring about what they were supposed to be doing and they started paying attention to what they actually wanted. They were like, "Actually, there's all things that I want to be doing that I could do if I was enabled with this law degree."They started just making it theirs. They took all the classes they wanted, that nobody else was taking and ended up on some trends that they were ahead of their game on or ahead of the trend on as a result of following the way they wanted to be a lawyer and they ended up really loving their career. Joe: That's exactly right. If you're doing your shoulds and you're basically following rigidity, you're following a tightness and you're going to have that kind of tight life. You're going to have a very rigid life. If you're following your wants, your life becomes much more expansive.Brett: I liked what you had been saying about craving as well. It sounds like craving is distinct from wants. Craving is a want that you don't want. It feels like a want, but you really don't want it.Joe: [laughs] Yes, there's a thing about the want. If you just take the want viscerally and you don't try to get there, you don't try to get to the end, if you just take the want viscerally, you can feel it. Let's do this for a second. If you close your eyes and you feel a really deep want inside of you, you have a deep one, not a superficial one, but a very deep one, maybe a want for a deeper form of intimacy or a want for a more expansive consciousness, or a want for more love in your life. You feel that want and you take it in and you don't worry about whether you can get it or not. You don't even think about how to get it. You just feel what it is to want.Wanting is just a feeling like anger or sadness. Just allow that feeling in your system without trying to get to the goal. That experience is really pleasant. It's really quite lovely. To me, the way it works in my system is, it is one of the closest feelings to love, to allow a desire deeply inside of you. I think it's why so many of the the Sufi poets, they talk about desire in this way that they just love desire. This longing-- because that longing is so close to love. It's so close to that expansive acceptance of everything. That's what wanting is. “Now I got to get it. How do I get it? Why can't I get it?” That's craving and that's painful as shit.Brett: This reminds me of a lot of different spiritual traditions that tell us, that craving is a hindrance to freedom. For example, Buddhism's principle of non-attachment or Christianity's warnings about the desires of the flesh. Is that what they mean?Joe: There's those spiritual traditions and then there's the tantric spiritual traditions. People think that they're at odds, but they're really not at odds at all. What's happening there is that people have been beaten out of their wants and so they start turning cravings into an excuse not to want to not allow themselves to want anymore. If you're really deeply closely looking into your own personal experience, the craving is the thing that they're talking about and the wanting, the desire that the Sufis are talking about, the tantric people are talking about, is, there are two different things that are happening inside of your system.Brett: It's interesting. The exercise that we just did about the wanting-- for myself, I was thinking about having a healthy body and being fit and having strength. In feeling the wanting, I was imagining moving my body and having range of motion, flexibility and strength. The moment I started trying to figure out how I was going to get there, then all of a sudden it turned into "Oh, but I'd have to work out." Suddenly, the working out feels like a chore. The actual wanting of being healthy, the way that I was imagining that was actually working out, was the equivalent of moving and using my body.Joe: Exactly. If you just stick with that as a daily practice, how do I want to be in my body right now? Thirty minutes of how do I want to be in my body right now would get you exactly where you want to be in your body. How much more appealing is that? I have to work out today or, “How do I want to be in my body for 30 minutes?” It seems like it's almost no different and it's like worlds and worlds apart.Brett: Let's get this into the context of business and achievement. A tremendous amount of successful executives are deeply attached to winning and succeeding and it seems to be working well for them in many regards. How would you factor that into this?Joe: There's people who tell themselves they should do stuff. Apparently they're pretty successful at it or they're deeply attached. They have a deep craving and they're successful at getting their cravings met. For me, it's pretty simple. There is the intention which is critical. I'm not suggesting to drop all intention in life. We have our intention, we have that want, we have the impulse and that's a really, really important thing. It gives us a north star. It gives us a heading that we move down. To hold that intention is absolutely completely important to getting stuff done in the world of accomplishing stuff in the world. Being attached to succeeding is absolutely a fine way to succeed. It's not the most efficient way to succeed. It is not the most enjoyable way to succeed, but it is absolutely a fine way to succeed. You can really, really get attached to something. You can work at it and you can get there. In fact, it's really important to have some of that if you're going to get anywhere in life and that's the intention. You can have that intention without that craving, without that deep attachment. If you don't have it, you're lucky to get anywhere. That intention is really quite important. If you're going to put attachment on top of that intention, on top of that want, then you are dragging. Then you are like throwing an anchor out and sailing across the ocean with your anchor out. It is not going to be the most effective. The real thing is that intention, like, "What is the context of it? What's the way that you make it most enjoyable? Let me give you an example. If I look at every single CEO that I know who has been very, very successful, their intention wasn't to make money. They weren't attached to making money. What they were attached to was being the best or beating their competition, or reducing carbon in the world, or being the best at customer service. They had some intention, that was past this intention of just succeeding. Their attachment was beyond succeeding. Because if you're just attached to the succeeding part, it's a lot more difficult. If succeeding is something that you have to do to get to the part that you're attached to, then it's easier. The attachment isn't the most efficient way to get to where you want to go, to have that strong attachment. It's definitely not the most enjoyable way to get to where you want to go, but the intention, absolutely critical. Does that make sense?Brett: Yes, totally. It seems like having the intention versus having the attachment to success, the intention makes it easier to pivot. If your intention is to build a company or build a product that reduces carbon in the world, there are many ways to do that. You could start out with one idea of doing it and discover that there's different ways of doing it. One of them just isn't working in the market. It seems like it would be easier to get out of the local optimum or maybe you just have to let go of what you are doing and start something new, which is just really common in any any business endeavor, this idea of pivoting and flowing with reality. If you're really attached to the particular success, then you might be more resistant to make changes, that seem in the short-term to lead away from your goal of success.Joe: That's right. You have your intention out there. That's where you know which way you're going. We'll call that like the goal or the want. That intention is what's moving you in the direction. Then you can have different attitudes towards that goal, towards that want. The attitude could become a should, the attitude could be, "I'm scared of getting to the goal. I'm angry that I don't haven't gotten to the goal. I have absolute faith that I will be there." All of those ways are different attitudes towards having that goal. You're not going to get there without the goal. The most efficient attitude to get to the goal is to be in the want of it, not the should of it. It is to be in the enjoyment of it, not the rigidity of it. That's the more efficient way to get there and to be beyond the goal itself. It's that the goal of succeeding is really just a necessary step to get to your deeper goal.Brett: Give me some more examples of holding an intention without the should.Joe: You're running a company and you have a revenue goal of $100 million. You can hold that as, "I should get to $100 million". You can hold that goal as, "I want to get to $100 million." You can hold that goal as, "I will get to $100 million." You can hold that goal as, "I can't wait until I get to $100 million." The way you hold that goal is going to affect how much energy you have. It's going to affect how rigid you are in it. It's going to affect your ability to be flexible. Then the second level of it is choosing that goal as far as whether you're going to make that the easy goal or the long-term goal. Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, just to get a $100 million?" Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, so that I can build a spaceship to get to Mars"? Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, so I can beat the competition"? All of those things are important. It's not the intention or the goal. It is how you approach the goal, how you attach to the goal, the relationship you have with the goal. That's the important piece for efficiency and enjoyment.Brett: Feeling like you should be doing this prescriptive path towards the goal is controlling yourself with threat, essentially.Joe: Correct, that's right. It could work short-term, but it's definitely not going to work long-term.Brett: What makes it that we don't see the inefficiency of our shoulds when we're in them? If it is the case that everything that we don't do in life that we want to do and everything that we do do that we want to stop doing is all locked in place by these shoulds, what makes it so opaque to us?Joe: It's a shame situation. The way that you can look at it is even if you take it up a level for a second, what's the important thing about having the intention? What's the important thing about having the goal? It tells you what questions to ask. If I say to you, "You need to start a company and that company needs to sell widgets to 10 people," then you're going to ask questions to get to that goal. But if I say, "You need to sell widgets to a hundred million people, you're going to ask different questions." You're going to say, "Maybe I have to think about venture capital. Maybe I have to think about private equity. Maybe I have to think about distribution at that scale," that you're not going to have to think about it if you're selling 10 widgets.The goal is important, because it very, very much helps us determine what questions to ask. That's why goals are so important, but what most people do is they put some shame into those goals, tell them they should reach the goals, not that they want to, not that they can, but that they should reach the goals and then all of a sudden those goals become a burden. They become like, "Oh, if I don't do that, I'm bad." That's what makes it hard for us to see the shoulds is, that it makes us think that we're bad. The should makes us think that we're bad and if we think that we're bad, it's very hard to see what actually motivates us. It's the same thing like in wars. If two countries are warring with each other and that whole war has to depend on people thinking the other side is bad. If people look up and say, "You know what, they're just people. We're just people. We're just both trying to get along," the war's going to stop. To have that internal war of should means that you have to think you're bad and that's what makes it so hard to see through the should, to see through the war. What's really strange about it is, that you can see it from a manager 10 miles away. You're sitting there and you see a manager like "You should, you should, you should." You're like, "Oh my God, that's not going to work." That's horribly ineffective. There's been hundreds of management books saying, "Don't do that because it doesn't fricking work," and psychological studies, but we'll do it to ourselves all fricking day long. We will recognize it outside, but we won't recognize it inside.Brett: It's as if the moment we say we should be doing something, the structure of that should is to flatten all of our wants to go do that one thing, because we've prioritized it. If we are routinely doing that thing where we're suppressing our wants to do the thing we should do, then we can't hear or feel our wants anymore.Joe: That's right. The wants, for many of us, are very scary. It's a very scary thing to have a want, because we were taught at a young age not to have wants. We don't have that want because mom won't be happy. You don't have that want because you won't be codependent with that. You don't have that want because blah, blah, blah. A lot of people are told to disassociate from their wants. They're not taught that their wants are amazingly beautiful things, that can guide them in their entire life.Brett: Let's talk more about that. What makes wanting so vilified in our society?Joe: My experience is, that there's a pain that we feel from being rejected in our wants. It's like a deep level of rejection. We're all kind of school kids that got deeply rejected when we asked someone out on a date and so we're hesitant to do it again. Because our wants are this deeply intimate thing, this very vulnerable thing. They are at the core of us. If they've been rejected, we don't want to feel that rejection again. I think that's the internal process. Externally, if you have a whole bunch of people who are codependent or a whole bunch of people, who were told that they were selfish as kids, which really, if you're told that you were selfish as a kid, that really just means that you weren't doing what your mom and dad wanted you to do. If you were told that, then having somebody own their wants is very uncomfortable for you. There's this external world that is uncomfortable with people owning their wants. There's also this external world of people who just can't wait for that person to be owning their wants some more. It's like rock and roll. Back in the day, rock and roll was there. There's these people who shut up and they're like, "I'm going to get whatever I want. I want to do this and do that." There was this group of people were like, "Yes." There was a group of people like, "Devil." That's how it works when you're really owning your wants, especially the earlier wants. The later wants start to refine and start to become more and more beautiful. Then it's a little bit less likely to happen. We all start with the early wants and to own them gets a certain level of rejection, because other people would have to feel their own wants. The thing about wants in general is that it's our human nature to want. You can play this game with friends and after every sentence, just say what it is that you wanted to get out of that sentence.  You will find a want in every single sentence that you speak. Right now, I want to have you guys understand what I'm saying. Right now, I want you to taste the deep pleasure of wanting. There's always this conscious want behind almost every sentence we have, it's such a part of our human nature. We cannot get away from it. All we can do is own it or we can sublimate it. Should is just a way of sublimating it, which is why it doesn't work as effectively.Brett: I'm going to say something right now because I want to participate in this podcast and feel relevant.Joe: [laughs] I want to respond so that you know that I love you and I care for you.Brett: I want to end the pregnant pause. [both laugh] A lot of what you were saying about the societal aspect is that it's uncomfortable for people to feel their wants. Part of what it is, is people have a problem seeing other people want what they want, because that makes them feel the pain of their own wants. The pain of our own wants seems to be linked to something we've discussed on some other episodes, the consequences of wanting, the potential consequence. If I want something, I might not get it, I might have to feel disappointment. I might be judged. I might break this cozy structure of this job that I'm in or this relationship that I'm in, because my wants feel incongruent with that.Joe: The interesting thing about that in general is, that not getting our wants met is not actually as scary as we want or pop psychology would say that it is, because we all have a dozen wants that we haven't had met. It doesn't devastate us all the time. How many people listening to this podcast want to have $10 million more in the bank? it hasn't happened. Didn't devastate any of us. I think it's the exposure, the vulnerability of showing your want and having it rejected. That's the deeper scare.Brett: Admitting that you want $10 million in the bank and people judging you for that, greedy.Joe: Exactly. The amazing thing is when you totally own a want, oftentimes the want goes away almost immediately. I really want $10 million in the bank. If you fully feel that all the way and you're just like, "Oh, yes, $10 million," just feel that want. Oftentimes, it just starts shifting. It's just like, "Oh, what I want is security." Then it's like, "Oh, what I really want is to feel empowered in every situation." If you don't allow yourself to have the want, it can't move through you. It's just like, if you don't allow yourself to get angry, it can't move through you. If you don't allow yourself to get sad, it can't move through you. It's just another emotion that needs to move through you and is so pleasant when it does.Brett: It sounds like on one level, you're saying that it is an impulse and on another level, you're saying it's an emotion. Can you get into that distinction a little bit more?Joe: That's a great question. Let me feel inside for a moment and really see what the distinction is there. It seems like there's this impulse that moves. The way it's working in my system is, there's this impulse to move, to say these words, to be in front of my computer right now, to answer your question. There's this natural impulse. If that impulse meets any friction, then this emotional experience of wanting starts to occur. As this emotional experience of wanting starts to occur, that becomes the feeling. That's the feeling that's there.If I fully feel the feeling, the friction starts to fade. There's the impulse side of the wanting and then there's also the emotional side of the wanting. It's what distinguishes,  “I'm just going to walk to the bathroom right now” and there's no experience of wanting in that process, because there's no friction met. As soon as that impulse meets any level of friction, then there's this experience of wanting. If you fully feel that experience, it turns deeply into a loving expansive experience and then that friction starts to go away.Brett: I want to hear one more story from you, a personal story relevant to how you arrived at all of this.Joe: I'd be happy to share a story, Brett. It's a story of shoulds and wants. When I was earlier in my venture capital career, I had this idea that I really should be making money. It was foreign to me because it wasn't something that was really ever important to me before. It was a combination of a feeling of indebtedness to the investors and also doing a good job and being valuable, but the shoulds started appearing in my life at that point. Then I was sitting in a hammock and I read this news at some point. I remember the time specifically. I read this news, that this company that was formed with almost no money sold for multi billions of dollars and it felt like just an absolute kick in my stomach, just like a whack in my stomach. I stopped and I went, "Oh, where did I feel that for the first time?" I traced it back, not intellectually, but like my entire body traced back that feeling to the first time I felt it. The first time I felt it was trying to please my father as a kid and it was like, "Oh," and it was not pleasable at that time. To please him, at least from my point of view, wasn't possible. I saw that this whole money making activity had nothing to do with actually making money and the should behind it had nothing to do with it. It was this very early should that I had of I should be pleasing my father. That was a very ingrained should. It was at that moment that I was like, "Okay, hold on a second. This doesn't have anything to do with money and it's a should. What do I want? What I really want to do here?" What I realized is, I just wanted to create great cultures for people. I want it to be a part of creating great cultures for people to work in. That changed everything. It changed my approach. It changed my ability to be effective. It just changed everything as soon as I just moved from the should that was driven by an early feeling to a want, which was very present and it was just very immediate. All of a sudden, everything started to open up and flourish in my life in a new way.Brett: Wow, thank you. How do you want to end this?Joe: I want to express a deep gratitude for everybody who's listening, who's dedicated to understanding themselves, who honors me by choosing to be here as part of this experience. My deepest want is a very deep bow to everybody who's listening and to say that I wouldn't be here without people who were bowing to me. I am grateful to be bowing to you. My deep hope is, that you will bow to the people who appear before you.Brett: Joe, thank you for taking the time to help all of us build our culture internally and in our companies.Joe: Thanks for doing the work, man. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com

Convenience is king. Everyone wants the easiest experience possible, but, they also expect that experience to be seamless and delightful at the same time. When it comes to shopping, ecommerce has been able to bring all those elements together better than in-store retailers. But even though brick and mortar retailers are facing an uphill battle, Joe Jensen believes that they aren’t going anywhere, and there are still massive innovations to be seen to make a more cohesive experience. Joe is a vice president in the Internet of Things Group and the general manager of the Retail, Banking, Hospitality and Education Group at Intel. He is helping brands across all industries and of all sizes become more nimble and data-centric. According to Joe, there are simple changes retailers can implement to solve big problems so long as you’re asking the right questions.. Like, what if you could solve all of your inventory issues with a simple technology that has already been in existence for years? And how can brands leverage in-store experiences as more of an enhancement to customers who typically enjoy online shopping but crave something more in-person?On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Joe answers those questions and more. Plus, he explains how and why traditional retailers should be utilizing more data just like their ecommerce competitors, and he gives a first look into the technologies that will be making an impact on the future of retail.   Main Takeaways:Curation is the Cure: The role of retail is changing, and the retailers who lean into curated experiences will be able to better meet the new expectations of consumers. Rather than offering a little bit of everything, stores will want to give customers a deep dive into a specific brand experience, because that is what they crave when they are shopping offline.Bring On The Data: When digitally-native businesses start to open brick-and-mortar locations, they insist on having as much data captured as possible about the customers who enter their stores. Traditional retailers don’t want or feel they need the data simply because they’ve never used it before. But the nimble retailers that use all the data at their disposal will be the ones to win even against their data-heavy, digitally-native competition.Incoming Technology: From computer vision to full RFID implementation, technology is going to change the way shopping happens for both the customer and the business. But, don’t expect these changes too quickly. Despite the fact that using RFID technology would solve nearly all inventory issues, many brands are hesitant to implement that wholesale change. Why is that? And what will be the catalyst to finally change? Tune in to find out.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Joe Jensen, vice president and general manager of Retail Banking, Hospitality and Education Business at Intel. Joe, how's it going?Joe:Oh, fantastic. Beautiful day here in Phoenix.Stephanie:Good. Yeah, I'm glad to hear it. That is a mouth full title, but I feel like you deserve it when you've been somewhere for 36 years, I saw?Joe:Isn't that scary. I didn't even think I'm 36 years old, so it's weird.Stephanie:That's amazing, actually. I want to just start there. Tell me how did your journey begin at Intel and what are you doing today? What's your day to day look like now versus 36 years ago?Joe:Well, I started as a product development engineer at Intel, and I worked in a bunch of different product disciplines as an engineer. My original life plan was really to leave Intel at about year 10 and go to a startup, but by year 10, Intel stock options were so attractive that I ended up being so that fully handcuffed into the company.Stephanie:Yeah. As with most tech companies, I was this close to staying at Google for the same reason. I'm like, "Oh, it's hard to leave. I see my options vesting in year three and five and seven," and you can just extrapolate it out and it'll keep you there. But it's good-Joe:I shifted from engineering to the business side in about year seven, and I've done a ton of different business startups in the company. I think one of the things I'm most proud of, I've started three businesses that were at zero and have hit over 500 million a year.Stephanie:Oh, wow. So what are the businesses that you've worked on?Joe:Two different ones in an embedded space, and then now the Retail Banking, Hospitality. Education is added into that, but that business started, gosh, it started at single digit millions and we grew it to, well, we're the largest business within the IoT space in Intel I can say.Stephanie:That's cool. So tell me a bit about when you're saying IoT, and then retail banking, now education, how do I imagine what you guys are doing for your partners? What are you providing them? What does that look like?Joe:In our space, the IoT space for Intel is really where IT for an enterprise meets the real world. So in the case of retail, it could be digital signs, point of sales systems, inventory management, building management, time clocks, any system that might be connecting into IT. If you go into the manufacturing side, which is in my space, the manufacturing units, it's where equipment data flows in off of manufacturing side flows into the enterprise.Stephanie:And how many opportunities are being missed right now by not implementing? I would say data analytics like you're talking about. When it comes to inventory I know that Walmart for a while was trying to figure out how to track out of stock issues and it was really hard even when they had the cameras going around the lanes because they couldn't see behind what was in front of it. I don't know if they figured it out yet, maybe you know better than me, but what opportunities are being missed by not having this implemented into retail stores?Joe:As an engineer, I really think about root cause and what's the underlying problem, and we really believe that inventory inaccuracy is one of the underlying problems in physical retail. The problem we have is if customer can't find it in the store, it's out of stock. It doesn't matter if it's in the backroom, doesn't matter if it's hidden behind some items on the shelf, it doesn't matter if it's misplaced. If the customer can't find it, it's out of stock. We have data and research that shows that 1% of customers who experience an out of stock will go through the whole journey of they search on the shelf for it, they go track down a staff person to go find it, they dig through the rack or they don't find it. They say, "Hey, hold on. Let me go check in the back." They go look in the back and then come out and then maybe they go to the POS and they look to see if another store has it, or they'll ship it to your house. 1% of the shoppers are that patient.Stephanie:That's me. I'm that 1%. I did that the other day at Pottery Barn. But then I was very upset at the end because I was like, just like what you said, let me look in the back. Not there. Let me look at our partner stores. Not there. Let me look online. Ooh, it's not the size you want. And at the end I'm like, "Ugh. Okay, goodbye. I never want to come back again." I love Pottery Barn, but.Joe:Talk about a study that showed that if a customer experiences that out of stock frustration five times in a store, they stopped going.Stephanie:Yeah, I can see that. So how do you go about solving something like that to get all your systems on top?Joe:It's really tough. I still think RFID is going to play a key role. Japan has a huge labor shortage problem. They just said because of the aging of their population, they don't have enough labor, and the government decided four or five years ago to put a big push on RFID, and they're mandating by 2025, all consumer goods that are sold in China have to come from the manufacturer RFID tagged. They've also funded a kind of research-Stephanie:And that essentially keeps everything inventoried, right? Then you don't have staff to work.Joe:Yes. What happens is you don't even need staff to check out now because consumers will put their items in a basket, step the basket on the checkouts, and it'll read all the tags and then we'll just pay and go.Stephanie:So it's like the Amazon Go store where they're experimenting with, but I don't know whatever actually happened to that. I went into one in Seattle maybe two years ago, but are they still around? What happened with the Amazon stores like that?Joe:They're still running. They do a tremendous amount of business. I don't know how much of it's because of convenience and how much of it is the novelty. I suspect that they're augmenting a lot of that with human capital behind the scenes. I do think that you're going to find retail bifurcating into two types of retail. You're going to see the hyper-convenient side, which is you just want to take all the friction out. How do I take all the hassle? How do I take all the friction out for the shopper? And I think for staples day to day things, you want to go pick up fast food, fast food should be fast. I won't throw the chain under the bus, but there's a new location near our house, and I swear there's a three-hour wait all day, every day.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Joe:Fast food just isn't that good for me. I'm not going to wait in line for three hours to get my fast food. And so I think on the hyper-convenient side, that's a big part of retail. Then on the other side, we're calling hyper experience. With hyper experience, shopping is an enjoyment and a pastime for a lot of people. And during the pandemic, obviously you can't go to the mall. You can't go shopping like you used to, but that will come back, and that you want to go and get experiences. You don't want to go to department store A and then walk down the mall to the department store B. And if you close your eyes when you walked in, you wouldn't know which store you're in.Joe:Now, if they all have the same assortment, they all have the same brands, they all have the same brand micro stores inside their department store, what's the experience that you're delivering to the consumer? If you go try to find a piece of clothing and it's out of stock, how's that experience? That's not a very good experience. So yeah, it's funny. I had one of my engineers in China explaining how he really has everything delivered. All his groceries, all his food. China is just hyper convenient from that perspective. It's cool and I love it.Stephanie:But they're used to it. They grew up like that, though. I feel like here, if you try and introduce some of those conveniences, it'd be like everything should be done this way. I don't know. I think Americans are a little bit more like, "Oh, that's weird," because we just know we have to do like this.Joe:It's really cultural differences, but I love this quote from him. And he said, "If I'm going to bother to put pants on and leave my apartment, it'd better be worth it."Stephanie:That's pretty great, and true. I feel that.Joe:It's like if I need batteries, do I want to get in the car and drive and go buy batteries? Well, if I do that and go to the store and they don't have that special battery, then it's really disappointing because now I spent 20, 30 minutes going out of my house to go get something because I wanted it right now and then they don't have it. This is why consumers do it a few times, they just start ordering online.Stephanie:Yeah. And I think the product, like you said, has to be worth it. How are you guys thinking about the experiences piece? Because we've had quite a few guests come on the show who've talked about their retail locations and turning them more into an experiential place, where you go there and you've got the certain music, and the vibes, and maybe you've got a yoga class going on over here and you're going there, not just to maybe pick up your product that you did order online during this time period, but you're also going there to maybe experience something that you wouldn't get elsewhere.Stephanie:A lot of people are saying retail's dead and I definitely do not see that happening. I'm like there is pent up demand to go in person and to go into stores, but I do think now there's going to be a new level of expectations of the consumers, not just going to want to go and shop around, they're going to want something else. How do you do that?Joe:I think that the role for retail is changing in terms of what experience means. If you go back 30 years ago, 40 years ago, shoppers didn't know what the new fashions were until they went to their favorite store and they saw what the new fashions were. So you went to your favorite store whether you're a Neiman Marcus shopper or Macy's shopper or a Target shopper, you went to the store to see what's available, what's in now. And there was that discovery and learning and value proposition that that store was giving you by bringing you things that fit your demographic. Today people know what's current as the store learns what's current. It's what the celebrities are wearing between social media and how quick things are in internet time. There is really no discovery value proposition for mass merchandise things.Joe:Where we see real success is curation. So you go to a store that's not a little bit of everything. It's a store that dives deep into a lifestyle or deep into a fashion style or deep into a demographic, and you go there and you immerse yourself in that brand, and then you immerse yourself in what that brand is about. That's the discovery. If you're someone who likes West Elm, and the style that West Elm delivers, you go to West Elm to see things that would be hard to find on your own elsewhere. If you wanted to go find your own curation, it would take you months of time on the internet trying to go discover all that stuff. But you can go to a store where their buyers have pulled that look together for you.Joe:If you're a Pottery Barn shopper, same kind of thing. You go to Pottery Barn and they've curated a set of things that fit a certain demographic and the lifestyle that they're looking for. So I think you're going to see a lot more of that curation. We did tour in New York City a couple of years ago, and the stores that were really doing amazing well were really deep into that curation idea.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. I completely agree. I'm thinking right now about going into a Crate and Barrel or something like that, and I'm looking to find new things of a similar style, instead of going somewhere that's exactly the same that I can just find online. That's a really interesting take. How are you viewing the omni-channel experience of making sure that's frictionless when someone's looking online and then going into the store and having a good experience online and offline?Joe:I think a few retailers are starting to really get it right. I think in the beginning, omni-channel was a poor band-aid for I'm out of stock in the store, and I think most customers didn't see that as a good solution. I think the right way to think of omni-channel is there used to be a really consistent funnel for how shoppers and the shopper journey went from just initial discovery all the way through purchase, and that funnel, I think, no longer exists. I think people find out about products all over the place. You might see it on a television show. You might hear about it from a friend, you might see it on social media, and your discovery happens in your life. Omni-channel really ought to enable you to easily find something you're interested in whenever you see it, or whenever you want to. There was an old Burger King commercial Have It Your Way, I think 30 years ago.Stephanie:I remember that.Joe:I think the omni-channel today really means that shoppers ought to be able to engage with a brand or engage with a product wherever and however they want to.Stephanie:And I like the idea too of picking up where you left off. Like if I'm shopping online and then I enter the store or get near it, a subtle reminder of, "Oh, hey. You were looking at this and it's actually here on aisle seven," or whatever it is, directing me to complete the consumer journey. But I don't feel like it's there yet. I know we've got beacons and ability to see when people are entering your store and track that, but it seems like not a lot of retailers have fully leaned into that method to make sure that the full experience is cohesive.Joe:Yeah. I think that we're coming from the early days of that. One of my favorite stories years ago, we were shopping for a Tiffany lamp years ago, a couple of years ago, Tiffany lamp. And I searched online one night, looked at some options. We went to a store and we bought a Tiffany lamp. And for the next two months, every banner ad I had on the internet was for Tiffany lamps.Stephanie:Yeah. It's like I'm past Tiffany now. I'm onto the next kind of lamp.Joe:I think that what's happened is there's been too much of trying to use algorithms and online searches and data to try to target individuals with things that you think they might be interested in and not enough focus on helping people build a cart of things that you are interested in. So, for example, imagine if you turn it around for a minute and the brand for an item that you're interested in has an ability for you to put something that you're interested in, in a basket. And then when you pass a store that carries that item, that has it in stock, they flag you that this thing you're interested is in this store, and it's almost turning it all the way around from the store or the brand pushing to having the brand help guide you to where you find things.Stephanie:Yeah, that's really good. That's the kind of world I would like to live in where it actually is helpful and not annoying. I was just speaking with another guest about text messages and how certain retail locations will be like, "Come on in for 20% off," and I'm like, it's not helpful when I'm sitting on my couch, watching The Bachelor. It's helpful when I'm walking into the store and they're like, "Hey, you better make sure you buy that rug from World Market because here's a coupon now. So make sure you finish the journey and you don't just walk in and out." But yeah-Joe:You're reaching to the point that's one of the things I think the retailers especially are missing, and I don't know what a good analogy is, but I think that discounts and sales and coupons are an overused tool and they influence a lot of people, but not everybody. I think that for some people being first is more important than getting it on sale. For other people something scarce and having access to it before it runs out. So I think there's a lot of opportunity, even just convenience. Take a grocery store, nearly every grocery store I've ever been in, they put all the staples in the back, and they run with 19th century's retail logic of, oh, if I make people walk all the way through the store, they might buy some more stuff.Stephanie:Not me, I got blinders on. I'm like I need my milk and goodbye.Joe:It turns out that the convenience stores like 7-Eleven sell a ton of milk. I don't know if you've ever bought a gallon of milk at 7-Eleven.Stephanie:I have, yeah. Hey, my two year old, desperate times desperate measures.Joe:And it's about convenience. So if I were in a grocery chain, in fact, I talked to one about this big chain recently and said, "Why don't you take your house brands of the staples and put them in a section in the front of the store where they're super convenient and mark them up, make them the same price or maybe even a little bit more than the branded stuff." And the answer was, "Well, we tried that and it didn't work." I'm like, "Oh, when did you do that?" "It was like 10 years ago." I'm like, "People have changed a lot in 10 years."Stephanie:Yeah. I'd rather pay more to get right to it. So what are some maybe interesting stories like that, where they have listened to your advice and they've seen good results? Or anything where you're like, "Oh, I remember this one customer did this and they increased revenue a bunch because of this one subtle tweak in the store layout or how they did their products or inventory," or whatever it may be.Joe:We'll start a little bit maybe with I think that pretty much in every case when we've helped a retailer test or try a technology, the results always exceed the indicators that they put forward. And the very be wilderness thing to us is that even though these solutions look to deliver tremendous results and impact, they still don't scale them.Stephanie:I don't think.Joe:Years ago we had a partner that was putting cameras in the ceiling to measure shopper engagement, how long does it take for a staff to engage a customer? And they happen to have as an artifact of that, I won't say the brand, but they had a brand of popular, very popular Cola was in the camera view on the shelf. And they observed that this diet version, this Cola was out of stock almost all the time. So they went to the head of all stores for this giant grocery chain and said, "Hey, I think that there's an opportunity for you to..." Actually it was, I'm sorry, the brand, they went to the brand and said, "You got a not at stock problem in this grocery chain." The guy they talked to said, "Oh, there's no way. I was head of merchandising in Southern California. We have people in that store twice a day checking inventory. Its inventory are stocked twice a week. We are never out of product."Joe:And I'm like, "Oh, really? Here's some video of how much you're out of stock." And it turned out that within a half a day that they stocked, they would sell out and they would be out of stock all day, for two days. The problem we run into is you put process in place and you tell people to follow the process and it may or may not happen. So they look at this and they're like, "Well, there's tremendous value in having this product in stock. It's a driver product for the store." If they're out of stock, and the store cares that they're out of stock. The cost of deploying the solution was probably $30 a month per store, not a huge thing for one of their top 70 driver products, and yet it never scaled.Stephanie:Interesting.Joe:And you feel this thing. There was another one where the labor, they showed this 30% increase in tool sales in a major chain by tracking the staff and shopper engagement and improving that. It was really simple solution. Almost never scales. Now one that we have seen scale, Theatro makes a Voice over IP ear piece set up for staff. So if you go to, I think, well Bass Pro Shops, as an example, who's the one that does jeans and apparel for teams? They all have an ear piece and a radio.Stephanie:Oh, Alister? Gap.Joe:Anyway, it doesn't matter. A lot of retailers use radios, and there's a cost in the radios, and for a parody, they can switch over to this Voice over IP, and this is one where we're seeing people test it, and then in a matter of weeks completely changed all their devices over. The value in that if you look at it, if you're on a radio network, everybody that has an ear piece in their ear hears all the chatter from everybody all day. With this new solution, you can address a message to an individual person. So only the person you want to talk to gets the message. Then there's the ability to ask for stock and deliveries and things like that. So they've also built the ability, some of their customers, if somebody drives up to do a pickup, you order online, pick up at the curb, you don't want there to be a high friction experience. You want to be able to pull up, very quickly have somebody bring your item and leave.Stephanie:So where do you think then the future of retail? What does it look like with all these new... Some of them feel like little tweaks, a radio where you just talk to who you want. To me, some of those things feel little. Are there not enough incentives for these retail stores to change? I know you had mentioned Wall Street maybe beating up on retailers a little bit when it comes to wanting to try new and innovative things. What do you think is holding back retail right now?Joe:I think a big part of it is Wall Street, again, back to that root cause problem. There's a set of retailers that we think of as digital media, and these are brands that started as a purely online brand, and now they're going to open up stores and they realize once they get to about a billion dollars or so in revenue to get to the next level, they've got to go physically open stores or expand their reach.Stephanie:Yeah, like Warby Parkers of the world.Joe:Yeah, exactly. And these digital native retailers, when they come into the physical world, they expect access to the same kind of insights that they've been getting with their online entity. They want to understand how many shoppers are coming in and when? What's the dwell? When people are picking things up and putting them down and not buying them, it's like something in your cart that you took back out. And they come in with a long list of insights that they'd like to be able to get in the retail operation. The question in Intel is how can you help me find people that can bring these solutions or help me deploy these solutions? And when I go to more traditional brick and mortar retail, the conversation is trying to convince them they should have these insights.Joe:So I think that a part of it is the digital natives come from a world of when you're online only, the only insights you have into your shopper is through the data trail they leave behind them. I think if you go to brick and mortar, they're not used to capitalizing and utilizing that data. Talked to one partner recently, they haven't validated this, but they said that the amount of data that Walmart generates in a day would take 26 years to upload to the cloud, being given traditional techniques.Stephanie:Wow.Joe:So there's a tremendous amount of data created in the enterprise of retail every day. And we think with IoT and the cost of compute coming down so much, and the ability to use AI to get insights, you can utilize a lot of this data at the edge without incurring the costs of moving it to the cloud and trying to process it there. I think that if you imagine that you're moving petabytes of data to the cloud, and you're trying to find the needles in the haystack, it's a really big haystack. How about if I just try to sift through the insights real time as they're occurring in the store?Joe:We talked to a major fast food chain who prides themselves on fresh product, and one of their major problems, I won't say what the product is, but they were throwing away 40% of their product to maintain the freshness, and they wanted to have a short wait because they understood freshness was important, and freshness was important for the brand, but they were having a huge product waste problem, and they wanted to use predictive analytics to understand what's happening in the parking lot? What's happening in the drive through and what's my queue look like in the store so they could predict when to put product in the cooker versus cooking it always, and then having it there just in case.Stephanie:Were you guys able to help with that?Joe:Absolutely. That kind of change drives tremendous business cost savings, but also ensures that your product is fresh and that your customers are satisfied in having to wait for product. So when done well, we think these insights deliver not only customer satisfaction, but also tremendous business impact.Stephanie:I mean, that also makes sense for why a lot of the more Legacy Retailers are scooping up all these DTC brands and keeping them separate and learning from them to see like, oh, what are you guys doing over there? And then starting to integrate them into the org to maybe be brought up to speed a bit with how maybe retail should operate from a digital perspective and what are the expectations coming in from someone who's used to that? And how can it get implemented into the org? We had someone on from Kellogg's who said just that. They would acquire different DTC brands, but then keep them off on their own so they didn't get too mixed into the Kellogg's culture because they wanted the DTC brands to stay as their own brand. So they didn't, I guess, turn too corporate if it happens. I don't know.Joe:Maybe not say corporate. I think you don't want to turn them old school.Stephanie:Yeah, exactly.Joe:[crosstalk] We see that same thing, and you mentioned the expectations. One of the ways we explained this consumer expectations, every time you have a better consumer experience on your mobile, better app experience, in the back of your mind, you wonder why every experience isn't that good. I'm old enough that I used to travel where you had to go to the ticket counter to get your boarding passes before you could print it at home, and then they went to kiosk where you could print them at the airport and it was an amazing improvement, and then they went to actually really pretty good apps. So airline apps, you can see if there's a meal on the plane, you can pick your seat. You can do quite a few things, check the status of the incoming flight, et cetera. Airline apps are really pretty good, and I travel a ton and I stay in hotels all the time. Why are the hotel apps worse than the airline apps? Why can't I pick my room?Stephanie:That's true. Why? I'm sure you probably asked them before.Joe:Well, and actually it's interesting. It turns out that the most hotel chains are using a third party service to assign and block rooms.Stephanie:Got it.Joe:So they don't actually have control over that, which is kind of crazy.Joe:And so I think what happens is anytime you have this better experience as a consumer, then it raises the bar on your expectations for every other experience. Cabs were, I've never enjoyed a cab ride. Not once in my life, I think.Stephanie:No, never.Joe:Uber realized early that there was a huge amount of friction in getting ride and people hated cabs. You'd call for a cab, all they would do is throw it on the radio network and maybe a cab responds, maybe not. You didn't have any predictability. When you get to your location, the last thing you want to do is sit there in the cab on the street corner and spend two or three minutes paying the cab driver.Stephanie:Yeah, awkward.Joe:And they understood that there was this huge friction. Well, now that Uber has taken the friction out of getting a ride, consumers see friction elsewhere in their life, and like why do I have this friction? Why is this not as good as an Uber?Stephanie:So what areas do you think are the biggest friction points when it comes to retail locations right now? And what do you wish things were looking like maybe over the next couple of years? What are you guys planning for? Where are you hoping the world will be in like three to five years?Joe:Well, we think that you're going to see a lot more delivery. I think that grocery delivery was very slowly ramping, pick up at the curb or delivery, and with the pandemic, a ton of people jumped in and tried it that probably wouldn't have tried it for a long time. So the adoption curve for that took a real steep spike up, and we don't think that that adoption is going to slow down. So I think that the grocery, and the grocery business is tough. They run really slim margins, and we talked to one major chain and they said, if you pick up at the curb, that they lose $5. And if they deliver, they lose 10 to 15. So the chains have to figure out how they're going to deal with that. There are a bunch of startups that are building essentially dark store technology. So instead of having a retail location with a giant parking lot and a big square footage and employees, they'll end up with a small industrial space with all the same inventory, but some robotics that will pull stuff off the shelf and pack totes.Stephanie:We actually just talked to a company called Wolseley who talked about how they see the future being... They're B2B also for plumbing and HVAC and things like that, but they're like, "I'm not so sure if retail for us anyways is the way to go anymore," instead of just having a small guide shop out front, and then just having a micro fulfillment center or a warehouse in the back, and then they get your stuff and give it to you on the curb. But why do you need to come in for their business anyways and shop around when a lot of times these contractors already know what they want. They don't need to walk around like they would at Home Depot.Joe:It's funny, I was at a home improvement store recently, and I'm waiting in customer service to make a return, and they're on the phone with a customer who very wisely placed an order for like 50 things, probably contractor, but he did an online pickup at the curb order. They were on hold with this guy and they're talking to each other saying, "We don't have the labor to have somebody spend an hour running around the store to pick all these stuff." What a smart contractor? Why not have the home improvement staff eat that labor versus him send somebody? And he said, "Hey, can you please call me once it's all picked?"Stephanie:That's smart. I mean, how can-Joe:And of course they had to say, "Sure." The manager's like, "Yeah, absolutely." So I think what's going to happen is these expectations are going to keep rising from consumers, and the retailers are going to have to figure out how to adapt.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems it's the pricing thing, though. Right now everyone is expecting a curbside delivery or something to be free because it's new and that's the expectation now, but I could see eventually being like, if you want someone to shop for you, just like you would with any of these grocery delivery shopping apps, you're going to have to pay a little bit to have them go and-Joe:But look at it this way. We talked, again, one of these companies building these systems and we talked to a big chain that's testing it. If you go to the normal financial model for a grocery store, big piece of real estate, prime location, huge parking lot, a lot of physical assets tied up. And if you go to a dark store, really cheap, industrial space real estate, so the real estate model's completely different, the staffing model's completely different, and the financials could be such that, and again, I don't know, but it actually might be cheaper to deliver groceries that way. Now, it's a new build add, it's a new approach, but again it's a huge change, but it doesn't necessarily have to mean higher prices for consumers. And I think what's going to happen is some will try to charge more and others will figure out how to go do it in a way that doesn't cost more.Stephanie:That's a good point. I like that. So how do you think about-Joe:It's competitiveness, right?Stephanie:Yeah. Hey, that's economics right there. Someone will figure it out and put the other one out of business possibly, or not. But how are you thinking about new technology right now? I know we were talking a bit about AI and how it's impacting retail and retail workers. What are your thoughts around that or other technologies that are maybe going to disrupt retail?Joe:Well, still really believe a lot in computer vision, and I think one of the things I'm really proud of for Intel is we've always been huge advocates and protectors of consumer privacy, personal privacy. So as a company, our core culture, our philosophy, our lobbying efforts are all around protecting privacy. Our point of view in using cameras in retail, and we've been helping people do this for many years, we only want to do it in a way that's totally anonymous. So it's not like I'm trying to detect Joe when Joe walks in the store. I want to look at the pattern of behavior that this shopper has anonymously, and what have people in the past that had that similar pattern of behavior been interested in, and how might I go send some staff over to do the right thing there. So take me, for example, if we go to the mall and I'm with my wife or daughters, I'm probably hanging out with him and I'm not really shopping. So I'm wandering in the store-Stephanie:You're that personally couch just chilling.Joe:Yeah, or I might be wandering around in the men's department, but I'm kind of killing time, but I'm probably open for somebody to come show me something, because I'm browsing and you could observe that, oh, this person is slowly walking around and looking at stuff. There's other times when I need another white dress shirt for a business trip, and I know exactly which door to park at, that's the shortest distance to the white dress shirts. And I'm walking in a direct line to a section. Computer vision and AI could detect that this shopper's not browsing, don't bother him. Don't send them a discount coupon or don't send him alert to some new item they might be interested in.Stephanie:Do you have retailers right now who are implementing that? Because that sounds awesome and a really good way to personalize to the shoppers coming in. Do you have anyone who's trying anything out yet?Joe:There've been lots of things to experiment and test, a lot of partners building solutions like that. I think the world of privacy right now is way too fragmented. Too many different points of view, too many different state perspectives on it. You've got some places where cameras are banned. You can't use a camera at all. And I think that the governments really need to get their act together and understand how is the data going to be used? How is the technologies? How can it be done in a way to protect privacy? In the implementations, we advocate no data ever leaves the edge, the system. The only thing that ever leaves the system it's account. This kind of shopper did this kind of pattern of behavior. Everything's fully anonymous. Back in the early days, we actually went and talked to governments across Europe where the privacy is even more simple, and every government entity we talked to was totally comfortable with the approach we were advocating.Joe:I think the computer vision that we think is really going to be profound, and it'll be used for mundane things like trying to understand out of stocks or inventory situation. Years ago, I won't say the name of the chain, but there was a study where they're comparing Amazon to a giant big-box retailer. They went to 25 locations of the big-box retailer and bought these 40 items and then they priced it out on Amazon. The headline for the story was Amazon was more expensive than the physical retail location, which was big news at the time because everybody thought Amazon is just winning on price. But the subtitle of the article, the second message was, but 25% of the items on average were out of stock at the brick and mortar retailer.Joe:We happened to be meeting with the executives in that company about a week after that, story came out and their heads were exploding because they thought they had a 5% out of stock problem. And it turns out that they did in terms of it was in the store, but it had a huge congestion of stuff in the back room that wasn't on the shelf yet. And as we dug into it further, we did a lot of work with them using computer vision and whatnot, this is years ago, and it turned out that one of the behaviors they had that they had to try to break is the people stocking the shelves would bring a box of say large size mint shampoo out and they needed to have the small and the large, but they didn't have the small, so they just filled the shelf up in the large.Joe:So when somebody came to look for the small, it's out of stock, and the shelf looked full because they would face it all out so that every front was full of product, but they didn't have all the products on the shelf. It was really because the people stocking the shelves were not following the process and they're being lazy, and that's where we thought to-Stephanie:Use robots then. Robots aren't lazy and they listen to whatever you tell them. So that must just be the way to fix things.Joe:Yeah, maybe. I guess as a tech company maybe that's a good thing for us, but I think that, again, if it's a staple, you just want it to be convenient, and convenient means the fastest, easiest way possible. To me it's like when I run out a catch-up, wouldn't it be amazing if it was just at my door automatically the moment I needed it? Well, we're not there yet, but at some point, somebody's going to figure out how to make my running out of ketchup something that won't happen.Stephanie:Yeah. I thought there were brands or companies working on that to track what's in your refrigerator and then reorder it if it's out. Maybe that never came to fruition and that was more just that [inaudible 00:36:00].Joe:They've been a lot. We actually had some partners who were doing that years ago as well. The challenge ran into it I think is how do you know what's in your fridge? Does the consumer scan all the barcodes? Do you have the discipline to scan a barcode when you run out. These problems certainly aren't easy to solve. We mentioned earlier out of stock, so I'm working at that problem. We worked with probably, I don't know, more than 20 big retailers on trying to see how RFID could help solve their inventory accuracy. Then we would always start with taking one of their stores and we would do a really deep physical inventory. We never found any retailer that had better than 65% of their skews correctly counted.Stephanie:Wow. That's sad.Joe:Then if you want to be able to compete with an online-only retailer who gives free shipping, you probably have to give free shipping, but wouldn't it be ideal if you could deliver all of your stuff from a local store so that you minimize the shipping time, you minimize the shipping cost. But if you don't know what your inventory is, then you take an order assuming you've got really close delivery, but then it's out of stock in the store. We talked to the department store who was really aggressively trying to do this fulfill from store, and they were spending on average 20 minutes per item to find it on the floor.Stephanie:Jeez, if they're taking 20 minutes-Joe:That's [crosstalk 00:37:26], right?Stephanie:Yeah, that's wild.Joe:So they were looking at RFID to try to be able to help with that as well. With RFID, you would know where things are in the store. This is another one too. We talked to, gosh, I'm try to really keep people anonymous here, a head of stores executive who came from a large brand who had a lot of stores, and they deployed RFID in all their products in the branded stores, and they've got their sales go up like 60%.Stephanie:So why wouldn't everyone do RFID? We're talking about Japan's doing it with all their stores now, brands who are implementing it, are taking off when it comes to sales. Why wouldn't people? What's the holdup? Why are more people-Joe:That's the big mystery? So if you can figure this out through your interview, please share.Stephanie:I will have to start asking around. I'm like it seems like a no brainer. Is it hard to get your manufacturers to do it?Joe:I think there's a lot of processes that get touched, is one of the problems. There's your supply chain, there's your distribution center, there's all the staff in the distribution center, there's process changes at the store. So there's a lot of pieces of this that end up getting touched. We talked to one retailer, big retailer, who they made the change on the POS. It was a touchscreen checkout for the staff. They had to do a training class to train people on this change, and it was a two hour training class for like 170,000 employees. And they said it was all extra time. You couldn't do it on the floor. So now you've got 340,000 extra hours of labor to make a simple change on a user interface.Joe:I think when it gets to doing these kinds of changes, what happens when there's a return? What happens when there's a return but the RFID tag is no longer in the item? So there's a lot of things that have to change. I think what's going to happen is we're going to see branded retail do this first because they control the supply chain, and you're going to see some really tremendous results. The example I gave you when they were head of brand and retail at one brand, and then went to another one, the challenge with the second one is they had a lot more suppliers, so they had to manage a lot of factories to supply their stores, even though they were all their own brand. It was still a supply chain challenge.Stephanie:Well, it seems like Whole Foods and Amazon are going to be the first ones that can do it. They've got the ability to, especially with Amazon's operations and processes, and they've got the Whole Foods brand going on. They control all their supply chain.Joe:And the Amazon could decide to spend a gigantic amount of cash modernizing Whole Foods infrastructure and Wall Street wouldn't blink an eye. Kroger could never do that because Wall Street wouldn't let them.Stephanie:That's sad, and also just shows how there's, I don't know. It makes you wonder about how a lot of companies right now aren't going the IPO route, and I get it. I get it hearing and seeing the incentives like that, or lack of incentives of wanting to... They talk about destroy your business to make an even better one and how some of the best companies had to do that, whether it be the Netflix of the worlds. But yeah, it seems like a lot is held back.Joe:What do you mean? Private equity, we're seeing more and more where private equity will come in and the leadership of the company will be in favor of a private equity takeover because it can pull themselves off the Wall Street treadmill for a bit to make these fundamental changes.Stephanie:But isn't it usually a bad sign when PE comes in? Don't most of those companies end up going bankrupt when this happens?Joe:I think there's a couple kinds of private equity. Look at Dell. Not a retail case, but Dell they needed to retool Dell and they needed to not be under the scrutiny of Wall Street for a while, and Dell has done amazing things through the use of private equity. I think if the company is fundamentally unsound, private equity might be vulture capital, where they come in and strip things down to the bones and get rid of it. But I think fundamentally sound business that needs to make changes that aren't really possible to Wall Street, I think this is going to be one of the areas where I think there's going to be a lot of money made where private equity is going to go look at some of these really good retailers that fundamentally have to change. And if wall street doesn't change the model P&L expectations, I think private equity will become a much bigger factor.Stephanie:That's a hot take. I like that. That's very interesting. So if there was some data right now that brands should be collecting at their retail locations, that's not really hard to implement, but they should be doing from the start, what comes to mind? Where you're like, "Right away, you should be collecting at least these five attributes on your customers as they come in and you don't need computer vision. You don't need beacons or RFID, but you should at least have this to be able to give a better experience to your consumer." Anything come to mind?Joe:I think that the thing that is most fundamental, and it's still shocking that all retailers don't do this, and that's just counting your traffic. Not counting it daily, but knowing what's happening with your traffic every minute.Joe:But I think understanding your traffic, that's the most important thing for an online business. What's my traffic? Dwell. How long was this shopper in the store? How long was this shopper on my site? What things did the shopper browse? What was their click path for my online? What was their path in the store? For me, if I were going to leave tech and move into retail, I would start with how does an online retailer excel? And how would I try to get all those same insights for brick and mortar? One of the things to me that... There's a tremendous amount of demand created real time in retail. So we saw one study that says 60% of purchases in stores in the US and Europe are for things people didn't know they were going to buy when they went to the store. So a huge amount of real-time demand. You see something, you like it, and you decide you want to buy it. Well, how disappointing is it when you see something you like and then it's out of stock in your size?Stephanie:That's worse sometimes.Joe:That goes from being a point of excitement. You got a little bit of excitement to buy something and then you're let down. What we would say is rather than having mannequins displaying items that the brand is paying you to show this week. We talked to retail after retailer after two or three days of something on the mannequin that sold out, but they're paid to run it for a week. So they're creating demand for something that's sold out because the contract of the brand said you need to show this item for a week. It's funny. If you talk to a giant apparel brand about this problem, honestly, one of the C-suite executive was like, "Oh my God, that's why stuff's always out of stock in the store." I'm like, "Yeah, you have some flexibility and freedom to the staff to put what they have too much of."Joe:We talked to one major department store chain that made that change a few years ago where they said, "Instead of getting paid to run things on the mannequins, we're going to have our staff every evening look at inventory and whatever they have too much of, put that on the mannequin for the next day." And it's amazing how much they were able to sell through inventory before they had the market down. We would advocate that at the front of the store where you've got posters and prints, maybe it's a department store and it's prom dress season, so you're showing prom dresses on the poster, that isn't really relevant to most of your shoppers. Most girls are not prom dress age. Most moms are not at the age of having daughters that are prom dress age. Most dads don't buy the prom dress.Joe:Put a more simple thing in it. Put a digital sign at the front of the store with a camera that will anonymously look at age and gender. And then if you're really sophisticated, you could say, "Okay, well now I'm going try in inventory system and I have too many of something." Phoenix it was a really dry winter. We have too many raincoats. I see a guy coming in and I've got too many men's raincoats. Throw a men's raincoat on the screen. And even the next step, we can estimate the size of the shopper. So I've got a really big guy coming in, but I'm out of extra large raincoats. Don't show them a raincoat. These subtle things, and it's not like every shopper is going to buy a raincoat, but suddenly putting something that's possibly more relevant on the screen than a prom dress is a great way to use that valuable real estate. That's the kind of thing that an online retailer will do. Like Zulily, they introduce thousands of new products every day.Stephanie:Zulily? Yeah.Joe:We met with them one day at one point, and they said in the morning, early in the morning, they have one landing page, and by 8:00 AM, they have 280 unique landing pages. Then they know what demographic, what bucket you fall in for them as a shopper. So when you go to their landing page at 10 in the morning, you're going to see something that's full of things likely to be relevant to you.Stephanie:We were talking with Lenovo way early on in the show and they were saying they have 85,000 different landing pages going on at any one point. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how do you keep track of that?" But he's like, "Oh yeah, that's just how you test and know what people want." So it's just very interesting. But I think Zulily though, when they say how many landing pages they have, they are all about talking about being personalized and stuff, but I think a lot of times they just think having a new name isn't being personalized and they count that towards a new landing page. That does not count just saying, "Hi, Stephanie," or, "Hi, Joe."Joe:The way they were explaining to us is if you shop for baby clothes, you often are buying baby clothes, your landing page would have baby clothes on it. If you don't buy baby clothes, your landing page would not have baby clothes.Stephanie:Yeah. That's more personalized. I like that. Very cool.Joe:The key thing here is that this is a journey. I don't think anybody's going to go make all these changes overnight, but there's the ability to start using this information. I think one starting, know your shoppers. It's amazing how many retailers when we talk to them about what are your shopper's pain points? What are your shoppers not happy with? They don't have a good answer, which is really surprising. For me, when we're out trying to define solutions for the market, the first thing we look for is what's a business problem. And if I go into education, what is the problem that educators are having right now that they're worried about? We go into hospitality, what problem do they need help solving? I often tell people at Intel, we have 3,200 PhDs. If we understand your problem, we can figure out how to solve it. And it's amazing how many retailers don't spend time really understanding what friction or what pain points do their shoppers have.Stephanie:Yeah. I think they're going to have to now. I think now with everything that's happened and you had the acceleration of ecommerce, there will be, like you said, new expectations. And yeah, I think the theme is now there's also all these new technology to use and utilize, and maybe implement if it's allowed, but then putting that extra level of human curation on top of it when needed is going to be the way of the future. So use the tech, but also have it curated and have the human feel to it that people are going to miss over this next year, especially with how much we've been at home all by ourselves.Joe:And after people have really radically modified their behavior for a year. A few months it was one thing, but we're coming up on a year where people have had to change pretty fundamentally how they shop and live. How much of that's going to stick permanently? Like I said, I think grocery, and some of those things are going to way more people will be doing that post pandemic than did pre pandemic and they'll stick with it. What else is going to fundamentally change?Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, I know we're running up on time, so I want to shift over to the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Joe?Joe:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Joe:Oh my gosh. Our twin daughters were born three months premature, and the amount of help and leaning in that we had as relatively young and new to Arizona couple was just staggering. Probably 80 families leaned in to help us, which is amazing,Stephanie:Man, I'm going to come to Arizona. That sounds like a nice spot to be. How old are your twins?Joe:They're 30 today. That was a long time ago.Stephanie:Nice. I also have twin boys, and I'm a twin.Joe:That's awesome.Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list?Joe:I'm really actually studying more around AI and frameworks and trying to get a bit smarter around the nerdy geek stuff. So I don't have any grade to casual reading. For me it's more about the tech.Stephanie:Hey, that's good. Well, I was just going to ask you what one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did? Is it AI, or are there other things that you wish you understood?Joe:I grew up as a silicon engineer and so I'm a hardware person and I'm not a software developer, I never have been. And so I'm really trying to understand the worldview of a software developer more than a hardware person. At least I think I know I don't know everything. So it's almost like the first step of the 12 step program, acknowledging that I don't know everything, I'm there.Stephanie:Well then maybe you want to check out the book I'm just starting to read. I think it's called Ask your Developer by the Twilio CEO. I just started reading it.Joe:That sounds good.Stephanie:Yeah, there you go. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? And who would your first guest be?Joe:My podcast would be on how technology is going to fundamentally transform shoppers' lives.Stephanie:I love that. Who would your first guest be?Joe:And my first guest, I would actually like to have Bezos.Stephanie:As do I. Let's go get him. Jeff, where are you at?Joe:See if he can help you with that.Stephanie:Yeah, I know. Is Moore's law dead?Joe:Moore's law, if you think about it purely as Silicon, which is when Gordon created that, it was really a silicon construct. We're no longer on that same track, but at a system level in terms of what a system does for you, we're on a similar curve. One of my favorite ways to explain this is, if you hold up your smartphone, the amount of compute in your smartphone 10 years ago was 100X the volume and the same thing's going to be true. So if you look at this amount of compute today is going to be one-100th the size in 10 years. Or you could say, "Hey, what would 100X?" It'd be a giant server room could be in your phone. And so if you think about it, it's not a matter of if I have enough compute to do something, it's a matter of when I have enough compute to do something.Stephanie:Got it.Joe:And I think that's probably to me the magic of Moore's law and some people really get it, and they really understand that it's just a matter of a few years until the compute is cheap enough to do what you want. We're talking about AI for a minute, if we go back 10 years ago at Intel, we had $100,000 computer workstation on every one of our factory tools and these are $50 million tools. Workstation and a huge number of engineers creating algorithms to optimize our manufacturing. So we were doing AI that was very expensive 10 years ago. Very few manufacturing processes can afford that. You jump forward to today and it's simple and cheap and easy to have that amount of compute, and the maturity of this AI computer environment is so much improved that anybody can really deploy what took an army of engineers and very expensive compute 10 years ago.Stephanie:Oh, I love that. I forget what show podcast I was listening to where they were talking about AI and saying a lot of the stuff that we have today, we had access to 10 years ago. We just didn't have the compute power and the ability to do it, but people knew it was coming. And I'd always be interested to hear from those people who could see the vision and be like, "I just need another five or 10 years of acceleration and then my product will work." It's very interesting.Joe:If you imagine the amount of compute that you can afford, whatever that number is, $1000, $100, whatever, but the amount of compute you can afford is going to double in performance every 18 months. Okay, double, you can imagine that, but you don't realize it's 10X in five years and 10X is really hard to comprehend.Stephanie:Yeah, it's hard to extrapolate things like that. Well, I appreciate you answering that question. I was like, "Hmm, I know Joe will have a good answer for this one, even though it's very maybe off of ecommerce." But Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and your work?Joe:Well, I work for Intel, obviously. We do have a retail landing page at Intel. We actually don't sell anything to retailers. All of our work is done enabling suppliers to retail to build better solutions, and I try to spend all my time, if possible, talking to retailers to better understand the business problems they have so I can help guide my partners in building better solutions.Stephanie:Cool. Sounds good. Well, people will go and find you if they have any questions I'm sure then. Thanks so much.Joe:Thanks, Stephanie.

  I sat down with my dear friend, the great Hammond B3 organist, Papa John DeFrancesco. When I first starting exploring the music scene in Phoenix, AZ after moving here in 2004, I came across this cool club called Bobby C's near downtown Phoenix. On Sundays, they would serve the most amazing Southern food and they had Papa John and band playing jazz that I hadn't heard since I left New York City. Papa John, if you haven't already guessed, is the father of the great organist Joey DeFrancesco. Papa John and I took to each other right away and he used to let me sit in and we became life long friends. When the drum chair opened up with his band, I got the call and we've been playing together ever since. I hope you enjoy this conversation with this beautiful person and amazing jazz organist. He's a treasure and I'm honored to call him a friend and mentor. Connect with Papa John DeFrancesco: Personal Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/john.defrancesco3 Facebook Fan Page: https://www.facebook.com/Papa-John-DeFrancesco-101631944618/ Papa John's CDs: "Desert Heat" - https://amzn.to/2BXx9JF "All in the Family" - https://amzn.to/39V5aH2 "Comin' Home" - https://amzn.to/3ibVnj4 "Big Shot" - https://amzn.to/33oo5sJ "A Philadelphia Story" - https://amzn.to/2XrsFm6 "Hip Cake Walk" - https://amzn.to/3fC4nfH "Walkin Uptown" - https://amzn.to/3keUMyz "Jumpin'" - https://amzn.to/33ooiw1 "Doodlin" - https://amzn.to/3ftpmB2 Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Papa John: Right now, I'm praying. Joe: Hey, everybody, welcome to the Joe Costello show. I'm really happy that you're here and you are giving me your ears and listening to the podcast. I have a very special dear friend, special guest, amazing jazz musician, my dear friend, Papa John DeFrancesco. Welcome, Papa John. How are you doing, man? Papa John: Yes, I'm doing good, I'm talking to you. Joe: So Papa John: My Joe: Nice Papa John: Main Joe: To see your Papa John: Man. Joe: Face there. Papa John: Good to see you, Joe. Joe: Yeah, man, so how are you doing? Papa John: Then. Joe: How are you doing? Papa John: I'm doing good, Joe. Every day is a better day. Man. Joe: That's good, yeah. Papa John: I got the say Angel me so she's Joe: I Papa John: Like. Joe: Know, I know Papa John: Putting up with my crap Joe: You Papa John: The. Joe: And you're doing Papa John: The. Joe: Some swimming, right? You're staying cool. Papa John: Yeah, in the past, we had Joe: Yeah, Papa John: A big bathtub Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Man, Joe: Is it warm? Papa John: The pool was like ninety seven man eighty nine the other day. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Papa John: I know you when you first go in, you cool off Joe: Yeah, Papa John: And then you get warm. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: And then you come out and you're cool for about 30 seconds. Joe: Welcome to Arizona. Papa John: Is beautiful that. Joe: Yeah, so, man, I'm really excited, I want to give my own quick sort of history of you and I and and then and then I want to kind of go back to where you started and how we both actually had similar influences with our our fathers being Papa John: I Joe: Musicians Papa John: Saw that Joe: And stuff. Papa John: In. Joe: Yeah. Yeah. So for me, so I moved to I moved to Arizona, Scottsdale, Arizona in two thousand four, didn't really know what the scene was, did and didn't play much, didn't go out to do anything. And then all of a sudden I heard about this cool place called Bobby C's Papa John: Oh, my God, that was the place, man. Joe: Yeah, and I walk in the door and it's just all Southern cooking and you're behind the B3 and you have all these great musicians playing with you. And I just say, WOW!. And I think we started making it a Sunday ritual that we would go there every Sunday Papa John: Yeah, Joe: And hang out. Papa John: You Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Were there Joe: Yeah. Papa John: With Joe: And Papa John: Their Joe: Then Papa John: Brother. Joe: And everybody was nice enough to some point I got to sit in and then I got to got to sit in a little bit more and Papa John: We Joe: Then Papa John: To talk. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: And Joe: We Papa John: You Joe: Had. Papa John: Would never say you were a drummer when I found that out. Get your butt off your back. Joe: I was keeping it on the down low, there was a lot of Papa John: Yeah. Joe: Great players there. I didn't want to, you know, Papa John: Your Joe: I wanted Papa John: Great Joe: That Papa John: Player, Joe: Just Papa John: Joe. Joe: Thanks man. That means a lot coming from you, as you know. Papa John: Now we play, I tell you what, I enjoy working with the. Joe: Well, thank Papa John: You're Joe: You. Papa John: You're you're one of the very few people you played music with that listen. Joe: Well, thank Papa John: You Joe: You. Papa John: Know that deal, you get up there and nobody is listening Joe: Yeah, well, Papa John: Everybody Joe: I appreciate Papa John: Playing in Joe: It. Papa John: A different place played a different band Joe: Yeah, Papa John: And. Joe: Yeah, well, Papa John: Well, let's Joe: That Papa John: Go, let's go, Joe: I Papa John: Let's Joe: Appreciate Papa John: Go. Joe: That and yeah, and I feel the same way because literally I didn't know many people around town but you and you and I've said this to you before and but I don't think it has sunk into your thick skull that you literally gave me like a chance and a more opportunity Papa John: Oh, Joe: Than Papa John: My God. Joe: Most people have ever given me in my musical career. Papa John: Oh, Joe: And that's Papa John: My Joe: The truth. Papa John: God, Joe: It's the truth. Papa John: You're going to make me cry live Joe: No, Papa John: In. Joe: No, no, it's the truth, I was nobody I was in and after sitting in for a while and you would always let me sit in and then and then we started playing together, like, regularly. Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Right. And Papa John: Yeah. Joe: That was cool. I was like, wow, I'm playing with one of the jazz greats on the B3. And it means a lot to me. And my father Papa John: Na Joe: Was proud. Papa John: Na Joe: My parents Papa John: Na, Joe: Were Papa John: Then Joe: Proud. Papa John: Your Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Dad was cool man Joe: Yeah, it meant a lot. So Papa John: We had a Joe: Yeah, we had a blast. Papa John: Mutual man like we got into some nice grooves. Joe: Yeah, we did, Papa John: Now, Joe: Yeah, we Papa John: Boy, Joe: We had some nice gigs. Papa John: Nice, nice gig, Joe: Well, Papa John: Good Joe: Hopefully, Papa John: Music. Yeah. Joe: Hopefully there'll be more coming up once the world gets back to some sort of Papa John: And. Joe: Whatever. I don't know what it's going to be, but. Right. Papa John: God help us to get back, Joe: All right, Papa John: It Joe: Cool. Papa John: Always does by then I'll be one hundred and forty cases of that. Joe: They long as you're here with us, that's cool. We Papa John: Ah Man Joe: Don't care, so. Papa John: Beautiful Joe Joe: So let's go back and tell me how this started for you, because I know besides music, like I said, we we talked about what what part of this you want to talk about. And if it's all Papa John: Would Joe: Music Papa John: Anyone? Joe: Or you want to you want to talk about anything else. So tell me about your father or how this music started for you. Papa John: It's very similar, I guess, here, but I was I wanted to play man, and so he said I told him I wanted to play the saxophone. I was about six five. He said it's too big for you, so he started me out on clarinet. I started playing clarinet and then I heard this guy named Louis Armstrong. Trumpet player. I saw I play trumpet. He said I got 15 million saxophones in there. You want to play trumpet? Though he got when I bought me a trumpet, I was about 10 years old i guess. He taught me how to play. And. Next person I saw that kind of play school band in school, and there is a lot of good friends I met when I was a junior in high school and Joe: And where was Papa John: The next. Joe: This, was this all Philadelphia? Papa John: Niagara Falls, New Joe: Oh, Papa John: York. Joe: That's right, I totally forgot Niagara Papa John: And Joe: Falls. Papa John: A New York woman, we're Joe: That's Papa John: Both from Joe: Right. Papa John: New York Joe: I know, Papa John: State. Joe: But I forgot that's where you started out. Papa John: Niagara Falls, New York, man, it was a real beautiful city at one time. And I was always but I dug it,  I love airplanes and cars Joe: I know Papa John: And Joe: You like cars. Papa John: Yeah, and music was right at the top three. I love and you know, it was cool about the music my dad taught me, but it would also take me to all these air shows because, you know, I, liked airplanes my mom about you coming Jen, Jenny my mom. Where, to look at airplanes and I go shopping or something. So but most of my my life is the music that you go out and you hear somebody and you go nuts. And then my next biggest thing was in 1959 when I saw Jimmy Smith Joe: Where was that? Papa John: That was in Buffalo, Kleinhans Music Hall, The Trio too, Donald Bailey and Kenny Burrell, Joe: WOW! Papa John: Stanley Turrentine came later. But I saw, man those cats were dealing. Holy Cow!, that organ, ya know, it's spiritual side. And it just grabbed me, but Joe: That was Papa John: I Joe: Fifty Papa John: Didn't get. Joe: Nine, you said. Papa John: Yeah, and I didn't do nothing till the 60's with the organ, but I was playing trumpet the whole time. Big band singing, all that, you know the deal. Then, I got married and the kids started coming, so I was still playing. But not the full-time I was like, well, not for three or four nights a week. Places were jumping then, you know. Joe: And this was all still Niagara Falls. Papa John: Niagara Falls, the left Niagara Falls in 1967, went to Philly, went to Philly in '57. Joe: What made you go there? Papa John: I was I was my uncle has got to get a job at Boeing aircraft, and he asked me for Niagara Falls is starting to go down and. It was on the ground, and so, yeah, I worked on airplanes and cars, so, you know, it got that bad. I met a bunch of horn players down there. Right. I was in town for two months and I met a guy at work, Am I talking to much Joe? Joe: No, this is what you're here to do. You're here to tell your story, I want to hear it in this. This is all at Boeing. Papa John: Now and I wish you could play organ man. Absolutely. I know you went downtown one time for a session and in Chester you can't get an organ player with him and said this cats gotta go. If you go, you've got to come up here, man. And then we did a lot of road thing at that time. They had Cabaret's they use to call them Cabaret's I did a ton of those Joe: So Papa John: Other people, man. Joe: So when did you start the organ? Papa John: Nineteen sixty three, wait, sixty four Joe: Sixty four. Papa John: I come home from work day and  my wife had one,  she got it for me. Joe: Oh, wow. And this is still Niagara Falls because you didn't go to Philly Papa John: No. Joe: Until 67. Papa John: Yeah, it was still there. She thought of all of this, too bar in organ called My house was never the same since man. Joe: And are you completely self-taught? Papa John: Yes, and the organ yeah, on my dad, I had a basic knowledge of me, but, you know, horn, not chords you're playing chords like, I was trying to transfer all that Joe: Right. Papa John: And it was tough, but. Joe: Well, then the tough part, too, especially for the B3 players, is the independence in the left hand right playing the base line and then being able to solo over it. Papa John: Split your brain in half man. And you thinking and you do it too. Joe: Explain to me how the organ ended up in, I know you said Laurene bought one, but was it because you saw like were you listening people like Jimmy Smith? Papa John: Oh, Joe: Was that after Papa John: Man. Joe: You saw him? You were just bit by the bug. And that was Papa John: Not Joe: That. That was it. Papa John: Every album that would come out, I get from Jimmy and then I tell Jack McGuff and there was a lot of burner's out there Ganpati. I mean there was a ton then, you know, Charles Earling and I met all these guys so now we're out doing some serious. I learned so much. Joe: So what was that first organ that was in the house? Papa John: Or the spin it. Joe: He has no say couldn't have been a full B3. I like Laurene. Papa John: Now, it was a Spinet Joe: Ok. Papa John: And then I bought Leslie. But it still wasn't a B man. And I found a B for sale, so I sold all my stuff, but B and then that's how I really learned how to play like on this thing man [plays organ] Joe: Exactly. So what was your first real gig on it? It was somewhere in Philadelphia with this when you met these guys. Papa John: On the organ?, on the B?, back in Niagara Falls, I had the organ in Niagara Falls, yeah. Once I got to B3, I got out and started playing, I love a man, I was still learning. I mean, the coordination, the coordination is tough Joe Joe: The coordination is tough, the hauling the thing around is tough. Papa John: Well, that's why I had to get surgery on my back. No, that wasn't much but you're hauling that son of a gun man, Joe: Yeah. Papa John: You know, I bought vans. I bought my old van, used to be rented trailer, mostly with trailer till I came out with vans and got a van. You know, it was it was funny, man. You go, well, I've got to move organ, the drummer said "I go get a pack of cigarettes." Joe: Exactly. Papa John: I'll be right back because I get to go get a loaf of bread. I'll be right back. Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Yeah. Papa John: But it was quite experience lugging that monster. Joe: Yeah, so did you bring so you had a B3 in Niagara Falls, did you bring that with you to Philly? Papa John: Yes. Yeah, Joe: And then Papa John: That's. Joe: Where is that where is that now? Papa John: And at the Musical Museum. Joe: That's the original one. Papa John: Yes, the one that we played that night when we when we did the gig. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: At my first box man. Joe: Oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize that. Papa John: Nineteen sixty six by. Joe: Wow. Papa John: That's Joe: Yes, Papa John: My Joe: So Papa John: Yeah. Joe: So everybody for everybody listening in here in Phoenix, Arizona, there's the Musical Instrument Museum. It's called The MIM for short. Papa John's original B3 is there on display. They probably move it in and out on display. Right. Sometimes they'll do it's not permanent. Papa John: Yeah, Joe: They keep it there. Papa John: There, but it was Joey's first organ too ya know Joe: That's Papa John: That. Joe: Really cool. Papa John: Yeah, well, my fathers horns there at one time now playing them, yeah, was that was the first to go that the number one man we had redone. It was like. From being out on the road, being banged around, we had a guy redo it, that's the one man. Joe: Well, I didn't know that, so that that night we did that concert there, that was your we literally play it on your very first B3 organ. Man, Papa John: We're going, yeah, Joe: Oh man, Papa John: Man. Yeah. Joe: I didn't know that. I just thought that was just one of them. I didn't know that was THEE one. Papa John: That's the one I never got rid of it, never. Joe: Wow, Papa John: Never, Joe: That's incredible. Papa John: I would not you know, I could have sold that, that's Daisy, we had a name and we know what the name was, "Oh, boy." Joe: Oh, boy, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Nice. Papa John: Come on, we had to go Ol Boy Joe: That Papa John: Mad, Joe: Is Papa John: Matt. Joe: So funny, so in those days when you weren't playing out, that was, was it always inside the house the way yours is now in your house, like you're literally sitting behind your B3 three now at your house? Papa John: And I am. It was Joe: Or. Papa John: Either in the house or in the van. Joe: Ok. Papa John: You know, one or the other, and mostly if if it was along, never had much time to take it out of the van, you know, Joe: And Papa John: It was Joe: A lot, Papa John: A go. Joe: Right? Papa John: Yeah, the only time I'd bring it down would be maintenance. You replace tubes, do the wiring and it was traveling. Joe: Did you work on it yourself, because I know a lot of you B3 organ players, man, you know Papa John: They're. Joe: You know that instrument because you can't trust that anybody else in the room is going to know what's going on. Papa John: That's right, Joe: Right, we've had Papa John: The. Joe: A member of Bobby C's, we had like something weird happen one day. Papa John: And try to remember what? Joe: And I remember you just you took off the front lid and people were in there and not people, Papa John: Yeah. Joe: But but you were kind of telling somebody, hey, just try this or whatever, and next thing you know, it's working again. Papa John: That's from years and years and years of that, putting that instrument through its bad. I mean, patience. I got a story we were playing upstairs, so we took the organ upstairs. We were taking it up. So we put two by fours on each side so we could slide it up Joe: Oh, Papa John: And Joe: Like. Papa John: A rope and the leg and the guys up front in the back pushing and all of a sudden the rope broke. I said, what? So I run down, jump. It was like lined up with a door outside door, so I jumped out the door, jumped out the door. I heard it coming down, breaking all there was Joe: Oh, Papa John: There was lights on the sides Joe: Oh, Papa John: Broke every one. Joe: My God. Papa John: Everyone came flying out almost out the door on its back. Joe: My gosh, that's like those those cartoons, that piano like it's like the Three Stooges move in a piano. Papa John: It is, it is, Joe: Oh, Papa John: And Joe: My gosh. Papa John: Flipped it over, put the tubes back in they were all loose and brought it back and went right to work, Joe: I'm sure Papa John: Played a Joe: It's Papa John: Delayed. Joe: Amazing, it's amazing. Papa John: Now it's cursing everybody, Joe: Oh, Papa John: man. Joe: Gosh. So when you you started playing in Niagara Falls on Papa John: Right, Joe: The organ and Papa John: Right. Joe: You were still playing trumpet at the same time. Papa John: Yes. Joe: Ok, and then were you also maybe while you were playing organ in a band on stage, did you ever actually pull out the trumpet, play a trumpet solo also? Papa John: Yes, yes, Joe: You did. It's called. Papa John: Because I was still learning to organ man that and I said, man, I, I've got to do something else, throw me out the gate. Joe: Oh, my Papa John: So Joe: Gosh. Papa John: I was vocalizing and playing hard, but little by little. Left, left, left. the B captured my soul, man. I just I love the instrument man. Joe: So when you were first starting to play and you had to deal with the whole left hand independence and then laying down the chords and then potentially even soloing with your right hand over the left hand bass, Papa John: They Joe: Did you? Papa John: Move in all the time. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Yeah. Joe: Did you have in your early groups that you played in, were there bass players in those groups where you Papa John: With Joe: Didn't have Papa John: The Joe: To worry? Papa John: organ. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Not when I got the organ man. Joe: Really? So you never. Papa John: Even with that, even with the Spinet of playing the pedal, playing the pedal. Joe: Really? Papa John: So I thought that's how you played the B3 until I got hip. I never once I got the organ. Maybe a couple times in the beginning. Yeah, I have to admit, it was a couple few gigs, man. Yeah, couldn't Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Play it, I mean. Joe: I would think you'd want that safety net in the beginning when Papa John: I Joe: You're not. Papa John: Did. You brought it back, you brought it, you just brought that guy had a base electric base, he had like a fender, I guess. Yeah, because I was like sloppy Joes and, you know. Not you Joe: No, no, no, no. Papa John: Might think my hands were going like the bottom is trying to play with the top and it can I tell you, if you lay off of this a while, your coordination takes a minute to come back. Joe: That instrument will kick your ass. Papa John: Oh, double time. And. Joe: So these gigs early on in Niagara Falls, where they were a trio gigs, were they like organ Papa John: Quartet. Joe: Or organ guitar, drums or what was the combo? Papa John: That mostly that, and then it got to Jack's one word that good, I saw it again man, you know, so then it was Jack's trio with the guitar and then we got the sax it was a quartet Joe: Ok, so let's go ahead now back to Philly and you're there, you're you're working for Boeing, right? And you are working on airplanes and helicopters. Wow, OK. Papa John: Chinooks. Joe: And then and your playing out at night, about four or five nights a week. Papa John: Yeah, but yeah, but it got very hectic, they were it was during Vietnam that. Now, where they started working 12 hour days, 6 days a week 7. So I still played on the weekends and I have to keep playing, I would be I'd be kind of mental, Joe: Yeah, now I hear Papa John: You Joe: You Papa John: Know. Joe: And at this point, do you have any kids yet? Papa John: Yeah, have two. Joe: So you had did you have any before you left Niagara Falls? Papa John: Cheryl and Johnny Joe: You did so they were born in Niagara Falls and then was Papa John: Joey Joe: Joey Papa John: You're was born here. Joe: In Philly. Got Papa John: Yeah. Joe: It. OK. All Papa John: And Joe: Right. Papa John: then then reality started to coming around Joe: Yeah, yeah. Papa John: Oh, I got to do this traveling, babies. You know what I got to say? This man, my wife never gave ultimatums. I've been blessed a lot. So I just feel so blessed man. Go through all this stuff and the kids all turned out great. Lucky, I'm blessed! people say they're lucky and blessed and lucky. Joe: We're in Philly, you're working really hard for Boeing because the Vietnam War is happening, you Papa John: Yeah. Joe: Have you have two children. I know Johnny is the oldest or Papa John: Cheryl. Joe: The Cheryls's the oldest. Papa John: Johnny Second. Joe: Then Johnny is the middle. That's why Johnny and I get along, because we're both middle Papa John: Those middle Joe: See! Ballbusters Papa John: Aged. Joe: Both of us just Papa John: Now, Joe: Right in the middle. Papa John: What about the baseball bat boy? He Joe: And Papa John: Was Joe: Then Papa John: A big Joe: And Papa John: Bob. Joe: Then Joey enjoys the youngest. Papa John: We did just go. You're going to be 50 this year. Joe: Wow. Papa John: Johnny is fifty five and Cheryl's fifty eight. Joe: So she and I are the same age. Papa John: Yeah, 1962. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Now, October, she was born. Joe: Yeah, I was February, so Papa John: There Joe: I'm even Papa John: Is a Joe: I'm even older than her see Papa John: Couple months, and you could have been my kid man! Joe: Yeah, there you go. Papa John: Now lighting up! Joe: All right, sorry. Papa John: Nah man Joe: So we're there, we're in Philly, you're working, playing Papa John: Yeah. Joe: A little bit, but works, you know, a lot of work going on. So you're busy. Do you remember who was the first, most famous person you played with? Papa John: You try to think of, well, I played with Jimmy Smith, we played together Bobby C's to do what we did, an organ thing man. That was to me, that's my favorite. That was my. Joe: So that was Papa John: I Joe: Like, Papa John: Love the cat and Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Then George Benson and Steve Gadd. Now all them guys, I dug all those guys other cats too Jack McDuff God, he was a neat person, man. We did a lot jams, me, Jack, Gene Ludwig. Joe: I used to go see Jack McDuff up in Harlem when I lived in New York. Papa John: You were going to the right spot man that cat, what a soulful player he was. A lot of the guys that come up and play, you know, Bobby C's, we would cats come there and once they tell me name, Oh, Joe: I know Papa John: We Joe: It was. Papa John: Get a lot of cats came in like there was a guitar player there one day that played with Miles Davis . Joe: Now, we used to get a lot of incredible Papa John: Yeah, Joe: People, it was, you know, Papa John: It was a great spot. Joe: Yeah, we need another another place like that. Papa John: But that would be that wouldn't that be fun Joe: Yeah, Papa John: To Joe: But Papa John: Trade bands in and out Joe: But you played with a bunch of people like well before you came to Arizona, I mean, you're with all those Papa John: The. Joe: Heavyweights in Philly and you were telling me how even Dennis Chambers and you were really good Papa John: Dennis. Joe: Friends, right? Yeah, Papa John: Yeah, yeah, it's a real good. Joe: Right. Papa John: Your Joe: And Papa John: Good friends. Joe: And I remember when I was at the NAMM Show out in Anaheim, you had that residency gig during the week of the NAMM Show at Steamers. Papa John: Yeah, I did. Yeah, we just played the. Joe: Arturo Sandoval was on it, Papa John: Yeah, and Joe: Right, Ramon Papa John: No, Joe: Banda right? Papa John: He passed away, man. Ramone played, yeah, there was a guitar player can't think of his name, but he was a heavyweight too Joe: Oh, yeah, Papa John: Like Joe: Yeah. Papa John: We all get our shots. How about Joe Pesci? Joe: That's right, he sang, he Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Sang that night I was there sitting Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Right in front. Papa John: Yeah, Joe: That's a Papa John: Joe. Joe: Night that actually you let me sit in that night. So I got to play with Arturo and the rest of the guys. Yeah. Papa John: get your as up! Joe: Yeah, yeah, that was fun because there are a lot of I think I think that night, to be honest with you, I think if I remember correctly, Marcus Miller was sitting in the audience. Papa John: Yeah he was Joe: So Papa John: Were. Joe: Like when you pointed and I was already looked around the room and Joe Pesci was singing with you and I'm like, whoa, wait a second. But it was fun. I had it was a good time. Papa John: Joey too. Joe: That's right, Joey was on stage to right? Papa John: Yeah, yeah, what a night everybody was up there. That place is closed man. Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Is Joe: Yeah, Papa John: damn shame Joe: I know. Papa John: damn shame Joe: Yeah, so when you were in Philly, did you get up to New York, much to play. Papa John: Played a little bit in New York. Yeah, not not a lot, but a lot. I met a lot of cats in New York, I a lot of good players, but I did play there trying to think of some of the rooms. Joe: I know Philly had such a strong scene that, you know, Papa John: Ah man Joe: You probably Papa John: It Joe: Never Papa John: Was. Joe: Had to leave there to go play New York because it had its own. Papa John: We had and then I played to shore. I played in Atlantic City, I played at the Club Harlem with Manny Cambell and the Fiestas, and it was great man the ban was good too. He Be played vibes. We had a conga drummer, drummer, a horn player and a woman singer man, and in the back room there was a front room. We were playing in front of the bar, the back room, Sammy Davis Jr. playing with big band back there. Yeah, I mean, Club Harlem, Kentucky Avenue man. Across the street, Gracie,  Wild Bill Davis was there. Joe: And this was a separate room from any of the casinos. Papa John: Yeah, there was no casinos man this is 1966, '67 Kentucky was like all the clubs, like you went to Harlem or Buffalo and all that, that that's what Kentucky Avenue was all, had all the bands and mostly organ groups that was hot thing, man I got pictures, my wife and I got picture with her of people coming around and get a picture,  remember that? Yeah, you got a picture taken, Joe: Oh, you mean Papa John: There were. Joe: Like at the table, like they would do that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. It's also. Papa John: Back in the old days man, the old days man, let's see, you were just a baby because you were my daughter's age, I use to take the kids. I could get them into places. I'd take um. Joe: Yep, yeah, my father would do the same. Papa John:  Yeah man people would look, he was cool, he knew? He Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Knew. Joe: Yeah, it's the only way, right? It's the exposure. Papa John: Now, the kids loved it, Johnny played, Joey played, Cheryl played for a while, Joe: What she Papa John: You Joe: Play. Papa John: Know, Alto sax yeah in junior high. Joe: Yeah, and it was Johnny always drawn to the guitar. Papa John: Yeah, in fact he played trumpet for awhile. Yeah, and my dad was my dad was living with us, and then he got guitar and my dad could play his ass off too my dad, one of those old time musicians man Joe: Yeah, did he play in the in the army or the in the war during the war time or. No. Papa John: Too old man. He played with all the big bands like back, and he played with the Dorsey Brothers before the were famous when they were together, he told me they would argue from morning till night. I said, you sure they Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Weren't Italian? Joe: Exactly. Oh, nobody has seen anything until they see you and Joey and Johnny together in the same room. That right Papa John: Up Joe: There, that is gold reality TV right there, if I if I can produce that show. Papa John: Get a show, get one! Joe: Oh, Papa John: The. Joe: My gosh. Papa John: You are. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Papa John: We have to make you a part of it that you couldn't just sit out there and produce. Joe: So let's talk about your CDs, because I want to make sure I have the count right, but I count nine. Papa John: Nine. Joe: Yeah, Papa John: You Joe: That's Papa John: Got Joe: What I. Papa John: It, I got it, my wife put him in a picture frame. Joe: So do you have nine too is that, is that the count you have? Papa John: I that's that's what I have nine Joe: Yeah, because I have Papa John: That's on my own. Joe: So if I go from 19, so the first one I have is 1990 for "Doodlin". Is that correct? Papa John: That's it. That's the one that Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Was ninety Joe: It says nine. Papa John: Nine, Joe: It says Papa John: Yeah. Joe: 94. And then "Comin' Home" was released in 95. Papa John: That's the next one. Joe: And then "All in the Family" was ninety eight, and then I have "Hip Cakewalk", which was Papa John: That's Joe: Two thousand Papa John: It Joe: Two Papa John: For Joe: Thousand Papa John: Us, Joe: One. Papa John: Right? Joe: Right, and then I have "Walking Uptown" two thousand four. Papa John: That's one of my favorite one to go. Joe: And then there's two in two thousand six. There Papa John: "Jumpin'", Joe: Is. Papa John: "Jumpin'". And dadaji. Joe: "Desert Heat". That's correct, and then then we have two thousand nine, which is "Big Shot." Papa John: "Big Shot". Yeah, Joe: And then Papa John: I Joe: The Papa John: Forgot Joe: "Philadelphia Papa John: About that, Joe: Story" in 2011. Papa John: Yeah. That's the last one. Joe: That's the last one you put up a post, I think, on Facebook that that cool album cover. Does that mean there's something in the works? Papa John: I did that, I did that picture, by the way, I have an app that said, I'm going to go out here and start, man. I must have got a million hits. Joe: I know, Papa John: One day I'm coming out. We'll get it. Joe: See? Papa John: I just that's what I was doing, that somehow this is our clock. Joe: Oh, I see it moving in the background. Papa John: Yeah, my sister-in-law got it for us. I forgot about it. I would I would have turned it off and we had we had a dog and it's got all the Joe: That's Papa John: It's Joe: Also. Papa John: Got all the seasons on it Christmas. I don't know what that is pretty but I got them all memorized Joe: Yeah, Papa John: [scats] Joe: Yeah, how it Papa John: It's Joe: Long ago Papa John: Over. Joe: How long is that going to play? You know, we Papa John: It's Joe: Only Papa John: Over right now. Joe: We only have an hour. Papa John: There it goes. Hey, man, we only have an hour. Lighten up, take a break, you Joe: It's Papa John: Union Joe: Take a break. Papa John: Take a break? Joe: Is there any thoughts of, I mean or any conversation of a new new CD? Papa John: Yeah, I talked to Clark, Clark calls me about once a month. Wants to know how you feelin' and then he says, well, "When you come in the studio, Pop?", I got a bunch of stuff too I could do. I mean, I've been I don't you get ready now and have your ass in there. Unless you don't have time for. Joe: I always whataya kiddin' me...it would would be an Papa John: I Joe: Honor. Papa John: Love Joe: I'm Papa John: The. Joe: Looking at the names of all these people on these CDs and I'm like, damn, my name's not on that one, wait a second, my name's not on that one, no I'm only, kidding. Papa John: They were all done on the East Coast except Desert Heat and was with the Banda Brothers. Joe: Yeah, yeah, that Papa John: That Joe: Was special. Papa John: Was yeah, that was 05, I think, wasn't it, '06 Joe: In desert, he was '06, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Papa John: That's when I moved here Joe: Oh, that's when it was so it was two years after I moved here. Got it. Papa John: Yeah, that's right. You know how happy I am for you when I see all the stuff you're doing, man, I pray for this stuff for you. Joe: I'm just hustling, man, I got Papa John: Now, Joe: To just keep Papa John: Why Joe: I Papa John: You Joe: Don't Papa John: Got Joe: Like Papa John: The right? Joe: I don't like I don't like letting any grass grow under my feet. Papa John: And Joe, that's why you're going to do it, man. Joe: Yeah, well, you know what, it's I'm Papa John: That's Joe: Getting pretty Papa John: Why you're Joe: Old Papa John: Going to do Joe: If Papa John: It. Joe: Something doesn't happen soon. Papa John: Well, you can't go by now, what's going on, you knowthe epidemic or whatever the hell it is that's messed up, and the politicians, they're Joe: Yeah, Papa John: All nuts. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: I mean, so. And you're still making it. You're still doing it, man. So Joe: Well... Papa John: This is like a piece of cake after everything's straightens out. Joe: Let's hope so. We got to get back to playin' is what we had to do. Papa John: Love to man Joe: It's like Papa John: Our. Joe: Oxygen for us, you know, taking this away from us is this brutal. Papa John: You know, come here and playin' myself, and after a minute, like I tried a drum machine and I want to throw it through the window. Yeah, I try I just want to have something to play with somebody just. Joe: That's what we should do. I just throw my stuff in the car, come down there, we'll just do a little Sunday pasta dinner, but we'll Papa John: Yeah. Joe: We'll work up an appetite before that. Papa John: That would be fun Joe, I'm in! Joe: Swim a little bit. Papa John: It is our masks mandatory? Joe: No, I haven't been anywhere, you haven't been anywhere, right? Papa John: I feel like cabin fever, man, but I want to stick it out Joe: Yeah, you just Papa John: I'm Joe: Got to stay Papa John: Going Joe: Safe. Papa John: Nowhere. Joe: Yeah, both of you just need to stay safe. And Papa John: Yeah, Joe: How are Papa John: You, Joe: You going Papa John: Too. Joe: Out? Are you going out to get groceries and things like that or you having them delivered or what are you doing? Papa John: Laurine calls ahead and she goes, they throw him in the car in Joe: Good, Papa John: The back and Joe: Good, Papa John: Then she drives off Joe: Good. Papa John: Right now. Everybody out there that masks everybody Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Down here. Joe: Now Papa John: So. Joe: We wear it wherever we go, so Papa John: So do we... Joe: We'll cold, so did I miss anything that you wanted to talk about? I mean. Papa John: Well, just talking about my time on the railroad, Amtrak. Joe: Amtrak, that's right, that was after Boeing. Papa John: Way after I was playing in between all of that and then I went to Amtrak was the big one...I started as an electrician man, I start I had to learn, you have to go to school and stuff. And we needed I had my kids all grown up. And you're, like starting to go through grade school and middle school as Laurene and I are going to hang out, man. The railroad had a friend she had friends, lot of people on the railroad, and I got the job on the railroad in nineteen seventy seven. Joe: And there was a gap in between Boeing and that, so why did you leave Boeing? Just tired Papa John: Layoffs Joe: Of it. Papa John: Every 10 minutes. Government, government job and I went to Seven-Up for a while to the district sales manager and playing constantly, playing down the shore six nights. At Amtrak I became a supervisor at a big job, kept movin' and I was there 20, almost 30 years. Joe: As an electrician for Amtrak? Papa John: Let's do it in the beginning and end with electrical supervisor. We built substations, took care of all the new construction, but I was still playing Joe. I mean, my job, I was playing constantly. I had to come in to work, Saturday morning, we had to work every once in a while and I come in. Where are we? What is this? Where you go to get playin' and go to have breakfast or have a cup of coffee? So by the time you got home... Joe: Time to go right to the job. Papa John: Great. The music never stopped me, but thank God I went to the railroad because the railroad retirement is ridiculous. Joe: Yes, Papa John: So Joe: Something to be said for that, right? You know. Papa John: Yeah. I mean I never expected that. Never. That was so far from any of my thoughts. My Joe: Help. Papa John: Dad used to say when your dad said go to school, put something in that back pocket Joe: That's Papa John: What do Joe: Right, Papa John: You mean, good news, right? Joe: Yeah. Papa John: I was at your school, Fredonia, man. Joe: Yeah, because you were right out there, right? Papa John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, Joe: Yeah. Papa John: I worked, I did gigs there, I played yeah, well, I knew the guy who ran the station WBZ or something Joe: We forget what it is now. Papa John: Yeah, Fredonia is when I was out there, Don Menza was there, all cats who played with big bands, but that's a great music school man. Joe: Yeah, it was good when when I went, we were we were at at the peak of of what was happening with, you know, we had a student run jazz ensemble and competed at the Notre Dame Collegiate Jazz Festival, and those were run by the school. And we ran it ourself, you know. Papa John: The students you guys had a couple Joe: Yeah, it was fun. Papa John: You had some good players there, singers, players, if you wanted have somebody, go to the school, you had a great reputation Joe: Yeah, I got Papa John: And Joe: To play Papa John: Then. Joe: At the Tralfamadore Papa John: But Joe: Or. Papa John: Tralfamadore? Joe: Right. Papa John: The Tralf?. Joe: Isn't that what it was, The Tralf? That's what we called it. Right. For short, The Tralf. Yeah. Papa John: That's something man! Joe: And I spent when I was at Fredonia, I spent a summer in the Canadian side of Niagara Falls Papa John: Oh, Joe: Playing Papa John: Yeah, Joe: At that Papa John: We're. Joe: Amusement park that's right on the other side. Papa John: Right on the other side, I know, right off Lundie's Lane Joe: Yeah, and we played this little we did this doo wop show, it was Papa John: Of Joe: All Papa John: The. Joe: This company came and auditioned people at all the music schools for summer Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Jobs. Papa John: And Joe: So Papa John: You Joe: We Papa John: Got Joe: Got to hire. Papa John: Your. Joe: We got hired as a band. So it was my buddy on trumpet and a bass Papa John: The. Joe: Player friend, the sax player friend. And then we went there and played and we backed up these these two couples, that guy and girls Papa John: Right. Joe: That were doing this doo wop dancing and singing on the stage. Papa John: Ha Joe: We were Papa John: That's cool! Joe: The backup band behind them. We played a place called Lilly Langtry's Papa John: I know that is, oh Lilly...that's on Lundie's Land, you go up Lundie's Lane, the wax museum and. Joe: Correct, That's right. We actually were friends, so when we were when we were there because we lived there for the summer and these little apartments, the I think it was the either the tallest man in the world or tallest woman in the world. We Papa John: The woman. Joe: Literally yeah, we became friends with her and we would actually hang out at her apartment. And Papa John: She was cool man Joe: That's so Papa John: Or Joe: Funny. Papa John: That boy or girl, rah Joe: Yes, Papa John: Rah Joe: Yes. Yes, Papa John: Is just great Joe: Yes. Papa John: To leave it to me, to remember that stuff. Joe: It's so funny. Papa John: Remember the yard of beer? You went to the Yard In The Park when you had a yard of beer. Joe: I don't I don't know if I remember that. Papa John: The glass was a yard long filled it up. Joe: It's like those things that they walk around Atlantic City with, I mean, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Las Papa John: Where Joe: Vegas, Papa John: They get Joe: Those huge. Papa John: Yard In The Park, it was called, Joe: That's so funny. Papa John: I played all over the place and Toronto, but you had a good gig. Joe: I don't know about that, but Papa John: It was a good gig. Joe: It was it was OK for at the time we had some fun. So. Papa John: What year was that Joe, do you remember? Joe: It had to be eighty two or three. Papa John: Oh, you are young. You're like my daughter. Joe: Yeah, I yeah, I'm surprised, I remember that I don't remember stuff that far back, but. Papa John: I remember not if it's if I want to remember that Joe: Yeah, Papa John: This done that, then  Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Railroad, I retired. The pension is crazy. Joe: And what was this what year was that, Papa John: '05 Joe: And then literally a year later, you moving out to Arizona? Papa John: Yes Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe:  Papa John:  Joe: There's our organ guitar trio once Johnny gets out here and a couple of years, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Right. Papa John: We'll have some serious fun when. Joe: Hopefully we won't run out of places to play once we get kicked out of each one for being crazy. Papa John: Hopefully we WILL get kicked out. No, no, no, gigs are special you know,  we keep maintain part of the business man. You don't want to screw that up. Joe: So cool. So 2006, you retire Amtrak two thousand five, you pack up, move out two thousand six Papa John: Sold Joe: And Papa John: The crib back home, I Joe: You're. Papa John: Had a nice I had a nice crib too, that. Joe: But then you come out here and then and then we finally get to meet at one point, and then we play a bunch of gigs around town and. Yeah. Papa John: Yeah, we did. We played a lot man. You have to gigs you were getting gigs left and right. I went out there and start hustling your ass off. Joe: Hey, you have to, right? Papa John: Yeah. Joe: Can't sit by the phone. Papa John: No, what!? Joe: That's the that's the one thing that I just Papa John: Is Joe: Can't sit Papa John: All Joe: By the phone. Papa John: We'd be dead now you can use got to go out after man, but if you wait for the apple to drop off the tree, you'll starve to death, you got to go up and get it. His big thing was education and save your money Joe: And Papa John: To Joe: Save your money, well, you made Papa John: Get Joe: Him Papa John: An Joe: Proud Papa John: Education. Joe: Because you listen, you got yourself a nice a nice retirement package, right? Papa John: Well, I got lucky on that one man God, Thank Joe: You still Papa John: You. Joe: You still were able to maintain playing, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: You got an education Papa John: Oh, Joe: In the electrical field. Papa John: But Joe: What kind of car you have now? Papa John: Oh. Thirty nine Pontiac Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Hot Rod Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Yeah, man's got a big motor in three fifty chevy. All reworked, everything, everything's new and it's like a new car. Joe: How many times you get it out? Papa John: Well, right now, Johnny comes out, we take it out to terrorize the neighborhood, him and I put that car together. Joe: Oh, yeah. Papa John: Yeah, cut the frame off for a new frame underneath, it has disc breaks, power steering, Joe: What is Papa John: Big Joe: It again? Papa John: Motor, a thirty nine, nineteen thirty nine Pontiac, two door sedan. It's just it's a duplicate of a thirty nine Chevy. Joe: What is it like, is it blue or purple, one of the two, Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Which Papa John: Blue. Joe: One? Blue. Papa John: Yeah, Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Well, when you come down, will have to go out for a cruise man Joe: Yeah, I'd love to take that thing out. Papa John: It's fun man Joe: All right, Papa John: It's. Joe: We'll do it. We have a plan now. So we have a Papa John: Yeah. Joe: We have a Sunday pasta dinner. Papa John: A Sunday dinner, baby. Joe: But we jam first. And then we hop in the pool, get cooled off, then we come in and we eat our faces off. Papa John: Right, Joe: And then we Papa John: And. Joe: Go out for a little cruise when it gets Papa John: That's Joe: Cool Papa John: Right, Joe: Out, there Papa John: That's Joe: You go. Papa John: Well when we get done eating, we might not be able to move. Joe: That's true. So you might want to get everything done before we wat. Papa John: That one day you were making something, what was braciole that you make braciole? Joe: I have Papa John: You Joe: No. Papa John: Were cooking something, man. I don't know what it was Joe: I have no idea. I just made a killer designer for Jo Ellen's birthday Papa John: That. Joe: A couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Oh, maybe that's what it was. I put up Papa John: Yeah, Joe: The pot of the Papa John: I Joe: Sauce, Papa John: Love that Joe: The sauce boiling or the gravy, as we call it. Papa John: You call gravy. Joe: Yeah. I don't know if Papa John: You Joe: We're Papa John: Sauce Joe: Not Papa John: Tomato, Joe: Sure Papa John: Tomato, potato, potato, Joe: Exactly. Papa John: But some. Joe: You got to let us know if you're going to do a new recording so we can make sure we let everyone know. And like I said, as soon as all this pandemic stuff Papa John: No. Joe: Disappears, we see if we can get ourselves a gig or a concert somewhere again and get going. Papa John: Concert, Joe: Right. Papa John: I'd like to do that, yeah. Joe: We should get back at The MIM. Do another show up Papa John: I Joe: There. Papa John: Like the yeah, man, we could Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Papa John: Get a yeah, it was okay last time with nice man. Joe: Is there anything else that I missed? Papa John: Yeah, the gig in Albuquerque, wherever we were. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Papa John: Should have made a left turn at Albuquerque Joe: Oh, my gosh. Papa John: The Las Cruces Joe: Right, then we drive all the way there, we set up and then it poured Papa John: It rained Joe: And we couldn't play, right? We couldn't Papa John: That Joe: Play Papa John: They paid and Joe: And Papa John: We got Joe: They play. Papa John: Paid. Joe: So it was basically like a paid little two day trip. Papa John: Two day trip with pay Joe: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, Papa John: That was terrible. I wanted to play. Joe: No, I know. Papa John: Well, I know we weren't going to play when a guy took the B3. He said it's raining, you guys aren't playing, put it in a van. They left. I guess we're not playing. Joe: Remember, we tried to even talk one of the bars around that outdoor stage to let us play. Papa John: Across the street, yeah. Joe: Yeah, it's like we're already got paid, so just move it all into your place in play inside. Oh, gosh. Papa John: We didn't get. Joe: We can't say we didn't try. Papa John: That's where I met that trumpet player, he's on the East Coast now. Joe: Cool! Papa John: This has been a nice pod... Joe: Thanks, Papa John: Of Joe: Man. Papa John: Spaghetti meatballs. Joe: They go Papa John: And little braciole Joe: Right? Papa John: Yeah, Joe: I'm Papa John: My Joe: Really Papa John: Wife Joe: Excited Papa John: Made Joe: That you Papa John: It. Joe: Came on what'd she say. Papa John: My wife made angel hair bolognese Sunday Joe: Nice. Papa John: Scrambled meat. Joe: Yeah. Papa John: I'm glad I came on too Joe Joe: Yeah, man, it's nice Papa John: I Joe: To Papa John: Love Joe: See your face Papa John: That you Joe: That Papa John: Like that and I like Joe: I Papa John: Your face too Joe. Joe: Haven't seen you in so long, so. Papa John: I know there Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Has been a year!? Joe: I don't know. Could be, gosh. Papa John: No Joe: Like Papa John: Time. Joe: I said, my brain doesn't go backwards too well, so Papa John: Time man time Joe: I know Papa John: Is. Joe: I hear Papa John: Time Joe: Yeah. Papa John: Is on my mind, yes it is Ya know what, we should do all that stuff, do I get all those coveres I Joe: Yeah, Papa John: Love doing it to. Joe: Yeah, Papa John: My favorite Joe: Well, Papa John: Was Sly, Sly and the Family Stone. Joe: Um. Papa John: I use to love those...cover that stuff Joe: Yeah, Papa John: [sings] You might have... Joe: Well, we'll we'll have a chance again. Papa John: I hope so, man. Joe: We will. So, listen, man, I really appreciate you doing this. Papa John: Anything for, you know, you're the man, you're my friend, one of my best friends. Joe: It's nice to see you. It really is, it's nice to talk with you. Papa John: Nice to talk to you, too, man Joe: Yeah, man. All right. Well, again, thank you. You you're one of the best. And Papa John: No. Joe: You you've you've been incredible to me. So I appreciate you and I love you. And I thank you for being here. Papa John: Thank you, Joe, Joe: Ok, Papa John: And Joe: Man. Papa John: I love you, too, brother. Joe: All right, and we'll talk soon and we'll play soon Papa John: Hopefully has, God Bless! Joe: All right, man, thank you. Papa John: All right, bye bye... Joe: Bye...

  I had the distinct privilege to sit down with Simon T Bailey to discuss his timeless book, "Shift Your Brilliance". I met Simon in March of 2020 when he gave a keynote address at a conference I was attending and his infectious manner and positive energy, drew me in. I had to interview him and find out more about this man. In this interview, we explore his book "Shift Your Brilliance" because it is so incredibly timely with what's happening in the world today with COVID-19, so many people furloughed from their jobs and so many companies going under with the weight of an almost non-existent economy due to social distancing. I hope this interview provides some real life guidance to those of you who may be a little lost at the moment and not sure what you next move might be. If you can shift your brilliance in a new direction, you'll surely come out on top when the dust settles. Enjoy! Simon T Bailey: Simon's Website: Simon T Bailey Connect with Simon: LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simontbailey/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrilliantSimonT/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simontbailey Twitter: https://twitter.com/SimonTBailey Simon's Books: "Shift Your Brilliance" "Release Your Brilliance" "Be the Spark: Five Platinum Service Principles for Creating Customers for Life" "Brilliant Living: 31 Insights to Creating an Awesome Life" "Success is an Inside Job: Brilliant Service is the Bottom Line" "Releasing Leadership Brilliance: Breaking Sound Barriers in Education" "The Vuja de Moment: Shift from Average to Brilliant" "Simon Says Dream: Live a Passionate Life" Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Joe: Welcome, everybody. I'm really excited today to have Simon T. Bailey on the show, Simon and I met in March of this past year, but it was very briefly was passing in the hallway at a conference in Colorado. I shook his hand, told him how I loved the talk that he had just given the group. And then I was lucky enough to get him to say yes to come on to my podcast. So, Simon, welcome to my podcast. Thank you so much. Simon: Hey, Joe, good to be with you. Thank you for having me. Joe: Yeah, so I have one question before we even start, Simon: Sure. Joe: Why Simon T. Bailey? Simon: Because the "T is for terrific, you walked  into Joe: I Simon: It Joe: Said, Simon:  there, Joe: Damn, I should have guessed, I should have guessed. Simon: Though, the T is is a family name that my father gave to me. It stands for Theopolis, which is great. So Joe: Wow, OK, I was just wondering. Simon: It's a branding thing as well. Joe: So we are definitely going to talk today about your very timely book, which was published in 2014 called Shift Your Brilliance, Harness The Power of You Inc. Super interesting. I'm an audio book guy, so I listen to the audio book part, which for me is even better because I love your voice. Your laugh is probably the most infectious laugh that I've heard in such a long time. So that was great for me. But before we get into it, I just kind of want to lay a little groundwork about who Simon T. Bailey is. I know that from the book and from your talk that you gave out in Colorado, and I know you speak all over the world, that you came from the corporate environment. So you can start as far back as you want. I know the book covers some of your childhood, so it's completely up to you how far back you want to go. But I want to just lay a little groundwork so they know who you are and then we can get into all the other stuff. Simon: All , so give us two in a minute and a half or less, because it's important to what I'll share today, 14 years of age, mom and dad took me to Bennett High School or McKinley High School in Buffalo, New York, where I grew up, went out for football, basketball, got cut, went out for track and field. They said you're too slow that summer, attempted to commit suicide, didn't go through with it. Sophomore year, brand new high school teacher says to me, write a speech for the entire school. Absolutely changed my life. Ended up being class president. I moved to Atlanta, Georgia, dropped out of college after my first year, went back to college, took me ten years to finish my undergrad degree, started at a decent hotel making five dollars and ten cents an hour as a front desk clerk. That was about 30 years ago, fast forwarding got hired at Disney after a ten interviews over a ten year period. I stayed at Disney for seven years, left Disney after turning down for job same and a job saying that I wanted to be or I did an interview saying I wanted to become the number one guy at Disney that was put in front of that didn't quite work out. So I thought it probably best for me to find my happiness elsewhere. After Joe: But. Simon: Being married for twenty five years, went through a divorce and a video was posted to Facebook about me telling that story. That video has over 90 million views to date. And then from there I went through a bout of cancer. I am a cancer survivor, thank goodness. I have two amazing children. Twenty one year old son, eighteen year old daughter. And today I've worked with almost eighteen hundred organizations in forty nine countries just teaching a very simple concept that you have to shift your brilliance in the midst of uncertainty. I've written ten books, I've worked in forty nine countries and three of my courses are linked and learning. So that's just it in a nutshell. Joe: Man, oh, man, I'm tired just hearing that's amazing, that's truly amazing. And there's some of those things, obviously I didn't even know so and what I love about you besides the talk that you gave and how infectious you are and and it's and I even said it the other night, we were having a conversation and how I was having you on as a guest is that you're you're so positive. And it's it's and you you smile all the time, like every Instagram post, everything. It's just it's part of who you've become. And I think when I when I listen to the audio book and I heard you talk, I feel like you were the person at Disney that you've you're now trying to get at least the business people. Not like there's regular people that I know that this book and what you talk about attracts. But you were that person at Disney where it was just heads down working. And I think you even talked about a sport where you didn't even know the people that were part of your team or you didn't like you talked about getting reviews or something to that, where they just said if you actually knew the people you were working with and they knew you as a person, it would shift things for you. Simon: Totally, totally, I was so busy trying to climb the ladder of perceived success, in the words of Dr. Stephen Covey, only discovered my ladder was against the long haul. So I was the boss with an agenda instead of a leader with a vision. Joe: Yeah, it's it's really amazing. Well, I appreciate you giving us the background, I think now the people that are listening to this, they're in for a real treat. So I can let you just take take it from here and then I'm going to try to sneak in some of these things that I want to sneak in. But I really want you to get into the fact that you wrote this book in twenty fourteen. And literally it's almost as if you you could have written it in the beginning of March knowing that covid-19 was coming, because when I listen to it, it's, it's literally that, that everyone needs to be poked and say this is the time to do this, this is the time to shift your brilliance and figure out what it is. I keep preaching. No one's coming to rescue us. We've got to do this Simon: That's Joe: On our own. Simon: That's totally yeah, so when I when I wrote the book and it's so appropriate for now, I was holding on to the way things had always been going for me as my business. When I left Disney, I started speaking Friday in training consulting and I was thinking that's the way it was always going to but as you can imagine my entire world has been disrupted as as everyone else. And what I recognize is sometimes we have to let go of what is comfortable and convenient in order to embrace what wants to emerge. So everyone  now is experiencing what many will call V.U.C.A., volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity. So you have 40 million people that have been laid off. You have millions who have been furloughed. You have companies that have gone under. But also in the midst of that, there are some companies that are totally shifted what they have been doing and moving into a whole other direction. I was interviewing a company out of Baltimore and they are whiskey company, but guess what business they are in now, hand sanitizer, because they understand there's an opportunity to shift. So everyone is listening to us, has to begin to say, what about my career or my business? I could be doing this now for 18, almost 18 years since I left Disney. And I have to tell you, Joe, I have reinvented I'm on my fifth reinvention in 18 years because I have to shift. So I wrote that book from a deep place with this is one concept, and that is we have to implement vu ja de If deja vu has been there, done that, that's pre covid budget day is going. They're doing that. It's seeing the old and the new. The new and the old. Joe: Yeah, it's just really incredible, it's literally like the book was, I don't know how it did when it came out in 2014, I'm sure it did great because I was just so captured listening to the stories that you told in it. But, man, it's just like it was written for now. It's just unbelievable. Is it OK if I ask a couple of questions about it? OK, Simon: Absolutely! Joe: So there's a line in there that you talk about where you say we are spirit beings having a human experience. And I heard that and I was like, wow. So could you elaborate more on that? Simon: Yeah, so when I first started out years ago, I was invited to an event where Dr. Stephen Covey, the late, great Dr. Stephen Covey, author of Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, was the opening speaker, Libby Sartain, who at that time was the chief people officer for Yahoo! And I was the closing speaker. And I just wanted to sit in and hear Dr. Covey because I was so fascinated. And he made this statement, which was originally, I think, quote by Wayne Dyer, and he said, We are not human beings having a spiritual experience where spirit beings having a human experience. And when I heard a joke, it was like a joy bomb, like BOOM!. I was like, what's that? And what I begin to recognize is all of us, we have a spirit. But how we show up into an environment, we either are hugging people with our words or we're tearing people down with our words and and words impact our spirit because words carry energy. And so we are spirit beings having a human experience. I believe what we're going through  now is everybody is being spiritually reset. Whatever spirituality means to everyone, they are thinking about meaning, not just money. Yes, money's important, but they're thinking about is my life really meaningful to thinking about power, not just or they're thinking about purpose, not just power, but that I think the other part of the spiritual reset that's happened is that people are also thinking about moving from success to significance. And that's so important when you're on the spiritual journey. Joe: And then there was another line in there, and again, I remember now that you brought it to my attention that Stephen Covey had said that and you had heard it in that that event. But hearing it from you gave it a different meaning when I listen to the audio book. So I had to bring it up because it was just like, man, I got to remember that and just keep that in the forefront of my mind. But then there was another one which was live from the inside out. Simon: Mm hmm, yet when you look from the inside out, you break the cycle of fear and worry because see what happens is  now uncertainty and worry has driven up stress and anxiety. And when a person is stressed out and they are living in fear and worry, it actually slows down the human operating system. So when you live from the inside out, what you're saying is, I'm not going to allow the outside circumstances to dictate how I what I produce, how I show up, how I thrive or survive. I'm going to take control of the steering wheel of my life and drive into the future and not be driven by all the news around me that's living from the inside out now. Yes, we need to be informed. Yes, we need to be well read. Yes, we need to pay attention to significant notifications that hit our phones. When you live from the inside out, what you realize is life is not a remote control. You can change the channel on your tell-a-vision. So when I live from the inside out, I am literally forecasting my future instead of living in the predictions of the day. Joe: When we talk about the book, but what's the audience that really needs something like this? Simon: Yes, so the book is written to that person who say twenty five to fifty five and they have either been furloughed or they're back at work, they're waiting for the other shoe to drop because now there's massive pressure to do to do more with less and working now might be working remote. So they're having to deal with the new world. But it's also written to that entrepreneur who says, I've done X, now I need to do Y and Z. How do I begin to harness the power of what we've done to be relevant for where things are going? It might be that solopreneur or that person who said, you know what I'm thinking about this is the time to go for it. And literally, I give you the tips and techniques on how to shift your brilliance, because it's my exact story when I left is the question. My entire for one with significant housing stock took out a line of credit on the house. So when I wrote "Shift Your Brilliance", I was probably already 10 years into my business. But I was thinking what had made me successful ten years in 10 years would make me successful in another 10 years. And I was wrong. Joe: Again, I keep thinking that people just think the Calvary's coming, you know, Simon: Oh, no, no. Joe: It's. Simon: Listen, every industry that literally can be turned upside down is being turned upside down. When you hear about retail like Brooks Brothers, Neiman Marcus filing for bankruptcy, J.C. Penney. These are these are brands that you thought would be around forever. And they are they're just going to look different, Joe: Yeah, Simon: ? Joe: Yeah, and by the way, you would know Neiman Marcus because I've seen you dress, so I know that Simon: Good. Joe: I know they love they love seeing you walk in the door because I've seen sharp and really sharp. It's funny because I met you there because I own management booking agency here in Phoenix and Scottsdale, Arizona. And then we expanded into Colorado last summer. I spent six weeks there developing all these relationships to take what I've done here with success and move it out there. So I'm in the same boat as you. There was nothing going on. I'm just starting to put some entertainment back in the resorts. But when I work with these destination management companies who you know well through the corporate world, who books entertainment to the level of someone like you, they're starting to come to me going, OK, what are the virtual options? And so have you been doing some virtual speaking? Simon: I've done about 25 virtual events in the last 100 days, Joe: Wow, that's Simon: And Joe: Amazing. Simon: It is it has been just a rewarding experience and now I've told the team, hey, let's get it down. I can do two to three a day, you know, Joe: Yeah, Simon: Let's go. Joe: Yeah, Simon: Yeah, let's go. Joe: And where are you doing them from? Are you doing  where you are now or. Simon: Really  that  now and every now and then, I will put up, depending on the setting, I will, you know, just change my screen there and . Joe: Exactly, exactly. Simon: This is the world we live in. And, yeah, it's been a great experience. I really love this virtual setting and I can't wait for life to come back, but I'm totally fine with doing the hybrid. Joe: Yeah, I was just wondering, because I know that's how we met, so I was wondering how you're faring through all of this and how many times you've done the whole virtual the virtual experience. So and and while we're talking about live, when you did give that talk, I noticed that you very rarely stood on the stage. And I don't know how do you know the number of people that were there were like 15 or 18 or twenty five hundred. Simon: They were expecting to lose about twelve hundred. Joe: Twelve hundred, OK, so for me and someday I aspire to maybe public speaking, so we'll see if that happens, but that's why for me, it was so interesting to watch you and you were on the floor most of the time. And so why do you when do you choose to do something like that? Simon: So, so many times everybody is looking at the stage, the stage on stage, and what I really believe people really want is a connection. And can you imagine that was probably the last presentation that I've given with that amount of people where there was no physical distance yet we had even heard of social distancing. Joe: . Simon: . So what I like to do is I like to have a conversation with people. So me coming off stage allows me to be almost like a jazz artist in the moment. I can reflect. I know where we need to go. I'm going to I'm going to stay on time. But I also get to do things on the fly in the moment. And it can only happen if I'm looking face to face with the human being. Joe: Yeah, I thought it was really different because there were so many people there and I was close enough to the front and towards an aisle, so I was happy. But I think some of those people in the back might be like, I can't really tell what he's doing or where he is, Simon: Which Joe: But. Simon: Is why they've got the IMAX, so Joe: Yeah, Simon: I knew they had and they had the cameras and Joe: Yeah, Simon: They would project me on the screen Joe: Yeah. Simon: And good on the video as well, because on a video, if I'm only on stage, you don't see the audience. So for your purposes to come off the stage, you see the audience. It is spontaneous and it's in the moment. Joe: Yeah, it was great, I was captivated the entire time. I love listening to you talk, conscious mind versus unconscious mind, that also hit me when I was listening to the audio book. And I understand it because I work on at least my own. I try to do meditation when I can remember to. It's tough. I was in a really good routine at one point and I slipped a little bit. At least I'm doing yoga almost three times a week. So it's Simon: Very. Joe: It's at least a little bit of a balance. But can you go into that a little bit more? Simon: Yeah, so one of the things I really believe is, as you know, in the unconscious mind, we just do things automatically, like if you get in, you drive in your car, you're going to go the way you always go. It's just unconscious. But when you become conscious, you're paying attention to what am I thinking? Thoughts, what am I saying? Words, and then what is the habit or behavior that I'm doing? And then what? It's that slight adjustment that I need to course correct in order to get better. So I'll give you a prime example. I've been working on losing weight and this has just been an ongoing battle for 20 years. So I decided during this COVID-19 time that my health coach sent me a Fitbit. So I got the Fitbit and it's monitoring my walk. So I go on a walk every morning. I get in at least seven to eight thousand steps within forty five minutes. But then I come. I came back home and I started doing push ups. Just ten push ups and sit ups will now up to 40. Now, I don't say that to be braggadocios or anything, but here's the deal. When I became conscious that I really want to lose weight, I start I stop focusing on losing the weight and focused on a healthy lifestyle, some conscious of that. I work out that I sleep. Did I drink my water? I got my water here. Did I actually take my vitamins? How am I eating better? So it's becoming conscious to say there's something I have to do every single day to move towards where I'm going. And I'm happy to say that I lost ten pounds over the last six weeks, but I have a good 10 to 15 to go and I'm excited about it because it's a conscious, healthy lifestyle instead of I have to lose weight because now the emphasis is on losing instead of maintaining and being healthy. Joe: No, well, that's great, congratulations, And see, and that's what I like about your post and when I watch your videos and is that you take things that so many of these people have been hearing for years and years, but there's a way that you word things and you shift things in your speech or you change the way someone thinks about something. And it's sometimes just that shift alone helps people to then understand it better and say, I can do that. And it's Simon: This. Joe: It was it's literally doing the same thing, as was mentioned five hundred other times, but it's the way it was said or the way it was presented. And that's what's cool about you. That is. Yeah. Another thing that popped out and stop me at any time where you want to dig in deeper to anything in the book. These are all the things that just jumped out at me. So information to revelation, that's a strong phrase. Simon: Yeah, so what I have discovered over many decades of studying, researching and really being mentored by very, very wise men and women, is that information is knowledge. OK, but then the next level below information is understanding, which is comprehension. So, for example, when I go to get my driver's license, I have read everything that I need to know to get the license. That's information. That's knowledge. But it's the understanding that if I don't stop at the stop sign and a cop sees me, I'm going to be pulled over and given a ticket because I ran through a stop sign. So now I have understanding to stop at the stop sign, to stop at the red light. It's not just information, but then the next level down is revelation and revelation is application. So car example, if I'm in my car driving, as my dad used to tell me, you have to drive for the car in front of you and the car behind you. I grew up in Buffalo, New York. So dealing with snow all the time. You know, if you're driving, you don't want to pay attention to the snow bag because somehow the car is going to veer over. So. So you have a revelation that I want to look straight ahead. Simon: I don't want to end up over there, but it's it's like that causes you to drive straight ahead and avoid an accident. So when I talk about my information revelation, it's really understanding that sometimes we can have information that is a mile wide but only an inch deep. And when I moved to revelation, I have the ability to go three to four levels down in in whatever I'm working on. So when we look through this COVID-19 time. All , let's just look at it from a revelation standpoint. So the first is PTSD is going to be at an all time high because there's fear, stress and worry on the planet. . We also understand that that the magnetic fields, climate change, everything is just being turned upside down. We also then recognize that industries are collapsing and being reinvented. The fourth level is we also realize that during this time that corporations see this as an opportunity to furlough and to lay people off and never bring them back, because we are in a world of automation, algorithms, artificial intelligence like never before. But the fifth level, which is so I think even more powerful, we also see the companies that have cash who have been sitting on the sidelines waiting. Simon: They're going to poach and buy up companies. So if you remember, just a few years ago, Apple had over one hundred and seventy billion dollars in an offshore account. And due to the Patriot Act, they could bring it back and not have to pay as much. But when you have that much cash, you could go and buy companies. Warren Buffett, the Oracle of Omaha, they have over a hundred billion dollars of cash sitting and waiting. So when everyone is running scared and worried as as a good friend of mine, a hedge fund investor, he said, Simon, the money is made in the dip. You don't make the money at the top of the mountain. You make it when everybody is running scared. So when you think about revelation, it's going five levels deep, saying, what do you see that others don't see? What what are you noticing? What's the budget day? Because we will hear of companies that will literally come through this that time. And we're like, where do they come from? Because they decided to play another game. They shifted their brilliance and what the opposite direction. So everyone was zigging. They were zagging. Joe: Yes, so let me ask you this, when you wrote this in 2014, what sparked it? Like I can see you writing it now, like I can see you writing it on March 15th going well. I need to write this because we're in some deep stuff  now. So if I really put my head down and I can get this done in 30, and that's another thing I'd love to do some days, write a book. But if you put your head down, you could have maybe finished it by April 15th and now it would be out. But it makes total sense now. And that's why when I listen to it, I was like, gosh, this is like he he knew it was coming. It's like, well, what made you write it in twenty fourteen. Simon: My business had dried up. I was holding on by a thread Joe: And what was Simon: Business Joe: That just Simon: Wise, and Joe: Was that Simon: Yes, Joe: Speaking and Simon: I was Joe: Coaching? Simon: I was I wasn't getting the bookings at the feed that I needed, because when I quit my job, my wife, my then wife didn't work outside the home. So everything was on me. And we had young kids, mortgage, private school, the whole nine yards. So the business wasn't coming in and and the book sales weren't moving. We had a consultant project that had come to an end that had kind of given me a buffer. And so literally it was dry as toast business wise. And I said, you know what, I got to shift what I'm doing. I've got to think differently. And that's when I began to realize I'm not in the business. I'm in the content media distribution business. And the money is in content. That's what I remember at Disney. So I recognize if I didn't shift my my brilliance and reinvent and let go of what had been working and move into another direction, I probably wouldn't be here today talking to you. So what I realize is I can always do the speaking. But then I started adding coaching. I started adding training, I started doing online learning. And that's when I got connected with the folks over at then it was Lynda.com was called LinkedIn Learning Now and they said, you need to put your course into micro content. I was like, what's micro content? And there they're like three to five minutes of the snippet where you don't give it all away, but you chuck it down and people can access it. Twenty four, seven, three sixty five. Joe I had never heard of it. I was like what? I've always delivered on stage. But now all of a sudden a new opportunity came out of nowhere. And it's kind of like when Netflix had an opportunity to be purchased by Blockbuster and Blockbuster didn't see it will look more. Netflix is now and Blockbuster. ? So I had five when I wrote the book. Do I want to be Netflix or do I want to be Blockbuster? Joe: Wow, and did you is it basically the book, did it come as you were making this transition yourself? Were you take would you take everything that you sort of did and put it into the book as you were physically working on yourself and mentally and emotionally and whatever your transformation is, basically this book during 2014. Simon: So you ask a very important question, what a lot of people know, the book that came out in twenty fourteen was actually a book that I had written back in 2008 during the financial meltdown, Joe: Wow. Simon: And it was a different title. So the book has gone through three title changes and twenty five rewrites over almost two to three year period because I had to live through the shift. So the reason some of the words pop off the page from a just an energetic standpoint, because I wrote it from a deep place I was living, I was in the thick of it, so I was phoning it in. It was literally my life. I had to change the title because when I went to a publisher there, "Vuja de Moment", that's, you know, that's like esoteric. What the great  for the average person could understand Joe: . Simon: It. So what if we do this together? Like, no, Shift Your Brilliance. And I said, OK, that's what I'm living. But I had to live through it in order to write about it. Joe: Yeah, that's incredible. It's and you could tell and I really hope a lot of the listeners and viewers of the YouTube channel will go in and get the book because I'm doing it like obviously I have no choice. So it's so funny. I'm a musician at heart. I actually went to school out at Fredonia. Out where? Simon: Oh. Joe: Yeah. And and I played a lot in Buffalo. I played at the Lafayette Taproom. I don't know if that was there when you were there. I don't know. Simon: We Joe: Yeah. Simon: Got a good. Joe: Yeah, I got a I got a buddy that lives in Williamsville. Yeah. So when I found out you lived in Buffalo, I think man, when I picked that school to go to college and I was waking up at eight o'clock in the morning to go to theory and walking through four feet of snow, I was like, what were you thinking? Simon: Wow. Joe: Gone to Miami or somewhere. Oh, this is a great phrase. Broadband results on a dial up network. I love that. I heard that. I was like, gosh, I got to make signs of all of these things and just put them around my office. Simon: You have to evaluate how often are we upgrading what we're doing and here why this is why this is important for everyone listening to us from the time Apple releases the iPhone. OK, over many years, . The iPhone had 18 upgrades from two thousand seven to twenty nineteen eighteen upgrades. Every upgrade of the iPhone, a camera was better. More storage on and on. But what's interesting, if you look at that over 12 years, 12 times, 12, 12 years, 12 months is one forty four, one forty four divided by 18 upgrades simply means every eight months Apple was upgrading what they were doing because if they didn't, everybody else out of the market would catch up. So when I made the statement, we sometimes want broadband results by using dial up methods. It's the challenge that if I'm not upgrading my mindset, my skill set, my will set, then there's somebody else that's catching up when I'm asleep. Joe: People should make that sign and just put it somewhere, especially during this time  now, you know what I mean? Just trying to get the word out to say this is this is like of we've been given. What did I say? I said something about where you thought you had a deadline March 1st for some assignment a teacher gave you and the biggest gift and you totally hadn't done a thing. And the biggest gift that you got was the teacher gave you six months to get it done. And I Simon: That's. Joe: Feel like this period of time, I don't know if this will ever happen again in history. Like I went through 9/11 with an office in New York, like I owned the company. I was on 38th Street and Broadway. Everything shut down just like this. And now obviously we got hit a lot harder than the rest of the country because New York just stopped. The rest of the world, paused for a moment and then started to pick back up. New York just stopped. So I've gone through that. And then, like you said, we've gone through the 2008 crisis and then now this. And when each time these things happen, I was less stressed because I I knew that I would just figure out a way and shift and change and pivot and move on. So I never even though I my company was just slamming up and told when we were out in in Colorado every couple of days, I'd get a phone call from another client because I book a lot of resort entertainment here and it would come in little dribs and drabs and say, hey, I think we're going to have to cancel the music. Things are starting to get a little weird here. And I'm thinking, OK, and then it just hit. And then everyone call like within four days and said we're I need everything canceled until further notice. I was like, oh my God, now. And but I never stressed about it because I knew I was going to pivot and do something different. And I was able to finally start my podcast, which I had put down on a piece of paper. And I think in twenty fifteen. So here we are, twenty twenty. And I finally have the opportunity to get it . Simon: That's so that hey, that's so good. Same thing with me. We had over six figures worth of business disappeared seven days Joe: And. Simon: That night and some of it canceled, some of it moved to next Joe: Mm Simon: Year. Joe: Hmm. Simon: Some of it they just we never heard back from that. They just and then we also had to refund about five figures of of money back to folks who just wanted their money back. You know, Joe: Yeah. Simon: And what I recognize, I can either stay bitter or I can get better. And I was already working on some new things that I said are, let's hit the gas. Let's go. Joe: Yeah, yeah, I hear you, man. OK, here's another phrase that I heard in the in the audio book, Make a U-turn. I don't remember the context of it, but I'm hoping you do. Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I'm sitting at the beach and on the way to the beach with my family because living here in Florida, we're really big beach people. And you know how you see a sign that says you're so many miles away from the destination? Well, I thought, hey, I know a better way how I'm going to get there. Well, I went almost 30 to 40 minutes in the wrong direction, so I had to make a U-turn to come back because my my my wife had said to me at the time, you know, you should turn there. And I'm like, no, I got, you know, typical guy, . All directions. Joe: , , . Simon: So clearly, I'm sitting up, sitting by the pool the next day and I got a little drink with a pink umbrella and it hits me what happens when a person is heading in a direction and they never make a U-turn and see what I say, U-turn. It's not just the letter U. It's YOU u turn. Because when you turn, that's when you notice all the opportunities and possibilities that were waiting for you to make a turn. But if you never make the turn, you can miss it. Joe: And it's so funny because I think having GPS now has saved a lot of arguments in cars with the guys because we're always , we'll go out of our way to just say, no, we didn't miss any turn. Fail forward... Simon: Yeah, you know, in the dictionary, failure comes before success, and I'll never forget I went to speak for the CEO Council of Tampa Bay, and during the debrief time, one of the executives said that he had he gets out of failure award every quarter. And the failure award is to encourage his team members to fail. And I happen to go back and talk to them again. And I said, do you still give out the failure award? He says, no, we changed it. We changed it to fail faster. And what he was saying is so many people walk on eggshells at work. They don't want to break out and do anything that's out of the norm because they want to play it safe. And real breakthroughs comes when you walk on the edge, when you do something that you haven't done before. That's where the breakthrough is. So failure comes before success. If you go to the dictionary, fail faster because failure is not a bad word. It's only feedback. And the quicker you fail, then you can quickly see what won't work. Listen, I have failed more times than I can count on both hands. ? But I can tell you those failures have informed some of the successes that we've experienced as well. Joe: Yeah, so it's too bad the word has such a bad connotation to it, because you're , it's just it's just a flare. It's just, hey, this this wasn't  or something didn't work. But instead, it makes you feel as if you're less of whatever you're trying to do, whether it's less of a human, less of a father, less of a business person, less of whatever. And it's too bad it has that that feeling or that label attached to it. Simon: Yes, Joe: You know, and Simon: Yes. Joe: Like you just worded it, it's it's you need those things in order to know if you didn't have those signals, how would you know that something was wrong or that you need to change? . Simon: Exactly. Joe: Ok, you're going to have to help me on this one because it's Chapter seven. And all I put was it's about today. I assume it's about the time we're living in. But I didn't put any more than that. Simon: Yes, so what I was really getting at about today is so many times we are future focused that we forget to be present in the moment today. And if we focus on today, tomorrow, it's going to take care of itself. But who we are today goes into our future, waits for us to get there and says, welcome, we've been waiting for you. So what are you doing today? Is this the highest and best use of your time today? Joe: Are you in your space  now with what's happening and the pivot's you're making, the changes you're making, how much different do you feel than you did when things were rocking and rolling in January of this year? Simon: Yeah, you know what, I have to be really, really real with you. I struggled for about a good thirty to forty five days when this first first of the year I was rocking and rolling. I was in my groove. I was great. Life was wonderful. I've been home since obviously March 13th. And for a few of the weeks, I just was down in the dumps. I was ticked off. I was like, oh my goodness, woe is me. What's this virtual thing? What, what, what, what, what. And then. And then I said, Wait a minute. Hello, buddy. You know, a little of your cooking, if Joe: The. Simon: Not a little bit. So I got up and I looked at my wounds and stopped crying  over spilled milk and all of the contracts that it cancelled and realized entrepreneurship is not easy. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it, Joe: A man, Simon: But. Joe: Gus. Simon: You know, you don't earn your stripes, entrepreneur, when you're on top of the mountain in the valley, when no one is coming to save Joe: . Simon: You, the phone is not ringing and you're looking at your bank account and say, I need to make a payroll. Joe: Yeah, Simon: And so we mentioned the IRS, Joe: Yeah, Simon: . It's a real brother. Joe: Yeah. Simon: It is real. And that's what I just said. OK, I've got a choice to make. First quarter got second, third quarter, it's going to look a little bit different, so I told our team we're not going to dial for dollars to try to get business. We're just going to love on people and help them understand that serving is the new selling. So who could we serve? So we just reached out to clients and say, hey, we'll do a free virtual whatever you need, bring your team. And I just started doing a ton of those. And it's so rewarding. And then almost counterintuitive, we started getting calls for business Joe: Yeah. Simon: And it's just like we weren't even setting out to do that, but it just happened. So, yeah. Joe: Yeah, and I was curious because, like I said, you never know what's going on behind the curtain with anybody, ? And you Simon: Yes. Joe: And I don't know each other that well, but there's something that just comes through the screen, comes through on the videos, definitely when I'm there in person with you. And to me, I would have been that person that had gotten down and I flowed  through. Like people were just like how people are calling me How, because I, I, I think we sent out probably over one hundred, ten, ninety nines for twenty nineteen because we have so many entertainers on our roster and it's literally everything across the board and they're all reaching out. How are you holding up. Because they knew everything dried up and I was like man and I know people think I'm nuts, but this was such a blessing for me because I just needed this time to do other things. And, and and I have I have not stopped with someone as positive as you. I wanted to just kind of get a feel for how does Simon T Bailey handle a situation like this to me? He'd be like, oh, we got this. And so I was just wondering if and and I appreciate you explaining that you aren't the superhero that I think you are, that you did have your moment, which is very human. But like you said, you you lick your wounds. You stood back up and said, OK, now it's time to get busy and stop crying. . Or whatever. Simon: And you know, when I came out of this fog, I realized I needed to start cooking, so I started cooking. I've learned how to cook a little bit enough to survive. I stop binge watching on on everything. That was all. I turn the TV off. I started reading. I started writing, I started thinking and I started doing Zoom calls, almost like as a mastermind with different people from different areas of business, just getting input insight. And all of a sudden I was like, OK, wow, OK, here's what we need to do. And once I got into the groove, because I love all things business and I love what I do, I just start seeing all the opportunity. You and I said, OK, we're going to have to come to this. But probably the most important and I would be remiss if I didn't say this COVID-19 and my my my prayers and heart goes out to all of those who've been directly impacted in either losing a loved one or have been impacted by it. But for me, it has been a time for me to get closer to my children. I've got a twenty one year old sophomore in college, Daniel, a daughter who graduated. She's the COVID-19 graduate, you know, graduated from high school to head the college. Interesting time of life. Two kids in college, ? So I'm like, OK, I'm writing checks  now. Joe: Oh. Simon: It's just like in school you go to school at seventeen thousand dollars a year. I'm like, oh, Joe: Oh, Simon: Like, Joe: Man. Simon: Yo. But here's what I did during this COVID-19 time. I hired both of them as my research assistants. So every Sunday night they have to read a book that I have purchased for the different books, business books. They have to listen to a podcast, listen to a YouTube video, watch or view an article, and then they have to write a summary and answer seven to nine questions. They have to turn it in by Thursday at five p.m. I pay about twenty dollars a day. They could take Friday off and we're already seven weeks into this. And it's all the things that Dad said you should know. Now I'm paying them to learn because it's actually research for another book that I'm working on, but it's probably closer to my children. This is your covid-19 time, so I'm just eating it up. Joe: That's awesome. Are they going to school there where you can see them? So they're going you're in Florida, ? You're Simon: Not in Florida, Joe: At. Simon: So so my son is online and my daughter, believe it or not, she's actually going to go to campus, the private school, private college, and she's going to their class ratio is maybe one professor to 20 students. So they're just going to practice physical distancing and she'll start in the fall. But I'm excited for them. But we've gotten closer Joe: Yeah, that's great. Simon: And so it's been good. Joe: Yeah, are your Simon: Yeah. Joe: Beaches open or closed? Simon: The beaches are open, you know, here in Florida, we we kind of march to the beat of a different drummer and we love our beaches. Joe: I don't blame you, I I grew up on the East Coast, so I'm from New York originally, so. Simon: Oh, Joe: Yeah, Simon: Yeah. Joe: I don't blame you. Brilliant versus average. Simon: So average living is dead, as we would say here in the south, that dog won't hunt. So the days of doing average work with an average attitude is gone um average people show up to collect a check. Brilliant people show up to add value. What I discovered after interviewing top performers, those who got promoted, who were promoted over time, they discovered that a paycheck is given to people who show up, but opportunities are given to people who work and think beyond what they're paid to do. That's a difference between average versus brilliant. Joe: So you can help me with this, because I I and I was there like I'm not I don't ever see these things as if I had all the answers. I'm fifty eight. I'm I'm a late bloomer, like, you know, I'm working Simon: Young Joe: Now. Simon: Man. Joe: Yeah. I'm working on this stuff as if I'm reinventing myself. And I feel like so many people get stuck in thinking they can't do things and I don't know where that comes from. I know it's fear is part of it, but there's got to be a way to say, listen, all the people that use you look up to or you see or you aspire to become or they all they all have to figure it out the same way we all put our pants on one leg at a time type thing. . So how is it to how do you try to get people to shift their their frame of mind to say, listen, you can do this just as much as anyone else. It just takes hard work. But other than that, some of these people are like lifelong learners, but they literally don't do anything . They take course after course, conference after conference, seminar after seminar or whatever, and they just don't do anything with it. Simon: You know, it's it really comes down to something so simple and not to be simplified, but there's a Yiddish proverb that says the only person that likes change is a wet baby. And what I've discovered, the reasons people don't go for it is because they don't want to change. So think about it. When you first learn to ride a bike, probably you fell, ? You perhaps started your business. You started had some success, but maybe experienced a little failure. It was a change that you had to make. Just look at this whole virtual world like everybody now understands Zoom. But when they first heard Zoom, you're like, no, no way. Or you could get changed. All of a sudden you're telling other people, did you know that you can go in the chat and you could do this? You could do that. So until people are willing to take just a little step, I don't have any entrepreneurs in my family. I'm the first one in my family to leave a nine to five and venture out into these uncharted waters. Why do I why did I do it? Well, first of all, it was a dream, but a dream until you put feet to it. And it's just something in the sky. You got to move every single day. And until people are really ready to change, they don't want it bad enough. You got to be hungry and go after it. Joe: Yeah, I guess that's just it, , it's not it's not even the fear, because if you want to bet enough, you'll push the fear aside. Simon: Anything you want, your first car, your first home, your first job, you become laser focus and you go after it. Joe: Well, this brings me to the last thing I had on my know, which was and this is perfect shift or be shifted, ? Simon: When you look at that work shift, shift, if we were to break that down, simply means see how I fit tomorrow, see how I fit tomorrow shift. That's the acronym. So if if I don't shift, see how I fit tomorrow, I will be shifted by everything in every one. So let's look at a prime example. How many malls are going to survive after this? COVID-19 malls are going to forever be changed. But guess what? If they don't adapt and come up with a new model, the Amazon of the world is literally going to shift and replace them. And if it's that simple, so everyone listening to us  now, they have to say, don't wait for the tap on the shoulder or the phone call with your boss. You shift before you shifted. So how do I begin to look at my workplace through a fresh lens if I'm an entrepreneur? Who are the top 20 percent in my field? What are they pivoting to? What are they doing? How do I begin to ask a different set of questions that allows me to shift before I'm shifted? Joe: Yeah, and that's , this is what we're talking about now, the Calvary is not coming . You have to shift, you have to do it on your own or you're going to be shifted for sure. And it might be wherever. Simon: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Is there anything else about the book you want to talk about before? I don't want to keep you we're just about at an hour. And I know you're a busy man. So is Simon: One Joe: There. Simon: Thing, there are exercises in the book that I encourage each person to go through, and also we have an online course called "Shift Your Brilliance" system that people can walk through to take their teams through it. And we've gotten rave rave reviews from people who've gone through the course, and it's at simontbailey.com. Joe: Awesome, so I'll put all of this stuff in the show notes for everybody so they'll have all the links. What is the best way to get in contact with you? Simon: Yeah, they just go to simontbailey.com, "T" for terrific, Joe: Exactly. Simon: As we really Joe: Love it. Simon: Got to. Joe: So my my middle initials, P. So I can't say P for perfect, because that's not going to fly. Simon: P for Powerful. Joe: There you go. OK. I like that, OK. Like I said, I'll put all of that in there. I can't thank you enough for doing this. I you know, I respect you so much. I love watching all your videos, Instagram stuff that pops up. So it's super inspiring to me. Someday if I can get my speaking act together, maybe I'll ask you for advice someday on how I get my first one and how I Simon: Oh. Joe: Can get to the point. And maybe we'll share a stage someday before I take a dirt nap or say. Simon: Thank you. Thank you so much. Joe: Thanks. Thanks a lot for coming on here again. I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart, I really appreciate your time. And it was an honor to speak with you. Simon: Thank you, Joe. Joe: Ok, man, you take care of yourself. Simon: Take care.

I sat down with my yogi Alex Schimmel from LifeTime Fitness here in Phoenix, AZ. Because I believe the health benefits of yoga are too important to ignore or at a minimum, spread the word, I had to have Alex on to share his knowledge with all of you, my listeners. If there is no other exercise you ever do, you MUST do yoga to stimulate every area of your body. It's amazing how using your own body weight in various poses, can make you really strong and get you in the best shape of your life. ********** Styles of Yoga taught at Life Time Fitness FIRE (HIIT)- Experience our new high-tempo format that blends intense anaerobic exercise with recovery periods ROOT (Fundamentals) - Start here and begin to understand yoga movement while holding the body in long basic poses SOL (Guided) - SOL is a guided yoga format that provides direction throughout from supportive teachers in a dynamic vinyasa format FLOW (Vinyasa) - Try our new guided practice where your teacher provides more deliberate cues throughout class SURRENDER (Yin) - Experience long connective tissue stretches and meditative breathing for greater breathing and self-acceptance BE (Meditation) - Develop a conscious, calm mind through meditation with a focus on breathing Alex's Links:"Inspire The F*ck Out of People" - eBook Presale Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theyogageneral/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alexander.schimmel.5 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-schimmel-374484a/ Email: schimmelyoga@gmail.com Alex Schimmel - Life Time LifePower Yoga Boutique Manager LifePower Yoga Teacher Training Faculty LifePower Yoga Master Trainer https://youtu.be/vo_c_5pILKU ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe:Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Alex Schimmel: Joe: Ok. Today, my guest is Alex Schimmel. Alex and I met over at Lifetime Fitness in the Biltmore area. And Alex is the yoga manager over there. And I was super excited to take as many yoga classes as I could. And luckily, Alex is the person over there that we really fell in love with. The way he teaches is his demeanor, everything about what he does. So, Alex, I'm really excited to have you here. And thanks for taking the time to do this. Alex: Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe. A pleasure. Looking forward, Joe: Yeah. Alex: You get to know each other better. Joe: Yeah, man. So my first. What I want to do first is just get to where we are today in the sense of how you got into this. I would I would assume that, you know, you took yoga like me, and then it became more of a passion. And then you became a yogi. But what can you go to when you started? Why you did it? How long you did it? Before you decided to make the jump to be a yogi. And and then we'll go from there. Alex: Yeah, for sure. So I'll give the abbreviated version, because it could be pretty long, but so my mom's a yoga teacher, so I've had yoga in my life, like, forever. I remember being a young kid maybe like seven or eight years old, and my friends would be playing wild in my house. And my mom would like eat. Guide us through relaxation in my living room. Like, you know, just to get us to probably calm down is it's probably not just to show us yoga, but to help us chill out a little bit. And so I used to go to my mom's yoga classes and I was like a little kid. And then my teenage years kind of rebelled against it. I thought the yoga was something that just like women do. Just people my mom's age did. So I wasn't really too open to it. And then towards the end of high school, I started to just get more like into spirituality. I read some spiritual books as I was given a book, The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, by Deepak Chopra. And there's a lot of yoga philosophy in it. And it was things that I really like. It made sense to me. And it was the first time that because I wasn't really religious, I grew up Jewish, but not really like strong in religion. Alex: And those that that book and those spiritual teachings, it just it just resonated with me. And so that kind of open my eyes a little bit. And then I had an injury. I was a baseball player in college and I hurt my shoulder just playing like backyard football. And to kind of help heal that, I started to get into yoga, go to my mom's yoga classes again and. Soon after. I noticed that yoga was like. Not only did it make me feel better in my body, it also really helped me balance my schoolwork and just help me. Like I felt like it was just making my life better. And a lot of ways. And then my mom encouraged me to do this like two week teacher training. That was when I was like 19. I was my first teacher training. And that was really for my for my own knowledge. I wasn't really sharing it yet. But it was something that I knew enough where I could practice in my living room at home. And then fast forward a few years. My senior year of college actually got diagnosed with Crohn's disease. And Joe: Allow. Alex: I was a pretty tough, pretty tough time in my life. There was a lot of challenges. And yoga then became like instead of it just being an exercise, it really became my medicine. And to this day, it's still my best, my best medicine. So that was like that was the moment in my life where yoga was no longer just like a hobby or something. I did sometimes just like it's what I needed. And it became a daily way of living again, not just what I did on my map, but like a way that I live and honor all my relationships. And then after college, I graduated and I worked a sales job in New York City and really hustled and then did the grind for about a year. And it just was not a good mix for my health. And I realized, like, I was making a lot of money, but I wasn't fulfilled at all. And I I left that job. And then for the next, like three months, I traveled around to different yoga retreats and I did my first real two hundred hour teacher training. That was seven years ago now. And. And then once I got back from that, I was like, yeah, this is my. This is my path. It's my purpose. And I just kept going from that. Joe: That's really cool. And where did you take this training? Alex: Yes, it was it was so special. I did a. It was like a three week immersion and it was twenty five days in Isla Mujeres, Mexico. So it's a little island off the coast of Cancun. And it was like a super cool kind of rustic resort hotel retreat center. Like no TV's in the room. Very, very basic. But it was it was just like super blissful. And, you know, I feel really blessed and privileged. I was able to take that kind of trip to do my teacher training. I definitely, you know, empty my savings account and those, like, months of, like, wobbling around. But it was super special. And that training, it was way different than what I teach now. But it really taught me how to be a yogi. So it taught me not just how to teach yoga, but what it really means to to live a yoga lifestyle, what it really means to be good at yoga. And it was it was really powerful. Joe: Yeah, that's cool, and people talk about going to certain places to become a yogi, right? I mean, I guess I think like even myself, you think that people that do meditation and yoga and it stems out of like being in India or something like that. Right. Is that true or is that just another fallacy that Alex: Yeah, Joe: You know. Alex: I mean, yoga's origin, like, you know, the first the first time yoga was kind of found in any text or whatever it did, it did seem to originate from India, at least the yoga exercises. Right. The poses if you look at pretty much every spiritual tradition as far as like the philosophy goes. All of them are ways to practice yoga. So that's why some people can be really religious and they can practice yoga and they can become a better or more devout Christian or Jew or Muslim. So it's it's not like yoga is not a religion, but it is a spiritual practice. And a lot of those teachings are are universal, which I think is another reason that yoga is growing so much because they realize, like, wow, this kind of goes with what what I believe in. But as far as like historically. Yeah. And India's India's the the the birthplace of it. Joe: Kind of like the Mecca. Right. Alex: Yeah, yeah, it takes Joe: Ok. Alex: A lot of people go to India for four different paintings and stuff. There's I haven't been to India before. I think a lot of yogis kind of consider it like a rite of passage. You know, once you spent time in India, maybe you get a little more street cred and some. Joe: So that's the I so I was wondering, I guess my next question was going to be, had you gone to India yet? But it sounds like not yet, but I assume at some point maybe that's a goal. Alex: At some point, I mean, it's not like the top of my bucket list. There's a lot I love from Alan Watts and I think it's really applicable to that. He says the only Zen that you'll find at the mountaintop is the Zen that you bring with you. Joe: Yup. Alex: So like, you know, India sure, you can be immersed in a culture. And I think it's cool to learn about the history, but it doesn't necessarily make you a better yogi to spend time in India. You can you can find all those teachings. They're already they're already inside you, right? Joe: Sir. Alex: That's the idea. Like, whatever, you know, whatever yoga you find in India is probably yoga that you already have. Know, it just helps you kind of uncover it. So for some people, it becomes a life changing experience. And I've heard from other yogis that, you know, it didn't it didn't do so much for them. Joe: So let's bounce back to something that you said was was when you were in high school, you rebelled a little bit against it. Right. And it was based on the stigmatism that we all think about. There's these yoga people walking around, burning incense and walk around and samples and, you know, draped clothing or whatever. I don't know. Right. Alex: Maria. Joe: But I. But the purpose of this podcast for me is to inform people and to bring subjects like this, especially when I believe in it. Like, I wouldn't do this if if it was something I didn't believe in. I know how it's helped me. And I look forward to being there in your class. So I don't think enough people do yoga. And I think it's such an amazing thing to do if you can't do anything else. Like, if I have a day where I know I'm slammed and I can't go and pump a bunch of iron or whatever, and there's days where I'll do it before yoga and yoga is like the release of all of it right from me. But I would like you for me, it's like God if there's one thing you can do. Just do yoga. Alex: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's I think especially like the styles that that I've learned, you know, and I do feel really grateful that I've been taught the practices that I've been taught. It's really all encompassing. Like, there's some people that I know that practice just yoga and they are ripped. Strong human beings, if that's what you're going for. But then in addition to that, like in addition to the physical, you get the mental benefits of the focus and the memory and the kind of meditation aspect of it. And then I think also just moving your body and doing breath where there's an incredible emotional release. And to me, most importantly, it's it's a spiritual practice that you connect with your essence and who you really are. So, yeah, I think I think yoga is it's it's amazing to do. And I and I agree with you more people. It's growing for share. It's great. Becoming more and more mainstream. But there's still a lot of people, especially especially men, that would benefit, that would benefit from it. How long Joe: Yeah, Alex: Have you. How long have you been practicing? Joe: To be honest with you, when we got to Lifetime and started with you. That's the only time I had done it up to that point. And I think I might even said this to you is that we had the P90X disc right. From Tony Horton and that, that yoga program on that desk was pretty good. It put us through a lot of cool things, but I don't think I ever took a class until yours. Alex: Nice is awesome. Love it. You got them there. You guys been there almost every day, it seems Joe: Yeah, Alex: Like. Joe: Now I'm hooked. And so here's the thing that I want to convey about you, just to take kind of like my own little infomercial about you and the reason why it's it's such a great class and Joelle and loves it and Ashley loves it. And there's you have this combination about you that is like the perfect yoga instructor or I don't know what. Is that what you call it? Yoga instructor. What's the proper. Alex: I guess the guy's a teacher. Some people Joe: Ok. Alex: Say doctors I feel like instructors, correct? Teacher. Teachers connect. Joe: Perfect. OK. So to me, you encompass the perfect yoga teacher. Now I'm lucky that I found you as my first. And I didn't, you know, whatever. I didn't get tarnished by anything else. But you're, you're the tone of your voice. That's the first thing we all talked about when we got back, was like your. Your voice is like very soothing for the practice. And then you do ramp up really nicely through the class. And then it comes back down really nicely. The storytelling that happens intermittently throughout the class. So I encourage anyone to just go there and take one of your classes. I know that. I think. But you can only go. You can only do it if you're a member. All right. Alex: Yeah, I think that right now, with with everything that's going on, I don't think really guest, guest passes. Joe: That's right. Alex: But luckily for everybody and all your listeners, too, there's a lifetime app and you don't have to be a member to download the app. And there's recorded classes on there. And I was just in Minnesota, I just recorded like five classes. So probably in the next week or two. Everyone, if you have a if you have a phone, if you have an app and on YouTube, I believe you, you'll be able to take my classes online. It's not the same experience. I'll tell you about it really even. I made a post on my social media about it yesterday. It's different teaching to just a camera. Like I realized that I really feed off people's energy Joe: Yep. Alex: When I'm in class. And I think and this is a shift that's happened to me more lately when I teach now. I used to be like a big planner. I got a plan what I was going to say and what stories I would tell. And now I just go in there with maybe a loose idea of what I teach, but I just kind of let it flow like and I feel like the students that are in the class, in a way, bring bring what they need to hear out of me. So it feels really good when that happens. And it was just different, you know. There was no students to bring it out of me. So much so. So those online classes are a different experience, but yet still still good in a way. You can check me out. Joe: Yeah, that's perfect. So I'll make sure that in the show notes, I put the link to all of that so that everyone can get a taste. And then unfortunately, the reason I didn't want to do this episode with you is I don't want the class to get full. And then Alex: Oh, Joe: I can't get in it. So Alex: Yeah. Joe: I was this balance between I want to have Alex on and I don't want people to take my spot in the class. Alex: Make sure you get a spot to. Joe: So let me see what I had. Oh, so I want you to tell. I want you to tell a couple of stories that you've told. So I, I and I remember, too. So I want you to tell the water bucket story. If you don't mind. Alex: Ok, to that Joe: I think Alex: One. Joe: It's super cool. Alex: Yeah, so I love stories, first of all, I actually just wrote an e-book for teachers, leaders, speakers. It's called it's called "Inspire the Fuck Out of People." And. Joe: Awesome. Alex: And it's a book about it's really just a book about storytelling mostly and like themes. It's what I do a lot in my teaching. All of my students realize that, like, when you come to my class, it's going to be more than a physical. There's always gonna be there's not always a story, but there's something deeper. So I just I just wrote my book. I compiled, like, all my stories and everything together. So. So that's pretty cool. And I do love stories. And one of the things about storytelling that's really cool is, is we're wired for storytelling. That's how we like as it as through history. That's how we've communicated. And so our brains are actually wired and there's all kinds of research and studies that have been done. And one thing that's really cool is when you tell a story, your you and your audiences brains get sinks. So I kind of think about like Inception. Have you seen the movie Inception? Joe: I probably have and I don't read. I'm the worst at remembering that Alex: It's Joe: You'd Alex: A stupid. Joe: Be surprised how many times I purchased a movie on Netflix and 10 minutes into it and like, damn, that's $4.99 I just wasted because I already saw. Alex: So anyway, so it's just like the idea when you when you tell stories, you can you can like better plant seeds in your audiences mind. So it's a really powerful way to convey messages and meetings and deeper teachings. So that's where I look. What's one of the things I love about storytelling? So that that storytelling of the the water bearer. So it's a story that there's a water bear. And I think the story of the woman is in India. And every day she has to go and walk like two miles to get water for her family. And she carries this big pole on her back with two buckets on each side. And every day she fills up the buckets and or the pots. And when she gets back to her house or her family or whatever, one of the parts is always like a little bit down, like half empty because there's a crack in it and a cracked pot feels inadequate. Right. It feels like it's not enough. Very similar to how a lot of humans feel and different things, especially when we live in such a world of comparison and competition and starts to feel like upset. And tell us the woman, you know, I feel so bad. You work so hard, you know, to take this long walk. And I don't I don't carry my full weight. Right. I always, always let some water go. Norman says the tomorrow when we take the walk, just notice the beautiful flowers that are along the path. Alex: And so they take a walk in the pot sees all these beautiful flowers shining in the sun. And it's like, you know, temporary happiness school. Beautiful. They get home still, that pot is half empty and still is is upset. It's like, yeah, I noticed the flowers. But that doesn't I'm not full, you know. And the woman says to the pot, hey, I knew you had a crack. So every day I noticed that you were like dripping water out. So what I do is I planted seeds all along the path. And did you notice how there was only flowers on one side? So every day we take that walk. When you leave the water out, you're not leaking the water. You're watering these beautiful flowers. That makes my walk more beautiful. It makes my family happy when I can bring the bring the wildflowers home. And, yeah, it's just it's a really big reminder that we all have cracks. We all have things that we look at as flaws. And recently, I don't know. I heard this from from one of my teachers. But our our mess. Right. They got flaws can become our message and they can become our purpose. And a lot of times those things that we view maybe as as ugly or we hide from others can end up being the most inspiring thing that we have to offer the world. Joe: Yeah, yeah, it's it's so true. Man, this is part of why I started to share just some of the things that have gone on through my life. Just because I think you have to tell these things to let people know that they're not alone in in these struggles or these these turns in the roads or whatever might happen. It's like you were talking in class about I think you reference about, you know, getting knocked to our knees and getting back up. And it's when we're in certain poses and that you can feel the distress and that sensation. And, you know, my arms is doing the side planks today. And my arm was wobbling like crazy. And I like man and it's true in it. And it's it's the way you teach it and it's the metaphors that you bring up and and you never correct anyone in the class. You know, everyone smile. There's a slight hint like, no, raise your arms up, not for whatever. But it's it's it's you know, it's done in a very compassionate, gentle way. And that's what keeps me coming back. It's like I don't want to go to a class and not know the poses and be judged, you know. And I was lucky, like literally Tony Horton's disc taught me enough to at least initially walk into that class without feeling completely ridiculous, but. Alex: Confidence. Joe: Right. But the cool thing is that you have these classes online that people can learn. Some of these initial poses are what you call them. Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Joe: Ok, I got I don't want to say the wrong thing and go, oh, my God, it is. And then take your first class. If you do some of the basic things, you'll feel really comfortable. Right. Alex: Yeah, and I've I have begin people that have never taken yoga classes that come in and take take those flow classes that are hot and and challenging for sure. But, you know, one of the big things and one of the things that like let me rewind a little bit when I was first starting to get back into yoga that I didn't like is I would take classes that were very like alignment based where it was all like posture focused. And hopefully you get and when you take my class, it's not really about the pose. I like Joe: Correct, Absolutely. Alex: Most. OK. It's it's there and it's good to move your body, but it's it's not so important. So I use to take these classes in like the whole class would just be pretty much like you're doing it wrong. This has to be turned this way and this has to be done in this way. And I felt like it didn't make me feel empowered. It made me feel like I was just like not good and weak and that like that I really had to honor what the teacher was saying. And then I decided that I tried to teach. I want you to come in and realize, hey, if all you do is breathe for 60 minutes and that happens sometimes, it hasn't happened so much and more because it's a new community. Sometimes you just gotta come on to your mat and breathe and it doesn't matter anything else that you do. Like if that's what you mean. Beautiful. And the poses truly are secondary and they truly are just an opportunity to to have some awareness in your body. It's not about like perfecting the pose. And I really want people to know that not just for me, but for many yoga teacher, yoga teacher stressing or like or like marketing themselves on. I'm going to help you do this posture where you can get really good at poses if you if you practice my yoga. There's a there's a A out there. You know, I think that some people really like that. And I get it. For me, though, there's there's so much more. And like I say, in say in my classes, we don't practice. You're going to get good at yoga poses. We practice. You're going to get good at life. Joe: Yeah, man, it's it's so true. Like I said, I can't thank you enough for, you know, this the way you handled the classes and it's we're like we're signed up for as many as as many as we can take. I don't want to, like, dehydrate myself. Taking a high flow class every day. But, yeah, we keep signing up. We love it. So before you when you you took the training and to become a yoga and where. How did you teach and how did you get into. What did you do before you landed at lifetime. Alex: Yeah, that's a great question. So first of all, like when you do a teacher training, the kind of the introductory level is 200 hours. That's like that's the training and really 200 hours because yoga is so complex and deep and there's so much to it. Two hundred hours is like kindergarten, right. You get that that kindergarten degree and you definitely have a knowledge foundation. But then you have to become you have to continue to learn. You have to always be a student. And so for me, I finished my 200 hour. This was this was after I lived in York City. I moved back with my parents and I came home from that training and I convinced my parents to get rid of our couches in the living room and turn it into a little yoga studio. But a yoga studio at my house and I didn't I guess I didn't really feel that confident yet to apply. There was really only one yoga studio in my town and I didn't really feel that confident yet. But what I started to do is just have three classes at my house and I put it on Facebook and I invite people to come in sometimes and have three or sometimes five. A lot of times like one and a lot of times just no one would come because again, I was like new to my, you know, seven years ago even there wasn't a whole lot of people that were practicing yoga wasn't very popular where I was living in South Jersey. But I did that for like three months. And I probably had like three classes a week at my house and started sharing where I could. And then and then I felt ready to audition at a local studio and taught there. And then fast forward, like, you know, for my first year of teaching, I was teaching and probably like five or six different studios in South Jersey. They're all super spread out. Those times are I'll drive an hour to go teach a class Joe: Oh, Alex: And like, Joe: Gosh. Alex: You know, and when you're a brand new yoga teacher, you don't get paid a whole lot. So sometimes I would like, you know, drive an hour to teach a class for fifteen bucks. But if that wasn't what it was about, it's never been Joe: Right. Alex: About that Joe: Right. Alex: Night. I do feel like I've, I've been blessed and I am happy that I have an entrepreneurial mind where it's yoga. I live a good life. I'm very happy with with the lifestyle and able to live through it. But I was teaching for a while. And then what I really wanted to do was share yoga, like I wanted to share with as many people. That's been my my mission for a long time. I heard this somewhere that inspired me where they said something about like instead of focusing on being a millionaire, how about you influence a million people? So then I. So my goal for, like, I don't know, forever, when I heard that, I was like, OK, I want to be a billionaire. I want to have an impact on a billion people. That's a lot of people. And I know that the way to do that is to influence people that are influencers. So. So my my next kind of step in the process was I knew I wanted to lead teacher training. You know, I wanted to teach other people to teach yoga there. There I would have like an exponential growth on who I'm impacting. And I met someone actually out here in Arizona, which is funny, was way before I lived here. This was this is about five years ago, a little over five years ago. And they told me that they recommended a a three hundred hour teacher training. So that's like, you know, 200 hours, the kindergarten, 300 hours, like Joe: Hey. Alex: Maybe you got a high school little a little higher level. You go a little deeper in. And they told me to do this teacher training in Michigan with with my teacher, Johnny Quest. And I went there and it's funny, like the way I in life, I let things flow so. Right. That like that it felt very like just. It just made sense to me. So I didn't even do much research and I just went to this 300 hour training in Michigan. It was another immersion. It was like three weeks, three weeks straight. Joe: Wow. Alex: And when I was there, I realized that that training was the style that they teach at lifetime. And and that was. And then I was told when I was there about one of the other teachers that their friend was going to Grand Open. They were going to be the general manager of this club in South Jersey that happened to be like 40 minutes from my house. So when I get home from the training, I went to talk to the one of the managers there about just teaching that I was thinking, like, I you know, it's an hour away, 40 minutes away. Maybe I'll teach, like back to back classes. Let me see if it's worth it. And then, like, I show up one day and kind of just tell my story. And the woman who's a dear friend of mine now, she's like, well, we have a yoga manager. And you're hired like you're the you're our guy, you know, because I was the only person in that area that knew the style that Joe: Yes. Alex: We taught. So, yeah. So, again, fast forward a little bit. Got hired at that. That was my first lifetime. I was the yoga manager and we had like just a thriving community. Just incredible. You know, there would be we'd have classes where there would be 80 to 100 people in a Wednesday night. Joe: Oh, my Alex: Yeah. Joe: Gosh. Alex: Well, like, almost the whole floor was mats. You know, there'd be that maybe I would I would say it would it wasn't really a joke because it was true. I'd be like, if you don't know the person next to you, then you can have like two inches between your mats. If you do, another person next to your mats could be touching. So very different world than now. I don't think super to me people would be into that. But it was amazing. The energy was incredible. People made like lifelong friendships. And I was there for a while, kind of felt like I was without a teacher. So then, you know, and the universe provided me the next step where my teacher, Johnny, called me and said, hey, come to Michigan, learn from me, learn with me. There's no there's like we need a yoga manager at this lifetime, Michigan, when they're taught for a few years. Also, you know, is it amazing to be a part of that community because they had all really learned from my teacher. So it's just a really strong community. They just really got what we did. So a super cool. And then I got tired of the Michigan winter. So Joe: Yes. Alex: The last Joe: I don't Alex: Year Joe: Blame you. Alex: Last year, I was like I called my my boss who do directs Lifetime. I said, Terry, I need to know, like, what lifetimes are opening in the next year. And this built more. One was one of them. And, you know, I'd I'd come here on retreats. I'd led retreats in in Scottsdale, Phoenix, for three years, my first three years of teaching at lifetime. Not sure why Phoenix. Like, that's just just a synchronicity. I just happened Joe: Yeah. Alex: To have picked Scottsdale to come to you and I was again familiar with it. And now I'm here and I love it. Joe: That's awesome, man. That's a great story. Alex: Yeah, and I think that one of the things that's important about it, too, is like if you look from a from an external point of view, it might just look like, oh, like everything just fell into your lap. You're very lucky. And I don't believe it's luck. I believe that, first of all, it's blessed. I do feel very blessed in my life. My life, not my whole life hasn't been a blessing, but in a lot of ways and very blessed. And I recognize that. But also, I believe that when you are doing your work and yoga, get called Dharma, when you're doing like your soul's purpose. Doors are going to open up for you that you didn't even know existed. And and then, like the old paradigm is that you have to have, like, super hard work to live the life of your dreams. And the new paradigm is if you're on your path, your path. Right. That's important. Not what other people think Joe: So Alex: You should do Joe: Important. Alex: When you're on your path. It doesn't it doesn't feel like hard work. You know, I've had a lot of success teaching yoga. And I've been a student and I've put effort in and I've taken inspired action, but it's never felt like hard work. And I think it's. And I know it's because I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm doing my my life's work. Joe: Yeah, it's so awesome. And this is great because my audience, the listeners, this is what I preach when I don't have a guest like you on, you know, it's all about that. Even though I'm older, it's taking me all this time to finally say I just need to do the things that that speak to me, that make me happy, that make me want to wake up every day Alex: Neverson. Joe: And smile. Yeah. And so I've come to the game late, but I'm working on it, you know, and hopefully I have a few more years before I take a dirt nap and I can get a bunch of really cool stuff done. So we'll see. Alex: And really, too, like your neck, it's never too late to to to to move in the direction of your dreams and really realize, too, like it's it's not a destination. It doesn't matter how early you start. You don't eventually get to this place where you like up there. I don't care Joe: Right. Alex: Anymore because it's there's always there is always a path, a continuous journey. So it doesn't matter when you get on the path. But it's it's a beautiful thing that you've found it, you know, because for a lot of people, they don't find it till maybe they're laying in their death bed. Right. Joe: I know. Alex: A Joe: Yeah, Alex: Lot of Joe: And I. Alex: It takes lifetimes to find it. Joe: Right. And I've actually I've I've talked about this in some of the. I've done a couple where it's just me kind of spilling my heart saying you don't want to have regret, you don't want to lay me there. And, you know, you want to have it be where you feel like you really live an amazing life. And so you more people have control over this than they think. And the problem is they they don't think they have control over it. They're they're just they're letting their life become something that is being steered by other people, other things, whatever. And. And I think that's why this time with the corona virus happening, this wasn't just a localized thing. Right? It was the whole world shut down and it gave everyone the opportunity to sit back and reflect on what it is that they do and what's the next step for them. And if they got laid off or fired or whatever, you know, they might not have a job. So what do you want to do with your life? Right. So to me, this is it's a cool conversation because it's it's not just about yoga. Your frame of mind is in the same thing that I'm trying to convey to the people that listen to this podcast is that let's, you know, pick what you want to do and make yourself happy. You have control to engineer your own life to to live the fullest life that you can. So figure it out and start. Now, we're never gonna get a plan. I did a podcast on this. We're never gonna get a break like this again. Our lease? I don't think so. Not in our lifetime, where literally everything just halts. Alex: Right. And also a lot of people get it individually, right? Sometimes it comes as like a diagnosis or a we're getting fired or laid off, you know. But this is a collective where we have an opportunity as a collective to reflect on, like, how do we want to be not just on our individual life, but how do we want to live as a community, as a whole, as a collective? And I think also that's why a lot of things are coming to the surface. You know, a lot of the tension and seeing like injustices and starting to the fact that there's more awareness there. It's a beautiful thing. Weather doesn't matter. You know, there's there's a lot of different opinions on how it's been addressed. But we're going to see. And I really do believe this is like a new paradigm. Things are no longer hidden. And and we're seeing that and more and more and more and more ways, like even restaurants go to go to new restaurants. They almost always have like an open kitchen. Right. Like you Joe: Yeah. Alex: Go to because you can see the food being prepared. And that's how our whole life is starting to be, where it's there's there's nothing hidden anymore. And we don't want the hidden. So, like, whatever's been in the darkness where we're shining light on it. And it's it's arising. And like what you said. Yeah. It's so important to do what you love doing, to do what makes you feel good, because there's a lot of people that are even super and putting this in quotes against successful. Right. And usually that's like a monetary thing. That's kind of how our American dream Joe: Yeah. Alex: Then equated that are like super rich and just like so unhappy and numbing themselves. They're addicted to all kinds. All kinds of shit. Whatever it is that that, you know, everyone has different ways to numb themselves. But, you know, it's not just about money. It's not just about like working hard. It's about loving your life and living the truest version of your life. That's that's what's going to bring you the most fulfillment. Joe: Absolutely. You know what? And here's a good segue way, because you talk about community and how we're all thinking about the future together. Now it's really like a shot in the head for everyone saying what is going on and we've got to fix this. And and it's not just singular now. It's it's your your family. It's your community. It's everything. And when you were in yoga and you talk like that, can feel it in the room that everyone is is realizing that we have to make the right changes to move forward. And. And it just it's it's powerful. So this is a Segway to that really cool story you talked about with the kids lined up and the Alex: Oh yeah. Joe: Basket. Alex: The trive...yeah. So there's a there's. A phrase in African culture from certain tribes in Africa. And it's I don't know exactly how to pronounce it, I think it's Ubuntu, Ubuntu. And the idea that phrase means I am who I am because of who we all are together. So like we're a product of our environment. And an anthropologist went to this tribe in Africa that kind of lives by this ritual. And they didn't experiment where they lined up all their all the children. And in the distance, like 100 hundred yards away under a tree, they put a basket of fruit and candy and all kinds of sweet treats. And this this anthropologist explained the rules of the game. He said, when I say go, it's a race. And the first person there, they get the basket of treats. They get the basket of goods. So obviously, like some of the older kids have a big advantage, they're probably going to be a little faster. So you lines them all out and he says, "Ready? Go." And the kids, they didn't have any time to talk to each other beforehand. And as soon as he says go, they look at each other that turns had side reach out and grab each other's hand. And together they like kind of jog or skip to the basket and they get there at the same time and they shared all. Anthropologists ask one of the older girls in the tribe that that probably was was one of the fastest, fastest ones. And you said why you could add it all to yourself. Why do you do that? And she said, you want to. How can one of us be happy if the rest of us are sad? Joe: It was so powerful when you told that story as a wow. Alex: Yeah, I mean, when you get that story mixed with, like, intense, you know, physicality, transformation, that's another thing that's beautiful about yoga. What I love about this platform is when your physiology changes. So if you're doing some kind of activity, you're also more open and receptive on on all those dimensions. So then when you hear something like that, it really lands. It really impacts you Joe: Yeah. Alex: More than even just listening to this or listening to a podcast or something. It's a different level when you're getting your physical involved. Joe: Yes. Absolutely. Alex: Huge one too like that idea, because a lot of us and this is another, like old paradigm we're taught. How many times we hear it like the idea of survival of the fittest and it's a shark eat shark or Joe: Yeah, Alex: Dog eat dog world or starve. Joe: Yeah. Alex: You've got to be a shark. And you've got to know in order to be successful that you need to kind of push other people. There's there's people that you need to kind of push down for you to to rise up. And that's that's bullshit. Like that's gone. That maybe that's how it used to be. But that's not how this new world, this new paradigm that we're moving into is like now it can be rather than competition, it's collaboration or conscious competition where we can kind of grow together. There's Joe: Yeah. Alex: A quote that my teacher used, always used that all ships rise in a high tide. So collectively we're raising each other up or lifting each other up and there's enough abundance for everybody. And that's huge to understand and to really get to and believe because we believe it on an individual level, the collective starts to believe it and then we'll start to really see it in our lives that like there's enough work for all of us. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and that's why the classes are so strong in the sense of it's the it's the work out that you get and it's that all of the things that that you get out of the class, but it's you get this benefit of all of this positive energy that comes out of it. And it's just it's amazing. That's what I want to touch upon. All I want to know for people that don't understand yoga. And obviously it's new to me. But I. I just know the benefit. I can feel it. I can already twist certain ways that I couldn't twist a month ago. Whatever it is. But I want to educate the listeners who have been on the fence about taking a yoga class. What are the benefits that you can express of what yoga does and why it's so needed? Alex: There's there's a there's a lot of benefits, and it really happened in in a lot of different ways. So I'll talk about the four dimensions. I talked about that a lot in my trainings and stuff four dimensions, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. And yoga has it's going to improve your life and in all of those physically. Is gonna help you feel good, right? Like moving your body and breathing deep. It's medicine for your body. And and and like, if we're honest with ourselves, we want to feel good. And there's enough shit that we do that kind of brings us into a state of not feeling great that this will help balance it out. Right. So if you'd like to party a little bit and drink or maybe, you know, indulge in some unhealthy food, that's fine. But this will help you. This will help you be balanced and and moving your body has it has a ton of benefits and moving. You're like just body weight is really good, too. So I know that a lot of people like my age. And when you're younger or really I should say, like men, men in general, we we think and we've kind of been programmed to think that in order to be. I don't know, appealing and sexy. And we need to lift a lot of weights. Right. And it's good to be strong for sure. But there's just so much wear and tear that comes from lifting heavy weights. Alex: And in most cases, like, we don't need that kind of strength. Right. Like like in our day to day life, we're not doing things well. So then it becomes not even that functional. But yoga, moving your own body, that's it. We're constantly doing and through those body weight movements. Not only is it going to build strength, but it's not going to, like, wear you down as much as I'm doing other other types of exercise. So that's a one big one physically is just feeling good in your body, going even deeper. Like I can tell you. So I have two autoimmune conditions. I've been diagnosed with Crohn's disease, which is intestinal inflammation. Kind of throws off my digestion and diabetes, so affects my blood sugar. When I practice yoga or really now I see it more now and I don't practice yoga because I do it frequently. If I don't practice yoga, my blood sugar is way higher. So it regulates my blood sugar. And there are studies that show it helps really everybody's blood sugar, which is good. But you have diabetes or not. It's good to have regulated blood sugar, helps your body just stay in and kind of balance. And and my digestion is better, too. And there's a lot of people that that have digestive problems. So just moving your body around and a lot of the forward folds and twists, it's like a massage for your digestive organs. So those are just like little benefits. Alex: And I'd say that each person you kind of have to experience it for yourself to really get to know. Right. Like I could tell you that honey is sweet and delicious, and I could talk about it all the time. How good honey is. If you never taste honey, you're not going to really understand. But when you really do it yourself, then you'll start to realize, like, well, yeah, I do feel better. So that's physical. Mental. It's gonna help you. I think the biggest one is it's going to help you be less reactive in your lives. So reactions are like, you know, someone cuts you off in traffic and you die. You start getting crazy and like fight or flight response, start getting angry. Or maybe it's with your partner that you live with where they say something that kind of pisses you off and you you just get super agitated right away. And there's no like, there's no. There is no cause from like the stimulus to the response. It's just right away that you're super reactive. And it's really powerful to be able to increase that space. So something happens, there's some kind of stimulus, and you're able to take a little bit more time to respond with with your whole being, not just like out of emotion or not just like out of anger or you're able to more intellectually, intelligently and emotionally respond. So I think that helps a lot. Joe: That's really interesting, too. I never thought of it that way. But to have that space between between what happens in your reaction is really cool. Alex: It's huge when you can when you've made that space even bigger, when that gap becomes bigger. That's really you talk about regret a little bit. Usually we only regret things when we react to them. When you have that space and you usually have a little more time before you respond to something, then you're probably not going to regret you're probably going to make a decision that's that's going to be best for it, for all parties involved. Definitely increases your ability to focus. Right. So if you want to be more proficient, efficient at work, if you want to be able to have better conversations, be a better communicator. Is going to help you with that, too. So mentally really powerful. And it just goes to improve your mood like movement and breath helps you feel better. So you're gonna be in a better state of mind when you're not when you're in a better state of mind, in a more elevated state. You're going to attract better things into your life. That's the best law of attraction and law of attraction. Is not this like hippy dippy, crazy thing that is real. And we're all doing it constantly. Right. We just aren't necessarily aware emotionally. Yoga is a great way to express it. So it's another thing with men like men were taught that to to be a strong man, we need to be stoic and we need to not really show emotion. Alex: And that takes it takes a big toll. Right. And that's why more men have like serious health conditions, because this is a popular saying mom like wellness practitioners, our issues are stored in our tissues. Right. So if we never release emotionally, then then then we have so much stress that we're just holding in and holding onto. I think also that's a big part of why I had a disease, why I got diagnosed, because I didn't have a healthy outlet to express the things I was feeling and some of the challenges that I went through. So. So yoga like moving your body, breathing. Kind of shaking things I talk about. Like shaking. That's a way that our bodies release. So that's a really powerful thing on an on an emotional level. And it just allows us to feel right. Like, most of the time we're numbing ourselves. Yoga is like the opposite. Like, go ahead and feel. You can feel angry. It's OK. You can feel happy. You can. You can. You know, there's a lot of people that practice yoga. And they they feel emotional, like they might cry or like feel like they're tearing up beautiful and you off to try to make sense of it, just like that's a release that had to happen. Joe: Yeah. Alex: And then finally, the good news is that. Joe: Not I don't know if it's it's exc. I was just going to say that you talk about the emotion part of it and how I even said to you after one of the classes, I couldn't keep tree pose, I couldn't keep it without falling out of the pose and losing my balance. And I found myself getting mad at myself a couple of times. And over the months I've learned to to just breathe and settle into it. And then it's it's become a better way of doing it for me. But I used to get mad at myself because I want I'm one of those people I got to do everything good or I suck, you know, and it's. Alex: You know, that man and I and having the awareness of it. That's a huge benefit of the practice. I say it a lot in my classes. How you do anything is how you do everything. Joe: Yeah. Alex: And, you know, this is an opportunity to become more aware of, like what happens when you struggle. Right. Do you get pissed at yourself? Do you start to have this negative self talk? Because all that does is bring you to a downward spiral. Right. So as you become more aware of it, you go into your yoga mat and you might do something that like, OK, you're going to struggle in it, but can you still stay, like, optimistic? Can you still keep your energy up even when you're struggling? And that's going to help you so much in other areas of your life and your relationships in your in your work, in your, you know, whatever it may be. So that's really powerful. And in the final dimension where you get benefits is the spiritual and spiritual true. That's a pretty, like, misunderstood term. Couple of things that that it means to me. One of the one of the most powerful emotions or traits, I guess, to feel is inspired and inspired is that word in spirit. So it's like when you're connected to soul, right? When you're connected to your true self. Because you don't have a soul. You are so right. Every single human being is Joe: Mm hmm. Alex: A school. We have a body. We have a mind. But we are we are soul. And when we're in that place of spirit and soul, we get out of our own way. And we start to realize that we are our biggest obstacles, like our ego. Right. That that part of us that maybe gets pissed when we're not doing so good or maybe gets offended or overthinks things like we get in our own. Our ego gets in our own way all the time because we just want to be loved and we want to be appreciated. We want to be like, you know, our ego wants to be the best and recognized as the best. And when we're in spirit, we don't care about that. Like when you're really inspired, all that shit goes away. And I think everyone's experienced it in some way where they're just in the flow of life. So, like, I'm a big athlete, I love playing sports and I've had moments in life. I'm just totally in the zone. Right. I know musicians and runners. They experience it, too. And in the zone is the same thing. You could change interchange that word with being in a state of meditation or being in it in a state of inspiration. In spirit. Joe: Yeah. And it was interesting because, again, talking about the practice of yoga. And I wanted to actually ask you, what do they call it, the practice of yoga. Alex: Yeah, I love that because it's not a performance and it's not a competition, right. And it helps you realize that it's not a destination. So if you if you're not performing yoga, there's no one that you're trying to impress with yoga. Social media. Maybe there's some other things about it, because you'll see a lot of these famous yoga accounts that just pose like pretty photos. But to me, that's not really what yoga is about. And yoga for four more more of the time that it's been around, as has not been about postures, it never really was about posture. It's just in the past few hundred years, poses became became what yoga is like known for. It's never a performance and it's never a destination. And, you know, one thing about practice is like you don't really need to label or judge it as good or bad just by putting the effort in. You get the results out. And I think that's a pretty powerful thing because most of the things we do in life, we're doing to, like, impress other people or to to perform something and almost everything that we do, we do to kind of impress other people or or get some kind of recognition and yoga. It's not about that. Just you come to your mat. We just practice certain things. And what you're really practicing in yoga, not getting good postures. You're really practicing strengthening the qualities of the mind that serve you right. So equanimity, having a balanced mind, non reactivity, kindness, compassion, enthusiasm, inspiration, like those qualities, the mind you're strengthening and then you're learning to weaken by just not giving energy to the qualities of the mind that that detract from you. So like competition and judgment and negative self talk, those things. So really, that's what you're practicing. You're practicing getting better at living your life. Joe: Yeah, awesome. I want to, if you can, and I don't know I don't know how deep you want to get into it, but I want to get a little deeper in the physical part of it, because I think that that's what's important for people to understand. I don't want them to think it's like to showing like I think the other benefits will come out of it if if they understand the health benefits in a physical nature of what it can do to them. And I know that where we're in certain poses and when we're in class and you're talking about how your toes are spread out when you're let's say you're in downward dog or your fingers are spread out. And it's and they talked about us all getting more down into the earth, like sitting on the floor during the day occasionally, like feeling more connected to the earth. Alex: Yeah. Joe: And and I know that when we do these poses and you talk about how you're pushing on your ankles and your fingers and your toes, and it's it's creating this circulation in the areas that normally aren't getting that kind of attention. Alex: For sure. Yes. Love it so. So let's start by saying, like, first of all, in in our Western culture, right. In America, there's something like one in four people have chronic illness. It might even be higher. It might actually be like one and two. But we live in a culture where a lot of people have disease and disease dis Joe: Yes. Alex: Ease. So the opposite of having ease in the body is dis-ease and the cause of most diseases. And this is really according to like all traditional medicine practices that have been around for thousands of years. Right. Way longer than our modern like pharmaceuticals and what we do here in our health care system. But like traditional Chinese medicin, Ayurveda which is the kind of sister science of yoga, traditional medicine that was practiced in the Middle East for thousands of years. It all says that the main cause of disease is stagnation. Right. Like when there's just stuck, when we're stuck, they're stuck. Energy, that's the reason that we get tension, everybody. That's the reason that our digestion kind of sucks. So yoga in the poses and we work in the yoga posture to bring sensation to every single part of our body and wherever there's sensation that that's that goes hand in hand with there being stimulation. Right. So that part of your body is stimulated. And if you just, like, took your arm and you stack smacked your arm a lot. Right. This is stimulation. It's going to start to turn red. That's increased circulation. So wherever you stimulate whatever part of your body you stimulate. There's more blood flow, more energy flow. And when everything is flowing, that's when we're at a at a greater place of of health. Better place of healing. And I love using the analogy of like a stagnant pond. Alex: Right. It's like very murky. It's it's kind of nasty. A lot of mosquitoes and bugs compare. And that's that's when we're stagnant. And if you think about it, probably a lot of people that we know well, maybe people that are listening to this right now. We spend hours a day sitting in a chair. So there's a lot of stagnant energy, a lot of blockages. Tips are so tight, our low backs are so tight. That's the pond. That's real stagnant energy. And then if you look at like a stream, it's very clear. It's smooth. It's flowing. That's the. That's what yoga helps helps us get like, more circulation in our body, more energy flowing in our body. A huge one. A huge benefit of the practice is you don't you'll see that you, like, don't need to be addicted to coffee and caffeine to have energy. Right. Like, you can find weight. Just breathe deep. You'll have more energy. Do some sun salutations, which is like a basic yoga warm up super D. D series of movements. You'll you'll have more energy. And that's a beautiful thing too, because it's really empowering. You start to realize, hey, I can take my healing into my own hands. I can take my energy and my efficiency into my own hands. So that's a big part of how the physical postures work, is bringing more stimulation and therefore circulation to every little party about. Joe: Yeah, I think it's really important, so I wanted to just kind of drill that home because again, I think that the the idea of what yoga is, is you have to experience it. Like you said you can. You can tell me all day that that honey is sweet. And if I don't taste it, I'll never know. Right. So I just I want to encourage the listeners to initially if they just want to watch you online in a training, but ultimately I don't care if it's at lifetime or. I do care. I don't want anybody at lifetime. I don't want that. Alex: Save you a spot. Joe: No but I encourage people to go in and when they're ready to go take a class, because I really think it's super important. Alex: And I'm glad you said that because that it is a little bit of a blind spot for me, because if you talk to people that are close to me, like you'll see like I love yoga for definitely more than just the physical practice, like the physical to me is like really a smaller benefit to all the other practices. Like I said you don't practice yoga to get good at poses. You practice, you're going to get good at life. But I also realize it's really important for people to realize that, like, the physical is usually the introductory. Right. Most people come to yoga because they want to feel better in their body. They want to be more flexible. They want to kind of like, you know, if they have low back pain, they want to they want to help take care of that. So I think it's important for me to realize that and talk to that, too. And really, if you come just for the physical, that's fine. You'll get everything else. That's how it works for most people. They come for the physical. They want to Joe: Yeah. Alex: Be more flexible. They want to, you know, open up their hips a little bit. And then they start to realize, like, wow, this is. Like, I didn't freak out when someone just cut me off. I used to have road rage. Whoa. This is like my yoga practice is helping. I breathe. I did deep. I took a deep breath. Instead of, like, maybe yelling at my partner or yelling at my kids when they kind of pissed me off. Like, I saw that there's a little more space between my response. You don't have to. You want to go to yoga for that. But you'll get the. Joe: Right. So on top of that, this is just more of a personal question. Do you meditate also? Alex: Yes. Joe: Ok. I just that was a selfish question because I've done it off and on. And I was just wondering if it's something that you do as part of your daily lifestyle. Alex: Sure. I mean, I've I've been inconsistent over the years where I'll go and be really consistent with we're going to fall off. But that's like the seated meditation practice. And I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about what meditation is. I've had I can't tell you how many students I've had say I can't meditate. I can't get my mind to still to be still. I can't get my mind to calm down to any thoughts. And like, that's very natural. But that's that's part of being a human having a human mind. It's not about making your thoughts go away. The practice of meditation and this is ancient yoga philosophy. This is like that the eight limbs of yoga, which is a really foundational yoga philosophy teaching before you get to meditation, that kind of the precursor is is concentration. So when you're doing when you're meditating, what you're really doing is concentrating on one thing. And if your mind wanders, it's OK as part of the practice. But you just sucks instead of letting your mind go away off into the distance. You notice it wandering and you bring it back. You notice it wandering and you bring it back. So the practice is concentration. Meditation is not really a verb. It's more of a noun that you might get into. But just because you sit and sit for five minutes doesn't mean you're gonna get into that state of meditation where you're like in the zone. Alex: And that's not it's practice another you know, another thing like you want to judge it as like, oh, did I actually meditate or not just take if you. And I like to teach when I do like one to one coaching, I just teach. Hey, guys, this is like we're just gonna practice concentration and let me call it meditation. We're gonna practice concentration. And as you get better at concentration, you start to get into the zone. And some people, almost everyone meditate just in different ways. Like runners. You know, I've talked to some people, too, that work with or might you have like a concentration practice, ignite or meditate. And I was like, well, what do you do to kind of like get out of your own head like or like, you know, what do you do to kind of if you have a lot of thoughts going on it, like why I like to run when I'm running, I'm just like fully in the zone and not thinking too much. Perfect. That's your meditation. Some people meditate when they play basketball and they play music when they create art. So there's a lot of different ways to do it. And I think that's important to realize, too, to. Joe: Yeah, and it's funny because what yoga has helped me to do is to understand how poorly I was breathing because I'm definitely a breath holder type person like I. The tension from holding my breath for certain things. And so it's opened up the fact that I need to breathe deeper and longer. And it's all part and it's all these little benefits that you don't realize you're getting. And that's why I think it's so important. I wanted to have you on because of all of this, you know. Alex: Yoga changes your life does Joe: Yeah. Alex: If you commit to it. And it just it just works for everyone. The big thing is you have to find the right teacher, right? The right Joe: Yeah. Alex: To feel like I'm not everybody's teacher. I've had people that don't like the way I teach. They don't. I talk a lot to a lot of stories. Some people like that. Some people like more silence. You know, I play my music really loud. Some people like that. And that's fine. And I and I realized that, like, not everyone's going to like me. I think if people if I wanted everybody to like me, I'm probably doing something wrong. I'm sacrificing Joe: Yeah. Alex: My truth. But there's plenty of teachers. There's plenty of styles of yoga. So once you find your teacher and your style and your person, you dive in and and like, it'll it'll change your life. Joe: And you touched upon something there that I wanted to ask you, this is about the music and how. How do you think that Paris, with what we're all doing in that room and and how do you I would, knowing you

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Luke Knox ’22 speaks with Joe Morgan ‘81 about what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, and how his Holy Cross education prepared him to lead with integrity. Recorded on January 28, 2020 --- Transcript Joe: So, the experiences that I had at Holy Cross created tremendous friendships but also expanded my mind and allowed me to get into situations that are uncomfortable for me, but then find a place for me within that circumstance. And I think a lot of times that I see people that don't have that background, they get into a circumstance, they get fixed on their belief, and they can't participate in critical thinking. And critical thinking is the essence of what I believe Jesuit education's all about, is it puts you on a circumstance where you are given the tools, but then almost expected to participate in a broader discussion. And as soon as you get stubborn and dig in, unless of course you're in a debate, you lose the opportunity, I think, to take full advantage of the Holy Cross education. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the Class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: This episode features Joe Morgan from the Class of 1981, a self-proclaimed poster child of Worcester higher education, Joe is a Worcester native who attended Holy Cross, WPI, and Clark University. After beginning his career as an engineer, he quickly rose through the ranks to serve as President of Sony Chemicals Corporation of America. From there, he pursued corporate roles at numerous private and public companies. At each stage, he used his influence in the C-Suite to lead with the values that he learned in his Jesuit Holy Cross education. Maura: Luke Knox from the Class of 2022 speaks with Joe about his decision to start his own company in November 2016 called siY. Be safe. Be inspired. Be you. As an entrepreneur himself, Luke speaks with Joe about best practices in business and management. Throughout the conversation, Joe touts the importance of leading with empathy in order to transform individuals, teams, and corporations. Luke: Welcome, everyone. I'm Luke Knox, a sophomore economics major. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Joe Morgan, Holy Cross Class of 1981. Joe, it's great to have you on today. Thank you for coming onto the show. Joe: Thanks for inviting me, Luke. Glad to be here. Luke: No problem. Yeah. Luke: Starting off, you were a chemistry major when you were at Holy Cross, and in addition to receiving a Bachelor of Arts from here, you also earned your Bachelor of Science degree from Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) and an MBA from Clark University. It sounds like you've been educated by really the top institutions of Worcester. Joe: Right. So, I often refer to myself as the poster child of higher education in Worcester. There's actually a little bit of extra data on those choices though. I started as a math major at Holy Cross. My dad was a math major, so dutiful son, I wanted to do what my dad did. But then I didn't like it, so I became a chemistry major. And then there was a 3/2 program with WPI, and I like scale, big scale instead of beakers and labs, so I didn't really like the experimental side of chemistry, so I went and got a chemical engineering degree at WPI. And then I needed a business degree in order to do what I do, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. Luke: Yeah, we'll get to that. That's great. Worcester, obviously, grew up in Worcester. Great schools here. It's nice to see that homegrown and experiencing all that Worcester has to offer. And I know that, from being a chemistry major at Holy Cross, now you're getting your MBA and you're running businesses, you're obviously a very highly motivated individual. And in your opinion, what would you say your personal mission is and how does that drive you in the work you do? Joe: Well, I think when I was growing up, my parents focused on a few things. One was faith, certainly, and the other was education. So they invested a lot of time in both of those. And when you have strong faith and then you've spent your time in education, you get exposed to a lot of thought process, honestly. And so what my mission is, and it does reflect back probably to my family, which is the third thing my parents focused on, is giving back to people that don't have the benefit of the things that you've been given. Joe: And so I spent a lot of time thinking about that with kid is really a passion for me. The impoverished is another thing I'm deeply passionate about. Joe: But I would say what's interesting now for me more so than ever before, I've run a lot of bigger companies, and now I have my own company, which we'll chat about. But we're at a time I think in our world and our country where we can't seem to get to a common agenda. And so, I have a mission or a passion now to help people see the possibilities of that. Because leadership is daily providing a platform for hope, but then wrapping it with reality. And that's what I spend my time on each day and more. Joe: There's a thing called The Bridge that I've developed with some folks, and we can chat a little bit about that, but that's the essence of my focus now is to help people see the possibilities, but deep down inside for me, it's the kids. It's just making sure that that next generation can see the possibilities of the future. And I don't think today in every case that is true, so that's something that me and others like me are spending time on. Luke: And that same thought process intertwines right with the Holy Cross mission statement- Joe: Right. Luke: ... men and women for others. Joe: Right. Luke: And could you speak a little more about how that... being at Holy Cross and going by that motto, how that has also affected you and your life decisions? Joe: You know what? I was chatting this morning about this, is I think growing up in a Catholic education is a lot of memorization that takes place. And I think if you don't get stressed about trying to memorize all the things about Jesuit education and the mission and the vision and all, but just live it, let it penetrate you, then I think the possibilities of living what you just said comes to be. Joe: So, the experiences that I had at Holy Cross created tremendous friendships but also expanded my mind and allowed me to get into situations that are uncomfortable for me, but then find a place for me within that circumstance. And I think a lot of times that I see people that don't have that background, they get into a circumstance, they get fixed on their belief, and they can't participate in critical thinking. And critical thinking is the essence of what I believe Jesuit education's all about, is it puts you on a circumstance where you are given the tools, but then almost expected to participate in a broader discussion. And as soon as you get stubborn and dig in, unless of course you're in a debate, you lose the opportunity, I think, to take full advantage of the Holy Cross education. Joe: Now where that's taken me in my career, you mentioned WPI and the 3/2 program, I always say that Holy Cross helped me get every job that I have because I learned communication skills, I learned adaptation. WPI allowed me to advance in technical fields because of the process expertise that I was able to glean through that particular education. And that combination was really powerful for me. Luke: And going back to what you were saying about communication skills, I think when I was thinking about my own choices on where I wanted to go to school, I definitely wanted to go somewhere like Holy Cross where I could learn those crucial communication skills. And I know that being in business, being an entrepreneur, how like you were just saying, how really important being able to present yourself and effectively communicate with others, how important that is to not only sell a product, but to grow a business. I was wondering if you could speak more about that and how you've used your communication skill to further your career? Joe: On the communications side, simplicity is so, so important. I am sure as you've gone through your entrepreneurial journey you probably got way too complex at the start, and people have advised you to make it simple, simple, simple. The one-pager, whatever they've told you, and it's true. Because people can't absorb more than that generally. And as the entrepreneur, as the person with the idea, you know way more than they do, and you're trying to engage them just a little bit in what you do so that they'll help you, whether you want money or you want them to buy the product or you want advocacy, whatever that might me, on the communications side, simple, simple, simple. But then also be really clear on knowing your audience. What is it that you want from them or need from them or desire from them and focus only on that. Don't make it broader because you'll lose them. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs that I'm around, they get so passionate about what they do, they lose sight of why they're in this particular conversation and dialog. So that would be one thing. Joe: The other thing is the issue of courage. You have to be somewhat courageous to be an entrepreneur. That doesn't mean that you're necessarily saving lives or something like that. You might, depending upon what you do, but you really do have to have courage because as I'm sure, you can share this with the group too, the audience, is there's a lot of negative that comes from entrepreneurialism. You get a lot of feedback that hurts. And how fast do you respond to that is going to be important. Your resilience quotient is really, really important because if you get stubborn and say, "I don't really care what you said to me. I'm just going to continue to do what I was doing." Probably shouldn't take that approach. There's some value in every input that you get. Joe: The other, probably the third part of this is trust. Be really careful who you look to for trust. If someone doesn't have your interest in mind, it's really all about them, then you're probably not going to get good advice. So that's the other part. So, you want to focus on being courageous, learn a lot, but then your advice, and then always, always, always be simple. Luke: And I think it's super important as an entrepreneur, and I'm sure that you realize this as well, is that when you receive that, it always happens you're going to receive negative criticism. And I think me personally, in my own experience, I've taken that really, not as an opportunity to be bitter, but to be better and to realize, okay, it's really important to view every single opinion that's coming at me with, whether you have a product or a business or you're offering a service, anything like that, and to use it to every day learn more about yourself, learn more about what you want to do, your product, whatever, and use that to help you out in that business setting the next day. Joe: Right. Luke: Stuff like that. Joe: Well, I think, you're an entrepreneur, so when you start a business, it's probably your money. So- Luke: Yeah, it is. Joe: ... people that are around you, it's not their money. So it's easy to spend someone's money if it's not your money. And then time is all you have. So if you waste your time and waste your money, you're not going to have the opportunity to create something of value from your ideas. So really what's important is keeping it simple, but then taking the input from people that you trust and adapting quickly so that you can use whatever resource you have, which I think for... As I'm an entrepreneur too, you end up just with a little bit of time and a little bit of money, and if you use it right, you can turn it into more time and more money. If you use it badly, then it spirals. So, I'm sure you've experienced that. Joe: I think the other part of entrepreneurialism too is at some point you want whatever you're doing to grow, and at that point you're going to bring in other people. Learning how to trust other people is really a big deal, and I actually think that gets back to your first question about Holy Cross, is you believe in the mission, which I think we do or we wouldn't be sitting here, and you are a good judge of people, you always have to validate, you can bring people in far more easily than people that don't have belief in others. And you'll never be able to get the benefit of what your idea is if you can't eventually bring people into the conversation. Joe: I have been the intrepreneur a number of times working for entrepreneurs early in my career, and I actually never asked the question, but they trusted me enough to let me do the things on their behalf because they knew that they couldn't scale it beyond their own means. But I've also seen entrepreneurs that don't trust anybody, and it's a problem because their idea's great, but who wants to work in an environment where you're not trusted? Where every day you think, "Oh my gosh, you've taken something from me?" That's not helpful. So what happens then is people leave. The really good ones leave and then they get marginalized and the business never really achieves what it set out to do. Joe: So that would be a piece of advice for you because I hope that what you're doing just explodes- Luke: Thank you. Yeah. Joe: ... but you're going to have to bring in other people when you do it, you know? Luke: Yeah. And we're kind of in that process right now where we're really building a team. And I know that one of your skills is being able to do that and build a successful team. And if you just had to list off a couple of big characteristics that every team regardless of what business they're in or whatever, what are those main characteristics that every team kind of needs to have? Joe: I thought you were going to ask me a different question, so I'm going to answer the one I thought you were going to ask me, and then I will answer... Joe: I think the first thing to build a team is you have to know what you are good at. So get a white board and write that down. Don't write it in a notebook. Put it on the wall and then walk past it for a few days and make sure that you're being honest with yourself. Don't put it in a notebook, close it, stick it somewhere that you'll never go retrieve it. Put it on a wall. And then let a couple people that you know that actually care about you look at it and say, "You know what, Luke, I don't agree with that. You think you're really good at that but you're actually not." And so move that to the other one which is, whatever the right term is, deficiency or something that I can improve. But be really clear on the three to five things that you're really great at, but then also compare that to what you're most passionate about. Joe: If you could spend the amount of time that you spend on entrepreneurialism, what part of that do you love the most? And if you could spend all your time doing that, because that's likely to equate to value. Once you get that right, now you can start filling in the spots. And don't think about it so much functionally, although eventually you have to have competency in the functions. Think about it in terms of behaviors and values. You've got to get people with the same values as yourself, and they have to be able to articulate that and then demonstrate it. So that's one. Joe: The second one is the behaviors which are different. Values are aligned in the sand. Integrity, think honesty, things like that. Behaviors are when faced with a pressure situation, I scream and yell. That's a behavior. Luke: Right. Joe: I'm guessing you probably don't want that around. Luke: No. Yeah. Joe: You want somebody that's going to get on the balls of their feet and participate and dig in. That's a behavior that you might want in your business. So I'd be really clear on who you are, where you like to spend your time, get the attitudes and the behaviors and the values right. Joe: Now you can talk about financial. So if you're going to scale your business, you're an economics major so you have some reasonable financial understanding, but you do have to have financial expertise in your business so people can cover your back so you can do all those great things you want to do. Joe: Without sales, we don't have a business, so that may be your strength, but you might be the idea person. You may be the product manager, whatever that strength is. So if you need sales and you need finance, make sure that you've got really strong people in the marketplace that you're in. Now you could have a pure online business in which case you need somebody with e-commerce expertise. Whatever that core thing is, get the best you can, and whatever you think you can afford, pay a little more. Because what tends to happen, I see a lot of times with entrepreneurs is you scale it back just a little bit, and you want people to feel like you do, but they're not going to because it's not their business. Luke: Good point. Yeah. Joe: So, don't ever be misguided by a person's individual passion to be an employee versus an entrepreneur. They're different. They're just different. So I think it's really about who the person is first, and then you get to the acumen. Because I'm on a lot of boards with people and I meet some people that are just misaligned on the behaviors and the values, but they're wicked smart. And I can tell you the wicked smart does not trump values and behaviors ever. Eventually that is going to catch up, and it's I would... that's kind of the pecking order that I would recommend. Luke: Yeah, values and behavior, definitely. Joe: Always. Joe: And it depends on what you need in your business too. I don't know the details of your company, but you have to be clear on what competencies are most critical to you. Luke: Great point. And then being a leader in those teams, I know in one of your most recent articles, you talk about having the ability to really fully understand what's going on in somebody's life and how that might affect them in the workplace and outside of it. Joe: Right. Luke: Being a leader in a team and definitely being a leader in a startup company, how do you think that, myself or you, how do you go about that with being compassionate and empathetic towards your employees, your partners, people in your company? Joe: Well, this gets to curiosity. I was asked recently in an article, what do truly curious people do? It's not questions. It's about answers. So you're asking me questions right now. You're curious about those, I can tell by this conversation. But if you were just asking questions and you don't really care what I say, we're not going to have a very productive conversation. Luke: Right. Joe: And you're not going to demonstrate any compassion. Or interest, actually. Joe: So, I think the most important thing is that first question or two that you ask in any interaction. Demonstrate that you actually about the person. So for example, we've faced some tragedy here at Holy Cross recently and I am quite confident that people that were closest to that, if you tried to have a conversation about something other than that circumstance, it would be very, very difficult for them. And you might have planned for weeks, months, maybe even six months, a year, to have a particular meeting with someone that might have been close to that situation, and you want to talk about your product. And you know what? They don't want to talk about your product. They're dealing with something that is just life changing and devastating to them. And if you have no ability to be sympathetic to that, then how are you possibly ever going to connect with them? Joe: And that's one of the things I've learned in my career is you can plan and prepare as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, for that sale or that interaction, but what happened just before that person walked in the room is going to affect whether that interaction that have been planning for is successful or not. And so we need to draw that out. We need to not take it personally if they're not involved in the meeting. Something awful might have happened. Joe: I'll tell you a small story. My daughter was sick, and she was diagnosed with mono when she was in high school. And I was in a board meeting and my office was attached to the board room. And I had a board member that was very high personality and I'm a high personality too, and so he and I would often get into these challenges of one another. And as CEO, I'm supposed to accept that, and generally I did, and I kind of facilitated it. But when I heard my daughter was sick, my energy and my life is driven by my children and my wife, and so when I heard that I was just really affected by it. And so of course I walked into the board room moments after that, and within 15 minutes he was, not attacking, but he was on me again, and to me that was a game-on moment. And my back went up and I leaned in, and it was one of the most intense interactions of my career. Joe: Did I say anything inappropriate? No. Could I have taken a different track? For sure. Could you have heard a pin drop in the room? Absolutely. And he and I went at it, and then afterward he finally asked me what was different about today, and I said, "Here's why." "So why didn't you tell me that?" I said, "You never asked a question. You've never asked me a question about me ever." Joe: And so that to me is one of the largest demonstrations. You can have tremendous people around you, but if you never ask them anything about them, how you possibly going to get the most out of the relationship? You won't. So that would be most advice is really get the questions right, and really care about the answers. And then once you know the answers, if the meeting that you were going to have isn't possible now, talk about the other thing. Go there. Joe: I will say this though. There's a lot of conversation about empathy right now. I think empathy is one of the most difficult things. Pure definition, I see the world as you do. I think that's really, really hard, but I do think if you listen to people and have the right conversation, you can get closer and closer to their life experiences. But I think empathy is one of the most challenging things in the world. Luke: And it sounds like from what you're saying, a huge part in working with clients or working with your team is having a relationship with them- Joe: Yeah. Sure. Luke: ... and like a pure relationship. And I definitely agree with you that that understanding and that ability to emphasize with people, granted it is very difficult to do that, but putting your effort into that shows and people definitely can appreciate that. Joe: So for you, what is your favorite place on campus here? Luke: My favorite place? Probably Cool Beans. Joe: Cool Beans. Why? Luke: It's just a place where usually I'm studying in the science library or Dinand, and it's just like a place where go back, get a coffee, kind of decompress and just kind of enjoy myself for a little bit before I go back to studying. Joe: So it's comforting to you, right? Luke: Yeah. Definitely. Joe: It allows you... Do you think better there? Luke: Yeah. I do. Joe: So that's really interesting question, isn't it? Luke: Yeah, it is. Joe: So if I want to have a- Luke: It is. Yeah. Joe: ... really interesting conversation with you, that would be the place we should go. Luke: True. Joe: We shouldn't go where I want to go. If I want to have a conversation about you, then I need to find where you're most comfortable. And then let's go there. Joe: So here's an interesting thing. When I was first a manager, there were all these books about management, leadership, and... I had some managers that, "We're going to adopt this book." You know what? That's not really what we should do. Think about Holy Cross. When you read all these books we read, you're only two years in and I was here for four years. I didn't commit to memory everything I read, but I adapted my life to certain principles that I learned, and then I paid attention to the professors who have read far more than I ever would read about a specific topic. I wasn't trying to memorize all of it or have my life guided verbatim with everything I learned. It was really about this will help me shape it. Joe: So there was this thing called manage by walking around. So, okay. We're going to manage by walking around, which was about visibility. People would get feedback that managers weren't visible, so we have to be more visible. So what managers would do... I wasn't a manager. I was becoming a manager. They would just appear. So what would your reaction be if you're in the middle of doing something and a person that you never see suddenly appears? What would your reaction be do you think? Luke: I would probably be first, like if it was my boss or something that came over, I would definitely make sure I was really paying attention to everything I'm doing and doing it the best I can, and then try to get some type of one-on-one interaction with them if I never see them and kind of put a face to their name. Joe: So you're taking the burden of that. It's supposed to be them making you feel good, and you're feeling like you have your change your behaviors- Luke: Work harder and- Joe: Yeah. Exactly. Luke: ... yeah. Yeah. You feel on the spot. Yeah. Joe: Precisely. I was annoyed because I don't... they weren't adding any value to me. So I thought that was really... to be honest with you, I thought that was stupid, a really stupid guiding principle. So I think management by walking together is better. Joe: So what I do and have done is I go get somebody and say, "Let's go take a walk." And it's fascinating what happens when you take a walk with someone versus sitting in a small space with someone. There's a lot going on. You can point out things, say, "Hey." It's just more comforting, more casual, and so that's the way I began doing it. And I learned so much about people getting, again, closer to empathy by walking with them as opposed to walking into their environment and hovering over them and making them feel like I was participating, when in fact, I really wasn't. Joe: I didn't do it but once or twice. I thought it was foolish, and then I did this other thing. It was really great. So that's how I did my one-on-ones and my up-to-speeds and all that stuff with people, which was great. Luke: Because sometimes in my opinion, it can feel like if you have a boss hovering over you, it almost feels like they're micromanaging you. And that kind of makes you feel a little degraded and kind of, "Hey, I can do my job. I don't need him watching over me." Joe: Right. Luke: And I think that's a great idea of walking around with whoever is in your company and really, like I was saying, building that relationship with them. Joe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, because it's... You break barriers that way. Joe: I had a guy that worked for me, 6'7", and I used to get feedback that he would be intimidating sometimes. He's the nicest guy, and what he would do is he would walk up to someone when they were sitting at their desk and he'd lean over them. He was like Godzilla. And they would be so intimidated by his size, but he was the nicest guy. And all I told him to do was just sit down. Just sit down with them. And then he... And that barrier went away. It was fine. But he just, he wasn't intimidating, but he... intending to be intimidating. Luke: And building that relationship and how have you as a leader within the company that you're starting right now, siY, how have you adopted those same principles into, hey, now you're the CEO. Now you're running this company. You're at the very top. How have you done that as the head of this company? Joe: The truth of that is when you're running a big company like I've had the fortune of doing, you have a platform. I have employed large numbers of employees that work for me and if there's something that I want to convey, get across, I have resources all over the place. I don't have that now. I have a virtual company essentially. And so, I have a large group of executives that I have great regard for that work as part of my network. I have some other people that subcontract work to me. So my influence has to be demonstrated in a very, very different way. Joe: So I'm on the front end of the business creating demand for what we do at siY, and then engaging these folks as independent people. But they buy into the mission. It goes back to what I said before, we have values in our company, we have behavioral expectations, and then we have a vision to create environments where dialog leads to impact. It's not to create a dialog, but it's actually to have an impact. And everybody agrees with that. Joe: So we go together in our own walks of life, not associated entirely to siY, but when we come together, that's who we are. So it's a very different experience for me, but one that has yielded so many incredible situations that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to do. Luke: At siY, could you tell me a little more about what you do? Joe: Sure. Luke: How you got the name? Joe: Let me tell you the story on the name because I think that really kind of demonstrates my career journey. When I came out of WPI, I was a chemical engineer. That was 1983. Market wasn't so good. Economy was rough. So I ended up taking a job as a buyer. And I figured, my father always said, "You may not be the biggest," which I'm not, "you may not be the smartest," I'm not, "but no one should ever out work you." So I figured if I get a job, I'll just work really, really hard and then I'll create opportunities for myself. Which I was fortunate to do. Joe: And the first big job I got was a safety engineer. So, I was working at a chemical plant focused on safety. And what I found was that the mechanism of creating a safe environment for people was vital to being successful in business, but attitudes and behavior were so important in order for that environment to actually be created. Joe: So the first part of be safe was physical safety. And then I experienced that, and then I also had experiences as a manager, and I realized that emotional safety is also very important. Going back to that conversation we had just a few moments ago, people have stuff going on in their lives. It's actually okay to cry and laugh. Don't judge people because they have emotion. Actually try and help them leverage their emotion in a positive way. So emotional safety was really, really important. I always say every person who's ever worked for me has cried at some point, not because I'm yelling or mean to them, but because they have something going on in their life and they need to express it. Joe: The other one is people are really, really smart and they have a lot of experiences. They may be different experiences, but I respect you, Luke, for what you've done already. And those experiences that you have and your intellect, I need to learn from you just as you're learning from me. But a lot of people don't do that because you don't have my experience. You don't have gray hair yet. So therefore, your experiences aren't really relevant. Not true. Absolutely not true. Luke: Right. Joe: So the other one is intellectual safety. I need to create an environment where you can feel that whatever experience and intellect you have can be applied. So those are three parts. Joe: I started with a triangle, and then I realized cyber safety is very, very important in the world we're in today. Having had my identification stolen, I know that personally. So now I call that the safety diamond. So physical, intellectual, emotional, and cyber safety. So we talk about that. So be safe. Inspired is... I'm not an alarm clock. You have to get out of bed in the morning, but then I'm going to ask you one question. What are you most passionate about? That question I ask you, if you could spend all of your time doing something, what would it be? And once you tell me that, if you're willing to tell me that, let's focus on that and I'll inspire the hell out of you to be able to go after that dream. I will push you in ways that will allow you to live that dream. That's the inspired part. Joe: And then you, in my company it's YOU, there's something about you, maybe more than one thing, that's truly unique. It's not that you're an economics major. There's a lot of economics majors. There's something about you, and let's find out what that is and let's celebrate that. So create a safe environment, find your passion, inspire you to continue to peck away at that every day, and then celebrate what's unique about you, that's be safe; be inspired; be you. Joe: The logo of my company is a wave. I grew up going to Maine in the summer. Surfed a little bit. Always found that the whole surfing thing, you have to work really, really hard. You have to be strategic to choose when to go. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, then you... some people get mad and they leave, but you just go back out until you get that. And when you get that wave, it is the best feeling in the world. Luke: It's great, yeah. Joe: It is absolutely one of the best feelings ever, and that's why the wave's there. And the blue is the eyes of my kids. And so every time I look at it, I see my children, which is the source of a great deal of energy for me. Luke: Totally. Joe: So that's why that's where that is. And my daughter designed it for me. And she's a Holy Cross grad. Luke: Oh nice. Joe: So, be safe; be inspired; be you; that's how that all came together, and where that comes to live is we do advisory work for small to mid-sized companies, and we help them... we bring people with experiences that they normally wouldn't be able to access due to the size of their company, and we help them do things with strategy, culture, and... sometimes it's the finances and the business, but it's always strategy and culture. But everything we do starts with people. And if we are not allowed to interact with the people, we can't do business with them because that's where it all starts. So, that's what we do. Luke: That's nice. Yeah. A consulting firm for- Joe: Yeah, we do advisory consulting. Luke: Yeah, for those small companies who might not be able to access- Joe: That's right. Luke: ... the resources of a large consulting firm like McKinsey or something like that. Joe: Right. With have the skills of companies, the larger companies, but we do it at a point where, price point, and also a participation point that's a little different. Luke: And back to what you were saying about... personal interaction and culture, do you mean the culture within that said company? Joe: Yes. But that's a great question because culture is all about interactions. And so, interactions are not just the employees or the team or whatever the term is for the company; it's really whoever you interact with. So there's a supplier interaction. There's a customer interaction. There's a community interaction. And if it's a privately held business, there's a family interaction. So you have to be concerned and confident in all of those things. Joe: We take an operator's view. So we try and sit on the side of the table of the owner or the leaders, and that's how we come at it every day. We don't come in with a mechanism, we're going to say, "This is how you do it." We're going to adapt our business to... or excuse me, our approach to what is most appropriate for the company that we're doing business with. And we're not for everybody because not everybody wants to share everything about what they do. Luke: Very true. Luke: So essentially, reiterating, you go in. For each different client you work with, do you attack that operation differently? Like so for company X, you might advise them this way, but then for this company, you're doing it in a different way. Do you approach each person you work with the same, or do you kind of take it as a case-by-case scenario? Joe: I would say... That's a great, that's a very good question because I think there has to be somewhat of an approach that's consistent- Luke: Sure. Yeah. Joe: ... or you can never scale it. So there is a... It always starts with an assessment. So, I always meet with the CEO. I would say 9 out of 10 times I interact with the board, if there is one. Most of the time there is. And then I talk to the most senior leaders of the company. And then I walk the business with them, going back to my walking thing. I want to see the business myself. Because sometimes people describe the business to you in a room, and then you go out, and like that is not at all what's going on here. So you get a really good sense right away how people react to people. Joe: So for example, I have had numerous situations where a CEO would tell me, "I am absolutely connected with the employees of the company." And then they walk out there, and everybody turns away as they walk in. And so that's not... So they're missing something there. Joe: So it's really, the assessment is, tell me about your business. Let me talk to some people so that I can balance it. Let's go for a walk. And then let's come back. I'll give you some observations and some thoughts on it. And from there, let's build a plan. What is it that you need to do? Joe: And it could be that we help people kind of restate their vision. We help people understand the value system that actually exists within their business. Have they been consistent there? And spend some time on the truths of the company. What is it that is actually going on here? And then from there, I would say that all the time there's a transformation happening in the business. Joe: If you go back to the first question you asked me about Holy Cross and the Jesuits, that it's evolution. It's about evolution, evolving as people. And that's what happens in companies too. You may have a great idea as an entrepreneur but it's not going to last forever. In fact, in your lifetime- Luke: Very true. Yeah. Joe: ... ideas come and go far more quickly than they did when I was starting at your age. So, we have to be aware of those changes, and we spend a lot of time with preparing the company for a transformative change. Joe: So for example, if you have a product that's been great, you've made money, and then suddenly it's starting to decline, well, it could be that the team that you have around you is really good for that, but where you need to go, it's not. So we come in as a third party and help you see the things that you wouldn't otherwise see. Joe: Because it's hard. Change is very difficult, especially when it becomes personal. Sometimes people aren't the right people and you have to help them see that, and if they can change, great. If they can't, then maybe you need to get someone different. So we do that too. We help people do it. Joe: But we try and work with companies that are probably between 50 million and a billion and a half to two billion in size. And we always work with the most senior people in the company. And we get in early, and then we help create plans, and generally we'll stay for maybe six months, and then if they want us to operate, we will, but generally, they don't. Joe: And then I have a lot of clients personally that I work with the CEO in an advisory capacity and I'm kind of a confidant to them. So we spend time talking about the business and I get to help them. Because CEO jobs are very lonely, and so they don't have anybody to talk to, so I become that person for them. So, that's just Joe Morgan. It's part of siY, but it's not the total focus. Luke: And going back to your Holy Cross education, were there any times when you were at Holy Cross or any other school in Worcester where you thought about wanting to do that in the future? Wanting to be in this line of work that you're currently in? Joe: I'll tell you, my parents were schoolteachers so we didn't talk about business. But if I was honest about it, if I go back to my first job, if I had been aware of what I was actually doing, I think the answer would have been yes, but I wasn't. I worked. I made money. I wanted... My wife and I went to Holy Cross. We got married in 1983. We've been married for 36 years. Love of my life and my best friend. Very, very fortunate. But I thought about I need a job. I'm going to advance. Hopefully as I advance, I'll get more responsibility, but I don't think it was until I got exposed to presidents of companies that I realized there was a better way. And it was at that time when I was in my late 20s where I thought, "I think I can do this better." Joe: Now, I had great mentors that were around me that taught me different things. Like my father-in-law is a finance guy. I remember when I was just out of Holy Cross, my wife Amy and I went down to visit her parents in Washington, DC, and I went to his office. The people loved him. They absolutely loved him. But they would do anything for him too, and they worked incredibly hard. And I thought, "Why aren't all the executives like that?" Luke: Right. Interesting. Joe: Because wouldn't it be great if they were? Luke: Yeah. It would be. Yeah. Joe: And they're not. They're just not. And he was just such a great guy. Joe: And then I worked for an entrepreneur, and he said, "I need you to go do things that I can't do in the role that I'm in, but I have your back." And I thought, "Wow. He trusts me. What a great thing. I'll go do anything now that I know that." I had another mentor, he taught me about people. He said, "It's all about the people, Joe." And he communicated and he... I've told this story before, but when you're interviewed, he'd say, "Cross your legs," which I'm doing right now. And I did. And I had short socks, and you could see skin. The next day... You'll never have this in your career, interoffice envelope. You ever heard of that? Luke: No, I haven't. No. Joe: So it's an envelope that you write someone's name on and then you put it in the mailbox, and it gets delivered. Luke: Okay. Yeah. Joe: And there's a little red string on the back that you put on this little circle thing that's a clasp. Luke: Got it. Joe: So and the next day I get an interoffice envelope from the president. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Did I do something wrong?" And I open it up and it's... I'll show you right now, long socks. So I've always worn long socks. Joe: So the little things matter. Shine your shoes. Clean your car. It's all the little stuff. Luke: It's all attention to detail, stuff like that. Joe: Exactly. Always. And that was very, very important to me in my development as a career. Joe: But I will say, going back to my first job, I was an ice cream maker in Ogunquit, Maine at the Viking. It's not there anymore. Mrs. Everson was the owner, and to be a cashier was like a big thing because you're holding the money at the company, right? And to get a key to get into the business when the family wasn't there was also a big thing. I got both of those. Luke: Wow. Joe: I got to be a cashier and my sister was a cashier too, but I got to be a cashier, and they gave me the key to make the ice cream. But the thing that I remember absolutely the most was when you give people back change, this is how you do it. So the George Washington, Lincoln, Hamilton, the face is always in the same direction. And how many times... You probably... I don't even know if you use money, but... cash. Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joe: You may just use a card. Luke: Yeah. Joe: Today, nobody... They just hand the money to you. It's unbelievable. It drives me absolutely crazy. Luke: I never thought about that. Joe: But it's the attention to detail and respecting that it's my money actually. I just bought something from you. It's actually my money. So give it back to me with respect. That's what she taught me. So those are the things... Joe: I wish I had a mentor when I was your age about business that allowed me to kind of coagulate all these experiences because I think I would have been... I think I would have done something on my own earlier, but I also got married when I was 23, so we began a life shortly thereafter together, and so you get in that groove, that swim lane, and it wasn't until about three years ago that I decided to start my own business. Luke: And it's those very small but important attentions to detail that really build your character and really show you how a business should operate and how you should operate in life. But however, you got married at 23, and then you were in jobs. It's definitely a difficult and very courageous decision to step out of that and then go and start your own business. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit to about the courage that entrepreneurs have to have if they want to succeed? Joe: My courage at this stage is probably different than the courage at your stage possibly. I've got a large network. I've been fortunate in some circumstances. I do fund my own business, so I'm not... I don't have any investors or anything. I don't have any partners per se. Joe: The courage for me was the change. It was less the financial implication, but it was more... But I will say right now, it's a financial implication because what I've learned, I want to address... because I have a couple other things that will become... I'll hire employees to do these other things. So now I have to make a substantial investment to make those happen. So that's going to require some courage on my side to go with it, right? Joe: But I would say that the thing that was the catalyst... This was actually an absolute true story. I was at church on a Sunday, and I was in a situation with a business that I was CEO of. It was a difficult situation, and the priest is fantastic at our church, and... in his homily he told a story about when he was in... being prepared to become a priest. He said that he was walking. He was distraught about something. He was walking in the hills and he found himself in a place where he really wasn't paying attention and suddenly, he can't go back because the crevice was so large. And he doesn't really even know exactly how he got there. And the only thing he could do was go forward. And had he been totally cognizant of the situation, he never would have gotten himself into that particular spot. Joe: So at that moment in church, I decided, I am going to go do this. That was when I decided to do this. Luke: Wow. Joe: And it was because of my faith and it was because- Luke: Your faith. Yeah. Joe: ... of that story, and I said, "This is my moment. I have stepped across. I can't go back so I'm going forward." And I actually went and resigned the next day. Luke: Wow. Joe: Now I had to talk to my wife about it, of course. And that was the courageous part, because it was hard. We were going to eat, we had a house, and all that stuff. It's not like that. But it was a big difference, and our lives changed as a result of that. Joe: And so, I went, and I actually went to Gethsemani in where Thomas Merton was as a monk, and I spent three days there in silence, which is hard to believe. I didn't talk for three days. I went to mass six or seven times a day, and I read a lot of books and I went walking in the woods. And here's what I got from that experience is silence is the loudest experience you'll ever have. And just by being alone in the woods, I heard things that I hadn't heard. And that was tragic to me because I had been working and traveling, and I missed out on so much. And I realized that I had missed a spontaneity in life by traveling and doing all that I had done and my career. I never missed a birthday, I never missed an anniversary, I never missed any of the planned things, but I missed all the things when your son or daughter comes home and someone's mean to them at school, or something happened that was great. I wasn't there. I wasn't there. And I made a vow that if I was able to make this change that I would be more aware of that. Joe: Now I'm not perfect, but I work every day to try and be more in the spontaneity of life. And that's a lesson is to... sometimes you have to step out of what you have to see that there's so much more. Like I wouldn't be doing this today probably if I was in the other situation. My schedule would be too busy. Well, I made this a priority because I love Holy Cross and I want to give back, and if one person walks away from this conversation feeling better about themselves, or they see there's something that they can do now that they might have not really thought possible, then Luke, you and I just spent a good 20, 30 minutes together. And that's the way I would say I feel now. Luke: It's powerful, yeah. Joe: Yeah, it's big. For me it works. Luke: That's amazing about the faith and church. That's... yeah. That's unbelievable. Joe: He's fantastic. Actually the other priest, we have... There's only one Jesuit in Tennessee and he graduated with Father Bruce. He went to Holy Cross, Class of '81. Yeah. So he's great too. Yeah, he's awesome. It wasn't his story though. Luke: Just going back to Worcester, that's a lot to digest. But some more lighthearted stuff now. Grew up in Worcester. Went to school in Worcester. I got to know, best spot, restaurant. What do you think? Joe: Wow. That's a great question. Luke: There's a lot of good ones. Joe: My favorite place is no longer there, which was the Millbrook Diner, which you probably have never heard of. So that's a good question. What's the favorite... There's... I would say where I usually go is either Miss Woo's or The Boy. And then I used to go to the... What's the diner across the street? Part... from the Boulevard. That's where we used to go, but I don't think that- Luke: I know- Joe: You know what I'm talking about? Luke: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Joe: But I would- Luke: I can't think of the name. Joe: That's a good... I don't know. That's a... I don't know. There's it's many new places here. What the heck? Luke: Yeah, there are. Joe: So, I will tell you this. Kelley Square today, I did go through Kelley Square, which is when I went to St. John's in Shrewsbury, I had a brother, Brother William taught us. He said he used to close his eyes and just drive through. Continues to be the case. The worst place, although with the new baseball stadium, I suppose it's going to be addressed. Very happy that the Sox are coming to Worcester. We're happy about that, yup. Joe: I'm a diner guy, to be honest with you, so I love all the diners. That would be the way I grew up. Luke: Yeah, diners are great. Yeah. Luke: Another kind of just lighthearted question. But as a business executive, obviously you got to be very in-tune with what's going on in society. Are there any new type of trends in social media or in the news that have really caught your eye? Joe: Yeah. So without getting too political, I will say that I have a problem with current leadership. It does matter how you do what you do. It's not just the outcome. So the mechanism, the value system, and how you actually approach leadership matters a lot to me. So, I'm going to add something here that is a little bit of a twist on your question, but I think it'll kind of bring- Luke: Sure. Joe: ... a few things together. Joe: So when I was running a bigger company, I had a platform and I had a responsibility as the CEO of the company, I felt, to talk about the question that you just asked me about. If we're having a bad economic period, 2008 I was CEO of a company, economic crash, I got in front of everybody and said, "Okay, we got problems. Here's what's going to have to happen. We're going to have to freeze... We might have to have some layoffs," but I was honest and transparent with everybody. Very, very difficult. Joe: So macroeconomic trends, I think, if I were running a bigger company, this issue with the virus from China- Luke: Coronavirus. Joe: ... everybody's concerned about that. They should be. Whether it'll be bigger than people think it is at the moment, I don't know. I'm not an expert in that area, but I do think we need to be aware of it. So I think we need to convey these things. Joe: But what's most troubling to me is that we can't seem to get to a common agenda. We can't figure that out. And if the country were a business, we'd go out of business. And so, I believe that some of the business principles can be brought to that conversation. So I started a thing called The Bridge. And The Bridge is bringing people from different perspectives together. And I've done it in Ohio. I've had public forum in Ohio with groups of people, and now I'm doing it in Nashville on the 18th of this month. Joe: And people that are helping me facilitate this are four people. Well, there's three that's going to do this one. There's Troy Smith. He's an African American leader in the city. Great guy. He did some rap stuff when he was a kid. He grew up in the hood as he told me. We couldn't in some ways be any more different, but we're actually found a common platform. Jenn Miller is an inclusion diversity expert. She does this for businesses. She too is African American. Has got seven kids. Absolutely fantastic person. And then Chloe Adams. Chloe Adams is, she's 25. She went to Auburn University as a marketing communications person. And I got to know her because my office is there and she's just a direct communicator and appeals to her generation. Joe: So we're having a meeting where we're bringing people together, about two groups of 40, and we're going to have a conversation about the common platform. And the four of us are going to tell a little story of why this is so important to us, and I want to show people that it's possible to not solve it, but to agree that we can address things together. That we're going to have this conversation. And so we're addressing it through the lens of men and women, black and white, or Asian, what... Indian. Luke: Sure. Joe: Different races, ages, and orientation. Bring people... It doesn't matter. It's the you, YOU. We're trying to bring as much diversity- Joe: ... into that conversation. And then show... These will be people that don't know each other, and they'll be able to sit in a room and have a conversation. And just by virtue of bringing this up, it's amazing how many people want to participate in a conversation. Joe: Now not sure where it's going to go and I don't really care at the moment where it goes, but I think it can be a bit of a movement, and I'm really excited about where we can take it. Joe: So that's probably a part of where my energy is now being focused because I think without figuring this out, it's just not helpful. So that's a big part for me. Luke: It's super important to understand everybody and everyone's background, and like you were saying, that whole empathy and understanding where people are coming from, their beliefs and stuff like that- Joe: Right. Luke: ... instead of shying away from that, embracing everybody and figuring out... or not even figuring out problems in society or whatever, in a company, but just addressing those issues and talking about it and being united, that's huge in my opinion. Yeah. Joe: Think about this conversation. We don't know each other that well, right? Luke: Right. Joe: But we were educated by the same institution, similar principles, many decades apart. But the expectation of us is the same. We're to take this platform and bring it into the world, not pass judgment on people, but bring people together. And then evolve as we learn from others and make an impact that's different tomorrow than it is today because we've evolved. We've learned. That's the part. But you can't dig in too early. And as long as you're willing to listen and learn and talk, we can make a difference. And I will not be dissuaded from that. I will not. And there are people that get angry about these things and they want to dig in on one issue or they disagree, but that's part of this. I'm not right, but I can facilitate a conversation. And I think that's a skillset that I would really recommend continue to let evolve for yourself is be able to facilitate and bring people into the conversation because the most quiet person in the room is maybe the one that's most valuable. Just because people process, you know? Luke: And that's something that I was taught growing up as well. My dad, I always remember him talking to me about listening to everybody in the room. That's what he would say. "Listen to everybody in the room. Everybody can offer something unique and bring something to the table. And comprehend that, understand that, and then use that to move forward." Joe: Right. Luke: And yeah, that's big. Joe: Because if you think about it metaphorically, it's like making a cake or some... I don't know, some meal or whatever. If you look at the people as being the ingredients, you don't put equal amounts of everything. But if every person is an ingredient, you just take the right amounts, oh my gosh, it's like the best cake ever, right? Luke: Yup. Joe: And that's, I think, what I always think about when I'm in a room is, we're trying to bake something. We're try to make something together. And I don't know if I heard someone say this or I made this up myself, but every time we're together, just today, this will never happen again. Luke: True. Joe: Once in history will you and I be sitting in this room at this time of the day under this circumstance. So if we don't walk away... if we can walk away with one thing from that and then tell someone else and do something different, what a great experience. And if you have more people in the room, wow. So let's take full advantage of that. Because we are blessed to be able to do these things. Luke: Completely agree. Yeah. And we'll just wrap it up here briefly. Joe: Sure. Luke: But one last thing about Holy Cross. What was your favorite class? Were there any... I know you're a chemistry major, but were there any other... obviously the liberal arts education, learning more about just the specific major you're in, were there any big classes that jumped out at you and really help you even today? Joe: I think the one that I talk about often is I took a course on, I don't know if it was about atheism, but it was taught by an atheist. And I thought that was really interesting because, of course, being void of faith given how I grew up, I said the rosary every day and went to mass and all that stuff. But I just thought it was really interesting to have someone with such conviction about a totally opposing view, but also being open to the others and being able to teach us about that. And that to me gave great confirmation of what the Jesuit, what I took away from one of the Jesuit pillars was, "We will teach you from those that have depth of understanding and belief as opposed to someone that has a surface level understanding and just expose you to the topic." And I thought that was fantastic. Joe: Now he didn't convert me to atheism obviously, but it really in some ways confirmed my faith. But I would not have thought about that in a way that I have. And I also think that he moved my lack of judgment, how I don't judge people, forward because I might have had a very negative reaction to an atheist. But in that course, I learned that he too is good person. He just has a different viewpoint. And I thought that was fantastic. Joe: I played soccer at Holy Cross so I cannot leave this conversation without saying that the guys that I played soccer with, those stories continue, and we just had a blast. And being a student athlete was fantastic. We had so much fun. We had so much fun. Luke: All right. Joe: Luke, thank you. Luke: Yeah, thank you. Joe: This was great. Luke: Appreciate it. Joe: Awesome. Luke: Definitely. Joe: So much fun. Good luck to you. Luke: Thank you. You as well. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. Maura: If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

We have sold over 120 businesses here at Quiet Light but this is the first time we've employed the term text list. Does texting make your business blow up? The young entrepreneur we are talking with today is at the forefront of mobile marketing with his company, Conversmart. When done right, mobile marketing gives customers using smartphones personalized information so that they can get what they need exactly when they need it. SMS subscriptions have begun to bypass email subscriptions with their elevated engagement and conversion rates. Arri Bagah was a computer science major who learned coding to make money as a side hustle in college. After college, he got into messenger marketing with Facebook messenger at an ad agency. He started Conversmart and began to explore looking outside traditional marketing channels for his clients. Arris has quickly become an expert in the mobile messaging space, helping his customers generate millions in additional revenue. Episode Highlights: The difference between message marketing and email marketing by numbers. The advantages of message marketing. How the tool allows for easy customer opt-in. Specific examples of the client conversion rates. Growth opportunities for potential buyers. Categories or spaces where message marketing works best. Ways to collect subscribers. Average return on ad spend. Messaging frequency of a successful text messaging campaign. Costs to get started in message marketing. The ins and outs of opt-in compliance. Advice for all types of eCommerce businesses looking to use message marketing. Transcription: Mark: Joe recently you asked me to make a change to our site; a pretty simple change. And that was to give some of our buyers, the people that want to know when we release a new listing and put it back up a little bit, anyone that's out there wanting to buy they want to know when we release a new listing and they want to know first, right? Everyone wants to be first in line for that. So you made a suggestion which we're going to implement here in the coming months which is to add text messaging; SMS alerts when we release a new listing. And I know this didn't just come from you sitting around and saying hey… Joe: Yes it did. I come up with all these great ideas in my head. I don't get any help from anybody else; just a clarification. Mark: You know I'm not sure I want to; okay fine, this was 100% your idea based on somebody that you talked to on the podcast. Joe: Alright, that's true. Mark: Alright who did you talk to and why are we talking about SMS texting? It sounds invasive to me. It sounds like something I wouldn't necessarily want but the data doesn't really agree with me at all as it often doesn't. Joe: Yeah, it doesn't agree with you at all or me. Talk to teenagers this is what they do. And actually, they don't even text now it's just a snap. But in Seattle… Mark: You have to get on the TikTok train, that's where it is now; Tiktok. Joe: Actually that's true. Mark: Yeah so there you go. Joe: I'm hearing about that as well. You have a teenage girl so you know. Should we be talking about our kids? No, they don't want to hear about our kids. Mark: So we talk about my kids will be on here forever. And like it's two minutes each that's like 15 minutes. Alright, SMS text messaging let's get back on that. Joe: I was at a Blue Ribbon Mastermind in Seattle with Brad and Chris and this young kid gets up on stage and he presents on SMS text messaging and how it impacts engagement with customers and he starts talking about 98% open rates and much, much higher conversion rates. And the average order value in all of this stuff and somebody we know, somebody we've sold a business to engaged with him afterwards and hired him afterwards and his business has blown up. I don't want to give his name because people want to talk to him and we keep referring people to him and he's just trying to make a living and people want to talk to him about how he's doing it. So I'm not going to give his name but his business has absolutely blown up. So I ended up connecting with Arri; Arri Bagah, he's a kid guys. Yeah, he's a kid to me. I got gray on my chin. He's like 24 or 25 years old but he's at the forefront of the next evolution of e-mail marketing which is SMS marketing. It's capturing mobile phone numbers, doing specific marketing directly to that mobile number, and it's amazing. When you're online shopping now; this is how he describes it now, if you're online shopping on your mobile phone and someone says subscribe and you click on it and it's the old school way to subscribe it's your email address and then you've got to go confirm in your inbox and then all these multiple steps. Now with SMS and if it's done right and you subscribe you can confirm it right there on your phone and then you get that coupon code right there on your phone and then you could place the order right there on your phone. It's like so quick; 15 seconds versus multiple steps in multiple places. So there is a little bit of that and a whole lot of you want to help your customers, you want to get good information in front of them. They want information to get to them in a way in which they live now which is on their mobile devices SMS is the way to go. You don't have to check your e-mail. It just pops up. There's a blue dot. I'm looking at my phone right now. There's a blue dot on my phone right now. I think it's probably from you Mark. Somebody texted me and if I want to make it go away I have to click it. I have to do that. Same with Messenger and Facebook; it shows up on my phone. I could get rid of it. So the engagement is much higher, conversion rate is much higher; gosh if I could just give a statistic here. He gave me something like a 25 time ROAS, return on ad spend. So if you spend a dollar you're getting $25 back. That's amazing. I think they guarantee a 15-time ROAS. It's incredible. That's all I have to say about it. Mark: That's amazing. I think the emphasis here because we; let's bring this back to what we talk about on this podcast all the time, we're talking about buying and selling internet-based businesses and for somebody buying we're looking at how can we grow what we're acquiring here. And look we know Facebook we know Google but let's face it Mark Zuckerberg has gotten greedy. It's really, really difficult to make Facebook pay well. And if you had a 25 ROAS on Facebook you'd be selling a course next because that's what people do. You're usually happy if you have that 3 ROAS on Facebook. Google is the same sort of thing. And I think it's important for us to look outside of what we think are the most profitable marketing channels. Look all the data does actually point the same direction. The most profitable marketing channels are the ones that you own; email and email we know is cluttered so SMS text makes a lot of sense if you have permission to be able to send SMS texting because no one else is doing it. So it's going to be a really great channel. I'm excited to listen to this because you asked me to add this as an option. I'd like to hear from buyers as well would you want to have text alerts when we release a new list and I think it's a great idea to do. Obviously, it would be opt-in only but it would be a great way to be right at the forefront of that. I'm excited to listen to this and also learn how to implement this as a system within Quiet Light Brokerage. It's fantastic. Joe: Yeah. You just said opt-in only; you can opt-in, you can opt-out. All of that is right there. So you just invited all of the buyers in the audience to reach out to you and let you know so why don't you give out your cell number so you can have them all text you and say yeah man implement this. Mark: Yeah. Joe: No, don't do that. Mark: Or just e-mail me, Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com and then when I reply they'll have my cell phone number because it's right there at the signature. Joe: I want you all to harass Mark and stay on top of him on this one because I think it's going to be a game-changer for you the buyers to be notified on your phone that there's a new listing that's launching. Right now we're launching one in four hours. Wouldn't you love to be notified two hours in advance of the e-mail launch? It would be great. I think it's a great service that we can do for you and I think it's a great service that all the e-commerce SAS content owners can do out there for their audience as well. So let's stop talking and go to it. Here we go. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we're going to talk about something I'm pretty clueless on which is text marketing, SMS marketing, we've got an expert in the area. I met him at Blue Ribbon Mastermind one Ezra Firestone's Mastermind groups. His name is Arri Bagah. Ari welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Arri: Thanks so much for having me, Joe. Joe: I'm so glad you're here and I'm going to call out where you are actually because Ramone Van Miller has been on the podcast as well. He's a good friend of Quiet Light. We're actually out filming in California now telling his story and you're sitting in his kitchen because you're working with him on one of his businesses, correct? Arri: Yeah. That's exactly why I'm here. Joe: So folks those that actually go to the YouTube page and get to see this, you'll get to see a Ramone's kitchen in the background; at least his guest house at the very least. Alright, Arri tell us about what the heck is text message marketing and tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into it. Arri: So I went to Roosevelt University in downtown Chicago for computer science and before I started I met a friend who had like a really nice apartment in downtown Chicago and I just asked hey how did you get that apartment? And then he was like hey I code and build websites. I was like cool I want that apartment. That's how he got this and that's probably what I should do too; to code web sites for people and make money. So fast forward I learned how to code throughout like the first semester. And then it will be like do a lot of the homework just like to learn how to do it myself. And then I decided if I can learn how to code myself then I can just like keep doing it. And that's where like my entrepreneurship journey started. I built a couple of web sites and then got into Facebook marketing. So I decided to move to LA. I got a job at an agency and before that's when I got into Messenger marketing which is a way for brands to leverage Facebook Messenger to market. So at Facebook Messenger marketing, we're seeing really good results. And at this agency, I was running Messenger marketing for like 15 different e-commerce brands at once and it was pretty, pretty crazy. I learned a lot. I got a lot of experience doing it. And I decided to do it for myself. And that's when I left that agency and started Conversmart. And we've grown pretty much since and then got into text messaging this year. And I'm super excited about text messaging because it's a whole different way for brands to be able to reach their customers. It's more direct. And a lot of the brands that we work with have seen really great results. So that's kind of like how everything started. Joe: So we've had you know guys like Mike Jackness who we're friends with, I sold one of Mike's businesses for him. He's an expert in e-commerce space. He runs EcomCrew. He talks all around the world on e-mail marketing with Klaviyo. Talk to; for those that are new to the space and text message marketing, talk to us about the difference in terms of the open rates and conversion rates and how you're able to reach people and things of that nature. Arri: Yeah that's a great question. I think email marketing is great. It still works. Billions of dollars generated each year through email. But the problem with email is that everybody is doing it. Especially with this season; the Black Friday holiday season, people are sending like 3 to 5 emails per day so as you can see the open rates and performance just completely drops when everybody is sending that much volume in emails. So the difference is that with text there are not a lot of people doing it. And if people are; people are super-specific to like which text or which brands they subscribe to so there's not a lot of competition when you're able to reach that customer directly. And one of the things that we've seen is that if you look at the traffic split for your e-commerce store the majority of the traffic is probably mobile already. So if somebody is like on their cell phone browsing your web site and you want to get them on your list right now brands have pop-ups and really if you give somebody a coupon and they have to leave your web site and go to their email check that email, get that coupon and hopefully come back to site and you can see how many distractions there are in the e-mail inbox. Joe: True. Arri: So there is friction right there already. Whereas with text you get that customer, they're already browsing on your mobile, you get them to opt-in through text, you send them a text, they get the coupon, they click and they're right back to your site. So it's a more direct way to reach customers exactly where they are. And really what we found is that we're not asking people to stop doing email marketing, we just want people to supplement the email marketing with text. Because with text you get 99% open rates, 10 to 20% click-through rates and usually double or triple the conversion rate over convert to like email. I'm working with Ramone like you mentioned on his brands. Really like he was telling me hey like our texts always like performs four times better than our emails let's do more text. So he's sending more text messages now which is something that we help with. We can talk more about what type of content people like. So we come up with really good content that people like and we're able to send it directly to them. They come back to site. They make [inaudible 00:13:29.5] just so that's like I think the big difference between email whereas email has gotten really overused and then text is just like this new channel that allows people to reach their customers directly. Joe: Let's talk about some of the steps that someone would take if they were going to move into text message marketing. With emails there's opt-in and unsubscribe and things of that nature, what's the equivalent of that with text message marketing? Arri: Yeah, so you can't talk text marketing without compliance. So with text messaging, we have to get people to double opt-in. I think the reason why people have these misconceptions about text messaging is because they've probably subscribed to a list before and people are just like spamming them. Or they didn't even subscribe and then they got messages. So one of the things that we do today is that we make sure that people are double opting in and that's one of the reasons why we see these high open rates and click-through rates because people are actually expecting you to text them rather than somebody is going through like a form and then you get their phone number and by surprise they receive a text and they're like why is this brand or business texting me. So we make sure that people are consenting to receiving those texts and that's the reason why we see really good results with it because people are now expecting you to go. Joe: So it starts with the double opt-in just like e-mail and you're capturing then those customers where currently either on someone's website on a laptop, PC, Mac, or whatever it might be or on the mobile device where you've got that pop up asking them to enter their phone number I assume obviously to get a discount or a coupon or to get information in the future. I see pop-ups all day long when I'm on websites. That's what it would be on the mobile phone or mobile device when you're asking for a phone number is that right? Arri: Yes. So basically we mostly only do it on mobile and the experience is really great because we don't even have people typing in their phone number. All they do is they tap the pop up twice and it opens up they tap to pop up the first time it opens up their messaging app they send the message and they get opt-in and we get the phone number through that. That is all powered by our platform partner called Pop Script. So yeah you know… Joe: It sounds like a breeze. Arri: Yeah like when you ask someone to put in their e-mail for a discount a lot of people put in their fake emails and especially with phone number you can expect people to put in like 222 and then whatever to get that discount, right? Now we've bypassed that by getting them to like actually send a text. So that's another compliance step that makes sure that your brand is fully compliant. So they send a text, they get opted in, and that's when they get that welcome message and get opted into the automated flow, abandon cart, and all those different things. So that's kind of like how it's set up. Joe: Okay. So can you talk to us about specific examples where you've had a client that's just been doing e-mail marketing and they brought you on board and what the change was in terms of their open rate, their conversion rate, their total revenues, and things of that nature so people listening either as current owners of online businesses or potentially buyers of online businesses and looking at growth opportunities as a buyer as well. Can you help out with an example or two? Arri: Sure. Yeah, we have a lot of examples. So one of the things that I wanted to mention is that your e-mail list is an asset and your text list is also an asset. And those are people that you can reach out to get them to make a purchase even after the rising cost of Facebook ads and all these different things. These are people that you can reach out to because you own that customer list. So if you're buying a business and they have a text list it's a really great asset to own. Joe: I got to tell you I've sold 120 businesses in the last 7 years and I don't think I've ever asked the question do you have a text list nor has anyone ever said well Joe you're asking about the e-mail list what about my text list? So it's rare. I assume it's coming in the future and that's why I've got you on today. But is the text list usually the equivalent of any e-mail list; smaller, larger, how big are they? Arri: You can have like large text lists and they usually work way more than your email list just because of the difference in the performance like being able to reach someone directly. So a few examples I think I've been like working with Ramone like you mentioned like when we started working together they were doing a lot of emails. So everybody that we work with it's always hesitant. It's like you know what I've never signed up to receive texts from a business. I don't see why anybody else in the world would want to receive texts from a business. So this is one of the things that we get all the time. And one of the things that we say is that you're not your customer. Like your customer doesn't live the same way. There are people out there who are looking to get like deals sent directly to them so they can save money. And there are all kinds of people out there who are willing to receive texts and most customers are and we have data to prove it. So that's the first thing. And then when we started doing the text messaging, when we launched our promotions and stuff like that we saw that text was performing four times better than e-mail. So we started to like send more text messages. Joe: In revenue what we got four times more revenue than email? Arri: Yeah. Joe: Do the math on that. People if you're listening and you have an e-mail campaign gosh Mike Jackness that's; ColorIt was huge on the e-mail campaigns, text messaging four times the revenue. That's crazy. Crazy good and it's time that we sort of adopted text messaging. I know that it's hard to ignore when it comes through because if you want that blue or green or whatever color of dot you have on your phone when a text comes through if you want it to go away you have to open the text. Arri: Yeah. And the crazy part is that looking at the millennial group like over I think it was 80% or so opened that text within 90 seconds. I think it was something like that. And yeah people don't always open every text they receive. So that's one of the great things about this. So we send our texts even for this Halloween campaign and things that we just launched every single text that we sent we saw well above 10 or 15% or so click through rates and the conversion rate was at least like 6% or so. And with text like you mentioned people open it and then they want to take to action, right? It's very short. And one of the things that we do is that we add images and GIFs. We design all these custom-built before; our design team does all that stuff. And I think that's one of the biggest value propositions is that we do the creative for the text so that it's not like somebody is just receiving a text from you they're also receiving like engaging content. So we design these GIFs and we improve the conversion rate. So every time we send like a GIF and text compared to just sending text we see twice the conversion rate when we add the engaging GIF. So those are some of the designs that we do. Joe: So for all non-millennials out there the proper pronunciation is GIF, it's not JIF clearly. That's an ongoing joke in my house. Sorry, I'm sharing a joke, people. So it's a visual aspect to it, it's just not content, they can see the images which is proven to bring more emotions to the surface and obviously convert higher. Are there any sort of categories or spaces in terms of products; e-commerce where it works better than others or certain things that you've tried and it just wouldn't work. You know Quiet Light Brokerage we've got a list of; you and I talked about this, we've got people that want to be notified and get notified when we launch new listings. I would think that text message marketing would work brilliantly for them because they'd get instantly notified instead of having to check their email. In Ramone's space, in his category, it works obviously brilliantly. Are there any spaces where you find that; I'm sure there are people that are listening and going oh yeah but I run a such and such type of business, it wouldn't work for mine? Is there anything that; is there truth to that, any that you can think of, or some categories that work better than others? Arri: That's a great question. I think the reason why people ask that is that they probably think that their customer is different than like everybody else. And the answer to that is as a business all you're doing is providing a solution to a problem to a specific group of people. And if your product works and if you have happy customers those people would want to hear from you and that's the reason why I say text works for like any space. I don't think there's any sort of brand that we work with that we saw okay their customer is not responding to text. And the reason is like I said you're solving a problem for these people and these people want to hear from you. So every single time it doesn't matter what space you're in or what product you promoted. It has always worked for their target audience. Joe: Okay, so we've talked about how to capture more phone numbers on the mobile devices, how to reach them, what the conversion rate is, usually four times the amount of revenue in e-mail marketing, and the fact that it works for every category in your opinion. What about A-cost or return on ad spend or average cost per order, how does that compare to e-mail marketing or if you're familiar with the FDA space things of that nature, do you have a sense in terms of whether it cost less or more in terms of cost per order service text marketing? Arri: Yeah, that's a good question but I wanted to add on to the ways that we collect subscribers real quick. One of the things that we've been doing recently is actually like leveraging Facebook and Instagram ads; lead ads to get more phone numbers. So when we run these text campaigns we realize text is performing way better so why don't we supercharge our text list. So we started running Facebook ads to get people to opt into just text directly through Facebook and then they're able to get on your text list so you can put them through nurturing flows. This was one of the performance methods that we've been using. Going back to your question which I completely forgot. Joe: No, I love where you just went. I wrote my question down so I can look down and ask it again. But you're talking about what would be in e-mail flow that Mike Jackness has always talked about with Klaviyo. You're doing the same thing with text message marketing. Arri: Yeah. Joe: What did you call it; what was that flow you called it just now? In terms of like okay everybody, listening can remember but you and I can't; skip it. It's the flow of nurturing, right? Arri: Yeah. Joe: How you're going to nurture that customer along and help them, help them, help them, and then give them something that they could take action on. I was asking about average cost per order or return on ad spend; what are you seeing there? Arri: Yeah the average return that we see for the plan that we work with is a 25, or the minimum return is 25X and usually for brands that we work with… Joe: Cut it down, 25X? Arri: Yeah. Joe: So I spend $10 and I produce $250; is that right? Arri: Yeah. Joe: So I did that really good math. I spend a dollar and I get 25 back. That's easier math for you and me. Really 25 times? Arri: Yeah. Joe: I'm seeing on e-commerce businesses between when they're doing e-mail all sorts of PPC, Facebook, Google AdWords, whatever it might be but all of it combined with Google as well where the average cost as a percentage of total revenue is somewhere between 9 and 15%. You're talking an incredibly low number here. Arri: Yeah. Joe: It sounds too good to be true. I don't mean to talk over you but people I just want to like hammer home on it really 25 times? Arri: Actually I'm being super conservative here. Joe: Really? Arri: Yeah. So the reason why is that the way we do text messaging we're already like we're capturing for the most part people who are already interested in your brand. So people who are on your web site. So you have good website traffic. That's the reason why text works a lot because we're getting people who are interested and then we're able to reach them directly on their smartphones and then you create really custom automated flows and really great broadcast. So that's how we're able to get really high returns. Like I don't think we have like any brand that's getting lower than like a 50X, to be honest. But we like to say we guarantee a minimum of 15X return. But yeah we get really high returns. And I don't even want to go with the ones that are getting like 200X or whatever because that will scare people. Joe: There's going to be a limit to what they can spend if they're getting even a 50X or 15X I guess the limit would be the total number of phone numbers that you have and how often you send these messages, right? I mean with e-mail I know that with Klaviyo; Mike's campaign on ColorIt, he would send e-mails all the time. They were helpful educational e-mails and really in that regard and then there would be a promotion where they could get a discount or a sample pack or something like that. How often are you sending text messages on one of these nurturing campaigns or flows as you call them? Arri: Yeah so we break down the messaging by automated flows and one time messages which is basically broadcasting. So with the automated flows, we like to send; when somebody subscribes we can send them a message immediately with like whatever the offer was and then we can send reminders. We send like two reminders within 24 hours for them to take action. And then on top of that, we have the [inaudible[00:28:04.1] and if they do not take any action or purchase then we'd get them into the Welcome Series which we can send that every three or four days and we'd like to stop after like five messages. We always give people like the reply stop to unsubscribe because if somebody signs and just said then we rather have them unsubscribe and save us some text money. And there was always that option. And then if they get into abandoned carts we have two series abandoned cart recovery messages that we send out until they make the purchase and then we go in to post-purchase. So with post-purchase, you can do a lot of things with like product-specific flows. If somebody bought this product you can say hey; you can upsell them other sort of products are related. So we can get really nitty-gritty with that. And then we have the one-time messages. With broadcasting, we recommend sending at least twice a week. I've seen people who have like text lists and then never want to message them because I think they're scared that hey they're going to receive too many messages. I really talked to a brand yesterday and they're like yeah we sent only one text a month and I'm like yeah you guys need to be sending at least like 6 to 10 maybe 2 every week because you're just going to like double how much revenue you'll generate. Joe: Right. And if the customer doesn't want to hear from you they're going to opt out; as simple as that. Arri: Yeah. Joe: That was the approach Mike took with Klaviyo and ColorIt as well; send as many as you can, be as helpful as you can, and let them know if they don't want to get any messages they can opt-out. It sounds like your approach is the same with your clients. Arri: Yeah. And I think that content really matters too. It's not about just like blasting sales. I think people think that because we are having all these crazy resources that we're always doing sales but we rarely do sales. It's always like short and sweet content with like a GIF that kind of illustrate what we're trying to say that engages the customer more into taking action and in between, we add like sort of small discounts. So it's not always about sending like hey we're doing like a storewide 20% off or whatever. You can actually send like a content. Joe: Okay. Talk to me about the cost to get started with something like this. I mean with Conversmart your business; that's Conversmart, there's no T in there folks but we'll put it in the show notes as well. How does someone get started dollar-wise? What's a test look like in terms of giving it a shot and seeing if it works and how many times do they have to really test it? What do you recommend to new clients that are coming in? Arri: Yeah. So SMS at the very bottom of the funnel so I recommend having a good amount of traffic; at least 20 to 30,000 web site visitors in order for it to work if you just want to do bottom of the funnel but if you want to use the Facebook ads to start growing your list which is a really good strategy because with the Facebook ads you get people to opt in to your text list and those people who were opting in are also buying which is paying for the cost for you to acquire those leads. So you're basically getting free leads. Joe: That's something beautiful. Arri: And then we'll tell you about because that's probably we've been doing hey let's get more free leads. So that strategy works really well. So we get people to opt-in through the web site and then we also get people to send some automated messages. Those are some of the great ways to start. So first you got to get people to opt-in. You have to have the traffic. You get people to opt-in by having a pop-up or on your mobile device or you do the Facebook ads and once they opt-in then you have to send messages. I think Thank You messages is the most important part lke it goes back to e-mail, right? I've met some people and it's always the same situation; it's like hey I have this e-mail list but I'm not even e-mailing them. It's the same with texts. You have to text the people who have subscribed. And it's always great to text at least once a week so when are you doing your promotion so these people are not completely forgetting about your brand or who you are. So it's a great way to stay top of mind while generating revenue. Joe: But budget-wise though for people going should I try this, is something I can give it a go, do they have to have a thousand to 5,000 or 10,000 dollars set aside to test this with? What do you recommend? Arri: You can get started fairly easy. In fact with our partner Postscript which is the platform that we use; if you own a Shopify, it's the one that we work for Shopify but if you're on another platform we can definitely chat about that. But it's super simple to get started in fact I can give you guys like free 1,000 credit if you want to try out text messaging. You can give them the link or something like that. Joe: Yeah, great. We'll put that in the show notes. Arri: Yeah you get charged by how many messages you send if you want to do it yourself. There is no platform fee or anything like that. So once you get those credits you can start sending and see kind of like what the results look like. And like I said it's only going to cost you if you send the text messages and be able to tell if it's working or not. So it's very simple to start. Joe: Okay. So it's all about the number of texts that you send. First, you've got to capture as many phone numbers as possible and get them to opt-in. Like we've got a fairly large list after a decade of email addresses and phone numbers, we can't just use those phone numbers we've got to get them to opt-in first, correct? We're going to follow the law. Actually, they opt-in to receive information from us anyway via email would that apply for their phone numbers as well? Arri: No they have to have opted in for the text. Joe: I got it. Arri: So if it said like only for them we're going to finish up 5 today check here to opt-in for the e-mails it has to also say text otherwise they're not opting in for the texts. Joe: That's good to know. Okay, any last thoughts for people with e-commerce businesses in terms of text or actually I'm saying e-commerce but I would imagine this would work for SaaS and content businesses as well, right? Arri: Yes. In fact like even with like a B2B company. I got a text. I signed him up for like a demo and he's texting me and we actually had a conversation. So this is a great way to like follow up with people if you're like not even in the e-commerce space. You can text them… Joe: It worked for you and worked for Quiet Light too so I don't know why I'm thinking only e-com. Arri: Last words; if you're an e-commerce business I definitely recommend looking at text because it's going to be the number one way people are going to be communicating. As emails are being sent even more I think there's going to be like over 319 billion e-mails sent in the next year or whatever so text is a great channel for you to reach those customers and you don't have to go all in. You can do like small tests and kind of see what the results look like. So yeah I highly recommend checking it out and doing some small tests to kind of see what the results look like for you. Joe: Okay and it looks like they can reach out to you and get a free consultation as well. How do they find you? What's the URL that they'd reach you at or things of that nature? Arri: Yeah. So Conversmart.com, that's where you'll be able to find us, you'll kind of see like kind of an overview of what we do with text messaging. We take a really different approach to text messaging that people haven't seen before especially with the content that we send and the creative that goes along with that content. That's really what helps brands double that conversion rate when they send all these text messages. And also as an agency, we take over the entire channel for you. So basically you can sign up and basically, you just see like money come in from text messaging after a couple of weeks and then we just give you all the reporting. You don't have to do anything besides approving the content and everything. So we'll basically like take over the entire channel for you. And that's pretty much like what we do for every brand that we work with. We don't want them to like worry about getting 11% open rates and 1% click-through rate over email. We can supplement that by sending people text messages that they actually like. And people are going to convert from those text messages. Joe: Excellent. Well, I know that what you're doing is working because you're hanging out with the likes of Ramone and that is rad. So you're doing something right. There's no question about it. Anybody out there that's interested in reaching out to Arri just go to Conversmart.com. Arri I will see you at the next Blue Ribbon Mastermind event and when Ramone gets back from filming today which he's doing for Quiet Light thank you, Ramone, give him a high five. Tell him I said hello. Arri: Yeah. Joe: Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. Arri: Alright. Thanks for having me. Links and Resources: Conversmart Free 1000 Postscript credits

Tips on writing authentic copy with Joe Pomeroy My whole focus is on writing authentic copy. If you're hiring a copywriter and 90% of their time is not spent in research, then they're not going to get your voice. It's combining those classic [copywritng] traditions with authenticity and being able to write those headlines and do those bullet points and have those attention-getting boxes. Oftentimes, business owners don't necessarily see themselves as an expert, but the reality is when you built a business and you're making money at it and you're helping lots of people, that you're an expert to somebody. In terms of copywriting, where is the low hanging fruit?... The easiest place is landing pages or opt-in pages. It's a process. If all you have is this phenomenal landing page and you get people to sign up and then there's zero follow up to it, you're going to lose those people. If you want to be a champion, focus on what you do best and get the right people around you. Hire the right people to come in, write copy, get that outside perspective, and get you on the medal stand as the champion. The best way to figure out whether or not something is perfect is through A/B testing, which I always recommend. Get clear on what you want and get clear on why you want it. Clarity dissolves fear. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ WRITING AUTHENTIC COPY [just click to tweet] WRITING AUTHENTIC COPY Focus on what you do best and get the right people around you. Hire the right people to come in, write copy, get that outside perspective, and get you on the medal stand as the champion. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Doug: Welcome back to another episode of Real Marketing Real Fast. Today in the studio joining me, Joe Pomeroy. He has a degree in marketing and a master's in business administration with an emphasis on strategic development. While excelling in academics, Joe also worked as an instrumental leader in the rapid rise of a startup company now doing in excess of eight figures annually. He centered in all things communication, from acquisition to retention to satisfaction. Joe uses his superpower of empathy to quickly connect authentically with their clients. That same superpower that he used to understand those clients, he uses to understand your target audience, to create trust and connect with them to be your latest raving fans. After all, what your client really wants is for you to take away their pain. When they can trust you to do that, they will actively seek you. Doug: Today we're going to connect with Joe and we're going to talk about all things to get more leads, more sales, and more fans as it relates to copy for your landing pages and email sequences. Welcome, Joe Pomeroy, to the Real Marketing Real Fast podcast. Hey, Joe, super excited to have you on the Real Marketing Real Fast podcast today. Welcome to the show. Joe: Thanks, Doug. I'm excited to be here. Doug: Super excited to talk to you about things, all things copy, all things copywriting. I sent out ... My newsletter went out today to my subscribers and I said, "Hey, we're going to be talking about copywriting today on this episode of the podcast." Just before we hooked up on the show, I got an email in from a Weber, and the numbers are in. It's 293 billion. That's the total estimated number of business and consumer emails that will be sent in 2019 per day. With that competition, I'm hoping that you're going be able to shed some light for our listeners on how they can compete. They can get their emails opened, clicked on, and they can sell more stuff. Do you want to fill us in and give us a little bit of background on the type of copy and the type of work that you're doing right now? Joe: Yeah, absolutely. You know what's crazy about that stat, is that just emails. That's only the competition you have with your sending emails. That doesn't take into account anything else that can be dist...

Going back six years, the concept of owning an e-commerce business where you could set up a site, sell a physical product, and never have to hold stock was extremely appealing. That concept has died down in recent past. Today we have someone on the podcast who is here to report that drop shipping is not dead. It is sustainable if it's done right. We're going to hear how our guest is perpetuating that sustainability with his business. Anton Kraly is the founder and CEO of DropShip Lifestyle & eCommerce Lifestyle. His business is focused on empowering people through eCommerce and effective marketing. From a book that he absorbed in one week, Anton got his website up and his business going. He learned all about AdWords and how to make it so his site got those clicks. Anton takes us on his twenty-year journey from delivering a physical product, then moving onto product listing and inventory on a larger scale, to eventually going back to the true drop ship model. A successful drop shipper's job is to build a store with a desirable product, make it look good, have excellent customer service, and then sell, sell, sell. Episode Highlights: Benefits of drop shipping versus building your own brand. The disadvantages of drop shipping – if any! Anton's tips on where to find products. The average order value Anton recommends. How to convince the manufacturer to take you on as a seller. The best platforms to use for sales and website examples to review. How to advertise and where to find clients. Marketing channels to use other than Google. The importance of self-management/DIY when building. We discuss the Amazon factor and its implications for the drop ship model. How to use drop shipping as a stepping stone to building a brand. Transcription: Mark: About five or six years ago Joe we had an e-commerce business … man maybe even more than that, maybe seven years ago or right around the time you started at Quiet Light Brokerage. I remember like the hierarchy for e-commerce businesses right at the top was having a drop ship business. Because people love the idea that you could set up an e-commerce physical products business but never actually have to touch the product like oh this is beautiful. Today they've kind of fallen out of favor. We don't see drop ship business as often and I think it's because people think that they're just kind of easy to spin up and then they get wiped out. But you had somebody on who is in the drop ship world and loves it and is doing a great job. Joe: Yeah. Anton Kraly ‘s been doing it for about 20 years. He actually started in New York. He had a bakery route where he had a truck literally delivering bakery products to different retail outlets and set up a website and started dropping shipping bakery products all around New York online back 20 years ago. Fast forward to today he really talks about the differentiation between owning a physical products e-commerce business and large amounts of working capital rolling like crazy and taking all the profits putting it right back into it and [inaudible 00:01:56.5] that story versus a drop ship model. A drop ship model; he really hones in on the fact that it is mostly pure profit. You're focused on advertising dollars; that's important. We talked about the average ticket size and why it's important to be larger rather than smaller and US manufacturers and how to find them. Like you said five, six years ago it was all the rage. I think it's a great model, to be honest, we think it's fantastic. It takes less working capital to get started if you do your research and really focus in on some of the things that he's talking about. I think it's a great opportunity for somebody to start their own business versus buy. I know you had Amanda on the podcast about that. I think it's a great opportunity to go that route if there's not a ton of money for startup capital and you really don't want to do imported from China which can be complicated. Mark: Yeah. Look at one thing and think about these ideas of fading niches and fading business styles is that if you find a business today that is in one of these fated business setups like drop shipping; if it's doing well today that's most likely a highly sustainable business. We look at these things and we say oh well drop shipping didn't work because it's just not sustainable for the long term. If somebody has been doing it and is doing it now today then there's something sustainable about it. I would agree that the old model of just taking a product feed and throwing it up there, yeah there might be some problems with that. But drop shipping is still viable if it's done right. So I'm interested to see what he's doing specifically for that sustainability and protecting against that competition and hearing how this will all work. And this is fascinating. Again this is kind of a blast from the past but how it works today. So let's get into it and see what he has to say. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Anton Kraly with me on the line. Welcome Anton, how are you? Anton: I'm doing very well Joe. Thanks for having me. Joe: It's great to have you here man. You know the process; we've talked about it just before the recording started here. Why don't you give the folks a little bit of background on yourself and what you do with ‎Drop Ship Lifestyle? Anton: Sure. So yeah my name is Anton Kraly. I built my first e-commerce store way back in 2007. I started off then selling cookies online and basically just got into the business after reading I think a book that got most of the entrepreneurs [inaudible 00:04:07.8] started which was the 4-Hour Workweek. I mean it introduced me to back then Yahoo Stores and AdWords. So I spent a week figuring it out and it worked. I since then kind of been working my way up selling more and more expensive products and transitioning from what used to be an importing model to the drop shipping model. Joe: One week? You took the book 4-Hour Workweek and in one week you got a listing up and running and a business off there? Anton: Yes but before that, I thought that e-commerce and building websites was like this big thing that took a team and $100,000 plus and all these … you know just technical people. And that book what all it gave me was you can go to YahooStores.com and spend $29. And the website was ugly. It was very ugly but I had a delivery route for a bakery in Brooklyn, New York. So I had this idea that I could build a website. I had access to these bakery products. I figured out Ad Words and just said hey we'll use keywords like New York Bakery, New York Cookies, and said I think my little descriptions were moved out of New York and missed New York Bakeries? Click here. And yeah I started getting sales like almost right away on that. Joe: That's amazing. I love it. I love the story and I love the action in terms of just doing it and getting things done. It didn't have to be perfect. If you waited for it to be perfect you would still be working on it for sure. I think I built my first site for $50 so congratulations you got me beat. So … but you were actually physically owning the products in terms of the baking goods and at one point you worked in to just drop ship. Can you touch on that a little bit? Anton: It's funny actually I was I guess technically drop shipping then but what I had at that time … I was 21 years old right out of school and I bought a delivery route for a bakery in Brooklyn. Joe: Ah okay. Anton: What I had basically was the rights to pick up boxes of cookies and sell them to a section of Long Island where I was living. And once I started this business at first I was just shipping them myself like literally having USPS pickup branch boxes and then I just said to the bakery like hey can you guys just ship these things for me and they said yes. So that was drop shipping. I didn't know what it was but after I was doing that … not for long, probably a few months I just was thinking like okay I'm selling $20 boxes, $30 boxes making like $10 per sale if that net so why can't I sell something that costs $200 or 500 or a thousand. So my initial plan back then or is my plan of action and what I did was go on e-Bay, look at completed listings and just looking for things that sold consistently. I buy at now prices, basically identified some items, I still don't know what drop shipping was so I found a website Alibaba.com and started importing. So I did that probably for two or three years import only. Bringing in dozens of containers from China to Long Beach in California and all my e-commerce stores back then were on that model. As I did that again after a few years of traction and doing really well growing like doubling over year over year I actually started to have companies reach out to my stores. And they would say hey we saw your website, we see you sell these things, we make these things do you want to sell ours? And they basically introduced me to drop shipping. Because they explained you don't need to buy this, you don't need to put it in your fulfillment center. You can just list these products, you sell them, and we'll ship them for you. Joe: Let's define that then. For people that don't have the experience set that you and I have go ahead and define drop shipping and how it's different from owning your own brand and physically owning the products and shipping them yourself. Anton: Got it. Drop shipping really is a high level term so if you Googled it you could find probably 10 different business models that technically would be drop shipping. And the way that we do it is basically we consider ourselves Internet retailers. So the way I like to describe it is if you went to a shopping mall and let's say you went to Dick's Sporting Goods right? They're a retailer. You go there and you buy Nike shorts and maybe Callaway golf clubs and whatever brands make kayaks and they sell other people's products. So that's how we do drop shipping. So again instead of building a site and let's say … you know I have a sofa behind me, so instead of making sofas or private labeling sofas we would just go out there and find the top 50 or 100 whatever it is sofa company is for us in the US because that's where we do business. We would reach out. We would say hey you know we see your products and we own this site and would like to sell them. And the arrangement on the drop ship model is they give us their full product catalog. They give us all their descriptions, their SKUs, their images, they just give us all the content and then us as retailers it's our job to make them look good on our websites. Basically, make sure we're taking care of customers and then, of course, our job is to drive visitors and then turn those visitors into customers on our online retail stores. Again the difference is I wouldn't ask those 50 sofa companies can I buy ten of all your best selling products and ship them to my warehouse. I would just get the sales on my website after the sale is made the order gets forwarded to whatever brand it is. The brand ships it direct to the consumer. So again your job as a … and the way that we do it your job as a drop shipper or internet retailer is to build a good store that has great product descriptions that actually has existing customer service and that gets really good at finding buyers bring them to your website. Joe: Yeah. So you touched on some things that I think are advantages of drop ship over owning your own brand but I want you to go ahead and give me two or three there and then we'll talk about them for those listening in the audience. Anton: Yeah; definitely, so back again let's … maybe 2008, 2009 when I was only importing. Basically, I was limited in terms of growth, in terms of revenue because every time I place an order with China I had to put down at least 30%. Before the container got to California I had to pay the balance. Joe: A container … I mean we're talking about a tractor trailer load size— Anton: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:09:32.2] Joe: —a lot of money there. Anton: Yeah. That's right a lot of cash. And basically, that's what happened. Our growth back then was limited based on how much cash I had. Again I had … only I had what was coming in so it was a bankroll sitting there that I could draw from. So basically yeah that was an issue. And then also if I wanted to add new products, back then I probably had between 10 and 20 different SKUs. So I couldn't just say I want to sell … I want to double the amount of products we offer and sell those. I just didn't have that option because again it was cash prohibited. Joe: Number one might be … I mean if someone is starting out on their own and they don't have a whole lot of working capital they may seriously consider drop shipping versus finding, building, designing, private labeling their own brand and then ordering some from an overseas country. Anton: Definitely. Joe: So working capital. If somebody is strapped and doesn't have tens of thousands of dollars to start off with. Anton: Yes. Joe: Okay. I got you. What kind of working capital do you think the … an average drop shipper that's someone that you train needs? What's the ideal situation? Anton: So it depends if you want to outsource things. Again like when I first started I built all my own websites and I created all my own ads and I wrote all my own emails and I did it all myself. So if you want to be the type of person or if you are the type of person that does all the work it really doesn't cost that much as far as a budget. Maybe honestly like a thousand dollars, $2,000 in the high end is like that's okay, again, if you're willing to do the work. If you do want to outsource things like uploading products and having unique descriptions and having content created for your website, I wouldn't recommend outsourcing ads at first but if you wanted to do all that then maybe 10,000 bucks and you can get set up with a nice looking store that's pretty much ready to go. Joe: So drop shipping is not dead right? You know I just … before we started recording we've just had a very attractive drop shipping site go into contract in the in the mid million and a half range actually. Most people that are out there looking for a business think physical products and own their own brand so that they can in many cases they do it on Amazon or a Shopify store. What are the disadvantages that you've experienced by being a drop shipper versus owning your own brand … well owning your own brand, you still own the customers as a drop shipper. Anton: Yeah. Joe: But what are the disadvantages? Anton: So we've done it both ways and let's go to it. We can talk about this but if you are again we'll just keep using the sofa example. If I sold for 50 different sofa brands and I had a successful store I would know what the top 20% of products were. I would know what sells the best. And then again what I used to do … I don't do this anymore I'm planning actually my move to Charlotte is to get back into this but what we used to do is introduce our own brands then on our website. We basically just okay we have 50 brands now we have 51, one of them being ours where we could sell our versions of the top products and maximize profit there. So that's the biggest advantage if you have your own brands. The margins just simply are higher. You can make more money because you're not paying for someone else's brand equity basically. Joe: Okay, I got you. That makes a heck of a lot of sense. Anton: Yeah the other one is we usually … I mean you could speak about this but sale price. If you want to sell your store and you have your own brand that could be a bigger package. It could be more valuable to a buyer that wants that. But that would be another advantage. Joe: Maybe. Yeah, there are a lot of advantages and attractive features about drop ship. Number one, no working capital required. A lot of the people that own their own brands and launched their own business with a brand starting out they do it bootstrapped. Maybe they don't have … maybe they have got 5,000 instead of a thousand or two like you talked about for drop shipping business but every ounce of profit that they make if the business is growing like crazy and they're just trying to keep up with volume of orders and inventory so they don't run out what I see is for 24months they're taking all the profit and putting it right back into buying more inventory and there's hardly left … any left over for them; its discretionary earnings, its taxable income, because they're buying a lot of inventory. But they don't get to pull a hold off out of the business and I sense that with a drop shipping business and I've seen it there's a lot more pre-working cash flow because you're not actually buying that physical product and so you've taken the order and have the money hit your account right? Anton: Yeah and that's the beautiful thing. So like you mentioned with building your own brand and constantly having to reinvest if you're growing to purchase more product, typically with that the payday does come when you sell the business. That's when you get all that money out. As the business value grows but your cash flow doesn't … or your free cash flow. And with drop shipping yeah if you do this the right way and you're working with the right type of suppliers and of course you're not overspending on traffic you really do control your costs. So most of your costs are variable so having … even if you're in reinvesting like a little bit more into traffic and trying to raise your budget it is realistic to have a 20% net profit every month in cash that you can then again determine what you want to do with. If you want to invest it into a business or do you want to take it out? So our cash flow from day one is much much higher than when you're going to be trying to scale your inventory. Joe: Okay. So let's talk about I want to start the drop ship business, I'm convinced I want more cash flow. I'm not worried about a big sale down the road although they are very, very sellable businesses. How do I find the products? How do you find manufacturers that are willing to allow me to sell their products on their behalf? Anton: Yep. So as far as finding products there's so many things out there but basically what we look for for some general rules of thumb is expensive products. Our average sale price we want to be usually a thousand dollars or more. We do sell products for less than that but that's the average order value we're looking for. We also look for different product types where customers really don't care what brand they get it from. So an example I sometimes give is let's just say someone heard oh a thousand dollar products price. I want to sell televisions or high end gaming monitors. Well, I would say that's a bad idea because if someone wants to buy that they're going to buy a Samsung TV or an LG monitor and that's not a company you get approved to sell. But if you wanted to sell something like sofas or books shelves or any of these products types no one cares … no one says I want this brand name sofa and I have to have that. So things that … yeah, there's really not brand loyalty. That definitely helps and things where there is a lot of possible variation or colors. So another example I give is chandeliers. So someone buys a new home like we're trying to do now you want to replace the lighting fixtures. If I want a chandelier I can go to Home Depot and Lowes and see what they have. But if I see something on Pinterest or Instagram and I want this specific size and color and amount of bulbs like I'm not going to find that at a local store. So China might stack the cards in your favor by going for things where customers are usually drawn online, to begin with, to make those purchases. Joe: Okay so – Anton: [inaudible 00:16:14.8] to search for a new iPad but something generic. Joe: Right. So something generic with a high ticket item. How do you find those manufacturers? Anton: Yeah. So Google … I mean that's really what we do. And one of the tips I could tell people not to do is don't look for drop ship suppliers online. Because when you go that route what you're going to find is directories and middlemen that typically charge like a monthly fee for access to their products. They really are middlemen. What you want to do is always get approved directly with the brands that you're selling for. So you don't want to go through a distributor if at all possible. You definitely don't want to go through any one that calls themselves a drop ship supplier director or anything like that. Again going back to the sofa example, I would go on Google, I would type in whatever I want to sell; maybe three sitter fabric sofas. I would go through Google. I would open every website in a different tab that sells them. I would look for either a page called brands or manufacturers or suppliers. And I would go ahead and then open or make a document with every company name I found there. And basically, I would work off that list. So I would build my own list of not … again like I wouldn't call them a list of drop shippers, I'd call them a list of brands that manufactures sofas. And then I would reach out to them old school by picking up the phone and saying hey this is Anton from AntonSofas.com, I found your website and these products and thought they'd be a great fit and who can I speak to about getting approved for an account and take it from there so yeah. Joe: How do you convince them to allow you to be a drop shipper when you haven't built a website first or is the—? Anton: We built the website first. So yeah if I was getting into a new industry let's … again sofas, I build a website. I would upload maybe five or 10 stock images. Everything else would be finished though, the about us page, all of it. Then we have blog posts up there. The whole thing; the phone number would work, the live chat would work. And then when we spoke to them we would say basically we're launching this website on whatever it is you know March 1st and our plan is to work with X, Y, and Z companies. So mention some of their competitors that makes sofas that's probably well-known and respected. And we could say our plan is to launch with again these companies, we'd love to have you on board. We think that your products whatever it is X, Y, Z that we found on their website would do really well. If they ask tell them a little bit about our previous experience, how we're going to get traffic. Tell them about how customer service is everything with our business and kind of go through the things that we know that they're looking for and the things that … they're also the things that we know we have to do to make the store successful. Joe: Okay. So build a website on the product and then start the marketing and we'll get to that in a second. So in terms of building the website do you have examples on Drop Ship Lifestyle of what one looks like that would be an ideal one to build? Anton: We do. We have a bunch of different links. I could send you some to check them out but I think one of them that we have a lot now is in lightandchandeliers.com so if anybody wants to check that out. We also have HappyPawsDogStore.com. So those are websites that are built on Shopify using the Drop Ship Lifestyle theme that we had built and they just show again what the site would look like at that stage when you're ready to start contacting suppliers, get approved, and [inaudible 00:19:17.6]. Joe: So you answered one of my other question which is which platform do you prefer and it sounds like Shopify. Okay. Anton: For 99% percent of stores, yeah. Joe: All right so you've identified the niche that you want to go in to, you build the website, and then you find the manufacturers and develop the relationship and bring their catalogues into your website. How do you go ahead and find the customers and market the brands? Anton: Yep so our favorite way is still through Google Shopping by using Google product listing ads. Those are the ads if anybody goes on Google and types in a product name or you can just use the general niche name you'll see the little images of different products. It'll show the product's price. It will show the store name. So we advertise there and then also if you're … if you search that on Google and put shopping you'll see all the ads there. And it's just always been like back in the day I think when I first started it was called frugal.com and like that's always been our highest converting source of traffic. So we focus on not just having our products there but really optimizing our product feeds to make sure that we are getting a good ROI. Because the big … since again all of our expenses are variable our biggest expense is marketing. So we spend a lot of money on ads. And so I'm just making sure that we are putting it in the right places and monitoring it. Like we we're always reviewing our ad campaigns. That's what drives the business. Like you need a high converting website, you need great brands, but if you're not really active with … inside your Google ads account then it doesn't matter. So yeah that's what drives our sales. Joe: So that initial one to $2,000 that you thought was a big budget initially does that include the advertising budget when you launch? Anton: Most of that would be going in there. And this is another good thing I should have mentioned earlier but speaking about how these are cash flow businesses with the way that we do advertise to get the majority of the time it's either coming from a Google product listing at search or someone searching for a brand name or a product name or an SKU number or it's something that we optimize for on our website where they're searching again and they're finding us organically. But by the time people find us they're typically trying to figure out am I going …with where my going to buy from basically. They know they want product X, Y, Z and they're looking to figure out where they should buy it from. So we do a bunch of stuff on our websites to have them choose us. But also by the time they click one of our ads they're either going to buy or not buy typically in like three to five days. So it's not like we're spending whatever a hundred dollars today and hoping it comes back to us two months from now. Joe: Wow. Anton: Spending money now and if we're not [inaudible 00:21:34.0] positive within a few days then turn it off. Joe: Let me just summarize and differentiate the business model between owning your own physical brands folks and the drop ship store. Again I just want to wrap it up and summarize if you're not wrapping up a summarized. So building the shop … you're building the store, you're spending a total $2,000 budget all in and that includes advertising. With a physical products brand, you're doing that as well but you're ordering the product from let's say China, for instance, waiting for that product to come in, putting it up on Amazon, spending some money to get traffic either to Amazon from Facebook or some other source and doing sponsored ads in Amazon. So far we've spent, we've spent, we've spent, we've spent, and then you're going to get paid out every two weeks from Amazon. Your advertising budgets are going to take and blow your credit cards once a month. With Drop Ship Lifestyle or drop shipping, you're not spending any money on product. You're building the website and you're building … doing the marketing campaign. And it sounds like if somebody is going to take … you start getting orders right away after a few days, weeks of advertising again even your advertising budget is with your credit card and you're not getting … you don't have to pay that depending upon the time or the month when you launch for another 30 days. So you're getting the revenue from the sale before you have to buy the product and you're just sending the … do you send an invoice, an ACH wire, or do you—? Anton: No. Joe: Or some of your manufacturers take a credit card as well? Anton: Most of them are credit card. So whenever we can we go credit card and so yeah the points if anybody's into that is amazing. I haven't paid for travel in like 12 years so you'll want to use rewards cards. Joe: There was a time when I was spending … the highest I ever spent was 50,000 a month on Google Ad Words when I had my business and we furnished our house, we took vacations, everything for the points. Now let me just talk to buyers and sellers, particularly sellers out there when it comes to points. Something like this if you've got a drop ship business and you're doing it this way that Anton's talking about, if you are spending $100,000 a month on inventory and advertising, of course, you've got to pay for it in advance. Anton: Mm-hmm. Joe: So … but if that's 100,000 points if you use a point converter or a cash back credit card. That is what's called an owner benefit. Anton, I want you to pay attention to this and talk to all the folks that you train. Anton: Okay. Joe: That is an owner benefit that you should track because if and when you sell your business it needs to be added back to the add back schedule as an owner benefit and can boost the overall value of your business. I just launched one recently and he travels the world and does it all with … no, I'm sorry he buys all of his inventory with credit cards and that gives him an enormous amount of cash back. I think it was something let's call it $25,000 cash back over the course of the trailing 12 months. If your business is listed at a three time multiple everyone that adds $75,000 to the overall value of the business. For buyers, if you're looking at businesses and you're looking for some instant equity if a broker didn't list cash back points or anything like that and sometimes you've got like Anton said travel you can convert those. With our American Express there's we've got a certain number of points and we can convert that to cash. That's the amount we're talking about. But that could be instant equity in a business for a buyer if you're taking over drop ship model and your broker didn't do that or the broker that listed the business didn't do that you can. Okay, how much are you spending? What kind of points? You know using credit cards do the math and it's definitely instant equity. Okay, sorry long rant there. The biggest thing for me and so when I'm talking to buyers and mostly sellers and I'm going to say this for the folks that are listening the biggest mistake you can do … make is not pay attention to the details of your financials and documentation. A little thing like that, we all work so hard when we've got our own businesses to drive top line revenue and talk oh I'm doing this many millions in revenue. That doesn't matter as much as the bottom line number and when you pay attention to that that actually brings more value when you do decide to exit your business. Okay, Joe is done ranting. All right so other than Google Shopping what other marketing channels are there in terms of paths to growing the business itself? Anton: So the ones that we … I'd say use every time so it varies, so you find some industries where there are certain placements but whenever we're building a new store we will be obviously Google is our number one. Organic traffic is big. We used to invest a lot of money into it trying to rank major keywords. We don't do that anymore. What we do now is just focus on site and make sure that all of our product pages especially once we know which our top 20% of products are going to be, we make sure those are extremely unique and optimized because that's just free clicks and free sales. So organic is big for us. Bing, believe it or not, we advertise. It's probably 10% of our overall marketing budget. Joe: I'm not sure if I believe it or not. Okay, 10% all right. Anton: We're putting some money there. There are people, they're sales. Joe: Okay. Anton: We can't scale it. Every time we try to scale it it breaks. But add a small budget and it works. Facebook we are big on but only for remarketing and the reason being we do sell high ticket products. So to put an ad for a chandelier in front of someone that likes I don't know what interior design they're not going to buy it so … retargeting though we are big there. YouTube ads actually work really well for us as far as remarketing also. And then one of our other ones that budget depends on what industry are in and what's out there but advertising on other content sites that already exist. So you can call it influencer marketing but it could either be a business, website, a content site, it could be someone's personal content site. But either doing like paid promoted articles or taking out ads in the sidebar. Either way but trying to form relationships with people that already have the audience there and then paying them to either have them talk about us or to allow us to put a little banner on their website. Joe: I got you. And a lot of the stuff you just talked about, we've had guest experts on that do YouTube ads or might do influence or marketing things that of that nature. Are you generally finding the people that you work with managing all of this themselves early on how … somebody that doesn't have the expertise to do that what do you advise them to do? Anton: Typically if they're starting from scratch and they want to build a business and with this type of business I don't recommend hiring anybody from day one. I recommend like learning at least … look do it yourself and get it profitable and then okay look for someone that might want to run your content side of the business or look for an agency that can manage your Ad Words but I really … for most people when they're starting I say do it yourself. It's easy to throw money away and I made this mistake early on with my e-commerce businesses. We were profitable but when I look back I spent all this money in like fees into all these companies and I didn't know enough to know that I was grossly overpaying for a lot of things. So yeah lesson learned. Joe: That's the beauty of experience and age and wisdom right? You get to remember all your mistakes and what you might have done differently. Talk to me about Amazon. Anybody got drop ship businesses that are reselling on Amazon and if so how do you do that? Anton: I'm sure the answer is yes. I'll tell you we don't do any drop shipping on Amazon haven't even ad … I used to advertise there back when they allowed Amazon product ads to go to external sites. But that's been gone for a few years. Yeah, there's some people that I work with, some of them are students at Drop Ship Lifestyle that have their own drop ship stores that do what I've spoken about earlier where they'll introduce their own brands into the mix of their drop ship store. And typically when they do that they'll also have their products on Amazon because they know that people at least a percentage of them will also with Amazon and look there. With the type of brands that we work with typically when we are getting approved to sell for them and we're signing the agreements, one of them says that you're not going to sell on 3rd party platforms like companies like e-Bay. They don't want to sell us to sell there. Same thing with Amazon reason being is because if they're going to have their products there they usually do that internally. A lot of the times because the items are usually expensive and margin heavy they're not the type of items that people are private labeling and putting on there. So it's really at this point I'm sure this will change in the future but at this point, it hasn't been a huge factor because I think our price points are higher and again the items are usually like too big to be sending over to FBA and paying storage fees. The numbers don't work at this point with that model. Joe: Do you foresee any danger as a drop shipper that the Amazon business model is going to be a challenge for drop shippers because those manufacturers can go directly to them and guys like me anytime I want to buy something I go to Amazon first? Anton: Yeah I do. And I'll say at this point I'm not like freaking out like oh my God like I … were gone but I do think that five years from now 10 years from now, if Bezos gets what he wants then Amazon will have the entire market share of everything. So I … you know I've talked about this before but I think like we'll see. Like that's definitely where they want to go. I think they're pretty upfront about it so unless someone else steps in or unless the government breaks them up from getting too big then yeah we'll see what the market looks like. Again I don't think it's coming anytime soon but maybe call it 10 years we'll see what things look like then. But I'm in no way confident that they're going to just back down and say we have enough. They're not about to stop. Joe: Yeah well I think your approach to larger ticket items that higher value, not easy to ship, not easy to store at an Amazon warehouse kind of eliminates … they can't have everything right? I mean Jeff— Anton: They're not now they haven't. I mean they've taken over pretty much every market in that call like $100 sub priced product range and even electronics; like I buy some of my electronics from them. But as far as the types of products that we sell it's been that one area that they haven't really stepped into at least not in a big way. Like they sell basically … at this point, they sell cheap versions of the stuff that we sell. So you know if you search for a lot of the brands we sell they wouldn't sell for those brands but they'll sell like an inferior type product I would say at this point. Joe: I got you. I know that I say the first place I go is Amazon and I rarely buy anywhere else but them but when I find a certain brand I will go to that website and I would certainly buy from them. And I know my wife will certainly buy from the brand manufacturer or in many cases we built our house three years ago and she was that person looking at 30 different websites for the lighting fixtures and probably brought from one of you guys at one point. Anton: Probably, but for anybody that's like thinking about that and kind of like worried like well yeah that probably is going to happen. I think one of the biggest things you could do is look at sites now that are … I don't know I would say going above and beyond like don't do the bare minimum as far as content and as far as usability and as far as like everything; the whole experience. One website that I buy from all the time is the bnh.com. They sell you photo and video equipment. And they do have a huge store and warehouse in the middle of Manhattan but most of their orders now are online. And I think that all that stuff that I buy from them I could buy from Amazon and I buy it from Amazon all the time but I like the experience there better for that type of product. So if anyone wants inspiration check out B&H and see how they do things. They do a great job. Joe: Thanks. So I think this whole podcast has been inspirational for those that are looking to build an e-commerce business in this case specifically drop shipping. It's a great alternative to the risk and cash outlay of building your own brand. Any last thoughts in terms of what the benefits are anybody should think about in terms of drop shipping versus e-commerce? Anton: Yeah I think for anybody even if you're listening to this and you're like oh that sounds good but I already have half a million dollars in the bank and I just want to build a brand. I still think you could do both simultaneously and it's a great idea to start with a drop ship model in whatever industry you want to private label or manufacture in. Start drop shipping, build a website, build an audience, get sales, see what people buy, see what they like and don't like about products. You'll have all that market data you'll be making money and then you can go ahead and start your own brand with all the information and really increase your chances of just hitting on your own bit. Joe: That's great Anton. Your website is DropShipLifestyle.com you're helping folks understand the drop ship model. What's the best way for them … anyone to reach you that want to chat? Should they just go to the website is there a—? Anton: Website, DropShipLifestyle.com click contact, and everything is linked up off there. Joe: Fantastic. I appreciate your time today. I look forward to doing business with you in the future. Anton: Definitely. Thank you, Joe. Links and Resources: DropShip Lifestyle Contact DropShip Lifestyle  

Another one of the top 10 guests of 2018 is returning today to review the SBA process for both buyers and sellers. We'll discuss what's changed and things buyers and sellers need to look out for in 2019. Stephen Speer of ECommerce Lending, based in Florida, is a specialist in eCommerce acquisition deals. He offers a superior financing experience to buyers and sellers. Stephen urges sellers reach out to him to get their game plan ready and advises buyers to get pre-approved in order to get the ball rolling in the right playing field. Episode Highlights: What Stephen looks for in a business when prepping SBA on the seller side. Why co-mingling of multiple business can be problematic for a seller. His recommendations for cleaning up and consolidating financials when preparing to sell. What the the “debt service coverage ratio” (DSCR), also known as “debt coverage ratio” (DCR), is all about. Where the add backs come from and where Stephen's team looks for them. He advises companies to use an external bookkeeping outfit – for a great ROI! How Steve and his group think outside the box when it comes to SBA lending and refinancing in order to make the purchases happen. What he looks for in an SBA financing candidate. Just because you can write a check doesn't mean you don't have to be likeable. Situations or factors that can stop an SBA loan. The importance of reaching out to Stephen before starting to shop for the business that falls into your price range. Stephen reveals his lending sweet spots – the floor, the ceiling, and his averages. All the financing details – down payment, terms, and interest rate. Why sellers and buyers both need to go through the vetting process. Transcription: Mark: Joe last week we aired the episode with Shakil Prasla and we started out the episode with me basically having you fess up to the fact that I have the number one most downloaded and listened to episode. Joe: You're amazing Mark. Let's just say it right now you're incredible. Mark: But you're [inaudible 00:01:07.9] with Stephen Speer and at the risk of becoming a rethread podcast where all we do is bring back our top guests. We are having back one of our top guests this week again. Joe: Stephen Speer that's right. He's an SBA lender which is interesting in that the top two podcasts that we had had been about buying online businesses and we're brokers that sell online businesses. But hey … look you are amazing and you started this company 11 years ago and your focus was education and helping buyers understand the process and helping them as much as the sellers. So it's worked. And the fact that our top two podcasts are about buying online businesses has proven out that theory. We had Stephen back because last year there were a lot of changes in the SBA policies and guidelines. The dollar amounts came down a little bit, seller financing wasn't required on certain deals, and we recapped some of that and we reviewed the process both for if you're a seller what you need to do to get yourself in good shape to be SBA pre-qualified. And if you're a buyer out there looking to build that portfolio of businesses or buy your first one what you need to do in order to connect with someone like Stephen and get yourself in a position that you best be able to act quickly when that perfect business comes along. Mark: So yeah these rules do update on a yearly basis but fortunately this year it doesn't sound like there's a ton of new changes. With that said there's a lot of good information in this podcast because we get these questions over and over and over again about what does it take to qualify. And I think one thing that … I know we talked to Stephen the other day as a company. We had him and a couple of other SBA lenders come into the company and just— Joe: Yup. Bruce from [inaudible 00:02:47.2] bank, yup. Mark: Yup. Bruce from [inaudible 00:02:48.8] bank. You know I think it's important for people to understand that there is SBA guidelines. Yeah, that's one thing, but then outside of the SBA guidelines, there are some individual bank guidelines as well. And to understand that even though these rules and these guidelines that we're going to cover in this episode might be out there they're not hard and fast when it comes to finding an individual lender. Did you cover any of those guidelines from Stephen's group with the podcast? Joe: Yeah, we went over some specific things that he looks for and his firm looks for. He's with Bank One now … or I'm sorry First Home Bank but some of the topics that we touched on on the podcast and even when we talked to him separately and that you and I talked about is why is it important to pre-qualify your business for an SBA loan? Sellers may be thinking well it doesn't matter why should I do that. And the answer is because it casts a broader net and not a broader net of buyers. There are definitely some buyers out there that only want to use SBA funds because that's … they only have 10 or 15% to put down. And then there's another pool of buyers that could stroke a check for one, two, three million dollars but they're building that portfolio like Shakil and using SBA money so they're only putting 10 or 15% down each time. So it's really important from a seller's standpoint to understand the value of clean financials and getting prepared so you're pre-qualified for an SBA loan. And from a buyer's standpoint, it's a great way to go if you're comfortable with that option. Mark: Absolutely. All right let's get into the episode, let's find out what's changed in 2019 and then also recap some of the rules and some of the things that both sellers and buyers should know about SBA loans. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage, today I have one of our top 10 guests back for 2019 Mr. Stephen Speer. Welcome back Stephen how are you? Stephen: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me Joe I appreciate it. Joe: Awesome. Man, well listen I want to go through all of the SBA lending practices, what it takes to qualify for a business, what buyer's should be looking for, and I also want to get an update on you and your team. I think you made some changes in 2019 … I'm sorry '18 I want to cover those as well. But for those that have not listened to you in the podcast in the past can you give us a little summary, a little background on yourself? Stephen: So I have an e-commerce lending team at First Home Bank. The bank happens to be located in St. Petersburg, Florida. Our team are lending throughout the country. As a matter of fact very few of our loans are actually in Florida but I made a transition months ago with the privilege of being able to grow my e-commerce team and we provide a level of support as we go into the new year. So I'm pretty excited about that. Joe: Yeah, it's exciting and I know that we've done a number of deals together and you've done a lot of work with Quiet Light and some of the other website brokerage firms. How big is your team going to get to? Where are you at now and how big are you going to be compared to where you were before? Stephen: So my team comprises of four people. Myself, a gentleman named Bill [inaudible 00:05:55.9] who is kind of my right hand man along with my underwriter and closing team. So I'm pretty excited about that. I plan to add an additional person in Q1 and another person who I have identified for Q2. So I plan to have three people do what I do. In other words, myself and two more and then stick with my underwriter as well as the closing team. Joe: That's huge. I always worried about you getting hit by a bus. Now you can get hit by a bus and we'll be fine. Stephen: Well yeah, my wife would love to hear that so. Joe: We don't want her listening to the podcast [inaudible 00:06:32.5] buy a bus and start driving around looking for you. That's great man, that's great. One of the things that I want people listening to this to understand is that we've dealt with a lot of SBA lenders over the years and you're a … you're not a banker. You don't come across as a banker. You don't have certain boxes that you must absolutely check every time when you speak our language. And you hang out with e-commerce entrepreneurs which is great. Let's talk a little bit about what it takes to qualify for an SBA loan from the sell side of the business. What do you look for from a business? When I send you a listing and say “Hey Stephen will this qualify?” what things are you looking for? Stephen: Well, first I'd like to … I would say I'd request financials. So first what I look for is what type of business is it? Is it FBA driven, is it 3PL, or do they provide their own fulfillment? So I look at that. If it's a product based business I look at the number of SKU's, type of product. I really do dive into that because one thing I try to avoid is having … trying to finance a single type business that's [inaudible 00:07:45.1]. So that's one thing I look at. So once I get past that I really kind of dive in to the financials. When I mean financials, the holy grail of financials are the tax returns. So for example now that we've entered 2019 I look for tax returns for 2017, maybe 2016 [inaudible 00:08:05.5] year, solid tax return for 2017, and solid year ending financials for 2018, and as we continue down the path of Q1 obviously 2018 tax returns. So basically back to your question a wrap up of … in 2016 of the business, solid year of 2017, and a strong trailing 12 month or strong and the word strong – Joe: Lots of people listening that are on their business will say “Hey that's not a problem. I got tax returns. Everybody files tax returns.” and then they give you a tax return and it's co-mingled with four other businesses that they're selling and they're only selling one … I'm sorry four other businesses that they run and they're only selling one. That's a problem isn't it, the co-mingling of multiple businesses under one tax return? Stephen: That is a problem and unfortunately, it's a problem that seems not to go away despite your best effort and your team's best effort as well as my team's best effort. They just seem not to follow that advice so that is a challenge. Now I do … with that coming up so often I do have a set of things I'm able to put in place, for example, I direct this seller back to his or her accountant and be able to income streams and expenses done in a professional manner. It can't just be Quick Books and I've been able to still get financing for businesses that do have co-mingling within a tax return. Joe: Does it just take a little bit longer to get those worked out and closed? Stephen: It does take longer. Generally, it adds roughly two months to the entire process. Joe: Woah. Stephen: It does take time depending on the responsiveness of the accountant. Especially as we enter Q1 and then start working on returns and start getting buried because [inaudible 00:09:52.5] season. It does take a little bit of time but it's not something that's not doable. The biggest recommendation I have either if you're thinking about selling a portion of your business now is to get on that and have your accountant provide or put together what I call consolidated financials. And basically what we do is we take the tax return and compare it to the consolidated financial which show a delineation of the different businesses and we're able to perform. Joe: Okay so for the sellers out there listening to that and going well I don't have to have an SBA buyer I can just sell to a cash buyer. You're absolutely right, there's a ridiculous amount of money out there in the landscape for people buying online businesses. The reality is though that you want to cast this broad of a net as possible for potential buyers. And we see this over and over again somebody that's from another country that is selling a business if it's a multi-million dollar business but you're not US based, not filing US tax returns. It is more difficult to sell because the buyer pool is not as large. There are buyers out there that I know personally that have the ability to stroke a check for five million dollars but they're smart and they don't want to. They want to keep as much money as they have … as they can and buy multiple businesses and maybe use someone like Stephen and SBA lending and only put down 10 or 15%. So you do cast a broader net if you can do the consolidated financials. If you're just starting off in business your best approach is to have one LOC for that line of product that eventually you may sell. We had Syed Balkhi on the podcast as well and Syed has a number of different businesses and every time he says “okay I'm done with this one” we're able to list it and sell it very, very easily. And the last one I think we did cash … actually, I think we did two SBA loans and it was very easy because he files separate tax returns for each business. That's the ideal situation. How do you feel Stephen about someone selling a business and they're coming to you with Excel spreadsheets for their profit and losses versus Quick Books? You don't really care about that you're looking at the tax returns and a P&L anyway that's in excel format right? Stephen: Primarily if we're talking just a single business, single return, single P&L's yeah that is fine. So that's not a problem at all. Obviously, the more … accounting is all about substance over form, it's kind of an accounting term. That is true but it can't be hand written or something very unprofessional I mean because ultimately underwriters look at that. If that's just kind of run together and it doesn't make much sense it's not done by someone who knows how to do a P&L or a [inaudible 00:12:47.0] but as long as it looks presentable that's fine. Joe: Well, you and your team are betting on the future success of the business. So first you want to see that the business is run properly. And if somebody is not using Quick Books or Xero or some form of accounting software it's an indication that it's not being run in as professional a manner as possible right? So that … okay, and the buyers look at that that way as well. And I could tell you from a brokering standpoint when you're using Excel spreadsheets for your financials and co-mingling it's much more difficult to get maximum value for it because no matter what things are missed. I had a call this morning where there was several thousand dollars that was buried inside of a marketing budget that was actually a personal thing. We had to dig very, very deep to find it. And that times three adds nine, ten thousand dollars up to the value of the business. So ultimately your view is you want to make it a safe investment in financing this loan and make sure there's a success down the road for the future. Is there a … some sort of multiple barrier that is a ceiling for you? Is it … how do you … it's … I can guess you call it debt to income ratios right? Stephen: Debt service coverage. So let's say … okay, so debt service coverage is primarily what we look at. We really don't look at EBIDTA multiple. I mean we do and we don't. The valuation piece definitely we look at that but primarily we look at a debt service coverage. So for example, if the overall loan is the obligation, annual obligation for a loan is $100,000 let's say, the bottom line number on the tax returns needs to reflect at least $115,000. Giving us a debt service coverage of 1.15. Now a lot of sellers run their similar personal expenses through the tax returns. I'm able to add those back so you can't just take a tax return and say okay it's a bottom line of 115,000. You got to take whatever the bottom line number is and then their add backs. Standard add backs would be interest, [inaudible 00:15:02.7], depreciation, amortization, those are primarily some of the add backs. Some of the seller discretionary add backs might be … especially if it's an FBA setup type business where there's run expense, well, the new owner probably will just run it as a home based business, some people add that back. Some people tend to run their car expenses through even though it's a home based business. I'm able to add that back. And any one time expenses, the revamping of a website or other ancillary things or a one time they could add those back. And I take that number and determine the means and debt service coverage. Joe: Do you pull those from our spreadsheets because we have add backs and do you look at those or do you dig into the tax returns for the add backs? Wouldn't it be hard to find them in tax returns? Stephen: Yeah so both, I look at what you provide in terms of your spreadsheet but some of those I'm not able to add back like typically insurance would be really hard. It'd be hard fought to have an underwriter add back insurance expense for example. Joe: It shouldn't be added back. I agree. If it's an expense that's going to carry forward it shouldn't be an add back. Stephen: Yeah and really those … so of your add backs, the ones you reflect typically on your spreadsheet I'm able to add most of those back and those … I use that spreadsheet as a roadmap. But I do go into the tax returns and make sure that the numbers are aligned. And then I'm able to really dig into a tax return and see if there's any other type of add backs that I'm able to find. Joe: Okay, so from a seller's perspective they want to do the best they can not to co-mingle multiple businesses under one tax return. Obviously, have tax returns and a good financial so we can dig into the add backs and make sure that debt to income ratio is going to work, anything else that they should be considering? I think you said obviously you don't want a business that's balanced on just one SKU doing 90% of the revenue. Ultimately the bottom line is you want to make sure that the bank is going to get paid from the person buying the business and it's going to be a success right? Stephen: Yeah and another thing we look at if there's any sort of declining revenue or a blip where … for example I had a client last year that completely lift Chinese new year and didn't have inventory to sell. So there was a blip but I was able to explain that to an underwriter. And obviously with the new buyer who felt that this business [inaudible 00:17:38.3] little bit higher. He was able to avoid any blips in the coming [inaudible 00:17:42.9] for example. So it's also an explanation there. The key for sellers is even if you're not considering selling your business now get these things in place so when you go to sell you're going to get the most amount [inaudible 00:17:58.5] of your business. I had a lot of sellers come to me and it's kind of like they want to list now and their financials are a disaster now. So I recommended that buyers kind of get on the ball. Maybe it's a new year's resolution to fire your current accountant and hire a good one and to really get the financials in place and put certain financial things in place now or pay dividends in the future. Joe: Yeah, I'd refer people to certain e-commerce bookkeepers, two or three of them on a regular basis and have them go back … they'll go back in this case to 2019 and import all the bank statements and vendor invoices and everything and get things updated and accurate. And Quick Books actually helps the CPA do their job better. On a go forward basis, it's the best thing in my experience for a decent sized business to use somebody else. Let them focus on the bookkeeping and you focus on running the business and doing … driving revenue and maximizing profit. I think that's really going to work. Stephen: Oh absolutely. And the return on that investment Joe, I mean you had a podcast recently that— Joe: I'm touched. Stephen: The return on that investment is enormous. Joe: And it's incredible. I've seen it happen firsthand where we've had P&L's in Excel spreadsheets and the deal fell through three or four times and then the guy took the same information, hired a bookkeeper, they put it into Quick Books and we sold the business for 50,000 more of that … I think we had again three or four LOI's and it sold quickly which is fascinating; a fascinating study. Let's talk a little bit Stephen about you. About e-commerce lending and your group and how you think outside the box. Because I want to talk about this a little bit. Not all lenders are created equal. You and I have a transaction going on right now where you had to really think outside the box. And I'm going to summarize it and I want you to then just talk about what your thought process was and how you approached it. We have a buyer at Quiet Light Brokerage that again has the money to stroke a check but he is in a situation where he's building a portfolio of businesses and he's using the SBA lending process. Buyers can take up to what … five million dollars in money right? Stephen: Primarily. Joe: So somebody could buy five … I guess that would be one million dollars I'd then be putting in loans right? They're liable for up to five million. So he's buying multiple businesses— Stephen: One loan or 10 loans it doesn't matter. Joe: Okay perfect. So he has two under a letter of intent with Quiet Light Brokerage now and mine is in the process first. And he's got the wherewithal but I think he had some pretty sizable loans that threw off his overall debt to income ratio. How did you work that out? Stephen: So … and that definitely took a lot of out of the box thinking in the sense that he had … he has an Amazon loan and I can't divulge too much personal information but the monthly payment on the Amazon loan was staggering. It was five figures on a monthly basis. I looked at debt service coverage and throw in a very large five figure monthly payment through all the numbers ROI. Joe: And this is on a separate business that he owns. Stephen: Separate business that he owns. Joe: Right, okay. Stephen: Because it does affect what's called global debt service coverage. So on a separate business that he owns which happens to be an online business. Joe: Right. Stephen: He has very large payment and then he purchased a bunch of inventory and financed it through Amazon. So it threw all the numbers off. So you kind of have to dig deep and say okay how about we refinance at that, take that monkey off his … that large knot off his back and be able to incorporate, be able to reduce that monthly payment and still get the new purchase done. And that's what I'm in the process of doing. His new purchase, his loan on his new business acquisition was just approved and I'm going to process at refinancing his Amazon loan. Joe: Now the Amazon lending loan is very prevalent these days with Amazon based businesses. And you and I have done just for the record content site, SaaS business, all sorts of [inaudible 00:22:00.5] certainly not just Amazon. But in this situation, this particular individual had several hundred thousand dollars in loans and the money gets withdrawn out of their Amazon deposits. Do you recall what the interest rate was then? What his payments were? What the interest rate was and compare it to what you're going to be able to do for him? I just want to emphasize you thinking outside the box and how much money you're going to save this guy on a monthly basis. Because he's thrilled right now I got to tell you he's thrilled. Stephen: So his monthly knot with Amazon was 48,700 and something. Joe: Holy cow, okay. Stephen: It's going to be a couple of grand. Joe: No way 48,000 down to $2,000 … that's amazing. Thank you for thinking outside the box. You're helping him and you're helping a couple of the sellers of the businesses that were doing deals on now. That's fantastic. Stephen: Yeah, and you touched on something really important now. I do have a fair amount of buyers out there, actually, currently 347 buyers out there looking for businesses to buy. And quite a few of them can easily [inaudible 00:23:03.5] for a two three million dollar business but they're building a portfolio. So back to your comment about portfolios a lot of buyers out there right now are building portfolios. They want to buy two, three, four different businesses … online businesses for the course of the next two or three years. And they don't want to use up all their cash. And the fact remains is that when you're trying to scale a business cash is king. You need cash to scale a business. You need to buy additional inventory. You need to grow it. And if you're cash strapped it's really hard to grow an online business. So I'm helping several of those buyers accomplish that. So an SBA loan is not just for the person who needs a little bit lower barrier to entry. An SBA loan is also for the person that could easily pay cash but chooses not to, to stay in line with his or her business goals Joe: Absolutely. Well, let's talk about the buyers a little bit and what you look for in a buyer? You and I have never had a situation where we brought a buyer and you said yes and then it turned out they weren't qualified. But I had a situation a few years ago where I had a couple of Harvard MBA graduates. They literally just graduated a month before from Harvard. They got their Master's in business and they decided to partner on an investment in an online business. And they had some funds. One of the graduates had some funds from a parent. It went through the process. They're pre-approved from a different lender and then underwriting said these guys have absolutely no real world experience we're not betting … I think the deal was two million dollars. We're not betting two million dollars on these guys. Yeah, their pedigree is good, their education fantastic but no and the deal fell apart. What do you look for? Are you looking for real world experience? Is there a certain asset value that they need to have? How do you handle it when somebody comes to you? What do you look for? Stephen: So first I look at … I try to determine and I do interview my buyers. So once you refer them to me I do interview them as you know and one of the first things I really touch on is experience; so first determining if they have direct experience or indirect experience. And then as I mentioned in a previous podcast it's almost like going for a job interview, even if you don't have direct experience you need to make the person real comfortable with hiring you. The same goes with a loan is that even if you don't have direct experience what business … what skill sets do you have that's transferrable and also who's going to fill the void of having direct … let's say SEO experience or direct experience in the space? So those two things I look at. So if the person has direct experience, pretty much a no brainer. A person that doesn't have direct experience it's putting together the narrative like paying underwriter even though here she doesn't have direct experience but indirect experience in these categories. And additionally, they're going to have support via an employee or a contracted employee that that fill a void. Joe: I got you. Stephen: So I'm able to … I've never … honestly, I've never had a deal where an underwriter has said gosh that's great they went to Harvard but they have no direct experience. Joe: We had a situation … I'm going to name a name here but I'm only going to use their first name; a guy named Rocky. Rocky was I think he was in his 60's. He retired and ran a General Manager for some car dealership something … somewhere in the country. I loved the guy. I thought he was amazing. Just as a broker, as a lender you just … you connect with somebody like I want to help this guy. I want to find him the ideal business. Although let me say I told him he's crazy. He didn't need to buy a business. He was retired. What for? You have plenty of money I'm like you're crazy just go play golf or something. But he ended up buying something from us and he didn't have any direct online experience. He was a GM for dealerships that yeah they had websites but he didn't run them himself. I find there are a lot of people in the corporate world that are putting in 60 hours a week that look at the e-commerce entrepreneurs that are selling a business when they're working 20 hours a week and they're making more money and they want to live that life. They want to spend more time with their family, with their kids, travel. Are a lot of the folks that come to you these types of people, and is that in direct experience still okay? Stephen: Yeah so to answer your question yes a lot are. Be it Rocky or any other, they don't have direct experience. So the thing about Rocky is that … first, off he is incredibly likable, incredibly well spoken, and have a very strong resume. The guy was successful in his professional career. Joe: Yeah. Stephen: And then unlike somebody working at a low skill job the guy ran the car dealerships which he was 60 hours. Or he was probably working 90 hours a week now but with a transferable skill set. And also he filled that void of not having direct experience in running an online business but was able to fill that void by bringing somebody in. So we felt very comfortable with that and he ultimately was approved. And the last time I talked to him he's doing very well. Joe: Yeah, I think he bought a business from Amanda. I didn't have one for him at the time but Quiet Light, in general, had one. And I think Amanda loved working with him as much as you did. So the likability factor that Rocky had, when buyers come to you is that important? Do you have to like them to do business or? Stephen: Well not like … I think— Joe: Make a difference with human right? Does it make it a better—? Stephen: They are human. So an underwriter is human and if they have a good dialogue with the buyer, for example, Nathan was incredible as well. Joe: Yeah. Stephen: One of the reasons Nathan's loan sailed through is because he was very well spoken and had the incredible background to be successful. So yeah it does. Joe: Okay so we're going to just touch on that thing that everybody knows but they don't talk about and that is if somebody comes to me, if somebody comes to you and they want to buy a business we want to sell you a business. But if you are 10 times more difficult than the next person and they also want to buy a business, my client … my seller is going to say okay well I've got an offer from each which one do you like more Joe, talk about the plus and minuses. And we've got to do that. And in your case you just said you've got something like 354 buyers on your list. They're looking for a business, they're not buying it from you, they're buying it from the likes of Quiet Light Brokerage. Stephen: Right. Joe: But you still have to work with them on a regular basis and you still have to go through the process with them and be likable. Simple thing guys, everybody listening just be likable. Just because you've got the ability to stroke a check doesn't mean that you can push a guy like Stephen around. There's lots of people that are trying to buy a business, lots of people that are trying to sell businesses and being likable is so-so key because this is an online world. We're not sitting across the table from each other and it makes a huge difference being likeable in the process. Stephen: We've kind of touched on that. I was recently … I have a buyer who's been looking for a year and a half. Not to scare new buyers out there but sometimes it does take a while. But he's not likable. Joe: Okay. Stephen: And he was on a phone call … I was on it as well with the seller and he was beating up the seller on the phone in front of me like I wasn't on the call. I don't know but … and the seller chose another buyer. Joe: It's not hard. I'll talk from personal experience. When I sold my business I remember being on one of these buyer conference calls. I had three or four. Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light sold my business way back in 2010. And I had three or four calls with potential buyers before it went under contract and sold it. But I remember sitting … I was in the car on a call and I'm sitting in a parking lot and I've got this guy just belittling my business and talking about all the negative things and I'm just to all I can do to end the call. It's you know … to not end the call and to be polite and it was really hard. And even if he made me a full price offer … all cash, full price offer I have to take into account, sellers have to take into account how difficult that particular type of buyer is going to be in due diligence and in the training and transition period. There's a cording, a relationship it's … it ends at a certain period but you're going to be in a relationship with that person and you want to make that as pleasant and as enjoyable as possible. So being likable is critical without a doubt. Stephen: Absolutely. Joe: What are the top two or three qualities that you look for aside from good financials from the buyer? Like, do they have to have a certain debt to income ratio? Do they have to have certain assets in order to buy a business? Stephen: As I would say assets it's more present driven unlike buying a house. I think we definitely look at what's called post-closing liquidity. For example, when all the dust settles is it broke after closing or still has a fair amount of cushion. So we definitely look at that. Is there outside income? Does [inaudible 00:32:09.5] have a … what I call a day job to … for outside income? That's another thing we look at. So those are two very important variables. Credit score is important but it's not like buying a home where you get to really perfect your lending terms. It's pretty much either get a loan or you don't get a loan in the SBA world. A recent issue … if the person is being down with a ton of personal debt that's something that we look at. Generally, that's a character … it's the ones living beyond their means that's generally not liked. So those are just some of the variables. And also what I look at is does this person have the skill set to be able to scale a business or is the business going to go stagnant as it transitions over to him or her. So that's another thing we look at but [inaudible 00:33:00.5] just some of the variables. Joe: So when someone comes to you and says I want to buy a business part of what you do is you look at their financials. You look at all those variables and you say okay great you qualify to buy a business up to a certain amount. Is that the process? Do you say okay … do you give him a guide as in terms of you can buy something up to a million or two million [inaudible 00:33:19.8] like that? Stephen: Yes and a lot of the determining factor is based on their … is it direct, do they have direct experience or indirect experience? So that is going to move— Joe: Noted. Okay. Stephen: Secondly, post-closing liquidity that's really what I focus on. If the person is trying to buy a million dollar business he has to inject or put down a hundred grand and he has 110,000 in the bank that's not going to work. So we kind of have to move the needle down. Joe: And in that situation, they wouldn't … it's not that they don't qualify to buy a business but in that situation, they wouldn't qualify for a million dollar business maybe a half a million dollar business. Stephen: Right, it would move the target price down a little bit. Joe: Okay so just let me clarify that so that somebody has a $110,000 and they want to buy an SBA business and put 10% down, for those listening that's generally the number 10 to 15% down, 110,000 you're going to be left with 10 grand; not going to work. So you got to look at a half a million dollar business. Stephen: Or 800, 750 something like that. Joe: Yeah and then you look at their debt, what they have, what they need to live off of and that smaller business is not going to cash flow as high especially after the debt service from your loan. So you look at all of that and help them with what they're capable of buying first and foremost right? Stephen: Yeah, most of my buyers have what I call a day job so most of their … in most cases their day job covers their personal debt so that's rarely a real factor. Now I do have an individual recently who didn't have a day job and had tons of personal debts so that kind of blew her out of the water. But generally we do look at that. So again back to post-closing liquidity what I do is … so for all of you out there once Joe refers a client to me for pre-qualification I'm able to have an interview with that person on a scheduled call and ask some questions and also they provide me what's called a financial statement. And then I'm able to in most cases issue a pre-qualification and give them a target amount. In the case … in the example that was well over 800,000 for example. And then that person goes back to Joe and says okay I'm pre-qualified with Stephen, he told me to look at businesses around 800,000 let's go. Joe: And then they have a path which is the most important thing. Somebody that doesn't know what they're looking for, doesn't know what they're buying capabilities are is less qualified from our view. So one of the things we want you to do folks if you're out there as a buyer reach out to someone like Stephen and get pre-qualified so that it will help you narrow your focus. And then the next step is to look at as many listings as possible from the online world and figure out what you like and don't like about the business. When you find the right one if it's a great business you want to be in a position where you're already prequalified to act quickly. Because if it's a great business guess what other people are going to be looking at it and making offers as well, really important there. Stephen: Absolutely especially since there are a lot of buyers out there and if you snooze you're going to lose. So you need to kind of get your house in order before looking. Joe: Absolutely, I agree 1000%. So let's talk quickly about the qualifications of the buyer. Do they have to be a US citizen? Stephen: They could be either a green card holder or a US citizen living in the United States. Joe: That green card holder or US citizen living in the United States, the business itself does it have to be a US citizen or a green card holder filing US tax returns? Stephen: In most cases yes depending on the structure of the business. Joe: Okay, there's always a sort of gray area in the situation. Stephen: Yes, it depends on the structure, you kind of different components as in the past few company on the foreign entity— Joe: Right. Stephen: Things that does affect that answer. Joe: Right. Okay and then your business and the size of loans that you guys generally do, are we're looking at you're looking for a half a million and up two, three million, where is your sweet spot in terms of lending? Stephen: So generally my personal loan floor let's call it is half a million dollars. But obviously, if it's a client I've been working with and happens to just look at $800,000 businesses I would grant one for 400,000 on that person. My average loan amount is about a one and a half million dollar range. So … and you know looking at my 2018 numbers that's close to 60 million, 40 transactions, that's about that number. Joe: I got you. I think we have 38 of them that were directed at me I think right? No, I'm kidding. Stephen: 41. Joe: So you're loaning on the value of the business. And what about if it's an inventory based business are you loaning for the value of the inventory as well? And then working capital … does somebody, do you always loan … give working capital money so that they— Stephen: Always. So a very good topic here so obviously I'm going to finance the business itself. I'm also … if the purchase price of the business does not include inventory I finance the inventory, the on-hand inventory. And what I do is I work with you Joe in determining what that number is going to be at closing. So I finance that. I also include working capital. And that working capital I generally work it into a loan in a sense that I'm able to include it in your market … not directly your market, so okay of that 100,000 working capital 50 is going to be for additional inventory above and beyond what's being purchased with the business. And the other 50 is going to be marketing campaign or advertising campaign, it could be for hiring support staff. Joe: Okay and then lastly I want to talk about the term of the loans. We're talking five years, 10 years, 30 years, what are we looking at? Stephen: It's a 10 year loan and of all those components, by the way, it ends up being all in one loan. It's not where you have separate loans for each. So it's all incorporated into a 10 year SBA loan. Joe: Okay and 5, 6%interest rate somewhere in that range; five to seven? Stephen: Base prime plus two and three quarters, right now it's 8.25. Joe: Prime plus two and three quarters. Okay so for those that want to run their own numbers 10% down, 10 year note, prime plus two and three quarters, do the math on that. Stephen: Yeah. Joe: The seller note in 2017 and prior to that in most of the transactions that we did or did together you required some sort of seller note. And that changed in 2018 so for … got a business that's a million and a half and somebody wants to put down 15% are you requiring a seller note on a deal of that size or are you not anymore? Stephen: So up to 2017 a seller note was required by the SBA and not by the invidual lender. Joe: Okay. Stephen: So typically it was 10% down payment let's call it from the buyer, 15 from the seller or vice versa in terms of the seller note for a total of 25% down payment rejection. Joe: Okay. Stephen: In '18 the barrier to entry was lower. The overall requirement paying on a deal is the minimum 10%. In terms of what lenders require, some lenders require a seller note. We do not. Sometimes I incorporate a seller note to strengthen the loan especially if the buyer does not have direct online experience. So it gives kind of the underwriter warm fuzzies in the sense that the transition will most likely go smoother. The seller has a little bit of skin on the game. So there are situations where I do incorporate a seller note for approval purposes. Joe: So for buyers, sellers, even other brokers listening to this, this is you know you're hearing Stephen say I incorporate this or I incorporate that to help the underwriter feel better about the loan and make sure it goes through. What I do personally is when I have a deal that's pre-qualified by Stephen or someone like Stephen when I get an offer on the business A) I want to know if Stephen knows who they are and if they're working with him and how they look qualification wise. But B) I really like to send the deal structure to you Stephen and say this is the deal structure is this going to float with your underwriters? And I think that's critical to the ultimate success of the loan and the transaction process. Because the last thing that we want … it's happened once or twice and I don't recall if it was with you or not but … where you've … actually no it was with you where the underwriter looked at something and they had to tweak it just a little bit, had to increase the seller note by 5% or something like that. That's not what we want to do so now I run everything by you prior to having a letter of intent signed. I recommend everybody to do that if they're going to do an SBA loan through Stephen and e-commerce lending. Stephen: Absolutely, so that's a very good point as we continue down the path of e-commerce lending I am constantly tweaking the way I do things. And that's one thing I do is I bet really hard upfront so there aren't changes on the backend. Fortunately some of my buyers don't [inaudible 00:42:26.4] the businesses that they're looking at prior to signing a letter of intent. It's kind of an after they do that they come to me and say hey I just bought this business and here's the deal structure I want you [inaudible 00:42:38.3] well that's not going to work. Joe: Yup they don't do that with Quiet Light they have to [crosstalk 00:42:41.7] so the whole process we require that conference call. Because we … it's not, we don't want people to go under a letter of intent just to tie it up and then make a decision. We want them to make the decision, go under letter of intent, and close and go through that process. It just saves everybody a lot of time and hassle. Stephen: It really does. Joe: Okay, any last thoughts about … you want to share with the buyers or sellers that are listening to the podcast today? Stephen: Yeah in terms of sellers even if you're not selling a business now please reach out to me in general and have us put together a game plan for future sale. It's really, really important and again it will be dividends on the backend. And then for you buyers out there reach out to me. I'm more than happy to pre-qualify you for a business. You can reach me at stephen@ecommercelending.com and the first name is spelled ph or call me at 813-766-4524. Joe: Thanks. I will put that on the show notes as well. The last thing I want to say is just to reiterate what you're talking about there with the sellers and it's called choose your pain. Go through the pain of getting your financials in good shape now and having a great transaction and a sale or don't do it and you're choosing your pain later because it's going to be difficult. You're going to be … you're bank account is going to be in pain because you're not going to get as much value for your business. So make the choice and hopefully you'll choose that first one. It's not fun, it's not exciting but it's the right thing to do. Do some valuation exit planning, reach out to Stephen; reach out to anybody at Quiet Light. Go to inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com myself, Mark, anybody on the team is happy to help you even if you're not planning to sell your business for another two, three, four years. That's what we're here for. Stephen, you're awesome as always. Thanks so much for your time. I look forward to a great 2019 with you. Stephen: Absolutely, Joe. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it as well. Joe: All right man, talk to you soon.   Links and Resources: ECommerce Lending Email Stephen Call Stephen 1-813-766-4524  

Two years ago, Brett Curry from OMG Commerce would not have recommended advertising on YouTube. But today, he sees it the way we now look back at Facebook. When cost was cheap and the audiences were huge. YouTube gets a billion views a day, a billion! Brett's company knows all about advertising on paid channels…be it Amazon or the multitude of Google channels. Recently Brett has seen opportunities on YouTube that allow his clients to advertise on a fixed cost per acquisition basis (my favorite)! In this podcast shares what he finds works and what does not. No need to hire his firm…if you want to learn how to do it yourself, good news! He's created a course with Ezra Firestone. See the show notes. Episode Highlights: YouTube has always been a great content platform. How recent ad types make YouTube much easier to monetize. Youtube is used as a product search engine more than people realize. Viewers (and now shoppers) on YouTube are actively doing something, these new campaigns can target people based on that activity. Nothing sells like video if it's done right. Brett explains the pre-roll and true view options. The key tips on how ecommerce business owners can approach the daunting task of video ad producing that can be profitable. Some companies use agencies and others are hiring full time video people in house. Search behaviors are different on YouTube than on google. The integration of the platforms allows for hitting more people in order to make more money. Why Youtube is an invaluable re-marketing platform. If you give Youtube the right audiences to go after and you and you have a video that's powerful, over the time the machine will start hitting that CPA target. These platforms can successfully follow the journey of the buyer. The importance of getting all the campaigns working together and connected. Transcription: Mark: The world of search engines has changed significantly since about 10 years ago right? Google has been the king for a long time. I believe they started around 1997, 1998 and they've dominated and kind of set the tone for what we think a search engine is supposed to be. But in today's world, if you're in e-commerce or if you're in online business in any way you have to think about different avenues for search. For example, Amazon is the number one search engine for products at this point. But the number two search engine in the world is also owned by Google and that's YouTube. For a lot of us especially those who have been in the online world for a long time we sometimes just think narrowly about Google because that's what we've always done. But there's a lot of other opportunities where people are actually searching and have that direct intent and that's going to be YouTube as one of these things that we need to look at. And Joe I guess you talked to somebody who's really been focusing on YouTube as an advertising channel to be able to acquire customers for a business and he gave you some insights into how to use this channel more effectively. Joe: Yeah I spoke to Brett Curry from OMG Commerce. I saw him do a presentation specifically on monetizing through YouTube. I guess the best way to explain this is once upon a time on radio I had a campaign, a niche model called Per Inquiry. And we would pay the radio station per inquiry that converted to an actual customer. It's cost per acquisition that we call it now. YouTube has that opportunity now. So Brett really honed in on advertising physical product companies and doing it cost per acquisition … I'm stumbling like crazy here folks sorry, cost per acquisition on YouTube. It's not something we think of out of the gate when we think of YouTube because we're just watching the latest sports, concert, whatever it might be but people are starting to really use YouTube for searching for products and then clicking that link and converting. There are video opportunities where you only pay if someone watches the entire 30 seconds. That's something else we talked about but the one that excites me the most is the cost per acquisition model when he gets into that detail. Mark: Now I think video is something that all of us need to start opening our eyes to. I think there's just tons of opportunity when it comes to video. And you know fortunately, I think it's a little bit intimidating for most of us. And I say fortunately because if you can get over that intimidation if you can get over some of the worry about “man this is actually pretty expensive to produce” there is a world of opportunity out there if you can start getting it. So I'm excited to listen to this because I've really only just toyed a little bit with YouTube advertising. I haven't actually gotten in and tried to understand it fully so this would be a good primer. Joe: Yeah it's great. And don't fear the production costs folks because some of the best converting videos according to Brett are the ones that are actually customer produced. So consider that in terms of presenting to on YouTube. That's it, I'm done talking. Let's go see what Brett has to say. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley with Quiet Light Brokerage and today I have Brett Curry from OMG Commerce with me on the line. How are you Brett? Brett: I am doing fantastic Joe thanks for having me on the show. I'm excited to be here. Joe: You're also a podcaster too right? You've got a podcast what is the- Brett: Yeah. I love podcasting and usually I'm the one firing off the questions and listening. Honestly, I think listening is the harder job of the two here. So I'm looking for just to talking up a storm here talking about YouTube. Joe: Awesome. Well, I want to talk about a whole bunch of things because I think we met at the … for the folks that don't know we met at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind Conference in Denver. It's part of … I'm going to get that chain of events here wrong probably, it's part of the Smart Marketer Group, right? You guys … how long have you been part of that group with Ezra? Brett: Yeah. So I met Ezra Firestone at a Traffic and Conversion Summit event like six years ago. It was in San Francisco. It's a long time ago. I met Ezra there. He was just launching his Mastermind Group called Blue Ribbon and I thought to myself this is a dude that I need to know. And so we kind of striked up a conversation, I joined the mastermind group, the rest is history. So I think that was I think years ago believe it or not. Joe: And I've been going to mastermind Groups and we talk about them here on the podcast whether it's Rhodium Weekend or eCommerceFuel things of that nature. Blue Ribbon right up there for those listening if you can … if your business is big enough and you've got the revenue reach out. Find Ezra somehow through Smart Marketer probably right? Brett: Yes smartmarketer.com you got to consider it. I'm a huge eCommerceFuel fan as well. Andrew Youderian is a friend of mine. I think they do a killer job but yeah those two are right up there man. If you're serious about e-commerce and growing check out both of those and you're welcome Ezra and Andrew for the club. Joe: And for those listening if you're not in a Mastermind group or you're a buyer and you think how am I going to learn all this? It's through these mastermind groups. They didn't exist for me. I sold in 2010 as Ezra was saying I spoke to him on an earlier podcast. They really didn't exist when I started and now they're available for so many people to get so much more success I think than I had at the time. But listen I want to talk about OMG Commerce. I want to talk about you. You did a presentation at Blue Ribbon Mastermind on monetizing through YouTube and then kind of blew me away with the specifics of that and then all the other things that you do around that at your company. We want to talk about that. Can you give us … the people listening some background on yourself, on your company and how you started, what you do and then I want to jump into that. Brett: Yeah, absolutely. So right out of college in 2002 dating myself a little bit, I launched an agency; a small agency helping local businesses with TV, radio, and print; so kind of traditional old school media. I became a marketing junkie in college and I was introduced to Dan Kennedy and Jay Abraham and some of those kind of marketing gurus. I fell in love with the psychology of marketing and I kind of fancied myself as a copywriter for a little bit. And so I launched this agency, I started doing SEO in 2004 and somewhat just clicked. No pun intended it just fit my personality. I liked it and so I kind of became and SEO nerd. But still thinking about copy and the conversion rate and things like that. And then moved into AdWords and then really things took off in 2012 when I got hooked on Google AdWords and kind of … really we started our agency OMG, my business partner Chris Brewer and I we started the agency in 2010. But 2012 we kind of got hooked on Google Shopping. I wrote The Ultimate Guide to Google Shopping after months and months of testing and perfecting things. Shopify published that and then that kind of helped ignite the agency. And so since then, I've been speaking at events like Traffic and Conversion Summit and Ezra's events in social media marketing world and internet retail and things like that. And so really the agency is built on driving traffic to e-commerce stores and primarily using Google Ads; so Google Search, the text ads, Google Shopping, Display Network, and more recently YouTube. I've always been a fan of You Tube. Recent ad types make it much easier to monetize and much easier to track and create measurable results. So I'm doing a lot with YouTube. And then kind of the other side of the business is Amazon. Helping companies with their Amazon ads as well and so … but I spend most of my time in the Google Ads ecosystem. Joe: Well I tell this story and I'm sorry for the podcasters that have to … listeners that hear me repeat this but you know I spent a lot of money on Google Ads and I didn't have any experience. I didn't have any training. And I think there are too many people out there doing that. They were like me. The problem is that I've discovered is that you try someone who claims to be an expert and in fact, they're not. And they take your budget and they blow it up and you cost per acquisition goes up and your profit goes down and you know this is six months before you want to sell and all of a sudden the value of your business goes down as well. When you get up and presented … I knew first and foremost because you are at Blue Ribbon you are going to be top notch. But then I dug deeper. I sat by Chris, we talked for a while and you talked specifically about YouTube and I know that you can't do that alone and that you've got to package everything else in there. But some of the things that you talked about were … and I'm going to let you dig into it and tell us about it, some specific fix targeted cost per acquisition and only paying if somebody views the full 30 seconds and a whole bunch of things that I don't think is out there for the average person that's doing all of the marketing channels themselves to figure out. So tell us about that a little bit. Brett: Yeah absolutely and I think I'll just … I'll set the stage really quickly if that's cool just talking about YouTube in general. And you know I've been a fan of YouTube forever. It's always been a great content platform. Everybody is on YouTube. A billion monthly users, average session duration is like 40 minutes which is longer though on Facebook. And the cool thing about YouTube is it's full of a lot of learn, do, and buy moments. So if I'm on YouTube I'm actively doing something. I'm looking for how to fix my lawnmower, how to fix my washing machine although I try to avoid that at all costs and just pay people. But if I'm at pinch go to Google or go to YouTube to learn how to do things or researching products. That's something that a lot of people don't know is that YouTube is used as a product search engine pretty frequently where people are looking for unboxing videos and demo videos and things like that. And so … or just you know how to, my kids use YouTube all the time from everything to how to play the piano to … my 16 year old son now is looking at how to pick up chicks which will it make you proud or worried I'm not sure. But yeah you can learn anything on YouTube right? So when someone's on YouTube they're actively engaged in what they're doing and so the beauty of that is you can target people based on what they're doing on YouTube. But then like you alluded to now there's these ad formats that just really make it powerful. And so it's kind of combination now of better targeting than ever before so we can make sure we're reaching the right person better than we ever have before on YouTube. Everybody is there but how do we get to the ideal person for a particular e-commerce business. And then how do we have like a bidding and ad format that people want to click on and want to take action on and we're paying a rate that makes sense. And so that's kind of the backdrop. But yeah, so you talked about only paying if someone engages. That's called YouTube TrueView and so for those that don't know that's the pre roll or before ad. So if you go to YouTube to watch a clip from The Office or something and then there's an ad that pops up before that or the place before that you've got five seconds until that magical Skip Ad button pops up. And so the way that works is if a user skips the ad before the 30 second mark or before the end of the ad whichever comes first then the advertiser doesn't pay. So you know I could watch 28.9 seconds of an ad, click skip and the advertiser doesn't pay a penny for that. And so … or someone has to click through to the sites. If they're watching and they think ooh this is cool I'm going to click on the ad and go to the site and then the advertiser is charged for that as well but really an awesome concept. You know I used to in the previous agency days, I did quite a bit of TV and it was my favorite medium pre … before I got really deep in online marketing just because the power of video right? Nothing sells like video if it's done right and so … but if you're running a TV spot you pay for the spot regardless of if people walk out of the room or change the channel or whatever. With TrueView you're only paying if someone watches or engages so it's pretty powerful. Joe: Well let's talk about … for the people that are listening and that have a physical product and let's say they're just doing Google AdWords and they wanted to reach out to you how did that … how does it start, how … to me the idea of producing video if that's something you've never done is kind of daunting. How do you try to approach that? Brett: Yeah it really is and so this is what separates YouTube from say Google Shopping or Google Search ads which are just the text ads. You know a text ad that you can create in about three minutes. Or if you did research it takes a little bit longer than that but it's really easy. Google Shopping, the ads are pretty easy. There's just data feed involved, there's product feed involved which can be a little bit tricky. But a video, man that's tougher. You got to hire a video crew potentially. You got to hire an actor or you've got to be comfortable on camera, whatever. Ultimately though you really can create a video even using an iPhone if you wanted to but my advice on the video itself is be straightforward first. So I think … because we've all grown up seeing ads we have all kinds of ideas of what works and what doesn't work. So we know the funny Super Bowl commercials that we like and so we think we need to recreate something along those lines right? So I need to come up with something like the what's up guys from Budweiser. I'm a believer in direct response. So that's the type of ad we suggest that you run because most physical product companies if you're not huge a pure branding play is going to be tough so you want something that's direct response. And so I prefer a kind of straightforward approach. But a couple of things you can think about is one, you do need to hook someone immediately. So that Skip Ad button comes up in the first five seconds so hook them immediately. So what do you got to say, what question are you going to ask, are you going to be like running up to the camera, are you going to be doing something interesting to make someone say okay I was going to skip because I don't like ads but there's something about this that I need to watch. So hooking them in the first five seconds is key. I believe you got to lead with the strongest benefit. So what is the benefit that your product provides? Is it time savings or is it status or what is that major benefit and then dramatize that. Bring that to life even if it's just you talking and showing the product. So that's important. You also got to incorporate some social proof. So do you have a testimonial, do you have an endorsement, do you have something … are you endorsed by somebody that is trusted by your marketplace; some kind of social proof. And I think and kind of part of this you want to show don't tell you know. A talking head video can work but you want to show as much as you can. That is few of the things to consider to [inaudible 00:15:24.2] have to get in to but things like [inaudible 00:15:27.5] sort of moving the risk. What are the risks that someone has in their head before they buy? So if you're selling apparel or footwear or something what if it doesn't fit? Then what do I to overcoming some of those objections in the video is important. And then a really strong call to action, so like hey what do you … what do I want you as the viewer to do next? If you leave that … oh but this is just crazy to me, you know most people think “well it's a compelling ad people will naturally click”. Not necessarily, you kind of have to ask them to. Like go here, get this free shipping code, or check out this, or watch this further demo, or join our email list to get a discount; something, some kind of call to action and then push people to do that. And the nice thing is there are some new ad formats that really make those CTA's or calls to action pop. But that's just kind of few of the things that make for a good video. But I admit making a good video is much harder than other ad formats, it just is. Joe: Through your agency do you guys have a referral program … people that you say okay these guys have done a good job and you refer people to agencies or do you find that the entrepreneur is creative and ingenious and can create a video on their own and make it work? Brett: Well, yeah it's interesting. So we're seeing now a handful of our clients are hiring full time video people because of their product videos. So video can be useful on a lot of ways right and different types of videos. So maybe I just have a pure product demo video and I put that on my product detail pages and then I'm cranking out little short clips for my Facebook advertising and then I'm launching maybe YouTube content that I'll try to get to rank organically and then I'm running YouTube ads and I've got someone creating that. So surprisingly this is something that I don't think existed with the size of companies we're working with now. You know kind of two million to 10 million a year and really up to pretty 20 million whatsoever, a lot of our clients are in that range. Those companies now have full time video people. Joe: Okay. Brett: There are a few agencies I could name but we don't do any of the creative work ourselves but I can make recommendations. Joe: So let's go to that assumption then that the client has video … has access to it or produced their own, why YouTube though? Why … like when I go and I search … like I did a search today on how to export a profit and loss statement from Xero because a client said it can't be done and I'd seen it done. I get them all the time. Oh yeah? Well let me send a video. So I did that and I sent him, I skipped the Quiet Light Brokerage banner ad because we don't need to click on it. Brett: Yeah. Joe: But it never really occurred to me to buy through YouTube. So what … people know that when you do sponsored Ads inside of Amazon or you spend money on Google Ad Words or Facebook that there's going to be a certain volume you can get to in return on investment. Is it worth it to advertise on YouTube? I know it has a billion viewers but how many people are really thinking products? And is it worth it; a bang for the buck? Should people be paying attention to advertising on YouTube? Brett: Yeah, the quick answer is this; absolutely. And this is one of those answers that even just probably two years ago my answer would have been a little bit different. It kind of would have been a maybe. Like I said YouTube has always been a powerful platform. If you're a good content creator and you created good content and got organic traffic and then YouTube has always been a good source for running a business. But from an ad platform, I believe it's just become viable for a lot of businesses. I would say most e-commerce businesses should consider it and that's a relatively new development. So aside from everybody being on there and aside from people being actively engaged where like you're looking at how to pull a report from … it was Xero? Joe: Xero. Brett: So how to pull a report, if there'd been an ad related to something like that maybe it would have captured your interest or maybe not. But you can target people based on what they're doing on YouTube plus much more. So, of course, YouTube is owned by Google and so now you can target people based on their behavior that Google sees even off YouTube. So one of the options you have is keyword targeting. So if maybe I've got a new Xero alternative so better than Quick Books better than Xero whatever I'm going to … I want to woo people over to my new accounting software; which sounds like just the worst job in [inaudible 00:20:04.7] accounting software. But anyway we'll [crosstalk]. Exactly, I think I just fell asleep as I was mentioning it. But so then I could use keyword targeting and I could target people looking for Xero and Quick Books and Quick Books Online and Quick Books online tutorial. And maybe I'd even target things like why is Quick Books doing this; like some pain points around Quick Books like Quick Books keeps crashing things like that. So those are some of things people type into YouTube kind of just to find a fix. Well then if I've got the alternative to Xero and Quick Books then I run my pre-roll ad for somebody watching a video on how to fix a pain point inside of Quick Books. So there's this keyword targeting that's based on content on YouTube which is really powerful. But then going to what I alluded to a minute ago you can also target people based on what they're searching for on Google. So I think it'd probably be a toss-up like who has more information about you; Google or Facebook? I don't know really. They both know everything about us. And so I don't know about you, my search behavior on Google is different than it is on YouTube. Often if I'm going to YouTube I'm just watching music videos and stuff like that like sort of as in background even. But I search on Google for all kinds of stuff. So then you can target people on YouTube based on what they're searching for on Google. So if I sell running shoes I can look at a whole host of search terms that someone maybe typing on in on Google and I can build an audience around that and then target those users the next time they're on YouTube. Joe: So it sounds like if someone is doing any paid advertising on Google whether it's AdWords or Google Shopping or whatever it might be that they need to think of YouTube as just what it is which is an extension of Google. They're owned by Google. It is Google. Brett: Yeah. Joe: And all those same tools and resources are there that you just got to think visually. So it's really the last couple of years you started to see your advertising work better and get … Google's getting better at it to allow you to do a better job. Can you give me an example without naming any client names on in terms of what it's done for them so that somebody doesn't go “oh, wow, okay”? Brett: Sure. Joe: And what other channels within Google they're also spending money on? Brett: Yeah absolutely and so I'll kind of mention this first, I think YouTube is for a long time have been good at creating brand lift. So even kind of before some of the new targeting options and before some of the new ad options it was good at getting people to be aware of a product. So we'll use Boom by Cindy Joseph because Ezra wouldn't mind if I talk about it and we run all of the Google ads for Boom. But if we ran YouTube ads introducing people to Boom … let's just say we had no call to action I think at the end which we wouldn't do that but let's just say we did, that would likely cause a brand lift. More people would start searching for Boom on Google. After watching the video they'll be intrigued and say oh what is this let me check out a little bit more. And so that's always been kind of the platform or always been a benefit of the platform. But then kind of beyond that the next thing I would recommend someone to do is look at using YouTube for remarketing. So for people that visit your site whether they go to product detail page only or whether they add to cart and abandon, let's remarket to them. So let's use YouTube as a remarketing platform. And so that's what I've been doing for a while as well, taking our remarketing list like you alluded to all of this is built in the Google ads platform and it's now rebranded as Google Ads, not Google AdWords. So it's all in that platform so we can upload our remarketing list, we can start segmenting that and running YouTube ads to those people. So we typically segment break out site visitors, break out PPC viewers, break out cart abandoners, and kind of have different ads that we run from them. But then kind of beyond that we're looking at a new format called TrueView for action. And you kind of mentioned this before too where you're … this is where you're bidding on a CPA basis. So basically what we're doing is we're telling YouTube hey I'm willing to pay X, I'm willing to pay 100 bucks or 80 bucks or 50 bucks or whatever for a conversion and over time YouTube gets really good at dialing that in. So if you give YouTube the right audiences to go after and you have a video that's powerful over time the machine will start hitting that CPA target provided your site converts as well. Joe: Google TrueView? Brett: So as- what's that? Joe: Did you call it Google TrueView? Brett: It's TrueView for action. So it's a subset of TrueView. So you could just run standard TrueView which is the ad format I talked about before where someone has to watch 30 seconds or the whole video or you don't pay. So that's kind of standard TrueView. With standard TrueView, you're paying a cost per view. So you're telling Google I'm willing to pay five cents, two cents, 20 cents per- Joe: Yeah, risk … there's risk there but it sounds like the TrueView for action is look you're not going to pay unless it converts which is- Brett: Yeah exactly. Joe: But is there volume there? Brett: There is immense volume and that's one of those things where we've seen people be able to scale pretty quickly. So with Boom by Cindy Joseph, we went from not even really a channel to a pretty large channel quickly. And we were able to start kind of dialing in and hitting their CPA target within a couple of weeks. And then it will sustain that now for several months. Joe: What happens in the first two weeks when you're … if you're doing TrueView for action aren't you always hitting that CPA target? Brett: No. So you're not. And you give Google the CPA you want to hit and you set a daily budget. Joe: Okay. Brett: But the machine is experimenting in the beginning. And this is something where this is a little bit different than let's say Facebook ads as an example I know … and I'm not a Facebook ads guy. I don't run … I don't run our Facebook even but I know there is kind of this thought that with Facebook ads you build a bunch of an ad sets and you let them … you know each one spends 30 bucks, if it doesn't convert kill it, whatever. Really search pruning quickly. That doesn't work on YouTube, not with TrueView for action. You need to give the machine time to learn. So you're maybe going to be letting it run for seven or 10 days. Obviously, you could pause it if nothing's happening. But usually that CPA, it's going to be above the CPA initially and then it's going to start getting closer and closer to it. So we found again with the right video, the right targeting you can usually hit your CPA target if you let the machine kind of dial in. Joe: Okay, and you guys don't do any of the Facebook stuff. You're focused on most of the Google platforms and then you do the Amazon platform as well. Brett: Yeah exactly. Joe: And is it because that you integrate the Google Shopping, YouTube ads, Google AdWords, PPC whatever they've rebranded it you integrate them all together. Brett: Yeah. Joe: Do you think they help each other? Is it Google has gotten to the point where is it intelligent enough to pull resources from one to the other to help improve cost per conversion? Brett: Yeah absolutely and then one of the things that Google just really stepped their game up in the last couple years in the last six months even is audience targeting. So being able to apply some of those audiences even to your search campaigns and a few of the audiences to your shopping campaigns. But it is all connected because if you think about it if I'm in product research mode, if I'm looking at buying a new … let's say I'm buying a new [inaudible 0027:37.5] a couple of this things for a house and then I'm researching on Google then maybe after I find a few things I'm going to YouTube to watch a video or some unboxing videos or installation videos now I'm going back to Google. And so what you can do if you've got all of the campaigns setup and part of a … we call it a full funnel approach or a team of campaigns, we're not viewing search and shopping in YouTube as this completely separate entities but how do they work together because they do. So if someone finds us on search or shopping when they don't convert then let's use YouTube as the remarketing vehicle. If someone discovers us on YouTube and they watch a video and they become engaged with us but they don't purchase well then let's add them to a remarketing list and target them with search and shopping ads. Because maybe someone learns about your brand on YouTube they don't buy, their next activity is going to be I'm going to go to Google and search. I'm going to go search for this company now or find out more and so we can target them that way. So that's another piece we look at as we create a list of people that have viewed a video as an ad. And then we layer that into our search and shopping campaigns. And we've seen this … let's just go back to the Boom by Cindy Joseph example; we even created some campaigns where we only target people that have seen a video ad. And a lot of those people then go back to Google and they can't really remember the brand name but they remember seeing the video or whatever like something's caught their attention so they're just they're typing in a bunch of random things. Like make up for older women or you know things that would've been mentioned in the ad. And then we're able to target them because we built a list of people that viewed the video as an ad but actually converted them to research a shopping campaign. So if we just think about it, if we kind of step back and think about our own journey like what's my journey as a buyer? I really just click on one ad and buy. I don't just see one ad for a brand new product I've never heard of and purchase immediately. That doesn't happen. I'm usually going to search for something, be exposed to it, click around, visit, and then see another ad and then convert. So we would … we like to get all the campaigns kind of working together and connected. Joe: So let's say that someone is managing their advertising campaign themselves and business is getting big enough to they want to elevate themselves to more of the captain of the ship instead of a navigator if you want instead of just focusing on one part like the marketing are there resources out there to learn everything you need to learn about for the Google ads platform within Google and outside of it or is it simply your 20 years of expertise that … and what, staff of 17 that allow you to be better than any Tom, Dick, or Harry that's going to try to do it for their own business? Brett: Yes. So I mean there is a learning curve and I think the learning curve is a little steeper with Google ads than it is other platforms potentially. It's one of those things where learning the basics is not that complicated but then seeing how everything interacts and how one change leads to other implications is a little trickier. So there's a little bit of a learning curve but there are some good resources. So on the Google Shopping side, I wrote the Ultimate Guide to Google Shopping a few years ago. Shopify published that. It's totally free. Joe: Do you have to update that on a regular basis? Is it changing? Brett: Yeah, I just updated it a year ago. I needed another round of updates. The core of it is still good but it needs to be updated. Joe: Okay. Brett: I'm working on a course with Ezra Firestone. We launched the beta version on all of Google Ads. So it kind of starts with- Joe: Oh, excellent. Brett: -that foundation of Google ads. Joe: That's what I was looking for and I didn't know that. For everybody listening, I didn't know that by the way. Brett: Yeah. Joe: Because look some people are going to be hesitant to work with an agency. Brett: Sure. Joe: And historically I've been anti-agency although I owned one. I owned a media buying agency specifically for radio back in the day. Brett: Yeah. Joe: And my experience is as an agency owner is that you're going to work really really hard because you want to client to keep spending money because you get a percentage of that money that he spent. So you want them to be successful but as an e-commerce owner, my experience was … God, they blew it, my gosh my cost per acquisition went way up. Everything is destroyed. They're not paying any attention to anything that I said but what you did and what you presented was great and different. So that's … I wasn't going there but thank you for going there. So you've created a course on the Google ads platform with Ezra which will be done when? Brett: So probably by the time this … I don't know when is this is going to live but it will … it's launched in September of 2018 is when it will launch officially. Joe: Okay. Brett: So it should be available here pretty quick. Joe: So people can find that probably on smartmarketer.com right? Brett: Smartmarketer.com Joe: And OMG Commerce I would assume as well? Brett: Yeah well, have some links to it as well. Joe: Okay so let's assume that a certain group of people are going to be I'm never working with an agency and they'll Google and they find that there and they'll get that expertise and training which is exactly what I want. I want people to get the best advice and expertise. Brett: Yeah. And one thing I would maybe add to that is I would recommend that everybody get educated at least to a certain degree. Even if you plan on outsourcing it or hiring internally for it, learn the basics of the platform. Learn how everything kind of ties together. Because then you'll be able to analyze does this agency I'm going to be getting they know what they're talking about, is this person that I'm hiring do they know what they're talking about? So I think as a business owner you got to educate yourself at least on the basics and kind of see how the full funnel works and things like that. But yeah you don't have to hire an agency. You can hire someone in-house and train them up and that could be great for some businesses. Joe: Unless they quit. Brett: Exactly, yeah. That's true, yeah. Good to be diversified a little bit. Joe: I agree. Well listen, Brett I appreciate it, I appreciate your time coming on here just sort of unraveling the mystery of YouTube because again to me I've never thought about buying something there. Now that we've talked and I saw your presentation it's every time I'm seeing an ad and I've actually watched a few which is interesting but I haven't clicked through to buy yet. And I think that that's going to change. And I think that people will get ahead of it and start learning it now and being one of the early adopters of advertising on YouTube. They'll get ahead of the curve like those that focused on Facebook first. Brett: Exactly and I think it's … I think Facebook's going to be a viable ad platform for the foreseeable future. I think You Tube is going to be as well but I would liken where YouTube is now to where Facebook was a few years ago where it's pretty affordable to be on YouTube. Those costs will go up over time as more people hop on to the platform but it's a great place to be. And yeah we've seen from skin care to apparel to automotive to tech; all those verticals in e-commerce are getting good results on YouTube so it's worth exploring for sure. Joe: Fantastic, so YouTube is today where Facebook was a few years ago. Brett: I think so, yeah. Joe: That's a good way to end it. But for anybody that does want to talk to you, I think they can find you at OMGcommerce.com is that right? Brett: Yup OMGcommerce.com I'm happy to chat, happy to do an audit potentially of existing efforts and I'll let you know how we could potentially help. So yeah OMGcommerce.com. Joe: Well put that down in the show notes and if this is out before the course is done we'll go back and we'll put it in the course after the fact so that those that just want to learn on their own and maybe bring it in-house can learn from that as well. Brett: Yeah awesome. Joe: Thanks for your time Brett I appreciate it. Brett: Okay thanks Joe I really appreciate it. [inaudible 00:35:07.7] All right see you.     Links: OMGCommerce Website ecommerce Evolution Podcast – Get to know Brett How to Use YouTube to Scale Ecommerce Ads – Online eCourse

Ryan Daniel Moran was a preacher-in-training turned entrepreneur. He moved to Austin with little to nothing to his him name, and launched Amazon businesses that he eventually sold for over 8 figures. Ryan did us all a solid – really – by documenting and sharing his journey. The Freedom Fast Lane Podcast helps entrepreneurs at every stage of their business, from startup to exit. In this interview, Ryan shares his top three “mistakes”, or as discussed, things he wishes he did differently as he looks back. He openly shares his story and journey, in the hopes that other entrepreneurs do things to maximize the value of their business (and life). Through Ryan's conference, Capitalism.com, he helps bring like minded entrepreneurs and experts in the ecommerce space together to build brands and businesses that last. While he may be a preacher-school-dropout, Ryan still has a way of delivering the goods when it comes to advocating doing the right thing…so good things follow. Episode Highlights: [1:25] Who is Ryan Daniel Moran? [4:38] Is it better to buy or build? [6:43] Ryan thinks we're in a “seller's market” [8:05] What are Ryan's “mistakes” and what would he do differently. [11:30] Does it matter if you like your buyer? Does likability matter? [13:52] The likable buyer story…who won out over an all cash buyer. [15:12] Mistake # 1 – playing the short term. [17:25] Mistake #2 – telling people what to do and diminishing their talent. [18:51] Ryan shares his staffing team numbers. Inhouse and remote. [20:06] Mistake #3 – Ryan wishes he spent more money on advertising, customer acquisition, and brand building. [22:51] Why is a 100% Amazon business worth less than a Shopify store? [24:00] What channels would Ryan expand to – beyond Amazon.com [25:30] The first “nut you have to crack” [27:02] Ryan disagrees with Joe! [30:40] Brands last, product businesses don't. [31:06] Should you be thinking about a possible exit at all times? [33:05] What gives Ryan the “goosies”. Ok…he didn't say goosies, that was JLo. [33:58] Know what you will do with your money before you sell! [36:10] Should you plan your next brand before you sell, or stay focused? [39:29] How do you get more Ryan Daniel Moran Transcription: Mark: So if I could go back in time I would do a number of things different than I did in my entrepreneurial past especially before I sold my first company. And I have told you the story before that when I sold my first company I sold it for $165,000 only to find out that a year later the same person who bought the company got an offer for 350,000 without changing anything about the business at all. So … and there's a lot of regrets I have by not going back in time obviously I think anybody would like to have that ability. Joe: I'm glad it's that instead of saying you're bringing me on as a business partner. Mark: Well, you're here so I can't … I might not say that to your face. Only when you're on vacation and I have somebody else filling in as guest host. Joe: Well, Jason doesn't listen to the podcast, let's talk about him. Mark: Right. Exactly. Joe: Conversation … no regrets there. Yes and Daniel Ryan Moran was our guest and he talked about some of the regrets or as we called the mistakes because that's how he learns in life as many of us do by making mistakes and in trying not to make them over again. Fascinating … fascinating yes they're our podcast today Mark. I don't know if you recall … if you were there for his presentation at Smart Record over the last summer in Austin but he got up on stage and he spoke for 60 minutes with no script, no PowerPoint presentation and everybody was captivated. And the information that he has in it … volume of entrepreneurs that he works with and the velocities, and the approach, and everything about the way he does business and the way he literally … I mean not literally, preaches business. Okay, he's a … he was going to be a preacher so I want to say preacher school dropout. He chose to be an entrepreneur instead but the way that he talks about things is spot on with the way that we see the most successful entrepreneurs run their businesses. They focus on a number of different things and they implement those and maybe someday if they choose to exit they're in a great position to do so. Ryan talks about all of that including his own two exits that combined totaled over eight figures. Mark: Daniel Ryan Moran, same Moran that comes from Freedom Fast Lane right? Joe: Freedom Fast Lane Podcast where he talks about his story. You know five years ago he had a car and he drove to Austin, Texas and he decided he was going to launch an Amazon business and record his journey. And his journey is not over yet. It's on a new adventure, a different larger adventure but his journey kind of came to a new chapter after selling the last Amazon business that he had. But he talks about it all the way through on the Freedom Fast Lane Podcast. He got tired of seeing people do things the wrong way and learned ways to cheat at conferences and started to do his own conferences through capitalism.com and bringing good like-minded people together that build strong foundation long term value businesses and he talked about all of that today. Mark: Fantastic I can't wait to hear it. Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that a lot of you might know already. His name is Ryan Daniel Moran. Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Joe thanks about having me in, let's make some magic. Joe: Listen I was having a barbecue last night we had some friends over and this is an absolute true story and one of them is an entrepreneur wannabe. She's in the corporate world and she bought some Amazon products and she tried something and it didn't work but she's going to go at it again someday and she's grilling me … she always asked me how things are with Quiet Light Brokerage and she starts asking about the podcast. I said yeah we're doing all right and hey have you ever talked to Ryan Daniel Moran just like that and here you are today we're talking to you. You're kind of a little celebrity I should say … little, you're kind of a celebrity; a rock star maybe for this … look it was a 50 year old woman. She's rather attractive and she knows who you are. Ryan: Well you know it's like my ideal market is attractive 50 year old women. We all know that that's the market I'm after right now. So tell her to give me a … maybe call me maybe. Joe: She loves listening and the fact that you're first and foremost helping people that's what she loves about it. She says someday she's going to get back to it but she loves listening and she's going to take that leap at some point in the future so good for you. And listen as I said prior to the intro we don't do fancy intros. So if you would … I know it's hard to talk about yourself but give folks a little bit of background about yourself; who you are, where you came from, and what you're all about. Ryan: Yeah. I invest in and I start physical products brands. And the way that I got to that point was actually as a pastoral student back in 2006. I built my first website and started my first business in between high school and college on my shared dial-up computer in my living room and hand coded websites using raw HTML in a software program called Dreamweaver. If you are old enough to remember Dreamweaver and you know it well. So what's funny is we hear a lot of people who are talking about building and … or selling businesses thinking about the good old or either like all the opportunity is gone now or the good old days have these … man, I was hand coding websites in Dreamweaver on a dial up computer. Do you realize how much more opportunity we have now being able to build websites on platforms and sell products on Amazon? So the opportunities are way way bigger now but I was just trying to find a way to supplement my … what I expected to be $30,000 a year salary as a pastor. Now fast forward a few years I did not finish the pastoral route for reasons that would be probably best left on a second podcast that you have Joe that's going to be called quiet skepticism. Joe: Yeah, some kind of … something where we're helping people, we're guiding them off that path right. Ryan: Exactly; quiet go to the light we'll call it. And I did not finish that route and I became a full time entrepreneur. So I was in really involved in the internet marketing space for many years until I really decided or realized I hated that crowd. I didn't like hanging out with those people. So I was like what a conference where those people hung out and I took the skill set that I had from Search Engine Optimization from Pay-Per-Click Marketing from Email Copyrighting and I applied it to physical products brands. And I've had a couple of different exits in the physical products world and now I'm an investor in physical products businesses because it's what I know. It's who I can help the most. And I think it's one of the biggest upside is in the market right now whether you are selling or building a business or buying a business, I think there's a tremendous amount of white space with the transition from big brands into more what I call micro brands mostly Internet based that's where I see the biggest opportunities right now. So that's a … I've had a couple of exits and the total over billed were eight figures in cash exchange. I still own a minority stake in a few of those businesses and have a portfolio business but my primary focus is investing in physical products brands and I have a media company for entrepreneurs at capitalism.com. Joe: Okay, so when it comes to investing people look at buy versus build. In fact, we had a podcast recently with our newest broker Walker Diebel who wrote about a book called Buy Versus Build and there's a really long subtitle and it was a … it quickly rocketed to the top 10 podcasts that we have. And you're talking about investing, do you think it's better to buy versus build at this point in your career or would you recommend somebody that's just starting out to scrape some dollars together and bootstrap something and start? Ryan: Yeah, it's better for me to invest but it wasn't better for me five years ago. In 2013 when I took my first sale on Amazon.com for a physical product I know business investing in physical product brands. I know businesses buying physical products brands now … back then I was buying a lot of websites. And you know what I was buying Joe? I was buying search engine friendly websites with email lists … social media followings weren't this big back then, but with audiences, followings targeting each market that sold affiliate products; because that was what I knew. Joe: That's what you knew. Ryan: I would have been a lot of people who are like looking for the system and that you are the system. You are the machine. And your machine is unique to you. So applying your machine to different opportunities is where value is created. So for me, I'm … at this point, I have more upside as an investor because I already have all the retail connections. I have the connections to sell businesses. I'm connected to other investors. That's my own skill set but the entrepreneur who I invest in is way better suited to start that company than I am and that's what capitalism is. Where I get the value that I bring in combination of the value that you bring and when we bring them together it's greater than the sum of our arts. And so for me yeah I'm … I have more value as an investor but to say like it's better I think would be a mistake. Joe: You know I think you're absolutely right. It depends upon the individual's situation without a doubt. I bought and I've sold and I've invested as well and I can say each were successful in their own way and each were very very difficult in their own ways as well. You'll learn along the way from the mistakes mostly. Ryan: If I could Joe I will add though, I mean globally I think we're in a seller's market. I think we're looking at buying versus selling if I give it a binary choice I do think we're in a seller's market right now. Joe: I have to agree with you 100%. When we have a good quality listing come … I had a conversation with someone this morning who wants to buy. And he's a referral from somebody who already bought and this guy is doing great so I want to do what he's doing. And the response is look when a great listing comes along you need to be prepared. So the more listings you look at the more you're going to know the right shit when it comes along. And you need to be able to act fast because you and a dozen other people are doing the same thing and they're going to make an offer on that business. So I agree it's a seller's market but at the same time, the multiple still don't get pushed too high. It's still the buyer to decide that. You and I as sellers, as brokers can pick whatever number we think the value of the business is but we don't make the final decision at the end it's usually the buyer. The seller's got a lot to say about it because they can say yes or no. But it's still the buyer makes the decision in terms of the value for the most part. But you just recently said you've exited a couple of different times in the last few years. What did you learn in that process if you look at the exit? Or maybe do you want to talk about the fact … the mistakes you made maybe building and what you can do to help the entrepreneurs that are listening or perhaps the exit and maybe a little bit of both. Ryan: Yeah well, there's one thing in particular that I think was on the stake if you will and it was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. By the way, this is C money right here or by a … my … he is the one who wants to make great on the Internet. Joe: For those listening and not watching somebody just walked into the background. Ryan: Yeah, so the mistake that I made was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. And if I could redo this Joe, the truth is if you built something, if you built a business you're the one with the asset. You're the one with the goods that money is chasing you, people want to buy you and so often the seller comes into market and is like the thing that I'm after is the check and I'm hoping that I get the check and that immediately puts you in the frame in which you're the after. You're the one who is not in the power position. So we share them with an offer and the seller is like thank you please oh please Mr. Money Pants I would like your money. And now they're in a position to beat you up over earnings, over … in the negotiations. So what I wish I had done was recognize the fact that I'm the one with the goods. I'm the one with the asset that people want. I'm the one courting the offers. People are making offers to me. There they want one I got not the other way around. So if you're in that position and you're willing to say no and you combine that with the turn ship that says here's what I'm looking for, that to me puts the seller in the frame of mind repair and the negotiating position. I didn't do that. I discovered that after the fact and I really could only have learned that by going through the process. I learned … I personally learned by making mistakes and paying for them later. Joe: We all do. Ryan: Yeah but that's a mistake that I wish somebody had told me before I went to market. Joe: Or is it … the buyer that you're referring to is it a strategic buyer or did you have your business officially listed and people came to you? Ryan: Yeah, we had it listed and we were acquired by an equity group. I still own a minority stake in that company and I'm in great terms with the equity group. I'm really happy with the buyer. I have become friends and obviously business partners at this point. But had I gone to the market with terms that I wanted I probably would have ended up in a more favorable financial position when it came to closing. Joe: Well, the next time you have a transaction you'll know that and you'll be able to make adjustments. Ryan: Right. Joe: Really I think like you said the check isn't the end all, it's more about … I think almost in many ways what your next adventure is going to be. I know that a lot of folks that I work with and myself included when I exited I was just … I sold too late. I was emotionally tired and I think that's the absolute wrong time to sell. You should sell … you should plan to sell, just don't wake up and decide to sell. But when you're emotionally tired you're not doing everything that you can to maximize the profits of the business and that's going to drive down the value. And you're going to get beat up at the end if you're so committed to that check that you can't negotiate a little bit more for something else and be willing to walk away from that buyer if they're if they're not a good buyer. And correct me if I'm wrong but just tell me how you think here, I always find that it makes an enormous difference if you like the person that's buying your business or the one … if you're buying a business from. It's not just about the check. It's not just about the money. It's the people you're doing business with. And I think that as a seller you can get more value if you're respected and professional and likable and the same as a buyer, if you're a buyer and you're professional and likable and complement the owner on the business that they built that you're going to get a better transaction out of it versus all the hard core raw street negotiations. What are your thoughts on that? Ryan: I don't know if you are right or wrong because I intentionally don't do business with people that I don't like. [crosstalk 00:15:45.7] Joe: So, therefore, anybody that wants to buy a business from you if you don't like them then you've got to do that to work with somebody you like. A classic- Ryan: I don't think everybody has that mentality though. I think I would even go as far as to say the majority of people are buying and selling based on numbers or like the deal and very few entrepreneurs get to find every purchase as a person. And so I think most people are approaching it by numbers and logically rather than is there a connection here. I personally … just like for the protection of my own lifestyle am willing to say no to anything that I personally don't like. And what that does is it always puts me in a strong negotiating position because if I don't like somebody I have no problem walking away. And the person who has … the person who is most willing to walk usually has the upper hand in the negotiation. Joe: I agree 100%. I find that from a buyer's perspective one of the questions I get a lot from buyers if I'm up on a panel or speaking or something like this is how do I negotiate up against an all cash buyer, somebody that's got more money than me? And the tried and true answer is really is be likeable. It's … you don't necessarily have to have more cash to get the deal done and I … the classic example is I sold a business last fall. It was about two and a $2.5M and the guy had two full price offers within the first 10 days. One was from an all cash buyer who was a little rough around the edges and was hard to work with. The other was from a really likable guy who was buying with an SBA loan and actually required 10% seller financing in that. The entrepreneur, the seller of this business had the choice; you could go for the all cash or you can go for the guy that he liked. He actually chose the full price SBA buyer and chose to carry a 10% seller note versus working with somebody that he didn't like. So in that situation, I think it makes a difference in terms of … buyers that are listening be likable. If you're working with a broker you absolutely have to be likeable because they're … as you said it's more of a seller's market. And there's a lot of buyers out there. There are buyers that are competing for that same business and when they're likeable they're going to build rapport and when you build rapport you sometimes learn about things before they hit the market as well. Ryan, talk to me about some of the mistakes you've made in your own business. Maybe two or three of the biggest mistakes that comes up at the top of your head. Looking back and learning damn I screwed that up if I ever do that again I'm going to it a different way. Ryan: Well, every time I've made a mistake it was because I was playing the short term. So when I have made short term decisions I usually make bad decisions. I like to say that the longer term that I can make decisions the wiser I am and the better decisions that I make. I said before that people forget that behind every purchase is a person … that goes for customers too and all relationships are long term relationships. Or the best relationships are long term relationships. So if you are aware that behind every transaction is a person and you play it like it's a long term relationship you end up building the better company. Sometimes in spite of a short term decision, meaning … for example as we're recording this there's a … in the Amazon there's a thing we're calling review gate where Amazon is coming in and hit them onto your businesses and removing their reviews. And it's been a bloodbath. It's been absolute bloodbath. And the people who are soaring through it are people who have been doing of the right things the right way for the longest. And the people who are being hurt the most are the people who are the most profitable over the last couple years because they played the tactic game. And like there's absolutely room for tactics inside of every business but those who have been building really solid brands and building audiences and building followings they're going to soar right through this and capture a whole heck of a lot of market share. So the mistakes that I made were always in saying what's the Band-Aid solution here rather than building for the long term. So we take a rule now in the business that we're building, we say okay here's the situation that we're in rather than talk about how we're going to fix it let's say what do we wish we had started doing 90 days ago and that would have made today a lot easier to get through? That's the decision that we need to make today which is a really hard conversation to have when you're in reaction mode. But we force ourselves to ask that question because it usually addresses whatever the root cause is that we need to fix rather than going for a Band-Aid solution. So that being mistake number one, mistake number two would be as a leader telling people what to do. There's a great book called Multipliers that really morphed my brain in terms of how I can affect [inaudible 00:20:52.9] people. And what I realize after reading that book was that I have been diminishing the talents on my teams by telling people what I wanted them to do rather than casting a vision and inviting people to build their piece of that. Now that seems kind of a nuance and maybe overly simplistic but I couldn't emphasize enough the accountability that this book brought me on how much I was diminishing the people that I was working with, And the difference in energy and growth that happened once I started correcting those issues. So as an entrepreneur, we often have like our baby that we're bringing in to our team and we're telling people how to build the baby when reality if we're working with smart people they'll probably own that area of expertise better than we can even if we can't see it. And the big distinction of that book highlights is someone who diminishes their team is usually the smartest person in the room but a real leader makes the rest of the team like they're the smartest person in the room. And that was a huge shift in my overall happiness and with the growth of my companies and it's something that I wished that I had done before I was building companies to sell them. Joe: What kind of staffing do you have just out of curiosity? Ryan: Well, the company that I just exited was a team of four. The portfolio of companies … of brands that I have is a team of five. And my media company capitalism.com is a team of six. Joe: And are all of those people in-house or do you do some … or the VA's are they working remotely or they come to the office every day? Ryan: I'm only counting in-house people so that does not count freelancers. But no not everybody … we have … there's, we are a distributed team. So like I'm recording this in my office right now, one of my team members is just right here my side. But people will come in and out. Some people … like we have a team member in Canada, we have a team member in Germany, but they're all full time dedicated to [inaudible 00:22:47.0]. Joe: Good. I asked that because you know most people that are listening would probably be considered lifestyle entrepreneurs and they have to outsource staff and VA's and people working remotely. So it's good to know that even though they're not coming into your office every day this is really important [inaudible 00:23:02.3] get their short term vision don't have that long term vision so that you don't have major major stomach aches with algorithm updates we'll review gates in that situation and then over managing of the staff you know let them be their experts; anything else that comes to mind? Ryan: As far as big mistakes that I've made … I mean we talked about the mistake in selling and as far as building the business I'll say I wished that I had spent more money on cold advertising. Like always like there's never been a business that was like ah you know I think I spent too much on advertising. I've only ever said I wish I'd spent more on advertising. Joe: Yeah, where would you have spent it because these are primarily Amazon based businesses correct? Ryan: The businesses that I personally built, yes. Joe: Right. So where would you spend that money? Ryan: So we just identified the problem because you said they were mostly Amazon based businesses so had I done things even better I would have doubled down on non-Amazon advertising. Because what … if you're an Amazon business which is like nails on a chalkboard to me because it means you're dependent on somebody else. Joe: Right. Ryan: It means that you're dependent on this channel and you've got to go double down on building a business has a different leg to the stool and that when you combine those things together magic can happen. If you've got an email list of 100,000 people that you've built from cold advertising or from buying tripwires and now you're combining that with the power of something like Amazon.com that's really really powerful. Most physical products sellers never make that [inaudible 00:24:32.6] or they get so myopic into one channel that they never spend the money and the time to go develop the advertising for another channel. I wish I had been comfortable losing my rear end on other advertising channels until I figured out those systems. It's interesting Joe, it's true that every channel you will lose for a while and then you figure out the systems and then you start to grow through it and you get profitable. The strange thing is that most people once they've figured it out and get profitable they're unwilling to go do that hard work in another area. So the way that Amazon worked in 2013, '14, and '15 was if you spend until you grab long enough you could outrank everybody else and go win but I never … I lost that hustle when it came down to Facebook Ads or influencers and people start looking for the immediate ROI. In what business is there immediate ROI? When you're building a long term brand that has sales potential … like buyers are buying the systems; they're buying profitable systems because you've already gone through that hard work of developing the systems that are profitable. But it requires you to go build them so I wish I had spent more on advertising, been more willing to lay it on the line, rolled more back into reinvestment. So I'll call that mistake number three. Joe: So for buyers and sellers that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening it's that one legged stool, two legged stool, three legged stool. If you're 100% Amazon business it's riskier than if you also have a revenue channel from Google Ad Words and driving traffic to your Shopify store and you might be doing wholesale or B2B things of that nature but right away as I've said before if you've got a business that's just at within $100,000 in discretionary earnings that's 100% Amazon same business $100,000 in discretionary earnings but you've got 60% Amazon, 25% Shopify, I guess that would be 15% percent [inaudible 00:26:36.4] my math here, another percent of B2B that business on the other side is going to be worth 15 to 20% more. So you might be breaking even or losing a little bit of money on that land grab trying to grab more customers but if you can turn that into even the same discretionary earnings that business automatically is going to be worth 15 to 20% more because the buyers will pay more for a risk averse business that'll be around for the longer term so very very good advice. What channel would you go to first? Because there are so many options these days and building a channel off of Amazon is hard as you know. You've got to learn a whole new expertise. Where would you go first and what do most of your successful folks do? Ryan: Yeah and I'm actually going to cue on very creatively sidestepped this question because the obvious is Amazon. But where I would suggest is actually people double down on where the audience is. To me, this is the nut has to be cracked if their building a sellable company. And what that means to me it is for some people their audience hangs out following influencers. For other people that is they follow blogs or they have a blog where the audiences are already hanging out. Or some people they've got a Facebook where there's an audience. Now what most businesses, especially like a million dollar businesses, are doing is they're going channel first and trying to extract as much of it as possible. Like I'm going to go to Amazon try to rank and pull as much out of this pie as possible. Only a few people can win that game but if you switch it and you say where are my people who is the ideal buyer and where are they then the channel where you collect the order can always change. And that makes Shopify, Amazon, B2B a whole lot easier. The first nut that you have to crack isn't where the buyers hang out apart from the sales transaction and then you bring those buyers to the transaction. So the transaction to me … Amazon, easy no question. Put your product on Amazon the credit card is already there, people are already looking for it. No question, easy, done. The nut that needs to be cracked is what happens one step before that. And if there is … like if you don't have the influence, the list, the following, the traffic, the pay-per-click strategy that some way to go get those people and bring them into your ecosystem I think you are struggling from the get go and that's the primary question that I ask the entrepreneur. Joe: Yeah and I think depending upon as you say the product and what they're offering some of those different channels will make more sense. You know I had a conversation with someone this morning that has several brands and one brand has incredible numbers with email marketing and that same expertise applied to that different brand doesn't do as well. Ryan: Right. Joe: They're driving people to their Shopify store though Amazon keeps growing and out phasing everything else. So I understand identify where your customers hang out and then you've got to go find those customers. To own that list though you need to send them to your own store, not to Amazon. So are you sort of balancing between sending them to Amazon because it's all there or? Ryan: No, I just disagree. So I think that the loyalty to the brand is the customer experience. And you give the customer the ability to give you money wherever they are most comfortable making the purchase. I heard Brian Lee say where it's … Brian Lee is the founder of the Honest Company, the billion dollar brand with Jessica Alba, and I heard him say once that he considers it a win when the product is in the customer's home. That's when you've wo, not collecting it online e-commerce site, not getting into retail. It's when the product is in the customer's home. However, they get it and you want to release as little friction as possible getting the product into the customer's home. You will own the customer experience when you have their data. You have the ability to communicate a message in front of them. So if you've got the email list and you send them over to Amazon, Amazon rewards that and your conversion rate is probably going to be higher sending them to Amazon that sending them to your Shopify store. So there's a balance [inaudible 00:31:12.7] I know that I can get a higher immediate customer value sending them to my own web site because I can put them through upsells and cross sells to get their immediate data versus sending them to Amazon where I am going to have to work to get their data. I don't have any upsell experience. They might see a negative review. And so the entrepreneur is going to have to play the game of where the numbers make the most sense over the long term. But I think that the actual customer experience happens in when you communicate with them. And that's in the email message, that's in the outside of just a transaction, not just where their credit card is being added but words being communicated. Joe: Okay, I get and I'm just going to repeat it for those that are … well not smarter than me; let's put it that way. So it's capturing the customer information up front, building that relationship with them, and then simply send them to the place that they can buy the product and experience the brand with the least amount of friction and get it in their home. Ryan: Nailed it. Joe: Okay. Ryan: That's my opinion. Joe: And it all goes back I would say and it's kind of almost unspoken that the brand has to be pretty amazing so focus on that first. Build a great product, a great brand so they have a great experience and then do all that other stuff as well. Ryan: Yeah and let me address that because that often brings up the question how do I identify a brand? Like what exactly is the brand. And the brand is the way that trust is communicated to a very specific customer. Most Amazon sellers have no idea over their customers they know what their product is. If you know what you sell and not who you sell to you do not have a brand. Or you might have a brand but it's really lousy whereas if you know who the person is, it makes the product really really easy. I was just meeting with one of my team members today; we were expressing the frustration over one of our brands in our portfolio. Because when we acquired it, it sold a lot of product but it had no target market. And so we've had to do a lot of work to convert that brand into an actual brand where people are not just buying a product but they're buying something and it says about them sells. Those businesses last, product businesses don't because they're commodities. You forget about commodities and the minute that there's a better price or better customer experience their loyalty changes. But when you've got the brand people are very stingy with their trust. I want to give it to you, you have them for as long as you keep their trust. Joe: Very important message right there. Ryan, any thoughts in terms of whether someone should be building this business and always think about the future and possible exits; do you try to instill in them that they should know the value of their business in the event they wake up some day and want to move on or do you just focus on building that brand and when you're ready the time will come? Ryan: You know the real … the temptation for me is to say that no, you shouldn't be necessarily thinking about selling but I know that I'm in a different spot than everyone who's listening. So I would say if you are building this to make money, be building it to sell from day one. Because the very act of being in it for the money means that you will burn out, you will wake up and want to do something else. It's going to happen. So if that … and like let's just be real about it, if you're in it because of the payday, build it to sell because that's what you're in it for and the payday is the cherry at the end of the rainbow here. If you were in it because you've got a product you want to bring to the world then still develop the systems and processes that will keep you in the position to be in your zone of genius. And that will make you more sellable one day but I don't think it's necessary for you to know what it's worth or be making decisions based on that. So these are different goals. Now I build companies that I'm excited about and I am building them in the same way that we make something valuable because I want to be in a position where I'm just in my zone of genius. But it's a different mindset than if I'm building something because it's going to be profitable. Does that make sense Joe? Joe: Absolutely; excellent …excellent. Hey listen I know we're running out of time here I just want to say that last summer I was at the stock market conference and you got up and you spoke as did another dozen or so very very successful entrepreneurs. Each and every one of them had a PowerPoint presentation. You got up there with nothing. And you talked for an hour and the audience was captivated as was I. You have a gift thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. Ryan: I just got goose bumps. Thank you so much, mate. I really appreciate it. Joe: How do more people get to experience that and listen to you and hear what you do share? Ryan: You know I'd love to answer that question, can I offer one more piece of advice before we go? Joe: You can offer a dozen more pieces of advice. Ryan: Wow, awesome. I'll leave it to one but if you are in this to please have a plan of what you're going to do with the money when you get it. Entrepreneurs are magicians. We remake things up here on thin air. We create value out of thin air. We create a bigger pie. We make money show up. And we also make things disappear. Joe: Isn't that true? Ryan: And if you do not have a plan of what you're going to do with the money it will slip through your fingers. I know you think you're the exception. I know you think all I have to do is invest this at 8% and I'm [inaudible 00:37:11.5]. I know you think that's how it's going to be. You will ball the money. I … right now I just heard you think “no I won't”, yes you will. So if you don't have a net for catching the money and allocating the money for your lifestyle you will be back in the grind very very quickly. I promise you, I know you don't believe me. I'm here to tell you that's the case. Have a plan for what to do with the money once you get the money. It's actually my favorite conversation to have. At some point, I'll probably have more chops [inaudible 00:37:45.3] about investing once you have a big windfall. But for now, it's like have a plan like a plan is better than no plan. And that plan would probably be best done after you sat on the money for about six months and you've gotten used to that money being in the bank account. Your second question or actually your only question was- Joe: Can I interrupt that? Ryan: Please. Joe: I definitely want to get to that but in terms of having the plan to exit, I'm always telling people look have your next adventure planned. Because entrepreneurs like you say they blow through the money, it goes through their hands like saying. I'm often saying maybe get that other opportunity started and launched long as it's not competing to get the ball rolling. So that you got some working capital maybe you're going to put it in … some of it you're not as bootstrapped although you'll be more successful probably if you are. Do you think maybe they should 100% focus on what they're doing on that brand before they sell it up until the day they sell or maybe when it gets big enough and good enough and they've done enough right they can take some of their attention and start Brand B while they're selling off Brand A? Ryan: Wow, Joe. The reason I'm saying wow is because my experience is pretty unique and that was I took about a week off and then I immediately went back to workaholism and it was the worst. It was a horrible experience. Now full disclose like at the same time I was going through separation and I'm going through a lot life changes. I threw myself into work right after the sale. I celebrated by reading books on my patio for like eight days and I was immediately back to workaholism. And I like … I roasted my body, I mean I so needed a break and I did not give myself that break. I don't know if every entrepreneur was as burnt out as I was. I was more burnt out than I [inaudible 00:39:40.5]. Joe: Most ideal [inaudible 00:39:42.8] they come to me tired, exhausted, ready to move on. Ryan: Joe, it's been over a year. I wouldn't even say I'm back now. You know I'm probably operating at 75% of capacity because I never really recovered. So should you go right back into it? I don't know. I think it depends on the level you're at and your own wiring. I make really good decisions when I'm relaxed and creative. I make terrible short term decisions when I'm stressed. And when I'm in that workaholic mode I'm a terrible entrepreneur. I wish I had just blissed out for like three months; I didn't. Joe: I don't know what the folks that listen to you every week would do if you would disappear for three months though. Ryan: Well here's the thing though Joe. I kind of did. Like my podcast sucked for like three months, three to six months and I was trying … like I'm sitting in front of mic trying to come up with things to say and I was uncreative as heck. So I sort of did disappear it was just a different way. And now I'm getting back to it and it's a completely different experience. But I actually think I did my listeners a disservice by not taking a break. And if have been just really upfront and be like guys I just got an eight figure check I am going to the beach and I will call you when I'm ready. My audience would've popped but instead, I was like operating from this place of like I'm so … oh my goodness I'm so tired and I turned off a lot of people. I know it's not the answer that you expected it's not the answer I expected to give you. Joe: No, I like it. Ryan: But I think it's true. Joe: I think sleep and rest and meditation or whatever it is to focus on is absolutely necessary. So back to that original question and you know finding out what they do with the money after they sell. How do they get more of Ryan Daniel Moran? How do they experience what that audience down at Smart Market and myself experienced where you just talked and everybody listened and took notes and all that? Ryan: Well, thanks so much, man, my media company is capitalism.com. My podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. And I say things into a microphone and we hold events at capitalism.com that are specifically for entrepreneurs. And we're actually … we just rebooted the Freedom Fast Lane podcast. I feel as though- Joe: With fresh energy. Ryan: What's that? Joe: With fresh energy right? Ryan: Well yeah, I think you'd probably feel it from me. Five years ago I started this journey as a boy and I was … I just put everything I owned into my car, drove to Austin, Texas, started some new companies, I documented the whole experience from startup to sale. And then I kind of grew up while documenting the journey. And now there's a new journey and it's a much bigger one and so we just rebooted kind of the entire audience, the whole experience in the podcast. And my podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. My company is capitalism.com. Joe: Okay. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. I'd love to see you be more successful on this new adventure, this bigger journey. Ryan: Thank you. Joe: Let's stay in touch. I think I may see you at the capitalism conference at the end of August; let's see. At the very least we'll be to as many as we can be over the next few years. Ryan: Good to see you man, thank you so much for having me. Joe: Thanks for your time, I appreciate it. Links: Capitalism.com FreedomFastlane.com

We may have reached, “a fairly critical point where traditional photographic evidence just isn't as reliable as it used to be.” This according to our most recent podcast guest, Joe Kashi. In addition to being a trial attorney in Alaska, Joe has worked in automation technology and is himself a serious photographer. Recently Joe taught a two-part webinar series, “Using and Misusing Visual Evidence, Parts 1 and 2,” moderated by ALPS Risk Manager and podcast host, Mark Bassingthwaighte. In this interview Mark and Joe delve even deeper into how technology and the accessibility of photo editing software is changing how we view photographic evidence in the courtroom. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. MARK: Hello. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager here at ALPS. Welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, a podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm delighted today to be able to introduce not only a guest, but a good friend, Joe Kashi, and Joe is a lawyer who practices in Soldotna, on the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska. Joe, as always, it's great to have an opportunity to visit with you again. Do you want to take a moment and just share an item of interest about yourself to our guests? JOE: Sure, just by way of brief bio. But usually, other people do it. Well, Mark, you and I have been friends for over 20 years, since we were doing technology presentations for the ABA Tech Show together. MARK: That's right. JOE: And quite a number of presentations after that. So, I think we know each other's handwriting pretty well. But for our listeners, I got my bachelor's and master's degrees at MIT, where I've been working with automation technology since the late 1960s with old hand punch card mainframes, and hopefully stayed reasonably current since that point, even though I'm practicing as a lawyer in a relatively rural part of Alaska. After Georgetown Law School, I worked in D.C. for a while. Actually, myself and two other guys were the first three people to work on a National Science Foundation project, tracking the rise of the, quote, “information society in America,” which actually was a term we coined back in the mid-1970s. I got rather tired of … I guess I'd have to say I'm an east coast refugee, because after that, I moved to Alaska, where I've been doing trial practice for the last 40 years, mostly in construction litigation, personal injury, and some real property litigation. MARK: I've always … Thank you for sharing that. Every time we have these conversations, I learn a bit more. I've always viewed you as a guy who has been sort of ahead of the rest of us. That is in part why I entered into a discussion with you last summer about putting on a webinar program for us, and you did it, although I was technically along for the ride. You did all the heavy lifting on this, and I'm referring to a two-part, three hour webinar series that you did. It's still up, by the way, and available for download, if any of you out there in the listening audience want to take a look at this at some point, but it was entitled, “Using and Misusing Visual Evidence.” My interest, as you recall, Joe, is just coming to the realization that so many of us, day to day, have these photo editing tools, and you come back from vacation, and you do all kinds of editing, and I started to think, “Wait a second. This is so easy to do.” I don't buy that clients and perhaps at times lawyers, not necessarily trying to do anything unethical or something, but that people aren't editing and doing things with evidence, in terms of photographic evidence. So, we kind of got started on this program. I'd like to kind of follow up on that program, and ask again the question, should lawyers be concerned about the ease with which anyone can edit digital photographs? And to follow up to that, why? JOE: Well, Mark, I'm going to throw in a little bit of extra background there. I've also been doing serious photography for about 50 years, ever since studying with Minor White back at MIT, and actually had a photo finishing lab for several years as a sideline. It's an unusual situation, because the digital era really is bringing three different areas into focus; trial practice, photography generally and conceptually, and then the more recent digital revolution, which very much allows you to make the sorts of work you never could do with a traditional chemical film and paper kind of film photography aspect before. So, really, what we've reached is … I would say rather suddenly, is a fairly critical point where traditional photographic evidence just isn't as reliable as it used to be. In fact, I can say that it's becoming significantly less reliable. The concerns we run into, I think they're fairly common. I've had cases … And it's not so much the lawyers that are the problem as the people who've consulted with me about these situations, and there have been several, even in our small town of Alaska that have come to my attention, has to do more with clients or complainants who are bringing … show excessively enhanced photographs to the attention of the lawyers, and then attempting to use those as evidence. Every photograph is enhanced to some extent, otherwise it's essentially unusable. You make traditional correction. You correct the exposure, correct the contrast. MARK: Right. JOE: That sort of thing. Not a problem. The sorts of corrections that you can make in a dark room were generally within reasonable, although even then, there's a lot of case law about what is or not acceptable. More recently, and especially the last two or three years, with the rise of artificial intelligence neuro-networking built into various photographic “enhancement” programs, we've reached sort of a watershed, where there's essentially no film photography being done anymore, except by people doing it are the fine arts standpoint. That's usually large format, four by five sorts of cameras and larger. For the average day to day use, digital photography's great, but the problem is ensuring that what you're using is appropriate, and therefore not being misused. It's important, I think, to note that using photography to document stuff or to explain, is a tremendous benefit. It's the sort of thing which helps trial lawyers really go and help make their story really, really comprehensible very quickly, because we're primarily visual rather than linear. You can get a lot more and be a lot more persuasive with a single picture than with the proverbial 1,000 words. We're taught in law school, “Paint a picture with words.” I suggest you show the picture instead. It's going to be a lot more reliable. But people, I think, are becoming more and more aware of the ease with which matters can be manipulated, and I would caution, it's not just still photographs. There's new technology that I've seen demonstrated by Adobe and others that allow you to go and totally erase people, totally, from a video. It's not just digital stills anymore. It is digital video as well becoming very quickly susceptible to the same level of manipulation. MARK: That's what I find absolutely frightening in some ways. JOE: Me too. MARK: It just makes my head hurt at times. When I think about the pace it changed, Joe, and in terms of hardware and software, it just … The stuff is crazy fast. I was sharing … I recently read an article about a startup that built a smartphone with 16 cameras onboard, and I'm sitting here, “Why in the world would I need 16 cameras on a smartphone?” But, you know, again … JOE: Well, that brings up a good point, Mark. I was going to mention that. MARK: Yes. JOE: I was thinking as you're talking, there's something called computational photography, which is now coming to the fore. Computational photography can take a lot of inputs and, by applying intensive computation, really clean them up a great deal. On the webinar that we have posted, there's some examples of those sorts of computational photography that go way beyond just going and using traditional digital tools in something like Lightroom to go and enhance, say, pull out a face in a video. Now, there's a certain amount of enhancement that state supreme courts around the country have found to be acceptable. But what's become … on videos and stills both, but there are also levels where it goes not just beyond excessive enhancement, but it can start rising to the level of a fraud in the court and a clear ethical issue. It's kind of a fine line there between what's appropriate, what isn't appropriate, so obviously based upon circumstances. But the common thread has been generally to use a standard program, which produces replicatable results, and provides an audit trail. More than anyway, we're getting back to the traditional evidence rules 102, 103, 104, where the weight is becoming critical. The weight appropriately has to be decided by the trier of fact, and whether it's even admissible at all. Obviously by the trial judge. But when you get back to those issues, what the courts are starting to say is, “We want you to use a program that doesn't allow you to paste a gun from one person's hand into the picture of a totally innocent person, or paste one face on another.” I would argue that that's critical. So, I tend to recommend a program that has a non-destructive editor, such as Adobe Lightroom, where what you have is a database of changes that you've made, and you can step backward or forward. Unlike a program like Photoshop, where once you've gone and done the image, let's say you've composited two layers; put the gun into somebody else's hand. Once you've gone and done that, you save the file, there's no going back. All the other changes are lost. Everything is essentially lost in terms of prior data, being able to backtrack to where you started. So, what you have then is a need for looking very carefully at the metadata. All the information about the photograph, what was done about it, and to a certain extent, that is embedded in the files. If the metadata seems incomplete or missing, then obviously that's a case by case basis. They should be very suspicious about the photograph, because it's obviously been enhanced. Metadata … Every JPEG file, which is kind of the standard interchangeable format, every JPEG file by international definition, the very definition of a JPEG required that certain data be embedded in it that have a lot to do with showing the circumstances that it was taken, how the camera was adjusted. For example, perspective, which is critical in a lot of accident injury cases. Those sorts of things are critical. They're in the metadata. If the metadata's not there, then you're likely to go and be very … or should be very suspicious about the photograph itself. If the metadata is there, you could go and then start looking at it from the standpoint of traditional case law about what photographs are appropriately admissible or not. And then it goes to the weight of the evidence at that point. Generally speaking, I recommend that people use a non-destructive editor, like Adobe Lightroom. Not a destructive editor that bakes the changes in forever, like Adobe Photoshop or similar layered programs, that they use what's called the raw file. Raw files are all the data that the sensor ever captured. They're saved as a raw file. If you set it up as such, JPEG and raw files are two different formats. JPEG, once a change is made or once it's taken by the camera, all the data is baked in. You can't change it. You can't recover all the stuff that's been lost through JPEG compression. Raw gives you the ability to go with a program like Lightroom and stipulate from the original data all the way through to whatever your final result is that you want to show to the trier of fact, and then prove to the trier of fact what steps you've taken. So you could show … you could go step by step, repeating along the way. That's the feature of Lightroom. You can step by step along the way, and show to the trier of fact how you got to the result you're offering as an exhibit. That's often been very critical as an admissibility factor for both stills and videos in the state supreme court decisions I read. MARK: What- JOE: Anyway, metadata … Raw format if you can. Metadata, try to avoid formats that bake the changes in forever and lose everything. MARK: That makes sense to me, but I often … in terms of what lawyers should be doing, but … as they handle and use digital evidence, visual evidence. But I'm a risk guy, and I also … A big part of my job is looking at, where the problems kind of come up? I guess one of the things I get concerned about is just clients, whether it's an adverse party or our own client. They have ready access to these programs that, to use your phrase, that are destructive kinds of things, and can insert the gun into a hand of somebody that … Those kinds of things. JOE: And then try to erase the evidence. MARK: Right, right. Do you think … Am I … I tend to get paranoid at times about all kinds of things, but is that a realistic concern? JOE: Yes. MARK: Do lawyers need to be aware? JOE: I've seen several cases like that come up in the last few years, even in our small area of 45, 50,000 people. MARK: Yeah. That's just … JOE: I'm aware of at least three. MARK: Do you think in terms of our profession as a whole, do you think lawyers generally get that? JOE: No. MARK: Yeah. JOE: Very few lawyers get it. Unfortunately, they may end up getting it in the end. If that occurs, you've seen cases where people were newly convicted, upstanding business people, for example. Somebody had a grudge against him, and they didn't exactly contract stuff, but let's just say that erasing the metadata prevented people from going in and analyzing that in fact, something wasn't exactly what they purported to be, but was closer or farther or whatever if you fall. But I'm saying, their perspective analysis is critical at that point. MARK: So, if you were to … Let's pretend for a moment I'm just a young lawyer, kind of trying to get into the litigation game, and you become something of a mentor to me. What would you choose to share? I guess I'm trying to get at, what are the risks that I'm facing if I stay naïve? What do I need to just think about, generally speaking, in terms of trying to become competent in all of this? Just some closing remarks, I guess. JOE: Okay. Well, becoming competent in terms of the visual evidence, and I'm referring about stills and video at this point. MARK: Yes. JOE: Fundamentally, I think what you need to do is at least stay on top of the sorts of changes that are occurring, if nothing else. People tend to be using more and more smartphones, for example, as a primary photographic tool, which I, since I come from a construction litigation background, where it's often critical, as we showed in the webinar, by the way, construction litigation and personal injury, it's awfully critically to be able to go and later zoom in and find tiny, but very important details. If you don't have the kind of resolution, exposure range, and other factors, that are typically lacking in cell phones, then you're not going to have that data. My general concern with cell phones is that … or I should say smartphones, is that the photographs from those tend to be on average really not as good as they should be, at a minimum, for forensic purposes in court, especially when you need to make a print that's bigger than, say, eight by ten for the jury, the view of the jury room, et cetera. We still need to have prints, if you will, for evidence. The fact that a cell phone looks good on a computer screen isn't sufficient. That's actually a very well-resolution medium. It looks good, but not for serious forensic use. So, first thing I think is to start learning how to use, or at least have … learning how to use a higher quality resolution camera. Micro four thirds, APSC full frame digital are good numbers. Any of those will work well. And probably at least become aware of the sorts of things that can be done with programs like Lightroom or Photoshop. You can't be your own expert. You can't be your own witness, of course. MARK: Right. JOE: But at least you could start issue spotting. And issue spotting is, what's happening with the metadata? What sorts of new computational approaches may render this less positive and start doing serious discovery about the nature of the … basically about the nature of whatever evidence is in front of you. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. How I tend to view this is, we all now, I think in today's world, really understand and appreciate … Just because it's on the internet, doesn't make it true. And I [crosstalk 00:19:17] JOE: That's certainly really … No, that statement is true. MARK: Did I get it backwards? I'd say … JOE: No, it's okay, I agree with you. MARK: Yeah, yeah. But sort of paralleling that into digital photography, just because we have a digital file, whether it's a photograph or a video, doesn't mean that the information presented in the video or on the photo is an accurate capturing of the event. JOE: Well, a least not after it's been post-processed, and potentially not when it was captured, either. MARK: Right. Right. JOE: What I would suggest overall, Mark, is knowing the traditional evidentiary rules, being able to go and document what was done to the trier of fact. Always having an unaltered copy of the original photograph from the very beginning with everything in it. All the metadata, all the data, anything else. It's going to be critical. You preserve the original photograph exactly unchanged, be able to show it to the trier of fact what has been done to go with the … to basically make your final exhibit, that it's within the bounds of conventionally acceptable enhancement. Recognizing that you have to prove weight of the evidence to the trier of fact will go a really long way. I don't see a … Given the vast changes in the technology of what can be done post-processing, I'm not sure that we can come up with a good, hard and fast technical rule that's any more effective than the traditional rules of evidence, assuming that people get the metadata and analyze it with an appropriate expert, and assuming that people go and … trial lawyers understand basic photographic notions as they would affect what's seen. And it's always worth remembering that the camera will see things differently than the human eye. At best, there's an approximation. MARK: Yes. JOE: It's not one to one exact. MARK: Right, right. Listen, Joe, I really appreciate your taking time to share your insights on what I consider just a very, very important topic. To those of you listening in, I will share; if you would like to learn a bit more, the webinar that Joe put on for us last fall is still available for viewing and download, so on demand webinar on our website, ALPSnet.com. Beyond that, I guess I'd say, hey, I appreciate all of you listening, and have a good one. We'll see you next time on ALPS In Brief. JOE: Thanks, Mark. So long. Joseph L. Kashi practices law in Soldotna, Alaska.  He received his B.S. and M.S. degrees from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1973 and his law degree from Georgetown University in 1976.  He is admitted to practice before the Alaska Supreme Court, the U.S. Supreme Court, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and the United States District Court for the District of Alaska.  Since 1990, he has frequently written and presented about a wide range of legal technology topics for the American Bar Association and many state bars.  Case studies of his law office's use of legal technology has been featured on Lexis-Nexis and Adobe web sites. Link to the on-demand CLE seminars taught by Joe last fall here: Using and Misusing Visual Evidence, Part 1 Using and Misusing Visual Evidence, Part 2

For those of you that don't already know Mike Jackness, he runs an ecommerce business approaching 10m a year in revenue, and is the co-host of the EcomCrew Podcast. On the Podcast Mike shares his direct experience with listeners to help them grow their ecommerce businesses. If you've tuned in to our Podcast regularly, you've heard Mark and I talk about how multiple revenue streams increase the overall value of your business (by de-risking it). So…if you want a more valuable business why not expand it to include email? But email marketing is dead right? All junk mail and spam. If that's true why does Mike get an open rate of 30% on his emails…and generate over 52% of his revenue for ColorIt from email? Because it works…and he does it in a “helpful”, customer friendly way. On today's Quiet Light Podcast Mike shares his process with email marketing using Klaviyo, and talks about how their Facebook synchronization feature enhances his customer reach and overall return on investment. The Facebook ads produce a whopping 1500% return on investment! You can learn about Klaviyo through their online training feature, and listen in to the EcomCrew Podcast and pick up additional tips and strategies. Mike and Dave also offer specific training such as importing from China, Launching on Amazon and finding your product niche. Episode Highlights: Using Klaviyo email marketing software to produce over 50% of revenues Add on the Facebook Synchronization piece and boost your ROI (1500% in Mike's case) Email marketing should be “helpful”. Treat the customers the way you want to be treated. The “trifecta” as a marketer includes an email address, a facebook messenger list and have the customer pixel'd. Google, Yahoo, AOL etc. look for a high open rate. Remove customers who don't open emails after 13 weeks. There are no “secret 10 step plans” that work for every model. Know your business variables and apply them to increase your success. EcomCrew Podcast has produced over 150 Podcasts. And yes..the best episode is #88. Knowing the value of your business and planning for an exit – is the smart thing to do. Transcription: Mark: Oh welcome back from Italy. Joe: Thanks man, it's good to be back. Mark: Ah is it really? Joe: Yeah that's a good question, I don't know. Mark: Well welcome back all the same. I'm sure everybody's glad to hear you instead of me for a change. Joe: I'm a little tanner and a little fuzzy. I haven't shaved in a couple weeks. Mark: Yeah. Joe: Haven't trimmed it a couple of weeks I should say. Mark: Haven't trimmed … are you missing the espresso and the- Joe: Oh man café, ginseng, the views of the ocean. We were at the coast for most of the times as you now we're in Rome as well but up in the north and coast of Italy is absolutely gorgeous. Mark: Hey I got a business idea for you. I think you and I need to start a podcast about traveling to Italy and of course, you would have to go onsite for that. Joe: I think it's a great idea. Let's do it. Mark: All right you guys we're going to shut down Quiet Light Brokerage and move on to a new business, new venture; a podcast about Italy but stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, we do actually have something related to Quiet Light Brokerage and that is … and to buying and selling online businesses; you talked to a mutual friend of ours, somebody who's been a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage for a while Michael Jackness. Joe: Mr. Mike Jackness from EcomCrew. Mike and I go back to him at e-commerce shield presentation he did on email marketing and a Klaviyo on what he does within his ColorIt Company, the adult coloring book company. And you would think email marketing is dead but this guy generates 52% of his revenue from email marketing. Has like a 30% open rate and just nails it, hammers it down and produces a ton of revenue that way and does Facebook synchronization. He talks about it all, on his Facebook synchronization that's part of Klaviyo, don't want to get too technical but he gets a 1500% return on investment. You and I have talked about this all the time, diversification of revenue streams does what to a business other than add more revenue; it's more valuable, right? Mark: It absolutely reduces the risk, increases stability, yeah. Joe: That's right. So we talked about that. We talked about the ability to expand beyond your typical just one source of revenue e-commerce business whether it be your Shopify store or your Amazon FBA site using tools like Klaviyo and Facebook Messenger, things of that nature. And then we talked a little bit about EcomCrew what they do there. EcomCrew is yes a podcast Mike and Dave have been doing it for almost three years now and they just simply help people. They've got a … my favorite subject is the under the hood section where they actually talk to an e-commerce owner about the problems within their business and try to help them right there right on the podcast sharing a lot of detailed information for people to help themselves. Mark: That is pretty cool. He has a ton of knowledge absolutely. The podcast they have is fantastic. I think the topic itself is really fantastic especially as people are trying to build up more integrated marketing systems. You know this idea of having their email coincide with a live Facebook audience and the marketing that you're doing there. Really really kind of advanced stuff but really good stuff and those numbers are staggering; 1500% ROI on Facebook. Joe: Yeah, huge. Mark: Incredible. Joe: Huge and he started small. He started testing little things just like everyone else. It's not like he had all this knowledge, he figured it out along the way. And just to put some numbers behind Mike and his expertise he's hoping that 2018 will be the year when his business overall hits the 10 million dollar revenue mark. So he's not a small player, he's doing a great job. Somebody that is now traveling around the world doing presentations and speaking on E-commerce Group Podcast subject and on email marketing and e-commerce in general, so definitely somebody worth listening to. Mark: You know one thing I do want to say before we jump into the episode, when people are listening to these numbers and hearing things like 1500% ROI, 10 million dollars breaking this year, I think it can be really intimidating for some people that are maybe at the beginning stages to hear this and to see all the opportunity and see so many advanced stuff these people are doing. We did an episode with Dan from Science of Skill who pulled about two million dollars of revenue from an email list of about 11 or 12,000 people. We've talked to Bjork Ostrom from Food Blogger Pro who is completely dominating that world. And I think the one thing just to keep in mind if you're hearing these episodes and seeing what some of these people are doing don't be overwhelmed by it and understand something that you alluded to Joe; he's done this over time. Focus on this continual improvement every day, small little group improvements and you can work yourself up. These guys didn't jump up to this in one month they did this over time. Joe: Yeah and on the podcast EcomCrew, he'll talk to and work with people that are doing 50,000 dollars a year in revenue and that's what they do under the hood and they help that. He'll also do it for folks that are doing half a million in revenue or five million in revenue but you know at all stages there's different tools and resources that can be used to help people grow their business. And bottom line is Mike's just a really nice guy. He's an expert in the arena. He's sharing the information. He's not afraid of competition. He says if I share information about my business and competition comes up and bites me in the heels it's because I didn't do a good enough job in promoting my own products. Mark: That's awesome. All right let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Mike Jackness on the line with me. Hey Mike how's it going? Mike: Good man, it's good to be here. It's good to see you, I wish it was in person but it's … at least we're actually … we're in the same room. Joe: I agree. Good to see you as well and I know you've been traveling the world, good to be back in San Diego I hear right? Mike: It is man, like I can live anywhere in the world I want. At least we could at the time when we moved here I was like we had a virtual business but it's we're kind of anchored down here now but I want to be here and I feel sad whenever I had to go somewhere because it's San Diego, it's a pretty awesome spot. Joe: Well you got good problems. You're kind of a big shot now; you're travelling the world [crosstalk 00:06:51.0] all over the place. For those folks listening that don't know you why don't you, as you know we don't do formal introductions here at Quiet Light. Why don't you share a little bit of background on yourself? So what your history is, what you're doing now so that they understand who we're talking to today. Mike: Yeah no problem it's always [inaudible 00:07:07.3] to talk about yourself but I'll give it a shot. I've been doing this online marketing stuff for … this dates me for about 15 years. I actually quit my job back in 2004 and I've been doing this stuff ever since. Like some I retired in between a couple businesses that we were doing for a couple years and RVed around the country and got bored of being retired so we got sucked back into the business again and it was an e-commerce this time and we started doing that a few years ago. It's been almost five years now and are on the road to build an eight figure business this year. We'll get to crack eight figures this year or next year and along the way we've been documenting all that on EcomCrew. So it's been a much different environment than what I was doing before which was affiliate marketing where everybody was really guarded; you never talked about anything you did because everyone was kind of a competitor and going after the same traffic. But in e-commerce, it's like this multi-trillion dollar industry and you're never going to be the one selling all the things in your niche. And one of the things that we do is coloring for adults and I always say like I'm never going to select all the gel pens in the world. So talking about what we do and being open about it I think has been cool and yeah it might create some competitors but if they can catch me I feel like it's my fault. It's kind of been my philosophy plus I'm just more secure about everything I do now that I'm a little bit older. And I look at the things that come out of it positively, which is getting to meet people like you which would never happen if it wasn't for EcomCrew and speaking and all these things. So and for the most part like 99% of what we do; helping other people doesn't adversely affect us and for the one [inaudible 00:08:41.9] that does you know so be it whatever. Joe: Well you just touched on it what you do believe and I'm … for people listening EcomCrew is just that. It's what we do at Quiet Light, it's helping other people. Help them first then things come back to you. And I've seen you do presentations on the adult coloring books and the email marketing behind it. I've listened to the EcomCrew podcast; I worked with Dave as you know as well. So I want to talk about both but let's just answer the simple question first about email marketing; you know I'm an old school direct marketer, I've been self-employed since 1997 believe it or not. Mike: Nice. Joe: It was radio direct marketing back then and then the next evolution at that point was email right? As old isn't email marketing dead, are you making any money with it? Mike: Yeah and it's a trick question right, or it's a blue question, it's a softball question. You know when I first got into doing email marketing for e-commerce I felt the same way and I had drug my feet forever and it's probably one of my bigger regrets in this business for a couple reasons. Number one, I think its human nature to approach stuff in life and in business the way that you think about it yourself. So for me, I flipping hate email. It's my biggest nemesis. I cannot get to Inbox 0 no matter how hard I try. It … I'm unsubscribing for more things than I'm subscribing to just to try to get email under control and I just viscerally have this negative hatred in reaction towards email. So you know I didn't want to get into emailing people because I … you know how I am I like to treat others like I like to be treated. So for me, that was the conflict more than anything. It's like I'm going to start emailing people and I wouldn't want to even receive these emails myself. So that was the basis for the whole thing to start with so I was slow at doing it. But listening to other people talk and going to other you know a lot of these conferences and you still hear email as a prevalent thing and it's important; you should be doing email etcetera etcetera. So eventually I started dipping my toes into it and what I realize now many years later first of all email is 52% of our revenue. I was just looking before doing this podcast; it's 52% of our revenue for ColorIt. So it's a massive amount of our business. But our open rates- Joe: That's 52% of nearly an eight figure business. Mike: So just to … yeah [inaudible 00:11:07.1] that's just on ColorIt.com so we also sell on Amazon and Amazon is two thirds of our business so … but it's two thirds of a million dollar business because ColorIt.com does about a million dollars a year. And as a business overall ColorIt is bigger than that because you add in the Amazon component. But yeah what we do on ColorIt.com like when it's our own website and we control all of our own destiny; email marketing is a mass sort of part of that and it has a massive halo effect that you can't directly determine. But it has a massive halo effect on our Amazon business as well. Because people are reading these emails and they eventually go buy on Amazon. We have a lot of data on this but you can't … it's not empirical, you can't tell definitively like exactly what's going on there. But I mean totally you can look at the numbers and say okay by doing these things over here that it's affecting the stuff over here. So it definitely makes a big difference. Joe: Yeah for sure and then we're going to talk about open rates there in the email before I interrupt. Mike: Yeah. So our open rates are close to 30% so they hover somewhere 28 to 32% depending on what stage we are on scrubbing or list. So one of the things that we work really hard on is email deliverability; making sure things end up in the primary inbox, not in spam; that we are providing value to people so they want to open our emails. So that's been a really big angle for us so we kind of use the 80-20 rule here where at least 80% of our emails are helpful and they're not hitchy in any way of what we're trying to sell you something. And it's really more like 90-10. The vast majority of what we send out is helpful tips and tricks or things you want to know. So for instance in the coloring space; how to blend your shade with colored pencils, how to blend with markers or something like that, how to sharpen your pencils. Here's a time lapse video of how to draw this particular drawing and here's a free copy of it. Here's some stuff from our community other people submitted you might want to like it out as well. We're doing a giveaway this month or fan of the month contest. All these types of things that add value and every now and then once every six weeks or so or eight weeks we're releasing a new product and that will be a part of the sequence. Or maybe there's a Mother's Day sale or the month it's going to be come up soon it'd be a 4th of July sale. But very few of our emails are in that realm and most of them are in here are some helpful tips and tricks. So let's apply that to something besides coloring let's like it like tactical.com, your emails will be 10 things to bring on your next hiking adventure, how to prepare for an emergency, things to put in your bug out bag, what to do when the lights go out; whatever the types of things that we're doing in tactical world. Things that are like truly helpful for people especially I mean right now we're getting into hurricane season so we're going to be releasing a lot of content about that. And you know the fact of the matter is that most people just aren't prepared. Like a hurricane comes or an earthquake, a tornado comes whatever and you have no food and water or a flashlight that are is or all dead whatever it might be. It's actually quite helpful to people to bring us the forefront of their mind even if you just think about it for a second you can actually help save someone's life in this case. So these are the types of things we'll provide and every now in that cycle he check out on your products this might help you as well. So the vast majority we do is trying to train people to want to open our emails, to kind of like … you know and humans are very habit forming creatures. It only takes a few times of doing something to make it a habit. So we try to make this a habit for them and that's our approach. Joe: Yeah it seems to have worked with your open rate which is pretty phenomenal. Let's back up a step, what email software are you using; what do you prefer? Mike: So we're using Klaviyo for almost everything at least in the e-commerce space. You know Klaviyo is just heads and tails above everything else when it comes to e-commerce. It has a direct integration with Shopify, you can build segments within Klaviyo, people that have done particular things and then generate emails based off of that. And probably the feature that it has that's most valuable is the ability to then take those segments and synchronize those segments with a Facebook audience and then you can … it can currently run Facebook Ads to that group of people which is highly effective. And the thing that really got me going with this was actually a really funny story because I had just got done presenting at E-commerce Fuel; I think you might have actually been there. I was talking about email marketing and I was like- Joe: That was Savannah? Mike: Yeah. I think it was in Savannah. And I was like gloating about email marketing and all these cool things that we're doing and at the time that I was really … all I really focused on was mostly email marketing. And what I had said there was at the time our open rates where between 20 and 25% which is still double industry average and we've since improved that. But I was really proud of that fact and someone came up to me after the show. A good friend of mine, Kevin Stucco and he was like well what about the 75% of people that aren't opening your email? And I was just like … it was an instant like aha moment. It kind of knocked me down a peg because I was like all … kind of like in that gloating mindset but it was actually a really good point. Even … you know I was looking at it from one perspective of we're double or more than double the industry average on open rates on email. But what he made me think about was what about all these people that aren't opening email. And one of the things that Klaviyo at the same time was coming out with was that synchronization feature. So we started getting really heavy into Facebook Ads. And what you can do is if for instance there's like someone … let's say your average order frequency is 80 days so what we do as a win back sequence at 90 days we offer them a coupon; the comeback as an email. Well, why not run an ad to them, a Facebook Ad at the same time and Klaviyo makes that really easy. So yeah there's going to be basically three things that can happen; either they're going to open your email, they're going to see your Facebook Ad, or they'll do both. Some people going to see both of your email and your Facebook Ad. But either way, throwing the Facebook stuff into it is a much more effective approach. So it's been really successful for us and now we have these Facebook Ads that run 100 or 1500 to 2000% return on Ad Spend. Joe: Wow. Mike: But the most effective ads that we run are- Joe: It's incredible. Mike: Yeah. Because if you think about it I mean it's a super small audience, we're putting a really small budget together and these are like highly primed people. These are someone that's already bought from us. They kind of maybe forgot about us, you send and ad to them 10% off of course they're much more likely to convert than someone that's called traffic. It's way … this is what people forget about in e-commerce; it's way easier to sell someone something the second time than the first time. But the problem is that we all get our high off of getting new customers so that's what we always focus on is those angles. But what really brings the profitability to e-commerce is nurturing the existing customer. Joe: Lifetime value of a customer. Mike: Yeah. Joe: Repeat customer acquisition all that good stuff. So Klaviyo is the software of choice. Your emails separate yourself out from the mass emails that we get just by being as helpful as possible. So you don't wind up in the unsubscribe section and then combine and sync with Facebook which is great to go back out to those folks. On the emails themselves, how many are you sending on a day or week or things of that nature, and do you have any concerns about people opting out and do you make it easy enough for them to unsubscribe? Mike: Yeah. So we were sending millions of emails a month now literally; the number is actually crazy. We were just looking at our Klaviyo account the other day and it shows you the number of emails you've sent out. And in this particular account we're looking at it was actually just yesterday and it was 200,000 emails we had sent out and we were just like four days into the billing cycle. And I was like uh-oh like oh excuse me something might be wrong with … I think they were sending like … maybe people are getting two emails of the same thing or something. We kind of dug into it for a few minutes and realized just like the actual frequency, the number of emails we're sending is like in the millions a month now and it's actually accurate. And that's what we want to be happening it's just that we didn't quite have our … even have our heads around it. Joe: At the millions a month, how many is one individual getting? Mike: It really depends. It depends on how they came in to our system and what part of the sequences that they're in. There are some situations where someone might get an email from us literally every single day. So if they are coming in to one of this new lead magnet flows that we have which is basically I call this this the trifecta; this might be like a little bit of a version of what we're talking about today because we're talking about email but just as a real quick side note the trifecta to me as a marketer is getting them on a Facebook Messenger list, getting them Pixeled so I can also have their Pixel data, and getting their email address. So to me like- Joe: What's the Pixel part? Mike: So the Pixel part is just it when someone visits your website that's a piece of code that you have on your website that the Facebook Pixel or the Google Pixel and by having this script on your website you now know that someone has visited you and you know that they visit a particular pages or that they took particular actions. You don't know individually who they are like I don't know that Joe Valley visited my website today but I … you are in a bucket that I can say like I want to know all the people that did X, Y, and Z and you'll be in the bucket and I can then advertise to you in a particular way by being in that bucket. So what we do for Facebook campaigns or most of our campaigns is this whole … again the provide value first angle. So we'll offer people something for free whether it's free downloadable content, free drawings, a lead magnet whatever might be or offer them a free plus shipping off or maybe … so we start with these really compelling low friction offers and then send them to a Facebook Messenger flow. Which is basically are you definitely interested in this; yes or no. If they say yes we give them a link to a page and when they get to that page they're now Pixeled. So we have them on our Facebook Messenger list I can market to them that way. I have them Pixeled so I can remarket to them that way. And then that landing page will have a spot to give us their email address and I can market to them that way. And when they come through one of these flows for free downloads let's say we don't just give them all the free downloads in one day. We give them an email every single day for 30 to 45 days. It's actually a very long sequence where … so it's a 20 free download program or promotion I would say. And so we're giving them a download every other day and in between that we're giving them some other value. So and we tell them we're going to send you 20 free downloads, you're going to get one every other day. We don't tell them they are going to get another email every other day in between but they still open those as well. Joe: Yeah. Mike: And those other emails are still value, it's the how to blend or shade kind of emails or things like that, here are some stuff from our community and in it dispersed within there is here's a coupon for the book that you were just downloading these drawings from and things like that. So in that circumstance, their getting emailed incredibly frequently but the baseline minimum that people are getting email from our company is six times a month. That's the absolute minimum, someone, what would get. Joe: And that's fine. I've seen people … I've seen your presentation and I've heard people say man that's a lot of emails but if they don't want then they opt out. Mike: Yeah so- Joe: And your open rates- Mike: Exactly let me let me hit on that just real quick because it's a really important point. Again treating people like I'd like to be treated; I don't … if I don't want the email like I want to be able to number one at least [inaudible 00:22:39.8] easily unsubscribe so we make that easy for people. And I want them to be able to easily unsubscribe. What people … the shady email marketers don't get is you're actually hurting yourself more by trying to jam it down their throat because you want the open rates to be high. And Google and Hotmail and Yahoo all the different email platforms look at your stats of your open rates just like Google is looking at click to rates in inorganic search. And if your open rates are high, way higher than average; they're gonna say though this is content that people probably want we're going to put this in the main inbox. If you dip below a certain point you'll end up in the in the promotions tab, if you dip below even a certain point from that you'll end up in spam. And there's like no way to get yourself out of there. So we want to keep our open rates as high as possible probably for our own best interest right? So it's- Joe: Yeah. Mike: We make it easy to unsubscribe and if you don't open one of our emails for 13 weeks we unsubscribe you for yourself. So we figure after 13 weeks you know which is going to be probably something that range of 20 emails that we've sent out if you haven't opened one of those emails in that longer a time period you're probably just done with us and we'll just stop emailing you. And in that way … that's one of the reasons why our open rates continue to be as high as they are and we keep on adding our net gain every month is way higher than our unsubscribes or people we're removing. We've got something like 60,000 active emails on ColorIt where you know some people might look at that list and they would say it's 200,000 or something because we're not constantly scrubbing it. Our emails are active; these are 60,000 people that are actively open … we have 60,000 people that have opened at least one of our emails in the last quarter which is a much better stat in my mind than looking at the total number of people we've ever signed up. Joe: I totally agree. We're constantly asking that question in our client interviews and trying to drill down into the relative usefulness of those total emails. Yeah for those that are listening can you touch on, I mean it's probably overwhelming for both buyers and sellers that are listening in terms of if they've never done email marketing if they don't know how to do any Facebook marketing. I want to ask a question; let me first touch on the fact that for those that are not doing these now, for those that are getting revenue from one channel your business is going to be 20 to 30% less valuable than one from multiple channels and you also … and that's because of the risk. You're at a greater risk of a catastrophe if you're 100% Amazon business or 100% email marketing business, or 100% Facebook. You want to spread out and do all of them and have more sort of legs on the stool to balance out the business. Buyers will love that. They'll pay more for it. Mike: Yeah. Joe: And figure how to do it so what kind of training would you recommend for anybody looking to learn Klaviyo, anybody learning Facebook marketing? Mike: I mean we obviously do ourselves some I mean that's a kind of a loaded question but- Joe: It's funny, wasn't actually for people listening it wasn't a loaded question because I didn't know that. I know that you're doing … I know I've listened to EcomCrew you know I know Dave well, I know you well know and I love your Under the Hood sessions and I didn't really hear that you're actually doing the training sessions on Klaviyo and email marketing so let's … on Facebook so let's move to that. Let's talk- Mike: So we have a new thing called the EcomCrew Premium and what we were doing is like releasing a course every couple of months and charging 500 to 1,000 dollars per course depending on what the course was on. We did one on importing from China. Then we did another one on how to launch products on Amazon the white hat way without doing any black hat tactics. And as we kept on releasing courses we were getting emails of people just like this is getting expensive. It's like our core fans are like they're just buying everything we do, it was getting expensive and I also felt like starting to feel like a kind of a used car salesman in some respect because you're just constantly trying to sell them something different every couple of months. So we just said you know what like … because you know how Dave and I are like and we just we're not like that so- Joe: [inaudible 00:26:36.0] Mike: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Joe: [inaudible 00:26:38.4] Mike: Okay well that makes more sense though he is Canadian so like by default he's just like already 40% nicer. Joe: It's it. Mike: Yes so we came up with this subscription model which is you just pay once a month, then you get access to everything that we've already done; everything that we're going to do in the future. And it includes webinars twice a month and the training we're about to release depending on this podcast will be released. The next one we're doing is on Facebook Messenger and we actually have a webinar later today as recording this on that topic as well. So we give those webinars to our EcomCrew Premium members as well. So we're constantly talking about this stuff and whatever's going on more current. The Klaviyo we don't actually have a course on yet I mean that was something that I learned on my own. I'm not really sure if there's one out there. We are going to be doing one on that but as a part of our subscription model, you also get access to us to ask questions so you can just email questions if you're having a hard time with Klaviyo as if for instance we would just help you with that as well. It's any type of e-commerce stuff we would help with. But Klaviyo is simple and it's complicated at the same time. Like I can understand why it would be overwhelming. I'm kind of a tech guy so I naturally kind of gravitate towards the stuff and figure it out. When I realize when it's complicated is when we hire a new employee and I had to explain to them how to do it and I see their eyes kind of glaze over. It's like I'm trying to explain the difference between a segment and a list or a flow and a campaign or how to synchronize something to Facebook and they're just like … you've been kind of giving that look and I … and then I understand that some things come harder to certain people. It'd be the same look I would give somebody if you asked me to do rock climbing or something. I'd be like yeah that's not going to happen. I'm not going to be able to do that. So yeah I don't know besides just Klaviyo's own website for that like what the best way to go about that is. Joe: So yeah you sell a very visual product you know with ColorIt and the tactical gear stuff you know common sense makes sense, between your connections with the EcomCrew and the Under the Hood Segments what's the strangest … I don't want to say, I don't want to call somebody's product or service strange but the thing that you would think would not necessarily work via email marketing that or Facebook that they get a shot and actually made a difference in their business. Mike: Yeah I mean let me start by saying give you like a whole another kind of answer to this real quick. What I always say when I when I speak at events or do these podcasts, whenever wherever I'm talking about and this comes up, one of the things that drives me crazy I mean you're in the same industry I'm in there is a lot of people out there that are like follow my secret 10 step plan, do these exact things and sprinkle this special dust in your business and you'll be a millionaire overnight. Those ads are on our Facebook feed like nonstop. We also go to events where some of these people speak and it drives me nuts. So I'm always cautious and tell people look like you have to use … you know your business better than anyone else and there's like all these variables that kind of go into it. You have a different margin than I might have or maybe there's a Facebook audience site that directly matches up with what you're doing. Maybe you have the ability to get user generated content really easily or you can make a lead magnet or a free plus shipping offer. If you have a lot of repeat business opportunity maybe you don't like I mean … so I try to talk about all these different types of businesses that we've been involved in and how we've approached it. And the thing that's cool about us now is we have four brands. We're doing things in coloring and hot and cold therapy we have a baby brand and we have a tactical brand. I'm gonna start talking a lot more about like our different approach for each brand but what your … the question you're asking is and I think that the answer to it really is that every business is unique. You have to follow maybe a basic outline of what people … like I'm doing with email marketing, here is like the different approaches we've taken with our different niches but you know it's hard to just say like do these exact 10 things. I mean there's a couple of things you want to do by default with email. You want to definitely have like an abandoned card sequence; that applies to everybody. You want to have a win back campaign; that applies to everybody. But what doesn't apply to everybody is 20 free downloadable coloring pages. That doesn't make sense for anybody else except for us. Joe: Right. Mike: Or like here's how to prepare for an emergency that probably doesn't apply to most businesses. You have to think out of the box and more importantly than anything is try a bunch of different concepts and don't be afraid to fail. This is where I think people get hung up like the human nature which I'm different in this regard for whatever reason. I'm wired differently. I just don't care about embarrassing myself or doing something that doesn't work. So you know I'll try 10 or 20 different things until I find the one that resonates and gives some traction where you know somebody else might try something once or twice and just give up. You have to keep on trying different concepts until you find the one that really seems to resonate and then with something in the world of Facebook when you find the thing that resonates or in email marketing it really seems to work. You'll get stats that are completely different than what you've done to that point. I mean 10 times better, 20 times better and you'll kind of hit that thing that kind of … that really works and I'm hoping that kind of answers the question. I mean I'm always reluctant to talk about other people's business specifically that we've run into at EcomCrew because I'm always pretty protective of the things that they're doing. Joe: Yeah. Mike: I never want to break anyone's confidence but I think that that is probably the best approach. And one last thing that I'll mention is when we got started in e-commerce with treadmill.com and I always talk about this. So it's like that's the most different thing that we've done compared to the other things that we're doing now. The approach there would be way different than selling something like a coloring book because you're only going to sell someone one treadmill. You've got no chance at a second sale. In fact, you just hope that they don't return it because it turns out to be like the most expensive clothes rack they ever bought right? Joe: Exactly. That's right. Mike: So I mean you have to take a different approach with that. And it's a much longer term sale cycle that you're not going to spontaneously sell somebody a 2,000 dollar treadmill. This is sort of like well long thought out, multi-year struggle with weight or whatever it might be that drives them to buying this treadmill, much different way to approach it so you've got to take a different approach there than selling somebody a sort of coloring pens or something. Because like yeah you can put an ad up, they're 30 bucks. Someone won't think twice about buying that and it can be a very spontaneous purchase versus the other way around. So you got the like … it's kind of like what you do, I mean people … like it's a very long sell cycle when you are trying to get someone to sell their business or purchase a business. That doesn't spontaneously just happen. So you're having to take a different approach with your email and your marketing than someone else that's actually selling widgets that are something that people just want to buy like that so- Joe: And it's interesting; it's the exact same approach you take in email marketing which is help as many people as you can. Be [inaudible 00:33:45.2] as you can and it generally is it's the right way to do it number one. But it generally works. You build relationships with either customers or clients like you sell from whatnot that they come around and work well. Mike: [inaudible 00:33:57.3] that works pretty well in life too by the way. Joe: That is [inaudible 00:34:00.6] life lessons from Mike Jackness. Mike: Yeah. Joe: We're running short on time but I want to talk about just EcomCrew briefly. I want people to now how to listen in because if you're in the e-commerce world you got to listen to Mike and Dave on EcomCrew because all they do is help people. Talk about that for just a minute; when did you start it, how do they download, listen to it, that kind of thing. Mike: We started it I guess it's been three years ago, three or four years ago. It's kind of hard to … I lose track of time. And we're out at Episode 150 something on the podcast as of recording this. My favorite episode we ever did was Episode 88 though, which was the Joe Valley EcomCrew podcast so- Joe: [inaudible 00:34:37.6] we talked today. Mike: I did. I just I was just looking on this great. But it's been a weekly podcast and we've now gone to twice a week. So twice a week we are talking about e-commerce stuff because between Dave and I we have plenty of things to talk about. We might even go to three times a week I just don't know if I have the time to do it. But as you're growing a business with the speed that we are there's plenty of talk about and I love talking about it because it produces a lot of cool stuff. I mean like I said it helps me meet people like you know but it also … it's really embarrassing to have to get on a podcast and start like you were … because I talk about my goals and the things that we're like looking to do. When you have to get on the podcast and say like I didn't get this done it's like there's nothing better than peer review and peer pressure. So I keep on pushing it till I get stuff done. So it's been very helpful for me as well. So yeah there's the podcast component so on iTunes E-C-O-M-C-R-E-W but we also have a blog which Dave does almost all of that content, EcomCrew.com all of that stuff is free. We even have actually a free … three free courses under the My Ecom Career Area none of that requires giving us a penny. It's just kind of us giving back. And you know I hope our long term strategy just like you is if we help people in they get an affinity towards the things that we're telling them and teaching that eventually they would want to become a premium member. But even if they don't like you were pretty financially secure and happy with what we're doing and all the other stuff is free. So definitely come check us out. Joe: It's awesome. Thanks Mike. I appreciate it. Anybody listening I would highly highly recommend you go to EcomCrew and check it out, download, listen to the podcast; definitely Episode number 88. Mike: Best episode ever. Joe: Ever. Mike: It actually was one of our best or highly rated episodes. And people are always interested in buying and selling their business. I mean it's something you should always be thinking about it's just I think people often wait too long to be thinking about these things and- Joe: Nine times out of 10. Mike: Yeah. Joe: Planning in advance should be probably number five. Mark doesn't like it but plan in advance you're going to understand the valuations and you do things like we talked about today which is [inaudible 00:36:41.1] email marketing and you'll [inaudible 00:36:43.6] business and get high value profit so [inaudible 00:36:46.6]. I appreciate your time today Mike I know you're a busy guy. Mike: No problem, thanks. Links: Ecomcrew.com EcomCrew Premium Episode 88 Klaviyo.com Klaviyo Facebook Snyc

Joe Schramm, Vice President of Strategic Alliances at BeyondTrust, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss refining your focus on specific partners, channel growing pains, understanding the win for your partner and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi, everybody, welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I'm joined by Joe Schramm who is Vice President of Strategic Alliances at BeyondTrust. Welcome, Joe.   Joe: Thanks, Jen. Good to be here.   Jen: I'm glad to have you. I think the best way for us to get started first of all is maybe if you can tell us a little bit about BeyondTrust and your organization.   Joe: Sure, sure. So BeyondTrust is in a segment of cyber security focused on privilege access management. We're also in another segment called vulnerability management. Both segments are pretty well defined in the cyber security landscape, but I would say that privilege access management is probably growing at a higher rate, and that's where we're seeing, a lot of our new product growth, net new logo acquisitions, and so forth. So we're very much focused in the cyber security domain, and it's a very hot market. It's something that we're doing really well in and are very happy to be participating in.   Jen: You have a history of working in business development, strategic alliance roles at very high-tech companies in security. And, I don't know if you have a byte of information or a hard and fast rule, something that you've really taken with you as you've gone from one organization to another to really help grow your channel program at BeyondTrust. How do you help it really run smoothly?   Joe: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think probably my favorite hard rule that I like to live by I learned some time ago now...this goes back several years and a few different organizations ago. But really, my favorite thing to think about and to focus on is what I call “partner profiling”. So a lot of organizations, when they start to build their partner program, they tend to gravitate towards easy wins, meaning if a partner came to you and said, "Hey, I'm interested in working with you," you'd rush to sign them up without really stepping back and understanding, "Are they the right partner for us, right, based on the type of company we are and the products we sell and how we sell them?"   So partner profiling, for me, is one of those almost religious experiences where I sit down and set out to really define the top three or so attributes and partners that we want to proactively engage and recruit and bring into our partner program. And it's easy to get this wrong, right? A lot of organizations, like I said, will gravitate towards easy picking, sign up lots of partners without stepping back and understanding, "Are those partners really aligned to your market? Are they in business for a sustained period of time?" To me, that's an important attribute is length in the market.   If an organization has been around 10, 20, 30 years, it's a very good leading indicator that they've got a big customer base and that they've had to reinvent themselves along the way a couple of times, and pivot as technology changes and continue to sustain and grow their business. That's an important attribute. And then certainly, things like a good go-to market capability, so having sales people, having pre-sales people, having perhaps delivery capability or at least very good technical competence within your domain.   So profiling and identifying what those key criteria are is really, really important. And then making sure that as you engage and as you seek out partners that the ones you're engaging with proactively, even the ones that you're reacting to based on inbound interest, you're qualifying them against those criteria pretty firmly to ensure that your chances of success, once they're up and running, is going to be a lot higher.   Jen: I think that's such great advice, and it should really resonate with a lot of folks who are focused on this account-based movement right now that's happening on the direct part of business because that's what we do, right? That's what we do with an account-based strategy is we identify who's a good target for us looking at those profiles. And, I know it can be challenging when you're building a partner program and you've got that inbound interest in joining your program. It almost like reminds me of if you've got someone volunteering their services, right, they are volunteering to sell for you or sell on your behalf, and you've got to say no to them sometimes. So it could be really hard to do, for sure.   Joe: Yeah. It takes some practice, for sure.   Jen: Yeah. Now, you have launched several key initiatives really to grow the channel at BeyondTrust. Can you share a little bit about the areas that you focused on so far in the organization?   Joe: Sure. I'll touch on maybe a top three that I would want to share here in the context of this discussion. So the first one is that we decided to embark on a global distribution strategy for our company. If you look at the way we were organized from a distribution perspective, it was very localized, so specific countries. For example, in the U.S., we had a distributor. In Canada, we had a different distributor. Throughout Europe, we had many different distributors, throughout Asia Pacific, many different distributors. And what we found was that there was a lot of inefficiencies, a lot of inconsistencies with that model.   Furthermore, we found that not all those distributors were doing much more for us than facilitating transactions, which is important, right? You need to have an ability to transact business. You need access to different kinds of resellers that distributors oftentimes have access to. And you obviously need access to certain kinds of procurement vehicles, which again, distributors often have access to either directly or through their network of resellers, so state and local contracts, for example, GSAs, too, and the federal site to name a couple.   So it's really important that you have some measure of a strategy there. But what we did was we set about to consolidate our distribution strategy and align ourselves to a distributor that we felt was very focused on the security domain, which is what we participate in, and also one that we felt could help us scale the business and generate net new opportunities through their network of resellers.   And so we decided to join a program that Westcon-Comstor offers called Accelerate. And it's a very selective program. We're one of like, I think, five or six different vendors that belong in that program, and that's really the extent of it. This gives us a lot of focus with Wescon, gives us an ability to wide up each region in a sequence. So we're very active with them in AsiaPac. We are now writing up North America and Latin America. In Europe, we'll be coming online later this year, in fact in Q2.   So it's provided us with a nice way to rationalize, streamline, drive more efficiency, drive more consistency with our distribution business, have one, well, not one entirely because we do have a couple of distributors that we're maintaining, but it helped us rationalize and reduce the number of distributors that we've had on a global basis. That's one initiative that we embarked on.   Another one that we embarked on last year was our Technology Alliance Program. So we wanted to have an opportunity to provide our technologies, provide our open APIs to potential technology partners as well as potential consulting partners who would want to or need to develop custom integration in their product or on behalf of our customers. We launched the Technology Alliance Program last year, and that's been great. We signed a couple of very strategic technology relationships through that technology program, SalePoint, McAfee being a couple in particular.   But we also have some others now coming to us and saying, "Hey, we want to build an integration to this product, to that product." We can do that very easily now. We can provision not-for-resale software. We can provide them with the APIs. We can provide them with some simple instructions on how to leverage them. And we're finding that some of these partners that are coming to us are now able to build these integrations very quickly.   And the third area that I would highlight is that one of the things that I thought was missing for the company when I joined really late 2015 or early 2016 timeframe, was that we didn't have a partner strategy centered around consulting partners and system integrators. We had been talking to a few and have been having some conversations with some. But I saw that as really a missed opportunity to align ourselves to some very well positioned, very focused consulting organizations that are really centered on the identity access and privilege access domains in particular, and for us to align ourselves with them to create new opportunities for us and for our salespeople, as well as scale our delivery service capability.   So as we're growing, one of our constraints or one of our challenges has been keeping up with demand for consulting services to implement our technologies. And so we aggressively recruited and onboarded about a half dozen or so boutique consultancies last year, and that's paying off for us really well. They're getting certified and getting consultants out there in the market who can implement our products and create bench strength and scale for us on the delivery side. And just as importantly, they are also identifying net new opportunities for our technologies with their clients that we didn't know about previously. So that's creating some net new business for us through that effort as well. Those are the three things that I'd call out.   Jen: You've been busy. That's quite an undertaking in a fairly short period of time, which is really commendable. I want to dig into some of the results that you've been able to see. You shared with me previously kind of what happened in one year. Your channel business is up 100% year over year. Business through the channel has grown from 15% of the business to between 25% and 30%. I mean, is this the result of those initiatives? And also, is there anything else, any other great results that you've seen because of work that you've done in 2016?   Joe: Yeah, I think there's a couple of forces in play here, right? One is that we're in a high growth market, right? Our market segment's growing at over 30% per year. And so there's always going to be organic growth with what you've been doing. So that's definitely attributable to some of the growth. But I think moreover and more importantly is that we've really aligned ourselves to not only the right partners that can help us, but we've also really narrowed our focus down.   So when I joined the company, we literally had hundreds of resellers in our system, and I couldn't get my head wrapped around how we had so many. And then of course, you look back at the history of our company, and for a long time, we were a growth-by-acquisition company and we came together as BeyondTrust four or five years ago through the acquisition of four or five different companies. And with each acquisition, it brings a different partner base with it, right? And we never really rationalized that partner base.   So this year, actually, last year, we started this process and we're going to continue to do it this year, but we've really started to refine our focus on the partners that we really want to proactively manage. That's not to say that we won't work on an opportunistic basis with any partner, but what we're doing with those other partners, what I call the tier-two partners, is we're rolling them underneath Westcon to help us manage and grow those partners so that we can take my direct team, right, the alliances people that we have on the team and have them spending the bulk of their time really building business with the core set of partners that we want to focus on.   So I think those are a couple of contributing factors that have really played a role in our success and the growth that we've achieved. We expect this year to again significantly grow the channel business. So we're excited about the prospects, excited about the opportunities. I think we've got many of the key things in place to enable that growth, and it's really just going to be a question of our ability to execute.   Jen: That's awesome. Anytime an organization grows, and especially when you're in channel and you grow so exponentially, it's exciting and it's amazing, it's great from a revenue perspective. It can also be a little bit painful. Just there's challenges anytime that you do grow. I'm wondering, could you share maybe some of the challenges that you faced or maybe some challenges that you're anticipating and how you're going to mitigate those?   Joe: Yeah. So there's always challenges as you highlighted when you are growing, and these challenges that are good problems to have. And I like what our CEO says. He says, "We don't run away from problems or challenges, we run towards them," right? And so that's the attitude of our company, which I love and I embrace that philosophy. Every time he says that, I kind of smile because that's kind of how I operate. I want to attack things and get after it, right?   But that being said, yeah, there's certainly growth pains. Now, there's a couple things that we did early last year in anticipation of the growth that we were expecting and wanting to drive, right? One was we needed to launch a partner portal. We had a large number of partners, some of whom were very active with us, some of whom were occasionally active with us. But we did not have a good vehicle for disseminating content, and for addressing the educational needs and the content needs of both our sales folks that work for the partners, as well as the technical folks that work for the partners.   And so we stood up our partner portal last year, which has been very widely adopted, and I would say it allowed us to centralize a number of the processes, chief among them, our deal registration process. So that's been fantastic. And that's a key metric that we want to measure as you get your registration volume year over year, and even at a granular level by partner or region or what have you. We can measure how that's building. It's an important leading indicator as to what's going to come out the back end of the funnel, one, or two, or three, four quarters later, right? So that's been great.   And I think that the usability of the portal and the intuitive nature of the portal has been great. We see very sticky behavior, very good evidence that a lot of our partners referenced the portal. They referenced it frequently and not just to do deal registration. We obviously can report and track on what artifacts they're accessing, how frequently those pieces of content are being accessed. We can look at that and kind of analyze, what's valuable, what's sticky, what's being consumed the most. And so all that's really, really important for us. And so that's been great.   Another challenge that we've had to deal with has been training this new class of partners that I spoke of, right, the consultants and the systems integrators. Having training in education capabilities, certification capabilities was a really important driver to help us scale. And we launched our BeyondTrust University early last year as well. And that, too, has been extremely well received. We probably have over 500 partner individuals across the globe that are engaged in BeyondTrust University either from a sales enablement, pre-sales enablement, or technical consulting enablement perspective. And we're now starting to turn out certified consultants who can actually help scale on the delivery side.   So those are a couple of highlights and things that we've had to overcome. And we're not done yet. We're never, I think, fully satisfied. We can always do more. But, those were a couple of really important foundational components that we needed to get in place to help scale.   Jen: Well, with all of those individual partner users, you were talking about those partner entities, you weren't talking about the companies, right? You're talking about actual individual people who are engaging with that content or who are phase two, your end customer. You've got all those folks. You've got over 4,000 organizations as customers. You've got half of the Fortune 100. I mean, I'm just baffled. Like how are you able to dedicate time to your individual partner entities? I know tiering's got to be a big part of that, not just the segmentation of types of partners but also tiering within. Is that something that you guys are doing as well?   Joe: Yeah, yeah. We did that last year for North America. We just completed our first pass of it for Europe, and we're in the process of doing it now for Latin America. And I think AsiaPac is a little different for us. We've kind of been working through a two-tier distribution model in AsiaPac from earlier points in our history and so there is less rationalization needed there, I believe.   But certainly, if I take North America for an example, we looked at the entire pool of literally over 300 reseller accounts that we had in our CRM system and we started winnowing that down and looking at it different ways. We said, "Okay, over the last two years, how much new business has been booked by each of those partners," right? And obviously, you typically see a 80/20 kind of formation there, where 80% of the revenue comes from the top 20% of the resellers. And we quickly realized that we've got literally hundreds in our system who haven't done any business with us over the last two or three years.   We also looked at how much renewal business is being handled by that pool of resellers, and we found that there is some that do a large number of renewals for us but there's an awful lot of onesie-twosies out there, right? Literally, we have a reseller that handles a couple of renewals for us a year, and that's the extent of it. So we value that. We don't want to just throw that out the window, but we look at the volume of it and we look at the alignment to the partner profile that I spoke of at the top and say, "All right, who are the top 12 that we want to focus on, or the top 15," and really zero in on those resellers and say, "Okay, how do we sit down and build a business plan that's meaningful for both companies?"   And for us, we're kind of looking for anywhere from half a million in net new product license bookings or more from those kinds of partners, and whether they've done that historically or not may not necessarily be the critical decision factor. Maybe a partner has only done 250,000 with us but they've only been working with us for six months and we believe that they've got the right DNA, the right profile to really take that up to the right level.   So that's kind of how we've done some tiering here in North America. And I'd say that we're really focused on probably the top 10 or so resellers, and then there's a cadre of consulting partners maybe 15 or 20 in total that we're either on board with or working with in some capacity to try to figure out whether they belong in that bucket or not. But taking it from literally 300 down to 15, 20 is a much more manageable number, and we believe that by providing that focus that we're going to see more benefits coming out of those relationships.   Jen: Thanks for sharing that. I think it's really, really helpful to a lot of people who are in a similar situation that you're in. And on that note, the last question I really want to ask you is if you have any sort of concise piece of advice that you can give fellow business development professionals who might be in a situation similar to the one that you embarked upon when you joined BeyondTrust, any words of wisdom that you can share?   Joe: Yeah, I'd piggyback on the first point about the partner profiling, and say that it's really important that you understand what your targets looks like. And then the second thing, which is really important, once you start getting into discussions and conversations with potential partners, you really need to understand what the win is for the partner. And it kind of amazes me that a lot of times, people don't step back and ask that question or even understand that and they may assume that, "Oh, these guys are VAR, therefore, they're only interested in margin on the sale of products."   Well, the landscape is changing out there, right? I don't really believe that organizations that may have historically survived and thrived on just being product-resale companies are going to survive, right? We're seeing a lot of evidence that traditional resellers are morphing into what I call a solution provider, and they're trying to solve problems for clients that includes products, that includes services, and it may include managed services.   So the landscape is shifting a little bit, but the point being is that it's really important for you to understand what the win is based on the partner you're talking to. And, one partner may say, "Hey, I'm only interested in selling product." Fine. Another partner may say, "Well, we do some product resale but we're really in the consulting business." Or it might be obvious from the onset that they're in the consulting business but, they like referral margins on the back end of deals, too, right? So trying to be flexible, trying to frame and understand the win for the partner is equally as important as understanding what the win is for you. So that's my piece of advice.   Jen: I think that's great advice. We can always be better listeners. Really listen to what our partners need and what's going to make them successful. That's fantastic. You know, Joe, before I let you go, before we totally sign off here, I always put people through a little bit of like a fun personal speed round, so ask some questions that kind of dig in a little bit, get to know you as a person a little bit more. Are you up for it?   Joe: Yeah, sure, why not. Sounds like fun.   Jen: All right, all right. So easy questions. First one is what is your favorite city?   Joe: My favorite city, oh, that's a good one because I've been to so many great cities. Honestly, my heart belongs to New York.   Jen: Good. What do you love most about New York?   Joe: I grew up in the New York area and I've always loved it. It's a city that, honestly, you can pretty much do anything within the bounds of law, of course.   Jen: Right, right.   Joe: Do anything, see anything, experience, any kind of entertainment, any kind of cuisine. It's just an amazing city to me. I've always loved it. But I've got to tell you, I do love London and I love Tokyo. I got to Tokyo last year and I am absolutely amazed by Tokyo and I'm dying to go back. I was only there for two days, and if I can figure out how to go back for 10 days, I think that'd be like my first choice. And I may come back with a different opinion about what my absolute favorite city is after some real time in Tokyo I think.   Jen: That's a really long way to travel for two days. Wow, wow. You need to go back.   Joe: It was a total of a 10-day trip in Asia but we only had 2 days in Tokyo.   Jen: Yeah, okay. That makes more sense. Okay, second question, are you an animal lover?   Joe: Oh, yeah, definitely.   Jen: Yeah. Do you have any pets?   Joe: We've had some pets from time to time, cats, hamsters, fish those sorts of things. I'm an absolute dog lover. But here's the thing, I travel so much and my kids are getting older and heading off to college. And, it's always been one of those things that we'd love to do, but at the same time, we've always felt that owning a dog would be unfair to the dog because you need to be around to spend the right time with them and treat them like any other family member quite frankly.   Jen: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Okay, next question, Mac or PC?   Joe: Oh, gosh. If I ever had the choice of having a Mac for a work tool, I would say Mac. But I never seem to get that choice so I have to go with PC. I'm using a Microsoft Surface and I actually love it. It's great, very lightweight, very reliable. And you can use it as a tablet as well, so it's got some nice flexibility.   Jen: Yeah, everyone who I meet who has one absolutely loves it, so that's great. My last question for you is let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses-paid trip, where would it be to?   Joe: It would probably be Italy, and I'd have to say Tuscany in particular. For me, Tuscany is kind of the perfect balance between my need to see things and do things, but you can kind of find the peace and tranquility to relax when it's time to do that, too. It also has that phenomenal food and wine aspect to it that I love. So Tuscany, I'd take it any day.   Jen: Wonderful. Sounds lovely. I was picturing myself being there as you were talking about it with a glass of wine, of course. So thank you. Thanks so much for sharing your time with me, with us today, Joe. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to connect with you?   Joe: Find me on LinkedIn. It's Joseph Schramm, S-C-H-R-A-M-M. Easiest way to find me. There's not too many of me out there that I'm aware of at BeyondTrust. So yeah, I would welcome the opportunity to chat with anybody or kick any of this stuff around. It's good fun. I'm passionate about it. I enjoy it and would welcome the opportunity to talk to people.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, again, thank you so much. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. And thanks everyone else for tuning in, and join us next week for an all-new episode.   Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone.

AFTS Cast: Mickie, JJ, Kurt, Chris, and Joe Thanks for joining us in The Shed as we start a short series of a new adventure, run by Kurt!  Mickie, JJ, Chris, and Joe suit up as an elite task force in this modern-day espionage game.  Kurt gives us the information to get us on our … Continue reading AFTS-KG-Ep1 – Drop a Bang →

In This Epiode: Turning Japanese...no not really just 29 Being a difficult person *yawns* Birthday bullshit but that kind of goes back to being a difficult person DareDevil Show on Netflix (it's short Joe) Thanks for listening Keeping it real in the world of pod Contact Me: Facebook - /JustZachPod Twitter @JustZachPod zach (at) blodpods.com www.twitter.com/justzachpod www.facebook.com/justzachpod Links of podcasts and such to check out: Podblocked Down The Bunny Hole Tangent-Bound Podcast