The 1958 Lawyer

Patrick Carver is the Owner of Constellation Marketing, a digital marketing company that focuses on driving growth for law firms using web design, advertising and other tools. In this episode, Ron and Patrick talked about how you can take advantage of the many facets of digital marketing today. Patrick shared how a law firm can attract clients by doing sustainable and organic practices like making articles that are tailored for the client you serve, by designing your website to have relevant information and by working on technical aspects such as google advertising, search engine optimization, backlinking and other strategies.  Timestamps:Key things to do for organic growth (7:38)Backlinking and how it can help your website (11:27)What is Google My Business? (28:20)Other marketing channels that law firms should be considering (35:16) “Take advantage of the digital real estate that's out there that exists for attorneys.” - Patrick Carver Connect with Patrick Carver:Website: https://goconstellation.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickacarver/ Patrick Carver, Owner of Constellation MarketingDigital Marketing for Law FirmsPatrick Carver is a Missouri native who has spent over a decade working in digital marketing. Before devoting his work full-time to Constellation Marketing, Patrick served as Digital Marketing Manager at Fortune 500 company DICK'S Sporting Goods. He has successful experience across a variety of industries and business sizes.Patrick received his B.S. in political science from Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. His long history of success is anchored by a strong work ethic and a creative problem-solving approach. In high school, he was an all-state soccer player, a national champion debater, president of the student body, and an entrepreneur. In college, he was a two-time first-team NSCAA all-American soccer player at Emory University as well as team captain and continued his entrepreneurial interests while maintaining a full-time academic load.Now, as CEO of Constellation Marketing, Patrick leads a talented team of legal marketing professionals who work together to achieve a shared goal of driving growth at law firms. From web design to advertising, we have the skill, experience, and drive to build, manage, and maintain the entire spectrum of your digital marketing needs. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickacarver/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Okay, welcome to the show, the 1958 lawyer, I am Ron Bockstahler, your host, we got to today, we're going to start off our series, our marketing series, because I think marketing is one of the greatest misunderstood aspects of running a small business and a small law firm. So we're going to start it off with who I think is one of the best in the country of just talking the overall marketing picture, understanding what it takes, he only works with law firm. So he's a specialist working with law firms. And he's got a ton of background. So Patrick Carver, the CEO of constellation marketing, welcome to the show. Patrick, great to have you back. I'm very excited to have you on the show today.Patrick Carver  1:06  Thank you so much for having me, it's great to be back. Appreciate all that,Ron Bockstahler  1:10  you know, and I'm going to start it off by in I know I've we you and I have talked but marketing people are some of the most mistrusted individuals out there, because they come in and they can do SEO for you, they're gonna pay per click is gonna, you know, and a law small law firm, a solo practitioner says, okay, here, and I'm gonna pay you guys to do this, and you're expecting X amount of results on that, and you get nothing, maybe get something the first couple months, and then it kind of goes down the tubes. And, and we're going to talk to that because, you know, I've gone through this for over 20 years running my company, which made me go out and get a little education on my own. And then I started talking to Patrick, and wow, this is someone that you can trust, he's gonna tell you what it is. So he's not here to he's not going to sell you. He's just going to tell you what it takes to take your law firm to the next level, as far as marketing goes. So with that point, Patrick Patrick, let's talk about how you got here, I guess maybe that's a good way to start.Patrick Carver  2:00  Awesome. Yeah, I am originally from Missouri. And I got into this, essentially, because my father is a criminal defense attorney. And throughout, kind of growing up, I would help him here and there with little items, just kind of understanding technology, I'd built some websites and done some different stuff. And I was working for a separate company. And he'd been kind of unhappy or just, you know, unfulfilled with his marketing provider, one of the big companies that's out there and provides marketing services, and he'd send me these reports every month. And he would say, what does this mean? You know, he didn't understand what it all meant. He knew enough he'd been where he knew he needed to do something, he knew that the market was changing from doing advertising in the yellow pages that you needed to be online, Seo was this thing that was happening, and so on. And so he had the foresight to know he needed to do something. But beyond that, he you know, really just wanted to focus on being a great lawyer and running his practice and all that. And so he'd send me these reports. And he basically would just ask me, Hey, if you have a minute, just let me know what these guys are doing, and if it's any good, and so I was able to eventually install Google Analytics on his website, and let it run for about six months, I think. And by the end of this, this little experiment, I realized that none of his business coming in was from anything that this company was doing on the SEO side, literally every new case that he was getting, had come in by someone googling his name. So he was, you know, really getting all of his business through the fact that he was a good attorney, he would get referrals and stuff like that. And so that really, for it, well, it angered me, you know, that he was paying $1,500 a month for what I thought was, you know, kind of a scam. Really, I thought that somebody, you know, these folks had kind of sold him a bill of goods, but they weren't really doing anything on a monthly basis to actually create that change and, and be accountable for those results. And we're really just kind of banking on the fact that, you know, he wasn't super knowledgeable about about SEO and the, and the inner workings. And so at some point, he just said, Well, do you think you can do better and you know, and make me an offer to do it? And so I did it. And at that point, I wasn't, I wouldn't consider myself an expert at that point with regards to search engine optimization, but I knew enough to where they kind of let me experiment a little bit. And after a year, or six months, we started to see some really good traffic growth and we were the things we were looking at to try and change bringing net new people into into the equation who didn't already know I'm in were just out there searching for a criminal lawyer, we could see that, you know, not only was he getting more traffic, more people were calling and more business was happening where they didn't, he couldn't track it back to a referral, right? He, it was a net new person coming in. And so that was really the big lightbulb moment for me that, okay, you know, doing it the right way or doing the, you know, a good amount of work in the right way can actually lead to these results. And so after, you know, the first full year, their business was up by almost $200,000. And that was a big, you know, again, lightbulb moment for me where I could, you know, see really how this could be have a big impact on other people's firms. Now,Ron Bockstahler  5:49  now, you then you became you started up constellation marketing, and you guys have expanded now, so you're working with law firms throughout the country, give us an idea of the type of law firms you're working with today.Patrick Carver  5:59  We work with mostly what I call transactional law firms. And those are for me, firms that rely on a volume based business. So they are not the corporate law firms that maybe have a couple of clients per year. And they're happy with that these type of firms and we're talking about personal injury, criminal immigration, bankruptcy, family, you know, kind of anything that fits in there, that is a in for us, it's typically a solo or small law firm, that is really relying on that influx of new business on a monthly basis, they may get some recurring, but, you know, hopefully, people aren't committing felonies every single month of the year, right and coming back to you. So it's those type of businesses that when we kind of get them, often, they are running a good business, they are delivering a good service, but they're mostly existing on referrals, and friends of friends, things like that. And they want to get to that point where they they're getting new business in the door that is not reliant on referrals, which, you know, as the audience knows, can when they happen, they're awesome, but they're often infrequent. And you can't really do anything to amplify them, or increase the frequency in a really good, you know, consistent way.Ron Bockstahler  7:27  Let's take it to because you did a presentation on how to create a pipeline of new clients without referrals, like, let's talk to that, how do we do that? What's some of the key things that you got to do as the small law firm?Patrick Carver  7:40  For sure, the biggest things you can do our to really just take advantage of the digital real estate that's out there that exists for attorneys. And what I mean by that is, you think about how someone is looking for a lawyer. And we know that the majority of people either start or at some level, they are going to pull up their phone or on their computer search for criminal lawyer near me or criminal lawyer in Dubuque, Iowa, what, wherever they are, that is where Google takes over. And you're going to start to see the search result, which has some ads, it has map listings, it also has what we call organic results below it. And our view is that you want to try and maximize the number of positions you have in that kind of ecosystem. And so there, you can pull levers there, you know, on the free side, and then also on the paid side, right, so everybody's probably familiar with Google Pay Per Click advertising. So you can kind of skip the line and get up there to create that instant visibility. Now, if you don't want to do that, or you want to have something that's maybe more sustainable, then you can focus on more on building your own assets. And so we think about that as number one, that's your website, building a website, and just doing really simple things like discussing your practice areas in depth, and discussing the situations that your clients find themselves in and how you can help in those situations, that is going to increase the general visibility of your website so that when people are searching for not only kind of a generic, I need a lawyer type term, but also, hey, what's the penalty for trespassing in Georgia or something like that? You may pop up for that, right? And so you want to kind of think about how what are the all of the issues that you are able to solve for your clients and write about it and that's free and you you know, you can do that relatively easy. The other part which I think has a little bit less of an impact, but still is can be useful is then maximizing your presence on all these other platforms. that allow businesses to represent themselves. And specifically, I'm talking about legal directories and just other directories in general, because if you go and search anything, particularly a lawyer search, you're going to see, it's a couple of individual lawyers from your neighborhood. But then you also have the abos, the fine laws, the lawyer calm, having a presence on there is good. But ultimately, you're gonna get a lot more mileage by building your own your own website and presence. But it's kind of our view that, you know, you want to maximize everything right, and get as much of that real estate as possible. So it's not one or the other. It's all the above, right?Ron Bockstahler  10:47  Let's could you kind of take it back, you talked on you go to that first page on Google, there's three distinct things you mentioned, that was the ads to pay per click ads, there's Google My Business. So the map, yeah, and there's the organic stuff, you'll build not your own stuff. Now let's, we focus on organic. And just so everyone knows, is we are going to have Patrick back on the show here down the road. And he's gonna really dig deep into SEO for us. But for today, we're trying to keep it over. You bet. It's really, really hard. But one thing you just said is, why should I be on those directories? And hopefully linking back to the website? And can you talk a little bit about what backlinks are and how they benefit your organic search results? For sure, they'rePatrick Carver  11:29  largely two things that dictate how Google selects what pages should appear in the organic search results. It's you've probably heard about this before that it's their algorithm. And, you know, the algorithms changed. And so you got to do do these new things. The two kind of core components that have pretty much stayed the same from the beginning is our content, the quality of content, and links, and links are representations of your website, on other folks as websites. And so that, you know, the act of constellation linking to Amata would be a backlink, right. And that is helpful to Google to see who is essentially validating you are vouching for you on the internet, right. And so someone who has a collection of links from, you know, just in a local lawyer scenario, maybe has a link from the Bar Association, the local business organization, and some other folks as well, for Google that represents more credibility. And so in conjunction with what you're putting out in terms of content, they look at those two things, and they're basically trying to rank you on credibility, and the more good links from, you know, quote, unquote, reputable sources that you get, it goes to enhance that image, right. And so it's not, you know, I think there's a misnomer about search and things that if you just do kind of one, this one thing, you're going to get the results, and you're you're going to be in good shape. And so people will often say, Well, I don't need the right keywords, or I just need the good links, right. And it's, you know, it's just not, it's not that that simple, or there's more at play when determining those results. But backlinks are certainly an important part of, you know, developing that that overall presence or that overall image, but I would kind of, you know, push people to think about it more about just the overall image or brand of your company that you want to have good, helpful, fact based information on your website. And then if you can get backlinks from people in your community, from other lawyers from you know, these other areas that are relevant to what you do, you're going to benefit fromRon Bockstahler  14:06  that. I like your content. If you mentioned, how does it say dog bites I specialize in, you know, going after clients or helping clients with dog bites. Now I can write articles about dog bites that have keywords within that article that I post that on as a page on my website. Now, someone else might see that and they might be writing something similar and they might add a link to my article as a reference. That's a backlink Correct?Patrick Carver  14:33  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, they're kind of hard. It just depends on how niche specific you know, your information might be right. Because, you know, if you're writing about maximum settlements on dog bite cases, you know, that's a pretty specific thing and there's probably not, you know, people just standing around waiting to link to that. But if you were to and this is, this goes into some of the stuff Adeje, you know, around link building and developing these things, you know, but could you do a guide, you know, for parents right about the dangers of dog bites, and then reach out to some of the middle schools in your area, you know, that have maybe resources for parents and send them an email or something and say, Hey, I've got this great guide, it's about dog bites, or it's about drug prevention or things like that. I think this might be useful for, you know, for your parents, right. That's just one example of, you know, how a transaction like that that might occur. And the hope is that if you are creating good information about whether it's dog bites, or criminal laws that naturally Google will reward you. And I've seen this happen, where, you know, we've written content and developed resources, over time that they show up, they get ranked, and then random people out there on the internet, use them as resources in news stories and different things. Because you are, after all, a legal expert, right. And so people are looking for that information. But there's certainly an art to it. And, you know, I think the low hanging fruit, for most people is really just doing the basics of, you know, having a website, you know, adding to the directories doing your Google My Business, you know, and before we even get into kind of the higher end or more applied SEO strategies, I think, what I always advocate is, if you just do those basic things, I mean, you're ahead of a substantial portion of the, you know, the other lawyers out there who are competing for that same type of activity.Ron Bockstahler  16:44  Patrick, I see this a lot in the 1000s of law firms that I work with is someone will say, you know, my practice was going great things have slowed down. And, you know, they're thinking, did they slow down? Because the economy slowed down? Or did they slow down, because I'm not getting as much FaceTime on Google, you know, digitally out there. And that, probably the latter, they're not getting as much face time they so that someone comes in, it's a marketing competence. So we got to redo your website. And I'm always questioned, do you really need to redo your website and spend 510 $1,000, pumping out a new website when maybe it needs maybe a little refreshing? And then more pages added to it, which is basically content that you could just pump out? It's a different thing we talked to what do you think? What do you see? Yeah,Patrick Carver  17:26  yeah, it's kind of needs to be reviewed on a case by case basis. I mean, I think for a lot of digital marketing companies, they have a financial incentive to build you a nice new website and extract as much revenue as possible from that. Do I think that often a new website is needed? I do. But that's with the caveat that I don't necessarily think that you need a five or $10,000 website to get the job done. Right. And the problem that, you know, we often see with websites, or I'll describe a scenario that's very common is, you know, hey, I started my firm. Two years ago, I had my cousin build the website, I haven't really touched it in a while. And, you know, now I want to, I want to grow up, but I think it's, I think it's pretty good. And that, you know, there's not, you're not going to necessarily say that, Oh, that website's awful. And, you know, could we make it work? And could we improve it? Yeah, we probably could. But with a company, I'll give you an insight into kind of how we, you know, how we do it with my company is that, you know, we have what I call a formula or package with what we know really works in terms of how you build the website, from the, you know, the code side of it, the plugins we use, it all works together to, you know, kind of get this end result of really fast loading website meets all of Google's guidelines. And it's often easier for us to go and build that new site, because then we we know the ins and outs of how to work on it, it's easier for us to update content, it's easier for us to do all of these things, you know, if when it's kind of in our own style, right. But that being said, you I think you do have to be a little weary or just keep, you know, scrutinize kind of the rationale for you know, if a marker does come and see you know, and wants you to get this, you know, enormous website, or it's going to be this big expenditure, I think you want to you definitely want to scrutinize them and call it you know, call him to task a little bit or at least have them explain what's the difference between where I'm at and where you know where I'm going, and it shouldn't just be Well, yours is bad. And this one's better. Right? If there's a real tangible, meaningful difference that they can commute Okay, then I think that's a company that's going to be more trustworthy. And you know, and generally has a philosophy behind it versus, well, you know, we didn't build that website, and we're gonna build this one. And we're gonna charge you a bunch.Ron Bockstahler  20:14  But let's talk about and there's a lot to marketing. So I try to keep this on a high level, but touches in the old sales model, if you're a salesperson, you're expected to go out and have anywhere from five to, I'd say, eight touches of a prospect before they become a client, which means you call them you talk to him, you said something to him, you know, whatever, you know, it, just all these things would be a touch. But now that I think that mentality that is still there, right, you still have to have five, eight touches, but the touches, you're not physically going to their sets location and what they're seeing you digitally. So how does that plan I want to lay out expectations. So you come in, you got a nice website, and you got some links going on, you got your you're doing some paid ad, you got some GNB going, which we'll talk about in a minute. But how do you know what expectation wise? How do we lay that out? So the attorneys that are doing the marketing, they understand that it's not going to happen, just because they see you once doesn't mean that boom, I've got a new client?Patrick Carver  21:09  Yeah, I think you can, you know, there's a couple things to think about that. I mean, the, it goes back to really our core philosophy, which is get as much real estate as you possibly can. So you want to have your own website, you want to be consistently adding material to it, you want to be developing it growing it over time, you can also influencing with ads with these other areas. But something that, you know, that we do, and we're big believers in is not only creating kind of the obvious content, which is maybe building a page that is personal injury lawyer, Chicago. So that's a very common specific type of search terminology, you know, search term that we see very often in different markets. But that's not the only that's kind of the, you know, it's a big part of the iceberg. But it's still just what you're seeing on the surface. And so what I mean by that is under that there, are there going to be a lot of other questions that are kind of the search before the real search. And so before someone's actually searching for personal injury lawyer, Chicago, they may be searching something like I was hurt in an accident, you know, what do I do? Or what kind of compensation can I expect from an accident? Or how does it work, these type of questions that they have, those are great opportunities to create content and create things that you can add to your website. And I think that's how one of the ways you know, you provide value early on, so that by the time they actually are ready to hire an attorney, if they see you, again, when they're searching for personal injury attorney Chicago, you know, you show up again, it's like, Okay, I've already seen that person I already got, you know, some value, they seem to have credible information about the thing that I'm experiencing, right. And so, over time, people often will ask me, How long should I be doing this? You know, kind of like, is there? You know, once I get to a year, you know, am I done? Right? And, of course, I have a self, you know, I have my own incentive, you know, to, as a business to keep doing SEO for them for forever, right. But the truth is that you can continue to grow the visibility of your site, almost, you know, infinitely I mean, there are some ceilings that are limits that you'll hit. But, you know, over the course of a year, if you have, you can talk about every individual practice area. But then you could even break out each of those individual practice areas to five other questions or parts of what might go into a drug law case. And you could talk about penalties, you could talk about, you know, all sorts of things. And so the more that in those are really what you might have heard being called as long tail searches, where it's not the most common, but it's these more specific questions that are out there that people have, and are using that to get information and then figuring out what they need to do, do they need to get a lawyer and you know, and then they get down to that closer to the bottom of the funnel and actually search for an attorney. And so I think, you know, it's financially lucrative to continue to build your presence like that over time and keep doing it to just show up for as many possible searches that fit within your target customer as possible.Ron Bockstahler  24:43  And that's a key point because you can keep your costs down, especially on a PPC if you're very very targeted, very specific. You're just in content, but also in geographically. Where do you want to where do you what clients do you want to be touching? If you're in Atlanta, do you want to be touching a client In Seattle, it may be you do it, generally, you probably don't use your price a lot, usually within once the state that you're in. So Okay, couple things are coming to mind, I want to chat a little bit about remarketing. And that might be a little too advanced for this brief overview. But if I write this article, and it becomes one of my pages on my website, someone does that long tail search, as you just talked about, and they find my article, they read my article, can I rebrand to them? And is that something that a law firm should be looking to do?Patrick Carver  25:30  Yeah, we don't do a lot of it. And the reason that is because you have two big players in the targeting space, are Google and Facebook both have restrictions on what lawyers can do, in terms of advertising to potential clients. And they are Google's, I would say more stringent about the fact that they don't want to show personalized or targeted advertisements at people that are, I can't remember the exact terminology they use. But basically, people who have like an open legal question or something, I don't think they're they've decided they don't want to be in the business of serving ads. It's like, Hey, Jim, you know, we saw you got a DWI, like, you know, and that could show up at somebody's workplace and things like that. So there's not like, there's a very, it's very challenging to run, for instance, personal injury retargeting on Google. And you know, and there's a lot of rules with Facebook now, as well, especially since the I mean, really, since the issues with the election, they become even more specific about what you can and can't say, and we have attorneys who run ads on Facebook and do some of that retargeting, and they get flagged all the time, because it's mistakenly construed because their algorithm or their bot, you know, has flagged it as well, they were talking about this. And so this is political speech. And so it fits into this other category. And so it certainly is possible. But you know, really, the bread and butter of what we're we focus on for our clients are those being at that intersection when someone has a problem, and they are actively looking for that solution. And so I think with some, you know, types of law, like maybe estate planning, or different things where it's maybe not such an immediate need, the retargeting can be a really great tactic, and can really be useful. But I'm such a big believer in like this idea that, you know, the absolute best place to meet somebody and convert them as a client is when they are in the, you know, the, they have that acute need. And if you can be there, whether it's through ads through organic search, or the map pack, you know, you're in great shape, to then convert them as a client.Ron Bockstahler  28:02  That's good to know. I didn't realize that's that's good information. But that's also why you hire someone like Patrick, to help you with your programs and not me. So I, I'm not the expert. Let's talk a little about GMB. And that's what you're calling the map pack.Patrick Carver  28:17  Yeah, yeah. So it's Google My Business and you know, that it's Google, my business is kind of like a directory, it's, you know, where you can just submit your business information to Google and then be eligible for, you know, to be in those map location packs when people are searching. And, you know, I'm sure everybody's seen it. You search for a variety of things, and a little map will come up and it will show you the different businesses around there. And they are referencing Google My Business Listings for those, you know, for those businesses,Ron Bockstahler  28:52  and I know those are pretty easy to set up. But I don't know that everyone really wants to be in that world of setting it up themselves. So it's easy to have someone help you do that. Right.Patrick Carver  29:00  Yeah, I mean, it is really easy to do it. So you know, if you are, you know, just solo and or I mean anybody and you're, you know, you're not really actively looking for a marketing company unnecessarily. This for me is like one of those easy layups that you can do as a business owner, whether you're a plumber or I was telling this electrician I had my house today, the first thing you should do is get a GMB is basically having a website, having a GMB going in submitting yourself to legal directories, that's easy stuff that you can do on your own. And yes, there are elements that can be optimized and if you're really serious about, you know, continuing to grow your presence and you want to you know, you're in competitive markets. It does pay obviously to have people who are experienced with it because the it is a free service for something like GMB but light years between, you know, somebody who is really working on optimizing it and kind of putting some thought into how they can get the most out of it. versus, you know, the casual casual person.Ron Bockstahler  30:09  I had thought it was interesting when Google went and bought the domain dot business, too. So people, you know, small business owners can actually set up their own Google My Business account. So that's fairly new, isn't it? It's not that old?Patrick Carver  30:20  Well, I think that I'm not totally familiar with that. I think that may be part of giving them an ability to have their own website they've been doing. They've been doing GMB. You know, for probably, I want to say, like 10 years, but they're starting to have more services available and more integrations with kind of different, like marketing services or different ways that they can that a business can elevate its presence. And so in the beginning, it was the I think their main goal for the first however many years was just, we want to map everything, right, we want to be the source of truth for businesses, right and have this big directory. And so now I think they're seeing that, oh, you know, we can put up an ad to run ads for your business, right? So that when you go log in, you'll see, hey, you can get, you know, you can do ads on Google ads, you can do some of this other stuff, build a website, and things like that. So I think it's going to continue to kind of grow and provide different opportunities or have different integrations,Ron Bockstahler  31:24  you know, that brings up a great point is you always got to be kind of changing your mind your business a little bit. So it's the attorney that I talked to that says, Yeah, business, I'm always getting these leads. So I'm good, I'm solid, but all of a sudden, that dries up, because something changed, like an algorithm could have changed that just because you're not getting those same leads. So you always got to be looking ahead or working with someone that's assisting you to help make some changes. That's like anyone running a business. That's just what you know, my 20 years of running amata, it's, it's got to change so much. I can't even look back and go, Whew, that was us. That was our company. That was our business. Right? It's that's how much changed, I think digital marketing might even be changing faster. So you can't rely on what you did this year last year to really bring in the same amount of business this year. Yeah,Patrick Carver  32:05  yeah, I think there's truth in that. I mean, I think the but there's, you know, or your audience should take comfort, also in the fact that a lot of things haven't changed as well, right. I mean, in, you know, what I would call and I don't know, if I'm the best, like legal historian on this, but I'm saying the modern era of, you know, legal marketing and advertising, as, you know, post Yellow Page kind of era of heart, you know, physical books, right. In that time, it's, you know, I think the biggest thing is the website, and I don't think that's changed, you know, but you kind of add on some of these supplementary or complementary type things like Google My Business where, you know, I don't think that's, you know, the only thing you can focus on, right, and you have these other opportunities, and, you know, there's past couple years, there's been a big push for, for video, and, you know, now I need to have video for for everything. And, you know, I'm not, you know, a huge proponent of video, I don't think it has a, you know, transcending effect on the marketing practices out there for law firms. I think it has a place. But point being, you know, there are a I mean, there are a lot of things that are changing, you know, very, very quickly. And a good example, you know, that's happening right now is Google just released an algorithm update to target what are called review sites, so people out there who are reviewing products and trying to push that traffic to Amazon or something, you know, those type of businesses to affiliate marketing, but that's an indication that they are, and I've seen it with, I left a review today, the way, the way they're allowing people to leave reviews has changed as well, they're now asking a question, did you actually use this business? Did you actually and so there are these like little things where, you know, it's, it can just change overnight? And, you know, and we see it, whether it's in advertising, I mean, certainly on the SEO side, you know, the search results change on a on a daily basis. So, you know, some of those changes are very big and can have kind of a transformative effect on how you're creating content or, you know, some of these, like, things that go into the big picture. Other times, it's not enormous. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's just like, if you needed an attorney to write a contract, I mean, are you going to go with somebody who got it off? LegalZoom, you know, 10 years ago or something and hasn't kept, you know, really kept up with contract law? It's like, No way, right? You want somebody who's, you know, the expert on it, and who's following that stuff extremely closely. So yeah, I think it's super important.Ron Bockstahler  34:49  At the same time, I think when you're looking at articles published articles out there, if you look in if you find something that's five, six years old, it's, I mean, in many cases, right, sometimes that's still good, good information, but a lot especially if you're talking about anything in digital marketing. Wow, that's antiquated. That's old stuff. You know, things have changed so much from maybe when that article was written. So I think you look for more modern stuff, let's jump rolling a lot of time left, let's talk about other marketing channels that you're using, or you think you want to that law firm should be considering other than your Google in the website.Patrick Carver  35:19  Yeah. So, you know, to be candid, I mean, we feel like, that's really the big game, you know, that's the, you know, the big piece of the pie. And the reason we believe that is because we've tried a lot of different stuff, right, we have tried, you know, cold outreach to, you know, potential clients, we've tried Facebook ads, we've tried, you know, regular ads in, you know, paper journals, and different things like that. And the problem that we experienced with it is the, you know, the results, but then the scale, that there's just not anything out there that we feel like matches the scale or the potential for Google, essentially, whether it's ads, whether it's, you know, focusing on the GMB the mat, pack side, or organic, we feel like, you know, that is really where the majority of these interactions happen, where people are out there searching for an attorney, and, you know, and then going to make their decision to find one. That being said, I don't think that, you know, it means that you should just not explore other areas and not do, you know, try other things. And something that I think, you know, that we don't really do a lot of, but I think is a good strategy for lawyers, is to develop some sort of very simple email marketing, to their colleagues and to other people. And if it's even just once a year, or a couple times a year, trying to share something valuable to other lawyers for the purpose of generating referrals, or just, you know, making sure that people know, you know, good keeping you front of mind, you know, it's very low cost, it's very low energy. And but, you know, if you get a couple cases from it, I mean, awesome, right? That's, you know, that's fantastic.Ron Bockstahler  37:13  Like, stay in front of mind of even past clients, if you got a decent quarterly newsletter, it monthly, quarterly, whatever it's gonna be you always putting content in front of them, and they read it, you know, that keeps you far in mind. I think that's huge.Patrick Carver  37:25  Yeah, I mean, and then there's other things that you can do, I think, too, you know, that are, are smaller gains, but still useful. I mean, I think with that concept in mind, you can still, you can do the same thing on social media. And, you know, if you can also think about something like a giveaway, or, you know, something that, you know, you don't have to do it all the time, but, you know, once a year giveaway, some tickets or a gift certificate or something, and just make sure you hit, you know, on social, so clients who liked your pages, may see it, you can email folks and, you know, I'm sure there's, you know, I know, there's ethical considerations, but, you know, little things like that, that are, you know, kind of offline, right, they're small, they're not extremely scalable, but, you know, can be really useful. I mean, and just speaking from, you know, personal experience, I know, my father has, you know, built a really good referral business from just being active in some of the organizations, you know, he's held leadership positions, and that opens him up to, you know, being the guy in, you know, in Springfield, Missouri for, you know, certain variety of criminal defense, right. And so, I think by just kind of getting out there, you know, and doing some of those, those non those things that don't scale really well can still be important. And can you can still create some of those personal connections where, you know, somebody is going to remember you the next time they have a case that, you know, kind of matches your sweet spot. I,Ron Bockstahler  38:59  there's an article I read a while ago, and I don't think this has changed all too much. But the majority of attorneys will get 80% of their referral business from other attorneys. So I think being out there doing that, that's, that's, that's like, I think a given and that's what they've always done and that's they were able for most time, be able to rely on that. I think today, the world's changed quite a bit. And you have to have that online presence. You need to be out there you and maybe I guess, we want to even go back a little further, you want to set your goals, you know, what's your objective? What do you want to have as your book of business? What's that look like? Is it going to be 500,000 as a million as a 2 million, and then based on kind of working backwards, you know, working with somebody to create a marketing strategy that's going to allow you to have that consistent volume coming in. So you're you're living comfortable and you're able to practice law and do what you want you enjoy what joy what you're doing, without the pressures of, can I pay the bills? Can I keep the lights on?Patrick Carver  39:50  For sure. And we we work with a variety of customers who some folks are on the spectrum, the end of the spectrum where you know, they are charging business people and they want to grow this firm to, you know, multi million dollars a year. And then we have the other side who maybe they just had a baby, and they really just want a good income, but they don't want to, you know, go drive to, you know, a 10, County radius, or they don't want to, you know, do this, these different types of things for their practice. And that's great, you know, and so we want to help them, you know, kind of achieve that goal. I mean, I think it's bad business, at least for me, and our company personally to, you know, come off or be perceived as folks who are just in it for our own interest, right. And I would rather work with somebody, and they pay me 500 bucks, you know, a month or something, I'm not going to make, you know, maybe any or hardly any. But if they do decide in the future to kind of grow, or they want to do other things, then hopefully, we built a good relationship. And, you know, and what, what we've seen over time is that we get a lot of people who are solo or smaller, just kind of, you know, they've left their other firm, they're going out, they're doing their own shingle, don't have a ton to get started, but after six months, after a year, and then in the two years, I mean, their business really has changed. And the cool thing I think, is seeing that, but then, you know, I don't ever have to, it's never a hard sell then to say, Hey, I think we, you know, we think you need this new thing, or we need to double, you know, the amount of content we're doing. And it's like, okay, cool, trust you, you know, because of the results before. So, you know, I just I think we haven't talked about too much. But I think if you know, too, when you're evaluating marketing people, and you know, you, it's hard to, I think discern this, but the more you can get somebody who is interested in your goals, right? I think the better off you'll be, and the better the relationship will be for the long term, then, you know, somebody who's just kind of there. And, you know, they're really kind of bullying you into saying, Well, if you don't spend 10,000, I don't think it's, it's gonna work, you know, are you it doesn't make sense. I thinkRon Bockstahler  42:07  that's good point. And know what you know, who your what you want to achieve before you go out there looking for someone to work with in marketing? Because you're right, it does matter. What's your end goal, where do you want to be? And maybe you need to share that with your, you know, potential marketing partner. So, I think, any last word, I think we're gonna, we're gonna kind of wind it down. We're gonna have Patrick back on the show down the road, we got a couple, we got a lot of marketing coming up. So there's good, there's a lot to marketing. But I think, you know, Patrick said it, you've hit it right on the head, there's You don't gotta go crazy. Look, I spent a ton of money, you can do a few things consistently, I was looking at a slide that you'd sent out a while ago when you did a webinar. And it's basically a 12 month, kind of like the SEO timeline. How long does that take? And I want you like, I'll let you give you one a couple minutes to touch on that. Because that really sets the expectations for when you're going to talk to a marketing company, don't let them tell you that they're gonna give you overnight results. Yeah,Patrick Carver  43:02  I mean, that's a big red flag, you know, for sure. I mean, we, in that that presentation, I kind of talked about the, the time continuum for in the sense of pros and cons for SEO versus advertising. And so with, you know, SEO, the you have this long term value, the ROI, the potential for long term ROI and sustainable business over time is very high. But it does take some time, right? Because if you don't have that background, you have been writing and you have been doing these activities that go into creating that visibility, it's not going to happen overnight. And if you know, people aren't upfront with you to some degree about that. I mean, I'm, it's great to be optimistic, and, you know, take you through that. But if they're kind of answer to that is, you know, well, don't worry about it, you know, we'll take care of it. And, you know, it's going to happen this quickly, then I think it's a big red flag. But you know, when you're starting out, and you know, when I say starting out, it doesn't necessarily mean you're first starting out. But from a visibility perspective, you don't you know, you're not showing up for a lot of keywords, you're not generating traffic from Google, you know, it's going to take months, it's going to take a few months, and then it starts to trickle in, you know, between two and three months, and then it's six months you're seeing, you know, no, I mean, if they're good, noticeable traffic difference, and then really, it's by the end of the year, if you are starting from scratch, that's when you are going to really have that kind of aha moment that okay, my leads have doubled I'm getting more business my revenue is 200% or 300%. On a monthly basis more than when I started this and you can kind of see that progression. And with ads, obviously you can skip the line you can start getting generating calls in that literally first seven days or first 10 days, however, quickly. They can get you up there, but you You're not building that capital, right? You're not building that asset. And if you for instance, if, like what we've seen with COVID, there's fewer, you know, when COVID first started, there were a lot fewer people driving, guess what that means fewer auto accidents. Guess what that means fewer cases for auto accident attorneys. And so a click that went for 80 $100 was going for $350 in a place like Chicago. And so, you know, overnight, your, you know, pipeline of business, your, you know, cost per acquisition goes from, let's say, 1000 to 4000. I mean, it's crazy, right? And so that's the potential kind of problem with that, that model, and it's also on a tap. So, you know, while you're spending that money, you're not building anything. It's, you know, as soon as you stop it, it's going to be, you know, turned off.Ron Bockstahler  45:56  If you say that I got two quick stories, I was an attorney call me and he was asking me some questions about digital marketing. He's gonna redo his website. And he's been with me for I'd say, six, seven years. And I said, Look, I'm going to meet with this other law firm, that was also a client, they got about 21 family law attorneys, and I've good friends with them. And you all ask them, I say, you know, what are you guys doing? And so I did. And I called Joshua, when asked, Hey, Josh, what do you guys do? And he goes, be honest with you. We don't do a lot of PPC anymore. Because we were kind of out there before the internet became really big. So we're an authority. He is what he's, I'm, we're an authority in Google. So we are always really highly ranked, we always got good content going. So we get so much business. And that's what you're talking about. That's the stuff the long term they invested in that long term. And so now they just continue to have that business. While there's other attorneys like, Okay, I'm going to redo my website, because I'm not getting that stuff. But he's been doing PPC the whole time. And yeah, the volatility on PPC is, like you said, it could just shoot up and all of a sudden, it's very expensive, your cost per acquisition goes crazy. I think that's a great example of, you got to do both.Patrick Carver  47:06  Well, you can test it out, right. And what we always like to do is, especially if you're a newer firm, you know, we always advocate the SEO side, and then we say, but let's try, let's do some ads, let's do you know, a small commitment on ads, and within a month, we'll have a really good idea of what it costs to actually land a client. And then based on that, you know, you can go up and this kind of doesn't often or doesn't work for a lot of other marketing agencies who charge on a percentage of the ad spend, which we don't do, we do a flat rate. And, you know, over time, like, you know, it's, we think it's better for the client. But you know, we're not incentivized to go spend $20,000 of your money, just because we get a better, you know, return on it. And so, you know, the truth is that, you know, we don't see people typically kind of scaled down the the Pay Per Click, even though you could, there, you know, once they kind of get into it, and they're starting to go from, say, $8,000 a month to $30,000 a month in, you know, in revenue, it's like, okay, how can we keep growing right? Like, how can we add more SEO? How can we add more PPC, and so then based on that, we will then provide analysis, and we, we can look at, you know, the whole like, past year, whatever, and it's like, okay, we can see that 70% of your clients came through Google organic search 15% came from ads, which one do you want to invest in more? Right, and it's pretty clear, it's a ads often give attorneys I think, comfort, because it's a very tangible way to assess the value, you know, of a marketing company, right. Whereas with SEO, it's, you know, it's not as it's not, it's often not as clear because we could be going for a certain keyword. And then some person, you know, finds us by doing a search that is, like, related, but it's, it's like, a very niche specific type of search, and it gets them in, and it's sometimes hard to attribute that. But we can see from, you know, the source of these calls, the source of the emails and everything that the vast majority of them for all of our clients over 70% for all of our clients is from SEO. And so if I, you know, once you kind of get into a more mature kind of marketing approach or your your firm's a little bit more mature, I mean, I'm such a big advocate of then doubling down even more on the content and more on the SEO side, because, you know, if you put in $1,000 on that versus the ads, I mean, the long term payoff of that is so much more. So much more.Ron Bockstahler  50:02  There's so much we're gonna talk about, we're gonna get you back on we'll talk about visibility traffic leads, click throughs. Like we didn't even get into the, you know, we'll dive a little deeper into the analytics of what they do. And I think you can actually talk people through like, Okay, here's what PPC is. And here's what SEO is gonna give you. And there's, here's the real distinct difference. And what you just said, there's a long term benefit and better ROI, when you're planning out for the future and putting out content. And I think that's where we want to go next time we get you on the show. Patrick, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thanks so much. You're welcome ourPatrick Carver  50:37  having me. I really enjoyed it.Ron Bockstahler  50:39  If you don't want to wait until we get Patrick back on the show. You can always reach out to him at Patrick at go constellation.com You get Patrick Carver, you can find him on LinkedIn. He's very active on LinkedIn, or you call him at 404-482-3539. Patrick, anything else I'm missing?Patrick Carver  50:57  I'm good. I really appreciate you and having me on. And I hope this was useful. If there are any questions more than happy to get into it and give you some no BS answers not get into sales mode. So hit me up. I love talking about it.Ron Bockstahler  51:13  Appreciate you having it. Next week, we will actually be keeping our theme going with marketing we'll be bringing in Michael Dylon talking about writing a book become an authority that kind of goes back to what Patrick was talking about with content. So and then right after that, I believe we got Michelle or not show Melissa Castello, who's a storyteller. So it all comes down to like similar things, get great content and put it out there and be seen and you are going to have more business than you know what to do with. So thanks for joining us until next week. Have a great week everyone. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Timestamps:The most difficult part in file retrieval(1:17)Eliminating the problem of indexing (8:46)Evolving with technology and maintaining client relationships (15:47)Future quality of life features(23:52) “If you're not evolving exponentially with the technology that comes out, you're gonna fall behind or you're not gonna be able to capitalize on opportunities that are  really out there for you.” - Mathew Dragatsis Mathew DragatsisWebsite: www.scansearch.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathew-dragatsis-b218883/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ScanSearchDAMTwitter: https://twitter.com/scansearch Mathew Dragatsis, Scan Search Document ImagingMathew Dragatsis has been the Founder of Radiant Solutions Corporation and CEO of their new product, Scan Search. He has almost 30 years of experience in document imaging and has served many different kinds of organizations with their document imaging, management, and retrieval needs.  LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathew-dragatsis-b218883/   Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Welcome to the show everyone, good to have you back. We have a little bit different show today. So it's gonna be talking to a good good friend of mine. In fact, if I can think back about 20 years ago, Matt was a client of mine. So he started off as a client, Matt dragados. This started his firm in 2001. But he was doing the head of another firm before that, that he had sold. He ran for four years. And he's in the imaging scanning imaging technology field, and he has an amazing product that he's got out on the market today. So Matt, I'm gonna let you jump right into it. Kind of tell us what you got it. Let's talk about your history, though. Cuz you've been entrepreneur, you've been running your company for over 20 years. Tell us how you got here?Mathew Dragatsis  1:10  Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me on. First of all, I really appreciate it. Yeah, we started radium solutions back in 2001. And basically, that company was formed to provide solutions to all sectors, to allow companies to scan in their documents, extract the information that's on those documents, and then do something with that, basically, you know, if you're an accounts payable department, we're gonna extract all the pertinent data, and store that and allow you to, you know, retrieve that document based on that information. And that'll kind of lead in the scan search as well. But that's what we've been doing for probably the last, you know, 20 years or so, we've done things with law firms, as well. But it's always been scanning your documents, and I'm sure the, the audience who can relate to this, scanning your documents, all of your case, files, what have you, and then you know, look at the screen, and then basically index those, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're going to tag them, you're gonna, you know, index them and tell them how to retrieve that document based on a case file, a customer name, maybe social security number, what have you. And that's a manual process to do that. So we've been doing that since 2001. We've got companies in many different sectors, including government, big and healthcare. And, you know, that's basically what we've been doing, and been quite successful at it for all these years. And then I'll kind of lead in a scan search. So after, you know, almost 30 years of doing all this, in realizing that the most expensive part of these systems is not the software, and it's not the annual maintenance, and it's not, if it's the size, the subscription, gets the manpower to tag those documents, if you're gonna put a document in the system, right now, basically, all you can do it, let's say you upload it to Dropbox or Google Drive, you can do a search on the file name. And if you happen to know a date range, maybe the date range is pretty limited. And you could put them in folders and kind of do that. But to actually get to your documents, it's a struggle. And it's even more of a struggle to get them in there to be able to index them from an imaging system. And there are several imaging companies out there. But the fact remains, there's that indexing process. So if you're going to scan 1000 documents a day, you're going to have two or three people spending all day long indexing those documents, because you need to be able to retrieve them on the important date of the time those documents. So I'll sit around one day, and I'm thinking, Well, you know, I'll use a case file number as an example. Typically, you're gonna have a field, that's going to be called case file number, and you're going to type in, we're trying to OCR and validate that it's correct that information in that field. So I was thinking to myself, why do we need to know that that case, file number is a case file number? Why do we need to know that? Can we just search for it, like we do Google and find a Google, you know, webpage based on, you know, some loose, you know, searching criteria. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized this, if we could do this, this eliminates the entire indexing process, which is the most time consuming and expensive. So we put a little pencil to paper, and we kind of design this thing to work that way. And it took us almost, I'm gonna say almost two years to bring scan search to market. But in that time, we realized, wow, this is powerful stuff. And you know, part of the process was, Who's your competition? Is anybody doing it? How big is the marketplace? And we actually hired a firm to do all that for us. And they came back and they were like, Well, no, there is no competition doing this, how you're doing it, there are products that you could put together, you have to have the wherewithal to do it. And they're very expensive to bring this to the marketplace. But we figured out a way to do it as one package. Okay, so basically upload your documents, we process them in the cloud, you search by anything on those documents. I mean, that's as simple as it could possibly get. And so you know, about two years later, we actually, you know, formed the company scan search, and that's an entity now, and we provide this solution as a says, In other words, you can go to our website, sign up, and we've got a free trial. We've actually have a free version of it for smaller versions, if you want to try that out. And you're able to basically within minutes set up your department or your customers or your deposit Stories are your folders, whatever you want to call them, and start uploading documents to those sections of the system. And within minutes, you now have those documents accessible, full text, any word or phrase that's on there. And I guess, stop and think about that for a minute. That's pretty powerful. Because right now thatRon Bockstahler  5:17  will rub, you jump through 20 years pretty quick there, Matt. Let's so you know, look, I've known you for a long time. You've actually been into moto CLI for a long time. But it didn't. I never put it to, like scanning and OCR searching of a document. And so I think your business has evolved as every business I think has, I mean, 20 years ago, we didn't even think about the technology that we have today. Right? So right, you were thinking this 20 years ago, but you've kind of evolved, you've evolved, you know, the technology has evolved into what you are today, right? So this is why this came to market is you know, a lot about this industry.Mathew Dragatsis  5:54  Yeah, you know, like I said, to jump through that pretty quick, but that is pretty much all we've been doing. But you know, the technology has evolved, we've evolved with it, you know, in the beginning, in the very beginning, we can only do scan documents that we created. So they would be credit card applications, they would be insurance claim forms, they would be oh geez, you name it anything that you would fill out Omaha Steaks with our customer, there are there things that you fill out to order steaks that used to be in the magazines, and you send it in, but our system would read all that we did a deal. I won't name any names, but it was a government agency that dealt with a documented immigrants. And basically, they had a form that they had to fill out. And we did hundreds of 1000s of these a week for the IMS basically, and I won't tell you the firm that we were working with, because I can't but you know, that was a form that was filled out and sent in. And then we started dealing with kind of unstructured data, we got away from the remember the comb, and you put the letters in there. And, you know, the little circles that you would fill in and all that, you know, that's how we got our start. Now, that doesn't even exist anymore, that to my knowledge when you get to these high end systems. So now it's a lot more artificial intelligence, intelligence has come into play, where you know, we are trying to look for certain fields and look for things to put in there. But it's nowhere near perfect. I mean, it's far from it. But that's what we've been doing up until Scan Search. And yes, it has evolved quite a bit. But I just knew there was a big jump that we could take to to to make this the process of retrieving documents. That's really what we're giving our customers way easier. And I couldn't put my thumb on it for a while. I'm obsessed with this. So you know, what I've been thinking about for years, how do we make this better? And why we've seen all kinds of attempts with other companies, that sort of different sorts of things. But we're the first we know we were the first today anyway, are we happy, but they're really offers this all encompassing, simple, simple package, you sign up, you set your system up, it's a 10 minute process, if you have three different departments in your organization, and you want to have their own documents separated for security reasons, organizational reasons, what have you, you set up, you immediately start uploading all your documents.Ron Bockstahler  7:58  And I want to, I want to put this in a box because you know, most of my worlds in the legal industry. So we work with a lot of attorneys 1000s of law firms. And you know, I look at two boxes, I have ediscovery software, you know, we my firm, we use war room a lot, which is an ediscovery. Platform. And then you know, some people use a disco or relativity. So we're not really we're not talking about that correct? We're talking about Box or Dropbox or Microsoft product, SharePoint. OneDrive, or what Google so we're actually looking at a product that's more it's a document repository for anyone, but with the benefit is you can search by any word within that document.Mathew Dragatsis  8:46  Yeah, so let's just compare, we'll use Dropbox as an example. And it's going to be the same for Google Drive, or what have you, let's just say that you somebody sent you a wet signature scan PDF, and you're gonna store that in Google Drive, you're gonna upload that, and you're gonna probably put that in a folder for that, whatever, whatever case customer would have you. And if you want to bring that document back, you've got to go to that folder and look for it physically scroll to find it for a search by the file name, because they only find by file name for a scan image, or a neatly produced PDF, which would be a scan image to PDF. That's what you do with Drive Dropbox, or, you know, Microsoft products and have you would have it was ours, you do the same thing, you upload it. And but we can take it one step further. We now look at that document and we say okay, here's what's on the document. Let's make it available by any word or phrase, it's on that document, not just the filename, you can search by the file name as well, obviously today, but we take it away way, way more robust, a robust step forward by saying you can read the document back based on anything that's on it. Now. Sure, on the to avoid confusion here. If I upload a Word document, I can search for every single word at a time there but that's not what we're talking about. We're Talking about the documents that are either scanned or produced as a neatly natively produced PDF. Those documents, it cannot search on because it doesn't know what the words are. It's an image, it's a picture, it's the same thing as you took a picture of you and me, we uploaded it. It's that that useless when it comes to bringing it back. So what we do is we take it and we like I said, we do a full text analysis of it and make the all those words and phrases available to the user to bring that back. And what does that look like, maybe you want to bring back every document on a certain case, and you've got a particular word, the social security number, a case file number, what happened, whatever it is, if you type that in there, just that they're gonna get back every document. But if you bring if you type in that, and let's just say a particular word or phrase that you know, is on a particular set of documents, you type that into Google, you're gonna get only those back. So it's, it could be as refined as you want it.Ron Bockstahler  10:52  I love this. So I hadn't told you this, I signed up, I went, knowing you're coming on the show, I went and signed up for a user account with search scan. And I uploaded a few documents, personal documents might have one of my great little article there. My daughter wrote last year, why yell so much. And so I knew there's a couple words within that document. And I was able to type that word in I want to once emotionally. And it's a PDF that I basically just moved over into search scan. And I was able to search by the word emotionally and pull that document out of that. And I thought that that's slick. Now that's something that I can't do right now with OneDrive.Mathew Dragatsis  11:32  Yeah, oh, no, no, no, no, I mean, that was any of them. And the thing is, you can type in multiple words, or multiple phrases, and it'll bring it back, you know, think about in your mind what you're thinking before you do your search, just type that in, and it'll bring everything back.Ron Bockstahler  11:46  And look at this as a way to mean, first of all, it's a very secure, let's talk a little bit about the repository. It's a very secure repository, it's gonna be the same platform or similar as what you're gonna get it Box or Dropbox or OneDrive, it's just gonna have this added benefit.Mathew Dragatsis  12:00  It's a big added benefit. Yeah, I mean, store documents are just sitting there, it's the value comes in when you can get it back. Right. So yeah, if you want to talk about, you know, our security, that was a big, big important factor with any cloud based solution that holds data or documents. So we look to Microsoft, you know, to solve that, for us, we told them, we want the highest level we could possibly get. And so with scan search, when you're setting it up, you have the option to enable two factor authentication. And what that means is, or MFA with another multiple factor authentification is, before you sign in the first time, you have to either give them your phone number or your email address, and we're gonna go ahead and when you go to sign in, it's gonna, you're gonna get an email with a code, we've all seen this before, and you try to get it now you're in there, it's the highest level that you can pretty much get in this realm of security, because new security was going to be huge for HIPAA, and you know, things like, very sensitive data documents. And so that was because everyone's gonna ask, well, how secure is it? Well, according to Microsoft standards, we're about as secure as you can get with Microsoft as your little plug for Microsoft. Right? So you know, we have that added redundancy we have, it's just a great platform, and it's bulletproof. I shouldn't say that. It is well proven, you can get it.Ron Bockstahler  13:15  Right. Let's go back a little bit. You've been an entrepreneur. Now for 20 plus years, your business has had to evolve. They clearly have done a really good job of doing that. I think I'd known you a good portion of those years. Talk about being an entrepreneur, what are some of the struggles you've gone through? Because a lot of our listeners or your solo attorneys or small firm attorneys are just entrepreneurs that are gone through what they're going, you've been successful now for over 20 years? Tell us? How have you done that? And what some of the changes you've seen, and you had to adjust your business model?Mathew Dragatsis  13:43  Oh, yeah, that's huge. Great question. So I think as far as being an entrepreneur, I think one thing that I realized, not early enough, because we all have struggles going through these beginning of companies is that you really got to think down the road, you can't be a reactive person, when you're running a business, you really got to be strategic. And so I really went from being so excited as a young man starting, you know, the first company and then this one, and you know, you get caught up in all that it's a lot of fun, it's a lot of fun. But you get caught up in the moment, and you're not thinking, you know, a year or two down the road, typically. And I think over the years, I've personally mature to a point where I'm really looking at what to what's gonna go wrong. What's gonna go wrong, in two years from now, what's going on five years from now, you know, or what's gonna go right until I can act on it, and know it and see it. So I'm gonna say I spent a lot of my time and day is really thinking about not what's going on right now, although that's a part of my job. But part of the artwork of being entrepreneurs, we're we're going to take this, you know, where's that runner pointed? And you got to be on that. You got to be thinking that all the time, because things are coming at you all the time. And you know, what's the old saying, you can't control the wind, but you can adjust the sails. There is no truer statement and you're gonna have to burn your dodge here and your zag there and zig and that's, you know what you do? So that's as far as I was speaking to someone ensuring there's that's what I would say is that that goes, as far as maturing, you know, technology wise, you know, that's a full time job in itself. I mean, you know, technology grows exponentially. I'd love to show you some of the systems that we originally put in. I mean, they were like Atari, I mean, do you think video games now it was back then, you know, the first iterations of these OCR software is you actually need to connect the dots, you know, so you had, you know, you had your son, nine dots. And if you wanted a four, you basically did that. And that's because that's how sophisticated the lack of the OCR software was. And I go way back with a lot of these companies that develop these products. And, you know, we were just, we were, this was the cool stuff, all fax paper faxes coming in, you know, and you skate crazy stuff anyway, now, it's just so much further. So really, you know, if you're not evolving exponentially with the technology that comes out, you're gonna fall behind, or you're not gonna be able to capitalize on opportunities that are really out there for you, as a business owner, when you're buying technology.Ron Bockstahler  16:00  That's a great point, Matt, because I think, you know, people hear and I talk to the attorneys I work with, they're like, Yeah, we're not going to fall behind, because we're going to be taking care of our clients. But what you just a second part of that is, you're not going to capitalize on really what's out there, you're gonna miss out on opportunity. I know, we all we all work, because we love to work. We're also here to make money. You know, I like a lot of the terms, if you're not saving $250,000 A year before taxes, rethink how you're doing things. Because the truth is, I mean, if you're making that kind of money, you should have a program in place, it's protecting that money. But if you don't, then you don't sit and say, Hey, I got a goodness, perfect, because it's really not. And if you're not keeping up on this technology, as you're talking about today, and you do this as a full time job, so this technology is something you do his full time job, I can't keep up with it, I got to turn to someone like you to say, Hey, what's going on in this this world? And when I heard about this product, I was like, wow, that, that's pretty cool.Mathew Dragatsis  16:57  Yeah, I mean, and that goes back to, you know, you talk about that, relationships are huge. I mean, if you're a law firm, and you're kind of running the it part of it, you don't have the relationship, these people that you are watching them grow, like myself, and you want to stay in touch with those, whether it's for something like this, or whatever it might be. So I'm gonna say some of my six most successful customers have a team of vendors that they grow with. And you know, my job is always come up with new technology and be able to provide that to whoever. And I've got a list of, you know, 20 customers that I've been working with for since the beginning, 20 years. In fact, we just put a big one of these systems, it wasn't the SAS version of it. In a company, I've been dealing with this gentleman for probably 17 years now. And we have our conversation two, three times here, what's new, he calls me, I tell them, and they're great customer, but a lot of customers like that. It's the relationship with your vendors, that you know, they're there to sell to you, they want you to be educated. So you'll buy from them to make money. I mean, that's really leverage that leverage these people to help you become successful, and your goals.Ron Bockstahler  17:59  And that's where you got someone that's good. On the other end, that vendor partner, that's a good vendor partners thinking long term, they're thinking down the road, because they don't want to just have a deal with you today. They want to deal with you. You know, I mean, back when I first started out of college, I was selling copiers and the whole mentality. I mean, if you get caught up in it was day to day, but the truth was, if you sold a customer today, and you stay in touch with that customer, you're selling them again, in three years, maybe two years, they're gonna expand, they're gonna need another one, or they're gonna replace the one they have. So it's a, it's a repeat business. And once you get in, and you do a really, really good job for that client, and you're always taking care of them. And like you said, talking to him 234 times a year, you're building that relationship. And it's the same as you got a law practice, you might have a law practice and corporate law that that client uses you occasionally. But if you're always in touch with them, they're always going to come back to you if you do a good job. That's repeat business. You're not going to buy that business again, right? No, got market, you don't spend any money, that business is there for you.Mathew Dragatsis  18:54  Yeah, you better have your magnet on the refrigerator.Ron Bockstahler  18:57  Yeah. Gotta be in front of them. It's a it's a long term game, and you got to have that mentality. And it seems like that's, I mean, I know, I've had that when I got you started a year before? I did. Yeah, yeah, I just, I keep that mentality.Mathew Dragatsis  19:11  You have to and I'm learning, that's where we're marketing scan search way differently than we've traditionally marketed traditionally, you know, I'm selling big systems, you know, a quarter million dollar $2 million systems out there that are going in, and they're gonna have that system for five to 10 years, 15 years, I got some customers from the beginning that are still using the system. And that was a very, that was a of course back then, you know, you're wearing a suit and tie and you're bringing doughnuts in and you're having coffee and dinners and that that whole process completely changed. Okay, so now I get customers that I don't ever talk to because we're marketing this as a says, and I'll get to my point in this just a second but the people are signing up now I didn't mean I won't meet now if it's a gigantic customer doing a million documents month we're gonna want to meet them and and nurture that relationship but if otherwise, but we're going to constantly stay in contact with these customers via email, podcast posts, you You know, Merry Christmas emails, whatever, whatever postcards, whatever it's going to be, he got to be in front of these people all the time. And this is a new way of marketing for me. So we hired a great marketing firm, they're doing a phenomenal job, but they're putting us in front of several 100,000 people a week that are seeing our ads. And it's amazing how people will go from seeing an ad, very few sign up the first time, I mean, very few, very small amount. But we're at the our average, right now, they see that as seven and nine times for the actually sign up. So that means that they, we had to get in front of them seven, nine times to make them our customer. And then you have to keep doing that, obviously. And so this whole new way of marketing, and you and I have talked about this in the past, it's a radical departure from the way that we used to do business. I mean, there's no more hamstring. It's kind of bizarre. I mean, everybody is, and all I do is I sit in front of the dashboard, or I should say I check it daily, and seeing what's going on, you know, we're like, yeah, we're looking down the road to see what's trends, what's not going right, what's going right. But it's very bizarre to me to do business this way. Because I'm like you, you know, I used to traverse the industrial parks in Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois, with boxes of donuts, knocking on doors and those days, that although that was a lot of fun. But young kids do that anymore.Ron Bockstahler  21:11  I don't think you know, one thing you said that I don't think has changed is you had to be like a touches how many times you have to touch a prospect before they became a client and is usually in that six to eight range. So that doesn't seem like that's changed. You still got to have that touch. It's just the touches coming in a different way.Mathew Dragatsis  21:26  It's a different media, I mean, completely different. Yeah.Ron Bockstahler  21:29  No talk, I want to talk to the our attorney listeners because that's primary listeners much attorneys is, you know, getting a new client isn't someone you just like, if it's a referral, and they need a need today, but generally it's they need to stay they know about you, they see you they see your name, they start to in their subconscious, they start to build that trust in you comes comfortable, right? Because let's face it, we all say we trust someone, we don't do a ton of research. Because it's something major, we're not doing a whole ton of research, we start to believe that we trust them because someone told us we could or we seen their ads, and we've seen them a few times and all sudden they're built into our subconscious. And then when I actually need something, and I see that they say it's the attorney yet and I'm gonna get divorced. Boom, I'm calling them and I feel comfortable calling them. And I think that hasn't changed those touches. That's still the same. And it's it's interesting that you brought that up?Mathew Dragatsis  22:22  Well, if you think about it, we're still looking at we're still watching videos, they're just not TV commercials now their Facebook ad videos, or their tic tock or their what have you. So it's still a human being talking to you. I mean, it really is, that's our biggest thing is our videos, and our ads, of course, brands all linked to a video. I mean, that's kind of the thing, we want them to see our video because that's still a human face and voice that's talking to them about our value proposition. So yeah, you're right, that hasn't changed at all. But, you know, in the old days, Ron would be you'd be URI sitting in front of them, you know, across the desk, having a cup of coffee and explain to them, you know what your value proposition is? But yeah, this is just a river Max had drum from MTV. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. Okay. It's kind of like this is kind of like that now. He was like a virtual guy. That was I don't remember he was selling I'm sure it was video ads or whatever. on MTV. Some of your younger listeners, they're not gonna get no idea. Yeah, virtual here. It was a virtual human basically it it was hilarious. But that's the that's kind of what it reminds me of. I see my own ads. So it's not me. We've got, you know, the ads and actors and all that. But it's not real. It's a video that's being played, but boy, it sure does seem real.Ron Bockstahler  23:32  That's amazing. It's amazing where things are, and they're gonna keep continuing. Now let's talk about sketch search. Your products been out on the market now for how long? Seven weeks, seven weeks, you've got great activity you guys are I know you're building up really quick. So we're lucky to have you. I appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us. You've got new stuff coming on. So your products continually evolving?Mathew Dragatsis  23:52  Yes. Yes. A lot of cool stuff coming up. So like, can I touch on that for a minute? Absolutely. Okay. So originally, you were able to just upload documents, which in itself was a great way to do it super easy. Go to your directory, upload a million documents. And next, you know, they're all available planning word or phrase. So and that's great. But if you a lot of people get most of their documents emailed to them. So you know, they're going to get a scanned document, maybe it's been turned into a PDF, but it's got a signature on it. But we need to be able to, you know, put that in the system to store it, but we also need to get it. So right now, instead of downloading that document to desktop, and then maybe uploading it to our system, you basically get an email address for every department you have, or every box, whatever you want to label every file folder, probably not that close. But anyway. So now you're able to just take that email, look at the document and then just forward that email to your place where you're storing documents. And then that's it. There's no more that step of downloading and uploading again, that was going to be pretty important, obviously. So we released that a few weeks ago. It works great. I mean, you could just go through all your emails, and anything that's attachment on it, forward it to your scan, search email address, and that's all you do. That's all you have to do. There's never printing it. There's Never filing it. There's never scanning it. There's nothing, there's no downloading it. It just simply forward that email and we take care of the rest for you. Yes, you,Ron Bockstahler  25:08  Matt, you have tutorials out there for all these things.Mathew Dragatsis  25:11  Yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And it's, yeah, we put a lot of effort into our video production, it took forever to get done, but it's done. And if you go to the website, you know, you can see all this stuff, scan search.com, by the way, anyway. So we did that. That's how that's working. Right now we've got, we're gonna run the answering our viewer, right now we want it right now, when you search for a document that brings the document back, and you can then go ahead and search within the document and things like that. But we want to do it where when you This is one of the things we're working on now, where when you do your search, it comes back the document, the words are highlighted, and it takes you to what you searched on. Basically, we think that's a pretty cool feature that we're going to put in there, and I can't give you a date, it's gonna be available. But that's going to be big, it's not really necessary to do, but we think it's gonna be a nice feature to give to the customers. And then we talked about in right now in the drawing board is integration with other repositories. So we think it'd be very slick, to be able to go to Microsoft's OneDrive and search for what you're searching for, and be able to bring your documents back that way, or Google Drive or Dropbox, or vice versa. You know, these, we all have API's, which is basically a connection that makes other applications talk to each other. So you could go to, you know, scan search. com, log in search for what you're looking for, and it'll bring you back your scan documents that you uploaded or emailed or what have you to us. And everything else that stood out, you know it through. So we're working on that now that design is not solidified. It's a it's a big one to integrate with these these things. But we're hoping sometime, you know, next year, we'll have that and that that'll be nice. Is it necessary, no. But again, a nice feature to be able to give to our customers just kind of tie things a little bit better together. Because right now we do not, and we probably never will do it because we don't want to reinvent the wheel. But for Word documents, you know, we were talking about scan search, upload your document, search any word or phrase Great. Well, you can then now with electronic document, meaning a Word document or an Excel document, if you're in Google Drive, you know, they've got docs and in their spreadsheets and what have you. So if you upload a Word document to Google Drive, and you search for word or phrase on there, it'll bring the document back. But along with that you upload a scanned document, that document is invisible, you'll never see it unless you know the file name of it. So we'd like to maybe at some point in time, you know, bring all that together, just to make it more seamless, we're in the business of making things easier when it comes right down to it. And we use technology to do that. So these are just some of the things down the road that we're looking, we want to have to do it, we're coming up with a bulk upgrade, or a bulk upload the download a little chrome extension or a little app on your desktop, and you can upload millions of documents cuz we're gonna have customers, you know, I have customers now not using this, but our own technology. You know, I mean, we've got one customer, they upload a 12 million invoices a year, that's a lot of documents. And, you know, we're going to get them converted over to scanners. But it's a process. It's a big undertaking process wise for them. But everyone's on board, why we show them this? They're like, Oh, my gosh, where was this 10 years ago, you know, and another thing is, so that's the things that we're working on many other things as well. That's one of the key things we're working on, I guess the message here is, we're going to consistently try to make it better, you know, people working on the development, the design, or the user experience, and then just constantly rolling this out. The nice thing is, you know, we come up with idea, we design it, we test it, we make it ready, we push it to production, we're done. In the old days, you had to call 300 customers and go to every one of their servers and and do the upgrade, which was, you know, it took a year to do that sometimes. So, so this, yeah, it's, you know, it becomes available, you know, pretty much immediately, which is nice.Ron Bockstahler  28:49  Well, this is great. It's been I look, I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us a little bit about being an entrepreneur, but you know, really about scan search and talking about technology that's really changing the way we're doing things. I think it's gonna be a pretty big winner for you guys, for everyone. I thinkMathew Dragatsis  29:03  I'm seeing this. I've been doing this for 30 years scanning, extracting data, what have you. I mean, it's a great technology. I'm obsessed with it, I always have been. I truly believe that this is a disruptor in the industry that I've been in all this time. And the reason I say that is twofold. One, no one's doing it to the feedback we're getting far exceeds my expectations of what I thought we were going to get with this. And so with that being said, I think we've got a very disrupting to the industry product here.Ron Bockstahler  29:28  That's great. I wish it's great to see a mnemonic client from 20 years ago, doing great and going on a good friend of mine that I enjoy drinking some beers with. So Matt, I wish you all the best of luck and hopefully we'll get out and start touring some small cities and in some of those brew pubs we we well, thanks for coming on yet. Wait, so let's Matt You can reach Matt go to scan search.com That's the best way just go check it out. scanners.com you can reach Matt directly. Mount even What's your email Matt? What's the best way to contact could,Mathew Dragatsis  30:00  you know I'll tell you what did you want to do just enter gases at scan search comm that's how you can reach me directly. That's my personal email. But also there is a 800 number on the website asked to talk to me. And it'll get forwarded to me if you want to have conversation.Ron Bockstahler  30:15  But once we've had macro, match the CEO of scan search.com been doing a long time. And once again, man, I've known you many years. So I'm really, really happy to see this great success. And I wish you allMathew Dragatsis  30:25  appreciate the time I really appreciate you get in front of me the people that are going to run Thank you. Absolutely.Ron Bockstahler  30:29  Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to everyone next week we will be kicking off our marketing I guess it's gonna be look like marketing. Two months, we got a lot of marketing coming your way. So stick around and pay attention. We'll talk to y'all next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Michael DeLon is the President in Paperback Expert, he is an author, speaker, marketing strategist and business growth coach for business owners and sharp, aggressive entrepreneurs looking to get to the next level in their business. In this episode Michael talks about all the ways you can establish credibility, stand out, and convert leads by publishing a book. He uses three concepts: clarify, simplify, and multiply to harness a lawyer's journey or life story to make a compelling story out of it which will then be the cornerstone of all their marketing strategies. Timestamps:Telling your story (5:14)Clarify. Simplify. Multiply. (6:53)Your book as the centerpiece of your marketing (16:20)Continuous leads, follow up, and more conversions(3:58) “Everyone... has a story of why they're doing what they do. Somewhere they made a decision of why they became a lawyer. Why? I wanna know that story. Weave that through the book because none of their competitors can fight that. Your message is what differentiates you.”Paperback Expert Website: https://paperbackexpert.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/MichaelDeLonBooks: https://www.amazon.com/Michael-DeLon/e/B00J2794ZY%3FLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeldelon/ Michael DeLon, President of Paperback ExpertDepartment (Marketing Strategist and Business Growth Coach)Michael is an author, speaker, marketing strategist and business growth coach for business owners and sharp, aggressive entrepreneurs looking to get to the next level in their business.Michael is a native of Indiana and has lived near Little Rock, AR since 2004. His business background includes real estate, automotive, radio, internet, consulting and 10 years in family ministry.Michael is a voracious learner … you'll always find him with a book (or 2 or 3) and an audio series going on his iPhone or iPod. But more than learning, Michael loves applying, testing and perfecting marketing concepts that help his clients achieve more.Michael and his wife reside near Little Rock, AR with their three children. They are deeply involved in The Bible Church of Little Rock.Michael loves spending time with his family, traveling with friends and living life on the edge.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeldelon/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:28  Welcome to the show, I am your Runbox dollar your host got a very, very special guest with me today. Michael Dylon, Michael, I want to say you're the credibility expert. And I know you've got a great bio, but you know, the ideas. And the attorneys out there you need to be writing books, and showing that you are the expert what to do. And that's exactly what Michael helps you do is he helps you go out and create a book, take that book, the number one bestseller on Amazon, and then just you change your marketing so that your marketing is all built around your credibility. And not just being another, you know, face and a website that really has no meaning whatsoever to a potential client. So Michael, I didn't mean to mess up your your intro, but very excited to have you on the show. Welcome to the show.Michael DeLon  1:12  No, that's great, man. I'll take that title, anytime credibility builder, and it really is a game changer. When you create your own book. You and I were just talking about you reading my book that I published back in 2013. That was my first one that that was the book I wrote wrong when I escaped prison. And now it wasn't a literal prison man, right? It was an emotional prison. I was stuck in a job that I hated for about two years, and needed to get out. And it was a ministry job where I was building marriages and families. And they just went through corporate reorg and all that stuff. And I was in a position that I hated and prayed and said got it got to get out of here. And I started a marketing consulting firm in Little Rock, which is where I live now. Because marketing is my background helping small business owners with marketing. But I go out Ron and I come to Yes, I think I can help you grow your business. You meet with me, we talk and you say Now Mike, what have you done for the last few years? And I said, Well, I built marriages and families. And you'd say, Michael, that's honorable way to go, you know, look at the timeline. I've got another appointment. Let's keep this conversation going. And you assure me out the door. And Ron, I was not getting any clients and I was living on savings. I'm like, Man, I gotta fix this. So I found myself one day pacing the hallways of my church saying God, how do I help Ron? Because I know I can. And he said, Why don't you just take all of your marketing strategies and put them in a book. Now back then I didn't know the first thing about writing the book. So I sat down and I just started plowing through it. It took us a few months to get it done. But what happened is I'd call you and I'd set an appointment, I'd mail you a copy of my book. And about a week later, I walk into your office. And there was my book was on your desk dog, your highlight and underline you'd read my book. And in that meeting, Ron, you'd say now, Michael, in your book, you said, how do you help me do that? And you'd hire me. And the next guy hired me and the next guy hired me. Pretty cool.Ron Bockstahler  3:01  Cool, cool.Michael DeLon  3:01  What changed between those two meetings? Did my background in ministry change? Not a bit? Did my understanding of marketing change? Nope. What changed was how you thought of me, when you got a copy of my book, you immediately saw me as an expert. And you are ready to take down the prescription I had for you to solve your marketing problems, that Ron changed my business in my life. And that was the seed that got planted that has now grown into paperback expert, where we help attorneys create their own book without writing a word, to establish that credibility to separate them from all that competition. And then we teach them actually how to market themselves as a credible authority and expert. So they'll gain clients get referrals and grow their revenue, which is what it's all about.Ron Bockstahler  3:52  Here's the first thing I thought of when you said I wrote that book back in 2013. So eight years ago, I met you through networking, through a mutual friend who actually lives in St. Louis. Right. I live in Chicago, like Indianapolis, I suppose. And my business is on Chicago, but and so in 2013, I went and bought the book when I met you because I thought okay, I gotta understand, I'm going to go cruise and I read the book. And of course, I've got it all marked up and eared up. I'll never return it to anyone, right because I got so many notes in the book. But you wrote the book eight years ago. Now you're still that I got something from that, I guess shelf life, right? So you talk about shelf life because I mean, how many times we go out and go to American but we go to somewhere we hand out our business card which goes in the circular.Michael DeLon  4:36  Yeah, and we're getting away from businesses. I was just at a three day mastermind and this guy pulled out as his give. He's got this little.on The back of his iPhone case that all you have to do is touch it to my iPhone and all of his contact information comes to my iPhone. Business cards are a thing of the past right? But the shelf life yeah, books have shelf life. number one number two in our culture. Itzhak religious To throw a book away, we move them from house to house or office to office. So once you put a book in somebody's hand, you become a household member, right. But the other thing that doesn't I mean, most of the time, your, your message isn't going to change over time. Okay. And the other thing that doesn't change in in really, where we shine, and what we really want to help our clients do is to tell their unique story. Okay, I began this podcast with my unique story of escaping prison. Okay, and I do that for a reason is number one, it captures your attention, I've got you now you're like you're in prison, right. And then I weave that into how I got to where I am today. So it's a compelling story that's memorable. That is unique to me. And every one of your listeners, every one of your clients are on has a story of why they're doing what they do. Somewhere in their college, somewhere, they made a decision to become an a lawyer, why I want to know that story. Because I want to weave that through the book to separate them because none of their competitors can fight that they can all do better pay per click, they all hire better intake people. Your message is what differentiates you I've got a couple examples we can talk about from attorneys that we've been able to seriously differentiate, not because I created something for them. But because we discovered their story. And we were able to weave that into a very clear brand strategy and a clear message that just it changes everything in your marketing.Ron Bockstahler  6:27  Michael, I'm mesmerized by marketing, because it's so complex. It's almost one of those things where you know, I'm an attorney, I don't want to get into the weeds on marketing. How do I break this down to something that's going to be effective for me and I can stand out in my family law attorney or whatever type of law I'm practicing. How can I stand out? I know you said you got a couple examples I'd love to hear about.Michael DeLon  6:47  Yeah, so three words, Ron, that I try to live by that work in marketing works in life. Okay, three words, clarify. Simplify, multiply, and they go in that order. So let's talk marketing. You have to clarify your message, your distinct unique message. Alright. William Franchi. He's a personal injury attorney down in Florida. He came to me wanting to do a book. We started going through the process brand strategy, and I learned that he was a baseball player moved from the Northeast down to Florida to go to college to be baseball. He was heading towards the pros. He was that good. He was a pitcher. Okay, first or second year in college, he threw his arm out, had to go get surgery, took him out of baseball, lost his career, lost a scholarship. He kept going through college got his degree. And through a long series of events, he became a personal injury attorney. Right? And he helps people who are in situations through no fault of their own many times they got hit by a car or something. They're going through rehabilitation, right. And I said, William, have you ever told that story your story to anybody? Well, no, you're about the only one. He didn't think it was too powerful. I said we're in timeout. Here's what we're gonna do. So, the name of his book, The way we branded William was when life throws you a curveball. He was a pitcher. And the underneath his name on the front of the cover says William Franchi baseball player turned attorney. And what we what we were able to do is tie in his baseball passion being a pitcher throwing curveballs at batters life threw him a curveball, he never expected to be out of baseball. But every client he served on life has done them a curveball. And so what we were able to do is take his personal story, his journey in creating very distinct brands. So now, not only does he have his book, but when he's on TV down in his market, guess what he's talking about? You know, what if life throws you a curveball, and you've had a slip and fall, or you've been involved in an auto accident, or you're bitten by a dog, whatever. It wasn't in your plan, life threw you a curveball. I've been where you are. I understand the pain you're going through. I understand the process. Let me help you walk through this process. It's a very compelling message that separates him from everybody else who's like, Oh, get you $18 million for that, right? Because that's what everybody says. He has a very distinct unique message that we discovered as we walked him through his story because most honestly, most people think their story's boring. I disagree. We all have compelling stories. It's how you discover and how you tell it in your marketing to separate yourself. That's just one way but I think it always comes down to your unique compelling story. So you'll clarify your message. And that clarity just gets right through all of the noise that's out there. Because your consumer says this is somebody different.Ron Bockstahler  9:51  Auntie Ji Okay, now he clarified his message not toxic because you had three words there, clarify, simplify and was the third one, multiply multiply That's probably the most important that I forget. So okay, we got a message. Let's stick with the same topic, same person. Now simplify cuz I know you do more than just write the books, you help them with your branding. Branding is very important. I know you talk about it. So guys, let's keep that going.Michael DeLon  10:13  Yeah, so he's got his book. Now he's got his message, obviously, on the website, pictures of him right in with his baseball garb. And when he goes on TV is funny, he walks on TV with his suit here as attorney suit, but he has his baseball mitt in on his left hand. Okay, Nobody's expecting an attorney to come in looking like that. He's got pictures of himself with his baseball bat over his shoulder. In his office, he's got baseball paraphernalia in different pictures, right? Because we're always branding around that theme, because that's what separates him. Now, when he's doing his TV ads, he's always coming back to Hey, when life throws you a curveball, you need an attorney who understands and who can walk with you, once you go to my website, download a copy of my book. So they download the book, and the follow up email sequence that they're going to get is all themed around being thrown a curveball, what happens when you swing and you miss what happens with all of these baseball analogies that everybody's familiar with, but it ties right back into his message, he can do that on radio, he can do that in follow up thank yous, you know, the Thank You card that he sends out. And whether it's to a meeting, or whether it's doing, you know, direct marketing to prospects and things. The theme of that is a baseball theme with him and his catcher's or his baseball mitt, okay? mmediately, just that one picture separates him, and it causes people to stop before they throw the thing away, to go, what's this, and then is copywriting, right, to make sure that your message is clear and compelling. But it's taking that and that's how we clarify your message. This is how we simplify marketing, and teach our clients how to do this is to take that clear message, and you use it in all of your media channels. But the beautiful thing about simplifying your message with a book is all of your media channels can come back to get a free copy of my book, because it has the information that you need. Let me go ahead.Ron Bockstahler  12:14  Yeah, let's stick on free because you got a chapter in your book where you're talking about free, can we and we'll just we'll come back to multiply here in a minute and set five. But let's talk about that chapter. You talk about free in what should the attorneys that are listening? What should they be thinking through? And what are they given away? What's your giveaway? Because you don't want to give away your intellectual property, at least not all of it. Talk to free,Michael DeLon  12:35  right? Yeah, free is giving formerly really, because let's talk about an attorney, you got somebody coming in, if you're an estate planning attorney, or personally doesn't matter, they are not going to be able to do what you do. And when you have a compelling story or a unique way of doing business, you can give it away because your competitors aren't smart enough to copy it. Because you put a lot of work into building a system, right? So free, you're not going to get rich selling your book on Amazon, Ron, it's just not going to happen. You're on Amazon and Kindle for credibility purposes, because that's where people go when they say, Oh, you're an author, let me find you there. So somebody can buy your book on Amazon, you bought my book, thank you very much. I earned whoo about $5. From that, you're not going to get rich, what I'd rather you do. If you're an attorney, give your book away on your website, give somebody a free PDF, download, capture their name and email, get them on your list or number one asset and business easier list. Get them on your list, the thank you page should pop up. And you should be there hopefully with a short video saying thank you so much for downloading a copy of my book, I know it's going to be really helpful for you. I would love to mail you a free copy. That way you can highlight it, underline it, put notes in it. And when we talk later, you'll be able to have the page number of the question you have just tell me where to mail it doesn't cost you a penny, I'd be happy to do that. And you have a form. They're pre populated with their name and email that you just got for them to add their phone number or their mailing address, right. 40% of the people are testing this with our class 40% of people who opt in for the free PDF will opt in for a free copy of your book. Now what do you have on you have all of their mailing address not just to send out your book in a hopefully beautifully branded, welcoming Wow kit or a padded envelopes something that will stand out? Okay, but also for all the other mailings, your print newsletter, anything else that you're going to be mailing to them and the beautiful thing about direct mail two big things right now? Well, last time you went to your mailbox, the physical thing in front of you. I mean, how many pieces of mail were actually in that thing last night, all right. That's unless I had four pieces left on Saturday when I get my mail for things in my mailbox. It's like an echo chamber. Hello. Right. This is a great time to do direct mail. Now when I send books out, I tell my clients to put them in a big padded envelopes. And so I'll tell you how they run when I mail my book out to he's gonna come in this big gold envelopes. Okay, so when you go to your mailbox and you open up and you see that gold envelope there, you know, my books inside, it's gonna be a great time making an experience Disney, why do people pay so much money? You just went to a amusement park? Yeah, you probably paid, you know, 60 $70 to get in, you go to Disney, you're gonna be paying 160 or $200 per person again, why is that they have the same kinds of rides. It's because of the experience. We need to add some experience into our marketing, telling your stories one way to do an experience, but how do you deliver a book? So free? We're talking about free here, right? I'm giving my book away for free so I can capture your name and information. That way I can do all kinds of marketing to you. Right? Right. now's a great time. I'll give you anytime you get around any holiday. We got Thanksgiving coming up, got Christmas, New Year's, we have Valentine's Day, think about an opportunity to mail a copy of your book out to your best clients, thanking them. How many Thanksgiving cards do you receive every year on? Yeah, probably not. How many Christmas cards? Do you get? Dozens. So send a Thanksgiving cards into Thanksgiving letter saying thank you for allowing me to serve you. I just wanted to make sure you had a copy of my new Amazon best selling book.Ron Bockstahler  16:10  Michael, if you're looking at a budget standpoint, what percentage of your budget would you recommend to for a playing attorney? What percent of his budget would you allocate towards sending these things out?Michael DeLon  16:22  Yeah, their marketing budget probably depends on on where his budget is, but probably a half to 1%. It doesn't cost that much. You know, the books that you know, when our clients publish a book, they buy them from us, they're copying yours, you're gonna sell it on Amazon for like $17 $20 Each, right? But the author's cost is only $5 per book. Okay, you can mail that to somebody for probably another 350. Okay, so you got $8 Total in that, what's a client worth to you, we just spent $12, to get a new client, I think most attorneys will probably be spending hundreds of dollars for a new client. So it's understanding you're not giving, you're not mailing 1000s and 1000s of books most of the time, okay, we have a couple of clients who mail lots of books and send lots of books, most of our clients are sending about 30 books a month. And they get into a rhythm because that's where they are on their marketing. And everything's pre done. They have all the packages got the books, you sign your book, because a signed book you'll never throw away. But it's a matter of understanding the book is that cornerstone of your marketing that your Facebook ads, your LinkedIn ads or Google thing, everything can come back to a similar landing page, you could have the same landing page, you know, multiplied one for Facebook, one for YouTube, one for Google, they all say the same thing. Here's a free copy of my book. That way you can track where it's coming from to obviously, like you're building your list. And through the emails that you send out. Or if you do podcast, you're taking content from your book. And using that in your ads, you're using that content on podcast, you're using that content to create blog posts. So you create your book once, then you find 1000 different ways to use it in your marketing, to simplify your marketing, you're not chasing every new shiny object. And you don't have new ad agencies and media people coming in to change your message heaven forbid, you have a clear, compelling message. you simplify your marketing by having all media channels driving to a free copy of your book. And then that funnel that comes out of that can be identical for every one of those channels. And it all reinforces the fact that you have a story to tell and you can relate you can bond emotionally with that prospect, which is we make buying decisions emotionally. Then we find the logic to back them up, right?Ron Bockstahler  18:44  Here's your I mean just making a sound easy, but I'm even getting a little anxiety just thinking about it going holy cow that's I can do a there's a lot to it. You need a coach, you need someone you need you to some and say okay, hold on, let me step back. Let's walk through this process, step by step. And we'll get to that end result where you have a book and then we can start doing the marketing programs. Absolutely. Let's go okay, multiply, or we're simplify. let's kind of take a step back. And let's go to that third point that multiply. What are we doing there?Michael DeLon  19:14  Yeah, multiply is where you actually you're gaining clients and you're getting referrals. Okay, when I talk with a prospect, they always want to jump to multiply. That's what I want to do. Great, but we have to go clarify and simplify first. Then when you put those in the right order, then you get multiplication, because you're going to be able to convert more of the prospects you're getting, because you're giving them something of high value, they're not going to throw away. Here's the number one myth I hear in business run. I hear it every week, is whether I'm talking to an attorney or financial advisor doesn't matter. Same myth. I need more leads. Here's what happens. They do their advertising, they do an event they do whatever, and they get 20 people calling them for let's say a book, whatever it is right. 20 people, eight of those people book have a consultation with two of those people by. Okay. They come to me they say, Michael, I just need more leads. On my time out. Ron, what are you doing with the six people that you met with the didn't buy? What kind of follow up process do you have? Well, we send them an email or two, really, to IT people, most people don't buy until months after you had that first contact with them, right? What about the 12? People who raised their hand who got your book? Or went to your webinar? Who didn't contact you? Are they totally not interested? No, you got to have a system in place to stay in touch with these people. And when you do you start multiplying your business and your business grows. Now, do you need more leads? Yes, you need a continual flow of leads. But you need to do a much better job of converting the leads you're getting in order to increase your revenue to gain clients. How about so that's why I'm gaining clients. One of the best ways is by offering somebody to have a copy of your book. Right? Because it's powerful. How many other attorneys in your market have their own book that they're offering for free? Yeah, andRon Bockstahler  21:04  here's the funny thing, I bet someone can answer that question. They can't say how many they can name the one that they remember, because they have their own book. That's right.Michael DeLon  21:11  It makes a difference. And we all love referrals, right? Everybody loves referrals? How do most attorneys get referrals? Most of them don't. But if they do, they say, well, here's my business card, would you hand this out to somebody? Or here's our beautiful brochure, right? How about Ron, at the end of your transaction, whether you're an estate planning attorney, just got my estate set up? I'm thrilled with you. Right. Before we leave Iran, thank you for allowing me to serve you Would you do me a favor? And because you're happy with me, what do you always want to say? Yes. And you say, Ron, you may not know this, but most of our clients don't come to us to all the advertising and marketing that we do they come to us are happy and satisfied clients like you? Would you do me a favor? Would you take three or four copies of my book. And as you're talking with your friends in the next week or two, about how we've set up your estate properly and put you at ease? Would you just hand the copy of my book to them and say, This is the person we've trusted to put our house in order, you should read this book.Ron Bockstahler  22:10  I love that we talked about I talked with you. And then I talked to an attorney who I met who had her own book. And I was like, wow, hold on. And I remember the name of the book, it was how to divorce a narcissist. And when, like, I'm never gonna forget that the rest of my life, right? I mean, and I hundreds and hundreds of family law attorneys. But there's one who had never met in person, but I've read her book, I spent some time talking to her. I'll never forget that one person. That's how you make yourself unique.Michael DeLon  22:38  It really it really is. And when you think about your best clients, the ones you want to clone, right? They run in circles of people just like themselves, right friends, neighbors, relatives, business searchers, church members, you can you can enhance your sphere of influence at least five times by taking your best clients and putting multiple copies of your book in their hand with that little script. Because now they can go out and say, Well, yeah, we finally got off the stick and got our estate in plan in order. Now we don't have to worry about it. And you don't want we work with a guy who wrote a book on it.Ron Bockstahler  23:13  So Mike, let's talk unique message. You got a chapter in your book, you talk about unique message, I tried to look it up and kind of read about it look unique messes. I talk to attorneys all the time. And I say I do this, I get a list of 12 things they do. Yeah, that is not unique. And then I can never remember. Why would I call them?Michael DeLon  23:28  That's right. Yeah, it's less about all of that. Because at a certain level people buy who you are more than what you do. In with attorneys. I mean, all your competitor does those same things, too, right? So what's going to separate you, you've got to understand what's in it for the client? What are they looking for. And many times they don't know what they're looking for in terms of the services you provide? What they have an emotional, something going on, right? I feel like I need to get my house in order so that if I, if me or my spouse starts having dementia or losing our mind, we've already got everything set up. So we don't have to deal with things it's already taken care of. Right? We need to make sure we have those conversations with our children before that they ever comes. So it's talking about those pain points per se, in having a chapter in your book that explains that and how you've helped other people walk through that process, save that legal stuff into your meeting with them face to face or on Zoom. The book is in your clear message is really about the higher level process that they're going through. You've got to meet them where they are, and how you can help them get to where they want to be. It's just a simple bridge, but you have to understand where your clients are. I've got a thing that hangs on my wall. Hang on. I know you're the only one who can see this, but I like to hold so it's short. It's a four by six card as a drill bit and a hole had this thing for decades. And it reminds me that Black and Decker last year made millions of quarter inch drill bits. And Black and Decker wants to tell you about the steel they using the drill bit, and the quality of machinery they use and the talent of the people who've been with them 150 years. And all of that falls into the category of who cares? Because it's been proven wrong, that of all people that bought these quarter inch robots last year, not one of them wanted to own a quarter inch drill bit. They each wanted a quarter inch hole. When you do your marketing, your messaging and you're reaching out to your prospects, you have to understand what is it they're actually buying from you? What are they paying for, they're not paying for an estate plan. They're paying for the peace of mind and the security of knowing that when life throws me a curveball, I'm going to hit it out of the park because I've taken care of the thing ahead of time. Right. That's what they're paying for. When you speak to that, you're going to get a lot more client. Because no, i Nobody wants to do an estate plan. Right. But I want what the estate plan gives me. And so talk about that. And oh, it just so happens to be an estate plan that we put together. And I tell her name your process. You know, if you do estate planning, you're like every other attorney. But if you have the box dollar, you know, patented estate planning kit that we need to take you through to make sure you have all four aspects of this estate plan. They're like what I always go back, and one of my favorite examples is Dave Ramsey, the financial guy, he has a seven baby steps. brilliant marketing, he's not really that smart in budgeting and finance. He's just a great marketer, because he has these seven baby steps and you can identify, oh, I'm on step two, I have to finish it before we go to step three, it's a process into the exact same thing with a state planning or, or personal injury, it doesn't matter. People like a plan. Give them a plan, take them through, just don't go deep into the woods and speak to what how your customer how your client thinks about things.Ron Bockstahler  27:03  Here's the hard part is I know you said this, you said look, you got it in your mind. You've got a history, you've been successful. How do you bring it? What's your process? How do you get that out of someone's mind and into marketing content? Yeah,Michael DeLon  27:16  great question. We do it through interviews. So brand strategy, right, but he has a story to tell. You've got to know how to ask questions to elicit the right answer so that we can discern and discover your unique story. So we've got eight questions that we ask our clients and from those the answers they give us we can discover their unique story. So you can have somebody to ask you questions, tell your story to them. It's not as boring as you think. And as you go into that, after we get your brain, we go into the book creation process, which is you don't write your book with us you speak to write it, one of our writers actually interviews you, we walk you through the creation of your outline, and then you speak to write your book as you're being coached by a writer. And that process. Ron is amazing, because many of our clients go, I've never told that to anybody. But it becomes the essence of a chapter or the entire book. Because you've got somebody else asking you questions, almost an Dare I say an uninterested third party, but a third party who's really interested in you, I can see things in your business run that you can't see. And vice versa. I've got you know, I'm a marketing guy. Okay, I get two coaches that I pay, who are looking at my business from a marketing perspective, because I am too close to my business to make good marketing decisions, right? Same thing with an attorney, you're too close to it. You start talking attorney speak. Nobody cares. You sound like Charlie Brown's teacher. Right? You've got to pull back and speak to us in a more emotional way. Tell us your story. Stories captivate our attention, they cause us to listen. Right? Star Wars, Star Trek, you name all the movies. Why are we so compelled to, because it's a story that we can latch on to. That's really what people want. It is challenging yourself. You know, that's why we exist. But you can go out with a buddy and have a coffee, or have dinner and say Here are five questions I want you to ask me. I want to dive deep.Ron Bockstahler  29:20  So a little bit of a curveball question for you in law, and I look at it, you got b2b And you got b2c? So you got the attorneys that deal with consumers, family law, state planning, bankruptcy, and then you got to be those attorneys that are dealing with more corporations more maybe litigators or corporate law. Yeah, whatever probate but so is there a difference in the book they need to write? No, okay.Michael DeLon  29:42  I've had people ask me that all the time on b2b, it doesn't say you know, what do you sell to a business? Now you sell to people, right? You sell to people, they and I assure you, there are other competitors who are going after that same business, right? What are they saying? They're probably saying the same things you're saying right now. Welcome. Hey, I graduated from here and I've got all this time. I I. But when you start turning the table until your compelling story, why do you do that? Why are you a patent attorney? You could be doing 1000 other things. Why are you doing this? There's a story there. And when you tell that story, it starts resonating, because they understand it's not about the knowledge that you have. It's about the heart that you bring. Okay, I want somebody who's not only good at what they do, I want somebody who's also passionate about what they do. That comes through your story. So it doesn't matter, because people buy people in whether you're b2b or b2c, they're going to buy you and your services. And they better what we've always heard you got to know like and trust you, right? What better way to know like and trust them, and then spend about an hour to an hour and a half talking with them? How great would that be run, if you could get in front of that prospect? And spend 90 minutes just talking with them, understanding them, helping them understand you? That'd be great, that's valuable. Well, why don't you let your book do the talking for you, and you mail it to them as a beginning of a relationship.Ron Bockstahler  31:07  And I like to add how often especially attorneys listening, how often is that there's a book that using as a reference, where you're continually going back to it. And I think that happens a lot. As you said, we never throw away books. If you were in my office right now, you know, I've never thrown away a book.Michael DeLon  31:23  And you mentioned, they have shelf life. But then think about a marketing spend. Okay, I tell you spend a lot of money on marketing, whether it's TV, or you name it, Facebook doesn't matter. But they make that spend month after month after month after month. A book is created in such a way that you invest in at one time. And it pays you back year after year after year. I wrote my book when 2013 I still use it in my business today to gain clients to get referrals and to grow our revenue. That's how you need to look at simplifying your marketing clarifying your message so you can multiply your book, I mean, that books been well worth well over seven figures to my company in this time, right? I'm not going to deviate, it will be here in 25 years, I'll still be using that book. I might add other books. But that's foundational book that set me apart from every media rep in in Little Rock when I was out doing my marketing consulting, and all the ad agencies, they were all doing the Charlie Brown thing, right? I came in with a book and put me in a category of one changed everything. It can still happen today because the battle hasn't. Here's the deal. Everybody thinks Ron that the marketing battleground is out there. It's on Pinterest, it's on Facebook, it's on LinkedIn, it's on whatever. And the truth is the marketing battleground is between the ears of your prospect. It's in their mind. It's how they think about you. Okay, why do people spend $10,000 to go to a Tony Robbins seminar for a weekend? Because they think about him very uniquely, right? Yeah. All right. He wrote a book a few years ago on finance. Right? Begin? number one bestseller. So hundreds of 1000s of topics. Why? What does he knows about finance? If he came out and he wrote a book on estate planning, guess what? It'd be a number one bestseller on net on everywhere, right? Because why? Because he's Tony Robbins, not because he understands estate planning people by him because of who he is. And attorneys can do the exact same thing to their audience. You need to become the go to expert to your audience, owned them at the heart level. And then allow them to expand that sphere of influence by bringing referrals to the table. That's how you grow business.Ron Bockstahler  33:49  What do we so I know we're gonna have some attorneys, they're gonna say, Man, I got to reach out to paper book expert, paperback and paperback expert, speaking impediment going here. But what's gonna be the process? How long is it gonna take to actually write a book?Michael DeLon  34:04  That's a great question. So number one, I tell people never write a book. Always speak it right. There you go. We're going to our process is designed so that after brand strategy, which takes about a month working with me to get that clear brand, we move into the book creation process. And if everybody stays on track, then we can get your book created in about six months start to finish. We publish it in paperback to Amazon, we publish it in Kindle in PDF for your website and E marketing in obviously in paperback. So about six months from today, six to seven months from today. You can be an Amazon Best Selling Author of your own book, then we'll give you the marketing systems that we've developed to help you market that credibility that you have so that you can grow your business. So Michael,Ron Bockstahler  34:48  after you the book is published, it's good to go you guys aren't walking away. You're still going to be sitting there helping them how to maximize that investment in the book.Michael DeLon  34:56  We do. Yeah, because the next one for we didn't talk about this we created A podcast for our clients, if they don't already have a podcast, we create one for them. And we interview them on every chapter of their book. And we syndicate that to all the platforms, right? It's a video interview, so they can put their videos on their website and YouTube. But we also have marketing systems that we give them, system built step by step systems that they implement in their business that coincide with their authority and their credibility. And then we stay with him for additional year. So our flagship program is a 12 month program, create your brand, your Amazon best selling book, your podcast, and all the marketing systems that we're going to bring to the table for you. That's a 12 month program, we're going to stay with you for another 12 months, no cost, through our coaching programs that you're part of, because we stand behind what we do wrong with a two year, double your money back guarantee. Because wrong, oh, this works. And so we're going to stay with you. We don't just publish your book and disappear. We've been doing this for a long time we've dialed in, we know it works. When you do the effort. When you follow our counsel and run our playbooks. You'll gain clients, you'll get referrals, you will grow your business, we guarantee that with our money back guarantee, and IRon Bockstahler  36:09  know you've worked with hundreds of clients. I mean, many of them are attorneys. How long have you been doing this?Michael DeLon  36:14  Since 2013, when my business changed? That's when we launched paperback expert.Ron Bockstahler  36:20  Last Word, we got a couple more things, what do you want to leave our audience with Michael,Michael DeLon  36:24  you know, the biggest thing is be yourself, tell your story. And make sure that you bring people around you to get that story. But tell your story, and speak to the needs of your prospects and your audience. And your business is going to grow. And you can do it yourself. There's ways to do it, bring friends around you or something. If you need help, just reach out to us paperback expert. com, we'd love to talk with you about that. But be yourself tell your story. Because it really is pretty compelling. That's awesome.Ron Bockstahler  36:54  I mean, look, I'm I think it's one of the greatest things out there. I think of all the marketing, I've talked to people, we've done a lot of people in our company, this has to be the number one concept that every attorney I've talked to they need to be jumping on and writing a book because the ones that have we know who they are. And you know, of the 1.3 million attorneys in the United States. What's that say that less than 1% have published a book. Yeah. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been great. I know, a lot of our listeners are getting great value out of it. So I think they'll be reaching out to you and wanting to Hey, how can we get started. So best way to contact youMichael DeLon  37:32  back just at my website, paperback? expert.com.Ron Bockstahler  37:36  So paperback, expert. com, I'll actually post that up there. So it'll be out there. So I won't butcher it when I actually posted. So when he wants to find that you guys could check it out. You can you can check out the watch the podcast on Apple or wherever you list your podcast. You could also go to a model model offices.com look under our podcast page. You can find the podcast there. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. I really, really appreciate having you and look forward to having you back on the show.Michael DeLon  37:59  Hey, Ron. Thanks, man. It's been lots of fun talking with you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Melissa Costello is the creative lead and chief storyteller for MELISSACOSTELLO.COM's video-centric take on branding and marketing. In this episode, she shares the value of telling stories in marketing and why marketing through video works for lawyers. They talk about how lawyers today need to start thinking differently about their business and embrace marketing. The most important kind of marketing that is especially effective for law firms is using client testimonials. Melissa says that there's no substitute for testimonial videos, story telling is the most engaging medium of communication and people will want to do business with you if you tell them your clients' stories.  Timestamps:Marketing through storytelling (1:16)How to create engaging marketing (7:50)Different types of video (19:51)Why video marketing works for lawyers (28:20) “It is one of your greatest assets, the stories that your clients would be only too happy to tell - of how you changed their life, how you saved their business. Attorneys to a very large degree think that they provide a very intellectual product, and a legal product is anything but.” - Melissa Costello Connect with Melissa Costello:Website: https://melissacostello.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MelissaCostello.comChicago/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melissacostellochicago/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/melissacostelloYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbZ8FHOYkCwD078T9dJgVYg/featured Melissa Costello, Creative Lead and Story TellerMarketingMelissa Costello is the creative lead and chief storyteller for MELISSACOSTELLO.COM's video-centric take on branding and marketing. Telling stories and building brands that impact people's businesses and people's lives is her passion. Her upbringing engaged her in a lively mix of both the fine arts and the marketing arts, joint passions shared by numerous members of the extended family. It's in the blood as is a restless curiosity. Costello has been awarded both domestic and international honors for the videos and television commercials she has produced for more than 30 years through her companies in Chicago and Los Angeles, and in collaboration with former political media consultant, David Axelrod for clients such as President Barack Obama and Mayor Rahm Emanuel.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/melissacostello Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Welcome to the show. I am your host, Ron box dollar. And today we have a super special guest because he's one of my favorite people. And definitely one of my favorite people to talk to Melissa Costello. Welcome to the show, Melissa.Melissa Costello  0:40  Hey, thanks, Ron. It's really fun to be here already. Thanks.Ron Bockstahler  0:46  Again, it's funny because we generally get together for coffee, and now we're doing it over a show.Melissa Costello  0:50  Exactly. And we can't stop. You know, it's also good to have a 45 minute cut off point, I suppose.Ron Bockstahler  0:57  Well, you know, let's talk about you take us, you know, in your bio, which I didn't read the whole thing, but you actually talk about, there's my notes here. Your family engaged in a lively mix of fine arts and marketing arts. What are you talking about?Melissa Costello  1:10  What does that mean? You know, storytelling is actually what it means we it's coming at storytelling from a number of different disciplines. My dad's dad was an attorney. He was a litigator, he was brilliant at they used to say he created a spell in the courtroom, my father became a copywriter, my father, you know, took that notion of storytelling and applied it to, you know, huge corporations in America, he worked at Leo Burnett, his brother started an advertising agency, and you know, was another brilliant storyteller and writer, my sister is a script writer, it's in the blood, my son is a writer. So at the dining room table, you know, my sisters and I were the in house focus group. So it's like, girls, what would you think if we could cut apples into stars? Would you like that? What would you call it? What would you dip it into? You know, was, to me, the notion of marketing of advertising was play, this is what we're playing. This is fun. And I still bring that sense of playful discovery to my work, because that is what storytelling is, you find the story and you share it. And who doesn't love to tell a good story?Ron Bockstahler  2:26  We're talking most of our audiences are attorneys. And they're generally if they're litigators, they got to be a great storyteller. But Why do so few use video to tell their story digitally, to prospective customers?Melissa Costello  2:42  Well, that's a really that's a really good question. Ron. It's mystifying in the 21st century. You know, when you look back at where this whole thing started, you know, originally, video storytelling was called TV commercials. And it was in the very, you know, it was in the mix for an advertising agency, and it was cost prohibitive for most, because you'd have to have a massive crew. And you'd have, you know, in those days, I can't even imagine what the rates were like in the 50s and 60s when they began advertising. And by the way, it was very primitive. When you look at some of those old ads, they're horrible. I mean, by today's standards, things would, you know, the art has evolved. It's very sophisticated. But I would say that, as things have shifted forward, as things have evolved, I don't understand why people don't use it more often. Except that if you buy it on your own, you're usually not going to get a great product, you're going to if you go through an advertising agency, they have vetted a solid filmmaker, for you to work with. But I think smaller organizations have a hard time accessing those individuals accessing those companies. And they also have a hard time justifying the cost, you know, and expense is something that comes up often. But I, you know, what I say to my clients is what's really expensive, is doing it poorly and not using it. I mean, you're throwing money away, do it right. And you can use it over and over and over and over and over again. So, you know, in the legal world, you have such extraordinary stories to tell. They are the thing that almost every law firm leaves on the table. Every time they talk about marketing, it is one of your greatest assets are the stories that your clients would be only too happy to tell of how you change their life, how you saved their business. I think attorneys to a very large degree, think that they provide an intellectual product and a legal product is anything but I know from my own experience, having been in small claims court, represented by David Goodman, thanks very much, David, shout out. I know and I haven't done anything wrong, but the Feeling you have the anxiety? The Am I a bad person? What am I doing in small claims court? That David, you know, definitely stepped in, corrected everybody's perception. The judge was like, Oh, well, yeah, da, I can't tell you what he the gift he gave me. It's beyond money. It is He gave me peace of mind. And he also well gave me peace of mind and what,Ron Bockstahler  5:27  hopefully a win.Melissa Costello  5:30  He definitely gave me a win. He definitely gave let's backRon Bockstahler  5:32  up because I want to go into the cost, the sticker shock of quality, storytellers and what you need. But I want to talk more about let's get a little I want our listeners to have a more of a understanding of your past your history, the amazing clients you've worked with. I mean, you've worked with David Axelrod and a lot of his clients. So let's talk about maybe your top one or two clients that you've done video done storytelling with?Melissa Costello  5:57  Well, certainly, Barack Obama. Yeah, that was a high point it working with somebody, first of all, who's so verbal, so bright, and so kind and such a gentleman and really couldn't find anything wrong with him. Like I didn't, I didn't have to cover up any flaws in the filmmaking, you could say. And also working with David Axelrod, who you know, just an utterly brilliant strategist, and then bringing the emotion to his work through film. It was absolutely a high point. And then my children even started to feel like they were engaged in the campaign to the point that on the night that he won, I was in Grant Park with my son, and he turned to me and he said, Mom, we did it with tears in his eyes. Because, you know, the politicians would cycle in and out of our home, we would shoot in our home all the time, it became kind of a backstage for Axelrod's company. And you know, mayors and governors and whatever everybody would kind of pass through at some point, and the children would get to meet them.Ron Bockstahler  7:03  You know, David Axelrod is a brilliant marketer, political media strategist is what he's doing. whatever title you give him, at the end of the day, he understands if he was running a law firm, he would know how to make that the number one law firm in Chicago. That's true. And so when we're talking to the law firms right now that are listening, the attorneys that are listening to this, they need to start thinking maybe bigger or differently about how they're going out and approaching their business in general, and marketing in today's world, and I'm actually been slow to the digital world arena, and you know, tick tock, and everything's on video. And, you know, but everyone has to embrace that, which means they got to embrace someone that can make them look really good. And help them tell their story.Melissa Costello  7:50  I you know, again, back to the intellectual product concept. The other thing that almost all firms want to communicate is we're worth it worth worth the money that you're spending on us. And how do they do that? They do that with the ubiquitous skyline. It's like, you know, Attorney law firms have no idea how often someone in marketing says, Don't tell me they've got a skyline right there at the top of the homepage, and the or they've got, you know, some fabulous shot of their marble clad, you know, lobby or whatever they've got. That's not what moves people to hire you what moves people to hire you. First of all, is testimonials. You know, if there's one thing to me in marketing, the biggest thing that social media shifted, is the shift from, I'll take you at your word that you're a brilliant lawyer versus ah, I want to hear it from your clients. That's what social media taught us is to go to the people who are the user of the product or the user of the service, and ask them what they think, what was their experience like? Well, it's come to the point where there is no substitute for testimonial marketing. I mean, you and I did it together. It because every time you show, a testimonial video, in a room, you have just invited your most vulnerable, most enthusiastic, you know, former clients who love to hang out with you. They're right there in the room with you. And they are absolutely consistent. Every single time they show up. They are just as brilliant as they were the last time just as effective. How can you not do that?Ron Bockstahler  9:30  It's funny, you brought up the skyline and you know the most of these websites, you go find the five white guys that are sitting in their suits, and that's the picture to put it on their website. But that is not the picture that gets anyone to want to work with them. And it's hosted on they missed the emotional connection. If you go to one of these, you're watching TV and a commercial comes on to donate money to dogs or to kids, you know, St. Jude's it's an emotional video play and they are raising money from people they don't know No. So it's almost like the attorneys got to catch on law firms got to understand that they got to do the same thing, they got to create emotion, when someone's going through a difficult time. And you they, they want to call you because you show that emotion, in a video on your website, anywhere that that potential client can go and see it, that's what's gonna bring them in.Melissa Costello  10:20  Absolutely. And when we say emotion, emotion isn't just hand wringing and tears. Emotion is a full spectrum, emotion is surprise, emotion is humor. You know, it's this whole spectrum that pulls people in, it's like, oh, my gosh, there are human beings there. They're human beings, they're this is one of the first things that you learn when you go to art school is that one of the things that defines art is surprise. And, you know, like, Oh, I didn't expect to see that, or I didn't expect to hear that. Or the surprise, in terms of a testimonial could be, oh, my goodness, somebody else has experienced that. That's emotion. That's the kind of emotion you want to build into marketing, that engages anyone who goes to your site, you can do it in a website, you can do it in collateral, you can even do it in print. You know, certainly in video, it's easier in video, because video is real time and people moving and the sound of their voice and all of it.Ron Bockstahler  11:21  But if you're putting together a marketing campaign, which this is what every law firm should be looking at as an all all encompassing marketing campaign, you want to have the same messaging going out there. It's just, yeah,Melissa Costello  11:31  well, the thing that consistency does for you, is it doesn't undo you, because it stays the same as it travels, you know, as people experience it. For instance, you know, if I do a really great video, and you put it on a really bad website, and most websites are really bad, they're just incomplete. That's the way I view it. You put it on a really bad website, a visitor to your site goes, which firm? Are they? Are they the website? Or are they the people, the brilliant people in the video? Or are they somewhere not even represented? You know, anytime you raise questions, you lose them, you lose them, if you make them stop and go hang on a minute, they're gone, they're gone. So it's your opportunity,Ron Bockstahler  12:13  which is interesting. You're doing digital marketing, you can measure and you'd have video out there you can measure if people are coming and talking to you from that, versus the billboard that's a big argument with you know, spending a ton of money on those billboards. Are they really effective? Well,Melissa Costello  12:27  you know, they're doing something Otherwise, they wouldn't still be up there. I go ahead.Ron Bockstahler  12:32  No, no, no, I agree. They're doing something if they're being done in conjunction with a really solid digital campaign.Melissa Costello  12:41  You know, I always found it just so curious that, you know, the attorneys who generally advertise on the highways are the PIO attorneys who might be causing accidents, because their billboards. So it's like, it becomes, you know, it's, you know, ethically, I don't know, I don't know, makes me wonder.Ron Bockstahler  13:01  Lot of questions. Let's keep, let's see, is there any one particular area of law that does better with video?Melissa Costello  13:09  Well, I would say yes, certainly, personal injury, big in part. Now, this is a funny thing, in part, because you've got these guys who are just run volume practices, they don't know your name, they don't know your story, they just get in the door and hand you off. And I feel like when a personal injury attorney actually demonstrates that they care, it is flying in the face of that wallpaper of billboards, and of late night TV ads that just, you know, these people why it's so clear why they're doing what they're doing. Let me put it that way. It's about money. It's about a volume practice. So it creates an opportunity for a different kind of pie attorney to demonstrate it to demonstrate it in video to demonstrate it on their website.Ron Bockstahler  13:56  What about family law? Let's talk family news. Some areas of law. Oh, do they all I mean, does everyone benefit from video?Melissa Costello  14:06  Everyone benefits from good video? Yes. You know, it's back to that. What's really expensive, what's really expensive? Is spending any kind of money on video that doesn't represent you and represent your firm. And when I say represent, I mean the why, as well as the What the Who are you? You know, so many websites, so many videos, Rob, you have the pleasure of getting to know someone through conversation, you know, the conversation you and I are having and I'm watching you nod and I'm watching a smile. That needs to be a part of what happens when you go to someone's website. That's the whole purpose. It's an introduction, so why not make it as round and compelling as possible and that means showing up with the why showing up with your humor showing up with your surprises.Ron Bockstahler  14:57  And when they don't. This is what we did do video together and you were amazing, because you sit, you know, they don't see you on a video. But you're the one that's asking questions. You're talking, you're having a conversation. And then the end product is that client that's giving those responses, which, you know, at least I know, for a model office suite, it was amazing. I was like, wow, this is this is crazy good at this. We have so many great clients are saying so many great things that I never would have even thought to ask those questions. And that I think, is what the benefit. That's where law firms attorneys are gonna really benefit from working with Melissa costello.com.Melissa Costello  15:34  Well, thank you, Ron, it's, you know, interviewing. Interviewing is an interesting skill when I started. And I had my production company in Los Angeles, and I was interviewing for Jenny Craig. And I thought it was about getting a really great list of questions. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're not expecting this. And then go plowing through that list so diligently and hang on a minute, don't cut. Let me make sure we haven't forgotten. No, that's not what it's about what I discovered as I became, you know, a more mature and more skilled interviewer. And watched great interviewers like David Axelrod, for instance, what I discovered is, it's about being present for the dialogue. That's really what it is. If you are a good listener, you will have a good interview. Because you have to find that story. It's not something you already necessarily know when you walk into the interview. Yes, I have the basic, okay. The person went here, they were hurt in a car accident, they met this attorney, everything is good. Okay. That's not really the story. The story could be, my daughter was sick. You know, I was at risk of losing my job. I didn't know how. That's the deeper story. And that's, that's what's fun to find.Ron Bockstahler  16:49  Big, I'm thinking to myself, wow, you know how many people I mean, I was, and I mentioned this before, it's like, you have the opportunity to call Melissa Costello and just talk to her about putting together video, to me is amazing. We could all just reach out to you, because you've done so many celebrities, and just obviously super famous people and your experiences is unsurpassed. You are a great storyteller. So I just think it's that connection that you have, if I'm a listener, I'm going to be hanging out as soon as the show's over, I'm going I'm going to give her a call, I want to I need to have her in my office, because I need to understand how I can better connect with more clients or even better connect with my current clients.Melissa Costello  17:26  Thanks, Ron, so much of it is so simple. I will say this, you know, one thing I do you know, for instance, I call it videos, let me back up a second. I call it video centric marketing. Because I lead with video, I lead with your most powerful marketing tool. And then I take everything we gather on the day of the shoot, all of those stories, all of those images, all of those surprises, all of that emotion. And I share it on all media, I put it on your website, I put it in social media, I cut the video down into bite sized chunks, and I share it everywhere. And that is that is the power of consistent storytelling. I mean, I even do something on websites lately. I've been doing something I call case stories forget case studies, case stories, which means Ron box dollar came to me he had been in a car accident and buffet and I tell both sides of the story in a more complete way than I can afford to take the time to do in the video. Because the videos got to be under three minutes. And you got to finish watching it and go, Wow, I just found my law firm. You know, that's my objective.Ron Bockstahler  18:41  Okay, so that made me think you do different types of video because you did. You know, we had a three minute longer video branding video. And I called you and I said, I got a pitch. I'm doing a pitch. And I need a short video. And you cranked out I don't know what like a 32nd client testimonial video. I don't know exactly what you call it. But I was like, wow, like changed everything. Even I was sitting during the pitch I was sitting there going. This is amazing. changed everything. So talk to the different types of videos that are that you put together.Melissa Costello  19:15  Sure, sure, sure. And they're all kinds. They're the typical product that most law firms are interested in is a branding video. So it gets featured at the top of your landing page. And it's, you know, here are the big, you know, the important people in the firm you need to meet you know, here are the founders. And then here are some of their clients. Not every law firm feels comfortable putting their clients on camera. I hear this every time Oh, nobody will agree to do it. And I say you know what, when you have performed the kind of life changing business changing service that you have performed for them, they are delighted and actually honored to be asked. And by the way, they have a great time on the shoot. That's a whole other story. Like I think Your client can go if they want to. They're hanging out. They're hanging out. They're like, this is cool. I'm sorry, I lost my, I lost my thread where it was.Ron Bockstahler  20:09  You know? That's funny because I think I was hesitant that how many clients would sign up and say, hey, yeah, we'll come in and do video. And it was overwhelming. I think we had in two days, it was so many clients. So you're right.Melissa Costello  20:21  It's surprising. It's surprising. But don't you love to help someone who has done something wonderful for you? Absolutely.Ron Bockstahler  20:30  It's a pleasure. It's human nature.Melissa Costello  20:32  It is human nature. So that's your basic branding video. There's, you can also do a straight up testimonial, like you and I did together on a straight up testimonial video just clips of people saying extraordinary things. One client of mine likened it to going to your own funeral without having to die. He said the things I heard them saying I can't. What are they talking about me? Another type of video is you can do practice area videos, you can do bio videos, lino, let's talk about who you are, and why you got into law and you know, give us the whole backstory. Oh, another thing you can do is, you know, I also do animation. It not necessarily, though, actually, the Uniform Law Commission wanted to talk about an animated piece about how a uniform law gets developed, how it gets passed, you know, what that process is like? SoRon Bockstahler  21:27  isn't that when you talk about the bios, I mean, cut you off, but make the attorney human. Exactly making it. So that those prospective clients are going, Man, I just want I connect with this person. Yeah, you know, I mean, how often I talk to family law attorneys that it's not unusual for someone to hire someone and then leave with, you know, six months later, fire them, and jump to someone else. But if they've gone through that video, and they've had that experience, and you're human, it's very unlikely that they're going to do that.Melissa Costello  21:56  And I think it's especially important for legal practices, because there is a great deal of mistrust for attorneys on the street, there is not just PII attorneys, I know from my own experience, looking for a divorce attorney, how harrowing that was, if I could have gone to someone's website, clicked on a button, and countered a human being who actually seemed like they had my best interest at heart, it would have been done deal. And this is the thing, this is the thing about, there's an opportunity here for smaller firms, because big firms are not doing it either, by the way, and when they do it, they do it poorly. So you have the opportunity to not only compete with bigger firms, but to beat bigger firms, if you are doing a better job of representing who you are, what your values are, what life changing things you've done for your clients. It's I don't know why everybody isn't trying to do it. I can't get itRon Bockstahler  22:57  digital marketing world that we're in today, which didn't exist 20 years ago, it has given everyone a level playing field. So if you're out there, and you're picking a business today, and if you get clients, but they're not real repeat business, and you see one firm grow, but that small solo practice has the opportunity to become just as large in today's market if they do it the right way.Melissa Costello  23:18  Mm hmm. And you know what, the smart ones get this, the smart ones there. It's not that they have more money. It's that they recognize that there's something missing from the way they're representing their firm and their work. They get it, they get it before others get it. And in family law, it's incredibly powerful for that reason I was talking about before that, how do I find someone I can trust? How do I find someone who I really think is going to listen? How do I find someone who doesn't view me as a case number, who really views me as a human being as a mother, you know, in a complex network that I'm trying to save and move forward in a safe way?Ron Bockstahler  23:58  We have so much, there's so much there. But I really want to jump into the world of TiC tock videos out there everywhere you see, I've seen a couple of attorneys that are doing their own videos and my old school thought was if you're doing something that's better than nothing, but I'm not always so sure that's the case. When you're doing in I get you try to create something low budget you're trying to get started. But it's just that I guess it's I guess you maybe want to look at what type of clients you want to go after. Mm hmm. And you bring in a professional bringing in Melissa Costello's team and creating thing and by the way, let's talk about B roll footage. So explain to people I guess maybe talk about the process. So I don't think people understand it. Just because I come in for two days. You got footage for two years of new new stuff. So let's talk how it all works.Melissa Costello  24:46  Well, this is you know that my style of shooting is not like anybody else's style of shooting and it's because of my layered history. I did television commercials for quite a few years and then I did political commercials for 11 years. And then I decided to take all the skills that I had learned in those two areas and distill them and create a method of shooting, that would work for a smaller budget, you know, because those were 40 5060 to 100. And, you know, the television commercials were hundreds of 1000s of dollars for a one day shoot. And, you know, without editing, by the way, and you know, the political commercials would be 4050 60,000 a day, well, that's not tenable for the average smaller firm, and I want to work with the smaller front, I want to work with a midsize firm, and help them differentiate. So, damn, I lost my train of what was that? A B roll. My style of shooting. So what I do is I, first of all, I shoot with three cameras, there are three cameras rolling all day long. I'm doing interviews all day back to back to back to back. And the other two cameras are grabbing B roll. What B roll is, it's anything that gets cut into your video, that doesn't feature a person talking on camera. So a person like a newscaster talking on camera. And by the way, this is one of the things I learned in filmmaking at the School of the Art Institute is if what you are looking at is the same thing that as what you are hearing, you are missing 50% of the opportunity to communicate, right? So talking heads, even though you need it because you need to see who is this guy? How does he move? What do I see in his eyes? That's important. But what's equally important is when you get to look at that person in their environment, not talking, what is the office look like? What are their clients look like? How do they look like? They're they have an easy relationship between each other? Can they laugh? Or is it all terribly serious? Does it look respectful? And you know, what's the demographic at this firm? Are there women? Are there people of color? What kind of you know, is there an economic diversity of clients at this firm? All of this is something that gets communicated through B roll. It's the subtext of everything that the attorney says on camera. So you know, this is why this gets into, you know, this is like film class, and I apologize, but this is why it is such a concentrated powerful tool. It's because, you know, the what's the trope, a picture's worth 1000 words, it has been estimated by Forrester Research, I think it is that a minute a video is worth like 1.8 million words or 1.7 million words. How can that possibly be true? It's because of all the things that are unspoken. What am I wearing? Do I nod when I listen to you speak? Am I do I look like a happy person? What's my environment like previous that office, I heard a train go by all of this is subtext. And it is a gift to be able to communicate some of those softer values without having to say, I'm actually a very nice person. If somebody said that on camera, you wouldn't believe them anyway. So that's the value of B roll.Ron Bockstahler  28:20  Here's where I get excited about you social media and video. It's so popular, but you almost have to have it. But you could do shorts, I don't know what the technical icon shorts, quick shorts of that B roll footage where everything you're communicating the atmosphere who you are without saying a word, but you can have a talk over telling another story. I bet it happens more. And I'm going to try to pay attention when I watch TV. Again, in a commercial, what I'm looking at is not someone talking but I'm looking at B roll and someone's talking. It's not the same I bet that happens 95% of the time. But using a quality operation, like what you've done. And what I've experienced with you is I can put out your shorts on social media saying New messages with that B roll that's already been shot time and time and time again. And that the more you do that, whatever the initial cost was, I mean, your ROI just is going it's going to explode. And the business you're going to bring in you at some point want to maybe pause the commercials or do those shorts going on social media because you're gonna have so much work coming in. But here's the great thing is you're running a law firm is stressful, and you got to do so many things. And one of the biggest things that attorneys have to worry about is where's my next client coming in? Because when I'm done with this, you know, it's that it's like all sales, right? The roller coaster goes up and down and things are great. I'm working, I'm busy, busy, but I'm not prospecting my getting a business off sudden, I got nothing. And I got to start the whole process again. But if you had quality video, and you're okay, let me turn my video back on let me put my short school back on social media and then I could just bring in those clients again, it's almost like turning the faucet on. Mm hmm.Melissa Costello  29:51  And in a funny way, you know, the pandemic and zoom has habituated people to communicating like this So I feel like videos even more important than it has ever been. I mean, we all got hooked on it, you know how it is you get on a phone call and you go, yeah, it's kind of flat, the phone is a little bit flat, it's a little empty compared to what I'd become used to communicating with you, as I see right now. You know, the other thing I want to talk about it and social media, social shorts, I agree with you, as I call them to, is, it is so economical to change them up. They are basically a 32nd television commercial or a 22nd, television commercial, they're tight. And, you know, if you create them in a group, they are incredibly affordable, really, the most expensive part is the day of the shoot, that's where the bulk of your money is going, then you've got assets that you can be rolling out, for forever, forever. I mean, unless you leave your firm like that, or you sell your firm or whateverRon Bockstahler  30:57  did your firm but I mean, it's still the same day, you can just recreate using that asset as you go, I love this, you'd say it's an asset, because that's what it is. Now you actually have a marketing asset that you can reuse, you could voiceover for a very long time.Melissa Costello  31:11  Exactly. It's limitless. The problem, actually, the problem is coming up with the best, you know, choose the best idea for the social short, because I, you know, sitting here, the two of us could sit here and talk about a model Office suites, and in one minute have 20 ideas for social shorts. That's the challenge is trying to rein yourself in and do the best 20 That's what it is. I'll tell you,Ron Bockstahler  31:36  Melissa, it's only a challenge when you're sitting with someone that's creative, and understand how to tell a story. That's the difference. You know, I've worked with you I've worked with others. And that is a huge difference. And I just don't think it's prevalent. I don't think a lot of great storytellers are out there that are law firms can go to and say, I want to bring you on to tell our firm story because no one's saying it that way. So when they're saying, hey, I want a videographer to come in and shoot a video.Melissa Costello  32:01  i You're absolutely right. And you have to start with the story. If you don't have there's an old what, how does it go? If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. This is a Hollywood, a Hollywood or maybe it's Broadway, you know, Maxim, that, you know, if you don't have the story, you got nothing. And the same thing is true of a video. And the same thing is true of a website. And I It shocks me that even though 90 At least no, probably more like 95% of all law firm websites are indistinguishable from each other. They are all utterly generic. I mean, you go to the homepage, and you're like, give me can you give me something to sink my teeth into Please, I'm begging you. But oh, my train of thought, let me write stories. That's gonna what store gonnaRon Bockstahler  32:53  run out of time. Okay, here's the great news. Melissa's gonna be coming back. And we are going to co host several shows over the next two months. And we're going to focus on marketing. Marketing is such a big world is so much involved in there's so many different specialty areas. And I think if you know, the law firm, the attorneys I talked to I know or just an even myself, sometimes we're like, wow, this is so overwhelming. Where do I start? How do I go find someone, I'm going to upgrade my website, I'm going to I'm going to do some SEO, or I'm going to do some PPC, but they're not doing it all, you know, as one encompassing, you're basically then a we keep spending money, but not getting the results that in our mind, we think we should get. So we're going to try to help them with that. So Melissa, and I will be interviewing different experts in their area of marketing. Let's understand those areas. And let's find out what they need. It will be taken. I'll set it up so you can feed us Ron be at a matassa calm, you can ask questions, we'll address your questions during the shows, we're gonna have a lot of fun with talking about marketing and how you can make the most of what's out there with the resources you have. Now, I know there's you want to talk about and the investment because you know, videos, not inexpensive. Good video, it's definitely not inexpensive. It's gonna cost you some capital. But the ROI is there. I know you want to chat about that. Let's give us your take.Melissa Costello  34:09  Well, I would say again, because I was explaining earlier about this asset that you create isn't just a video, it creates the content for your website. It creates social media shorts that you send out on a regular basis. So you use the same asset you keep going back to and when I by the way. Another thing that I do whenever I shoot is arguably I give too much content there. There probably is such a thing run you would know. I mean, hours and hours and hours, literally eight hours of interviews with multiple people and eight hours no 16 hours because they're two cameras shooting B roll 16 hours of B roll. I know what to pull out of there. But I think I do are amortizing that shoot day across all these different chains. Animals, that is a great value, that is a terrific value. And the imagery is beautiful. And the quality of the interviews are shared over and over again. And I mean, you could send out a social short, that was nothing but a couple of quotes from people on your video, that would be really powerful just in and out done, and go, Wow. And there are so many moments like that, that we capture over the course of a day. In addition to that, I asked my clients, can you anticipate something that you'd like to talk about perhaps down the road, something you might want to add to your website, something you might want to future in social media, it could be something happening in the industry, it could be something happening in our larger culture, it could be, hey, maybe we want to get video bios in the can and use them down the road, you don't have to spend it all now that's the point. It's an investment that you can roll out, you know, over time, over years, really over years.Ron Bockstahler  36:03  I'm sold on it, I've just seen how it works. It's so effective. But if you want to take the risk of not having a new clients coming in the door, not having the revenue to support your lifestyle, and you know, enjoy your life, because it's all about you know, work life balance. That's what we always talk about. You got to have some video in your marketing blitz, you got also had redefine your marketing, I think, you know, meeting with Melissa, I think that is definitely the first start to understand this. Here's the other thing. I got a lie love by Melissa. It's not about oh, can I get this work? It's about how do we create? What's your story? Let's talk about your story. And let's see isn't an effective a compelling story that we can present to clients? And that's your approach, your approach is just different. It's not about oh, here's my fee, and here's what we're gonna do. No, no, no, no, it's not. Let's talk about your story. And it makes the attorney it makes your clients come out and say, Wow, let me think through what is my story.Melissa Costello  36:56  And it's growing things is growing things. Ron, you and I, this is one of the reasons we always have a lively conversation. We both love to grow things. We both love to make things happen for other people. I mean, when I hear back, you know, from a client, this happened not long ago, a client said, you know how you said, I can't give you an exact measurement of you know, what you can expect video to do. And she said, You're wrong. A week later, I had clients saying, you know, I am hiring you. I saw your video. And now I get what you know, I get how you're different. That's the thing. What differentiates you isn't your practice area, it's you. And that's what's palpable on video in a way that isn't palpable anywhere else. Powerful, huh, we have toRon Bockstahler  37:45  wrap it up. But we will be back. I think our next show that I'm going to have is we got Micah Dylon coming on and we're going to talk about being an author, what's the value of being an author and how that sets you apart in your area of practice. So come back into the next show. But Melissa, I want to leave it back to you as the last words. Last thing you want to communicate more is yours.Melissa Costello  38:04  I would say show up, do whatever you can to show up in you know in your full complexity in your in the richness of who you are as an individual and who you are as a professional. And the best way to do it is on video. The most unforgettable way to do it is on video. It sticks.Ron Bockstahler  38:23  So Melissa, on your website, you got a quote from Mark Lebowski, any firm that doesn't have video and the best video they can afford is losing business every day. They just don't know it.Melissa Costello  38:36  Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Mark. Mark said it was palpable. It was a palpable shift. Yeah,Ron Bockstahler  38:43  it's a must have in today's digital world. Yeah, Melissa, it's been how can our listeners get a hold of you?Melissa Costello  38:51  They can go to my website, Melissa costello.com is my very simply the name of my company and my URL. They can take it my phone number? Absolutely. They can call me at 312305 7500 and leave a message because I don't necessarily pick up calls I don't recognize. But I do get back to people.Ron Bockstahler  39:14  I've always found your really, really easy to get ahold of. So give us a call. I mean best just go to Melissa costello.com. Reach out to her from there, or just continue listening to the 1958. Lawyer Melissa will be co hosting and we'll be talking about marketing. So tune in the next several shows will be dedicated to understanding marketing, what you need, how we will answer any questions. So you know, send in your questions to Ron be at a Mott ofs.com and we will address those questions. Thanks for joining us today. I look forward to hearing from you and having you on the show next month. Thanks, Melissa.Melissa Costello  39:46  Thank you, Ron. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Marie Sarantakis is the founder of Sarantakis Law Group, LTD. She is a best-selling author, a prominent family law attorney, nationally recognized divorce coach, and the president of Adrikos, LLC. In this episode, Marie talks about narcissism in divorce court cases and defines what it really means and how it differs from mere selfish behavior. They also discussed how divorce coaches can give clients support beyond the courtroom as they are able to provide emotional support and a big picture analysis of the situation. Lastly, they talked about the benefits of the remote environment of the pandemic in law and how it could help with expanding your network. Timestamps:Difference between a narcissist and a jerk (3:20)Helping a client through being victimized by a narcissist (7:00)Divorce coach and divorce attorneys(11:23)Integrating technology and practicing networking(17:00) “You get divorced based on irreconcilable differences. Just because you married a bad person, doesn't mean you actually get more in the divorce case.” Sarantakis Law Group, LTD.Website: https://sarantakislaw.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SarantakisLaw/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariesarantakis/ Marie Sarantakis, Founder of Sarantakis Law Group, LTDFamily LawMarie Sarantakis is the founder of Sarantakis Law Group, LTD. She is a best-selling author, a prominent family law attorney, nationally recognized divorce coach, and the president of Adrikos, LLC. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariesarantakis/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  All right, welcome to the show. A good to have everyone back today we got a special guest who has a best selling author. She's a prominent family law attorney nationally recognized divorce coach, she's founded her own law firm Sarah Takus Law Group, and she's the president and re coasts LLC located in Oak Brook Marie San Takus. Murray, welcome to the show today.Marie Sarantakis  0:48  Thank you so much for having me, Ron.Ron Bockstahler  0:51  Okay, I want to get started quick. But let's give a little background You've done so much in your career already. So kindly was talking to how your family law attorney, you've written a book, How to divorce a narcissist, and when and when. And we want to talk about that kind of go through some of those things. But let's just talk about how you got to where you're at today.Marie Sarantakis  1:07  Sure. So you know, I come from a Greek immigrant family, my parents had businesses as I was growing up. So I've always been the type of person where work was just a normal part of life, and something that was sort of at the center. And I always knew I would own my own business one day, didn't always know what it would be. I went to law school became a lawyer. And I started my own practice about a month after I was licensed. So I jumped right in with both feet and have been a divorce attorney ever since. Wow. And successful.Marie Sarantakis  1:42  Thank you.Ron Bockstahler  1:43   Let's go. You wrote to me, why'd you write the book, I mean, what gave you that energy, time, desire?Marie Sarantakis  1:49  Sure. So as far as time I just don't necessarily sleep a lot. So I like to keep busy. And I'm naturally a very creative person. And I love to build things, I love to create something out of nothing. And writing a book on divorce. And narcissism just seemed like the perfect fit. I found so many of my clients would come in talking about having a narcissistic spouse. And I felt like a lot of attorneys didn't quite understand what it meant. And that clients really were able to heal and move on, the better. They understood what it was and how to deal with it. And so I thought it was such an important topic. And when I found myself having the same conversations over and over again, I thought, this really needs to be shared with a broader audience beyond just my clients. So that's what motivated me to write the book. And it was a really fun experience to put together. So I enjoyed working on it, I typically worked very late at night. So anybody that knows me knows I'm a night owl. And you know, I would say 99% of the book was written well, after midnight every night.Ron Bockstahler  2:57  You know, my first question is, I can see someone's coming in, they want to get a divorce, they're unhappy, clearly, they want to leave their spouse, I would just use the term of the narcissist in a general format, probably understanding exactly what it is. Did you? Was it more of that? Or did you actually was the opposing spouse actually a narcissist.Marie Sarantakis  3:15  So you know, it goes both ways. I certainly think that there's a lot of people who assume their spouse is a narcissist, just because their spouse is acting selfishly, but selfishly really doesn't quite get at what somebody with narcissistic personality disorder has. That's a whole different level of depravity of cruelness. And you know, that particular disorder is much more calculated, that person needs constant stream of attention. And if things are not about them, they become very angry, and they always find a way to shift the focus about them. And somebody with narcissistic personality disorder also is all about control. They need to control everything and everyone around them to such an extent that it doesn't matter what the cost or the consequences are. Control is everything.Ron Bockstahler  4:04  So wow, how many clients do you think have come into your office over the past 10 plus years and said, legit, I got a narcissist, I've got to get away.Marie Sarantakis  4:15  Oh, I couldn't even tell you how many. But I could tell you it certainly is very common. You know, this is probably something we hear about several times each week. And what's rather interesting is you know, sometimes we see people alleging their spouse may be a narcissist, but maybe it's them. Maybe they're the one who's the narcissist themselves and are just trying to get ahead of it. Maybe their spouse has already alleged to them that that's what they believe they are. So they think, Well, if I get ahead of it and say that they're the narcissist. Now, they're less credible when they make the same allegation. You know, but at the end of the day, as far as divorce court goes, in a certain sense, it doesn't really matter, right. I see this common misunderstanding that clients feel compelled that the judge needs to know that their spouse is a narcissist, and all the evil and cruel things they've done. Now granted, some of the things may be very relevant to, let's say, parenting time and raising children, maybe affairs and spending money on that. Sure those things may be relevant to a divorce case. But the general idea that their spouse is a jerk that really doesn't come into play Illinois and no fault divorce state, you get divorced based on irreconcilable differences. Just because you married a bad person, doesn't mean you actually get more in the divorce case. Wow. Alright, soRon Bockstahler  5:36  let's go back to that real quickly. Why did you go into family law because you're coming right out of law school when you started your firm?Marie Sarantakis  5:41  Sure, well, I sort of fell into it, I always thought I would do criminal law. But I started working with a family law firm. And basically, by the time I was ready to graduate, I had quite a bit of experience in the field. And I was also extremely involved in various bar associations. So it's kind of funny, because even though I was a law student, I think a lot of the attorneys around me assumed I was a lawyer, because they had seen me for so many years at so many places, and being so involved, they didn't quite realize that I was so young and so new in the field. And because of that, it was such a blessing because I was able to get referrals right off the bat. And that's part of the reason why I was able to open my own firm so young, because of the networks and the connections that I had made. While before my career even started.Ron Bockstahler  6:31  Yes, that makes me want to jump into a whole different topic, which is networking as an attorney, the valleys critical. We'll save that because I really want to get back to the book because I really want to talk about the different stages you've outlined. And I look at this as a specialty within a specialty. So you got family law, we're talking about divorce, and now we're talking about divorce specifically to someone with narcissistic behavior. And how do you help your client work get through this?Marie Sarantakis  6:58  Well, I think a huge part of it is knowing that somebody understands what they're going through, because narcissists tend to gaslight their victims, so they try to make the other person believe that they're going crazy that their interpretation of things are wrong. And so by the time they come and see me, oftentimes they're doubting themselves, they're doubting what they've experienced, their self confidence is hurting. And so I try to help them first and foremost, cope with the reality of their situation, and shift their focus from that other person and maybe directing anger or revenge towards them and focusing their efforts on bettering themselves. Going back to who they used to be before they were with the narcissist, and finding that person again, and pursuing their dreams, because they often feel so despondent and hopeless. To me, the most rewarding part of what I do is giving people hope again, and then seeing them on their way to the next part of their journey.Ron Bockstahler  7:59  Or in the by the way, you brought up sat with my wife when I was reading part of this book and gaslighting in. I asked, my wife said, You know what that means? She goes, Oh, yeah, because I used to experience that with my dad, who we've since reading your book, and he started saying that he definitely has Narcissus behaviors. How do you because it seems like a narcissist can bring that loved one back time and time again, push them away, and then bring them back? Why do you isn't attorney consulting your client? And they're kinda got to be thinking on the edge at certain times, like, oh, it's horrible. And then the next week, it's great again, how do you help them work through that and understand what's going on?Marie Sarantakis  8:34  Even though I'm a divorce attorney, I certainly want to see families reconcile if there's ever a hope or chance for that, I want to see that happen, right. But I never want to see somebody go back to an abusive situation. And so you know, it's a fine line, because you don't know whether the person is being physically mentally abused, right. And so if it's just a function of this going back and forth pendulum of dealing with a difficult individual, you know, we see that happen a lot. And oftentimes with the narcissist, they can be on their best behavior for a short period of time, right? So we may see them stay all the right things and take all the right actions to win that person back over and say, Oh, I don't want to be because they don't want to get divorced to them. It doesn't fit into their perfect narrative. They want to appear as though they have the perfect family unit. And they would much rather drag their spouse along and have their spouse just put up with anything and everything that they do all their bad behavior. So what they'll do is for example, let's say a divorce case is pending. And things may not be going their way in the divorce. And so they'll the son hmm, maybe I'll try to charm my spouse back. You know, maybe they'll reconcile and we'll pull back the divorce proceeding. And oftentimes that happens, but sadly we also see a high rate of those people refiling sometime later really just starting over back at the beginning, but now, the narcissists knowing what direction things were heading, maybe doing sneaky things behind the scenes, hiding more money getting better at, you know, concealing this bad behavior. So that can be very dangerous, you know, and one option that clients have, if they're married to a spouse and considering reconciliation, I always offer the option. certain counties have what's called a reconciliation calendar, which basically means we pause the proceedings. So their initial filing is still pending. But we're not going to court every 3045 days, we may wait a few months and go back and give the court an update. At that point, we can tell the judge, look, we've reconciled and we want to take the case off call pull back a petition for dissolution, or judge we tried to reconcile it didn't work. We need to go forward with the divorce case.Ron Bockstahler  10:51  Let's jump in. Because you're also a nationally recognized divorce coach, talk about what you're doing in that role. You got a firm? That's a separate firm from your law practice,Marie Sarantakis  11:00  correct? Exactly. Yes. A Dracos. Ron Bockstahler  11:04  Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about what you're doing there? And are you working with clients that are non clients of your law firm?Marie Sarantakis  11:12  Yeah, so I never coach my law clients, I always keep that very separate. But I do recommend that all my law clients have a divorce coach, if it's possible. So divorce coach is someone you work with, let's say on a more personal level than your attorney, your attorney is there to help you through the litigation, they go to court, they file pleadings, their end goal is to get you in and out of the case with the greatest settlement possible, right. But divorce attorneys aren't necessarily the best people, they're not your best friend to just have conversations with about the divorce proceeding in general, if it's not necessarily law related. So sometimes people just need to talk about these things and work through various scenarios. A divorce coach doesn't give any legal advice. But they have a great deal of experience in divorce proceedings, and really can help someone with the whole process and looking at things very big picture. And helping people understand where to focus their efforts and energies, and what things may not be worth dealing with.Ron Bockstahler  12:17  So typically, I actually didn't realize there was a role of a divorce coach, Coach, I should have, I guess, I never thought about it. It's just a divorceMarie Sarantakis  12:23  coach can save clients substantial money with their divorce attorney, because generally speaking, you're going to be paying the divorce coach, less per hour. And because they really help you get focused on what's important in the case, they may be able to narrow down the issues for you.Ron Bockstahler  12:40  Wow, that's so you think every Have you just said it, every person getting divorced, should have a coach on their side?Marie Sarantakis  12:47  I think everyone can benefit from one certainly now, you know, it may not be an option, right? Because I understand that everybody's financial situation is different. And the more people you have working on a case, the more expensive things tend to get. But on the flip side, again, a divorce coach could save you potentially 1000s of dollars. Wow, I'm gonna haveRon Bockstahler  13:07  to look, that's a whole nother world for me. So you're working with other family law attorneys, as they might be the attorney in a case, but you might be the coach in the case?Marie Sarantakis  13:14  Correct? Exactly. You know, and sometimes what we work on is helping people communicate better. Maybe they just are so used to speaking to each other in such a derogatory and hostile manner, that it's really creating more and more issues in the case. So sometimes it can be that simple. I'm also parenting coordinator. So I help parents work together to put their kids best interests first, above their own above the litigation. And when we see a conflict, let's say maybe outside of a traditional divorce case that's pending, sometimes parenting coordinators are assigned to couples in order to help them afterwards sometimes even during the litigation, if need beRon Bockstahler  13:55  centrally. So that's a dri COAs separate LLC from the law practice. Now, how big is that? I mean, how big how many clients you taking on on your coaching side on an annual basis? You know,Marie Sarantakis  14:06  it always varies. That's hard to say, because it's always different, right. And part of it is, you know, basically, I'm working so much with my law practice as well, that I have to be careful the volume of clients that I take on in both businesses. So I do very careful screenings before I accept any clients for either business, because I want to make sure that these are people who would benefit from my services and walk away feeling that I actually helped them because sometimes it may not be a good fit. And I think those initial meetings, those initial consultations are absolutely critical to make sure that everybody's on the same page and has the same expectations. Oh,Ron Bockstahler  14:45  you really don't sleep?Marie Sarantakis  14:47  Correct. I told youRon Bockstahler  14:49  where you're a frequent lecturer. You're an author in the legal community. You I mean, you're doing a lot of engagements. You're out there as an expert, talking to people helping other attorneys helping your clients. Yeah, you're putting a lot in this hole. and your rising star Thompson router Super Lawyers had you as a rising star you were named the top 10 family law attorneys under 40 in Illinois. Very impressive.Marie Sarantakis  15:08  Thank you very much.Ron Bockstahler  15:10  Thank you back. Let's go back to the book because I loved the book. It was so educational. For me, I want to talk a little bit about co parenting with the narc give us a few tips.Marie Sarantakis  15:17  Sure. So you want to keep very accurate and detailed records when it comes to your spouse's behavior. So what you tend to find is narcissists want to act like they're the super parent, they're what I call often the Disney World parent, right? They're going to take kids on the trip, buy him a puppy, give them ice cream for dinner, and they're going to try to win the kids over to their side. And then you find when they start to feel they're getting a strategic advantage in the divorce case, or the efforts are no longer worth it, they really kind of pushed the kids aside, and you know, maybe ice cream for dinner Disneyland and a puppy isn't what's in the kids best interest, you know. So a lot of times their behavior comes from a very selfish place, and being very self interested in not putting the kids first. So you want to make very careful records, because while they act as though they're the perfect parent, you'll find that they slip up a lot. So for example, they may fight you to get all this parenting time, and they want to be this super parent. But then once what they they actually get it, they don't exercise this time. And they say, Oh no, you watch the kids, oh, sorry, I can't, oh, I'm going on a trip, oh, I've got a business meeting. So if that parent isn't actually following the parenting time schedule that they wanted, so desperately during the pendency of the case, document that because you may be able to go to court and change it at a later time, if they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing.Ron Bockstahler  16:43  Wow, I gonna have to after the show, I have to thank my wife for being such a perfect mom and wife. Absolutely. This is interesting. Tell me about your law for a little bit. I mean, are you you're doing so much, I've got to think you've integrated technologies into your law firm, to keep up with everything,Marie Sarantakis  17:00  very much. So. So zoom has been a wonderful blessing, you know, it's made everything so much more efficient. Most of the counties that we currently practice in, are using zoom for a majority of court appearances, they're still the occasional trial or hearing that is in person. But you know, we're saving our clients so much time and money by being able to hop onto the computer, and really cut to the chase. You know, in the old days, for example, I would have to one drive to the courthouse, so there was that travel time, then I would have to if I was in Chicago park downtown, so now I'm paying for parking garage, then I would you know, let's say go to the Daley center, you know, wait a little bit to get up to the elevators get to the floor, I need to go to maybe wait in front of 40 people to have my case get hurt. So in order to talk to the judge for maybe even 10 minutes, there would be substantial amount of prep time that went into that behind the scenes. Now, when we have our scheduled time to appear in front of the court, we log into the Zoom, the judges there were there, we say our part, and then we log off. So it really does save an inordinate amount of time.Ron Bockstahler  18:12  So I mentioned I think the practice of law is changing drastically, especially with the pandemic and people realize that they can practice from anywhere. And clients aren't saying, Hey, I'm going to come into your office like they used toMarie Sarantakis  18:24  write, I would say at this point, you know, I've not met a majority of my clients, which if you would have told me that was the case. Three years ago, I would have said, that's impossible. How can that be people want to meet their attorneys, they want to know their attorneys. But what I found is we're really able to replicate so much through telephone and through zoom, that it really does feel like you get to know them. And you know, like if clients say to me, they want to meet in person. I'm happy to do that. But I think there's such a benefit on both sides. I rarely have that be the case. Occasionally I'll have a client, who isn't that tech savvy, who may say to me, Look, if we're going to hearing or proving up, which means concluding a case? Can I come into your office and do the zoom there? Can you help me out with that part? Because I don't want to miss my court appearance. But a majority of everything we do is all remote?Ron Bockstahler  19:17  Or what happens when the courts open back up? Do you foresee I'm going to trials? I imagine you're gonna go back in person, but I don't know. What else do you see going back in person, if anything?Marie Sarantakis  19:26  Sure. Well, I certainly hope it doesn't for the reasons that I stated. But you know, it's certainly a possibility. And I think we're also going to see some sort of element that there's always going to be a remote part of this. I don't think we can unlearn the things that we did these last couple of years. And it's been such a fantastic learning experience and efficiency. That for example, we have these routine court appearances called statuses and statuses are where we report to the court what's going on in a case what we're working On maybe what the problems are and where we're going next. And the judge then decides what to do with the case moving forward. So statuses, you know, that's not necessarily something where judges making a ruling or making a decision, they just want to hear an update from the attorneys. So for things like statuses, I would imagine a lot of counties are going to continue to do those remotely, because why not? They seem to be working very well that way. But I could see how there are certain times where maybe credibility is an issue or technology could be an issue where if something is being decided that day, the judge may want to hear from the parties and see them in person to make a judgement,Ron Bockstahler  20:42  which would make sense and they would have, obviously, they got the ability to do that. So we're gonna have a meeting in person. It's interesting, because are we looking at a difference in genres, age differences, the way people are looking at how things are going to emerge after this pandemic? You know, it'sMarie Sarantakis  20:57  interesting, in the very beginning, I would say there may have been initial reluctance to older attorneys on Zoom. But I'm finding that's very much changed over the last few months, everybody's gotten used to it. So I think that learning curve is behind us. And everybody can appreciate how nice this has become even the people that initially wanted to go back in person, and missed maybe that camaraderie and that human element of going to court. You know, I think we all became a little spoiled and saying, Wow, I don't know if we really miss sitting in traffic that badly. Graphics just getting worse.Ron Bockstahler  21:34  so many people don't want to take public transportation. I arrived in Chicago, I would say two weeks ago, last time I was in Chicago, and I parked it on like the 14th floor of the garage, they can what's going on? Wasn't this busy pre pandemic?Marie Sarantakis  21:47  Right now, it's definitely picking back up again, people are out there, people are doing things.Ron Bockstahler  21:54  You do a lot of networking, but where else are you getting clients from?Marie Sarantakis  21:58  A majority of my clients all come from referrals. So it's either a previous client that I had was satisfied with my services, and they've told a relative a family member or a friend, or referrals from other attorneys. So that's really the main thrust of where almost all my business comes from. I mean, sure, we get calls from people, you know, Google, maybe reading the book, whatever. And it may or may not be the right fit, right. But I think the people that are referred to me from someone else, they know a lot about me going into it. So by the time they call me, they know they need my services, and they know what they want. It's interesting.Ron Bockstahler  22:34  I had Michael Dylon on the show recently, and Michael helps law attorneys write books. And it was ironic because I know you I think I asked you and you didn't work with him you did your book on your own. But how often, you know, in his, I guess his pitch would be when you have a happy client, you just finished a divorce, you hand them three books instead of a business card and say, if you got a friend going through difficult times, haven't read my book. Is that a legitimate scenario for you?Marie Sarantakis  23:00  I like that idea. Oh, absolutely. I think that's a great thing to do. Because, you know, it's all about connections and relationships, and you want to be able to help people, and what a tangible way to hand off a case and that clients going to remember you and what you did, and maybe help someone else moving forward.Ron Bockstahler  23:21  Well, I gotta tell you, when I first talked to you, and then you'd mentioned your book, actually went to your website now that I think about it. And it's one of the first things I sent seen on your website, I immediately ordered your book. Because, yeah, just the title. I said, I've got to read this book, I just I know nothing about narcissism. But it just drew me in saying, okay, she's an expert in this. If someone's going through a difficult divorce, there's a good chance there's a narcissist on one side of them. One side of the divorce, I would say I need to get Marie involved. That's the first thing that went through my mind. And IMarie Sarantakis  23:53  do think it's very important that attorneys try to distinguish themselves in some particular way, right? We all have our strengths. We all have our specialties, the things that we deal with more often than others. And whatever those things are, it's important to have those things be known because again, just like I said it earlier, it's important that you find the right fit between attorney and client, you can have a wonderful client and a wonderful attorney doesn't mean they should necessarily work together. There's that human element that is so critical that you've got to make sure that their personalities and their goals align.Ron Bockstahler  24:28  Right. It's easy to see why you are a rising star and why you've got so many accolades out there talking to you is just very easy to talk to you. So I am, like I said, super happy. Got a chance to have you on the show. I want to give you a last chance, what would you like words or anything you want to leave our audience with?Marie Sarantakis  24:45  Well, I just want to thank you for the opportunity to be on your program. I think you have an excellent show and it helps so many people so thank you for doing what you do.Ron Bockstahler  24:54  Absolutely. I appreciate that. Best way for our listeners to contact youMarie Sarantakis  24:59  Sure. They can call my office my law firm at 630-796-0000. Or they can visit my law firm website, Sarah and Takus, law.com sar, A and T. AK is law calm,Ron Bockstahler  25:18  and how to divorce a narcissist. And when you could find the book on Amazon, you can go to Marie's website and order. I think you order through Amazon when you go to your website, is that correct?Marie Sarantakis  25:27  Correct? Yes, yeah. It's also available Barnes and Noble and other major retailers that sellRon Bockstahler  25:33  I highly recommend if you're an attorney, and you've got clients that might be going through, or you might be going through divorce, referred to Marie and definitely get the book, read the book and understand things that are in it. I think it's enlightening. Marie, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. It's been wonderful. I wish you all the best going forward. I think I'm going to I think we'll hear your name a lot over the next 20 or 30 years in the practice of law. So I'm glad I got you on the show early.Marie Sarantakis  25:57  Thank you so much, Ron. It's a pleasure to be with you.Ron Bockstahler  26:00  Thank you, everyone. Have a great evening. We'll see or good, great day and we'll talk to you next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Nate Dinger is the Senior Vice President of Commercial Banking at Signature Bank - he helps small, mid sized businesses, and law firms in Chicago manage their finances. Often times lawyers don't have any time to take care of their own firm's financial concerns so Nate, along with Signature Bank, helps them through financial advise, management and even through giving out loans for cases - which is uncommon since banks usually see court cases as high risk situations. Nate also talks about their company vision and focus of being a relationship-based bank. He discusses the big difference between knowing a guy or a gal and calling a generic phone number since people feel more valued when talking to a legitimate person than a service line.  Timestamps:How lawyers can benefit from commercial banks (3:10)Relationship-focused banking (10:41)Financing cases through commercial banks (16:01)Character as the most important of the four C's(20:16) “When the suns shining and everything's going fine, you might not need them. But on a rainy day, when things get shaken up a bit, it certainly helps to have a warm body to call.” Nate Dinger Connect with Nate:Website: http://www.signature-bank.com/index.cfmLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dinger/ Nate Dinger, Senior Vice President, Division Head - Commercial Banking at Signature BankCommercial BankingNate Dinger is the Senior Vice President of Commercial Banking at Signature Bank - he helps small, mid sized businesses, and law firms in Chicago manage their finances. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dinger/  Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Okay, welcome to the show. I'm your host Ron box dollar. And today we have Nate dinger, Senior Vice President and division head at Signature Bank, a commercial bank located in chicago primarily in Chicagoland area, helping small midsize businesses, Chicago and law firms in Chicago. So they have a special niche. Nate, welcome to the show.Nate Dinger  0:47  Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.Ron Bockstahler  0:48  Yeah, we're gonna try to get through this without me butchering everything I say. But hey, let's talk about you a little bit. You've been with the bank for just over 16 years. Now, let's talk about how you got there. Yes,Nate Dinger  0:59  I got here, I took a job with a much smaller community bank, you know, a long time ago, and that bank no longer exists. It was fell victim to the first recession a little while ago. And But in that process, one of my clients, new Mecca work our CEO in May, the introduction signature was a much smaller place back then. And, you know, I jumped on board, I was young and willing to take the risk to a newer bank. And you know, it's been a lot of fun. It's been a fun ride since then.Ron Bockstahler  1:26  Awesome. And you're Wabash man, you and I were talking that before the show. So what's it mean to be a wall bash? Man? Can you explain it to our Chicago listeners who don't know?Nate Dinger  1:35  Sure? Sure, sure. So I think it means a lot to me, that's for sure. So for those of you that don't know, while Bash is a smaller, all male liberal arts college in Crawfordsville, Indiana, to great school, very tight network of alums. And, you know, it's a place where I learned to think, and, you know, you have small class sizes, where you're oftentimes, you know, under 1010 students in a class, you're interacting directly with your professors who challenge you on a day to day basis. And it really helps not only, you know, get a college degree, but I think, learn to think and, you know, help you, you know, help you grow up during the college process, so meant a lot to me.Ron Bockstahler  2:11  And to me, it says, You got great Midwestern values, which I know is one of the big things that Signature Bank, Let's chat a little about Signature Bank, what sets you guys apart from other banks?Nate Dinger  2:20  Sure. So I think there's a few factors. Number one is that we are strictly a commercial bank, and we're a relationship focused. Our bank was founded by three former LaSalle bankers that, you know, left there when Bank of America bought them and kind of pushed their group up market, you know, bigger deals, that sort of thing. And what we really value is the owner operated business where we can sit down with decision makers, you know, learn how their business takes, learn how they make money, and hopefully form a partnership. So 10 years from now, we'll still be in business will be bigger and better. And so will they and, you know, we'll be a value add partner, rather than just a money center.Ron Bockstahler  2:59  So Nate, how do you guys work with law firms, law firms kind of unique in what they need and what they do? So how does your Signature Bank really molded into let's face it, I got a reference to you from an attorney who's a good friend of mine said you got to talk to Signature Bank, the one of the best banks in Chicago for a lawyer.Nate Dinger  3:14  So sure, sure. So we've got a lot of different programs for law firms, given that no two law firms are identical, and none of them are exactly alike. So, you know, from your, your typical, you know, call it corporate law firm that, you know, has accounts receivable, so on and so forth. We've got programs designed for that type of firm, and we have a niche on the plaintiff side, that contingency fee firms that I don't think a lot of banks really appreciate, given the lumpy nature of their cash flow and the potential risk of losing a case here and there. We've developed a lot of specific programs around that, and not many banks, taking the time to understand how those businesses work. So I think that's something that that really sets us apart. We're also not scared of, you know, service industry clienteles, a lot of banks don't like that they like assets that they can touch, they like a building or a vehicle or something of that nature. But we really value service companies where we can meet the individuals learn how they work. And, you know, for lack of a better term, some cases, you know, we're betting on the jockeys and not the horses. So we understand the people that are running those institutions that I don't think a lot of banks really appreciate.Ron Bockstahler  4:21  Here, you bring up. I mean, basically, you're but you're an asset based lending institution. And if you're a law firm, your cases are your assets. Can you talk to how you guys look at a law firms cases? And how are they valued as an asset?Nate Dinger  4:35  Sure, sure. So there's a couple of different ways that you can, you know, put a value on and the first one is you take a look at the expenses that the firm has, has invested into their portfolio. So oftentimes, you'll see several 100,000 You know, million dollars, whatever it may be invested into a portfolio of matters and to us seeing that the firm has invested not only their time, but their dollars into these cases. How Get as comfortable. It also, in most cases, they don't have all their eggs in one basket. So, you know, diversification is an important thing for us in most situations that if something does go sideways, and heaven forbid, there's a loss, you know, at a trial or case settles for an amount less than the client had hoped for, that there's still work remaining that can, you know, get the clients pay, keep the firm running and, you know, ultimately get the bank paid back as well. We also firms in more in the mass tort, or class action space, we can value the projected proceeds from some of the larger the larger mass torts, larger cases out there, and lend back a percentage of the expected proceeds, you know, to those firms to help with, you know, their working capital, their ongoing expenses, and or continuing to build their portfolio. So those are just a couple of the different ways that we look at those.Ron Bockstahler  5:51  Some of them, can you talk to a little of some of the products, the loan types, your partner buy in buy? Let's, let's see firm acquisition loans, plan of early access loans, you guys, are you playing in those areas?Nate Dinger  6:05  Absolutely. Yeah, those all the above, I guess, would be the box check. You know, to that question, we do them all, every situation is a little bit different. You know, here's one that we're a unique loan that we're doing just as an example, right now, we've got a client that has a large verdict against a money good defendants, which has been appealed. And insurance company has offered to ensure their verdict in the event that something gets overturned in the appellate court or whatnot. So we're looking to help them finance the premium, which is a hefty sum, to ensure that case, and that's just one of the creative products, if you will, we have out there. But as far as you know, looking for a box to check to fit a firm into we don't really have one, we take a look at every, every firm and evaluate them individually, because it's tough to really, you know, although they both may be to plaintiff firms or baby to, you know, pick another genre, you know, they all don't operate the same. So we want to make sure we really understand each one and that, you know, its own merits, you know, can support we're looking to do.Ron Bockstahler  7:05  So now let's talk to some of the attorneys that are listening, and what should they be doing to prep or, you know, set up their law firm to be able to go out and work with a Signature Bank or receive the best, best quality financing for cases they're working on? What can they be doing today? If even before they have those cases?Nate Dinger  7:24  Absolutely. So I think the first thing is your financial reporting and your organization around your portfolio. Many times we get an introduction to a firm, and they really don't have good books and records demonstrating the portfolio of cases that they have. So we always recommend outside of just tracking the expenses that have gone into them, track your timeline, you're reasonably, you know, estimated timeline of resolution for the cases, and then kind of high low it, I know what the popular thing for firms to do is and the low end, we expect to settle for x, or on the high end, if things go well, we anticipate why having an organized set of financials really helps, it can speed up the process immensely. So you don't have to create them once you go out looking for financing. And it helps the loan officer individual looking at the case, understand things and you know, kind of tell the story to any sort of approval committee helps us tell the story a little bit better if things are organized,Ron Bockstahler  8:15  you know, when the PPP loans came out last year, year and a half ago. And we my model, you know, we did a lot of webinars to help our law firms receive those loans. And we ran into several of them that hadn't done their taxes in going two years back. And I was I was a little surprised. But did you guys run into the same things I know you guys participated, you helped a lot of your clients with those programs. Did you see that? And then is that something that they should? I mean, they gotta look to how do they avoid that? INate Dinger  8:42  guess? Yeah, so we did run into that. And I would not just with law firms. But you know, with a number of our different clients. Thankfully, we were able to to work with everybody, we got 100% of our clientele, PPP that wanted it. So it was a big success story. From our end, we were very proud. It was some long days, it's a long night, you know, working 1214 16 hour days to ensure that everybody was going to get their funding, because if you think back, it's not that long ago, but it was very chaotic. And nobody knew what was coming next. We didn't know when the courts would open again, that sort of thing. So it was a priority for us to work with our clientele. But to your first point about you know, filing the tax returns and things I you know, it's a best practice for any type of business to to get the financials filed in a timely manner in professional service areas, unfortunately, are ones that, you know, some of the best lawyers in the world and some of the best doctors in the world are busy doing their thing day to day. They're busy treating patients or representing their clients and forget to do the backend things. So yeah, I think making that a priority. It certainly helps if you're looking for for financing.Ron Bockstahler  9:42  You know, Nate, I'll say another thing that surprised me as we're helping attorneys get the PPP loans. Several of them are with large banks and their, you know, solo or partner practice law firms, and they're with Chase and PNC, and they couldn't get anyone on the phone. So they couldn't even talk to someone about how they can apply for that loan. And I thought Why are you with that bank? It's not an appropriate bank for this your size of operation. I mean, you're less than $5 million, your operation? You know, that's where I think Signature Bank can really it really steps up and says, No, we'll talk to you to kind of talk to how you guys handle customer service and why you different from, you know, let's beat up on Chase and PNC.Nate Dinger  10:19  Yeah, absolutely. So I think the biggest difference is here, you work with people, you don't work with one 800 numbers, or anything along those lines, you'll always have a person's number to call him, you know, most of the time you have multiple people you can reach out to so you know, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, you know, you've got three or four other folks that you can call while I'm in the hospital, you know, probably hiring one of your lawyers to represent me. And that's that's been, you know, Mission one from day one, it signatures were a relationship focused institution, you know, big banks are, they're good for what they do, you know, the capital markets and things of that nature, they do it well. But I think PPP was a really good value prop, I guess, call it a validation for banks like ours, that we really did step up. In helped, we helped a lot of companies that came from big banks that were either told no, we're not going to process your application, or come back in two weeks, because we don't have time to handle the volume. We said, you know, what we're happy to help and stepped in and helped quite a few new clients for signature, you know, get their PPP funding, we help with the main street program, several other things along the way over the last couple years. But it's true, if you're at a bank, whether big or small, and you don't have a person to call, you're probably doing yourself a disservice. Because you know, when sun shining and everything's going fine, you may not need them. But on a rainy day, you know, when things get shaken up a bit, it certainly helps to have a warm body to call.Ron Bockstahler  11:39  And that's so I've owned a model office suite now for 20 years. And I've always had a call someone I call an individual, it's never been with a big bank. And when the bank a couple of times this has happened, the bank got bought by a bigger bank, and my banker, I just moved with my banker. And I was surprised that so many law firms didn't have a banker that they knew. So So I think hopefully, after this show, there are gonna be picking up the phone and calling you and calling your team and saying, Okay, we need to have I guess, let's answer this question. What are the hesitations for a lawyer, a small law firm, not to want to go with a small bank, what historically have been the things that you've heard?Nate Dinger  12:17  You know, over the historically it was location, you know, we're commercial held, we only have three offices. So we're not on every street corner, like a chase or a BFA. But with technology these days, you can deposit checks from your phone, from your desk anywhere. So you know, and the need for cash, actual cash has gone down significantly over the last, you know, call it 10 years. So a lot of the previous, you know, hesitation factors, you know, don't don't exist anymore. Or some people think that, oh, you know what, we're too small. Nobody really cares about us, or nobody will appreciate our business. And that couldn't be further from the case. You know, we appreciate every client Big or small, you know, and they're all treated the same way. You'll always have, you know, dedicated account officers, our technology is also second to none, given that we're not on every street corner, and we do business, primarily Chicagoland, but across the US, our online platform is, like I said, second to none, you can do any and everything that you could with the bigger bank with us these days. And we have to remain competitive in the tech space. Because because of that factor, our clients need to make the deposits they need to do everything that those places offer. But we offer all that plus, you know, a face and a handshake.Ron Bockstahler  13:27  It's funny, you say that I remember thinking I came back, I had my family out in Hawaii in January of 2020. And we came back and you know, the pandemic happened. And I would say going into August, September, I still had the cash, maybe it was $100 in my pocket that I had back in January because I hadn't spent cash and you know, while that cash has gone now, but I really haven't spent cash since because, you know, as you said, things have changed. We don't need an ATM on every corner. We don't eat cash all that much. So the needs of I think that's just the changing times. And law firms need to understand that they need to change also. So it opens the door to you know, quality banks, where you can actually talk to a person you know, your own person on a regular basis like Signature Bank, talk about it. Let's go the one big things that I do hear a lot of attorneys talking about that's or IOLTA accounts. And I know you guys have a lot of experience working with them and IOLTA accounts kind of talk about how you set those up. And you know why they want to go with you for their IOLTA accounts.Nate Dinger  14:24  Sure. So I think you know, we first things first, we really value and appreciate the law firms and understand the importance of these accounts. We know that things have to be you know, they have to be a well oiled machine and they can't have any hiccups. They can't have overdrafts, that sort of thing. So we from the very front end, understand and appreciate the importance of the IOLTA accounts. We take care of all the reporting that's required to the state meaning paying the interest sweeping it to, to them, so they're they're covered on that and we also have very robust fraud protection. It's ramped up, you know, even higher than normal for for a Catholic We do understand the appreciation of them for several different fraud prevention tools that we offer, and many layers you can you can stack on, to ensure that nobody gets their hands on, on your money. And, you know, from time to time that happens, you know, lawyers write a lot of checks to, to their clients and things. And every now and again, that gets in the wrong hands, but we do everything in our power to protect it when that happens. And you know, we've gotten a lot of business over the years, from lawyers that have had issues elsewhere. And, you know, then got referred to us because we do, you know, understand the importance of them. So, yeah, it's something we, we take seriously. And we also appreciate the firms trusting us, you know, with those accounts.Ron Bockstahler  15:40  So Nate, the attorney that referred me to you how I met you, as she's a personal injury law firm and just couldn't say enough good things. What are some of the special things you guys can do for personal injury law firms, or contingency for sci fi firms? Like I guess, they're more than just personal injury? So I should expand that?Nate Dinger  15:57  Sure, sure. So the number one thing that we do to those firms is we lend money, which is fairly unusual. If you talk to a lot of banks that have law firm clientele, the first thing they're going to ask you for is, let me see your accounts receivable aging, or something like that. And these firms don't generally have accounts receivable. So that's step one, we understand that, and we have our own set of metrics in things that we look at to value those firms. And on the flip side, lend them lend them money for their case expenses, or, you know, to help finance working capital, while they have resolved cases that are waiting to find, because oftentimes, these cases can have anywhere from, you know, 60 day to an 18 month tail on them, everything's resolved, you know, the money is going to be paid, it just takes forever to work through the process. The last 18 months, especially things got a long gated as courts were closed, and judges were unavailable and things like that. So those are things that signature understands and puts into the equation for financing that I don't think a lot of other competitors do.Ron Bockstahler  16:58  Now, that was definitely set you apart. I think it's very hard for a lot of law firms to find the financing they need to take on some cases. So great point. Let's chat about you guys are Chicago based. I mean, I know you're all across the country, but you really focus you take care of people in Chicago, let's talk about some of the organizations that you guys are out there supporting. Because I know that's a it's very important to a lot of the law firms out there that want to they're doing the same thing that make sure they take care of their, their hometown with you. Well, sure, sure. That with a little bit of a you know, I know Mr. Corey, I know you guys, but you guys got a long list, what are a few that really want it? Let's talk on?Nate Dinger  17:29  Yeah, so Ms. accordion is in a, you know, it's funny, we're, they're, they're pink, and you know, we, we count the money on their candy days, you know, when they collect other change. And you guys see, I'm getting your jelly beans and stuff out there. It's a really fun, you know, fun time of the year for us, because you really see the impact on a first hand basis is when they're all in, they're dumping their change in that sort of thing. So that just a great cause, you know, I was just at a gala last week for nonprofit schools called Instituto, and it's in the west side of Chicago. And we were there for their fundraiser. You know, there's quite a few different organizations, we really support the Evans scholar Foundation, which is a caddy scholarship for a needs based scholarship for kids that caddy and it's a full ride for four years for the individuals that qualify, and it's such it's a life changing thing for the kids that that get it, you know, we help with boys old girls hope, Mercy Home this lot. You know, it's really fun to see all the different organizations that are that our executive team and our, you know, our lending staff are involved with, I can go on for a while on all of these things you can tell they gets me excited. But yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun thing to do.Ron Bockstahler  18:34  Absolutely. I mean, look, I've been through your website, I've talked to some people within the organization, I know you guys are doing a lot for the community. So thank you very much, everyone. Appreciate that. But also, that's another reason why I think a lot of our law firms need to call you guys and talk about let's work with the firms that are helping our community. I think that's top priority, we got to be thinking about that. So I know you work with a lot of law firms, you know, what are some of the things you're seeing today, as far as what's changing in the business of law?Nate Dinger  19:00  You know, I think we're specifically today and or even the last 18 months, the closures really, the core closures really hurt a lot of our clientele. They just, they have a nice portfolio of cases and good cases and things of that matter, but they couldn't get things moved along. So both for their clientele that either needed the money or you know, needed help, they weren't able to do so. And it's not through any fault of the law firms. It's just kind of the, the crazy, hopefully once in a lifetime situation that we were in addition for signature, you know, we didn't panic, you know, we understand that these things are really out of out of our client's control. So we found ways to work with every single one of them. You know, I think the law firm industry as a whole, you know, it's funny, it's viewed as a high risk entity in banking terms. You know, we're very heavily regulated, you know, business and certain types of companies are considered high risk and a lot of that has to do with their law firms are handling money on behalf of their clients and a lot of have, in some situations a lot of money on behalf of their plants. So those types of things are a red flag for our auditors and any sort of governmental agency saying, Oh, how do we make sure things are on the up and up, and, you know, that's something that we take very seriously. And, you know, we know all of our clientele and are able to help them. And you know, kind of navigate some of those roads in the event there ever are issues, you know, every now and again, client will get their IOLTA account out of balance, you know, just by mistake or a bookkeeping error, you know, they cut a check for $10,000 instead of $1,000. And those are the things that we can help them clean up because it's getting more and more important and more heavily scrutinized as time goes on.Ron Bockstahler  20:40  So last, I think, a couple of things. I'm going to give you the last word, but I heard, I think it must have been a video with your CEO MC O'Rourke talking about character and the things you guys you know who you're banking with. And it might have been one of your videos where you guys talk about it's not the company, the law firm that pays the loan back, it's the owner, it's the individual. So talk to the character, talk to what you're looking for, as far as when you're out there meeting the right people, that's going to be the right let's call it the right law firm lawyer for Signature Bank.Nate Dinger  21:09  I think that's probably the most important see, if you will, you know, they in banking, you talk about credit, you talk about character, you talk about, you know, there's the four C's, but I think characters is number one, we like to look everybody in the eye and shake their hand, and really learn who they are, you know, how their firm operates. And you know, what they value and, you know, nine times out of 10, if we're on the same page with the owner of the firm, or the, you know, the different partners, we can find a way to help and it's just one of those, you know, call it old school, call it whatever you want one of those things that we'll never stop doing. Because we find it it's one of the most important things we do on a day to day basis is to get to know our get to know our clients.Ron Bockstahler  21:51  I think that's I think it just that's important in life know, dealing with the right people working with the right people. And you're right, I don't think that'll ever change. Right? A lot of a lot of things.Nate Dinger  22:01  Yeah, our CEO, he's got a couple of the cliche, but he says I got a guy. And if I don't have a guy, I need to have a guy that has a guy that I can I can talk to it's his old school way of of doing business, but you know what works? It's what I believe in as well. So rather than having a one 800 Number, you know, now you got a guy if you're listening to this, or gal do we have plenty of women on our team too, but I'd have be happy to be that guy. Well, nowRon Bockstahler  22:25  that anyone's listening to this show any lawyer out there listen, and now they got Nate, you got nature banker give Nate a call. They last word, what do you want the last word you want to leave our audience with about yourself about Signature Bank? Yeah, INate Dinger  22:36  think the number one thing we'd like to leave with the audience is that we are committed to this space, the legal, the legal space is something we really value and enjoy doing. You know, we talked about the individuals earlier, and it's probably some of the most fun clients that I have in this space as well. So I'd like the audience to know that they can call me about anything, whether it's, you know, I've got a deal in place with my current bank, is it good? Is it bad? What do you think that sort of thing so I'm happy to talk through any situation that that may arise and see if we can be a good fit. Sometimes we're not like we can't do business with everybody unfortunately. And if I'm unable to help, there's a good chance that I know somebody that will we've got a deep network in this space and hopefully know either with signature or someone that we know we can be evaluated to any of the listeners.Ron Bockstahler  23:22  So I lied so that my last question you know, you just made me think of litigation finance are you guys tying up or working with any litigation finance firms at this point in time?Nate Dinger  23:31  We don't really work directly with any of them it's funny we take we get business from and or refer business to you there are several in the area that we know sometimes when they have clients that are you know, already for a senior banker you know, like we're typically lower risk but also lower cost and in some of the litigation finance companies out there we get referrals from them and or we have clients that their risk appetite is a little more than ours. We have several that we can also refer to those litigation finance company so we know and we know them well but there's nothing directly you know, there's not a directly correlated back and forth for any of them.Ron Bockstahler  24:10  Sure. Okay. The best way for our audience listeners to get a hold of youNate Dinger  24:16  Sure. Telephones always on my direct line is 312-386-6904 Or feel free to email me and dinger which is m D i n g R at Signature Bank dot bank.Ron Bockstahler  24:31  Say that email again because that bank that's different.Nate Dinger  24:34  It is it's new. So yeah, it's N. dinger at Signature Bank dot bank.Ron Bockstahler  24:40  name has been great to have me on your show really appreciate you coming and talking to us and introducing our audience to Signature Bank we I think a lot of them want to give you a call after this show. So it really highlights what we're doing. October is financial awareness month at a modest so we're trying to really bring you you've had the CFO we've had Steve Metro with Metro financial come in and talk about how they can save more money. But you know, it all comes down to the bank got to have a strong bank and personal relationship with the banker is a must. If you are a small business, a solo law firm or a partner practice law firm, so appreciate you having on the show. Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll catch you again next week.Voiceover  25:17  Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you liked the show, tell a friend and please subscribe rate and review us on Apple podcast, Google Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. If you'd like to hear more about Ron or Amata go to a motto offices.com All the links are also available in Show NotesTranscribed by https://otter.ai

Steve Mesirow is the Senior Managing Director in Mesirow Wealth Management and he has been providing expert investment advice and financial planning strategies to his clients for over 25 years. In this episode, Steve talks about how law businesses are at a disadvantage because they register their taxes at the highest rates. He discussed all the ways in which lawyers can build and protect their wealth in a tax-advantaged way. Through systems called Cash Balance Plan, Donor Advised Funds, Profit-sharing, or Roth IRA, lawyers can do their best at their career without losing any of their well-earned money. Steve also talks about all the ways in which his company helps people - lawyers or otherwise - worry about things that are impactful, helping them save money in ways that are meaningful in the big picture.  Timestamps:Building and protecting wealth through a cash balance plan(2:07)Deduction through donor advised funds (14:02)The difference between fiduciary and non-fiduciary (23:22)Saving money in meaningful ways  (26:41)  “The best use of your time is to work on your business and not be following down the rules of different financial planning aspects or chasing down a couple of stocks. That might not be the best utilization of your time.” - Steve Mesirow  Steve Mesirow: Mesirow FinancialWebsite: http://www.mesirowfinancial.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenmesirow/ Steve Mesirow, Senior Managing Director in Mesirow FinancialWealth Management and Financial PlanningSteven Mesirow is a Senior Managing Director in Mesirow Wealth Management. He provides investment advice and financial planning strategies to individuals, business owners and charitable organizations that are designed to help accumulate, manage and preserve wealth.Steven joined the firm in 1993 and has more than 25 years of financial services experience.Steven serves on the Jewish United Fund Health and Human Services subcommittee. He has developed a social investment strategy; Mesirow Impact Management - a portfolio strategy that invests in companies with a positive corporate culture.Steven earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in history/political science from the University of Michigan, a Master of Arts in history from the University of Maryland and a Management Aptitude Test in teaching from the American University. Steve is a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ (CFP®) professional and a Certified Fund Specialist™ (CFS™). LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenmesirow/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. Great to have everyone here today. Our guest today is Steve Mesirow with Mesirow financial. If you're in Chicago, you definitely know Mesirow financial, one of the largest financial firms in the city, one of the top in the country. So see, let me give you a quick introduction. You know, we're just talking about this. So I'm going to mention that Steve's got a master's in history, a master's in teaching, started to go into teaching and then found his way back into financial planning, been doing it for 25 years now joined the firm that correct me if I'm wrong, Steve, but your grandfather founded. You joined the firm back in 1993. A couple things that I will I think are really, really great on Steve part is he's he serves on the Jewish United fund Health and Human Services Subcommittee. He's developed a social investment strategy Metro prot impact it Metro impact management, portfolio strategy that invests and invest in companies with a positive corporate culture. Steve's got a ton of things he's done. So I'll stop right there. I'll let Steve take off. Steve, welcome to the show. Great to have you.Steve Mesirow  1:30  Thank you, Ron, it's a pleasure to see you again.Ron Bockstahler  1:32  Yeah, we got to get into that Oh, whole history and teaching thing down the road. But, you know, let's start off. But you work with a lot of law firms, a lot of attorneys that make a lot of money, and how they can protect that money, and maybe keep more of it from taxes. Let's start there. And let's lay out a couple things I want to talk about today.Steve Mesirow  1:50  Sure. The first subject that I think you and I want to talk about as lawyers, we were just discussing lawyers, all of their income is ordinary income taxed at the at the highest rates. And so the issue with lawyers is how can we help them protect and build their wealth and do this in a tax advantaged way. And the most powerful tool out there to how to this is what's called a cash balance plan. And a cash balance plan is a supercharged retirement plan, which will let a attorney put let an individual put away somewhere around it depends on their age, but it could be around $200,000 A year of pre tax income, up to that amounts. And the way they get there is a regular 401k, you have your limits, you can put away a little bit each year with this works. The way cash balance plan works is you're giving yourself a very generous pension plan. And the government lets you put away a very generous pension plan where you get to fund about $2.6 million by the time you retire. And so they back into the math of that and say, Okay, if we're going to get to 2.6 million, and you're 50 years old, here's how much you'd have to put away each year to do that. And so you get to put it away in a tax advantaged account, which grows like gross, like any regular retirement plan. And then the end game, the end game usually is when you reach that when you reach that limit, you roll it into an IRA and take it out in your retirement. Like I like normal Ira distributions.Ron Bockstahler  3:34  Okay, ton of questions here. And I want to go back, we're going to talk about the cash balance plan first, and then I want to go back into a little bit of your history. Because I remember when I first I'll go there right now, I remember when I first met you I go man, the only Metro I know is like Metro financial, you know, the one whose names on that big building over there on Clark Street. And you go Yeah, yeah, that sounds like, wow, you're Steve mesereau. That's pretty impressive. So let's go right there real quick. And then we're going to come back to this balanced plan. Tell us the history and and how is it that we're talking with the Metro from Metro financial, which like I said, everyone in Chicago knows,Steve Mesirow  4:11  oh, my grandfather started. My grandfather started from actually, he was a he graduated law school before he was 21. And he had to wait when you couldn't take the bar until you were 21. So he took a job at an investment firm, and stayed in the business forever. So he started the firm about 84 years ago, as a one man shop, and then took on partners to kind of more partners. My father was partner number 10 and 1960. And we're now about 500. Now about 500 employees, of which about 200 are shareholders. So in many ways, a law firm is the only thing that is similar to that where you have such a diverse ownership of you have 200 Two donors in a 500 person and a 500 person firm. And, and what happens is, then that affects the culture that affects the culture of the firm, because you have so many owners walking through, and everyone is more concerned about where we're going to be five years from now than the next six months, there's no, there's no quarterly earning pressure. Because there's no outside, there's no outside shareholders, you can justRon Bockstahler  5:25  focus on the clients. And you have I mean, you have clients other than attorneys, but attorneys, I mean, the successful attorneys are making a lot of money. And as you and I talked about, it's a cash income. It's not like they're getting invested shares, stock options,Steve Mesirow  5:40  rights. So the problem attorneys face, I deal with wealthy individuals, and they generally have, yeah, I deal with wealthy individuals. And the problem attorneys face is all of their wealth is developed through ordinary income that's taxed at the highest rate, as opposed to, you know, I have clients who are small business owners, and some who are getting stock options from, from the public companies they work for, but the lawyer is faced with ordinary income. And, and your population is particularly, is particularly good, because they're all small business, they're all small business owners, as well. And as small business owners, there's some complications you have being a small business owner, there's definitely some challenges there. But there's also the other side of the coin is there's opportunities that you can change things and change the construct, so that it favors you. So that favors you. And you can take advantage of different of different things.Ron Bockstahler  6:43  Yeah, you're the you're the but the seven 800 law firms that I work with in a lotta they're right in this wheelhouse of, they're making quite often a lot of money. But what do you do how you got to pay your taxes, so then they're finding ways to go spend the money, maybe add an employee's they don't need it, which some people on the outside might look at and say, Well, why are they doing that with like, why not, because I'm going to pay taxes anyway, I'm just reducing my tax burden. But instead of spending money uselessly, where they're not really getting a true value on it, there's a cash balance plan, they could be throwing a couple $100,000, before taxes,Steve Mesirow  7:16  before taxes in your and your construct also works particularly well. Because when you set up a retirement plan, you have to include, you have to include all your employees. Now, that's not that big of a deal. And if you have, you know, a handful of employees, these plans still work really well. But if you outsource in your model, if you outsource your paralegal in your legal secretary and some other and some other functions, if you're the only employee, or if you're one of the only, if you're on one of the only employees, you can be generous as hell to your pension plan, because your your retirement plans are in fact, youRon Bockstahler  7:59  know, that goes back to your construct and model is particularly well suited for this model, when it comes down to is education, you gotta you know, they need to understand that there's a better way to do things and, and when you told me about this cash balance program, it blew my mind, I was like, wow, there's the way to save that much money before taxes. I'd never heard of this. In fact, I went to a couple of state planning attorneys who had never heard of this, which, you know, probably shocked me even more, but we need to be in front of them.Steve Mesirow  8:28  There's another side of this, which is also a little bit of a benefits is I'm not sure how great of a concern this is. But when you put your money into a retirement plan, there are also creditor protection facilities. And so when you're running your own small business, it's usually not an issue, but in the back of your mind. You know, if someone's going to be sued, it's you. So, right, there is no there is no one else to hide behind. So in fact, the creditor protection piece is you're getting that you're getting that sort of as an afterthought for free. And it's, it varies by state to state, but ERISA plans, which retirement plans are have a very good, very good protections in there. So it's a nice added, it's a nice added benefit. It's not a reason to do. It's not a reason to do these, but it's a nice, it's a nice added benefit to juicing up your retirement plans.Ron Bockstahler  9:24  Just be I'm thinking of a specific attorney who's 61 years old, has been practicing for quite some time. And, you know, he spent the first say 20 years of his practicing life paying for kids school, both of his daughters went on to the law school and got a master's in a PhD. So you know, he spent money but now he's at that prime, I guess, in the last 10 years have been that prime age where it's, I can save because I don't really got all these other expenses. But is that the age that you say, Okay, it's time to look at that or do you say, Hey, I just told you I was talking to a 32 year old family law attorney who's doing very well right now is that is this 32 The time that says hey, let's start Maybe start with 100,000 a year? And can you change this pension amount? Or is that to be fixed? Give us some details.Steve Mesirow  10:07  So it actually, what happens with one of these retirement, you know, I would say, anytime is a good time to save. Now, when you're 32, you also have the time, the power of time. And whatever you put away, even if it's small amount is got the compounding effect of year after year after year. And that's very powerful. The way a way a pension plan works is you get to favor, you get to discriminate, that's the only plan, you're allowed to discriminate in favor of older people. So the 32 year old might only be able to put away 80 to $100,000, the 60 year old you're talking about can probably put away $250,000 or more, because they have a shorter window to reach a shorter window to save money and build up their pension until retirement plan. So it favors the old. Now, if you have what's kind of interesting with these plans is also work. So you have one or two employees, I know you'd say your six year old has two or three employees. The odds are they he is older, he or she sorry, he or she is older than the employees. And so when you put away money for each person in your plan, you get to skew it in favor of the older person, if you want now you can do the same amount, you can do the same percentage across the board to everybody. But if you want to skew in favor of the older you can, and that's and that almost always works out instead almost always works out in favor of the owner.Ron Bockstahler  11:40  So we're talking what's the highest tax rate right now? Is it 36.9? Or,Steve Mesirow  11:46  Yes, it's going to, and it's probably going to go up a couple percent.Ron Bockstahler  11:50  And then we also because if you're in the state of Illinois, you also can defer an extra 5%.Steve Mesirow  11:57  So Illinois State taxes 5%. And, and that's, I have no idea what's going to happen with taxes in Illinois, Illinois, my guess is that they're going to stay the same or go up. But that's purely a guess I would have no great insight to that. But there's a fluke in Illinois tax. And that is retirement plan money. When you put in, you get you're deferring on the Illinois state tax. When you take money out of a retirement plan, or IRA in Illinois, there's no state tax. So, for example, say you have your 60 year old person, they put away $100,000 into a retirement plan on a pre tax basis. Alright, so they're saving on Illinois and they're saving on federal, they turn around the next month, they turn around Jan, they put to put and do it for 2001 and 2022. They take the money out, they take out the $100,000 they're gonna pay federal ordinary income tax, but they're not going to pay Illinois. So by just moving your money in and out of a retirement plan, you're saving 5% for Illinois, right away.Ron Bockstahler  13:14  So I just I want to be honest with you, you just went above my paygrade.Unknown Speaker  13:18  But yes,Ron Bockstahler  13:20  that's pretty exciting. I mean, that's a reason just to give you a call and talk about this,Steve Mesirow  13:24  right? It's and it's a bizarre, yes, it's a bizarre Fluke in Illinois, that that is allowed most other states tax retirement plans as ordinary income. But Illinois has, has that provision in there for whatever reason that state retirement plans and pensions are not currently taxable.Ron Bockstahler  13:41  So I want our listeners just remember cash balance plan, write that down. You want to talk to Steve about that. And we're gonna move on, but I will definitely probably come back to that at some point. Let's talk about some of the other options that are out there for our solo practitioners, our partner practice law firms that are just looking how they can keep some of their own money. You know, anotherSteve Mesirow  14:02  great tool and I don't discuss this with you is donor advised funds. If you are philanthropic, say you were giving away $10,000 a year to your various charities, whatever they whatever they may be, you've probably lost your deduction. You've probably lost your deduction of whether you when you can itemize that in Illinois and some of the in New York and some of the other high tech states, the deduction became not as valuable. What you can do to cross that threshold is instead of doing $10,000 a year, you can do $50,000 You can bunch a couple years so 250 $1,000 In one year, get your deduction. And the donor advised fund works like your own philanthropic fund, you then dish out the money year by year to your charities whenever they're ready for whenever you're ready to give it away so you still give away The same $10,000 a year you were planning on doing. But you can manipulate your deduction into one year to cross that threshold. That is also very helpful for if your income fluctuates. So, so theoretically, if you're going to say you're going to retire in four years, but you're planning on giving to your causes for the rest of your life, you want to accelerate your deductions into those last years where you've got your high income. So you can put it into a donor advised fund. So I've had people accelerates their deductions, until those higher tax years, and then they have the money to give out to their charities, later on. Or, ahead, some if your income fluctuates, for whatever reason, your business, you have some big years, you have some low years, you shove your deduction and your charitable contributions into the year that it's more meaningful for your taxes, and still give out your money as time goes by.Ron Bockstahler  16:06  So you're talking you're talking about the years, the maybe the last 510 years of work, work years, we still have that heavy taxable income coming in probably the most taxable income you've ever had in your life, is that when you want to create and not you create your own donor advised fund is there organizations out there you could do it through,Steve Mesirow  16:23  there's organizations, you can do it through. So Fidelity has one Schwab has one, there's a number of them, it's there's a number of them that do it on a on a very cheap basis. And, and it's, it's relatively easy. And then while the money's in there, it can sit and grow each year. But depending on you know, some people's income fluctuates of either they may have over their careers fluctuate from the private sector to the public sector, and their income may fluctuate. Or, you know, they settle a big case. And they have big income one year, and they have lower income and their other years. I'm sorry, I missed that. No, no, no,Ron Bockstahler  17:03  I'm, we're doing this show remotely, and my children are home. So I was asking them to keep it down. Sorry about that. Yeah, that's what happens when you have five young children coming home from school.Steve Mesirow  17:17  You're here. Alright, so let's jump into are thereRon Bockstahler  17:21  such a thing as a 401k? Or profit sharing plan for solo or a small firm?Steve Mesirow  17:27  Absolutely. And you can do that. And that may be the answer. If you are want to contribute. If you want to contribute up to 50 $60,000 a year, then a solo 401k, or profit sharing plan is probably the answer or sometimes a SEP, those might be the answer this cash balance part is only on the accelerated when you want to do a greater a greater version. And sometimes, sometimes you work them in combination with each other. But the first part is to sit down and figure out what is the need, what am I after here? You know, what am I after here? What can I do? What what flexibility does each plan? What flexibility does he chant plan have? And what are the practical costs of implementing of implementing such a thing. And there are, and some things are great in theory, but then there's the practicality of how it how it works out.Ron Bockstahler  18:25  So I'm not going to. So we're looking at like a 401k, sap of a profit sharing plan of up to you say 60s up toSteve Mesirow  18:32  about $65,000. Okay, that's that's the route to go. And the other piece that people can do, at the moment, although Congress was talking about maybe changing this rule is you can do what's called a backdoor Roth IRA, and a backdoor Roth IRA. Even if you're doing your profit sharing plan, or 401k, or one of these other regular retirement plans, you can do what's called a backdoor Roth IRA at the moment. And what that does is you can make a, you're allowed to make a non deductible IRA contribution, you do that, and then at some point later, you convert that IRA to or to, you convert that to a Roth IRA. And the cost to do that is you pay the difference of your basis to what it's worth. So if you contribute $6,000 to a Roth IRA, your basis is $6,000. You convert it a month later, and it's worth $6,005. You pay tax on the $5 gain. But you can make you've essentially made yourself a Roth contribution of $6,000. And you can do that for yourself, and you can do that for your spouse. And that's is very powerful, especially if you're younger and you have time to start BenefitsRon Bockstahler  20:00  of that Roth IRA, you're not going to be wanting a Roth in a Roth IRA, you're not going to pay taxes on the income,Steve Mesirow  20:07  correct. It's always after tax money. So the way to think about retirement plans, at some point, the government is going to get their tax. So on a 401k, profit sharing, or pension, or cash pounds pension plan, you're putting your money in pre tax, and then you're taking it out in later years, when and as you take it out in later years, then you start paying the tax as it comes out in later years, a Roth IRA, you're putting the money in after tax, and you're putting the money in after tax and estate after tax. And the plus to both the plans is they get to grow tax advantaged. Whatever it earns every year, you're not taxed on it. So one way to think about all these retirement plans is, if you had in your own name, and it was earning money, the money that would be going to the taxes, you get to keep in your account. And that money that would be going to taxes gets to earn money, year after year after year. And that's why the compounding is so much more powerful in a retirement plan. Whether it's a Roth or a regular, it's so much more powerful, because all that money that would have been going to the government gets to keep working for you year after year.Ron Bockstahler  21:20  And I remember talking about the Roth is 6000 per year, each year, but you are we're saying the backdoor as we would start it with a regular IRA. Each year,Steve Mesirow  21:31  you do the same, you do six? Yes, your clientele most likely is not eligible to do a regular Roth IRA. Because they're ready to die. Yeah, okay. Their income is too high, which is why this, but this backdoor is sort of a anachronism of the of the code that you can, you can make a non deductible IRA, and then convert and then convert it converted later and you're only paying and you're not paying, you're not you're only paying taxes on money over your basis, which is going to be insignificance. Right.Ron Bockstahler  22:08  And those years when you're not when maybe if you have a bad year, incomes not as high, so your taxes not gonna be high, maybe those are the years you take and do the conversion, would that make more sense? If youSteve Mesirow  22:17  have a low year, it's a great year to convert regular retirement, same money to Roth, and take advantage of any year you have a lower income. And ultimately, you know, nobody, it's not bad to have a combination of personal money, ordinary retirement money and Roth money. Because, you know, while we can go with what the rules are now, it's good to have flexibility because the tax rules will change over the next 2030 years. They always have so laid out, keep a little flexibility.Ron Bockstahler  22:52  Absolutely. And you've talked about I four distinct programs. Here we had our cash balance plan, which is amazing. You got your 401k, your profit sharing program, your IRA and then your Roth IRA. Let's talk about financial planning as a whole, because I think all of us, we hear from we there's a lot of financial planners out there, at least if you're running in our circles, I think you talked to a lot of what's the difference? You know, what's it to being a fiduciary and not being a fiduciary? Kind of? What do we need to look for Steve?Steve Mesirow  23:22  So first off, there's two different ways people operates. There's our IAS, which stands for registered investment advisors. And they will, they will all operate as fiduciaries. And I'm in that category. We operate as a fiduciary where a brokerage house operates under under different status of the appointment of the brokerage rules, and they're held to a lower standard. And I don't need to tell lawyers the difference between fiduciary and not fiduciary. But if it's the same price, I'd probably rather have a fiduciary still most wirehouses most of the big firms that you most of the big national chains, you think of operating under brokerage rules, despite what's in their commercials, when when push comes to shove, they're your brokerage clients. The other thing I would say to your group is, even if you're good at even if you're good at investments, and you enjoy it, it's not the best use of your time. You have to think of your business as a business and what's the best allocation of my time as a resource. And you've got some terrific specialized knowledge and qualifications that most other people don't have. So the best use of your time is to work on your business and not be following down the rules of different financial planning aspects or chasing down you know, chasing down a couple of stocks. That might not be the best utilization of your time. The other piece that we often do for people and part of what makes it fun as well, we start with what the clients after, and what's going on in their life and trying to make their money fit their life. We've got tools, where technology is great nowadays, I can suck in the data from the bank accounts, the mortgage, the insurance policy, the swap accounts, the old 401k, it all sucks into one place. And I have a living, breathing balance sheet that updates every night. And so I can see exactly my clients. And I can see their net worth every day updated both our assets and liabilities updated each each night. And what that does for me is allows me our financial planning tools to make projections and figure and help answer the questions of, can I retire in three years? Can we buy the second house? I want to send my kids to private school? What is that going to mean? Can we join this country club or not? What if we downsize our house? What if we upsize our housing? Those are the questions that I like to discuss with people. And I think those are the more interesting, those are the more interesting questions to discuss, because those are more meaningful. And then we we have some clients where we tell them look, it's you're gonna run out of money at 83 years old. That doesn't sound that old to me anymore.Ron Bockstahler  26:34  Not today, not today, where I was at grandma's 100th birthday party a couple weeks ago. So 83 is young.Steve Mesirow  26:41  Right? Right. And so And life is full of choices. If we do x, what's the consequence of that? Can it be, or I've had other times where I've had people who were trying to lower their spending and increase their savings, but they were doing it in meaningless ways. They were going out to dinner less, or they were doing little things that were impacting their lives a lot. But weren't that meaningful to the big picture. So I want my I want my people to worry about the right things that are impactful. And that sweat the little things that aren'tRon Bockstahler  27:18  its history, I don't know that do you or your clients Ever think about that year when they start to make more money on their investments than on their day to day annual income? Is that a that a year you celebrate?Steve Mesirow  27:34  Yes, that would be well, that's I like to refer to that as your your when you reach financial independence, it's your assets can produce enough to support your lifestyle. And then you may want to keep working, because you enjoy it. So you want to keep building you want to enjoy, you want to keep building your wealth, whatever the you know, whatever the reason, terrific. You know, that's, that's great. But it's nice to know, in the back of your minds, hey, I have this, I have this here. And I'm doing this for my enjoyment. And so maybe I don't need to, maybe I don't need to put up with x.Ron Bockstahler  28:13  So there's two things I want. I mean, I want to like paint a scenario for our listeners, let's talk about that. 32 year old family law attorney and let's give her some objectives. Let's say she's gonna I mean, most of us love to work. And most of the attorneys I'm with, they work until they can't work anymore, you know, well into their 70s or 80s. But let's just say she wants to quit at 70. And she wants to walk away with $5 million. Just hypothetical. I mean, can we work backwards? And is that what you do when you work? When you sit down with someone and say, let's work? What are you going to do? Let's figure it all out.Steve Mesirow  28:45  We work backwards, either from $1 figure, like like a x x dollars, or we work from, hey, I'm gonna need $250,000 A year after tax to live my life because the other part of this is while we have these different pieces of money, they're all taxed it different. They have different tax implications. And so the issue is, how much money can I pull out after tax a year and we have, we have tools and software that helped model that. And usually what I like to do with the client is I'm a big believer of getting their other professionals in the same room. So once a year, I often meet with my clients and their accountants or every couple years, the clients, the accountant and the estate attorney. And what I find is that each of us helps make the other one better at their job. The information that each of us has helps the other helps the other immensely. And it also while it's an investment while it's in Watson initial investment of my time, it ends up saving In the lots of time, because decisions are made much quicker and easier with your whole board of advisors in one room, there's no, what I was finding, before I did this is the client was the messenger between each person and the client shouldn't be the messenger. And they might not relay everything with the subtleties that they each of us or our speaking. But then it's real easy for the client, everybody's in the same room. And what often happens is the client then turn on make a suggestion, the client will turn to the accountant attorney and say, Is this what I should do? And the attorney and the accountant say, Yes, that's exactly what our other people are doing. And we cut right to the chase. So it ends up being a big time saver for all the parties, it also ends up getting a little bit better results. Because when the accountant or attorney and or myself are operating in a vacuum, and don't know what the other person is doing is part of the plan. You know, it's it's each of us as a means to the clients end.Ron Bockstahler  31:06  Right. Let's talk a little bit about because you got a timeframe, right. So you're practicing law, you got your own practice, when do you make a decision to sell? And get out? And then what do I do with the funds that I, you know, maybe it's an urn out, maybe it's a five year earner, but let's say it's a five year or not with a balloon at the end, and you're picking up this $2 million? At the end? What do I do with that $2 million? You know, how would you consult on something like that,Steve Mesirow  31:31  give us some ideas, it depends back towards that, that picture that you just painted, where the person wants to get to, I want to get to $250,000 a year, and my kids educated, which I know is going to cost 50,000 A year for these four years, or I'm talking to a bunch of professionals seven years ago, seven years of school. So we back out through that. And then we can see where we can take risk and where we can't take risks. And from where I sit, that's I often the often I have people who are too reluctant to take risk because of the of the ups and downs of the stock market. And my greatest fear from where I sit, is that somebody lives a really long, healthy, a long, healthy life. And so being too cautious in the short term can end up hurting them if they live to 105. Like grandma. Yeah. So that's what I want to reserve and protect against in the so what I often do is we set up some money that's safe, that's buying us that's giving us our time, to an our staying power to wait through any lousy period and lousy periods is that they might come they will come. It's like winter, I know it's coming at some point. So there will be some horrible down years, there will also be some wonderful, great years. So as long as you have the staying power, in the short term to get through that you can invest for the long term and get your real growth and build your wealth. That's, that's meaningful for you, and wonderful for your family as well.Ron Bockstahler  33:18  I like the way you got that reference on Game of Game of Thrones in there. Yeah, Winter's coming. It's inevitable. They're gonna have you know, it's funny, if you'd look at the last 20 years, I mean, I've owned my company for 20 years now. And every 10 years, there's something you know, there's the oh, 809 crisis that was supposedly a once in a lifetime financial meltdown, which I'm doubting that that's actually the case. And now we've had this pandemic, that's really set people back, but it's actually if you if you pivoted in certain businesses, you've done really well. So yeah, you know, within 10 years, there's gonna be something else that's gonna go, Whoa, it's gonna hit us.Steve Mesirow  33:51  I assume that out of 10 years, we're always going to have to terrible years and the reasons different every time if we knew. You know, there's things we can point to right now, that make me nervous. But it's often the something that nobody's thought of. Nobody thought of the pandemic. Nobody thought that the mortgage financial crisis would balloon the way it said. And there will be something new. It's there for sure. But the if you have the staying power to sit through it, you end up just fine.Ron Bockstahler  34:21  Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's, we're gonna be wrapping up. So Steve, give us some final thoughts, things you want to relay to our listeners, and then we'll then we want to close with how they can reach out to you also.Steve Mesirow  34:32  So this is good fun stuff for me. And I have a team of people with me, I've got some younger people, I've got some, I've got some other colleagues, and we try and find a fit. We try and find a fit for everybody and not everybody has to be a fit for me, but I'm happy to sit down and talk and see if we can help them and who they might be a help for or who might be the right fit for them. I would say that this is this is not always the best use of your time to do it yourself. There are things that I have that there's things that I see, because we do this every day. There's some times for the higher end clients or sometimes different investments that we would that we get to see, because we're doing this every day. And the little bit of you're paying somebody which generally works out to be somebody paying somewhere between three quarters and 1% is a normal is a normal rate, that an advisor and advisor, whether it's me or someone else down the block, should be able to add that much value, and a add value over time. And secondly, protect you from the one or two mistakes that might happen. over 10 years, that'll be critical, or to bring an opportunity to you that might be critical. Over time.Ron Bockstahler  35:47  You mentioned mistakes, but, you know, you want to point out that a small mistake at the time you do it could cost you hundreds of 1000s of dollars over the time, a 2030 year savingsSteve Mesirow  35:58  period. There's this whole field where we're hardwired as human beings, there's a whole psychology element to this. There's a field called behavioral finance, which postulates and studies that we're hardwired as human beings to make bad financial decisions. And it's nobody's fault. It just is. And the biggest, the most obvious one that I've seen 100 times in my career is people will extrapolate whatever's just happened the past three or six months will continue forever, except that it never does. So when things are good, people are sending me in money, because they only see things going up. And they hear their neighbors talking. And they think this is just going to keep going forever. And so they send in money when markets are high. When the markets are crashing, people extrapolate if I lost 20% In the past two months, and the downtrends are always quick and sharp. If I lost 20% In two months, hell in six months, you know, in six months, I'm gonna have this permanent, terrible dent that I'm never going to be able to recover from. I'll sell out now and buy back in when things are good. Except theRon Bockstahler  37:12  downturns are quick. And there's so easily seeable in the after, you know after. Yeah, in retrospect, we all know it retrospect. But yeah, we don't know what went before it happensSteve Mesirow  37:24  in people. It's like trying to catch a falling knife. It's people extrapolates it, it's so hard to pin, when's the bottom? It's an impossible, it's an impossible task. And then when people try and buy back in, it's mentally impossible, because if you were uncomfortable when the market was at 18,000, how do you possibly buy back in at 20,020 4028? So it puts them in an impossible situation? Also, yeah, go ahead, finish the last thought. There's also sometimes tools and opportunities that come with a crash. Sometimes there's great assets that, okay, your stuff dropped, but there's something else that great, that also dropped, that they dropped that you can take advantage of. And that's the time to act and, and really part of it is to have a plan and be ready for these things to happen. Have your contingency plans ready? For what happens in case things go down? In case things go up? There's there's got to be contingency either way.Ron Bockstahler  38:25  Steve, I want you we didn't talk about this. I hadn't mentioned it before. But Monte Carlo modeling, I know you use some form of it, or could you explain to our listeners what that is? And yeah, I mean, that's a great reason why you want to use a professional financial planner to start with. But Ken, let's talk about MonteCarlo modeling.Steve Mesirow  38:43  So someone developed Monte Carlo, because at first when people were making models, they said, Okay, here's what happens if we earn 6% a year forever. And we can model out how your portfolio does and your withdrawal rates. And everything works out smoothly, nicely, except that the stock market never behaves quite like that. Monte Carlo accounts for the variability of returns. So there might be a long term return of six or 8%. But in getting there, there's a minus 20. A plus 25, a minus seven, a minus six A plus 30. So what Monte Carlo does, is it takes it takes the returns and puts them in random orders to see what your probability of success is going to work out your withdrawal rates, you know what your withdrawal rate is going to be? Because you know, I need I need $100,000 A year to live on whatever that may be. But if you get a if you retired in 2002 1007, right before the crisis, right before the financial crisis that may mess up, that may mess up your plans because the very first year, the year retired and taking money out was a minus 30% year. So the Monte Carlo takes all the returns of the past 100 years, puts them in various orders, and tries to figure out a probability of probability of success. And then you measure that by saying, okay, Ron, your probability of your plan success is 86%. Is that high enough for you to be comfortable? Or do you need to be at 95% for you to retire and be comfortable, maybe you need to work another year and a half, to move your probability of success and build up your wealth from 85% to 95%. Because I want you sleeping at night, I don't want you to have an ulcer or to have to change your lifestyle. Once you're retired, it's hard to change your lifestyle and who wants to mean, right? And you kind ofRon Bockstahler  40:59  want to enjoy the rest. And I think it's very important for you to realize that we're living longer. So you don't plan for like this 10 year retirement just good chance you're gonna have 2535 year retirement maybe longer. That you got to be thinking through. Yeah, definitely don't want to do it yourself. Steve. It's been great talking to you. Thanks so much for coming on the show. What's the best way for our listeners to reach out to you?Steve Mesirow  41:21  You can email me at Steve s te ve period mesereau mes IR o w@mesereau.com. Or they can contact Amata and you and Jeremy can pass them on to you and share my content the monthsRon Bockstahler  41:38  me absolutely anyone wants to give me a call reach out to us you can everyone knows how to get a hold of me Ron be at my offices calm. I will share information Steve is wonderful to work with. I can't say enough great things like that. Anyone that's in Chicago knows Metro financials, one of the largest financial firms in the city and been around for would you saySteve Mesirow  41:55  8085 years nowRon Bockstahler  41:58  five years. Great, great organization and great person and Steve. So definitely reach out to him. You're working so hard to make your money. But make sure you're putting it away. And and I guess deferring your tax burdens so that you can actually save more money and be prepared when you are ready to start taking a little more time off. So see, think me and I should they really appreciate having you.Steve Mesirow  42:19  A pleasure. Always fun, Ron.Ron Bockstahler  42:22  Thanks for listening, everyone. You've been listening to Ron Boxall and Steven Metro on the 1958 lawyer Tune in next week. All of October is financial awareness month. So we're going to be talking with a CFO coming up in the next week and learning how we can be making this money or keeping this money that we can actually save with Steve. So thanks for joining us, everyone. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Ryan Kimler is the Founder of Financial Clarity, working with solo and partner practice law firms, bringing them financial clarity to grow their law practice into successful and profitable businesses. In this episode, Ryan talks about how important financial discipline and accounting is for a law firm and how invaluable the guidance of a CFO or accountant can be on that regard. They also discuss how the CFO and accountant is not only useful for keeping your law firm financially uncompromised, but also to project future earnings and actions that must be taken to ensure the firm's profit for each of its members.  Timestamps:Why does a law firm need a CFO (0:50)Getting past the frustration of the financial aspect of running a law firm (10:15)Reducing the time spent trying to manage IOLTA accounts (19:03)Tips for saving your law firm's funds and increasing it's income(21:04) “Accounting and finance doesn't have to be the scary part of your firm… we want to be your guide, help you out, give you a clear direction and clean financials and bring clarity around the numbers of your law firm” - Ryan Kimler Ryan Kimler, Financial ClarityWebsite: https://www.financialclarityllc.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryankfinancialclarityllc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rkimlerBlog: https://financialclarityllc.blogspot.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiLyqCOvxvnnlr3_6BOGqww Ryan Kimler, Founder of Financial ClarityCFO and Accounting for Law FirmsRyan Kimler is an Accountant and CFO. His passion is in helping attorneys run their law firm by the numbers to increase profitability and cash flow. He helps attorneys spend more time working on their business instead of in their business so that lawyers can get back to crushing their business instead of the other way around. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryankfinancialclarityllc/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:28  Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I'm your host Ron box dollar. Today we are joined by CFO Ryan Kindler, founder of financial clarity. Ryan's firm works with solo and partner practice law firms, bringing them financial clarity to grow their law practice into successful and profitable business is something that we all want. Ryan, welcome to the show.Ryan Kimler  0:47  Thanks a lot, Ron. It's great to be here today.Ron Bockstahler  0:49  Absolutely. Let's get right down to it. I mean, why is the law firm need a CFO?Ryan Kimler  0:54  That's a great question. So a lot of people, you know, they hear the term CFO, and the first thing that they think of is probably Google, or Apple, right, some large company. And then I think I don't need a CFO, I'm just a small business owner, right? However, a CFOs job is really to track profit, and cash flow, and then go analyze the company's financial strengths and weaknesses, and process what the corrective actions should be. So even, you know, small businesses, you know, in order for them to continue to grow and be more profitable, they need a CFO, they need someone in their corner that can analyze the numbers, look at the financial strengths and weaknesses and propose corrective actions.Ron Bockstahler  1:37  It's interesting. I remember when PPP first came out back in was at April of 2020. And we did a live webinar on it trying to introduce a lot of our law firms to you can go get people, you're qualified, right, you qualify for PPP. But you have to have done last year's taxes. Yeah. And I was shocked at how many like, man, I'd like this is great, but I can't apply because I haven't even filed my 2019 taxes. Yeah, 2018? I think I was it was going back. And I was surprised with what I considered the financial, lack of financial discipline, it's so many firms. How can we change that what kind of process can be put in place? Let's say I'm a brand new attorney gonna go off on my own. Maybe I only have $500,000 book a business to start with. So it's not big, but yeah, potentially can grow? What do I need? How do I get started?Ryan Kimler  2:31  Yeah, absolutely. So you know, the big thing that, you know, we bring up to our clients when we're working with them is, you know, we, we really want to be their guide. And, you know, help them understand that accounting, and finance doesn't have to be the scary part of your firm, right? It doesn't have to be the unknown part that is like, I don't want to go talk to my accountant, right? You know, we want to be your guide we want, we want to be your friend, we want to help you out, we want to give you a clear direction and clean financials and bring you clarity around the numbers of your law firm. And I think that's what every firm needs. You know, one of the big things that's changed over the last five years is, you know, with technology and zoom and things like that, and we've advanced so far because of the pandemic, you know, attorneys, you can go out now and find accountants and CFOs that specialize in working with law firms, as our firm does. And you don't have to just go to the generalized accounting firm or the generalized bookkeeper down the street that handles everybody's small business and town. That's kind of a catch 22 because they aren't specialized. And so they don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of a law firm and how to help you. And as an owner, of a law firm, you don't necessarily know what's out there and what's available of how much help you can really get from a financial partner that can work with you that specializes in law firms, and has been exposed to lots of different law firms and lots of different systems.Ron Bockstahler  3:59  Ryan, let's talk a little bit the financial model. I think a lot of firms say I'm a to partner law firm, and we're ready to hire someone. Yeah, put some numbers behind it. What's it mean to hire somebody? I mean, do they? I mean, can you help them? financially justify the higher I guess is the question.Ryan Kimler  4:17  Yeah, absolutely. So the, you know, a lot of our clients we put on profit first, which if you're not familiar, it's basically a way of dividing your income that comes into the firm into a few different buckets. So you can cover your owner payments, your taxes and your operating expenses. And so one of the first things that we look at is, you know, what's it going to cost to hire this person. And for that, we use a couple different online tools to calculate like payroll taxes and estimated benefit costs and things like that. Do you have the money that's been allocated into your operating expense bucket to go out and hire that person, because if you don't have the money, you can't hire the person, right? And then you just, you're just going to be shorting yourself profit and cash flow in the future. So that's one of the First things that we look at and then one of the second things we look at is okay, let's say you do have the money, and you do have enough in your operating expenses with paying all your other bills paying everything else. What can you expect that person to bring in and get, you know, as far as an handle as far as a caseload so that hiring that person is not just a cost, but it actually is, brings value to your firm, and you're bringing in more money. So those are the big two things that we start with and look at the first one being, can you even afford it?Ron Bockstahler  5:32  Right? Are you familiar with it? Or I guess I know you're familiar with it. But let's talk to the third, third, third, if you're a large law firm, or accounting firm, I think they have real similar models, you're going to hire a an associate, I think even a partner you'd look at, okay, your salary is going to be a third overheads going to be a third, which is their benefits, office space, whatever it takes to employ them. And then a third is profits. Yep. So I think too many firms Don't think like that, or small firms Don't think like that. They just, Oh, I got a lot of work, I'm gonna go hire someone, but say I bring someone in for $100,000. Are they going to generate $300,000? in revenue?Ryan Kimler  6:07  Right? Yeah, that's, that's tough. And yeah, and I think a lot of attorneys, you know, don't look at that right away. And that's probably one of the first things that they should be looking at. And, you know, I, we have definitely come into firms where, you know, we put them into a profit first system, and unfortunately, you know, we kind of figure out through some analysis that they've hired too quickly. And then they have to go have the unfortunate conversation of letting someone go, I mean, that's tough. But like you said, you know, using the third, third, third rule, looking in advance, before you ever hire that person is really, you know, is doing your due diligence is really what should happen.Ron Bockstahler  6:47  But we deal with that on the staffing side, they go hire a paralegal, but they don't got enough work, you know, fulfill the third, third, third model, which means they're giving up their profits. Yeah, it's interesting. Let's talk a little bit about banks. I know we chatted offline just a little bit. You know, I know I've gone to banks, and I've gone to investors and other businesses, and it's, you got to have someone in your corner. Yeah. How do you help law firms either go secure financing, I guess, what's the question?Ryan Kimler  7:15  So the first thing is, is that any bank you go to, as far as going to get funding, you're going to have clean books, you're gonna have to have, you know, all of your expenses updated, and all of your, you know, up to date financial statements. So that's the first thing that CFOs can help with, as well, as you know, then once you have those financial statements, your CFO is going to know those financial statements and know what's going on, know how cash flows through your business. And having a CFO or a financial professional in your corner, when you go to a bank to go get funding is really, you know, giving you a leg up, it's a big advantage brings a lot of credibility to the table. And as being a financial person, they're going to be able to look at how cash flows through your business and kind of assess before you even get to a bank, how much risk is there? How much you know, how much risk tolerance is there? And then they can have that conversation at the bank of how much risk are they willing to take on? And also kind of advise you, as far as you know, maybe you don't have as much risk as what the bank thinks that you have? And where to go from there. You know, what, you know, is the interest rate, really reasonable for the amount of risk is there right, you kind of get your own second opinion from a person that you trust, and that's on your side, that's not sitting across the table from you.Ron Bockstahler  8:31  So you know, law firms, a service industry, so looking at historical data is I wouldn't say useless, but you're kind of on the assumption that you can repeat that, that level of business. So how is it beneficial for to have a law firm when they're going in to get maybe a line of credit established to have forecast based on historical revenues?Ryan Kimler  8:49  Yes, absolutely. And I would say not only having a forecast, but also a plan put together of, you know, let's say you project revenue growth, revenue increase, what's your plan to get there, you know, how many cases that how many average case value dollars, and that's something that a CFO can definitely put together for you that we do on a monthly basis with our clients is, you know, updating what their, what their targets are, what their projection is, and then, you know, keeping track of those numbers of how they're doing on a scoreboard so that they can see it and know where they're at. Rather, they're meeting what they want their target To be or not. It's almost likeRon Bockstahler  9:26  playing a game of baseball, you're looking at scorecard, you say, Hey, where am I? You know, it's coming into the seventh thing. You need to score some runs here.Ryan Kimler  9:32  Absolutely, absolutely. That's exactly what it's like. And it really gives the firm owner an idea of what's working in the business, what's not working, and rather not they're on pace and on track to meet their target. That's actually probably one of the biggest problems that we are challenges that we run into working with firms is that they don't have a scoreboard they don't know where they're at. They don't know if they're winning or losing the game. You know, they're just kind of running their firm. And if they don't make enough money at the end of the month, then they just start working harder and harder and harder. And they're firm without kind of digging in and finding out what's going on.Ron Bockstahler  10:10  You know why you're not making the money? Where's your dress? Yeah, that kind of leads me into, you know, what, many lawyers are frustrated by that financial aspect of running a law firm? How can you get help get them past the frustration, so they can focus on practicing law?Ryan Kimler  10:23  Yeah, absolutely. So I think a lot of it comes with, you know, taking the majority of the work off their plate. So, you know, we've we've developed a system that, you know, really what I did was I sat down and, you know, I've worked with a little over 200 law firms, I sat down looked at, okay, what's the operations as far as on the financial side, when it comes to accounting, and their CFO work, you know, what has to happen? In order for us to get clear reports and develop a scoreboard? And, you know, I developed? You know, what parts? Can the accountant take off? have lawyers play? What parts does the lawyer absolutely have to do? And then if they have an assistant, what parts can the assistant take, and, you know, through that process, you know, we really came down to an attorney needs to do their billing, um, you know, ideally through some sort of CRM, and an attorney needs to pay bills that they're paying personally, if they don't want an assistant, you know, handling it, or what or what have you, but eliminating a lot of the other tasks, and getting, you know, the attorney out of, you know, those other time sucks, if you will, can really help them, you know, focus back on practicing law. And then also, you know, at the end of the month, you know, simple one hour meeting with your accountant or CFO to give you an update and look at your scoreboard and know where you're at and give you a clear heading for the next month and the quarter coming up can really be efficient for the attorney and get them back into practicing law, when they have a clear direction and a clear path movingRon Bockstahler  11:57  forward. It just hearing you say it, thanks. I think about how much stress, you could take off an attorney's plate. Just on an average day, you know, you don't have to worry about this, you know where you're going now he's gonna focus on where you're gonna get your business from. Yeah, is much easier. Absolutely. I like that. What are you seeing as some of the biggest mistakes out there that's happening within law firms.Ryan Kimler  12:18  So one of the biggest one I one of the biggest ones, I think, from from a cash flow perspective, is not taking in trust funds. So you know, the, the big thing in law school is, you know, don't, don't screw up your trust account, right. And don't overdraw it, right. And you'll get audited, and all these all these scare tactics, all these things. And, you know, even if you're doing contingency cases, right, I know that the common thing and that contingency space is what we do it, you know, basically up front for free. And when we when we take, you know, 1/3 of the fee, or whatever your percentages, right, and they're not taking a trust fund up front. The big problem with that is, is that when you go to the courthouse, and you pay a filing fee, or you go do whatever expense the case needs, you're taking cash that you've earned, you know, into your business, probably from other cases, and you're paying it out. And it's not getting billed, sometimes for months, right, because you know, if your case lasts for months, and so it's cash that you've earned, that you could be using in your own firm, to pay your own expenses, rent, you know, employees, what have you, and instead, you're paying it out on a client case. Now granted, it gets booked as an asset, right? It's almost like, it's almost like you're giving your client a short term loan, it's almost like you're being a bank. And actually, you know, quick tip, I guess a good check on your accountant, if they know what they're doing or not, is they should have an account on your balance sheet in the asset section that says, like advanced client costs or client costs, that you expect it back, you by IRS guidelines, you cannot expense those items. So therefore, it's not writing down your taxable income. And that's really the reason for it is the IRS wants their money. You know, so just think so paying that cash out, you know, is really not helping you, it's not helping you write down your income, reduce taxes, you know, it really should be your clients cost. And even if it's a contingency case, and you can collect 500 bucks on a retainer, right, I mean, or whatever it is not having to pay that out of your firm and acting like a bank, keeps more cash in your bank in your firm. And is really a big mistake that I've commonly see, when I work with firms that the do contingency work or even not doing tend to see work and just don't collect enough trust funds.Ron Bockstahler  14:40  Real quick, and though so you take money out of your post tax income, and you pay a fee for a case that's a cut down on contingency. You can't charge interest on that to the client. Correct?Ryan Kimler  14:52  Correct. You cannot.Ron Bockstahler  14:53  So this is interesting. I was listening to someone Esquire bank was talking with Len Lerner who is a big Personal Injury Attorney out of Vegas. And so Glen for years was finding basically financing his own cases and realized how crazy it was because he was losing money. Whereas you know, he can, he works with Esquire bank, and he goes back and just give me they finance a case. And that's how he's paying those fees, and then is able to charge the client, those fees plus whatever interest, you know that he had to pay the bank?Ryan Kimler  15:25  Sure. So yeah, that's much better than paying it out yourself.Ron Bockstahler  15:29  That's a great point to bring up that I think so many attorneys are just missing. And they think, well, I got the cash, I'm just gonna do it, which is kind of probably what I would do it, you know, without being educated and understanding it. So this is a good reason that you need to be working with a CFO is going to save you money. And what happens when something goes wrong with the case, you just take a loss?Ryan Kimler  15:45  Yeah, absolutely. If if you if you take a contingency case, and let's say you have a bunch of filing fees, let's say it adds up to $500. And you do lose the case, and then at that point, you do not expect your client to pay you. At that point, what happens is, then that does become an expense for your law firm, which means it does write down your taxes. However, obviously, you are out the cash. And you know, it's already it's already flowed out of your firm.Ron Bockstahler  16:13  So now you just lost money taking the case. Yeah, you mentioned iolta accounts, let's talk about iolta accounts, and what are some of the do's and don'ts in managing an account?Ryan Kimler  16:22  Sure, absolutely. So one of the things that I've learned is, do not make sure that your credit card company is not taking credit card fees out of the trust account. If they are that something that has to be replaced and becomes a real headache. But a lot of merchant companies do like to do that. So that's, that's a pain. I like working with law pay, because they don't, they only take fees out of your operating account, never out of your trust account. Another another don't is there are several big cities that are on state borders. So like Kansas City, right? If you're in Kansas City, Missouri, you know, you might have worked in Kansas, you might have worked in Missouri, you do have to have if you're operating in both states, you do have to have two separate trust accounts. And you need to keep those funds separated. You know, Kansas City is not the only one, like Philadelphia would be another example. Right, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, keep those trust accounts separated and you cannot commingle funds. So that is those are, those are two of a couple of the most common mistakes. And then a third one, when I would say would be I don't, I don't like to see attorneys write checks out of their trust account. Because a lot of times they'll go to the courthouse, they'll write a check for a fee, it'll come out of their trust account. And then before they get back to the courthouse, they do or sorry, their office from the courthouse, they do go into a million other things, and then they forget that they wrote that check, it doesn't get into the ledger. And before you know it, you know, you've shorted a client ledger in your trust account, because you kept you know, taking fees on down the road. So I don't like to see attorneys write checks if they can avoid it. Or if you're going to write checks, really what I like to see is I like to see attorneys print checks from their office, you know, have your assistant do it or whatever, and take them to the courthouse with you. I know it's tough, because you don't always know the fees that you're gonna need. But that's what I like to see happen. And then another Another common mistake is run just running all revenue through the trust account. That is not that is absolutely not a best practice. But I know some attorneys, you know, they they just tell there's this anytime you're collecting a payment, you know, just run it through the trust account. Right? And then they go through and they sort out what's earned and what's not, or that is absolutely not a best practice. I do not like to see that. I mean, really what it comes down to is you just need to educate your assistant, or tell them, you know, this is trust or no, this is not trust. But that's a that's a common mistake that I see. And yeah, you're basically just you're bringing in revenue through the trust account, and then just moving it all the time over to the operating.Ron Bockstahler  18:59  It sounds like it's more of a it can be a real management headache. So what can you What can a law firm? What can an attorney do to reduce the time spent on trying to manage these accounts? Yeah, soRyan Kimler  19:09  clear operating procedures are very important. You know, a lot of times I like to see my attorneys collect a trust retainer at the beginning, that they feel is going to support the case one time, and then as they do their Billings, they can just transfer out of the trust account and transfer the Earned funds. And then they don't have to deal with additional payments. Another great management tool is just having some sort of CRM, right online that that everybody in your office can access at any given time and see the trust balances, right. You don't have to share all the revenues with with everybody in your office, but at least let them see trust balances so that they know who's whose ledger has money who's doesn't and you know, it saves them and it's all in one system so that you don't have attorneys that are keeping Separate Ledger's on paper in their own office, and it's not getting in all into one system that is, that is the biggest, most important thing that I've seen over the years is just get it all into one system that everybody can access and be in the know, and keep the system up to date. You know, if it's a daily entry, you have to make keep it up to date. And from there, things run pretty smoothly,Ron Bockstahler  20:24  you're getting systems you're recommending.Ryan Kimler  20:27  So I am a certified advisor with Clio. However, you know, that's not the only one. I mean, there's there are a lot of systems out there, I've worked with practice Panther as well. My case, case, Fox, there's you know, there's a lot of systems out there, they really all cover their basis. But I do like Clio quite a bit. It really has helped keep a lot of attorneys that we've worked with from overdrawn that trust account, because they can go and pull that ledger up really quickly on their own. Alright, well, let's standRon Bockstahler  20:58  the software topic, there are a couple tips that you can share that will improve profitability quickly.Ryan Kimler  21:04  Sure. So I did mention lawpay a little bit earlier, right? Everybody, everybody's in the game now of collecting credit card fees, right. And that's how we collect payments from a lot of our customers, I actually encourage the law firms that I work with to change the expectation right up front, and if you can collect at ages, right. So with law pay right now, their lowest credit card fee is 1.95%. plus an additional 20 cents per transaction versus a flat a CH is $2. So let's say you're taking in a $1,000 retainer run in the credit card route, you're paying at least 19, almost $20 a CH route $2. Right. And a lot of times, I think it's just the expectation that the assistant or someone at the front desk sets up front and says, Okay, well, we'll take your credit card to pay for this, which well, instead, you know, if you say we collect pay him a CH because a lot of times what I think their clients probably do is okay, here's my credit card, they put on the credit card, and then a month later their statement comes out and they get the bill and they take the money out of their bank account, and they go pay their credit card bill. So they had the money right in the in their bank account. And taking the a CH you know, keeps the fees down and, you know, $20 versus 218 dollars times all of your transactions, if you you know, as many as you can get transferred over, those savings can really add up. So that's one thing that I like to do. And actually, right now all of our clients that are farmer is on a CH,Ron Bockstahler  22:35  that's a great point. And we're seeing it anywhere, I donated money recently. And you know, they say you're paying the 3.95%, you know fee if you're paying a credit card. So it's just become a part of everywhere. So I don't think an attorney shouldn't be hesitant to say, we accept a car. But if we're going to accept credit card, you're going to charge the fee processor.Ryan Kimler  22:54  Absolutely, that's another way to do it. And I would encourage attorneys to check their fees, too, I know that there are some payment processes out there that are pretty expensive. Law pay is one of the cheapest that I found, you know, saving, let's just say 1% on all your credit cards, well, you know, figure out what you're figuring out what your credit card revenue was for last year, that can really that can really add up to some big money. Another another tip that I would get into as far as software's go. attorneys are a lot like accountants, we see this flashy new software that we think oh my gosh, this is the perfect fit into what I need. This is you know, this is this is going to be so great for my firm, you go and you sign up for it, you give them a credit card, you start a 14 day free trial, you know, sometimes you use the software for a month, sometimes you don't use the software at all. And then they just start charging your credit card and month after month after month, you get hit with it, you know, it's the common subscription model. It's very common in the marketplace nowadays. And so I like to that's one of the things that we do is we like to review your recurring charges once a quarter, you know, recently I sat down and did that with an attorney, we took 4045 minutes, this was the first time that I had done this with this client. And we ended up saving him for $189 a month of just subscriptions that he had signed up for over time, and just was not using. So that's almost six grand a year from 45 minutes of effort. So that's a that's a great exercise that I really like to run through. And if you if you want to do it the the easy kind of a pain in the butt way it'd be to just go get a new credit card and cancel your old one. And all these you're going to get all these notifications to your email box of Hey, your credit card failed your credit card failed, your credit card failed. And then you can go through your emails and look Do I really need this Do I really not. So that's another way to do that as well. It's kind of a pain in the butt. But that's another way to do that as well.Ron Bockstahler  24:54  Yeah, but you really can uncover what you're spending most of us. I don't I mean, I don't have any idea.Ryan Kimler  25:00  Yeah, that's really important. You know, it can really, really add up over time. And, you know, I think, you know, the 50 $500 or $6,000 that we saved over him over the next year, for 40 or 45 minutes of his time, I think is pretty well worth it.Ron Bockstahler  25:18  So that mean, that's quarter million dollars over a 40 year law firm career?Ryan Kimler  25:22  Yeah. Over over 40 minutes of work?Ron Bockstahler  25:25  Yeah. You know, look, you got it. I know, you put a lot of stuff out there, you do a lot of writing, you're published in quite a few areas, do you have anything that's coming up any events that people can tune into to hear more?Ryan Kimler  25:36  We do. So Thursday, October 14, we are going to be having a webinar around financial education. And I'm really excited about that webinar. I also have a really special giveaway for all the webinar attendees that are going to show up. So definitely look for that. Yeah. AndRon Bockstahler  25:57  what's uh, I got a couple more questions. But where can attorneys reach out? And where can they reach you online?Ryan Kimler  26:02  Sure, absolutely. So www dot financial clarity, LLC. com is my home web page, I have a contact page on there, you can book a call with me. And then also, I'm on LinkedIn as well, you can look up Ryan Kilmer on LinkedIn. And actually, Ron, you and I are connected. So anybody as long as you're connected with Ron, I should show up as a second contact or a second second degree connection, I guess is what they call it.Ron Bockstahler  26:27  You know, I'll tell listeners, I've listened I've read a lot of the content you've put out. It's been awesome. So I think you've really got some great stuff out there. You know what you're talking about, I think you can help a lot of the the solo partner practice law firms out there that they don't really want to deal with it. But it's one thing to make money which you can not spend it also, it's kind of a combination. That works. For some people, the PnL has a profit and profits and expenses, you got to pay attention to both? Yeah, absolutely. I get to get to the end product. So. So Ryan, real quick, is there anything else you want to add that you want to go over that I haven't asked questions on,Ryan Kimler  27:00  I think we've done a really good job of covering, you know, quite a bit of the the big topics and challenges that law firm owners deal with, I guess the, the biggest thing is, you know, I just I guess I would want your listeners to know that, you know, I think I said this a little bit in the beginning. But accounting and finance doesn't have to be the hard, scary, unknown part of your firm. You know, I know that it's not, it's not necessarily a lawyers expertise, just like my expertise is not practicing law, you know, but you get with the right guide, get with the right person at the right firm. And it can really change how you view that section of your business and really give you power and managing that part of your business. And it can bring real change to your law firm. And profitability and cash flow. Both are super, super important. You know, you can't operate a day in business without cash. So, so yeah, I guess that's, I guess that's the biggest thing that I'd want your listeners to know, it doesn't have to be hard. And there's there are professionals out there that specialize in working with law firms. And, you know, they're easier to find now in the zoom world that we live in. And, you know, there are people out there that can help.Ron Bockstahler  28:12  So it's coming from us a partial CFO serving over 200 law firms. And so from your perspective, what's one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see change?Ryan Kimler  28:23  I would say one thing that I'd like to see changed, I would say, our court system, like I would really love to see our court system change. You know, it's such a tough one, you know, it, you know, these jury trials, you know, made up of your friends and peers, right, for criminal trials. I mean, they just don't, they just don't always work. You know, so that's a problem. You know, I think the time that it takes to get through a case can be a problem. Our, our court system is definitely an imperfect system. I'm sure that you know, attorneys have even more frustration with it than I do. But, you know, it's, as far as the legal side goes, I mean, that's something that I would like to see change, you know, we've got to we've got to get together and figure out something better, as far as, you know, for the lawyers for the people. You know, I know that being a lawyer is high stress job, right? I mean, you're, you're trying to go and win cases not just for your clients, but also for you know, the families of the clients that you're working for, you got a lot of people that are depending on you. And I think you know, a lot of times you work really, really really hard in your law firm and self care is not always at the top of the list. You know, I can definitely relate when, when tax season rolls around and and our clients are demanding a lot from us, you know, self care and family time is not always at the top of the list. And that's something that I would that I want to see changed. You know, I want to help the law firms that we work with, make a strong profit and a strong cash flow and have the time that they want that for themselves, and for their families to live their life, that's something that, absolutely, you know, I'm out to check cause changing.Ron Bockstahler  30:10  While you're talking about one question came up that I'm sure most of you probably already know the answer, but I don't. So I'm gonna ask the question in pro bono work. Is there any kind of tax relief for pro bono work?Ryan Kimler  30:20  Yes. So if you if you build the case, as as you normally would, right? So these are like, you know, let's say your hourly rates $200 an hour, right? I'm just throwing out numbers, but you build a case you build the hours, right, that value, whatever it comes out to be, let's just say it's five grand right? can really be put on as donated time, right? When it comes to doing your tax return and things like that, that should be able to be expensed.Ron Bockstahler  30:50  Okay, so there's good benefit to doing some pro bono work. So if you can free up time by hiring a CFO, do some pro bono work and lower your tax burden. There you go. Awesome. Ryan. It was great having you on the on the show today. Let's repeat one more time best way for our listeners to contact you.Ryan Kimler  31:06  www dot financial clarity LLC comm or you can find me on LinkedIn. Ryan killer.Ron Bockstahler  31:13  Ryan, thanks for joining the show today. And thank you for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you like the show, please share it with other attorneys. And if you would like to be a guest on the 1958 lawyer shoot me a message at Ron V at a badass is calm. And let's talk until next time. Have a great weekend.Ryan Kimler  31:29  Thank you very much for having me today, Ron.Ron Bockstahler  31:31  Absolutely. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Gregg Garofalo is the Founding Partner at Garofalo Law Group, he has been practicing law for 20 years with a strong focus on probate matters and estate planning. Gregg talks about when it's right to do estate planning and what are some basic estate planning one should have outright. Gregg also talks about estate planning if you have a special needs child, how you can maximize their benefit to give them the best care they can receive from both your estate and the government. Lastly, he talks about how estate planning must be revisited at least annually to review how it can be adjusted to changes in the family's life, decisions, circumstances, or just life in general.  Timestamps:When is a good time to consider estate planning? (7:35)A guardianship estate for your college kids(12:35)Setting up a special needs trust (14:39)Estate planning and COVID, Cryptocurrency, and other changes(22:35) “It's never early to start planning - literally, we tell parents that when your kids turn 18, they should come in and do the basic estate plan...” - Gregg Garofalo Gregg Garofalo of Garofalo Law GroupWebsite: www.glgfirm.comTwitter: https://twitter.com/GreggGarofaloLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregg-garofalo/ Gregg Garofalo, Founding Partner at Garofalo Law GroupEstate PlanningGregg has been practicing law for the past 20 years with a strong focus on probate matters and estate planning. As a father of a daughter with special needs, he is passionate about educating families on how they can achieve their estate planning goals. As a result of Gregg's vast experience, character and devotion to clients, the families he serves can rest assured that he will do everything he can to meet all of their expectations. Gregg is frequently appointed by the Court to serve as a Guardian ad litem in Guardianship matters. He is also routinely appointed by the Court as a Special Administrator in complex probate matters.Gregg is an active member of the legal community, where he is serving or has served in several leadership roles within the Illinois Bar Association and the Chicago Bar Association. Gregg is a past Chair of the Chicago Bar Association's Probate Practice Committee, where he served two years as Chair. Gregg is also a past Chair of the Illinois State Bar Association's Young Lawyers Division, a member of the Trusts & Estates Council, and starting his third term as a member of the General Assembly after taking the mandatory one year off between terms.Gregg serves as a member of the Illinois State Bar Association's mentor program, and a speaker in the area of probate and trusts and estates.In addition to his passion for law, Gregg works with professional and civic organizations. Gregg has worked with the Children's Assistance Fund and the Illinois Bar Foundation chairing their annual holiday party, which has grossed over $150,000 during his ten-year involvement. Gregg is also a Past President of the Justinian Society of Lawyers, a past board member of the Italian American Political Coalition, and a board member of the Justinian Society Children's Endowment Fund. In addition, Gregg volunteers for the Central Illinois Sheltie Rescue. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregg-garofalo/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. Good to have you here. today. We got an outstanding guest, by the way, I'm your host, Ron inboxdollars. So my good friend, Attorney Greg Garofalo is joining us today Greg has been practicing law for more than 20 years helping families achieve their long range goals through proper estate planning Greg's a father to a daughter with special needs. So he has Insider's an insider's view and planning for a child's long term care. He also serves as a court appointed to guardianship matters in guardianship matters, and complex probate matters. God I've known Greg for 20 plus years, his activities in legal and charitable organizations are too many to mention, but he does serve in leadership roles with the Illinois Bar Association, the Chicago Bar Association, he's the chair of the CPAs, probate practice committee president or past president of the Justinian Society of lawyers. He's a board member with Justinian society, children's endowment fund, where he's helped raise a lot of money. And maybe most important of all, he's a volunteer with the central Illinois Sheltie rescue, Greg's had many, many shelties, since I've known as well kind of chat a little about that, Greg, welcome to the show.Gregg Garofalo  1:29  Oh, thanks, Brian. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. And Glad to be here. Thanks for the introduction. I just want to say a lot of those board member positions with ISBA and CBA. Those were a lot of those were in the past since the one board that I takes up most of my time is the board member of my family. And I say board member because I'm not the chair.Ron Bockstahler  1:48  Yeah, to your youngest turns four here coming up in October. Yeah, yeah. And I just started kindergarten. So yep. And become time consuming.Gregg Garofalo  1:57  They do. And Rebecca, Rebecca, my wife, our Rebecca systems, people that Rebecca is also aware and she practices. So it keeps us busy. It keeps me busy.Ron Bockstahler  2:10  So you want to talk about that raising children being and keeping your law practice going. I think it's amazing. So we're gonna get that in a minute. But let's kind of talk off a lot of people that maybe know you don't know that you started your career as an accountant, your CPA. So talk to us how you became how you kind of moved into being an attorney.Gregg Garofalo  2:25  So and I know this can be added around. So just for clarification, I have an accounting background accounting degree from Illinois Western University. I graduated in 1992. With the idea that I was going to be practicing as an accountant, I ended up getting the family business full time, which I've been working in ever since I was 13 years old, which was running a restaurant. And so I did that for four years before I went to law school and going to law school, I knew what I wanted to do going in, which is kind of what I wanted to do. Even as I was graduating from undergrad, I wanted to work with families, I wanted to work with small businesses. Part of that was because I came from a family that owns a small business because I felt like I can really help them and be a part of their overall team and their business. And so going into law school, I knew that I wanted to do estate planning with them with my background and tax planning for my background with taxes. I thought it was a really good fit. And I finished up my law school my JD and started working for Ernst and Young and their tax consulting department. And while working there, I went on to get my masters in tax from Chicago, Kent university or Chicago Kent College of Law. So I've got my JD in masters of tax from Kent as well and my undergrad in accounting, and I stayed with Ernst and Young for a couple years before I started to go to private practice.Ron Bockstahler  3:40  So let's think back What year did you start your practice are your own practiceGregg Garofalo  3:44  1999 2000 and graduated, I graduated my way of switching I graduated law school in 99. Got my master's degree in 2000. Worked for a firm for four years, and then I started my own practice in 2004.Ron Bockstahler  3:57  Okay, okay, so and then let's kind of fast forward a little bit. I think you were ahead of your time you moved to Georgia, you moved your family to Georgia while maintaining a law practice in Chicago. So let's talk about you know, how do you do law different what technology are you using? How do you make it happen? I guess that's the let's start there.Gregg Garofalo  4:14  Sure. So when my what my met my wife in Chicago, I met Rebecca in Chicago. She's a practicing attorney with the law school here when we got married and decided to start a family. Rebecca is from Northwest Georgia, just south of Chattanooga. So we decided to go back maybe close to her family. She's got a twin sister and two other sisters to help raise our family. And so Rebecca was working with the firm at that time as well. So we were faced with the challenge of how do we make this work, a practice that I've had in Chicago for over at that point over 12 years? How do we keep that practice and operated from Georgia and be successful? So yeah, when I started my practice, even before that, I tried to institute software and plant management software which I think helped a lot and keeping things all digital because We early on, we tried to keep our files all digital, scanning all the important documents and keeping them online. So when we decided to start to make this transition, I didn't have to have my files with me, I didn't have to be in the office because I could pull up our client management software. And at that point, probably about 70% of the documents were already scanned in the system. So if I needed something was all right there.Ron Bockstahler  5:19  No, I make funny a quite a bit. I call you a gate because you know, you're more of a techie than your attorney sometimes, or maybe both. I don't know. But how does someone that don't love technology like you do? How do they do it?Gregg Garofalo  5:30  In all honesty, if you're if you're technology adverse, all I can say is then you have to work with somebody, you have to work with a firm, you know, even like all like Amada, you'd have to work with a firm that has the experience that can guide and guide you through it, because there's just no avoiding it. And we've seen that now with COVID. I won't say his name, but you know, my next door neighbor here in my office suite who's very technology adverse and always has been as long as I've known him. And now with COVID pandemic, he said he doesn't want to come back to the office and work if he had a choice because he likes it and he likes having an ease that means he's had to step up with a lot of the technology and step into the 21st century if you would,Ron Bockstahler  6:08  I think he you know, an older generations, it's kind of funny, we we looked at and said, Man, if you're like over the age of 60, you're definitely going to be aching to get back to the office. But I find that that's not necessarily the case. It's the younger people that want to get back to the office, maybe for the social and the mentoring and the sex, the opportunity to grow their practice. But some of these, you know, seasoned attorneys that always love come to the opposite. Realize that, hey, it's pretty nice. I'm working, I get a lot done at home.Gregg Garofalo  6:31  Absolutely. I think that's completely true. My associate her she comes from a family of lawyers and her dad, his firm, they're not even back in the office at all. And her brother is the same way they're back in the office maybe two days a week and they don't know when they're going back. But you know, I can even say Yeah, I agree with Ron definitely the older generation is really starting to I say older generation 60. And older lawyers, I'm that's but the 60 year olds, yeah, they really do appreciate and are enjoying being able to work remotely. I'm finding even some of the younger workers are enjoying that as well, too. They want their day or two maybe in the office, but they they definitely like the freedom of being able to work from home as well. SoRon Bockstahler  7:11  I'm with them. I'm enjoying myself. Yeah, let's just jump into estate planning. Yeah, you know, I've seen a topic close to my heart. We've had Steve Sackler on recently talking about, you know, planning your future, what's the, you know, designing your life? What's it going to look like an estate planning kind of falls right into that, and most of us and most, especially attorneys don't just ignore their own state plans. So what's a good time? Let's start when do you start? What's the best time I've got, you know, six children? When do I start telling them? Hey, you need let's start focus on estate planning for you.Gregg Garofalo  7:39  Okay, so we You and I were talking about before, and I think we just posted something on our firm blog on our website. It's never too early to start planning. I mean, literally, we tell parents when your kids turn 18, they should come in and at least to the basic estate plan, and the basic estate planning is just powers of attorney for health care policies, Attorney for property, a basic will author HIPAA authorization, and actually each university a little bit different five, access educational records access. And, you know, apparently, how common is that really necessary. God forbid, we don't know what's coming around the corner, nobody knew what COVID was going to be like this hand with everything happening. Having that in place, if your child gets sick at school, or something happened to them, you're prepared because without these documents, these basic very easy documents, you can find yourself in probate court in front of a guardianship judge trying to make medical decisions for your son or daughter just because you didn't know I mean, he didn't think about it that that you were procrastination, you know,Ron Bockstahler  8:37  let me stop you real quick because I don't want to go over that what you just said records access. And I never thought about this until you'd mentioned is we're just sitting around talking recently. 18 all of a sudden my son turns 18 I can no longer access his records even if he's sitting in the hospital die. Yes,Gregg Garofalo  8:53  that is that is correct. So under Illinois law, you as a parent under the Illinois healthcare surrogate act can make medical decisions for him without a court or without a power of attorney but here's the here's the catch you can't get access to his record you can't say hey you know what, I want a copy of all these records but I can get a second opinion from a different hospital because you don't have that authority under the health care surrogate act you can only make medical decisions it's kind of a an odd rule that allows acts as law that never changed so you're absolutely correct once he turns 18 you can't access those records without his authorization without Of course giving you that authority.Ron Bockstahler  9:28  Wow. Now I know you practice in Illinois and you practicing in Georgia yetGregg Garofalo  9:32  I'm not but my wife is Rebecca is and Rebecca is doing estate planning and estate administration in Georgia as well too.Ron Bockstahler  9:39  So are you familiar with other states? Is that a pretty common clause or is that as it just all state by state and across the board like so many other thingsGregg Garofalo  9:45  the healthcare surrogate act it's it's there's something similar in every state. Okay,Ron Bockstahler  9:49  let's talk. Let's talk college kids. I know we talked about this too. Let's you know, what should we be thinking about for our kids or later in college, as far as setting up their state planningGregg Garofalo  9:58  their estate planning the kids estate plan Yeah, yeah, there's there's five basic things that we tell parents and I touched on them real quick. But other schools and again, five basic things were poverty for health care, so that you have the ability to make health care decisions for your child, because like you said, once they turn 18, you want it in writing exactly the power that you have without having to get a court involved, I HIPAA authorization, which the difference between them for those who don't know, between a HIPAA authorization and the power of attorney for health care, HIPAA, we've all signed those nowadays, with going to the doctor, it just means you have access to medical records, or you're giving somebody access to your medical records. And in most instances, the power of attorney for health care will cover that. But we recommend both just it's kind of the duel across across all T's and dotting the eyes, it's better to have both of those poverty for property. And this is one where I want my, my kids don't have anything, the only thing my kids have is what I give them. So why do we need to find a property that may be true, okay, but that poverty is also going to give you authority then to if something happens, your job, pay their credit cards, get access to credit card records, maybe cancel credit cards, just stop for whatever reason, it will give you the authority to execute tax returns for your child, because at the age of 18, they need to file their own tax returns. So that's how the property is something very important, even if they don't have any money, a last will and testament. And I know that seems very morbid, but it is very unfortunate if your child gets in an accident, at college, on their way to college, or even not at college. And it's a result of an accident where their estate inherits money or receives money, your child may want to say, well look, Mom, Dad, you're all set, I don't want to give it to you. I'd rather give it just to my siblings, or I'd rather give it to this charity that I'm so passionate about or so on, etc. So a basic will is something that's very important as well. And the last document that parents don't think about and is normally not part of a parent's estate plan certainly would be the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act authorization form. And each school has its own unique form. But in essence, that's giving you the authority to access your child's records, school records, because parents like well wait, I pay for the education, can I get access to the records? Not necessarily? No.Ron Bockstahler  12:01  So your simple question that someone like me thinks about is I'm sending my kids out to this college and we do the enrollment and and you know, pay tuition are these things the school brings up like, Hey, here's a checklist, make sure you're covered all these things.Gregg Garofalo  12:12  You know, a lot of times they will bring up and I'll use the acronym, the FERPA release for the records, since that is a unique form that each school has felt that may be something that they kind of shove in front of the college students, they are assigned this at registration, but the other documents generally know generally what's a familyRon Bockstahler  12:28  do? Do they call someone like you and say, Hey, I'm in a bind. My kids in the hospital is in college. I can't access his records. What do I do?Gregg Garofalo  12:35  Right? So we sit down and we go through and we have to open up a guardianship estate. And I've had that happen a couple of times during my career.Ron Bockstahler  12:42  I'm most curious what so give me a ballpark something like that happens. And we're talking about the college student knew what are we talking about money just open a guardians. I know I know, attorneys don't want to talk about that. But I just want to ballpark we talked about $5,000 thing a $20,000 thing.Gregg Garofalo  12:54  in Cook County, in the collar counties generally you're looking at just to open it probably about $5,000. And that's not all my that's not all the attorneys fees, that's filing fees, the attorneys fees, the court usually appoints a guardian ad litem that also has to be paid from the guardianship estate. So all these fees come into play that has to be paid. And from start to finish, it's usually about 5000. And people who hide that so expensive. Or if you're coming to me, because you need to make medical decisions for your child because they're in the hospital, that's just not a regular guardianship. Now it's a temporary guardianship based on an emergency basis. So that's even more fee. So all these fees add up very quickly, because you need to start making decisions very quickly. And so it's like anything in life, we tell our clients all the time, a guardianship usually is set up as a reaction to something happening. And with the powers of attorney and sitting down and educating your children and educating parents. That's that's you're being proactive, and you're planning ahead of time. So the cost versus that. I mean, the cost to do basic estate planning for a college student of a client, we give them a discounted rate for for if they're an existing clients, I mean, could be minimal, could be 10%. It could be 20%. It could be 1000 $2,000, which is extremely less than this issue. Plus no court, no court involvement, public, private. SoRon Bockstahler  14:13  this is the sounds like you know, an area of law that I never even thought about, you know, sending your kid off to college is enough. But now said I should make sure that we have all these forms these documents filled out they got an estate.Gregg Garofalo  14:22  Yeah, that's true. Absolutely. Like I said, there is a blog, a really quick blog that goes over the five different documents that we suggest for children. So and we are doing a little webinar because we have more and more parents that have called us this year. And I think part of that is has been fueled by COVID.Ron Bockstahler  14:39  Let's talk about children. Let's talk about it because you've got first hand experience with the serafina What special guests actions do you need to take to make sure that you know serafina is taken care of if something were to happen. God forbid something happens to you and Becca, so it'sGregg Garofalo  14:54  so serafina she is going to be six in December like we talked about. She has autism and so she He's not verbal at this time. And so the prognosis for autism, medical experts don't, they can't tell you. So for us, and what we try to tell parents in similar situations is the planning should start now. I mean, you don't know what's going to happen a year, five years, 10 years down the road. And it's always to me, again, getting back to, you need to do the planning now. So you're not reactive and scrambling down the road. And so what are some of the things we do? Well, we set up you know, consider setting up a special needs trust for for your child now, and you want it to be a special needs trust, a, what we call a third party special needs trust, which is one that we create, we find and we put our money in now. And a lot of parents who said, Well, you know, I get I'm not worried about it, when when the time comes and I pass away, I'll just make sure that she gets half of the assets and the other half, go to my other daughter, whatever the case may be, but an outright gift to your child like that could disinherit them and not just in here could disqualify them from potentially getting governmental assistance or qualifying for certain government programs and make them spend down all that money first. So example, parents pass to what both parents pass away, and the other child that has special needs may inherit $200,000. And it's a direct outright gift to the child, well, that child has spent all that money down for their own care before they can qualify for any kind of governmental benefits. And the alternative set up a special needs trust, and you put it all into a special needs trust. Now that child qualifies for all the governmental benefits and whatever they don't receive from the government or whatever programs don't provide for them, the money in a special needs trust can supplement. So it's taking that $200,000 and stretching it out, hopefully, for a longer period of time to provide better care and have more assets available for your child.Ron Bockstahler  16:41  So is that going to be the case if the child's already receiving some kind of government assistance?Gregg Garofalo  16:46  Absolutely. Because if they're receiving some kind of government benefits or assistance, and you pass away, and they receive this outright gift, those those programs are usually asset and income based. And so you'll you the child will lose those benefits until the money that they received is spent down in the benefits benefits picked back up again.Ron Bockstahler  17:02  So Greg, does that included the insurance policy? So say there's a $5 million insurance policy the child is going to be the beneficiary of was that would that actually count towards that to spend that money down to also? Absolutely, yeah. So how do you get around that?Gregg Garofalo  17:15  If it goes out right to the child, then absolutely, it would be a spend down that they have to spend so how do you get around it you've just set up a trust for the child. In most situations, parents will set up in their trust distribution to the children or not outright, it's held in trust for the children and so since the children never have access to it, then they will continue to qualify for governmental benefits.Ron Bockstahler  17:38  So I'm going to tell you you and I never really talked about this as far as special needs special needs trust pride before serafina so is this something you had to go out? And you know, it doesn't seem to me like the normal area that if you're in state planning that you're really focused on and maybe I'm wrong with that but did you have to go out when you know when you went surfing, you found out serafina had autism and do a little more research and then that make you even better at setting these things up than the average estate planning attorney.Gregg Garofalo  18:04  So in my career when I was the first firm that I started working at and and why needed to do estate planning, I was kind of thrown into a state administration and guardianships pretty quickly as a practicing attorney. And so I had had a great deal of experience before serafina was born with special needs trusts and the different types of special needs trusts and qualifying for governmental benefits and you know, how do we plan to make sure we can maximize benefits all around so when serafina was born, I had a pretty good base and background in that already so we were prepared as much as you could be prepared for as a as a parent in general but as a parent with a child with special needs we were somewhat prepared for how do we plan from an estate planning perspective?Ron Bockstahler  18:46  Yeah, I think I look at it as having someone with first hand knowledge and understanding makes it a little more maybe a little more empathetic under when talking to a parent is kind of going through similar situation so that to me is a plus right deal withGregg Garofalo  18:57  that it really is I've gotten I've got I've got a lot of clients who have come to me because they know our situation I'm I don't try to hide it. Surfing is a by opinion, a beautiful, wonderful young young girl who hopefully as a as much as possible normal life. And whatever normal is I had averse, but I don't hide what her special needs are. And so I think that openness resonates with a lot of families who are faced with the same thing because they know that I know what they're going to.Ron Bockstahler  19:25  Let's kind of flip back to you live in Georgia, you have a practice in Chicago, how often you're in Chicago,Gregg Garofalo  19:30  pre COVID. I was here every week. Post COVID or in the midst of COVID I come up maybe once a month not even maybe once every other month it just depends right now with everything still kind of in flux in the court system not completely open and everything being via zoom. There's really not much of a need to be here. Most clients enjoy zoom now you know where I thought we all thought there would be this adverse I don't want to deal with that they've really taken to it. So I think that this has worked out well for me Because it's more convenient for them, Hey, can you meet at six o'clock at night after the kids have had dinner? Sure. I don't think well, it's your house. We'll jump on zoom and I can take a call real quick and we can you know, go through stuff now.Ron Bockstahler  20:10  So but you're also court appointee and many guardianship matters. You do do some litigation, probate courts not back in person doing trials, Correct. Correct. So that could change things going forward. When they do assuming they'll come back. I mean,Gregg Garofalo  20:23  well, no, no, we're doing we're doing hearings, we're doing the hearing, guardianship and probate administration is that really generally not advert is not an adverse proceeding. So a lot of the hearings and stuff we do we can do online, but what we're not doing is we've got at least two jury trials that can't be scheduled yet. We'll contest and another one disinheritance contest, and we can't schedule it, because there's no juries that are available yet for probate matters. Okay,Ron Bockstahler  20:49  so that might change a little bit. So everyone's probably wondering you Okay, you live in Georgia, come Chicago, but how's your practice doing? Are you busy, like I hear so many are you kind of things tough.Gregg Garofalo  21:00  I mean, we're busier than we've ever been. We've, you know, as much as we were prepared for this in living down in Georgia. Now, for a little over seven years, we really started to move everything from server base to cloud base. So again, we were kind of prepared for this. It didn't matter where you live, the most far my employees took their laptops went home, and they could start working at home. But we've also tried to streamline things quite a bit from a staffing perspective as well. So we're busy, we're very busy, and the staff is very busy, but things are going things are going well.Ron Bockstahler  21:29  That's good to hear. You know, I'm a big proponent of changing the way laws practice in so many ways. And I you know, if anything, COVID is bad as bad, it's really accelerated some of the changes that were kind of slowly coming our way. And I think you were on the on the forefront seven years ago when you made the move.Gregg Garofalo  21:44  Yeah, absolutely. It definitely thrown a lot of, you know, attorneys into, okay, I got to figure out this cloud thing. What is it? You know, it's quiet, it's in the cloud, it's up in the sky, you know, can't remember that movie that that that was from but yeah, they've had to sit down and say, Okay, I don't have to understand that necessarily, but I definitely have to get on board with it, figure out how to use it.Ron Bockstahler  22:04  Absolutely. And I think that's we had a webinar, I think maybe under 46, the ABA guidance that came out saying, hey, you still need to understand technology, you know, you're still it's an ethical rule, you know, ties into 1.6 rule one point 60, you still got to be able to know what you're talking about and serve your clients, which means you have to understand the technology, or at least somebody in firm needs to understand it. You're still responsible, right at the end of the day. No last question. We always like to talk. First, I'll leave it to us. Anything else you want to add about probate or estate planning that we've missed on things you want to hit on?Gregg Garofalo  22:35  Well, you know, there's, there's a lot of new hot topics, you know, people like tell me all the time well, estate planning, Greg, it's the same, it's the same as it is today, as it was, you know, 1520 years ago, and you know, it seems it's going to be you know, five or 10 years. So I have because I often tell clients, once we do your estate plan, we should still sit down once a year and see what's changed. What's changed in your life was changes. And when they tell me Well, you know, nothing's really changed. Well, yeah, a lots changed. COVID is something that definitely changed. One thing you and I were talking about at the beginning, cryptocurrencies, cryptocurrencies are something that definitely has has changed. And I think that with clients having several of our clients investing in cryptocurrencies, it's something that we need to look at your safe plan and see how that plays into it.Ron Bockstahler  23:17  Yeah, that's just yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I'm thinking to myself, that is not a safe investment, as a guardian actually required to have, you know, maintain safe investments. So you fought Do you have to sell that cryptocurrency? If there all of a sudden you take overGregg Garofalo  23:29  that, you know, and that's exactly you pretty much hit the nail on the head on on, on the concerns that we have, as estate planners, and the challenges that trustees would have, generally speaking a the general rule and trust, it states that your trustee has to invest the funds pursuant to what we call the prudent investor rule, which just means it has to be reasonable, it can't be risky, etc, etc. We all know that cryptocurrencies are extremely volatile. So would your traditional trust actually tie the hands of the trustee to manage those assets? Or would they just be required to sell all the assets immediately, because they're too volatile, and they don't have the authority to manage those pursuant to the prudent investor rule. So it's, it's definitely something to look at. So that's interesting.Ron Bockstahler  24:12  And it actually gets me thinking that we recently had Steve Metro Metro financial on a webinar and talking to attorneys about how they can save more money for their retirement and shelter, their income from taxes. And one of the big things they brought up was a cash balance plan. Are you familiar with the cash balance plan? No, you can save up to 150 to $250,000 of your income each year as an attorney if you're a solo, and you know, you can if you have employees also, but also you got to contribute to their plan also, but it was really interesting to me that you can do that above and beyond a 401k plan, a five part of an IRA plan. So there's a there's definitely a way to be sheltering a lot of your money from taxes today, if you're an attorney making 500,000 a million dollars a year. You know, what just makes a lot of sense to look into that. Notice that when having Steve on the show was amazing and I'm thinking okay, if I'm doing that kind of savings, I better have a good estate plan in place right because that becomes substantial very quickly.Gregg Garofalo  25:04  It absolutely and you know to your point with having an investment advisor a lot of times if you have unique assets or you have an investment visor that you're very passionate about and you feel they do a great job a lot of times that's why we'll tell people then you we need to sit down to your safe plan and we need to work them into it in that maybe they'll be the investment advisor going forward even after you pass away because you feel very strong this person number one does a good job number two knows what you want you know you guys have usually with an investment advisor an attorney does your estate planning to have somewhat of an intimate relationship with because they know a lot about you and you know a lot about your finances your family makeup and things of that nature. So you know, Ron, you may say, this is the person I want to be my investment advisor for the trust for my kids after I passed away. So the only way to really ensure that is to make sure you have a good estate plan that dictates what your wishes are,Ron Bockstahler  25:57  it becomes more and more important so anyone listening the attorneys I know they're listening this show make sure you're getting out there talking to an estate planning attorney and getting the state in place going oh, you know, we tend not to do things for ourselves that's kind of the nature of who we are. Yeah, these things become very, very important. So definitely recommend get out there and talk to an estate planning attorney and you know, listen to Stephen Metro or guys in the financial industry to understand how you can save more money and you know, defer tax tax payments for a little bit out there. So Greg, what we just finished off of that last question, what's the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed?Gregg Garofalo  26:28  The one thing in the legal profession I can see change taking the business side of or just anything, believe it anythingRon Bockstahler  26:33  I'm generally I generally focus on the business side. But if you got something other than that, bring it on. Oh,Gregg Garofalo  26:37  I don't know there's there's several different different things I can tell you from an estate planning. And this is going to send a really big thing, but with the way that the world is going and we've all had to adapt to the changes of technology and and working remotely. I personally don't feel like certain states have passed the rules and the laws that would really make it easier to keep up with technology as well. Illinois, for example, the notary law in Illinois, I don't think is where it should be in could be as compared to other states that makes it very difficult to do remote signings and things of that nature. So I would like to see that our legislators try to keep up with the changing times to make our practice easier, which really makes our practice easier, which makes it easier for our clients.Ron Bockstahler  27:20  It's interesting, you bring that up, because in many areas of law, you can actually accept the digital signature, but in estate planning, you still need to hardcopy signature you still need witnesses. So you got to get together eventually with your client at some point physically.Gregg Garofalo  27:32  Yes, yes.Ron Bockstahler  27:33  I see what you said. All right. Well, Greg, great having you on your show. Really appreciate taking the time out and look forward to talk to you down the road. Best way to reach Greg. Greg, what is your email?Gregg Garofalo  27:41  My email is Garofalo at GLG firm COMMRon Bockstahler  27:45  And we will get that out there when we post The show also, so we'll make sure you got his contact information. Great guy to work with highly recommend Greg known for a long time. So thanks for joining us on the show today, Greg. Yeah. Thanks. great having you. And thanks for. Absolutely and thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. We'll be back in two weeks with Steve mesereau talking about you know, kind of we just brought up how you can save even more money with a cash balance plan and protect your income. Have a great day everyone.Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Megan Mathias is the Founder of Lopp Mathias Law, she represents business owners with challenges relating to corporate governance, employment issues, shareholder disputes, Family Law disputes and contract issues. Megan talks about how entrepreneurial knowledge and creating a united culture is important in building a good law firm. She talks about how her law firm started out as a virtual service and how that benefit both the clients and lawyers. Megan also talks about how she was able to manage her time in a season where she had to juggle a lot of responsibilities. They also talk a bit about political issues that need to be addressed and some of Megan's positions on issues as a candidate for Alderman. Timestamps:How it's like to start a legal office virtually (4:03)Educating yourself on entrepreneurship even as a lawyer (9:03)Time Management techniques - delegating tasks and investing on people (13:01)Political philosophy and issues that must be resolved (16:54) “It's not that I'm a superwoman although there are days I feel like I had to be a superwoman to get through that. But it's also about hiring the right people... outsourcing the things that you're not good at. I know what I'm great at. I know what I'm not great at. I'll still get it done but it may not be my hands on it.” - Megan Mathias Megan MathiasWebsite: https://www.loppmathiaslaw.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LoppMathiasLaw/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganmathias/ Megan Mathias, Founder of LOPP MATHIAS LAW Family LawBio: Megan Mathias is a fierce advocate and compassionate defender of the rights of entrepreneurs, women, children, and BIPOC. After 14 years lawyering for mid to large size law firms, becoming a Partner, and winning over $70 million in commercial and family law cases, Megan knew it was time for a change. Increasingly frustrated with the inefficiencies she saw in large law firms, and not happy with their prioritization of billable hours over-delivering value and results for her clients, Megan knew she could do much better.She decided to create her own firm, Lopp Mathias Law, driven by her values, her standards, and her integrity. To that end, Megan created an innovative and fast-growing firm of like-minded attorneys. She incorporated state of the art technology for document automation and assembly, better billing practices and alternative fee arrangements to reduce legal fees for her clients. Driven by efficiency and effectiveness, Megan also designed her firm to provide a wide array of specialized legal services through her unique Affiliate Network without the typical law firm overhead and passes those cost savings onto her clients. She is committed to being a loyal and long-term partner for her clients, as she guides them through challenging legal periods in their lives with skill and compassion.Megan has been recognized for her sophisticated representation in trade secret and other cases involving complex e-discovery issues and forensic analysis of electronically stored information. Megan co-chairs the Seventh Circuit Council on Data Privacy and Digital Information.Megan is dedicated to her community. She serves on the Boards of the YWCA Metropolitan Chicago, Coalition of Women's Initiatives in Law, FLASH (Force of Lawyers Against Sexual Harassment), and the Filament Theater.  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganmathias/Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:28  Hello and welcome to the show the 1958 lawyer where we talk about the changing landscape in the legal industry. Our guest today is Megan Mathias founding partner of Mathias law. She represents business owners with challenges relating to corporate governance, employment issues, shareholder disputes, Family Law disputes and contract issues. And you're gonna have a lot of fun listening to Megan, she's got a ton of energy and she's done just a million things and we really want to find out how she does it. Also, she's an advocate for women and black indigenous and people of color. She sits on many boards, including the YWCA Metropolitan of Chicago, lifespan building, elementary school is co chair of the steering committee, state courts, small case project teams for the Seventh Circuit, electronic mess that Megan you're gonna have, tell us about that. Okay. And now she's decided she's gonna run for the 45th Ward alderman in Chicago to make where she lives a better place. Megan, welcome to the show.Megan Mathias  1:20  Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.Ron Bockstahler  1:22  All right, let's get started with Where'd you come from? And how did you get to where you're at? Let's start from the beginning. Because you got to goMegan Mathias  1:28  from a small town in Michigan, very small Tom dirt road, even my mom still lives on the same dirt road. first generation college students sell through college at Michigan State and then came to Chicago in 2000, for law school, and obviously got through law school, and was practicing and bigger firms for a significant portion of my career. But I always one of the only females, I was one of the only females in litigation and a big firm, then I went to a smaller firm where I was one of the only female partners. And I thought, since I was, you know, higher up on this on the hierarchy, that I would have some more impact on some of the things I cared about. But it's still hard in law firms are like big institutions with their own culture and their own rules. And I'm a disrupter. So I didn't, it wasn't the same that I that I how I wanted to practice. So even the marketing people would come to me and say, we're having trouble kind of getting your message with the rest of the firm. So I compensated people differently. I ran my teams differently. I wanted to use different technology. So anyway, in 2018, I started my own practice.Ron Bockstahler  2:33  Let's talk about your own practice. Because in 2020, your you won an award from legal tech, what did you win? And why did you win it? And what are you doing differently?Megan Mathias  2:40  It's an American technology award, because I've been working on legal tech for quite some time, as I sat on the steering committee for the Seventh Circuit used to be called pilot program for ediscovery. And it is the group that helps form the rules that were adopted by most jurisdictions around the country and how you handle electronic information. So in any litigation, it's important. So of course, now photos, and everything has metadata attached to it, how you manage that in litigation is obviously really important. So that was the starting of getting involved in technology as it relates to the legal field, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, whenever that was, and then it's now like I said, when I started my own firm, we were already paperless, I started it with a completely different model business model, I compensate the lawyers differently. Like the whole, everything I do is different. And I think better and faster and more efficient and allows me to get flexibility to my clients. And you know, there were some bumps along the way, you know, I learned a lesson here or there as to you know, why the business model what the downside of some of these models are, I understand it, but I think it's worth the risk and clients know now. I mean, they know they're looking for flexibility, even big clients, they want to know that you're monitoring and you have metrics around some of your productivity and how you bill and that kind of thing. So it's beenRon Bockstahler  3:58  okay, so give me some let's get into the meat so it's different. What exactly are you doing different?Megan Mathias  4:03  So pre COVID we started in 2018. I started a paperless office, everything was virtual anyway, so my lawyers can work from anywhere. One of my struggles and bigger firms is that you have service partners, all of whom I like so I'm not talking trash about my old partners, but their job is to service the work that we the business developers bring in so there's some inefficiency there's they're pulling significant salaries that obviously impact your overhead but their job is not to go get business that was and so they're waiting there they like a specialist I was give this example is like a 409 a it's a complex tax issue that I know nothing about when to have a 409 expert you have you know person pulling a major salary and you're just have to go get the business to have this person working on it, or you I have contracts with even big firms that have specialists on the issues that I need for my clients and I can still operate full service but I don't have a couple million dollars in overhead sitting and waiting for me to bring them in. So I have some staff lawyers and but I use virtual assistants. And this was all pre COVID, virtual assistants, I use contractors, but I have contracts with them for quality standards and responsiveness and stuff like that. And then as it relates to more more complex and sophisticated issues, I have vendors, which are largely law firms and and that will handle those kind of issues. So it's a completely different business model.Ron Bockstahler  5:24  So when we talk about the business concept, you're using the practice management software, you're up in the cloud. So technology is kind of driving your firm, not the old school, we need 25 people sitting on staff to, you know, type a letter type thing, right, exactly. Right. Okay. Excellent. And that's working out? Well,Megan Mathias  5:39  it's working out well, in the bigger, more sophisticated clients really appreciate it. And they don't expect it because we're technically on paper, a small firm, but we're small but mighty, because we have, like I said, we have the full serve, we can cover any almost anything except for intellectual property speeds, and but in a sophisticated way, with the right kind of staff and a very thoughtful process. And as it relates to them, and also how we communicate with them. We have autobill technology, so it bills by the minute, so you're not getting over billed on accident with lawyers, like I think I spent 15 minutes on that kind of thing. We also have flexible billing arrangements. So because I have all these metrics, and I monitor them, I can offer flex that other firms can't because I use templating software, I can take a deal in for somebody raising, you know, capital round, and usually it's billable, but I can flat rate it, you know, 25 $40,000, and big firms are doing it an upwards of 100. And we're doing the same thing, but I use templating technology. And so it reduces my time and the cost and the clients love it. SoRon Bockstahler  6:44  So before you started your own firm, I think you might have did a little interview of how do I pivot to a corporate role? Right, and you will recall this. Yeah. And so you were thinking, I think at the time, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but you wanted to be in the C suite and understand, you know, let's run a business. Obviously, you started your own firm, but you know, in what you just said to me, kind of maybe this is why we like each other so much, or at least I like you I don't know if you like me or not yet, as you know, I've run a large corporation, large corporation, and then my company now not midsize firm. And I believe in outsourcing anything you are not an expert at and doesn't matter. And I think law firms, if they would understand that, they'd be so much more successful, it's too many, I'm going to say I gotta go hire an employment lawyer, I'm gonna pay him, you know, start them at 80,000 a year, because I got a client that wants to do an employment instead of going finding a firm that's an expert at it and outsourcing it to them. It sounds like that's what you're doing. So basically, I think you've got that corporate experience by starting your own firmMegan Mathias  7:33  I did, and what we we call it now I didn't know how to put a word on what I do. So what clients will say to me is, wow, you're really holding my hand through this, taking a company. And sometimes when they're doing a capital around or an acquisition, it completely changes how things operate. If you have a transactional relationship with your lawyer, we're just doing the task and kind of moving on, you're not a fantastic lawyer, you're getting the job done. Okay? I say this a lot. It's not rocket science, some of it, but when you're in it with your client, so we're legal plus is what we call it, we're they need more than just your legal mind, they need you helping, I can redo your policy handbook and help you with these than that. But sometimes you need someone helping you come up with the processes within your company to make it more efficient to grow to go after a certain market to you know, because I have that I'm kind of entrepreneurial mind and mentality. It's like legal plus some say like a GC General Counsel plus your CEO, because you're helping from the C suite level, talk about strategy, all kinds of things that just a regular outside counsel doesn't provide. So we've started to put a word on it, because that's what people really need. And then COVID, they have to slash so much. A lot of our clients were, you know, just trying to survive, they need you to get in the dirt with them and really dig in and figure out how to survive what's happening. And that was when we realized, and that is our superpower here. So that's really one of our main offerings.Ron Bockstahler  8:55  So I read somewhere maybe on track like you, did you do a talk on cash flow, or teaching people or one of your Tell us about that? Because I don't think to me attorneys really understandMegan Mathias  9:03  that, right? They don't. And I remember as a young lawyer being like, I need to go get my MBA. There's definitely stuff here. I don't I need to know, I didn't go get my MBA, but IRon Bockstahler  9:12  learned you got it non job experience.Megan Mathias  9:15  Absolutely. They don't teach you anything like that in law school. And I have a business degree, but it was in marketing. So it wasn't it wasn't heavily focused on the financial. So you know, I represent a lot of small business owners too, especially when I went on my own. I started representing women and minority owned businesses and as the as its market because it's bigger firms. They trickle in, but I wanted to focus on it. And some everybody is when you're a new entrepreneur, for sure, you need help managing those kind of things. You don't you're not even aware that that's a thing and how do you get it? There's lots of ways to get through it and COVID that's on steroids. How do you manage your cash flow, I don't even know if I'm going to have any cash. So anyway, it's a skill that I have developed and learned that clients need it. They need you in the trenches with them and that includes managing cash flow. includes your people and other alternatives for or for that. So what we tell people even right now we work with people who will acquire other companies, and they may not want the legal department. So one thing we're really good at is this interim role. So they may for 1824 months not have a general counsel, and they might have five law firms, and I'm spending way too much money, it's inefficient, but they need a general counsel. So we stand up their legal department for 18 months, helping them with processes, bringing in the right technology people, we have relationships with vendors, and we can fill fill your legal department overnight if we needed to, but we can stand that up for you for 18 months while you get the right GC and you get the right, you know, structures and infrastructure in place. So that's been really great market for us.Ron Bockstahler  10:42  That's awesome. I mean, it's great to hear that there's for innovation that's going on, because you don't hear that a lot in the legal industry, although COVID accelerating things.Megan Mathias  10:49  Yeah, that sort of forced the hand. And that separated the cream from the crap as they say, I guess so. You know, we were doing trials right away on zoom, I did a trial, an international trial on zoom with the beginning of COVID. Like, like nothing. Our opponent was struggling with the process. So you know, I tell people, sometimes you went on process, sometimes you went on merit, and sometimes apparently you win if you're better than, oh, lead outs,Ron Bockstahler  11:14  don't let's kind of get into you've had some some challenges to say the least. You know, if you don't mind, I'd like for you to talk about some of the I mean, you've really got let's talk about even on your personal side, if you don't mind, because I want people understand this hasn't been easy. And there's a lot going on here. Yeah, there'sMegan Mathias  11:29  a lot I mean, come coming from a family where nobody wants to college. And, you know, I tell this example to people I went to law school and was like, why don't why don't people have business cards, I never really seen people using business cards until law school. I'm out of college with two college degrees. And I was confused, like, you know, because I don't have a parent to go say, Oh, this is how you network. You know, I learned I had to learn everything on the job. So when I hire I hire for grit because I've been through things I've been divorced, I filed for bankruptcy after my divorce, I got a DUI at one point in my life, it obliterated my self confidence It took years to get and I was so worried about, you know, my family, the whole thing, all of those things, looking back, you can learn from you can take that energy and use it for good. Or you can, you know, dig yourself a hole and stay in it for a while which you know, kind of whatever we feel like everybody's doing right now with COVID. But you know, I've learned to take those experiences and those challenges and find a way to find the silver lining, learn from those mistakes and grow. And so now when I hire lawyers, I look for grit, I don't look for mistakes, necessarily, but you learn from those life experiences. And if you can use it the right way. And you really do learn from it, instead of just put it under the rug, it really does bring you a different kind of mentality to the practice of law because now you can empathize with what your clients are going through instead of just like why are they making all these dumb mistakes? Now you're like, Oh, well, because we all do and how do we help them get out of it?Ron Bockstahler  12:57  Can you jump into time management for us because you got so many things going on? Yeah, that'sMegan Mathias  13:01  the thing. I have three kids, I have my law practice. I when my son My partner got sick a few years back with cancer, he was very sick for multiple years and passed away in 2019. In the middle of that I realized I needed to be closer to home. So I that's part of when I started my law firm in my neighborhood and the 45th word and, and managing my time I say to people now I don't feel busy. I felt really busy when I was taking care of my partner dying from cancer while having a three year old and a four year old and teenager and also trying to keep my law firm afloat and come up with all these new policies. I was also an elected at the time and I still am an elected local school council member for local elementary school in my neighborhood. I managed that that was time management right? You know, now I feel like I actually do feel I have the time for everything happening and it means you have to have the right team around you. It's not that I'm a superwoman although there are days I feel like oh, I had to be a superwoman to get through that. But it's also about hiring the right people like you talk about outsourcing the things that you're not good at. I know what I'm great at. I know what I'm not great at. I'll still get it done. But it might not be my hands on it. Right? So but then that's what I'm learning having the right team around you is its killer. It's the it's the way to get through everything. You might have a deal we do deals right transactions for clients, they might buy a company and want to do it in 60 days. That's, that's an undertaking, right? I have to have the right team and infrastructure for me to be able to get the client's needs done. And that applies across the board, including the kids, I became a single parent in 2019. It's a whole nother ballgame. You can't go to Walgreens because you can't get to get everybody in the car and go get it you know, some toilet paper. So you know, I've got some infrastructure around that now. And that applies professionally too. You just have to have the right team you have to invest in your team, make sure they're happy part of my law firm law firm culture is also completely different. We do team building events before COVID we were doing like escape rooms and which takes your hierarchy. And it's gone, because the people getting us out of the escape room. But believe me, it wasn't me. It's like the clerks, we got out of one of them because of a clerk, you know, a quiet clerk that was so sweet. never said a word. If he was like, backup, I got the sandal. Like, you know what, that's a nice way for you people to feel your humanity. And your team works, I think harder and more productive during the time that they're supposed to if they feel respected and taken care of. And so we care a lot about that around here.Ron Bockstahler  15:31  I will forget the name of the attorney. I was listening to his podcast or a podcast. It wasn't his but he's a big time personal injury attorney around the country out of Vegas, and you see his billboards everywhere. tu tu tu tu tu tu tu is his phone number. Anyway, turns out he was an Amata client when he first moved into Chicago, and I forgotten about that. But I listened to him. And I thought, you know, his father, he grew up went to prison when he was when he was five years old. And you just had a challenging life and kind of has the same the way you're talking to have grit. I want people that can just do work hard and figure it out. Right? Not gonna be the smartest person, right? And like you're saying, Go get people around you that are great. And don't act like you know, more than they do. Right? Yeah, let them do their thing. It's harderMegan Mathias  16:09  than it sounds. But it is, you know, that's its own skill. And sometimes you make mistakes there too. But it really does. You know, if you invest in people, it matters how they feel my I remember, as a young lawyer being told you're too nice to the staff. What are you talking about? My mom works at the fruit market. Okay, I don't treat people that, you know, like, like that we are salt of the earth people. And now I know, because in some places, the lawyers are the lawyers and the staff isn't staff. I'm not like that. I still have Thanksgiving every year with a woman that was my secretary for eight years. We are best buds is you know, it's not hierarchical like that. So I think it matters how you treat people. And that applies to my my company and my clients and the political world, especially where I liveRon Bockstahler  16:54  with politics. Let's talk politics, you've taken on a huge challenge. Now you're going to run for automated the 45th. Ward. Tell us about that. Let's talk a little bit about your platform. Yeah,Megan Mathias  17:03  like a Simon elected already. And then in the community, I do a lot of community work, I deliver food for housing and home and food insecurity families on the weekends, and we've been doing a lot of work for for many years, and the community, they've been asking me to get involved for quite some time. But I told you earlier, I had to take care of my family. Obviously, in the interim, we we've had some leadership changes that have been difficult for my community. So I stepped up in response to community, you know, essentially begging and like we need someone to get in there and, and essentially respect people's opinions. So just what I learned with my law firm over the past, whatever, 18 years, this applies to politics to we're never going to all agree on everything, right. And if you're the type of person that's not going to respect someone else's opinion, you're going to create divisiveness. We already have divisiveness. So I'm going way overboard, trying to learn and listen to all sides of every issue is not just two sides. It's anything and trying to bring that kind of leadership. So the 45th word. So let'sRon Bockstahler  18:07  I mean, everyone has skeletons in the closet, at least in my history. I know I do. So what's the worst thing that your opponent's gonna find out about you and getting put out there? Let's put it out right now?Megan Mathias  18:16  Well, we, I've talked about 100 podcasts, there's nothing about thinking that you can find that I haven't talked about that justice podcast, but you know, interviews and, you know, articles and whatever, over this span of time because I I talk about grit in terms of how I started my company, because of what I went through. Right. So I've already talked about it today, you know, having to file bankruptcy as a young person that was just getting divorced, and it was $15,000 with spout felt like a mountain at that age. I look back I'm like, wow, you know, that was probably, you know, that was hard. It was embarrassing. that follows you for a decade. So those kind of things I'm sure going to come up but but I'm a real authentic person. So I'm not worried about that. I'm sure maybe some strategists are, but I think it is what it is right. And you make mistakes, and you can either own it or you can hide from it. So I own mine. I learned from them. And and i'm i've learned not to put myself in situations like that to repeat them.Ron Bockstahler  19:12  So I've heard you said just one on one you and I've talked and I know you got some vision you got you got things you want to do. Let's talk about what your vision is for the 45th ward. I wouldMegan Mathias  19:20  love to see the all Germans office focus on our schools as sitting on that policy. You know, I have learned first of all how complex and hard it is to run a public school. I don't run it I just participate in and it's it's hard. I helped the school forum, the tech committee, thank goodness about a year before COVID because I love tech. Obviously I want to bring innovation to the Ottomans office too. But that that's a real issue, especially now. I mean, the schools are the foundation of a neighborhood what the schools are going for going through because of COVID. It's transformational, how they, how they handle it and how our kids are going to come out of it and I have one at every level. I have a kindergartener, a second grader and a junior in high school. So how the schools are able to navigate, it's gonna matter how my kids come out of this with how much therapy they need, right? I mean, it really does matter. And we're not focusing a lot on that. And I think it would be really important. But another issue that is really important in my word is both development and the lack of investment in the in the community. So there's the main thoroughfare fare going through, the word is dead. There's a lot of vacancy, but no one's working on it. When you ask my opponent, what's the vision to get these small businesses, you know, supported and people back out? You know, when invigorator Award, he won't answer that question. And I'm here to say I have a big plan. As you can see, I think big, maybe too big, I'm sure someone will say that's ridiculous. Let's tone it down. But you've got to come in with a plan and advocate and work hard and think about it and actually wait for something to land on your desk. So that's what I want to do was put together a vision for the ward, listen to community voice work, really, that's going to be hard. I'm not saying just walk around, and everyone agrees with me. So I know that's a hard process. But if you start that now, I'm not in the office yet. I won't be the older person until February 2023. But I'm starting now with a plan and how do you listen? How what are the models that have been successful around the country for listening to community voice? How do you put that together? who's involved? What's that look like? So I think the community I know the community, they're hungry for it. They want to be listened to and respected. Talk toRon Bockstahler  21:27  me a little bit about COVID-19 vaccinations, masking, I don't even know what if the school policies you have to mass correct. That's a state policy, right?Megan Mathias  21:34  Yeah. Yep. CPS are going to be in person and everybody mass. So I mean, I don't know what the Delta bear if there's going to be some kind of change in that. But there's I also think our leadership could have been better there too, especially in my neighborhood, I was as a regular private citizen organizing and transporting people to their COVID vaccinations, you know, it was a little bit like cricket sometimes, like, why can't we get why isn't my opponent before he was my opponent helping me? Why am I doing this? You know, with my with friends, and volunteers and neighbors and other electeds helping me find people that needed a vaccine, how do you get someone to coordinate to get both make their appointment, because that's the thing for people who don't aren't great at computers, half of the appointment systems were virtual. So you'd have to go and help them make the appointment and then arrange the transportation to go pick them up, wait for them. And some people were waiting hours at a time to get their appointment, get him back home, and then do it again for the second one. So that was a lot of work that that was I think the government should have been doing that. But I was doing that.Ron Bockstahler  22:34  Let's talk about being an alderman because you're 50 alderman in Chicago, there are so you remember back in the day when Daly was there. And if he didn't have a 50 to zero vote on what's something he put out in front? Like he might have had a 49 to one I was like, Whoa, someone disagreed? That's changed a little bit, because we actually see that there's a little independent thinking going on. Can you talk to a little bit about you know how, because you're obviously not going to be a rubber stamp, not the wallflower. Yeah, you're not gonna be the wallflower. But how are you going to handle that? How you can handle being, you know, one of 50 working with the mayor?Megan Mathias  23:02  Yeah, it's a tough job, but I'm good at collaborating. So what I say to people is they say, oh, you're this tough lawyer. You're good at like the fight. I am good at the fight. We're great at the fight, actually. But you resolve things 99% of the time, it needs to be resolved. It's not the case you take to trial even when you're a great lawyer because I love to take stuff to trial. I love trial work. I love being in the courtroom. It's where like all it's like, what my passion is really it's illegal. So but that's not always the best result for anybody for the clients, especially. So how do you take a complex issue when people are on fire? They're, you know, emotionally charged. They've been going at it, they're spending too much money litigating. They're just in a nasty place. How do you take that and find a solution? That's what I do every day. And and City Council's a little bit like that there are people complain that that the mayor is able to sort of manhandle the council, because she's good at the rules, but she's good at the rules. And I say to people, then learn the rules, and that you know, straight I don't walk in accordance hope someone doesn't object to my piece of evidence I've studied for weeks, I know what you're gonna object, I know how I'm gonna answer. I don't know how I'm gonna win, because I brought the case law. So that's sort of how you have to approach the job. And I know that's not everybody's thing. But I guess that's my mentality is how you both collaborate, but also anticipate and politic and think a little bit ahead how we're going to get get past an objection or emotion of the table. Something, you know, think a little bit about that and work with your colleagues on it. So I think that's a really important piece. So IRon Bockstahler  24:29  asked you all I said, are you up to this challenge? And you said I was born for this?Megan Mathias  24:34  Yeah, I do feel like I've been preparing, sharpening the skills my whole career for this job. Because it is it is complex. It is both constituent services, where I think there needs to be more technology, managing the Office of the aldermen and how calls come in and what's being done about them and looking at those metrics, but it also is the legislative portion of our job, and how you're Want to approach what the community needs, how you're going to listen to the community voice, there's menu money that every alderman gets every year. And you get to decide what to use that and some people listen to the community and others just decide. So there's hybrid models that you can both listen to the community. And but yet you make the decision, I think it's a better way to approach it. Because it's not just me, I'm, I'm merely a reflection of the community. I'm supposed to be your representative, whether you voted for me or not, which is apparently an issue in my work, where if you didn't vote for someone, you may not get the attention, or you're thinking your whole dress bottle. I don't want to be like that. You know what I'm trying to say it again,Ron Bockstahler  25:36  you can't get bottles fixed, or you can't get your garbage taken, taken out? Oh, yeah.Megan Mathias  25:39  Yeah, I could, yeah, I want it to be I'm listening. And I'm, you know, we're not going to hold grudges, we're going to move forward, we're going to find a way. And if you need assistance with your pothole, or or, you know, trimming a tree, or whatever's happening in your house, it's not going to matter. Well, when I'm the older person who you voted for,Ron Bockstahler  25:57  if we talk about politics on a little bit bigger picture and keep and kind of focused on technology, you know, how can we use technology to get more people to the polls?Megan Mathias  26:05  Yeah, I would say it's not just technology, it's also innovative thinking. So there went hand in hand. So some of what I do, it's not even the technology. It's the way we think about things. So I think that the same way, we're doing our mark kickoff on our campaign on national voter registration day, because I think voter registration should be everywhere. It should be, you know, you go to the store, and there's the voter registration reminder. And you know, because more people involved is better, there's 55,000 people will right now or redistricting, but right now, there's 55,000 people in the ward for the new numbers come out, and only 14,800 vote for the older person. So you really should, from a metric standpoint, have more people involved. So you know, you're representing what the community really wants, right. So that includes, that's just the basics of voting. So there's lots of new technology out, there's lots of energy around voter registration. And I think it's really important to keep that going.Ron Bockstahler  27:02  change gears a little bit, let's talk about a couple of organizations where you sit on the board. And I think cuz you got a couple of really good interesting ones that you work with. And if you got one you want to talk about Otherwise, I'll just I satMegan Mathias  27:12  on the board of the YWCA of Metropolitan Chicago for many years, I recently resigned because they have a lot of business with Chicago. And I didn't want that to be an issue in my race. So I actually just stepped off the board. But their mission was empowering women and eliminating racism, both things I care deeply about. And they have so many wonderful people, they serve more than 200,000 families in the in the Chicagoland area. They're a really great organization that I sat, I literally cried when I resigned because it's really a passion of mine. I also sit on the board of lifespan, which is an organization that is long standing, and it's been fighting domestic violence and human trafficking for a very long time. I even help with bigger pieces, because those trying to trials are tough, and you don't want to miss miss a beat. And sometimes you have big scary opponents. Right? So you need the team. And so I've been doing that work for a long time. And I care passionately about that there is no excuse for domestic violence.Ron Bockstahler  28:10  And are you still working with the coalition of women's initiatives in law? Yeah, I'veMegan Mathias  28:14  been a member for probably more than a decade at this point. And I sought them out because like I said earlier, I was always the only female in my area where I was working. And that was many law firm, different law firms, I still had that challenge. And I always felt like I needed some support. So I went to the coalition, like I said more than 10 years ago, and it's about creating policies to help women feel empowered, and really break through the glass ceiling. And that group was an is still is just really amazing. So when I went on my own, and then my partner was sick. And I actually was like, wow, I need the village today. So I had the village because I've been working with people for so long that it finally finally all came back. And that's how I felt about the groups. I've been in the my community. My community stepped up for me when we needed it when my kids needed it when my partner was sick, and I'm trying to get the hospice and we can't get dinner and someone needs to bring the kids somewhere, my community stepped up for me. So I've learned that these decades of work in the community giving back it comes full circle when you need it.Ron Bockstahler  29:20  That's awesome. That's great to hear. I'm glad that they were there for you. Let's kind of take it back. And we're kind of running out of time. So I will give you a minute to talk about any last things you want to communicate. But before we get to that I want to ask one question is what's the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed? Me instabilityMegan Mathias  29:36  is an issue. There's so many things it's but instability is very, it's very hard when it's hard to deal with because, well, when I was a young lawyer, I wanted to I had my natural tendency, my personality, as you can tell is I'm not going to step down to a belief but that's not how you handle that in a courtroom. Obviously, I say this to people a lot. I often have to listen to somebody lying to the judge or You know, misrepresenting what's happening here without, you know, launching in the woods, you know, a bunch of swear words when you're a young lawyer and someone's treating you a certain way, and they're treating you a certain way because you're female, and they think they can intimidate you or whatever. So it's it's instability, but also other issues, I helped form a group called flash, which is force of lawyers against sexual harassment, there's been some, there's a lot of that in the industry, which doesn't get talked about. So I'm in a number of groups that are fighting that issue and, and working really hard, hard on it. So that's much worse than different than instability. But it's the truth how you're treated as a lawyer. That sounds like a first world problem, but it really is horrible to go through it. I know many, many of my friends that have gone through it, and how do you handle it in the moment? You know, are you dealing with a partner who has authority over you? Are you going to lose your job? It's going to look bad? Do you sue someone I mean, it's there's a lot that can just derail your whole career because you were sexually harassed. And then the day to day incivility just generally, is the thing I think the legal industry really needs to take on how women are treated specifically in a courtroom, you know, opposing counsels, undermining you with things like okay, sweetheart, and the way I addressed that is like, okay, you're gonna eat those words later. And across cleaning it, but but there is a real serious problem that we have. And now we're starting to talk about it more. My the flash group has been really, really great at articles and getting male allies in and we're having, we're asking people in firms to sign pledges to deal with when things come up, because it's serious, and it needs to be addressed right away, because it can derail the careers of all these women.Ron Bockstahler  31:37  So are you seeing an improvement? Is there are we getting better?Megan Mathias  31:40  I think I see a lot of awareness raising, I do think I don't know if it's getting better, because everybody doesn't report but we hear a lot about it, because we're allowed about that. So and we have mentors assigned people to help them navigate things. I do think that having more people aware that this is going on, and is a really important development. So I always try to stay positive and optimistic. And I do think we're making progress there.Ron Bockstahler  32:05  So I lied. That was supposed to be my last question. But you know, my next question is, are we seeing a crack in the glass ceiling for women, minorities in law?Megan Mathias  32:13  We are, I mean, the metrics aren't great. So we get these reports out from the National Association of Women lawyers, for example. And sometimes you're like, wow, that's brutal. But now there's more than 50% of people graduating from law schools are female, there's a lot of movement towards genuine diversity and inclusion programs within law firms still tough. It's still It's why I have pink walls at my firm because we send a message. But I do think there's been some a lot of progress made, and people are very aware, and the clients are now demanding it, which is killer, because before the clients are demanding it, you're sort of barking up a tree when clients are demanding it and you're saying, look, you can you can potentially get more work or whatever, you can make the business case for diversity, unfortunately. And they now it's people are more aware. And so I do think we're making Alright,Ron Bockstahler  33:01  but your clients are demanding it. And I know we're gonna run short on time, but you just keep I love talking to you. You're You're wonderful. Now, let's talk about the Coca Cola GC. Remember, when he demanded law firms had I think it's 20%, he was looking for a minority representation. And you know, three months later, he's gone. So are they really? Do they really? Are they able to do it? Or do we still have the old boy network at the back, you know, in the back of the room, still kind of dictating What's going on?Megan Mathias  33:24  Yeah, oh, there's definitely the old boy network, for sure. In Chicago is different than other places, you know, even in counties in Illinois, that's a whole different ballgame. But, but I do think it's making a difference. Because you can also say, in addition to why you should do this, morally, ethically, and just because you're a good human, you should also expect to get more business because some clients are, and I work a lot with younger, more diverse companies, with younger leaders, and people are absolutely demanding it at that level. So it just kind of depends on the playground you're in and my playground includes a lot of women and people of color. So we're we all demanded and expected and it's really, really fun to work with a really diverse team that gets it.Ron Bockstahler  34:07  Well, I'm glad that you're out there people like you're out there. Of course, four of my six children are women or young lady, so you know, I'm looking for a better life from them for them. So more power, I hope we would make some major changes. Thank you.Megan Mathias  34:18  Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you. What's fun,Ron Bockstahler  34:20  absolutely is there you want to leave the audience with like one final thought with your candidacy for the 45th Ward, your law firm, anything you want. Well, weMegan Mathias  34:28  love to help. Like I said companies run by forward thinkers. So we have a full service firm that can help in run even, you know, latest NGC plus do type work. It's my favorite thing to do these days. And as it relates to my word I just want to meet I want to shake everybody's hand in the whole world. And listen, that's what I'm on my listening tour right now. So I want to hear from everyone. So check us out at Megan for 45th word thatRon Bockstahler  34:53  calm. Awesome, Megan. Thanks for joining us today. It's great having you on love your insight and best of luck on the campaign.Megan Mathias  34:59  Thanks so much. appreciate your support.Ron Bockstahler  35:01  Thanks, everyone joining us today, we will talk to you again next week. I believe we are talking about family planning estate planning next week. So look forward to a great show next week. All right, that's it.Megan Mathias  35:10  Awesome. Thanks so much. Awesome. Cool.Ron Bockstahler  35:12  Doctor, I just love talking to you. So I think, Oh, thankMegan Mathias  35:14  you. That was really cool. I appreciate the opportunity.Ron Bockstahler  35:17  You've got so much going for you. I learned a lot about you today. So that's really cool, happy to help in any way we can. Also, when you get more when things are rolling, or you want to do it we can have I know when people run for judge, we did some fundraising, or introduction parties at the Summer centers. Let's do it. That was kind of fun. Yeah, know how that helps you.Megan Mathias  35:35  I'm in these groups that kind of bubbled up during COVID to help all the lawyers figure everything out. I think it would be cool for you to come and speak one day to those group of Lady lawyers. They're all Family Law Attorneys, like there's like 60 in the group, but usually, like 2025 show up every Wednesday, on the calendar. And I think he has some claims out of it.Ron Bockstahler  35:54  I mean, I want you know, for me, it's more about getting clients about changing the practice of law. This is this is my passion is I really want to make practicing law say easier, more enjoyable, so we can get legal services to the 74% of Americans who can't afford them. Absolutely. You know, we just got to change the way things are done. And that's kind of what the premise of what we're doing. SoMegan Mathias  36:12  Awesome. Well, great. I look. All right. I'll see you in a few weeks.Ron Bockstahler  36:16  Sounds good. Okay, bye. Bye. Bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, Stephen E. Seckler, Esq. talks about how lawyers should adopt marketing strategies that feel comfortable and how hiring a coach make a big difference in building a law practice. Steve also talks about how he coaches lawyers through career transitions.  He describes the work he is now doing with senior lawyers who are trying to decide what comes next. Steve is host of his own podcast, Counsel to Counsel. He is a lawyer who has dedicated his entire career to helping attorneys find more career satisfaction. Timestamps:How young lawyers can overcome marketing challenges (3:52)Marketing tips for all kinds of lawyers (15:18)The importance of getting a coach and business development tips (27:44)The next stage for seniors (36:54) “Find a niche that you really like and enjoy, really go deep with that niche, you want to be known for something. When you're a young lawyer, again, the focus really should be on being a great lawyer giving great client service.” - Stephen Seckler Connect with Stephen Seckler:Website: http://www.counseltocounsel.com/LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/stephenseckler Stephen Seckler, President of Seckler Legal Recruiting and CoachingLegal Recruiting and CoachingStephen Sackler is a lawyer with over 25 years with marketing and career counseling experience working with other attorneys. He hosts the Counsel to Counsel Podcast where he interviews leading attorneys and consultants about the legal profession and his blog Counsel to Counsel has been twice named to the ABA Journal's Blawg 100. LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenseckler/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  1:53  Our guest today is Stephen Sackler, a lawyer with over 25 years with marketing and career counseling experience working with other attorneys. Even hosts, he hosts the podcast Council, the counselor, where he interviews legal leading attorneys and consultants about the legal profession. And his blog counselor counselor has been twice named to the ABA journal journals blog 100. So the juror doctor is in Stephen, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Happy to be here. Hey, let's get started a little bit by laying some groundwork and talk about your background and how you found your calling and helping other attorneys achieve success.Stephen Seckler  2:52  Okay, well, it's been a long journey. I did go to law school. And when I graduated, I wasn't feeling that motivated to continue. On my journey to become a practicing lawyer. I made a stab at finding a legal job. But then I stumbled into Massachusetts continuing legal education, where I was developing continuing education programs, I was hobnobbing with the leaders of the bar in Massachusetts. And I got very interested in marketing, business development. Interested in general career development, I also saw how some of the leaders of the bar were really cultivating and building their own careers. So in 1997, about seven years after I began that I decided to launch my own consulting business. And initially, I was really focused heavily on recruiting. More recently, I have been focused much more on coaching lawyers on how to grow their practice, as you said, and how to manage their careers. And that's what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so.Ron Bockstahler  3:52  So Steve, let's kind of start with some of the challenges new lawyers are facing and building the practice. And I kind of really want to hit maybe a little focus on the marketing of their services and building their book of business.Stephen Seckler  4:04  Sure, well, what I always say to young lawyers is that when you're beginning your legal career, the most important thing you could do is become a great lawyer, learn your craft. Try to learn as much as you can about whatever practice area you're in. But at a certain point, and especially for lawyers who stay in private practice, having your own clients is really what's going to make you a much happier lawyer. In my observation over the last 2530 years. It's the lawyers who really have their own clients who have their own book of business that have more career flexibility, and they're basically just happier. And that's not entirely true because there are some niche practice areas that don't lend themselves as well, to business development. But for the most part, a lot of lawyers in private practice are happier when they have their own clients.Ron Bockstahler  4:52  Now, I seen I believe you're on Steve Breton show not too long ago. Be that be that attorney I think is what his show is called. And, you know, Steve's always about building your book of business. And that's what really brings your value, either at the firm or when you go in on your own. But how do you build that book of business? You know, what's been your journey? If I met a big firm, I mean, I'm working your big time hours, I don't have time to go out and really make relationships. And what are you how are you suggesting a young attorney that's 10, a few years 10 or fewer years practicing to build their book.Stephen Seckler  5:30  So the first thing is to find a niche that you really like and enjoy and really go deep with that niche, you want to be known for something. When you're a young lawyer, again, the focus really should be on being a great lawyer giving great client service. And the clients could be the lawyers who you report to the partners, as well as the real clients who are paying the fees. But as you get more senior, new, there are things that you can do to continue to lay the groundwork for success in business development. As a young lawyer, maybe you might help a partner prepare some course materials for a CLE program, maybe you might write some blog posts yourself, maybe you might post some things on social media. But basically, as a young lawyer, you can begin to develop this niche. And you could also begin to start to produce some content yourself. Maybe as you get a little bit more senior, you might appear on a panel or on a presentation, do a presentation, maybe it might be internal presentations. So even though there are very strong demands on young lawyers these days, to bill a lot of hours, there are little things that you could do. The other thing is as you get out of Well, as you leave law school, and you enter the working world, you still have relationships that will eventually bear fruit, these are people that you went to college with people that you went to law school with. And if you just maintain and keep up those relationships over time, those could blossom, it's not clear which ones will become business. But as a young lawyer, just making sure to get out of your office once in a while, or calling a friend, or getting on a zoom as we do now in the world of COVID. Just being aware that you can't build a practice, you won't be able to build a practice if you don't connect with the world. And you can lay the foundation and it's like investing for anything you invest for college, if you start at the moment, when you want to actually have enough money for college, it's kind of late if you start investing in the relationship building early on and just kind of pick away at it. It's like farming, you plant the seeds and they will grow.Ron Bockstahler  7:36  So you've helped a lot of attorneys adjust their careers either moving from one firm, maybe they weren't happy something wasn't working out to other firms. mean is it recommended to make a lot of moves within your career?Stephen Seckler  7:49  Well, within reason, I mean, it depends upon the reason for making the move. Sometimes people get off on the wrong foot, that's not an uncommon reason for somebody to make a lateral move. Lawyers are can be unforgiving, especially at the larger law firms in terms of how people make a bad first impression. So sometimes making a lateral move can help you with that. A better reason. And a lot of times the reasons that I help and have helped people make lateral moves, is because the firm didn't really have the kind of clients where they weren't able to do the kind of work that they wanted to do. And then sometimes they don't like the environment in general, they don't like the way the firm is run, the use of technology, the commitment to professional development. So there are sometimes non practice reasons why people make lateral moves.Ron Bockstahler  8:35  And it goes back to what you said earlier, find that niche that you really enjoy doing and just become the best at it. Yeah, that seems a common theme. I think that's what helps us create just happiness and what we're doing, which and let's we'll kind of hit on a little of the mental health issues in the legal industry. I know. You've recently had a guest on your show. Ida Abbott talked a little bit about, you know, designing or designing your retirement, I guess. And you know, when does that start? Well,Stephen Seckler  9:08  it's at some firms in reverse starts. But, but in a healthy firm, I think by the time lawyers are three or you know, beyond 30 years into practice, that's something they might want to be thinking about. And something I've been focusing on more lately. Because a healthy law firm has to keep praying or any organization that's healthy, has to keep bringing up the next generation of talent. And again, it's the same thing as investment. If you kind of wait until the day before you retire, you haven't really laid the groundwork for transitioning the clients. If you stay practicing until late into your 60s into your 70s you show no sign of relinquishing control over the firm. Then the up and coming talent may decide they're not going to stick around. So there's a threat to the firm because the clients may leave and there's a threat to the talent Management because the talent may leave. So I would argue that once you're into well into your 50s, that's when it's a good time to start thinking actually, from my own experience. When our last child went off to college in 2017, my wife and I participated in a program on aging. And it was a great program. And we didn't get the memo, like everybody else in the program was like, in their late 60s and early 70s. And what was so great about not they weren't lawyers, it was just other professionals, or the one of them was a musician who had trained as a lawyer in practice for a while. And what I realized is that it really never is too soon to be thinking about, about the next stage. So a couple of summers ago, I went out and bought a Martin guitar and started playing.Ron Bockstahler  10:47  Alright, already starting to plan that retirement.Stephen Seckler  10:51  Yeah, I won't be retired for a long time. ButRon Bockstahler  10:54  you know, I'd sent you that article recently. Martha McGarry, let's talk about that real quick scans. first female m&a partner says no to retirement to forced retirement at 70 and moves over to I believe, Mayor Brown, you know, what do you think of that? What kind of get some input on that?Stephen Seckler  11:12  I think it's a really, I think it's a conundrum because people age at different rates. I mean, it was talking to sort of have a hard and fast rule. May, you may have somebody that's got a lot of vibrancy at the age of 75. And you may have somebody that's really on the decline at the age of 70. So I heard two stories from the CEO of a law firm called burns and Levinson here in Boston. It's a midsize firm. And he told me two tales, one of a lawyer who was about 70, and had planned out a nice transition transition to all his clients over a period of three years, and then spent a lot more time with his grandchildren got involved in a lot of nonprofit causes and had a happy departure from the firm. And then he told me about another partner who was in his late 70s. And it was already experiencing some cognitive decline. And partners at the firm, were noticing it, the clients were starting to notice it. And eventually he ended up leaving the firm. He didn't want to relinquish control. He just wasn't ready to leave because he didn't know what he was going to do next. And he died a year later. I mean, it was sort of tragic.Ron Bockstahler  12:21  Yeah, that I can tell you within, you know, my firm and model office suites, I've it kind of thinking about that. And, you know, listening to your show with Ida, I went and looked back, and we've had seven law attorneys that have passed away while still, you know, working in our spaces. And two of my specifically recall talking to about when they retire, and they said when I die. And well, I yeah, I don'tStephen Seckler  12:48  I don't think that's the wrong answer for everybody. But I think that, you know, there are some people that really get meaning it's all about meaning. It's like, it's the existential question of where do you how do you derive meaning and I think for some people, like I had a friend whose father was a lawyer, and he went into the office until he was in his late 80s. He just loved being a lawyer. I mean, he wasn't going in full time. And you know, by the time he was in his late 80s, he certainly wasn't doing a ton of client work. But you can't really say, you know, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, she was a Supreme Court justice until well into her 80s. Now, for political reasons. Some may say that that was a colossal mistake if you happen to lean the way I do. But she was vibrant. She was sharp, she was producing great work, and she loved her work. So I don't think the there's a right answer for anybody. I think a large firm though, like, like Skadden or any of the bigger institutions, I mean, I know accounting firms actually have mandatory retirement at a much younger age. They're like, 62, I think I heard. And the reasoning there is that, again, it's the succession planning issue. It's how are the clients going to have confidence that they're going to continue to be served? How are the up and coming talent going to perceive that there's going to be room for them. But I mean, I don't think a healthy model is to say you have to leave I think a healthier model is I think it's good when Proctor has a model where you have to give up your equity, maybe at the age of 67. I'm not sure what the ages. But it doesn't mean you have to leave, you can work out an arrangement where you can continue to do work. But you know, and that, and some lawyers do want to continue to do work. But some lawyers just haven't been able to figure out what they want to do next door. It's just terrifying to think about what's going to happen after the day they're not coming into the office. And so I'm doing a lot of work in that realm. And I'm really enjoying it.Ron Bockstahler  14:42  And I want to get to you have a new program called the next stage but before we get to that I kind of want to reel is back just a little bit. You know, a lot of our listeners are going to be on the younger side. 30s 40s 50s and 60s, I guess it's still we're talking about young and you're careful, careful. Let's talk a little bit more about some of the challenges are facing and you know, What is there? Is there a specific trait that really makes attorney really good at originating work going out and getting new business? Or is it is it a trade or something that they can learn?Stephen Seckler  15:18  So I used to think that any lawyer could become a good Rainmaker. And I don't mean like a $10 million Rainmaker, but I used to think that any lawyer could develop a practice. And now I think that most lawyers can develop a practice. There are some lawyers that literally will always be best suited to being in the back office, working on the deals by looking at the documents and not really interacting as much with the clients. So and that's fine. For some people, tax seems to be an area where that that seems to happen. But a lot of lawyers, a lot of the people that are in your offices could definitely improve their marketing skills. And I think the biggest problem that a lot of lawyers have is that they save marketing for a rainy day. They are busy, they're doing work, everything seems good. And then they wait until they don't have enough work. And then they start marketing. And successful marketing is really like the tortoise and the hare story, the tortoise is the one that's going to win the race, because, you know, you don't know when someone is going to have a need for your services. And I have a friend who's in my network in our networking group revisers, Michael Katz, and he talks about when he does presentations to people on marketing, he'll say how many of you are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 minutes. And like, nobody's going to buy a refrigerator the next 15 minutes, how many of you are going to buy a refrigerator the next 15 years. And of course, a lot of people are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 years. And that is the essence of the problem with selling professional services you don't know when somebody you meet is going to have a need for your services, or hear of somebody who has a need for your services. Therefore, showing up on a regular basis, making it a habit is really important. And it's really hard for lawyers, particularly at the larger law firms where the hours are grueling to set aside time to do that. But if you could make just a little bit of time to sort of systematically, drop a note forward an article, post something on LinkedIn and show up once in a while at a bar association meeting, connect with an old law school classmate, connect with a college classmate who's now in a corporate environment, those things over time will pay off because at some point in the future, somebody may have a need for your services. And somebody may know if somebody was a need for your services, or they may never have a need for your services. But you may hear of a need that they have.Ron Bockstahler  17:52  It's a great point. Now it add to that is be genuine. And you know, find a networking group or associations you can belong to that you really have an interest in. Not just you're not just going because you want to get work. It I think people can tell.Stephen Seckler  18:11  I agree. I mean, you and I are improvisers. And what I love about pro visors, I've been a member for two years. And I'm like not drinking the Kool Aid. I'm like guzzling it. And I say that jokingly. But I mean, what I love about it is people are just so eager to help each other. It's really almost not like the real world. I mean, I just got a referral of a lawyer who's thinking about the some of these existential issues. The person who, who referred me as a marketing consultant, so she's not a lawyer, but she met this person who seemed like she had a need. And she referred this woman to me, she said, You should call Steve. And she didn't, actually this woman followed up with me and said, Did so and so contact you said No, I haven't heard from her. But I really, really appreciate the referrals. Who said I'm going to call her again. And so she called her again. And she said, you know, you really talked to Steve. And we spoke and we're going to work together. It's, it's a, it's a great network. So finding a networking group where people are genuine and authentic, like providers, and we're not unique, but it really helps to be around people that are like minded.Ron Bockstahler  19:17  Yeah, that makes me think of you as a coach. Is it? Is it hard for other attorneys to admit they need a coach?Stephen Seckler  19:27  It's it's really hard for attorneys to think that they need a coach. I mean, lawyers are sort of trained to think they can go it alone. They're gonna figure it all out. I'm smart. And the best expression of this that I heard was another coach. He doesn't really work with lawyers. Somebody also improvisers Sergio symbol. And he didn't attribute the quote anywhere, but the quote is basically, you can't read the label from inside the jar. And the notion there is that we none of us are self reflective. I mean, the best coaches that I know improvisers all have coaches I mean, that's how, how meta it is. So why does a lawyer think that they went to law school? And they learned how to research, you know, case law? Why do they think they should know anything at all about marketing. I mean, a lot of a lot of the coaching, though, is motivational. It's getting people to act, and holding them accountable. So I'm not saying that what we do as coaches is rocket science all the time. Sometimes I provide content that people hadn't thought of, I give them ideas. A lot of it is just holding them accountable and saying, Hey, you know, you said you were gonna do 10 push ups. So what's getting in your way?Ron Bockstahler  20:39  That's, that's a great point, you spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars going and get this amazing education. And then you start spending on yourself to continue the self improvement. And it really takes a push, I think, to get not just attorneys, but all of us to just go out there and go ahead and do need someone to help me.Stephen Seckler  20:58  Well, again, it has to do with like, thinking with an investment mentality, I'm investing in something. And lawyers are not always so good at that, you know, you get a client, you do the work, you build it out, and you get back. The fees are paid, you know, in marketing, you have to do lots of different things, and many of them won't have any return. So when, you know, I never promised anybody that I'm going to increase their business by any particular amount. So it may seem a little bit nebulous for what value am I actually getting. But you know, Michael Jordan had a coach outside of Phil Jackson. I don't know, I'm not really a basketball fan. ButRon Bockstahler  21:45  let's, let's, if we, you know, it's interesting, looking at the return, you get on Marketing, and today, you drive down the highway, and you see a ton of billboards. And it's, I mean, I bet 60% of them are from law firms, or attorneys. At least that's my perception. What was it like, if you go back before 1976, I think when the Bates versus the State Bar of Arizona case, when attorneys actually couldn't market.Stephen Seckler  22:12  I think that was a world in which lawyers did good work. And the work came to them. And then if you were a young lawyer, you got to the law firm, you learned how to be a lawyer, and eventually those became your clients. That's not the world we live in anymore.Ron Bockstahler  22:29  Today, you gotta go. I've never actually called an attorney. From a marketing piece, I've always called someone I know, and said, Who do you know that can do this type of work?Stephen Seckler  22:41  Well, I mean, the kinds of lawyers that put the billboards out are trying to market to individuals, and the kinds of individuals they're trying to market to, they may not have a big professional network. I mean, lots of people get injured, some of them have big professional networks. If I were injured, if a family member of mine were injured, I wouldn't absolutely reach out to a lawyer I knew liked and trusted. I mean, I happen to know a lot of personal injury lawyers already. But you know, if it was an area of specialization that I didn't know, I would get a referral. But a lot of people don't have those networks. So those billboards, I think, still work. Social media is probably even more effective now, though, because when somebody has a need, it's pretty common for people to Google it. But I don't think the you know, the general counsel if you need to attacks, you know, if he needs an Ursa specialist. I don't think the general counsel of GE, is typing in Ursa and googling it, you know, right?Ron Bockstahler  23:35  Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about you know, moving on from that, let's talk about other career issues that you are seeing attorneys are experiencing just in the attorneys you're working with, because I know you're working with quite a few.Stephen Seckler  23:48  So I really enjoy helping lawyers sort of think through career transitions. So a common theme is lawyers want to go in house. And helping them think that through. Those are some of the people that I work with on a coaching basis. And these are particularly people like if you're a fifth year corporate associate, at a large law firm, you're going to get called by recruiters, you're going to be able to go in house, you're going to be able to be reactive. But for the rest of the world wanting to go into a corporate environment, that may be a harder transition. So the skills that I work with my clients on in career transitions are kind of similar to the marketing skills, it's about networking, going out and getting information, building your network, leveraging the contacts that you have. I was recently working with a ninth year associate who didn't make partner so that involved a little bit of propping her up she hadn't she was at a big law firm and thought everything was going well and you know, as does happen at a lot of these firms. She was kind of Sideswipe I've been taken aback, we went through a whole process. And eventually, I actually ended up introducing into the firm where she's now working, which is a regional firm in another part of the country. And she's not only excited about no longer working at a large law firm, where the hours are really grueling. But she's also excited about starting to grow her practice. And so we worked on her networking skills and her communication. And through that, she was able to see that she actually has some skill in relationship building that will help her to build a practice as she enters this new firm, with, by the way, lower bill rates, I have other clients who decide that they want to start their own practice. I've helped lawyers through those transitions. And a lot of the clients I work with, it's really helping them be develop a marketing mentality, develop marketing habits. And that's where people see the word lawyers see the greatest value in coaching because they could see like a real ROI. Whereas career stuff is a little bit more nebulous.Ron Bockstahler  26:04  It just shows Is it true that if you can get someone to do something for 21 days, they can create a habit never worked for me? It didn't work for me that I just curious, if you find something that maybe I don't know about?Stephen Seckler  26:18  I don't know about the 21 days, it takes a long time to get people to change their their behavior. It really does. I mean, I don't know. I'm just thinking about myself, although I did realize that I needed to get rid of the COVID. Wait, I gave the Colt the COVID 15. And sometime around the beginning of May, that's when I really took the bull by the horns. And now, and I basically went to work, work out every single morning. Except for the day after I totaled my car, I thought I should take the day off after that. But long story, short story didn't matter. It was fine. I was fine. But now I woke up like for example today. And I didn't work out because at a very early meeting. And I felt like I my day didn't start off. Right, you know, I did meditate, which I do also when I wake up, so I you know, but I think it takes longer than 30 days actually to develop marketing habits, because it's very contrary to the way lawyers think they need to spend their time you know, it's hard to fight the billable hour, the billable hour, is immediate, in some ways immediate gratification, you're going to do the work, you're going to build it out. And for the most part, you're going to collect that money. It's a lot easier as humans for us to see. And be motivated to do things where we get immediate rewards. Marketing is something that you have to do over a long period of time. So working with a coach can help build that muscle, like the reward you might get is like, you know, Steve Sackler will say, like, that was a great meeting you just had good job. Attaboy. And I, you know, I say that jokingly, but I mean, you know, trust me, it really helps like, you know, I'm losing, I've lost my weight. And, you know, I'm telling I'm reporting to my wife, I get off the scale, and I text her right away. And she's like, that's great, you know, and I feel that much more motivated to keep working out every day and to cut down on the carbohydrates and eat more protein and, and not eat mindlessly.Ron Bockstahler  28:21  So those are things you get from a coach is that positive reinforcement. But, you know, you when you mentioned the attorney that nine years didn't make partner, I made me think do you ever talk about the shortage, maybe a shortness in your abilities? And how do you improve? You know, avoiding what your skill sets are?Stephen Seckler  28:41  I'm sorry, you mean? Like, if you're working on something where it's not really in your it's not really one of your strengths, but you're kind of doing it anyway?Ron Bockstahler  28:48  I guess it's kind of like card school? Do you have to come and say, you aren't a great networker, and let's talk about why you're not a great networker and what you can do to improve? Or is it all just all positive? Okay, well, I'm here to support you and make you build, youStephen Seckler  29:05  know, I mean, I have plenty of clients that I, you know, I have to work really hard with to sort of get them to act. And some of them will never do it. You know, they just, they'll try and they won't, I won't say that's most of them. But some people are just not wired that way. I mean, look, if you don't like playing golf, and I only throw golf out, because it's sort of like a quintessential business development tool. It doesn't work for me. But if you don't like golf, you're not going to play. You're not going to enjoy yourself that's going to come across, you're going to make excuses not to do it. So. So you have to find out find things to do that you like that are consistent with business development, with marketing with generating work, and if you fundamentally don't like people, and I don't mean like you're misanthrope, but you just you know you don't really like learning about where somebody is kids go to school, or I mean I enjoyed learning little details about people I'm very I'm a natural schmoozer, you know, but I mean you don't have to. I'm not a natural glad hander. But you know, if you if you really don't like doing that at all, then it's going to be hard to be successful. But I have a client who didn't see himself as a successful Rainmaker. I'll use the word Rainmaker, but I don't mean it to mean millions. And he went through this process with me, he'd been practicing for 20 years, and we had some somewhat of a book of business, but it wasn't, certainly wasn't enough to go to another ham law 50 firm. And he did end up getting a job with another amla 50 firm again, I made the introduction, I didn't do it as a recruiter. But he went through this whole process. And now he's like, Well, actually, I do like going to baseball games, I like going to, you know, I enjoy being a basketball game sporting events. I like having coffee with people. So we're focusing on those things that he likes doing. People always say like, wow, I don't want to go to networking functions. I don't like that, well, you don't have to go to networking functions. I mean, in some ways, actually, networking functions can be a big waste of time. There's a there's an event in Massachusetts, there's an organization called combined Jewish philanthropies. And it's a hugely successful fundraising organization. It doesn't fund just Jewish causes. But you know, there's a lot of social service agencies that get their money from CJP. And every year, they have a big accountants, and lawyers, dinner, they didn't have one this past year, obviously. And I always go, and I don't go back. And you know, the organizational make a big hype about it, I think it's frankly, if you don't know too many people, and you go to something like that, it's not necessarily a great use of your time, I don't go there because I expect to get have meaningful interactions or, or really get to know new people. Although sometimes I do meet new people, I go there, because I know I'm going to run into a lot of Jewish and non Jewish lawyers and accountants. And then I'll make appointments to have coffee with them and follow up. So I'll go to a meeting that has 1000 people. And I'll end up setting up three appointments after that. But I do it because I know I'm going to run into people. If somebody doesn't know anybody in that environment, that's going to be you know, you're not going to be motivated to do it. So I work with people to sort of figure out what are the things that they're going to enjoy that are going to give them the opportunities to make the connections that might lead to direct work or referrals?Ron Bockstahler  32:25  So you kind of just took it right? Where I was thinking I want to go? And maybe I wasn't asking my question in the best way. But you got what I was looking for anyway, was, you know, I talked to a lot of attorneys and including myself to say, I hate networking. And okay, there's other things you can do you maybe you hate the concept, but there's things you do like, like, you know, just like going to a baseball game, that figure out the things you do enjoy doing and do those things. And you can still build your book of business through those type of activities, not necessarily the ones you don't like to do.Stephen Seckler  32:58  Exactly. I mean, if you like nonprofit work, community work, you know, you want to choose those activities where you're going to meet the kinds of people you want to meet. So like my my one of my I have a lot of stupid dad jokes that I use when I coach but one of my repeat jokes is, you know, if you want to marry somebody Jewish, don't hang out a Catholic singles dances. I've been married happily for 27 years, every month at the moment plus, but anyway. So so you have to choose those, you know, if you have your choice between two activities, or two people that you're gonna have coffee with. And one of them is a social worker. And the other one is the CFO of a bank, and you want to do more work with banks, then go have coffee with the bank doesn't mean bank CFO, it doesn't mean you shouldn't have coffee with your friend, the social worker, but you know, we only have a limited amount of time. So if you're going to make time to do business, development, marketing, do the things that are things that you enjoy, as you're saying, and things that will potentially lead you to the community that you want to get to be known. Absolutely, IRon Bockstahler  34:12  can tell you a real funny story is. So Steve fretts has been a client of mine for many, many, many years. And I went to him this is a friend one day and I said my partner had retired and my partner was the I call them the ultimate sales guy talked to everyone just loved doing that and allowed me to kind of sit in the background. And I sat Steve's asked and I said I got a problem. I hate networking. I hate more hate talking to people I hate all these things. He's like, Ron, you really don't have to go any Why don't you just open up your Rolodex. And you can kind of show your age and talk about a Rolodex and just start calling people you already know. And, you know, I'd looked at him I said because I never thought of that. So that was as simple as you know, here's a resource you already have. You don't got to go do a mixer of 100 people and you know, stand at the corner and talk to one person Don't go to that mixer. Just make phone calls with people you know. And you another thing I did, you know not liking these things as the Simon Wiesenthal Center is a big organization, you know, worldwide but in Chicago, Allison slovan peers, one of my good friends, and she's the director. So she would invite me to these events and I say house, I really just don't want to go first, I'm not Jewish. No, you'll go, you'll have your good time. And I started going, and then I started buying a table. And then I started bringing people. And all of a sudden, you know, I built so many good solid relationships from doing something that I enjoyed. Now, they have the woman women of valor luncheon, except for this year, almost every year. And you go to things like that where you can, it's, it's your passion, something you're passionate about. Next thing, you know, you're building great relationships, and you don't even realize you're networking, if you will.Stephen Seckler  35:54  Well, it's interesting that you bring up Steve frets, and because I've been getting to know him well, and I'm learning a tremendous amount from them. And Steve will take what I just said about not spending time at the Catholic singles dances, to the next extreme and and say that, if you're having networking meetings, try to structure them, so that you can come to them thinking about how you can help each other so that you're not just having random acts of lunch and coffee. And he's really good at that, you know, just because we all have ways that we can help each other. And it doesn't mean that, you know, there's any specific thing that I'm going to get out of it. But if I could help somebody else, then you know, you never know, you never know when you're gonna meet your wife or your, your wife, sister.Ron Bockstahler  36:38  Well, and that's what I call being genuine, right, you're going because you got a genuine reason not because you're looking for something. And I think that makes a big difference. So we're kind of run out of time. So I really want you to talk about the next stage for seniors that you've got going on in your program your you've launched.Stephen Seckler  36:54  So the next stage is really something that I've gotten very excited about over the last year and a half. So as you know, I sent you an article I wrote, my parents died at the beginning of the pandemic. And they live long lives, they were quite elderly. So very sad, not tragic. And they did die of COVID. But what it really made me start to think about is what do I really want from my career. And then I started to realize this, a lot of lawyers, particularly in their 60s, not always could be younger, who really haven't thought that through, then who could really benefit from working with somebody to come up with a plan a strategy and to start experiment thing. It's not like practicing law, the process that I take people through the next stage is really about having an open mind taking action. I base my work on something called designing your life, which is a book by Bill Burnett, and Dave Evans, who are out in Stanford, and they applied design thinking to career management, actually, either avid who you've mentioned, just wrote a great book, which is more focused on retirement, their book is more focused just on careers in general. But there's a bunch of principles that they that they raised, that I think are really great for career exploration, and they're very, very different than the practice of law. Lawyers sort of have a goal in mind, and they work towards it until they close the deal till they produce the will. Until they, you know, move the case along and and take the depositions and then whatever, the it's very, very goal oriented, the process that I take people through is not you don't know where you're going. And that's okay. And what I love about working with people that are sort of later in their career, because I'm also at the stage myself is if you've made it financially well enough, I mean, not all of us could be wiped out by by long term care. But, you know, forgetting that a lot of lawyers are in this country are ageing, and you know, they've made it and it's more like, they just haven't figured out what to do next. So they keep doing the same thing. But they have options. And I love working with people to sort of draw out of them. What is it that really makes them motivated, and part of it could just be doing more pro bono work or being involved on committees, mentoring younger associates, or it could be something like spending a little more time with their grandchildren, and cutting back on the practice. So there's all kinds of options, and it's an exciting time. And there are a lot of lawyers that are in the situation. There's a lot of aging baby boomers. And then the final piece of it that really excites me about doing this kind of work is that it feels like there's a need there. And the need is that, as I've alluded to already, you know, a lot of law firms need to think about these issues from a from an organizational standpoint because the health of the organization will rely on how well law firms continue to Bring up the next generation of talent and and make sure that the clients that they have feel like they're going to continue to be served. Because I mean, you know, we never know how, you know what, how long we're all going to be here on this earth. And I'm not saying that every 70 year old isn't in danger of imminent death. But you know, realistically, if a law firm hasn't done anything, or a lawyer hasn't done anything to sort of lay the groundwork for transitioning clients, and they're 70, you know, they could drop dead from a heart attack the next day. Or they could start to go into some cognitive decline. So thinking these things through on the, on a systemic level is really important for the law firm. And I think what gets in the way of it is that a lot of lawyers are afraid of, of what's going to happen when they aren't going into the office every single day. So I really enjoy helping lawyers to figure that out and address that issue.Ron Bockstahler  40:54  Yeah, we don't have time to go into it today. But I think having your back would be great to talk about the mental health. You know, we know there's a lot of addiction and some not so good things that working so hard, and the stress that can come from being a lawyer kind of falls into place into play, it's been addressed a little bit more now. But definitely something I think having a coach would help.Stephen Seckler  41:16  There's a lot of work going on in this in this realm, I'm actually going to be doing a webinar, I don't have a date yet, or any information specifically, but people can reach out to me, I'm going to be doing a webinar in the fall on keeping your law firm, healthy, and I'm going to be speaking. And then a woman who runs basically a wellness program where she does, basically wellness coaching and crisis intervention in institutions like, you know, corporations, but also law firms. So there are all kinds of issues that that are getting more attention now. And you know, succession planning what people do with their careers as part of it, just dealing with what you just said, substance abuse is another piece of it. And, you know, it's not all about just working, I mean, even fully cared about was making money, you got to make the machines run properly. And that means paying attention to these issues.Ron Bockstahler  42:09  Well, you got to be happy with what you're doing. And if we're happy we can make the world a better place. Right. It's a good starting point. Steve, I want to thank you for joining us today. It's been great talking to me, there's so many things we could talk about. But I think that I think we'll just get I thought we're just getting started. Now we'll have to have another show, I think people need to know that. You know, having a coach someone they can work with is super important. You spent so much money to get to law school, don't stop having someone help you out someone in your corner. And you know, call and get a coach, a counselor, the counselor, you can find Steve that counselor, Counselor calmStephen Seckler  42:49  is actually a counsel to counsel calm,Ron Bockstahler  42:52  yeah. He's got a great podcast, I've listened of many of his shows need to tune in to understand what's going on, just give him a call, because I think he can help help you, no matter what stage of your career you're at, he can help you just, you know, either positive reinforcement or say, hey, look, here's what you can do to make it better. But you know, take that extra step and find a way to enjoy what you're doing. You gotta leave the final comments to you.Stephen Seckler  43:17  Yeah, no, I agree. It's, you know, life is too short, you know, start doing what you want to do, if you can, I mean, it is a bit of a luxury, but if you could afford the opportunity to, you know, to change the life and try to build the life that you want. There's no reason not to do it.Ron Bockstahler  43:37  You know, I can say that my career, you know, I've worked with 1000s of attorneys, with my company. And I've seen so many just quit practicing law, brilliant attorneys, but they were just frustrated. And it really had nothing to do with, with law itself. It had to do with the business side or had to do with, you know, other things that that could have been controlled if they were if they had a coach if they had the right people. And so I just stressed you, instead of getting frustrated, just reach out for some help. And, you know, call Steve, he'll help you out.Stephen Seckler  44:08  Well, thanks, Ron, I really appreciate it. And it's been really great meeting you and learning about your services. And I'm excited about your services, because now I have a place to send all these people that are starting their law practices, who want resources like paralegals that they don't necessarily want to hire, but they need on a fractional basis. I think that's a fantastic resource.Ron Bockstahler  44:29  And we appreciate that, you know, it took me a long time, just like a lawyer trying to figure out what their career is going to be. But it took me a long time to figure out what, what I wanted to do, and you know, what my company would look like. So I started my company 20 years ago, but it wasn't till 2012 that I really started, you know, working only were exclusive with law firms. And then I realized what I really want to do is I want to make legal services available to everyone in the world at affordable price, but to do that You gotta, you gotta find a way for the attorneys to, you know, be able to do it. And that's what kind of led to what we're doing today. But you know, there's, there's a way to do it. And I'm talking to the attorneys that are working in corporate America that are making, you know, millions and hundreds of millions dollars that we all hear about. Because that's not the majority. 76% of attorneys are with the firm of five or fewer partners, or they're on their own. But it's really hard to be able to afford to give low cost, legal practice and still survive. And I think that's where we're and then we're seeing some sandbox start starting, you know, what we got in Utah, we got in Arizona, California is talking about it. British, Ontario and BC just announced their new programs, that they're trying to adjust the way laws practice. But our vision, or at least my vision was to say, Okay, how do we make it, practicing law a fun thing to do, and you can do it and be successful and still help others. And that's where we came up with it. So, so working with people such as yourself, it just new expands that, that vision? Let's, let's make attorneys help happy, and they'll help other people?Stephen Seckler  46:08  Well, I think I think the model that you have is great, because, you know, I think ultimately people that I think a lot of people that do end up in practice by themselves, if they've had the luck and fortune of being trained up by a bigger firm, and they've gotten the training, they end up happier when they're in control of their own destiny, and having a front, you know, fractional resources that they can buy from someone like you, or an office that you know, they don't have to spend a fortune on. You know that really, and just buy what they need. That really does make it a lot more affordable. And the old model of you have to hire somebody to do everything. I mean, technology. There's so many ways to run a practice so much more efficiently now.Ron Bockstahler  46:49  Times have changed. We know that people say in law, things don't change fast, but COVID has really accelerated and a lot of things in law change. So I don't see things naturally going back to the way they were so. Yep. Well, thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening, everyone. You've been listening to the 1958 lawyer. We appreciate it and we look forward to talking to you again real soon. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

McKenna is the founder of Law x Design, a legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists and start-ups. In this episode, she talks about encouraging clients to think with a legal mindset to protect themselve's from liability. She also talks about how people are all unique, and the best way to keep clients is to acknowledge that they're all individuals and to dedicate a lot of time on networking. The mental health state of younger lawyers were also discussed and what we can do to improve it. They also talked about the current experience of women in law and what changes McKenna wants to see in the future of the business of law.  Timestamps:Getting clients into a legal state of mind and the “algorithm” of people - how to maintain your client-base (0:50)State of the mental health of younger lawyers (11:53)The current experience of women in law (17:53)Lawyers as trusted business advisors (26:31) “getting out and making connections... you can't put an algorithm on when you're talking to another person so basically 'networking, networking, networking' is the answer and you can't do it within the four walls of your home...    reaching people is about gathering” - McKenna Prohov McKenna ProhovWebsite: https://www.lawxdesign.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mckenna-prohov-05452050/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawxdesign_/?hl=en] McKenna Prohov, Law X Design Principle Attorney/FounderBusiness LawMcKenna is the Founder of Law by Design (Law X Design), a Chicago based legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists, and startups. She has cross-functional experience working on a variety of business initiatives primarily related to joint-venture business expansion opportunities, tech licensing and e-commerce issues. Over 2 years experience handling contract process for company's business operations, including reviewing and drafting terms that facilitate consensus and comply with applicable regulatory frameworks. Work across departments to identify risks in contracts, data services, and consumer protection. Contracts and compliance experience handling legal and business matters in business-solutions oriented environment. Collaborative and self-directed team member in driving process for structuring, drafting, and reviewing licensing, technology, intellectual property, and non-disclosure agreements, as well as pre-litigation documents.LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mckenna-prohov-05452050/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:23  Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I am your host, Ron box dollar. And with us today is McKenna Prohov. McKenna is the founder of law by design, a Chicago based legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists, and startups, McKenna, welcome to the show. You know, this is a really interesting area of law, you're dealing with a lot of creative types, individuals that are on their own. So let's kick it off talking about how you get your clients into a legal state of mind to use legal agreements versus a handshake, which is very common in this industry. McKenna Prohov  1:02  I think that the positive way to spend, you know, kind of getting a legal agreement behind your transaction, whether that is a contract, or maybe you know, making a partnership by operating agreement official or something, what it's doing is saying, Hey, I take you seriously enough, or I respect you enough to invest in getting something written down, that really speaks to the realness of what we're doing. Ron Bockstahler  1:28  Right? You almost want to say, what insurance got because like for insurance, like if you're a designer, or Gosh, think of even even an architect of some type, you get liabilities out there. So if you if your parents not going to cover it, if it's not in writing, I'm guessing anyway. So is that one way to talk to your clients? Like if you can't get the insurance to cover any malpractice or any concerns? Is that one of the things that you want to throw out there? McKenna Prohov  1:52  Yes, definitely, you totally can be liable. And, and even if it's not your fault, and it's with an architect, higher liability, right, higher risk, higher reward with an interior designer, their relative risk reward on a project, you know, maybe a bit lower, a little bit less liability, but but it's still there. And not only that, but even if something isn't your fault, you very likely will be named in a conflict. And that's still time and you know, your time and fees and petty, and, you know, possibly kind of emotional, or business fallout from right, follow up the relationship or something. So it is good to look at those things to make, you know, for any kind of professional to make clear, right, that's where an attorney can be on their side. And, you know, look out in a contract to kind of carve out those liabilities, liabilities and just say, hey, just so we're clear, client of mine, you know, other person, I'm not liable for these things, if something happens, you have to, you know, you go different avenue, or I'm not, you know, I'm not liable for more than the amount of the proceeds from insurance, if it's when it comes to insurance, or you just exclude yourself, you know, you agree to exclude yourself from certain things entirely, like any consequential just know that working professional is not going to be responsible in that case. Ron Bockstahler  3:10  50, I've read some studies about entrepreneurs, we're gonna see a lot more entrepreneurs, especially as we're coming out of this pandemic, which I would think would open up your client base opera. Yeah. Yeah. And word of mouth is how you're getting your business now. But I mean, how are you going to be able to bring on? I mean, how are you going to reach more people, as you're moving away? McKenna Prohov  3:31  Well, it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning, before before our talk. And one thing that I think and that, you know, I've been finding, and I think the answer to this is getting out and making connections. I mean, I've been struck by the power of, of connecting with people IRL, in real life, as we've been fortunate enough in this country in this state recently, to have things open back at backup, after the pandemic, the networking events that I have attended. I've just been, you know, blown away by the result of the unplanned, you know, spontaneous and collaborative conversation, just literally putting your body in a position to meet another human being, and learn something and have to say, you know, what it is that you want and need and have someone generate, you know, based on their experience in their network, an avenue that might benefit you or be mutually beneficial. So there to me, you know, there, that's never, that's always been the case. And that always will be the case. And it's because it speaks to something fundamental about who we are. And it's one of the reasons why I was thinking about this too. And I was like, you know, I would totally back this up in front of Ilan, but Scott would totally say this and go like, if you disagreed, I would go head to head This statement, which is that that's why still today, there is no computer that comes close to the power of the human brain. So the human brain is, is the, the most super super, you know, computer that's ever existed. And it is exactly for that reason, what I'm talking to you about that there's something you can't put an algorithm on when you're when you're talking to another person, and, you know, the thoughts that are generated as a result of those conversations. So basically, you know, networking, networking, networking, is the answer, and just, you can't do it within the four walls of your home, we, you know, are in a place where we can facilitate and expand opportunities through technology, but that cannot be the the only way there is something you couldn't network and have it be nearly the same rich, tapestry, you know, on the phone and on our computer, as as it is when you go out. So reaching people, you know, is about gathering, I guess, this is a really long answer to your question, but we must gather and, and we will gather because people crave that and you know, the wonderful thing about options, and when times are good, right? When we're all fortunate to, to live through good times, which means, you know, our country's not in a state of war, we are not at a pandemic, you know, barring those things. We, as individuals can choose how much we want to engage with those things, hopefully, they will be going on. And you know, for for one week, you know, McKenna might feel like she needs more rest and stay home, but Ron might say, Hey, I'm gonna Yeah, I'm gonna check out that event tonight, you know, at five o'clock, and it's, it's great. And we can all right, dip in and out. It's not about going, going, going and forcing yourself it's about opportunity. And making sure that you're that you're really getting FaceTime. Ron Bockstahler  7:03  So let me kind of bring up a whole nother point. So let's kind of look bank into do we come back to the office? Do we stay out of the office is a mix? Yeah, where do you see it going? McKenna Prohov  7:14  Well, I think I guess I'm gonna take the easy way out by saying, you know, I think that I think that options are cheap, because here's the thing I, what I'm talking about when when, when the thing that happens, and I don't, I haven't heard of a real succinct, you know, I'm not a scientist, I haven't heard, I'm sure there exist, I haven't heard a real great way of saying, you know, talking about what that process is, I just know that it happens, we all know, you know, we experienced that when we talk to each other in person, when we meet up, it's hard to put words, you know, on that phenomenon, but, but because of that, it is important for people who work together to see each other, you know, in person. And I think that employers do have a real valid concern, or vested interest in having their employees work, right, in a space because of that, because, you know, employers know that, at the same time, I think that in some ways that that can be, that's also not entirely how it works, because there's a lot of power in choice. Think that the opportunity for a team, for example, to do what they need to do, or to have that experience should maybe be more productive, because they're meeting together doesn't necessarily have to be because an employer told them that it was going to take place in a certain, you know, very expensive location, you know, somewhere, that team can absolutely accomplish that in a lot of different ways. And so I think just expanding the way we think about people meeting, because, you know, I'm not we're not doing it, I don't really believe in everyone working in isolation in their home, behind a computer solely, but but neither do I think that they need to be required to work in an office space for as many logging as many hours there, as has traditionally been done. And in fact, I think that that can start to cut against the productivity that I'm talking about where we're together, you know, in some ways people might check out in that situation, right, and they're not as effective. So I think, and I don't know if you agree, but I think the conversation is already there about something in between, right? People are like, Oh, well, maybe, yeah, let's meet up but maybe not in the same way. That's the word. Ron Bockstahler  9:36  Do you think this is going to be generational? Is it going to be different between different generations? McKenna Prohov  9:42  I don't know. You know, I could see it but but in my personal experience, normally I would say yes, because I think there's a big difference between like this generation and just the one before it, but in the working from home. I've heard a lot me personally of people from both generations say that they enjoyed it. So I don't know that the pressure to gather in office again, the same way pre pandemic, it will be coming from the generation that had the longer experience, right having to be they're having to work in an office X amount of hours per week, you know, show up. I actually don't see that. I just feel like they wouldn't even really be surprised anymore. They're almost like, okay, yeah, this is the thing now, like, what this is the way it's going, this is the conversation. Ron Bockstahler  10:35  I love what you're saying, because I'm seeing the same thing. I'm seeing what I'm going to call the 50 and older generations, right, that have embraced, enjoying kinda not coming in. And it really surprised me. I mean, look, I'm a traditionalist, I came into the office every day, and I'm in that 50 and older category. But honestly, I'm looking at it going, I kind of enjoy working from home spending more time with my family. Yeah. But like you said, I do like coming in occasionally, and going to the events and doing things of that nature. But I'm finding some of the people younger than me, are coming in even more, because maybe they're isolated at home. McKenna Prohov  11:14  Yes. Yeah. You know, we're such individuals, I think we need to remember that every every single person is an individual, you know, experiencing different things. And I think you're right, that's absolutely a factor. I mean, some people for some people living alone, I think having to be home only to work was was incredibly difficult. And so I think that there needs to be right. Yes, space, like the opportunity to gather to come in, for sure. But maybe not the requirement. And maybe that's the difference. And I you know, Ron Bockstahler  11:53  we've mentioned mental health, or we didn't, I think you might have wrote something about it. And I was reading that, and I'm thinking to myself, let's chat about mental health and how it's affected the lawyers, the younger generation, you people younger than me, the attorneys that are younger than me, and how, how their mental health is the state of their mental health coming out of this pandemic? And what do we need to do to improve that? Because, you know, we've already had major issues in the legal industry. Yep. in mental health, and for years ignored it. Yes. So, you know, give me your thoughts on mental health? McKenna Prohov  12:23  Well, I think it's just what you said, first of all, it's been, sadly, lawyers have been so adversely impacted by poor mental health. And I was talking to a business coach recently about this, who is a practicing lawyer as well, and said, You know, I don't think it has to be that way, though, doesn't in terms of how we can do better by not ignoring it, and being, you know, creating resources for, for attorneys. So that that is totally, you know, has nothing to do with a pandemic, and needs to be right in practice and in place, in any time. But, you know, anyone who I think was, so say, you're a lawyer, and you was adversely, you know, impacting your mental health, pre pandemic, it probably was exacerbated, you know, during the pandemic, and your question, what do we need to do? Now? I think that's such a good question. But I kind of think it's the same thing that I hope was happening a little bit before the pandemic, which is, you know, for example, bar associations, bringing this to light and, and being, you know, something like a bar association being kind of a leader. In that way, for lawyers writer or somewhere where lawyers can connect or being kind of someone that even if you're not a member, every lawyer is aware of their state bar, such you know, Association, those associations are also responsible for, like continuing legal education credit. So if you only engage with your association, for that reason, you probably every lawyer has, you know, has some kind of contact with their Bar Association. So those are real good places to start. You know, having talks about it, webinars or in person meetings, or seeing what they can do to, right, engage with professionals, like therapists to come and talk about these things, and to say, hey, if you are wondering where some resources are, for these kinds of things, if you're experiencing something, here they are, and I've been encouraged, I'm actually attending a conference for for lawyers and mental health through my State Bar Association in Illinois in the fall. And so, you know, just that and I'm just one person and it's, you know, this is an anecdote, but it's, but to me that, you know, I'm encouraged by that. And so I just think we need to do to do more and, and we can all do our part. I mean, I you know, I just as an individual, I can write about this right, somebody might read it, just to know that we're all thinking and talking about it, I think, you know, helps people to feel more connected less alone. And to instead of like suppressing what they might be going through to say, you know what, it's not like I even have to tell anyone, but like, maybe for me, I should reach out to someone to address this, and I need some help, you know, and I can talk to a mental health professional Ron Bockstahler  15:22  pandemic, has it been a catalyst to make changes in the legal industry, which is notoriously slow to change? McKenna Prohov  15:30  Yeah, I think so. I think that it has, you know, brought to light, that there's been a reckoning on that level, maybe with what it means to just be a person. And to experience, you know, that it matters, what you experienced on a on a day to day that you might have been able to think up, you know, more about what, what your values are. Think about new ways of doing things. So if you were in a traditional, I guess what I would call a traditional legal practice environment with, you know, high billables, or six minute increment, you know, billables, two examples of things that lead to, you know, high stress, or maybe just, you know, hopefully not, but maybe worked with someone, you know, coming from a different place or mentality who was a little bit of a toxic employer who was less of a mentor and someone who employed you, but you know, really was because they have a vested interest, right, and making money and I get it, but really squeezing you as a person and kind of right, causing that stress. And I think that you're right, the legal profession has been slow to change. But like with so many things, I do think that the pandemic has been a catalyst for looking at those things, which aren't necessarily specific to law and lawyers, but have been very entrenched in the legal world. And, you know, I just from my own standpoint, I can tell you conversations with, you know, my peers, whether they're with a firm or they're on their own, just the fact that they are, you know, they're placing a high value, they're placing a premium on the way that they feel now, and I mean, that in a good way, I don't mean that they walk into a place of employment and expect that place to make them feel good. You know, it's, it's not like that, what I mean is that it's more of a self, you know, self awareness in a good way, what what do I want to need? How can I change this, I can continue to be a lawyer, but you know, to do it in a way that is better for me as an individual, or just to, you know, feel much more confident and comfortable walking out of the situation that doesn't work and saying, you know, what, I have skills, and I have something to offer. And if I go to work every day, and I'm, you know, I'm being treated badly, I am going to leave. So those are the kinds of things. Yeah, let's Ron Bockstahler  17:53  let's bounce around a little bit. It seems like that's what we're doing today. Let's talk about women in law. Because what you said, This made me think of, alright, it's a bad situation, I should leave. But that's not historically what's happened. Right? When this is over? Do we have short memories? And we go back to the way it used to be? McKenna Prohov  18:11  I don't think so. I think that that's what the prerogative of every generation to learn and grow and do it differently. That's what it means to be a different generation, you know, things move in different directions. And I think it is, and it and it, and that that won't go away. And, you know, I think that, me personally, I think that it's better than ever for women in law. I'm inspired by my peers, my female peers in law, I don't see women. You know, as far as the big firms, I'm not, you know, I haven't worked in one. And I don't know, if women are leaving at the same rate, I'm not sure that those numbers have changed much. So traditionally, in those environments, what they have found is that while they start with a, you know, a 50/51, to five to seven year, you know, associate class, that number drops significantly, there are, you know, way fewer females at the partner equity partner level. I can't speak to that I haven't, like I said, Never been employed by big law. But for all the rest of it, for all the other firms, and there are so many, it's not just big law, I see women thriving. And I think that that has a lot to do with with community and cultural support behind, right that lawyers are people to just like everyone, everyone is a person no matter what you're doing. So when you start thinking about it in terms of that you can really start to make the experience better. Ron Bockstahler  19:48  So start shaming big law firms when they continue to have a ceiling on the income of women. McKenna Prohov  19:54  Yeah, I think you know, it's so I went to a conference. This statistic I just, I just quoted to you went to a conference that was relatively recently. I mean, I think within the last five years where they said look like here's where big loss failing is that women, you know, at the at the higher levels are leaving, and it's and it's just men and there aren't as many partners or Equity Partners. I think that's still true. That's why I say I just, you know, I went there relatively recently within the last like, few years. And so I don't think it's changed in a few years. And I do think that that's something that, that we can criticize, they really need to look at that. And look at why and what they can do to so that that, you know, isn't the case anymore. It's just not, it's just seems so outdated to me to have that kind of phenomenon occurring. Where you get to any level and you see kind of one type of person in a leadership position. There's reason not good. Ron Bockstahler  20:54  You, we could talk marketing and websites and photos that we see in the majority of law firms. And it's, let's face it, it's a white group of white guys. Right, and they're in very nice suits. And that's the, that's the lead. That's what you go to the websites that you see on a billboard, it's still pretty prevalent. That's what everyone's seen. And then I think it's time to change that. McKenna Prohov  21:18  Yeah, I do, too. I absolutely do, too. And I think the first step is awareness. And like, like this podcast, I mean, this is just, it helps with that. And also, right, just that we're talking about it in other spaces and other legal spaces to at, you know, bar association meetings, things like that. Because the first, the very first steps changing any problem is being aware of it. Ron Bockstahler  21:41  Yeah, I think it's 100%. Right? I think it's very people are, it's on top, it's on my mind, right. And I'm an old white guy. So it's got to be on so many other people's minds. Also, at least, that's how I'm looking at it. So hopefully, we'll continue to talk about it. Let's go back to about your firm a little bit. And let's kind of let's let our listeners know the things that you can do for their potential their friends, their clients that they can't do for them. McKenna Prohov  22:03  Yeah, I really, I see myself as a trusted business advisor I love. I'm very business oriented and love helping my clients, you know, strategize and think about, I can bring the legal lens perspective on building, you know, a business and growing it in a good way. So, for example, I'm constantly finding that my conversations are dipping in and out of business decisions, and something that is just illegal trademark is a really good example. You know, when I'm talking, I can advise on what makes a strong mark, or a weak mark, but then that kind of leads into the conversation of, well, how do you build a strong mark, you know, that's something that as a business owner, you could be like, be sitting around the round table with your team, you know, talking about a lawyer wouldn't have to be there. But when it comes to protecting, then it's like, oh, you call your lawyer, and your lawyer says, Oh, well, wait a minute, you know, I have some, I have to tell you about this. So you can't just create anything, I have to tell you about what would be right, able to be protected or not. So something I really liked doing is really making a connection with my clients, getting to know them, you know, listening a lot about what they want to do, and just being willing to spend the time to help them or to get to know them to figure out, you know, their particular issue. And I always say, you know, I can give you the legal, the legal side of it. But I will also talk to you about, you know, the, sort of the larger, you know, issue going on, and I love to do that. And that's why I love being in the startup space. And it's just, it's been a really good fit. I often tell my clients, you know, I'm starting up alongside with you. So I can relate, you know, it's, I'm yeah, I'm, you know, growing, trying to grow, and I don't mean grow by like, expand by get employees, you know, a ton of employees, but I mean, grow my practice to keep going to keep working with people like you I say, I'm doing that. And that's those are the same feelings and the things going on there are the same for you if you're trying to grow. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, like a new, you know, nail salon or something like that. So it's really, Ron Bockstahler  24:09  what about alternative fee arrangements? Do you work with the clients on alternative fee? Are is everything billable hour? I mean, McKenna Prohov  24:16  I am all alternative? I am so flexible. And something I've been thinking about recently, Ron, too, is I think that there is a shift and needs to be maybe to think about lawyers. So I'm going to speak to lawyers a little bit more now. By saying, you know, maybe think about what you know, versus the time that you're spending on something and I like, you know, I don't have all the answers. I don't think that there's one way to say okay, you know, I'm gonna charge like this and never change it. But I really do think that lawyers bring tremendous value, you know, to their clients. And really what you want to get paid for is what you know. And so when you start thinking that or thinking that way, then you know that there are a lot Different ways to do it, and I, I'm flexible, I never want to lose business. So I want my clients to know that I will work for them. So I do have an hourly rate. But I have worked flat fees, and I've done service caps as well. Ron Bockstahler  25:14  Okay. One thing is, you know, as an entrepreneur, and having started a few companies, I always think, man, I would love to have the attorney in those early meetings. So we're strategizing. And they understand where we're coming from. And then when we got to put this into paper, you know, it's easier, and they understand the flavor of what we're trying to accomplish. But I don't want to pay that hourly fee. Right, in that that I think holds back so many afternoons to say, hey, let me bring the attorney and when I should bring him in? Because I frankly, I can't I can't afford it. McKenna Prohov  25:41  Yeah, exactly. I think you're exactly right. And I never I don't want people to think like that. And I think that that's why I mean, I've never just told a client, this is my hourly rate. And that's it. I've literally have never done that. I let them know. I like I said, I do have one. And there are instances when I might just be keeping track of my time depending on what the service is or the work. But I let them know that and everything else is. You know, like you said an alternative situation, I think that that would be the very best for business owners. And for someone starting up is to say, yeah, call the attorney, like they're going to be part of our business team. You know, they're not some like stuffies, sterile, like person to deal with at arm's length that I have to, you know, deal with my business, they should very much be sort of part of the team. Ron Bockstahler  26:31  Yeah, absolutely. Let me let's kind of break it down. Our last final question. I always like to ask guests, and then I'll give you know, if anything you want to add would be what's the one thing you want to see changed in the business of law going forward? McKenna Prohov  26:45  The sooner that clients, the sooner that the business community thinks of lawyers as a trusted business adviser, who, you know, is a key ingredient, in growing their business in a good way, the better and your podcasts is helping with that. Awesome, anything you want to add for our listeners before we have to go? Just that it's been really enjoyable. And then you know, I probably should do this podcast today with you. And I probably made this clear. But in case I didn't I love talking to and meeting new people. So you know, I am available and it would love to have any kind of meeting with anyone so they pick it back. I'm Ron Bockstahler  27:35  not ready to go yet. I got one other question. It was curious question. And I know you're you're kind of focused on creatives. And in the entrepreneur world, you do some marketing on Instagram, which I think is unique to a lot of law firms. Is there a reason you chose Instagram? Is it just your clientele you feel around that? That medium? McKenna Prohov  27:54  Yes, it's both. I do you know, a lot of artists have an accounts. And but really, that kind of goes into you know, what the real answer is, is that Instagram is the most heavily used platform out there right now. And so if you're going to do if you're going to engage with one social media platform, I would say it should be Instagram and in fact through private messaging on Instagram I have engaged with clients so I would recommend it and and that was me choosing Instagram was was through my research on on finding out what people are on the most.   Ron Bockstahler  28:30  Wow, that's interesting. Well McKenna thanks for joining us. We've been listening to talking to you and mechanic pro hope you can reach mckennitt law by design. That's www law ex design calm. Hello, thanks so much for joining us today really appreciate having on the show and wish you all luck in the future. McKenna Prohov  28:48  Thanks so much, Ron. been a pleasure.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai 

Corinne Cantwell Heggie is a Principal at Wochner Law Firm LLC and she specializes in estate planning. She advocates to protect your property, regardless of your marital status, your age, your income level or your tax bracket. Corinne gave a general overview of estate planning on why it's important and who it is for. They also talked about the benefits of joining a Bar association and how it can help you sharpen your skills and build your network.She also talked about simple tech that really makes serving clients more convenient and safer in the pandemic and what kind of technological advances will lawyers need moving forward in order to connect with clients and partners better.  Timestamps:An overview of estate planning and how you can protect your assets (6:06)Infusing technology in the estate planning practice (11:20)Why powers of attorney, health care and property, and having your own living will is important 16:20)The benefits of joining a Bar Association as an attorney(19:45)Breaking the glass ceiling as a young lawyer (32:54) Quote:“No one's going to care as much about you and your career as you are”“You have to build up the ability to be like a legal ninja. But at the same time, you got to stick up your hand and ask for opportunities”“What is the worst someone's going to say? ‘No'? That's fine, ‘no' is just ‘no' for right now. It's not ‘no' forever.” -Corinne Cantwell Heggie Corinne Cantwell HeggieWebsite: https://www.wochnerlawfirm.com/corinne-heggieLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinne-cantwell-heggie-04b27b16a/ Corinne Cantwell Heggie, Principal at Wochner Law Firm LLCEstate Planning Corinne is an attorney in Wochner Law Firm LLC who specializes in estate planning. She prepares wills, trusts, powers of attorney and other planning documents and assists with estate and trust administration. She counsels and drafts corporate documents on behalf of her clients in order to protect them from asset loss and court battles. Corinne has practiced as a BigLaw partner and counsel at Chicago's largest majority women-owned law firm. She is licensed in Illinois and Missouri and can appear before the United States Supreme Court and federal courts located throughout the midwest. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinne-cantwell-heggie-04b27b16a/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcript:Ron Bockstahler  0:29  Welcome to the show. I'm your co host Ron box seller.Kirsten Mayfield  0:31  And I'm Kirsten Mayfield and we have with us today Corinne Cantwell Heggie she's principal with Walker law firm. She's been an attorney for 20 years, and she's one of those powerful women in law. We love talking to you on this podcast. In 2020, Chicago lawyer at Chicago daily law bulletin had its inaugural class of the 50 salute women in law. crin was one of those named before woessner, she worked in big law and she was counsel at the largest majority female in law firm in Chicago, which is very cool. She was also the immediate past president of the woman's Bar Association of Illinois. But I would be remiss not to also speak about what she does, as an attorney and she specializes in estate planning. She's an advocate to protect your property, regardless of your marital status, your age, your income level, your tax bracket, which is a great and worthy cause I've known so many people who have not been able to grieve properly because they were suddenly mistake planning. And that's insane to me. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  1:33  Well, Kirsten, thanks for that introduction. Thanks for having me. And Ron. Also, thanks to you for having me.Kirsten Mayfield  1:38  Now, I have to say you've got a very important other role you are the merit badge counselor for your boy scout troop, troop 156. Shout out to everybody that I'm sure the boys are all going to listen to this. So what are some of your favorite merit badges?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  1:55  Yes, um, well, I have a few my love all the citizenship in the nation in your community badges just because it really allows the young man because we only have men in our in our troop right now, to get out into their community and see how it works, who's behind it, learn about the village, how it runs. I also like the merit badges that speak to things that I really kind of like to do, I can one comes to mind is the art merit badge, which is really great. And you can do it virtually, which has been a plus, with a lot of the museums, giving access to certain exhibits or resonant exhibits that they have online.Kirsten Mayfield  2:36  That's so cool. You know, I okay, so I went to film on I love Boy Scouts, my little brothers both by Boy Scouts, my oldest little brother gotten his Eagle Scout, just tons of fun. But, uh, you know, I didn't think about how being in Boy Scouts and having these virtual opportunities during the pandemic, that's so lovely, and wonderful. And something that's like, if you're a parent, you're dealing with trying to get them to school and all this having the ability to do these extracurriculars. Virtually that's, that was probably like really good for those those kids.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  3:10  Yeah, I agree. Carson has kind of been a game changer was really last spring, when at least are part of our sliver of the world was really locked down. It gave something for our household, because I have two scouts to do and kind of, I don't want to say pass the time, but collectively work towards something that didn't relate to getting the schoolwork turned in, and the tests submitted. So it was definitely a silver lining and was wonderful that we were able to find ways to continue to move forward with the merit badges and go through the coursework in a virtual setting. And thanks to the museums, for instance, with respect to the art merit badge, and then you know the citizenship series of badges with the people who helped make our government local and state and federal Ron,Kirsten Mayfield  4:04  you almost sound like Leslie Knope with Parks and Rec with the community merit badgeCorinne Cantwell Heggie  4:09  too. I love that. People, I just think it's so important to understand how your community works. And, you know, the boys aren't paying taxes, but why there's this infrastructure. And then it always culminates when you're talking with me with the fact that we live in a democracy, that we are so privileged to have a vote and that you've got a vote. Got to do it.Kirsten Mayfield  4:33  Yeah. It's good, good skills to to embody people wentRon Bockstahler  4:38  well, I'm glad there was good scout activity going on during the lockdowns that we had going on.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  4:44  has a lot of great adults who give a lot of time and energy and guidance to these young men. And I mean, I'll just say it again. It was really nice, at least in our house to have something to work towards together. That was Fine, you were learning something but you didn't really know you were doing it and wasn't relatedRon Bockstahler  5:05  to, to school. Though I would say this past winter is the first time in at least four years that I haven't been out there polar bear camping trying to get those badges for the boys. SoCorinne Cantwell Heggie  5:16  Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you don't even need a polar bear camp. I mean, I have two of my my guys are going camping this weekend. And ironically, we're talking about it last night at dinner. My middle guy said, you know, right before lockdown, they went to star rock, because it was a camp out weekend. And he froze his toes off, it was so cold. So you don't have to go look and fire for a polar bear experience, certainly in Illinois. What's north of 80?Ron Bockstahler  5:49  Let's jump into estate planning, having you on the show made me feel a little guilty as I haven't completed my estate planning documents, renewed estate planning documents. So talk to us about estate planning a little bit. And let's talk about how to get clients like me to actually complete the process.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  6:06  I love to talk about that, Ron. So thanks for asking. You know, I think estate planning is something that's a big behemoth, and maybe an elephant in the room for a lot of people. So when you work with our firm, we really try to make it easy and accessible for a couple of reasons. One, it's really not about your mortality, it's about your legacy. And making sure you have control of where your hard earned assets, whatever they are, get to where they need to go or where you want them to go. And to it estate planning. It's just not for high net worth, high tax bracket. People who are married, it couldn't be further from the truth. If you own property, I don't care if it's a savings account, I don't care if it's a 401k I don't care if it's a bond you received. For your first communion. There are tools for you to protect it to make sure one you can name someone to help you make decisions about that property. If you're living and you can't do it, and to where you want it to go when you're not here. So that's what we focus on at our office really helping people understand that it's, you know, kind of debunking it or flipping the script on estate planning, and trying to make it easy and accessible.Kirsten Mayfield  7:31  So in the the mode of that Ron says he hasn't gotten his stuff in order, I'm younger than him. I don't even like what is what is my property? What What do I have? Because I you know, I rent an apartment, I don't have land, I don't have a house. So to me, I don't need to get anything in order. But I do have the items you just mentioned.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  7:53  Yeah, so kearson a great tool for you would be a property power of attorney that would allow you to name someone you know, like and trust, to make decisions and help you manage that property. If you were living and you are unable to do it, that can be very powerful. There's a lot of wealth that is accumulated in deferred income plans. So 401 K's 403, B's, IRAs, SEP IRA, Sep 401, K's and even if you don't do trust planning, okay. With a power of attorney, you can name someone who can make decisions about that property about that wealth. If you're living in you can't do it yourself. I mean, that's huge. And in Illinois, that lawmakers have a form for you to follow.Kirsten Mayfield  8:51  I never thought about it, but like, let's say I was unable all of a sudden I you know, I would assume they'd say oh yeah, like husband can handle it. But that's not necessarily the case.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  9:04  Well, the law will tell you what batting order who's going to bat and when. But typically, these situations Kiersten and Ron are not like low stress, unemotional if someone is coming to have to make these decisions for you, or, or you know, you're out of commission. It's a it's a who's on first kind of situation. So with a property power of attorney, you can have that batting order set. So there's no confusion. But to your point Kiersten they might get to your husband, they might get to your parents, they might get to your adult child. But that's going to depend on how energized the person at your bank, the HR department at your employer, if it's an HR if it's an employer provided 401 K is energized to help your team how Spin family. And that means, you know, child, spouse, partner, whomever, get answers so they can get into the driver's seat.Kirsten Mayfield  10:11  Yeah. And that's the last thing anyone wants to do when they're trying to deal with their emotions and life that just drastically changed.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  10:20  Yeah, I agree. I mean, I see it, I know it. I know it. And even in situations where people have, you know, they've got their close with their siblings, or they, you know, they have a spouse. Every bank is different. And that's not bad or good. It's just a fact, every life insurance company is different, every HR department is different. Have the documents setup so that person knows where the document is. And two can say, here's the property power of attorney, here is the the representation that this person cannot make these decisions. I'm in the driver's seat, please send me anything you need for me to accept this role to put the hat on my head. But let's get rolling.Ron Bockstahler  11:03  So talk a little about how you infuse technology into your firm, because this is a personal area of law as it is for me, I mean, you know, I haven't done mine, because there's like 24 different documents, it's a little overwhelming, if I'm not sitting with my attorney in person going throughCorinne Cantwell Heggie  11:20  a grade. So we have tried to incorporate technology. And I will say we have. And for better or for worse, the pandemic helped us kind of normalize its use in terms of connecting and keeping up with clients, we are looking forward to being able to get back in person with our clients. But I think for legacy clients that have been with the firm, we brought them along, and they may have had that opportunity to talk with us and meet us in person. So it's just more getting them comfortable with. I'm still current over zoom, or I'm still Korean, over FaceTime. I'm still Korean and Google meets. And I do think where it's been something that has been normalized because of COVID. With new clients, right? New engagements, it's it might take one or two meetings, to see if we're going to be a fit for that person. And we recognize we're not a fit for everyone. But we found it to be extremely helpful and actually help us bring our clients align, not because we said hey, you've got to use technology, but because we got to be able to do this to help serve you. And we want to serve you.Ron Bockstahler  12:42  So in when we talk technology, are you using some kind of a secured? How do you share documents, I guess that's what I want to know,Corinne Cantwell Heggie  12:50  was secure was secured PDFs. I mean, we're on a cloud and our cloud is secured and backed up. So that's how we do file, you know, file management. And we do have when we're not we're not paperless, it would be great to be paperless. But our paper footprint, because we're in the cloud has greatly diminished. So with secure PDFs, and we leverage and if you know someone can't do a secure PDF, we'll do you know, we'll work with whatever platform they have. We're pretty nimble in that regard. We'll meet the we want it to be easy for the clients. So if they're using a different method, or they're comfortable with Dropbox, great, we'll go there if that's where you want to be,Ron Bockstahler  13:32  or what signatures are required in real estate planning documents.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  13:37  Yeah, so that's a great question. We were really lucky because in March of last year, Governor Pritzker signed a an emergency order to allow virtual notaries to take place, you know, there were about 10 criteria. And if you satisfy them, you were able to continue to, you know, do business with papers that require notarized signatures, that actually is that was codified and became law, which is great in July. A lot of documents they'll run still require what signatures but we leverage digital where we can, which is not, you know, it's not as many as that a closing like a real estate closing. But I still think if anyone's done a real estate closing the buyers because they're working with the lenders, most of the most of the time. They they have to be there and provide witness signatures on on, you know, two inch stack of documents, so they're not gone. Totally obsolete, but the virtual Notary has really helped kind of lower the lower the hurdle there. Yeah, I thinkRon Bockstahler  14:46  funny you mentioned buying a house we did we refight our condo, and they sent someone to our home to do all the documents, or at least they scheduled that but then at that period of time in the condos in Indiana You actually have have a witness. So they had to reschedule at his office, and we had to physically go there, which I thought was just crazy. But and I think they've since rescinded that law, you don't need a witness, but during that short period of time, how things change?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  15:17  Yeah, I mean, that's I will say, I am glad you brought up the witness piece rod. Because when people try and do it yourself, or go online and get these documents completed, you know, if you don't dot the i's and cross your T's and crossing a t would be witnesses, how many witnesses are required? What are the requirements for a witness? Right? That's where, you know, you can sign documents that might not necessarily work when you need them to.Ron Bockstahler  15:46  Let's talk about like, so we got a lot of attorneys listening. And that's one of the bigger issues where attorneys don't actually go and do their own estate planning documents don't have a living well, you know, what are the basic minimum that they at least need to have in place today, no matter what age they are?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  16:01  Right? Well, we've kind of talked about a property power of attorney which is going to allow you to name someone to handle your property via bank accounts. 401k is real estate, sign your tax return, if you're living and you cannot do it yourself. Staying in that property lane, a will is really important, even if you don't have children, because in Illinois, a will is where you will articulate or identify the guardians for your minor children. But more importantly, a will allows you to identify your property where you want it to go be at an individual individuals a charity, and when you're not here, and critically. So critically, identify an executor. And state that that executor if he or she or they have to go to court to probate an asset, they can be excused to have to pay a bond. I mean, the number three and four should probably be one and two, in the order of I mean, that is a huge, a huge way to eliminate confusion and asset depreciation, because you've got to pay the bond to get to court. And the judges often not going to excuse it, if it doesn't say in black and white, and you're well. So that's why I was important. And then I'm going to I'm going to switch into the healthcare lane not because I'm a doctor, but because you need to sign a healthcare power of attorney so you can name someone who can help your your medical team, make decisions for your medical treatment if you're living and you can't make those decisions yourself. So at the very least you need powers of attorney health care and property and a well.Ron Bockstahler  17:43  Yeah, the living will always someone to help the doctors because you don't want to put that pressure on your family members or, you know, that just a lot of stress to put on a family member lamportCorinne Cantwell Heggie  17:55  Yeah, well, well put, I can't that's it. So never easy. It's never not stressful, if someone has to make medical decisions for you.Ron Bockstahler  18:05  Let's kind of jump into you've built a great career. I guess, first of all, why did you go into this area of law?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  18:11  it's so rewarding to help people unravel a question or an issue that they have been unable to solve or haven't been able to get a practical answer to.Ron Bockstahler  18:24  Okay, did you practice in other areas? Because you were with the big firm prior to and on your way to your own firm with your husband?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  18:32  Right? Yeah, I've had the benefit and the great fortune, I think of working in a large national law firm, and then a a boutique majority women owned firm. And I've always enjoyed working with individuals. And I had along the way over my career, I've always done work with individuals, but because of the nature of where I practice, I did a lot of work with corporate legal departments. And, and in all lanes, the counseling, pre litigation, settlement and litigation. And I think that gives me an ability to see issues from a 360 degree standpoint. But I have to say from day one, it was always great to work with individuals or families or or business owners who you know, started the business or came into a business and and were able to make it soar and grow.Ron Bockstahler  19:28  In your career. you utilize you been very involved with Bar Association, your immediate past president of the woman's Bar Association of Illinois, can you let's talk about how that's helped your career. And what some attorneys that maybe aren't so involved, you know, why should they get involved? Yeah,Corinne Cantwell Heggie  19:44  I'd love to talk about the women's Bar Association of Illinois, Ron. It's an honor organization that's near and dear to my heart. I was a member when I, you know, was a newly licensed lawyer largely because of a wonderful capital partner at the first firm. That I worked at her name is Jennifer sander. She was in line to be the president of the organization. And she was always so gracious in terms of walking the floor where the associate SAT, and said, you know, the firm has a ticket for this, come join me. Come, you know, she, no pressure, if you can make it, let me know, I'll see you there. And whenever you came, she might have had 10,000 other people in the room she had to speak to. But she always was like, Chris, thank you for coming. I'm really glad you could be here. I never forgot that. I still keep in touch with Jennifer. And so that was a great impression. And, and I had the pleasure of being at the firm when she was the president of the women's Bar Association. So we got to go to a lot of events to meet a lot of really wonderful leaders, not only in the legal community, but in the in the in the larger community in Illinois.Ron Bockstahler  20:56  So it makes me think, when you first started, that's how you got in and your firm paid for. But what if you're a solo or a smaller firm? Is it worth paying for out of your pocket?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  21:08  I think it is, I think it absolutely has. And let me tell you why. Because bar associations, you know, help individual lawyers build muscles to network. And you know, if you're a solo fine yourself, or if you're a small, firm yourself in your firm, and then it creates a really natural platform for you to discuss what you do and why you love it. It's just that basic. And you know, when I say it to young lawyers or to individuals who are not sure, right, if they're going to pay out of pocket to continue, not only their membership with wb AI, but any other Bar Association, I always challenge them to think about that. That's not nothing.Kirsten Mayfield  21:55  And you also you, you said that you talk to Jennifer, and you keep in touch with her because of these personable skills, because she was a higher level person she came around she saw, like spoke to you as a human, she's looked you in the eye, she remembered you, those little micro skills. I feel like those are something you would probably be gaining from a bar association if you're not a solo attorney as well. Or if you are a solo attorney don't get those interactions.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  22:23  Absolutely. Kiersten. I mean, you're learning if you if you stick your hand up, and you and you join a Bar Association, I commend you. And I also would encourage you to join a committee or join an event committee or you know, a small group committee or go to a CLE. You're going to go there and you're going to, you know, maybe perfect your elevator pitch or learn to talk to people learn who who could be strategic partners for you. Who do you like? Who's going to be a colleague, if you just need to vent and you can't do it to a colleague at work or your you know, your significant other or your roommates? Yeah, there are so many soft skills that one can learn from joining a bar association and showing upKirsten Mayfield  23:06  showing up that's key, right. That's where people fail and think this isn't working for me.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  23:13  Yeah, I agree. I mean, absolutely. But, you know, I hear time and time again. And I remind people, because people told it to me. And my parents told us to me, no one's going to care as much about you and your career as you are.Ron Bockstahler  23:33  So youCorinne Cantwell Heggie  23:35  got to get into it, you got to lean into it, because it doesn't have to be 100% every day. But you've got to come back to that as your guiding your guiding post. And you got to lean into it, you got to stick your hand up. And you got to get comfortable. And I feel this way for particularly young women and men who are in large law firms, or mid sized law firms, you better get comfortable advocating for yourself or making asks, and I'm not saying coming out of the jump and saying I need a bigger bonus. If you don't have the hours, you know some good work done behind you mean you gotta get you got to learn your craft and you got to get your skills, you got to build up the ability to be like a legal ninja. But at the same time, you got to start sticking up your hand and asking for opportunities. What is the worst someone's going to say? No. Forget it fine. No, is just know for right now. It's not no forever.Kirsten Mayfield  24:33  Did you ever have a fear of no or was this like, yeah, here? Yeah, all the time.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  24:38  But so what? I was like, no one's gonna do this. If I don't do it. If I don't ask, no one's gonna be thinking Oh, Corrine would like to do this. I can see her at the end of this conference table. And I know she wants this opportunity.Ron Bockstahler  24:51  I think and I've been working for over 30 years, and I still have the fear no from time to time. SoCorinne Cantwell Heggie  24:57  yeah, I'm not saying like I love it. I haven't toRon Bockstahler  25:01  You mentioned committees, and I remember my first board position. And I think it was on that board for two years before I decided either get to get off the board or get involved. So I started joining committees. And it changed everything for me. I started getting involved with people differently. It was like, wow, why didn't I do this? from the get go? Yeah, raise your hand and advocate for yourself, get involved.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  25:25  But I think you raise a good point with that, Ron, I mean, you don't have to do it right away, you know, everyone's got an on ramp. And you've got to kind of get your sea legs, sea legs underneath you and kind of see what works, see if it's a fit for you. Right? If this, you know, a lot of times we join organizations, and we might not know, it's in the inner workings. But it takes a while. So give yourself grace to because this does not happen overnight.Kirsten Mayfield  25:49  So where did you like start in? Like, how did you approach it, because as a person who's more of an introvert, I could see myself joining a committee and then going to like, or going joining a bar association going to like one meeting and one thing and being like, not getting myself in there. So how did you embed yourself into this bar association? Because you obviously did it? Well, you became a president. Right?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  26:16  It's it. It was a it was a marathon, not a sprint. And that's why I say to really any lawyer, you know, you got to give yourself grace, when you're starting something new, or trying to advocate for yourself, you've got to get your voice and you got to get practice. But I was active and in more so going to events for the social piece, when I was a younger lawyer. And then candidly, you know, when I started having children, I mean, it was, um, Bar Association work went on the back burner, because there just wasn't enough time in the day for me as I saw it, and I did try to do at least one thing that was, or two things that were business development, networking every day, Monday through Friday, even through when I was, you know, expecting my children and on maternity leave. Did I hit every day? No, but I really tried to do that. So I had to take a little step back. And I have to say that if it hadn't been for my younger son, one of my younger sister, who also is a lawyer, she had just passed the bar and was just getting kind of into the Bar Association, because I had done it. And she was great. I mean, she would just show up, it was just after I had my third, my third, my third son. And she's like I saw, I'm in the lobby of your building. And john knows you're with me. So I'll see you in five minutes.Kirsten Mayfield  27:41  She set it up for you. She was just like, You're coming with me.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  27:45  So that was a great, but it didn't take I mean, she had to do it maybe two or three times. And I was like, okay, she's right. Because I do remember, at the time, working in a large, firm, and, you know, just like standing outside my office bank, waiting at the printer, and just thinking, wow, everyone here is smiling and happy. And their hair is washed andKirsten Mayfield  28:10  the little things.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  28:12  And I kind of felt a little bit isolated. Now listen, that's all me, that's all me. But it was really great to get back and be active at the women's Bar Association because I went to these events. And I was like, these are my people.Kirsten Mayfield  28:27  And you had a person in your life who knew it and she was like, driving for you. Because while you say, and it's great advice from your dad, no one's gonna advocate for you, basically, other than you. When you do build those colleagues friendships and obviously sisters, you're born best friends. Yeah, I mean, I've got an older sister. We're just Yeah, but once you build them, they do help you when you're you're not able to help yourself as much. SoCorinne Cantwell Heggie  28:53  yeah, you need a hype team. Yeah.Kirsten Mayfield  28:56  That's a great way to have it. Okay. So checklist as a young attorney, build a hype team.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  29:02  You do and I'll make you easier and I'll help you be accountable. But like in a fun, nice way. Yeah.Ron Bockstahler  29:08  Let's lead into why you are the president at the woman's Bar Association of Illinois. You are the bar celebrated 100 years of suffrage right women's rights to vote.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  29:19  That's right. We celebrated the 100th anniversary of the 19th amendments passage which gave women the rightRon Bockstahler  29:26  to vote. And what did you do? That was outstanding. I know you work with other associations or the bars. Will you talk about toot your own horn a little bit about what you did there?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  29:36  Well, so that year, we did a lot of partnering with bar associations not only at the local level, but at the national level. So we did a we celebrated the passage of the 19th amendment with a luncheon that we partnered with the black women Lawyers Association of Greater Chicago And the Illinois state bar associations, women's group. And so we jointly put on the event. It was a full house. And we were lucky enough to have two federal district court judges engaged engage in a fireside chat. During the luncheon. It was Chief Judge Rebecca pahlmeyer. And judge Sharon Johnson Coleman. So that was wonderful. That was kind of the kickoff event, not so much for the 19th amendment, but just for the solidarity for the legal community. The women's Bar Association partnered with lag back and then Alliance Bernstein to put on the first diversity and inclusion, accredited CLE in Illinois, in July of 2019, around the issue of the law, and what it says and does and what it means for our transgender colleagues, not only lawyers, but just the transgender community at large. So that was, um, we were supported by the Chicago Chamber of Commerce as well. So that was really powerful partnerships. And then finally, right before, right before lockdown, we had a spring summit for women in the law. And we partnered with the American Bar Association's Commission on women in the profession. Do you have a day long event that Chief Judge palmyre hosted at the Dirksen building, where we tackled, you know, issues that are unique to women, as they matriculate through their legal career, and I kicked off the event moderating a panel that was that included Paulette Brown, who is a powerhouse and just a wonderful lawyer and person. And she is the Chief Diversity and Inclusion officer lac Lord. And Kelly Corley, who was just retired from the position of General Counsel for division, discover financial services located in river woods. And we talk about two women who, who live every single day, not even probably thinking about it now, trying to make the legal profession better, not only for women, but for everyone who's who is practicing. And regardless of where they're practicing, be a legal department, a law firm, public interest, a government entity.Ron Bockstahler  32:36  So we only got a couple minutes left. So one thing I want to touch on and kind of get your input some of the younger attorneys listening is your How can we break the glass ceiling on women and minorities that are kind of getting started today? What can they do to maybe change the way it's been?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  32:54  I think you have to stick your hand up and ask and then grab each other's hands and move together. Because together we will go farther, and not to I don't want people young lawyers to ignore their unique characteristics that they bring to the profession. So very important. But there's so much good that can be done if you reach across the aisle and grab the hands of other people who are similarly situated, or maybe not similarly situated to advocate for each other. Okay.Kirsten Mayfield  33:31  So just one more question. Why did you go into that women owned law firm? Was it more organic? Or was it I want to be surrounded by like minded women in law?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  33:47  Yeah, that's a good question to your son. I wanted to see how law was practice in a in a in a smaller setting. And it was very organic. The one of the founding partner, Stephanie Scharf, had been introduced to me by one of the at the time Chief Diversity Officer f law firm, where I was practicing Leslie Richards, Yellin, who was a wonderful, wonderful woman, a wonderful human being, that I'm very lucky to have ever had the pleasure of calling a partner. And they had a need, and I had a curiosity, and it was a fit. In that regard. I also knew that I was going to kind of be able to take my networking and my client book building skills to another level. I was doing it collaboratively with other women to kind of hone more of an authentic voice. That's not to say that I wasn't doing it authentically. I worked with a lot of men and that was, you know, listen, I had a lot of male sponsors. A lot of male cheerleaders at my firm. I have a cheerleader and my husband. So there wasn't anything I didn't think I could do, but I didn't do a lot Business Development with other women. And so I knew there was going to be a little bit of an, I wanted to know more about that. And I knew, in addition to being able to do great legal work at a boutique firm, I would be able to probably kind of deepen that skill and hone that skill in a different way. Which proven which proved to be the case.Kirsten Mayfield  35:20  That's amazing. I, you know, you don't always think about these things. But it is very, like, it seems like if you get you started at a bar association, you started with women, you just put yourself into that world. And you said it was an organic move into something that allowed you to achieve, which is an awesome and goal working with your husband every day, being a partner with him. And I think that just it's lovely talking to people like you who are just showing the different paths, because I think when you're just trying to make it yourself, it would just seem impossible. So thank you for talking to us about it's, it's great to hear.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  35:59  Well, thank you for having me. And I just want everyone to know that I had a lot of setbacks. A lot of times it's a jungle gym, take five steps back 20 steps forward, two steps sideways, and you might fall off. But if you stay committed to putting yourself first and advocating for yourself, doing good work, learning your craft, of course, sky's the limit.Ron Bockstahler  36:24  Let's, let's kind of finish up with our last question. What's the one thing in the business of law you'd like to see change over the next five years?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  36:32  I want tech. And I know everyone who comes all your guests are saying mess. But I feel like from the estate planning world, I can say I want tech to be here to stay to help us be able to not only connect with our clients, partners, but connect with our clients. And I don't want in person to go away. But I want it to become completely normalized.Ron Bockstahler  36:56  I think we're all on board with that. Definitely want to see that happen. I know just in my life. There's some things that the pandemic has actually brought you into my life that I don't want to lose a grade that I love working. I'm in my house right now. And I got five young kids, it a lot easier to spend more time with them when I'm traveling every day of the week. So a great,Unknown Speaker  37:19  a great. Well,Ron Bockstahler  37:21  Brian, what's the best way for our listeners to get a hold of you? I know most of our business is coming 80% of our business is coming from other attorneys. So let's how do we how do they reach out to you?Corinne Cantwell Heggie  37:31  They can find me on our firm's website, which is www dot Walker law firm comm you can find me on LinkedIn at Karen Cantwell hagie Facebook at Walker law firm. And of course my direct dial 224-904-3895.Ron Bockstahler  37:50  We do remember when the two to four numbers came out. I was like I don't want to do for number. I live in Chicago. Oh, I felt old. Thanks for joining the show. It's been wonderful having you really appreciate it. And we look forward to get back on the show sometime in the future.Corinne Cantwell Heggie  38:06  Thanks, Ron. Thanks, Carson. And thanks for doing this podcast. I think it's really wonderful for the legal community.Ron Bockstahler  38:11  Thank you. Absolutely. You can listen to the 1958 lawyer and we'll see you next week.Unknown Speaker  38:18  Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you liked the show, tell a friend and please subscribe rate and review us on Apple podcast, Google Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron person, or Amata go to a modern offices.com. All the links are also available in show notes.Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Bill Cisar left his career working as an associate at a boutique firm to establish his own practice as an expert in formation of private foundations and other exempt entities, opening this option up even for small businesses or lesser established clients. In this episode, Bill talks about the importance of making legal needs available to everyone, including small businesses and individuals and the greatest benefit of making a private foundation: the potential for legacy-building and ownership. He also discusses simple but utterly helpful technological advances that the system has had that will make your career certainly less of a hassle. Listen in if you want to know all about these things, and about when and why you should recommend building a private foundation to your client.  Timestamps:Making private foundations for individuals and small businesses (1:35)Large foundations vs small foundations - the imbalance of (8:59)Benefits, limitations and the nitty-gritty of building a private foundation(14:14)New technological updates that will make lawyering more hassle-free (32:23) Quote:“...You want to have this name, recognition and purpose, to keep moving forward. And that, I have found in my practice, is the number one driver for individuals”“ So you know, the tax benefits are there, the deductions are there, which is fantastic. It's not as great as just donating off to a public charity, but I think the retainment of the control is really what entices people”“I would like to see attorney public reputation improved…we've got to find a way to be more client oriented… do a better job acting as counselors as opposed to just random suits that are there to draft the documents and send it out. ” Hubbard Street Consulting LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-cisar-680b66a1/ BILL CISAR, Owner of Hubbard Street Consulting Bill is the owner of Hubbard Street Consulting, he opened his own solo practice in 2019 and he specializes in small business matters, estate planning, contract and non-profit formation and governance. One of the cornerstones of his practice is the formation of private foundations and other exempt entities and 1023 for charitable and estate planning purposes. He has acted as second chair at Cisar & Mrofka, Ltd., held a leadership role in drafting pleadings for the defense in a civil litigation controversy involving claims of promissory estoppel, fraud, breach of contract, equitable estoppel, third party beneficiary liability, and failure to file a mechanic's lien. He has also incorporated and maintained small businesses for clients with an emphasis on limiting tax liability.The YMCA of Metro Chicago Associate Board recognizes Bill as an Associate Board Member. He participates in volunteer events and supports them in fundraising initiatives at Metro Chicago.  Get the full transcription of this episode of The 1958 Lawyer:https://otter.ai/u/v0BssPOzx1SKDiIbLq2t52xihJc Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Franklin “Frank” Ramos has written over 20 books, 400 articles and spent many years providing invaluable advice to lawyers around the country. In this episode Frank discusses some of the challenges facing young lawyers such as mental health challenges, work-life balance issues, lack of mentorship from experienced lawyers, and expectations that lawyers of color may face. Frank also gives us a glimpse into the future of law, especially as it pertains to technology. He gives advice on what to expect as law becomes more automated and impacted by remote work and how to ensure that you become a well-rounded lawyer and professional overall. Timestamps:Mentorship and suggestions for young lawyers (2:59)What does the future of law look like? (20:20)Work-life balance as a lawyer (27:13) Quote:“We've all been through this process before, if you're a lawyer, and really any professional, you start a new career and you're wondering if you're doing it properly. You're wondering what your long-term prognosis is going to be in terms of what you want to do, how you want to get there, and what your goals maybe.” Clarke SilverglateWebsite: https://www.cspalaw.com/ Frank Ramos, Clarke Silverglate Managing PartnerFrank is the Managing Partner of Clarke Silverglate, where he practices in the areas of commercial litigation, drug and medical device, products liability and catastrophic personal injury.  He is AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell and is listed in Best Lawyers in America for his defense work in product liability matters.  Frank has been with Clarke Silverglate for virtually his entire career.  He has tried to verdict personal injury, medical malpractice, product liability, and inverse condemnation cases.  As a certified mediator, Frank has resolved numerous matters through alternative dispute resolution.  Frank is an ambassador for the Firm's mission of leadership and service.  He has been President of the Florida Defense Lawyers Association and the 11th Judicial Historical Society and has served on the boards of the Federation of Defense & Corporate Counsel, Defense Research Institute, Florida International University's Alumni Association, Florida International University's Honors College, Parent to Parent of Miami, Miami-Dade Defense Bar Association, Legal Services of Greater Miami, and Florida Christian School.  He serves as a mentor to countless young lawyers and law students through his publications, social media posts, presentations, webinars, and his “coffee chats.”  Frank has written 20 books for lawyers, edited five books for lawyers,  and has written over 400 articles for lawyers and business professionals.Frank's dedication to young lawyers is exemplified through his development of a Deposition Boot Camp and Art of Marketing Program for the Federation of Defense & Corporate Counsel, an invitation-only defense organization that handpicked Frank for membership just eight years into his practice.  Frank's daily practice pointers and business tips on LinkedIn has over 55,000 followers and 5,000 friends on Facebook.In his spare time, Frank enjoys writing, reading science fiction, and listening to his two sons, David and Michael, perform classical and jazz music. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miamimentor/Website: https://www.MiamiMentor.com Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com Episode Transcription:Voiceover  0:01  So you're a lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999 It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Vox dollar and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 lawyer podcast. Ron Bockstahler  0:30  Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I'm your co host Ron Bockstahler. Kirsten Mayfield  0:33  And I'm Kirsten Mayfield and we have with us today Frank Ramos Jr. He's a partner at Clark Silverglate in Miami, Florida, where he practices in the areas of commercial litigation, catastrophic personal injury, medical malpractice and product liability. But how I know Frank and how you probably know Frank is from his short and insightful LinkedIn posts. He's got 58,000 plus followers on LinkedIn. He talks about everything from practicing law and running a law firm to really just being a human being and a leader. He's written 15 books for lawyers, edited five, and they spam topics just like his LinkedIn posts from the very practical like his SL do strategic planning manual, which he co authored with john C. Trimble to the more personal like his book, Confessions of a Latino lawyer, and thank you so much for being with us today. Frank, Frank Ramos  1:19  thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Kirsten Mayfield  1:21  Yeah, you're also into jazz, as we discussed, you've got some amazing art on the back of your wall. So in Oak Park, where I live, we usually have this awesome springtime festival. It's called jazz. Nah, we couldn't have it this year. So do you have a recommendation for a record or artist, my husband and I should check out? Frank Ramos  1:42  Well, you know, I listened to a lot of the old classical stuff, people can't watch us. But I have a record player to my right. And I have a bunch of old jazz albums. And I have, you know, some of the classes like Frank Sinatra, and I have Miles Davis and a bunch of these others. The End are some art you mentioned, that's right behind me, one of which is a picture of IRA Sullivan, who's right behind me who is actually a big Chicago jazz artist. And every year he would celebrate his birthday in Chicago, he passed away last year due to complications of cancer at 87. He was actually a member of our church, and played with both our boys who both play jazz and other types of music. But I'm a big believer in sort of the Bebop 1950s era that is so much going through a bit of a renaissance now. So yes, it is. Kirsten Mayfield  2:32  All right, great, I'm going to put links in that show notes as well to that. So people can check them out to not just me, and I appreciate it. Because I left the JASTA really sad to not have it this year, I can just talk your ear off about jazz, but into the law and the legal industry and everything. And let's start super easy. What brought you to start posting on LinkedIn, and building this network that you're building. Frank Ramos  3:00  You know, I've been on LinkedIn for a number of years, I think it got on around 2008 or nine when it was very much sort of a place where you share your resume and you did little else on the platform. And I didn't really understand the platform at the time. I know people were trying to connect on it trying to talk about their careers and their jobs and what they did. And I didn't really understand at the time, and I revisited the platform a few times until around 2016 when I just wrote a book called, he says it's handbook. It's a free book. And I was trying to promote and I thought, oh, LinkedIn are a good place. I mean, a lot of good lawyers are there. And let me try to share some of my thoughts from that book on that platform. And so I would just take little excerpts and share it. And then at some point early on, in that process around, I won't say August 2016, I decided I was going to post daily. And I committed myself to doing that. I've been doing that ever since I've posted every day, maybe with the exception or once or twice in those four or almost five years, and develop a bit of a following along the way. And my post is you're probably familiar with a very general, they're very much geared toward younger lawyers, I have two sons are 22 and 19. Neither of them are in law. They're both into music that kind of uses away because they both follow me there's a way to kind of give them nice fatherly advice. And a lot of times dads realize that their kids won't always listen to them. But sometimes you'll have other people comment in your posts. That's a really good idea. And then your son's like, Oh, well somebody else thinks is a good idea that my dad was actually had something to say to me. So a lot of my posts are basically like me talking to my son's barn, anybody else. So that's a lot of what I do on that forum. And early on in my practice. I've been practicing since 1997. Graduated from your son Manny. And around 2000 2001 I had a real bad case of imposter syndrome. I didn't think I was particularly good at what I was doing. I didn't think that's particularly effective. And I took it upon myself to start writing I started basically reducing what I thought I knew about the practice into small articles or sort of how to articles and And I've been doing that ever since on and off in some periods of my career where I haven't done much writing at all. But I want to say in the last five years or so, I've been writing a lot. And most of my books, if not all of them are pretty much how to books. They're how to take a deposition, how to try a case, how to market your practice, how to do public speaking, so on so forth. And whenever I do that, the book first and foremost is really for me, it's really for me to understand how to do that type of activity. You know, if I really want to know how to take a deposition, I started a deposition bootcamp is yes, I want to teach and lawyers but I really want to learn not only the practice from sitting down and thinking through it, but you know, talking to other lawyers did it as well. And so the process for me is really a selfish one primarily at first, and then it's an opportunity for me to then share with others what I learned through that process. And a lot of young lawyers don't have a lot of mentors, they don't have people who they can listen to or talk to, and a lot of firms don't have the resources or the time the partners are busy billion hours, and they don't really want to spend time with your lawyers. And it's very stressful. And a lot of young lawyers don't know what to say or do or how to interact or how to respond to a given situation. So I tried to, and my writing this want to give them sort of, you know, tell them to keep their chins up, and things are gonna be okay. And no matter what you do, there's ways of addressing and resolving those issues, and then also try to provide them real, practical advice. Having now done this for over five years, now, you kind of run out of things, the practical stuff to say, and a lot of that stuff is my books. So I've kind of really moved beyond that. I'll still do some of that, but a lot more of it, it's just, you know, you're gonna be okay, you know, even when it's not okay, it's gonna be okay. type of postings and, and if you want to learn, I think a Depo, almost all my books are free, go to my website, Manny, mentor, calm and find it there and look for my materials there. But I'm really trying to lend any engineer and if done, lawyers won't call me or email me, I'll usually set up a time to talk to them, usually in the evenings or the weekends when I'm not in middle of something, in a case for emotion or demo. And I found that everybody pretty much has the same question. Everybody has the same worries and concerns and fears. And that within 15 minutes, I'm I don't know, if I can solve all your problems, I can help you figure out how to address them. They're all pretty much in the same boat. We've all been through this process before, if you're a lawyer, and really any professional, I mean, you start a new career, you're wondering if you're doing it properly, you're wondering what your long term prognosis is gonna be in terms what you want to do, and how you want to get there and what your goals may be. And I think a lot of people just need someone to say, you know, look, you know, what do you want to be in 510 15 years? What are the long term larger goals? You know, what do you think you need to do to get here from here to there. Now, these are some suggestions, but you know, these certainly is not the whole number of suggestions and, and you can pursue it however you want to pursue it. And then most people, once they have an end in mind and have a pathway to get there, then they can figure it out. And so that's kind of what I've been doing on that platform for I guess, now for five years. And it's grown into quite a large tribe I get to interact with on a daily basis. Kirsten Mayfield  8:12  So you're a partner at your firm. Do you have like that sort of like leadership and role in your firm to how big is your firm? Frank Ramos  8:21  We're a small firm, there's like eight or nine of us. And you know, we've had different lawyers coming through our firm over the years. And and yeah, I think a mentoring role too. So you enter the Lord come here, and I'll sit down with them and kind of talk through whatever issues they may have, whether they're handling my cases or another attorneys cases. And you know, when people don't appreciate from the practice law is that yes, there is a certain skill set you need, and there's a certain craft to it. But there's very much a process to it. And, and what I try to do is I take every activity and I break it down into almost like a flowchart. Like, you know, these are the steps you need to follow the different A to B to C. And that should get you 90% of the way there. The other 10% is the experience and skill set and, and sort of the imagination, but a lot of what we do, I don't say it's rote, but it does have a certain process involved. And I've spent a lot of time studying what that process is I have a book, just the book of checklists. That's the one book I actually sell. It's for the ABA and it's basically every activity you do as a lawyer, whether it's an intake or talking to a witness, or taking a deposition or trying a case or even leading your firm or hiring somebody or doing an interview, basically just a list of checklists, and it goes through steps A through Z on how I do it and how I do it may not be how everybody else does it, but at least it provides a roadmap on how to achieve and I think that's true for anything we do in the practice pretty much in any career. Ron Bockstahler  9:54  Break take us back to you mentioned imposter syndrome. Is this self diagnosed Frank Ramos  10:00  It is something that's Ron Bockstahler  10:01  huge. I think a lot of us have that. And I've never actually put a title to it. But I'm thinking even of myself going, and what do I actually know? What can I do for anyone what you know? And it sounds like you took that and said, Okay, I'm going to get better at it. And you know, the old adage is the teacher makes the greatest student is what comes to mind, as I was listening to, you Frank Ramos  10:19  know, it's very point, I think each of us struggles with it at some point, especially early on in our careers. And we need some sort of ratification that we actually know what we're doing. And I did it through writing, not so much to show people I could write, but just so that I can reduce to writing what I already knew, and the process, get better at it. Because you know, you sit down, and let's say you want to argue a hearing, and say, Well, I know how do I prepare for hearing in front of a state court judge, let me these are the eight steps to come to mind. There's three more, let me think there's a little bit more, let me add those steps. Let me talk to some other people who go to hearings and get their input and suddenly have 14 steps. And now it's like, Okay, this is the 14 steps, I follow these 14 steps, I'm 90% of the way home. And that was kind of what I did. I've been doing that since 2001. And the last years I've been doing it, I've moved away from articles and done it in the form of books. But that's what I do. And I think that's pretty applicable to any career. And here, if you're in position or position or an accountant, you know, there's a process everything we do, not to sort of knock out or eliminate the creativity from it. But it really helps have that checklist I like when pilots get on, before they fly, they always go through their checklist to make sure that things will fall in sky. And it's no different for any one of us. Ron Bockstahler  11:36  So give us some ideas so that you were talking confidence, we got a lot of young attorneys that are you know, no one wants to admit it. But I think struggling with their confidence to make you know, can I do this, know what some advice you can give them or you've given to you know, if you don't want to write a book, here's other ways you can build your confidence level so that you can you know, fulfill your abilities as an attorney. Frank Ramos  11:55  No, I think public speaking is really important. And there are different ways of approaching it. Obviously, we're still in the pandemic, you really can't go out and speak that much. But there are opportunities to do it through zoom and other platforms. You know, when things return to normal, or at least the new normal, I strongly recommend that people join the local Toastmasters, it's very inexpensive things like 75 or $80 a year for membership. And it is a great way to develop and work on your public speaking, I strongly recommend people do improvisation, I took a couple improv classes a number of years ago, you know, comedy improv, and to stand in front of an audience and improvise something funny. I mean, that takes a lot of mental bandwidth. And it provided and it really gets over your nerves, I think so much of yarn lawyers that they're afraid of, you know, they're gonna say something dumb or stupid, or react to runaway? And how do I get in front of a judge or a jury or interact with a client. And so you kind of have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions repeatedly over a long period of time. And eventually you overcome that. I mean, there's a point where I was just scared to death of public speaking, just getting in front of an audience and even introducing myself would give me close to beating heart attack. But now, it's, I find it kind of, you know, very comfortable. And if anything I try, I try to prepare as little as possible, I try to improvise as much. And I find that more enjoyable, I don't really enjoy having the PowerPoint and kind of ticking through the PowerPoint. And, you know, give me a topic, give me, you know, let me know how long I need to go. And I got this. And I went from being a point where I was completely frightened of my own shadow in front of an audience to a point where you put me in front of a large crowd, like two seconds before and tell me what to talk about. I'll talk about it. And I'm not unique in that way that anybody can go through that process. So for people who are going through imposter syndrome, you know, figure figure out what skill sets you really need to develop public speaking, writing, client relations, you know, confidence, obviously, is a big issue, you're having a certain gravitas only in the room and find opportunities that really may not be in the in the legal field, but opportunities where you develop that skill set, so that when you're interacting with a client or dealing with opposing counsel, they realize that they're doing some of that substance, like you're not going to be just pushed over by them. Ron Bockstahler  14:07  Right, correct. And we should have talked to Frank, early on, when we started doing shows our first shows were scripted, it was the worst show you could ever imagine. And now they've gotten much better now, obviously. But yeah, taking us back on nervous we were writing everything down and having notes and wow, you just hit hit hit the nail on the head there, Frank. Frank Ramos  14:25  Yeah, I was doing a podcast for a while we did like about 100 episodes. It's not on anymore. Although you can listen to the old episodes. It's a conversation with the Defense Research Institute. And I didn't even a lot of times, I didn't really study the guests per se, I would just like my, I would do the standard intro our younger sons music was the music that would play me in and then I would tell them all, you know, in 30 seconds, tell me a little about yourself. And that was really the first time I would hear about them and make a point not to really learn about them. And then we'd spend a half hour talking, and then that was it, and then we'd shut it down and then you know, the music can play us out and that would be the end of the conversation, and people would just go crazy. Laura was like, why I need to know what questions you're asking me like, I do not know what questions I'm going to be asking you, we're going to have a conversation very much like, if I read it to you, at a cocktail party, we're going to just have a conversation. Because if I have to actually think about what I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna bore myself to death. And, and it's not going to be very pleasant, you know, I know how to have a conversation, I said, you know how to have a conversation, let's just have a conversation. And that's kind of how those those went. So I think there's something about just being in the moment, and just being able to do that. And that takes time and practice, obviously, I'm sure my first few interviews probably weren't that great. But, you know, by the time we get to 50, or 60, it's kind of second, nature becomes a bit rude. And I think that's true forgotten lawyers, you know, that first hearing you argue that first deposition, you take, that first client interactions can be rough. And it just it is what it is, you know, it's like, I've written over 400 articles, but first 100 articles, price sucks, you know, there's just no getting away from that. You know, I don't even keep them I've got I don't keep my old articles, I would, I would hate to even read them at this point. But it's a process, you have to go through the process, you have to suck at first, if the suck for sometimes a very long time. And then eventually you get good at it, and the passions that drive you forward. And at some point, you have to do something that you really enjoy and you love. And you have to make this a distinguishing factor between is it is fear, hold me back, or am I just not good at this, if you're not really good at that, maybe you're not, you shouldn't be pursuing it. But if it's the fear factor, then you really owe it to yourself to try to get past that fear factor. Because now again, I speak all the time, it's out to let fear get the best of me, I wouldn't be speaking at all. And but if but if I gotten past the fear and realize, well, I'm not really that good at this, then it's like, Alright, well, now I'll do something else. Ron Bockstahler  16:45  Let's be a good person, Kirsten Mayfield  16:47  I was just gonna say it kind of felt like you hit the nail on the head earlier, when you said like attorneys, they want to know the questions. It's an area where people are used to being prepared and preparing. So I feel like the hill decline with the attorney community is probably a lot steeper than, say, your artistic sons reading your LinkedIn posts. Frank Ramos  17:09  It is it's, it's a little odd, because what I'm doing is kind of unusual. I'm kind of the Tony Robbins of lawyers basically, on LinkedIn, that really wasn't what I wanted to do that really wasn't like, I came up one morning and said, Oh, I'm going to be you know, Les Brown for lawyers, you know, that just wasn't my idea. But it kind of worked out that way. And I'll get a lot of times I'll get calls and emails from people I've never even spoken or discussed anything with, and they're very grateful for what I've posted. And you know, it's, it's, it's reassuring, it's nice, but I don't really do it for that way. You know, there's, there's, if I can get somebody to if somebody is in a bad situation, either emotionally or at work or something, and they read something that I said, that helps them, but I feel I accomplished something. And if I never hear from them, that's fine. I'm not really looking to get them to affirm what I'm doing. Because often what we say what we do has certain ripples effects that we don't even appreciate. And maybe years down the road, we hear like so and so say, Oh, you know, you wrote something, or you said something for your podcast, they know, you know, I heard your podcast and such and such topic that really altered the trajectory of my career, my life. And I'm sure it's part of the reason why you guys do this. You know, we all work, we all pay the bills, we all have to put in the time. But if that's all we did, it'd be kind of a very menial existence and not being able to transcend that and say and do something that goes above and beyond that, you know, that's kind of nuts. That's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's what we all try to do and try to achieve. Ron Bockstahler  18:39  Right? You have a unique perspective, as an attorney, what are some of your passions? What are the things that really excite you, Frank Ramos  18:46  you know, I love to write, I'm actually working on a novel now. It's, the reason I'm laughing is that whenever you write a novel, you try to find a genre that's going to fit into it, if it's if it's a brand new genre that you created, you're not going to find anybody to pick it up. And I'm writing a legal thriller slash science fiction novel. And there are actually a few people in that space, but they're very few. And there really isn't much of a demand for that type of book, but I'm doing it anyway. But I really enjoy it. It's it's set some time future. It's basically a time where lawyers are being pushed out and trying to be replaced with androids. And the protagonist has been asked by a corporate client to be set to have his trial second, chaired by a new Android and he kind of to go through with it and, and there's just a big backstory to it and everything else. And the thing was science fiction is that it really kind of talks about who we are as people and where we're going and talks about much larger issues about you know, what's man and what's humanity and, you know, what makes us different than our creators and, and so on, so forth. So, I like big ideas. You know, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you can get that sense. And I love talking to people who like big ideas, and if I get in a room with people and we're we're Talking about some you know about the future, the practice or about, you know, the future of work, you know, that's that's a remote want to be in Ron Bockstahler  20:08  there that kind of ties right into I mean, maybe it's not that much science fiction anymore with artificial intelligence replacing your Android and in the concept things are changing, you know, what's the future of law look like? Frank Ramos  20:20  That's a great question. I do think that more and more of what we do is gonna be picked up by AI. And I think the first step you'll see is a lot of people outsourcing work to other countries like India and elsewhere, where the hourly rate is much less, and they have very high standards reputation. And that's been the scene now where legal assistants, even paralegals are from India, or from the east or from Latin America. And they're paying them a fraction of what they would pay an American employee. And I think the next step is like, Well, why do we have to pay anybody at all? Can't we just get some artificial intelligence to draft this contract or interact with this line or draft this motion? You know, you see, startups where you tell them an idea for motion, and they're trying to figure out how to draft the motion for you? And are we gonna get the point where we are having, you know, trials being done by androids? Maybe I don't know, like, you know, the idea of that we 20 years ago, sounded preposterous, and now, it doesn't. Now, it seems like, you know, it's within our grasp. And and where does that leave humanity? You know, are we gonna be in a post work world where 90% of the jobs are done by machines? And we have nothing to do? And, you know, and how do we support ourselves? And how does society support itself. And so I think the law has somehow managed to sort of push that off. But I think due to COVID, and other things, for all realize, and technology is very much part of what we do. And part of our practice our clients realizing that a lot of stuff we thought we had to do in person we can do remotely. And I think the step after that, or maybe two steps further down the road is, well, do we really need to at all do or at least do we need you for many of the tasks we thought we need before? You know, is there a Legal Zoom? Where we can just basically type stuff up and print out, you know, going beyond just a simple will or simple incorporation? You know, can can we draft a contract from whole cloth without you? And there are people out there trying to figure that out? They're trying to be there, there's a whole industry trying to make this obsolete? And, you know, more power to you know, yeah, that's, that's not really my debate, per se, it is what it is. And I think lawyers for so much, so long have been fine. get in the way of technology, and technology is coming whether you want to or not. And you have to figure out where you fit in, as opposed to trying to prevent it from happening. Yeah. Ron Bockstahler  22:47  How can you work alongside technology, I think is where you need to be thinking. Frank Ramos  22:50  Yeah, absolutely. Kirsten Mayfield  22:51  Yeah, I'm gonna take a more optimistic point of view on this, because I think and I hope that what will happen is it just frees up more time for attorneys to bring the actual change they want to in the world, they can focus on those things that they're passionate about, and maybe you know, impact the law. Because we've got robots doing the grunt work and the boring work, we can have more passionate and bright ideas take the center stage. Frank Ramos  23:17  I agree with that. Ron Bockstahler  23:18  I think you got to break this down even further to b2c and b2b. So if you're a family lawyer, I think that leads more towards the emotional side, where you're going to want to be with someone that can walk you through and keep you calm and in control. versus if you're an attorney, big attorney for Microsoft, it's going to be more AI is going to be taken over a lot, a lot of work to be done. So I think you got to look at what area you're practicing it. And then take it step by step as to how you can fit in and apply technology to assist your firm. Unknown Speaker  23:49  But you Kirsten Mayfield  23:50  can't apply technology without knowing your processes and procedures. So that's where you go pick up Frank's book, and then get your robots to do the checklist. Frank Ramos  24:01  That's right. Now all comes together without appreciating I brought up the next next age. Ron Bockstahler  24:06  Mm hmm. What's your history? So you got I think over 20 books you've written, you got one that really stands out as you love. That's what I really like. Frank Ramos  24:15  Yeah, there's a book I wrote. And I forgot when I wrote it, to be honest, it was called grow, motivate yourself. Stop chasing grows and do the hard work. And the purpose of that book was that we get some people asking, how can you motivate making you inspire me? And I realized that people are asking the wrong question that if I have to motivate you, then I'm motivating you to do something you don't really want to do. And so if you figured out what you want to do, you don't need a whole lot of external motivation. That's going to be your internal motivation, pushing you forward to achieve those goals. And so the point of the book, which is directed to the lawyers, but really is for anyone is identifying where your talents and your passions and your dreams intersect, because you can find in that Venn diagram, draw three circles and draw a circle with your passions. One with your talents and one with your dreams. And find that sort of inner point of intersection. That's really where your purposes, you know, that's where you know, your mission is whatever word you want to use your destiny. But that's where you're supposed to be. I don't think it is a coincidence that any of us have a certain number of talents. And I think we're supposed to develop and grow those. And I don't think it's a coincidence that any of us have certain passions or have certain dreams, you know, you know, a lot of us have had them since early on. And people always ask you, oh, what do you want to do when you're a kid and you're moving beyond being a baseball star, movie star, you know, we had, you know, a lot of us wanted to be lawyers, or doctors or firefighters, whatever else. And there's something to be learned from all that. And so that book, which is a free book, and again, you can go to my new mentor, comm and download it, it basically kind of walks you through, helps you figure out, you know, who you are, if you figure that out, then you can kind of get to where you are. And I think it's a scary process, because a lot of people are, you know, 1015 years of their career, and they realize why I shouldn't have done this, I really should not have done this. And I think that book is frightening to some people, because they're gonna realize, wow, I need to make a U turn here. But it's better to make a U turn later in life than not to do it at all. And sometimes what you find is that, you know, maybe it's not ideal, but you can make the best of a bad situation, or maybe you know, you're not at the right firm, you're not pursuing the right area of law. Maybe you're not, you know, maybe a certain fears are getting in your way, as I mentioned earlier. So that's why I like that book, it really has nothing to do with how to take depositions pretty much you know, how to figure out what do you do with your life? Ron Bockstahler  26:32  I think too many attorneys, they want to get into law, maybe early on there, it's holistic, and they want to help change lives, be at 72% of Americans can't afford legal representation. So then it comes down to money. Right? I think so many of us are maybe not intentionally driven, but at the end of the day, driven by finances that oftentimes can lead to negative consequences or, you know, bad decisions. Unknown Speaker  26:56  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's Ron Bockstahler  26:57  a great book. I think that one maybe even a week, Kirsten, you and I should pick up and, and read. Let's talk about the mental health issues that are plaguing the legal industry. And maybe that kind of ties into you know, go motivate yourself. How can we address them? Frank Ramos  27:14  I think we have to do a better job acknowledging that they exist. I think we're still in our professional career, especially among litigators, where you're supposed to like, if you talk about mental health, you're seen as weak. And I think there's been a lot of progress made in those parts, you see a lot of states requiring mental health care now, or at least promoting mental health CLE. There's a big movement toward mindfulness, there's a big movement toward acknowledging different addictions and different issues. And whether it's alcoholism or drug abuse, or whatever it might be. people deal with depression, anxiety, and, and there's a much greater awareness. And if you go to most conferences, now you'll find that there is one or two presentations on those topics, there's hotlines to call there are forums where you can meet with other people. And I think we're moving in the right direction, I still think it's fairly slow and glacial. And I think a lot of firms don't want to deal with that for a variety of reasons. One, they don't want to get spent. They don't want to, to open up that can of worms, they don't want to acknowledge those issues, the some of them feels like if they address it, it's basically go into sort of a work life balance discussion, which means that their people want to work less. And that's what's really driving the depression and the anxiety and they don't want to like have their people work less hours. So it's a tough career to deal with those issues. And every year, year after year, lawyers have the highest suicide rate, the highest divorce rate, highest rates, depression, anxiety, highest rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, and it's really uncanny. I mean, you compare our professions, anyone else's. And we're like, really, at the top of all those lists consistently, year after year, decade after decade, nothing really has changed in that regard. And so I think one is awareness. I think, you know, we have to bring more awareness to the situation to firms, as take ownership of the situation, you know, where much or last year I think firms have their new job and diversity, especially with the you know, the recent trials are going on with the police and all that. But I don't think we've done the same when it comes to mental health, and I think more has to be done to address it. Ron Bockstahler  29:12  You actually, I think you wrote about it in a blog talking about, you know, younger attorneys don't want to work, the long hours that maybe you know, someone that's been practicing law for a long time has been doing for and they're just, it's natural, right? So how are we addressing this with younger attorneys? are we holding them back? Or are they still gonna have the opportunities if they don't want they want to have a family and enjoy the life also, Frank Ramos  29:32  I think a lot of it is firm driven. You have to find firms with the right culture. Some firms have it, some don't. And I'm not here to disparage any specific firms. But these days, there's so much transparency online, that your lawyers have access to information that I never had when I graduated, you know, 2324 years ago, and there are platforms there are chat rooms, there are message boards that you will find out most likely than not about any firm and what they're really about, and listen, you know, really listen to what people are saying. There are some sour grapes, there are some people who are probably exaggerating, or maybe, you know, left under bad circumstances, but do your due diligence, you know, really look at a firm, and be willing to ask the hard questions at an interview. Even if it means you don't get the job, you know, if a firm is not there at the jobs, judging the hard questions, find out for me want to work at, you know, I mean, so you have to figure out what you want to do where you want to be, obviously, it's a two way street, you know, the firm wants to hire you Bill hours and work hard, and so forth. And you're there to, you know, help the firm achieve their mission and their vision, their values, but you also have to be, first of all, you have to know what you want to do where you want to be. And be honest with yourself, it's more than just doing a job of paying the bills, you really have to have a sense of self, and then commit to yourself to pursue it. Now, some people don't have that opportunity, that privilege, you know, people have through loans have other things. And sometimes people take jobs that they really don't want to take because the market is what the market is. But if you do have choices, and you have several interviews, you have some opportunities, really try to figure out whether the opportunity lines up with where you want to be 510 years from now. Ron Bockstahler  31:12  And it takes you back to that old adage negotiate from a position of power. So when you're out looking, make sure you're doing your research and talking to as many opportunities as you can. Frank Ramos  31:21  Yeah, it's like very similar to buying a car. Like when I bought my first car, I mean, years ago, I just there just wasn't that much information out there. And now I can go to a car dealership and say, Look, this is what you paid for it. This is what I want for it. And there's no disputing it, because it's all there. Like I mean, people who sell cars these days must be pulling their hair. They're just like, I'm sure there's some people who don't do the due diligence. But now it's just so easy to do. Ron Bockstahler  31:44  I think I was actually when I was on vacation. This past two weeks, I read an article about some states are looking to do away with the dealerships, the mandatory dealerships. And that kind of ties to that all the information to buy the cars right online, do I really need to go into a dealership and negotiate with a salesperson? I mean, Tesla, that was a big case with Tesla when they were banned from certain states. Now there's a couple other electrical manufacturing vehicle companies that are saying, Hey, we don't want to deal with the dealership. So will that change? Or will the law stop them from moving on? Right, great point. You wrote a book. I don't have it in front top my head, but it's about Latino lawyers, Confessions of a Latino lawyer. Talk to us a little bit about how we can make some more progress with, you know, Latinos, women, African Americans practicing in law. Frank Ramos  32:36  No, I think diverse lawyers have a very unique story, that if you're not diverse, or you just don't know. And the point of that book is great, it's probably my shortest book, it's almost like a lot of work, really. But it basically kind of is a summary of my life, from the prison of being Latino, grumpy Chicago, which is where I grew up, and then moving down here to Miami, and going to high school, college and law school out here then practicing law. And my experience is very unique to Angel lawyers, but it's very common to other diverse lawyers. You know, I was the first one to, I was actually the second person to a college, my family first person to our last post, I didn't have that network, I grew up in sort of an inner city. And so I didn't go to great schools. I grew up in an extended family, most everybody spoke Spanish, and we're all working class. And so, you know, right now, you know, there's this idea, there's this notion, and it's common on both African American and Hispanic lawyers, that you're kind of like your car, like the family bank, you know, like, you're like the one or two professionals in the family, if anybody needs something financially, they call you first and and, you know, in a sense of obligation, you, you help them and so, you know, whereas if you're sort of second or third generation, Anglo, that's not even an issue. Like for us, it's like, yeah, you know, we have to help, you know, I think there's just like two years ago, where we had to, like help pay for two funerals, because they couldn't afford to pay the funeral. And so those those financial obligations and smillie obligations are very different. You know, it's not uncommon to get pulled over by police when I was growing up, because I was Hispanic and what is a Ramos doing in a nice neighborhood? Especially, you know, we tend to drive older beat up more cars. And so obviously, we're some sort of a threat. And so those experiences always color like anybody else. For example, you know, any any person we go through life know, the way we were raised, the friends we had, what we watch, we listen to those our color our experiences, but the point of my book was that you have to understand if you're gonna hire diverse lawyers to really understand their stories, each of us has a story and understand how that story influences them in their decision making. And if you can't meet them halfway and really try to understand their story, they're probably not gonna stick around. I think a lot of firms actually do a pretty good job hiring lawyers, they do a pretty bad job keeping them and I think a lot of that comes down to the fact Is that? Well, we know we hire give, you know, this is how we do things, and a lot lower like what's I mean, I don't really have a point of reference, I, you know, I don't know how to deal with clients or, you know, that was really where I came up with. And, and the angle lawyers like, you know, they have family members or lawyers and, you know, their fathers and mothers are lawyers, and they get it and refers like, I don't really get it. And that's less true now. Because, you know, it's like, you know, there's more second and third generation African American and standard lawyers, but it's still very much. You know, if you see a first generation lawyer, it's much more common among diverse populations, that it is an angle of populations. So if firms want to hire people and keep them, they have to understand them. And that's true for anybody be honest. I mean, that's true for any lawyer, if you want to keep your lawyers, your paralegals your staff, figure out what motivates them and help them achieve their personal goals, separate apart whatever goals they may have for your firm, and then stick around. I mean, chances are they're a stick around. Ron Bockstahler  36:03  Great stuff. We'd like to finish off with one question, Frank, and that kind of comes down to what's the one thing you'd like to see changed in the business of law going forward? Frank Ramos  36:13  You know, I think there has to be more time focused on mentoring and developing young lawyers. And I think it's become too ad hoc. And I really believe associate training, Garn Lord training isn't that complicated. It really isn't that complicated. And more time has been spent by voluntary bar associations by law firms, by senior partners by even Junior lawyers on training and lawyers. And not just the hard skills, but the soft skills and soft skills actually more important, you know, encouraging your own lawyers to get involved in organizations to take leadership positions, encouraging young lawyers to do Toastmasters or improv, bringing young lawyers to meetings with clients, you know, getting them in situations where they're uncomfortable and moving past that, you know, helping them make decisions. Because the faster they can do that, the faster they can go out there and interact with clients, clients can smell, desperation, appliance and smell, when you're insecure client and smell when you're not on top of your game. And that is learned that it comes from experience that comes from being in sort of these hard knocks situations and moving beyond them. And the faster you can get gun lawyers and those situations where they're uncomfortable and realizing that in the world when things don't go their way. And they've learned from it, and they've learned how to interact with people. I think that's really important. And I think we're kind of losing a generation of lawyers that are not being trained in those regards. Ron Bockstahler  37:41  So I had to ask, the follow up question is, how do we do that in this remote world we're living in, especially if it continues. Frank Ramos  37:48  You know, I think remotely, I think, more time as we spent having senior lawyers kind of think through, like how they learn what they did. And then kind of conveying that and figuring out new ways of training people, you know, if you need to speak obviously, not to speak in front of a big group, but there are hundreds of opportunities to speak in zoom rooms, and lead zoom conferences and have zoom podcasts like this. So, you know, get your gun bloggers out there, push them out, where they crash and burn, maybe at first Yeah. And they'll learn from it and move on. And it's I think there's this fear, like, I can't have my landlords out there, because it made me look like idiots. Yeah, they are. And you pilot like media too. And that's just the way it is, you know, just my first few presentations were horrible. And now, I like to think I'd do it much better. And I did it because each time I did it, I learned something from the process. And so you have to try to create opportunities for landlords to go out there and stub their toe and, you know, get knocked to the ground to the canvas a few times and they get up and they realize it's not the end of the world and you're gonna be fine. They're just be just fine. Kirsten Mayfield  38:53  Yeah, I've never read a story about someone who reached success without saying I failed a ton before I got to that point. So it seems like it's a mandatory first step. Unknown Speaker  39:04  Absolutely. Alright, so Ron Bockstahler  39:06  we've been talking to Frank Ramos partner at Clark Silverglate. Real quick referrals. If you got clients that are going down to Miami or going down to Florida, something happens they can call Frank, they can reach out to you. Frank Ramos  39:19  Absolutely, yeah. And if you want to learn more about me, my websites play the best place to learn more about me is Miami, mentor, calm, you can contact me through it. And if you're a lawyer, and you want to learn more about the practice, you know, you'd have my contact information we'd set up a call. Ron Bockstahler  39:34  Right. Thanks so much for joining us today. It's been great. having you on the show and lots to learn. Definitely go check out Frank's website at Miami mentor calm and reach out to if you got any questions or if you got a potential referral form. Thanks for being on Frank. Frank Ramos  39:48  Thanks for having me. Unknown Speaker  39:49  Absolutely. Unknown Speaker  39:52  Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you liked the show, tell a friend and please subscribe rate and review us on Apple podcast. Just Google, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron person, or Amata go to a model offices.com. All the links are also available in show notes.

RM LAW GROUP https://www.rmlawfirm.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rmlawgroupllc LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rm-law-group-llc MATTHEW MCELWEE, RM Law Group LLC Founding Member Corporate LawMatthew McElwee has worked at some the largest firms in Chicago, IL (Kirkland & Ellis; Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg; and McDonald Hopkins), but entered private practice in 2020 to tailor his approach and his rates to the early-stage startups that he loves to work with.He provides legal counsel, representation and consulting on corporate transactions of all kinds, including representing companies and investors in venture capital transactions, M&A (buy- and sell-side), and acting as outside counsel to startups, founder teams and growth-stage companies.Matthew regularly advises his clients on a wide variety of corporate matters, including entity formation, contracts, employee matters and raising capital. As a founder, investor and operator of several venture stage companies, Matthew is uniquely familiar with entrepreneurship, company formation and the acquisition and management of funding for startups.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-mcelwee-8a359841/ JARED REYNOLDS, RM Law Group LLC Founding Member, Personal InjuryJared Reynolds has helped recover over twelve million dollars on behalf of clients suffering from a wide variety of catastrophic injuries. He routinely helps nursing home victims and their families receive justice for injuries suffered in a facility, including bed sores, falls and subsequent fractures, malnutrition and dehydration, as well as sexual assaults and wrongful deaths. He further helps individuals and their families who have suffered from terrible injuries as a result of motor vehicle/motorcycle/trucking incidents, premises slips, trips and falls, faulty products, construction mishaps, and medical malpractice.In the Chicago legal community Jared is a Board Member of LAGBAC, Chicago's LGBTQ+ Bar Association. He further Chairs its Mentorship Program, helping provide support and invaluable networking/professional development opportunities.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredmreynolds/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

His firm's first game-changing tech adoption was a trio of fax machines that outpaced the competition and he says AI is the next big player. But Geo Bellas – nicknamed Geo as a reference to Neo in The Matrix – hasn't been a techie simply because of the success it's brought his practice over the past forty years.He says it's also the fun of getting a “new toy.” Further proof that staying true to your passions in your legal career, and having fun, is an important aspect of long-term success.Forty years of game-changing tech and what the future holds for the legal profession:The first tech in his firm and why he adapted early (01:30)A prediction of law firms' futures (18:00)Attorneys working with purpose (32:08)Geo's advice for younger attorneys looking to build storied careers (41:05)Legal Innovation is More Than Game-Changing Tech. It is “I don't think I ever sat there and said, ‘I got to do this, I got to go get this,' I just wanted to get a toy. And, you know the old adage is he who dies with the most toys wins.”“There is a movement to have a form of artificial intelligence decide small cases to eliminate the load on the courts…. The only thing is that computers haven't learned to absorb all of the other factors…that help us make a decision. But eventually that's going to happen and computers are going to take a lot of the work off of lawyers and lawyers are gonna have to find a way to fit into that new paradigm.”“[Zoom] is creating the efficiency and lawyers are still adapting to it. I mean, I see lawyers, getting on…and there are still lawyers who sit there and have to have either their grandchildren, or somebody help them open up the Zoom window so they can participate in a webinar by Zoom. But that will change. There was a time where lawyers didn't know how to use a fax machine. But they got [it], somehow they figured that out.” GEORGE “GEO” BELLAS, An Early Adopter of Game-Changing Tech for Law FirmsChicago Business Litigation Lawyer who has used technology in litigation for over 40 years. Geo's firm serves as a trusted business advisor to business owners and has been promoting the use of technology in the practice for over 35 years.www.bellas-wachowski.comBlog: www.businessattorneychicago.com Geo's Social MediaLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/georgebellas/Facebook: www.facebook.com/george.s.bellasTwitter: www.twitter.com/GeoBellas Keep Reading About Game-Changing Tech in Law “Legal futurist Richard Susskind sees technology as a path to better justice” ABA, September 2020https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2020/youraba-september-2020/futurist-susskind-sees/“A General Approach for Predicting the Behavior of the Supreme Court of the United States” Daniel M. Katz, Michael J. Bommarito, Josh Blackman, 16 February 2017https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2463244 Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

It's our first dual-guest interview, with representatives from both areas of immigration law! Christina Coleman is a Canadian immigrant who owns her own practice and focuses on employment-based immigration while Katie Vannucci handles the family-based side as shareholder at a mid-sized Chicago firm.They've been friends since law school, and both credit support for each other and in the legal community at large for their fortitude and patience with all a career in immigration law has thrown at them: from difficulties in launching a firm to the tumultuousness in their practice area through the past couple of decades. Two immigration attorneys' journeys in this changing area of law:· The variety of paths in immigration law for attorneys (02:17)· Practicing immigration law under an unpredictable administration (14:20)· Guiding clients through unstable times with shifting rules (29:00)· What Christina Coleman & Katie Vannucci want to see changed in the business of law (53:25) The mentality of immigration attorneys, and their community:Christina: “I started doing immigration in 1998. And I think for the first five years we would have [details] on the postings on the wall. It's like where you file [a] kind of petition, it might have changed once or twice in five years…[since then changes have] definitely been on an accelerated pace….It certainly feels like it's been ramping up and ramping up.” Christina: “One thing I love about the immigration community – and I really noticed it since I went out on my own – is everybody is so collaborative, so helpful. I did corporate defense work for six years, and maybe it was the particular lane I was in at Sidley, but, wow….You couldn't just email a colleague and say: ‘Hey, have you ever had this situation? What should I do?' You know, and it's just been amazing, and I've felt so supported [in immigration law].” Katie: “I think for me one of the things that I am lucky to have – and kind of going back to the fact that we have such a great supportive community – is talking about [the challenges]….A lot of times in our weekly meetings [at Ahlgren] we go around and we just talk about what we've seen that week, and to be able to talk through it with colleagues that understand and can relate to your own feelings- just going through it and processing it….is really, really helpful.” Katie: “The biggest thing is hoping that we actually see some comprehensive immigration reform, that we finally see a way under the law that individuals [we can't help as attorneys]finally have a path to be able to do something. Because that's the problem. It's not because people don't want to legalize their situation. It's because they can't. And so I think [it isn't] until we can recognize that and we can see the humanity in this, that we can finally reach across the aisle and come up with a good bipartisan solution to actually deal with the problem, instead of keeping-on kicking the can down the road and say ‘well, we'll deal with it in another administration.' I think we really need to come to grips with the reality and actually to do something to really fix the loss.” CHRISTINA COLEMAN, EMPLOYMENT-BASED IMMIGRATION ATTORNEYAt her firm, RC Immigration Group, Christina develops and executes immigration strategies for a wide range of corporate clients in a variety of industries, including U.S. companies seeking to hire foreign workers and multinational companies transferring foreign employees and executives to the U.S. She also represents foreign investors and serves as immigration counsel to a corporate services law firm with particular emphasis in assisting European interests in the United States. In addition, Christina helps individuals achieve their immigration goals including obtaining work visas, family-based visas, and citizenship.Previously, she practiced as a litigator at Sidley Austin, where she defended companies in complex federal and state litigation, including multi-district litigation. has significant experience working with students and was an Adjunct Faculty member at the DePaul College of Law. Originally from Canada, Christina came to the U.S. in F-1 student status and naturalized in 2006.RC Immigration Group LLC: https://rcimmigrationgroup.com/Christina's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christina-coleman/ KATIE VANNUCCI, FAMILY-BASED IMMIGRATION ATTORNEYKatie is a shareholder at the Law Offices of Robert D. Ahlgren and Associates, P.C., Chicago, Illinois, practicing exclusively in immigration law. In 2015, Kathleen was recognized by AILA as a Michael Maggio Pro Bono Honoree for her dedicated efforts to promote justice and provide access to counsel, and for her proven tenacity in the fight to end family detention as part of the AILA Artesia Project. She currently serves on the Executive Board of the AILA Chicago Chapter.Katie was published in the 2016 and 2020 Edition of Illinois Adoption Law published by the Illinois Institute for Continuing Legal Education; her chapter focused Special Immigrant Juvenile Status. She also serves on Loyola University Chicago School of Law's Board of Governors and is a volunteer coach for their moot court program. Law Office of Robert D. Ahlgren and Associates: https://www.ahlgrenlaw.com/lawyer/kathleen-m-vannucci/Katie's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleen-m-vannucci-04abb97Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Bill Belmont was a trial attorney, investigative attorney, worked in law enforcement, and nearly became an FBI agent before starting his investigative firm. He jokes he founded The Belmont Group with one goal in mind: to make more money so that his wife wasn't relegated to the ‘hillbilly' lifestyle he enjoyed.Bill has considerable experience investigating civil and criminal matters in a wide range of industries including finance, fashion, entertainment and real estate. And he puts client relationships first, even over the money he claims he started this firm to earn. Jokes aside, helping people in tight situations is the real reason he started this work.Life at an investigative firm isn't all Ray Donovan. But it is fun. Why Bill enjoys the latest stage in his ever-morphing career:· “Well, like every Jewish kid on Long Island. I wanted to be a cop…” (01:22)· How team sports help attorneys conquer their jobs (13:20)· Matrimonial cases. Ray Donovan. Catfishing situations. And more. (17:05)· Life is about the way you frame it (31:48) QUOTES“I'm really a life coach when I think about it, right? My job is to motivate people to do the right thing. That's what I do. I bring motivation to people so they can see the light and avoid the more complicated aspects to [their situation].”“I always try to tell young people in the profession, both lawyers and investigators – I go back to my old law school and I try to mentor as much as I can – never chase the dollar. Chase the relationship.”“I love the legal profession. I can't stand when people talk about ‘Oh, I'm a recovering attorney.' No buddy, that's your problem. The legal profession is an amazing profession. I have friends I grew up with and who I went to law school who are doing a thousand different jobs: I'm an investigator, they're in finance, some have their own businesses. But the one thing that's great about the law is that thread runs through everything you do. There's nothing you do in life, professionally, that doesn't have some aspect of the law to it. So it's a great, great activity.” BILL BELMONT, INVESTIGATIVE ATTORNEY & FOUNDER OF THE BELMONT GROUP INVESTIGATIVE FIRMMr. Belmont has over 30 years of experience in the investigation, due diligence, and security field. In addition to having worked as a law enforcement officer and trial attorney, Mr. Belmont served as Director of Operations for the New York office of Pinkerton Consulting & Investigations.Mr. Belmont has overseen the management of hundreds of corporate investigations involving fraud, workplace misconduct, brand protection and theft of trade secrets. Additionally, he has managed hundreds of investigations for national and international law firms. Also, he has developed and implemented due diligence protocols for dozens of financial institutions to ensure the integrity of their investments. He provides clients with pre-incident consulting, including vulnerability surveys, threat assessments and crisis management plans and procedures. Furthermore, Mr. Belmont provides security consulting services to clients for personal and private events.Mr. Belmont oversees the implementation of increased security measures for many corporate clients. He serves as a member of crisis management teams, assisting with contingency plans for critical occurrences, such as terrorist attacks, natural disasters, computer network penetrations, business interruptions and incidents of workplace violence. www.thebelmontgrp.com Bill's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williambelmont/  Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

We're going to use the phrase ‘from this to that' a lot because Criminal Defense attorney Lori Levin's experience is expansive. She started as a prosecutor in the state's attorney's office and in 2009 decided to go private and open her own firm. Running a solo practice meant learning lessons about how to operate both as an attorney and a business owner.Now Lori calls her criminal defense solo work the most fulfilling stage in her career to date. Lori's amazing experiences in her career and insights from running a solo practice in Criminal Defense:From Prosecution to creating a new court in Illinois (03:49)Running a solo practice: From business acumen to mental health (20:53)State of the criminal system today (31:25)What Lori Levin wants to see changed in the business of law (38:33)Learning your worth as a solo practice attorney“I was in the planning group to help start the first felony mental health court, diversion court, in Cook County, at 26th Street – it's now spread out throughout the county and throughout the state…. It was really amazing how, the help with drugs…the people who had co-occurring disorders wound up getting on the right path and how their lives were turned around. And these were folks to 30 years ago, might have gotten locked up or the criminal justice system might have thrown them away. And now they wind up getting jobs getting help. And it really was rewarding.” “I was lucky that I was an experienced lawyer, [that] when I opened up my own practice that I knew how to practice law. So, then the issue was learning how to operate a business…. I had another experienced defense attorney pulled me aside and say ‘Lori, we're in a business and you need to bill,' and the first time that I quoted somebody what I was worth and they said yes it was refreshing.” “I've been doing this for a long time. And I think I've learned from that that I need to put a premium on my mental health. I think that when I was just prosecuting murder cases it got to me in a way that I didn't appreciate until I stopped prosecuting murder cases…. I try to make sure that I'm grounded, that I do things that will take me away from the law, at times, and I'm very lucky that I have a really good support network.” LORI LEVIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE SOLO PRACTICE ATTORNEYLori G. Levin is a forceful advocate for people facing charges in Criminal and Juvenile Court as well as those being investigated by the Department of Children and Family Servicesand/or appealing DCFS findings. After a long career in public service, Lori opened her private practice in 2009. She has successfully defended persons in Criminal and Juvenile Court as well as in DCFS administrative appeals, not only in the Circuit Court of Cook County but also in the collar counties.Lori spent many years as a prosecutor and supervisor with the Cook County State's Attorney's Office, positions that have given her substantial insight into the inner workings of the criminal justice system and valuable knowledge to shape her clients' defense tactics. The Governor of Illinois appointed Lori to be the Executive Director of the Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority, an agency dedicated to improving the Illinois criminal justice system. Today, as a Chicago and North Shore criminal defense attorney, Lori Levin passionately fights to secure justice for her clients. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/criminaldefense1/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chicagodefense Twitter: https://twitter.com/LoriLevin Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

InfoLawGroup LLP has offices across the U.S. and covers three major areas of law – advertising, privacy, and technology – but they aren't a huge firm. They are a boutique law firm and practice in a niche market, where those three practice areas overlap. Jamie explains how their niche powerhouse of firm was built and how they optimize their team's broad and specialized knowledge. Finding the ‘sweet-spot' at your boutique law firm:The intersection of 3 practice areas (01:51)Optimizing firm IP and building a forward thinking law practice (22:02)BBQ & Jamie's team “Silence of the Hams” (35:30)What Jamie Rubin wants to see changed in the business of law (43:53) The power of a boutique law firm in the modern day“Everyone in our firm, can do advertising law, and do privacy law and can do technology law, as siloed practices—some of us have a little bit more focused in one area than the other….And a lot of our clients need us to meet in the middle. The sweet-spot, everything that we do today for our clients, combines all three of those elements….It's still a niche practice, a boutique practice. But to be able to provide that advice, all three of those areas at the same time, [comes] as a real benefit to our clients.”“We spent a lot of time and energy, making a decision to use cloud based services for our system. And that was the first thing we had to do to help eliminate some overhead when it came to physical office space and fostering the ability to generally be on the road, and still work seamlessly. Because we travel a lot. I mean, this is not so much about working from home, as it is being able to work seamlessly everywhere.”“We kind of took a big firm practice and turned it into a boutique. And our firm is primarily comprised of former Big Law attorneys, plus a number of executive level associate general counsels at companies, some retailers, and so we bring a perspective…that's both Big Law trained plus in-house lawyer, to provide…down and dirty, practical advice.” JAMIE RUBIN, Partner at Boutique Law Firm InfoLawGroup LLPJamie Rubin is an advertising, technology and privacy lawyer who works with clients to bring their advertising, promotional and entertainment campaigns from concept to execution. Jamie's practice covers the spectrum of traditional and emerging advertising and entertainment issues. He works on national and digital advertising campaigns, celebrity spokesperson agreements, sweepstakes and user-generated content promotions, social networking and viral marketing matters, claim substantiation, mobile applications and beyond. Jamie is a frequent speaker and author on new media topics and is recognized as a Leader in the Field for Media & Entertainment by Chambers Partners. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/infolawgroup-llpWebsite: www.infolawgroup.com Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

The secret to law practice development? Successful attorneys are using coaches; experts like Amy who know the legal industry inside and out. From law practice partner, to legal educator, to Apochromatik, Amy can offer expertise it'd take decades to learn from books. Which is why her lawyer clients call her their ‘secret weapon.' Developing Your Law Practice with Actionable Goals:· Driving employee engagement without a traditional office setup (5:44)· Goals you can measure and where attorneys trip up (14:34)· Where do you want to end up? (21:24)· What Amy Gardner wants to see changed in the business of law (35:23) For a long-term career, take control with purpose and develop a law practice you love.“One law firm partner told us not too long ago, ‘My team needs more than just another happy hour.' And so it really is about making sure that teams have the time to spend together. And that [this time is spent] building relationships, rather than just getting things done.”“I see lawyers all the time will say things like I want to bring in more business. Well, that's a great aspiration. But that's not really a goal, right? You got to have measurements so that you know whether or not you've achieved your goal.”“The people who work for [a law firm] really want feedback, and they want mentoring….They feel like the maybe the firm will teach them how to write a brief. But that doesn't mean that they feel like they're always getting as much guidance as they want in terms of how to present arguments and things like that.” CONNECT WITH AMY GARDNER, Law Practice Development CoachAmy M. Gardner is a certified Career and Career Transitions Coach and Team Development and Leadership Consultant with Apochromatik. She coaches attorneys and other professionals one-on-one, in small group “Future in Focus” attorney masterminds, and delivers workshops for law firms and other employers.Her work draws on her unique experience as dean of students at the University of Chicago Law School and a successful career practicing law, first as a Skadden litigation associate and later as an associate and then partner at a mid-size Chicago firm. Her career and goal achievement advice has been featured in media including ABA publications, Bustle, Corporette, Glassdoor, Health, Monster, NBC, and Women's Running magazine.  Amy's LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/amygardner Apochromatik www.apochromatik.com Blog: https://www.apochromatik.com/blog LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/apochromatik Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/apochromatik Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_apochromatik/ More Law Practice Development Blogs· Leslee Cohen, “Apochromatik” The Coalition of Women's Initiatives in Law Newsletter (Winter 2020) https://storage.memberplanet.com/groups/docustore/92295d87a6f326d3a3e8a1daad9827c9f85f6b29641197a62cd4fc1d451ba902/Coalition-Newsletter---December-2020---FINAL---12-22-20.pdf· Amy M. Gardner & Keith R. Sbiral, “Goals Only Go So Far: Why Engagement Should Top Your To-Do List in 2021” The Bottom Line: The newsletter of the Illinois State Bar Association's Standing Committee on Law Office Management and Economics (Winter 2021) https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57d5ada959cc684a2334324f/t/602577826a0e1879eebd3fce/1613068162399/Law+Office+Management+and+Economics%2C+Standing+Committee+on+February+2021.pdf· “Lawyering And Parenting? Legal Support Services Help Lawyer Moms Do Both” Amata Blog (11 February, 2021) https://ablog.amatacorp.com/blog/posts/legal-support-services-lawyer-moms/  Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

She was inspired by Encyclopedia Brown and once aspired to become a prison warden, now Tracy Coenen is a revered fraud investigator and forensic accountant. Attorneys go beyond certifications when picking an investigator; Tracy proves why so many choose her. Key moments:· The 3 areas of fraud and Lifestyle Analysis (02:06)· Being the investigator for both sides of a divorce (08:38)· Picking the best forensic account or fraud investigator for your case (13:23)· Fraud and the consistent mistakes business owners make (16:55) MEMORABLE QUOTES“In many divorces, there's a lot of suspicion and a lot of negative feelings. In order to effectively use one expert, there has to be a trust level there. There has to be trust that that expert isn't in cahoots with one side…. That's sometimes a hard place to get to.”“The numbers do sort of speak to me…something I call investigative intuition…. I can go through statements and pick out certain transactions and go back to the client and say, ‘These transactions I'd like you to look at and can you tell me anything you might know about them?'....I can't tell you how many times a client comes back comes back and says, I didn't know about those transactions, but there's a couple here that are really stinky.”“People are as dumb about the money as they've always been…. All the electronic banking has made it in some ways a little bit easier to steal, because a few clicks of a button and you could transfer money out of the company's bank account to you personally. The thing is: there's going to be more documentation of that than there ever was before, if someone takes the time to dig in.”“Segregation of duties is literally just taking the money handling process and dividing it up between multiple people so that they are sort of naturally double checking each other. ‘Well, how can I possibly do it in my small company?' Very simply: have the bank statement sent to your home, Mr. Owner… and you should let your employees know, very subtly, that you're opening and looking at it. Because it's a great deterrent.” CONNECT WITH TRACY COENENTracy Coenen, CPA, CFF of Sequence Inc. Forensic Accounting has spent more than 20 years investigating fraud. Her educational background includes an Honors Bachelor of Artsin Criminology and Law Studies and a Master of Business Administration, both from Marquette University. Tracy is a Certified Public Accountant and holds the designations Certified in Financial Forensics and Master Analyst in Financial Forensics.She has personally completed more than 400 forensic accounting engagements in a wide variety of industries, including cases of embezzlement, financial statement fraud, investment fraud, divorce, and insurance fraud. Tracy has also been named an expert witness in numerous cases involving damage calculations, commercial contract disputes, shareholder disputes and criminal defense, and has testified more than 75 times. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracycoenen/ Sequence Inc.: www.sequenceinc.com Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Don't equate the tech changes that are happening in the courts, like E-Filing and the incorporation of video calls, with your firm having to adopt all new legal tech to keep up with the times. While John D. Risvold likes the tech changes he sees in the legal system, he credits IP—his own pursuit of medical knowledge and expert support from family, friends, and his colleagues—for his practice's success. With a focus on strong IP, a server (or cloud drive) and Microsoft 365 is all your firm needs to be profitable. Even the office is optional. Key moments:The Collins Law Firm minimal tech setup (01:21)Examples of powerful IP at play in a law firm (06:31)Marketing techniques and tools (25:10)What John Risvold wants to see changed in the legal profession (41:20) MEMORABLE QUOTES“I haven't been in the office in three weeks, but 2020 was one of the most successful years the firm has had in the last decade. It's just a testament to everybody's pulling together and hard work and making the technology work too.”“We're still getting cases resolved because of the expertise of folks at the firm, and the history of the firm and it's experience.”“The way things are going, if you have a good laptop, a good internet connection and you know how use Word, Excel, and Outlook, you can run an entire practice. You don't need an office space. You don't need any of the fancy case management systems…. You really can run the whole thing from a laptop and Excel and Outlook.”“The pandemic [has] dragged our industry kicking and screaming from the mid-18th century to the present…. Carbon paper is such a hot commodity in Cook County that the judges have written their courtroom numbers on them and ‘Do not steal'….Hopefully, now that they've decided to do smart things like digital orders and PDF orders and email…we shouldn't be handwriting orders [any longer.]” CONNECT WITH JOHN RISVOLDJohn, a personal injury trial lawyer at The Collins Law Firm P.C., has dedicated his career to fighting those responsible for injuring his clients. He focuses his practice on traumatic brain injury, car and truck crashes, medical negligence, nursing home neglect, and catastrophic personal injury. He spends the majority of his practice helping victims of catastrophic injury obtain justice.Instagram: @johnrisvoldesqLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnrisvoldFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/RisvoldTrial/The Collins Law Firm: https://www.collinslaw.com/ KEEP READING:“Microsoft Excel 2016 Training for Lawyers: Using the Law Firm Project Tracker, Tutorial Lesson” TeachUComp, 12 Jan 2016https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emj30cFVBuc“Office 365 For Legal Case Management: How to Use Office 365 for Your Firm” Arrow Consultants, 3 July 2019https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR1qivK5HwA“LogMeIn Rescue Live Guide And Lastpass Named Winners In 2020 Best In Biz Awards” LogMeIn, 17 December 2020https://blog.logmeininc.com/logmein-rescue-live-guide-and-lastpass-named-winners-in-2020-best-in-biz-awards/Advitam IP focuses on hiring in strong IP when running their law firmhttps://ablog.amatacorp.com/blog/posts/while-lavish-law-office-space-is-nice-talent-tops-list-of-client-priorities/  Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com 

Faye is teaching female attorneys not to make the assumptions she did: that hard work is all it takes to be seen. Previously a lawyer working within the Canadian government, when her boss retired, her job retired too, which was a shock. She now runs Her Legal Global, an international community which empowers women in law through practical skill development and mentorship, in Canada and the United States. Key moments:· Faye's story (02:00)· Career successes, failures, and discovering yourself (16:50)· How Her Legal Global provides a new environment for female lawyers (25:10)· What Faye Gelb wants to see changed in the legal profession (31:36) MEMORABLE QUOTES“If I could go back, I would have been much more proactive and strategic about my development and my career.”“Back in March this year I went on to LinkedIn to network and I started talking to women…I realized that in the last almost 30 years since I was called, not a lot has changed, they face the same challenges…. I really thought: ‘What is it, why can't we have a better way… Why is it the same-old, same-old after this many years? We have all these different initiatives!'”“If you want to have pay equity, start negotiating from the beginning. So, how do you do that if you're timid or you've never been taught? Where do you get those skills? Who's going to teach you?”“We need to define success for ourselves and with law it becomes a ‘big picture' success, always. Most people see success in law as getting into law school, graduating law school, getting your first job, getting a certain pay rate, making a certain position in the firm, but every day we have success and if we only relate our achievements to these big goals then it sets us up for perfectionism. And to be crushed when things don't go [as planned].” CONNECT WITH FAYE GELBLawyer Faye Gelb is the founder of Her Legal Global, a private online community for women in law to empower their careers. Women have a shared experience in law that is consistent regardless of where they live or practice. Our community provides the space, expert information, mentors, and virtual coffees to support and help women overcome obstacles. We are strategic, proactive, and innovative in our approach. Love your career! Her Legal Global: https://www.herlegalglobal.com/ Faye's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fayegelb/ Her Legal Global on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/69240862/ OUR FAVORITE HER LEGAL GLOBAL BLOGS· Interviews with First Generation Lawyers on Success in Law https://www.herlegalglobal.com/first-generation-lawyers-on-succeeding-in-law/· Pivoting Your Legal Career https://www.herlegalglobal.com/9-tips-to-pivot-your-legal-career/· Becoming a Resilient Lawyer: What that Means, Why, and How! https://www.herlegalglobal.com/6-steps-to-being-a-more-resilient-lawyer/  Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Yes, this title is purposefully corny. Personal injury attorneys are often viewed advertising first, and not in a good way. Think ambulance chasers. Or “all ad spend, no customer service.” These firms do exist. When Sean Park markets though, it's through building referrals and word-of-mouth. He picks clientele with the same mindset as him; not those asking “how much is my case worth” but rather “how can I rebuild my life.” Key Moments:Behind the scenes of those big-ad-spend PI firms (07:07)Drawing in clients with marketing, not advertising (13:13)Technologies that help Sean manage a practice in multiple states (22:39)What Sean Park wants to see changed in the legal industry (30:10) MEMORABLE QUOTES“I've got good relationships with clients; [we] will text about politics, will text about college sports…. The end of the case is not the end of my relationship with that person or that family. It is merely the closure of one chapter and moving on to help them rebuild their life.”“I don't want cases where someone's calling me saying “what's my case worth” because that's not the motivation for why you're pursuing these claims. While I'm in business to make money, obviously, and for a livelihood, I do that by doing good work for clients and being very aggressive in the litigation side of things.”“I've looked at cases where other firms have turned [the clients] down…. Stories are compelling to me…I don't ever like telling someone “no” or turning them away without giving them at least a good thorough explanation as to why I turn the case down or giving them options as to how to pursue the case on their own or…obtain closure.” CONNECT WITH SEAN PARKSean Park is a skilled and caring personal injury attorney who uses a very personal approach to zealously advocate for clients who have been seriously injured or killed in car accidents, truck accidents, and medical malpractice casesThe Park Law Firm: www.seanparklaw.com Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Developing powerful SEO for your law firm doesn't mean catering to the robots at the cost of the human being. Attorneys can differentiate their practices, help people, and gain backlinks. Chris Dreyer explains SEO, new options for attorneys, and offers case examples of brand and law firm marketing that offer personality robots could never mimic. Quick answers to hot questions:What is SEO? (09:35)On-site SEO & Off-site SEO (11:46)What's working right now for law firm marketing (19:32)The 3 funnels of content explained (24:22)How long for SEO results (27:26)What Chris Dreyer sees for the future of legal marketing (40:25) MEMORABLE QUOTES“We were looking at different strategies to bring exposure to a firm, but also to acquire backlinks… We wanted to kind of be a win-win all-around approach and one of the things that we did was we would offer a scholarship to either a local community or nationwide….[Financial aid pages] would link back to the listing, not because they thought they were doing SEO but because it was good for the consumer.” “You first have to be able to at least know the basics and the foundation in order to evaluate if the SEO specialist you're working with is even doing a good job. And you need to be able to speak the same type of language and understand those KPIs and goals that everyone's striving for because SEO is not immediate like Google ads.” “It is the most challenging circumstance when [law firms] don't have something that's different. It makes it really hard for any type of marketing to have the extreme effectiveness that it could have.” CONNECT WITH CHRIS DREYERChris Dreyer is the President and Founder of Rankings.io, an agency that specializes in personal injury lawyer SEO. His agency ranks personal injury firms for the most lucrative keywords in your industry with end-to-end SEO, from content creation to technical optimization. “Most personal injury attorneys struggle to rank at the top of the search results. That's why I'm here: I help elite personal injury law firms generate motor vehicle and serious injury cases through Google's organic search results.” Chris DreyerLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisdreyerco/Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ KEEP READING"Fireproof: A Five-Step Model to Take Your Law Firm from Unpredictable to Wildly Profitable" Mike Morsehttps://www.amazon.com/Fireproof-Five-Step-Unpredictable-Wildly-Profitable-ebook/dp/B088X41PPP “The Tribes We Lead” Seth Godin; TED Talks (February 2009)https://www.ted.com/talks/seth_godin_the_tribes_we_lead “SEO for Lawyers” Chris Dreyer; Rankings.iohttps://rankings.io/seo-for-lawyers “The Ultimate Guide to Google's Local Service Ads” Mark Irvine; WordStream (13 January 2021)https://www.wordstream.com/blog/ws/2018/06/11/google-local-service-ads “YouTube Video Ads for Law Firms: Case Study & Results” Zahavian Legal Marketing https://www.zahavianlegalmarketing.com/youtube-ads-for-law-firms-case-study/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Family law is rife with emotion. Michelle Lawless kept that in mind when she built her solo family law practice, after a 19-year tenure at a successful Chicago family law firm. Balancing kindness with efficient processes, Michelle explains how technology, which is usually on the wrong side of the ‘good for mental health' equation, actually makes difficult family matters easier to emotionally handle. It's just a bonus that it keeps her solo venture moving full speed. Key moments:Attorney assisted mediation and collaborative law (05:16)Crafting a kind and effective intake process for family law clients (21:42)“The Daley Center is a daily education”: Building experience in family law (28:26)What Michelle Lawless wants to see changed in the legal profession (39:37) MEMORABLE QUOTES“[Mediation has] been a growing trend…. Clients want an alternative to litigation… Litigation is emotionally difficult. It can be protracted and inefficient [and] incredibly expensive.”“Clients have told me how difficult it was to almost get up the courage to walk into a divorce lawyer's office for a console. Because, physically, it was a manifestation that their marriage was over, and that that was a really difficult step to take…. [Because of this] I was kind of thinking about, ‘are there ways to do Virtual Counsel,' and then boom COVID hit.”“I'm using online forms to capture information that you need in every divorce case but you don't want to keep asking people for, like the names and the ages of their kids and the birth dates….Making things easier on clients was something that I was really looking to do.”“I always prided myself on providing personalized service, and being there for clients, listening to them. Getting back to them quickly, as quickly as I can…. As a solo I think that's even more critical because it's me. I mean, the business is me. So, I need to provide almost… I look at it like a better client experience. Because I am the client experience. A hundred percent.” CONNECT WITH MICHELLE LAWLESSMichelle has spent her entire 20-year career assisting high-net-worth individuals and their spouses by protecting and preserving their assets during divorce. After spending 19 years with one of the most prominent family law firms in the country, she opened her own law practice in 2020, where she is able to take her in-depth training and experience with executive compensation packages, valuations of closely-held businesses, and other complex, hard-to-value assets and income streams to her own practice.She is a graduate of the American Bar Association's Advanced Trial Advocacy Institute focusing exclusively on business valuations and has also been named one of the 10 Best Attorneys in Illinois for Outstanding Client Service by the American Institute of Family Law Attorney (2017-2019). Michelle is a past recipient of the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin's "40 Under 40" award and holds certifications in Collaborative Law and mediation.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellealawless/Michelle's Firm: www.malfamilylaw.com CONTINUE EXPLORING“Family Law Mediation: A Response to the Rising Pro Se Tide” FamilyLawyerMagazine.com; 8 November 2019 https://familylawyermagazine.com/articles/family-law-mediation-a-response-to-the-rising-pro-se-tide/“The Battlescars of Family Law” Michelle Lawless; 11 November 2020https://www.malfamilylaw.com/blog-2-2/p5lqojvv0fl1dmbm6jo1uw7oetdaai Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Platform tennis, golf, ironman competitions, fishing; no sport is safe in this conversation about marketing and building a book of business as a lawyer. Passionate about helping attorneys reach their full potential, Steve Fretzin is regarded as the premier coach and skills trainer on legal business development. Key moments:Making changes and taking chances as an attorney (03:57)Succeeding without running yourself crazy (12:35)Past-Present-Future of marketing for law firms (22:20)The Three Ps: Planning, Process, Performance (31:17)What Steve Fretzin wants to see changed in the legal profession (47:55) MEMORABLE QUOTES“I think the biggest misstep that's happening is lawyers are afraid to miss something, they're afraid to leave something out for fear that if they do, that they're going to miss out on the business. And the reality is that listing off five or ten things that you do, pretty much just falls on deaf ears.” “It's all about organization. And it's all about leveraging resources…. Whether it's work that you shouldn't be doing that you should be…handing over to associates, paralegals assistants, etc. or it's the idea that… you haven't made the proper hire, to be able to delegate and then go out and get more business.” “Into the simplest form: it's about having a great plan. Something that you can look at every day that you can execute on every week, that speaks to you. And it's the lowest hanging fruit. It's not about how many hours you put into it. It's about a plan that's focused and targeted, as well as having a tracking system, because as we talked about earlier, if you don't measure it, you can't manage it.” CONNECT WITH STEVE FRETZINOver the past 16 years, Steve Fretzin has devoted his career to helping law firms and lawyers master the art of legal business development to achieve their business goals and the peace of mind that comes with developing a successful law practice.In addition to writing three books on legal business development, Steve has been featured in the Chicago Tribune, Crain's, and Entrepreneur.com. He has appeared on NBC News, WGN Radio, and has written articles for Attorney at Law Magazine, the National Law Review, the American Bar Association, and the Illinois State Bar Association. You can also find his monthly column in the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin. You can also find his podcast show BE THAT LAWYER, where Steve interviews rainmakers and legal marketing experts. Fretzin, INC.: https://fretzin.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stevefretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinBe That Lawyer Podcast: https://fretzin.com/podcast/ KEEP READING:“Two Growing Trends In America: Platform Tennis And Legal Business Development” Be That Lawyer with Fretzin, 30 September 2020https://fretzin.com/two-growing-trends-in-america-platform-tennis-and-legal-business-development/ “The Bryson DeChambeau Effect: Ready or not, the game is about to change” Golfworld, 22 September 2020https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-bryson-dechambeau-effect-how-golf-is-about-to-change-us-open “Spanx founder Sara Blakely learned an important lesson about failure from her dad — now she's passing it on to her 4 kids” Business Insider, 17 July 2018https://www.businessinsider.com/spanx-founder-sara-blakely-redefine-failure-2016-10 After recording this episode, legal industry journalist Roy Strom posted an article also equating the legal profession to DeChambeau. Read his in-depth and well researched thoughts here: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business-and-practice/dechambeaus-big-miss-at-masters-is-lesson-in-successful-failure Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

It started as a means to an end. Now it's a passion filled career. Odell Mitchell III gives us a peak behind the curtain at life as an entertainment lawyer running his own firm, as a single father of two young girls, and as an African American man in the legal industry. Key moments:A glimpse into Entertainment Law (05:51)Juggling single fatherhood and running a law firm (22:43)Music and performance in the time of Covid-19 (27:17)Being African American in a creative industry versus legal industry at large (30:56) MEMORABLE QUOTES“For me as an African American male we usually cannot like look back and see a lot of our lineage – or it's harder to do. And so that's something I hold very dear to me. The fact that I have that. So, I've always tried to incorporate it somehow.”“As things have moved from more analog to more digital it has opened up so much more opportunity for artists and creatives alike…. There are more places where they could have control. But it also means there are more places for other entities to try to take back control.”“These days people want to like who they're working with. They want to feel like they have access to you. They want to feel like they can connect with you. And those things in a lot of ways are imperative [now], whereas they might have been ‘nice to have' not even that long ago.”“I'm certainly not shy about being a single parent. I don't think you can be…. I am fortunate that I am able, at this point to enlist the right level of support. I don't have a lot of people around me – I do most of it by myself – but I have a few trusted avenues…. I think it's really hard for single parents and it gets missed a lot there. Again, especially for women in the workforce.” CONNECT WITH ODELL MITCHELL IIIOdell practices in the heart of Chicago, IL. He earned a BM in Music Business and an independent study in graphic design from Millikin University. He earned his JD from IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law. Prior to founding Thirdinline Legal, Odell operated as a manager, recording engineer, producer and creative director. As a musician and visual artist himself, he understands the needs of the creative entrepreneur firsthand. With over 10 years of experience in the arts and entertainment industries, Odell is pleased to unite his passions of creativity and the law to provide excellent legal services to other entertainment, business, and creative professionals. Third in Line Legal: www.thirdinlinelegal.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/odellmitchelliii/Instagram: @odellcommaesqTwitter: @odellcommaesqEmail Odell Mitchell III: odell@thirdinlinelegal.com CONTINUE EXPLORING:“Billie Eilish's Virtual Concert Is the Rare Livestream Done Right” Rolling Stone, October 2020https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-live-reviews/billie-eilish-livestream-virtual-concert-1080748/“The Legal Take on the Taylor Swift Recording Dispute” Best Lawyers, December 2019https://www.bestlawyers.com/article/taylor-swift-recording-contract-controversy/2747“Tidal, Kanye West Face Class Action Lawsuit Over ‘The Life of Pablo'” Rolling Stone, April 2016https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/tidal-kanye-west-face-class-action-lawsuit-over-the-life-of-pablo-45213/ WHAT ODELL IS LISTENING TO:The Temptations “The Last Temptation” Rolling Stone, August 2018https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/the-last-temptation-2-707557/Bring Me the Horizon “Bring Me The Horizon announce new EP, featuring Babymetal and Amy Lee” NME, October 2020https://www.nme.com/en_asia/news/music/bring-me-the-horizon-new-album-october-30-2785630Shepherd “Shepherd's ‘Gametime' is the undoubted sports anthem of the year” Elite Sports NY, November 2019https://elitesportsny.com/2019/11/20/shepherd-gametime-is-undoubted-sports-anthem-of-year/Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Trisha Daho has a fun job, she helps attorneys become the people and leaders they want to be. But she also tackles big issues at firms. Like building real diversity and managing a law firm minorities thrive within. The road to partner is getting paved for women and diverse ethnicities, and Trisha is helping firms at every step. Key moments:Differentiating yourself from other law firms (05:46)Diversity and mentorship vs. sponsorship vs. advocacy (09:26)Running a firm? Do the things you want to do (18:35)What Trisha Daho wants to see changed in the legal professional (30:56) MEMORABLE QUOTES“I will tell you from my own personal experience, without an advocate for what you want your career path to be, that has some juice in the firm, it is extremely hard to accelerate any kind of career path up to equity partner and beyond into real leadership positions.”“Differentiating is honestly something that is almost never done. But once firms do it, they grow exponentially in comparison to their competitors…. Frankly, even the big boys, the giant law firms, are not doing a very good job of explaining to their most important targets and clients why they should choose one firm over another.”“Firms that actually have great levels of diversity and inclusion usually are experiencing results that are 17% to 25% better than they would if they had no diversity. So, there's a real there's a business case, why [diversity] is important.” CONNECT WITH TRISHA DAHOTrisha spent most of her career leading large, diverse teams toward the delivery of value for her clients at a Big 4 Accounting and Advisory firm, wherein she served as a partner.  She has been pivotal in the discovery and sustainability of value in the billions of dollars for her clients.  She has worked with executives and their teams in dozens of Fortune 500 companies in the majority of states.  She has also created enormous value for entrepreneurs, high growth companies, and aspiring start-ups.  She left the corporate arena to light up the world of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And hence, Empowered was born.With her own company, Trisha partners with C-suites and managing partners to think, plan, and execute strategically for the purpose of accelerated and sustainable growth, primarily in service-based firms. She also partners with firms of all types to create success for women and diverse people who are entering leadership positions through a diversity and inclusion peer advisory experience focused on strategy, high performing teams, and advocacy in leadership. Empowered helps organizations to create more diverse talent acquisition and development strategies, accountability and measurement in leader performance, and the development of more inclusive cultures where diverse people thrive.Empowered: www.empoweredlc.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trishadaho/ KEEP READING2nd Story: Well-crafted, well-told stories as a catalyst for changehttps://www.2ndstory.com/our-mission Trisha is starting a mastermind with AMATA Law Office Suites and Breakthrough Bound which begins February 2021! For more information email Trisha: trisha@empoweredlc.com Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Doug Church recently became a Legendary Lawyer at the Indiana Bar Foundation. An incredible honor with intensive qualifications for nominees, including a mandatory 50 years of practicing law. Doug takes us back in time and discusses what he's seen in law in the past five decades and offers the knowledge he's learned along the way. Key moments:50 years of practicing law: a journey into the past (1:58)Experiences on the Conner Prairie Board of Directors (22:22)What Douglas Church wants to see changed in the legal profession (31:07) MEMORABLE QUOTES“You need to take time for yourself, number one, because the law is a jealous mistress and you can find yourself working twelve, fourteen hours a day….It's important to try to make sure you don't let yourself become a slave to your practice.”“I've always operated under the theory that you got to be somewhere. So some people choose to be somewhere by sitting in their easy chair or watching TV, some people sit and read a book, I chose to just spend my time being involved with organizations that were advancing some cause that I felt strongly about.”“My dad always told me as a young person: ‘If you set out to make money you're going to be disappointed because there will never be enough.' You can set out to do a good job at whatever it is you're doing and money will follow, because people will appreciate your good work, whatever that may be. And I believe that that is true.” CONNECT WITH DOUG CHURCHDoug is the Senior Partner of Hamilton County based Church Church Hittle + Antrim law firm which was founded in 1880.  He has been actively involved with the Hamilton County, Indiana State and American Bar Association serving in various leadership positions.  He served as the Noblesville City attorney from 1987-1995 and the Town of Fishers attorney from 1980- 2014.  Doug was instrumental in the development of the Hamilton County Leadership Academy serving as a Faculty Member and Dean (1992) and as Board President (1996-98).  He has also been actively involved with Conner Prairie as the Chairperson, 1999-2001 and Member, Board of Trustees, 1997, 2003.  He currently serves as an Emeritus Member of the Museum Board of Trustees.  Doug has also served on a number of other Hamilton County organizations' Boards of Directors.  Doug is an avid swimmer and promoter of the sport. Church Church Hittle + Antrim: www.cchalaw.com KEEP READING“A Hamilton County community champion: Legendary Lawyer Douglas Church” Marilyn Odendahl; The Indiana Lawyer (28 Oct. 2020)https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/a-hamilton-county-community-champion-legendary-lawyer-douglas-church“I'm Billing Time” Music Parodyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFVtkpsWCn4Conner Prairie: A living history museum in unincorporated south-central Hamilton County, Indianahttps://www.connerprairie.org/Civics Education program “We the People: The Citizen and the Constitution” from the Indiana Bar Foundationhttps://inbf.org/Educational-Programs/We-The-People“Importance of Jury Trials” Informational Sheets to share and educate; The National Judicial College2 Page Info Sheet: https://www.judges.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Why-Jury-Trials-are-Important-to-a-Democratic-Society.pdfPresentation Slides: https://www.judges.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Importance-of-Jury-Trials.pdf“Jury Trials Aren't What They Used to Be” Randall T. Shepard; Indiana Law Review, Vol. 38:859 (p. 859-866)https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/ilr/pdf/vol38p859.pdf Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

You could say Daniel A. Cotter has had an accomplished 26 years so far as an attorney. He's worked in-house and as outside counsel, taught Insurance Law at the John Marshall Law School, published a book about the Chief Justices, been an Illinois Leading Lawyer and Super Lawyer for four years, and he is active in the Chicago Bar Association and American Bar Association alike. But Dan also makes sure to mention his son benches more than him, the kid he tutors has more intensive math skills, and his marriage is 31 years strong. If you pay attention, life has a way of rounding you out, even as a busy attorney. Key moments:Cybersecurity and insurance insights, from an Insurance Law professor (07:35)Technology discrepancies in small firms versus Big Law (16:59)“The Chief Justices,” meeting RBG, and charity work (25:58)What Daniel Cotter wants to see changed in the legal profession (38:54) MEMORABLE QUOTES“Companies need to think through ‘what's the ramifications of having all of our people work from home?' Right, ‘is it our responsibility if something happens to Dan Cotter while he's at his house,' or you know, does he need to look at his own insurance policy and does he need to notify his insurance company that he's working from home?”“I've seen programs that talk about artificial intelligence and how it frees up the attorney and, you know, it's great, and then the cost is prohibitive for many [private practice attorneys]….Their needs can't be met because the cost is so prohibitive.”“I'm a big proponent of belonging to the bar association of your choice. Whether it's the state bar or the city bar, an affinity bar. I just find that bar membership has been rewarding… and I can say that it's probably provided me with work over the years.”“I am passionate about the law, and optimistic, but also concerned about the challenges, especially for graduates. In the last decade, it's been a tough road with a major recession in 2008 and then 2013 again. And now the pandemic.” CONNECT WITH DANIEL COTTERDaniel A. Cotter is Attorney and Counselor at Howard & Howard Attorneys PLLC. Dan focuses his practices in a variety of areas of corporate law and litigation, including insurance law, complex business disputes and counseling, employment law, corporate transactions, corporate governance and compliance, and cybersecurity and privacy law. His clients benefit from his diverse professional experience, which – in addition to his years serving as trusted outside counsel – includes positions as a corporate accountant and an in-house attorney. Dan has been working in cyber and privacy since the late 1990s, before cyber was a thing.Twitter: @scotusbiosFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SCOTUSlyYoursLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cotterdan/Howard & Howard: www.howardandhoward.com CONTINUE EXPLORING“The coasts are alive with the sound of privacy enforcement” Daniel A. Cotter Chicago Daily Law Bulletinhttps://howardandhoward.com/user_area/pdf/CDLB_Cotter_Coasts%20Alive%20with%20Sound%20of%20Privacy%20Enforcement_8-24-20.pdf“The Chief Justices: The Seventeen Men at the Center Seat, Their Courts, and Their Times” Daniel A. Cotter Twelve Tables Presshttps://www.amazon.com/Chief-Justices-Daniel-Cotter/dp/194607425XLawyers Lend-a-Hand to Youthhttps://www.lawyerslendahand.org/ If you're interested in getting involved with Lawyers Lend-A-Hand, or simply want to connect, reach out to Dan at DAC@h2law.com!Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Few attorneys build their law firm against the billable hour. Mellisa Grisel is one of those. Atlas Legal Services, LLC, was made to offer flat fee “unbundled” legal services and provide affordable assistance to the under-represented. A set-up that not only helps the average citizen navigate through legal processes but, she argues, will be a huge component in the future of law. Key moments:“Unbundled” legal services explained and why they work (04:16)How new service concepts play out in a real-life firm (16:26)Technology's role in the “unbundled” service setup (21:57)What Mellisa Grisel wants to see changed in the legal profession (30:32) MEMORABLE QUOTES“I didn't really have other business models to work off of [when setting up my firm] so I had to do a lot of trial and error. But then you'll see bigger firms who have the funds to do faster trial and error. They are moving some of their practice to flat fee services and they're really starting to follow the money.”“[Lawyers] don't have to just be the hammer in the courtroom. They can the facilitator…. besides moving towards flat fees, I think it's awesome moving towards collaborative law.”“The entire frame of legal services, the provision of legal services, needs to change to provide access to justice.”“I've had judges personally thank me for taking on clients on a limited scope basis because the judges couldn't tell the litigants ‘hey, you need to bring me all your evidence tomorrow, get your bank statements in line.' They can't give that person advice.” CONNECT WITH MELLISA GRISELMellisa Grisel began her firm, Atlas Legal Services, LLC., right out of law school because she wanted an innovative way to provide legal services to people who may not have gotten legal assistance otherwise. Atlas is able to provide à la carte (otherwise known as “Unbundled”) legal services to people who may only need or may only be able to afford certain steps in their legal case.This way of providing service is ideal for people with family law cases like divorce, child custody, adoption, litigation regarding unpaid bills, services that were never performed, personal property, and also landlord-tenant law. Atlas is quite literally designed to help small landlords who need help with a tenant - be it collecting unpaid rent, drawing up a lease that complies with local laws, or if it comes to it, eviction. Atlas Legal Services: www.atlaslegalservices.comCall Mellisa Grisel: 312-291-4643 LEARN MORE“Limited Scope Representation Toolkit” The Chicago Bar Foundationhttp://chicagobarfoundation.org/pdf/resources/limited-scope-representation/toolkit.pdf“The Law Shop has a cutting-edge way of providing legal services” Des Moines Momhttps://desmoines.momcollective.com/the-law-shop-has-a-cutting-edge-way-of-offering-legal-services/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Kendra never envisioned herself becoming a lawyer, per se. Like becoming a minister, earning her J.D. and opening her law firm became a way to drive positive change within minority communities – improving access to justice as an agent inside the system. Recently, Kendra also launched The Justice Renewal Initiative, a faith-based non-profit also supporting her singular goal through alternative methods. Key moments:Conception and struggles for a firm built to bridge the Justice Gap (1:00)The Justice Renewal Initiative's three focuses for change (10:45)Case Study: A man stuck in the broken criminal justice system (14:18)What Kendra Spearman wants to see changed in law (35:43) MEMORABLE QUOTES“The bar exam poses a major impediment [to more minorities becoming attorneys]…everything that it asks is stuff that you can kind of look up, it's not a test about intelligence, but some people just don't do well with tests.”“What I hope to do through the Justice Renewal Initiative is bring all backgrounds together. All private citizens: I want judges, police officers – and that's a group that tends to be excluded because of the mistrust – private citizens of the church…. People tend to ignore an issue if it does not affect them. So, I wanted to create this space where everybody could feel like they're involved.”“The other uncomfortable thing for me in that setting is that black women tend to have this stereotype that we're angry… And I'm pretty confident that had I not lost my temper, that my client would have been taken into custody, and from what I was hearing from the different numbers that they were throwing out, we're talking about years.”“One of the main things I tell people is to talk about it. People look at racism and systemic racism and these issues as, you know, the awkward conversation to have.” CONNECT WITH KENDRA SPEARMANKendra is a civil rights attorney and minister. She is the owner and founder of Spearman Law LLC, a civil rights law firm, and founder of The Justice Renewal Initiative, Inc., a faith-based, non-profit that is dedicated to criminal justice reform. She works diligently to fight injustice on the behalf of disadvantaged populations, in particular, those impacted by mass incarceration and racial disparities. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/preacherlawyer/Twitter: https://twitter.com/kendraspearmanLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/spearmanlaw/Spearman Law: www.spearmanlaw.comJustice Renewal Initiative: www.thejri.org ADDITIONAL READING“13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Abolition of Slavery (1865)” Our Documentshttps://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=40“Common Interpretation: The 13th Amendment” National Constitution Centerhttps://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/interpretation/amendment-xiii/interps/137“School-to-Prison Pipeline” American Civil Liberties Unionhttps://www.aclu.org/issues/juvenile-justice/school-prison-pipeline“The School-to-Prison Pipeline” Teaching Tolerance (Issue 32; Spring 2013)https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/spring-2013/the-school-to-prison-pipeline“Dismantling the School to Prison Pipeline” NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc. https://www.naacpldf.org/wp-content/uploads/Dismantling_the_School_to_Prison_Pipeline__Criminal-Justice__.pdf“Camden's Turn: A Story of Police Reform in Progress” Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS), U.S. Department of Justice (US DOJ); Not In Our Townhttps://cops.usdoj.gov/RIC/Publications/cops-p366-pub.pdf“Former Chief Of Reformed Camden, N.J., Force: Police Need 'Consent Of The People'” NPRhttps://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/08/872416644/former-chief-of-reformed-camden-n-j-force-police-need-consent-of-the-peopleInjustice Watch – Cook County option for Judicial informationhttps://www.injusticewatch.org/ Kendra, and The Justice Renewal Initiative, was featured in Chicago Lawyer! Read the full article: https://ablog.amatacorp.com/blog/posts/rearranged-as-covid-19-drags-on-law-firms-assess-their-largely-empty-offices/Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

Clinton Ind chose a vastly different route in practicing law compared to his wife: he is a solo attorney turned in-house counsel, while she has worked at a large, international firm. However, how they found their paths, he explains, is the same: self-awareness and asking yourself ‘what's your greatest attribute as a lawyer.'Key moments:· Large vs. mid vs. solo – finding your niche and support network (3:25)· Moving from solo to in-house counsel (11:42)· Fair billing; it's not about billable hour versus fixed fee (17:57)· What Clinton Ind wants to see changed in law (32:53) MEMORABLE QUOTES“It's interesting because the law is the same. The scale is obviously different, but the law is always the same…. [My wife and I] are self-aware enough to know our personalities; her personality works for a firm like that, [a large firm], and mine never did.”“You're always learning something new [while practicing law], and that can be intimidating…You can overcome the intimidation of trying new things by creating a network of attorneys that you can speak with and associate with.”“I've taken issue with opposing counsel who probably do things that don't necessarily need to be done…. One of my biggest pitches to prospective clients was always ‘I'm going to keep your business objectives in mind, and we don't necessarily need to write this 30-page brief to get the point across.”ABOUT CLINTON INDClinton recently has recently transitioned his practice from a commercial litigator with his own law firm, to in-house counsel with a growing distribution business at Quantum Polymers. His new role is oriented around managing risk as the company expands while assisting with the business strategy and growth. Quantum Polymers: www.quantumpolymers.comADDITIONAL READING· “The Prevalence of Substance Use and Other Mental Health Concerns Among American Attorneys” Journal of Addiction Medicine https://journals.lww.com/journaladdictionmedicine/Fulltext/2016/02000/The_Prevalence_of_Substance_Use_and_Other_Mental.8.aspx Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

How do you build a powerful firm? Take Advitam IP as an example – a firm that started with a blank page, then thought so divergently they decided to just throw paper away entirely. Now, eight years running, embracing the pivot and always keeping cost in mind has made their firm thrive.Key moments:Why you should begin with a blank page (5:07)How firms can meet client billing rate expectations (13:14)Choosing a branded name versus a last name for your firm (24:35)The importance of change in a successful firm (28:20)What Richard Gurak wants to see changed in law (32:53)MEMORABLE QUOTES“Frankly, from the AM Law 100 firm that we were leaving, we gave up nothing. In fact, I've joked with Michele, that I actually think that our tech capabilities are better.”“It never fades, the happiness I feel when I get referrals, because I always tell myself okay you must be doing something right.”“It takes time to change. It takes money, sometimes, to change. But in order to stay on top of your game – not only in the legal business but in any business – you have to adapt.”CONNECT WITH RICHARD GURAKRichard Gurak is a Founding Partner of Intellectual Property firm Advitam IP, LLC (2012) where he represents individuals and companies of all sizes across five continents. Mr. Gurak has authored articles on legal issues relating to trademark and domain name, appearing in numerous publications, and lectures regularly on intellectual property matters.An active networker and philanthropist, he participates in and/or is a member of the International Trademark Association, The Union League Club Chicago, and a Lifetime Member of the Natural Register of Who's Who. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardgurak/ Advitam IP: https://advitamip.com/KEEP EXPLORINGAdvitam IP's Annual IP Conference Event “IP Junkies” https://www.facebook.com/IPJunkies/Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

It's our first episode and the Honorable Erika Orr helped us launch with a bang. Determining what you want and then asking for it is a key driver of personal success and greater social change. Erika's insights as woman on a journey to becoming a judge – owning her own firm, working in corporate, and tackling motherhood – prove this over and over. Key moments:Hanging up her own shingle after the 2008 recession (8:40)Conflicts for women developing career and family in America (10:13)Asking for what you want (15:05)What Erika Orr wants to see changed in law (19:06) MEMORABLE QUOTES“Part of [bridging the pay gap] is making sure women know they can make the ask, don't be afraid to make the ask…. Even as a child I was empowered to speak my piece.”“At some point [we're going to have to] asses what our value system is around the working family…. There's a cost factor to it but cost really is associated with whatever your value system is. It's not an expensive proposition if certain things are important to you. We as a country are going to have to make a determination about what it is we want.”“We need more people to dive deep and not be afraid to ask the questions of themselves.”CONNECT WITH ERIKA ORRErika Orr is currently a full circuit Cook County judge where she is seated in the Domestic Violence Division. Prior to that, Erika was a solo practitioner and owner of the Orr Law Group, Ltd. in Chicago, where she specialized in domestic relations law. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/erika.orr LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erika-orr-4a55971a/ Cook County Court, Judges Pages: http://www.cookcountycourt.org/Judges-Pages/Orr-ErikaFURTHER READING“Visible Invisibility: Women of Color in Law Firms” ABA Commission on Women in the Profession https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/women/visibleinvisibility.pdf“PF2.1. Parental leave systems” Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/PF2_1_Parental_leave_systems.pdfWhite Fragility: Why It's So Hard For White People To Talk About Racism by Robin Diangelo https://www.robindiangelo.com/publications/ Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com

If you're a lawyer, you're familiar with the ABA article “The 1958 Lawyer and his 1938 Dollar” which gives our podcast its title, and its inspiration. That article was the start of the billable hour for law firms...And the last major change to the business of law, 70+ years ago now. Well, it's past time for another change.  This podcast is all about bucking the status quo of the business of law. Your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield run Amata Law Office Suites, providing law firms an alternative to the traditional fixed-cost business model that places unwanted stress on attorneys to work long hours that often-times lead to burn out, broken relationships and in many cases substance abuse. Each week they'll discuss alternatives to the 12 hours days, endless rotation of clerks and paralegals, and the expensive offices leased to impress clients who rarely show up in person anymore. They'll interview successful lawyers who are doing law differently, and finding a work-life balance while still running a successful firm.  Do you want to find a better way to run your law firm? It's time for the next big change in the business of law, and you'll get it here every week on The 1958 Lawyer.   Contact Ron and Kirsten:Website: https://amatacorp.com/Ron on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronbockstahler/Kirsten on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirsten-mayfield-b8181a103/Amata LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/amata-law-office-suites/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AmataOfficeCenters/Twitter: https://twitter.com/amataofficesEmail: feedback@1958lawyer.com