Podcasts about island def jam

Joy is one of our basic needs, and yet it eludes many. When we experience life's challenges and turmoil it may difficult to live in joy. Grace Harry learned how to see her pain as a gift that created a pathway for joy. She discusses how we find joy, re-discover it, and incorporate it into our daily lives. Grace worked for 30 years as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records. Today, she helps people welcome joy back into their lives. Her new book is The Joy Strategist: Your Path to Inner Change.   Follow CYACYL:Website: www.cyacyl.comDigital: www.cyacyl.com/digitalUpcoming shows: www.cyacyl.com/showsFacebook: www.facebook.com/changeyourattitudechangeyourlifeMusic: www.purple-planet.com

Annie Balliro is the President of the agency uniphi. In this interview we discuss how she went from working at Island Def Jam and Hard Rock International to going full time with her company representing music artists and astronauts. We also get into the debut of the Astronaut Rock Star Awards for National Astronaut Day. Follow Annie Balliro: LinkedIn  National Astronaut Day Links from episode: https://people.com/music/astronaut-michael-lopez-alegria-pianist-blkbok-perform-duet-from-space/ https://www.cc.com/video/6wn8i5/the-colbert-report-garrett-reisman https://pemachodronfoundation.org/product/comfortable-with-uncertainty-book/ Follow Creatives Prevail: Instagram TikTok We would love to hear from you! Please give us a review, this really helps get others to listen in. Any suggestions on how we can improve? DM us on Instagram or TikTok. Intro music: ‘Somebody' (Instrumental) by The Runner Up Outro music: ‘Let's Ride' (Instrumental) by Gabe Kubanda Host: Mike Zimmerlich Produced by: Omelette Prevail Post-Production: EarthtoMoira Tags: Creator Economy National Astronaut Day Astronaut Rock Star Awards Space NASA Music Industry Music Business

Welcome to the episode 31 of "Women In The Music Industry", a podcast that shines a spotlight on the remarkable women who are breaking barriers and making their mark in an industry that has long been dominated by men. My guest today is none other than critically acclaimed UK R&B Soul Singer / Songwriter / Recording Artist Terri Walker! Terri shares her incredible journey, from being musically inspired as a young child while listening to records with her mother, to having a life changing moment while singing at her biological father's funeral, to being the first female signed to Def Jam UK, to releasing multiple albums to critical acclaim. Terri is also celebrating the 20th anniversary of her well loved 2003 album, 'Untitled', with the release of her highly anticipated new album 'My Love Story', out now via “Wings of a Hummingbird Records/Believe UK”.  The album is a testament to Terri's growth as an artist over the past two decades. “My Love Story is an album that I made for myself. It has been one of accountability, and ownership – no blaming or assumptions. It's an album where I didn't worry that it didn't meet my, or other people's expectations.” If you are enjoying this video series, please rate/review/subscribe/tell everyone about it. Every little bit helps. Instagram: @iamterriwalker Web:  www.terriwalker.co.uk  

Joy is one of our basic needs, and yet it eludes many. When we experience life's challenges and turmoil it may difficult to live in joy. Grace Harry learned how to see her pain as a gift that created a pathway for joy. She discusses how we find joy, re-discover it, and incorporate it into our daily lives. Grace worked for 30 years as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records, and was once married to Usher. Today, she helps people welcome joy back into their lives. Her new book is The Joy Strategist: Your Path to Inner Change. Follow Grace Harry on Instagram @graceharry Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Keith sits down with Geoff Rickly to discuss his new novel "Someone Who Isn't Me", the early stages of writing the novel, the creative process and how Geoff refined and revised his writing, Geoff's story of addiction and recovery which became the basis of the novel and some ideas that didn't make it into the final draft. We also discuss Thursday, their meteoric rise after the release of "Full Collapse", parting ways with Victory Records and signing with Island / Def Jam, their major label debut "War All The Time", their banned music video for the album's title track, their follow up LP "A City By The Light Divided" and the initial end of the band. We also cover No Devotion, how Geoff joined the band, their debut LP "Permanence", winning album of the year at the Kerrang awards, their 2022 LP "No Oblivion", United Nations, almost getting sued by the actual UN, Geoff's former label Collect Records, the Ink & Dagger Reunion and more.

Du collectif afro-futuriste congolais Fulu Miziki aux nouveaux espaces indo-helvético-franco-égyptien de Zamakan Trio. Tous les mois, le critique musical Sophian Fanen chronique 5 nouveautés, voici son choix :- Fulu Miziki, Pieteron, single (Moshi Moshi Records, 2023)- Mimaa, Raíces, tiré de l'EP Soleil (Island Def Jam, 2023)- Slow J, Pirâmide, tiré de l'album Afro Fado (Sente Isto/Sony Music, 2023)- 15 15, Perfect Heaven, tiré de l'EP Aataheva (S76, 2023)- Elisapie, Qaisimalaurittuq (Wish You Were Here), tiré de l'album Inuktitut (Elisapie/Yotanka, 2023). Puis nous recevons Baptiste Ferrandis (guitariste et compositeur) du groupe Zamakan pour la sortie de l'album Dans le ventre de la nuit.Guitariste virtuose et touche-à-tout Baptiste est passionné par la musique et la composition.Un esprit créatif bouillonnant, toujours en quête d'expériences musicales transcendantales de tous horizons.Guitariste explorateur, leader mais aussi auteur et compositeur dans différentes utopies sonores.SARAB (musique orientale/rock /jazz moderne) ; Chrones (jazz rock) ; Duo Miral (chanson world) ; Six Ring Circus ; Zamakan, Nos ailleurs… Et c'est Pour le projet Zamakan qu'il est notre invité.ZAMAKAN Trio, né de la rencontre du musicien égyptien du saz Abdallah Abozekry, du guitariste français Baptiste Ferrandis et du violoniste indo-helvétique Baiju Bhatt, se veut ambassadeur d'un tissage audacieux et novateur, naviguant entre énergie pure et rêverie poétique. Les compositions originales et les performances captivantes de ces trois complices illustrent la passion et la créativité radicale qui animent ce groupe défricheur de nouveaux terrains musicaux. ZAMAKAN incarne une nouvelle génération de musiciens décomplexés qui embrassent fièrement leurs identités multiples et la richesse musicale mondiale.Titres diffusés de Zamakan, extraits de l'album Dans le Ventre de la Nuit.- Eltopo. Porte d'entrée qui s'ouvre sur une aube lumineuse. Harmonie fuyant une mélodie déclamée, cinq temps en la mineur. Discours rythmique, énergie qui monte. La trame se brise et de la cassure, surgissent des formes électroniques portées par un souffle de cité en feu. Apaisement et contemplation s'invitent enfin pour exposer une dernière fois la mélodie sous les lumières changeante d'une fin de journée.- Here and Now. Mélancolie de la recherche du temps présent. Chant qui essaye d'apprendre à ne plus vivre dans le futur.  - Blues Rast. Le sable se glisse, chaleur séchante de la fin du jour. La joie d'être ensemble résonne dans les questions réponses clamées. Rythme boiteux et harmonie ouverte façonnent une histoire partagée du Rast au Blues, il n'y a qu'un pas. ► Album Dans le Ventre de la Nuit (Autoprod 2023).

Joy is one of our basic needs, and yet it eludes many. When we experience life's challenges and turmoil it may difficult to live in joy. Grace Harry learned how to see her pain as a gift that created a pathway for joy. She discusses about how we find joy, re-discover it, and incorporate it into our daily lives. Grace worked for 30 years as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records, and was once married to Usher. Today, she helps people welcome joy back into their lives. Her new book is The Joy Strategist: Your Path to Inner Change.   Music: www.purple-planet.com Show site: www.cyacyl.com

How do you define joy? Is it something that you feel, something that you experience, or something that you create? Grace Harry joined the podcast today to chat about her debut book, ‘The Joy Strategist, ' a compilation of her own experience and knowledge on bringing joy back into your life and keeping it a recurring feeling day in and day out! About the Guest:Grace Harry is an artist, entrepreneur, creative muse, pleasure instigator, and speaker. After an illustrious 30-year career in entertainment, Grace, “The Joy Strategist,” found her calling leading what she calls “the Revolution of JOY.” Through her popular playdate community, “Play with Grace,” she helps everyday people welcome joy back into their lives. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, HelloGiggles, Vogue Online, The Times UK, The London Evening Standard, and many more. In her thirty years working as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records, Grace Harry has lived her many creative lives at the intersection of music, art, and the passionate pursuit of joy—a long-forgotten but vital birthright. Many of us have no idea what joy truly is, and capturing it is often easier said than done.In The Joy Strategist, Grace takes readers on a journey to explore all dimensions of joy: how we find it, how we can re-discover it, and how we can incorporate it into our daily lives.Sometimes lighthearted and always real, The Joy Strategist shows readers how to break through creative or emotional ruts that keep them from tapping into their innate ability to feel true and unfettered joy. Grace coaches readers with meaningful autobiographical anecdotes and her toolbox of playful activities.https://www.instagram.com/graceharry/?hl=enhttps://thejoystrategist.com/https://books.disney.com/book/the-joy-strategist/https://calendly.com/gracevoler/playwithgrace?month=2023-12About the Host: Following the crumbs in the chaos is a full-time job as a Productivity Coach. As a busy mom of three and the founder of Chaos N' Cookies, keeping moms from crumbling is my main objective. After gaining 10+ years of experience as a Director of Marketing helping build multiple 6 & 7-figure businesses for other women I've created the Chaos Control System to equip moms to overcome their own objections so they can live the life they want to live and start that business they have always wanted. The Family Playbook, or standard operating procedure, is the tool every mama needs to save time and stress-less when chaos ensues at home. For new biz owners, I also help simplify systems on social media and other business platforms to automate processes to get their business up and running quickly and efficiently with how-tos and hands-on coaching. I have helped hundreds of women to be more productive and self-sufficient in their homes and businesses allowing them to reclaim control of the chaos. www.chaosncookies.comhttps://www.instagram.com/chaosncookies/https://www.instagram.com/theheathergreco/https://www.facebook.com/Chaos-n-Cookies-111324364538688https://chaosncookies.com/shophttps://linktr.ee/hsteinker Thanks for listening!Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page.Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section...

In her thirty years working as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records, Grace Harry has lived her many creative lives at the intersection of music, art, and the passionate pursuit of joy—a long forgotten, but vital birthright. Many of us have no idea what joy truly is, and capturing it is often easier said than done. In The Joy Strategist, Grace takes readers on a journey to explore all dimensions of joy: how we find it, how we can re-discover it, and how we can incorporate it into our daily lives. Sometimes lighthearted and always real, The Joy Strategist shows readers how to break through creative or emotional ruts that keep them from tapping into their innate ability to feel true and unfettered joy. Grace coaches readers with meaningful autobiographical anecdotes and her toolbox of playful activities

Top music executive, GRACE HARRY, who guided the careers of legendary hip-hop, R&B, and pop singers, shares her insights on how to get inspired and reconnect with our purpose. In her thirty years working as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records.Grace Harry has lived her many creative lives at the intersection of music, art, and the passionate pursuit of joy—a long forgotten, but vital birthright. Many of us have no idea what joy truly is, and capturing it is often easier said than done. In The Joy Strategist, Grace takes readers on a journey to explore all dimensions of joy: how we find it, how we can re-discover it, and how we can incorporate it into our daily lives.“The Joy Strategist,” found her calling leading what she calls “the Revolution of JOY.” Through her popular playdate community “Play with Grace,” she helps everyday people welcome joy back into their lives. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, HelloGiggles, Vogue Online, The Times UK, The London Evening Standard, and many more. THE JOY STRATEGIST YOUR PATH TO INNER CHANGE https://thejoystrategist.com/ The Douglas Coleman Show now offers audio and video promotional packages for music artists as well as video promotional packages for authors. Please see our website for complete details. http://douglascolemanshow.com If you have a comment about this episode or any other, please click the link below. https://ratethispodcast.com/douglascolemanshow Please help us to continue to bring you quality content by showing your support for our show. https://fundrazr.com/e2CLX2?ref=ab_eCTqb8

Music Industry Executive Grace Harry wants to show you how to break through whatever creative or emotional rut is keeping you from tapping into your ability to feel true joy in your life.  She knows how to guide creative people because that's what she did for 30 years while guiding musicians and artists at Island Def Jam and Jive Records.  Now Grace Harry is “The Joy Strategist' - sharing her authentic self and what she learned to help you get you to where she had to get herself… back to center, dismantling your ego and culturally conditioned limiting beliefs.  Grace said,   “I realized I had to get off the ride. And it wasn't the ride to penalize anyone else, it was more where I wasn't taking full responsibility for my own, you know, being the chief energy officer of my own life. And so if I have gotten this place in life where I've achieved all these things from other people's version of success, why did I feel so joyless? And what kind of strategy could I put in place to change that? Because I believe very clearly that your children do as you do, not as you say, and I would never want them to have even more crap in their family karma backpack than I'd already given them.” I thought Grace's comment about ‘family crap in the backpack ‘ was a loud one. Giving yourself permission to see yourself in a new way is what Grace is trying to get at. I think we all have struggled with this at some point, We have preconceived notions of who our parents want us to grow up to be, our friends expect us to be, and who we expect ourselves to be. When in fact it may not be who we are supposed to be, and at what point do you realize you have permission to change…and can you? Because there are always relationships involved, finances involved, other people involved that your choices will affect. Which is exactly why I don't own a Tiki Bar on some island!...Yet. LOL Good thought provoking book and conversation you might want to explore. Meet Grace Harry in this podcast of our live conversation on  The Debbie Nigro Show on  WGCH Radio. If you want to catch the show it airs Weekdays 11-12noon ET in the NY/CT area on 1490 on the dial. But you can listen from anywhere, just hit the ‘Listen Live' button on WGCH.com  

In her thirty years working as a music industry executive at Island Def Jam and Jive Records, Grace Harry has lived her many creative lives at the intersection of music, art, and the passionate pursuit of joy—a long forgotten, but vital birthright. Many of us have no idea what joy truly is, and capturing it is often easier said than done. In The Joy Strategist, Grace takes readers on a journey to explore all dimensions of joy: how we find it, how we can re-discover it, and how we can incorporate it into our daily lives. Sometimes lighthearted and always real, The Joy Strategist shows readers how to break through creative or emotional ruts that keep them from tapping into their innate ability to feel true and unfettered joy. Grace coaches readers with meaningful autobiographical anecdotes and her toolbox of playful activities

The rapper was exposed early on to music professionals and entertainers such as Island Def Jam executive Yvette Davila, and rappers Fat Joe, N.O.R.E., the late Big Pun, and many more. Conan soon teamed up with fellow rapper Young Cor to form the rap group Illest Spitters, and released The Youngest in Charge mixtape, hosted by Kid Capri. Conan's first solo project was the mixtape The New Beginning, which was dubbed “a 3-D experience that will give new and old fans a chance to hear some of the innovative material Conan is creating.” A burgeoning businessman also emerged as Conan worked with and learned from his father's company, YNVS Marketing, Promotion, and Management.While promoting The New Beginning, Conan was featured on Beatport, eMusic, The DJ List, and other top sites. He was also a featured performer on the 15-city, 2013 Coast to Coast Mixtape Tour with N.O.R.E. and the Good Belt Gang, and on a 35-day tour with Lil Wayne, 2 Chainz, and others in promotion of a popular Facebook game that he helped launch, Play Gig-it. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/nalasden88/message

Few record labels have left their stamp on the industry quite like Motown. This assembly line churned out hit song after hit song in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. With a who's-who roster — Marin Gaye, The Jackson 5, Diana Ross, and Stevie Wonder, among others — The Hitsville U.S.A. sign Gordy put on Motown's front door became warranted. This episode is the story of Motown Records — it's formula for success, what led to its decline, and where it stands today under Universal. I'm joined by friend of the pod, Zack O'Malley Greenburg. Here's what we covered in this episode:0:38 Berry Gordy's origin story8:08 Motown museum in Detroit9:20 Cultivating a culture of creativity13:05 Shifting the sound of Black music20:12 Motown's knack for discovering talent 34:29 The beginning of the decline36:12 80's decade of transition39:48 Post-Gordy struggles45:51 Motown's uncertainty today53:59 Best signing?55:16 Best business move?568:45 Dark horse move?1:01:58 Biggest missed opportunity?1:07:13 Motown big-screen picture1:09:22 Berry Gordy won big1:10:41 Who lost the most?1:14:56 Zack's Jay Z indexListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Zack O'Malley Greenburg, @zogblogThis episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fmEnjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapitalTrapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital's free memo.TRANSCRIPT[00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and a testament to the sound that he created,[00:00:13] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.[00:00:38] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a deep dive into the one and only legendary Motown records. At its peak, Motown was the most successful black business in the country. It peaked at 30 million dollars of revenue in 1968 and Barry Gordy and his team assembled a sound. a unique genre of music that produced hit after hit after hit and Hitsville USA lived up to its promise.So in this episode, we take you through the origins of how Motown came to be. What are some of the business principles and strategies that worked in its favor? And then what are some of the challenges that Motown faced too? It's now been 50 years since the peak of Motown. And this record label has had plenty of ups and downs and plenty of journeys that we went deep on in this episode. And I'm joined by Zach Greenburg He is a biographer of Jay Z and several others, and he also wrote about Michael Jackson. And in that he talked about Michael Jackson's time with Motown, especially in the Jackson 5. So we had a lot of fun in this one. So come take a trip down memory lane with us. Here's our episode on Motown.[00:01:42] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're back with another case study style episode, and we're going deep into Hitsville, USA. Motown, baby. Let's do this, Zack, I'm excited for this one.[00:01:53] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me as always.[00:01:55] Dan Runcie: Berry Gordy is so fascinating because At one point, this was the most successful black business. They're the most successful black entrepreneur in the country invented a genre.And it's so hard to be able to do that. And that legacy still lives on today. We know so many record labels that have taken inspiration from what Berry Gordy built with Motown records, but let's start from the beginning. What inspired Berry Gordy to even want to get involved with music in the first place?[00:02:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So, you know, Berry Gordy, and his family were in the Detroit area, you know, a bunch of serial entrepreneurs, get a record shop early on, but he was actually like semi professional boxer coming up. And, think one thing led to another and you just kind of saw that, you know, there was a market that was not being served in music.you know, certainly like the business was concentrated, on the coast and particularly in New York at that time, you know, eventually more in LA, but. you know, there was some stuff going on in Chicago. there was some regional acts, regional labels, things like that. But, you know, I think he just basically saw an opportunity, to start something.And, you know, sort of in the way that if you look at, Richard Branson or Puffy or, you know, what are those types of entrepreneurs? It's almost It doesn't really matter what they get into. They find a way to make it work. and they're just always on the lookout for a new sector. That's, kind of, you know, right for some creative destruction, know, and some refreshing or some freshening, some revising, I don't know, whatever you would call it.And, you know, in the case of Berry Gordy. Kind of amazingly, when you think about music over the past half century, he looked around and he thought, well, this is actually, this is a sector that is very promising amongst all the sectors that I could possibly get into. So, that's how Motown came to pass.[00:03:36] Dan Runcie: That point about whether it's Diddy, Branson, Gordy, and I think a lot of the tech CEOs fall in this category as well. You're going to put them in any generation. And I do think that these people would have found a way to make things work. And that's the same point you're making, right? He saw an opportunity to music, but let's say he came 30 years later.It could have been another aspect. Let's say he came today, probably could have been trying to do something in AI or even figure it out, how to make AI, be transformative with his music. And I think a lot of his work, whether you think about how he built derivative work or how he had this process with artists that we'll get into so much of it taps into, okay, here's an opportunity to optimize things.Here's how we can make things work. And music just happened to be the format. He chose it.[00:04:21] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And even, you know, when you think about it, he got started sort of mid century 30 years later, he was looking into other things, getting involved in film and TV. And You know, moving the business out West, but, you know, we'll get there eventually, but, he certainly did, you know, find other ways to extend the Motown brand as time went on.[00:04:37] Dan Runcie: So he starts off, he has this record business and things go okay with that. specifically talking about the store. And that was a lot of it was connected a bit more from the family perspective, but then he ends up getting the job at Ford specifically working with that Lincoln mercury plant. And that's when he was only there for 2 years, but he then sees how the process works and the whole concept of Ford is, which is that assembly line process that Henry Ford has been famous for.He sees that and then he taps back into his opportunities with music and he's like, okay. Okay, there's an opportunity to do the same with music. So he sees this assembly line, essentially have all these parts go through the inputs. And then the output, you get this car, he wanted to be able to pull some kid off the street, bring them into the Motown and bring them into this record label facility.And then outcomes a star. And he felt like he had the ability to be able to create that type of dynamic. And it took some time to get there, but that's essentially what he did. And a lot of the creations of what we saw from Hitsville USA was that exactly.[00:05:48] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, he'll tell you that, I've interviewed him a couple of times. Once for Forbes, once for my book, Michael Jackson Inc, where he talked a lot about that. And, you know, he really has a formula, for making a hit song. And, you know, it's sort of like the song has to have a clear beginning, middle at an end. The chorus has to have a sort of grand arc that summarizes the song every time it happens.And then there's a sort of like grand finale bridge ending thing that, brings it all together, always at the end you hear the artist shout out the song's name almost, you know, invariably one last time and you know, that's like pure marketing, right? And you think about it in those days, this great songs on, you're hearing it, but like, you know, maybe you're in the car, it's on the radio, maybe you're artist and a record player.It's not popping up on your phone. So you know what it's called when you hear Michael Jackson shout out, I want you back at the end and I want you back. what you're going to go out and buy, you know what, you're going to call in, you know, to the radio station and ask them to play. So, it's very calculated, it really works and it's proven and, you know, if it sort of seems like, gosh. You know, this is like a cliche. This is obvious. I think part of it is because he helped create this cliche, obvious thing, right? I mean, things become cliche or obvious because they're smart or necessary most of the time.So, you know, at some point it was novel and, you know, very corny, I think was part of, making that whole song structure novel. And, you know, really. When you look at how he executed it, you know, I think a modern day analog, we talked about this, you know, before on our bad boy episode, but so, you know, his role was very much like the Puffy role, or at least the early Puffy role in production. So, you know, he had a hand in songwriting and production, but, you know, mostly he figured out who he wanted to have producing his labels, songs and sort of who he wanted to be in charge of authoring that certain type of sound.So for Berry Gordy, it was a handful of, producers called the corporation, just like Puffy had the Hitmen. And, you know, then he would kind of come in and do his own little thing on top when he thought it was necessary. But, you know, in a way it kind of adds that whole assembly line aspect, right? Where, you know, that there's going to be a certain level of quality, there's going to be like a distinctive sound, whether it's a bad boy or Motown, or, you know, even going back to, you know, what a Ford car was, you know, in those days you had kind of an ideology to get.And I think that's one of the things that really set Motown apart.[00:08:08] Dan Runcie: Exactly. And I think with that too, you have him going through the process of starting this. So this record label started with an 800 with 800. That's what he had initially. And he uses that to then start Hitsville USA. So that's the location on Grand Ave in Detroit.Have you been to this museum by the way?[00:08:30] Zack Greenburg: I did. We did a special event there. One time we had the Forbes 30 under 30, Summit and we did this like, special, like one off private interview where I went there with Quavo and we sat in Motown studios, you know, where Michael Jackson and all them had recorded. and we did a little like video discussion on the state of the music business, I think it's floating around the internet somewhere, but, it's a really cool building. I mean, I think what strikes. Me the most, you know, like the first time I went in is like the fact that just a house.I mean, it really just looks like a house. the rooms are sort of like room size, you know, it's not some sprawling like, you know, I don't know, institutional type place like a lot of modern, recording studios, you know, it's just a converted house but you know, you kind of walk through each room and it's museum and everything now, so you can kind of get a feel for it. It's very different from the modern day glitz and glamour of the record business for sure.[00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah, been there twice. it was really cool because just like you said, you feel like you're actually in a home and that's the vibe that the studio gives you. And I felt like the people that were the tour guides as well, they clearly knew their history in a way where it should sound obvious, but that could obviously be hit or miss with museum sometimes.So I felt like that piece of it was good. And it ties back to a few things that tap into the culture that it is. Gordy wanted to create that. I think make it work. He lived upstairs. Studio is downstairs. So he has everything there and he wanted to make this somewhere that creativity could spawn at any particular moment.So he wanted to create a 24/7. Set up where he had made sure the vending machines were always stocked. So people could stay there year, you know, day in day out. If creativity comes to you at 3 p. m. or 3 a. m. you can go right there and do what you have to do. And you could keep things moving there internally.And this is one of the things that I do think worked really well for them because. Although I think the music industry has gotten away from this, there was this era where the culture and the vibe that you could create from a label and all that continuity really helped things. So when you saw how deliberate he was from an assembly line perspective was essentially keeping his product in place and keeping all the materials in place so that it can produce outputs at any given moments to just increase the likelihood that you could have hits coming time and time again.[00:10:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I mean, he certainly spoke a lot about, quality control, which is, it's kind of funny, you know, given the eventual QC relationship, but, you know, I think that's a really big part of it. And when you're that hands on and, you know, in some cases you could say micromanaging, but it does enable you to really have a unified.We can also get into this, fact that at some point it can become a bit of a creative constraint for artists as they mature.[00:11:14] Dan Runcie: Right, because with quality control, there was someone on the team that listened to everything that came through Motown and they essentially picked the best. They brought it to this weekly meeting and most of the Motown artists weren't writing or producing their materials necessarily, but they were going in and you had all these artists that would essentially sing.The same exact song and then they would pick the best version that came out of that to then release the song. Sometimes they had multiple artists that would end up releasing a version. And we saw different versions of this where you had both Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye have their versions of Ain't No Mountain high enough.Granted it was a few years later in different songs, but a lot of that stems from that quality control aspect. And there's this one quote that, was here from One of the books that was written about, Berry Gordy and Motown, where they talked about quality control and they said, quote, the artists were a means to an end in a way, end quote.And that's exactly what we're talking about how the downside is that it could limit creativity, but the upside is that it gives you the opportunity to get the best polished diamond from all of the creations that come from this studio.[00:12:24] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And man, there were quite a few, right? I mean, when you look through, I mean, the heydays, Smokey Robinson, the Miracles, Diana Ross, the Supremes, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, coming into, you know, Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5, you know, think we've talked about in our previous discussions about hip hop, you know, like sort of the staying power, of different labels and, you know, and how you can kind of keep identifying talent and keep it coming. I mean, that's quite a breadth You know, of like musical accomplishment that they've got, that you could say that Berry Gordy identified over the years.So, you know, I would really, obviously I'd put him up against any other, identify any A& R, any, you know, music mogul in the history of the business, for sure.[00:13:05] Dan Runcie: I agree. And I think the other thing that's interesting too, is This taps back into the whole process and quality management things. Berry Gordy really wanted to help shift the sound and direction of this label because at the time, black music and music that was made by black artists was quite segmented where people didn't feel like it could reach beyond a certain audience.And he experienced some of this himself. One of the reasons that his record stores closed was because he was focused primarily on jazz music. At the time, even Black folks weren't really into jazz at that particular moment. So he just didn't have the market to be able to continue this. So I think that helps Chase Motower.He says, okay, I want the music that's able to be listened to by everyone. I want Black people to ride with it. I want white people. I want anyone in America to be able to ride with the same way that people would listen to the Beach Boys. And he had a few more interesting things that were part of this process.One, everyone had an etiquette coach. And these are things that we're teaching them, essentially, how you have black people essentially speak to white people. Granted, I think there's a lot of that that is problematic. That probably wouldn't fly into the same ways today, just given some of the language there.but then additionally, he also had white salesmen that were essentially the ones that were promoting the records in different areas, going to different radio stations. And he would go as far to insert in records that he's promoting to not even show the artist on the cover because he wanted the record to reach.And he didn't want people to necessarily immediately see or relate it to a black artist, which I thought was interesting, but lined up with a lot of these things. So, even though some of the choices clearly were problematic, it probably wouldn't fly at the same way today. That's how he was about process and wanting to essentially be able to sell this talent anywhere in the country.[00:15:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it's especially remarkable when you sort think of the cultural context of, you know, of when this is all happening in the 60s. You know, I mean, this is a time of great polarization and social change and, you know, really like turmoil, in a lot of ways, disunity, but, what Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous like a genre, you know, beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and you're talking about like a genre, as much as you're talking about a label, the fact that you'd be able to sort of create that it like in the 60s, even the late 60s, when things were really why we think we're polarized now.I mean, the late sixties, oh my gosh. Like what a testament to the sort of the sound that he created, which, you know, just like bridged all these divides and, you know, you obviously still go to any wedding, black, white, you know, at anything. And, you're gonna hear Motown all over the place.So I think that kind of goes back to what he created, you know, even at the time. being so accessible to so many different audiences and, you know, one of the things he told me, when I interviewed him, he said that, Martin Luther King came to see him, in Detroit, at the peak of the civil rights movement.And apparently, according to Gary Gordy, MLK said, he said, what I'm trying to do politically and intellectually, you're doing with your music. I love the feeling people get when they hear your music. And so maybe we can make a deal. And they made a deal to actually put out some of MLK's greatest speeches.They put out three albums on Motown and Gordy kind of summed it up by saying, if you do the right thing will come to you. So I thought that was such a cool. Little nugget that people don't necessarily realize. and, you know, I think people don't, think of Berry Gordy as like avant garde, you know, civil rights activist or anything, but, he kind of approached it in his own way, which was to make this music that could, you know, that could really bring people together.They could also get black culture, you know, into the mainstream us culture, at the same time. And, you know, I mean, we saw that, you know, decades later with hip hop, but. Berry Gordy, you know, he made that blueprint, you know, very, very, very early on.[00:17:03] Dan Runcie: It's a great story because I think it highlights the complexity and that people just aren't in these corners. And as you mentioned, Berry Gordy wasn't known for his civil rights activism. In many ways, people would often point to things that he may have shied away from, where I remember, especially in the 70s when you started to hear a bit more of a pacifist and things like that, there was a push and people wanted Motown to lead more into this and he necessarily wasn't as eager at the time and I remember even Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, one of the biggest records that was ever made.There was tension leading up to that because Gordy was like, wait, what is this? you want to do this? Like, what are we doing here? And then it eventually gets made. And then you see how I feel like every time that one of these publications has one of the greatest songs ever made, I'm sure it's come up on number one, or at least on several, one of these.So you see that, and you've seen other areas where he clearly has leaned into this, but I do think that his. Place in his role at that time, often highlighted some of that ongoing tension that we've seen from black leaders over the years about people want progress, but what's the best way to agree with this?And you date back to some of the more public debates between folks like Booker T. Washington and W. E. B. Dubois about what is the best way for black progress and group economics and things like that. And I feel like Berry Gordy clearly was on a Particular side of that, that not everyone may have agreed with, but he clearly still wanted to be able to help progress things in a particular way.So he's a very fascinating figure as we look at this progression, especially in the 20th century.[00:18:42] Zack Greenburg: Well, that's right. And, you know, I think there's a reason you see him put out MLK speeches. I don't, think he put up Malcolm X's speeches, you know, but that was just sort of his approach, right? He was more Martin than Malcolm.And, you know, obviously you could speak to the merits of either method, but, Berry Gordon definitely, had his preference there.[00:18:59] Dan Runcie: The other thing that I want to talk about, you mentioned it earlier, but the talent and the breadth of talent that was in this place is such a constraint and such a valuable time.It's one of those things where just imagine walking through on a, some day in, let's say 1964, you're just walking through Motown and all of the names that you could just see there making music on a Wednesday afternoon. It's crazy to think of the names and also how he found folks because. Look at Smokey Robinson and Smokey Robinson, the miracles essentially end up releasing shop around, which I do think ends up becoming the first true hit that, or the first, hit single that comes from Motown.He found that he found Smokey on a street corner performing almost, and in many ways, it feels similar to. What we see decades later with Sylvia Robinson driving around the New Jersey tri state area, finding hip hop artists for Sugar Hill Gang. This is how these early entrepreneurs did it. They were the talent development.They saw things and granted it was a much less crowded market. So the people that were pushing music onto folks had a little bit easier time breaking through, but it was still tough, especially at the time. And he was able to make it work in that way, which was, cool.[00:20:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, he actually did. And, you know, of course, like the one group that we haven't talked about too much yet is Jackson and sort of the way that, different groups were signed in those days, you know, they're all the stories about, well, you hear, you see somebody busking and you sign them and this and that.And, sort of some of the stories, though, if you talk to a lot of different people, you get, you talk to 3 people, you get 3 different stories. Right? So, I think for my book on MJ, I talked to. His dad, I talked to Berry Gordy and I talked to the guy who signed them to this little record company called Steel Town in Gary, Indiana.And they all had three different versions of, you know, how it went down, right? And so, there's that old saying, basically that the winners get to write history and, you know, Berry Gordy won. So, you know, whether his version is a hundred percent, accurate or not, that's kind of the version that, you know, we tend to hear I think his version is usually correct, but there's definitely some, you know, embellishment or some showmanship from time to time.So, you know, I think, for example, with the Jackson 5, Berry Gordy decided to put out, I think it was their first album as Diana Ross presents the Jackson 5 and, you know, she had this little thing where she's like, I discovered this group from Gary, Indiana and like blah, blah, blah, and that wasn't really how it happened at all.And it was really, you know, depending on who you ask, but I think what happened is Suzanne DePasse, who was one of Berry Gordy's lieutenants, had discovered them, and I think it was, there's another band who heard them, like sent them along to Suzanne DePasse that like, she kind of did the legwork for Berry Gordy.And it was like many times, many. Kind of connections later that Diana Ross, you know, became connected, to the group. but, you know, it's such a better story, right? Like Diana Ross has found these kids from, from the Midwest and, you know, bringing them out, onto Motown. So. I always think that's, kind of funny how, the stories end up getting presented and, you know, when you hear it from everybody else involved, I mean, and Diana Ross, of course, did become, really instrumental and especially Michael's life, as time went on, moved to LA and I think she, he actually lived with her for a little while while they were, you know, making the move and all this stuff, but, you know, it, didn't exactly start out that way.[00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Right. And the Jackson 5 is interesting because they, in many ways were the last group that came through in the heyday of Motown because the heyday we're really talking about is that 50 to 60s run that we've been talking about with a lot of the groups and the artists that we mentioned, especially young Marvin Gaye, young Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes.And then Jackson 5 comes along. But they come along towards the end of the decade. And just for some context setting, in 1968, Motown is doing 30 million in revenue. And they at one point had a 65% hit rate on the songs that they released in terms of actually being able to chart. So the highs were quite high and they were, killing it.The thing is, though, in the early 70s, this is where things start to shift a little bit, because at this point, Berry has his eyes set much bigger, and he wants to move beyond things in Detroit, because of course he was in the Hitsville, U.S.A. house, solely, after the riots that happened and there was some damage there, they ended up expanding things closer.they ended up expanding further in Detroit to just get a bigger size studio there as well. But then, he eventually wants to go to Hollywood so that he could get more into film. He wants to get into production for plays. He wants to bring these artists on the big screen. And it makes sense. We see why this is a huge medium.You saw how much, popular this talent is. And if you can get people to see them and buy into this, visual image that he's clearly curated, no different than we saw someone like Diddy decades later curating things, he wanted to do that. And I think that in many ways, this was one of those big challenges that any leader can have.Do you stay with the thing that's working really well? Or do you try to expand? And when you do expand, how do you find out? How do you make sure that you have the best talent around you? How do you make sure that you're well equipped? And I think that bowtie really started to strain because as things started to grow for the label, a lot of the artists started to feel like they were getting neglected because of these broader ambitions.And that in many ways, now we're dating 50 plus years ago to like 1972 timeframe. That's when a lot of ways was the beginning of the end, at least in terms of the Motown that a lot of people grew up with and knew.[00:24:41] Zack Greenburg: I think so for sure. And, you know, I think as an entrepreneur, you have to seek the next thing, right? I mean, you don't want to stagnate and you kind of have to take the risk and go for the next big thing and maybe you succeed and maybe you don't, and I think that's at least the way we've been conditioned to think. On the other hand, there could be an argument for like, we don't need to have this growth at all costs mindset as a society, you know, what's wrong with having a really awesome business that's just like constantly, you know, successful has happy employees, you know, that kind of thing. But, I guess that's, you know, this is, you know, Trapital not, you know, Trapsocialism, I dunno, we're talking within a certain realm of, you know, of economic, styles and systems.So that's what's gotta happen. And that's what Berry Gordy decided to do, you know, by moving everything to LA but we talked, a while ago about John McClain, and his role in kind of in, in the past few decades as an executive. He's somebody who rarely talks, but somebody interviewed him at some point.He said that he thought that moving to LA was, kind of the beginning of the end for Motown, because it, kind of changed Motown from being a trendsetter to being a trend follower. And, I think I agree with that. And, you know, that's not to say that there wasn't additional success, especially, you know, beyond the recorded music business that occurred. And that moving to LA kind of, you know, like supercharged some of that, but yeah, you know, I mean, I think when Motown was in the Motor City, in its namesake place, like, You know, it was sort of like, I don't say the only game in town cause there were other labels, but I think it was sort of, the main game in town and, being in a place that, you know, wasn't sort of the epicenter of the music business allowed it to have kind of its own unique style and not sort of be influenced as much by what else was going on.And, you know, don't forget in those days, it wasn't like everything was, you know, it wasn't like we were all tuning into the same social media channels. you know, we weren't even like really tuned into cable TV or anything like that, you know, there wasn't the same kind of like national culture that there is today that, you know, where trends just kind of like fly across in a second. And things did kind of take time to move from one place to the other. throughout the country. So, you know, there was like a certain regionalism to it that I think set Motown apart and, you know, maybe you lose a little bit, you know, once you're out in LA, but, you know, certainly around that time, you really start to see some of the artists who wanted more creative freedom, leaving, you know, some others pushing back, you know, I think even within, a few years of moving to LA, the Jackson 5, we're kind of, having some issues with Motown and in terms of, you know, can we make some of our own types of music? You know, do we really have to stick to quite the assembly line? So, yeah, I do think it was a mixed bag for Berry Gordy to head west.[00:27:20] Dan Runcie: And this is where things really started to struggle because a lot of what worked for Berry Gordy was so perfect for. The Hitsville USA West Grand Ave mentality of building everything there and not to say that he was only an early stage founder that couldn't necessarily progress. But I think a lot of the processes he had were more fit for that era. So naturally, you see the growing success of the Jackson 5 and Michael is no longer 9 years old.He is at this point now a full on teenager, but unfortunately, it just didn't quite. Progress in a few things, as you mentioned, you wanted more, they wanted more creative control. They also wanted to have a bit more ownership. There were disputes about royalties. And I remember reading something that said that the Jackson 5 had calculated how much they got.And it was only a 2.3% stake of how much revenue was either coming through or would be coming through in the future. And they see this and they're like, okay, well how can we see our opportunity to get more of that? So then they leave for Epic. And then you also saw a handful of artists at this point were already on their ways out and things were definitely starting to look a little bit more bleak because by the time you get to the end of the seventies, the beginning of 1980s, The music industry was already, granted things are cyclical, but they were starting to sour a bit on black music.This was the end of disco and people wanted nothing to do with that genre. And even though Motown wasn't disco necessarily, there was vibes of the types of artists they were trying to naturally capture in the 70s. So then that had all of black music taking a hit in a lot of ways and there were groups like the barge and others that I think they tried to make work. Obviously, I think Stevie Wonder was a mainstay during all this and that worked out really well for them, but he was really just 1 mainstay. You did have Marvin Gaye, but again, still, it just wasn't necessarily. The same, and I think that they definitely started to struggle even more at that particular moment.And even as early as the 80s, you start to see more of that narrative that honestly, you still hear today about recapturing that Motown magic or recapturing that Motown journey. People have been saying this now for 40 years.[00:29:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing that people forget is that even though the Jackson 5 moved on to Epic, you know, and that's where MJ ended up, you know, Epic and CBS, and, that's where MJ ended up launching a solo career, people forget that Jermaine actually stayed at Motown initially. He had married Berry Gordy's daughter and, you know, they had this whole wedding with like, you know, 150 white doves were released and, you know, they had this, you know, kind of fairytale situation. And apparently, Berry said to Jermaine, like, Hey, you can go with your brothers and stay with me, whatever you want.And, you know, knowing Berry, I think he maybe didn't put it that delicately or, you know, that was kind of a huge break from Motown because you know, he had really taken the Jackson 5 under his wing. They used to have, Gordy versus Jackson family, baseball games. Michael Jackson would play catcher. It was very So, you know, I think Tito was like the big power hitter, is what I heard. but yeah, for, you know, I mean, these were two families that were really intricately linked. And I think ultimately it kind of came down to, you know, there was some creative control issues, but, you know, Joe Jackson was, pretty controlling, Berry Gordy was pretty controlling and at some point, you know, it just, I think it became impossible for them to coexist.And so, Joe kind of guided them over to Epic to get that big deal, but, you know, Jermaine. It wasn't obvious that Michael was going to be, you know, by far the superstar of all the Jacksons. And, you know, Jermaine did seem at the time to be like the one who had the most promising solo career, or at least it was, you know, pretty close.And, you know, he never really found his niche is a solo act and eventually it would go on to get back every night with his brothers and go on tours and that sort of thing.[00:31:22] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good distinction because people will often point to and think about what are the big nine and then he drops off the wall. This isn't what happened. There's a pretty big difference between those few years. No difference than anyone where naturally there's a difference between a 15 year, but there were others that experienced.So many of the artists that ended up leaving at that particular year old artist and a 19 year old artist. You're a completely different person at that point. And that's exactly what we ended up seeing with Michael. So missed opportunity for sure missed opportunities that Motown had, we'll get to miss opportunities in a minute, but you often hear people talk about them not being able to keep Michael, but to your point, the Jackson 5 leaving Motown in 1975, 76, isn't the same as.Them leaving in 1970 time ended up having greater,success once they were able to have a bit of freedom after leaving Motown, which was a bit unfortunate because obviously, I think it would have been great to see them continue that success under Berry Gordy's umbrella and continue to see them grow.But not everyone is going to be Stevie Wonder. Not everyone is there to say, Hey, I'm with you until the end. And I'm going to be riding with you during this entire journey. It just doesn't work that way. People have careers. No different. You see them today where people see a bigger opportunity and the grass is greener.They want to take advantage of that, especially if they don't feel like they are being put in the best position to thrive. So in the 80s, Motown is now officially in its transition recovery mode, trying to recapture what was there and we see a few things happen.So they start leading in on debarge. And a lot of people, DeBarge did have a pretty big hit with Rhythm of the Night, but I do think that they tried to make the DeBarge family replicate some of this Jackson family, where you had El DeBarge, and you had all of these others, but it just didn't quite click, at least in a mainstream way to that perspective, but then you did have Lionel Richie, who did end up having a pretty big career, especially with everything he had done since the, Commodores and, but then you also had Berry Gordy's son that they were also trying to work into the mix, who performed under the name Rockwell, who had had that song, somebody's watching me that Michael had sung the hook on.So you had a few things there, but just didn't exactly click because again, it's stuck in two models. Berry wanted to continue to have complete control over it. And the artists just didn't want that anymore. I think that worked when you were literally giving artists. No giving artists in a region of the country like Detroit a platform and opportunity, but they had no other options.But now they had leverage. Now they could go talk to mca Now they could go talk to CBS Epic and some of these other labels. So Berry's mentality just didn't work as much. And then by 1988 is when we see him transition on from the label, at least as the CEO level. And then we start to see the new blood come in to run the record label.[00:34:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think it is important to note that, you know, although you could characterize the 80s as sort of like musical decline era for Motown, you know, in the way that many artists are entrepreneurs, like, seem to be in a period of delays over some decade or whatever, they actually get much richer during that period of malaise, because what they had built before was so good.And there's still kind of like, they're finally cashing in on it, whereas maybe they didn't cash in on it when it first happened. But like, enough of the sort of like older, wealthier decision makers who can pay them more are like, finally getting hip to the fact that, you know, this is a big deal.So, I would definitely think about Motown that context and that, you know, when Berry was able to sell, you know, a huge chunk, of the company kind of like step back from it, that was after like a a period of time when Motown was not as hot as it had been.But you had things going on, like Motown 25 in 1983, that special. Put together, where MJ came back and reunited, with his brothers and the whole Motown crew and he had, you know, all these other artists, but that was actually the first time I think that MJ moonwalked, you know, sort of in public, like you know, he sort of like the popular debut of the moonwalk and it just really kind of, Created, so much buzz around that, that then kind of rubbed off on Motown and didn't really matter whether he wasn't on Motown anymore, but it just kind of gave a little more shine to the label and gave it sort of like, a relevance, I think that helped kind of carry through to the end of the 80s and helped get Berry Gordy, this really big payday.So, I wouldn't discount like You know, I don't know the sort of like delayed reaction that sort of the half life of fame or whatever you want to call it. But, there were still some of these moments that were created, that kept paying dividends as the time went on. I think[00:36:13] Dan Runcie: That's a fair point because he also sold at this smart time when right as we're seeing in this current era that we're recording, it's a very hot time for music asset transactions as were the late 80s and early 90s too. That's when you saw Geffen do many of the deals that he had done and Gordy. Did the same where I believe he made 61 million from the sale, or at least his portion of the sale in 1988, which is huge.You didn't see people, especially black business owners that fully owned everything being able to cash out at that level. So that's a good point. I'm glad that you mentioned that. And with this is when we start to see the transition of leadership. And we start to see a few things that do ring true.Where the first person that takes over is Gerald Busby, who was leading black music at MCA at the time. And even though Motown had had a bit of its malaise in the 1980s, MCA did not, in many ways, it was seen as the leader in black music. And Bubsy was able to. Have quite a good amount of success there with all of the work that he had done.the thing is though, he had started to run into some issues because he was in this weird dynamic where this company, Polygram had owned part of the label, as did Boston Ventures, his private equity group, and Bubsy was at odds with the folks at Boston Ventures about. some creative control. And he had this quote where he says he'd rather quit Motown president than see the label become a cash cow for a huge corporation trafficking off of nostalgia.And that was a quote that was said back in the 90s just thinking about how. Similar, some of those quotes now come to today. And this was someone who was largely credited from helping to say blast black music from that disco era. But unfortunately, I think a lot of those tensions that he had had, at the time just made life a little bit more difficult for him at Motown.So he eventually we Left. And while he was there, he was able to at least get a few things under. Like he was the one that had brought in voice to men. He had Queen Latifah there. He had Johnny Gill, who was another artist at the time that was quite popular, but maybe hadn't necessarily lived on in the way.And his dreams were, he wanted to have Motown cafes, the same way you had hard rock cafes. He wanted to have the young acts going and touring around at different places to recreate that vibe. And this is something that we'll get into. I think we see time and time again, where these leaders have all these dreams and visions for what they see.Motown can be, but because of the powers that be because of other things, they just can't quite get there to make it happen.[00:38:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think that one of the things that set Motown apart early on, you know, as sets many startups apart early on, and many record companies are early on is that they were independent and they could do whatever they wanted.And, you know, Berry Gordy was, sort of like the unquestioned leader and, you know, things kind of, in the way that things kind of get done, let's say more efficiently, if not, more equitably in dictatorships, like he could just get shit done, move things around, have it happen immediately. And so when you started to have, you know, these corporate parents, parent companies, you know, you'd have to go through all these layers of approval to do anything.And, kind of like stop being able to be agile. and I think that's especially important in the music business when, you know, you have to. Not be reactive, but proactive, right? You have to be ahead of things. So, you know, if you're getting to a point where you're having to wait on approvals and things like that, you've already lost because you should have been out in front to begin with.[00:39:48] Dan Runcie: And this is something that I think plagued Motown time and time again, because Gordy didn't necessarily operate in this way. He had so many people that wanted to replicate what he did, but they didn't have the same parameters and the same leeway to make those decisions. As you mentioned, they're now working for corporations that now have their own vested interest.And to be frank, one of the tensions that we see often in music is that these brazen, bold leaders want to be able to take big swings and do things that are innovative and off the cuff. And these corporations are hard set pressed on efficiency. They don't want to see overspending. They don't want to see over commitments, or they want to be able to feel like this is being run in a strategic way.This is something that in the Interscope episode that we talked about, Jimmy Iveen struggled with this as well, even as recently as his tenure with Apple music. But this is one of those frequent tensions that happens with music executives. And we saw that continue with the person that replace Busby, which is Andre Harrell.We talked about him a bit in the Bad Boy episode, but Andre, of course, at this time was coming fresh off of Uptown Records where he was working in collaboration with MCA and he was able to build a little bit of his own fiefdom there where granted he still had people he had to answer to, but I think he had a pretty good relationship with the folks at MCA up until the end there.Then he goes to Motown and he sees this opportunity. And there's a few things that stick out about this because. As early as a year ago, he was starting to get rumored as to be the next person to then take over. But then he gets 250k as an initial announcement. He takes out this full page ad, New York Times.And then he has this ad that essentially says from Uptown to Motown, it's on. And it's him sitting in the back of the chair and you see a sweatshirt in the back. And people hated it. People grilled him. The way that they talked about him, the trades and even Russell Simmons and others coming in and giving him shit about it.He had pretty verbal flight fights with Clarence Avon, who was pretty powerful at the time. And Clarence even said he had swung on him at one particular point and was quite critical of him as well. There's this one quote that I think was really funny here, where this was from the Netflix documentary that was, The Black Godfather, which was about Clarence Avon.And, or actually, no, this is before this summer variety interview, but they talked about this as well. The doc, Clarence says, Andre and I didn't get along. And then he pointed to an image of the Motown boy band, 98 degrees. And Avon says, Andre wanted to send these white boys to Harlem to make them sound black.And I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. And it's a funny quote, because I do think that 98 degrees. Maybe didn't exactly have as many hits as they probably would have thought, but in Andre Harrell's defense, and sadly, but true, the mentality wasn't necessarily wrong because of the 90s, the most successful Motown act that you had was Boyz II Men, and we saw at the end of the decade that, what's that guy's name, the con artist that had the boy bands, Lou Pearlman, like, he literally modeled Backstreet Boys and NSYNC after How can I find white boys to men and make them see modern contemporary and make this happen?And that's how he was able to have success there. And that was before, what's his name? That was before Andre Harrell was really getting going. So he saw where things were going. But it just didn't click at the time. It just wasn't right. And obviously 90 degrees ends up having some decent success, but that's well after Andre Harrell had left the label.So he ended up leaving and the press was not kind to him. Literally headlines were. Andre Harrell gets fired from LA Times it's a type of headline that we probably don't see now when record label execs get fired in the same way. I think the industry is much more controlled in its PR sometimes to a fault, but it was very interesting to see that, come through. And another interesting quote from that, Lucian Grange had called the Andre Harrell at Motown relationship, an organ rejection. In terms of the relationship there.[00:43:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I mean, and it's kind of interesting if you think about, you know, around that same time. What was going on in the music business, what would have been a great fit at Motown that didn't happen, would have been to sign Eminem, right? I mean, rather than try to do it with 98 degrees, if you really want to go and sort of like figure out what the kids are listening to, and do the thing where you have a white guy making black music, like. Holy shit. There's Eminem from Detroit, you know, doing his thing. But, you know, I think it took different kind of Andre to pull that one off.So, you know, in a way well played, you know, I mean, in a way it was like Andre was maybe Andre Harrell was taking some risks, but he wasn't taking quite enough. Like, he wasn't going far enough. He wasn't going way out enough on a limb. So, if you were really going to try to read that Motown, then that then go all the way at the same time, though, I would argue.I mean, if you look back, it's sort of like what worked with Motown and what did it, I think one of Motown's greatest attributes is also a limiting factor. And that's the thing we talked about before it, it's a label, but it's also a genre. And so if you have Motown making hip hop, it's like, wait a minute this isn't Motown. Like this isn't the genre of Motown. Like this is not the thing that I heard at my aunt's wedding, you know, this is something different. So, I think that they got kind of caught in between and I know that they've done all this stuff in hip hop over the years and, whatever, but it still doesn't feel like quite a fit because Motown, I mean that, you know, Motown was Motown, Motown wasn't hip hop and, you know, maybe if it had started getting into hip hop in the early days of hip hop.you know, it would have felt a little bit different about that, but, you know, hip hop is Def Jam, hip hop is is Roc-A-Fella hip hop is Bad Boy, and I just, you know, for all the efforts that Motown has made to get into hip hop, I think, it, has had a hard time, you know, fully sticking in the way that it would need to for Motown to replicate its, early success.[00:45:51] Dan Runcie: And one of the things that I think that a lot of these post Berry Gordy leaders struggled with was... As you mentioned, yeah, with Andre Harrell or others, there was the desire and opportunity to be able to do more, but the combination of the corporate structures in place that just didn't give them the same freedom that a Berry Gordy himself would have had.And then secondly. The business structure of how Motown itself as a company was set up didn't necessarily allow that because even things like radio or promotion and things like that, they still relied on other labels under the corporate umbrella, even to this day to get some of those things in place.So it really wasn't. Given the same freedom, even though their name, especially in the late 90s early two thousands was used in, especially back then it was the whole universal Republic Motown group or whatever the amalgamation was at the time. It really wasn't given the same freedom as some of those other record labels were.And I think we saw those challenges come in from time with some of the other leaders as well, because. Afterward, after, Harrell left, you had George Jackson who was there, felt like a bit more interim there for a couple of years. And then you had Kedar Mazenberg who was there late 90s early 2000.And that was a bit more than Neo soul vibe. You had India, Ari and a few others, but he has this quote that he gave to the independent, 2000 where he says, but we're not going to dominate the pop charts. Like we used to, how can we, there are too many other companies out there for that. So please don't compare it to the Motown of yesteryear.This is someone that is in the leadership role saying that exact quote. like How do you get past that? And then he talks again. I think they made a comparison to Def Jam where he said, you know, Def Jam, it took 10, 20 years to get to this established guidance, the way that you did with someone like a Lyor Cohen.And you essentially had that with Berry Gordy. But again, Lior was doing this before Def Jam ended up, you know, becoming under the whole Island Def Jam group and everything happened there. After that, you have Sylvia Roan, who was rising up the ranks herself. Still one of the most successful Black women in media and music right now.She's currently at Epic, but she had her time at Motown as well. And I'm going to get into her because I have something I want to say for missed opportunities there. And then you get more recently to the era of Ethiopia Habtamirian, who was there from 2011. Up until 2022, and she's 1 of those that I do feel like was put in a pretty hard spot because on 1 hand, she was able to essentially double the market share.Thanks in part to the partnership that she had made with hip hop through quality control to be able to help. them succeed And this is especially when the Migos are first starting to pop off, and then that transitions into the success of artists like Lil Yachty and Lil Baby and City Girls and others. But I think that also some of the overspending and things like that were quite critiqued.And especially from a PR perspective, the same way I was mentioning earlier when. Andre Harrell's challenges were bright front and center for the entire industry to read. Ethiopia's necessarily weren't in the same way. And even in some of the aspects of her leaving, the media had they called it a bit more reflective of, oh, Ethiopia has chosen to step down.When, yes, that's true, but there was also a pretty large severance package from Lucian and others at UMG. And again, I don't think she was necessarily given as much leadership either, because Motown was kind of, and still is kind of under capital, but now they've essentially moved it back. They had announced that she was solely the CEO back in 2021, but that was a pretty short lived.And to be honest, it felt like. Yeah. 1 of those announcements that the industry made in this, like, post George Floyd era to try to highlight and support black CEOs, which was great to see, but she's someone that's talented. You don't want to see her just become a tokenized person to have this. So, even though, like any CEO, I think there was things you could point out that she probably could have done differently.Still wasn't given the most leeway to begin with it. Now we're back in this point where what is Motown who's leading Motown. It's essentially the subsidiary under capital, but it's now a brand. And who knows where things are going to be. And it's quite unfortunate, but given everything that we've said up into this point, it also, isn't that surprising just given the dynamic.[00:50:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, like you mentioned the the partnership with quality control. I mean, I think. That was a smart way to get more involved in hip hop because that was a brand that did have roots in hip hop more that, kind of resonated. and so when you sort of like, build as a partnership and look at it that way, it seems a little more credible than like,you know, Motown is doing hip hop now. so it's too bad that, you know, things kind of turned out the way they did, but, it's an interesting asset, right? I mean, it's a brand that has a lot of value. But it's not exactly clear, you know, how to sort of monetize it. And I think with Motown right now, it's like, it's probably about more, than the music, right?Like that's maybe where most of the monetization opportunity would be, whether it's, you know, Motown branded, you know, I don't know, films and, you know, I don't know, products, whatever the case may be. It resonates more, I think, than it does, as a record label. And people don't care so much about record labels anymore.Like we've talked about this, you know, in prior episodes, but it's not the same. You're not going to put on your record on a record player and see that big Motown logo on it, you're having something pop up your ear. And there, there's no visual, like, you don't know whether it's on Motown or Def Jam or Universal or Sony or, and you don't probably don't care.Right. I mean, and I think as things have kind of blurred together, genres are blurring together, you know, different, labels are gobbling each other up over the years, you know, people have just kind of like lost track and, you know, sort of like the idea of a label just isn't as important anymore.So, I do think that it's. a valuable piece of IP and, you know, there's things to do with it still. But, you know, I think, Berry Gordy certainly like squeezed, you know, all he could out of it and, did a great job of sort of ultimately profiting off of what it was that he built.[00:52:04] Dan Runcie: Right. Because what you have right now is this brand where they do have Motown the musical, which I do think has been pretty successful, both in the US and in Europe and elsewhere that it's traveled. but that's it. I mean, quality control partnership doesn't exist in the same way since they've been now bought by hive.Hopefully, Ethiopia and those folks were able to at least retain some type of revenue for helping to set the framework to make that deal possible, but we'll see I, where I landed with this is that. The way to quote unquote, I don't want to say save Motown because that can just seems like such a blanket statement, but if you were trying to improve it from its current inevitable state, it would be finding a way to spin off the asset and the catalog from Universal and having it be in the hands of someone else who can make it work.The challenge is Universal isn't going to want to give that asset up. That's one of their most valuable back catalogs that they have. So. I was thinking through it in my mind, the same way that you have someone like a Tyler Perry, who are these modern moguls that have a bit of that Berry Gordy vibe to them.The way that Tyler Perry is, we'll see whether or not he ends up buying BET, but could that same mentality be applied to a record label? And then with that, you're able to then build up your own promotion. You're able to build up your own talent, and then you take things in a slightly different way. I still don't think that guarantees success, but at least you shake things up in a particular way and you still give it that black ownership mentality.You give it a bit more of that independence and the autonomy and you could potentially see what happens because. We all know what the continued fate is as a legacy entity of a catalog holder that it would be under the UMG umbrella.[00:53:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. Totally agree.[00:53:52] Dan Runcie: And with that, I think it would be a good time to dig into some of these categories here. So what do you think is the biggest, this will may be obvious, but what do you think is the biggest signing that they've done or that Motown ever did?[00:54:04] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think I'd go with the Jackson 5 I mean, you know, although Motown did not ultimately profit off of MJ's solo career, in the way that it would have if it had retained him for a solo career, Motown did profit off of the association as he became the biggest musical star, but basically entertainer of any kind in the world.and, you know, going back to the Motown 25 moment, you know, other kinds of associations. So I would say like good process. Not really a bad outcome, but like signing the Jackson 5 could have been the path to also signing Michael Jackson as a solo artist. And then, you know, just because that didn't work out in the end, does it mean that that wasn't a huge signing for them?[00:54:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I was going to say Jackson 5 or Stevie Wonder, which is the one that I had and I say him because of the longevity because even when times were rough, Stevie Wonder still had arguably his best decade in the 70s But, he had a number of them that were there, especially in the seventies. I think that was his strongest run and he stayed through. And I think that in a lot of ways helped bridge the gap during some of those low moments when other artists did come and went. Did come and go. So that was the one I had there.What do you have as the best business move?[00:55:18] Zack Greenburg: Well, okay. This is something we haven't talked about and maybe we should talk about it but more, but here we are, we'll talk about it more now. I think it was Berry Gordy setting up, his publishing company. So, I mean, maybe that's cheating a little bit because it was outside of, Motown itself but of He set up Joe bet, publishing, you know, pretty early on. And he didn't realize, you know, his big payday for it until later 1997, but he sold it for 132 million for just for half of it. so the EMI, and then he sold another 30% for I think 109 million. And then he sold the rest of it for, something like 80 million in, what was that?It was like 2004. So, you know, we're talking like over a quarter billion dollars and that's not inflation adjusted. you know, for the publishing and that, you know, that dwarfed whatever he got for Motown itself. So, and, you know, think about if he held onto it until, the recent publishing Bonanza, I mean, I mean, it could have been close to a billion dollar catalog, right?I mean, you know, there's nothing, really like it out there. So. He was always very smart about ownership and I think Michael Jackson knew that and, you know, studied him as a kid growing up. And that's kind of what convinced Michael to want to own his own work, and also in the Beatles work, which then became the basis of Sony ATV.And that was another massive catalog. So, yeah, I think the publishing side of it definitely gets overlooked and, you know, was ultimately the most, financially valuable part. But, even though it was sort of a separate. Company, you know, I would argue it, for sure it wouldn't have happened without Motown happening.[00:56:51] Dan Runcie: That's a great one. And I'm glad you mentioned that. Cause definitely could get overlooked and doesn't get talked enough about in this whole business. I think publishing in general is something that people don't understand. And so they just don't, dig into it, but he wrote it. I mean, he owned everything.And obviously when you own the value. When you own something that valuable, it has its assets. And I think why publishing continues to be so valuable in the industry i

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This is the breakdown on Roc-A-Fella Records. Founded in 1995 by the trio of Shawn “Jay Z” Carter (the talent), Damon “Dame” Dash (the promoter), and Kareem “Biggs” Burke (the silent partner), it became one of hip-hop's most iconic labels.The label took time to develop. Jay's debut album, Reasonable Doubt, is now seen as a certified classic, but took time to get that recognition. It wasn't until 1997 when Def Jam acquired a 50 percent stake in the label and The Roc went to that next level.Roc-A-Fella then created Rocawear, Roc Films, and went on an unprecedented arena tour across the country — rare for rappers at the time. Other artists like Cam'Ron, Kanye West, Beanie Sigel, and Freeway joined the squad.. Despite the success, the founders grew apart, which led to its infamous split. To break it all down, I was joined by my friend and Jay Z biographer, Zack O'Malley Greenburg. Here's what we covered:1:20 Roc-A-Fella origin story7:21 Reasonable Doubt09:43 Friendly rivalry with Bad Boy Records12:43 50-50 deal with Def Jam15:59 How Roc-A-Fella's deal compared to others18:59 The Hard Knock Life Tour's impact 28:32 Expanding the brand beyond Jay Z 30:32 Why Dame and Jay's split was inevitable38:59 Artists taking sides44:21 Best Roc-a-Fella signing?45:22 Best business move?48:27 Dark Horse move?53:02 Missed opportunity? 59:07 Will Dame and Jay ever make up?1:00:45 Who won the most from Roc-a-Fella? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Zack O'Malley Greenburg, @zogblogThis episode is brought to you by Norby, your digital marketing Swiss army knife. Get started for free with a free 2-week trial (no credit card needed) AND get 50% off for 3 months after that. Start your free trial todayThis episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fmEnjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapitalTrapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital's free memo.TRANSCRIPT[00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves.I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things.[00:00:46] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.[00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a rewind. We're going back in the clock to the late nineties, early two thousands, and we are revisiting one of. The most iconic record labels at the time, the one and only Roc-A-Fella Records. Roc-A-Fella Records, is the record label started by Jay-Z Dame Dash, Big Burke, and went on to be one of the most iconic hip hop record labels and hip hop brands, and that's a key thing from this conversation.I was joined by my friend Zach O'Malley Greenberg. He wrote Empire State of Mind, a biography on Jay-Z, and he also wrote Three Kings that broke down Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, and Diddy's Business Moves. So he was a perfect person to have this conversation with. We talked about the highs of this record label, the lows, some of the best business moves where Jay-Z and Dame didn't see eye to eye, some of the dark horse business moves that they made.What was the best signing from Roc-A-Fella Records? Missed opportunities and more. If you enjoy the episodes we did on Cash Money and Interscope, this one will be right up your alley and we already know what it is when we're talking about Jay, Dave, and Big. So let's dive into it. Hope you enjoy it.[00:02:17] Dan Runcie: All right. We are back to do another breakdown on one of the most iconic record labels, the one and only Roc-A-Fella records, and I'm joined by someone who wrote the book on one of the most influential people behind this record label. Zack O'Malley Greenberg, welcome back, man.[00:02:33] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me on, Dan, as always.[00:02:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and with this one, I think it's good to start even before Roc-A-Fella records because this label was a long time coming and there were a number of things that Jay Dame and Biggs, the founders of this record label were involved before this. So set the stage. Where were we pre Roc-A-Fella launch.[00:02:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, so, you know, I think a lot of people forget, although Jay-Z is a billionaire now, a couple times over, back in the early nineties, he wasn't even sure that he could make it as a rapper full-time. So, you know, he'd appeared on a couple tracks with his mentor jazz. Oh, this great Golden Age rapper. He had popped up kind of here and there, but, you know, really he was finding that it was much more lucrative to be a hustler.And so he was increasingly making more and more trips outta town to New Jersey and Maryland and so forth doing his thing. And, you know, I think he really kind of saw music as a hobby at that point. so he, he did have, you know, a couple supporters, namely DJ Clark Kent, you know, one of these influential producers, at the time.And, you know, Clark Kent really believed in Jay when a lot of people did it. And so he kind of kept trying to convince him to give another shot, like he could do this as an actual profession, and finally convince him to sort of take this meeting with Damon Dash. So he thought that Jay-Z was this just like once in a generation talent, from the musical side, and that Dame was sort of this promotional mastermind.And then if the two forces kind of united, they could create something really special. So in my book, empire State of Mind, Clark Kent tells the story of how he convinced Jay and Dame to sort of meet up. And so Dame, of course is from Harlem, Jay's from Brooklyn. There's sort of like this New York City snobbery thing going on, you know, Manhattan folks kind of maybe look down sometimes on people from Brooklyn and so they get together and, Dame rolls in.He sees Jay's wearing a pair of Air Force 1s and he is like, okay, this guy's cool, you know, he has good taste in sneakers, so I, can do business with him. and that was kind of like, you know, the initial hurdle was, you know, overcome and off it went. And so they struck up this really productive partnership together where, you know, Dame would kind of, help Jay Z sell, you know, they would go around selling CDs outta the trunks of cars and stuff like that.they were trying to get a proper record deal. and they just didn't have, like, nobody was kinda like really into the whole jay thing at the time. And you know, if you think about the music that he was making, unreasonable Doubt, it's like very nuanced. you know, like a lot of words packed into not very many bars, you know, like the space and the rapidity of the, the flow was like kind of not what was happening at the time in the, you know, by this time like, getting toward the mid nineties.So, basically they decided to go and start their own, and they brought in green Bigs Burke, who was kind of a silent partner, you know, another formidable hustler in his own right. And, you know, so there was the, talent, the silent partner and, you know, the promotion guy.And you know, when their powers combined, they were Captain Planet or whatever they were Roc-A-Fella records.[00:05:42] Dan Runcie: And I think part of the thing with Jay-Z that made this unique was his age at this point as well, because by the time they start Roc-A-Fella, he's already in his mid twenties, which doesn't sound anything unusual now, but back then, the rappers that were blowing up were always teenagers.There were always early twenties. You think about Dr. Dre, everyone from NWA, you think about Nas when he dropped I Maddock or you look at LL Cool J. Everyone is a young cat. So for Jay to then drop his debut album when he is 26, Is an ancient man, a grandfather trying to get into this game?[00:06:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, it's like a 26 year old rookie in, you know, the NBA or in baseball or something.It's just like, you don't see it. I mean, al almost ever. And when it does happen, it's sort of like a journeyman, you know, like role player type but jay, you know, had just packed a lifetime worth of lyrics into this one album cuz he kind of viewed it as, you know, this was like a one and done, like a novelty thing.And, you know, he really fully anticipated, you know, kind of coming up from the underworld, dropping this gem of an album and then kind of like disappearing off into the ether, like Kaiser Souzai at the individual suspects. And that, I mean, that was actually his plan. you know, according to a lot of people who I talked to around the time.So, yeah, it was definitely not sort of the normal path, for creating an album. I mean, I think they thought that. You know, they could put out this album, it would do well and then, you know, maybe they would bring along other artists and he wouldn't have to be sort of at the forefront.Like he might just keep doing his thing on the hustling side or whatever. but obviously things turned out a little bit differently.[00:07:22] Dan Runcie: This album was also a bit of a slow burn from a success perspective. I know that many people now when they're debating the best Jay-Z albums, the best Roc-A-Fella albums.This one's always mentioned as well as a few others that we'll get into. But if you look at the commercial performance for this album, in the beginning, it was not that high. The same week that it came out, the Nutty Professor soundtrack sold more records than Reasonable Doubt. And around the same time, that summer, I'm pretty sure that Shaquille O'Neill's album, cuz he was putting out albums at the time, also sold more than Reasonable Doubt did.So extremely slow burn. And you mentioned something earlier about the hustle that I wanna tap into because this is one of the big value ads that Dame Dash had with this. He was relentless and we've all heard the stories. Many people that have met him have also seen what it's like upfront. A lot of it speaks to his success.But he was someone who was in many ways, notorious for going to the New York radio stations and giving them gifts, understanding, yes, this essentially is payola, but this is what everyone else is doing. This is what the people with the real money in the industry are doing. So he's leading into that as well.And you mentioned Kaiser Associates also makes me think about, there's one of the music videos that Jay had from in my Lifetime, volume one where, I forget which song it was, but the song essentially, you know, the music video essentially was a spoof, odd usual Suspects where he's impersonating the the Kevin Spacey, Kaiser Souzai character on it.Sorry for anyone that hasn't seen Usual Suspects for the spoilers I just dropped there. But there's so many things that I think tie in with that and just stay consistent with who he is at the time.[00:09:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think that whole album, you know, the aesthetic was very like, maybe not Kaiser Soze, but, you know, sort of like gangster movie sort of thing and, you know, all the album artwork, you know, it's him and like a fedora and black and white and all that kind of thing.and so, you know, I think that, he's been obsessed with mafia movies for like, his entire life and you don't hear it quite as much, you know, as more recent albums. But he was kind of like living this underworld life at the time. And so I think it really resonated with him and maybe in a way that, that it, it doesn't quite resonate now.[00:09:44] Dan Runcie: And I think too that was in a lot of ways the theme that we saw he did in the nineties. You definitely saw Big Do It, especially in the whole life after death era, right before he passed. And I think there were a few moments that gave him the initial bump. Even after having Reasonable Doubt drop.Jay himself was featured on the Nutty Professor soundtrack because he had the song with, Foxy Brown that was also on his album. And then he's on Fox's album, album a little bit later. Her debut, he's also on, what's the song that Jay oh, David Brooklyn's finest, on Jay's album.[00:10:18] Zack Greenburg: Going back to Callie was on there. Oh my God, what an album. Yeah. But yeah, that was not, I would say Jay-Z got the better end of the collabs. with, the Brooklyn's Finest. I mean, that is a classic. Clark Kent produce that one also. And, you know, that was kind of like, that was another funny story from the book, like, you know, that there was also a bit of a friendly rival, mean, like they were, there were buds and all like, Jay and, and Big, but there was like a little bit of a friendly rivalry between, Jay and Dame and Puff and Big, because I think, you know, like, so the Whole Bad Boy thing was more established, by the time that Roc-A-Fella Records came about, and so I think Puff was kind of like Dame Dash, like another dude from Harlem, are you trying to be me? Kind of thing, you know, and so in order to make that song happen, I think before Jay and Big were friends, Clark kept kind of tricked them into recording the song together. So he was in the session with Big, and then he accidentally played a tape of a track that he had that was just an amazing track and Big was like, that's great.I wanna get on that. and he was like, no, I'm saving it for somebody else. And things like, well, who the hell else are you saving it for? And he is like, my man, Jay, you know, he's amazing. He's a beast. and big's like, I don't who, what Jay who. and so finally like Clark Kent sort of like goded him into, unbeknownst to big, Clark Kent had arranged for like Jay and Dame to be in a car downstairs.And he was like, oh, I think he's actually just coming in. And so he went down and he brought him up and so like Jay went in and recorded his verses, I think right then and there. And he left spaces for Big to put his verses in. and when Big went in and he listened to it, he was like, oh my God, this guy's so good.I have to like, go home and really think about this, about what I'm gonna put in there in the spaces that he left for me. and I think after that they were really good friends. but you know, it's, that kind of like, good nature trickery, shall we say. that, you know, I think some of these circumstances happen when you got some egos in the building and, you wanna make some magic.And, you know, as I recall, you know, for the chorus, Jay and Big had like become fast friends and, so like, they're leaving the studio and Clark's like, you know, on the final day that Biggie came and recorded or whatever, and Clark's like, what should I do for the chorus? And they're like, just scratch something.And that, that was how it happened.[00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Classic. And that's such a New York story, and it's also such a 90s hip hop story in terms of how the industry worked. Having someone like, oh, so-and-so's just downstairs, they're gonna come up right now because you have 'em, man, how people worked. Things classic. And it speaks to where Jay was at the time too, because as we mentioned, reasonable doubt, slow bird took a while for it to get.The respect that it deserves. But then you go to 1997, he has, in my lifetime, and that album also Slow Burn and wasn't necessarily as highly regarded as Reasonable Doubt, but still had some songs. And you could tell that Jay was trying to navigate a few things, whether it was he had the flashy suit ever himself when he had the song Always Be My Sunshine.He's feeling that out. I mentioned he had the Kaiser Souzai spoof music video, but it really isn't until 1998 where things start to change. So a few things happen here. The album Volume Two, Hard Knock Life comes out. That song, Hard Knock Life changes everything for the trajectory of that label, and that's when they start the partnership with Def Jam.So let's talk about the Def Jam piece first. Can you talk a little bit about that one and break it down?[00:13:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So. As I recall, you know, in early Roc-A-Fella they had struck this, distribution deal. I think it was with priority. and you know, reasonable doubt was they had already been selling it on their own, sort of informally out of the trunks of cars.And then priority, you know, was distributing it. But it was kind of a disaster. They weren't paying Jay on time and, or maybe at all, at some point. And so he just kind of went back to 'em and was like, you know, if you're not gonna be paying me, or paying me everything, you're not paying me on time or whatever.Just like give my master's back and get me out of it. and somehow that's what happened. So that freed him up to be able to take this deal with Def Jam, where Def Jam bought a piece of Roc-A-Fella records. but again, you know, because they were buying a piece of it and not signing him to a deal. you know, he continued to own, you know, considerably higher portion of his own copyrights and, you know, possess more of the cash that came in than he would've otherwise. but you know, he already had the success. They already had this apparatus set up, so he had like, you know, he had leverage in a negotiation and I think, you know, even though his second album I think was kind of a dud and he would always, like, he has said in interviews that that's his worst album and the one that he'd like to have back.you know, he had some, heat, you know, with reasonable doubt. And then kind of like coming off the heels of Biggie's death and, being sort of like the heir parent. it was tight with Puffy who produced the second album, you know, for better or worse. But, you know, I think that really gave them sort of the ability to get what they wanted at a Def Jam, which was like, I think part of the reason that first album didn't do so well, and I think it was until fairly recently, his worst selling album, until sort of the back catalog began to catch up. But, what they needed was distribution those days was really important. Like you, you needed, you know, you could have Damon Dash, like Haranging, people at rec, you know, at radio stations all you want.But in order to really have the kind of, you know, national scale, that you need to be a superstar, at least in those days, really wanted to do with the label. So that's what they did,[00:15:59] Dan Runcie: Right, you needed someone that could get 500,000 units to 7,000 distribution points, and there were barriers to entry in order to do that.And yeah, to your point, I don't care how many bottles of champagne you try to give to Hot 97, that's not gonna make that happen without it, right? The thing that I always think about with this ever though, is the terms of this deal, because at least what we've seen publicly was that Def Jam had taken a 50% stake.In Roc-A-Fella records, and it was for one and a half million dollars. And that number always stuck out to me a bit because if you look at some of the other deals that had happened in that era, you had masterpieces distribution deal that he had done with the same priority records that Roc-A-Fella had their deal with.But Master P obviously had a much more favorable distribution deal with splits in his favor. And then similarly, that same year, 1998 Cash money, does their distribution deal with Republic Records? Of course, Def Jam is a different unit and Roc-A-Fella was in a very different place. And we know that Jay-Z had always talked about ownership and it was important to him.But it's a interesting reflection of just where things looked at in the landscape because it's easy to look back in Jay's career in hindsight and think that, oh yeah, his first album was a classic and then Hard Knock Life comes and everything is just up and up. But there was still. hierarchy and there were other artists that were getting more favorable deals, more ownership for their music, for their record labels.And Roc-A-Fella still got something that was somewhat favorable, but still not at the same level of some of those other people in the mid to late 90s.[00:17:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting point, right? I mean, Jay obviously is this brilliant businessman and, you know, Damon and bigs aren't too shabby either.And yet it was a good deal, but it wasn't, anything like, a cash money or no limit in terms of the splits, and what they were doing. So, yeah, I mean, I think to your point, you know, those other acts, had kind of like a more established operation, you know, Jay was one guy with one album that didn't sell very well, that was kind of critically acclaimed, you know, so it was like A bit more of a risk perhaps, on Def Jams parts, they weren't really risking that much capital on them. So, you know, I mean, and I guess I wonder if that initial deal had been more favorable for Roc-A-Fella, if they had managed, to have, you know, the kind of splits that Cash Money and No Limit had might they have stayed in business together longer? You know, in a way it's like if the pie that you have or like if the one big pie, and, you know, if you're a slice of the pie that you're sharing with your two business partners is that much smaller than it is, than, you know, let's say the Williams brothers were sharing a cash money, you know, maybe you feel, a lot more restless and, inclined to go elsewhere, but we can get to that later.[00:18:59] Dan Runcie: that's a good point too, because if Cash Money is still in business. And we know cuz we recorded that episode not too long ago, but Birdman and Slim are still getting tens of millions of dollars per year. It's essentially a cash cow asset that they have. Def Jam is still collecting for Roc-A-Fella, as is universal. And I know that Jay and Damon Bigs do have their splits, but it's not the same because they eventually did sell the other half of the record label to the parent company Def Jam. I think it was Island Def Jam at the time that that deal happened. But it changes the dynamics a lot. But with the story though, we are getting to the point where Roc-A-Fella is clearly on the way up.And I think there were a few things coming that did set things up for them. But one thing that I think was a big difference maker for them around 1999 was them wanting to go on tour and. Have their name out there. So 1999 they have the Hard Knock Life tour and at this time it was pretty rare for, all Hip Hop Act to have a nationwide arena tour that happened because at the time they had past shows or whether it was at Run DMC shows or other things in the late 80s, early 90s, and cause of violence and because of things like that, all these promoters and all these venue operators were so scared of hip hop.So you had Smoking Grooves and other festivals like that in the mid nineties where they always had to pair you with the R&B actor. They had to have two folks together. I know that Bad Boy had its, arena tours as well, but they always had the R&B acts that were there, so they needed to, they were really trying to do something different.But I think this is where Dame's Magic came to life because he was able to really control the narrative and be out in front with how they were making sure that violence wouldn't happen, whether they had their own security on top of whoever was there. They had the fruit of Islam that was at each of these shows standing there to have the, bodyguards there as present.When the reporters came into the trailers to see what they were doing on tour, there's this iconic video of Tie Tie and he has videos up and this VHS tapes up of, oh, you think we're just watching gangster flicks? No, here we got Goodwill Hunting right here. We got Brave Part, we got as good as it gets.Like we're here watching videos like anyone else. And with that and even, I think they did something that was either, either donating money or something as well cause in Colorado, because they had a show right around the same time that the Columbine shooting had happened there. So there were a few things they'd done there.And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped. Not just the Roc-A-Fella crew, but all the other folks that were associated with them that came along like Red and meth and Ja Rule and others. But then after that, we then saw the Up and Smoke tour. We saw Rough Riders and Cash Money go on tour. And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped propel them into that next level to continue to have a lot of that success.[00:22:06] Zack Greenburg: Totally. And you know, and I think it wasn't necessarily reflected in the bottom line. I mean, I don't remember what the gross was, but, you know, 18 million I think. Yeah. Like Taylor Swift probably grossed that in one show at,[00:22:20] Dan Runcie: I think he made that in two of the three nights at,[00:22:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely, definitely over a weekend in the Meadowlands, but yeah, she probably had definitely, let's say, definitely crushed it in her like little weekend did in the Meadowlands. But you know, and so obviously if you're grossing $18 million. You're probably only taking home, you know, 10 of that after cost, maybe like, probably more like, you know, I don't know, seven or eight. and then you're dividing that up amongst however many people. There were a lot of people on that tour for like a fair amount of tour days, so it did not work out to a lot of sort of take home pay per show, but it really kind of opened the door. I think in the aftermath of the death of Tupac, Biggie and like all of this, you know, sort of, like moral panic around hip hop and violence and all of the, you know, whatever Tipper Gore stuff, you know, that this was sort of like a reminder that like, yes, hip hop Acts can go on tour and it's gonna be fine.And like that, you know, that had been done in the past and, run DMC and what have you. But, you know, NWA had gone on tour and, you know, had a big national tour. So there were other examples before, but I think people were like, kind of freaked out about hip hop in the national zeitgeist at the time, and this kind of really helped to kind of reset things. And, you know, opened the door for other rappers, but, you know, for Jay-Z himself down the line, you know, I mean, he's been a really prolific touring act and I think he's always been really clever, about it because, he's like, even now, like he can sell out arenas, but, you know, he's not like, I don't know, he sort of can't necessarily do, he can't sell out stadiums by himself, that's for sure. And there was a time when he couldn't sell out arenas by himself. and there's probably a time when he couldn't sell Amphitheaters by himself, but he always goes around, he brings somebody with him and he's got a really good kind of, level of self-evaluation and he's like, you know, he doesn't let his hubris get in the way of like, I can sell out whatever, whatever.unless he knows he can, you know, he, he's very accurate in that assessment. And if he can't make it, then he just brings somebody with him. He brings Eminem with them. you know, he goes out with Beyonce for the stadium tour. So, you know, Justin Timberlake with him. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So in a way, I think that tour was kind of the beginning of that.And, you know, how he could, see some synergies by mixing and matching with other artists[00:24:35] Dan Runcie: And that tour too Hard Knock Life tour. He showed signs of that awareness there. There's this iconic clip when Jay-Z was on the shop a couple years ago and he's talking about the show. This was shortly after DMX had passed away and Jay-Z was going on tour in each of these nights after X and X's shows, you know, he's taken off his shirt, he's doing prayers at the end.So you have people that are laughing, you have people that are crying, then people that are screaming and then they come out and they're like, oh, now you go like pointed to Jay-Z. And I mean, one Jay's storytelling of that is good. When we post this episode, we'll definitely share this clip in there, but two, it showed this awareness that people have spoke about of, and it's also what you're saying, even if he may not have always been the central act and another running thing that people have said over the years, what year was Jay-Z, the top guy in hip hop?And I think that is a very debatable thing, but it's the longevity and that's the thing that speaks to it. And how he's been able to stay through that over the years. And because he was always that core piece, like we said, price is probably one of the reasons that they didn't get a no limit or a cash money type deal.It really was just him. I think there was that one R&B album that Rocefella hadn't released in 1997, but didn't really go anywhere with that artist. So things didn't really pick up until late nineties, early two thousands. And you start to see more of the artists on Roc La Familia, and they're really able to spread their wings in that way.[00:26:10] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, another thing to remember, at the time, you know, especially, I think it was 98, 99, that was when, you know, Def Jam. So I think Def Jam had already taken a pretty significant, institutional investor, but, they were selling the company or like maybe the remainder of the company or most of the remainder of the company.There's this really, really big deal happening. and I forget which sort of, European entertainment conglomerate was it Bertlesman or It was like, was, something that's since been reconstituted or, or whatever. But the, the deal was gonna happen and you know, the deal was gonna be for whatever multiple of revenue, that Roc-A-Fella had or not Roc-A-Fella, that Def Jam had produced in the prior year.And so for the, I think it was the calendar year of 1999. And so, Lyor and Russell just like leaned really hard on Jay and DMX and they were like, we need you to put out like two albums in 12 months because we're just gonna get a multiple of that. And I don't remember the exact advances that, that were given, but you know, I'm sure it was considerable.And so, you know, they were able to put out like each of them two really killer albums in the span of like about 12 months each. which is like kind of unheard of these days, right? I mean, Jay-Z goes, is like five years between albums now and, I think that was, volume two and volume three for Jay-Z.And I think for DMX, it's dark and.[00:27:38] Dan Runcie: Dark as hell and hot and then flesh and my flesh blood. And then, and those were like, like, and then there was X was the third. Oh, then there was X.[00:27:45] Zack Greenburg: That's right, that's right. So those were like, like two, like for each of them to[00:27:49] Dan Runcie: a year and a half spare albums.[00:27:51] Zack Greenburg: I mean, yeah, back to back, you know, man, like to have that much, sort of creative energy to do it so quickly, and to have it sell so well, I mean, it is quite a feat and you know, and they, personally enriched Russell and Lyor and Rick Rubin, like, I would say quite substantially cuz it just drove up that multiple.And, yeah, I think a lot of people kind of forget, how critical they were, you know, to that process. But it probably also caught thinking like, Why am I working so hard to make somebody else, you know, I'm getting rich, but they're getting wealthy and, I think the gears are continuing to turn for him at that point and he's like, Hmm, how do I kind of get to be more in their position, right?[00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Cuz I think at this time, this is when you start seeing more of the Roc-A-Fella expansions in a few ways. First Dame is already thinking about ways to extend this brand. You see Roc films, Streets is watching comes out in the late nineties and then they put out a whole documentary about the Hard Knock life tour as well.And they start selling that as the DVD Rocawear comes out. And we're gonna do a whole episode about Rocawear eventually, but, you know, Rocawear itself. And then you also just start to see more and more product coming from Roc-A-Fella that isn't necessarily from Jay himself. And I was looking back from a timeline.And this is one of the unfortunate things about Roc-A-Fella, we're gonna get to this, but right around the time they split, you could argue that they were just continuing to go up and up and up with the releases every year. Like this is the 12 month stretch that they had where I think they had the highest products.Starting in February 20th, 2003, you had freeway drops, Philadelphia Freeway, Dipset Drops, diplomatic immunity. Joels has his debut album. Jay-Z drops the Black album, Memphis Bleak drops his, and then top of 2004 Ye drops College Dropout, Young Guns drops their debut. And that's all in a 12 month span.That's some no limit cash, money level of dropping albums. And so there's so many hits and so many memorable songs that they had during that stretch.[00:29:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that if, you know, we were talking earlier about the splits and so forth, but it's like, can you imagine. If they had the kind of splits to catch money it had, when you have all those albums coming out and, you know, yeah, I think it really would've changed things.Not only that, but you know, to own the masters of all those artists, which you probably would've in those days. you know, to have like a hundred percent or something close to it on all those artists with all those classics. you know, it would've been very hard to walk away from, you know, as they eventually ended up doing.[00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And I think what you mentioned earlier, probably alludes to this, right? Because if there's enough of the pie to these split between the three founders and everyone else, and they're the one accruing the assets from what they have, then maybe Jay and Dame are more likely to figure out their differences in a way to make things cook because it's working for everyone.But when you're still paying Def Jam in on top of that, or you're still paying island def jam in on top of that universal even more money, it's tough to justify that. And I think this is a good time to talk about the split. The infamous split between Jay-Z and Damon Dash. You could start to see that the two of them were going in different areas where Jay-Z was wanting to be really focused in on what he was doing from a music perspective, wanting to expand there and wanting to just do different creative things.But Dame had his own approach, and we talked a little bit about that with, the films and the sports and other things too. But he also wanted to do things his way. He was starting to get a little bit more spotlight. And then there's that infamous clip of them at Summer Jam 2001, where Dame Dash is in his full element.And Jay-Z's just like expressionless. And that clip is often looked at as like you knew from this moment. That these two just were necessarily gonna be at the same page because this is 2001, Jay-Z's are drop about to drop the blueprint, his masterpiece. And granted, you know, he could have just been in the zone or whatever, but it's definitely an unfortunate thing because granted, Jay-Z was able to reach further heights, but you never know what could have happened.You just look at how much Rocawear ended up selling for you. Look at the continued success, the momentum, and I think what it boils down to is to. People that had different philosophies where it makes it tough. Jay-Z was a bit more focused on wanting to be rich. He was willing to do partnerships with others if everyone could eat and have a piece of the pie. Granted, he still wanted ownership, but as you've written about before, he has his perceptions on underdog brands and how he could move like a private equity executive and make the right investments. And even the m and a deals he's continued to do today, his live nation deal is the element of this.But Dame was a bit more wanting to be king. He wanted to have his stamp on things. And I think you see that even now today with Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash, this, like, it's very important for him to be able to have his kids and his other folks around him be able to work with him and be the boss, not necessarily wanting anyone to tell you what you can and can't do.And that infamous Breakfast Club interview that they had, I think it was 2015 when he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, well, they gotta report to whoever at Power 105 and that's their manager, that they're not a real boss, is an element of that whole dynamic. So it's frustrating that it happened, but it's also not surprising.[00:33:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Jay has kind of adjusted his views on ownership and he said recently, I mean, he's sold some of his big brands, or sold half of it into, a JV with like LVMH or you know, or whatever. And he's very much of the mind of like, well, I, you know, 50% of like a billion is a lot more than a hundred percent of, you know, a couple hundred million, and I think Dave, that's[00:33:51] Dan Runcie: that you did with Kevin Hart, right?[00:33:53] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. So, and I don't remember the exact quote, but maybe you could, maybe you guys can pull it up, but I don't think Dame really ever got that. He was always like, well, I want a hundred percent, you know, and so, you know, he ended up with a hundred percent of like, whatever, you know, seven or eight figure amount that he ended up with.But he could have had, you know, 50% or 30% or something of like billions of many billions probably. But you know, just to kind of like, I think there was a precipitating moment that sort of like was the end of, Roc-A-Fella a s it was, a partnership between the three of them.But it really could have been anything. it was headed that way for a couple of years. And, you know, I think what it comes down to, is that, I don't know. I mean, I think that Jay also recognized that Dame was very, very valuable. The skillset was especially valuable in the come up.And, you know, like when you are not well known, you need somebody to go in and yell at somebody at the radio station. you know, but then when you get there, you need somebody to like not yell at certain people, you know? And, when you get to that next level, and sort of Dame, you know, didn't adjust, To that.And, Damon was sort of Damon or wherever he was. And it was great in one situation, not great in another situation. So I think the precipitating incident was basically when, you know, after this sale, which ironically Roc-A-Fella helped, boost, you know, the Def Jam sale. There was a reshuffling of executives, which is like so complicated.I'd have to go back to that chapter of my book to, to look at it. But the gist of it was the role of president at Def Jam, opened up and, it was offered to Jay-Z. And so, you know, Jay-Z, this is something that he had sort of, it's this like great prestige job. something that he'd always been wanting.And I don't think he wanted it, like, this is my dream job that I've always wanted. As much as it was like, if I can do this, be a CEO, this opens the door to so many other things. And it will really sort of entrench me as not being pigeonholed as an artist. And, it was a no-brainer and of course there was no way to do this without, stepping on Dame's toes.So, you know, there's this whole great drama, and I think, you know, the wheels started turning when Jay-Z was, you know, on, on a yacht in the south of France with like Beyonce and Jimmy Iovine and Bono or something and, kicking it. And, you know, there's some executives there. Some conversations were had, I think at the same time back home, Dame, like elevated camera on to VP level at Roc-A-Fella without consulting Jay.And it was this kind of like big scandal and when Jay-Z came home, he was like, no. And he kind of demoted him. So there was some awkwardness there. but you know, I think then that Jay kinda like accelerated his, push toward this CEO role, and when he got it, it's like, all right, you know, sorry Dave, I'm your boss now.I mean, because of course Def Jam was, but Roc-A-Fella, there was really. There was no way for it not to be structured like that. so, you know, when that went down, of course, like Dame immediately, you know, quit or left or whatever, and, there was a hot minute where he started the Damon Dash Music group within Universal, but, you know, then he kind of like kept doing the same thing and kind of yelling at the wrong people.And, and so that didn't really go anywhere. And, you know, the thing kind of fizzled out and Jay offered to, I think he wanted to give, at the time, he wanted to give, Biggs and Dame, like all of his preexisting masters in exchange for exclusive ownership of Reasonable Doubt. they said no. but of course, you know, I don't know that the Black album had gotten as big, is it?You know, I hadn't like really fully blossomed into what it, what it ultimately was at that time. And there's like all this other, so anyway, I mean, there's a lot of like trades being offered and you know, people sort of like, you know, it's like the guy in your family in football league, your fantasy baseball league.You kinda like overvalue his own players. Think I've made this analogy before, but, dude, come on. Like, you know, you're running back, just got injured and offering you my extra running back for this wide receiver who you're not even music anyway. it didn't really work out.Everybody got all pissed on each other, you know, at the end there's bad blood. so th there's this great moment that Dame talks about how, shortly after all this went down and they're like in the elevator at, I guess the Universal Museum, that Def Jam was housed in. and Roc-A-Fella had been housed in or something.And they're like bumping each other in the elevator and Dame is wearing a state property shirt and Jay C's like in the suit. And Dame's like, man, you know, things are really different now. Like, dude, you changed, you know? so, you know, I don't know if Jay changed so much as like Dame didn't change, you know?you could argue the problem was that Jay changed, but you could also argue that problem is that, that Dame didn't. And, you know, I mean, to some extent like power to him, you know, be you. but Jay, you know, in the way that I think you know, he's constantly changing. He's restless, he's always, everything is a chessboard.He's always evolving, you know, I think ultimately there was no way to stay locked into a partnership with someone who wasn't kind of willing to change with them.[00:38:59] Dan Runcie: One thing you mentioned there made me think about how they think about things and where they are from a strategic perspective, Dame is very much your early stage startup guy.He's great for the pre-seed era. He's great for when you're even in the seed stage, maybe even series A, but once you get to that series B, C, you're starting to get some higher level executives. You're getting more talent, you're gone to bigger things. You can't operate the same way and no different. How those organizations often need to rotate and think about leadership.That's essentially what in many ways was the opportunity there at Roc-A-Fella. And there's nothing wrong with being very successful at that pre precede seed stage. I don't think Roc-A-Fella would've got to that point if it weren't for Dame hustling in many absolutely ways, whether it was on tour radio, and I think a lot of his success traits have been carried through and things we've seen celebrated and leaders in tech and people that do things that don't scale that very much is Dame Dash. That next level, though, is where things did get a little bit tough because the label's clearly getting ready to go to that next level, and they just had their tensions there.The thing that was unique though, about their tensions is that the artists themselves that were on Roc-A-Fellas started picking sides in terms of who they wanted to be with, who they were gonna side with, Jay versus Dame, and as you mentioned, Dame was the one that had elevated Cameron, who was the leader of Dipset at the time, to that VP level.That then brings everyone from dipset under his umbrella, but Ye, who had just dropped the college dropout and he was the one that was always trying to make it. He then signs with Jay, he also has a very memorable interview on the Breakfast Club where they asked him about this, and Ye was the one that was like, me and Dame we're the same. We think the same. This is how we act and go about things but I could learn more from Jay. He knows how to talk to people and he uses Jay's iconic lines. He's like, Jay knows how to move in a room full of vultures. That's just how he is and sometimes I be talking and saying the wrong things, which is a very ironic thing.I don't know if Kanye himself would admit that now, cuz that very much is a self-serving prophecy. I do think that there's a lot of truth in that, and just how things ended up shaking out for both of them. You saw the moves that everyone continued to make, and even though ye has definitely been quite polarizing in the public spotlight, a lot of the moves that he continued to make, whether it was with Yeezy or with the partnerships he's had, I do think stemmed from how he looked up to his own big brother in Jay.[00:41:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And he could have easily gone with Dame, right? I mean, you know, Jay wasn't so great to him early. Jay didn't believe in him as a rapper, he kind of wanted to keep him as a producer and Dame was, I think, the one who really advocated for Kanye as a rapper. but you know, I think Kanye, in his, you know, like more self-aware moments can say things like, oh, I think I could learn more from Jay.He brings something to table that I don't have, for Dame, I think the difference between Dame and Kanye is that they're very similar, in a lot of ways. But Dame isn't an artist. like, let's say a generationally talented artist. And so people will not put up with you if you're an executive. And you bring along those headaches in the way that they would put along, put up with you if you're a generational artist and you bring those headaches. And I think that was sort of like also, something that did Damon. And you know, in a way I think Damon Puff had a lot in common like they can just go in and kind of bulldoze their way into something.but Puff has that, that like other level where he can sort of like turn it up and down and, you know, to fit the situation. and is like more of a chameleon than Dame is. And Dame's just kind of dame all the time. so, you know, those are sort of the, personalized to play. But you know, like one person who gets lost in the shuffle here is Cameron.And because that was sort of the prime of his career that got like, entangled in this sort of higher level beef. but you know, you think about that album, come home with me and Hey man, like, I mean, Cam was really on fire, going into this whole situation. And then he got kind of like, I don't say like exactly lost in the shuffle, but almost lost in the shuffle.You know? and you just kind of wonder how his career would've gone, you know, let's say if, sort of he hadn't been like Dame's guy, you know, if what if he had gone to Def Jam? You know, what would that have looked like? could he have been on the level of somebody who signed? You know, like, I don't know.I mean, around that time, I think, Rick Ross signed a Def Jam, was it?[00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Ross, Jeezy, yeah.[00:43:43] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, like, you know, I think certainly has, you know, comparable ability, Tyler and those guys and, you know, I think both of them went on to have, You know, sort of like more longevity. but like, you know, I think, some of the Dipset classics and some of the solo stuff too, I mean, it's pretty unbeatable.So, you know, I just wonder, he's had a really good career, either way. But like, you know, I don't know that he ever like, broke through that next level, consistently, you know, to the point where he could just kind of stay there indefinitely. And, I wonder if he might have, if things had kind of gone differently in the Jay-Dame scenario,[00:44:21] Dan Runcie: The man had men wearing pink. He started his own fashion. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's true. Unbelievable. With that, I think it's a good chance to hit through some of these categories, cuz I think you're jogging my memory the few things here. what do you think is the best signing that happened under Roc-A-Fella?[00:44:39] Zack Greenburg: Well, I guess you can't count Jay if he, you know, co-founded Right Label.But, you know, I'd say probably Kanye. it's hard to top that. And when, you know, when you think about those first few albums, you know, I mean, he brought an element into hip hop, into the mainstream that just wasn't there. and, you know, I don't think, you know, if you hadn't had Kanye, in the pink polo, and you know, talking about his feelings, like, I don't know if you get Drake right.I think that he kind of changed the discourse. he brought hiphop to the mainstream and then he also like brought a different sort of voice to hiphop, And it was fantastically lucrative, obviously, for everybody involved. So, yeah, I agree with Kanye, for sure.[00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. And then just given the longevity there, even into the early 2010s, still putting out records under the Roc-A-Fella Records umbrella that still went back to them.And longevity that lasted longer than most of the people that were assigned to that label. So I think it has to be him. Best Business Move made, I know we talked about a few of them, but what do you think is the best business move that to come from the Roc-A-Fella era?[00:45:47] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. I mean, it's funny now that we look at it, I mean, in a way, know, the deal itself that set up Roc-A-Fella was not, you know, it wasn't a bad deal, but it was not the best, move.It wasn't the best kind of financial arrangement. you know, I mean, Rocawear is kind of an offshoot. Maybe that's cheating, but I'm gonna go with Rocawear because I think in some ways they're like, well, we can't get a hundred percent of the money on this thing, so we're gonna create an adjacent brand that's like very clearly associated with it that we can really monetize fully.And you know, I mean they got paid, I mean that, that company was doing hundreds of millions in revenue and they sold it for hundreds of millions. So, you know, I think they made more off of Roca wear, than they ever made off of Roc-A-Fella. So I'll go with Rocawear, we can talk more about it when we do the full Roca too.[00:46:36] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. I'd Rocawear as well. I won't go into the company itself cuz Yeah. We'll get into that in the next one. But I do think the good thing about that was it was a precursor to how artists now are thinking about their own revenue, their own business models, right? How they're using streaming, how they're using anything else that gives them a platform.Use that to grow your audience, use that to grow the awareness while generating money for that, establish the base. So some of those other business units were likely more influential, thinking about them doing the deals with Def Jam and then them having the hard knock life tour. But I do think Rocawear was the best business thing to come through there for sure.[00:47:18] Zack Greenburg: And just a s like a subset of that. I think the philosophy that was embodied by Roca wear, you know, the idea of like, they wanted to go Roca wear started because they wanted to go. there, there was this Italian, knitwear brand. iceberg. And they like went to the iceberg offices and said, Hey, can you give us some free t-shirts or something for wrapping about your thing?And they're like, or no, I think they wanted an endorsement deal. They wanted some cash for an endorsement. and then the executives were like, we'll give you some free t-shirts. And, Dave was like, this is stupid. Let's go start our own thing. So, but I think that was really the beginning of, you know, like, I'm not gonna give, free publicity to other brands.I'm just gonna go start my own thing and rap about it. Like other rappers have done it. But, it became so pervasive for Jay-Z's mindset. It wasn't just like, I'm gonna do my own clothing line and I'm sorry, I'm gonna do my own champagne. I'm gonna do my own cognac. I'm gonna try to do my own car.I'm gonna try to do like a freaking video game, you know, he was involved in so many things that kind of sprung from that. so I think the implications were much broader than just, the clothing aspect.[00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Next one here is the dark horse business move. So one that we actually haven't talked about, but I do think is one that Roc-A-Fella definitely lead into was the Jay-Z and Nas beef.The controversy that this was able to stem and start, I briefly mentioned Summer Jam 2001, but everything from then and just the drama from there, the two of them back and forth, Jay drop in takeover that, NAS drop in Ether, that whole back and forth was able to then create so much interest. They had all those beef DVDs that were g blowing up in the two thousands, I think largely came up cause of how they were able to reignite beef from essentially the biggest beef that hip hop had seen since Biggie and Tupac several years earlier.Yeah, it was huge and the level of. Bars that I think we're able to get the songs they're able to get back and forth. Just the impressiveness of Nas essentially taking on this whole entire unit by himself. People can debate whether or not who won and lost, whether you're looking specifically from a battle perspective versus who won in the long term.But we eventually see them come together on American gangster and they continue this f familiar relationship ever since. But I do think that this was the height of the time to really sell controversy. Obviously we saw 50 cent and others continue to do that too, you know, their own, putting their own flavor on as well.But I do think that Jay-Z and Nas Beef still was one of the little crown jewels that they had with this.[00:50:05] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, you could tell that it was like there was real enmity there. but also, you know, the fact that it, it never turned violent, I think was just. I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves.I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, but man, you know, like just being in New York and that time and like the Barbs going back and forth and man, I think that's the only time that, like a beef has gotten so nasty that, a rapper's mother has like, made him basically apologized for saying something mean, which, I think that was Jay-Z's response to Ether. I think Ether was sort of like the pinnacle of it and Jay-Z's response to it was like, not quite as good, like, how do you top ether? but I think Jay-Z's was just like, viscerally, like, you know, won't get too deep into it because if, Jay-Z had to like, call in to apologize for it, you know, I dunno if we can even talk about it on a podcast.But yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved. And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things.and then, you know, like he really was music first all the time. And, you know, I think some people thought that he would never really kind of blossom as a businessman, but then, you know, he became sort of the leader, within hip hop entering the venture capital world and, you know, created this great, Queensbridge Venture partners and, you know, invested early and just about every startup you can name and has had all kinds of fantastic exits.And, you know, I think it's so funny that Jay-Z then started MVP, you know, Marcy. So it, it's like definitely like a nod to Nas, you know, each of them naming their venture fund after the project where they grew up. So, I think that's super cool. And, you know, they still like drop these little subliminal, I don't know, like references, where you could tell they're kind of like tweaking each other, just like.You know, like sibling rivalry kind of thing. which is I think, really fun to watch. And, you know, I think that there's some friendly competition around deals and so forth these days. But it's just, it's so fascinating to like, watch the evolution from this real knockdown, drag out, very personal beef, that occurred, you know, to now like, sort of like comparing deal flow.And I think it speaks very positively toward like, the evolution of the business of hip hop.[00:53:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely. You think about things that they wrapped about in their most recent, songs that have been popular, right? Like Nas's song where he calls himself Cryptocurrency Scarface, or Yeah, yeah.Jay-Z. what was that line in God did with Khali where he is like, oh, we had cap tables, not that cap table, or something like that. I mean, he's clearly leading into that stuff. What do you think is the missed opportunity if of any, from Roc-A-Fella besides the split, cause I know we've talked about that, but there any other missed opportunities, especially from that 96 to 03, 04 range?[00:53:37] Zack Greenburg: I think it's Armadale Armadale, like, and you know, that kind of came to be, I think of anybody that was more Biggs's pet project, than Jay or Dame. Although, you know, Jay was kind of trying to make it happen. He would, he had it. If you recalled the MTV Unplugged album, which as actually might be my favorite Jay-Z album of all time. It's kind of cheating cause it's not a studio album, but, it's so good. He's backed up by the race anyway. He's like, some point he's like, I need to stop for some Armadale. I need an army break, you know, he was really trying to shout it out everywhere he could. But already when they started doing that, you know, they were on the outs I think.And, I think Jay-Z wasn't fully invested in it because why would he get fully invested in it? And then another thing that he was partners with Bigs and Damon, I don't think anything against Bigs, obviously. And I think they're totally cool now. And they've, been doing some stuff together more recently.but like, why would he go do that when he could just wait and then do something on his own? But, you know, I mean, Armadale could have been cRoc, right? if they'd done it right, there's no reason that it couldn't have been. I mean, it's the same formula. It's like European unknown, whatever.And then, you know, put it in videos, put it in songs, and, you make it, you know, whatever it's gonna be. And you know, we've seen what Jay has done with Deuce and Armando Biac, so we know he can do it. It's not only Puff who can do it, only a few people who can do it. Levelly can do it, but like Jay and Puff can do it and done it. And Jay could have done it with Armadale, just, you know, At the timing just didn't quite work out.[00:55:03] Dan Runcie: I think Armadale had one memorable shout out from the Jay-Z song. It was, excuse me, miss, right where he is talking about Armadale popping off. but that's also the same song. I think he gave Cristal a pretty big shout out there where he is like, it's not Cristal, it's Cristal, right? But then a couple years later, he is like, no like obviously we're done with Cristal because of, you know, comments, racist comments that the founder or the CEO had said at the time, my missed opportunity is one that highlights something that I think Jay-Z did well, but it probably could have done more of.And that's movie soundtracks. If you ask certain Jay-Z fans, I do think that they have American gangster as one of their top Jay-Z albums, as they should. It's a great album. I honestly think the album's probably even better than that movie is in particular points. But Jay-Z, so that movie, that soundtrack comes out 2007.He missed, I think an entire wave of times when movie soundtracks, in my opinion, were even, were just bigger deals than they are by even 2007 and even later on. And now I think it's very hit or miss that you could even get a soundtrack to that level. But especially during the Roc era. And I know that he had songs that were popular on the, but really being the mc behind an entire soundtrack in that type of way, I think could have been there probably could have been more opportunities to do something like that earlier on.[00:56:26] Zack Greenburg: Oh, I like that's a really deep cut.[00:56:28] Dan Runcie: So a few more things here on Roc-A-Fella, Well, we've seen just continued spats back and forth. Not necessarily jabs, but just comments back and forth between Jay and Dame. It's been nearly 20 years since this split. We've definitely seen more from Dame than Jay, and it's one of those things where it does become a bit sad to see and frustrating to see at times and not be expecting to be best of friends.We have seen Jay-Z say things that are quite complimentary. When he got inducted into the Roc and Roll Hall of Fame, he did shout out both him and Biggs and say, Hey, this wouldn't have happened without either of you, regardless of what had happened, you know, in our past. Gotta give you guys both shouts for that.But then we've also seen Dame say things during the years, and I think he's. Alternated on whether or not he's wanted to speak on them and stuff. But it's one of these things that is a bit frustrating to see because I think about it when I think about NBA players and how they've had issues over the years.Kobe and Shaq, of course, infamously, they continue to talk about each other for years and then eventually they came and they had that sit down chat on TBS, right? Where they're talking back and forth. If they and Dame ever did something like that, they don't even have to go do it on some platform. They could do it on their own thing.It would be box office. It would be great to be able to see that and just see how, then hear them talk things out. Because even another NBA thing, Kevin Garnet and Ray Allen of course said, had their infamous dispute because Ray Allen went to go join the Miami Heat. Kevin Garnet, very intense, hated that that was their rival.But then after Ray Allen had walked past him at the 75th anniversary thing last year, that's when KG was like, okay, what if Ray Allen passes the same way, passes away the same way that Kobe Bryant did? I would, yeah, be very upset with my

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Our guest today on The En Factor is Jazmine Valencia. Jazmine started her career as a media intern for Island Def Jam Music Group in 2007, she has since climbed the corporate ladder becoming the Director of Digital Marketing for Island Def Jam in 2012. Today, she is the President of the New York-based music and management firm, JV Agency, which she founded in 2015. Since founding JV Agency she has been featured in Forbes Magazine and has worked with artists such as; The Killers, Fall Out Boy, Avicii, and Shawn Mendes. Her ultimate mission is to bridge cultural and geographic divides between makers and users. She uses technology as a catalyst for positive change while leveraging a vast reach to give a platform to connect.

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Everybody's got something to say about Cash Money Records and the brothers who co-founded the label —Bryan “Birdman” Williams and Ronald “Slim” Williams. To paint the full Cash Money full picture, good and bad, I brought on Zack O'Malley Greenberg who has interviewed the brothers at-length while working at Forbes.Cash Money has one of the deepest catalogs in the game with several classics. And unlike some other upstart hip-hop labels, Birdman and Slim maintained control as they rose up. Their 1998 distribution deal with Universal is hip-hop's Louisiana Purchase.But we can't ignore Cash Money's lows either. There is a long, long list of artists who claim they were not compensated fairly by Birdman and Slim.Zack and I go through 30 years of Cash Money as a business, its competitive advantage, and what comes next now that Drake and Wayne are gone from the label. [1:44] Is Cash Money the greatest hip-hop record label of all time?[7:34] What people sleep on about Cash Money[11:01] Cash Money's history of not paying artists [16:52] Did Cash Money succeed because of Birdman and Slim or despite them? [19:29] Biggest signing? [20:29] The 1998 Universal-Cash Money deal [25:31] Lil' Wayne's mixtape run[29:03] The benefit of partnering with Republic Records[31:49] Bidding wars for Lil Wayne, Drake, and Nicki Minaj[33:21] Connection with New Jack City [40:56] Cash Money catalog valuation ?[43:00] Lil Wayne's beef with Birdman [45:48] Can Cash Money strike platinum again? [50:44] Birdman's love for music [56:08] Hopes for a Cash Money reunion tour and biopic [58:24] Who “won” the most in Cash Money's history?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Zack O'Malley Greenburg, @zogblogEnjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapitalTrapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital's free memo.Transcription[00:00:00] Zack: You know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get universal to, to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate, but you know, I mean, you could say that, that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up.[00:00:37] Dan Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.[00:00:57] Dan: All right. Today's episode is all about the one, the only cash money records. I got the one and only Zack Greenberg here who has reported on this company many times before we ran to this company and the business moves they did in our Top 10 Revolutionary list last year. So Zack, welcome back. I'm excited for this one.[00:01:18] Zack: Always good to be here with you, Dan. [00:01:19] Dan: Yeah. So for the folks listening, we are gonna do this in a few ways. We got a bunch of categories here that we're gonna run through, just evaluating Cash Money as a business, some of the highs, some of the lows, and just where they stand overall. But I think it'll be great to kick it off with the question that we often hear from folks is Cash Money, the greatest hip hop record label of all time? What's your point? What's your take?[00:01:44] Zack: How, man, you know, I mean, I think it's sort of like, any of these greatest ever are you talking about, overall body of work or sort of like, you know, The label at its peak. But you know, I think you gotta take it in an overall body of work, you know, type of thing. You know, it's hard to top Def Jam, I think, you know, if you were gonna go with an overall body of work, hip hop, legacy. But, you know, I don't know other than that, I mean, it's hard to say that there's anybody who you'd put above cash money, I'd say. Especially something that is, you know, really artist founded in that same way. I mean, you could talk about Bad Boy, you could talk about Rockefeller. But I think that, you know, Cash Money has staying power. You know, through Drake and Nikki and Lil Wayne and so forth, you know, in a way that, you know, I would argue that a lot of these other labels haven't, and, you know, who else can say that they've had Drake for that long? And I guess he's not there anymore. But man, that was pretty recent development and it's been a pretty great run. So, you know, to go all the way from the early nineties, you know, through basically now being relevant, stacking up all that catalog, you know, it's certainly, if not number one, it's, you know, gotta be top three, if not top two.[00:03:00] Dan: Yeah. So my answer is Def Jam as well, and we'll get to Def Jam in a minute. But, the case for Cash Money is this, and I know a few people have said it. Irv Gotti recently said it. Russell Simmons himself said that Cash Money was the greatest hip hop company that has come through. But the case for cash money, you mentioned it earlier, the fact that they did it while owning the core asset and the music and still doing that moving forward says a lot. Not something that can be said about Def Jam, many of the others that would be even in the conversation. I think even with a newer label at Quality Control, they've still done it while owning it. Well, at least up to this point from some rumors that are happening. But I think that's one case for Def Jam. But then I think of the continued run of success from everything that happened in the nineties from I guess we could start with like juvenile drop in HA in 98 and then pretty much everything from Drake's last Cash Money album, which I believe was Scorpion. So if you're looking just at like that run from everything there, that is such a strong hit rate. And I think that's the thing too that I would give them over Def Jam is the hit rate of who were the artists we signed and what was their likelihood of success and they were just able to do it. Even with the imprints, I mean, I think major record labels. So wrong with so many imprints. I just never worked out and for them to have, whether it's Young Money or even the smaller moments with the best music or with Rich Gain, there was always something there. And even though there was some conflict, and we'll get to that, I think that's the Cash Money case. The Def Jam case though, I think this is where I think of course Def Jam did end up becoming a major record label, so it's a little bit nuanced there, but I do think you have that eighties run Beasties LL Public Enemy. You got the nineties run with all those artists too. Especially looking at what Red Band met the man DMX. I feel like they had New York on Locke and then two thousands, the Rockefeller partner. Murder Inc. The video games, I mean, it's, I know the last decade hasn't been there, but it would be tough to not put Def Jam up top, but I understand if some people would consider Def Jam a major as opposed to, you know, an independent. So, I get the nuance there. [00:05:10] Zack: right, right. And, and being, you know, fully owned by a major as opposed to Cash Money, which really has distribution agreement. You know, and you could look at, you know, I guess Def Jam was sold in chunks, but the total amount that sold for, you'd have to adjust for inflation and stuff. But I wonder how that would stack up against the current value of cash money today, which, you know, it's incredibly driven by the copyrights that they still control and, you know, definitely hundreds of millions of dollars. You know, if you look at, Lil Wayne kind of quietly sold his The Young Money, Cash Money Partnership for a hundred million bucks a couple years ago, that was before the catalog boom, got really crazy and then kind of died down again. So, you know that that's valuing what Birdman and Slim Own, you know, just on the Young Money, Cash Money side of the business, you know, at nine figures. So there's, you know, there's a lot more to the company than that, although that's, you know, that's kind of the gold line. But still, you gotta think that, you know, this is still, you know, sent a million dollar business and, you know, I'd be curious to see what a proper valuation, you know, what it would look like against the total value that Def Jam got, you know, in terms of dollars over the years. But, you know, when you think about who was hottest and what record label was hottest at any particular point, Yeah, I think probably the peak was there was that year that Def Jam was, you know, getting sold or the second half of it was getting sold. And, Lyor basically said to Jay and D M X, like, let's have two albums this year. And, you know, because the valuation is gonna be based on revenues, not earnings. And like, the more you can sell, the more we get. And so, you know, that moment at D M X at his peak, and you know, Jay, I think, I'd say at least at his commercial, you know, record Sales Peak, you know, as an individual artist, you know, that was about as hot as, as it could ever get for, for any record label, I think. [00:07:08] Dan: That's a good point. So I guess if we were to compare Def Jams 98 and 99, like that run to Yeah. Cash Money, and I know there's a few runs you could put in there, but from an overall commercial perspective, it would have to be 0 8, 0 9 20 10, I would probably assume, because you get. Carter three, and then you get, you know, Drake's debut, Nikki's debut. I feel like it would probably be somewhere in there. [00:07:34] Zack: Yeah, that's probably pretty close. I mean, that was a lot, you know, that was a lot of concentration within a couple year period as well. You know, and I think the other thing about Cash Money, that maybe people sleep on to some extent is, you know, just like the efficiency of the label, especially in the early days. And, you know, of course we can get into some of the issues with paying producers and so forth, but, you know, they really had a system and you know, it was going and finding artists that were bubbling up, you know, first in the New Orleans area. I mean, this is in the nineties, and, you know, and then kind of just plugging them into the machine. Right. You know, put them with stable producers in-house, get Manny Fresh on there and, you know, it was not like a, you know, high expense kinda situation. Like maybe you would've seen with Def Jam or, you know, some of the New York, LA labels, it was just like, you know, you know, probably low, low cost, high output. You know, like there's a high margin business, low overhead, you know, it's lean and mean. So I think from, in that regard, Cash Money, you know, it might have been, it might have been the best business, you know, out of any record label. Right. In terms of sort of like efficiency and profitability and stuff like that.[00:08:47] Dan: That's a great point because if you look at that vibe, I think that was the vibe for the South overall. We saw that with no Limit as well, just with in-house production sheep, that production does almost everything and the music videos aren't flashy and the fact that I think they stuck with what they do and what they work with well, and eventually I think collaborations came, but that was something that they were hesitant about as well. Just thinking about juvenile dropping 400 degrees, and I'm going back to that just because that's the first album that comes after that 1998 Universal deal, which we'll talk about soon, but, that album, I'm pretty sure the entire production value for those music videos probably costs less than one of the suits that Puffy and Mace wore in the music videos. or, yeah, Jay-Z's Sunshine Music video, which I know has been talked about for years on end, but that's what the vibe was. There were no Hype Williams music videos coming through Cash Money. Right. At least at that point. I know they came later when Wayne blew up further, but that's what they did. They stuck to what they did and it worked. It worked so well. [00:09:55] Zack: Warren Buffet would love Cash Money. [00:09:59] Dan: Oh yeah. He loves little cost.[00:09:59] Zack: Cash Value. Value, cash value investor. Right. Early cash money would be the Warren Buffet play.[00:10:06] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. And the thing is too, you talked about it earlier, just some of this things leading up to the big deal that they had, but even back in those early days, even before the Universal deal, Birdman and Slim, the co-founders of Cash Money Records had a history of legal issues with artists and not paying artists on time. And I actually have a list here, and it's probably an incomplete list, but artists that have had some type of dispute or issue with Cash Money records when it comes to payments. So I have Lil Wayne, Pharrell, Clipse, David Banner, Bangladesh, the producer, at least five or six artists before 1998, Wendy Day, who's not an artist, but one of the attorneys and people that helped make this deal happen. Behi Turk and Shal and Jazz Prince, of course himself. Tiger, Manny Fresh, and I'm sure I'm missing people from that list. [00:11:01] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a long and storied list of people to have disputes with and, you know, it really is something that goes, you know, hand in hand with success.You can't ignore that history. So, you know, I think it is important to remember some of the context. You know, these guys were coming out of a completely different world. You know, and they were hustlers. They were legit hustlers in New Orleans. And, you know, in doing some reporting, you know, I verified it. I mean, you know, they were the real deal. They moved things over. They went legit. They became record moguls and Bird Man's Case became a rapper himself. And, you know, they were not people who had dealt with, you know, sets of books, right? There was not really necessarily like bookkeeping apparatus in their form of business. So, you know, I think there was an adjustment period that, you know, let's say perhaps went on for too long in terms of, you know, getting things papered up and straightened out. But, you know, I wrote a big story on them in 2019 for Forbes, where I went down to Miami and spent some time with Birdman and Slim. I talked to their lawyers a lot. I talked to Wendy Day. Spend some time in the studio with them and you know, I mean, everybody of course has, if you ask people in the Cash Money camp, they're gonna have their side of the story. If you ask whoever they're having the dispute with, you know, they're gonna have their side of the story too. And you know, obviously when there's smoke, there's fire, there's a hell of a lot of smoke when it comes to not getting paid on time. But… [00:12:29] Dan: What would you say is the Cash Money side of the story, though? The Cash Money is this it?[00:12:33] Zack: They, you know, started out as people who had not had formal training in business, doing business with a lot of other people who had not had formal training in business, who were represented by people who had not had formal training in business. And so when you go back to some of these early documents, it was not properly papered over on either side. And so there's a lot of question over, you know, who owns what, you know, I don't know that anybody who was involved in some of those early deals really, you know, had a full grasp of sort of, you know, music copyright and publishing and, and master recordings and all that. I mean, you know, it's not like an intuitive business, you know, it's like, wait, what? There's two writes to every song. They've like, there's a publishing and a recorded music. It's separate. How does that work? So I think a lot of that was, you know, kind of like if you go back the nineties and early nineties, especially when they're getting started, you know, before the Universal deal there was just really like, you know, I would imagine a lot of handshake deals, a lot of just, you know, kind of like, let's see how, how it goes sort of stuff. A lot of, you know, here we're gonna give you a bag of cash and you do you give us this beat or you give us a verse or whatever. So, you know, it makes sense to me that it might not be papered up properly. But, you know, the fact that that's continued, you know, so far into the future, you know, that's another story. So, you know, what they did say was that, you know, after, and we can talk more about this Universal deal, but after the Universal deal started and then, you know, as it continued to evolve, you know, to where Universal got an even bigger cut of, you know, distribution fee or like an even bigger distribution fee than it had signed up for in the beginning. Universal took on more and more of sort of the back office function. And so, you know, some of the more recent stuff is, you know, a little bit more papered up properly. So that's the Cash Money side. But, you know, it's funny, I mean, when I did this story and I reached out to all these folks, you know, what I got was like a no comment, which says to me that, you know, things have been settled up and they kind of don't want to get into it anymore. Right. Or maybe there was an NDA involved. But yeah, a lot, a lot of smoke. A lot of smoke in that area, for sure. [00:14:42] Dan: Yeah, the NDAs are key. I remember there was one of the people that I had mentioned earlier that I was going to have on the podcast of Trapital, the interview timing didn't work out, but that was one of the first things they said. If you have any questions for us about Birdman and his relationship with this artist or anything like that. No, we're not answering it. And I was just like, all right, noted. Like, and I feel like that's kind of RANE with a lot of this, but I think they and Birdman and Slim specifically in an odd way. It wasn't even just to them alone. I feel like there was this ethos of, you could almost put Suge Knight into this same category as well, but these people that were cut throat with business folks that they were doing major deals with, whether it was Suge Knight with the folks at Interscope or Birdman with Universal, I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna take what's mine. And rightfully so. They kept ownership over what worked for them and they did that, but they kept that same energy with a lot of the people that like worked with them on the other side too. And that's the piece of it that while it was frustrating to see there are actually some other sides of this too, because even the fact that I think we can get into it in a little bit, but just some of the artists, they were able to sign how they went about that. As frustrating as it was about them not paying artists, like there not every aspect of the business was and is predatory. So that's one thing that you know started to come up more and more as once you get past the salacious parts of the details and stuff, you're like, okay, no and no different than why you went down there to report them. Right. There is nuance and there are a number of things to dive into. For sure, for sure. So shifting here, one of the other things that I've thought about, we talked a little bit about what set Cash Money apart. We talked a bunch about the backstory and the bad rep, but the next thing up here is about Cash Money itself and whether or not you think that it succeeded cause of Birdman and Slim or it succeeded despite them. So thinking about this hypothetical world, if it even is possible, other folks that would've had this label in their hands and what things would've looked like, what's your take there? If we're really isolating them as business leaders.[00:16:52] Zack: I absolutely think it succeeded because of them. I mean, did they get in their own way some of the time? Absolutely. But I think, you know, anybody who can run a business that goes from like the early nineties in an informal economy, you know, in like the Louisiana area to being this global thing, to this day that is still, you know, very much at the forefront of an industry. I mean, you know, like they gotta be doing something right. You know, 30 plus years on the staying relevant and, you know, from like the early days Hot Boys to like the late nineties and, you know, remember Big Timers and Oh yeah. Still flying, all that, you know, heyday as we were alluding to, and sort of like the late s apparently, you know, 2010s, you know, of Cash Money, Young Money with Nikki and Drake and Wayne. Even coming through to, you know, to you to say Scorp. I mean, that's a really long run of relevance and you know, have that, I mean, yeah, like I said, they gotta be doing something [00:17:53] Dan: Right. Yeah. I think it's because of them too. I will. Because as much as there are issues, and we've talked about a lot of them here, There's so much of this that would've succeeded with folks, other folks in charge, because there are a lot of record labels from the South that tried to do what Cash Money did as well. And a lot of them came and then most of them went. And the fact that we're having this conversation and not having it about them is part of it. And a lot of those record labels had talented people as well, but things just didn't carry over. They may have taken, you know, a bigger deal to get more money upfront, but then the hypothetical is, let's say it was in the hands of someone else that wouldn't have been able to push it forward, then it becomes part of the Island Def Jam conglomerate and then just kind of gets mixed and mixed. And then it becomes one of the many labels that you hear about where it's like, oh yeah, whatever happened to this one or that one. And I think it took what could have been easily, because there would've been enough meat on the bone if we just talked about Cash Money from the early nineties up until, let's say the mid two thousands. Right. And I think that's, inflection point that we can talk about in a little bit. Even that itself was a great run itself. And then you look at the second half of the career from like the mid two thousands on, that's a whole other historic record label. They have two of those under the same house. I think it's because of them and as much as it can be frustrating to hear and see and, you know, unlikely there's some critical things. But let's jump into that now though, because I think one of the questions we have here is the biggest signing that this record label has had. What do you think is the biggest signing for Cash Money?[00:19:29] Zack: Oh man. You know, I think probably easy answer is Drake, but you know, I would actually say Lil Wayne because if you don't have Wayne, I don't think the Drake thing happens, you know, and really Lil Wayne from such a young age going all the way back to the hot boys and, and you know, coming through. All those Carter albums, you know, like he's the backbone of this whole operation, you know, musically, sonically. And I think without him you don't get everything else that comes along. What do you think?[00:19:58] Dan: Yeah, it's Wayne too. That's who I have. I know that Drake is the highest commercial artist. If you were to look at all of the numbers and I think without him, the past decade would've looked very different. But we would still be having this conversation in some form. Likely if it wasn't for the past decade of Drake, it may be a bit more truncated. But we may not be having this conversation at all if it wasn't for Wayne. So I think it has to be Wayne there. What do you think is the best business move for Cash Money?[00:20:29] Zack: You know, I'm gonna go back to that first deal that they struck with Universal. I was in the early nineties at Wendy Day, who he mentioned earlier. It was sort of like a go be who helped, you know, really get them, you know, kind of set up properly with this deal. But you know, they negotiated it and they wouldn't take anything less than something that they felt was an incredible deal. And, I remember the story that Slim told me as they went in, they sat down some mid-level executive at Universal and low-balled them to straight up buy half the company. And so he and Birdman just got up to leave. Then Doug Morris walks in and he was the head of Universal at the time. Comes in with another colleague, Mel Lo winter and Slim members, you know, Doug saying, Hey, if I were you, I wouldn't sell my company. He comes in and offers him 30 million advance just for the privilege of doing business. And, what does Universal get a 7% distribution fee, which is not a lot. So kind of almost doesn't make sense from Universal's perspective unless you think about it in terms of market share. Market share is so important when you're the biggest record label because there are all these great things that happen when you have the most market share. There are all kinds of rights that are assigned based on market share. Like anytime there's, you know, a mislabeled song that gets played or gets spun,and this happens a lot, the metadata in music is a disaster. So if, you know, there are these huge pops of sort of like unresolved money and you know, what they eventually do is they get resolved down by market sharing. So if you're Universal, you know, you get the land share of that and there's a lot of other things, a lot of other places where calculations are done based on market share. You can also brag and say that you're the biggest stuff like that. So, you know, certainly it was worth it for Universal to come in and especially, you know, you think about at the time, You know, hip hop was still at a nascent stage and particularly hip hop in the South was like, not even really on the map for Universal to be able to come in and have this connection was really great for them. But, yeah, I mean, what a great deal. 30 million bucks. You don't have to give up anything. You just give, you know, just give a distribution fee and frankly, you would want your stuff to be distributed by this, you know, enormous record label anyway, so that you could expand and get bigger and better. So I think hands down, that's it. You know, that didn't stop, that there were rumors, you know, that they were even bootlegging their own music, like out the back or wherever, so that they didn't have to pay the 7%. But I, you know, I don't know. I mean, that's that talk about, you know, efficient business. But, you know, I think you go back to that deal that kind of laid the groundwork. Cause if they had given up half of their company way back then, I mean, you see what happened, Jay-Z he up, you know, a huge chunk of Rockefeller early on and. And I think was never really that incentivized, you know, to make that his main thing anymore because, you know, he'd given up such a big chunk early on.[00:23:29] Dan: Yeah, it's one of the best deals we've seen in music and one of the best deals we've seen in hip hop over the past 30 years without question. And the fact that they were able to get everything you mentioned, plus 2 million advance for three years. They kept ownership of the Masters too. And that's the thing that, as we talked about, Birdman and Slim are still collecting on that year after year. So it's up there. It's incredible. And I know that there were other labels that tried to do the same, but just couldn't. I think part of the reason is that this goes back to them focusing odd, what works for them. They had a unique sound. Universal saw this as their entryway to the south in an authentic way because back then, you know, the south was still vying for dominance. And I know that, you know, things were happening at LaFace, but this was different. The New Orleans sound was different from what was happening in Atlanta at the moment. And this gave you an entry path into that. So it was big time. [00:24:27] Zack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I think, you know, also 30 million back then, I mean, probably more like 50, 60 million when you talk about inflation. But you know, I would, to our earlier point, you know, did Cash Money succeed? You know, or despite Slim and Birdman, you know, that's situation where, you know, obviously I wasn't there and there wasn't a video of it, but, you know, when you sit down with Slim and Birdman, like you can get the sense that it would be tough to negotiate with that.You know? I mean, Slim's sitting there, he's like 10 feet tall. He doesn't really talk very much, you know, and Birdman, he can get pretty loquacious, but like, uh, he, you know, when he wants to, you know, be kind of stone based, you know, I mean, he can, he can have a great poker face. So I think, you know, if you're some executive, you're going in and you're trying to get them to sell, and they have really no incentive to sell, and they're sitting. Just like, Nope, we're good. You know? I think that that leads you to offer them some crazy deal, like the one that Universal offered and so I really would chocolate up to some very good negotiating, on their part as well. [00:25:31] Dan: Yeah. You need to be able to negotiate to pull off hip hop's Louisiana purchase. Got to at least one half. Absolutely. At least one half of it. Yeah. So, yeah. The other thing that I did have was a dark horse move and a move that doesn't get talked about as much, and as much as that move does get focused on the one dark horse that I did have is the, well, I guess too, but let me focus on this one. I would say that the mixtape strategy that they had with Lil Wayne in the mid to late two thousands, even though cash money had ownership of the music, even though this, I think that worked so well. One of the questions that we have is just how well did this company record label transition from different stages of music, whether it was from the CD era, ringtones or ringtones, to streaming it, Cash Money knocked it out of the park. With each of their albums sold, especially when they did this deal at the height of the CD era, when the music industry was struggling in the mid two thousands and they were trying to get people to buy CDs. They were just like, Hey, let's give away the music for free. And Wayne was rapping over other beats. He was in his bag more than anyone, and from dedications to Drought, all of those, just so many classics in there that I think real Hip Hop fans and folks that were following Wayne were following even more so than the next album. So all of that speaks. Lil Wayne being able to sell over a million albums in the first week when the Carter three drops in 2008, which is still a very tough time for CD sales to even happen. So that whole run and just the thought to do that. And granted, I think some of this may have been a bit more on Lil Wayne's push himself, especially because at that point he had his own young money imprint. But all of this is happening and you know, Birdman and Slim had a problem with it. They could have said no. But I think the fact that they leaned into the change that was happening, you already saw what 50 Cent did with his mixtapes in the mid two thousands. You get drama, you get the other folks in the south to be able to help make this happen. And I think it worked out well for them.[00:27:34] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point too. So, you know, I mean, I guess when you have a label that has been that successful, that long, Yeah, there should be a couple different options for what the best move was. Yeah, I like that as a sleeper pick. [00:27:47] Dan: Yeah. And Lollipop is the best selling ringtone of all time too. over 5 million ringtones sold, and I mean, ringtones, were selling for like three bucks each to that point. So I mean 15 million just from folks wanting to, you know, have, you know, that little jingle on there, Motorola razors or whatever the hell people were using at that point. But, what was your dark horse? Oh [00:28:10] Zack: Oh man, that's a really good question. I don't know. I mean, I guess it was just so clearly the Universal deal to me. But, you know, and Drake wouldn't really be considered a dark horse candidate, I guess you could say. As time went on, you know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get Universal to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give us some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate. But you know, I mean, you could say that that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up and you know, there was a lot of smoke, like we said, but you know, nothing ever, like the house never burned down. So, you know, maybe, maybe those kinds of arrangements really kind of help prevent something like that from happening.[00:29:03] Dan: And I think that back office piece also just makes me think about the broader partnership and the expertise that they were able to lean on. And a question that I actually didn't explore, but now I'm thinking more about it, is how different do we think that the Universal partnership would've been, let's say Cash Money had partnered with another label under the Universal umbrella? Because obviously part of this is very close. There was Universal Republic at the time and they've been hand in hand working with Monte and Avery Lipman ever since, and they are two of the most highly regarded executives in the game that have now being, year after year after year, the label with the number one market share. And part of that is because of Cash Money itself, but it's also because of all the other stars, even outside of that label, they have been able to bring it to, as opposed to many of the other labels in the Universal Umbrella or the umbrella of Universal Music group labels that have not had that consistency. So I also think there's a dynamic there where, let's say there's another world where cash money was under capital or cash money was under some of these other labels that have struggled to stay relevant, what that would've looked like.[00:30:10] Zack: Yeah. I mean, I think if you, if you kind of need to go back to Def Jam, you know, some of the back and forth that Def Jam has had over the years. It gives you an idea of, or even as like a top label, the kind of trials and tribulations you might go under. But you know, when you're coming in, you know, going directly to Doug Morris, you know that that gives you a lot of leeway, a lot of leverage. You got that line straight to the top. And, you know, even with somebody like Jay, it took him, it wasn't until, you know, I don't know, when he was dealing directly with Doug Morris, when Doug, this is, I think around the time of Blueprint three, and Jay had that line. I gave Doug a grip. I lost the flip for five stacks. He could have the album. They bet 10 million on a coin flip and like, you know, one way or the other. So, you know, but Birdman we're doing that like, you know, 15 years earlier, having that kind of direct line. So, you know, again, I think going straight to serve them incredibly well.[00:31:09] Dan: Definitely. Yeah. Another, another piece too. So, two other, like sonically three other dark horse candidates, I'll bring 'em, but they're all under the same thing, was Bird Man's ability to win bid wars and win huge bidding wars, I think is an underrated piece of this record label. So I'll bring up three of them. First one, go back to 2004. So this is around the time thatCarter came out and Wayne was considering to leave Def Jam, and this was around the time that Jay-Z had just became president and Jay-Z pushed hard, make that happen and couldn't leave cash money for Def Jam. That was the thought, right?[00:31:43] Zack: Yeah. Yeah. Carter boys, and there were all these, you know, kind of …[00:31:49] Dan: Yeah, they're trying to push the whole Carter board thing and yeah, Birdman was like, all right, come through. I'll give you your own imprint and you are the president of that imprint and let's continue this thing. And that obviously sets up young money and then the next 15 years after that, right. So he does that. Yeah. And I think that's huge because then that sets the stage for the bidding war for Drake, because Drake drops so far gone beginning of 2009. And this is like, you know, everyone is trying to, it's like when Yaba sweepstakes we're seeing in the NBA right now everyone wants this person and everyone is going after them. I mean, truly Greenwall Lior, everyone was trying to get 'em. And it was that connection that Drake had with Cortez, Brian and Jay Prince Ja Prince and that whole crew that I think eventually helped keep him on the cash money roster there. So that was a huge one. And I think we saw something similar with Nicki Minaj as well. A couple months later. Everyone wanted her to beat me up. Scotty the mixtapes were hot and he and Wayne, Wayne was like, no, I want her to be the, the first lady of the label. That was the whole thing in the two thousands, right? Everyone wanted to have the first lady. You saw it in the nineties, right? But like everyone wanted to declare and elevate this person and rightfully so, but like that's who we had. And then we obviously saw the beginning and the middle part of that next decade. Just go on one of the all-time runs. So Bird Band's ability to win against the biggest people in the industry for record label that his men, you know, his brother own is really impressive for sure.[00:33:21] Zack: And you know, it served Lil Wayne well in the end because Young Money became something that he was able to sell for, you know, about a hundred million dollars for his stake later on too. So, you know, keeping that ownership as opposed to just chasing the biggest advance time and time again we see in hip hop. You know, it's so important. But, you know, I was thinking the other night, it is funny, like everyone has watched New Jack City, and it had been ages, ages, ages. And if they reminded me, I mean, how much of the whole Young Money, Cash Money situation is modeled after elements of that movie. I mean, even just like, The name Cash Money or C M B Y M C M B. The shirts, like the shirts, are incredibly similar that, you know, a lot of the lines, even the Carter, you know, the albums are named. I mean, the Carter was the building, you know, where Wesley Stein's character was like running this whole operation you know, that's kind of like another interesting element to the whole, you know, to the whole narrative. Like, you know, these guys coming out of Louisiana, you know, had their eyes up on this very New York kind of, you know, almost role model, for a business. And, you know, they had been hustlers. They were kind of modeling themselves after these, you know, fictional hustlers in New York and, you know, and then in a way out hustled sort of like the New York record label establishment. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, you know, little side bit of color to the whole story. And, like a bit of irony as well, you know, when you talk about, South versus, New York kind of situation too. [00:34:59] Dan: And I think that also speaks to some of that mentality too, because here you have Birdman that was getting inspiration from a black crime movie. And I think a lot of the ways of him doing business are very much central on, okay, I wanna support and uplift the black community, do what I can here and grid. And I think, you know, part of how he was able to do that has, you know, been quite controversial just with certain artists he's had on. Yeah. But still, I think that ethos stems back from ownership in trying to keep things in-house as much as you can. And it took them a lot to even partner with other artists from other parts of the countries and stuff like that, that I think you saw with Dino Brown and how he was in that movie and how he carried versus I think someone like Jay-Z who record label Rockefeller named after one of the great white business magnets that you had in this country. Right. And so many Jay-Z bars, whether it's Black Axl, Rose Black, Kirk Cobain called me this. I feel like, you know, people always get on Kanye for some of that. Like always trying to like be okay. I'm, you know, the black version of whatever X person. But I think Jay-Z, you know, also had a lot of that too. And then I think also looking at his business mentality, a lot of his success came from his huge and lucrative partnerships with established companies in this space. So the inspiration I think also became kind of telltale sign for the type of businesses these types of folks ended up creating too. [00:36:23] Zack: Yeah. And you know, I mean, you know, brown was a really ruthless character. And you know, I think there's like the money and the success that's glamorized. But you know, it's a gritty movie. I mean it seems like he is not a likable guy in the end. You know, without giving too much of the plot, I'm sure everybody's seen it, but like, I was like, wow. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be wanting to model myself after this dude. You know, he's pretty brutal. But, you know, even on the, you know, kind of the lighter side, there's a scene where he's like giving out turkeys at Thanksgiving. Yep. And you know, the Cash Money guys always give out turkeys in New Orleans at Thanksgiving and I wonder if they got that directly from the movie. You know, cuz so many of you know, from the Carter. You know, the c n b kind of, kind of like whole, you know, ethos there. I wonder how much of that they just pulled directly from the movie, so…[00:37:16] Dan: Oh, yeah. I could definitely see that mentality too. And speaking about it, you know, full circle. I could also see Birdman having a bit of that cancel that bitch mentality too, in short situations.[00:37:28] Zack: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, and they won't talk about that part of it, the interviews maybe, but you kind of get the sense of like that's where the negotiation and the cash element of the Cash Money comes in. Yeah. [00:37:42] Dan: The aita literally held people over the balcony of a building to get what he wanted. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that came through to fruition. But next category up here. So missed opportunity. Is there anything that you look at that you're like, man, obviously it's an overall successful company. Is there anything you look back on about what if they did this differently or what if they did that differently?[00:38:02] Zack: I think the number one thing I wonder is what if they had sold the whole thing, you know? A year and a half ago, could they have gotten just an insane multiple? I mean, you know, you're seeing like Springsteen staying and all these guys getting hundreds of millions of dollars for their catalogs. So, you know, I get it. And there's, you know, catalogs, hip hop catalogs are valued differently from rock catalogs. And also one of the benefits of rock catalogs is they're usually, you know, written and owned by, you know, all the rights are with the band. There's not like a million different producers coming in. It's not as complicated. So like, you know, they can sell the whole thing, you know, a hundred percent of the rights and you don't have to, you know, it's not like you're just buying like, you know, I don't know, 30% of this and 50% of that and whatever. It's, it's not this complex web, let's say there may not be as many things that haven't been papered over as there were with Cash Money, but man, you know, there were some pretty insane, numbers flying around and I really wonder if, you know, if they had, been applying some of, you know, 20 or 30 x multiple. To whatever they were pulling in, you know, which is, you know, they can just sit there and make, you know, tens of millions of dollars a year, just off of this catalog. I mean, so what would the market have been if they had went and sold the whole thing at the peak of the catalog? Boom. That's what I really wonder. [00:39:21] Dan: That's a good one. So I guess some high level back of the envelope math on that. So let's say that the peak of the catalog boom was like December, 2020 maybe, and then like, you know, into the spring of 2021 and we definitely saw some 30 x multiples there and at least the last public number I saw, and I think you had this in one of your latest articles as well, but that Cash Money's Masters generated around 30 million annually, or 20 to 30 million. Was that the number?[00:39:49] Zack: Yeah, I think it was at least 30. And you know, cuz Bird, like most of hey Birdman, you know, has been making like close to 20 million a year, for a while, give or take. And you know, most of that is just, you know, the catalog. So yeah, I mean that's just his cut. And then if you figure you double that for Slim, yeah, probably, you know, it was around 30, 35, something like that, so, you know. Yeah. I mean, are they gonna get a 30 x value even at the peak? I don't think so because just hip hop wasn't getting that kind of valuation. I don't really understand that because everybody's like, oh, rock and roll music gonna stand the test of time. It's like if you ask the average 20 year old who Bruce Springsteen is, they're not gonna know. I mean, so I would argue that hip hop is actually gonna be more valuable down the line. But just the valuation, you know, that's not what people have been paying for. So even at the peak, you know, I, I don't know that I saw any valuations anywhere near 30. I think Kanye was shopping his catalog at one point and wanted a 30 x multiple, but, you know, didn't get any bites. So I think it comes down to like, yeah, what kind of multiple could they actually have gotten? [00:40:56] Dan: Yeah, because even more recently, so yeah, we're recording this now. January, 2023, there was a report that just came out about Dr. Dre selling a collection of music assets that I believe are worth different multiples. But the number that I heard from that was, They generate around 10 million per year and that he wanted 250 and he's getting just over 200 million or somewhere between that. So that's around a 20 x multiple for a deal. That sounds like it was still coming underway in 2022. So if you were to put that multiple on, let's call it 35 million for maybe what Birdman and Slim have collectively, then that is you're talking $700 million. So that's a pretty sizable number, not a billion. But maybe if there are some concerns about, maybe there's a bit more of a split of who owns what. We didn't even talk about publishing right now, but there may be a split too, especially if everything was captured. and even thinking about quality control, for instance, and I think they got around 400 million, 300, got 400 million, but this was last year. So I would assume that 500 to 750 sounds, if I heard a number there, I would be like, sounds about right. If I heard a number lower than that or higher than that, I would probably be surprised one way or the other. [00:42:15] Zack: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that makes sense. And it's not just one artist, you know, obviously it's a whole bunch of artists and a bunch of pieces of different artists. But I think another thing, and this is maybe one of the reasons why the hip-hop valuations are lower, is like when you have all those producers, it might not be as easy to get, you know, to get clearances for using stuff in commercials and that sort of thing. Whereas if you buy a hundred percent of the rights, there's no question. Right. And so I'm not even sure if somebody owned 1% of, of something, whatever. Like I don't think they would have some, like, veto right. About the song being played in a commercial. But, you know, when you start to have so many different parties owning bigger stakes, a particular song, it can get a little convoluted and, you know, I do wonder if that's a big part of it as well.[00:43:00] Dan: Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah. Cuz I think sampling also is a huge piece of that as well. The missed opportunity for me, this is a bit more of a specific one from like a timeframe, not like a specific move, but Birdman and Little Wayne not settling and squashing the beef, the issues that they had in the mid 2010s. I think we lost out on Wayne. I know Wayne was in prison during part of this, but we lost out on his momentum. We lost out on a lot there because I feel like a lot happened from the Carter four coming out in 2011 to the Carter five coming out in 2018. I believe. There was so much back and forth. There was so much drama. You know, Drake was going on his all time run at that point. Nicki was doing the same. And the fact that the signature biggest artist is literally tweeting out, I want off this label, but it's not that easy. Or sending these messages out in the middle of Wayne and Drake having their tours and him still being on albums and trying to figure out how to drop things.I think it was obviously a great decade in run, but I think it could have been even greater if they were able to solve some of that stuff and figure it out. [00:44:11] Zack: Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, that that was like, it's a long time to be going between, proper albums, you know, so, and I think that was a really interesting time in the music business. And, I mean, the music business changed completely right from, from 2011 to 2018 from being, you know, oh, this new streaming thing is gonna be important to like, you know, it is the entire business basically. So, you know, and I think that an artist like Wayne, you know, as somebody whose music translates really well to, you know, to that medium. And, you know, as we know, hip hop is a monster on streaming and, you know, tends to do really well. So I would've been really curious to see if he had been able to continue that momentum, you know, just how much bigger he could have gotten in that period of time too.[00:44:57] Dan: Yeah, definitely. The next piece we add too, I think we talked a little bit about this just in terms of how did the label handle the transitions? And I think you just mentioned it there. They were able to do a lot of it well, especially the mixed day piece and the ring toes. And then I think a lot of it laid the work for streaming and Drake is streaming, did a lot of that, the Cash Money labels. So I think that worked. But this next question is interesting though, because it's been around three years, I think it's been at least three years since you did your deep story, the Forbes cover story on Cash Money, where you went down and interviewed them. And then I know it's been four years since I had written a piece around the time that Drake had completed Scorpion and we knew that it was going to be, or at least I thought the future may be bleak. And I think the question that you pose into the piece was, can they strike platinum again? It's been three years since now. What do you think? [00:45:48] Zack: You know, I don't know. I mean, the rules for platinum, like what constitutes platinum have changed so much that, you know, all it takes is, you get, you know, one hot signing and they do really well on streaming and suddenly you have a platinum whatever. And, you know, it's like, okay, I think that, you know, Drake is gone. Wayne is gone. When I went down there, they were really big on blue face and Jack Reese, you know, I don't know what either of them are turning out to be like, I mean anywhere near Drake, Nikki, Wayne, et cetera. Jack Reese is the king of R&B though, right? That was the whole thing too. So what I'm gonna go with, no, I don't think they will begin Drake Platinum. But I would caveat that by saying it doesn't matter because they can just sit back, and collect these checks. And that's gonna happen. That'll happen even if, you know Drake and Nikki and Wayne retire. I mean, their back catalog stuff is still gonna be a gold mine. And you know, when I was down there, what they said was that they're forever in business with Drake. But they wouldn't get more specific. And so what I took that to mean was, you know, at the time, you know, he was kind of an ex extra kidding himself. But even once he's gone, they're still sitting on these, you know, their share of the copyrights that will be, you know, Drake is a streaming king and they have a big piece of that. So, yeah. Do I think they'll strike platinum again? You know, probably not, but I don't really think it matters. I don't think so, what are they gonna do? Like what are they gonna do? They're gonna sit back and collect those checks. Yeah. [00:47:26] Dan: Yeah. I came to the same spot as well. I guess platinum in the purest sense of having a chart hit. Sure. There could be a legacy hit that gets, you know, some viral thing on TikTok and then that becomes a hit. Like, I don't know, I don't know if I like slow motion singles, like juvenile when platinum, but I feel like that's the type of song I could see go viral and some TikTok thing and then bring new, that's one of my cat favorite Cash Money songs. And I feel like I could see something like that happen. But I feel like you were kind of posing it more so in the moment of looking at these runs of like late two thousand, late nineties, early two thousands, that Cash Money is like a platinum moment or mid two thousands. Wayne's mixtape ran late two thousands, early 2010 or to mid 2010s. Young Money rises to the highest of heights. I don't think we'll see that moment again. And it's crazy cuz I think there's times where maybe things could have happened. You had the rich gang moment where he looked like he was so close with Young Thug. And I feel like especially in 2014, people expected Thug to go on to that superstar level and still be very successful. But I think that the stock for Thug at that moment was a little higher than it may be actually reached. And I think some of Thug's proteges kind of reached the heights that we thought Thug would've reached at one point, just in terms of a commercial success perspective. But it just never quite happened. But again, they own this. It's not like they missed some opportunity. This is something that is literally generating tens of millions per year and that's not changing anytime soon.[00:48:54] Zack: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it's funny, they have, I guess just to sort of like switch gears a tiny bit, but you know, last moment when they said when Birdman and some said they're forever in business with Drake. It wasn't in Miami, but I met with them for some follow-up questions in New York. and they have, like within Universal's building in Midtown, they have a Cash Money conference route. Like there are actually these, I mean I don't think it's diamond play, but the door handles are giant dollar signs, like the Cash Money logo. And, and it looks like they're diamonds in the dollar sign and whatever it is. But, you open up the thing and you go in and there's like all these plaques on the wall and it's just a conference room that's always there. And it's sort of like their designated conference room when they, when they cut the tat. And I remember, yeah, we sat down in that conference room and I really tried to press them on the Drake thing. And I mean, if you dig up the Forbes story, we did a video too. And there's this great kind of tense moment where I'm like really kind of pushing them about it and they're like, we're forever in this with Drake. And like, that's it. And it's clear that's all you're gonna get out of that. But, you know, so, in terms of striking platinum again, yeah, I mean, I could almost envision a scenario where Drake like does the Super Bowl and he plays some, you know, catalog hit that never went platinum. And just purely by the exposure of people hearing it be like, oh man, listen that again, it just suddenly goes platinum again. You know, or for the first time. But yeah, short of that, I know I'm gonna agree with you. I think probably not again, but that it doesn't matter anyway. [00:50:32] Dan: Yeah. So we have a couple questions left here. This one, and I think it's maybe similar to the fourth you're bringing up, but if you were in Birdman and Slim's shoes today, is there anything that you would be doing differently?[00:50:44] Zack: You know what, I think I go back to that question of like, would you sell the whole thing? Especially if the prospects are kind of dimming a bit and, you know, it's like, I don't know though. I mean, you know, it's like if you're getting up there in age, like would you sell you, you know, you got this great house that you bought, you know, you got this great penthouse apartment in New York that you bought. For like, you know, a hundred thousand dollars in, you know, 1982. And, you could probably get, you know, I don't know, 10 million bucks for it. And then you could just like rent and do whatever you want and you know, for the rest of your life. But like, you don't really need the money. Like, you're fine as it is, like you sell it. Like what would you even do with the money that you got? You really love living in that apartment. Maybe you just stay. And I think that's kind of the point. Like, just remember being in the studio with Birdman and he doesn't need to be doing this. Like, he doesn't need to be running around with Jack in Miami trying to make him the, the king of r&b or whatever. But he truly loves it. Like you, you can tell that he's passionate about it and. After the interview was over, and I wish I had this on tape, but we're just like a dozen of us sitting there in the room. And, Birdman, he goes, Zack, why do people think I'm scary? And I remember he said, he was like, really pointy moment. He's like, I'm respectful. You know, I'm not a clown. I don't turn tables over. I don't scream and yell. I'm respectful. Why are people so afraid of me? And I thought for a minute and I said, you know, as like, look man, like, to be honest, I think the base tattoos really are kind of like off putting some people who are not used to that sort of thing. And, he was like, yeah, I've been thinking of getting them removed. You know, I think it'd be better for business. So, you know, it's like there's still this element of, you know, even though he's made it and he's got everything he wants, there's still this part of him that came from a different world. That, you know, he's kind of like still stuck between two worlds, between the world that he came up in and the world that he can afford to live in. And, I think, you know, where he feels at his best is in the studio. So why would you sell that whole thing? Why would you, you know, I mean, why would you kind of give that up? And I think Slim likes it too. And you know, they have this really funny relationship and, you know, Birdman's in the studio and Slim does live the business. And that's kind of the breakdown of it. And I just remember, like after this interview, you know, after leaving the studio, I went and we were all supposed to have dinner together and I went off with Slim and we waited for like a half an hour in the parking lot for Birdman. And he just never showed up. And then we went to dinner and he just never showed up. And it's cuz he wanted to stay in.He just stayed in the studio all freaking night. Cuz that's what he really loves. So, yeah, I guess it's a long way of saying, what would I do if I were them? I mean, you know, probably like the financial advisor advice would be. Sell this big thing and then you're totally set for the rest of your life. But you know, if it's throwing off enough, more than enough money, tens of millions of dollars every year for you to live on, what's the point? You know, why not just do that and do what makes you happy?[00:53:59] Dan: I think that's a piece that often gets for guys and understands what some of this stuff is, that some people really just love the craft. It makes me think too about someone like Martin Scorsese or Steven Spielberg and these directors that are now in their seventies or eighties, they're not doing these movies to try to make more money. Well, granted, yes, I think they're bought into the financial success. They want fair terms. But this is what they enjoy doing. They've been doing it since they were kids and they wanna just find outlets to be able to do this in the best way possible. And I think the same could be said about Birdman of wanting to be in the studio and just wanting to have that energy. And if you sell that, then what do you do? I think especially for someone like him that's stuck to the thing that he does well. And you know, like he isn't out here like Jay-Z trying to be mogul in the sense of having different things. I mean, there's a mogul aspect in terms of media ownership, but not in the sense of like, yes, I own this, I do this, I do that as well. Sure. Maybe there's some smaller things that are in the, you know, new Orleans or, or the Louisiana area, but not in that same way. So I do think that speaks a lot to that. [00:55:06] Zack: Yeah. And I think they have dabbled in other stuff for sure. And you know, real estate, and I think there was some period of time where they had like some oil rigs or something like that.They had a vodka called G T V. They were trying to really build up Y M C M B as like, as a clothing line type of thing, rather than just merch. But, you know, none of that really kind of like ever went viral in the way that any of their artists did. So, you know, and maybe because it was that they just didn't have the passion for it that they have for music. Like that example of Birdman. So, you know, Jay clearly has the passion for the business. He clearly has the passion for, you know, doing the champagne thing or, you know, doing the VC thing. And you can tell cuz he's out there doing it. He's doing it cuz he loves it, and he makes money. But, I think it's hard for something to do well if you aren't truly passionate. Because consumers can kind of see through that. And also, you're not gonna go the extra mile for something if you don't truly care about it either. Definitely. [00:56:08] Dan: Definitely. And mine is a little different. And this may be more so from a selfish perspective of what I would do, but that's part of the question, right? Yeah. As someone that is such a fan of the vibe and the culture that they were able to create, I want to be able to relive that in different ways. I wish that Birdman and the team could patch things up and there could be a true Cash Money reunion tour that goes across the country. I know there's been different things here or there, but the same way that Didat did the Big Bad Boy Arena tour in 2016. I wanna be able to see that. I'd love to be able to do that. And I also wanna see a music biopic and the same style and the same budget and energy of Straight Outta Compton. I would love to see that about the Cash Money story. And to be honest, I feel like, I know there's a lot of energy around these biopics, but like I may be biased because it's the genre I like since Street Outta Compton came out, I just haven't seen one that's, you know, as good as that. And sometimes it's a bit frustrating when I see movies like Bohemian Rhapsody or Elvis, which I think they're fine, but I don't think they're as good as Straight Outta Compton and they're getting all these awards and stuff. And it makes me think that okay, I don&#

Jason Davis has spent his entire two decade career in the music industry and worked with many worldwide stars, including Boyz ll Men, Sugar Ray, P. Diddy, Alabama, Lonestar, Dolly Parton, among many others before working in Christian music.     Davis is an entertainment industry executive with a broad range of titles including award winning songwriter, award winning author, independent record label president, executive TV producer, entertainment consultant, former Senior VP of A&R for Dolly Parton's management company CTK management and a serial entrepreneur. He also is the author of two books, “Your Love Pursues” and “Business Backwards.”    He has also secured record deal offers with CEO's from the largest music companies in the world, including Capitol Records, Sony, Interscope, Island / Def Jam, Epic, Atlantic, RCA, and J Records.     Traveling between New York, London, Los Angeles, Miami and Nashville, he built a reputation working with the top songwriters, producers, and recording artists in the entertainment industry on a global level.     Over the span of his career, he has not only pioneered new approaches to the signing and development of some of the world most successful recording artists and songwriters such as Anne Wilson, who recently was nominated for a Billboard Award. He has consistently championed innovative business models and partnerships with a wide range of companies around the world.     His career began as a songwriter when he was discovered by Grant Cunningham, the former VP of A&R for Sparrow Records. Davis went on to write a #1 Billboard hit, received several ASCAP songwriting and publishing awards, and was nominated for a Latin music award.  Davis has also co-founded other cutting edge entertainment companies such as: One One 7, Noble Management, and Awaken Records. He is also co-president and partner of booking agency Higher Level Agency. https://oneone7.com/  http://www.noble-management.com/ 

This week I am talking with music industry icon Jason Davis. Jason is an entertainment industry executive with a broad range of titles including award winning songwriter and author, independent record label president, executive TV producer, entertainment consultant, former Senior VP of A&R for Dolly Parton's CTK management company and more. We are discussing when and why to hire an entertainment lawyer, the difference in managing a producer vs. an artist and what happens when you reach the top of the music industry and are still empty.    Sponsors: Edenbrooke Productions - We offer consulting services and are offering listeners a 1-hour introductory special. To request more info on consulting services, email Marty at contact@johnmartinkeith.com.  In this episode we discuss: *Once you make a human connection, if you keep the bar high, that relationship is always there. *When and why to hire an entertainment lawyer. *The amount it costs to hire an entertainment lawyer. *Learning how to develop an artist. *Learning how to coach artists well. *Find the treasure in an artist. *Finding an artist's sound. *the difference in managing a producer vs. an artist. *How to get people's attention as a writer. *Listening for tone of voice. *Having shared vision with an artist. *Have real love and care for people. *What can I bring to someone to help them along. *Honor your agreements. *Sandcastle empires. *What happens when you reach the top and are still empty. Websites:  - http://www.noble-management.com/  - https://oneone7.com/  - https://www.higherlevelagency.org/jasondavismasterclass.html BIO Jason Davis has spent his entire two decade career in the music industry and worked with many worldwide stars, including Boyz ll Men, Sugar Ray, P. Diddy, Alabama, Lonestar, Dolly Parton, among many others before working in Christian music.  Davis is an entertainment industry executive with a broad range of titles including award winning songwriter, award winning author, independent record label president, executive TV producer, entertainment consultant, former Senior VP of A&R for Dolly Parton's management company CTK management and a serial entrepreneur.  He has also secured record deal offers with CEO's from the largest music companies in the world, including Capitol Records, Sony, Interscope, Island / Def Jam, Epic, Atlantic, RCA, and J Records.  Traveling between New York, London, Los Angeles, Miami and Nashville, he built a reputation working with the top songwriters, producers, and recording artists in the entertainment industry on a global level.  Over the span of his career, he has not only pioneered new approaches to the signing and development of some of the world most successful recording artists and songwriters such as Anne Wilson who recently was nominated for Christian song of the year in the 2022 Billboard Awards. He has consistently championed innovative business models and partnerships with a wide range of companies around the world.  His career began as a songwriter when he was discovered by Grant Cunningham, the former VP of A&R for Sparrow Records. Davis went on to write a #1 Billboard hit, received several ASCAP songwriting and publishing awards, and was nominated for a Latin music award.  Davis has also co-founded other cutting edge entertainment companies such as: One One 7, Noble Management, and Awaken Records. He is also co-president and partner of Christian booking agency Higher Level Agency.

LEADERSHIP Leadership is not always an uphill climb. When something is birthed deep inside your soul, what do you do with that feeling to capture its essence, nurture and grow it? The Ask Benny Pough, CEO of DVERSE Media who has served as President of Roc Nation Music, Executive VP of Epic Records, and Senior VP of Universal Music Group's Island Def Jam. Upon the release of his first book, “On IMPACT”, his journey as brought him to fulfill the desires of his heart. Listen to this podcast, as Benny shares the fruit of lessons well learned along the way, and affirms that the gap between uncertainty and innovation is leadership. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We had the pleasure of interviewing Jenna Andrews over Zoom video.As a performer who was signed to a major label (Island Def Jam) and a music publisher (Sony/ATV) herself, Jenna Andrews is driven by an innate passion for music and a belief in its power to unite and inspire. The Calgary native has worn many hats in the music industry, from vocal producer to A&R/creative consultant, from songwriter and arranger to executive producer, taking both young and seasoned performers under her wing as friend, confidant, advisor and often even therapist. Jenna is familiar with the trials and tribulations faced by recording artists in achieving their vision. A true triple-threat, Andrews offers the collaborative skills of a songwriting mentor/partner and the acumen of an A&R/artist development executive. As a consultant for Sony Music's RECORDS label (where she is currently working with Swedish pop star Tove Styrke) and a partner in their joint venture publishing company TwentySeven Music at Sony/ATV, Jenna is in more demand than ever after serving as the vocal producer on BTS' Grammy-nominated global smash, “Dynamite,” and doing similar honors, along with co-writing, for the South Korean superstars' current chart-topping smash “Butter” as well as collaborating with Ed Sheeran on writing their latest smash, “Permission to Dance.”Among her impressive credits include collaborations with Drake, Jennifer Lopez, Tori Kelly, Jessie J, Noah Cyrus (“July”), Benee (the TikTok smash “supalonely,” being used in over 10 million user-created videos, and streaming over 500 million times to date) and Galantis, David Guetta & Little Mix (“Heartbreak Anthem”), as well as producers Noah “40” Shebib, Diplo, DJ Mustard, Max Martin, Illangelo and Stargate.Jenna's fingerprints are all over “Butter,” with a pair of her TwentySeven Music signings, songwriter/producer Rob Grimaldi and co-writer Alex Bilowitz, both contributing to the BTS song along with Stephen Kirk, all of whom receive writing credit on the song along with Columbia Records Chairman Ron Perry and BTS' RM, who penned the closing rap.The result was the band's fourth chart-topping Billboard Hot 100 single, and a major achievement for Andrews and her team, one that has her looking to the future to make her mark in not just the music business, but other ancillary, related projects.We want to hear from you! Please email Tera@BringinitBackwards.com.www.BringinitBackwards.com#podcast #interview #bringinbackpod #JennaAndrews #BTS #Butter #DixieD'Amelio #NewMusic #zoom Listen & Subscribe to BiB https://www.bringinitbackwards.com/follow/ Follow our podcast on Instagram and Twitter! https://www.facebook.com/groups/bringinbackpod

In this episode Jason Davis opens up about his experience as a songwriter and how he got a #1 Billboard charting song before he even realised that it was something maybe he should look at. Through a traumatic childhood and finding music as a way of expressing himself he is now passionate as a music manager helping develop artists into realising their full artistic potential. If you're looking for a record deal or management Jason gives some great advice for aspiring artists here. Jason Davis has spent his entire two decade career in the music industry and worked with many worldwide stars, including Boyz ll Men, Sugar Ray, P. Diddy, Alabama, Lonestar, Dolly Parton, among many others. Davis is an entertainment industry executive with a broad range of titles including award winning songwriter, award winning author, independent record label president, executive TV producer, entertainment consultant, former Senior VP of A&R for Dolly Parton's management company CTK management and a serial entrepreneur. He has also secured record deal offers with CEO's from the largest music companies in the world, including Capitol Records, Sony, Interscope, Island / Def Jam, Epic, Atlantic, RCA, and J Records. Traveling between New York, London, Los Angeles, Miami and Nashville, he built a reputation working with the top songwriters, producers, and recording artists in the entertainment industry on a global level. Over the span of his career, he has not only pioneered new approaches to the signing and development of some of the world most successful recording artists and songwriters but he has consistently championed innovative business models and partnerships with a wide range of companies around the world. His career began as a songwriter when he was discovered by Grant Cunningham, the former VP of A&R for Sparrow Records. Davis went on to write a #1 Billboard hit, received several ASCAP songwriting and publishing awards, and was nominated for a Latin music award. Davis has also co-founded other cutting edge entertainment companies such as Radar Label Group (Jimmy Eat World, Plain White T's, Neon Trees, The Unlikely Candidates), One One 7, Noble Management, and Awaken Records. He is also co-president and partner of booking agency Higher Level Agency. Connect with Jason: Noble Management One One 7 Higher Level Agency Enjoying the podcast? buy Rae Leigh and the team a coffee and help keep the program going for future songwriters here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/SongwriterTryst

In this episode, Kevin welcomes writer and internet pal Katie Tamola to the virtual building, where the two chop it up about their shared love of "Desus and Mero," of living with whimsical dogs, and pop music through the selections Katie brought to discuss. For more information about Katie Tamola's writing, visit her website, or follow her for hot takes about the New York Yankees on Twitter.  For more information about the "award winning" music criticism site, Anhedonic Headphones, click here   Episode Musical Credits Opening Theme Music- "Flava In Ya Ear" (Instrumental); written by Osten Harvey Jr, Craig Mack, Roger Nichols, and Paul Williams. Bad Boy Records, 1994. Closing Theme Music - "Feelin'"; written by Rashad Harden. Hyperdub Records, 2013. "Needy," written by Tommy Brown, Taylor Parks, Victoria Monét, and Ariana Grande; performed by Ariana Grande. Thank U, Next, Republic, 2019. "2009," written by James “Big Jim” Wright, Aja Grant, George Jackson, Chanté Moore, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Jon Brion, Eric Gabouer, and Mac Miller; performed by Mac Miller. Swimming, Warner, 2018. "Cardigan," written by Taylor Swift and Aaron Dessner; performed by Taylor Swift. Folklore, Republic, 2020. "Thru Your Phone," written by Pardison Fontaine, Ali Tamposi, Justin Tranter, Klenord Raphael, Benjamin Levin, Andrew Watt, and Belcalis MearlenisAlmánzar; performed by Cardi B. Invasion of Privacy, Warner, 2018. "Perfect Places," written by Jack Antonoff and Ella Yelich-O'Connor; performed by Lorde. Melodrama, Republic, 2017. "We Found Love," written by Calvin Harris; performed by Rihanna. Talk That Talk, Island/Def Jam, 2011. 

Hello and welcome to REPLY ALT, my perfect email newsletter about music which has never had a single typo or msitake in it!I had my West Coast SELLOUT release party last week in Los Angeles and it still amazes me that an entire venue’s worth of people will show up to hear about A BOOK. THE WRITTEN WORD! Thank you for coming if you did! I really do need to set up some events in other cities, huh?I shook a lot of hands and took many pictures with people and as a result I got sick for the first time in two years. Don’t worry, it’s not The Big C. I got tested just to be sure. Just a regular boring cold. Aha, suckers! Your best efforts to infect me with your Covid germs have failed! I AM UNKILLABLE! I’m feeling much better now thank you but you’ll have to excuse the scratchiness in my voice in this interview I recently recorded with Thrice’s Riley Breckenridge.As I mentioned, I’ve been running this series called Sellout Stories in which I talk to some of the supporting players in SELLOUT about their major-label experiences. (Check out previous interviews with Norman Brannon from Texas Is the Reason, Chris #2 from Anti-Flag, and Chris DeMakes from Less Than Jake.) Glad to add Thrice to that list today.I’m forgetting who said it at the moment, but someone I interviewed for the Thursday chapter of SELLOUT told me that around the time the New Jersey band went to Island Def Jam, the label also signed Thrice, almost as a backup plan. You know, in case Thursday didn’t work out. Good to have another ‘Th—” band on deck.I don’t think it was as simple as that, but Thursday certainly did cast a long shadow at Island Def Jam. When the band got bought out from Victory Records for $1.2 million, there were a lot of expectations. The New York Times Magazine compared the band to Metallica and U2. There wasn’t nearly as much drama surrounding their West Coast counterparts in Thrice, but the band did have a similar experience with the label. They got a ridiculously overblown budget to make their major label debut (likely also somewhere around the half-mill mark) and had months to overanalyze it. They were also caught in the unfortunate transitional period when Lyor Cohen left the label and L.A. Reid stepped in.The result of Thrice’s big-budget effort was The Artist in The Ambulance, which was released in July 2003, two months before Thursday’s War All the Time. I figured, since Thrice only got a few passing mentions in SELLOUT, they deserve to have their story expanded upon here. So I convinced drummer Riley Breckenridge to chat about the band’s major label experience.Check it out above or at all the usual podcast places: Spotify, Apple, blah blah blah.Order my book, SELLOUT, here:  B&N | Amazon | Books-A-Million | Bookshop | GoodreadsShop the SELLOUT merch store.Follow me on the internet. Twitter | Instagram | Website Get full access to REPLY ALT at danozzi.substack.com/subscribe

We all like music, one genre or the other. I don't believe there's a single person that actually dislikes all types of music. Some people love music to a concerning degree like it's the only thing they think about and want so constantly that it feels like an addiction. It's far more than a want, it's a need. Ultimately, music has changed our lives and still changes us every day. That same passion drove Kia Orion to where he is right now - running Beat School and teaching how to create cool music.In this episode of The New Nomad, Kia joins hosts Andrew Jernigan and Allen Koski in exploring the world of beats and what it took to thrive in it. From making 10 years' worth of mistakes and failed tries, Kia finally pursued his passion for music by creating and teaching his students good ole' ground thumpin' beats. Our trio of nomads also discussed the challenges in this niche and tips on how to be successful in it. This is a fun-filled (and music tips-filled) episode that you wouldn't want to miss. Really.[3:43] Selling everything in pursuit of being a digital nomad[4:35] A million ways to approach online businesses[6:24] The birth of Beat School - monetizing your passion[18:58] At the end of the day, it's all about integrity[20:45] Do what you love and everything else is just icing on the cake[25:39] Being comfortable outside of your comfort zoneGUEST BIO:Kia Orion started 10 years of mistakes then eventually started making dope music and officially been living a nomadic life for 3 years and change. He had been a bartender, marketing manager, and even a high school teacher. Originally from New York, he grew up as the guy hustling his mixtape out of the backpack. After college and a brief stint working at Island/Def Jam, he realized the major label life was not for him. Kia spent four years in Philly, and then after hitting an all-time low got fed up with how life was going. So he sold everything he owns, quit his job, and bought a one-way ticket to Northern Thailand.These days, Kia makes music, creates content, runs Beat School, and obsesses over the process.Kia Orion Links:Website: https://www.kiaorion.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kiaorion/?hl=enSoundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/kiaorionFollow Insured Nomads at:Instagram: @insurednomadswww.insurednomads.com

Jazmine Valencia is the President of JV Agency. Prior to starting her own agency, she worked at Island Def Jam as Head of Digital. Jaz has handled over 2000+ musician projects and advanced the careers of top-selling artists likeThe Killers, Fall Out Boy, Avicii, American Authors, and Shawn Mendes. Jazmine is a speaker on various subjects such as Digital Marketing, Social Media, Influencer Marketing, and Women's Empowerment. She has previously spoken at Harvard University, George Washington University, SXSW, CMJ, and at “Dialog Konferansen” - the largest and most famous conference on digital marketing in Scandinavia. Jazmine Valencia is the President of JV Agency. Prior to starting her own agency, she worked at Island Def Jam as Head of Digital. Jaz has handled over 2000+ musician projects and advanced the careers of top-selling artists like The Killers, Fall Out Boy, Avicii, American Authors, and Shawn Mendes. -- Crafting an Ideal Timeline Changing Plans & Staying within Budget First Steps for a Release Goal Setting for Musicians A Musician's Role during a Rollout How to Plan Budgets Prioritizing Channels for Promotion Communication is Key -- Create a website with Bandzoogle.com! Share your music, merch, videos, and bio with anyone with one link. Try it free for 30 days with an exclusive promo code “thesetup” to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. (That is less than $11/month.) -- If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 30 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! -- For show notes and past guests, please visit thesetupseries.com Want to meet our guests? Join our community (“Set Up Set List") at thesetupseries.com/community --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thesetupseries/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thesetupseries/support

Carlos Rafael Rivera is a world-class award-winning film composer and guitarist, who just recently scored and was EMMY-nominated for the incredible Netflix Series, The Queen's Gambit! His music has been acclaimed by the Miami Herald, the San Francisco Examiner, and the LA Times, helping establish him as a composer with the unique ability of incorporating a large diversity of musical influences into his captivating compositions, which reflect his multi-cultural upbringing in Central America and the United States. He has recorded studio sessions for Island/Def Jam, and Universal Records; and had songs featured on NETFLIX' FIREFLY LANE, ABC's SCRUBS, MTV, and VH-1. His work for the performing arts has been featured by some of the most prominent ensembles and soloists, including Arturo Sandoval, Colin Currie, Chanticleer, Cavatina Duo, the Chicago Sinfonietta, the American Composers Orchestra, and the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet; commissioned by the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony and the American Wind Symphony; recorded by Varêse-Sarabande, BMG, Warner, Sony, Naxos, and Cedille labels; and awarded by the Herb Alpert Foundation, the Guitar Foundation of America, BMI, and twice by ASCAP. He has served as Composer-in-Residence with the Miami Symphony Orchestra, and was a musical consultant for “Invitation to World Literature,” an educational series funded by the Annenberg Foundation and produced by WGBH. He is a voting member of the Television Academy (EMMY's), the Recording Academy (GRAMMY's), the Society of Composers and Lyricists (SCL), and is a sought out guest composer and lecturer throughout the globe.https://carlosrafaelrivera.com/https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2292589/https://www.instagram.com/composer313/?hl=en@thecareermusician@nomadsplace

Carlos Rafael Rivera is a world-class award-winning film composer and guitarist, who just recently scored and was EMMY-nominated for the incredible Netflix Series, The Queen's Gambit! His music has been acclaimed by the Miami Herald, the San Francisco Examiner, and the LA Times, helping establish him as a composer with the unique ability of incorporating a large diversity of musical influences into his captivating compositions, which reflect his multi-cultural upbringing in Central America and the United States. He has recorded studio sessions for Island/Def Jam, and Universal Records; and had songs featured on NETFLIX' FIREFLY LANE, ABC's SCRUBS, MTV, and VH-1. His work for the performing arts has been featured by some of the most prominent ensembles and soloists, including Arturo Sandoval, Colin Currie, Chanticleer, Cavatina Duo, the Chicago Sinfonietta, the American Composers Orchestra, and the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet; commissioned by the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony and the American Wind Symphony; recorded by Varêse-Sarabande, BMG, Warner, Sony, Naxos, and Cedille labels; and awarded by the Herb Alpert Foundation, the Guitar Foundation of America, BMI, and twice by ASCAP. He has served as Composer-in-Residence with the Miami Symphony Orchestra, and was a musical consultant for “Invitation to World Literature,” an educational series funded by the Annenberg Foundation and produced by WGBH. He is a voting member of the Television Academy (EMMY's), the Recording Academy (GRAMMY's), the Society of Composers and Lyricists (SCL), and is a sought out guest composer and lecturer throughout the globe. https://carlosrafaelrivera.com/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2292589/ https://www.instagram.com/composer313/?hl=en @thecareermusician @nomadsplace

Adam Lowenberg is the Chief Marketing Officer at Primary Wave. He is responsible for some of the most compelling and unique marketing concepts within the modern music industry. Prior to being at Primary Wave, Lowenberg was Sr. VP of Marketing for Island Def Jam and served as Sr. VP of Marketing at Virgin Records. We talk about his rise in the industry, the 15th anniversary of Primary Wave, how he creates national holidays for his clients and so much more. 

Una Healy was a gigging singer/songwriter when she answered an ad looking for a female singer for a girlband. What followed was a phenomenal seven years in The Saturdays one of the new millennium's biggest girlbands. A string of massive hits in the UK led to them getting signed by Island Def Jam in America and making their own reality series "Chasing the Saturdays" for the E Network.  Since then Una has been a regular on Irish and UK television as a presenter and released a solo album  "The Waiting Game" and a string of silly releases including a duet with Sam Palladio. Una returned to Ireland during the lockdown and is back living in the town where she grew up. She is one of the loveliest people and has an incredible new single "Until You".  You can support Fascinated by becoming a member of headstuff+ on headstuffpodcasts.com. In return for your support, you will get access to bonus exclusive bonus content. In the bonus content for this episode, you can watch the interview with Una.You can listen to Una's music  and The Saturdays back catalogue on Spotify. Follow GearoidTwitter: @gearoidfarrellyInstagram: gearoidfarrellyFacebook: /gearoidfarrellyFollow LucianaTwitter: @UnaHealyInstagram: unahealyFacebook: /unahealy

My guests today are Livia Tortella and Brian Popowitz of Blackbox, a marketing agency that has worked with artists like JP Saxe, Christina Perri, Jesse McCartney, and many others. Before Livia started this marketing agency, she was the co-president and CMO (Chief Marketing Officer) of Warner Brothers Records. Before that, she was the SVP of Marketing at Atlantic Records. And before Atlantic Records she worked at Island/Def Jam. And before Island/Def Jam, she was at PolyGram. She's been in the major label system for many years, but just under a decade ago she broke out and started Blackbox. Blackbox is a marketing agency that has worked with Andra Day, JP Saxe, Best Coast, Christina Perri, Dirty Honey, Jesse McCartney. They even worked on Kid Rock's faux Senate run. With JP Saxe specifically, they worked with him before his record and publishing deal and when he was completely independent. They helped take one of his first songs, "The Few Things," to over 20 million streams. They also helped Andra Day to acquire more than 250,000 social media fans. Brian and Livia break down their process, what they do, and how they help an artist tell their story effectively. They also give some really great strategies on how to tell that story. Quick links: 5:08 - What is Blackbox?10:38 - What is a narrative? Why is it important?12:15 - Does Blackbox function as a manager for artists? 15:40 - How Blackbox developed JP Saxe and helped him tell his story21:22 - What does the onboarding process look like? How does an artist tell their story?35:36 - How do you get an artist to communicate their story visually?39:38 - When does paid media advertising come into play in a marketing strategy?43:38 - Where are we at with paid media? What platforms is Blackbox using for its clients?46:40 - What is influencer marketing? How is it working in the space today?48:05 - How's TikTok marketing functioning right now? Is it effective? 51:15 - Ari's Take Academy student questions1:05:11 - How Brian and Livia define making it in the new music businessConnect with Ari’s Take:Website: https://aristake.comAcademy: https://aristakeacademy.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/aristake_/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@aris.takeTwitter: https://twitter.com/ArisTakeYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/aristake1Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aristake/Connect with Ari Herstand:Website: https://ariherstand.comInstagram: https://instagram.com/ariherstandTwitter: https://twitter.com/ariherstandYouTube: https://youtube.com/ariherstandFacebook: https://facebook.com/ariherstandConnect with Blackbox:Website:

Dina Marto is a seasoned entrepreneur, music executive, and small business owner. For the last 20 years, Dina has helped with the careers of chart-topping artists, including Rick Ross, Young Jeezy, and T.I. and has held positions at Island Def Jam and Twelve Music and Studios, which she co-founded in 2012. Courtney Rhodes Is a strategic, goal-oriented, and multi-experienced marketing (digital and traditional) and advertising professional, contributing over twenty years of professional experience in marketing communications, advertising sales management, and brand building. From Clear Channel Radio (now iHeart Media) to CBS Television, she’s helped multimillion-dollar brands perfect their messaging for television, radio, magazines, e-commerce, digital, and social media platforms. Together Dina and Courtney are C&D The Agency which is an all women-led management agency specializing in Business & Entertainment while dedicated to empowering minority women. On Episode #8 of ITV we talk to the dynamic duo about their careers and how they shattered glass ceilings but also how they plan to foster the next generation of women leaders Guest IG: https://www.instagram.com/missmarto/ https://www.instagram.com/thebrandista/ Host IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamashcash/ Show IG: https://www.instagram.com/insidethevault Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We made it lovelies! Last episode of Women Entrepreneurs in Music.... super stoked for this one. Dina Marto (@missmarto) is a seasoned entrepreneur, having shattered gender and ethnic glass ceilings during her 20 years as a music executive and small business owner. She is co-founder of C&D |The Agency, an all women-led management agency that empowers minority women. Prior to C&D, she founded Atlanta staple Twelve Music & Studios and curated one of the South's most sought-after creative environments to develop talent and produce Billboard-shattering hits. Dina is on the management team for superstar Tip “T.I.” Harris and helped launch his record label Grand Hustle and the popular podcast which became #1 on Apple Podcasts. Dina started her career in music on the A&R team for music mogul Antonio “L.A.” Reid at Island Def Jam, acting as A&R coordinator for albums by Young Jeezy, Nas, Rick Ross, Janet Jackson, LL Cool J and more. In 2015, Dina received a Proclamation from the City of Atlanta for her contributions to the music industry. In this episode, we discuss the role of an A&R, getting a peek inside a record label like Def Jam and learn how to keep pushing forward as an artist. -- “Being a woman is our superpower.” -- 5:00 Intro to Dina Marto 9:00 Record Labels Now & Then 12:00 Digital Presence in Artist Development 18:30 How to Present Demos 20:30 A&R Process 24:00 The Role of a Manager & Managing T.I 29:00 Launching New Projects with Artists 31:00 Identifying the Right Opportunities for Artists 35:00 First Goal for a New Artist 37:30 Entrepreneurship 40:00 Women in Music -- GIVEAWAY!!! We are offering one listener an invite to Clubhouse app (music networking and audio workshops). To Enter: Give us a shout out on your Instagram story! -- Recommended Episode | How to Not Get F*cked by the Industry with Legendary Deal Negotiator, Wendy Day Last Week | Digital Influence with Music Publicist, Ariel Hyatt -- If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 30 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit thesetupseries.com/interviews Sign up for Sydney's email newsletter (“Set Up Set List") at thesetupseries.com/community Talk to us! Send Sydney an email for any topic or guest submissions OR to say hello! thesetupseries.com/contact Follow us on IG! @thesetupseries --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thesetupseries/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thesetupseries/support

This week’s guest on the podcast is Fefe Dobson, most of you may recognize her from her platinum certified singles like 'Ghost,' 'Stuttering' and the gold certified 'Can't Breathe'. Fefe is a Canadian born singer, songwriter, recording artist and actress who rose to fame in the early 2000's after shopping her homemade demos to major labels, landing her a subsequent deal with Island / Def Jam. During the COVID-19 outbreak in early 2020, Fefe alongside Canadian pop star Tyler Shaw assembled some of Canada's biggest artists including Justin Bieber, Avril Lavigne and Bryan Adams for a charity single of the late Bill Withers' 'Lean On Me' which raised over $100K for COVID-19 relief efforts in her native Canada. Chloe Wilde and Fefe chat about all things anxiety, where her inspiration comes from, the importance of morning routines, the power of spending time in nature and how the people you surround yourself with is such an important factor to your health. Fefe is currently working on brand new music due out later this year! Follow Fefe on IG: @fefedobson

An entertainment industry executive with a broad range of titles including award-winning songwriter, award-winning author, independent record label president, executive TV producer, entertainment consultant, former Senior VP of A&R for Dolly Parton's management company, and a serial entrepreneur. He has also secured record deal offers with CEOs from the largest music companies in the world, including Capitol Records, Sony, Interscope, Island / Def Jam, Epic, Atlantic, and RCA. He wrote a #1 Billboard hit and was even nominated for a Latin music award.

Today we have the fantastic Jenna Andrews! She's a singer, songwriter, and vocal producer whose credits include Benee's addictive "Supalonely" (currently still going strong worldwide with close to 500 million streams) and BTS' bonafide hit "Dynamite" and "Savage Love". Her career began as an artist herself signed to Island Def Jam, to writing for Drake + Majid Jordan and J-Lo and Noah Cyrus to name a few, to consulting for Barry Weiss' RECORDS label to her joint venture with Weiss, publishing company Twentyseven Music at Sony/ATV. Jenna recently launched The Green Room - a conversation series centered around mental health in the entertainment industry. In partnership with The Jed Foundation (suicide prevention for teens non-profit org) and She Is The Music (nonprofit organization increasing the number of women working in music), Jenna features an artist and a mental health professional in each 45-min discussion. Past guests have included Lennon Stella, Kiesza, Pixie Lott, Rebecca Black, and more. By connecting with artists and professionals in the field of mental and emotional health – Jenna’s mission is to help others feel a sense of relief through open and honest conversations with some of our favorite creators. Today we get a closer look at how Jenna got started in the music industry and her new podcast show, The Green Room! Big Sister Jenna coming our way y’all! Congrats on the Isolation award as well as the Grammy nom! Tune in to The Green Room on Youtube and when it comes out on podcast platforms such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more for season one next year!The Green Room 'Gram: @thegreenroomtalks Jenna Andrews 'Gram: @thejennandrewsJenna Andrews Twitter: @thejennaandrews Jenna Andrews' Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheJennaAndrewsJenna Andrews Website: http://www.thejennaandrews.com/SSR ‘Gram: @ajsoreelSSR Twitter: @shessoreelSSR Shownotes: https://shessoreel.com/episode/jenna-andrews/#ShesSoReel #AJsSoReel*This episode includes affiliate links for which I may make a small commission at no extra cost to you should you make a purchase. Read my disclaimer for further info.*

Today we have the fantastic Jenna Andrews! She's a singer, songwriter, and vocal producer whose credits include Benee's addictive "Supalonely" (currently still going strong worldwide with close to 500 million streams) and BTS' bonafide hit "Dynamite" and "Savage Love". Her career began as an artist herself signed to Island Def Jam, to writing for Drake + Majid Jordan and J-Lo and Noah Cyrus to name a few, to consulting for Barry Weiss' RECORDS label to her joint venture with Weiss, publishing company Twentyseven Music at Sony/ATV. Jenna recently launched The Green Room - a conversation series centered around mental health in the entertainment industry. In partnership with The Jed Foundation (suicide prevention for teens non-profit org) and She Is The Music (nonprofit organization increasing the number of women working in music), Jenna features an artist and a mental health professional in each 45-min discussion. Past guests have included Lennon Stella, Kiesza, Pixie Lott, Rebecca Black, and more. By connecting with artists and professionals in the field of mental and emotional health – Jenna’s mission is to help others feel a sense of relief through open and honest conversations with some of our favorite creators. Today we get a closer look at how Jenna got started in the music industry and her new podcast show, The Green Room! Big Sister Jenna coming our way y’all! Congrats on the Isolation award as well as the Grammy nom! Tune in to The Green Room on Youtube and when it comes out on podcast platforms such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more for season one next year!The Green Room 'Gram: @thegreenroomtalks Jenna Andrews 'Gram: @thejennandrewsJenna Andrews Twitter: @thejennaandrews Jenna Andrews' Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheJennaAndrewsJenna Andrews Website: http://www.thejennaandrews.com/SSR ‘Gram: @ajsoreelSSR Twitter: @shessoreelSSR Shownotes: https://shessoreel.com/episode/jenna-andrews/#ShesSoReel #AJsSoReel*This episode includes affiliate links for which I may make a small commission at no extra cost to you should you make a purchase. Read my disclaimer for further info.*

Welcome to another episode of the continuing series of film, TV and video game composer interviews on the CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO NETWORK. Carlos Rafael Rivera is an EMMY Award-winning composer for film and television. A protégé of Randy Newman, he earned a DMA in Composition at USC’s Thornton School, where he studied with Donald Crockett and Stephen Hartke. As a guitarist, he has performed onstage as opening act for The Who at the Hollywood Bowl; recorded studio sessions for Island/Def Jam, and Universal Records; and had songs featured on NETFLIX’ FIREFLY LANE, ABC’s SCRUBS, MTV, and VH-1. As a composer, Rivera has a unique ability to incorporate a large diversity of musical influences into his captivating compositions, which reflect his multi-cultural upbringing in Central America and the United States. He has served as Composer-in-Residence with the Miami Symphony Orchestra and was a musical consultant for “Invitation to World Literature,” an educational series funded by the Annenberg Foundation and produced by WGBH and is a sought out guest composer and lecturer throughout the globe. He is also Assistant Professor and Director of the Media Writing and Production Program at the acclaimed Frost School of Music at the University of Miami, Carlos first met Oscar-nominated film/TV maker Scott Frank over 15 years ago when Scott responded to an ad for music lessons that Carlos had posted at a local Pasadena music store. What started as guitar lessons grew into a years-long friendship, and eventually led to an amazing collaborative partnership beyond the composer’s wildest dreams. Their first collaboration was on the action-drama feature, A Walk Among the Tombstones, starring Liam Neeson. Carlos went on to score Scott’s western drama series GODLESS, for which he won a Primetime Emmy for his "Main Title Theme" and also earned a nomination for his score. Their third and latest collaboration is the Netflix limited series THE QUEEN'S GAMBIT. The psychological drama series is based on the novel of the same name by Walter Tevis and follows an orphan in late-1950s Kentucky named Beth Harmon (Anya Taylor-Joy) who discovers she has an incredible talent for chess. In October 2020, for the CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO NETWORK, Jason Drury talked to Carlos Rafael Rivera via Zoom at his home in Miami, Florida. During the interview, they talked extensively about his score for THE QUEEN'S GAMBIT, his working relationship with Scott Frank and of his other two collaborations with Frank; A WALK AMONG THE TOMBSTONES and GODLESS. Also during the show, you will be hearing music from all 3 productions but extensively from The Queen Gambit, without doubt, one of the best scores of 2020. Enjoy! —— Cinematic Sound Radio is fully licensed to play music by SOCAN. Check out our NEW Cinematic Sound Radio TeePublic Store! https://www.teepublic.com/stores/cinematic-sound-radio Cinematic Sound Radio Web: http://www.cinematicsound.net Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/cinsoundradio Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cinematicsound Cinematic Sound Radio Fanfare and Theme by David Coscina https://soundcloud.com/user-970634922 Bumper voice artist: Tim Burden http://www.timburden.com

As an artist (Island Def Jam) and a songwriter (Sony/ATV) herself, Andrews is sensitive to the challenges that both up and coming and seasoned singers and writers face in music today, and she carries that knowledge with her in her work as a consultant for industry veteran Barry Weiss’ RECORDS label, as well as in her joint venture with Weiss, publishing company Twentyseven Music at Sony/ATV. The Calgary native has collaborated with some of the most renowned names in the market today, including heavy hitters such as Drake, Jennifer Lopez, Little Mix, Tori Kelly, Jessie J and Benee, as well as producers Noah 40 Shebib, Diplo, DJ Mustard, Max Martin, Illangelo and Stargate. Most recently, she has taken pop singer-songwriter Noah Cyrus under her wing, A&Ring her single “July” and writing the remix featuring Leon Bridges, which has garnered more than 160 million streams to date. She is also celebrating the stellar success of the hit she co-wrote with New Zealand-born singer/songwriter Benee, “Supalonely,” which has produced over 10 million TikTok videos and has massed over 125 million streams on Spotify alone. Today we’re talking about her passion and work towards the premise of mental health for Creative Professionals. Enjoy!  [Read more about our guest today HERE]   ***CORONA VIRUS EDITION***   In this episode Peter & The Jenna Andrews discuss: 1:10-  Intro and welcome Jenna!  Ref: Aliza Licht’s podcast Leave Your Mark 3:30-  So what prompted you to make mental health a passion? Ref: Emily Ratajkowski article in Harpers Bazzar   6:28:  Talk about what resources there are or more importantly, what resources there should be for artists/songwriters for anyone trying to pursue a career in The Music Industry. Ref: Jenna’s new podcast The Green Room. Ref:  The Jed Foundation  9:20-  Ref #SameHere started by my Eric Kussin (Hear Peter’s interview with Eric here 10:00-  On working to removing stigma, stereotypes, being honest, open and just not judging! 12:48-  What are you doing personally to take care of yourself? What are your sort of life rules that you put into place? 14:10-  Tell me how you reacted when you found out that your song “Tumblin Down” was going to be featured on Grey’s Anatomy?  Ref:  Imposter Syndrome 15:50-  And you were first discovered on MySpace?? 17:30-  A couple of lightning round questions. Where's your happy place? Where do you go when you just want to be happy? What place is the happiest, the most creative, most confident? 20:00-  Since you've kinda got the RomCom thing going on then answer this: Awesome or Creepy: “Love Actually” 21:30-  What is your most unhealthy favorite food? 22:40-  Ok, last question; what’s your favorite type of work out, if you work out? 23:23-  How can people find you? Where can people find you? Via her website: www.TheJennaAndrews.com and @TheJennaAndrews on Twitter  INSTA  Facebook  YouTube and  on Spotify Her podcast is The Green Room 23:40-  Thank you Jenna! And thank YOU for subscribing, reviewing and listening. Your reviews are working! Even if you’ve reviewed us before, would you please write even a short one for this episode? Each review that you post helps to ensure that word will continue to spread, and that we will all be able to reach & help more people! You can always reach me via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterThanNormal on all of the socials. STAY HEALTHY - STAY SAFE - PLEASE WEAR YOUR MASK.. until next time! 24:10-  Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits As always, leave us a comment below and please drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! Do you know of anyone you think should be on the FTN podcast? Shoot us a note, we’d love to hear! We have a new sister video cast called 20MinutesInLockdown! A video podcast devoted to learning fascinating lessons from interesting humans all around the world, all in 20 minutes or less!  20 Minutes in Lockdown was born in early April of 2020, when we were in fact, in lockdown, and couldn’t do much of anything. Realizing that more than ever, people could benefit from learning from people outside of their comfort zone – people with interesting stories to tell, people with good advice, people with useful ideas that could help improve lives, we started hosting short Facebook video interviews, and we grew from there. (Plus, you can actually see my hair colors change before your very eyes!) Check it out:  www.20MinutesInLockdown.com   TRANSCRIPT:  Hey guys, Peter, Shankman welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. Thrilled that you're here. It is a gray, disgusting day here in New York city, but we are hopeful. Um, even though we are looking at a 3% rise in coronavirus, because most of you mother won't wear a mask and it's pissing me off, but whatever, it's still great to have you all here. I am glad you are here. I'm glad you're I hope you're all healthy and safe and that wearing your mask. Okay. We're talking to someone today. I I've talked to her now for about three minutes before I started. And I'm already in love. This person is awesome. I love everything about this person. Let me tell you she's so Jenna Andrews. Okay. If you are in the music industry, chances are, you've heard of this one. As artists with Island Def jam and a songwriter with Sony ATV. She sent him to the challenges of both up and coming as well as seasoned singers and writers and what they face in music today. She carries that knowledge with her as a consultant for industry veteran, Barry Weiss, his record label, as well as her joint venture with Weiss, a publishing company called 27 music and Sony ATV. Okay. She's worked with Drake, Jennifer Lopez, little mix, Tori Kelly, Jessie, J Benny producers, Noah 40, Diplo, DJ mustard. Max Martin. I am not cool enough doing half these people are, but I, I know that she's worked with Noah Cyrus, um, uh, eight and her single July and writing the remix featuring Leon bridges, which has garnered over 200 million streams to date. I always hesitate to put streams or numbers in my bio because I have to update them like every week, 210 million, 20 million. Anyway, I was actually going to say that I'm sure it's in there. Tell your publicist, update the stream. Okay. Anyway, she is very, very passionate about, about mental health and mental health for creative professionals, songwriters musicians. And that's why she's here today. I heard her on my wonderfully good friend Aliza Licht’s podcast and Leave Your Mark, which if you haven't subscribed to that one, I strongly recommend that Lisa is the shit and I am thrilled that Jenna has taken the time to be here to gentle. Welcome. Thank you so much for being on Faster Than Normal. Oh, of course. Oh my God. By the way, your intro is pretty spectacular. I was like, wow, this is awesome. You're really good at you're really good at that. I'm like, I'm like, yes, I am. I'm here for it. When people introduced me I'm always looking around like, who the hell are they talking about? It's really, but that's cool. Literally.  I love it. So how tell us about, so I want to focus most of the mental health, cause you know, we only facet normal is only 20 minutes, 30 minute interviews cause you know, 80 days. But um, I want to focus on the premise of mental health, you know, Whether you're an entrepreneur or you're a musician or any kind of creative or whatever you're doing in life. We tend to push mental health to the side. We still tend to push it to the back burner. We don't think about it as something, you know, we'll go to the gym right, five times a week and we'll do this dumb ass juice, detox, cleanses, whatever. But the one thing that we don't focus on anywhere near as much as we should, as society is taking care of our brain. And so what prompted you to make mental health a passion?  Um, it was funny because when, when you were, we were actually talking three minutes before, um, we started and you mentioned, um, your story and, and obviously how having ADHD, you know, back, you know, I guess what was it like 15, 20 years ago? It was totally something that wasn't, um, kind of okay to admit. So I actually have a similar experience because I, I feel like throughout high school people always were telling me, Oh yeah, she has a learning disability, dah, dah, dah, like all this kind of stuff. And I was so embarrassed about it. And, um, you know, at the time I didn't want to see anybody and it's it's um, yeah, it was like, it was shameful, which is so, which is so weird. I mean, that's one of the reasons, another reason is, you know, I was pretty badly bullied in high school as well. And, um, I went through an eating disorder and you know, I think a lot of young girls can relate and unfortunately way too many girls go through it. So it really made me feel one, you know, being a musician, it's been a way that I've been able to purge my emotions and feel better in a cathartic way, so I feel like in combination with that, and also just, you know, being able to be open through song. I was like, well, we do this every day in a song writing room. Like, why can't we open this up to the world for whoever's comfortable to talk about it, especially for the fans out there, you know, listening to these musicians or idolizing people that probably are going through similar things that they are, you know.  It makes a lot of sense what you say. You know, the interesting thing though, is that again, it's not necessarily something that tends to be focused on. Um, long-term, you know, I remember, uh, a lot of my friends I was telling you before, and then I went to LaGuardia, high school, Performing Arts, and a lot of the kids who I went to school with a good handful of them, you know, they started out their musical careers and they were working on it and they were, you know, sort of, um, pushing forward and pushing forward. And it was a constant grind that constant struggle and a constant, you know, series of rejections and being told no, and being told to lose weight or gain weight, or dye your hair or change this, or change that and get a boob job, whatever it was. And this was in the nineties. I, I, by the way, I I'm, I'm madly in love with you about the fact that you said it must be 15 to 20 years ago, that was in high school. It's closer to 30, 35 years ago, but bless your heart. Anyway, I appreciate that. Um, but you know, the, the, the, the concept of all of these rejections and all of these sort of, you're not good enough, or you'll be better if you do this. Right. takes its toll. There was an article written by, um, uh, Emily Ratajkowski, the, the, the model. Um, I don't know if you read it. It was in, I think it was in New Yorker. It was in Harpers. I don't remember where it was published last month or so where she talked about what she went through as a woman and as a model and how she was basically just treated like a product and, and, and she could never, she was never get everything she did, you know, was fixed this change that do this and. Talk about, um, in the music industry, talk about, you know, sort of what resources there are or more importantly, what resources there should be. Um, for artists forcing us we're songwriters for, for anyone trying to pursue that career. Who's constantly told no. I mean, we're told to just, you know, I'll just keep pushing forward. Same thing and sales, I guess, in the business, keep trying and keep going, keep going, but they never talk about sort of what people can do to, to fix themselves and to get the help they need.  Yeah. I'm actually in the process of trying to figure that out actually in, in doing this whole thing. I mean, really it's so it's so interesting because you know, starting.. I’ve started, uh, my own podcast called The Green Room about mental health. And obviously, you know, that, um, I, you know, in doing that, I think it was, it started as like, you know, an idea of being able to, you know, just be able to purge as I said, but then it really built into something that's, that's become just what you just asked is like, you know, being able to support people in the industry and outside as well. But like, I guess I'm working on that now. In fact, I spoke to, um, I spoke to somebody yesterday about potentially coming up with, you know, essentially making things like making some sort of program up or, you know, he writes policies. He was talking about ways that we can sort of come together and find ways that we can actually provide um, ways that people can or places people can go. Cause right now, you know, honestly, just speaking from the music community, it's like obviously writing songs is something that's therapeutic, right? That is, that is why people do that song is the feel better, right. In terms of actually solving some problems, like one thing I spoke to about my, to my friend or this, you know, this therapist yesterday is he basically was saying that he's trying to find a policy to like make, you know, have it be that people don't necessarily have to go to prison when they're, you know, abusing alcohol or drugs, because, you know, there has, there's such a deep rooted problem, like reason for that, for that. So it should be something should be there to help them rather than like, sort of punish them for it because it's really based on mental health. And a lot of times in music and entertainment, people really get. Um, get like a bad rap because a lot of times it will be like, Oh yeah, musicians are druggies or alcoholics or whatever, but it's really just because it's like, we're depressed in the same way everybody else is, it’s just that you're putting it out for the world to see. Right. So. Like going back again to your original question. That's I don't, I don't know that I have like the solution right at this very moment, but I guess what I'm hoping to do through The Green Room is to be able to, you know, talk about it. And obviously I partnered with The Jed Foundation, which is, um, a nonprofit for mental health. So we're giving all of that money back to the mental health, all the donations go back to mental health, which is the first step. Um, And yeah, and I guess there's just, you know, obviously, you know, providing hotlines and things for people to call, but I do think that there has to be a bigger. Being in that. So I feel like this is something it's a work in progress.  There's a, a nonprofit called #SameHere started by my friend Eric Kussin and the whole premise there is, is just to sort of, to legitimize the conversation around mental health. I think that if we, you know, if the conversation around mental health to legitimize, it would, it would solve, you know, we're not gonna solve all the problems, but that's a great start, right. Getting people to open up and talk about it and know that, you know, One of the reasons that I, I, I look at my ADHD and I know that it's a benefit. And, and the reason I do this podcast is so other people can learn that and not be stigmatized for it.  You know what, that's actually a really, exactly what you just said is a hundred percent what I am hoping to do through what I'm trying to promote in doing The Green Room and also just making mental health, such a, um, I guess an okay thing to talk about it with, within the music community, because I think. By coming out and saying, Hey, listen, I had an eating disorder and, and saying, Hey, listen, I was bullied in high school. Hey, I drink too much. Or just stuff like that where it's like, Hey, listen, not everybody can admit that. Right. But I feel like when you can, it helps you get through it because you're like, okay, you you're going through it, so you're not alone. And I think that's really. That's like the mantra is like, people don't want to feel alone.  One of the things that I've noticed in my, in my spare time was I'm a licensed skydiver. I jumped out of airplanes for fun and yeah. Okay. Uh, we call it, FEMURing in, bring in, when someone lands has a hard landing, 90% of time, they land on their femur and they break their femur. Right. Which is essentially breaking their leg. It hurts like hell and, um, you know, they get titanium putting in, they get like rods in my leg or whatever, I think. There's actually, they're actually t-shirts that people sell that says, you know, I'm 90% metal or titanium or whatever we immortalize and embrace the concept. Oh yeah. I broke my leg. Look at how strong I am, you know, but we don't do that for mental health, you know? And, and I think that's really, what has to change is the premise that I'm not saying we need to go around and say, yes, I'm an alcoholic, but, but not to be. Um, not to be judged. That's not to look at it as a sign of weakness. Right. We break our leg. We don't look at someone with a broken leg. Hi, you fucked up. Look at you. Ha you broke it. You know, why do we still have that same stigma around mental health? And I think that is what a lot of you know, is sort of starting to sort of gain traction and become a movement where it's not stigmatized.  A hundred percent. And by the way, you're so right about that. It's like people are allowed to make mistakes and it's not to say that you should say alcoholism is the way to live. It's not, it's not promoting that. And that's only one example of many different types of things. But I guess that I found that interesting in, in, in my conversation yesterday, because I was like, okay, yeah. I mean, that is a serious stigma, but you have to realize what, what, what, it's, what extend that, you know what I mean? Like why does that person have the addiction that they have. And, and, and I think that, um, the important thing is exactly what you said as well is just not judging somebody. And I think, um, you know, for example, I'll give you another example. A couple of weeks ago, I did a show, um, I talk with Teagan and Sarah and we talk about obviously, you know, you know, the gay community and coming out and what that looks like? And there's so much judgment in that too. Like even a lot of what they talked about is, you know, the stigma of like, Hey, if you know, even in the gay and lesbian community, it's like, if you don't look like you're gay and even the let's be in community, judge, you. You know what I mean? It's like, how crazy is that? I mean, I'm just thinking there's, it's such a, a broad, um, subject, I think for judgment all across the board on a lot of different levels.  What are you doing personally to take care of yourself? What are your sort of life rules that you put into place?  Um, exactly this, I really find the most healing thing for me is the talk about it and I think, um, therapy of course. Um, but I find that it's beyond just going to a normal therapy session. I find that just talking about it with friends or, you know, Instead of repressing feelings, just putting it out there. I find that as much as open as I am, the better I feel. Do you know what I mean? Cause if I'm going through something, I feel that if I, what I learned over my life is that when I. When I sort of like pretended it didn't exist or like, you know, just kind of like put it, put it away for now. I was always way more depressed. And I think that talking about it is just so healing for me. So I'm constantly trying to talk and challenge myself to get better, I guess. Um, yeah.  Okay. Let's uh, let's move, move to a fun topic um, as well, we'll come back. We'll circle, we'll circle back to this at the end, but I, I gotta ask you a couple of questions and, you know, forgive me for this. Um, tell me how I'm hoping for a great story here. Tell me what happened or how you found out and how you reacted when you discovered, when you found out- when, I guess when your agent, whoever called you and said, Hey, “Tumblin Down” is going to be on Gray’s Anatomy? Oh, well, it's so funny. I, I, that was, um, like that was so many years ago now. Yeah, actually it might've been like 2000. Yeah. Something like that. 2011. Um, you know, I mean, obviously I thought it was really exciting. Um, but it's, it's. You know, as an artist, this is another thing to say is like your, your, so you have this like, That nothing's ever good enough.  Oh my God. Imposter syndrome. There we go. I was at imposter syndrome shows up in every single episode, every single guest talks about it. So congratulations for continuing for continuing the streak. We're good. We're I think we're 202 for 202.  Haha! Awesome! I’m glad. Okay. This is good. I mean, we're, we're, we're artists out here, you know? Um, but it's a good sign. It means that you really, you know, I think the best artists and no ones that, you know, have the most pain and have. You know, I have something to say in a story to share, to share with people, um, all feel these ways, because I think that it's impossible to be satisfied and make good art, you know, think about it. It's like if you, if you fall into a place that's complacent, you feel like you've arrived, then there's like, like you don't want to, how could you still want to create? You know, so I guess that. That's how it feels. It's just like, okay, cool. That's good. What's the next thing. And it's not even like, not being grateful. Right? Of course it's grateful, but it's just like, it's just the nature of the beast.  Yeah. Now, if, if I'm, if I remember correctly, you were discovered, and this is, this is gonna, you know, as someone who grew up in the eighties with the era and the era of dial up modems in America, online, this continues to blow my mind, you were discovered on MySpace weren't you.  Yes. And I it's so funny now because my face is, so it's such a dinosaur now, too. So it's like, it's so odd to think about because really my space was the first social network, I guess that really started this whole trend. Right. So, but no, I was exactly that. So I just kind of, I put up a song, um, For my parents basically than I, so I had moved out of my house, um, right from high school and, um, I, you know, didn't have any money and I really just wanted, had a lot of pride that I wanted to show that I could do it on my own and all these things. So I really wanted that. I like didn't have that to get back to where I was living, which was like, you know, an hour outside of the city. So I slept in my car by the beach and I wrote this song for my parents, um, being, obviously couldn't buy them a Christmas gift. And, um, and then I ended up just being like, Hey, cool, it's an acoustic song. Like I really like it. Let's just throw it on MySpace. And that was it. And I've learned now through my career as those things that happened the one, the times that you really just think. Absolutely not the times that you're just like, you know, if you're going in, you know, 350 days of the year being like I'm working today, I'm going to write a hit, I’m going to do this, or I'm going to do that. The other, you know, 10 days are the days that you'll actually accomplish something that you're not thinking about anything. It's like, those are always the times that you actually achieve the best things is when you're doing it for an authentic reason beyond any sort of specific like superficial goal. From my experience. Couple of questions, uh, sort of, sort of, um, uh, lightning round questions. Where's your happy place? Where do you go when you just want to be happy? What, what place the happiest, the most creative, the most, uh, uh, carefree and confident.  Well, okay. There's two that you just asked what makes me the happiest and what makes me the most creative are definitely two different things right now. Oh my God. You're gonna, you're gonna, literally, I don't, I'm scared to say this, but as a person that just says I have to be vulnerable and say everything, I feel I have to do it, but I freaking love the stupidest romcoms, like Hallmark movies. They make me. Like this time of the year literally makes me so happy. You guys don't understand. Like, I actually like have an obsession with Hallmark movies. Like I, like, after the day writing, I like look forward to being like, Oh my God, the Hallmark channel. And I'm like so excited. Um, and, but you're asking me during these, this December months, so this is definitely my happy times, right? Yeah. Okay. And what about most creative?  Most creative is. Um, like it's, it's either being like inspired looking out the window right now. It's like either being inspired by like, you know, what, something around you like where it's like, I can't even define it necessarily. It's like, it's, I feel like I get the most creative when I'm either like, so inspired by a thought or a melody or just something visual, I guess I'm a really visual person too. So I feel like, um, that really captivates me. So I need to feel like I, if I, if I all of a sudden see something or hear something, like if you said something right now, Like often the best songs are like, you could say it and I'm like, Oh my God, it's the best content I've ever heard. And that's so inspiring to me, you know, I was just like in conversation, having like the song, just write itself, and that's what a song is.  So to follow up on the first point of your Hallmark movies, I saw a, um, an Instagram ad, I was at a certain Instagram and the other day that showed a person wearing socks. And the socks on the soles of the socks said, “if you can read this don't bother me cause I'm watching Hallmark movies”. So I'll have to get you up to get you a pair.  OMG, Yeah. I'm actually dying right now. You have to! I will send you a pair. Yes. I'll get your address from your, from your, uh, from your publicist.  Okay, so here's the same question. Since you've got the romcom thing going on, then answer this’  Awesome or Creepy: “Love Actually”.  Awesome! Thank you! Thank you! There's a, there's a growing movement that says it's creepy and like stalkery and all that I'm like, come on. It's Love Actually.  Oh my gosh. How many times have you watched that movie? Hundreds. Hundreds. Okay. Actually I'm like, I'm like, shit. I bought that movie is iconic. It's wonderful. What's creepy is the little boy chasing the girl. I mean, that's like, no, that's awesome. I think the creepy part is the guy stocking the, his best friend's wife. No, it's not, the science is like that, that scene where it's like, Oh, I get goosebumps thinking about it.  I, I remember I, my, my ex wife, I'm still very good friends with, we were watching the movie and I was listening to the song. Um, Anywhere You Go, right? [[“Wherever You Will Go” by The Calling]] Anyway, you follow you. And, um, uh, No, no. Wherever you may go wherever you, um, the one that's playing in the bar when he goes to America and he meets the girls. Right. And I'm listening to it. I love it. So it's a great running song. And she says to me, my, my ex says to me, one day, she goes: ‘You just like that song because he ends up having a threesome’ That is such a, like, I, I, yeah, I could see that. I could see her saying that, but that's not why come on! That song.  That's not entirely why. Okay. Couple more, couple more questions. Um, favorite, uh, or worst, I should say, um, most unhealthy favorite food.  Ooh, what was that healthy, favorite food? I rarely eat healthy. Like, I don't even know if I, um, Oh, I don't even like that, like bad food. Like that's the truth. I mean, I'm actually being serious. Like, I mean, my cheat is like tomato, basil rice cakes, which I'm like obsessed with. And I know I sound insane. I know, but like, I'm not like a pizza, French fry, like person. I don't even know that that would be like my choice. I’m really glad that I live in the other end of the country because just knowing that we'd never ever date- oh my God. I don't like pizza? What the hell is wrong with you?! Rice cakes are, are literally an affront to God. Okay. Whatever, they're an affront to God.  Can I just say I do like pizza, but interesting, but I, but I just feel like. It's not like my go-to. Okay, fine. I put, I'll put cheese on a tomato basil rice cake and you're when we, when we, when we hang out, you're going to have it and it's going to change your life because it's so good.  Only if I can I take you- I'll take you to Claudio's pizzeria on 10th and 43rd street. Oh, okay. Deal? Deal. Last question. Tell us, do you tell us about what you work out? Do you work out? What's your favorite one?  Pilates. I love Pilates. That's an easy one. Yeah. It's just like, it's so. Um, I feel like one it's like so refreshing to do right in the morning. Cause it's like, it's like, obviously you get all like stretching and you can like get all your muscles working. But it's also like a lot of like core strength, especially when you do it without, um, the reformer, like, cause we've been doing Pilates like this whole. You're just with, um, an instructor on zoom, which has been awesome. And it's like, you know, like I don't have a reformer, so it's just a lot of core strength, like weights and it's just like, you're kind of like working everything and it just, I love it. I just think it checks all the boxes for me.  Where can people find you? Via her website: www.TheJennaAndrews.com and @TheJennaAndrews on Twitter  INSTA  Facebook  YouTube and  on Spotify Her podcast is The Green Room Jenna Andrews. It's everywhere. You know, all my socials are the same, so that's when they can find me. And I'm behind the screen on behind the green wall. Well, I was gonna say behind the, is the rest of your life, right? Don't take it down. And that's where the that's where the wizard hangs out. Jenna Andrews, thank you so much for being on Faster Than Normal. I truly appreciate your time. This was, this was phenomenal. I hope to have you back.  Of course, thank you so much for having me!  Guys, thanks for listening as always, if you like what you hear drops review, uh, stay safe, stay healthy. It is crazy out there and it looks like it's only gonna get worse. So until it gets better, I'm reminding you to wear the mask. Please wear the mask and we, if you don't do it for yourself, if you don't care for yourself, do it for someone you love and you should love yourself anyway, because we're the only ones we got. We'll talk to you guys next week on another episode of Faster Than Normal. Thank you so much for listening. Take care of yourselves. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were performed by Steven Byrom and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week. 

A protégé of Randy Newman, our next guest earned a DMA in Composition at USC's Thornton School, where he studied with Donald Crockett and Stephen Hartke. As a guitarist, he has performed onstage as opening act for The Who at the Hollywood Bowl; recorded studio sessions for Island/Def Jam, and Universal Records; and had songs featured on NETFLIX' FIREFLY LANE, ABC's SCRUBS, MTV, and VH-1. He is an EMMY Award-winning composer whose work for Film and TV includes scores for Netflix' Godless, directed by Scott Frank and produced by Steven Soderbergh, starring Jeff Daniels and Michelle Dockery, as well as Universal Pictures' A Walk Among the Tombstones, starring Liam Neeson. His most recent collaboration with Scott Frank is Netflix #1 show The Queen's Gambit and I'm so excited to welcome him on the show! The composer is... Carlos Rafael Rivera --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/composertalk/support

Dina Marto on How to Stay Fit, Multiple Soulmates, Marriage, Gender Equality, C&D The Agency + more Dina Marto is a seasoned entrepreneur, having shattered gender and ethnic glass ceilings during her nearly 20 years as a music executive and small business owner. She is co-founder of C&D | The Agency, an all women-led management agency formed in partnership with marketing professional Courtney Rhodes. Prior to C&D, she founded Atlanta staple Twelve Music & Studios in 2012 and curated one of the South's most sought-after creative environments to develop talent and produce Billboard-shattering hits. Previously, she served on the A&R team for music mogul Antonio “L.A.” Reid at Island Def Jam, acting as A&R coordinator for albums by Young Jeezy, Nas, Rick Ross, Janet Jackson, LL Cool J and more throughout a six year period. Currently, she manages a hand-selected group of talent, as well as consults emerging and established artists. Dina is on the management team for superstar Tip “T.I.” Harris and helped launch his popular podcast “expediTIously” which became #1 on Apple Podcasts. In 2015, Dina received a Proclamation from the City of Atlanta for her contributions to the music industry. Dina is a proud Palestinian who was born in Amman, Jordan and grew up in Marietta, Georgia. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Communications from Oglethorpe University. Follow + Like + Subscribe to all & stay updated !!! https://linktr.ee/plutpodcast _____________________________________________ HOST & GUESTS IG / WEBSITE Toya : https://www.instagram.com/toya.veganmomiana/ https://linktr.ee/Veganmami Alex: https://www.instagram.com/alexemillerofficial/ https://www.alexemiller.com Guest: https://instagram.com/missmarto?igshid=ra0e9b7ucmg0 http://www.dinamarto.com/ http://www.canddtheagency.com/ ______________________________________________ MUSIC BY Liasmrainey https://www.instagram.com/doobiedabadgirl/ ______________________________________________ COMPANY AND ALL INQUIRES The DG Company: http://thedgco.com/ Diaz: https://www.instagram.com/presidentdiaz/ © 2020 All right reserved by The DG Company LLC. & PLUT Podcast --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/plut-podcast/support

Erik is currently Head of Radio Strategy & Promotion at Crush Music. In this episode, he walks us through his storybook path starting at Elektra Records, how he learned the music and radio landscape and strategically worked his way up the ranks. This eventually led him to directly working power players like L.A. Reid and Jay Z at Island Def Jam, to meeting a 16 year old Rhianna and helping break Justin Bieber's career through radio promo.

Bill Marianes welcomes AFR Board Member Scott Davenport to his studio. Scott spent 25 years in the music industry with Island Def Jam and Geffen Records working with those famous artists and many more. Along the way he discovered his WHY and calling in the Orthodox Christian Church. He blends timeless biblical wisdom, and the early Church Fathers with gaming concepts used by youth today, to inspire them to take control of their lives and to be more intentional in every decision they make.

Jenna Andrews is a singer, songwriter, and executive producer who has written and collaborated with artists including Drake, Dua Lipa, Lily Allen, Jessie J, Diplo, and Jennifer Lopez.Jenna began songwriting at age 14 and dropped out of college after 6 months to pursue her music career. She moved to Vancouver and was discovered soon after by famed manager Chris Smith (Alessia Cara, Nelly Furtado), who garnered a deal for Jenna at Island Def Jam.Currently, Jenna is an exclusive A&R consultant for the RECORDS label, founded by industry veteran Barry Weiss. She recently partnered with Weiss to launch TwentySeven Music Publishing in a joint venture with Sony/ATV. Jenna boasts an impressive creative roster at RECORDS, lending her music industry knowledge and creative expertise to rising artists like Noah Cyrus and Lennon Stella.-------------------------------------------Mind of a Mentor is produced by Ossa, a women's podcast network on a mission to increase the visibility, influence and earning power of women in the podcast industry.Are you a woman in podcasting? Apply to join Ossa and get free access to podcast monetization opportunities with our in-house ad booking service. We also offer our members a community of women in podcasting, promotional opportunities, exclusive offers, and resources for podcast growth and development. To apply or for more information, visit joinossa.com.Is your business interested in podcast advertising opportunities? On Ossa's proprietary ad booking platform, you can find podcasts that fit your criteria and budget in just a few clicks. Ossa is uniquely positioned to help you reach the world's most powerful consumers: women. Visit joinossa.com to get started.For lots of great podcasting content, head to ossacollective.com.You can find more information on the guest featured in this episode and on every episode of Mind of a Mentor on ossacollective.com.Mind of a Mentor is hosted by Marla Isackson, Founder & CEO of Ossa. Connect with Marla on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/2zq3W59Questions? Email support@ossacollective.com.Follow Ossa on Social Media:Facebook: @ossacollectivenetwork / https://bit.ly/2NEf9roInstagram: @ossacollective / https://bit.ly/30HozpETwitter: @ossacollective / https://bit.ly/34bradNLinkedIn: @ossa-collective / https://bit.ly/2ZGBACNEnjoying Mind of a Mentor? Please rate & review our show! https://apple.co/2Knky3wMind of a Mentor is an Ossa original show hosted by Marla Isackson, Founder and CEO of Ossa Collective women's podcast network. For more information about Ossa, visit: https://ossacollective.com/Follow Ossa on Socials- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ossaforpodcasters/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ossa-collective/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ossacollectivenetwork

Christine Chiappetta has worked in the music industry for over 20 years. She's worked at several major labels including Mercury, Columbia and Island Def Jam and now she starts a new chapter of her life in artist management at Deckstar/YM&U Group. Megan talks to Christine about how she broke into the music business, the struggles of being a single parent, the importance of taking care of your health and how a positive attitude can change the trajectory of your life.  

At the top of the hour, host Cyrus Webb welcomes back Island Def Jam recording artist Abraham McDonald to discuss his year, being named Conversations' Recording Artist of 2010 and to debut his new Christmas single "Giving You My Heart For Christmas". Then at 30 min. past the hour, Webb talks with recording artist Mordecai about his style, being named one of Conversations' Recording Artists To Watch In 2011 and what's next for him.

Kimono My House  (Island Def Jam); Exotic Creatures of the Deep (Lil' Beethoven)After years of yearning, Bookworm talks with his favorite rock band about the art of writing pop songs.  Join us in this celebration of their 21st album, Exotic Creatures of the Deep.