Podcast appearances and mentions of Harsh Mistress

I overlooked getting this one posted here, so it's out of order. My apologies!Join Jim on a thrilling journey through the most iconic and influential science fiction and fantasy of the 1960s! From groundbreaking novels to works from established favorite authors, we'll explore the most beloved and enduring works of the decade that shaped the genre. From Heinlein to Clarke, LeGuin to Zelazny, we'll divine which novels rose to the top in each year of the decade through sales, awards, and reviews. So, buckle up and get ready to blast off into the fabulous world of 1960s science fiction and fantasy!#FantasyForTheAges #ReadingRecommendations #Classics #ClassicLiterature #HugoAwards #SciFi #ScienceFiction #Fantasy #FantasyFiction #SSF #BestBooks #Top3 #Top10 #booktube #booktuberWant to purchase books/media mentioned in this episode?2001: A Space Odyssey: https://t.ly/t3_m_Babel-17: https://t.ly/5Lu6xThe Ballad of Beta-2: https://t.ly/Fx0X6A Canticle for Leibowitz: https://t.ly/Nbd8gDo Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?: https://t.ly/KYKbnDorsai: https://t.ly/lqBeFDr. Bloodmoney, or How We Got Along After the Bomb: https://t.ly/t5opnThe Drowned World: https://t.ly/2QjIjDune: https://t.ly/4_w_kThe Einstein Intersection: https://t.ly/LNmEeA Fall of Moondust: https://t.ly/kro3SFarnham's Freehold: https://t.ly/PobXpFlowers for Algernon: https://t.ly/cOenOGlory Road: https://t.ly/jKIDrGraybeard: https://t.ly/PkFXQThe Left Hand of Darkness: https://t.ly/avJCxLord of Light: https://t.ly/ql0kmThe Man in the High Castle: https://t.ly/wVUUmThe Moon Is a Harsh Mistress: https://t.ly/621IcPlanet of the Apes: https://t.ly/aNdi3Slaughterhouse-Five: https://t.ly/7BINKSolaris: https://t.ly/Jth3pStranger in a Strange Land: https://t.ly/gXvOpStarship Troopers: https://t.ly/dsq75The Wanderer: https://t.ly/0v1eWWay Station: https://t.ly/Z5DumA Wizard of Earthsea: https://t.ly/KMQT4A Wrinkle in Time: https://t.ly/cAK14Ways to connect with us:Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/FantasyForTheAges Follow Jim/Father on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/13848336-jim-scriven Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/jMWyVJ6qKk Follow us on "X": @Fantasy4theAges Follow us on Blue Sky: @fantasy4theages.bsky.socialFollow us on Instagram: fantasy_for_the_ages Follow us on Mastodon: @FantasyForTheAges@nerdculture.de Email us: FantasyForTheAges@gmail.com Check out our merch: https://www.newcreationsbyjen.com/collections/fantasyfortheagesJim's Microphone: Blue Yeti https://tinyurl.com/3shpvhb4 ————————————————————————————Music and video elements licensed under Envato Elements:https://elements.envato.com/

We're celebrating our 10th anniversary all year by digging in the vaults to re-present classic episodes with fresh commentary. Today, we're revisiting our 2017 conversation with Jimmy Webb. ABOUT JIMMY WEBBJimmy Webb emerged as a superstar songwriter and arranger in 1967 when two of his songs – The 5th Dimension's “Up, Up and Away” and Glen Campbell's “By the Time I Get to Phoenix” - were among the five nominees for the Grammy's Song of the Year award. He went on to write a string of major hits for Campbell, including “Wichita Lineman,” “Galveston,” "Where's the Playground Susie,” “Honey Come Back,” and many others. Additionally, he penned “MacArthur Park,” which was a hit for a diverse range of artists, including Richard Harris, Waylon Jennings, Tony Bennett, Andy Williams, and Donna Summer; “The Worst That Could Happen,” which was a Top 5 hit for The Brooklyn Bridge; “Didn't We,” which was recorded by Thelma Houston, Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, and Barbra Streisand; “All I Know,” which became a Top 10 hit for Art Garfunkel; “The Moon's a Harsh Mistress,” which has been recorded by Joe Cocker, Judy Collins, Linda Ronstadt, and Josh Groban; and “If These Walls Could Speak,” which was recorded by Glen Campbell, Amy Grant, Nanci Griffith, and Shawn Colvin. Others who've covered material from the Jimmy Webb songbook include Diana Ross, Dusty Springfield, Nina Simone, The Four Tops, Roberta Flack, The Temptations, The Association, Tom Jones, Dionne Warwick, Cass Elliot, Harry Nilsson, Nancy Wilson, Cher, Bob Dylan, The Everly Brothers, Nick Cave, John Denver, Kenny Rogers, Sheena Easton, David Crosby, Rosemary Clooney, Michael Feinstein, R.E.M., Aimee Mann, America, Aretha Franklin, Isaac Hayes, Peggy Lee, Bette Midler, James Taylor, Carrie Underwood, Dwight Yoakam, and The Highwaymen (consisting of Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, and Kris Kristofferson), who took Jimmy's song “Highwayman” to #1, earning him a Grammy for Country Song of the Year. As an artist, he has released more than a dozen albums. One of the most celebrated songwriters on the planet, Jimmy is the only individual to win Grammy awards for music, lyrics, and orchestration. He was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame, the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, and the Great American Songbook Hall of Fame. Additionally, he has received ASCAP's Lifetime Achievement Award, the Influential Songwriter Award from the National Music Publishers Association, and the Academy of Country Music's prestigious Poets Award. In 2015 he was named among Rolling Stone magazine's 100 Greatest Songwriters of All Time. Jimmy's memoir, The Cake and the Rain, details his formative years and early career through 1973. It's available now from St. Martin's Press. 

I have been anticipating having the opportunity to speak with Carl Amari on an episode of Unstoppable Mindset for several months. Carl and I share a passion for vintage radio programs sometimes called “old time radio shows”. Carl heard his first broadcast in 1975 when he heard Cary Grant staring in a program from the 20-year long series entitled “Suspense”. That program left the air in 1962, but like other shows, some radio stations kept it alive later.   Carl's interest in vintage programs goes far beyond the over 100,000 transcription master's he has amassed. He has also created some programs of his own. For example, in 2002 Carl asked for and received the rights to recreate the television show, “The Twilight Zone” for a radio audience. He used many famous actors while recreating the series. He talks about what he did and how he brought “The Twilight Zone” to life on the radio.   He also has dramatized five versions of the bible. His most well-known work is “The Word Of Promise Bible”. When I first purchased that bible from Audible, I had no idea that Carl was its creator.   Carl Amari is quite a creative guy making movies, collecting and producing radio programs and he even hosts podcasts.   I hope you have as much fun listening to this episode as I did in creating it with Carl. We definitely will have him back as he has many more stories to tell.       About the Guest:   Carl Amari has been licensing classic radio shows from the owners and estates since 1990.  He has amassed a library of 100,000+ master recordings.  Amari broadcasts these golden-age of radio shows on his 5-hour radio series, Hollywood 360, heard on 100+ radio stations coast-to-coast each week.  Amari is also the Host/Producer of The WGN Radio Theatre heard each weekend on legendary Chicago radio station, WGN AM 720. Amari is the founder and curator of The Classic Radio Club.  Each month Amari selects the best-of-the-best from his classic radio library to send to members.   Amari is also a published author.  In 1996, he began writing a series of books about classic radio for The Smithsonian Institute.  More recently, he teamed with fellow classic radio expert, Martin Grams, to co-write the best-selling coffee-table cook “The Top 100 Classic Radio Shows” (available at Amazon).  Each bi-monthly, Amari writes a classic radio-themed column titled “Good Old Days on the Radio” for the nostalgia publication Good Old Days Magazine.   In 2002, Amari licensed the intellectual property, The Twilight Zone, from CBS and The Rod Serling estate to create and produce The Twilight Zone Radio Dramas, which are fully dramatized audio adaptations based on Rod Serling's Emmy-Award winning TV series.  Hosted by prolific actor Stacy Keach, each hour-long radio drama features a Hollywood celebrity in the title role.  The Twilight Zone Radio Dramas has won numerous awards of excellence including The Audie Award, AFTRA's American Scene Award and the XM Nation Award for Best Radio Drama on XM.  The Twilight Zone Radio Dramas are broadcast coast-to-coast each week on nearly 100 radio stations.    In 2007, Amari parlayed his experience and passion for radio theatre and love for the Bible into the creation of the award-winning Word of Promise celebrity-voiced, dramatized audio Bible published by Christian giant Thomas Nelson, Inc.  The New Testament won 2008's highest Evangelical award, The Christian Book of the Year.  The Word of Promise stars Jim Caviezel (“The Passion of the Christ”) reprising his film role as Jesus, with Michael York, Terence Stamp, Lou Gossett, Jr., Marisa Tomei, Lou Diamond Phillips, Ernie Hudson, Kimberly-Williams Paisley and many other celebrities voicing roles of the New Testament.  In 2008, Amari produced The Word of Promise Old Testament featuring more than 400 actors including: Jon Voight, Gary Sinise, Richard Dreyfuss, Max von Sydow, Malcolm McDowell, Joan Allen, John Rhys-Davies, Sean Astin, Marcia Gay Harden and Jesse McCartney. The Old Testament was combined with the New Testament and released as The Word of Promise Complete audio Bible in 2009 and has won numerous awards, including three Audie awards.  The Word of Promise has become the #1 selling audio Bible of all time.  In 2009, Amari produced The Truth & Life Dramatized Audio Bible: New Testament, a Catholic Bible featuring Neal McDonough, John Rhys-Davies, Malcolm McDowell, Kristen Bell, Blair Underwood, Julia Ormond, Brian Cox, Sean Astin and other celebrities.  It was released by Zondervan Corporation, the largest religious publisher in the world.  Amari secured an Imprimatur from The Vatican and a foreword by Pope Benedict XVI for The Truth & Life Dramatized Audio Bible: New Testament, which has become the #1 selling Catholic audio Bible in the world.  In 2016, Amari produced The Breathe Audio Bible for Christian Publisher Tyndale House.  Celebrities voicing roles include Ashley Judd, Josh Lucas, Kevin Sorbo, Hill Harper, John Rhys-Davies and Corbin Bleu.  Amari currently produces a weekly radio series based on this audio Bible called The Breathe Radio Theatre hosted by Kevin Sorbo, heard on Christian radio stations coast-to-coast.    In 2000, Amari produced the feature film Madison starring Jim Caviezel, Bruce Dern, Jake Lloyd, Mary McCormack and John Mellencamp.  In 2001, Madison was invited by Robert Redford to be the opening film at Redford's prestigious Sundance Film Festival.  Madison was later released worldwide by MGM.  Amari also spends his time creating television series for Warner Brothers and Gulfstream Pictures.  Amari's latest film projects include producing, Wireman, starring Scott Eastwood and Andy Garcia, a true-story set in 1978 Chicago and Crossed, a Zombie Post-Apocalyptic story by The Boys creator Garth Ennis.  Both films will be released in 2025.   Amari's company was twice named to the INC. 500 list of fastest growing privately-held companies.  He was selected as one of Chicago's Very Own by Tribune Broadcasting and his business accomplishments have been highlighted in The Wall Street Journal, The Chicago Sun-Times, The Chicago Tribune, Variety, INC. 500, The Associated Press, Entertainment Weekly, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times and The New York Post. Ways to connect Carl:   https://www.hollywood360radio.com/   https://classicradioclub.com/   https://ultimateclassicradio.com/   You can also provide my email address: Carl@ClassicRadioClub.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello to you all, wherever you may be, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Oh, it's always good to have an unstoppable mindset. I am really very joy today. I'm really happy because I get to have an hour to chat with someone who I've admired for a while, although I haven't told him that but he, I first heard him on a show. Well, he did a show called Yeah, on a program called yesterday USA, which is a program that plays old radio shows on now two different networks. They have a red network and a blue network, so they have emulated NBC, and they're on 24 hours a day, doing a lot of old radio stuff. And I've been collecting radio shows for a long time, although our guest, Carl has has done, in a broad sense, a lot more than I have. But anyway, he collects shows. He does a lot with master copies of radio shows, and I don't, don't have that many masters, but he's also done some other things. For example, in 2002 he acquired the rights from CBS and the Rod Serling estate to create Twilight Zone radio, and he is created versions for radio of all of the Twilight Zone broadcasts. The other thing that he did that I didn't realize until I got his bio, is that he created something else that I purchased from Audible, probably in 2008 or 2009 the Word of Promise Bible, where he got a number of entertainers and and special people and Celebrities like Michael York and others to create the Bible, and it's only 98 hours long. So you know, it takes a little while to read, but still, it's worth doing. So I would like to introduce you all to Carl Amari and Carl, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Michael,   Carl Amari ** 03:14 thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor. Thanks so much.   Michael Hingson ** 03:19 Well, the honor is, is mine as well. I really am glad that that you're here and we do get to talk about radio and all sorts of whatever comes along. Well, I want to start this way. Tell me about kind of the early Carl, growing up and all that well for an opening, yeah. Gosh,   Carl Amari ** 03:35 that was a long time ago, but when I was 12 years old in 1975 I heard my first classic radio show. It was an episode of suspense, and it starred Cary Grant in a show called on a country road. Yeah, and I was at a sleepover at my friend's house, and we were kind of rowdy, as as 12 year olds will be. And his father had this show, I think it was on an eight track tape or a cassette tape, and he played it, and it was the first time I ever experienced theater of the mind. And I, you know, grew up watching Batman and the Twilight Zone and Wild Wild West, and I had never had anything, you know, that that really, really just blew me away, like hearing a radio drama where you hear the the actors performing, and you see the, you know, they have the sound effects and the music, and it creates this movie in your mind. And I was at a 12 as 12 years old. I was just completely just, you know, flabbergasted, and I wanted to learn all I could about classic radio and and so I spent, really my entire career, the last 40 plus years, licensing and putting out these radio shows, licensing from. The estates and putting them out on radio and on CD and digital download and so forth.   Michael Hingson ** 05:06 Cool. Yeah, I remember on a country road the first show. Well, I remember a few times my parents were listening to radio in the early 50s, and I think one of the first ones I heard was Dick Tracy, but I don't even remember that, but I think it was 1957 in October or so. I was listening to the radio, and all of a sudden I heard, and one of my maybe it was 58 but anyway, one of my favorite songs at the time was Tom Dooley by the Kingston Trio, and this announcement came up that on suspense this Sunday would be the story of Tom Dooley. And I went, Oh, that's Oh, right, right. Listen to that. And I did, and I was hooked for the very same reasons that you were radio really presents you the opportunity to picture things in in your own mind, in a sense, the way you want. And what they do in the radio production is get actors who can draw you in, but the whole idea is for you to picture it in your own mind. So I did it with Tom Dooley, and I got hooked. And I was listening to suspense and yours truly Johnny dollar ever since that day. And then also Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel came along, and then that was fun.   Carl Amari ** 06:23 Yeah, those were those shows that you just mentioned. They were on still in the 50s. Because when you think of the golden age of radio, it was really the 30, late 30s all the way to the very early 50s, golden age of radio. But there were hangers on. There was Johnny dollar, and, like you said, suspense. And you know, some of these programs that were still on fiber, McGee and Molly, even, you know, Jack Benny, were still on during the 50s. And then, of course, most of the shows made the transition to the visual medium of television. But the eyes, I still say, you know, today, listening to these radio shows is more fun, and I think they're more impactful than the television versions. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 I think so by any standard. I think that's true. And gun Well, let's see. Suspense went into, I think 1962 Johnny dollar did, and suspense and Gunsmoke and Have Gun Will Travel. Started on television, actually, but then transitioned to radio. There were a few shows, a few of the plots that actually were on both, yes, but John Danner played Paladin on the radio, and that was fun. And then, of course, Gunsmoke as well. So they, they, they all went into the 60s, which was kind of kind of cool, yeah.   Carl Amari ** 07:43 And usually they had, you know, sometimes they had the same cast, and other times a completely different cast, like with Gunsmoke, you know, William Conrad was Marshall Matt Dillon on on radio. And, of course, people remember him as canon on television, also Nero Wolf on television. But William Conrad, who was probably in more radio shows than anyone I can think of. Yeah, was, was Marshall, Matt Dillon, and then on on television, of course, James Arness, so yeah, and but then, you know, the Jack Benny Program, there was the same cast, you know, the very same people that were on radio, moved to television, same with Red Skelton and many of the shows, but other times, completely different cast.   Michael Hingson ** 08:22 I was watching this morning when I woke up, me too. Let's see, was it me too? Yeah, was me TV? They're great and and they had Jack Benny on at 430 in the morning. I just happened to wake up and I turned it on. There's Benny season five, where he took the beavers to county fair. Of course, the Beavers are fun. And I've actually, I've actually had the opportunity to meet Beverly Washburn, which was, oh, sure,   Carl Amari ** 08:52 sure. Oh man, Jack Benny, probably the high water mark of comedy. You know, when you talk about, you know, a guy that was on, he started in vaudeville, you know, and then he had his own radio show, his own TV show was in movies, and probably the most successful. And when you think about Seinfeld, right, when you think about the series, the television series Seinfeld, there's so many correlations between Seinfeld and the Jack Benny Program, you know Seinfeld. It was, was a comedian, you know Jerry Seinfeld, playing himself. He had this cast of Looney characters all around him. Same thing with the Jack Benny show. It was Jack Benny with a cast of Looney characters. And so it's probably was an homage, you know, to to Jack Benny. And   Michael Hingson ** 09:39 I, I'm, think you're right. I think in a lot of ways, that probably absolutely was the case. And you know, there are so many radio shows that that, in one way or another, have have influenced TV. And I think people don't necessarily recognize that, but it's true, how much, yeah, radio really set the stage for so many things. Yeah, I think the later suspenses, in a sense, were a lot better than some of the earlier ones, because they really were more poignant. Some were more science fiction, but they really were more suspenseful than than some of the early ones, but they were all fun.   Carl Amari ** 10:13 Oh gosh, suspense that's now you're talking about, I think the best series of all time, you know, because it was about almost 1000 episodes. It lasted from 42 to, I believe, 62 or 63 and and it had, for a time, there was a lot of true stories on suspense when Elliot Lewis took over. But yeah, you're right. It had the best actors, the best writers, the best production values. So suspense to this day. You know, I think is, of all the shows was, was one of the best, if not the best.   Michael Hingson ** 10:45 Oh, I agree. I can't argue with that at all. And did so many things. And then for at least a summer, they had hour long suspenses, but mostly it was a half hour or Yes, later was 25 minutes plus a newscast, right,   Carl Amari ** 10:59 right, right? It didn't seem to work in the hour long format. They only did a handful of those, and they went back right back to the half hour once a week, you know. But, yeah, no suspense, one of my favorites for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 Oh, yeah. Well, and it's hard to argue with that. It's so much fun to do all of these. And you know, on other shows in radio, in a sense, tried to emulate it. I mean, escape did it for seven years, but it still wasn't suspense, right,   Carl Amari ** 11:27 right. Closest thing to suspense was escape, but it was never and I think because you know, as as you know Michael, but maybe some of your listeners don't realize this, these actors, these big actors, Humphrey Bogard and chair, you know, James Stewart and Cary Grant, they were, they were studio, they were under a studio contract. So they weren't like today, where they were freelance. So when, like, let's say, Jimmy Stewart was being paid, I'll just make up a number $5,000 a week to be under contract to make movies when he wasn't making a movie, they wanted to make money on this actor, so they would loan him out to radio. And these actors were on suspense, like on a routine basis, you had movie stars every week appearing on suspense, the biggest movie stars on the planet. So and you would think, well, how could they afford these movie stars? Well, because the studios wanted to make money when their actors weren't working, right?   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 And and did, and people really appreciate it. I mean, Jess Stewart, yeah, even some of the actors from radio, like fiber began, Molly, yeah, on a suspense. And they were, that was a great that was a great show. But, oh yeah,   Carl Amari ** 12:38 back, I think it was back, right? Yeah, yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 12:41 was really cool. Well, you license a lot of shows from, from people tell me more about that. That must be interesting and fascinating to try to negotiate and actually work out. Well,   Carl Amari ** 12:52 early on, when I was in college, you know, as a communications major, and I learned very early on that these show, a lot of these shows are, copyrighted so and because I was actually sent a cease and desist letter on a college station just playing a show. And so that was, and it was from Mel blanks company, man of 1000 voices. And he his son, Noel, helped me learn, you know, taught me that, hey, you know, these shows are were created by, you know, the the estates, you know, the that were still around Jack Benny and, you know, CBS owns a ton of stuff and different, you know, entities that own these shows and and he helped, and he introduced me to a lot of people, including Jerry Lewis and Milton Burrell and and so I spent My early career in my 20s, flying back and forth to LA and New York and licensing these shows from like Irving Brecher, who created the life of Riley and the Jack Benny estate. And, you know, golden books at the time, owned the Lone Ranger and so licensing that and Warner Brothers, you know, DC for Batman and so, and Superman, I mean, which had Batman on it, but Superman, I licensed those. And, you know, MCA universal for dragnet and the six shooter and so on and on and on and and I spent, as I say, my early career licensing. I now have over 100,000 shows under license, and mostly from Master transcriptions, because I only like to collect from the master source, because we put them out through a club, the classic Radio Club, and I air them on my I have a national radio show called Hollywood 360 we air them every week, five shows every week on the network. There's over 100 stations, including Armed Forces Radio and and so I want the quality to be impeccable. I don't want dubs of dubs or, you know, cracks and pops. And I really want to give people what it sounded like back then when they aired   Michael Hingson ** 14:54 and well. And you you can sort of do that, but the sound is probably even better today. With the audio equipment that people have access to, yeah, the sound is even better than it was. But I hear what you're saying, and it's cool to listen to those, and they're not stereo. Oh, that would be interesting to to try to reprocess and make that happen, but the audio is incredible. Yeah,   Carl Amari ** 15:16 yeah, that's kind of what our, you know, our trademark is, Michael is, you know, if you're listening to Hollywood 360 which, as I say, is on a lot of stations across the country, when you listen to that show, and in every hour, we play a we play a show, you know you're going to get something that sounds just, is like we're talking right now. You know that's that's important to me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 well, and I can appreciate that, and it makes perfect sense that it is because we should really preserve the the programs, and we should do what we can to make them sound as good as we can, and we should really get that high quality. And the high quality is there, yes, just not always what people find, and people are willing to, well, accept less than what they should, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 16:01 well, I, you know, I grew up collecting from where I wherever I could. But then, when I started licensing them, I would get the masters from the, you know, whoever owned them. And then I also have about a half a dozen collectors that only collect on 16 inch disc, which is kind of great. And so if I have, let's say, you know, suspense and and I'll, you know, let's say, you know, because we license that from CBS. But if CBS doesn't have a certain show, but a collector on disc has it, I'll get that from the collector and still pay the royalty the CBS because they own it. But I'll get that, that disc from a collector. And, you know, we, and it's a cost of doing business, but we'll get it transferred and and put it out to the public that way.   Michael Hingson ** 16:46 Typically, what are the discs made of? So   Carl Amari ** 16:49 they're, they're like, uh, they're like a shellac. I mean, they're, they're like, a glass. Some of them are actually glass,   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 yeah, you know, some of the Jack Benny shows were glass, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 16:59 and acetate and things like that. And so I there's one gentleman that's in in Redding, California, Doug Hopkinson, who is just an expert on this, and he does most of the transfers. We recently licensed 41 different series from Frederick zivs estate. And you know, we're talking the entire collection of Boston Blackie bold venture with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall, Philo Vance, with Jackson Beck, Mr. District Attorney, and I was a communist for the FBI. And Doug is actually doing they're all on they're all zivs Personal discs. Frederick Ziv, he had them. There's 10,000 more than 10,000 discs in a controlled warehouse in Cincinnati, and we are slowly but surely working our way through 10,000 shows. And Doug is doing all those transfers. So he's a busy guy. Does he go there to do it? No, we have him sent. So you do cardboard boxes. Yeah, yeah. To California. And then Doug has two, you know, it's special equipment that you have to use. I mean, it's very, very it's not just a turntable, and it's a special equipment. And then, you know, we get the raw file, you know, we get the, he uses the special needles based on that album, you know, or that disc he has, you know, a whole plethora of needles, and then he tests it, whichever gets the best sound out of there. So, yeah, he's really, he's tops at this. And so we're doing those Troy, we just transferred all the, I was a communist for the FBI with Dana Andrews, yeah, and all the Boston blackies, which is one of my favorites   Michael Hingson ** 18:40 and bold venture. And, yeah, I have those, good man, so I know that it's interesting. You mentioned the needles. So for people who don't know, in order to get a program on one disc, the transcriptions were literally 16 inches. I mean, we're all used to LPS or 12 inch disc, but the radio transcriptions were 16 inch discs, right?   Carl Amari ** 19:05 And that held 15 minutes. And now you needed two discs, yeah? So generally, you needed two discs to give you one show, unless it was one on one side and one on the other side. But a lot of times it was, it was, it was two discs for one show, yeah, and then, and then, on the opposite side, you'd have another show. One   Michael Hingson ** 19:24 of the things that I got the opportunity to do was to collect my dad knew somebody when he worked at Edwards Air Force Base that had a number of 16 inch transcriptions, and I had a turntable. Wasn't great, but it served the purpose for a college kid. And one of the things I discovered was that there were a few recordings that, rather than putting the needle on the outside and the record spins and plays in, you actually start from the inside and go out.   Carl Amari ** 19:56 Yes, I've seen that, yeah, and I'm told we're that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 I'm told that they did that because the the audio quality was actually better. Doing it that way, really? Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know, but that's what I was told, was that the audio quality was even better. Wow,   Carl Amari ** 20:11 yeah. I mean, it's a skill, you know, because with we really have one shot to get these 10, you know, these, these discs and and and we were getting them from, from literally, Frederick zivs Personal. They were, I told, like the first one off the duplication line. When he would, he would bicycle the discs all around the country. We're not using discs that were ever touched by radio stations. In fact, a lot of them, we have to drill out the holes in the middle because they've closed up a little bit. So these have never been played. They're unplayed. His master discs that are unplayed and and if you have the bold venture, you know what we were able to pull off those masters, it's like high fidelity. Mon Oro,   Michael Hingson ** 20:56 yeah. They're as good as it can get. And they do, they sound really great. Well, even the Boston blackies are good. Yeah,   Carl Amari ** 21:02 oh yeah, yeah. I'm excited about that, because that, that's one of my favorite shows Boston.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 I like Boston Blackie and yeah, and I like, I was a communist for the FBI, and I haven't gotten those yet, but I'm waiting to get Dana Andrews that whole   Carl Amari ** 21:15 they just shipped. So there you should be getting them, Michael. So thank you for that. They'll   Michael Hingson ** 21:20 be they'll be coming, yes, which is pretty cool, but it is so fun to have the opportunity to listen to all these and I really urge people, the easy way is you can go to places like yesterday usa.net, online and listen to a lot of radio programs, but you can go to Carl's website, or when he can tell us how to do it, and you can actually purchase the opportunity to get copies of some of these shows, and they're absolutely fun and worth doing.   Carl Amari ** 21:54 Yeah, thank you, Michael. We are. We have, you know, our radio show has a website. You can learn about our radio show that's that's easy. It's Hollywood. And then 360 so Hollywood, 360 radio.com, that's like my and you can reach me, but there's ways to contact me through there. And then we, I think I mentioned we offer these through a club, which is pretty cool, because what I do every month is I'll comb the library of we have over 100,000 shows, and I'll take, I'll pick 10 shows every month and put them either on five CDs with a booklet, historical booklet, and it's in a nice case. And you get about every 30 days, CD members get a new 10 C 10 show five CD set in the mail, or you can get those same shows via digital download. So if you don't want the CDs, you just want a link sent to you there, they're done that way too. And that's classic radio club.com and all of the information is there at Classic radio club.com and as I say that that we put out only the best quality there, like, the best quality you could possibly get, which,   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 which is so cool, because I have heard some of those programs as you say that they're dubbed or people, for some reason, have the wrong speed. They're not great quality, right? So frustrating. Yeah, there's no need for any of that. And some people, of course, cut out the commercials, not being visionary enough to understand the value of leaving the commercials in, right? And again, they didn't do a very good job of cutting them out.   Carl Amari ** 23:31 No, we leave everything in. Even, you know, it's so interesting to hear cigarette commercials, or, you know, all you know, vitamin commercials, like, you know, you know, ironized yeast presents, lights out. You know, it's fun. It's fun to hear, you know, these commercials. And sometimes, like on the dragnets, when they're talking about Chesterfield, they're like, oh, doctor recommended, you know, and all this.   Michael Hingson ** 23:55 Well, even better than that, I was just thinking the Fatima cigarettes commercials on dragnet. Yeah, research shows, yeah, I wonder where they got that research,   Carl Amari ** 24:07 yeah. Oh my gosh. They were, they were, it was crazy how they would do that. I mean, they got away with it. They did. They did. They did. And, you know, we, even when we air radio shows, we don't cut the commercials unless it's cigarette commercials, because there's an FCC rule that you can't hear cigarette commercials. But like, you know, when we play Jack Benny and there's and there's, you know, Grape Nuts flakes commercials, we leave it in. We want people to hear the Fun, fun of those commercials and things well,   Michael Hingson ** 24:36 and sometimes, of course, like with great nuts flakes commercials, the commercial is part of the program. Yes, it's integrated. Break away. It's all integrated in which makes it so fun. I didn't know that there was an FCC rule that said you can't air any cigarette commercials even for educational purposes.   Carl Amari ** 24:55 Well, it might be for educational purposes. It may be non commercial, but I know on commercial stage. Stations, I can imagine that. Yeah, yeah. And Hollywood, 360 is commercial, you know, we have sponsors like, you know, we have Prevagen is one of our big sponsors, cats, pride, kitty litter, and, you know, they've been with me forever. And, you know, whatever, the Home Depot, Geico, you know, my pillow, these are some of our sponsors. And, and so we're on commercial stations across the country.   Michael Hingson ** 25:21 Yeah, so it makes sense that that you you do it that way, which, yeah, you know, is understandable. But, boy, some of those commercials are the Chesterfield commercials. Accu Ray on Gunsmoke. Yeah?   Carl Amari ** 25:37 A gimmick to get you to buy their cigarettes.   Michael Hingson ** 25:39 Yeah, I bet there was no accuray machine, but, oh, probably not, probably not. It is so funny. Well, you did the Twilight Zone radio programs. What got you started on doing that?   Carl Amari ** 25:53 Well, you know, growing up, I think I mentioned earlier, it was one of my favorite shows, yeah, always mine too, you know. And just watching that I was so blown away by twilight zone as a kid. So then when I got into the licensing of these classic radio shows, and I I was, I guess I was just always really envious of these producers that got to do these radio shows. And I always thought, man, I was. I was born in the wrong decades. You know, I was, I wish I was around back in the 40s and was able to produce suspense or escape or one of these shows. And I thought the show that would work the best, you know, that was on television, that that would work great in the theater of the mind realm, would be twilight zone, because growing up watching, you know, the makeup wasn't that great and the costumes weren't that great. You could see the zippers on the Martians sometimes. And I thought, you know, the writing was so amazing, right? And the stories were so vivid, and it worked for your theater of the mind that you didn't really need the visual with Twilight Zone, especially if you, you know, you have to write them in a way for radio. There's a special technique for writing for radio, obviously. So I, I reached out to to CBS and the rod Sterling estate, and they thought it was cool. And they said, you know, what do one, we'll let, we'll let, we'll take a listen to one, you know. And they sent me the television script for monsters are due on Maple Street. That was the one they sent me. And at the time, I was trying to get Robert Wagner to be the host. I always liked to take the thief and and, and he thought it was interesting, but he passed on it ultimately. And, and then at the same time, I was working with Stacy Keach, senior, Stacy keach's Dad, who had created Tales from the tales of the Texas range Rangers, right? And, and, and so I was at, actually at Jane Seymour's house, because Jane Seymour was married at that time to Stacy's brother, James Keach, and I got invited to a party there. And I got to meet Stacy Keach and and I heard his voice up close, you know, standing next to him, and I was like, this is the guy I gotta get to be the host. And so I started telling him about what I was doing, and he's like, I'd love to be the host of that. And so that was the beginning of a lifelong friendship with Stacy, and he was just incredible on it. And we did one, we did a pilot, monsters are doing Maple Street. And they loved it. And said, go ahead. And that was it. And it was like, in 2002   Michael Hingson ** 28:29 the first one I heard was, if I remember the title, right, a different kind of stopwatch, okay, the one with Blue Diamond Phillips, Blue Diamond Phillips, that was the first one. I think you. You offered that as a, as a sample. Yeah, yes, when I got that was pretty cool. But you   Carl Amari ** 28:43 wouldn't believe Michael, how many whenever I would reach out to an actor like Jason Alexander, I mean, Jay, I remember Jason, when I reached out to him and I said, Hey, I'd like to you to do these. And he was like, Oh, I'd love it. And then he did it, and then he'd call me and say, You got any more of those? Love doing it, you know, because they never get to do this. They, you know, these actors don't get to do radio. And so people like, you know, Lou Diamond Phillips and Luke Perry God rest his soul, and and Michael York and Malcolm McDowell and, you know, Don Johnson and Lou and Luke Luke Gossett Jr, so many of these people that I reached out to, Jane Seymour, another one, they were just they were they couldn't say yes fast enough. They just loved doing radio drama. It was so easy to book these stars. I've   Michael Hingson ** 29:38 been talking with Walden Hughes, who, you know, is the guy who now runs yesterday USA, we've been talking about and we've been doing recreations of a number of shows. The problem is that the people who are involved, oftentimes have never really gone back and listened to the shows they're recreating and their voice. And what they do are so different than the kinds of things that you actually would hear on the shows, they just don't do it very well. And we've actually thought about the idea of trying to get a grant to try to teach people how to be radio actors and really learn to do the kinds of things that would make the shows a lot more meaningful. We'll see what happens. We're really working on it. We're going to be doing some recreations in Washington for enthusiasm. Puget Sound, yes, and one of my favorite radio shows has always been Richard diamond private detective. I thought such a wise guy, and so I am actually going to be Richard diamond in Nice,   Carl Amari ** 30:46 oh my gosh, yeah, wow. Well, you know, there's a real, there's a real special magic to doing these radio shows, as I know, you know, you understand, you know, there's, there's, and that was that really boils down to having great actors and also great writing like so CBS would send us. He would, they would send me the our the Rod Serling scripts, you know, we really, we'd get them, but they, of course, would not work on radio because it was written for a visual medium. So I had, I had a two time sci fi fantasy winning writer Dennis echeson, who is no longer with us, unfortunately, but he, he, he was an expert on Twilight Zone and also how to write for radio. And it's all about that it's taking that he would take the TV scripts and and redo them so that they would work without the visual, and that you start with that. And then you can, you know, then you can create, when you have a grin, you have a great group of actors. And I hired only the best Chicago supporting cast here, you know, the the Goodman theater and, and, you know actors and, and, you know people like that. And then, of course, the star, we'd fly the star in, yeah, and they, they knock out two shows. I bring in lunch in the middle of the day, we'd knock out two shows. And it was a wonderful experience doing like, I don't know, I think I did, oh gosh, close to 200 episodes.   Michael Hingson ** 32:13 Now, were some of the episodes, shows that never were on the the TV series, or they, yeah, when   Carl Amari ** 32:19 we got through the original 156 shows, because that's how many were in the original Rod Serling run. So we did them all. We actually one of them I never released because I wasn't happy with it. I think it was called come wander with me. So that one I never released, we did it. I wasn't happy with it, because it was a musical one, you know, I think it had Bob Crosby on it, or somebody like that, and on the TV show, and so it was a lot of singing, and I just wasn't happy with it. But after that, there was no no more. I could have gone into the later series, but I just, I said to them, can I hire writers to write new ones, you know? And they said, Sure, but we have to approve it and all that. And so a lot of them got approved, and a lot of them didn't. And then we, we, I think we produced maybe close to 4030, or 40 originals,   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 right? Yeah, did you ever meet Rod Serling? No, never   Carl Amari ** 33:18 did. He was gone before I got into this. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:22 he came to UC Irvine to lecture once when I was still on campus. I was actually Program Director of the radio station, and so several of us from kuci got to interview him. And one of our, the people who was involved with that, actually had one of the ape costumes from Planet of the Apes. So he came dressed up as one of the Apes. Was Wow, but great. But the thing about rod Sterling his voice is it's hot. How do I describe this? No matter what his voice sounded like on television, it wasn't nearly as deep as his natural voice, and microphones couldn't get the same level with his real voice, and so we interviewed him. His voice was very deep, and then we did then we went out and listened to the lecture at the gym, and he sounded like Rod Serling, but he didn't sound like Rod Serling when we were talking with him, yeah, and when we could hear him with our ears, when it came out on on the show that we did the interview, it again, sounded like Rod Serling, but just the microphone. Couldn't really get the full breath of his voice, which was sure,   Carl Amari ** 34:35 yeah. I mean, what a talent, right? I mean, and then he had that show, Zero Hour, zero hour, right? Yeah, radio. And that was an interesting series, too. He tried to bring back the and he didn't. It was a, I think it was a fine job. You know, good job. Yeah. There were others, you know, CBS Radio, mystery theater, of course, diamond Brown. And there were some other ones. But I. I'm real proud, really, really proud of The Twilight Zone. I think they're, they're, they're, I mean, they're not nothing is as good as the way they did these the shows in the golden age. I mean, I don't think anyone can get to that point, but they're, I think they're pretty close, and I'm very proud of them.   Michael Hingson ** 35:15 Oh, yeah. And, but it still is with the Twilight Zone. It's really hard to compete with that, my favorite Twilight Zone, and for me, it was tough because I never knew the titles of the shows, because they would show you the title, but I could never, never really hear them. But when I started collecting and got access to, like your your radio Twilight zones and so on. I started to learn titles, and so my favorite has always been valley of the shadow. Oh, great one. Yeah. I just always thought that was the best of the it was an hour long instead of a half hour. But I Yeah, on TV. But I always thought that was just so innovative. I   Carl Amari ** 35:57 think Ernie Hudson did that one for me. I'm trying to think, but yeah, there was, we had, we had so many incredible actors on it. I mean, it was, it was a real fun, you know, four or five years that I was doing those, lot of fun doing them. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:12 you had several with Stan Freeberg. And, of course, yes, who don't know Stan Freeberg was definitely very much involved in radio, especially in the 50s, late 40s, with, that's rich, but mostly in the 50s, a satirist and incredible humorist and entertainer. But he did several Twilight zones.   Carl Amari ** 36:31 He did, you know, yeah, I was working with him on, you know, I created the show when radio was, which is still out there today, and and when radio was I ever initially had art Fleming as the host, you know, the original host of original Jeopardy guy, yeah. And then when art passed away, I hired Stan Freeberg, and Stan was the host of that show for many years. And then, then, when I started doing Twilight Zone, I said, Hey, would you like to do some of these? And he's like, Yeah, I'd like to do them all, yeah. Let me have all the scripts. But the one that he did that I think, is just off the charts amazing, is called Four o'clock ever, yeah, one, yeah, yeah. That is just the most interesting show, The Twilight Zone episode that we did where he plays this kind of a loony, a loony guy, who is that? What you describe him as, narking on everybody doesn't like anything, like anybody or anything, no, and it's so and he calls people and harasses them and oh my gosh, and he says, I'm gonna shrink everybody to four inches tall at four o'clock. Four o'clock, right? Yeah, and it's just, oh my gosh, what a what a great episode. It's one of my favorites.   Michael Hingson ** 37:48 And of course, if you think about it, listening people out there who got shrunk at four o'clock,   Carl Amari ** 37:56 well, let's not give it away, but yes, I think you can figure it out.   Michael Hingson ** 37:59 I think it's pretty,   Carl Amari ** 37:59 easy to figure out, but, and I actually played, I actually played a role in that episode. I played the bird. I did all the bird sounds on that episode. And so I feel like I had a co starring role, because, yeah, he had a parrot. You know, that was every time you would say something. And I played that, that part on there. But   Michael Hingson ** 38:22 yeah, all the Twilight zones were, were so clever, yeah, and, and I love listening to them. I I have a an mp three player that I carry on airplanes, and I have audio copies of all the Twilight zones. So every so often as I'm flying somewhere or two on and listen there, Michael,   Carl Amari ** 38:43 I'm so glad to hear that. Oh, man, you make me so happy to hear that. So   Michael Hingson ** 38:47 fun. And you know, another one of my favorites was, will the real Martian please stand up now? Yeah, that was cute, and I won't give it. Oh,   Carl Amari ** 38:57 great. So great. Yeah, I sent trying to think who the actor was in that one, but it's been a while, but that's a great one, yeah. And I remember, you know, watching it on TV and and thinking, Oh, this would work on radio. So great, you know, so love doing them. Yeah, I'd love to do more. I might consider coming back and doing more. I mean, originals, you know, might be a lot of fun to do those again, I was   Michael Hingson ** 39:21 going to ask you if you've got any plans for doing anything future. You know, in the future might be interesting, and there's a lot of leeway, of course, to take it in different directions. Do x minus one, but you don't have to do the same stories, even, although, yeah, a lot of good stories in in the original x minus ones on for those who don't know x minus one is a science fiction series. It was on from what 1955 through 1957 I   Carl Amari ** 39:49 believe, yeah, it was a great series. Sci Fi really lends itself really, very well to radio drama. You know, in theater of the mind, it's great because you can, you can go in. Anywhere you land on any planet. And you know, it's very easy to do on radio, where it's tough to do on TV. You know, you have to spend a lot of money to do that. So, I mean, Stan Freeburg proved that with his with his giant ice cream Sunday.   Michael Hingson ** 40:15 All right, go with the marasino Cherry. For those who don't know, is that he said, we're going to empty Lake Michigan now. We're going to fill it up with whipped cream. We're going to drop a maraschino cherry into it and other things. He said, You can't do that on TV.   Carl Amari ** 40:31 Try doing that on television. Yeah, he was something. He was so much fun to wear. Of all the people that I've met over the years, you know so many of these radio stars, and I've interviewed so many hundreds of them, really, over the years, I'd have to say I have a special place in my heart for Stan the most, because I got to work with him for so many years, and we used to just go to lunch together all the time, and and he had a, he had a, he had a, what was it again? Now? Oh, oh, I'm trying to think of the car that he drove, a jaguar. It was a jaguar, and it was a and we used to drive around in his, his big Jaguar all around LA, and just have so much fun together. And I just loved working with Stan. He was such a great man. I   Michael Hingson ** 41:17 never got to meet what would have loved to Yeah, Jack Benny and Jimmy Durante, oh my gosh, yeah. And, of course, Stan Freeberg, but yeah, you know, I wasn't in that circle, so I didn't write that. But what, what wonderful people they were. And, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 41:32 George Burns, George Burns used to, yeah, George used to take me to the Hillcrest Country Club, and we would just have the best time. He just thought it was the most interesting thing that a young guy in his 20s was so passionate about, you know, those days. And he we would just talk for hours. And I used to go to his office in Hollywood and in his and we would just sit and talk. And I have pictures of of those, those times I have them in my office, you know, he and I together. He was like a mentor to me. He and Stan were both mentors.   Michael Hingson ** 42:05 Did you get recordings of many of those conversations? Yes, I do.   Carl Amari ** 42:08 I do have quite a few with with George and Stan. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 it was great, you know, yes, nothing like talking to God, that's   Carl Amari ** 42:16 right. And he had a coffee cup in his office. It's it was a white coffee cup, and it had God on it, and black to drink out of that coffee cup. And he had, I was to say, when I first, my first time, I went to his office in Hollywood, you know, he was a real long office, narrow with is all paneling, and there was all these beautiful pictures, like photos of all the people he and Gracie had worked with. And then there was this beautiful painting of Gracie above him, you know, where he was sitting at his desk. And I remember walking in. I said, Hi, George, because I had talked to him on the phone a lot of times. And he said, Ah, come on in, you know. And I said, Oh, man, George, these photos are amazing on the walls, looking as I was walking towards his desk. And he says, You like those pictures? I said, Yeah. He goes, everyone in those pictures is dead except for me. I knew him the last about four years of his life. From that, from he was 96 to 100 I knew George, and we'd, we'd go   Michael Hingson ** 43:16 to the Hillcrest together. It was fun. Did you meet or get to know Bob Hope, never   Carl Amari ** 43:21 met Bob Hope No, because he lived, what, two, yeah. He lived 100 Yeah. Never met Bob Hope No.   Michael Hingson ** 43:27 And Irving Berlin got to 100 Yeah, yeah. But so   Carl Amari ** 43:30 many, I mean, Jerry Lewis, and so many others that that, I mean, Jerry was so great. I mean, you know, probably one of the most talented people to ever live, you know, and he could even sing, and he could, he could do it all. I mean, he was something. I mean, I was in such awe of that man. And we, he was very kind to me, licensed me to Martin Lewis and all that. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 we saw one of my favorite musicals. I originally saw it as a movie out here on K Shea was the million dollar movie. It was Damn Yankees,   Carl Amari ** 44:03 damn Yeah, he was on Broadway. Did that on Broadway, and he did it on Broadway,   Michael Hingson ** 44:07 and we read about it. And his father, he had how his father said, You'll really know you've arrived when you get to do something on Broadway. And that was the only thing he ever got to do on Broadway. And we did get to go see it. We saw, Oh, wow, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 44:20 Broadway, amazing, yeah, amazing, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:24 I'm so sad that there was so much acrimony for so many years between him and Dean Martin, yeah, which was really probably brought on more by all the people they worked with that, yes, that cost a whole lot more than them. But yeah, near the end they, they did deal with it a little Yeah?   Carl Amari ** 44:42 They, they got back together a little bit. Yeah, yeah. He was an interesting guy, Boy, I'll tell you. You know, just talking to him, I learned so much, learned so much over the years.   Michael Hingson ** 44:53 Yeah, yeah. It's so much fun to to be able to do that. Well, I really do hope you do get. To do another show, to do something else. And you're right, there's nothing like science fiction in terms of what you can do, and maybe even doing a series, yeah, yeah, as opposed to individual shows. One of my favorite science fiction books by Robert Heinlein is called the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I would love to see somebody dramatize that. I think it would take, probably, to do it right? It's going to take about 15 hours to do but, oh, wow. What a great what a great thing. If you've never read it, read the book, it's really, oh, I   Carl Amari ** 45:30 haven't, so I'm not familiar with it, so I'll give it a read. The Moon is a Harsh, missus,   Michael Hingson ** 45:34 yeah, yeah. Pretty clever. A computer helps organize a revolution on the moon, which was being colonized and run from the lunar authority on earth. Here's what gives it away in 2075 subtract 300 years. Yeah, it's all about the same thing, like the revolution here, but a computer, Mycroft wakes up and helps organize the revolution. It's really pretty clever. Oh, wow,   Carl Amari ** 46:04 that would be fun to do in a series. Yeah, it   Michael Hingson ** 46:08 would be worth doing. But, but, yeah, I've always enjoyed the book. Robert Donnelly read it as a talking book for blind people. Oh, okay, okay, yeah. So I actually have it. I'll have it, I'll have to find it. I could actually send you the recording. You could listen to it. Oh, please do. I'd love that. We won't tell the Library of Congress, so we will know much trouble.   Carl Amari ** 46:33 But you know, then I kind of, you know, my other passion is the Bible. Yeah, I was gonna get to that. Tell me, yeah. I was just gonna, you know, and so a lot of these same actors that did, you know, Twilight zones and things for for me, I just, I met, like Jason Alexander and so many of these people, Lou Gossett Jr, when I decided to do the to dramatize the entire Bible on audio. A lot of these same actors and many, many, many more, were really, were really great to be in that too. It was a lot of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 47:06 Yeah, well, very recognizable voices, to a large degree, like Michael York,   Carl Amari ** 47:12 yes, yes, he was the narrator. So he did the most. He worked the longest. What a great man. Just an amazing actor. He was the narrator. And then you know Jim Caviezel, who played Jesus in the Passion of the Christ, played Jesus in it, right? And then you know Richard Dreyfus was Moses John Voigt was Abraham. Max von Saito played Noah John Rees Davies was in it. I mean, we had, we had, I mean, Marissa Tomei was Mary Magdalene. I had many, many Academy Award winners in it, and so many people, you know, was in it. That was a four year deal that took me four years to do the full Bible. Yeah, 98 hours on audio, fully scored the whole thing.   Michael Hingson ** 48:01 Well, you had a great publisher put it out. Thomas Nelson, Yes, yep. They also did my first book, Thunder dog. So can't complain about that too much. No,   Carl Amari ** 48:10 they know how to market. It Was it, was it, I think, I think today it's still the number one selling dramatized Audio Bible in the world. I believe, you know, so it's, it's been a big success for Thomas Nelson, yeah, that was, that was, that was quite, I mean, you should have seen what my passport looked like when I did that. I mean, it was stamped for every country all over that I was going and, you know, and having to produce, because a lot of the actors, like, you know, John Reese Davies. He lives in, he lives in the Isle of Man, and, you know, and then, you know, Max von Saito was nice France, and we scored it in Bulgaria. And, I mean, you know, it was just crazy and traveling all over the world to make that audio. But you've done some other Bibles in addition to that. I have, yeah, yeah, I have. I've done, think I did. Now it's like five different ones, because I like doing different translations, you know, because it's different. I mean, even though it's the same story, the translations people people have translations that they love, you know, whether it's the RSV or it's the New Living Translation or the Nkj or, you know, and so I, I've enjoyed doing them in different translations. That's   Michael Hingson ** 49:25 pretty cool. Do you have any, any additional, additional ones coming out?   Carl Amari ** 49:29 No, no, I've done, I've done done, like, five and, and so I'm more doing, you know, more concentrating now on my radio show, Hollywood, 360, and, and some movie production stuff that I've been working on. And then I'm one of the owners of a podcast company. So we're, we're always putting out, you know, different podcasts and things. And so my plate is very full, although I would love, I think I would love to do some. Thing, like, what you're saying, like, either more Twilight zones, or maybe something like that. It might be, you know, I'd love to do something in the theater or the mind, you know, arena again, too, because I love doing that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:11 I think it'd be a lot of fun to do. Tell me about the podcast,   Carl Amari ** 50:15 yeah. So, um, so we have a podcast company called Gulfstream studios, and we have our main, our main podcast is a is, is. So we're, we, we do a show called, well, there's, there's several podcasts that we're doing, but, but it's the spout is the is the one that's a music oriented we have all the biggest music artists on there. It's really great. So spout is the name of that podcast. And then we're working on, we're working on a Bible podcast. We're going to come out with some a Bible podcast pretty soon. I'm real excited about that more soon. Hopefully you'll have me back when we launch that. Well, yeah, and then, you know, we have, we're always looking for any so I'm ready to, I'm ready to take your podcast onto our platform. Whatever you say. Michael, oh, we'll have to,   Michael Hingson ** 51:10 we'll have to look at that and work it out. But in the meanwhile, I said earlier, I'd love to come on any of the podcasts that you want. And if, yeah, have you read thunder dog,   Carl Amari ** 51:19 no, I didn't know. I didn't have not read it. No. So thunderdog   Michael Hingson ** 51:23 was my story of being in the World Trade Center and getting out and so on. But you should read it, because there are also some, some really poignant parts, like, just to briefly tell that part of the story, I'll send you a video where of a speech I've given, but one of the parts of it is that, as I was running away from tower two, as it was collapsing, because we were at Vesey Street and Broadway, so we were like 100 yards away from tower two when it came down, I turned and ran back the way I came. And as I started to run, I started, I said to myself, and I stayed focused pretty much. But I said to myself at that point, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. Right? I heard a voice as clearly as we are hearing each other now in my head that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle and the rest will take care of itself. Wow. And I had this absolute sense of certainty that if we just continue to work together, we would be fine. We did, and we were but I am very much a a person who believes in the whole concept of God. And for those who who may disagree with me, you're welcome to do that. You'll you'll just have to take that up with God or whatever at some point. But I would love to really explore anytime you you need a guest to come on and be a part of it, and who knows, maybe I'll be good enough to act in a radio show you do.   Carl Amari ** 52:49 I'm sure you would be, sure you would be Michael, but it would be, yeah, but it would   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 be fun to do. But I really enjoy doing all this stuff, and radio, of course, has become such a part of my life for so long, it has helped me become a better speaker. Was I travel and speak all over the world?   Carl Amari ** 53:10 Yeah, wow. Well, I'm a big fan of yours, and, and, but I'd love to read the book, so I'll order it. Can I get it off of Amazon or something like that? You can get   Michael Hingson ** 53:19 it off of Amazon. You can get it from Audible, okay, or wherever. And then I wrote, then we wrote two others. One's called running with Roselle, which was really intended more for kids talking about me growing up, and Roselle my guide dog at the World Trade Center growing up. But more adults buy it than kids. And then last year, we published live like a guide dog. True Stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith, and that one is really about people need to and can learn how to control fear and not let fear overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them. And you can actually learn to use fear as a very powerful tool to help you function, especially in emergencies and unexpected situations. And so live like a guide dog uses lessons I've learned from all of my guide dogs and my wife's service dogs, Fantasia that have taught me so much about learning to control fear. And I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, I've talked about being calm and focused getting out, but I've never taught anyone else how to do it, so live like a guide dog is my solution for that, which is kind of that, that,   Carl Amari ** 54:26 that I'm sure helps a lot of people, you know, that's because fear is, is, it's, it's debilitating, you know? So, yeah, well, that's, but it doesn't need doesn't need to be, that's right, that doesn't need to be, yeah, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to do the Bible stuff, because I learned at a very early age that these theater, these radio shows you under, you listen and you actually interpret them and understand them deeper with the theater of the mind than watching them on television or reading them like, like. I think even reading a book as great as that is, if you heard it dramatized on radio, it's even more powerful. I and so I knew that if I took the Bible, which is the greatest book of all time, and it was dramatized in a way, in a kind of a movie quality way, with sound effects and music and wonderful actors that I thought people would get a deeper meaning of the word. And I think we it. We were successful with that, because so many people have written about it on Amazon and things and saying like I, you know, when I heard the Word of Promise, and when I heard this audio, I had to go and get my Bible and see, does it really say that? You know? So here's people that had read the Bible many, many times, and then they heard the dramatization of it, and were like, wow, I didn't even realize that, you know, that was that happened in the Bible. So it's, it's, it's pretty cool, you know, to read those you know how it's helped people, and it's helped save souls, and it's just been a great you know, it's been a very rewarding experience. Have you   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 ever taken it and divided it up and put it on the radio? Well, that's   Carl Amari ** 56:12 one of the not in the radio, but we're going to do some podcast with, we're going to, we're going to be doing something really, really unique with, with one of my later ones that I did not the Word of Promise, but a different one. And, and it's going to, it's going to be really, really special. I can't wait to talk about it on your show. Looking   Michael Hingson ** 56:30 forward to it, yeah, well, we have had a lot of fun doing this, and I'm going to have to sneak away. So I guess we'll have to stop, darn but we do have to continue this. And, and I'd love to find ways to work together on projects and be a part of your world and love you to be more a part of mine. I'm really glad that we finally had a chance to get together and do all this. It's been a lot of fun. Me   Carl Amari ** 56:53 too, Michael, me too. It's really, I said it was an honor, and it really was an honor. And thank you so much. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 56:59 for all of you listening, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of unstoppable mindset. Love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, or go to our web page where we host the where we have the podcast, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, love to get your thoughts wherever you're listening. Please give us a five star rating. We value that very highly. We really appreciate you giving u

John Marvin grew up in Kansas as a member of a family with significant medical experience. John's father, for example, was a family physician in a small Western Kansas town. John describes some about his life and how his thoughts and attitudes were greatly influenced by his father. Late in his high school career John told his dad that he did not want to grow up to be a doctor because, as he put it, he didn't want to work as hard as his father worked. John will explain that to us. As he also put it, his comment came from a young naïve boy.   In college John settled on securing a marketing degree. After college he ended up going deeply into marketing and eventually he entered the optical industry specializing in optometry.   John and I have some wonderful discussions about self growth, leadership and how to help people and companies grow. I got, and I think you will get, many great ideas from John's experiences and that we all will be the better for what John has to say and teach us.       About the Guest:   John D. Marvin is an entrepreneur and dynamic leader with a proven track record of success in healthcare, wellness, and the eyecare industry. As President and CEO of Texas State Optical (TSO), he has transformed the organization into one of the largest and most respected networks of independent optometrists in the United States, generating upwards of $110 million in annual revenue. With over two decades of experience at TSO, John has cultivated a member-owned cooperative that empowers optometrists to operate independently while benefiting from robust centralized support. His leadership has been pivotal in fostering a culture of innovation, professional growth, and exceptional patient care. John's career spans over 40 years, during which he has held executive roles across various industries, including marketing, consulting, and healthcare. His entrepreneurial spirit is evident in his strategic leadership during TSO's transition from a retail chain to a cooperative network in 2001. Under his guidance, TSO shifted its focus from product-driven services to comprehensive medical eyecare, reinforcing its reputation as a patient-centered organization. Beyond TSO, John serves as President of Texas Eyecare Partners and Health and Wellness Consulting. As a lifelong advocate of personal growth, John has studied the transformative power of mindset and the “inner game” of success. His insights into leadership, achievement, and business management have made him a sought-after speaker and certified John Maxwell Professional Coach. John passionately shares his experiences to inspire others to unlock their potential, offering actionable strategies to overcome challenges and drive meaningful change. John's dedication to education and collaboration is evident in his efforts to support emerging professionals in the field of optometry. He has fostered strong relationships with the University of Houston's College of Optometry and the Texas Optometric Association, contributing to scholarships, professional development programs, and initiatives that promote medical optometry. Through his vision and unwavering commitment to excellence, John D. Marvin exemplifies the principles of leadership, empowerment, and innovation, making a lasting impact on the eyecare industry and beyond. Ways to connect John:   https://www.facebook.com/jdmarvin  https://www.linkedin.com/in/jdmarvin/  https://www.instagram.com/jdmarvin/ https://tso.com/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone. Once again, wherever you happen to be, I'm your host on unstoppable mindset, Mike Hingson, or you can call me Mike, whichever you prefer. And our guest today is John D Marvin. John is an entrepreneur. Has been an entrepreneur for quite a while, and he has been involved in a number of different kind of endeavors over his life. And he's worked, worked in the eye care industry a bunch, and is now in charge of Texas State Optical. We're going to learn more about that and and all the other things I don't know whether I care, does me a whole lot of good directly, but it's fun to talk about anyway. No, no doubt. So John, I want to really welcome you. I'm glad we finally made this work. I'm glad we got a chance to connect. So welcome to unstoppable mindset.   John D Marvin ** 02:13 Well, thank you, Mike. It's a real pleasure to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:15 Well, I'm glad that we we get a chance to really talk. We haven't really done too many podcasts on eye care and optical stuff, so I'm glad to be able to do it. But I'd like to start, as I'd love to do so often, tell us about kind of the early John growing up, and go from there.   John D Marvin ** 02:33 Okay, I was born and raised in Kansas. I that that's northern Texas, right? That's northern Texas. That's right, yeah, I actually grew up in western Kansas. I was born in Kansas City, but I grew up in western Kansas, and my father is a family physician, and had the kind of stereotypical country doctor practice small town, 2000 people, and my mother was his office manager for a number of years. And so it was a kind of a family business. And I have three siblings, sisters, and so we grew up in a small Mayberry type town, and it was great riding bicycles till the street lights came on at night, and catching fireflies and all that kind of good stuff. And then I decided to go to school. I chose to go to school in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and graduated, it's an emphasis in marketing and marketing and business administration, and ended up in the ad agency business for a little bit of a time, and just kind of really decided that wasn't for me, and ended up from there going into pharmaceutical sales. And really enjoyed that, and enjoyed the the outside sales aspects of it and calling on doctors. And my territory was western Kansas, so I used to say, and still refer to it as my territory looked like my high school football schedule. So we would go to these small towns. And of course, most everyone out there knew my father, and so the typical problem of trying to get past the front desk was made a little easier because people knew my family, and from that, I ended up taking an administrative, marketing administrators position with a group of surgeons in in Wichita, and that led to introduction and eating some ophthalmologists in Houston. Them and followed a job opportunity I had with them and came to Houston in 1989 I've been here ever since, but it was after four years of working with them, I ended up going out on my own and started my own business, which was Marketing Management Group, which did consumer research, and then we would develop marketing strategies based on that. And one of my clients, early clients, was Texas State Optical. And because of my background in eye care, both in Wichita, Kansas and in Houston, I had a better I got some insight into the consumer. And so the work I did with Texas State Optical was a lot we did a lot of work, and did several studies with them, and that kind of introduced me to the whole group of franchisees that made up the Texas State Optical organization. Subsequently, I helped them organize, the franchisees organize, and in the late 90s, 1999 I was hired by the franchisees to put together a Franchise Association, and through that, ultimately help them acquire the company, purchase it, and from that during that process, was asked if I would be willing to come on board as the new president of the company once they purchased it. And that was in 2001 and I've been president ever since. So here you go. It kind of takes you from Small Town Living to big city operations and a network of about 100 optometry offices.   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 So what exactly is Texas State Optical? Or maybe first, what was it and how is it morphed over time?   John D Marvin ** 06:56 Well, originally it was founded by four brothers in 1936 in Southeast Texas, little town called Beaumont, and famous for a lot of things in that part of the state. One of them is Janis Joplin, the others, Big Bopper and George Jones and but it also was the birthplace of Texas State Optical. And they grew a network of privately owned they owned them all over 300 locations throughout Texas, Mexico, Oklahoma and Arkansas, Louisiana and and then in the early 70s, they sold it to a pharmaceutical company, ironically, the same one that I had worked for when I was calling on western Kansas. But when they sold it, it got converted to a traditional franchise model, and it stayed that way until the franchisees purchased it in 2001 when we I was involved, and we turned it into a brand license business, taking that iconic license that had been around Texas optical since the 30s, 1930s and and then turning around and licensing the use of that brand to young optometrist who wanted to own their own practice, but saw the use of that brand as kind of instant credibility, because a lot of people were familiar with that brand.   Michael Hingson ** 08:40 So what does it provide? What did one of the organization provide under the brand? Well,   John D Marvin ** 08:46 we use the use of the brand, and so you got immediate notoriety in terms of just people's awareness of it, but also we put together kind of a la carte menu of optional services and support and resources that licensees could either take advantage of or not, and it was a really hands off model. We didn't have any, and still don't have any operational control over the way business was done. We We influenced that through best practices and sharing of information, but certainly we didn't require have any requirements of the way that they would operate. Reality is most private practice optometrists operate pretty well, and so we were there to kind of coach and help, but mainly it was them using our brand name, which had a really strong consumer value to it.   Michael Hingson ** 09:44 And so what kind of changes when the franchisees all joined together and bought the company and so on? How have you and they changed it over the years.   John D Marvin ** 09:59 I. I think the biggest change from 1999 to 2001 when they bought it, and to this day, has been the culture of the company. And that is, you know, it's something of a franchise opportunity, yeah, and a lot of your listeners probably either own franchises. Thought about franchises, and you know, it might you and I spent the next year trying to decide we were going to own a franchise. And we'd go out and do all sorts of research, and we'd look into this one and that one, and what kind of industry we want, and we'd finally select one that we were really impressed with. Thought about for great opportunity. We'd pay our $50,000 franchise fee, and about the second or third day of owning that franchise, we would decide that these people don't know anything about this business that we're in, and there's just this inherent adversarial relationship that exists between a franchisee and a franchisor. Some for good reason, some just because of the independent, entrepreneurial nature of a franchisee. Well, when the franchisees owned the company, they owned the franchise, or that adversarial dynamic kind of left. And so now there's nobody to kind of blame except yourself, and people are inclined not to do that as much. And so there was a greater tendency to kind of work together, work through things, come up with solutions to problems or resources that were needed. And it just created a much more homogeneous type of culture, and to the point where our annual meeting we host every year is referred to as our family reunion. And so we gather everyone together. It's really an atmosphere of all of us being as one family, sharing the same kind of core values, and all out to do the same thing, and that is just provide great quality eye care for our communities. And so that, that is a big change. Of course, there's always the things like collective purchasing, education and training. The main difference in those areas are engagement. When you are asked by a franchisor to engage in certain activities, there's that inherent reluctance to do that in our organization. There's an inherent acceptance of it because it comes from a colleague, it comes from others and doctors are more leading doctors than they are being led by some set of suits someplace in the Northeast.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah, and that is such an extremely important thing to be able to really make it a family, a disciplined family, but still a family nevertheless, which is kind of cool. I'm curious about something being blind, and having been blind my whole life, and involved with blindness consumer organizations, one of the things that we have found often is that most people in the eye care industry, primarily in the ophthalmological industry, which is kind of a little bit more relevant to us, but tend not to really have a lot of knowledge about blindness and blind people. And so, for example, there are so many stories of a person going into the office of an ophthalmologist, for example, maybe they're losing their eyesight, but the ophthalmologist examines them and for whatever reason, will say things like, you're going blind. I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do, and walk out and never provide any other kinds of resources or knowledge to help the person who's losing eyesight. I don't know whether you see that, given where you are or what your thoughts are on that, but I'd be interested to get your thoughts because it seems to me that there's a lot of opportunity to do significant education about blindness and low vision to recognize that the reality is, blindness isn't the problem. It's people's attitudes traditionally that are the problem.   John D Marvin ** 14:28 That's an excellent point. Mike, I you know my first thoughts are the profession of optometry is really involved in preventing right blindness, and so it's kind of one of the few areas of healthcare that is more prevention oriented than other areas. Most areas are treatment oriented. In other words, you become sick. And then we treat you right, and the profession of optometry is all about we talk to people all the time about protecting your vision and preventing problems from happening. Now, as we see patients that end up either through glaucoma or some form of pathology, retinal issues, start to lose their vision. There comes a point early in that process where they are, frankly, they are outside of the scope of care that an optometrist can provide. So they end up being referred to an ophthalmologist. That being said, there are several optometrists across the country that have decided to devote themselves to low vision, and that's kind of a form of blind and what I would call blindness care, and where it's not complete, there is some level of vision there, but it needs a lot of enhancement, either through equipment or through other types of therapeutics practices. And there are optometrists who say, I'm not going to sell glasses. I'm not going to focus on contacts. I'm going to just provide a low vision clinic. And they're not not there's not a large number of them, but there are some, and what I've experienced in that is it does take a particular type of practitioner to be successful with that. And when I say successful, I mean, to be able to establish the type of patient doctor relationship that actually produces some really positive outcomes and helps people better manage their loss of vision, either whether that's progressive and eventually will become complete, or whether It's stalled at a point where they just cannot function without special aid, like I said, equipment, or some type of therapeutics. And there's just not a lot of people go into Optometry for the refractive side of things, and and so there's, there's not that motivation, really, to learn much about it. We do as an organization. We're very involved with prevent blindness as a national organization, and we'd also have some involvement with low vision clinics that are in the Houston Medical Center. But outside of that, you're right. There's not a whole lot of folks that understand it, probably, or maybe it's just they don't have the patience for it, because it does require a different kind of patient care approach, even   Michael Hingson ** 17:55 so what I wonder is, if there is an opportunity, maybe to provide additional education, so that if your your franchisees, for example, encounter a person who's losing eyesight and they and they realize that that they can help refer them to sources or resources that can assist because part of the problem is that, typically in society, blindness is viewed as such a horrible, devastating thing. And I understand that eyesight is a very wonderful thing, and people want to have it, but the reality is for a variety of reasons that doesn't work for everyone. The problem is that we have so much fear of blindness that we don't tend to deal with and I just wonder if there might be a way to provide some sort of a system or program that would help teach your people that blindness isn't really the end of the world, which is not to say, don't try to prevent it if you can, but when you can't, you can also be an additional source. To say, here are places where you can go, or here are some things that you can learn.   John D Marvin ** 19:16 Well, I do think that it's important, and I'm aware of many, keeping in mind that our members who own locations that use our brand are independent, we have provided them local organizations, clinics, things like that, which help them in referring people that need that kind of help and in education, I think also an important factor is that it's not just the patient that can use that it's the patient's family, because it, while it's perceived as something that you know you. I know that people value their sight, and the thought of losing it and becoming blind is is frightening the individual, but it also is frightening and disruptive to family, who father, mother, wife, husband, son or daughter, to deal with the changes in lifestyle that are required to accommodate that. Loss of vision is significant. You mentioned you've been blind since birth, and that's certainly one group of people, but there's an awful lot of people that end up experiencing blindness when they're in their 30s or 40s, after they've had a large portion of their life with vision. And it's, I don't want to say it's easier by any means. I first of all, I have no right in even suggesting that, but it's a different experience, for sure, not ever having had vision, versus having had it for a number of years and then losing it. And sometimes it might be as scary and frightening for the family around that person as it is the patient themselves. And so we do place a high value on getting people the kind of help and resources they need to better adjust to those changes.   Michael Hingson ** 21:28 Well, when I was born, I actually became blind because of what we now call retinopathy or prematurity, which originally was retro enterofibroplasia, which is harder to spell, but I love the term anyway. At about four months of age, it was discovered that I was blind, and the doctors told my parents they ought to just send me off to a home, because no blind child could ever grow up to be a contributor to society, and all I would do would be a drain on the family and then later on society. And my parents were very unusual in taking the stand that, no, you're wrong. He can grow up to do whatever he wants, and we're going to give him that opportunity. And that was, and really to a very large degree today, still is, a very unusual attitude to take, because we fear blindness so much, and while I appreciate the reality of eyesight is very important for most people, what I would love to see are ways to create more of an understanding so that People understand that blindness isn't the end of the world, and that's what what we see all too often in society in general, which is unfortunate, and you're right. I don't know whether it's easier if you're blind from the outset or become blind later in life. I know any number of people who became blind later in life, who went to programs where philosophically, they were taught blindness was not a problem, and they learned that they could continue to be contributors to society, and they tend to intend to Do that, as opposed to many others from both camps and from birth or not who never understand. Blindness isn't going to be the end of the road if people let it be. So it's it's just one of those conundrums that we end up having to deal with on a regular basis.   John D Marvin ** 23:38 The name of your podcast dealing with mindset, right? A lot of it is exactly that. And if you're find yourself in a you know, the child who's born blind can either have a support system and family and parents that impact his his or her mindset in a way that creates the expectation and understanding that it it doesn't have to be limiting. And same goes with someone who's blind later in life, right? It's a matter of how you look at and decide for yourself. I mean, we all know people that, whether it's a loss of a one of the most five senses, the important senses, sight or hearing, so forth, there is a natural mind. There's one set of mind people that have a mindset that, oh, poor you. Now you've got insurmountable challenges in your life, and this is going to be difficult the rest of your life. And then the other mindset that many parents have recognizing their opportunity they have with their child is to say, yes, that's you. But that doesn't have to define you, that doesn't limit you. You can overcome those things and and I think that that is even in our business, where you have someone who comes into the office and through some type of diagnostic testing, it's determined that they are losing their sight, and that the natural outcome of this progression of pathology will be the total loss of sight. We have the opportunity there, at that point, to affect their mindset, yeah, and to either tell them this is a circumstance that will not limit you or define you, and here are some resources and education materials and opportunities in that area that can help you better understand what you're living with and how that you can overcome that, just from the census standpoint, because It doesn't have to be something you have to overcome in life, per se. It just has to be an accommodation you make, because you can't see when other people can right. And it is all about mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 It is all about mindset. No doubt about it, you're absolutely correct in that regard. And it is, it is something that we'll all be dealing with for a while, but hopefully over time, the mindset of people will change to recognize that there are always alternatives. Being a Star Trek fan, I love Spock and Kirk who are always talking about there are always options, and there are always ways to get around doing things or to accomplish things that you might not think about, but you have to be multi dimensional in your thought process.   John D Marvin ** 26:52 Well, the other exciting aspect of all of this is the the fact that those with growth mindsets are working diligently on technologies that can actually supplant the deficiency and come up with ways to correct blindness. And so there we may even, in our lifetime, live to a point where the pathological condition that you were born with doesn't have to be permanent. It can be reversed using technology that provides you with as good, if not better, vision than people who weren't born in that same situation.   Michael Hingson ** 27:33 Yeah, the only people who never will come out of it are politicians, because they take dumb pills when they become politicians. So we can pick up them.   John D Marvin ** 27:40 Well, listen, just you could be blind and still be able to see, right? Yeah, that   Michael Hingson ** 27:47 leaves them out. Yeah. No, I understand. I understand they're fun to pick on. But you what? What really made you decide to go into the eye care industry, into that, that whole environment, what, what attracted you to it, or was it just sort of so natural? Well, obviously, that's a mindset. Yeah,   John D Marvin ** 28:10 there's a couple of things. Think the thing that attracted me to kind of eye care in general, and put ophthalmology and Optometry in the same bucket for this. What attracted me to was this whole area of health care that I kind of grew up in with my father and family practice in a small town. Because, you know, my family practice in the 60s and 70s was a whole different discipline than it is today. Oh, I know, you know, especially in a small town where the closest specialist, if you would, is 90 miles away. And so my father had to be what we call today, functionally, you know, a functional medicine, meaning that he had to be able to kind of treat the whole person. I mean, he used to be very proud of the fact that a large percentage of the kids that were in the school that I grew up in, he delivered and so, you know, there was no obstetrician in this small town. So if a woman became pregnant, then he provided her prenatal care. He gave, he delivered the child, and then he gave the provided the pediatric care afterwards. And so having that sense of kind of the global care of of someone kind of gave me a real appreciation for the kind of the system, the the systemic aspects of health. And when I was given an opportunity to get into the eye care business. Because I saw it more as getting into the healthcare business, and even though it was very narrow, defined in eye care, it gave me a connection. And I I'm a big believer that you start down a path and you follow it. And what maybe forest and trees and gardens, they may turn into desert or mountains or valleys or otherwise. So when I started, I really didn't know necessarily where it would go. And I guess you could even back it up and say that my whole entry into the pharmaceutical industry kind of started me down that path and and then that led to being in the practitioner side, which ultimately led to going from ophthalmology into Optometry. I frankly think that all of that background best prepared me to do what I'm doing today, and understanding the whole system of eye care, not just refractions and glasses and contacts, right?   Michael Hingson ** 31:11 Well, you know, and you started out in in the whole marketing world, as opposed to going off and becoming a doctor directly, which which gave you a different perspective. So it really makes sense as to what you're saying and it but you've had exposure to both sides, and that has to really help you in terms of doing the job that you've chosen to do.   John D Marvin ** 31:38 Yeah, I think you're right. I remember having the discussion with my father because as I was like a junior in high school and, and as most juniors you know, you start thinking about what you're going to do when you graduate high school and, and I was graduating high school at a time that I had a draft number given to me, there was a war over in Vietnam that was still going on, and so I, you know, there for a period of time, I didn't know whether I would even have a choice. Yeah, it turns out by the time I actually that last year between junior and senior, the war had really started to wind down. And while I got a draft number, it was very high, and the likelihood of me actually being drafted into service was very low. And so I made some decisions about what I was going to do post high school, and I remember having the discussion with my father about would he be disappointed if I decided I didn't want to be a physician? And he assured me that he wouldn't be disappointed, but he was curious as to why I was not interested in doing that, and I told him, I said, just to be candid, I don't know if I want to work as hard as you do, because at that time, I had spent many Christmases with him, not at home, even though, our town, I mean, you could almost walk to the hospital. Our Town was small enough that, but he was taking care of people in the hospital on Christmas Day or delivering a baby on Christmas Day, and he just, you know, it was clear that in that profession, the way he practiced it in those days was that the patients came first, and the family understood that. And we were all in the doctor business to in that respect, and this whole concept of work life balance was, you know, no one looked at things like that. I mean, everyone understood that this was a commitment that had been made, and it involved the entire family. So I told him, I said, I don't know if I'm willing to do that or not. And so I thought at that time, I decided that I was going to pursue a career in theology, and so that determined where I went to school. And about after my first year in school, I the university I had chosen, their whole theological department was more pastoral, and I wasn't interested in that. I was more evangelical. I was more interested in being an evangelist and and so I not having that in front of me. I decided that it switched to a marketing degree. And it turns out that to be a pretty good evangelist, you got to be a little bit of a marketing person yourself. Anyway, true. So, so I ended up going down that path.   Michael Hingson ** 34:53 Well, I would say if you had chosen the pastoral approach, you would have been working just. Just hard as a doctor. Oh, very much. So, yeah, but I guess I would also ask this whole issue of not working as hard given what you do today, how's that working out for you? Well,   John D Marvin ** 35:14 those were words of a very naive young guy. Yeah, because I didn't take I didn't understand the fact that if you're going to accomplish anything, it's going to require hard work, and you need a family that understands what your what your passion is, and what you've decided to do, and because it is, I mean, no one builds a career by themselves. They they build a career with the involvement and support of other people, and if, if they, if those beliefs aren't aligned, then you're going to end up in conflict and be constantly be torn between what it is you believe you're wanting to do with your life, versus your obligations, your other obligations. And put it   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 that way, well, you've been involved in the whole mindset and activity of being a business leader for a long time. What kind of key lessons have you learned along the way about personal growth?   John D Marvin ** 36:21 I think the thank you for that question. I think the one thing that I have learned, that I've tried to pass on to people is start, begin we I think that we naturally have this reluctance to take risk, because we don't want to fail at anything and and so we kind of take the approach that, well, if I want to pursue something, whether it be personal development or growth or even some profession, I need to know everything there is to know about it before I start it. And that is just not true. The only way you learn is by starting I have a friend and acquaintance who his career and his profession is leading people on climbs of Mount Everest. So that's his job. If you want to climb Mount Everest, I can hook you up with a guy that will help you do it. And it's a fascinating profession that he's in. And I asked him one time, how do you learn how to climb mountains. You know, how do you learn this? He said the only way to learn how to climb mountains is by climbing   Michael Hingson ** 37:46 mountains. I was gonna say, to do it, yes. And   John D Marvin ** 37:49 so I think the number one thing is to start. And if you're committed to it and you start, you'll figure it out. The rest of it, because there are no failures, there's maybe a setback or two, but as long as you keep focused on where you want to be and moving forward and getting better and learning, you'll figure things out. And I think so personal growth is really a decision and a commitment to continual learning, continual improvement and and you're never too late to get started. It's never too late, even if you're at 80 some years of age and maybe limited health wise, you can still start because there's so much, there's so many different resources today that are available to people. I mean, I got an iPad Mike, that's, I bet you I've got three 400 books on it. And, you know, used to be you couldn't have three or 400 books without a library in your house. Now you can have one iPad on a memory card. And I was just, I had a doctor's appointment earlier today, and while I was waiting in the reception, I pulled out my phone and I started reading a book that I'm reading, you know, and I had, didn't have to carry the book The lot of people do, lot of people have, but I was able to do that. And then there's what's available in terms of resources, of books to read are just unlimited. So I think that there's, there's all sorts of opportunities, just a matter of getting started and doing it. Second is consistency. Everybody can start. Few people can be consistent, or few people are consistent. We all know the classic, never if you're if you're someone who goes to a gym and works out, you know. Avoid that gem the first month of the year in January, because it is overrun with people who are starting their new year, and then by February, you also know that you're back to normal, because most people don't stay consistent. So starting and then becoming consistent are the two things that are probably most important, that I've learned   Michael Hingson ** 40:25 well, and that kind of leads to something I was thinking about, and that is the connection between mindset and long term achievement. Because it would seem to me that, as you point out with the gym, the people who create the mindset that I'm going to do this and really decide that that's what they're going to do, are more likely to have analyzed it and made that decision intelligently and then we'll stick with it, than people who just go off and say, I'm going to do it, but really haven't established A mindset, right?   John D Marvin ** 40:59 That's exactly true. And you know, people tend to focus on volume as opposed to continuity. And what I mean by that is people go to the gym and they they put all this intensity into the first day they haven't worked out in weeks or months, or even maybe a few years, and then the next day they're so sore they can't get out of bed and they can't so they decide they're going to take the next day off rest, and then that turns into a week off. And I'm a student of John Maxwell, the author, and he talks about what he calls the rule of five, and he illustrates it by saying that if you have a tree in your backyard that you're wanting to take out, you can take an ax and you can go out there and you can swing that Ax five times, and put down the ax and come back tomorrow morning, hit it five times. Come back tomorrow morning, hit it five times. And over a period of time, that tree will come down, or you can go out there and just try to chop and chop and chop, and that tree will defeat you, because you will run out of energy and you'll be too tired to finish it, but if you'll just be consistent over a time with the rule of five, and he talks about it in any profession, if you want to get good at it, figure out what are the five things you need to do every single day to grow in that direction and to accomplish what you need to accomplish. And so I think that you're right that over a period of time, long term success is not done through intensity. It's done through consistency. And he also says, you know, you're never going to change anything in your life until you change what you do daily? And that is very, very true.   Michael Hingson ** 43:09 I know I haven't really been the greatest at doing a lot of exercising and so on, and a lot of walking, and especially here in the winter, it gets really cold, and so I tend not to do it. But what I figured out, actually, a couple of years ago was we have a wonderful, great room with an island in the middle of it, and I will just put on a book and listen to it and do laps around the bar, and I'll get up to 10 and 15,000 steps a day just walking around the bar. Now it's not going uphill and downhill, but still a lot of good exercise. And I find that not only does that work, but I enjoy it, because I get to read at the same time or do other things. Of course, my dog probably thinks I'm nuts, and my cat, my cat avoids me. But by the same token, you know, it is exercise, and I found that I have no problem really doing that every day, absolutely.   John D Marvin ** 44:12 And you know, we we live in a gym, yeah, and whether it's your room, your great room with an island, or whether it's a backyard or your neighborhood, we lived in a gym. I think that was illustrated in one of the Rocky movies really well when he was held up in northern Russia and just worked out using the materials that were with him. And so there really is no excuse to doing something, and doing something is better than doing nothing at all, and doing something every day will deliver unbelievable results over time.   Michael Hingson ** 44:59 It's a. All about establishing the mindset. Yes, it is. Well, you know, you've done this work for a long time. What kind of advice would you give to people starting out to help them get the mindset and achieve what they want to do with their goals?   John D Marvin ** 45:19 Well, first of all, I think developing and writing a personal growth plan, and I mean writing, setting down and starting, for instance, I made a decision several years ago that I wanted to get better at communication. So that was a decision. And the side of all the things that I wanted to try to commit to developing or growing in or learning, I picked communication. Why did you want as one of it? Because I felt like it was extremely important that you never accomplish, or I didn't believe that I was going to accomplish what I wanted to in life without the ability to communicate well with others, whether that be my spouse or whether it be the people I work with the customers I serve. I wanted to be good at communicating. I wanted to become good at that. I also had a friend tell me one time said, you know, if you will read five books on any subject, you'll know more about that subject than 99% of the people. And so I decided, Okay, I'm going to find five books on communication, and I'm going to commit myself to reading those over the course of the next year. And I just, you know, went out and started trying to determine what are really good books about communication. Some of them I kind of knew, like How to Win Friends and Influence People. That was one that I knew. Okay, I'm going to put that one on the list. Now I need four more, and one of them I knew that John Maxwell had written. So I you know, everybody communicates, but few people connect, and I said, Okay, I'm going to be another one. So I just kind of put together my little library of five books, and I started so I had developed very narrow and limited, but I had developed my own personal growth plan as relates to communication. So as I would tell my grandson, or I would tell a friend, if you want to start on developing a mindset and developing personal growth, sit down and make a plan for what you're going to do. And it's interesting, because if you'll ask people, tell me about your and I do this with people who work for me, and when I'm hiring, tell me about your personal growth plan. What is your personal growth plan? And you know, most people don't even know what I'm talking about, so they start making stuff up, and it becomes real obvious that they don't have one. From my employees, I require that as a part of their job and their annual performance review, we go over their personal growth plan. I want them to become more valuable over the course of this next year, because to themselves, because if they do, then they become more valuable to the company, right? And so I would instruct somebody to sit down and start and make a plan and identify something you want to be better at and and start growing in those areas that that described as starting with communication, has grown now to seven different areas in my life, and I've got at least five, in some cases, more books in each of those areas. And so I've got a very busy personal growth plan that I I work on each year.   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 Do you find that, as you read books on these subjects, as you're dealing with your personal growth, that in reality, you know a lot of the stuff already, at least to a degree. But by the same token, reading what others have written tends to drive the point home a whole lot more. And I ask that from the standpoint of common sense.   John D Marvin ** 49:40 Well, I think so. I mean how to win, which   Michael Hingson ** 49:42 doesn't mean that you don't learn things from the books, but, but a lot of it is, is stuff that you Intuit   John D Marvin ** 49:50 Yeah, I think that you know, a great example that comes to mind is How to Win Friends And yes, people that book, if you read it, it's like, well, yeah, naturally. Of course, but if you read it and you focus, you know, if you read it with the attitude, I want to learn something from this, then you begin to internalize what you're reading. And as you internalize it, you develop more cognitive, a cognitive awareness of it. And what I find super interesting is that book is on my list every year, so I commit myself to read that book every year. So now you know, this year will be probably my 15th, 16th time reading it. What I find fascinating is, I'll read the same chapter I've read, and I'll learn something new, something new, yeah, each time. Because, much like the saying about you can't step in the same stream twice, because it's not the same stream and you're not the same person. Same goes with reading material. You can read that book a second time, and you'll get something out of it, because you're not the same person that you were the first time you read it. And as you mature in your understanding, you get more knowledge out of the reading. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 51:17 Which? Which makes perfect sense, which also says a lot about the quality of the author. But you're right. You will always, if you look for new things to learn, you'll find new things to learn absolutely, which is what makes it so cool. And I I tell people all the time, and I'm not sure they always understand it. If I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else by being involved in this podcast, then I'm not doing my job. Because I believe every episode gives me as much, if not more, of an opportunity to learn as guests or all the people who listen, which is why I think it's so much fun, because I think that learning is as fun as it gets.   John D Marvin ** 52:05 It is, I mean, you're absolutely right, you know, they also, there's a you never learn anything quite as well as when you have to teach it, yeah, you know. And in a way, by hosting a podcast, your your preparation for it, you're setting down, your concentration on it forces you to absorb from every interview that you do, and you can't help but walk away with being different than it was when you sat down to start it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:42 one of my favorite books is a science fiction book written by Robert Heinlein. It's called the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. And I don't know whether you read my science fiction. I   John D Marvin ** 52:52 don't, but that sounds interesting. So   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 the basic premise is, it takes place in 2075 there's a hint, and it's all about the moon, which is being controlled by the lunar authority on earth. And it really parallels the American Revolution. The difference is that a computer on the moon, as they put it, wakes up and helps in doing the revolution that eventually gets Moon free from the earth, but one of the major characters is Professor Bernardo dela Paz, who is a teacher. And one of the things that the that the storyteller describes on a regular basis is how Professor dela Paz can teach on basically any subject, as long as he stays at least one lesson ahead of the people who he's teaching, which often does. So he teaches so many different things, but all he does is works to stay just a little bit ahead of the people that he's teaching, so that he can go back and teach it, and of course, as as you and I would say when he's teaching it, he also learns a whole lot more. But I think it's such a clever book.   John D Marvin ** 54:11 It sounds like it science fiction, but if I if that, when that strikes me that'll be one I put down to read.   Michael Hingson ** 54:23 I think it's the I believe it's high lines better. His best book. A lot of people talk about another one called Stranger in a Strange Land, which is about Mars and the earth. But I think that the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Was his best book, most imaginative book, which is kind of fun, yeah, but you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that I've just it's always stuck with me that dela Paz did that well. So over the time, being the president and CEO of Texas State Optical, i. Uhm, how has that shaped or changed your your views on leadership? Because I'm sure you've, you've had lots to do and lots to think about. I'm sure it's had an effect on you.   John D Marvin ** 55:12 Yeah, I, I think the biggest impact has been it's, it's of what it's required of me in in developing my leadership abilities and deep and making those abilities effective towards an outcome. And let me try to shed on that I mentioned earlier. I'm a student of Maxwell, and Maxwell has a definition of leadership is influence, and and he said leadership is is influence. It's nothing more than that. And, and so at first I didn't know what that meant. And then, as he goes on to explain, and it makes sense, oftentimes, you will, the leadership is not a matter of title. It's not a matter of position. Leadership is influence and the ability to influence. And you can walk into a room and you will observe the group, and in one corner, maybe somebody that is obviously the focus of the attention of the others, and that person is exerting leadership influence. They may not be the may not have title, and they may not be in any position of authority over the others, but the others will follow that person, because that person has influence on them. And so I've in my understanding of that, and then trying to live that I've seen that develop in my own ability. And then I have to sit down and say, okay, if I'm going to be a leader of my team, my executives that will report to me, how am I going to provide that influence. And so you begin to break that down and try to figure out because everyone's different. I mean, I I have four people that report to me, each one of them, I will have to affect and influence those people differently. And it starts with understanding them. And so what it's done is it's helped me to really understand that principle that offered by Maxwell, and then how to incorporate that into my life, so that I feel now confident in my ability to be a leader of any group or situation I find myself in, and I've just agreed to accept a new responsibility in a trade association, and I have confidence that I can provide a strong level of leadership, not because I'm the smartest person in the room, but because I have the ability of providing influence over that organization or in that group through better understanding of others that I Have a position over, so to speak. But you know, it's like the best arenas to develop leadership is a volunteer organization, because that's the only way you're going to get anything done, is to have influence, because these people don't have to do anything that you say. And so oftentimes, if you have the authority, you misuse it, and you provide nothing in the way of leadership to a group. That happens all the time.   Michael Hingson ** 59:13 I think that too many, and I use the term in quotes, leaders, think that the whole idea is that they're the boss. Well, bosses are not necessarily leaders, and you're right. Leaders are not necessarily bosses. Directly. It is all about influence. And unfortunately, all too often, the people who have influence may not be the designated leader, but then the leaders or bosses get jealous of those people, which is also extremely unfortunate they don't get it.   John D Marvin ** 59:45 It's a it can be threatening if you're a boss and you've got people that are supposed to report to you and they're listening or being influenced by someone else who may not be. Intentionally trying to subvert the boss. It's just they, they're more effective in that and so that's threatening. And so oftentimes, given that authority, they misuse it. And   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:15 the good leaders, however, when they see that happening, will try to go and understand from in part, the person who's the real influencer, what it is that they need to improve on to be able to be more effective. But that happens so rarely, by comparison to the number of people who are out there.   John D Marvin ** 1:00:38 Yeah, it's too often politics, and I don't mean that in the government sense, but corporate politics determines positions of authority, and you end up with a bunch of very ill equipped people with an awful lot of leadership responsibilities, but lacking in any kind of real leadership skill,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:02 yeah, which is something that we need to devote more time to teaching, but people also need to be willing to learn it, and that gets to be a challenge. Well, I have to tell you, this has been fun, and I know you have other things to do in the course of the day and enjoying the weather down there, so I want to let you go, but I really have enjoyed having you on and I've enjoyed all the different insights that you've brought. So I really appreciate you being here to do all of that. So maybe we'll have it again. That would be kind of fun.   John D Marvin ** 1:01:41 Well, my I've thoroughly enjoyed this as I mean, you make it so easy to visit. You're You're a tremendous host and good interviewer, good questions. You threw a couple at me there that I had to really stop and think about. And so anytime you'd be willing to have me back. I'd love to join you again sometime.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:02 Well, I want to thank you, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. We really appreciate you being here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on today and what we've talked about. You're welcome to email me. It's easy. It's Michael, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I V, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is at www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, love to hear from you. We're always looking for more people to chat with. And in part, my motivation is I want to learn too. But the more people who come on, the more people we get to learn about who themselves are unstoppable. So please don't hesitate to refer people to it. And you know, John, you as well. We really value that wherever you listening, give us a five star rating. We value that. We appreciate your ratings and and love them. But once again, John, I want to thank you. This has been absolutely fun, and I'm glad you came   John D Marvin ** 1:03:13 well. Thank you. Thank you very much.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:20 you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Podcasts, reviews, interviews, essays, and more at the Ancillary Review of Books.Please consider supporting ARB's Patreon!Credits:Guest: Christian P. HainesTitles: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein, and The Terraformers by Annalee Newitz Host: Jake Casella BrookinsMusic by Giselle Gabrielle GarciaArtwork by Rob PattersonOpening poem by Bhartṛhari, translated by John BroughTranscriber: Kate DollarhydeReferences:Stephen King's The Shining and CarrieRafael Bernal's His Name Was DeathMichel Nieva's Dengue BoyDaryl Gregory's When We Were RealAdrian Tchaikovsky's Service Model, Christian's review for ARBIo9Our Opinions Are CorrectHeinlein's Starship TroopersChristian's The Terraformers review for LARBNewitz's AutonomousHeinlein's Farmer in the Sky, The Rolling StonesArcherMilton FriedmanOrwell's 1984Rand's Atlas ShruggedJames S.A. Corey's The ExpanseKim Stanley Robinson's Mars TrilogyUrsula K. Le Guin's The DispossessedIan McDonald's New Moon trilogyFrank Herbert's DuneSamuel R. Delany's Babel-17Le Guin's The Left Hand of DarknessJo Walton's Among Others and our episode on itHolly Jean Buck's After Geoengineering"Engineering Swallows Up Politics"Neal Stephenson's Termination ShockKSR's AuroraMcKenzie Wark's Molecular RedUlrich Haarbürste's Roy Orbison Wrapped in ClingfilmStar Trek's “Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations”Spinoza's idea of conatusWalter Kaufman's introduction to Martin Buber's I and ThouKant's Categorical ImperativeAbbot ElementaryDelany's Trouble On TritonOctavia E. Butler's Parable of the TalentsMarx's CapitalJohn Brunner's Stand on ZanzibarKohei Sato's Slow Down: The Degrowth ManifestoKSR's The Ministry for the Future, New York 2140Le Guin's The Word for World is ForestGamers with GlassesFive Theses on Antifascist Game Criticism

(00:00-30:18) Doug, you wanted a real show? You got it! Does Jackson need to block Dennis Gates on Twitter to release the curse? Doug woke up to pee just in time to see the late night Blues W. Blues audio galore. The room believes. And loves. Just one point out with 19 to play. John Hamm hate. Jackson addresses the Mizzou loss. Hard hedging. (30:27-51:26) Jimmy "The Cat" Hayes joins the show. Laying hosanas upon Jackson. Young guys battling to get at-bats. Doug still beating the Luken Baker drum. How are they gonna get Baker at-bats? Contreras doing a little extra lifting and feeling stronger. Arenado. Lutina's pizza update. The Cat is the Prince of Misinformation. (51:36-1:00:39) Moon Doggie. Guests galore today. Alabama laid the blueprint for how to attack Mizzou. Platform to get right on Saturday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

(00:00-30:18) Doug, you wanted a real show? You got it! Does Jackson need to block Dennis Gates on Twitter to release the curse? Doug woke up to pee just in time to see the late night Blues W. Blues audio galore. The room believes. And loves. Just one point out with 19 to play. John Hamm hate. Jackson addresses the Mizzou loss. Hard hedging. (30:27-51:26) Jimmy "The Cat" Hayes joins the show. Laying hosanas upon Jackson. Young guys battling to get at-bats. Doug still beating the Luken Baker drum. How are they gonna get Baker at-bats? Contreras doing a little extra lifting and feeling stronger. Arenado. Lutina's pizza update. The Cat is the Prince of Misinformation. (51:36-1:00:39) Moon Doggie. Guests galore today. Alabama laid the blueprint for how to attack Mizzou. Platform to get right on Saturday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress Please Subscribe + Rate & Review KMJ’s Afternoon Drive with Philip Teresi & E. Curtis Johnson wherever you listen! --- KMJ’s Afternoon Drive with Philip Teresi & E. Curtis Johnson is available on the KMJNOW app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever else you listen. --- Philip Teresi & E. Curtis Johnson – KMJ’s Afternoon Drive Weekdays 2-6 PM Pacific on News/Talk 580 & 105.9 KMJ DriveKMJ.com | Podcast | Facebook | X | Instagram --- Everything KMJ: kmjnow.com | Streaming | Podcasts | Facebook | X | Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress Please Subscribe + Rate & Review KMJ’s Afternoon Drive with Philip Teresi & E. Curtis Johnson wherever you listen! --- KMJ’s Afternoon Drive with Philip Teresi & E. Curtis Johnson is available on the KMJNOW app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever else you listen. --- Philip Teresi & E. Curtis Johnson – KMJ’s Afternoon Drive Weekdays 2-6 PM Pacific on News/Talk 580 & 105.9 KMJ DriveKMJ.com | Podcast | Facebook | X | Instagram --- Everything KMJ: kmjnow.com | Streaming | Podcasts | Facebook | X | Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The conclusion to my review of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. In the next episode we will being a four part dive into I WILL FEAR NO EVIL. 

Part two of my review of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS by Robert A. Heinlein. In this episode, I cover the revolt on the Moon and some of the political theory at the heart of the novel, both the spoken and unspoken parts. 

Part 1 of 3 of my review of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, one of Heinlein's most famous and well-regarded books. Often billed a libertarian novel, is it better to look at it as anti-colonial? Can it be both? 

Catherine meets up with returning guest Paul to bid a final farewell to Robert Heinlein through reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. They discuss Libertarianism, Heinlein's sexism, and his love of self-insert characters.

Lara and Carey discuss the joy of slot machines and quasi-sobriety in Las Vegas, Kim Kardashian burnout and her Actors on Actors with Chloë Sevigny, and the voyeuristic splendor of Buying Beverly Hills. Meanwhile, Janet's babymoon from Hell is soon coming to a close, and the men take one last fishing trip onto the lake while the girls throw Janet her actual baby shower. Danny gets blackout drunk and reveals his sunny demeanor may be hiding something much darker; an awkward "fantasy night" theme dinner with the entire group ensues. Back in Los Ang at the Men's Rights Luncheon, Jax swears with every fiber that Brittany will never leave him, shortly after Brittany confesses to Janet that divorce is on the table.Buy tickets to the SUP SUMMER 2024 TOUR!Subscribe to Once Upon a Time in Nashville to hear a new episode out now!Listen to this episode ad-free AND get access to weekly bonus episodes + video episodes by joining the SUP PATREON.Be cheap as hell and get full-length videos of the pod for free by subscribing to the SUP YOUTUBE.Relive the best moments of this iconic podcast by following the SUP TIKOK. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Setti once again joins TENE pod to grok Robert A. Heinlein's novels, Starship Troopers, Stranger in a Strange Land, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and their disturbing prescriptions for an unwelcome future. Check out Settembrini's podcast Zock Bock Radio! pesa-nexus (dot) de/category/zock-bock-radio Music: "World of Automatans", "Light Years", and "Midnight Crawlers" by Eric Matyas : www.soundimage.org "in Honor", "Airlock", and "Space Conspiracy" by fesliyanstudios.com Subscribe to patreon.org/tenepod and twitter.com/tenepod.

Infinite Loops Key Takeaways Check out the episode pageRead the full notes @ podcastnotes.orgDevon Eriksen always wanted to be a writer. As a child, he was persuaded to abandon his aspirations in favor of a career in software engineering. Two decades later, he retired to finally fulfil his ambition to write imaginative hard-science fiction in the vein of authors like Asimov, Heinlein and Niven. He self-published his first novel, Theft of Fire, last year to an excellent reception. Devon joins the show to discuss why his book incorporates alien technology, the role of patronage in the digital era, his unusual approach to obtaining feedback, and MUCH more! Important Links: Theft of Fire; by Devon Eriksen Devon's Website Devon's Twitter Introducing: The Life of David Rhoiney Show Notes: Centralization & Institutional Corruption The Evolving Nature of Resource Constraints Why Theft of Fire Features Alien Technology The Musk Dynasty Architects vs Gardeners Editing, Feedback & Beta-Readers Audience Capture & Disagreeableness “Money is a measure of fu*ks given” Patronage & Intellectual Property in the Digital Era Permissionless Writing How to Become a High-Agency Character Devon as Emperor of the World MORE! Books and Articles Mentioned: Theft of Fire; by Devon Eriksen The Ultimate Resource; by Julian Simon The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress; by Robert A. Heinlein The Population Bomb; by Paul R. Ehrlich Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance; by Robert M. Pirsig The Status Game: On Human Life and How to Play It; by Will Storr

Devon Eriksen always wanted to be a writer. As a child, he was persuaded to abandon his aspirations in favor of a career in software engineering. Two decades later, he retired to finally fulfil his ambition to write imaginative hard-science fiction in the vein of authors like Asimov, Heinlein and Niven. He self-published his first novel, Theft of Fire, last year to an excellent reception. Devon joins the show to discuss why his book incorporates alien technology, the role of patronage in the digital era, his unusual approach to obtaining feedback, and MUCH more! Important Links: Theft of Fire; by Devon Eriksen Devon's Website Devon's Twitter Introducing: The Life of David Rhoiney Show Notes: Centralization & Institutional Corruption The Evolving Nature of Resource Constraints Why Theft of Fire Features Alien Technology The Musk Dynasty Architects vs Gardeners Editing, Feedback & Beta-Readers Audience Capture & Disagreeableness “Money is a measure of fu*ks given” Patronage & Intellectual Property in the Digital Era Permissionless Writing How to Become a High-Agency Character Devon as Emperor of the World MORE! Books and Articles Mentioned: Theft of Fire; by Devon Eriksen The Ultimate Resource; by Julian Simon The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress; by Robert A. Heinlein The Population Bomb; by Paul R. Ehrlich Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance; by Robert M. Pirsig The Status Game: On Human Life and How to Play It; by Will Storr

In this conversation, Tyler sits down with Brien Lundin, the CEO of Jefferson Financial Inc. and the host of the prestigious New Orleans Investment Conference. Brien shares insights on the current geopolitical landscape, macroeconomic forces, and the opportunities and risks they present for investors. Discover the importance of real assets, including gold and real estate, in your investment strategy. This episode is packed with valuable knowledge that will leave you inspired and ready to take your investment to the next level.    ✅KEY POINTS✅       ✅ The current state of the geopolitical landscape and macroeconomic circumstances.  ✅ The risks and opportunities present in the market.  ✅ Case for gold and other real assets as a means of diversification and protection against potential risks.  ✅ Investing is more than just making money, it's making a lasting impact!    NEW ORLEANS CONFERENCE LINKS  November 1 – 4, 2023  Register https://neworleansconference.com/  Special Offer https://goldnewsletter.com/elevate/    LINKS TO BOOKMARK  Keep up with the Elevate Podcast: https://elevatepod.com/  Interested in investing with Tyler? Visit https://www.cfcapllc.com/  Ready to boost your web presence? Visit www.sharpwilkinson.com/    FIND BRIEN  Twitter https://twitter.com/Brien_Lundin  Facebook https://www.facebook.com/BrienLundin  LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/brien-lundin-b37a4819/    NAMES AND BOOKS  James U. Blanchard https://fee.org/articles/james-u-blanchard-iii  Matt Taibbi https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-taibbi  Danielle DiMartino Booth https://www.linkedin.com/in/dimartinobooth/  George Gammon https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgegammon  Rick Rule https://www.linkedin.com/in/rick-rule  Dominic Frisby https://twitter.com/DominicFrisby/  Konstantin Kisin https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin  James U. Blanchard “Confession of a Gold Bug” https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Gold-Bug-James-Blanchard/  Robert A. Heinlein “The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress” https://www.amazon.com/Moon-Is-Harsh-Mistress  WTF Happened In 1971? https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/   

Everything about the world must be rethought -- and Vitalik Buterin is on it. He joins Amit Varma and guest co-host Ajay Shah in episode 342 of The Seen and the Unseen to discuss currencies, freedom, political philosophy, community, aging and why we need not be too scared of men with guns. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) Also check out: 1. Vitalik Buterin on Twitter and his own website. 2. Ending Aging --  Aubrey de Grey. 3. The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant -- Nick Bostrom. 4. Issue # 1 of Bitcoin Magazine. 5. The World of Warcraft origin story. 6. Human Action -- Ludwig von Mises. 7. Atlas Shrugged -- Ayn Rand. 8. Thomas Sowell on Amazon, Wikipedia and his own website. 9. Frédéric Bastiat's writings at Bastiat.org and Amazon. 10. The Bastiat-Proudhon Debate. 11. True Names -- Vernon Vinge. 12. The Overton Window. 13. In Defense of Alternative Cryptocurrencies (2013) -- Vitalik Buterin. 14. Convex and Concave Dispositions -- Vitalik Buterin. 15. Arrow's impossibility theorem. 16. Credible Auctions: A Trilemma -- Mohammad Akbarpour and Shengwu Li. 17, Crypto currencies and conventional currencies will both evolve -- Ajay Shah. 18. How Bitcoin Can Actually Help Iranians and Argentinians (2013) -- Vitalik Buterin. 19. Law, Legislation and Liberty -- Friedrich Hayek. 20. The Wandering Earth -- Frant Gwo, based on the book by Cixin Liu. 21. 3 Body Problem -- David Benioff, DB Weiss and Alexander Woo, based on the book by Cixin Liu. 22. The Studio Ghibli Collection. 23. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -- Robert Heinlein. 24. Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant -- Video by CGP Grey. Amit Varma and Ajay Shah have launched a new video podcast. Check out Everything is Everything on YouTube. Check out Amit's online course, The Art of Clear Writing. And subscribe to The India Uncut Newsletter. It's free! Episode art: ‘Vitalik' by Simahina.

This month we read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein, and boy howdy is it ever a Mojo Dojo Casa House up there on Luna. We'll stay here on Earth, thanks. DM: Amy CW/TW: every expression of misogyny! Transcript Library  Music by Pets of Belonging LINKS: 7 Fictional Characters that Changed the World Cronkite Interview with Heinlein and Clarke Jo Walton's Review

After listening to the entire recording, please register StartOver.xyz Matrix Code: NCRADIO2.98 in your free account at https://login.startover.xyz Listen to the previous recordings here: http://buildinglovethatlasts.mystrikingly.com Chat: 11:08:31  From MImi : Can you write the name please :) 11:08:49  From Anne-Chloé Destremau : Alan Watts 11:08:56  From MImi : Thank you 11:23:14  From MImi : The name of the book please 11:23:16  From Arena Del mar : Can you spell his last name please 11:23:20  From Arena Del mar : Robert... 11:23:34  From Anne-Chloé Destremau : Robert Heinlein 11:24:10  From Anne-Chloé Destremau : Time enough for Love, Stranger in a Strange Land, The Moon is A Harsh Mistress, Farhnam's Freehold 11:30:22  From Dorothea : Robert Heinlein 12:21:38  From Anne-Chloé Destremau : http://alaomab.mystrikingly.com 12:23:50  From Anne-Chloé Destremau : http://archiarchymakerfair.mystrikingly.com

So what is ME, you may ask? Read on. Our guest this episode is James Davis who lives North of ME in Washington State. He began life in the Midwest and lived there until he and his mother moved to Colorado to get Mom out of an abusive relationship.   James tells us how he went to college where he majored in history, a subject he hated in high school. It's interesting how often our perspectives change and in James' case, History became quite interesting for him. He then went into teaching, but as he puts it to us, he began experiencing “brain fog” and eventually had to cease teaching as a career.   It took years for him to learn what was happening to him. By the time he learned that he had a disease called ME, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis he had decided to commit suicide. He couldn't kill himself, however, without first talking about his decision with his wife. She convinced him not to leave the Earth quite yet and, eventually, he discovered what was going on with him. Our episode with James concludes with some great life observations from him such as not letting severe depression overwhelm you.   James had many times in his life where he could have just given up and bowed out. He did not. Unstoppable? Yes. James is easy to listen to and his stories are engaging. I hope you enjoy what he has to say including how he now serves on the board of ME International, an accessiBe customer.     About the Guest:   I was born in the Midwest and spent a majority of my youth moving around Illinois and Missouri. I spent some time in California and Colorado as well. I grew up in an ultra-conservative environment, but that never set well with me because I was always curious and wanting to know more. Asking the why of something was discouraged. I spent most of my youth exploring woods and creeks around places we lived. Those are my fondest memories of my youth. My earliest memory is with my dad. It was at night and we were parked next to a beach. My dad carried me down these large rocks with a flashlight. He was whispering to me, but I don't really remember what he was saying, only that he was excited. When we reached the sandy bottom, he shined his light under the rocks where I was amazed to see these little crabs scurrying about.  He reached under there and pulled one out. It was clearly agitated looking for something to latch onto with its claw. I loved seeing this tiny creature for the first time. My dad snatched me up into his other arm and climbed back up the rocks to our car. He sat me down and whispered, “Watch this” and proceeded to make my mother and sister scream in horror as he dangled the crab toward them. We laughed heartily at their expense. Not sure why that memory stuck with me, but it has definitely influenced my sense of humor.   My father was murdered when I was 16. My mother went from one abusive husband to another. One of them was a mean alcoholic and tried to stab me one day over some drunken delusion. After a brief altercation where I defended myself with a greasy cast iron skillet, I decided I had more than enough. I packed a duffle bag and hitched a ride to the nearest town where I spent some time couch surfing and being homeless. I was 16 years old when I left home. I went through a rather destructive phase and abused drugs and alcohol for some time and barely showed up for school. This went on for about a year before my mother found me and asked me to move to Colorado with her. She was trying to get away from her abusive husband, but she wouldn't leave without me, so I moved to Colorado with her and my siblings. I am not entirely certain what it was about the change of environments, but being in the mountains was a life affirming moment that had a profound impression on me. I stopped my delinquency and enrolled in an at-risk school where I finished my high school diploma. Many years later I would come back to teach there. I spent a lot of time biking, backpacking and fishing. I loved to fly fish but I was never especially good at it. I used to scout trails for overnight hikes for the Boy Scouts up in the mountains. I hiked the Grand Canyon, which was both amazing and grueling. I was not well prepared for the extremes. At the top of the South Rim it snowed 4 inches my first night there. I had foolishly decided to not bring a tent and sleep under the stars to save weight in my pack. Needless to say, I didn't get much sleep. After a hike to the bottom of the canyon, I was pleasantly surprised to find a balmy 70 degrees. It had been several days since I had a shower, so the first thing I wanted to do is wash myself. I made a foolish error of leaving my pack at my campsite while washing up along the river only to return and find a wild turkey had consumed an entire bag of granola leaving me short on food for my trip out. It was not a fun hike out. The last mile was excruciating and I was practically crawling. I heard it was called the wall by marathon runners where you have exhausted all of your energy reserves. This same feeling of exhaustion would revisit me years later, but not from over exertion or a turkey stealing my food. After I graduated from high school, I did end up going to college. I was the first in my family to attend college and I loved academics. If I hadn't become ill, I imagine I would probably still be taking classes to this day. My first school was South Western Illinois. I was an honor student, president of the Poetry club and editor of the school magazine. I started my first non-profit with some college friends called The River Foundation. Our thinking was we wanted a venue for novice writers to hone their skills to hopefully someday become professional writers. It was a lot of fun and work, but it fell apart when my college partners decided to go overseas for school or run off and get married. I completed an Associate of arts degree from here and then later moved to Colorado and attended Mesa University for my History degree with a teaching certificate. I was in the honors program here as well and on the editing staff of the literary magazine. This is where I developed a love of Bronze Age Cultures and did my honor's thesis on gender representation in Minoan art and iconography. After college, I was all set to teach high school until I became seriously ill. There were days I was so exhausted I could not lift myself out of bed. I had no idea what was wrong with me and neither did my doctors. At first, they thought I had AIDS, which was really scary. They tested me 3 times over the course of a year, but it was always negative. All my tests where fairly normal with some results just outside normal ranges. Nobody had any idea so I went through a period where new drugs where being thrown at me, some only exacerbating my illness. I remember taking Lyrica for the chronic pain. It helped at first, but over time made me have violent episodes. I am one of those types of people who love their dogs like their own children, so when I felt an urge to strike my dog, I knew something serious was wrong. Needless to say, I was weened quickly off that medicine. I can't remember all the drugs I was given in those years but they were numerous. I think in total, 8 anti-depressants were tried on me all of them made me feel worse. One, made me so agoraphobic, I couldn't leave my house. This dart board medical approach went on for several years being shuffled between specialists without ever having any answers. I was unable to work due to the horrible brain fog and memory problems, chronic pain, sleepless nights and a whole host of persistent symptoms. You can't really teach history if you can't remember the names of the historical figures. Hell, I often forgot the names of close family members. I remember thinking I had to have some horrible disease that was going to kill me any day. Between the unknowing, the chronic pain, the loss of my cognitive function, which was something I deemed very important to me, I just became overwhelmed and decided to end my life. I made a plan that I could carry out unassisted, but before I would execute my plan, I knew I had to make my wife understand my decision. She was such a sweet person and definitely would have blamed herself. I knew I couldn't do that to her. I thought because she saw my daily struggle, she would be sympathetic. Boy was I wrong. After a long conversation and some tearful chastisement, we came to the agreement that I would not give up until all avenues were exhausted to find some answers to this illness. It took several more years before I was finally diagnosed and it happened by pure accident. Because I was unable to work, I decided I needed something constructive to do with my time and was looking into ways of making money. I felt an enormous amount of guilt for not being able to contribute financially. While I was unable to do anything remotely physical, I had a pretty solid background with computers. I had worked several years as a webmaster in the mid 90s. So I started scouring the internet for ideas and ended up reading about a writer in the UK that was making a living writing. In his blog, he was discussing his illness and how it prevented him from working which led him to become a writer. As I read his description of his illness, I was floored that his symptoms were nearly identical to my own. I brought this to the attention of my physician who sent me to some specialists in Denver for a battery of tests and I was finally given a name to what had been plaquing me for years; Myalgic Encephalomyelitis. It was such a weird combination of emotions as I was elated to have a name to put to this horrible thing, but dismayed that little was known and there was no known cure or treatment. At the very least, I thought it would alleviate some of the shame people were making me feel because, if medicine recognized it, so should they. Things improved somewhat after getting a diagnosis. At least some of my symptoms were being treated and I learned how to cope better. I began writing in earnest and finished 2 fantasy books of a trilogy. Guardians of the Grove, and Daughter of the Forest. It was nice to feel accomplishment again despite the daily struggle to get by. I had trouble performing tasks for my basic necessities, but my wife was very supportive and did a lot to help me on a daily basis. I don't think I could have survived without her help. It certainly wasn't the life I envisioned for myself, but there was enough quality in it to keep me moving forward. Several years after my ME diagnosis, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. I was only 47 at the time. It really felt like I was cursed at this point. Between ME and the cancer, I was an emotional wreck. These two illnesses robbed me of my ability to become the person I was raised to be. I was raised in that traditional Midwest home where the “man” was to be the breadwinner and work hard for his family, the protector, and all that John Wayne sort of mentality. I didn't talk about my pain, my illness, the struggles I had, all of it was endured silently. My wife of course knew, she was there and could see it first hand, but that wasn't true for everyone else. When I was able to be around family and friends, I was always at my best, because that is the only time I was capable of leaving our home. When I was asked how I was feeling, it was always met with a smile and some pleasantry. This is how I was raised. You simply didn't burden others with your personal tribulations and as a man I wasn't allowed to show weakness. I remember when I was seven years old, I cut open my hand and had to get seven stitches. I was rewarded with money afterwards because I “took it like a man” and didn't cry.   Now, I have cancer and faced with some tough decisions. Unbeknownst to me, my wife's family began to openly question our relationship as I was a drain on their daughter. Now, these people are not mean spirited or malicious, they had genuine concern for the welfare of their daughter, sibling, niece etc. I can't fault them for their concern. It's not like I hadn't raised the same questions with myself. I often thought my wife deserved more than I could offer. My wife however, wasn't responsive to this, but she also has severe co-dependency with her family. She wants to make sure they are happy with her and approve of her. The enormous amount of pressure they put on her, eventually wore her down and they talked her into leaving me and file for divorce. This was happening while I was in the hospital undergoing surgery to save my life. To them, I simply wasn't living up to my duty as a man in our society.   I often wondered if I hadn't clung to those same beliefs, and spoke up about the numerous problems I was going through if it would have made a difference in their minds. I of course have no way of answering that question, but I have become a little more open about discussing my illness. I am not very good at it, but I do endeavor to be honest about my ailment. The expectation that as a man of my generation, I am to suffer in silence and manage to be a provider and protector no matter the personal cost is an unrealistic view. When I was going to college, I tended bar at a local pub. It was mostly retired factory workers who spent their whole lives being providers. Every last one of them were miserable wrecks drinking the days among strangers waiting to die. It was a sad realization and when I became ill, I realized I was trying to be one of them. It's a hard thing to come to terms with when you realize much of what you've been taught is a fallacy. Once I was able to find Facebook forums discussing ME, I almost never saw men among the posters. We were silent visitors lurking among the group trying to find some glimmer of hope for treatment options. It is a difficult struggle for many men to overcome our socialization and reach out for help. It is somewhat opposite for women, who are often deemed to have mental issues. That they are somehow fragile, emotional, and susceptible to delusions. These biases have kept thousands of suffering patients from getting proper care. But this is often the case for many diseases. It wasn't that different for patients in the early days of Multiple Sclerosis or even AIDS. Social biases caused many to suffer unfairly. This is why I joined ME International so I could help educate people with the science and numerous studies concerning ME in hope that we could get beyond the bias and move our understanding of ME forward. My philosophy in life is rather simple. I don't fight the current to be in a place I think I am supposed to be, but rather look for happiness where life takes me. So, once everything settled down from my cancer, I ended up packing up and moving to live in the Pacific Northwest. It has awoken that same sensation I felt when I first moved to Colorado. It's a place where I can feel alive even with this disease. Getting outdoors more often and implementing new diet regimens has increased my ability to function. I am nowhere near the days of backpacking 20 miles over mountainous terrain, but I can manage some short trips if I plan them well and allow recovery time. I often overdo things and end up on my back for days or weeks, but I am living life. When I built my first home, I put a stained-glass kit in the window of my front door that read, “May you live all the days of your life”. That is what I do. I have taken up photography to share all this beauty surrounding me. Every year I make a Calendar of my traveling pictures and give them to loved ones for Christmas. I am able to work a part time job because they allow me to work when I am capable. It feels nice to earn something even if a small amount. I volunteer on the board of ME International to give back to other ME patients and I stay far away from any family stress. I wake up and have my antioxidant shake and listen to some meditation and be thankful for the life I live. While it isn't the life I thought I was going to be living, I have found a place where some happiness can exist, and that is enough.         About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Hi, there, and thanks for joining us once again on unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike Hingson. And I wish you a pleasant day, wherever you happen to be. Today, we get to talk with James Davis. And he has got a great story to tell a challenging story at times. But I think a very inspirational story. He has been through a lot. He's helped a lot of people. And I met him through accessiBe. In fact, he has been working with our nonprofit partner, Sheldon Lewis, who we got to interview on the podcast, gosh, a long time ago now. And so Sheldon suggested that we should chat we have and James agreed to come on the podcast. So James, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   James Davis  02:09 Thank you glad to be here.   Michael Hingson  02:11 Well, we're really pleased and honored that you were able to join us. So tell us a little bit about you growing up, I love to start that way and just kind of let people talk about their, their world growing up. And I know you had a pretty big challenge. So I'll leave it to you.   James Davis  02:26 Well, I was born in East St. Louis, and I grew up in our area around St. Louis most of my life and some of the Midwest boy and moved around a lot didn't stay in any particular place for any length of time. And yeah, it's a mom went through several marriages. And so you know, I had some challenges with that. And yeah,   Michael Hingson  02:56 what what year were you born?   James Davis  02:58 66.   Michael Hingson  03:00 Okay, well, I beat you by a few years. I was born in Chicago in 1950. So, Midwest also, I moved to California when I was five. But my wife constantly told me no matter what, you weren't here for your first five years, so you're not a native.   James Davis  03:18 I did live in California for a couple years when I was apparently from about 18 months old to about two and a half, three years old. Something like that. My mom said in Santa Barbara. Oh,   Michael Hingson  03:30 well, that's a great place to live. Yeah. And   James Davis  03:33 it's actually my earliest memory because I remember my dad pulling alongside this rocky area next to a beach. And he wanted to show me so she grabbed a flashlight, it was getting dark. And we went down to the beach and he looked underneath these rocks and pulled out a little crab. And which I thought was just great, you know? And suddenly he said watch this. And he carried me back up to the car and proceeded to scare my mother and my older sister half to death with this crab and that's my earliest memory in life. And it's probably also where I get my honor a sense of humor as well.   Michael Hingson  04:16 Well, no, no one recency humor isn't isn't is the big problem. But that was kind of cruel to do but what happened to the crab?   James Davis  04:26 He put it back and then we'll Okay. Remember, it was just a little rock crab or something? Yeah.   Michael Hingson  04:32 Yeah. Well, you So you moved around a fair amount, obviously and so on. And eventually you? You went high school and went to college and all that.   James Davis  04:42 Yes. So I Well, my dad died when I was 16. He was killed in a bar. And then so for about a year or so there I was in just self destruct mode and dropped Go to school. And then my mom got with a guy that was an alcoholic. So I ended up leaving home. And I think I was about 16. When that happened, almost 17. So kind of lived on the streets for a while. And then my mom came to me and said, you know, let's move to Colorado because he was wanting to get away from this guy. And so I agreed, and yeah, and that's that moved sort of changed my life at that point. And I got back into school and finished high school and went on to college.   Michael Hingson  05:36 What did you major in?   James Davis  05:40 I ended up majoring in history, which is a little ironic because I hated history in high school. But what I realized was what I hated about history in high school was It was always my football coaches that were teaching the history and they didn't care much about history, there was no passion. They were all about the football. And so yeah, so when I got to college, you know, the professor's you know, they were passionate about it. And I realized what a fascinating topic it was in. Yeah, so I just fell in love with history.   Michael Hingson  06:17 You just made me think of the fact that a couple of days ago, we interviewed musician Kenny Aronoff and Kenny was and is a drummer, and grew up not really excited about rock, playing in classical orchestras and so on, and then decided he didn't really like classical nearly as much as rock and more modern music. And, and so he, he switched and has been extremely successful. But I hear what you're saying, you know, sometimes our attitudes changed in one way or another. So you like history today?   James Davis  06:53 Well, yeah, love history. Favorite is Bronze Age. So ancient history.   Michael Hingson  06:59 Now, why do you like the Bronze Age?   James Davis  07:03 You know, it's, it's one civilization was really sort of coming into its own, you know. And, and I find that very fascinating. It was a big melting pot, especially in the Mediterranean region. And so what really got me into it was how religion, how they adopted each other's deities and to each other's regions, and it just sort of CO opted them. And it's just a very fascinating development to me, you know, how that came about?   Michael Hingson  07:38 Then Christianity came along and sort of messed up the whole deity thing a little bit.   James Davis  07:45 Yeah, a monkey wrench in there, for sure. Well, you   Michael Hingson  07:47 know, on the other hand, we do progress. And there's value in doing that, and growing and recognizing, hopefully, what God's about. But that's, that's, of course, another whole story. So what did you do after college?   James Davis  08:02 So I did start teaching history at some high schools out there. In Colorado, I was living in Colorado at the time. And because of what happened in my youth, I was really wanting to go to these at risk youth centers, you know, like Job Corps, and there was a place called our five where I also graduated from, and I started working there with them as well. And so yeah, that's what I just started teaching. I just loved it.   Michael Hingson  08:40 Yeah. It's, it's extremely rewarding. And I've always been of the opinion that teachers never get paid or rewarded nearly enough for the work that they do. So I have a secondary teaching credential, but jobs took me in other directions. So I haven't taught professionally as it were. But I think that, you know, in a lot of ways I've always been teaching, so I appreciate what you're saying. So how long did you teach? Or do you still   James Davis  09:11 know I forced retirement so to speak, in 2009, I was having I had been having for several years, some problems, some health problems, and I wasn't sure what was going on. And it really sort of came to head around 2009 And I just the brain fog that I was experienced was so severe, that I really could have I was struggling to keep dates and times names in my head. And so it wasn't good for me to be a teacher in my mind because I wasn't able to present the material properly to the students. At least that's what I was thinking in my head and then it's probably true so so I just quit and and then I You know, I struggled for a couple years and depression and all of that trying to figure out I thought I was dying. I mean, I, I was so sick that, you know, I couldn't even get out of bed some days. And I've never knew any sort of illness that would do this. And doctors have no idea I go to them every few months trying to figure this out. And there was nothing. So yeah, so I just put me into a really deep depression.   Michael Hingson  10:27 What happened? Well,   James Davis  10:31 you know, I was the biggest part of my depression was twofold, one, chronic pain. And the chronic illness itself was very hard to deal with on a daily basis. And then the other thing was, is not been able to contribute to our household, a wife, and, you know, the kids that kids are old enough to move out at that point, but I was, just wasn't in a good place. And I just couldn't see a path forward. And plus, you know, think that I want to die anytime anyway, because I was so sick, that I decided to take on myself to do it myself. So I made a plan. And I was going to, just in the suffering of all this and let my wife move on. And, but I knew I couldn't do it without talking that over with her first because she is such a sensitive person that she would have thought that it was her fault that I did this. And I just couldn't do that to her. So I sat her down, I thought she would be sympathetic, cuz she knew how sick I was. She wasn't very sympathetic. She was actually quite mad at me. And so anyway, we talked and she made me promise not to do anything until we exhausted all of the medical avenues that we could. And so that started me on another journey of trying to figure out what was wrong with me. And   Michael Hingson  12:01 that sounds like it took a while to really figure out.   James Davis  12:06 Yeah, I wasn't diagnosed until 2013. And it didn't happen by accident. I was trying to figure out what I could do to bring some income into our house. Because I knew I couldn't do anything physical. But you know, I had some pretty good computer skills. And you know, I had my education. So I was like, just scouring the internet trying to find something I could do, you know, as I'm able to do it. And I ran across this blog from a young man in Great Britain, or the UK. And as I was reading it, he was talking about how he had become a writer because of his illness. And I thought this is promising. And then he started going through all the problems that he was suffering. And I was just going down and reading this, every single one of the things that he was talking about that he had, I had except for like, one out of like, 15 symptoms. And I was like, wow, that can't be a coincidence. So it took that information, you know, and he said he had me and I took all this to my doctor. And I said, What do you think, is like, I don't know, I have never heard of it. So he sent me to Denver University Hospital, and I went over there. And they did a battery of tests and sent me back and said, I had my LG conceptual immediate mellitus. And that that was the turning point for me, I guess.   Michael Hingson  13:38 So what is me?   James Davis  13:39 Good question. You know, they don't know for sure. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that they know about it, but they don't know the actual costs for certain. In my case, it's believed that it was from the Epstein Barr Virus that triggered a post viral thing which happens to a lot of people, some people's, it's one of the herpes simplex viruses, and but it seems to be a post viral illness. not that different from long COVID symptoms are very similar. You know, they've also, with all this research they've been doing, they've just also discovered that Epstein Barr Virus is also associated with multiple sclerosis. And there might be a connection with that disease as well, which has a similar set of symptoms. So to me, and you know, this is just my personal view. It seems to be some sort of post viral illness. And if it's not treated early, caught early and treated early. I don't haven't heard of anybody actually recovering from it. If they hadn't caught it early, but you know, it causes severe fatigue with it. hauled penny or Pam, sometimes it's a post exhaustion, malaise or post exhaust. So I'm horrible with these acronyms. Yeah. It's an exhaustion from anything. It doesn't have to be physical, it could be stress causes exhaustion. And that's one of the key things, chronic pain, muscle pain, joint pain causes a problems with the endocrine system. So our immune system slightly off, T cells don't function quite well. The mitochondria does it produce the right energy, that's one of the big things that they're trying to figure out. So there's a lot of little things and it's just basically a complete system. Everything in your system is off, not by a whole lot, the buy enough to make everything feel horrible.   Michael Hingson  15:56 So once they diagnosed that in you, what were they able to do? Or what were you able to do about it?   James Davis  16:04 So there is no treatment, per se, there's, there's so there's no cure, there's, there's not a whole lot they can do except treat symptoms. So, you know, I was put on some pain pills for the chronic pain, and, you know, and then I started, I developed diabetes in that process, because, you know, my endocrine system was stressed. And so, you know, treated me for that. So they just treat you for the symptoms that you have. And then, but then I started doing my own research. And because you know, my doctor, he admitted he knew nothing about the disease, but he was willing to try anything. So I do I appreciated that. And so I got on the internet started searching and, and I bumped into some forums on Facebook that had information. So what I started to do was some anti antioxidants. So I do a morning antioxidant shake, you know, with my green tea, and some Reishi Mushrooms and stuff and, and I put all that together. And that's how I start my day is trying to get the anti inflammatories into my body. So that's been a big help and make sure the other biggest thing that is getting rest, because sleep deprivation can be a really serious problem for people with me. So those two things really changed the quality of my life.   Michael Hingson  17:33 So I assume you still though do experience chronic pain and so on? Or are you able to deal with most of it?   James Davis  17:43 Yeah, the chronic pain thing has been troublesome because of the opioids Of course. So I've been taking them in for shoot 12 years or more, and actually more 14 years. So at one point, when I went to my doctor, I said, you know, he kept bumping up my dosage, and I was at 10 milligrams. And so you know, it's, it's, I don't want to keep going down that path because that the efficacy is going to fade. And I don't want to keep taking more of this medicine. So he sent me to a neurologist. And the neurologist started me on three different pain pills that I would rotate every three weeks. So it was the Vikatan equivalent oxy, and I forget what the third one was. And so I was doing that I did that for a very brief time, I realized that I was getting dependent on it in a way that was very unhealthy. And so I took myself off of it. And from that point on I realized I had to manage it myself. So what I've learned over the years so I don't end up getting an addiction problem is I just take the minimal amount that I need just to get through the really rough patches. So I only take all my pain gets above a five and in no other time I never take it more than two or three days at a time. So so I've had to manage that aspect of it quite a bit.   Michael Hingson  19:19 Have you have you found any kind of natural remedies or not necessarily Western medicine kinds of things that help or have you looked into any of that?   James Davis  19:30 I have you know, I took I've tried marijuana both ingestion and smoking and it just wasn't effective for me and a lot of people it does help but for me it didn't you know it it was made me sleepy. So it just made me non functional. And you know, they tried me on some stuff like Lyrica and Gabapentin which Aren't opioid based but the Lyrica ended up making me horribly violent. It's just the weirdest thing because I'm a very passive kind of person. And, and I remember the day I sort of just had this epiphany of what was going on, as I was sitting there watching some television, I had this large dog who was, you know, tall, about 90 pounds and, and whenever he wanted to go to the bathroom, he would block up and lay his head on my lap. And when he did that, I just had this urge to strike at him. And I love my pet, I would never hit my pet. And that freaked me out. And I realized that it was the medicine, so I had to get off of that, and it was helping some. And so that was a benefit. But the side effects were just too much. Trying to take some of the other stuff I've tried. Magnesium helps a lot with with my cramping, muscle cramps, and some of the muscle pain. So I do some magnesium. But I can't take any of the B vitamins, I have this weird thing that when I take certain vitamins, it causes a really bad brain fog to occur. And I'm not sure why that's not that common. It's just something weird with me, I guess. So I've been very limited by try stuff all the time, I've got a whole cabinet over there of supplements and stuff that I try.   Michael Hingson  21:29 Well, but through all of it, you, you obviously didn't go off and execute the plan that you are going to execute. And I bet your wife is pretty happy about that.   James Davis  21:40 Yes, yes, you know, we ended up moving out to the Pacific Northwest, we live in Washington now. And that has been a bit of a game changer for me, it's I feel revitalized. It's new area. It's beautiful here that the country is just gorgeous. And so whenever I'm able, we take these little trips, you know, an hour here a couple hours here and just check out new parks and whatever, you know, beaches and all these beautiful locations. And that led me getting back into photography, I was in photography, when I was really young, I lived with a photographer for a while. And so I got back into photography and, and having that creative outlet has been wonderful, especially for countering depression. Because along with the depression from this illness, you know, I was, for my entire life, I've had seasonal affective disorder. So in the wintertime, it gets really brutal for me. And that photography, and those creative outlets I've found, and some, you know, some lights, some of those daylight stuff, I use all of those techniques. And that keeps me in a better place.   Michael Hingson  22:58 So are you are you still married? Is all that working out? Or?   James Davis  23:03 Yeah, I still still with my wife, and it's great. Yeah, she's a manager at apartment complex. And they've allowed me to work part time, you know, 1015 hours a week, just doing some maintenance stuff, like I take care of their security cameras for more computer tech stuff. And so yes, I'm able to contribute a little something to, to our little home here.   Michael Hingson  23:31 Well, you know, the, the thing that comes to mind is clearly in some senses, you're different, right? You have what people would classify, and I assume that you would, would also agree it's classified as a disability. And as I tell people disability does not mean lack of ability. It's a characteristic. And I've made the case on this podcast many times that not one single person on this planet is without a disability. The problem for most people is their light dependent and you don't do well when it gets dark. Some of us don't have that problem. But you know, you you are different. How does that affect both how you look at yourself or how people treat you what kind of biases and stuff do you encounter because you do have chronic pain and, and the things that you have?   James Davis  24:27 You know, I think the most difficult part of having m e is people only see you when you're when you have the energy and ability to get out and about. So they're only seeing you at your very best. They don't see you. When you come home and you're in bed for three days afterwards, right there. They don't experience that part of your life. So there's this tendency of people believing that there's nothing wrong with you. And I know when me first started Being diagnosed. More broadly, it was mostly women, I think somewhere around 70% or more people diagnosed with the illness is women. And so there was a tendency to treat woman women as that it was all in her head, you know, we have this, especially, you know, 40 years ago is, is very prevalent in the medical community, if they couldn't diagnose something that it had to be mental mental issue. That's what that's been a huge problem there. And then for me, I know, the men that have me, I just recently, like, a year or two ago, joined a men's forum on Facebook. And it really hit home how isolated men become, because, you know, especially men of my age, you know, we're taught that you're supposed to be the provider for your family, you know, and you have to be the protector and all of these things, you have that social construct, and you can't live up to that having me it's just impossible. And that, I think that shame that I felt over that was the worst emotional aspect of this disease is this shame that I felt. And then you know, of course, everybody's not being very sympathetic towards you, because they're only seeing at your best. So, you know, it's just just a bad place to be. So I've learned to not be so silent about it being more open about my illness. Because of that people understand that. Yeah, I am sick, and there's nothing I can do about it.   Michael Hingson  26:45 And you learned not to be so hard on yourself. Yes, yes. It's really part of the issue.   James Davis  26:53 It is definitely in ours. I was brought up watching John Wayne movies, and that's the kind of man I was supposed to be, you know, you get a job at the steel mill, you know, and you raise a family go to church on Sundays, and that's your life. And I was just too curious. And yeah, it just wasn't the thing for me. So.   Michael Hingson  27:19 So you, you deal with it?   James Davis  27:21 Yeah, yeah, you just you find a path forward and then move along.   Michael Hingson  27:25 And it is about learning. And it's always about education. And a lot of times when we find that we're not feeling very positive. If we don't grow, and we don't learn, we never figure out ways to deal with it. And that sends us down a spiral that isn't good, either.   James Davis  27:44 Yes. Well,   Michael Hingson  27:46 so you talked about photography. So do you do photography now professionally, or anything like that? Or what do you do in that regard?   James Davis  27:55 Yeah, I do it in the classification that they call an enthusiast. So I don't typically make money on it. But I do have some decent equipment. That $5,000 of photography equipment that professionals I mean, the guys that do this professionally, they have 50 100 grand in equipment, it's really expensive way out of my budget. It's taken me five years to build up what I've got. So yeah, I do that. And the nice thing that I do with that is because when we have family and friends that come out and visit us, you know, I take visit, I take pictures of their visit and all the places that we go to, and then for Christmas, every year, we make these little books through Shutterfly, you know, I just create these books and send it to them as a Christmas present to thank them as more of a thank you for their visit, and little memory. And then I also do calendars that we send all of our, our families, my wife's family, my family, so do you ever   Michael Hingson  28:58 sell any of it? Or is it all just basically for fun and to help you and reward you?   James Davis  29:06 It's been more as a fun thing to do. And, and for me, you know, it's personal enjoyment and that creative outlet. But, you know, I have several family members saying that I should try to make money at it. And I guess I want to look into it. I just haven't at this point because it's just, it's just been, you know, it's something I enjoy doing. It's like, if you enjoy walking on the beach, you don't just walk on the beach. So I joined started registered photography, right. So   Michael Hingson  29:38 similar interests that you mentioned a little bit about the fact that you like to write and so on, tell me more about that if you would.   James Davis  29:46 So, in college, I started writing in b&n poetry clubs, and ended up on literary magazines of both college So I want to. And so that really sort of stir my desire to write, you can't really make money at poetry. Do be honest, I'm not that great at poetry. I just love doing it as a personal exercise expungement motions and that sort of thing. But I ended up trying my hand at writing novels, and I did have written two novels to date. And I'm currently working on the third of a trilogy. So, and my favorite genre has always been, I think one of my first books that I ever read was The Hobbit. I love fantasy genres. So. So I wrote some fantasy books. But thing that I did differently was I used my history background, especially with my love of Minoan culture, as part of my world build worldbuilding. So I have these these matriarchal cultures in my book that that, that i is the focus of the book. And so it's yeah, it's, it's, that's been really fun and rewarding.   Michael Hingson  31:11 Have you so you publish them? I assume? Did you do it yourself? Or do you have a publisher   James Davis  31:16 self published? Just, yeah, I don't really promote myself, have a really hard time promoting myself on anything. I'm just not a salesperson at all.   Michael Hingson  31:27 Well, you know, what, if people liked the books, there's probably some value in it. Are you selling some, you know,   James Davis  31:34 a get these little trickle sales. So I get, you know, like, one, two, probably, maybe 10 or 12 books sell a year, something like that, you know, not a lot, but just kind of trickles in? Well, everybody has reviewed it and loved it. So   Michael Hingson  31:52 well, there's a message there somewhere, I would think,   James Davis  31:55 yeah, yeah, I think they're good books. Well,   Michael Hingson  31:58 and obviously, if you've had good reviews, somebody else does. So maybe, maybe you'll get some visibility because of our podcasts, because we certainly will be glad to feature the book covers and so on as part of what we do, which is, which is, which is great. Love to do that. So when will your next one be finished?   James Davis  32:20 You know, so hard, because the brain fog that I get from the enemy is very prohibitive to writing creatively. So, you know, and so I can't say for sure, you know, I was hoping to actually have it done last year. So, you know, it'd be nice if I could have it done by next summer, but there's no guarantee of that.   Michael Hingson  32:43 When was your first one published?   James Davis  32:46 My first one was published in 2014. I think then my second one I published in 2017. So it's taken me about four years to write a book. So I'm a little overdue for my third book.   Michael Hingson  33:00 There you go. What was the name of the first one?   James Davis  33:03 Guardians of the grove? The boatman Chronicles,   Michael Hingson  33:07 Guardians of the Grove, gr O. V. Okay. And what was the second one?   James Davis  33:12 Daughter of the forest?   Michael Hingson  33:15 Okay. And the third one, we'll have to wait till it comes out.   James Davis  33:19 Yeah, I haven't got a name for that yet. Because currently to see how the story unfolds?   Michael Hingson  33:25 Well, that's actually an interesting topic. Because a lot of times I find in talking to writers, especially when they're dealing with fiction, sometimes you never know where the book is gonna take you the characters take over. And it becomes a, perhaps a whole different thing than what you originally thought, but at the same time, it becomes a better thing than maybe what you thought.   James Davis  33:48 Yeah. I mean, I had my core characters, my first thing I did was I sat down with my core characters, like four main characters, and I, and I mapped them out what kind of personality they were going to have. And then the next thing I did was kind of build by my mythos of the of the world. So what was the religions? What's the politics and all of this? So when I was done with a world building, that's when I started writing. And you do realize that the structure that you gave that character in the beginning really dictates if you're doing it organically, at least really dictates how they progress in the story. And things that you thought were going to work actually don't work and you got to shift gears, and that I didn't mind that it's actually been kind of a rewarding thing to experience X. I didn't know that was and I'm not sure if all writers experienced that. But that's certainly been the case for me.   Michael Hingson  34:48 Well, and you know, it's, it's fun. I have not written fiction. I've written two books so far. And we just submitted a draft of a third one But it's been nonfiction I haven't figured out how to do for me fiction yet, and I had just haven't come up with it. So maybe one of these days that will happen, because I think there's, I love fiction because in reality fiction a lot of times is really an author speaking to us about their ideas and their attitudes and so on. And they use a fictional setting, but the reality is, it still is something that can teach us a whole lot.   James Davis  35:30 Yeah, yeah, I think if you got strong characters, that's definitely the case. One of the things that really sort of had this character who was a mother, who, whose husband gets killed early on, and, and I wasn't gonna plan on doing a therapy, it was just more of a catalyst for my book. But, you know, the feedback that I get got from that first book, everybody loves her character. So I had to rewrite her to continue her story arc through the whole series, because she was so loved so well. So those things happen as well.   Michael Hingson  36:05 Again, a message, isn't it? Which is, which is cool. Well, I know I'm excited to hear about the new one when it comes and I will have to go hunt down the the first two. You've published them as Kindle books, have you created audio versions, by any chance?   James Davis  36:21 There's an audio version of the first book. I was haven't got an audio version of the second book. I was going to use the same woman that did the first book, but I have lost the ability to get in touch with her. So I've got to find somebody to do that part for me to door.   Michael Hingson  36:40 So is that first one on Audible? Yes, it is. Okay, great. Well, that's, I will go hunted down. Yeah. And I hope that you're able to, to get the second one done in an audio format as well, that will be fun. You don't want to leave people hanging, you know?   James Davis  37:00 Yeah, no, that's everything I read. They said, You know, if you're doing a trilogy, like I'm doing, you don't really have good sales until you finished it, because nobody wants to start a series and ended up like, you know, like George Martin right now, where everybody has been waiting for, you know, over a decade for the book, you know, it's so good. So hopefully, I'll get them all out and get them all in audio here soon.   Michael Hingson  37:24 Yeah. Well, George Martin had several books out. And of course, he also was fortunate to have a TV series come out of it, too.   James Davis  37:32 Oh, yeah. He's amazing. Writer. So lots of respect there.   Michael Hingson  37:36 Yeah. So I love people with imaginations. I, I've been a Harry Potter fan. And I would love to see JK Rowling do something to continue that although I don't know that she will. But you know, the original seven books. And then there was a play, which I think wasn't really as imaginative as the the first seven. Of course, she's also written under another name to publish some detective stories. And she's clearly a good writer.   James Davis  38:05 Yeah, yeah. She's got an amazing story. Yeah, I love her work.   Michael Hingson  38:10 Yeah. And she's very creative. And she does good mysteries. So when I can't figure out a mystery, and we get to the end, and I really didn't figure it out. I love that.   James Davis  38:22 Yeah, that's hard to do these days.   Michael Hingson  38:25 It is. A lot of times, I'm able to figure it out before the end, when you're dealing with a mystery, but a good mystery is a puzzle. And yeah, maybe you can figure it out. So I in some, I enjoy figuring out because it really tests my brain, but then the ones where I don't figure it out. I can't say that I can complain about that. Because obviously, they did a good job. As long as when I go back and look at it afterward, I can see that the clues were really there to get it. Right. I just didn't, you know, they they hidden and didn't, I won't say hid them. But they put them in so well that you don't necessarily see it, which is   James Davis  39:05 subtle. What I really irritates me about other authors is when they take a character and they to advance the plot, they make the character do something that's out of character. Yeah. Without a catalyst. Right. You know, when somebody's a very passive person, and, you know, something tragic happens and they they become more aggressive, right? That's fine. But if nothing happens, they just all of a sudden become aggressive, then there's no reason for that. Except you're trying to make the plot move your characters follow the plot instead of your characters driving the plot. Are you Yeah.   Michael Hingson  39:45 Are you trying to do it to sell? Yeah, and do you think you got to do that and good character analysis and good character development? I would, I would think, tell you not to just go off and change a character unless you Something as you said, as a catalyst that makes it happen.   James Davis  40:03 Yeah. The other thing that seems to be very big these days is love triangles. And I really get annoyed with those. Yeah, some of them are done really well, and I enjoy them. But most of their doubt are gag. They just seem to be forced. And it's just trying to create drama where it doesn't need to be. Oh, whether   Michael Hingson  40:20 I would call it a love triangle. Have you ever read any of the Stephanie Plum series Janet Ivanovic?   James Davis  40:26 I have not.   Michael Hingson  40:28 Stephanie Plum is a well she became a bounty hunter in Trenton, New Jersey. They're funny mysteries. They're really clever. And she has a guy that she's involved with. But then she's also working with another almost superhero type bounty hunter Ranger who likes her as well. It's not really a love triangle, but it's really fun to to watch the byplay between all of these three of them. And there have now been 29 Stephanie Plum books and they're absolutely hilarious. So if you want an escape, you should go read Stephanie Plum the Stephanie Plum series by Janet Ivana, which they're really fun. It's definitely plum. That's her character. The first book is called one for the money. And the second is to for the dough. And it goes from there. They're they're really funny. And she's kept it very well.   James Davis  41:26 Yeah, one of my first humorous books that I've read was Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yes. An old college buddy turned me on to that. And yeah, that was just hilarious. I just love the irreverent humor.   Michael Hingson  41:39 Do not abuse a mouse   James Davis  41:44 that never ever read. Island. Oh, yes, Robert. Yeah, I don't think he would go over today very well. I mean, his stuff was pretty, pretty cutting edge for the time.   Michael Hingson  41:55 My favorite science fiction books still is the Moon is a Harsh Mistress by him. I think it's the most imaginative book he wrote. I like it better than Stranger in a Strange Land. It's always been my favorite book since I first read it soon after it came out. And I didn't even realize at the time, all about it. But I've read it a lot. And I absolutely enjoy it. It's one of my favorite books. Well, it's my favorite books, my favorite science fiction book.   James Davis  42:24 I always enjoy the fact cow in some of his books. He liked to kill off all the lawyers in the revolutions that he had always found that a little amusing.   Michael Hingson  42:35 Well, you know what the problem is, they keep coming back. It's cool. Well, so. So what do you do today, with your life and all that.   James Davis  42:50 Just basically, the photography, the little bit of work I do around here around the apartment complex. And, you know, we like to travel when I'm able, you know, that's the big thing. We've got a big map, down in the entryway into our apartment, and it's got all these little pins in it from all the different places we visited in Washington and Oregon. And so filling that map in has been my major endeavor these days.   Michael Hingson  43:20 What's the favorite place that you visited here or elsewhere in the world?   James Davis  43:24 My favorite place in the whole world was probably new cranes in Ireland. That was phenomenal. That was really, really the main house. Oh. So it's a it's a giant tomb was dome shaped tomb. And you get this really narrow entrance into it into this big rock chamber. So you get these huge monolithic rocks that have drawings on them and stuff and work your way in the inside, there's like these three separate chambers. And, of course, we don't really know exactly what the culture what all this meant culturally to the time because you know, we're talking 1000s of years ago. And, but it's perfectly aligned with the winter solstice. So the light on the shortest day of the year, shines directly into the back of the tomb, and reflects into those three little chambers in there. And going in there, and just sort of seeing all that in realizing that people from the Stone Age built this huge, huge structure. And it was just amazing. You know, it was It predates the pyramids, so.   Michael Hingson  44:39 So have you ever happened to be there on December 21?   James Davis  44:42 No, I guess it's very, very difficult to get to get a place in there on that date, because it's very tiny to get in. Probably 20 People at the most could fit in there.   Michael Hingson  44:55 Well, of course one has to ask since you've been to Ireland and so on, did you kiss The Blarney Stone.   James Davis  45:01 I went to the Blarney Stone, but I'm such a germaphobe there was no way I was guessing.   Michael Hingson  45:06 I hear you I had been to Ireland. I did not kiss the Blarney Stone either. Nope, not gonna do that too. Too risky. I understand you have to be somewhat of a contortionist to do it anyway.   James Davis  45:17 Yeah. Can't have to lean down and stick your head into a hole or something.   Michael Hingson  45:24 I don't need that. That's okay. No, I think they're, they're more important things to do. I loved Ireland. I very much enjoyed our two weeks there. I was there. Oh, gosh, it's been since 2003. I was there to do some speaking for Irish guide dogs. And that's the same year I was there. It was very enjoyable time. I loved it. And had had haggis pie while I was in Ireland. And enjoyed it. But I liked Ireland.   James Davis  45:56 We were planning our because I had been with my now wife for about five years, already six years maybe. And her family really wanted some sort of traditional structure in our lives as like, okay, let's just go get married. But I don't want to have to deal with inviting family. So we decided to have a trip to Ireland get married in Ireland and do a honeymoon in Ireland. But you can't do that in Ireland. Because you got to be living in the county for 30 days prior to getting married. It's part of their laws. And so then I called England, you know, the England section of UK and I said, Can we do that? They're like, No, there was like 20 days there. So then I called Scotland and called the town in Inverness, Scotland. They were like, yeah, just come on over just have two witnesses get married same day, didn't have any problems with it. So that's what happens. We flew in to Manchester, did a beeline to Scotland got married and then took a cut went over to Belfast and did our two weeks in Ireland.   Michael Hingson  47:08 We, I did a number of speeches over there, we actually had some interactions with Waterford I have a statue of it's actually a double statue was supposed to be a person and a dog but they only had dogs at the time. But I have this this whole very sophisticated platform that has two dogs facing each other. And then literally in print and in Braille it says as one Mike and Roselle, who, of course, was always the dog who was with me in the World Trade Center. And it's nice Waterford Crystal thing, which is really pretty cool. Wow, that is nice. Now that Irish guide dogs people were very kind about that and in all in setting that up. So it was wonderful to do that. I've not been to Scotland and I've not been to England, but I have been Ireland so but I've been to New Zealand. I love New Zealand.   James Davis  48:02 You know, we we thought about taking a trip to New Zealand. But after taking the trip to the UK, I realized that long plane flights do not agree with me for you know, like that was really kind of Miami was just starting to come on. So I wasn't really bad yet. But I was bi that was really rough on my body. So I haven't been on flights yet.   Michael Hingson  48:30 Now I understand that you work with an organization me International?   James Davis  48:34 Yes. When I one of the forums that I got hooked up with on the internet was me International, and a few others, a men's forum and in the advocacy is one of them. So anyway, so I got hooked up with them and and talking to one of the ladies on there, and she was helping me out with some vitamin supplements and whatnot. Colleen and yeah, and one thing led to another and they're like, well, you should join the board if you want. And so I joined the board and became a board member, probably eight months ago or something like that now.   Michael Hingson  49:11 So So what do you do with them now.   James Davis  49:14 So a sitting member of the board, and probably in January, there's going to be new officer positions, I'll probably fill in the role of the vice president that time. And then the other thing that I do form is maintain their website. I just recently did an upgrade to the website and updated it.   Michael Hingson  49:38 And that, of course is how you got connected with accessibe as I understand it.   James Davis  49:43 Yes. So we knew we wanted to have an app on there that helps people navigate the site because you know, one of the things with me people is they tend to be very sensitive to bright colors. And so we were looking at how to manage that. I mean the site it's selfies very pale. You know, it's very subtle colors. But everybody's a little bit different. So we wanted to have an application that would handle that. And one of our board members from Australia, she recommended that I looked into accessiBe being called accessibe. And they turned me on to talking to Sheldon. And yeah, and that turned out to be a great conversation. And we had been going with accessibe ever since cars have been working out. Good so far. I mean, everybody's been very happy with the site. Very happy with the accessibe program. Yeah, no complaints. It's all been positive so far.   Michael Hingson  50:45 Have you? Well, do you put videos and other things like that on the website?   James Davis  50:52 There are a few videos. They're more just information. More than just visual, right? It's just more of there are a few of them more about the history of the disease and how it's progressed over the years that our understanding of the disease?   Michael Hingson  51:12 Have you looked into working with accessibe to address the issue of either having audio descriptions of the video parts that aren't necessarily discussed about or for deaf and hard of hearing people anything regarding closed captioning or captioning of the the word so that people who can't hear it can also then at least read the text?   James Davis  51:37 You know, I don't? I haven't personally, but maybe Colleen or David might have done it because David's been talking to Sheldon too. But no, I have not. And they're the ones that put the video together. So I'm not really sure if that's in the progress or not definitely worth   James Davis  51:55 Me international.org Yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson  51:55 looking at, because accessibe has a whole department and a whole group of people under what you would find on the accessibe website called Access flow, that can help with the things that the artificial intelligent widget itself doesn't do. So it would be good to really try to be inclusive with that stuff is if the opportunity is there. I don't know anything about how all that works, in terms of costs for a nonprofit. And you know, you bring up a good point that me international isn't me international.org?   Michael Hingson  52:32 So the the cost for using accessibe isn't there. And I don't know how it works for the access flow stuff. But it would be worth exploring that to be sure to get the other inclusive parts up to make the website fully available.   James Davis  52:49 Yeah, one of the things that we're working with right now is trying to get the different apps to make sure they're friendly with one another. Also, because we're International, trying to get the website translated. So we got a translation app. And it's not been as friendly as accessibe's, trying to get all that stuff worked out at the moment. But you know, it's, it's having me, I can't devote 40 hours a week to this, I have to do it all for five hours here and there. And you know, whenever I can, so   Michael Hingson  53:17 yeah, well, I, you know, I suggest you explore that with Sheldon let him do some of the heavy lifting to help but he can get you in touch with the right people to explore that. But the whole idea is to make the website inclusive and nowadays is becoming more of a relevant thing to try to make websites work for everyone. And of course, for for us who happen to have a disability as we know, even the CDC says 25% of all Americans have some sort of disability. S

 My guest today is cozy mystery writer Kate Darroch. After years of wanting to be a writer, she gave herself the ultimate challenge: It's now or never! Find out all about her journey on today's episode of The Bookshelf Odyssey. We also have a great time talking about our favorite books and authors who inspire us - it turns out we had a lot in common! Kate also shares her encouragement to writers, and she also tells us the incredible story of one of our favorite writers Connie Willis. Find Kate online: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B09TR1NZML/allbooks?ingress=0&visitId=9a114bd2-7c34-40da-906e-db46bd07c1bc&store_ref=ap_rdr&ref_=ap_rdr Books Mentioned: Screwtape Letters, Surprised by Joy, The Problem of Pain, Till We Have Faces, C S Lewis The Counterfeit Codicil by P J Fitzsimmons Emma by Jane Austen The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein The Miss Fortune Series by Jana Deleon Dorothy and Jack by Gina Dalfonzo Becoming a Writer by Dorothea Brande Fire Watch by Connie Willis. Time Stamps: 02:22 Books That Have Inspired Us 11:01 Her Writing Journey and a discussion of the power of literature - no matter the genre 25:35 Spoiler Free Discussion on The Case of the Missing Peke, the Màiri Maguire series, 39:56 Writing Advice - and a beautiful story about Connie Willis ____________ There are 4 ways you can help support the channel! -Like and subscribe! -I'm now a bookshop.org affiliate - check out my shop and find your next great read! https://bookshop.org/shop/bookshelfodyssey -Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/bookshelfpod - My Amazon Wishlist: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/2PTGNQWISVZE/ref=nav_wishlist_lists_3 _____________ Find Me Online: Podcast: https://bookshelfodyssey.buzzsprout.com/ Voxer: @artbookshelfodyssey Discord: https://discord.gg/8MFceV2NFe Facebook Group Page: @thebookshelfodyssey Twitter: @odyssey_podcast Instagram: @bookshelfodysseypodcast ____________ There are 4 ways you can help support the channel! -Like and subscribe!-I'm now a bookshop.org affiliate - check out my shop and find your next great read! https://bookshop.org/shop/bookshelfodyssey -Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/bookshelfpod - My Amazon Wishlist: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/2PTGNQWISVZE/ref=nav_wishlist_lists_3 _____________ Find Me Online: Podcast: https://bookshelfodyssey.buzzsprout.com/ Voxer: @artbookshelfodyssey Discord: https://discord.gg/8MFceV2NFe Facebook Group Page: @thebookshelfodyssey Twitter: @odyssey_podcastInstagram: @bookshelfodysseypodcast

PJ and Daniel have some gift giving ideas for the readers you know.  It's also National Family Stories month!  Family is how you define it, and throughout human civilization, connections are built on the stories we share.   Gift Books Recommended: The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry The boy, the mole, the fox, and the horse by Charlie Mackesy We don't eat our classmates! and We Will Rock our Classmates by Ryan Higgins  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein Still Life by Louis Penny The Spenser Series by Robert B. Parker Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian Six Frigates by Ian toll Dry Storeroom No. 1: The Secret Life of the Natural History Museum by Richard Fortey Dictionary of the Khazars by Milorad Pavic No Judgements by Meg Cabot Cinder by Marissa Meyer One of Us Is Lying by Karen M. McManus

Marking the start of our second year, we return to Robert E. Henlein, a grand master of science fiction and favorite of us both. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is Tom's pick this time. Join Mike, the first sentient AI, and his best friend Mann, as they discuss jokes, solve problems, start a revolution, and ultimately lead the lunar colonies to independence from Earth. TTYpodcast.com Thumbingthroughyesterday.com

So what is a “polymath”? Come on in and listen to this week's episode to find out from our guest, Pat Daily. After hearing my conversation with Pat, not only will you know the definition of the word, but you will see why Pat fits the Polymath mold.   In his life, Pat has served as a pilot in the military, a pilot for a commercial airline, a successful employee at Honeywell, participated in starting a company and he is now even a successful science fiction author.   I very much enjoyed reminiscing with Pat about some of my and his early days around aircraft as we both have similar experiences in a lot of ways.   By any standard you can invoke, Pat is not only inspirational, but he also is easy to talk with and he is easy on the ears as well. I hope you like this episode and that you will please reach out and tell me what you think. As always, please feel free to email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com. Also, I hope you will give this episode a 5 rating after hearing it. Thanks for listening.   About the Guest:   Pat Daily is a polymath, serial entrepreneur, gamer, and the author of SPARK, a near future science fiction novel. Pat began his professional career as an engineer and Air Force test pilot. After leaving the military, Pat worked at NASA's Johnson Space Center on both the Space Shuttle and International Space Station programs before launching his first company. He has worked globally as a human performance and safety consultant.     When not writing or trying to bring new airplane designs to life, Pat can be found gaming. He is a fan of role-playing games – particularly open worlds with engaging storylines where actions have consequences. Pat and his wife live in Houston.   Social media links:   Website: https://thepatdaily.com Blog: https://feraldaughters.wordpress.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/patdailyauthor Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/patdailypics/ Twitter: @patdailyauthor Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/21521042.Pat_Daily   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes* Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Hi, wherever you happen to be, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Pat Daily, who describes himself as a polymath. He is also an author, and entrepreneur. And specifically, he's the author of a book called spark. And we're gonna get into that, but I'm gonna start with tell me what is a polymath? Because some people won't quite probably know that.   Pat Daily  01:47 That's a good question, Mike. And I appreciate the opportunity to be here and talk about that. The I fell in love with this word when I discovered it just a couple of years ago. And really all it is is somebody that's polymath is someone who's had professional success in different lines. So not all sales, not all leadership, not all engineering. Cool.   Michael Hingson  02:15 So where have you had success? Well, I've   Pat Daily  02:18 been an Air Force Test Pilot. I've been an engineer at NASA. I've started my own business. I've been a safety consultant. I've been   Michael Hingson  02:30 now an author. There you go. Well, tell us a little bit about you maybe growing up just to learn about you and your background and stuff. And we'll go from there.   Pat Daily  02:38 Sure, sure. I grew up in Seattle, Washington up in the rainy northwest corner of the country. From there, I graduate from high school, went into the Air Force Academy, graduated from there and started pilot training in the Air Force flew was a pilot in the Air Force for about 13 years and then decided that my, my life lay in commercial aviation. And so I went to went to work for American Airlines. And they agreed with me up until about the one year point, and then they decided that they had too many pilots and furloughed, me. And at that point, I thought, maybe I need to rethink this, this whole pilot as a career thing. So I went off and did some other things.   Michael Hingson  03:29 So you when you went to the Air Force Academy, did you miss Pike's fish market?   Pat Daily  03:38 Yeah, yeah, I actually worked there a little bit when I was in high school at a restaurant whose name I can't even remember right now. But But yeah, that's a place that's got a lot of interesting energy.   Michael Hingson  03:51 It does. I've been there just once. And I know someone who worked there in in one of the places in the market, but it does have a lot of interesting and somewhat unusual energy.   Pat Daily  04:04 That's certainly true. So   Michael Hingson  04:07 you, you worked for American, why did you go off and do after American?   Pat Daily  04:11 Well, after American, I went to work for Honeywell and ended up working for Honeywell, Defense and Space electronic systems. And we did guidance, navigation control stuff for the space station and the space shuttle down at Johnson Space.   Michael Hingson  04:30 So what what did you do there? Can   Pat Daily  04:31 you talk a bunch about it? Oh, yeah. And then there's, we didn't do anything classified there. I mean, the whole human space thing, at least as far as NASA is concerned, is pretty much an open book. The probably my favorite project that I worked on was a thing that was supposed to be a lifeboat for the space station and it was the x 38 project. And it was kind of a lifting body. So it had some have swept back and swept up wings that that became well we ended up calling a rudder Vader because it was a combination of an elevator and rudder, although it was way more rudder than it was elevator. And, and it was a lot of fun. Got to actually watch it do a few drop tests from NASA aircraft. And then of course, somewhere along the way, it was decided that we were going to use Sputnik capsules and Soyuz capsules to to get us back from orbit so we no longer pursue that project. So it was a sad day when they shut that down but still a lot of fun to work on.   Michael Hingson  05:43 I grew up and near Edwards Air Force Base. So my father worked out there as the supervisor, the head of the precision measurements equipment lab, so he was in charge of calibrating all test equipment and things like that. So worked with Joe Walker, of course, who was famous with the x 15. Going back a long way from the x 38. And, and was there actually at the time of the m two lifting body which was kind of probably the precursor of all of that   Pat Daily  06:10 down. Were bounced because I spent a bunch of years at Edwards. Whereabouts Did you live?   Michael Hingson  06:15 We lived in Palmdale. Okay, and one of my favorite memories, boy I don't know about today, but was when my dad would come home from work and tell us that he left our street, which was Stan rich Avenue in Palmdale, California, and drove all the way to Edwards without stopping once, which was, which was definitely amazing back in those days, just in terms of no traffic, no cars to interfere. And he oftentimes did it both ways. And in the evening, when he was coming home, I would talk with him, we both got our ham radio licenses. When I was 14, he waited for me because he could have gotten at any time. And we would chat as he was coming home from work and had a lot of fun just talking up on the two meter band a lot. And he would just keep going and going and never stop until we got to our street and there was stop signs. So we had to stop.   Pat Daily  07:09 That is really neat. That was a great memory to have your dad.   Michael Hingson  07:13 It was and you know, there were a lot of things that happen that he couldn't talk about a couple times we went out and visited him. And we would go to his lab and he said, Well, I can't let you in quite yet. We have to hide things that you can't see. Well, that really didn't matter to me a whole lot. But I guess my mom and my brother were there. So they had to do that. But it was it was fascinating going there. And he introduced me to Joe Walker. He knew Neil Armstrong, but I never got to meet Neil. But did spend some time with Joe Walker, which was a lot of fun. Of course. Yeah. He was one of the first real astronauts taking the x 15, up above 50 miles. What an airplane that was oh, and we actually would occasionally sit on our roof at home. And watch as the B 52. Took it up and dropped it. And they they didn't have anything on the radio that we could listen to. But he would he told us where to look. And so we actually looked and and watched it drop and then fly and do the things that it did. It was pretty fascinating.   Pat Daily  08:17 Could you hear the sonic booms? down upon do?   Michael Hingson  08:19 That is a really good question that I'm glad you asked when we first moved to Palmdale in 1955. We heard sonic booms all the time. Never thought about it didn't bother us that they were there. And I remember once we knew that we're going to be playing war games between us and a couple of the other bases in Southern California. And the way you scored, especially when they did it at night was to see how close you could get to the other bases General's house without being detected. And break a sonic boom. So I gather we at Edwards were pretty successful at getting getting close to the generals house. But yeah, we heard a lot of sonic booms. And then one day, they just weren't there anymore.   Pat Daily  09:06 Yeah, I wasn't there during that. That era. But but when I was we had a we had a corridor, we actually had a low altitude and a high altitude supersonic corridor. And that's where if we were going to intentionally go supersonic, that's where they wanted us to be. And that ran mostly east west. Yeah. So so that Sonic Boom would have had to propagate quite a ways for folks down in Palmdale to hear it. But yeah, don't ever do. We heard them all the time.   Michael Hingson  09:39 Well, yeah. And I would I would expect that. And the reason that they disappeared from us was because I guess too many people started complaining but you know, GE, it never bothered me. I guess, however, that they decided that they could be somewhat destructive, especially if they were close enough or loud enough to buildings and so on. So they had to do it. And then I didn't hear any until actually, we were down near Cape Kennedy once when the shuttle was coming back in for a landing, and we got to hear the sonic booms, which was fun to hear.   Pat Daily  10:15 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've   Michael Hingson  10:16 heard them loud enough to be startling. But the ones like the shuttle threw off. It was always like, Ah, good. They're home. Boom, boom, the double sonic boom, yeah, which was great. We were at a number of Armed Forces Day, events doubted it out at Edwards. And it was really fun when the Thunderbirds were there. Other people were flying the jets, and they would come almost right down on the deck, past us. And we were we were all together. So my dad said, well, here they are. And I said, I don't hear anything all of a sudden boom, and you hear the whole sound, because they had already gotten faster than the speed of sound. So the plane was there about two seconds before the sound of the engine, which was kind of fascinating. Yep. But we, we enjoyed it. And it was part of growing up. Never thought about it. And then all of a sudden, one day, I haven't heard sonic booms in quite a while. And it was I know, because people were complaining about the noise. Oh, what a world war two world. You know, the sonic booms were there before they were but nevertheless, as I said, probably there were some complaints about the noise. And I've read in recent articles that they they did decide that some of the the sonic booms could be destructive to structure. So   Pat Daily  11:35 I know they've they've broken windows before. And I know that sometimes livestock react poorly. And now NASA and industry are working on a thing called Quiet spike, which was programmed to reduce the the intensity of the sonic boom, so that an airliner for example, that would be traveling supersonic. To hear them Passover would be no more loud than the sound of a car door closing.   Michael Hingson  12:05 Right? There was I think something on 60 minutes about that either earlier this year, or late last year, which is where I first heard about it. So far. I guess it's still somewhat theory, because they haven't built the airliner yet that they believe will be able to have that low level of noise. But it'll be pretty fascinating if they can make that happen.   Pat Daily  12:26 It will be because it it seems like we've been stuck, essentially traveling around the world at about point eight Mach. Yeah, for for 50 years, and forever, longer now forever.   Michael Hingson  12:38 And it will be I think it will be great if we can really do that. And also have it on an aircraft that's small enough that we could even do supersonic inside the United States that will speed up a lot of air travel.   Pat Daily  12:52 It will. It will no it'd be wonderful.   Michael Hingson  12:54 But if I recall, right, they said they were going to have the first generation of that aircraft sometime later this year. Do you know anything about that? I know they've got the   Pat Daily  13:03 flying testbeds already. In fact, one of them is flying out of Palmdale.   Michael Hingson  13:08 Oh, okay. Well, we are now living in Victorville, so maybe we'll hear it on Victorville.   Pat Daily  13:15 I used to live in Victorville when I was able to George Air Force Base.   Michael Hingson  13:19 There you go well, and when I was growing up, compared to Palmdale Victorville was hardly a blip on the radar scope. And now, we have over 120,000 people in Victorville. And in the whole Victor Valley area here we have over 600,000 People go the heck and figure it out.   Pat Daily  13:37 I had no idea that it had grown that much.   Michael Hingson  13:39 And continues to we just learned that there is a new housing development, about two miles from here that will have 15,000 new homes, low cost housing, but still 15,000 new homes. Oh, my gosh, I know, go figure. Now. It'll be interesting to see how more how many more come along, but they're building a lot of stuff up here. And at the same time we see open stores that is vacant stores that don't understand why they're doing the building that they're doing when they got all this vacancy. And where are those people going to work? Are they are they commuting down into the LA basin? I work? Yes, that's I guess that's what's happening. And there is of course, a lot of that but I hope that they come up with something other than just going down I 15 Because already the traffic on Interstate 15 going from Victorville down through Cajon Pass and down the other side is horrible. Almost 24 hours a day. I've gone to Ontario airport early in the morning like at four and still take an hour and 20 or minutes or an hour and a half or longer to get to Ontario.   Pat Daily  14:52 And Ontario has got to be getting busier and busier too because I remember that that was when I first moved out to that area. It was the like the secret gym that the airport nobody knew about and had very little traffic and and you didn't have any jet bridges you just walked walked out to the aircraft and up the stairs. But still it was so much easier to navigate than lax,   Michael Hingson  15:18 sort of like Burbank airport. I don't think that they've gotten totally into jet bridges. At least the last time I flew into Burbank they hadn't. And the value of that is that they have people exit the aircraft from both the front and the back. So it hardly takes any time at all to evacuate an airport. Not evacuate, but get people off a plane when they land. Yeah. Which is kind of cool. Much faster. So as a test pilot, what kinds of of aircraft Did you test? What was kind of maybe the most unusual one? No flying saucers, I assume are   Pat Daily  15:52 flying saucers. Got to fly a bunch of different things. Most of my test time was in variants of the F 16. But probably the most unusual aircraft that I got to fly was the Goodyear blimp. There you go. Yeah. And I mean, did going through a test pilot school. And it felt an awful lot like climbing into someone's minivan because the gondola was that spacious that that roomy had plenty elbow room, plenty of people could sit around. It certainly wasn't, was a passenger compartment back in the days of the Hindenburg or anything, but it was, it was still pretty roomy for a modern aircraft cockpit. And we we went in and got to fly out over Long Beach and that whole area and I was the only airplane I've ever flown that only had one wheel. And I know because they tie the nose of the blimp to a big mast. And it just has one large wheel that casters around and as the wind blows it, it can weathervane into the wind and just pivot around on that little wheel.   Michael Hingson  17:09 Did you ever have any involvement with the flying wing? No, no at the time was probably before, well,   Pat Daily  17:17 well before but then the b two is a streamline wind design. And other than watching it, you know seeing it fly around. I never had any any interplay with it or never got to fly it. I do remember having to go out to their facility for something, a meeting or a test mission. And if you weren't cleared into the program, they had to turn on a beeper and a flashing light to let everybody know that that uncleared scum were entering the area and hide all the secret stuff,   Michael Hingson  17:54 tell people what the flying wing is a   Pat Daily  17:56 flying wing is if you can imagine, and airliner with its left and a right wing. And now take away the fuselage where all the people sit and where most of the gas is and the luggage, and then just join those two halves of the wing together. Now you're gonna have to beef it up a little bit, scale everything up. But it turns out that the flying wing design can be incredibly efficient. But it also comes with some pretty scary instabilities that you have to have to be ready to deal with. And so the earlier version, I think the XB 49 was the original flying wing. And it had small rudders to to help it maintain its directional stability. But the b two comes out at completely differently by using kind of differential speed brakes and spoilers. And, you know, that gave us differential thrust, I guess, but it's, it's a much more efficient and much more UFO like looking aircraft than we're used to seeing.   Michael Hingson  19:11 Yeah, well, it will. It will be interesting to see, well, I don't know whether they'll ever use that and probably not for an airliner or anything like that, because there's just not room for much in the way of passengers is there?   Pat Daily  19:23 No, although I've seen the whole design Yeah, and the whole design every once in a while when you see something in Popular Mechanics or something like that, where it's a hugely scaled up flying wing design. And of course, the downside of that maybe it's an upside is that everybody is now stuffed in the middle and and very few people get window seats, but the the times I've found recently hardly anybody is looking out the window anyway. And they tend to close the window shades and just get on their electronic entertainment devices   Michael Hingson  20:00 he up and it has its pluses and minuses to do that. But you know, I put on my earphones but I do try to listen to what's going on around me and try to stay aware. But you have people do that. And, of course, lights are brighter or when you're 30,000 feet or more. You're you're dealing with a lot of things. And as you said, people just want to get on their entertainment devices and escape. And so so that happens and then there you go. I'm still waiting for flying saucers and jetpacks, I'm ready for my jetpack. Yeah, that would be fun. I'm not sure how well I do with a jet pack. We need to get more information that comes in an auditory way rather than visually, but we can get there. Down. Yeah. Or tactically? Well ordered and tactically tactically. Yeah. Which would be both. There's an experiment that the National Federation of the Blind did actually now it's it started. Well, it started in 2001. Soon after September 11, I was at an event in Baltimore when a new building for the National Federation of blind was started called the Jernigan Institute. But one of the things that the President of the National Federation of the Blind back then did was to challenge private industry and the school systems, the college technical college systems to build a car that a blind person could drive. And in 2011, what they created was between Virginia Tech and some companies that worked with Virginia Tech came up with this device, they actually modified a Ford Escape. And what they did is they put a number of different kinds of radar and sonar devices on it. Other technologies that they felt would ultimately not even cost very much. But then the driver sat in the car and had some very long gloves on that would go up their arms, that had haptic or tactile devices that would vibrate, there was also a pad that he sat back against. And there were also something similar to the gloves that would would go around their legs so that there are a number of different kinds of vibrating things that were available to them. And a person was able to drive a car successfully. In fact, there's a demonstration of it's still on the National Federation of the Blind website or a subdomain. It's called www dot blind driver challenge.org. And what you see if you go to that website is a video where the now president of the National Federation of the Blind Mark Riccobono, gets in this device and drives around the Daytona Speedway right before the January 2011 Rolex 24 race, going through obstacle courses, driving past grandstands, and people cheering and all that driving behind a van that is throwing up boxes that he has to avoid, and then passing the van and eventually getting back to homebase. But no one's giving him directions. It's all from the information that the car is transmitting to him. And the reality is that, that it is doable. And he was driving at something like 30 miles an hour, so he wasn't going slow, and had no problem doing any of that. So the reality is, I think it's possible to develop the technology that would make it possible for a blind person to have a safe and good driving experience. And especially as we get into the era of autonomous vehicles, where things are not necessarily totally as failsafe oriented as we would like. And as perfect as we would like, I see legislatures already saying, well, even if you're going to have an autonomous vehicle, someone has to be in the driver's seat who can drive the car, and there should be no reason why that can't be a blind person as well.   Pat Daily  23:51 No, absolutely not. I mean, it's, it's all just a matter of data and input channel, right? I mean, right, whether it comes tactically or haptically, or auditorily, or we could have olfactory cues, maybe, but that that starts sounding a little messier,   Michael Hingson  24:09 probably a lot less efficient to do that. But but the fact is that Mark did this. And I think that car has been driven a number of times, I think he drove it around the streets of Baltimore as well. But the fact is that, that it is possible, which is another way of saying that eyesight isn't the only way to do stuff. But unfortunately, it is the main way that most people use and I understand that but the fact is not using some of your other senses, I think limits drivers a lot. I'm still surprised that for example, with Apple who has constructed all of its technologies to be accessible. So VoiceOver is built into every device that it releases. I'm surprised I haven't done more to make voiceover involved with interactions in automobiles. And there's an android version of, of all of that called TalkBack. But I'm surprised that with cell phones in cars, that they don't use more auditory output. And then like, you've got the Tesla where everything is driven by a touchscreen, which means no matter what you do you still have to look at the touchscreen. Why aren't they doing more with audio?   Pat Daily  25:20 Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And it, I think it gets to something I've heard you say on some of your interviews about sighted people have a disability in that we are light dependent, and you take away the light from us and and the world by and large becomes a navigable right to most of us. And that's just because we haven't tuned our other senses in the way that   Michael Hingson  25:49 you have. And there's no reason that we can't make it possible for people to use more of their senses. But the the automotive industry doesn't tend to do that. I think there's probably although it's still more emergency oriented. In aircraft, there's a lot of information that comes out auditorily, but probably a lot more could as well.   Pat Daily  26:12 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And so much in aviation now is, is really autonomous, that the biggest problem that aircraft like the the Boeing purple seven have is, how do we make sure that on a 16 hour flight, the crews are still awake? Yeah. And so they they build checklists to require them every so often to actually physically do something that the aircraft is perfectly capable of doing on its own. But we we want, it seems to still have that that pilot in the loop that pilot and control, do we get alarms or something that makes the pilot pay attention then to do whatever it is they need to do? Yeah, yep, get chart chimes, you get verbal cues, where the aircraft is actually talking to you.   Michael Hingson  27:05 Yeah, it makes perfect sense to to do that. And I've seen times where aircraft have flown, although pilots are still there, completely autonomously landed themselves gone right up to the, to the hangar or to the place where they let off passengers and so on. And all of that technology is accurate enough to do that today. Absolutely. There are several of us that are talking about the concept of trying to use some of the same technology I described with the the car that a blind person could drive to create, or build it into an airplane and have a blind person, fly the plane. And there's one person actually who wants to see this happen, and then be the first person to fly the same route Lindbergh did across the Atlantic, but be a totally blind person doing the flight.   Pat Daily  27:56 Well, that would be one heck of the demonstration of concept. But I'm with you. I don't think there's any reason they couldn't do that. There shouldn't be   Michael Hingson  28:07 any reason why we do have the technology today. It's the usual thing of a matter of finding a matter of will on the part of enough people to to make that happen. But I see no reason why with the technology we have today. We can't do that. Yeah, I think it all comes down to what you said. It's   Pat Daily  28:26 desire and funding. Sounds like a lot of fun down.   Michael Hingson  28:29 We'll see it be a fun project. Well, maybe you can help us. But oh, I have to ask this. In all your flying. Of course, you I'm sure you have flown in like the plane that everybody calls the vomit comment and had your experiences of weightlessness. Absolutely. And but you haven't gone yet fully into space?   Pat Daily  28:52 I have not. That's that's been one of my major disappointments. I always wanted to be an astronaut. And got a shot, got interviewed got to go down to NASA and then try to plead my case. And, and unfortunately, I was not selected, had a lot of friends that were selected, but I was not among them. You know,   Michael Hingson  29:16 Scott Parazynski? I do, we interviewed Scott, not too long ago. So he was talking to us about a number of the space station events and thought things that he has done. He wrote his book with the help of the same person who assisted me with underdogs. Susie Florrie. So that's how we got very good, which is which is kind of fun. So you went off and did Honeywell and and all that and got to work. I've never been to the Johnson Space Center. I'd love to do that sometime. I think it'd be a lot of fun. I have spent some time at NASA Goddard. And of course a little bit at the Kennedy Space Center but nothing really too involved in some didn't really get a chance to look at much of it but it'd be fun to go to the Johnson Space Center sometimes. So we'll have to come down and visit you and go there.   Pat Daily  30:05 Yeah, come on down, we'll take you.   Michael Hingson  30:07 But what did you do after Honeywell and all of that? After Honeywell, I,   Pat Daily  30:12 I launched a consulting company where we did safety consulting, and training and professionalism, professional development. And I really loved them, I really enjoyed the work. But after about 15 years doing that I was kind of done. So I left that behind, sold my share of the company to my partners, and wish them all well and, and move back into the flight test world. And so what did you go off and do? I went up to Moses, Lake Washington to work for Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation. And at the time, we were trying to build and certify a thing called the originally was called the MRJ, for Mitsubishi regional jet. And then they rebranded it, and called it the space jet, which, which, I don't know, I probably would have picked a different name, but hey, I'm not in marketing. And the thought behind the name was that they had reconceived reconceptualized, the way an airliner is built, traditionally, all the all the luggage, and everything goes in the belly. And that moves the floor of the aircraft up into the aluminum tube. And so you start losing head room and overhead, luggage space. And Mitsubishi had the idea, well, what if we just put all the luggage in the back, and then we have more room in the tube, and even fairly tall guys could stand upright in the in the aisle without having to duck. And that gave us the opportunity to build to build bigger luggage, overhead luggage compartments, and things like that. Unfortunately, that, you know, we, we got to flight test we built maybe seven of them that actually flew me see for here too, there are six that actually flew and then some that were just being used for structure testing. And then and then COVID happened and Mitsubishi decided that the program was far enough behind schedule and far enough over budget, that they needed to really rethink it. And so they they put it on what they call an extended pause. So extended that personally, I don't think it's ever coming back coming   Michael Hingson  32:39 back. It's yeah, permanently pause. So that kind of didn't help your job any?   Pat Daily  32:44 No, no, I got I got laid off from there. And thought that well, you know, I'm not I'm not working when I want to try writing. And so I'd already been playing around with the whole writing thing when COVID hit, and then just took it to the next level and got really serious about it finished the novel. And then, you know, long Behold, found somebody that actually wanted to publish it. You know, Michael, I don't know if you have this problem. But But I have a bit of an ego problem. I think that what I do is pretty doggone good. And so I wrote this book and draft one I thought, okay, it's no, it's no Of Mice and Men. It's it's not great literature, but it's a good book. And so I started sending it out. And and then I joined some writing groups, and the writing groups. It turns out, it's a little harder to get honest feedback than one would hope. Because everybody's worried that they're going to hurt your feelings and offend you. Yeah. And when they tell you you've got an ugly baby. But I had, I had a hideous baby. And it wasn't until well, she's become a friend of mine, another author, Alex Perry, who wrote a wonderful children's book, not children mid grade book, called pig hearted that she finally told me she said, Pat, it's boring. She said, your writing all makes sense. You can put a sentence together but it's like watching somebody else. watch somebody else play. A video came. And, and it hurt. But but it was exactly what I needed to hear. Yeah. And so I joined another writing group. And then I guess after about four or five revisions and 22 queries later, that Inklings publishing, said, Hey, you know, we think you got something here. So, you know, why don't we pair you up with a developmental editor and we'll see you We can do and they paired me up with a wonderful woman named Steph Mathias son. And she shepherded me through three more revisions of the book. And every time it got better, and largely because of the people that were willing to give me that honest feedback people like stuff, so that it you know, it got published and and now I've submitted book to to Inklings, and that should be coming out in December. And I've started on Book Three. So it's been, it's been a lot   Michael Hingson  35:34 of fun. And sequel is booked to a sequel, Book Two as a sequel. Yeah, great. Well, you know, there's nothing like a good editor, they're, they're worth their weight in gold and more. They're editing, right. And I learned that, not the hard way. But I learned it in a great way when we were doing fender dawg, because Thomas Nelson paired us with an editor who said, My job isn't to rewrite this in my own style. And to tell you how to write my job is to help you make this something that people will want to read, and to fine tune what you do. And and he did. We had, for example, I don't know whether you read thunder dog, but one of the parts about thunder dog is that it starts every chapter with something that was occurring on that day in the World Trade Center for me are around it. Then we went back to things I learned in my life. And then we came back and ended each chapter kind of continuing on in the World Trade Center. And what what our editor said was that your transitions lose me there, you're not doing great transitions from one scene to the other. And you got to fix that. And that was all he said. So I volunteered to do the transition examinations and try to deal with that, because it just clicked when he said that. I know exactly what he's saying. And I never thought about it. And and Susie says the same thing, you know, we hadn't really thought that they were as much of a problem as they are. But now that you mentioned it. So literally over a weekend, I've just went through and created transitions for every chapter. And I think that's one of the strong points of the book. And others have have said the same thing that the transitions absolutely take you where you want the reader to go. And it all came about because of the editor. Yeah, and I'm with you there. I   Pat Daily  37:31 think transitions are key. And I largely ignored them as well, in my in my early writing, that that of reading or consuming a book is actually requires work on both ends. And it's easier for the reader, if you pull them along as the writer if you seamlessly pull them into the next scene or seamlessly transition them. So yeah, transitions are huge.   Michael Hingson  38:00 They are and as soon as I heard that it made perfect sense. And the thing about it is I know now that I knew it, then I just never thought about it. So it's it's great to have a wonderful editor who can guide you. Well, your first book is called spark tell us about it, if you would. Spark is a near future science fiction novel, it.   Pat Daily  38:26 It takes place, mostly in Southern California, because when I was flying out there, I remember there being a solar power facility called solar one. And you could see it from probably 100 miles away during the daytime because it was one of these solar facilities where it relied on mirrors to reflect the solar energy up to a central collecting vessel that that normally has some sort of molten salt in it because it turns out that's really good for retaining heat. And then then they use that to transfer the heat to water turn that into steam to power a turbine and voila, electricity, by all always was fascinated by the whole solar power idea. And so spark itself is an acronym. It stands for Solar prime augmented reality Park. And, and as one of my readers pointed out, will pat that should be spark than not Spark as well. Yeah, but but spark doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. So I took a little license there. And the spark is a theme park for gamers. And it is an augmented reality theme park that makes use of both haptic technology as well as auditory cue News and visual cues in a thing I call augmented reality glasses that present the the player with a blended version of the real and the virtual. It's close enough in time to us that most people recognize a lot of the technology. But it posits some pretty impressive changes in artificial intelligence and solar power. And of course, it's it's got action adventure, there are good guys bad guys. The hero of the story a young man named wil Kwan shows up at the park, as you know, after his parents passed away, is his father dies in the second Korean War, which when I wrote it, wrote the book seemed much farther away than it does today. And, and that his his mom suffered mightily from the loss for her husband. And she ends up dying just few years later, and will is left as an orphan and things don't go well for him in foster care. And he ends up running away his goal is to run out to spark where his parents took him when he was younger. And he figures he's gonna get a job and just live there forever. Except that spark won't hire miners. And so he's got to figure out another way around it. And as he does, he realizes that there are far more layers to the game, and to spark itself than are normally perceived by others. And so he starts, he starts hunting a little bit, trying to learn more, he, he meets a young woman that or he has a disastrous first encounter with like, by the end of the novel, even though they still butt heads, they're now holding hands. And so you get a little little action, a little adventure, little romance, little mystery, and it ends up I think, just being kind of a fun novel.   Michael Hingson  42:12 So I would gather from augmented reality and everything else that, that there must be a lot of adventures and quests, and so on in the book. So if somebody were to buy the rights for the book, what quest would you like to see them convert into real life?   Pat Daily  42:29 That's a good question. That's a good question. I think my favorite and I D, detail a couple of the quests pretty deeply in the book, and one is called war on Mars. And I think it would be the most fun because it is the most expansive it, it takes place in mostly in Mariner Valley on Mars, which is so much larger than the Grand Canyon, in the United States. It is seven kilometers deep, that's four and a half miles deep. And it's it's nearly as wide as the United States is or long as the United States is east to west. And so I thought there were some cool things you could do with that out elevation change and, and of course, then there's got to be aliens involved in there, too.   Michael Hingson  43:28 I was just going to ask.   Pat Daily  43:32 Yeah, so So there are some aliens who don't take kindly to us being on Mars, and there's combat but but will is the kind of guy that he would rather think his way through things and fight his way through things. So he's, he's hung up on trying to find a more peaceful solution to our conflict with the aliens and I think that ends up being a lot of fun and wouldn't be a lot of fun to play out in real life.   Michael Hingson  44:03 Hopefully he figures out a way to get some peace and make some new friends.   Pat Daily  44:08 He does. Oh, good.   Michael Hingson  44:09 What character given that you're you're doing this a little bit future mystic kind of where what character was the hardest to develop   Pat Daily  44:18 the the young woman whose name is Shay Cree Patel, but her avatar name is feral daughter, and, and that name came out of something. My own daughter said that I misunderstood. We were on a on a vacation and they were in in shopping and I'd had enough of shopping in that particular store. So I just wanted to go stand outside for a little bit. Enjoy the fresh air. And she came out and she said something that I misunderstood as feral daughter. And I jumped all over that I said, that would be a great name for kind of a counter culture. clothing line, or, or you know, a boutique for women's clothes at a university or something like that. And she goes, Dad, what are you talking about? I said, Well, feral daughter isn't that we such no I and I don't even to this day, I don't remember what she actually said that it was not Farrell daughter. And it turns out that while I think I am a good husband, and good father, I am not very good at writing female characters. And again, my writing groups came in and were tremendously helpful. You know, some painful feedback, but also very good feedback to help me develop the female characters make them more authentic, so that, that neither of my daughters or my wife were embarrassed by the by them at the end   Michael Hingson  45:51 of the day, you mean, your daughter didn't help you? Right? She gave me   Pat Daily  45:55 one daughter, God bless her read all the way through one of the early drafts and gave me a lot of good feedback. The second one, the second daughter was far more interested after the book came out. And she was better at answering specific questions about well, you know, would this would this girl do this? Or? Or what do you think about this? Or how should he or she approached this? So they both been helpful in very different ways? Like, yeah, I, I was embarrassed enough by my writing that I put them through too many revisions of the of the novel   Michael Hingson  46:36 well, but if they, if they looked at it, and really helped unless you just were way too graphic with the sex scenes?   Pat Daily  46:44 No, no. And, and honestly, them that factored into it, I wanted to write a book that I wouldn't be embarrassed for my goats to read any of eventually, their children to read a call. They're calling you now. They're calling me now Dad, what are you saying? So, you know, interestingly, when I got the idea for the book, I was pitching it to my wife when we were out to dinner one night, and she's a fourth grade school teacher. And she started asking me all these questions, what about this, and this and this and this, and it would not be an understatement to say that I reacted poorly to the feedback. And at the end of the night, we ended up still married and still loving each other. But she told me that she was not going to read it until it was published. And so I lost my opportunity to have my first best writer critiquer   Michael Hingson  47:45 How about now with future books and the book you're working on now?   Pat Daily  47:49 Now, I think she is much more open to it.   Michael Hingson  47:52 And are you more open to Yes,   Pat Daily  47:55 yes. And I I'm better at taking feedback. And that helps tremendously. Because now I can I can discuss it a little more dispassionately and talk about what works what doesn't work in a scene and, and how characters might actually react. How old are your daughter's daughter number one is 36. Donner number two will be 33. The end of this year?   Michael Hingson  48:27 Do you have any sons? Nope.   Pat Daily  48:29 Just daughters.   Michael Hingson  48:30 So you've got two daughters, and they still and your wife still has some time to read and comment on your writings. Indeed,   Pat Daily  48:40 although my I'm probably not her favorite genre. Now she she loves historical fiction. So she'll, she'll jump on one of those books more eagerly than a science fiction book.   Michael Hingson  48:56 Well, okay, science fiction book. I guess we have to get to some other questions about that. So if we're dealing with science fiction today, Star Wars or Star Trek?   Pat Daily  49:07 Oh, gotta say I love them both. But I was born and raised on trek. And so I'll always be a Trekkie, even though I am a little disgruntled with some of the decisions they've made and some of the recent movies.   Michael Hingson  49:21 Yeah, yeah, my I hear you. But I like them both. I, especially the earlier Star Wars movies. I think, again, they've they've lost something in some of the translated translations later on. But they're fun. There are a lot of really nice Star Wars and Star Trek books, however, that are fun to read.   Pat Daily  49:44 Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, I actually tried to write a Star Trek book years ago, and I thought it was it was going to be good but it never I never finished it and The series move beyond one of my central characters I made Lieutenant Saavik a central character and, and things just move beyond her.   Michael Hingson  50:11 Mm hmm. Things happen. Yep. Well, and I was, you know, I like all of the Star Wars movies and I guess they they dealt with it but like the the last well of the original Nine with Luke Skywalker I guess in a little in a sense I was a little disappointed of course, I was disappointed that that Han Solo son killed him and what was that number? That would have been what number seven? But nevertheless, they're they're, they're fun. They're great adventure scores. So was Indiana Jones.   Pat Daily  50:46 Yes, yes. Indiana Jones that Raiders of the Lost Ark was actually the first movie I took my wife to go see   Michael Hingson  50:56 her you go down and how she liked it. She loved it.   Pat Daily  51:01 She loved it. I knew nothing about it other night heard other people say great things about it. And so I was delighted that it turned out to be such a good movie. I think it made a positive impact.   Michael Hingson  51:13 And were you afraid of snakes? I had to ask.   Pat Daily  51:16 I hate snakes.   Michael Hingson  51:21 Then as far as more I guess you could say science fiction, probably more fantasy, but something that I think has had a major impact on the lives of a lot of people, especially kids and helping them read is Harry Potter.   Pat Daily  51:33 Yes. That completely hooked. My daughter's my my first daughter got hooked on the red wall series. Brian jocks but then as soon as the Harry Potter's came out, she started devouring those and that is what really turned my second daughter into a reader was all the Harry Potter books. So II and that's the point, right? Yep. Yep,   Michael Hingson  52:01 I think we discovered Harry Potter with the third one in the series, prisoner basket band, we heard about it, and saw some new things about it. And at that time, there was still this company books on tape and we went in and we got copies, we got a copy and started reading the first one. And we got hooked. It was a little while getting into it. But it was a little boring at first, but we got hooked on it. And so we read the Sorcerer's Stone. And then we were hooked and couldn't wait for each of them the rest of the books to come out. So we read the first three pretty quickly because we were already on the Prisoner of Azkaban when we learned about it, but then we grabbed books as soon as we can. We got the audio books because my wife liked to listen to them as well, although we also got a print copy of all of the books, but we enjoyed listening to them. Jim Dale was such a great reader. And one of my favorite stories about all of that is that he was scheduled to read part of the fourth book in the series. I think that was the one published in 2001. When September 11 happened and he was supposed to be in Manhattan and was in Manhattan. He was supposed to do a reading outside of scholastic publishing, publishing. And so when the Goblet of Fire was published, he was going to be there doing a reading at Scholastic because they're the publisher of it. And of course, it was on September 11 And September 11 happened so he didn't get to read it. And we didn't get to go up and listen. But I remember that that was supposed to all happen on September 11.   Pat Daily  53:41 Oh my goodness, I never knew that. So she was going to be an evening thing. We're going to have to take off work, go play a little hooky to listen to the reading Oh,   Michael Hingson  53:50 we we could have gone up there without any difficulty during the day because we were working with scholastic publishing and sold them tape backup products. So it's not even a hard problem to go off and deal with going up there. Ah, okay. And when only going from the World Trade Center up to Scholastic, which is Midtown Manhattan, so was likely we'd be up in that area. Anyway. My favorite though thing about scholastic was we went in once I and a couple of wire other people. And one of the elevators was out of order, and they had a sign on the one that worked that said, this is for muggle use. And then the one that was out of order for wizard use only, which was really cute. I like that. Yeah, it was kind of fun. But you know, I really admire authors and books that promote reading and encourage people to read and I'm glad that that Harry Potter has done that and, you know, I'm looking forward to reading spar have gotta figure out a way to get access to it. I assume it may not be in audio format yet or is it?   Pat Daily  54:53 It is not. But I just started conversations with someone who could be the the narrator and I I've just learned that there's a huge difference between narrators and voice actors. And so I may need someone with voice acting skills, rather than just narration. Because I've got a lot of characters and some drama, and I want somebody that that can do more than simply read the words off the page. But I don't know how long it takes from day one to final release of an audio book. But I will let you know when it happens.   Michael Hingson  55:30 It you do have to get somebody who can read it. Well, I enjoy books where the reader is a as an actor and puts different voices into it. I've been reading talking books from the library of congress, of course, my whole life and early on, especially, they sought actors to do the reading. One of my favorite series has always been the wreck stop series near wolf, the private detective. Yeah, in the in the reader who did the best job was a radio actor named Carl Webber, who I never heard much of in radio, although I clicked radio shows, he did do a show called Dr. Six Gun. And I've discovered that and listened to him. And it does sound like our a Weber. But he read the neuro wolf books, and they were absolutely incredibly well done. So it does make a difference to have someone who's a good actor reading it, as opposed to just somebody who reads the lines, because they will help draw you in. Yeah, yeah. And I actually   Pat Daily  56:35 just downloaded thunder dog. I still do a fair amount of driving and I like to listen to books while I'm driving. So I'm I'm looking forward to hearing that. Well, Christopher   Michael Hingson  56:48 prince did a did a good job with it. I, I don't know how he would be at well, actually, I take that back. I have heard another book of that he read where he did. It was a fiction book. And I'm trying to remember the name of it, I'd have to go back and find it. But he did a pretty good job. He did this for Oasis audio. But there are some good actors out there. And so I hope that you have some success. Let me know. And if you need somebody ever to listen, I'd be glad to help.   Pat Daily  57:17 Oh, excellent. Thank you. I'll take care on that.   Michael Hingson  57:20 I have one last question I've been thinking about not book related. But talking about aircraft. Again, the 747 I keep hearing is probably the most stable passenger airliner that has ever been really produced. What do you think about that? Why is it so stable? Oh, I've   Pat Daily  57:38 got to agree with that a real champion of design. And it's got a couple things in his favor. One is one is the wings are Anhedral, which means that they can't up a little bit and especially when, when they get a little lift on him, they they get pulled up as all their aircraft wings do. And then the enormous vertical stabilizer lends a lot of a lot of stability to the aircraft. And then finally, I think Boeing just did an absolutely spectacular job of, of harmonizing the flight controls and putting everything together to make it a very docile airplane, certainly for something of its size. I mean, it carries so much fuel that he uses fuel for structural integrity when it's more full. And so we have that 747 is a spectacular airplane. And, and unfortunately, it's it's kind of aging   Michael Hingson  58:38 out. But how come they haven't done other things with that same level of design and stability? At least? I haven't heard that they have. But yeah, I   Pat Daily  58:48 think I think the triple seven is close to it. There have been very very few mishaps with the with the triple seven. And it's it's another marvelous airplane. I don't think they got exactly what they're hoping for with the 787. They did have some design issues, some manufacturability issues, but it's it's certainly a highly efficient and remarkably quiet appointment. So   Michael Hingson  59:20 what prompted the question was when you were talking about the Mitsubishi aircraft and so on, and putting the luggage at the backs of taller people could stand up. It reminded me of the 747 with the upper level for first class, the lounge where the pilots and so on were so it almost was to a degree at least a double decker aircraft.   Pat Daily  59:38 Yeah. Yeah. And of course Airbus has made the a 380 which is a true double decker full length. But that's that's another aircraft that hasn't exactly lived up to its hype. Well,   Michael Hingson  59:51 still holding on for flying saucers. There you go. Well, Pat, I want to thank you for being on unstoppable mindset. How do people reach out and maybe learn more about you? Where can they get the book? You know, love all your contact information and so on.   Pat Daily  1:00:08 Okay, probably the easiest way is the website, which is thepatdaily.com. And it's t h e. P a t d a i l y.com. And that has links to to my blog to the bio to all my other socials. I'm on, of course on on Facebook at Pat Daily, author and on Instagram at Pat daily pics and then Twitter at at Pat Daily, or I think it's at Pat Daily author, but easiest way, just the website, everything is there. Down. Cool.   Michael Hingson  1:00:48 Well, I know I'm looking forward to finding a way to read spark and your other books as they come out. That will be fun being a science fiction fan, of course. And I think we talked about it before we were doing this particular episode. But we've talked about science fiction and some of my favorite authors, I would still like to see somebody take Robert Heinlein to the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and make it into a radio series. Talking about actors. I just think that do. I think you're right. I loved that book.   Pat Daily  1:01:19 I loved so much of what Heinlein wrote, you know, one of the one a great masters of the genre.   Michael Hingson  1:01:25 Yeah, yeah. And I think that's his best book. A lot of people say Stranger in a Strange Land was and it was very unique, and so on. But the Moon is a Harsh Mistress is so clever. And there's so much to it. And of course, then there are books that follow on from it, where some of the world's the same characters are involved. Heinlein created a whole universe, which was fun, did it just sort of like as I did with the foundation series? Well, thanks, again, for being here. We need to do this again. Especially when you get more books out, when you get your next book out, we got to come back and talk about it. I'd love to.   Pat Daily  1:02:02 And and thank you so much for having me on your show, Mike, I really appreciate it.   Michael Hingson  1:02:05 Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to be here. This has been fun. So people go find the Pat daily.com and contact Pat reach out and enjoy the book. And let me know what you think of it. I'm going to get to it as well, I'm just going to find a way to be able to read it. So we'll get there. But for all of you who listened in today, thanks very much for being here. If you'd like to reach out to me, please do so. My email address is Michaelhi@accessibility.com. That's M I C H A E L H I  at A C C E S S I B E.com. Where you can go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast where you can reach out to us as well. I hope you'll give us a five star rating. And Pat, we didn't talk about it. Well, we should probably at some point, talk about how accessible your website is and get you in touch with people in accessibe.   Pat Daily  1:03:01  Absolutely. I did check out accessibe and it looks like something that once I get the website fully developed, we'll be in contact.   Michael Hingson  1:03:09 Well, we'd love to help you with that. But again, everyone thanks for being here. Please give us a five star rating and we hope that you'll be back again next week for unstoppable mindset. And again, Pat, thank you for being here as well.   Pat Daily  1:03:20 Thank you, Mike.Take care,   Michael Hingson  1:03:22 you too.   Michael Hingson  1:03:26 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

结束了一周的工作，在深夜为自己录一期节目，然后在天亮的时候分享给你。 祝你中秋节快乐，希望你举头望明月时有情感可以抒发有情绪可以释放，低头思故乡时有想念的人可以打个电话，或者发个信息聊聊。哪怕只几句也好。 曲目单： (01:49) 山下达郎 - 永遠のFULL MOON (06:14) Tension - 跟着月亮慢慢走 (10:14) Vansire - Moon Hits (12:57) 陈慧娴 - 蓝月亮 (17:05) Foo Fighters, Norah Jones - Virginia Moon (21:31) 莫西子诗 - 月亮与海 (25:44) Radka Toneff - The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (29:42) Cassandra Wilson - Harvest Moon (34:20) 岑宁儿 - 月亮见 (39:26) Alva Noto, 坂本龙一 - Moon (44:46) VoX LoW - Trapped on the Moon (51:26) Air - Seven Stars (55:40) 郭采洁 - 昨天的月亮是圆的 (59:54 ) L'Impératrice - La lune (01:03:07) 雷光夏 - 脸颊贴紧月球 → 选曲/撰稿/配音/制作/包装：方舟 → 题图作者：Joydeep Sensarma, 来自 Unsplash → 题图版式：六花 → 私信/合作联络： 微博/网易云/小宇宙/汽水儿 @线性方舟 → Key Change 随便听歌的分号《KC Jukebox》 → 《周末变奏》WX听友群敲门群主：aharddaysnight

David P. Savage is our guest today. I must say at the outset that he conveyed to me a concept I believe we all should consider. Near the end of our time, David discussed the concept, “Unlocking the possible within a culture of collaboration”. David will explain that and many other thoughts and insights during this episode.   David has been extremely involved in the energy industry throughout his career. He has led teams and groups and he also has taught others to lead using his concepts around collaborative leadership.   No matter what David teaches and says, I find him to be a person who is always learning. He also passes along what he has learned, a trait I admire.   I believe you will enjoy our discussion today. As always, please let me know what you think, and please give us a 5-star rating wherever you find this podcast.   About the Guest: David brings expertise, experience, and leadership including oil and gas, renewable energy, health care, entrepreneurship, stakeholder engagement, business development, coaching, and conflict management. Over a ten-year period, David and his partners collaborated to develop 5 companies and 4 not for profits. Since 2007, Savage Management has focused on building capacity, innovation, and accountability in people and in and between organizations and communities. Beginning in 2015, David has published seven books and hosted forty-five podcasts on collaborative leadership, negotiation, critical thinking, and collaboration. Currently, David is; ✔   President, Savage Management Ltd. (since 1993), ✔   President 2021/22, Rotary Club of Cranbrook Sunrise, ✔   Co-Chair, Environmental Sustainability Rotary Action Group D 5080 (SEBC, E. Washington & N. Idaho), ✔   Advisor, The Canadian Energy, and Climate Nexus, and ✔   Director, Waterton Glacier International Peace Park Association. Past director roles include the ?aq'am (St. Mary's Indian Band) Community Enterprises, Canadian Association of Professional Speakers Calgary, Heart and Stroke Foundation Alberta, Nunavut and NWT, Petroleum Joint Venture Association (President) and Mediators Beyond Borders International- Canada. David's public speaking highlights include; ✔   Mediating the Evolution of Climate Justice for Mediators Beyond Borders International (MBBI), ✔   Nobody Gets to be Right: How to Lead Collaboratively for MBBI, ✔   Leading as a Positive Conflict Resolver: Don't be an A.C.E. Hole, ✔   How to Produce Better Outcomes through Well Designed Collaborations for Rotary International Conference and ✔   Creating Shared Value is the Way: Collaboration is the Path. Conflict, misunderstanding, misalignment of organizations and their leadership, lost productivity, wasted time, and wasted resources resulting from limiting perspectives, distraction, and hardline positions are damaging our today and our future. Our shared future matters!  David's books; Seven books available in print, eBook, and audiobook. Better by Design: Your Best Collaboration Guide, Break Through to Yes: Unlocking the Possible within a Culture of Collaboration 2018 Edition, The Collaborative Podcast Series: Book 1: The Foundations For Collaboration, Book 2: The Collaborative Guest Podcasts, Book 3: The 10 Essential Steps and Book 4: Unlocking the Possible, Break Through to Yes: Unlocking the Possible within a Culture of Collaboration Think Sustain Ability published in Sustain Magazine Company to Company Dispute Resolution Council published the Let's Talk Handbook. david@davidbsavage.com / 403-466-5577 / https://www.davidbsavage.com/ Let's talk.       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20  Hi, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today we are going to be talking with David Savage. David is an expert in helping companies manage conflict and he deals with leadership. And when I asked him how he wanted me to introduce him, he also said and I'm never late for dinner. So I can't argue with that either. David, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   David Savage  01:47 Thanks, Michael.   Michael Hingson  01:49 I'll bet he didn't think I was going to do that, folks. But you know, that's what you get for asking in the answering. So Well, we're glad you're here. Why don't you tell me a little bit about you, maybe sort of early stuff and all that and we'll go where we go. All right.   David Savage  02:04 Really appreciate this. And hello to all of your network of fans out there who enjoy dinner. The background to me is I've published seven books and 45 podcasts on collaborative leadership and inclined conflict resolution. I teach negotiation, mastery circles. And I'm the grandfather of five. I've been in the natural resource and energy, energy transition business all my career. And throughout my career, I've realized I really enjoy working with people and getting business to work better together. When I'm called in to be a firefighter, when supper on the stove is on fire, I I find that it's often that common sense thing that people miss. Often the they get stopped in their stoppable mindset is to their anger and their their reptilian brain and their reactivity. And rather than one of the my 10 essential steps to collaboration is set your intention. So before I met with you in this recording session, Michael, I am sat and set my intention to say let's have some fun today. Let's go different pathways. So you and I are picking up on the same vibe here. But I always want to remind myself on what do I want to have for this conversation or what's the outcome and of course the outcome for this is not only to have fun and not be late, but also to allow your listeners your viewers a few nuggets on my perspective on an unstoppable mindset.   Michael Hingson  04:00 Where are you located?   David Savage  04:02 I live in Cranbrook British Columbia and Kootenay Rockies of Canada.   Michael Hingson  04:08 So it's not dinnertime. So you also don't want to be late for lunch.   David Savage  04:12 Yeah, well, and I just made lunch for me and my partner and so it's all good. And and in fact, in a couple hours we want to go to Naik into the community forest and it's some nature breathing in   Michael Hingson  04:28 fresh air. Yes. Well being a grandfather of five. So when you became a grandfather, was it kind of a quantum leap to I can spoil these kids and send them home at the end of the day and all the things that we hear about grandfather's   David Savage  04:45 Well, I'd like to tease that that grandpa grandparents or parents without rules. At the same time, I just love developing the relationship with my grandkids in teaching them value views and how they are loved and respected, I think indoors with my grandchildren, because in this world today we have a lot of separation, a lot of polarization. And that generation and the next generations younger than me, are the most talented and brilliant in history. So. So for my grandchildren, I want to allow them to, to dream together. We're in fact, with two of my grandchildren, 14 year old green and 12 year old Sarah, we're actually in the process of writing a book together to help them those possibilities in their mind that they can, they can create, they can they can be in. If our shared book is only read by the three of us, that's fine. If it's read by a young adult in Afghanistan even better.   Michael Hingson  06:02 There you go. Why do you think that you're unstoppable?   David Savage  06:10 Yeah, I struggled with that question. In preparing for this discussion, Michael. Of course, nobody's really unstoppable. But when I face dramatic obstacles, I really go to my values. I really go to my sense of, okay, who am I? transparency, honesty and integrity. take the high road. So in some instances, you know, in my own personal life, about seven years ago, I had a huge challenge in my personal life. And people kept on saying, Well, why don't you you know, play the same game as they are, I just won't do that. Because that would actually stop me to allow me to continue to evidence to my family, my grandchildren, my clients, that being honest, being an integrity and and showing my vulnerability, then I can include them. What happened with that is, at the end of the day, the really challenging several years for me, I came out, probably better than anybody expected. Because I would not be dragged down I would not be stopped and in my sense of who David Savage is,   Michael Hingson  07:34 well, do it. Do it slightly a different way. What what do you think unstoppable means or what is unstoppable mean to you?   David Savage  07:47 Yeah. I really believe it is a sense of okay, yes, we are going to have some major obstacles in our lives there, there will be diversions and detours. But to me, Michael unstoppable means I know who I am, I know where I want to go to. And and I will be unstoppable in achieving my goals, my intentions, my dreams.   Michael Hingson  08:13 You know, it's interesting that when phrases and words suddenly catch on with people, they get overused. And I do hear a lot about something being unstoppable or someone being unstoppable. And unstoppable is become a pretty, pretty major buzzword. And I think sometimes overusing those words diminishes their value. And another one is amazing. We always hear about something being amazing, or someone being amazing. I know, people with disabilities who succeed and do the same things that everyone else does or do are called Amazing. And why is that? Really because in reality, what it means is you just don't have a high enough expectation of us to recognize that. It is an amazing, it is what everyone else can do. And why shouldn't we be able to do it, so don't call us amazing. Call us normal call us part of society. But you know, it's that are unstoppable. And it's the same sort of thing. We overuse the terms, but I like unstoppable mindset and the way you just described it, because that's really what it's all about your goal. Unless something really causes you to change it. Your goal is what you you shoot for and what you work to achieve. It may well be that your original plan for how to achieve that goal may change. But still it's the goal. It's the overarching principle that stays the same.   David Savage  09:48 Yeah, yeah. And I love the combination of the two words because unstoppable to me, Michael, is the mindset. Yeah, I can be deterred Written, delayed and all that stuff, but if my mindset is, I want to, I have the skills, I have the network, I have the resources available to me somewhere to get to where I want to be, then it's really my mindset. It's the mindset that gets me there.   Michael Hingson  10:18 Yeah. Which is really what it's all about. Hence, why we call this unstoppable mindset because I think it really comes down to mentally what you think and how you go forward. You know, there are a lot of ways to do it. Some people talk a lot about visioning, vision boards and other things like that. And there's in some people just adopt the mindset that I'm going to achieve my goal. But also achieving your goal means that you're going to do it in an ethical sort of way, too. Yeah.   David Savage  10:51 And the word victim just popped into my heart and mind, Michael is, there are some of us, all of us some of the time, but some of us that just want to hang on to being the victim. Well, to me, that just means I'm giving my ex myself an excuse to not get what I really deserve. And I'm not courageous enough to take the risk of failure or retry, retry, retry, you know, I've got one client, I've been working with coaching. And they, they simply want to go to that mode of, you know, the world is bad to me and I want them to negotiate a better world for themselves. It takes time the victim applies to all of us. What I would also say a real good friend of mine for the last 15 years is a disability rights advocate lobbyist in Washington DC for probably a decade and really worked hard in integrity because she had visible challenges that I don't have and about five to seven years ago Rhonda decided joining in to take a break you know Washington's are sometimes a toxic place and and she ended up going on a three months walk about literally she just took a little economy car and drove around North America talking to folks and saying hey, do you mind if I sleep on your in your spare bedroom or you know, she often captain or occur. And with when we were out on Vancouver Island, she would go swimming with us. So while she had limited use of her limbs, she was unstoppable she still is and she's still a strong strong image and connection and friend for my family members that said well, flicks liquid Rhonda Dyson, she's pretty unstoppable. And it was also self care for her to to get away for a few months and just kind of hit reset,   Michael Hingson  13:09 which is really what it's about, to a large degree. I know a woman who happens to be blind and she and a friend of hers who also is blind. Two or three years ago, I can't recall which just decided they were going to go down and spend a period of time in Peru hiking and touring and so on just the two of them by themselves. And they did and had a heck of a time. And what she said to me was it was certainly unusual to do that to women by themselves much less to women who happened to be blind, but hey, we had so much fun wouldn't trade it for the world it's it's all about mindset and all about attitudes to do the things to do the things that we we choose to do and want to do. And it's like anything else. It's something where were our goals may take a while to achieve. I mean, I think it would be fun to drive a car to really drive a car at least I have in the past but really seriously now given the way most people drive I'm not sure I want to be on the road I I just admire my wife all the heck because of the fact that she drives us around. And and you know, the two of us and people are crazy. They just the way they drive and I hear her descriptions all the time. She also happens to be a person in a wheelchair so she uses hand controls and does it but geez driving has just gotten to be crazy in the world.   David Savage  14:51 Yeah, the you know one of the metaphors that I like to talk about and use when it comes to overcoming barriers is either sports or racecar driving, you know, if I'm driving my Missouri, at 140 miles an hour, 200 kilometers an hour, and there's a crash in front of me. If I look at the crash, I'm going to hit the crash. If I look at where the sliver of road in between that car and the ditch or the wall, I can get there. So it is that constant sense of where do I want to be and continue to look at that? I, there's just so I have no credibility, because when it comes to disabilities, I have many abilities. I've got many disabilities, maybe mentally sometimes. But at the end of the day, what I do with respect to diversity is I really focus on including all the voices, including all the perspectives, so people that are very different from me, people with a different culture, different abilities, different demographics, I really want to, to the best of my ability, include them in my negotiation, my leadership and my teams to say some of the most brilliant insights come from the most unexpected places. Often, oftentimes in my, in my green team, and my rotary environmental sustainability group in Washington, Idaho and British Columbia, the most brilliant ideas come from the 16 to 18 year old young people. And they tell me, David, we've never had this voice. Nobody's actually listened to us before. And we say, as the old folks, please, please inform us, please share your wisdom, because it is and when, especially when we're talking about sustainability, it is your future and our shared future. But we better stop minimizing those that are  nodes that are that we're in conflict with, they have much to teach me.   Michael Hingson  17:26 But it also goes the other way. And that is that people who have lived long lives who have been successful or who have observed life, also have a lot of information that they can share. And all too often, we ignore that as well, especially when they get past a particular age. How do we break down that barrier as well? Yeah,   David Savage  17:53 ageism is I think what we're talking about right is, Well, geez, I was an ageist once, before I got old. I remember telling my parents when I was a young kid. Yeah, don't trust anybody over 30. And oftentimes, in our culture, especially in North America, anybody that's over 60 Well, they're not worth the investment. They, you know, they're rigid, whatever, those shackles they put on our opportunities. It's just, you know, we are our job, as elders, as mentors, as coaches, is to create the safe space and mentor and help encourage. And I think our job is not to block the block the road just to continue that metaphor is, I find that there's too many people in my demographic, they're still trying to hang on to power. And our greatest gift now is to encourage the healthy use of power by those that are younger than me. So So I think it's a bit of a twist on the ageism. Yes, I love my work. I want to do this work for another 10 years at least, I'd love my clients around North America. But it's time for me to do everything I can to support those clients, those young people, those next generation, those people that are are different from me in so many experiences and cultures, it's it's prime time to get them ready, capable, accountable. And in leadership,   Michael Hingson  19:38 of course, you get to be 30 At some point, and as some say, it's amazing. When you think back on it, how much your parents learned by the time you were 30 Right?   David Savage  19:51 Yes. Yeah, I think I think I think Michael there is a somewhat predictable when you know, to me roles start saying no, most often, that's a healthy thing. And then when a teenager starts expressing and demanding their power, that's understandable and expectable, but at some point, but once those young leaders have their own mortgages, their own careers, their own children, it's like, huh, Mom and Dad weren't all that stupid.   Michael Hingson  20:25 And the other side of it is that, as we gain more wisdom, hopefully and as we get older, rather than saying no to those teenagers necessarily, it would be it would be appropriate to say no, but let me show you and tell you why I say that. And then you do have to let people make their own mistakes. And, and IT risk taking is certainly a part of what we all have to do. I remember when my parents were told that I was blind at about four months old, and the doctor said, send him to a home because no blind child could ever amount to anything, my parents rejected that. You're kidding. And oh, oh, it happens all the time, even today, that the expectations for people who happen to be blind are extremely low. And they blame it all on the blindness, rather than allowing us the opportunity to flourish. And it doesn't just happen with people who are blind. I mean, we see it with race and so many different kinds of things in our world. But for blind people, it happens all too often, my parents went the other way, I don't think to an extreme, by any means, because they always kept an eye on me, they always talked with me, but they let me do stuff. until I was five, we lived in Chicago, when I'd walked down to the local candy store, I'd walk around the neighborhood, I went to kindergarten when I was four, and was involved with a lot of activities around the school, some of which I remember and some of which I don't. But my parents then when we moved to California allowed me to take risks and a little bit more rural community, I learned to ride a bike and figure out how to know where cars were, when they were parked on the streets and other things like that. And they allowed me occasionally to kind of get get hurt a little bit or whatever. But there were always discussions around and saying, what did you learn from that? And I think that's the biggest issue that we can teach anyone is introspection, and say, at the end of the day, whether things went well, or they didn't go, well. What did you learn from it? And can you go back and think about that, can you go back and think of the choices and how you would improve what you do?   David Savage  22:52 Very much. So I just want to go back to my first of my 10 essential steps in collaborative leadership is sent set intention is my intention for that young person on my staff or my child, it's my intention for them to grow powerful, influential, successful, and brilliant and healthy. While there is one roadmap for me and for that relationship, or is my intention to keep them safe? And I think those are almost mutually exclusive intentions. Seat safety can do a lot of harm.   Michael Hingson  23:38 Well, yeah, um, I think the issue about safety is that we need to teach what it means to be safe and to stay safe. And then we need to let people make choices based on really having the the appropriate knowledge, which is part of the whole way we get to be successful in understanding some of these things. Because ultimately, you have to try things for yourself. I mean, how often do children get told don't touch the stove? It's hot. And you know, eventually they're going to touch the stove when a Tom but but why do they do that? Are they doing it just to rebill? Are they doing it because they don't understand what it means. And if if it's the ladder, it's all about exploration. But once they do it once, they won't do it again, because they now really understand. And it's like blindness. People talk about blindness all the time and they talk about what we can't do and that blind people are not really capable of working successfully like others. And of course, we can show lots of evidence of that. And a lot of blind people subscribe to that because they don't know differently until the time that They, in fact discover they can do what they really want to do. And employers discover that hiring a person who is blind or someone who is different than they really isn't that big of a deal because we can help them become successful, then it isn't just a theory anymore. It's an emotional buy in.   David Savage  25:24 Yes. I'm also thinking of another friend of mine in Calgary. When London, England was hosting the Summer Olympic Games, he was the drummer on the video to introduce everyone to the London Olympics. And no, just picture a drummer doing great work, really high energy. And then think about when there was the Paralympic Games. And he was a victim of thalidomide, he has no arms, and yet he's one of the best drummers I've ever heard. So there's there's a challenge to our perspectives. I think also, when I think of some of the helicopter parents who just want to protect and therefore disrespect, and disempower their own children or their own staff members, then I think of people like Michael, who was high up in a tower on September 11 2001, you should definitely wear it safe, and you survived.   Michael Hingson  26:36 Well, you know, and helicopter parents, for example. I understand it, intellectually, I understand and you do to what their concerns are. But what, and let me go on with today's world, it's got to be a whole lot less safe being a kid than it used to be, especially girls, but not just girls, but kids in general. And at the same time, if we don't find ways to teach children the same things that we learn from our parents, although we may be doing it in a different way we are and coming at it from different directions, we still need to teach them those things, because those are the basic things that allow us to survive.   David Savage  27:26 Yeah, a huge challenge and opportunity to change that mindset of we need to lock everything up, we need to keep our children safe, we need to need to need to need to, well, I still have family members and friends that don't have a lock on their house. So they can go away for two weeks and they know that house is going to be fine. That mindset of we need to protect ourselves against what might be out there. And I definitely agree with you might call that some of the risks are very great and very dramatic. And at the same time, if if we are falling prey to that mindset of fear and scarcity, it really takes away again, the power, the ability, the risk taking for people just to have fun outside, go out with your friends and not feel like you have to be driven to and from and all of that good stuff. God in your organization and being a be able to just do a lot of different innovative things together. When we get so tight, and so fearful of the consequences, I think the consequences are already here.   Michael Hingson  28:45 Yeah, and we, we make the consequences, all that much worse by not preparing people. And that's what we as older people also need to learn to do is to understand the society and help prepare those younger than we and use our knowledge and creativity to find other ways to teach. I remember being in New York before we moved to New Jersey, when I was working for a company, I would travel back to the New York area from time to time. And I decided I wanted to take a walk around Midtown Manhattan. We were up near Times Square actually. I was staying at a hotel. And I'm another thing I was I was gonna go to my favorite record store in New York City at the time that actually sold records even in the 1990s colony records. And I walked out of the door to my hotel. And this guy comes up to me and he says, hey, you know, I'm a guardian angel. Do you know who we are? And I said, Yeah, I'm familiar with you guys. Being around to help people and so on. He said, I'd like to just walk with you. And I said you don't need to. He said I really would like to and I said well if you feel it's necessary. But you know, here's what we're gonna do. And I let him walk with me and it was fine. Other times P and other people weren't around. But I would like to think that he didn't just do that sort of thing for me. And as I learned, and in learning more about them, I wasn't the only person who got assisted or monitored by these people. And it was really nice to know that there were people who were spending the time to look out for you, so long as they didn't try to restrict, you know, what you do. Now, if I wanted to go into the middle of Central Park where it was dark, I suspect he would have been a little bit more concerned. But I also wouldn't do that, because that's a reasonably unsafe place to be. And so I think that there are certainly practices that we all need to deal with to help keep ourselves safe. But I learned enough about the environment that I understood a lot of those things, and even so he wanted to help. That was fine.   David Savage  31:02 Yeah. I'm thinking about the definition of respect that I was taught about 18 years ago, me and others were teaching and negotiation mastery at the Omega institutes near Rhinebeck, upstate New York. And one of the participants came up to me and said, Dave, do you know what the definition of respect is? And I said, Well, yeah, I think I do. But obviously, you have another take. And she said, respect is not doing for others what they can do for themselves. And I love that. I just love that definition of respect.   Michael Hingson  31:45 I am a firm believer, and we need to teach people to fish, not give them a fish. And yeah, I think that makes absolutely perfect sense. I know that. And I've said it before in this podcast. When ever I've hired a person to sell for me, I have always, on the first day said, I know I hired you, I'm your boss, but I hired you because you did a good enough job to convince me that you could sell our products. So my job is not to tell you what to do and how to do it. But my job is to work with you to see how I can be a second person on your team, and add value to what you do. And as we learn to work together better. And we figure out how I can assist you, which will be different from how I assist the guy at the desk next to you, then we will have a better relationship and you will be more successful. And the point is that I could add value to the people whom I hired. And that's the way it really ought to be. And one of the value is that I could could teach them things and they had to be willing to to listen. And the people who chose not to take advantage of a lot of that kind of stuff weren't successful. And the ones who did were extremely successful. But it wasn't just because of necessarily what I did. But they were already on a path to being observant and analyzing and making good decisions.   David Savage  33:25 And may I suggest open   Michael Hingson  33:27 and open. And so we were able to be successful together.   David Savage  33:35 That being coachable that part of me being coachable being realizing that I don't know it all. And you and I and others can do far more together than I can ever do. On my own. It's it's apparent, but sometimes it's just not apparent.   Michael Hingson  33:55 Right. Tell me what you mean by Nobody gets to be right. I've heard you say that before.   David Savage  34:01 Well, we've we've talked about teenagers and somebody that and children and all that and and I learned as a father that raised my three kids on my own substantially. You is more important for me to give them power and accountability, positive and negative. Then I I learned in so many that conflicts that I've engaged myself in by simply listening and listening and listening. profound ideas and innovations changes to the directions come when I come forward not feeling I have to pitch or convince or sell you. Pardon me, Michael. So I think as a leadership coach, encouraging leaders and family members and parents to be more curious, the less polarizing and command and control the greater the outcome. So it is it is in this these complex times is a real power to be curious.   Michael Hingson  35:11 Curiosity is a wonderful thing, and we should never discourage it. And, in fact, we should encourage it. And all too often again, we discourage it way too much.   David Savage  35:25 Yeah. Yeah, all I can say is listen, listen, listen, I have in companies that I've been part of the management, we've run into some conflicts. And after weeks and weeks of simply listening to our opposition, we came up with far better capital expenditure and facility plans, and our shareholder, our shares tripled, very quickly. If I would have been command and control, this is the way we're going to do it, I'm going to convince you and I've got these rights while that company was still next door, and they never got anything built. So this is not soft skills. These are hard skills for communication for families, for organizational leaders to say, what if I stayed open? What if I actually realized that there's a gift in what the person it seems to be challenging me, there's something there some gems, some piece of gold that I need to uncover?   Michael Hingson  36:31 One of my favorite books on leadership and team building is The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. And yes, yeah. And I think one of the most important things he talks about is, when you're working as part of a team, when the team makes a decision, or even if the team leader says this is the way we're going to do it, you go along with that. But if it turns out, it wasn't a good decision, then the team recognizes that collectively, it has the wisdom to make a change, and to try something different, and it may happen several times. But it has to start with respecting that the team is in it together. And respecting that. Who ever maybe created the final decision that wasn't right, is also wise enough to recognize it wasn't right and then work to find a better solution.   David Savage  37:36 Very much, so very much. So. You know, Patrick Lencioni is an amazing leader. He's taught me a lot. Another book that I really encourage our your listeners, your community, to read, listen to take in is think again by Adam Grant. And I just want to share a quote that really, I think lands the point that you and I are exploring here. It takes humility to reconsider our past commitments, doubt, to question our present decisions and curiosity to reimagine our future plans. What we discover along the way can free us from the shackles of our familiar surroundings, and our former selves. I think that's a, an incredible invitation to learning. And through curiosity, and challenging myself to think again, and then think again.   Michael Hingson  38:40 Well, Jimmy Carter once said, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think that that's just as important. There are basic tenets, there are basic principles. And I think that as we progress in our development, which is another way of saying maybe as we get older, we make sure we understand the principles but then we have to teach those principles to others and recognize we may get to them in a different way. I mean, in the past, you went to school and teachers wrote on the blackboard, and they lectured to you and so on. It's a whole different world. We're still teaching, we need to adjust to the fact that the process might change. But what we have to do is still the same.   David Savage  39:30 Yeah, the my experience I just sold a used for runner, and my habit is to buy brand new and I want and then drive it for 500,000 kilometers 350,000 miles. And so I sold mine and and I had the experience this time because I had that vehicle for 13 years I had this experience of We put it on Facebook, and the awful toxic comments on Facebook from just trying to sell a great condition used for runner. Everybody had to pile on and be really rude and angry. And then they started to a social media fake that people that really love the vehicle said, Oh, no, this is really great. He was just astounding. So I just thought, you know, I gotta take it off Facebook, this is not a conversation where I can get my use for runner in the hands of somebody that would really love it and appreciate it. Went on to ge, ge and autotrader. And all those and there was much more civil. But again, you know, changing in culture, my view is, if you like a vehicle, come look at that, look at the service records, get it inspected, drive it, talk to the owner. And then if you like it, then making an offer. On those other online sites, people said, well, we take this much, and I said, I'm not going to negotiate until I know that you're going to come and look at it and see what you really buying. Because, you know, I could sell you a bucket bucket of bolts for half price. But that's not a bucket of balls. And and so of all the people there was probably 30 people on Facebook, that were posting toxic comments, there was probably 20 people on the other platforms that just wanted to talk about price. And there was only four that came in sight. And then I had a number of people saying, jeez, that is worth it. I'd like to buy that. So as a negotiator, I always say you know, the money comes last, whether it's your corporate culture, your family, but to deal with a the issues, the interests, the opportunities, and then whatever's left, we can talk about compensation. But in in my social media and my online experience in selling a used for renter, it's like, wow, that wouldn't have happened even five years ago. And yeah, I'd rather just, I was, I think it might have been with you and I talking last week, Michael, I said your three wonderful to have 10,000 connections on LinkedIn. But four would be very profound if they were the right four,   Michael Hingson  42:18 correct? Well, and connections is the operative word. I was talking with someone yesterday about a lot of the things with social media. And the fact is that, are we really connecting with a lot of social media, Facebook, and so on, you just talked about posting a lot of toxic comments and so on. But it took some heavy work to get to four people who really connected with you. And then decided this was worth exploring, rather than just spewing out a lot of toxic stuff that doesn't serve anyone's purpose.   David Savage  43:00 Or even selling a one size fits all solution. You know what? There's so many people that approach I'm sure you way more than me, Michael, just hit you with here's my package, and here's why you need to buy it. And that just doesn't work for me. It's okay. What's the challenge? What's the optioning? What's the pain? And then let's collaboratively come up with a solution or a service that suits you. Well, then that takes way too much time I just want to package? Well, you don't want to really solve your opportunity or your problem then   Michael Hingson  43:37 when people asked me to come and speak. And I'm sure you see it a lot to the very first question is what do you charge? So I'm, I'm glad to tell people I I say all the time well, in 2016, Hillary Clinton got $250,000 to speak for Goldman to Goldman Sachs. And I think I'm worth it. And in some people stop for a second. And then they realize maybe that really wasn't what he meant. And it breaks, but it breaks down a lot of barriers. And ultimately, my response is I'll give you a number. But we really need to see what you need. And I have I've done presentations where we settled on a number but I will also say as long as I'm there. And we do settle on a number as opposed to it being a hard and fast. It has to be a certain amount, right. But I also say that when I'm there, I'm your guest, and I want to add as much value as I can. And so now that we've agreed on a number, let me also say if there are other things that I can do for you, in addition to speaking during this particular time segment at your event, if I can do any other workshops and so on, let me know I am glad to do that because I'm coming there to help you to be of assistance to you to add value to your event and I will Do whatever you need me to do. And some people have really taken me up on that. And it turns out that I've done a whole lot more work than we originally talked about. I don't charge more for that, because I'm there to be of assistance. I'm going to be there anyway. And it's also a lot of fun.   David Savage  45:19 Yeah. So to your point, you know, you might do a keynote, and then two or three breakout sessions and private meeting and follow up. You know, I guess that's not only very clever and generous expertise, Michael. But it's also the realization that no matter how much money even if somebody offered me a quarter million, which nobody has yet, for some reasons,   Michael Hingson  45:44 offered me that I'm really disappointed. But yeah, go ahead. But even if they did,   David Savage  45:49 I think your quote, your response would be the same as mine is, how do we make this really effective over time? Because Because being a speaker, you know, it's not all that difficult to create some hallelujah moments. But I think this statistic says is three weeks after a speech, nobody actually remembers what you said. But they can remember what you challenged them with, or how have you felt? Yeah, so so it's a it's a long term commitment. It's not a pay me a bunch of money, and I'm gonna go cash a check and run away. Not at all not not for you, not for me.   Michael Hingson  46:27 That's my belief. And when people come back in six or nine months, or even years later and say, We remembered you, because, yeah, and we want you now to come back, or we remember what you said. And we really appreciate that. And we still hear from people about the time you were there, then I can't I can't complain a bit.   David Savage  46:50 I think that's true. And leaving earlier this afternoon, I was approached by a group by the central Canada. And I said, Well, how did you find me? And they said, well, our President participated in one of your negotiation mastery circles 13 years ago. So there you go. Some words still worked. And I think the other parts in you know, when we talk about unstoppable mindset and diversity and supporting those that aren't naturally are currently in the inner power circle. I think it's also important to allow them to negotiate what they pay me. So for example, I have a series of prices. If if, if a client is in a major conflicts, and they're going to try Oh, well, there's one rate, the opposite end is if it's a person, as an entrepreneur, or starting out or university or just not in the advantage position, I let them name their price. So sometimes that's free, and sometimes that's 20 bucks. And I'll say, okay, because I believe in you. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  48:06 And sometimes the, the, the amount has to be reasonable enough to make it so you don't lose a lot of money, at least expenses. And sometimes I've spoken just to get expenses paid, and I will sometimes do that. But I also find the people who just try to always negotiate you down to paying as little as possible, are the ones that take a lot more work than, than others. And they also can be some of the more challenging ones to work with, from the standpoint of just, they're hard to work with, as opposed to genuinely trying to deal.   David Savage  48:44 Yeah, they're the, they're the ones wanting to buy the foreigner for two thirds of the value, they're not prepared to actually make the investment of building a relationship with you designing something that's powerful. And, and I'm also thinking of that famous wine experiment, you know, where, where they took a bunch of wine experts, and they said, here's a $90 bottle of wine, and here's a $9 bottle of wine, and then got them to rate them individually. And then they switched the labels. And I was the one that they were told was the $90 bottle of wine was far superior to the 919 dollar one. So that there is that impact of you know, separate and aside from those starting out starting over entrepreneurship. You were valued more, the more you charge, which is kind of an interesting metric.   Michael Hingson  49:42 Right? Well, Trader Joe's, which is a store shop in this country, it's a decent chain, had Charles Shaw wine, or sometimes called to buck Chuck because they sold it for $2 A bottle. Wine wasn't the greatest in the world, but I recall many years ago, there was a blind taste test in New York. And one of the wines was to buck Chuck. And it won the top award for wine. And then when people discovered it, they all wanted to change their minds. And, but but the bottom line, is it. The damage was already done, folks, if you will.   David Savage  50:21 Yeah. So. So I want to I know that we're getting close to the end of our discussion, Michael, and I'm really enjoying this because you and I play together? Well, I believe. I want to ask you a question.   Michael Hingson  50:36 All right, and then I've got a couple for you. But go ahead. What is   David Savage  50:39 in this moment is one quality that you think is most important to be an unstoppable mindset? What's one quality?   Michael Hingson  50:52 For me, I would think that probably the most important quality is that you truly analyze, and think about what you are doing and what you want. And, in your own mind, create what you feel is the pathway to get there. And then be open to change. So in a sense, openness is part of it. But it doesn't mean lack of confidence. But rather, you need to be open to dealing with your plan. And addressing in your own mind the issue of how do I tweak it as I go, but this is where I want to get to, and I want the plan to be it isn't having a million dollars in the bank. I think I think unstoppable is when we are helping ourselves to move forward emotionally, intellectually. And through that, obviously, also, physically and in terms of our own survival and other things like that.   David Savage  52:02 So may I ask you a second question?   Michael Hingson  52:05 Oh, sure.   David Savage  52:07 How do you want to get remembered 10 years after you pass.   Michael Hingson  52:14 I want people to remember me as someone who helped them who was able to teach them something. And I want to be remembered as somebody who was open to learning. Thank you. Now why did you ask?   David Savage  52:37 Well, to me it is that unwavering principles that you mentioned from President Carter, it is what we would call an extra, you know, it's, it's how do I stay focused on the my pathway, if I could call it that way, my, my route my values. And oftentimes when I deal with organizations and communities in conflict, I take them to the future they want to create, and we can always agree on that, then we need to work backwards. Okay. If you want to be remembered that way, what do we need to do in the next three years, and the next year, the next month, the next day? You know, it's much easier map that way? Right?   Michael Hingson  53:21 Tell me a little bit about what you're doing now. And I want to get to your books also. But what you're doing, you talked about hosting and being involved in mastermind courses and mastery courses, and so on. Love to learn a little bit about that.   David Savage  53:38 But as we as we touched on earlier, I think change takes time. So the way I approach what I serve my clients, and my volunteer obligations is the set the intention, create the measurable objectives based on the challenges and opportunities and do it over time to a gently so that we're all very, very busy. And habits take time to change. So I prefer to work with people over a six month period as opposed to a two day period. And I also I also encourage insurrection. Some of my clients have told me that I incite insurrection, because in organizations when the people in the middle have started challenging the people at the top. I think that success. I think that means they're thinking for themselves they trust enough to challenge and their ideas can be now heard. That doesn't happen overnight. And oftentimes the person in the corner office or at the top of the food chain isn't very happy when that happens. So I guess the other pre condition is the Listen at the top must buy in and must be seen to be participating and be learning as we go together.   Michael Hingson  55:07 What's one question that you ask to help understand the leadership style of someone or a new contact?   David Savage  55:16 Well, something that I was informed of, by a friend who at one time was the VP of Union Carbide. Heather asked me told me this question asked me this question. In history, in literature in fantasy, whatever, what is one person that you most want to be like? So whether it's fictional or real, what's one person that you really like to be seen as? And that's not only an engaging question, because a lot of us don't have the immediate answer to that. But what Heather told me at that time was, she's used that one question, you know, what's that superhero that you'd like most likely to be? What like, is the most profound human resources, candidate or board selection committee question she ever asked. And if, you know, some people will say, I want to be Vladimir Zelensky, or I want to, I want to be, you know, Nancy Pelosi, or I want to be, you know, any number of things. Some people don't want to be Batman. But it can actually give you a sense of their playfulness of how they want their focus their pathway, their goal, their next shift would be. So that that's one question that in itself, we can turn that into our whole further conversation as to what's that all about? What does that mean to you? What does it feel like when you get to that point? So they start so they start to claim that space?   Michael Hingson  57:08 And you get so many interesting answers from that, and the people who perhaps have thought about it, although maybe they haven't thought about it quite that way. But then Nevertheless, when you ask the question, and it pops out, you obviously can, can go in so many directions will Why do you choose that person or tell me more about that?   David Savage  57:29 Well, in in Heather's case, when she was at Union Carbide, you know, this would have been 25 years ago, the new boss said Hitler, and she resigned the next day. And Union Carbide had a series of disasters over the next two years, I won't go into them, but horrific disasters, so it really worked for her. Yep.   Michael Hingson  57:55 So who would? Who would you answer that about what would your answer be? I was afraid you knew I was gonna ask that I   David Savage  58:01 was afraid. I've always struggled with answering my own question, Michael. Because I don't have heroes. Well, it sure I have heroes that there's many admirable people in the world. But I don't attach to any of them. You know, if if I said, Geez, I'd really love to be George Harrison. Well, that's nice. But it's so it's not me. That's not me. And I think, to me, it's about becoming David.   Michael Hingson  58:39 Well, and that's true. If I had to pick someone out, because I can see you might try to spring this so I was about to I'll answer. My favorite science fiction book is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein. And it's a story of the takes place in 2075 300 years after the US revolution. And as part of that whole thing. There is a a technician, basically, who works on the it's a revolution on the moon. So the moon has been colonized, and so on. And so there's this whole system where what you pick up on fairly quickly as the moon is being treated, like America was being treated by England in 1775. And there's this computer technician who's working on their major mainframe who discovers that the computer has as he put it woke up and it's, it's, it's established its own personality and so on. And he and the computer, and a few other people start to think about how do we revolt and rebel against the lunar authority, the company on Earth, it's coordinating the moon stuff, right and keeping everyone subjected to horrible things. And along the way, one of the people that he brings into this Is Professor Bernardo dela Paz, who was one of his teachers. And I would like to be most like Professor Bernardo dela Paz, because one of the things that that happened is that the professor as, as the main character in the book, Manuel Garcia Kelley talks about, he said, the professor once said, many times, I will be teaching someone, something that I don't know a lot about. But as long as I can stay at least a lesson ahead and continue to learn myself, then we'll make progress. It wasn't quite the way he said it. But similar to that, and I liked that attitude. And I just think it's the kind of attitude I would like to have is, if I can teach and as long as I can stay a little bit ahead and be challenged, and work with people, then I'm good.   David Savage  1:00:54 Yeah. So you're evolving your lessons evolving your own learning, and not simply rolling out, you know, the curriculum that you've done for the last five years?   Michael Hingson  1:01:04 Right. Tell me a little bit, because as you said, I know we're getting a little bit late, but we're having a lot of fun with this. But tell me about your books.   David Savage  1:01:17 Well, thank you, Professor dill abounds.   Michael Hingson  1:01:20 I'm you should read the book. It's a great book.   David Savage  1:01:23 I haven't read a Heinlein book in a long time, but I love them viewed beautiful art history and visionary writing my books. Actually, in the three books that I'm writing right now, one with two of my grandchildren, it is fiction. So I'm getting into fiction, the seven books that I've published so far on Audible. Kindle, in print, I've, it's really a breakthrough to Yes, unlocking the possible within a culture of collaboration. So I'll say it again, unlocking the possible within a culture of collaboration. And I guess, my 10 essential steps for collaborative leadership, my better by design, which was my 2018 latest book, I really want to help people work together better. One of the one of the things that I think is clever about the the title, the cover of my first two books, breaks through the s, is I've shadowed four letters in the title of break through the s on the cover. And those letters are E. G. O 's, and egos are the greatest barriers to collaboration. So I love the playfulness, I love having some artistry in that. And unlike any other book that I've seen, you noticed since I started writing these in 2015, and still writing, there's not a lot of books on collaboration. And the books that are on collaboration are not collaborative books. So along the curiosity and nobody gets to be right line, Michael, I reached out and include quotes, on my seven books in my 45 podcasts, from 100 Different people in eight different nations to say, Well, what do you think about what is the greatest barrier to collaboration? What do you feel is your highest value, things like that, that are really important and, and well, while I go through, some people say if you've failed a lot, and that's true, I have failed a lot. And it's important for me to give examples of how I've failed in my collaborations, what I've learned from them, and how I, how I offer that to the listener to say, well, this is what Dave went through. Now, here's what I might do. Probably the bit, if I'm asked, okay, what's, what's the one thing, Professor Diller pause and they want to come back to being playful? is just having that pause, Professor of the pause, just have that pause between stimulus and response. Where we can say what is my intention? What what do I want to create here? And is my No, we talked about a number of words that are misused and misunderstood. Collaboration in the last seven years has become one of those along with sustainability. They are such profound and brilliant words, but they're thrown out to without any regard as to what it really takes to focus on sustainable leadership on collaborative leadership on I'm actually creating innovative teams. Yeah, we, we think we can just call a meeting, and we'll do some whiteboard work? Well, no, no, it's like that speaker negotiation, if that's the way you approach it, that you're going to be a little limited in what your outcomes are. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  1:05:21 And openness is, is ultimately where it starts.   David Savage  1:05:28 Very much. So I don't like it to be right. I do not know at all I need to encourage myself and my clients to towards critical thinking, because speed of change, and the increase in complexity is getting more and more challenging at every moment. So we must go there as opposed to defensive, angry, control based leadership.   Michael Hingson  1:05:56 Well, David, it has been absolutely fun having you on unstoppable mindset, how can people reach out to you and learn more about you, and maybe contact you?   David Savage  1:06:07 Thank you, Michael, for the opportunity to speak with you for this hours, it has been delightful again, I really appreciate you and my website would be David B savage.com. And you can find that ton of resources, videos, audio, their downloads. And what I would offer is anybody that contacts me, and quotes here in new and I talk in this podcast, then I will offer them a free digital copy of my book better by design, how to create better outcomes through well designed collaboration. And I'd be happy to have a conversation with any of your listeners just to say, okay, what can I learn? What can I learn from you today? There you go.   Michael Hingson  1:07:06 Well, perfect. So I hope people will reach out to you. And I'd love to hear how that goes and what you what you discover and and who interacts with you. So I, of course want to keep in touch and communicate. Anyway, I've learned a lot today. And I have always been a believer that if I don't learn as least as much as whoever I'm working with, then I haven't done my job right. So I really appreciate all this time with you. And we will spend some more together, I'm sure.   David Savage  1:07:37 Thank you so much, Michael and take good care.   Michael Hingson  1:07:40 Well, you as well. And everyone who's listening. Remember, go to David be savage.com. And if you reach out to David refer to unstoppable mindset podcast, and you can get a free digital copy of his book. I'd like to hear from you to know what you thought of today's so please feel free to reach out to me my email address is Michaelhi at accessibe.com. That's M I C H A E L H I at A C C S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson M i C H A E L H I N G S O N.com/podcast. Thanks again for listening. Thanks for being here. Hope you'll join us next week. And when you rate this podcast, we hope that you will do that and give us a five star rating. We would appreciate it very much. So again, David, thank you very much for being here. Thank you. We'll see you all next time.   Michael Hingson  1:08:43 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Seg 1 – Biden's Political Legacy with Bill Walton – with Host of the Bill Walton Show, Bill WaltonSeg 2 – The End of Political Compromise? - with Host of the Bill Walton Show, Bill WaltonSeg 3 – Dems Push for SCOTUS Term Limits – with constitutional attorney Scott D. Cosenza esq.Seg 4 – NJ Beer and for Whom the Amazon Bell Tolls – with constitutional attorney Scott D. Cosenza esq.

Ana and Dan put on their p-suits and shove "Ayn Rand in space" into the airlock, because certain kinds of political hectoring should be a capital offense among decent people. Why do people love this book? No, seriously, why? There is IR but absolutely zero critiques of capitalism in this book. Get bonus content on Patreon See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ana and Dan put on their p-suits and shove "Ayn Rand in space" into the airlock, because certain kinds of political hectoring should be a capital offense among decent people. Why do people love this book? No, seriously, why? There is IR but absolutely zero critiques of capitalism in this book. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Video Games: Inscryption Chess.com Timberborn Board Games: Dune Imperium The Crew Machi Koro (Not Machi Koro 2!) + The Harbor and Millionaires Row Expansion 7 Wonders Books: Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Red Rising Series by Pierce Brown The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein The Blacktongue Thief by Christopher Buehlman The Shattered Sea Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman (Self-Help) Movies/TV: Arcane Fantastic Fungi Documentary Workout: heriapro workout app Crossfit Knees over toes (For those that need to rehab their knees) Software: Greyscale your phone Lowes and Home Depot app Item under $100 JBL charge 4 portable speakers Lapdesk ($30) + Backrest ($60) Mulch + Pavers + Plants Item under $10 Screen cleaner + Micro-towel kit Casio Watch

On April 10th 1834 a fire broke out at 1140 Royal Street in the city of New Orleans. The estates mistress, local socialite Delphine Lalaurie was attempting to retrieve her most valuable possession in a hysterical daze. Meanwhile, a crowd had formed to behold the spectacle, and sensing nothing had been done to stop it, they sprang into action. Soon the police and fire department arrived, and what they discovered in that house would go down as one of the most gruesome scenes in US history. The actions carried out by Madame Delphine therein haunt the land underneath her historic manse to this very day. This week we explore cruelty, entitlement, the history of the enslaved people of Louisiana, and just for good measure, the youngest doctor ever.    Click to learn more WWBD Merch Buy your WWBD swag here!  Join the Conversation       

Join Elisabeth, Kristina, and Russell as they chat with Shellie about their favorite sci-fi/fantasy books. They talk about the different types of sci-fi/fantasy, favorite authors, and what they are currently streaming. Books, authors, and subgenres mentioned: Echo by Pam Muñoz Ryan Jim Butcher The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein Paranormal Romance Simon R. Green The Stand by Stephen King

Still weakened from their battle with Fael's minions, the party flees Auril's rampage across Bryn Shander. After a tense discussion with their allies; they hatch a daring plan to mount a rescue at the Frostmaiden's home of Solstice Isle and set sail with a crew of colorful characters. Geppi Iaia, Dungeon Master J. Scala as Wink Andy Burger as Everett Jimmy Affatigato as Jib Produced by Jimmy Affatigato Edited by J. Scala Music by Andy Burger Art by Alexa Reilly Support Pods of the Multiverse on Patreon Join our Discord Follow @multiverse_pod on Twitter

On August 2, 2011, Thunder Dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero was officially released. Overnight it became a bestseller book on the NY Times Bestseller list and even rose to the #1 rank. I was the principal author, but in 2010 I met Susy Flory, herself a full-time author, who helped bring the story alive.   Now, you get to meet Susy and hear her story. There is an incredible and fascinating story to Susy's life and her books. She even gets into a discussion of the need for authors to make their websites accessible for persons with disabilities during our interview. My time with Susy in this interview was fun, informative, and not boring in any way. I hope you think so as well. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About Our Guest: Susy Flory is a #1 New York Times best-selling author or co-author of fourteen books, including The Sky Below, a new memoir with Hall of Fame Astronaut/Explorer Scott Parazynski, and Desired by God with Van Moody. Susy grew up on the back of a quarter horse in Northern California and took degrees from UCLA in English and psychology. She has a background in journalism, education, and communications and directs a San Francisco Bay Area writers conference. She first started writing at the Newhall Signal with the legendary Scotty Newhall, an ex-editor of the San Francisco Chronicle and a one-legged cigar-smoking curmudgeon who ruled the newsroom from behind a dented metal desk where he pounded out stories on an Underwood Typewriter. She taught high school English and journalism, then quit in 2004 to write full time for publications such as Focus on the Family, Guideposts Books, In Touch, Praise & Coffee, Today's Christian, and Today's Christian Woman. Susy's books include So Long Status Quo: What I Learned From the Women Who Changed the World, as well as the much-anticipated 2011 memoir she co-wrote with blind 9-11 survivor Michael Hingson, called Thunder Dog: The True Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dog, and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero. Thunder Dog was a runaway bestseller and spent over a dozen weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. .http://www.susyflory.com/ https://www.facebook.com/everythingmemoir About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have a person who I regard as a very special guest. I'm a little bit prejudiced, though. You know, my story if you've listened to these podcasts regularly, 20 years ago, I worked in the World Trade Center and escaped with my guide dog Roselle. And in I think, June, if I recall, right, maybe it was earlier than that. Maybe it was like April or May of 2010. I got a phone call on a Sunday afternoon from a woman who said that she was writing a book called Dog tails. And she said she wanted to include Roselle story. I noticed that wasn't my story. It was rosellas story in her book, and asked if I would tell her our story. And I did. There was this pause afterward. And then she said, Why aren't you writing your own book. And she offered to help. And the result of that was that Suzy Florrie introduced me to her agent, we created a proposal and thunder dog was published in August, officially released in August of 2011. And I thought it would be kind of fun to have Susie on to tell her story. And to compare notes and talk about whatever comes along. So Susie, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Susy Flory  02:38 Thank you, Mike, I'm so glad to be here with you.   Michael Hingson  02:43 I'm been looking forward to this for a while. And I think that we'll have a lot of fun. And we'll see who all we can can pick on what can I say. But here we are. So So tell me what got you into writing in the first place, what made you start to go down that that path.   Susy Flory  03:04 It was kind of a childhood dream. It's kind of one of those, you know, I want to be a lion tamer, I want to be an astronaut kind of dreams for me. Because I didn't know any writers. And I didn't, I had no idea how to go about it. But I just always loved reading. And I know you love reading too. We're very alike in that way. And so I just grew up in a book of world, a world of books and ideas and stories. And just always thought, Wow, if I could do that, but I didn't think it was a real kind of dream. And then I got to work at a newspaper. And I sort of started to see that there might be a way in. And it wasn't until my late 30s that I went to a Writers Conference. And I remember seeing a book editor walk by for a publishing house and he was wearing kind of grubby tennis shoes and jeans and a T shirt. And I thought he's just a normal guy. He's just a regular person because I think I thought you know, people who did writing and publishing were highly evolved beings that I could not be a part of. And so that was just kind of my way it was just seeing Hey, maybe I can do this.   Michael Hingson  04:23 And there you are.   Susy Flory  04:26 So you know overnight successn 20 years.   Michael Hingson  04:30 So you were working. You were working in a newspaper what were your reporter   Susy Flory  04:35 I was a features writer. Okay, I'm not really a hard news person. All they love to read the news, but I love the stories behind the news, and particularly people stories. So even though I was reading that book, dog tails, you know, I was very interested in the people's tails as well. And so I love meeting interesting, unique people who have a story to tell which is almost everyone in the world. If you sit down and talk to them   Michael Hingson  05:03 well, how did you? So how did you get into doing a book.   Susy Flory  05:09 So that's another big jump. So when you're in a newspaper, you know, you get an assignment or you get a lead, or you have an idea yourself, and you got write a little story on it. And you can do it in a few days, typically. So I kind of knew how to do that. But it wasn't enough for me, I, you know, wrote some shorter stories, got some things published. And then just found myself wanting to go deeper and do research and be people and just get bigger stories down on paper. So that was kind of a craving for me. And I think it's because I gravitated towards books, because I loved books so much. And so what my second book, one of my very early books was a memoir that I wrote for myself. It's called a stunt memoir. And it's kind of where you're set yourself some assignments, and then you live them out and write about them. So I decided to investigate women who I thought had changed the world, people like Harriet Tubman, Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, Rosie the Riveter and do something that those women had done. And I just created like this little set of assignments for myself. And I was terrified because writing a book is really hard, as you know, or maybe it was easy for you. I don't know, like, maybe it was easy for you. But writing a book is hard for me. But I enjoyed it so much the challenge, and it pushed me and challenged me. So that's kind of how I shifted from writing articles, which felt doable to books, which seemed extremely hard and scary.   Michael Hingson  06:50 What was your first book published?   Susy Flory  06:53 So my first book was about the Davinci Code. Do you remember that story? Yes. It was published in the early 2000s. And it really took the writing and publishing world by storm unexpectedly. And there was a lot to talk about in the book was about Jesus, and maybe he was married. Maybe there was this whole mystery that we didn't know. And the book was fiction, it was all made up. But it really touched on some things I think people were curious about. So my first book was called fear, not the VINCI. And it kind of centered on these big questions that people had.   Michael Hingson  07:32 How did you get it published? Since you had not published a book before?   Susy Flory  07:37 Good question, because I didn't have an agent at that point. And basically, what you do is you start submitting. So without an agent, you create what's called a query letter. And it's basically a pitch a short pitch. And back in the day, you could either mail them, so you would write a letter with a self addressed stamped envelope, hoping that you would get a response. Or it was really kind of early days of email correspondence, as well. So you can do either and you would contact, you would basically be cold, calling editors, and trying to get them excited about you and your writing, and whatever your idea was. So that's what I did. And I got 13 rejections on that first book. And number 14, I found an editor who was interested, who I had met at a writers conference. So I think when they meet brand new writers at a Writers Conference, industry, people, they can see that you're not a crazy person, and they might want to work with you. So it's a good groundwork to lay. So going to a conference meeting another and then writing these query letters. That's how I got that book deal.   Michael Hingson  08:53 I was that evolves to today, is the process different now do you think,   Susy Flory  08:59 um, it's very similar. If you don't have an agent, you still have to jump through these hoops. And that's how they weed a lot of people out to, you know, are not informed to want an easy way in. And so the pitching process is similar, but right now I have an agent so that that literary agent helps with that process. But I still have to create the pitch, still create a book proposal still, you know, develop the whole thing without actually writing it yet. And then, you know, the publisher needs to see what this book is going to be. They need a very good idea of it before they invest in it. So it's a lot of work. It's kind of that pre production part.   Michael Hingson  09:49 Yeah. Which is true, whether it's in writing or in selling or anything that you do, or that anyone does. There's always going to be a process and In a sense, it's good. It hasn't changed. Because, as you said, so many people want an easy way in. And the fact is, there isn't an easy way in,   Susy Flory  10:09 right? You gotta do your homework and prepare ahead of time. And then you may or may not be lucky. Yeah. But you can't be lucky if you don't prepare. And I know that you are so good at that, Mike, you're really great. You're an inspiration to me how you do the homework and prepare for everything that you do.   Michael Hingson  10:31 Well, thank you. You mentioned about easier, harder writing what I did when we did thunder dog, I had written lots of notes, I had created a lot of thought, on paper, and wrote a lot of the history. But that wasn't a book yet. And then when you said, Well, why, why aren't you writing your own book, and we, we started working toward that, and created a proposal that that was sellable. And of course, you having an agent, that was that was valuable, too. But the the point is that then when we started working on the book, all those notes came together. And what you did was you, you used your newspaper skills, if you will, to to coalesce that. And then we work together on on creating it, I'll never forget, when we were working with the folks at Thomas Nelson, and they came back and they said, The problem with your book right now is that you don't have good transitions between being in the World Trade Center and going back to previous places in your life. And it hit me I know how to do that. And I had never really thought about it before, but over a weekend created those, those transitions. And they love that. And of course, Curtis like that when they when they did their review of the book, but we worked well as a team. And I think there's there's value in that too. Because we we had a story to tell him, You adopted our story. And we made it a collective story, which I think helped.   Susy Flory  12:03 Yeah, because you can have a wonderful story and a lot of people do. But you have to make it entertaining, and enjoyable and readable and engaging and almost like addictive. You know, it's like the kind of think of it like the first date, you have a cover and a title and maybe a first page to connect with the reader. And then after that they better work. So we're not gonna stick around for long, if he's not excited, exciting to read,   Michael Hingson  12:32 right. I remember reading the first Harry Potter book, and it took a while to catch on. But we read it after lots of others had gone. I think actually it was the third book had already come out. By the time we discovered it. And Karen and I stuck with it. We read the audio version with Jim Dale. And for a while, we kept saying what is it that excites people about this? Because it just started out so slowly, but because there was such a big furor over it. We stuck with it. And it got better as it went along. But it didn't start out grabbing us with that first page.   Susy Flory  13:14 Yeah, it felt like that, too. But I think maybe children, you know, I mean, it was kind of geared towards what 6/7 eighth graders kind of that was maybe the primary audience at first. Yeah, like that's, yeah, yeah. And like, they might stick with something longer than a grown up reader would. And so in that case, I think we kind of followed what the kids were enjoying, and then kind of figured out, oh, this is good storytelling, it did kind of build, you know, it had the build. I agree with you on that.   Michael Hingson  13:46 And we have now read them all three times. You know, they're, they're great. They're great books to read. What about self publishing? How does that fit into the scheme of just the world of writing a book? And getting a book out? But also, can that help in terms of either that book or later books getting noticed by editors?   Susy Flory  14:14 Yeah, so self publishing, there are so many options. These days. It's kind of the wild west of publishing. And, you know, you have so many ways that you can be published, it's actually kind of confusing and overwhelming for people where it used to be more kind of straightforward, I think, with self publishing, if you have some sort of platform. So if you are out there speaking teaching, you have some sort of, you know, media channel a name for yourself, I think it's a really, really great option. If you don't have that you need to be prepared to do some advertising. And people have made a way for themselves self publishing that way as well. But it also works for someone who wants to publish something for friends and family. So I think a lot of this depends on your expectations. And in a world where physical bookstores, many of them have gone away, and much book shopping has gone online, it really is a viable option. But you really need to educate yourself and, you know, be involved at every step of the process, where when you're with a traditional legacy publisher, there are times you can kind of just let them take the lead on certain things.   Michael Hingson  15:31 Do you think that the traditional publishing world is going to go away with everything being online and so on?   Susy Flory  15:38 That is such a great debate, and it's been raging for years? Yeah. Yeah, it really changes like, you know, depending on what's going on in the world, and what's going on in the culture, the type of books that sell, or don't sell change. But right now, the publishing industry is doing just fine. And so I, I think there's always the danger. But there's something about physical books that people love and have loved for 1000s of years. So I don't see it completely going away, I do see it completely, you know, continuing to change and evolve.   Michael Hingson  16:16 I hope that libraries and bookstores, and the traditional publishing world doesn't go away. I think you're right. And I, I don't know how to really describe what it is to sit down with a book. You know, for me, it's in Braille, of course, but still, reading a book in Braille is not the same as listening to a recorded book, just like reading books with an electronic device, just apparently, isn't the same as sitting there and being able to turn the printed page, time after time, I hear people say that there's just nothing like reading that printed book.   Susy Flory  16:57 And, you know, people worry about television, and the streaming services, you know, Netflix, and all those things that offer so many options for entertainment. But there are still, I think, a very loyal and solid segment of the population that are word people. We love words, and you know, words in a book are they speak to us deeply? And so I think we're safe for now, Mike?   Michael Hingson  17:25 Yeah. Well, and and if you could get some of those people who watch TV, to sit down and read an engaging book, and if they truly get engaged, I wonder if that would, would change some of their views. Because what a book brings that television doesn't is the whole issue of imagination. I have, I have listened to radio shows that really evoke imagination. And I've even watched a few television shows that compel you to imagine, they don't spell everything out. And I find those to be most engaging a ball.   Susy Flory  18:10 I love that. Yeah, I'm actually in school right now, working on a master's, and my thesis that I'm working on touches on this idea that the reader collaborates and participates in the story. And so a book is going to be different. Every time a person picks up a book, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, it's going to be a little different, it's going to hit that person differently. Because they're participating. In that experience. It's like, as a writer, you're talking inside of their head and having a conversation with them. But you're not just dictating what they're gonna think and feel and imagine. So yeah, I love that. It's the process of, of engaging the imagination.   Michael Hingson  18:53 It's interesting to think about textbooks, I am still of the opinion, having read many textbooks in my life, especially physics textbooks, and so on. I think authors of textbooks are really missing it. By just making the textbooks about fact and theory and teaching what they teach and never putting stories in. I think they could do so much more if they both personalized it, and put some stories behind the teaching in the books that would make them more compelling for people to want to read.   Susy Flory  19:35 I agree. And when I used to read, I don't read magazines too often these days, but back in the day, I used to read a lot of women's magazine, infant fashion and culture and all the stuff and I would always read the story, story part of the article and just skip over the teaching and bullet points and facts parts so I totally agree with you.   Michael Hingson  19:57 Well, even magazines like Playboy, you You know, I don't know how many people know. But one of the best science fiction stories of all the fly was originally published in Playboy, and Playboy had stories no matter what else it was doing. And, and all the other different things that went into it. The creators of that magazine recognize the value of good stories and good writing to one of my favorite stories about September 11. Is that a week or so later, after the the events of September 11. And we got very visible in the media. We got a call, I got a call from America Media and of course, are the people who publish the National Enquirer and other magazines, and, and papers which tend to be weak on accurate content and more on sensationalism. And this person wanted to do an interview and they said it was going to be serious, and we talked on the phone, and they wanted to send someone out to take pictures. And I said, okay, and I went off and I told my wife, Karen, that this was happening. And of course, she immediately hit the roof, they're going to sensationalize it. How could you even agree to that? You know who they are. They're crazy. And, in fact, the guy called the day before he was going to come out to take the picture. And he said, I want to make sure that that I'm calling the right person. This is Michael Hinkson, who was in the elevator that fell from the 100th floor to the bottom and survived and, and he's the guy right. And Karen immediately said, nobody's coming out to take pictures. Well, what we found out later was that, in fact, there had been that rumor and they were investigating it. But American media still published our story as part of a journal that they put out around the World Trade Center. And it was actually one of the most journalistically best pieces, not just my story, but the whole magazine was one of the best pieces that that I had ever encountered. And Karen acknowledged it as well. They were very accurate. They were very thorough and told a great story. So you know, they can do it, sir, like the Harlem Globetrotters. Right? They have to be great basketball players to do what they do.   Susy Flory  22:24 Yeah, I know that. Sometimes they hire really good writers for their special editions, too. And they charge more for them. Because it's, you know, they're putting out a book basically. Right?   Michael Hingson  22:36 And they did a really great job with this one. And so, you know, people can do, what do publishers look for when someone is sending them a proposal and so on? What are they looking for?   Susy Flory  22:49 They look for three things, Mike, they look for a great idea. They look for great writing superior writing with a distinctive voice to it. And then they look for a platform, that you have some kind of connection with your readers, and that there are people out there who will buy what you have to fix. A lot of people have great ideas or they can write. But you know, to get someone to actually purchase a book. Yeah, to invest in it, there has to be that connection in some some way, some fashion or another. So those are the three things they look for, they will sometimes accept two out of three. So if you have an incredible story or book idea, and incredible writing gifts that you have refined, and with a distinct voice, sometimes you can squeak by without a platform, or, you know, one of the other things. So that's, that's kind of the scoop.   Michael Hingson  23:50 Well, I noticed that when we did thunder dog, the world had already changed to the point where they weren't doing as many book tours, and the publishers weren't doing as much marketing. They were also requiring that, that we as the people who were writing the book and proposing had to demonstrate what we were going to bring to marketing the book.   Susy Flory  24:14 That's right. Yeah, we had a lot of fun coming up with ideas and, you know, having meetings and things like that.   Michael Hingson  24:22 Well, and and we did and, you know, I think it actually did help a lot in not only getting visibility for the book, because we had, of course, you and I the biggest steak of all, we were the the authors, the creators of the book, but that also it gave us an insight into the world and the things that the publishers do and wanted to do, but they did their part as well. But today it is true that an author has to be ready to be able to to help sell the book   Susy Flory  25:00 Absolutely, you kind of become almost like your own little multimedia Corporation. But you know, on a very small scale, but you have to get the word out. And that doesn't mean just going on Facebook and saying buy my book, you have to look at where people are hanging out and what they like to read and do. You need to be out there, being excited about your book, which is easy to do, if you have written something that you know, is very meaningful that you care about deep. Lee, I always had a great time talking about thunder dogs. I was out there talking about it. You were talking about it 10 times more and more effectively. But we did we just had a good time sharing the story sharing the things that you have learned and wanted to share in the book.   Michael Hingson  25:50 And still do, by the way.   Susy Flory  25:54 That's right. And it's a story that never gets old Mike.   Michael Hingson  25:58 No, it doesn't get old it is it's gonna be there. It's fun to go out on on the road still and do speeches and travel and tell my story and talk about teamwork and trust and all sorts of things. And one of the things that I love to do somewhere in the course of of every talk that I give is to to encourage people to buy the book and then I have well nowadays Alamo set up and I say look, Alamo just told me that we're running low on kibbles. And so we poor starving off and we need you guys to buy books because Elmo says he's got to be able to eat tomorrow.   Susy Flory  26:30 Which is the trip which, by the way, right? Writers work hard for their kibble.   Michael Hingson  26:36 That's right. And their dogs and their dogs expected piece of the action.   Susy Flory  26:42 Right? Yeah, that was such a fun summer Mike hanging out at your house with Roselle and Africa. And Fantasia, you had three big beautiful labs that would be kind of wrestling at our feet as we talk. Yeah, it was a wonderful summer.   Michael Hingson  26:59 Yeah, it was. And we we, we lost well, Africa, retired in 2018. And then Fantasia passed away the next year. So we are now one dog family. But we also have a cat. So we we do keep busy with all of those. So tell me what, what is the difference between a memoir and a biography or an autobiography?   Susy Flory  27:27 Yeah, I think one thing to talk about it with that question. First is to say that there are kind of two categories of memoir, there are memoirs by big celebrities. So this might be a person like Michelle Obama, or Bill Gates or something like that. They can write whatever they want to write. So they may call it a memoir, more often, it's an autobiography. And they tell you the whole story of their life. And it's like 500 pages, you know, it's like this big huge brick of a book. But they're in a different category. They're just a household name. For most of us, myself included, people don't know us, as well. And so we write, we try to write an exciting story. So a memoir is making a story of your life. It's a true story. But you're doing some storytelling, and you have a beginning, middle and an end, you have an exciting moment that you're building to, and a lot of times that focuses on a season of your life. So thunder dog, focused on your 911 story. And then, you know, brought in things from your life as part of the book. And so a memoir is, is more focused than an autobiography. It's not a history, it's not a comprehensive history of your life.   Michael Hingson  28:46 Yeah, and I've read some pretty boring autobiographies. And there again, it goes back to what I said earlier. My My theory is that, putting some stories in help, where we're preparing, as you know, and have now submitted a proposal for a book. Originally, we were talking about calling it blinded by fear. But Carrie and I are, are calling it now a guide dogs Guide to Being brave. And it's about fear, and it's about overcoming fear. And it's about how, when you're confronted with an unexpected life change, you are often so fearful that you become blinded to making good choices. You don't learn how to use that fear in a positive and strong way. But one of the things that that I believe is important in writing that book is is to include stories to illustrate points along the way, because I think that makes any book more interesting.   Susy Flory  29:47 Yeah, I find that stories stick with me. And so you know, if I go to church and the preacher is preaching this amazing 10 points sermon, I'm not going to remember the points Unless they're stories involved, so I'll walk out and remember the stories. But remember the point?   Michael Hingson  30:06 Well, and the stories may be able to take you back to the points but but still, the stories are what sticks with you, because they're personal, you can you get drawn into the stories, because you can make them personal and kind of make them your own and, and you can feel what's going on in the story.   Susy Flory  30:27 Yeah, I love that. And that's, that was so important with your story, because most people are never going to have the set of experiences that you had on 911. They just aren't, you know, that was a unique event. But by telling your stories, and opening up your life in your world, you know, your hopes, dreams, fears, all of that people can relate to that. And that's what made your story. So I think a gauge engaging makes it so engaging and relatable.   Michael Hingson  31:01 So going back to memoirs, you created a community called educational memoir, right? It's called Everything, everything memoir, is that to teach people to write memoirs, or   Susy Flory  31:13 Yeah, and it's not it's, it was not never aimed at professional writers, although some writers are part of the community. But any ordinary person who wants to write their story, and so you probably have people ask you for advice with writing and publishing. And I've had that a lot. And at some point, you can't help everyone. You can't give every person individual person, you can't go to coffee with them, and tell them what to do, and help them and so I created this educational community. And it's on Facebook, we have a private group. And then I'm also doing a one year coaching group where people can write their memoir in a year with some coaching and help and feedback. And so, so many people want to write their stories, and they just don't know how to do it, or they write something that's difficult to read, that's not engaging. So my my mission and goal is to help people write a good, readable, interesting them more.   Michael Hingson  32:14 Well, and you said at the beginning, that most everyone has a story to tell. And I think that's absolutely true. You know, I'm working, as you know, with accessibility, so we we deal with making websites more accessible. And the whole story is about the fact that only 2% of websites today are usable, and most are not, they're not fully inclusive. And I'm looking forward to the time when someone will really write the story, it's, it's still new, because there's so much of it that's being written in history, if you will, but I'm looking forward to the time that we can write the story of accessiBe in the story of how the Internet becomes more inclusive. And there. And already, there are just so many incredible tales to tell, about website access things that that people have done. Things that people have learned along the way that have helped them create more inclusive environments in their own world and how making a website inclusive is made other parts of a company inclusive, and so on. And it'll be a fun story to tell at some point. It's kind of one of those things that's evolving today.   Susy Flory  33:30 It'll be nice when it's history, right? Rather than a current problem.   Michael Hingson  33:34 Yeah, well, and in a current event, but but it will happen and that's what's going to be a lot of fun. But but people do have stories and it would be nice if more people would learn how to articulate and tell their stories. I think that too many people are are losing the the whole idea and the whole ability of using words to create images that people can read and see. So they're, they're losing this ability to write which is extremely unfortunate.   Susy Flory  34:10 Yeah, they may feel like I did once upon a time that there are these amazing books and stories out there, but that they can't do that themselves. And I feel like with some help, and some practical, you know, solutions and templates that people can what,   Michael Hingson  34:28 what about fiction as opposed to nonfiction in terms of writing skills and so on, because people like we mentioned Harry Potter what a creative thing which is just totally out of imagination. Yeah,   Susy Flory  34:43 when one big way to learn if better, if you should aim at fiction or nonfiction if you're, you know, want to write a book is what do you enjoy reading? And for me, I enjoy reading nonfiction. I love true stories big true kind of adventure. citing stories. And so that's what I gravitate to when I go into a bookstore or library. That's where I'm heading. And I read fiction sometimes, but not not heavily. And so that's one good way to figure out what you should be writing. And fiction. People are interesting novelists, they have stories inside of their heads. And so they walk around the story. And these characters and these, you know, events, and eventually they have to write it down. It's, it's like they're always incubating these stories.   Michael Hingson  35:33 Yeah. And you and I both have our favorite authors. I'm still working on convincing you that Mark Twain is the best, but you know, we'll get there.   Susy Flory  35:43 I'm not saying I don't like   Michael Hingson  35:48 who's your favorite author?   Susy Flory  35:50 Oh, goodness. That's such a great question. We'll do fiction, fiction fiction fiction. Right now I'm enjoying reading Barbara Kingsolver. So she wrote, she's written several things. But she's a great storyteller. And Ann Patchett. I love me and Patchett, who's a southern novelist, who kind of writes his big epic novels, about families that are all interconnected and have secrets and things like that. So those are probably my two favorites.   Michael Hingson  36:22 We, we do a lot of fiction reading at home here, because we play audio books, and can listen to them while doing other things. That's really hard to do with a nonfiction book, you do have to concentrate differently and more on nonfiction.   36:39 I think so. Although memoir can read it, you know, it depends on the memoir, the famous ones, you know, the famous celebrity memoirs, no, but a really well, that memoir can almost be like a novel, it's very similar to how a novel, you know, unfolds. And so those can be super engaging, that they have to be well written.   Michael Hingson  37:02 It's, it's all about the story, right?   Susy Flory  37:06 Yeah. And engaging, the reader could have no ageing   Michael Hingson  37:09 the reader. And yeah, that's, that's, again, easier to do. Both Karen and I find sometimes that we're reading, and suddenly, we go, how did how did they get there? Because our mind went off in a different direction, you know, the book just took us somewhere. And we just leaped off into a theme, and then we come back, and they're in a different place now.   Susy Flory  37:36 Yeah, there has to be a logic, you know, there has to be planning that's happened behind the scenes that maybe you aren't aware of as a reader, but it does all have to fit together kind of like the structure of a house, the framing of the house.   Michael Hingson  37:49 Well, in the case of audio books, also, the other part of it is that the reader of the book, the person reading the book, and recording, it, has something to do with it. I've been spoiled by some really good readers of talking books over the years for blind people, and find that there are some people who professionally are recording books for everyone today who are good, but I also find that sometimes there aren't good readers, or that for some reason, we don't react well to them. And that diminishes the book a great deal. Unfortunately. They may very well be good books, but still   Susy Flory  38:29 some audio do you call them a performer or a narrator? What's an audio Column A   Michael Hingson  38:34 reader but you know, people reader former some people call them narrators.   Susy Flory  38:38 Yes. And some are like an actor's Yeah, some are like, Yeah, they just make it come alive, and some are very dead. So I totally get that.   Michael Hingson  38:47 Some are actors. I remember years ago as a child reading, kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson and Roddy McDowell read it. The actor, and there have been others. My favorite science fiction book of all times, the Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein was read by Robert Donnelly, who was primarily a radio actor, but was perfect for this book. And, and I, I've read other books by actors who've just been very good. And they put voices in the books and they they use different voices for different characters, and they pull it off really well.   Susy Flory  39:29 Yeah, I have a book coming out in February that's set in Ireland and I'm hoping for the audio book that they have somebody who can, you know, an Irish person or somebody who can have a really good Irish accent, because I just listened to have you ever listened to Angela's Ashes on audiobook?   Michael Hingson  39:47 A while ago?   Susy Flory  39:48 Yes. Yeah. Frank McCourt. He bred it. Oh, yeah. His voice. He was so alive. He did voices and he would also sing Irish songs as part of the and you wouldn't Totally missed that if you were reading it on paper.   Michael Hingson  40:03 Yeah. Yeah. Again, some people can bring, bring a book to life and sometimes the author is the best one to do that. Tell us about the book in February.   Susy Flory  40:15 Yeah, this is a book I've been working on for a couple of years. It's called sanctuary. And it's about a real life donkey whisper in Ireland. The man named Patrick Barrett and he grew up his father started Ireland's Donkey Sanctuary. So they've rescued 1000s of donkeys over the years, because the problem is donkeys can live 50 to 60 years. They're sort of like parrots, and people will grow old or their life conditions will change. And this poor donkey is just kind of left to fend for itself. And it happens all the time, they'll find donkeys by the roadside that are starving. And so he grew up in this atmosphere. And as he grew up, he ran into different kinds of troubles and struggles. And it ended up that his father's Donkey Sanctuary actually rescued him. And so it's small town Ireland, small village Ireland with the castle, you know, on the main street and donkeys and Irish family and redemption.   Michael Hingson  41:20 It was a great book to read. I remember you asked me to read it and write the foreword in the endorsement for it. And   Susy Flory  41:28 that's right. Yeah, your forum forward is right up front there.   Michael Hingson  41:32 The only thing I never did see in the book was a leprechaun. So I still teach about that.   Susy Flory  41:38 We made a rule now leprechauns in the book are on the cover.   Michael Hingson  41:41 They might get you in trouble you know, those leprechauns they know these things.   Susy Flory  41:46 There are fairies of their I don't know if they're leprechauns. But there's a strong belief in fairies and Banshee as well. So yeah, Irish about to talk about imagination. The Irish have strong literary and beautiful imagination really   Michael Hingson  42:03 don't want to run into a banshee, though.   Susy Flory  42:04 Do you don't know.   Michael Hingson  42:08 I've seen Darby. Oh, Gil, I know about these things.   Susy Flory  42:13 Apparently, they make a really strange noise at night and you want to stay inside when you hear   Michael Hingson  42:17 that? You don't, I don't really want to come out where they are. Well, so that book is coming out in February. And I'm really looking forward to to seeing it out. And do you have any say? Or do you have any ability to to provide input into who will read it? If it gets on to Audible or in a recorded form?   Susy Flory  42:38 No. So far, I have not had that. And I don't think Patrick wants to read it himself. He's super busy. It's lots of kids and a busy life. So I think they, you know, will choose the best person that they can.   Michael Hingson  42:56 I would hope they would do an interview with him though. I mean, he is very interesting person just having read the book, and I would hope that there'd be an opportunity to to hear his voice somehow.   Susy Flory  43:08 Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah. And he can do voices himself, you know, he can. The whole one of the reasons he's called the donkey whispers he can talk to donkeys in their own language, the way that they talk. They have very extensive vocabulary. And he can also imitate people as well. So he's very good at that. He has that year for that.   Michael Hingson  43:31 That will be exciting to to have come out. Now you also have another book that has been made into a movie that's coming out next year, right?   Susy Flory  43:40 Yes. And you know, I said sanctuary was coming out in February. I was wrong. It's actually coming out St. Patrick's Day in March. Oh,   Michael Hingson  43:48 my goodness. Good day for it to come out.   Susy Flory  43:52 But that same week, it's very odd net. This was not planned, but a book that I did a few years ago called The Unbreakable boy. It's a father son story about a boy with brittle bone disease and autism. That was made into a movie recently, it's being released by Lionsgate studios. And Zachary Levi and Patricia Heaton are starring and it comes out the exact same week as sanctuary. So it's a very strange and unusual week in my world.   Michael Hingson  44:24 Well, double double opportunity.   Susy Flory  44:29 That's right, we're gonna try to do we have plans to do a movie premiere. Up in the San Francisco Bay area, we're renting out a small theater, a single screen theater, so I'm hoping that will all come to fruition and we'll have some fun with a little we're gonna have some red carpet and the whole thing. Oh, cool. Did you know about red carpets? You've been on red Park? Yes.   Michael Hingson  44:53 Yeah. Well, here's a question. How has the pandemic of affected reading and books do you think and writing for that matter?   Susy Flory  45:05 I know children's books and why a young adult books have been selling like crazy, you know, with kids at home, and homeschooling and things like that. I do know, fiction and novels. Novels are fiction, but fiction is much stronger right now. People want entertainment and escape. Escape. Yeah. So yeah, they don't necessarily want to read heavy, you know, dark, difficult, you know, material challenging material, they want to, they want to, they want to escape, they want to move to someplace like Ireland or, you know, something like that. So fiction's doing law?   Michael Hingson  45:44 Well, it's, it's, um, it's very understandable. I mean, there's so many heavy things that we're dealing with the things that have happened over the past two years. And we're just slammed with the media, or by the media with all of the stuff that you want to escape. We've stayed home. And, and not done any travel, I did my first trip to speak in well, in May of this year, and that was the first one since March of last year. And traveling has been significantly less. But you know, staying at home has been a lot more bearable when we read books together. And so it also Karen and I are sharing it, but reading and and I've met as I said before, a fair amount of fiction helps just escape and get away from all this stuff that we're sick and tired of seeing on television and hearing.   Susy Flory  46:41 Yeah, I agree. I've been reading a lot and watching a lot as well, watching things like the Great British baking show. So yes, Escape has been important. We want that to be the beautiful thing about stories. They do sweep you away.   Michael Hingson  46:57 We watched the holiday bake off this last Sunday. Learn some new recipes. I don't know whether we'll try them. But we're trying to keep the calorie count down too. That's the unfortunate thing about the Bake Off.   Susy Flory  47:14 So true. That's been a hard thing for me during the pandemic because I love chocolate. Well, yeah. So yeah, we I have a little country grocery store that I go to if you're in Volcano, and they have See's Candy, right by the cash register. It is a big, it's been a big temptation, temptation, have a box of chocolate and a good black and sit there and enjoy it.   Michael Hingson  47:40 Well, I must admit, as I've said many times over the past year Instacart and Grub Hub are our friends. And it's very convenient that we can get some things like now that Christmas is here, peppermint bark from Costco, and, and other things. So yeah, that's it's always good to have a little chocolate around. Every time we we do have to go deal with Kaiser or a doctor or anything like that. I keep saying when you're writing prescriptions, please put that 10 pound box a season. Nobody's done that yet. It's very disappointing.   Susy Flory  48:17 Yeah, they should make a deal with fees. I think that could work out.   Michael Hingson  48:21 I think so I don't quite see the problem. I don't either. Well, in another thing. I know that it's very important for authors to have websites and have things up on the internet. That's, of course, a great way not only to advertise, but to establish personal relationships with people. And of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't explore how we might help authors do a better job of making their websites accessible so that people with various disabilities who might not be able to access part of their sites, get the access that everyone else has. Probably a lot of author websites are not overly complex websites, they're, they're not. They will have pictures and so on. But they're not necessarily overly complex. But it would be great to explore ways to work with the author world, to help them make their websites more accessible.   Susy Flory  49:23 Yeah, and kind of the probably that one of the most influential organizations as the author's skill. So I think, you know, if they can jump in and cooperate and partner with you, I think it would be a huge victory.   Michael Hingson  49:41 Well, you and I have talked about that before and we never did really follow through much but there's been a lot going on. So I'd love to, to get any help you can and reaching some of the folks that are but also if any authors are listening. As we've talked about on these podcasts, accessiBe helps makes websites a lot more accessible and it's not an expensive process. And I mean, it's really not an expensive process. So people ought to go to accessiBe.com and check it out. And also they can go to our website audit tool called ACE which you can get to it accessiBe.com, or just go to ace.accessiBe.com and plug in your website address and see how accessible it is and and learn about the things that you need to do to make it more accessible and usable. Because the reality is that over 20% of people in the world have a disability. And if you make your website accessible to those people, you can get up to 20% more business. And I mean, who could argue with doing that?   Susy Flory  50:48 I love that. Yeah, as writers, we want to speak and write and communicate and tell our stories to everyone. And no one should be excluded from that.   Michael Hingson  51:01 It's not that magical or hard to do. And so, you know, I hope that that it will happen more and more. And I know authors tend to really, truly be starving, don't have a lot of income, but accessiBe and is a way to do it. But we could certainly explore working with the author skilled, and you're right, that is something that we should do. So   Susy Flory  51:25 and also as published authors who have if you're a traditionally published author, or self published, you go through publishing companies who offer those services. It's something that we can recruit request for by publishers.   Michael Hingson  51:40 Good point that, that they also deal with access and make it accessible right from the outset, we had to do some of that, as I recall, with Thomas Nelson, there were some things that weren't accessible, but they fixed it.   Susy Flory  51:53 That's right. That's right.   Michael Hingson  51:56 And it is one of the things that as we're dealing with a guide dogs Guide to Being brave, however, that goes, access has to be a part of it. We've been working toward making thunder dog, a movie, although that's moving very slowly, the pandemic hasn't helped. But again, as that happens, it will need to have an audio track and be accessible so that it'll have to be described. So blind people can have access to it, much less everything else that goes along with it. So it will be fun to see how it goes. But you know, the reality is access is just something that tends not to be included in the conversation. We need to figure out ways to to get it more visible and get more people making sure that they provide inclusion. It's just not that expensive and hard to do.   Susy Flory  52:51 Yeah, I love that you're advocating in this area mica that you're persistent and consistent with it.   Michael Hingson  52:58 We need to get some of those Irish ferries to help us.   Susy Flory  53:01 That's right.   Michael Hingson  53:02 They have influence either out of their friends to leprechauns who stay in hiding, but they have to have   Susy Flory  53:08 and some of the stubbornness of the donkeys. You know, donkeys are stubborn, because they're smart. And they are opinionated. And so they come off as stubborn.   Michael Hingson  53:19 Oh, I know that if I ever get to Ireland, I do want to go be Patrick. I look forward to that. And you know, the other thing is, if people don't deal with access, we could always point out that we we probably can find people who can help us get a deal with a banshee you know, to get them to make their sites accessible.   Susy Flory  53:39 That's right, we'll set the Banshees on Yeah,   Michael Hingson  53:41 we'll set the Banshees on works for me. I really want to thank you for for being here and being a part of unstoppable mindset. But just, we haven't had a chance to chat for a while and the pandemic has has been for me, it's actually kept me pretty busy just with with things going on. And so I can't complain about that. But I think also again, it comes back to how you approach it. And you know, so this is just another adventure in a chapter in life, too.   Susy Flory  54:18 That's right, so fun to visit with another storyteller Mike and I love that you are telling your story of this new venue now with your podcast.   Michael Hingson  54:28 It's a lot of fun. Well invite people to come and listen. And of course, we hope that people will will give us good five star ratings. And if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest, I'd love to chat with people and and bring them on. So we really love to to deal with this unstoppable thing and I just realized there's something else that we should talk about in your life, because you've been confronted by a couple of major life changes like with The whole breast cancer concept and so on that have suddenly thrown things in your way. But you you motored through   Susy Flory  55:07 them. That's right, I had breast cancer just before you and I started working together. And so I was still recovering from it, because it takes a while, you know, with surgeries and treatment and medication and all the things. And I decided that I didn't have time to wait anymore, or to be afraid, or, you know, to let things hold me back. And so, I'm not saying I became unstoppable. But I did feel like I went into turbo, after I recovered from breast cancer, and I literally did think I was gonna die. My dad had died in his 40s of cancer. And so I thought that might be my path. And so when I survived, I decided to move forward and, you know, have courage. And I think that's probably what led to me writing you that email that one day.   Michael Hingson  56:10 Well, the the issue isn't unstoppable. But unstoppable mindset, it still is, it's all about how you choose to approach things, whoever you are. And the bottom line is that mostly, we have control over a lot of things in our lives. And there are things that we don't have control over. But if you worry about things you can't control, you'll go off on strange paths, if you focus on what you can, and let the rest take care of itself. Most always, you're better off for it.   Susy Flory  56:44 That's right. i My mindset became my unstoppable mindset became for me the thought or the idea of why not, you know, what do I have to lose? Why not try? And so I became more comfortable with the idea of having some failures, which is going to happen whenever you try something new. But, you know, just the idea of why not, why not try.   Michael Hingson  57:11 But also love the idea that the whole point behind a failure is not that it's a failure. It's a it's an opportunity to learn and move forward to.   57:21 And it's normal. It's not fun. Yeah, some amount of failure is normal in this life. And once you realize that, that that's just part of it. And maybe you had to get that out of the way before you can move forward.   Michael Hingson  57:34 Right? Which gets back to mindset, which is cool. Well, again, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here. You got lots going on and a book, I'm sure books to write what's the next project   Susy Flory  57:51 I This one's kind of funny. It's called The Ultimate Bible nerd and I bought the format's Bible Dictionary, it's in six volumes. So if you kind of picture your whole desk being taken up by these giant bar, and I'm going to read through it, it's 7 million words. I'm going to read through 7 million words the year and write about it so we will see what comes out with that. I'm not quite sure yet.   Michael Hingson  58:20 Make it a novel.   Susy Flory  58:24 It's not going to be 7 million words I'll tell you about.   Michael Hingson  58:27 That is a little bit long to deal with. But I bet that whatever comes out is going to be fascinating and worth reading. I'm gonna have to go off and look up fear not the VINCI   Susy Flory  58:44 it's out of print, but I think there's a few copies floating around   Michael Hingson  58:51 I'm assuming it wasn't an audio book.   Susy Flory  58:54 I think this was before audio books were routine. Yeah, and yeah, so it was not   Michael Hingson  59:04 have to look anyway. You never know. Well, thanks again for be here. And it was good talking with you. And I want to thank everyone for listening. And again, if you have any questions you want to reach out Susie how can people reach out and find you?   Susy Flory  59:25 My website is SusyFlory.com and my name is spelled S U S Y F L O R Y or you can find me on Facebook at everything memoir.   Michael Hingson  59:39 Cool. And as always, if you have questions, comments, thoughts, please feel free to reach out to me Michael Hinkson web address to reach out to is MichaelHi@accessiBe.com M I C H A E L H I @ A C C E S S I B E dot com. Please go to Michael hingson.com/podcast. To learn more about the podcast. If you haven't listened to us before, we hope that you'll give us a five star rating in whatever podcast host you are using. If you know anyone who might be a good guest, or if you'd like to talk about coming on the podcast and chatting with us, please reach out. We'd love to hear from you. And you can, you can rest assured that I will respond. So, thank you very much for listening to unstoppable mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. Thanks for listening.   Michael Hingson  1:00:48 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

After the ApocalypseA pandemic survival storySeason One, Episode Eighteen - “The Shot” (Narrator)What runs through the mind of a dog? Not just a dog, but a soldier and a veteran.FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF BILL THE DOG (think of him as a soldier grunt. He speaks simply and mostly in the present tense, but with urgency:Now. It is quiet. I am alert. My pack is safe. I see them on the roof of the building. The large cat waits below. The pack is my duty. I protect the pack. I fight and die for the pack. I hold here out of reach of the cat, waiting. It is hot. I am thirsty and hungry. But I will wait. Until my new man says otherwise. The new man commands less than my soldier. The new man gives commands. But the woman acts like pack leader.There is only now. There is only the mission. I can fight. I can harass. I can run. But I must protect the pack. ...Outro S1 E18 – The ShotHello my survivor friends. How's the apocalypse going? The is Chris your host fro this apocalyptic after-party. Thank you for showing up and joining the old man and KJ for an adventure! https://shows.acast.com/after-the-apocalypseI really liked Robert's read of this one. I think he got the dialogue just right. I had written these two chapters about the animal farm in 2020 during the height of the pandemic while I was experimenting with this universe to see if it merited the effort of my attention. I wrote it originally as a two-parter with the cliff-hanger. This time around I tried to cram it into 1 episode but it would not be crammed so we left the original 2-parter structure with the cliff hanger and fleshed out the dialogue a bit. I think it works. We are 2 episodes away from wrapping up season 1. Like I said before, we are going to take a break after episode 20 and turn the first season into a paperback, ebook and audio book. The mechanics of this are not unfamiliar to me. I have done it before, but not for a couple years. I contracted a starving artist to work on a cover for me and another to edit it back into book form. The difference between writing for an audio read and a regular read is minor but I think it's worth the help. When I write for audio I break up the paragraphs into smaller chunks and phrases to reinforce the cadence. So I'm having a nice lady from Jamaica go through and pull some of those back together for readability. Also she'll delete all the audio instruction notes, look for typos and blatant grammar issues, like dangling participles. I would love to have any of you who are readers support the book launch if you're game. I could use typo hunters. You get a pre-release of the book. Come over and join the FaceBook group for After the Apocalypse and join the team. I'll apologize for making you work hard, but There are a bunch of Facebook groups and pages called After the Apocalypse, mine is https://www.facebook.com/groups/oldmanapocalypse/Another thing I'll be recruiting for is a book launch team. In couple months when all this comes together I'll need help in, for lack of a better word, marketing.  Again, FaceBook, After the apocalypse. Since we last talked I've been reading a Robert Heinlein, retrospective called Requiem, which if you are interested you can procure on Thriftbooks for $5.29. It a collection of “unreleased” stories and other stuff. One of the stories is a novella he wrote in 1950 called Destination Moon.  You may know him from his more famous works, Stranger in a Strange Land, Time Enough for Love, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. This novella or short story depending on your appetite is followed by piece, penned by Heinlein about the making of a movie from the story.  So I, curious as I am for the literary obscura, of course went out and hunted down the movie, which you can watch on Youtube. It's interesting because it is such a time capsule, (pun intended), of a sort of religion of hard science that came out of American engineering culture in this post world-war 2 time. This golden age of science fiction. Heinlein was involved in the movie production and they worked really hard to make sure that the science of it made sense. That the gravity and the exit velocities and all the other stuff actually made sense. It ends up as almost a documentary of sorts. These guys were one of the big influences in turning the American cultural knobs towards space. Cheerleading, if you will, that going to the moon was not fantasy, not fiction, but science. And if the incompetent bureaucratic government would just get out of the way of industrialists and engineers it be done. And it could be done before the Russians did it! But, it's a great example of what the sci-fi of the time was all about. They loved hard science. They thought every problem could be solved by smart, brave, independent minded engineers. It was this vision of reimagining the world as a fact-based, science-based libertarianism. Heinlein is famous for the following quote: “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” ― Robert A. HeinleinAnd, yes, if all this sounds sort of pseudo religious, religions were founded based on this scientific-libertarianism. These guys believed that the soft-sciences of psychiatry and religion could be fed into the logically precise meat grinder of science, and that what came out the other end would be free of all the emotional clap-trap of society. I bet you've all heard of Dianetics which grew out of this process by golden age sci-fi writer L. Ron Hubbard. But, you probably haven't heard of the Church of All Worlds a neopagan religion that was founded in California (of course, because all the crazy head for the coasts) based on the writings of Robert Heinlein. So, I guess the moral here is be careful what you imagine, be careful what you write, be careful what you believe because sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. These golden age writers, by pouring their beliefs and realism into their writings made them compelling, more than stories for boys, and, quite literally, changed the world. Sorry for the long screed, but I find it all very interesting and thought you might too. Remember to make a donation at the Patreon Group, I am reading extra credit stories into audio for members there. Join the Facebook group and volunteer to be a typo hunter or a member of the book launch team. Maybe you and I can change the world. But above all else, put one foot in front of the other, confront each morning with joy and Keep Surviving.  Get bonus content on Patreon See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

The Unsafe Space Book Club discusses this month's book: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein. Links Referenced in the Show: Thanks for Watching! The best way to follow Unsafe Space, no matter which platforms ban us, is to visit: https://unsafespace.com While we're still allowed on YouTube, please don't forget to verify that you're subscribed, and to like and share this episode. You can find us there at: https://unsafespace.com/channel For episode clips, visit: https://unsafespace.com/clips Also, come join our community of dangerous thinkers at the following social media sites...at least until we get banned: Twitter: @unsafespace Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsafepage Instagram: @_unsafespace Gab: @unsafe Minds: @unsafe Parler: @unsafespace Locals: unsafespace.locals.com MeWe: https://mewe.com/p/unsafespace Telegram Chat: https://t.me/joinchat/H4OUclXTz4xwF9EapZekPg To help us continue operating, please visit: https://unsafespace.com/donate Don't forget to pick up some Unsafe Space merch while you're there!