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The title does not do Kiefer Jones justice. At the age of 32 years of age, Kiefer has already served almost ten years in the U.S. Airforce and, after leaving he continued to do the same job as a contractor. For the last part of his air Force career, he worked in Europe and continued that work din Europe during the pandemic.   In late January of 2022 Kiefer experienced a serious snowboarding accident in Austria. The result was that he had a skull that was fractured in 14 places, a traumatic brain injury, all the ribs on the right side of his body were broken, and he suffered a broken back. After being in a coma for several weeks he regained consciousness and began a long road to recovery to the amazement of his doctors. He has recovered so much that recently he ran his first 5K marathon. He attributes much of his comeback to what he calls “positive adaptability”. We spend a great deal of time discussing this concept including Kiefer giving suggestions as to why it should be important to all of us and how we can adopt our own positive adaptability mindset.   No doubt that Kiefer is an unstoppable individual by any definition. In addition to continuing to do government contract work in Virginia where he lives, he and his wife Christine, (she prefers simply Tine), own a company called Tiki designs. The company produces what the Jones' call “digital story telling”. You get to hear all about it during our episode.   Sit back, relax and be prepared to be inspired and encouraged.   About the Guest:   Kiefer Jones is a 32-year-old United States Air Force veteran originally from the small town of Decatur, Indiana.  He considers himself to be an honest, positively adaptable, and intrinsically motivated world traveler with a passion to bring ideas to life and use creativity to communicate, tell stories, resolve problems, and ignite innovation. He is currently living in Alexandria, Virginia with his wife and 2 cats after having had the unique opportunity to live and work in Europe for the last 7 years supporting the United States Air Force and the government. Almost 2 years ago, he was in a terrible snowboarding accident that put him in a coma for 7 days and left him with a broken spine, shoulder, and fractured his skull into 14 pieces which resulted in a traumatic brain injury, leaving him permanently blind in his right eye.  Despite this new challenge, he remains a passionate organizational agility leader, people and process tuner, creator, project manager, and scrum master with 10+ years of experience in the creative and information technology industries. He is also a long-time musician with a professionally produced album out on Spotify, iTunes, and the other digital music platforms. He considers himself an effective facilitator and adroit communicator with a focus on teams, value, and outcomes over outputs. Kiefer and his wife, Tine, are co-owners and digital creators for their own company, TiKi Design, where they've garnered engagement and business for viral accounts and clients resulting in over 120K new followers and generated more than 20 million new views and over 4 million new likes. They are enjoying building a new life in America.   Ways to connect with Kiefer: Here is a link to a case study I published regarding implementing scrum and kanban within the Air Force: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-air-force-overcome-scrum-jones-agility-leader-creative-pmp/   Our media business: https://tikidesignproductions.com/about  My LinkTree with affiliate links: https://linktr.ee/kieferjones My LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kieferjones/ Department of Defense news article from Stars and Stripes covering my road to recovery: https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-05-11/former-ramstein-airman-on-the-road-to-recovery-after-horrific-snowboarding-accident-in-italy-5965528.html   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi there and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet unexpected as a whole lot more fun than inclusion and diversity. And we'll probably get to a lot of that today. Anyway, our guest is Kiefer Jones Kiefer is 32 years old. So his bio says he was in the Air Force. He's faced some physical challenges along the way. I think it was all just to get attention, but he can tell us about it. I know that was no fun wasn't Kiefer. But anyway, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Kiefer Jone ** 01:58 Thank you, Michael. And thank you so much for having me happy to be a guest. And I've been looking forward to this all week, sir.   Michael Hingson ** 02:03 Well, tell me a little bit about maybe the younger key for growing up and all that and sort of how you got started or whatever.   02:10 Oh, ah, yeah, that   Michael Hingson ** 02:11 was I know that opens it that takes an hour but go to it. No, yeah. So   Kiefer Jone ** 02:16 what can I say I'm I'm a small town, Indiana kid. I grew up in a tiny little town called Decatur, Indiana. It's a one stoplight town. I am the oldest son of three boys in a single mother. So single mom household. Yeah, I grew up there and started off my life in this tiny one stop town where eventually we moved to Indianapolis. And I finished out high school. So that was quite a turn of I think environments, went to Indianapolis, finished high school. And after that, you know, decided, wow, I need a much better way to pay for college and try to figure out the next phase of life. And so that brought me to the Air Force. You know, the Air Force since then lead to a lot of different opportunities. But that's the real skinny of where I'm from, and just kind of you know that upbringing.   Michael Hingson ** 03:08 Well, there you go. What was it like? Having a single parent? I mean, I'm, I never did. I had both my parents until, well, I was 34. So I was out on my own and married by them. But what was it like having just a single mother and not a dad around? Absolutely.   Kiefer Jone ** 03:29 That's a great question. It's one that you know, I got to reflect on a little bit. And one of you know, and one of these these topics I'm sure we're gonna talk on. But that was one of the early challenges I think I faced and it was something that I'll be honest and kind of say, it's almost that old saying that if you can't miss something that you never had. And so I think that that just as a child, that's the way that it was to me, you know, people ask me that question all the time. And it's, I just, I didn't miss what I didn't have. And so, it I didn't meet I met my biological father, and much later in life when I was 27 years old, my goal, but during, you know, growing up and everything else, it was something that just wasn't because I didn't have it. Yeah. So it was, you know, I was grateful for what I did have,   Michael Hingson ** 04:15 what was it like meeting him?   Kiefer Jone ** 04:19 It was, you know, that it was curiosity was the was the biggest thing it was, you know, nurture nature, kind of those setting some of those arguments to the side and trying to figure that out. And I will say, you know, I had no expectations. And I showed up and we met each other and he's very different from myself. And you know, his family is very different. And it was it was enlightening. It was it was good, but it really, I would say that at the end of the day, it also didn't. It was nice to get some of those I guess those curiosities checked off the box. Outside of that it was just kind of a another day As we keep in contact lately, you know, I'll shoot him a message every now and again during the holidays or something. But it's not a relationship that that neither of us, I think, you know, have and continue to maintain. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 05:11 And I'm not surprised at that, you know, my one of my biggest curiosities, the question that I get asked all the time, is, well, you're blind, don't you want to see. And my response to that is, you know, life's an adventure. And having eyesight for me now would be another adventure. But I don't live just to get eyesight. I'm curious, it'd be interesting to experience it to know what it's like. But if it doesn't happen, it's not the end of the world for me. And I believe that all of us are not. Well, we're not, we're not formed, and we're not molded by our eyesight or lack of eyesight. We're molded by all sorts of different characteristics about us. And I would like to think that if I had eyesight from the beginning, I would still be somewhat like I am. And if I got eyesight, even after now, I wouldn't change my attitudes, because I think I've learned a lot about what it's like to see without actually having experienced it. So it's, it's kind of a fascinating thing, but I hear exactly what you're saying. It's, you know, it's a curiosity. And you got to satisfy that which is great as your mom's still around.   Kiefer Jone ** 06:31 She is indeed, yeah, she still lives very near the same town where I grew up that so.   Michael Hingson ** 06:38 And she keeps you honest.   Kiefer Jone ** 06:42 She does indeed. Yeah. keeps me honest. She taught me you know, to be to be good to people. And to be kind.   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 Well, you got it from two sides, because you're now married. That's absolutely correct. And your and your wife's name is?   06:54 Her name is Christine. Christine. Okay. Yeah. But she goes   Kiefer Jone ** 06:58 my team.   Michael Hingson ** 06:59 I was gonna say she goes by teen I thought, this is silent as Chris is silent. And Christine. Yeah. She's my better half. Well, and she keeps yelling at us, which is kind of cool. So you went to high school? Did you go to college?   Kiefer Jone ** 07:14 So I went to a year of college, my goal, and that's when I found out that I could not pay for it. And so that's when I said, How are we going to make this happen? You know, how are we going to address this obstacle, this challenge and the Air Force seemed like a really great opportunity, a good place to get that opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 07:33 So you joined the Air Force? And what did you go off and do in the Air Force?   Kiefer Jone ** 07:37 Yes, sir. joined the Air Force. And I came in as what they call a client systems technician. And so I started my career in the Air Force working on computers, any end user device with an IP address? That was the work that I got to work on. So   Michael Hingson ** 07:52 did you fly yourself or what?   Kiefer Jone ** 07:58 That's that one is the common question. Hey, Air Force guy, you fly, right? No. So that's   Michael Hingson ** 08:04 why I asked because I kind of got the feeling that you weren't one of the ones that will set behind the stick. No,   Kiefer Jone ** 08:10 sir. And I was the guy who helped, you know, fix his computer, fix his email, get into his server, whatever he or she needed. That's when I that's what I helped do.   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 My father worked for the government for many years. As a contractor, he ran the precision measurements equipment lab at Edwards Air Force Base, in the well, in the 1960s, in the 1970s. So he worked with all of the test pilots and stuff, he worked with Neil Armstrong, Joe Walker, who flew the x 15, and other things like that. And his job was to make sure that everybody who worked for him, made sure that all the all the equipment and everything worked the way it was supposed to, which was a fascinating job. We went out and visited Edwards a few times. It was really funny. We went out once and my dad came on. So you can't come in quite yet. We've got some top secret equipment, and you can't come into the lab. And I said, Why is that an issue for me? And he said, Well, it is anyway. So   Kiefer Jone ** 09:13 that's a good point. And that's, you know, if you don't ask the answers, always no. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:17 Well, I didn't mind but it was it was fun to be able to ask the question and he laughed at it and and then when we got inside, everybody else laughed too. And they said we could election and my dad said, well, the rules are the rules. And I'm not gonna complain. Yeah. Which is, that   Kiefer Jone ** 09:35 is a fascinating thing. It doesn't you know, often specify and that it doesn't talk about, you know, people having visual disabilities and those things that just to hear the policy you either have the clearance or you don't, right.   Michael Hingson ** 09:48 So, you, you worked on the computers, you kept everybody going and all that. You must have some really interesting stories of challenges or things that you faced when you did that or any any kind of Cute stories to tell, not to give away secrets, but just fun stories.   Kiefer Jone ** 10:05 I mean, we did some really incredible work, you know, I would say that the most rewarding part of my entire Air Force career was when, you know, I had the ability and the opportunity to deploy it. And so when I did that, I was able to go out into, you know, the, the Al dhafra, in the United Arab Emirates. And we got to be a really large part of the connective tissue of the Air Force, it was, hey, not only is this the system that you're integrating on to this network, but this is how it's, you know, helping us utilize command and control capabilities to you know, fight enemies and do operations. And that was just such a really, really neat experience. And it helped, you know, be the adhesive glue for my career and say, Wow, okay, I'm not just fixing so and so's email, this, you know, this solution that we put in over here, this was some really incredible work. That   Michael Hingson ** 10:53 made up a big difference in did help. Place the glue that held everything together. And that makes perfect sense. And that really shows that no matter what your job is, all jobs are valuable. And we should never look down on or treat anyone differently just because their job isn't what we think is as important as our job because the bottom line is it very well could be   Kiefer Jone ** 11:16 you agree more. Yeah, everybody. It's just all about the perspective lens. We're looking at it through.   Michael Hingson ** 11:22 So you were in the Air Force for what, seven years? Yes, sir.   11:26 No, I'm   Michael Hingson ** 11:28 sorry. Oh, you're you're in Europe for seven years. Europe   Kiefer Jone ** 11:31 for seven and a half years now I was in the Air Force for a bow. I think just around nine years, almost at the 10 year marker.   Michael Hingson ** 11:41 So what happened at the end of seven years in Europe. So   Kiefer Jone ** 11:44 it was a bit of a strange story there. So I went to Europe as an Air National Guardsmen. And that's what I originally was, I was the guy who showed up did my job once a month and I worked for civilian companies regularly. So I worked for Dell and Eli Lilly previously. And then so they brought me to Europe on this interesting tour that said, Hey, this is a state budget, not a federal budget. And for you National Guard, guys, because we know you have commercial experience, we want to utilize you to help the Air Force over here to make it better. And so I've had to work, probably five different jobs. By the time I was I was done in Germany and got out of the uniform. And within that three and a half years, we were in Germany, I met a really great program manager for this exciting company that I hadn't heard of called Agile defense. And at that time, he said, Hey, I would love for you to come and join us join our team. I think it'd be a great asset for our company. And that kicked me off into my role as a government contractor and it brought us for another interesting assignment and Aviano Italy. And so that's where, you know, we we spent the rest of our European adventure and stayed out there for almost seven and a half years total in Europe altogether. Coming back to America, just this June, actually.   Michael Hingson ** 13:00 Wow. Yeah. And then you so you left the Air Force, and eventually and then what happened? What did you do then?   Kiefer Jone ** 13:09 I said, Yeah, so I left the Air Force and because I got to take off the uniform and pretty much show back up the next day as a contractor it was I just took the uniform off and came back and you know, the khakis and a polo or something and started my job and Aviano Italy. And once I became a government contractor, my role was was similar but different. You know, so I worked. Instead of reporting directly to the folks in the military uniforms, the Air Force members, I got work beside them as their peer as their consultant is their advisor for their technological solutions and to help maintain those and I essentially just, I helped manage a data center at Aviano Italy and, you know, got to help them and integrate well with their operations along the way, picking up interests and becoming passionate and business agility and some of the Agile frameworks. Did   Michael Hingson ** 14:03 it feel a lot different since you were no longer reporting directly to the military? And it had to be a little bit different feeling?   Kiefer Jone ** 14:13 Oh, yeah, it was and it took me a little bit to find my my ground. You know, just to walk in through the door and say, okay, you know, and it was that amount of freedom I think was a little bit liberating to come in through the door and say, Oh, I'm, I know what I need to do. I know what my job is. I know what my requirements are. And so I just go and I do that rather than waiting for someone to tell me what to do. And especially because this happened at the same time as COVID It was especially interesting because I was the first government contractor to Aviano Italy and so I truly was there kind of on my own just saying, hey, not only my approaching this changing career, but now change in reality and life at the moment with the lock downs and different things happening. And Italy was just so heavily afflicted by the throes of the pandemic. And, you know, probably arguably more than many of the European countries because their, their age demographic was much older. So a lot of unique and interesting challenges in the year of 2019 2020, not just for me, but for everyone.   Michael Hingson ** 15:22 Yeah, it had to be unusual for me, when COVID hit. I was in New York, on the fifth of March of 2020, even when I had a speech to give that night, which I did. And then I went back to the hotel, and I was hearing about this guy who attended the synagogue and he had this disease COVID. And it was spreading and all that. And they were talking about locking down the city and I went, I don't like this. So I was scheduled to fly out the next afternoon at like 430 or five o'clock, and I went, I'm not going to do that. They're going to lock down the city, I better escape. So I changed my flight. And I went out at 730 in the morning, and I'm glad I did, I got out before they locked down the city. And oh my gosh, girl with a couple of days later, but it could have been not. And so it was good to just get out. But it was a strange feeling. I came home. And my wife, who was still alive at the time had rheumatoid arthritis. So that's an autoimmune disease situation. So it made it easier to just stay home. And travel was was cut off pretty quickly anyway, but it was easy to stay home, because I didn't want to do anything that would jeopardize her Of course. And so we both just agreed to lock down and stay at home. And we liked each other well enough that we could talk and we just spend lots of time together. And then all went well. And I learned a lot about zoom and learn how to do podcasting. And that was very helpful later on. But the bottom line is, yeah, it was certainly a tough time for all of us. And the only thing that I find very unfortunate is so many people refuse to mask when they went out. And I think that they contributed greatly to the number of people who caught COVID and perished from it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was just one of those things. But everybody makes their own choices. Yes, sir. And then you. You go you go deal with that? Well, so then when it so you came back from Italy? This year, this June? Wow. And you're in the summertime. Now, when did you and team get married? Tina   Kiefer Jone ** 17:45 and I got married, we will have been married seven years on the 21st of this month.   Michael Hingson ** 17:50 And Do either of you speak Italian? Well,   Kiefer Jone ** 17:53 we both do X good for you. Yeah, we both learned we learned a German as well. So it took three years of German was there. And it was that was really challenging. But in Italy, it was you know, we knew the drill. We knew what we needed to do. And so it was not only easier, because we spent a lot of time learning the German language. But now it was easier because Italian as a whole is much simpler language. German is very challenging as far as structure and rules. So   Michael Hingson ** 18:22 yeah, I love what Mark Twain said about German, which is basically that you start talking and you talk until the verb comes out at the other end. I took three years of German in high school, so I understood that but yeah. So you came back. And what do you do now?   Kiefer Jone ** 18:44 Yeah, so now I still work with the same great company, the same company, it's adult defense, and I actually support another Air Force agency called the Air Force Office of Scientific Research. So they're my primary customer and our primary customer at the moment. At the same time, I spend a lot of time you know, supporting my wife's business because we both co own a multimedia company called Tiki design productions. And so I'm usually pretty, pretty busy.   Michael Hingson ** 19:13 Cool. Tell me about the company. What do you do? Yeah,   Kiefer Jone ** 19:17 so my wife started this back in Germany because she went to Indiana University as a film student, and she graduated and almost right after graduation, we moved to Germany. And because she just couldn't go up to a film agency and say, Hey, can I work here because this isn't the way it works with the SOFA agreement and everything else. We decided to start our own endeavor there. And you know, you put a team plus keeper together, chop off some of the letters and that becomes Tiki. So that was actually coined by my mother. And so we created Tiki design productions. Yeah. And so with that company, you know, we provide what we like to call digital storytelling as a service. And so digital storytelling is a service is essentially, you know, everybody has a story to tell, as you know, you have me on this on this amazing podcast to tell my story. And I loved reading and hearing about yours. And digital storytelling is now because everything is so digitally involved phones, you know computers, tablets, et cetera. Everybody has these incredible stories, whether you're an individual or a business partner, or a mom and pop shop down the street. And so our job is to not only get to hear your story, but then to tell it and in a way that is emotional and captivating and, and cohesive not just another business sticker or placement, it's we truly pride ourselves on being able to tell people's stories in an authentic and unique way. And that's been really rewarding.   Michael Hingson ** 20:44 So what, what do you do to really bring a story alive? When you're, when you're doing a digital storytelling? What brings the story to people what, what draws them in to the story?   Kiefer Jone ** 21:00 Absolutely. So we spend some time at first, you know, getting to interview those folks, we get to interview the people, or the person that is, you know, that has hired us for our service. And we spend a good amount of time getting their emotions and getting what really, you know, makes them passionate about what they do. And so through that investigative, you know, mindset through inquisitiveness, through all of these things, we can then start to put ideas behind some of these videos, and some of these stories and we work collaboratively with them to say, Hey, this is what we're envisioning, right. And my wife has such a wonderful eye and wonderful gift to talk to people. And even if it's something is, you know, she did this recently for something like real estate, it sounds on paper, it's not the sexiest shiniest thing, right? It doesn't sound that incredible. And somehow she's able to ask enough questions in the right questions to grab this story, shape it into, you know, anywhere between a three minute long commercial or a seven minute long commercial or something like that. And just the way, you know, filming is done, the way that she films, the color grading all of these professional qualities that she puts behind it, she turns it into an unbelievable product. And people often you know, when they're done, they can't believe that she was able to tell their story in such a significant light. It's something that, you know, she's, they're really proud of which in turn, it makes us really proud.   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 So many people just don't understand that everyone really does have a story to tell I've had so many people say, Well, if I come on your podcast, I don't know what I talked about. Because my story is not interesting. It's not like these other people who have these interesting and amazing careers. And it is so difficult to get people to understand that everyone has a story. And the stories are there. It is a matter of helping to draw them out. But but they're there. So what do people when they why do they engage Tiki to do that? What is what is the whole idea behind digital storytelling?   Kiefer Jone ** 23:06 I you know, I think we touched on it just a little bit. But it is it's it's that you have a desire to tell your story. At the end of the day, we all want to have our story told and we you know, we'd like it to live somewhere. And previously, it was books and a lot of people putting their stories and memoirs into books. But with digital media being the new norm and consumption being done through the internet, it just seems like this is the the natural next step is what is our digital story. What's the our footprint and our legacy look like in the digital realm. And so people, people come to us for that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:41 So how do people use the stories that you create?   Kiefer Jone ** 23:46 Or they'll use them mostly everything from you know, people just wanting to tell a story about their first date of how they met their loved ones. And they'll post it on Facebook to share with people that they know and love. And you'll see others, you know, utilizing business commercials and they'll promote that either on whether it's you know, Facebook, Instagram, social media, any of those form factors, but as well as internet ads on YouTube or television, so I can go as small or as deep as anybody likes. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 24:16 What's the longest story that you've created? I   Kiefer Jone ** 24:21 think that a lot of those you know, as far as length is concerned, it it normally that one is almost always like wedding videos. So a lot of people you know they love those those stories and I think that with those you spend a whole day capturing footage and being able to tell that kind of story and it's a special one to tell it is usually people you know, that one's a lot, a lot more for the memories. I think of those folks rather than it is for everyone else to sit and watch it because even businesses you know, don't typically want a a 20 minute long commercial or want their story to be told for that long. So I'd have to say I think weddings   Michael Hingson ** 24:59 that your 20 minute story is a is a long story, especially for for business people who operate in the mindset that anything beyond a 30 or a 62nd video, people will lose attention. And I'm not exact, totally sure about that. But that's, but I understand 20 minutes is way too long to, it's all in how you tell the story as to how long you can make it and keep people's interest? Yeah.   Kiefer Jone ** 25:29 It goes back to that that y value of okay, well, who's it for? Who are we making it for? And what's the what, what do you want to get out of this? And with wedding videos, I think it's just, it's, it's become a better version of a scrapbook?   Michael Hingson ** 25:41 Very much so. And that and that makes sense. Well, so you do that. So do you do company work? Well, how much of your time do you spend doing it?   25:55 Just depends, you   Kiefer Jone ** 25:56 know, everything in art seems to be feast and famine, you get a little bit in a you know, sometimes you're you've got a lot of different clientele and different things to do. And sometimes it's not so much. So I get to ebb and flow my time pretty well. But there's, you know, at least there's always something to be done. If it's not directly helping the service or to help my wife was something we go into. Okay, well, what's our next what's our next marketing strategy looks like from Mr. Company. Okay, how do we promote ourselves? Where do we? Where do we go? And what do we who do we target to be able to continue?   Michael Hingson ** 26:28 And did you say you still do the government contract work?   Kiefer Jone ** 26:31 Yes, sir. Five days a week,   Michael Hingson ** 26:33 you you keep pretty busy. Yes, sir. And if they wanted you to come and do a digital story about the company yet? Oh, well, because   Kiefer Jone ** 26:42 this is, you know, the Air Force Office of Scientific research has its own PR department that you know, that they don't really ask me to do any of that.   Michael Hingson ** 26:52 Well, you never know. Something. That's something to think about. Well, so you and your wife clearly have a very good and close relationship. But I think that's important. We got to do that for 40 years. So I understand the whole concept. But you, you have this relationship, what are kind of maybe the three or so things that you really feel, go into making up your relationship and keeping everything so positive? Yeah,   Kiefer Jone ** 27:25 yes, sir. And Michael, I was, I was so sad to hear about your late wife. I'm very sorry.   Michael Hingson ** 27:31 Well, like I tell people, though, I need to continue to be a good kid. Because if I don't, I'm going to hear about it from her. She's up there monitoring somewhere.   Kiefer Jone ** 27:41 Yes, there. Yeah, you know, our relationship is an interesting one. Because my wife and I spent so much of our initial time, just getting to know each other, there was, you know, we we actually weren't together. And we, we both met each other very independent stages of our lives. And it was something that it was almost tangible, I could feel that independence about her. And she could feel it about myself. And so we actually, you know, we were just friends, and we just got to know each other. And so, I do think that the bulk of our relationship, and I would say any real great relationship has to be built on the foundation of honesty, and I'm talking real honesty, you know, showing who the real you is. And that requires a bit of bravery to be the real you and to talk about and say, hey, no subject is too taboo. We're going to talk about everything. And so I think that that's the, the first pillar. And the other two from that, I think are you know, they are products that rely heavily on honesty, right, so if your relationship is built, if your foundation is built on honesty, one of the things that comes as more of a result of that the second most important thing to me is laughter. Right, finding time to be silly. And, you know, with being honest, and your true self, there's a bit of silliness that comes with that naturally, you know, and so lots and lots of laughter I don't think that you can ever go wrong and you know, being a big kid and laughing all the time. And you know, the third most important thing to me is communication. And again, that is a another product of honesty, discussing everything and often you know, it's I find it hard to hear when people you know, have to schedule time for each other to sit down and just have a conversation and I can you know, I can try to understand because I know that people get busy but you know, we just communication is such a giant pillar in our relationship that I couldn't imagine having to schedule time to sit down with my wife to get a few words and   Michael Hingson ** 29:50 yeah, I appreciate all three of those because they're they're very much a part of what made our marriage I think such a great One communication is so important. And you have to do it all the time. And we liked talking to each other about anything. And as you pointed out honesty and being open is absolutely crucial about whatever. And it's important to be able to have that deep of a relationship, that you can talk about anything and not judge. And I think that's the other part of it. You, you communicate, but you don't judge the other person just because they are honest enough to tell you something that, you know, you didn't even think about.   30:37 Exactly, yes, sir.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 We had a podcast interview quite a while ago with a gentleman who lives back near where you live. And when he and his wife turned 40, he asked her, he said, So what do you want to do with the rest of your life? And she said, I want to adopt a daughter from China, which totally floored him. And he said, why? And she told him, Well, they eventually did it, it became an adventure for them. And I think the daughter Mia is probably about 2425 years old. And a few years ago, she wanted to actually try to find her birth parents, which is hard in China, but they did. And he's written a book about it, which is really cool.   31:24 What's the name of the book?   Michael Hingson ** 31:26 I wish I could remember, but it is. If you still have the email, I said, I'll have to go find the episode. But it's, if you still have the email that I sent you as one of the episodes that that I included.   Kiefer Jone ** 31:40 Okay, I do. Excellent. Yeah, I'll have to make sure to go and watch that one and get the book sounds, you know, some similarities there. Just meeting parents and that kind of challenge. How fascinating.   Michael Hingson ** 31:52 Yeah, he's, it's a fascinating story. But he really worked hard at going through it all. And they, they agreed, and they went and they adopted a daughter. And then they adopted a second daughter. And I wish I could remember the name of the book right off, but it's been a long time. It's like episode 38 or something. And we're up at episode 277. So it's a while ago, but it's a fascinating book. I haven't read the book. It wasn't available in a form I could read, but he told me all about it. So it was really fascinating to hear the story. Well, that happens. So you have gone through some physical challenges in your existence, haven't you?   Kiefer Jone ** 32:40 Yes, sir. It's yeah, it was, you know, towards the tail end of us leaving leaving Europe. And yeah, I had a separate a really serious Polly traumatic incident in Innsbruck, Austria. Ah,   Michael Hingson ** 32:58 and what happened, if you want to talk about it? Yeah,   Kiefer Jone ** 33:01 of course, I was. I was snowboarding we were in school. It was a ski resort that my wife and I loved and we cherish and we've been to it so many times. And it was a wonderful day, like so many of our days spent out there and the snow was coming down. And we were just having a great time. And essentially, on this run, that there's a, there's a little fork in the road, and either you stay in the Austrian side, or the other side allows you to go over to Switzerland, which is really neat. You know, isn't that something being able to snowboard in two different places. And so, I'm just really going and we're moving because it's feeling good. And we're probably, you know, probably 45 miles an hour, I think my my friend who was with us had his GoPro and he caught the whole thing on video for both good and bad. But as we're coming down this and I'm getting to that fork in the road, somebody yells at me, and I realized that I might be missing my turn. So I turn around to look because I look ahead and I see this signs there, then the steel signage jetting out, I see. Okay, it's probably 15 feet ahead and I turn around the look. And then as soon as I turn my my head back forward, that's the basically the steel signs that were pointing out of the postage, it hit me right underneath my right eye, and it immediately caved my skaaland and shattered it into about 14 pieces, some of those pieces getting lodged into the the front part of my brain. And so you know, immediately it knocked me unconscious and my then lifeless body, I guess. And unflinching body goes into the poll, which was not covered. And so all of my ribs on my right side were broken and a number of them went through my lungs. My rotator cuff and my right shoulder was shattered and I broke, you know, or I fractured my spine as well. And so you know, I was I was at the highest Glasgow Coma. index level that you can be. And, again, due to my wife and her quick ability to act, she came down and she saw me and knew that something wasn't right. And just, you know, this just shows just her brain and how incredible it is she was able to not only call the right number, which isn't 911, you know, it's 112 Over there. Yeah, call the number. And she got somebody on the line. And she was able to, you know, despite language challenges and barriers there, she was able to get some folks over to pick me up via helicopter.   Michael Hingson ** 35:36 And so when you do it, you do it right, don't you?   Kiefer Jone ** 35:38 Oh, yeah, I guess so.   35:42 Anyway, go ahead. Oh, no. So the helicopter,   Kiefer Jone ** 35:44 it came and picked me up and they had to resuscitate me in the back of this helicopter, you know, a few. Who knows how long the doctors weren't sure. They, you know, but either a minute, the other way, and I wouldn't be having this conversation. You know, I heard this so many times during my recovery from my doctors. And so that sent me into a coma. And I was in a coma for seven days in Innsbruck, Austria and their ICU unit for their hospital over there. And when I finally did wake up, I was blind in my right eye, and not because of the damage to my eye, my eyes actually completely healthy. You wouldn't you know, if you could see me, Michael, you wouldn't believe it, but the eye is completely healthy. And it's just this specific damage done to my brain. This left me now permanently blind.   Michael Hingson ** 36:38 In your right eye?   36:39 Yes, sir.   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 Do you see still well, from your left eye?   Kiefer Jone ** 36:43 Yeah, left. I mean, I didn't see super well, before I added contacts and glasses my whole life. So but you   Michael Hingson ** 36:50 can you drive? I can drive you okay.   Kiefer Jone ** 36:53 You know, that was one of the, you know, part of the recovery process. The   Michael Hingson ** 36:57 brain is such an adaptable thing, and made great that you can do that. Well, so what, what got you through all of that?   Kiefer Jone ** 37:09 This was this is one of those one of those things, you know, we talked about positive adaptability a little bit. And, you know, I think when I think about positive adaptability, I think about it in three different ways is how I've been able to sum it up, you know, the, I think it's centered around three parts and positive adaptability. Part one is gratitude, you know, gratitude, how can I reflect? What can I be thankful for. And as I was in that hospital, and I woke up, obviously, the first thing I'm thankful for is Oh, my God, I'm alive. You know, the next section of gratitude was, okay, I think I have, you know, I know who I am. I have my memories, even though these doctors are saying you might not have this, you might not have that they're unsure. But that's what that's all that's going through my through my brain at the time is, how can I what am I, you know, I'm grateful about all of these different things. And then the next part of positive adaptability is really intention. So I have gratitude for for everything that I still have all of this stuff, but now what's, what's my intention? And I knew that my intention in that bed before I could even really before I had walked, before I had really moved at all before I, you know, knew whether or not I could, it was that I was gonna get better. That was my intention, whatever that looks like, even if it was accepting this new normal. Right. And so it was, you know, this is, this was a big intention. That's a big blanket intention. I guess, you know, for my other Agile methodology, industry, people, we could call that the epic to the user stories, my intention was to get better. And then after that, it was it was action. So you know, first reflecting and saying, Hey, I'm grateful. Second was, what do what do I want to do? And then third was action, first step, and all that I could do really Michael was to listen to the doctors, listen to people listen to my wife, who was visiting. And then it was basic things after that was okay. How do I eat? How do I get? How do I get nutrients back into my body? How do I if I can't walk, can I practice sitting up in the hospital bed? And so I would, you know, kind of sit up and do what I could and move different parts of my body. And then it was, Okay, the next iterative thing, how do I walk at first, I couldn't even walk a few steps to the bathroom. And then it was just iterative progress of, okay, you made it to this title last time key for it. Can you make it a little bit further? Can you make it a little bit further? And then it was memory tests, you know, all the way up to just this summer? I did my first 5k that I've done, you know, since my accident, and so I did a 5k this summer. How long ago was the accident? The accident was in February, I'm sorry, January of 20 2214.   Michael Hingson ** 40:04 Wow. Okay, so you'll be coming up on two years soon. Yes, sir. But you did the 5k.   40:13 Yeah. Yeah. Well, how   Michael Hingson ** 40:15 did you learn about this concept of positive adaptability?   Kiefer Jone ** 40:21 It's, it's something that I had, you know, I'd never heard it until I think I, I started doing a lot of introspection introspection during my recovery, there was, there was a three month part of my recovery where I didn't really get up, and I didn't really do anything, my doctor said that, hey, you just need to be still be there, do some cognitive, you know, there are great applications out there, I used a couple of them to train my brain and help develop my my new synapses. Because micros, I'm sure, you know, when your brain gets damaged, your brain never heals, it just creates new roads to travel down, right. And so, you know, utilizing that I spent a lot of time in my own mind, just thinking. And positive adaptability was something that, you know, I don't know if I coined it, but it's certainly going to be the name of the book that I hope to put out in 2025, because nobody's taken the title yet. So it's something that I just, I, I found that that was the way that I approached my life. And it was even that way before my accident, it was this is, you know, this is how I've gotten from here to here it almost every challenge and major obstacle of my life. It's not, you know, it's not just resiliency or optimism. It's it's positive adaptability. And when I said it, I wrote it down in my, in my phone, and I started writing ideas for books, and I started, you know, more fleshing out this concept that I hadn't really been introduced to, but that I think, just makes a lot of sense in the way a lot of people navigate their challenges and obstacles and you yourself, I believe, are a, a wonderfully shining candidate of positive adaptability. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 I think that all too often we, we focus on so many negative things, we focus on why we can't do stuff, as opposed to how we make it happen. And there's no reason that we can't do whatever we feel we can do. And I mean that and and again, not to be in a punish a punny way, but in a positive way, we really can be positive, we really can learn to adapt and do so many things that we don't think we can. And, and unfortunately, I think all too often we get taught that we can't do things, we can't really be as malleable and as adaptable as we really can be. Right? And it gets to be a real a real challenge. So you, you just suddenly created this concept. If I were you, I'd go copyright it somewhere. And that way, you've got it for the book. Yeah, yeah, that's   Kiefer Jone ** 43:07 good feedback. And, you know, it's something that I have to look into. But yeah, positive adaptability is truly, you know, ever since I started, it's something that I, I bring up often, and I've tried to, you know, the folks that I get to interact with, and the way I get to work with people try to implement these things in every which way, not only in personal life, but professionally, too.   Michael Hingson ** 43:28 So just sort of out of curiosity, what would you say is the difference between positive adaptability and resilience? Because resilience is, of course, something that many of us experience were resilient, because we, we overcome adversity and so on. But what's the difference between positive adaptability and resilience? Absolutely.   Kiefer Jone ** 43:48 And that was something you know, I had sat and dwell on for a while. And you know, we, when we think about resilience, we think about typically elasticity, we think about the ability of someone to snap or bounce back from something, maybe it's from adversity, maybe it's just a large challenge, about resiliency, in my opinion, it doesn't really imply that, you know, a positive choice was really made, or maybe a bad pattern. And so, you know, the simplest example I can think of is, you know, somebody walks through the door, and maybe they get punched in the face, right? And they get sick, I'm going to be resilient about this. I'm going to do the same thing tomorrow and do it again and again, and you can take a lot of punches, right, but doesn't necessarily mean we solved a problem. But we can take that and expand that. As far as you know, someone might say, Well, my country has showed true resilience regarding this war. And maybe they had but maybe no one had ever questioned if if was that war being fought for the right reasons. You know, were we incredibly resilient, but did we was it for the right purpose? And so, for me resiliency defined And someone's ability or you know, an entity's ability to bounce back. But positive adaptability can provide us with really positive posturing for how we land advantageous lead.   Michael Hingson ** 45:14 Okay, go into that a little bit more, if you would.   Kiefer Jone ** 45:18 Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think that just talking about essentially positive adaptability is the heading. It is, you know, it's not only saying, Hey, I'm choosing to look at this positively and be resilient about it. But this is a heading for where I need to go. This is the direction for where I want to take this. And I think that that stems back into kind of what what positive adaptability means to me. And it's just so much more than just optimism. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 45:50 Well, it clearly is, because it's not enough to be optimistic, but it's taking that and deciding on a direction deciding on a choice. And then following through with that, until either you find that you made a great choice. Or you find that, well, maybe that wasn't such a good choice. And what we need to do is alter course a little bit, which gets back to the adaptability part of it.   Kiefer Jone ** 46:22 Exactly. And that's, and that's, you know, when I when I think about it, and how I would describe it to others. And you know, just now that we're talking about that, and kind of centered around optimism, as you know, so if, for example, we take these three pillars of positive adaptability, gratitude, intention, and action, and we think about it from the point of optimism, gratitude, and looking at the old optimistic phrase of the glass is half full. Right. So when I think about gratitude, first we say, well, I'm grateful for water. Okay, excellent. We are grateful for water. But then when we think about intention, okay, well, why are we grateful for this water? What is our intention? Is it to have more water? So then my question might be, how do we find a stream? Is the question is my intention to make it look like we have more water than maybe my intention, then is to find a smaller cup, right? Or is my intention to share the water? So then how can I get multiple cups so that we're all sharing this, and then action is carrying out that action? So it's, it's optimism, it's resilience plus?   Michael Hingson ** 47:36 Makes perfect sense. And the the whole idea, again, is to really learn more about yourself. And I talk a lot about introspection, spending time at the end of the day, what worked, what didn't work. And even when and something worked, can I make it better, but really looking at yourself in a in a positive light, and recognizing that there really isn't such a thing as failure? It's another opportunity. And the failure is, well, this didn't work the way I expected it to work. That's not mean it was a failure. That doesn't mean I should be defeated. It means All right, what's next sports fans? And how do we move forward from here? Hmm, sir. And I think that that's what what most people really miss in the whole process is taking the time to analyze and look at yourself and you, you're your best teacher, nobody else can teach you like you can teach you. And so we should look at what goes on around us and what we do. And look at it in the light of how can I make it better?   Kiefer Jone ** 48:49 Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, it comes down to just folks in their, their practical strategies and sort of exercises that I guess they can develop to sustain that kind of, of, you know, mindset.   49:04 Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 So have you read any books or encountered other kinds of things that have really helped you move forward on this whole concept of positive adaptability? Ah,   Kiefer Jone ** 49:18 yeah, you know, that the first one that comes to mind, of course, is my wife, my better half, right? So just being so instrumental in our transparent communication, and a partner and a resource and a grounding point for everything that I do. Sometimes I might just come out and blurt out the most ridiculous idea she's ever heard. But she'll say, well keep her that was, you know, that was here, but you know, how do we make it here? Or she might tell and keep it that's crazy. So, you know, she is the wives can do that. And that's fair. They keep us grounded. And so yeah, I couldn't have I couldn't have imagined a better partnership and I love having her in my life to be that person. And I To say that, you know, the, on top of someone to share experiences with and to mentor and do these things I have had a significant, you know, nudge in my life from an executive at our company, agile defense, and his name is Lonnie Nichols. And he's, you know, despite all of his busyness as an executive to our company, and being a great family, man, he's been, you know, a great guide, he's nudged me to be better. He's he actually challenged me to get on this with you today, Michael, because at first I said, the same thing I think a lot of your folks do is, I don't have a story to tell. He said, Keep Ramona, I think it's even more important that you do this, right. And so he, he challenged me to do this. And he's been, you know, challenging me to just be better in every way that I can. And he also eats, breathes and sleeps, you know, this mantra of listen first. And I love that, and I've applied that in my life. And he's, you know, he's turned me on to a number of books that I've read. And, you know, outside of that some resources that I've I've implemented that, you know, helped me more with positive adaptability, I have this great gift, my wife bought me called The Five Minute Journal. And you know, every single page, it essentially has an incredible quote at the top, it's small, it's short, it asks you to list three things you're grateful for. And three things that would make today great, a daily affirmation, you know, then you get, at the end of the day, at night, when you do your retrospective, you look through and you list three highlights of your day. And then what you learned. And so that's been an incredibly wonderful, you know, thing to have in my life and implement. And it always allows me, as you said, Michael, to go back and reflect and see if I could have made something a little bit better. And I love that.   Michael Hingson ** 51:43 And even if you can't, you may tomorrow. Exactly,   Kiefer Jone ** 51:47 yeah, you write about it the next day. But you know, outside of that I got, you know, Ted lasso. For it being a fictional television show, I couldn't imagine a more positively adaptable character out there that I've I still, every time I watch the show, it's only three seasons long, I continue to learn something new that I can apply to my life to others, the lives of others. And that's been a really great show. And then there's a book out there called Positive Intelligence. That's a book that helps us identify, you know, our sabotage our saboteur thoughts, and our saboteur emotions, and how to live our lives and mitigate some of those things. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 one thing that I think is coming out of this is I would love to have your friend from national defense to come on the podcast as well, how do we get him on?   Kiefer Jone ** 52:35 Oh, man, I think he, I think he'd be happy to do it. And he's got, you know, he's got an incredible story as well. And he shared, he shared some of that with me. So I'll definitely, you know, reach out to him and see if I can, you know, hey, you challenge me and challenge you, and   Michael Hingson ** 52:50 give you my email address. And let's touch base, I would love to we're always looking for more guests on unstoppable mindset. And, you know, as I said, everyone has a story to tell them, It's neat when people really understand that they have a story to tell and want to tell the story. And, you know, I'm thinking, and I know, I'm doing this during the podcast, but you might think about doing a digital story about positive adaptability, and copyright it and that also starts to get the message out, maybe you do a few of those, and that becomes part of the book. Yeah, yeah,   Kiefer Jone ** 53:23 exactly. And that's, you know, that's this is really, Michael, this is kind of phase one for for future implementations and things like that. And it's, it's establishing that as your personal brand, you know, I'm sure that you'd be a great resource and have a lot of advice for, hey, this is this is how you you do this is how you bring your message forward, because you've got such a great one that you're sharing with the world, love   Michael Hingson ** 53:45 to help in any way that we can. So can you suggest some exercises and some different things that people can do to kind of help create for themselves this whole idea of a positive adaptability mindset? Ah,   Kiefer Jone ** 54:01 yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, you know, we touched on some of this a little bit earlier. And I think that some of the stuff that you said is, it's amazing how, you know, somebody who's been through it, and who has it, you get it already. And you've already said some of the things but there are four things that I think about, you know, and it's, the first one is practicing honesty. And as we talked about earlier, and you'd said, Michael, that the hardest part of honesty is with ourselves. It's that introspection, you know, and it's, I know that that can be challenging for a lot of people. And the first thing I've had folks throw at me is how can I be honest, you know, with about this or about this, and it's, if you need some help, there are resources out there to get it but we do we have to practice honesty in the first time that we do. It's got to be with ourselves. And as you said, you know, ourselves are our best teacher. So number one, practice honesty. Number two, listen, to understand, not respond, listening to understand and that's so challenging and such a big deal in every aspect of life. The third I would say is, as we've talked about a little bit is, reflect and be grateful, you know that you know what best, you know, there's an expression out there, this, you know, you know what the best day of the year is? The best day of the year is today. Yeah, and that's true every single day, you know, we can either make today our masterpiece or our calamity, and everything is a result of the choices that we get to make. So reflecting and be grateful is the third. And finally, the fourth one, that's, you know, I think we miss a lot is that we need to think more about we, and less about me. Yeah, and I like to call this the main character syndrome, society and, and different things, you know, we think that we're the only the only person in the story a lot of folks and you know, even or if it's just, you know, me and my wife, it's my family. It's my, my, my versus our, our, our we, we we and when I think about some great stories out there any great story, right? The first one that comes to my mind is I love the fiction so much, but Harry Potter right? name implies that it's a main character, right? Harry Potter is the main character. But when we think about that, you know, without her without, or I'm sorry, in Harry Potter, without Dumbledore without the you know, friendship of Ron and Hermione Heck, even without his opposition of Voldemort, right? There are so many characters in the story. And that turns out when we really think about it, Harry Potter was not a main character at all. He's, you know, he's a character among so many. And we were just lucky enough to learn about just one of them. Right? Imagine hearing all of the stories about the rest of those people in those books. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 56:43 um, all of the books are Harry Potter. And, and I think that's really important because we are telling it from his standpoint. So he's, he's, in a sense, a main character from the standpoint of we're we're hearing his story, but it really is about everyone. It's an incredible world. Now, there's a new series, by the way, the James Potter series, and there are at least five books in that series. So it's about Harry son, at Hogwarts. And there's some really great twists in those. So if you haven't read those, those are, those are another series to look at.   57:21 Oh, I had no idea. Well, I don't want   Michael Hingson ** 57:24 to give anything away. Except, you know, let's just say McGonigal doesn't want to and isn't going to be the school mistress at Hogwarts forever. But you'll never guess who becomes the new schoolmaster at the end of the first book, or the beginning of the second book, and I'm not going to give it away. I will never guess it. It is nobody that you can think of I will tell you that right now. All   Kiefer Jone ** 57:55 right, I want to put I want to think about and I'll send you an email, you know, for our guests.   58:01 Thanks, thank you. But   Michael Hingson ** 58:04 it's a good series. But but the point really is, is that this world is composed of all of us. And we're all part of the same world under the same God. And we've got to start recognizing that it isn't just us ourselves. I always believe in doing things as a team, when I wrote thunder dog, my story of the World Trade Center and working with a guide dog, I had the great honor to work with someone else. And it was a team effort. We both worked, we both wrote, We collaborated, we both edited. And then when I did running with Roselle, which was really for kids, although more adults by it than children, because it's not a picture book. But again, we I collaborated and we're just getting ready to do a new book that the book has written, it's now in the hands of the publisher. And the publisher has actually already put out a pre order link to I guess, gauge interest. But that book is entitled live like a guide dog, stories of a blind man, his dog and his dogs about adversity. Moving forward in faith, and well, I keep blanking out on the whole sub, the whole sub title of the book, but it's adversity, overcoming challenges and moving forward in the faith. And it's it's fun. And it's about learning to control fear, learning that in reality, we all can control the things that happened to us, at least how we react to it. We don't need to be blinded by fear. And so the book is really about that because I talked for 22 years as a speaker about not being afraid going out to the World Trade Center on September 11. But when I Haven't done is taught other people that you can do the same thing. And so it's a lot of fun to do.   1:00:05 Oh, powerful, but   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:09 it is about us not Lee. And the writing is better because it's us. And everything we do is better because it's us. There's no I in team and there's a reason for that. Sorry,   Kiefer Jone ** 1:00:22 I couldn't agree more. Yeah, we, you know, it takes a village, we none of us get anywhere we are by ourselves.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:28 Right? So for you, besides writing the book, what's next in the world to do?   Kiefer Jone ** 1:00:35 Next in the world, and I think this is one of those catalysts for me, Mike? Well, this is one of those things that challenged me to say, hey, and I had to start thinking about it, you know, what do I have the ability? What do I have the ability to do right now? Where can I make an impact? And right now the answer, you know, for me, it's the Internet work, and home, right? Home is the easy one. So I listen, I reflect you know, I, if you're kind to everyone, no harm is goin

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Discover how Jenn Drummond—a mother of seven and Guinness World Record-holder—turned a life-altering car crash into a catalyst for monumental change. Conquer towering summits and face rugged terrains with resilience in this inspiring episode with Lesley Logan. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:How Jenn transitioned from full-time motherhood to record-breaking mountaineering.What it takes to tackle The Seven Second Summits and set a world record.Tips on balancing rigorous training with the demands of family life.The importance of setting future goals while celebrating current successes.Understand the power of gratitude in daily life's pauses.Episode References/Links:Follow Jenn on IGFollow Jenn on FBJenn Drummond Official WebsiteTraining for the Uphill Athlete by Steve HouseThe Seven Second SummitsGuest Bio:Jenn Drummond is a Mom of 7, successful business owner and Guinness World Record holder. As the first woman to climb the second highest summits on each of the 7 continents, she now spends her time inspiring others to create a thriving business and lasting legacy of their own. She shares her story and strategies for success through her book, Quit Proof: 7 Strategies for Life Goals & Business Success, and her Seek Your Summit podcast, programs, and signature talks. Learn more about how she elevates devoted and determined entrepreneurs to go beyond a life of success to a life of significance  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. Get your free Athletic Greens 1 year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 and 5 free travel packsGet your discount for some Toe Sox using the code: LESLEY Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipFREE Ditching Busy Webinar Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesFollow Us on Social Media:InstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Jenn Drummond 0:00  And I really wrote it to myself before I started on the quest because I named it Breakproof. And the reason why I named it Breakproof is because when you think of the term break, you can take a break and evaluate what's going on. Or you can be doing something and not really paying attention to things that aren't working and then all of a sudden, something breaks. Lesley Logan 0:21  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.  Lesley Logan 1:02  All right, Be It Babe. Welcome to the podcast. I am thrilled for you to listen to who is up next. Jen Drummond is our guest and I'm just so frickin glad I got to interview this woman, I am on a high and not just because let's pun intended, she, you're gonna hear why, because she did some pretty badass stuff with some really high mountains. And if you're like, I don't really care about the outdoors, you stop, you're gonna keep listening because there are so many amazing lessons along the way. And if you are someone who is busy, you've got lots of demands on your life, you must listen to this episode because our guest today (inaudible) is going to help you see what is possible. I can't think of a better person to tell a mom or a person who just has a lot on their plate to show them like what is possible in your life. And I'm just really friggin thrilled for you to listen to this amazing human being. So Jen Drummond is our guest today. Want you to listen to all of it. And then her Be It pod. Her bold, executable, intrinsic targets step is awesome. You're gonna love it. It made me smile. And it's going to, this is really going to change your life. I can't wait for you to hear it. Have an amazing time listening. Lesley Logan 2:10  All right, Be It babe. I'm really excited. I'm really excited about this interview today because this woman is well you're gonna hear in a second like she's a fucking badass. Like, I'm actually staring at incredible, like just so much achievement in this world. And she's a mom, you're in here how many children she's a mom to in just a moment. But Jenn Drummond, you are on the Be It Pod. Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell everyone who you are? And what you're rockin at?Jenn Drummond 2:32  Hmm. I'm Jenn Drummond. And I'm rocking at life right now. Whoo. Thank you for having me. Lesley Logan 2:39  Yes. Okay. So in your life? What are you like, what's your thing that you're so excited about right now? How are you? How do you show up in this world? How to like, what's the thing that you're most working on? Because I know that you are a climber and all these things, but like, How did that even happen?Jenn Drummond 2:55  Yeah, so let's bring us back. Right. So I had a car accident, which was a line in the sand. Right? So pre-car accident, post-car accident, pre-car accident, I graduated from college, took a job in financial services, built my own successful firm, hired myself out of a job to become a full-time mom. And I was a stay-at-home mom to seven children. And it was definitely fulfilling in the beginning when they needed me. But then also then everybody goes to school and I was kind of lost in this limbo land, and sold myself on the idea that once they got to college, I can get back to me. But right now I'm in a season of motherhood. Jenn Drummond 3:38  And then the car accident happened. So I got into a horrific car crash that should have taken my life but didn't. No one knows how I survived. Like the police rebuilt the accident, we couldn't build a scenario where I lived, let alone walk away. And in that experience, I realized, I don't get to choose when I die. But I sure get to choose how I live. And the choices that I was making at that time of putting my life on hold and waiting until my kids were in college was not good. Like not okay, like I was no longer okay with it. I was like, wait a minute. I don't care what people think anymore. Like, I'm glad you have an opinion. I'm more afraid of not being able to see, experience, explore taste like do all the things this life has to offer. Then, like whatever society thinks I should be doing. And so the car accident I say woke me up to living. And I had a conversation with my kids. And I said, Hey, Les, guess what? Mom's making some changes. I'm going to do you but I'm also going to do more me. And we're gonna have a little bumpy road as we figure out this rhythm, but I'm here for it. And let's have conversations and let's do this. So 2019 became a year of the bucket list. I would say, I'm like (inaudible).Lesley Logan 5:01  I'm so glad it was 2019 I'm so glad you weren't gonna do a 2020 a bucket list.Jenn Drummond 5:05  Yeah. So I was pre-COVID. I was prepared for COVID before I knew COVID was coming. And so I was making this bucket list of like, if I died tomorrow, what do I want to do? What do I want my legacy to say? What do I want to be known for? Being a stay at home mom? Not it. I'll be honest. I mean, I love people that thrive at that. I'm not thriving in that environment. That's just not how I'm wired. Yeah, so I had this huge list. And I'm 2020, I was turning 40. So I'm like, You know what honest list. I'm going to take mountain. And I'm going to climb a mountain for my 40th birthday to launch that decade and have it be significant and all these happy things. And so I'm getting ready to train. I call some friends that are into mountaineering. And I said, if you could climb one mountain in the whole world, what would it be? In the general consensus was a mountain named Ama Dablam. Like, okay, like, what's that? Like? Well, it's a mountain in the Himalayas. Well, Himalayas, were on my list. So that was when it meant the mother's necklace. I'm a mom to seven children that kind of felt appropriate. Yeah. And then my friends like, you know, it's the Paramount Pictures logo. I'm like, oh, (inaudible) like, yeah, let's do this mountain. So, I'm training and then COVID hits. And yes, you remember, none of us are traveling anywhere. And all of us that had children in school, our now homeschool teachers, because school shut down. Lesley Logan 6:33  And also to like seven. So what, can we just go like, what are the ages of these? Like, did you have triplets and an extra or like, what's going? How did you get to seven?Jenn Drummond 6:42  I know. And crazy story. Like I had, like, I couldn't have kids naturally, right? Like I was trying to get pregnant. It wasn't working. Like the one thing we're born to do. And of course, my body won't participate, figure that out. And I went to a fertility clinic, nothing works for a while. And then finally, one day, they came up with this chemical cocktail that turned me into a hen. And we got 28 eggs in one cycle. Anybody who's been through the fertility treatment stuff, like I hear you, I see you. I am so sorry. It is a horrible journey. It's hard. I got 20 eggs, the 20 eggs became 14 embryos. I viewed embryos as life. And so those 14 embryos became seven children. I'm here to survive and tell you about it.Jenn Drummond 7:29  One at a time. So you've one at a time? Jenn Drummond 7:31  I did two at a time and only one ever stuck. Except for, and if anybody's been on this journey, you know how they rank embryos. And so they use your best ones first, and then your worst ones are at the end, and they thought out of 14 embryos, I might get two or three kids based on the quality.Lesley Logan 7:48  You get one every time. Jenn Drummond 8:08  Yeah, I got one at a time. And then at the end, they plant the last two eggs. I get twins. So like figure that out. Right? So I have five boys and then twin daughters. Um, I'm grateful. It's amazing. I would have never planned it. But I couldn't imagine life without it. Lesley Logan 8:07  Yeah. Okay, thank you for sharing because my brain is like to be like, how, like, how far apart are these kids like do we, are, I know you have 14.Jenn Drummond 8:15  They are so close together. So for example, my oldest right now is 16. And my youngest are 10. So yeah, I was like afraid that somebody's gonna break into the embryo clinic and steal them or do your thing. So we're using them and we're using them now. Lesley Logan 8:31  You were like having Irish twins every year for six years.Jenn Drummond 8:35  Yeah, totally, 100%. My son went to school, and he's like, mom at school they tell us babies are blessings. I'm like, they are honey. He was like, are we gonna get a blessing every year? I think we're running out. I think we used our quota. We'll see.Lesley Logan 8:51  Oh my God, you're amazing. Okay, so so your year of like I'm a mountaineer. This thing. All of a sudden got like, probably like it probably felt like such a huge obstacle because now you are a homeschool teacher to sixth grades like different six different grades of kids. Jenn Drummond 9:06  Oh, yeah, totally. So I'm a homeschool teacher. And I'm like, what just happened? And one day my son is struggling with his math homework. I've given him the proverbial pep talk. Like we do hard things. You've got this like, don't you worry. And he looks at me in the face. And he goes if we do hard things, why you're climbing a mountain called I'm a dumb blonde instead of a real mountain like Mount Everest. And I said, honey, it's Ama Dablam, not I'm a dumb blonde. Okay. Finish your homework. We'll look at Everest. So he did. We did. He went to bed. I was still looking at Everest and I thought you know what? If Everest is like the hardest, biggest, most magnificent thing someone can climb. I'm gonna climb it. And I'm going to show him that whatever Everest is, we're capable of doing. So, by the end of the week, I had a coach hired to climb Ama and Everest. And this coach, right? Like go figure, this is my life, this coach sends me a book about becoming an uphill athlete because I was an athlete, but it's different when you're going vertical than just, you know, whatever. Jenn Drummond 10:16  And so I get this book and I'm reading it. And in the front of it, there's a lady who got a Guinness World Record for doing something in the Alps. And I remember thinking, Man, I could have done that, like, I can suffer. And I got a Guinness World Record. My kids would think I'm the coolest mom in the whole world because that's how they learned how to read. And right now homeschooling, I'm not cool. Like there's zero cool about this mom right here. I have this conversation with my coach. My coach is, like well think of something like Okay, fine. But listen, I'm not growing pumpkins or speed-eating hotdogs or doing like any of those weird things that people do to get into, like, the Guinness World Records. He was like, don't worry, don't worry, I'll come up with something. A couple of weeks later, he calls me and he's like, Jenn, Jenn, I've got the perfect record for you. Like totally forgetting our conversations. I'm like, what? Like, yeah, I think you should be the first female to climb the seven second summits. Like what are the seven second summits? Like what are you talking about? No, no other female has done this yet? No. So he goes, Listen, it's the second highest point on each continent. It's only been done by one male. It's harder than the first seven. And you would be the first female to do it. And you go seven continents, seven mountains, seven children. It sounds like a jackpot. Lesley Logan 11:43  Oh, I did one. I live in Park City. I skied a few mountains like, come on, but no, I mean, I hadn't slept in a tent. I hadn't done like any of these things that maybe you should do when you say yes to mountaineering.Lesley Logan 11:58  Yes, it's, it's not even like, it's not even like a tent that like I've camped in like, these are like little tiny, like, you just unravel it for one moment. And then you put it back up, but you go like, this is not, you know, some glamping.Jenn Drummond 12:11  Put details. So I looked it up, I talked to my kids. And it was you know, like, life's timing, like life is so much a timing. And so like, this is perfect. No one's done it. But so if I fail, who cares? Doesn't (inaudible) before, anyway. So whatever. And I wanted to travel, what a great way to go to see all the different continents. And I wanted to empower women, because I put myself on hold. And I wanted to do something where other women would watch and they'd be like, Wait, that thing that little girl right there climbed mountains, and she has how many kids like what I want to know more. I wanted to trigger that curiosity. Because when we're curious, we have power.Lesley Logan 12:56  Okay, you said a couple things in there. That one is amazing. Everyone hit rewind. And then also, I loved when you said when you talk about like, if I can't do it, who cares? Like if it doesn't work out. Like that is actually really interesting, because we put so much pressure on ourselves about doing somebody's gonna get started because we like put so much pressure but like, it's almost like, if you try and it fails, it's gonna be okay. Like it doesn't no one's gonna be like Jen Drummond failed, like no one's doing it. No one even knows you're doing this goal. Like No one's even aware that this is happening.Jenn Drummond 13:32  Right? And for me, like I think the big thing with the accident just going back to that time in my life, like I remember. I mean, you lose this, but I wish you didn't lose it. But for the beginning of time after the accident, everything was magical. Like I had to I have seven kids they fight. I mean, it's just part of life. And before when they would fight I'd be like, okay, like, let's stop fighting. Get along. Everybody be happy. After this accident. I caught myself watching the fight. I wasn't I didn't interrupt. I didn't care. I actually sat there in awe thinking isn't it amazing how I produced both of these children? And they're so passionate about their view that is opposite of their siblings, that they're angry that their sibling won't believe the same thing they believe. Like there's actually a beauty to that experience if you can get out of it and just witness it and be like this is living. This is doing you. I have an opinion. It's not going to be for everybody and that's okay. Lesley Logan 14:32  That's it. That's such a cool, it's such a cool way to look at your children fighting. I will never forget the time that my brother and I were like totally fighting. We were just like they were a hitting we got to like we're hitting each other we're screaming to each other, this whole thing. We're young guys, don't worry there's no like actual abuse and my mom watched and she's like, are you done? Did you did you figure that out? And she, for the first time, did not yell at us about it. She just like let that happened and we both were like, Okay, I guess I guess we're done there. Lesley Logan 15:03  Yeah. I guess that happened. Thank you. Onwards.Lesley Logan 15:07  I do love that you brought up like there is it's really hard to keep that. Or like everything is magical and you can observe it and go, wow, I'm here. It's kind of like anything that's new. Like we recently bought our house and like, when we first moved in, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe like we have this house all this stuff and like, it was like, you know, and then all of a sudden you're it's like the same place you wake up every day you forget, like, this is incredible achievement that I have. It's a really hard thing to keep the preciousness and the gratitude and the presentness there.Jenn Drummond 15:37  Yeah, I think you nailed it with the presentness. Right.Lesley Logan 15:40  So okay, so okay, this is, so 2020 your coach is like you're gonna this is the goal we're gonna have this is the Guinness World Record you can have. The second sevens. Okay, that's very, I've never heard of this. It sounds really cool. But it does sound how can it how can it be harder than the first one that seems really (inaudible).Jenn Drummond 15:57  It's they're judging them off a height. So for example, Everest is the tallest mountain in the world, not the hardest by any means. So K2 is the second tallest mountain in the world. And K2 is the difference between elementary school and college in difficulty for Everest. I mean, it's just a lot harder. And so uniquely, the second summits are harder than the first summits, and they're just harder to get to. They're not there's not as much information about them. They're harder to navigate just all the little pieces that go into it. Lesley Logan 16:31  Okay, got it. Thank you. So how, so then when so from the time you hired your coach to like you actually scaling up the first one, like, how long did that take you? What was like, What did you go through? Did your kids come? How did this go?Jenn Drummond 16:47  So this is not a kid sport. So they were spectators from home. It was interesting, because I took on this quest in 2020. A lot of where I climbed was determined on what countries open (inaudible) COVID. Right? So the first country that opened was Chile, in South America. And so I climbed Ojos del Salado, which is the second highest point there in December of 2020. The next mountain that opened and mountains have climbing seasons, you always see Everest climbed in May you always see K2 climbed in July. Like that's just how it works. So the next one that was in season opened was Mount Kenya, in Africa. So I did that one in February of 2021. Went to do Everest afterwards, even though it's not a second summit, I did it to train for K2. Jenn Drummond 17:37  After Everest, I came home and went to go to K2 and I didn't summit, we had a terrible tragedy happen, a teammate of mine died in an avalanche, and another one got hurt and that same avalanche. So when I had the choice to continue up the mountain or go down, I chose to go down. I truly believe that who we are as people is more important than what we achieve. And that the mountain will always be there. And it's really important in our pursuits, whether we're climbing mountains physically or metaphorically, that we put people over peaks. So I came home, headed off to Russia next. So Russia was in September of 2021. And this was like, go figure. So it's Russia. Attention was like not what it is today with Russia. But it was definitely like, can you get in as an American what's going on? And Russia is a very technical climb. So you want gloves that you can feel the mountain? Because you want to be able to get that feedback. You don't it's like tying tennis shoes with mittens on it's really hard to do. Yeah. So when you find you really want to feel the mountain. So I curated this perfect gear to go climb in Russia, because it was a technical climb. I land in Moscow and my bags are missing.Lesley Logan 18:52  Oh my God, no.Jenn Drummond 18:52  I'm like, what, no, that's cute. Where are my bags? They're like, No, they're not here. We don't know where they are. And the guide was at the airport. He's like, we need to go like you either climb now or you're not climbing because the weather is going to change. And this is our window. I'm like, Well, I don't have any of my stuff. We can go to a rental store and see what they have. Okay, I don't know if anybody skied in rental gear, but come on. Really? Okay, sweet. So we go to this rental store, and like Russia just opened from COVID It's September 2021. I don't know if anybody remembers COVID. But it kind of turned into this outdoor fanatical time period of life. So none of these stores have any gear whatsoever because there's no inventory because no one's shipping and making anything anywhere. Right? So I go into this store. I have to buy this jacket or I roll up the sleeves. I have to keep a backpack on and by a carabiner otherwise it falls off my shoulders. I got (inaudible) that are three sizes too big. I looked like an orphan. I'm like okay, and then I'm a girl. The coat that fit me was maroon. I hate maroon. I'm like I can't wear a maroon jacket. It's gonna look bad. And it's not my color. I have given up a lot right now, you've drawn the line.Lesley Logan 20:12  Oh my God, this is so crazy. Because also like with those things, like there's certain things that you like you feel good in, you feel competent in and do you don't feel confident in maroon. And now you've to go climb this mountain and shoot everything.Jenn Drummond 20:26  And let's just add this little detail that I don't share very often. I didn't have underwear, right? Because my underwear is in my bag. She's not there or whatever. And in Russia, they don't have normal, it's a different type of store. I don't know if I should say the word normal because that says it's negative, but it's just different. Yeah. And so the store that we're going in, you know, resembles more of a 7-11 than maybe a Target. And so they have like a few pairs of underwear. I walk out of the store with Scooby Doo underwear that has like a little penis pocket thing because they're for little boys. It's the closest thing that's gonna fit me so that's what we're wearing, friends. Let's party on.Lesley Logan 21:11  So did you okay, I want to know, did you get to that peak? Did that work? Did it work out with all that gear?Jenn Drummond 21:17  I summitted that mountain in Scooby Doo underwear, in gear that didn't fit. And here's the other thing, like I broke a toe going down because my feet kept slamming into the front of the boot. And so it's so painful. And for a part of this mountain like the second highest point in Europe, I'm butt scooting down the side because I don't want to bump my toe into the front of the boot anymore. I'm like, thank God, I didn't have my GoPro right now because it's gone in luggage land because there couldn't be one more thing that goes wrong at this moment in my life.Lesley Logan 21:50  Oh my God, I can't believe, but I love that, when you write your own book someday, or maybe you did already.Jenn Drummond 21:50  I did. Lesley Logan 21:56  You did. Did you have a Scooby Doo chapter I feel like you need it, likeJenn Drummond 22:01  No, they cut it out. Lesley Logan 22:02  Oh jeez, because that's so funny. There's so much like, it's so I can imagine it like it's I, my husband and I did the mountain in Jeju. And then the name is escaping me. But it's the highest mountain in South Korea which we used to hike all the time. And when L.A. we like stopped hiking, and we moved to Vegas, and it's six miles up six miles down. And six miles up is the easiest fucking thing in the world. The six miles down, I fell twice. My foot was shaking until it hit the ground. Because like you're just, it's going down the mountain is actually the hardest part. And I was like, I wish I wish I could go down on my butt right now. But that is not happening on this mountain. So I just was like trying to go sideways. I turned around. Like it was a whole thing just to get down and went there was like no way to get a cab there. And this girl was right in front of me. And she walked up to the only cab that was there. But she hesitated. I said, Oh, are you not taking that? And she's like, so kind. She's like, which is her fault? Not mine. She's like, Oh, you can have it. And I was like we're taking it and I just grabbed her I like get the fuck over here and get in this car, we're never gonna get a cab and we're going straight to a massage place right now.Jenn Drummond 23:14  What people don't understand is the downhill is when most of most of the accidents happen, like more people die on the descent than the ascent. It's crazy. Lesley Logan 23:23  That's so interesting. Thanks. So okay, so that was your second or third of theJenn Drummond 23:29  It was the fourth attempt, third summit. Okay. And then I went to Antarctica. And climbed the second highest point there. Yeah, that was a pretty epic adventure. That mountain has only been summited by one female before me. And only by about 15 people before me. And the two years prior to us going there had no success. So when we were looking at the notes, right, the notes are a few years old, snow has happened, weathers happen, whatever. And you're like, okay, well, is that rock missing? Because it rolled down the mountain? Is it underneath the snow? Did we take a wrong turn? Like you just it's very interesting when you don't have as much information? Yeah, when you're starting on a pursuit and how much energy it takes just to do all the little movements, because the path's not paved. And I really like LinkedIn to that mountain realizing that every step we all take is so significant for the next generation to be able to do it more efficiently and then go further than what what were you able to do in our (inaudible). And then from Antarctica. I wanted to climb Mount Logan, which is the second highest point in North America next to Denali. We didn't summit, we had terrible weather, terrible weather. It was too dangerous to continue. So we came home went back to K2 and summited so, woohoo. Lesley Logan 23:29  Okay, you did it. Yeah. Jenn Drummond 23:31  Did it? Yep. And then went to Australia to climb Mount Townsend. And then we waited till May again to climb out Logan because the climbing season is in May. And we had summit success on June 1st of 2023 and the record was set. Lesley Logan 25:10  Oh my God, you are a Guinness World Record holder right here and also you, that's three years from like, less than three years.Jenn Drummond 25:20  Yeah, two and a half years.Lesley Logan 25:20  Yeah. Two and a half years. Also, as someone who's used to flying to Southeast Asia a lot. I don't know how you got flights to half these places, because they're just because they opened up doesn't mean anyone's like to take boats. Like, that's just the journey to even achieving this goal is really cool. I feel and I just want to highlight what you said about Antarctica. It's like your, the footsteps you're taking, it's like you're, you are leaving a path for the next person. And we're all doing that. And so sometimes when we're like, I have to tell myself, it's not easy. I can't always accept it. But like when you're like, Okay, I'm doing this challenge, it's the fucking hardest thing I've ever done. But it is going to be easier for the next person behind me. And if that, some days I can help you just take one more step.Lesley Logan 25:21  Whatever you need to do to get your mind to allow you to do one more step. Right. Yeah. And that is where the magic lies. Lesley Logan 25:59  So okay, to your kids, do your kids think that you're the coolest like they do they, are they as excited about this asJenn Drummond 26:16  This is my, this is my son. This is like, this is my life in a nutshell. If I could give you a 32nd overview of what my life is like, I land in the airport. My son gives me a hug. Mom, congratulations. It's so awesome. You're gonna be at the book. Yeah, honey, I'm super excited. Mom, you have bad breath. What have you been doing? Like, I've been on a plane for like, 10 hours. Thank you. Love you too. That's life, like, you're like the coolest thing in the world. And then you're something gross. So that's how it goes. Lesley Logan 26:48  It's a balance. Yeah.Jenn Drummond 26:49  Yeah. It's a balance.Lesley Logan 26:50  I mean, this, but I have to imagine that the training for this is really hard at when it's any time of the year, especially when you have or ,anybody but also adding on all the kids you have and homeschooling them and getting them back into things. And they have needs. How, how are you? How are you able to, like add this into your life because I think that's a lot of people get stuck. Adding something new can be so hard, whether it's to the budget or to the time or the calendar. And you don't just like go for hikes in Park City and like learn how to mountaineer like, I'm sure there's like a lot of things you had to do hours probably every time you went to do it. So how is that? How was adding this into your life?Jenn Drummond 27:29  Yeah, so the nice thing is, is that it is accumulation, right. So at least I'm climbing seven mountains, it's not like, Oh, I'm gonna go swim a sea and sail a boat and hike them out, you know, like all of it is building off of each other. So you do have that endurance piece and just that knowledge that kind of accumulates. But my training did not look like my friends who had no children or who had no jobs, right? My training was very much intentional, and very structured. So on Sundays, I would put in my calendar for the week with my kids, I'd fill in all my work stuff. And sometimes I had to do it by the month. But then on the weekly basis, I'd break into it. And I'd be like, Okay, Coach, here's what I have left to train, and my coach would look at me like, okay, funny, like, what am I going to do with this? There's nothing I can work with. I'm like, well, I have to pay for my life, and I have to feed humans. So mountaineering is the third thing. And what would happen is we started to get creative. So when you have restrictions or limitations or whatever, that's not a no, that's a time to pull out the creativity bone and figure out what you're going to do. And so some of the meetings that I was on, I didn't have to be visually present. So I could walk on the treadmill and do the Zoom call. Right. And I had this little thing called this Firefly. I don't know if you met Fred, the Firefly. But yes, Fred, the Firefly, a very nice friend of mine. And he listens on all my Zoom meetings that we invite him to. And he takes all the notes for me so then I can be walking. I'm like, oh, Fred caught that. I'll make sure I look at it a little more detailed later on. And so that was helpful. And then when my kids had soccer games, right, soccer games are an hour and a half they're forever. Especially when your kids not good. They're even longer, an hour and a half. And so I would bring a 12-inch step to the game. I'd bring a backpack full of water bottles, and I was that mom like standing on the sideline, going doing my step up. So I was watching the game instead of the mom that was sitting there just watching. So I had to you know, I had to make it work.Lesley Logan 29:30  I think that's so cool. I love that you brought up the Firefly, we use Fathom, you guys, there's so many note-takers out there now and they're so great because they'll highlight all the questions that are being asked and you're like someone asked a question, what was that question? If you can't like, listen to the whole thing. It's, I love that there's so you utilize the tools that were out there to be as creative as possible. And I actually think that constraints. I actually think the busier you are, the more likely you are to succeed at the things you want to do because you you have to make it work, you can't go, Oh, I'll do that workout later because, you know, this came up or this came up, like I have friends. I'm on a, I'm on a thread on WhatsApp, like 50-something people, which is chaos. And I'm like when do these people sleep, and like, sometimes they're planning all these things and I'm like, they can't they they're like, Oh, I wasn't able to make it, this came up and I'm like, No, I don't this, I make everything happen. Because if I don't, there's no other opportunity later in the week to recap that, like I have to happen on the day it is. And I find that one, it makes me a person you can rely on for sure, because I'm gonna show up when I said I was because that's when it's gonna happen. But also, it really helps me hold myself accountable to the challenges I want to take on for myself, because I don't have a time to procrastinate. So I think that that can also be great. Jenn Drummond 30:44  Right. Like, I don't have an option it does now or does not ever happen. Lesley Logan 30:47  Yeah, yeah. Does now or does not. And then also, you know, your kids are seeing you still being there for them. But also, creatively find a way to be there for the things that you want to do, which I think is really cool for them to learn. Jenn Drummond 31:01  Yeah and we're doing life in parallel, right? Like before, it was me kind of appreciate, oh, do your homework, eat healthy exercise, blah, blah, blah, when you're doing it with them. Yeah, I don't want to eat healthy either honey, but I have to, or I don't feel like working out. But if I don't, I could die. So I have to work out and you need to do your math. And this is how it works. And so you can just relate to each other in those pain points, and motivate each other to continue on. And I think that's benefited our relationship at a level I didn't expect.Lesley Logan 31:28  Yeah, I imagine you're right. Because I think sometimes kids just want to feel seen. And they're things that don't actually need you to tell they know that do their homework. But like, they they want to say it's hard, and they want to be able to feel their feelings. And instead of us I'm like, Oh, just do it anyways, you're like, Yeah, I feel that too. Like, here's like, I think that's actually really healthy. Jenn Drummond 31:50  Yeah, you know it's been great. Lesley Logan 31:52  Yeah. So okay, so you did that you in two and a half years, you did something no woman has ever done, which is insane. Like when you think about it, two and a half years was not a long period of time. What did you do to celebrate that? Because I feel like it's so important. Did you have time? I mean, you have life that you'd go back to and work and kids about? Like, was there a time that you could like, celebrate what you did before you like made a new goal? Jenn Drummond 32:15  Yeah, I have not made a new goal. Yes. And I want to share that because I think our society preaches what's next, what's next, what's next. And we forget to enjoy what is. And so I made a promise to myself, like I was not picking up another goal for 12 months, because I'm a fast start and a hard stop. So I need to be very cautious of what I pick up. And for me, I was like, You know what I want to teach my kids to appreciate and respect the rest, and respect the recovery and respect, like the cycle of life, it's not always go, go go, we'd need to nurture and nourish ourselves to be able to go when the next thing calls. So I'm very much taking an attentional gap year, or whatever you want to call it. I do have a book coming out in January. So it's named, Breakproof: 7 Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals. I wrote that along the journey. And I really wrote it to myself, before I started on the quest, because I named it Breakproof. And the reason why I named it Breakproof is because when you think of the term break, you can take a break and evaluate what's going on. Or you can be doing something and not really paying attention to things that aren't working. And then all sudden something breaks, right? You don't get the job, the relationship has an issue or whatever else. But it's in those breaks, that we have the proof to know what's working, what's not working, how do we want to continue forward, what maybe we don't want to continue forward, and we want to pivot and go another direction, whatever that is, is fine, as long as you continue to pursue life. And so I wrote this book, and I take people on the adventure of the different mountains, I go to extract the different lessons that I think fall under the category of resilience. Help the reader figure out, oh, if I have a big goal, it's going to take a big team, because big mountains, take big teams and just all these little things that help you have those oh, yeah, I see that. Okay. Yeah, here's where it didn't work for me. Here's some things I can do to maybe get further up the mountain next time.Lesley Logan 32:16  Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited about this. Because I, I mean, even as you're talking about the different things that you like, learn how to do along the way, wear maroon but also, you know, like that you sometimes you show up to things and you don't have all the tools that you've been practicing with and like the show does go on and you have to decide how you're going to go through with that. I mean, I'm so glad that that one worked out because I don't know that you would have been able to get in again. But I am excited for this book. We'll make sure it's on the show notes for when this episode comes out and everything, because I think a lot of our listeners would love to, like, hear the story. I mean, it was just I hope someone makes a movie about it too. Like, there's just I hope you have a whole team doing that, because it's so fun to see that challenge, but also reflect upon what we learn along the way. It's not just like how to be a better mountaineer. It's like, everything can apply to the rest of your life. Jenn Drummond 35:25  100% Lesley Logan 35:26  Yeah. And I just am relishing that you, you're like, I'm going to take a gap year because one, it allows you to probably finish this book and also really kind of dislike just you. That's a frickin crazy accomplishment. And also, like, what do you want to do next? I think we do move so fast to the next thing we don't actually pay attention to like is this what I want to do, or is this like, what other people want for me to do?Jenn Drummond 35:52  Easy to get caught in that cycle? For sure. Lesley Logan 35:54  Yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh, well, you're amazing. We'll take a brief break, and then we'll find out where people can hear more about you. Lesley Logan 36:00  All right, Jenn, where do you hang out? I mean, if you have time to hang out on the socials or the websites, like where can people get more from you?  Jenn Drummond 36:08  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my website is jenndrummond.com. And that's Jenn with two Ns. And if you head there, you can preorder my book, which gives you a whole bunch of fun freebies, and all that good stuff. I have some challenges there. I do speaking events, I have a course. And then also all of my social media are housed there. So depending on what platform you prefer to communicate on, reach out say hi, I love connecting with people. That's why I do podcasts. It's just so fun to hear other people's stories and what mountains they're taking on. Lesley Logan 36:40  Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I think that's a really great, I. It's really great. Before I let you go, you've given us like a lot of life lessons along the way. But in case people wanted to wait till the end for that last final bit, what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?Jenn Drummond 36:58  Yes. Okay, so I have this red light by my house. And for the longest time I get so grumpy because I'm on the short side. So I always hit the light red. And I'm a person that's super busy. So these people who have morning routines that seem to take the whole darn day, and can journal and gratitude and all this kind of stuff. I don't know those people like I've never met one, I'm never going to be one I don't think so one day I'm sitting at the red light. I'm super grumpy because it's red. And then I sat to myself, I'm like, you know what, I'm the only person complaining about this red light. The red light is not mad that it's red. Only I'm mad that it's red. I'm done being mad at the red light, I'm gonna turn this light into my gratitude light. So every single time I hit the light read, I'm going to start going through my gratitude list, because I don't have time for gratitude journal. And this is a way to like get it into my day. And so everybody in my car knows, like, wow, we hit the red light. It's gratitude time. And everybody goes through their gratitude. And this has changed the switch on the story so much that now when we hit a green, we're like, oh, man, we don't get to like go do our gratitude now, we got the green light. So I'm sharing that for everybody listening, because I'm sure you hit red lights in your life. And when you do take the pause and be grateful.Lesley Logan 38:17  Yes. Yes, because gratitude and judgment can't live in the same space. So what a fabulous way to use that time. Oh my gosh, you're full of awesomeness. I'm so glad we met. I'm really just like, I'm touched by this whole interview. And I'm really excited for everyone to hear it. Lesley Logan 38:33  You guys, how are you going to use these tips in your life? What was your favorite takeaway? Tag Jenn Drummond. Tag the Be It Pod. Share this with a friend who needs some help climbing a mountain in their life. I mean, what a great way to inspire the people around us. And Jenn, just thank you for showing how you can be a mom of seven kids, and take on your amazing dreams and how you made it work because I know that that's gonna be so helpful for every single person who's listening to this. So thank you for being here. And until next time, everyone, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 39:03  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. Brad Crowell 39:34  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 39:39  It is produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo. Brad Crowell 39:43  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music, and our branding by designer and artist Gianfranco Cioffi. Lesley Logan 39:50  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals and Ximena Velazquez for our transcriptions. Brad Crowell 39:56  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all the content to our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Riccardo Cosentino is joined by Oxford classmate, Vicente Cunha, to discuss his MSc in Major Programme Management dissertation on early completion payment as a mechanism to incentivize collaboration in major programmes. The pair dive into the importance of trust and transparency in major programmes and our industry's struggle to implement either. Cunha explains why a shift in mindset and a touch of empathy could be a gamechanger for major programmes.Cunha is an accomplished Industrial Engineer and with over 15 years of experience in the oil and gas industry, primarily focused on delivering complex construction projects involving large oil and gas floating production units. He brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to his work, affording him a critical perspective on the integral factors behind the design, procurement and management of large construction contracts. He is particularly passionate about forging a strong alignment between in-house construction and operations teams and establishing productive and collaborative relationships with all project stakeholders, to achieve the best possible outcome. Key Takeaways: The six must-have, evidence-based contract specs that should be included on projects to improve results.Why early completion incentives do not necessarily lead to better outcomes.Red flag behaviours to avoid for effective contractor collaboration.Relational contracting vs traditional contracting and the importance of risk balance.The truth about where empathy and major programmes intersect. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn: Riccardo Cosentino's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/     If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community: Vicente Cunha's LinkedInRiccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino  00:05You're listening to navigate the major problems, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host Riccardo Cosentino a brings over 20 years of major program management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxbow universities they business group, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as a press the industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us. We sent a Konya is an accomplished industrial engineer who has an impressive MSc in major program management from the prestigious University of Oxford. He is a seasoned professional with over 15 years of experience in oil and gas industry primarily focused on delivering complex construction projects involving large oil and gas floating production units V Center brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to his work, affording him a critical perspective on the integral factors. Beyond the design, procurement and management are large construction contracts is particularly passionate about forging a strong alignment between in house construction and operation teams, and establishing productive and collaborative relationship with all project stakeholders to achieve the best possible outcome. All right, and welcome to navigate the major programs, a new episode today with the center kuliah. Are you doing the center? Hi, Riccardo, Vicente Cunha01:47I'm doing great. And thanks for having me. It's a great honor to participate in Afghani measure program. Riccardo Cosentino  01:52It's my pleasure. And thank you for agreeing to meet with me today. Today we're going to talk about a very interesting topic that you are quite familiar with, which is early completion payments as a mechanism to incentivize collaboration in major programs. Can you tell us about this topic? And why are we exploring this topic today? Vicente Cunha02:12Yeah, I actually did a dissertation about that, in my master's degree in Oxford for in mega projects, the idea is to try to understand if you include one early delivery incentive in a contract, if that would make the performance of the contract to go any better than than what we actually see. And so the paper talks about long run and complex construction projects. It's not really not about like paving a few miles of an existing freeway over the next six months. Not that paving a freeway isn't hard worker cannot go wrong. But we're looking for projects with a higher degree of innovation, higher likelihood of stakeholders conflict, longer duration, expositions, uncertainty, and so on. So if you look at the traditional lump sum, fixed price, EPC contract and where contractors would compete for the lowest price to deliver a fixed scope, the dissertation starts from there. And the idea that if you have a higher degree of owner and contractor collaboration, it would have a better outcome for the project, we try to figure out that the incentive itself would booster that collaboration. The idea would be something like, let's say we have a conflict there. And I decide not to pursue what I think it's right. Because I'm looking for something else. In the end, that would be like the bonus for early delivery. That's the idea of the dissertation. Riccardo Cosentino  03:34Interesting. Maybe for the people following us for the first time, what's your background? What What inspired you to look at this particular topic, Vicente Cunha03:43I've been working in high complex, long run projects for for a while for like the last 15 years. So I work with shipbuilding, construction, oil and gas platforms. And what I found is that it's really hard to keep a project on track, my experience is about like a five year running project. And over time, we face so many difficulties that at some point, we are not talking about the target date anymore, and cost escalates and everything that's there in the literature. And it's very common in many projects. So I start thinking, what is wrong there? And how can we actually make sure that both owner and contractor are looking at the same picture and trying to do their best effort. And at some point, we had a great opportunity, stopping for a while before the project that I'm working now. And we put a group to study it and see what can we do better for for the next contract for the next project. And we came with some of the things we're going to talk about today. It's just all there in our new contract, and we are trying to figure out how to get better. And one of the thing is, is putting their incentive for early delivery. And then that's just the true question that came from my my work. Is it working or not? Is that the way to get a better outcome? I still don't have the answer in my actual works. It's just running out the incentive Is there and I can tell yet how the end of the story on my personal work is going to be. So I decided to jump ahead and try to figure out in the literature what to expect. Riccardo Cosentino  05:10Interesting. And so from your literature review, what were you able to find out in terms of Is there research already in place that talks about the benefits or disadvantages of alien completion bonuses? Vicente Cunha05:24So the answer is quite simple. It's a spoiler to the end of the dissertation here, it's not doing any good. Like what I did is I interview experienced professionals in large construction projects and different industries, different positions. And we talk about collaboration and many topics in collaboration. And I couldn't find any evidence that just included incentive would boost those practice. That's the idea of not saying that early incentive wouldn't help. That's not what it is about, it's about because there is a early incentive, would it make the other behaviors during the contract to work better, as I mentioned before, one of the parties being thinking about not pursuing some of their interests is because they're looking for something else in the end, and I couldn't find evidence that this would work. But I do find very interesting evidence and very interesting, I could confirm with the interviews, that there is a list of main contract prospects, and that you should include in your contracts, and there are some owner contractor desired behaviors, that if it's present there, the outcomes were going to be better. So I was looking for something and I find something else, that there's actually a list of things that you should be worried about, that you should do. And if you do those things, you probably will find better outcomes on a project, Riccardo Cosentino  06:42understand what you're saying to a certain degree. And maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. I think it's an interesting topic during the for your research, did you find out that maybe early completion, bonuses could be a positive thing for major programs, however, other mechanism, so you need to really be a package of incentives, a package of things that align behaviors, rather than just one thing that would solve major program delays and cost overruns? Vicente Cunha07:12Exactly. And I would add to that, it might not even be on the top of the list of the things you should have. It's definitely part of the package as opposed to but I would say there are a few other things that you should care more than just add the incentive. Riccardo Cosentino  07:25Okay, so maybe let's explore that, because I read your dissertation and you talk about things that you must have things that are very important and things that are less important in a particular contract. So from your research, what what are the things that must be included in any EPC contract or in any contract to increase the collaboration, and therefore, to increase the chances that a project will be completed on time and on budget, Vicente Cunha07:50the way that I that I frame it is there's a list of things that you should add to your contract. So we talk about things that you should research upfront, and try to include there. And then there is a list of behaviors that could work for for any given contract that you already have. Of course, if you have a contract where the previous list, let's say are there, it's going to be easy to perform those behaviors. So that list of the things that you should take care of in advance, it's quite small. So I got to six topics that I call them must have, and they are contractors, early engagement, they are clear goals and objectives alignment. And then I could say, adding a bonus could work for that topic, a fair risk balanced distribution, and select trustable and competent companies and have a strategy based on your your design, maturity, and put achievable schedule and fair price. So most of the time, you just ask for something that it's an attainable, so it's impossible to go from there. And then if you take care of those six things, and they're just six, but there is a lot of work to put those six things in place. So it's not that at all, it's just doing six things. No, there is a lot of work. There's a lot of work, I can tell because we tried to do that. And there's a lot of research that you have to do if your track of projects and historical data your companies have and try to put it in a fair balance there. And then you go to the behavior. So there are few as well. But then you should like for an owner's behavior, try to avoid like excessive penalties, avoid micromanaging in from a contractors behavior, you should try not to act opportunistically. Those are all things that in any given contract, as I said, you should be worried about and try to implement on a daily basis. Riccardo Cosentino  09:36So in your mind, what comes first, do you need to have a contract to incentivize behaviors? Or do you need to have the behaviors and the contract is just a guardrail, but in your mind to have a successful major program? What should be the right order? Vicente Cunha09:53It's hard to tell. I mean, if you don't have the basics in the contract, it's going to be very difficult to fix. sample for contracts are not to act opportunistically. So if you say to a contractor that you put a lot of requirements, you put like unattainable possible target date, and you keep pushing for him to deliver what you asked in the contract, and you keep asking, trying to give him penalties and everything that the contract allows you to do, it's really hard not to expect that he would act opportunistically, that he would avoid giving you all the information that you would use to to punish him. So in the other way, like if you have a fair contract, and then I'm putting fair here, just the expression of things that are, let's say, okay to be achieved, and you don't have any other mechanisms that I'm saying they're good for collaboration, you should be able to work without opportunistically you should be able to have a good relationship, because the contract is fair is reasonable. So even if it's not prepared for boosting collaboration, there, there shouldn't be a problem for both sides to act in a good way. Riccardo Cosentino  10:55Yeah, interesting. What I'm starting to find out is that many clients are now actually utilizing behavioral assessment tools when selecting contractor. So not only they want a contract a fair and it provides the right incentives and the right behaviors. Clients are actually starting to assess the collaborative behavior of the parties that they hire. And because, yes, the contract is important, and the guides, but ultimately, it people that deliver those contracts, and if the people don't have the right behaviors and attitudes, there's only so much that the contract can regulate. Vicente Cunha11:37Exactly, I like to do that parallel. Although I'm talking about complex and long run and very expensive projects, I like to do the parallel, if you're doing your job at your home, if you're hiring someone to fix or remodel your home, that's exactly how you would do you would hire someone that you trust that you know, you're gonna get well, and that's going to take the job to the hands, not exactly the lowest price, it's not exactly like the fastest one. It's just the one that because you you know, or because someone recommend you you would work with. But when you try to apply that to the industry to the organization's you normally would have a very difficult time on selecting preferred contractors. That's the main problem there, you are not allowed to work with your preferred partners. I even don't know in my industry, how would do some kind of assessment that you mentioned, and would hire someone based on that assessment? Because I would like to do that I prefer to work with that company than the other one. I mean, just because they have the right behavior just because they can work on a more collaborative way. They they can establish some kind of partnership they deliver. But I don't know how to do that. Riccardo Cosentino  12:43Yeah, so my experience is that they use this process called cognitive behavioral assessment. So whenever you have Alliance type contracts, where you are basically selecting somebody that to help you deliver the program, you as the older retain all of the risk, because in an alliance contracting and IPD type contract, the risk is with the owner, having a collaborative partner becomes paramount. So they now use cognitive behavioral assessment. And they going through behavioral assessment is done on the individuals not on the company. So individuals are actually trained and tested prior to selecting the organization that is going to deliver in the sim. I haven't been involved personally. But some colleagues that have taken part and yeah, it shifts completely the the attention of the people involved in the project. And it actually demonstrated that if you have worked in adversarial type contract or your career, it's really difficult to switch to a collaborative behavior. And so typically, the first step is to have to have individuals that have worked in collaborative environment before because they probably are more prone to be collaborative. Vicente Cunha13:56Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned the IPD, integrated project and the more collaborative way to work that, yeah, there's a lot of literature on the relation of contracts, I haven't experienced them. As I said, it's probably going to be shocking, and but I do believe that we should be moving to in terms of running our projects. But the idea is, how can we move there but still have like the traditional contracts? That's kind of what the dissertation is trying to do. So I take a lot of the ideas that the relational contracts have, and I try to implement them on a traditional contract because I don't see how we were going to move from the traditional because of like the lowest bids, the lowest price bid strategy that we are, I mean, many of the projects are supposed to adopt when they involve treasure money or when they have like a big organization that needs to follow that by law. So those concepts are the ones that I would pursue, and those are actually the ones that appear on my dissertation as the main concepts. Riccardo Cosentino  14:51It's interesting because I've been looking at EPC or we call it lump sum turnkey contracts quite a bit of a bit of a theory and I'd like to hear what you think, which is an EPC contract is really a zero sum game, where you have a winner and a loser. And because ultimately, if you're a contractor, you're given a fixed price, you have to deliver for that fixed price. The client has provided specification and they're going to enforce this specification. It's almost, if you're a contractor, you're not making money, you know, winning this zero sum game, how can you align a situation where you have a zero sum game with a collaborative approach? Do you think that's even possible? But what's more your findings in your research? Vicente Cunha15:35I think it's possible, but I still don't know how to do it. So they did that I always had in mind is let's talk like about risk balance, as an owner talking on an owner perspective here, I really care about the target date, the delivery date, but then when I go to a contract, because I'm so used to do the traditional, the adversarial, traditional contract, and I'm so used to always protect myself in the way I write the contract, I would say, Well, it's a fixed price. So any price escalation, it's your contractors fault. So you need to deal with that. And then what happens if like, I'm really looking for a target date, but when there is a price escalation, I say, that's your risk. And then what do we expect a contractor will do if by the time he needs to put that material order or that he needs to put that purchase order for for critical equipment? If there is a price escalation in that exactly time? So do we expect him to go ahead and assume that extra cost because he's looking for my interest in your on a target date? Or do we expect him to delay amount for two months to put that order and just assume that he's going to be able to work around it or in terms of scheduling and recover that later on. So the way I set my contract and giving him the way he should do, if I were his side, I would postpone my purchase order in one or two months. And as an owner, although I said, I'm really interested in the target date, and I have penalties for not following the target date. I mean, I won't be able to push him to put the PO on a high escalation price, because he knows the market will fluctuate and in, he'll have a better chance to put that later on. If we don't get to that. When I say I don't know, because I don't know how to get to my competence. Say, let's assume this collision risk here. Let's assume this escalation as long as the guy can prove me, the other side can prove me that by going into the higher price, he's saving time for the project. I don't have a way to do that nowadays. But I do believe it's possible. And that takes a lot of collaboration and a lot of partnerships. It's like, I wouldn't do that. If I don't trust the other sides, I might just have someone on the other side, just following like, forward me higher price PO notes, so I prove it. And that wouldn't be nice. So exactly. It takes trust, it takes like working with procured companies working with with people that to you can actually transparency and all those things. So they're not easy at all. But like from owners perspective, if I look at my organization and the experience that I could get during the interviews, nobody's willing to do that. You see, like, I care about the delivery time more than I care about the price escalation that might arise. But when I write the contract, I don't put it there. I keep like taking care of the money all the time. It's a strange, Riccardo Cosentino  18:09yeah, my experience of being on the contractor side is there is a lot of opportunity, and you touch upon your dissertation, a lot of opportunistic behaviors, we must be difficult for a client to understand when a contractor is truly asking for help. Or they just asking to be relieved of obligation that they've taken on? And now they don't know how to manage it? And that's where the trust comes in. But how do you build the trust to a point where you're not questioning the opportunistic behaviors all the time? Vicente Cunha18:43Yeah, the other question that I always ask myself and my colleagues and partners is there is kind of an idea that because you write something on a contract that you transfer the risk, or you transfer that to somebody else. So let's think about COVID. If we take any contracting like 10 years ago, nobody would say pandemic or COVID, or anything like that, because it wasn't there. But if you take any given contract nowadays, COVID is going to be there. And probably it's going to be written that contractor should take all the actions and should take the extra costs and everything to cover any new pandemics is going to rise. And of course, contracts. We won't do anything with that because like if we saw what happened into the pandemics, the cost is there the extra money that you need to put into to keep things moving, it was just an attainable it's it was possible to be taken. So I feel like from an owners perspective, just because you put it there, well COVID It's your problem. You think the problem is gone but if the problem comes you have doubled the problem because now you said it is there so you cannot work around it and find a solution because if you say it's there and the price covers that how can it not work around it but the problem is not going to go away because if happens contractor just come to you and say well, I know it's here but my press doesn't cover it. Do you expect me to put how much to cover it so that kind of mentality needs to change from both sides. I guess Riccardo Cosentino  19:59you If it's not easy, I mean, I think what you described is what I call risk damping, right? When you is no longer just transferring risk, you're literally trying to dump the risk to somebody else. But ultimately, clients are always responsible for the ultimate outcomes. Because the contractor at the end of the day will do what they can to defend themselves and to stay alive to stay in business. And ultimately, the price of delay will be borne by the client. I mean, you know, in your case, if you have, you know, you need to start drilling for oil. And if your platform is not ready, ultimately, your organization is going to suffer, Vicente Cunha20:36exactly. And then you have the lowest bidding price, which is always there in the beginning. So we talk about making contracts collaboratively. And we talk about throwing a lot of new ideas in a contract, but it's the lowest price is always there. I guess, if you're a contractor and you don't have like a portfolio at the moment, you were willing to go very low to get that next project. And then you put yourself in a position that well, it's would be great. Even if we have a track record, we have a trust for these specific projects, I'm sorry, I went too low on the beads, I won't be able to cover what I did the previous project, it was a different situation there. Riccardo Cosentino  21:14I guess the lowest price bidding process, really incentivize the opportunistic behaviors. So it's really difficult to reconcile that with collaboration, because ultimately, if you provide the lowest price, you probably cut some corners somewhere. And then you're always trying to recover from those early position that you've taken, making collaboration, quite difficult to be achieved, because you're always looking for opportunities, something that you might admire left on the table to begin with. I think we're coming to the end of the podcast, I think we've covered quite a few topics. So in summary, will be your conclusion from your research about collaboration and implementation of collaboration in major programs. Vicente Cunha21:57So as we said, I believe that's the path we should be following. So looking at IPD, looking at the concepts and behaviors that I found in my dissertation, I believe that that's where the solution to many of the problems that we that we see probably there, but there is a lot of difficult to implement it. So I would say first, if I have to give like an advice, I would say, we need to be questioning ourselves all the time. So most of the things that I'm that I'm saying here, they are not things that I manage to implement in my daily routine. It's just that I've been thinking about them all the time. And every time I came to a problem that I'm always asking that kind of question to my colleagues and my partners and say, What would you do? If you were on the other side? What do we expect the other side to do, if if we know that they can't bear this risk, they can't go that way, they're not going to lose money. So that's always keep questioning yourself on how the other part is expected to behave, what you can do up front, as we said, making a better contract. And also during the daily routine of contract relationship, what you can do to make sure that the two are trying to help and each other is aware of other side problems and other side difficult and also the problems are faces, it's very hard to solve, you better act before it, you better try to anticipate the problems and better say, Well, if you go in that way, it's not going to end well. So let's see what's making you go this way. What can I do from my side that we can fix it and and start going somewhere else from here because once we get there and things surface, it's really hard to solve. Riccardo Cosentino  23:34I think as an industry as a major program industry, I think we all have to start working towards more collaboration and put the effort into things that help building major programs rather than things that helps managing the contractual aspects of major programs because managing the contract doesn't get more things built. They just get more lawyers fees paid Vicente Cunha23:58exactly the way we we set our mindset. It's really about mindset like we've been working on that mindset for such a long time. First things we're talking here right now might just scare some of the lawyers that are listening to us. And some of our our colleagues say those guys are crazy. I would never let them deal with a project. But yeah, it's just about mindset and trying to just do small things and doing better on your next project and trying to get to more close to the relational idea, the litterature to call this really well. Riccardo Cosentino  24:31Yeah, I mean, he's not like the history major projects. This is full of successes. So I think different thinking is needed because clearly what we've been doing up to now exactly. Well, we say thank you very much for taking part in today's episode of navigating major programs is being a really interesting conversation. I hope maybe to have you again on the on the show in the future covering other topics. Vicente Cunha24:56Yeah, sure. They can always count on me and it's been a great pleasure in a very nice discussion. Thanks for having me again. See you. Riccardo Cosentino  25:03Thank you already sent it to you soon. Bye. That's it for this episode of navigating major problems. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, where we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to navigate the major programs and I look forward to keeping the conversation going Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

0:00 Intro 4:50 Big News 14:00 Announcements 19:20 France 21:10 New Zealand 30:00 Main Topic 59:42 Dr. Malcolm LeCompte   - While 2023 is the year of CONTRACTION for "stuff," it's also the year of EXPANSION of consciousness - The people are realizing it's ALL theater: Currency, elections, vaccine "science," censorship and more - Major French food company shutters 80% of production due to high energy prices - How will Europe produce food if electricity costs make manufacturing impossible? - Amazon lays off 18,000 workers as mass tech layoffs begin - Sherri Tenpenny joining Brighteon.TV (Monday evenings) - Insanely bad math skills across younger Americans - 690 cars torched in France during New Year's chaos - EcoHealth whistleblower says CIA ran gain-of-function intelligence operation for COVID - It's raining microplastics in New Zealand - Tiny microplastics are INHALED by those who live in cities, entering organ and brain cells - Interview with Dr. Malcolm LeCompte on astrophysical / planetary science (Comet Research Group) - The comet impact theory in detail, 12,800 years ago - Meltglass, glass spherules, nanodiamonds, iridium platinum and impact elements - Adams offers laboratory microscopy and mass spec analysis to comet research group - The moon as an Earth defense launch base - How to save Earth from cosmic impacts that can destroy cities or civilizations For more updates, visit: http://www.brighteon.com/channel/hrreport NaturalNews videos would not be possible without you, as always we remain passionately dedicated to our mission of educating people all over the world on the subject of natural healing remedies and personal liberty (food freedom, medical freedom, the freedom of speech, etc.). Together, we're helping create a better world, with more honest food labeling, reduced chemical contamination, the avoidance of toxic heavy metals and vastly increased scientific transparency. ▶️ Every dollar you spend at the Health Ranger Store goes toward helping us achieve important science and content goals for humanity: https://www.healthrangerstore.com/ ▶️ Sign Up For Our Newsletter: https://www.naturalnews.com/Readerregistration.html ▶️ Brighteon: https://www.brighteon.com/channels/hrreport ▶️ Join Our Social Network: https://brighteon.social/@HealthRanger ▶️ Check In Stock Products at: https://PrepWithMike.com

Peter C. DeHaass will tell you he has been a builder of bridges for people in many disenfranchised communities for most of his life. I learned about Peter from AccessiBe's nonprofit partnerships manager, Sheldon Lewis. Peter does not come directly from a family with any person with a disability. However, his family has produced many educators including Peter.   On this episode, you will learn about Peter's journey West from Pennsylvania and how he eventually landed in San Francisco where he had to utilize his entrepreneurial spirit just to survive and put food on the table. Most recently, in 2020, Peter formed the San Francisco Disability Business Alliance. This organization is focused on empowering individuals with disabilities to secure economic independence through self-employment and small business ownership.   I think you will find Peter's story inspiring and his mission important to many   About the Guest:   Peter C. DeHaas is a mission-driven professional with a lifelong track record of building pathways to academic, housing, and economic sustainability for diversely abled individuals from He is leading the charge to expand how we think about “diversity” to include individuals with diverse abilities (disabilities) and the businesses and organizations they engage with. Peter's career has spanned economic development, housing advocacy, education inclusion, and direct human services for a wide range of diverse clients, including veterans, the formerly incarcerated, youth, adults, immigrants and their families. Peter has experience building pathways to economic and academic inclusion for the deaf and hard of hearing, intellectually and developmentally disabled adults, individuals struggling with learning differences or mental illness, and physical disabilities. Currently, Peter founded and leads the San Francisco Disability Business Alliance (SFDBA), the first organization of its kind in the country focused on empowering individuals with disabilities to secure economic independence through self-employment and small business ownership. Through his work at the SFDBA, Peter has built partnerships between the growing community of disability-owned small businesses in San Francisco and major local corporations including Kaiser Permanente and Bank of the West. Peter is also fluent in American Sign Language (ASL) and, over the past 9 years has taught ASL to more than 1000 future educators, social workers, nurses, and community advocates as a lecturer at San Francisco State University. In his previous role as Director of Disability Resources and Academic Inclusion, Peter built pathways to academic success for more than 2000 diverse students at Golden Gate University – the majority of whom were women, people of color, veterans, and often all three-across the University's Law and Business programs. In Colorado, Peter spearheaded community engagement across a number of successful direct-serving programs including launching the Bridges to Boulder Community Sign Language program and cultivating the non-attorney advocacy program between Denver University and the Colorado Cross Disability Coalition. Above all, Peter is a builder of bridges and is skilled at finding ways and mustering resources to connect deeply with diverse people and communities, resulting in lasting partnerships and positive economic, social, and community impact.   Link for the San Francisco Disability Business Alliance :   http://www.sfdba.org/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. today. Our guest is Peter DeHaas who to right now is operating the San Francisco Disability Business Alliance. But there's a whole lot more to Peter than that, and we're gonna get into it as we as we go forward. So Peter, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Peter DeHaas  01:40 Thanks for having me, Michael.   Michael Hingson  01:42 Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm jealous because as you can tell San Francisco diversity Business Alliance, you know where Peter is. We lived in the San Francisco Bay Area in Novato, which is in what's called the North Bay for 12 years, and missing greatly. We lived in an area called Bell marine keys. And we actually had ducks that came up to our back door every day, begging for food. So yeah, it was a lot of fun. When we were when we first were moving in, we had a contractor had to modify the house for my wife who uses a wheelchair. And he made the mistake of seeing some of the ducks on the patio and opening the door. He was eating a doughnut and he gave them a part of the doughnut. And he said after that if he didn't have something for them, they'd go for the throat. So there's a lot of fun. So yeah, we were we were spoiled. Well, tell me a little bit about your background, you know yourself, where your what you what you did, how you got into school and beyond and all that sort of stuff, if you would?   Peter DeHaas  02:46 Well. I started out I was born and raised in Pennsylvania on the East Coast and lived for several years in Connecticut as well until I started making my way west. I come from a family of educators and builders. So I come by my my connection to being in education and advocacy and building bridges. Honestly, two of my sisters are special educators. And that's how I got my start learning the manual alphabet in American Sign Language. And I remained curious from from third grade is when I learned the manual alphabet all the way through middle school, I had a dear friend who was deaf. And then fast forward to 1992 I moved to Boulder, Colorado, in started working for a little organization at the time called Developmental Disability Center. Now it's called Imagine and I was working for their Supported Employment Department called labor source, serving individuals who had previously been institutionalized in the state of Colorado and deemed unemployable by by the Department of occupational rehab there. And we were kind of a renegade organization that built employment services for individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities proudly in the Boulder County in Broomfield county areas. And that's really where I got my start working in the field and and simultaneously started really learning American Sign Language because I recognized that many of the clients that we serve were nonverbal, several were deaf, some were hard of hearing, and many of them utilized Sign Language As a means to communicate. And I noticed that many of my co workers tried to utilize signs like more and please and thank you. But then there were just lapses and gaps in communication. And, you know, being that I was earning a whopping $5.50 an hour at the time, I saw a great opportunity to learn ASL and the organization that I was working for, paid for all of my ASL instruction up until the point that I launched into my master's in linguistics at the University of Colorado Boulder. Because I really was intrigued by the intersectionality of, of the deaf community and the the language of ASL and how the two were really inseparable with the goal of teaching at the post secondary level. And so I graduated with my master's degree, I believe it was in 2009. And then, in 2013, I made my westward journey a little further here to San Francisco to support my youngest son Thelonious who moved out here in 2010. And my oldest son, Hans, came along with me and I landed here in San Francisco working for San Francisco Recreation and Parks, inclusion program, supporting young adults with disabilities, in particular, their ASL intensive program here and the mission, as well as some of their their summer camps. And then soon after that, I was offered a position at San Francisco State University as a lecturer in American Sign Language, which I've taught over 1000 students there at San Francisco State from such a diverse background of of not only focus of study, but but most of my students are first generation college participants, and it's really intriguing work. And you may find it hard to believe, but I then got a third position. It takes a lot to live in San Francisco, I got a third position working at Golden Gate University, as their coordinator for Disability Resources and academic accommodations. And over a period of seven years, I grew that program into kind of a unified program. There were two siloed Disability Resource Centers when I got there, one for the law school, and one for the non law programs. And in my seven years there, I brought the programs together and developed my position into a director's position. And I guess it was the summer of 2019. I started planting the seeds for the SF DBA. And we launched in March of 2020. And I stepped down from my role at Golden Gate University shortly after that, and I still teach at San Francisco State and oversee the SF DBA. And that's, that's where I'm at today.   Michael Hingson  08:42 Oh, by the way to answer a question you asked in an email, we do make transcripts of the podcast and when the podcast goes up, they will go up as well. Excellent. I'm assuming you're not signing while you're talking since we can put up videos but I don't know how   Peter DeHaas  09:02 to do I do sign a little bit when I talk but it's not my preference to try to it   Michael Hingson  09:07 is it is probably a major challenge because that's speaking in two languages at once.   Peter DeHaas  09:13 It's it's doable, but in all fairness, I mean, in a perfect world, I'd have a little ASL interpreter at the bottom of my screen. Do you remember? I remember as a kid, we, on Sundays there would be certain evangelists on television and they would always have an ASL interpreter signing in the bottom left hand corner. And that was in the 1970s and I'm thinking, why can't we why can't we do that again? You know, it was doable then why can't you know and I'm sure that they paid for it. You know, it was privately paid for wasn't provided by the network or anything so we know where that goes. But   Michael Hingson  09:59 well, I turned it on. Have, mainly because we're still going to have the conversation and it will, we'll, we'll fix it. But I use a service called otter otter.ai. And what what otter does is real time recording and transcription of conversations, and when it's operating a person who is in a meeting or whatever, with me, can read real live transcriptions of what's happening. But what we do is just provide the transcription, because we'll go through and clean it up. Got it, or we put the podcast up. So it goes out as a really high end transcription. That's excellent. And it should be that way. Right? And makes perfect sense to do that. Well, for you, you, you started the SF DBA? And are dealing with a lot of obviously, different kinds of people. So kind of what what made you decide that this was something worth beginning? And how did you really get to the point of starting it?   Peter DeHaas  11:07 A great question? Well, as you know, San Francisco is a place that really prides itself on being innovative, diverse, there's lots of venture capital here. And people are well educated. And there's lots of opportunities for networking, after hours. And I found myself getting more and more involved with the Chamber of Commerce here and other nonprofits. And going to a lot of after hours events. And I would tell people what I do, you know, at the time, I was at Golden Gate and teaching ASL and people were intrigued by the work that I do, but but systematically, it seemed like, disability was excluded from just about every conversation that I was having with people relating to diversity, equity and inclusion. And that bothered me. However, I took that that I was just kind of baffled, to be honest with you. And I took that kind of baffled feeling and transformed it into something that I'm passionate about. I said, you know, this is a place of opportunity, and it welcomes innovation and creativity. I'm a very creative person. I'm also a musician, an artist. I said, if nobody else is going to represent small business as it relates to individuals with disabilities, well, I'm going to take a try. And I had a lot of support from not only local business leaders, but educators and advocates and even local politicians. So that was really the genesis of the SF DBA, in when I started planting seeds in 2019. And by the end of 2019, I had a fiscal sponsor, through social good Fund, which is a little umbrella organization out of Richmond, California, they do really great work for organizations doing community benefit work, really through the pilot phases. And we had Kaiser Permanente foundation come on board at the end of 2019. And, yeah, then we launched in March of 2020. Right before everything shut down.   Michael Hingson  13:48 Yes. Isn't that the way of it?   Peter DeHaas  13:51 It was very, very fortuitous that, you know, because people were just starting to whisper about maybe you should postpone the event, maybe you should, you know, and if we had waited, we would have lost that whole audience of over 100 people they were just starting to put hand sanitizer up in the in the room and nobody got sick at the Marriott you know, from from our launch event, fortunately. But we had over 100 people at the Marriott Marquis downtown. So I was just blessed that that that many people showed up. My event organizer who I hired, you know, was doing all of that worked behind the scenes. I had no idea who was going to going to show up. I was too focused on the programming for the day and whatnot. And when I looked out into the audience, Michael, I was just astounded at not only not only entrepreneurs with disabilities and small business owners with disabilities, but like I said, educators, advocates, business leaders, corporations. It just it really really moved me that that this was an important venture that I was I was embarking upon,   Michael Hingson  15:06 and rightly so. But you've said something that really prompts a question. You mentioned that you notice that is diverse as San Francisco is and so on, there wasn't a lot of discussion, especially in the business world and in the entrepreneurial world, about disabilities and so on. Even though San Francisco clearly is an incredibly inclusive city in a lot of ways, why do you think that is that disabilities weren't really part of the mainstream?   Peter DeHaas  15:39 You know, it's an interesting question. I don't know that I want to go too far down that rabbit hole, but But I posit that there's still a lot of fear and a lot of around disability. And, and I've come in contact with that before. You know, when I, when I first started working with individuals with developmental disabilities, and I was very young, I used to take offense to people staring at at the people that I worked with many times we'd be after we would work on one of our supported employment contracts, we would maybe go have lunch on the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder, and people would stare and I took offense to that when I was young. But as I matured, I realized that not everybody had the upbringing that I did. Not only, you know, surviving some, some disabilities that I had early on, when I when I was born, that I that I outgrew fortunately. But but but having the exposure at such an early age, to innovate individuals that my sisters were working with who had disabilities. And so I had that, that luxury of being kind of matriculated into that community early on. So for me, it was no different than any other community that I've been a part of in my lifetime. And I think that there's just a lot of maybe education that still needs to occur. And, you know, sometimes, as you know, Michael, it's about money. And people don't want to, or they don't know how to develop a budget or line item in their budget, to provide the appropriate accommodations. So there's that fear of the unknown? I think I could.   Michael Hingson  17:36 I agree with you, though, I think it is largely about fear. I think we we fear what we don't know. And we fear things that are different than us. And unfortunately, especially with visible disabilities, people tend to really fear it, because they don't understand it, and they haven't been taught, which is exactly what you're pointing out. And the other part about it is that until someone really starts to drive the conversation, the fear isn't going to go away. I think people don't hate persons with disabilities. I think that we, I suppose you can look at it in several ways. And in one sense, we haven't been as visible and maybe we're not elevated to the point where people hate peers, persons with disabilities, like they seem to do race things and so on. But I think mainly, it's fear that people just don't know.   Michael Hingson  18:37 And there's fear on both sides of the equation. Yes.   Peter DeHaas  18:40 You know, let's the elephant in the room. We know that disability discrimination has occurred over over the years. And there are specific laws in place that they protect individuals with disabilities in a lot of regards. I see the disability community is kind of the last frontier in terms of coming out, as it were, in celebrating their disability. I spoke with a young entrepreneur last week, who found her way to SF DBA, just through the the internet and and we met in person, you know, post COVID It was so exciting. And she was just thrilled to share her story with me in a way that she could readily self identify and not have to worry about being excluded or shamed. And this is somebody this is somebody who went to Stanford University and faced and I'm not trying to bash Stanford because, again, there's a steep learning curve and everybody's doing their best to try to, to get educated as to how to do the right thing. But she faced certain opposition in her program at Stanford when she was trying to navigate how to get accommodation hands. And there's plenty of work to be done. So again, I'm not trying to bash anybody but that's the gift that I share to the world is to help people solve problems and come up with creative solutions. We had a student, matriculating at Golden Gate University when I was there, who was deaf. And she had gone to just about every other private university in the Bay Area. And they had told her that they were not equipped, or they did not have the funding to provide ASL interpreters for her. Her pursuit. She came to me at Golden Gate University, and I was excited as soon as she landed on my doorstep. You know, obviously, I have a very close affinity to the deaf community, but it could have been any disability type, honestly. But when when she came, and she said, Peter, would you be able to provide ASL interpreters for my HR cohort program? I said, You bet you will figure out a way. And of course there were some people scratching their head on the other side, like, how are we going to do this? We created a budget, we developed a partnership with Department of occupational rehab, she already had a case with occupational rehab. We met them halfway, we paid 50%. Oh, Dr. Paid 50%. And they were quite shocked. Dr. turned to us and said, We've never had a university pay 50%. And I said, Well, that's that we're doing it because it's the best practice and it's the right thing to do. And that's, that's really, you know, a broader part of my mission, Michael is helping institutions develop best practices. It's not the specific mission of the SFDBA per se, but it, it comes with, it's a benefit that people get in associating with the SFDBA is that, you know, I believe that, that we're on the cusp of a giant wave, and you know, that working for excessive B, I think that this is just kind of, we're just at the tipping point where people are starting to recognize Oh, yeah, we are having more conversations now about disability inclusion, and I'm like, shamila Hi, this is the time, now's the time.   Michael Hingson  22:23 Well, and to be real clear, I don't think in any way you're bashing anyone, and no one should interpret it. as such. When you talk about the fears, when you talk about what organizations haven't done, it isn't really so much a question anymore, I think of what organizations haven't done, it's more important to explore, what are you going to do? Do you recognize there is an issue? And are you willing to explore addressing it, which is what you did with the young lady who was deaf. And it's something that we should all do, what we haven't yet really gotten to the point of recognizing is providing reasonable accommodations should just be considered part of the cost of doing business. Just like providing computers, providing lights, for all of you light dependent people who don't get around in the dark, we pity you, or coffee machines, or whatever. The fact is providing and having the ability to provide reasonable accommodations ought to be part of the cost of doing business. And so that does get down to a budgetary issue and being aware and putting it in right from the outset. through that. And it is something that we haven't done nearly as much of. And so it, it really helps to have the conversations like we're having, and I hope people will listen to this and take it to heart as well. But we do face still a situation where persons with disabilities are in an environment where the unemployment rate among employable people is in the 60 to 70% range. And it's not because people can't do the work. It said others who are different than we don't think we can do the work.   Peter DeHaas  24:22 Correct. And that's what I in in some of the early research for SF DBA. Michael, I uncovered a statistic that suggests that individuals with disabilities are starting a rate starting small businesses at a rate almost double that of individuals who don't have disabilities. And I really attribute that to one. Individuals with disabilities are very creative, and they're very resilient. And there's a lot of autonomy in starting your own business and who doesn't have a side hustle in the Bay Area. There are at least one side hustle, right? Frequently starting a small business, impede can be a pathway to, you know, just the success in the small business, or it could be a leveraging point to your next gig. So there's a lot of a lot of fruitful things, I think that come out of entrepreneurship.   Michael Hingson  25:23 Why do you think that so many people, though, are starting what's caused them to take that path, as opposed to other things they could do?   Peter DeHaas  25:32 Well, again, you know, even if you have one job here in San Francisco, likely doesn't pay the rent, right. Um, so I attribute it largely to, you know, the need to survive. But, you know, several young entrepreneurs that I've spoken to also say that, that it's out of necessity, because they haven't been able to land a job. And, and some people are still hesitant to even readily self identify as a result of that.   Michael Hingson  26:05 And I think that's a an extremely valid point, I remember the first time I was confronted with some of that I had been working for a company and was let go in June of 1984, at the end of June, mainly because not doing a good job, but rather the company purchased a company was actually Xerox purchased the company I was working for, because they wanted the technology and not the people. And I happened to be the last person in the sales force for their major flagship product to be let go. So at least I was there a week or two longer than others. And they decided that they just did not want any of us because they just Xerox just one of the technology. So I was looking for a job for six months, wow, couldn't find one. I even had an interview we were living in, in Mission Viejo, California, at the time. And I continued to look, and even got a call from an executive recruiter who said, gee, we see your resume, we, we really think you're very qualified for the job that we had, which I was. And everything went well, until the night before the interview, the recruiter called and said, I was just looking at your resume again. And I see that you do a lot of work with blind people. How come is that? Is there somebody in your family who's blind? And I said, Yeah, I am. I didn't mention it before. There was no need to write. But immediately, oh, my God, I don't know whether the recruiter the company is going to want to talk to you, you're blind. I said, What does that have to do with it, you liked my resume, but you're blind, doesn't matter. You didn't know that until 10 minutes ago, I already had the airplane ticket that they sat down. Anyway, the next morning, the interview was canceled. So I never flew up to San Jose to do the interview. And that happens way too often. So eventually, I and a couple of other people started a company to sell the new concept of PC based CAD systems to architects and engineers, and so on. And of course, a blind guy selling graphic technology. I was the president of the company, but who had to work the machine, I didn't need to work it, I needed to know how to work it and needed to know all about it to talk intelligently about it. But I'd rather sit an architect down in front of the machine and talk them through making it work, rather than me having to work it because then they're involved with it. So I did that for four years. And then I went back into the regular workforce. Right? But the reality is that it happens today, almost as much, but you're right. There are a lot more entrepreneurial opportunities than there used to be. And there are tools to help. So if you're a blind person, for example, and you start your own business, there, there are tools that can help. Are you familiar with a company called IRA? Ira I'm not Hi Roz AI are a it's a what's called a visual interpreter. They Ira has people who they hire because they demonstrate an aptitude for describing and they give them more advanced training on being able to describe. The idea is that you activate Ira by opening an app and you call one of their agents. Their agents are hired, trained and put under extreme non disclosure and confidentiality restrictions. So literally what happens in Ira stays an IRA. But the point is that blind people who use the service and have things described or deal with tax forms or whatever, know that whatever they do, won't be divulged. Because it's all incompetence, which is the way it should be. Well, IRA, and some companies including Quicken, have established a program where if you have a your own business, you can get free Ira services, at least at an hour or half hour at a time. But you can get free service to use their system, when you need to interact with something that requires someone to describe it to you or interact with something that's too visual to use. And there are a lot of those kinds of tools out there that are helping make it more practical for blind people to start their own businesses. And I think that in one way or another, it goes across the board. But you're right, we do it because of necessity.   Peter DeHaas  30:38 Yep. Yep. One of the partners that, in addition to accessibe that we've developed a partnership with is a company called Eva Aava. That was launched by two graduates of UC Berkeley, and it provides captioning for zoom calls and in other applications that way. So that's a very unique partnership that we've developed.   Michael Hingson  31:08 Well, that's, you know, that's pretty cool. How's accessibe worked out for you guys? I have to ask, of course, don't I?   Peter DeHaas  31:14 Well, I still I have a few organizations that I need to follow up with. I've, I've told a lot of my partners about it. And you know, it's still, it's still, you know, I say we're on the cusp of a wave, but but people are still not, you know, biting full heartedly for me. I'm excited about it. I, you know, in the fact that Judith human gets behind it, and in and I can show people that that widget, just yesterday, I was meeting with somebody, and she was talking about, you know, the advances of technology as it relates to accessibility. And she, I just noticed that she had our website open. And I see I said, Do you see that widget there? I said, Put your finger on it. And she did. And she was like, Oh, my gosh, there's so it's it's a process. But I long and short. I haven't, you know, one of my goals is to get other companies on board with excessive B as well. You know, for for a multitude of reasons. First and foremost, because it's the right thing to do. And, and there's an opportunity for SFDA as well, if, if somebody decides to go with the product? Well, the thing   Michael Hingson  32:36 about using accessibe, just generalize it, the thing about internet and website accessibility, is that most people don't know that it even exists. But they also just haven't taken the leap to recognize that they're leaving out an incredible amount of potential business for their own sites, or an incredible amount of interaction. You know, the CDC talks about up to 25% of all people having some sort of disability. And a lot of those people are left out because we can't use websites. And when you have a, you have a product like accessibility that changes that not only the widget, but then excessively has a full service department to help remediate what the widget can. But the bottom line is that today, if you talk to people with disabilities, they're going to tell you that they are incredibly loyal to companies that have made their websites usable, because then we don't have to go through all the struggle of trying to find an accessible site.   Peter DeHaas  33:46 That's true. And I'm sure you know, the state of Colorado just is the first state to mandate that all of their state websites need to be fully accessible.   Michael Hingson  33:57 Yeah, and I know one of the people who is very much involved in having architected that and gotten the legislature to do it just like they've they've been taking sort of a lead and making sure of accessible voting as well. And it makes perfect sense to do. But it it is, well, the Nielsen Company did a survey in 2016. And there's actually a report that that will talk about how much brand loyalty counts to people with disabilities and how much more website owners get because of persons with disabilities if they make their stuff accessible. But you interview awesome. Go ahead. No, go ahead.   Peter DeHaas  34:41 I lost my train of thought. Okay.   Michael Hingson  34:43 Well, so another aspect of all that, is that with you said something earlier about and starting businesses, blind people or people with disabilities tend to be very creative and so on. The real All of us were forced into that there was a guy, Dr. Jonathan Lazar, who used to work for Towson University. And I heard him speak at a National Federation of the Blind convention. And he observed that this, of course, was about blind people and internet access. He pointed out that blind people, because we are so used to being left out and work so hard at trying to find accessible sites, we also tend to be more resilient when we can sort of make something work. And it may not be that it's totally accessible, but we figure out as many workarounds as we can, to try to be able to interact directly with it. And I think that goes back to what you said, we're forced to be more creative, and it isn't just blind people is people across the board with disabilities. Yeah, it's true. So it is, it is an issue that we need to clearly address and and work on. But I hope that there will be ever increasing conversations about it, because people need to learn that there's nothing to fear. And you're right, they worry about expense, or, gee, do we have to buy special insurance for these people or whatever. And they don't recognize the other aspect of it, which is that if you hire a person with a disability, and you're fortunate enough to be able to do that, the odds are and there are studies that are starting to show this, you will have an employee who will be much more loyal and likely to stay with you, then most other employees, because we recognize how hard it is to get that job in the first place. And I'm sure you've experienced that. Yep. Yep. So it's a it is a challenge, and it is something that we need to deal with. Well, so having started the diversity, Business Alliance, and so on, what kind of an impact are you starting to see in the Bay Area? How, how has it been?   Peter DeHaas  37:17 It's the San Francisco disability Business Alliance disability   Michael Hingson  37:21 Business Alliance. I'm sorry, I don't talk good. That's, but just wanted to clarify for our No, you're right. You're right. So how is how's the impact been in terms of overall what you've been able to accomplish? And what have you been able to measure?   Peter DeHaas  37:35 Well, as I said, we launched in March of 2020. So everything shut down literally a week or two, I think it was a week or two later. And I got a text from one of my keynote speakers. And he said, Peter, you better get ready, because small businesses are going to need you more than ever. And sure enough, we started consulting with businesses on how to access PPP, reorganizing their staffing patterns, creating resources in tandem with the SBA and getting those up online. So really changed our focus, our impact, through the pandemic was really continuing to help businesses through this unprecedented time. But then continuing conversations with future entrepreneurs who are curious about how to start a small business. So we launched our future entrepreneur training program, and we've seen a lot of interestingly enough, a lot of women of color are with disabilities participating in our programs. And I can't say why that that that demographic specifically, has been so high, but it's been quite fascinating for me. So we've we've had that educational piece, we've created several mentoring opportunities, connecting entrepreneurs with with members of the broader business community to get some mentoring. Just an example of that we had a young African American who grew up here in the Bayview district of San Francisco who is recently just got his real estate broker's license. And he wants to be investing in properties. And this is the youngest of I believe, 11 children and connected him with a successful investor here, and he's well on his way. We've also worked with a film student from SF State and connected him with one of the producers of crip camp. Which I'm sure that you've you've experienced. So really building bridges, and helping individuals get connected to not only educational opportunities, but mentoring opportunities, helping individuals get access to capital. Early on, we got contacted by the State of California regarding small business certification. So we're in, we've been in conversation with the state of California over the past couple years, as well as many entities here in the Bay Area, about how they can diversify their supply chain by hiring individuals with disabilities. So but as you know, getting a small business certified is no small feat. So we're working with UC Berkeley now, in in, they have a program there that helps get small businesses certified. And I'm very excited about that. And we have our second annual Bay Area, disability Entrepreneurship Week, coming up in October, which runs in tandem with national disability, Employment Awareness Month. And we're going to have interactive panels, which will be online, and then we will have, we're going to visit several businesses here in the city, as well as have a networking event. And we're going to have one of our future entrepreneur trainings, hopefully, in concert with one of the Bay Area leaders in in entrepreneurship, as well.   Michael Hingson  41:47 It's early, of course, to to a large degree, because you're you're only operating the disability Business Alliance for three years. But are you seeing how do I ask this more successes than failures? Do you see that it is really taking off and that if you were to compare it with people outside of what you're doing at who start businesses, then maybe you're seeing more success because you're able to provide more proactive mentoring and so on.   Peter DeHaas  42:22 It's it's been, I feel like I recognized early on, as I said, at the launch, that there's certainly up there there. And with every conversation that I have, Michael, I recognize that the importance of what we're doing, it's unprecedented. My mind, I've had one of my advisory board members meet with the Department of Rehab here in the city and I know that there's a bridge to entrepreneurship for individuals with disabilities in terms of getting support through Dr. But it's not very well defined in their their website. If you're blind, it's there's a specific program for entrepreneurship but beyond that. So I see a lot of potential I would say the success is in the contacts that I make that people are coming out of the woodwork in the community that we are building, we are at a tipping point with our capacity building, where we are currently working with an attorney to get our own 501 C three status and build real capacity. I'd like to hire somebody within the next year. Right now I'm doing everything with the exception of some some assistance from volunteer that I have who was my assistant at Golden Gate University previously I'm doing it all myself and you know that that that that's sustainable to a point and I'm very excited about embarking on the venture of getting our own 501 C three status and taking it to the next level. So as you know these things take time and that's one of my one of my greatest mentors several years ago when I started planting seeds for this said it's going to take some time you know, the but it's the potential is there and and I would say that there's there's many more doors opening than being slammed in my face if that if that makes any sense. I most people are very excited to talk to me and there's there's plenty of work to be done.   Michael Hingson  44:37 Well, you're in a great place to do it of course as we discussed earlier because it there's there's a lot more openness to the idea of people who are different and being able to support that. But getting a 501 C three status is going to help a great deal I would think.   Peter DeHaas  44:55 Yeah, like I said, I'm very grateful to be operating under social good fun. And it's been very useful through the pilot phases. But it's time for us to, you know, it limits us to go after bigger contracts with the city, the state or the federal government or even bigger foundations. So this has been perfect for us. And it's really my journey as an entrepreneur really mirrors for everybody that I've been working with, you know what it takes, it's no small feat to really, you know, start a venture as you know, on your own. And it's really about not only expanding your network, but having lifelines that you can call when you're in a potential crisis mode. So I've enjoyed every step of the journey. And really, as my 91 year old dad would say, Peter, it's about the people. It's about the people and every relationship that I build, I really tried to nurture along and in leverage on that, you know, maybe it's me introducing that person to somebody else, or vice versa. They're introducing me to somebody, but it's, it's, it's fascinating to me about how much of this work is about telling stories and sharing stories. And yeah, I, I'm very excited about the next year in particular, to see see the next chapter of the SF DBA.   Michael Hingson  46:27 I have to say, me as well, I'm really excited to hear how this is going. And you're right, it is about the people in your 91 year old dad is absolutely correct. And as people on both sides, it's not just the individuals that you serve, because they happen to have a disability and and you're trying to work with them. But it is also the more substantial or or larger population of all the people who could help in that process by providing jobs or mentoring skills, or funding or whatever, to help bring people out and give them the opportunities to grow that clearly you're looking for. And your passion does make all the difference in that though.   47:18 Well, thank you I you know, when people talk about all the dividends, and what what's my difficulty dividend going to be investing in your, your startup, you know, there's lots of conversations here in the Bay Area. And I proudly say the dividends and investing in the disability community or hiring somebody with a disability, or allowing giving somebody the opportunity to start a small business with a disability, I'll tell you what the dividends are, there's less reliance on public assistance. And there's more money flowing into our local economies, people with disabilities want to spend their hard earned money, they don't want to be limited by whatever SSDI pays these days, 900 to $1,200 a month, they don't want to be limited by that. They want to be contributing members of our society. And many people don't know that the disability communities, are the third largest market in the world. So put that into perspective. You know, if people with disabilities are thriving, everybody is going to be thriving.   Michael Hingson  48:28 Sure. And again, one of the dividends is that if you are hiring a person with a disability, you are very, very likely hiring someone who is going to be a lot more loyal to you, and wanting to help make you more successful because they know how hard it was to get a job in the first place for them. Right. And we really need to deal with that. As I said, we interviewed on this podcast, Kirk Adams, who is the about to retire director, he maybe now has retired as the director of the American Foundation for the Blind. He's the one that talked about the fact that there are now now an increasing number of studies, talking about the whole loyalty and brand issue regarding disabilities that specifically bind blind people. But it goes across the board of the fact that if you hire someone there, they're going to be very appreciative of that. And they're going to want to do a good job. And that spiral can only go up because the better job they do, the more successful you are. And the more successful you are, the better their job will be. And the happier everyone is.   Peter DeHaas  49:38 And it's about creating a culture that that understands it and embraces it. I'm currently doing some important curriculum development for a biotech company here in the Bay Area as it relates to employees with disabilities and it's it's it's so exciting for me, this is the kind of stuff that excites me to see companies coming full circle and saying, Oh, we really need to put some more thought into this and not just have a policy in the HR department as it relates to disability accommodations, that's important too. But creating a culture that that includes disability in the DEI equation.   Michael Hingson  50:21 Right? The the inclusion has to start taking hold a lot more than it does diversity, generally speaking, as I think you pointed out, has left disabilities out of it. But they, the fact is, you can't do it if you're gonna call yourself inclusive, because you are, you're not correct. And there are a number of us who are of the opinion that we're not going to let you change the definition of inclusion to say, well, we're inclusive, we just don't do anything with disabilities, then you're not inclusive, great. can't have it both ways are gray. How can people become involved in and working in helping with the disability Business Alliance?   51:07 Well, they can go to our website@www.S F D B A  dot ORG and, and get contact us there, if they'd like to make a contribution there. If they'd like to volunteer, or, you know, at some point we're going to be, like I said, building capacity. I'm excited about the potential of hiring somebody to start and you know, over time hiring several people. So get in touch with us, and we'd love to have a conversation.   Michael Hingson  51:46 I hope that people will really be excited about it and be excited to help. Obviously, anyone listening to this, especially in the San Francisco area that is now willing to explore hiring persons and so on should get in touch with you. Yes, they can do all of that through the website.   Peter DeHaas  52:08 They can get in touch with us through the website. But in terms of me, I mean, if they set up time to chat with me, I'd be happy to chat with anybody about developing strategies around hiring individuals with disabilities as well, or, or figuring out how to make their business more inclusive.   Michael Hingson  52:30 If they want to set up a time to chat with you. How do they do that?   Peter DeHaas  52:34 They can email at info at SF DBA dot o RG just make a query that way?   Michael Hingson  52:42 And odds are you're gonna see it because you're the main guy doing it all right.   Peter DeHaas  52:47 Yep. Yeah, my volunteer gets those emails in. She forwards them to me immediately.   Michael Hingson  52:56 Well, I hope that people will do that. And that we can help make the program successful and even more so. And if there's anything at anytime that I can do and anything that I can do to help bring resources to assist you, needless to say, excited to do that as well.   Peter DeHaas  53:17 Michael, it's always a pleasure chatting with you. I learned something new every time that I talk with you and I don't see our conversation stopping here.   53:28 Hope not by no means there's always more to talk about. Well, Peter, again, thank you very much for being here. And I hope people will reach out. Go to www.sfdba.org and reach out to Peter info at sfdba.org. We'd like to hear from you. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this podcast. So feel free to email me at Michaelhi at accessible A C C E S S I B E .com. And you're also welcome to go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e  l h i n g s o n slash podcast and wherever you're listening to this, please give us a five star rating. But most of all, whether you're in the San Francisco area or not reach out to Peter, he would love to hear from you. And I'm sure there are ways that that we can help establish more relationships outside San Francisco because what Peter is doing is going to have to expand anyway right? Yes,   54:31 yes, I'd sky's the limit. I'd like to my goal is to brand SFDBA or an organization like SFDBA in Colorado. Next. I did. Some of my my work that I didn't mention in this podcast was with the Colorado cross disability coalition, one of the nation's leaders in disability accessibility kind of related topics and, and one of my greatest mentors, Julie risking is at the helm there at CCDC. And when I told her I was launching SFDBA, she said, Peter, we need something like this in Denver. So I promised her once I got my footing here that I would try to establish something in Colorado as well. But yeah, I'm excited about the possibility of one day growing beyond the Bay Area.   55:31 got to start somewhere, though. That's right. Well, Peter, again, thanks for being here. And I want to thank everyone who is listening, I want to thank you for listening to us and putting up with us for an hour. But please reach out to Peter, we really appreciate it. And we'll probably have another podcast where we get to talk more about all the progress that Peter is making. So again, Peter, thanks very much for being here. Thank you, Michael.   Michael Hingson  56:01 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this episode I talk about my experience navigating COVID (It sucks). I also discuss how the effects of COVID really had me questioning my self worth. And lastly, I share a reminder that seasons change. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thebeneficialblackman/message

In this episode I talk about my experience navigating COVID (It sucks). I also discuss how the effects of COVID really had me questioning my self worth. And lastly, I share a reminder that seasons change. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thebeneficialblackman/message

ORN Patrick Timpone show notes 9/28/22 Scheduled guest Martin Armstrong is now evacuating his home in Florida due to Hurricane Ian. The lucrative banking industry - making money by making money for a living. Imminent banking crisis starting in Europe and then spreading to the US next year. Sovereign debt crisis will explode in Europe. Promoted by the obsoletes, Patrick's new term for the elites. Too Big To Fail movie about banking-caused 2007 implosion covered over by TARP. It was not caused by subprime mortgages. Long US history of banks running things and causing turmoil. Is this the big one, the one the crashaholics have long warned is coming? Spiritual and emotional shifts going on. Communism, gender confusion, transhumanism, climate change, COVID - It's all been a lie. Is the CIA or another US agency behind the Monday's Nordstream 1 and 2 explosions? They're trying to make everything worse. NS1 and NS2 pipelines are very deep in the ocean. Sabotage probably required a submarine. Charles Nenner doesn't recommend being in equity markets until October or November. Dollar still very strong because other currencies are in worse shape. Dollar Index won't go much higher. Don't give energy to physical complaints. What we resist persists. Patrick's pain in the bladder area went away 2 months after being on an animal based diet. Temps staying up without thyroid now. Is meat the species appropriate diet for humans? The technology of X3. Building muscle with bands- the safest, quickest way to build muscle without getting sore. Never losing pressure is key. Different technology than lifting weights. Repetitively stretching a band with ever decreasing excursions until you can't move. What will currency change to? Choosing not to participate in what's coming. Hurricane Ian - catastrophic strike this am at west coast of Florida, but winds will expand to the east coast of FL. 2nd landing to come on s.e. coast of Florida on Friday. Listener trying to go carnivore, but overwhelming sugar urges on 3rd day. Drinking orange juice to satisfy those cravings. The more sugar you do, the more you want it. Listener's mother suffering with colorectal cancer. In pain and is wasting away. Try bone broth, meat, and fat. Listener not sure they can live without baked potato and pasta. They are comfort foods and wind up being a drug. Compare the feeling after eating pasta to after eating meat. Listener misses Richard Maybury shows. He's taking a break. Stanley Druckmiller – predicts hard landing by end of 2023. Coming recession or worse. Every Fed hiking cycle ends in default and bankruptcy of government. Massive QE of $30 trillion is fueling the recession. We're in deep trouble. Most severe Fed tightening since 1980. The Fed is causing the issues and they know it. Raising increase rates won't stop inflation. 11 year lows on home sales. Will the US be the Weimar Republic or Venezuela? Martin Armstrong found documents showing plans made during Clinton Administration to overthrow Russia. 2 more days on Surthrival Chaga/Reisha 20% off sale.

  Best selling author and book agent Bill Gladstone has been in the publishing industry for over thirty years. In that time, he has represented some of the biggest names in the business and has helped to shape the careers of many successful authors. Gladstone is a man who knows the ins and outs of the publishing world, and he is someone who can be trusted to get the best deal for his clients.   Find out more about Bill: https://waterside.com/   Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question some time for another hit of spiritual with your host Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode. Brandon Handley 0:42 Hey, the spiritual tip I'm on today with our special guest William Gladstone and he is the co author of the books tapping the source, the golden golden mic or the golden motorcycle gang and author of the international best selling novel The 12. Glassnote is considered an international expert on indigenous cultures and the meaning of 2012. He is also co producer of the highly acclaimed film tapping the source as a literary agent Mr. Gladstone has worked with some of the most respected and influential authors of our time, including Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra, Neale Donald Walsch and Tom Hartman. And last but not least, and of course, not not even probably the tip of the iceberg. But Master Shaw, who I recently interviewed, and that's how I found out about, you know, the guy behind the scenes. William Bill Gladstone. Thanks for being on today. Bill Gladstone 1:36 It's a pleasure. And yeah, I'm glad that you had the opportunity to interview Dr. Shah master shots. He's kind of a hidden secret right now. He's not really hidden. But you know, I've represented you know, Neale Donald Walsch deals, Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Marie Kondo. And there's a level that they have in terms of their visibility that Dr. Shah does not. And it's kind of ironic, because Dr. Shah, in some ways, is a more important spiritual teacher, what he's able to do. And I ended up I was so intrigued and worked with him now for about 15 years that I actually investigated and wrote this book, Miracle soul healer exploring a mystery. And it really is a mystery. Not only does he have the ability to heal people, but he's been able to train other people to heal people. And that, to me is like mind boggling. How does that happen? So, you know, in the 10 years since I originally wrote miracle soul healer, I've learned a lot more about Master shots. So we're re releasing the book come out in a couple of weeks, and that we've changed from exploring a mystery to documenting a legend because it's my belief that he's going to become a legend just in the way that Edgar Casey is a legend, legendary healer. What Dr. Shah has been able to do is extraordinary. And what's almost more extraordinary is that he keeps reinventing himself. It's like he started off, you know, as a as an acupuncturist. I mean, he's got degrees in medical, traditional medicine, but also Chi Gong and Tai Chi and acupuncture and herbal medicine. So he's always he's just as a very exploratory nature. He never satisfied even though he's he's always wanting to learn and develop himself. He's just a very creative human being an intelligent human being. So a few years ago, right at the beginning, when I agented, his first big best seller, he already had bestsellers before I started agent again, but the first one I did was miracle soul healer, and he included a calligraphy and you can see behind me I have a calligraphy now I was gifted one by one, which is wonderful. But at the time, it was like, Oh, now he's really gone too far. Now he's saying that this calligraphy, this piece of art, this piece of paper has healing properties. I said, No way. Anyway, you know, I got up on stage. I remember I was at a one on one author, one of one of that with Rick Fishman, who he actually introduced me to Dr. chatons, you know, when the book first came out at least 10 years ago, and, you know, I presented the book and, you know, I was a little bit, you know, I don't really know if this drawing you know, is, but the rest of it, you know, I've checked out, you know, it's really interesting. And I remember when I got off the stage, someone came up to me because we had given out some copies. And I said, I'm a something impact. And I opened the book to the page, and the energy from this is just incredible. Well, you know, I guess maybe there's something to it because I thought it was pretty far out there. But and that was really, when that happened. That's when I started, you know, because I have degrees from Harvard. You know, I published articles and, you know, scientific and my father was a chemist before he became a book publisher. So grounded skepticism, healthy skepticism. And so, but now I was intrigued. So that's when I did the original interviews and I interviewed over 100 people when I wrote miracle so healer, and there's absolutely no way you would have so much positive results, just from the placebo effect, and certainly the placebo effect. And yeah, there's something to that, but there's something actually going on. So that's why I've continued to be in contact with with Master Shah. Like, him, I also like to keep exploring and growing. So I am finally realized, even though you know, he gifted me a calligraphy, I didn't really pay much attention to it. But then recently, I came up with the idea that we should do these NF T's non fungible tokens, we should sure, you know, do one that was, you know, going to give financial abundance to people because in addition to healing, there's other blessings that are communicated through the calligraphies. And I was skeptical, but it's like, you know, it's not going to hurt anybody, if they believe it, and it works for them. Great. I'm not saying it's gonna work, but just as a collectible, because the art itself has value. So we did choose 5000 of these prints, electric prints, and we sold all that $2,000 Each generating $10 million. So that got even more of my attention. It's like, whoa, and as those you know, I think they sold like to 1500 people, because a lot of people bought two or three. Well, there were at least 600 people who like, wrote in within weeks of getting this calligraphy, my financial world has been, you know, like, evolving. And I'm like, Okay, if that's happening, I guess it's time I still don't understand exactly how it happens. But then, you know, so I'm like, Okay, this is really amazing. I get a call from Esther, she says, my new thing is, song, I have this special dowel song. I'm gonna give all my healings now through the song. And I'm like, okay, and I want you to organize the concerts. And I said, What master shot. I'm a literary agent. I don't really understand the world of music. You gotta give me a you know, we just started all these, because now we're also some of the original calligraphies, I sold one for a million dollars, I mean, big business. I said, Let me focus on these things that I understand. And I'm already doing. And he said, well, but heaven says, You can do this, you know, everybody. And I said, Well, I used to think that was just sort of like a joke. But when he says, heaven says, I know everybody, it means I will know everybody, if I don't know, I'm now the right person. For sure, he's kind of on a spiritual mission. And I mean, this is true. I mean, I don't believe it myself. But two days after he asked me to represent and find a record label for him, and I told him, Look, give me six months, I've got to focus on all these other things. My daughter who's a ghostwriter called me with a project. And it was a project related to a marketing expert, actually two marketing experts that wanted to use her to write a book. But she wanted me to something the agent to negotiate the terms and do what I do. So I got on the phone, and I met this extraordinary author who has a marketing company. Well, it turns out, she also has a record company. And it turns out that she's into, I don't even know what you call it, this non traditional music, World Music, whatever. And I said, Well, you know, I've got this other claim, why don't you go and listen to this music and tell me what you think. She writes back the next day is the most incredible music. I never had anybody like this, we want to, we want to, you know, do everything we will do the concerts. And actually the album for that is coming out in about two weeks. So now, it's not just the calligraphy it's not just the healing. It's not just the teaching. It's also music concerts. So who knows what Master shows going to do next. But I am very intrigued with all this going on. That's why I decided to go back and just update the book a little bit. Because there's no longer exploring a mystery. It's documenting a legend. I've never met a human being who's been able to pivot and be successful in so many different areas. I mean, he's like, you know, he's now a concert performer. He's mastered calligrapher. He's a Master Healer. And what actually is my greatest point of contact with him is we've been doing together for almost a year now, what he calls the power and wisdom of Dougie Jain, which is the teachings of Lauzun dowdy Jing is a book that was written over 2500 years ago, only has 82 chapters Laos, who is considered the foremost promoter, and expert on Tao, he introduced the concept of doubt to the world. And I studied philosophy at Yale. And I've always been intrigued by the world of ideas. So MasterChef asked me to host this show. And the main benefit I get is, he's taking at least an hour, sometimes two or three hours for each chapter. So it's probably going to take us two years to go through this. And it's totally free. I mean, I'm just doing it because I'm learning so much. And basically what you're learning is the way of the doubt nature's way. And the surface. That seems very simple. But these lessons, the more you hear them, and the more you truly understand them, the more profound they become. And you know, I've worked with all these great spiritual visionaries Marianne Williamson, Deepak Chopra, as I said, before, Neale Donald Walsch, and you know, they're great. But I have to say, if you want to go back to first principles, I'm becoming convinced that the Dow, the understanding of what the Dow means, particularly the way Dr. Shah interprets it, is kind of the fundamental face of all knowledge, it's really been intrigued. And so I've been learning that. So I'm very grateful to Master Chef for bringing all this to the world. And I'm also totally alive. But what's also was remarkable is, but 15 years ago, we did this film, tapping the source, and we interviewed over 100, major celebrities, authors, business leaders, billionaires. And what we learned was that the source of happiness for all of these people was very basic, it was finding a way to express gratitude every day, and finding a way to be of service to others. Well, then, push forward 10 years later, I'm studying, you know, Lao Tzu and the Tao. And what is the fundamental message from Master Sha? One, in his case, it's a little bit different. You start with forgiveness, so that my people didn't feel the need to ask for forgiveness. But Master Sha, you asked for forgiveness, then the next few things, express gratitude and be of service, my purpose of life is to serve. That's what Master Schultz presents. So I found that, wow, what I've been doing, you know, totally in what I would call the secular world, you know, just mainstream world is now sort of linking up with with Master Sha, which is admittedly, an esoteric traditions. I mean, not everyone is going to resonate, you know, with the Chinese language and the Chinese philosophy, but they really are one. And so I've really been having a lot of fun with this. And we're combining, we're starting to do these tapping the source summits. And so at the last one, we had Deepak and my good friend and client, Dr. Ervin Laszlo with Master Sha, and looking at these big questions, you know, where do we come from? Where are we going? Why are we here? What is the nature of reality? What is the nature of our universe, and it's really interesting as we as we go forward, because there is a common thread, and there is a way of raising the awareness of the average person, because it may not seem like it's such a big deal, but it's actually a very big deal. If the majority of people on our planet had a greater sense of who they really are, not just in terms of their personalities, not just in terms of their family backgrounds, but who they really are, as, for lack of a better word, spiritual beings, universal souls. When I was a bit, Brandon Handley 13:51 let me jump in here real quick. So, you know, one of the things I enjoyed in researching you was listening to an interview that you did with Jack Canfield, maybe 10 years ago, maybe 11 years ago, we talked about and just like you talked about here, you came from like a chemist, your father's a chemist, book publisher, going into this industry for yourself where even he'd mentioned to you I believe, you know, don't be a writer there's no money being a writer. And you know, you're and I can hear you I'm in the business world as well. And I can hear you rattling off numbers like you're a very your business acumen. You know, you're very focused on the business. Right. But you also you also co authored another book, is it tapping this horses? Welcome. Have it right in front of me? Yeah. Bill Gladstone 14:37 It was tapping the source. I should have brought him up, you know, show him to you. Brandon Handley 14:42 I didn't give you I didn't give you any prep on this. So Bill Gladstone 14:45 yeah, tapping the source which was Reus issued as a complete Master Key System. Tapping the source was brought to me by another one of my clients because he had become a big fan of Charles canal, Charles canals Master Key System. There's so many rumors about it, Bill Gates uses it Elon Musk, like circulated in Silicon Valley. But tapping the source was really a modern, updated version of The Master Key System. And Charles canal was the first writer who combined Eastern ideas with Western ideas. Napoleon Hill gave an owl credit for all of his work with thinking grow rich. And so Nell really was the source of information for what we now call the Human Development movement, which has been going on for about 100 years. Brandon Handley 15:38 So, and that wasn't until that was, like 1012 years ago that you tapped into that book. Were you aware of him before that? Bill Gladstone 15:47 Not at all, I had never even heard of Charles now. Your mind Brandon Handley 15:50 blown, like what it sounded like? You were just like, wow, what is this material and this is so amazing. Well, Bill Gladstone 15:55 not on this. And I have to be honest, I remember when I was very young, because, you know, it was in publishing already, I was living in New York, and I got invited to something called dare to be great. And it was, as far as I was concerned, a whole lot of hocus pocus and hype. And, you know, manifest this and envision that, you know, I just thought it was a lot of people trying to steal your money. So I've been very skeptical of this whole self help genre. Even though my father's article publishing was one of the leading publishers in self help. He also was very skeptical. So I was not that open when unkind. So Oh, I got this book, Master Key System and its depth. And the same thing, frankly, with the secret. And you know, even though a lot of my friends, like they're oversimplifying, and it's not that simple. But then when I read Charlson out, which was not as simple as a secret secret, actually had made reference to Charlson out, but I wasn't aware of who he was at the time. But the secret over simplified, Charles tau is very rigorous. That's why we had to write the book, it was 26 weeks to go through the course, in those days, you have to understand this 100 years ago, you had to pay a dime for each. So it was $2.60, which is probably like $2,000 today, but you had to complete each each lesson. And then you get the next week's lesson. And each lesson required an hour of meditation. And it was very complicated. But when I finally read the material, I understand why Napoleon Hill and others had gravitated to Charlson else, he really had found some principles. And, you know, they've been misrepresented too often. For example, the law of attraction, according to Charles now, is really the law of love. And it simply means if you're emanating energy of love, you're going to draw energy of love back doesn't mean you're going to get a one to one correspondence, you send out energy of love to someone who's, you know, in a bad mood, and he, they're not going to send you back love, they may send you back, but you know, something you don't want. But over time, if you if you if you are able to generate energetic fields of positive energy, positive energy will be drawn to you. And this is very interesting. Turning back to the master shot, because now I'm beginning to understand what happens with these calligraphies. He puts so much love into these calligraphies. It's creating a field. And so it's not Hocus Pocus, there's actually reality to what is going on here. But yes, I have a very rounded and I think my mother, my mother was very inspiration. He wanted to save the world, she really had a big heart, my father wanted to have fun, and he wanted to win. So he came up with all these ideas. And he made a lot of money doing things that nobody else had ever done in book publishing. And he had a lot of fun doing it. And he never took any of it too seriously, in terms of the actual content of the books. So I kind of have this combination. I like to have fun, and I like to make money. It's fun. And I've made a lot of money. I mean, it's really, if you look at everything we've done, it's in the billions of dollars, not that I've personally made but that I've generated for the book publishing industry, and a lot of it for my authors and a lot of it for myself and my company. So I even wrote a book called be the deal that I wrote in seven days because I also launched the very first print on demand book company, and we needed proof of concept. So the first print on demand book ever written by a solo author and have to say that because the same day that I finished my manuscript, we got hold of the Star Report The thing about Clinton at the time and the sex scandal with money. So that was actually the very first print on demand book. Mine was the first solo authored book, and we actually got an investment of $28 million from Barnes and Noble based on we now had proof of concept. So yes, I I have this wonderful combination of, from my mother, I get this sense of, you know, purpose and wanting to help others. And then for my dad, I get this feeling of, hey, let's have fun. And let's see how much money we can make and what we can do. And I think that they go together. Well, I think that when, you know, like, we changed our mission statement about 20 years ago to waterside productions exists to help authors and publishers create and distribute books that will make a better world. So that's really what our focus has been. And if you focus on creating a better world, and having fun, you're probably want to make a lot of money. If you're if you're successful in doing that. Brandon Handley 20:40 You know, absolutely. How could you not right. And, and I think that there are ways that you could not obviously, but if you take a look at to see, you know, to it's funny that you did that project with Charles Sinawe, I did a project myself on that on that same book, right? I did, I created an audio, where I put like, isochronic tones and like bio rhythms and like the sounds of nature, all behind the reading of the book, so that, you know, somebody could listen to it in that same way, right? And just kind of get the content and I released it in the same way that he released it, like in a weekly format, right? Because the way that it was originally meant to be consumed was just like our online courses today. Right? It's just, that's what he was doing back then. So I thought that that was pretty interesting. But you know, what you're doing whether or not you know it, or knew it at the time was you were being you were already being of service. And I think that I think that um, you know, Wallace D wattles also talks about this, which is not the guy, but Napoleon Hill talks about how if you're if you're doing these whether or not you know, you're using the law of attraction, like your friends, Jack Canfield, and all these other people are gonna say, you're, you're, you're using it, right? So you're being of service, you're helping people get access to some of these books, you may not already believe half of the stuff that you're seeing in here, like, whatever. And you brought up something really, really, really important, in my opinion, is you went to this, you went to this seminar, called dare to be great. And you're like, are these guys selling snake oil? Right, is basically what you're saying. But here you are selling calligraphy? Yeah, right. What has changed, I think inherently and you because again, the deck the Jack Canfield audio, you talked about you said you weren't that into personal development at that time, and in this space so much. But seems though, over these past 10 years, maybe maybe maybe longer, that you've kind of fell into the space, and you're believing more like you're talking about emanating this love, and it's gonna come Bill Gladstone 22:41 back, basically, it's seeing the results, seeing that it works. I mean, when I went to that dare to be great seminar, I mean, the guys, I mean, they look like used car salesmen, I just didn't get a good vibe from them. And I don't know, whatever happened with that organization, you know, I didn't list but you know, it's kind of like any of these. And, you know, Scientology, I think is the same. I mean, I hesitate, because you got to watch out for these organizations that have come after negatives. But sure, they're really self based organizations, they're not real, that they claim to be of service to others. But if you go behind the scenes, you find out that's not really the case. So you do have to be careful. And exercise caution. Butcher, when you do find an organization like Master Chavez, and I've done all the research, I mean, I've met all the people. That's why I wrote the book. I mean, it's really selfless. I mean, he's not, he doesn't need money, he doesn't care about money for himself, yes, his organization to grow, and he does care about having the biggest impact. Well, you know, what is money? Money is energy. If you don't have it, you're not gonna grow. But yes, it's more seeing the results. I mean, I've personally spoken and met with dozens, really hundreds of people whose lives have been significantly improved, because of either the calligraphies, or the teachings of master shots. So you know, I've seen the results. And you know, he's not a perfect human being I'm sure he's had his failures. And, you know, he's very cautious to say, I'm not guaranteeing anything for everybody. And there's one thing about Dr. Shah that, you know, I'm, I was super skeptical of because it was too easy. explanation why things wouldn't work, which is, in the end, it's all about karma. And if you have bad karma, I can't help you. I mean, I can't help you. But I can totally help you because you we each have our karma and our path. And there is truth to that. But I was skeptical because well, that's too easy. If it doesn't work. It's all on the patient. So, you know, but then, as I've dealt more and more master shot, I've seen that he is authentic and that his system And does work. And I'm still on the fence. I just had this conversation with master shot a few days ago about the nature of karma because as I become more immersed in, in, in Lao Tzu and the DAT karma exists according to master shot at the level of the human experience of the, the world of things, we have the world of nothingness in the world of things. And I've always been sort of more drawn philosophically to the world of nothing is the world that includes nothing is and the world of things. And in the world of nothing is obviously there's no karma. And in terms of my personal experience with karma, I have a very different view. I don't actually believe there's time or space. In the real universe, the universe we experience obviously has time and space. So in that limited universe, which is really a universe of illusion, yes, there's karma. But ultimately, there's not even that there's there's there's a universal, energetic connection, to all of existence. And at that very, very deep level. There's, there is no karma there is no, there is no judgment of any kind. This is what allows and teaches the doubt, which is the source of the source. And we can't even I mean, like we think of the the source. And it allows you even said, the Dow that I described in my teachings is not the real doubt. And it's the same thing. We as human beings can't even contemplate what the true essence of all existence is. It's beyond comprehension. But we have good approximations. And we can learn a lot by aspiring to be aligned with the nature of existence itself. And that's really all that all the spiritual teachers are saying, when you say Be of service will be of service to whom? Well, you're really ultimately being of service to the energy of existence itself. And the energy of existence is magnificent. It's everything, even what we consider evil, is it still energy, and all existences is a play of energy. And within each realm, there is good and evil. And it's very important to sort of raise our vibration so that we experienced the highest possible reality we can. But ultimately, it's all play the way I explain it to people. If you have kids, you probably have gone to some little league games, and Little League is great right now their Little League World Series, I actually prefer watching that over major league baseball. Anyway, you see these kids, and you know, they're playing, and they're playing their hearts out. And during the game, nothing matters except the game, and you play by the rules of the game. But guess what it says the game is over. It was just a little league game, it really didn't matter at all? Well, at a very big level. That's our own experience as human beings, we're playing a game, and it matters, it matters a lot. You know, whether you are treating people well, whether you have children, your grandchildren, you have someone that you love that loves you, all those things are really important. But when you leave this planet, when you leave your human form, that was nice, but it represented less than less than a finger of your existence. So you know, if you can start having that perspective, and I think even somebody like Putin would think twice about murdering all the people that he's murdering, I mean, it's going to catch up in a different universe, perhaps. But you know, if we could combine this larger sense of how we are all individual, that we're also all one, we're all interconnected, we're all part of the same energy flow. I think we we'd have a much better world. Brandon Handley 28:48 Like, did you see yourself like in this space? 1015 years ago? Could you imagine yourself talking like this? Bill Gladstone 28:57 I don't know, if I didn't give it any thought one way or the other. It doesn't surprise me. I mean, cuz I've always had, as I said, because of my mother. I always had this interest in sort of the non material. Also, one of the reasons, you know, I probably evolved this way. And I covered this a little bit in the film, tapping the sources. When I was 15, I had a near death experience. And I was I was gone. I mean, it was an interesting experience. But I was I was on my way to wherever it is, you know, I was headed, and it wasn't on this planet. And I was not forced to leave. I was, you know, sort of given a choice. And, frankly, I mean, I'll tell the story because it's kind of interesting. So I was 15 years old, and I had the flu. And I had a really bad case of the flu kind of thing. COVID It wasn't good. And those days we actually had a family physician, and he would make house calls. But he said it was February and I was living in Westchester County and it was kind of snowy and you know traveled was not that easy. And he said, Look, I'm really busy. I can't make house calls. But you know, I've got other patients who've come down with this flu. I've got something that I think will help if you can bring Bill in. So my mom drove me over. And, you know, the doctor looked at me said, Yep, I think you've got the symptoms here. I'm gonna give you the shot. This should work. He gave me the shot. He said, I'll be right back in a minute. And next thing, my memories, I'm gone. I'm like in bliss. And I'm, my bliss is interrupted, because I hear this loud voice. And I said, Oh, what's that lead voice? Oh, that man. That man's very upset. Oh, that man's wearing a white coat. Oh, that man must be a doctor. Why is he upset? Oh, he's upset because that body on the floor is not responding. Oh, that's my body, I better get back into that body. So the doctor won't be upset. But there was no idea that I better get back in my body because I'm going to be dead. It didn't occur to me. And it didn't matter to me. And having had that experience, which at the time was not that common and very little was known about near death experiences. Moody had not even written his first book on afterlife. So I was actually discouraged mostly by my father, but also even by my mother, don't talk about this. Nobody wants to hear you're valedictorian of your school. Everybody thinks, you know, you do all the sports your captain, a couple of sports team, this isn't gonna get you very far talking about this kind of stuff. Just stick stick to your normal life. It's an interesting experience you had my dad is the chemists was, Oh, you didn't have any oxygen. It was all hallucination. You know, don't take any of it too seriously. Well, it took me about 20 years when I started uncovering that other people had had similar experiences that I realized, no, my dad was wrong. In this case, my experience was authentic. And so because of that experience, I've always been kind of aware that there's a lot more going on here than just what meets the eye. Brandon Handley 32:01 I got it. What do you mean? And so how do you feel like you became this lightning rod or catalyst for so many of these prominent authors? Like how did you find yourself in that space? Well, it's very hidden, because Bill Gladstone 32:15 I certainly didn't set out to do this. I was the leading agent in the world for books about technology. We, even before we did that the dummies series, we had had 500 best selling books, we represented over 25% of all the best sellers at the time when computers first evolved. And that happened really, through a relationship I had with Andy Kay, the founder of nonlinear systems, which became K Pro computer. So I was given access to all these computer documentation writers, so we started representing them. And overnight, we became the leading source of books about technology. But like many things, we did the very first books on the internet and everything on the supercomputers, we created the very source of our demise. Because the internet made it unnecessary to buy a book. I mean, not for everybody, but we used to sell, oh, I don't know, in a single year, 5 million copies of Windows for Dummies, for example. Now we still sell it but you know, I think it's down to like 100 200,000 copies, which is not insignificant, but compared to 5 million that so when you know in our business was was booming, and you know, we were doing great business, but then when the internet crashed and the need for these books also fade because there wasn't as much innovation. I mean, there's you know, like, Okay, now with that Twitter and me, there's still things happening. But compared to the boom of the late 80s, early 90s, where you had a new computer, a new software program, and these things, you know, just took the world by storm, you actually had more space in a Barnes and Noble dedicated to computer books than to fiction. You had an entire wall, it looks anyway. So we have this great success. And then it started to go down. And I had one call when the very first books I'd ever aged. It was the Sphinx in the rainbow by David Lai. And David was an extraordinary human being he just passed recently in his 90s. And I actually signed the book to publish it when I was editor in chief for Harcourt Brace Yovanovitch here in San Diego, but I left her court to create waterside productions. And they canceled the book because they have an editor who even understood the book because this book was way ahead of its time. It was explaining the nature of the ability to predict the future based on hologram sick concept of the universe. And also why sometimes a prediction would be wrong. Anyway, it was it was too sophisticated for anyone left it hardcore. So I got a call from Dave and he says what do I do and I say oh Don't worry, I know people in New York and other places. I'll I'll do some aging on the side because I actually sit at Waterside productions to be a film company, not a literary agency. So that was really what got me into the agent in the first place. And I did sell that book whose first book I ever sold. I actually sold it Shambala, which, interesting. They then that book went out of print 20 years later, and David revised the book and we sold it to enter tradition. So it's still in print with a new title and arrow through time. But the reason I mentioned this is okay, so after David, I got involved with all the computers, I turned down people, including Tony Robbins, because too much time to deal with them compared to what I could do. I could sell 10 books on computers, one of which would sell at least a million copies in a day. And you know, Tony, I love Tony and we met. But you know, he needed a lot of hand holding that time and guidance. And I was like, Tony, just not really worth my time. So yeah, I don't regret it, you know, would have been worth my time as it turned out, but you know, who could have predicted it? In any event? Yeah, I've turned that I've made bigger mistakes. I turned down Jeff Bezos, I could have been one of the seed investors of Amazon, back down because the business plan didn't make any sense to me. So I've made my mistakes. I don't know what's interesting. But back to David Loy. So David calls me up. And it's just the right time. He says, I've got this friend. His name is Dr. Ervin Laszlo and he's written about 30 books, but none of them have sold more than 5000 copies. And I think you'd really enjoy working with him and he needs a good agent. So that's how I got connected with Irving. And Ervin was already at that time considered the leading systems theorist in the world, he had studied Alfred North Whitehead, and he really had, you know, he was just amazing. He had created this organization called the club of Budapest because he was also a naturally gifted concert pianist. He was a member of the Club of Rome. And the Club of Rome said nobody's paying attention, because they, this is back in 1972, the limits of growth really was the precursor to warnings about global warming, and everything else. But nobody was paying attention. So they said, you know, they seem to pay attention to celebrities, you're kind of a celebrity, you know, create a writers and poets organization. And he did and you had people like, yo, yo, LA and Peter Gabriel, and the Dalai Lama, anyways, credible organization. So I met with our event, and we became good friends, and I was able to, it actually was a lot of work more work than probably any book I've been involved with he because he was a scientist. And he wrote this book, which eventually became the Akashic science in the Akashic field actually, blanking on the title, the exact title, but we ended up having I rewrote the book myself, it was only 120 pages. And then I got the editor who had worked with Deepak Chopra, science and the Akashic field was a final title. And I got the editor who had worked with Hawking and Brief History of Time, and then he edited it after I rewrote it. Anyway, it took two years, and the books only about 160 pages. Because what we had to do is we had to take these very complex concepts and get them down to a level where ordinary people could understand them. And what was fascinating was, Dr. Laszlo was showing how new scientific concepts parallel, ancient intuitive wisdom about the nature of reality, the Akashic field, if people don't know about the Akashic records, it's the belief that everything that's ever happened is stored the information is stored. And the reality that modern science is now showing is that that's probably the case. It's not a superstition, everything does exist in successful anyway. So I represented Irving and once I represented Ervin that sort of opened the box, and I had actually sold a book to Neale Donald Walsch because he had his own imprint and Hampton Roads, but I hadn't representative but once I did Urban's book, it just opened the door, and then all these people started coming to me, and this business is very small. If you represent two or three of them, you know, Eckhart came to me, and that's a wonderful story of how all that happens. But when you have two or three of these big superstars, everybody thinks you're a genius and you have the magic touch. So they all just come to you. And because I've always been accessible, and very honest, I mean, one of the things that's remarkable is my father because I work for his company. I remember after the first week, he looked at me and he said, You may be too honest for this business. You know, publishing just have a lot of hype all media does. I actually know there's a lot of hyperbole will be kind of not outright deception. So and I've just never been, you know, I I don't know just my nature. I I can't lie, I just, you know, I have to be who I am. And I have told you. So, you know, that's very attractive, because, you know, you want to be able to trust your agent. So sure, that's, that's one of the reasons I think, you know, we've been so successful. I've actually never solicited a client. All of my clients have come through referrals. So, you know, interesting, it's just, you know, and but back to your idea of the energy. Yeah, there's kind of an energy field. I think that calligraphy helps actually, I think, to create the the vortex, but I've always had it I mentioned this semester, you're shocked because he like, you know, well, why don't you share that, you know, some of your success comes from all these calligraphies. And things I said, Well, that's true. But you know, I want to be honest, I've always had this success, actually what the calligraphies are doing for me more than that, is allowing me to enjoy the success at a higher level. Because I do have what I did, I think I've gotten a little better at it very impulsive side, where I've thrown money at things, very foolishly I've given people I shouldn't have given them and being more respectful. And I think part of it is because of my interactions with master shot and the field that I think he continues to help create. But yeah, there's kind of a vortex of energy right here in my little office, where I don't have to do anything, I just wake up every morning and out of the blue and pretty good right now it's sort of intensified, I have had at least six billionaires contacting me in the last year, all from either want us to age them or publish them. And, you know, you can't invent stuff like this. It just it's kind of miraculous, to listen Brandon Handley 41:41 to another Tibetan Buddhism book. I forget the Masters name, but he has his line. It sounds kind of like your life at this point in time, right? I have everything in the world comes to me. Right? That's kind of what he says. And there you are. Right, you are that vortex the energy is coming back into you. And I love it. What's bill? What's next for you? Your What are your thoughts? What do you where do you see, Bill Gladstone 42:05 I actually see, what do you know, my main focus, you know, I maintain my health, you know, enjoy my, my kids and my grandkids? And, you know, try to give back. So how do I get back, it's what I do best. So yeah, we're just doing everything at a higher level, we're starting to do these big concerts for Masters shot, I think we're going to reach a lot of people through those. We're going to do calligraphy, exhibitions, I think we'll reach a lot of people through that, we'll continue to do our NF T's non fungible tokens for other authors, I just signed up Napoleon Hill Foundation to do some NF T's and working with Mark watts, son of Alan Watts to do some NF T's. They're interesting. And some of these billionaire clients that are coming to me, I've been a big champion of heart mass. And so they have, they have a new initiative, and there may be one level of it, which also includes NF T's which are able to measure your individual contribution to creating global coherence award you in some way, for positive behavior that leads to coherence. I do think that coherence and raising human awareness is kind of the most important contribution that I can make. And I think that I'm in a position where more and more things are coming together, I can envision sort of like the equivalent of you know, Live Aid concerts, you know, beyond just semester shot, just major healing concerts that raise awareness, and that, you know, make a positive contribution. I also think that, you know, there's a reason, I mean, some of these billionaires have called me up and said, You know, I had a reading, they have their own spiritual paths and my spiritual, some of them that have basically said that I was predestined to appear in their lives, and we're supposed to do something together. And none of us know exactly what we're supposed to do. But there's a number of things that I can envision. And I just say, you know, it's sort of like, I always go back to the movie of the young man, Karate Kid, wax on wax off, and you know, then eventually, you get into the main stage. And despite everything I've done, I really think most of what I've done is kind of wax on wax off. It's not really the main event. And I kind of feel that I'm still not quite on the main stage yet. But that's coming very soon. And you know, we have a number of things we want to do we want to reissue the type of the source film, you want to interview, more. Spirit wasn't Brandon Handley 44:36 able to get that on and wasn't able to want to watch it really quick. And I wasn't able to find it on Amazon Prime. Bill Gladstone 44:41 Well, because we've taken it down temporarily because we re edited it out it, just send me an email after this and I'll get it out to you and you'll love it. It's really, I mean, I watched it after 10 years and mostly is due to my wife's production and editing. But it's really I mean but it's it's fantastic. It's just, it's so inspiring. And so wise, there's so much wisdom. It's the kind of thing you could watch five or six times, and you'll learn something new every time. But yeah, I see that happening. I see interviewing more, and just getting more visibility for the kinds of things that I have been doing and being more. That's why I'm doing the show with you. I mean, I don't need it. And I don't seek it. I don't not enjoy it. But it's not, it's not necessary for me to be, you know, you know, I did all that in my 20s. But if it's going to serve, I'm very happy to do I mean, I was on the Today Show I was on, you know, I've done a lot. You know, I've done a lot that, you know, most people and myself included when I was very young, it was like, oh, boy, that would be the pinnacle of this and the pinnacle. And I'm in a nice place where, yeah, I mean, happy, you know, to be on Oprah or something like that, but I've never really thought it and, you know, despite my ability to sort of speak and be friendly, kind of very happy on my own. Just, you know, I wouldn't say I'm an introvert, but you know, I don't need a lot of outside. Recognition. It's never been something that was important to me. Brandon Handley 46:16 Sure. No, that's important, too. So I mean, you you've played, you played a major role. I think in the spiritual evolution of so many people, and not a lot of people know that you've played that role, which I think is it's pretty, it's pretty neat. And again, it goes back to you have been of service all these years, so many people, they just may not know you directly. And that's what I thought. Bill Gladstone 46:39 It's very interesting. You say that, because one of my very closest friends passed just a few months ago, Michael, guys. And about 10 years ago, I was going through, you know, we all have challenges. And I don't know, there's some things that were going wrong. And I actually was feeling like a failure. I actually was. And I remember Mike and I have known each other. I actually started waterside in his office, you know, 40 years ago, 40 plus, and he just said, Bill, you've helped so many people, just with the computer books, do you realize how many millions of people, hundreds of millions of people have benefited from what you've done, that was really a wake up call. And it really got me through that little bad stretch. It was like, Okay, I'm not a complete failure. I've done something of value. But yeah, it's interesting. We just did a class on the Dow with Lao Tzu and the greatest leader is the leader that no one even recognizes. The greatest leader doesn't even get recognition. The next level of great leader, yeah, they get a lot of admiration and praise, but the greatest leader leads in such a way that no one even knows, he or she is the leader, Brandon Handley 47:50 Will. Again, you, like you said you didn't have to take this time. And I definitely appreciate you being on here today. You are rereleasing Master Sha book and the power of the Dow. Yeah. Bill Gladstone 48:04 This is really something if you've never heard of Dr. Master shots, this new edition, this is just a mock up of the cover. It's really worth reading. I mean, it's a fun read. I've gotten a lot of positive feedback. And it's done is the story. It's not, you know, it's like how I met him and interviews with a lot of different people. But I think it really will open people's eyes. And I really do feel that he's not received to date, the kind of visibility that someone of that caliber and have that ability to give deserve. So yeah, of everything for this interview. That would be the one thing I would hope your fans pick up on. But yeah, it's happened to source the movie. You can go back, you know, Amazon is still this was my most successful book, The 12. It's really, you know, it's all over. Brandon Handley 48:50 I remember seeing that I remember seeing that cover quite a bit, especially Bill Gladstone 48:55 this book we published to a major publisher, and we got it into the airports and you know, it really, we can say it's close to getting the movie deal done. And that wasn't millions, and it could still happen. I've actually figured out a way to do it. But yeah, though, if you want to have a really good read, and understand that the Mayan calendar is real. And it never predicted the end of the physical universe. It predicted the end of the energetic universe, and we're actually in a new energy every 26,000 years, there's a new energetic field. And think of a sunset. If you're unless you're looking at the sun when it sets. You don't really know the difference between 10 seconds before sunset, and 10 seconds after. When you're at the scale of 26,000 years. 10 years is like 10 seconds. So we are in a new era is happening. You can see it in a lot of different ways. The fact that the world seems worse right now, doesn't necessarily mean that we're not actually entered In a better era, whether it evolves in the way that it's intended to or not, it's really up to each and every one of us. Each and every one of us has a role to play. Even if it's just at the level of your thoughts, thoughts do create events. And that's why I'm interested in ideas of global resonance. And I'm interested in being on shows like this. Because if you're full of negative thoughts, you're going to draw negativity. If you're full of positive thoughts, you're going to attract positive energy. So that I think is absolutely demonstrated. And so anything that I can do to help people sort of reframe their personal existences in a more positive way, I'm delighted to do so. Brandon Handley 50:46 Thank you so much. But where can people find out more about what it is you're doing? Where would you like people to go? Bill Gladstone 50:51 Oh, my gosh, well, the best is, I guess, just WWE waterside.com. I am not into self promotion. So I don't really know. I mean, yeah, all the people that I work with it they probably think Bill you're getting this tends to promote what we're doing. I didn't do it. So maybe they will send you afterwards and you can put up on the screen for sure website. I probably shouldn't reveal this. But I even though I'm a champion, while the technology I don't use it, I still have a flip phone. I don't I've never searched the web. I don't use I don't use the modern technology, people that work for me do. But I really, you know, if I could, you know, I'm very happy sort of living in the old 20th century. Having actual lunches with people COVID has been tough on me on that business has actually been better than ever because everybody was stuck at home and they were all reading and writing. So you know, but yeah, I miss I miss the human interaction. And technology in May is useful. And you know, I'm so grateful that we can do this zoom call. This is close to personal, but it's not the same as face to face meeting so Brandon Handley 51:59 I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. So I will share out whatever you're able to share with the audience bill and again, thanks for being on today. Bill Gladstone 52:06 It was a pleasure. Thank you. Yes, sir. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

00:00 Just The Tip - Do what you can to avoid spreading it01:00 Theme Song by Kye - I know we got to do something02:00 Catching two moving targets - Dan is back from abroad05:00 What is a big difference between here and there - TOM investing in Public Transportation - walking is a thing! - What if the train salesman was better than Henry Ford?10:00 Dan and Jeffrey talk Monkey Pox - #BigBrainPod15:00 Why did the case count jump - More test5ing more info - Stigmatizing doesn't vaccinate - How it's transmitted and who should be concerned - It came from Moneys - We need buy in20:00 Is Monkey Pox disfiguring? - How doe it present - Lethal? - How is it spreading? - Testing is the big black light - Jumps in curve are cause by the known or unknown - The response?25:00 Contact tracing won't work at even this stage - Beyond the ring - When the CDC can't see them - Hotel room black-lighting30:00 The fundamental failure in case investigation - Time lapseWhat does vaccine production look like in real terms? 35:00 How do we learn to learn - What drives an academic?  40:00 Show that educating matters and teach kids to educate45:00 Is there anything about the new COVID we need to worry about - Apathy - In the numbers with Dan - Hospital beds 50:00 More infections are coming - Death rates are climbing Monkey pox is not like COVID - It's not an MNRA thing - Lets test55:00 Why we can't copy/paste our way out of just any pandemicFoods for mental health - The muffins are the bomb - ProteinPublic Access America Sunday A.M #LiveStream Noon Eastern 9 A.M Pacific 11 A.M Centralhttps://youtu.be/PgQ38hm8_EsApple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/public-access-america/id1118000423?i=1000515737702@Spotifyhttps://open.spotify.com/episode/589U8kzclmVd3Ny3Dyh3t2?si=q5AWhmzSRX23_AL4mI8Jpg@Stitcherhttps://www.stitcher.com/show/public-access-america@RadioPublichttps://radiopublic.com/public-access-america-WPD3XR@AmazonMusichttps://music.amazon.com/podcasts/36eeac72-@RedCirclehttps://redcircle.com/shows/public-access-americaSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/public-access-america/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Even though we are all tired of the Covid 19 pandemic, the pandemic is not through with us. In fact, the new variant BA.5 is so contagious that it is evading our immunity. The good news is that Vaccines and Boosters are helping to reduce the severity of Covid infections and that wearing N95 masks can still protect us from catching and spreading this virus.There are serious potential health consequences of getting infected with Covid:*It can affect multiple organs and systems*It resolves in some but remains persistent in others*It can be very debilitating*Its pathology is still not totally understood*You can get infected with Covid multiple times* People are dying from Covid#stopthespread#getvaccinated#wearamask#protectothers#gentecare#healthcareuntold@gmail.com#californiahealthfoundation  

--On the Show: --Gary Stevenson, inequality economist and former interest rates trader, joins David to discuss why the wealth gap is bad for the economy and how to actually reduce inequality --Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas' wife, Ginny Thomas, is directly implicated in the January 6 Trump riots after emails leak showing her corresponding with Trump lawyer John Eastman --Mehmet Oz and Doug Mastriano, the two Trump-endorsed Republican candidates in Pennsylvania, are both losing to Democrats in the latest polling --Republican Congressman Barry Loudermilk is implicated in giving future January 6 rioters a tour of the Capitol, which he denies, and he gives a very strange interview to Fox News' Laura Ingraham pleading his case --Republican Congressman Ronny Jackson, who is also Donald Trump's former doctor, gleefully tweets about Dr. Anthony Fauci having COVID --It is revealed that Trump-endorsed Republican Senate candidate Herschel Walker, who criticizes absentee fathers, has multiple children that he doesn't see --Rudy Giuliani quietly deletes tweets claiming that he was not drunk on election night 2020 --The Eggman leaves a voicemail telling wild stories of his time in prison --On the Bonus Show: 29 Arizona lawmakers received emails messages from Ginni Thomas, scientists say they are closer than ever to cancer vaccine, Monkeypox cases keep rising as CDC issues new guidance, much more...

In this episode, President and CEO of Sports and Spine Physical Therapy, Inc., Leon Anderson III, PT, MOMT, talks about AAPT. Today, Leon talks about the history of AAPT, working with his father, and AAPT's networking opportunities. Hear about AAPT's mission, encouraging minority students, and clinical research related to health conditions found within minority communities, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We are still less than 3% of the profession.” “If you can expose a child and broaden their horizons, it gives them more options of what they can do and what they can be when they're older.” “Just being associated with this network affords you such a wide array of opportunities and possibilities.” “We're all connected, and we all need one another at some point.” “You won't know what hits you until it hits you.”   More about Leon Anderson Leon R. Anderson III, is a native of Cleveland, Ohio. He graduated from The Ohio State University Fisher School of Business with a Bachelor of Science degree in Management Information Systems. His first job was as a Systems Analyst/Summer Intern for his fathers company Centers for Rehabilitation, Inc. There he discovered a passion for patient care. Subsequently, he pursued a degree in Physical Therapy at the University of Connecticut. After graduating, Leon was selected for a two year manual therapy residency program earning a masters degree in Orthopedic Manual Therapy from the Ola Grimsby Institute.   Leon is president and CEO of Sports and Spine Physical Therapy, Inc. (SSPT) The company operates three clinics in the greater Cleveland area and one in Charlotte, NC. Leon was inspired by his pioneering father Leon Anderson Jr. who was considered a vanguard of the profession for over 40 years. SSPT's company culture and core values of providing high quality rehabilitation services are a direct result of Leon's life long tutelage by his father.   Leon is a charter member of the American Academy of Physical Therapy. He served as a Subject Matter Expert for the American Physical Therapy Association's Orthopedic Clinical Specialist Exam. He also served as an on-site reviewer of the Commission on Accreditation in Physical Therapy Education. (The accreditation agency for entry-level physical therapist and physical therapist assistant programs in the US and UK).   Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, AAPT, Healthcare, Impact, Research, Opportunities, Mentorship, Equality, Connections, Education,   To learn more, follow Leon at: Website:          www.SportSpine.com                         https://www.aaptnet.org Twitter:            @LA3OSUCONN Instagram:       @osuconn   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.   00:35 Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And today's episode is brought to you by Net Health. So when it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and referrals, Net Health Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found chosen and get those five star reviews. Right now if you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic whim. They will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about its new integration, head over to net health.com forward slash Li TZY to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit today. Now on to today's episode Dr. Jenna cantor. Cantor is back and being the host with the most for this episode. And we are happy to welcome Leon Anderson the third he is a native of Cleveland, Ohio. He graduated from The Ohio State University's Fisher School of Business with a Bachelor of Science degree in Management Information Systems. His first job was a systems analyst summer intern for his father's company centers for rehabilitation. There he discovered a passion for patient care. Subsequently, he pursued a degree in physical therapy at the University of Connecticut. After graduating, he was selected for a two year manual therapy residency program earning a master's degree in orthopedic manual therapy from the OLA Grimsby Institute. Leon is President and CEO of sports and spine physical therapy. The company operates three clinics in the Greater Cleveland area and one in Charlotte, North Carolina. He was inspired by his pioneering father, Leon Anderson Jr, who was considered a vanguard of the profession for over 40 years. SSP tees company, culture and core values of providing high quality rehabilitation services are a direct result of Leon's lifelong tutelage by his father. He is a charter member of the American Academy of physical therapy. He serves as a subject matter expert for the American Physical Therapy Association's orthopedic clinical specialists specialist exam. He also serves as an onsite reviewer of the Commission on Accreditation, physical therapy, education. So today, they talk about a PT so the history of AAPT networking opportunities and how that branch of our profession that organization within our profession profession came about so big thank you to Leon and Jenna and everyone enjoyed today's episode.   03:15 Hello, Jenna Cantor here with healthy, wealthy and smart I am super excited and honored to be here with the Leon Anderson, who is a major leader in the physical therapy community. He is the president and CEO of sports and spine physical therapy and is also a charter member of AAA, PT, the American Academy of physical therapy. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on Leon.   03:42 Welcome. It's good to be here. Thank you, Jennifer offering this opportunity.   03:46 Oh my gosh, I've just And it's funny, right people, we still we came on, I learned that you were just in Barbados, and you have a bunch of patients there and you were vacationing, that's incredible, you are living a life. There's so many opportunities and you're living that right now. I love it.   04:03 Absolutely. There are opportunities all across the world when it comes to physiotherapy. It's known as physiotherapy in most parts of the world, and physical therapy here in the United States. But just in the islands, you know, there's just a huge huge opportunity to bring the kinds of things that we do here to that particular population, because of the all the different technologies and nuances and things that we have, you know, that we have here. So, I was in addition to enjoying the beach in the sand, I was also enjoying given our advice on how to become a more functional individual, and whatever Island or whatever society or community that you live in.   04:42 I love that. Thank you. Thank you for your service series. That's incredible. I love that. I wanted to bring you on today to actually talk about a PT specifically talk about the history how it became to be in everything So I would love to just start with your perspective specifically, and how it came into your life.   05:09 Well, I grew up with, you can say occupational inheritance. My father was the 16th person in Ohio to be licensed as a physical therapist. He was a vanguard in our profession. He held many, many, I guess positions, if you would say, locally, nationally, even internationally, he was one of the first African Americans to be on the board of directors for the AAPT. In fact, there is a, a room at our headquarters in Alexandria. That is the Black Heritage Room, and it's named after my father and one of his protegees, who's also my mentor, the late Dr. Linda Woodruff, who was just an amazing, amazing mentor, and my father, Leon Anderson, Jr. and since I'm the third, but if you rewind back to when he got started, a PT that started mainly the the PTS of color that were involved in the APTA just didn't feel that their needs were being met, you know, as it relates to our communities. And so there are a couple of different little groups, like blacks interested in physical therapy or charm, I can't remember right now exactly what the term acronym is, maybe I'll think about that. But there are different groups that they would meet at the eight PTA annual conferences. And at some point, I think it was 1989. It was at 1989. In September, in Chicago, about 90 individuals met and I was actually a student, myself, and also donna, donna, it was not a fun doll, then. Now it was done in green Howard, that we were both students at the time. And now these individuals got together and they decided they wanted to do something that was going to be specific for the African American community and meet the needs of those communities that are disadvantaged and poor. And so that's where, you know, it was born out of and we have so many, I mean, just a plethora of talented African American PTS, in academia, in private practice, in the hospital setting, and, you know, in the military, just in all of the different different settings, and very accomplished, very accomplished ones also, I mean, it's just amazing. The BB Clemens, the, I mean, the mayor McLeod's, the Robert Babs, there's just so many that so many people who, who contributed so much to this organization early on, and we've done just many, many, many things to help students and then help our community. So that's, you know, in I hate the Babylon, but that is a kind of how we were born born out of a need, that needs weren't being met by the large the large organization, the APTA.   08:08 Oh, my gosh, this is a nerdy question. Okay. The meeting was in Chicago, was it over pizza? You know,   08:17 believe it or not see. So once again, we have such an accomplished set of founders. It was at like a, a Hilton, or a Sheraton, a Sheraton Hotel, where we all met. And, you know, they used Robert's Rules of orders, it was extremely, extremely organized. But remember, for years prior, there were these little interest groups that would meet over pizza and over coffee and over tea and you know, different things for many years, at the different organizational meetings, whether it be the annual meeting, or the combined section, or what have you. So at that meeting, we actually they actually established, you know, a skeleton of what our current bylaws are for the AAPT right now, so it was a very, very, very industrial meeting. And productive meeting over that weekend back in September 1989.   09:12 Wow, that is so cool. I love it. It really was from the ground up. It just organically. It happened so organically. And it was a major need and it just grew. I love that. That is so cool. And your legacy. Oh, you probably carry it. That was so much pride. I love that for you with getting involved. So your dad's involved. Did you feel pressure at the beginning? Like how did that happen? Because your dad is just so prestigious? And is it doing so many things for the profession? How was that for you?   09:47 Well, believe it or not, my first degree is actually in computer science at a computer science degree from The Ohio State University. And what I found was that by my junior year I was doing some statistics statistical analysis where my father during the summertime didn't do my summer off. And I was at a, a facility for the mentally and physically challenged. And while I was, you know, doing fixing the computers and trying to network computers and things, I also was a transportation aide. And I will transfer the patients from their cottages, to the main Physical Therapy Center. And I found that I fell in love with patient care. Although I'm the nerdy, mathematical computer guy and logical guy in my head, I found it to be extremely satisfaction, I found a lot of satisfaction, I should say, in interacting with these patients. And that's why I fell in love with this therapy, my junior year when I was at Ohio State. So I decided I wasn't going to just throw those three years away, I went ahead and finished out my, my, my career there ha state. And luckily, because my parents said they were not going to pay for a second education, I had to do it on my own. Luckily, I got a scholarship and academic and leadership scholarship because I went to our house State, I was on a board of this organization, students together against apartheid. And I was a peer counselor, I won the black leadership award my senior year. So with those along with my GPA, I was eligible for a scholarship. And I ended up at University of Connecticut, you know, on scholarship, so that worked out great, I wouldn't say that I felt pressure, it's my father just wanted to always want me to do whatever I was I was good at and, and to be happy, and to whatever I did wanted me to be the best at what I did, and to strive for excellence. But once again, I fell in love with patient care that that that summer 19, I think was 1985. And I really haven't looked back,   11:47 I want to get into the mission statement of a PT, I'm going to read them in sections because so that way it can be discussed each part in more depth, although I think it's quite, quite easy to interpret. So the mission statement is the American Academy of physical therapy is a non not for profit organization whose mission is to provide relief to poor and disadvantaged African Americans and other minorities by and let's talk about this first one, promoting a new innovative programs in health promotion, health delivery systems and disease prevention. Would you mind just talking more on the importance of that?   12:26 Well, we just have so many different talented individuals who are in all these different aspects, whether it be neuro, whether it be neurotherapy, whether it be sports and mettam, sports, med Med, whether it be dealing with childhood, obesity, bottom line is, I think it was back in 2010 with the Department of Human Services, Office of Minority Health and Health Disparities disparities came out with all of their initiatives, and we partnered with them. And I think it was probably 20 or $30,000. Grant, but I'm not sure right now. But But the bottom line is, is we partnered with them, because we wanted to really make an impact in our community, as relates to the health care disparities. So whether it's talking about diabetes are having different hypertension, and different organizational would you call them community health fairs, or programs, we even had a program with the Patterson cow foundation that they supported for childhood obesity. Our goal is for our individual members in their communities to make an impact and partner with the organization at large and use us, you know, to help them make the impact in our community using our resources. And our net network.   13:54 Yeah, yeah. It's funny as talking right now, everything you're saying is great. My husband's musical theater and he's singing full out right now. So I just want to acknowledge it is what it is love him. And you know what life is a musical? Isn't that great? Next, encouraging minority students to pursue careers in allied health professions. Oh, can you talk about the need there?   14:17 And on that note, we'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and be right back. When it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and increasing referrals, net Health's digital marketing solutions have the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found, get chosen and definitely get those five star reviews on Google. Net Health is a fun new offer. If you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic win. They will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about his new integration. Head over to net help.com forward slash Li TZY to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit.   14:59 Also keeps me there, I think that we are still less than 3% of the profession. And the goal is to really expose the minority students to the profession as early as we can. So whether that means are different individuals, whether we're at one of our conferences, when we do some of the community outreach, or just someone in their own community, that's exposing individuals by going to health fairs going to speak at the local professional, and career career days, we've had so many opportunities. In fact, my wife and I, in conjunction with the American Academy of physical therapy, we ran a program called Let's Talk About program that did just that it really expose the kids to different professions until to improving their life skills and to becoming excellent and just empowering them to awaken the genius within them. And once again, that was one of those organizations that partnered with the APTA and use the 501 C three, until we got our own 501 C three, but then continue to partner with them. Because the goal is, if you can expose a child and broaden their horizons, it just gives them more options, on what they what they can do and what they can be when they get older. And it makes it makes perfect sense that if you can see yourself doing something, then or someone like you doing something, it increases the possibility that you have in your own mind that you can actually do it yourself. So when you look at Barack Obama, you have you have no idea how many, you know, kids right now can think to themselves that wow, Brock Obama was president I can be president or rob Tillman, or Leon Anderson, is, you know, high in an organization, doing things to help our community, I can do that same thing, I can make that particular impact. We've also had   16:51 visual affirmations, literally, yes,   16:54 we absolutely. We've also had many educational opportunities to help with our students. And just making sure that once you get into PT school, that you pass the exams, we used to hold many of the exam prep courts of the exam, prep organizations and courses around the country.   17:19 That's great. Yeah, it's all there's so much opportunity in this. It's a big one. It's a big one. And no, this speaks to any, any, anybody would like who is black, or in a minority, this speaks to you right away. Absolutely. And if you are wondering apps, yes, definitely reach out to AAPT. This is, this is part of their mission. Next, and finally is performing clinical research directly related to health conditions found within minority communities.   17:49 Same thing as as before, we encourage our, our members, and our constituents and our stakeholders, to engage with the professional organizations and do their poster research. And, you know, to really see, you know, what it is that our community needs, because most of the research that's done is just is or has been done historically, has been on the typical, you know, American, which may be a five, seven, you know, 40 year old white male. So the key is, we really want to make sure that we get data that lets us know, you know, what is the optimal amount of vitamin D, for a African American and living in the, you know, the Bible Belt, you know, that has this particular type of, of exercise level. There, this particular type of diet, you know, so, over the years, we've had many of those posters and the different organizations, annual conferences, and also in Chicago, Diane Adams, Saulsbury. And Vinod Rosebery, who's who's actually mayor now, they, in conjunction with the AAPT had a phenomenal he was a kid's fitness health club at an actual health club, and they were able to, to glean data on the health of our community, as relates to our kids and how they interact with an actual exercise routine. And a, a place to go that's safe, and also informative, and getting them to where they need to be. It was just it was just phenomenal. It was it was a phenomenal organization, and a phenomenal, healthy place to go.   19:47 I'm so grateful you have this research as part of your mission. I teach people how to treat dancers PTS PTAs. And we had a group discussion, one I, where we, we I pulled research and tried to find research on dancers, black dancers might be, where's that research black female dancers. And there was, there was one and it had clear bias. But it did show a little bit that there needed to be a lot more investigation. And, and then it just it was like crickets, it was crickets, when I was searching on PubMed, trying to find studies, specifically on minority bodies with that purpose for comparative data. And we didn't have in the little time I did to gather, we started talking about vitamin D, like you just mentioned, not from me knowing to bring it up. But from another black physical therapist in the room and other other black PCs in the room. Honestly, that became a topic. And it wasn't from research, it was was just from personal experience is and it's just, yeah, we need we need this information to do better for humans. so badly.   21:09 It's funny that you say that, Jenny, because one of my protegees it's interesting, because in when you talk about the academy, one of the one of the things that I think we're really, really famous for is it's an it's an N. It's been unofficial for many, many years. But we have a navigation program that helps not only students get into the profession, and get into school and stay in school, and then in addition to that, pass the exam, once you get into the to the profession, and how do you even navigate the profession. So when you mentioned the dancers, I immediately thought of one of my previous employer, employees and that one of my previous students, her name is Shane, I know I'm messing up her last name. And I think she's married now. So I'm really messing up her maiden name, but it's ojo, Fatima, I believe anyway, she is the she is definitely the TCS, the top physical therapist with the L Navy dance troupe. I think she might even be the medical director right now, I'm not going to be sure about about it. She's actually the medical director, I know that they really lean on her big, big time. But she's somebody who, you know, absolutely should be should be out front, not only giving you the information that you might need for your Google, you know, search. But once again, she's there to let that young girl or guy, you know, who's interested in dance, know that, you know, not only not only can you be involved in the performance arts as a dancer, but also as a medical or healthcare professional, or navigation program. So I think that she was a patient of I mean, a student of mine, at least 12 years ago, but our communication has never waned. We even talked as recently as last month, about her career, where careers going in and also getting other younger physical therapists and other parts of the country hooked up with her because as when they travel, they need to use local services, local physical therapy services, and whether that means, you know, a practice that they can come into while they're in that city or if there is a opportunity for an intern in a particular city where they are to come and spend some time with him. So our navigation program is so wide and it's so varied. When you look at just my career alone. I had my father I had Dr. Linda Woodruff. I had Rob Tillman. I had Robert Babs, I had at least 10 or 15, close mentors, role models, advisors, who could help me navigate where it is that I wanted to be, whether it's whether we're on Capitol Hill, doing some lobbying for physical therapy codes, whether I'm dealing with Ohio State University and their football team, or, or whether we're talking about trying to have a Howard University accredited exam. I remember I met with the president of Howard University because I was on the commission for accreditation for physical therapy, education. And I was there for an accredited accrediting visit. And now one of the people who's come in under our navigation, Vanessa LeBlanc, she is now a captive reviewer. So the reach is so wide and so long, that, you know, just being being associated with this network affords you such a wide array of opportunities and possibilities.   24:40 Absolutely. I'm just more than this navigation program. People might be perked up going, what is this? What is this? So I'm going to use some outsider terms on this. So yes, this is a mentorship program, but it's different. And it's really about when you connect with AAPT in court I'm where I'm mixing it up or saying it wrong. So when you connect with AAPT, anyone to a PT is they have a very large network of people with different expertise and you get forwarded to the right person. It's not just within the, the heads of the organization, because, I mean, everybody's doing this volunteer why so not? They can't, they can't, I'll take on everyone. But then from there, you go to this huge web, imagine like, Charlotte's beautimous beautiful web that's extremely expanded and connects you to all the multiple people that would advise you and take you through your journey to really accomplish a lot. It's very cool. And, and, and naturally expanding like you just said, with your your student, how you're now connecting her with students, you know, or people who could use her help. I think it's very, very cool thing that AAPT has going on. Did I explain that correctly?   26:00 I think so. I think he did a good a good summary job. Because it's not a instone program, what it is is right, right, exactly the way the way you the way you explained it was very, very, very good.   26:12 Yes, score. This AAPT has, has been around since 1989, as Leon was saying, and is an organization either, too, if you want to get involved, please reach out to them. Volunteers are always welcomed, there's plenty of opportunity, as you can hear from the mission statement. And, yeah, anything else you want to add on AAPT? A topic that I have potentially looked over because this is a big organ, this organization is a big deal. And I don't want to miss anything?   26:45 Well, no, I think you hit on the major things, I will say go to the website, if you have questions, then, you know, go ahead and submit them through the through the website. It's just a, an organization that I think is just very much relevant and needed to make sure that our community continues to be relevant, and get what get what it needs. That to keep us moving forward and moving in the right direction, because we're all connected. And we all need one another at some point, you never know when you're going to need need someone I remember, there was a member that was I would say he would come to the or to the meetings maybe every other year or something like that. I'll leave him nameless. But when he came, and he was actually being attacked by the State Board for a reason, that was not necessarily his fault. But because we had so many members that were involved in academia and also involved in the state boards that were able to help them out. But once again, you don't know what you need a lot of times until you need it. So just be involved, I would say it'd be involved in your, in all the associations that you can get that are professional associations, because you can glean information from from from everyone. Just because you're a member of AAPT doesn't mean you should not be a member of a PTA or any other healthcare or allied health organization that you think you're a possible stakeholder. And so yeah, I think that it just really makes sense to stay connected to the professional organizations because you won't know what hit you until it hits you. So what you want to do is stay ahead of the paddles, which is one of the terms that we use in our business, there's always a paddle coming after us at every every every point where there's legislation, or COVID It doesn't matter what it is. So the key is to be as prepared as you possibly can for each panels that come and if you can somehow anticipate what a panel you know might be booked for comps and by doing that you can be up on the current legislation you can be up on the current trends in the professor because we become about you know the current pitfalls you know, and then you're much more likely to be a successful individual and happy with your professor. I love it.   29:08 Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it and definitely to get connected with anyone AAPT like you said check go to that website. Thank you so much for coming on. We absolutely appreciate you Take care everyone.   29:23 And a big thank you to Jenna and Leon for a wonderful episode. And of course thank you to our sponsor Net Health. So again if you are looking to get your clinic found online, increase your reputation and your referrals then dead net house Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition get found get chosen get those five star reviews. If you sign up now for a free marketing audit digital marketing solutions from Net Health will buy lunch for your office head over to net health.com forward slash li T zy to sign up for you a complimentary marketing audit today.   30:03 Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media

Originally from the Minneapolis area, Scott Ward studied commercial design and illustration at the University of Minnesota. Scott has worked as an artist and designer in advertising, clothing design, graphic design, theater design, landscape design, interior design, illustration and murals, and has shown his paintings in many galleries around the country. After his introduction to The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, Scott found himself facilitating creativity groups and eventually becoming a community leader with a focus on community development and engagement. He presently serves as the Executive Director of the Fairhaven Association in Bellingham, WA. Scott still finds time to create art. Timestamp 2:22 Growing up as an artistic kid 3:03 Discovering The Artist's Way 4:26 Being a full time artist-entrepreneur 5:52 Getting into the world of community engagement 7:12 Fairhaven's initial organizational challenges and dealing with them 9:12 The importance of giving credit whenever it is due 12:15 Managing time as an active artist plus community leader 13:55 Drawing up the blueprint for Fairhaven's future 14:23 Working on the Space Needle mural project 18:27 Analyzing elements of Scott's artwork 20:04 Daily routines and rituals to power through the day 23:48 When rejection from priesthood brought clarity to life's purpose 25:30 Leaving a legacy and making a difference 27:15 Dealing with challenging decision making processes 29:16 Painting the big picture: keeping the whole community in frame 30:14 Thoughts about the future 32:56 Change is inevitable - taking small steps as a budding artist Social Media Website: scottwardart.com Instagram: instagram.com/scottwardart/ Facebook: facebook.com/scott.ward.18062 Enjoy Fairhaven: enjoyfairhaven.com Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Transcript Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius. Oh my gosh, okay, I just want to say: my most favorite person in the world today is on the podcast - Scott Ward. And Scott Ward, if you don't know him, he's an amazing visual artist, who became an accidental Executive Director for the Fair Haven Business Association. It's not really the business association, but the Fair Haven, you know, Association for where he lives. But he is amazing. He's been an actor, he's created clothing. He's done everything possible - interior design, like if you look out in the world, at things, you'll see Scott Ward imprinted on most of them. And he has a beautiful collection of artwork that has really just kept its its beauty over time - I was gonna say it's just so iconic, the stuff that you draw, I have a number of them in my home, I will say - and one of them he gave to us for our wedding, which is just so incredible. So, I thank you, Scott, for being here. Hey, by the way, I didn't mention this, but he also is a musician and singer. Really incredible. Okay. Welcome to the show, Scott. Scott Ward 01:51 Hi, Patti. It's nice to see you. Patti Dobrowolski 01:53 Nice to see you too. And so we haven't seen each other in a long time. Because of COVID - It's kind of a drag. I know but just in another month, I'm going to be standing - hopefully, cross your fingers, you know - side by side with you, that will be so incredible. So, Scott, tell people about you. How did you become an artist? And then how did you end up working as the executive director in Fair Haven? So, get us in the trajectory of how you, from the beginning of time, bring us to the present moment? Scott Ward 02:22 Yeah, it's not the life I ever imagined. You know, I grew up as the artistic kid. That's what I was recognized as, everybody saw me as the artistic kid. And fortunately, I had a couple of really fantastic teachers in Junior High, in high school who globbed on to me and said, "We're going to nurture you as much as we can", and then, you know, after high school kind of pushed me on my way. And then, you know, I went to school and studied fine art, and realized I could never make it as a fine artist; I have to, you know, get jobs that pay me. And so I was doing all that design work that you mentioned: I was doing interior design, and clothing design and graphic design and, um... Patti Dobrowolski 03:00 You had a whole line of cards at one point. Yeah. Scott Ward 03:03 Yeah. I worked for a card company and was just drawing - making little goofy cards. And then in 1994, actually, Patti, you sent me "The Artist's Way" - the book by Julia Cameron. And it had just come out, and at the same time, another friend of mine in Seattle found the book and recommended it, and I thought: I should maybe pay attention to this. And so, you know, over the next few years, I not only studied that book and went through it, but started leading and facilitating groups to get other people to go through that book. And it's a fantastic process. You know, it's set up to be this and discover your creativity, really, it's a whole life purpose kind of process. And so in that I realized, wait a second, I'm being a little hypocritical in that I'm urging all these other people to be artists in the world, and I'm just avoiding it by being a designer, which was not a bad thing - it just wasn't completely who I was supposed to be. And so, you know, I jumped into being a full time artist, like right away. And within six months, I had my first show at this little restaurant in Seattle and sold a few pieces there. And then six months later, I had my very first one person show in this gallery in Pioneer Square in Seattle, where all the- Patti Dobrowolski 04:15 Really, really big deal. Scott Ward 04:17 Really big deal. And you know, the amazing thing that happened there was I sold every single piece in that show. Patti Dobrowolski 04:24 Oh my god. Scott Ward 04:26 Yeah. And so you know, it had to have started as an idea like a full time artist, and then a year later have a sellout show - it was a real fast trajectory. And it was a little overwhelming. I mean, it was stressful because I thought: how am I supposed to live up to that, right? It was like yeah, oh my god, this success is kind of unbelievable. What am I supposed to do with it? And so, I had a little bit of a dip or I thought, you know - can I really do this? But now it's saying that in the next 15 years I was a full time artist and you know, traveled around the country and did shows in a lot of different places and became the representative artist for several different nonprofit organizations and really was having this really fantastic artist's life where I was meeting fascinating, interesting people and going places that I never imagined being and doing a lot of commissioned work. So, creating artwork that never would have crossed my mind. And at the same time, I got to work with you, and this process of your unfolding and the graphic recording and change management stuff, and so learned a lot in that. So, fast forward to being a full time artist: we were living in Seattle, and moved into the Magnolia neighborhood, which is a nice affluent neighborhood that has a little village and my partner, husband owns a little shop there. And I thought, well, you know, I should probably connect with the business community, 'cause sometimes being an artist can be a solitary experience, right? Patti Dobrowolski 05:52 Yes, definitely. Scott Ward 05:52 It's a lot of time at the easel. And if you're at all extroverted, that can become a really challenging life. And so I thought I needed to connect with the community and got engaged with the Chamber of Commerce there. And the Chamber of Commerce, there was kind of a mess. And not kind of a mess, it was really- Patti Dobrowolski 06:12 It was really a mess. Scott Ward 06:13 It was really a mess. And I thought, I think I know a few things that might be able to help them move forward. And so I stepped in and you know, within just a short amount of time became president of that Chamber of Commerce. And I have to say, that really is a lot of the work that I was able to do with you allows me to say to these folks, you know, let's get some clarity in what we're doing here, right? You have a vision, but you're not really living into it. And so let's really revisit that and start to line up with who we're supposed to be in the world. And so I made some changes there, which meant basically a whole turnover in their board. And- Patti Dobrowolski 06:54 Oh, yeah, it was tricky. It was a tricky time. Scott Ward 06:58 It was a tricky time, but I- You know, usually I'm so diplomatic and level-headed, and there were a couple of times where I lost it with them. I'm like: You are like 14 year old kids! I was yelling at them- Patti Dobrowolski 07:12 Oh my gosh. Scott Ward 07:12 You know, it was kind of what needed to happen because they were just stuck in a rut. And so anyway, now we live in Bellingham. And because I had that experience in Seattle, when we came to Bellingham, the little village that we live in is a neighborhood within Bellingham- Patti Dobrowolski 07:29 -called Fairhaven. Scott Ward 07:30 Yeah, Fairhaven. And it's a historic district. It's really sweet. And it's had this community / business association in existence since the mid 70s. So it's been around for a long time. And it was a completely volunteer organization. Patti Dobrowolski 07:45 Yeah. Scott Ward 07:45 And, you know, saying that those volunteers were able to do some really fantastic things over the years, like they really preserved the historic character, they created some wonderful events and some programs. However, there was a lot of dysfunction in what was happening, because the volunteers, they turned to their friends and they'd say: Hey, I want to put a statue in the village green. And their friends would say: Hey, yeah, let's do it. And then they would do it. And then they'd go to the board and say, Hey, we need $45,000- Patti Dobrowolski 08:14 To put that statue up. Scott Ward 08:16 Yeah. And the board would say, okay, great. And they'd kind of rubber stamp it, but there was no accountability, or no- Patti Dobrowolski 08:21 No plan, right. Scott Ward 08:22 No plan and no alignment with everything else that was happening. So every time somebody got a little wind to do something, they would do it. And that caused a lot of rifts in the relationships of the folks that were doing things. You know, it's like this recycled volunteer group that just went through, people would get upset, they get their feelings hurt, you know? And- Patti Dobrowolski 08:44 Yeah, like every volunteer organization, you know, you're like a piece of coal when you go in and you're a diamond when you come out, because- or you're kicked out one or the other before you're a diamond. Scott Ward 08:54 Yeah. And so there was this core group of volunteers that really had been active since the 80s. You know, it's only a handful, like half a dozen of them. And they would, like you said - they'd split people up, they use them, split them out, and became really, really dysfunctional. And so we show up, and of course, they had- Patti Dobrowolski 09:11 And you set up Current and Furbish. Yeah, you have that beautiful little shop there in Fairhaven, and everybody should go see there because it's fantastic. Scott Ward 09:21 Yeah, it's a great little shop and a great little village. And, you know, I thought - maybe I just should be done with this community work because it takes a lot of energy to do that, working with people and all the different personalities - but they came to me and they said: Hey, what do you want to do with us? Because they had written an article about me. So it didn't take long for me to realize that there was a lot of potential here. It wasn't quite as messed up as the Magnolia chamber head. And I saw that there was great potential here. And I also recognize there were some really easy things that could kind of fix what was going on. And that was - you know, one of the things was, in their volunteer organization, they'd never did any kind of acknowledgement - private or public - for their volunteers. There was- Patti Dobrowolski 10:10 Oh my god, are you kidding? Scott Ward 10:11 They didn't send out thank you notes. They didn't really say thank you. They didn't have an end of year celebration and I thought: You know, that one thing would make a huge difference. Patti Dobrowolski 10:24 Yeah, people come back if you appreciate them. That's what it's all about. Scott Ward 10:25 That's exactly what it's about. And then, you know, even just the folks that show up, they want to volunteer for one thing, it's important to acknowledge them, right? It's- Patti Dobrowolski 10:34 Yeah, definitely. Scott Ward 10:35 And even the people that say: Oh, no, no, I don't need anything, do not thank me publicly - find a way to thank them. Patti Dobrowolski 10:42 Yeah, what I love about that is you acknowledge that they have their own way of liking to do that, because everybody's different. So some people, it's mortifying and frightening for them to be acknowledged publicly. So if you can find a way to do it, that gives them the spotlight in their own way. Scott Ward 11:00 That's right. You know, I think it's even as easy as, say, you're in a group, we have monthly meetings, right? And so make sure, like, let's say, John is over there. And John doesn't ever want to be publicly thanked or appreciated, right? Make sure that whoever you're talking to, you say: Hey, I just want you to know that John did most of the work so that John overhears it, right? Then it's this thing where it's private, he gets it, you know, that he's getting it in theory, right? Patti Dobrowolski 11:25 Yeah. Scott Ward 11:25 And that will carry him. Carry him to the next bit of whatever he's doing. Anyway, we come in over - you know, the first few years we were here, I had heard several times, we really have wanted an executive director for a long time. But we just haven't done anything about it. Is this the universe telling me what I'm supposed to be doing? Right? How many times do you have to hear it? Patti Dobrowolski 11:49 Yeah, that's right. That's cool. Scott Ward 11:51 So finally, I just, yeah, went to the board. And I said, okay, it feels like I'm supposed to throw my hat in, help this organization by creating this position. And that's what they did. So that's why I really became the accidental Executive Director. I never intended in doing community work, I thought I was going to be a full time artist. This kind of, you know, exciting life. But I still get to do a little bit of that. Patti Dobrowolski 12:15 Yeah. That's fantastic. So all right. Now you really run Fairhaven, but you're still like a full time artist. Right? So how do you balance all your time of all the things that you're doing, Scott? Cause you have a million things on your plate. How do you organize yourself? Scott Ward 12:32 That's a lot. This kind of counteracts that the artists lifestyle and mindset is that I'm very disciplined. So I know that Thursdays are my studio day, like I have tell everyone - I put on my email, you know, the message, it says, Hey, I'm in the studio today, I'm not going to take your calls. And I'm not going to answer your texts. And so I just really am clear that at least Thursdays, I know, I have a full day of being in the studio. Then, there are other days where I'm a little more flexible about it. But it's- Patti Dobrowolski 13:01 Yeah. Scott Ward 13:01 And then when I'm working for the Association, I'm just really clear like - these are the days I'm available for the Association. But it really is that discipline that makes it happen, otherwise, I don't know how I could do it. It really is a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 13:16 Yeah, I think when you have multiple things going on, it's important to - you have to schedule everything. And you know, people think, Oh, you've got, you know, you've worked for yourself, and so they have lots of free time. And yeah, that free time is filled up with a lot of things that are the behind the scenes part. And you have really finessed that over time, so that you're continuing to show your work, it's really well received, and - you've built Fairhaven into this consistent community engagement, which is awesome. Now you've got like a Draw your Future picture behind you, Scott - did you do that for your organization, for Fairhaven? Scott Ward 13:55 Yeah, for Fairhaven. So three years ago, when I first started the process, we created a strategic plan, because they had had one - we revisited the mission statement, and then created that plan. And so in that three years, we really accomplished everything we had set forth. And so this process now is, what do the next 3 to 5 years look like? So since we've accomplished this, yeah, let's look forward. And you know, this is a fantastic process. People love it. Patti Dobrowolski 14:23 Yeah, it's a little gap analysis, and then you're drawing real time and you're writing words, and you can see, here's this - it's very messy back there. So if you think to yourself: Oh, I can't draw and I can't do that - well, look, it's messy. That's the way we want it to be because you'll call out the things that are most important. And I just want to - for those of you listening, as Scott Ward really has been the behind the scenes studio artist for me for so many years - so these companies that I work with, I often will go in and and I'll do a rough illustration of their vision, but then I bring it home and I have Scott finesse it in the studio. Because I'm not a trained fine artist - you heard him say he was trained - but the stuff is incredible. But I wanted to share this one experience that we had doing a mural for the Seattle Space Needle because I thought this was- So, Scott, tell us a little bit about what happened. When we went in I got a commission to do a mural and the interior for the employees, right. So we ran some focus groups, and then we were going to do this. Now I knew I wasn't a muralist, so I immediately hired Scott to come in - I like wrote him right in the contract, so that I would have someone who actually knew how to do what I said I could do, right? And so, tell everybody what happened. Scott Ward 15:39 Well, we had a lot of things happen. Patti Dobrowolski 15:41 You mean, are you talking about meeting Five Seconds of Summer as they ran past us? (laughs) Scott Ward 15:47 (laughs) It's crazy. But, you know, it was a good process, because we met with all the different department heads and got their input into what this image should be. And it really was - how long was that wall? Patti Dobrowolski 16:01 It was 40 feet. Scott Ward 16:03 Yeah, 40 feet long, and it was just the top half of the wall. So it was this long, skinny- Patti Dobrowolski 16:09 4 feet high and 40 feet long. It was the mural that we did. Scott Ward 16:13 Yeah. And it was kind of basically tell the whole story - the Seattle Center, and the Space Needle. And you know, it was taking all those ideas and putting it into this image, and it really was alike an elaborate map that you would do in, you know, a brainstorming session. It was great. I mean, I loved it. Patti Dobrowolski 16:34 We had a little, a couple of SNAFUs in that though. So okay, so when you do a mural, like you pencil out the whole thing, and just want to say that it didn't totally match the drawing. I was in charge of moving the projector. So that was one of the things that Scott was able to fix. However, we go in to start to- We buy $1,000 worth of these paints, pens, no, paint, what were we- we've got pens- Scott Ward 17:01 We started with the markers. Patti Dobrowolski 17:01 We were going to use Copic markers. So we went in - I had tested it on the paint already, so I knew it would work and we go in on that day to do it. And the first pen stroke that we do, it pulls the paint off onto the pen. So if we spent $1,000 on markers, we were going to spend 5 or 6 thousand dollars to do the whole thing. So I go to Scott: Oh, no, what do we do? And of course, Scott knew the answer - you were like, let's go get some paint pens. Yeah, so we ran to the art store, and then we painted that whole thing together, which was so much fun. Scott Ward 17:38 My favorite was - what was the little misspelling that- Patti Dobrowolski 17:45 It was on the bus. I can't remember what it said, but it was- I missed a letter. Scott Ward 17:51 (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 17:51 I did all the lettering. I had missed a letter in it. But it made sense. We've made sense, what I had written - but it was a funny in-joke, but they made us change it. I can't remember, I wish I had that here so we could show it off. I'll have to look at it, drop in the picture. (laughs) You know, do you prefer to- You did that that large format with me, but you spend many hours and days- you use some repeat images in your illustrations? What did they mean, and why do you use the same images? Tell me a little bit and give us some insight into your artwork? Scott Ward 18:27 Yeah, you know, I think like most of us, we have recurring themes just in our life in general, right. And I think for me, I grew up in Minnesota, in a Catholic German family, and you know, all those things are very restricted, right. And so, are restrictive. And, especially as a gay man it's really restrictive, or as a little gay boy. And so I think I often paint about feeling trapped or wanting greater freedom. So you know, I did a series of images based around cages, birds in cages, and the birds kind of represent the soul, the cages, the situations I find myself in and then there's- I do a lot about home and feeling, wanting to feel a place of home and, you know, connection. Yeah, a lot of that. And I use a lot of green, because green represents growth and life to me and wanting to really grow into fully who I am. So it's a lot about freedom and belonging. Patti Dobrowolski 19:26 Yeah, it's fantastic. And then you had a whole "Red Ball" series, which was really cool - really, so playful and fun. And all of his artwork has been described as very whimsical and it's really beautiful. It's just incredible. So kudos to you for all that sitting at that easel all that time. But now, tell us - I want to know, like what- and I bet you, other people want to know: what's your day look like? Like, give us the run of show for the whole day for you. So we know, like, how do you stay focused and in yourself and how do you, you know, complete your day, what kinds of things at the end? Scott Ward 20:04 You know - like you, I have a little routine that sets me up for the day. So, the first thing I do in the morning is: with my little pot of coffee, I sit down and I write. I journal every morning - I have journaled every morning, for the last, I'm gonna say 35 years. Patti Dobrowolski 20:22 Yeah. Scott Ward 20:23 And in that, there is this great centering that happens - it allows me to kind of get the menial, gritty stuff out and really focus on what's important. And I can't imagine what my life would be without doing that every single day. And in that, it's also this sense of meditation and contemplation that sets me up in a really kind of peaceful and calm way for the day. Then, I do some kind of exercise: I run about four to five days a week, and we live- Patti Dobrowolski 20:54 - About five miles, right? Five to something miles, like, you're crazy. Yeah, he's a crazy runner. I tried running with him, I just want to say: No, no, I can't really- Scott Ward 21:06 I don't really like running. I don't like running. I mean, I like being done running. And a good run is when I don't realize I'm running, right? Like, when the ideation part of me takes place, and I forget I'm running, that's a good run. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 21:20 (laughs) Oh, my god. Scott Ward 21:22 But it's important, because there is also something really valuable in putting your body into a rhythmic mode that brings up the clarity and ideas. So, problem solving and creative processing all takes place in that- Patti Dobrowolski 21:38 -In movement. Scott Ward 21:39 -uh, physical activity. And that takes place in walking, too, especially when you walk alone - if you're walking with somebody, you have a tendency to have a conversation with them- Patti Dobrowolski 21:48 Yeah. Scott Ward 21:49 -which is something different. And so- Patti Dobrowolski 21:51 -then yourself, talking to yourself in your head - or out loud! Sometimes I caught myself talking out loud - I'm like, don't talk out loud, it's no, not appropriate. Scott Ward 22:01 Yeah. And we live close enough to the village, it's a mile. And so we walk - and that walk also is a really important thing, as far as just staying centered. And so then my day, who knows what the rest of the day is going to be like - with the Fairhaven Association, I sit in a ton of meetings. Like I, you know, it's not unusual for me to have five or six meetings in a day. And, you know, that gets to be a long day. So taking breaks in between, getting outside, moving a little bit is important. Patti Dobrowolski 22:29 Getting coffee. Scott Ward 22:30 Getting coffee, yeah, exactly. Chocolate- Patti Dobrowolski 22:35 All the key things. Scott Ward 22:36 Yeah. And then on my studio days, I really just am so focused on being an artist that it really is basically closing the door to my studio, being in there drawing out new images, or - I do a lot of commission work now, like most of what I do is commission work. And so, really, that process is connecting with the client, and getting their thoughts on what they're looking for. And then, you know, it's all about the creative process on that day, and really is staying focused on being an artist and wearing my painted clothes and not caring what I look like or, you know, being seen. And so - but every day is different. And that's what you get when you are working with, you know, all kinds of different people, and creating all sorts of different programs and events. And, you know, there's something kind of exciting about that, I don't know if I could live a life where every day was the same, right? It just wouldn't be stimulating for me or at all fulfilling - I just think there's something really exciting in the uncertainty of what the day is going to play. Patti Dobrowolski 23:48 Well, and also to - I mean, yours is a life of service. Since I met you, you've always been serving someone - you know, in the community, or you served in your church - you served in all these different ways. And so, say a little bit about why you think service is important, or why is it important to you? Scott Ward 24:08 You know, I recognized early on - well, in my 20s, I wasn't that way - I was pretty self serving, and part of it was this sense of survival - just wanting to know how I was going to make it through this life, because I didn't have clarity and, really, what I was supposed to be doing. And once I realized, oh yes, this is what I'm called to do- Patti Dobrowolski 24:27 You were going to be a priest. I mean, that was gonna be true. That's part of your story, was you were going to be a priest. And then when they found out you were gay, that was it. You had to make a choice. Scott Ward 24:35 Yeah, they rejected me. I mean, they out and out rejected me. And so, that was a huge thing, because for me I felt like, you know, I really am called to the spiritual unfoldment. Patti Dobrowolski 24:49 Yeah. Scott Ward 24:50 To have that kind of thrown back at me was really difficult. I thought: Really? I had this understanding that I was supposed to be making a difference. Not in just my life but in other people's lives. And so, it took me a while to bounce back from that - it was one of the best things that ever happened because it really made me clarify what my role was supposed to be. And being a priest - now, when I look back, I think I would have been miserable. Patti Dobrowolski 25:17 Yeah, so I was gonna say that was a good choice. Definitely. How rigid could that have been, yeah. (laughs) Scott Ward 25:25 There's some things about being a priest that I just found out that like- Patti Dobrowolski 25:30 Yeah. Scott Ward 25:30 And so, you know, just this idea of - I want to leave a legacy. And I think when people become parents, I think that's an easy sense of: Oh, yes, I'm leaving something behind in the world that will make a difference, right? Patti Dobrowolski 25:45 That's right. Scott Ward 25:45 And I don't have kids, I won't ever have kids at this point. And I just thought, what can I leave in the world that will make a difference? Yes, I have my art and my mission with my artists to create inspired and inspiring uplifting images, right? And so, yes, I'll leave that. But I also want to feel like I'm leaving my little corner of the world better than the way I found it. And I think, you know, we say I live in service, but there's a sense of selfishness about living a life of service, right? It is about feeling good about what I'm doing in the world. And, and no, that's not ultimately the goal, it is kind of a byproduct of doing good in the world and lifting others up in the world, right there. There is some satisfaction from that. And that, yeah. And so it really is about the wanting to just leave a positive- Patti Dobrowolski 26:41 Also, you know, you're very good about knowing - like, you really have a sense of 'knowingness' about what you like or dislike - and this I admire in you, because I'm not, sometimes not as clear in some areas around this, so I would default to Scott, when I was choosing certain things: "What do you think of that?" But you have a really clear sense. So when you're in a situation where you feel challenged, and you need to make a decision, what do you do to help yourself understand what the right thing is to do? Scott Ward 27:15 I think it's different every time, right? If it involves somebody else, and there is some, maybe, misalignment in what's supposed to happen - I always remember that the other people or person involved has a whole story that has brought them to their perspective, right? And so to honor that, at the same time, you know, I have a whole story that's brought me to my perspective. And, you know, is there something that can happen that honors both of those stories, right? That's always the place I go to, there's got to be - anything's possible, right? So, is there this solution, is there this way forward that gives a nod to both or all sides of what's happening? So that's one way - if it's just me trying to figure out what's going on, it really is going for an extra run, or spending an extra page writing, or going for a walk - it really is putting myself back out into this place of: Okay, let's kind of ruminate. I also say, you know, before I go to bed, before I fall asleep - I will say: Let's find some clarity about this tonight, right? In the middle of the night, let's bring it into our dreams, let's bring it into our sleep, and let it to kind of figure itself out without my getting in the way. Patti Dobrowolski 28:31 Yeah. Scott Ward 28:32 Right? And so all those things are kind of me trying to get myself out of the way because we can be our own worst enemy. Patti Dobrowolski 28:38 Yeah. You know, we have an opinion about what should happen, we have a - you know, we're always trying to make ourselves look good, our ego gets in there, and then instead of trying to see it from a distant field - like I sometimes will put it on a playing field, because like a chess board, and I can see all the players in the field, and then understand what their position is within that chess game, and then help us move closer to alignment - so that eventually, checkmate, and one of us wins. I mean, not in that sense, but you know, there's a solution that's better than both of us. That's fantastic. Scott Ward 29:16 I actually, uh, as an artist, you know, I see people as different colors and shapes, right? And so, you know, I can say: Oh, yeah, that color and that shape will work next to this one, but this one here, it really needs to be moved over the other side of the painting, right? And so, I kind of see it that way, because I'm so visual, that it just is kind of - for me to create a community as an image. And there's care that has to be done in that, because it's not just saying: Hey, you don't get along with those folks. It's like, really - it's putting into this place that you would work really well over here. You'd be so valuable over here. We need you over here, right? And never, ever, put them- Patti Dobrowolski 29:55 - put them outside of the picture. Scott Ward 29:57 That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 29:57 You're out and you're not in the frame. Scott Ward 29:58 Yeah, that's exactly right. There's - Patti Dobrowolski 29:59 I love that - what a fantastic, but - what a fantastic way of envisioning that. Especially when we talk about community, are you thinking about teams? Are you thinking about whoever it is - family, you know, they all belong in the painting, somewhere. Scott Ward 30:13 That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 30:14 Now, when you think about your future, and you envision your future, what's your big thing that you see happening for you? What's the one thing that you think: Oh, this would be so cool. Like, if this thing happened, you know, that's what I do. Sometimes this thing happened, Scott Ward 30:32 If this thing happened...It's interesting, because I really love my life, like I love my life to be - I actually think it'd be greater if we've been closer to each other. Patti Dobrowolski 30:39 Yeah. Guess we need to change that. (laughs) Scott Ward 30:42 Yeah. But, you know, there's, I think, I don't really have any lofty goals anymore. I think it really is just to continue living, and growing a sense of integrity. Like, really being authentic. I remember growing up, and my parents were young, when they had, like, just basically out of high school. And I think they were still kids, right? When I was even six years old, they were in their mid 20s. And so I remember watching my dad, and he still had his high school friends; and when you hang out with them, he was one person; when he was at home with my mom, he was another person; when he was with us, he was another person; when he was with my grandparents, he was a completely different person, right? And I just watched how he kind of morphed into these different areas. And I realized, even then, that I wanted to be who I was, wherever I was - it didn't matter who I was with, I wanted to be me. And so, I've worked really hard to do that. And I wanted to continue to be able to do that, I still find myself, you know, being maybe a little defensive, or, you know, hold back or whatever. But I just want to be fully me, wherever I am. So I think that was kind of a lofty goal. But it's been an ongoing, lofty goal. Patti Dobrowolski 31:53 Yeah, I think, and it's not always easy. I think, you know, a lot of things push, push everybody, you know, our buttons, and then suddenly we're back in an old frame of mind, where we are seeing things from a very black and white perspective, and we're not embracing and we're not, you know, open to whatever's happening. And I just want to say, you're honestly incredible. I just felt - I as a friend, as an artist, as everything that I've seen that you've done - I just have so much love and admiration for you, that I feel fortunate that I got into your schedule to get you on the podcast, so thank you so much for that. But tell the listeners if you would, like, you know, this is all about making change. Like, we need to learn how to pivot easily and be flexible to it. So what would you say to somebody who's listening, you know, who needs to make a change and isn't quite sure how to do it or wants to become an artist and isn't sure how to step out - what would you say to them to help them bring more of their authenticity to the world? Scott Ward 32:56 First, I want to say that change is inevitable, right? You can sit there and say you don't want to change, fight against it - but think something's going to force you to change. And it's gonna be more painful than if you had made that choice yourself. Patti Dobrowolski 33:07 Yeah. Scott Ward 33:07 And then the other aspect of it is, you have nothing to lose by trying, right? Just try. And so, if you're not going to do anything, you're not going to get anywhere - you can sit and imagine things are gonna happen, but without action, nothing's gonna happen. My suggestion always, for folks that say: Hey, I really do want to be an artist - I say, every day, put yourself out there. And it can be the smallest thing - it's sending an email to a gallery or to an agent and just ask for feedback or, you know, find out what the process is. But everyday, one small thing - it could even be looking up another artist and seeing what their art was like, or talking to an artist and just finding out what they did, or what their day is like. But every single day, just do one small thing. And eventually, you'll start to find things that resonate with who you are, as an artist, and doors will start to open. It may not be what you think it's going to be - in fact, I can guarantee you, it's not ever going to be what you think it's going to be - but you have to be open to that, and trust. Trust is a huge thing. And you and I have talked about this many, many times over the years, because we knew each other when none of what we are now in existence or even what we had dreamed about. And so, you know, we, in the process, both recognize that once you put yourself into that - that journey, that you have to trust you're going to be taken care of. And you and I are living examples that that is true - that once you trust that everything you need is going to be there, it will be there. Patti Dobrowolski 34:43 And that - if it doesn't look the way you think it's going to, just keep going, because something better is on the other side - cause you can't vision from our current reality. So we have no idea what the future is really like. So, if you can get way out there - like I always say, put the most outrageous things on your map, the most incredible things - because believe it or not, those are the things that you're going to be sitting there 10 years later saying, I don't know how that happened, but it did. Look, I put it on that map. Scott Ward 35:15 Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think, because I know you, I give you a lot of credit for the life I have. Because it's been that, that idea that, don't be afraid to, you know, have - what's called the BHAG, right? The Big Hairy Audacious Goal, right? Don't be afraid of that, put it out there. Because if you don't ever put it out there, you're never going to get there, you have to be able to do that there. And, you know, this also reflects or goes back to what it's like to work with people - and a group of people is there are no bad ideas. Right? Every idea has validity, anything is possible. And once you step into that - and the other aspect of is: Yes, set those goals, but you have to take a step - there has to be action behind it. You can't just put the goal out there and then anticipate- Patti Dobrowolski 36:02 -and sit in the chair watching TV at home, you know, it's just not gonna happen. You got to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Scott Ward 36:08 That's right, you can do that drawing and put that goal out there. You can dream about it, but you have to start walking toward it. And you know, like we both have said, you start walking, but then the road is gonna turn left when you thought it was supposed to turn right. Well take go left, because that's going to be a more beautiful road than the right would happen. Patti Dobrowolski 36:29 Yeah, that you ever imagined it'll turn into something you never even imagined. Scott Ward 36:34 Yup. Patti Dobrowolski 36:34 Oh my gosh, God, this was so incredible. I got kind of all moved by just the conversation. It's just so- Scott Ward 36:41 Me too. I love you. Patti Dobrowolski 36:41 I love you too. And it's just so great to have you here. I can't wait to have you back, and we'll have to do some kind of annual thing - and we'll just see where it goes. But for everybody that's listening, I encourage you to follow ScottWardArt.com. You know, go there and see what he's doing. If you're in Fairhaven, go to Current and Furbish, say hi to Cameron, his partner, and also find Scott - because where Scott is, a lot of incredible things happen - and there will always be art and there will always be play and there will always be fun, and probably wine too. I'm guessing- Scott Ward 37:14 Well, I don't know- (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 37:18 There you go. Anyway, I love you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. And so, for everybody that's listening, you know the drill - if you liked the show, you know forward it to your friends or, you know, write Scott an email at scott@ScottWardArt.com - just acknowledge him and then in the way that he acknowledges others, and just go out today and you know what to do, just - if you can - Up Your Creative Genius. Thank you so much, everybody! Patti Dobrowolski 37:51 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius - then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy! Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly - Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap!

Should you invest in multifamily this year? There's no better time to invest in multifamily than today, and Bronson Hill will tell us why. Bronson is a real estate expert and a general partner in 1,400 multifamily units worth more than $120 million.  In this episode, he will share his experience jumping into the multifamily scene after working as a highly paid medical consultant. Initially, he did not want to invest in multifamily because he thought he needed a lot of money to start. This is probably the myth that many other aspiring investors believe in too. Well, Bronson will debunk this myth and share a couple of lessons that you can apply in your real estate investing right now.    [00:01 - 03:41] Opening Segment Bronson Hill shares his secret in learning multifamily investing Aspiring investors can enter the multifamily scene by doing this event [03:42 - 13:27] Staying in Front of Investors What you should be looking for in a multifamily partner Bronson gives some details about their monthly meetup Listen to what Bronson will say the current inflation rates [13:28 - 17:36] Building Your Multifamily Network Why Bronson and his team are staying away from Class A assets Bronson defines the Margin of Safety and why you should think about it The importance of networking in real estate according to Bronson [17:37 - 21:09] Closing Segment A tool or resource you can't live without Vidyard A real estate mistake you want the listeners to avoid Don't try to bring a great property manager to a new market Your way to make the world a better place Stopping human trafficking  Reach out to Bronson See links below  Final words   Tweetable Quotes   “ I think in general, when you're looking for partners…you want to know you're working with somebody that you can trust, somebody that you know, has your interest in mind, [and] will really have similar values to you.” - Bronson Hill   “If you're willing to do the work, you're willing to network, you're willing to try and make offers and just keep going for it, you'll find [a deal].” - Bronson Hill   “Go to events where there's going to be a lot of people there and just start asking questions…and figure out what people do and what's their biggest challenge.” - Bronson Hill   -----------------------------------------------------------------------------   Email bronsondavidhill@gmail.com to connect with Bronson or follow him on LinkedIn. Do you want to know the single best investment strategy during (and after) a pandemic? DOWNLOAD THE FREE report here.   Listen to his podcast, Mailbox Money Show, to grow your income without spending so much time. Connect with me:   I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook   LinkedIn   Like, subscribe, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or whatever platform you listen on.  Thank you for tuning in!   Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Bronson Hill  00:00 Don't try to bring a great property manager to a new market and other people will do and they'll do fine with it. I've seen that a couple times, not just in my own deals, but other people's deals. And so I like to see who's got established relationships. It's the relationships with vendors in the market with staff with other things. If they're from another market, even if it's two hours away, it's gonna be really hard sometimes to find new people, staff members for the property, or even vendors that come in and work and I've just seen it, and these property managers will be very cool. We'll come in and we'll do this and everyone's to expand, but I just prefer not to be the first one that they're expanding on, you know. So that's, I think the biggest thing.   Intro  00:34 Welcome to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we will teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.   Sam Wilson  00:45 Bronson Hill is the Managing Member of Bronson Equity. He is a general partner in 1,400 multifamily units worth over $120 million. Bronson, welcome to the show.   Bronson Hill  00:57 Hey, Sam, really excited to be here with you. I love talking about real estate, love talking about scaling business, and really excited for the conversation.   Sam Wilson  01:04 Hey, man, it's loads of fun. I'm looking forward to jumping in here. There's three questions I asked every guest who comes on the show. In 90 seconds or less? Can you tell me? Where did you start? Where are you now? And how did you get there?   Bronson Hill  01:13 Yeah, so I started, I was a high-paid consultant in the medical field worked with a lot of physicians realize the time for money trade, even for physicians that were getting paid a lot of money. Some physicians I knew works 80 hours a week and made millions of dollars, literally, but it was too much. And they didn't have freedom of time. And so that was most important to me, started with single family did a small single family portfolio that I had a kind of a chance meeting with a cousin I hadn't seen since I was a kid. And he said, “Why don't you do multifamily?” I said, Well, I'd love to, but I don't have the money. He said you can raise the money. And I just you know, he said read this book, go to this podcast, you know, do all this stuff and learn. And I did it. And basically a couple of years later, I raised a total of about $15 million and was able to leave my great corporate job that I thought there were golden handcuffs. And now I'm doing real estate full time, we've got about 150 million in multifamily assets, mostly in the southeast. And I just love it, man. It's just such a great business to be in.   Sam Wilson  02:08 Man. That's fantastic. I love the truncated stories because they make it sound like you know, it was just one success after another tablet. Yeah. And then oh my gosh, look at this 150 million bucks later, we're rocking and rolling. And we didn't hit a single speed bump. But I don't believe that. Yeah, I mean, some things that were some challenging pivotal moments. Maybe we're you know, you're like crud, we're at an intersection here. What did you do?   Bronson Hill  02:31 Like you said, there's a few of them. I think that one of the biggest ones is just it's so hard to get going. I mean, I'd say of those couple years, it took me about a year to really get going. And that's not uncommon. You know, there's this friend of mine, Michael Blank that says he talks about the Law of the First Deal, like getting the first deal can take a long time. But once you get the first deal done, once you're a general partner on a deal, the doors start to open, people look at you as an insider, and it changes everything. So for me, I started kind of through some of the books I was reading, I really starting a meetup, was a really great idea. So I just encourage anybody listening, if they want to get into real estate multifamily, just start a meetup. And this is literally how it went for me. I was doing single family, I had a larger meetup in town where I had, you know, been going for a number of years, I basically approached this person and said, Hey, let's start another meetup that's only multifamily. And all lead out do the work. And we'll lead it together. She said, sure. We started leading in the first meeting, we had 60 people there. And basically, I found my first investor there, he's like, I'd invest in you and one of your deals, I was like, I don't even have a deal. But I got together with him for coffee and showed him what a deal would look like. And then I introduced him to another guy I met at that same meeting. And so that kind of got me started. So I raised 100,000, for adeal, but it took a while before I found kind of the right partners, and it was really able to scale up after that.    Sam Wilson  03:42 Yeah. Talk to us about the partner search. I mean, you know, there's the life partner search, and there's the business partner search, and they both seem to take an inordinate amount of time. Tell me about the business partner search.   Bronson Hill  03:53 Yeah, so I think in general, when you're looking for partners, a few things. One is obviously character, you want to know you're working with somebody that you can trust, somebody that you know, has your interest in mind, will really have similar values to you. So I spent a lot of time a lot of people bring me a lot of deals, and they're like, I want to partner with you on this, or I want to work with you here. But I really come back to like is this somebody that I can trust and it takes time to figure that out. Reputation is huge. It's a pretty small industry. So I try to work with people that I know are that are kind of well known in our circle and I also do a background check on every partner as well just to see if there's something that I'm you know, I'm missing in that process. But I think in general, you know, being kind of looking at how you and what your strengths are. So my background was medical sales. And so there's kind of two routes people go either you find deals if you're more of an engineer type or you love numbers or CPA, you can kind of go the route of finding deals or networking brokers and kind of being more of the operations or you do you work with investors and create content and you're more of kind of a sales type of role. So those are kind of two routes for me I kind of realized you know, if I'm more on this side, I need to partner with people that are really good on the operation space. So I've got one of my partners now has over 10,000 units, has been doing it for 25 years has a great track record great experience. So my lack of experience in asset management is not a shortcoming, right, because I have a partner who's handling all of that, which is really great. So finding complementary partners, I think both in you know, as a life partner, as well as a business, I think is really important.   Sam Wilson  05:16 Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about raising money. I know, you said for the first deal, you raised 100,000 bucks. I mean, that doesn't go far in a multifamily investment.   Bronson Hill  05:25 Yeah. So yeah, the first that was something I left out there actually, one of the challenges, I went to all my friends and family, and I said, “Hey, we got this great multifamily deal.” And I had something like 62 conversations with friends and family, either in person or over the phone, and the questionnaire is everything, and I had literally zero, zero invest. And so you know, it's challenging to go from there to, you know, to get the 100, you know, it wasn't a lot of money. But what really got me going is I went to somebody that I saw really a lot of value from, and I basically said, “Hey, how's it going, you know, raising money,” because they were kind of more on the active side of teaching people how to syndicate, but they had a huge reach. And I was like, man, there's gonna be people on here that are doctors or lawyers, or retirees, they don't want to go buy a building. So they're gonna want to be more passive, but he just really wasn't focused on that. So I said, “Well, what if, you know, we created something here together, where we had kind of a funnel, and I would kind of do calls or kind of work with folks. And we kind of set up a way for people to get involved.” And so it really just, you know, dramatically increased the amount of money they were able to raise that we able to raise together, so instead of 600k, and having to do a second webinar, by the time, you know, year and a half later, we raised $8 million in 24 hours for a deal. And so I had about 1000 on-on-one phone calls with different investors to just, you know, try to qualify and kind of tee them up for the next deal. So that was a great learning experience for me to cut my teeth. It wasn't all you know, super easy. I was working full time while I was doing that. So I was taking calls at 6 am, sometimes at 6 pm. And just whenever I could find time to take these calls, it was crazy, but it was definitely worth it.   Sam Wilson  06:50 Yeah, that's really, really intriguing. And maybe we don't have to dig into the story too much. But I think that's one of the things that I think people commonly struggle with is finding the investors. So one of the things you did if I hear correctly, is you found someone with a potential investor database but wasn't really leveraging it for that. And that right.   Bronson Hill  07:09 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So we worked together for a couple of years on some stuff. And then I branched off on my own about a year and a half ago. And since then, we've just continued to, and we raised about $6 million, around 6 million in 2021. And so we keep going after it, but it just gave me a lot of experience. And so a lot of times people and I'm not I don't think mentorships are bad, I think they're good. And I think if somebody has a high net worth, and they're busy, and they need somebody to kind of push them into you can do that. But I also think if you just look around and go to somebody who's a high-value person, and you say how can I serve you, you can open up a lot of doors, it's amazing how it can open up doors.   Sam Wilson  07:38 Yeah, absolutely. The raise that you know, you guys have done in the past, or they've been 506(b)s, 506(c)s. And then why do you guys focus on one or the other?   Bronson Hill  07:47 Yeah, so we've done both, I've done a couple of 506(c)s  about a year ago. And 506(b)s, and they were good. I mean, it was kind of again, when I was more kind of launching my own thing. So I was working with this part. And I had kind of really launched Bronson Equity, which is my group. And so I did some advertising and different things. And it you know, it works. Okay, I think I think 506(b), you know, for kind of your network that you kind of privately share, people love the idea of like off-market deals or his special deal. But don't tell anybody kind of those kind of deals and so, but if I will succeed, the ones you can advertise or for credit only minute, they can be great, too, they have, the SEC has actually made it a little bit easier to where you don't have to verify accredited status as often as they once every five years. And then you can actually do some of it a little more. You don't have to always use third party, you can use documents. And you'd have to make sure that your data matters. I'm not an attorney to sort of that. But it's gotten a little bit easier in that area.   Sam Wilson  08:37 Yeah, that is interesting. And I've heard that stat before that it's every five years now. And yet, if you go to some of the third-party verification sites, they'll still tell you it's only good for 90 days. So I've never I haven't quite got the clarification on that. And maybe you and I can work on that when we get get off air. But one of the other things that you're doing right now, I think you're still running the weekly meetup. What are some other things you're doing right now to stay in front of investors?   Bronson Hill  09:03 Yeah, so we have a, we have a monthly meetup. It's in-person that's called FIBI. So if anybody's in Southern California, we are in the city of Pasadena. So we usually, we're getting back to it after COVID It's been much more shut down here that I'm sure where you're at. But at least I do that we do a monthly virtual event, which is either on inflation or it's about multifamily investing. We bring several operators in and those have been very well attended and a lot of great feedback. Those are also available on YouTube, which I do a lot on YouTube. And then I try to go to a lot of live events. So I as I mentioned, I was in an event last weekend, I'm had to do another one this weekend. And it's a great way I think to get eyeball with investors and just meet people with a lot of people don't really want to invest unless they've met you. I have people that literally found me on YouTube and watched my YouTube videos and invested which is amazing, right? But it's more uncommon than it is common and I think I do also do a podcast called the Mailbox Money Show, talking about different forms of passive investing. So I know your audience is a little more active, mine's more passive. So just a lot of professionals that are looking to, you know, reduce taxes, get out of Wall Street and find consistent returns.   Sam Wilson  10:05 Right. Man, I love that you're always working on deals. What are you doing right now? Especially in the multifamily space to find opportunity? Because it seems to be super competitive.   Bronson Hill  10:16 Yeah, so we closed about 1,000 doors last year. So we're growing a lot, we've got new stuff we're working on right now. And it's amazing when you're in a particular market deals can come to you. I mean, we got a deal recently that it was a completely off-market deal, so that we were the only ones at the table. And, you know, it's a very different experience than being one of 30 at the table or being one at, you know, one of 20 and having to try to make your case. But I think, you know, there's a couple of ways, you know, one is through relationships. One of my partners, as I mentioned, one who has, you know, 25 years experience knows a lot of people. And so we've bought some properties from one of these owners, and he's like, I've also got this other property, and it's, you know, property that's three $400 a month under rent. And we're just seeing that, you know, he just really didn't do a lot of work on it, were able to get it from this particular sellers, as long as it's your personal relationships with the seller. Other times, it's just you own the property next door, and the brokers are basically bringing the deals to you say, hey, you know, how can we make this work. And we found that everything's for sale at the right price, we actually had a property that we weren't planning to sell for five years, we bought it in Jacksonville, Florida, which is one of our main markets we work on, bought it for 27 million, bet last March, and it was 288 units, they're going to work in class apartments, we sold it nine months later, in December, for 37 and a half million, we made 10 and a half million, almost, you know, close to double the investor equity in a short amount of time. And we're able to 1031 the majority of those investors into another deal. So you know, it is hard to find deals, you know, markets are going crazy, but they are out there. And if you're willing to do the work, you're willing to network, you're willing to try and make offers and just keep going for you'll find something   Sam Wilson  11:47 Right, man. That's really, really intriguing. Talk to us. You know, I guess we've talked a little bit about markets. We've talked about raising capital, talking about some of the hiccups you had early on. Let's talk a little bit about inflation and where you see the multifamily market going. Let's talk about that for a second. Is that okay?    Bronson Hill  12:04 Yeah, so we talk a lot about inflation. Some are different events, something I'm a student of as well, you know, I think it's really important not just to look at real estate, or multifamily real estate, a lot of people that really lost their shorts in 2008, 2009, they weren't paying attention to kind of the overarching economics of what's happening, right. And there's some just incredible things happening, we've never seen, I mean, they've created about 40% of the currency in existence just in the last two years, right. And that's just staggering. So everything is going to cost more. So the long-term, you know, effect is very inflationary. The dollar itself has lost 98% of its value since the Fed came into existence in 1913. So we know it's going to continue to happen. There's no way to stop it. So long term, it's there. But you know, if interest rates rise, which is what everybody's talking about, will that cause asset prices in general to go down? I think in single family, it definitely could, multifamily maybe a little bit. But I think, in general inflation and rents typically go hand in hand, it's a little bit lagging for rents. But I think, you know, in general, if you have long term debt, or like a lot of the stuff we're doing now is three-year fixed rate stuff that you can extend, you know, kind of bridge debt that you can extend, I still think there will be options that you can handle, as long as they don't raise rates really sharply, which I don't think they're going to do I mean, inflation is going to keep going up, they're gonna kind of stagnate, they just don't want to raise rates too high and all of a sudden have things crashed. But it's a very interesting time right now. So you have these long-term inflationary factors, and then some short-term deflationary risks, but I think multifamily is gonna weather it really well.   Sam Wilson  13:28 Yeah, there's that. And then just like you said, the money printing, it's hard to say where this all winds up, what are some things you guys are doing just to make sure that your portfolio is buttoned uptight?   Bronson Hill  13:40 Yeah. So I think the biggest thing you know, we've stayed away from Class A stuff, you know, no offense to anybody who's doing Class A, but I think I personally think there's a lot of risk in Class A-type of apartments, people look at them. They're like, Oh, this is so beautiful. Look at all the amenities. I'd love to live there. They're brand new apartments, but the returns are way lower. And this is what a lot of REITs own. And so for example, where I live in Pasadena, California, two-bedroom right now will go for 4500 a month at some really high-end apartments, right. But if there's a recession, they're not going to get 4500, they might get 3,000, maybe. So that's going to dramatically affect the returns will be some losses there. So REITs will kind of go up during times like this, and then they will crest down. Now what we do, Warren Buffett has this principle, he talks about the Margin of Safety, right, you have some sort of kind of margin of safety, if things don't go the way you want, you want to create a margin of safety. And so one way is by being very conservative on the numbers that you're projecting, being more conservative, I'd much rather under promise and over-deliver. The second thing is the Value-add Approach in multifamily. So what that means is, you know, we don't just take brand new stuff, we're taking older stuff, we're seeing, you know, rent increases of $200. If we spend $10,000 per unit, we can see those rent increases. So what happens is, even if rents, in general, go down, we still have that, you know, we made these properties better, and so the rents should hopefully be higher than they would have been otherwise. So it puts a little more margin of safety. That's also why the returns for value-add multifamily are typically about twice what a lot of the class A or  the non, you know, stuff that you don't add value to as it's much higher.   Sam Wilson  15:07 Right. And the other thing with your value add is that if you get halfway through, you renovate half the units, and it's like, hey, look, you know, we got to pump the brakes, you don't have to pump that money into the property necessarily.   Bronson Hill  15:18 Yeah. And we're seeing that we're seeing sometimes, you know, the, this property I mentioned in Jacksonville, like we did a little bit of exterior work, we didn't really even get too much of the interior. And yet, we saw we already got to our number. So we're like, Okay, well, everything's for sale at the right price. So, you know, that will happen. And that's the thing, and you can test it out. So the other thing, we have another Jacksonville property we closed on about six months, five months ago, and we expected, you know, $200 a month rent bumps, what we're seeing after renovating 10 of these we're seeing about 350. So you know, again, it depends on where you're buying, but I like we'd like to buy in places where we see that population growth is business-friendly, landlord friendly, and warmer places. A lot of those kind of southeast markets.   Sam Wilson  15:56 Yeah, man, that's absolutely intriguing. What is one piece of advice you would give to somebody that is looking to scale like, what would you say to somebody said, “Hey, man, I want to get into multifamily. I want to follow in your footsteps?” What would you tell them?   Bronson Hill  16:08 Well, I think the biggest thing you can do is to go to events, go to meetups, go to especially I would say meetups are good if you're in a metro area, if not go to national events, go to events where there's going to be a lot of people there and just start asking questions and starting to hear and figure out what people do and what's their biggest challenge. And then also, instead of just asking, “Hey, you know, what's the biggest success? Or what's going well,” ask them, you know, especially if you start talking for a little bit, say, “Well, tell me about your biggest challenge or your biggest, you know, mistake or your biggest failure or something” and people will share, they'll say, oh, yeah, you know, this is gone. Well, but let me tell you a story. And I think you learn more from those stories. There's actually a saying that says, A wise man learns from their own mistakes, but a genius, learn from the mistakes of others. So if we get curious about that, it's amazing things that can open. But I do think the value of networking is just you cannot underestimate how powerful that can be.   Sam Wilson  16:55 Man, that's so funny, because not five minutes before this phone call, I had somebody email me. And they said, “Hey, man, I hear you're going to do such a conference here in a couple weeks. You know, this is my position in business. I'm not really seeing the value in it. And I just kind of wrote back and I'm like, dude, like, here's the three reasons I always go to these large national events. And it's not for the any of the reasons you said that, you know, you don't need to go” so anyway, I second your wholeheartedly. Second your comment there that? Yeah, go to big events. It's amazing what you can learn just by being in the room. Yeah, I percent. That's fantastic. I think it's actually where you and I finally met here face to face not a month ago. So yeah, that's tons of fun. Let's jump here to the Final Four Questions Bronson. First one is this: What is one tool or resource you find you can't live without?   Bronson Hill  17:42 I think one tool or resource that I use a lot. There's a video service I use for some of the content production that I do, because I you know, my businesses creating, whether it's podcasts or different things like that, there's a kind of a screen recording service called Vidyard. And some people might say it has nothing to do with real estate, but it records your screen as you're kind of going through, you know, pointing things out, it's really helpful. Rather than having to get on a call with somebody to be able to kind of explain a process or even with an investor, I've had to do that with here's how you get on your portal. And here's how you do and if you're working with busy people, any way you can kind of explain things and create a replicatable process. So when you have that question again, you can already just say, Oh, I've got this and just send it over there, right?   Sam Wilson  18:20 Right. Yeah, that's absolutely tremendous. And yes, you hit it nail on the head, and especially something where they can hit play. It's on-demand at that point, yeah, you're not going to get on a call. So that's what is one mistake you can help our listeners avoid, and how would you avoid it?   Bronson Hill  18:34 I think the biggest challenge that we've had over the years, we had a property that just mean no easy way to say it, we just got the wrong property manager. And I think one thing I learned from this particular situation was don't try to bring a great property manager to a new market now that people will do and they'll do fine with it. I've seen that a couple times, not just in my own deals, but other people's deals. And so I like to see who's got established relationships, it's the relationships with vendors in the market with staff with other things, if they're from another market, even if it's two hours away, it's going to be really hard sometimes to find new people, staff members for the property or even vendors that come in and work and I've just seen it, and these property managers will be very, “Oh come in” and we'll do this and everyone's to expand but I just prefer not to be the first one that they're expanding on. You know, so that's, I think the biggest thing.   Sam Wilson  19:18 That's a great piece of advice. Question number three: When it comes to investing in the world, what's one thing you're doing right now to make the world a better place?   Bronson Hill  19:25 Yeah, so my big why is really trying to stop human trafficking in the world. So today 2022, there are 20 to 40 million human slaves in the world more than there's ever been in history of the world. And there's, you know, sexual human slavery, there's labor, slavery, there's different things and I've just gotten really involved as a cause I am involved with called Dressember. Actually, my sister started this and they raised about 25 million for fighting human trafficking for creating awareness advocacy, and that's at dressember.org. People can check that out.    Sam Wilson  19:56 How do you spell that?    Bronson Hill  19:57 So just the word dress so like D-R-E-S-S-E-M-B-E-R, so it's in the month of December, they do it so they can find the word dress with December but guys wear bow ties, women's wear dresses during the month of December and it's a way that you can create awareness and try to stop human trafficking.   Sam Wilson  20:14 That's very good. Thanks, Bronson. Last question for you. If our listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Bronson Hill  20:21 Yeah, so I created this special report. It's called the Single Best Investing Strategy During and After a Pandemic, 24 colored pages. I just talk about a lot of the kind of the unfair advantages of multifamily investing. If somebody is interested in you know, talking about you know, partnership or looking at, you know, investing or just looking to kind of learn how to get moving, you can check out at Bronsonequity.com.   Sam Wilson  20:41 Thank you so much, Bronson. Have a great day.    Bronson Hill  20:43 Hey, Sam, thanks for having it was a great time.    Sam Wilson  20:45 Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen, if you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners, as well as rank higher on those directories. So I appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

When it comes to COVID: It's complicated. Listen in as the esteemed Dr. Galland and I discuss long haul COVID and offer solutions.

When it comes to COVID: It's complicated. Listen in as the esteemed Dr. Galland and I discuss long haul COVID and offer solutions.

Gavin Andrews – How to Remain Heart-centered and Stress-free in 2022Aired Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 4:00 PM PST / 7:00 PM EST If there's one term we've heard more frequently over the past two years than the word “Covid”… It's “stress,” which medicine has long known to be a primary factor in up to 90% of all disease.Just like Covid, stress is a potential killer. Unlike Covid, however, there is no vaccination that can safeguard your body against the devastating immune system-suppressing effects of stress. But there are better, less invasive, and far more empowering innovations that can help you boost your health and well being and reduce stress naturally while living more fully from your heart AND adding more heart to the worldJoining Sandie this week to tell us more about this is Gavin Andrews. The managing director for HeartMath in the UK and Ireland; Gavin is the founder & co-founder of two exciting new initiatives: WeAddHeart, which is a growing international movement that's empowering people to connect with their heart and the hearts of others, and Syntropy States, an exciting new app that blends mesmerizing art and music therapy with science to deliver the immune boosting benefits of breathwork, relaxation and meditation to safely & quickly reduce stress & pain, improve cardio-respiratory function, aid sleep, regulate your emotions, and bring your body mind, and spirit to a state of peaceful calm.Connect with Gavin at https://www.weaddheart.com/ | https://www.heartmath.co.uk/ | https://www.syntropystates.com/Visit the What Is Going OM show page https://omtimes.com/iom/shows/what-is-going-omConnect with Sandie Sedgbeer at https://www.sedgbeer.com#GavinAndrews #WhatIsGoingOM #SandieSedgbeer #LifestyleSubscribe to our Newsletter https://omtimes.com/subscribe-omtimes-magazine/Connect with OMTimes on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Omtimes.Magazine/ and OMTimes Radio https://www.facebook.com/ConsciousRadiowebtv.OMTimes/Twitter: https://twitter.com/OmTimes/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/omtimes/Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/2798417/Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/omtimes/

DTE– The Powerless Co. – The Kila-Gig is Up – December 17, 2021 Santa's not coming to Michigan. The price of magic acorns is through the roof and the power is out again. Why? We've got the report. Plus, the truth behind Covid- It's still an old people pandemic. Once a pedophile, always a pedophile. […]

The primary theme of October 2021 was LET'S GO BRANDON which is a reaction to the national Democrats' and Biden's continued push to destroy the country. Economically - They continued to push inflationary economic policies and encourage the ongoing supply chain disruption. Jerome Powell and Janet Yellen are despicable and willfully negligent. Covid - It's one lie after another - Gain of function, the spread of the virus, the boosters, children's vaccine, vaccine related deaths and adverse effects, therapeutic treatments, and natural immunity. To name a few. Constitutionally - They ignore and spit on the Constitution as a matter of course but their legislative proposal to grant the IRS access to our bank accounts and the vaccine mandates top the list for October. Politically - The dual justice system was alive and well. Open borders (i.e. the Democrats' voter drive) continued as did the projection of weakness to geopolitical foes. Culturally - They continued their destructive divide-and-conquer electoral strategy with one set of rules for illegal immigrants and one for legal citizens. Show Notes Truth Quest Podcast mentions: Episode #141 - The Truth About Antifa Episode #169 - The Truth About the Facebook Whistleblower Episode #170 - The Truth About the Supply Chain Disruptions Episode #172 - The Truth About January 6 The Truth Quest Podcast Patron Page Join the conversation at The Truth Quest Facebook Fan Page Order a copy of one of my books, Pritical Thinking, The Proverbs Project, The Termite Effect. The video of this episode is available on Rumble, BitChute and Brighteon. Check out short highlight videos of each episode on Instagram.  

This is the Learning by Proxy podcast for Edition 66. If you do not enjoy reading long-form, get the gist of it in about 10 minutes (or that was the hope). This time in the podcast - Philanthropy - The smokescreen that allows you to get away with murderSolar Energy - Are we selling India's energy sector to Reliance?COVID - It just won't go away!You can find the whole blog at this link.Also, follow me on Twitter @viveksrn to know when the newsletter drops.What we think, we become ~ BuddhaYou can follow my podcasts here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.learningbyproxy.com

"Long COVID" is the name for the phenomenon experienced by people who have "recovered" from COVID-19 but are still suffering from symptoms months after the virus invaded their bodies. In this episode, listen to highlights from a 7 hour hearing in Congress about Long COVID so that you can recognize the disease and know where to turn for treatment. Even if you didn't catch the rona yourself, Long COVID is far more common that you probably think and is almost certainly going to affect someone you know. Executive Producer: Michael Constantino Please Support Congressional Dish – Quick Links Click here to contribute monthly or a lump sum via PayPal Click here to support Congressional Dish via Patreon (donations per episode) Send Zelle payments to: Donation@congressionaldish.com Send Venmo payments to: @Jennifer-Briney Send Cash App payments to: $CongressionalDish or Donation@congressionaldish.com Use your bank's online bill pay function to mail contributions to: 5753 Hwy 85 North, Number 4576, Crestview, FL 32536 Please make checks payable to Congressional Dish Thank you for supporting truly independent media! Recommended Episodes CD145: The Price of Health Care Articles/Documents Article: Why Impact of ‘Long Covid' Could Outlast the Pandemic, By Jason Gale, Bloomberg, The Washington Post, June 8, 2021 Article: Long covid has lasted over a year for 376,000 people in the UK, By NewScientist, June 4, 2021 Article: Long-COVID-19 Patients Are Getting Diagnosed With Rare Illnesses Like POTS, By Cindy Loose, Kaiser Health News, TIME, May 27, 2021 Article: Long Covid symptoms ease after vaccination, survey finds, By Natalie Grover, The Guardian, May 18, 2021 Article: A pandemic that endures for COVID long-haulers, By Alvin Powell, The Harvard Gazette, April 13, 2021 Article: Atlantic Council urges Biden to enforce regime change in Belarus, By Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Service News Release: Secretary Sebelius Announces Senate Confirmation of Dr. Francis Collins as Director of the National Institutes of Health, National Institutes of Health, August 7, 2009 Sound Clip Sources Hearing: THE LONG HAUL: FORGING A PATH THROUGH THE LINGERING EFFECTS OF COVID–19, House Committee on Energy and Commerce, April 28, 2021 Watch on Youtube Witnesses: Francis Collins, M.D., Ph. D. Director of the National Institutes of Health John T. Brooks, M.D. Chief Medical Officer for COVID-19 Response at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Steven Deeks, M.D. Professor of Medicine at the University of California, San Francisco Jennifer Possick, M.D. Associate Professor at Yale School of Medicine Director of Post-COVID Recovery Program at the Winchester Center for Lung Disease at Yale-New Haven Hospital Natalie Hakala COVID patient Lisa McCorkell COVID patient Chimere Smith COVID patient Transcript: 1:01:34 Francis Collins: We've heard troubling stories all of us have people who are still suffering months after they first came down with COVID-19, some of whom initially had very few symptoms or even none at all. And yet today these folks are coping with a long list of persistent problems affecting many different parts of the body, fatigue, brain fog, disturbed sleep, shortness of breath, palpitations, persistent loss of taste and smell, muscle and joint pain, depression and many more 1:02:35 Francis Collins: I would like to speak directly to the patient community. Some of you have been suffering for more than a year with no answers, no treatment options, not even a forecast of what your future may hold. Some of you have even faced skepticism about whether your symptoms are real. I want to assure you that we at NIH hear you and believe you. If you hear nothing else today here that we are working to get answers that will lead to ways to relieve your suffering. 1:03:13 Francis Collins: New data arrived every day. But preliminary reports suggested somewhere between 10 to 30% of people infected with SARS COVID2 to may develop longer term health issues. To get a solid measure of the prevalence, severity and persistence of Long COVID we really need to study 10s of 1000s of patients. These folks should be diverse, not just in terms of the severity of their symptoms and type of treatment received, but in age, sex, race and ethnicity. To do this rapidly, we are launching an unprecedented metacohort. What is that? Well, an important part of this can be built on existing longitudinal community based cohorts are also the electronic health records of large healthcare systems. These resources already include 10s of 1000s of participants who've already contributed years worth of medical data, many of them will by now suffer from long COVID. This approach will enable us to hit the ground running, giving researchers access to existing data that can quickly provide valuable insights on who might be most at risk, how frequently individual symptoms occur, and how long they last. 1:04:24 Francis Collins: Individuals suffering with long COVID including those from patient led collaborative groups will be invited to take part in intensive investigation of different organ systems to understand the biology of those symptoms. Our goal is to identify promising therapies and then test them in these volunteers. 1:05:07 Francis Collins: Finally we need a cohort for children in adolescence. That's because kids can also suffer from long COVID and we need to learn more about how that affects their development. 1:05:35 Francis Collins: As we recruit volunteers, we will ask them to share their health information in real time with mobile health apps and wearable devices. 1:08:09 John Brooks: Although standardized case definitions are still being developed, CDC uses the umbrella term Post COVID conditions to describe health issues that persist for more than four weeks after a person is first infected with SARS-CoV-2 to the virus that causes COVID-19. Based on our studies to date, CDC has distinguished three general types or categories of post COVID conditions, although I want to caution that the names and classifications may change as we learn more. The first called Long COVID involves a range of symptoms that can last for months. The second comprises long term damage to one or more body systems or an organ and the third consists of complications from prolonged treatment or hospitalization. 1:09:45 John Brooks: Among these efforts are prospective studies that will follow cohorts of patients for up to two years to provide information on the proportion of people who develop post COVID conditions and assess risk factors for their development. 1:10:00 John Brooks: CDC is also working with multiple partners to conduct online surveys about long term symptoms and using multiple de-identified electronic health record databases to examine healthcare utilization of patient populations after initial infection. 1:20:21 John Brooks: Not only are there persons who develop post COVID symptoms, who we later through serology or testing recognizes having had COVID. But there's also there also were people who develop these post COVID conditions who have no record of testing, and we can't determine that they had COVID. So we've got to think carefully about what that how to manage that when we're coming up with a definition for what a post COVID condition is. 1:20:55 John Brooks: One of the most important things is to make sure that this condition is recognized. We need to make sure that folks know what they're looking at, as you've heard it's sort of protean. There are all sorts of different ways. Maybe we'll talk about this later. But the symptoms and ways that people present are very varied. And people need to be thinking, could this be post COVID and also taking patients at their word. You know, we've heard many times of patients have been ignored or their symptoms minimized, possibly because they didn't recognize that and COVID previously. 1:24:33 John Brooks: It's common, it could be as common as two out of every three patients. Study we recently published in our flagship journal, the Morbidity and Mortality weekly report suggested two out of three patients made a clinical visit within one to six months after their COVID diagnosis. So that is unprecedented, but people who've recovered from the flu or a cold don't typically make a scheduled visit a month later. It does seem that for some people, that condition gets better but there are definitely a substantial fraction of persons in whom this is going on for months. 1:25:37 Francis Collins: Basically what we did was to think of all of the ways in which we could try to get answers to this condition by studying people, both those who already have self identified as having long COVID, as well as people who just went through the experience of having the acute illness to see what's the frequency with which they ended up with these persistent symptoms. And if you look around sort of what would be the places where you'd find such large scale studies, one would be like we were just talking about a minute ago, with Mr. Guthrie, the idea of these long standing cohort studies, Framingham being another one where you have lots of people who have been followed for a long time, see if you can learn from them who got long COVID. And what might have been a predisposing factor that's part of the medical work. You could also look at people who have been in our treatment trials, because there are 1000s of them that have enrolled in these clinical trials. And they've got a particular treatment applied like a monoclonal antibody, for instance, it would be really interesting to see if that had an effect on how many people ended up with long COVID did you prevent it, if you treated somebody acutely with a monoclonal antibody, and then there are all these patient support groups, and you'll be hearing more for them in the second panel, were highly motivated, already have collected a lot of data themselves as citizen scientists, we want to tap into that experience and that wise advice about how to design and go through the appropriate testing of all this. So you put those all together, and that's a metacohort, where you have different kinds of populations that are all put together in a highly organized way with a shared database and a shared set of common data elements so we can learn as quickly as possible. 1:32:59 John Brooks: Extreme fatigue. I mean fatigue, as you probably heard, so bad, you can't get out of bed, it makes it impossible for you to work and limits your social life, anxiety and depression, lingering, chronic difficulty breathing with either cough or shortness of breath. That loss of smell persists for a very long time, which incidentally is particularly unique to this infection to the best I know. 1:37:10 Francis Collins: So the idea of trying to assemble such a large scale effort from multiple different kinds of populations of patients, is our idea about how to do this quickly and as vigorously and accurately as possible. But it won't work if we can't actually compare across studies and figure out what we're looking at. So part of this is the ability to define what we call common data elements, where the individuals who are going to be enrolled in these trials from various sources have the same data collected using the same formats so that you can actually say, if somebody had shortness of breath, how did you define that? If somebody had some abnormality in a lab test, what were the units of the lab test that everybody will agree so you can do apples to apples comparisons? That's already underway, a part of this metacohort is also to have three core facilities. One of those is a clinical sciences core, which will basically come up with what are the clinical measures that we want to be sure we do accurately on everybody who's available for those to be done. Another is the data sciences core, which will work intensively on these common data elements and how to build a data set that is both preserving the privacy and confidentiality of the participants, because these are people who are human subject participants in a trial, and also making sure that researchers have access to information that they can quickly learn from. And then there's a third core, which is a bio repository where we are going to be obtaining blood samples and other kinds of samples. And we want to be sure those are accurately and safely stored. So they can be utilized for follow up research. All of that has to fold into this. And so I'm glad you asked that question. That is the mechanism by which we aim to make the whole greater than the sum of the parts here even though the parts are pretty impressive. The whole is going to be pretty amazing. 1:41:03 Francis Collins: Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the launch of RADX, Rapid Acceleration and Diagnostics. Another program made possible by the Congress by providing us with some additional funds to be able to build new platforms for technology to detect the presence of that SARS COVID-2 virus, increasingly being able to do those now as point of care instead of having to send your sample off to a central laboratory. And even now doing home testing, which is now just in the last month or so become a reality and that's RADX that developed those platforms. 1:41:30 Francis Collins: It was a pretty amazing experience actually. 1:41:40 Francis Collins: We basically built what we call the shark tank. And we became venture capitalists. And we invited all of those people who had really interesting technology ideas to bring them forward. And the ones that looked most promising, got into the shark tank and got checked out by business people, engineers, various other kinds of technology experts, people who knew about supply chains and manufacturing and all of that to make sure that we put the funds into the ones that were most promising. And right now, today, Congressman, there's about 2 million tests being done today, as a result of RADX that otherwise would not have been. 2 million a day, or 34 different technologies that we put through this innovation funnel. And that has opened up a lot of possibilities for things like getting people back to school where you have testing capacity that we didn't have before. 1:42:32 Francis Collins: What did we learn about that that applies to long COVID? Well, one thing I learned was we can do things at NIH in really novel ways that move very quickly when we're faced with a crisis like COVID-19 pandemic, we're applying that same mentality to this effort on long COVID normally would have taken us more than a year to set up this kind of metacohort. We're doing it in a couple of months because we need to utilizing some of those same mechanisms that you gave us in the 21st Century CARES bill, which has been a critical part of our ability to move swiftly through something called Other Transactions Authority. 1:43:16 Francis Collins: You saw in the President's budget proposal for FY-22, something called ARPA H, which is basically bringing the DARPA attitude to health that also builds on these experiences and will give us, if approved by the Congress, the ability to do even more of these very rapid, very ambitious, yes, high risk, but high reward efforts as we have learned to do in the face of COVID and want to continue to do for other things like Alzheimer's disease, or cancer or diabetes, because there's lots of opportunities there, too. 2:02:53 John Brooks: The number of people seeking care after recovering from COVID is really unprecedented. And it's not just people who had severe COVID it may include people had very mild COVID and in fact, we know there's a number of people who never had symptomatic COVID who then get these long symptoms. 2:03:09 John Brooks: Just historically, the other disease I can think of that may have a little analogy to this is polio. It was a more devastating sequentially that people lived with the rest of their lives. But it was thanks to the enrollment of some early cohorts of these patients followed over the course of their life, that when post polio syndrome later came up in the population, we had the wherewithal to begin to understand it. And it happens with been a condition in many ways, sharing some characteristics of this post COVID condition. 2:16:33 Francis Collins: The virus has been evolving. So one question is, how long will you be immune to the same virus that infected you the first time. And we think that's probably quite a few months. But then are you immune to a variant of that virus that emerges like the one called B117, which now is almost 60% of the isolates we're seeing in the United States after it ran through the UK and then came to us, that degree of immunity will be somewhat lower. The good news here, though, is that, and this may surprise people, the vaccine actually provides you with better broad immunity, then the natural infection, and you don't quite expect that to be the case. Usually, you would think natural infection is going to be the way that revs your immune system to the max and the vaccine is like the second best, it's flipped around the other way in this case, and I think that's because the vaccine really gets your immune system completely awake. Whereas the natural infection might just be in your nose or your respiratory tree and didn't get to the rest of your body. With a vaccine. We think that immunity lasts at least six months. But is it longer than that? We don't know yet because this disease hasn't been around long enough to find that out. And so far, the vaccines, the Pfizer, the Moderna, do seem to be capable of protecting against the variants that are now emerging in the US like this B117. 2:26:09 John Brooks: Anosmia are the loss of smell or change and smell is an often overlooked, but surprisingly common problem among people. This disease really seems to target that and cause it. I can say this, you know, I've been I've had a particular interest in this topic, the reading that I've been doing seems to suggest that the virus isn't necessarily targeting the olfactory nerves, the nerves that transmit smell, but more of the nerves that are sort of around in supporting those nerve cells, and it's the swelling and the inflammation around those cells that seems to be leading to some kind of neurologic injury. I will say the good news is that many people will eventually recover their sense of smell or taste, but there are others in whom this is going to be a permanent change in terms of treatment, smell training, interesting therapy, but it really works. And it's I really want to raise people's awareness around that because the earlier you can begin smell training, the better the chances that you'll recover your sense of smell. 2:43:13 John Brooks: We hold regular webinars and calls for clinicians they can call into these often are attended by 1000s of providers. We use these as an opportunity to raise awareness because I think you made a really critical point that patients feel like their doctors don't recognize their problem or they don't accept that it's possible they have this condition. We use those calls and webinars to raise awareness that this is a real entity. We also then publish papers and put out guidelines that illustrate how to diagnose and begin to pull together what we know about management. 2:52:27 Francis Collins: But it certainly does seem that the risk of developing Long COVID goes up. It's fairly clear that the initial seriousness of the initial illness is somewhat of a predictor. Certainly people are in the hospital have a higher likelihood of long COVID than people who stayed out of the hospital but people who weren't hospitalized can still get it. It's just at a somewhat lower rate. 2:53:07 Francis Collins: Risk factors. older age people higher likelihood, women have a slightly higher chance of developing long COVID than men. BMI, obesity also seems to be a risk for the likelihood of long COVID. Beyond that, we're not seeing a whole lot of things that are predictive. And there must be things we don't know about yet. That would give you a chance to understand who's most vulnerable, to not be able to just get this virus out of there and be completely better, but we don't know the answer is just yet. 3:29:30 Francis Collins: First of all, let me say anxiety and depression is a very common feature of long COVID. But there are instances of actual induction of new psychoses sees individuals who previously were normally functioning who actually fall really into a much more serious psychiatric illness. We assume there's must be some way in which this virus has interfered with the function of the brain maybe by affecting vascular systems or some other means of altering the the way in which the brain normally works. But we have so little information right now about what that actual anatomic mechanism might be. And that's something we have to study intensively. 3:33:13 Francis Collins: When you look at what is the likelihood that somebody who is just diagnosed with COVID-19 is going to go on too long COVID It looks as if it's a bit higher for older people, but on the other hand, they're more young people getting infected. So if you go through the mathematics, you can see why it is that long. COVID seems to be particularly prominent now. And younger people who may not have been very sick at all with the acute infection, some of them had minimal symptoms at all, but now are turning up with this. 3:34:10 Francis Collins: We have 32 million people who've been diagnosed with the acute infection. SARS-COVI-2 to COVID-19. Let's say 10% is right. That means there are 3 million people going to be affected with this are already are and whose long term course is uncertain and may very well be end up being people with chronic illnesses. 3:35:07 John Brooks: It's a great opportunity to remind young people they're not immune to this right? This is really the audience you want to reach. Vaccination is something you should strongly consider. This affects people like you. 3:44:06 John Brooks: Some of the symptoms are the ones you see in adults, as you would expect, particularly pulmonary conditions, persistent shortness of breath, maybe cough, as well as persistent fatigue. There is also some evidence that he experienced what is called a brain fog, but it's probably some issue or probably neurocognitive in nature. And this is important for kids when they're growing and developing that, that we understand what's happening there because we don't want that to impair their ability to learn and grow properly. 4:35:54 Lisa McCorkell: I'm testifying today as a long COVID patient and as a member at the leadership team of the patient led research collaborative, a group of long COVID patients with backgrounds in research, policy and data analysis, who were the first to conduct research on Long COVID. My symptoms began on March 14 2020. Like many of what we call first waivers, I was not afforded a COVID test, because at the time tests were limited to hospitalized patients and those with shortness of breath, cough and fever, the last of which I didn't have. I was told that I had to isolate and within two weeks I'd be recovered. A month later, I was in worse health than in that initial stage. I couldn't walk more than 20 seconds without having trouble breathing, my heart racing and being unable to get out of bed the rest of the day. 4:37:18 Lisa McCorkell: Our ost recent survey asked about 205 symptoms over seven months and received almost 7000 responses. In our recent paper, 92% of respondents were not hospitalized, but still experienced symptoms in nine out of 10 organ systems on average. We found that patients in their seventh month of illness still experienced 14 symptoms on average. Most commonly reported were fatigue, post exertional, malaise and cognitive dysfunction. In fact, 88% experienced cognitive dysfunction and memory loss impacting their ability to work, communicate and drive. We found that this was as likely an 18 to 29 year olds as those over 60. Lesser known symptoms include tremors, reproductive changes, months long fevers and vertigo. Over two thirds require a reduced work schedule or cannot work at all due to their health condition. 86% experienced relapses were exerting themselves physically or mentally can result in a host of symptoms returning. 4:38:14 Lisa McCorkell: Long COVID is complex, debilitating and terrifying. But patients aren't just dealing with their symptoms. They're dealing with barriers to care, financial stability and recovery. Due to the lack of a positive COVID test alone, patients are being denied access to post COVID clinics, referrals to specialists, health insurance coverage, COVID related paid leave, workers comp, disability benefits, workplace accommodations and participation in research. When we know that not everyone had access to COVID testing that PCR tests have false negative rates of 20 to 40%. That antibody tests are more accurate on men and people over 40 and that multiple studies have shown that there's no difference in symptoms between those with the positive test and those without. Why are we preventing people who are dealing with real symptoms from accessing what they need to survive? 4:39:00 Lisa McCorkell: Even with a positive test patients are still being denied benefits or have to wait months until they kick in. Medical bills are piling up. People are being forced to choose between providing for themselves and their family and doing what's best for their body. 4:39:58 Lisa McCorkell: The stimulus checks that you all provided us to get through the pandemic. I do really appreciate them. But every cent of mine was spent on urgent care and doctor's visits where I was repeatedly told that mycotic cardio my inability to exercise and brain fog was caused by anxiety and there was no way that I could have had COVID since I didn't have a positive test. 4:41:37 Jennifer Possick: I hope to share my perspective as a pulmonologist caring for people with post COVID disease including Long COVID. So in Connecticut, the surge initially arrived in March of 2020. And within weeks thereafter, people were reaching out to us about patients who remained profoundly short of breath after their acute illness had passed. My colleagues and I were struck by how difficult it was to tell the difference between people recovering from mild, acute COVID and those who had required ICU level care. Both groups had the physical, cognitive and psychological fallout we would expect from a critical illness or a prolonged intubation. And in addition to being short of breath, they reported a host of other symptoms. I saw a teacher who had recurrent bouts of crushing chest pain, mimicking a heart attack, a young mother, who would have racing heartbeat and dizziness every time she played with her toddler, a local business owner who couldn't remember the names of his long term customers or balance his books, and a home health aide who didn't have the stamina or strength to assist her elderly clients. 4:42:53 Jennifer Possick: We've spent this year learning alongside our patients, about half of whom are never hospitalized. They are mostly working age, previously high functioning. Many were frontline or essential workers. Many were initially disbelieved. Their quality of life has been seriously impacted. Some can't walk to the mailbox or remember a shopping list, much less resume their everyday lives and work. 4:43:16 Jennifer Possick: They've used up their paid sick leave. They've cut back their hours they have left or lost jobs. They have difficulty accessing workman's compensation benefits and FMLA or securing workplace accommodations. Some have even cut back on food, rent or utilities to pay for mounting medical expenses. 4:44:03 Jennifer Possick: Consensus practice supports many forms of rehabilitation services but insurance approval and coverage have been beyond challenging and demand outpaces availability in any case. For patients with ongoing oxygen needs, requests for portable oxygen concentrators can be delayed or even denied complicating physical recovery and mobility. 4:44:27 Jennifer Possick: We are a well resourced program at an academic medical center. But we are swamped by the need in our community. This year, we have seen more patients with post COVID-19 conditions in our clinic alone then we have new cases of asthma and COPD combined. Looking ahead, the magnitude of the challenge is daunting. There are over 31 million survivors of acute COVID-19 in the United States, and we don't know how many people will be affected, what kind of care they will need, or how long, or what kind of care that will entail or how long they'll need it. Research will ultimately help us to understand the origin of the symptoms and to identify effective treatment, but in the meantime, their care cannot wait. 4:49:37 Steven Deeks: First, we don't have a way of measuring this, right? Everyone everyone has got a cohort or a clinic measures it differently. They report stuff differently. As a consequence, the epidemiology is a mess, right? We don't really have a good sense of what's going on we need and this has been said before, a general consensus on how to define the syndrome, how to measure it and study so that we can all basically be saying the same thing. Deeks we don't know prevanlence Deeks we don't know prevanlen... 270.5 KB 4:50:06 Steven Deeks: We don't really know the prevalence of either the minimally symptomatic stuff or the very symptomatic stuff. 4:50:27 Steven Deeks: Women in almost every cohort, women are more likely to get this than the men. And This to me is probably the strongest hint that we have in terms of the biology, because women in general are more susceptible to many autoimmune diseases and we know why. And so paying attention to that fact why it's more common in women I think is providing very important insights into the mechanism and is directing how we are going about our science to identify therapies. 4:51:09 Steven Deeks: The same time people are getting acute COVID. They're living in a society that's broken. There's lots of social isolation. There's lots of depression, there's lots of people struggling, who did not have COVID. And the way this social economic environment that we're living in, has interacted with this acute infection is likely contributing to what's happening in ways that are very important but I think ultimately going to be hard to untangle and something that has not been discussed. 6:00:36 Jennifer Possick: I don't think that we can broadly say that there is any treatment that is working for all patients. We don't have that answer yet. As Dr. Deeks had suggested, there are things we try empirically. Sometimes they work for some patients other times not, but we're not in a position yet to say that this is the regimen, this is the treatment that works. Cover Art Design by Only Child Imaginations Music Presented in This Episode Intro & Exit: Tired of Being Lied To by David Ippolito (found on Music Alley by mevio)

Are you looking for ways to improve your mental health and the mental health of your team members? Do you want ideas on ways to lead effectively after COVID? Our special guest Ian Adair answers these and other questions about leadership, mental health and workplace mental health. Ian Adair is a nonprofit industry influencer, TEDx speaker, and recognized expert in leadership, fundraising, and nonprofit management. Ian is a speaker, author and advocate concerning mental health awareness and addressing mental health in the workplace. He's the author of Stronger Than Stigma. A Call to Action: Stories of Grief, Loss and Inspiration! Ian Adair is the Executive Director of the Gracepoint Foundation, the philanthropic arm of Gracepoint – one of the largest mental health organizations in Florida. Gracepoint impacts the lives of more than 30,000 individuals (children and adults) each year seeking mental health, medical, and addiction services in the Tampa Bay area. In 2016, Ian was chosen as one of the Top 100 Must-Follow Giving Influencers on Twitter by Give Local America. In 2019, Ian was named of the Top 100 Charity Industry Influencers on Social Media in the world by Onalytica, an influencer relationship software company in London. In 2020, Ian was recognized as one of the 30 Nonprofit Founders that will impact the World by Causeartist, a global community and social enterprise platform. Show Notes Episode highlights… Understanding the state of mental health in the United States including its financial impact The role of stigma in limiting people from seeking support The trouble with self-diagnosing mental health conditions and challenges The interrelationships between mental health and physical health People take an average of 8-10 years to seek help for mental health issues Understanding the two types of stigmas – social stigma and self-perceived stigma Gender differences and mental health conditions (and impacts) Being high functioning doesn't mean you aren't suffering with mental health conditions The importance of opening up the conversation around suicide (data we can't ignore) Relationship impacts of suicide Reasons we avoid conversations about mental health, suicide, etc. The bottom-line impacts of mental health on your organization and business (No. 1 reason for loss of productivity and absenteeism) Understanding the changes in our workforce and the impact of these changes on mental health and what employees desire in support The reality and mental health impact of toxic work cultures Leaders as culture caretakers in organizations Mental health and remote working Leadership and team challenges in transitioning out of COVID It's vital to understand what your people want The human and financial impact of normalizing conversations about mental health in the workplace The importance of creating a safe work environment for your people including emotional and psychological safety The best mental health support you can offer is to just listen Resources: Ian Adair Twitter Ian Adair Instagram Stronger Than Stigma Book (Ian Adair) Oh Great One Book by David Novak The Leadership Junkies Podcast Cardivera

"Remember to engage with intention and decline with wisdom." - Angela Chee Amidst a global pandemic and in the face of so much uncertainty, how can we thrive in these polarizing times? Today's episode is all about you and me. Let's have a heart to heart. If you're anything like me, you have a lot of your mind right now -- and on top of all that, there are so many distractions at the moment. You're not alone. All of us are dealing with this intensity in the world and in our businesses and our personal lives. It's time to quit coping and learn how to thrive. "If you see a headline that upsets you, it's done its job." - Angela Chee On today's show, I talk about the three key things that you need to know in order to thrive during these challenging times. I discuss ways to protect your energy and mental health, how to be a powerful communicator, and why it's so important to conquer media literacy. I explain how to stay focused during a pandemic, ways to speak from the heart, and how to protect your mental energy. “Understanding what you need first isn't selfish." - Angela Chee Show Notes: How to stay focused during a pandemic Ways to speak from the heart How to improve your communication skills How to protect your mental energy How to make sense of the headlines How to thrive during COVID "It's important for all of us to understand how the media works -- starting with looking at the headlines." - Angela Chee 3 Pieces of Advice or Action Steps: Protect your energy and mental health Be a powerful communicator Conquer media literacy Brand and Resource Mentions: Coach Jenny Fenig Shareable Podcast with Jeff Gibbard -Embrace Your Power Of The Only (media literacy discussion at 12:15 in) Freedom App YOU, Amplified! Video Training Series-7 Steps To Always Ready, Confidence, Clarity and Connection  Thanks for being a part of this bold and powerful conversation on The Power of The Only! Learn more about this episode of The Power of The Only with Angela Chee at www.angelachee.com/24

[1:11] Hockey is coming back![5:03] The Human Impact[7:21] The Authentic Canadian Experience[10:00] Building multiple  lines of business, brands & partnerships in Edmonton[16:10] Figuring out how to navigate COVID[18:25] The YEG Hustle - Edmonton's Entrepreneur Collective (How & Why it all started)[26:01] COVID - It's not your fault, you didn't do anything wrong[29:00] How Jay wants to be remembered.------"The Human impact of having hockey back is huge.""Our audience wants to support us.""When we look back and people ask what you did to pivot we are going to say we launched a beer.""I use fear as a motivator.""Sometimes you just gotta push through the shit to unlock the good.""You can never underestimate the power of giving."