Podcast appearances and mentions of Amy Edmondson

Zach Mercurio reveals the hidden epidemic that's plaguing the workplace—and what we can do about it.— YOU'LL LEARN — 1) The root of disengagement and quiet quitting2) How to help others feel valued in just 30 seconds3) The questions that help people feel seenSubscribe or visit AwesomeAtYourJob.com/ep1083 for clickable versions of the links below. — ABOUT GINO — Zach Mercurio is a researcher, leadership development facilitator, and speaker specializing in purposeful leadership, mattering, and meaningful work. He advises leaders in organizations worldwide on practices for building cultures that promote well-being, motivation, and high performance. Mercurio holds a PhD in organizational learning, performance, and change and serves as one of Simon Sinek's Optimist Instructors, teaching a top-rated course on creating mattering at work. His previous book is The Invisible Leader.• Book: The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance• Study: “The Lived Experience of Meaningful Work in a Stigmatized Occupation: A Descriptive Phenomenological Inquiry”• LinkedIn: Zach Mercurio• Website: ZachMercurio.com— RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW — • Study: “Human Workplace Index: The Price of Invisibility” from Workhuman• Study: “Age, Perceptions of Mattering, and Allostatic Load” by John Taylor, Michael J. McFarland, and Dawn C. Carr• Study: “Undervaluing Gratitude: Expressers Misunderstand the Consequences of Showing Appreciation” by Amit Kumar and Nicholas Epley• Study: “It's not all about me: motivating hand hygiene among health care professionals by focusing on patients” by Adam Grant and David A. Hofmann• Book: Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl• Past episode: 500: Building Unshakeable Self-Esteem and Confidence with Victor Cheng• Past episode: 972: Amy Edmondson on How to Fail Well— THANK YOU SPONSORS! — • Strawberry.me. Claim your $50 credit and build momentum in your career with Strawberry.me/Awesome• Plaud.ai. Use the code AWESOME and get a discount on your order• LinkedIn Jobs. Post your job for free at linkedin.com/beawesome• Quince. Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your order with Quince.com/AwesomeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

“Manager and leader”? What's the difference. During my conversation this time with Scott Hanton, our guest, we will discuss this very point along with many other fascinating and interesting subjects. As Scott tells us at the beginning of this episode he grew up asking “why” about most anything you can think of. He always was a “why” asker. As he tells it, unlike many children who grow out of the phase of asking “why” he did not. He still asks “why” to this very day.   At the age of 13 Scott decided that he wanted to be a chemist. He tells us how this decision came about and why he has always stayed with it. Scott received his bachelor's degree in Chemistry from Michigan State and his PHD from the University of Wisconsin. Again, why he changed schools for his PHD work is an interesting story. As you will see, Scott tells stories in a unique and quite articulate way.   After his university days were over Scott went to work, yes as a chemist. He tells us about this and how after 20 years with one company how and why he moved to another company and somewhat out of constant lab work into some of the management, business and leadership side of a second company. He stayed there for ten years and was laid off during the pandemic. Scott then found employment as the editorial director of Lab Management Magazine where he got to bring his love of teaching to the forefront of his work.   My hour with Scott gives us all many insights into management, leadership and how to combine the two to create a strong teaming environment. I believe you will find Scott's thoughts extremely poignant and helpful in everything that you do.     About the Guest:   Scott Hanton is the Editorial Director of Lab Manager. He spent 30 years as a research chemist, lab manager, and business leader at Air Products and Intertek. Scott thrives on the challenges of problem-solving. He enjoys research, investigation, and collaboration. Scott is a people-centric, servant leader. He is motivated by developing environments where people can grow and succeed, and crafting roles for people that take advantage of their strengths.   Scott earned a BS in chemistry from Michigan State University and a PhD in physical chemistry from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is an active member of the American Chemical Society (ACS), the American Society of Mass Spectrometry (ASMS), and the Association of Lab Managers (ALMA). As a scientist Scott values curiosity, innovation, progress, and delivery of results. Scott has always been motivated by questions beginning with why. Studying physical chemistry in graduate school offered the opportunity to hone answers to these questions. As a professional scientist, Scott worked in analytical chemistry specializing in MALDI mass spectrometry and polymer characterization.   At Scott married his high school sweetheart, and they have one son. Scott is motivated by excellence, happiness, and kindness. He most enjoys helping people and solving problems. Away from work, Scott enjoys working outside in the yard, playing strategy games, and participating in different discussion groups.   Scott values having a growth mindset and is a life-long learner. He strives to learn something new everyday and from everyone. One of the great parts of being a trained research scientist is that failure really isn't part of his vocabulary. He experiments and either experiences success or learns something new. He values both individual and organizational learning.   Scott's current role at Lab Manager encompasses three major responsibilities: ·      Writing articles and giving presentations to share his experience with lab managers. ·      Driving the creation and growth of the Lab Manager Academy (https://labmanageracademy.com/) that currently contains three certificate programs: lab management, lab safety management, and lab quality management. ·      Helping people through his knowledge of science, scientists, management, and leadership. He is very happy sharing the accumulated wisdom of his experiences as a researcher, lab supervisor, and lab manager. Each article posted on Lab Manager addresses a decision that a lab manager needs to make. Lab management is full of decision-making, so helping people make better, faster, more complete decisions is very satisfying. Ways to connect with Scott:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hanton/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet, and mostly we get to deal with the unexpected, as opposed to inclusion or diversity. But that's okay, because unexpected is what makes life fun, and our guest today, Scott Hanton, will definitely be able to talk about that. Scott has been a research chemist. He comes from the chemistry world, so he and I in the past have compared notes, because, of course, I come from the physics world, and I love to tell people that the most important thing I learned about physics was that, unlike Doc Brown, although I do know how to build a bomb, unlike Doc Brown from Back to the Future, I'm not dumb enough to try to go steal fissionable material from a terrorist group to build the bomb. So, you know, I suppose that's a value, value lesson somewhere. But anyway, I am really glad that you're all here with us today, and we have lots to talk about. Scott, as I said, was in chemistry and research chemist, and now is the editorial supervisor and other things for a magazine called lab manager, and we will talk about that as well. So Scott, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad   Scott Hanton ** 02:38 you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 Well, I think it'll be a lot of fun, and looking forward to it. Now, you're in Michigan, right?   Scott Hanton ** 02:48 That's right. I live in South Lyon, Michigan,   Michael Hingson ** 02:51 ah, what's the weather back there today?   Scott Hanton ** 02:55 It's probably about 55 degrees and cloudy   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 here today. Well, it's still fairly sunny here, and we're actually, according to my iPhone, at 71 so it was up around 80 earlier in the week, but weather changes are still going to bring some cold for a while   Scott Hanton ** 03:15 in here in Michigan, I visited a customer earlier this week, and I drove by about 1000 orange barrels on the highway, which means it's spring, because there's only two seasons in Michigan, winter and construction.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 There you go. Yeah, I know. I went to the University of California, Irvine, UCI. And if you ask somebody who doesn't know that UCI stands for University of California at Irvine. If you ask them what UCI stands for, they'll tell you, under construction indefinitely. Sounds right? Yeah. Well, it's been doing it ever since I was there a long time ago, and they they continue to grow. Now we're up to like 32,000 fresh, or excuse me, undergraduates at the university. And when I was there, there were 2700 students. So it's grown a little. That's   Scott Hanton ** 04:05 a lot of change. I'm used to big universities. I'm a graduate of both Michigan State and the University of Wisconsin. So these are big places.   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 Wow, yeah. So you're used to it. I really enjoyed it when it was a small campus. I'm glad I went there, and that was one of the reasons that caused me to go there, was because I knew I could probably get a little bit more visibility with instructors, and that would be helpful for me to get information when they didn't describe things well in class. And it generally worked out pretty well. So I can't complain a lot. Perfect. Glad it worked well for you, it did. Well, why don't you start, if you would, by telling us kind of about the early Scott growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Scott Hanton ** 04:49 I grew up in Michigan, in a town called Saginaw. I was blessed with a family that loved me and that, you know, I was raised in a very. Supportive environment. But young Scott asked, Why about everything you know, the way kids do? Yeah, right. And my mom would tell you that when I was a kid, why was my most favorite word? And most kids outgrow that. I never did, yeah, so Me neither. I still ask why all the time. It's still my most favorite word, and it caused me to want to go explore the sciences, because what I found, as I learned about science, was that I could get answers to why questions better in science than in other places.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 Yeah, makes sense. So what kinds of questions did you ask about why? Well, I asked   Scott Hanton ** 05:43 all kinds of questions about why, like, why are we having that for dinner? Or, why is my bedtime so early? Those questions didn't have good answers, at least from my perspective, right? But I also asked questions like, why is grass green, and why is the sky blue? And studying physical chemistry at Michigan State answered those questions. And so   Michael Hingson ** 06:03 how early did you learn about Rayleigh scattering? But that's you know?   Scott Hanton ** 06:07 Well, I learned the basic concepts from a really important teacher in my life, Mr. Leeson was my seventh grade science teacher, and what I learned from him is that I could ask questions that weren't pertinent to what he was lecturing about, and that taught me a lot about the fact that science was a lot bigger than what we got in the curriculum or in the classroom. And so Mr. Leeson was a really important person in my development, and showed me that there was that science was a lot bigger than I thought it was as a student, but I didn't really learn about rally scattering until I got to college.   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 But at the same time, it sounds like he was willing to allow you to grow and and learn, which so many people aren't willing to do. They're too impatient.   Scott Hanton ** 06:58 He was a first year teacher the year I had him so he hadn't become cynical yet. So it was great to just be able to stay after class and ask him a question, or put my hand up in class and ask him a question. He also did a whole series of demonstrations that were fabulous and made the science come to life in a way that reading about it doesn't stir the imagination. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:23 I had teachers that did that too. I remember very well my freshman general science teacher in high school, Mr. Dills, and one day, and he loved to do kind of unique things, just to push the boundaries of students a little bit. He came in one day and he said, I got a pop quiz for everybody, which doesn't help me, because the pop quiz was in print, but he handed it out. And then he took me to the back of the room, and he said, You're not going to really be able to do this quiz. Let me tell you why. And he said, Oh, and one thing he said is, just be sure you follow all the instructions and you'll be fine on the test to everybody. He brought me back to the back of the room. He says, Well, here's the deal. He says, if people really read the instructions, what they'll do is they'll read the instruction that says, Read all the questions before you start answering, and if you get to the last question, it says answer only the first question, which is what is your name and and sure enough, of course, people didn't read the instructions. And he said, so I wouldn't be able to really deal with you with that one, with that whole thing, just because it wouldn't work well. And I said, I understand, but he loved to make students think, and I learned so much about the whole concept of realizing the need to observe and be observant in all that you do. And it was lessons like that from him that really helped a lot with that. For me,   Scott Hanton ** 08:48 I had a high school chemistry teacher named Mrs. Schultz, and the first experiment that we did in her class, in the first week of classes, was she wanted us to document all of the observations that we could make about a burning candle. And I was a hot shot student. Thought I, you know, owned the world, and I was going to ace this test. And, you know, I had maybe a dozen observations about a burning candle, and thought I had done a great job describing it, until she started sharing her list, and she probably had 80 observations about a burning candle, and it taught me the power of observation and the need to talk about the details of those observations and to be specific about what the observations were. And that experiment seems simple, light a candle and tell me what you see. Yeah, but that lesson has carried on with me now for more than approaching 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 Let's see, as I recall, if you light a candle, what the center of the flame is actually pretty cool compared to the outside. It's more hollow. Now I wouldn't be able to easily tell that, because. Is my my process for observing doesn't really use eyesight to do that, so I I'm sure there are other technologies today that I could use to get more of that information. But   Scott Hanton ** 10:12 I'm also sure that that experiment could be re crafted so that it wasn't so visual, yeah, right, that there could be tactile experiments to tell me about observations or or audible experiments about observation, where you would excel in ways that I would suffer because I'm so visually dominant. The   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 issue, though, is that today, there's a lot more technology to do that than there was when I was in school and you were in school, but yeah, I think there is a lot available. There's a company called Independence Science, which is actually owned and run by Dr Cary sapollo. And Carrie is blind, and he is a blind chemist, and he wanted to help develop products for blind people to be able to deal with laboratory work. So he actually worked with a company that was, well, it's now Vernier education systems. They make a product called LabQuest with something like 80 different kinds of probes that you can attach to it, and the LabQuest will will provide visual interpretations of whatever the probes are showing carry, and independent science took that product and made it talk, so that There is now a Talking LabQuest. And the reality is that all those probes became usable because the LabQuest became accessible to be able to do that, and they put a lot of other things into it too. So it's more than just as a talking device, a lab device. It's got a periodic table in it. It's got a lot of other kinds of things that they just put in it as well. But it's really pretty cool because it now makes science a whole lot more accessible. I'm going to have to think about the different kinds of probes and how one could use that to look at a candle. I think that'd be kind of fun.   Scott Hanton ** 12:15 And it's just awesome to hear that there's innovation and space to make science more available to everybody. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 the real problem that we face is the one that we mostly always have faced, which is societal attitudes, as opposed to really being or not being able to do the experiments, is people think we can't, and that's the barrier that we always, usually have to overcome.   Scott Hanton ** 12:39 What I find in my time as a coach, mentor, supervisor, is that if somebody believes they can't do it, they can't do it. Yeah. And so it's often about overcoming their own mental limitations, the limitations that they've placed on themselves,   Michael Hingson ** 12:56 and that's right, or unfortunately, the limitations that other people place on us, and we, all too often and weigh too much, buy into those limitations. So it's it is something that we, especially in the sciences, should recognize that we shouldn't be doing so much of. I know that when I was at UC Irvine as a graduate student, I learned once that there was a letter in my file that a professor wrote. Fortunately, I never had him as a professor, but it and I was in my master's program at the time in physics, and this guy put a letter in my file saying that no blind person could ever absorb the material to get an advanced degree in physics at the University. Just put that in there, which is so unfortunate, because the real thing that is demonstrated there is a prejudice that no scientist should ever have.   Scott Hanton ** 13:51 I'm hopeful that as you graduated, there was a retraction letter in your file as well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 not that I ever heard, but yeah. Well, I'd already gotten my bachelor's degree, but yeah. But you know, things happen, but it is a it is a societal thing, and society all too often creates limitations, and sometimes we don't find them right away, but it is one of the big issues that, in general, we have to deal with. And on all too often, society does some pretty strange things because it doesn't understand what science is all about. I know when we were dealing with covid, when it all started, leaving the conspiracy theorists out of it. One of the things that I learned was that we have all these discussions about AI, if you will. But AI was one of the primary mechanisms that helped to develop the mRNA vaccines that are now still the primary things that we use to get vaccinated against covid, because they the artificial intelligence. I'm not sure how artificial. It is, but was able to craft what became the vaccine in a few days. And scientists acknowledged, if they had to do it totally on their own, it would take years to have done what AI did in a few days.   Scott Hanton ** 15:13 The AI technology is amazing and powerful, but it's not new. No, I met a person who shared her story about AI investigations and talked about what she was doing in this field 30 years ago. Yeah, in her master's work. And you know, I knew it wasn't brand new, but I didn't really realize how deep its roots went until I talked to her.   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 I worked as my first jobs out of college with Ray Kurzweil, who, of course, nowadays, is well known for the singularity and so on. But back then, he developed the first reading machine that blind people could use to read printed material. And one of the things that he put into that machine was the ability, as it scanned more material, to learn and better recognize the material. And so he was doing machine learning back in the 1970s   Scott Hanton ** 16:07 right? And all of this is, you know, as Newton said on the shoulders of giants, right, right? He said it a bit cynically, but it's still true that we all in science, we are learning from each other. We're learning from the broader community, and we're integrating that knowledge as we tackle the challenges that we are exploring.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 So what got you to go into chemistry when you went into college?   Scott Hanton ** 16:33 That's a good question. So when I was 13 years old, I went on a youth a church group youth trip to another city, and so they split us up, and there were three of us from our group that stayed overnight in a host family. And at dinner that night, the father worked in a pharmaceutical company, and he talked about the work he was doing, and what he was doing was really synthetic chemistry around small molecule drug discovery. And for me, it was absolutely fascinating. I was thrilled at that information. I didn't know any scientists growing up, I had no adult input other than teachers about science, and I can remember going back home and my parents asking me how the trip went. And it's like, it's fantastic. I'm going to be a chemist. And they both looked at me like, what is that? How do you make money from it? How do you get that? My dad was a banker. My mom was a school teacher. They had no scientific background, but that that one conversation, such serendipity, right? One conversation when I was 13 years old, and I came home and said, I'm going to be a chemist, and I've never really deviated from that path. Did you have other siblings? Younger brother and another younger sister?   Michael Hingson ** 17:54 Okay? Did they go into science by any remote chance?   Scott Hanton ** 17:58 Not at all. So they were both seventh grade teachers for more than 30 years. So my brother taught math and English, and my sister teaches social studies.   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 Well, there you go. But that is also important. I actually wanted to teach physics, but jobs and other things and circumstances took me in different directions, but I think the reality is that I ended up going into sales. And what I realized, and it was partly because of a Dale Carnegie sales course I took, but I realized that good sales people are really teachers, because they're really teaching people about products or about things, and they're also sharp enough to recognize what their products might or might not do to help a customer. But that, again, not everyone does that, but so I figure I still was teaching, and today, being a public speaker, traveling the world, talking, of course, about teamwork and other things, it's still all about teaching.   Scott Hanton ** 18:57 I think I've always been a teacher, and if you talk to my coworkers along the way, I enjoy helping people. I enjoy sharing my knowledge. There's always been a teacher inside but only in this job as the editorial director at lab manager have I really been able to do it directly. So we've developed what we call the lab manager Academy, and I create e learning courses to help lab managers be more successful, and it's been a passion project for me, and it's been a load of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 19:30 And it doesn't get better than that. It's always great when it's a load of fun, yes,   Scott Hanton ** 19:35 well, so you left college and you got a bachelor's and a master's degree, right? No masters for me, that step you went right to the old PhD, yeah. So I went straight. I went graduated from Michigan State. So Michigan State was on terms back in those days. So graduated in June, got married in July, moved to Wisconsin in August. To graduate school at the end of August at the University of Wisconsin. Okay? And my second year as a graduate student, my professor asked me, Do you want to stop and complete a master's? And I said, Wait, tell me about this word stop. And he said, Well, you'd have to finish the Master's requirements and write a thesis, and that's going to take some time. And I said, Do I have to and he said, No, and I don't recommend it. Just keep going forward and finish your PhD. So that's   Michael Hingson ** 20:30 and what does your wife do?   Scott Hanton ** 20:33 So my wife also is in the graduate program at the University of Wisconsin, and she decided that a master's degree was the right answer for her, because she didn't want to be a PhD scientist in XYZ narrow band of science. She wanted to be a master of chemistry. Okay, and so we took different paths through graduate school, but each of us took the path that worked best for us, and each pass has great value, so we're both happy with the choices that we made,   Michael Hingson ** 21:06 and complement each other and also give you, still lots of great things to talk about over dinner.   Scott Hanton ** 21:12 Absolutely. And she took that master's degree, went into the pharmaceutical industry and largely behaved as a librarian in her first part of her career, she wasn't called a librarian, but what she really did was a lot of information integrating, and then moved into the Library Group, and was a corporate librarian for a long time, and then a community librarian. So that path worked brilliantly for her. She also has a Masters of Library Science. So I have one PhD. She has two Master's degree. I have one bachelor's degree. She has two bachelor's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 21:50 Oh, so you can have interesting discussions about who really progressed further,   21:54 absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 Well, that's, that's, that's cute, though. Well, I I got my bachelor's and master's. My wife, who I didn't meet until years later, wanted to be a librarian, but she ended up getting a a Master's at USC in so in sociology and and ended up getting a teaching credential and going into teaching, and taught for 10 years, and then she decided she wanted to do something different, and became a travel agent, which she had a lot of fun with. That is different, it is, but she enjoyed it, and along the way, then we got married. It was a great marriage. She was in a wheelchair her whole life. So she read, I pushed, worked out well, complimentary skills, absolutely, which is the way, way it ought to be, you know, and we had a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, she passed now two and a half years ago, but as I tell people, we were married 40 years, and I'm sure she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I try to just behave. Sounds like good advice. Yeah, probably certainly the safe way to go. But we, we, we had lots of neat discussions, and our our activities and our expertise did, in a lot of ways, complement each other, so it was a lot of fun. And as I said, she went to USC. I enjoyed listening to USC football because I thought that that particular college team had the best announcers in the business, least when when I was studying in Southern California, and then when we got married, we learned the the day we got married, the wedding was supposed to start at four, and it didn't start till later because people weren't showing up for the wedding. And we learned that everybody was sitting out in their cars waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. And we knew that God was on our side when we learned that SC beat the snot out of Notre Dame. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, the rivalries we face. So what did you do after college?   Scott Hanton ** 24:09 So did my PhD at the University of Wisconsin. And one of the nice things, a fringe benefit of going to a big, important program to do your PhD, is that recruiters come to you. And so I was able to do 40 different, four, zero, 40 different interviews on campus without leaving Madison. And one of those interviews was with a company called Air Products. And that worked out, and they hired me. And so we moved to Allentown, Pennsylvania to go to work. I went to work at Air Products and and Helen found a role in the pharmaceutical industry at Merck. And so we did that for a long time. I was initially a research expert, a PhD expert doing lasers and materials and analytical stuff. And over the years. I progressed up the ladder from researcher to supervisor to what did we call it, group head to Section Manager, to operations manager, and ultimately to General Manager.   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 Well, at least being in Allentown, you were close to a Cracker Barrel restaurant. Yes, that is true. That was the closest to one to where we lived in New Jersey, so we visited it several times. That's how I know   Scott Hanton ** 25:26 about it. Maybe we were there at the same time. Michael, maybe this isn't our first. It's   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 very possible. But we enjoyed Cracker Barrel and enjoyed touring around Pennsylvania. So I should have asked, What prompted you to go to the University of Wisconsin to do your your graduate work, as opposed to staying in Michigan. So   Scott Hanton ** 25:47 my advisor at Michigan State, our advisor at Michigan State, told us, here's the top five schools, graduate programs in chemistry, apply to them all. Go to the one you get into. And so I got into three. Helen got into two. The one that was the same was Wisconsin. So that's where we went, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 Well, then no better logic and argument than that.   Scott Hanton ** 26:14 It was a great Madison. Wisconsin is a beautiful city. It one of the things I really liked about the chemistry program there then, and it's still true now, is how well the faculty get along together so many collaborative projects and just friendliness throughout the hallways. And yes, they are all competing at some level for grant support, but they get along so well, and that makes it for a very strong community,   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 and it probably also means that oftentimes someone who's applying for something can enlist support from other people who are willing to help.   Scott Hanton ** 26:50 And as a graduate student, it meant that I had more than one professor that I could go to my advisor. There was a whole group of advisors who ran joint group meetings and would give us advice about our work or our writing or our approach, or just because we needed a pep talk, because completing a PhD is hard. Yeah, right, so that community was really important to me, and it's something I took away that when I started my industrial career, I had seen the value of community, and I wanted to build stronger communities wherever I went, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So what does a company, does air products do   Scott Hanton ** 27:31 that's sort of in the name, right? They're an industrial gas company. Got some of their big, biggest products are taking air and separating it into its components of nitrogen, oxygen, oxygen, argon, whatever, right? But at that time, they also had a chemicals business and a semiconductor business, or electronics business. So there was a lot of chemistry going on, although a lot of my work colleagues were chemical engineers who were working on the gasses side of the business, we had significant number of chemistry, sorts material science, sorts of people who are working on the chemicals side. Now, over time, Air Products divested those businesses, and now it's much more of a true industrial gas company. But I had the opportunity to work in an integrated science company that did all sorts of things.   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah, and as as we know, certainly a little helium never hurt anyone.   Scott Hanton ** 28:30 No little helium, you know, raises people's spirits, it   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 does and their voices, it does. I I've visited helium tanks many times at UC Irvine when they had liquid helium, which was certainly a challenge because of how cold it had to be. But occasionally we would open a valve and little cold but useful helium gas would escape   Scott Hanton ** 28:56 very cold. Please be safe. Cryogens are are dangerous materials, and we gotta make sure we handle them with due respect.   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 Yeah, well, we, we all did and and didn't take too many chances. So it worked out pretty well. So you stayed in Allentown and you stayed with Air Products for how long   Scott Hanton ** 29:19 I was in Air Products for 20 years. So the analytical group that I was part of, we were about 92 or 93 people when I joined the company, when I just left after earning my PhD. After 20 years, that group was down to about 35 just progressive series of decisions that made the department smaller, and as the Department got smaller and smaller, we were worried about our abilities to sustain our work. And so a dear friend and a key colleague, Paula McDaniel, and I, worked to try to see what other kind of opportunities there were. Yeah. And so we reached out to a contract research organization called Intertech to see if they would be interested in maybe acquiring our analytical department. And when we called them, and by the way, we called them before we talked to our boss about it, she forgave us later, but when we called the guy on the end of the phone said, Wait a minute, let me get your file. And it's like, what you have a file on Air Products, analytical, really? Why? Well, it turned out that they had a file, and that they had an active Merger and Acquisition Group, and they wanted an integrated analytical department on the east coast of the US. And so we engaged in negotiation, and ultimately this analytical department was sold by Air Products to Intertech. So on Friday, we're a little cog in a giant engine of an global, international company, and our funding comes from Vice Presidents. And on Monday, we're a standalone business of 35 people, we need to write quotes in order to make money. So it was an enormous challenge to transition from a service organization to a business. But oh my goodness, did we learn a lot,   Michael Hingson ** 31:13 certainly a major paradigm shift,   Scott Hanton ** 31:18 and I was lucky that I lost the coin flip, and Paula won, and she said, I want to be business development director. And I said, thank God. So she went off to be the key salesperson, and Paula was utterly brilliant as a technical salesperson, and I became the operations manager, which allowed me to keep my hands dirty with the science and to work with the scientists and to build a system and a community that allowed us to be successful in a CRO world.   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So at that time, when you became part, part of them, the new company, were you or the standalone business? Were you working in lab? Still yourself?   Scott Hanton ** 32:01 Yes. So I had the title Operations Manager and all of the scientific staff reported into me, but I was still the technical expert in some mass spectrometry techniques, particularly MALDI and also tough Sims, and so I still had hands on lab responsibility that I needed to deliver. And over time, I was able to train some people to take some of those responsibilities off. But when the weight of the world was particularly heavy, the place for me to go was in the lab and do some experiments.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 Yeah, still so important to be able to keep your hand in into to know and understand. I know I had that same sort of need being the manager of an office and oftentimes working with other people who were the engineers, coming from a little bit of a technical background as well. I worked to always make sure I knew all I could about the products that I was dealing with and selling, and my sales people who worked for me constantly asked, How come, you know, all this stuff, and we don't then, my response always was, did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Or have you kept up on the product bulletins? Because it's all right there, whether I actually physically repaired products or not, I knew how to do it. And so many times when I was involved in working with some of our engineers, I remember a few times our field support people, and we were working out of New Jersey, and then in New York at the time, in the World Trade Center, we had some customers up at Lockheed Martin, up in Syria, Rochester, I think it was. And the guys would go up, and then they'd call me on the phone, and we'd talk about it, and between us, we came up with some bright ideas. And I remember one day, all of a sudden, I get this phone call, and these guys are just bouncing off the walls, because whatever it was that was going on between them and me, we figured it out, and they put it in play and made it work, and they were all just as happy as clams at high tide, which is the way it ought to   Scott Hanton ** 34:13 be. It's great to work in a team that finds success. The longer I was in technical management, the more I enjoyed the success of the team. It didn't need to be my success anymore that helping the scientists be successful in their roles was truly satisfying,   Michael Hingson ** 34:33 and that helped you, by definition, be more successful in your role.   Scott Hanton ** 34:36 And no question, it could be seen as a selfish byproduct, but the fact is that it still felt really good.   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Yeah, I hear you, because I know for me, I never thought about it as I've got to be successful. It's we've got problems to solve. Let's do it together. And I always told people that we're a team. And I have told every salesperson. I ever hired. I'm not here to boss you around. You've convinced me that you should be able to sell our products, and sometimes I found that they couldn't. But I said my job is to work with you to figure out how I can enhance what you do, and what skills do I bring to add value to you, because we've got to work together, and the people who understood that and who got it were always the most successful people that I ever had in my teams.   Scott Hanton ** 35:30 One of the things I strive to do as a leader of any organization is to understand the key strengths of the people on the team and to try to craft their roles in such a way that they spend the majority of their time executing their strengths. Yeah. I've also discovered that when I truly investigate poor performance, there's often a correlation between poor performance and people working in their weaknesses. Yeah, and if we can shift those jobs, change those roles, make change happen so that people can work more often in their strengths, then good things happen.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 And if you can bring some of your skills into the mix and augment what they do, so much the better.   Scott Hanton ** 36:16 Yeah, because I'm just another member of the team, my role is different, but I need to also apply my strengths to the problems and be wary of my weaknesses, because as the leader of the organization, my words carried undue weight. Yeah, and if, if I was speaking or acting in a space where I was weak, people would still do what I said, because I had the most authority, and that was just a lose, lose proposition   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 by any standard. And and when you, when you operated to everyone's strengths, it always was a win. Yep, which is so cool. So you went to Intertech, and how long were you there?   Scott Hanton ** 36:57 I was at Intertech for 10 years, and work I can if you know, for any listeners out there who work in the CRO world, it is a tough business. It is a grind working in that business, yeah? So it was a lot of long hours and testy customers and shortages of materials and equipment that was a hard a hard a hard road to plow,   Michael Hingson ** 37:22 yeah, yeah, it gets to be frustrating. Sometimes it's what you got to do, but it still gets to be frustrating gets to be a challenge. The best part   Scott Hanton ** 37:32 for me was I had a great team. We had senior and junior scientists. They were good people. They worked hard. They fundamentally, they cared about the outcomes. And so it was a great group of people to work with. But the contract lab business is a tough business. Yeah, so when covid came, you know, the pandemic settles in, all the restrictions are coming upon us. I was tasked as the General Manager of the business with setting up all the protocols, you know, how are we going to meet the number of people this basing the masks, you know, how could we work with and we were essential as a lab, so we had to keep doing what we were doing. And it took me about a week to figure non stop work to figure out what our protocols were going to be, and the moment I turned them into my boss, then I got laid off. So what you want to do in a time of crisis is you want to let go of the the general manager, the safety manager, the quality manager and the Chief Scientist, because those are four people that you don't need during times of stress or challenge or crisis. On the plus side for me, getting laid off was a bad hour. It hurt my pride, but after an hour, I realized that all the things that I'd been stressing about for years trying to run this business were no longer my problem. Yeah, and I found that it was a tremendous weight lifted off my shoulders to not feel responsible for every problem and challenge that that business had.   Michael Hingson ** 39:14 And that's always a good blessing when you when you figure that out and don't worry about the the issues anymore. That's a good thing. It was certainly   Scott Hanton ** 39:25 good for me. Yeah, so I'm not going to recommend that people go get laid off. No world to get fired. But one problem that I had is because Paula and I worked to create that business, I sort of behaved like an owner, but was treated like an employee. And my recommendation to people is, remember, you're an employee, find some personal boundaries that protect you from the stress of the business, because you're not going to be rewarded or treated like an owner.   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 Yeah, because you're not because. Or not.   Scott Hanton ** 40:01 So I got laid off. It was in the height of the pandemic. So, you know, I'm too busy of a human being to sort of sit in a rocking chair and watch the birds fly by. That's not my style or my speed. So I started a consulting business, and that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed doing the consulting work, but I learned something really important about myself, and that's that while I can sell and I can be an effective salesperson, I don't like selling, and as a company of one, when I didn't sell, I didn't make any money, yeah, and so I needed to figure out something else to do, because I really hated selling, and I wasn't doing it. I was procrastinating, and that made the business be unpredictable and very choppy   Michael Hingson ** 40:51 in that company of one, that guy who was working for you wasn't really doing all that you wanted.   Scott Hanton ** 40:56 Exactly the Yeah, you know me as the founder, was giving me as the salesman, a poor performance review was not meeting objectives. So I had a long time volunteer relationship with lab manager magazine. I had been writing articles for them and speaking for them in webinars and in conferences for a long time, probably more than 10 years, I would say, and they asked me as a consultant to produce a a to a proposal to create the lab manager Academy. So the the founder and owner of the the company, the lab X Media Group, you really saw the value of an academy, and they needed it done. They needed it done. They couldn't figure it out themselves. So I wrote the proposal. I had a good idea of how to do it, but I was new to consulting, and I struggled with, how do I get paid for this? And I had four ideas, but I didn't like them, so I slept on it, and in the morning I had a fifth, which said, hire me full time. I sent in the proposal. An hour later, I had a phone call. A week later, I had a job, so that worked out fantastic. And I've really enjoyed my time at lab manager magazine. Great people, fun work. It's really interesting to me to be valued for what I know rather than for what I can do. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:23 the two relate. But still, it does need to be more about what you know, what you really bring, as opposed to what you can do, because what you can do in general probably is an offshoot of what you know.   Scott Hanton ** 42:38 So this gives me the opportunity to help lots of people. So on the outside of the company, I'm writing articles, creating courses, giving talks to help lab managers. Because I was a lab manager for a long time, yeah, over 20 years, and I know what those challenges are. I know how hard that job is, and I know how many decisions lab managers need to make, and it's wonderful to be able to share my experience and help them, and I am motivated to help them. So was it hard? Oh, go ahead, on the inside, I'm literally an internal subject matter expert, and so I can coach and teach and help my colleagues with what's the science? What do lab managers really think? How do we pitch this so that it resonates with lab managers, and I think that helps make all of our products better and more successful.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 So was it hard? Well, I guess best way to put it is that, was it really hard to switch from being a scientist to being a lab manager and then going into being a subject matter expert and really out of the laboratory. So   Scott Hanton ** 43:48 people ask me all the time, Scott, don't you miss being in the lab and doing experiments? And my answer is, I miss being in the lab. And I do miss being in the lab. You know, on very stressful days at Intertech, I'd go in the lab and I'd do an experiment, yeah, because it was fun, and I had more control over the how the experiment was run and what I would learn from it than I did running a business. But the flip side of that is, I do experiments all the time. What I learned as the general manager of a business was the scientific method works. Let's data hypothesis. Let's figure out how to test it. Let's gather data, and let's see if the hypothesis stands or falls. And we ran a business that way, I think, pretty successfully. And even now, in in media and publishing, we still run experiments all the time. And it's kind of funny that most of my editorial colleagues that I work with, they think my favorite word is experiment. My favorite word is still why, but we talk all the time now about doing experiments, and that was a new thing for them, but now we can do continual improvement more in a more dedicated way, and we do it a lot faster. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:00 yeah. So what's the hardest thing you think about being a lab manager?   Scott Hanton ** 45:06 I think the hardest thing about let me answer that with two. I'm not going to be able to narrow it down to one, so I'll give you two. The first one is you transform, maybe one day to the next, from really being in control of your science and working with whether it's animals or rocks or electrons or chemicals, whatever you're working with, having a great degree of knowledge and a lot of control, and the next day, you're hurting cats. And so it's about that transition from having control over your destiny to influencing people to get the work done, and working with people instead of working with experiments, that's really hard. The second is, as a lab manager, there's endless decisions, and so combating decision fatigue is a big deal, and everybody in the lab depends upon you for the decisions you make. And it's not that every decision has to be perfect, you know, that's just a different failure mode if you try to make perfect decisions, but every decision needs to be made promptly. And as a scientist, I could always make more data in order to make a better decision, but as a lab manager, I would often only have maybe 40 or 50% of the data I wanted, and a decision had to be made. And getting comfortable making decisions in the face of uncertainty is really hard.   Michael Hingson ** 46:29 So certainly, being a lab manager or Well, dealing with managers in the way we're talking about it here, has to be very stressful. How do you how do you cope with the stress?   Scott Hanton ** 46:42 So I think ways to cope with the stress successfully is, first of all, you've got to take care of yourself. You know, we've all flown on airplanes, and what is the safety person in the aisle or on the video? Do oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling, and what do we do with them? We put them on before we help somebody else, right? We all know that. But in the workplace, especially as a manager, it's hard to remember that as we care for our team and try and take care of our team, there might not be enough time or energy or capacity left to take care of ourselves, but if we don't fill that gas tank every day doing something, then we can't help our team. And so one way to deal with the stress is to make sure that you take care of yourself. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 what do you do? How do you deal with that? So   Scott Hanton ** 47:31 for me, ways that I can reinvigorate is one. I like being outside and get my hands dirty. So I'm not really a gardener, but I call myself a yard dinner. So I grow grass and I grow flowers, and I trim trees, and I want to go outside, and I want to see immediate return on my effort, and I want it to be better than when I started. And it's good if I have to clean from under my fingernails when I'm doing it. Another thing I like to do is I play all kinds of games I'm happy to play, sorry, with little kids, or I'll play complicated strategy games with people who want to sit at a table for three or four hours at a time. Yeah? And that allows my brain to spin and to work but on something completely different. Yeah. And another thing that's been important for me, especially when I was a lab manager is to be involved in youth coaching, so I coached kids soccer and basketball and baseball teams, and it's just beautiful to be out there on a field with a ball, with kids. And you know, the worries of the world just aren't there. The kids don't know anything about them. And it's fun to work with the ones who are really good, but it's equally fun to work with the ones who have never seen the ball before, and to help them do even the most basic things. And that kind of giving back and paying it forward, that sort of stuff fills my tank.   Michael Hingson ** 48:51 Yeah, I empathize a lot with with that. For me, I like to read. I've never been much of a gardener, but I also collect, as I mentioned before, old radio shows, and I do that because I'm fascinated by the history and all the things I learned from what people did in the 2030s, 40s and 50s, being on radio, much Less getting the opportunity to learn about the technical aspects of how they did it, because today it's so different in terms of how one edits, how one processes and deals with sounds and so on, but it's but it's fun to do something just totally different than way maybe what your normal Job would be, and and I do love to interact with with people. I love to play games, too. I don't get to do nearly as much of it as I'd like, but playing games is, is a lot of fun,   Scott Hanton ** 49:52 and I agree, and it it's fun, it's diverting, it's it helps me get into a flow so that I'm focused on. Me on one thing, and I have no idea how much time has gone by, and I don't really care. You know, people who play games with me might question this. I don't really care if I win or lose. Certainly I want to win, but it's more important to me that I play well, and if somebody plays better, good for   Michael Hingson ** 50:14 them, great. You'll learn from it. Exactly. Do you play   Scott Hanton ** 50:18 chess? I have played chess. I've played a lot of chess. What I've learned with chess is that I'm not an excellent I'm a good player, but not an excellent player. And when I run into excellent players, they will beat me without even breaking a sweat.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And again, in theory, you learn something from that.   Scott Hanton ** 50:37 What I found is that I don't really want to work that hard and yeah. And so by adding an element of chance or probability to the game, the people who focus on chess, where there are known answers and known situations, they get thrown off by the uncertainty of the of the flip the card or roll the dice. And my brain loves that uncertainty, so I tend to thrive. Maybe it's from my time in the lab with elements of uncertainty, where the chess players wilt under elements of uncertainty, and it's again, it's back to our strengths, right? That's something that I'm good at, so I'm gonna go do it. I've   Michael Hingson ** 51:20 always loved Trivial Pursuit. That's always been a fun game that I enjoy playing. I   Scott Hanton ** 51:25 do love Trivial Pursuit. I watch Jeopardy regularly. A funny story, when we moved into our new house in Pennsylvania, it was a great neighborhood. Loved the neighbors there. When we first moved in, they invited my wife and I to a game night. Excellent. We love games. We're going to play Trivial Pursuit. Awesome like Trivial Pursuit. We're going to play as couples. Bad idea, right? Let's play boys against the girls, or, let's say, random draws. No, we're playing as couples. Okay, so we played as couples. Helen and I won every game by a large margin. We were never invited back for game night. Yeah, invited back for lots of other things, but not game night.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 One of the things that, and I've talked about it with people on this podcast before, is that all too often, when somebody reads a question from a trivial pursuit card, an answer pops in your head, then you went, Oh, that was too easy. That can't be the right answer. So you think about it, and you answer with something else, but invariably, that first answer was always the correct answer.   Scott Hanton ** 52:32 Yes, I'm I have learned to trust my intuition. Yeah. I learned, as a research scientist, that especially in talking to some of my peers, who are very dogmatic, very step by step scientists. And they lay out the 20 steps to that they felt would be successful. And they would do one at a time, one through 20. And that made them happy for me, I do one and two, and then I'd predict where that data led me, and I do experiment number seven, and if it worked, I'm off to eight. And so I they would do what, one step at a time, one to 20, and I'd sort of do 127, 1420, yeah. And that I learned that that intuition was powerful and valuable, and I've learned to trust it. And in my lab career, it served me really well. But also as a manager, it has served me well to trust my intuition, and at least to listen to it. And if I need to analyze it, I can do that, but I'm going to listen to it,   Michael Hingson ** 53:31 and that's the important thing, because invariably, it's going to give you useful information, and it may be telling you not what to do, but still trusting it and listening to it is so important, I've found that a lot over the years,   Scott Hanton ** 53:47 Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink, where he talks about the power of the subconscious, and his claim is that the subconscious is 100,000 times smarter than our conscious brain, and I think when we are trusting our intuition, we're tapping into that super computer that's in our skulls. If you want to learn more, read blank. It's a great story.   Michael Hingson ** 54:10 I hear you. I agree. How can people learn to be better leaders and managers?   Scott Hanton ** 54:18 So I think it's there's really three normal ways that people do this. One is the power of experiment, right? And I did plenty of that, and I made tons of errors. It's painful. It's irritating, trial and error, but I used to tell people at Intertech that I was the general manager because I'd made the most mistakes, which gave me the most opportunity to learn. It was also partly because a lot of my peers wanted nothing to do with the job. You know, they wanted to be scientists. Another way is we, we get coached and mentored by people around us, and that is awesome if you have good supervisors, and it's tragic if you have bad supervisors, because you don't know any better and you take for granted. That the way it's been done is the way it needs to be done, and that prevents us from being generative leaders and questioning the status quo. So there's problems there, too. And I had both good and bad supervisors during my career. I had some awful, toxic human beings who were my supervisors, who did damage to me, and then I had some brilliant, caring, empathetic people who raised me up and helped me become the leader that I am today. So it's a bit of a crap shoot. The third way is go out and learn it from somebody who's done it right, and that's why we generated the lab manager Academy to try to codify all the mistakes I made and what are the learnings from them? And when I'm talking with learners who are in the program, it's we have a huge positive result feedback on our courses. And what I talk to people about who take our courses is I'm glad you appreciate what we've put together here. That makes me feel good. I'm glad it's helping you. But when these are my mistakes and the answers to my mistakes, when you make mistakes, you need to in the future, go make some courses and teach people what the lessons were from your mistakes and pay it forward. Yeah. So I recommend getting some training.   Michael Hingson ** 56:17 What's the difference between management and leadership?   Scott Hanton ** 56:21 I particularly love a quote from Peter Drucker. So Peter Drucker was a professor in California. You may have heard of him before.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 I have. I never had the opportunity to meet him, but I read.   Scott Hanton ** 56:34 I didn't either material. I've read his books, and I think he is an insightful human being, yes. So the quote goes like this, management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. So as a technical manager, there's a bunch of things we have to get right. We have to get safety right. We have to get quality right. There's an accuracy and precision that we need to get right for our outcomes and our results. Those are management tasks, but leadership is about doing the right things. And the interesting thing about that definition is it doesn't require a title or a role or any level of authority. So anyone can be a leader if you're consistently doing the right things, you are exhibiting leadership, and that could be from the person sweeping the floors or the person approving the budget, or anyone in between.   Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Yeah, I've heard that quote from him before, and absolutely agree with it. It makes a whole lot of sense.   Scott Hanton ** 57:41 Other definitions that I've seen trying to distinguish management and leadership tend to use the words manage and lead, and I don't like definitions that include the words that they're trying to define. They become circular at some level. This one, I think, is clear about it, what its intention is, and for me, it has worked through my career, and so the separation is valuable. I have authority. I'm the manager. I have accountability to get some stuff right, but anyone can lead, and everyone can lead, and the organization works so much better when it's full of leaders   Michael Hingson ** 58:21 and leaders who are willing to recognize when they bring something to the table, or if someone else can add value in ways that they can't, to be willing to let the other individual take the leadership position for a while.   Scott Hanton ** 58:40 Absolutely, and you know that really comes down to building an environment and a culture that's supportive. And so Amy Edmondson has written extensively on the importance of psychological safety, and that psychological safety hinges on what you just said, right? If the guy who sweeps the floor has an observation about the organization. Do they feel safe to go tell the person in charge that this observation, and if they feel safe, and if that leader is sufficiently vulnerable and humble to listen with curiosity about that observation, then everybody benefits, yeah, and the more safe everyone feels. We think about emotion. Emotional safety is they anyone can bring their best self to work, and psychological safety is they can contribute their ideas and observations with no threat of retaliation, then we have an environment where we're going to get the best out of everybody, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 which is the way it it really ought to be. And all too often we don't necessarily see it, but that is the way it ought   Scott Hanton ** 59:53 to be. Too many people are worried about credit, or, I don't know, worried about things that I don't see. Yeah, and they waste human potential, right? They they don't open their doors to hire anybody. They they judge people based on what they look like instead of who they are, or they box people in into roles, and don't let them flourish and Excel. And whenever you're doing those kinds of things, you're wasting human potential. And businesses, science and business are too hard to waste human potential. We need to take advantage of everything that people are willing to give. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 we've been doing this for quite a while already today. So I'm going to ask as a kind of a last question, what, what advice do you want to leave for people to think about going forward in their lives and in their careers?   Scott Hanton ** 1:00:48 So I was participating in a LinkedIn chat today where a professor was asking the question, what sort of advice would you wish you got when you were 21 Okay, so it was an interesting thread, and there was one contributor to the thread who said something I thought was particularly valuable. And she said, attitude matters. Attitude matters. We can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we deal with it and how we respond, right? And so I think if we can hold our attitude as our accountability, and we can direct our strengths and our talents to applying them against the challenges that the business or the science or the lab or the community faces, and we can go in with some positive attitude and positive desire for for change and improvement, and we can be vulnerable and humble enough to accept other people's ideas and to interact through discussion and healthy debate. Then everything's better. I also like Kelleher his quote he was the co founder of Southwest Airlines, and he said, when you're hiring, hire for attitude, train for skill. Attitude is so important. So I think, understand your attitude. Bring the attitude you want, the attitude you value, the attitude that's that's parallel to your core values. And then communicate to others about their attitude and how it's working or not working for them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:31 And hopefully, if they have a positive or good enough attitude, they will take that into consideration and grow because of it absolutely   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:41 gives everybody the chance to be the best they can be.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, Scott, this has been wonderful. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:51 So LinkedIn is great. I've provided Michael my LinkedIn connection. So I would love to have people connect to me on LinkedIn or email. S Hanson at lab manager.com love to have interactions with the folks out there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:08 Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time. We'll have to do more of this.   Scott Hanton ** 1:03:13 Michael, I really enjoyed it. This was a fun conversation. It was stimulating. You asked good questio

This week, we're bringing you an episode from the FT's Behind the Money podcast: Every year, the Financial Times selects the most outstanding business book of the year. For 2023, the top pick is a book about failure. The FT's senior business writer Andrew Hill sits down with the winner, Amy Edmondson, the author of Right Kind of Wrong and “the world's most influential organisational psychologist”. Edmondson's book explores the value in failure, what we can learn from it and what's wrong with Silicon Valley's “fail fast, fail often” mantra.Follow Behind the Money wherever you listen to podcasts.For the full text transcript, visit ted.com/podcasts/fixable-transcriptsFor a chance to give your own TED Talk, fill out the Idea Search Application: ted.com/ideasearch. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Joelle Tegwen: Building High-Performing Teams Through Three Essential Elements Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Joelle identifies three essential characteristics for Scrum Master success: psychological safety, collaboration, and cross-skilling with role blurring. She emphasizes the importance of teams being comfortable with conflict, drawing from Amy Edmondson's work and Google's Project Aristotle research. Her approach involves mapping where a team currently stands and focusing on one of these three characteristics at a time. The key is building relationships where challenging each other becomes positive behavior, being clear about what you're trying to achieve with the team, and regularly checking in for feedback. Success comes from creating an environment where team members can grow beyond their individual silos while maintaining strong collaborative relationships. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Sailboat Retrospective As a consultant frequently joining new teams, Joelle relies on the Sailboat retrospective format to quickly understand where teams are positioned. Teams use the sailboat metaphor to explain their current situation, which gives her rapid insight into their challenges and strengths. This format is particularly valuable because it helps her identify what not to change - understanding what the team considers their strengths prevents well-intentioned interference with what's already working well. The visual metaphor makes it easy for teams to express complex dynamics while providing the facilitator with actionable intelligence for coaching direction. Self-reflection Question: Looking at your current team through the sailboat metaphor, what would you identify as the wind in your sails versus the anchors holding you back, and how might this perspective change your improvement priorities? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Send us a MessageLeverage the leadership practice of rounding to strengthen psychological safety, just culture, and high reliability.In this episode, Sue Tetzlaff discusses the importance of high reliability, just culture, and psychological safety in healthcare leadership. She emphasizes the significance of strengthening relationships through rounding, effective questioning, and the need for follow-up to build trust within teams. The conversation highlights practical options for leaders to engage with their employees in conversations about the culture of safety and high reliability.Access the resource document (3 Options for Psychological-Safety related Rounding Questions) referenced in this episode.Rounding is a proactive approach to leadership.Effective rounding can elevate psychological safety.Local leadership significantly impacts organizational culture.One option for rounding questions: Use employee surveys to inform rounding discussions.Another option for rounding questions: Amy Edmondson's psychological safety assessment questions are adapted into a set of seven possible rounding questions.A third option for rounding questions:  When the environment and/or relationship warrants it, specific “low-trust” rounding questions will be more appropriate for leaders to ask.Follow-up is key to building trust in relationships.Need help improving the culture, performance, and results of your healthcare organization? If so, let's talk.Join Capstone Coaches and healthcare leaders from all around the country in our private Facebook group, Fans of the Framework. Are we connected yet on LinkedIn? Reach us at CapstoneLeadership.net or info@capstoneleadership.net

The discussion opened with insights from Amy Edmondson and Brené Brown, highlighting how trust is built incrementally through "micro moments" and the critical role of vulnerability. Asha shared a powerful personal anecdote of how her vulnerability during a challenging period in Bangladesh fostered deep team connection and enabled significant professional achievements. The conversation then expanded to practical strategies, including The Elevate School's CBI (Credibility, Benevolence, Integrity) framework for assessing and building trust. They also tackled the unique challenges of cultivating trust in today's unpredictable, hybrid work environments, emphasizing the paramount importance of a leader's consistent "presence." Finally, Smita and Asha offered actionable takeaways for both new and seasoned leaders to continuously strengthen trust, underscoring that a truly trustworthy leader models the desired behaviors and fosters a culture of open communication, accountability, and genuine human connection. Key Takeaways and Learnings: Trust as the Foundation of Teamwork: Trust is the "invisible thread" and "oxygen" that creates psychologically safe spaces, enabling individuals to be authentic, take risks, and foster high-performing collaboration.Micro Moments Build Macro Trust: Trust is not built through grand gestures but through consistent, small, daily interactions and acknowledgments, as highlighted by Brené Brown's "sliding door moments."The Power of Vulnerability (When Appropriate): Leaders' vulnerability, when coupled with steadiness and appropriate timing, fosters deeper connections and relatability. Asha's personal story exemplified how accepting help during a vulnerable time transformed her leadership journey and built immense trust.The CBI Framework for Trust: A robust framework for assessing and building trust involves:Credibility & Competence: Demonstrating knowledge, skills, and the ability to effectively fulfill responsibilities, proving you "walk the talk."Benevolence: Showing genuine care and concern for team well-being, consistency in kind actions, taking responsibility, and ensuring people feel seen and supported.Integrity: Maintaining consistency between words and actions, adhering to ethical principles, honesty, and giving credit where it is due.Consistency is Non-Negotiable: For all aspects of trust-building, consistency in a leader's behavior is vital for dependability and to avoid confusion or mistrust within the team.Strategic Presence in Hybrid Work: In remote or hybrid settings, maintaining a leader's "presence" (even virtually) is crucial for building trust, fostering connection, and ensuring team members feel engaged and not isolated. This requires intentional check-ins and empathetic communication.Tailored Trust-Building Approaches:For New Leaders: Focus on humility, active listening, observing, showing genuine respect for existing structures, and thoughtfully offering input that supports rather than overshadows.For Seasoned Leaders: Leverage immense wisdom and experience by continuing personal growth, learning, and adapting to new viewpoints and generations, becoming profoundly inspiring through evolving relevance.Indicators of High-Trust Teams: Teams with strong trust exhibit candid and respectful conversations, open sharing of diverse opinions, shared ownership of mistakes, reduced politics, increased collaboration, and a clear focus on collective goals.Practical Steps for Strengthening Trust: Regular practices include checking in personally (beyond just tasks), recognizing efforts and planning (not just outcomes), modeling accountability by owning mistakes, and leading with consistent, thoughtful intention. "Cultural listening" – observing subtle team dynamics – offers powerful insights.Model the Desired Behavior: The most effective way for leaders to build trustworthiness is to embody the behaviors they wish to see in their team, setting the "tone at the top" through their actions rather than just words. #LeadershipTrust #EcoSystemicLeadership #TeamBuilding #VulnerabilityInLeadership #LeadershipDevelopment #WorkplaceCulture #CBITrust #OrganizationalDevelopment #HighPerformingTeams #CoachingCulture #EmployeeEngagement #FutureOfWork #AshaMinion #TheElevateSchool

Join us for a deep dive into the IVF patient journey with special guest Kelly Gonda, a passionate pharmacist and Fertility Nurse Practitioner. In this episode, we explore how pharmacists can improve safety, outcomes, and access to fertility treatment by understanding the science of in vitro fertilization and the medications involved.

In this episode, Ricardo discusses the impact of fear on project management and the role of psychological safety in transforming fear into positive and effective actions. Fears such as making mistakes, being judged, or losing your job can silence teams, hindering decisions and innovation. Psychological safety, a concept developed by Amy Edmondson, allows people to express themselves without fear of punishment. Leaders play a fundamental role in demonstrating vulnerability and encouraging participation. This does not eliminate discipline, but it dissociates it from fear, replacing it with respect and trust. Authoritarian cultures can generate quick results, but they compromise the team's potential. To reduce fear, genuinely listen to your team and share your own concerns. Projects are made by people, and people need trust. Listen to the podcast to learn more!

Neste episódio, Ricardo aborda o impacto do medo no gerenciamento dos projetos e o papel da segurança psicológica em transformar o medo em ações positivas e eficazes. Medos tais como errar, ser julgado ou perder o emprego, podem silenciar as equipes, prejudicando decisões e inovações. A segurança psicológica, conceito de Amy Edmondson, permite que pessoas se expressem sem medo de punição. Líderes têm papel fundamental ao demonstrar vulnerabilidade e incentivar a participação. Isso não elimina disciplina, mas a dissocia do medo, substituindo-o por respeito e confiança. Culturas autoritárias podem gerar resultados rápidos, mas comprometem o potencial do time. Para reduzir o medo, ouça genuinamente sua equipe e compartilhe suas próprias dúvidas. Projetos são feitos por pessoas, e pessoas precisam de confiança. Escute o podcast para saber mais!

Despite its popularity and promise, unfortunately, there are numerous misconceptions about the definition and practice of psychological safety. Inspired by Amy Edmondson's recent article in Harvard Business Review, I dive into the real meaning of psychological safety—it's about cultivating a space where open debates and the free exchange of ideas thrive, not an environment in which conflict or critical feedback is avoided. Discover how focusing on challenging concepts, not individuals, can foster innovation, engagement, and inclusivity within your team. I unpack why conflict and vigorous debate are not only natural but essential components of a psychologically safe environment.But who is responsible for this shared sense of safety? It's not just the leader's job. Drawing from my experiences as an executive coach, I emphasize the importance of bi-directional relationships within teams. Everyone plays a part in creating a safe space. Learn how implementing concrete behaviors and KPIs, while seeking external feedback, can help assess and improve psychological safety. Reflect on your own role and contributions to developing such an environment, not only in your professional sphere but in your personal life as well.What You'll Learn- Debunking common myths about psychological safety.- How to dynamically measure psychological safety within teams.- The impact of psychological safety on innovation and inclusivity.- The importance of shared responsibility in fostering psychological safety.Podcast Timestamps(00:00) – Misconceptions About Psychological Safety(20:13) – Psychological Safety is a Two-Way StreetKEYWORDSPositive Leadership, Psychological Safety, Constructive Conflict, High-Performing Teams, Open Debates, Free Exchange of Ideas, Combatting Misconceptions, Amy Edmondson, Navigating Conflict, Radical Candor, Collective Excellence, CEO Success

Could you be failing better? In this episode of Coaching Revealed, we share an exclusive keynote address from Amy Edmondson, the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School. This keynote was originally presented at the Institute of Coaching's 2024 Coaching in Leadership and Healthcare Conference. In a hyper-competitive business landscape, the possibility of failure creates a dilemma for business leaders. Balancing cutting edge innovation while striving for perfection leaves seemingly zero room for error. Edmondson describes how intelligent failures are an opportunity, and trial and error is something for us all to attempt to embrace. In this episode of Coaching Revealed, Amy Edmondson covers:The three types of failureThe shortcomings of  workplace cultures that reject failureThe criteria for how to make intelligent failures The leadership practices for psychological safety and failure 

Twee derde van de Nederlandse organisaties houdt zich bezig met sociale en psychologische veiligheid op de werkvloer. Maar daarover bestaan veel misverstanden. Want niet alles wat onprettig voelt, is ook daadwerkelijk onveilig.‘Er is nog nooit iemand ontslagen omdat hij zijn mond hield,' zegt Amy Edmondson, professor aan de Harvard Business School. Waarom is het zo moeilijk om je uit te spreken op het werk? En hoe leidt een onveilige werkomgeving tot zogenoemde corporate silence?In deze aflevering spreekt Or Goldenberg met journalist Daphne van Paassen over de betekenis van veiligheid op de werkvloer.Lees ook het verhaal 'Comfortabele conflicten' in De Groene Amsterdammer. Zie het privacybeleid op https://art19.com/privacy en de privacyverklaring van Californië op https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Te gast zijn Rob Smits van Bureau Voor Durf en Laura Struijk en Josefien Kemper van Inspiratiebureau Struijk & Kemper en we spreken over leiden met moed. Inspiratiebronnen zijn de boeken van Rob zelf, Durf is te doen! en van Brene Brown, Dare to lead, waar Struijk & Kemper vanuit werken.Rob ontwikkelde zich van Amsterdamse lefgozer tot een oefenmeester in durven. De essentie van durven is voor hem in 1 woord dat je een durfdeuger moet leren zijn. Deuger, omdat je niet alleen je lef moet inzetten, dat nog maar een eerste impulskracht is, maar ook je moed en je waarden, waarvoor je in tweede instantie je denkkracht moet inzetten. Durf is deze beide krachten gebruiken. De impulskracht is een snelle trigger, die je moet leren waarnemen en vertragen tot een time-out, waarin je bewust vanuit je waarden kiest wat je uiteindelijk wilt en gaat doen.Fear the fear and do it anyway, zo vat Laura van Struijk & Kemper dit werken vanuit triggers samen. Ook zij en Josefien vinden dat je vanuit je why en waarden moet werken aan je leiderschap. Hun inspiratie vinden ze bij Brene Brown, die stelt dat je daarvoor de empathie en de moed moet hebben om te leren stoeien met kwetsbaarheid. Je moet als leider de verantwoordelijkheid leren nemen voor het herkennen van het potentieel in mensen en de moed hebben om hun potentieel te ontwikkelen. Belangrijk is dan het creëren van een cultuur van vertrouwen, waar Brene Brown de acroniem Braving voor gebruikt, of van psychologische veiligheid, een tweede concept van Struijk & Kemper, dat ze van Amy Edmondson hebben geleerd.Deze podcast is mede mogelijk gemaakt door schoolleidersopleiding ATTC, onderwijsadvies School Matters en rustplek De vallei van het goede leven.

Neste episódio especial do Podcast VendaMais, Karen Jardzwski volta do ATD 2025 — o maior evento de Treinamento e Desenvolvimento do mundo — trazendo novidades sobre o futuro da capacitação em vendas.Raul Candeloro e Marcelo Caetano conduzem essa conversa poderosa sobre o que realmente funciona (e o que está ultrapassado) quando o assunto é desenvolver times de comerciais com inteligência, propósito e impacto de verdade.

Send us a textIn this episode I sit down with renowned organizational designer and author Jurriaan Kamer to explore the high-impact concept of psychological safety—a key ingredient for healthy teams and effective leadership that often gets lip service but little follow-through.Psychological safety isn't just a buzzword—it's the bedrock of trust, collaboration, and innovation. So why do so many workplaces struggle with it?Together, we get into the heart of what psychological safety really means, the barriers that block it, and the leadership behaviors that foster (or destroy) it. If you're leading a team, supporting people through change, or working to create a culture of openness and accountability—this episode is your playbook.

Dr. Amy Edmondson is the Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School, a world-renowned expert on psychological safety, and the pioneering researcher who first identified and defined the concept. She is a #1 ranked management thinker by Thinkers50 and the award-winning author of several groundbreaking books including "The Fearless Organization" and her latest work "Right Kind of Wrong: Why Learning to Fail Can Teach Us to Thrive." Her research on team learning, psychological safety, and organizational innovation has transformed how leaders approach building high-performing teams across industries worldwide.Questions for personal reflection & journalingWhat specific moments in your life have shaped your relationship with failure, and how might these experiences be limiting your growth today? Consider the learning opportunities you might be missing by avoiding certain risks.What elements create psychological safety for you in your most comfortable environments, and how might you recreate these conditions in teams you lead or participate in?How do you typically respond when someone shares a mistake or failure with you, and what would a more curiosity-driven response look like in practice?What language patterns do you use when addressing setbacks with others, and how might you better separate events (failures, mistakes, losses) from a person's identity or worth?What specific questions could you introduce in your next team meeting to invite diverse perspectives, and how might these questions shift your team's dynamic toward greater psychological safety?Download my FREE 60 minute Mindset Masterclass at www.djhillier.com/masterclassDownload my FREE top 40 book list written by Mindset Advantage guests: www.djhillier.com/40booksSubscribe to our NEW YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@MindsetAdvantagePurchase a copy of my book: https://a.co/d/bGok9UdFollow me on Instagram: @deejayhillierConnect with me on my website: www.djhillier.com

We all work in teams, from families, to companies, and everything in between. So what's the secret to doing it better? This hour, TED speakers share surprising strategies for successful teamwork. Guests include activist Hajer Sharief, social psychologist Amy Edmondson and private equity investor Pete Stavros. Original broadcast date: September 20, 2024.TED Radio Hour+ subscribers now get access to bonus episodes, with more ideas from TED speakers and a behind the scenes look with our producers. A Plus subscription also lets you listen to regular episodes (like this one!) without sponsors. Sign-up at: plus.npr.org/tedLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Everyone makes mistakes. How do we learn from them? Lessons from the classroom, the Air Force, and the world's deadliest infectious disease. SOURCES:Will Coleman, founder and C.E.O. of Alto.Amy Edmondson, professor of leadership management at Harvard Business School.Babak Javid, physician-scientist and associate director of the University of California, San Francisco Center for Tuberculosis.Gary Klein, cognitive psychologist and pioneer in the field of naturalistic decision making.Theresa MacPhail, medical anthropologist and associate professor of science & technology studies at the Stevens Institute of Technology.Roy Shalem, lecturer at Tel Aviv University.Samuel West, curator and founder of The Museum of Failure. RESOURCES:"A Golf Club Urinal, Colgate Lasagna and the Bitter Fight Over the Museum of Failure," by Zusha Elinson (Wall Street Journal, 2025).Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well, by Amy Edmondson (2023).“You Think Failure Is Hard? So Is Learning From It,” by Lauren Eskreis-Winkler and Ayelet Fishbach (Perspectives on Psychological Science, 2022).“The Market for R&D Failures,” by Manuel Trajtenberg and Roy Shalem (SSRN, 2010).“Performing a Project Premortem,” by Gary Klein (Harvard Business Review, 2007). EXTRAS:"The Deadliest Disease in Human History," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2025).“How to Succeed at Failing,” series by Freakonomics Radio (2023).“Moncef Slaoui: ‘It's Unfortunate That It Takes a Crisis for This to Happen,'” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).

In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with Tobias Mayer—author, coach, and longtime voice in the Agile world—to explore the journey from his early discovery of XP (Extreme Programming) in 1997 all the way to today's debate around the death of Scrum. Tobias shares his personal transformation from developer to Scrum Master, his resistance to early XP, and how he learned great practices from developers he managed. We unpack his reflections on Agile's semantic drift, the role of Scrum Masters as change agents vs. bean counters, and what happens when teams do Agile without even knowing the Agile Manifesto.

Psychologische Sicherheit ist kein Kuschelkurs, sondern der Nährboden für mutiges Denken, ehrliches Feedback und starke Teamleistung. Amy Edmondson und Google zeigen: Sie steigert Innovationskraft, Lernfähigkeit und Performance um bis zu 35 %.Missverständnisse wie „Hier darf jeder tun, was er will“ blockieren echte Offenheit.Führung bedeutet, Räume zu schaffen, in denen man sich zeigen darf – auch mit Fehlern. Du erfährst, was psychologische Sicherheit wirklich ist – und was nicht.Und du bekommst konkrete Impulse, wie du sie in deinem Team stärken kannst.Viel Freude beim Hören! https://hbr.org/2025/05/what-people-get-wrong-about-psychological-safetyhttps://www.instagram.com/reel/DJ62PAFiSVE/?igsh=MXVlMWhibDlmYzR0Nähere Informationen zu Dr. Erika Maria Kleestorfer:Website: www.kleestorfer.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/erikamariakleestorfer/?hl=deLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-erika-maria-k-a18426/Buch: Purpose: How Decisions in Life are Shaping Leadership JourneysLove-Cards: https://produkte.kleestorfer.com/love-cardsEmail: office@kleestorfer.com Dieser Podcast wurde bearbeitet von:Denise Berger https://www.movecut.at

Giving up can be painful. That's why we need to talk about it. Today: stories about glitchy apps, leaky paint cans, broken sculptures — and a quest for the perfect bowl of ramen. SOURCES:John Boykin, website designer and failed paint can re-inventor.Angela Duckworth, host of No Stupid Questions, co-founder of Character Lab, and professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.Amy Edmondson, professor of leadership management at Harvard Business School.Helen Fisher, former senior research fellow at The Kinsey Institute and former chief science advisor to Match.com.Eric von Hippel, professor of technological innovation at M.I.T.'s Sloan School of Management.Jill Hoffman, founder and C.E.O. of Path 2 Flight.Gary Klein, cognitive psychologist and pioneer in the field of naturalistic decision making.Steve Levitt, host of People I (Mostly) Admire, co-author of the Freakonomics books, and professor of economics at the University of Chicago.Joseph O'Connell, artist.Mike Ridgeman, government affairs manager at the Wisconsin Bike Fed.Melanie Stefan, professor of physiology at Medical School Berlin.Travis Thul, vice president for Student Success and Engagement at Minnesota State University, Mankato. RESOURCES:“Data Snapshot: Tenure and Contingency in US Higher Education,” by Glenn Colby (American Association of University Professors, 2023).Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, by Angela Duckworth (2016).“Entrepreneurship and the U.S. Economy,” by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (2016).“A C.V. of Failures,” by Melanie Stefan (Nature, 2010).Ramen Now! official website. EXTRAS: “How to Succeed at Failing,” series by Freakonomics Radio (2023).“Annie Duke Thinks You Should Quit,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).“How Do You Know When It's Time to Quit?” by No Stupid Questions (2020).“Honey, I Grew the Economy,” by Freakonomics Radio (2019).“The Upside of Quitting,” by Freakonomics Radio (2011).

In medicine, failure can be catastrophic. It can also produce discoveries that save millions of lives. Tales from the front line, the lab, and the I.T. department. SOURCES:Amy Edmondson, professor of leadership management at Harvard Business School.Carole Hemmelgarn, co-founder of Patients for Patient Safety U.S. and director of the Clinical Quality, Safety & Leadership Master's program at Georgetown University.Gary Klein, cognitive psychologist and pioneer in the field of naturalistic decision making.Robert Langer, institute professor and head of the Langer Lab at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.John Van Reenen, professor at the London School of Economics. RESOURCES:Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well, by Amy Edmondson (2023).“Reconsidering the Application of Systems Thinking in Healthcare: The RaDonda Vaught Case,” by Connor Lusk, Elise DeForest, Gabriel Segarra, David M. Neyens, James H. Abernathy III, and Ken Catchpole (British Journal of Anaesthesia, 2022)."Estimates of preventable hospital deaths are too high, new study shows," by Bill Hathaway (Yale News, 2020).“Dispelling the Myth That Organizations Learn From Failure,” by Jeffrey Ray (SSRN, 2016).“A New, Evidence-Based Estimate of Patient Harms Associated With Hospital Care,” by John T. James (Journal of Patient Safety, 2013).To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health System, by the National Academy of Sciences (1999).“Polymers for the Sustained Release of Proteins and Other Macromolecules,” by Robert Langer and Judah Folkman (Nature, 1976).The Innovation and Diffusion Podcast, by John Van Reenen and Ruveyda Gozen. EXTRAS:"The Curious, Brilliant, Vanishing Mr. Feynman," series by Freakonomics Radio (2024).“Will a Covid-19 Vaccine Change the Future of Medical Research?” by Freakonomics Radio (2020).“Bad Medicine, Part 3: Death by Diagnosis,” by Freakonomics Radio (2016).

In their pursuit of heightened productivity, organizations are leaving little room for failure. However, failures are an inevitable part of the innovation process and often serve as a precursor to breakthroughs. By solely focusing on productivity, organizations may be missing out on valuable opportunities for innovation that could propel them forward. In the worst-case scenarios, a failure-adverse climate can lead employees to hide concerns or problems, which can lead to potentially catastrophic issues. Amy Edmondson, the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School and author of "Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well," shares her expertise on the Talent Angle podcast, offering insights on how organizations should shift their mindset toward failure and embrace it as a catalyst for growth and improvement. Amy C. Edmondson, the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School, is a management scholar best known for her research on psychological safety and team learning. She has been recognized by the biannual Thinkers50 global ranking of management thinkers since 2011 and was ranked No. 1 in 2021 and 2023. She is the author of eight books, including her most recent book, Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well, and more than 100 academic articles.   Jessica Knight is a vice president of research in the Gartner HR practice. She leads research teams to identify best practices and new opportunities to address HR executives' most urgent challenges. Her areas of focus include employee experience, organizational culture, change management and the future of work.

We tend to think of tragedies as a single terrible moment, rather than the result of multiple bad decisions. Can this pattern be reversed? We try — with stories about wildfires, school shootings, and love. SOURCES:Amy Edmondson, professor of leadership management at Harvard Business School.Helen Fisher, former senior research fellow at The Kinsey Institute and former chief science advisor to Match.com.Ed Galea, founding director of the Fire Safety Engineering Group at the University of Greenwich.Gary Klein, cognitive psychologist and pioneer in the field of naturalistic decision making.David Riedman, founder of the K-12 School Shooting Database.Aaron Stark, head cashier at Lowe's and keynote speaker.John Van Reenen, professor at the London School of Economics. RESOURCES:"Ethan Crumbley: Parents of Michigan school gunman sentenced to at least 10 years," by Brandon Drenon (New York Times, 2024).Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well, by Amy Edmondson (2023)."How Fire Turned Lahaina Into a Death Trap," by Nicholas Bogel-Burroughs, Serge F. Kovaleski, Shawn Hubler, and Riley Mellen (The New York Times, 2023).The Violence Project: How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic, by Jillian Peterson and James Densley (2021)."I Was Almost A School Shooter," by Aaron Stark (TEDxBoulder, 2018). EXTRAS: "Is Perfectionism Ruining Your Life?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Why Did You Marry That Person?" by Freakonomics Radio (2022)."What Do We Really Learn From Failure?" by No Stupid Questions (2021)."How to Fail Like a Pro," by Freakonomics Radio (2019)."Failure Is Your Friend," by Freakonomics Radio (2014).

Jeff Wetzler, co-CEO of Transcend and former Chief Learning Officer at Teach for America, joins us to share his journey in unlocking human potential through the power of inquiry. With a rich background in transforming educational landscapes, Jeff discusses his book "Ask: Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of the People Around You." Our conversation explores how leaders can use powerful questioningtechniques to uncover hidden insights within themselves and within their teams, fostering a collaborative and innovative environment that drives decision-making and shared understanding.Curiosity takes center stage as we unpack the concept of evidence-based leadership, where science meets real-world application. Jeff and I shine a light on the unspoken thoughts and challenges encountered in professional settings and the valuable insights that can be gained when these thoughts are communicated clearly and openly. We emphasizethe significance of creating a learning environment where honest feedback is encouraged, allowing mutual learning and problem-solving to flourish. Drawing from expert insights, including those of Amy Edmondson, we discuss strategies for crafting questions that genuinely seek to uncover deeper understanding.The transformative power of open-ended questions is a recurring theme throughout our discussion, offering listeners a tool to foster authentic dialogue and inclusivity. By contrasting open-ended questions with leading ones, we illustrate how genuine exploration can lead to higher-quality and more creative solutions. We highlight techniques for rekindling innate curiosity and fostering a more inquisitive mindset, encouraging a dynamic and innovative organizational culture. Whether you're a leader looking to enhance team dynamics or simply curious about the benefits of inquiry over advocacy, this episode offers a wealth of insights into harnessing the power of questions.What You'll Learn- How to utilize the power of inquiry to enhance leadership effectiveness.- Techniques for unlocking a team's full potential through curiosity.- The impact of masterful questioning on innovation within a team.- Ways in which open-ended exploration fosters inclusivity.Podcast Timestamps(00:00) - Unlocking Human Potential Through Questions(09:51) – How to Use Questions to Enhance Communication(19:42) – Curiosity: A Crucial Skill for Life and Leadership(33:24) - The Power of Open-Ended QuestionsKEYWORDSPositive Leadership, Unlocking Human Potential, The Power of Inquiry, Evidence-Based Leadership, Curiosity, The Art of Asking Questions, Open-Ended Questions, Organizational Behaviour, Creating A Learning Environment, Improved Decision-Making, Effective Communication, Leading with Vulnerability, Inquisitive Mindset, Questioning Techniques, Authentic Dialogue, Innovative Solutions, CEO Success

Is your teamwork not working? In this episode of HBR's advice podcast, Dear HBR:, cohosts Alison Beard and Dan McGinn answer your questions with the help of Amy Edmondson, a professor at Harvard Business School and the author of The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth. They talk through what to do when your team isn't communicating, doesn't respect its leader, or has one employee who's causing problems. Key episode topics include: managing teams, managing difficult people, managing conflict, team dysfunction, organizational culture, communication styles, feedback, trust, employee performance management, leadership styles, leadership Listen to the original Dear HBR: episode: Dysfunctional TeamsFind more episodes of Dear HBR:.Discover 100 years of Harvard Business Review articles, case studies, podcasts, and more at HBR.org.]]>

Kristen and Mike kick off their new Buzzword Breakdown series by tackling psychological safety, a term often referenced in leadership discussions without clear explanation. Created by Harvard professor Amy Edmondson, psychological safety is the belief that you won't be punished for speaking up with ideas, questions, or concerns. Research shows it's the #1 predictor of high-performing teams - more important than who's on the team. Despite its importance, many misconceptions exist around what psychological safety actually means and how to create it. Whether you lead a team or are part of one, understanding this concept can transform your workplace relationships and help everyone do their best work.Highlights:Introduction of the new Buzzword Breakdown series formatAmy Edmondson coined "psychological safety" in 1999 while researching hospital teamsPsychological safety is a team concept that predicts high performance (Google's Project Aristotle)Myth: It's about being nice (Reality: It's about candor with respect)Myth: You can declare a space "safe" (Reality: Actions create it)Myth: It's a luxury (Reality: It's essential for effective teams)Signs of low safety: silence in meetings, blame culture, fear of failureSigns of high safety: challenging ideas without fear, open discussion of mistakesLeaders create it through: admitting uncertainty, sharing lessons from mistakes, thanking people for speaking upLinks & Resources Mentioned:The Fearless Organization by Amy EdmondsonAmy Edmondson on LinkedInHBR: What Is Psychological Safety?HBR: What People Get Wrong About Psychological SafetyMcKinsey: What is Psychological Safety?Previous Love and Leadership episodes:#37 Workplace Buzzwords #31 Motivating Employees#38 How to Win Friends and Influence People#17 Interview with Rebecca YangPodcast Website: www.loveandleadershippod.comInstagram: @loveleaderpodFollow us on LinkedIn!Kristen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristenbsharkey/ Mike: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-s-364970111/Learn more about Kristen's leadership coaching and facilitation services: http://www.emboldify.com

Episode #349 // Psychological safety is a critical part of a high-performance culture. Unless people feel comfortable contributing their ideas and challenging the vocal majority, the team will easily slip into the complacency of groupthink. But psychological safety is often misunderstood, which is why we produced this mythbuster episode to debunk some of the commonly held misconceptions.I talk, from two different perspectives, about how the term ‘psychological safety' has been misappropriated: first from my own experience, then from a recent article by Amy Edmondson, who pioneered the concept.Most importantly, I give you the one practical step you need to take to put your team culture on the road to psychological safety.————————

Taavet Hinrikus, the co-founder of Wise, one of the world's biggest fintech firms, gives advice on forming and running teams. Andrew Palmer learns the secrets of teamwork in Afghanistan, Mumbai and Silicon Valley; and Amy Edmondson of Harvard Business School explains how to foster psychological safety.Boss Class season one is free for a limited time. Season two will appear weekly starting May 12th. To hear new episodes, subscribe to Economist Podcasts+. https://subscribenow.economist.com/podcasts-plusIf you're already a subscriber to The Economist, you have full access to all our shows as part of your subscription. For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Taavet Hinrikus, the co-founder of Wise, one of the world's biggest fintech firms, gives advice on forming and running teams. Andrew Palmer learns the secrets of teamwork in Afghanistan, Mumbai and Silicon Valley; and Amy Edmondson of Harvard Business School explains how to foster psychological safety.Boss Class season one is free for a limited time. Season two will appear weekly starting May 12th. To hear new episodes, subscribe to Economist Podcasts+. https://subscribenow.economist.com/podcasts-plusIf you're already a subscriber to The Economist, you have full access to all our shows as part of your subscription. For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account.

Episode 1136 – Blame, Brains & the Behavioral BeefOn today's Rated R Safety Show, Jay Allen dives headfirst into the philosophical (and occasionally theatrical) debate tearing through the safety world right now.It started with a bold session at the Western Conference on Safety—“Investigations Done Differently,” featuring Jeff Lyth and Bruce Jackson. But when a longtime behavior-based safety veteran publicly questioned whether HOP (Human and Organizational Performance) has any evidence of reducing incidents or injuries… the floodgates opened.So today, we talk about it.Is HOP just razzmatazz—or is it the necessary evolution of how we treat error, people, and performance?Jay pulls receipts from:Amy Edmondson's work on psychological safety

Isabel Berwick is a journalist, podcaster, and advocate for workplace evolution. Having navigated the changing landscape of media and corporate culture, Isabel is dedicated to sharing her expertise on the future of work and career development and re-defining what ambition and fulfilment mean today. In this episode, we discuss the post-pandemic workplace, important distinctions between management and leadership, and the value of creativity. Isabel also shares insights from her upcoming book, "The Future-Proof Career", which offers insights into finding your purpose and achieving success in today's rapidly changing job market. As the host of the Financial Times's acclaimed podcast "Working It", and the hugely successful newsletter Isabel has been a leading voice in discussions about workplace dynamics and career progression, drawing on her extensive experience and conversations with industry leaders.  But Isabel believes that success isn't just about climbing the corporate ladder; it's about finding purpose and balance throughout one's working life. Her insights are invaluable for understanding the challenges we face in modern work environments. Check out her ‘Book for Emmeline' recommendation, as well as some of the other wonderful books and resources we discuss in this episode:  Book for Emmeline Recommendation:  The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster https://www.amazon.co.uk/Phantom-Tollbooth-Essential-Modern-Classics  Other books and resources:  Ambition Redefined by Kathryn Sollmann  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ambition-Redefined-Corner-Office-Instead/dp/1473679095  Arthur Brooks at The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/author/arthur-c-brooks/ Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bullshit-Jobs/dp/B07CTT2DT3/  The Fearless Organisation by Amy Edmondson https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fearless-Organization-Psychological-Workplace-Innovation/dp/1119477247  

Adrienne is digging into the Power Hour archives and today's episode comes from 2023. dAmy Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School. Renowned for her world-leading research into the concept of psychological safety, Edmondson has been named by Thinkers50 as the most influential management thinker in the world.In her new book, Right Kind of Wrong, Amy Edmondson - the world's most influential organisational psychologist - reveals how we get failure wrong, and how to get it right. She draws on a lifetime's research into the science of 'psychological safety' to show that the most successful cultures are those in which you can fail openly, without your mistakes being held against you.She introduces the three archetypes of failure - simple, complex and intelligent - and explains how to harness the revolutionary potential of the good ones (and eliminate the bad). And she tells vivid stories ranging from the history of open heart surgery to the Columbia Space Shuttle disaster, all to ask a simple, provocative question: What if it is only by learning to fail that we can hope to truly succeed? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of the Scrum.org Community Podcast, guest host Lindsay Velecina is joined by Professional Scrum Trainer Joanna Plaskonka to answer lingering questions from her recent webinar on psychological safety in Scrum Teams. Joanna shares practical insights on measuring psychological safety using Amy Edmondson's model, handling micromanagement, and fostering safe environments even in challenging cultures. From using behavioral questions and action learning to creating psychologically safe retrospectives, this episode is packed with actionable ideas for Scrum Masters, leaders, and teams seeking high performance through trust and openness! 

What if healing isn't the same as curing? Dr. Amita Kalaichandran draws from her unique background in conventional medicine, public health, integrative approaches, and journalism to reshape our understanding of true wellness in ways that might surprise you.At the heart of this conversation lies a powerful distinction: while Western medicine excels at curing (removing disease), healing represents something far more profound—a return to wholeness that integrates illness and challenges into our lives. Amitha thoughtfully explains why even those facing terminal conditions can find healing, creating meaning and wholeness right through the end of life. This perspective challenges our cultural tendency to view death as simply "losing the battle" with disease.The discussion moves into fascinating territory exploring psychological safety in healthcare settings. Drawing from Amy Edmondson's groundbreaking research, we discover how the ability to speak up without fear creates not just better patient outcomes, but also nurtures innovation and prevents provider burnout. This concept extends beyond hospitals into every workplace, where a sense of belonging and voice directly impacts both individual health and organizational success.Perhaps most intriguing is Amitha's nuanced take on psychedelics as healing tools. She explains how substances like psilocybin and MDMA might work on the brain's default mode network to "untangle the knots" of fossilized thought patterns where traditional therapies sometimes fail. The conversation acknowledges both the promising research and necessary cautions while suggesting that these compounds might offer flexibility in thinking that many of us lose as we age.Don't miss this rich exploration of healing that weaves together cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, and practical insights for anyone seeking a more integrated approach to wellness. Subscribe now and join us in reimagining what healing truly means for body, mind, and spirit.Free sample chapter -Lies I Taught In Medical School :https://www.robertlufkinmd.com/lies/Our sponsors:Complete Metabolic Heart Scan (20% off with 'LUFKIN20') https://www.innerscopic.com/ Fasting Mimicking Diet (20% off) https://prolonlife.com/Lufkin At home blood testing (15% off) https://pathlongevity.com/Mimio Health (15% off with 'LUFKIN') https://mimiohealth.sjv.io/c/5810114/2745519/30611 *** CONNECT***Web: https://robertlufkinmd.com/X: https://x.com/robertlufkinmdYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/robertLufkinmdInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/robertlufkinmd/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertlufkinmd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/robertlufkinmd Threads: ...

Send us a textIf your school avoids hard conversations, you don't have belonging. You have politeness.We confuse being nice with building belonging. But “nice” often means silence, avoidance, and surface-level smiles. Comfort isn't the same as safety. Harvard researcher Amy Edmondson coined the term psychological safety—the ability to speak up, take risks, and be vulnerable without fear.In “nice” cultures, people feel comfortable... but not safe. Real belonging requires vulnerability, not just harmony. Listen to this episode to find out how to move your culture from polite silence to real belonging—and why discomfort might be the missing piece.  Want more on this? 

In this final episode of the podcast before beginning his research sabbatical, your host Dr. Nathan Reiger welcomes high performing teams expert and scholar Amy Edmonson. She is a Professor of Leadership at Harvard Business School, author, and pioneer in the role of psychological safety in high performing teams. This conversation explores the science of failure and insights from Amy's new book Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well, including the empowering components of compassion, vulnerability, and intelligent failure.    Key Takeaways: [3:05] What piqued Amy's interest in the topic of failure?  [4:15] The three main kinds of failure.  [6:12] What role does psychological safety play in failing well?  [9:56] Compassionate accountability is essential in conflict.  [11:32] The relationship between trust and conflict.  [12:02] Compassion mindset is essential in failing well.  [15:55] High performing teams don't always make more errors, but they report them quickly.  [17:55] What makes a failure intelligent?  [21:36] Failure is an option, not trying is not an option.  [22:44] Why should we acknowledge vulnerability to self and others?   [28:03] Amy's favorite visuals and tales of failure from Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well.  [32:45] The potential role of AI in the face of complex failure.  [36:48] Amy's response to massive failure, such as plane crashes.  [38:30] Amy is a coping role model for failing well.    Mentioned in this episode: The Compassion Mindset Compassionate Accountability: How Leaders Build Connection and Get Results, Nate Regier Visit Next-Element   Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well by Amy Edmonson  Amy Edmondson on LinkedIn   The Compassionate Accountability Podcast is produced in partnership with Podfly Productions.   

In The Parlor Room's season two finale, host Chris Linnane shares his favorite questions and answers from his conversations with Harvard Business School faculty, including Christina Wallace, Felix Oberholzer-Gee, Amy Edmondson, Sunil Gupta, V.G. Narayanan, Nancy Koehn, and Anthony Mayo. Tune in for their insights into marketing, the future of work, psychological safety, and more.  Catch up on Season 2 of The Parlor Room: Amy Edmondson on Building High-Performing Teams: https://hbs.me/ade6yb9d Sunil Gupta on Data-Driven Digital Marketing Strategies: https://hbs.me/3j3jcpmw Anthony Mayo on What Makes an Effective Leader: https://hbs.me/3ttp4c56  Christina Wallace on Building an Entrepreneurial Mindset: https://hbs.me/2p87t4j8  Felix Oberholzer-Gee on the Frameworks of Business Strategy: https://hbs.me/yc3f5jb3  Nancy Koehn on How Crisis Brings Out Extraordinary Leadership: https://hbs.me/ycksfcds  V.G. Narayanan on How Accounting Connects the Business World: https://hbs.me/mry92699  Watch The Parlor Room on YouTube: https://hbs.me/4j99nbwc

Business school professor and author Amy Edmondson shares her views on how we can make our workplace more productive, enriching, and positive for everyone.  By creating an environment with “psychological safety,” Amy says that organizations allow people to do their best work by not fearing to make the “right kinds” of mistakes and/or speaking up when things go wrong. Order Amy's book Right Kind of Wrong Chapters:01:08 Introduction of Amy Edmondson Host Bill Burke introduces guest Amy Edmondson, a renowned professor at Harvard Business School, known for her work on psychological safety.06:50 The Role of Managers in Psychological Safety The conversation shifts to the role of managers in understanding human behavior and fostering an environment where employees feel motivated to contribute 09:15 Hierarchy and Its Challenges The discussion delves into the impact of organizational hierarchy on psychological safety, with Edmondson explaining how it can inhibit open communication.  12:25 Creating a Safe Environment for Mistakes Edmondson discusses the importance of allowing employees to make mistakes and learn from them as a pathway to innovation.  16:30 Navigating Political Divisions at Work The conversation touches on the challenges of political divisions in the workplace and the importance of maintaining professionalism.  18:01 The Impact of Remote Work on Culture Edmondson reflects on how remote and hybrid work environments affect psychological safety and workplace culture. She discusses the need for face-to-face interactions to foster relationships and connectedness among team members. 23:41 Exploring the Right Kind of Wrong The focus shifts to Edmondson's recent book, ‘Right Kind of Wrong,' where she explores the concept of failing well.  28:40 Understanding Different Types of Failures In this chapter, we explore the distinctions between basic, complex, and intelligent failures, emphasizing the importance of recognizing these differences. The conversation highlights how basic failures stem from single mistakes, while complex failures arise from multiple contributing factors. 31:50 The Value of Intelligent Failures The discussion shifts to intelligent failures, which are the results of thoughtful experiments aimed at innovation. The speakers discuss how organizations can learn from these failures and even budget for them in research and development. 33:49 Learning from Failure: A Difficult Process This chapter delves into the challenges of learning from failure, emphasizing the emotional aversion many people have towards it.  35:29 Reframing Failure: Insights from Ted Turner The conversation highlights Ted Turner's perspective on failure, illustrating how he framed losses as learning opportunities. This chapter discusses the cultural shift needed to embrace mistakes as part of the journey towards success. 36:31 The Role of Optimism in Leadership In this chapter, the speakers explore the significance of optimism in effective leadership, contrasting it with blind optimism. They introduce the Stockdale Paradox, emphasizing the balance between maintaining hope while facing harsh realities. 41:49 Optimism vs. Realism in Leadership The discussion continues on the interplay between optimism and realism in leadership, highlighting research findings on how these traits affect team dynamics. The speakers share insights from their studies during the COVID-19 pandemic, illustrating the importance of transparent communication. 44:08 The Future of Business Leadership As the conversation wraps up, the speakers reflect on the qualities of young leaders entering the business world.  

Ethan Kross: Shift Ethan Kross is the author of the national bestseller Chatter and one of the world's leading experts on emotion regulation. An award-winning professor in the University of Michigan's top-ranked Psychology Department and its Ross School of Business, he is the Director of the Emotion and Self-Control Laboratory. He's the author of the new book, Shift: Managing Your Emotions--So They Don't Manage You*. Being a leader means that our emotions get triggered, often many times a day. While none of us can avoid those triggers, how we respond to them can make all the difference. In this conversation, Ethan and I explore his research on how to better manage our emotions. Key Points We often assume that approaching emotions is universally good and avoiding emotions is universally bad. Reality is much more nuanced. We can strategically use our senses to modulate our feelings. Music is a simple and powerful way to manage emotions proactively. Use playlists that align with the mood you wish to create. Using distancing language when talking to yourself (i.e. saying “you” instead of “I”) can help you regulate. Time shifting may help regulate your emotions. Ask yourself, how will I feel about this in a week? A month? A year? Different tools work for different people at different times. Experiment to help you determine what works best for you. Resources Mentioned Shift: Managing Your Emotions--So They Don't Manage You by Ethan Kross Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes How to Find Helpful Advisors, with Ethan Kross (episode 516) How to Grow From Your Errors, with Amy Edmondson (episode 663) How to Handle High-Pressure Situations, with Dan Dworkis (episode 701) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.

In this second special episode of season two bonus content, host Chris Linnane shares exclusive, never-before-heard clips from his conversations with Harvard Business School faculty members. Tune in to hear Amy Edmondson, Anthony Mayo, Felix Oberholzer-Gee, and Nancy Koehn discuss leadership, strategy, and resilience. Amy Edmondson on Building High-Performing Teams: https://hbs.me/ade6yb9d Anthony Mayo on What Makes an Effective Leader: https://hbs.me/3ttp4c56  Felix Oberholzer-Gee on the Frameworks of Business Strategy: https://hbs.me/yc3f5jb3  Nancy Koehn on How Crisis Brings Out Extraordinary Leadership: https://hbs.me/ycksfcds 

What if the way you think about failure has been holding you back? What if reframing failure could be a major breakthrough to unlocking your potential?Today's guest is Dr. Amy Edmondson, a Harvard Business School professor and one of the world's foremost authorities on leadership, psychological safety, and the transformative power of failure. Her research has redefined how teams thrive, how innovation happens, and how individuals can unlock their full potential.In this episode, we dive into Amy's framework for failure—how understanding the difference between basic, complex, and intelligent failures can reframe our approach to learning and growth. We also explore the tension between perfectionism and ambition, the significance of purpose in navigating setbacks, and why true belonging is rooted in authentic connection rather than seeking approval.If you're ready to rethink failure and discover how it can be your greatest teacher, then tune in for this insightful episode with Amy Edmondson.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Is Agile still relevant in today’s fast-paced world? Brian and Joshua Kerievsky reveal the four game-changing principles of Modern Agile that prioritize safety, empowerment, and continuous value delivery. Overview In this episode, Brian Milner sits down with Joshua Kerievsky, a pioneer in the Agile community and the creator of Modern Agile. They discuss how Agile practices have evolved, the critical role of safety and empowerment, and how to deliver value continuously in today’s fast-paced world. Don’t miss these insights into creating better teams, products, and results through simplicity and experimentation. References and resources mentioned in the show: Joshua Kerievsky Industrial Logic Joy of Agility by Joshua Kerievsky Modern Agile #33 Mob Programming with Woody Zuill #51: The Secrets of Team Safety with Julie Chickering Badass: Making Users Awesome by Kathy Sierra The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg The Lean Startup by Eric Ries Experimentation Matter: Unlocking the Potential of New Technologies for Innovation by Stefan H. Thomke Agile For Leaders Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Accurate Agile Planning Course Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Joshua Kerievsky is the founder and CEO of Industrial Logic and author of Joy of Agility. An early pioneer of Extreme Programming, Lean Software Development, and Lean Startup, Joshua is passionate about helping people achieve genuine agility through principle-based approaches like Modern Agile. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back. And this is another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm here as I always am. I am Brian Milner and today I am joined by Joshua Kerievsky and really excited to have Joshua here with us. Welcome in Joshua. Joshua Kerievsky (00:16) Thank you so much, Brian. Happy to be here. Brian (00:19) Very excited for Joshua to be here. Joshua's been around for a while. He's been doing this for a long time. He said, you know, when we were talking before, and he's been involved with Agile before, it was called Agile. And, you know, that probably tells you all you need to know there. But a couple other things here about him, just so that you kind of can place him a little bit. His company is Industrial Logic, Inc. and he's the CEO and founder of that company. He has a book called Joy of Agility that's out there that I highly recommend. It's a really great book. And he's also closely associated with something that maybe you've been aware of, maybe you've heard of, maybe you haven't, but something called Modern Agile. And that's what I thought we'd focus on here for our discussion is really to try to understand a little bit about it. especially for those of you, maybe you haven't heard of it, haven't been around it before. So... Why don't we start there, Joshua? Tell us a little bit about what was the need that was trying to be filled with something like modern Agile. Joshua Kerievsky (01:19) Well, it goes back to a conference I attended in Prague back in around 2015. And I was giving a speech, a keynote speech there, and that ended. And then I went and said, well, I'm going to go join the OpenSpace. And I was just looking at what people were talking about at the OpenSpace. And at that point in time, I had already been experimenting with a ton of stuff that just kind of different from what we had been doing 10 years earlier or even later than that. I mean, just this was new things that we were doing, whether it was continuous deployment or ideas from lean startup or ideas from the pop and dykes and lean concepts applied to agility or just a lot of things that were just different. And none of the sessions I was seeing in the open space seemed to be talking about any of that stuff, like giving up story points or moving away from sprints until continuous flow. just nothing was being talked about. So I just said, well, I'm going to host a session, and I'll call it, I don't know, a modern Agile. And so that's as far as I got in terms of thinking about the name. I just wanted to run a session where we could talk about, there's a lot of new things we're doing that kind of display some of the older ideas. And they're very useful, I found. So the session ended up getting a lot of attention. 60, 70 people showed up there. So we had a big group. And it was well received. People were fascinated by the stuff that they weren't aware of. And so I then repeated this open space event in Berkeley. Like a month later, was Agile Open Door Cal in Berkeley was running and did it again. And again, there was tremendous interest. in this, so much so that I decided to write a blog and wrote the blog and started getting more conversations happening. And that sort of began the movement of describing this thing called Modern Agile. And it took a few twists and turns in the beginning, but it wasn't sort of, I guess, if anything, I felt like Agile needed to be a little more simple. in terms of what we were explaining, because it was starting to get very complex with frameworks, enterprise frameworks coming along like safe and just too many moving parts. And so what ended up happening is I wrote some things and people started to notice, there's kind of like four things there that are really valuable. One of them was The names changed a little bit over time. But anyway, what ended up was four principles emerged. And that really became modern Agile. Brian (03:58) That's awesome. just for listeners here, I've pitched attending conferences in the past. If you've listened to this podcast, you've heard me say that, and I'll create things come out of that. And here's an example, right? This is something that was open space discussion. Open space, if you're not familiar with that, at conferences, can, if there's an open space day or a couple of days, then anyone can present any topic they want. And whoever shows up is who shows up. And this one got a lot of attention. And a movement grew from this open space topic, which is awesome. So let's talk. You mentioned there's four principles here. And I like the distinction here we're making also between the frameworks and the practices versus the cultural aspects or the philosophy behind it. And returning to those roots a little bit more from what Agile originally was. So you mentioned there's kind of four areas of this. Let's walk our way through those. I know the first one, or one of the first ones here is make people awesome. So help us understand, what do you mean by make people awesome? Joshua Kerievsky (04:59) Probably the most controversial of principles, because you'll get people coming along saying, wait a minute, people are already awesome. What are you talking about? And it comes from my, I'm a big fan of Kathy Sierra. And her blog was incredible. And her book, she wrote a book called Badass, Making Users Awesome. And in her book, she was really wonderfully clear about Brian (05:07) You Joshua Kerievsky (05:24) that teams that build products ought to focus on the user of the products more than the product itself. In other words, she would say, don't try to create the world's best camera. Try to create the world's best photographers. Big subtle difference there. Like that is focusing so much on empowering the users, making them awesome at their work or whatever they're doing, whether it's art or accounting or whatever, whatever your product does, how can you give them something that elevates their skills, that gets them to a point of awesomeness faster? And that's what she was talking about. So I thought, what a wonderful message. And initially, I used language like make users awesome. you know, having been an entrepreneur myself and created products and sold them and You learn a heck of a lot when you make your own product. And we've made several products over the years at Industrial Logic, probably the most successful of which was our e-learning software. And that has taught me so many, so many lessons. One of them is you have to serve an ecosystem of people. You can't just make your main user awesome. What about the person who's buying the software? How do you make them awesome in terms of helping them buy something that's going to get used? If they buy your e-learning and they never use it, they've wasted a lot of money. So we've got to make sure that their reputation is intact because they made an excellent investment and it got used and it got into valuable, it created value in the company. So how do I make the buyer awesome? How do I make the person that like rolls out the licenses to people awesome? How do I make their experience awesome? How do I make my colleagues awesome so that we love what we're doing and really enjoy working together? So it kind of morphed from make users awesome to make people awesome. And it's so expanded. If anything, we set the bar higher. And all of the principles of modern agile are like unachievable. They're all kind of high bars, right? But they're the goal that we go towards. So that really is it. It's about creating Brian (07:23) Ha Joshua Kerievsky (07:35) you know, wonderful, you know, the in Great Britain, they use awesome kind of sarcastically sometimes, right? They'll say, well, that's awesome. You know, and so for them, it would be brilliant. You know, I thought of making an English version. We have many translations of modern agile, and I thought of making an English version, which would be a proper British English version, make people brilliant. But it's meant to be to empower folks to give them something. And it's so it is. Brian (07:43) Ha You Joshua Kerievsky (08:04) It does have a product focus in the sense of we're typically building a system or a product that someone's going to use and it's going to give them skills they didn't have before or abilities they didn't have before that are going to be very valuable. Brian (08:18) Yeah, I love that. And there's a sort of a servant nature to that servant leaders, not servant leadership as much, but servant nature of I'm serving these people and how do I, how do I serve them in a way that really empowers them? Kind of reminds me of like, you know, the, the great principle with, with dev ops of just, know, if I can, if I can empower the developers to be able to do these things on their own. And so they don't need someone else to come and check the box and do everything for them. You're making them awesome. You're empowering them to be more than they were otherwise. Joshua Kerievsky (08:54) Yes, yes, absolutely. I I think we've seen a history in the software field of a lot of tools coming along and helping. It's not just tools, it's also methods as well. I mean, I'm entirely grateful to the Agile software development movement because it helped nudge everything towards a far better way of working and to make us more awesome at our craft. yeah, you have to have a North Star though. If you're going to build something, You have to know, what are we going for here? What are we shooting for? And with Cathy's influence, again, it's not so much make the greatest product in the world. It's, that focus on the users, the people who are going to be using the work, using the product. Brian (09:34) That's really good. Let's talk about the second one then on my list here, the make safety a prerequisite. What was the point here behind this principle? Joshua Kerievsky (09:40) Yes. So starting probably around 2011 or so, I could not stand going to the Agile Conference anymore. It had just become too commercial and too filled with just people hocking stuff. And it just was bothering me too much. I couldn't go. So I ended up going to South by Southwest, which is an Brian (09:54) You Joshua Kerievsky (10:09) Enormous conference tens of thousands of people show up So it'd be 20,000 30,000 40,000 people showing up for these for this event, which is musical film technology just it's just wild and I came across this book by Charles Duhigg called the power of habit. He was there that year and In that book. Well, first of all that particular year was 2012 that I went my first year there it poured The rain, it was every day, it was unusual for that time, but it was just like pouring rain. So what could you do? I bought some books and I was sitting there in my room reading them. And I'm reading this book, The Power of Habit, and I come across this chapter called The Ballad of Paul O'Neill. Now who the heck's Paul O'Neill? Well, it turns out Paul O'Neill is this incredible guy, a complete business maverick. He ended up becoming the treasury secretary under Bush and not. in 2000 for a short period of time, but that's another story. And he ran Alcoa for about 13 or 14 years. And so the Ballot of Paul O'Neill is very much about what he did at Alcoa to turn the company around. And in essence, you could say he made safety a prerequisite. That safety was his guiding light in turning that company around, which meant left people empowered to do all kinds of things. So it went way beyond safety, but started there. And it's an incredible story. I've written about it in Joy of Agility. I got so into Paul O'Neill that I ended up interviewing his main lieutenant. And then I got a chance to interview him a couple of times. the man's a genius. He passed away a few years back. Absolute genius. this concept of safety started to really pull at me in the sense that I felt, first of all, extreme programming, and I'm a big practitioner of extreme programming, brings a tremendous amount of safety to software development. It may not be as explicit in saying safety, safety, safety. When you look at extreme programming, doesn't really talk about safety, but it's implicit. And these days, Kent Beck's much more vocal about, you One of his missions is to make software development safer for geeks. But safety to me is almost like I found my home. Like safety was something that, what I learned through Paul O'Neill was that it's a doorway to excellence. And he transformed a hundred year old company with safety. I would complain about companies we were working with that were 25 years old and had an embedded culture. Like, how are we gonna change this company? But safety started to be this thing that I hadn't really thought enough about, and making it explicit opened up a lot of doors, right? And I became very interested in the work of Amy Edmondson, who's extremely famous today, but back then she was not so famous. And huge fan of hers. I, you know, I can email her and she'll email me back and she wrote a nice thing about my book. So. She has done some incredible work there. And so when we talk about safety in modern agile, it's psychological safety. It's financial safety. It's any of the safeties. There are many safeties that we could talk about. And it looks at all of them, right? It's brand safety, software safety in terms of security. you know, of the software and on and on and on. So make safety prerequisite is vast and big in terms of what we're trying to do there. Making it a prerequisite means it's not an afterthought and it's not a priority that shifts with the winds. It is permanent. It is something that we know we have to have in place. And it's very, very hard to achieve. Just like make people awesome is hard to achieve. Boy, is make safety a prerequisite difficult. Brian (13:43) Hmm. Yeah, I love Amy Edmondson's work as well. I'm just kind of curious. does the safety kind of inclusive of things like quality as well? Do you intend that to be part of what you mean by safety? Joshua Kerievsky (14:11) Well, mean, to the extent that it makes it safer to do good software development. So if bugs are happening all the time, you can't make people awesome, typically if you don't have quality. If you have really poor quality, nobody's being made awesome. They're experiencing all kinds of problems with your product. So make people awesome and make safety a prerequisite are very much tied together. That is, there is no real excellence without safety. You could think you're having an excellent experience, so that all of a sudden there's a major problem, and boy, are you unhappy. So they really go hand in hand. You could have the most incredible restaurant, and then one day you've got food poisoning happening. Great, no one's come to your restaurant. So you will not make anyone awesome if you don't make safety a prerequisite, and quality is part of that. Brian (14:57) Awesome. Well, let's move on to the next one then, because the next category is one that just resonates with me a lot. Experiment and learn rapidly. What was kind of the thought behind this one? Joshua Kerievsky (15:06) Yeah, and this is one where it that's shorthand, if you will, because you can only fit so many words on a wheel there. But it's important to know that that really means experiment rapidly and learn rapidly. And that comes a lot out of it in the influences of something like Lean Startup. I'm a huge fan of that book and of Eric's work, Eric Reese's work. Brian (15:13) Ha Joshua Kerievsky (15:29) And the fact that we can experiment rapidly and learn rapidly rather than just building everything and then learning slowly. Right? How can we do cheap experiments quickly to decide what's important to work on and what isn't? Let's not build stuff nobody wants. Let's find more time with our customers and understand their needs better so we can build the right things that make them awesome. In other words, and a lot of these are interconnected. In many respects, modern Agile is a Venn diagram. ideally want all four principles to be overlapping. And right there in that middle is where you really want to be. Not easy. But experimenting, learning rapidly, yeah. So challenge yourself to find ways to do quick, cheap, useful experiments. You can do lot of unuseful experiments. Amazon experienced that. There's a story in my book about how Amazon had to start just shepherding the experiments a little more and having some better criteria. Because you could do an endless array of experiments and not get anywhere. There's a wonderful book called Experimentation Matters by a Harvard business professor. Wonderful book as well. But I love experimentation and learning. And I see it as critical to building great products. So that's that principle there. Brian (16:46) Yeah, there's a real difference, I think, in organizations that put value on that learning process. if you see it as a valuable thing, that we invest time to gain knowledge, then that really can truly make an impact when you go forward. I know I've talked about this in classes sometimes where people will say, isn't it a little bit selfish from the organization to try to always just figure out what's going to sell the best? or what's going to work the best in advance of putting something out. My response is always, well, yes, there is a benefit to the business, but there's a benefit to the customer as well because they would rather you work on things that they care more about. Joshua Kerievsky (17:24) That's right. Yeah. I mean, we once put out an experimental product to a large automotive company. And we were really excited about it. We had a whole list of features we wanted to add to it. But we were like, you know what? Let's just get this primitive version kind of in their hands just to see what happens. it turned out that we learned very rapidly that they couldn't run the software at all. There was some proxy. that was preventing communication with our servers from their environment. So it was like, excellent. We learned really quickly that instead of those fancy new features we want to add to this thing, we're going to fix the proxy problem. And to me, that's the nature of evolutionary design is that we create something, get it out there quickly, and learn from it rapidly and evolve it. So it goes hand in hand with that as well. Brian (18:11) That's awesome. Well, there's one category left then, and that is deliver value continuously. So what was the genesis of that? Thinking about delivering value continuously. Joshua Kerievsky (18:19) So that was heavily influenced by my own journey into continuous delivery and continuous deployment and that whole world. We got into that very early. I was lucky enough to catch a video by Timothy Fritz, who he worked with Eric at IMBU. And he coined the term continuous deployment. And that video is actually no longer on the Brian (18:43) Ha Joshua Kerievsky (18:44) But this was something that I became enamored of was doing continuous deployment. And we started doing it at Industrial Logic with our own e-learning software back in about 2010. And by the time you get to like 2015, it's like, hey folks, there's this thing where you can do a little bit of work and ship it immediately to production in a very safe way, a safe deployment pipeline. It's friggin' awesome. But the principle doesn't just apply to that because this modern agile is not just about software development. It's how can I work in a way that gets value in front of people as fast as possible? So for example, if I'm working on a proposal, great, I'm not going to work for two weeks and then show you something. I'm going to put something together, a skeleton, I'm going to show it to you and say, what do you think? Does this add value? Where would we improve this? Blah, blah, Again, going hand in hand with evolutionary design. continuous delivery of value is something that is a way of working. With artists that I work with, they'll do a quick sketch or two or three sketches of something first before we start settling in on which one do we like the best and how do we want to craft and refine that. So there's a way of working in which you're delivering value much more finely grained and approaching continuously instead of in bigger batches. Brian (20:05) Yeah. I love the connection there between artists as well, because I've got a background in music, and I'm thinking about how when you go to write a song or create a new work like that, you start off with the roughest of demo tapes, and you move from there to increasingly more sophisticated versions of it until you finally have the finished product. But no one thinks that's strange or thinks that's weird in any way. But you're right. Sometimes there's this attitude or kind of I think in some organizations of, we can't let anyone see that until it's absolutely finished, until it's done. Joshua Kerievsky (20:39) Yeah, yeah, and that maybe that's that there's some fear there, you know, because they don't want to be thought of as, you know, being lesser because they put something rough in front of someone. Whereas I view it as a, you know, to me, it's a sign of weakness when you when you only send something polished because you haven't had the courage or the sense of safety to put something rough where we can make better decisions together early on. So. There's a lot of learning, I think, around that. But it's a challenging principle of its own, deliver value continuously. And people would say, well, what does value mean? Value is one of those words where it's unclear, because you could improve the internal design of a software system. Is that value? It probably is. But you've got to be able to quantify it or prove that it's going to help make things more graceful in terms of flowing features out. yeah, quantifying, communicating what the value is. is important. I'm also a big fan of maximizing the amount of work not done, as it says in the manifesto. So how can we do less and deliver more sooner? Our motto in industrial logic now is better software sooner. And a lot of these principles go straight into that. that drives it. Brian (21:38) Yeah. That's really great. Yeah, I love these four principles and I think that they really represent a lot. There's a lot that's baked into each one of these things. And I'm sure as you kind of put this together with the community and started to talk more about it, I'm sure there were some challenges. I'm sure people came up to you and said, well, what about and how about this? Is there anything now looking back on this that you'd say, gosh, we really... really didn't quite cover this or, know, this is maybe I could fudge it and squeeze it in this area, but you know, there's this other thing that I really think would be important to kind of mention here as well. Joshua Kerievsky (22:28) Well, you know, it's funny, because I thought I was going to write a book. I started collecting stories. I love telling stories, and I find stories to be a great way to help educate people. Not the only way, right? But as part of some of the workshops I give, you tell a story. Hopefully it's a story that's sticky, that sticks in the person's brain. And over the years, I collected stories like that, stories of agility. I thought I'd be writing a book about modern agile when I started writing Joy of Agility. Gradually, as I wrote more and more stories, they didn't quite fit into all those four principles. And I think the lesson I learned there was that I was starting to talk about what pure Agile means, the word Agile. What does it really mean to be Agile? Whereas modern Agile is really almost in the context of product development, of building services or products for people. Whereas Agile itself is even more pure. And so the... the book itself got into the difference between quickness and hurrying, which you can relate to this. You could say experiment and learn rapidly. Well, OK, maybe we shouldn't rush it. Don't rush. Be quick, but don't hurry is one of the mantras in Joy of Agility. So adapting, right? Adapting, we talk about adapting all the time. So to be agile, you need to be able to adapt quickly. These four principles in modern agile don't say anything about adapting. Brian (23:46) Ha Joshua Kerievsky (23:48) So that's kind of implied, but it's not there. So it's a different lens on agility. If anything, I'd say the make people awesome principles are not meant to. It created some dislike, I'd say, from some people. It could have been called empower people, potentially, although a lot of people really love make people awesome. I don't know so much what I'd change there. I'd say we have a .org. So it's a modernagile.org is a website. There's a pretty large Slack community, which, know, four or 5,000 people on that. We don't certify anyone in modern agile, so there's no certifications, but it's something that is neutral in the sense that whether you practice Scrum or Kanban or Safe or whatever, these principles can influence you. And, you know, but again, this all came out of like, when I went to that open space conference in Prague, I had no idea I was going to talk about modern agile. You know, it was not like a predetermined thing. It was just like, my God, they're not talking about the modern ways we're doing stuff. So, and I always encourage people to, you know, keep pushing the limits and keep modernizing. I said to my own company the other day, our wonderful ways of working that we've been doing now for years that have evolved, they're probably antiquated as of today. You know, with generative AI, what would we do differently? Let's have a perspective on our own work as it needs to be modernized constantly. So the term modern in modern agile means always be modernizing, always be looking. Okay, I've had people say, well, Josh, some things don't need to be modernized. There's things that are just evergreen. They're classic. I'm like, absolutely. I'm not changing evolutionary design anytime soon. I find it to be quite useful in so many contexts. So yes, there's the evergreen stuff. And then there's the stuff where you can, indeed, discover a better way. The manifesto itself says, we are discovering better ways of working. Great. Keep that going. Keep modernizing and looking for easier, simpler, quick, easy grace. as the dictionary definition of Agile says, how can we work with quick, easy grace? That's always going to be improving, hopefully. Brian (26:12) Love that, yeah. And you're right, I mean, think there's some, to some people I think that there's, I guess at times an attitude of, you this is all new stuff or this is a brand new concept and something they don't really see the connection backwards in time to how these things are all built on other ideas that have been progressive over the years. So the idea of, yeah, this is, you know, we're, we're not saying that certain ideas are bad because now we're trying to modernize them. We're just saying we're trying to apply that same principle forward into kind of the context of today, which I don't see anyone should have a problem with that. Joshua Kerievsky (26:48) That's right. That's right. Well, and if you are experimenting and learning rapidly with your own process, which I highly encourage, chances are the way you work today will be different than it was yesterday. You will be exploring, like we use discovery trees today. We didn't use them before. Years ago, no one knew what a story map was. There wasn't such a thing as a story map. Now we have story maps. There's constant improvement happening. And you've got to be open-minded and willing to try new things and drop old stuff. We thought sprints and iterations and extreme programming was absolutely fundamentally part of the way to work. Then we started experimenting with dropping them and turned out, wow, this is pretty cool. We like this. It works pretty darn well for our purposes. That came through experimentation. some of our experiments were terrible, just terrible. It's not an experiment if you already know the outcome. keep pushing the limits of what can make you happier and more joyful at work in terms of producing great stuff. Brian (27:46) Awesome. That's great stuff. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on, Joshua. This is great stuff. just, you know, we'll put all the links to the books mentioned and everything else in our show notes for everybody. But as Joshua said, you can go to modernagile.org and find out more about this if you'd like to. You'll find information there about Joshua himself or his company again is Industrial Logic, Inc. And, you know, his book again, just to mention that, Joy of Agility. We were talking how some people get that title a little mixed up or whatever, but it's just the three words, joy of agility. So just look out for that book. I think you'll find it a rich resource for you. Joshua, thanks so much for coming on. Joshua Kerievsky (28:25) Thank you, Brian. Thanks to you. Thanks to Mountain Goat and the folks there. And I really appreciate chatting with you. It was really wonderful.

Sunita Sah: Defy Sunita Sah is an award-winning professor at Cornell University and an expert in organizational psychology, leading groundbreaking research on influence, authority, compliance, and defiance. A trained physician, her research and analyses have been widely published in leading academic journals and media entities including The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Harvard Business Review, and Scientific American. She is the author of Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes*. We often think of defiance as a snap judgement. Yet, it's so much more nuanced and purposeful than it often appears. In this conversation, Sunita and I explore the common patterns of defiance and how we can all do a better job of standing up for ourselves. Key Points We follow bad advice – even when we know it is obviously bad – to avoid appearing unhelpful. Defiance means acting in accordance with your true values when there is pressure to do otherwise. True defiance is not a snap judgement; it's a process. Acts of defiance are preceded by many moments of conscious compliance, when defiance is deferred. Five stages of defiance often emerge: (1) Tension, (2) Acknowledgement (to ourselves), (3) Escalation (vocalize to others), (4) Threat of non-compliance, and (5) Act of defiance. Vocalizing our concern to someone else is a key pivot point on the journey to ultimately saying no. Respond explicitly to these questions: (1) Who am I? (2) What type of situation is this? and (3) What does a person like me do in a situation such as this? Resources Mentioned Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes* by Sunita Sah Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes Find Courage to Speak When It Matters Most, with Allan McDonald (episode 229) How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404) How to Speak Up, with Connson Locke (episode 546) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.

Can failure be the secret ingredient to our success? As we stand on the brink of a new year, it's time to rethink how we perceive failure. Contrary to the traditional view of setbacks as purely negative, this episode unpacks the transformative concept of "failing well," inspired by Amy Edmondson's groundbreaking book, "The Right Kind of Wrong." We dissect failures into three categories: preventable, complex, and intelligent. Understanding these distinctions not only heightens our resilience but also enhances our capacity for growth, both personally and professionally. Through this lens, we discuss the importance of intelligent failure, where venturing into uncharted territories becomes a fertile ground for innovation and learning. As we prepare for 2025, the challenge is to embrace failure as a driving force for growth. By adopting acronyms like "First Attempt In Learning" and "From Action, I Learn," we emphasize the significance of learning through doing and experimenting. Rather than waiting for unattainable perfection, we learn valuable lessons through action and can use this feedback as a pivotal and far more accurate tool for refinement as opposed to reflection alone. With this mindset, we transform failures into valuable insights, enabling us to stretch our capabilities, refine our strategies, and ultimately, achieve a more enriching and fruitful year ahead. Let's get started! What You'll Learn: • Why our unhealthy relationship with failure holds us back. • Embracing intelligent failures as a catalyst for growth. • F.A.I.L. forward to achieve your goals.  • How to adopt a growth mindset for failure. • The importance of learning through action and experimentation Podcast Timestamps: (00:00) - What is Your Relationship with Failure? (04:20) - Not All Failures Are Created Equal (08:01) - Embracing Intelligent Failures for Innovation (19:06) – Looking Forward to 2025 Key Topics Discussed: Positive Leadership, Dealing with Failure, Achieving Success, Pursuing Goals, Amy Edmondson, Preventable Failures, Complex Failures, Intelligent Failures, Continuous Learning, Growth Mindset, Embracing Innovation, Minimum Viable Product, Feedback Through Action, Building Resilience, Insight Through Action, Embracing Challenges, Capitalizing on Opportunities, CEO Success More of Do Good to Lead Well: Website: https://craigdowden.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigdowden/ Mentions:Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well by Amy Edmondson

Leadership in 2024 was challenging, and 2025 promises to be even more demanding. With economic pressures, hybrid work complexities, and the rapid rise of AI, the expectations for leaders have never been higher. But the good news is we've packed the best leadership advice from 2024 into one powerhouse episode, giving you the tools to thrive in the year ahead. In this episode, Guy Kawasaki, Author & Chief Evangelist at Canva, kicks things off by sharing how a growth mindset and resilience can help leaders tackle challenges head-on and turn them into opportunities. Dr. Amy Edmondson, Novartis Professor of Leadership & Management, reveals why creating psychological safety and embracing “intelligent failures” is the key to innovation and team trust. Finally, John R. Miles, Founder & CEO of PASSION STRUCK, wraps it up with his next-level framework for mindset and behavior shifts, showing leaders how to unlock intrinsic motivation and lead with intention. Get all the insights you need to lead with confidence, inspire your team, and make 2025 your breakthrough year.   ________________ Start your day with the world's top leaders by joining thousands of others at Great Leadership on Substack. Just enter your email: ⁠⁠https://greatleadership.substack.com/

Stephen M. R. Covey: Trust & Inspire Stephen M. R. Covey is a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling author and former CEO of Covey Leadership Center. He led the strategy that propelled his father's book, Dr. Stephen R. Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, to become one of the two most influential business books of the 20th Century, according to CEO Magazine. He's the author The Speed of Trust and more recently Trust & Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others*. Despite everything we know about good leadership, a lot of places still operate in a command and control mindset. In this conversation, Stephen and I explore the key ways to shift from command and control to trust and inspire. Key Points In spite of all progress, most leaders today are still operating from a command and control mindset. The carrot and stick approach still dominates most organizational cultures and tactics. The biggest barrier to becoming a Trust & Inspire leader is when we think we already are one. People are whole people. The best leaders care for the body, heart, mind, and spirit. There is enough for everyone. Trust & Inspire leaders elevate caring above competition. Enduring influence is created from the inside out. The job of the leader is to go first. All people have greatness inside them. Trust & Inspire leaders work to unleash potential, not control it. Resources Mentioned Trust & Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others* by Stephen M. R. Covey Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404) Leadership Means You Go First, with Keith Ferrazzi (episode 488) The Starting Point for Repairing Trust, with Henry Cloud (episode 626) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.

Dan Dworkis: The Emergency Mind Dan Dworkis is Chief Medical Officer at The Mission Critical Team Institute. He's an emergency physician who helps individuals and teams apply knowledge under extreme pressure and perform at their best when it matters the most. He is the author of The Emergency Mind: Wiring Your Brain for Performance Under Pressure*. Every leader, at least occasionally, faces emergencies. In an emergency, the only way out is through. In this conversation, Dan and I explore the mindsets and tactics that will help us handle the most difficult situations. Key Points Emergencies are not just worse bad days. They are liminal — the only way out is through. Apply graduated pressure. Never allow suffering to be wasted. By going a bit slower, you notice where and why failures happen. Label an emergency with language that both recognizes the urgency of the situation and your faith in the team to resolve it. The room is always smarter than any one person in it. Tell people what problem they are working and your confidence level in it. Staying cool under pressure is not a fixed personality trait. You can get better by noticing and experimenting with what works for you (and doesn't) to handle high-pressure situations. Experience makes working under pressure easier, but you still need to practice for it. Notice what's effective (and not) in past and new situations before you experiment. Use situations in everyday life (a hard workout, an angry customer, getting cut off in traffic) to train yourself for responding in the toughest situations. Resources Mentioned The Emergency Mind: Wiring Your Brain for Performance Under Pressure* by Dan Dworkis Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes How to Become the Person You Want to Be, with James Clear (episode 376) How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404) How to Prevent a Team From Repeating Mistakes, with Robert “Cujo” Teschner (episode 660) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.

We all work in teams, from families, to companies, and everything in between. So what's the secret to doing it better? This hour, TED speakers share surprising strategies for successful teamwork. Guests include activist Hajer Sharief, social psychologist Amy Edmondson and private equity investor Pete Stavros. TED Radio Hour+ subscribers now get access to bonus episodes, with more ideas from TED speakers and a behind the scenes look with our producers. A Plus subscription also lets you listen to regular episodes (like this one!) without sponsors. Sign-up at: plus.npr.org/tedLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy