Podcast appearances and mentions of josh what

Show Notes:Links:MicromortNoblesse obligeJosh's dotfilesGitHub Code SpacesFull Transcript:Ben:Yeah. I've been holding out for the new MacBook Pros. The M1 is pretty tempting, but I want whatever comes next. I want the 16-inch new hotness that's apparently supposed to be launching in November, but I've been waiting for it so patiently for so long now.Josh:Will they have the M2?Ben:Yeah, either or that or M1X. People are kind of unsure what the odds are.Starr:Why do they do that? Why did they make an M1 if they can't make an M2? Why do they have to keep... You just started, people. You can just have a normal naming scheme that just increments. Why not?Josh:M1.1?Ben:That would be awesome.Starr:Oh, Lord.Josh:Yeah, it would.Ben:M1A, Beachfront Avenue.Starr:So last week we did an Ask Me Anything on Indie Hackers, and that was a lot of fun.Josh:It was a lot of fun.Starr:I don't know. One of the most interesting questions on there was some guy was just like, "Are you rich?" I started thinking about it. I was like, "I literally have no idea." It reminded me of when I used to live in New York briefly in the '90s or, no, the early '00s. There was a Village Voice article in which they found... They started out with somebody not making very much money, and they're like, "Hey, what is rich to you?" Then that person described that. Then they went and found a person who had that level of income and stuff and they asked them, and it just kept going up long past the point where... Basically, nobody ever was like, "Yeah, I'm rich."Josh:Yeah. At the end, they're like, "Jeff Bezos, what is rich? What is rich to you?"Starr:Yeah.Josh:He's like, "Own your own star system."Starr:So, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm doing pretty good for myself because I went to fill up my car with gas the other day and I just didn't even look at the price. The other day, I wanted to snack, so I just got a whole bag of cashews, and I was just chowing down on those. I didn't need to save that. I could always get another bag of cashews.Ben:Cashews are my arch nemesis, man. I can't pass up the cashews. As far as the nut kingdom, man, they are my weakness.Starr:I know. It's the subtle sweetness.Ben:It's so good. The buttery goodness.Starr:Yeah, the smoothness of the texture, the subtle sweetness, it's all there.Ben:That and pistachios. I could die eating cashews and pistachios.Josh:There you go. I like pistachios.Ben:Speaking of being rich, did you see Patrick McKenzie's tweet about noblesse oblige?Josh:No. Tell me.Ben:Yeah, we'll have to link it up in the show notes. But, basically, the idea is when you reach a certain level of richness, I guess, when you feel kind of rich, you should be super generous, right? So noblesse oblige is the notion that nobility should act nobly. If you have been entrusted with this respect of the community and you're a noble, then you ought to act a certain way. You got to act like a noble, right? You should be respectful and et cetera. So Patio was applying this to modern day, and he's like, "Well, we should bring this back," like if you're a well-paid software developer living in the United States of America, you go and you purchase something, let's say a coffee, that has basically zero impact on your budget, right? You don't notice that $10 or whatever that you're spending. Then just normalize giving a 100% tip because you will hardly feel it, but the person you're giving it to, that'll just make their day, right? So doing things like that. I was like, "Oh, that's"-Josh:Being generous.Ben:Yeah, it's being generous. Yeah. So I like that idea.Josh:That's cool.Ben:So-Starr:So it's okay to be rich as long as you're not a rich asshole.Ben:Exactly. Exactly. That's a good way to bring it forward there, Starr.Starr:There you go. I don't know. Yeah. I think there's some historical... I don't know. The phrase noblesse oblige kind of grates at me a little bit in a way that I can't quite articulate in this moment, but I'll think about that, and I will get back with you.Josh:Wait. Are you saying you don't identify as part of the nobility?Starr:No.Ben:I mean, I think there's a lot of things from the regency period that we should bring back, like governesses, because who wants to send your child to school in the middle of a COVID pandemic? So just bring the teacher home, right?Starr:Yeah. That's pretty sexist. Why does it have to be gendered? Anyway.Ben:Okay, it could be a governor, but you might get a little misunderstanding. All of a sudden, you've got Jay Inslee showing up on your doorstep, "I heard you wanted me to come teach your kids."Josh:I don't know. I'll just take an algorithm in the home to teach my kids, just entrust them to it.Starr:Yeah. Oh, speaking of bringing things back, I told y'all, but I'll tell our podcast listeners. On Sunday, I'm driving to Tacoma to go to somebody's basement and look at a 100-year old printing press to possibly transport to Seattle and put in my office for no good reason that I can think of. It just seems to be something that I'm doing.Josh:Do you like that none of us actually asked you what you were intending to do with it? I was like, "Yeah, just let me know when you need to move it. I'm there." I just assumed you were going to do something cool with it, but ... Yeah.Starr:I appreciate that. I appreciate the support. I'm going to make little zines or something. I don't know.Josh:Yeah. If I get a lifetime subscription to your zine-Starr:Okay, awesome.Josh:... that would be payment.Starr:Done. Done.Josh:Cool.Ben:Yeah, sign me up, too. I'll be there.Starr:Well, I appreciate that.Ben:I mean, who could resist that invitation, right, because you get to... If you get to help with moving that thing, you get to see it, you get to touch it and play with it, but you don't have to keep it. It's somebody else's problem when you're done with the day, so sounds great to me.Starr:There you go. Well, I mean, if you read the forums about these things, this is one of the smaller ones, so people are just like, "Ah, no big deal. No big deal. It's okay." But I was happy to hear that there's no stairs involved.Ben:That is the deal-breaker. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. But it-Ben:If you ever get the friend helping you to move their piano, you always ask, "Okay, how many flights of steps," right?Starr:Yeah. Oh, I just thought of something I could do with it. I could make us all nice business card to hand out to nobody.Ben:Because we're not going anywhere.Josh:I just think of my last six attempts at having business cards. They're all still sitting in my closet, all six boxes of-Starr:I know. People look at you like, "What, really, a business card? What?"Josh:Yeah, like all six generations.Starr:Yeah.Ben:I hand out one or two per year. Yeah, just random people and like, "Hey, here's my phone number." It's an easy way to give it to somebody.Josh:Just people on the street?Ben:Exactly. Like a decent fellow, "Here you go." Thank you.Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's like, "I've got 1000 of these. I got to justify the cost somehow."Josh:We got to move these.Starr:We could start invoicing our customers by snail mail. I could print a really nice letterhead.Ben:I think we have a few customers who would be delighted to receive a paper invoice from us because then they would have an excuse to not pay us for 90 days.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Isn't owning a printing press like owning a truck, though? Once people know you have it, everyone wants to borrow it.Starr:It's going to be pretty hard to borrow for a 1000-pound piece of iron.Josh:Well, they're going to want to come over and hang out in your basement and do their printing. This is the Pacific Northwest, like-Starr:It's their manifestos.Josh:Yeah. They got to print their manifestos, lists of demands.Starr:They don't want the establishment at Kinko's to be able to see.Josh:Right.Ben:I don't know. It's got to put you on a special kind of watch list, though, if you have a printing press in your home, right? All of a sudden, some people are really interested in what you're up to.Josh:It's like a legacy watch list.Ben:I'm just flashing back to, yeah, in the 1800s when cities, towns would get all-Starr:There you go.Josh:Well, yeah, because they're like-Ben:The mob would come out and burn down the printing press building and stuff.Josh:If you wanted to be a propagandist back then, you had to buy a printing press and then you get put on a watch list. That just never went away. They're still looking for those people. They just don't find as many of them these days.Starr:Yeah. It's so inefficient. It's not the super efficient way of getting the word out, though, I hear, unless you want to be one of those people handing out leaflets on the side of the road.Josh:Well, you could paper windshields in parking lots.Starr:Oh, there you go. Yeah.Josh:Yeah, that's how they used to do it.Starr:No, look at my beautifully hand-crafted leaflet that you're going to throw in the gutter.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:I think you just settled on what your next adventure's going to be after Honeybadger. You're ready to put this business aside and focus on printing up flyers for your local missing cat.Starr:There you go. There you go. Band flyers, that's big business.Josh:But you could get into fancy paper. That's a whole thing up here. It's pretty cool, actually.Starr:Yeah. I don't know. Really, I was like, "Oh, it'd be cool to have a big thing to tinker with." I'm learning about myself that I like having just a big physical project going on, and I'm pretty... Like, I built this backyard office, and that took up two years of my time. Ever since then, I don't have a big physical thing to work on, so I'm thinking this might fill that niche, that niche, sorry. I read a thing that's like don't say niche, Americans. Niche.Ben:I don't know, Starr. Maybe you should think of the children and then think about 50 years from now when you're dead and Ida's cleaning out the house and she's all like, "Why is there this printing press?"Starr:Oh, there you go.Josh:Have to move it.Starr:They'll just sell it with the house.Ben:There you go.Starr:Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is, is that it is wider than the doorway, so I would either have to dissemble it partially or take out the door. I put the door in, so I know how to take it out, so there is a good chance the door's coming out because I have less chance of messing something up if I do that one. But we'll see.Ben:Echo that.Starr:Well, thank you.Josh:You should've put one of those roll-up doors in there.Starr:I should've, yeah.Josh:Those are cool.Starr:What was I thinking?Josh:You really did not plan ahead for this.Starr:Yeah. I mean, walls are really only a couple of thin pieces of plywood, and you can just saw through it.Josh:Just a small refactor.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And that would-Josh:Did y'all see that someone listened to every episode of this podcast in a row?Starr:I know. I feel so bad. I feel so bad for them.Josh:Speaking of-Starr:We're sorry. We're so sorry.Ben:I was feeling admiration. I'm like, "Wow, that's impressive," like the endurance of it.Starr:I just think we would've made different decisions.Ben:I don't know. But not-Josh:Maybe it's pretty good. I haven't gone back and gone through it all and never will, but-Ben:Well, I mean, not only did they say they listened to every episode, but then they were eager for more. They were like, "When are you getting done with your break?" So I guess-Starr:There you go.Ben:... that net it was positive, but-Josh:We must not be too repetitive.Ben:Must not.Starr:Stockholm syndrome.Josh:We're sorry.Ben:Well...Starr:I'm sorry. I don't have anything informative to add, so I'm just going to be shit-posting this whole episode.Ben:Well, I've had an amazing week since we last chatted. I kept reflecting on how I couldn't remember anything that I did over the past whatever months. Well, this past week, I can remember a whole bunch of things that I did. I've been crazy busy and getting a bunch of little things knocked out. But today, today was the capstone of the week because I rolled over our main Redis cluster that we use for all of our jobs, all of the incoming notices and whatevers. Yeah, rolled over to a new Redis cluster with zero downtime, no dropped data, nobody even noticed. It was just smooth as-Starr:Oh my God.Josh:I saw that.Starr:Awesome.Ben:It's going pretty good.Starr:Just like butter?Ben:Just like butter.Starr:They slid right out of that old Redis instance and just into this new... Is it an AWS-managed type thing?Ben:Yeah, both of them were. They all went on the new one, but... Yeah.Josh:It's, what, ElastiCache?Ben:Yep. Smooth like a new jar of Skippy.Josh:I saw that you put that in our ops channel or something.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, that's the topic in our ops channel.Josh:So it's the subject or the topic, yeah. We're making ops run, yeah, like a jar of Skippy.Starr:Why isn't that our tagline for our whole business?Ben:I mean, we can change it.Starr:I don't know why that's making me crack up so much, but it is.Josh:Skippy's good stuff.Starr:Oh my gosh.Josh:Although we-Ben:Actually-Josh:... usually go for the Costco natural brand these days.Ben:Well, we go for the Trader Joe's all-natural brand that you have to actually mix every time you use it. I prefer crunchy over creamy, so, actually, my peanut butter's not that smooth, but... You know.Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's okay. But, yeah, I love our natural peanut butter, except for the whole churning thing, but you can live with that.Starr:We're more of a Nutella family.Ben:Ooh, I do love a Nutella.Josh:Ooh, Nutella.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative), that's good stuff.Josh:We made pancakes the other day, and I was putting Nutella on pancakes. I did this thing, like I made this... We have one of those griddles, like an electric griddle, and so I made this super long rectangular pancake, and then I spread Nutella on the entire thing, and then I rolled it so that you have this-Starr:You know what it's called, Josh.Josh:What is it called?Starr:That's called a crepe.Josh:So it's a crepe, but it's made out of a pancake.Starr:It's a Texas crepe.Ben:Texas crepe.Josh:Yeah, a Texas-Starr:A Texas crepe.Ben:Yes.Josh:Is it really a Texas crepe because that's... Yeah, so, I-Starr:Oh, no, I just made that up.Ben:That sounds perfect, yeah.Josh:Well, it is now.Ben:Yeah, it is now.Josh:It is now, and I highly recommend it. It's pretty amazing.Ben:Throw some Skippy on there and, man, now it's a... That's awesome.Josh:Peanut butter's also good on pancakes.Starr:That's why people listen to us, for our insights about business.Ben:Yeah, there was this one time, speaking of pancakes and peanut butter...Josh:How did we get on pancakes? Like, oh, yeah, ops.Ben:This one time, I went over to dinner at some person's house, and I didn't know what dinner was going to be, but we got there and it was breakfast for dinner, which I personally love. That's one of my favorites.Starr:I knew that about you.Ben:So they're like, "Oh, I'm sorry. Hope you don't think it's weird, but we're having breakfast for dinner." I'm like, "No, no, I love it." So eggs and bacon and waffles, and so I'm getting my waffle and I'm like, "Do you have some peanut butter," and they're like, "Oh my goodness, we thought you would think that was way too weird, and so we didn't have the peanut butter." They whipped it out from in the counter. It's like, "Oh, shew, now we can have our peanut butter, too." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, peanut butter on waffles, yeah."Josh:Everyone had their hidden peanut butter.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah.Starr:And that's how you level up a friendship.Ben:There you go. So, yeah, the week was good. The week was good. Bugs got fixed, things got deployed, and, yeah, just a whole-Josh:Yeah, you had a bunch of PRs and stuff for little things, too, which-Ben:Yeah. And got some practice with the whole delegating thing, got Shava doing some stuff, too. So, yeah, just all-around super productive week.Josh:Nice. I got Java to run in a Docker container, so my week's going pretty good.Ben:And that took you all week?Starr:What do those words mean? I don't...Josh:Yeah.Starr:Was your audio cutting out? I don't know. I just heard a bunch of things I don't understand.Josh:Well, for your own sake, don't ask me to explain it.Starr:Yeah, it's like better not looked at.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Why would you subject yourself to that sort of torture, Josh?Josh:Oh, well, because running Java on an M1 Mac is even worse.Starr:Oh my Lord.Josh:Well, actually, running it, period. But, yeah, like just our Java package. I mean, I've spent half this podcast ranting about our packaging, so I don't need to get too deep into it. But every time I release this thing, it's like it just doesn't work because I've forgotten my... I've changed my system, and Java and Maven package repository are just like that. So I figure if I can make some sort of reproduceable development environment using Docker, then in two years everything will just be smooth as a jar of Skippy.Ben:Skippy. Yeah, yeah.Starr:Well, I had a chance to-Josh:I reckon.Starr:I had a chance to dig into some numbers, which is one of my favorite things to do, and so... I don't know. There was this question that was just bothering me, which was... Well, let me just back up. So we've had some success, as you guys know, in the past year. We've almost doubled our rate of new user sign-ups, not new user sign-ups, like conversion to paid users. We've doubled our paid user conversion numbers, rate, whatever you call it. And so, obviously, revenue from users has gone up as well, but since we are a... Our plans are basically broken down by error rates, right? So what happens when people upgrade is they get too many errors for their plan. It says, "Hey, you should upgrade if you want to keep sending us errors," and they do.Starr:I had this weird situation where it's like I wasn't sure... In our system, revenue from users was coming just from whatever plan they picked when they signed up, and so I was wondering, "Well, what if they sign up, and then a week later they upgrade? That's going to be counted under upgrade revenue instead of new user revenue," which, really, it really kind of should be. So I got to digging, and I found that it doesn't really make that big of a difference. Some people do upgrade pretty quickly after converting, but they don't... It's not really enough to really change things.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Then, also, just sort of offhand, I took a little sneak peek. I've been running this experiment to see if lowering our error quota for our basic, our free plan, it would increase conversions. So I took a little sneak peek at the data. It's too soon to know for sure, but so far the conversion rate, I think, is going to end up being higher, which is what I would expect, so that's good, and-Josh:Nice.Starr:Yeah. And when we're done, I'm going to look at sign-ups just to make sure that they are still in line.Ben:Yeah. Anecdotally, I've seen a smaller window from trial to paid conversion. Well, not trial, but freemium to paid conversion. I've seen people who are signing up, getting on the basic plan, and then within some short time period they're actually going to a team plan.Josh:Oh, that's good to know.Ben:That's happening more often than it was, so... Yeah. So that's-Josh:Cool.Ben:I'm just saying the same thing Starr said but without real data.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, we need a little bit more time to see how things pan out, too, because it's... One thing I figured out that I will share with our readers, our readers, I'm used to doing the blog posts, I'll share with our listeners that I figured out that you really have to pay attention to, on free plans especially, is comparing conversion rates between time periods. So if you make a change and then you wait for a month of data to come in and you're like, "Okay, let's look at the conversion rate for the past month after the change with the conversion rate for the time period before the change," that is really an apples to oranges comparison because on the one hand you've had people who have maybe had a year to upgrade versus people who've had a month to upgrade. So you have to be really careful to make it apples to apples, right, where you only compare... If you have a month worth of users on one side, you compare it to a month worth of users on the other side, and you only count the conversions that happened in that time period.Josh:Makes sense.Starr:Yeah. So, anyway, that's just my little freebie data analysis thing for our listeners.Josh:We should have Starr's weekly data science tip.Starr:Starr's data corner.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Love it.Josh:Yeah. We could move the podcast to segments. We've never done segments. We could introduce segments if we need to spice things up on FounderQuest.Ben:Yeah. Totally. Well, speaking of spicing things up, I had a brilliant idea this morning.Starr:Oh, I want to hear it.Ben:Yeah. So one of the things that I keep an eye on is how much we spend on hosting because that's a good chunk of our expenses. We always want to make more money, and one way to make more money is to have fewer expenses. So I had this brilliant idea on how to cut expenses. We can chop our AWS bill in half by just not running everything redundant.Starr:There you go.Josh:Brilliant.Starr:Would you say the AWS is the sixth Honeybadger employee?Ben:Yeah, pretty much.Josh:Yes. That's a good way to put it, actually.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Well, in the early days, before we were paying ourselves a full salary, I remember we budgeted 25% for Starr, 25% for Ben, 25% for Josh, and 25% for hosting.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, I don't think we ever exceeded the 25%, which is good. That would be a bit high. So, yeah, AWS is like our sixth employee.Starr:Yeah, it's funny because do we even have other expenses?Josh:No.Ben:I mean, salaries is definitely the biggest one, and our health insurance is not cheap either.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Advertising.Starr:I was thinking like marketing, advertising. Yeah.Ben:Yeah. Advertising and marketing, that's the next one.Starr:That's the next 25%.Josh:Can we make AWS our seventh and eighth employee, too?Ben:Eventually may. Yeah, I did some... Oh. Oh. So I told you my great success that I had this morning. Well, your comment just now about AWS made me think about the one failure, just amazingly huge failure that I had also this week, migrating a bunch of data from Redis to DynomoDB. So we have this situation where it's one of those seemed like a good idea at the time kind of thing where we're doing a bunch of counting of people and individuals that hit errors, and we're counting that in Redis. I'm like, "Okay, great," because Redis has this INCRBY and it's easy and it's atomic and, boom, you're done, and I just never paid much attention to it until a few weeks ago, and I was like, "Yo, you know what? That's actually a lot of data in there, and we're keeping that forever, and so it's probably better to put it someplace that's not Redis." So I'm like, "Ah, I know. I'll do DynamoDB because it has an increment thing and...Josh:Yeah.Ben:So I put a table together, and I wrote a migration script, and I migrated a bunch of data. It took two days. It's great. Everything is beautiful. Had buckets of data inside DynomiteDB, and then I went to go query it, and I'm like, "Oh, I can't query it that way because I don't have the right index." Well, that sucks. All right. So you can't create a local index on DynomiteDB without recreating the table. I'm like, "Okay, well, that sucks. I just lost two days worth of data migration but oh well." So dump the table, recreated it with the index, and started redoing the data migration, and I'm like, "Yeah, it might take two days, no problem." So I check on it every half-day or so, and it's not going to be getting done after two days. Three days go by, and I'm checking the work backlog, and I was like, "It's just flat."Ben:Turns out because of that local index, now Dynamo can't really write fast enough because the way they do the partition throttling and stuff because we have some customers who have huge chunks of data. So their partitions are too big for Dynamo to write very quickly. Hot partition keys is the problem. So I just gave up. I'm like, "All right, fine." Drop the table again, recreated it, and now we're just double writing so that, eventually, given six months from now or so, it'll be there and I can replace that thing in Redis.Josh:Nice.Ben:So this is my life, the ups and the downs. So, yeah.Josh:And just waiting six months.Ben:And just waiting six months.Josh:Yeah. That's funny, but that is kind of a pattern in the business. In some cases, we need to just wait for the data to populate itself, and we just have to basically wait our retention period because data tends to turnover and then we can drop the old database or whatever.Ben:Yeah. Yep. But, luckily, nobody noticed my big fail, so it's all good. It didn't impact the customers.Josh:I didn't notice.Ben:So, yeah, busy weekend.Starr:I noticed, but I didn't say anything because I wanted to be nice.Ben:Thank you, Starr. Appreciate that.Starr:Yeah, I [inaudible].Josh:Starr was over there just quietly shaking her head.Ben:Just judging. Just judge-Starr:No, sorry.Ben:So, Josh, I'm going to get back to this Java thing because I'm curious. I remember, I don't know, a year ago or something, we're kind of like, "Maybe we should just not when it comes to Java anymore." So I'm curious what prompted this renewed activity to do a new release.Josh:Well, I don't know. I figured... I don't know. Didn't we say we were just not going to do any releases?Ben:Yeah, it just-Josh:It's not high on my list of development. We're not spending a bunch adding stuff to it, but there are dependency updates that have been getting merged in. I merged the Dependabot PRs and stuff. There's something else. There might be some small PR or something that someone submitted that was sitting there on release, and I just can't handle just unreleased code sitting on the pane. So it's just one of those things that's been sitting on my backlog halfway down the list just gnawing at me every week, so I figured I'd dive in and at least get some sort of quick release, relatively quick release process down so we can just continue to release dependency updates and stuff, like if there's a security update or something, so...Ben:Yeah.Josh:Some people still do use it, so I want to make sure they're secure.Ben:Make sure they're happy. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. But, yeah, that's a good point. We are not treating all platforms as equal because we just don't have the resource, so we need to focus on the stuff that actually is making us money.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, it's tough when very few of our customers are actually using that for it to get a whole lot of priority.Josh:That said, we have already put a lot into it, so as far as I know, it works well for the people that have used it.Starr:So are y'all encouraging our customers to do more Java?Josh:Yes, switch to Java. Then switch to SentryBen:Ride a wave.Josh:... or something.Ben:So I've been contemplating this new laptop showing up, right, whenever Apple finally releases it and I get to get my hot little hands on it. I've been thinking, well, the one big downside to getting a new laptop is getting back to a place where you can actually work again, right, getting all your things set up. Some people are smart, like Josh, that have this DOT file, this repo, on GitHub, and they can just clone that, and they're off to the races. I'm not that smart. I always have to hand-craft my config every time I get a new machine. But I'm thinking-Josh:Oh. Take the time.Ben:So, yeah, I'm not looking forward to that part, but GitHub has released Codespaces, and so now I'm thinking, "Ooh, I wonder if I could get all our repos updated so that I could just work totally in the cloud and just not even have a development set-up on my machine." Probably not, but it's a fun little fantasy.Josh:Well, then you could have any little... You could work on your iPad.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, I don't even need a laptop. Then I could save the company money. That's brilliant, Josh.Josh:Yeah. You could work at the library.Starr:Yeah. It's like, "So your main ops guy, I see he's primarily working from a five-year-old iPad."Ben:At a library.Starr:In a library.Josh:An iMac.Starr:When he gets paged, he has to run to the nearest Starbucks and get that wifi.Josh:Yeah. I got to say, having your DOT files all ready to go and all that is pretty good. Also, I've got my Brewfile, too, so all of my Homebrew stuff is automated in that.Ben:Well, that's clever. I never even thought of that.Josh:It does make it very quick to bootstrap a new machine.Ben:Yeah. Maybe I should take this as initiative to actually put my stuff into DOT files repo and get to that point.Josh:Careful, though, because you might... I've had four computers between your current one and now, so you might end up switching more often because it's easier to do it.Ben:Appreciate that warning. That's good.Josh:Yeah. Speaking of the M1s, I love the M1 MacBook Air that I have. But the battery has been... I don't know what happened, but the battery was fantastic, I don't know, first few months. Ever since then, it's been kind of like it hasn't been lasting. I've been surprised at how fast it's draining, and I go and look at, whatever, the battery health stuff, and it says that health is down to 86% and the condition says it's fair, which does not make me feel warm and fuzzy.Josh:It has 50 cycles, so I think it might be defective, and that sucks because otherwise this machine is maybe one of the best Macs I've had. I guess... Yeah. I've had a few compatibility issues with the architecture, but it's not too bad. I mean, I'm not a Java developer at least, so...Ben:Yeah, I think you need to take that in for a service because that is way soon for that kind of degradation.Josh:Yeah. I might need to do something.Ben:That's a bummer.Josh:Yeah. I don't know. I might have to ship it in because I think our local Portland Apple Store is shuttered currently.Ben:All those protests?Josh:Yeah. It's got eight fences around it and stuff. Downtown Portland's a little rough these days.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Well, I mean, you can always take the trip out to Seattle.Josh:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or there's other... I forget. There's an Apple Store that's not too far outside of Portland. It's where I bought this, so I could take it down there.Starr:Yeah. I'm sad now because I bought my second MacBook from that store in Portland.Josh:Yeah? It's a good store.Ben:Speaking of you coming out to Seattle, I was thinking the other day that maybe we should do a company-wide get-together sometime soon. Be fun to see everybody again in-person.Josh:It would be. Now that we're all vaxxed, we're all super vaxxed. I don't know that Starr is even down for that, though. I'm just looking at Starr.Starr:I don't know. Like, I-Josh:You don't look like you're too stoked on that idea.Starr:I don't know. I'm just-Josh:What with Delta lurking.Starr:The problem is, Josh, is that you have not been reading nursing Twitter.Josh:Uh-huh (affirmative).Starr:So I don't know. Yeah, it's doable. Currently, I think the CDC just released a thing that said vaccine efficiency of preventing COVID infections... It's very good still at preventing bad, I don't know, disease, health problems, whatever, keeping people out of the hospital. It's very good at that. With Delta, it's about 65% effective at preventing infections, and so if you get infected, you can transmit it to other people.Josh:Right.Starr:Yeah. So it's not impossible. It's just like we're just back to this fricking calculus where every possible social interaction you just have to run it through your spreadsheet and your risk analysis and... Ugh.Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's like, "Are you worthy of the hassle? No. Sorry, can't make it."Starr:Yeah. Yeah. It's like, "Okay, so what's the probability that meeting with you is going to send my child to the hospital? Okay, that's low enough. Sure."Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's just such a weird world.Josh:Wouldn't it be funny if when you get into your car in the morning, it reads out the probability of you dying in a car accident?Starr:Oh, yeah. Do you know about millimorts?Josh:No.Starr:Oh, you should go Google millimorts. A millimort is a one in a million chance that you will die, and so there's tables and stuff that you can find online that have different activities and what the number of millimorts is about them. So you can compare, and you can be like, "Okay, so going skydiving has this many millimorts as driving so many miles in a motorcycle."Josh:That's awesome. Okay, we have to link this in the show notes because I want to remember to look this up-Starr:Okay. I'll go find it.Josh:... so that I can depress people.Starr:I think there was a New York Times article, too.Ben:Yeah, I totally have to see this because I just signed up for a motorcycle training course and I'm going to get my endorsements so that I know exactly what kind of risks... Though that's probably part of the course, where they try to scare you out of actually getting your endorsement. They probably...Josh:By the way, I'm really glad my morbid humor or my morbid joke landed because for a minute there-Starr:Oh, I'm sorry, it's a micromort.Josh:Oh, a micromort. Okay.Starr:I was like, "Isn't milli 1000?"Josh:Minimort, like-Starr:Milli is 1000.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, that grated at me. I know. My old chemistry teachers are just giving me an F right now.Ben:Yeah, I got to see that.Josh:Well, I'm sure you'll be all right, Ben. I mean, the risk of a motorcycle is much higher than a car, but you just can't think about that all the time because the fun... I'm sure the fun is much...Ben:[inaudible].Josh:It's worth it.Ben:It's worth every hazard. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. The risk is worth the reward.Ben:Yesterday, I just hit 250 miles on the odometer on my scooter, so loving that. It's a lot of fun.Josh:That's cool.Starr:That's a lot of miles for a scooter.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Starr:I guess you just love to scoot.Ben:I love to scoot. Well, there you go, Starr. There's our happy ending after that slight dip there.Starr:That slight delay into reality.Josh:I like the dark humor. I don't know. It's always a gamble, though, with depending on... Yeah. But I think, Starr, you're always down to get dark.Starr:Oh, yeah. I'm down with the darkness. All right. Well, should we wrap it up?Ben:Let's wrap it.Starr:Okay. This has been a very witchy episode of FounderQuest, so if you liked it, go give us a review and... Yeah, if not, just keep listening to us. Make it a hate listen. You got to have a couple of those in your line-up. 

Punk Rock Reflection 27 - Gabbi and Josh: What to Keep and What to Leave Behind On this Punk Rock Reflection, Mike shares two separate stories. One is professional and one is personal but they both taught him the same lesson. Sometimes it's okay to stop. We don't need to chase every thing, push as hard as we can, or do more than healthy. That is true for us all as educators and as humans. So, pump the brakes, slow down, and as a wise man once said "life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." Intro/Outro music - "A Walk" by Bad Religion Find us at: www.punkrockclassrooms.com www.teachbetter.com/podcasts/punk-rock-classrooms Twitter twitter.com/punkclassrooms twitter.com/mikerearnshaw twitter.com/JoshRBuckley Check out our PRC Playlist here for all of the rad tunes we use: bit.ly/PRCPlaylist

Show notes:Links:Write for usMaybeJosh Pigford Flu dataFull transcript:Ben:And today we don't have Starr, because Starr is on vacation this week, fireside chat.Josh:I will be on vacation next week, and the week after.Ben:Nice.Josh:I don't know if you saw, I extended my vacation.Ben:I didn't see this.Josh:Yeah. So, surprise!Ben:Two weeks back to back. That's a record.Josh:Yeah. I decided I'm feeling it and I don't think a week is going to be enough. So just thought I'd go for it.Ben:Yeah, I get that. I get that. It's funny, I was looking... We started this vacation calendar, recently, since we are looking at transitioning away from Basecamp, where our vacation calendar was, we are now putting a vacation calendar in Google calendar, because we use G Suite for all of our stuff. And I set up this vacation calendar, and I noticed that Starr put one on there, and then Josh put on a vacation and then Kevin put on a vacation. And then, Ben Findley, just week after week after week, it's like everybody's taking a vacation. I was like, all right, so I put myself on vacation.Josh:Yeah, you got to put yourself in there. Yeah.Ben:I did. Yeah. I added myself yesterday, for the week after Ben Findley's vacation.Josh:I don't know if you went and... I went in and just put a bunch of vacations for the rest of the year for-Ben:I saw that.Josh:... myself. Yeah.Ben:That's awesome.Josh:I mean, they might change, but I figured, if I at least put them in there, that'll force me to think about it and decide. Because that's been an ongoing problem, I always wait too long and then, finally, take the vacation when I just desperately need it, and I want to avoid that cycle, like we're supposed to be. This is supposed to be sustainable.Ben:This is a calm company. It means, lots of vacations.Josh:Yeah. We should be calm if we're running a calm company.Ben:I like that idea of putting on these dates tentatively and just planning on it. I might try that.Josh:Yeah. You should just plan them out. Also, yeah, I put our traditionally long winter vacation on there too, which I think is currently the last two weeks of December and the first week of January, which we can always move that around or sometimes we do the Hack week or whatever.Ben:Yeah. I've come to cherish that tradition. I like having that-Josh:It's nice.Ben:Knowing that's going to be downtime. You know?Josh:Yeah.Ben:I mean-Josh:I like the first week of the year off is kind of... there's something about that, where you don't have to go back to work the day after New Year's or whatever. That feels really nice.Ben:I mean, in reality, we're still on call. So if something broke, were going to work, but, yeah, it is nice not having that expectation of showing up and doing actual productive stuff.Josh:Yeah. Yeah. It's the low bandwidth mode.Ben:Yeah. It's also this past winter when we did that, I used that to just experiment with some stuff, work-related stuff like Elasticsearch and whatever, so that's kind of fun. It's a tinkering... even if we don't do an official Hack Week, it's still a good time to do some tinkering and get some of those creative juices going.Josh:Read some books on computer science or something like that, get excited about it again.Ben:Well, going through the SOC 2 compliance thing, the type two for the first time audit, one of the things that I came across that was new was this continuing education tracking thing. So the auditor wants evidence that we're actually doing continuing education for our employees. We always do conferences and stuff, but 2020 was a bad year for conferences, and we've never really tracked continuing education. We just like, "Yeah, let's do this conference," or whatever, and it's kind of ad hoc. And now it's like, "Oh, we need to track this, it's a good idea to plan something." So yeah, digging out those old computer science books or taking a course or doing a conference. Got to do it.Josh:Which is, well, you got to do it, but it's also, to me, that's one of my favorite things to do. I really like learning, so even in my spare time, that's what I like to do.Ben:Same.Josh:So I realized even with, yeah, my perfect workweek is a couple of hours maximum a day of doing the day-to-day things that you have to do, and then spend the rest of the day reading or learning something or working on improving your skills.Ben:Yep. Yeah. I to-Josh:That's what makes me happy.Ben:I don't try to do that every day, I like the idea, but I try to do that on Fridays. Friday to me is like the decompression day, I'm cruising into the weekend now. And so I try to put aside all the normal stuff and just something kind of interesting. Before we got on this morning, I was playing with some Docker stuff, not that we use Docker, but maybe we will someday, and just fiddling with it. You know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:I think it's kind of fun.Josh:Yeah. Yeah. I like that.Ben:Until we get one of those customer requests that come in, I'm like, "Oh, I have to do some actual work now." And so, love our customers, but sometimes they can be kind of inconvenient, legitimate complaints about things need to be fixed.Josh:Or when there's an ops emergency, and so I drop everything and fix it. You had some of that going on this week. I know.Ben:But with both you and Starr got to experience those ops emergencies. It was actually a funny, so Starr, is on vacation, but the Starr was still on call for part of that time.Josh:The first night. Yeah. Because she had scheduled me to take over, was it yesterday? Whatever day it was-Ben:But in the morning.Josh:... but it was the night before. Yeah. It was like-Ben:Yeah, so I imagine in the future she might schedule you to swap a bit earlier, but-Josh:Yeah. I feel bad, because she said that, I guess, they had to get up early for a road trip and it's like 2:00 AM or something, or actually it was like 4:00 AM, I think, by the time the alerts died down.Ben:Yeah. The bad part was that there wasn't really anything to do. There was this spike in memory usage on our Redis Cluster, but it resolved itself, but only after sending some alerts saying, "Hey, somebody better pay attention to this," because that's a critical part of our infrastructure.Josh:Well, I mean, that's happened to me a few times. I mean, that's usually my on-call experience to be honest, and if it's worse than that, there's a good chance I'm waking you up anyways. But I mean, that's part of... You have a system well-architected, at least to the point, where if there is something, it does usually resolve itself, but still you need someone to sit up with it and babysit it until it does, just to make sure. And I mean, it would be totally unfair that you're the one who builds the system and also has to babysit it all the time, so our on call schedule is like a babysitter rotation.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned that, because I was looking at this vacation schedule, it's like, "Oh, when should I take vacation?" So I went and looked at the PagerDuty rotation to try and schedule my vacation away from my rotation on PagerDuty, so I didn't have to swap. And PagerDuty has changed their UI a little bit since the last time I looked at it, and I logged in and it's like, "When are you on call next?" And it says, "You're always on call." Because I'm the-Josh:Because you're level one.Ben:I'm the backup schedule. Yeah.Josh:I know, and that's a problem. I've been thinking about that, so you're not the only one worried about that, but, yeah.Ben:It was just kind of funny. I mean, it hasn't been a quality of life issue for a long time, because we've had so few problems, but still I am that backup. If it goes, what is it, more than half an hour or something, then I get woken up. But it was just kind of funny to see, you're always on call.Josh:Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'd say that's the major downside of our business is just the nature of that. And also just the nature of expertise. I feel like when I leave, it's much harder on the team, solving a lot of the customer support issues that come up related to our libraries and things. And I mean, that's part of the reason we've wanted to bring more people in the business, but then you end up with more people in the business, and then you're tied to a management role that you can't leave too. So there's trade-offs there.Ben:Yes. It's the struggle of all the bootstrap SaaS operators that are small like us, how do I get time away when I'm the solo founder? Or maybe it just two co-founders, how do we take a break? Justin has talked about this with their customer support for Transistor. They felt like they were always just having to stay on top of that, and they could never take a break. And so, they hired someone to help out with that. And having Kevin around has really helped spread the rotation out, and he's taken up a lot of the ops stuff and gotten familiar with it. So-Josh:Yeah. He's taken an interest in it, which is good.Ben:Yeah. It's been great for me.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. It's a hard problem to solve, because, I mean, yeah, you could add people, but then you got to pay those people, and so your profitability takes a hit, so it's a balance.Josh:Yeah. And I mean, I think, I don't know about you, I prefer to stay small. I don't think... I've moved past the idea of I want to have a company with tons of employees or whatever. I think that actually would make... I wouldn't be as happy with that situation, probably, as with our current situation, with a few employees and small team. We probably spend a lot more time trying to solve these problems than larger companies do, because they just throw people at it. But yeah, I feel like-Ben:That just introduces a different set of problems, right?Josh:It does.Ben:You really just have to pick which set of problems you want. Do you want to be tied to the business? Or do you want to deal with the layers of management and the people problems that come with not being tied, personally, to the business?Josh:Yeah. So, yeah-Ben:Yeah.Josh:I don't know, over time though, I think I tend towards wanting to spend less time on the business or at least, when I say, on the business, I mean, less time on those things that I just have to be doing and don't want to be doing. I want to try to always be doing the things I want to be doing. And yeah. I mean, I know just general management stuff does not fall into that bucket of what I want to be doing.Ben:It's not your dream in life to be a manager.Josh:Nope. It's not even my dream in life to be traveling the world 200 days a year or something, and preaching the gospel or something.Ben:Yeah. I've thought about that recently too. Looking at companies that get really big, whether they take a bunch of money or not regardless, but they turn into tens and then hundreds of employees. And I think about what would that be to be a CEO of that kind of company? And I'm just like, I just don't know that I would really enjoy that. There would be a certain set of excitement, yes, no doubt, about having that kind of business.Ben:I can think of right now about Tobi at Shopify, because I remember when Tobi started at Shopify, and watch that grow. And just thinking about, it's got to be pretty fun and in some ways to be Tobi, to be on top of this organization and doing these cool things and seeing the impact that you're making. And they've gone public, there's a whole lot of cool stuff there, but there's also a lot of annoying stuff there. That come along with those cool things. And it's like, ah, I think I'm happy where I am. I don't think I need to be the CEO of Shopify or something that size to have that fulfillment in my career right now.Josh:Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that you find new ways to guard your time and it just becomes even more, that's why no one can reach the CEO, usually. But, I mean, it's all... Yeah. It just puts you in an even more critical position. The pressure and responsibility must still be pretty, it just must be massive. But-Ben:It must be.Josh:Yeah. I guess, I don't really know, because I've never been in that position. I'm just guessing.Ben:Right, right. And life phases might change somethings and maybe when the kids are grown and gone, maybe you'll feel like, ah, I want a new challenge, something bigger. I think you see that a lot with founders, like us, who build something, sell it. And they're like, "Huh, let me try a bigger swing. Let me try..." Like Josh is doing right now, he did it did Baremetrics, he sold that, and now he's building out Maybe, and I think he's definitely thinking bigger scope kind of stuff.Josh:It looks like it. Yeah.Ben:Or you can just go buy a ranch somewhere and just chill, right?Josh:Right. Well, I think it's kind of... I mean, yeah, those aren't unsimilar to me. I mean, I think the big point is or the major thing is, if you're financially set and you can, again, do whatever you want to do, then, yeah, go do it. But again, even, say, if we sold the business and didn't have to work another day in our lives, we could just go buy that ranch and just kick back on it. If I decided to go and start another company, I wouldn't want to start a company that is going to demand my time and involvement, like most companies do.Josh:I'd probably try to go start another Honeybadger or something, maybe, you could go larger scale, but something that solves for those problems. Yeah, and I don't know what that looks like, but I feel like some companies of the future are kind of like... The ones that GitLab, that take a more open source approach. I don't know exactly what being in charge of GitLab is like, but I'm sure it's not a walk in the park either, but experimenting with new ways to spread responsibility around. Yeah.Ben:Yeah. And maybe the answer is, that's a scenario where you do have to take a bunch of money, so you can get those employees to make that lift, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. I think if we sold Honeybadger and we did something new, I think it has to be different in some dimension or otherwise, why did you sell?Josh:Yeah. It would have to be.Ben:And so maybe it's a different audience. Maybe it's a different size. Maybe it's venture backed versus doing it from scratch. I think it would have to be different in some significant way for it to be interesting enough to actually do versus just spending the rest of my retirement tinkering or whatever.Josh:Yeah. Yeah. I guess, getting to that critical point with employees is the thing that's hard, going from what we have, which is kind of like where we're so small that we have things we have to still be here for, but we can just disconnect whenever we want to, for the most part, like take a week off if we want to, and just do customer support or be on call. But jumping from that to the point where, say, you have 50 employees or something and you're the CEO, and you can just be like, "Okay, everyone, I'm going to be gone for a week, carry on." Which I think you can do when you have other people managing people.Josh:But in between that, there's a very... it's like if you're growing out your hair, there's that weird, you know, the annoying stage where your hair, just like you hate it. And it's like, it just doesn't work. And you're... Yeah, it just seems like that exists when you're trying to grow a business where it's hard with 10 people, all 10 of those people are looking to you for leadership on a regular basis. And you're still connected to the major centers of the business.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I hadn't really thought of it that way, and that makes total sense to me. There's those growing pains that you would get going from one phase to another.Josh:And I guess, I'm not sure, having been doing what we're doing as long as we have, I'm not convinced that I want to go through that pain that I know is there to get to that stage where I know that we probably would be in another... we'd be back in the position where we could probably have more freedom, or hire a CEO then to just run the business, which people do.Ben:Well, I mean, I wonder, so two thoughts that I have. I wonder, if you're a venture back startup, if you start from scratch with a bunch of money in the war chest, do you avoid some of those growing pains? Because you can just, right out of the gate, hire a bunch of people, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:So I wonder that, and then the follow on-Josh:Good thought.Ben:Yeah, I have no idea. And the follow on thought is, well, like in our situation, we've been around for a long time, we have profitable business, we're great, what if we take on an investment now, and then that gives us that money to hire a bunch of people? To help you accelerate through that growing pain phase, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:If you had one or two people here and there that's painful, but if you add 10 or 20 people, I don't know, maybe that's a different kind of pain, but maybe it's a better kind of pain. Because it's like ripping the band-aid off, because you did all done at once.Josh:Yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah. That's something that I hadn't factored in, in that line of thinking. So, yeah, I think he could be right, that that is a common use of funding and capital investment and all that.Ben:Yeah. I would be open to that idea, if we had figured out the sales machine. If we could say, "Oh, we can deploy X amount of people, and we know that X amount of revenue would come in, because we'd be doing these Y activities."Josh:Totally.Ben:But we haven't quite got there yet. We have a really strong inbound, but we don't really have an outbound or we don't have a process even for dealing with inbound sales, because everything right now is hands-off, right?Josh:It's not scalable. Yeah. Yeah. So, we're doing this to ourselves, to some extent, just in our own lack of knowledge or experience in those areas, but that's part of the learning process. So-Ben:Yeah, you're right.Josh:... we are... I think it's smart though, to be focusing on those areas now, to open up those possibilities in the future. So that if we change our minds and realize that we could scale the business to a point where we can, again, have the same thing that we have now only potentially better because we don't have those, even the small responsibilities, that drag us back in, on a regular basis.Ben:Yeah, yeah. We're still choosing to grow slow and to keep it pretty calm, keep that calm company.Josh:Yeah. That's the point of calm-Ben:Right. If we take it big chunk of money, we could hire the VP of Marketing, the VP of sales, the VP of engineering, right? And then we could-Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:... presumably step back once we got these people set on the, here's the goal, now get it, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:But, yeah, that would be a less calm company, for sure.Josh:Yeah.Ben:At least for a while.Josh:Yep. And even if that's to the extent that that's possible, yeah, I don't know, I mean, you still have to build the idea of the calm company into that business. Otherwise, you'll just end up with 30 to 50 people that are chaotic and-Ben:Right. Yeah.Josh:... calling you all the time or emailing you. Yeah. So I guess I'll revise my statement, it's like, I'm not willing to grind it out to get to the next level. If that's what it comes down to, I'm happy, let's just stay where we are for... I'm fine, we run the business as an asset and try to build the lifestyle aspect of it more than anything else. But if we can find a way to scale the business and then maybe invest in it so that we can accelerate the jump, or a hair faster, so to speak.Ben:I like that.Josh:I'm terrible at metaphors. I feel like this one might actually be working, but Starr's the metaphor person. So I feel like I'm really on... I'm going to risky position right now.Ben:Better stop while you're ahead, right?Josh:Yeah.Josh:No more metaphors for the rest of the day.Ben:I think that the hair growth thing works, just have to take care of not to offend all of our bald listeners, you know?Josh:Right. Yeah. So I went to a Starbucks this week and did some work inside of it-Ben:Whoa.Josh:... without a mask.Ben:Wow. That's brave.Josh:I still did the distancing stuff just because it seems smart. I wasn't hugging everyone, but, yeah, they've got it all posted, it's like, if you're vaccinated, the mask is optional. Plus I was drinking a beverage, so... But yeah, I had a Zoom session at the Starbucks, and it was a novel experience.Ben:Very nice. Yeah. I went to a Target this week for the first time in a long time, and yeah, I just put my mask on out of habit. It's like, get out of the car, put the mask on, go in the store, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:And I'm walking around and I don't know, maybe a quarter of the people there didn't have masks, it's like, oh yeah, it's not required anymore, really. I'm vaccinated. I'm like, huh, cool. And I'll just get a long my way, but it's like, I have to get used to this new reality of not having to wear a mask.Josh:That not everyone... Yeah. Although I still suspect that a large portion of the people that are going to take them off or aren't going to wear them are the people that were always not wearing them.Ben:Yeah. Although I will say, if I were still doing mass transit every day, like I used to do, I would definitely be still wearing a mask, if it was any time cold or flu season-Josh:Oh yeah.Ben:I'm not going back to that prehistoric animal way of not covering myself during germy season.Josh:Well, there's that flu statistics that I guess have been coming in from the CDC, since the season is coming to an end 2020, 2021 or whatever, and it seems the whole social distancing. Masking situation, hand-washing really drastically improved that situation. I don't know, I forget what the numbers were, but it was ridiculous.Ben:Yeah, it's dropped like 99% or something crazy.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Something like that.Ben:It's nuts.Josh:Which is-Ben:It's awesome.Josh:... wild. Give it a little time for the data to get worked out, I guess, because just seems prudent. But I mean, either way, it seems like it's a massive thing.Ben:Yeah. I would definitely need to normalize mask wearing during germs, no doubt.Josh:Yeah. Yep. I'm cool with never getting sick again.Ben:Totally. Well, and on that note, this fall kids will actually be going to school, and it'll be an exciting adventure. All those, snot nosed punks running around getting each other sick again.Josh:Yeah. That'll be the real test. That's just going to knock us out. Yeah. Yeah. My daughter's, Tatum's starting kindergarten in the fall.Ben:Wow.Josh:And that'll be her... We did preschool at home. So yeah, that's going to be wild.Ben:First school experience, huh?Josh:Yes.Ben:Yeah, that's-Josh:I'm entering a new stage. I feel like, a new phase.Ben:Yeah. It's bittersweet. You're like, oh, that's so exciting. And it's like, oh.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, yeah. I remember those days with fondness.Josh:What's also going to be weird, because it's going to force me to start interacting with other parents in the community, which I think that's my biggest thing right now is like, oh, no, I-Ben:You better watch out, next thing you know, you'll be the president of the PTSA. You'll be organizing bake sales, and-Josh:Yeah, we're definitely going to be the... I think we'll be the weird parents, in our area, anyway.Ben:It's funny. I've noticed this, this arc, your first kid goes into kindergarten and you're so into PTA and PTSA. You're like, "I'm going to take care of all the things. I'm going to volunteer in the classroom." And you're really engaged and involved and it's so good. And then over time you start to back off a bit. It's like, "Oh, I don't really need to do all the things, there are other people that help," you know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:And then by the time they get to the tail end and they get close to graduation from high school, you're just like, "I don't even care what they're doing anymore. Educate yourself, kid. You figure it out."Josh:Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean I had to basically educate myself, so you can.Ben:Yeah, yeah. Totally. It's funny seeing the new wave of parents come in every year to the PTA, and then all of a sudden they go out, again, as the new wave comes in.Josh:And you having been there for a while, that sounds kind of like, oh no metaphors. Like if you go to a gym regularly and every New Year's, like the first two weeks of January, that's what it sounds to me.Ben:Yep. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.Josh:Because everyone comes in and is just super dedicated, and then over the next couple of weeks, it's just, they all filter out again and you're back to the same 10 people in the afternoon or whatever.Ben:Right. Yeah. And all the regulars get annoyed because of it. They're like, "Oh, all these people crammed in one place."Josh:Yeah. All this exuberance is just... Yeah.Ben:Yeah. So gym, that's a open question for me right now. So I still have a gym membership. I haven't canceled it, but I haven't been since the beginning of the pandemic. And even though I'm a 100% vaccinated, and I'm feeling invincible, still, the gym is one place I'm like, I don't know. I still feel kind of uncomfortable at that. Still trying to decide whether or not I'm going to keep that membership, because I really enjoy going, but I don't know, I don't really want to wear a mask while I'm exercising, that just sucks.Josh:Yeah, that was mine too, I just didn't... Yeah.Ben:Yeah. And wiping down everything, I'm not a super sweaty person, so I'm not the kind of person that really needs to wipe down the equipment as soon as I'm done with it, because it's like, I just touch it. I didn't have a bath on it. And so I'm just... I don't know. I don't even know if they have a kitchen cleaning procedure that you have to do now, because, again, I haven't been to the gym, but I don't know. It's tough.Josh:I haven't been to the gym, because I got my home gym in 2019, the end of 2019, and so it's been that long. But I do sweat and I was used to just wiping down the equipment in between, it's not that bad. Especially if you... you can even carry a towel with you if you want, but most gyms have the whatever clothes-Ben:Yeah. Wipes.Josh:... and spray bottles and stuff. It's not the end of the world, but the mask thing, yeah, the idea of working out in a mask does not appeal to me. Even though it could be a plus for some people, like the people that are training for high altitudes and stuff. Some people wear the mask on the treadmills and I'm sure those people are like, "Sweet, that's just extra challenge."Ben:Right, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:So I'm still doing the home stuff and it's just not as-Josh:You should-Ben:... awesome.Josh:... give it a try.Ben:Yeah. I guess I should. I should call them and say, "Hey, what's the deal down there?"Josh:I mean, I figure from what has been reported, the vaccines are very effective.Ben:Yeah, totally.Josh:And I mean, I understand the hesitancy, give it some time, obviously, that's prudent, the wait and see approach is completely valid. But after that, I mean, if you're immune, you're immune. So at some point you have to start-Ben:Living again.Josh:Yeah. Getting back out there, putting yourself back out there. But I mean, it's not a bad thing to be cautious, so I understand.Ben:Yeah. Just get back in the habit, I guess.Josh:Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, I'm also not at the gym with a bunch of people spitting in my face. So just to be clear, I'm giving this advice from my bunker.Ben:Yeah. You've got the sweet home gym set up. I'm jealous.Josh:Yeah. Actually, I've reduced my routine a little bit lately, and I've actually been doing more yoga and flexibility things, because I always go really hard with the weightlifting, and I'm not getting any younger. And so injuries are more frequent, and so I've been doing two days, two days a week right now just to keep up the major lifts and stuff, but kind of taking a little bit of a break.Ben:Have you done any of the Apple Fitness stuff?Josh:Yeah, I did one of the yoga sessions on it, when I was just... because I did yoga last year, when I had some injury stuff, and it was good, and I should have just kept doing it. And so, that's why I tried when I first started getting back into it this year, and it was really good. It was a little intense though for a beginner like me. So I've been doing this more beginner training, learning the actual postures and stuff. But then my plan is just to use the Apple Fitness stuff after that, because they seem like they have a lot of good just general-Ben:Yeah. I really like the Apple Fitness stuff. I've done some of the yoga. I didn't do the 30 minute stuff. I did the 10 minutes stuff, because I'm a super beginner, and so I did the really easy yoga, which was great for me. And I've done their high intensity stuff, which was pretty good. I'm not really an aerobics kind of person. I run and I ride, I figure I get enough aerobics that way. But when it was raining and cold and stuff, I just did the high intensity stuff, and that was pretty cool. I really liked that. And I've done their cycling, which is okay, but it's geared, at least the ones that I did, were geared towards being on a indoor cycling machine where you can adjust the intensity easily and stuff.Ben:I'm not, I'm on my own bike on a trainer, where the wheel is propped up and it's on that little roller. And so a lot of the instructions in the thing were, "Okay, let's dial up the resistance." And it's like, "Well, okay, I don't have that good of a setup here. I can't just dial up the resistance." So I had to alter it a bit, but it was still nice.Josh:You got to get your weighted boots on.Ben:I mean, but they do have trainers like mine that actually do have remote control, and so you can do that, but I don't have one. But anyway, I really enjoyed them. The fitness things are cool, and they're set into 30, 20, 10 minute intervals. And so you can like, "Oh, what kind of workout do I want today?" Yeah, I really like it.Josh:Yeah. I like the high intensity stuff for cardio a lot. And otherwise , yeah, I don't know, I could get into running, I think, but I really like walking, so I'll go for super long walks. But again, time is sometimes a factor that... sometimes I'll even just go for the afternoon and just start walking and end up back home at dinner time or something like that. I like that, but I've never been like going out too much. I've gone through a few running phases, but it never really stuck. So I like the high intensity stuff, because as far as I understand, it gives you some of the same benefits without having to run for an hour or something.Ben:Yeah, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:I too love long walks.Josh:Yep. I think that's a great way to spend some of your just general workweek. That's the good alternative to sitting and grinding away at the desk-Ben:No doubt.Josh:... for eight hours a day or whatever. This morning I was wrestling with my kids and stuff. And I was picking them up individually and lifting them up and then throwing them on the bed. And then I was like, "Okay, now I have to go, I have to go back to work." And they're like, "No, no. We just, we want one more." So I was like, "Okay, I've got one more." So I picked them both up, one in each arm. And I do, basically, a lateral raise with them. And as I do this, I don't know what they weigh, but Tatum's over 50 pounds, and of course they're unbalanced, but my entire upper body, just like... I hadn't done any stretching or anything, so my entire upper body just cracks all over, and Caitlin, she's like, "Are you okay?" Apparently it was like, she was concerned for me. So, yeah, I realize, man, it's not the good old days anymore.Ben:You're getting up there in years.Josh:Not that out there, but at the age where you start to notice these things, right?Ben:Yeah.Josh:But I'm not past the point of trying.Ben:So did you do anything this week? I didn't do a whole lot actually. Well, I mean, I did responding to those urgent issues-Josh:Like working, you mean?Ben:Yeah.Josh:I did not get a whole lot of work done this week no. Yeah, no, you're good. I figure, yeah, I mean, again, yeah, I'm ready for a break, so I've been trying my best, but-Ben:You're coasting into that vacation.Josh:Yeah, it's been a struggle.Ben:That's awesome.Josh:But I mean, I think, we need to learn not to feel bad about that. Having a "unproductive" week. And I mean, if I'm... Yeah, honestly, I did things this week, it just wasn't as much work things. Dealt with things at home, read some books, that sort of stuff, that's still being productive, right?Ben:Totally. Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah.I thought a lot about our project that we mentioned last week on the podcast about working together with Kevin on, I had spent a fair amount of time thinking about that. And that's one of the things that you can do on those long walks, it can still be working.Josh:Thinking.Ben:Thinking.Josh:Yeah, thinking is totally work.Ben:Thinking is totally work, so I did a lot of thinking this week, and responding to urgent stuff, but also, nearly, nearly done on the compliance thing. I think I have 11 out of 150 evidence requests left to complete. So-Josh:Wow.Ben:... yeah, it's almost there. Next week, I'll be actually talking to the auditors and-Josh:Awesome.Ben:Yeah. It's almost done. That's nice.Josh:And you've got ideas for making it easier next year.Ben:Yep. Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:So, yeah, just plugging away.Josh:So I guess we're cruising.Ben:Yeah, no worries. Well, I guess we can wrap it.Josh:Yeah, wrap it.Ben:They're getting a good one. This has been FounderQuest. We're still coming at you mostly every week, and we really enjoy it. And if you enjoy it, hope you give us a review at iTunes or wherever you can review podcasts, because I never do that, so I have no idea. But if you're into that, please do, and, yeah, check out Honeybadger, of course, because we love having more customers. And I guess we'll see y'all next time.Josh:Catch you later.

Punk Rock Reflection 27 - Gabbi and Josh: What to Keep and What to Leave Behind On this Punk Rock Reflection, Josh enlists the help of his amazing principal wife, Gabbi! After the last year and a half of being pandemic educators, they reflect on what things from the last school year that they want to leave behind and what things they want to keep and carry with them into the next school year. So, make your list because were packing a bag and putting 2020-2021 behind us...except the stuff we wanna keep. Intro/Outro music - "A Walk" by Bad Religion Find us at: www.punkrockclassrooms.com www.teachbetter.com/podcasts/punk-rock-classrooms Twitter twitter.com/punkclassrooms twitter.com/mikerearnshaw twitter.com/JoshRBuckley Check out our PRC Playlist here for all of the rad tunes we use: bit.ly/PRCPlaylist

Show notes:Links:TwistHook RelayBen Orenstein TupleWrite for HoneybadgerFull transcript:Starr:So Ben is joining us today from his car. It's bringing back fun memories. I recorded, I think the voiceover for our very first demo video in my car.Ben:Oh yeah? Nice. So as you may recall, I have a two story building that I lease one of the rooms, and the downstairs is a wine tasting room. Well with the pandemic, the company that had the wine tasting room, they closed shop. They stopped leasing, because who's going to go to a wine tasting room during a pandemic, right? Well they're leasing the space to a new tenant that's going to take that space. Apparently hey, we're getting back, things are reopening, let's taste wine again, but the new tenant wants to have a new door put in. So I got to the office today and they're like, "Yeah, we're putting in a new door." And then I'm like, "Cool." Didn't even think much of it. But then a few minutes later, there's all this drilling going on. I'm like, "Oh, I think probably the car is a better place to record today."Josh:Well at least you'll have some new friends soon.Ben:True, true.Starr:Yeah. Well I'm glad you made it, at least. And so what's up? I missed a week of the podcast and you guys invested our entire Honeybadger savings account into Bitcoin.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And I'm not sure that was the most prudent investment decision, y'all. I just wanted to say that.Ben:Yeah, the timing could have been better.Josh:Yeah, we really pulled a Roam Research on that one.Starr:Oh yeah. What do you mean by that?Josh:They invest in Bitcoin, apparently.Starr:Oh, they do? Okay.Ben:Of course they do.Starr:Of course. It's just a dip. You're supposed to buy the dips, Josh. It's just what, like a 30% dip? 40% dip?Josh:I wasn't watching it, but I read that it had recovered pretty quickly too.Starr:Oh. I have no idea. I didn't even follow it.Josh:As it does.Starr:I don't even follow it.Josh:Yeah. I just read random people's opinions.Starr:There you go.Josh:I forget where we left it last week, but I just wanted to state for record that I think I mentioned I made some accidental money in Bitcoin back when I was learning about block chain technology, but I have not bought any Bitcoin since, nor do I intend to, and I do not really view it as an investment asset.Starr:This is not investment advice.Josh:I just need to state my opinions for the future so I can look back on them with regret. If I don't say what I actually think, I'm never going to have anything to regret.Starr:There you go.Josh:I'm just going to commit.Starr:So you've decided to die on this no intrinsic value hill.Josh:Right. I'll let you know if I change my mind.Starr:Okay, that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, I don't really check. Last week y'all did the interview with Mike, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah, it was a good conversation.Starr:Yeah. I don't really pay attention to it, except occasionally I'll look at the chart. It's the same with GameStop. Occasionally I'll look at the GameStop chart and then just see what wild stuff people are saying about it. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, GameStop was hovering at about 150 for a while, but now it's up to like 170-ish, 180. Something like that. Yeah. I peek at it every now... it's on my watch list when I log into my brokerage account, so I just see it. I'm like, "Oh, okay. Cool." And then I move on and check out my real actual stock portfolio.Starr:Oh yeah, yeah. I'm not going to buy it. It's like a TV show for me.Ben:Yeah, totally.Josh:Yeah. To be fair, I really don't have much of an opinion either way. I still don't understand it, so I don't know. I just feel like I probably shouldn't be buying it.Starr:That's really good advice. I don't understand anything though, so what am I supposed to do, Josh? Huh? Huh?Josh:Yeah.Ben:Just buy the index fund.Starr:Yeah. I don't even understand that.Josh:I don't understand that either though, if you really think about it.Ben:That's actually, there was a good thread or so on Twitter. I don't know if it was this week or last week, but basically the idea was if you feel really confident in your own ability, in your own business, given that, you're probably spending most of your time in that business, right? We spend most of our creative time in Honeybadger because that's where we feel the most potential is. So you're investing basically all of your personal capital in this one business. How do you diversify that risk? Or do you diversify the risk? Do you double down? Maybe do you take investment to diversify, and so you buy out? Let someone do a secondary and so you take some cash off the table? If you did that, then where would you put the money? Do you just go, "Okay, I'm going to go buy Bitcoin. I'm going to go buy an index fund," or whatever. And if you do that, is that a better use of your money than having just kept the equity and just plowing more time into your business? Right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's an interesting thought exercise. It's like, "Hm." The whole investment mindset of your business is interesting to me.Josh:Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. I think I saw that conversation, or maybe I saw a similar conversation where they were talking about even just 401Ks and for founders who are already fairly... have at least made it in whatever sense that means. Is it the best financial move to keep maxing out your 401K versus investing in your ability to generate revenue in your business?Starr:So a little bit of real talk here. If you are a founder who's made it, maxing out your 401K isn't really a blip on your financial radar.Josh:It's not a big... yeah. That was kind of the same thought I had. It's not like you're putting 50% of your income into it.Starr:Yeah. What is it, like 20 grand? Something like that?Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's a good chunk of change, but still. It's not like...Josh:Yeah. I don't know.Starr:Yeah, that's interesting. I think I'm just going to go all in on Pogs. I think they're due for a comeback. I think that's going to be how I diversify.Josh:But I think it's probably a good move to invest in yourself if you have the ability to build businesses. That definitely seems like a good investment, in any case. Probably still have a 401K. I tend to do everything, except Bitcoin.Ben:A 401K is a nice backstop. Just keep stocking money away, and later it will be there, hopefully. But in the meantime, really, really spend your time and your energy on making your business even more profitable. Speaking of making your business more profitable, so this past week or two weeks, I've been working on our SOC 2 type two audit, so I'm doing the evidence collection.Starr:Oh yeah?Ben:So that in this case means I take a bunch of screenshots of settings, like the AWS console and G-suite console to show yeah, we have users, and yes, we have login restrictions, et cetera. All the 150 different things that you're supposed to check off the list when you do the audit. And as I've been going through this process taking all these screenshots, honestly it's getting a bit tedious, and it's surprisingly time consuming. And so I'm like, "You know, there are services for this sort of thing. Let me check them out." And so in the past three days, I've had conversations with Vanta, Secureframe, and Drata. These are three providers that what they do is they provide almost SOC 2 in a box. Basically they help you connect all of your systems and get the evidence that you need for an auditor in a more automated fashion. So for example, they'll plug into your AWS account and they'll pull out information about your security groups, your application firewall, your AIM, all the access permissions, all that kind of stuff, and pack that up into a nice little format that the auditor can then look at and like, "Yeah, they're good on all these different requirements." So you don't have to take screenshots of security groups.Ben:And I hadn't really looked at them before because I was like, "I don't know if I just want to spend that kind of money," but actually sitting back and looking at it, looking at the time that I'm spending on this and the amount of time I'm paying our auditors to audit all these screenshots that I'm taking, actually I think it would be cheaper to go with one of these services, because your audit is a bit more streamlined because the auditor knows how that data is going to come in and it's an easy format to digest, et cetera. But the thing is that after having gone through some of the sales pitches from these vendors, I'm thinking I really wish I would have started with these back the first time, because I think it would have been much easier just from the get go. So I think I've been doing the SOC compliance on hard mode, unfortunately, but lessons learned.Starr:With my experience, that just seems to be how projects are. You do it one time and you don't really know what you're doing, and you just push your way through it, and then eventually you figure out how to do it better and easier and all that. Because when something is new to you, you don't know what you can safely ignore. You know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Well plus you're pumping up the value of FounderQuest.Starr:Oh, that's true. We got a lot of content out of that.Ben:That's true.Starr:At least $100 worth.Josh:That's useful knowledge. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, so I think the short version is if you are interested in doing SOC2 compliance and you have no idea what you're doing, talk to these vendors first and maybe just start with them. They will help you, because they have customer success people like SaaS does. They have people on staff who are there to help you have success with their product. And if you don't get compliant, then you're going to stop using their product, so they're going to help you try and get there. And it's still pricey. It's still going to be five figures a year, but it will definitely save you some time and maybe even save you some money.Josh:Nice.Ben:Yeah. So next year, our audit should just be smooth as silk.Starr:Just butter.Josh:Love it.Starr:So if we-Josh:What are you going to do with all that extra free time?Ben:I made an executive decision.Starr:Oh really? What's that?Ben:Yes. The executive decision is we're going to have more teamwork at Honeybadger.Starr:That's ironic.Josh:Instead of what? What we have now, which is anarchy?Ben:We pretty much do have anarchy, I think. We are coordinated, we do make our plans, and we do have things we want to get done, but yeah, we are very independent at Honeybadger. We work independently. You might even say we're kind of siloed. We go off in the corner and do our own thing for most of the time. And I was chatting with Kevin about this, and I think we're going to try an experiment. So I think we're going to try to actually work together.Starr:Kevin is our developer.Starr:Yeah, so you all are going to be developing features together. Are you going to pair program? Are you going to use Tuple?Ben:Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there.Starr:Are you going to mob program?Ben:Pair programming, that's maybe too advanced for us, I think. Maybe actually we'll chat in Slack a little bit here and there and maybe have a Zoom call.Josh:Yeah, so you're talking about you're both going to work on the same project at the same time.Ben:Right. Right.Josh:Mostly independently, but coordinating.Ben:Right. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think that still can fit into our anarchy model.Starr:Yeah. It still seems a little bit independent.Josh:It's more like mutual aid or something.Starr:There you go. We should make a conference talk about mutual aid development.Josh:Right.Starr:That would go over well.Ben:Using NATO as a model for your development process. Yeah, so we'll see how it goes. I'm looking forward to it. I think I've been feeling a little lonely. I don't know if it's the right word, but maybe just off doing my own thing. I was like, "Oh, I think it will be nice to have some collaboration, some coordination." Maybe we'll even get to a level of synergies.Starr:Synergies.Starr:That's a blast from the past.Josh:Yeah, I think it's a good idea.Ben:Yeah, so more to come on that. We'll keep you posted. It's a bigger project. May not have results for a couple months. Don't really want to spill the beans on what it is right now. Competitive information. Don't want to leak it to all of our competitors.Starr:I like that. I like that. It's going to keep people on the hook for the next episodes.Josh:Totally.Ben:But yeah. That was my week.Josh:Yeah. Well my week, I took some time off, had some family stuff going on, so I was not very productive this week, but what I did work on was I've been working on this little guide for Hook Relay. I'd love to get the marketing machine, the fly wheel going on that at least, so we can be moving that along with everything else. And so yeah, working on some content and such.Starr:What is Hook Relay?Josh:Well you tell us what Hook Relay is, Ben. It's your baby.Ben:It's my baby. Yeah. So Hook Relay is a tool for managing web hooks. So you can record web hooks as they go out. In our case, to Honeybadger, we send a lot of web hooks, and so we built Hook Relay to help track all that web hook action. So we logged as pay loads that can go and diagnose issues that are happening, or maybe replay them as necessary, and of course it also handles inbound web hooks. So if you were handling, let's say, a post pay load request from GitHub about some activity that happens in your GitHub account, you handle that web hook and we can give you a place to store that, and then you can replay that, send it, forward it onto somewhere if you want, or just store it.Josh:Yeah. I think one of my favorite things about Hook Relay is just the visibility that it gives us into what's happening with the hooks, because otherwise we never had a dashboard. I guess we could have built one internally to see what the activity was and what's failing, what's actually... what requests are... because you're connecting to thousands of different people's random domain URLs, basically. It's really nice even for debugging and things like troubleshooting to be able to see what's going on, in addition to all the other cool things that it gives you out of the box.Starr:So you might say it's even like turnkey reliability and visibility for web hooks. For all your web hook needs.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, we modeled it on Stripes web hooks because we loved-Starr:I'm holding up a box up. I'm holding the TurboLinks box up and gesturing at it with my hand.Ben:Vanna White style.Josh:We should do our own channel, do our own infomercials.Ben:Yeah, I really wanted experience of Stripe. If you set up web hooks in Stripe, you can go and you can see all the web hooks they've sent you. You can see the pay loads, you can see whether they were successfully delivered or not, and I wanted that experience for our own web hooks, and also I thought it would be cool if developers could just have that without having to build the infrastructure. And so if you're building an app that send a bunch of web hooks on behalf of your customers, well now you can give your customers visibility into that web hook activity without having to build that tracking yourself.Josh:Yeah. That's pretty cool. So basically this content guide I'm working on is how to build web hooks into your application, including all the reliability and stuff that Hook Relay gives you for free. And the idea is that if that's what you're doing and you just want to save some time, Hook Relay will be a large chunk of that. You've just got to sign up. So I think it will be useful to everyone, even if they don't become a customer. If you're going to build your own back end and handle all the retries, build dashboards, and all that. But if you want it all turnkey, then Hook Relay is a big chunk of that work just done of you.Starr:So is this live? So can people go and sign up now?Ben:Yeah.Josh:Hook Relay, yes. It is.Josh:Hookrelay.dev.Ben:Yeah. In fact, we have enough customers now that it's actually paying for itself.Starr:What?Ben:Yes. So sweet.Josh:It's wild. That's wild.Starr:That's amazing.Ben:So Josh, is your guide going to have... are you going to dive deep into the architecture of here's how you build a whole web hook system, and so we're going to show you all the stuff behind the curtain so you can build your own? And then, "Oh, by the way, if you want it just done for you, here it is." Or are you going to just keep it more high level?Josh:I'm starting more high level. Yeah, I was planning on it being more high level. More like a high level architecture thing, or specification. Like these are the parts that you'll need to build, but you're going to have to solve some things, because it's not going to be specific to one system. It's not going to be like, "This is how you build web hooks for Ruby and Sidekick, or if you're going serverless." It will have suggestions on stacks or technologies to use for the back end, for instance, but yeah. I was thinking of leaving that to the user to figure out, but just showing the things you need to think about that a lot of people don't think about until they encounter the problems that might arise, like retrying and all the error handling that you add later, and validation for security reasons and things.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Starr:This is giving me flashbacks to a whole two or three year process after we first launched.Josh:Yeah.Starr:It was just like, "Oh, crap. There's an edge case here that we didn't think of because we're not used to doing web hooks at this scale." And that just went on for like three years.Josh:Yeah. And it's nice having the two products because Hook Relay came out of Honeybadger and it's basically part of our web hook system. This is basically just documenting Honeybadger's web hook system for other people who might want to replicate that or whatever.Ben:Totally. I think that will be cool. A great piece of content, a great piece of SEO juice. And if you did decide to go deep into the technical side, like if you explain the entire infrastructure that we're building, that would actually be kind of cool too because you could maintain your technical documentation for the system internally and use it as a piece of content for marketing.Josh:That could be cool. Yeah. That's not a bad idea. Yeah, I was thinking just because I want to get something out there. I'm thinking it will help with both, having a resource for people who are already on the site to see this is basically how you will implement this. It's kind of like an implementation guide, really. But then also SEO. It should help get us in more search results.Ben:Yeah.Josh:And I also want to credit Ben Orenstein and and Tuple. They have a great pair programming guide which was an inspiration for this idea. I just really liked the format that they used, and I just think it's a great idea if you have a product that's highly targeted or focused on one specific thing and doing it really well. I think it's maybe even a great alternative to a blog, for instance. You can get some of the same benefits of having a blog, but without actually having to create a blog with a lot of different variety of topics and things.Ben:Speaking of the blog, I was talking to Harris, our sales guru, about our blog strategy, and I said, "Yeah, it's basically like a flypaper strategy. We want it to attract developers that come and see the content and they love it and they're like, 'Oh, let me check out this Honeybadger thing.'" Not particularly novel, but I like the flypaper idea.Starr:That's a good metaphor. And also for a long time, I poo-pooed SEO because in my mind, SEO was very scammy. I don't know. I learned about SEO in the days of link farming and all that, and I just didn't want to be involved in that. So I'm just like, "We're just going to put out good content and that will be enough." And it is, yes, but also I've looked at some metrics since then that make it clear that the majority of good things that happen because of our blog actually are people entering through search queries. That really outweighs people sharing articles and doing stuff like that, which I guess is obvious that it would be that way, but my own bias against search just made me not see that for a while. So maybe trying to pick some possible low hanging fruit. We've tried to make our site search engine friendly, but we having really done any explicit SEO type activities.Josh:Yeah. I went through recently through our documentation and just tweaked just small things on a bunch of pages, like headlines and some of the meta tags and stuff, but mostly headlines and content on page was what I was focusing on. And I wasn't using any particular tool to measure before and after results, but it does seem like it bumped us up in some of the results for people searching for more general terms like Ruby error tracking, for example, which are typically pretty competitive terms. But I think we rank pretty well for some of those terms these days. I think we've been around enough and we're one of the options that come up. So it does seem like if you already target the terms, it actually does what they say it does, which is good to know. You've just got to pay attention to it.Ben:So the moral of story is there is some value in SEO.Starr:I guess so.Josh:Yeah. Well and I think documentation sites. Your documentation, I think it's a great place to optimize SEO because a lot of times, especially for those... maybe not for the long tail searches. A blog is great for that, like what you were talking about with the flypaper, Ben. But for people who are actually searching for what you do, I think a lot of times documentation pops up first in a lot of cases when I'm searching for things, so don't overlook it like we did.Starr:Yeah. Well this week, I guess the main thing I did was I got our authors lined up for the next quarter of intelligence briefings. So if you haven't been playing along at home, we're having some intelligence briefings created. Basically everything that's going on in a certain language community for the quarter, and this grew out of Josh's need because he's basically in charge of our client libraries. And we have libraries in a variety of languages, so keeping up with those languages and what's going on is a real pain in the ass, so we were going to make these guides originally for him, but then also we were like, "This would be really great content to publish."Starr:And I've already got this system with authors who want to write about programming languages, and so let's see if we can make some authors make these summaries. And so far, yeah, I'm pretty happy. We had four or five of them created, and we're not publishing them because they were for a previous quarter, and this is just a trial run to see if the results are okay, and I think they were. I think the results were pretty good. We go some feedback from you two, and I updated my process and updated the template that all the authors are using, and so we should be getting round two done. I'm setting the deadline a week after the end of the quarter. My hope is if they get them to me then, then I'll have a week to get them up on our blog or wherever, and then they won't be too out of date by the time people see them.Josh:Yeah. That's cool. I'm excited to see the next batch. My favorite thing from the reports were the ones where they wrote some original content summarizing things or sections or whatever. That was super useful because there's a little bit of a story element to it that's specific to the quarter or whatever that you don't really get from just... if you just aggregate everything, all the weekly newsletters and what happened on Reddit and what happened on Twitter. If you just dump that all in a document, it's a bit of overload, so it's nice to have the summary the story of what the community was interested in.Starr:Oh yeah. Definitely.Josh:Here are some articles that they talked about.Starr:That's the whole idea, is to have somebody who knows the community explain to you what's going on, as opposed to... if I wanted a bunch of links, I could just write a little script to scrape links from places.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And it wouldn't be very useful. What's useful is having people who know the environment being like, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is why it's important." And yeah, so that's going to be something I guess I need to look for explicitly when I get this round of things of reports back.Josh:Start calling them secret agents or something instead of authors.Starr:Oh yeah.Josh:Or detectives.Starr:Operatives. Yeah. Assets.Josh:As our detective service investigators.Ben:I think having that analysis of why this news is important or why these things are important that they've collected is really handy, because the links are great. Like you said, I could just write a script to collect them, but having someone with that context in the community saying, "Okay, and it's important because, and this is why you should pay attention," I think that's really helpful to someone who's maybe not as deep into that every day.Starr:Oh yeah.Josh:Yeah. And also knowing what to surface, because there was one report that it really seemed to just dump every single link or article that was discussed or was in a newsletter or whatever, and I think it's more helpful if it's on a quarterly level, if you know what is actually the important things that you really want to know about.Starr:Yeah, that's true. I just made a note for myself to go back and explicitly just mention that to people, because I realized I didn't put it in the instructions anywhere. I put like, "Here's where a description of the content goes," but I didn't really put what I want inside that description, I realized.Josh:Yeah.Starr:So I'm going to do that.Ben:We're iterating in real time here.Starr:Oh yeah, yeah. This is where the work gets done.Josh:Yeah. Well and pretty soon, we'll have hopefully some good examples that we can show future authors, or detectives, or whatever we're calling them.Starr:Oh, definitely. Definitely. I'm going to call them authors because they're already in the blog system as authors and it just seems like-Josh:Agents?Starr:I don't know. I've got to be able to talk to these people with a straight face.Ben:You could call them research specialists, but then you might have to pay them more.Starr:There you go.Josh:Research. Yeah. Yeah.Starr:I don't know. I think I'm paying pretty well. Honestly, I think I'm paying pretty well for looking at... I don't know. How many weeks is a quarter? 12? 12 weeks of newsletters and just telling me what's going on. I think I'm paying pretty well.Josh:Yeah. You don't need to talk to them with a straight face though. You need to talk to them with sunglasses on, smoking a cigarette in a diner.Starr:Oh that's right. Yeah.Josh:Or a dive bar somewhere.Starr:Those people aren't smiling. Those people aren't smiling. Oh, that's right. I can do that. I just realized that it's two weeks since my second vaccine, so I'm ready to go out and recruit secret agents.Josh:Ready to party.Starr:Yeah. I'm very anxious talking with people in public now, but that's not a topic for this conversation.Josh:Yeah. We'll ease back into it.Starr:Oh yeah. Yeah, we're going to have dinner with my sister in law on Saturday, and I'm just like, "Okay Starr, you can do this. You can do this."Josh:Cool.Starr:Yeah, and I guess the other thing that we did this week is we are doing a trial run of Twist as a replacement for Basecamp messages, the message board on Basecamp. And yeah, so basically the long and short of it is the whole Basecamp BS just left a bad taste in my mouth in particular. I think you all's a little bit, or maybe you're neutral. I don't care. That sounded really harsh.Ben:You can be honest with us. We can take it.Starr:No, I didn't mean to sound that harsh. I just mean I'm not trying to put my opinions onto you, is what I'm saying. I just felt gross using Basecamp. Also if I'm being honest, I never really enjoyed Basecamp as a product. It's got a couple things that just really rubbed me the wrong way.Josh:We were having some vague conversations in the past. We have posed do we really want to keep this part of what we're using Basecamp for? And we were already using a subset of it, so yeah. It wasn't totally out of the blue.Starr:Yeah. And we were using maybe 20% of Basecamp, just the message boards feature.Josh:And the check ins, which apparently we all disliked.Starr:And the check ins, which nobody liked but we all kept using for some reason. Ben is like, "Can I turn off the check ins?" And I'm like, "I thought you were the only reason we were doing the check ins, it's because I thought you liked them."Ben:I think I was the only reason we were doing the check ins.Josh:It's because... yeah.Ben:Yeah, because I remember when I started it I was like, "Yeah, I really don't know what's going on," because back to that siloed, independent, off in the corner thing, I was like, "It would be nice to know what people are doing." But yeah, lately I've been like, "This is just a drag." So I'm like, "Would anybody be upset if this went away?" And everyone is like, "Please take it away."Josh:Everyone is just passively aggressively answering them.Ben:Everyone hated it.Josh:It wasn't that bad, but-Ben:I get it.Josh:Kevin used them too, but yeah.Ben:So I finally gave everyone permission to tell me that it was not okay, and now we no longer do it.Starr:There you go. And we're just like, "While we're at it, just ditch Basecamp." So yeah, so we've been trying a new system called Twist. Twist is, essential it's... I don't know, it's like threaded discussions. I figured this out on my own. I'm very proud of myself. So you have lots of threads, and you twist them together to make yarn or something or some sort of textile, so I bet you that's why it's called Twist.Josh:Beautiful sweater.Starr:Yeah. A beautiful sweater. The tapestry that is Honeybadger. And so far, I've really been enjoying it. I find the UI to be a lot better. There was one bug that we found that I reported, so hopefully that will get fixed. It doesn't really bother me that much. Yeah, it's amazing sometimes how the UI of an application can just be like, "Oh, ah. I'm having to parse less information just to do my task."Josh:It's much nicer.Starr:Yeah.Ben:It does feel like a lot less friction for our use case.Josh:Yeah. Well we talked about that, just the structure. The way that you structure conversation and organization things in a management tool like that makes a big difference. In Basecamp, we would create Basecamps for whatever. They call them Basecamps, right? They're the projects.Starr:They're like projects. I don't know.Josh:We'd create different ones, different projects for each project, but then there's five of us, so we'd basically just add everyone to every single project that is in there. But all the conversation is siloed off in each project, and with Twist, it's just much more of a fluid... it uses what, like channels? But yeah, it just seems like it's all together. It's kind of like a combination of Slack and a threaded message board or something, to me.Starr:Yeah, or like Slack and email or something.Josh:Slack and email. Yeah. It's a nice combo.Starr:Yeah. It has inbox, which I like, where it shows you any unread messages, and so you can just easily just go and scan through them, and it's all in the same page. It's a single page application, so you don't have to click out to a completely new page and then come back to the inbox and do all that. Basecamp had a similar feature, but it's like a timeline and it had a line down the middle of the screen and then branches coming off of either side of it. And for some reason, I started using the inbox in Twist and it was just like, "Oh, this is so much better." For some reason I think having things on different sides of the screen just doubled the amount of background processing my brain had to do to put it all together. And yeah, so I don't know. I do like it. Also, it's got mark down. It's got mark down.Josh:The mark down editor is so nice. It reminds me a lot of just using GitHub, the editor on GitHub, with the mark down mode and preview. And you can drag and drop images into the... I don't know if you knew that, into the mark down editor, like you can on GitHub, and it automatically inserts the image tag and uploads it for you.Starr:Yeah, it's all really slick. So I don't know. I imagine in maybe another... I've got vacation next week, so maybe after that we'll get together and compare notes. But I don't know, it seems like people like it so far.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, it's been good. It's interesting-Josh:If I had to decide today, it's a keeper for me.Ben:Yeah, I would go ahead and switch.Starr:Oh yeah, me too.Ben:It's interesting to me, you alluded to this, Starr, as you were talking about comparing it to your products and how they approach... it's interesting to me the UI, even if it's the same kind of functionality, how much different takes on the user experience can make a different experience for the user. How it just feels different. Like, "Oh yeah, it's basically doing the same thing, but it just feels better for whatever. My mentality or our business." Fill in the blank there, but I thought about that many times. Honeybadger versus competitors. It's like, "Yeah, they're doing basically the same thing, but we do have differences in how we approach the UI and different use patterns that we think are more emphasized by our UI versus the others." And sometimes it's just a matter of personal preference. It's like, "Oh, this just feels better to me." One night I tried Python before I tried Ruby, and Python is like, "Oh, that's interesting," but then Ruby really clicked my brain. It's like, "Oh, it just feels better." And I'm sure other people have the opposite experience, but I don't know. It's weird to me and fun to think about the human part of these products. Josh:Yeah. And it's surprising, the strong opinions that people pick up just based on those experience things when they're basically the same, if they're doing the same thing. Some people, they either love it or hate it based on that.Starr:Yeah, that's true. Maybe it all goes back to whatever business apps you used in childhood. It's just whatever your mom made you for lunch, you're always going to love that.Josh:Yeah. It's like a nurture thing, nature versus nurture. You were exposed to these apps when you were young, and so it's just what you're drawn to.Starr:Yeah. I remember putting my little friend's contact details into Lotus Notes.Josh:Right. I had to program Lotus Notes.Ben:I got my first dev job because I knew Lotus Notes.Starr:Oh, nice.Josh:Lotus Notes was an important precedent at the time, I think.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. It was the bomb. You could do some pretty serious stuff.Starr:Yeah. I kept having these jobs that weren't technically dev jobs, but ended up being dev jobs just because I knew how to write V basic macros for Excel. I'm sure a lot of people had that experience.Josh:The thing I remember doing in Lotus Notes was setting it up to ingest email from the outside world into whatever, the system. And thinking about it now, that project I've done over and over and over since then.Starr:It's Basecamp.Josh:And I'm still doing that project.Starr:It's Basecamp all over again. Oh no.Ben:If only there was a service that took in emails for you, and then you could just bring them into your app data.Josh:Yeah. I bet in 20 years, we'll be writing programs to accept email.Ben:Process emails, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah. When is this stuff going away? Technology changes all the time. When is email going away? They've been killing it for years. It's like fricking Rasputin. When is it going away?Ben:It's the cockroach of protocols.Starr:There you go.Josh:After the singularity, they'll still have to have a way to import it directly into your consciousness, and yeah, I don't know.Starr:Yeah. I hope the spam filtering is really good then.Starr:All right, well it was great talking with y'all.Ben:Likewise.Starr:Yeah. So this has been FounderQuest. Go to the Apple podcast and review us if you want. If you're interested in writing for us, we are always looking for fresh, new talent. Young authors looking to make their mark on the world of technical blog posts for SAS companies. And yeah, just go to our blog and look for the write for us page. I don't currently have any openings, but who knows? People flake out. So if you're interested in writing these reports for us too, get in touch. These quarterly intelligence briefings, if you want to be an agent for our intelligence service. All right, so I'll see y'all later.

Welcome to the second part of a special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh talk about their biggest “take-aways” from the book. Russell talks about a difficult time when Clickfunnels was down and instead of choosing fear and running from the problem, he chose to have faith in his business and fight to make it better. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed the first part of my interview with Josh Forti, on Outwitting the Devil. This episode, I'm excited, because we're going to go a little bit deeper. We're going to start talking about some of my stories, and practical applications of how I was able to use this in my past. This story I tell, I wasn't expecting to tell this. I didn't know where he was going to go with the interview questions. We got a little emotional, but I think it was good. So I'm excited to share it with you. I'm a little nervous, but a little excited at the same time. So with that said, we're going to cue up the theme song. When we come back you can listen to episode number two, from the Josh Forti interview, about Outwitting the Devil. Josh Forti: I had a very definitive takeaway from the book. You could read a million times, and keep getting gold nuggets, but what was the thing that stuck out to you, that was the most powerful of it? That caused you to literally go on Instagram, be like, "Yo, everybody read this book right now." Russell: Everyone's in different spots, so I think it's good to read this book for everyone to kind of see where you fit. Anyway, maybe I have a distorted view of myself, but I feel like I'm somebody who acts in definitive purpose. I feel like I act in faith, most of the times. So, I feel like I'm on the side. So the thing that was so powerful for me, if you look in the middle of my thing, there's two columns here, was he started saying, he asked, he's like, "When someone uses definitive purpose, does that mean they're free from you?" He's like, "No." He's like, "As soon as they're using definitive purpose." And he's like, "These are the tools I use to try to get them to become drifters." And I started looking at the list of things he uses to get them to become drifters. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I see those patterns in my life. I see the things that are pulling me to that side as well." And it became this warning for me of like, "Okay, these are the things to protect yourself from." Because, we're not free, it's not like, I do good things therefore I'm to be good forever. It's like, no, the entire time he's trying to get you to the other side. And so for me, it was interesting. You can see some of these ones I list up here, like the temptations he uses to get someone who is free, to become a drifter. So number one, was flattery. And it was interesting, he said that the way he uses flattery, is in women, he uses vanity, and in men, he uses egotism. And I've seen that so many times in my own personal life, where with your ego and you start reading your own bio, you drink your own Kool-Aid, and you're like, "I'm amazing." And as soon as you do that, it starts shifting you from this state of freedom, to drifters. And I've seen... I've got personal friends who have let ego destroy their families, destroy their businesses, destroy their lives. And I always have fear of that, and I see myself slipping into that often. It's definitely a temptation, it's one of the things for me, that pulls me in, I'm trying to be careful of. It's funny, people always tell me, like, "I feel like you're one of the few guys in the industry that doesn't have a big ego." I'm like, "I have a huge ego." I try to be aware of it. I'm grateful for my wife. One of my buddies told me, he's like, "It wasn't for Colette." He's like, "You'd have the biggest head in the world." She's the one that keeps me focused. Josh: I feel like that's Leo with me too, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Russell: But I think it was interesting for man, for egotism, and women, he said vanity, which is interesting too. So those are two things there. Next was failure, and he talked about failure from both sides. He said that failure can be something that actually serves you, because you fail, you see what's wrong and you read adjust, but some people go through failure, and then they slip to like, "Okay, this didn't work," and they're out. And you see that a lot. Josh: Well, and that's even here, it's learning from adversity. That's one of the key things, how do you use failure? If you're going to be a drifter, you're going to be like, "Failure. Ew yuck. I'm never going to do it again." versus a successful person. Russell: You see people all the time that fail, are like, "Oh, I tried the thing, and it didn't actually work." It's like, "Okay. It worked for 800 other people, but it didn't work for you. Maybe it was you, maybe the approach was..." It's so interesting where it's like, if... It comes back to, if you've read Jocko's book. Josh: What's Jocko's book? Extreme Ownership. Yeah. Russell: That's the thing, the failure happens, and it's like, "Oh, I going to blame it on them." Boom. Instantly you're a drifter. But if you're like, "It was me, I did it wrong. What am I going to change?" The extreme ownership, that's the shift from failure. Whereas you take extreme ownership, boom, you're staying over here, but, if you don't... And I have a problem all the time. I think something that's happened to my team, or whatever, and I want to point the finger, and it's like, "But I'm the leader of the team." But it's so much easier to point out, than point back in. And so for me, that was the one. Again, another one I noticed, when I had my failures, did I point out or in? Because if I point out, I'm slipping into drifting. Propaganda, bribes, food, sex, all these different things he was using. The food one was interesting, he was talking about, he's like, "When men and women become rich, and they have all these things, I get them through food, when they start eating and get gluttonous. And all of sudden their body gets not healthy, and then it's harder to move." And I'm sure you felt that, when you're not eating healthy, your mind gets cloudy, and all these things, it's very easy to become a drifter. And so, it's just all these tools he's using to try to get you to shift from one another. Those things were... In my time in my life right now, where I was just like, "Okay, cool. I've got walls, I can start protecting myself up. I can become more aware of it." When you're aware of something, it's so much easier to fight it, as opposed to when… Josh: Yeah. And when you're successful too, everything's convenient. And that's one of the things that he brought up in the book too. I noticed in my life, I was thinking back to when I first started, I was like, "Man, I was sleeping on my buddy's couch." For three months, and I worked my butt off, and everything like that. I'm like, "Why do I lack that drive sometimes?" Like, "Why don't I have that anymore?" It's like, "Because life is convenient." Because if I sleep until eight o'clock, or if I don't perform today, my life doesn't change at all. But back then, it did. And so when things become convenient, it's super easy to come back into that drifter mode. Russell: Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's one of the hardest thing. I think, at least for me, when I was growing up, I always thought there's a point where you made it. In fact, I remember this one time, my business was doing well at the time, we had a bunch of employees. I remember hiring this guy to come consult me on something, and he came out, and he's looking at all this stuff. And he's like, "So tell me, when was he felt like... When did you know you made it?" And I was like, "Oh, I..." I'm still freaking out. I don't feel like I made it. And I think, in my life, I always thought there's going to be a point where I'm like, "I made it, or figured the thing out." Or whatever, but I never got there. I feel like the second I do, that's when it's going to start... That's the thing. And so, I think being more aware of that, just like, this is a constant thing and that's okay, but, it's a constant between God and Satan, there's this constant... Every moment is like, each of them are fighting for. It's like, if you give up here, then you slip back over to there. You can't just... There's no neutral ground. Josh: So, I just want to talk about that, because I think one of the biggest... Well, the number one thing, like you said, of a non drifter, is the definitive purpose. And I have noticed that in my life, even recently... Over the past year, year and a half, I've been working with Katie Richardson, you know that, just really getting clear on what the next steps of things are. And my definitive purpose, if you will, when I first started my entrepreneurship journey, was this, "I just don't want to be poor anymore." I go like, "My definitive purpose is to not worry about money, and to get out of debt, and just be free. Then be able to make decisions or whatever." And then I got there, and then there was this next definitive purpose. And they were incremental, almost goals, but not like this overwhelming definitive purpose. And so, going through the process of that, of course, with my brother dying, and that whole shattering of everything. Like for you, you've built ClickFunnels, you have a wildly successful company and people look up to you, and are like, "Oh my gosh, Russell, you're on top of the world. You're amazing. You've made it." At now, you've just said, "Hey, I don't feel like I've made it yet. I still feel like I have a long way to go." How do you... A, has your purpose changed since you started, compared to where you're at now? And B, how do you continue to remind yourself of that purpose? Or how do you find that purpose? When you could do nothing for the rest of your life, and be totally fine. How do you find purpose in that? Russell: I'd be a drifter at that point. Josh: Right, you wouldn't be a drifter. I can just see Russell sitting on the beach. No, actually, I can't even imagine what that would look like, for Russell on the beach for long periods of time. But, what would that look like for you? Or, how do you find that purpose? Russell: So, you asked about if my purpose has changed. So I would say, in my mind, it's two things. There's the people that I've been called to serve has not changed, I feel like I've been called to serve entrepreneurs. Those are my people, those are the people that I'm here... And so for me, it's like, what are all the ways I can help them? So, initially it was like, "Do seminars, write books." That was the first thing, and then it's like, "Oh, we're going to build software." And then it's like, "Oh, we're doing events." And, we kept adding these things on. And so, that was the thing. And so my purpose was like, what are all the things I can do to help an entrepreneur to be more successful? That's my vision. That's my mission. That's my thing. And I feel like now that, again, after I finished the three books, I was like, I feel like that, again, that the trilogy, that's what people need. And then we have Funnel Hacking Live, that's amazing. We have these things in place, all the things there are... they're there. And I think there's things, where there's big updates, we have to company click funnels. There're other things we do to make things better, but for me, it's like, there's not a lot more, again, it's not like I'm going to come out with some magic funnel, I'm like, "God, it changes everything again." Like, it's there. Right? So for me, it's like, "Okay, I'm still called to serve these people. What's the next level of success? What's the next thing I need to do?" And for me, I started looking, like what were the things that I struggled with? And so much of it was not... It was like, I didn't have the tools, I didn't have the information, which is why the last two decades has been focused on that. But, the next thing was like, I had to become someone different, who did I have to become to be successful? I look at so many entrepreneurs who are coming into my world, these people that I'm called to serve, and giving them funnels. Man, they don't believe in themselves, they have horrible identities. They're choosing fear over faith, every single time, and they're not having success. And so, for me, it's like, "Hey, I still have the same people." So-called same.. served the same people. But, what am I... What's the next thing I need to help them with? And if you just look at my book trilogy, the first one was dotcom secrets. It's like, "They need to understand funnels." That was the book. And it was like, "Hey, now I understand funnels." And now everyone's like, "I'm building funnels." But then their funnels weren't working, they weren't converting. And I'm like, "Oh, they don't know how to tell stories, right copy, or..." So, Expert Secrets, I'm like, "Expert Secrets." It's like, "Okay, now they understand that." And I thought I was done. And then I'm like, "Okay. Some people have these funnels that have really good copy, but Facebook shut down their account and they're screwed, or they have no traffic, or whatever." And I'm like, "Oh, my people in the traffic." So, I'm getting traffic, and that was Traffic Secrets book. And so for me, the last year, year and a half, especially, as you know, we've been in this insane environment of insanity… Josh: How do you even describe it? Russell: And I'm watching these people I've been called to serve, melting down, choosing fear in every single direction, over, and over, and over, and over again. I'm seen people who don't have an identity, they don't have beliefs, they don't have rules, they don't have values. And I have all these things they need to actually have the structure, to implement. It is what we talked about. And that's why I started geeking back to this personal moments, and partially because it's for myself, because I'm trying to protect myself and strengthen myself. But for me, Hill doesn't really go deep on anything. If you look at my disc profile, one of my things is I have very, very high... my highest value is ROI. If I don't see return on investment on something, I can't do. That's why I struggled in school, that's why I struggled with so many things. That's why when I started trying to read scriptures again, I struggled with it, until I started a podcast, because now there's return on my investment. I'm going to learn this thing, but I'm going to give it to somebody else. And there's my return on investment, now I can do it, and I feel fulfilled by it. Josh: Which by the way, I'm going to plug, podcast number three is going to be about that. Russell: And the same thing here. So, I started going back through, started reading these things. And for a while it was tough, because I'm reading these things, and for me it's like, what's the return on investment? It's good for me, but, ah, I've been called to serve. It's not just... Again, I talk about this in the new book, we'll talk about it a minute. But in Expert Secrets I talk about growth and contribution. I love growth, because good for me, but I thrive on the contribution. It's me sharing that gets me excited. So I was going through these things, and that's when, probably three or four months ago, is when I was like, "Hey, I'm learning all these principles, these things, I'm doodling all this stuff." I need to have something I'm putting it towards, or else I'm not going to be able to continue the momentum I need to keep doing this, and keep figuring out these things. And so, that's why I started, as you know, on my fourth book, which is not a marketing book. Josh: Yeah. I want to talk about that. Okay. I really do want to go there. However, there's one question I want to ask you first, I want to pull back another layer of Russell, that people... I don't know. Maybe, you've told this story before. I don't know. I don't even know what the story is, I'm about to ask you. So, my number one takeaway from the book, was how much fear controls people. That was my number one thing. And, for me, and this has come through a tremendous amount of mental work, and tremendous amount of personal identity work, over the course of the past 12 to 16 months, of just tears and just facing my own fears and insecurities, and bringing them to light and working through. But, there's not a whole lot of things I'm afraid of. There're very few things where I'm looking at them, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I just do me, and whatever. Like criticism, it doesn't really bother me, or whatever. But, there's certain instances that come up where I'm like, "Ooh, I'm afraid of failure in that specific scenario, for that specific thing." And I'd be curious to know, for you, as you built ClickFunnels, I'm sure there were moments of fear. And I'm sure there were moments, when this side of things started to creep in, but you worked through that. And so, I'd be curious to know, what was one of the biggest times when you were building ClickFunnels, that you were afraid? And how did you work through that? What's that story? Russell: Oh man. Josh: Because I feel like we hear the marketing version of it. Russell: The highlight reels. Josh: We do, right? And they serve a very specific purpose. And I always laugh when people want to criticize, like, "Russell only tells this part of the story, or whatever" I'm like, "Do you understand why he's doing that?" Like, "Do you understand it's fitting into... It's at Funnel Hacking Live, or it's at this, or whatever." I'm like, "There's a purpose for that." It's not like he's trying to do that, but I want to know the other side of it. I want to know the behind the scenes of, what was that moment where you're like, "This is not worth it. I'm going to shut it all down. Or I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able..." I don't know what the story is. Russell: Yeah, definitely for me, the part that was the hardest, it was the first year of ClickFunnels, we just launched it. And I remember, because when Todd built it he told me, he was like... And in my head, I thought we're going to get 10,000 members month one, that was in my head. And Todd was like, "Okay, well, just so you know, as soon it past 10,000 members, the way I coded it, it's going to have to be different." And I was like, "I don't know that means, but I'm going to get 10,000 members. Right?" So we go and launch it, we don't get 10,000 members, kind of depressed, but we started pursuing this thing, start working towards it. And within about a year we got 10,000 members. And during that time, ClickFunnels started doing weird things, where it would just go down for five minutes, and be back, like, "What just happened?" And like, "Oh, some blah, blah, blah, techie thing happened." And yeah, so they fixed it, like, "Hey, good." And then it goes down, this time it's down 15 minutes, and 15 minutes down.... It's funny, because one minute I'm everyone's hero, they're like, "We love you, Russell. You made our lives so much easier making money." I'm getting the messages, and just feeling the ego, and all the things they're just like... This is amazing. And then it goes down, and I want you to understand, when ClickFunnels would go down, it wasn't like, "Hey, man, it's down." It was like, "I want to kill you." Like, "You owe me $2,000 in ads for my 15 minute window that it's down." Like, "I'm going to sue you." Like death threats, I went from the hero of the day, to, "I want to kill you." And messages coming in are like... And I'm getting things, and Todd's not getting them, because no one knows... He's kind of behind the scenes, and I'm just like, you want to kill me? They're that angry? They want to sue me, they want all these things. And then, publicly posting everywhere, how horrible and how bad.... And the second someone slips, everyone wants to jump up and start throwing daggers at them, it's insane. I seen it happen to so many people. I have friends who I've seen it happen to recently, where it's like, everyone loves until they do something, and then it's just like everyone wants to pounce on- Josh: And half the time, it's not even their fault. Russell: It's crazy, if that's happening. And so, it's happening, we get back up, and then, "Is this is going to work good?" Like, "Yeah, fine." I'm like, "Okay. It's going to be good." So then we plan on that, and then again, it would go good for two, three weeks, then something happened, and it just kept happening. And the longer we go, more members happened, it would more often, it would happen longer. And, it was just horrible. Because I remember one time I was speaking at a Dan... GKC event. And I'm in the hotel room, we just got there, Dave and I were there, we're getting everything ready. And it goes down, we're down for like 30 minutes. I'm freaking out. I'm supposed to be on stage in 30 minutes, or like an hour or something, and it's down, and I messaging and I remember voxing Todd, I'm like, "Hey, it's down again." He messaged back all nice like, "Oh yeah." Like anyways, he was just like, he's like, "Oh yeah, it's down again. We'll work on it." So I messaged back, I was like, "This is happening a lot. Are you sure we're okay? You seem a little nice and calm, you okay?" It's funny, because Todd's super respectful, he doesn't ever swear around me or anything. And he messaged back, and I've never heard Todd scared before. And he messaged back, and he was... I won't repeat what he said, but it was just like, what he said and how he said it, was just like, we're screwed. He said it four or five times in a row, and then he ended. And I was just like- Josh: And you're about to go on stage? Russell: Yeah, and I was like… Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: And I was just freaking out. I'm like, "I'm about to go on stage, and try and convinced all this audience that I've got the greatest thing in the world. And my partner who built it, is freaking out, and doesn't know how to stabilize this thing. And he's..." I remember just being sick to my stomach, scared, all these fears, all the anxiety, all the inadequacy, all those things. And I remember I'm just freaking out, and then we got it back up, and then Dave's like, "Hey, you're on in like 10 minutes." I'm like, "Oh." So, I do my things, run downstairs and then come on stage. And I was just in my head, and my mind, and my body just freaking out. And, do the presentation, I know the presentation, even if I'm scared, it's going to come out pretty similar, it converted well, people bought it, everyone's excited. I remember afterwards, it was weird, this is one of those weird things, I don't even know who it was. If you're listening, she messaged me, some dude lingered afterwards and he's like, "Um, you okay?" I'm like, "Yeah. Fine. How's it going?" And he's like a chiropractor, but like a “woo-woo” one, were they do energy stuff. And he's like, "Can I adjust you?" And I'm like, "That's weird." He's like, "No, I don't really do normal adjusting, it's this other weird kind." And I was like, "I don't know what's happening. This guy is creeping me." But for some reason, like, "Sure. Whatever." So he takes me in this other room, he starts doing adjusting, he's doing the muscle testing, and all sorts of stuff on me, which I- Josh: Just some random dude? Russell: Yeah. I'd never had that happen before, he was attending the event, so he was there. Josh: Right. Russell: And it was weird, because he starts... He's just like, "You have all this tension here, here, all these things." And he's trying to figure out why. And so, eventually, and again, some people think that that's crazy. You think that's crazy? Nowadays, I don't know, Because- Josh: No. I don't think it's crazy. Russell: Anyway. It's interesting. But, he's doing this muscle testing, and he muscle tests, and he's like, "The thing that you're experiencing right now inside your body, is a reflection of something that happened." I can't remember, it was like 3.6 years ago, or something like that. He's like, "What happened three and a half ago?" "I have no idea." I couldn't remember. And all of a sudden I was like, "Oh my gosh, that was the last time my company collapsed." And we had to... We didn't go through bankruptcy, but had to fire almost a hundred people. We had to shut everything down. It was all this stuff. And he's like, "Your body's experiencing the same things right now, that you experienced at that moment. And that's this tension and these things." Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: It was crazy. And he did all this stuff to try to release it, and everything. But also I realized, it's like, oh my gosh. My biggest thing is, I built this thing up, people think I'm a hero again, right now. And I remember what happened three and a half years ago, when I lost everything and how much pain, and how much... All these things, the poverty I got, the criticism I got, the ill health I got, the loss of love I got, friends, family, coworkers walking out on me. I wanted to die. I'm over the edge. All my greatest fears came back in that moment, and I'm in this spot, and I don't know how to fix it, because I can't code. I go to college and learn how to code? I don't what to do. Josh: That's the worst, oh man. Russell: The next week… Josh: It's out of your hands. Russell: We're flying to London, to speak in London. They invited my family to come to me. So, my wife and kids were all flying in London, and I told parts of this story before, but we're in the air, everything's good. The kids are having so much fun, they're flying. And we land, we get to London, and there's... In your phones, the chips don't work, so you have to- Josh: Yeah. You got to swap them. Russell: So we're driving around, and finally get our chips in there, and as soon as it does, all of a sudden, my phone was just like... And I don't know what it is, so I'm looking, and there's text messages, there's instant messages, there's voxers, there's all these things, hundreds, I'm not exaggerating, people are like, "A hundred's, probably like 10." No, hundreds and hundreds on every platform, where people sending me death threats, sending me they want to kill me, send me the hate me, send me I'm screwing them over, sending me all that... just this stuff, and I'm looking at my phone, and I'm just like, "I don't even know what happen." So I'm finally trying to get Todd, I got ahold of him, and he's like, "Yeah, we're down. We've been down for four or five hours." He's like, "If we're able to get it back up." And all I remember him saying, if, and not when, and I was just like- Josh: And you're in London. Russell: With my family. Josh: About to speak. Russell: And so, I don't even know. I went back to the hotel room, and we had two hotels conjoining for the kids. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to go in this room for a minute." And I shut the door, and I'm just like, I don't know what to do. We're down. I don't know if we're getting it back up. So, to speak the next day to talk about click funnels. And it was one of the things where I was just in so much fear, I wanted to hide. I just wanted to not say anything. I just wanted to be quiet. Josh: Yeah. Especially as an introvert. Russell: Yeah. Especially and introvert who's got literally hundreds of people telling me how much they hate me. And, I don't know want to do. And this one of those moments where it's just like, the fear and the faith, I wanted to go to fear. That sounds so nice, just to hide and... But I was like, I can't, because this is my life. This is all this stuff we've worked for, for so long. And, in that moment I had impression of, you should go live on Facebook. I'm like, "I don't want to live on Facebook." They're like, "You have to. You have to tell people what's happening." I was like, "What kind of CEO, in the middle of this crash, gets online and like, Hey, our company's down." And put on the happy face, like, "It's okay, because... let me blame the servers." I had a million people I could blame, because it was... Josh: It's not your fault Russell. It's never your fault, right? Russell: So, finally, I was like, "All right." So I just, I told the kids, "I'm going to be on in 15 minutes." So I clicked go, and all of a sudden I'm live. And of course, because it's live, everybody pops in, because they're trying to figure out... Because they all want to kill me. Like, "Russell's here, this is our time." And first it popped up, you start seeing the comments, like, "You're effing killed... You killed my business." Like all these things, and just like, "You owe me, how much money." Like all these things, and I'm just like, "Okay." And instead of doing what I wanted to do, which was blame, point to other people. I was like, "I'm pissed." And I was like, "This is not okay." Like, "My business is down, your business is down. You trusted me. You trusted us. We are not doing this right. This is not acceptable." I'm not like... And I tried my best. In fact, the video's still live, it's on... If you go to my Facebook page, and go to videos and scroll down to year one of click funnels, the video's still live there. Josh: That's crazy. Russell: And, basically I just tried… Josh: Somebody go find it and post in the comments. Seriously. I'd love to see it. Russell: Yeah. And I just posted it, I can't remember if I posted in the ClickFunnels group, or maybe it was in my... Anyway, I remember I found a little while ago to look at it again, I remember watching it, I was just like, "Whoa, that sucked." But I did my best, try to take that. Definitive purposes, this is not okay, this is what we're trying to do. I'm just going to take faith. And it was crazy, because I remember we posted that, while Todd and the team was working their butts off. And luckily through so many miracles, they got everything back up. We had a backup from right, for a hit. We didn't lose anything, other than the eight hours we were down. And we expected the next day that half our members would cancel, everything's going to be gone. And it was crazy how by taking the action of faith, people came in, and instead of being upset, they're like, "You know what, thank you. Thank you for not hiding. Thank you for telling us you're upset. Thank you for understanding this is not acceptable, and not trying to be like, oh, thanks for taking responsibility. And over the next week, we didn't see any... It wasn't like, signups and cancellation, we watched those two numbers all the time, it wasn't a big drop. It was just like... It didn't change. And, after that we made changes, we figured things out, we got things solid and looking stable. And that was the last time we went down for more than a little blip here or there. But that was probably the biggest thing, and I remember just being... Anyway. Josh: That's crazy. Well, I think, that comes back to having a definitive purpose, because you had a goal, you were all in. Because, without that, you throw in the towel, and you say this isn't worth it. If you are not crystal, crystal clear, or at least very, very emotionally attached to that outcome, or to that goal of that definitive purpose of where you're at, you should shut everything down there, and you walk. That's crazy. I've never heard that story before. Russell: I'm sweating reliving it. Thanks for that. Josh: No problem. I'm sure the audience loved it though. Russell: Anyway, it was a scary, scary time in between those two things happening back to back. And like I said, and then we started working towards it, and man, Todd and Ryan, and all the people on our team who went and who figured out the problems, and solidified things, and brought in the right people. It's crazy, because people with click funnels are like, "You should know how to not go down." It's like, "You don't understand. At that point, we went from a bunch of entrepreneurs trying to make something, to like, at that point we were like the 300th most visited website in the world." And there's not many people on this planet who know how to handle the database architecture behind that. We didn't know how to do it, and so we're trying to find people. We literally hired people who, they're charging 10 grand an hour to do database administration. So, you hire them, like, "Okay, here's 20 grand. You get two hours to look." So they log in and look around, like, "Here's all the mistakes." And then they go back, and go try to fix them. Then like, "Hey, here's another 10 grand, another hour." Like that's the people who like ran eBay and Amazon. Those are people you have to hire to come and look at these problems, because they're not problems that most people deal with. And if you think about it, we tell you we have 120,000 members, that's true. That's 120,000 people's websites, most of them more than one, most of them 10, 20, 50, a hundred. There's... I don't know, quarter million, half a million websites running all on our servers. No one knows that stuff. Josh: Brad, how many do we have? How many? Brad's over here they already probably got 50, just there. No, we'll run it through. Russell: These are problems, not normal problems most people know how to solve. We don't know how to solve them. So it's like, "How do we do that?" Every level there's new level of stress and problems, and things that they keep coming up, that you just... If you don't have that definitive purpose, and that dream, and that vision, that thing, there's so many things pulling you off the path. There's a million things trying to pull you to become a drifter, from flattery, to failure, to propaganda, bribes, to... All these things are trying to do that, the world's stacked against you. In fact, according the book, 98% of people are there. Josh: Yeah 98%. That's crazy. Russell: So, first off, it comes back to, if you want to shift yourself back, the very first thing is, come back to very first questions, like, "Am I doing this decision based on faith or fear?" That's the transition point, it's not like, "Okay I got to fix all this crap. And I got to..." No, it's like, come back to the very beginning, and if you start shifting your decision making process, to like, "I'm scared." You can still be scared, you still have fear. I still have fear all the time, I'm sure you do too. I'm like, "Do I do that?" But, you don't act in fear, you act in faith. Like, "Okay, I could lose everything, I could be criticized. I could, I could, I could..." But, this is my definitive purpose, this is my vision, this is where I have to go. Therefore, I will act in faith, regardless of these things that they happen. I have to be okay with the worst case scenario. I have to be okay, that if I screw up people are going criticize me, or else I'm not going to be able to move forward in faith. And that's the conundrum. That's where you have to get thick skin, and be okay with these things. And I think for me, I've tried it, I spend time consciously thinking about each of these. Like you talked about death, you don't fear death, for me, for a big part of my life I did fear death. And there's parts of me... I'm thinking about it today, if I was to die, I wouldn't be scared of death, I'd be scared of my kids not having a dad. But, the thing, the belief that I have, and the new book goes deep into these kinds of things, that I'm real excited to share. But, my belief about death, we have to have beliefs, and values, and rules around all these kind of things. But my belief about death is, I strongly, strongly, strongly believe that none of us will live on this planet one second longer or shorter than God wants us to. I believe that to my core soul. So, because I'm okay with that... Because, it's not like all of a sudden accidentally I'm going to catch something and I'm going to die, and then God's like, "Oh crap, I missed that one." That's not going to happen. There's plans, there's purpose, there's things that are happening, and I have that as a belief. Maybe it's not true, but it's my belief. Therefore, because I believe that, I'm not scared of death. If it happens, that sucks, and be horrible for my kids, but, again, it's part of the plan, therefore I'm not afraid of death, because of that. Josh: Yeah. And I had never really even thought about death, until my brother obviously passed away. Russell: You came face to face with it… Josh: Yeah. Like, "Holy cow. Freak accident, helicopter crash, over in Kenya." It's like, "What the heck?" And, I flew around the world trying to figure out what I believe, and what I thought. And the conclusion, I don't know if it's a conclusion, but the belief that I have about death, is I'm like, "All right, when I die, that's when my life starts." I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like I'm, this is what I say? It's a whisper in the wind, like it's a flash in the pan. Life is, we're here, and we're given these choices. And God's like, "All right, here, you got your 80 or 90 years on life. And you get a choice, you can either choose to accept me, or reject me." And then eternity starts, or doesn't start, it always is. For me, I'm like, "Sweet." And coupled with, or partnered with, what you said of like, "I don't think God makes mistakes." So if I die, even if it's a dumb, stupid decision that I made that led to that, it's not like God didn't factor in my stupidity. And so, because I know that, it's confidence. Yeah.

On this weeks show Ep#163 Dear Santa (or Josh) What we want for Christmas is? Find out what Dave and Toni-Ann ask for.... 1. One Thing we wish Disney would do 2. One thing we wish Disney would stop doing 3. A Disney Gift we would like (if Money was no object) 4. A reasonable gift we would like News ,Facebook and more all this week on the show! www.thedisneycrush.com thedisneycrush@gmail.com www.patreon.com/thedisneycrush  

Welcome to the final segment of this special interview! In this episode you get to hear Russell answer all these interesting questions: Who do you look up to? What is Tony Robbins like? How do you “deal” when things get heavy? What do you sacrifice for success? Is there closure as an entrepreneur? What do you want to be known or remembered for? Russell and Josh chat about all this and much more in the exciting conclusion to this “Atlas Shrugged” interview series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson, and I want to welcome you, first off, to the Marketing Secrets podcast; and, second off, to the last part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. The exciting conclusion. At this time, we'd been going for three-plus hours. I was really, really tired. If I sound like I am kind of out of it, it's because I was probably a little bit out of it. We started the interview at 8:00 or 9:00 at night, so this is probably midnight or so. The night before, I had slept three hours. Or, two nights before, it was three-and-a-half... Three hours and 12 minutes. I remember. I wear an aura ring, so I track my sleep cycle. So, the night before, I slept three hours and 12 minutes. The night before this was, like, five hours. So I was tired. I was worn out. But I still had a lot of fun with it. I think Josh is a great interviewer. And I think that we had a lot of fun talking about all this stuff. So, with that said, you guys, hope you enjoyed this interview series. And, when we come back from the theme song, you have a chance to jump right into the exciting conclusion. Part five of the Atlas Shrugged interview. Josh Forti: So, one of the things you talk about in... Well, actually, expert secrets. But I think they mention it... She kind of mentions it in this book, too... is creating belief by looking up to somebody. And, if you can't see it, if nobody else has done it, then it's hard for people to kind of imagine it and ingrain it. Like, for me, I look up at... I'm like, "Who do I want to be like? What business do I want?" I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like you and your books, I want to be like that type of bit here. And then Katie Richards is another one. Being a powerful person, just in general. Okay, like, these are the people that I look up to, and I'm like, "Okay. That's what I'm going towards." So, for you, who are those people? Like, in your life. That you look up to, and you're like, "Okay, that's it." Because I feel like, the higher you get... And, I mean, you're not all the way up the ladder, right? There's still plenty more. But you're way above where the average person is going to get to. The average person has a lot of people they can look up to. You, there's a lot less options, I feel like. Who are those people that you look up to and go, "Okay, that's who I'm trying to be more like," or, "That's where I learned my lessons from." Russell Brunson: Yeah. There's different parts of my life for different people, too. You know? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I look at the business side, I know the companies I aspire to be like. Salesforce, Shopify, HubSpot. Those are companies that are just like the next tier, but from where we are. That they've crossed the chasm, where we're still trying to figure out how to... That next tier. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think watching them has been... That's when we said we'd go to DreamForce two years in a row, just because I wanted to... And I talked about it, actually, on my podcast. Because when I was out there, it was like... And you need to see it to understand it. Because I remember, when I was wrestling, my dad, my freshman year, took us to the... I had just started wrestling. He took us to the state tournament. I saw this guy on my team win state. And I was like, "That's what I want." Exactly what it was. That'd be my goal. And you see it to do it. So I think for me, those are kind of the businesses that I look up to. People, I mean, Tony... From an influence... Like, people speaking, Tony still, to me, is like... Who's bigger than him, right? Josh: Right, right. Russell: Or better. And the fact I've had a chance to build a friendship with him is really cool, because it's been interesting to see him not on stage. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has a chance to see him on stage, and he's the best in the world on there. But then you see him offstage, and see who he really is. And it's just cool to see that, I don't know, someone who's been doing this for that long, consistently, who still cares, who's still doing this. He doesn't need money, but he still is doing events almost every day of the year, because he wants that. So I think that- Josh: He can stop. Russell: Yeah. And I get it. I have so much respect for that. So I think that's a big thing. Yeah. Just, different areas of life, there's different people. But- Josh: What's it like- Russell: I've tried harder and harder to get closer and closer to him, because I like seeing... I like understanding them, not just from the outside, but understanding from inside. Because it's just a different perspective that you don't get. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. What is it it like? What is Tony like? Russell: Honestly, he's like a little kid. We went to his house, and... I can't talk with details, but he had a slide in his house, and he went down the slide with us, and it just... It was really cool. And we had a chance to go with him and do the meditation thing. And the way he served us, when we were with him at his house, you can tell it's how he wishes he could serve everybody. You know? And that just is hard. Like, you saw him... He's in this room serving us, and he's crying, and you see this emotion. And you're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "he would do this for everyone if he could." But he can't. So that's why you do these big scale things. But it's the best way he can do that. But I think, if he could, he would do that for every single human being he could. It's just really... I don't know. It's cool. There's been a lot of situations, when I've been around him, where he could have not... He could have easily, like, turned it off. You know, but it's sincere. He doesn't turn it off. You know what I mean? And I try to be that way as much as I can. And hopefully you've seen, now with me and my kids? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Russell: I try to. And obviously, there's Russell, who's a more introverted, more reserved, and then there’s Russell who’s gonna be like, "Ahh!" But it's still the same... Hopefully. I want to be growing like that. Like, I'd respect him, because he's... In every situation I've seen him, he's always been sincere. Which is not... I can't say that about most people in our industry, and our world. Josh: Yeah. For sure. Russell: Which is unfortunate, because it's just like, "You are..." I remember one time I was in an event, and I heard this guy speak. He was awesome. And he just breaks down crying in the middle of this event, in the middle of the speech. And I was like, "This guy is great." And he got offstage. And he looks at me, and he's like... He said something like, "I pulled out the fake tears again." And I was like, "What?" I remember just feeling like... Ugh. I just felt so sick. How does someone do that and not... He was all proud of it. Like, "Ha," like, "I got them with my..." I just remember feeling so... Just dirty. And I just didn't like that. I was like, "I don't want to be that way. I want to be..." I don't want people saying, like, "Oh, yeah, Russell's different here than here." I don't want people saying that. Josh: Yeah. Like, one consistent person. The same person on and off stage. Russell: Yeah. Josh: There's certain people that... You just know. You meet them, and they're just genuine all the way through. Right? Russell: Mm-hmm Josh: I'm trying to think... Like Catherine Jones, right? For example. She's awesome, right? We had dinner. I had dinner with her, and... Well, God. I had dinner with her, and some friends... Russell: "What am I allowed to say in the podcast?" Josh: Yeah. No, her and some friends, when I was in Utah last. And I've had her as a client. I've watched her speak on stage, in front of... Live. I've had dinner with her. And it's like, it is the same person. Right? Russell: So cool. Josh: And there are people like that. And they're rare. I really do think- Russell: That's what people say. Like, "You never want to meet your mentors, because they're going to disappoint you." Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because of that. Because it's like, "Oh, you put them on this pedestal, and you see them in real life, and you're like... 'Huh. Well. That's disappointing.'" And then it negates all the stuff... That's my biggest thing, is that I don't want somebody who... I gave them something, to help them, and they see me in real life, and it's like, "Oh." It negates- Josh: Yeah! Russell: All you just gave them. Which it does, right? Josh: It really does. Because it takes away the trust factor. Russell: Yeah. And so it's just like... I don't know. Because I think I was nervous meeting Tony the first time. I was like, "What if..." Josh: Yeah, no kidding. Russell: You know? And you see him multiple times, over and over and over, and you're just like, "Cool." It's just neat to see that. Josh: So, what's interesting is, one of my biggest reservations about Tony before... You, and Funnel Hacking Live, was actually the thing that warmed me up to Tony. Because I didn't really know a whole lot... I'd never experienced Tony like I have at Funnel Hacking Live, or anything like that. It's so crazy. You walk into the room when he's talking, and it's like you feel the energy shift. Russell: Nobody on earth has presence like that. Josh: It is insane. Like, everyone tells you about it, but then you don't really believe it until you experience it. And I remember, actually, it was in Orlando. The first time, when he was down there or whatever. And I remember, he came... He was in the room... I was in the room when he entered. And energy, obviously, just like when anybody walks on stage, was quite ramped up. But then he just went into his normal talking. And I remember leaving the room. And, most people, you walk in and you feel it? And I remember opening that door, and shutting it, and like... My whole body shifted. Out of this high energy state, into the low energy state. And I felt like, if I was in that room, I could literally go forever. Right? It was just this nonstop source of energy. But what was interesting about Tony is, Tony doesn't really talk about God. Which is super interesting. Like, I don't know what faith Tony is. And maybe he's talked about it in something about that. And so, for me, one of the biggest struggles that I had... Because, well, growing up, and when I first the house, and when I first got into the entrepreneurship, I, like, really wrestled with God. Right? Especially, you know, going through the death of my brother was actually, ironically, the thing that brought me back to God. But I really, really wrestled with that. And so, for Tony, it was like, he's got all this energy, and he's connecting to this higher source, and he's talking about all these things, but he never... He never ties it to anything. He never gives credit to... Well, in this story I'm telling myself at the time, he's never giving credit to this higher... thing. Like, where does that all come from? And then, the more I got to know Tony... Not personally, but through his work, and through watching his videos, and seeing him at Funnel Hacking Live... I'm like, "I don't know what it is that he believes." I've never sat down... And if I ever get to interview him, I'm absolutely asking him that question. But, whatever that is, I don't think it's possible to be incongruent. Because it's... I don't know! It's not of Earth, almost. It's like you're tapping into something that isn't... In in order to operate at that level, you can't be selfish. Like, you know what I mean? Do you sense that with him at all? Like- Russell: Yeah. And he is, I think... And I'm sure you've seen it before. You talk political, and your audience is cut in half, right? Josh Forti: Yeah. Russell: I think for him, he's traveling such a world-global thing. I mean, Tony is Christian. But it's tough because half the world he speaks to are not Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: And so he... He draws that line, because he doesn't want to alienate people. Because he's like, "I'm here to serve God, and..." Josh: Right. Russell: “God didn’t send me to serve a certain group, it’s to serve everybody.” I think... That's my guess, as to why he doesn't anchor that in as a hard thing. Because his audience is so massive. But he definitely, if you ask him, he definitely knows where it's coming from. You know what I mean? Because, wherever he talks about it, he's... You know, the first time he told me, he's like... It's funny, because I'd experienced this myself, and didn't have words to put to it. Because I come on stage, I have a plan, everything's there. I start talking, and all of the sudden, like, something comes through me? And he's like, "It never comes out the way that I plan, but it always comes out perfect." And he's like, "As long as I follow that, it always just works out perfect." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I've had so many times where I... Again, I start talking about something, I don't know where I'm going. I'm like, "Why am I talking about this?" And then all of the sudden, it's like, "Oh, wow." And there's somebody... Like, that was the thing that- Josh: Connected it. Russell: Shifted it for them. You know what I mean? And I think the more that you tap into that, the more... Again, it comes back to what I talked about before, like, where you do that... God's giving you this thing, and if you have stewardship over it, and you use it, he'll give it to you more and more. And Tony, now, who's been doing it for 40 years... Josh: It's actually super interesting you say that. So, literally, every Tuesday, I meet with Katie. Right? And we have our one-on-one call, and we talk for an hour. And one of the topics of conversation was, I was like, "Katie..." We were actually talking about getting ready for this interview. I was like, "I don't feel nervous. At all." Right? And I'm like, "And I'm getting so many texts and DMS or whatever, like, 'Oh my gosh, are you nervous? What if you mess up?'” And, so many… So many different things, right? And I'm like, "I don't feel any of that. I feel like this is just like, 'All right, cool. I'm flying out to Russell. We're gonna hang out. It's gonna be great. We're gonna go.'" And I'm like, "So, why is everybody else telling me I should be nervous? Right? Like, why is that a thing?" One of the things that she said was like, "Being who you are, being your person, knowing yourself, and, like, doing this..." But one of the things that we talked about was some of the things that you have to accept by faith. And I was really wrestling with this idea of, like, "Am I supposed to be prepared?" Am I? Russell voxed me and was like, "This is the first interview he's ever prepared for." I'm like, "I just read the book. I don't have any notes prepared for him! I'm just gonna show up and talk, right? That's what I do." And she's like, "But that's your superpower. That-" And sometimes you have to just have faith. And she's like, "You prepare 80% of the way, and leave the 20% up to God." And she's like, "And most people are not going to understand that. And, for a lot of people, that's going to freak it out." But she's like, "How many times have you prepared something 100%, you knew every word you were going to say?" And I'm like, "Very little." She's like, "Well, think back to one of the times that you did." I'm like, "Okay," and she's like, "How'd it go? I was like, "Well, terrible! Literally. It was some of my worst presentations. The most prepared I come, the biggest it'll flop." Right? And she's like, "And the least you prepare sometimes, you just walk in confidently and you do your best, turns out amazing." Yeah. Because that's what Tony's talking about, like, "It just comes over you." It's like, if you have faith that, when you show up and become... You are the best version of yourself. You show up the most prepared you can be. And you just fully embrace that, and have faith in the rest? God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, I feel like it just works the rest of it out. You know what I mean? Russell: Understood. Yeah. That's why, before I do anything, I pray before. I prayed before this call. Or, what's it called? Before this interview, before I step on stage every single time. Because a big part of it's like... Without that, what good are your words? You know what I mean? If you're doing it with the Spirit, with God... Whatever you want to call it, you know? For me, it's the Spirit. If you're with the Spirit, then it'll touch people, in a way that you can't just by your words alone. And so I always ask that, and I look for help. And I remember, I think Steven Larson, the first time he was working for me, we did our first event in the room over here. And I remember, before I would do the events myself, he started working for me. And I was in the back here. And I was saying a prayer, and he walked in. He's like, "Oh, sorry!" He's like, "That's cool." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "You pray before you go out there." I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not going out there by myself!" Like, you know? I'm not that good. So, I need help, and it shows up when you... pray. Josh: All right, I have two questions that I want to ask you, before we kind of go to rapid-fire, to kind of bring this to a close. I don't know. We could probably go all night, but... Russell: You just want us to keep going all night? Or you want us to go to bed? Josh: How much longer do we go for? Are you guys liking this? Comment down below. Let us know. Give some feedback. Do you like it? Do you not like it? What are your thoughts? We've been going for about three hours. And I figured, at least, it was going to go at least this long. Russell: I guarantee there's going to be some of you guys who are like, "I agree with everything," to be like, "I agree with half," or to be like, "I don't understand what they're saying. I agree with nothing." So- That's okay. There's nothing... Again, our goal was not to motivate, was not to try to convince you guys of anything. That's not my goal. Our goal was to flesh out these ideas, and hopefully you guys come on the journey, and get some cool ideas from it, and see how perceive life. I think what's fascinating is everybody has such a different perspective on life. And so many times, when we hear somebody else's perspective, we get offended. And it's like, "What if you didn't get offended, and just listened to their perspective?" And maybe you don't listen to everything, but you're like, "Oh. I'm going to take that, and that. Those are two things that were really cool for me." Just don't pay attention to the rest of it. Right? Because I'm sure, if you paid attention to everything that we both said, you probably got offended at least 12 times. But if you're just like, "I'm just going to take the gold that's good for me, and then leave everything else on the side," you got a dozen amazing things that you can use, hopefully. So. Josh: All right. And so my next question is, who are you voting for? No, I'm just kidding. Russell: Ugh. Actually, last year, I don't... Four years ago... So, I'm a big Jack Bauer fan, and I bought "Jack Bauer for president" shirts. And then, that whole day, I was Instagramming and Facebooking, "I'm writing in Jack Bauer! I'm writing in Jack Bauer!" And I would have if he was a real human. But, anyway. Josh: That's funny. Who was I just... Oh, Leah, I was talking to her on the way, as we were driving to the airport. We were talking about Joe Rogan. And, because Joe Rogan is... It's so funny, because people... Like, Trump retweeted one of his tweets. And Joe Rogan's a big liberal, right? Like, he even said he was going to vote for Bernie, before Biden became the nominee. And so I feel like a lot of Trump supporters, are like, "Yeah, Joe Rogan's a Trump fan!" Like, Joe Rogan is not a Trump fan. That's not at all what it is. And so we were like, "Well, who do you think he's going to vote for?" And I was like, "If I was a betting man, I would bet that he votes for Kanye. That he wrote him in." Because he does this three-hour interview. And Kanye answers... If you watch the interview... I mean, I know it's three hours of your time, and you'll probably never get to it. But it is a fascinating interview. And he asked... Because he keeps trying to bring Kanye back to like, "If you were president, what would you do?" Because Kanye is like, "I'm going to be president. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," right? Like, "If I don't win this year, I'm going to for sure win in 2024." Kanye, I love your confidence. But anyway, so, Kanye answers these questions completely differently. And so, anyway. I don't want to run with that. But, my real question for you... So, you can go long on these, or we can go rapid-fire questions on them. Either way. Atlas Shrugged. Got the world on his shoulders. You feel that. How do you deal with that responsibility? Because I'm sure there's been times, I know in my own life, with my three to five little people that I'm managing, and some contractors, I'm like, "Oh my gosh! If I have to take one more thing, I'm just going to explode!" Right? Like, if we don't... So how do you, how do you deal with that pressure, and not... One of the things that I've had to learn how to do is, I don't know if anger is the right word, but deal with not taking out my frustration on somebody else. Right? Like, God bless Leah. She knows me super, super well. And like she knows the moods where it's like, "Don't ask him a question." Like, "Avoid it, and let him cool off," because if you say the wrong thing right now, I'm just going to inadvertently take it out on her. And I've had to learn how to balance that and communicate that. How do you deal with all that pressure, and still... You've got 400 people looking up to you. I know you don't talk to them everyday, but that's a lot. Russell: Yeah. That's just employees. And you have the community, and... Josh: Right. Russell: Yeah, it gets heavy. A lot. And I think it's funny, because, as you read the book, you know, Atlas Shrugged and walked away from the thing... Josh: Right. Russell: And I think for me, I don't want to walk away. You know what I mean? I don't think... That's a big thing. And I think, because the first part is, I was thinking about it, that... Because I'm a big believer that this, for me, is a calling. It's a mantle. This is what I've been called to do at this time in my life. And since, as heavy as it gets... Like, man, think about other people in a different time who had to carry a burden they didn't want to lift, right? There's tons of them. So I think about that a lot. I reached out to other people who were producers, who I know have heavy... You can ask Garrett White. Every time I'm stressing out to the max, I text Garrett, and I'm like, "Hey, man. Life's heavy. Just thinking about you." And he always sends back something about, like, "Dude, do you realize how you've changed my..." just things like that, that just... It's just like, "Okay, it's worth it. Thank you." And then, in Voxer, whenever someone voxes me something, it's like, this success story of, like, "Dude, just so you know, blah, blah, blah." And on Voxer, you can star things. So I have a whole starred menu of all the people that have told me how the fact that I'm carrying this has changed their life. So I'll listen to those, and I'll listen to four or five or six of them. And eventually, when I hear those things, it gets lighter. And so that's a big thing, for me, is just that... Dave, one of my... I'm not sure if Dave's still here or not. But Dave's one of my best friends. Josh: Is he still here? Russell: No. Josh: Dave. Russell: One of my favorite humans. Yeah. And now he's... Anyway. You know, he's carrying a lot of pressure, now, too. Dave... I don't know if you knew this... Dave is the CEO now of ClickFunnels. He's taking over a huge part of my responsibility. And he's carrying out- Josh: Oh, he's into the CEO role? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Or, is he? Or he's moving into it? Russell: He is. Officially, now, yeah. Internally. And he's... Josh: Congratulations, Dave. Russell: And, looking back now, something I should have done five years ago. He's so much better than me at... Than I am. But I see him, I see Todd, I see that people on our team who are carrying weight. And having other people that you're doing this with, besides yourself, helps a lot. So I think that's a big part of it, too, is just... I don't know. If it was just me, like that, eventually I think I'd shrug and walk away. But I know that there's a dozen other people all holding that up as well, and that helps a lot as well, because you know you're not in it alone. I always tell Dave, I'm like, "Man, if I was going to war, I would bring you. Just because I want you in the trenches with me. You know what I mean?" And knowing that I'm not in it alone helps a lot. So I think a lot of times, it's those things. When you're where, when you're doing it by yourself, that's when it gets hard. I try to not... And I think our default human thing is to isolate, and take the pressure and pain. And just for me, as an introvert, I'd rather isolate. But I try, specifically when it gets heavy, just to, like, "Okay, I can't isolate, or I'm going to just get crushed." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I reach out, and that helps me a lot to be able to sustain stuff. Josh: Next rapid-fire question, if you will. Success takes sacrifice. So, in managing ClickFunnels, obviously you love it. But what things are you not able to do, or do you wish you were able to do more of, that you are not able to because of the role that you play in ClickFunnels? Russell: Yeah. Stuff like this. I feel bad. There's so many people who ask for podcast interviews and things like that. People that I would love to do it with, but just there's not enough time. I miss... When we were first growing ClickFunnels, and starting it, I just remember coming in in the mornings, and being like, "What should we do today?" And thinking about it, and brainstorming. I miss that part. Now you come in, and it's like, "All right, there's 8,000 things you got to do." And it's like, "Okay," and I miss those parts of it. I don't know, I miss... Not being able to turn it off, but I think... I don't know, it would be nice... I think it's Alex Charfen, I'm thinking about. Like, "You don't want to run off into the white wood." There's times where... And this is dorky. This is the cheesiest thing. Remember watching the last... Endgame? Avengers Endgame. Josh: Oh, yeah. Russell: And, at the end, when Iron Man dies, and... What's her name? Pepper Potts. When she's like, "You can rest now." I remember hearing that, and I was just like... I actually started crying. I was just like, "I feel like I want to rest sometime. I don't know how, or when, or-" I desire that. I don't know how, because there's so much stuff and so many things. And I think, I don't know, I long for that moment. Where it's just like, whatever the... Like at the end of the Bootstrap book. I don't know where or when that happens, but- Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: If there's ever a time where it's just like, "Oh. We did it." Like, it's weird, because in wrestling, there was a thing where you get your hand raised, and then you get to rest. Business, I haven't found that. Like, it's just this constant thing. Where you have victories and stuff, but you never... Again, wrestling is like, you'd cut weight a week, you'd train, you'd practice, and you'd go out there, head-to-head. You wrestle. You get a hand-raise, you go out to eat, and you relax. You sleep that weekend. Monday, you get back to work. I don't feel like, in business, there's ever been that. Like, "Ah." Josh: Do you think it exists? Russell: I don't know. I assume when people sell a business there's some of that, but most people I know that have sold a business... It's harder. Because it's like someone else is taking your thing that your identity is tied to. So that scares me too. And so I don't know. That's something, I don't know if it's like... Is it when I die that I'm like, "Ah." Like Iron Man? I don't know... I don't know. Some day. I desire that. I don't know how to get it, but that's something I'm looking at. How do you get that? How do you get that release you get, where you're just like, "Ah, I did a good job." I think Funnel Hacking Live is probably the closest to that? Josh: Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Russell: Right after it ends? But then also, sometimes... Like two years ago, and it's semi-controversial, and I got blown up for, like, three or four days. And I remember I was like, "This sucks!" Like, "I just killed myself, and now I'm defending myself for three days because of some other speaker who said something that I wish they wouldn't have, but they did, and..." And, yeah. Some of the things like that are hard, but, huh. Anyway. Josh: Are we having Funnel Hacking Live this year? Or, next year, I guess? Russell: Some version of it, yeah. We're in a contract battle with Nashville, where we've done it the last two years. I was just to go there again this year. It typically takes us nine months, for Funnel Hacking Live. Obviously, because of everything, we haven't. We're three months out from when it was supposed to be, and there's no way I can fill it in time. Plus, I don't think we were going to come do there. And so we're trying to push that contract for another year, and then doing a hybrid, something in between. So far, we haven't even got the contract, which is... Anyway. So, something will happen. And I'm dying to not announce it yet, because I don't have finality yet. But some version of Funnel Hacking Live- Josh: What? You mean you can't break something right here, live, at- Russell: I've tried my best! To- Josh: 1:00 in the morning, Eastern time? Russell: We'd love to do some kind of hybrid... Something. Essentially, because I spoke at Tony's thing, where he had the big internet… Josh: Yeah. How was that? Russell: It was really cool. And hard. Because, at first, you come out, and you're in this room, and there's faces everywhere, like, "Ah! That's amazing!" But you're speaking at an event. You shift, and you're looking at different people, which is fun. Here, if you look at people, it looks like you're talking like this. So you have to look at the camera. So, you have a million faces everywhere, and you have to look right here? And you can't- Josh: Oh my God! Russell: And everyone's doing weird things, and so it's kind of hard. Because you're like, I have to look here, or else it looks like I'm not connected to you. But there's so much happening that I want to... It was- Josh: Oh. That's crazy. Russell: It was almost... I don't know if "Dizzy" is the right word, but something that we were just like... It was different. It was hard to get used to. But, anyway, he's building a new place that's three times as big. We're just going to have a hybrid, where half is at... half's the stadium. He said something interesting. He's like, "This year is the year of virtual. Next year is the year of hybrid." So I'm trying to figure out our version of that. And I don't know what that is yet. Josh: Hybrid being part live, part... Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Because I never wanted to make Funnel Hacking Live virtual, ever. Because… it’s this thing. But I also want to make it... Yeah, anyway. So, I'm hoping. I'm hoping the next couple weeks have some finality on that contract, so we can start the next... Whatever the process looks like. So it'll be some version of 2021, for sure. Josh: Cool. Russell: Where people who want to travel will be able to travel. Josh: All right. Awesome. Two more questions. Russell: Okay. Josh: One: what is one thing that people don't know about you? What's a Russell Brunson thing that is a pretty defined part of who you are that people don't really know? Russell: I'm public about everything... Josh: Are you, though? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. Have you learned anything by me since you've been here in our... Josh: Yeah, a couple of things. Russell: Really? Josh: Yeah. A couple of things. Yeah. More from your wife, though. Yeah. She's told... Russell: She's telling you all the good stuff. Josh: Also, your kids are fascinating. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. I talked to them for probably 10, 15 minutes. Russell: My kids are the coolest. I think my biggest fear in life is that I am not going to be the dad that they need. You know what I mean? I don't know. He's going to be like... I don't know. Being a parent's way harder than I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be amazing at it. I'm like, "I can influence thousands of people at once," but the person you care about and love the most? And same to my wife. I think those are my biggest fears. I don't want to mess up the family. And it's weird because, again, it's like all my super powers are like my kryptonite in a family. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so I think I struggle with that a lot of times, where it's just like, "Nah, I'm such a good communicator." I think. Communicating messages. And I struggle communicating with people I love the most. So I think that's it, I think. I am scared to death of cats and dogs. I will not touch them. Josh: Really? Russell: Yeah. I won't touch any animal. They're disgusting to me. And I'm allergic to cats, but the way it came about is, when I was in high school, the girl I was dating, she had a cat, and they went out of town. She's like, "You can watch my cat." And I was like, "Okay." So I came in, and the cat's rubbing against me, so I was petting it, because I'm like... I'd never had an animal before, right? And I'm petting it. And my eyes swole shut. For three days. Three days later, they finally opened again, and the white part was all blood-red. And I don't trust animals since then. You can watch me. My in-laws have cats. I walk in the house, and I stand there. I won't sit on the couches, because I'm like... Because I break out an allergies. If like a dog runs up to me, everyone... You'll see I've kind of turned my... Like, "Don't touch me." Anyway, I don't like animals. Unless you can eat them. So there's something people probably don't know about me. Josh: There you go! Who would've guessed, who would've guessed. All right. Last question. Final question. And I asked this to you... I think I have asked this to you before, but now we're here. We're in person. And we're going to talk. I want you to fast-forward to the end of your life, when you are on your deathbed, and I want you to... All your money, and success, and fame, and influence it's all gone. But you've influenced a lot of people. And you get to leave them with a final message that kind of defines... not what you took away from life, but like the message that you feel like you should put on to some... Pass on, for generations to come. What would you want to be defined by? What would you want that message to be, for people to remember you by? Russell: Cool... And I'm hoping... Honestly, my biggest hope. I'm hoping that when we die, we go to our maker. I'm hoping that we get a glimpse of what our life actually did. You know, like the ripple effect? Josh: Fascinating. Russell: You know It's A Wonderful Life? Josh: Yeah. Russell: When he sees what it was like, before and after? I'm hoping all of us get that experience. Because you have no idea what you're actually doing with it. But I'm sure what we're all doing is... Anyway, I'm praying that we get that moment, because that would be... Anyway. I think my message that I- Josh: That would be so cool. Russell: Yeah. Can you imagine that? Josh: Yeah. That'd be wild. Russell: Yeah. Josh: We need to do a podcast just about our faith. That'd be cool. That'll be our next one. Russell: Okay. That'd be fun. Josh: Next one, I'll fly out here for, and we'll just do it, just about- Russell: That'd be fun. Josh: Just about God, and faith. All right. Russell: That'd be fun. But I think for my message, I would leave it as, I think that... Again, just to tie back to what we talked about initially, I think a lot of us start these businesses, or start whatever we're trying to do, whatever we're called to do, you start initially out of greed, right? It's natural, man. We have these desires that make us want to do stuff, right? And I think for me, when I first got started in this business, I just thought it was to make money, and all these kind of things. And I saw, even when it started having an impact, I mean, "This is cool, this is cool." But it wasn't until... I had a coach a few years ago. She's amazing. And I remember she asked me about what I think God thinks about my business. I'm like, "Why would He care about this?" He cares about how I'm living my life, and I'm keeping to the Commandments and stuff, but why would He care about this?" She's like, "Don't you see it?" And I'm like, "See what?" She's like, "You don't see what He's... Who you've become? His hand in your life?" And it never had crossed my mind. And she started helping me understand, like, "This thing that you're doing is not just to make money. This is a calling. This is literal... This is a calling. You were called of God to do this thing, and the ripple effect, and people's lives you're changing... Even though you're helping people to start businesses, build funnels, it seems like it doesn't matter, but it does. Because it frees people, and then they can change people's lives. And the ripple effect is huge." And she helped me understand that day, in such a profound way, that just these things that we're doing, it's a literal calling from God. I think if I was on my deathbed, I would want people to know, like, when you feel that tug, or that nudge, that thing that starts you on this journey, that's not just like, "Oh, it'll be fun. Oh, I'll make some money," or whatever. It's literally God giving you something. This is your stewardship. Do something with it. See what it is. I think, if you realize that... Since I've realized that, it's been different. Now that I know that, it's like, "Okay, I'm going to run as hard as I can. Because this is not just an idea I had. This is a gift." And it's like these tests, like, "What am I going to do with this?" And then when you look at it from that lens, it's like, man, you can do and create... You have more faith in yourself, because it's not yourself, right? I get scared every time I get on stage. I got nervous before this. Like I get... "You're probably confident, because you're on the stage in front of 35,000 people." No! I freak out in front of, like, 20 people! I get so nervous. But I'm like, "I know that I can do it, because this is a calling that was given. And He's not going to give me something that I can't do." And so I think that, if I could help people understand that... I don't know the right way to articulate it, but I think if everybody understood that, how real that actually is, it'd make you run harder, make you work harder, and make you braver, and make you have more courage, more... All the things you need to get that message out. Because you were called. It is a literal calling. And you're probably not worthy of it yet? Like, when you get it, you're not worthy. Like they say, "He qualifies, so he calls," right? You're not qualified right now, but the act of you moving forward is what qualifies you, and what prepares you for the calling. And I think that, if people understood that, man, people would focus so much less on themselves and on their situation and just, like, "All right. Here's the baton. Run." Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: You're now gonna start running. And you would do it with perfect faith, because you know it's from somebody beside yourself. And I think if people understood that and believed, it would change everything. Josh: Russell. Thank you so much, man. Russell: Yeah, man. Josh: This was so much fun. Russell: It is fun. Josh: I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. Russell: How long do we have to do... Where are we at? Josh: We're at three hours and 18 minutes. Russell: Dang. And we're still here? Josh: Three hours 20 minutes. Yeah. Russell: Dang, a lot of people still here. Josh: Yeah. I've got... Yeah. Quite a bit. Russell: Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for coming all the way out here for this. It was cool. Josh: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And- Russell: Oh, and we have the comments now. Josh: What do you guys think of the interview? Yes? Good, bad? Thumbs up? Rate it! On a scale from 1 to 10. On a scale from 1 to 10, give us a rating. 1 to 10. Russell: "I used to think Russell was cool, but now I think he's crazy," or, "I used to think Russell was crazy, now I think he's cool." I'm good with all those things. I'm just curious. Josh: Russell, God bless you. God bless your wisdom and mission. Look at this. Thank you so much. This is amazing. Russell: Smileys are here. What's up, Smileys? Josh: Let's go, let's go. What's up, James Smiley? Great stuff. Awesome. I love it, I love it. I could do... A 1000. We got a 1000 out of 10. Russell: Dang! Josh: That's pretty darn good. Russell: It is really good. Josh: 12? 12 out of 10. Russell: Oh, so fun. Josh: Brent? what's up, man? All right, we're going to have to do this again. Sometime when we can sit down and talk about God. That one, we're really gonna have to get prepped for it. Oh, do you know Nick Robbins? Russell: Not off the top of my head. Josh: All right. He's kind of in the ClickFunnels world? He ran an agency, sold it, but still remained a partner, and then got bored, and then came back into it? Anyway. So he and I had, I think, a three-and-a-half-hour conversation about God. So, it's interesting, because he and I actually have a lot of similar beliefs, but he doesn't believe in God. So he's like, "Yeah, I think there's something out there, and it's something intelligent," or whatever. And so we had a... He uses language. And I don't, typically. And so we had all this big, long, huge debate. So, and we've gone there and said that. Russell: That's fun. Josh: Yeah. So. Russell: I think one of the most fascinating conversations I ever had was with Howard Berg, the world's fastest reader? That guy's, like, 30,000... Josh: Yeah. Oh, that's right! He came here, didn't he? Russell: Yeah. A couple of times, since we've hung out. He's read 30,000 books. I was like, "I can ask this guy any question I want." And so I asked him. I was like, "What's your opinion on God?" And I remember he told me, he said... Because, again, religion usually causes fights. Because, like, "Well, I believe-" you know, and it's so cool, because he's like, "Well, most people read one book, and then they base their belief in God on this one book." He's like, "I've read..." I can't remember what it was... "Like, 1,200 books on God, from every perspective." And he's like, "Based on that, this is what I believe." It was just so cool to see that, I think. And I feel like all of us, instead of us being like, "This is my way, this is my way." It's like, just hear... Even if you completely... I completely disagree with so many people's opinion, but I still hear it. Because, again, why do they believe that? There's something. There's a reason why they believe that. I want to understand that. And, anyway. And it's just so interesting. Josh: That's my big thing. My big thing is like... And that's one of the hardest things, for mem is figuring out... My beliefs are always changing. That's probably reason I started the podcast. I just wanted to talk to people. Right? Like, if I'm wrong... I'm so excited whenever someone comes in and is like, "You're wrong, and here's why!" And I'm like- Russell: "Sweet!" Josh: "Oh my gosh! Thank you so much! I know what I'm onto next! Yes!" Right? Where everybody else is like, "I don't want to be wrong. What are they-" I'm like, "If somebody comes in and proves my idea wrong..." Like, my ideas are pretty thought-through. And I'm a really thought-through person. I know why I believe what I believe, not just what I believe. Right? So if somebody can come along and challenge that? That's one of the things that is so attractive to me about Leah. Leah was smart. She challenged even beliefs that she maybe even agreed with. She'd play the devil's advocate, and change, and challenge it. And I'm like, "that's what I like. I want to grow and expand like that." So, anyway. Russell: Yeah. That's awesome. Josh: We'll have to come back and do that, so. All right. Russell. Thank you so much, man. Super, super appreciate it. Guys, as always. Hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. And who knows? You might just end up in a chair next to Russell Brunson. So, that'd be awesome. Guys, as always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. Those of us that think different are going to change the world. By using funnels! And other stuff. Russell: Yeah! Josh: I love you all. And I will see you on the next live stream episode. Take it easy, man. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: Peace!

Welcome back to part 3 of this special episode series. Today Russell and Josh try to answer the question, “does everybody need to be an entrepreneur?” They also talk about celebrating other people’s success and how having kids has changed the way they work. So listen in and enjoy part 3 of this very special interview. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. We're about to start the third part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. I hope you guys enjoyed part one and part two. I'm sure there are things that you agreed with, I'm sure there are things you disagreed with, that's okay. This whole thing is not about me trying to force anything on you, it's more just to get us all thinking and open the conversations and help us look at things from both sides. With that said, we're going to move now into the third part of the interview series. Again, we broke down our three and a half hour interview into five podcasts episodes. I know these are long, but I hope you're enjoying them. And hopefully it's just getting the wheels spinning. Hopefully, you're enjoying it. And I really hope that it gives you the desire to go and read the Atlas Shrugged book and kind of see some of these principles through that lens. So, with that said, we'll queue up the theme song. When we get back, you'll have a chance to listen to part three of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: Okay. I want to circle back to one quick thing and then we can move on. Russell Brunson: Okay. Josh: So the question I was trying to ask was, when you were like, "Hey, there's the technician or there's the plumber, there's this, or there's that or then there's the person that comes in and makes it rain." There's only a few people in an organization that like, make it rain, right? Like you in ClickFunnels, you make it rain. You're the one that brings it in and, I'm sure there's other people to a certain extent, but you are that person. And you probably have what, 100, 200 people on the support team? That don't actually make the company any money, but they do play a critical role in the sense that the company couldn't function without them. And so, to those people there, how does somebody who... Two-part question. One, can you live your best life in a position like that? Can you be most alive and fulfilled and live a great life, doing something average like that? Number two, does that person need to go learn how to make it rain? Does everybody need to be an entrepreneur? Does everybody need to be... Like, you are so fascinating, you got this whole community of funnel hackers and like, "We're going to go out and choose a world. We think differently. We do it differently. We got all this stuff." Would it be good if the whole world thought that way? Or do we need people that don't think that way? Russell: There was a time in life where I thought everyone should think that way. I don't think so now. I have family members who love what they do and they're obsessed with the art, like the art is what they do. Some people... I've had good masseuses and bad masseuses. Some masseuses, that is their art, you can tell, you're just like, "Oh, my gosh. They're the best at their craft." And I think that's okay, I think if it brings fulfillment, that's more important. But people aren't fulfilled, that's the second question. If you're not fulfilled then why, you know? And I think one of the most powerful things, Myron Golden taught this at Funnel Hacking live, and he taught it at two comma club a couple times, he has a thing called the four levels of value. It's so fascinating because… Josh: Such a good one. Russell: Yeah, it's so good. The first level of value, for those who haven't heard this before, is it just talks about I'm going to not do it justice, Martin's the man. One of the greatest speakers of all- Josh: Tell YouTube. Actually I don't even know, if it's on YouTube. Russell: It's on my... Anyway, yes. So bottom level is, people work their hands, right? And this is the hardest work. Like, the person that's actually building the building. Or typing, you're doing support, or whatever the thing is, they're working with their hands. That's the lowest level of value, right? Like the most you make when you're, when you work with your hands is maybe 50, 60, $70,000 a year, but you're tapped out, you can't get higher than that. Now, if that's your calling and you're good at, and you love it, go all in. Become the best in the world at that thing, and that's totally cool. But you cap out on salary, you can't make more money at a certain point. Because that's the value of that tier value. The next tier value, if you move up one tier, is management. Somebody who can manage all of the workers. And there's people... One of the big mistakes we made inside of ClickFunnels, we took the people inside of our team who were the best workers and we upgraded them to management and they were horrible managers, amazing workers moved into management. And they weren't managers, this is a different mindset. They can go learn that, but that's not where they were gifted. And a lot of times it was irreparable, we couldn't move them back down because in their mind, like, "Oh I'm a manager now." It's like, "No." I think one of things we learned is someone can be a worker and make more money than the manager. Just because sometimes their skillset, like the programmers and developers, getting an amazing programmer to code something is, a lot of times, worth more than the managers managing that person. But in most businesses, most organizations, manager's next tier, right? Because you make more money as a manager because you're managing a lot of workers, as opposed to one. Then you go up the next tier value and it's the communicators. People learn how to talk and to sell, that's the next thing. You make more selling and you do managing, and you typically make more managing than you do actually doing the thing. And not everyone's going to be great salespeople. I think it's a teachable skill. I think you may have seen my early videos, everyone thinks this is a gift that I was born with. It is not, it is something that's been developed. Josh: Guys, you should go look at Russell's old videos, they're so embarrassing. Russell: They are the worst ever. Yeah, when I was your age I would not have been able to do this, it's crazy. So that tier is the communicators and the top tier are the visionaries. Imagining it, you're using your brain to make money. So your use your brain, your mouth, your management skills or your hands. Those are the four tiers of value. So I think wherever you fit in there, that's cool, we need people all the tiers, but like... I did a podcast about this the other day, I'm like, "Whatever you going to be, don't just be a person doing it, become the best in the world." We were in Oakville Tony's Event and we're in a hotel and it was kind of weird because there's a spa, so like, all excited to get massages, but it's also COVID right now. So the masseuses have masks on, they have plastic gloves, it was weird. And I got my very first massage, they paid for two massage it. So I was like, "It'll be fun." The first massage was so bad. I was like, "I never want to get a massage again, ever." It was so bad and I'm sitting there on the table, it was only an hour long massage, by the time it was done I was like, "I want to get out of here, this is just weird and horrible." I did not enjoy it. And I'm a massage person. Josh: Yeah. I love massage. Russell: And I was to the point I'd never want massage again, but they'd already booked us for the next day for the second one. And I was annoyed. I went to the second one and same thing. She's got plastic gloves on like we have to do and the mask. And I'm just kind of like, "Oh, I don't even want to be here." And then she puts her hands on me and it's just like, it was art, it was different. And both of them are doing the same job, right? But somebody was like, "I want to be the best the world." Versus, "Oh, I'm just doing the thing." And you see that in every area of life, the chiropractors, there's chiropractors, that are good and there's ones that are great. Doctors, dentists, business. I'm more, wherever you're at, don't just be mediocre, become the best in the world there. That's more important to me than... You know, if you can be a plumber, be the plumber who you walk in... Like we've had, our house, so many plumbers come in. We had some that come and they fix the leak and then something else breaks and they go “uh…” And other guys should come in to check everything, they make sure it's perfect. I want that person, I want the artists I want the person that this is their art and not just like, "Ugh, best job I could find." Josh: Yeah. All right, so now I'm about to ask you a question and I understand this is totally your opinion on it, maybe you have something to base it on. So, the person that is at those lower levels of value, the average worker that's out there, that's doing their thing, especially in today's super soft victim mentality America that wants to vote for free stuff. Makes me so mad. Anyway. The average person that's out there, looks up at people that make a lot of money and the general consensus, I think, or the way that America slash the world is going is, rich people are bad, right? Like, "You're so greedy, man. You got all his money and you're not giving any to me, you get to go sit in your massive house and your cars and you can do whatever you want." And so, even if they are doing what they are called to do, they'll look up to a millionaire, a billionaire, somebody that has all this stuff and they'll look at it as bad. Like that shouldn't happen. How do you create a society? And this is why... I know this is big picture type stuff, but how do you create a society that allows people to be okay with being the best version of themselves where they're at without looking at you and being like, "You're bad."? You know what I mean? Russell: Yeah. Well, it's not going to happen in our lifetime. It's not going to happen, my belief, till Christ comes again. And when he does, it'll be a perfect, you know, things will be great. But until then, it's not going to happen because humans are humans. Right? Josh: You mean Donald Trump's not going to just fix everything? Russell: Oh, if he does that'd be amazing but I'm not holding my breath. But I would say more so just, for anyone who feels that way, I would look at that more... And I did a podcast about this, if you're not someone who celebrates other people's successes, everybody, I don't care if you hate the person, if you're a big fan or you're not a big fan, if you don't celebrate their success, then you are going to struggle to ever be successful because you're going to be so scared of other people not celebrating your success. I remember... I am not a huge Gary Vee fan, you know this, for reasons I'll talk about in my next book. But- Josh: When I tweet this out on Twitter, Gary, when you follow me, shout out, by the way, The Patriots won the Superbowl more than The Jets. Just throw that out there. All right, continue. I just guaranteed he'd never come on my podcast. Russell: I do like Gary, I just, we had a thing, but whatever, he doesn't remember it, I'm sure. But anyway, he got the shoe deal with... Whatever the shoes. Josh: Adidas. Russell: And he's going to market and for half a second, I was like, "That sucks." And then I was like, "You freaking he's in our industry and he got a shoe deal!" And I ran to my computer. Josh: Or K-Swiss, yeah. Russell: The K-Swiss. I bought the shoes. I got them… And I did a podcast, celebrating the fact that someone in our community got a shoe deal and all these things. And most people that I know were like, "I thought you're not a big Gary fan." I'm like, "I'm not, but that's a huge success, we should celebrate success." Because if you don't, then what's going to automatically happen in your head. If you're Not celebrating people's successes then you have the subconscious fear that someone's not going to do yours. And so you're going to stifle yourself and be successful. So I try when anybody around me is having success. Whether I like them or I don't like them, I always am like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to try to celebrate it." And then by doing that it changes your brain to the spot where you're okay having success, because you're assuming everyone's going to celebrate like you. And they're not going to, but it's different subconsciously. If you are not celebrating other people's successes it will stifle you from ever having your own. And so I think that's a big part of... If that's where you're at right now, it's something you got to change. And when you start making that little shift and start celebrating people's successes above you, it's freeing, it's amazing. Because then all of a sudden you're unlocking yourself, like I can succeed because they did and people are going to celebrate me. And it shifts those like psychological things that you do and it changes everything. It's weird. Josh: Do you think... You're not political, like hardly at all. Like, do you even pay attention? Russell: No, not too much. I was like, so those who read the book, Hank Rearden, and this is part of his demise, is he doesn't pay attention to it at all. So as I read the book, I'm like, Hank Rearden, doesn't pay attention, I don't pay attention. Real quick, can we do a shout out for these shirts again? You guys have seen them? By the way, how many of you guys would like one of these shirts? Josh: Ooh let's make them comment for this first. Russell Brunson: Okay. Josh: Guys, how many of you want to shirt? Yes or no. Comment yes or no down below. Russell: So this is the Rearden Steel one. And this is who is John Galt? One. Josh: Very dope. I'm not going to lie though. Like that was pretty dope, but this one wins for one reason. Russell: The quote is cool. We can put that quote on this one too and make it silver. Josh: Ooh. Ooh. Russell: Okay. This is my selfish pitch. Can I do- Josh: Hey guys, can Russel do a pitch real quick? Russell: Is it okay if I sell something? He says something to you. Keep in mind. I make no money off of this. I don't even know what he's doing. No, we have a little fun site we created just because that'd be fun called TshirtSmackdown.com where we have two shirts and then people vote with their wallets, which shirt they want better. So if you guys want these shirts, you could actually buy whichever one is your favorite, or both if you like them both. Just got to go to TshirtSmackdown.com and they're up there right now. And guess who was the models on TshirtSmackdown? I assume. Are we the models? Anyway, go to TshirtSmackdown.com, you can get one or two- Josh: Oh my gosh. Look at that big your team. Russell: We're super models! Josh: Your team's amazing, dude. They put it together that fast.. Okay. Let's geek out the book here for a second. Russell: Yeah. Josh: The audible door. That, the password that was audible. When I read that I was like, "Yes!" That's a brilliant mind at, it's like you have to say it. And the part that I thought was interesting was, it wasn't just the words he's like, and it's programmed to where it will not open unless the person that is saying it is actually like saying it with conviction or something to that effect. They actually have to like, mean it. Can't just be like, "Duh duh duh duh duh. Okay, I'm in." Like, now you guys want to read the book so bad. Okay. All right. We'll come back to the TshirtSmackdown, comment. down below. Let us know and let us know guys. Let's not go down the comments, if you're listening on audio you can go leave a rating and review and leave us in the comments. But like, if you're just listening, YouTube, Facebook, wherever, comment down below your favorite part of the conversation was so far. I think that'd be super cool. Okay. Let's geek out on the book for a second here. I actually have a lot of questions about the book, but I want to know, what was your favorite scene? Russell: Oh, Oh, so many good scenes. My favorite scene in the book. So it's kind of like the crescendo of the whole book. Because the whole book is asking, who's John Galt. Who's John Galt. Josh: Okay. Hold on. Sorry, David's sitting in the background. Have you read the book, Dave? Okay. So I'm just making sure that you're not just sitting over here, like freaking out. Dave's like I have to read it too. I was like, I need to talk to somebody. Dave, go read this. I'll see you in six months. Russell: So the whole books leader, who's John Galt, who's John Galt. We're kind of introduced to him a little bit when Dagny meets them. And then she leaves and goes back to the real world. And all of a sudden, there's this part where the looters and the government are trying to do this broadcast. And all of a sudden… (static noise) the broadcast is interrupted and they're trying figure how to fix it. But all of the people who would fix it have been taken- Josh: Because all the great minds as society are gone. Russell: And all of a sudden over the loud speaker comes John Galt and he starts the speech. And the speech I think is 80 pages in the book. It's four hours on the audio book, four hours. This is why you don't watch you to movie you by the way. Cause it's less than 30 seconds in the movie. Josh: How do you take out four hours? Russell: Oh, it's such a good... Anyway, he gets on this microphone broadcasting to the entire world, nobody can cut them off. And he gives this speech about… Josh: The entire book. Russell: I’m just freaking out… The set up. It was so crazy, all of a sudden it happened. I was like, "Whoa." And anyway, that was my- Josh: And he ends with this and he goes, and I'll say it one last time “I pledged my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine.” Russell: Anyway, that was my favorite part. Josh: The 80 page. Four hour long version of it? Okay. Russell: Oh yeah. So good. Josh: Okay. I like that. My favorite part of the book, I read this and I was like... So, I like play my life on and act like I'm in a movie, right. Sometimes I'm like, do this. So do you remember what the wedding? Russell: Oh, Francisco speech. Dude! Josh: That might've been better. I promised Leah I would be done after this chapter. And it ends, and I'm like, "No!" Russell: The John Galt had a better buildup and then I didn't know it was coming, there's a wedding and everything. And then all of a sudden it starts happening. I was like- Josh: Out of freaking nowhere. Russell: Yeah. So Francisco, he gives a speech that was like, yeah, I wasn't expecting it. So I think it was less buildup, but it was amazing. Yeah. The John Galt buildup was like, this is like, I was waiting when you said movie. Because I was like, "It can be amazing." Then it's like, come on. Anyway. Yeah. Those are the two best parts. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. At that wedding... I'm reading this and it was like that moment I was like, "Okay. She finally made it all..." And that was relatively early on in the book. I was like, Oh, if the book follows anything like this, this is going to be such a good book. Right. Because he gets done with that and you're just... It's something you'd want to watch out in real life and know that somebody thought this up and they wrote down. You're just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was so good. That was, that was hands down my favorite part. Russell: I want to read the book again, I wish it wasn't 1200 pages because I want to go back to experience it but it's so big. Josh: Okay. Have you read the cliff notes version of the book? Russell: No. Josh: Okay. So yeah. So there is there's, I think there's the cliff notes, like the one that you buy. I think it's like a four-hour audio book, I haven't listened to that one. But usually on cliffsnotes.com, can like read the book. You can basically get a summary of the whole book in like, 30 to 45 minutes. I read it. Russell: It's still worth reading though, you guys. Josh: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. But that's the reason I'm bring it up because I notice 1200 pages, but if you just read the Clifton, but you're like, "Oh, okay. Cool storyline." But you miss the effect of it all. Russell: One of the things that I thought was fascinating. Just because I'm working on my next book, which is not a how-to book, so I'm learning how to write differently. So I've been- Josh: Ooh, you want to tell us all about it? Russell: I'm really proud, excited for it. But one thing was interesting, if you look Ayn Rand did the dialogue in the book, she did all the dialogue, but it's just one person speaking. So it's fascinating. Every time you notice that, like when her partner was in the cafeteria with some guy we didn't know, you only hear his words, you never hear the other side. Josh: That's so true. Russell: Most of her dialogues were just, you heard the one person talking and you could get the gist of the conversation by reading one side, but they never had the other side and I'd never seen someone write that way before. And there's a lot of cool things like that where it's just like... Again, I've written three books now, but I wrote books with Google Docs, with editors and people. Like imagine writing a book in the fifties with a typewriter. Think how much forethought has to go to something like this. Josh: Yeah, that's wild. Russell: It is insane to think that. Yeah. So I have so much respect for people who wrote then. And especially, I'm trying to learn how to write as a story as opposed to how to, and the art of it is just fascinating. As a book, it's worth reading just to see how she wrote is fascinating as well. Josh: What was your biggest... Actually, I want to go down that rabbit hole a little bit further. So writing, is your next book fiction or not? Russell: No, it's just the next book is about bootstrap.com. Bootstrapping is the ClickFunnels story, but it's not like the how-to, it's telling the story as the story, which is going to be cool. Josh: Oh, that's going to be so good. Russell: First thing we're doing is all the core people who've been part of ClickFunnels story. We're flying them out and interviewing them for... I've been mapping out the entire timeline of events as close as I can remember and I'm going to interview... All the pieces from their point of view. Trying to get that from like 50 different people and then take all that stuff, think the timelines up and write the book as a story. So it's a different writing style I've never done before. Josh: That's interesting. Russell: Oh yeah. Dave wants to tell you the cool part. So I'm also like been re-geeking out on The Hero with a Thousand Faces and The Hero's 2 Journeys and all that stuff. Because I want to make sure... Well someday I want to try to sell it to Hollywood or something. So who knows? I don't have the end of the story yet, but like- Josh: Which is by the way, super fascinating because of how the concept concept of going for a target and then going towards it. Like, you don't know the end now you're just like, that is so cool. Russell: Oh yeah, and so it's cool. But I was like- Josh: Russell's so much fun to watch. Russell: So I've been, I've been geeking out on the hero's journey. So I'm like, I'm trying to sync the timeline of the ClickFunnels startup story to the timeline of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, all the core things. To see if I can get it to fit inside that framework, which I think we'll be able to do. it's going to be amazing. Then what I'm trying to do in my new office is I'm going to build the rumors, like a timeline, so the entire room wraps in a huge chalkboard with a timeline that goes around and it has the dates and the years of the journey and stuff. And then writing in each core thing on the wall. And then, you know how in the spy movies, you have like a string that goes and you have the pieces of paper. Josh: Yeah. Russell: As I'm writing the book, I'm going to have the whole thing timed out in a square room. And so you see it all and they can see all the pieces, how they all fit together. And then when the book's done, in that room, that'll be the wallpaper on the room. Josh: Oh my gosh. Okay. All right. So here's deal. Here's a great idea. So you do that up until a certain point, like this is modern day, and then there's an end of the wall. And then from that point to there, that's when you're writing and when you get to the end of the wall you have to sell everything and go into hiding and become John Galt. Like that book's done, I’m out. That's fascinating. Russell: But I get to write a story that's way different. It's not, like all my other books are how-to books so they're written differently. And so it's just been fun- Josh: Which by the way is why when I first got into entrepreneurship I was like, "I don't know why anybody would write a book that's not like that." Like I'm like, "Why would anybody write a book like this? This is so lame." And now I'm reading it and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool." Russell: I tend to respect the books I'm reading now, I just finished Shoe Dog, which is the story of- Josh: Oh that's a great book. Russell: American Kingpin, which is the story of the silk road and the dark web, one of my favorite stories I've ever read, I've read it twice already. And the writer is probably the best writers I've ever. I read it and I was so depressed. I was like, I'll never write... Because I tried to hire him to write my book for me. And he's too busy. Josh: I will give you a blank check, just write this book. You're so much better than I could ever dream of. Russell: So I had to go and learn how to do it. Josh: What was the most fascinating thing about Atlas Shrugged, to you? Like, the way it was written or the concepts of the character, anything. What was the overall, the most fascinating part for you? Russell: Character development was so cool. I think the coolest thing for me was... I'd love to see a sim diagram because I don't know it, but each of the characters each played, like they were a character, they played a role that is like this magnified society as a group, almost. Right? Josh: Yeah. That's actually super true. Russell: Like, you have Hank Rearden and Dagny, and then... Josh: James Taggart. Russell: Taggart's wife. All the people, they were humans, but they were personification of a segment of society, which is really cool. And so seeing that where you're getting this micro versions, macro problem. That was cool because I never, again I don't study politics, I'm not deep into it so I don't know all these things. And you hear this character and you hear the story, and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh my gosh, that represents this group of people that I..." And so for me, it was cool because I was able to understand things at a different level. And I'm not the best at this, I always try to put myself in other people's shoes. I try to understand... That's why I'm not super political, because they get so divisive and I see good on both sides. Like, I understand, I can love people on both sides of it. I think it was so cool for me because you see the pros and the cons of each thing. Right? You see the positives, negatives, each belief pattern. Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think Rearden, as much as I related to him, it was like, there's the good and evil, right? And all of them have that. So it was just cool because it gave me this perspective, I didn't know of so many different segments of society. It made this really cool tapestry and picture for me. Josh: Huh. All right. So now the polar opposite. What do you think the book lacked in? Or didn't communicate well or left out? Russell: I think, something we talked about today, I do feel like most of the producers in the book, they didn't have the other side of it. Right? The social stuff is important, helping other people is important and I get why she did it. Like I said, the Phil Donahue interview, she's like, "People should be social. They shouldn't do it with a gun." But she never showed that she, didn't show, Hank Rearden going in like, "Oh, this is a cause I care about like, let me go and..." Josh: At all, in any part. Russell: I think that stuff's important, that's why we talk about political. On the left side, what they're trying to do is good it's right, it's from God, it's so good things. Right? But there's ways that people twist and all sorts of stuff like that. And I wish they would have showed more of that because I felt like the characters were one sided where it's just, the people that are looters and the people that are producers. And I feel like there's more blend for all of us, we have blends of those things. And they did a good job as dissect- Josh: Super, yeah. Russell: You know? I think we all have all those things, I want to give, I want to serve, I want to do things, but I also want to produce, I want to do both those things. like how do I, what's the world look like where we do both of those things. And I don't know how to. In my little universe that I've created for myself and my family, I'm trying to produce. I'm trying to contribute and try and do my version of what I think is right. All we can do is what we think is right in our own little world that we create. And so this is my world I've created, I'm trying my best to do it. And I wish that they would have showed some of that side. But I think that that was a part, I feel, that the characters were missing just that part of it. Josh: So what's interesting- Russell: Christ-like, charity, love stuff. Josh: Okay. Well, and I'm so glad you brought this up, what I think is interesting, the thing that I felt like the book was lacking the most is nobody had kids. Russell: I didn't think about that. Josh: Think about this, none of them... Because one of my questions, she was going to be like, "How Was having a kid?" And I kind of asked her... Kind of changing perspective, but I'm like- Russell: Interesting. Josh: Nobody had kids. And I don't have kids. I'm not married, I don't have kids. I'm getting married. Russell: Yeah, woo hoo! Josh: By the way. Shout out to my beautiful fiance. All right. But for me, I'm so focused right now. So I grew up in a big family, right. Eight kids. I'm the oldest living. I had one other brother who passed away, but like six younger siblings. And like, my whole life changes once there's kids in it. And I know that even though I haven't experienced it, because I've seen it. And so for me, and Leah and I have talked about this like, "The twenties are for us, thirties are for kids." And so I'm like, "I got to make as much money as I possibly can before the because ah!" And I even told Colette this, I said, "If there's there was one thing that I would sacrifice my career for in order to be able to do, it'd be to homeschool my kids." I can't fathom sending my kids to public school, that's just me because I grew up homeschooled or whatnot. But as I was going through the book, I'm like, "I can relate to all of these people, but like they're leaving out like this key component." Imagine being Hank Rearden and living like he did, with your five kids. Or do you have? Russell: I have five. Josh: Yeah, I was going to say, before I was like, "Oh my gosh." So think about that. You know what I mean? And so I feel like one of the, because there's a lot of people I know that I've read Atlas Shrugged, like, "Heck yeah man, this is the greatest book ever, like for-profit blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "Yeah. But like imagine living your life that way with a family." Imagine living your life like that with the kids and responsibilities, people that you actually like. How- Russell: I think about this. Because like our timeline, it comes back, we talk about growth and contribution. Right? So most of us, we get born. All of us, we get born right. Only way to get here, we're all born. Right? And from when you're born until you're, whatever, for me I got married at 22, I was 22. And so it's like the first 21 years, it's all about you. Right? It's selfish, it's growth. It's whatever it is, it's you, you, you. And everyone's very inward focused. And then all of a sudden you meet this beautiful person and then you fall in love, that's amazing. And also what happens is it shifts from you, you, you, to us. And you're giving, taking, giving taking, and it's cool because, all of a sudden all your focus isn't on you, it's on somebody else. But they're focused on you too and it's this amazing thing where like, I'm giving, but I'm also getting, it's this amazing thing. It's this transition that's easing you into kids because then kids come out and it flips now where it's like the opposite where you're just serving a hundred percent, especially the very beginning with kids. I was joking my kids about this one night when they're like, "Why are you guys so mean?" And I'm like, "Do you realize we get no value from this. We don't get paid a penny from this, there's nothing in parenting. We kill ourselves, we serve, we don't sleep. We work. We hate money." And that's not true, there's value. Josh: I'm just sitting here imagine Russel telling his kids, "We get no value, you do not pay us." Russell: I'm like, I'm killing myself. Josh: To be fair, you do get a tax break. Russell: Yeah. But especially when they're first born, they're cute and you get lots but they're in the selfish space now where you're giving a hundred percent and they're not giving back. Other than they giggle and cute and you're like, "Oh, so cute." But for the most part, you get this time where you're selfish and then it's like, "Oh, I'm serving someone else, but they're serving me." And amazing, then all of a sudden it's a hundred percent service there. And I think that that's a good point. Hank Rearden had only done this thing. And then, he never had a chance to like, a hundred percent serve somebody else and see what that's like. Because the value you get as a parent is when you serve a hundred percent of kids and you see like who they become, that's the value. But it doesn't come from the quid pro quo that you normally get with like, "I'm going to buy this thing or pay for this thing." Josh: Right. Russell: It's like, "I'm gonna serve, and serve, and serve." And eventually hope that someday they turn out to be cool. Josh: Yeah. And that's a super interesting point. And maybe that's why she left that part out of it because she was like, "None of these people would ever have kids-" Russell: And she didn't have kids, so that's a big… that might be the part, she's never seen that. At least not that I'm aware of, I'm pretty sure- Josh: That's crazy. Because going through I'm like, "This book I think would mean so much diff..." So when I first read it, like I said, whenever I first learned about this, back in high school, right. I read it. I hated reading. I publicly declared, and it's actually funny. When I graduated high school, I bought myself a pickup truck, I stood on the top of the pickup truck and I publicly declared to the world, I would never read another book ever again in life. I hated reading. So that's funny because now I'm reading 1200 page books and I've read every one of those books back there. It didn't really take on the same effect as now, being an entrepreneur, being someone at... Like at one point I had five employees and I'm 26 years old. So now I'm reading it and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But if I read it with kids, I feel like that would even give you a completely different perspective on like... How has having kids changed your... Because you're an entrepreneur basically from day one, right? You never really had a job. Right? Russell: I've served tables and stuff, I didn't have a job more than three months. Josh: Okay. So you're, you're a failure in the normal society, right? You can't hold a job, you get fired for... But how's having kids and having to balance... Because man, like, dude, you're running a... ClickFunnels is a billion dollar company. Right? We're allowed to say that? Like that's a thing, right? Like roughly, I'm not off on that. All right. Russell: The value is based what you will pay for so hopefully somebody pays that some day. Josh: So we're going to say a billion dollar company. So you're running this billion dollar company, you've made hundreds of millions of dollars, you've been payed a million dollars an hour from stage before... By the way, big props, congratulations. How has balancing work now with that, with the kids growing up, I feel like now they're at, because you're oldest is what, 12, 14 or 15. Right? So how has that changed the way that you view your work? Do you struggle with that? Like the balance. Russell: Yeah. Especially now with COVID stuff happening. Kids being homeschooled. Because before it was easy to separate because they're going to school, I'm going to here. Separation is easy. Now it's harder because it's they're still home. And it's like, "Oh, should I be there?" It's definitely tough. Yeah. It's interesting. I have so many entrepreneur friends, I always tease them because it's like, who don't have any kids and they're doing amazing things. I'm like, "Yeah. But I'm doing this stuff and I got five kids and a beautiful wife and I got callings in my church." And there's so many things. I hired a trainer, Dave knows a safe trainer. I remember when he started working with us, he said the biggest thing he knows me start working with me is that you'll be shocked what your body can actually endure. I think that most people don't understand what they could actually do. How do you run a company this big and have a family and have a successful marriage and have these... You can do it, and most people don't because they sedate. And like, I don't watch four hours of football a night because I have all these other things. Right. I don't know, it's just you take away the excuse of sedation you can produce so much more than people are able to understand. I don't know. So it's interesting. And then it's been such a weird thing too, with kids, because I think when you first start having kids, you assume they're all going to be like you. Like, "Oh, they're all going to be entrepreneurs." And then I had twins, it was crazy, our first two that came out are twins. Now they're 14, almost 15. It's crazy because I assumed they'd all be the same, the same as me or the same together. And they are so polar opposites. Josh: Yeah, I didn't even know, I just found out today that they were twins. I had no clue. Colette's like, "Yeah they're both turning 15." I'm like, "Wait, what?" Russell: Yeah. They don’t look like each other, they don’t act like each other. One's more entrepreneurial. One's more, if you look at disc profile, I have a DI and we have an SC. Josh: Oh my God. Russell: Introvert, extrovert. All the things are different. And I always thought, you know, my kids are going to be entrepreneurs like me and now I don't think they have to be. It goes back to what we talked about earlier. With my kids, I'm like, "What do you want to do?" And I think some of my kids are very entrepreneurial, a lot of them aren't. I think some of my kids are super smart, hard workers who are going to be amazing at the roles they play in something, they're going to be a huge part of changing somebody's world, but it's not going to be the front person of it. And so it's been interesting watching that and fulfilling and hard and it's all the things wrapped into one. It's an interesting experience, you're going to love it. You should start having kids right away. Josh: Yeah. That's not going to happen. But why though? Russell: Because you should know, it takes time. Josh: Okay. But how long did you go? How long did you wait? Russell: Uh, two? Let's see, we had our 18 year anniversary, the kids are turning 15. So almost three years. We tried earlier, but we had fertility drugs, stuff like that and everything, But yeah, so about probably two years and when started trying. Josh: Yeah. I can't... Kids scare me dude. But it's interesting because like I grew up with six younger siblings. So I was definitely old enough to remember the whole diaper phase and like, you know... Obviously I wasn't a parent with it. And the church that I went to, eight was like average to small amount of kids. A lot of them were like 13 kids, 12 kids, 14 kids, whatever. I think the smallest in our whole church was four, and they were the weird ones. Russell: "You only have four kids? What's wrong with you?" Josh: Right. And so everywhere we went, that's just what it was. So for me, I had that rebellion phase, if you will. I don't want to call it rebellion phase, but where I was like, "I don't want any of this. Why would you... They're expensive and they suck all the time. And I can't go do this." I'm like, "I want to be so filthy read before I go having kids." And I taught Sunday school and was very involved in the church growing up and things like that. So for me it was like, "I want to go build my business, doing that is more fun." The interesting thing about kids. And I told my parents this, I don't remember when it was, but my parents aren't super wealthy or successful when it comes to business or anything like that. But I look at my parents as some of the most successful people that I've ever met in my life, because my mom's favorite... There's little things that my mom told me over and over and over again. And one of her famous lines is, "The only thing I need to know in life is I just need to know that my children walk in truth." Right. And my mom, particularly, and my dad too, like both of them, but I relate it with my mom, cause she'd keep saying it, it's like my mom's definition of success and achievement was, "Do my children walk in truth?" That is what was success to her. And she's like, "Yeah, money would have been great, like all these different things." But that was kind of the pinnacle of success for her is, do my kids walk in truth. And so as I have gone through my own journey of faith, which has been, I mean, it has been rough at times, right? I've watched her struggle with it and freak out because she's like, "I just want..." But that's not her journey to bear, but it is at the same time. And so it's always been interesting, kids are this thing where I feel like once I have them, obviously I'm there for the rest of my life, but I feel like there's this stress or there's this new piece of my life that's unlocked that I've never explored before. I don't know anything about it. And I'm like, afraid isn't the right word, but I'm pushing that off as long as I possibly can because once that's opened then I never get to close it again. And that mystery is almost fun to like look forward to, but at the same time, I get to focus over here. Russell: Essentially I remember thinking about this a lot, especially for the first two years. I was like, "his is so much harder than I thought it was going to be." Flat out, way harder. But also remember feeling and thinking out loud, "This is so much cooler than I ever dreamt it was going to be." Like this double-edged sword. And I was like, "Man, I didn't realize how tired and worn out." And all these things. But then so much better than I thought. It's funny. Cause I had a lot of friends who are like, “well, I want to make money, and then I’ll have kids”. I don't think, I don't know. It's different. I would just have kids, you can do both. It's not impossible. Especially when they're first born, they just sit there. I would spend a year or two and just not- Josh: Right, right, right. Russell: But I wouldn't wait until like, "Oh, I need a million bucks in the bank." I get people all the time, I know people that are broke, that have eight kids. They're not that expensive. Like, Cheerios are not that expensive, if you need to. It's just being willing to be there and be loving and be being present for as much as you can. Another thing that's been interesting, especially now that our kids are going to be teenagers, it's like so much harder. That's harder. Josh: Really that's harder than when they're young. Russell: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Josh: Dave's over here just laughing. Russell: It's different- Josh: Oh gosh. What am I in for Dave? Oh no. Russell: Yeah. The young part is like, "I'm tired." That's a hard part when they're young. When they're older, it's just like, am I messing these kids up, I just want them to be successful. That's the bigger fear. I remember a little thing that gave me some grace, Tom Bilyeu, I heard of this Instagram post about him talking about being a parent, and it was so funny because he's like, "Who here is scared that you're going to eff up your kids?" That was how he would have said it. Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: I would say “mess up”. Who's gonna mess up your kids. And everyone's hands like, "Yeah. I'm scared." He's like, "Guess what?..." I got to make sure I gets right. He's like, "My parents messed me up. You're going to mess your kids up. But guess what? We turned out okay in the end. Just be okay with the fact that you're going to mess your kids up because you are." And I remember, I was like, "Okay, everyone messed up their kids, that's part of it." That's part of the whole journey, that's the journey. And it gave me some grace of just like, "Look, I'm going to do my best. I'm probably going to mess them up." But at the same time you have to have faith, they're going to do their thing and they're going to hopefully make the decisions. And if not, that's why we have God. That's why we have repentance. And just in the kind of leaving it to leave it to him and do your best.

Episode 11 of Sharing Secrets is an interview with Josh Cincinnati, the former Executive Director of the Zcash Foundation. Tor asks Josh: What secrets did he learn trying to bring privacy to the cryptocurrency space? Why is privacy education and communication so challenging? What are the biggest threats to privacy and our greatest opportunities to solve them? And what relationship is there between protecting privacy and decentralization? Do they go hand in hand - or are they at odds? Josh on Twitter: https://twitter.com/acityinohio --- Sharing Secrets - a new series from the Secret Foundation - explores the biggest secrets of the blockchain and cryptocurrency space. Featuring everything from interviews, to monologues, to special guests, to technical explainers, to surprises, and beyond. The Secret Foundation is a key organization in the Secret Network ecosystem. It is dedicated to building, researching, and scaling adoption of open-source, privacy-centric technologies and networks. Its guiding values are Usability, Sustainability, Impact, and Empowerment. Secret Network is the first blockchain to allow privacy-preserving smart contracts. That means applications built on Secret can utilize encrypted data without revealing it to anyone, even the nodes in the network. Using groundbreaking privacy technologies (such as trusted execution environments), Secret Network allows developers to build new types of powerful, permissionless, privacy-preserving applications - Secret Apps. Join our communities and help us build! Homepage: https://scrt.network Official Chat: https://chat.scrt.network Community Telegram: https://t.me/scrtcommunity Official Twitter: https://twitter.com/secretnetwork

Welcome to the first episode in a special 5 part series. Over the course of these next 5 episodes, you’ll get to hear an interview between Russell Brunson and Josh Forti about the book “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand. But this interview is much more than just them talking about the book, they are actually discussing business, religion, and politics (a subject Russell doesn’t talk about often) as they pertain to the concepts in the book. In this first section, you’ll get to hear the introduction and the basis for how the entire conversation will flow. The first main topic of the book, and the main concept for this episode is greed. Is it bad? Can it be good? Are we born with it? Can we change? So listen in to part one of this unique interview and start reading “Atlas Shrugged” (just read it, the movies aren’t great), so you can be ready for part 2! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. And right now, I have a treat for you. Over the next five episodes, I'm going to be taking you in behind the scenes of an interview that I did with Josh Forti about the book, Atlas Shrugged. And some of you guys have read Atlas Shrugged, some of you haven't. Some of you know the premise, some of you don't. And I want to preface this by saying I do not believe in everything taught in the Atlas Shrugged book. I love a lot of it. It talks about producers versus consumers, the looters and the takers versus those in society who are the creators. Right? And there's a lot of things I strongly align with. There's also things that I don't strongly align with. And so I love the book, one of my favorites I've ever read. And so that's the first thing. Number two is, as I finished the book, I remember Josh Forti, who's one of our funnel hackers, he wanted to do the interview with me and I was just like, "I don't have time for interviews." And we're getting closer and closer to the election, we talked on Facebook. We were posting some comments and I was like, "You know what? The interview that I would actually love to do would be about Atlas Shrugged, looking at the whole political thing as it's happening right now and the elections and everything, through the lens of Atlas Shrugged. That'd actually be fascinating for me," because I don't typically, as you know, talk about politics. Right? I do talk about religion, but I don't talk about politics. That's not something I typically go into, but I thought it'd be interesting to look at politics from the lens of Atlas Shrugged. And so in this interview series, it's a lot of fun. We talk about producers versus consumers. We talk about the left and the right. We talk about some political things. Now Josh, just so you know ahead of time, he's very pro-Trump, very much on that side of the discussions during this interview. And this interview, just so you know, took place before the elections. As of right now, I'm still not sure who won. You guys probably will know by the time you're listening to this, but as of when I'm recording this, we don't know, but he definitely leans on the Trump side. I don't really share much of my political beliefs, but you'll get kind of what I believe and why I believe it through the lens of Atlas Shrugged over this interview series. So I hope you enjoy it. It was a lot of fun to do, a lot of great feedback and comments. And again, we talk about stuff I don't typically talk about ever. So this may be a one-time shot to hear inside my mind when it comes to politics, religion, and all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, the book. So with that said, I want to introduce you guys to the first part of this five-part interview series with me and Josh Forti, talking about Atlas Shrugged. Russell Brunson: Are we live? Josh Forti: We are live. Russell: What's up, everybody? Josh: Oh, my word, with the incredibly ... I don't know if long-waited. It hasn't really been that long. Two months ago. So much expected podcast with Mr. Russell Brunson, himself. How are you doing, dude? Russell: I'm doing amazing, man. Thanks for flying all the way to Boise just for this conversation. Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Dude, this is probably the conversation I'm looking forward to most, certainly in my life thus far, when it comes to business and philosophy and everything like that. Russell: No pressure at all. Josh: Well, it's funny. Your wife said, "Oh, thanks so much for coming out." I was like, "Yeah, it's certainly ... Yeah, because it's inconvenience to me to fly all the way out here." I will say, this is my first ever in-person interview like this. Russell: Oh, really? Josh: Yeah. Russell: We got the microphones set up. Josh: I know. We have- Russell: He’s a professional. I've never done this before. Josh: Literally, we have a soundboard down here. We've got Russell's mic. Can you guys hear us all right? By the way, guys, for all of you listening on audio, we apologize because we're going to answer some comments in the Facebook feed here because we've got everybody down here. By the way, you can see all the comments down here. Russell: What's up, everyone? Josh: All right, guys. If you are live, comment down below. Let us know where you're tuning in from. Let us know if you know Russell or if you know me or if you know both of us or what you're most looking forward to. And Russell, I'm going to be honest with you. We're just going to be super chill. Guys, we have a live audience back here. We've got Dave. Dave's over there. We've got Jake and Nick. Russell: What's up, Dave? Josh: Where'd Jake go? Russell: Jake's working. Josh: Oh, there we go. Jake's working late over there. Russell: Jake, by the way, designed these amazing shirts for this- Josh: Yeah, check us out. Russell: This is my Rearden Steel shirt. This is my Who Is John Galt shirt. Josh: Isn't this great? Okay, but I feel like the back- Russell: Yeah the back I’ll read what it says. It says, "I started my life with a single absolute, that the world was mine to shape and the image of my highest values never to be given to a lesser standard, no matter how long or hard the struggle." So do you guys like these shirts? These are custom made for tonight. And you guys may have a chance to get one of these, but not yet. No, not yet. Josh: Not yet. Russell: We'll let you know when the ability ... If you guys ... Josh: Oh, man. Oh, man. Russell: Anyway, it's going to be fun, but these are custom ... We literally made these today. We needed some sweet shirts…for the show. Josh: Okay, Will says he got your text. Did you send my text to everybody? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Russell on top of it. I sent out a ManyChat, Russell sent out a text. All right, guys. Let's lay some ground rules here. So the quick backstory behind this ... And it's going to be weird. You've got to look in the camera here. Quick backstory behind this is I make a post on Facebook about, what, probably three months ago now or so? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Two, three months ago. And I go, "We need some epic people to interview for the podcast. Who do you know? Tag them all down below." And shout out, Georgie. Georgie comments and goes… "I coached Russell. You should totally interview me." And I was like, "You've got to be pretty gutsy to tag Russell in your comment and tell him you coached him," but then Russell comments back- Russell: And George is an Olympic wrestler. He was on the Bulgarian Olympic team. He wrestled at Boise State with me. He's the man. So yeah. Josh: I commented back. I go, "You coached Russel?" And then Russell goes, "Well, yeah. He coached me. He's awesome. You should totally interview him." And so I said, "Yeah, Georgie, of course, you can come on. We'll do an interview, but Russell, I've got an open invitation to you if you want to come back on." And then you were like, "Sure, if we can talk about…" or no, you didn't say sure. You said, "Can we do it about Atlas Shrugged?" Russell: Yes. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because I interview a lot about business stuff and- Josh: I'll pull the microphone just slightly. Russell: Yes. I don't do a lot of interviews because ... I feel like I've said, but I don't want to say, but I just finished literally probably the fattest book in the history of books called Atlas Shrugged. And I was geeking out on it and I wanted to talk about it. I didn't have a way or someone to geek out with, other than some of my friends here. And I was like, "If you want to talk about Atlas Shrugged, I'm in." And then you started freaking out. Josh: The funny thing was is I go something to the effect of, "You want to talk about the fall of capitalism because of a boycott, because of a brilliant person and why socialism sucks? Yes, absolutely. I would love to do that," to which you don't give me a yes or no answer. You reply back and go, "Ha-ha. Oh, man. That'd be fun." I'm like, "Talk about an open loop, man. Come on." So anyway, I immediately messaged Russel and I'm like, "You better not be joking because that would just be rude." He goes, "No, I'm totally in." Josh: So about two months go by. You had a bunch of stuff. You had some fun stuff during that time, hanging out with- Russell: Lot of stuff is happening. Josh: Tony Robbins? Russell: Yeah, Tony, man. And it's been chaos the last couple months, not going to lie. And as we got closer and closer to the election, I'm like, "This is an interesting conversation, post-election, but I think it's more interesting before election." And so was it two days ago, three days ago, you're like, "I will fly to Boise to record this." Josh: Yeah. Russell: "What day do you have open?" I'm like, "Only Wednesday night." And now we're here. Josh: Yeah. It was Friday afternoon. We were Voxing back and forth and you're like, "Dude, we've got to get this done before the election." I'm like, "Before the election? Oh, my word." I said, "All right. Sounds good. What time do you have available?" And that's when I was like, "You know what? I was going to ask you creatively, but I'm just going to ask you. How about I fly out to you?" And you're like, "Heck, yeah." Josh: So guys, that's the backstory. That's how we got here. And so this is an open conversation about Atlas Shrugged and kind of everything that encapsulates. I think we'll talk about some religion, some politics, kind of both sides of the aisle there and open it up. Russell: Fun. Josh: Anything else you want to add to that? Russell: The only other thing I would add is, because this book, by the way, if you haven't read it yet, is very polarizing. There are people on both sides of it. Russell: And I think both of us wanted to stress ahead of time that I do not believe in everything in this book. A lot of things in this book, I do believe in. And it's interesting. One of the things I want to dive deeper in in this conversation, I'm excited for and I told you not to do Voxer. I was like, what's fascinating to me is not, "This is what we should believe." What was fascinating to me as I was reading this book, and we'll get into the premise of the book for those who haven't read it, but the big thing is producers and going out there and creating stuff and doing things, which is what entrepreneurs do. Right? And it gets in the part of greed is good. You should be greedy because it's going to create all these amazing things, which then the byproduct's really good. Russell: And part of me is like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," and then part of me, as a believing Christian, I hear this message I believe in and then I hear in my mind ringing Christ, talking faith, hope, charity, and love. And I feel like they're these two polar opposite things, which by the way, we dive into politics a little bit. There are two polar opposite sides, one that believes one, one believes the other. Russell: And I think that there's a happy medium and that's what I want to dive deep into just because I don't want anyone thinking, "Oh, Russell and Josh just believe this," or whatever. It's like, no, there's sides of this and I empathize on both sides. I want to talk about both of them because they're fascinating. Anyway, I've toyed writing a boy about this concept, these two things. Anyway, I think it should be fun to first time verbally ever talk about this stuff. So I'm excited for it. Josh: Yeah. And I would just echo that, as well. I think one of the things that often happens with me, with my ... So funny. You, who never, ever talks about politics and me who doesn't know how to get on Facebook without arguing about politics, colliding here, but is that a lot of times I get grouped into, "Oh, you like this reading. Therefore, you believe with everything." "You read this book," or, "You support this person," whether it's a political figure or a book or something like that. It's like, by saying that you enjoyed that or that you learned a lot from it, that all of a sudden you suddenly believe everything in it. And that is not the case at all. And I've gotten a lot of criticism from people that are like, "How could you possibly like Atlas Shrugged?" And I'm like, "Well, this is the conversation that we're going to have." Josh: So real quick, before we dive in, I'd be curious ... I want to do a poll real quick. How many of you guys have actually read the book? I'm curious to know. Hold up here. There's two different versions of it, but if you've read the book, just comment below the number one if you have read the book, the number two if you have not read the book. I think that will just kind of give us a poll. We've got 200, 300 people. Russell: And if you listened to the audiobook, we'll count that as reading, too, either way. Josh: Yeah. Not if you know the premise of the book, but actually have read the book and have a deep understanding of it, or not deep understanding. But have like… Russell: Understand the stories them in. Josh: Yeah, things like that, because then it'll be interesting. Russell: One is read. Josh: One is read, two is not read. Oh, more ones than I thought was going to. Russell: Yeah. Me too. Josh: Russell's book is so underrated. Russell: We're 50/50. Josh: Ooh, yeah. I think we should take a poll at the end; what's better, Atlas Shrugged or Dotcom Secrets? That's the real question we should be asking right now. Russell: That would be good, that would be good. Josh: Okay. So we have a lot of people that have not read it, so we'll have to go into the premise of that. Okay. Russell: Are you ready to get started? Josh: Yeah. I'm ready to rock and roll with it. Russell: Oh I’m ready. Josh: Okay. Guys, we want to lay a couple ground rules. Okay? Because I don't know what it's like to be Russell, Russell doesn't know what it's like to be me, but I think we both have a mutual understanding that we could very easily be taken out of context here. Josh: I think the goal, and then I want you to kind of expand upon this, is we're not trying to take a side here. We're trying to have an open discussion about it. This could very easily turn into something that's like, "Why did you vote for Trump? Why Biden sucks, why Biden's great, why Trump sucks," something like that or certain religion. We're not trying to convince you of anything, really. In fact, this is honestly more of a conversation for us. And we're like, "We think it'd be cool to stream it out to a bunch of people because there's a reason for me to fly out here and do that," but the purpose of this is to have an open discussion about the book, the premise of the book, an understanding of it, and then honestly we're probably going to be in our own little world over here. Josh: And we want you guys to interact and comment and engage and push your questions. And we'll go back through it, obviously, but the purpose of this is not to try to convince anybody of anything. It's simple to, at least from my perspective, shed a new perspective and give the perspective of somebody who, for those of you that don't know who Russell is, the founder of a ... ClickFunnels is a billion-dollar company, SaaS company. You have 400 employees? Russell: Yeah. Josh: 400 employees. So from that perspective and from my perspective, to open your eyes to a new perspective of what we like, what we don't like and, like I said, more of a conversation for us. Russell: Yeah. I think that's good. And I think a big thing that we will talk about ... Our goal is not to convince you of anything. In fact, I think I'm still convincing myself of both sides. I believe both these two things that seem contradictory, but I think there's a middle ground and I'm excited to explore it. So it'll be fun. Josh: Cool. So I think we got to- Russell: Talk about the premise of the book? Josh: Yeah, we've got to talk about the premise of the book. Russell: I might have a little mini statue behind me that might help. Can I grab that? Josh: Ooh, yeah. Russell: Okay. So folks that have not read Atlas Shrugged, I didn't know what the premise was at first, but this is the story of Atlas. Some of you guys know Atlas was cursed to have to carry the entire weight of the universe, entire weight of the world upon his shoulders for forever. Right? And so this is where the premise of the book ... All of us, people who are listening to this might guess that you are a producer. Right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to me or to Josh. I attract, I teach, I coach, I help producers, entrepreneurs, people who are trying to change the world. Right? Russell: I'm curious, how many of you guys have ever felt this pressure. Right? When you feel like you literally have the entire weight of the world upon your shoulders. And if you haven't, it's time to become a producer. That's first off. Second off, I can empathize, though. There's so many times, you can ask Dave or any guys on my team, there's days I come in, I was like, "I feel like I'm going to crack." There is so much weight to carry this around. And I'm guessing most of you guys have felt that. It could be with your family, could be in work, could be business, whatever, but you've felt the weight of the world. Right? Russell: So this is what Atlas had to hold. Right? And so the premise of the book, Atlas Shrugged, is what would happen if the producers, the people that are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, what happens if they were to go on strike and they were to shrug their shoulders and be like, "Meh." In fact, should I read your tile you gave me here? Josh: Yeah. Russell: So Josh, as a gift today, gave me some amazing tiles. This is a quote, actually, from the book, Atlas Shrugged, talking about this. It says, "If you saw Atlas, the giant holds the world on his shoulders. If you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater of his efforts, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders, what would you tell him to do? Just shrug." That's things like, what happens to society when us, the producers, when we no longer want to carry the weight of the world? We shrug and we walk away from it. Russell: And the book is a story about that. What happens when these producers start disappearing and they start leaving, they start going on strike? You see society, what happens when the producers disappear. Josh: Yeah. It's interesting because there is no one named Atlas Shrugged in the book and there's nobody named Ayn Rand in the book. And so there's concepts that she's writing about outside of that and it's this ... How do you summarize a 1200-page book? Basically, in the book, there is a main character by the name of Dagny. Russell: Oh. Yes. Josh: Oh. Russell: I was going to say John Galt, but you're right. Yes, Dagny’s the main character. Josh: Sorry. For the first two thirds of the book, the main character is a woman by the name of Dagny. And basically, she is one of the producers of society. And she's not the head boss of the railroad, but she's basically the person that runs this railroad company. And it is written, what, 1950 is when this was- Russell: Yeah. Josh: So 1950, and it's basically this forecast into the future of a government that is basically forcing super, super strict restrictions onto private businesses and making them do things, kind of like today in America, but super, super government overreach in a lot of ways. And so Dagny is trying to keep the world afloat, more or less, by getting the railroads done on time and getting orders shipped. Josh: And I'm super oversimplifying, but around her, all the people that she works with that owned all these other companies that she would buy copper from or she would buy steel from or buy the railroad track from or buy the coal from, all of a sudden all these head people ... Imagine people like Russell, all his friends just start disappearing. Imagine Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Russell all just started disappearing. Right? That's what's happening all around her and she doesn't understand what's happening to them because just, one day, it's up and it's gone. Josh: And so the premise of the first two thirds of the book is showing this story of this producer who is living in this world of super government tyranny, overreach that's super, super controlling and she's watching all of her friends disappear and she doesn't know why. Would you say that's a pretty good explanation of it so far? Russell: Yeah. And every time they disappear, they leave behind a note or something that says, "Who is John Galt?" That's this theme throughout the book, is who is John Galt? Who is this John Galt person that makes all the producers disappear? Josh: And Dagny has no idea who John Galt is. Right? She doesn't even know, actually, for awhile that John Galt's actually even a real person. And so once she does find out that John Galt is probably a real person, John Galt becomes her sworn enemy because she doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. All she knows and all she associates with is that John Galt is taking away all these producers of society and is making her life harder because ... Imagine you being an entrepreneur and all of your entrepreneur friends that you buy stuff from and that you send all your people to, your referrals and everything, you buy all your supplies from, imagine they're all just disappearing and you think it's because of this one guy who's taking them all away and you don't know what's happening to them. Obviously, they'd become your sworn enemy. Josh: So for the first two thirds-ish of the book, that's kind of this premise of they're painting this really, really vivid story of the ... what are they called, the great thinkers of society? Yeah, the great minds of society, basically disappearing. And Dagny and ... there's a guy by the name of Hank Rearden, I think. Russell: Yeah, Rearden Steel. Josh: Rearden Steel, yeah. So Dagny and Hank Rearden are the two major ones left right before the big plot twist happens and you're like, "Oh," and then you get introduced to John Galt. I'm going to let you explain John Galt now. Russell: Oh, man. Okay. So that's the first two thirds of the book. By the way, there's movies. Don't watch them. They'll ruin the book. The movies were really bad. Josh: Yeah. Read the book. Russell: So two thirds into the book, she starts trying to figure out this mystery of who's John Galt. She ends up finding him and turns out that he has been going around and getting all these producers to go on strike, convinces them to, "Look, it's not worth fighting for anymore. All your incentives are gone. Let's leave. Let's go on strike," and they leave. And John Galt's trying to get her to leave and she's like, "I can't. I have to do everything in my power." The last third of the book is her leaving John Galt's presence and going back and trying to figure out how to do this thing as she's watching just government regulations getting harder, and harder, and harder, and harder to the point where everyone just has to disappear. Russell: But one of the things John Galt and the people say, "When the lights of New York go out, then we'll come back and we'll rebuild society from the ground up, after the looters and the people are gone." Josh: And that's basically how the books ends is lights of New York go out and then- Russell: For such a long book, all of a sudden it just ends and you're like, "Oh, I need one more chapter. Come on. Just end it." Josh: And we're never going to get it. Ah. Russell: Well, maybe I'll write it. Josh: Yeah. So that's the storyline of the book, but what I think we really both want to focus here is kind of the premises and the overarching ideas that the book presents, and capitalism versus socialism, and I think we'll talk religion and politics and kind of everything that’s in that, but I kind of want to, if it's all right with you, I kind of want to turn the conversation more towards us now and just kind of start geeking out just about that. Josh: So guys, we'll obviously go back and ... By the way, we want all your comments if you're ... Actually, comment below right now. Where are you watching? Are you watching it on YouTube? Are you watching it on Think Different Theory page or are you watching it on Russell's page? Comment down below because we went to multiple different locations. So we have a bunch of different people tuning in for everything. So just comment down below. Leave your comments, leave your questions, smash the like button, love button, share this out, and we're going to be here. Josh: All right, Russell. What's up? Russell: Hey, man. Josh: All right. Dude, I've been wanting to, and I hate this terminology, but just pick somebody's brain like yours for the longest time. And this book, oh, my gosh. So what do you like about the book? What was your favorite thing? Russell: Yeah. Well, let me tell the backstory. So 2008 is when the market crashed last time, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I didn't realize that, that year, over 500,000 copies were sold organically by people talking to me about it, talking about, "Everything's she's prophesying is happening right now." And so, back then, I remember all my entrepreneur friends, like, "You have to read this book." It was the word-of-mouth buzz that sold 500,000 copies of a book has been ... The author died, whatever, 30 years earlier. There's not active marketing out there. It's crazy. And everyone's talking about it, like, "What's happening in this book is happening in 2008." And it was just this prophecy that was being fulfilled. Russell: And so everyone in 2008 was telling me to read this book. I remember buying it and I was like, "This is a really, really big book." And it took me awhile to get into it and I could never get into it. I read the first, I don't know, first 200 or 300 pages four or five times. And then, finally, this summer, one of my very first trips where I didn't bring a laptop since my marriage. So my wife is very proud of me. Josh: Dang. Russell: And so as I was leaving the office, I grabbed this book. And I picked it up and I was like, "I have no computer, but I've got this." And usually, I bring 20 books just because I know I'm going to read. I just brought one and I was like, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to be forced. I'm on a lake for a week and a half with my kids and all I can do is read this book." So I brought it, got the audiobook, as well. It's funny, I do the same. I listen to the audiobook and I read along so I can listen to it way faster, that way. And I started going through it. It took me a little while. She does such a good job of character development at the very beginning, it took awhile to get into it. Josh: Yeah, for sure. Russell: And then the story hits and then you're just like ... And you couldn't- Josh: It's like thing, after thing, after thing. It's so quick. Russell: Oh, yeah. And it got crazy. So for me, it was interesting because I think, if I would've listened to it 10 years ago or read it 10 years ago, I had never experienced any of the things they talk about in this book. Right? Josh: Now you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. Russell: Even better. I never experienced government regulations and things like that or just those kind of things. And as ClickFunnels has grown from me and Todd to our first member, to our first thousand, 10,000, 100,000 members, 400 ... I don't know how many employees, a lot, 400 plus employees. As it's grown, it's been crazy because you would think all we'd be focusing on here inside ClickFunnels is the next feature in the app, next thing. Russell: And there's the year where we had to spend an entire year just refactoring the software for GDPR compliance. We have regulations that come in on taxes and this. It's constant where most of the battles we fight at ClickFunnels right now is not about, how do we make this thing better for the customer? It's, how do we protect our customers from the government? It's crazy. And just so many regulations and things. Russell: And so I have been feeling this pressure. Some of you guys may have seen my interview I did with Tony Robbins ... not interview, but Tony Robbins did an intervention with me last year in Fiji. Josh: Yeah. That was fascinating, by the way. Russell: I'm so glad we captured that. It was a really cool moment in my life, but if you listen in there, I talked about ... He's like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I was like, "I don't know, but the pressure ... I love the same, so I love everything I'm doing. I love the people we're serving, but there's these other pressures that aren't the game, that aren't the people, that they just get so heavy sometimes where it makes me want to just walk away." And again, as I'm reading this book- Josh: You hadn't read the book at the time. Russell: I hadn't read it yet. Josh: Yeah, okay. Russell: As I'm reading this, it's like- Josh: Did you know anything about the- Russell: I did not know the premise, no. Josh: You knew nothing. Okay, okay, okay. Russell: I didn't know what Atlas Shrugged meant. I was just like, "Oh, it's Atlas ..." I didn't know ... And it was like, when I read this title, like, "What would you tell Atlas if this was happening? Just shrug." And I was like, "Oh, that's why they called it Atlas Shrugged." And then I remember vividly feeling the pressure of this calling and how heavy it is. Russell: And there's so many times I wish, like, "Okay, sometimes it'd be so nice to walk away or to shrug or whatever." And so I instantly, with Dagny's character, I was like ... I feel that with Hank Rearden. I had so much empathy and understood their characters because I feel that so many times. Hank Rearden just wanted to invent his steel and put it out. That's all he cared about, right? For me, funnels are my art. I can't draw, but funnels, that's my art and entrepreneurship. That's my art. And so I just want to do my art. That's it. He just wanted to create steel. And it's all these other things and it's just like, "I just want to do my steel. I just want to do my art. Why do I have to deal with all this other stuff?" Russell: And so as I'm reading this, I just had so much empathy for the characters because I felt like I was the characters, even though it was weird because it's railroads and stuff like that and I'm internet, but I think that's why I really got into it. And then I got just curious, what happens? How does this story end? Be I'm in the middle of it. And depending who's listening, you may or may not have felt some of these pressures. As you grow, you feel them. Russell: It's interesting. As ClickFunnels has grown, we've talked about the pressure that I feel today would've crushed me five years ago. Right? And so you have to go through this thing where you build capacity to handle the next set of pressure, and build capacity, and build capacity. And nowadays, stuff happens daily that's just like, "Man, that would've destroyed me five years ago." Russell: And so I think, if you guys haven't felt that, as you grow, as you continue to try to get your message out and try to grow your businesses, whatever, the bigger you get, the more that pressure comes. Josh: Do you think…with that ... And I want to continue that because it's such a good conversation, but with the pressure, the things that are happening now daily that would've wrecked you five years ago or three years ago, whatever it was, do you think it's good, though, that they would've? Is it good that, at the capacity that you understood, that you took those things seriously then or would it have been better for you to just be in this mindset? I know it's not possible, but looking back, if you could snap your fingers and back then would've had the mental capacity to just ignore all those things and go up, would that've been a good thing? Or the fact that you went through all those things, does that help? Russell: The going through it is what makes you worthy of the things, right? Josh: Being able to… Russell: It makes you ready for it. Otherwise, just like lifting weights, if you try to squat 800 pounds, that's what it feels like. Right? Your legs buckle and you die, but because you went through that thing, you're able to have the capacity to hold the weight. Josh: Okay. Russell: Yeah. So anyways, the thing for me that was the big thing is reading this. And so I was just fascinated because I was like, "This is kind of my story. How does it end?" Josh: How long did it take you to get through it? Russell: I'd say about two months. I got a lot of it done on the boat, and then I got into biking for a little while, so I was listening to it while I was biking. Josh: That's right, I remember that. Russell: I just kept biking and biking, like, "One more chapter, one more chapter." I'm in really good shape because of it. It's funny because one of the premises ... And they don't say greed is good, but there's a chapter, I think it's called Greed. And I remember, if you guys have ever seen Wall Street, Gordon Gekko talks about, "Greed is good," and I never understood that premise. Right? In the book, they start talking about that, how greed is what drives this whole thing. Is it called Greed? Josh: I'm trying to find it. Russell: Utopia of Greed, yeah. Josh: And then Anti-Greed. So Utopia of Greed and then Anti-Greed. Russell: So what's interesting is ... because all of us are taught that greed is bad, right? That's just, like, you shouldn't be greedy. That's, I think, a principle that's instilled in most of us, but then I think about, for me, when I started this business, why did I start this business? I wanted to make money. That's greed, right? And you think about any of us, we go through a phase in all of our lives that greed is the driving factor. Right? When I wanted to become a good wrestler, I wanted to become a good wrestler. It was greedy. I went and got coaches and spent all my time and it was a very selfish time in my life. Not that it's bad, but it's a very greedy time. Right? Kids, when they're first born ... I love my kids. They are so ... not in a bad way, but they're greedy. It's about them. Right? Josh: Right. Russell: And it's this growth phase where growth ... You have to be greedy. You're in the growth phase. Right? When you're trying to learn, you're sucking things and you're learning and you're not contributing it. You're just learning, you're growing. And it was interesting because, as I'm going through this, I'm like, the greed is what got me into business. Right? And it's what got these things started and then the byproduct of that is jobs were created and things ... All the byproduct of it is ... I think, in the book, how it justifies it, Hank Rearden going after ... he wanted to build his steel and make a bunch of money, created tens of thousands of jobs and changed the world and changes all these things. Russell: And so the premise of the book is that greed is this driving force that gets you moving. And it is. If you think about any aspect of your life, from sports to education, to business, to everything, it starts with greed. Now, we'll go deeper into this. I don't want everyone to think that I'm just into this for the greed, because there's a transition point. We'll talk about it in a minute, but there's a transition point from growth to contribution that happens, but that's in the book where it starts talking about that. Russell: And I remember I was on the greenbelt here in Boise, riding my bike with James P. Friel, listening to that chapter. And I was trying to think, "Is this true? Did I get started because of greed?" And it's like, yeah, I didn't start a business because I wanted to change the world. Eventually, that happened, but it wasn't like it was ... Greed was the driving force that moved me forward. I think it moves all of us forward such a long time. And as I was listening as I'm riding my bike, I'm like, "Yes, I understand this," and the other half of me was like ... I started thinking about my spiritual upbringing. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I'm very Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and I started thinking about Christ and his teachings, which are, honestly, the opposite of that. Right? It's like- Josh: Really the polar opposite. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Which it's funny, whenever you say that, people are like, "You know, Jesus was a socialist." I hear that a lot. I'm like, "You need to read the Bible." Anyway, but I think a lot- Russell: But he definitely is way more liberal leaning, 100%. Josh: Right, right. And I think that that's where Republicans, conservative, traditionally on that side of the aisle, fiscally Republicans get into trouble is where we're like, "Yeah, we're Christians, but we also want to get rich," and they never talk about all this other ... People like to use Christianity, I feel like, when it's convenient. Russell: We call it cafeteria Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: They pick and choose the things off the menu they want. Josh: Right. And then they go through and do it. So I definitely want to dive further into that, but continue that. Russell: Yeah. So that started this question in my head, though, of just, so is greed bad then or is it good or where does it fit in the whole grand scheme of things? Because it is something that's instilled in all of us from birth. Right? When you're born, you're a baby, if you didn't have greed, you would just die. Right? It's me. I need food, I need love, I need shelter. It makes you cry, which creates people coming to you. Greed is a driving force that's instilled in humans from birth, right? When we come here, greed is what helps us survive the first part of our life. Russell: And first, I was having this conundrum. I'm just like, "God, is this book evil? I don't know what to do with myself." Right? But all good things in my life that happened happened initially because the seed of greed started me on motion, started me in momentum. And then I started thinking, if you've read the Expert Secrets book, which- Josh: If you haven't, come on. Russell: If you haven't, you must hate money. Come on. No, but in the beginning of Expert Secrets book, I talk about this concept, as well, where as an expert, there's two phases to go through. The first is a growth phase. Right? I want to be an expert in whatever. You go through and you're a consumer, consuming everything. And that's greed, right? And then there's this transition point where, eventually, you keep trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, trying to learn everything, going there. I'm listening to all the podcasts, I'm reading all the books, I'm growing, growing, growing. And eventually, there's this point. I remember feeling it in multiple parts of my life. In wrestling, I felt it. In business, I felt it where you can't continue ... The ability to grow through consumption slows to almost a halt where you can't continue to grow. Right? Russell: I've shared this story. I think I shared it in the book with wrestling. I was a really good wrestler. I was a high school state champ. I took second place in the nation. I was an All-American. And my senior year, I got invited to go to a wrestling camp. My coach was like, "Hey, do you want to come coach wrestling this summer?" And I was like, "Why would I do that? What's in it for me?" Josh: Before you go on here, I want to ask you something. So you're riding your bike, wrestling with this whole greed thing. Is this the first time that you've thought about greed in this way? Russell: 100%. Josh: And this is, what, six months ago? Russell: Not even that. Maybe four months ago. Josh: So you've built most of what ClickFunnels is today and now this is the first time you're really sitting down and wrestling with this idea of greed and is it bad, is it good, what's the balance there and stuff like that? Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's fascinating. Russell: Yeah. It never crossed my mind, really. And then it became this thing where it bothered me because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I don't want to be a greedy person." You know what I mean? Josh: Right. Russell: I'm like, "I don't feel like I am," but I was stuck. I couldn't figure that out. Right? And so I'll rewind to the wrestling story because I think it will set it up. Josh: Yep. Russell: But my senior year, again, I'd been growing as a wrestler. I was going to camps. I was getting coaching. I was greedy. I was sucking up everyone's brainpower I could and I became a really good wrestler because of it. And then my coach asked me to go coach a wrestling camp. So I say yes, go to the wrestling camp, and I remember he's like, "Okay, I need you to teach ..." My best move… I'm really good at tilts. So for all the wrestlers out there, I'm really good at cheap tilts. And he's like, "Teach these kids how to do a cheap tilt." Russell: And I was like, "Okay." So I walk out, there are like 30 kids. I'm like, "Yeah, you do this. You just do it like that." And they all look at me and they go try and they try to do a cheap tilt and they all just fall apart. I'm like, "Are you guys dumb? This is not that hard." I'm like, "Come back in, come back in. No, you did it all wrong. This is how you do it." I show them again, like, "Go do it." They go back out, nobody can do it. Russell: And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Gosh, they're missing something. What is it?" So I have them come back in and I start breaking down, "Hey, for the move to work, your hips have to be here, your legs have to be here." I start walking through all the things. And as I'm doing that, I start realizing, "Oh, the season why I'm able to do this is because of this," and I started realizing what I was doing as I was teaching people. And as I taught it to people, then the kids started doing it and they got better and better. And all of a sudden, I started realizing, "Oh, my gosh. This move works because of this." Russell: And now that I was aware of the situation, now I was able to make these tweaks and stuff on my own. And I realized that, but coaching the kids, that was the next-level growth. It was a shift from selfish greed growth to contribution. So that's why I started coaching camps every year and that's why I went from slowing down my progression to, all of a sudden, it sped back up again by shifting from growth to contribution. Okay? Russell: And so I think the same thing happens in business, right? I got in business because that seed of greed is in us. It gets us moving, gets us in the momentum. And some people never get out of that. Some people live their entire lives chasing greed and they die and it's a tragedy, but I think for most people, there's this transition point. And I don't know where it happens. It happens different spots for everyone where, all of a sudden, you realize ... you make the money, you started the business, and you realizing how unfulfilling that is. You're tapping out. You're like, "I'm not growing anymore. I thought I wanted money, but I don't. I want growth. That's what we're here on this planet for, is to grow as humans. Right? Russell: You don't get that and, all of a sudden, you realize money's not fulfilling and then you start seeing the other people you're contributing to and you're helping. Then it shifts to ... We hear people talk about, "This is about impact, about growth, it's about helping other people," and that's that transition. That's charity, love. That's pure love of Christ. It's that transition, but greed is the seed that gets us moving, right? And so there's this handoff. It doesn't happen all the time. And are you guys cool if I share scripture stuff? Because- Josh: 100%. Russell: -all this stuff is scriptural. It's not just- Josh: They don't get to decide, Russell. I get to decide. It's my podcast. You can talk about whatever. Russell: If you hate scripture, just close your ears and go, "Blah, blah, blah." So I wrote down some scripture. This is a scripture because it illustrates this point. I think it's so good. Josh: Also, I just want to say, Russell Voxed me and he said that this is the first episode of a podcast that he's ever prepared for. When you said that, I'm like, "Ha! I was the first for something for Russell. Let's go." Russell: I want to be ready. Okay. So this is a scripture. It says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever." I'm going to stop right there. Okay. So natural man is an enemy to God. Why is that? We're born. We have this greed inside of us, so the natural human is the enemy of God because we're chasing after greed. Right? But God gives us that seed because it creates momentum. It creates motion. It creates us doing something. Right? Russell: And then it says in here, it says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, will be forever and ever," and then this is the transition point, "unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." So he's greedy forever, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and puteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Russell: So growth is the seed. It's the natural man. It's the thing we have that's ... It's good, right? God gives it to us because it gets us to do stuff, gets us to learn, gets us to not die in our crib because we need love and attention and to get fed. Right? So then it gets us off our butts, off the couches, us being producers that gets us moving. And if we're not careful, though, the natural man will destroy us. You see so many people who made tons of money and they destroyed themselves in their lives because they don't do that second thing, which is, "Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." Russell: That's the thing saying this is not about money, this is about the impact. Look at the people you're changing. And it shifts, right? If you make that shift, all of a sudden, now this thing you’re creating is not about greed, it's like, "Oh, my gosh ..." I remember, for ClickFunnels, when I had that transition was when I started seeing Brandon and Kaelin Poulin. I started seeing the ripple effect of their business. And I can name hundreds of people, person, after person, after person. Russell: I was like, "This isn't about money. This is about the ripple effect of what we've created in each person's life." Now, that's charity. That's love. Now the mission isn't about money. We don't care about the money. We keep score with money, but that's the mission, is the people's lives and the impact. And I think that's that transition where greed is the thing that gets us moving, but if we don't have that ... Russell: I think that's happened in the book. We talked about it. You said this at my house earlier, like, "A lot of people in the book seem like they have a miserable life." And it's like, yeah, because they never yielded to the spirit. They never made that shift. It was all greed to the point where they let everything collapse as opposed to the charity side of things. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things about the book ... And I'm sitting on the plane on the way over here and I'm like, "How do I articulate this?" Because that's always the hardest thing. You have this idea in your head and you're like, "How do I get it out and explain it in a way that somebody else can be like, 'Yes, I understand that?'" I'm going to go kind of political here for a second. I'm going to bring it back, too, specifically to the book. So I am pretty vocally a conservative. Right? I'm a blatant Trump supporter, very much so conservative when it comes to everything fiscal, but I call myself a libertarian because I actually think that I lean left on a lot of social issues. I think the government should stay out of gay marriage. Right? There's a lot of things that I lean left on, but when it comes to money and finances and things like that, I lean to the right. Josh: But the reason I lean to the right and I typically go with the right is because I like what the left is trying to do in concept. It's like, okay, there's a bunch of people that are really truly in need. I agree. We need to help them. The problem is is that the way they go about doing it, I so radically disagree with it. It's against everything that I stand for. Right? I'm like, it's not that I disagree with what you want to do, it's I disagree with how you want to do it. Josh: What's interesting is I feel like, in this book, I feel like it's the opposite. I actually don't agree with why they're doing it. This concept of ... I mean, Hank Rearden says it over and over again, "Everything that I do is for profit." That is it. Even to his friends. He took a bullet for John Galt, right? He gets shot. And John Galt thanks him for it. He goes, "You know I only did it because it's what I wanted to do, right?" Literally saves a guy's life. Josh: So it's all about what he wants and only for him and that's it. And it's profit and money and dollars. It's not about everything that he helps. And I'm like, I disagree with that premise, but what that leads to, I actually do like. And I feel like it's flipped compared to the world I'm living in now. Half the stuff that the Democrats ... I hate to… oh I want to go into politics so bad… Russell: Left and right. Josh: Yeah, the left. Guys, we're going to say left and right. Generalized here, right? Oh, my god, but generally speaking. And so when it comes to the whole greed issue, I'm like ... It's interesting to hear your perspective because I never, even throughout the book, I'm like, "Greed is a bad thing." And hearing your perspective, I'm like, okay, I understand what you're saying, but is it greed or is there some other driving ... If I were to ask you a year ago ... When were you in the heart of ClickFunnels, like a year and a half ago, two years? There was a time of your life when all you ... I know all you do is ClickFunnels, but when- Russell: It's the last six years of my life. Josh: But you know what I mean? Wasn't there a year or two period in there, in the growth phase, where 100% of everything you do was just ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels. It felt like you were going nonstop. It feels like you're a little bit more balanced now. Maybe not, but from the outside perspective looking in, it does. Anyway, during that time of growing ClickFunnels, before you read that, would you have described yourself as greedy? Russell: No. Josh: What would you have described yourself as? What's the word? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. I was always trying to create stuff. It's art for me, right? So it's like I was trying to create stuff. I think, initially, I was creating for myself as opposed to, "Oh, my gosh. I create this for myself, but look what happens to the people." Josh: What point was that shift for you, though? Russell: You can see it in my marketing, by the way. And by the way, for those who are greedy capitalists who only care about money, it actually is a better marketing way, too. My marketing went from- Josh: For all you greedy capitalists out there, switch to being a contributor, you’ll make more money. Russell: Well, think about it. My marketing is always like, "Here's Russell. Here's how much money my funnel made. Here's how much ..." It was me talking about me all the time. And then I realized, "Who cares about me? I don't care about me. Let me show you what this person ... Let me show you all the results of the people we're serving, what's happening there," which first off, is better marketing and, second off, it's that transition where I was literally like, "Everything I've accomplished is stupid. What they're doing, that's the real ... What we're doing, that's the thing that's amazing." Right? That's the spiritual side of it. That's the thing where it's like, the thing that got you into motion now is doing good in the world. And when you start seeing that, it's like, oh, my gosh. That's so much more fulfilling and so much more exciting. Russell: And people ask me, "The last six years, why'd you keep getting up? Do you need more money?" I'm like, "No, that's not what keeps me up," but I can tell you 100 stories of people who ... literally the ripple effect of how many lives they've changed because I did my thing. Right? We made a documentary of the Two Comma Club and Jamie Cross has this whole part there where she's bawling her eyes out and she said, "Where would my family be if Russell wouldn't have fulfilled his God-given calling?" And every time I see that, I start bawling, myself. That's why, eventually, you start doing it. Right? Josh: But when did that shift happen? Russell: I don't know. It wasn't a day that it happened. The energy of it shifted. Right? I don't know. It gradually kind of happened. Josh: What's that? Dave: Tell them about your dad. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Dave, come on in. Dave's here. Dave, take the mic. Here. Dave: Yeah. No, honestly, I think… this has been one of those things. It's been fun for me to watch Russell from the sidelines here. I think, honestly, it was your dad's 60th birthday. Josh: Which was how long ago? Dave: I don't even know. Russell: Three, four years ago probably. Dave: But it was the reflection on that and it was the difference from having your hand raised versus ... because I remember you… Russell: Yeah, you want me to tell that story? Dave: Russell is a much better storyteller. I'll seed the thought, but I'll let him finish. Russell: All right. Josh: Oh, thank you Dave. Russell: Thank you. Interesting. Josh: Guys, we have a live audience here. Russell: So yeah, my dad turned 60 and we have our little family reunion every year we do. And so it was during his birthday. And I remember my mom gave him $60, six $10 bills. And so she gave them to him one at a time and said, "Okay, the first decade was one to 10. Tell us something you remember about that." He's like, "I don't remember anything back then." The second one, he's like, "10 to 20, that's when I was a wrestler. It was so much fun for me." And then, 20 to 30, he was like, "Okay, that's when I was starting my business, trying to figure things out and trying to get our family stable." 30 to 40, "That's when my kids were wrestling and I was coaching them." And then 50 to 60, he kind of went through everything. Russell: And then, after it was done, I asked him, I said, "Well, Dad, of all the decades, what one was the best for you?" Thinking, in my world, the best was going to be when he was a wrestler because I was like, for me, the greatest part of my life was when I was wrestling. And my dad said, "The greatest decade was when I got to coach you." I forgot that story until Dave said that, but I remember coming back and telling Dave and other people that I always thought the best part was being the all star. For my dad, the best part was coaching other people and seeing their hand raised. Josh: That was a good interjection there, Dave. Huh. Russell: …which was really cool.

Josh: Hey, Shirley. You're from Australia, right?Shirley: Yeah, that's right. From Down Under.Josh: Okay. Are you from Sydney?Shirley: No. I'm not from Sydney. Actually, I'm from Melbourne.Josh: Melbourne?Shirley: Hmm.Josh: Okay. So are there any nice parts in Melbourne?Shirley: Well, you know Josh, Melbourne is a great city. And one of the reasons is because there are lots of parks. There's a really big park right in the center of the city.Josh: Is it beautiful?Shirley: It's gorgeous. It's called Botanical Gardens. And they have plants from many different places around the world. And there's a lake, a small lake in the center. But what I really love about that park is at one time of the year, they have lots of big fruit bats that fly into the park and they hang upside down from the trees. They are really huge, like big sacks. It's very cool.Josh: That sounds beautiful.Shirley: Yeah.Josh: So is there good shopping in your city?Shirley: Oh, there's great shopping in Melbourne. You know, Melbourne has people from many different countries. So we have a great variety of things; and clothing, cars, coffee shops, foods from many different countries. So it's a great place to shop.Josh: Wonderful. What about housing? Is there cheap housing or is it really expensive?Shirley: Well, it's not cheap but it's not as expensive as Sydney. Sydney is the biggest city in Australia. It's very expensive to live. But in Melbourne, hmm, the housing is so-so.Josh: How do you get around in Melbourne? Do you take the bus?Shirley: You can take the bus but Melbourne has something very special that no other city in Australia has. We have a tram system. I think they're called trolley cars in America, maybe.Josh: Yeah, that sounds familiar.Shirley: Yeah. Well, Melbourne has a really big tram system so you can go lots of places in the city by tram. It's really good fun.Josh: What about the tram? Is it expensive?Shirley: Not so expensive; cheaper than the bus. Maybe about the same as the train. Cheaper than a car. Probably, one of the cheapest ways to travel in the city.Josh: What about schools in Melbourne. Is there a big university?Shirley: Melbourne has three or four really big universities and some smaller universities, too. Also, they have some very good private high schools and some very good public high schools.Josh: Great. That sounds like a great place to go to school.Shirley: It's a pretty great place to live.

Episode 7 of Sharing Secrets is an interview with Josh Lee of Chainapsis, makers of Keplr Wallet. Tor asks Josh: What secrets has he learned on his journey from journalism to building key infrastructure for Cosmos and beyond? What does it feel like to be successfully funded by a community proposal (like Keplr was by the Secret community)? What excites him the most about emerging DeFi products? And what will it take to achieve sustainable mass adoption of blockchain technology, including wallets? Keplr: https://wallet.keplr.app --- Sharing Secrets - a new series from the Secret Foundation - explores the biggest secrets of the blockchain and cryptocurrency space. Featuring everything from interviews, to monologues, to special guests, to technical explainers, to surprises, and beyond. The Secret Foundation is a key organization in the Secret Network ecosystem. It is dedicated to building, researching, and scaling adoption of open-source, privacy-centric technologies and networks. Its guiding values are Usability, Sustainability, Impact, and Empowerment. Secret Network is the first blockchain to allow privacy-preserving smart contracts. That means applications built on Secret can utilize encrypted data without revealing it to anyone, even the nodes in the network. Using groundbreaking privacy technologies (such as trusted execution environments), Secret Network allows developers to build new types of powerful, permissionless, privacy-preserving applications - Secret Apps. Join our communities and help us build! Homepage: https://scrt.network Official Chat: https://chat.scrt.network Community Telegram: https://t.me/scrtcommunity Official Twitter: https://twitter.com/secretnetwork

Hour 4: Who gets the most credit for the Patriots start to the season, is it Bill, Cam or Josh? What are the chances that the Patriots make a trade at the deadline and bring in an impact player? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How to Work Out If You Are a Leader With Tim Spiker Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. Are you a leader, a lagger or a micro manager? I've got someone here to talk to you all about the best ways to work out what it is the voodoo that you do in your business. With Tim Spiker here from The Aperio, and he's going to go through what it is and how to work that out. So Tim, tell me, how do you work out if you're a leader, lagger or micromanager? How do you make sure you're doing the right things? And you're not being under spoken, over spoken, I think or any of the other ways that you could be? Learn more about leadership with Tim Spiker at dorksdelivered.com.au Tim: I want to share a little research to start this off. But I know when you start to talk about numbers and research for some people, you know, their eyes glaze over and they say, just get me to the punch line. But for other people, it provides some background so that we know that I didn't show up on the podcast today and made up some ideas that I thought were true, it's going to be ground. So if you don't like numbers, hang in here for about, you know, 90 seconds and we'll get to the punch line. So here's the story about how that research happened. I was working for a small boutique consulting firm, and we had people for a week at a time on the west side of Pikes Peak in Colorado in the US to do leadership development with them out of doors. And we gave them a number of assessments. And we had enough assessments and our clients were asking the question, is there any connection between personality style, natural abilities and leadership performance? And because we had all that data, we could run the numbers and look for those statistical connections. And so we did, and I was excited to get the answer. And my colleague, Vanessa Kiley, she crunched all the numbers and I went into her office one night, what did we find? And she said nothing. She found no correlations between personality style, natural ability and leadership effectiveness. But I turn to go out of her office that night, I remember it vividly. And she said, but we did find something. This is a great part of statistical software, it will look where you're not looking. So we weren't looking for what we found, but it's going to look for any correlation it can. And what it found is within our leadership assessment, we had eight different areas that were being measured. And what she found is that just two of those eight areas were driving almost 70% of the variability, and two out of eight, if everything is equal, that should be 25%, and it was almost 70%. And then years later, we had 10 times the data points with 20,000 data points at that point. She ran the data, and that number went up to 77%. So the issue was, is that there were just two areas that were driving over three quarters of a leader’s effectiveness. And many years after I left the firm. I was looking at those two areas, and I said what is unique about those two, and this is the punch line. So if you don't like numbers come on back with this now, here we go. Here's the punchline. Is that those two areas were about who the leader was as a human being, who they were as a person. The other six that we were measuring were about what a leader does. And that's when it clicked with me, that three quarters, or 77%, if you want to be really technical, but three quarters of our effectiveness as leaders comes from who we are, not what we do. So, if we want to be the very best leaders that we are capable of being, doesn't matter what you're talking about a leader at work or at home or in the community, we have to work on becoming well developed human beings. And we could talk about those two categories that were the big ones, but that's the main punch line. Three quarters of your effectiveness as a leader comes from who you are, not what you do. So we have to work on who we are. Josh: Okay. So what does it mean to then be that leader? How do you find the who? Tim: So I'll give you some really specific examples here. So we can make this actionable for everybody. But the two big buckets that were the drivers were a category that we want to call inwardly sound. And another category that we want to call others focused. So if you think about, I'll just ask you, you know, Josh, if you think about a boat, if I were to say, hey, we've got a really sound vessel here, what are the things that come to mind for you, when you think about a boat, that's really sound? What kind of characteristics does it have? Josh: Sound vessel means that it's has a high level of integrity. Tim: Yeah, keep going. Yeah, keep going. Let's brainstorm a few of these. So that's a great high level of integrity in the vessel. What else? Josh: Yep. So high level of integrity. A sound vessel, if you're talking and that that is already has the prefix that we know we're talking about a boat, is that right? Tim: That's right. Yeah. Go with the boat. Josh: So if you know it’s a boat and you've got a sound vessel, I always say that it's a high level of integrity. Yeah, that's probably the most of it. Like, besides thinking about them, you know that it's going to be able to achieve the objectives that you put forward through. So if you own a boat that was not a sound vessel, it might be leaking, it could be having issues across water or whatnot. You're smiling at me like I've given you the answer you want. What’s going on? Tim: Yes, you may have given me the answer I wanted, but in fact, and gave the answer that everybody gives, which is, I can trust this thing. Like this thing is sound, it's going to get hit by waves, it's going to get hit by surf, who knows it might even get hit by a fish. But ultimately, this is a well constructed vessel that can take a beating, and still be stable. And this is what when we talk about being inwardly sound, it's exactly that. I was doing an interview a few weeks back. And we were talking about this concept of being inwardly sound. And the person who was interviewing me said, so what you're telling me the person is not a dumpster fire as a person? Like, you know what, that's probably a fair description. But the idea of being inwardly sound is that I'm secure in who I am, comfortable in my own skin. I'm not looking to my followers to validate me every single second of every single day because I'm so insecure. You get somebody who's self aware, they understand strengths, weaknesses, here's where I excel. Here's where I need some work. You got somebody who's principled you use the word integrity that falls into that category. Is this a principled person who I can trust? You got somebody who's relatively, you know, they're an emotionally healthy person. They're not swinging up and down with every move. I mean, we are living and leading in some very turbulent times right now. So you know, unprecedented is the most common word I think I hear these days. Do you want a leader who is wildly swinging back and forth with all the ups and downs that are going on in the marketplace right now? Or do you want somebody who's got a steady hand? Of course, we want somebody who's not emotionally being blown all over the place. And you want somebody who has a sense of purpose. So these are the things we kind of talked about. What does it mean to be an inwardly sound person? And these are the things then that we have to work on. This is the part of our message, the part of the research, frankly, that is a little bit out of the norm. And, you know, I went to graduate school for business, and we did not talk about this in graduate school. We talked about finance, we talked about marketing, we talked about some organisational behavior, but we didn't talk about how sound we needed to be as human beings in order to lead well, in order to provide that stable foundation that others can trust. So, that's half of the equation on the inwardly sound side, so you want to jump over and talk about the others focus side or do you have a question on inwardly sound? Josh: That makes sense. I was interested to hear what the Yin to the Yang, maybe or hopefully another cool boat analogy. Tim: Probably won't be with the boat this time. But others focused means that when I roll out of bed in the morning, to go and read in the places where I read, that it is not about me. Endeavor is not about my ego, the endeavor is not about my bank account, my next promotion, that I am here to steward something. You know, I love that word, because it means that I don't own it forever and ever, I'm here to be a caretaker of it. I'm here to move it along. I'm here to move the people along, you know, that are under my charge, that I'm here. I'm not here as the leader on high to be served, but actually I'm here to reverse that role. I'm here to bring up and train up and be about the people that I'm leading, not just about myself. So the things that we talked about there where we encourage leaders to do significant personal work, it's about being curious. So this isn't like, I don't have all the answers and I'm willing to admit that. We talked about being empathic. You know, my emotional state’s not the only one that matters in the organisation. We talked about being attentive, which I'll say on that one in particular, and more and more, as the world gets more and more distractible more and more easily, you know, easily moved. And you know, when you, on your podcast with Oscar Trimboli, he talked about the art of listening. He talked about, you know, not being distracted. With technology, it's actually becoming easier and easier to stand out as a leader if you'll simply give somebody your attention. I mean, it's kind of a sad state of affairs, but it becomes a strategic advantage. And then the last two bits in there are a Greek word Agape, which means to selflessly care for others, and it's got an unconditional nature. So it's not about how you're behaving, it's I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect regardless of how you treat me. And then finally, an idea that lots of people are familiar with, but it's kind of elusive in the human condition, which is humility. And so when you combine those things, now, you've got a leader who's not only inwardly sound, but they're showing up not for their own gratification, not for their own enrichment, but they're showing up so that others in the organization and the mission can move forward. And when you bring those two things in combination, that’s 77% of leadership. Josh: That's amazing. So I know myself I started off thinking 13 years ago when I start a business, am I doing the right thing and I was the only cog and the only person in the business so it's easy to lead yourself, you'd think. You have to have a little bit of discipline to not jump onto Netflix or the like that are some of these other distractions, but as the business has grown, you brought up Oscar earlier and definitely being able to listen and hear is very, very important as opposed to just being present, I guess, with being present in the now and hearing exactly what someone's saying and understanding where they're coming from to be able to shift what you're doing. And I guess, from what you've been saying with being a leader, you did touch on it a little bit earlier, being leaders doesn't just stop at work, it's about being a leader at home as well. And I'd imagine being a leader isn't just about a hierarchal change between yourself and other staff members, as much as it can also be a shift in focus between the family of the business and the way that you speak and deal with clients. Would that be fair to say? Tim: Oh, yes, it's 100% true, because when you break leadership down to its most core components, it's a relationship. It's a relationship between the leader and those that he or she is leading. And so when you start to think about what creates great relationships, anything that's going to create healthy relationships is also going to be a huge addition to effective leadership. So going back to those two things, if I am a stable, sane, safe person that you can count on, and then I add into that, that it's not all about me, that's great for any relationship. And so whether you're talking about work or whether you're talking about at home, I'll say one of the most gratifying things that we get through experience in the work that we do with leaders is we pause quarterly, we go through a variety of those things that we were talking about, the makeup, you know, what does it mean to be inwardly sound and others focused? We pause quarterly and say, hey, let's take a step back from the mosaic of the last 90 days. And let's take a look at what we've seen, good and bad. And I get to hear amazing stories. And I will tell you probably in the neighborhood of 25% to, you know, probably 35% of the stories that I hear from our clients don't come from work, they come from home. One of the reasons that's gratifying it's not just because we're, you know, helping to make a contribution there. But, you know, families, it's weird to talk about families in a bottom line, because it's obviously very different than a business. But there are some bottom line things that we're after in our family just happens to not be finances. And when you see greater effectiveness and greater health coming into the family, you see better results, just like in a business. And what our clients begin to understand for their own betterment and for the betterment of the people they're leading, we come at it through the context of work, because we're able to show a measurable bottom line impact in work. But the truth is, if we're going to work on who we are, we got to work on who we are. Like, this is not my work self that I'm working on, it is the whole of me that I'm working on. So whether that most obvious first bit of progress happens at work or at home, we don't care, that indicates progress for the person as a whole human being. And that's going, if it shows up at home, it's going to begin to show up at work and vice versa. So we love all of that progress, because it's helping people lead more effectively, regardless of how they measure their bottom line. Josh: How do I know? Or how do we, do you have some tool or ability to measure to understand or is it how well I am leading or other people are leading that are listening at the moment. And the reason I asked this is, I find that people are always talking about being happy on Facebook or probably the ones that need to tell everyone that they're happy because they obviously don't feel happy. Does that make sense? So how do you have a sincere self reflection on if you are doing a good job with leadership or not? How can you find your who and make sure that that who is able to be understood, so that you once you understand that that's something you want to have changed, you have to understand it to be able to change it and then migrate from that spot in your mind and your mindset and your belief systems through to the new spot that you want to be and the goal that you have? How do you work out that transition? Or how do you find out where you start out really? Tim: Yeah, in the Google age where the search, the search box wants to finish what you're typing before you even put it in there, I have a very wildly unpopular answer, which is it takes three things. And we're going to talk about depth community and time for us to really grow and who we are. And I'm going to start with the last one, it takes time. Think about the analogy that we use with our clients with our leadership model is that of a tree. And I want you to think about the biggest healthiest tree you can imagine. I mean, I'm now thinking of some of the trees that I've had a chance to see in the Botanical Gardens in Sydney, they're right next to the opera house. Those are some of the most magnificent, amazing trees that I've ever seen in my life. Josh: Ah, we can be friends! Tim: Good, good. I'm glad. Josh How long did it take those trees to become that big and that strong? It took a while. [Yeah, absolutely] There was no little matrix blue pill that the tree was given. And magically, you know, it came up. So the disappointing news for many people is that there's no tip or trick for becoming a well developed who. It takes work and time. And if I could make that different for people, I promise you, I would. Like I would wave the magic wand. But that's not how humans develop. That's not how life works. So the first part of it is understanding to really work on who we are, it's going to take time. It also takes, and we'll go back to the first part now, it takes depth. We have to be willing, and this is the scary part. And I'll just put it out there because there's a lot of people be like, you know, if I can't do it quickly and easily then I don't want to do it. But what have we ever done in life? That was a great value that was done quickly and easily, like almost nothing. On the depth part, we have to be willing to pull up the rocks and look underneath. So we're not just looking at our outward behaviors, but we're looking at our motives and we're looking at our perspectives. And we have to be able to, you know, it's not just a question of how do we come off to other people, but you know, if I'm working to be more others focused, and part of that is becoming more humble and part of being humble is an eagerness to give acknowledgement and recognition to other people. Then one of the things we want to do is, is take a look at that over the course of, we usually use about 90 days per subject and to say, I'm going to look at myself through the prism of humility, and see, do I get excited about giving acknowledgement to others when I could kind of hug it for myself? If I don't get it excited about that, look, that doesn't make you a horrible person. That just means you have space for growth, and we all have space for growth. So welcome to the human condition. We all have ways in which we can grow. But that pointed focus over a period of time, in this case, I'm suggesting 90 days for each one of these subjects, that's what we do with our clients, is to really look deeply and I mentioned that you pull up those rocks and say, what really is my motive? What really is my intent? Am I just trying to look good? Or am I actually trying to be, in this case, for this example, am I trying to be a more humble person, a person who is willing to you know, here's another thing, look at any 90 day period, and ask yourself, how many times have I said, I'm sorry, or I was wrong? You and I both know people that cannot put those words together. You know, they they get there. They're like, you know, can't say I was wrong. I can't say I'm sorry. Those are indicators that we have space to work on. So you know, you know one activities I could just keep track of that for 90 days. How many times did I say I'm sorry, how many times again, what were analysing is the condition of our hearts. We're analysing the condition because what happens is people want to bring the whole of themselves on board for people that are that are on board for them. And so this gets back to the others focused idea. So let me hit on the last thing here community. Let's say I want to get healthier. And I'm going to start a workout practice. And I say, hey, Josh, will you be my workout partner, my workout buddy? And you say yes. And the alarm goes off at five in the morning, and we're supposed to meet at the gym at 5:30. If I know you're going to be there, my chances of showing up go way up. Way up. Some would suggest as much as five times up. And this idea because this is hard work, and because it takes time. We need people around us on the journey with us that are willing to tell us the truth about ourselves in a way that won't break the relationship, and who are also willing to be a little bit vulnerable and share about their journey as well. So imagine that you had a group of three or four people and say, hey, we're going to work on being more humble over the next 90 days, we really want to become that, we're going to trade some stories and how we're working on that. And we're going to travel in this way together to encourage people because it's hard. It's not easy. It takes time. We're going to see some stuff we're not proud of, let's do this together. You find that people have a much greater follow through on the inner development of who they are, when they have community around them. So I would say those are the key three things that we involve with our clients and all the work we do. But people don't have to work with us in order to apply those three things, you know, you can go do those things on your own. Depth, community and time are essential if we're going to work on the core of who we are as people. Josh: What you said, their own community pretty much comes down to accountability, doesn't it or not? Tim: Yeah, that’s part of it. There's also learning element. Yeah, you get to learn from others as well. Josh: I know. Just only what you're saying with the gym membership. I was a member of a gym for six years. And weirdly when the card set in my wallet, I didn't lose any weight. The moment I changed gym. Tim: That is strange. Josh: I know. I was paying the same price, I changed gyms. And when there was a class to go to and they're expecting you to be the class, you've been speaking to people in the class and you have in the nicest way possible have some fun competition, you don't necessarily go hey, I'm going to do more reps, I'm going to say sorry more times in your or whatever the case may be. But you have to okay that person that there is this you're looking at their body types about the same as mine. They're about the same fitness as me. Next week, I want to make sure I'm a better person, you definitely have that community and that feeling that definitely grows. I could totally see five times as a very achievable number because you have that and that's really cool. Definitely, with being able to build that into your business, and do you have much pushback from different people within the business structure that might be old fogies, dead wood or otherwise, that they're not really interested in applying and becoming that new person that is interested in being in the back of the warehouse or the number push or whatever they're doing the Voodoo that they've been doing for 30 years, or what do you do with that? Tim: You know, not nearly as much as I would have thought, honestly. Occasionally, you get somebody that can't get over the hump of how they've thought previously and how they've oriented. What I've seen many more times, is people who are open to the research. And I think it's really important to remember that that's where this comes from. And it's not only research that I got to be a part of with this group. A few years ago, Harvard Business Review published a really telling article from a consulting firm called KRW. And what they were measuring was positive character qualities of executives and executive team. They wanted to look at the financial performance. And what they found in that study was nearly again, the five times in a company, I believe was 4.8 times return on assets from the highest rated executives and executive teams on characteristics. And I'll find that in just a second from the lowest. And so what they were measuring. This is really interesting in terms of the parallel, they were measuring integrity and responsibility, remember those two together, and they were measuring compassion and forgiveness. When somebody said somebody is measuring compassion and forgiveness from the executive suite, really, somebody is actually doing that research. I was blown away that it existed. But think about this for just a second. They're measuring executive and executive teams on those four things, integrity and responsibility, that's about being inwardly sound. Compassion and forgiveness, that's about being others focus. So the words in the research was a little bit different, but it points in the exact same direction. And so, there's other works. David Byrum, who is a consultant who works out of Sydney with Human Synergistics. They have done longitudinal studies. They have over 2 million data points. They've been around for decades, and they're cut across all cultures, any demographic split you can imagine, they have found this exact same trend in their work. They call it constructive styles. But it's the same content. And so you look at these various pieces of data. And when you start to look for it, you're going to begin to see it everywhere. And that is to say, back to your question, do people really push back against that? Once they understand that there's research behind this, and not somebody saying I had a dream and therefore I woke up one day and decided this is what leadership is really about. We weren't even looking for it. We were not looking for this. The statistical software found it. There's other places who have found similar stories. And I'll just put this as the sealer for it. If you want to go around and ask people who is the best leader you've ever followed personally, and they do that thought process and then you ask this question. Why is that person on that list? Why does that person come to mind? If you listen to the answer, the vast, vast majority of what people will say it when they answer why, you're going to hear them talk about who that person is, as a human being. I have never had somebody answer that question by saying, you can't believe how great he was at Microsoft Excel. Never. Not in the history of that question. And what's even more amazing is rarely in the business space do people even talk about profit, they immediately start to talk about the quality of the human being that was the best leader they've ever followed. So when people look at the data, and then they start to look at their own history, and they see alignment, I think many of them become open to the idea, then they start to do it, then they really see how it has worked and has been working and it's working whether they're aware of it or not. It's working all the time around them. It's a question, are you going to go ahead and embrace the fact that gravity exists or you're going to ignore it? And, of course, we want people to embrace it so they can move the leadership forward. Josh: Cool. So don't we ask the question around this time of the podcast around what's your favorite book? But I think you've got a bit of an interesting answer to that one that I think I already know what the answer is. Tell me about your book, unless it's not your favorite. Tim: Well, hopefully, I've got some other favourite books. But, I'll take you up on the question anyway. So the book is called the only leaders worth following. And what it does is it outlines the research. So that's the first part, let's understand what we're talking about. So it goes into greater depth of the themes that we've been talking about. And then it spends the rest of the book diving deeply into these various realities of being inwardly sound and others focus and how they play themselves out to create a more effective leader. And so ultimately, we want to give people not only the data, but also the anecdotes. I think we need both. I think stories help us understand data, data helps us understand stories. I think we need both. But that is the idea of the book, to help people understand the research and then see it in real life stories and begin to think about what are the things that I need to work on? What are the things that I need to do to become a more effective leader? Now there's a different readership for the book in addition to that, which kind of the title handset which is, you know, the only leader worth following. And if you're somebody that says, Look, I don't even know that I'm interested in leadership as something that I want to do. But I bet you're interested in choosing the right leader to follow. I bet because leaders have a profound impact on our day to day experience they can make life really, really rewarding and fulfilling, even when the work is hard. They can also suck the life out of us. And that's not just the work life, they can suck the whole of life out of us. And so to really help people orient towards how they evaluate the leaders they want to follow, that's another quality, that's another way that this book can be put to use. So the only leaders worth following is about unpacking what we've been talking about what we call the who, not what principle, it details the research on that and then digs deeply into it so people can really understand the truth of that 77% about leadership. Josh: What we're going to do is we're going to make sure to have a link there so that people can check that out on your website. I definitely think that sounds like a very good quality first step towards going down the path of leadership and finding out your who. Who is the leader that you look up to, Tim? Tim: Oh, my goodness. Well, there are a lot of leaders that I have looked up to over the years, and I've been very blessed to, I've been very blessed to be around some really exceptional leaders. One of those leaders is my father. My father, started a business. And I kind of watched him about, you know, one of the great lessons I learned from my father, fell into that category of humility. I would watch him interact with the top people around him, and then I would watch him interact with the cleaning staff, and it was identical. He didn't treat them any differently. And I learned, you know, learned about humility from him. I think probably for the rest of my life I'll be striving to get like halfway on that scale to where my father is. He's definitely significantly more well developed in that arena than I am. I played basketball collegiately and I played for a Hall of Fame coach here in the States named Gene Keady. He was another person who was really sound person, a quality person. And I know perhaps not a lot of folks in Australia will have heard of Gene Keady, but he's a great person to follow. Now, I've got somebody in Australia that well, not technically in Australia, but I'm going to say a name that the business community in Australia is going to be familiar with, who was very, very well known in Australia, and then recently has in the process of leaving his current position that is a bit controversial right now. But I'm going to name out this person because he has been an incredible leader in my life and he is a great example of these two things of being inwardly sound and othes focused. And that is Mike Kane, who is in the process of finishing up his post at Boral. Now, you know, I've read all the things that are in the Australian papers about Mike, and I know Mike personally, and he's been a huge influence in my life. And I'll just say that there is so much more substance than what is reported in the paper. So I'll just, I mean, perhaps the listeners aren't shocked to learn that there's more to what's being written in in a paper whose goal is to sell ads. So I'll say that. But Mike Kane had an incredible run up at the start of his time. I understand that some people watch the stock price have Boral in the last couple of years and they have some questions. And I get that around the strategy side, but as far as somebody who I would personally run through a wall for because he is those two things of been inwardly sound and others focused, Mike Kane is near the top of my list. Even though you’re going to ask me that question. And I realised that there are a variety of opinions about Mike right now flying around in the business community, especially in Sydney. But I will tell you, he is a first-rate leader. Josh: Different leaders for different reasons. Your father is a big figure, you've got Mike Kane there as a business figure as well as then health fitness and recreational stuff. I like that, I didn't know what you're going to say. So I was very impressed with that. Because when you said it earlier, it sounds like ooh, who would be my leader, I don't know Tim: Well, think about that. That's worth thinking about. Josh: I thought dad definitely, Nikola Tesla, not Elon Musk, the car guy. I'm like, no, he helped the world in so many ways with the technologies that he created. And his name wasn't even really mentioned or heard of for another 80, 90 years. And the money that he had, he died in poverty. He wasn't lavish with the money that he got, and he didn't want war. And so you'd go to several countries and give them the same presentation. So he was funded by lots of countries that no one had a different, more unique approach to be able to jump into war. So I thought Nikola Tesla would definitely be up there for me and that's as high level humility. And dad has always been there to teach me very much what you're saying. It doesn't matter who they are in business, everyone's at the same at the end of the day, just blood and bones. And we need to be able to have that knowledge that everyone's here for the same amount of time. We all live the same way, and they be there and everyone has a story and it doesn't matter who you're talking to, you should not talk down. You should make sure you're always there and present to hear what they're all about. Tim: I'll encourage you with this and maybe some folks who are listening, maybe they've done this, they started to do this exercise with us as well, who are the best leaders that you've ever followed? And you begin to think about for many people and family members and coaches and teachers at young ages are folks that especially influences earlier in our careers, as you think about who those people are, and you begin to maybe even make a little list of the whys. Why did that person make it on your list? I'll encourage you to do something that will bless you, the listener, as well as the other person is call them up and tell them, write them a note. Tell them that I was asked this question, and you came to mind and here's why. That kind of stuff in life is priceless. Don't miss that opportunity. You will never be sorry for letting somebody know that they came to mind, that that person came to mind when they were asked who's the best leader you've ever followed? Josh: I love that. That's fantastic. And when I started the podcast many, not nearly two years ago, I thought, who would I like to have on the podcast? And I thought of the people that really changed my mind and changed the way of my thinking. Are you familiar with Bob Berg from the go giver? Tim: I'm not. I'm not. Josh: Bob Berg from The Go Giver. Fantastic book that I read that goes through and describes how to make sure that you're giving more than you're receiving and you're doing the things the way that business should be done. And it's not all just about numbers. And the other one was by a guy named Dr. Larry Little, Tim: You did have him on the show? Josh: I did. I had them both on the show. I reached out to them, and I said you've impacted the way that my life has worked, and the way that I've done business, and I've bought your books many times as gifts for clients because the readings have truly influenced me in the direction that I've gone and I thought I'm going to ask them like they're not gonna say yes, they got better things to do with their time. And they both said, sure, I'd love to be on the show. That was my American accent. And it was fantastic. Tim: I'm not even going to try an Aussie accent because it would be awful. It would be awful. So, you had them on and they both came on and you got to do those interviews. Josh: Both came on both go to do the interviews and very, very blessed to be able to have them on the show and be able to hear one on one what they were all about. And I thought, no way would this Nikola Tesla is going to be harder to say I really like his leadership skills, I have to do some ulterior method. Tim: That would be a creative interviewing process. If you think about what Dr. Little talked about. He talked about servant leadership. And he talked about the question of why are you leading and that leads us right back to that others focused piece that we were talking about earlier. He He's on to onto that part of it that's so very important. So yeah, I'm not as familiar with Bob Berg, but Dr. Little's interview with you, yeah. Josh: If there's anyone out there in podcast land that's keen to hear a bit more information, Tim has been nice enough to give us a link, theonlyleaders.com. If you jump across there, he's got a fantastic opportunity for you guys to have himself and his team deep dive in with 20% off for your digital journey through them. Is there anything else you'd like to go through on that offer that I haven't quite covered off on there? Or do you want to jump into a bit more detail on what they're looking forward to seeing in that? Tim: Yeah, well, you know, in the internet space, you have to be very clear on what the website is, right? So in terms of, you know, you punch it in to the search, you're like, oh, I hope it's available. I hope it's available. So what's really important about what you said is the only leaders, you got to get THE, and so theonlyleaders.com. And you mentioned the 20% off we take leaders on what we call journeys. You can imagine given what we've talked about, I keep talking about how hard and difficult and challenging it is. So we thought, well, let's just call it what it is. It's a journey. And it's challenging. As we take leaders on that, we do have the 20% off there for your listeners. So what they do is they would put in a promo code there. And if you put in the BBF, for the name of your podcast, then that will lock in when we get those digital journeys ready to go. And then also, if you're not interested in buying anything, we certainly want to be of help regardless of whether somebody's buying something. So you go to that same website, you can sign up to get a free copy of our study guide that goes along with the book. I suppose now that I say that then I guess it's only valuable if you buy a copy of the book, but you would also receive other free material that we're putting out as well. So there's opportunity to just sign up to be a part of the email list and get some free information, free content from us that we're producing as well. Josh: Tim, I've loved having you on the show. And is there any other questions you had for me or our listeners, I can only answer for me though. Tim: You can only answer for you. Well, you know, I might just go with a rhetorical question that parrots back with Dr. Little says, and that is if you're a leader, why are you leading? I mean, and that is, and I mean, to me, that's a question to think about. What is the purpose of my leadership? Is it just to enrich myself? Is it just to make money? Is it you know, what is it? Is it just some of those things? And look, there are people who are successful at making money, successful in their businesses without having kind of a profoundly positive answer to that question. However, what I would offer as we close out and think about that question, for all of us to think about, why am I leading, is that if we're not able to get to a spot in our life, where the answer to that question has something to do with others, we will never truly know what our full potential was. And I don't mean that in like an esoteric out in the universe kind of way, I actually mean that at the bottom line. Even at the bottom line, you'll never know what your potential was, so long as you're only in it for yourself, because we don't get that discretionary effort out of people. if we’re there for ourselves, they're well aware of it. No matter what words we use, no matter how we try to cover it up. And so why are you leading? Yes, perhaps there's a fulfillment question that lives within that question. But there's also hey, what's possible? What could you and your family or your organisation, what could you see if the answer to that question was, well, part of the reason why I'm leading is for the sake of others, for the sake of what they get out of being under my leadership. So it's tough to answer those questions honestly, because we want the answers to be really, really nice. And really, really positive. But we have to be honest with ourselves if we're really going to grow and develop. So I put that question, the final question is perhaps not one to answer today, but to sit with maybe for the next couple of weeks. What if you were to take a piece of paper and just put it somewhere where you saw it repeatedly that said, why am I leading? And you put a little energy into thinking about that, and challenge yourself to think about being more inwardly sound and others focused. Josh: That's brilliant. I'll be having a bit of think about it myself. I've got a quote wall that that I have there and that'll be getting added to it so that I can make sure to continue thinking about the who and the why. That's really good. Anyone out there that's been listening, if you have enjoyed this episode, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love, give us some feedback, and stay healthy, stay good. And thank you very much for being on the show. Tim. Tim: Thank you. Really, really great to be here with you.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Josh: So, Shirley, I told you about my favorite restaurant. What is your favorite restaurant?Shirley: Well, my favorite restaurant is a kind of salad and soup restaurant.Josh: Okay, that's my favorite.Shirley: Great! Well, the food is very good but I also like it because the room is nice, it looks on a garden and the food is very cheap.Josh: Wow!Shirley: Yeah.Josh: With a great view of a garden. It seems like it would be expensive.Shirley: Yeah, it does seem like it would be expensive, but it's not. The garden has lots of beautiful flowers but also they grow herbs. So the herbs that they use in the salad are all fresh from the garden. It's delicious.Josh: That sounds really delicious.Shirley: Yeah, it's great. And they make a fantastic soup.Josh: Okay.Shirley: Some cream soups, and also a really nice vegetable soup.Josh: Great! So, is the vegetable soup your favorite dish at the restaurant?Shirley: Mmm, yes. In the wintertime, the minestrone soup is my favorite soup.Josh: I love minestrone soup.Shirley: Yeah. It's excellent. But in the summertime, my favorite soup is cream of potato chilled.Josh: Chilled?Shirley: That means it's served cold.Josh: Okay, that sounds amazing.Shirley: It's really refreshing in the summertime.Josh: What are the prices at the restaurant?Shirley: It is so cheap. It's about nine dollars for a small bowl of soup, a big salad, and a sandwich that usually has some salad and seafood in it.Josh: That's really cheap.Shirley: Yeah.Josh: We should go there.Shirley: Plus, after all that, you get a coffee or herb tea.Josh: Wow, that's great!Shirley: I definitely recommend that you go there some time.Josh: I'll try it out.Shirley: Okay!

Using Strategic Planning to Recession-Proof Your Business With Kathy Bowman Atkins Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land, we’ve got Kathy Bowman Atkins from Lattitude group who's going to be talking today about how to recession proof your business via strategic planning. A lot of people have felt a bit of pressure of recent with some of the different evolutions that have been happening around the globe and pandemics and whatnot. And this is by far one of the most relevant podcasts episodes that you should all be listening to. So, Kathy, tell me, what is the step one, what is step one when it comes to strategic planning, especially in a time when there's 100 other things that you juggling? Kathy: Well, step one for strategic planning, whether it's in crisis time or good times, is to get the leadership on board. A lot of people think you know, it's hired this consultant, use this process, you know, XYZ, you know, elements, cover these things. If you don't have the leadership on board, the owners and so forth, and they're not behind it. I don't care who you hire, how good they are, how good the process is, you have to have the leadership on board. That's step one. And we talk to business owners and leaders about that very thing, Josh, when they talk to us about helping them. We have to get their commitment or it's a no go. Josh: That makes a lot of sense. So you want to obviously make sure that you have the planning and you have the right model there. So when you are bringing that into place for full leadership. If you've got a business where you've been running it for many years, and you think that you're a leader, but you may not notice the signs of micromanagement, and you think you've got a healthy team and a lot of people don't change things because they're not aware that they need to change things. How can you see the telltale signs that maybe you're running, running a business, wearing suspenders and using the fax machine or you’re living in the 1980s, early 1990s? And maybe you need to change the way your mindset is, how can you sort of start to pivot that without destroying the relationships you have in the business? Or the way you're working? Kathy: It's a really great question. And we've done that more than once. And we feel like that that's one of the things that people hire us for. It's not just to pump out a strategic plan is to tell them the hard truth, tell them the things that they need to do to make the progress they need to. So the way we do that is that there's a few ways that we do that. When we begin, we talked to key players in the business, not just the owners, not just what we call the sponsors, the people who have hired us, who've signed on the dotted line, okay? We want to talk to people across the business, okay, at every level in the business. So we conduct interviews with those folks. And we conduct interviews with all of the leaders individually, all the people that are going to be directly involved with the strategic planning process, because the truth of the matter is, no matter how open an environment, how open a culture that a company may have, or may think they have, there are things that the owners and the leaders don't know that people in the organisation can tell them. We're pretty honest brokers. And it's very important to be authentic. So we can develop trust and rapport with folks pretty quickly. And by the time we get ready to even put together the process for that strategic plan, that we have the tools, but there's certain customization depending on the company, we have a pretty good idea of where the big warts are, quite frankly, where the big problems are in the company. And so we go and sit down and talk to people and even leaders and say, Hey, here's some things that we've heard, here's some things that we're going to need to work on or you're going to need to work on to make this work. We're willing to work with you, we can help you, but you have to be willing to do it. So we have to have those honest conversations up front to make that happen. Now, what we have found over time, which is really interesting, Josh, in the early days of doing this, when we would come across that situation, my business partner and I, one of us in Canada that first would look at the other and say well we need to do this, but we're probably going to get fired today, you know, they're probably going to let us go. And it's not happened yet. Because people, for the most part, really appreciate that now you don't walk in there and tell them how lousy they are, etc. Because that's not the case. You know, these people have done a lot right to, you know, to form companies or to become leaders of companies. And so we're telling them in in a way that keeps the whole what they need to do. I mean, we've literally had conversations with business owners who started a business and ran them 20 years and said, if you don't step aside, and let us help your new leadership, you're not going to achieve the things that you say you want to achieve for this company and for your future, etc. And it's happened. So, you know, that's the way we do it. So, most of the time, it happens just from that upfront due diligence that we do and talking to people, Josh, and honestly, but as we get into the process, you know, by that we work with companies, we absolutely develop strong relationships with these folks, and I think that's really important. We really get ingrained in those companies. So we know what's going on. And we have that kind of trust. So that as those things come up, we can apart, you know, deal with them, and talk to them about them. So that's what's really key, in my opinion. Josh: S o you brought up a lot of good points there. For you and any of your listeners out there. A lot of what we do is around trying to find inefficiencies in business. So we do that for allowing them to automate tasks or create procedural documentation that allows them to have systematized tasks that betters their processes. We do it definitely more with a technology twist on it rather than anything else. And we find people that are dead wood in the business, and a lot of businesses big businesses or businesses that have been around for a while people get lazy if they haven't had KPIs to it to adhere to. And you end up having this issue with dead wood. How can you pivot that deadwood or does it come down to sort of a bit of a hard truth? Kathy: Well, there's not a one size fits all answer to that question, Josh. But there are multiple answers and all of which can work. I'm gonna start with the end in mind. And the end in mind is if someone is deadwood, you have to resolve that issue and you have to resolve that issue and keep people home. Okay? There's no benefit to doing that in a way that demeans people, degrades people, etc., etc. So, we take a look at, okay, is it a capability issue? Is it an attitude issue? Is it a fit issue? In other words, that they don't fit where they are? Could they fit somewhere else? And whatever that issue is, we look at what are the answers? Is there a way to help them to change that attitude to find that path? What's in it for them to do that, to make an attitude change? And if none of those things are possible, then it's about sitting down and having the honest conversation And, you know, I find nine times out of ten that people want to have the honest conversation that says, You know what, this is not working out. We don't see a good place for you here, we don't see you being happy here. Okay? Being your you know, your best and highest use, you know, reaching your potential here. And so you know, we think it's you know the right time for us to part ways. We'll help you in any way we can, you know, to transition out of this, but that's the best thing for everybody. And if you do that way, keep people home and treat them as human beings and as people not objects of the business, nine times out of ten, they end up saying you're right. Occasionally they don't but after the fact they do, I mean I say this all the time through the years I have walked plenty of people out the door, unfortunately. And I still get Christmas cards from many of them. I still go to lunch with several of them because it was the best thing for everyone. And that's the end that you want to get to, what's the best solution for everybody. Josh: I completely agree, you should be treating your team like family instead of assets or liabilities. I'm happy enough to say that I have a team of unicorns and it didn't happen easily. But in the latest situation that we've had with the pandemic, we've managed to have had some of those hard conversations around what direction do you see this business going? How do you feel should be going with you? And with the intention of other reducing hours or standing people down? And it was a very, very difficult conversation to have with people that we've been working with for years. And their results in the answers they gave to us brought a tear to my eye, I'm actually getting a bit teary even thinking about it anyway. But they said we want to do anything possible to better the business and to put the business entity advantage even if it means we're working full time, but we're not working for full pay. And one of the employees even said that they're in a position where they don't need the money, particularly, they're happy to work for free until we can get out of this hole. And I thought that's a fantastic team where we were all running in the same direction. We're all pulling in in the same direction, everyone's blowing wind in the sails to get us to the same spot. It made me feel good. And it really came down to the attitude of the team. And I think what you're saying there about that, it's all about shifting attitude and making sure that everyone's goals align with the business goals. So I'd imagine there's a few different bits and pieces that you guys use to sort of test and allow for people's emotions and their characters to come out. So do you use the same sort of tools when trying to align the staff and leaders and everyone's mindset with the same common goals? Kathy: We do. We've used Myers Briggs, we have used this and a couple of others. And it just depends on what the situation is in the company, you know, and what the culture and the nature of the organization is. Finding the right tool. There's two things finding a valid tool, all assessments out there aren't valid, and finding the one that fits the culture, that organisation. And the third one is, you know, being a facilitator or consultant that knows how to debrief that and to help them to use that appropriately. Because that's important too. You just can't do a Myers Briggs and hand the report out to everybody and say, okay, there it is. Josh: What do I do with this? Everyone needs to be sharing their results, they understand the emotions of how to talk to people. There's a book that I read called the five love languages, unless you're really close to the stuff probably not relevant. It still lets you to understand how two different parties are talking and communicating together. And I think that's really important, to make sure that if you're dealing with someone that's talking in a for instance, I'm not detail oriented. If someone says the job is finished, and this is and you've been out to achieve the objectives of what the original goal was set out, that's awesome. If they spent 10 hours doing the doing the spreadsheet and I've got the number out that I wanted at the end, awesome, but I don't need to know every single formula, the pivot tables, and everything else to it to achieve that. But some of the staff love telling me all about it. And so of course, of course I'm going to sit there and make sure that we're all lining in that regard, because you don't want to sort of just offset all their hard work and say, I don't care. Okay, good, I got the number, cool. And then you walk off, it sort of completely deflates them. So it's, I guess, about understanding how to communicate with people. And I guess, again, coming down to attitude. Kathy: It is, and, you know, this really ties into something that you and I talked about. I know that our staffs talked about in booking this, you and I talked about a little bit before this, how that strategic planning ties into this topic. You know, we all should be as business owners and leaders looking to put together teams that have aligned goals and values, correct. I mean, that's what really makes it work. We can think differently, we can process differently. But if we have aligned goals and values, having that kind of diversity of thinking and approaches is really powerful for us. And for a business, it's the same thing. Having a strategic business plan gives us that roadmap for everyone to align around. Okay? And know what they are applying in a you know, their own goals, how that ties to the company's goals, the direction we're heading. And how that helps everybody in the mix. Helps you, helps me, helps the company, the owner, whoever it is, and I. And so that's part of where, you know, strategic planning for business is just as important as having individual goals for all the individuals in the business. And, you know, having the KPIs, the key performance indicators or the metrics to manage too, you know, to see how we're doing. So it's kind of the same concept on a business level. Josh: Okay. So when you say strategic business plan, a lot of people I know will say I've got a business plan or a freak out of it. I know myself, I'm great at making a very simple thing over complicated. When I was younger, many, many years ago, maybe 20 years ago, I was developing something in my bedroom, which allowed me to open and close the bedroom door with a remote control. So I clicked the remote controller unlocks the door, opens the door, let someone in, click another button that closes the door and shuts it and my brother said that would take you 120 to 150 hours to build that. He's an electronic engineer. I said yeah. And he goes how many times could you have got up and open and close the door. Yeah, okay, that's right. I've automated something that doesn't need automating. And that's sort of what my first sort of aha moments with automation. So how do you make sure that you're focusing on the right things, you don't overcomplicate it, I know some people say a business plan to start off with doesn't need to be longer than half a page. But obviously, to really dive into some details, and ours is 16 pages long for the basic business plan and 70 for the longer business plan. But again, as I said, I go to too much detail. Kathy: But that's an excellent question. And this is where a lot of people fall off in a table with regard to strategic planning. You know, the key to strategic planning, we have tools and processes that we use, they're tried and true, and they're good, but they are a framework. What's really important is understanding upfront what the owners want, okay? They put in the sweat, equity, etc. They're here now, they want to get here and based on their business, their culture, okay, their values, what they're trying to accomplish their goals, right? Putting together the plan that's right for them. A lot of times people say, oh, you know, we're going to talk about processes, right? And you're going to bring in a list of processes, you know, 20 processes and try to cram down our throats? No, that's not the right thing to do. We're going to sit down and look at it with you, and you know the business better than we do. But we have a tool to be able to say, what processes should you have? Now, what are the key processes you should have in the business? And do you have them? If you have them, are they working or what needs to improve about them? That's pretty simple. At the end of the day, Josh. Now they're having the right tools to get people to do that. So we're starting with that. So we're looking at things that way. And we have a process that starts up here and says, these are all the things we you know, this big funnel, these are all the things we need to work on. There's processes and their systems, right. And there's some people issues, and there's equipment issues and you know, all kinds of things. And then we start whittling that down through our process that says, what's the most important thing? You know, what are the biggest obstacles? And we look at that through, you know, internal assessments and external assessors. So that all sounds very complicated, you know, but we do that with tools. People do a lot of work up front, so that by the time we walk in, in two days, we come up with a comprehensive strategic plan. And I don't care what size the company is, for a 12-month plan, which is what most of the detailed plans are. Now we look out five years just say Where do you want to be five years for most businesses, so we know what the long haul is, so to speak. But we do a detailed plan for most of the time for 12 months out. And we look at that company and say, you know what, we really don't want there to be more than eight goals for the company for that 12 months, because then we get a flight we have to flush those goals out into who does what by when what role the steps to achieve that. So that gets big enough, correct? Josh: Absolutely. Katy: And the other thing that we do, rather than handing people some big book to put on the shelf to collect dust, because that's what generally happens, we do two things. We give them their plan on one page, okay, and all of the relevant information about that plan that everybody in the company should have and be looking at, and understand it and understand how what they do ties into that. They have one page that they can look at, and it can be their barometer, the rudder, whatever you want to call it, any day, anytime making a decision. And then behind that, we use project management software, we set up a portal for their company, where they manage those goals and action plans. And we meet with them every month. So we insist that if they want to work with us that they have to agree to our change management accountability aspect of this. In other words, we're not going to go through this whole process and put it on the shelf. We're going to have a schedule meeting every month and we're going to look at this plan. We're going to use a signal light approach, what's working, what's not, we're going to make adjustments because I can tell you the minute that he drives on that proverbial plan, something's going to change. And we're going to make adjustments, we're going to look at the financials, and see how that's going and where we need to make adjustments. So we're continually doing that change management. So that's how you whittle it down. That's how you manage it. But that's why you need leadership. As I said, right at the top of the program, if people if the leaders inside the business aren't making sure that everybody knows the strategic plan and monitoring it and executing on it appropriately adjusting it is not part of their job, guess what? It doesn't happen. Josh: So, from what we've been speaking about so far, if I was to sum up in one sentence, a strategic plan is about accountability, timelines, infrastructure and goals, tying them together with small tested improvements, monitoring it over time. What else would you add to that to make that more true? Or how did that sound? Kathy: That’s really good. Would you like to come to work for us? Josh: Hahaha. We are just a small flight away. Yes, we'll jump on and get that happening. That's the elevator pitch, I guess, on the strategic plan. So, that's cool. Okay, so that that makes it very easy to break down. And you did speak quite a bit about tools, and a lot of people that are going to be listening to this, they're gonna be wondering, okay, what tools can we use? So, if you were to pick the top two tools that anyone can jump into right now, to gain more visibility into their business, or to start heading in the right direction, even if that's making up a back of handkerchief example, of a strategic plan, what tools would you say they could jump into and check out? Kathy: Well, you know, the very first thing is to figure out, this isn’t a tool. This is, you know, where's it that you want to take your company? Now, what's your purpose, what is it you want, what's your vision? Where do you want to take it? You have to know where you want to get to, in order to figure out how to get there. So if you are doing the back of the envelope thing, as you mentioned, you don't want to hire someone, you don't want to go through some big process. We have a lot of great processes, but there's one that you can't go wrong with. And that's a SWOT analysis, the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats, okay. It's probably the thing that covers most elements of a business, if you do it well in a single process. Now, we have a lot of other processes that focus on things, but that one is tried and true. And it can cover a lot of ground. Josh: Most people should be pretty familiar with them, if you're not. What are you doing? Get into it! I think this is kind of like a should be a clear cut answer. But what size of businesses should be looking to strategic planning? Should this be something that they're obviously looking at the start before they've even turned over $1 when they're looking to throw it to the boss and say, now I'm going out on my own or is this something that they should be waiting until they've got some structure in place? Kathy: Well, every business even as they're looking to start up, they need a business plan. They need a plan that says, okay, what do I need to start this business in terms of resources? Okay? And to start it up with the resources and get me through the first couple of years. The kind of strategic planning that we do, which is with established companies, we're not really working with startups so much at all, quite frankly, Josh, that's a little more comprehensive. And that can range from having one strategic planning team that has some folks across the business and is pretty comprehensive. Okay. We will get strategies too. Larger companies where we do something with an executive team and then we cascade down through different organisations and they do their own strategic plans to support the company, goals and direction. So it depends. So everybody should be doing some planning. You know, we started this talking about recession proof strategic planning. The thing that is to make you recession proof is to do your planning upfront. It is strategic to have a plan. So that's one thing. Now how strategic you want to be in that planning process is a different matter. And that depends on where you are. So, you know, a good way to think about that and wrapping this up right now we're breaking things down into six months. Okay, module so to speak. Most people don't know what's going to happen. So we got to survive for six months, we have to get through this. Okay? And that's really pretty much a cash and opportunity exercise. It's not very much strategic from the standpoint of what our strategy is, you know, and all this kind of stuff. And so we call that emergent strategic planning. Then there's the next six months, which is resurgence. Okay. So we've survived, we've gotten through this. How do we now start, you know, going back up? What do we bring back? When do we bring it back? And what does it look like? What lessons did we learn from all of this, right? And so we're putting that in a six month chart. And then we're talking about a six-month chunk of convergence planning. What that means is, people are going to start figuring out what the new reality looks like. Or they're going to make their assumptions about what it looks like and we can get more strategic and start looking a little bit further out. And taking advantage of these lessons learned and what the new realities are. Josh: Emergent strategic planning, I guess it's all about when things change. To make sure your emergent emerge from crisis and out to be stronger, would that be fair to say? Kathy: Yes, our mantra to everybody right now. Thank you for reminding me. We're saying to my business, and to every business, you had better come out stronger as people and as a business on the other side of this than you did going in? Josh: Cool. Well, I definitely think this is more relevant now than ever before. And for anyone out there that is listening and thinking, man, this sounds like too much. I've already got too much on my plate. There’s so many government incentives that I'm looking at or new stimulus packages, and I just want to keep myself with a head above water. And there's a place you can go. And Kathy Bowman Atkins from Lattitude Group has a fantastic offer here for one hour consultations. Would you like to tell us a bit more about how that can help small businesses? Kathy: Well, it's interesting, you know, people call us up and they say, Okay, this is where things are now. And I might say, what are the biggest obstacles? You know, top of mind, if we could only cover one thing in this hour? What's the biggest thing that is bothering you that that we could help you resolve? So we start there. Now generally, what happens is we can cover two or three things at an hour, you'd be amazed at how much ground you can cover. If they don't know, they’ll say, you know, I'm just really paralyzed. I don't know what to do. Right, then we start asking them some questions. Yeah, have you availed yourself to all the resources that are out there? Have you looked into them? Do you know what's out there? Okay. Let's make some assumptions about the worst possible case, okay, for the next six months, and that's what we have to look at, what is the absolute metric or two that you have to manage to over the next six months? For some people, it's pretty simple. Cash flow. I have to be able to maintain positive cash flow. Josh: That's mine.] Kathy: And so whatever we have to do, that we can help them to say, okay, in order to accomplish that, what are the steps we have to take? And what metrics do we have to be looking at all the time, because in this case, volume is going to be your leading indicator. In normal times, it isn't always your leading indicator. We're going to wait for the volume to materialize before we make moves like, you know, bringing people back because that we've had to lay off for certain vendors are no different things that we've put on hold. And that's the way we're doing it. So it depends, but those are the kinds of things that you do. So there's all kinds of things that can happen. We know … we need to know how to tap into these resources. Okay, we need to know how to furlough people, or what's the best approach to take. And we can, you know, we can help them with all of that. Josh: Well, anyone that's interested to have a consultation with Kathy, we're going to be putting a link in the description here for the podcast, as well as on the blog. Keep an eye out for that. And I think you're going to find that in one hour, you're going to completely revolutionise the direction of your business. Totally worth your time. And one thing I want to sort of say, in closing to ask you in closing is if there was to be one book they would say is your Bible, so to speak, is going to be the first step towards better leadership and strategic planning. What would be that one book that people should read or one resource that people should be listening to? Whether that be a news outlet or something like that? What should people be tuning into? Kathy: Gosh, there are many Josh, but I will tell you my go to book and it's not a new one. But I think in terms of leadership and self development, which is the key to all of this, it really is the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And that book goes way back, but I'm going to tell you, it's tried and true. And if people will adopt those and make those habits as leaders, it's really significant. Josh: For anyone out there that obviously is listening you can't see next to my bed, but it's sitting next to my bed right now. And, I've picked it up for a second time and rereading through it. So it's definitely worth its weight in gold. And it's a reasonably sized book. So that's saying a lot, it worth its weight in gold. It is. That's right. Well, Kathy, it's been lovely having you on the show. And is there anything else that you would like to cover off on before we pathways? Kathy: The only thing that I would say is, you know, even as a company that prides itself, and myself on being, you know, a strategic planning guru and all that kind of thing and you know, a purist when it comes to strategic planning. And I think all the businesses have to think about this no matter what business they're in that may be passionate for you. Right now you have to think about what's realistic and what can really help people. So you know, we're doing these six months module strategic planning things in a day or you know, prep for a week and then go in for a day at the end day and making them very reasonably priced. And we've never been a company that our value proposition was priced. We're not, you know the low cost option. But you know, you've got to remember where people are right now. And I think that's key for business leaders and owners right now. Josh: I completely agree. We've released a new product range that we're calling the dollar IT club which is focusing heavily on helping businesses out in the time of crisis, not putting more pressure on a saw that they've already got there. And I think that building and nurturing that relationship at the start will build a bigger and better things and show your worth. Kathy: Exactly! Josh: If anyone has enjoyed this episode. Make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love. Give us some feedback. We'll put all Kathy's details here in the in the episode so you can get in contact with her, and stay healthy and stay good. Kathy: Thank you so much, Josh.

Deeper Dive Theme: JWald, Dawn and Josh ask why is the church asleep, are there subjects he's afraid of preaching on and how to overcome fear of God. We also find out why it took him so long to drink water during his sermon. Episode Title: Better Days Hosts: JWald & Dawn Williams Guest: Joshua Callwood Notes: http://bible.com/events/29096095 Subscribe for YouTube Videos:http://www.youtube.com/c/PlantationSDAChurchTV Current Event RoundTable: What's Southern going to be like and what are you changing your major to? Dawn and JWald's Deeper Dive Questions to Josh: What inspired you to come up with the sermon? Who can cure racism? What did you mean when you said the church is asleep? Why are Christian pastors avoiding tough subjects and warning church  members that the time is short? After you become a pastor, are there messages and topics you'll avoid preaching about? Did you forget to drink your water during the sermon? What was the spiritual mask you were referring to? How would you help someone who fears God? Why does negative have no impact on your when you're bearing fruit? What are your future goals? Date: August 8, 2020 Tags: #psdapodcast #psdatv #signs #gospel #warnings #prophecy  #Jesus #answers #answer #fire #savior #heaven #EndTimes #LastDays For more information on Plantation SDA Church, please visit us at http://www.plantationsda.tv.   Church Copyright License (CCLI) License Number: 1659090   CCLI Stream License License Number: CSPL079645 Support the show: https://adventistgiving.org/#/org/ANTBMV/envelope/start See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

Deeper Dive Theme: JWald, Dawn and Josh ask why is the church asleep, are there subjects he's afraid of preaching on and how to overcome fear of God. We also find out why it took him so long to drink water during his sermon. Episode Title: Better Days Hosts: JWald & Dawn Williams Guest: Joshua Callwood Notes: http://bible.com/events/29096095 Subscribe for YouTube Videos:http://www.youtube.com/c/PlantationSDAChurchTV Current Event RoundTable: What's Southern going to be like and what are you changing your major to? Dawn and JWald's Deeper Dive Questions to Josh: What inspired you to come up with the sermon? Who can cure racism? What did you mean when you said the church is asleep? Why are Christian pastors avoiding tough subjects and warning church  members that the time is short? After you become a pastor, are there messages and topics you'll avoid preaching about? Did you forget to drink your water during the sermon? What was the spiritual mask you were referring to? How would you help someone who fears God? Why does negative have no impact on your when you're bearing fruit? What are your future goals? Date: August 8, 2020 Tags: #psdapodcast #psdatv #signs #gospel #warnings #prophecy  #Jesus #answers #answer #fire #savior #heaven #EndTimes #LastDays For more information on Plantation SDA Church, please visit us at http://www.plantationsda.tv.   Church Copyright License (CCLI) License Number: 1659090   CCLI Stream License License Number: CSPL079645 Support the show: https://adventistgiving.org/#/org/ANTBMV/envelope/start See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

How to Restructure Your Business With Tim Wilshire Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. We've got an awesome guest for you, we've got Tim Wilshire here, who is a networking number cruncher who podcasts people's perspectives. We've got him on to talk about how to restructure your business and when the right time is to do that. So Tim, first question, how do you know when to do that? I know you've come across businesses that are started as sole traders and other businesses are looking for asset separation and all sorts of stuff. How do you know when the right time is? Tim: Okay. Thanks very much, Joshua and hello listeners. But as far as restructuring is concerned, obviously, one thing that I've done plenty of over the last 20 years at my business is restructuring our clients from one structure to another. I guess, like a lot of the answers to questions these days, the answer is, it depends. Okay? You're probably hearing that quite a lot, this is the new 2020 thing, it depends. So it depends on what the different situation is. So if they're in the wrong structure to begin with, and it's not expensive to change them into the correct structure, that's usually a good time to restructure. So let's say they're a sole trader, let's say they've been going in business for a very short space of time and income is starting to come in the door, something that may potentially sell one day, then you can no longer be a sole trader anymore. It doesn't make sense to stay being a sole trader because number one, you're not protecting your assets. If you've got assets in your own personal name, all of a sudden those assets are at risk and the more at risk, the more risky behaviour that you're doing, the more at risk those assets are when you're a sole trader, so that's definitely a time to look at structures. If you're not out of the sole trader structure, get out of that particular structure. And there are two alternatives that we sort of look at, whatever the structuring is, do you want to try it as a company or do you want to trade as a trading trust? Or a combination of both types of structure as well. So that's one, I guess, time where it's quite common when it comes to restructuring. Another time might be, okay, I'm in the trading trust at the moment, but I'm basically making too much money and it's no longer viable, unless I've got a company structure. A company structure meaning, I can type my money and I can grow the business. So, a trading trust structure may no longer be applicable to those circumstances because, selling the business because you have less options. If you're in a company structure, you've got more options, easier ways to add and subtract business partners, shareholders, et cetera. If it's a trading trust, usually good for a smaller operation, up to a couple hundred thousand dollars of profit. Once you get beyond that, a company is certainly worth considering. So that's another time to consider, okay, what's it going to cost to restructure from that structure to that? What are all the processes that I need to do? It doesn't make sense to do that. So that's probably the two main ones you're sort of looking at changing structure because of the circumstances, the current structure don't fit what you're currently doing, and your medium to long term objective. Josh: And when you say trading trust, a discretionary trust and trading trust are the same thing? Tim: Yep, yes, exactly. Josh: Cool. So, you then have cascading setups where you have trusts that own companies, which I think you touched on a little bit there. And then you have companies that are sitting by themself and then you have some people that have multiple companies and asset companies, asset protection. Why would you have that? Tim: The larger you get us as an operation, the more it makes sense to. I'm not saying complicate things, but the more it makes sense to just do things that are going to protect yourself in the best way, shape or form. What you do see from time to time, not for every client, obviously, but once the clients get big enough, they might have one entity that's the training entity and then they might have another entity that basically looks after all the assets. Those items also, you might be paying staff. How do you pay staff in the most tax effective manner? And why would you do it, not in the trading company? Separation, if you're big enough, certainly justifiable. You just got everything in one trading company basket and you're growing and growing and growing, to me, you need to review that structure and you need to say, okay, well, what can we do to better utilise what's going on there? So certainly if you've got clients that are big enough that are turning over more than a couple of million dollars a year, really need to review their structures and say, okay, well, are we in the right sort of structure? Is there something going on that we can do a bit more separation? Can we protect our assets better than what they are? The moment it's all in one basket, and that company goes down, then what? What's the plan of attack if that were to happen? If you've got another company over here doing something, important stuff, whatever, you might be able to drop one or the other. So it just gives you a few more options. Yes, it's more of a cost. Yes, it's more of an administration to be able to manage more than one, but at least you're doing things. Separating and separating the risks. Josh: Okay. And you've talked about going forward, bigger, better, or potentially more complication and more administrative overhead. Is there any times that you would be pulling that back in? Going from a company structure and then going back to a sole trader or something like that. Tim: You never go back to a sole trader, unless you're not really running a business anymore. But you may sort of downsize your operations in it, if you've got too many different structures. And I'm thinking of a client right now who had way too many different things going on, different trusts. Once you stop using that particular trust, you can close it down, sort of get rid of it. So obviously if it's not getting used, get rid of it. You should be able to probably get rid of the different things that aren't getting used properly. Obviously if your sales are coming down, you're sort of downsizing the business, getting rid of staff for whatever reason, because you're downsizing the business. And then do you need that if there's no staff? I mean, all of a sudden you don't necessarily need that. Josh: Who opens the conversation to the structure? Is this something that people should be already aware of themself, where they're talking to their accountant about it, or does the accountant say, "Hey, look, you've turned over a million dollars as a sole trader, something's not adding up here. Let's look to restructure this." Or is this something that they sort of need to jump on their own steam? Or maybe they're listening to the podcast to work out the answer. But who should be opening up that conversation? Tim: I think us, as accountants and advisors, should be opening up that conversation with our clients. We've got to be proactive, we've got to see where the opportunities exist for those clients to get things right. And we've got to take advantage of those opportunities. So get the clients to think that they need to take advantage to get those opportunities. Josh: For us, I started off as the transitioning periods, as you've said, is pretty much what we did. So when everyone was 14 and nine months old and they were off getting their McDonald's job, I was getting my tax file number and registering my first ABN number. So as a sole trader, I started off just on 15 and continued through as a sole trader for a few years until I had the trust and then the company trusts and then the company trusts and then another company, to have asset protection. And then another company again, which was around some of the different grants and advantages that you can have that are pushed out to companies that are not trading as a trust. You can optimise your tax with multiple businesses and structures, but what would be the reason you'd want to have more than one company? If not for asset protection or a government grant or something like that. Tim: Why would you have more than one? Obviously, if you've got more than one business operation actually going, you want to separate them in different trading locations. There might be one location here, there might be one location there, it doesn't always make sense to put them in the same envy. That way, if things can be sold separately, you want to be able to treat them separately. Every different division of the business, you probably should have it in its own entity. And you should try to steer away from grouping them together as well. The reason you don't want to group them together is, it's definitely more messy when it comes to returning your tax. Also, if you've tried to group GST, that's messy. And also if you're grouping them, then you're losing out on some benefits sometimes as well. A good example is the government's recent cash flow boost. If you've got just one company, then you're only going to get one lot of cashflow boosts. Whereas if you've got two companies, you're going to get more benefits rather than just one. Josh: Fair enough. And you did touch on something there about if it's being sold. So when it comes down to exit strategies, if people are looking to sell their business, when's the right time to restructure. When is the right time? You don't want it to look like you've cooked the books or changed the books around or done something funky. You want to make sure there's some historical evidence there that the business is profitable, that everything is going as you would expect it to be. When is the right time to restructure if you are looking towards an exit? Tim: You don't necessarily want to restructure until it's no longer useful. So it doesn't make sense to restructure too soon. So make sure you get to what you're trying to do before you make that choice cutting these off. Josh: So, the main reasons you'd restructure is risk mitigation, tax optimization, and to allow for things to be sold off more easily or divided out. Is that right? Tim: Yeah, I guess all the reasons that I've sort of gone through. Growing, make sure you're structuring correctly, protecting your assets. You need to minimise tax, exactly what you said. And when it comes to the next step, you get to another step, keep reviewing. What's the benefit of bringing in another entity? And everything else that we've sort of discussed there as well. Are we running more than one business operation and can we separate them out? I see clients that shove three different car washes into one entity. They're all at different locations, it doesn't make sense. Josh: I'm going to say something that I think a lot of people, maybe even yourself, are going to disagree with. Companies are generally pretty straightforward to set it up. There's not too many things you can stuff up. If there's one company and then there's another company, the company as the Pty LTD, decides the division of shares and the amount of directors, et cetera, et cetera. The actual company itself, is a reasonably straightforward container. Tim: Well, I guess it's very easy to set companies up, yes. Making sure that it's set up right still requires a bit of skill. Who are the shareholders? The shareholders are a very important part of the company and how those shares are owned are very, very important. Putting mum and dad as a shareholder is not always the best way to do it. So is setting up a trust to own the shares, a better option? That's usually what we'd recommend. We'd say, look, you should want more flexibility. It's not owned by you as an individual, it's in the trust. Then we're talking asset protection 101, as far as making sure that things are done right. Josh: When it comes down to a trust though, it seems like there's a bit more of a grey area than a company. It seems that whenever I've gone to a bank or any lending Institute, they hear that you're running under a trust, they seem to think there's more complication. How come trusts inherently appear to be more complicated than a company? Tim: I mean, with trusts, once you sort of whirl into it, it's probably not as common. To some, it may not be as complicated as what you may think. So obviously it's a great structure. We're talking about protecting assets, we're talking about planning the long term beneficiaries, kids, children, that all make sense to find out about what all the particular roles are. You just need to know what those roles actually are in a trust, and a lot of people don't know about that unless they read it. So once there's a bit of understanding, then you say, well, this is not as bad as what we thought. But again, it's complicated because it's obviously different to that of an individual sole trader, different to a partnership, different to a company. So I guess that's the stigma behind it, that it is more complicated. Just requires a bit of understanding in order to make it not feel as complicated as what its outward appearances would suggest. Josh: Were they more open to abuse in the past? Or has that been sort of tightened down a bit? Tim: Self-assessment is obviously huge. So, there's a lot of trust given to people to do the right thing. And when it comes to trust, there's no exception. So just because you set up a trust, doesn't mean you're going to get an audit or anything like that. Obviously, the audits flags are going to arise if things just don't match up or add up when the ATO are looking at the back system. The government from time to time, have said they don't want trusts, but they've never done anything about that. The labour government, before the last election, tried to make some fairly drastic changes. I guess that's where we are with that at the moment. It's not like it hasn't flown under the radar, but they haven't done anything about it. Josh: What would be the advantages to not having the structure, where you have a company and then a trust and instead, you're just running solely as a company? Tim: You're talking about the shareholder situation and also the difference between having a trust as a shareholder and having an individual as a shareholder. So, the biggest issue with having an individual as a shareholder is, company makes money, makes a lot of money, it pays all its tax, there's only one person that can actually end up with that dividend. If they want to declare a dividend or get forced to declare a dividend in some cases, then that goes to one person's particular taxable income. And that could really jump their income quite high, depending on when and how they have to deal with that situation and the profit and all that sort of stuff. Whereas a trust, at least you got more flexibility. You've got the flexibility to look at the rest of the family group. Can we allocate that dividend to somebody who's on a lower tax income? It makes sense. Three or $400 you spend extra to set up a trust. It's worth it because, yes, you might have to do some dividends and you might have to split that and do another tax return but at the end of the day, it will more than pay for itself. Josh: So if I was to be a single bachelor or bachelorette and have no one that I can distribute anything to, have no business partners, I own 100% of the shares, still having it through a discretionary trust, would still put an extra level of protection there. Tim: It does protect the amount of assets that are attributed to yourself because it's a trust that owns the company. That means that, that's not a personal asset that belongs to you. Whereas if you were the only shareholder, whatever the equity in that company, is effectively your asset. If the trust has that there, then if it's not your personal asset, so it usually can be helpful in things like bankruptcy. Josh: Okay, cool. Well, I think anyone out there that's still scratching their head and has a bit of confusion, definitely make sure to contact Tim Wilshire. He'll be able to bring some clarity and hopefully leave you with the aha moments on how things should be set up. If you want more information or want to hear more about what Tim's doing there, jump onto his podcast from the Valley. We're going to chuck some links in there so that you can check out the website, check out his podcasts and find out what you're doing wrong and how to restructure your business. Tim: Appreciate you doing this, Josh. There's something I just wanted to finish off with. In 2020, and as it was in 2014 or 2015, if you're going into business with somebody else, set it up as a company. Yes, the shares held 50/50 by different trusts or what have you, but if you go into business with somebody else, make sure it's a company. It just allows a lot more flexibility, allows a lot more growth. It sort of ticks off all the common goals that two partners going into business should be looking at when they go into business together. Josh: If you were having a Pty or LTD and you had a couple of business owners, is there a restriction or any complication if you had one of those business owners that were not from Australia? Tim: We have clients where company's are wholly owned by overseas companies, it's always possible. What's required is, the operation to be here at the central management. So the central management being in Australia, one of the directors must be an Australian resident. That's the requirement. The shares can be owned 100% by overseas entities, or 50/50 here. Josh: That's good to know. Hopefully anyone out there that is thinking about their structure, has had that aha moment and is thinking a little bit more about it, how to set it up properly and yeah, jump down to you guys to get it all sorted. Tim: Thank you very much. Josh: Cool. Well, anyone out there in podcast land, if you've enjoyed this, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay healthy. Stay good in this COVID climate.

Niching Your Business With Kirsty-Lee Roberts Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. I've got Kirsty-Lee here and she's going to be talking to us about niching and the current position of Australia's financials. So Kirsty-Lee, tell me, what drove you to niche into the trade and construction industry. Learn more about business niching at dorksdelivered.com.au Kirsty-Lee: Hi, so I took on a business coach and it was an online program, and in there they had discussed a lot about how, if your message is targeted towards every business, you'll likely not to be speaking to any of them. They're not really going to go ahead with your services because you're very generic. So I had decided to test out my message being focused towards building and construction, because that's where my background comes from and I'm very passionate about it, and it also means that a lot of my clients are all kind of similar. They're all in the building construction trades, sole trader area. Josh: Cool. We see it all the time. Definitely have the sniper approach, not the shotgun approach. And we hear it spoken about a lot and a lot of us hear, "Oh, we got to do this. We got to do this." And then we don't, or we think we will always try to, and then we just fall back. But one of the big things that I found is when niching, it's not about turning away business, would you agree? You'd still work with other businesses? Kirsty-Lee: I do have quite a lot of clients that are outside building and construction. I just feel like building and construction is, I guess, where I'm meant to be, that's where I have the most knowledge. But I do take on, say, restaurants, mechanics, they're quite similar to building and construction anyway, makeup, artists, things like that. But it's just something that I just feel really passionate about, and I know that those building and construction and trade space businesses really need that help, so if I can provide that specialist help to them, I can help them overcome the problems that I've seen in many businesses that are quite similar. Josh: A lot of businesses, they do the voodoo that they do well, but not everyone's a bookkeeper, not everyone's an accountant, not everyone's an IT person. You can't wear all the hats, so it's good to get to nice and then you know any of the certain products and programs that they might use, like, I'm sure you've come across simPRO and things like that. It's good to know how the data is being looked at and how they would like the reporting done. I find when you're niching, it's about getting your message clear on your website and all your marketing so that the businesses that you're talking to go, "Okay, you are the right person for me." And it makes it very difficult for them to compare apples with apples because there's apples and oranges, there's someone that does everything, which means they probably do nothing well. And there's someone that does something very, very well. Would you say that your experience has been the same? Kirsty-Lee: Yeah, most definitely. So the differences between, say, restaurant to building and construction is restaurants are very hard to cashflow forecast because their sales are the sales that they get on the day. So it's very hard to predict, I guess, what their sales are going to be the next day or in a week's time, in a month's time, whereas building and construction, a lot of the work will tend to go over a longer period of time, smaller operators might have jobs for a day or two. Large operators might have jobs that go for 12 months. So with those larger jobs, you've got your progress claims, you've done your quote, so you kind of know what's involved. You can kind of forecast for the next 6 to 12 months of funding, or not so much what funding, but what monies they're going to have coming in from clients, what expenses they're going to have, because they've quoted all those works. Josh: That makes perfect sense. And people think a lot of the time, when you niche, people think, "Oh, it means you're just good at one thing," but I like to liken it to, I guess, a doctor. You go to see your GP and your GP will talk to you about any of the different elements that you have. But if you went to see a specialist, whether that'd be a dermatologist or a gynecologist or any of the other ologists, if you went and saw one of them, you would know that, they've at least studied the same things that your normal GP has and then they've just specialised further, so they're as good as someone that can manage any and all the books as well as being better in a certain area. Would that be fair to say? Kirsty-Lee: Yes, most definitely. I went into a building and construction business a couple of years ago and they were focusing on manufacturing at the time and they had just started going into installation of a particular product. And I remember I was there for maybe three or four hours, and I had said, "Can I have a look at your copy of your last BAS? I just want to see what you were claiming on your BAS kind of thing." And then the minute I picked it up and I went, "You're not claiming fuel tax credits." And they're like, "Oh, what is that? Are we entitled to that?" And I'm like, "Yeah, you've got machinery on site. You should be able to claim for your fuel tax credits for what you're using the machines for." And that they hadn't been claiming it about, I think it was about two years, the period that they could have claimed for. And that was worth over $40,000. Kirsty-Lee: So if you're going with somebody that is maybe not experienced in the field, you could be missing those little things. It would be quite similar to me going somewhere that makes wine, I would have no idea about wine tax credits, and I wouldn't pretend to know. I can research it and find out the information, that kind of thing, but if I was looking after a wine business, that could be potentially something that I missed. Josh: Yep. That makes perfect sense, and knowing those little niche things can, as you said then, it could be a world of different. 40 grand, that's a lot of money and that's something I think a lot of people should be considering. People build these awesome relationships with businesses, and one of the things that we we strive on is we tell any business that works with us. We say, "Don't just take our word for it. Go and take advice. Go and get an audit or an IT audit or a security audit or take advice from other IT companies, and bring it back to us or sit down with us at the table and we'll talk about what their findings were," because we know a lot about technology, but as you've just pointed out, there could be certain things or certain parts that we go, "Okay, we've missed that because there's some very specific pieces of software that would be great for their industry." And everyone grows by doing that. Josh: And that's something, I guess, is good for any business too, is just to get a second opinion. We ask our clients to do it, and we think everyone should be doing that just to make sure that they can see what they're doing and what they're doing is right. As opposed to continuing to do what they've been doing and not wanting to change. And in changing this company, you're talking about, saved 40 grand. That's a decent whack of money by having someone else's eyes go over their books. Kirsty-Lee: Yeah. Most definitely. It's something that if I come across something in a client's books, I might say to the accountant, "Hey, what do you think of this? Or I'm thinking we do something like this regarding this particular issue. What are your thoughts?" Just to run it past them, because when it comes to bookkeeping, I'm not the only person that has to look at your books. You've got the business owner, but then you've also got the accountant at the end of the financial year. So whatever I do affects both of those people so I need to make sure that both parties are going to be happy with the work that I've done. Josh: Yep. You're kind of the middle man where you need to be able to represent the information, and I'm sure some of the stuff that you get given is chicken scratch and you need to polish it off and make it look amazing. Kirsty-Lee: There's a lot of shoe boxes with receipts that might be faded or barely readable. Josh: Receipt Bank. How cool is that? I'll be the first to say, when I started up my first entity, which was just myself as a sole trader, this is going back 17 years now, I was doing everything myself and keeping care of everything myself and I read multiple books on making sure I was doing everything right with the GST and then I got to 13 years ago where I then set it up with a trust, the company, and I went, "Okay, this is getting way too confusing." But I was too scared to submit it myself because I don't want to stuff up, so I just didn't for two years. End result, I was losing sleep and freaking out. I'm going, "I'm going to have the government knock on my door. They're going to find me. I'm going to be stuffed." I had QuickBooks, but I had done no BAS lodgements and it was shoe box accounting, absolutely. It was terrible. Josh: I went and spoke to a bookkeeper and she said, "Don't worry about it, calm down. It's not that big of a deal. Just go through it and we'll get it sorted." It cost a few hundred dollars. They went through... And again, just the timelines on money positions, this is now 11 years ago. It costs a few hundred dollars. So it'd be a lot more now, but cost a few hundred dollars. They went through and said, okay, "Everything's sweet, it's all been submitted." I went, "Oh my goodness, the stress is gone." And that's what it's about, I guess, removing the business owner from the equations of things that they're not that great at, and putting people like yourself in their shoes, where they're able to use your knowledge and use them to the advantage, get $40,000 worth of savings, and know that they're in safe hands. Kirsty-Lee: And it's even something like the ATO. I still get nervous when I call the ATO and that's what I do on a daily basis. So as a business owner, if you're worried that you haven't got your BASes submitted and you haven't quite found a bookkeeper, accountant yet, give the ATO call and explain your situation, and then more than likely going to give you an extension to be able to get everything organised and bring everything to date. Because they're not out there to get the people that are trying to do the right thing or trying to bring their books up to date. It's those people that are deliberately not submitting it. That's the people that they want to go after and that they want to get. Josh: I'd liken that to back at school. One of the things that I wish that I did, although I do have the facade of someone that's an extrovert now, I can promise you at school I was definitely not. And one of the things I always wish that I did was ask more questions in class instead of sitting there feeling stupid. I never called the ATO in the two years that I hadn't done anything, so I'm like, "I don't want to tell them, because I don't want to get in trouble, because I don't know what I don't know and I don't want them to know that I don't know what I'm doing and then they'll be like, 'Oh, now you're going to be audited. Now you've told us.' And I'm like, 'Oh, so don't tell them.'" And then I was just freaking out more and more. Josh: As I've found out more recently, the ATO are there to help you, as you said, not there to hinder you. They want to work with you, and that was great advice. Kirsty-Lee: It's always one of those things that you get clients coming to you and they're freaking out and they go, "I haven't submitted a BAS in two years," and it's like, "Okay, one step at a time. I'm going to contact the ATO. I'm going to get that extension just so you can sleep a bit easier." And there's a very real possibility that once you submit a BAS, you're probably going to get a fine. So you just prepare them for that and go, "Oh, they'll probably send me a fine." I think the last one I saw was like $440 for not submitting on time. But then I've had a number of clients that we've submitted late or we've had to call up to get an extension for reasons outside their control and they haven't received a fine. So it's just one of those things that I think you've probably got to be a little bit unlucky for the ATO to give you a fine. If it's your first occurrence, they're probably not going to fine you. You're probably not going to have an audit. But that being said, the ATO might one day just start auditing everyone. We have no idea. Josh: Yeah, it's up to them. But I have found overall my dealings have been pretty good. I can't complain too much. They've been very lenient when I had some financial stress due to a breakup. I had expressed my concerns with them. They came to the party quite well. So I was happy with that and that was just one less stress at an already tense time. Getting to the point of you niched your business, and now we've gone into a spot where with the current pandemic and health of Australia and on a larger scale, the world, we've got businesses that are either booming or busting. And one of the patterns that I have seen is that some people have niched, but they've done it in a way that has resulted in them having all of their income gone because all their eggs are in one basket. And there's obviously good ways and bad ways to niche, and you're dealing with a single category of business, and I'd imagine when they go gang busters, you would be riding the wave, and then when they're not, you'd be feeling that pain as well. Have you noticed any of those ups and downs at this stage? Kirsty-Lee: I'm very lucky that the way that I've niched, it's a larger range of businesses. I haven't just niched to one particular area. I'm not a bookkeeper just for shop fitters. My range of niche is quite broad, so I think for somebody that has niched to those shop fitters, it would be very hard because nobody is fitting out shops at the moment. So I think there is a way that you can niche and do it successfully to your target market that isn't going to hurt you in a downtown. Say for me, a downturn would hurt me if building and construction stopped. And we're very lucky at the moment that building and construction is still at this essential service during these times. Josh: Yeah. Niching, I think, is sometimes as an example of saying before, don't be the keeper just for dermatologists. If you're the bookkeeper just for dermatologists, you're going to be in strife for it. If you're the bookkeeper for people that are just doing hair and makeup, can say straightaway, that industry is not going very well at the moment. It's about diversifying, but also niching, making sure that you're not pushing yourself into a box too much, your services and skills going in the right direction, but you're not so directed you're only talking to a single person with a single skill set. You're able to still broadly work with anyone in the construction industry, which is really cool. Kirsty-Lee: And I'm very lucky too, at this time, that I have clients outside building and construction. I have a couple of restaurant clients who I was a bit concerned when the shutdowns happened and a lot of them have been thriving because of the takeaway side of things has gone up, so they're actually turning over more than I did before. Everyone's stuck at home, ordering food out. Josh: What do you think is going to happen to the commercial real estate and businesses? When they've made that decision to pivot from being a sit down restaurant, and I've seen businesses in Tenerife and all around Brisbane that have been higher class, nice restaurants, running an upper class business, and then they've gone to doing takeaway and they've still kept some of that class there and things like what you're saying right now, they're making more money now. It would be very difficult, I think, for them to go, "Okay, economically, it's not as viable to reopen the restaurant." It has a bigger footprint. It has more insurances and they're then bringing in less money from it. Do you think businesses will change their mindsets and that this will be a big turning point or big aha moment for a lot of businesses? Kirsty-Lee: Not necessarily. Say those larger prestige restaurants that people are ordering from, they got their names from being this magnificent restaurant that you go to and you have this wonderful sit down dinner. If they went to just takeaway, they could be compromising the quality of the food, the vibe that you get from going there, so they've losing all that. But I feel like some other businesses that may be office based businesses, they might choose to have more flexible working arrangements going forward because during these times we've proven that it can work. So provided the productivity's there, there should be no reason why businesses aren't able to offer those options. Josh: I completely agree. And over the last 13 years I've grown from a garage business, then we got a storefront and we thought this is great, and then we moved into Brisbane, and we thought this is fantastic. And we did all the, I guess, in quotation marks, "traditional steps" for a business to grow. And then I went, "What am I doing? Why am I driving into business? Why am I getting all the staff to come into the same central spot, deal with traffic, deal with toll roads and parking and all the other stuff that comes with it, to sit down and then connect into other people's systems?" So it was back in 2014 that we started a remote workforce, and that worked out to be good and bad. When 2016 came around that I decided, well I didn't decide, I guess, I found that we had the systems in place to be able to monitor the KPIs and make sure that we're able to see what people were doing, and the KPIs change and adjust over time as well. It's not like they just stay the same. Josh: If you, for instance, were looking at what a mechanic was able to do, and how many cars they're able to service when they're working from a shop, and then you moved into becoming a mobile mechanic, obviously the number's going to be very different. And that's the same transition, when people start working from their homes, it's not going to be as... You're not going to be able to use the same KPIs and the monitoring and things, and you really don't want to micromanage either. You want to make sure everyone's still has that same ability to continue to work. And it's not for everyone. I've had staff that can't work remotely and they've told me, they said, "Look, I know I'm not as productive when I work remotely." Josh: And we sat down and tried to work out how to do that. But I still think any which way we look at it, it took two years for us to find the sweet spot, and we have an environment now where they can work from home or they can work remotely or whatever they want to do. Overall, we'll see massive shifts and the software to support these new ways of business working will evolve and we'll see more abilities for people to have that monitoring, create those KPIs and make sure that all the businesses and strive with a significantly smaller carbon footprint, which can only be a good thing. For you, do you go on site as well as do things remotely? Kirsty-Lee: A lot of my work is done remotely. I do meet with clients to discuss their financials. Usually one or two days a week I'll try and get out there and see as many them as I can. I don't really have any that need me to work in from their offices, which is very lucky because we've put those systems in place so that they can work anywhere, I can work anywhere kind of thing. So I'm very lucky that I do get to work from home, but even back in the day, when I had an office job, I hated going in there because people would be talking and they would distract you, I'm very much like, "Just leave me alone so I can get my job done." Josh: Yep. I'm the same. I find the most productive time slot for me is between 3:30 to nine o'clock in the morning. Kirsty-Lee: 3:30, what are you doing at 3:30? Josh: No rest for the wicked. 3:30 to nine o'clock. Very few businesses are up. Very few people are distracting me and I'm able to just get heaps of work done without phone calls, telemarketers, emails going backwards and forwards, any projects and bits and pieces that need to have any loose ends tied off on, I can get finished. In answer of your question, I've got a YouTube video called The Mirror Mindset, and it's all around the person that you are inside and making sure that when you see that person in the mirror, then they match up, but most of the time they don't. I also go through some the eating and health habits that I changed, and I have very little sleep now compared to what I used to and still seem to work on a high level of efficiency, which I can record through all the different remote monitoring and the KPI tools that we've got implemented. Is there anything else that you'd like to go through that you think would be really great take homes? Kirsty-Lee: Yeah, don't leave your ATO issues. Definitely get them sorted because you will sleep much better once you've got them sorted and you're not worrying about the ATO being on your back. Josh: Cool. I completely agree. And I know the stress and if anyone that is listening out there is looking for a second opinion on their books, it'd be very, very good for you to jump across to kraccounts.com.au, we'll put a link here for you guys to check it out. Speak to Kirsty-Lee and see what she can do for you guys. '. Kirsty-Lee: Thanks for having me. Josh: No worries. I hope you've enjoyed this, and if anyone has any comments or feedback, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love and give us some feedback and everyone stay out there, stay good, and stay healthy.  

Forecasting Your Business Numbers with Leschen Smaller Josh: Good day everyone out there in Podcast Land. We've got Leschen here from Element Business and Accounting Solutions and she's going to be going through talking about some things that are on everyone's mind, which is forecasting with your numbers. What are you doing in your business? How come so many businesses have collapsed? Where have they gone? Why didn't they save for a rainy day? Learn more about your business numbers at dorksdelivered.com.au Josh: So I guess, I want to ask you a quick question and that is, what would you say is the benchmark number? How do you work out how much is the right number? Or how do you work out your financial projections and budgeting? And I know I've asked you a mouth, which you can answer in an elevator pitch, but tell me a bit about the voodoo that you do and how you can help. Leschen: Well thanks for that, firstly. We operate on a 13-week cash flow and getting those projections for when your cash is coming in and when your cash is going out, it's certainly really important and it's been highlighted through this whole COVID crisis thing. So normally businesses might save a little bit for a rainy day. I think we were talking about that before. You might have six months' worth of working capital to see you through, but this crisis came out of nowhere and I think people have forgotten what it's like and they have forgotten that cash is king. So they need to go back to the planning. And the easiest way to get your breakeven is just to average your monthly expenses for the year and that should give you your average balance that you should have per month. |And you might have three months capital up your sleeve or six months. Six months is actually a luxury, most people can cope with three. Josh: So, that would be a little bit industry-specific depending on what you're doing. Our listeners can be anyone from doing yard maintenance stuff to hairdressers and people running a multimillion-dollar fortune 500 company. So what would you say is a benchmark if you don't know what your expenses are? What should you save to start up a business to be able to make sure that you're not going to collapse, I guess or what would you use as your safety net if you can't have that safety net? So to speak. Leschen: People say that expenses are unknown but they're not. You know if you're a gardener, you're going to need fuel. You know how much it is going to be to repair your mower, your car, buy a trailer. And so, you need to have at least half that amount up your sleeve for if something goes wrong. But having said that, if you've got people that are just going into a business and they're starting up a business tomorrow, they're not going to have given that any thought whatsoever. Which is fine when they're on their own but as soon as they get employees, whole different ball game. Leschen: And then I think you've just got to be a lot more conscious about the money you're spending. And so using this 13-week cash flow, you know what customers you have, you project when they're going to pay you. You know what expenses you have and you put those into your spreadsheet and what it enables you to do is, say you had to pay... Say you had a repair and maintenance that you needed to do but wasn't essential. You can move that out a week on a week that you're not going to get too much income because maybe it was a public holiday or there's a public holiday in there and you couldn't work or you were ill or something has happened that has not allowed you to work for a certain period. You just move your expenses out and you can... It's a really robust tool to help you manage your cash flow. Josh: Okay. And so with the 13-week cash flow, I guess you keep saying the 13 weeks, I'm going to ask you a few more questions about that, but is that something you should be considering personally as well as in business? Because obviously you've got your personal expenses, you got your business expenses and if you're the owner, they very much overlap a lot of the time. Leschen: I would prefer you keep them separate but 100%. I mean, if you're a sole trader maybe, keep them together, but if you've got a company or something, then definitely keep them separate. Josh: Yeah. I was just thinking if there's a person listening to that isn't in business, this still really, really relevant for them because they could still be put out of a job, they could still be put out on the streets and they still have, depending on the stage of business, in baby formula or golf clubs to be buying. Leschen: Both, yeah. Oh God! Yes. Josh: I guess, you need to make sure that you're forecasting and doing those things where you can and have that cash available to you. That's from a personal sense. And then getting into a business, if you're running a business where most of our listeners are, you want to make sure that you have 13 weeks. So how did you get to 13 weeks? Where did the magic number come from? Why not 12? Why not... I don't know if you remember Something About Mary thing where he said, "Seven-minute abs." Leschen: No. Josh: It's like, "You can't do your abs in seven minutes!" Leschen: Because four's too short, eights kind of in the middle. So 13 weeks kind of encapsulated... Who likes 12? I mean 12 beautiful number, I have to say as an accountant but then 13 is odd, so 13 just works. Josh: It makes sense, I guess. The average amount of wakes in three months I guess would be probably- Leschen: I was going to say it's probably about 13, yes. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: You would be surprised at what... We use it in our business. Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Leschen: And we might shift around payments if we think, for some reason, that... So, for now, clients are paying slowly, right? But we still have wages to pay, we've still got rent. So if we have a discretionary spend we will move it from one week to the next. Josh: Yep. Leschen: Based on what we know, where our income is, or what week our income is going to land or cash our cash is going to land in our bank. Josh: Okay. That's actually brings up a very good point. So when you're starting up a business, and obviously depending on the scale and the size of your business, some people, they're net terms are nearly instant, they can sell a pizza and they're being paid in 15 minutes, but then depending on the level of business you're in, like for us, we have net terms that vary from anything from 15 to 45 day. Some people have, I think things are even higher than that. If you're in business and you want to make sure you have that cash flow, what is everyone else doing out there? What are the net terms and how much does that affect the bottom line? Leschen: It's so important because there are some things that you can't do much about because there's legislation around it, but again, I'll use us as an example, I'm quite transparent about what we do. So, we normally, for a client, we'll do your compliance work and then we give you a big bill, not that big, but we give you a bill at the end of the day for having done it.  Josh: Acceptable bill. Leschen: Yeah, correct. Of course. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: But then we're going, "Why are we doing that?" We would hate it if we went to you say, Josh, and went, "Can you provide us a service and then at the end of the year, give us a bill?" That would be a big bill. Right? Josh: Yeah. Leschen: But you might change it to monthly and that's what we're thinking about. So it's smaller chunks. People can absorb the cost a little bit better. People know what's coming up, they know when it's coming up, and people can then plan their cash flow a lot better. So people can do the same in their business if they've got something that they can start billing over a year or three months or six months, they should think about that. Because also then, for you, you've got a regular cash flow coming in. Josh: Oh, I think it's a fantastic idea. That's a big model that we're a huge fan of. So about 10 years ago we changed from being a per hour model to a per month model. And we give unlimited support for everything that we do and we're always available on the phone to talk to anyone and it's so much easier because you remove that resistance. Before you'd go into a business, you'd tell them what you're charging per hour and they'll talk really, really quickly. And I know I'm guilty of it. I'll go to my accountant and he'll be like, "Oh, so how's the family?" And I'm like, "Crap, am I on the time or not?" I don't know- Leschen: "Don't ask me about my family now!" Josh: Exactly. Ask me later when I know I'm not on the clock. And you start freaking out and we saw that that gave a lack of quality service because we'd go in and the receptionist would say, "I've got this problem." And the business owner said, "Not important." And I'm like, "Well that's not very cool." And so, charging a set price per month gave everyone that same thing, and I'm not going to say that this happens, but depending on your industry, when you have the likes of gyms that have popped up, these 24-hour gyms that are not doing much at the moment, but that you have this card sitting in your wallet. Isn't it weird how you don't lose weight with the card sitting in your wallet but the money still comes out? Leschen: I have a gym that I donate to. Josh: Yeah, exactly. You help fund their loans. Leschen: It's a great model that they have. Josh: Yep and so that's where I'm like, "Okay." So I don't know what you guys charge, but let's say it's $2,000 to do a returns for a Pty LTD something once a year or something like that. Leschen: Yeah. Josh: I'm just saying a ballpark number, but if it was two grand, that gives people the opportunity to go, "Ooh, shit, two grand, that's a lot of money. Maybe I should look around for next year." Where if you divide that by 12, all of a sudden, even if it was $200 plus the overheads of the additional bookkeeping and administration, and you go, "Okay, $200 a month. $50 a week, it's just coming out..." I know it's there. I know I can call you anytime. I know this is going to be done. I don't have this big expense and it's a much easier model and it's easier for everyone. Josh: But people... I'm going to use one of those terms like they do on the news when you say, "They said this is going to come." When they don't actually have any references. I mean I'm going to do one of those. I'm going to just say people freak out when they get their rates notice or their insurances too or whatever their case is in business and you go, "Oh crap. Here's an eight grand invoice that I wasn't anticipating at all." But if you're able to amortise that into smaller chunks, you're able to see the outgoings more easily, predict for that and forecast for that, for a lot of people that don't really use many forecasting applications and things like that. Leschen: It’s simple. Josh: Yeah, exactly. What do you suggest if you are new to the game and you're wanting to get a bit of an idea of, "What are I expenses next month?" Did you have any tools that you could suggest that you could do that in a live way? Leschen: Well, we use Zero a lot, but accountants love Excel, and I'm going to sound like such an accountant now, but Excel works wonders. Why make it complicated? You should know when your next bill is coming in. You should know when your rates bills are coming in. When you'd go into business, that does need to be a little bit of ownership about what you're doing. So yeah, if you're new in business, you're going to sign up for insurance. So you will know what that bill is and so you just put it into your little Excel worksheet and in the week that it's due and just have your weeks across the top and you just work it out like that. Josh: Yeah and that's easy enough. And most people don't, and I'm going to say the thing that all accounts hate, I love Excel, but if you don't have Excel, anyone out there listening in Podcast Land, use Google Sheets. It's the poo version of Excel. It's free. It's not as good. Leschen: I was going to say the same thing. Isn't it? Josh: Yeah, oh, it's okay when it gets down to.. For most uses it's going to be the same. Just when it gets down to some of the more complicated things that you're doing between them. Leschen: It's not complicated at all. Josh: Exactly, somebody can sit down there with a beer, hypothetically, and then go through and do that so that's really good advice. And when, I guess, looking to find out all your numbers and going through all your numbers, we've got a bookkeeper, we've got an account, and then I'm the business owner and a lot of people have that same sort of Three Stooges or Three Musketeers depending on how you feel about it. Where do you say is the best way to understand the cut-over between accountant, bookkeeper and business owner when it comes to responsibilities to create these documents, to know when things are happening? I'm not going to pick on any industry in particular, but some businesses sort of go, "Oh, no mate. I just do what I do and put everything in the Share Box and it just bloody gets sorted out from there. It doesn't, hey?" And then there's other people that have their finger on the pulse and I would be more closely aligned with that, myself. But I don't know if I'm... I don't want to think that I'm stepping on my bookkeeper's toes and they go, "What are you doing?" Or if the book is just meant to be there for reconciliation. So where do you say the cut-over really sits nicely to just know where your responsibilities lay as a business owner when it comes to things like this? Leschen: So if we start with a book, it's like a... What's the analogy with the cookie? Or making a sausage. The bookkeeper starts at the beginning, they input the data into your software package, say it's Zero or MYOB or QuickBooks, whatever it is, and then your accountant reads it and checks, is how I would probably put it because if I had to input anything into Zero, I would probably break it, but I could probably get my way around it, sort off, but I would not be anywhere near as efficient as a bookkeeper. Josh: Cool. So from an accountant's perspective, you're into the P and L's. Leschen: Yeah. I want to tell you how you're going, why is your marketing so high this month when you only budgeted X or why is your rent percentage of income so high? Those are the conversations that I want to have with you. I want help you interpret your numbers so that you can go away and go, "Right, okay, this is what I need to do." We're going on our plan traject trajectory or we need to change. Josh: Obviously, in the analogy of making the sausage, if the meat is rancid or the bookkeeper's not doing the job that you thought they were meant to be doing or something's wrong, let's say I just walked off the street and I was decided, "Let's start a business." Can you tell that the bookkeeper's been doing something a bit wrong? They've been claiming GST free expenses instead of other things where they shouldn't have been. They haven't got the appropriate tracking codes and things like that. Or can you go, "Maybe I should tell the business owner, this doesn't look a hundred percent kosher."? Or how deep do you get into it? Leschen: Yes, it depends how much you want us involved in your business. So we prepare a lot for clients. So it's at that time we review all the data and we go, "Well, this has got GST on and it shouldn't." Or, "Hang on a second, this insurance has GST on the full amount but it shouldn't. So can you give us the invoice?" That sort of thing. So we can certainly run a preliminary eye over what's in your books but it's not going to pick up everything but it will certainly pick up the majority of things. So we can definitely help from that perspective. Leschen: And then from a bookkeeper's perspective, it depends. We would always go back to the owner going, "Oh my God we had to reconcile your bank account. Why is it not reconciled? The bookkeeper should do that every time they come to your place." Or we would go, "Well no, we had to do 50,000 adjustments to your file." But it's just a two-way communication because we do like to work with the bookkeepers as well. And the good bookkeepers, we have a really open dialogue with so that they can ask us questions. Because the last thing you want is the bookkeeper and the accountant at odds with one another. Josh: Butting heads, yeah. Leschen: All three of us... Yeah. Because they get very protective of their work or the accountant gets very protective and it's not a good relationship. So you need the owner, the accountant, and the bookkeeper all to be on the same page, it just works so much better that way. Josh: I can say, comfortably, you're 100% correct. When I started the business in 2007 I read four or five books on bookkeeping and accounting and thought, "I can do this." Leschen: Oh my God. Were you having- Josh: Easy. Leschen: ...trouble sleeping? Josh: Ah, so 2007, start of the business, 2009 I went, "I am freaking out. What have I done? This is terrible!" And I got a bookkeeper and I'm like, "I need you to help me. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't want the government to come and hurt me. I haven't submitted anything two years." And they said, "Look, don't freak out. It's all right. You're not the only person that's ever done this." I'm like, "Yeah but I don't even want to be any of the people that have done this." I don't want to be in the naughty chair. What am I doing? Anyway... Leschen: Just fix it! Josh: Exactly. So she went through it all, got it all sorted and at that stage we were using QuickBooks, got it all sorted and, oh my goodness, the weight off my chest, that was fantastic. That's something that I said, I went, "Okay, I shouldn't have been freaking out about this." The good news is though I read enough into it to understand enough about the numbers and so I definitely think everyone should... As you said, the business owner needs to take some responsibility when it comes to knowing what expenses are coming up and being aware of that. And I 100% agree because being able to do this, I was able to more easily diagnose and understand things when I was going in for an expense or going in for a loan or something like that. I understood where and how that would work and how you could better map out the chart of accounts or general ledgers. And that was great. Josh: And that, for me, definitely made the line of a bookkeeper versus a business owner a bit fuzzy because I'm like, "I don't want to step on their toes. How much am I meant to know and do?" But at the same time I think more knowledge can only be a good thing, but just know that there's other people that do what they do professionally and better, so I don't necessarily jump in. I wouldn't be expecting business owners to go and do security assessments on their companies. Leschen: Well, I was just going to say, my philosophy is you go and do what you're good at. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: I will help you interpret your numbers until you understand them, because I do like to get to a stage where you do understand them but I'll help you interpret them. I'll help you along the way, but you go and build your business and build what you're good at or do what you're good at because I wouldn't have a clue about IT. So it's just having those people... I think we're in a world where no one is an... You can't be a generalist. You can't build your business and be good at IT, your accounts, your... What else do you need? Legal. You can't be good at all of that and you don't have time to do that. Josh: It already bothers many business owners, including myself. You're kind of still expect it to be the salesperson, the marketer, and whatever the thing is that you're good at and it's still like, "Aw man, I had to learn to become..." It sounds like I'm extroverted at the moment, I assure you, I love a quality month alone with a book. Leschen: Sure. Josh: I realised in business, if you're not the person able to talk, your messaged doesn't go anywhere. You can have the cure to cancer but if it's sitting on your shelf and you don't have a voice to tell anyone about it, you shouldn't even have it. Leschen: No. If it's sitting on your shelf and you're at home trying to do your bookkeeping, instead of getting the word out there, or you're struggling with your bookkeeping and it's taking you a week to do instead of two hours, like a good bookkeeper or something like that. What a waste of time. What a waste of opportunity. Josh: Absolutely. And we've only got time once, don't we? So you don't want to be- Leschen: That's right. Josh: Spending your time doing crap. Leschen: It's the one thing you can't get back. Josh: Exactly right. So there's books out there that I have read and I'm sure other people who've read like The Barefoot Investor and stuff. Leschen: Oh yeah, I haven't read that one, but yeah. Josh: What would you say, if people are looking towards forecasting or people are looking towards some sort of material to not necessarily tell them, "This is how to do something." But just tell them how to make sure they're doing the right thing? Forecasting's awesome, the split of expenses can sometimes... My family are either teachers, business owners or engineers, all of them, my grandparents, everyone. That's the trifecta that we've got there. And dad was an engineer. So doing all of their operations and bits and pieces. Leschen: Oh, bite your tongue! Josh: This isn't just for that business it's for other businesses that he's worked with previously, but how much people generally spend on marketing, generally spend on the people in the trenches to get the work done. And I've always had a lot of trouble with that because I've sort of thought, "Well, if you want to get your message out there, your brand out there, you need to be spending money on marketing. "As much as when I first started my business, I thought like a lot of people, people will come. Rome wasn't built in a day but you build it and they will come and it wasn't the case. And that's when I learned to start talking more. Do you like review if you see some weird patterns, if you went, "Oh, that's weird that they're spending 60% of their revenue on marketing and 20% on business meetings and only 20% on staffing. That's a bit of an odd mix." Leschen: We'd certainly be having a conversation at that point in time. But it also depends on where a business's at. And so, part of our job is to, I guess, listen and we might have these set things in our head and go, "Yeah, wow, 60% on marketing. That's really high." But there might be a very valid explanation for that. So we'll play devil's advocate and make sure that strategy, I guess, is robust and that the business owner has thought through all the pros and cons. And if it's good, it's good. And if they go, "Ah, yeah, I could probably get an employee that would do..." It's all those types of conversations. So all in all, we just strike up a conversation around it. Everyone's got a filter through which they make decisions, whether there's $0 in the bank account or a million dollars in the bank account will affect how you make your decisions. So we're just trying to make sure that all decisions are made at an even keel. Josh: What was it that I saw? It was a presentation that I saw in the past and they said, "The decisions and the ways that your mind works when you're backed into a corner will be incredibly different to the ways that would work when you're thinking clearly." Leschen: Never a truer word has been said. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: I agree. Josh: So I would say every business has gone through some hairy bits. And if you haven't, you're going to, it's just inevitable. You're not taking enough risks. Yeah, that's cool. So if you are looking to make sure that you're keeping your cash flow in the right spot, what are some of the things, I guess, you can do in regards to say commercial property you might be leasing and things like that? Leschen: So right now,in this specific time, if you're starting to worry about cash, you should be speaking to your landlord. Josh: Just for everyone listening it's at the COVID time we're talking. People listen in five years time, it's the COVID time we're talking right now. Leschen: 2020 it'll go down in history. Josh: Yep. Leschen: Yeah. In this COVID time, because there's specific legislation now for it, you should be speaking to your landlords and see if you can get some relief around your rent. You should be speaking to your banks, see if you can defer payment. And at the moment they're not obviously I'm saying you can go payment free, but they're just tacking it onto the end of your loan. But it gives you a little bit more financial certainty now, just do it because your stress levels are going to sky rocket and you're not going to be able to think clearly unless you relieve some of your cash issues. And if you can, go for Jobkeeper if you haven't already. Josh: Yeah, jump into it. They've extended that haven't they? Just recently. Leschen: So they've extended applications until the end of May and you don't actually have to have paid that $1,500 per eligible employee until the 8th of May. The major banks are funding those so if you're a customer of Westpac, ANZ, NAB or CBA, you can actually go to them and they will do a short term over-draught sort of thing. Josh: Bridging loan type thing. Leschen: Yeah, correct. And at very reasonable rates and that will help you fund a lot of that. So I would be getting on the phone ASAP if you want to do that sort of thing. Josh: That's awesome advice. So Leschen, is there anything else that you'd like to go through that you think I haven't covered off on, that you think would be... Questions or information that we should be given to our listeners? Leschen: Look, if anyone has any questions, happy for you to get some notes and I'll shoot something through, but stress is a big things so look after yourselves and have a clear mind as much as possible. Yeah. Josh: Cool. It's been lovely having you on the show here. I'm going to chuck some links in the description here for Element Business and Accounting Solutions for anyone that's interested in jumping across there and hearing a bit of the voodoo that they do and how they can help you out if you are a bit or you're not sure that you're getting the right advice or if you want anything to do with forecasting and want a bit more information there, make sure to jump across and talk to a wonderful team. And everyone else out there, stay healthy and in Podcast Land, if you have enjoyed this, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and everyone stay good.

Covid Created Customers With Julie Bannister Josh: All right. Everyone out there in podcast land, I've got a cool guest for us today. We've got Julie Bannister from BforB, and she's been doing some special stuff with businesses for a number of years and several different flavours, and overall, she helps businesses grow and thrive. And who wouldn't want to grow and thrive at a time like now? So Julie, tell me, how would you say we could best take advantage of the current pandemic? Learn more about Covid created customers at dorksdelivered.com.au Julie Bannister: Hi Josh. Well thank you and thank you for having me on the podcast today. I think obviously we all are online because we cannot meet face to face and that was the whole part of our business. It was face to face business networking. So we had to pivot. I think that's a trendy word just at the moment. Josh: Isn't it? Julie Bannister: It is. I feel a little bit bad saying it, but we have had to change and we've had to go online. So that is our only option. That's everyone's option is to be online and really to support each other. But I think we all have to realise that it's not the end, it's not that we won't come out the other side of this pandemic, and it's not that we can't also grow in this time. Julie Bannister: So I think that is one thing that we really need to be aware of and for everybody to be aware of, and for us to think of ways that we can, and I've seen many of our members of BforB, and other business people just looking at how they can maybe take things online and sell their product online or doing other things so that they can stay afloat in this time and then come out the other side and thrive. Julie Bannister: So we've got lots of things that we're doing. That's one thing that I think we all need to be looking at, at this present point of time. Josh: Absolutely. Changing around the way that you do business is incredibly important and making sure that you're ready for the boom. And I think this is for some businesses, has come as a complete shock, to other businesses, they've seen this as a bit of a kick in the butt to start doing things a little bit differently. And it's all about just making sure that you're ready. And there's just been a breakneck speed that we've seen people do some of these changes. Josh: I guess what you're saying and I'll bring it to an analogy I'm very fond of which is comparing success to a Chinese bamboo tree. So the Chinese bamboo tree you can plant and for the first five years, it grows only very, very small amounts. And then on the fifth year, in six weeks, it grows 80 feet. Julie Bannister: Oh my goodness! Josh: I know. Julie Bannister: We've got bamboo in our backyard and it's been there for about four years. Josh: And using what you said as an analogy, I think all of us have some bamboo in their own backyard and one way or another. Julie Bannister: Yes. Josh: It's about working that out now and harvesting that and planting the seeds now because people right now isn't the time to bury your head in the sand. It's the time to be building relationships and helping people out and making sure that when things come good, you already have that groundwork done. You already know who you know, like and trust and you've already built those relationships up. Josh: So that you can then move forward and move onwards and upwards. Julie Bannister: Definitely. Josh: So anyone that's looking to start a business, this is the most ideal time. And I can say that with a lot of confidence, knowing that Dorks Delivered would start in 2007 as a bit of a side hustle, another one of those words that everyone overuses. Josh: And it was 2009 that we had the, I guess, mini-recession in Australia and the global financial crisis. And that was our time that we absolutely boomed. I gave up my day job, turned that into my full-time gig and I've never looked back. Julie Bannister: Wow. I didn't know that Josh. I've talked to you a lot, but I didn't know that. Yes, interesting. Josh: Yeah, and I think this is the best time that people should be growing businesses. People shouldn't be closing and they should be pivoting them wherever they can and making sure they're taking advantage of the huge amounts of time that people have available. Julie Bannister: Yes, definitely. Josh: So an example I'll use, my podcast has been running now for a bit of time and the YouTube channel has been running for a bit of time. Josh: We have over 100 videos in the YouTube channel published, I think about 120 podcasts and about 180 recorded. But I was only looking this morning at the dashboard for where we're sitting. So the podcast, just looking at it right now, the podcast, the difference in traffic between February and March increased to 30% more listeners. Julie Bannister: Wow. Josh: If we have a look at the YouTube channel, it's increased. The watch time has gone up by 47%. Julie Bannister: That is amazing. Josh: 47% for the month, just ridiculous. And the view count's gone up by 10% and so I think what we can take home from that is, going up by 10% means that I've got 10% more viewers or customers, but the current customers having watched 47% more of my content has shown that they have enjoyed what we're doing, but they just haven't had the time to look at it in the past. Josh: That's where you've got people with more time and what you guys are offering, which I'd love to make sure everyone else knows a bit more about that, but what you guys are offering is going to mean that they can build those relationships with that available time. If they have available time to watch my stupid videos, they definitely have available time to build relationships. Julie Bannister: I must say that videos, very entertaining. They're not stupid, they're entertaining. Sometimes I'm not quite sure why you said that, and why you say some things, but they are definitely very entertaining. Josh: I'm going to say something I'd normally never say, but I was told many years ago, you can have something that's boring. You can have a boring topic or something that people don't give a crap about and someone said, "They can give a crap about, you just have to roll it in glitter." And I'm like, "Okay, no worries." Josh: So you take a boring subject like IT and stuff like that, and you roll it in glitter and that's what the YouTube channel and podcast is all about. Julie Bannister: That's what you definitely do. Josh: That's right. So you've been running something called BforB in one form or another for quite a while and BforB connects people together and builds those relationships up. Julie Bannister: Yes. Josh: So tell me about what you're doing now for people that are looking to grow their business. Julie Bannister: Yes. Okay. So just to go back a step, you mentioned when you were talking Josh, that building the relationships and that's the core essence of networking and business because you need to build those relationships to actually get, as everybody says, the know, like and trust, so that people will want to do business with you. Julie Bannister: And that's what we do in networking. So now that we can't meet face to face, what we're doing is, we've gone online and obviously, the meetings are free to join in, and we're actually launching in a number of different areas. So we're launching in regional Queensland, we're launching in New South Wales in Sydney, and building extra groups near where we are here in Brisbane and Adelaide, and the Gold Coast. Julie Bannister: So allowing people to join in, in the already established network with our formatted meeting structure, it's formatted and it's professional, but it's friendly and casual if you can have that all in one. And you've attended some Josh and you understand that that's what it is. We like people to have fun when they're there. So currently, we're allowing people to take advantage of that and we're offering free membership, well we're saying three months at the moment, but that may have to be extended. Julie Bannister: We're saying the hopeful, three months, this nightmare, we'll be out of this nightmare and we'll be back to life. But that may need to be extended. So that free membership will be extended for however long we're in this situation and allowing people to join in with our network. And we have some larger meetings where all of the members all over Australia connects. Julie Bannister: So that would be people's opportunity to connect with everyone. But it's allowing people to build the relationships now and when we've got the time, as you mentioned, then when we come out of this, those relationships will still be there. And from that, hopefully, referral business can start happening for many, many people. Wonderful, I'm just so excited about it. Julie Bannister: I was sharing with my coach the other day and we got so excited about what we can do for businesses at the moment. And as you mentioned, Josh, people who are not even in business, it's a great time for people to start thinking about that. Josh: Absolutely. We've got an abundance of time. Julie Bannister: Yes, yes. Everybody's got a lot of time. And there's such an opportunity for everyone in this situation and this is the way that we feel that we can help people, help our current members as well because they get connected with other people and we're all hurting at the moment in one way or another. We're all coping in one way or another and all differently. But this is, I believe, a great opportunity for people to be building those relationships now for the future. Josh: Fully agree, as you've pointed out in different words, but your network is your net worth. Julie Bannister: Yes, definitely. Josh: And creating a good network and talking to people right now is the best thing you can do. Those without a voice, won't be heard. And if you're going to just sit there in your sorrows, it's not going to build your business or your mindset, or grow yourself personally. So jumping into a group, as you've very, very generously pushed a free reason. There's no reason, there's nothing to lose, if they just want to spend a bit of time building up their relationships with people now. Josh: When everyone comes back, as I was saying with the bamboo tree, as soon as everyone kicks back into gear, things will be striving through and thriving for them and their business. So it's sensible to set the groundwork now. Sow the seeds, put them in the ground, even if it's not five years, if it's five months that we're in this a pandemic for, it would mean that in five months' time you've hit the gas pedal and you're absolutely cracking out goals. So we'll make sure to put a link towards that because I think that's very, very important and that people do jump onto that. Julie Bannister: There's one thing else that you touched on is that, some of us, and I know even in the last couple of weeks, I've wanted to put my head in the sand or go back to bed and put the pillow over my head and forget that anybody even exists. Josh: I had a talk to my mate, Jack Daniels. We're sweet. We were pretty close. Julie Bannister: My challenge is that if I get too stressed, alcohol doesn't do me good at all. So that's not my answer. But I think we have to not be tough on ourselves because realising that some moments in the day will feel a bit like that and other moments will feel, no, I can do this. So we really do need to acknowledge that and get connected with people so that we can all pull each other through all of this and not be too hard on ourselves, I believe. Josh: Absolutely. Being able to sit down and just, if you want to do it with me right now, Julie, I think it'd be good. Just take a deep breath, and take a breathe in, and breathe out. And then just know, and recollect yourself, and recollect your thoughts and your position. Feel comfortable about where you've come from and this is something that I always try reflecting on every three months, every year, every five years, I go back and look at each of the different business plans that I've made either from the start of the year and go, okay, what have I achieved? Josh: What have I been able to achieve? What have I been able to climb out of? What's been the driving motivator and those things and go, I can do lots. I can't believe how much I've done and be excited about those things and then go, okay, how can I, in a time like now where people are thinking we don't have the resources to do things, we don't have the ability to go and see people. Josh: It's a time where you just need to pivot your mindset and think about how resourceful we have the world at the moment. Being able to do things such as Zoom. We have the ozone layer that's clearing itself up at the moment. We have a huge amount of benefits that are coming from this. Now there's going to be a whole bunch of fallout from that as well and what the world looked like when we went in is not going to be what it looks like when we come back out. Josh: But knowing that you're still here fighting the fight and you have a game plan and way to position your business, it gives you something to drive towards and thrive towards. Like your kids at Christmas time when you tell them to be good and then say Santa's coming. Like, "Oh, I'll be good then." You just got to have something to work towards and know that you can create that sparkle in your eye and your family's. Julie Bannister: Yes. I think the gem in that is, or the key point in that is being connected with other people, whether it's your family, but I think business people, we are a little bit different and we can't always talk to our family members about the challenges or the stress that we're feeling in business. So being connected with business people, is really important in any way you at the moment, I think. Yes. Josh: Absolutely. You're exactly right Julie, and we need to have people being connected with their businesses and what they're doing and also understand that your business and your personal life are two separate things and building relationships in business can help you out personally as well as in business. That's very, very important to make sure you differentiate the health of your business and the health of yourself. Josh: I paused everything to do with Dorks Delivered and I paused it for three days as I went through the personal approach and game plan as to what we would be doing and how we'd be making sure we're okay personally. And then once I was confident with the results, I then started looking at the vehicle that brings us the success that we've got in our lives. Julie Bannister: That's very interesting. I didn't know that. That's another point I didn't know, but I also didn't even think of doing that. So that's a very good point Josh. Josh: Well I think it's knowing that your family is going to be healthy. I'm a bit of a forward thinker and I'll plan for the worst and hope for the best and that's what everyone should do. Nothing out of the ordinary. I didn't go do some bulk buying or anything like that. I don't have a room full of toilet paper. Julie Bannister: I hope you've got enough though. Josh: I've got a mango tree at the back. Julie Bannister: Ooh. Josh: But yeah, just the normal amount that fits under our sink and that we'd normally buy and just knowing that we've got our water bottles filled up. I've got CB radio set up to mum and dad if something was to go wrong with the phone networks or internet or something like that. Just knowing if we have a complete blackout type situation, that you can still talk to your loved ones and where you're at with your mindset and your finances and that. Josh: That's something that I'd definitely suggest everyone doing is just having a look at what the government is putting on the line for businesses. There is quite a number of things we went through and we could see that if you were to be in an 800,000 to $10 million turnover business, you'd be pretty comfortably able to find about $350,000 worth of advantages from the government at the moment. Julie Bannister: I haven't added that up. That's interesting. Josh: Yeah. So that's the numbers that we've got too and we've been talking to any other businesses, and this was something that I went through and spent a couple of days just looking at all the different literature that's available online to see what any of the different stimulus packages include and don't include, and make sure that you're aware of them before you start stressing out thinking customers are leaving and this is happening and that's happening. Josh: Just take a moment to collect yourself, see where you're at and see what is actually available out there and you'd be surprised at what businesses are happy to help out with and in a time like now, as I said, it's about building relationships. One business, we spoke to them, someone that we buy things from, so a vendor for us and we said, "Look, we need to know, are you relaxing any of your terms? You've pretty much presented us with a bill for $3,000." Josh: And he said, "No, if you don't like it, you don't have to stay with us." And I said, "Well, at the moment we would love to stay with you, but it's an auxiliary product that we weren't using with many customers." And we said, No, we're going to have to cut you out." And he goes, "We've had 30 cancellations this month. I don't know what's going on." And I thought, "Well you're an idiot then." Julie Bannister: He needs to open his eyes and ears. Definitely, wow. Josh: I said to him, "We'd be more than happy to utilise your products more than what we have been. We definitely see value in your product. If you give us some marketing material, we're happy to promote your product to help us help you out with this situation." Josh: And he said, "Oh no, I don't have time for that." I went, "Ah well, if you're not going to invest in your customers, you're not going to invest in your relationships. You're not going to invest in your business." It's fair that businesses with that mindset will collapse. And that's again, another thing that I found in going to the BforBs was, it's not just about the business, but you have a whole bunch of other advantages where you have keynote speakers and you have people come to these groups and they talk about the importance of doing certain things in business. Josh: Whether that be setting up your business in a certain way from an accounting perspective or creating videos for promoting your business or whatever the case may be. Automating and bringing back your life, which I'm a big fan of. Julie Bannister: We do have our guest speakers and that is a great value add. And just recently, we've been having a lot of speakers talking about the different packages that the government is offering and a lot of people are doing this, but we're still giving support around your mental health and things like that. But overall, we have guest speakers who talk about marketing, sales, IT, accounting, mindset, all different topics that can help people in their business. Julie Bannister: So yes, definitely, that is a great value add. And as you mentioned, it's not just about business, the friendships people make in BforB is just, it's so valuable, you can't put a price on it. And another value add that a lot of people receive from being a member of BforB is the confidence that you build because little by little, so you might be asked to do a one-minute infomercial and that's very frightening to a lot of people. Josh: Absolutely. Julie Bannister: Yes. And then we'll ask you to do a five minute, and then a 10 minute, and many of our members who've joined and was so scared to do a one-minute infomercial, are actually doing 25-minute presentations now. So it's a confidence-building and within a very, very, very supportive environment. Yes. So that's one of the biggest benefits I believe. Josh: You were talking about some things, new things that you learned about me today. One of the things, I can't remember if I've told you this or not, but I was severely bullied at school to a spot that I wasn't able to walk and I was very introverted. I was the guy that, I'm going to call myself wicked awesome at chess. No one challenged me to that because if you're challenging me, you're probably better, but I was the guy in the library playing chess. Josh: That was my hangout. I was not confident to talk to people. I was not confident to be in the spotlight whatsoever. I was overweight and it was a battle and it was a time where something clicked and I realised that if I have developed the cure for cancer from a computer standpoint in managing and automating businesses, but I'll have that sitting in my garage. Josh: No one has the advantage from that. I'm sure someone has got a cure for cancer and it's just sitting in their garage and they don't have the voice to be able to speak, and speak and talk to people about it. And things like BforB, and being able to come outside of your comfort circle. Josh: Proud of me knowing about BforB was put onto a roadshow to talk to people about IT. It was a five-day roadshow. The first day that I did that roadshow, I recorded it because I was going to put it up on the web for people to have a look at. I watched it. I nearly threw up. I was like, oh my goodness, that's terrible. I can't believe I've done that. I've got four more days of this with no audience engagement and I've gone, oh this is terrible. This is so terrible. I was going to call in sick. I've never wanted my mum to write me a letter to say I can't come to school so much as a grown adult. Josh: I was thinking, I'm freaking out. I watched that same 30 minute video, maybe 10 times that night and I'm writing down what did I do wrong? How did I move my hands? I didn't like that. I look really nervous. How can I fix this? And I wrote down and critiqued everything. The Tuesday, I did the presentation and everyone loved it. They stood up and clapped. They gave me a standing ovation. Josh: I thought, oh, this makes Wednesday a lot easier. That's not to say I didn't watch it still, but BforB gives you exactly that power to be able to... It doesn't matter if you're a scared little mouse and you sit down. It gives you the growth to be able to talk and to know that other people are in the same boat as you. You're not just the only person that's feeling that way. Julie Bannister: That's exactly right. Yes, and that's actually the thing that rocks my boat in BforB is watching people grow and getting that confidence. The referrals, yes, because we need a return on our investment. That is still very important. But that confidence building, it's grows the person and the business. So that's so important. Josh: Yeah, well, Julie it's been great speaking with you and is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we finish this one up? Julie Bannister: We have some online meetings. As I mentioned before, we have our BforB regular meetings at the same time that we used to have our regular face to face meetings. We've got monthly networking, which is open to everyone to come on and we have a guest speaker with that one and I can share the link with you, Josh if you feel that's appropriate. Josh: That'd be perfect. Absolutely, that'd be great. Julie Bannister: Yes. And we do have our daily business, every business day from 10 o'clock till 11:30 where people can just come in and chat with us. No formal meeting, just connecting with people. So yeah. Josh: Cool. Well Julie, I'll make sure to make sure that all of our listeners out there in podcast land get those links and are able to really have a compounding growth for their business over the next few, hopefully only weeks, probably months, but likely, several months. But we'll see how they go. Julie Bannister: Definitely. Thanks for having me. Josh: No worries. And if anyone has enjoyed this, make sure to jump across to iTunes, give us a review, and everyone out there, stay good.

Helping Yourself With Bob Burg Josh: So we've got Bob Burg here today, and he's an absolute legend in his field. He's changed the way that I do business, he's changed my life. He was one of the first self-help books that I read. And ultimately it's something that I always talk to, a massive influencer for me. And I talk to all my clients and make sure that they go and read, number one The Go-Giver. They need to jump into that, that changes the way you do business. So Bob, tell me a bit about The Go-Giver. Get more tips from Bob Burg at dorksdelivered.com.au  Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/GS2jTHebvHA Bob Burg: Well it's a business parable. So it's a fictional story based on all tried and proven principles. And there's a lot of stories within the story that actually happen. But the actual work is a work of fiction. It's co-authored by John David Mann who's a fantastic storyteller and writer. I'm much more of a how-to guy. And it's a story of a guy named Joe who's a young up-and-coming, ambitious, aggressive salesperson. He's a good guy and he has good intent, but he's very frustrated because he hasn't reached the kind of success he believes he should have by this point. But he really comes to learn that the big problem, his focus is really on himself when it comes right down to it as opposed to others. And what he learns through the story, is that when you can shift your focus off of yourself and onto others. Being focused on creating or what we call getting exceptional value to everyone you meet, you realise that not only is that a more pleasant way of conducting business, it's actually the most financially profitable way as well. Josh: I have to say I completely agree. Having read your book, it would have been now, I couldn't even say how many years ago. It was many, many years ago I read. I started off with The Go-Giver and I thought, this is amazing. Jumped onto The Go-Giver Leader, jumped onto Sell me More, and then Endless Referrals, and The Success Formula. I nearly have the library. Bob Burg: Wow, thank you. That's a great compliment. Josh: I can say your teachings are amazing. And the way that that was done in The Go-Giver was a very light, easy read in my opinion. It related to lots of people and it wasn't something that you... You pick it up and you just wanted to read, you didn't want to put it down. It wasn't something that was hard to read. Bob Burg: And that goes to John, that's his writing skills. Josh: It helped. And especially in my naivety when I was first starting out in business, being able to read something like that and go, okay this sounds good. And knowing that there is good ways and great ways to do business, as opposed to the ruthless cutthroat methods that seem to be fictionalised in movies. Bob Burg: Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons there was appeal for the book, for the message. Because most human beings, they want to feel like they're making a positive difference in people's lives. And so I think what the book said is basically, yeah you can do business that way. Not only is it can you focus on bringing value to others, and not only is it going to have you feel good about yourself, not only are you going to make money doing that, but that's actually the more effective way of doing it than focusing on yourself. Because you think about this, and I often will say this in a joking manner when I speak at a sales conference. One of the first things I'll say is, "Nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota to me." Josh: Yeah, exactly. Bob Burg: Right? They're not going to buy from you, right and we all laugh because we all know that's true. No one's going to buy from us because we need the sale, right? They're not going to buy from you because you need the money. And they're not even going to buy from you because you're a nice person. They're going to buy from you because they believe that they will be better off by doing so than by not doing so. And that's perfect, it's the only reason why anyone should buy from you, or from me, or from anyone else. And the neat thing about that is what it does is it makes it so that sales person or entrepreneur who can place their focus on that other person, placing that other person's interest first, doing what's in the best interest of that other person and being able to communicate that. That's the person who's going to be more successful both in the short-term and the longer sustainable term. Josh: Well I can say, the proof is in the pudding and I've made my business on the pudding that you gave me. Bob Burg: Oh, okay. Josh: So yeah, it worked out really well. And as you said, it should be straight-forward but it just doesn't seem to come by nature. And I know, I myself I'm very technical. My background's technical, my skill set's technical and I was the technician that decided I've got something better to give to the world. And excuse the French, but scared shitless when it came to trying to sell or talk to people about it. And your books described it perfectly, don't sell. Just show people what you've got to offer- Bob Burg: Well, here's what it is. It's not that you're not selling, but we define selling differently right? Josh: Yeah, exactly. Bob Burg: Because when you think about it a lot of people say, well what's selling? Selling is trying to convince someone to buy something they don't want or need. Well that's not selling, that's called being a thief. So what is selling? Well selling, by definition selling is simply discovering what that other person does want, does need, does desire and helping them to get it. The Old English root of the word sell was sellan, which literally meant to give. So, when you're selling you're literally giving. No, someone might say, well wait a second isn't that semantics? And I say, well I don't think so and here's why. Let's say you have a prospective customer in front of you and they want to know why. Why they should do business with you, why you're the solution to their problem, why that... Well, so you're in a sales situation, you are selling. So my question would be, when you're selling what are you giving? I suggest you're giving that person time, attention, counsel, education, empathy and ultimately extreme value. So when we look at selling that way, now we see that it's really something good that we're doing. Josh: You're helping everyone ultimately, unless you're being a thief as you said. Bob Burg: Oh yeah, sure. And that's not selling, that's being a thief. Josh: That's right. As long as you've got a good product, a good mindset, and you believe in what you're doing, and what you're selling, and what your message is I find that your customers become your best salespeople. Bob Burg: Oh, absolutely. They become your personal walking ambassadors. Josh: Correct, yeah. And it's an amazing concept, so anyone that hasn't read The Go-Giver definitely needs to jump into it. It's a must-read, it needs to sit on there on the shelf as one of the first books that you read next to E-Myth and other classics. And in fact when I first met my partner Sarah, she'd started a first business as the first set of... Backstory, met her on Tinder. I would have rather met her in a nicer way, but we live in the age that we live in. So, met her on Tinder, and the first time we caught up together she had her folder there and I caught up with her. She didn't know if it was a business meeting or a date. And I was talking to her about different ways that she could better her business. And if I don't say so myself, quite the gentleman opening the door and so on and so forth for her. And I said one of the first things you need to do is read The Go-Getter, and this copy that I've actually got here now that we've been together for a while is signed by me saying, To all your success, Love Josh. Bob Burg: That's great. Josh: So this is actually the book that I had for myself and I gifted to her. And it's come straight back, although that sounds a bit corny it's exactly the message that you're giving, you give, and it comes back to you. And it comes back to you in... I gave her a book and I got a life partner. How good's that? So it comes back to you significantly more than what you give out. Bob Burg: Well that's awesome. And I never thought of my book going along on a Tinder date, or business opportunity or what have you but I'm glad it did. Josh: So here you are. You're obviously an invite to the wedding. Bob Burg: Definitely, exactly. Josh: Yeah, just a little thank you on that one. And the opportunities don't stop when you turn off your sales cap. It's always on if you're passionate about it good things always come your way. Bob Burg: Yep. Josh: So tell me about what happens after the book, when someone's read the book what's the next steps they can do to find out how to better themselves and adventure onwards past he one-way literature. Bob Burg: Well application is always really key. And that's why in the story itself Pindar, the main mentor told Joe there was really only one condition for his mentorship. And that is that he applied those laws. Every day, that every time he learned a new law he would apply the law that day. It didn't have to be done perfectly and it wasn't a matter of figuring out exactly why or why it wouldn't work or what have you. Just do the thing, right? Just take action on it. And so we find the feedback that we received from a lot of people, bless you, a lot of people do that. A lot of people will take one law and say, okay how do I apply this? How do I do this? And then they'll work on that. I always think that's a great way to start. So you ask yourself, how do I bring value to another human being? And when you think about it we have to really understand what value is, what it means. A lot of times I think people maybe confuse price and value, and those are actually two different terms. For example the law of value says your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. But you think about it, that sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy. Give more in value than I take in payment, aren't I going to go out of business? And so we simply have to understand the difference between price and value. So what we know is that price is a dollar amount, it's a dollar figure, it's finite. It simply is wat it is, it's the price. Value on the other hand is the relative worth or desirability of a thing, of something to the end user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing, this product, this service, this concept, this idea that bring with it so much worth or value to another human being that they will willingly exchange their money for this. And be glad, be ecstatic that they did while you make a very healthy profit. And so when you automate for example somebody's business, and do this in a way that... What's the value you're providing? You're saving them time, you're saving them energy, you're saving them from making needless mistakes, you're making it so that they're going to make more money in their business. So I guarantee you that whatever it is you charge that person, they're getting much more in value than what they're paying. But you're making a very healthy profit because obviously with your cost of goods sold, and rent and everything else you're selling the service for much, much more than what you're having to pay to support it. And that's why in a market-based economy with every sale there should be two profits. The buyer profits and the seller profits because each of them come away better off afterwards than they were beforehand. So, that's the law of value. It's not a matter of, some people might think The Go-Giver, does that mean you're giving away your products or services? No. Does it mean you're not making a profit? Of course not. As a Go-Giver you're going to make a much higher profit because your focus is going to be on the value, the experience, everything you proved that other person, right? Not low-price, when you sell them low-price you're a commodity. When you sell on high-value you're a resource. Josh: Well that's it. Too many people, there's a podcast we did a few weeks ago on apples versus oranges, how could they possible be the same price? When people are comparing apples with apples, and as soon as you are comparing apples with apples you commoditize your business, and then the only thing you can fight on is price. And that's where you need to be able to bring that value, bring that change. So you've got value, price and cost. Bob Burg: Yeah. And here's the thing. So when you look at the price, and I think the cost is pretty self-explanatory. The price is self-explanatory, right? But when we talk about value, that can be both concrete in terms of when someone saves a certain amount of money, when you help someone make a certain amount that's fine. But there's so much more to the experience itself even, that's conceptual in nature. But here's what we've got to really understand, that value is always in the eyes of the beholder. Josh: Yes. Bob Burg: So what that other person feels is valuable about your product, or service, or doing business with you or what have you. Not what you think is of value, or what you think they should think is of value. It's about what they do. So if we're going to say to somebody, okay so how do you practise the law of value, right? Well the first thing you do is ask questions, and make sure you discover what other people find to be of value and then you go from there. Because it's not a matter of just doing things that you think are of value to others, that's fine. But what you feel is of value may not be what they feel is. Josh: Right. And then there's this disparity between your service offerings not being seen as valuable. Bob Burg: Stand-by, right? Josh: Yeah. So it's a very valuable lesson. And I know that you're big on authority building and influence, and I think that is something that could bring out a lot of value to people. Something that can show people your worth in mass without having to necessarily having to spend time as a commodity. You're able to put a resource in front of people or it's able to come about in front of them where they can see the things that can benefit their business and benefit their life. How would you go about starting off becoming an influencer? Bob Burg: So I think it's always a good thing, I'm always a big believer in defining terms so that we're all facing the same direction. So when you think about what influence even is, on a very basic level influence can be defined as simply the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action, usually within the context of a specific goal. So by definitely that's [inaudible 00:24:47]. Now that's the definitely, but I don't believe that's the essence of influence. The essence of influence is pull. Pull as opposed to push, as in the saying how far can you push a rook? And the answer's not very, at least not very fast or very effectively. Which is why great influencers don't push, right? You never hear people saying, wow that Tom or that Nancy, she is so influential. She has a lot of push with people. No, she's influential she has a lot of pull with people. That's what influence is. It's pull, it's an attraction. Great influencers first attract people to themselves, and only then to their idea. So how do we do that? So the law of influence says, in the book the law of influence says your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first. Well what does that mean? We're not talking about being self-sacrificial, or being a martyr, or being a doormat. But no, here's what we mean. Like this person who utilises pull in order to influence. That person's always asking themselves questions such as, how does what I am asking this other person do, how does it align with their goals, their wants, their needs, their desires? How does what I want this other person to do, how does it align with their values? How am I making their life better? What is a problem of theirs I am helping them to solve. And see Josh, when we ask ourselves these questions thoughtfully, intelligently, genuinely, authentically, not as a way to manipulate another human being into doing our will, but as a way of building everyone in the process. Now we've come a lot closer to earning that person's commitment as opposed to trying to depend on some type of compliance which is push, right? That's pushing ourselves or pushing our will and so forth. Josh: So say you're a small business, you've just started out and you've got just yourself. You've just read The Go-Giver and you're thinking about how can you change your methodology from being a push. I'm sure you've seen some of the pyramid schemes that are out there that have generally more push than pull from a sales perspective and they're trying to get you to on sale certain products without mentioning brands and bits and pieces. There's lots of them out there and that's always a very push, and their sales training has all been very push. How would you change someone from a push mentality into a pull mentality? And how would you change around their processes to allow for that to come to fruition and be noticed by, either their existing customers that have come about probably through getting sick of saying no, and they've finally said yes. Or how would you then change the mentality of their customer base or do you think it would be a bit more of a situation where you'd refresh the customer base? Or I guess how would you change your mindset from the 1980s this is how I'm going to be pushing something onto someone, to the 2020s soon to be. How would you change their process? Bob Burg: So I would say regardless of the field, if it's sales there are certain people who do it through push, and the good ones, the sustainably successful ones do it through pull. The ones who do it through push, and have been successful, and have been successful for a long time. They have to continue repeating the process over, and over, and over again with new people all the time. It's exhausting, it's very, very dificult. You can do it but it's very dificult to build a sustainable business that way. The ones who do it through pull regardless of the business, regardless of the industry. These are the people who typically are able to really develop a wonderful referral base, and as you were mentioning earlier people who are out there singing your praises, right? What we call personal walking ambassadors. So I think it beginning with the initial conversation. And let's say you meet someone somewhere and you're at a business social function. And you just say hello, and you say your name, and they say their name. And you ask them what they do and they tell you what they do. And they're going to probably give you some elevator speech, right? I send high-end copying machines to business that need to blah, blah, blah, right? And so forth because that's what most people have been taught to do. So you want to listen respectfully when they do it, but then when they ask you what you do which they'll probably do. My suggestion is to rather than do some elevator speech, because remember right now when this person first meets you they really don't care about you, and don't care about what you do. They care about themselves. So my feeling is just say the name, say whatever your company is, whatever you do. I'm an accountant with so-and-so or whatever. But then you're going to go right back to asking that person questions about themselves and about their business. So I have questions I call feel good questions. And those are questions that are not salesy, they're not prospecty, they're not intrusive, they're not invasive. They just make this person feel genuinely good about themselves, about the situation, and about you. And remember when you're focusing on them you're taking the pressure off yourself. You don't have to be that person who has that clever pushy line and so forth. So the first feel good question that you could ask is simply, how did you get your start or how did you get started in the copying machine business? Or selling copying machines or what have you. Or you may say, how did you get your start in the office products profession? For a little bit more elegant. Whatever it is that person does, asking them how they got their start is a fantastic way to immediately communicate value to them. Because again, value is much more than just money. It's making the person feel important, feel good about themselves. And how many people ever ask this person how they got started in their business. I guarantee no one, their own family probably doesn't ask that person. And here's you who they just met, and you're asking them basically to tell you their story, and they're going to appreciate that. I would follow that up probably with another fielded question such as, what do you enjoy most about what you do? You'll probably segue into it by saying, wow you must have had some fascination experiences. What do you enjoy most about your work? Or what do you enjoy most about what you do? Again, it's a feel good question. There's no pressure attached to it. Now when you've begun to develop a little bit of a rapport with that person, I would then suggest asking what I call the one key question that will set you apart from practically everyone else that person has ever met, and that question sound something like this. Gary, how can I know if someone I'm speaking with is a good prospective customer for you? And think about what you've done when asking that question, right? Unlike other people who are just again trying to sell their product or service right away, what have you. You have actually said to this person, not in so many words, but what you've communicated is I want to help you. I want to add value to your life. I want to make your life better. Josh: You give something to them, yeah. Bob Burg: Yeah. And they're going to really appreciate that. Now, at the end of the conversation you've got their business card, you can follow up with a personalised hand-written note which is so much better than a text or an email. Even though those are always good, but after you first meet someone there's nothing like a personalised note or card to send hand-written just saying it was great meeting you. If I can ever refer business your way I certainly will. And you've not established a connection, you've now established a relationship with this person that you can then begin to build on however you do it. Whether it's by, then you connect with that person on social media. Whenever you can refer that person to someone else, or if you know that person has an interest in antiques and you find an article on antiques. And you print it out and you send it to them and say, hey I came across this and I remember you love antiques, thought you might find... All these things you're doing, you're just creating that relationship with that person. And this does not have to take a long time, it doesn't. And what happens is when you do this consistently, okay. And you do this over time with new people on an every day basis you start developing so many people within your new sphere of influence that you've always got someone who's at that point where it's ready for you to approach them about either doing business with them directly and/or referrals. Josh: What you're saying there you need to make sure that you are genuinely listening to people. You're not just hearing them, you need to be, lack of a better word, involved emotionally in what they're saying, and listening to what they're saying, and actually action from that information. You don't want to be just hearing them and then, oh yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. You like remote control racing. That's cool. Okay, moving on. You need to be ready and engaged to build that relationship if that's what's important. And ultimately in business it is the currency that is the most important, building relationships. All ships rise in high tide, especially relationships. Bob Burg: Yep, sure. Yeah. As we say, and several of the mentors told Joe in the story, the golden rule of business, of sales, of networking what have you is simply that all things being equal, people will do business with, and refer business to those people they know, like and trust. There's no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit these feelings towards you from others than by, and again as you said genuinely, right? Genuinely and authentically, and moving from that I focus, or me focus to that other focus where you're really looking to, as Sam one of the mentors advised Joe, make your win all about that other person's win. Josh: Yeah, 100%. It is all about the other person, and it should always be about the other person. And when people say... All the things that salesmen say. I'm not closing enough, it's all a numbers game. All this other stuff, there's always someone out there as you said that's ready to build a relationship, ready to be heard, and ready to have their story heard. And building those relationships when the time comes will come. If you're being a pushy person it's all about the numbers, and you're trying to change your three percent conversion to a five percent, or a five percent to a 10 percent when you're calling up. It's a yuckier game with a lot more negativity. It's a game that you have a lot of friction towards building the relationships, as opposed to genuinely building relationships. Bob Burg: Oh yeah, it always comes back to how you do it. If you're doing it with the, how do I serve this person? You're going to have a lot more success than if you were saying I'm going to talk at this person and try to get them to buy. Again, it's not that doing it the Go-Giver way is self-sacrificial. No. It's more practical doing it that way. Because again, are they more likely or less likely to buy from you when they can tell that you're focused on them as opposed to being focused on getting their money. Josh: And I've got to say that the solutions that you're putting in place, you've been listening to them. You understand their problems, you understand their stresses, you understand their pain points. You're able to then focus on that and make sure that you're removing those problems, not just explaining that moving to this solution is better for your business. You're hearing their problems and saying, well maybe this isn't better for your business. Bob Burg: Right. Josh: And that's fine as well. Bob Burg: Absolutely, when that happens that happens. Josh: If you've still got a perfect person there that you've been talking to, building a relationship with. They know the solutions that they offer, they know the things that it does, the things that it doesn't, the bells and whistles. And that then allows for them to then refer other businesses on when they see that there is a better fit for you, and they hear other people's problems. Bob Burg: That's right. Josh: And that's where you have your compounding effect of growth and it's really a beaut feeling. So I've been very excited. As I said, The Go-Getter changed my life. Changed the direction, and not just from a personal relationship perspective that I brought up earlier, much before that. So yeah, again thank you for that one. Bob Burg: My pleasure. Josh: I've read different books. There's one, I hope I'm not quoting the wrong name here. If I am I'll correct it with the title. I think it's called Sapiens, and it talks about how many relationships a single person can have in their life and build out from that. And they talk around the magic number of... That's weird. Bob Burg: That's Sapiens. Josh: That's the one. Bob Burg: Yeah. And he talked about the tribes back in the hunter-gatherer days were typically about 150. And that's the number, David Burkus writes about that too in his book. And yeah, I'm just trying to think of the person... Durham's or Dunham's, I can't think of what law it is. But it's that he's the person that came up and he documented that 150 per person. Josh: For anyone that's watching this, that wasn't staged there. You've got hundreds of books behind you, what are the chances the one on your desk- Bob Burg: Well the funny thing is, a good friend of mine had referred Sapiens to me about two years ago. And I always have so many books on the list to read, finally I was speaking in I think Colorado maybe a couple of weeks ago and I got that at the book store, I saw it at the book store. And I was looking for it, I was hoping to pick it up. And I started reading it and I really haven't been able to put it down. I'm about three quarters of the way through now, it's fascinating Josh: It's a fantastic book. With building relationships, and obviously all different businesses have... I guess you brought home exactly what I was bringing up in the book. And that's the rule of 150, maybe 200 people. And if you are in the business of selling items that... If you're in a business where you need to sell more items and not say a B2B business and profession industry like myself. If I have 50-70 businesses that I'm working with I'm happy as Larry, and I can comfortable have those 70 relationships. But if you're selling something that is a lower priced item you need to have a significantly higher ratio. Maybe it's 500 to 1 or something like that, and you still want to have those relationships built. And you want to have the authenticity with the relationships, but knowing that you can't necessarily have the closeness, and as they talk about the different circles of relationships that you have. You have your close intimate relationships and then it goes out from there. How do you make sure, how do you keep the authenticity? Would you suggest people using different databasing programmes to write down notes on people. To make sure if you don't talk to them for two years and then they come back to you and they said, Larry I really loved the talk that we had at the business conferencing meeting from two years ago that you can barely remember because there was too many beers flying around. And what would be the best method to make sure you are bing authentic. Would you say, Larry I'm glad we had a good chat but don't remember, what'd you say? As soon as you get home, as soon as you get back to the office write down what you remember about Larry and make sure that you can have a refresh? Bob Burg: Well I think the key with technology is to always use it to help with your authenticity, you know what I'm saying? So in other words it shouldn't be that it's about the technology, it's not. It's about the human relationship when you can utilise technology to do that. So I do want to write down what I talked about with someone and review it every so often because I do want to know, okay? But if something comes up where I happen to see that person or what have and they bring that up, and it's really not something that I do remember. No, again it depends on the contexts. Usually I'm going to say, you know what my gosh. I love you, love talking with you but I don't remember exactly what we talked about in that conversation. If you have that kind of relationship you can do that. But if it's going to hurt that person's feelings because that person maybe whatever. Well no, I'd probably just say, always love talking to you and that was great. Again, sometimes I think we go too overboard with being literal in some ways. You always want to be honest, but you also always want to be kind and tactful as well. So when technology can help you to authentically keep in touch with another person, absolutely. Totally we utilise that. Josh: Cool. That's perfect. So that's something that I know that myself, I write down as many things as I can remember about as many conversations that I had with people. And that could be whether or not they liked Chivas Regal or a dog named whatever the dogs name is. Bob Burg: Well then that's good. Because if they like Chivas Regal, and that might be something you mights end them sometimes on a special occasion. If their dog's name is Checkers and you want to be able to remember that their dog's name is Checkers when you speak. If you can remember it just because you remember it, that's great. I love animals so I tend to remember people's pets names. But that's not everybody, and there's other things about people I don't remember. And in that case you need that reminder. So no, I think all of that is great when it helps to further a relationship and it's authentic and genuine, of course. Utilise the technology. Josh: As I said, I think technology is perfect to be able to help people out. But as you said, do not overcome the personal touch. Don't use technology to be personal, use technology to get rid of the repetition. But use yourself and your power that you have, your voice that you use to build those personal relationships. Bob Burg: Exactly. Josh: And that's what it's about. The cavemen had different tools that they used to achieve their objectives. And the time has changed, the chairs we sit in are different, the offices have air con in them, but we use a different set of tools to achieve the same objectives which is awesome. Bob Burg: They're just tools, exactly. Josh: Well we're getting very close to the end here. I wanted to ask, is there any speaking events or things that you do either around the states, or within Australia or down under that are coming up anytime soon? Bob Burg: Typically at this point I travel a lot less than I used to. At 61, I just don't want to be travelling all over the place, so I limit my out of state engagements to about 20 a year now. And I try to now keep it within the states. And those are my corporate programmes that I do, but we also have public seminars that we do usually in Orlando because it's easier for people from Australia, and Singapore, and South Africa, and London and so forth to get there. And so we hold them in Orlando, which is really only a couple of hours drive for me up the road. But Orlando because it's Disney World it's easier for people to get into. So our next one is actually in late January, it's called Endless Referrals: The Go-Giver Way. We limit those to about 50 people, so it's over two days and it's very hands on. So those are the ones that will be the public ones that we'll be doing from now on. And I have so many great mates in Australia, and if I could beam myself there I would do that in a minute. But the long flight, I just don't travel well anymore, so. Josh: Well I've [crosstalk 00:46:15]. Bob Burg: I stay pretty close to home. Josh: It took me two weeks to get over the jet lag when I last entered The States. I know this is pretty bad, but give me your favourite Aussie accent. Your best Aussie accent. Bob Burg: Oh, let's see. Hey mate, lovely to see you. Love all my mates down there, and we'll have a good time no worries, no worries. Josh: That sound pretty good. I don't mind that, that's good. Bob Burg: We love Australians, we love our Aussie mates so it's always a neat thing, and it's always a joy to connect with any of my friends from the beautiful land down under. Josh: Well I had the opportunity to head over for three months last year so I was travelling all around the place. And I'd have to say it's like you're travelling to different countries with each state that you go to. Bob Burg: Oh, it's amazing I know. Josh: Where Australia is in my opinion more so not as diverse. You have parts that are definitely greener and parts that are more tropical, but overall the accent doesn't vary a whole bunch. The people mentality, that doesn't change a whole bunch. Except for obviously things such as you go into the middle of the city in New York, and you go to Sydney and there's the hustle and bustle. People aren't as friendly, but that's just the nature of the beast. And for anyone who does want to head to any of your opportunities that you've got either in-person or any of the content that you have, you've got the Go-Giver movement, is that right? Bob Burg: Yeah. General website is Burg B-U-R-G.com. The two day workshop is Endlessreferrals.com, and we also have Thegogiver.com. So we've got content all over the place there. Josh: We'll chuck some links down below, all the appropriate places depending on where this gets seen. You can jump across there and have a bit of a look. And I'd like to thank you for coming along and talking with me. And we've got this beautiful summer day in paradise here, that's why I thought I'd head outside. Is there anything else that you'd like to cover off on before we jump? Bob Burg: No, this has been a lot of fun, very enjoyable. And I wish everybody who is watching and listening, I just wish you a fantastic 2020, may it be your best year yet. Josh: Thank you very much Bob, and I appreciate you coming along. Bob Burg: Thank you.

MAY this episode bring you joy and start your month off the Sit & Kick way! What better way to introduce Tinman Elite to the podcast than having Drew Hunter break the ice.  Drew Hunter, a high school phenom, accomplished near impossible feats: Gatorade Athlete of the Year, sub 4 minutes in the mile, signing of a professional contract with Adidas. The list could go on for Drew in his prep years. As a professional, Drew has yet to stop. Creating his very own team in Boulder with the help of like minded individuals and qualifying for his first senior team in the 5,000m. Drew has no plans on slowing down. Your hosts waste no time bringing the banter and dive into a variety of rabbit holes. Drew was a good enough sport and even brought banter of his own. Some of the Banter you won't want to miss is: "Four Beasts. Four Tinman. 3000m, score it like a cross country meet. who wins?" -Josh "What is your love languages?" - Drew If you have words of your own about any of the banter had on this or any episode. Comment over our social media platforms and your hosts or guests will bring the heat!

Episode 7: Instant Gratification Ella poses the question to Josh: What if you’ve followed all of your therapists advice, read all the books, tried all the techniques and still feel anxious? Josh explains the concept of “testing” and how sometimes we have to let go of trying so hard to ‘get better’ in order to find relief for our anxiety. Mentions: Alan Watts Lecture - Wu Wei (YouTube) Get in touch with us to ask a question, you’d really help our podcast help others! talk@thepanicroom.co.uk Find us on instagram at @ellaofthenet and @joshuafletcher.author

How to Set Yourself Up for Success Josh: G'day, g'day, you got Josh here and I've got a couple of special guests here. We're actually going to be doing a group conversation. We've got Sarah from Perfectly Beautiful. Say hey. Get more tips on how to set yourself up for success at dorksdelivered.com.au  Sarah: Hey. Josh: We've got Masso and he's starting a fantastic business around sailing. Do you want to tell us a bit more about that? Masso: G'day guys, my name's Masso, got a little sail business starting up in Croatia. We'll talk about it pretty soon I think. Josh: Yeah, that sounds pretty cool. I've also got Al here and Al's had a couple of businesses in the past, and he's looking to go into his third venture. And what do you think? Al: I think the biggest thing I've been considering is how I can be in the building industry and leverage other people's time, and just manage a business and be off the tools. Josh: That's cool. And I think that that's ultimately what every business owner should try to get into. They should try and get off the tools, because ultimately the tools have a dollar value that are associated with them. So the moment you're on the tools, they're costing you money because you can only make a certain amount of money. But the more people you have on the tools, the more money you could be making as a percentage. That makes sense, obviously? Al: Yeah. Josh: Sweet. And so tell me, Masso, what are you looking to be doing with Croatia and sailing? Masso: I'm trying to change the game a little bit. In Croatia, you've probably heard of Croatia Sail. It's a pretty hot topic at the moment, but I've noticed in my time there working there for the last four years that probably the younger crowd, if you're in the late 20s to early 30s, the young professional crowd, they're not enjoying their Croatia Sails as much. So that's what I'm targeting towards. Nicer boat, nicer accommodation, beautiful dinners, young professionals, basically. That's my target market. Josh: Sweet. So when you say young professionals, you mean people that have gone through university, or people that have got some sort of education or something behind them. They're not just still living with mom and dad? Masso: Exactly. That's it. Josh: I think that that's a really cool spot to be in and what you're doing. So for an IT business, what we do a lot is we try and get the big boys toys, these big corporate toys, that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars per month to use, and we bring those down to small to medium enterprises where we're able to have them utilise these cool tools, and we buy them in mass and sell these licences at a cheaper price. So they get the big boys toys. And I guess you're doing that in a similar way in where you're allowing people who don't necessarily have the ability to go and see these cool things in their early ages when they're just starting to get into this, and being able to experience life changing opportunities, which is pretty cool. Masso: Yep. Josh: So Sarah, your business started 12 months ago, is that right? Sarah: 18 months ago. Josh: 18 months ago. Oh shit. Look out. Okay. So 18 months ago. And you've gone from strength to strength, and you've obviously had some stressful times from what we've spoken about in the past and you've been in a couple podcasts before. Sarah: Yep. Josh: What would you say would be the one thing, one piece of advice that you could give Masso and Al that would have them skyrocket into the future? What's one tool that you could say their businesses could use that would advantage you? Sarah: Well, I always use... Love using Active Campaign, if that's a tool. Josh: Plug. Active Campaign plug. Sarah: Plug. Josh: Okay, yeah, cool. Sarah: But at the end of the day you've just got to work hard. And if you have the passion and the drive, you will get there. It's about what's in the heart, what you're passionate about. And if you do what you're passionate about, then you can go places and achieve it. So if you're doing a rubbish job that you don't enjoy, you're never going to go anywhere because you don't have that passion behind you. Josh: No drive. That's something I see a lot of the time. A lot of my friends, some of them have been working for Coles or bits and pieces for years and years, and they're just doing their thing and they're not really enjoying it, but they're just doing their thing. It sounds super cliche. Just work hard and you'll get what you want, your dreams and aspirations, don't screw anyone over. It's probably not a good idea to screw people over, but at the same time, if you're really passionate about what you're doing, you'd be able to drive those long hours and you'll be able to take it home, but you've got to make sure you're working on the right things to be able to go to that next level, which is a sentence I freaking hate. How many levels is there? Al: Probably for Masso and I, we're not afraid of hard work, and we've probably put the hours in and it would be for us about educating ourselves on how to step up from that and add smarter into working the hard hours as well. Yeah, like incorporating things that maybe don't normally, just in our industries, but work in other industries. Sarah: It's scariest taking that first step of hiring your first employee or your subcontract or whatever. That was the scariest thing that I did. And I thought, "Oh no, I'm going to do all the work myself." And Josh was like, "You'll never ever make money doing it yourself, you make money off someone else." At first I thought, "No, I'm going to do it all." And then stepped back and thought, "Okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to trust someone else." And that was the hardest thing. Al: And I'm sure your pathway is quite similar to a lot of tradie subcontractors where, as you mentioned, we can only earn a set rate. So you put in the extra hours, you're doing quotes after dinner, you're going to see people on a Sunday, but that's not a paid part of the work. Sarah: No. Josh: No. You've got to either really be passionate about that. Al: And it's never going to get bigger or better than what it is, doing things that way. Josh: My biggest thing, when I started out, I was the technician running around with a screwdriver underneath people's desks. I actually went to the doctors. I couldn't kneel down anymore. And they said they hadn't seen this for years. They said this has been something that was very popular years and years ago. I was underneath people's desks so often fixing their computers, they said I've got religious knees, which meant that the piece of cartilage underneath my knees, the cushion underneath my kneecaps had worn away, and whenever I knelt down I was on veins and it was pushing down and my leg would just spring out and I couldn't control it. They said that they were called religious knees because back in the day people would be at church all the time praying. And so that would be on their knees at the time. As funny as that sounds, I was on my knees too much working hard. It resulted in me- Al: Trying to climb the chain? Josh: Yeah, exactly. You got to do what you got to do. Exactly. What I guess I found from that is you can't be the person on your knees doing the work. You need to have other people on their knees, sorting out the jobs that come through. In being on my knees that long and then going home and then sitting on a desk, sitting at a desk and then having to then do the invoicing, and do all the reconciliation and do everything else, the biggest thing that I found was none of that was profitable. So my first step was automate all of that. I went through and made a whole bunch of different processes that allowed for me to automate any of the different travels of the kilometres, made sure it's all okay with the ATO, and did all of that before I went through and then started employing other people. So my job was doing what I enjoyed doing, which is the technical stuff, before I then went on and then had other people starting to do the technical stuff. Ultimately the best that you can do in business is be the best person, but the best sales person, the best advocate for your business. Then once you're doing that and other people are doing the work, your business will absolutely boom and flourish, but you need to be able to be able to get to that spot. And that's where, like Sarah was saying, Active Campaign, which is...Have you guys heard of that? Al: No. Masso: No. Josh: Active Campaign is... I'm going to say email marketing tool, but it's significantly more than that. Have you guys heard of MailChimp? Al: I've heard of MailChimp. Josh: MailChimp you can send out email newsletters and bits and pieces. Active campaign, imagine you've got this website you're talking about, Masso, what your website has is you've got a section where they click, oh yeah, I'm 18 to 21, or 22 to 28 or whatever it is. Or they click on a finance bracket or they click on a B2B, or whatever the industry they're in, or whatever you think would be a way to segregate your audiences, they click on that. Active Campaign can go X, Y, Zed person that just clicked on that? I know that you are now interested more so in this, and then you start talking about what are the things that are going to get them across the line. If they're between the ages of 18 to 21, and they're in a professional services. Bit weird, good on them. But maybe you're focusing more on getting out of the house and really, really spreading wings as opposed to someone who's 30 to 35, which you're talking more about experience that lifetime that you've never had before, and make sure that you put a nail in the coffin and say, "This is it, this is this great tour," or whatever the case is. So you speak to them in an appropriate way. But with Active Campaign you can then take that information, and have that enter in against them, and then have it set so that if they do subscribe or they do, fill out a form or whatever they do, and they come back to your website, you can actually see how long they're on the website before, and then have it set so if they're on the website and they actually read through all the information, so they're on a certain page for like say six minutes or something, or six minutes of reading, you can then have it set so that you have a scale on how hot they are as a lead, and then you send a certain email. If they're only on there reading it for two minutes and they still fill out the form, you then send them an email that might have more information about the original page they were on, or then give them a 20% discount or whatever it is. But you can absolutely automate the entire sales process. Masso: But you really, you shouldn't lose a customer these days. Josh: No, you shouldn't. And it starts at $15 a month, so it's nothing. There's other competitors out there. There's Ontraport, there's Infusionsoft, and as a technology company, we don't tell anyone to go with a certain company. We're agnostic with whatever the solutions are, but Infusionsoft and Ontraport are $300 plus a month, give or take for the same sort of plan. $15 is pretty good. They're amazing for the price, but that's a tool that would definitely have you skyrocket, but it takes a lot of planning. One thing that we see business owners do too often, I think you guys are not in this category, but they go, "Oh, I'm going to be a millionaire in 12 months," or 14 months or 24 months, whatever it is, and they just expect that all this money's going to come to them as soon as they create this new idea that everyone's going to love, but they have no idea on how to market it. Most of the people that I speak to that have these awesome ideas are engineers or someone that's just whipped up something in their backyard. There's a fantastic guy that I've been speaking with who's got this invention called the Motherfluckers. It's a chicken feeder, and it's completely automated, and it's only once every 30 days you need to actually go and refill it. The chickens can choose the type of grain they want to age out of this device. So there's no waste on the ground. I don't know if you've seen how a chook eats, but it picks the grain and throws away the shit they don't need, and then the rats and other vermin come and grab it. This removes all of this from them. And it's still just as simple as just pouring it all in. He's got a really cool idea, but he's still focusing heavily his skill set on marketing because that's not his strong points. That's where you need to be able to market your product and automate your process. Al: How do people like Masso and myself learn about automation and technology? Or do we outsource that and focus on the parts of our business that we understand? Josh: This comes back to what we were talking about before and what are you passionate about. I'm a strong believer of teach a person how to fish. If you can teach someone how to fish, you don't have to worry, they just go and fish. But if someone just likes eating fish but fucking hates fishing, don't teach them how to fish, it's not going to work. They're going to hate the whole situation. If you went, okay.... You're okay to learn what the difference is between a H1 and H3 tag, meta tags, meta descriptions, long tail keywords and all this other stuff and you want to know how to G zip your site and how to make sure it's going to be efficient, and then ranking on things back linking and everything else, and with SEO and you go, "Aw man," and you're getting a rubbery one over it, that's cool. Al: I just like to eat fish, I think. Josh: Exactly. Al: I'm going to outsource this one. Josh: That's where you're like... All right, if that's what you're keen on, some people go, "Oh yeah," look, the minute you start a business, you might not have anything else that you're doing. You might not be working. You might have somehow come into money and so you're just like, "All right, let's just do this." If that's the case, then it's a different situation. But if you're not in a situation where that's the situation, then you need to be able to work at what's right for you. I would suggest learning a little bit about everything, so that when you're outsourcing, you know you're not getting fucked over, is the short of it. Sarah: See, everyone's different. I love the business side more than the hair and makeup side. Al: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sarah: I always love hair and makeup and I'm passionate about it, I know a lot about it, but I would rather be sitting back doing the business side of stuff than always doing the hair and makeup. Josh: But that's changed over time as well, because before when we first started discussing this, you were very passionate about- Sarah: Doing the hair and makeup. Josh: The hair makeup and then it sort of pivoted a bit, and I think it just comes down to, again, what you find is an interest. For me, I love helping business owners out so that if you said, "Josh, I want to do X, Y, Z," I'd have a look at the game plan, I would say, "Okay, that looks good," or help you make the game plan. And then whether that be helping you to write documents or later create standard operating procedures to outsource things, or whether that be to be able to teach you how to do these different things, or outsource it yourself, or write these documents for you, or whatever the case is, our team could help you do that. But it could also be a situation where you're just happy to do it all yourself anyway, and we just teach you how to use the skill sets that we've got. The take home, I would say in answer to your question before, which is how do you go about learning all this? Listen to the podcasts. Plug. But pretty much just read and read and read everything about automation. People think automation are removing jobs. They're not. A car automated a horse, and horses are not neglected the way that they were before and treated the way they were before. There were delicate animals that were being killed all the time because of what we were doing. Josh: Dale Beaumont is actually a great one. Sarah: He's doing 52 ways of- Josh: 52 ways in business. There's a day course. It's held in Auckland, Queenstown- Sarah: All over the world. Josh: Three or five places around Australia, free day course. So just check it out. It's pretty good. Sarah: He does a paid course, but you can go do a one day course and he'll tell you 52 ways how to do it. And you've obviously got to follow it yourself. But he tells you everything to do. Josh: In my opinion, what Dale Beaumont is selling, is selling you 52 different ways for you to do something, and you'll leave feeling absolutely super impressed, and he'll charge you $15,000 to $20,000 for the course to help you more out with that over the next 12 months. The 52 things he teaches you, if you actually implement them and you have the drive and motivation to do it yourself? In my opinion, you do not need his 12 month course, but if you are driven enough to do that, if you need someone who has like an accountability partner, you need someone to have more information about it. You can't just go and Google it, then his course is fantastic. Al: I think that's interesting as well, because one thing I've found with getting into podcasts and audio books is so much of it is American content, and it's so hard to filter through and find... You might find little bits of Australian content, but to find someone that can give you a whole system or something to follow, I think is getting hard to find. Josh: Absolutely. And we are in a different climate, and this is something that is terrible for technology, because a lot of people, especially from America, they're going to go, go cloud, cloud, cloud. But cloud is not right for Australia. Cloud is great, but the internet speeds in Australia are absolute pus. And so it does not mean you should be moving everything into the cloud. It is not sensible. And if you're looking at it from a business perspective, if you think your business is able to scale from one to 10 from 10 to 100 employees or something like that, cloud is going to be very, very expensive for you as opposed to going for something else. But that's all about swapping capital expenditure versus operational expenditure. Your capital expenditure will be higher if you're investing in your equipment. I'm going to cut this one off and we can continue on and talk about this a bit more later. You've been listening to Masso, Al and Sarah about some of their business interests and the way they're doing business, and if you've enjoyed this, make sure to jump across to iTunes, give us some love leave us some feedback. If you haven't enjoyed it, still give us some love. Leave us some feedback. Let us know how we could've changed this around and made this better for you. I look forward to having you tune in in the future. Stay good.  

Josh Buckley manages a $50m early-stage fund and as an angel has built a portfolio that includes the likes of Clearbit (Chairman), Rippling, Boom Supersonic, Lattice, Embark and many more incredible companies. Josh is also the Founder & Chairman @ Mino Games, the gaming studio he scaled to $20m in annual revenue and raising $40m in funding for the company. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How did Josh make his way into the world of startups at the age of just 15? How did that lead to becoming the youngest YC founder ever? 2.) What does Josh mean when he says, "the best entrepreneurs are cockroaches"? How does Josh think about capital efficiency today? Does Josh agree with Bill Gurley in stating the biggest challenge today is "the oversupply of capital"? How does Josh advise his portfolio today on raising big rounds? Capital efficiency? Burn rates? 3.) As both a fund manager and founder, what have been some of Josh's biggest takeaways from now investing in 100+ companies as an angel? How has investing impacted Josh's operating mentality? What are the benefits of angel investing? What are the potential dangers? What advice would Josh give to founders entering the world of angel investing? 4.) What are the biggest elements people underestimate when it comes to CAC? What have been Josh's biggest lessons on the volatility of CAC over time? How are we seeing the platforms evolve and develop their tech and pricing? How important is channel diversity to Josh? What is balanced? What is not? What have been Josh's biggest lessons when it comes to payback period and it changing over time? Items Mentioned In Today’s Show: Josh’s Fave Blog/ Newsletter: Paul Graham Blog As always you can follow Harry, The Twenty Minute VC and Josh on Twitter here!

KFC is making a dating sim (it's actually called I Love You, Colonel Sanders! A Finger Lickin’ Good Dating Simulator!) You play the role of a student at a culinary school that a very young, very good looking Colonel Sanders just happens to also attend. There is also a dog that is also a professor who is named...Professor Dog. There isn't a release date yet, but we are 100% in.Other Video Game News:EA is testing a new streaming service and is looking for volunteersApple Arcade has a launch date and a priceThis new from Playstation is why I'm an Xbox fanboyWith the launch of SNES Games in Nintendo Online, Nintendo is taking away monthly gamesThis Neo Geo arcade controller is way cooler than that Capcom monstrosityWoW Classic is out and it's awesomeWhat Video Games We're PlayingVicky: WoW Classic, Borderlands 2 + DLCCliff: Just Cause 4, Link to the Past, Smash Bros, Not a HeroDylan: Slay the Spire, Gears of War 4, BrawlhallaQuestionsDA VINSTER: What is the next Microsoft/Nintendo Collaboration would you like to see next? Cuphead in Super Smash? Banjo on Switch? Conker's on Xbox? Overall how can Nintendo help Xbox and vice versa.OptimistPrime: Set up 2 video game characters on a blind date and tell us how it'll go.JoeColeslaw: How can we solve the music licensing issues that certain games face such as Crazy Taxi, GTA, Tony Hawk... Is this a money thing? Something tells me it is a money thing.itsEddie: Mario is you're grandpa . What words of wisdom would he give you ?Josh: What games do you constantly return to like a bad breakup? Do you return out of boredom or a need for satisfaction that only your ex_game can give you? Do you think games as a service capitalizes on this relationship with games by releasing dlc and updates quarterly or yearly?Cheap/Free Video GamesEpic GamesThe End is NighAbzuConarium (next week)Humble Bundle Monthlyhttps://www.humblebundle.com/monthlyHumble RPG Bundlehttps://www.humblebundle.com/games/rpgs-2019

A marketing campaign is nothing more than orchestrated noise around your product.    Here's an example of how to keep a campaign going when everything is going well…   A campaign is about creating orchestrated noise   … that's my definition, but really that's all a campaign is.    Running Facebook ads,  that's NOT really a campaign. It can be part of a campaign, but it’s NOT a campaign on its own…   Marketing campaigns are a dying art… which means MOST people are leaving money on the table.   Think about this...   We're no longer just in the information age, we're in the attention age where the loudest, not the best, is more likely to get paid.   HOW TO TURBOCHARGE YOUR MARKETING CAMPAIGN   Recently, one of my good friends, Josh Forti, did a cool launch, and he had me come on to promo this product.    After our interview was done for the launch, he asked if he could get on my Facebook page to chit chat about the interview and do a little MORE promo around it.    I swear one of the major reasons that people don’t do very well in this game is simply because they don't know how to do the second step that Josh took…   ...which is why I thought it'd be cool to share the interview with you…   I chopped it in different places and such, but you’ll see Josh ask some very general questions…   Then kind of after each of my answers, he'd go back to, "Hey, we covered that in the playbook, click here."    That skill is a very learnable thing, and it’s one of the easiest ways to get better results in your marketing campaigns…   Because, here’s the thing…   I see people with a...   Great Product   Excellent Funnel   Good Launch   ... but then they don't follow through all the way, and it cuts their launches down.    Campaigns are broken up into a lot of parts. I plan and put all the pieces together, and then, I ask...    How am I gonna get tension?    How am I gonna leverage the followings of other people to get attention?    Once it's in the middle of a launch, how do I keep the momentum going?    Once it's done, how do I keep that pressure moving as well?    And, so I thought this interview with Josh was a great example of how to keep the pressure moving...    So, when you launch your product, or whenever you're putting your stuff out; *REMEMBER*  it's NOT just about the product or the funnel…   It's about the noise.    So you need to ask, “How am I creating that noise?”    The success of your product is just as dependent on the noise you orchestrate as the product and the offer and the sales message itself.   If no one knows about your offer, you're NOT making any money anyway.    If you can't get anyone to even go look at your sales message, your product is already dead... so why did you make it?     So I'm just giving this to you as an idea, so you can see like, "Oh, man, I should go do that."    A follow-up interview whenever you interview somebody for a product you're putting out is NOT abnormal at all.  Let’s cut over right now…   JOSH FORTI’S MASTER MOVE   Steve: On the other side of this wall here, there’s a whiteboard and I call it my "questions whiteboard."    I believe that questions invite revelation, and that's good and bad...    So…    I have to focus on answering rich people questions instead of poor people questions.    Because whatever I ask, I will likely answer.    The purpose of the board is NOT for me to answer the questions.    The purpose of the board is me to figure out which question to focus on answering.    ...because I shouldn't try and answer EVERYTHING.    It's funny you asked that;  I don't know why, but it happens in the morning….    I'm getting ready in the morning and my brain turns on, and  I'm like, "Whoa, what about this idea?”   Man, I'm not going to lie, I've run out in a towel before to write stuff down... like, “That's such a sick idea!  Oh my gosh! I should try to answer that…”   And I put it on my questions board... and I write, and write, and write…   I have a BIG list of unanswered questions that I want to pursue.    It's NOT that I'll sit down always and be like, "I have to answer this now," and just dive into my books…    But, on interviews, because it's on my mind, I'll continue to clarify the answer to that question…    I'll be like, "I think it's this."    One of my favorite things is to go back and listen to those interviews and hear myself, and be like, "...that was probably the coolest I've ever explained an answer to the question on my whiteboard.”    And so I go back a lot, and it's one of the coolest ways I figure out like, “Okay, that made sense, that didn't make sense. This was helpful, that was confusing.”    And it's only honed me in what I do more and more.   FINDING WHAT RESONATED?   Josh: It's interesting how much you can learn about certain things that you say when there are clips of the crowd, (and they get the back angle)...   ... and you watch everybody's heads go down and start writing all at once.    And you're like, "Oh my gosh, they all really liked that point."    And so it's ALWAYS interesting for me to kinda go back and listen to old interviews, speeches, or things that I've done... that got A LOT of really good engagement...   ‘Cuz I feel like you can learn so much about what people really like, what resonated and what didn't resonate.    Steve: Well, it's funny 'cuz the market literally votes, (they don't know they're doing that a lot of times), and it's NOT just with products, but even with content, (you know that)…   It's cool to see that reaction when you say something and you know it's right, you know it's helpful…   ... but you said it differently that time, and suddenly it’s the click… and you're like, "Oh, that's what you mean!"    And then you see all the heads go down, and you're like, “Okay, note to self, say it that way next time because it's more impactful than last time.”   ARE YOU ASKING POOR PERSON’S QUESTIONS?   Josh: I believe that the key to thinking different…    The key to getting, basically, anything that you want out of life is asking the right questions.   If you know how to ask good questions, you can ultimately go out and find answers, have a good perspective, and get what you want out of life.    But how did *you* learn, like...    How does one go and actually learn good questions?   How do you determine what questions you're actually gonna ask, and what's worthwhile to go study or not?   Steve:    One of the biggest filters I run things through is, does that sound like a rich person question or a broke person question?   Josh: Hmm.   Steve:    A lot of times, people try to answer broke people questions just out of habit.    For example:   I don't clip coupons. I'm not against coupon-clipping. Well, actually I am… ;-)   One of the issues is…    If I spend my time and my attention and my focus on how to save money, I will find out how to do it…    ...but I also didn't learn how to make MORE money!   I'd rather learn how to make more money and who cares how much something costs at that point?     The one thing everybody has when they start this game is a buttload of questions.  … and it makes sense why they would. Just EVERYONE has tons and tons of questions.   Josh: Right.   Steve: That's natural… but, like start writing them down. I challenge everybody to do that…    And…   Before you seek to answer the question, seek if it's worth answering at all.   Josh: Yeah. That's huge.   Steve: It will pay you in time or money.   Josh: I love that.    One of the things you said is interesting because we mention it in The Mindshift Playbook, is the habit thing…   You said, ‘Often times we just do it out of habit,’ right?   Steve: You know what's funny, I'll go teach these models, “Hey, this is a cash flow model. This is a cash flow model. This is a cash flow model…”   And what's funny is, the very first reaction people have is, “Is that gonna work for me? Am I in the right spot to do this?”    And I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, are you kidding?”     ... it ticks me off so bad. Josh: It’s like, “Does ClickFunnels work for -----?”   Steve: You know what? Of the hundred thousand monthly subscribers, you're right, you're the one it's NOT gonna work for.  It's like, “Come on! Just do it."    People set a goal, "I'm going to go do this, and I'm going to use ClickFunnels to do whatever,” and they don't allow *themselves* to break on the goal.    That's the key…   You have to break *you* on the goal instead of change the goal.    Robert Kiyosaki says that as well…    As you start moving towards any goal, you’ll have these character flaws that explode in your face.    I was probably, you could say…    Addicted to video games in high school.    I was very overweight.    I got kicked out of college.    I barely graduated high school.    I couldn't speak.    I had major anxiety issues.    I am literally the opposite of everything that I was back then because I started realizing that,    I needed to allow myself to feel some pain on the way to the goal. Pain does not mean bad, and pain does NOT mean the wrong choice. Most of the time, pain means growth.   Josh: Yeah.   FAIL FAST   Steve: When you realize, “Oh my gosh, failure is really kind of a made-up principle. It's not even a principle, it's made up...    As I start to feel that pain, I start to feel the progression of moving towards things.   I went back and counted how many times it actually took me to make one of these funnel things work, and it was actually 17 funnel tries and 17 before that…   It was actually my 34th thing that actually blew up (from age 20 until now).   Josh: That's crazy.   Steve: That's A LOT of freaking failures.    ...and most of the time, people aren't going to be able to go through that.     About 1/3 into those tries, I became cognizant that…    I was changing at a speed faster than any personal development course could ever hope to give me. Josh: Ever! And you mentioned that in the interview too. You say like,    Entrepreneurship is the best personal development course you NEVER signed up for.   I mean, like it just is, and I 100% agree with that.    ...and it's interesting what you say about pain and struggle.    I think the one thing that we both agree upon is that the struggle is there for a reason. The struggle is a good thing.    The struggle is absolutely needed to develop you into who it is that you say. So it's interesting that like, they're saying it, you're saying it. Like, it's there…   I think in today's society, we're just trained to want to avoid struggle.    Everything is convenient.    Everything is now.    Everything is easy.    Like, “Avoid this!” (Thank you, marketers, right?), but like, you know what I mean?    I feel like we're trained as a society to avoid struggle, which I think is why it's so hard for so many people.    Steve: Yeah. And, you know, I think a lot of it, (and I'm never gonna be the one that just like slams and bad mouths school and all that stuff)...   ... but you think about it, you get punished for doing something wrong in school.    But like, man…    I do stuff wrong, all the time, in business, and that's actually the thing that accelerates me.   Josh: Right   Steve: “You can't do that here, or you can't do that here.”    Or…    “What if I fail?”  *Plan on it* And then you just move forward.   Josh: Write it in.   Steve:    I find that failing ends up being an accelerant to everything else that you do   I've gone through that many failures, and because it sucked for so long, it's NOT that hard to make cash now.    I'm like, “Okay, well, I solved that problem.”   And what I've learned is that while I teach these models, and then people feel this first sense of personal development requirement that comes like…    “Oh, man, I don't actually qualify to be running my dream in the first place.”    ...as they start moving, they start to gain this self-confidence. And then, they move faster and faster and faster…   I almost want them to hit some major speed bump quickly and then see if they can pick themselves back up.    That kind of person, I love working with them.   Josh: Yeah, because people don't know how to fail. Sorry. Go ahead. DO YOU QUALIFY?   Steve: I was chatting with Russell about this a little while ago…   I was like, "Dude, when I met you and started working for you in the same room, you were totally a different person a year and a half later by the time I left."    The Russell Brunson of 3 or 4 years ago, could NOT handle what he's doing right now.    But too many times we're like, “I want my dream with the million-dollar business now.”    Man, *You don't qualify* You've gotta get some personal development going down!   Josh: What would your advice to me be, if I were to go down that route and be like,    "Yeah, I'm gonna open up a talk show where we bring on interesting guests. Maybe we talk politics. Maybe we talk about business. Maybe we talk, whatever.”    What's your advice to me when it comes to doing those interviews or creating concepts around that?   Steve: Okay, so I'll tell you one of the reasons why Sales Funnel Radio has been so successful and “The Capitalist Pig” is such a big deal to people…  It's because it actively throws rocks around mainstream ideas that others believe.    So, I was in the Army, (and y'all know that if you’re on here, right?)    I was in the Army, I enlisted and I went to become an ammunition specialist, (which I didn't know at the time meant "fancy warehouse guy." )   I was like, “Crap, I wish I would have chosen something a little different."    Anyway, a little bit through that, I was like, "I'm going to go be an officer."    So, in the middle of my officer trainer, one of the things that they do is they make you study wars, battles, lots of strategy and movements... things like that.    So you study these HUGE battles, and it's a ton of fun. I really enjoyed it.    The guy who was teaching us was ridiculously smart. He's a historian that they brought in just for officer training.   It was a whole semester of just studying wars.    What's interesting is that he taught us that wars are started over usually pretty much always out of rights...   States' right   Human rights   ... that's what wars start over.  The Civil War was NOT started because of slavery. We did NOT leave Europe because of religious oppression, but that's how we romanticize the past…   What's funny is that in the middle of a war, a lot of times, a social issue will piggyback on the war.    So slavery becomes part of the Civil War, (like right towards the last hour)...    And that's when Lincoln said, "Hey, The Emancipation Proclamation, let's go dump it in there."    The same thing with like leaving Europe, as Americans, we're gonna go in and you know what… ‘it's about religious freedom now.”    It was NOT at first. We were Britains!    And the reason I bring this up is that from a marketing standpoint, when it comes to the way I treat a message, (this is not something I normally would talk about either), but …    I look to piggyback a message on the back of a social issue.    (Not a human rights issue... because then you're seen as political)    But when it comes to really disruptive messages in the marketplace, Socialism right now is getting a lot of attention…    So one of the easiest ways for me to get a lot of attention on a show is to become the anti-something major in a social issue that's currently got momentum.    It takes a lifetime to create momentum, but I don't have to do that if I piggyback on a social issue that I'm passionate about in the opposite way.   Josh: That's super good advice.   Steve: Yeah, I would figure out what big things to talk about. I find that themed shows always do better than a general, let's just...   Josh: Let's just talk.   Steve: Yeah.    So I would find something that you find and throw rocks at it like that, and then it's very natural to find those people who are for or against to hear both sides.   You'll get as many people who listen to you and love you, as hate your guts.   Josh: Yeah, well, I think this entrepreneurship like micro-influencer game has prepared me for the hate. Holy cow, dude!   Steve: Yeah, it only gets louder.   Josh: Aww, man, I tell you what! But I've learned to tune it out.   Steve: Well, thanks for listening and thanks for jumping on here.   Josh: Absolutely, man. Thanks so much.   WHOA!    If you're just starting out you're probably studying a lot. That's good. You're probably geeking out on all the strategies, right? That's also good.   But the hardest part is figuring out what the market wants to buy and how you should sell it to them, right?    That's what I struggled with for a while until I learned the formula.    So I created a special Mastermind called an OfferMind to get you on track with the right offer, and more importantly the right sales script to get it off the ground and sell it.    Wanna come?    There are small groups on purpose, so I can answer your direct questions in person for two straight days.  You can hold your spot by going to OfferMind.com.    Again, that's OfferMind.com.  

Thank you for joining us for our 2nd Cabral HouseCall of the weekend! I’m looking forward to sharing with you some of our community’s questions that have come in over the past few weeks… Let’s get started!    Anton: Hi Dr. Cabral.If you only knew how much you have affected my life in a positive way you would be proud of yourself ;-)! I have listened to every episode of The Cabral Concept and I'm a IHP L1 & L2 student of yours :-)!Because I'm a client of your private concierge practice I could access to the Dosha breakdown. I have to say that I was a little bit surprised about my score.Not in a bad way I just thought that my dominant body type/dosha type was Vata, but it was Pitta.You have spoken about that the body type and mind can differ. You for an example have said that your mindset is 99% Pitta. But Pitta isn't you dominant quality in your physical body constitution.I don't know if this question make senses but do you have any tips or ideas how a person can find out their"Dosha- Mindset"?I understand that self awareness is a big one here, but I think this is really interesting and I would love to hear your view on this type of question. Susan: Hi I wanted to know if you recommend the detox as a starting point for everyone, regardless of what health issues they're dealing with. I was diagnosed several years ago with Lyme disease and candida and my major symptoms now are chronic fatigue, brain fog and trouble staying asleep at night. Also, I'm 54 years old and going through menopause. I could lose around 5 pounds but I wouldn't want to lose much more than that. If I should start with the detox, would you suggest the 7, 14 or 21 days? Thank you Susan Mark:Hi Dr. Cabral, I have listened to hundreds of your podcasts and have learned so much from you. I appreciate the fact that you portion your time out in the endeavor of passing on the wealth of health knowledge you have gained over the decades to ensure more people can be helped. I can't thank you enough.I would like to ask you a question about a health issue my wife is having. First, some background: She is 71 years old, has had chronic back pain for 40 years and her pain has gotten the worse it has ever been this past year. Opioids no longer provide more than 5-10% of pain relief. She had an intrathecal pump implanted in her back a month ago. She is getting some better pain relief from the Prialt in the pump and has hopes that as the dosage of the Prialt is slowly raised, that she will get even more pain relief--enough to actually allow her to lead a more productive life and work on other health issues (gut) that have needed attention for years. Getting closer to the question: She had neck fusion surgery in 2010 that required her to be in the hospital for weeks. She was in a hospital bed for two weeks with no walking at all due to the intense post surgical pain. At the end of the two weeks, she had a Pulmonary Embolism that required a 14" blood clot be removed from her pulmonary artery. She was given a 5% chance of living through the emergency surgery and she beat the odds. She had no history of blood clots--we feel that she developed the clot from being bedridden for two weeks. She was put on Coumadin by her PCP and has continued to take it to this day. We have asked multiple conventional doctors if she needs to continue taking the blood thinner for life, and they never really answer the question. We assume they don't want to assume liability if she were told she could discontinue blood thinning medication but then formed another clot.. Here's the question: I'm not going to ask you if she could stop taking Coumadin. What I would like to ask you is if you have ever had this type of question come up with a past patient of yours, and if so, were you able to help your patient decide whether or not to stop taking a blood thinner, and what types of considerations did you discuss to make the decision? Any feedback would be most helpful. Thank you again for taking my question, and thank you for being the giving person that you are. Josh: What is more beneficial for a holistic diet approach, blueberries or cranberries? Therese: Hi,Just finished the candida and sibo protocol. Feeling much better! Going forward what supplements should I take to best support my digestive system. Thanks! Best,Therese Nick: H Dr Cabral,you have become the foundation for my health and wellness and I use you as a mentor to help me make the right choicesI have had 4 kids now and we have decided that that's enough, so I was looking into vasectomy's or natural options I listened to your house call 848 pod cast where it was touched on. What Iv taken from that is that although the procedure is 95% safe (1 in 2000 people have failure ) there are small failure risks with the procedure. Still you don't really want to be having operations if there's natural ways to do the same thing. you alluded to this in his pod cast, but didn't actually say what they were? just that any natural alternatives vs a physical operation would be better than having a vasectomy. I just hoped that he or you might be able to provide some info or a link on what the Natural alternatives are?Regards Nick Amanda: Cabral Team, I have really enjoyed listening to the podcast and hearing about the great work you all do. I am a 25 years old, female and was diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis at 18. I have been taking my prescribed dose of 4.8G Lialda Mesalamine daily my entire diagnosis. I’m hoping to be pointed in the right direction. My most recent blood work shows elevated levels of bilirubin in my liver and am concerned that my rain barrel is almost full. Many thanks, Amanda. Jay: Hi Dr Cabral. I am a professional athlete and I am wondering what you think about taking Essential Amino Acids for building muscle? Thanks!   Thank you for tuning into this weekend’s Cabral HouseCalls and be sure to check back tomorrow for our Mindset & Motivation Monday show to get your week started off right! - - - Show Notes & Resources:  http://StephenCabral.com/1241 - - - Dr. Cabral's New Book, The Rain Barrel Effect https://amzn.to/2H0W7Ge - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: http://CabralSupportGroup.com - - -   Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular Supplements: > “The Dr. Cabral Daily Protocol” (This is what Dr. Cabral does every day!) - - - > Dr. Cabral Detox  (The fastest way to get well, lose weight, and feel great!) - - - > Daily Nutritional Support Shake  (#1 “All-in-One recommendation in my practice) - - - > Daily Fruit & Vegetables Blend  (22 organic fruit & vegetables “greens powder”) - - - > CBD Oil  (Full-spectrum, 3rd part-tested & organically grown) - - - > Candida/Bacterial Overgrowth, Leaky Gut, Parasite & Speciality Supplement Packages - - - > See All Supplements: https://equilibriumnutrition.com/collections/supplements  - - -   Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Organic Acids Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Thyroid + Adrenal + Hormone Test  (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Adrenal + Hormone Test (Run your adrenal & hormone levels) - - - > Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Omega-3 Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - > Stool Test (Use this test to uncover any bacterial, h. Pylori, or parasite overgrowth) - - - > Genetic Test (Use the #1 lab test to unlocking your DNA and what it means in terms of wellness, weight loss & anti-aging) - - - > Dr. Cabral’s “Big 5” Lab Tests (This package includes the 5 labs Dr. Cabral recommends all people run in his private practice) - - - > View all Functional Medicine lab tests (View all Functional Medicine lab tests you can do right at home for you and your family)

Episode 393 with Ezra, Vic, Sarah and Josh What’s your leisure? What even is leisure? How then should we relax? How […]

Episode 393 with Ezra, Vic, Sarah and Josh What’s your leisure? What even is leisure? How then should we relax? How […]

Josh Pies is a real-world video marketing expert. If you’re ready to learn how to use video to market your business and look good in the process, then you need to stay tuned to this episode.  I've gotten to know Josh over the past year because we're in the same mastermind group, and I asked him to come onto the show to share how you and I -- everyday non-video people! -- can use the tools at our disposal to share better content on social media video. It doesn't matter if you use video for fun or for a business, you'll get some great insight on best-practices for social media video. Some questions I asked Josh: What tools do I need? I feel so behind compared to all these in-home studios that these other creators have. Everyone talks about DSLRs or other high-end cameras. What are your thoughts on that? Where do I even shoot videos in my house? How do I know what to say in my videos? What is the best "roadmap" for video creation? Josh has a suite of resources available here: smbfilmschool.com Josh's recommended tools: Gorilla Pod Ulanzi Smartphone Video Rig Aputure Mini Light on Camera Phone EPISODE CREDITS: If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Danny Ozment. Here’s an article he wrote about the benefits of podcasting: A Few More Podcasting Benefits Check it out and then schedule a FREE strategy call with him at the bottom of that page.

What villain is Josh? What is Tony's Starbucks order? Only one way to find out!

So the Quest for Freedom goes on. I know in this episode I was going to talk about some of the life changing moments that I experienced at New Frontiers and Enspiral Summerfest but given that this episode's name is called "Changing Plans", I've changed my plan for this week! And the reason for that is pretty simple. I've been tossing up between two completely different paths that I can take and as I mentioned to you when I started the Quest for Freedom, I did say there'd be an element of choose your own adventure in it. Now I'm pretty close to making this choice but there is still some sway here, some room for you to have your say. And so, today's episode is about why it's okay to change your mind. Why you can choose to change your mind and why you are free to change your mind. And of course as always I would love your feedback on this episode. It all kind of started recently. If I am really honest I've talked about this decision to take a business sabbatical this year and while I am still doing that, the business sabbatical itself has changed quite a lot in my mind. I think at the time I made that decision I was very much like, I am so over 7 or almost 7 years in business and I am over doing all these things and I am just wanting a break. And as I've stepped away from my business a lot of people have asked me, "How are you doing it". I am happy to explain that in this episode, but as I've removed myself bit by bit, I've realized it's actually pretty hard to remove yourself from your own business when your business IS you. When you are a personal brand. Had I chosen to go into the software development business, or a kind of a customized service that was part of a team and not dependent on me, it might have been way easier. But I realized that some of my stuff is actually flawed, because the key things that I guess I give to my business, that are sort of irreplaceable (and I am not saying that from an ego driven perspective at all), but the things that I bring to my business that nobody else can really replace are the social capital that I have. The relationships that I have with friends, with influencers, with partners, with companies who have been on this journey with me as I've grown my business, who have supported me along the way. Where we've done promotions together, we've partnered together on really cool education aspects and we've gotten to know each other at conferences, at events and experiences. And that's stuff that you just can't hand over to somebody else that's coming in to replace you. You can't just say, "Hey! Here's this awesome person that will be dealing with you now." It just doesn't really fully cut it. This is by no means me hanging on to my baby or holding on to my business. This is the reality of things. The things that drive revenue on my business all come down to relationships. I've even noticed a little in my community just with saying, "Hey! I am going to be on a sabbatical!", that people have been really supportive of it and saying things like, "Hey Natalie! That totally aligns with who you are and what you always preach to us." But I also feel there's been a little bit of a drop away from people in the community, like just this general dip, and I am going to be straight up honest here. - my business over the last couple of months took a bit of a dive. I think part of it was related to the brand new website, which was received extremely well. But changing hosting companies and SEO rankings kind of going down the toilet with that change ...well we always knew that there'd be this momentary aspect when some of the rankings would drop and things would decline but then they'd stabilize. We also switched over to all new systems ConvertKit, Teachable, Clickfunnels and while I think they've been an excellent change, there's just that hand over time, in that change over there's things clicking together and sticking together and working. And all of that combined being done all at the same time, kind of played havoc with the business. I think that in combination with the community kind of going "Where the heck is Natalie at?" in combination with 'energy in versus energy out'. I am a big believer that the more energy you put into something, the more energy you are going to get out. "If you do a half-hearted job, you'll get a half-hearted result. If you go all in, you'll get amazing results." And so I think those three sets of combinations all affected the business. And had you talked to me a couple of weeks ago, I might have said: "You know what? I am not sure I can take a business sabbatical". Things have kind of changed the minute I made that decision and made it public. Things changed - it was like my business said to me, "Well, if you are buggering off, I might bugger off too." So the good news is that recently things have started looking up again and stabilizing and you know, the business is pretty self-managing. My awesome, humble, nifty, agile and talented team are doing a great job. They know what they are doing. And I, as CEO and founder of my company, I am happy to step aside to a point, but I've also been somewhat reinvigorated (ironically) with the business. I still love my community. I still love what I do and I think just even the thought of taking a break from it gave me a break from it. Does that make sense? Have you ever experienced that in your business? Like when you kind of put everything in place to go 'I am going to step back for a bit', and you think about how is that going to feel and what it's going to look like. And you start removing yourself a little. You take a little less responsibility. You put more responsibility onto others. They do a great job. You see things starting to work and you just ease off a little bit and you place time and importance on other things: new networks, new relationships, new friendships, new areas of learning. And it's like you are already having a bit of a refresher. It's kind of like you are going on a mini holiday in real time. I guess that is what's happened to me in the last couple of weeks. So as I said I thought I'd bring in some snippets from New Frontiers, but I don't think this is the episode to do it in. I am going to bring that in in the next episode. Because today's topic is all about changing plans and why it's totally cool if you want to change your mind. And this is where I want to insert a little message from one my community members, Kim Morrisson, because she posted on my Facebook page the other day and I asked her to turn her comment into this audio message. So it could be included in this episode and here is what she said: "Hi Natalie, Kim Morrisson here from Portugal. First congratulations on your book deal, so exciting! I loved reading your original Suitcase Entrepreneur book. In your Facebook Live, you said that it's as if the world is opening up some fantastic new opportunities for you. And as a result you haven't rethink what your plans for this year might be. While I accept it, we need to plan in order to achieve our goals or we can drift aimlessly. Isn't being able to change exactly what freedom is all about? The ability to change direction, follow your heart, rather than stick to what you originally planned otherwise we are just locked into a world that we can't move from. After all, your lifestyle property was one of your goals anyway. Maybe not in your plan for this year but does that really matter? I believe that your true freedom is actually having the opportunity to choose what you want to do and the direction you're going. And that of course can change. I hope that helps." And I sat back and I thought, you know what Kim, you are actually right. Like I'm always attempting to do the right thing, to be a guide to others, to show people the way, to prove that you can do whatever you want, that you get to design your lifestyle and you get to design your business to support that lifestyle. And in doing so I kind of feel like I've become a little bit of my own poster child for be adventurous, be free, travel the world, do whatever you want. And one thing that I wanted most was just to: sort of settle, and be own a lifestyle property grow and develop my relationship with Josh have chickens and a dog and; BE in one place for a decent period of time and; experience my first winter in something like 7 years. I realized that was okay. That was more than okay, because that's what my heart desired. Yet somewhere in this bubble of my intuition, in my years of experience in building this brand of adventure and freedom, I thought that might not be okay. So thank you to Kim for bringing that up, and for the multitude of awesome people in my community and my friends and my networks, who have all been really supportive of this decision to step away from the business and to go on a business sabbatical. And so when you next hear from me, I might have some very exciting news. At this point of my time, I have two options: The first option, which I am going to tell you right now is the one that I thought I'd naturally be taking. At the start of the year I thought, "Great! I'll hand over, train people up, get the business to a point that come first of April, my birthday month, I am going to take that entire month off for sure (and probably several months after that). I am going to go to Bali and run my retreat. I am going to celebrate my birthday in Bali with my family and friends and then I am going to head on to Portugal and surf and read books. I am going to go to Tony Robbins in London. I am going to stay in Europe for summer. And then I'll come back to New Zealand, kind of like I do nearing summer. And just take it from there." Sounds tempting I know. And then the second option was, "No I am going to commit and I am going to stick around in New Zealand. And I am going to build a community in my hometown of Wellington, where I grew up, but actually don't really have a strong base of friends and people because I've been away for 10 years." That sounds really appealing. The sense of community on the ground. Not just globally, not just online and not just having to travel so far to meet people that I care about, but right here in my hometown. And I've been away long enough that that excites me. And then I thought I'd take that further like: What about business opportunities here? What about being on a co-founding team of a tech startup? What about creating other business opportunities? What about partnering with Josh? What about partnering with my sister? All these things that came into the light. What about living in one place for more than three months at a time? What about owning a place that feels like a real home? Not that my apartment in Wellington isn't awesome, but it's kind of.. I am a little bit in transition when I am here. I've had Airbnb guests all the time. I've been away a little bit and even though I have loved having it as a base because it's right in the heart of the city, it's awesome. But it's not a home with nature on your doorstep. It hasn't got animals right there. It's not a real home. It doesn't have a fireplace. You know? Not that you need a fireplace to have a real home but.. I don't know why I said that. So there are my two options. And if I was to allow you to choose my own adventure, I'd say this. If you'd like Natalie to head of to Bali and onto adventures in Portugal with surfing, lovely people, sunshine and the freedom to do whatever you want, turn to page 45. If you'd like Natalie to go into an adventure, spend all her money on a big lifestyle property that she has no idea how to handle, get a dog and some free range chickens, turn to page 72. I can almost hear you guys kind of going, "What the heck?". Those are two such different decisions... and they are. This relates back to probably the first episode where I talked about what is a quest? And even the second episode where I sort of talked about this paralysis by analysis. This paradox of choice that you actually need limitations in order to be free. Because when you have no limitations it can actually be quite devastating, which sounds so freaking ironic. But earlier this year when I had these big choices to make I was really in limbo. I was just wishing somebody would give me a limitation. Say to me, "Natalie you need to stay in New Zealand for a whole year." If somebody has said that to me I would be like, "Okay, great!". Now I have a limitation, what are my freedom aspects within that? What can I do within that limitation? And I was like, "Oh my God! I could explore all of New Zealand. There are so many things within this country." If they'd said, "Natalie, you have to stay in Wellington". I would have been like, "Great!". Even more of a limitation, but with so much freedom within that because the thing about limiting the number of decisions you have to make actually gives you more freedom. That's why Steve Jobs used to wear the exact same outfit to work everyday. So he didn't have to think about or make a decision or spend time on what his wardrobe was. That's why people like bodybuilders eat the same thing every single day, which might seem really odd to you and me and boring, but they know exactly what they are going to eat, they know how to prepare it. It's satisfying, it's nutritious, it's probably tasty, it's one less thing to think about. And I know when I was doing my body sculpting competition, I got into such a great routine being at the gym at 5:30 every single morning. Similar food every single day: chicken and broccoli, chicken and broccoli, eggs. It actually made it incredibly freeing, because if I think back on that time I had very few decisions to make and that freed up my time to be able to do more thinking, to engage more in the work that I was doing. It allowed me to be more present for people around me because I wasn't filled with, "Where do I need to travel next? What do I need to book? How do I book the accommodation? Who do I need to see? How do I get there? What should I pack? How can i do this? How can I do that? How do I run my business at the same time? Who do I need to speak to? What timezone am I on? Like seriously, it gets exhausting. First world problem I appreciate, but one that I am kind of ready to put a little hold on. I want fewer decisions. I want less freedom (weirdest thing ever but just stick with me). I want less freedom so that ultimately I have more freedom in the things that I really want to do. If that didn't really make sense to you I would love for you to listen to episode 4 where Connie and I talked about why freedom has dropped off her values list. It used to be number 1, it's not even on it anymore. We talked about why wanting freedom so much can actually make you a slave to it. Now I just want to bring your attention to a short snippet about how to think less and live more - analysis paralysis. And this is by Preston Smiles, who's a pretty big motivational guy on Youtube who does sort of beautiful poetry to get you to think about life abundantly. This one I thought was just so pertinent what I am discussing here. How to think less and live more, let's hit it: The key part I've included in my podcast audio is this: "You got to do something. You got to step up in your life and jump! So many people are sitting on the fence of life: watching and waiting and trying to figure out if it's time. Well, it's never going to be the right time. The right time is now. Now, now, now, now! Every time. Don't wait for the right job or the perfect mate or the right money. "I got to pay my mortgage off before I live". "I am going to take that trip two years from now when I get the right job". Live it now! Because you never know, you never know when that day comes. We all have an expiration date and I have seen it too many times where people die with the dance still in them. We don't want to die with our dance still in us. You want to die with it all out on the field. You want to know that you left it all out on the field."   So that's where I am at. I am at this point of the time is right, right now. I don't feel like I've ever been a person to hold back on life. I feel like I've lived it to the full but one thing I've noticed on my journey through adventuring around the world is this absolutely desire.. just hear me out on his.. to have a dog. I am a big animal lover and for those of you who have travelled with me, or been with me in person you will know that I pretty much stop and say hello to every single dog no matter what. Like I got ringworm from a dog in the Caribbean because I was patting this stray dog and I didn't realize I got that. But the point is you know, I am not afraid of dogs. I love them to bits and they just strike out this emotion of happiness in me and playfulness and abundance that I love. And I've realized it for the last couple of years I've been talking about, "Oh I'd really love a dog, but you can't travel with a dog when you're living out of a suitcase." And I thought about it in the last couple of months, around Christmas time and I was like, "Well, Nat, you get to make a choice here. If you really want a dog then you need to adapt your lifestyle to have one in it." And it's not like dogs are a huge problem that means you can never travel again. I have plenty of people that I've actually had as case studies in my book and on my blog who travel with their dogs every three months, they go somewhere different. They go through the immigration and the forms for the dog and they come with them. And I'm like, "Awesome!". You know, it's a bit more work but they get to have their lovable pooches with them. I've done house sitting where I've absolutely adored being with dogs and cats and any other animal. I was like, if you don't make time for this what if tomorrow never happened and you never had that opportunity to have a dog in your life again. I've had a dog once in my life for about a year when I bought my first house. I was a lot younger and it was just a lot of responsibility and I loved Zoe to bits, but I rehoused her with an awesome family and a little dog when I sold my house a year later. We had the coolest adventure year together. We were like best buddies. She is a beautiful dog, a Huntaway German Shepherd X, and just the lickiest, cuddliest dog in the world. But that was ages ago, that was 2002 and I thought about it and I was like, "Is my lifestyle actually stopping me from the very things that I want to be in it?". So dog is one of those things I want to be in it. The second thing that I want to be in it is nature. Nature on my doorstep. I want the ability to have a garden. I want to have an orchard. I would like to grow my own vegetables. I would like to get into organic farming. I would like to understand and learn more about permaculture, which came to my attention big time at New Frontiers. I would like to build tiny houses. You guys know I am a minimalist. I would really like to understand how to build a tiny house. I would like to put tiny houses on my land. I would like to help with the housing shortage around New Zealand and actually frankly, around the world. And this just stemmed into a bigger and bigger and bigger vision that all started with sticking around in one place and following my dreams. So did you choose page 45 or page 72? Let me know in the comments below. And now I am going to divulge a little secret, I may have put an offer on a lifestyle property with Josh on Monday night, February 27th. What the heck is a lifestyle property? A lifestyle property sounds really fantastic doesn't it? It sounds like you're just going to live the dream. You are going to have an awesome lifestyle. You are going to relax with your pool and your tennis court and your beautiful house and your block of land. But for most people who I know who are on a lifestyle property, it means you are taking on a project and a lot of work. So it might sound like you are going to sit back and relax and live the lifestyle but ultimately you are making a big decision. So the property that we have put an offer in is over a million dollars (Crazy!). It has over a hectare of land which is around 2.5 acres.. It has four bedrooms and two bathrooms and just beautiful space and a really lovely entertaining area and a deck built the whole way around it. It has ability to host family and friends which a the big thing on our must have list. It has a beautiful garden that can be even more beautiful if I get my hands on it and figure out how to garden. My mums an amazing gardener. And it has a massive barn/implementation shed which the minute I saw it. I was like, "Oh! Co-working space. Oh! Tiny house creation. Oh! Crossfit gym. Oh! Office. Oh! So many things. Art workshop. Oh! holding events and retreats. So you know whatever I look at here in my life is always a business element to it. And excitingly we saw this house on a Sunday. We put in an offer on the Monday. Our offer got shown on the Wednesday. It got accepted on the Friday. And it is subject to somebody else who has put an offer in the house who have to sell the property first. So at the time of this recording we get to hear one way or the other: whether we got it and the other contract was relinquished or whether we didn't. And either way I am okay, because this entire process of looking at properties, figuring out our wish list together of what's really important to Josh and I, of going through financial analysis of how to afford this - because that is a pretty big financial commitment, even for two people, has been great! Understanding the commitment behind this like looking after the land, tending to a vegetable garden, creating an orchard, having animals like chickens and dogs and maybe more, as well as maintenance on the house, maintenance on the land and furnishing a house that's a lot bigger than I am used to as a minimalist with really not much to my name - it's all quite the change. So pretty massive endeavor here, but I realized in this entire process of going through this analysis with Josh and doing a weighted matrix on what's important to us and non-negotiables and everything that we wanted if this was our dream property, has proven to me big time that I would drop everything in a heartbeat to have a lifestyle property in New Zealand right now. Right here, right now. Right here, right now. You know that song. If you don't know that song I am not just singing to myself. That is super exciting to me and I guess I just want to ask you this question right now is: What are you putting off or telling yourself that you think you want? When you might be wanting something entirely different. What are you not living up to in your life right now or pushing down the priority list because you think that you have to be a certain other way? Or you think that you should be dealing life in a different way. Or you think that you need to be supporting other people before you support yourself first. It's your Freedom plan. It's your quest for freedom. You have the right to change your mind. You have the right to choose. I choose lifestyle property. I choose creating a life with my partner Josh and all the exciting dreams that we've been scheming up. I choose to go on a shorter business sabbatical but I am still going to my sabbatical. I choose to run my business in the manner that fits me and still stay excited about it while stepping back from it. I choose to build a community in my home country. I choose to travel less for now. And I choose to be happy with my decision and to remain in the present. And as you know this whole quest in Season 1 is about personal freedom and for me that is very much coming back to being present, being mindful, being grateful, being happy and choosing the best version of freedom for me in this moment. And that's exactly what I want for you. So if you've enjoyed this, if you want to weigh in on this, If you want to help me choose my own adventure even though you pretty much know that I've made up my mind - then comment below and have your say! Plus tune in next week for hacking happiness. I'd like you to know that this episode is brought to you by the one and only DRIP! Are you looking to build your email list? If so, you need to check out nataliesisson.com/drip Drip is a powerful email and marketing automation platform that you can start using for FREE (so it's great for both startups and seasoned pros). Basically, you get "better than MailChimp" pricing. But you also get automation like Infusionsoft, that frees up your time and removes you from having to work inside your business all the time. With Drip's visual builder, you quickly and easily build funnels that would take you weeks inside of Infusionsoft. Best of all, this company was recently acquired by my good friend (and Leadpages founder) Clay Collins, so I got Clay to put together an exclusive deal for my Quest for Freedom Tribe. Check out nataliesisson.com/drip to see just how amazing Drip is and how it can help you build (and monetize) your audience. Remember, if you're just building your list, Drip is completely FREE... and I'm not talking "free trial" kinda free, it's just free. Free (forever), or at least until you have more than 100 contacts in your Drip account. That means you can start growing your list, try out marketing automation, and even send your first email broadcasts - all for free. Go to nataliesisson.com/drip to get your free Drip account. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Episode 134 “We Fire People Around Here…” 2:00 And We’re Live! Josh looks less grayish with his color correction filter. John says he wants overhead lighting to enhance his muscles. John says he is making progress with the decor of his office.  Derick talks about his behemoth desk move from an office to his apartment.  11:00 Derick talks about his week taking care of his family and is sick son, and the trial of getting back to work. Derick talks about taking a look at the homepage of Watch Me Code. Derick have been researching and making significant changes to his Watch Me Code homepage.  15:00 Derick mention redoing the framework for the website and reworking the backend of the page. Derick says he reinstated the monthly plans to some of the products on his page.  21:00 Josh talks about the positioning of some for the elements on the Watch Me Code website, this will help them navigate to the features and services. John mention that some of rate icons are broken on the webpage.  25:00 Josh thinks that Derick made some good improvements on his website. Josh says that he made good progress for not getting a whole lot of work done.  31:00 Derick talks about a blog post about he thoughts on a topic of a blog post. Derick talks about experimenting with post footers.  38:00 Chuck joins the call in between his conferences. John talks about getting attack on Twitter. Chuck talks about a couple past episodes he was getting flack on about his past contractor.  46:00 John says that you can not have your cake and eat it too. The EntreProgrammer’s forum is very unique and honest about the things they share. John is glad that Chuck brought on a real problem that they, as entrepreneurs are dealing with and they deal with it the best way possible. 53:00 Derick says that the EntreProgrammers are willing to make a mistake publicly, and this in turn should help people  in running a business. Chuck says they need to be open with the people they are open with.  1:02:00 Derick says that change is painful, and it sucks. John says they are here to service and genuinely love to help people. Instead, people should be judged on their real intentions.  1:10:00 Chuck says that he is done trying to be right, and he is going to be himself. At this point he is going to do the best he can. Chuck says he is going to piss more people off and be John.  1:15:00 John says to Chuck, your filth is public, and others peoples filth is private. Chuck share story about the things he sees in his personal life.  1:18:00 John says he hit that same point when he was polarizing. Josh says this is another part that develops him more. John says people would rather hear the honest truth. John says he is proud of Chuck to take this on.  1:22:00 John mentions that he is about to hit 40K subscribers on the Simple Programer youtube channel. John mention that Eli the Computer Guy is coming on the Simple Programmer.  1:27:00 Josh talks about his current video recording methods, as he build up his video production. Josh talks bout their last weekend at SumoConf. and a presentation on making their fee money back.  1:33:00 Josh says he is going to be looking for new ways reach people, something like an icebreaker to follow up with their audience. John talks about he experience with SumoConf.  1:39:00 Josh talks about a new tagline for his business. I teach Software Developers How to be Cool! Derick talks about his goal for the year is to do an attendee talk at Micro Conf. Derick say as soon as they open the submission, he is going to submit “ How to burn you house down to build a better one.”  1:45:00 John says that Derick is now able to handle bigger problems. John mentions the book Built to Sell by John Warrillow.  1:53:00 Derick talks about lasts year’s mad dash to gain subscribers. Derick is thinking about send out  another discount of 38 percent to celebrate his 38th birthday on Tuesday.  1:58:00 Josh talks about adding some features to help grow sales of products in incremental ways.  Josh and Derick talk about the prices tiers on their products. Josh talks about getting great feedback for Lewis, about selling a product.  2:06:00 Derick ask about investment that he may have missed, concerning more marketing. Derick ask if he should hold off till his finance are solid. Josh talks more about marketing strategies and sponsorship information. c Thoughts of the Week Derick - Burn your house down to build a better one. John -  Physical exhaustion is not good for you.. Sleep.  Josh - What can I do that won’t fail?

Episode 132 “Bridge Gapper” 2:00 We’re Live! Derick quotes the classic software developer movie “Office Space.” John talks about pissing off the internet again. John talks about the different views of a creationist or evolutionist on his youtube channel.  8:30 John says that the more you look into a “cracker jack” idea, there is some sort of compelling agreement.  13:00 Josh talks about the up coming censoring on YouTube. John again talks about the different scientific hypothesis of life, creation, or evolution. Josh talks about losing some subscribers on patreon.  19:00 John says that something that is scientific, doesn’t ave to be true. John talks about epigenetics and experimentation for induced results.  24:00 Derick finally gets to talk about his last two weeks. He mentions that he has a couple new subscribers, and somethings in the business are broken. Derick shares that he is seeing at least 10 people drop a month.  28:00 Derick thinks that he need to present his content in a more unique way, to help subscribers. Derick said that the material is there and that he need to help the subscribers see that material they need. Derick is getting help to learn how to present his material in a more simplified way.  31:00 Derick says that he feels that he has been throwing money away on marketing efforts. He is not sure what to do. Maybe go back to a monthly model as far as subscribing to his program. John thinks that Derick need to get his bookkeeping in order, to understand the expense on marketing efforts. This way, Derick can budget out the funds for marketing. Chuck thinks that Derick’s problem is customer retention or on boarding new subscribers.  37:00 John asks what is the one thing that Derick is good at. Josh talks about he purpose of niching down. The EntreProgrammers give their opinion about the direction Derick should take for acquiring more customers.  45:00 The EntreProgrammers talks about the strategies Derick should think about in order to present himself as being awesome.  52:00 John suggests offering some free content to lead to paid content. Chuck suggests having someone advocate for his products as the next step in advancing a programmer. Josh suggest doing a 4 week class to generate income. 59:00 John ask if Derick is shooting himself in the foot as the “bridge gapper.” Derick mentions that he does not know which decision to make on all the ideas available to him.  1:10:00 Josh suggest that more traffic is not the problem, but Derick should be analyzing data. John suggest that Derick should stop paying for marketing, and figure out who to make cash fast to get out of the trouble he is in, and then come up with the marketing and messaging plan.  1:23:00 Josh shares an example email with Derick to help understand that need of his customers. Derick ask it is worth to spend money on setting up Quickbooks. The EntreProgarmmers are planning to help Derick, by referring him to their network of marketers.  1:38:00 John suggest that Derick sign up for a subscription to quickbooks. Derick mention he is very close to quitting a clients project.  Derick does not want to work under this manager anymore.  1:48:00 Josh talk about his webinar this pass week, with 126 seat filled. Josh also mentions that he has to do some affiliate pay outs. Josh shares what work but for him when he does webinars and presentations.  1:54:00 Josh talks about having delayed email with SendGrid, right before the start of his email. Josh shares that he had a person ask for a refund, after he realized that he was not a good fit for the webinar.  2:03:00 John shows am example of Josh’s Simple Programmer business card. Chuck mentions that he is following Josh’s example of how to do a webinar. Chuck says he is still figuring out how to do these things with Thrive.  2:08:00 Chuck is talking about hiring a couple of people to help him, since Mandy is not working for him anymore. Chuck talks about a dilemma one one of his podcasts about race.  2:16:00 Chuck talks about how Josh had bought a webinar platform, and he waiting to see if it is worth it for him. Josh think so far it is probably worth the money.  Chuck mention talking about Webinar Jam.  Thought for the Week John - Explore a lot of crazy stuff, there is value in a lot of different things.  Chuck - Sometimes it really sucks.  Josh - What is the dent in your world.

“Sticker Cheap…” 2:00 John mentions trying to connect to the internet last week. John talk about his experiences in China. John talks about his trip or tours of China. John talks about the language barrier and the difficulties of communication during the trip.  7:30 John talks about the difference between Europe and China, and language barriers. John talks about the complexities of communication in China.  9:36 John thinks that China will rapidly surpass the US. in world power and growth in technology.  John talks about how their economics are based on entrepreneurship rather than conventional jobs.   11:59  John talk about how his book was #1 on amazon in China, and possibly translating Simply Programmer into Chinese.  15:00 John talks about gaining 10 t0 15lbs because he could not do any exercise. Panda Express everyday. John mentions that KCF is very popular in China. KFC everywhere!n John talks about the similarities in food to American from China.   20:00 Josh ask about the  safety in China. John says it was very safe and the evenings were busy.  John talks about the different cultures all over China. John share the dinning rituals in China and the different cultural practices. John shares the cheap prices of food.  35:00 John talks about the cost of living in parts of China.  36:00 Josh talks about the week he did not have John around. Josh shares that he did has been lightening up his workload. Josh share his work for the week while John was out on vacation to China.  43:00 Josh share some of his interest on the upcoming webinars his is doing.  Josh share his ideas for his webinar.  48:00 John asks Josh if he read the 10X Rule book. Josh talks about having a great month at Simple Programmer. Josh shares some numbers.  58:00 Josh and John talk about the Patreon project and fund. Josh talks about losing people on a course and possible ways to try to rebound numbers.  1:01:00 Chuck asks if the majority of sales come from product sales for Simple Programmer. Josh explains the multiple streams of income Simple Programmers is generating. John talks about the upcoming ideas for the new book sales and bundle type ideas.  1:11:00 Josh talks about actually taking a break and down consistent production over time.  1:15:00 Josh shares that he has been losing weight along with John and working out on consistent basis. Josh shares his workout plans.  1:21:00 John talks about the prescriptive workout. Chuck talks about getting back for training for boycott leaders. Chuck hires Podcast Motor for audio editing for some of Dev Chat Tv’s podcasts. Chuck spill the beans to Mandy about changing up the editing for the podcasts.  1:28:00 Chuck is working on automating stuff for his business. Chuck shares his ideas for working with Podcast Motor.  1:36:00 Chuck mention that his next sprint is working on the conferences are transferring work for podcast to Podcast Motor.  1:44:00 John talks about the 80 20 rule and having built up a revenue channel. Josh talks ways Chuck can promote his project.  Josh talks about being ask to teach a class or course.  1:50:00 John shares his he experience with the traveling and international date line. Thoughts for the Week John - Take a realistic assessment of where you are, and that is where you are.  Chuck - Sometime you have to make those tuff decisions.  Josh - What would this look like if it were easy.

There is not a place we can turn where current events are not effecting our every day lives. I feel incredibly honored to unveil the first episode of comic fuel to feature Ulises Fariñas and Lucy Bellwood as cohosts. Ulises and I jump right into the questions and geek out on what is important to think about when inking - both digital and traditional. We then go into great depth discussing "style" and how it is actually an incidental occurrence in your art as opposed to a measured goal. Lucy hops in during question three to talk about how to think about drawing background art in your panels. Ulises and I cap the entire episode off with a very important discussion regarding how race and equity is reflected in the comic industry. In fact, in writing the show notes for that segment, I was delighted to find several amazing articles that dealt specifically with how the comic industry is connecting to these important topics. This episode also includes some amazing borrow audio clips from Jason Brubaker, Ven. Robina Courtin, and art educator John Spencer. Such an amazing third episode. Easily the hardest I've worked on yet. Hopefully I can keep it up! [Tweet "ComicFuel Episode 3 was awesome!"] Let me know what you think of the show by tweeting @patrickyurick Please consider supporting us so that more episodes of the show can be released by donating at $1+ to the show on patreon: https://www.patreon.com/makingcomics Check out our Patreon explainer video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4TBhT_m2RQ As always - the entire show notes catalog is on the Comic Fuel Wiki: http://comicfuel.wikidot.com/wiki:episode-3 Jump times to go to different parts of the podcast: (00:00) Show Opener (00:43) Introduction to Show (10:10) #ComicFuel Break #1: Not A Delicious Chocolate Cake” by Ven. Robina Courtin (12:40) Question 1: Inking (24:40) #ComicFuel Break #2: “Growing A Tree” by Jason Brubaker (28:17) Question 2 & 3 Style (51:46) Patreon Ad (52:12) Questions 4: Backgrounds (54:58) #ComicFuel Break #3: “Can’t Live Without Art” by John Spencer (1:00:00) Show Closing - Race & Equity in the Comics Industry (01:23:00) How can you, yes you, contribute to the comic fuel cause? (01:26:00) Show Outro Questions answered in this episode (jump-to specific question times listed below) Josh: What are some good resources to improve your digital inking? I feel like I know the basics, so beginner books aren't really teaching me anything new. I'm completely self taught, and would love to learn some subtly with my inks. Maya: How do comic artists deal with improvements in their style while making a comic book? Should a comic artist keep a consistent style? If so, how much should one practice style before starting to make comics? Michael, Poland: What are the elements of style of particular artists if I want to use their style in my own work? I usually think of such elements as: the coloring method used (with computer or water colors), shading, …. but what is it that distinguishes the one from the other? There are general groups of artists (e.g. European, Asian, …) who have similar style - how come they can be grouped - what is the key? Jasmine: How often would you focus on comic backgrounds? Are details like that important? Thanks to this week's cohosts! Ulises Farinas His website Buño Amazing Forest Judge Dredd Lucy Bellwood lucybellwood.com lucybellwood.tumblr.com Lucy's Patreon facebook.com/baggywrinkles @LuBellWoo (Twitter/Instagram) And people can pre-order my new book as a softcover through Amazon here or get the hardcover directly from me here. Songs Used Patreon Info Segment:“Story To Fall Through” by Dr. Turtle, used under CC BY / Desaturated from original Intro & Outro Songs:“Unexpected Hoedown In Bagging Area” by Dr. Turtle, used under CC BY / Desaturated from original #Comic/Audio Fuel Segments

Josh Shenk - Want to be great? Then don't go at it alone. Throughout history teams of exactly 2 people have made the biggest impact - think Lennon and McCartney, Wozniak and Jobs, Orville and Wilbur Wright...the list goes on and on. But why? This week we crush the myth of the "lone genius" and learn how the best creations of all time came from people who worked in pairs. Josh Shenk, author of Powers of Two: Finding the Essence of Innovation in Creative Pairs, tells us not only why 2 is the magic number, but also how you can find your creative pair and start making history. Josh is a curator, essayist, and author. His magazine pieces include cover stories in Harper’s, Time, and The Atlantic, where his essay "What Makes Us Happy?" was the most read article in the history of that magazine’s website. His work has also appeared in Slate, The New Yorker, and The New York Times. His first book, Lincoln’s Melancholy, was named one of the best books of 2005 byThe New York Times, The Washington Post,and The Atlanta-Journal Constitution.. He is a curator, storyteller and advisor to The Moth; vice-chair emeritus of the board of directors, he currently serves on the general council. He is also a past director of the Rose O'Neill Literary House at Washington College, where he curated programs and festivals and directed a small literary press. Shenk consults to the Erikson Institute for Education and Research at the Austen Riggs Center, where he directs the Erikson Prize for Mental Health Media and Arts in Mind, a conversation series on the creative arts and psychology, co-hosted by the New School in New York City. "Creativity is not about being comfortable. It's about moving from where you are to something bigger.  It's all about the encounter of disparate things." - Josh Shenk Quotes from Josh: What we learn in this episode: What characteristics make two people compatible? Why is tension good for partners creative abilities? How does conversation play a key role in creativity? Why is a pair better than a trio? Resources: Powers of Two: Finding the Essence of Innovation in Creative Pairs www.shenk.net Twitter @joshuawolfshenk -- This episode is brought to you by: 99Designs: Go to 99designs.com/SMART to get a $99 Power Pack of services for FREE today! ting: mobile that makes sense. For $25 off your first device or a $25 credit, use smartpeople.ting.com and save money on your cell phone bill today!

Daniel Pink: To Sell is Human Daniel Pink is the author of several bestselling books on the changing world of work. He recently released his newest book, To Sell Is Human, which is also now a bestseller. In this episode, Daniel joins me to speak about his new book, to tell us what's changed about sales, and to explain why we're all in sales now...even leaders. Here are the questions I asked of Daniel: You make a strong case in the book is that sales has changed. What's changed? Most people I know assume that the best salespeople are extroverts. The research you've cited in your book says no. Why not? The use of sales scripts has been rampant in developing salespeople. You call sales scripts into question a bit in this book - so what can leaders and organizations do differently to develop their sales teams? You use the term "non-sales selling" to describe what a majority of us do in our work almost every day. One area your highlight is email subject lines. Why is the subject line so important and how does in matter in moving people? Community member question from Josh: What are some ways to dispel the stereotypical salesperson view so you can move onto effective selling and marketing? Community member question from Eveliina: What are the most important characteristics of a leader? Community member question from Jackie: From Peter Drucker....what do you want to be remembered for? What's a discovery you've made about yourself along the way that's contributed to your success? A bit more about Daniel's book: Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.

Daniel Pink: To Sell is Human Daniel Pink is the author of several bestselling books on the changing world of work. He recently released his newest book, To Sell Is Human, which is also now a bestseller. In this episode, Daniel joins me to speak about his new book, to tell us what's changed about sales, and to explain why we're all in sales now...even leaders. Here are the questions I asked of Daniel: You make a strong case in the book is that sales has changed. What's changed? Most people I know assume that the best salespeople are extroverts. The research you've cited in your book says no. Why not? The use of sales scripts has been rampant in developing salespeople. You call sales scripts into question a bit in this book - so what can leaders and organizations do differently to develop their sales teams? You use the term "non-sales selling" to describe what a majority of us do in our work almost every day. One area your highlight is email subject lines. Why is the subject line so important and how does in matter in moving people? Community member question from Josh: What are some ways to dispel the stereotypical salesperson view so you can move onto effective selling and marketing? Community member question from Eveliina: What are the most important characteristics of a leader? Community member question from Jackie: From Peter Drucker....what do you want to be remembered for? What's a discovery you've made about yourself along the way that's contributed to your success? A bit more about Daniel's book: Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.