Podcasts about Engagio

The CEO's Strategic Growth Edge: A Go-To-Market System That Scales“You don't need more leads—you need clarity. Clarity on where your business can grow the most, the fastest, and at the highest margin. That's what a real go-to-market system delivers. It's not about volume anymore—it's about alignment, focus, and making sure every team—marketing, sales, and customer success—is executing toward the same outcome. That's how CEOs scale with confidence.” That's a quote from Sangram Vajre, and a sneak peek at today's episode.Welcome to Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Kerry Curran—revenue growth expert, industry analyst, and relentless advocate for turning marketing into a revenue engine. Each episode, we bring you the strategies, insights, and conversations that help drive your revenue growth. So search for Revenue Boost in your favorite podcast directory and hit subscribe to stay ahead of the game.In The CEO's Strategic Growth Edge: A Go-to-Market System That Scales, I'm joined by bestselling author and GTM expert Sangram Vajre to discuss why go-to-market isn't a marketing tactic—it's a CEO-level growth system. In this episode, you'll learn the three phases every business must navigate to scale, why alignment beats activity in every growth stage, how CEOs can drive clarity, trust, and margin-focused decisions across teams, and why AI is only a threat if you're still riding the demand-gen horse.If you're a growth-minded CEO or exec, this episode gives you the roadmap and the mindset to scale faster, smarter, and stronger. Be sure to listen through to the end, where Sangram shares three key tips—his ultimate advice for any leader ready to level up their go-to-market strategy. Let's go!Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:00.77)So welcome, Sangram. Please introduce yourself and share a bit about your background and expertise.Sangram Vajre (00:06.992)Well, at the highest level, I feel like I've had the opportunity to be in the B2B space for the last two decades and have had a front-row seat to categories that have shaped how we think about go-to-market. I ran marketing at Pardot. We were acquired by ExactTarget and then Salesforce—that was a $2.7 billion acquisition. It was a huge shift in mindset, going from a $10 million company to a $10 billion one, and I learned a lot.I became a student of go-to-market, if you will. That was in the marketing automation space. Then I launched a company called Terminus, which has been acquired twice now. Along the way, I've written three books. The one we're going to talk a lot about is MOVE, which became a Wall Street Journal bestseller. That book has created a lot of opportunities and work for us.I walked into writing this book, Kerry, thinking I knew go-to-market because I had two $100M+ exits. But I walked out of the process a student of go-to-market because I learned so much. Writing it forced me to talk to folks like Brian Halligan, the CEO of HubSpot, and partners at VC firms who have seen 200 exits—not just the three I've experienced.It really expanded my vision. Now I lead a company called Go-To-Market Partners. We're a research and advisory firm focused on helping companies understand who owns go-to-market and how to run it at a transformational level. Our clients are primarily CEOs and executive teams. That's our focus.Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:46.094)Excellent. Well, I'm very excited to dive in. I first saw you speak at Inbound last fall, and what really resonated with me was the shift from just an ABM program to a company-wide GTM program—one that includes everything from problem-market fit all the way to customer success, loyalty, and retention. Really making GTM the core of revenue growth.So I'd love for you to dive in and share that framework and background.Sangram Vajre (02:23.224)Yeah. And by the way, for people who've never attended Inbound—you should. I've spoken there for eight years straight and always try to bring new ideas. Each year, they keep giving me more opportunities—from main stage to workshops. I think you attended the 90-minute workshop, right? Hopefully it wasn't boring!Kerry Curran, RBMA (02:48.61)Yeah, it was excellent. I love this stuff, so I was taking lots of notes.Sangram Vajre (02:52.814)That was fun. The whole idea was: how can you build your entire go-to-market strategy on a single slide? Now, people might think, “There's no way—you need way more detail.” But it's not about making it complete; it's about making it clear.So everyone can be aligned. For example, in the operating system we've developed, we write research about it every Monday in a newsletter called GTM Monday, read by 175,000 people. The eight pillars are based on the most important questions. And Kerry, I don't know if you'll agree, but I think I've done a disservice for two decades by asking the wrong question.Like, I used to ask, “Where can we grow?”—which sounds smart but is actually foolish. The better question is, “Where can we grow the most, the fastest, the best, at the highest margin?” That's the true business perspective. So the operating system is built around these eight essential questions.If every executive team can align on these—not with certainty, but with clarity—then they can gain a clear understanding of what they're doing, where they're going, who their ICP is, what bets they're making, and which motions to pursue. I've done this over a thousand times with executive teams, helping them build their entire go-to-market strategy on a single slide. And it's like a lightbulb moment for them: “Okay, now I know what bets we're making and how my team is aligned.” It's a beautiful thing.Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:50.988)Yeah, because that's one of the hardest challenges across business strategy and growth: where to invest, where to lean in. So bring us through the questions and framework.Sangram Vajre (05:01.688)Yeah. So the first one is “Where can you grow the most?” The second one is really about what we call the Market Investment Map. I'll give you maybe three or four so people can get an idea. The Market Investment Map is especially useful for companies with more than one product or more than one segment. This is the least used but most valuable framework companies should be using.You might remember from the Inbound talk—I used HubSpot as an example since I was speaking at Inbound. It's interesting because at my last company, Terminus, we acquired five companies in eight years. So we had to learn this process. The Market Investment Map is about matching your best segments to the best products to create the highest-margin offering.If your entire business focuses only on pipeline and revenue—which sounds right—you're actually focused on the wrong things. You may have seen people post on LinkedIn saying, “I generated $10 million in pipeline,” and then a month later, they're laid off. Why? Because that pipeline didn't matter. It might have been general pipeline, but if you looked at pipeline within your ICP—the customers your company really needs to close, retain, and expand—it might have only been half a million. That's not enough to sustain growth or justify your role.So, understanding the business is critical. It's not just about understanding marketing skills like demand gen, content, or design. Those are table stakes. You need to understand the business of marketing—how the financials work, how to drive revenue, and how to say, “Yeah, we generated $10 million in pipeline, but only half a million was within ICP, so it won't convert or drive the margin we need.” That level of EQ and IQ is what leaders need today.Our go-to-market operating system goes deep into areas like this.Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:31.022)And I love the alignment with the ICP. I'm sure you'll get deeper into that. I also know you talk about getting rid of MQLs because the real focus should be on getting closer to the ICP—on who's actually going to drive revenue.Sangram Vajre (07:45.892)Yeah. John Miller, a good friend who co-founded Marketo, has been writing about this too. I was the CMO of Pardot. Then we both built ABM companies—I built Terminus; he built Engagio, which is now part of Demandbase. We've been evangelizing the idea of efficient marketing machines for the last two decades.We're coming full circle now. That approach made sense in the “growth at all costs” era. But in this “efficient growth” era, everything can be measured. The dark funnel is real. AI can now accelerate your team's output and throughput. So we have to go back to first principles—what do your customers really want?I was in a discussion yesterday with executives and middle managers, and the topic of AI came up. Some were worried it would take their jobs. And I said, “Yes, it absolutely will—and it should.” I gave the example I wrote about recently: imagine you were the best horseman, with saddles, barns, and a generational business built around horses. Then Henry Ford comes along with four wheels. You just lost your job—not because you were bad, but because you got infatuated with the horse, not with your customer's need to get from point A to point B.Horses did that—it was better than walking. But then came cars, trains, airplanes. Business evolves. If you focus on your customers' needs—better, faster, cheaper—you'll always be excited about innovation rather than afraid of it. So yes, AI will replace anyone who stays on their horse. If you're riding the demand gen horse or relying only on content creation, a lot is going to change. Get off the horse, refocus on customer needs, and figure out how to move your business forward.Kerry Curran, RBMA (10:21.708)Yeah. So talk a bit about honing in on the ICP. I know in one of the sessions you asked, “Who's your target audience?” And of course, there was one guy in the front row who said, “Everyone,” and we all laughed. But I still hear that all the time. Talk about how important it is, to your point, to know your customer and get obsessed with what they need.Sangram Vajre (10:45.56)Yeah. So the first pillar of the go-to-market operating system is called TRM, or Total Relevant Market. We introduced that in the book MOVE for the first time. It's a departure from TAM—Total Addressable Market—which is what that guy in the front row was referring to during that session. It was epic, and I think he was a sales leader, so it was even funnier in a room full of marketers.But it's true—and real. He was being honest, and I appreciated that. The reality is, we've all been conditioned to focus on more and more—bigger and bigger markets. That makes sense if you have unlimited funds and can raise money. It makes sense if the market is huge and you're just trying to get in and have more people doing outbound.As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago, we did a session where someone said something profound that I'll never forget. He said, “The whole SDR function is a feature bug in the VC model.” That was fascinating—because the whole SDR model was built to get as many leads as possible, assign 22-year-olds to make cold calls, and push them to AEs.We built this because it worked on a spreadsheet. If we generate 1,000 leads, we need 50 callers to convert them. It's math. But nobody really tried to improve it because we had the money. Now we're in a different world. We have clients doing $10–15 million in revenue with five-person teams automating so much.People don't read as many automated emails. My phone filters out robocalls, so I never pick up unless it's someone I know. Non-personalized emails go into a folder I never open. Yet people keep sending thousands of them, thinking it works.For example, I send our GTM Monday newsletter via Substack. It's free for readers, and it's free for me to send—even to 175,000 people. Meanwhile, marketers spend thousands every time they email their list using legacy tools. Why? Because these people haven't opted in to be part of the journey the way Substack subscribers have.The market has changed. Buying big marketing automation tools for $100,000 is going to change drastically. Fractional leaders and agencies will thrive because what CEOs really need is people like you—and frameworks like a go-to-market operating system—to guide them. You and I have the gray hair and battle scars to prove it. What matters now is using a modern framework, implementing it, and measuring outcomes differently.Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:08.11)Yeah, you bring up such a valid point. In so many of my conversations, I see the same thing. It's been a sales-led growth strategy for years. Investments went to sales—more BDRs, more cold emails, more tech stack partners.Even as I was starting my consultancy, I'd talk to partners or prospects who'd say, “Well, we just hired more salespeople. We want to see how that goes.” But to your point, without the foundational framework—without targeting the right audience—you're just spinning your wheels on volume.Sangram Vajre (15:06.318)Exactly. One area we emphasize in our go-to-market operating system is differentiation. Everyone's doing the same thing. Let me give you an example. Last week, I looked at a startup's email tool that reads your emails and drafts responses automatically. Super interesting. I use Superhuman for email.Two days later, Superhuman sent an email saying they'd launched the exact same feature. So this startup spent time and money building a feature, and Superhuman—already with a huge user base—replicated and launched it instantly. That startup is out of business.With AI, product development is lightning fast. So product is no longer your differentiator. Your differentiation now is how you tell your story, how quickly you grab attention, how well you build and maintain a community. That becomes your moat. Those first principles matter more than ever. Product is just table stakes now.Kerry Curran, RBMA (16:33.878)Right. And connecting that to your marketing strategy, your communication, your messaging—it also sets up your sales team to close faster. By the time a prospect talks to a rep, your marketing has already educated them on your differentiation. So talk more about the stages and what companies need to keep in mind when applying your go-to-market framework.Sangram Vajre (17:07.482)One of the things we mention in the book—and go really deep into in our operating system—is this 3P format: Problem-Market Fit, Product-Market Fit, and Platform-Market Fit. We believe these are the three core stages of a business. I experienced them firsthand at Pardot, Salesforce, and Terminus through multiple acquisitions.If you remember, I always talk about the “squiggly line,” because no company grows up and to the right in a straight line. If you look at daily, weekly, or monthly insights, there are dips—just like a stock market chart. So the squiggly line shows you can go from Problem to Product, but you'll experience a dip. That's normal and natural. Same thing when you go from Product to Platform—you hit a dip. Those dips are what we call the “valleys of death.”Some companies overcome those valleys and cross the chasm, and others don't. Why? Because at those points, they discover they can market and sell, but they can't deliver. Or maybe they can deliver, but they can't renew. Or maybe they can renew but not expand. Each gap becomes a value to fix in the system.And it's hard. I've gone from $5 million to $10 million to $15 million, all the way to $100 million in revenue—and every 5 to 10 million increment brings a new set of challenges. You think you've got it figured out, and then you don't—because everything else has to change with scale.I'll never forget one company I was on the board of—unfortunately, it didn't make it. The CEO was upset because they were doing $20 million in revenue but didn't get the valuation they wanted. Meanwhile, a competitor doing only $5 million in revenue in the same space got a $500 million valuation. Why? Because the $20M company was doing tons of customization—still stuck in Problem-Market Fit. The $5M company had reached Product-Market Fit and was far more efficient. Their operational costs were lower, and their NRR was over 120%.If you've read some of my research, you know I'm all in on NRR—Net Revenue Retention—as the #1 metric. If you get NRR above 120%, you'll double your revenue in 3.8 years without adding a single new customer. That's what executives should focus on.That's why we say the CEO owns go-to-market. All our research shows that if the CEO doesn't own it, you'll have a really hard time scaling.Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:23.992)That makes so much sense, because everything you're talking about—while it includes marketing functions—is really business strategy. It needs to be driven top-down. It has to be the North Star the whole company is paddling toward.I've been in organizations where that's not the case. And as you said, leadership has to have the knowledge and strategic awareness to navigate those pivots—those valleys of death. So talk about how hard it is to bring new frameworks into an organization and the change management that comes with that. As you evangelize the idea that the CEO owns GTM, what's resonating most with them?Sangram Vajre (21:26.456)Great question. First of all, CEOs who get it—they love it. The people who struggle most are actually CMOs and CROs because they feel like they should be the ones owning go-to-market. And while their input is critical, they can't own it entirely.In all our advisory work, Kerry, we mandate two things:The CEO must be in the room. We won't do an engagement without that. The executive team must be involved. We don't do one-on-one coaching—because transformation happens in teams.People often get it wrong. They think, “We need better ICP targeting, so that's marketing's job.” Or, “We need pipeline acceleration—let sales figure that out.” Or, “We have a retention issue—fire the CS team.” No. The problem isn't a department issue—it's a process and team issue.The CEO is the most incentivized person to bring clarity, alignment, and trust—the three pillars of our GTM operating system. They're the ones sitting in all the one-on-one meetings, burning out from the lack of alignment. The challenge is most CEOs don't know what it means to own GTM. It feels overwhelming.So we help them reframe that. Owning doesn't mean running GTM. It means orchestrating clarity, alignment, and trust. Every meeting they lead should advance one of those. That's the job. When the ICP is agreed upon, marketing should be excited to generate leads for it. Sales should be eager to follow up. CS should be relieved they're not getting misaligned customers. That's leadership. And there's no one more suited—or incentivized—to lead that than the CEO.Kerry Curran, RBMA (24:08.11)Absolutely. And the CFO plays a key role too—holding the purse strings, understanding where the investments should go.Sangram Vajre (24:20.622)Yes. In fact, in the book and in our research, we emphasize the importance of RevOps—especially once a company reaches Product-Market Fit and moves toward Platform-Market Fit.If you're operating across multiple products, segments, geographies, or using multiple GTM motions, the RevOps leader—who often reports to the CFO or CEO—becomes critical. I'd say they're the second most important person in the company from a strategy standpoint.Why? Because they're the only ones who can look at the whole picture and say, “We don't need to spend more on marketing; we need to fix the sales process.” A marketing leader won't say that. A sales leader won't say that. You need someone who can objectively assess where the real bottleneck is.Kerry Curran, RBMA (25:17.836)Yeah, that definitely makes so much sense. Are there other areas—maybe below the executive team—that help educate the company from a change management perspective to gain buy-in? Or is it really a company-wide change?Sangram Vajre (25:33.742)Yeah, you mentioned ABM earlier. Having written a few books on ABM and building Terminus, we've seen thousands of companies go through transformation. We now have over 70,000 students who've gone through our courses. I love getting feedback.What's interesting is that ABM has been great for aligning sales and marketing—but it hasn't transformed the company. Go-to-market is not a marketing or sales strategy. It's a business strategy. It has to bring in CS, product, finance—everyone.Where companies often fail is by looking at go-to-market too narrowly—like it's just a product launch or a sales campaign. That's way too myopic. Those companies burn a lot of cash.At the layer below the executive team, it gets harder because GTM is fundamentally a leadership-driven initiative. An SDR, AE, or director of marketing typically doesn't have the incentive—or business context—to drive GTM change. But they should get familiar with it.That's why we created the GTM Operating System certification. Hundreds of professionals have gone through it—including you! And now people are bringing those frameworks into leadership meetings.They'll say, “Hey, let's pull up the 15 GTM problems and see where we're stuck.” Or, “Let's revisit the 3 Ps—where are we today?” Or use one of the assessments. It's pretty cool to see it in action.Kerry Curran, RBMA (27:35.758)Yeah, and it's extremely valuable. I love that it's a tool that helps drive company-wide buy-in and educates the people responsible for the actions. So you've shared so many great frameworks and recommendations. For those listening, what's the first step to get started? What would you recommend to someone who's thinking, “Okay, I love all of this—I need to start shifting my organization”?Sangram Vajre (28:09.082)First, you have to really understand the definition of go-to-market. It's a transformational process—not a one-and-done. It's not something you define at an offsite and then forget. It's not owned by pirates. It's iterative. It happens every day.Second, the CEO has to be fully bought in. If they don't own it, GTM will run them. If you're a CEO and you feel overwhelmed, that's usually why—you're running go-to-market, not owning it.Third, business transformation happens in teams. If you try to build a GTM strategy in a silo—as a marketer, for example—it will fail. The best strategies never see the light of day because the team isn't behind them. In GTM, alignment matters more than being right.Kerry Curran, RBMA (29:27.982)Excellent. I love this so much. Thank you! How can people find you and learn more about the GTM Partners certification and your book?Sangram Vajre (29:37.476)You can go to gtmpartners.com to get the certification. Thousands of people are going through it, and we're constantly adding new content. We're about to launch Go-To-Market University to add even more courses.We also created the MOVE Book Companion, because we're actually selling more books now than when it first came out three years ago—which is crazy!Then there's GTM Monday, our research newsletter that 175,000 people read every week. Our goal is to keep building new frameworks and sharing what's possible. Things are changing so fast—AI, GTM tech, everything. But first principles still apply. That's why frameworks matter more than ever.You can't just ask ChatGPT to “give me a go-to-market strategy” and expect it to work. It might give you something beautifully written, but it won't help you make money. You need frameworks, team alignment, and process discipline.And I post about this every day on LinkedIn—so follow me there too!Kerry Curran, RBMA (30:54.988)Excellent. Well, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation, and I highly recommend the book and the certification to everyone. We'll include all the links in the show notes.Thank you, Sangram, for joining us today!Sangram Vajre (31:09.284)Kerry, you're a fantastic host. Thank you for having me.Kerry Curran, RBMA (31:11.854)Thank you very much.Thanks for tuning in to Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast. I hope today's conversation sparked some new ideas and challenged the way you think about how your organization approaches go-to-market and revenue growth strategy. If you're serious about turning marketing into a true revenue driver, this is just the beginning. We've got more insightful conversations, expert guests, and actionable strategies coming your way—so search for us in your favorite podcast directory and hit subscribe.And hey, if this episode brought you value, please share it with a colleague or leave a quick review. It helps more revenue-minded leaders like you find our show. Until next time, I'm Kerry Curran—helping you connect marketing to growth, one episode at a time. See you soon.

This week we chat with Grant Grigorian, a long-time friend of mine and founder of Mogi.ai, to explore whether AI is actually a game-changer for data analytics. We examine what's broken in the current landscape of data analytics, the complex world of marketing attribution, and the “last mile of analytics” problem (that is., how do you get business users to actually read and use the analyses you produce). Then we dive very deep into practical applications of AI for data analysis, looking at concrete examples to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of large language models (LLMs) and contrasting them with traditional machine learning approaches. In closing, Grant reflects on the future of data careers in the age of AI. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that's slick, modern and beautiful. When they're done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it's got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest A startup guy who loves B2B marketing technology, analytics, and AI, Grant Grigorian is a serial entrepreneur. Coming from an operations background, Grant founded Path to Scale, a marketing analytics company, that sold to Engagio (later acquired by DemandBase). Today he's the CEO and co-founder of Mogi, an app that simplifies marketing data analysis by automatically delivering insights and recommendations to your team.https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantgrigorian/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:06] - What's broken in data analytics[08:45] - Using data to justify marketing's existence[18:15] - Analyzing marketing tactics[24:39] - The “last mile of analytics” problem[28:56] - Strengths and weaknesses of LLMs to extract insights from data[45:49] - Difference between LLMs and machine learning[50:37] - The importance of context for AI[54:39] - Impact of AI on data careers[1:00:07] - Motivations as a repeat founderThanks to Our SponsorMarketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget. Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning. It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number. Get your free copy now: Uptempo Planning Guide Resource LinksMogi.ai Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!Embark on a journey through the dual worlds of Tom Keefe—by day, a dedicated Director of Marketing Operations at Engagio; by night, a savvy MarTech consultant with an entrepreneurial spirit. This episode peels back the layers of moonlighting in the marketing tech space, as Tom generously shares his playbook for balancing a full-time career with the thrills and spills of consulting. From the meticulous establishment of an LLC to the intricate dance with tax considerations, he lays bare the essential steps for those who dare to tread the path of simultaneous employment and self-employment. Get ready to absorb wisdom on boundary-setting, the art of time management, and the cultivation of personal growth through customer interactions that only a seasoned professional like Tom could impart.As the conversation waxes strategic, Tom dives deep into the economics of consulting, breaking down the pros and cons of retainer agreements and hourly billing with the finesse of an industry maestro. Whether you're navigating diverse industries, collaborating with agencies, or standing your ground on pricing, his insights illuminate the consulting sphere with precision and practicality. Discover how to value your expertise, manage your consulting workload alongside a demanding job, and why learning to adjust rates in line with project complexities is the linchpin of success. Tom doesn't shy away from the financial gymnastics of freelancing either, tackling the complexities of accounting for the absence of employer benefits and striking that delicate balance between earning and saving. Tune in for an episode rich with guidance for both the MarTech novice and the seasoned consultant alike.Episode Brought to You By MO Pros The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals Meet Jeto, your new Marketo campaign co-pilot!Jeto is an application that centralizes all your campaign intake into a single place by allowing marketers to easily create, launch, and manage campaigns without stepping foot in Marketo. The best part is that it also fully automates the Marketo program builds, enforces governance, and integrates with your entire martech stack.Ready to cut costs, speed up your campaigns, and make marketing operations a breeze? MOps-Apalooza is back by popular demand in Anaheim, California! Register for the magical community-led conference for Marketing and Revenue Operations pros.Support the show

In this episode of Virtually Live! The Podcast, Nohar Zmora, VP Brand and Strategic Marketing at Kaltura, sits down with Jon Miller, MarTech Entrepreneur and Co-founder of Marketo & Engagio, to explore the future of B2B marketing. Jon shares his fascinating journey from studying physics to becoming a prominent figure in the marketing world, highlighting how his analytical background has shaped his approach to modern marketing. The conversation dives deep into the evolution of traditional B2B marketing tactics, emphasizing the need for strategies that align with today's rapidly changing buyer expectations and economic realities. They also discuss the transformative role of AI in marketing, particularly how it can automate complex operations, empower marketers to make more informed decisions, and drive more efficient campaign execution. Whether you're a seasoned marketing leader or just starting out, this episode offers valuable insights to help you stay ahead of the curve and confidently navigate the future of B2B marketing. Tune in now, and don't forget to subscribe for more expert discussions!

Summary Jon Miller, pioneer, market maker, thought leader and the OG of MarTech joins Dan for over 60 minutes of engaging dialogue and new revelations. The conversation covers the journey of Marketo, the emergence of marketing automation solutions, the challenges faced, and the eventual merger with Demandbase. It also delves into the creation of Engagio and the lessons learned from early success. The themes include Marketo's market entry, product development, category expansion, leadership impact, and the evolution of ABM solutions. The conversation covers Jon Miller's career journey, the merger of DemandBase and Engagio, the changing landscape of marketing, the impact of AI on marketing, and the definition of success. Jon shares insights on thought leadership, personal branding, and the evolving role of marketing in the modern era. Takeaways Marketo's success was driven by the right positioning, a good product, and strong sales and marketing execution. Early success can lead to an overly rosy signal of product-market fit, and it's important to be cautious of early signals. The evolution of ABM solutions and the need for a full ABM platform that covers the entire spectrum of ABM capabilities. The impact of leadership changes on marketing performance and the importance of having the right leadership in key positions. Lessons learned from the creation of Engagio and the challenges faced in building a new company after early success. The eventual merger of Engagio with Demandbase and the vision of combining the strengths of both platforms to create a comprehensive ABM solution. Jon Miller's career journey and the merger of DemandBase and Engagio The changing landscape of marketing and the impact of AI Insights on thought leadership and personal branding The evolving role of marketing in the modern era Jon Miller's definition of success Chapters 00:00 The Market Entry and Success of Marketo 03:30 Product Development and Category Expansion 07:03 The Impact of Leadership and Early Success 13:45 Lessons Learned from Engagio and Building a New Company 27:14 Navigating the Marketing Landscape: Jon Miller's Career Journey 30:49 The Impact of AI on Marketing: Changing the Game 34:30 Thought Leadership and Personal Branding in the Modern Era 41:03 Redefining Marketing: The Evolving Role and Future 53:30 Defining Success: A Moving Bar

Episode Summary:  In this episode, hosts Ken Roden and Erin Mills dive into marketing operations and analytics and discuss how generative AI is transforming MOPs. They share personal experiences with AI, such as using ChatGPT to solve tech issues and uploading personas for board meetings. Then, Ken and Erin talk to Grant Grigorian, a marketing operations expert and CEO of Mogi Technologies. Grant discusses the current applications of generative AI in marketing operations and the potential for AI to enhance reporting and decision-making. He emphasizes the importance of data literacy and the role of generative AI in democratizing data. Grant also shares insights on the future of AI in marketing and the challenges and opportunities it presents. 00:28 Real-Life AI Applications in Marketing 03:26 Exploring AI in Marketing Operations 04:05 Interview with Grant Gregorian: AI in Marketing Ops 08:00 Generative AI and Data Democratization 21:12 The Challenge of Data Overload 21:46 Key KPIs for Marketing Operations 23:29 Integrating AI into Marketing Strategies 26:42 Generative AI's Impact on MarTech 32:55 Practical AI Tips and Future Insights   Key Takeaways: The power of generative AI lies in its ability to explain and verbalize data, making complex data accessible and actionable for marketers. The future of marketing operations involves personalized communication and tailored insights based on individual data literacy levels. AI can enhance customer journey mapping by providing insights into customer behavior and predicting the best-case customer journey. The integration of generative AI into the MarTech landscape will lead to increased content ideation, data analysis, and personalized communication.   About our Guest: Grant Grigorian is the co-founder and CEO of Mogi Technologies, a tool that simplifies marketing data analysis and delivers actionable insights and recommendations to marketing teams. With over a decade of experience in marketing analytics, Grant has a deep understanding of marketing operations and the power of data. Prior to Mogi, Grant worked at Engagio as the Director of Product Management, where he helped define customer journeys and track account stages. He also co-founded Path to Scale, a company focused on multi-touch attribution modeling, which was later acquired by Engagio. Grant is known for his expertise in marketing operations and his ability to demystify complex data analytics.   Notable Quotes: "Generative AI gives us a chance to create data literacy across our teams." - Grant Grigorian "We're sitting on huge amounts of data, but we lack the vocabulary to explain and interpret it effectively." - Grant Grigorian "Generative AI can help marketers at all levels of expertise by providing insights and recommendations tailored to their needs." - Grant Grigorian   Resources: Grant Grigorian on LinkedIn Mogi Technologies To listen to the full episode and stay updated on future episodes, visit the FutureCraft Marketing Podcast. Please subscribe and give us a review if you enjoyed today's content. Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered advice. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are our own and do not represent those of any company or business we currently work for/with or have worked for/with in the past. Music: Far Away - MK2

Sales Tech Deep Dive with Jon MillerRevolutionizing the B2B Revenue Playbook: Insights from Jon Miller on the Future of Sales and Marketing and Nicolas de Kouchkovsky of CaCube Consulting. In a rapidly evolving B2B landscape, traditional sales and marketing strategies are facing unprecedented challenges. In this week's Sales Tech Deep Dive, we feature insights from industry legend Jon Miller, of Marketo, Engagio (later Demandbase), and a pioneer in demand generation and account-based marketing.Jon delves into the critical need for a paradigm shift in the B2B revenue playbook. Amidst the backdrop of technological advancements and changing buyer behaviors, we explore the limitations of conventional approaches, highlighting the increasing difficulty in capturing and retaining customer attention through traditional lead-based methods. Jon articulates the importance of aligning sales and marketing efforts with the modern buyer's journey, emphasizing the strategic role of brand reputation, personalized customer experiences (ABX), and the intelligent application of AI in crafting more effective and meaningful engagements. As the B2B sector stands at the cusp of significant transformation, this session provides a valuable roadmap for navigating the complexities of today's market dynamics, ensuring organizations are poised to thrive in the competitive landscape ahead.

This week, we're joined by Jon Miller, (Prev: Co-Founder/CMO of Marketo, Cofounder/CEO of  Engagio, CMO of Demandbase), who shares his hard-won insights on all things marketing and MarTech. Jon has made a dynamic and innovative career out of identifying big opportunities in MarTech and has built some of the most iconic brands in the space. We talked at length about how B2B marketing and sales have changed and continue to evolve and how teams need to operate to win in today's market, including leveraging the power of community, positioning, brand, and AI.Join us as we discuss:Effective strategies for entering market categories filled with established playersHow companies can position themselves as trusted authorities in their industryCurrent challenges and opportunities for marketers And much more. 

B2B Marketing can be broadly grouped into eras based on specific go-to-market strategies that were dominant at the time. Today's guest played a pivotal role in the development of not just one but two (!) of these era-defining strategies: lead generation / content marketing and account-based marketing (ABM).Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that's slick, modern and beautiful. When they're done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it's got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Jon Miller was the co-founder and first CMO of Marketo, CEO of Engagio, and CMO of DemandBase. From Jon's LinkedIn: "Jon has played a pivotal role in shaping the world's most disruptive marketing technology platforms, with a focus on thought leadership, category creation, and strategic go-to-market."https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2/Key Topics[01:30] - Founding of Marketo, positioning against Eloqua[05:25] - Jon's early use of content marketing, around the same time as Hubspot. Definitive Guides. [10:45] - Marketo's early revenue process. Lead scoring. SDR qualification. [13:50] - Issues with the lead generation model. [21:13] - Rise of ABM. Founding of Engagio. Relationship with Terminus and DemandBase. Flip My Funnel. Acquisition of Engagio. [29:06] - Effectiveness of ABM. Challenges. Importance of seeing ABM as a spectrum vs. a binary. [34:05] - Jon's axioms of marketing[35:50] - Development of marketing operations. RevOps. What marketing operations needs to do to be more strategic. [45:05] - What's next in GTM? Potential impact of AI. Resource LinksThe Marketing Playbook I Helped Create Doesn't Work Anymore. Here's the New B2B Marketing Playbook. - Jon's article on the issues with the lead generation playbook he helped create. Learn MoreDiscuss this episode over at the Revops FM SubStack community: LinkedIn - General

Account Based Marketing   Stell dir vor, du könntest deine Marketing- und Vertriebsbemühungen so präzise steuern, dass du genau die Kunden ansprichst, die dein Unternehmen zum Erfolg führen. Diese Vision ist keine Utopie, sondern die Realität des Account Based Marketing (ABM). In diesem Artikel erfährst du, wie ABM die Art und Weise, wie du Kunden akquirierst und bindest, revolutioniert.   Was ist ABM?   Account Based Marketing (ABM) ist eine Methode in der Kundenakquise, bei der Marketing- und Vertriebsteams eng zusammenarbeiten, um gezielt ausgewählte Zielkunden anzusprechen. Im Gegensatz zur herkömmlichen Massenwerbung konzentriert sich ABM auf die individuelle Ansprache von Kunden.   Was ist daran neu und was nicht?   Die Idee, Kunden gezielt anzusprechen, ist nicht neu. Doch was ABM revolutioniert, ist die Präzision und Tiefe der Kundenansprache. Es handelt sich um eine nachhaltige und koordinierte Strategie, die sich auf langfristige Kundenbeziehungen fokussiert. ABM integriert alle Teams in den Prozess der Kundenakquise und -bindung.   Beispiele und Fallstudien   ABM hat sich in verschiedenen Branchen bewährt. Beispiele wie Snowflake oder Billing Tree zeigen, wie ABM den Umsatz steigern und die Kundenbindung stärken kann. Diese Unternehmen haben erfolgreich Zielkunden identifiziert und maßgeschneiderte Ansätze entwickelt, um sie zu gewinnen.   Für wen ist es geeignet?   ABM ist besonders für B2B-Unternehmen geeignet, die komplexe Verkaufszyklen, große Deal-Volumes und Kunden mit Entscheidungskomitees haben. Es ist auch ideal für Unternehmen mit begrenztem Marketingbudget, die sicherstellen möchten, dass ihre Ressourcen effizient genutzt werden.   Was kann man für sich rausholen, gewinnen?   Mit ABM können Unternehmen ihre Erfolgschancen steigern, indem sie sich auf die Kunden konzentrieren, die am wahrscheinlichsten hohe Umsätze generieren werden. Dies führt zu höherem ROI, Umsatzpotenzial und stärkerer Kundenbindung. Instrumente   ABM-Plattformen wie Demandbase, Terminus und Engagio bieten effektive Tools und Technologien zur Umsetzung von ABM-Strategien. Sie helfen bei der Identifizierung von Zielkunden, der Personalisierung von Inhalten und der Überwachung des Kundenengagements.   Wie geht man vor?   Die Umsetzung von ABM erfordert eine klare Strategie. Schritte wie die Identifizierung der richtigen Kunden, die Koordination von Marketing und Vertrieb, die Entwicklung personalisierter Inhalte und die kontinuierliche Kundenbindung sind entscheidend.   Hör mehr im Podcast!   Möchtest du tiefer in die Welt des Account Based Marketing eintauchen? In meinem aktuellen Podcast erfährst du, wie du ABM effektiv in deinem Unternehmen implementieren kannst. Bleib dran und entdecke, wie ABM die Zukunft deiner Kundenakquise gestaltet!   ABM ist keine Modeerscheinung, sondern eine strategische Methode, die das Potenzial hat, dein Unternehmen zu transformieren. Die Zukunft der Kundenakquise hat begonnen, und ABM kann ein wichtiger Schlüssel dazu sein.  

Episode Summary In this episode of Sunny Side Up, host Jon Miller interviews Heidi Bullock, Chief Marketing Officer at Tealium, to gain insights into navigating tough economic times in the realm of B2B marketing. The conversation delves into four crucial areas of focus: efficiency, driving meetings in customer accounts, delivering bad news, and managing team growth during downturns. Heidi stresses the importance of understanding customer pain points by regularly engaging with them to identify their needs and concerns. Transparent communication is highlighted as a cornerstone for building trust and credibility, especially when delivering unfavorable news. Keeping messaging simple, focused, and repetitive emerges as a powerful approach to ensure information retention and audience engagement. Additionally, Heidi offers valuable advice on optimizing team productivity, certifying members for specific tools, and utilizing project management platforms like Asana to enhance collaboration in global teams. As a leader, she emphasizes the significance of promoting growth opportunities for team members during challenging economic times.  About the Guest Heidi Bullock is an experienced marketing executive who has built a 20+ year career working at both global enterprise technology companies and start-ups. She is currently the CMO of Tealium, one of the largest independent and most trusted customer data platforms (CDP). Before Tealium, she held leadership roles at Engagio and Marketo. Connect with Heidi Bullock Key Takeaways - Focus on four key areas: efficiency, customer meetings, delivering bad news, and team growth during downturns. - Set clear goals for both net new logo acquisition and customer expansion. - Regularly interact with customers to stay attuned to their needs and pain points. - Prioritize transparency when delivering bad news to build trust and credibility. - Keep messaging simple and focused to resonate with the audience. - Utilize repetition to reinforce important information and ensure it sticks with the audience. - Build efficient teams by organizing and leveraging existing content and tools. - Certify team members for certain tools to increase efficiency and autonomy. - Use project management tools like Asana to facilitate collaboration and visibility in global teams. - Offer growth opportunities to team members even during tough economic times. - Involve global teams early on in projects to ensure their perspectives are heard and incorporated. - Product marketing should focus on customer pain points and storytelling for impactful messaging. - Have an optimistic approach as a leader during challenging times. - Drive expansion by dedicating resources to customer-focused efforts in marketing and customer success. - Success in B2B marketing lies in clear goal setting, customer-centricity, effective messaging, and strong leadership. Quote "I think maybe the role of marketing in many cases stays the same. It's just where you put your focus and energy changes." - Heidi Bullock  Recommended Resources Book - "The Happiness Advantage" by Shawn Achor BlogDave Kellogg's "Kellblog" Podcast a16z Podcast by Andreessen Horowitz Shout-outs Bhaskar Roy – Head of Marketing at Workato Rashmi Vittal – CMO at Productiv Chandar Pattabhiram – CMO at Coupa Software ⁠Connect with Heidi Bullock | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow us on LinkedIn ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Jon Miller is CMO at Demandbase and co-founded Marketo and Engagio. Jon is widely regarded as one of the top voices in B2B marketing and does not disappoint with this episode. Dave and Jon talk about:- What an effective B2B CMO does- Questions to ask the founders when taking a new CMO job and how to understand their view of marketing- Why marketing is not a "gumball machine"- The challenge with Marketing sourced revenue vs. Sales sourced revenue (and why Jon believes in team sourced revenue)- Thoughts on what the rise of AI and ChatGPT will mean for B2B marketers- Marketing before and after product market fit- Helpful benchmarks (and where to find them)- Lessons from the early days of Marketo, and moreThanks to our 2023 presenting sponsors Demandwell, Jasper, and Zapier.This episode is brought to you by Jasper. Jasper is the AI Content Generator that helps you and your team break through creative blocks to create amazing, original content 10X faster. Learn more + start using AI to create content for free at jasper.aiThanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode and handling all of the Exit Five podcast production. They give you unlimited podcast editing and strategy for your B2B podcast. Get unlimited podcast editing and on-demand strategy for one low monthly cost. Just upload your episode, and they take care of the rest. Visit hatch.fm to learn more

Abby interviews Jon Miller, CMO at Demandbase and cofounder at Engagio and Marketo. Jon explains the four steps companies need to follow to engage with those leads that will drive business. Jon talks about the importance of creating a holistic buying journey, from beginning to end, that will enhance the relationship and create real opportunities.

In this episode of the OpsStars Podcast, Rachael McBrearty is joined by Jon Miller, CMO at Demandbase. They discuss why using data to drive account intelligence can help sales and marketing teams be more relevant, different types of data, and how to apply the data strategically.

Dave is joined by Brandon Redlinger (VP Marketing at Crosschq). Prior to leading marketing at Crosschq, Brandon was Head of Demand Gen at Demandbase where he managed demand generation, ABM, content marketing, field marketing and partner marketing teams, and Head of Growth at Engagio where he led all content, website, corporate communications and digital marketing.By popular demand in the Exit Five community we wanted to do a dedicated episode on account-based marketing and cover all things ABM in this hour with Brandon, including: - Why take an ABM approach to marketing, which type of companies this go-to-market strategy makes sense for- Where to start with ABM- Guidance for working with sales on selecting target accounts, who owns the account selection process, where ops fits in between sales and marketing, and what "aligning" with sales actually looks like strategically and tactically- What elements are part of an effective ABM campaign and examples of successful ABM campaigns- Metrics and measurement- And moreThanks to our 2023 presenting sponsors Demandwell, Jasper, and Zapier.This episode is brought to you by Demandwell. Demandwell is the best SEO solution for B2B SaaS marketers. They've helped customers like Lessonly drive 40% of their revenue from organic search. And they helped Terminus's make organic search their number one source of demosHere's how it works: Results: Demandwell is built for driving the outcomes that b2b marketers care about - demand, traffic, leads, and revenue.  Ease and control: Junior team members can follow recommended steps in the platform, while experts can customize and maintain full control over their work.  Speed: With everything in one platform, Demandwell helps you crank out content that ranks and drives leads in minutes rather than hours.  SEO expert or not, you should give Demandwell a try, and listeners of the Exit Five podcast can get a free competitive SEO Audit to see how you're ranking relative to your competitors. Go to demandwell.com/fomo to get your free SEO consultation today.Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode and handling all of the Exit Five podcast production. They give you unlimited podcast editing and strategy for your B2B podcast. Get unlimited podcast editing and on-demand strategy for one low monthly cost. Just upload your episode, and they take care of the rest. Visit hatch.fm to learn more

In this episode, host Shahin Hoda chats with Jon Miller, CMO of Demandbase, about the current state of account-based marketing and why organisations should consider moving to its more grown-up sibling.  Based on his years of experience founding and managing global companies such as Marketo and Engagio, Jon highlights the mistakes marketers make while executing their ABM strategy and why Account-Based Experience (ABX) is the next frontier.  Jon discusses how ABX uses the tools provided by ABM hand-in-hand with the customer experience focus of demand generation. Jon concludes the discussion by sharing his take on the future of Account-Based Experience (ABX) and how it will evolve in the next three years.  Ready the show notes: https://xgrowth.com.au/blogs/move-from-abm/ _________________ For your copy of the State of ABM in APAC Report (2022): https://xgrowth.com.au/abm-report/ Miss out on our latest webinar? Listen here: https://xgrowth.com.au/blogs/programmatic-abm/ Join the Slack channel: https://growthcolony.org/slack Hosted & Produced by Shahin Hoda, Allysa Maywald & Alexander Hipwell, from xGrowth We would love to get your questions, ideas and feedback about Growth Colony, email podcast@xgrowth.com.au

It doesn't really matter whether you're a really large company or really small company, you have to continue to find, keep and grow the value of customers, which is the essence of marketing. You can't stop looking for customers and doing that work, but you also have to focus on keeping them. In this episode, Laura Patterson, President of VisionEdge Marketing gives suggestions for smaller to mid-size companies about building an advisory panel from your customers and why that continues to build loyalty, resources for valuable information, and your ability to better serve all of your customers. This fits into the topic of budgets and getting away from a line-items from the past, compared to outcome-based recommendations to nimbly move forward. You will pick up several tips you can implement at your own company - no matter the size - in this episode, "Outcome-Based Budgets vs. Line Item Belt Tightening."   ----more---- About Laura Patterson: Growth strategy consultant to business leaders. Obsessed with helping companies take a customer-centric, data-to-insights, performance management approach to growth and to making business decisions with more confidence. A trusted advisor with global customers within the technology, financial services, life sciences, and manufacturing industries. Co-founded VisionEdge Marketing in 1999, serving customers like Cisco, Elsevier, Howden, Kennametal, Tektronix, Southwest Airlines Cargo, and over 200 more worldwide. Her expertise is regularly tapped by business associations such as the 4As, ANA, Direct Marketing Association (DMA), Institute for the Study of Business Markets (ISBM); academic institutions like Dartmouth, Oklahoma State, Truman State; and, publishers such as CEO Refresher, MarketingProfs, Nimble and academic journals; Marketing Technology companies such as Allocadia, Engagio, Hive9, and Marketo. (LinkedIn) Here is the blog post that really brought this episode together: https://visionedgemarketing.com/recession-how-to-make-the-least-risky-budget-cuts/  About VisionEdge Marketing: Vision Edge marketing started in 1999 with a focus on how they help their customers be more successful at using data analytics processes and measurement to take a customer-centric approach to growth. They were talking about all those things before they became big buzzwords. Now they're all big buzzwords and they're really glad that they were part of a trend.

In this episode old friends Jeff and Jon Miller explore current challenges and the path ahead for marketing and marketers from the lens of ABM, ABX and AI. An industry leader, you might recall that Jon Miller is cofounder at Engagio and Marketo! He knows a thing or two. This packed discussion touches on: The value of ABM and ABX to get more results Why sales and marketing struggle with systems How companies are missing the mark with ABM The problem with marketing picking top accounts The problem with how departments are measured Why you want to be a soccer team Getting poked by a spear doesn't feel so good The evolving role of AI and the future role of marketers What's next for Demandbase Jon's love for yoga is a real thing Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffpedowitz/ Learn more about The Pedowitz Group https://www.pedowitzgroup.com/ Download a free chapter of Jeff's book 'F the Funnel' https://jeffpedowitz.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jon Miller is the CMO of Demandbase. Most recently, Miller was the co-founder and CEO of Engagio, which merged with Demandbase in June 2020. Earlier, Miller was cofounder and CMO for Marketo (acquired by Adobe). He is the author of many books including Demandbase's Clear and Complete Guide to Account Based Experience (ABX) and Marketo's Definitive Guide to Marketing Automation. He was named Most Influential Marketing CEO of the Year by the Corporate Excellence Awards, one of the 10 Most Influential Tech Marketers in the world by B2B Marketing, and a Top 10 CMO for companies under $250M the CMO Institute. Jon holds a bachelor's degree in physics from Harvard and has an MBA from Stanford.

  Most of today's marketing performance is measured by MQLs. A marketing-qualified lead is a prospect that the marketing team determines is worthy of being passed along to the sales team. The challenge? Salespeople in the B2B space typically look for best-fit accounts versus individual prospects. Therefore, marketing and sales aren't on the same page. Jon Miller, Chief Marketing Officer at Demandbase, discusses marketing and sales alignment. Using data to access purchase intent. Switching to MQAs (marketing qualified accounts) as a performance metric, and so much more.  Listen to this episode of the Leader Generation Podcast hosted by Tessa Burg, Chief Technology Officer at Mod Op.   About Jon Miller:  Jon is a marketing entrepreneur and thought leader. He is currently the Chief Marketing Officer at Demandbase, the leading account-based marketing platform. Previously, Jon was the CEO and founder of Engagio (acquired by Demandbase) and was co-founder at Marketo (Nasdaq:MKTO), a leader in marketing automation. Jon is a frequent speaker at conferences including Dreamforce, MarketingProfs B2B, Marketing Operations Executive Summit, OMS, and the Marketing Nation Summit. He is also the author of numerous e-books, including Complete and Clear Guide to Account-Based Marketing and the Definitive Guide to Marketing Automation.    About Tessa Burg: Tessa Burg is Chief Technology Officer at Mod Op, a full-service marketing communications agency focused on using the right methods to help clients capitalize on their opportunities. Originally part of Tenlo, Tessa became part of the Mod Op team in 2022 after Mod Op's acquisition of the company.  In her previous role as vice president of technology, she helped clients execute engaging, multi-platform experiences and products to bring their brands to life. Moving into her role as CTO, she'll oversee Mod Op's technology stack to ensure the agency is leveraging the right platforms to deliver valuable and measurable marketing communications, entertainment and experiences.

How do you go from Physics major to building one of the most popular ABM tools in the world? That's an interesting story! Today's guest for Coffee with Closers says he just followed his passion. Meet Jon Miller, a marketing entrepreneur and thought leader. He is currently the CMO at Demandbase, the leading account-based marketing platform. Previously, Jon was the CEO and founder of Engagio (acquired by Demandbase) and was co-founder at Marketo, a leader in marketing automation. Jon is the author of numerous e-books and a frequent speaker at the leading marketing conferences. “I really wanted to market the way I would want to be marketed to. I didn't want salespeople cold calling me. I wanted to learn and get educated,”- says Jon. Coming up: ►Lessons learned from running a company – from its infancy to going public. ►The importance of company culture for the team's morale and motivation. ►The evolution of the buyer's journey since the early 2000s. ►Approaching and leveraging account-based marketing. ►Tips for creating lots of quality content that educates the market, and more. Enjoy the episode! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ►Find Jon Miller on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2/ ►Visit Demandbase at https://www.demandbase.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This series is brought to you by OneIMS - a leading digital marketing agency helping businesses win new customers. ►Request your FREE marketing ROI audit at https://www.oneims.com/ ►Follow OneIMS online! Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/OneIMS/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/oneims/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/oneims/ If you enjoyed this video, please share it. ►Subscribe to our channel here: https://www.youtube.com/user/oneims ►Listen to our podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/0rq9sO5hIdnMlsY3M7jqYf?si=fLmIEu88QMi6QFU8p6h_Gw ►Visit our website here: https://www.oneims.com/ ►Follow OneIMS online: Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/OneIMS/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/oneims/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/oneims/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/oneims?lang=en

In this episode of the Science of Selling STEM, I had a chat with https://www.linkedin.com/in/samsalesli/ (Samantha McKenna), the Founder of https://www.samsalesconsulting.com/ (SamSales Consulting). Sam is the former head of LinkedIn Sales Solutions, Enterprise, NYC, and VP of Sales at ON24.  She is an award-winning leader, who has broken over a dozen sales records across three different companies, created seven global sales programs for culture, training, and onboarding, and has been named a Top 50 Leader by Outreach.io, and Top 50 Women in Revenue by Engagio.io.   She has been an individual contributor and executive in sales for the last 12 years and has spoken globally on the topics of sales, leadership, and technology. She is a brand ambassador for Linkedin and a highly sought-after speaker who spent her career doing two things; breaking records for herself, her employers, and now her clients. She always puts others first to ensure every client engagement she delivers has an exceptional experience. Sam will demonstrate (From her own hands-on experience) what successful sales leadership really looks like and how you should go about advancing your sales career.  She will also share the tactics you can apply to thrive in entrepreneurship, and so much more. You won't wanna miss this one. And if you ever need help with a sales or leadership issue don't hesitate to book a complimentary clarity session with me https://calendarhero.to/wesleynecappuccino (HERE). You can also email us at podcast@transformedsales.com with any suggestions or comments about the podcast. On Today's Episode of the Science of Selling STEM: Falling into sales despite not being into it at first (01:50) What sales is really all about (03:52) Taking time to build her skills and relationships before moving up the ladder (08:00) Great sales leadership: How sales leaders can build great teams (13:25) The WHY behind her transition into entrepreneurship (16:53) Tips on how to succeed as an entrepreneur (19:33) How she efficiently and effectively services her 100+ clients (24:23) Building her brand with tons of experience before venturing into business (27:51) Connect with Wesleyne Greer: https://transformedsales.com/ (Wesleyne's Website) https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesleynegreer/ (Wesleyne on LinkedIn) https://web.facebook.com/wesleynegreer (Wesleyne on Facebook)      https://twitter.com/wesleynegreer (Wesleyne on Twitter) Email Her at WGreer@TransformedSales.com Connect with Samantha McKenna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samsalesli/ (Samantha on Linkedin) https://www.samsalesconsulting.com/ (Samantha's Website) Rate, Review, Learn, and Share Thanks for tuning into The Science of Selling STEM! If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn even more about what it takes to transform your sales, don't forget to tune into our other episodes and share your favorite episodes on social media! Join The Science of Selling STEM community onhttps://www.facebook.com/WesleyneGreerCEO ( Facebook), https://twitter.com/WesleyneGreer (Twitter),https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesleynegreer/ ( LinkedIn) and https://www.transformedsales.com/ (visit my website) for even more content, information, and resources.

Show Resources Here were the resources we covered in the episode: NEW LinkedIn Learning course about LinkedIn Ads by AJ Wilcox Contact us at Podcast@B2Linked.com with ideas for what you'd like AJ to cover.   Show Transcript Account Based Marketing with LinkedIn ads. Exactly what to do for the best results. Coming right up on this week's episode of the LinkedIn Ads Show. Welcome to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Here's your host, AJ Wilcox. Hey there LinkedIn Ads fanatics. So Account Based Marketing is hot in the B2B sphere. There are so many different companies with ABM offerings, and it's literally become a buzzword in the B2B community. It's really interesting to me because LinkedIn Ads has had the ability to target specific companies with ads since it debuted in 2008. It continues to be, in my opinion, by far the best way to do Account Based Marketing. So on this episode, we're going to go over exactly what ABM is, and how to do it effectively with LinkedIn. We'll also cover what sort of content and offers work well, and the basics of how to segment your campaigns. Make sure to listen all the way to the end, as I'm going to be sharing my top five favorite ABM tactics. Okay, jumping into the news here, you may have noticed that banner at the top of account manager letting you know that there's going to be a new left hand navigation for campaign manager. Well, we got it on some of our accounts and I was pleased to report, since we talked about this in last week's news, that is actually pretty cool. A new addition here is under assets, there's asset history. And that's kind of cool. We haven't had any sort of historical record keeping of anything in the accounts up to this point. So I'm excited to see that. Something else that I really liked about it is it removed the extra step of switching between accounts, which we obviously as an ad agency, who is running LinkedIn Ads, and we're running a lot of them, it's quite a pain to back out of an account and then go back into another one. Well, now it's a very quick click to stay right within campaign manager and just switch accounts. Alright, let's jump into ABM. Let's hit it. 2:00 So first off, I think we have to define what ABM or Account Based Marketing is, because it really has become a buzzword and it's something that CMOs and other marketing professionals throw around, and may not actually know what it means or how it applies to their own marketing efforts. So by my own definition, Account Based Marketing, or Account Based Targeting, or Account Based Sales, it all revolves around the same idea that we are targeting specific companies by name. The way you can think about this is a company can go out and try to acquire as many customers as they want., but Account Based Marketing is all about saying, well, actually, we know a handful or more than a handful of the companies who would be perfect for us, they would be our ideal customers. In that case, you could have a separate effort where you're going after those handful of excellent ideal customers, while still trying to attract the majority of the other accounts, while still trying to attract other business from the rest of the industry. In our case, we specialize in the largest and most involved in highest spending accounts on the LinkedIn Ads platform. And so we know who a handful of those larger players are that we would love to get to work on their accounts. So of course, we want to show ads specifically to them, because any one of those would be a fantastic partnership for us. So my question to you is, who should be doing Account Based Marketing? For me, for a long time I've been telling people, not everyone should advertise on LinkedIn. For some companies, the costs are just too high to make it profitable for them. For instance, if you're a SaaS software that selling for, you know, $100 a month and you don't have contracts, it's likely going to take a long time to recoup any sort of investment. And it may not be possible to show a return on your investment on LinkedIn. But as Account Based Marketing is concerned, I actually do think that every B2B company should be doing it. Because no matter what you do, chances are there are a handful or, like I said more than a handful of companies who would make perfect customers for you. And even if everyone is paying exactly the same amount for your software, you can imagine that there are some brands that would be so worthwhile to have as customers. You could show their logo, you could do case studies about them and leverage their logo, their brand presence, to help elevate your own brand. So you might be willing to take a loss on your advertising, just to bring a brand like that in because it brings all of that credibility, and additional social proof that will help you get a lot more deals in the future. Chances are though, if you're listening, you've already been using LinkedIn Ads and so adding on an ABM element to your campaigns isn't going to be that huge of an addition. And in fact, you're probably already doing it. So let's dive in a little bit deeper. So like I mentioned, back in 2008, LinkedIn let us target specific companies by name. This is back when they had 1000 audience minimum for any sort of advertising. Thank goodness since been lowered down to 300. But even then, as we're talking about ABM, you'll see this is still pretty restrictive. And the way this has always worked is when you go down to select your different audience attributes, you'll see company name is one of the ways that you can target and it's always been this way. In fact, it still is, if you go look for it. And this is great. We still use this quite regularly. The challenge, though, is that, when you use this targeting feature, you're only able to target up to 200 accounts at a time. So let's say that you had an account list of maybe it's the fortune 500. Well, because you can only target 200 companies at a time through this, you'd have to have three separate campaigns. Campaign one targeting the fortune 200, campaign two targeting 201 through 400, and then the third campaign that's targeting just the last 100. You could see how this would be a little bit of a pain to manage and in fact, we've done this for a long time. But luckily for us, back in 2017 LinkedIn released what they called matched audiences. What this allowed us to do is actually upload a list of either individuals that we want to be able to target on LinkedIn or we can upload company names as a list. With this list upload, now we can upload up to 300,000 rows. So you might ask me, AJ, why would you ever want to manually input those company names into a campaign? Well, there are a couple benefits. And this is, of course, if you want to target fewer than 200 companies at a time, then I would still recommend this. And there are two reasons for this. The first is when you manually input them, any suggestion that LinkedIn gives you, it already has a 100% match rate. So if you start typing the name of a company, and it pops up, you are targeting that company, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Whereas with the list upload, you always have to worry a little bit about your match rate and did you put it in the way that LinkedIn wanted to see it, and you won't know until you upload it. The second benefit here is that you'll be able to start targeting that company immediately. Whereas if you upload a list, chances are you won't be able to start using that for about 72 hours. And trust me, I know LinkedIn says it will take a maximum of 48 hours. But in our experience, it is 72 hours. Please fix that. So if I'm ever targeting a list of fewer than 200 companies, I'm probably going to want to input them manually and that's a huge pain. So you might be thinking, AJ, you're crazy, don't do that. Well, I really only have to do it once. Because once you've ever entered 200 of anything, you can always save that audience for later. And then you can go and apply that in any other campaign that you want to. So yeah, it's a pain to put it in once, but once it's in there, you can reuse it again in the future. The other thing is, once you've uploaded a list, you have like 30 to 90 days basically to use that list in your advertising, otherwise, LinkedIn forgets the list. It's a bit of a pain, you have to go back and reupload the list, wait another 72 hours for it to finish processing, and only then can you use it. So working with lists on LinkedIn is really frustrating. But of course, if you're doing a lot of Account Based Marketing, it really is nice to have these lists uploaded and ready to go. 8:29 So if you want to upload your first list, what you do is if you're on the old UI, you'll go to Account Assets, and then Matched Audiences. If you're under the new UI, the new left hand navigation, it'll be under Plan Matched Audiences, you then select Create Audience and then you decide whether you want to do a Company List or a Contact List. Both of them will have a template that you can download into Excel. So because we're talking about ABM here, we're going to talk just about company lists. But of course, contact lists are also great, very much deserving of their own episode. After you download that template, open it in Excel and you'll get to see all of the different headings of the columns that LinkedIn will accept. And so right now, at the time of recording, we have company name, we have domain name like the website URL, we have the email domain, we have company page URL - the URL for how to find this company on LinkedIn, we have stock symbol if they're a public company, industry, city, state, country and zip code. And of course, if you have company page URL, that's probably going to match it 100%. I can't imagine how LinkedIn would not match that, but if you don't just magically have that information from your data source, we found that company name and domain tends to work pretty well here. Then you can upload that CSV file and then wait for like I said, 72 hours until it finishes processing, and then all of a sudden, it will be ready to use in your account and you can start actually advertising to these people. So now that you have this list, you have to go in and create a campaign, or edit a campaign to start using this list. So what you do is when you're in the campaign settings, you scroll down to the targeting criteria. And you'll notice that the first one says, audiences. When you click audiences, there will be list upload and then you'll see company or contact list. Click on the one of your choice and you should see the list that you've uploaded in this list. Alright, so a quick pro tip, you actually don't have to wait until your audience is totally done processing to associate it to a campaign. We know until that list has finished processing, the campaign won't run. But you could still build the campaign and get it associated here so that as soon as it finishes processing, like the second, all of a sudden the campaign will be running. It could save you some time. I will mention here that it's really important to understand that there are two different things you can do with these lists. You can associate a list as either an inclusion or an exclusion on a campaign. And we'll talk a little bit later about why this is important, but it is my firm belief that because of LinkedIns great targeting capabilities, Account Based Marketing is just as much about exclusion as it is about inclusion. Okay, so you've uploaded this company list into your match audiences section. If you go back to your matched audiences section, and you click on the name of that list, once it's done processing, you now have a very powerful dashboard. But we'll get into that a little bit later. What I want to call your attention to is right there at the top, you will see two tabs, one says Matched and it will show a number, the other ones will say Unmatched and show you a number. So I'm looking at a list right now in my account where it says Matched 274, Unmatched 1. So if I click that unmatched tab, it'll now show me the companies that I uploaded as a row in my list that LinkedIn didn't know who they were. So if that's a really important company to me, I can go and recreate a new list and make sure I get it right this time. I could even go to LinkedIn search for that company, get the URL for the company page, and then upload it again. I'm sure that's going to clear and get me 100% match rate. Okay, so now that you know how to do this, we get to start talking about the actual theory here, that strategy about what you're going to do with these lists and how to structure your Account Based Marketing effort or campaigns. First off, you really need to decide how you're going to segment these companies. I mentioned before that you have to have at least 300 people in an audience for LinkedIn to let you run that campaign. So let's say that there's one company that you want to specify, you may even want to call out to that company in the ads, like, hey, IBM, we have a solution for you. Well, as long as there are at least 300 people at that company that you want to see your ads, then you're good to go. You could create an entire campaign focused just on the company IBM and layer your targeting on top. But let's say you're just targeting marketers who are VP and above, well, I know IBM, and this example is a large company, but I don't think that they have more than 300 VPS or above of marketing and so you may have to combine this campaign with other company names. Maybe it's a handful, maybe it's a 1000 other companies, who knows, but you do need to make sure that you get at least 300 people in an audience in order to advertise. So depending on the size of the company, and the number of potential prospects at each of those companies, you can do the math and figure out if you can do this one to one where it's a whole company per campaign, or if you have to include multiple companies in your campaign. If you can do that one to one, it is amazing, because like I mentioned, you could call out to that company in the ad copy and we know that if you call out to accompany in the ad copy, it's going to perform well. Everyone likes to see their company mentioned in their newsfeed. And of course, you'll want to segment your audiences, usually by something. I mean, if you have to combine multiple company names per campaign, you'll probably want to have some sort of a logical grouping there. So for instance, you might have a group of large companies versus full enterprise size, or you might have a list of local companies, you might have a list of companies that are warm, versus a list of companies that are cold. However you decide to organize your lists. You'll want to upload those lists separately and keep track of and because you're likely already advertising on LinkedIn, you have a bunch of other campaigns. What I would do is I would put the term ABM or list or something like that, in all of the campaign names here. And what this does is if you ever want to check the performance of your Account Based Marketing campaigns, you can just go into the search box inside of campaign manager, and type ABM, or type list. And immediately, it'll show you all of your results. Pretty cool. I get asked a lot about, hey, how large should my audiences be when I'm using ABM. You know, if I'm telling you how to run an evergreen campaign on LinkedIn, I'm going to tell you that my preferred audience sizes are between about 20,000 - 80,000. And really, the only risk to having a small audience is it's probably just not going to spend very much. But if it's worth your effort to create it, it's probably worth running. This definitely applies to ABM campaigns. If I have a whole bunch of campaigns that are targeting 300 people, I'm okay with that. I know it's a lot to manage., if you had an account with like 1,000 campaigns, all targeting, let's say the fortune 1,000, that would be a lot to manage. That's a lot of campaigns for sure. But of course, we're talking about small audiences, which aren't going to spend very much, and it's probably never going to get out of control and be impossible to manage. So the moral of the story here is don't worry too much about having too small of an audience size. When you're doing Account Based Marketing, it's kind of the point to have a very focused audience that you can show to. I've noticed a lot of advertisers will go and upload a list and then they'll try to target job titles at that list of companies. And what you need to understand is that job titles are way, way too exclusive to use for ABM, usually. And that's because LinkedIn only understands about 30% of job titles out there. So it means you're probably going to be ignoring the 70% of your audience that's at each one of those companies, which is not in your favor. I mentioned, don't worry about your audiences being too small, well, it's still a good thing to make sure you're hitting as many people at your target company that are a good fit for your message as possible. So my favorite way to do this, if I can, if this makes sense, is on top of the company list, I'm going to layer on job function and seniority. And this is the most broad way of targeting a persona. But of course, if job function is too broad, you can always narrow in by skill. Skill is the next most broad, and I found that to work quite well. So you could do skill with seniority to get the highest number of your target audience at that company to be included in your targeting. I also get asked a lot about, hey, I'm doing Account Based Marketing, but it doesn't seem to be working, what could be going on? And what I want you to understand is that just because you're doing Account Based Marketing and going after specific accounts, doesn't mean that your performance is actually going to improve. In fact, if your ABM audience is a cold audience to begin with, they don't know you exist, they've never heard of your tool or your company or anything like that, they're still going to be a cold audience, which means they're going to act cold. And on top of that, usually an ABM list is full of larger companies, these big fish or whales, and I know many of our listeners represent these companies. When you're at a giant company, you just have people trying to solicit you trying to sell you all the time. It's so so annoying when I've been in that position. So that means that when you're going after these large companies specifically, you might see your performance drop just because a) they're cold and b) they're tired of being sold to. But this could work in your favor, because it would be exactly the same thing for your competitor. So it leaves a wide opening for you to go in being creative and being strategic. So once you've segmented your companies by list, let's say we're doing something like public companies versus non public, or early stage startups versus medium to large, however you're doing this, you need to decide what sort of offers and what sort of ads you want to show to them. You could decide to do like, hey, we don't have a contact at this company yet so we're gonna show gated content to them and try to find at least one contact per one of these companies to then be able to reach out to. Or you might say, this list of accounts that we're going after, our sales team is actively trying to get in with them, so maybe we're going to show them ungated content, maybe it's a blog post, maybe it's a case study, maybe it's a guide or something that's just purely ungated because you want as many people from that company to consume your content and keep your company top of mind. You get to decide what your priority is there. One way that we've done this in the past is you have different lists for different stages of the funnel. So for instance, you might have a list of company names, who were leads, let's say last quarter, and never closed. You might have a different list who were leads that were generated from this quarter who haven't closed yet. So you could upload these lists into two different campaigns, and give them nurture in whichever way that you would find most beneficial. Of course, that can be a lot of work to manage the lists you have by what stage of the funnel they're in. Then you end up having to compare these Excel sheets between quarters and figure out who dropped off of that list or who's been added to it so that you can re upload those lists to LinkedIn and start using them again. 20:33 So if that sounds like way too much work for you, what I would suggest doing is using a flighting strategy. And the way flighting works is you have an entire audience that you're going to show a specific offer or specific ads for a certain amount of time. And then once you feel like you've probably saturated that audience enough, you can turn those ads and offers off and launch something new. So this is kind of like time based retargeting. But we're not relying on LinkedIn to put people into an audience to target them with ads later, we're showing a unified message to our prospects for a certain amount of time and then we move on and tell them a different story, or update them, take them a little bit further down the funnel. But of course, this isn't nearly as precise. And the reason why is because you could theoretically flight ads for let's say three weeks and maybe there's a big chunk of your audience, let's say 10%, who never even logged in during those three weeks. And so chances are some will come in and log in for the first time during your flighting on your second or your third flight. Flighting is the strategy that TV advertisers and radio advertisers have been using for years and years. It definitely works. It's less precise. But hey, maybe that's okay. 21:52 Your other option is actually to create an automated funnel by using LinkedIn retargeting. Well, we know that your minimum audience size is 300, to even start showing a campaign and so that means in order to even have a second step to your funnel, you've got to get at least 300 people to take an action. With an ABM campaign where your audience sizes are small to begin with, it could take a lot of time to actually build out that audience. I like the idea of using flighting strategy to begin with while you're building those retargeting audiences, and then once those are built significantly, then you could switch your strategy over and use an automated funnel, where you're targeting the group of your audience and then any of those who have taken some sort of an action, then they're removed from that audience and instead, they're targeted in a separate campaign where you're just targeting people who have taken that action. I hope that's clear. Alright, here's a quick sponsor break. And then we'll actually dive into the bidding the budgeting and limitations of Account Based Marketing on LinkedIn. 22:55 The LinkedIn Ads Show is proudly brought to you by B2Linked.com, the LinkedIn Aads experts. 23:05 If the performance of your LinkedIn Ads is important to you B2Linked is the agency you'll want to work with. We've spent over $150 million on LinkedIn Ads, and no one outperforms us on getting you the lowest cost per lead and the most scale. We're official LinkedIn partners and you'll only deal with LinkedIn Ads experts from day one. So fill out the contact form on any page of B2Linked.com o chat about your campaigns, We'd absolutely love to get to work with you. 23:32 Alright, let's jump into the nitty gritty here. So first off with bidding and budgeting on ABM campaigns, you don't really have to worry too much about a budget, assuming that these are a small audience size. Remember any audience on LinkedIn that you choose, let's say the number looks big, let's say has 20,000 people in it. Well, we know that not every one of those people is going to be logged on to LinkedIn on any given day. And then if you're running sponsored content, you'd be lucky if 1% of those people clicked on your ad. So most of your ABM campaigns, assuming a small audience size, probably aren't going to spend very much, but it's probably a good idea to give them a little bit of wiggle room, set your budgets kind of high just in case. So that's your budgeting, and you just kind of want it out of the way so it doesn't stop your efforts in the midday. But with bidding, you have two different options here. You can either use LinkedIn automated bidding, or maximum delivery, or you can do manual CPC bidding. Both of them can work well. I would just suggest if you are doing manual bidding, you'll want to bid pretty high, like pretty aggressively, because if you can imagine you've got a list of very high value companies here. But of course, the people at those companies are also part of a whole bunch of other marketers lists. Some of them probably have really high performing ads, really good offers. And so in order to win out and have your select few people get shown the ad over one of your competitors. you'll need to make it worth LinkedIn's while. And if you've been listening to me for a while, you probably know that I usually recommend bidding either at the low end of the recommended range, or even significantly below it. But with ABM campaigns, I kind of flip the script and I'll start out by bidding on the high end of the suggested range. Like I mentioned, with the limitations of building any audience on LinkedIn, you have to have at least 300 audience members in order for the campaign to run. So that does make it pretty hard to customize messaging right to an individual company. But if you do want to do that, sponsored messaging ads will let you insert what LinkedIn calls macros. It's dynamic messaging, where you can insert the person's company name, right into the content of the ad. So if sponsored messaging is a good ad format for you, then it can work really well for ABM because you could have a list that you're targeting of 1,000 different companies, but the ad will still show up and say, Hey, we love marketers at IBM, and whatever company they represent, they'll see it in the ad, could be very cool. One of the biggest limitations, though, to using LinkedIn for your ABM efforts, is of course, that you're probably not going to reach these folks outside of when they're on LinkedIn. So if you want to get in front of them around the whole web, yeah, you'll probably have to use one of the many ABM vendors out there, and they can work well. But if you're okay, just hitting them while they're on LinkedIn, you're in luck. Because of that, I also do recommend using LinkedIn Audience Network on any of your ABM campaigns because at least then you'll have a chance at showing them on other sites other than just LinkedIn. You'll reach them a little bit more often, which is cool. And I mentioned that there are quite a few ABM specific vendors out there. And they have a lot of limitations compared to LinkedIn. Of course, the cool part is that they can reach your audience on other ad inventory outside of just waiting for them to come to LinkedIn, which obviously people don't spend a ton of time on LinkedIn on average, but they do have quite a few limitations. Like for instance, they're trying to identify companies by the IP address that they're visiting from. So you could imagine, yeah, for large companies, where if an IP address is communicating, it's coming from one building on a Microsoft campus somewhere. And yeah, you could say, chances are that's coming from Microsoft. But what about all those users who still work for the company, but they're using their mobile phone on the subway, or walking around the city, and they're not on Wi Fi, you lose them there. And then quite a few of these companies also rely on cookies. And we've had this conversation before in previous episodes, where cookies are just really scary right now, because they're going away. So if you're relying on a cookie, tying someone's identity together, you're going to lose that data eventually. I'm going to read off a few of these Account Based Marketing Tools, or platforms. I'm sure these will sound familiar to a lot of you. Across all of our accounts, we've managed, we've gotten a chance to use the vast majority of these platforms. We've used Terminus, we've used Metadata, we've used 6sense, Demandbase, Engagio and they all have their own technology, their own pros and cons so it's definitely worth checking them out. And obviously, I'm a little bit of a LinkedIn nut. So you can take anything I say with a grain of salt here, but I just haven't found any of these ABM vendors that can beat native LinkedIn advertising. Of course, the downside is you're always waiting for them to come back to the platform. If they're not spending a whole lot of time there, you may need to reach them on other platforms. So more often than not, this is a combined strategy of run this on LinkedIn, as well as on one of these other ABM vendors. When you're using one of these ABM vendors, though, you probably want to make sure you have a pretty significant size of lists of companies in order to really make it make sense because they're going to charge you a minimum fee just to work with them. Then of course, the ad inventory itself, because they're showing across like the Google Display Network, for instance, it's not all that expensive. In order to make it worthwhile, you do want to a pretty large list. So before I mentioned that when you click on the name of the company upload list, that there's a dashboard, and this dashboard, I don't know what to call it other than I call it like an ABM Performance Dashboard. What it does is it shows you all of the companies that you've uploaded, along with their performance from your ads, and it's going to always show this to you for your last 90 days combined. There are two different ways that you can break this down. The first is Engagement and the second is Details. So if you click on the Details break down, it's just going to show you all of the details about that company that you uploaded. It'll show you things like company name, industry, company size date added, domain, etc. This isn't a source of information where LinkedIn gives you a readout. They're only going to give you something here if that's what you uploaded. So if you didn't upload stock symbols or the company's domains, it's not going to give it to you back. Probably, what you're going to find the most interesting here is engagement. Under the engagement drop down, it's going to show you the company name, it's going to show you an engagement level by how engaged LinkedIn thinks this company is with your ads, the number of members from that company targeted, the number of campaigns they're targeting that company, the number of impressions that that company was served, and ad engagement, like a click through rate combined from that company. There's even organic engagement, because LinkedIn obviously knows how many people from that company are engaging with your company page, or even your ads, because they've been shared by one of their coworkers. And finally, there's website visits, which website visits is only going to show if you have the insight tag installed on your website. And of course, your users have a cookie on their browser that's identifying them as who they are on LinkedIn, to LinkedIn. That's obviously going away with cookies, going to death. So this is a very cool dashboard. It's something that LinkedIn hasn't made a whole lot of noise about, but I absolutely love this. If you're using company name lists in your match audiences, go check this out now and take a look. See if you can see which companies are really loving your ads, which just haven't been reached by them, and you've got to find them a different way. 31:36 Okay, I mentioned at the beginning that I was going to share with you my five favorite strategies for running ABM campaigns. I'm actually going to throw in a sixth, a little bonus strategy here. So number one, I love to go to the sales teams of our clients, and ask them to give us a list of their sales dream accounts. The companies that they would absolutely love to work with. And of course, it's really not hard to combine all of these lists from a whole bunch of different sales reps, combine them into one list and then you can upload that. Now all of a sudden, sales feels like, hey, marketing is trying to get us what we're asking for. And now sales and marketing, they used to butt heads, but now they're holding hands and singing Kumbaya. It's a great thing. Strategy number two, I actually like to upload a list of competitors names, and then exclude that across all of my campaigns. And what that does, is even if I'm not specifically doing ABM targeting, I'm taking my competitors out of the running here using the company name exclusions. And now my competitors have no idea what it is I'm doing. They're not being shown my ads, they can't click on them to charge me money, etc. My third strategy here is actually along the same vein, instead of your competitors, it's taking your list of customers, and excluding them because your customers are already paying you money. You don't need to pay to show them ads anymore. That'll save you some money, because your customers probably will click. Strategy number four is actually taking that same customer list and showing ads to them intentionally. Here's an idea of when that would be appropriate. So let's say you have a list of customers who their contract is going to be up in the next three months and they're going to be reevaluating if they want to be still signed up, still subscribing to whatever your SaaS software is. Well, now you can target them with product updates and information about the roadmap, what's coming out for your tool, what it's going to be able to do, what new functionality you'll have, all of that. Because they're seeing that, chances are they're going to get excited, or at least a lot more energized about being a customer of yours and when it comes time for renewal, you should see a much lower churn rate. Strategy number five, we actually touched a little bit on, you take a list of all of your leads for a certain amount of time who have been generated as a lead, but haven't yet moved to the next stage in the funnel, or haven't yet closed as a deal. So you could take that list of companies and show ads to them. What I like about this is you don't have to just show ads to the people who were leads of yours, you know that that person is part of a larger buyer committee usually. So now you can broaden your targeting quite a bit and you can try to reach everyone in that company who could be part of that buyers committee. So for instance, if you're trying to sell a tool to a marketer, well, you know, they probably have other coworkers who might be lending a hand or helping in that decision. You might have someone in finance, this deal is going to cross their desk and they've got to sign off on it. If it's small companies, the CEO probably needs to sign off on it or be convinced. So if you can show ads and keep top of mind for everyone in the buyers committee, when it comes time to actually sign you'll get a lot more oh, I've heard of these guys before, they must be legit and signing off versus "Wait, what tool are you trying to buy?" and getting added scrutiny. You don't want that. And here's my bonus strategy, strategy number six. You probably have a list of leads that you've generated. And let's say that you have all of their company email addresses. Well, you want to take my advice here, like when I talked about how you want to target the whole set of decision makers. But if these are a list of individuals, you're not going to be able to do that very well. Well, what we do is we'll take that contact list, and inside of Excel will extract a column for just their company email domain and then we can go and upload that to LinkedIn as a company matched audience list, Voila!, you just took a contact list and turned it into a company list and now you can apply all of those targeting filters on top to make sure you're hitting the rest of the buyers committee, or at least their co workers, other people who could help make this decision. All right, I've got the episode resources for you coming right up. So stick around. 36:07 Thank you for listening to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Hungry for more? AJ Wilcox, take it away. 36:18 All right, here are the resources from this episode. So if you are looking to advertise better on LinkedIn, or you have, let's say, a coworker, or someone else who's trying to learn and get up to speed, make sure you refer them to the LinkedIn Learning course that I did with LinkedIn on LinkedIn Ads. The link is right down below in the show notes. It's really easy. It is by far the least expensive and the best course out there. Also, if this is your first time listening, look down at your podcast player and hit that subscribe button on whatever player you're listening on. And please do rate and review the podcast. If you rate, of course, we love to see five stars. It helps other people who are also ad managers on LinkedIn get to hear about the podcast. Anything you have to say please leave it in a review and we'd love to shout you out here on air as well. With any questions you have or topic suggestions, anything like that, you can reach out to us at Podcast@B2Linked.com. And with that being said, we'll see you back here next week, cheering you on in your LinkedIn Ads initiatives.

INTRODUCTION:Jerry Fu was born in the United States, growing up in a Taiwanese family. He encountered conflicts at work, in culture, and within himself. He didn't know how to handle any of it, and he didn't know where to look for help. Worse, he lost a job because he continually avoided conflict with an upset boss. But getting fired was the wake-up call he needed. Jerry had to adapt myself and improve as a leader, which meant engaging the conflict he disliked so much. Ironically, his ongoing struggle with conflict became a fascination. Now, Jerry helps others take on the same challenges. Jerry's clients experience three benefits:1.Clarity in next steps to take2.Confidence to take them 3.Closure after overcoming the difficultyJerryis also a pharmacist and a leadership coach. He works with Asian-Americanprofessionals on their career and life journeys. He focuses on resolvingclients' conflict at work, in culture, and within themselves. His servicesinclude one-on-one coaching, group workshops, and keynote presentations.Beforestarting his coaching business, Jerry completed a Biology degree at RiceUniversity. He also attended pharmacy school at the University ofTennessee-Memphis. Teaching a leadership workshop in 2012 inspired him tobecome a pharmacy manager. He completed the CoachRICE Leadership CertificateProgram in spring of 2020. He is an ICF-certified coach and certified talentoptimization consultant with Predictive Index. His interests include travel,cooking, playing guitar/piano, and lots of salsa dancing. If you've read thisfar, then this poses the question: What can JFu do for you?  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      Unique Asian American perspective·      Bouncing back from getting fired·      Dealing with conflict on the job·      Leadership hacks·      Coronavirus disruptions·      Heterosexual hullabaloo in the church!!!·      Surviving loss of a business·      Dealing with workplace conflict·      Xenophobia in Harris County·      Salsa dancing lessons and how they transfer into leadership skillso  Commando  Confidenceo  Creativityo  Communicationo  Commitment CONNECT WITH JERRY:Website & Coaching: https://www.adaptingleaders.comLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/34m6iopJERRY'S RECOMMENDATIONS:Barking Up The Wrong Tree: https://amzn.to/3qSqN3FDesigning Your Life: https://amzn.to/33bsn8zDesigning Your Work Life: https://amzn.to/3f0OiChThe Advice Trap: https://amzn.to/3zANoFVDecisive: https://amzn.to/3n2lAp8CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Happy new year, everyone. I hope and pray that your new year's off to a magnificent start and that this year and the rest of your freaking life is full of splendor and might and valor and all the good things you could ever hope and dream for. Today.I'm talking with my homeboy, Jerry Fu he's a certified conflict resolution coach and a certified leadership coach. He has a shit ton of education under his belt. [00:01:00] What I liked the most is that he has a CoachRICE Leadership Certificate from Rice University, and that is a kick ass program to have gone through.Now, in this episode, we're going to get his unique Asian American perspective. We're going to talk about. How to bounce back from getting fired, how to survive the loss of a business. And there's some heterosexual hullabaloo that happened in the church that we got the tea on baby. And we're also going to talk about how you can take salsa dancing lessons and turn that into leadership skills.Enjoy our first episode of the new year. Jerry, thank you so much for coming on the sex drugs and Jesus, the podcast the day. How are you feeling today over there? And he H town,Jerry: oh, I'm feeling excited. You know, the Astros are doing well, and you know, so the whole cities you know, in a frenzy, you know, look to root for it. But yeah, I am excited to be here this morning forDe'Vannon: well, the Astro's doing, doing well is a, is a [00:02:00] rare thing. This, this, this pandemic has bought all sorts of anomalies.Jerry: That's true. Yeah. You're gonna get it right to say enjoy it for what it is. You might not come back. De'Vannon: Gosh, I w when I used to live in Houston, I used to love going to the Astros games to drink my ass off and tried to get on the jumbotron and everything. It really wasn't that concerned about the sport. I love the entertainment of it, all the entertainment, as we say, in the gay world,Jerry: Yeah. Charles Barkley said it I'll say this much on one of his shows. He said baseball. Just excuse to sit out in the sun and drink beer. De'Vannon: Hey, take what you want, leave the rest.Jerry: It's a fun time. Yeah. De'Vannon: So I'm very excited to be talking you to today. Because of your, your unique Asian American perspective in your willingness to serve your community and the population [00:03:00] as a whole now, What do you to talk to me about that? How you, cause you're like a pharmacy doctor, which is different from like a regular pharmacist, you have a shitload of education behind you that was reading through your LinkedIn profile.And now you own this coaching company. So walk me through how you went from pharmacy to the coach.Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. It's. you know, people don't see the connection until I make it for them. Right. Because I lived it and I mostly, it makes sense. And then there was like, no, I don't see. I don't see how that, where you went from a to B. So we will, we will walk that path. Yeah, basically I've wanted to do something healthcare.I wasn't serious enough to go to med school. I found that out really quickly and undergrad that a few now serious about the reasons you want to become a doctor. You are not going to survive all the hoops to make each answer. For instance, you know, when my best friend from high school is a pediatrician, he's always been great with kids.He knew exactly why he wants to be a doctor [00:04:00] or a physician. For me, I just said, well, you know, You know, most Asians do this, so yeah, sure. I'll go along with it. Right. It's like, okay. I have to share. I'll do pre-med by default. Right. And yeah, so, so on to healthcare and I, so I convinced a pharmacy school, you know, where I lived up in Tennessee that I would make a good pharmacist.And so I said, okay, yeah, this is nice. You know people are going to pay me six figures to count by fives. Yeah, sure. That sounds like a great deal. And so the irony is that, you know, my mom wanted me to work for a chain pharmacy. She just said, Hey, you know, this is stable. I don't want you to deal with you know, the employment challenges your dad had to deal with despite having two masters in chemical engineering and computer science you know, just work for this company and The benefits and, and retirement plan and whatever else are worth, whatever headaches you have to deal with on the clock.And I just said, you know, at that point in my life, I was just like, I just didn't care. And I just said, fine, I'll go along with my mom's plan for me. And quickly realized that it wasn't for. But I was too [00:05:00] scared to, or too pessimistic to believe that I could still find something meaningful. I just said, well, you know, if those, those are closed, if already signed with this company and you know, I got to return my signing bonus if I break my year contracts.So I guess it's just going to stay here. And he just he's. I just got, I just felt defeated. Right. I'm just like right now know, my mom wants me to marry this girl and I've got to just accept this job that I don't like. And so at one point it did get comfortable. Like at one point I moved on to another store within the same company that allowed me to have the flexibility and scheduling that I wanted.And all of a sudden I was like, happier. Now I'm scared to leave it. Cause I just said, well, you know, at this really great store and I don't want to do this, but anyway, once that went away, right. I said, okay, I I'm tired of this. I need to find something else. And so I want to teach, I wanted to teach students in pharmacy, but didn't have like a PhD or residency and things like that that could get me a conventional academic job. But a friend who worked for a pharmacy consulting company here in Houston said, Hey, my, you know, my previous position is open since I got promoted and I know you're going to teach, do you want [00:06:00] to apply for this job? And I said, absolutely. And so next thing I know I'm walking away from a full-time job with benefits and, you know, nice things to move to Houston for a part-time job where I have to earn my way with this company, I was really excited about working for and 11 months later I got fired and it was just like, well, you know, what do I tell everybody?Right. You know, I've leveraged my connections to get and to get an opportunity for this. And they're going to ask us questions about why, and, you know, the simple answer is that, you know, it just, wasn't serious about becoming an instructor. And you learn quickly also. You can't do. You know, be better than 70% of the workforce.Like you have to actually hold your weight and get things done because stories, they're not paying you to give you stories. They want results. Right. And then, so anyway, so that's when the rollercoaster got really weird. I ended up at a cast of cars, pharmacy where four of my paychecks bounced as I feel for crooked doctors. This guy was just the business owner. It was just bad news. Nine months of that, my, [00:07:00] my friends finally get me on with a different company that likes me, but can't pay me more than eight hours a week. And so I'm like, great. I, how do I pay for rent and groceries this month? So they said, well, you can cover more hours if you work for us out in Austin.And so I go out to Austin, you know, two and a half hours away with no idea what my life will look like at this point. And that was the summer. This is 2012. Now that was a summer where some friends in pharmacy who run a leadership nonprofits said, Hey, you know, A spot opened up. We know you've been facilitating on the fraternity side, but we have an opportunity on the leadership side.Would you be willing to help out with that? And I said, absolutely. And so, you know, my pessimism applied to a lot of things in my life. And part of it was just my ability to be a good leader. I just said leadership is hard and I don't like it. And I don't want to look in competence. I'm just going to avoid it altogether, if I've never going to be good at it.And now after teaching it, I said, well, what if I could be a good leader? You know, what would that look like in terms of work and effort? How would I care [00:08:00] myself if I do I could allow for this possibility I had the opportunity to move back to Houston, to take on a full-time position with, by then employer and proceeded to get written up because I was not keeping my technicians in line.I was still too afraid of conflict to discipline people or even fire people. And, you know, management said, Hey, this is also a problem. And so you're gonna have to. You're going to have to face this. And so the transition became more apparent when, after, even after getting more leadership experience and which saved my career because the only reason I have a job now in pharmacy side of half liters experienced but I just got tired of the grind where I just said, you know, my, the jobs that offer the quality of life that I'm looking for, don't last, usually more than one to two years, they're like icebergs.So like, oh great. You know, like I have more icebergs to hop to, but there's still icebergs. And so I said, well, I'm tired of insurances telling me what I can and can't do. I'm tired of trying to chase down doctors for scripts. But I love these leadership workshops. I love teaching them. I've been teaching them [00:09:00] since you know, 2012.And I said, well, what if I had a career in this? What would that look like? And so I started to talk to some people in this space and see, you know, how do you build a business? Things like that. But I was still scared. Like I was still afraid of failure. I still sort of projection and a lot of ways still am, but.And a pandemic captain. And I said, how am I slug? You cannot afford to wait to put this in the, you know, putting this off until I really have skin in the game. So yeah, as of a year ago, I finally put the LLC out and get the website up and you know, it's flying by the seat of your pants, right. You're just like, I don't know what I need to do today.Cause I've never had the worst of many hats at the same time. But yeah, that was the transition. Right. Leadership saved my career. It was a struggle. It became a fascination and now I want to turn around and help people the way I wish I had been helped earlier in my life.De'Vannon: I appreciate that, that overview that you just gave me, and I'm going to go back through and break a couple of those parts down, and then we're going to get very [00:10:00] granular with it. But, you know, I say I appreciate the Corona virus from the aspect of a disruption. I love how uncomfortable. She came along and shook everybody up.You get a people who have careers that they never liked any damn way. Cheap ass bosses are actually paying people more. Like when you're, when I drive around town, I see, oh, McDonald's is finally paying what, $10 an hour. Okay. You couldn't have done that before, but now that you can't get people to come to work, now you're doing it.So I love it. So I appreciate the fact that you are motivated. My underwear store DownUnder Apparel  Kind of came about the same way I had been thinking about doing it for years. And then I didn't do it until because, you know, I was, I was there in Houston, Texas working for CenterPoint energy, you know, and making good enough money that I really wasn't motivated to change [00:11:00] anything.But then when I was homeless, didn't have anything. And I, and it was Janet. And I was like, oh, well, we might as well go on ahead and order some drives and see what we can do. Jerry: yeah. De'Vannon: So though I love, I love problems because of the way they motivate us out of our comfort zone. So what, what makes you different from every other coach out there?Jerry: yeah, that's a, it's a great question. I mean, for me I think a big, big distinction is that my motivations are deeply personal. Just because I've been in so many situations of conflict that were uncomfortable and then you know, You realize at some point when you, you can't back out and you can't hide your head in the sand, like an ostrich and just start to run toward things, because you're just like, well, I have to do something, even if I'm not great at it, I stopped it.Something [00:12:00] like an example I could give is when I, on my second day as a church class director, I found out that one of the newer guys was sexually harassing women in the class. And everyone says, Jerry, you got to handle this. You, the director. Like you didn't give me a manual. That's not just handle it.And I'm just like, oh no, it's given me a plan that was giving me suggestions on how to attack this. They just said, you just gotta deal with it. Right. Another time you know one of my technicians was actively fabricating lies about, about me and it was just like, okay. I have to, I have to, I have to fire her, you know, it's like, I don't want to do this.Cause she, she has seen those. You know, be temperamental and things like that. But yeah, part of it is just the fact that this is a deeply personal thing. Like I see it, you know, dealing with my parents and their expectations of what they want. Right. And and then I see it in my work relationships with people I don't get along with them before, you know, it just be all defensive differential and just, oh, well, you know, let me just, [00:13:00] let me just play nice, even though I hate their guts right now or something like that. But Yeah.it's a combination of personal experience as a combination of my love for reading, because I love pulling you know, great stories and great examples to study from. Even if I personally don't have that experience, but if I know a book that has something useful for my clients I'm going to be able to pull it and, you know, share it and see how they respond responsibility. And people have told me several times just that the quality of my questions is off the charts. So I'd say those are three things that people would hopefully be drawn to if they, if they think I can have.De'Vannon: I can definitely feel the passion emanating from you. Because you have lived through the experience and there is a difference in between somebody who's trying to give advice or tell people what to do. And haven't lived through it versus somebody who is coming from their [00:14:00]darkness, which they've now turned into light. When, when I was talking to you about coming on the show that, you know, that was the first, the first message that you sent me had some of your personal experiences ended. And I was so impressed with that because there is no lack of people who want to go, come on my show or come on different podcasts to, to give out all this advice and everything.And I'm all like, well, wait a minute, what skin in the game do you have? You know, what have you, you know, what have you been through? Why should people listen to you? What's going to be the buy-in. How can you relate with people? And I can tell that you mean what you say, Jerry, because I was looking on your website through your different.Packages and things like that. And first of all, you're, you're super transparent because you have the prices on your web. Most, which I appreciate because mostly people who are speakers, coaches, consultants will not tell you how much it costs. They want to book you into like the [00:15:00]meetings so they can try to convince you to pay whatever they're asking, which wastes my time, because I'm on like bitches, tell me what the shit costs.And so, cause they didn't want to pay it or I'm not. And so you get that. Well, let, let's meet. That you you're coming at it from a very humble and open-minded and common sense. Common sensical, if that's the fucking word is not, it shouldn't be a common sensical angle because you're like, look, it is what it is.Here are the prices where everything, and you've got like 50, 50 different damn packages too, which is very impressive because I had never, ever, ever seen a coach with that many different options. It's not really 50 all, but it's probably like a good 15 or 20, but it's like a lot in the, in the prices start as low as $45 to get your assistance.So you've priced things with probably the pandemic and mine, and people's different economic situations in mind. And that is so on [00:16:00] tempo for the times. And so my hats off to you for. For being real. And I can tell them what you're saying is true. And I, and I, and I know that the way that you're approaching it is different because the way that your brain, that your self is very different, like, like somebody who's been through some shit I can.Now, what would your ideal client be?Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. In coaching, we like to say the idea of clients is who we were 10 years ago. So my, the idea of clients is yeah, is you know, Asian professionals in their probably mid twenties, early thirties that realized, You know, Hey, I did everything. My parents told me, right. I went to med school, I got married and started a family.Right. I got the accounting job at the big firm, but somehow I thought this was enough. I thought I could finally take my gloves off and say, this is enough. And then you realize you've just inherited a whole different set of challenges, right? Like they don't go away. [00:17:00] Know I thought, oh, fat paycheck and, you know, nice nine to five work at, by the nights.And weekends was enough for me. It's like, no, it's not, you know, they didn't tell you that. But they didn't think about it themselves either. Right. They came from a different standpoint and so yeah, for people to realize, Hey, you know what you know, the, well, my parents told me, like I can under, I can understand, appreciate their background as, and the justification, but it's not working for me anymore. So, you know, what do I do that? Right. Do I switch careers? Do I go back to school? And so, yeah those are the types of people with the questions that I want to help answer. So yeah, those are my ideal people to help.De'Vannon: You mentioned parents. That's a couple of times now. So speak to me about how strong parental influence is on children's career decisions and life decisions, because you've mentioned that your mom had a girl picked out for you and everything, which I wasn't aware that that was like betrothing people.Wasn't a thing. I didn't think that was a thing [00:18:00] in Chinese culture, but you know who my, so how much of a, of an issue is parents getting all up in y'all shit really?Jerry: I mean, it's, know, it's, it's funny to think about that. I know a couple friends who are parents that are very Well, adjusted. They're like, yeah. You know we don't know what kind of professional view, we're just trying to do our best to give them the tools. They need to kind of figure things out on their own.That is not true for a lot of Asian parents. This is what Asian parents have. Right. They, especially for the first four and they're like, we gotta make sure this one, like succeeds at life. Like he can pay his bills and he has the, you know, Chrissy job or whatever else like that. And yeah, I mean I felt like my parents kind of tag team to me you know, for a while, because. Early on. I haven't shared this example much just because it hasn't come up, but just to give people some window into what I'm dealing with. Right. [00:19:00] Like I remember when I'm like misbehave, even when I was like a toddler. So my dad would just, if he lost his temper with me, he just picked me up and throw me to the bathroom and closed the door and just let me cry my eyes out until like my mom would check on me after the fact.And half the time there were times I didn't even know what I did like, oh, I know it was like out my dad upset. And the next thing I know, this is how he felt like he had to discipline me to make sure I didn't, you know, get out of line again. And then other times, right. You know, I would ask for a self with mass and, or I know he would teach me math.And then I remember I was struggling with the concept. And so I proceeded to teach me two words in Japanese. Cause he lived in Taiwan during the world war. So we had to learn Japanese as well. They were under Japanese control and he said, head DAMA,And she basically taught me to where it's a Japanese to tell me that my head was made of concrete. And I could totally hear my paternal grandmother, my paternal grandfather, his dad telling him the same thing. You know, because this is [00:20:00] how we move people forward. And then somehow after I got to like mid twenties, that's when a transition to more of my mom giving me more advice as to, to the, they know what to do with life and things like that.Cause now she's just trying to be protective. She's trying to keep me from hurting myself or making it like fatal mistakes, things like that. And so yeah, she's like, no, take the safe job, marry the safe girl and yeah, I mean, it's, there comes a point where they care, right? There is no question how much they care about me.They care about, you know, making sure that I, I, I have stability in my life and then I've realized in my own journey with them and also my. Leadership experiences that if you help too much, you're actually hurting the person because now you're enabling them and you're keeping them helpless because they never learned how to do things on their own.So, yeah, I've seen plenty of Asian Asian, you know, people that immigrant sons of immigrants, daughters of immigrants that are dealing with these expectations [00:21:00] even even as they've gotten to a point in life where they should be independent, but you know, your mom's always going to be your mom. Right.So, yeah. And matchmaking happens. It's not to the point of, so other cultures like Indian culture, where this is still like a very big thing where they're just like, no, we've negotiated this for you may as well accept it. It's like, no, they'll they'll resort to matchmakers. If like, they feel like they're floundering and like, oh, your dating.Life's not where it needs to be. Now we're going to step in and do something about it. Right. So, yeah, it's a, it's very prevalent. I would say I haven't met a lot of Asians who say that. Oh yeah, no, my parents are to our, it's a factor in the conflicts I deal with.De'Vannon: Well, what you just described to me was what I would classify as abuse.Jerry: Fair enough to do that anymore. That's when CPS gets involved right now, they don't do De'Vannon: Yeah, we don't, we don't for the record, we do not throw our sons into the bathrooms and lock the [00:22:00] door, so, and then mom has to come rescue him hours later. We don't do that, sir. And I'm speaking to your, your dad's still alive. Jerry: Yeah, he is. De'Vannon: I thought you've referred to him in past tense earlier as I wasn't. Sure. Jerry: Oh, no, no, no, no. He's, he's still alive and I forget the name. It's cool. De'Vannon: That is so wonderful, but I don't care. I will say anyway, sir, I'm speaking to your dad. We do not lock a little boy in the bathroom. We don't like grown men in the bathroom minder, unless it's some sort of fetish thing and they want it.Jerry: That's a whole other discussion.  We both grown since that it's called. De'Vannon: so I'm just going to mention this. You've mentioned the When you were in church and the guy was harassing the woman. That is a very curious thing to me because people don't often talk about the guy on girl harassment in churches. I don't think I've ever heard that. Usually you usually talk about us gays and try to act like we want to come in there and molest [00:23:00] everybody's children, which is bullshit.So we had grown as men to get Dick from. We don't need children but I've never heard anybody talk about like a head of a sexual harassment happening in a church. I just wanted to point that out because that's very, very curious to me.Jerry: Yeah, happy to unpack that. In fact, you know, we were joking you know, me.and some other friends who were past directors for joking, that if we could compile all the stories of all the times, we had to basically run off like predators, just basically looking for cute women. They, because this is what, this is the mentality they have.They say, well, you know, I want to get married. Whereas the place I could find, you know, quote like safe datable woman Oh, the church, I'm sure. You know, cause people are just up in this Sunday best. And when you realize some of the problems people walk into with, when they go to church, like, it's just like, Hey guys, there's a lot beyond that cover that you don't see.Right. But yeah, this is what guys do. This is, yeah. They just say churches [00:24:00] must be a safe place to find women to date. And so therefore I'm going to start going. It's you, know, I'm not here to turn away. People like that are honestly looking for women or, you know, just looking to get married.That's fine. But you know, like, especially in the church, right? Like sexual harassment, like that's never, there's never a good place for that, but people to keep trying, well, at least if I'm not, if I'm, if this isn't work, so I take it far from it, it's like, you're still gonna get dismissed. Like they're not going to keep this around. I mean, I could talk about stories of Lino in counseling, Christian counseling, where guys will, you know, coerce their wives into having sex with them because they'll use scripture to justify that. It's just like, I'm the head of the household. You need to submit to me. And so, you know, if I want sex now, like, you know, you're supposed to support me.And I'm just like, how's that working for you? Like, is this the really way? Is this really the way that's the way it's. You know, maintain a sex life is to coerce her. Like, are you even thinking about like the long-term effects of that and you know [00:25:00] what your long game sex life will be, if you continue to coerce her, but Hey, you know what?Yeah. I'll say this much before we move on like the church I used to go to has a very they have a very love, hate relationship with failure. It's like on one hand they want people to get married and they're just, they're just like, you know, marriage, isn't the end of job. It's like, it's a catalyst from a charity.Yeah. Go get married. But as soon as guys start to ask girls out and they say no, or, you know, they say, or, you know, they break up and things don't go as expected. All of a sudden they're like, oh, you know, shame on you. You shouldn't have done that. I feel like now she feels unsafe and, you know, frustrated or whatever.And it's like, like you can't have it both ways. And then they're like, why, why are these guys. Right. Like, how come no one's asking about girls anymore. It's like, cause he shamed them. Like you, you told them, oh, you did a bad job. It's like, I'm not, I'm not denying that some guys maybe live a little help or a little coaching and how to approach women in a way that they would actually engage well.But that's the problem, right? Instead of studying, Hey, you know, thank you for having the courage [00:26:00] to ask that girl, Hey, like where do you think things went wrong? Hey, maybe you tried this. Maybe you try that. You know, maybe you take a shower, maybe you brush your teeth. Right. You know, things, it's just, it's ridiculous to me because they'll because that's happened to me once that, you know, I tried to ask out a girl, I did it in a way that, you know, it was public.And I realized I was trying to put on the spot. I'm just like, no, I just want to go for it. And then everyone's just like, oh no, that was bad. Like he shouldn't have done that. Like just don't do it anymore instead of Hey, maybe next time you ask, if you ask a girl to do it, don't do it in front of the friends where you kind of, you know, put her in an awkward position.Right. You know, there's a more constructive way to deal with that, but yeah. Overall, yeah. It's the churches still want you to know about this, right? Cause then they'll say, well, let's, let's go along with this. I don't want to go to that shirt. It's like, well, you know, now you're just hiding things.And now this isn't about broken people, trying to find a place to heal. This is about you trying to build your machine and make sure that things are so polished. So then now people feel ashamed to bring things up that things are going poorly. But yeah. Anyway, I'll [00:27:00] I got rubbed up there for a second. So let me back off,De'Vannon: Oh, you, you preaching to me. I'm not, I'm not even going to say anything to 'em to follow that up. And it's gonna make me a little note because I may have you back on the show so we can spindle some church.That is a fascinating aspect of you, sir. I do appreciate that now. So you had mentioned, you got fired. I want you to, in one of your blogs, you talk about some emotions and y'all, he has a pretty cool blog on his website drafting leaders.com, which will be in the show notes. Can you talk about some emotions that happen?Anger, anxiety, disappointment, helplessness. Okay. So a lot of people have been laid off and fired because of the pandemics that's happening so much right now. Can you, can you talk about some of the unexpected, [00:28:00] unexpected, perhaps emotions that happened when you got fired?Jerry: yeah, sure. Yeah. For those of you who yeah. Who have been through a situation, whether you lost your job fairly or unfairly, right. Mine was fairly like, I just didn't get the job done. So let me preface this by saying that no, I deserve what I went. I got I say that to condemn myself. I'm just saying guys, when, if you don't get the job done, don't spend to keep your job, right? Yeah, at first I was intimidated because when the guy, you know, and the head of my department, you know, told me on a Friday afternoon, Hey, you need to come speak to me. I was like, well, you know, writing's on the wall. It's calendar. I knew that he didn't maybe with HR earlier, so this is kind of like the formality of What to do with it, you know, proceeded to walk into his office.And all I could do was remember to maintain eye contact, because I knew that even if I looked away because of shame or deference, like he was going to tell me to, you know, look at me when I was talking to them. Right. So I [00:29:00] I'm intimidated and all I can do is just kinda, you know, take the lumps and then tell us it's my last day.And I'm just stunned. And I'm just like, oh, like I knew it was coming. But like when the, when that final punch landed, it was just like, oh God, just sort of stunned because now, you know, I'm, I moved to Houston, you know, for this job. I, you know, my old position at my previous company was filled. Like they weren't going to take me back necessarily.I couldn't count on that. And so, you know, I'm just saying. Stunned and disappointed and, and ashamed that I, you know, I, I felt like I wasted this opportunity or this opportunity was no longer available to me, you know? And I thought, oh my gosh, you know, all my friends are going to ask questions and some people are going to like, judge me or be disappointed with me.Like, how could you let this happen? Right. And yeah, just even though I only lived four and a half miles from work, that was the longest drive. 'cause, you know, I had to return my parking pass and give back all my access materials. And then what [00:30:00] really hurt the next day. I mean, I knew they were going to do this, but just to, to experience it, you know, they, they cut off my login.They took away the, you know, they canceled all the, you know, my password and login name, things like that. So when I tried to log in and they know stuff the next day, just to see if it was still work, it obviously didn't. I said, wow, you know, clean up crew came in and I'm just like, I'm just sitting here shaved my head actually, just cause I was looking for something cathartic to do just cause I wasn't morning and you know, all this anxiety about, you know, what do I do next?I don't even know. And you know, I'm just sitting here just wondering if this would, if this is what would define my career, right? So all this uncertainty, all this anxiety, you goes through like the five stages of grief, right? Denial, anger, bargaining, you know, acceptance, all that stuff. But yeah, the first 24 hours, even 48 with terrible.And that first Monday after that Friday, God, I didn't have to go to work and I didn't, I couldn't go to work and I'm just sitting there thinking, how am I going to, how am I going to pay my bills? Like, you know, how am I going to keep money coming in so I can, I can [00:31:00] keep things up. So yeah, all of that was running through my head for sure.De'Vannon: What saved your hurry?Jerry: Yeah. Great question. It was a, it was a combination of things, kind of what I hinted at or referenced briefly in the first career path. So the first is the network. Well, both parts involved in network. The first part of the network was to kind of hand me a fish, right. To say, Hey Jerry, you know, we got a job you know we can, we can lie something up for you.Right. And so that was the first thing. And for me to really. Take that with both hands and never let go and make sure I, I was faithful to honor my friends for giving me another chance to, you know, find work. And then the second stage really was yeah. When I was helping teach leadership, right. That kind of helped unlock some, you know, mental possibilities about my effectiveness as a leader.And now I believe that if I put enough hard work into it and that I was willing to take constructive feedback and really [00:32:00] no longer avoid the things that I've been avoiding, maybe I would be good at this, but also to to see it modeled for me, right. They soccer, there's the phrase that leadership is more caught than taught. And I will give a shout out to a pharmacist named Michael Negretti, who is in my fraternity. And I tell people, Michael, you know, saved my career. Like where would I be without him? Right. And I say this because. You know, I, I paired up with him to help GCs workshops. They paired me up with him and, you know, I was just so excited cause I knew, you know, I liked the guy so much.I admired him for the work that he was doing. And so I got a firsthand look, you know, of how he motivated me, brought me along, helped equip me to really do my part well, and I thought to myself, why am I so willing to run through walls for this guy? Why do I want it to everything I can to come through for him?And I said, okay, let me list things out. I had time to reflect, which is another thing. Number one, he's fun to be around. He's just a fun. He's just fun. It's not abrasive. You know, he gets along well with people and he's likable number [00:33:00] two. He's fun to learn from like he's always reading in another interesting book or, you know, if he's reading about some clinical study and other things like that, he is a learner and it's fun to learn from it. So, other than. He doesn't lose his temper. Right. Houston, even keel, like no failures to fatal where we can't find another solution is always tinkering like right in the same way. He's always learning. He's always tinkering, always experimenting. And then bringing me alongside the age area. I did all this, you know, what do you think of this?Like, what am I missing? And so he was continually inviting me to collaborate. So now it's like, I feel like I, you know, I want to contribute something. Right. And then number four, work ethic. There's no question how hard he works. Right? Like he should be the hardest worker on the floor and not in the way where people would start to use that to justify their own laziness, but in a way that inspires me to work harder as well.It's like, oh, Mike's working harder than I've ever worked that hard too. So yeah, that's what saved my career.De'Vannon: So, what advice would you give to somebody who just lost their job?[00:34:00]Jerry: Yeah. No. The first thing is give yourself time in the morning, you know, 24 or 48 to 72 hours, just to, you know, be S you know, allow yourself to be sad about the fact that yeah. There was something in your life that you were counting on, right. That you found some satisfaction in that you've found some identity in.Right. Because, you know, what is the purpose of a job, right? Like you are exchanging time and effort to get compensation, right? So you take care of the company and the company in a ways taking care of you. Right. And so when that goes away, right. And you say, wow, like I, you know, I hate the fact that I don't have this anymore.It's okay. Like, it's okay to feel sad. Don't let it devolve into self-pity. But, you know, just take time to say, Hey, you know what I have to grasp with the fact that this is no longer a part of my life. Right. And then the second thing I would ask have people do is to ask themselves, [00:35:00] well, you know, what opportunities this has opened up for me you know, and to ask them, well, now that I have this free time, maybe I, maybe I experiment with the career that I've always wanted to have, but never had the chance to, because I was under other social obligations or other things that kept me from really pursuing this.Right. Another book to kind of throw on there, it's designing your life or designing your work life by bill Burnett and Dave Evans, because they talk about this that they, you realize that your work-life is an iterative process. You know what satisfied you five years ago may not satisfy you now.And what satisfies you now may not set aside of you five years from now. Right. You know, for me, pharmacy provided a lot of interesting moments and a decent quality of life, despite my ups and downs. And at the same time, I know now, like in five years, 10 years from. Like, I don't want it. I don't want a day-to-day pharmacy job, you know, and it's okay for my bosses to hear this.They know that the best ones usually move on to something bigger. But yeah, I I'd [00:36:00] say that would be, my advice is just to say, okay, yeah, grieve, reflect, you know, and then, you know, take action steps to really, you know, learn and interview and meet people in spaces that you want to learn from it. Just say, Hey, can I grab a cup of coffee and just kind of, you know, hear your take on things from where you are, and you're not looking for a job you don't have that you can if you want to, but don't have these interviews for the specific purpose of getting, trying to get a job, just learn and get a better idea of what's out.And then from there, then you can flip to the key question, which is how it's someone like me, you know, get involved in this space. Right? Because now you're still exploring instead of saying, Hey, can I just send you my resume? Right. That will set people down pretty quick. You have to make that transition in a way that's gentle and inviting instead of cushy.Right. Because if I go out and have these interviews in a whip and people know I'm super job?it's like, you know, bad salesmanship, Right. If, if people are like, oh, you know, you know, I'm going to send it for a free call with Jerry. [00:37:00] And I'm just pushing at them to like, by coach upselling, my coaching packages the whole time, I'm not going to have any kind of good reputation or any kind of real business.Right. Because they're just like, oh, Jerry's just baiting me to come in and then slamming me with stuff instead of really being the guide that I need to, you know, find my way in life.De'Vannon: Right. Thank you so much for breaking that down, Jerry now. And you mentioned that you had some bounce paychecks from an employer before and in and on your website. I was reading through your blog and you give a story about it on a reboot store there in Houston, Texas, who had to close his business down because of around, when I, you know, he was very sad for his employees and everything who were relying on him.And so what advice do you have for business owners who have had to cease operations for whatever the reason may be.Jerry: Yeah. I mean, and, and seeing that example up close, I think you know, part of it is [00:38:00]just admitting your limits, right. You know, on one hand, we, I love the fact that business owners are going to, you know, stay persistent and finding ways to say, Hey, you know what? Like, as soon as we believe this doesn't work, then you know that that's on us.Right. But I think if you realize, Hey, like this is not going to be a sustainable trajectory any longer. Yeah. You know, when, you know, the time is right, if you set some kind of mental tripwires to say, Hey, okay, if revenue just below like 50% of receivables or something like that, then okay. Now we need to hit a check and I need to because people can frame it two ways on one hand, it's like, sorry, I can't come through for you anymore.I know you didn't do anything to lose your job, but I still have to like go, but, you know, don't just settle for that. Like help them get on the feet, right. Make referrals, you know, help them, you know, help light a path for them so that they can kind of go through this process and start, you know, pursuing a job and other jobs that you know, that would help pay the bills and things like that.Cause that's one thing that people, [00:39:00] I think overlook is to say, oh, you know, these businesses closing so sad and it's like, yeah, on one hand, that's true. Like I've, I've lost a lot of great restaurants because you know Corona took them down. Like the Luby's chain has gone, snap kitchen is gone and both had their sheriff fans.Right. But as last I checked, right, there are plenty of people who are burnt out, like who are still employed. Right. So it sounds like there's, there's still no shortage of work that needs to be.done. It's just a matter of these people who lost their jobs to, you know, take take you know, another snapshot of the work that's still out there and say, okay, which work do I want to do?Right. Maybe that is the opportunity to free yourself up to, you know, start your own business or do other things in this space. And now that you you have the blessing of starting up to the market's been disrupted, so you don't have to start on a plan and that, oops, Corona hit now. Oh crap. I lost my, I lost my company or lost my job now.It's like, no, like the wave already came and now you can build a new sand castle. Right. So, you know, see what happens. De'Vannon: I love that analogy. The wave already came and you can build a new sand castle. Mines will [00:40:00] be three fucking stories. Jerry: There you go. De'Vannon: So Jerry, I want you to give me an example of some coaching that you did on any client of your choosing. I want to know what the problem was, what you did to help them, and then what the result was.Jerry: Yeah, sure. Yeah, let's give him some real give him an example with real meat to sink their teeth into. So I think one of the, one of the best examples that I heard from a client was you know the client was working for a very temperamental boss. She was managing a studio and you know, the boss was always very vacant his expectations and she would try to ask him, how am I doing?And he's like, oh, this is. But there was one day where it was after hours and the boss called and she was off the clock, so she didn't pick up and he just blew up at her the next day. It's like, how dare you out of that? I don't think you're committed to those thought about, it's like, well, you know what, like, where's this coming from?Right. You know, last I checked, you told me I was doing a great job. So, you know, where's this coming from? And you know, so she calls [00:41:00] me on a Thursday night and you know, she's like, Jerry, how do I navigate this? Right. Like, I really, really upset. I'm afraid I'm going to say something that's going to you know, either cause me to lose my job or things like that, because now I feel like I'm not say nice.And so I said, okay there's two kinds of co coaching approaches, right? Like the one that I'm certified in is you know, ask a lot of questions. Let the, let the client design their own solution. And, you know, that's ideally, you know, the default, but in this case, like if she has no frame of reference to work from now, you know, she needs more of like an athletic coach to say, okay, when you get on the field, right.I need you to look out for this and that and be ready to do this. And so yeah, we just said, okay. And this is in kind of in the framework that I, that I mentioned on my website with the PDF that I have available basically you have to, you have to imagine what would success look like? Like what's a successful conversation for today.Right. And so she thinks, okay, well, you know, we want to get that to a point where we can reconcile you know, that we can have [00:42:00] a better understanding of what the job requires and things like that. So, okay. What are, what are some key things you want to be sure to address? You know, what are some key things you want to be able to say there to your boss?You know, and so, you know, she told me, I said, okay, don't just write those down, rehearse them in a mirror. Right. Study, your tone study your posture, study, how you're coming across when you save these things. Right. And then, you know, practice with a friend if he needs to. But yeah, point being right, like get, kind of get strong in a dojo before he get back out on the street and mitigation anything.Right. And then, yeah, fine. Take that 10 seconds to Paris to initiate the conversation. Hey, you don't have to be like, okay, I'm strong enough. It's like, no, you seem to get the ball rolling so that you can't back out if you're scared. But you know, if you've rehearsed enough the way you need to then yeah.And then believe that you have that possibility that you can get back to working a strong working relationship. They might not be perfect. It might not be, you know, like the best where you're happy to see each other. But as long as you get to a point where you can trust [00:43:00] and respect each other at that in a professional sense, that should be enough.And you know, the email I got from her. Afterward when, you know, she managed to navigate that conversation and kind of, you know, find that closure, right. Instead of letting all that frustration, state Pence up in her and you know, for her to tell me, I don't know how I would've gotten through this without you. Like, I read that on a Saturday morning and I was.just so, I mean, I'm getting, I'm getting singles now. It's just thinking about it, telling you this.De'Vannon: I love the fact that, of all the, of all your experience and all the work that you've done. You, you chose an example that was you working like one-on-one with a person. And so that, that, that, again reinforces how, how personally invested you are in what you're doing, because, you know, you deal with larger groups of people, you know, in the workplace and everything, as well as individual people.And so I'm very impressed and very happy and refreshed as the right word, refresh that, you know, your go-to, you know, is, is, you know, is this getting back to why you're doing [00:44:00] what you're doing is to help ultimately individual people at the end of the day. And And so thank you for that, Jerry. Now you of course you bill yourself as a coach for Asian-American leaders, you know, because you're coming from that background.I want to know to what extent and if any book, both before COVID, and now that you've seen any sort of xenophobia, any sort of hatred against your people in the, how that if that's played a part in the workplace and in your coaching or not.Jerry: Yeah, great question. You know, thankfully for me I have not had any hate directed by way. But that being said, I mean, Houston is, is, you know, has this own share of, of xenophobia that is still evident today. The example that I can share is this is that a couple of years ago, I learned that Chinatown in Houston [00:45:00] was actually built on discrimination.And what I mean by that is it said, Hey, we don't like all the Asians, we're going to make it live in the Southwest part of the city. And here's the insult to injury through. And it is that a found out that they divided up the voting district in such a way where they couldn't concentrate all the people into One districts where they can actually have a a political voice.Right. And so just because discrimination is not causing direct, like physical violence doesn't mean it's okay. They're like, oh, well this is just silence oppression where no one's really getting hurt. It's like, okay, no, no, no, no. Let's let's unpack this a little more and not be afraid of that anymore.Cause we you know, OCA the local organization of Chinese Americans, they have all sorts of political advocacy workshops because they know that Asians are more likely to be screened at voting districts to be sheriff they're actually legitimately citizens. They know that, you know, numbers are stacked against this.Right. To think that, oh, like we can't accept too many Haitians. Cause they're like, you know, wrecking our grade curve or things like that. It's like, no, that's, [00:46:00] that's that's that's not cool. But yeah, I'll admit, it was reading about some of the hate crimes and like Atlanta and then New York, you know, where it's just so prevalent.And you know, when you hear about a lady who had asked it's like poured on her and things, and you're just kinda thinking, you know, like, and to talk to people about the Chinese exclusion act, right? Like they called it the Chinese exclusion act. They had the audacity to say this, this is specifically to exclude Chinese people.And then, you know, for them to say, oh yeah, we're past that. It's like, I don't know, guys. I feel like the more things change, the more things stay the same.De'Vannon: One of those sneaky bastards over there and used to how dare they.I'm pretty sure I've been through that. Chinatown's since when I live there now I'll never look at it the same then there's, I'm hearing that there's so much more that you, that you know, and can say about the xenophobia targeted there in [00:47:00] Houston. And so when I have you back on, besides the billing, the T on the churches are going to spill some of that good old Southern Houston tea is well, darling.Yeah.Jerry: stories for you for sure. De'Vannon: Yeah, I was going to get good. And you know, reading is fundamental is a mama Ru Paul would say. And I think, I, I think our next interview, we're going to read some bitches , some church bitches and some, some Houston sounds like that's some Republican nonsense on over there.So let's talk about your salsa dancing. Seeing when I, I was so thrilled, thrilled to see that you are a confident enough in your manhood and all of your shit to to, to also be a salsa dance dancer that put it out there on all of your. [00:48:00] Platforms and everything like that. None of the words that I've said today have phased you.And I'm very, very, very, very impressed with you as a human soul. And I used to take hip hop dance and like funk at planet funk and Houston, Texas under Shawn Welling. And then I also taught hip hop when I was in the air force for a group of little eight year old girls for like a season and stuff like that.Cause the instructor, she ain't have, no, she didn't have no soul saying no flavor. You know, she's a white girl, you know, I love my white people, but you know, not all y'all hip hop inclined. And so, and then kudos to her because she understood her strengths and what she could and couldn't do. She was like, I can't do hip hop, but I believe you can.And I was like, Okrrrr!, I got you.Jerry: In a way that's complimentary, not stereotypical. Oh, you're black. you.liked hip hop and fried chicken, [00:49:00] right? I mean, come on. And they're just like, I resent that you're right. But I still resent that. De'Vannon: Right.So and so no, no two words is my dead aunt would say no truer words have ever been spoken. And God I've taken salsa classes there and Houston as well, you know, it's like big deal. You know, the Hispanic influence is a big deal. Lots of fucking drunk nights with sauce, like chips and salsa, salsa, and margarita is Margaret Reed.And so I want you to tell us what would your initial sauce and inspiration was? My favorite blog on your website is the one about salsa. And so what, what y'all, what Jerry has done is he's taken and he's pulled the lessons from salsa out and converted them over. Transfer them may the pilot of the transferable skills, which transfer from the salsa dance floor into the business world.Much like you would say, like from [00:50:00] sports, but dancing is as good of a sport to me as anything else. And then you broke them down and we're going to go through each of them, command confidence, creativity, communication, and commitment. One by one. But tell me what, when, when did you first think I want to do salsa?Jerry: Yeah, it was it was kind of just an unexpected thing, really. My freshman year at rice they had a spring formal with the salsa theme and the lesson was terrible, but then like they just taught us like a couple of basic steps and the thing nothing really to shout about. And so, you know, me and my days later trying it out or just like, this is boring and difficult and we're not neither of us to having any fun.So I'm just going to leave it alone for a while. Right. That failure averse. And that kept me from so many things. I just said, I'm just going to shelf this like forever. And then it wasn't till I got to Memphis for pharmacy school. When a friend of a friend was actually trying to start at the scene in Memphis.And by my third year in school, I was tired of studying. And my, and my GPA kind of gel to a point where I could like, like nothing too [00:51:00] high or too low, really like change it. So I just said, you know, I'm just going to spend more time. Dancing and investing in lessons because I'm just tired of studying. So actually got somewhat decent at it and started to get to a point where I just enjoyed it.I even bought my own DVDs, you know, this study of it on my own. And then right, as I've got to a point where I was comfortable, social dancing, I graduated, I moved to Knoxville where there is no salsa. There was swing dancing, which, you know, I, at one point I loved and learned, but that was like, at this point I was hooked on salsa.And so I went through this really unproductive cycle of like lack of confidence, but I miss it. And then, you know, so I want to go and try dancing it, but then rusty and then, you know, I'd get just a glimpse of what things could be and then it would just shut down again. And then even after I moved back to Houston, 11 years ago Most of the friends I initially made the second time around in Houston were into two-stepping.And so I was like, well, you know, peer pressure, here we go. Let me just learn how to two steps, which you know, which is still dancing in a way that still helps [00:52:00] me with my confidence as the answer. And then, so finally in salsa was dormant. That was, I was still going to occasional socials, but again, still in the same cycle, but it wasn't until 2014, when a Venezuelan friend invited me to a free salsa dancing event at the downtown aquarium on Bagby. And there was this one hot blonde there. That was a really good dancer. And I, I have to, I have to dance up there and, you know, I get a chance I'm like locked in, you know, like I'm not freezing up. I'm not forgetting moves. I'm just like throwing everything I can on the table. And, you know, she gives me a hug at the end and I said, why did I stay away from this for so long?And then I'm like, okay, I'm back. And so, yeah. Got burnt out on church volunteerism and replace it with salsa?dancing. I was a whole lot happier. So that's a, yes, it's been a regular thing ever since. And then the funny thing is just to see it Come full circle where rice started an actual salsa club about five years ago.And when I jumped in it clearly. [00:53:00] Got to a point where I was better off helping us and start from the chest, trying to take, you know, like, you know, cheap lessons from here. And yeah, it's just been great. And also, you know, me and a couple of the dancer friends, occasionally we'll also even host dance lessons as fundraisers to raise money and awareness for causes we care about.And so it's just been this generosity model where it's just fun, where, you know, we get to teach and elevate the quality of dancers and people get a quality lesson and then, you know, good causes get support. So yeah, dancing is just been such a big part of my transformation because now right in the same way, leadership.Oh, salsa dancing. Oh, I couldn't be good at this. Well, what if I could, if I put enough work and wow, this is amazing. I have to keep doing it and that one, I want others to enjoy it as much as I do. So. Yeah. That's kind of the journey.De'Vannon: Come on dancing with the stars. I look forward to your debut in bay. Okay. So the first thing command that you say this step means, or this aspect of salsa means you have to take care of the people you were leading and know where you are taking them. Give me more.Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. [00:54:00] Basically, right. You have to know what the in dancing, right? It's like, you have to know a couple moves ahead and it kind of queued up so that you're not just like forgetting what it is. It's like, you have to have a target in mind. It's like, well then it's not even about the movies. It is.I want this girl to enjoy dancing with me. Right. And so same thing with your team. It's like, I want my team to have a good day and put by having a good day, we hit a financial target and you know, we're communicating well. And so when you are confident in what success is for them, not just because you want it, but because you know, it's in their best interest things go tend to go a lot better for you.So yeah. Command this, just being, yeah. That having that, I'm going to set a good tone when it comes to a good work environment or being a good dance partner. De'Vannon: Hey, nothing like a boss in true control. Be it. I was going to say a man in control, but you know what? It could be a woman to tie me up, baby, time me up. And then confidence. It says in dancing, confidence comes from. A solid grasp of fundamentals, [00:55:00] which includes learning moves and how to recover when you mess up.Jerry: Yeah. You know, you can't afford to be knocked off your perch, right? If you, if someone kind of throws a curve ball your way, there was a, if there was a hook you're not ready for a boom. Right. And then you're like, okay, how do I recover? Right. They don't talk about that. Cause a lot of leaders and I mean, that was true for me too.Right. You think you go in and you're like, okay, act like I know what I'm doing. And then someone just hits you from the side or an angle. You're not ready for it. Then all of a sudden, you kind of cower and it's like that we can't afford to do that needed to be ready for anything that things are valued.So part of it is just learning on the fly. You're just like, okay, well all right. If all else fails, I'm just reset. Let me hear things. Okay. Let me, let's, let's go back to what we know is good for us. So yeah. De'Vannon: All right. And creativity says the best dancers are not predictable. Rather. They use variety to keep things interesting for their partners.Jerry: Yeah. The gauge I use at work, because I have at least one to two technicians that like to be on this and we'll have a morning [00:56:00] huddle for daily. And my gauge as to whether or not the meeting is interesting enough is whether or not they actually put down their phones. Excellent. Listen to me, without me telling them to.Right. So if I'm telling a compelling story, right. All of a sudden, all of that got my attention. Okay. Now, now, now I know that I'm getting through to them right now. I know I can, I have five they're listening really well. And so, yeah, so on one hand, the routine is good. You want that regular daily meeting because that helps you assess things and plan things and such, but to add some degree of variety just to kind of, you know, throw in a new spice in the recipe, rice.So you're not just eating the, this jumbo life is boring now. It's like, okay, well, you know, let's just, maybe we just add more cayenne or, you know, whatever else like that. Right. So yeah, just mix it up on them. It's just more fun that way when they're just like whichever we'll have for me today. And it's usually good.It's usually a good mentality because now they're open to what I have to share with them. De'Vannon: Preach and okay then communication. The epicenter here was [00:57:00] that finesse is better than force.Jerry: Yeah. You know, I, I, one had we joke about this dancing where you can't just food feed your moves. You're like, I'm going to turn you to the right now. Like you're not going to be able to say those things over the music, let alone everybody else. Right. You got to be able to we say dancing, you know, be firm, but gentle.Right? It's like, there should be no quest

This episode features an interview with Heidi Bullock, CMO of Tealium, a company that connects data from all different sources so brands can better connect to their customers. Prior to Tealium, Heidi was the CMO of Engagio and Global VP of Marketing at Marketo. On this episode, Heidi talks about what it means to be CMO of Tealium, why the rise of data driven marketers is so important, and her top do's and don't for customer event marketing during a pandemic. -------------------“...know where your audience is. And I know that seems obvious, but I think even in social, you often see people saying, ‘oh, we've got to do LinkedIn, Facebook, Tiktok', you name it. But if your audience isn't there, maybe that doesn't make sense. So I think before you even think about channels and tactics, make sure you know who you're marketing to. Who you're trying to engage with and where they are and then how they prefer to be communicated to.” — Heidi Bullock-------------------Episode Timestamps:*(1:52) - Heidi's first job in demand*(2:17) - What being CMO means at Tealium*(3:44) - Segment: The Trust Tree*(4:49) - Who Tealium's customers are*(8:45) - The rise of date driven marketers *(11:00) - How Heidi structures her marketing organization*(14:26) - Segment: The Playbook*(16:34) - Tips on customer events*(20:20) - Heidi's marketing don'ts*(31:49) - Heidi's all-time favorite campaign she's ran*(32:14) - Segment: The Dust-Up*(35:50) - How Heidi views Tealium's website*(37:14) - Segment: Quick Hits-------------------SponsorDemand Gen Visionaries is brought to you by Qualified.com, the #1 Conversational Marketing platform for companies that use Salesforce and the secret weapon for Demand Gen pros. The world's leading enterprise brands trust Qualified to instantly meet with buyers, right on their website, and maximize sales pipeline. Visit Qualified.com to learn more.-------------------LinksConnect with Heidi on LinkedInFollow Heidi on Twitter Follow Ian on TwitterConnect with Ian on LinkedInwww.caspianstudios.com

In this episode, host Shahin Hoda chats with Jon Miller, CMO of Demandbase, about the current state of account-based marketing and why organisations should consider moving to its more grown-up sibling.  Based on his years of experience founding and managing global companies such as Marketo and Engagio, Jon highlights the mistakes marketers make while executing their ABM strategy and why Account-Based Experience (ABX) is the next frontier.  Jon discusses how ABX uses the tools provided by ABM hand-in-hand with the customer experience focus of demand generation. Jon concludes the discussion by sharing his take on the future of Account-Based Experience (ABX) and how it will evolve in the next three years.  Ready the show notes: https://xgrowth.com.au/blogs/move-from-abm/ Join the Slack channel: https://growthcolony.org/slack

If you've followed me long enough, you know that I tend to talk about two things - Content Marketing and Sales/Marketing Alignment.The best part for me, is that I am a bit of a Marketing Technology geek, which allows me to tie all of those things together.From Creative, to Sales, to Marketing - No matter which business team you're on - your end goal is to figure out who to sell to, how to engage with them, how to get them to buy, and if you're smart, how to get them to buy again.To do that today, you need to give careful consideration of your Sales and Marketing Technology. And today's guest is an entrepreneur behind several of the leading technologies.My guest today is a marketing entrepreneur and thought leader. He is currently the Chief Marketing and Product Officer at Demandbase, the leading account-based marketing platform.Previously, he was the CEO and founder of Engagio (which was acquired by Demandbase) and he was a co-founder at Marketo, a leader in marketing automation which was acquired by Adobe.He is a frequent speaker at conferences including Dreamforce, MarketingProfs B2B, and the Marketing Nation Summit.He has written the “Complete and Clear Guide to Account Based Marketing” and the “Definitive Guide to Marketing Automation.”Therefore it is my absolute honor to welcome to the podcast Jon Miller!Conversation points: Jon, I have studied, short listed, purchased, and used so many of the platforms that you've been a part of creating… that I almost don't even know where to start.  So can you give us a quick journey through some of the companies that you've helped develop? What's your backstory? Is this a path that you set out on (to develop software) or did this path evolve? Jon, I noticed that you are not shy about interviews, podcasts, and creating video content. And I think that is working very well for you. What would you say to other executives about creating content? As mentioned, currently, you're the CMO and Product Officer at DemandBase.Any way you Google it or research it, you will find a list that says DemandBase is at the top of the list as a top ABM platform. You may also see Engagio on that list, which is now also a part of DemandBase. Can you tell us how that marriage of technologies between Engagio and DemandBase happened and what the synergies are? I recently heard you describe Account Based Marketing as “fishing with spears rather than fishing with nets”. I love that visualization.A company that I founded, Content Monsta, is based on helping companies fish with nets through inbound content, but recently (especially with the growth of our podcast services,) we see more opportunities to help clients create more targeted outbound content towards the accounts that they want to work with.  What are some of the other creative ways that you have seen companies step into ABM? Where does content fit into an Account Based strategy? As a content producer, how do we help clients decide how wide or narrow their content should be when targeting a specific audience? By the way, I love the DemandBase TV section of your website. I am going to absolutely use that as an example for my customers as to how content can be leveraged. I love it. - How did that initiative come about and how is it working so far? Even considering your position Jon, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who loves to evangelize Sales and Marketing alignment than me. And as a company steps into Account Based Marketing, the need for this alignment typically becomes more apparent. What are your thoughts on Sales and Marketing alignment as it concerns ABM? Is this where the Account Based Experience concept comes in? Please give some insight on how we've evolved to Account Based Experience?  Jon, Let me ask you a question about something that I think is a part of the wedge between Sales and Marketing.Marketers, in my opinion, are not realizing the shifts in where a company's revenue is coming from. We are often so focused on (and measured by) the top of the funnel, that we miss the opportunity to market to existing customers. And as a result, these organizations have the notion that these existing customers belong more to Sales than to Marketing. How can we resolve some of these outdated thoughts on what marketing owns and should be measured by? Jon, I'd like to ask you one “Get it Off Your Chest” Question: If there was one thing that you wish Marketers or Sales would grow to understand that would help them today, what would it be? Before we go Jon, please share anything else that you have coming up - that the audience needs to know or where can we find you online?Thanks to the listeners. If you're listening to the podcast and want to also “see” Jon and I,  - video of this podcast and OTHERS are available in the podcast section of ContentMonsta.com.This podcast is produced by Content Monsta - A leading producer of B2B Content.

This week we have our first official guest on the podcast. Sure, we've had our producer Alec talk a few times, but that doesn't count. We're talking about a REAL guest. The OG of account-based… well, everything: Jon Miller (CMO of Demandbase). Not only did he co-found Marketo, where he helped transform marketing automation. But as founder of Engagio (which was later acquired by Demandbase), Jon drove the account-based marketing phenomenon. So, today we're talking about, you guessed it, account-based everything, or what Jon now calls ABX (account-based experience). About the Guest: Connect with Jon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2  Follow Jon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jonmiller  Learn more about Demandbase: http://demandbase.com  Demandbase TV: https://your.demandbase.com/dbtv/the-abxperience  Get The Clear and Complete Guide to Account-Based Experience: https://demandbase.com/guide Follow the Hosts on LinkedIn: Jordan Henderson (Director of Revenue Operations) | https://bit.ly/JH-Linkedin Brandon Redlinger (Sr. Director of Product Marketing) | https://bit.ly/BR-Linkedin Jonathan Stevens (Sr. Marketing Operations & Automation Manager) | https://bit.ly/JS-Linkedin   Sponsored by: ringDNA | Transform your sales team into a high-performing revenue engine | www.ringDNA.com Explore the ringDNA Podcast Universe: Sales Enablement Podcast | https://bit.ly/SEP-LP Selling with Purpose Podcast | https://bit.ly/SWP-LP RevOps Podcast | https://bit.ly/RP-LP

The B2B buyer's journey has changed dramatically and the role of marketers to influence that journey has shifted with it (and continues to!). As the original Marketo Co-founder and Founder of Engagio, Jon Miller predicted marketing automation's rise and now he's setting out new predictions for how marketers will need to align themselves to customers, bottom-of-funnel metrics and post-sale revenue.   In this session replay from the B2BMX online experience in February, Miller, who is now the Chief Marketing and Product Office at Demandbase, discusses these recent trends in buying and how new research on sales and marketing alignment highlights the explicit ways revenue teams can set themselves apart from the competition.   Check it out to learn:   How to implement account-based best practices from leading practitioners;    To recognize what works — and doesn't — for engaging accounts in conjunction with sales; and   What's in store for B2B marketing in the next 10 years.    P.S. We just wrapped up our B2B Marketing Exchange Online Experience! If you missed out, you could catch it on demand! For our podcast listeners only, you can use the code VIPDGRAUD to access it all!   RELATED LINKS  Learn more about Demandbase.   Get The Clear & Complete Guide To ABX.  Check out the B2BMX: Next-Level ABM event on-demand.  Watch Klaudia's CXO Conversations interview with Jon.   Read the official B2B Sales & Marketing Exchange (#B2BSMX) announcement  Check out the #B2BSMX website to sign up for updates. 

What if a product marketer actually started their career in sales, and was good at sales?  That's who Brandon Redlinger is and he shares a wealth of information about what good product marketers do to help their sales teams succeed The 5 Key Pillars of Product Marketing Defining your value metric What is your value metric and how does it help with building prices How do you know when to increase price Navigating the pricing objection How do you know when your product is ready to be sold How often should sales and product marketing be talking? What goes into determining price  

Imagine being the co-founder of not one, but two uber-successful, leading marketing software companies! This week on the Revenue Engine Podcast, Jon Miller, Co-founder of global marketing automation platform Marketo and ABM software Engagio, and currently the CMO of Demandbase, talks with Rosalyn about his entrepreneurial journey, and his vision for marketing. Jon shares how he built a brand for his tech-platform, and worked incredibly hard to find a way to differentiate, in a category that already existed. *ABM: Account Based Marketing, ABX: Account Based Experience Connect with https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2/ (Jon Miller) Connect with Rosalyn https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosalyn-santa-elena/ (Santa Elena ) Connect with https://salesiqglobal.com/ (Sales IQ Global)

MarTech legend Jon Miller, co-founder of Marketo and Engagio, and now CMO at Demandbase joins Oktopost's Managing Director EMEA, Colin Day, filling in for host Jennifer Gutman on this episode of Radically Transparent, brought to you by Oktopost. Back in 2018, Marketo was purchased by Adobe for $4.75B, and Engagio was recently acquired by Demandbase. Jon reveals in this episode about what keeps him up at night professionally, discloses how he found himself in the world of marketing automation, what he's learned on his journey to becoming a founding father and leading MarTech visionary and how he stays relevant in the market by thinking beyond Account Based Marketing (ABM). He even discloses his own ABM strategy and gives a few valuable tips and pointers to getting started with an effective ABM plan.

Just because someone fills out a form doesn't mean they're ready to talk to a salesperson. Two problems stem from this fact: the problem of discerning which leads are ready and the problem of how to nurture the ones that aren't. Welcome to the explosion of martec. In this episode, I interview Jon Miller is Chief Marketing and Product Officer at Demandbase and previously co-founder at Marketo and Engagio, about account-based experience (ABX): Among the things we talked about were: - The evangelistic sale - The analogous relationship between CX and ABX, and B2C and B2B - Who's responsible for company culture (not just the CEO) - MBAs are important for career switchers Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog. Listening on a desktop & can't see the links? Just search for the Customer Experience Podcast in your favorite podcast player.

Ray Carroll is a B2B SaaS leader, best known for his rise at Marketo. Ray was employee #28 at Marketo and rode the IPO wave there, climbing from AE to Sales Manager, Director, and SVP in the process. Following that, he was the VP Sales at Engagio and Skilljar and is a Limited Partner at the GTMfund. In this wide-ranging conversation, Ray and I talk about: What it was like at Marketo from $1M to $100M+ in growth What are "sales guts" and why is that a separator for reps? The fork in the road: Should you be an Enterprise Rep or Sales Manager? And much more... You can reach out to Ray on LinkedIn to learn more about him. If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to grow this show and find the best guests possible for you. Follow The Podcast: Apple/Spotify: Millennial Sales Twitter: TommyTahoe Instagram: TommyTahoe YouTube: TommyTahoe Website: Millennialmomentum.net

Ray Carroll is a B2B SaaS leader, best known for his rise at Marketo. Ray was employee #28 at Marketo and rode the IPO wave there, climbing from AE to Sales Manager, Director, and SVP in the process. Following that, he was the VP Sales at Engagio and Skilljar and is a Limited Partner at the GTMfund. In this wide-ranging conversation, Ray and I talk about: What it was like at Marketo from $1M to $100M+ in growth What are "sales guts" and why is that a separator for reps? The fork in the road: Should you be an Enterprise Rep or Sales Manager? And much more... You can reach out to Ray on LinkedIn to learn more about him. If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to grow this show and find the best guests possible for you. Follow The Podcast: Apple/Spotify: Millennial Sales Twitter: TommyTahoe Instagram: TommyTahoe YouTube: TommyTahoe Website: Millennialmomentum.net

Partner co-selling discussion with Ray Carroll (Former VP at Marketo, Engagio, and Skilljar). Topics include: Why there is no better time to evaluate new strategies for breaking into top accounts Key successes that Ray has had co-selling in his career How to pitch your boss to invest in co-selling platforms

Today we're speaking with Megan Heuer. She's a veteran of ABM practices, she's worked with Gartner, Peppers and Rogers, Sirius Decisions, Forrester, Engagio and now a consulting group in The Bay Area called Winning by Design. She shared so many insights into best practices around ABM for High ACV deals, including a really interesting way of calculating LTV.

It's makeover time. In this live show, CEO and Co-founder of Directive, Garrett Mehrguth, and a SaaS marketing leader work together to build a strategy for a recognizable SaaS brand - as quickly as possible. The company will be randomly selected by spinning a wheel at the beginning of the show, and together, the two will craft a strategy for SaaS marketing leaders everywhere. Today's guest... the queen of growth marketing, Megan Heuer!

Mo' choices, mo' problems. ABM continues to flip the way marketers are landing and retaining high-value customers, leaving us with more choices than ever. Products. Frameworks. Workflows. Strategies. Best practices. Plus, there are new ABM technologies and insights coming out every day. Luckily, we have access to some of the greatest minds in ABM. In this inaugural episode of The ABM Podcast, we get to know our hosts, Christine Farrier, Senior Director at Demandbase, and Brandon Redlinger, Head of Growth at Engagio. Along with Kelsey Kohrs of Sweet Fish Media, the group discusses: Why more choices are making it harder to optimize ABM tech stacks and strategies What all levels of ABM marketers can expect to learn from this show The kinds of ABM pros listeners can look forward to hearing from Resources mentioned in this episode: Members of the ABM Leadership Alliance Stay informed w/ the ABM Leadership Alliance newsletter Follow the Alliance on Twitter @ABMLA1 The ABM Podcast is co-hosted by Christine Farrier and Brandon Redlinger of the ABM Leadership Alliance. Never miss an episode by subscribing to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Jon Miller, CEO of Engagio, shares the big 5 metrics for account-based marketing.

5 Key Takeaways: The Marketing Trends team sat down with some CEOs at the SiriusDecisions B2B Marketing Summit 2019, and have compiled the highlights on this episode. Our top 5 takeaways from these conversations: - The best content is that which you are uniquely positioned to create. "We challenge our brands to dig deep to figure out what is the one thing you can do that no one else can? If you go swimming in the sea of sameness, bad things will happen." - With a general transition toward subscriptions, focusing on new business is not as relevant anymore as the post-sale and customer journey expansion. - The goal of marketing is to facilitate value-creating transactions. - In order for an ABM strategy to succeed, it requires buy-in from the entire organization, not just parts of marketing and/or sales. - To handle escalations, be blatantly transparent and clear about how you're going to fix the problem. Click here for full notes & show notes: http://bit.ly/2xkNbaA Interviewees: Shafqat Islam is the Cofounder & CEO of NewsCred. Jon Miller is the Cofounder & CEO of Engagio. Eric Spett is the CEO of Terminus. Bryan Wade is the CEO of Sigstr.  Marketing Trends is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Pardot, B2B marketing automation on the world's #1 CRM. Are you ready to take your B2B marketing to new heights? With Pardot, marketers can find and nurture leads, close more deals, and maximize ROI. Learn more by heading to www.pardot.com/podcast. To learn more or subscribe to our weekly newsletter, visit MarketingTrends.com.

No one knows Account Based Marketing better than Jon Miller. Jon is known as the godfather of ABM. As the CEO and co-founder of Engagio he has helped define the market. And marketing innovation is nothing new to Jon. He also co-founded Marketo and served as a VP at Epiphany. On this episode, Jon talks all about ABM, including most common mistakes and best practices for getting started. He also gives advice of how more marketers can become successful founder and what he thinks the next big innovation will be in marketing. For full notes and show notes, click here. To nominate yourself or someone else to be interviewed for a live episode at SiriusDecisions2019, click here. Marketing Trends is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Pardot, B2B marketing automation on the world's #1 CRM. Are you ready to take your B2B marketing to new heights? With Pardot, marketers can find and nurture leads, close more deals, and maximize ROI. Learn more by heading to www.pardot.com/podcast. To learn more or subscribe to our weekly newsletter, visit MarketingTrends.com.

Our guest is Jon Miller, CEO and Co-Founder of Engagio. Here are some of the questions Matt covers: When did you see the ABM wave coming?  At what point did you start to realize that lead-based wasn't going to cut it anymore? One of my biggest concerns with the term ABM is the “marketing” part of it, but “everything” feels too broad.  How do you think about that?  Culture is a big part of making ABM work internally.  How do you encourage people to make the right internal moves to be successful with ABM? This isn't all-or-nothing right?  How does ABM integrate with other key marketing priorities moving forward? About our guest: Jon Miller Jon is a marketing entrepreneur and thought leader. He is currently the CEO and co-founder of Engagio, an account-centric platform to orchestrate and measure Account Based Marketing and Sales Development efforts at named accounts. Previously, Jon was a co-founder at Marketo (Nasdaq:MKTO), a leader in marketing automation. Marketing technology innovator, with previous leadership roles at Epiphany and Xchange, plus board/advisory roles at Scripted, Newscred, and Optimizely. About Engagio Making Account Based Marketing Easy and Scalable We help B2B marketers drive new business and expand relationships with high-value accounts. With Engagio's Account Based Marketing Automation Platform you can execute and measure account-centric programs in one complete solution.   People and Culture At Engagio we are united by a common vision of marketing that uses data and analytics to be more intelligent and the human touch to be more relevant. Our goal is to create the next great marketing platform. We believe it's important that Engagio is a place where employees enjoy working, where happiness and positivity thrives, and where excellence is rewarded. We know this is a journey, which is why we care about taking care of our people. We believe people do the best work when they have the freedom to figure out their own tactics, combined with radical transparency and alignment on strategy and objectives. We believe the best workplace perk is having great colleagues who focus on excellence and execution, on continuous testing and learning, and on helping each other to be great.  

On this edition of The Predictable Revenue podcast, hosts Collin Stewart and Aaron Ross welcome Phill Keene, the newly minted Director of Sales at Costello, a startup building an intelligent sales assistant, or “co-pilot” for sales reps. Phill is making waves for his work helping sales teams hit quota and drive revenue ­– he's been recognized as a “2017 Top 25 Most Influential Inside Sales Professional” by AA-ISP and a “Top 50 Sales Development Leaders You Should Know” by Engagio. Throughout the pod, Collin, Aaron and Phill revisit something near and dear to Aaron's heart: Predictable Revenue's Mapping Calls methodology. Phill has been using, and evolving mapping calls with his team, and wanted to share his thoughts on the topic. Highlights include: the importance of calling high (2:51), asking for permission (6:13), getting the internal referral (15:30), and calling low (24:32).  

On this edition of The Predictable Revenue podcast, hosts Collin Stewart and Aaron Ross welcome Phill Keene, the newly minted Director of Sales at Costello, a startup building an intelligent sales assistant, or “co-pilot” for sales reps. Phill is making waves for his work helping sales teams hit quota and drive revenue ­– he's been recognized as a “2017 Top 25 Most Influential Inside Sales Professional” by AA-ISP and a “Top 50 Sales Development Leaders You Should Know” by Engagio.  Throughout the pod, Collin, Aaron and Phill revisit something near and dear to Aaron's heart: Predictable Revenue's Mapping Calls methodology. Phill has been using, and evolving mapping calls with his team, and wanted to share his thoughts on the topic. Highlights include: the importance of calling high (2:51), asking for permission (6:13), getting the internal referral (15:30), and calling low (24:32).  

Justin Gray, CEO and founder at LeadMD, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss partner relationships and breakups, trusting data, success in the channel and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Transcription   Man: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host, Jen Spencer, as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast, the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners.   Jen: Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound, and today I am joined by Justin Gray, who is CEO and founder of LeadMD. Welcome, Justin.   Justin: Thanks for having me.   Jen: Well, it's so good to have you, and for those of you who are listening who don't know, Justin brings a lot of expertise, I'm really excited to have him on the podcast. In addition to being the CEO and founder of LeadMD, he's also a weekly columnist at Inc., the CEO and cofounder at Six Bricks, managing partner at Gray Matter Ventures, partner at Grayson Organics, and CMO and cofounder at PaidSuite. That's a lot. You're a busy, busy man.   Justin: It's a mouthful.   Jen: Yeah. I'm sure our listeners are going to be able to gain a wealth of knowledge from you. So, Justin, tell us a little bit about these companies that you work with.   Justin: Sure, I've kind of picked different organizations up along the way almost by accident, but, really, the centerpiece organization that I'm a part of is LeadMD, a digital marketing consultancy. Out of that kind of sprung the need to educate and match great marketers with employers, and that's what Six Bricks does. I've since formed a little venture, a very little venture organization called Gray Matter Ventures that I'm using to feed organizations, including Six Bricks. Then I've got some other ventures in the payments world, and then a very unprofitable labor of love known as Grayson Organics, which is actually my family's farm that we converted into organic in 2008 and have been running small field crops ever since.   Jen: That's awesome. So, what we talk about here on the show is partner programs and partner channels. And, so being a founder, a cofounder, on the executive team of these organizations, you have a lot of experience running companies and contributing to these organizations. In your experience, when do you think the best time is to start a partner channel program?   Justin: Yeah, it's kind of like that old question of when's the best time to plant a tree? Twenty years ago, the second best today. Obviously it does depend on the business model. The payments business that I'm a part of operates exclusively through the channel, so we started that organization with the notion that we would be managing and maintaining a completely outsourced sales channel to sell and implement our products. So, look at the model through which you want to sell, if that's going to be totally outsourced to the channel, or if that's going to be a blend.   Have a consorted channel strategy right from the beginning and tackle really difficult questions like who's going to market on behalf of the organization, are you going to do it from a corporate level, are you going to shove that down to and empower the franchisees or channel partners to do that on their own behalf? Those are decisions that are always best made right upfront, and so I think just as with anything, developing a really strong strategy from the beginning and executing towards that consistently is what we see as a recipe for growth.   Jen: Would you mind sharing why you decided to sell exclusively through channel for that organization?   Justin: Yeah, so sales is all about trust, and that particular organization, which is PaidSuite, sells integrated payment products. So we looked at the marketplace and we could've formed our own inside sales channel and tried to penetrate the market from scratch, but, instead, we chose to actually partner with software organizations and ISOs that already had existing relationships and add our suite of products to their repertoire. So, it just really allowed us to break down those trust barriers, accelerated our speed to market, and led to a good deal of success within that business. I think, had we chosen to try to kind of brute force it and spin up our own inside sales channel, it would've been a much longer time to market. It would've been a lot more investment on education and training, and just empowering that force. So, again, it was the right decision for us based on what we wanted to accomplish in the business within our first 24 months.   Jen: Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely. I think what's really cool about you and your perspective is that you have that business where you are going to market through these partners, but then with LeadMD, you are a partner of many technology organizations that I know a lot of our listeners would know about. And, so you get to see both sides of it, and that, I think, brings this other layer of expertise to you that a lot of people don't have. Most people pretty much live on one side of the fence or the other.     Justin: Right. Yeah, actually, one of our strongest verticals is channel sales. We've got organizations like Blue Cross Blue Shield, we've got a lot of med device organizations, Mobi, just organizations that are dependent upon that extra layer of support, and again that provides a lot of interesting challenges from a marketing standpoint. It presents a lot of opportunities to empower those sales channels, educate them, and, obviously, we got to keep them up-to-date on the quickly evolving world that we all live in. So, definitely a huge amount of opportunity, and then we really do see the folks that are empowering their channel partners through marketing and through education. That's a strategic advantage for our organization, absolutely.   Jen: Let's talk more about that. With all of your experience, I'm sure you've created a number of strategic alliances that have been fruitful. Maybe you've even seen some that have fell flat, whether they're partnerships that you've been a part of or that you've been supporting from an agency perspective. I'm wondering if there was any sort of recipe or repeating factor that you could recognize in a partner or in a partnership that would signal this makes sense, this is a mutually beneficial alliance.   Justin: Yeah, and that's always a really difficult prediction to have right upfront. My crystal ball is broken, so what may seem like a great partnership where everyone's aligned and we're going to go to market together and achieve this awesome amount of success is often not the case. You really need to be careful about whether this is going to be truly a value equation, as we term it, presenting equal value on both sides. And, so we've tried to get more formalized throughout the years at LeadMD as we've taken a look at the types of partners that we would potentially want to work with, the types of partnerships that have worked well in the past, and really gauge new potentials on that scale. So, we've actually kind of developed a partner evaluation framework that we leverage when we're looking at a new partner.   Having worked with over 3,000 B2B technology organizations, we have a lot of folks that want access to our customer base, but that isn't always a as I mentioned a balanced equation. We're often not getting the same amount as we're putting in there, so we've kind of tried to really hone in on what makes a successful partnership. For us, it really does come down to the fact of can we wrap services around that partner offering? Does it lead to more work, frankly, for our organization? We're a time and materials billing organization, so we need to figure out a way to build clients and provide value. And if the partner solution doesn't enable us to do so, it's a difficult partnership for us. We definitely need to be enabling our customers, and if we can't do that in the form of providing that solution and wrapping our best practices around it, it's not a good solution for us.   Jen: Right, and that's great food for thought for a lot of businesses that are creating these agency partner programs, I'm glad to have that kind of feedback to share with folks. Can you also kind of tell us when you think about the most successful partnerships that you've had, where did they come from? For people that are just starting out and just starting to build their program, is there anything we can learn from some of your most successful endeavors?   Justin: Yeah, our most successful partnership to date is obviously Marketo, and like anything successful in business, I think it comes with a healthy dose of luck. So, there is some unrepeatability around that as well, but I would say that what is a constant between all of our good relationships is we're using that solution in house. We have a relationship with them, they're aligned with our culture and we know that we align from a methodology standpoint. So, I was Marketo's 20th customer way back in 2006. I started using the platform before I was ever a partner at a payments organization, I sold my piece of that payments company, and kind of went out on my own and didn't really know what I wanted to do.   Some folks hit me up and said, "Hey, would you help us build a sales and marketing engine?" and I said, "Yeah, that sounds great, but you're going to have to implement some technologies that I know how to run. So, let's go ahead and implement salesforce.com, let's implement Marketo, and let's really get all of the text back in place to support that repeatable engine." Throughout the years, we kind of grew with Marketo and formed a really strong partnership with them to the point where they would outsource a lot of their work to us. We were participating in deal cycles with their sales reps. We were empowering them where they needed kind of that value engineering consultative approach. A lot of their sales reps just aren't marketing experts, and our folks are. So, we were willing to slot in within that sales process, provide that marketing expertise, and, of course, as a result, we were able to win business.   So, again, it was a win-win throughout that entire life cycle, and that really is why that's our flagship partnership. We've been able to repeat that with a lot of core digital marketing platforms and sales platforms that we brought on. Engagio is probably the newest member of that stable, and, again, we use the software, we see the value in it. We have the expertise in house to really ensure success within the partner orgs that we board on that platform. So, I would say that you can't discount the value of relationships. Relationships really drive everything that we do. I love the way that marketing is currently going, in kind of this quality over quantity aspect, finally. And, at the center of most of those relationships and partnerships is a really tight understanding and alignment that you just don't get when you start taking all-comers.   Jen: Well, I'm glad you mentioned this because you wrote an article fairly recently, and it was called "How to Avoid Getting Eaten Alive by Your Partner Ecosystem." I loved it. If anyone hasn't read it, I recommend when you're done listening, go check it out. It's at leadmd.com/marketplace, we'll also link to it in the show notes. In the article you say, if you want to get to the heart of how well your potential partner performs, become a client first. And, it is really great advice, and I understand from your Marketo story, even from the Engagio perspective, I understand it. Is it a hard and fast rule that you have to use that technology in order to find value? Could you see partnering with an organization if you weren't actually using that product first? Or, is that part of that evaluation criteria that you have?   Justin: I mean, it's one that we feel really strongly about. There's exceptions to every rule, obviously. I would say that there's no better way to really get an understanding of how well that partner treats its customer base, and, therefore, my customer base, than to experience that firsthand. So, we view that as something that's really important to our business. Now, we're also a sales and marketing consultancy who can use all of these products, if a product doesn't have the fit within your stack or within your go-to-market strategy, then I certainly understand that.   It is absolutely my pet peeve when we're up against a competitive deal, and we're up against an agency that doesn't use Marketo themselves. I mean, it's as simple as navigating over to their site and looking at the scripts that are contained on the site. It's like hey, great, you're up against us and a HubSpot partner. Why is the solution that they're proposing to you not good enough for them to use? That's fundamentally part of our sales strategy. We've been using this, we know the ins and outs of it, we don't support any other marketing automation platform, so we feel strongly enough about it to make it an exclusive partner of ours as well. So, we kind of put our money where our mouth is, and, eat our own dog food, drink our own champagne, make up our own bad analogies. It's core to our business. It works for us.   Jen: Yeah, it definitely makes sense. So, back to that article. You mentioned to avoid partnerships where you stand nothing to gain.   Justin: Sounds obvious, right?.   Jen: Yeah, it's obvious. Obvious, right, but, I mean, no one goes into a partnership going, "Well, I'm not going to get anything out of this. Let's jump right in," right? So, it's possible at the start of the relationship everyone's like, "This is going to be amazing," but then as the companies maybe grow, you evolve maybe a partnership becomes one-sided. Maybe you end up doing the heavy lifting without anything in return. Do you have any advice for folks on how to handle that kind of situation? Do you break up? How do you not burn a bridge? Do you hang on hoping there might be something in the long-term that will keep this alive? What advice do you have?   Justin: Yeah, I think there's obviously a couple of facets to that. So, as I mentioned, it sounds super obvious, right, but I would say that there is kind of this aspirational partnership that exists out there. I feel like this happens a lot with big logos. Like, we know they've got a ton of customers and their customers kind of look like our customers. Thinking putting out a press release and putting this logo on our site is going to add so much credibility, but we don't take that extra step to really drill into what are we going to do together? How are we going to realize this value?   I find asking those uncomfortable questions yields the best result. So, yeah, we both operate in the same space, and we've got similar customers, but what are we going to do together, explicitly, tomorrow? Are we going to market together? Are we going to create content? Are we going to do some account planning and alignment exercises? What is success going to look like in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months? How many deals are we going to have boarded? When we board a deal, what is that process going to look like? Am I going to run the majority of the implementation? Do you want to own some as the technology provider?   So, having those really difficult conversations upfront I feel helps to avoid the very difficult conversation down the road where you've been a part of that partnership, you've had the logo on your site for two years, and there's never been anything that's precipitated from that agreement, and now you've got to go back and say, "Hey, this isn't working out." I mean, breaking up is hard to do, so I would say the more that you can really drill in, get explicit, and set up a plan right from jump street, the less you will have to go back and revisit and have those uncomfortable conversations.   So, that's first and foremost. Now, if you haven't done that or things change, conditions change, the landscape looks different, and suddenly you find yourself in that bad position, I think it's best just to use real world data there. Let's look back at the pipeline we've generated together, it's weak to nonexistent. The types of customers that we've boarded maybe are no longer customers, or maybe we weren't able to make those customers happy because of the misalignment of expectations. One of our core tenets is we track everything. If I'm boarding a new partner, I'm tracking that all within CRM. What deals are we working on together? What deals did we swing and miss? What deals did we win? And, then I can pull those reports.   The Marketo partnership has not been all roses and champagne either. Marketo's gone through some pretty big market shifts. During the course of our partnership, they've gone from 20 employees to 1,500 employees. They've gone public, and then they were taken back private. There are major continental shifts that we've seen within that organization, and the org today behaves fundamentally differently than it did when we first rolled out our partnership and I wrote a contract on the back of a napkin. So, as it's progressed, the data has really enabled me to come to those partner conversations and say, "Look, this is data from 2013. Look at the data from '15. You're my largest competitor right now," which at one point Marketo was my largest competitor.   So, you have to be able to back up those shifts with actual data, and what I actually find, certainly within larger organizations, is they're often not well-positioned to gather that data themselves, or there's been so much turnover or process shift internally that they're actually using my dataset as law to describe the success of the partnership. So track everything, and that makes those conversations a little bit easier as you get into that data, and everyone can look at the same thing and agree that, yeah, this isn't working and maybe there's a solution to that, or maybe it's time to go our separate ways. But regardless, we can't blame it on emotion at that point, we want to blame it on something that's tangible, that's real.   Jen: That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure there are a lot of organizations that you've partnered with that have benefited from the fact that you are gathering that kind of data. Unfortunately, for a lot of companies that are growing a million miles a minute it does seem sometimes like an afterthought, just this extra thing to do. But, it is extremely important, especially when you're balancing those resources and trying to figure out where to spend your time. So, do you also use that data that you might have with one partnership to help determine what success looks like in another partnership? Do you keep that internally and leverage that as a baseline?   Justin: Yeah, so we'll introduce that baseline in partnership conversations. We're potentially looking at a new partnership right now, and normally the first question out of my mouth is what does your most successful partnership look like? You can get a big feel for how that process is going to go by the data that they're able to present. If they're more on the fluffy side of, "Well, we do some activities together. They sponsor our trade show every year or our conference. We do some marketing together," I'll know that this is not as data-driven as we want it to be because I want to see sales pipeline.   I want to see the amount of revenue that you've closed together in the last 18 months. What does the joint sales cycle look like? So, absolutely, we've taken that data collection and turned it into a benchmark to which we hold other potential partnerships. The question always exists out there of there's this new company and they don't have a long track record, but we think there's a lot of potential. And, those are going to exist.   When we partnered with Engagio, they were less than 12 months old at that point, but, fortunately, they were made up by the who's who of previous Marketo employees. So, there was some faith that was included within that partnership as well, knowing that Jon Miller's not going to start an organization that's going to tank. Again, that's where you have to kind of leverage those relationships, whether it's data-driven or it's relationship-driven, insight is the key out of either one of those points.   Jen: All right. You could say that that relationship originally came out of good data as well, so that was definitely a very, very, very safe bet. Okay. So, I have one last official channel question for you, and that is, what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's really trying to breathe life back into their channel partner program? We see this a lot, we see a lot of organizations who start a program. And they probably under-resourced it, or they expected to do one thing, it does something else, and now they're kind of back at it ready to reinvest. If you could give that person, that organization, or that leader advice, what would it be?   Justin: Yeah, I really do love data, but, moreover, I love getting to the why. I don't just want to hop on a phone call or go to a meeting and ask that question. I want to see it firsthand. So, my number one piece of advice to our internal folks or anyone that's in charge of managing partner relationships is get out there and get embedded within that partner. We love to go out into bullpens and just work for a day and see what those conversations look like at that partner organization. Are they mentioning us? Are they having conversations that we could be assisting but we're not being tapped to come in and be that resource?   I love getting embedded within those environments and just seeing how their process works. Is another partner there when you show up? We've had that happen before. I had one of my competitors literally officing out of Marketo for a while, and we were like, "Wow, we really need to up our game," because they've got a level of access that we're just not taking advantage of right now. So we immediately said, "We'd love to get a cube here and park ourselves two days out of every week." And we flew someone over, and I actually eventually lit up a sales team in San Francisco to be closer to them. That insight would've never come about if I hadn't made a trip over there and just said, "I'm going to sit in your bullpen and see what these conversations sound like." Ultimately, you want to understand what does that sales pitch sound like? Where do they struggle? Where do they need help? Where can I provide some value? Simply saying, "You need to help me sell into your customer base," or, "You need to sell my services," is not going be effective.   Communicating “We have to have a solution-based message. So, when you're running up against this objection, we can help, and I heard your sales reps combat that objection a dozen times when I was out onsite.” So, I really do think that kind of that employee exchange approach is a highly valuable exercise, and, regardless of whether that has to do with partner or any other aspects of the business, I really do encourage our employees to get out there, get embedded with the partner, and understand why aren't we more successful in this partnership? I guarantee you will learn something that you would not have had you not been in that close proximity.   Jen: Absolutely. Gosh, that collaboration is unbelievable. Such good advice, and such an awesome story, too. Now, before we totally wrap this up, at the end of the podcast I always ask people some more kind of personal questions to get to know them a little bit. I make it a speed round, but I don't know how fast we end up really going, but just four questions. Are you up for it?   Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.   Jen: Okay, okay. So, first question is what is your favorite city?   Justin: My favorite city is San Francisco, California.   Jen: Me too. I'm going to ask you why. See, I do this, I make it not be speedy because I want to ask more questions.   Justin: I lived in San Francisco for two years, really for the purposes of assisting in LeadMD's growth, and, I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona, so probably not the most culturally diverse epicenter in the world. It just blew my mind to be able to walk down the street and get the best food in the world, walk into a networking group and everyone's leaning forward and engaged, and participating in these conversations. It just seemed like everyone wanted to be there, and that's kind of how I describe San Francisco.   You could throw an event in Arizona, and struggle to get five people to show up. I was part of a Bulldog meet up when I was over there, and like 30, 40 people would show up with their Bulldogs every week. And, I was like, "Jesus, I can't get this level of engagement when I'm giving away free training, much less trying to get Bulldogs to show up to a meet up." So, it just seemed very intentional, and I love intentional things.   Jen: So, side note...I'm gonna help you. We're going to lobby together for, like, a high speed train between Phoenix and San Francisco.   Justin: Yeah, absolutely.   Jen: So, that'll be a pet project in our free time, Justin.   Justin: Hyperloop.   Jen: Yeah. The next question for you was going to be are you an animal lover? You mentioned the Bulldogs, so is that a yes?   Justin: I am. Yeah, I love bull breeds, and I love English Bulldogs. I have a 10-year-old English Bulldog named Chubs. It's a girl. I wanted to give her a complex early in life. When that dog's no longer around, I will absolutely be heartbroken. So, yeah, I love animals, love dogs.   Jen: All right. Question number three. Mac or PC?   Justin: Mac, a thousand times.   Jen: Yeah. And, question number four. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip. Where would it be to?   Justin: Oh, that's a really good one. I've got this weird philosophy on life that I love really new experiences in really comfortable places. So, I would actually probably go to St. Thomas. It's my favorite spot on earth, but I'd love to try to figure out some new stuff when I was down there. The last time I was down there we found this little secluded pool that is in this outcropping of rocks on one of the many islands that surround St. Thomas. So, I think it's just one of those places where you can go and find something new every single time, and definitely one of my favorite places on earth.   Jen: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was so awesome getting a chance to talk to you about channel, about partnerships on both sides of that fence. If anyone who's listening would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you?   Justin: I'm looking forward to being the only guest on this show ever that actually loves using Twitter, so you can hit me up at @jgraymatter on Twitter, or you can check us out. Our site leadmd.com. I'd like to say we give away more best practices than most agencies have. So, all of our content's there available for free, and, of course, my contact information is there as well.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, again, thank you, and thank you all for joining us for The Allbound Podcast. We'll catch you next week with an all-new episode.   Justin: Thanks, Jen.   Man: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And, remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Listen now to find out how Ray Carroll, VP of Sales, has helped Engagio make the transformative shift from tactical to strategic sales.

Our guest is Jon Miller, CEO and Co-Founder of Engagio. Here are some of the questions Matt covers: When did you see the ABM wave coming?  At what point did you start to realize that lead-based wasn't going to cut it anymore? One of my biggest concerns with the term ABM is the “marketing” part of it, but “everything” feels to broad.  How do you think about that?  Culture is a big part of making ABM work internally.  How do you encourage people to make the right internal moves to be successful with ABM? This isn't all-or-nothing right?  How does ABM integrate with other key marketing priorities moving forward? About our guest: Jon Miller Jon is a marketing entrepreneur and thought leader. He is currently the CEO and co-founder of Engagio, an account-centric platform to orchestrate and measure Account Based Marketing and Sales Development efforts at named accounts. Previously, Jon was a co-founder at Marketo (Nasdaq:MKTO), a leader in marketing automation. Marketing technology innovator, with previous leadership roles at Epiphany and Xchange, plus board/advisory roles at Scripted, Newscred, and Optimizely.

Jon Miller, CEO and Co-Founder of Engagio, joins the Bryan Kramer Show for real talk on finding the right marketing automation balance without sacrificing that human-to-human interaction.   In This Episode How unprepared technology gave personalized marketing interaction a bad name Why successful marketing technology means something that is an operational (not capital) expense Why demand gen marketing means untargeted fishing with a net How science and hard data leads to better human interactions through relevance and resonance   Resources Jon Miller on Twitter: @jonmiller Engagio Engagio PlayMaker Marketo The 1:1 Future Wait But Why Buffer The Hard Thing About Hard Things   Visit BryanKramer.com to hear more Human Conversation.